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COMPLETE    COLLECTION 

OF 

State  Trials 


AND 

PROCEEDINGS   FOR   HIGH   TREASON   AND   OTHEai 

CRIMES  AND  MISDEMEANORS 

FROM  THE 

EARLIEST  PERIOD  TO  THE  YEAR  1783, 

« 

WITH  KOTES  AXD  OTHER  ILLUSTRATIONS: 

0OMPIL£I)  BY 

T.  B.   HOWELL,  Esq.  F.R.S.  F.S.A. 

-^  INCLUDING, 

IN   ADDITION   TO   THE   WHOLE  OF  THE   MATTER  CONTAINED   IN   THE 

I 

FOLIO   EDITION  OF  HARGRAVE, 

WPWAIBLDS    OF   TWO    HUNDRED    CASES    X  EVER    BEFORE    COLLECTED; 

TO   WHICH   IS   SUBJOINED 

A  Table  of  Parallel  Reference, 

EIBDEBIIIO   THIS  EDITION   APPLICABLE   TO   THOSE  BOOKS   OF   AUTHORITY   IN 
WHICH   REFERENCES  ARE   MADE  TO   THE   FOLIO    EDITION. 


IN    TWENTY-ONE   VOLUMES. 

VOL.    XXL 

18—19  GEORGE  lU 1778—1779. 


LONDON: 

Vrwud  by  7.  C.  Hmuard,  Peterborviigk-Cwrt^  FUetStreet : 

LONGMAN,  HURST,  R££S,  ORME,  and  BROWN ;  J.  M.  RICHARDSON ; 
BLACK,  PARBURY,  anb  ALLEN;  BALDWIN,  CRADOCK,  akd  JOY; 
£.  JEFFERY;  J.  HATOBbARD;  R.  H.  EVANS;  J.  BOOKER;  £.  LLOYD; 
J.  J300TU;  BUDD  aAd  CALKIN;  AND  T.  C.  HANSARD. 

1816. 


UBRAffYOFTHE 
AUG  27  1900 


TABLE   OF  CONTENTS 


TO 

VOLUME  XXI. 


REIGN  OF  KING  GEORGE  THE  THIRD. 

KB.  The  Case  of  the  ROYAL  HOSPITAL  for  SEAMEN  at 
GREENWICH,  in  relation  to  alleged  Mismanagement  and 
Abuses  therein;  and  Proceedings  against  Captain  THOMAS 
BAILLIE,  Lieutenant-Governor  of  the  said  Hospital,  under 
a  Prosecution  for  a  Libel  upon  certain  other  Officers  of  the  6ame« 

A.  D.  1778-1779  : 1 

fond  wk  Addenda.) 

563.  The  Proceedings  at  large  on  the  Trial  of  GEORGE  GORDON, 

esq.  commonly  called  Lord  GEORGE  GORDON,  for   High 
Treason,  in  the  Court  of  King*s-Bench,  Westminster,  a.  d,  1781      485 
(and  vide  Addenda.) 

4 

564.  The  Trial  of  FRANCIS  HENRY  DE  LA  MOTTE,   for  High 

Treason,  a.  d.  1781 687 

« 

565.  The  Trial  of  DAVID  TYRIE,  for  High  Treason,  at  the  Assizes  at 

Wmchester,  a.d.  1782  815 

566-  The  whole  Proceedings  on  an  Indictment  in  the  Case  of  the  KING, 
on  the  Prosecution  of  WILLIAM  JONES,  gent,  against  tlie  Rer. 
WILLIAM  DAVIES  SHIPLEY,  Dean  of  St.  Asaph,  for  a 
Seditious  Libel,  at  the  Great  Session  held  at  Wrexham,  for  the 

< 

County  of  Denbigh,  at  the  Assizes  for  the  County  of  Salop,  and 

in  the  Court  of  King's-Bench  at  Westminster,  a.  d.  1783-1784...    847 

667.  Proceedings  against  GEORGE  STRATTON,  HENRY  BROOKE, 
CHARLES  FLOYER,  and  GEORGE  MACKAY,  es^rs.  on  an 


TABLE  OF  CONTENTS. 

Infonnation  filed  against  them,  by  his  Majesty's  Attorney  Gene- 
ral, for  a  Misdemeanor,  in  arresting,  imprisoning,  and  deposing 
Greorge  Lord  Pigot,  Commander  in  Chief  of  the  Forces  in  Fort 
St.  George,  and  President  and  Governor  of  the  P&*esrdency  and 
Settlement  of  Madras,  in  the  East  Indies,  a.  d.  1779-1780. 
[Never  before  published]  ...•• 1045 


r 


ADDENDA. 


I.     lb  the  Case  of  Captain  Baillix. 

« In  the  Will  of  John  Barnard^  (son  to  the  late  patriotic  sir  John  Barnard,  many 
years  &ther  of  the  city  of  London)  late  of  the  Parish  of  St.  George,  Hanover-Square,  in 
the  county  of  Middlesex,  esquire,  deceased,  dated  the  6th  of  November,  1779,  among 
other  things  therein  contained^  is  as  follows :  '  I  give  to  captain  Thomas  Baillie^  late 
'  deputy-governor  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  five  hundred  pounds,  as  a  small  token  of  my 

*  approbation  of  his  worthy  and  disinterested,  though  ineffectual,  endeavours  to  rescue 

*  that  noble  national  chanty  from  the  rapacious  hands  of  the  basest  and  most  wicked  of 

*  mankind.'"    New  Annual  Register  for  1764  (Principal  Occurrences,  p.  97.) 

II.     To  the  Case  of  Lord  Georqe  Gordon. 

liord  George  Gordon  published  a  curious  (and,  as  \  have  reason  to  believe,  a  true) 
account  of  some  of  his  strange  proceedings  connected  with  the  transactions  out  of  which 
this  Trial  arose.  The  title  of  his  publicaUon  was,  ''  Innocence  Vindicated,  and  the 
Intrigues  of  Popeiy  and  its  Abettors  displayed  in  an  Authentic  Narrative  of  some 
transactions,  hiUierto  unknown,  rektting  to  a  late  Act  of  the  Britbh  Legislature  in 
fiivour  of  English  Frists,  and  the  Petiticm  presented  to  Parliament  for  its  Repeal.'' 

In  this  case  of  Lord  George  Gordon  were  first  exercised  the  privileges  granted  by 
Stat  7  Ann.  c.  21,  to  persons  indicted  for  High  Treason.  See  East's  Pleas  of  tiie  Crown, 
chap,  d,  sect,  4S ;  and  p.  648  of  this  volume. 

III.     To  the  Case  of  the  Dean  of  St.  Asaph. 

Of  the  Richmond  Park  business  mentioned  p.  858,  see  Vol.  SO,  p.  1389,  and  else- 
where. 


PARLIAMENTARY  WORKS. 
n^HE  PARLIAMENTARY  DEBATES,  FROM 

-■■  THE  YEAR  IB03  DOWN  TO  THE  PRESENT  TIME  j 
feimiog  a  CoDtinu4tion  of  the  Work  entitled,  **  The  PAR- 
LIAMENTARY HISTORY  OP  Emglakd,  from  the  earliest 
Period  to  the  Year  1803,"  publithed  under  the  Saperintendenee 
of  T.  C  HANSAIip. 

The  Sttbacribert  are  informed  that  Volume  XXVIl.  of  the 
above  Work,  comprising  the  Debates  in  both  Houses  from  the 
Opening  of  the  Session,  November  4,  1813,  to  June  6,  1814, 
may  be  had  of  their  respective  Booksellen.— Ptfter^p*  Courtp 
t^ltt  Auguti  IBU. 

^i^"*  Complete  Sets  of  the  Work,  in  97  Volumes,  may  be 
had.  The  Debates  of  the  present  Session  will  be  completed 
as  speedily  as  possible  ;  ail  CommmiicationB  forwarded  to  Mr. 
T.  C  Hansard  will  be  attended  tOi 

npHE  PARLIAMENTARY  HISTORY  or  ENG- 

^  LAND,  from*  the  Earliest  Period  to  the  Year  1803,  from, 
which  last  mentioned  epoch  it  is  continued  downwards  to  the 
present  time  in  the  Woric  entitled,  *'  The  PARLIAMENTARY 
DEBATES,"  pablished  under  the  Superintendence  of  T.  C. 
HANSARD. 

The  Twenty-Second  Volume  is  ready  for  delivery,  bringing 
the  Parliamentary  History  of  England  down  to  May  1*788. 

Printed  for  Longman,  Hant,'naes,  Ormey  and  Brown;  J. 
Richardson;  Black,  Parry,  and  Co.;  J.  Hatcbard;  J.  Ridg- 
way;  E.  Jeffiery;  J,  Booker;  J.  Rodwell;  Cradock  and  Joy; 
lUH. Evans  jBudd and  Calkin;  J.Bootb;  and T. C. HamanL 


A    COMPLETE    COLLECTION 


OF 


STATE    TRIALS. 


\_    W      '_- 


m»m»^m 


ihto-^B>^MHMbMMMli*i 


5G2.  The  CikSE  of  the  Royal  Hospital  for  Seamen  at  Greenwich^  ia 
relation  to  alleged  Mismanagement  ^and  Abuses  thereof;  and 
of  Captain  Thomas  Bailue^  Lieutenant^overnor  of  the  said 
Hospital^  under  a  Prosecution  for  a  Libel  upon  certain  other 
Officers  of  the  san»e :  18  &  19  George  III-  a.  d.  1778,  1779.* 


{The  following  particulars  I  have  extracted 
from  Captain  Baillie's  **  Introduction  to  the 
Procecdmgs  in  the  Court  of  King's-bench," 

Captain  BaiUie  prepared  and  caused  to  be 

Sinted,  a  book  entitled,  <<Thc  Case  and 
emoriai  of  the  Royal  Hospital  for  Sea- 
men at  Greenwich,  Addressed  to  the  Go- 
vernors and  Commissioners  thereof.*'  The 
« Case"  I  have  not  seen.  It  was  not  in- 
serted in  captain  Baillie's  '*  Solemn  Ap- 
peal," *•  because,"  as  he  states,  "  it  might 
create  fresh  disputes,  is  ver^  long,  and  the 
ereater  part  recapitulated  in  the  KingV 
Eench  and  House  of  Lords."  The  Memo- 
rial he  exhibits  as  follows : 

'  Bxttmeted  from  "  A  Solemn  Appeal  to  the  Pnb- 

lie,  from  an  iojured  Officer,  Cftptain  Bailtie,  late 

lieateaaDt    CSovernor  of  the  Rojal    Hoipital  for 

Seamen  at  Greenwich ;  arising  out  of  a  series  of  aa- 

theslic  Proceedittga  in  the  Coart  of  Ring't- bench  on 

mx  Praaecationa  against  him,  for  publiaiiing  certain 

liMft  (aa  it  ams  allcf^)  in  a  printed  '.<»<tk,  entitled, 

Tlie  Case  and  Memorial  of  Greenwic'.    <»jipita],  ad- 

-dressed  to  the  General  Qovemoni,  in  bei  -Jf  of  Dia- 

abJed  Seamen,  Widows,  and  Children ;   aod  the  Evi- 

deoee  giren  on  the  subeeqaent  Bnqnirj  at  Ibe  bar  of 

the  Hooae  of  Lords,  in  conseqaenco  of  the  sereral 

Prosecatioas  bdng  discharged  wilh  Coats.  -  London : 

Printed  for  Captain  Baillio  by  JF.  Almon,  opposite 

BaHing^on-hoose,  PSocadillj  ;   and  may  also  he  had 

of  Captain  Baillie,  at  Mr.  Roberts,  ohioa-man,  near 

Hatton  street,  Holtwm.    Price  two  g^aincas,  stitched 

in  sheets,  with  a  fine  eag^raring  of  captain  -Baillie,  in 

measotiato,  by  Janm  Wation/esq.  painted  by  Na- 

thaniei  Mooe,  esq.  of  the  Royal  Academy,  or  aepa- 

lale/j,  QWi  ^lUDM  Moh.     1779.*' 

VOL.  XXI. 


To  the  Commissioners  and  Governors  of  the 
Royal  Hospital  for  Seamen*  at  Greenwich, 

The  Memorial  of  Captain  Thomas  Bailliei 
Lieutenant  Governor  of  the  said  Hos* 
pital,  in  behalf  of  Disabled  Seamen, 
their  Wiapws  and  Children, 

Humbly  sheweth ; 

That  through  the  various  abuses  set  forth  in 
the  Case  prefixed,  the  British  navy  has 
been  deprived  of  the  full  benefit  of  this 
wise  and  munificent  establishment^  which 
the  generosity  of  princes,  and  the  grati* 
tude  of  the  public,  had  bestowed. 

That  landmen  have  been  introduced  into  the 
Hospital,  contrary  to  the  charter  and  ta 
the  spirit  of  the  institution;  and  that  some 
of  the  principal  wards  have  been  torn  down, 
and  converted,  at  a  great  cxpence,  into 
grand  apartments  for  omcers,  clerks,  depu<* 
ties  and  servants,  who  are  not  seamen. 

That  several  thousand  pounds  are  annually 
expended  in  repairs  and  alterations,  under 
the  pretext  of  nnishing  or  carrying  on  the 
building,  though  it  is  already  sufficiently 
grand,  roomy  and  convenient. 

That  the  settled  and  ample  revenues  of  the 
Hospital  being  wastea  by  this  and  other 
improper  means,  the  present  managers, 
sheltering  themselves  under  the  popular 
character  of  the  poor  defenceless  men 
under  their  care,  make  frequent  applica- 
tion to  parliament  for  the  public  money, 
which  they  squander  in  a  manner  that  has 
no  tendency  to  promote  the  welfare  of  th€ 
pensioners  or  ot  the  sea-service. 
B 


S] 


18  GEORGE  in. 


The  Cate  ofCajfidn  Thouuu  BaSlte, 


t* 


That  tlie  pensioners  are  fed  with  bull-bee/,  < 
and  sour -small  beer  mixed  with  water. 

That  the  contracting  butcher,  after  having 
been  convicted  in  a  public  court  of  justice 
(the  King*s-bench)  of  various  fraudulent 
breaches  of  his  contract,  was,  on  a  second 
prosecution,  suffered  to  compound  the  pe- 
nalties, and  renew  the  contract :  and  tnat 
many  evident  and  injurious  abuses  in  the 
supply  of  other  necessaries  are  daily  suffer- 
ed without  any  due  enquiry. 

That  under  pretence  of  raisins  a  charity  stock 
for  the  boys  in  the  Hospital,  the  pensioners 
are  deprived  of  at  least  2,500/.  per  annum 
out  of  their  frugal  allowance  of  provisions, 
&c.  settled  at  the  first  establishment,  and 
are  compelled  to  accept  of  a  part  of  the 
value  in  money;  which  causes  frequent 
drunkenness,  irregularity  and  disobedience. 

That  these  enormous  abuses  are  the  effects 
of  the  total  subversion  which  the  due  go- 
vernment of  the  Hospital  has  imdergonc, 
arising  from  the  inattention  of  the  great 
and  respeciable  characters  who  were  ap- 
pointed its  perpetual  ^^uacrdians :  and  that 
the  acting  directors,  being  in  general  con- 
cerned in  the  receipt  and  expenditure  of 
tlie  revenues,  are  therefore  improperly  en- 
trusted with  the  care  of  controuling  the 
accounts,  and  of  directing  the  affairs  of  the 
Hospital;  yet  that  these  men  have,  by 
.successive  encroachments,  extended  the 
proper  powers  of  the  board  of  directors, 
andf  taken  upon  them  a  great  part  of  the 
government  of  the  house,  in  tne  exercise 
-of  which  they  are  deaf  to  every  expostular 
tion  or  complaint,  however  reasonable  in 
itself,  or  regularly  urged. 

That  a  faction,  under  the  title  of  the  Civil  In- 
terest, is  maintained  in  the  Hospital,  which 
consists  of  such  officers,  under  officers,  de- 
puties, clerks  and  servants,  as  are  not  sea- 
laring  men,  and  who  are  therefore  illegally 
apppinted;  which  faction  has  kept  the 
Hospital  in  a  state  of  confusion  and  disorder 
for  several  years :  and  there  is  no  pretence 
of  right  or  necessity  for  their  continuing  in 
offices  to  which  seamen  alone  have  any 
flaim,  there  being  many  brave  men  fully 
qualified  to  execute  the  business  of  these 
offices,  who,  afler  having  fought  the  battles 
of  their  country,  are  now  in  a  state  of  po- 
verty and  want 

That,  independent  of  the  obvious  reflections 
suggested  by  justice  and  humanity  on  this 
occasion,  the  manner  in  which  the  pen- 
sioners are  supported  in  Greenwich  Hospi- 
tal is  a  material  subject  of  political  consi- 
deration; particularly  at  this  interesting 
period,  when  the  endeavours  to  obtain  vo- 
lunteers  for  the   navy  are  unsuccessful. 

,  Were  a  residence  in  tlie  Hospital  consi- 
dered by  seamen  in  general  as  a  desirable 
object,  it  would  have  an  evident  tendency 
to  lessen  their  reluctance  for  his  majesty^s 
service,  as  the  loss  of  temporary  advan- 
tages, or  the  dread  of  approaching  hard- 


ships, can  only  be  balanced  by  the  hope  of 
spending  a  comfortable  old.  age.  Now, 
tne  Hospital  is  so  far  fi?om  answering  this 
valuable  purpose  at  present,  that  it  is  men- 
tioned among  seamen  with  disgust  and 
dissatisfaction. 

Till  some  effectual  means  are  taken  to  re- 
move this  opinion,  the  material  object  of 
the  foundation  is  entirely  subverted,  and 
the  Hospital  become  an  useless  and  ex- 
pensive Durden  to  the  nation.  This  can 
only  be  done  by  an  entire  change  in  the 
management,  and  by  ^thfully  and  honest- 
Iv  expending  the  ample  revenues  in  the 
due  maintenance  of  s«amen  onlv.  The 
news  of  such  a  general  reform  in  the  affiurs 
of  Greenwich  Hospital  would'  be  received 
in  the  navy  with  joy  and  gratitude. 

The  lieutenant  governor  thinks  it  necessary 
to  represent,  Oiat  in  this  application  to  the 
several  members  of  the  court  of  commis- 
sioners and  governors,  he  "has  no  interests 
for  which  he  can  hope  or  fear  on  his  own 
account :  he  was  placed  in  the  Hospital  b  j 
lord  Anson,  after  a  life  of  active  service, 
with  a  view,  as  he  presumes,  that  he  might 
pass  his  remaining  days  in  peace  and  re- 
tirement ;  but  the  sixteen  years  which  he 
has  spent  in  the  Hospital  have  been  the 
most  painful,  harassing,  and  disa^eeable 
of  his  whole  life,  as  he  has,  during  the 
greatest  part  of  this  term,  been  inevitably 
engaged  in  disputes  and  litigation  with 
joboers,  agents  and  contractors,  and  in  op-, 
posing  the  civil  interest  of  this  naval  Hos- 
pital, with  whom  he  never  had  any  other 
point  to  carry,  than  that  the  pensioners 
should  be  peaceably  and  comfortably  main- 
tained, agreeably  to  the  intention  of  the 
founders,  and  to  the  establishment  of  the 
Hospital. 

That  the  contest,  so  far  as  he  is  concerned  in 
it,  must,'  in  the  course  of  nature,  be  now 
nearly  finished ;  but  it  appears  to  him  an 
indispensable  duty,  to  state  the  leading 
circumstances  of  the  atrocious  facts  which 
have  been  committed  during  his  residence 
in  the  Hospital,  to  those  who  are  in  pos* 
session  of  tlie  legal  powers  necessary  for 
the  speedy  removal  of  the  several  causes 
of  complamt  herein  recited, — in  order  that 
the  ineffectual  struggle  which  lie  has  hi- 
therto maintained  may  not  be  urged  as  an 
example  to  deter  his  successors  from  the 
performance  of  their  duty.  The  threat  of 
this  appeal,  though  on  many  occasions  it 
had  produced  salutarv  effects,  has  however 
lately  been  disiegarded,  from  an  opinion 
that  It  would  never  be  made.  It  thereforo 
became  necessary  that  it  should  be  actual- 
ly made ;  and,  though  some  parts  of  the 
prefixed  Case  may  seem  rather  tedious  in 
the  recital,  yet  the  whole  is  confined  to 
real  instances  of  fraud,  collusion,  and  inca- 
pacity, all  of  which  can  be  proved  by  the 
.  clearest  and  most  indisputable  evidence. 

The  lieutenant  governor  takes  the  liberty  to 


5]  respecting  the  Royal  Hosfital  at  Greenwich.  A.  D.  1778. 


[6 


viTgef  ID  the  most  earnest  nuurner,   his 
aniious  hope,  that  these  complaints  may 
excite  a  necessary  degree  of  attention  in 
the  several  great  and  noble  personages  to 
whom  they  are  now  addressed ;  that  a  full 
court  of  commbsioners  and  governors  may 
be  held,  by  whom  these  several  charges 
mav  be  heard  and  examined,  the  present 
evils  redressed,  and  effectual  means  de- 
vised for  restoring  the  Hospital  to  the  navy, 
and  for  the  proper  maintenance  of  seamen 
therein.    When  have  the  interests  of  Bri- 
tain been  deserted,  or  her  defence  neglect^ 
ed,  by  her  navy  ? — It  cannot  be  supposed, 
that  a  complamt  of  this  magnituue,  and 
importsince  to  seamen  worn  out  and  dis- 
abled in  the  service,  can  in  this  country  be 
urged  in  vain. 

Amonsst  the  leadine  measures  to  be  adopted 
for  we  re-establishment  of  the  Hospital,  it 
will  be  necessary, 

Hxat  the  sixpenny  receiver  from  seamen's 
wages^  the  accomptant  and  comptroller  of 
the  sixpenny-office,  the  several  prize- 
agents,  surveyor,  and  chaplain,  be  removed 
from  the  direction ;  and  a  rule  made,  that 
their  successors  be  never  in  future  appoint- 
ed directors  of  Greenwich  Hospital. 

that  persons  of  respectable  and  mdependent 
characters  be  appointed  in  their  room, 
under  such  regulations  as  may  be  judged 
sufficient  to  induce  and  oblige  them  to  atr 
tend  the  important  objects  of  their  duty ; 
and  they  be  made  responsible  for  the  due 
execution  of  the  trust.  With  respect  to 
the  present  direction,  the  old  proverb,  that 
eveiy  body's  business  is  nobody's^  seems 
to  be  truly  verified. 

That  instead  of  the  great  number  of  gover- 
nors, and  the  twenty-four  directors,  if  five 
commissioners  were  appointed,  at  500/.  per 
annum  each,  for  the  sole  care  of  receiving, 
and  ^thfully  and  frugally  expending,  the 
ample  revenues  of  the  Hospital,  the  poor 
men  might  be  nobly  provided  with  every 
necessai^  article  of  life,  and  more  tlian  the 
salary  of  such  commissioners  saved  out  of 
unnecessary  works,  repairs  and  alterations, 
in  which  case  the  Hospital  would  probably 
in  a  few  years  be  restored  to  its  proper  de- 
gree of  estimation  and  use. 

That  if  the  present  unwieldy  body  of  gover- 
nors, commissioners  and  directors,  should 
not  be  reduced  to  five  commissioners,  two 
of  the  captains  be  restored  to  the  direction, 
of  which  their  predecessors  were  deprived 
for  being  strenuous  in  the  noble  cause  of 
protecting  the  seamen  under  their  care. 

Ttuit  the  internal  government  of  the  whole 
house  be  restored  to  tlie  governor  and 
council :  that  this  council  do  consist  of  the 
deputy  governor,  the  four  captains,  and 
onJv  four,  instead  of  the  eight  lieutenants : 
aod  that  the  secretary,  steward,  and  chap- 
lains, be  removed  therefrom,  to  prevent 
the  forming  of  parties  to  embarrass  and 
put-vote  the  principal  officers  pf  the  house, 


whenever  thev  think  proper  to  appear  in 
council,  thereby  disturbing  the  peace  and 
good  government  of  the  Hospital,  for  which 
the  superior,  and  not  the  inferior  officers, 
are  responsible. 
That    the    two    chaplains,   the    secretary^ 
steward,  and  auditor,  with  several  under- 
officers,  deputies  and  servants,  who  have 
not  been  sea-faring  men,  and  whose  ap- 
pointments are  therefore  illegal,   be  dis- 
charged the  Hospital ;  and  that  navy  chap- 
lains, and  other  warrant  officers,  &c.  be 
appointed  in  their  room. 
That  two  of  the  three  matrons,  not  beinz  the 
widows  of  sea-officers,  be  removed  from 
the  Hospital,  and  proper  objects  appointed 
ii^  their  stead,  as  tnere  are  now  the  widows 
of  twenty-four  officers  of  different  ranks* 
serving  in  the  mean  capacity  of  common 
nurses  under  these  matrons. 
That  Greenwich  Hospital  be,  for  the  future, 
preserved,  inviolably  and  exclusively,  for 
the  navy^  as  an  asylum'  for  disabled  sea- 
men, their  widows  and  children ;  and  that, 
for  their  better  securitv,  the  charter  (in 
which  several  essential  words,  and  even 
clauses  of  the  old  commissions  are  omitted) 
be  surrendered  to  his  majesty,  and  an  hum- 
ble petition  presented  for  a  new  one,  mort 
consonant  to  the  old  commissions. 
That  the  apartpients  of  the  several  officers 
who  have  no  concern  with  the  internal  bu- 
siness or  government  of  the  house  be  re- 
stored to  the  Hospital,  they  having  no  bu- 
siness but  with  the  court  of  directors,  of 
which  the  principal  meetings  are  held  in 
London. 
That  the  Roval  Sovereign  ward,  in  kino;  WiU 
Ham's  building,  now  possessed  by  the  se-< 
cretary's  clerk,  be  restored   to  the  pea- 
sioners. 
That  the  office  of  clerk  of  the  works,  being 
an  useless  office,  be  abolished,  as  there  can 
be  no  plea  of  necessity  for  such  an  officer, 
whilst  there  is  a  surveyor,  and  no  new 
buildings  carried  on :  that  the  present  clerk 
of  the  works  be  obliged  to  surrender  to  the 
wards  the  suite  of  apartments  be  possesses, 
and  to  restore  the  posts  and  rails,  which 
out  of  mere  caprice  were  lately  destroyed, 
though  erected,  at  a  considerable  expence, 
round  all  the  outer  walls  of  the  Hospital^ 
for  the  safety,  ease,  and  comfort,  of^  the 
blind,  lame,  and  infirm  pensioners,  who  are 
now  frequently  hemmed  in  between  two 
walls,  to  their  great  terror,  and  at  the  risk 
of  their  lives  from  droves  of  horned  cattle^ 
horses,  &c.    These  walks,  which  were  for- 
merly called  the  Blind  Men's  Walks,  are 
now  become  common  nuisances  %o  people 
of  all  ranks  who  visit  the.  Hospital.* 
That  the  apartments  of  the  lieutenants  Gor^ 
don  and  Kerr,  of  the  clerk  of  the  cheque^ 

*  These  posts  aod  vnils  extended  netrly  one  mile, 
and  were  erected  on  accoont  of  a  poor  pensioiier  being 
kijk4  oA  the  jipot  by  a  oar^^Orig.  Ed. 


n 


18  GEOtlGfE  IIL  The  Case  of  Captain  Tkonuu  SaHHef 


c* 


and  of  two  of  the  matronB,  be  restored  to 
ihe  wards ;  and  that  lodgings  be 'found  for 
ihem  in  the  apartments  of  the  non-qualified 
officers,  or  in  the  new  building  now  occu- 
pied by  the  governor's  clerk,  steward's 
clerky  and  a  person  called  the  clerk  of  the 
works' clerk. 
That  the  clerk  of  the  cheque's  clerk's  apart- 

nient  be  restored  to  the  wards. 
That  all  the  public  passages,  windows,  doors, 
and  stair-cases,  which  nave  been  monopo- 
lized, be  thrown  open  for  the  convenience 
of  the  officers  and  strangers  who  visit  the 
wards,  and  for  the  admission  of  fresh  sdr, 
which  is  so  necessary  to  the  health  of  the 
numerous   inhabitants.      The  stair-cases 
now  in  use  are  narrow  and  dangerous,  and, 
in  case  of  fire,  would  be  insufficient  for  the 
retreat  of  a  crowd  of  people,  as  some  of  the 
principal  wards  are1>arricadoed  up  at  both 
ends  tor  the  ifiagnificent  accommodation 
cf  individuals,  who   have  converted  the 
grand  passages  into  galleries  for  pictures, 
and  the  roof  into  lodging-rooms    with 
chimnies,  where  none  were  originally  de- 
signed. 
That  the  butler's  list  and  chalk-off  list,  which 
are  so  hostile  to  the  establishment,  be  to- 
tally abolished  ;  and  that  the  tables  in  the 
dimne-halls  be  filled  with  pensioners,  and 
served  with  their  full  allowance  of  provi- 
sions ;  it  being  intended,  according  to  the 
rules  of  the  house,  that  they  should  dine 
in  public,  as  a  spectacle  for  the  encourage- 
ment of  seamen.     The  soup-maiere  now 
served  to  the  men 'dishonours  the  nospital, 
and  was  publicly  ridiculed  in  the  dining- 
hall  by  his  excellency  the  Due  de  Niver- 
nois. 
That  such  of  the  pensioners  and  nurses,  as 
from  age,  hnfirmities,  or  other  reasonable 
causes,  shall  be  put  on  the  money-list  by 
the  governor  and  council,  and  not  by  the 
directors,  may  receive  the   flill  value  of 
their  provisions ;  and  that  the  late  order 
procured  by  the  secretary  from  the  general 
court,  to  empower  the  directors  to  dispense 
with  the  mustering  the  pensioners  on  cer- 
tain occasions,  be  rescinded,  as  being  re- 
pugnant to  the  charter,  and   infringing 
upon  the  government  of  the  house,  and  the 
custom  ofthe  Hospital. 
That  the  charity  stock  be  thrown  into  the 
general  iund  of  the   Hospital,  and  such 
boj^s  as  inay  be  judged  proper  objects  of 
this  charity  be  better  fed  than  at  present, 
tid  a  growing  boy  requires  at  least  as  much 
sustenance  as  an  old  man. 
That  the  pensioners  and  nurses  on  the  mo- 
tiey-list  shall  not  be  deprived  of  their  fes- 
tival dinners ;  which  is  an  extra-gift  to  all 
without  distinction,  in  commemoration  of 
the  five  great  anniversaries. 
The  royal  founder^s  coronation,-^king's  birth- 
day,—queen's   birth-day, — accession,  and 
<  the  coronation. 
The  noa-eiyoyment  6f  these  dap  of  mirth 


and  festivity  is  a  r^  gri^ante  to  three  or 
four  hundred  poo^  people. 
That  two  lieutenants  ne  present  at  the  dining- 
halls,  at  dinner ;  and  that  the  chaplain  of 
the  month  say  grace,  instead  of  an  old  pfcn- 

sionet. 
That  the  captam  or  lieutenant  of  the  wcelt  do 
always  see  ^e  meat  delivered  send  weighed, 
agreeably  to  a  former  minute  of  the  cotin* 
cil,  in  order  to  increase  the  present  checksy 
which  have  been  found  insufficient.  Thia 
laudable  regulation  has  been  Ijrtely  over- 
ruled. 
That  the  steward's  clctk  be  never  in  fixture 
allowed  to  .perform  the  duty  of  the  clerk 
ofthe  council. 
That  the  secretary  make  all  the  contracts,  as 
formerly,  agreeable  to  established  forms,  in 
order  to  avoid  the  great  expence  of  attor- 
ney's bills ;  and  that  he  be  not  permitted 
to  make  a  bill  for  travelFing  charges,  being 
allowed  20/.  a  year  for  that  purpose. 
That  the  stewards  of  the  Derwentwater  es- 
tate, and  the  receiver  of  the  sixpences,  be 
obliged  to  remit  to  the  treasurer  and  re- 
ceiver-general all  such  rtoney  as  thfey  may 
receive  on  account  of  the  Hospital,  as  soon 
as  it  shall  amount  to  the  sum  of  50or  in 
order  that  there  may  be  but  one  treasurer: 
and  that  the  board  of  directors  be  not  al- 
lowed to  extend  their  prooer  powers  by 
impresting,  or  advancing  large  sums  of 
money  to  contractors  or  tradesmen,  as  the 
warrants  for  the  payment  of  all  monies 
ought  to  be  signed  quarterly  at  the  gencjral 
,  court. 

That  all  admeasurements  of  the  works  ofthe 
Hospital  be  made  with  the  assistance  of  a 
sworn  surveyor ;  and  that  all  the  works, 
alterations,  and  repairs,  be  sworn  to  before 
the  barons  of  the  Excheauer,  by  the  sur- 
veyor of  the  Hospital,  the  clerk  of  the 
.    check,  and  the  clerk  of  the  works,  as  hav- 
ing been  faithfuUv  and  truly  performed, 
according  to  the  best  of  their  skill  and 
judgment ;  in  conformity  to  a  minute  of 
the  board  of  directors  in  the  year  17 18,  and 
to  the  custom  of  those  times  when  the  af^ 
fairs^of  the  Hospital  were  conducted  with 
integrity. 
That  tne  steward  be  sworn  to  all  his  accounts 
and  disbursements,  being  near  30,000/.  pet 
annum. 
That  the  receiver  of  the  sixpenny  office  (as 
well  as  his  clerk)  be  sworn  to  his  accoimts 
and  disbursements. 
That  the  brewer  be  sworn  to  the  faithful  and 
frus:al  expenditure  of  the  malt  and  hops  ^ 
and  that,  if  any  beer  be  condemned  on  a 
regular  survey,  the  value  of  good  beer  be 
deducted  out  of  his  wages. 
That  the  houshold  and  other  accounts  of  tha 
Hospital  be  examined  at  the  table  where 
the  board  of  directors  sit,  and  not  partially 
and  superficially  passed  by  two  interested 
members,  at  a  separate  table;   and  that 
five  of  the  directors,  afler  proper  exatnitiar 


9}         retpeOing  the  Rojfti  Hospkal  ai  Greirmch* 

tkxi,  do  attest  the  »aid  aceoonts  with  their 
names  ^\  length,  instead  of  the  initial  let- 
ters  of  two  names  only. 
Thai  ail  the  accounts  and  disbursements  of 
the  Hospital  be  sworn  to,  before  the  ba- 
rons of  the  Exchequer ;  which  is  now  per- 
formed partially. 

That  the  auditor  be  obliged  to  audit  aM  the 
accounts  of  the  Hospital. 

That  the  pay  of  the  lieutenants  be  made 
etjiial  to  the  pay  of  the  two  chaplains,  as 
onginaliy  intended. 

That  the  general  courts  be  held  four  times  at 
least  in  the  year,  agreeably  to  the  first 
commissions,  the  busmess  of  this  court  be- 
ing much  increased:  that  due  notice  of 
the  several  meetings  be  given  in  the  Ga- 
zette, and  the  business  made  as  public  as 
possible,  instead  of  beine  privately  passed. 
It  behig  a  matter  of  pubhc  concern. 

That  these  courts  be  held  in  the  Painted-hall 
in  the  Hospital,  in  order  to  add  to  the 
splendour  of  the  meetings,  by  accommo^ 
datiDg  a  sufficient  immber  of  great  per- 
sonages, for  the  more  effectual  protection 
of  seamen,  their  widows  and  children. 

All  Which  premises  are  most  humbly  sub- 
mitted to  the  wisdoih  and  humanity  of  the 
ri^t  honourable  the  lords  and  other  com- 
missioners and  governors  of  the  royal  Hos- 
pital for  seamen  at  Greenwich  (who  are 
the  guardians  and  guarantees  of  the  rights 
of  seamen  in  the  said  royal  Hospital,  and 
who  alone  are  able  to  give  the  poor  pen- 
doiicrs  speedy  and  effectual  reliet)  by  tneir 
most  respectnil  and  faithful  servant, 

Thomas  BxrLLit. 


On  March  7th,  177S,  captain  fisullie  laid  be- 
fore the  earl  of  Sandwich,  at  that  time  first 
lord  of  the  Admiralty,  a  copy  of  the  said 
book,  together  with  the  following  Letter : 

To  the  Rieht  Honourable  the  Earl  of  Sand- 
:h,  a/duressed  on  his  Majesty's  Service. 


As  your  lordship  has  hitherto  been  disposed 
to  hear  only  one  side  of  the  affairs  of 
Greenwich  Hospital,  I  take  the  liberty  to 
enclose  for  your  lordship's  consideration,  a 
State  of  Facts,  which  I  trust  will  stimulate 
your  lordship  to  redress  the  grievances 
therein  complained  of,  and  thereby  restore 
me  to  my  proper  command  in  the  f  iospita), 
of  which  I  have  been  deprived  by  a  combi- 
nation of  landmen,  who,  if  they  had  any 
right  to  a  footing  in  the  Hospital,  can  have 
no  pretence  to  pervert  and  depose  the  law- 
ful government  thereof. 

I  have  the  honour  to  acquaint  yoiu-  lordship, 
that  I  will  not  sit  down  contented  to  see 
the  men  cheated  and  myself  insulted  by 
priests,  clerks  or  contractors.  I  think  it, 
however,  my  duty  to  forewarn  your  lord- 
ship, that  if  you  are  any  longer  deaf  to  rea- 
sonable complaints,  I  shall  put  this  effort 
for  redress  into  execution,  which  I  should 
have  deferred  for  a  more  seasonable  oppor- 


A.D.  mft  [1« 

tunity^  but  the  recent  oTerbaariifi  cMduct 
of  the  fiiction,  so  frequently  alladefd  «cy  in 
the  enclosed  Case,  has  eompelM  me  to^ 
stninle  for  immediate  redress. 
Iwoula  not  have  your  lordship  inkderstaiicl 
that  I  mean  to  disturb  government  at  thi^ 
critical  time,  by  applying  to  Barliament.  I 
scorn  the  imputation  of  making  any  ether 
appeal  than  to  the  body  of  the  commis- 
sioners and  governors  of  the  Hospital, 
whose  boundeii  duty  it  is  to  hear  and  re- 
dress the  grievances  complained  of ;  and 
1  most  sincerely  lament  that  an  establish- 
ment so  tnily  popular  and  great,  should  be 
so  far  perverted  as  to  force  me  to  make 
any  appeal.  I  am,  my  lord,  your  lordship'^ 
most  obedient  and  most  humble  servant, 
Royal  Hmitaif  Oretn-  Tho.  Baillie. 
wich,  March  7, 1778. 

To  this  Letter  captain  Baillie  received  no  ai»- 
swer,  but  oq  March  ]6th,  it  appearing  that 
Mr.  Cooke,  lord  Sandwich's  chapl&in,  had 
seen  the  printed  Case  several  days  before, 
and  had  mentioned  it  in  many  companies^ 
captain  Bailiie  then  carried  copies  of  the 
Case  and  Memorial  to  several  of  the  go* 
vernors  and  commissioners,  particularly  te 
the  first  lord  of  the  treasury  (lord  North,) 
the  lord  president  of  the  council  (earl 
Gower,  afterwards  marquess  of  Suftird,) 
the  three  secretaries  of  state,  and  four  ad« 
inirals.] 

In  the  KiNoVBiifrcH. 
Monday,  November  23,  1778. 


The  KiMo  against  Thomas  Baillie,  Esk]uire, 
Lieutenant  Governor  of  the  Royal  Hos- 
pital at  Gitenwich. 

XHIS  cause  came  before  the  Court  upoD 
the  following  rule  being  granted  on  July  7, 
1778,  viz. 

"Tuesday  next,  after  three  weeks  from 
the  day  of  the  Holy  Trinity,  in  th  18th  year 
of  king  Georee  the  third. 

'*  Kertt. — Upon  reading  the  several  aflida« 
vits  of  James  Stuart,  esquire,  and  two  others, 
the  said  James  Stuart  and  another,  Robert 
Mylne  and  another,  John  Godby  and  another, 
John  Ibbetson,  esq.  and  another,  and  of  the 
reverend  John  Cooke,  clerk,  and  another,  it 
is  ordered  that  the  first  day  of  next  term  be 
given  to  Thomas  Baillie,  esq.  to  sheW  tause 
why  an  information  or  informations  should 
not  bb  exhibited  a^inst  him  for  certain  mis- 
demeanours, in  puhiishing  certaib  scandalous 
libels,  upon  notice  of.  this  rule  to  be  given  to 
him  in  the  mean  time. — On  the  motion  of 
Mr.  Solicitor  General, 

"  By  the  Court.^ 

The  joint  affidavit  of  James  Stuart^  Thomas 
Hicks,  and  the  reverend  John  Cooke,  three 
of  the  directors,  was  read,  and  also  the  affi- 
davit of  Thomas  Baillie,  esq.  defendant^  in 
answer  to  tlieirs;  the  separate  affidavit  of 
James  Stuart,  as  surveyor,  was  also  read,  and 


"3 


18  OEOKGE  lit*  The  Oue  of  Captain  Thomas  BaiUie^         [19 


the  affidavit  of  Robert  Mylne,  clerk  of  the 
works,  was  be jiin.  But  the  Court  asked,  If. 
all  the  complainants  went  through  what  was 
aaid  with  respect  to  themselves,  and  being 
answered.  Yes,  desired  Mr.  Bearcroft  to  pro- 
ceed in  shewing  cau5e>  and  reserve  those  affi- 
davits till  they  were  Uiought  necessary  to  be 
read. 

Mr.  Bearcrqft : 

My  lord ;  this  is  an  application  for  leave 
to  file  one  or  more  informations  against  cap- 
tain Baillie,  lieutenant  governor  of  Green- 
wich Hospital,  as  the  author  and  publisher  of 
a  printed  libel,  upon  the  gentlemen  who  are 
named  in  the  rule ;  three  of  them  as  direc- 
tors of  the  Hospital,  and  upon  Mr.  Stuart,  in  I  ¥rich  Hospital. 


will  be  necessaiv,  in  the  first  place,  fi>r  the 
Court  to  know  the  constitution  of  Greenwich 
Hospital,  so  far  as  it  stands  at  present. 

The  corporation  consists  m  ^neral  of 
some  of  the  first  characters  in  pomt  of  rank 
and  ability,  in  the  nation,  who  are  all  gover- 
nors and  commissioners,  who  have  a  power, 
if  they  please  to  exercise  it,  of  controulin^ 
and  directing  every  thing,  in  respect  to  the 
management  of  the  Hospital :  but  as  it  can- 
not  be  supposed,  all  the  persons  there  named, 
who  are  in  high  situations,  and  employed  in 
matters  of  great  importance  to  the  state,  can 
attend  to  the  business  of  the  Hospital,  in 
fact,  it  has  happened,  that  but  few  of  the  go- 
vernors have  attended  to  the  afiairs  of  Green- 


the  separate  character  of  surveyor  of  the 
Hospital.  Mr.  Mylne  as  clerk  of  the  works, 
Hr.  Goaby  as  steward  of  the  Hospital,  and 
Mr.  Ibbetson  as  secretary  to  the  directors, 
together  vnth  the  reverend  Mr.  John  Cooke 
as  chaplain  of  the  Hospital. 

My  lord,  this  rule  is  for  leave  to  file  one  or 
more  informations,  and,  I  observed,  one  of 
your  lordships  asked  just  now,  why  it  was, 
that  separate  affidavits  were  made  by  the 
flame  )>ersons  of  matter  contained  in  the  same 
book  ?  I  beg  leave  to  answer,  that  it  was  for 
the  p>urpose  of  adding  to  the  oppression  and 
vexation,  which  the  prosecutors  meditated 
against  captain  Baillie,  because  those  pur- 
poses would  be  better  answered  by  six  infor- 
mations than  one ;  but  Mr.  SoUcitor  General, 
with  more  mercy,  though  perhaps  not  a  great 
'  deal  more  judgment,  than  nis  clients,  thought 
they  had  a  better  chance  to  succeed  in  one 
than  in  six  informations.  I  remember  upon 
his  instance,  it  was,  that  the  motion  for  the 
six  informations  was  consolidated  into  one 
rale. 

My  lord,  I  have  no  difficulty 'to  say,  I 
thought  the  judgment  of  the  prosecutors  very 
extraordinary,  in  making  this  motion ;  for  by 
taking  this  step,  it  is  likely  to  call  down  the 
attention  of  the  public  to  the  transactions  in 
Greenwich  Hospital  for  many  years  last  past : 
however,  upon  the  present  occasion,  I  find  it 
mv  duty  to  contena  before  vour  lordship,  this 
nue  ought  to  be  discharged,  and  discharged 
with  costs,  otherwise  the  Court  will  not  do 
justice  to  captain  Baillie,  neither  will  they  do 
that  iustice  upon  the  prosecutors  of  this  rule, 
which  they  deserve,  for  daring  to  make  this 
kind  of  application.  My  lord,  trom  the  prin- 
ciples ofjustice,  I  apprehend,  and  have  no 
doubt,  the  Court  will  soon  believe  this  printed 
book,  which  is  now  attempted  to  be  prose- 
cuted as  a  libel,  is  so  far  firom  deserving  Uiat 
name,  that  it  tells  a  tale  to  the  public,  which 
it  is  fit  the  public  should  be  acquainted  with ; 
that  it  is  a  merit  in  the  party  ttiat  has  stated 
it;  that  he  has  proceeded  in  all  the  circum- 
stances that  have  been  printed  in  this  book, 
that  does  him  great  credit  and  honour. 

Mv  lord,  in  order  for  the  Court  to  under- 
slana  the  matter  now  before  them  at  all,  it 


They  have  power  to  hold  general  courts, 
and  general  meetines  of  governors  and  com- 
missioners, in  which  they  give  absolute  direc- 
tions, touching  any  thing  they  think  proper, 
fiut  the  immediate  business  of  the  Hospital 
has  been  constantly  done  by  a  body  of  per- 
sons, constituted  by  the  charter,  and  called 
the  directors,  and  by  other  persons,  witliin 
the  Hospital,  called  the  eovemor  and  coun- 
cil ;  the  departments  of  Uiese  two  separate 
descriptions  of  men,  the  directors,  and  the 
governor  and  council,  are  very  different  *.  it 
IS  the  business  of  the  directors  to  superintend 
and  direct  every  thing  that  relates  to  the  re- 
venue, accounts,  contracts,  and  building,  and 
every  thing,  in  short,  that  relates  to  money 
matters,  for  the  real  internal  and  external 
interest,  if  I  may  so  call  it,  of  the  Hospital. 

It  is  the  business  of  the  governor  and  coun- 
cil, who  are  or  ought  to  be  naval  officers,  to 
protect  the  numerous  objects  of  the  establish- 
ment, to  direct  and  controul  the  internal  go- 
vernment of  the  Hospital,  and  see  there  is 
good  behaviour  and  proper  subordination  ob- 
served therein,  and  tnat  every  thing  is  con- 
ducted agreeable  to  the  rules  of  the  Hospital ; 
these  are  the  two  separate  departments  of  the' 
directors,  upon  the  one  hand,  and  the  gover- 
nor and  council,  upon  the  other  hand. 

My  client,  captain  Baillie,  in  1761,  came 
into  the  Hospital,  bein^  disabled  in  the  ser- 
vice of  his  country,  and  was  a  captain  upon 
the  establishment,  as  it  is  called— about  five 
years  ago,  he  succeeded  to  the  second  office, 
that  of  lieutenant  eovemor ;  I  beg  pardon 
for  saying  succeeded,  I  mean  to  take  away, 
according  to  the  information  I  have  had,  the 
slander  which  has  been  industriously  spread 
against  captain  Baillie,  as  if  by  his  proceed* 
ings,  in  the  course  he  had  taken  in  the  suIk 
ject  before  the  Court,  he  had  been  suspended 
for  ingratitude,  or  what  is  called  flying  in  the 
face  of  his  patrons  and  benefactors :  it  was 
certainly  not  so— his  character  has  been  en- 
quired into,imd  he  is  found  a  person  as  inca- 
pable as  any  man  living,  of  being  guilty  of 
any  baseness. 

My  lord,  I  ssud  he  succeeded,  I  do  not 
mean  that  it  was  an  absolute  right,  but  it  it 
so  much  of  course,  that  the  next  senior  cap^ 


13]         rapedittg  ike  Royal  Hospital  al  Oreeimkh.         A.  D.  1778v 


tM 


taiD,  when  there  becomes  a  vacancy,  should 
succeed  to  the  office  of  lieutenant  governor, 
provided  there  is  no  objection  to  his  charac- 
ter; and  from  the  good  behaviour  of  captain 
Baillie,  it  seems  there  never  was  the  least 
objection  to  his  character  or  conduct. 

Mjr  lord,  I  will  first  make  a  few  observar 
tioDs  as  to  the  matter  whereon  these  affidavits 
turn,  upon  which  the  application  is  made  to 
the  Court.  Still,  I  fsurly  confess  to  your  lord- 
ships, in  this  observation,  and  in  almost 
every  one  I  shall  trouble  your  lordship  and 
the  Court  with,  my  chief  object  is  to  obtain 
costs  for  my  client :  that  this  rule  will  be. 
discharged,  I  have  not  the  least  doubt ;  for  if 
the  gentlemen  were  likelv  to  succeed  to  make 
h  absolute,  I  do  not  believe  any  mortal 
breathing  would  ever  advise  them  to  go  for 
damages,  but  the  circumstances  are  very  ma- 
terial m  respect  to  costs. 

Now  they  have  picked  out  of  this  printed 
Case  between  fifty  and  sixty  difierept  para- 
mphs ;  I  will  not  call  them  paragraphs,  as 
ibere  is  hardly  a  whole  one,  they  are  pieces 
of  paragraphs,  bits  of  sentences,  half  lines, 
ana  iiMie]>endent  expressions ;  perhaps,  I  am 
incorrect  in  calling  them  so,  because  ail  these 
I  have  spoken  of,  are  general  conclusions 
fiom  particular  facts  and  circumstances,  that 
ve  precisely,  clearly,  and  pointedly  stated  in 
this  book. 

Your  lordship  will  now  see  why  they  chose 
to  pick  out  the  parti<nilar  charges  that  are  in 
Ibe  book;  tfaoush^I  always  understood  the 
particular  story  of  a  man  was  a  much  greater 
ubel  than  a  general  reflection,  but  they  chose 
to  point  out  a  general  conclusion  of  those 
&cte,  to  give  them  an  opportunity  of  doing 
^1  they  have  done ;  but  they  conclude,  after 
tbree  or  four  sentences  are  picked  out — 
** These  deponents  say"  (as  if  every  thinjg 
else  was  true)  *'  so  far  as  they  tend  to  crimi- 
nate us  A.  B.  and  C.  they  are  all  fiilse.'' 
Iben  the  reason  is  obvious,  why  they  did  not 
pick  out  the  particular  charees ;  it  is,  because 
th^  thought  thev  might  shelter  themselves 
ttooer  the  general  expression,  **  So  far  as  they 
tend  to  criminate  us,  they  are  all  false;''  and, 
I  know,  thc^'  could  not  state,  in  this  applica- 
tion to  the  Court,  the  particular  charges,  and 
do  what  was  incumbent  upon  them  to  do— 
to  swear  they  are  false— for  they  know  them 
to  be  true. 

Those  are  the  observations  upon  the  affi- 
da^  that  have  been  read,  and  I  call  upon 
Day  learned  friends  to  know,  whether,  in  all 
they  have  read,  this  is  not  the  course  cx)n- 
stantly  taken,  and  I  submit  no  other  reason 
oa  be  given  for  it.  My  lord,  it  is  extremely 
duficolt  to  attempt  it,  if*^!  was  correct  enough 
^  n^  mstructions  to  do  it,  to  attend  to  all 
the  [wticular  charges,  and  answer  them  se- 
^tely ;  it  would  take  up  an  infinite  d^  of 
^e.  It  is  sufilcient,  that  two  of  then:  affi- 
daviu  have  been  read;  but  I  will  stote  to 
pur  lordship  the  nature  of  certain  charges, 
*^  \k  »l)^w«^  to  those  charges;  in  which 


the  Court  will  see  sufficient  to  lead  their  at**, 
tention  to  the  other  affidavits,  when  they 
come  to  be  read,  and  what  are  the  charges  t« 
which  the  answers  are  applied. 

Captain  BaiUie  first  of  all  says  in  his  affi/b 
davit,  and  I  trust  nobody  will  think  it  im- 
proper to  state  to  your  lordship,  as  he  lias  a 
proper  authority  tor  so  doing,  that  he  has 
served  his  king  and  coimtry  for  near  forty 
years;  that  he  has  risen  to  the  rank  he  held 
when  he  was  ap{>oinced  to  the  Hospital,  which 
was  considerable,  in  consequence  of  hb  cou- 
rage and  conduct  shewn  upon  many  occa^ 
sions,  which  is  shortly  pointed  out,  not  by 
any  interest  or  influence,  but  by  e(x>d  beha- 
viour onlv^  recorded  at  the  Admiralty  ;•  thus 
he  finds  himself  in  the  situation  of  lieutenant 
governor,  who  is  in  truth  the' first  resident 
officer  of  Greenwich  Hospital.  It  is  his  busi- 
ness to  look  daily  into  the  affairs  of  the  Hos- 
pital, to.  see  what  they  are  about,  and  how 
the  seamen  are  provided  for.  In  this  'situa* 
tion  he  tells  your  lordship,  for  a  considerable 
time  past  he  observed  certain  abuses,  which 
when  they  come  to  be  .attended  to,  are  of  a 
sort  and  size  which  not  only  justifies  what 
he  has  done  upon  this  case,  but  that  his  duty 
actually  called  upon  him  to  do  it.  He  sayt 
that  very  soon  after  his  appointment  he  saw 
a  great  number  of  the  rooms  and  the  cabins^ 
which  were  appropriated  for  the  accommo- 
dation of  the  seamen,  taken  away  for  the 
purpose  of  accommodating  landmen,  as  I  see 
the  phrase  is  in  the  Hospital;  and  your  lord- 
ship may  see  these  complaints  frequently  re- 
iterated m  his  printed  Case,  of  its  being  noto- 
rious, tliat  a  ereat  number  of  landmen  have 
of  late  years  Been  introduced  into  the  several . 
places,  as  officers  and  servanto  of  Greenwich 
Hospital,  who  by  the  charter  expressly  ought 
not,  and  in  the  nature  of  things,  in  point  of 
custom  and  usage,  those  offices  ought  to  luve 
been  filled  with  seafaring  men.  There  are  a. 
great  number  of  facts,  of  the  cabins  of  the 


■•-«•■ 


*  See  tke  foUowiflg  LeUer  of  Mr.  ClevelaiMl  (late 
•eorelary  to  the  Adoiiraltj)  to  captain  Baillie,  on  the 
30th  March,  1757,  whioh  happened  daring  the  adaii- 
niftration  of  tlw  late  right  hon.  eari  Tpoiple,  at  the 
Admiralty,  to  whom  captain  Baillie.waa  entirely  nn* 
known. 


u 


To  Captain  BatUie,  Tular,  Spithead. 

'*  Admiralty  Office,  March  50,  1757. 

"  Sir;  I  hare  reoeired  and  read  to  my  Lordf 
CommiMionerf  of  the  Adaiiraitj  jonr  letter  of  the 
98th  instant,  giring  an  aooonnt  of  your  haring  taken 
a  Freiioh  privateer  of  f  4  gam,  belong^g  to  Harre- 
de-OrMe;  and  I  am  eommanded  to  aoqoaint  yon, 
that  the  Nary-board  are  directed  to  porohaie  the 
veitel  without  Iom  of  time,  and  to  regiater  her  in  the 
list  of  the  navy,  by  tho  name  of  the  Turtar'a  Prise, 
and  to  establish  the  nnmber  and  nature  of  gans  iha 
now  has,  and  160  men  in  her ;  and  their  lordships 
hare  appointed  yoa  to  oommand  her,  as  a  reward  for 
yoor  behayioor. 

"  I  am,  Sir,  your  most  humble  servant, 

"  J.   CLlVaLAND.* 

"  Satered  at  tho  Adiuralty."    Orig.  EtL 


IS] 


It  GEORGE  ill.  Th€ 


«Q|jiien  being  Uken  away,  to  inUoduce  ;u)d 
accomoiQ4ate  landmen  into  offices  and  lodg- 
\f^  in  the  Hospital.  This  shews  Mr.  Secre- 
tary Ibbetson's  sep^urajte  a|)plication  might 
have  beep  with  g^reat  propriety  made  geaerd, 
it  Mis  Milder  the  general  head  of  complaint. 
I  think  eieven  of  the  cabins^  were  knocked 
down  almost  ^bout  Uie  ppor  fellows  ears,  to 
fUfkke  w  aparUnent  still  more  magnificent 
^r  Mr.  Ibhetsoo,  aad  double  that  number 
|br  his  deik.  I  cano^.express  myself  better 
upon  Jthe  subjeoty  tlum.ov^  of  the  poor  pen- 
ttoners  did  upon  the  occasioip,  as  he  was  pulled 
out  of  his  b^  ftnd  hobbling  dpwn.s^irs,  the 
old  m^ui  shook  his  head  and  said,  '<  Ah !  this 
is  very  hard  indeed !  that  so  many  fighting 
men  should  be  turned  out  of  their  beds  for 
oqe  .writing  man  f  ^  I  have  alrc^y  stated  to 
tte  Court,  a  vast  number  of  offices,  which 
were  lucrative,  s^nd  in  the  hands  of  seamen 
foitaerly,  jbftve  now  got  into  the  hands  of 

landmctn. 

In  ^ing  my  duty  by  my  client,  I  cfmnot 
help  fqllowing  his  instrucUons.    It  seems  he 
iias  found  out  that  by  a  most  wonderful  ope- 
.cation  of  fortuitous  events,  a  particul^  jsort 
of 'men  which  you  find  in  all  these  plaoei$,  are 
{freeholders  or  burgesses  of  Huntingdon.    So 
fer  it  is  necessary  to  take  jUptice ;  for  if  pot, 
the  whole  of  the  complaint,  at  least  most  of 
*it.is  attributed  to  such  kind  of  proceeding, 
whi^h  a^ccounts  for  most  of  the  subjects  I 
have>8poken  of. 
C(i¥Tt.    What  says  the  charter  about  it  ? 
Mr.  Murphy,    It  ej^cludes.personi^  that  are 
freeholders  or  burgesses  of  all  counties,  as 
well  as  Huntingdon,  if  not  seafadog  men ; 
the   words  are,   '*  No  officer  shall  be  em- 
ployed in  the  Hospital  but  seafaring  men, 
pr.  such  who  have  lost  their  limbs,  or  been 
.otherwise  disabled  in  the  sea^service.'' 

,Qourt,    I.  doubt  .whether  they  will  find  a 
ifciting  man  taken  .notice  of  th^re'asex- 
.eludea? 

Mr.  B^twtr^,    Gapt.  BailUe  says-he  was 
t«Kceftdingly,uawiDing  to  take  the  course  he 
did.    Heaaya  upon  his  taking  notice  of  the  se- 
vendabuses  committed,  hethelieut^edvemor 
and  the  council  did  frequently  apply  to  the 
directors  in  9rder  to  remedy  such  abuses,  but 
-their  applications  were  in  vain,  and  cold 
water  was  thrown  on  them.    He  states  to 
vour^lordshipLthat  he  applied  several  times 
m  writing  to.the  First  li)rd  of  the  Admiraltv 
without  e^^^Qt;  and  up^n  an  iptcrvicw  with 
his  lordship  at  the  Admiralty,  he  was  told  he 
would  iv>t  let  business  go  on;  but  not  con- 
tent with  living  his  application  thus  re- 
jected by  the  ^First  Lord  of  the  Admiralty, 
captain  BaiUie  swears  he  left  his  printed  Case 
and  Memorial  sealed  up  with  a  letter  for  lord 
Baindwich,  requesting  that  his  lordship  would 
look  into  the  afiairs  of  the.  Hospital;  that  on 
the  ninth  or  tenth  day  h^  saw  his  lordship, 
who  abruptly  told  him»  in  the  presence  of 
Mr.  Stephens,  the  secretary,  that  he  had  no 
compjmds./or  hiqa.   ,Ailter  such  recq>tion^ 


C(Uc  of  Captain  Thomas  BailU^f  {IjS 

and  not  before,  captain  B^Uie  seeing,  and  to 
his  honour  feeling,  as  it  became  him  to, do, 
the  injuiies  that  were  daily  arising  to  the  ob- 
jects of  his  care,  thought  there  was  no  pos- 
sible chance  of  redress,  \^uX  by  applying  to 
the  body  of  the  commissioners  and  governora 
at  lacge,  to  whom  he  did  apply  on  the  tenth 
da^.     And  he  swears  positively,  that  his 
prmtedCase,  which  these  gentlemen  that 
prosecute  the  rule  find  to  be  a  Ubel  upon 
them,  was  printed  solely  for  the  purpose  of 
laying  before  each  separate  governor  add 
commissioner  of  the  Hospital,  the  nature,  of 
his  complaints,  in  order  to  beget  an  attention 
m  them,  and  to  procure,  if  possible,  by  that 
means  an  efficient  general  court,  that  might 
inquire  into  and  reform  the  abuses.    This  he 
positively  swears  was  his  sole  object  in  com^^ 
piling,  in  printing,  and  delivenne  the  several 
copies  of  those  he  has  dehvered ;  which  he 
sweass  he  delivered  only  to  such  governors,  to 
his  own  counsel,  and  one  or  two  to  his  own 
friends,  for  their  advice  and  assistance  when 
he  was  threatened  to  be  attached  at  law.  And 
I  trust,  your  lordship  will  find  that  every  se- 
parate charge  of  the  facts  therein  mentioned 
are  true,  which. alone  is  an  answer  to  svn  ap- 
pUcation  for  an  information ;  but  there  is  not 
a  colour  to  consider  it  as  a  Ubel,  because  it  is 
a  representation  of  complaints  fit  to  be  made 
to  those  whose  duty  it  is,  and  who  have  au-^ 
thority  to  hear  and  redress  them;  therefore  it 
is  impossible  to  consider  this  as  a  libel. 

In  the  first  place,  my  lord,  I  take  it  to  be 
the  established  practice  of  this  Court  in  all 
cases,  upon  a  motion  for  an  information  for  a 
libel,  to  grant  a  rule  of  the  i|[iformation  be 
true,  Uiough  in  point  pf  law  it  is  neverthe- 
less a  libel  for  bemg  true;  ^ret  the  Court  will 
not  permit  them  to  go  on  in  this  extraordi^ 
nary  vniy  for  an  information,  especially  if 
your  lonuhips  find  this  printed  Case  was  not 
printed  for  the  purpose  of  publication  to  the 
world,  nor  for  the  purpose  of  exposing  parti- 
cular persons  to  the  public;  but  for  the  mere 
purpose  of  stating  facts  in  a  plain,  but  in  a 
strong  manner ;  and  it  was  fit  in  this  case  he 
should  state  them,  as  he  has  in  a  verv  pun- 
gent manner  in  many  parts  of  it.  If  that  be 
the  complexion  of  the  business,  I  trust  your 
loidships  will  mojst  undoubtedly  discharge 
this  nue  with  costs. 

Now,  my  lord,  I  will  go  through  shortlv,  as 
well  as  I  can,  those  parts  of  their  affidavit 
which  state  the  supposed  charges  upon  them, 
as  far  as  they  condescend  to  particulars  at  all, 
and  explain  very  shortly  the  answer  captain 
Baillie  gives  to  their  comiplaint,  which  an- 
swer I  may  once  for  all  say  is  chiefly  thus : 
that  true  it  is,  Idid  mean  all  this  you  sunpose 
me  to  mean  in  general,  and  more  parUcmarly, 
and  it  is  all  true;  and  captain  Baillie  has 
himself  gone  through  the  particulars,  and 
sworn  they  are  absolutely  true;  and  notwilh- 
stax^ding  the  padns  ^ea  at  different  times 
tonieventthe  officers  and  pensioners  from 
m£ing  a^y  viduntacy  affidavits^  judd.  every 


17}  respecting  the  Royal  HespUal  at  Greemanch.        A.  D.  1778. 


CIS 


DorUl  of  Greenwich  Hospitai  believe  they 

committed  a  very  great  otience  asainst  the 

fa^  powers,  and  would  be  punished  at  proper 

opportunity  if  they  did ;  yet  it  is  not  to  be 

vondered  there  were  to  be  found  amongst  such 

gsUant  officers  and  seamen,  a  great  number 

of  persons  who  joined  with  Mr.  BatlHe  in 

proving  the  truth  of  the  facts  of  every  charge, 

which  the  prosecutors  chose  to  pick  out,  and 

put  in  their  affidavits  in  their  own  way,  and 

upon  which  they  found  their  application  to 

the  Court. 

My  lord,  the  nature  of  the  first  charge  your 
lordship  finds  by  the  affidavits  is,  *^  Though 
there  arc  twenty-four  directors,  yet  in  truth 
some  of  them  very  seldom  attend,  except  for 
the  purpose  of  presenting  or  nominating  a 
chanty  boy  upon  the  foundation ;  that  others 
lekkm  interfere  in  the  business,  or  stay  after 
the  secretary  has  taken  notice  of  their  being 
present,  and  that  only  to  give  a  sanction  to 
the  |irocecdtngs  of  the  court."  This  is  a  sort 
of  tnin|  upon  the  mere  stating,  every  body 
would  nardly  believe,  but  captain  Baillie 
swears  it  to  be  true,  and  if  the  Itooks  of  the 
UosfHtal  were  referred  to,  it  would  appear  so : 
and  many  of  the  twenty-four  directors  hardly 
ever  attend  at  all,  others  attend  for  the  pur- 
Dose  of  some  little  emolument  to  themselves. 
Your  lordships  seem  surprized  that  these 
charges  should  be  stated  as  tnie,  but  many 
of  those  gentlemen  receive  ten  shillings  for 
their  daily  attendance ;  notwithstanding  the 
chaiter  allows  that  ten  shillings,  it  is  given 
unAer  this  restriction,  to  those  who  shall 
think  reasonable  to  demand  it ;  how  shame- 
fiii  it  is  to  demand  it !  yet  the  demand  is  al- 
wa^'s  made. 

The  directors  who  chiefly  attend,  it  is 
stated,  are  the  -wery  persons  concerned  in  the 
receipts  and  expenditure  of  the  Hospital 
money ;  that  is  sworn  to  be  true,  and  it  most 
undoubtedly  is  so,  that  the  persons  usually 
attending,  are  those  gentlemen  who  are  so 
nearly  concerned.  The  surveyor  of  the  Hos- 
pital and  receiver  of  the  monthly  sixpences 
from  every  seaman  in  the  merchant  service, 
and  the  persons  now  complaining  to  this 
Court,  are  the  persons  that  usually  do  attend. 

Mr.  Baillie  says,  and  insists  it  is  true,  that 
he  has  very  often  complained  of  this,  but  he 
has  not  had  any  redress  at  the  meeting  of 
the  directors,  though  he  is  one  by  virtue  of 
jus  ofl&ce ;  he  also  pressed  them  to  enquire 
into  the  accounts  and  the  vouchers  or  the 
receiver  of  the  sixpences,  but  Mr.  Hicks  him- 
self was  always  present  as  a  director,  and  in- 
terfered and  prevented  any  close  examination 
of  those  accounts. 

He  says  and  swears  to  the  fact  of  the  free- 
dom of  debate  being  interrupted,  and  it  is 
notorious  h  must  be  so,  and  there  ought  to 
he  a  freedom  of  enquiry  into  the  money  ex- 
pended, and  into  the  state  of  the  accounts ; 
Wl  that  has  been  prevented  by  these  acting 
•Bwclors,  those  pnersons  being  present  who 
voce  to  allow  their  own  acoouQts,  and  their 
VOL  XXL 


presence  must  have  a  considerable  weiglit 
when  such  enquiry  was  to  be  made;  the 
Court  must  see  as  I  do  what,  must  be  the 
consequence.  Then  it  seems  Mr.  Hicks  was 
never  at  sea  in  his  life,  but  is  a  freeholder  of 
Huntingdonshire. 

Court,    What  is  his  office  ? 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen,  Receiver  of  the  sixpenny 
duty  paid  by  the  seamen. 

Mr.  Bearcroft.  With  respect  to  the  next 
observation,  nobody  will  dispute  that  the 
agents  for  prizes  ought  not  to  be  directors. 
One  very  great  income  for  the  support  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  is  the  prize  money  that 
is  unclaimed  after  three  years,  and  at  this 
moment  I  believe  (I  don't  know  whether  I 
am  perfectly  correct  in  the  sum)  tHe  prize 
money  unclaimed  amounts  to  70,CX)0/.  and 
upwards. 

Now,  my  lord,  as  for  the  prize-agents,  it  is 
not  their  interest  to  settle  accounts  with  the 
Hospital,  but  to  keep  the  prize-money  in 
their  hands.  It  is  the  business  of  the  di- 
rectors to  compel  those  accounts  and  the 
payment  of  the  balance,  the  reason  is  ob- 
vious. 

Court,  How  arc  the  directors  made,  named, 
or  appointed? 

Mr.  Bearcroft,  They  are  named  by  the 
charter. 

Court.  How  are  the  vacancies  filled  up  ? 

Mr.  Murphy,  By  the  Lords  of  the  Ad- 
miralty. 

Mr.  Bearcroft,  My  lord,  Mr.  Baillie  is 
complained  of  for  having  said,  in  his  book, 
that  the  independent  directors  seldom  inter- 
fere, in  the  business,  thoii«^h  they  happen  t^ 
be  present,  having  found  ny  experience  it  is 
totally  useless :  this  the  complainants  chuse 
to  suppose  relates  to  them.  To  this  Mr. 
Baillie  answers,  with  great  truth,  and  some 
humour,  that  when  he  speaks  of.  the  inde- 
pendent members,  he  does  not  mean  to  speak 
of  the  reverend  Mr.  Cooke,  Mr.  Stuart,  or 
Mr.  Hicks. 

Mr-  Solicitor  General.  Mr.  Baillie  is  a  di- 
rector now. 

Mr.  Bearcroft,  He  is  nothing  now,  he  is 
suspended  from  his  office,  in  consequence  of 
the  proceedings,  at  what  was  called  a  com- 
mittee of  enquiry.  It  is  wonderful  to  con- 
ceive, how  it  should  get  into  their  affidavit, 
that  captain  Baillie  complains,  the  commis- 
sioners and  governors  at  large  arc  never  sum- 
moned— Is  It  jiot  true  ?  Your  lordship  may 
know  it— though  you  are  a  governor,  yen 
never  had  a  f^ummons. 

Earl  of  Mansfield,  No,  I  never  had. 

Mr.  Just.  Willes,  I  did  not  know  I  was  a 
governor  till  now. 

Mr.  Bearcroft,  My  lord,  it  is  fit  all  the 
members  of  a  corporation  should  be  sum- 
moned, and  I  am  a  little  astonished  it  has 
not  created  a  new  place  of  sumraoner,  or 
something  of  that  sort;  it  might  be  worth 
purchasing  perhaps,  but  nothing  of  that  sort 
is  done.  It  is,  however,  a  subject'  of  com- 
l      C 


m 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Que  of  Captain  Thomas  BaiOie, 


[SO 


plaint  that  they  had  never  been  summoned. 

Court,   It  would  be  a  large  summons,  \ 
perceive,  by  the  charter. 

Mr.  Bearcroft,  Amongst  the  rest  of  the 
'  fisurts  there  is  this  one.  I  see  that  there  is  a 
charge  in  the  supposed  libel  of  a  deficiency 
in  one  Ellis,  the  stewarcrs  accounts,  of  three 
thousand  five  hundred  and  fifly  odd  pounds, 
and  likewise  a  great  (Quantity  of  stores,  to  a 
considerable  amount  in  point  of  value— this 
is  notoriously  tiue — it  is  sworn  to  by  captain 
Baillie,  as  appears  by  his  affidavit,  and  otners, 
that  this  steward  Ellis  was  deficient  that 
sum,  and  he  was  permitted  to  lurk  about  the 
office  a  considerable  time  without  prosecu- 
tion, or  any  method  taken  to  get  the  money ; 
At  last  he  absconded,  and  no  enquiry  was 
made  farther  about  the  matter.  This  is  one 
of  the  charges  in  the  book  against  the  direc- 
tprs,  and  tlus  is  literally  true,  though  they 
are  pleased  to  call  it  a  supposed  deSciency. 
My  lord,  I  forbear,  though  I  see  I  have  notes 
of  many  circumstances,  not  so  well  worth 
while  to  go  into,  but  amongst  other  things  it 
is  fit  to  attend  to  tliis  charge,  that  is,  that  for 
the  emolument  of  the  persons  concerned,  the 
pensioners  have  been  served  with  bad  meat 
of  all  kinds,  and  of  a  very  inferior  quality; 
in  particular,  one  charge  is  stated,  and  that 
part  of  it,  I  am  sure,  is  tnic ;  I  am  persuaded 
It  is  in  your  lordship's  memory,  that  the  con- 
tracting butcher,  Mellish^  I  think  the  name 
is,  who  contracted  to  funiish  the  best  of 
meat,  and  to  be  paid  the  best  price ;  whereas 
it  was  proved  he  fiirnished  meat  of  a  very  in- 
.ferior  kind,  such  as  bull-beef,  and  putrid 
veal. 

Court.  BuU-staf-beef  is  the  phrase  for  it. 

Mr.  Bearcrqfl,  Your  lordship  will  find  tlie 
breach  of  contract  was  a  long  time  before  it 
VfSLa  prosecuted,  and  at  last,  the  penalties  were 
not  insisted  upon ;  and  they  were,  in  my  ap- 
prehension, very  improperly  compoundea; 
and  that  same  butcher  was  afterwards  con- 
tracted with,  and  still  supplies  the  Hospital, 
though  it  was  known  he  aealt  with  the  but- 
chers in  the  neighbourhood  for  bad  meat  of 
all  kinds ;  what  signifies  the  contract,  if  he 
has  in  many  instances  incurred  penalties,  to 
a  very  great  amount  indeed,  by  having  totally 
disreg^ded  the  contract,  in  supplymg  buU 
and  bull-stag  beef? 

t  Court.   Wiis  he  not  twice  prosecuted? 

Mr.  Bearcroft.  Yes,  my  lord,  my  aifidavits 
prove  it,  and  state  that  all  the  particulars  are 
true.  Then  it  states  that  the  apartments  of 
several  landmen  in  offices  were  enlarged,  and 
a  great  number  of  expences  incurred  to  make 
alterations  and  additional  buildings  by  no 
means  necessary ;  whilst  the  poor  pensioners 
had  besides,  bad  beef,  bad  beer,  bad  washing, 
bad  shoes  and  stockings ;  and  to  shew  the 
proceedings  to  be  gross  to  a  degree  of  shame, 
there  is  a  charge  of  persons  conveying  large 
quantities  of  water  through  pipes  into  the 
tniall  beer,  and  sworn  to  be  true.  There  are 
some  paintings  in  the  Hospital,   thai  are 


shewn  to  strangers  and  others.  It  seems 
they  wanted  cleaning,  and  there  was  1,000/. 
paid  by  the  directors,  which  is  a  very  large 
sum  of  money,  for  ih&  purpose  of  cleaning 
these  pictures  ;  and  when  the  particidars  of 
the  real  expence  are  gone  into,  it  tuhis  out 
that  one  hundred  ana  fifly  pounds  or  two 
hundred  pounds,  was  the  expence  really  and 
truly  incurred,  and  what  was  necessary,  might 
have  been  done  for  les^,  if  they  had  chose  it 
— These  arc  the  sort  of  complaints  that  hav^ 
been  enumerated  by  captain  Baillie,  which  he 
laid  before  the  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty, 
having  frequently  applied  to  the  directors  la 
vain  :  however,  it  did  at  last  pi'oduce  a  com- 
mittee of  inquiry^  and  that  committee  acted 
contrary  to  the  true  spirit  of  such  a  commit 
tee ;  Mr.  Baillie  applied  to  the  Board  of  Ad- 
miralty for  a  fair  and  regular  enquiry  into 
the  truth  of  those  charees,  for  the  purpose  of 
general  reformation.  But  your  lordship  will 
sec  by  the  manner  of  appointing  the  coo»- 
mittee,  and  permit  me  to  say,  by  me  conduct 
of  those  gentlemen,  at  their  several  meetinzs^ 
it  was  clearly  shewn  their  object  was  not  ^ 
enquiring  into  facts  for  the  purpose  of  redress 
ing  grievances,  but  their  great  object  was,  H 
they  could,  to  find  some  charge,  ri^bt  or 
wrong,  ajrainst  Mr.  Baillie^  to  turn  him  out 
of  his  office  in  the  Hospital — that  was  tht 
object  of  thehr  enquiry.  Your  lordship  sees 
captain  Baillie's  complaint  is  against  the  d^ 
rectors.  Your  lordship  will  be  surprised  to 
learn,  that  when  application  was  made  to 
lord  Sandwich  for  an  appointment  of  disiii* 
terested  persons  to  make  an  enquiry,  hi« 
lordship  very  coolly  applied  to  Mr.  Baillie* 
and  desired  him  to  name  seven  directors ; 
says  Mr«  Bfullie,  that  is  strange  indeed,  m^ 
complaint  is  against  the  directors — it  should 
be  governors  and  commbsioners,  that  are  not 
directors.  Says  his  lordship,  if  vou  will  not 
name  them,  I  will  name  them  for  you,  and 
lord  Sandwich  appointed  seven  persons,  all 
of  whom  are  directors,  and  without  makiojg 
any  observations,  I  will  repeat  to  your  lor£ 
ship  who  th^  are,  and  their  situation.  Th« 
first  person,  is  sir  Meyrick  Burrell,  of  whom 
I  shall  say  nothing,  but  that  he  attended 
only  once,  and  I  verily  believe  he  was 
heartily  ashamed  of  what  was  going  forwanl, 
and  tlierefore  did  not  attend  any  more.  The 
next  upon  the  Ust  is  Mr.  Peregrine  Gust,  wh« 
attended  all  the  meetings,  except  the  last ; 
and  his  absence  captain  Saillic  had  reason  to 
regret,  for  in  the  course  of  the  sittings  of  the. 
committee,  when  Mr.  Baillie  complained, 
and  with  tmth,  that  his  witnesses  were  not 
heard,  and  he  not  permitted  to  prove  the  se« 
veral  charges  in  his  book,  he  was  interrupted, 
insulted,  and  abused  by  several  of  the  par- 
ties, particularly  by  Mr.  Mylnei  be  was  call- 
ed a  blackguard  and  a  liar  by  the  reverend 
Mr.  Cooke— Mr.  Gust  said.  Be  patient,  cap- 
tain Baillie,  I  promise  you,  before  this  busH 
ness  closes,  it  will  take  a  great  deal  of  time« 
youfself  and  all  ^aw  wimesset  shall  be  fairly 


81]        mpeding  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Greenvsich.  A.  D.  1779. 


[23 


inrd;  on  this  account,  his  absence    Mr. 

BuiJie  had  great  reason  to  regret:  but  to- 

nrds  the  close  of  the  business,  on  the  last 
dsjy  there  attended  one  captain  Barker  in 
lus  room,  and  this  captain  Barker  was  ex- 
tremely angry  with  Mr.  Baillie  for  taking 
ii|M»  ium  to  doubt,  in  any  instance,  of  the 
propriety  of  the  conduct  of  the  directors; 
aod  whenever  Mr.  Baillie  interfered,  and  de- 
sired to  be  heard  to  prove  his  allegations,  the 
ttoeral  answer  of  Mr.  Barker  was  this,  Why, 
air,  what  do  you  mean,  by  charging  such 
people  as  the  directors?  Their  having  done 
a  thuig,  is  proof  enough  they  have  done  ri^ht 
SDd  proper,  and  there  is  no  around  to  im- 
peach the  conduct  of  such  gentlemen  as  they 
are,  and  I  will  not  suffer  it :  and  Mr.  Barker 
was  as  good  as  his  word,  for  notwithstanding 
the  promise  Mr.  Cust  n^ade,  to  hear  captain 
Beilue,  he  found  all  of  a  sudden  the  busmess 
dosed,  and  Mr.  Baillie  was  turned  out,  and 
told,  the  court  would  sit  but  one  day  more, 
aod  that  only  for  the  purpose  of  making  a 
report  to  the  Admiralty,  which  report  captain 
Baillie  never  has  seen  nor  knows,  but  by  the 
effect  of  it.  It  seems  he  has  been  suspended 
for  some  months  from  his  office,  his  pay  and 
emoluments  stopt  pendente  Ike,  This  cir- 
oimatance  alose,  my  lord,  would  most  un- 
doubtedly, if  I  was  not  to  apply  for  costs, 
render  me  inexcusable. 

Cwrf.  Have  any  of  you  got  the  report  and 
Older  for  his  suispension  ? 

Mr.  Ejergratfe.  The  copy  of  the  report  was 
deared  by  Mr.  Baillie,  but  it  was  refused. 

Mr.  Beararofft.  My  lord,  it  is  material  to 
state  that  this  captain  Barker  was  a  captain 
ofaooliier,  the  other  persons  that  attended 
arc,  a  Mr.  Savary,  storekeeper  of  the  ord- 
nance at  Gibraltar:  a  Mr.  Wells,  a  great 
shipbuilder,  and  contractor  for  the  Admi- 
ral^; a  Mr.  W.  James,  now  sir  Wm.  James, 
a  contractor  for  shipping :  and  a  Mr.  Charles 
Beynolds,  fbmaerly  a  master  of  a  merchant- 
man. This,  my  lord,  was  the  nomination  of 
the  court  of  enquiry,  and  according  to  what 
is  set  forth  of  their  proceedings  by  the  affi- 
davit of  captain  Bafllie  and  Mr.  Cowley,  it 
was  a  mockery  of  every  idea  of  justice :  a 
feice  and  a  burlesque  of  justice,  and  really 
deserves  great  censure.  I  cannot  help  taking 
notice  of  captain  Baillie's  complaint,  for,  I 
think,  he  has  great  ground  to  complain. 
That  upon  this'  occasion,  when  he  was  called 
upon,  though  not  i>eTmitted  to  prove  the 
tnith  of  the  charges  in  his  book,  he  was  con- 
fronted with  a  counsellor  and  solicitor,  whom, 
be  says,  came  to  collect  materials,  not  for  the 
pabhc  good ;  but  to  give  a  colour  to  the 
complaints  of  individuSs,  in  order  to  bring 
wm  before  the  court  of  KingVbench ;  and 
^fawqgfa  Mr.  Baillie  is  a  very  brave  man,  and 
not  daid  of  a  French  captain,  your  lordship 
Jill  find  he  was  exceedingly  intimidated,  m- 
•jed,  at  the  sight;  of  mv  worthy  friend,  Mr. 
Morgan:  for  he  found  that  Mr.  Morgan  was 
M  only  a  ooonseHor,  but  th^t  sort  of  a 


counsellor,  called  a  special  pleader  !-*and 
reported  to  be  a  gentleman  of  great  eminence 
in  that  profession ;  and  I  may  venture  to  say^ 
a  great  number  6f  i>ersons  do  entertam 
strange  opinions  of  special  pleaders,  and  take 
them  for  very  uncommon  geniuses.  And  I 
dare  say,  when  captain  Baillie  found  himself 
opposed  bv  a  person  so  extraordinary,  his 
fears  met  him ;  for  Mr.  Morgan  contrived  to 
prevent  his  going  into  any  one  part  of  his 
case— One  minute  he  was  told, '  Sir,  you  are 

*  not  to  prove  this  by  such  evidence — then^ 

*  you  shall  not  prove  that— they  are  my 
'  clients,  and  sliall  not  be  permitted  to  accuse 
'  themselves."  At  which  Baillie  was  totally 
astonished,  and  his  proofs  put  an  end  to. 

This  is  in  general  the  nature  of  the  procee<J^ 
ings  of  this  committee  of  enouiry— I  dare 
say,' I  have  omitted  a  great  numoer  of  things 
which  appeared  upon  their  proceedings 
Upon  the  whole,  my  lord,  I  contend  this  is 
not  a  libel ;  that  captain  Baillie,  in  printing^ 
this  Case,  has  done  no  more  than  his  duty, 
and  that  duty,  as  1  conceive,  with  decency, 
and  there  is  not  the  least  foundation  for  this 
application. 

But,  my  lord,  in  consequence  of  the  rule 
being  granted  for  captain  Baillie  to  shew 
cause,  they  have  made  an  affidavit,  giving 
their  reason  why  they  did  not  apply,  sooner 
to  the  court;  they  say,  they  thought  it  was 
not  proper  to  make  the  application,  because 
there  was  a  committee  of^  enquiry,  to  call 
upon  Mr.  Baillie  to  prove,  if  he  could,  the 
several  charges  contamed  in  his  book.  My 
lord,  it  is  singular,  that  when  these  gentle- 
men themselves  are  speaking  of  this  court  of 
enquiry,  they  will  not  venture  to  say  a  word 
of  Its  nature  or  proceedings ;  they  dare  not, 
I  will  venture  to  say,  not  one  of  them  dared  ^ 
they  were  very  wisely  advised  to  abstain 
from  doing  it — th<^  will  not  dare  to  swear  it 
was  in  truth  a  fair  enquiry  into  the  Charges, 
and  that  Mr.  Baiilie  was  called  upon  and 
heard  to  prove  his  charges. 

Upon  all  the  circumstances  of  this  case, 
can  there  be  a  doubt  this  rule  will  be  dis- 
charged }  I  am  very  earnest  in  hoping  it  will 
b^  discharged  with  costs;  if  not,  the  com* 
plainants  will  have  succeeded  in  the  only  ob- 
ject of  their  application.  1  have  no  concep- 
tion, your  lordship  will  make  the  rule  abso- 
lute ;  for  if  half  a  dozen  are  to  join  their 
own  purses,  and  the  purse  of  the  ilospital  is 
to  be  joined  with  them,  in  this  case  thev  can- 
not but  prevail  in  this  prosecution,  to  the  en- 
tire ruin  of  captain  Baillie ;  their  affidavits 
requiring  such  answers,  as  made  the  business 
spread  out  to  a  most  enormous  size :  captain 
Baillie  is  therefore  obliged  to  give  answers  to 
particular  charges,  unnecessary  as  they  are, 
and  it  has  not  cost  him  less  than  three  or 
four  hundred  pounds  upon  this  occasion. 

I  conceive,  therefore,  the  court  will,  for  the 
obvious  reasons  I  have  already  stated,  be  of 
opinion,  this  rule  ought  to  be  discharged,  and 
discharged  with  costs. 


83] 


16  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  TJumas  Bttillie^  [24 


I  should  have  taken  up  a  ereat  deal  more 
lime,  in  proportion  to  what  I  nave  done,  if  I 
had  stated  all  the  particulars  of  the  aiBdavils. 
This  is  the  general  outlihe  of  the  case ;  and 
when  our  affidavits  are  read,  I  dare  say  your 
lordships  will  find  the  case  much  stronger 
than  I  have  stated  it ;  and,  I  trust,  your  lord- 
i»hip  willy  as  justice  cannot  be  done  without 
it,  discharge  the  rule  with  costs. 

Court,  How  is  the  court  appointed  that 
made  this  enquiry ;  I  see  it  is  a  court  of  go- 
vernors ? 

Mr.  Murphy,  It  was  appointed  by  lord 
Sandwich,  and  they  are  all  directors  as  well 
as  governors.  ^ 

Court.  I  want  to  know  under  what  autho- 
rity it  was,  the  committee  was  appointed  ? 

Mr.  Bearcroft.  It  was  under  the  authority 
of  a  general  court  of  governors,  which  I 
should  have  stated. 

Court.  It  was  not  any  omission. 

Mr.  Bearcroft,  It  consisted  of  about  seven- 
teen governors,  out  of  that  number  twelve  or 
fourteen  of  them  were  directors,  and  of  those 
very  directors,  the  court  of  enquiry  was  named 
by  lord  Sandwich  himself. 

The  Affidavit  of  Thomas  Baillie,esq.  lieu- 
tenant governor  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  was 
read,  wnich  being  very  long,  is  here  omitted. 

Court.  I  see  the  tendency  of  your  other  af- 
fidavits ;  by  this  they  are  of  the  same  ten- 
dency with  what  he  says. 

Mr.  Murphy.  My  lord,  they  are  all  very 
material. 

Lord  Mamjield.  They  can  be  read,  when 
you  have  stated  them,  and  shewn  the  mate- 
riality of  them  :  I  shall  know  better  how  to 
attend  to  them,  when  I  see  the  use  you  make 
of  them. 

Mr.  Hargrove.  I  am  not  sufficiently  ac- 
i|uainted  with  the  i^ature  of  the  case,  to  take 
it  from  what  has  been  read,  without  hear- 
ing the  affidavits  read. 

Lord  Mansfield.  I  take  it  from  the  defend- 
ant's affidavit,  that  the  others  ioin  with  him 
in  verif^'ing  the  facts,  and  Cowley  concurring 
with  bim,  as  to  the  behaviour  of  the  com- 
mittee of  enquiry ;  and  when  it  comes  to  be 
^lore  material,  to  be  precise  and  exact,  they 
will  be  read ;  I  shall  take  it,  from  Mr.  Mur- 
phy *s  opening  de  bene  esacy  we  may  stay  till 
the  last  day  of  the  term,  if  we  are  to  read 
them  all. 

Mr.  Peckham : 

May  it  please  your  lordships  to  far 
vour  me  in  behalf  of  this  much-injured  gen- 
tleman, captain  Baillic,  who,  after  forty 
years  service  with  honour  to  himself,  and 
glory  to  his  country,  is  dragged  into  this  court 
to  answer  as  a  criminal,  though  guilt}'  of  no 
other  crime  than — that  which,  in  the  opinion 
of  the  directors  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  is  of 
the  most  enormous  magnitude ;  the  crime'Of 
an  honest  and  conVientio.us  discharge  of  his 
dijtv. 


Had  captain  Baillie  slept  in  his  office ;  had 
he  been  inattentive  to  the  duties  of  his  star- 
tion ;  nay,  had  he  been  guilty  of  peculatieif , 
and  joined  in  the  generalplunder,  he  would 
not  nave  been  brought  before  your  lordships 
this  d^yas  a  delinquent;  but  probably  womd 
have  been  the  conndeotial  friend  of  the  first 
lord  of  the  Admiralty,  and  might  even  have 
supplanted  the  reverend  Mr.  Cooke  in  his 
favour. 

It  was  his  duty  to  endeavour,  to  the  ut- 
most of  his  power,  to  remedy  those  abuses 
which  called  aloud  for  redress.  It  is  for  the 
faithful  discharge  of  that  duty,  he  is  now 
harrassed  with  this  prosecution,  in  the  vain 
and  idle  hope,  that  in  his  ruin  will  be  buried 
that  censure  and  punishment,  which  they 
must  be.  conscious  their  conduct  and  their 
crimes  most  justly  deserve. 

My  lord,  the  intention  of  the  establishment 
of  Greenwich  Hospital  was  for  seamen — that 
is  the  institution.  The  charter  says,  ^  All 
the  officers  to  be  appointed  in  and  foMhe 
said  Hospital  shall  oe  seamen  only.'' — ^The 
words  are  precise  and  positive,  and  can  be 
neither  explained  away  nor  contradicted. 

By  the  original  instrument  by  which  the 
Hospital  was  established,  the  commissioners, 
governors,  and  directors,  are  all  to  be  men  of 
rank,  fortune,  and  ability ;  24  directors  are 
named  by  the  charter,  and  appointed  by  the 
Admiralty,  for  the  external  government,  so 
far  as  it  relates  to  the  expenditure  of  money, 
the  making  of  contracts  for>provbions,  and 
other  necessaries ;  and  a  council  of  naval  o& 
ficers  is  or  ought  to  be  appointed  by  the  Ad- 
miralty, for  the  internal  government  of  the 
house,  under  the  name  of  "  Governor  and 
Council.'' — My  client,  captain  Baillie,  as  lieu- 
tenant governor,  is  by  the  charter  a  member 
of  the  general  court  of  commissioners  and 
governors,  and  also  a  director ;  he  is  likewise 
a  member  of  the  council ;  and  in  the  absence 
of  the  governor,  is  chairman  of  the  two  last 
boards,  and  commanding  officer  in  the  Hos- 
pital. 

II<5  was  therefore  impelled,  by  every  tie  of 
duty,  to  remedy  the  abuses  he  had  complain- 
ed of.  Added  to  this,  there  are  three  letters, 
stated  in  his  printed  Case— orders,  I  may  call 
them— from  two  different  governors,  express- 
ly charging  him' to  keep  a  watchful  eye  upor& 
the  pen-and-ink  men,  as  the  governors 
thought  proper  to  call  them. 

Captain  Baillie  perceiving,  in  everv  departs 
ment  of  the  Hospital^  most  shameful  plunder 
and  peculation— findms  landmen  introduced, 
in  express  violation  of&e  charter— the  provi- 
sions intolerable— the  men's  clothes  scantily 
provided,  and  upwards  of  30,000/.  expended 
m  8  vears  in  useless  alterations,  thought  he 
should  not  do  his  duty  by  himself,  by  the  sea- 
men, and  his  country,  if  he  did  not  make 
those  complaints,  which  as  an  honest  man  he 
was  bound  to  do,  and  for  which  every  indivi^ 
dual  owes  him  thanks  and  reverence. 

Th^  Hospital  being  in  ]tbi3  situation,  th« 


45]         respeding  the  Royal  Ilospkai  at  Greemwch,  A.  D-  1778. 


t25 


lieiitenant  governor  applied,  accoidine  to  the 
ndoof  the  house,  first  to  the  council:  they 
app]y  to  the  directors,  and  afterwards  to  the 
«ovemor,  who  pay  no  attention  to  his  com- 
plaiats :  he  then  applies  to  the  first  lord  of 
the  Admirahy,  but  without  efiect:  and  at 
kst  he  presents  to  him  the  printed  Case,  to 
which  he  desires  an  answer ;  but  after  many 
days  were  elapsed,  he  is  told,  **  No  answer 
mMjJd  be  given.'' 

He  then  appUes  to  the  lords  of  the  Admi- 
tahy,  through  the  medium  of  the  secretary, 
with  a  respectful  letter,  and  his  printed  Case 
enclosed — that  met  with  as  ill  ^ate  as  his  for- 
mer application  ;  and  captain  Baillie  then,  and 
not  tm  then,  applied  to  the  commissioners 
and  governors,  as  the  dernier  resort,  to  re- 
medy those  evils. 

If  the  intermediate  officers  refiised  to  ad- 
dress the  Admiralty,  or  ^neral  court,  captain 
Baiilie  was  willing  to  ^ive  as  little  oiience  as 
possible  in  doing  it  hmiself ;  for  he  printed 
the  Case  of  Greenwich  Hospital  with  the  ut- 
most caution :  and  he  tells  you  the  reason  of 
piinting  it  was,  there  were  such  a  number  of 
xxmimissioners  and  governors,  to  whom  it  was 
necessary  to  communicate  the  facts  he  had 
stated,  that  it  would  have  been  impossible  to 
have  done  it  in  manuscript ;  therefore^  as  the 
easiest  and  best  method,  he  had  it  pnnted — 
but,  solely  with  a  view  that  the  governors 
shouM  read  and  digest  it,  in  order  that  the 
truth  of  the  several  facts  therein  stated  might 
bemvestigated. 

Soon  after  this  publication,  as  it  has  been 
called,  had  l>een  thus  delivered,  it  became 
necessaiy  sonnething  should  be  done;  and 
therefore  a  mock  tribunal  was  instituted, 
which  they  thought  proper  to  call  a  court  of 
enquiiy^a  court  in  itself  illegal,  because  im- 
propeny  constituted:  and,  therefore,  what- 
ever was  done  in  it  is  nothing  to  the  present 
purpose;  for  though  a  general  court  was 
called,  it  was  thought  expedient  to  delegate 
the  enquiry  to  a  committee  of  seven,  which 
seven  are  directors. 

If  there  had  been  any  gross  misbehaviour 
in  the  Hospital,  and  no  redress  could  be  ob- 
tained, the  commissioners  and  governors  at 
large  ought  to  have  selected  a  number  of  go- 
vernors of  independent  fortune  and  situation, 
who  ^ere  not  directors.  Men  of  that  de- 
scription would  have  probed  the  bu^ness  to 
thairattom;  but.  instead  of  those,  they  were 
a  packed  council  for  the  occasion ;  and  the 
omn  of  enquiry  consisted  of  the  very  delin- 
quents thenaaelves. 

Your  lordships  vrill  be  astonished  to  hear 
that  the  committee  sat  in  judgmentupon  their 
own  criities,  and  that  those  gentlemen  were 
^rpointed  by  the  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty. 
You  find,  with  an  adroitness  peculiar  to  him- 
^,  he  selected  a  set  of  men  devoted  to  him ; 
obligated  to  him  for  the  very  bread  tiiey  eat, 
^  which,  in  part,  arises  out  of  a  fund  ap- 
fnipriated  for  the  use  of  disabled  seamen,  and 
i»  wki«b  the  seamen  themselves  contribute. 


How  do  they  proceed?  Captain  Baillie's 
witnesses  arerefiued  to  lie  heard— he  applies 
to  the  books,  that  he  may  have  evidence 
from  those  unerring  vouchers— the  liooks  are 
refused  to  be  opened ---he  was  browbeat  by 
their  counsel,  and  insulted  by  their  cifvil  offi- 
cers, a  set  of  landmen,  in  a  manner  that  a 
gentleman  must  blush  to  hear  of;  Mylne, 
the  clerk  of  the  works,  calling;  him  a  black- 
guard, while  Cooke,  tiie  cliaphun,  brands  him 
as  a  liar.  That  a  clergyman  should  be  so  lost 
to  all  sense  of  decency,  as  to  forget  that  de- 
corum which  more  peculiarly  belongs  to  his 
situation,  makes  me  blush  for  the  profession 
of  which  he  is  so  unworthy  a  member ;  but, 
that  a  man  of  low  birth,  and  no  education, 
should  talk  a  language  familiar  to  himself,  I 
neither  reprobate  nor  am  surprised  at ;  yet 
the  directors  that  sat  in  the  court  of  enquiry, 
ousht  not  to  have  permitted  a  brave,  honest, 
ola  seaman  to  have  been  treated  in  that 
shameless  way,  by  men  who,  from  profes- 
sion or  situation,  were  shielded  from  his  re- 
sentment. 

After  the  committee  had  sat  some  days, 
Mr.  .Cust,  their  Chairman,  who  appeared 
ashamed  of  their  conduct  and  their  cause, 
withdrew  himself  from  the  committee ;  and 
Mr.  Barker,  a  captain  of  a  collier,  was  called 
to  the  chair ;  a  proper  instrument  for  the  in- 
tended purpose :  that  man  was  mean  as  well 
as  weak  enough  to  say,  that  he  was  employ- 
ed by  lord  Sandwich,  and  was  to  be  paid  for 
his  labour :  the  labourer  proved  himself 
worthy  of  his  hire ;  for,  in  a  few  minutes, 
there  was  an  end  of  the  committee,  this  ho- 
nourable man  asserting,  that  evidence  was 
immaterial;  that  it  was  libellous  to  doubt 
the  integrity  of  the  directors;  that  he,jthere- 
fore,  should  close  the  business,  without  hear- 
ing those  witnesses  of  captain  Baillie,  which 
Mr.  Cust  had  promised  should  be  heard. 

Your  lordships  will  observe,  the  reason  this 
court  was  not  sooner  applied  to,  in  the  lan- 
guage of  the  prosecutor's  affidavits,  was, 
"  We  could  not  apply  before,"  because  the 
court  of  enquiry  was  not  finished :  yet  there 
is  not  a  man  upon  that  court  of  enouiry  who 
dares  to  say,  tne  facts  charged  are  disproved, 
or  that  any  one  of  the  delinquents  was  not 
guilty  of  the  crimes  imputed  to  him.  It  would 
not  perhaps  be  difficult  to  guess,  at  the  real 
reason ;  but  it  is  foreign  to  the  present  pur- 
pose. Perhaps  a  greater  man  than  any  of 
these  found  himself  attacked  in  another 
place,  where,  conscious  of  the  truth  of  cap- 
tain Baillie's  charges,  and  of  the  impossibility 
of  vindicating  himself,  he  thought  it  would  be 
prudent  to  avoid  the  enquiry,  by  asserting, 
that  it  was  to  undergo  a  discussion  in  West- 
minster-hall. That  apology  might  silence 
the  peers ;  and  he  then,  to  save  his  credit, 
mignt  order  his  minions  to  prefer  this  prose- 
cution, not  vrith  the  hope  or  success,  but  to 
save  him  from  the  enquiry  he  had  so  much 
reason  to  dread.  Soon  after  this  manoeuvre 
had  succeeded,  and  your  lordships  had  be*A 


S7] 


18  GEORGE  HI.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaiUie^  [SS 


applied  to  for  infbrmations,  Mr.  Hicks,  the 
sixpenny  receiver,  who  was  one  of  the  persons 
charged  by  captain  Baillie,  who  is  one  of  his 
prosecutors,  and  who  sat  in  judgment  upon 
nim  at  a  general  court,  where  lora  Sandwich 
presided ;  at  that  court,  Mr.  Hicks  proposed, 
that  captain  BailUe  should  be  removed  from 
bis  employment  of  lieutenant-governor.  The 
noble  lord  foi^ot,  for  a  moment,  the  dignity 
of  his  station;  and,  more  like  a  drunken 
chairman  in  a  night^cellar  than  a  peer  of  par- 
liament, bawls  out,  **  All  you  that  are  of  that 
opinion,  hold  up  your  hands.''  They  all  join- 
ed in  full  chorus  for  suspension ;  and  every 
tdirty  hand  was  immediately  exalted ;  so  that, 
in  five  minutes,  this  brave  old  officer  was  tried, 
condemned,  and  executed. 

My  lords,  this  sentence  is  to  captain  Bail- 
lie  a  very  serious  business ;  for  it  robs  him  of 
6002.  a-year ;  and  if  his  wife  should  become  a 
widow,  she  loses  her  pension  of  100/.  per  ann. 
more :  and  he  now  stands  before  you^  after 
being  worn  out  in  lone  and  faithfiil  services— 
an  honest  man  indeed,  but  without  a  shilling 
in  his  pocket ! 

My  lord,  it  will  be  necessary  to  ask  your 
lordship,  whether,  takine  the  whole  of  this 
Case  iojgether — printed  tor  the  expriDss  pur- 
pose or  giving  information  to  those  who 
wanted  it,  in  obedience  to  the  dutv  he  owed 
bimself  and  the  public — can  tliis  be  called  a 
libel?  Is  it  a  libel  for  a  man  to  do  his  duty  ? 
Is  it  a  Ubel,  for  a  man  to  complain  to  those 
who  have  idone  the  power  to  redress  the 
grievance  ? 

If  this  is  to  be  called  a  libel^  I  doubt  not  but 
the  lime  will  come,  when  a  grand  jury  will 
baVe  informations  filed  against  them,  as  li- 
bellers, for  the  presentments  they  have  been 
bound  in  duty  to  prefer. 

I  know  but  of  one  case  in  point ;  which  is 
the  case  of  the  convicted  highwayman,  who 
threatened  to  swear  the  peace  against  his 
jury,  for  having  put  him  in  fear  of  his  life. 
Having  thus  considered  the  Case,  as  taken  to- 
gether, not  to  be  a  libel,  let  us  state  the  parti- 
cular parts  of  it,  and  see  whether  any  thing 
can  be  collected  that  is  libellous.  I  will  not  go 
through  a  tedious  detail  of  what  has  been  al- 
ready spoken  to ;  but  will  mention  some  par- 
ticulars, if  there  is  light  sufficient  to  let  me 
refer  to  my  brief  with  respect  to  the  joint 
affidavit  of  the  three  directors,  the  charge  is, 
^  The  directors  never  presume  to  exercise 
their  own  judgment,  but  give  their  votes 
agreeable  to  the  directions  they  receive^ — 
^'Thereby  insinuating'^-^observe  the  insinua- 
tions !  that  the  directors  were  guilty  of  fraud  ! 
fmd  did  not  vote  according  to  their  con- 
science ! 

Is  that  insinuation  iustified  by  the  charge } 
Does  it  necessarily  follow,  that  men,  who  do 
not  exercise  their  judgment,  must  act  con- 
trary tothenr  conscience,  or  that  they  are 
l^lty  of  fhuid,  because  they  obey  the  direc- 
tums  of  another  ?  Are  the  mandates  of  loi^ 
fiaodwich  so  wkked,  tl^at  obedience  to  them 


becomes  criminal?  These  wretched  affidavit* 
men  appear  to  me  to  be  the  libellers ;  not  the 
defendant,  who  has  written  the  truth. 

There  b  another  charge  which  they  have 
disingenuously  construed,  but  dare  not  deny  ; 
and  have  taken  only  a  piece  of  the  paragraph, 
'^  That  (meaning  the  government  of  the  Hoa* 
pital)  which  has  been  eventually  formed,  is 
rather  a  burlesque  upon  authority,  as  nothing 
can  be  more  absurd  than  to  appoint  persons, 
with  all  the  grave  solemnity  of  rod  business, 
to  examine  into  and  controul  their  own  con- 
duct; to  check  and  point  out  objections  to 
their  own  accounts,''  meaning  thereby  (ms 
they  swear  in  their  affidaviu)  that  those  di* 
rectors  who  have  accounts  to  settle,  aie 
guilty  of  fraud,  -and  n^igence :  does  that 
follow?  Certainy  not.  But  the  impropriety 
of  such  appointments  is  glaring;  and  the  first 
,  part  of  the  sentence,  which  they  have  thought 
proper  to  lop  oS,  expresses  it,  ^*  Thus,  iqstead 
of  a  government  of^  that  perfect  kind,  which 
might  naturally  be  expected  from  the  anxious 
care  which  breaUies  tnrough  evei^'  line  of  the 
original  instruments  by  which  it  is  estiU>l]sh- 
ed,  that  which  has  been  eventually  formed  is 
rather  a  burlesque  upon  authority,  6cc,  &c.'' 

Now  your  lordship  sees  how  the  sentence 
is  mutilated,  and  what  false  conclusions  they 
have  drawn  from  those  premises.  There  are 
a  great  variety  of  shnilar  instances  in  their 
affidavits,  even  to  bits  of  sentences  and  half^ 
lines.  I  wish  to  read,  and  to  observe  upon 
some  of  them  ;  but  it  is  impossible  for  me  to 
see  by  this  light,  and  I  cannot  recollect  them 
with  sufficient  accuracy,  to  state  them  with 
necessary  precision ;  therefore  I  shall  content 
myself  witn  a  few  observations  to  your  lord- 
ship upon  the  wjiole  purport  of  what  the  pro- 
sepitors  say,  *'  So  far  as  the  charge  tends  to 
criminate  me,  I  deny  it."  That  is  the  man- 
ner some  charges  are  treated  in — that  is  the 
form — ^they  swear,  this  or  that  is  not  true ;  or, 
it  don't  tend  to  criminate  me.  With  what 
face  then  do  the  gentlemen  come  here  to 
make  the  application. 

If  it  does  not  criminate,  why  do  they  make 
such  application  ?  If  it  does  criminate  them, 
they  ought  to  be  indicted  for  perjury;  for  all 
the  charges  are  substantiated  beyond  a  possi- 
bility of  doubt — not  only  by  the  affidavit  of 
captain  Baillie,  but  the  concurring  testimony 
of  at  least  thirty  others. 

For  example — the  facts,  with  respect  to  the 
butcher,  cannot  be  denied.  The  charge  is^ 
that  he  who  has  been  convicted,  is  again  em- 
ployed. Then  say  they  '<  This  change,  so  far 
as  It  criminates  me,  is  not  true."  Tne  truth 
of  the  fact  cannot  be  controverted — then  it 
does  not  tend  to  criminate  me — If  it  does  not, 
for  what  purpose  do  they  come  here?— I  take 
upon  me  to  say,  upon  my  veracity,  thatevery 
charge  is  answered  in  the  way  I  have  now 
mentioned ;  or  else  they  draw  their  condu* 
sion,  and  say,  This  I  deny!— For  instance— 
they  state  a  charge — from  that  charge,  they 
draw  a  perverse  and  &lae  oooclusion^-'aaid 


0]         tx^ectuig  tie  Rotf^  Hotpkat  at  Gnmaich.         A.  D.  1778. 


C» 


then  they  say  (hoping  to  impose  upon  the 
oooft)  **  This  we  deny,'*  referring  to  their 
ovn  coDcrhision,  which  is  the  antecedent,  that 
dicy  know  to  he  faiee,  and  take  no  notice  of 
the  charge  which  standc  uncontradicted. 

1  trust  these  few  ohservations  aie  complete 
answers  to  every  part  of  their  affidavits :  I 
take  upon  me  to  say,  there  is  not  a  fact  in  the 
book,  but  what  is  positively  proved.  There 
is  not  a  &ct,  which  they  have  attempted  to 
deny.  I  shimld  therefore  insult  the  court,  if 
I  oMild  suppose  the  rule  would  not  he  dis- 
charged with  costs. 

My  fordy  I  have  ever  understood  when 
lenttemea  come  into  this  court  upon  ground- 
Kss  applications,  though  much  more  favour- 
ably circmnstanoed  than  the  present,  that< 
this  court  will  give  costs  to  the  adverse  party ; 
ibr  it  would  be  extremely  hard  indeed  for  an 
innocent  man  to  be  dragged  here  to  answer,  at 
a  great  expence,  a  crime  which  had  no  exist- 
ence hut  in  the  maUce  of  his  prosecutors. 

Costs  have  been  granted  in  informations 
a^iiist  justices  of  the  peace,  in  informations 
in  the  nature  of  a  Quo  Warranto ;  and  though 
those  informations  differ  from  the  present 
appUcatioD,  yet  the  amercing  the  prosecutor 
in  coats  is  founded  on  the  same  immutable 
law  of  justice,  that  the  innocent  should  not 
be  hamssed  without  reconipence^  and  that 
the  wron^  doer  should  defray  the  expence  he 
had  oocaaioneH. 

Who  is  at  the  expence  of  this  prosecution } 
i  see  many  of  the  prosecutors  here :  will  they* 
aay  it  comes  out  of  their  own  pockets  ?  I  see 
the  solicitor  of  Greenwich  Hospital  here,  at- 
tending as  their  attorney:  he  likewise  is  si- 
lent. Then  I  am  justified  in  saying  the  pro- 
secutors are  not  to  pay^lct  them  deny  it  if 
they  dare ! 

u  it  pos»ble,  my  lord,  that  these  men's 
cxpences  shall  bedeiraved  out  of  the  treasury 
•f  Greenwich  Hospital,  appropriated  to  the 
most  praise-worthy  purposes,  while  this  im- 
happy  gentleman  is  to  be  ruined  by  paying' 
his  own  costs,  though  he  prevails  against  his 
prosecutors,  who  cannot,  who  dare  not,  deny 
the  charges? 

There  is  a  technical  expression  used  in  the 
law,  ^  that  every  man  should  come  into  this 
court  with  clean  hands."  Which  of  the  pro- 
Mcotors  can  claim  the  benefit  of  the  expres- 
wmf 

Is  Mr.  Hicks^e  sixpenny  receiver,  in  that 
predicament?  But  enough  has  been  already 
said  of  lum,  to  convince  your  lordship  that  he 
does  not  come  with  clean  hands. 

la  what  iisht  does  Mr.  Ibhetson  appear?  — 
A  mere  clenc  in  office,  who  lifts  his  hand 
against  a  lieutenant  of  the  Hospital,  and 
rtdkes  a  onvple  who  was  without  defence. 
Hub  is  not  the  onlv  instance  of  his  crueltv ; 
fer  apoorhelpless  old  pensioner  stands  in  juds- 
BMKt  aainst  him,  whom  he  beat  unmerciful- 
If-  wlufe  hleeding  at  his  feet !  Are  these 
the  dean  hands  which  come  for  informa- 
tfatts  stained  inth  the  blood  of  the  M, 


the  impotent  and  infirm  I  But  let  us  look  at 
the  reverend  Mr.  Cooke,  that  worthy  leader  of 
these  disgraceful  scenes,  that  negociator  of 
every  thing  that  is  infamous.  1  am  not  to  ha 
deterred  from  my  dut^,  but  will  speak  of  meit 
as  they  are ;  though  I  should  be  ashamed  to 
use  such  language,  if  I  could  not  justify 
every  word  I  shall  say  of  tiiat  abandoned 
man. 

It  is  proved,  beyond  a  posaability  of  donbt^ 
that  tbb  man,  who  is  a  director  of  a  great 
establishment,  who  ought  to  have  been  tha 
first  to  prosecute  the  contracting  butcher,  for 
his  numberless  fiauds  on  the  poor  pensioners^ 
was  the  man,  that  was  shameless  enough  to 
apply  to  different  persons,  beggine  them  to 
suppress  their  evidence  against  that  delin- 
quent. .  Can  there  be  a  more  atrocious  act 
thaa  to  suborn  witnesses  in  fiivour  of  that 
defendant,  which,  as  a  director  and  a  {daiqt^ 
in  the  cause,  he  yns  bound  to  bring  ta 
justice? 

The  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  has  been  guilty  of  an- 
other act,  which  cries  aloud  for  vengeance^ 
He  told  different  gentlemen,  who  wereofficera 
in  the  Hospital—* 

'*  If  you  are  seen  with' captain  Baillie,  lord 
Sandwich  will  stop  your  preferment  for  it^ 
and,  if  he  applies  to  parliament,  will  expel 
him  the  Hospital  :^  ano,  lest  his  words  should 
not  gain  creoit,  he  stampt  it  with  the  sai^ctioa 
of  an  oath,  saying,  *  Bv  God  it  is  true !" 

This  is  the  man  wdo  is  called  the  confi- 
dential director  of  lord  Sandwich.  I  vow  to 
God  I  am  ashamed  to  hear  it.  Sure  it  must 
be  impossible  that  a  noble  lord  should  so  far 
foi^t  the  dignity  of  his  station,  as  to  be  con- 
nected with  such  a  man,  or  to  descend  to  such 
unexampled  meanness,  as  to  prevent  gentle- 
men from  holding  communication  with  cap- 
tain Baillie,  or  wreaten  him  with  ruin,  for 
persevering  in  his  duty. 

I  will  not  believe  it  of  the  noble  lord ;  Mr. 
Cooke  must  have  held  this  languafc  without 
authority ;  and  I  trust  in  future  he  will  not 
enjoy,  since  he  can  no  longer  deserve,  the  at- 
tention of  lord  Sandwich  as  a  confidential 
firiend. 

Mr.  Mylne,  the  clerk  of  the  works,  thought 
proper  to  call  the  lieutenant-governor  a  black- 
guard, and  dared  to  strike  one  of  the  kin^s 
lieutenants  daring  the  sitting  of  the  commit- 
tee. A  man  bom  with  a  trowel  in  his  hand, 
a  bricklayer,  struck  a  gentleman  for  giving 
evidence  m  the  court  oT  enquiry !  Yet  these 
are  the  men  that  apply  to  your  lordship,  and 
beg  you  will  nqt  discharge  the  rule;  but 
grant  ah  information  against  captain  Baillie. 

These  are  the  men,  my  lord,  that  have  acted, 
I  am  not  ashamed  to  say,  with  equal  infamy 
and  meanness.  If  ever  men  ouffht  tu  be 
amerced  in  costs  for  bringmg  an  ill  grounded 
prosecution,  they  are  now  before  the  court. 

My  lord,  it  is  so  dark,  it  is  impossible  for 
me  to  recur  to  my  notes,  to  state  many  things 
which  ought  to  be  stated ;  notwithstanding; 
I  hope,  fiom  what  has  been  already  said  bgr 


31] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  afCaplain  Ttomas  Bailtie,  [3S 


the  gentlemen  idio  have  tpoken,  and  from  the  i 
few  observationa  I  hayeoeen  able  to  make, 
that  your  lordships  will  feel,  that  this  rule 
•ught  to  be  discharged  with  costs. 
fL>>urt  adjourned  till  the  next  day.] 

November  34. 

The  Hod.  Thomat  Enkinc : 

-My  lord  ;*  I  am  likewise  of  counsel  for 
the  author  of  this  supposed  libel :  and  if  the 
matter  for  consideration  had  been  merely  a 
question  of  private  "wrong,  in  which  the  inte- 
rests of  society  were  no  farther  concerned, 
than  in  the  protection  of  the  innocent,  I 
snould  have  thoueht  myself  well  justified, 
after  the  very  able  defence  made  by  the 
learned  gentlemen  who  have  spoken  before 
me,  in  sparing  your  lordship,  already  fi^tigued 
with  the  subject,  and  in  leaving  my  client  to 
the  prosecutor's  counsel  and  the  judgment  of 
the  Court. 

But  upon  an  occasion  of  this  serious  and 
dangerous  complexion,  when  a  British  subject 
is  brought  before  a  court  of  justice  only  for 
having  ventured  to  attack  abuses,  which  owe 
their  continuance  to  the  danger  of  attacking 
them ;  when,  without  any  motives  but  bene- 
yplence,  justice,  and  public  spirit,  he  has  ven- 
tured to  attack  them  though  supported  by 
power,  and  in  that  department  too,  where  it 
itas  the  duty  of  his  office  to  detect  and  expose 
them ;  I  cannot  relinquish  the  high  privilege 
of  defending  such  a  character ;  I  will  not  give 
up  even  m;^  small  share  ofiYie  honour  of  repel- 
ling and  of  exposing  so  odious  a  prosecution. 

No  man,  my  lord,  respects  more  than  I  do 
the  authority  of  the  laws,  and  I  trust  I  shall 
not  let  fall  a  single  word  to  weaken  the  ground 
I  mean  to  tread,  by  advancing  proposition!, 
which  shall  oppose  or  even  evade  the  strictest 
rules  laid  down  by  the  Court  in  questions  of 
this  nature. 
.  Indeed,  it  would  be  as  unnecessary  as  it 
would  be  indecent ;  it  will  be  sufficient  for 
me  to  call  vour  iordship's  attention  to  the 
marked  and  striking  difference  between  the 
writing  before  you,  and  I  may  Venture  to  say 
almost  every  other,  that  has  been  the  sub- 
ject of  argument  on  a  rule  for  a  criminal  in- 
formation. 

The  writings  or  pubtications,  which  have 
been  brought  before  this  Court,  or  before 

*  la  the  IntrodoetioD  to  thit  •peeoli  id  the  rsoent- 
ly  published  CoUeetion  of  Lord  Bnkine't  Specehet,  U 
is  stated,  **  Mr.  Enkioe  spoke  from  the  back  row  of 
the  coart,  we  beliere  for  the  fint  time,  ai  he  had  onlj 
bdeo  called  to  the  bar  on  the  last  day  of  the  term 
preceding."  The  most  able  and  eloquent  reviewer  of 
that  poblication  troly  observes,  that  by  this  speech 
Mr.  fErskine,  intlie  very  outset  of  his  brilliant  career^ 
aitonislied  the  legal  world  by  a  display  of  talent 
which  has  indeed  been  outshone,  hot  by  no  means  ob- 
scured even  by  his  own  riper  efforts.  See  Edinburgh 
Review,  rol.  16.  p.  103.  I  an  informed  that  the 
espressioBS  of  delight  and  admiratioD,  which  this 
Speech  excited  in  Wettminsler-hall,  have  never  been 
paralleled  then, 


orand  juries,  as  libels  on  individualsy  have 
been  attacks  on  the  characters  of  private  men, 
by  writers  stimulated  sometimes  by  resent- 
ment, sometimes,  perhaps,  by  a  mistaken 
zeal;  or  they  have  been  severe  and  unfounded 
strictures  on  the  characters  of  public  men, 
proceeding  from  officious  persons  taking  upon 
themselves  the  censorial  office,  without  tem- 
perance or  due  information,  and  without  any 
call  of  duty  to  examine  into  the  partfcular  de- 
partment, of  which  they  choose  to  become 
the  voluntary  guardians:  a  guardianship 
which  they  generally  content  themselves 
with  holding  in  a  newspaper  for  two  or  three 
posts,  and  then,  with  a  senerouty  which. 
$hines  on  all  tnankind  alile,  correct  eveiy 
department  of  the  state,  and  find  at  the  end 
of  their  lucubrations,  that  they  themselves 
are  the  only  honest  men  in  the  community. 
When  writers  of  this  description  suffer,  how- 
ever we  may  be  occasionally  sorry  for  their 
misdirected  zeal,  it  is  impossible  to  aigue 
against  the  law  that  censure^  them. 

But  I  beseech  your  lordship  to  compare 
these  men  and  their  works,  with  my  chent, 
and  the  publication  before  the  Court. 

Wiiohkef  What  is  hU  duty  f  What  Has  he 
written  i  To  whom  has  he  zcritten  f  And  what 
motive  induced  him  to  write  ¥ 

He  is  lieutenant  governor  of  the  Royal 
Hospital  of  Greenwich,  a  palace  built  for  the 
reception  of  aged  and  disabled  men,  who 
have  maintain^  the  empire  of  EneUmd  on 
the  seas,  and  into  the  offices  and  emoluments 
of  which,  by  the  express  words  of  the  charter,, 
as  well  as  by  the  evident  spirit  of  the  institu- 
tion, no  landmen  are  to  be  admitted. 

His  Duty — in  the  treble  capacity  of  lieu- 
tenant governor,  director,  and  a  general 
governor,  is,  in  conjunction  with  othen^ 
to  watch  over  the  internal  economy  of  this 
sacred  charity,  to  see  that  the  setting 
days  of  these  brave  and  godlike  men  are 
spent  in  comfort  and  peace,  and  that  the 
ample  revenues,  appropriated  by  this  ge- 
nerous nation  to  their  support,  are  not  per- 
verted and  misapplied. 

He  has  written,  that  this  benevolent 
and  politic  institution  has  degenerated  from 
the  system  established  by  its  wise  and  muni- 
ficent founders ;  that  its  ^oveniors  consist 
indeed  of  a  great  number  oi  illustrious  names 
and  reverend  characters,  but  whose  different 
labours  and  destinations  in  the  most  import- 
ant offices  of  civil  life  rendered  a  deputation 
indispensably  necessary  for  the  ordinary  so- 
vemraent  oi  the  Hospital ;  that  the  difficiuty 
of  convening  this  splendid  corporation  had 
gradually  brought  the  management  of  its  af- 
fairs more  particularly  under  the  direction  of 
the  Admiralty  ;  that  a  new  charter  has  been 
surreptitiously  obtained,  in  repugnance  to  the 
origmal  institution,  which  enlarges  and  con- 
firms that  dependence ;  that  the  present  first 
lord  of  the  Admiralty  (who  lor  reasons 
sufficiently  obvious,  does  not  appear  pubhdy 
in  this  prosecution)  has,  to  serve  the  base  mi 


53]  ruptcting  the  Royal  Hospital  at  GrefnmcL  A.  D.  1?78« 


m 


watibless  purposes  of  corruption,  InUoduced 
his  prastitutea  freeholders  of  Huntingdon  into 
fbces  destined  for  the  honest  freeholders  of 
the  seas  ;  that  these  men  (among  whom  are 
the  prosecutors^  are  not  only  landmen,  in 
ddjance  of  the  charter,  and  wholly  dependent 
op  the  Admiralty  in  their  views  and  situar 
tioQs,  but,  to  the  reproach  of  all  order  and 
goTemmenty  are  suitered  to  act  as  directors 
and  officers  of  Greenwich,  whdle  they  t/ienh- 
«Aw»hold  the  very  subordinate  offices,  th^ 
cmUrol  of  which  is  the  object  of  that  direo- 
tion ;  and  inferring  from  thence  (as  a  general 
proposition)  that  men  in  such  situations  can- 
no^  as  human  nature  is  am^itituted,  act  with 
that  freedom  and  singleness  which  their  duty 
requires,  he  justly  attributes  to  these  causes 
the  grievances  which  his  gallant  brethren 
actuuly  suffer,  and  wbich  are  the  generous 
subject  of  his  complaint. 

He  has  written  this,  my  lord,  not  to  'the 
jMie  at  large,  which  has  no  jurisdiction 
lo  reform  the  abuses  he  aimplains  of^  but  tp 
tkote  imfy  whose  express  duty  it  is  to  hear  ajod 
to  correct  them,  and  I  trust  they  wUl  be 
solemnly  heard  and  corrected.  He  has  not 
pcBLiSH£o,  but  only  distributed  his  boolc 
among  the  governors,  to  produce  inquiry  aod 
not  to  calumniate. 

The  motive  which  ikduced  him  to  write, 
and  to  which  I  shall  by  and  by  claim  the 
more  particular  attention  of  the  Court,  yrs» 
to  prooiice  reformation ;  a  reformation  which 
it  was  his  most  pointed  dutv^to  attempt, 
which  he  has  laboured  with  the  most  ino^ 
fatigable  zeal  to  accomplish,  and  against 
which  every  other  channel  was  blocked  up. 

My  lord,  I  will  point  to  the  proof  of  all 
this :  I  will  show  your  lordship  that  it  was 
his  duty  lo  investigate ;  that  the  abuses. he 
has  investigated  do  really  exbt,  and  arise 
from  the  ascribed  causes ;  that  he  has  pre- 
sented them  to  a  competent  jurisdiction,  and 
not  to  the  public ;  and  that  he  was  under  the 
indispensable  necessity  of  taking  thie  s^ep  l^e 
has  done  to  save  Greenwich  Hospital  nom 
ruin. 

Your  lordship  will  observe,  by  this  suImU- 
vision,  that  I  ao  not  wbh  to  form  a  specious 
desultory  defence:  'because,  feeling  that 
every  link  of  such  sub-division  will  in  the  in- 
vestigiatioa  produce  both  law  and  fact  in  my 
&vour^  I  have  spread  tlie  subject  open  be- 
fine  the  eye  of  the  Court,  and  invite  the 
strictest  scrutiny.  Your  lordship  will  lik^ 
wise  observe  by  this  arrangement,  that  I 
mean  to  confine  myself  to  the  general  linf  s 
4)f  his  delence :  the  various  affidavits  have 
already  been  so  s^bly  and  judiciously  com- 
mented on  by  my  learned  l^wiers,  to  whom  I 
am  sure  captain  Baillie  must  ever  feel  him- 
self under  the  highest  obligations,  that  poy 
duty  has  become  narrowed  to  the  province 
ttf  throwing  his  defence  within  the  closest 
corooassy  tmit  it  may  leave  a  dibtiAct  and  de- 
dded  impression. 

.4nd  lirst,  as  |p  iU  beii\g  bis  Pftrtigifuhr 


duty  to  enquire  into  the  different  matter^ 
which  are  the  subject  of  his  publication,  and 
of  the  prosecutors'  complaint :  I  believe,  my 
lords,  I  need  say  little  on  this  head  to  con^* 
vince  your  lordships,  who  are  vourselves  go« 
vernors  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  that  thede** 
fcndant,  in  the  double  capacity  of  lieutenanl 

governor  and  director,  is  most  indispensably 
ound  to  superintend  ever^  thing  that  can 
affect  the  prosperity  of  the  institution,  either 
in  internal  economy,  or  appropriation  of  re^' 
venue ;  but  I  cannot  help  reading  two  copies 
of  letters  from  the  Admiralty  m  the  year 
1742  ;  I  read  tliem  from  the  publication,  be-^ 
cause  their  authenticity  is  sworn  to  by  the 
defendant  in  his  affidavit ;  and  I  read  them 
to  show  the  sense  of  that  board  with  regard 
to  the  right  of  enquiry  and  complaint  in  all 
officers  M  the  Hospital,  even  in  the  depart* 
ments  not  allotted  to  them  by  their  coznmis-' 
sions. 

"To  Sir  John  Jevninos,  Governor  of  Green^ 

wich  Hospital. 

"  Admiralty-office,  April  19, 1748. 
^*  Sir ;  The  directors  of  Greenwich  Hospi^ 
tal  having  acquainted  my  lords  commis* 
sioners  of  the  Admiralty,  upon  complaint 
made  to  them,  that  the  men  have  been  de^ 
frauded  of  part  of  their  just  allowance  of 
broth  and  pease-soup,  by  the  smallnessof  the 
pewter-disbes,  which  in  their  opinion  have 
been  artificially  beaten  fiat,  ana  that  there 
are  other  frauds  and  abuses  attending  this 
affiiir,  to  the  prejudice  of  the  j)oor  men ;  lam 
commanded  by  their  lordships  to  desire  you 
to  call  the  officers  together  in  council,  and  t9' 
let  them  know,  that  their  lordships  think 
them  very  blameable  (or  suffering,  such  abuses 
to  be  practised,  which  could  not  have  been 
done  without  their  extre^me  indolence  in  ^ot 
looking  into  the  affairs  of  tli^s  Hospital :  tha^ 
their  own  establishment  in  Xhp  Hospital  is 
for  the  care  and  protection  pf  the  poor  men, 
and  that  it  is  their  duty  to  lopk  daily  into 
every  thing,  and  to  reme4y  every  disorder; 
and  not  to  discharge  themselves  hy  throwing 
it  upon  the  under  officers  and  servaniU;  an) 
that  their  lordships  h&ug  (de^erjcnine4  ^  89 
to  the  bottom  of  this  complaint,  do  charge 
them  to  find  out  and  Uifyvm  them  at  whose 
door  the  fraud  ought  tp  he  laidy  that  their 
lordships  ma^  five  such  directions  heretfi  aa 
they  shall  judge  proper.— I  am.  Sir,  your 
most  obedient  serva^ty        Tho.  Corbxt/' 

''  Admiralty-oAce,  Way  7tb,  1742. 

"  Sir ;  M^  lords  commissioners  of  the  Ad-r 
miraliy  having  referred  to  the  directors  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  the  report  made  by  your-< 
self  and  officers  of  the  saia  Hospital  in  cpun^ 
cil,  dated  the  S3d  jpast,  relating  to  the  ^t- 
ness  of  the  pewter  dishes  made  use  of  to  ho^i^ 
the  broth  and  pease-potU^e  served  out  to  the 
pensioners ;  the  said  directors  have  returned 
nither  a  reply,  a  copy  pf  which  I  am  ordere4 
to  send  you  f»clQS^4 »  ^^y  J^^^^  h^xiw  m^ 

D 


35] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Cau  ofCapiain  Thomas  BaUUe,  [36 


forth  s  fact  which  has  a  very  fraudulent 
appearance,  and  H  imports  little  bv  what 
means  the  dishes  became  shallow ;  but  if  it 
be  true,  what  they  assert,  that  the  dishes 
hold  but  little  more  than  half  the  quantity 
they  ought  to  do,  the  poor  men  must  have 
been  greatly  injured ;  and  the  allegations  in 
the  omcers*  report,  that  the  pensioners  have 
made  no  complaint,  does  rather  aggravate 
their  conduct,  m  suffering  the  men's  patience 
to  be  so  lon^  imposed  upon. 

*'  My  lords  commissioners  of  the  Admi^ 
ralty  do  command  me  to  express  myself  in 
such  a  manner  as  may  show  their  wrath  and 
displeasure  at  such  a  proceeding.  You  will 
please  to  communicate  this  to  the  officers  of 
the  house  in  council. 

' "  Their  lordships  do  very  well  know  that 
the  directors  have  no  power  but  in  the  mar 
nagement  of  the  revenue  and  estates  of  the 
Hospital,  and  in  carrying  on  the  works  of  the 
building,  nor  did  thev  assume  any  on  this 
occasion;  but  their  lordships  shall  always 
take  well  of  them  any  informations,  that 
tend  to  rectify  any  mistakes  or  omissions 
whatsoever,  concerning  the  state  of  the  Hos- 
pital.— I  am,  Sir,  your  most  obedient  servant, 

**  Tao.  Corbet." 

^  To  Sir  John  Jennings,  Governor 
of  Greenwich  Hospital." 

I^rom  these  passages  it  is  plain,  that  the  < 
Admiralty  then  was  sensible  of  the  danger  of 
abuses  in  so  extensive  an  institution,  that  it 
encouraged  complaints  from  all  Quarters,  and 
instantly  redressed  them ;  for  although  cor- 
ruption was  not  then  an  infant,  yet  the  idea 
of  making  a  job  of  Greenwich  Hospital  never 
entered  her  head ;  and  indeed  if  it  had,  she 
could  hardly  have  found  at  that  time  of  day, 
a  man  with  a  heart  callous  enough  to  consent 
to  such  a  scheme,  or  with  foreh^d  enough  to 
carry  it  into  public  execution. 

Secondly^  my  lord,  that  the  abuses  he  has 
investigated  do  in  truth  exist,  and  arise  from 
the  ascribed  causes. 

And,  at  the  word  tbuth,  I  must  pause  a 
little  to  consider,  how  far  it  is  a  defence  on  a 
rule  of  thb  kind,  and  what  evidence  of  the 
falsehood  of  the  supposed  libel  the  Court 
expects  from  prosecutors,  before^  it  will 
allow  the  informatidh  to  be  filed,  even  where 
110  affidavits  are  produced  by  the  defendant 
in  his  exculpation. 

That  a  libel  upon  an  individual  is  not  the 
less  so  for  being  true,  I  do  not,  under  certain 
reitrictionsy  denv  to  be  law ;  nor  is  it  neces- 
sary for  roe  to  deny  it,  because  this  is  not  a 
complaint  in  the  oaniKART  course  op  law, 
but  an  application  to  Uie  Court  to  exert  an 

XCCENTRIC,  EXTRAORDINARY,  VOLUNTARY  JU- 
RISDICTION,  BEYOND   THE  ORDINARY     COURSE 

OP  JUSTICE ;— a  jurisdiction,  which  I  am  au- 
thorized from  the  best  authority  to  say,  this 
Court  'will  not  exercise,  unless  the  prose- 
cutors come  PURE  AND  UNPOLLUTED ;  deny- 
ing upon  oath  the  tn^  of  evsiy  word  and 


sentence  which  they  complain  of  as  injuriouse 
for  although,  in  common  cases,  the  matter 
may  be  not  the  less  libellous,  because  true, 
yet  the  Court  will  not  interfere  by  informa- 
tion, for  guilty  or  even  equivocal  characters, 
but  will  leave  them  to  its  ordinary  process. 
If  the  Court  does  not  see  palpable  malice 
and  FALSEHOOD  on  the  part  of  the  defendant, 
and  clear  innocence  on  the  part  of  the  prose^ 
cutor.  it  will  not  stir; — it  will  say,  This  may 
be  a  libel ;— this  may  deserve  punishment; 
—but  go  to  a  grand  jury,  or  bring  your  ac- 
tions: all  men  are  equally  entitled  to  the 
protection  of  the  laws,  but  all  men  are  not 
equally  entitled  to  an  extraordinary  interpo- 
sition and  protection,  beyond  the  common 
distributive  forms  of  justice. 

This  is  the  true  constitutional  doctrine  of 
informations,  and  made  a  strong  impression 
upon  me,  when  delivered  by  your  lordship 
in  this  court ;  the  occasion  which  produced 
it  was  of  little  consequence,  but  the  principle 
was  important.  It  was  an  information  moved 
for  by  general  Plasto  against  the  printer  of 
the  Westminster  Gazette,  for  a  libel  publish- 
ed in  his  paper,  charging  that  gentleman, 
among  other  things,  with  having  been  tried 
at  the  Old  Bailey  for  a  felony.  The  prose- 
cutor^s  affidavit  denied  the  charges  generally 
as  foul,  scandalous,  and  false ;  hut  did  not 
traverse  the  aspersion  I  have  just  mentioned 
a$  a  tubstantive  fact ;  upon  which  your  lord* 
ship  told  the  counsel  [Mr.  Dunning],  who 
was  too  learned  to  argue  against  the  objec- 
tion^  that  the  affidavit  was  defective  in  that 
particular,  and  should  be  amended  before  the 
Court  would  even  grant  a  nilc  to  show 
cause:  for  although  such  general  denial 
would  be  sufficient  where  the  libellous  mat- 
ter consisted  of  scurrility,  insinuation,  and 
GENERAL  abusc,  which  is  no  otherwise  tra- 
versable than  by  innuendoes  of  the  import  of 
the  scandal,  and  a  denial  of  the  truth  of  it, 
yet  that  when  a  libel  consisted  of  direct 

AND   POSITIVE    PACTS   AS    CHARGES,  the  CoUTt 

required  substantive  travertet  cf  tuch  facti 
in  the  affidavit,  before  it  would' interpose  to 
take  the  matter  from  the  cognizance  of  a 
grand  jury. 

This  is  the  law  of  informations^  and  by 
this  touchstone  I  will  try  the  prosecutors' 
affidavits,  to  show  that  they  will  fall  of 
themselves,  even  witliout  that  body  of  evi- 
dence, with  which  I  can  in  a  moment  over- 
whelm them. 

If  the  defendant  be  guilty  of  anv  crime  at  all, 
it  is  for  writing  tht^  book  :  and  the  conclusion 
of  his  guilt  or  innocence  must  consequently 
depend  on  the  scope  and  desijgn  of  it,  the  gene- 
ral truth  of  it,  and  the  necessity  for  writing  it ; 
and  this  conclusion  can  no  otherwise  be  drawn^ 
than  by  taking  the  whole  of  it  together. 
Your  lordships  will  not  shut  your  eyes,  as 
these  prosecutors  expect,  to  the  design  and 
general  truth  of  the  book,  and  eo  entirely 
upon  the  intulaied  passages^  cuUea  out,  and 
set  heada  mi  p^iatf  inihoir  wratcM  aSMar 


37]        reiftedittg  the  Royal  HaspUal  ai  Greentmch.         A.  D.  177S. 


[3k 


nt%  without  context,  or  even  ao  attempt  to 

onnddJe  or  explain  their  sense,  or  bearing  on 

the  subject;  for,  my  lord,  they  have  altoge- 

Ifaer  omitted  to  traverse  the  scandalous  facts 

iboDselvesy  and  have  bnlv  laid  hold  of  those 

warm  animadversions,  which  the  recital  of 

them  naturally  produced  in  the  mind  of  an 

hooest,  zealous  man,  and  which,  besides,  are 

ID  many  places  only  conclusions  drawn  from 

&cts  as  general  propositions,  and  not  asper- 

sons  on  them  as  mdividuaJs.    And  where 

the  fzcts  do  rome  home  to  them  as  charges, 

9ot  one  of  them  is  denied  by  the  prosecutors.     I 

astert,  umlordy  that  in  the  director^  whole  qffi- 

dsvit  (which  I  have  read  repeatedly,  and  with 

the  greatest  attention)  there  is  not  any  one 

fid  mentioned  by  the  defendant  which  is  sulh 

MsMtisUy  denied  ;  and  even  when  five  or  six 

strong  and  pointed  charges  are  tacked  to  each 

other,  to  avoid' meeting  naked  truth  in  the 

teeth,  they  are  not  even  contradicted  by  the 

lump,  but  a  general  innuendo  is  pinned  to 

them  all;— a  mere  illusory  averment,  that 

the  &cts  mean  to  criminate  them,  and  that 

they  are  not  criminal;  but  the  facts  them- 

SELVES      REMAIIf      UN  ATTEMPTED      AllD      UN- 
TOrCflED. 

Thu&  my  lord,  afler  reciting  in  their  afB- 
daTit  the  charge  of  their  shameful  miscon- 
duct, in  renewing  the  contract  with  the  Hun- 
tingdon butchers,  who  had  just  compounded 
the  penalties  incurred  by  the  breach  of  a 
fermer  contract,  and  in  that  breach  of  con- 
tact, the  breach  of  every  principle  of  huma- 
nity, as  well  as  of  honesty ;  and  the  charge 
of  putting  improper  objects  of  charity  into 
the  Hospital,  while  the  lamilies  of  poor  pen- 
sioners were  excluded  and  starving ; — and  of 
screening  delinquents  from  inquiry  and  pu- 
nishment in  a  pointed  and  particular  instance, 
and  therefore  traversable  as  a  substantive /act ; 
yet  not  only  there  is  no  such  traverse,  bu^ 
though  all  these  matters  are  huddled  toge- 
ther m  a  mass,  there  is  not  even'  a  general 
denial;  but  one  loose  innuendo,  that  the 
facts  in  the  publication  are  stated  with  an 
intention  of  criminating  the  prosecutors,  and 
that,  as  far  as  they  tend  to  criminate  them, 
^ey  are  false. 

Will  this  meet  the  doctrine  laid  down  by 
your  lordship  in  the  case  of  general  Plasto  ? 
--Who  can  teU  what  they  mean  by  criminal 
lity?— Perhans  thev  think  neglect  of  duty 
not  criminal,— perhaps  they  think  corrupt 
Krvility  to  a  patron  not  criminal ;  and  that 
if  they  do  not  actively  promote  abuses,  the 
winking  at  them  is  not  crmiinal.  But  I  appeal 
to  the  Court,  whether  the  directors' whole 
uBdavit  is  not  a  cautious  composition  to 
svoid  downright  perjury,  and  yet  a  glaring 
ahsurdity  on  the  face  of  it ;  for  since  the  facts 
«w  not  traversed,  the  Court  must  intend 
them  to  exist ;  and  if  they  do  exist,  they  can- 
i»t  but  be  criminal.  Tlie  very  existence  of 
wch  abuses,  in  itself  criminates  those,  whose 
Jpos  are  to  prevent  them  from  existing. 

Voder  the  shelter  of  9uch  qualifications  of 


guilt,  no  man  in  trust  could  ever  be  crimi- 
nated. But  at  all  events,  my  lord,  since  they 
seem  to  think  that  the  facts  may  exist  with-> 
out  their  criminality, — be  it  so :  the  defers 
dant  then  does  not  wish  to  criminate  them ; 
he  wishes  only  for  effectual  inquiry  and  in- 
formation, that  there  may  be  no  longer  any 
crimes,  and  consequently  no  criminality.  But 
he  trusts,  in  the  mean  time,  and  I  likewise 
trust,  that,  while  these  facts  do  exist,  the 
Court  will  at  least  desire  the  prosecutors  to 
clear  themselves  before  the  general  council 
of  governors,  to  whom  the  writing  is  ad- 
dressed, and  not  before  any  packed  committee 
of  directors  appointed  by  a  noble  lord,  and 
then  come  back  to  the  Court  acquitted  of  all 
criminality,  or,  according  to  the  technical 
phrase,  with  clean  hands^  Tor  protection. 

^  Such  are  the  merits  of  the  affidavits  exhi- 
bited by  the  directors ;  and  the  affidavits  of 
the  other  persons  are,  without  distinction, 
subject  to  tne  same  observations.  They  are 
maae  up  either  of  feneral  propositions,  con- 
verted into  eha(i;es  by  ridiculous  innuendoes, 
or  else  of  strings  of  distinct  disjointed  facts 
tied  together,  and  explained  by  one  general 
averment ;  and  after  all — ^the  scandal,  such 
as  their  arbitrary  interpretation  makes  it,  is 
still  only  denied  with  the  old  Jesuitical  quali- 
fication of  criminality,— M«  facts  themselves 
remaining  untraversedj  and  even  untouched. 

They  are,  indeed,  every  way  worthy  of  their 
authors ; — of  Mr.  God  by,  the  good  steward, 
who,  notwithstanding  the  remonstrances  of 
the  captain  of  the  week,  received  for  the  pen- 
sioners such  food  as  would  be  rejected  by  the 
idle  vagrant  poor,  and  endeavoured  to  tamper 
with  the  cook  to  conceal  it ;  and  of  Mr.  Ihhet- 
son,  who  converted  their  wards  into  apart- 
ments for  himself,  and  the  clerks  of  clerks^  in 
the  endless  subonlination  of  idleness; — a 
wretch  who  has  dared,  with  brutal  inhumanity, 
to  strike  those  aged  men,  who  in  their  youth 
would  have  blasted  him  with  a  look.  As  to 
Mr.  Stuart  and  Mr.  Mylne,  Uiough  I  think 
them  reprehensible  for  joining  in  this  prosecu- 
tion, yet  they  are  certainly  respectable  men, 
and  not  at  all  on  a  level  with  the  rest,  nor 
has  the  defendant  so  reduced  them.  These 
two  therefore  liave  in  fact  no  cause  of  com- 
plaint, and  Heaven  knows,  the  others  have 
no  title  to  complain. 

In  this  enumeration^  of  delinquents,  the 
Rev.  Mr.  Cooke  looks  round,*  as  if  he 
thought  I  had  forgottcft  him.  lie  is  mis- 
taken ;— I  well  remembered  him  :  but  his  in- 
famy is  worn  threadbare : ,  Mr.  Murphy  has 
already  treated  him  with  that  ridicule,  which 
his  folly^  and  Mr.  Peckham  with  that  invec- 
tive, which  his  wickedness  deserves. — I  shall 

*  Ilia  pMMgo  it  uAmUA  by  the  nUaterly  Bdin- 
boq^  Reinewer  "  with  a  view  to  ihew,  that  the  coa- 
rage  which  marked  Lord  Enkijie*s  profBaaiooal  life 
was  not  aoqoired  after  the  succeM  which  rendered  it 
a  ttfe  and  a  cheap  rirtae  ;  bat,  being  natorally  in- 
herent in  the  nan,  was  displayed  at  a  moment  whea 
attended  with  ths  «oit  fonuidable  riihs." 


39] 


18  GEORGE  IIL 


I%e 


iherefore  forbear  to  taint  the  ear  of  the  Court 
further  with  his  name;— a  name  which 
would  bring  dishonour  upon  his  country  and 
its  religion,  if  human  nature  were  not  hap- 

Sily  compelled  to  bear  the  greater  part  of  the 
isgrace,  and  to  share  it  amongst  mankind. 
But  these  observations,  my  lord,  are  solely 
confined  to  the  prosecutors'  affidavits,  and 
would,  I  think,  be  fatal  to  them,  even  if  they 
stood  uncontroverted.  But  what  will  the 
Court  say,  when  ours  are  opposed  to  them, 
where  the  truth  of  every  part  is  sworn  to  by 
the  defendant  ?— What  will  the  Court  say  to 
the  collateral  circumstances  in'  support  of 
them,  where  every  material  charge  against 
the  prosecutors  is  confirmed  ? — What  will  it 
say  to  the  affidavit  that  has  been  made,  that 
no  man  can  come  safely  to  support  this  in- 
jured officer  ?— that  men  have  teen  deprived 
of  their  places,  and  exposed  to  beggary  and 
ruin,  merely  for  giving  evidence  of  aouses, 
which  have  already  by  bis  exertions  been 
proved  before  your  lordship  at  Guildhall, 
whilst  he  himself  has  been  luspended  as  a 
beacon  for  prudence  to  stand'ftloof  from ;  so 
that  in  this  unconstitutional  mode  of  trial, 
where  the  law  will  not  lend  its  process  to 
bring  in  truth  by  force^  he  might  stand  un- 
protected by  the  voluntary  oaths  of  the  only 
persons  who  could  witness  for  him*?  His 
character  has,  indeed,  in  some  measure,  broke 
through  all  this  malice :  the  love  and  vene- 
ration which  his  honest  zeal  has  justly 
cfcated,  have  enabled  him  to  produce  the 

J)roofs  which  are  filed  in  court;  but  many 
lave  hung  back,  and  one  withdrew  his  affi- 
davit, avowedly  from  the  dread  of  persecution, 
even  after  it  was  sworn  in  court.  Surely,  my 
lord,  this  evidence  of  malice  in  the  leading 
powers  of  the  Hospital  would  alone  be  suffi- 
cient to  destroy  their  testimony,  even  when 
swearing  collaterally  to  facts,  m  which  they 
were  not  themselves  interested  ;-^bow  much 
more  when  they  come  as  prosecutors,  stimu- 
lated by  resentment,  and  with  the  hope  of 
covering  their  patron's  misdemeanours  and 
their  own,  by  turning  the  tables  on  the  de- 
fendant, and  prosecutmg  him  criminally,  to 
stifle  all  necessary  inquiry  into  the  subject  of 
bis  complaints  ? 

lieutenant  Gordon,  the  first  lieutenant  of 
the  Hospital^  and  the  oldest  officer  in  the 
navy ;  lieutenant  William  Lefevre ;  lieute- 
nant Charles  Lefevre.  his  son;  Alexander 
Moore ;  lieutenant  William  Ansell ;  and  cap- 
tain Allright,  have  all  positively  sworn,  that 
a  faction  of  Luidmen  subsists  in  the  Hospital, 
a&d  that  they  do  in  their  consciences  beUeve, 
that  the  defendant  drew  upon  himself  the  re- 
sentment of  the  prosecutors,  from  his  activity 
in  correcting  this  enormous  abuse,  and  from 

*  On  the  tria)  of  a  oanse,  evtrj  person  acquainted 
xrith  an\  iacl  is  bound,  onder  pain  of  6ne  and  iiiipri- 
sonmotit,  to  attend  on  a  subpoena  to  give  evidence 
before  the  court  and  jury  ;  but  there  is  do  process 
|u  compel  any  man  to  make  aa  affidarit  befoiip  tbe 
$ouxU^Orig,  Ed. 


Case  of  Captain  Thomas  Baillie,  [<iO 

his  havme  restored  the  wards,  that  bad  b«en 
eruelly  taSen  away  firom  the  poor  old  men  : 
that  on  that  just  occasion  the  whole  body  of 
the  pensioners  surrounded  the  apartments  of 
their  governor,  to  testify  their  gratitude  with, 
acclamations,  which  sailors  never  bestow  but 
on  men  who  deserve  them.  This  simple  and 
hpnest  tribute  was  the  si^al  for  all  that  has 
followed;   the  leader  or  these  unfortunate 

Seople  was  turned  out  of  office ;  and  the  a^- 
avit  of  Charles  Smith  is  filed  in  court,  which, 
I  thank  my  God,  I  have  not  been  able  to 
read  without  tears ;— how,  indeed,  could  any 
man,  when  he  swears,  that,  for  this  cause - 
alone,  his  place  was  taken  from  him ; — that 
he  received  his  dismission  when  languishing 
with  sickness  in  the  infirmary,  the  conse* 
quence  of  which  was,  that  his  unfortunate 
wife,  and  several  of  his  helpless,  innocent 
children  died  in  want  and  misery;— the  wo- 
man  ACTUALLY    EXPIRING   AT    THE    GATES   OP 

THE  Hospital  !  That  such  wretches  should 
escape  chains  and  a  dungeon,  is  a  reproach 
to  humanity,  and  to  all  order  and  govern- 
ment ;  but  that  they  should  become  prose- 
cutors, is  a  degree  of  effirontery  that  would 
not  be  believed  by  any  man,  who  did  not  ac- 
custom himself  to  observe  the  shameless 
scenes,  which  the  monstrous  age  we  live  in 
is  every  day  producing. 

I  come  now,  itty  lord,  to  consider  to  whom 
HE  has  written. — ^This  book  is  not  pur- 
LiSHED. — It  was  not  printed  for  sale,  but  for 
the  more  commodious  distribution  among 
the  many  persons  who  are  called  upon  in 
duty  to  examine  into  its  contents.  If  the  de- 
fendant had  written  it  to  calumniate,  he 
would  have  thrown  it  abroad  among  the  mul- 
titude :  but  he  swears  he  wrote  it  for  the 
attainment  of  reformation,  and  therefore 
confined  its  circulation  to  the  proper  channel, 
till  he  saw  it  was  received  as  a  libel,  and  then 
he  even  discontinued  that  distribution,  and 
only  shewed  it  to  his  counsel  to  consider  of 
a  defence; — and  no  better  defence  can  be 
made,  than  that  the  publication  was  so 
limited. 

My  lord,  a  man  cannot  be  guilty  of  a  libel, 
who  presents  grievances  before  a  competent 
jurisdiction,  although  the  facts  he  presents 
should  be  false ;  he  may  indeed  be  indicted 
for  a  malicious  prosecution,  and  even  there  a 
probable  cause  would  protect  him,  but  he 
can  by  no  construction  oe  considers  as  a  li- 
beller. 

The  case  of  Lake  and  King,  in  1st  Levinz, 
S40,  but  which  is  better  reported  in  1st  Saun- 
ders, is  directly  in  point ;  it  was  an  action 
for  printing  a  petition  to  the  members  of  a 
committee  of  parliament,  charging  the  plain- 
tiff with  gross  hAud  in  the  execution  of  his 
office ;  I  am  aware  that  it  was  an  action  on 
the  case,  and  not  a  criminal  prosecution; 
but  I  am  prepared  to  shew  your  lordship, 
that  the  precedent  on  that  account  makes 
the  stron^r  for  us.  The  truth  of  the  matter^ 
though  part  of  the  plea^  was  not  the  point  in 


41]        rnpeding  the  koyal  HotpHai  ol  Gneimch.        A.  D.  1778. 


C4S 


contest;  the  justification  was  the  presenting 
it  to  8  proper  jurisdiction,  and  printing  it,  as 
m  this  case,  for  more  Commodious  distribu- 
tion; and  it  was  first  of  all  resolved  by  the 
court,  that  the  delivery  of  the  petition  to  all 
tbe  members  of  the  committee  was  iustifi- 
sbie;— and  that  it  was  no  libel,  wheinerthe 
maUtr  contained  were  true  or  false,  it  bting 
ao  appeal  in  a  course  of  justice,  and  because 
the  parties,  to  whom  it  was  addressed,  had 
jnrifdiction  to  determine  the  matter:   that 
the  intention  of  the  law  in  prohibiting  libels 
ins  to  restrain  men  from  making  themselves 
tfaeir  own  judges,  instead  of  referring  the 
matter  to  those,  whom  the  constitution  had 
appointed  to  determine  it ;— and  that  to  ad- 
jodge  such  reference  to  be  a  libel,  would  dis- 
courage men  from  making  their   inquiries 
vith  that  freedom  and  readiness,  which  the 
hw  allows,  and  which  the  good  of  society 
lequires.    But  it  was  objected,  he  could  not 
justify  the  priktino  ;   for,  by  that  means,  it 
was  published  to  printers  and  composers ; 
but  It  was  answered,  and  resolved  oy  the 
whole  court,  that  the  printing,  with  intent  to 
distribute  them  among  the  members  of  the  com- 
iadfee,was  lesal ;  and  that  the  making  many 
eopics  by  clerKs,  would  have  made  the  matter 
more  pvmlic.    I  said,  my  lord,  that  this  being 
an  action  on  the  case,  and  not  an  indictment 
or  inforaiation,  noade  the  stronger  for  us :  and 
I  said  so,  because  the  action  on  the  case  is  to 
redress  the  party  in  damans,  for  the  injury 
be  has  sustamed  as  an  individual,  and  wnich 
be  has  a  rieht  to  recover,  unless  the  defendant 
can  shew  mat  the  matter  is  true,  or,  as  in  this 
case,  whether  true  or  fiailse,  that  it  is  an  ap- 
peal to  justice. — ^Now,  my  lord,  if  a  defen- 
dant's right  to  appeal  to  justice,  could^  in  the 
case  of  take  ana  King,  repel  a  plaintiff's  right 
to  damages,  although  he  was  actually  damni- 
fied by  me  appeal,  how  much  more  must  it 
lepel  a  criminal  prosecution,  which  can  be 
undertaken  only  for  the  sake  of  public  justice, 
when  the  law  says,  it  is  for  the  benefit  of  pub- 
fic  justice  to  make  such  appeal?    And  that 
case  went  to    protect  even  falsehood,  and 
where  the   defendant  was  not  particularly 
caDed  upon  in  duty  as  an  indiviaual  to  ani- 
madvert:—how  much  more  shall  it  protect 
w^bo  were  bound  to  enquire,  who  have 
wntten  nothing  but  truth^  and  who  have  ad- 
dressed what  we  have  wntten  to  a  competent 
jmiadiction? 
I  come  lastly,  my  lord,  to  the  motives 

WHICH  IVDrCED   Bill   TO    WRITE. 

,Thc  g|overnment  of  Greenwich  Hospital  is 
divided  mto  three  departments :  the  council ; 
the  diiectors ;  and  the  general  governors  : 
the  defiendant  is  a  member  of  every  one  of 
these,  and  therefore  his  duty  is  universal. 
Jie  CouTf  cii.  consists  of  the  officers,  whose 
dttU  it  is  to  regulate  the  internal  economy 
JM  disctptine  of  the  house,  the  Hospital 
wing  as  it  were  a  large  man  of  war,  and  the 
cwncil its  commanders;  and  therefore,  these 
"K&i  even  by  the  present  mutilated  charter, 


I  ought  all  to  be  seamen.  Secondly,  the  di- 
rectors,  whose  duty  is  -merely  to  coni^em 
themselves  with  the  appropriation  of  the  re- 
venue, in  Contracting  for  and  superintending 
supphes,  and  in  keeping  up  the  structure  m 
the  Hospital ;  and  lastly,  the  general  court  of 
governors,  Consisting  of  almost  every  man  in 
the  kingdom  with  a  sounding  name  of  office: 
a  mere  nullity,  on  the  members  of  which  no 
blame  of  neglect  can  possibly  be  laid ;  for  the 
'Hospital  might  as  well  have  been  placed 
under  the  tuition  of  the  fixed  stars,  as  under 
so  many  illustrious  persons,  in  different  and 
distant  departments.  From  the  council^ 
therefore,  appeals  and  complaints  formerly 
la^r  at  the  Admiralty,  the  directors  having 
quite  a  separate  duty ;  and,  as  I  have 
shown  the  Court,  the  Admiralty  encouraged 
complaints  of  abuses,  and  redressed  them. 
But  since  the  administration  of  the  present 
first  lord,  the  face  of  things  has  changed.  I 
trust  it  will  be  observed,  tnat  I  do  not  go  out 
of  the  affidavit  to  seek  to  calumniate :  my  re^ 
spcct  for  the  Court  would  prevent  me,  though 
my  respect  for  the  said  first  lord  might  not. 
But  the  very  foundation  of  my  client's  defence 
depending  on  this  matter,  I  must  take  the 
liberty  to  point  it  out  to  the  Court. 

The  Admiralty  having  placed  several  land- 
men in  the  offices  that  form  the  council,  a 
minority  is  oflen  artificially  secured  there ; 
and  when  abuses  are  too  flagrant  to  be  passed 
over  in  the  face  of  day,  they  carry  their  appeal 
to  the  directors,  instead  of  the  Admiralty, 
where,  from  the  very  nature  of  man,  in  a 
much  more  perfect  state  than  the  prosecu- 
tors, they  are  sure  to  be  rejected  or  slurred 
over ;  because  tnese  acting  directors  themselves 
are  not  only  under  the  same  influenoe  with 
the  complainants,  but  the  subjects  of  the  ap- 
peals are  most  frequently  the  fmits  of  their 
own  active  delinquencies,  or  at  least  the  con- 
sequence of  their  own  neglects.  By  this  ma- 
ncBuvre  the  Admiralty  is  secured  from  hear- 
ing complaints,  and  the  first  lord,  when  any" 
comes  as  formerly  from  an  individual,  answers 
with  a  perfect  composure  of  muscle,  that  it  it 
coram  nonjudice ;  it  does  not  come  thfoush 
the  directors.  The  defendant  positively 
swears  this  to  be  true ;  he  declares  that,  in 
the  course  of  these  meetings  of  the  council, 
and  of  appeals  to  the  directors,  he  has  been 
not  only  uniformly  over-ruled,  but  insulted  aa 
governor  in  the  execution  of  his  duty  ;  and 
the  truth  of  the  abuses  which  have  been  the 
subject  of  these  appeals,  as  well  as  the  insults 
I  nave  mentioned,  are  proved  by  whole 
volumes  of  affidavits  filed  m  court,  notwith- 
standing the  numbers  who  have  been  deterred 
by  persecution  from  standing  forth  as  wit- 
nesses. 

The  defendant  also  himself  solemnly  swears 
this  to  be  true.  He  swears,  that  his  heart  was 
big  with  the  distresses  of  his  brave  brethren, 
and  that  his  conscience  called  on  him  to  give 
them  vent ;  that  he  oflen  complained ;  that 
he  repeatedly  wrote  to^  and  waitedon  lord  $ai)d»> 


43J  18  GEORGB  HL         Tke 

wicb,  \vithout  any  effect,  or  prospect  of  effect; 
and  that  at  last,  wearied  with  fruitless  exer- 
tions, and  dis^sted  with  the  insblence  of 
^  corruption  in  the  Hospital,  which  hates  him 
for  his  honesty,  he  applied  to  be  sent,  with 
all  his  wounds  and  infirmities,  upon  actual 
service  again.  The  answer  he  received  is 
worthy  of  observation;  the  first  lord  told 
him,  in  derision,  that  it  would  be  the  same 
thing  every  where  else ;  that  he  would  see 
the  same  abuses  in  a  ship ;  and  I  do  in  my 
conscience  believe  he  spoKe  the  truth,  a$/ar 
as  depended  on  hinuelf. 

What  then  was  the  defendant  to  do  in  the 
treble  capacity  of  lieutenant  governor,  of  di- 
rector, and  of  general  governor  of  the  Hos- 
pital ?  My  lord,  there  was  no  alternative  but 
to  prepare,  as  he  did,  the  statement  of  the 
abuses  for  the  other  governors,  or  to  sit  silent, 
and  let  them  continue,  ^ad  he  chosen  the 
last,  he  might  have  been  caressed  by  the 
prosecutors,  and  still  have  continued  the  first 
inhabitant  of  a  palace,  with  an  easy  indepen- 
dent fortune.  But  he  preferred  the  dictates 
of  honour,  and  fulfilled  them  at  the  expence 
of  being  discarded,  after  forty  years  gallant 
service,  covered  with  wounds,  and  vers;ing  to 
old  a^e.  Yet  he  respected  the  laws  wnile  he 
fulfilled  his  duty ;  his  object  was  reformation, 
not  reproach :  he  preferred  a  complaint,  and 
stimulated  a  regular  inquiry,  but  suspended 
the  punishment  of  public  shame  till  the  guilt 
should  be  made  manifest  by  a  trial.  He  did 
not  therefore  publish,  as  their  affidavits  false- 
ly assert,  but  onl^  preferred  a  complaint  ^ 
distribution  of  copies  to  the  governors,  which  I 
have  shoMm  the  Court,  by  the  authority  of  a 
solemn  legal  decision,  is  not  a  libel. 

Such  my  lords,  is  the  Case,  The  defendant, 
not  a  disappointed  malicious  informer,  prying 
into  official  abuses,  because  without  office 
himself,  but  himself  a  man  in  ofBce ;  not 
troublesomely  inquisitive  into  other  men's 
departments,  but  conscientiously  correcting 
his  own ;  doing  it  pursuant  to  the  rules  of 
law,  and,  what  heightens  the  character,  doing 
it  at  ,the  risk  of  his  office,  from  which  the 
effrontery  of  power  has  already  suspended  him 
without  proof  of  his  guilt ;  a  conduct  not 
only  unjust  and  illiberal,,  but  highly  disre- 
spectful to  this  Court,  whose  judges  sit  in  the 
double  capacity  of  ministers  of  the  law,  and 
governors  of  this  sacred  and  abused  institu- 
tion. Indeed,  lord  Sandwich  has,  in  my  mind, 
acted  such  a  part  ♦  ♦  *  ♦  ♦ 
»         *         *         «««*« 

[Here,  Lord  Mansfield,  observing  the  Counsel 
heated  with  his  subject,  and  growing  personal  on  ** 
the  First  Lord  of  the  Admiralty,  told  him,  that 
Lor4,  Sandwich  was  not  before  the  Court,^ 

I  know,  that  he  is  not  formally  before  the 
Court,  but,  for  that  very  reason,  I  will  bring 
him  before  the  Court :  he  has  placed  these  men 
in  the  front  of  the  battle,  in  hopes  to  escape 
under  their  shelter,  but  I  will  not  join  m 
battle  with  them;  their  vioes^ though  screwed 


Case  tf  Captain  Thomas  Baittiet  [44 

up  to  the  highest  pitch  of  human  depravity, 
are  not  of  oignity  enough  to  vindicate  the 
combat  with  me,  I  will  drag  him  to  light, 
who  ia  the  dark  mover  behind  this  scene  of 
iniquity.  I  assert,  that  the  earl  of  Sandwich 
has  but  one  road  to  escape  out  of  this  business 
without  pollution  and  oisgrace:  and'M^  isy 
by  publicly  disavowing  the  acts  of  the  prose- 
cutors, and  restoring  captain  Baillie  to  his 
command.  If  he  does  this,  then  his  offence 
will  be  no  more  than  the  too  common  one  of 
having  suffered  his  own  personal  interest  to 
prevail  oyer  his  public  ctuty,  in  placing  his 
voters  in  the  Hospital.  But  if,  on  the  con- 
trary, he  continues  to  protect  the  prosecutors, 
in  spite  of  the  evidence  of  their  guilt,  which 
has  excited  the  abhorrence  of  the  numerous 
audience  that  crowd  this  Court ;  if  he  keeps 

THIS  INJURED  MAN  SUSPENDED,  OR  DARES  TO 
TURN  THAT  SUSPENSION  INTO  A  REMOVAL,  X 
SHALL  THEN  NOT  SCRUPLE  TO  DECLARE  HIM 
AN  ACCOMPLICE  IN  THEIR  GUILT,  A  SHAME- 
/.ESS  OPPRESSOR,  A  DISGRACE  TO  HIS  RANK, 
AND    A     TRAITOR    TO     HIS     TRUST.      But,    RS   I 

should  be  very  sorry  that  Uie  fortune  of  iny 
brave  and  honourable  friend  should  depends, 
either  upon  the  exercise  of  lord  Sandwich's 
virtues,  or  the  influence  of  his  fears,  I  do  most 
earnestly  entreat  the  Court  to  mark  the 
malignant  object  of  this  prosecution,  and  to 
defeat  it :  I  beseech  you,  my  lords,  to  ooiiaider 
that  even  by  discharging  the  rule,  and  with 
costs,  the  defendant  is  neither  protected  nor 
restored.  I  trust,  therefore,  your  lordships 
will  not  rest  satisfied  with  fulfilling  your  ju- 
dicial duty,  but,  as  the  strongest  evidence  of 
foul  abuses  has,  by  accident,  come  collaterally 
before  you^  that  you  will  protect  a  brave  and 
public-spirited  officer  from  the  persecution 
this  writing  has  brought  upon  him,  and  not 
suffer  so  dreadful  an  example  to  go  abroad 
into  the  world,  as  the  ruin  of  an  upright  man^ 
for  having  faithfiilly  discharged  his  duty. 

My  lords,  this  matter  is  of  the  last  import- 
ance. I  speak  not  as  an  advocate  alone — ^I 
speak  to  you  as  a  man — as  a  member  of  a 
state,  whose  very  existence  depends  upon  her 
NAVAL  STRENGTH.  If  R misgovcmmeut  wcre to 
fall  upon  Chelsea  Hospital,  to  the  ruin  and 
discouragement  of  our  army,  it  would  be  no 
doubt  to  t)e  lamented,  yet  I  should  not  think 
it  fatal;  but  if  our  fleets  are  to  be  crippled  bj 
the  baueful  influence  of  elections,  we  are 
LOST  indeed  !  If  the  seaman,  who,  while  he 
exposes  his  body  to  fatigues  and  dangers,  look- 
ing forward  to  Greenwich  as  an  asylum  for 
infirmity  and  old  age^  sees  the  gates  of  it 
blocked  up  by  corruption,  and  hears  the  riot 
and  mirth  of  luxunous  landmen  drowning 
the  groans  and  complaints  of  the  woundef 
helpless  companions  of  hb  glory,  he  will 
tempt  the  seas  no  more ;  the  Admiralty  may 
press  HIS  BODY,  indeed^  at  the  expence  of 
numanity  and  the  constitution,  but  they  can- 
not press  his  miiui-^they  cannot  press  the  he- 
roic ardour  of  a  British  sailor ;  and  instead  of 
a  fleet  to  cair^  terror  all  round  tha  globci  tho 


- 


I 

J 


45]  respecting  the  Royal  Hospital  at  OreentoicK         A,  D.  1778. 


£46 


Admindty  may  not  much  longer  be  able  to 
amuse  us,  with  even  the  peaceable  unsub- 
stantial pageant  of  a  review  * 

FiKE  AND  IMPRISON MENT  I—The  man  de- 
serves a  PALACE  instead  of  a  prison,  who  pre- 
vents the  palace,  built  by  the  public  bounty 
of  his  country,  from  being  converted  into  ^ 
dungeon,  and  who  sacrifices  his  own  security 
to  the  interests  of  humanity  and  virtue. 

And  now^  my  lord,  I  have  done ;  but  not 
without  thanking  your  lordship  for  the  very 
indulgent  attention  I  have  received,  though 
in  so  late  a  stage  of  this  business,  and  not- 
withstanding my  great  incapacity  and  inex- 
perience. I  resign  my  client  into  your  hands, 
and  I  resign  him  with  a  well-founded  confi- 
dence and  hope :  because  that  torrent  of  cor- 
ruption, whicn  has  unhappily  overwhelmed 
every  other  part  of  the  constitution,  is,  by  the 
bks&ing  of  Providence,  stopped  here  by  the 
sacred  mdependence  of  the  judges.  I  know 
that  your  lordships  will  determine  according 
to  law  ;  and,  therefore,  if  an  information 
should  be  suflered  to  be  filed,  I  shall  bow  to 
the  sentence,  and  shall  consider  this  merito- 
rious publication  to  be  indeed  an  offence 
aeainst  the  laws  of  this*  countiy ;  but  then  I 
sEali  not  scruple  to  say,  that  it  is  high  time 
lor  every  honest  man  to  remove  himself  from 
a  country,  in  which  he  can  no  longer  do  his 
duw  to  the  public  with  safety ;  where  cruelty 
and  inhumanity  are  suffered  to  impeach  vir- 
tue, and  where  vice  passes  through  a  court  of 
justice  unpunished  and  unreproved. 

Mr.  SoUeUor  General^  (leading  Counsel  for 
the  Prosecutors :) 

Please  your  lordship  to  favour  me  on  the 
part  of  the  proseaitors,  who  have  had  no  op- 
portunity whatsoever  of  answering  the  affi- 
davits, particularly  those  gainst  wnom,  if  I 
am  able  to  judfe  of  the  af&lavits  in  the  cur- 
sory manner  I  beard  them,  the  whole  attack 
is  levelled.  My  lord,  the  application  is  made 
to  your  lordship  by  people  m  public  offices, 
and  have  the  honour  of  executing  these  pub- 
lic trusts.  They  conceive  themselves  calum- 
niated by  this  paper,  which  I  shall  presume 
to  call  a  ubel — and  a  libel  it  is  in  every  sense 
of  the  law.  My  lord,  the  application  is 
against  a  person,  who  has  taken  upon  him- 
self to  state  to  your  lordshios  the  several  ser- 
vices he  has  been  in,  whicii  made  no  part  of 
the  business  before  the  court,  but  upon  that 
sabject  your  lordships  have  heard  much,  in 
this  motion  that  was  stated  by  Mr;  Baillie. 
It  is  stated,  the  directors  are  to  have  lOf.  a 
time  for  their  attendance,  but  I  contend  ^ere 
is  no  clause  in  the  charter,  nor  any  bye  laws, 
which  regulate  that  time ;  the  intimation  is, 
that  it  is  expected  they  will  all  attend  con- 
ilantly.  notwithstanding  which  there  are  se- 
veral directors  who  generally  constitute  a 
board,  for  which  they  receive  lOs.  as  a  gratuity. 

*  IWre  bad  joit  before  bMo  a  osTal  r«ricw  at 
PbrtMaoBlb.    OHjp.  Ed. 


I  did  not  hear  that  it  had  been  sworn  by  cap- 
tain BaiUie,  that  he,  as  a  member  of  this 
board,  has  not  as  constantly  as  any  one  re- 
ceived this  lOs.  a  day,  which  he  conceives  to 
be  totally  against  the  i^irit  of  the  charter; 
he  has  not  said  in  his  affidavit,  or  hinted,  it  is 
not  in  the  charter;  though  he  condemns  tht 
practice,  he  does  not  deny,  that  he  has  not 
most  regularly  accepted  of  xOs.  for  his  attend- 
ance.* Mr.  Baillie  making  one  of  this  board, 
is  of  opinion,  that  on  every  motion  (unless  it 
id  to  make  the  same  motion  he  wishes  to  have 
adopted,  and  which  does  not  succeed)  those 
that  constituted  the  board,  were  not  left  to 
decide  upon  it,  but  vote  by  directions  they 
received.  What  evidence  is  there  of  this, 
which  is  charged  imon  the  directors  of  tht 
board  ?  What  proof  nas  captain  Baillie  given, 
that  there  is  a  foundation  tor  that  imputation 
upon  them :  and  yet  they  very  wisely  slipped 
over  where  the  charge  in  the  first  part  of  the 
affidavit  began,  with  the  particulars  respecting 
one  person  only ;  but  here  is  a  direct  chalrge 
upon  every  member  of  this  board,  except  ivfr^ 
Baillie  himself,  that  in  eiving  their  judgment 
upon  the  deliberations  neld  by  that  board, 
they  went  by  directions  they  recdved  fiom 
othersy  and  every  vote  they  jgive,  b  not  a  vote 
that  in  conscience  thev  ought  to  give,  but  an 
implicit  obedience  to  the  dictates  of  somebody 
else.  Can  a  neater  imputation  be  thrown 
upon  any  boara,  authorized  to  act  upon  their 
own  judgment  ?  and  yet  this  is  a  direct  charge 
in  this  book  by  Mr.  Baillie,  w1m>  is  a  director. 
This  will  tend  to  shew^  whether  this  book  was 
meant  to  redress  grievances  or  not.  One 
g[reat  charge  too,  is,  there  are  landmen  in  this 
situation,  who  are  reprobated  by  the  very 
terms  of  the  chiurter.  Mr.  Murphy,  from  his 
knowledge,  said  he  knew  of  the  number  of 
officers  of  S7  landmen  and  only  32  sea  officers. 
With  respect  to  the  landmen  in  the  several 
deparfenentsofthis  charity,  there  is  and  even 
must  be  some,  if  they  have  no  other  persons 
qualified.  There  are  many  offices  which  musf 
be  the  particular  business  of  landmen,  as  their 
educations  enable  them  to  discharge  the  du- 
ties of  their  iVinctions,  which  is  absolutely  ne- 
cessary. But  Mr.  BailUe  thinks  the  descrip- 
tion is  that  they  should  be  seamen,  who  have, 
served  for  many  years,  or  have  lost  tiieir  limbs, 
that  they  are  the  proper  persons  to  execute 
this  office.  He  is  so  kind  as  to  say  the  clerk 
of  the  works  may  not  perhaps  be  a  scaring 
man.  And  also  the  surveyor,  who  is  to  do 
their  works,  and  make  the  estimates  of  theb: 
buildings,  to  phm  them,  and  to  propose  their 
contracts  ana  their  alterations,  trom  time  to 
time :  these  probably  may  be  landmen— «nd 
vet  these  offices  are  as  much  within  the  prohi- 
bition as  any  other.  Mr.  Mylne  is  supposed 
not  to  be  particularly  attacked  in  this  book,  as 

*  Gftptain  Bafllie  did  oerer  receive  hit  10«.  bat 
for  every  actaal  attendance :  what  he  haa  oompldncd 
of  is,  that  aeveral  of  the  directors  retire  as  soea  as 
their  aaaies  are  taken  devra,    Orig^  EtL 


47] 


18  GEORGE  IlL  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaUlie,  [48 


Mr.  Erskine  save,  but  in  general  he  has  mis» 
behaved  himselfy  and  therefore  he  wonders  he 
should  be  amongst  those  who  have  thought 
fit  to  complain  to  this  court.  There  are  o& 
cers  too  that  ai«  called  landmen,  mere  clerks 
in  office,  those  whose  duty  reqiure  them  to  be 
landmen— he  has  taken  the  clerks  in  office, 
and  Mr.  Mylne  and  others,  who  are  to  consti- 
tute the  number  stated ;  though  Mr.  Mylne 
may  not  be  a  particular  person  alluded  to,  yet 
he  may  be  of  the  number. 

Court,  1  don,'t  know  any  affidavit  that 
atates  it. 

Mr.  Solicitor  General,  I  have  not  seen  the 
affidavits:  your  lordship  knows, there  was 
such  a  noise  in  court  at  the  time  they  were 
read,  it  was  impossible  to  disUneuish  some 
parts  of  the  affiaavit.  I  believe  the  meaning 
of  the  affidavit  comprehends  all  these  men, 
who  from  their  several  fiinctions  in  the  Hos- 
pital must  be  of  the  same  description. 

My  lord,  the  reverend  Mr.  Cooke  is  ano- 
ther person,  who  is  the  first  chaplsdn  to  this 
Hospital,  who  has  suffered  so  very  much  in 
the  business,  Mr.  Erskine,  out  of  compassion 
to  him,  would  say  nothing  more  upon  the 
subject ;  but  from  the  ridicule  of  one  gentle- 
man, and  the  invective  of  another,  he  has  al- 
ready had  his  share  of  the  abuse.  As  to  the 
ridicule  or  invective,  if  any  answer  is  to  be 

f'lven,  it  is  to  be  left  to  Mr.  Cooke  himself, 
can  only  tnswer  to  those  particular  narts 
that  respect  his  duty  here,  and  the  subject 
matter  the  Court  is  to  enqun^  into/  Mr. 
Cooke  is  charged  in  thb  pamphlet  with  hav- 
ing purchased  a  seat  at  this  board,  and  with 
having  bargained  for  this  place  of  chaplain, 
under  the  sanction  of  the  first  lord  of  the  Ad- 
miralty. My  lord,  these  are  not  places  pur->- 
chasea ;  a  directorship  is  not  a  place  for  pur- 
chase ;  it  must  be  exercised,  at  least,  it  ought 
to  be  eicercised  by  persons  appointed,  upon 
the  consideration  of  the  abilities  aad  situa- 
tion of  the  person  who  can  or  cannot  attend 
the  duties  of  this  Hosmtal,  and  discfaare^ 
^em.  Though  I  don't  know  it,  at  least  it 
has  not  been  stated  by  the  counsel,  and,  I 
presume,  there  is  nothuig  in  the  affidavits  to 
prove  any  such  transaction  ever  happened,  as 
that  Mr.  Cooke  oorchased  a  seat  at  this 
board,  or  bargained  for  it  with  money. 

Mr.  Bearcroft.  My  Jord,  this  charge  is 
ix>t  denied  by  Mr.  Cooke  in  bis  affidavit 

Mr.  Solicitor  General.  But  it  is  said,  he  is 
an  unfit  person  to  apply  to  your  lordship. 
With  respect  to  Mr.  Cooke,  there  is  another 
objection  made  to  him,  wfatch  J  should  have 
thought  did  not  oome  within  the  qualifica- 
tions necessary,  by  the  tenns  of  the  charter : 
the  objection  is,  he  happens  to  be  a  Hunting- 
donshire man  and  a  landman.  And  it  seems 
4h6  industrv  «f  Mr.  Bsdttie,  who  says,  there 
are  a  number  of  them  freeholders  or  bur- 
gesses of  Huntingdon,  has  found  out  that 
there  are  three  or  Tour  of  them  officers  of  the 
JSospitaL  I  do  not  know  the  affidavits  go 
ivther— that  tbey  ase  fiBeholders  or  m- 


gesses  of  the  county  of  Huntingdon.  Mr. 
Godby,  the  steward,  is  charged  with  having 
connived  with  a  Mr.  Melli«),  in  imposing 
upon  the  Hospital  ia  the  most  cruel  manner, 
respecting  the  poor  pensioners  within  it. 
That  the  Hospital,  in  the  most  hooourable 
way,  contracted  for  the  best,  provisions  they 
could  be  furnished  with,  their  intentions 
were  defeated  by  the  criminal  corrupt  con- 
nivance of  Godby  with  Mellisfa,  that  instead 
of  the  best  ox  beef  there  was  bull  beef,  and 
ram  mutton  instead  of  wether.  Then  there 
is  a  charge  against  somebody,  I  don't  know 
against  whom  it  is  meant,  for  compounding 
the  penalties ;  I  presume  the  court  of  direo- 
tors,  against  whom  the  charge  is  meant,  for 
compounding  this  offence  with  Mellish,  afler 
his  being  convicted  before  your  lordship  once 
in  an  action ;  afterwards  another  fu^tion  was 
brought,  and  he  would  again  have  been  oon- 
victed,  but  the  penalties  were  again  com- 
pounded, to  the  aissatisfaction  of  Mr.  Baillie 
and  others,  who  expected  he  would  be  se^ 
verely  punished.  With  respect  to  that  most 
criminal  connivance  of  Godby,  there  is  not, 
as  I  conceive,  the  least  evidence  U)  support  it 
in  truth,  I  speak  now  from  some:  knowledge 
I  have  upon  the  subject,  there  was  no  sudi 
imputation  of  a  cruiie  upon  him  at  the 
trial.* 

My  lord,  that  action  against  Mellish  mav 
be  in  the  memoiy  of  your  lordship,  which 
was  brought  by  the  order  of  the  court  of  di- 
rectors, wnen  a  verdict  was  found  against  him 
upon  the  several  breaches  assigned  m  that  ac- 
tion against  the  bond,  which  expresslv  obliged 
him  to  furnish  meat,  according  to  me  stipu- 
lated contract  and  prices.  It  appeared,  he 
had  mixed  it  with  oull-beef,  in  such  a  way, 
that  to  the  eye  it  would  deceive  m^ny  people 
and  judges,  he  had  contrived  it  in  so  tauou- 
lent  a.  manner,  but  the  truth  came  out ;  there 
wroae  complaints  all  was  not  rieht;  upon 
which  they  appointed  the  meat  to  oe  inspect-' 
ed,  and  particularly  examined  b^  boiling,  to 
detect  this  abuse ;  they  did  try  it,  in  conse^ 

Sience  of  which  there  was  a  conviction  of 
ellish ;  though  there  was  a  great  many  pe- 
nalties sued  for,  they  did  not  take  any  other 
but  what  they  thought  they  had  evidence  of; 
it  stood  in  your  lordship's  paper,  and  there 
was  some  talk  of  delaying  the  cause,  when  it 
was  mentioned  that  it  was  made  up. 

Since  that  action  was  brougjht,  there  has 
not  been  ^e  least  complaint,  and  the  last  ac- 
tion was  for  breaches  of  a  contract  that  had 
been  made  before  the  bringing  the  first  ao- 
tion;  since  the  action,  meat  has  been  delivered 
according  to  the  contract,  and  there  has  been 
no  ol^^ection. 

This  man  was  willing  to  sabmit  himself  to 
^he  /direclots,  and  at  last  it  ended,  upon  the 

*  Upon  the  Irid  it  wu  obmrrod  bj  the  jnAge, 
that  the  inpodtioii  could  not  havs  happened*  bat 
fronifas  iAOffanoe  sr  owmplisn  of  Dmb  xeottnag 
oAoork     Grig,  Ed, 


19]        mpeeiing  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Greenwich.         A.  D.  1778. 


[50 


man  making  a  submission^  which  was  a  mat- 
ter as  proper  for  the  ctirectors  to  animadvert 
iqN>ii,  as  any  men  whatsoever :  his  crime  was 
compounded,  upon  what  terms  Mr.  Baillie 
does  not  state,  nor  do  I  know  any  thing  more, 
than  that  it  was  stated  in  the  way  I  have  now 
sUted. 

One  great  charge  against  the  directors  was,, 
this  man  was  permitted  to  contract  with  them 
again.    Mt  lord,  firom  the  time  of  that  action, 
has  there  been  any  breach  of  contract  ?  Mr. 
BaiUie  does  not  pretend  there  was  any. 
Capt  Baillie.  An  hundred  times.    . 
Bfr.  Solicitor  General.  There  is  no  such 
thing  in  the  affidavit,  that  I  know  of;  the  mo- 
deration of  captain  BailUe  convinces  me  of 
nothins  but  that  the  directots  acted   upon 
neat  ^liberation  and  full  eitamination ;  but 
I  see  there  is  no  objection  stated  in  the  book, 
nor  is  there  any  affidavit  of  the  kind. 

It  b  said  there  was  no  advertisement  to  de- 
liver in  any  proposals,  I  did  not  hear  it  was 
sworn  in  the  affidavit;  but  the  contrary  is 
true,  and  that  Mellish  delivered  in  proposals 
more  reasonable  than  any  body  else. 

He  now  receives  a  certain  sum  from  the 
victualling  office,  and  they  have  found  his 
ability  b  such  he  can  perform  the  contracts 
within  the  time  and  can  serve  them  in  as  good 
a  way  as  any. 

It  is  certain  the  Hospital  brought  actions 
gainst  him,  and  foimd  him  guilty  of  frauds, 
but  there  is  no  pretence  to  say  it  since  this 
new  contract.  Mr.  Baillie  does  not  mention 
there  has  been  any  fraud  committed  siuce, 
and  yet  this  is  the  charge  upon  the  directors, 
that  th^  have  since  contracted  with  a  man 
that  had  been  convicted  of  fraud. 

F4very  body  conceives  from  a  charge  of  this 
kind,  from  the  manner  expressed  here,  Mel- 
lish  has  a  corrupt  influence  in  the  court  of  di- 
rectors, and  a  preference  before  every  bodv 
else,  in  the  maimer  stated  to  your  lordship  it 
is  shewing  the  directors  had  the  worst  of  mo- 
tives for  contracting  with  a  man  whom  they 
knew  would  be  guilty  of  frauds  upon  the  con- 
stitution of  the  Hospital,  or  else  it  meant  no- 
thing, and  Mr.  Baillie  would  not  have  insert- 
ed it  without  some  meaning  or  other. 

Then,  my  lord,  there  is  a  charge  upon  one 
EAis,  that  he  got  into  debt  with  Uie  Hospital 
to  the  amount  of  about  three  or  four  thousand 
pounds  of  the  charity  money,  and  he  ab- 
sconded with  part  of  their  money,  nothing  is 
more  true  than  that  it  g<^t  into  his  hands,  and 
he  absconded,  and  they  have  never  got  the 
money. 

And  what  is  a  more  serious  truth,  they 
have  no  chance  of  getting  their  money,  be- 
cause Ellb  at  the  time  he  was  found  out  in 
thb  business  was  not  worth  a  shilling ;  re- 
specting this  your  lordship  knows  that  the 
kpard  necessarily  advised  vFith  people  for  the 
direction  of  a  business  of  this  kind  of  the  law ; 
Md  in  tmth  it  appears  the  moment  his  detec- 
tion was  laid  before  a  proper  officer  to  prose- 
vdft,  Biiia  disapfieared. 
VOL  XXL 


And  this  is  charged  as  a  criminal  neglect 
upon  the  part  of  tne  directors,  in  sufferinjg 
Ellis-to  abscond  with  so  much  money  in  his 
hands,  or  which  he  had  embezzled ;  these  are 
charges  that  are  made  in  this  book  against 
the  directors  that  generally  constitute  the 
board. 

A  story  w^  told  you  of  one  Huggin,  Mr. 
Mylne's  labourer,  that  made  no  part  of  the 
business,  I  believe  it  was  not  sworn  to,  I  took 
it  from  Mr.  Murphy's  stating  some  action^ 
which  brought  about  a  dispute  of  a  nurse  in 
the  Hospital,  and  she  would  not  submit  her 
case  to  a  decision  of  the  council,  and  she  was 
turned  out,  and  they  add  as  a  fact  a  son  of  hers 
was  turned  out  too. 

Mr.  Baillie  has  not  assigned  the  reason  in 
his  affidavit  for  turning  out  the  son  of  thi;} 
woman,  if  he  had  I  should  have  had  no  obser- 
vation to  have  made  about  it,  but  I  have  en- 
quired about  this  business,  and  I  do  not  see  it 
makes  any  part  of  the  affidavits.  The  son 
was  turned  out  because  the  mother  had  not  a 
proper  certificate. 

The  mother  had  produced  a  forged  certi- 
ficate to  get  him  in,  this  was  in  truth  the  rea- 
son why  this  boy  was  turned  out  of  the  cha- 
rity, and  would  of  itself  be  a  sufficient  reason 
to  turn  the  woman  out  that  had  got  tl^e 
forged  certificate;  bqt  tliis  makes  no  part, 
that  I  know  of,  respecting  the  question  in  this 
case. 

As  that  was  mentioned  as  an  act  of  cruelty 
in  somebody  not  named,  I  thought  proper  "to 
take  so  much  notice  of  it  that  it  might  be  laid 
out  of  the  case. 

My  lord,  that  there  is  matter  of  libel  and 
calumny  contained  in  this  book,  not  one  of 
the  gentlemen  have  disputed,  that  a  reproach 
is  thrown  upon  the  body  of  directors^  not  one 
of  them  have  said  a  word  about. 

We  are  told  it  is  not  a  libel  though  it  were 
false— though  it  contained  calumny  of  the 
deepest  dye^  it  is  not  a  libel — Why  ?  because 
it  is  laid  before  proper  persons  in  the  ordinary 
course  of  redress,  oy  a  person  whose  duty  it 
was  to  represent  to  those  that  were  to  hear 
and  redress ;  that  was  the  position  laid  dovm ; 
the  genUemen  might  have  spared  themselves 
the  labour  of  citing  any  author  whatsoever. 

If  it  was  captain  Baillie's  dut^  to  represent 
any  abuses  or  supposed  abuses  of  this  charity, 
and  be  bad  made  that  representation  really 
and  with  intention  to  have  the  same  redress- 
ed, without  any  intention  to  calumniate  tht 
character  of  any  gentleman. 

The  gentlemen  might  have  contented 
themselves  with  that  proposition,  and  been 
sure  it  would  riot  be  opposed — Who  are  the 
officers  to  remove  them?  The  appointment  is 
in  the  Admiralty,  the  amotion  is  in  the  lords 
of  the  Admiralty  by  the  charter. 

Did  captain  Baillie  deliver  this  to  lord 
Sandwich  and  the  rest  of  the  lords  of  the  Ad- 
miralty merely  with  a  view  to  have  an  ea« 
quiry  mto  the  abuses  he  is  supposed  to  have 
exposed? 

E 


61J 


18  GEORGE  III.  Tht  due  of  Captain  Thomat  BaUMe, 


[6i 


Did  he  deliver  it  to  the  lords  of  the  Ad- 
miralty to  let  them  know  the  directors  voted 
by  some  iiifluenoe  or  other,  he  could  not  tell 
what?  Coy  Id  it  be  4ihe  purpose  of  this  book, 
framed  as  it  is  with  reBections  upon  that  first 
lord  of  the  Admiralty,  and  every  person  serv* 
ing  under  the  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty  f 

Could  it  be  imagined  this  was  done  with  a 
view  to  draw  down  an  enauiry,  and  to  have 
redress  ?  Is  it  possible  hd  snomd  abuse  those 
in  the  grossest  terms  in  whom  the  redress 
lay,  at  the  time  he  vwas  supplicating  for  re- 
dress ?* 

Ha9  he  confined  it  to  those  he  supposed 
had  the  power  of  redress,  to  the  governors  of 
the  Hospital  ?  lias  he  confined  it  to  them  ? 
No — He  says  it  is  true  I  have  delivered  it  to 
them,  but  I  have  delivered  it  to  some  friends 
of  mine. 

Court.  Only  since  the  prosecution  to  advise 
with  his  counsel,  or  a  friend  or  two  for  advice 
upon  the  prosecution. 

Mr.  Solicitor  General.  I  thought  he  con- 
lined  it  to  his  counsel. 

Court.  To  his  counsel  and  a  friend  or  two, 
and  before  he  let  any  one  person  have  it  he  de- 
livered one  to  the  first  lord  of  the  Admirally. 

Mr.  Peckham.  When  he  delivered  it  to  me, 
it  was  with  a  strict  charge  not  to  let  it  go  out 
of  my  hands  to  anv  body. 

Mr.  Just  Willes.  Cowley's  a&davit  ex- 
presses it. 

Mt,  Solicitor  General.  I  stand  corrected — 
Then  it  will  be  for  your  lordship  to  say  whe- 
ther this  could  be  the  motive  of  captain 
Baillie  in  delivering  this  book,  with  the  seve- 
ral chaises  contained  in  it,  which  were  not 
the  subject  matter  of  redress? 

In  particular,  wliat  complaint  is  there 
f^nstMr.  Stuart,  who  now  appears  before 
your  lordship  as  one  arraignea  for  having 
voted  in  the  directorship  under  the  influence 
and  the  direction  of  somebody  else :  nay  in 
being  told  his  sitting  in  the  directorship  is  in- 
competent to  him,  and  the  office  he  bears,  as 
he  was  by  that  means  to  inspect  his  own  ac- 
counts, and  be  the  judge  otthe  reasonable- 
ness of  the  articles?  Is  there  any  tbundation 
for  this? 

What  as  the  foundation  ? 

.  Mr.  Stuart  is  the  surveyor  of  all  the  works 
c^^urried  on  in  tliis  Hospital,  it  is  not  contended 
by  Mr.  BaiUie  (I  don*t  know  whether  he  piakea 
an  express  exception  of  that  in  particular)  he 
is  not  fit  for  this  duty,  or  to  judge  of  the  plans 
and  estimates  laid  before  the  Hospital. 

It  is  particularly  tiie  business  of  Mr. 
Stuart,  not  only  to  inform  himself  of  the 
{ilans  or  estimates  laid  before  them,  but  the 
utility  of  them,  and  the  axpence  with  wliich 
Ihey  are  to  be  attended. 


*  The  Lords  of  tbo  AdminiUj  make  bat  a  tmall 
fart  of  the  gorernorsand  •ommuaionen  of  the  0o»- 
f  ital.  Mr.  Solieitor  General  aays  grota  tbnie  with* 
Aot  najliig  vihaX  that  abase  was— oalj  a  plain  repM- 
•anUtioB  of  facU    Orig,  E<L 


Mr.  Stuart  \m  a  certain  annual  salary  a« 
survevor  of  the  works  of  this  Hospital,  and 
whether  there  are  more  or  Jess  is  nothing  to 
Mr.  Stuart,  but  he  is  charged  in  his  depart- 
ment  with  giving  his  opinion  upon  some  aiv 
ticles  for  the  benefit  of  other  people -^Is  there 
any  foundation  whatsoever  in  this  charge 
,  against  Mr.  Stuart,  who  is-  in  truth  an  officer 
at  an  annual  salary- ?  it  is  totally  indiffcrend 
to  him,  as  the  exuence  the  Hospital  is  p^  to, 
is  not  determlnecl  by  him,  he  is  only  to  se» 
there  is  nothing  improper  done  or  charged. 

This  is  the  nature  of  Mr.  Stuart's  situiatioD 
with  respect  to  these  cliarges  made  upon  him 
by  Mr.  iiaillie. 

W^  arc  told  too  we  are  not  within  the  or- 
dinary rule  or  course  witli  respect  to  informa- 
tions ;  and  tlie  case  of  general  Plaistow  has 
been  mentioned,  where  the  court  required  4 
particular  denial  of  one  of  the  charges,  in  ft 
paper  upon  that  general's  conduct. 

These  persons  are  charged  with  hgivvag  im* 
posed  upon  the  court  in  the  manner  set  forth  ; 
and  that  they  have  in  their  breast  a  salvo  for 
the  oath  they  have  taken»  and  that  they 
themselves  have  put  a  construction  upon  the 
articles  and  charges — and  they  swear  thej 
are  not  true  according  to  that  construction. 

Is  it  possible  to  put  that  construction  upon 
tliis  affidavit ;  or  if  an  indictment  were  pre^ 
ferred  against  them,  is  it  possible  for  any 
coi4psel  to  stand  up  and  tell  a  jury  what  they 
have  sworn  from  their  own  ideas  are  contrary 
to  the  ideas  of  every  man  upon  the  subject. 

They  conceive  the  cliarge  to  contain  that 
imputation,  wiiich  in  truth  the  directors  do 
not  deserve,  and  therefore  they  swear  they 
are  not  guilty  according  to  that  imputation. 

What  they  hav«  sworn  does  not  apply  to 
tliem  any  otherwise;  there  is  not  one  of 
them,  nor  any  counsel  of  the  bar,  would  stand, 
up  to  state  such  a  fact  before  a  jury,  and  call 
it  perjury— it  is  impossible.  I  have  stated  to 
your  iordshi{)  many  general  charges  I  have 
selected,  so  fiir  as  the  general  charges  affect 
any  one  of  them— so  fiu*  they  say  they  are  not 
guilty. 

In  the  first  place,  it  is  said  they  all  vote 
according  to  direction,  they  never  give  a  vote 
but  from  direction,  and  they  suspend  their 
vote  till  then — What  does  that  imply  ?  Oudl 
it  have  more  than  one  meaning,  which  ie 
this,  they  don't  use  their  own  judgment  as 
they  are  bound  to  do?  it  cannot  lutve  ^nj 
other  construction. 

It  is  said  tliey  have  not  ffone  into  particut- 
lars,  but  contented  themselves  in  FPftV^fig 
these  denials,  with  a  reservation  in  their  own 
mmds— from  which  reservation  they  cannot 
possibly  be  guilty  of  negury. 

I  wish  they  woula  state  to  me  that  altd^ 
native  in  any  part  which  is  applicable  to  the 
denial,  as  it  would  go  to  a  great  number  more 
of  the  general  charges  to  which  these  gentle* 
men  have  sworn  (it  is  said)  to  satisfy  the  couit 
—I  take  it  in  each  of  thep  there  is  a  denial 
sufficient,  and  no  prevarii^tiaD  whatever,  ygsr 


H]       pispGiing  the  ttoj^ai  HtapHai  at  GreEmnth.         A.  D.  1778. 

hnWp  will  consider  the  denial  and  ^e  import 

^Ifatscfavrge. 
Hat  these  are  also  pablic  officers  executing 

sfoblic  tnist;  the  Court  have  thought  any 

ofgections  beins  reported  of  people  m  such 
apadtiesy  ana  not  founded  in  ikct,  have 
fteeo  a  soffideDt  ground  to  grant  an  infor- 
mation. 

As  a  charge  upon  a  mail  in  a  public  capar 
dty^not  doing  his  duty  is  a  libel ;  in  private 
fftoe  maj  be  libeh,  as  in  the  case  of  general 
Fiaistov,  it  was  not  onlj  charging  him  with 
krbg  teen  at  the  Old  Bailey  singly,  as  Mr. 
ZrskiDe  has  sud,  but  the  facts  of  his  being 
abroad  as  a  gamester,  and  dealing  with  false 
^De,  and  many  other  particular  charges  of 
that  land  in  a  particular  company. 

The  Court  required  him  to  make,  an  afB- 
davit  of  these  articles;  that  was  what  the 
Oxot  teouired  him^  to  make  an  affidavit — 
he  complained  of  tnis  as  a  libel — the  facts 
Here  stated  with  precision  and  particularity, 
ft  he  could  not  be  under  any  difficulty  in  an- 
sivering. 

That  was  the  case  of  general  Plaistow,  but 
your  lordships  have  heard  a  great  deal  which 
passed  at  the  committee  of  enquiry,  and  that 
'It  was  a  joke,  and  the  trial  was  set  on  foot  for 
seqmtfing  Uiose  charged,  and  throwing  the 
Uame  upon  Mr.  Baillie. 

And  Mr.  Millie  states  he  went  to  the  Ad- 
mirat^tohave  this  enquired  into,  and  lord 
Sandwich  told  him  to  name  seven  out  of  the 
Sectors,  which  consist  of  twenty-fom",  some 
by  their  offices,  ss  the  governor,  lieutenants 
governor,  ancfitor,  and  treasurer,  are  directors, 
ttid  the  rest  maJce  up  twenty-four,  that  are 
appointed  by  the  Admiralty. 

Have  they  stated  the  names  of  those  ap- 
pcnnted  hy  the  Admiralty  ?  They  have  stated 
the  chaplain,  surveyor,  and  six-penny  re- 
ceiver to  be  three ;  but  have  they  stated  the 
other  seventeen?  of  what  description  they 
are  ?  how  likely  to  be  influenced  to  prostitute 
their  cbaracters  for  the  acquittal  of  ihen 
finhy  of  offences  of  this  kind  ?  the  amotions 
Ming  in  the  Admiralty,  the  first  lord  of  the 
Admiralty  wishes  he  would  appoint  seven,  as 
he  admits  in  his  hook,  and  that  many  of  them 
ire  of  irreproachable  characters.  Says  lord 
Sandwich,  do  you  name  seven  out  ot  them, 
and  I  will  send  an  authority  for  them  to  make 
^  enquiiy ;  he  wasr  to  name  seven  of  the 
&cctors  to  enquire  into  the  directors'  con- 
duct, and  of  those  several  officers  that  are  ap- 
pointed by  the  Admiralty,  who  have  a  power 
to  remove  them. 

Mr.  Baillie  in  his  book  has  injured  a  great 
Jteny  persons  of  most  irreproachable  charac- 
ters, some  of  them  men  quite  at  liberty. 
^•ys  lord  Sandwich  again,  Mr.  Baillie,  name 
•even  men  out  of  the  directors,  and  I  will 
■end  a  direction  to  them  to  enquire  into  the 
bottom  of  it  ?  No,  Sir,  says  he,  I  will  not  have 
toy  of  the  directors :  then  says  the  lord  of  the 


Adimnd^  to  hiin,  If  you  will  not  name  them, 
I  will:  he  names  sir  Meyrick  Bunrell,  Mr. 


[54 

Cus%  captain  James,  captain  Barker,  Mr. 
Wells,  captain  Reynolds,  and  Mr.  Savar^. 

Court.  I  do  not  find.  Mr.  Bearcrofl,  m  the 
present  affidavit,  any  of^ihose  directors  refer- 
red to  by  the  printed  memorial  in  the  book 
amongst  the  seven  directors  ? 

Mr.  Bearcrqft,  My  lord,  there  are  some 
of  them. 

Mr.  Solicitor  General.  Not  one  of  them 
among  the  seven  named;  and  out  of  the 
whole  number  Mr.  Baillie  might  have  taken 
an^r  seven.  He  might  have  taken  anv ;  nam^ 
whrch  you  will  out  of  ^e  body,  which  you 
know  to  consist  of  men  of  the  first  charactelh 
and  beyond  all  reproach ;  name  them  your- 
self? I  wiH  not  name  them  because  thev  are 
parties :  What  could  be  done  ?  Lord  Sandwich 
named  seven  of  those  directors,  not  one 
against  whom  there  was  any  particular  chaise, 
and  they  were  not  at  all  concerned  in  uic 
transaction  whose  general  business  it  was  to 
attend  these  meetings. 

In  every  corporation  and  a.ssembly  they 
must  be  selectea  as  these  were ;  every  body 
knows  they  must  do  all  the  business  incum- 
bent upon  the  members  t6  do ;  it  must  fall 
into  the  hands  of  those  who  attend  in  general. 

This  enquiry  was  appointed,  says  Mr.  Peck- 
ham,  but  it  was  an  illegal  oourt. 

Mr.  Peekham.  1  did  not  call  it  a  court,  but 
men  appointed  to  enquire  and  report  upon 
their  own  conduct,  not  to  give  judgment  and 
sentence  too,  they  should  nave  done  nothing 
more  than  report  to  those  who  had  that 
power. 

Court.  I  take  it  to  be  a  committee  ap- 
pointed by  the  governors;  at  a  eenend 
court  of  governors  they  were  appointed. 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  Yes,  the  court  of  governors 
a>nsist  of  a  great  number  of  gentlemen; 
seven  of  those  men  are  appointed  by  the 
court  of  governors,  and  Mr.  Baillie  might  harve 
had  the  nomination  of  them,  as  I  said  before, 
of  every  one  of  them;  he  would  not  ac- 
cruiescc;  says  lord  Sandwich,  I  will  name 
tnem :  No,  says  he,  the  governors  arc  to  name 
them. 

We  did  not  know  what  was  the  intention 
of  the  committee  to  do,  becaa<%  the  applica- 
tion to  this  Court  was  first  made ;  we  aid  not 
know  at  that  time  the  report  of  this  court  of 
enquiry. 

Court.    Not  by  the  report? 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  Yes,  oy  the  report  so  soon 
as  the  enquiry  was  over,  but  during  the  en- 
quiry, while  they  w^e  consulting  amongst 
tnemselves  about  the  report,  this 'application 
was^ade  to  the  Court,  not  waiting  till  the 
report  was  made. 

Court.  The  report  was  publicly  read  to 
Mr.  Baillie,  though  he  had  no  copy  of  it? 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  No,  not  then;  it  was  in 
August. 

Court.    The  motion  was  in  Trinity  term. 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  The  motion  was  m  Trinity 
term  for  the  information,  but  the  business  oif 
the  enquiry  was  not  over. 


65] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaUlie,  [56 


Mr.JvksX.Ashhura,  Where  was  the  use  of 
waiting  till  the  end  of  the  enquiry  ? 

Mr.  Bear  croft.  My  lord,  it  is  sworn  by  our 
affidavit,  that  the  business  of  the  meeting  of 
the  committee  was  to  consider  of  and  make 
the  report,  and  they  do  not  make  the  appli- 
cation then. 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  Mr.  Murphy  says,  to  their 
knowledge  it  was  in  August,  and  not  before. 

Court,  It  might  be  in  August,  but  on 
what  day  of  the  month  was  it  read*  in  the 
hearing  of  captain  Baillie  ? 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen,  It  certainly  was  not  read 
to  him ;  it  was  not  drawn  up ;  I  remember 
asking  the  question,  what  was  the  result  of 
the  enquiry,  and  they  said,  they  could  not 
tell. 

Court.  Something  runs  in  my  head  that  it 
was  read  to  him. 

Mr.  Bearcroft.  It  was  read  to  him,  my 
lord,  at  the  time  he  was  told  he  was  sus- 
pended. 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  It  was  read  in  the  general 
court  of  governors. 

Court.    The  report  is  the  6th  of  August. 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  It  was  read  to  Mr.  Baillie 
at  the  general  court  of  governors  of  the  Hos- 
pital, who  suspended  him  in  the  month  of 
August.  In  truth,  I  was  not  certain  to  the 
time  the  report  was  made.  I  asked  the  at- 
tornev,  when  he  came  into  court  the  last  day; 
he  told  me,  those  who  were  advised  upon  this 
business,  thought  it  not  a  proper  thing  to 
move  this  Court  till  after  the  enquiry  was 
finished,  they  thought  it  might  be  an  impro- 
per influence. 

The  gentlemen  have  over  and  over  again 
alluded  to  the  great  delay  in  the  process  of 
that  enquiry,  not  a  word  of  which  did  I  ever 
hear  a  hint  of,  till  Mr.  Bearcroft  stated  it. 

And,  that  this  gentleman  suffered  extreme- 
ly, not  only  from  the  indecent  manner  with 
wniph  those  that  constituted  tliat  committee 
treated  him  duripg  their  proceedings,  but  by 
a  gentleman  who  fortunately  is  here,  Mr. 
Morgan,  to  answer  for  himself,  and,  I  tnist, 
will  acqiiit  himself  of  every  insinuation  upon 
him  before  the  Court. 

There  is  another  part  of  the  case  which 
your  lordship  has  heard  a  great  deal  upon  in- 
deed, which  was  what  passed  subsequent  to 
this  report.  Your  lordship  has  had  an*  ac- 
count of  the  manner  in  which  this  report  was 
read,  in  what  way  it  was  received,  and  the 
consequences  that  attended  Mr.  Baillie ;  that 
he  was  dismissed  by  the  holding  up  of  hands, 
or  in  some  such  ridiculous  manner,  by  the 
meeting  of  persons  whom  they  did  not  name; 
it  was  a  meeting  of  the  governors  of  this 
Hospital. 

.  Tnis  part  of  the  case  which  has  happened 
in  August,  your  lordhhips  have  no  opportunity 
of  hearing  a  syllable  about ;  the  biismess  was 
a  subject  of  complaint,  originally  founded 
upon  affidavits  previous  to  the  transactions. 

Your  lordships  have  heard  a  great  deal  of 
fhut   which  was  stated  upon  affidavit.    Is 


there  any  person  applying  to  this  Court,  if  a 
party  in  the  transactions  alluded  to  in  August, 
that  has  a  possibihty  of  being  heard? 

Are  your  lordships  to  take  all  these  suspi- 
cions and  apprehensions  of  Mr.  Baillie,  with 
respect  to  tne  motives  for  these  transactions^ 
as  containing  imputations  upon  any  one  geiir- 
tleman } 

Court.  As  to  that  you  are  heard ;  but  as 
to  the  fact,  that  the  governors  have  exercised 
their  Judgnient  so  far  as  to  have  suspended 
him,  is  tlmt  denied  ? 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  I  only  mean  de  facto  he  is 
susnended. 

Court.  Then  de  facto  he  is  suspended ;  if 
so,  I  would  adjourn  the  consideration  of  this 
and  have  it  enquired  into. 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.    He  is  in  fact  suspended. 

Court.    That  is  all  I  wanted  to  Know. 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  As  to  the  mere  fact  of  sus*- 
pension,  they  have  had  no  opportunity  of 
being  heard  upon  it.  If  there  is  any  imputa^ 
tion  arising  upon  them  for  that,  they  have  no 
opportunity  of  answering :  to  be  sure,  I  do  not 
pretend  to  say,  that  is  not  a  material  fact  to 
De  laid  before  your  lordship  in  the  examina- 
tion of  the  business,  whether  it  is  proper  for 
your  lordship  to  proceed  or  not,  seeing  Uie 
party  has  had  some  punishment  for  this  of^ 
lence. 

I  do  not  quarrel  with  the  fact  being  stated 
to  the  Court,  but  the  manned  in  which  it  was 
stated,  and  the  animadversions  made  upon 
the  persons  that  constituted  that  Court  wnen 
the  suspension  took  place. 

This  is  a  part  of  the  case  that  cannot  be 
taken  into  consideration  at  all  more  than  the 
mere  facts  of  the  case,  and  that  the  party  has 
suffered  to  the  amount  of  600/.  a  year. 

It  may  be  so;  thiat  fact,  to  be  sure,  is  a 
very  material  consideration  for  your  lordship 
in  the  discussion  of  a  subject  of  this  kin<i^ 
when  using  that  discretionary  power  which  is 
in  the  Court. 

I  apprehend  this  business  is  within  the 
very  rule  necessary  for  informations,  as  there 
have  been  imputations  upon  a  body  of  men 
executing  this  charter  according  to  the  best 
of  their  ability  and  agreeable  to  their  con- 
sciences. 

They  are  charged  with  having  acted  by  tlie 
mandates  of  others,  and  not  only  so,  but  they 
suspended  their  vote  till  they  received  such 
directions;  and  in  other  instances,  the  seat^ 
were  bought  at  this  board,  and  if  so,  they  are 
unfit  to  come  there ;  that  they  ought  to  be 
placed  there  by  persons  in  whom  the  trust  is 
invested,  and  not  by  others;  these  are  the 
facts  charged  upon  the  directors,  and  no  anT 
swer  has  been  given  to  it. 

Therefore,  under  all  these  circumstances,  I 
trust  your  lordship  will  see  it  is  a  case  propei: 
for  the  animadversion  of  this  Court ;  it  is  a 
libel  upon  persons  in  public  stations;  it  is  in^r 
suiting  them  in  those  stations,  and  is  distin- 
guishable from  the  common  case  of  a  perso|; 
applying  for  an  information  for  a  libel. 


57]         retpeetk^  the  Royal  HaspUal  ai  Greentoich.         A.  D.  177S« 


^58 


I  submit  to  your  lordship,  here  b  such  a 
denial  of  the  chams  in  the  libel  as  ¥rill  sa- 
tis^ the  Oust ;  if  your  lordships  do  not  in- 
taierc  in  this  case,  eveiy  person's  application 
hereafler  may  be  over-nued,  though  the  ap- 
pliaticm  be  made  by  a  body  of  this  kind. 

And  thcry  may  be  told,  as  these  have  been, 
they  are  influenced  by  other  motives  than 
tfam  own  conscience  when  they  give  their 
voles;  and,  I  trust,  your  lordships  will  say, 
this  nile^  ou^ht  to  l>e  made  absolute  against 
captain  Baillie,  for  it  is  a  libel  upon  the  cha- 
racters of  mpn  that  did  not  deserve  it,  with 
an  intent  to  transmit  to  posterity  this  stigma, 
that  the  men  who  were  to  execute  this  public 
trust  did  not  act  upon  their  own  judgment,  but 
were  made  the  mstruments  of  revenge  of 
others. 

Mr.  Wewnham : 

May  it  please  your  lordship  to  favour 
me  upon  the  same  side  as  Mr.  Solicitor  Gene- 
laL  Having  attended  as  carefully  as  I  could 
to  every  thing  said  by  the  gentlemen  upon 
lht  €>tJkka  side,  I  confess^  I  was  rather  inclined 
to  think  they  were  movmg  for  an  information 
iiom  the  manner  they  defended  themselves, 
than  shewing  cause  against  this  rule. 

Tbe  gentiemen  have  all  founded  themselves 
upon  the  affidavit  of  Mr.  Baillie  as  supposing 
it  substantially  true,  and  upon  that  they  sup- 
pose ev^  abuse,  which  the  book  says  is  true, 
is  founded  in  fact,  and  that  was  the  defence 
he  meant  to  make. 

It  is  not  expected  we  should  answer  the  ri^ 
dicule  of  the  two  first  gentlemen,  the  in- 
vectives of  the  tlurd,  nor  the  florid  eloquence 
that  fell  from  Mr.  Erskine,  but  to  submit 
what  we  have  to  say  in  favour  of  the  prose- 
cutors, who  are  only  attentive  to  their  own 
character,  and  in  their  consciences  knowing 
(as  they  state)  they  are  guiltless  of  the  charges 
contained  in  the  libel. 

That  there  are  charges  against  them  was 
admitted  bv  some  of  ^e  counsel.    Mr.  Bear- 
croft  stated  some  very  severe  charges,  though 
jLhc  other  eentiemen  seemed  to  say,  there 
were  no  charges  of  a  specific  fraud  against 
>t^m.    I  do  not  know  what  charge  can  be 
more  severe  or  specific  against  any  body  of 
men^  namely,  that  for  want  of  ability  or  in- 
tegrity, they  are  unfit  any  longer  to  continue 
in  the  exercise  of  that  important  office  they 
held ;  it  is  calling  them  in  other  terms,  fools 
or  ki^ves,  or  boUi,  and  they  thought  ^t  in- 
cumbent upon  them  to  proceed  against  the 
gentleman  that  dared  to  asperse  them,  and  to 
say  the  charge  is  groundless. 

There  are  several  other  specific  charges— 
one,  that  a  great  quantity  of  prize-raoney  Mr. 
Baillie  supposed  to  be  due  for  prizes  taken  in 
the  late  war. 

Your  lordship  knows  those  prizes  unclaimed 
areeiven  by  parliament  to  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital Ue  states,  since  the  charter  that  pass- 
ed preceding  the  date  of  this  publication,  the 
i^^n  hatt  been  sg  inattentively  negli- 


gent to  the  affiiirs  of  the  Hospital,  that  nO 
steps  were  taken  to  recover  this  money ; 
whereas,  if  any  step  had  been  taken,  more 
than  forty  or  fifty  thousand  pounds  might 
have  been  recovered. 

Mr.  Baillie  must  know  steps  have  been 
taken,  and  thirty  or  forty  thousand  pounds 
has  been  recovered,  and  every  step  has  been 
taken  to  promote  a  speedy  recovery ;  and,  aa 
he  states,  these  prize^ents  were  living  at  the 
West  Indies,  it  was  necessary  to  file  a  bill  ia 
the  court  of  equity  in  Jamaica,  and  upon 
eveiT  interlocutory  order,  the  prize  a^nts  ap- 
plied to  the  privy  council.  Mr.  Baillie  knows 
that  they  applied  to  the  privy  council.  I  have 
had  the  honour  to  attend  them  upon  ten  dif- 
ferent consultations ;  I  think  they  dismissed 
the  appeal  with  costs. 

The  order  of  the  privy  council  went  as  far 
and  farther  than  they  had  ever  done  before ; 
particularly,  one  of  the  learned  judees  desired 
them  to  20  as  far  as  they  could,  ana  they  gave 
consideru>le  costs  in  the  business ;  so  they 
went  on  in  the  course  of  the  business  as  far  as 
the  court  of  chancery  in  Jamaica  would  per- 
mit them  to  proceed. 

Court.  I  hope  Xhey  always  giveinteresL 
I  always  give  it  at  Guildhall,  and  the  privy 
council  should :  I  only  give  you  an  instance 
of  a  precedent. 

Mr.  Newnham,  J  hope  they  will  ultimately 
give  interest  in  Jamaica. 

Court.  You  observe  it  was  a  case  where 
the  stents  seemed  to  be  feinting,  and  keeping 
the  money  back,  after  it  came  into  their  hands. 
Mr.  Newnh4im.  Then  with  respect  to  the 
other  instances,  particularly  the  butcher,  the 
directors  must  have  been  plaintifis,  thoum  not 
by  name,  and  it  was  not  to  be  expecteothey 
would  betray  the  cause  of  the  pensioners. 
What  was  the  opinmn  of  the  directors  ?  they 
directed  that  an  opinion  should  be  given  inw 
mediately,  and  in  decisive  terms. 

In  consequence  of  that  opinion,  a  method 
was  taken  to  prosecute  Melfish,  and  he  was 
convicted ;  and  would  have  been  convicted  a 
second  time;  but  the  directors  are  charged 
aflerwards  with  contracting  with  this  man. 

The  contract  was  open,  in  consequence  of 
public  advertisements,  and  Mellish  was  the 
lowest  bidder,  his  offer  vras  the  lowest  terms. 
Would  not  Mr.  Baillie  with  greater  propriety, 
and  more  force,  have  abuMd  the  directors 
with  want  of  attention  to  the  interest  of  the 
Hospital,  if  they  had  not  taken  the  lowest 
contract.  Is  Uiere  any  thing  to  say  of  him 
after  the  second  action  ?  He  is  staled  to  h^ 
worth  80,000/.  that  is  not  by  defirauiUng  the 
Hospital. 
Court,  He  meant  that. 
Mr.  Newnham.  He  offered  to  do  it  upon 
better  terms  than  any  body  else.  Respecting 
the  specific  terms  of  the  charges,  they  are 
found  to  be  groundless,  and  they  are  in  fact, 
and  in  terms,  positively  denied.  It  is  said,  so 
far  as  they  tend  to  criminate  the  persons 
making  the  affidavits,  they  are  falser     Otit 


m 


18  6EOROE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BailUe^  [60 


person  cannot  ^ear  wbat  relates  to  another 
peraoQ  is  false,  but  so  far  as  relates  to  himself, 
eacb  says  it  is  false. 

What  is  the  objection  to  Mr.  Stuart  ?  Is  he 
incompetent  ^  Is  he  unfit  for  the  office  of  sur- 
veyor r  afid  his  knowledge  in  the  profession 
BO  ba4  atttd  trifling,  as  not  to  make  him  worthy 
of  the  apfointment^  Is  there  any  instance  of 
the  sorU  or  any  thing  in  this  affidavit  oi  Mr. 
BeuUie  niing  any  particular  charge  upon  Mr. 
Stuart? 

I  think  it  is  the  same,  only  in  the  publica- 
tion with  respect  to  Mr.  Mylne,  it  says  he  is  a 
landman. 

That  is  not  imputable  to  the  directors.  Is  it  at 
a.11  said  or  proved,  within  the  construction  of 
this  charter,-  tliat  every  person  whatsoever, 
employed  in  the  management  of  the  Hospital, 
must  be  a  seaman  ?  Should  an  architect  and 
a  builder  be  a  seaman,  or  any  sach  persons 
who  are  paid  lor  their  particular  labour,  is  it 
incumbent  upon  them  to  be  seamen  ?  I -con- 
ceive notr;  and  what  is  stated  of  Mr.  Mylne 
being  the  clerk  of  the  works,  is  applicable  to 
other  builders,  and  they  will  not  say  the  clerk 
of  the  works  ought  to  be  a  seaman. 

Then  one  of  the  gentlemen  is  charged  with 
being  the  contriver  to  defraud  the  Hospital  of 
1/)00/.  for  cleaning  pictures,  as  Mr.  Bearcroft 
said  of  Mr.  Stuart. 

Would  TOUT,  lordship  imagine  this  was  a 
}»ainted  hall,  containing  I  do  not  know  how 
m^y  thousand  feet,  and  could  not  be  repured 
in  a  proper  manner,  under  1,000/.  or  there- 
abouts? 

It  was  stated  to  be  an  immaterial  thing  to 
the  Hospital,  whereas  in  fact  Mr.  BaiUie  is 
obliged  to  acknowledge  it  brings  in  4  or  500/. 
a  year  revenue  fbr  shewing  this  to  stran^rs. 

It  was  necessary  to  preserve  it,  and  it  does 
not  appear  Mr.  Stuart  was  in  any  degree 
ftuilty  of  the  smallest  impropriety,  or  the 
mend  he  recommended,  who  actually  has 
done  it  at  an  inferior  price  to  that  which  was 
usual. 

With  respect  to  Mr.  Cooke,  the  subject  has 
been  worn  quite  threadbare,  he  (Mr.  Cooke) 
states  the  charge  against  him  to  be  false. 

He  is  stated  as  Imving  purchased,  under  the 
sanction  of  a  particular  person,  whose  name  I 
do  not  wish  to  mention,  the  office  he  enjoys. 
Is  there  any  proof  of  it  ?  None ;  and  it  is  de- 
liied  fkitly  and  positively  by  Mr.  Cooke. 

CoMff .  Do  you  mean  that  he  gave  the  chap- 
lain that  resigned,  money  fbr  so  doing— not 
ihat  he  purchased  it,  but  gave  the  sea  chaplain 
something  to  'go  out. 

Mr.  liewnham.  It  is  stated  in  the  book  he 
purchased  the  chaplainship ;  that  he  bar- 
gained and  paid  money  for  it  under  the  sanc- 
tion of  the  nrst  lord  of'^the  Admiralty 

Mr.  Bearcrqft,  Is  that  denied  m  any  of 
your  affidavits  ? 

Mr.  Newnftnm,  I  do  not  know.  My  lord, 
it  is  made  matter  of  complaint.  I  considerea 
it  as  a  complaint  made  against  the  proseeutors, 
in  the  mAoner  the  gentleman  admitted,  that  a 


vast  number  of  landmen  found  their  way  to 
the  Hospital.    By  whose  means  ? 

Is  that  imputable  to  the  directors  ? 

Certainly  not. 

It  is  stated  however,  that  this  book  was  not 
intended  as  a  general  publication,  but  merely 
as  a  remonstrance  to  persons  competent  to 
redress  grievances,  of  wnich  it  contams  a  long 
detail ;  in  conseauence  of  which  Mr.  Baillte 
is  desirous  to  have  an  enquiry  into  their  con- 
duct, and  a  general  board  of  the  dire^ors  is 
summoned,  and  Mr.  Baillie  attends. 

To  whom  was  the  application  to  be  made 
for  redress  of  internal  grievances,  and  the  re- 
gulation of  the  house,  but  the  directors  that 
were  competent  to  interpose  ? 

Mr.  BaiUie  was  offered  to  choose  seven  of 
his  own  naming ;  he  declines  it ;  he  could 
not  decline  it  upon  account  of  none  of  them 
being  competent,  for  he  states,  that  many  per- 
sons were  of  irreproachable  character  and  ho- 
nour amongst  them,  and  there  was  no  persoft 
amongst  the  committee,  against  whom  there 
was  any  particular  charge  made. 

They  sat  seven  da^s^  and  make  a  reporfy 
which  was  subsequent,  m  point  of  time,  to  thfe 
application  to  your  lordship  for  this  rule ;  for 
tne  application  was  made  in  TrinHy-term,  thft 
report  bears 'date  in  August,  considerably 
after  the  expiration  of  that  term,  so  that 
every  thing  was  subsequent  to  that  original 
application  to  the  Court  for  an  information. 

The  prosecutors  of  this  rule  have  not  had 
the  smallest  opportunity  to  answer  in  any  r6- 
specbthe  affidavits,  and  it  rests  wholly  upon 
the  affidavit  of  Mr.  Baillie,  and  the  others, 
without  the  smallest  opportunity  of  being 
heard  agidnst  them. 

I  take  it  from  them,  that  all  the  specific 
charts  asainst  every  one  of  them  are  false ; 
and  tney  have  as  good  a  ri^ht  to  say  they  are 
false  as  they  have  to  say  they  are  true.  The 
affidavits  contradict  each  other. 

I  have  no  doubt  volumes  of  affidavits  of 
other  very  respectable  people  might  be  pro- 
duced to  contra(hct  every  one  of  the  charges 
in  the  affidavits,  and  with  respect  to  some  of 
them,  they  are  exceedingly  mistaken  and  mis- 
represented, which  is  as  much  as  decency  will 
permit  a  counsel  to  say  of  those  that  fall  kn- 
mediately  within  my  knowledge. 

But  supposing  them  all  true,  or  false,  it 
matters  not — it  is  said  it  was  only  a  complaint 
to  persons  competent  to  redress  grievances, 
ana  meant  as  a  remonstrance  or  memorial-, 
and  in  the  first  place,  it  was  not  meant  to  be 
public,  only  to  a  set  of  gentlemen  competent 
to  redress  the  grievances. 

I  do  not  think  it  is  proper  to  lessen  or  di- 
minish the  right  of  application  for  redress  of 
nievances,  to  any  persons  competent  to  re- 
lieve them ;  but  I  do  not  know  now  any  man 
presenting  a  petition  or  memorial  to  any  set 
of  men,  has  a  right  to  say,  You  are  a  pack  of 
fools  or  knaves.  If  such  a  thing  is  done,  it  is 
not  within  the  right  of  petitioning ;  that  is  mv 
idea  with  respect  to  this  pubfication.     Te 


$IJ  rupeding  the  Royal  HospUal  at  GreentvicL.        A.  D*  1778; 


[68 


wbatn  does  he  ddiver  it?  Not  to  persons  ca- 
pable of  vedres6-<-he  delivers  it  to  persons  who 
laye  no  authority  to  amove — he  tells  you  the 
directors  are  knaves;  Can  the  directors 
•move  themselves,  or  their  fellow  directors  ? 
Certainly  not :  and  therefore  it  was  not  com- 
petent to  apply  to  them  for  redress,  in  any 
VBSpecty  of  tnat  particular  grievance,  which, 
he  says,  was  occasioned  by  a  pack  of  knaves 
OF  Ibols,  having  found  their  way  into  an  hos- 
fiital  by  meenB  of  parliamentary  influence.  I 
mve  nothing  to  do  with  Uie  ground  upon 
which  tb^  were  appointed  to  the  office  tney 
^^joy?  1  know  nothung  of  it ;  but  sure  I  am, 
IfcAt  -soame  of  jthe  persons,  I  see  in  the  list  of 
the  direction,  are  directors,  that  were  in  be- 
Ibre  the  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty  had  any 
office  in  this  country.  I  believe  some  have 
been  thiete  for  thirty  years  or  more— this 
aecmed  to  be  the  great  ground  upon  which 
the  gentlemen  have  eone :  I  shall  leave  Mr. 
Morgan  to  defend  himself  in  the  way  he 
thinks  fit,  concerning  his  oonduct  at  Oreen- 
wich  Hospital ;  I  have  nothing  to  do  with  that 
pert  of  the  taoatter. 

Ctmrt,    That  is  not  kind. 
Blr.  Neamham.    I  was  not  present,  I  can- 
not say  a  syllable  upon  the  ill  language  they 
talk  off  in  respect  to  Mr.  Baillie. 

Cauri,     You  are  concerned  to  defend  an 
attack  made  upon  special  pleading. 

Mr.  Newnhinn.  I  have  nothing  to  do  with 
that  in  this  case ;  there  were  some  complaints 
4^  Mr.  Baillie's  heat,  which  has  been  conspi- 
cuous to^y;  but  we  have  nothing  to  do 
with  it;  if  they  have,  by  warmth  or  heat,  be- 
haved amiss  to  Mr.  Baillie,  I  am  persuaded, 
the  gentlemen  are  sorry  for  it ;  I  have  no 
doubt  there  was  a  sood  deal  of  ill  knouage, 
but  I  am  peFBuadea  such  langjuage  coukl  not 
have  fidlen  without  provocation.  Upon  the 
part  of  the  present  application  to  the  Court,  I 
am  to  submit  to  your  lordship  the  present 
fircsefaitors  think  themselves  aggrieved  and 
il^treated,  and  upon  that  ground  they  apply 
for  an  infiarsaation,  denying  in  a  general  way 
every  fiict  that  tends  to  criminate  them,  or 
|hat  is  made  part  of  the  charge. 

Mr.  Macdonald.  I  am  of  counsel  upon  the 
lame  side,  and  I  have  |;reat  acloiowledgments 
to  make,  and  thanks  io  express,  to  the  ^entle- 
inen  who  hf^e  gone  before  me,  for  domg,  in 
a  great  measuie,  lAy  duty  for  me ;  it  remains 
Cor  me  to  state  amongst  the  rest,  how  ex- 
tremefy  ill  Mr.  Stuart  liAS  been  treated ;.  and 
all  the  nbjections  in  the  afiklavit  of  Mr.  Bail- 
lie,  and  eveiy  other  objection  that  has  been 
made,  do  not  extend  to  the  case  of  Mr.  Stuart. 
Two  classes  of  peracmsy  architects  and  other 
officers,  have  moved  for  an  infonnatio&,  for 
bdng  cahimnialed  by  this  officer  of  the  house, 
Cflpedallj  Mr.  Stuart,  who  is  more  particu- 
hngr  ooaceroed  Mr.  Baillie  has  thought 
r,  in  a  separate  capacity,  to  affect  him  in 
and  oGcupalion  in  life.  I  shall 
before  your  lordsmp  those  passages  that 
biB> aA4 ahftw tuthe  ia  ralumraated. 


For  Mr.  Stuart  my  more  iaimediaie  addovs 
will  be ;  but  I  shakl  say  something,  with  yeiir 
lordship'ir  permission,  respecting  the  general 
point. 

It  is  very  well  worth  obeerv^tion,  and  I  in- 
quest your  lordship's  attention  to  the  season 
at  which  Mr.  Bailhe  chose  to  publish  this  ac- 
count—just  at  that  season  when  eneoumssa- 
ment  to  seamen  was  most  necessary,  and  ixff 
means  of  this  book  setting  into  their,  hands, 
or  the  examination  of  jpeo^  who  could  com- 
municate it,  your  lordship  must  see  the  con- 
sequence. Certainly  the  motive  is  clear ;  and 
the  directors,  as  individuals,  )iad  a  vei^  propiv 
motive  for  bringing  this  be^re  the  public.  It 
icertainly  tends  to  discountenance  aea^aen 
from  entering  into  his  majesty's  servioe,  if 
such  a  spirit,  a&  this  book  might  occasion, 
should  dimise  itself  amongst  such  a  body  of 
men— it  was  nartacularly  dangerous  at  that 
point  of  time,  tne  beginmng  of  March  laat :  it 
certainly  was  not  a  proper  time  to  make  siirjt 
an  aiiplication  by  publishing  such  a  book.  I 
shall  not  go  through  every  wing  that  has  been 
suggested  upon  the  other  side ;  but  it  strikes 
me,  the  gentlemen  have  siven  the  go-by  to 
the  principal  question,  and  directed  their  at- 
tack in  a  quarter  not  before  the  Court -^where 
it  is  not  my  business  to  defeiKl.  The  argu- 
ment the  gentlemen  on  Uie  other  side  went 
upon,  was  ridicule,  which  has  been  used  with 
success,  from  every  hand  that  it  came ;  and 
the  eloquence  that  has  distin^ushed  Mr. 
Erskineeave  me  great  satisfaction!  In  the 
course  of  my  life  I  never  felt  greater  pleasure 
than  in  hearing  my  old  school-fellow,  and  one 
of  the  earliest  friends  of  my  infancy,  deliver 
himself  with  such  great  ability,  ai)d  I  can  only 
say  of  him  qualis  ub  incepto,  Mr.Bearcroiitold 
y6ur  lordship  it  was  a  statement  of  facts  to  r^ 
fresh  the  memory  of  the  governors  and  direc- 
tors, and  not  meant  to  be  published  at  the 
booksellers  or  stationers  by  a  public  sale.  As 
to  public  or  private,  is  it  possiole  for  any  bodj 
that  reads  a  single  page  of  it,  or  looks  into 
any  part  of  it,  not  to  see  that  the  publication 
was  meant  for  general  inspection,  and  meant 
at  least  to  be  seen  by  idi  those  whose  rank 
and  situation  of  life  make  them  sovemors? 
and  then  it  can  hardly  be  supposed  the  ooiif- 
tents  of  it  should  not  be  perfectly  (>ublic :  aa 
to  publication  there  *is  little  doubt  it  is  to  he 
considered  as  such,  and  that  it  is  a  libel ;  as 
to  the  pubhshing  it  every  where,  though  per*- 
haps  it  is  not  so  universally  publish^  as  if 
there  had  been  a  sale  of  it ;  but  it  ;haviaig 
been  given  to  all  the  goyemors,  thei%can  be 
no  doubt  it  would  be  &iown  to  your  lo^shipi^ 
and  that  sill  the  kingdom  must  soon  know  of 
it.  It  is  said  it  does  not  charge  the  dkrectees 
with  firaud  by  any  manner  of  means.  What 
does  it  do  in  jthecaae  of  the  butcher  and  of 
Ellis  ?  If  your  lordship  turns  to  almost  any 
one  pagjein  that  book,  the  veiy  word  ^ifraudr 
occurs  in  ahnost  every  instance,  cooruptioii 
must  appear  in  the  facts  themselves ;  that  ip 
the  prindfial  idea,  and  that  an  e&tira-aubordi- 


63] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  Baillie,  |^G4 


once. 


tioninjg  the  case  of  the  Seven  Bishops  with  the 
least  £gree  of  lenity ;  it  was  upon  resisting  an 
illegal  order  which  had  been  made,  and  it 
became  the  catechism  of  almost  every  subject 
in  the  kingdom ;  it  appears  there  were  certain 
specific  acts  required  of  them  which  were  iUe- 
eal.  Was  any  specific  act  required  of  Mr. 
BailMe  ?  In^  the  next  place  what  was  said  to 
ibe  a  libel  in  them,  was  couched  in  terms 
more  decent  than  any  fh&t  ever  aopeared  be- 
fore in  the  history  of  England,  and  that  could 
not  have  been  proved  without  their  confes- 
sion, which  was  saueezed  out  of  them  by  the 
privy  council,  not  oy  any  proper  process ;  the 
names  of  the  counsel  then  were  Saunders, 
Pollexfcn,  Sommers,  and  others.  Is  this  deli- 
vered in  that  cautious  and  delicate  way? 
Does  it  contain  such  form  and  at  the  same 
time  such  proper  language  for  subjects  in  the 
exertion  of  their  duty,  with  a  due  regard  to 
the  ccmstitutiou  ?  Is  that  Mr.  Baillie*s  case  ? 
No,  on  the  contrary,  every  page  is  full  of  the 
harshest  terms ;  it  is  not  Viierely  stating  them 
as  matters  of  flippancy,  and  a  little  warmth 
which  an  honest  intention  might  naturally 
produce,  but  there  are  innumerable  passages 
expressed  in  the  strongest  terms.  Your  lord- 
ships have  the  book,  and  I  might  put  it  to  the 
test  to  see  whether  the  language  is  not  li- 
bellous. 

I  think  the  construction  put  upon  the  affi- 
davits is  denied  by  Mr.  Erskine  pointedly.  I 
have  not  any  idea  but  in  your  lordships' judg- 
ment Mr.  Stuart  falls  under  a  very  different 
description  from  the  rest;  in  so  far  as  the 
■buildings,  decorations,  and  alterations  of 
buildings  have  been  altered,  it  was  owing  to 
bad  design  that  he  says  the  buildings  have 
been  altered,  and  it  must  be  so  when  you  con- 
vert a  palace  into  an  hospital;  he  says  altera- 
tions have  been  made  because  the  number  of 
pensioners  have  been  enlarged,  and  he  denies 
any  unnecessary  works  bemg  done  with  a 
view  to  enrich  himself,  and  1^  expressly  de- 
clares all  he  has  been  concerned  with  has  been 
in  his  apprehension  necessary. 

Court.  The  charge  against  Mr.  Stuart  is,  he 
wants  to  have  it  a  palace  instead  of  an  Hos- 
pital. 

Mr.  Macdonald,  That  he  wanted  to  4o  so 
for  his  own  profit  I  think  it  is. 


nation  to  the  direction  of  others  was  the  case 
with  all  but  a  few  of  the  particular  managers 
of  the  Hospital,  some  of  whom  are  contrac- 
tors, and  then  that  the  directors  are  from 
want  of  ability  or  integrity,  imfit  to  be  direc- 
tors of  that  Hospital,  and  that  many  other 
frauds  might  be  proved ;  and  it  is  not  proved 
to  be  simply  confined' to  those  persons  who 
are  guilty  of  actual  fraud. 

But  as  for  Mr.  Murphy — to  relieve  Mr.  Bail- 
lie,  whom  they  had  frightened  with  the  terri- 
ble name  of  Mr.  Morgan  the  special  pleader, 
80  as  to  h^ve  almost  thrown  him  into  convulr 
sions, — ^he  compares  his  case  to  the  Seven 
Bishops ;  that  must  be  flattering  indeed  to 
hiin,  to  be  compared  with  seven  bishops  at 
I  should  make  an  apology  for  men- 


Court.  He  has  sworn  positively  he  did  not 
mean  that,  you  will  find  the  words  don't 
cany  it. 

Mr.  Macdonald.  The  words  in  my  appre-' 
hension  chai^  Mr.  Stuart  with  acceding  to 
the  enlargement  of  the  building  to  his  own 
profit,  and  vastly  to  the  injury  of  the  pen- 
sioners of  the  Hospital;  if  I  understand  it,  it 
charges  Mr.  Stuart 

Court.  It  charges  him  with  making  great 
rooms  instead  of  1  odgin^  for  poor  men ;  other 
people  might  be  of  a  difierent  opinion,  and  may 
think  there  should  be  a  mixture  of  both. 

Mr.  Macdonald.    Is  this  no  charge  upon 
Mr.  Stuart,  that  for  the   purpose  of  a  ^ob 
he  recommends  a  friend  to  clean  the  paint- 
ings in  the  hall  ?    he  says  a  friend  of  his 
wUl  clean  it  for  1,000/.    Is  not  that  meant 
as  an  impuftation,  when  it  is  said  it  might 
be  done  tor  250/.?    but  his  proposals  were 
sent  in  two  months  after  Mr.  Stuart's  pro-- 
position  was  accepted.     It  is    one    of  the 
most  beautiful  things  in  this  kingdom,  and  as 
to  the  equity  of  this  recommendation,  if  it 
was  to  be  done  by  the  yard  it  would  amount 
to  four  or  five  times  that  sum ;    besides  it  is 
material  into  whose  hands  it  goes  -.  it  is  not  so 
much  for  the  mere  labour  as  the  price  you  pay 
for  a  man's  art  in  the  business.     Is  it  no 
imputation  upon  Mr.  Stuart  that  he    goes 
hand  in  hand  with  such  persons  f  My  lord, 
Mr    Stuart  swears  he  did  it  not  with  any 
view  but  to  preserve  that  profitable  part  of  the 
building ;    if  it  should  be  considered  as  no 
merit,  certainly  there  is  no  foundation  for 
any  imputation,  and  in  that  case,  as  upon 
liis  part  against  Mr.  Baillie,  I  dare  sa^  he 
would  be  as  well  satisfied  if  it  is  not,  as  if  the 
information  is  filed,  if  no  merit  is  allowed, 

Srovided  there  was  no  imputation.  I  will  not 
etain  your  lordship  upon  a  subject  of  this 
sort  any  longer,  I  will  only  just  bee  leave  to 
state  to  your  lordship  the  state  of  the  suspen- 
sion of  Mr.  Baillie ;  when  so  much  confiision 
had  been  bred  in  the  Hospital  bv  these  dis»- 
putes,  and  in  some  measure  by  tne  publica- 
tion of  Mr.  Baillie,  and  when  the  Hospital 
was  in  confusion,  the  lords  of  the  Admiralty, 
finding  the  business  of  the  Hospital  almost 
stopp^,  they  thought  fit  to  suspend  Mr. 
Baillie,  only  leaving  mm  in  possession  of  his 
apartments :  in  other  cases  they  would  not. 
when  a  person  is  suspended,  have  permitted 
the  use  of  their  apartments  without  a  very 
particular  application.  There  he  remains 
still;  what  will  become  of  Mr.  Baillie  afler 
this  application,  remains  in  the  breasts  of  the 
lords  of  the  Admiralty,  the  directors  have  no- 
thing  to  do  with  the  necessity  the  lords  of  ti^e 
Admiralty  thought  themselves  under  U>  sus* 
pend  Mr.  Baillie.  At  Mr.  Bculhe's  request 
they  thought  fit  to  have  a  committee  to  en« 
quire  into  it,  this  is  appointed  by  a  general 
court,  the  persons  named  were  of  respectable 
characters;  upon  the  enquiry  being  made, 
they  make  their  report,  which  respect  them* 
selves  and  their  ownservants,  the  surveyoTi 


m 


TopeeHng  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Greenixich*  A.  D.  1778. 


[66 


tbe  dx-penny  receiver,  the  chaplain,*  and  the 
others.    How  was  it  possible  to  do  this  in  any 
other  mode  ?   The  directors  are  in  a  manner 
the  masters,  for  a  time,  of  the  servants  of  the 
Hospital,  their  good  or  ill  conduct  is  to  be 
enimined  by  them,  they  are  the  persons  to 
complain  of  abuses;   could  it  be  by  persons 
out  of  the  Hospital  a  complaint  could  be 
made  ?  Certainly  not    In  the  first  place  they 
would  not  understand  the  business;  in  the 
neit  place  it  is  said  it  was  not  proper  to  com^ 
plain  to  these  boards,  or  to  bring  it  before 
them,  for  Mr.  Baillie  says  the  directors  are 
accused,  and  they  are  not  to  be  made  judges. 
It  is  true  every  one  of  the  directors  were  ac- 
cused in  a  lump,  they  were  accused  of  .sur- 
reoderinf  their  powers  to  a  few  that  do  at- 
tend, ana  sufficing  them  to  waste  the  finances 
of  the  Hospital  in  every  way  they  could  for 
their  own  profit.     It  was  impossible  that  could 
be  the  case;  they  made  a  report  upon  this 
enquky,  and  I  tnink  they  falsify  every  part 
if  not  the  whole  of  these  charts.    My  lord, 
bow  was  it  possible  a  publication  of  this  sort 
should  make  its  appearance  at  the  Hospital, 
and  not  extend  itseltmuch  farther ;  then  pub- 
lishing it  at  such  a  critical  moment,  it  was 
readering  it  impossible  for  the  servants  of  tHe 
Hospital  to  carry  on  their  respective  business 
ID  their  departments,  when  they  were  charged 
vith  supplying  the  men  with  bad  food,  bad 
raiment,  and  every  tiling  else  wrong,  every 
species  of  charge  that  could  disgust  these  men 
that  are  entitled  to  national  protection  and 
compas^n ;    these    gentlemen    have    had 
strange  pictures  drawn  of  them,  and  some 
very  ably;   Mr.  Mylne  and  Mr.  Cooke  in 
particular.     Mr.  Mylne  is  as  ingenious  an 
artist  as  any  can  be,  and  when  Mr.  Mylne  and 
Mr.  Stuart  are  attacked  in  such  a  way  as  this, 
charged  with  such  a  breach  of  duty  to  this 
Hospital,  and  those  thinzs  imputed  to  them 
that  might   diminish   them  much   in   the 
esteem  of  every  body,  and  more  especially 
the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  has  been  treated  as  a  man 
of  his  profession  ought  not  to  be  ;    finding 
these  men  stigmatiz^  in  this  way,  it  was  im- 
possible for  the  directors  to  do  otherwise  tlian 
they  did.    Your  lordship  sees  the  hbel  itself 
isfer  beyond  any  comment  upon  it;  if  your 
lordship  sho\dd  think  it  of  an  injurious  nature 
and  libellous,  your  lordship  will  make  this  rule 
absolute,  as  the  suspension  of  Mr.  Baillie  can 
"oake  DO  difference  as  to  these  gentlemen, 
vho  are  accused  of  doing  wrong  as  members 
of  a  public  body  in  their  public  papacity. 

Mr,  Dunning  made  an  apolo^  for  troubling 
^  Court,  as  he  observed  sufficient  had  been 
»idby  the  gentlemen  before  him,  to  explain 
tl»e  ground  upon  which  they  hoped  the  rule 
would  be  mane  absolute,  ana  he  should  sp^e 
ninaself  the  trouble  of  saying  more,  as^it  would 
al  become  him  to  trespass  upon  the  time  of 

lerTaiU  of  the  Hoapital  are  a)»»  di- 


*T1ieie 
**"*»»•    Orig.  Ed, 


VOL  XXI, 


the  Court,  especially  considering  the  [opinion 
he  entertained  of  the  matter  and  abilities  the 

fentlemen  had  shewn  who  went  before  him ; 
e  should  therefore  leave  it  to  his  friend  Mr. 
Morgan,  who  stood  in  a  particular  situation  to 
explain  the  matter  more  fully  in  defence  of 
himself  and  his  cUents.* 

The  Earl  of  Mansfield  : 

There  has  ^eat  heat  appeared  upon 
this  motion,  and  this  motion  has  taken  up  a 
great  deal  of  time  unnecessarily,  and  it  is  not 
to  be  wondered  at,  for  the  arguments  have 
gone  into  a  variety  of  matter,  not  at  all  before 
the  Court,  and  have  chargecl  persons  who  are 
not  here  to  defend  themselves,  and  not  being 
here  they  have  no  opportunity  to  reply  to 
them,  upon  vague  assertions,  not  used  upon 
one  side  more  than  another.  Mr.  Morgan 
has  bee^  even  with  the  chaises  of  that  sort 
without  any  affidavit  at  all ;  but  it  is  charged 
by  affidavits  by  way  of  answer,  to  which  there 
has  been  no  opportunity  of  making  a  reply, 
'and  it  has  opened  a  large  field,  which  we  can- 
not possibly  go  into. 

This  is  an  application  for  an  information  for 
a  libel,  and  it  has  been  truly  said,  it  is  an  ap- 
plication for  an  extraordinary  interposition  of 
the  Court,  and  that  interposition  must  be 
guided  by  all  the  circumstances  of  the  appli- 
cation, and  the  answer  that  is  given  to  it. 

It  aon*t  follow  because  tfaft  matter  is  a 
libel;  it  don't  follow,  because  that  libel  is 
published,  that  therefore  this  Court  should 
grant  an  information. 

The  parties  have  a  right  to  go  to  a  grand 
jurv  by  way  of  indictment.  They  have  a 
right  to  bring  an  action;  and  therefore  the 
Court  always  weighs  the  circumstances,  and 
particularly  the  state  of  the  case  l^d  before 
them  when  the  application  is  made. 

And  it  is  expected  when  the  application  is 
made,  that  the  true  and  full  state  of  the  case 
should  be  then  laid  before  the  Court;  because 
if  there  is  that  in  it  kept  behind,  which,  if 
it  had  been  disclosed,  would  have  prevented 
the  rule  fi-om  being  made  at  all ;  all  the  ex-^ 
pence  that  is  occasioned  by  it,  is  owing  to 
those  who  have  kept  any  thing  behind. 

In  this  book,  as  it  is  called,  I  have  no  doubt 
but  there  is  a  great  deal  of  that^  which,  in  its 
own  nature,  is  defamatory  and  hbellous. 

It  charges  these  officers  with  fraud,  with 
abuse  of  office,  with  incapacity,  with  neglect- 
ing the  interest  of  the  Hospital,  and  breaking 
the  duly  of  their  trust  i  I  nave  no  doubt  but 

*  N.  B.  See  Mr.  Mor)|ran's  evidence  in  the  Hooto 
of  Lords  IB  defence  of  himself  and  client^. 

As  four  eiument  connitet  of  disUngnished  merit 
and  abilities  had  followed  each  other  on  the  part  of 
the  prosecotors,  it  it  thoaght  unnecesaar y  to  lengthen 
these  proceedings,  already  too  ToluminonSp  wiUi  tho 
speeches  of  the  rest  of  their  ooansel,  for  however 
ingcnions  their  argoventa  might  have  been,  tbet 
were  eTideoUy  onfooBded  in  iact  and  law,  tbej  aro 
therefore  omitted  for  the  si^e  of  brevity. ^On^« 
Edit, 

F. 


67] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  ofCapkin  Thomas  BaUlie, 


C0S 


that  in  its  own  nature,  many  of  the  particular 
parts  pointed  out]  bv  those  who  apply,  are  in 
their  own  nature,  defamatory  and  libellous. 
And  wit}i  regard  to  Mr.  Stuart  and  Mylne^ 
whom  captain  Baillie  vindicates  by  his  affi- 
davit, and  says,  he  never  meant  to  charge, 
personally  with  doing  any  thing  wrong ;  yet 
most  undoubtedly  there  is  an  insinuation  in 
it ;  no  man  can  read  it  that  don't  understand 
it  as  they  do. 

If  a  charge  is  made,  that  they  that  had  ac- 
coimts  to  pass,  were  sitting  as  directors;  it 
certainly  infers  they  made  a  bad  use  of  sitting 
upon  their  own  accounts. 

If  a  charge  h  made  of  the  computation 
being  much  too  large,  with  respect  to  a  man 
that  was  to  have  the  paintings  of  the  Hospital 
retouched  and  coloured  for  uie  benefit  of^the 
Isociety;  it  carries  certainly  an  inference  of 
something  wrong  and  improper  in  it. 

Tims  it  stands  in  general^  barely  upon  the 
view  of  the  subject  matter  of  this  book. 

With  regard  to  the  publication,  it  is  most 
certainly  true,  the  distinction  taken  at  the  bar 
is  sound  and  well  founded.  In  a  proceeding 
(in  a  court  of  justice)  of  the  parties^  that  are 
under  the  control  ot  the  Court,  notning  can 
be  a  libel ;  because  if  it  is  scandalous  or  im- 
proper, the  Court  where  thai  matter  is  uttered 
or  made  use  of,  have  it  in  their  power  to  re- 
primand, to  censure,  and  to  punisu. 

And  I  remember  very  well  that  case  alluded 

to  by  Mr.  Lee,  of  sir. Astley  and  Mr. 

Young;  that  was  ftn  affidavit  of  a  mktler 
which  was  scandalous  indeed,  but  it  was  a 
charge  made  use  of  seriously,  for  the  opinion 
of  the  Court,  and  read  in  a  discussion  here, 
for  a  rule  of  the  Coiut  to  be  made  upon  it. 
And  if  the  Court  had  had  a  mind  to  have 
taken  it  up,  they  might  liave  censured  the 
maker  of  the  arodavit,  or  attorney,  or  any 
one  else  concerned  in  it.  But  it  was  not  the 
subject  matter  of  an  action  or  prosecution^  if 
it  is  reaily  so  used  in  the  course  of  a  judicial, 
proceeding. 

But  if  the  course  of  proceeding  is  a  colour 
only,  I  agree  with  Mr.  Lee,  that  will  only  ag- 
gravate the  offence,  by  making  use  of  a  colour 
of  justice  to  protect  it. 

I  recollect  the  case  of  a  man,  one  Perry, 
who  was  concerned  in  the  matter  of  Dageu- 
ham  Breach :  he  printed  a  brief  in  the  coun- 
try, where  he  cnarged  his  adversary  with 
perjury  in  his  answer.  Lord  Macclesfield 
committed  him  for  it ;  that  is  not  in  a  proper 
course  of  proceeding  for  you  make  use  of  all 
the  abuse  you  can  in  your  brief  agcdnst  your 
lidversary. 

I  remember  a  cause,  where  from  the  length 
of  the'  proceedings,  it  was  thought  necessary 
jto  print  it.  The  case  of  Penn  and  Balti^iore. 
It  was  a  voluminous  brief:  all  the  counsel 
Iiad  printed  briefs  in  it.  Inat  could  not  be 
libeilous,  if  it  had  been  so  charged  upon  the 
other  side;  because  it  was  a  proceeding,  boni 
Jide,  in  the  way  of  justice,  not  a  colour  to  con* 
vey  scandal.  And  there  are  many  otlier  cases 
where  the  proceedings  have  been  printed. 


In  the  House  of  Lords  they  print  tiieir  case#. 
If  it  was  matter  of  scandal,  the  House  of 
Lords  would  animadvert  upon  that ;  ^nd  th^ 
counsel  concerned  in  the  catise  always  ^gn 
the  case,  that  they  may  be  answemble  tor 
what  it  contained  m  it.    They  proceed  in  thfe 
House  of  Commons  with  pnnted  cases,   de- 
livered to  the  members ;  but  that  is  really  and 
seriously  with  a  view  to  tiie  cause,  and  it 
comes  under  their  protection.    BUt  if,  in  the 
time  of  the  recess  of  parliament,  while  there 
are  no  proceedings,  and  under  cover  of  an 
application  for   ildress  to  bo^  Hou^^  of 
Parliament,  scandal  and  defamation  is  cbtk- 
veyed,  it  is  agunst  law ;  and  such  printing  and 
publishing  would  kiot  be  within  the  rule. 

Now  let  us  Newborn  this  application  is  made 
by.  It  is  made  by  the  several  persons  con- 
cerned as  directors  it  transacting  tlie  afllurs  of 
the  Hospital.  They  state,  before  they  came 
here,  they  themselves  hsuA  taken  this  pamphlet 
up,  in  an  application  to  the  governors  of 
Greenwich  Hospital,  as  a  matter  upon  -vdiiih 
the  governors  ought  to  proceed  in  vindicaik>ti 
of  tneir  characters;  and  stating^  that  they 
ought  to  proceed  in  the  examination  with  re- 
gard to  the  abuses  themselves. 

In  their  own  natujre  as  governors  (let  'who 
would  be  blameable  if  there  was  a  foun- 
dation for  it)  they  ought  to  proceed  with 
respect  to  the  calumniator,  and  tney  ought  to 
maice  a  proper  enquiij,  to  see  whether  therfe 
was  any  foundation  for  it  or  iiot  The  pre- 
sent defendant  is  an  object  of  the  jtirisdiction 
of  the  general  court,  for  he  happens  to  h^ 
lieutenant-governor  of  Greenwich  Hospital, 
and  as  lieutenant-governor  of  Greenwich 
Hospital  to  the  extent  of  all  the  appointments, 
and  the  emoluments,  and  the  place  itself  he 
held — ^he  is  the  subject  of  the  jurisdiction 
of  tlie  governors. 

I  see,  by  the  charterj^  the  management  of 
the  whole  corporation  is  in  the  governors; 
but,  from  the  number  of  governors,  and  the 
persons  of  whom  they  were  composed,  the 
charter  supposes,  the  greatest  numbo*  would 
not  attend;  and  therefore,  the  charter  prcmdes 
a  standing  conlttiitCee,  and  they  are  the  direc- 
tors ;  and  not  only  that,  but  it  provides  for 
geneMl  <JOwrts. 

^'  And  we  hereby  direct,  that  the  mcimbers 
of  the  corporation,  or  so  many  of  them  as 
conTeniently  can,  idiall,  fipom  time  to  time. 
m«et  together,  at  some  convenient  place,  ana 
that  they,  or  any  Seven  or  more  of  tnetn  shall, 
and  are  hereby  appointed  to  be  a  ^Mnemi 
court,  whereof  our  hi^h  admiral  foe  the  tima 
being,  or  any  three  ot  the  •commissioneFs  for 
holding  the  office  of  kn:d  high  axlmiral/wlr 
trcfasUrer,  or  any  thrte  .c6inmissi<)ners  of  our 
trea^ry,  or  Any  three  or  more  lonls  ofour 
tirivy  council  shall  be  of  the  ^aDitim",  and 
'Uiey  are  to  meet  from  tlme'to  tithe. 

The  brdsof  the  Admiralty  llave  apotitr^f 
grantlnG;  places,  and  displacing,  but  under  the 
oontfouIoftbegoveiiiQiui  aid  tb«reis1his 
express  dayse  I 


01        rapfeting  tie  HqyatHotpUal  of  Greefnuch.        A.  O.  1778. 


[70 


*^  Pnmded  always,  all  proceedings  whatso- 
ever  rebtins  to  the  ouuis^eiBent  ot  the  affiurs 
f^the  said  Hospital  be  laia  before  the  general 
oourt,  to  be  held  as  hereaa  before  mentioned, 
and  the  same  ai«  to  be  ^t  all  times  subject  to 
their  controul,  to  whom  we  do  by  the^  pre- 
itwts  give  full  power  and  authority  tp  cootroul 
accQjr&agly." 

Now^  now  did  the  case  stand  at  the  time 
that  this  applicadon  was  made  to  the  Court  ? 
The  gentlemen  complaining,  had  applied  to  a 
gEDeral  court  of  the  governors  to  take  tnat 
^adter  uqder  their  cognizance.  The  general 
court  of  i^e  governors  had  appointed  a  com-; 
miltee  to  fsaxnine  into  it  T\i^  committee 
^ad  goae  though  and  made  their  report; 
Which  report  was  to  be  the  foiu^tion  for  ^e 
^ftber  acting  of  the  court  of  governors. 

The  a&davit  upon  whicb  the  rule  was  made, 
as  1  observe,  was  sworn  upon  the  6th  of  July, 
Wf^  m  ths^  affidavit,  whicn  was  sworn  the  (jth 
i^  Su^y  ii^y  take  notice,  that  the  committee 
b4  jgPi^  tnrou^  the  whole  business,  and 
kftd  beard  ilL  ana  ha^  finished  the  whole,  as 
lipon  the  Tuesday  preceding.  Now^  what 
was  the  representfition,  when  the  rule  was  ob- 
tained ?  Why,  that  the  defendant  had  acknow- 
ledged himself  to  be  ttie  publisher.  Not  a 
^Ford  of  the  manner  of  the  publication,  and 
jet  the  criminaiitv,  or  the  innocence,  aiid  jus- 
tification of  piibfishing  the  libel^  depends  upon 
the  occasion,  the  motive^  the  view,  the  intent, 
and  the  purpose  to  which  ^at  app^cation  was 
made. 

Suppose  ^  officer  of  this  court  reads  in  a 
.^tfliciu  procee<£ng9  9>  libel— that  is  no  publi- 
cation in  the  ciimmal  sense  of  the  words.    He 
caniea  it  to  his  counsel  in  this  case ;  that  is 
no  publication  ip  a  criminal  sense.    To  apply 
io  any  jurisdiction,  proper  to  take  the  mattg: 
into  con^eration,  is  no  publication,  provide^ 
leatty  ^d  bqnA^de^  he  did  not  concur  with 
pubhshmg  it  to  all  the  world ;  and  there  is  not 
a  pretence  in  all  the  affidavits  (and  they  have 
}N3ca  all  looked  into)ther^  is  not  a  pretence  of 
fibe  of  them  ever  being  bought,  or  any  being 
f^diibiled  at  a  stationer's  or  pamphlet  shop. 
And  the  defendant,  Baillie,  swears  positively, 
they  were  never  by  him  given  but  to  the  go- 
vernors, in  an  application  for  redress,  and  tnat 
he  did  not  deliver  them  to  the  governors  till 
hue  had  delivered  one  to  the  first  lord  of  the 
^Admiralty,  who,  to  be  sure,  as  fir^t  lord  of  the 
'Adnqoralty,  is  one  necesisary  to  be    of  the 
guonm  at  every  general  court,  and  he  was 
with  him  ten  daj's  Wore  he  ever  published 
k;  and  if  it  had  been  put  in  away  of^redress  it 
would  not  have  b,een  published  at  all.    And 
he  swears  ailerwards,  till  he  gave  it  to  hb 
counsel,  to  liave  advice  upon  this  prosecution, 
and  to  one  or  two  ^ends  privatel^  for  advice, 
he  never  gave  it,  or  nublished  it,  in  an  v  man- 
ner whatsoever,  ana  to  this  day  he  nas  not 
pi4>Ushed  it. 

It  15  said,  this  is  an  ^biguous  tenp,  his 
having  owned  the  pubUcation.  He  did,  sub 
9wlo;  but  the  Cj9urt  should  fiave  bee^  told  of 


this  sort  of  publication  to  gukle  our  discretion 
upon  the  circumstances  of  ^e  publication, 
wrth  respect  t^  what  we  were  to  do  *  if  he 
did  confess  xL  it  is  equivocally  laid  before 
us :  for  if  we  had  been  told  it  was  only  given 
to  the  governors  for  redress  ;*  that  upon  the 
application  of  those  that  applied  tpr  the  rule, 
me  governors  had  taken  it  up,  aiid  it  was  thei) 
aepend^ing  before  tl^em,  and  a  report  made  by 
the  committee,  it  would  have  been  worth  con- 
sideration, whether  the  court  would  have 
mac^e  any  rule  at  all.  And  this  notice  in  th^ 
affidavit^  with  regard  to  the  committee,  is 
all  artflilly  put ;  for  it  artfully  leads  one  to  un- 
derstand  the  question  is  another  thing ;  and 
they  leave  the  excuse  for  not  coming  sooner ; 
but  ^he  stronger  part  of  the  case  is  this;  they 
tell  you  they  did  not  know  of  the  report,  ft 
cannot  be  supposed  they  did  not  know  of  the 
report. 

Mr.  Morgan,  My  lord,  they  did  not  kno^ 
of  the  report. 

'EsltI' of  Mansfield.  Sit  down— I  don't  take 
the  information.  No  man  of  them  but  must 
know  the  opinion  of  the  boan).  If  what  you 
say  is  true,  many  articles  are  not  proved,  and 
others  are  proved  against  the  affidavits.  Could 
any  body  not  jcriow  the  general  tendency  of 
the  report?  If  they  did  not  know  it  in  the 
words  (besides  it  bears  date  the  6th  of  August^ 
they  must  know  the  general  tendency,  and 
they  must  know,  from  the  nature  of  the  re^ 
poit,  It  was  impossible  for  the  court  of  go- 
vernors, i4pon  tnai  report,  not  to  do,  at  least, 
l^hat  they  have  done ;  they  would  have  been 
warranted  to  have  done  more.  , 

As  to  the  appointing  this  committee,  I 
see  no  ipputation  whatsoever ;  none ;  for  Mr. 
Baillie  in  nis  own  affidavit  says,  that  many  of 
the  directors  were  worthy,  honourable,  re- 
spectable men ;  and  his  only  objection  is, 
^ney  did  not  attend.  Y^hy  ?  That  is  the  case 
we  all  know  of  many  very  worthy  respectable 
men  that  are  governors  of  many  hospitals  in 
this  city,  and  trustees  in  many  public  chari- 
ties ;  from  other  business  they  cannot  always 
attend.  The^  don't  look  upoi;  that  as  a 
failure  in  their  duty  j  they  leave  it  to  others, 
unless  they  areparticulariy  called  upon  to  act 
as  directors.  Tne  only  objection  is,  they  djd 
not  attend. 

Such  a  general  charge  would  not  prevent 
any  man  that  did  come'  and  attend  upon  the 
investigation  to  do  his  duty  that  day ;  add 
there  is  not  one,  by  the  book,  upon  whom 
there  is  the  least  charge  or  imputation  thrown ; 
not  one;  as  appears  by  the  affidavit  of  the  de- 
fendant, which  is  very  strong,  considering  the 
asperity  and  warmth  of  those  affidavits,  in 
which,  they  have  behaved  not  very  judicious- 
ly upon  tins  occasion,  for  the  less  warinth  that 
appears  upon  these  occasions  the  bettor.  But 
they  have  thought  proper  to  introduce  a  great 
deal  of  warmth  mto  them. 

There  is  not  one  upon  which  there  is  any 

•objection  thrown  out  except  Mr.  Barker ;  not 

one  of  the  coimsel  have  thrown  out  any  oh- 


71] 


18  GEORGE  111.    '      The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  SaOGe,  [7S 


jection  to  any  of  the  committee  except  Mr.' 
Barker;  and,  I  thmk,  they  complaiA,  sir 
Meyrick  Burrell  did  not  attend  but  once ;  and 
Mr.  Cust  was  absent  but  once  (that  is  the  last 
day)  but  there  is  no  otlicr  imputation  on  their 
proceedings. 

Then  such  a  committee,  sitting  seven  days, 
report,  they  heard  all  that  he  could  offer; 
they  go  through  an  examination  of  every  offi- 
cer charged  by  him,  and  into  every  particular ; 
they  CO  through  the  indecency  or  his  beha- 
viour before  them  (which  was  highly  impro- 
per; he  should  have  complained  m  a  proper 
wav)  and,  having  gone  through  all  that,  it  was 
laid  before  the  general  court. 

I  agree  with  Mr.  Lee,  it  was  imj^ossible  the 
^neral  court  should  not  animadvert  upon  it, 
if  that  report  is  true*  and  if  it  was  true,  they 
could  not  do  otherwise  than  censure  any  man* 
that  appeared  in  the  light  of  a  groundless  car- 
lumniator  of  all  those  people. 

Then  how  does  that  agree  with  this  appli- 
cation? You  came  with  Siis  report,  which  is 
to  be  the  foundation  of  a  farther  proceeding, 
at  the  instant  you  were  seeking  redress  from 
them. 

If  you  had  said,  we  proceed  before  the  go- 
vernors, and  mean  to  nave  him  censured  by 
the  governors,  he  being  the  subject  of  their 
jurisdiction,  the  court  would  never  h*  ;e  grant- 
ed an  information. 

A  case  not  unsimilar,  occurs  now  this 
moinent.  Suppose  a  fellow  of  a  college,  in 
application  to  a  visitor,  libels  the  whole  so- 
ciety, and  they  complain  to  the  visitor  of  that 
libel ;  .and  the  visitor  is  of  opinion,  though  in 
the  shape  of  a  complaint,  it  is  an  infamous, 
scandalous^  ^undless  calumny,  and  he  ex- 
pels him  for  It,  and  the  fellows  come  to  this 
court  for  an  information,  would  they  grant  it? 
Certainly  not. 

The  expulsion  was  the  proper  punishment 
for  members  of  such  societies,  as  they  suffer  in 
the  capacity  in  which  they  commit  the  injury. 

He  nas  mjured,  as  licutenant-govemor,  his 
fellow  members  of  the  society ;  it  comes  be- 
fore all  the  members;  they  think  proper  to 
punish  him ;  that  is  the  proper  judicature. 

Then  it  was  wrong  in  them  to  suppress  this 
KTOund.  It  was  wrong  in  them  to  come  till 
the  censure  was  past.  And  the  moment  they 
had  him  punished  in  this  way,  tiiey  should 
have  given  notice  and  dropped  the  mforma- 
tion. 

Upon  that  ground,  independent  of  an^  other, 
I  am  of  opinion,  this  rule  should  be  discharg- 
ed, and  discharged  with  costs.* 

*  Tliat  is,  aboat  one  half  of  tie  expenoe  acdmlljr 
incvired.  Orix.  iJi— In  2  Espinaue'f  Niri  Prin», 
p.  10,  if  a  very  ahort  nolo  of  Uiii  case.  See  also  Mr. 
George*ii  TVeatife  on  the  oiTenoe  of  Libel,  obapter  4, 
"  on  the  motiTe  to  the  act  which  most  have  been  oom- 
MJUcd  with  regard  to  tlie  Hbel." 


PROCEEDINGS 

IV  THE 

HOUSE    OF   LORDS, 

Upon  as  EyatJiRT  into  the  Abusxi» 
AND  Mismanagement  of  the  RoyaXt 
Hospital  vor  Seamen  at  Grsen^ 

WICH.* 

On  Thursday,  March  11,  1779,  certain  pa^ 
pers  relating  to  Greenwich  HospitaL  which- 
nad  been  moved  for  by  the  duke  otRicnmond,, 
were  presented :  whereupon  his  grace,  in  a 
speech  of  some  length,  stated  certain  abuses^ 
which,  according  to  captain  Baillie's  account,.- 
existed  in  the  management  and  conduct  of  the 
Hospital;  and  particularly, 

1.  The  leaving  out  essential  words  and 
whole  passages  in  the  charter,  and  adding  new 
powers  and  authorities,  without  the  know- 
ledge, privity,  or  consent  of  a  general  court  of 
governors. 

2.  The  violation  of  the  original  institution^ 
by  the  appointment  of  officers  in  the  Hos- 
pital, who  are  not  seafaring  men. 

3.  The  appointment  of  such  officers  in  the 
council  of  tne  house  to  govern  seamen,  of 
whose  disposition,  temper,  and  manners,  they 
were  totally  ignorant. 

4.  The  admission  of  a  number  of  clerks, 
deputies,  and  servants,  who  are  not  seafsirin^ 
men,  into  apartments  in  the  Hospital,  ana 
some  of  them  into  the  wards  of  the  pen- 
sioners. 

5.  That  the  directors  have  given  fresh  con- 
tracts to  Peter  Mellish,  the  contracting  butcher, 
who  had  been  convicted  of  fraud;  that  whilst 
another  action  was  pending,  they  gave  him  a 
second  contract,  and  a  third  contract,  afier 
they  had  compounded  fifty  other  fraudulent 
breaches  for  100/. 

6.  That  money,  instead  of  provisions,  is 
given  by  the  directors  to  above  1,000  pen- 
sioners, which  encourages  drunkenness  and 
disorder  in  the  Hospital. 

7.  That  this  matter  had  been  represented 
as  an  abuse^  by  the  unanimous  consent  of  the 
council  of  the  House,  to  the  directors,  without 
effect. 

8.  That  money  arising  from  such  savins^, 
in  giving  less  money  than  the  value  of  the 
provisions,  together  with  the  mulcts  and 
checks  upon  the  pensioners,  create  a  fund, 
called  the  Charity  Stock,  out  of  which  addi*- 
tional  salaries  are  given  to  v&rious  civil  offi- 
cers, who  have  votes  in  laying  on  those 
mulcts. 

9.  That  in  many  Mrts  of  the  clothing,  such 
as  shoes,  stockings,  linen,  beds,  washing,  &c. 
there  are  great  abuses. 

10.  That  the  provisions  have  been  fre- 
quently represented  by  the  council    to  the 



*  From  the  '  Solemn  Appeal/  ko. 


IS]        rapeetvig  the  Royai  BotpiUi  at  Greewmeh.         A.  O.  1778. 


[74 


board  of  directors  to  be  bad,  by  the  mal- 
pncdces  of  the  receiying  officers  and  of  the 
contractors,  without  proper  attention  on  the 
|igit  of  the  directors. 

11.  That  the  beer  in  particular  has  been 
iband  so  bad,  as  to  oblige  the  council  at  one 
time  to  start  4,000  gallons,  as  unfit  for  use,  to 
prevent  its  being  served  to  the  men,  without 
any  punishment  being  inRicted  on  the  brewer, 
or^toy  of  the  civ]>  officers,  whose  duty  it  was 
to  superintend  the  brewery. 

12.  That  the  directors  have  given  1,000/. 
by  private  agreement  for  cleaning  the  pictures 
ID  the  Painted  Hall,  without  advertising  for 
proposals  by  contract,  in  order  to  ascertain  the 
value  of  that  public  work. 

13.  That  the  danger  of  fire,  for  want  of 
better  regulation,  has  not  been  attended  to, 
by  which  neglect  a  most  dreadful  misfortune 
bas  happeneo,  ivhereby  the  Hospital  will  not 
be  enabled,  in  this  moment  of  war,  to  provide 
fax  so  many  pensioners,  as  with  proper  pre- 
caution it  mi^t  have  done,  besides  the  great 
ZDGonvenience  brou^t  upon  the  pensioners, 
and  expence  to  the  Hospital. 

Other  noble  lords  spoke ;  afler  which,  the 
House  adjourned  till  tne  next  day. 

On  Friday  the  12th  of  March,  the  Lords 
met  again,  and  the  order  of  the  day  b^ing 
read  for  the  House  to  resolve  itself  into  a  com- 
mittee, the  Lord  Chancellor  left  the  wool- 
sack, and  lord  Scarsdale  took  the  chair,  a 
great  number  of  papers,  which  .had  been  pre- 
sented relative  to  the  subject,  were  read. 
'  The£.  of  Sandwich  then  rose,  and  said,  as  he 
had  found  himself  mistaken  in  a  particular  to 
^ch  he  had  spoken  the  preceding  day,  he  bes- 

gid  leave  to  take  the  opportunity  of  that  flul 
ouse  to  recal  his  assertion.  The  noble  duke, 
in  his  opening  speech,  had  mentioned  the  no- 
gociation  between  captain  Baillie's  counsel 
and  the  Admiralty,  and  in  his  reply  he  had 
declared  that  the  negociation  took  place  sub- 
sequent to  captain  ISaillie's  dismission ;  the 
feet,  he  recollected,  happened  prior  to  Mr. 
Baillie's  dismission  firom  his  office  of  lieute- 
nantrgovemor ;  the  error,  his  lordship  de- 
clared, arose  naerely  from  torsetfulness,  and  as 
he,  upon  recollection,  found  he  was  wrone. 
he  thought  it  incumbent  upon  him,  as  well 
oat  of  respect  to  their  lordships,  as  in  point  of 
candour  uid  truth,  to  acknowledge  it,  m  order 
that  an  improper  idea  might  not  be  enter- 
tained, either  as  to  his  attempting  to  chm^ 
the  noble  duke  with  having  stated  a  false  fact, 
or  that  he  should  rest  anv  part  of  his  reply  to 
the  matters  of  charge,  which  might  come  out 
ffl  the  course  of  the  enquiry,  upon  false 
grounds. 

The  Duke  of  Richmond  agreed,  that  it  was 
perfectly  feir  ftwr  tjie  noble  Iom,  upon  his  better 
T^lcction  to  recal  any  of  his  assertions,  and 
*i9o  that  it  was  extremely  candid  to  do  it  in 
«o  early  a  stage  of  the  business ;  he  only 
^|md  their  lordships  to  remember,  that  upon 
^  contradktion  oi  the  assertion  relative  to 


the  negociation  with  captain  Baillie's  counsel, 
the  noble  lord  had  built  an  inference,  and  an 
argument  which  extended  a  great  way,  he 
having  flatly  and  directly  said,  that  one  asser- 
tion was  false,  it  was  very  natural  to  imagine, 
might  induce  their  lordships  to  conclude,  that 
all  or  most  of  the  rest  were  equally  false, 
which  he  had  also  asserted ;  but  as  the  noble 
lord  had  now  called  to  mind  the  real  state  of 
the  negociation,  and  acknowledged  it ;  for  a» 
the  latter  grew  out  of  the  former,  they  ought 
certainly  to  fall  together,  and  the  one  to  be 
given  I  p  as  well  as  the  other. 

His  ^race  said,  he  was  at  a  loss  in  what 
manner  to  proceed,  as  to  the  discussion  of  tiie 
several  articles  of  enquiry,  which  was,  in  fiwt, 
their  true  name,  as  they  were  not  matters  of 
charge,  but  matters  of  parliamentary  enquiry. 
He  oeclared,  he  was  perfectly  indifferent  as  to 
the  mode  of  proceeding,  and  submitted  it  to 
their  lordships,  whether  it  should  be,  by  di- 
viding the  articles,  and  entering  upon  an  exa- 
mination of  evidence,  in  defence  of  each  se- 
p^ately,  concluding  entirely,  and  determining 
upon  one  before  another  was  begun,  or  by 
hearing  evidence  generally  to  the  whole,  and 
drawing  an  ultimate  conclusion  from  the  evi- 
dence at  lai^ge.  His  only,  wish  was  to  adopt 
that  line  ana  rule  of  procedure,  which  should 
tend  best  to  render  the  enquiry  short,  clear, 
certain,  easy  to  comprehend,  ana  conclusive. 

This  candid  appeal  to  the  committee  gave 
rise  to  a  warm  deDate,  which  lasted  above  an 
hour.  The  Lord  Chancellor,  the  dukes  of 
Richmond  and  Grafton,  lord  Camden,  lord 
Mansfield,  and  lord  Ravensworth,  taking  a 
part  in  it. 

The  Lord  Chancellor  and  lord  Mansfield 
contended,  that  the  proper  mode  of  proceed- 
ing would  be  to  hear  the  whole  evidence  to 
the  whole  charge,  (for  a  charge  in  effect  it 
was,  though  the  noble  duke  did  not  urge  it  as 
a  matter  of  accusation) ;  then  for  the  noble 
lord  on  behalf  of  himself,  or  any  person  he 
might  think  affected  by  what  came  out  in  the 
course  of  the  enquiry,  to  state  his  defence, 
and  tliat  their  lordships  would  by  sucH  a  mode 
of  procedure  be  best  enabled*  to  judge  of  the 
entire  matter. 

Lord  Camden,  the  duke  of  Grafton,  lord 
Ravensworth.  and  the  duke  of  Richmond, 
were  of  a  different  opinion.  They  thought  it 
would  be  an  endless  matter  to  go  generally 
into  evidence,  contending  that  perspicuity, 
and  an  endeavour  to  renoer  the  evidence  on 
each  point  comprehensible  to  every  capacity, 
and  impressive  on  every  memory,  were  cer- 
tsunly  the  principal  objects  to  be  desired. 
That  if  one  article  was  not  concluded  upon, 
and  finally  disposed  of  before  a  second  was 
begun  to  be  enquured  into,  the  enquiry  might 
last  for  ever;  that  the  minds  of  the  noble 
lords  in  general  would  be  peirplexed,  and  it 
would  be  absolutely  impossible  either  to  dis- 
criminate the  nature,  or  the  degree  of  evi- 
dence adduced,  in  support  of  one  articki  or  ia 


75] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  tfCkqfiain  Tkomoi  BaOUe^  [79 


any  shape  whatever,  to  decide  with  truth  aud^ 
precision  upon  the  whole. 

In  the  course  of  this  debate, 

Lord  ManyUld  s^id,  that  the  impending 
enquiry  had  been  brought  in  by  a.  noble  duke, 
yffho  had  very  candidly  declared,  that  he  took 
it  up  merelv  upon  public  grounds;  that  the 
noble  duke  had  flirther  acknowledged,  that  he 
did  not  preten4  to  say  the  assertions  were 
founded,  or  to  vouch  for  the  truth  of  any  one 
of  them,  but  that  he  thought  they  were  of 
suBicient  importance  to  oul  for  a  parlia- 
mentary examination.  His  lordship  went  9n 
to  declare,  that  as  a  material  part  of  the  ob- 
je^  arose  from  captain  Baillie's  book,  which 
contained  a  v^ety  of  aggravated  charges  of 
^use  of  the  charter  of  the  Hospital,  ax^  of 
mismanagement  in  different  shapes,  which 
tended  to  affect  and  cri^nsite  many  persons 
who  were  absent,  thouffh  chiefly  centering 
in  an  accusation  on  a  noble  lord  who  had  a 
seat  in  that  House,  he  did  not  doubt  but  thcif 
lordships  would  take  cape  of  the  absent  par- 
ties, and  reg^d  them  as  men  accused  fund  un- 
heard, and  that  in  the  whole  proceeding  of 
the  enquiry,  they  would  conduct  the  business 
with  candour  and  fairness  respecting  the  noble 
person  who  was  a  member  of  the  house, 
which,  he  contended,  they  could  not  do  wiith- 
put  hearing  the  whole  of  the  evidence  re- 
specting eveiy  part  of  the  object  of  'enquiry, 
since  their  ultimate  conclusion  must  necessa- 
rily be  general,  and  consequently  be  founded 
OB  the  totality  of  the  matter  adduced  in  evi- 
dence, both  in  support  of  the  charges,  and  in 
deience  of  the  parties  accused. 

In  reply  to  this, 

Lord  Camden  protested  against  any  idea  of 
the  present  enquiry  being  founded  on  a  per- 
«Muu  attack,  and  hoped  .tha^  no  noUie  lord 
'would  consiaer  it  in  so  odious  and  {NTQludicial 
a  point  of  view ;  be  solemnly  disdaioQMBd every 
auggestion  or  intention  of  attack  on  any  man, 
or  a/xy  set  of  men^  declaring,  that  the  only 
fnoAive  which  weigned  with  him,  and  induced 
lum  to  take  a  part  in  the  enquiry,  vw  the 
JHiblic  good,  and  an  ardent  desire,  at  this  cri- 
iical  moment,  to  convince  those  brave  and 

fJlant  men,  the  navy  officers  and  seamen  of 
ngland,  on  whose  cotu-a^e  and  ac^vity  this 
country  depended  for  swty  and  prosperity, 
jthat  the  noblest  fonndation  in  the  world,  a 
foundation  which  did  the  utmogt  honour  to 
£r&eat  Britain,  was  attentively  regarded  and 
.watched  by  parliaBieot  with  a  jealous  eye,  as 
the  nation*s  gneat  man  of  war,  as  an  is«ylum 
ibr  disfld)led  seamen,  and  for  suoh  only  as  had 
-purchased  it  by  their  blood,  by  their  services, 
and  by  the  contributions  they  had  paid ;  that 
it  was  the  business. of  parliament  to  defend 
-^nd  protect  them,  and  to  prevent  every  abuse 
in  tbepunagementof  it,  inorderthat  itabould 
he  a  place  of  seat,  fit  to  .noceiMe  them  and 
<thei^'  successors,  the  piUow  on  which  .thfly 
^mre  to  repose,  alter  -their  daio^er,  toil,  and 
care,  in  doenoe  of  the  public ;  m  «fact,.that 
■4hi8  placeof^setiieinent,  which  tb^  cegaodid 


as  their  l^st  port,  a^  their  only  hav^n  of  com- 
fort, happiness,  and  peace^  ought  to  be  pre-^ 
served  for  them,  and  them  only,  with  every 
enjoyment  and  advantage  deducible  from  ita 
oru|Uial  constitution. 

The  Duke  of  Hickwumd  professed  himself 
puch  hurt  at  what  had  fallen  from  the  noble 
and  leartied  law  lord.  He  begged  again  and 
again,  that  it  might  be  considered  he  meant 
no  personal  accusation,  that  he  brought  not 
charge,  nor  wished  to  criminate  either  the 
noble  Iqrd  at  the  head  of  the  Admiralty,  or 
9ny  other  person.  The  noble  and  learned 
lord  had  hurt  him  still  more,  by  suggesting 
that  he  had  braught  a  charge  against  absent 
persons.  God  forbid,  th$it  ne  should  ever  ac- 
cuse men  who  were  not  present,  or  who  could 
not  make  their  defence !  much  more  ashamec| 
should  he  be  to  attempt  to  drajr  any  conclu- 
sions of  a  criminating  nature  against  those 
who  wer^  absent.  In  nis  opening  speech,  h^ 
had  expressly  declared,  that  all  the  vanoua 
matters  which  he  had  stated,  arose  fronci 
ejt  parte  evidence,  and  th^t  he  did  nof 
lay  them  down  ^  facts,  which  he  under- 
took to.  provje.  He  was  perfectly  indif- 
ferent as  to  the  issue  of  the  enquiry ;  con- 
vinced, however^  as  he  was,  that  the  subject 
of  it  was  sufficiently  important  to  require  par- 
liamentary eiLax^inatiop,  1^  shoidd  certainly 
Eroceed,  but  he  ag^iu  submitted  it  to  their 
.  )rdsJiips^  considcpUlpn,  which  woukl  be  the 
best  mode  of  receiving  the  evidence. 

Lord  Mqwjkld^  in  reply,  said,  th|s  noble 
duke  had  certainly  ibisen  looking  ovisr  some 
papers,  or  had  his  thoughts  otnerwi^  so  much, 
iepg^ged  when  he  l^ul  spoken,  that  b^e  did  not 
hear  nim  distinctly.  Nothing  could  be  far- 
tlier  from  his  meanixig,  than  the  idea  the 
noble  duke  had  revoUedat,  and  nothing  could 
he  stronser  in  expression,  than  the  words  he 
had  used,  respecting  th/e  nature  of  the  ea- 
quirv,  and  the  candid  mariner  in  which  the 
joobfe  duke  had  brought  it  forward.  His  lord- 
ship jnepeated  his  wordsL  ^d  shewed  that  he 
had  not  uttered  a  svUablc,  which  led  to  an  io- 
sinuati^  of  the  cnarffe  peing  personally  le- 
velled, or  that  the  n^le  duke  meant  to  cri- 
minate absent  persons. 

At  ler^^  the  Committee  proceeded  to  exa- 
mine wituesses,  who  being  all  previously 
sworn. 

Captain  fiar7/if,t}ic  late  lieutenant  Governor, 

was  called  in. 

'  Pi^e  to  inform  the  committee  whether 
you  hav»  read  tl)e  new  cluirter } — I  have. 

I^ave  yoy  read  the  old  conwi^sion? — I 
have. 

Have  you  compared  the  old  commission 
with  the  new  charter  ? -4  have  Hi:ompared 
them. 

Is  there  any  difference  between  them?-- 
There  are  a  great  many  alterations  and  addi- 
tions which  are  .nvy  m^tesial,  in  my  humble 
Judgment 
§ 


ft]       rapeMng  Ute  Rogid  lioipHai  at  Greermich*         A.  D.  1778. 


C7B 


Do  voa  know  who  frepued  the  tHarter  ?-r 

I  bdieve  it  was  preplired  by  Mr.  Ifobetfion^ 

thesecretaiy  to  thedireclorsof  the  Hospital 
Hid  genersl  court  of  govemots  and  conunis- 
flooers. 

Was  the  charier  ever  re%d  at  a  geaend 
court  tet  you  know  of  t— Wfaen  it  was  pro- 
duced at  a  general  court  at  the  Admiralty,  in 
cfder  to  be  read,  lord  Sandwich  was  pleased  to 
siy  he  thought  the  t^adin|giinneces»ury^  as  it 
mtsiBMre  copy  of  the  old  commission,  ex- 
cest  some  alteratioiis  in  point  of  form. 

Was  the  ch^uter  then  sealed,  or  was  it  the 
dn^gfat  of  the  charter  f— It  was  the  charter. 

Wis  the  mat  seal  to  it  ^— I  believe  it  was. 

Was  any  oraught  of  that  charts  laid  before 
ihe  general  comfprevions  to  its  being  sealed 
vkh  the  great  aeal?-^!  dont  know  that  dnere 
vas;  thete  was  a  r6i!igh  draught  of  it  brought 
Id  the  beard  <»f  directors. 

Have  yo)i2  constantly  attended  ihe  general 
cnirts  f~I  ^ene:^y  attended  tery  constantly. 

You  den°t  recollect  thact  any  draught  of  the 
darter  was  produced  at  a  general  court,  pre- 
vious to  the  great  seal  being  alfixed  to  it  ?— 
I  doot  recoil^  that  thet«  was. 

Was  it  before  the  court  of  directors  thit  yon 
spbkeofthe  rooeh  draioght  b^ing  predueied? 
—Yes^  I  really  <£m*t  recoHect  the  partacalar^ 
of  it,  but  i  did  not  vndemwand  theai  tiiat  there 
were  any  alterations,  additions,  oroAiiasioBs, 
from  the  orinnal  commission. 

Wfaopmchioed  that  draught  f-^Ibelileve  the 
aii£tor  or  the  secretaxy,  I-am  notstnewhich. 

l^pOQ  what  (xxa^ioB  was  the  charter  9euA 
before  the  general  coort?— It  iilaB  not  read'^ft 
aii  in  my  nBarizi^. 

With  what,  view  was  h  attempted  to  be 
*read  ?^I  have  eaid  it  was  supposed  unneces- 
sary to  read  it;  that  itwasameretopyofthe 
old  commissions,  some  iterations  only  lin 
point  of  form,  on  account  of  the  iilooiporating 
of  the  governors  and  commiBaioners. 

Wfaoi  you  found  that  there  were  some  vna- 
terial  alterations,  <hd  von  ever  represent  that 
as  a  grievance,  and  a  thing  thift  ought  not  to 
have  been>-^I  never  knew  that  there  were 
aDjr  alteratbns  till  the  dharter-had  passed  the 
great  seal,  and  then  I  compared  the  old  com- 
nussitms  with  the  charter,  and  'foond  very 
enential,  alterations.  I  beg  your  IbnMiips  to 
undersfand  that  the  charter  was  «|4' entirely 
read,  only  soine  partioidar  parts  of  it,  at  Idie 
deareof  capt.  Hood,  thetrsasorer,  who  foond 
himself  aggrieved  by  leaving  out  part  of  his 
titles;  Receiver  General  was  left  out^  whieh 
hethou^t  afiected  liim,  o^rwise,  I  believe, 
iM>jmrtof  it  had  been  read  at  all. 

Cutam  Baillie  said,  if  I  understand  him, 
that  he  believed  the  charter  was  prepared  by 
Mr.  Ibbetson;  does  captain  Bailfie'know  of 
^  <Mhflrperson  employed  be»des  himf'-^-Mr. 
^J^etsoii  IS  secretary ;  we  have  no  other  to 
wHoBpital,  to  the  boerd  o(dheetor8,andthe 
poenX  cotirt  of  governors  and  conmnssionerB. 

^hat  reason  nave  you  to  believe  tt  was 
piepsnd  by  him  ^Becanae  bQ  4te8  idl  #» 

I 


business  of, Greenwich  Hospital,  as  for  as 
comes  under  my  knowledge,  as  far  as  I  know 
in  that  line. 

Did  you  never  hear  of  this  charter  being 
laid  before  and  orepared  by  any  eminent 
counsel  f — ^I  have  neard  that  it  was  to  be  re- 
fehed  to  the  attorney  and  solicitor  general ; 
I  did  heikr  that  mentioned,  that  it  lay  some 
tame  with  them,  af^er  it  was  drawn  up. 

Had  the  solicitor  to  the  Hospital  any  hand 
in  preparing  it  ? — t  don't  know  that  he  had. 
[Capt.  Baillie  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Ibbetson  (Secretary  to  the  Directors  of 
Greenwich  Hospital)  called  in. 

Please  to  give  an  account  to  the  House  of 
what  you  know  of  the  new  charter;  bow  it 
was  prepared;  by  whom  it  was  planned; 
who  shewn  to;  and  what  steps  it  went 
tlirough  ? — ^It  was  originally  proposed  by  Mr. 
Edeo,  the  auditor,  the  having  a  charter  for  in- 
corporating Greenwich  Hospital.  The  soli- 
citor for  Greenwich  Hospital  was  directed, 
with  the  assistance  of  Mr.  Eden,  to  prepare 
the  draught  of  a  charter  to  be  laid  before  the 
attorney  and  solicitor  general ;  a  draught  of)  a 
charter  was  accordingly  prepared,  first  o£  all 
there  was  an  opinion  takeil  from  tlye^ttorn^ 
and  solicitor-general,  and  Mr.  Edp^'a  opinion 
of  the  necessity  and  expediencv  J^^^havin^ 
charier  for  Greenwich  Hospital.  j.^I^hc^  gav^ 
their  opinion,  that  it  was  expedient  dndQi9ce»- 
saiy;  a  draught  of  a  charter  was  ordered  to  be 
prejpared,  with  the  assistalice  of  Mt;,  Edeif, 
ana  to  be  laid  before  the  attorney  and  aoh- 
citor-eeneral ;  by  them  it  was  settled ;  it  was 
-brougnt  before  the  board  of  direaors  as  set- 
tled oy  the  attorney  and  solicitor-general; 
the  board  thought  it  would  be  necessary  to 
add  a  clause  to  iit,  with  respect  to  the  trea^ 
surer,  and  other  people  concerned  in  the  re- 
ceipt of  money  for  Greenwich  Hospital  givii^ 
security ;  that  was  proposed,  laid  before  the 
attorney  and  solicitor-general,  and  with  that 
amendment  the  charter  passed  the  great^^eal. 

When  that  was  laid  before  the  general 
court,  was  it  then  sealed  ? — Yes>  it  was  sealed ; 
it  came  perfect ;  the  charter  itself  under  the 
seal  was  brought  to  the  general  court,  arKl 
was  laid  before  the  general  court.  It  was  not 
all  of  it  read. 

What  general  court  was  it  this  charter  was 
laid  before? — ^The  general  court  immediately 
after  the  date  of  it,  in  December,  1775,  -I 
think — I. can  refer  to  the  books. 

Have  you  the  mimites  of  that  general  court 
here  ? — ^I  have. 

Please  to  read  them. 

[The^Kttnees  prdducedthe  minutes,  andivtd 
an  entry  Purporting  that  the  new  charter  was 
presinteato  aiseneral  oourt.  on  Saturday  the 
16thbf  December,  1775,!and  that  Jts  the  ikw 
chatter  emitted  to  stile  the  treasurer '  rccehrar 
general,*  which  title  he  had  in  the  old  oom- 
mrisskn,^the-treasarerheing*pfC8ent;e}mDressed 
his  doabts  whether  ai)  omission  of  me  bat 
MUliqpBd  -title  taaight  >not  afibeuha^piArais. 


79] 


18  GEOROE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas 


[80 


of  his  office;  tipon  which  the  genera)  court 
ordered,  that  a  case  be  stated,  and  laid  before 
the  attoniey  and  solicitor  general,  if  the  trea- 
surer, upon  further  consideration,  should 
think  the  same  necessary.] 

What  was  done  in  consequence  of  that? — 
At  a  subsequent  general  court,  held  on  the 
16th  of  February  following,' the  governor  ac- 
quainted the  court,  that  the  charter  had  been 
altered  in  'the  presence  of  his  majesty,  by 
adding  the  woros  "  Receiver  General"  to  the 
treasurer's  title,  as  expressed  in  his  patent  and 
the  old  commission. 

Then  am  I  to  understand  that  tins  charter 
was  never  laid  before  the  general  court  till  it 
had  passed  the  ^eat  seal  ?— I  am  not  prepared 
to  speak  to  that  immediately :  I  don't  thmk  it 
was ;  but  I  can  refer  to  that.  fThe  witness 
refers  to  the  Minute-book.)  It  does  not  ap- 
pear to  have  been  laid  before  the  general 
court. 

Not  any  draught  of  it  previous  to  passing 
the  great  seal  ? — No. 

when  it  was  laid  befbre  the  general  court, 

-  after  having  passed  the  great  seal,  what  was 

the  notide  to  persons  to  attend  that  general 

'(toxxri  .>'*  Wliat  number  of  persons  were  sum- 

S'  oned?H^^e  governors  and  commissioners 
at  had llRually  been  summoned  were  sum- 
moned upon  that  occasion ;  there  was  no  ex- 
traordmaW  summons. 

Who  are  usually  summoned  ?— The  lords  of 
the  Admiralty,  the  secretary  at  war,  the  trea- 
surer of  the  navy,  the  commissioners  of  tlic 
navy,  and  the  lieutenant-governor,  the  auditor 
and  the  directors  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  and 
the  deputy  master  of  the  Trinity-house.  Thfe 
deputy-master  of  the  Trinity-house,  in  the  last 
summons  was  one  of  the  directors. 

Has  it  been  usual  when  there  has  been  ex- 
traordinary business  come  before  the  Hospital 
to  summon  nobody  else  ?— I  neve^  remember 
but  one  instance  of  it. 

What  was  that  instance  ?— It  was  upon  the 
appointment  of  a  receiver  to  the  Derwentwa- 
ter  estate.  , 

Who  was  at  the  head  of  the  Admiralty  at 
that  time  ?^Lord  Egmont. 

Upon  that  occasion  who  was  summoned  ? — 
Tlie  greatest  part  of  the  commissioners  were 
summoned  upon  that  occasion ;  I  cannot  ex- 
actly state  them  ;  except  the  princes  of  the 
blood,  I  believe  almost  the  whole  commission 
were  summoned. 

But  upon  this  occasion  of  a  new  charter 
being  laid  before  them,  there  were  no  more 
summoned  than  ordinary  ?-~The  summonses 
went  in  the  usual  way ;  I  received  no  direc- 
tions. 4 

When  that  charter  was  read  before  the  ee- 
neral  court,  was  it  read  distinctly,  article  oy 
article,  or  only  parts  of  it  ?— A  very  small  part 
of  it  was  read. 

Was  it  intimated  that  there  were  but  few 
alterations,  or  was  any  notice  taken  of  any 
material  alterations  ?-«-There  was  no  notice 


taken  at  that  time  biit  of  the  omission  of 
part  of  the  treasurer's  title^  which  was  observ- 
ed, as  J  have  already  mentioned. 

Did  any  body  state  there  was  anV  material 
alteration?— I  don't  remember  that  there 
was. 

Was  there  any  thing  said  that  there  was  not 
any  material  alteration? — I  don't  recollect 
that  any  thing  of  that  sort  passed.  It  had 
been  laid  before  the  attorney  and  solicitor-se- 
neral ;  I  imagine  it  was  supposed  to  be  ri^ht. 

How  did  the  treasurer  luoow  that  his  titles 
were  left  out  ?— I  don*t  know. 

You  said  it  was  not  read  ?~  Probably  from 
the  draught  of  it,  as  settled,  having  bem  read 
to  the  b^utl  of  directora. 

When  was  it  read  to  the  board  of  directors  ? 
—(The  witness  refera  to  some  minutes.)  On 
the  linh  of  January,  1774,  **  a  draught  of  a 
charter,  as  settled  by  the  attorney  and  solici- 
tor-general, laid  before  the  board." 

I  understood  you  to  say  that  the  solicitor 
and  Mr.  Bden  were  directed  to  prepare  a 
draught  of  a  charter  ? — Yes,  to  be  laid  before 
the  attorney  and  solicitor-general. 

Who  gave  those  directions? — ^The  board  of 
directors. 

Were  they  the  only  pnersons  who  save  the 
orders  for  the  charter  being  prepared?— Yes. 

Who  was  consulted  in  drawing  up  the  char- 
ter?— It  was  upon  the  proposition  of  Mr. 
Eden,  who  at  that  time  was  auditor  and  coun- 
sel to  the  Hospital.  In  the  case  of  Mr.  Ellis, 
a  former  steward,  there  had  been  a  defi- 
ciency ;  there  was  some  difficult  how  he  was 
to  be  prosecuted ;  this  suggested  an  idea  that 
it  would  be  necessary  tonave  a  charter  to 
give  powers  to  that  body,  as  well  to  sue  as  for 
other  purposes,  and  the  commissioners  having 
all  along  directed  that  a  charter  should  be 
prepared. 

I  meant  to  ask  who  were  those  persons  that 
instructed  Mr.  Eden,  and  the  solicitor,  in  what 
manner  they  were  to  make  out  that  draught  ? 
— There  were  no  instructions  given  at  all ;  the 
solicitor  was  to  prepare  a  charter,  with  the  as- 
sbtanoeof  Mr.  Eden,  and  haviug  so  prepared 
it,  it  was  to  be  laid  before  the  attorney  and 
solicitor-general. 

Do  you  know  how  it  came  to  oass  that  Mr. 
Eden  and  the  solicitor,  of  themselves,  thought 
fit  to  mal^  any  material  alterations  between 
that  and  the  old  commission? — I  know  no- 
thing respecting  the  preparation  of  the  char- 
ter, Siough  I  am  charged  wiUi  it,  than  merely 
its  passing  the  board. 

If  you  donH  know  who  suggested  these  al- 
terations, or  advised  them,  then  I  have  no- 
thing to  ask  you  ?-^I  do  not    The  solicitor  is ' 
here,  probably  he  maybe  able  to  answer  that 
question. 

How  long  is  it  since  the  treasurer  of  the 
Hospital  was  required  to  give  security  ? — This 
very  charter  requires  it  There  was  a  clause 
added ;  I  mentioned  that  to  the  House  before. 

Do  you  know  whether  since  that  security 
was  required^  there  has  been  a  greater  sum9f 


8IJ  respecting  the  Rmfol  HoipUal  at  Greefnaoick.         A.  D.  1778* 


tst 


maoej  Mged  in  the  Dneasurer's  hands  ? — Upon 
mj  wordy  I  am  not  able  to  speak  to  that 
pomt 

Doyoa  not  know  that  the  treasurer  has  re- 
ceived much  less  since  the  security^  which  I 
sfmehend  to  be  10,000/.  ? — ^Yes,  it  is. 

Whether  he  has  not  received  much  less 
sinoe  that  time  than  before  ? — He  has  had  less 
than  10,000/.  since. 

How  much? — Six  thousand  pounds  less. 

How  were  the  prosecutions,  respecting  the 
Hospital,  carried  on.  before  the  new  chsuter  ? 
in  wnose  name?— The  solicitor  will  be  more 
able  to  speak  to  that  than  I  can;  but  in  the 
case  which  occasioned  the  taking  up  the  busi- 
ness of  the  charter,  Mr.  Ellis's  case,  there  was 
some  difficulty  how  to  proceed.  There  was 
one  opinion,  that  it  was  right  to  proceed  by  an 
assumpsit;  another  opinion,  that  an  informa- 
tioQ  should  be  filed  in  chancery,  by  the  attor- 
nqp-general,  and  that  was  directed,  but  there 
was  sone  difficulty  about  it;  and  from  that 
and  other  things,  it  was  thought  necessary  to 
get  a  new  charter.  It  had  b^n  attempted  in 
sevcnl  reigns;  I  traced  it  almost  ready  to  pass 
the  great  seals,  and  then  it  was  stopped. 

By  whom  were  those  difficulties  made;  in 
wbsl  court,  or  in  any  court?--!  only  said  I 
traced  the  charter  having  been  prepared :  I 
flaw  letters  in  the  books  of  the  Admualty  to 
Ihe  attocney-general,  pressing  him  to  expedite 
the  diarler,in  queen  Anne^sand  king  Creorge 
the  first's  time;  no  less  than  two  or  three 
chaiters  had  been  in  a  state  of  preparation, 
and  thai  th^  died  away,  and  we  cannot  trace 
what  stopped  them. 

Then  you  do  not  recollect  any  prosecutions, 
and  persons  transported  under  prosecutions. 
in  the  name  of  the  directors,  under  the  old 
commission  ? — ^There  have  undoubtedly  been 
mosecutionSy  but  the  solicitor  can  expkun  that 
Better. 

I  think  vou  stated,  that  there  were  direc- 
tijyisfirQm  tne  board  ot  directors  to  the  solicitor, 
and  Mr.  Eden,  to  prepare  tins  charter  ?'*^Yes. 

Do  those  directions  appear  upon  the  minutes 
of  the  court  of  directors  ? — Yes,  the^r  are  here. 
(Refers  to  the  Minute-book.)  I  wiU,  if  you 
please,  read  a  minute  immediately  preceding 
It,  respecting  Mr.  Ellis.  ^  On  the  26th  of  Feb- 
niaxy,  1772,  The  solicitor  laid  before  the 
board  Mr.  Eden's  opinion,  in  regard  to  the 
method  proper  to  be  taken  tor  recovering  from 
Ellis  the  bsuance  due  fix>m  him  to  the  Hospi- 
tal;  he  advises  an  assumspit,  though  he  could 
not  be  certain  of  success.  The  solicitor  was 
ffirected  to  take  the  attomey^^general^s  opinion 
upon  the  matter;  Mr.  Eden  havins  reported 
upon  the  above  occasion,  that  he  thinks  the 
want  of  incorporation  a  considerable  defect  in 
the  constitution  of  the  Hospital,  &c.  Be- 
sdved,  that  the  same  be  submitted  to  the  con- 
aderation  of  the  next  court 

<'  On  the  11th  of  March,  177S,  the  solicitor 
kid  before  the  board  a  case,  respecting  the  in- 
corpoialing  the  Hospital,  with  the  opinion  of 
the  attomqr  and  solicitor-general,   and  Mr. 

VOL.  XXL 


Eden,  thereupon,  by  which  it  appears,  that 
they  think  it  on  many  accounts  expedient,  and 
even  uecessaiv;  and  that  a  charter  of  incor- 
poration should  be  prepared  for  that  purpose, 
as  recommended  by  the  king's  commission. 
Ordered,  that  the  solicitor  do,  with  the  advice 
of  Mr.  Eden,  prepare  a  draught  for  that  pur- 
pose, and  lay  the  same  before  the  attorney 
and  solicitor-general  to  settle/' 

Before  what  court?— The  court;  the  board 
of  directors. 

The  first,  I  think,  you  mentioned,  was  at  a 
general  court? — ^The  ^neral  court,  in  the 
first  sta^e  of  this  business,  went  to  parlia- 
ment, with  a  petition  for  a  charter  by  act  of 
parliament. 

What  I  want  to  know  is,  what  the  direction 
is.  whether  it  was  a  general  court,  or  a  court 
or  directors,  that  gave  directions  to  Mr.  Eden 
and  the  solicitor  to  prepare  the  charter?-^ 
That  I  have  just  read  ot  the  11th  of  March, 
and  that  charier,  as  settled  by  the  attorney  and 
sohcitor-general,  was  laid  before  the  hoiid  of 
directors  on  the  13th  of  Jidy,  1774,  and  then 
they  proposed  the  addition  to  it  of  the  securi- 
ties. 

Then  that  draught,  as  laid  be£>re .  the  direc- 
tors, was  that  draught  with  the  alterations,  the 
same  as  the  charter  now  stands,  except  in  the 
case  of  csu9tain  Hood? — ^I  cannot  charge  my 
memory ;  1  suppose  no  alterations  were  made 
in  it  aner,  except  the  security  clause ;  but  the 
solicitor  is  the  person  I  must  refer  your  lord- 
ships to  upon  this  occasion. 

You  had  no  hand  in  drawing  the  charter  ?r- 
No;  I  had  no  hand  in  it,  but  what  appears 
upon  the  face  of  the  minutes ;  I  never  saw 
the  draught  of  the  charter,  except  when  it  was 
read  to  me  board  of  directors;  I  never  saw  it 
in  the  interval  of  its  preparation. 

[Mr.  Ibbetsvn  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Evereit  (the  Solicitor  to  the  Hospital) 

called  in. 

Give  an  account  to  the  House  of  what  you 
know  relative  to  the  new  charter. — ^To  the 
best  of  my  recollection,  I  received  no  other  di- 
rections, thsui  what  I  received  from  the  secre- 
tary, and  those  in  writing. 

Have  you  a  copy  of  those  directions  that 
you  received  in  wnting  ? — ^I  have  not  a  copy  of 
them  by  me  at  present. 

Do  you  recollect  the  substance  of  them  ? — 
I  do  not.    « 

Do  you  recollect  whether  there  were  any 
directions  to  make  any  alterations  in  the 
charter  from  the  old  commission? — ^None, 
that  I  know  of 

Then  what  did  you  do  in  consequence  pf 
those  directions? — In  consequence  of  those 
directions,  some  old  papers  that  had  been  for- 
merly, as  I  understood,  prepared  on  this  occa- 
sion, for  incorporating  the  Hospital,  were  tum^ 
ed  to ;  and  from  those  papers,  m  which  were  a 
draught  of  a  charter,  which  was  intended  to 
have  been  passed,  as  I  understood  at  that 

G 


83] 


18  6EOROE  III.  Tke  Cote  qfO^ptam  Thomat 


CM 


time,  and  from  the  oommiseion  the  present 
charter  was  drawn. 

Acauaintthe  House  if  you  received  no  direc- 
tions from  any  body  to  make  any  alterations 
in  the  charter,  how  you  came  to  make  any  al- 
terations.— ^I  cannot  immediately  satisfy  your 
lordships  how  I  came  to  make  those  altera^ 
tions;  but  your  lordships  wiU  please  to  ob- 
serve, that  I  had  many  materials  to  take  this 
draught  from;  I  had  no  one  line  to  go  by. 

Prav,  was  not  the  old  commission  a  line  to 
go  by  f — ^It  was  in  a  great  degree,  but  not  to- 
tally so. 

Is  it  not  like  the  old  commission  in  a  great 
manjr  reacts? — It  is  so. 

Is  it  not  word  for  word  in  a  great  part  <^it? 
*-T>I  cannot  recollect  that  circumstance. 

On  what  ground  did  you  make  Uie  altera- 
tions ?  Did  you  make  them,  or  any  body  else  ^ 
•— They  might  be  made  by  me,  Init  I  cannot 
any  ivhether  they  were  or  not;  it  is  a  thing  I 
am  totally  unprepared  to  give  an  answer  to. 

What  occasion  had  you  to  refer  to  those  old 
papers?  Did  any  body  tell  you  to  refer  to 
them  ?— I  don't  recollect  that  thev  did. 

I  thought  you  said  you  referred  to  them? — 
Certainly  I  did  refer  to  them. 

Who  told  you  to  refer  lo  them?— To  the 
beetof  my  recollection,  but  it  is  a  thing  I  can- 
not he  positive  in,  they  were  taken  out  of  the 
record-room,  in  Greenwich  Hospital;  a  place 
for  depositing  the  Hospital  deeds  and  papers. 

What  reason  had  you  logo  to  look  in  tnis  old 
record-room  for  these  papers? — ^I  had  never 
drawn  a  charter  before;  I  wished,  therefore, 
to  see  what  the  idea  had  been ;  wiaerstanding 
long  since,  and  many  times,  that  there  had 
}M)en  such  dreuehts  prepared. 

When  you  <fid  make  these  alterations,  did 
you  acouaint  any  body  wiUi  havmg  made 
these  aIteratH>ns  ?— I  don't  know  that  I  did ; 
and  I  so  Uttle  understood  that  I  was  making 
an  improper,  or  any  deviation  finom  what  the 
charter  should^  or  was  intended  to  have  been, 
that  I  had  no  idea  of  acauainting  any  person 
of  it :  there  was  bo  line  that  I  OHild  oraw  the 
charter  by ;  I  took  i|  sometimes  from  one  pa- 
per, and  sometimes  from  apgther,  as  tiiere 
were  a  great  variety  of  theoL 

Don*-!  you  know  that  there  are  alteratiims 
in  this  pharter  from  the  old  one  ?•— Till  it  was 
pointed  out  in  Mr,  Qatllie's  bpok,  I  did  not 
fi:now  it. 

Did  you  not  know  the  Hospital  had  been 
governed  under  a  commission  from  the  time 
of  its  institution? — ^Yes^Idid. 

You  did  not  then  refer  to  the  original  oomr 
nussion? — I  believe,  I  expressed  myself  so  tp 
your  lordships. 

Then,  if  you  did  refer  to  it,  when  you  drew 
tlus  charter^  do  you  mean  to  say  upon  your 
oath,  that  you  did  not  know  that  tnere  was 
any  materiu  difference  between  them  ? — ^I  did 
not  know  that  there  was  any  more  difference, 
than  what  seemed  to  me  to  be  iiecessaiy  tp 
constitute  a  new  charter. 

I>id  not  you  knpM^  at  th^t  time,  that  Uiere 


was  a  material  difference?--- 1  did  not  think 
the  old  commission  to  be  a  direct  rule  forme  ; 
there  were  many  papers. 

I  understood  you,  that  you  did  not  know 
that  there  was  any  materials  difference  in  th« 
charter,  till  you  was  apprized  of  it  in  captain 
Baillie's  book  ?— These  is  a  diffisrence ;  there 
must  be  a  difference. 

Why  must  .there  be  a  difference  ?**TIm 
commission  did  not  make  a  corporation,  there 
must  be  words  to  that  purpose. 

But  is  there  no  difference  but  that ;  is  lfa« 
recommendation  of  the  general  court  of  com* 
missioners  and  governors  to  the  AdnumHy,  ia 
the  appointment  of  all  the  offices,  left  out  in 
the  cnarter,  or  is  it  not  ?-^It  is  left  out 

Why  was  it  left  out?— I  cannot  undertakw 
to  say  why. 

Did  any  body  desire  you  to  leave  it  outf— - 
No,  so  help  me  God. 

You  took  it  upon  yourself  ?— I  cannot  aa^ 
swer  at  this  distance  of  time,  whether  I  took 
it  upon  myself,  or  wfaa  took  it  upon  theai^ 
selves. 

I  am  aure  I  do  not  mean  to  lead  you,  e^ 
I  thought  the  inference  ftir,  when  you  aail 
nobody  directed  you,  that  yon  took  it  upon 
yourself  ^—^[  cannot  say. 

What  was  your  reason  for  leaving  it  out^— 
I  had  no  particukr  reason  for  leavings  it  out 

Is  it  possible  that  a  man  of  busmeei  cmi 
make  a  nuterial  alteimtkmy  without  hani^ 
some  reason  for  it;  you  are  here  vsgoa  your 
oath,  and  I  insist  upon  knowing  what  ^kmk 
reason  was?--I  do  not  from  my  raoottectioa 
know,  that  either  I  did  or  did  not  Wnve  itoirt^ 
nor  how  it  was  left  out,  I  protest 

There  was  also  a  power  of  removal  of  tlM 
officers,  which  was  not  in  the  oticinal  coib* 
mission,  and  which  is  in  the  new  charter.  Is 
there  not?— I  believe  there  is. 

How  did  that  happen?— I  do  not  recolleel 
how  that  happened. 

Did  any  body  give  you  directions  to  do  itF 
—No.  not  tluit  I  remember,  any  body. 

Did  any  body  else  make  the  alterations^  or 
was  it  you?— Not  that  I  know  of. 

Was  it  you  or  any  body  else? — ^Upon  tbj 
honour,  I  do  not  know,  I  protest 

Do  you  know  the  reason  why  that  alttrfr* 
tkm  was  made?— No.  I  do  not 

Do  you  recollect  tnat  there  is  another  al« 
teration  in  this  charter,  and  the  application  of 
the  money  arising  ftom  the  chariw,  being  fo^ 
the  uses  of  the  Hospital,  is  totally  left  out ;  do 
you  repollect  that?— I  do  not  know  how  it 
came  to  be  left  out;  it  is  a  long  while  for  a 
person's  recollection  to  go  to  December,  1775. 

The  words  I  mean  are  these,  <*  And  we  do 
hereby,  for  us,  our  heirs,  and  successors^ 
strict]^  chaige  and  commuid,  enjoin  and  r^ 
quff^  that  none  of  the  monies,  or  other  things^ 
irhicn  shall  be  gdven,  contributed,  &c.  shall 
he  diverted,  issued,  or  applied,  or  be  in  any 
ways  applicable  to  any  use  or  purpose  what* 
soever,  otherwise  thanr  to  the  chaittaMe  pmv 
poses afi^reoMiitionedy'' &e.   Tbesewordsari 


8S]        re^ecthig  Ae  Roj/d  Hoquid  at  Greewakk.         A.  D.  1778. 


[86, 


feftoatiotlwiiewcluorter;  I  desire  to  know 

if  fou  JiA  thott  oiit?-^!  do  not  know. 
Do  you  know  whether  any  hody  else  loft 

Am  tot?— No,  I  do  not 
Do  tou  know  why  they  were  left  out?-— 

Noy  I  do  not  know  why  they  were  left  out. 

•lliGn  there  are  some  other  words  whkh  are 
imerted;  these  words  are  inserted  in  the  new 
dnrtor,  ''And  also  to  sell,  grant,  demise, 
sfieo,  or  dispose  of  Ae  same  manors,  me«- 
flmges,"  ftc.  Do  yon  know  why  tiiat  power 
of  seUn^  was  introduced  in  the  charter,  selling 
the  whote  estates  of  the  Hospital  ?->I  believe 
tint  claiise  was  found  in  one  of  the  (draughts 
tint  I  had  for  my  guidance ;  but  ifyour  lord- 
sbips  will  please  to  attend  to  the  charter,  ftom 
the  best  ot  my  recollection,  there  is  a  clause 
hnaiediately  preceding  tha^  which  gives  the 
Hosptiri  a  power  to  purchase  estates,  which  I 
beUere  they  had  not  by  the  former  conunis- 
sien ;  it  gives  tfeem  a  power  to  receive  devises 
of  manors,  meseoages,  boids,  and  so  on,  and 
mtumfiatery,  as  I  mink,  this  clause  of  which 
lus  erace  sp»ks,  follows,  and  it  was  not.  to 
the  best  oTm^  memoiy,  then  understood,  mat 
4e  ckuse  giving  a  power  to  the  Hospital  to 
teN  the  estates,  eictended  any  farther  tnan  to 
those  tb^  had  bought,  or  such  as  were  de- 
filed to  mem,  to  the  best  of  my  recollection. 

You  mentioned  materials  tlwt  you  h^  for 
your  guidance,  be  so  good  as  to  mention  what 
they  were  ?— It  is  almost  impossible  for  me  to 
do  that,  who  have  never  seen  them  since. 

Whoe  did  you  take  them  from  ?— To  Uie 
best  of  my  recollection  they  were  taken  £rom 
the  Record-room  in  Greenwich  HospitaJ. 

Who  gave  them  to  you  ?-^Yoiir  lordships 
wiH  please  to  understand,  that  this  Record- 
non  is  under  four  locks  and  keys;  I  have 
te  keeping  of  one  of  tiioee  k^  myself;  I  do 
not  know  who  eave  them  to  me,  but,  from  tile 
keslof  oiy fecMOction,  I  hadthem  from  that 
room. 

Did  you  taiw  them  yourself,  or  any  body 
give  them  to  you? —I  believe,  but  1  cannot 
speak  cerlaBily  to  it ;  I  beheve  that  I  desired 
to  have  them. 

Did  you  return  them  to  that  placed— I 
ttik  they  are  returned,  but  I  cannot  speak 
positively  to  that  point. 

DU  you  keep  any  copies  of  «those  materiah 
Ihatserved  you  for  your  guide?— No,  not  to 
1^  recofiecuon. 

Tour  kwdships  will  be  pleased,  that  thb 
Boitleman  may  come  another  day,  and  I  beg 
M  nay  bring  those  papers  with  him.  If  you 
had  DO  authority  from  any  bo^  to  make  those 
material  alteratkms,  how  came  you  to  lake 
^on  yourself  to  make  them  ? — I  cannot  un- 
dsrtake  to  say  either  that  I  <fid  or  did  not 
make  them;  1  drew  tb  :$  charter  to  the  best  of 
i^afailhy,  and  it  wai  passed  by  Mr.  Eden, 
»dafWr  that  went  to  the  Attorney  and  Soli- 
otov  General,  and  was  finally  settl^. 

Do  you  take  upon  you  to  swear  that  you  db 
vot  know  whether  you  made  any  of  these  ma- 
*B«iatoemlioi»t,  or  who  did  make  thttn,  or 


that  you  received  any  directions  from  any  per- 
son whatever  to  make  any  of  those  altera- 
tions?^! do  not  know  that  I  received  any 
directions  ftom  any  person,  (except,  as  I  said 
before)  fixnn  the  directors  of  the  Hospital  in 
writii^ :  I  considered  myself  acting  under  the 
directions  also  of  Mr.  Eden. 

Did  Mr.  Eden  ^ive  you  any  directions  rela- 
tive to  the  alteration  that  you  mentioned  ? — It 
is  impossible  for  me  to  say  at  this  distance  of 
time,  but  I  think  not ;  I  do  not  know. 

You  swear  then  you  dp  not  know,  yon  do 
not  recollect  whether  any  body  gave  you  any 
directions,  or  whether  it  was  you  or  any  bo<fy 
else  made  them  ? — 1  beheve  I  stated,  that  I 
had  received  directions  from  the  board  of  di- 
rectors, ^iflt  I  considered  myself  acting  under 
Mr.  Eden. 

But  did  you  receive  from  the  board  of  direc- 
tors, or  Mr.  Eden,  any  directions  to  make  al- 
terations in  the  charter  ?— Not  that  I  recollect 

Think  a  IHtle  before  you  answer  the  ques- 
tion 1  am  going  to  ask  you,  and  answer  it  se- 
riously :  I  understand  that  these  alterations  in 
the  charter  were  taken  by  you  from  certain 
loose  papers  that  you  got  out  of  the  Record- 
room  m  Greenwich  Hospital ;  it  was  so,  was 
h?— I  believe  1  informed  your  lordships,  that 
I  had  no  line  to  go  by  upon  that  occa^on; 
that  I  had  never  drawn  acnarter  before ;  that 
I  had  recourse  to  such  papers  as  I  thought 
would  be  iisefoi  to  me;  and  with  them,  the 
be^  judgment  that  I  could  form  upon  the  oe- 
casioOj  and  the  commission,  were  the  things 
by  which  I  was  guided. 

Then  in  the  alterations  in  the  charter, 
which  are  not  found  in  the  commission,  I  ask 
you,  if  you  took  those  alterations  from  the  old 
papers  that  you  got  out  of  the  Record-room  or 
not  ?— I  cannot  undertake  to  say  that  I  did  or 
did  not 

If  yoodid  not  take  them  from  those  papers, 
from  whence  else  could  you  have  them?— 
Upon  my  oath  I  do  liot  know. 

Did  Mr.  Eden  give  you  any  such  instruc- 
tions?—Not  that  I  recollect. 

Did  any  bo<h^  else  whatever  g^  you  such  . 
orders  ?— Not  tnat  I  know  of. 

Unless  you  had  the  autiiority  of  these  pa- 
pers, how  came  you,  without  such  orders,  to 
take  upon  you  to  tal^  the  appointment  of  of^ 
ficers  out  of  the  general  coint,  and  give  it  to 
the  board  of  Adndtalty?— I  do  not  know  at 
this  time  what  was  the  occasion  of  it;  or 
whether  it  was  intended  at  all^  I  do  not  know. 

You  do  not  know  whether  it  was  intended 
to  be  done  ?— I  do  not  know^  my  lord. 

You  will  be  so  good  as  to  mform  their  lordu 
slupe,  how,  as  a  solicitor,  and  a  very  young 
man,  you  could  undertake^  and  could  justify  to 
yourself,  to  make  material  alterations  in  a 
charter,  from  the  original  commission? — I 
understood,  that  I  was  to  draw  the  charter 
from  such  miiterials  as  I  could  get,  and  from 
my  own  jjudgment  about  it ;  I  have  discharged 
my  conscience  about  the  matter,  and  I  do  not 
know  of  any  directionsthat  were  given,  any 


87] 


18  GEORGE  IIL  The  Case  ef  Captain  Thomas  BaiUe, 


[88 


•therwiae  than  those  I  have  stated  to  your 
lordships. 

When  you  carried  the  charter,  to  lay  it  be- 
fore the  Attorpey  ^d  Solicitor  General,  did 
you  then  apprize  those  two  great  lawyers  that 
you  had  altered  several  of  the  points  from  the 
original  commission  ?~I  did  not,  to  the  best 
of  my  recollection,  take  it  to  the  Attorney  and 
Soiiator  General;  a  Mr.  Sibthorpe,  who  was 
at  that  time  concerned  jointly  witn  me,  had  a 
great  deal  of  the  transaction  of  that  business 
¥rith  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  General. 

Do  you  ondertake  to  savthat  you  did  not 
carry  it  to  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  General  ? 
— I  do  not  recollect  that  perfectly. 

As  your  memory  is  so  extremely  short,  I 
imagine  it  is  some  days  since  you  have  been 
summoned  to  attend  this  House,  have  you 
ever  had  the  curiosity,  knowing  that  your  me- 
mory is  so  extremely  defective,  as  it  appears 
here,  to  compare  the  charter  vrith  the  original 
commission  ?«— I  have  looked  at  them. 

How  long  ago  ?— I  was  looking  at  them  thb 
morning. 

How  long  is  it  ago  since  you  were  summon- 
ed to  attend  this  House?— I  believe  about 
ten,  or  positively  [jqu.  possibly]  eleven  days. 

Did  you  not  think  it  material,  when  you 
had  had  so  great  a  hand,  and  absolutely  the 
drawing  of  this  charter,  not  to  refresh  so  short 
a  memoiy  as  vours  is,  with  the  particular  in- 
vestigation of  that  cluLTter,  and  comparing  it 
with  the  commission  before  this  morning  r-— 
No ;  I  have  looked  at  it.  but  not  as  comparinjg 
it,  nor  under  any  idea  ot  giving  evidence  of  it 
here. 

Did  you  ever  take  notice  to  any  body,  that 
you  had  made  these  alterations  in  this  char- 
ter ?^Not  that  I  recollect 

At  no  time  did  you  ever  mention  it  to  any 
body  ?— Not  that  I  know  of. 

How  long  is  it  since  you  have  been  sum- 
moned to  attend  this  House?— I  tlunk,  about 
ten  or  eleven  days. 

Have  you  hadfany  conversation  during  that 
time,  respecting  the  business  of  Greenwich 
Hospital  N— I  have  conversed  at  several  times 
with  various  officers  of  the  Hospital. 

With  whom  upon  this  business? — ^I  believe 
most  of  the  officers;  I  don't  know  any  one 
particularly  that  I  have  conversed  with 
about  it 

Have  you  conversed  upon  the  subject  of 
the  charter  ?— Not  that  I  know  of. 

How  long  have  you  been  the  solicitor  to 
Greenwich  Hospital? — I  was  concerned  witii 
Mr.  Sibthorpe  immediately  after  my  father's 
death,  which  was  ten  years  ago. 

How  were  you  bred?  To  what  business?— 
An  attorney. 

How  long  have  you  been  an  attorney  ? — ^I 
was  an  attorney  very  soon  afler  my  father's 
death. 

We  don't  know  when  your  &ther  died  ?— 
I  believe,  I  explained  to  your  lord^ps,  it  was 
about  ten  years. 

How  long  have  you  been  appointed  solicitor 


to  the  Hospital  ?-r-Alino8t  immediately  upoa 
my  fetber's  death,  which  b  about  ten  years 
ago. 

Were  you  an  apprentice  to  any  attome j 
before  you  was  an  attorney? — ^I  was  clerk  Vm 
my  father. 

How  long? — Not  quite  Ave  years,  but  I 
served  the  remainder  with  Mr.  Sibthorpe. 

I  only  wish  to  ask  the  witness;  he  says 
that  this  new  charter  was  laid  before  the  At- 
torney and  Solicitor  General,  I  desire  to  know 
whether  they  made  any  alterations  in  it,  after 
it  was  laid  before  them  ?^— I  believe,  that  the 
almost,  if  not  entirely,  the  only  alteration 
made  by  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  General, 
was  the  clause  directing  security  to  be  taken. 

Was  the  old  commission  laid  before  the 
Attorney  and  Solicitor  Gveneral  at  the  same 
time,  with  the  draught  of  the  new  charter? — 
I  don't  know. 

Who'  were  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  Ge- 
neral at  that  time? — The  present  Chancellor 
was  Attorney  General,  and  Mr.  Wedderbume^ 
Solicitor. 

So  you  don't  know  whether  the  Attorney  or 
Solicitor  .General  did  know  there  was  any  va- 
riation made  between  the  new  charter  and 
the  old  commission  ? — ^I  don't  know  that  any- 
otherwise,  than  was  necessary  to  constitute  a 
charter;  there  must  be  some  variation,  to  be 
sure. 

[The  witness  was  ordered  to  attend  oa 
Monday  next,  and  bring  those  materials  with 
him,  which  he  made  use  of  in  drawing  up  iJie 
charter.] 

Whether  you  singly  drew  up  the  charter,  or 
whether  Mr.  Sibthorpe  was  concerned  with 
you  in  drawing  it  upr — ^Mr.  Sibthorpe  and  I^ 
to  the  best  of  my  recollection,  drew  it  toge- 
ther. 

He  was  concerned  with  you  in  drawing  of 
it? — ^Yes,hewas. 

I  think  you  say,  Sibthorpe  and  you  togeUier 
drew  it  f^-Yea.  I  think  so. 

Under  the  direction  of  Mr.  Eden  ?— Yes. 

You  recollect  that  was  the  oue,  do  you?— 
Yes,  perfectiy. 

I  suppose,  after  you  had  drawn  this  charter, 
you  delivered  it  to  Mr.  Eden  for  his  perusal  f 
— It  was  laid  before  Mr.  Eden  for  his  perusal. 

When  you  laid  it  before  him,  did  not  yeu  ol^ 
serve  to  him,  that  you  had  made  these  esseifo 
tial  alterations?—!  cannot  recollect,  whether 
I  or  Mr.  Sibthorpe  bud  it  before  him. 

Did  Mr.  Eden  make  any  alterations?—! 
cannot  recollect. 

Mr.  Ibbetson  called  in  again. 

Mr.  M.  In  the  hurry  of  looking  over  tha 
minutes  at  the  bar,  I  did  omit  one  which  I 
should  have  taken  notice  of;  I  did  mention  to 
the  House,  that  there  had  been  an  application 
from  the  general  court  to  parliament,  for  an 
act  of  jparuament  to  incorporate  the  Hospital, 
that  did  not  take  place;  and,  I  find,  upon 
looking  over  the  mimiteBi  stnoa  I  withdrew 


•fS}        nqfteUng  tiui  Ragat  Ho^d  at  Greetmich.         A.  D.  1778. 


n» 


Aom  the  bar,  that  the  draught  of  the  charter 

bd  been  settled  by  the  Attomejr  and  Solicitor 

General,  with  the  addition  of  the  security 

diDK,  was  laid  before  the  general  court,  an^ 

thit  was  on  the  10th  of  Match,  1774.    The 

dbectors  in  their  Memorial  to  that  eeneral 

court  say,  thus:  that  having  laid  herore  the 

Attoroey  and  Solicitor  General,  a  draught  of  a 

cfanrterofincorpoistion  for  the  Hospital,  &c. 

lad  having  addedf  according  to  their  recom- 

BK&dation,  a  clause  for  the  treasurer  to  ^ve 

Kcority,  the  resolution  of  the  general  court 

was,  tha  they  approved  of  the  draught  of  the 

new  charter. 

Who  were  present  at  that  time?— Lord 

Stodwidi,  Mr.  BuHer,  lord  Pahnerston,  lords 

ef  the  Admiralty,  &c.  &c.  in  the  whole  fifteen 

ia  number. 

Was  the  charter  read  paragraph  by  para^ 

Sph  at  the  general  court?— The  draught  of 
charter  appears  to  have  been  read  through ; 
I  recollect  very  well,  that  the  charter  itself 
was  not  read. 

You  say  it  appears,  that  the  draught  was 
Rsd  through,  it  may  be  entered  as  read,  it 
my  appear  so  upon  the  books;  but  were  you 
ffoent  at  the  general  court?— I  don't  recol- 
lect that  it  was  not  read ;  and  I  am  very  well 
convinced,  in  my  own  nund,  that  the  draught 
was  read,  but  that  the  charter  itself  was  not 
lead,  anv  more  than  sometimes  as  your  lord- 
shms' bills  are  read,  just  the  title  of  it 

Please  to  rocoUec^  an4.  will  you  take  upon 
you  to  say  that  it  was  r«d?— I  think  I  can 
venture  to  say  it,  but  I  will  not  say  it  posi- 
tively, but  I  have  no  reason  to  think  that  it 
^«s  not  read. 

Do  you  take  upon  you  to  say  positively  that 
it  was  or  was  not?— I  believe  it  was  read,  I 
know  nothing  to  the  contrarv. 

Whether  it  was  not  one  of  the  points  of  bu- 
aness,  upon  which  they  met  to  consider  of 
this  drai^t? — It  was  a  part  of  the  business 
of  the  day^  it  came  in  among  other  business. 

Was  this  draught  of  the  diarter,  to  the  best 
•f  jtur  knowledge,  read  to  the  general  court  ? 
—To  the  best  of  my  knowledge  and  belief, 
certainly  it  was  read. 

Were  any  of  these  alterations  between  the 
sQounisaion  and  charter,  pointed  out  to  tiie 
geaoal  court  at  t|)at  time? — No,  there  was 
BMhii^  pointed  out  in  it,  that  I  recollect. 

Was  the  commission  produced  at  that  court, 
and  read? — ^No,  it  was  not,  nor  any  compari- 
son made  between  them. 

Did  no  member  there  take  notice  of  any  al- 
teition  between  one  and  the  other?— Not 
that  I  recollect;  and  I  cannot  aee  how  they 
could,  unless  they  had  had  them  both  before 
them? 

How  soon  did  you  observe^  or  were  you  ac- 
qnainied  with  the  alterations  in  the  charter? 
—I  never  knew  any  thing  of  the  alterations 
in^self  in  the  charter;  I  never  compared  it 
with  the  commission;   I  concluded  it  was 

Kly  settled,  having  gone  through  such 
;  tiU  Mr.  Batlli^  pointed  thtm  out  in 


I  his  book,  no  other  alteration  than  the  security 
clause,  that  was  an  addition  as  it  stands  upon 
the  books,  as  recommended  to  be  inserted. 

[Mr.  Ibbetson  withdrew,  and  the  House  ad- 
journed to  Monday.] 

Mr.  Everaiy  the  Solidtor,  called  in. 

Have  you*  brought  those  papers  that  wei« 
ordered  ? — I  have.    [Produces  some  Papers.] 

What  are  these  papers  ? — The  ■  several 
draughts  and  copies  of  charters,  that  I  have 
been  able  to  collect  unce  last  Friday. 

That  you  have  been  able  to  collect? — ^Yes. 

When  were  those  draughts  and  papers  made 
out? — ^The  first  was  drawn  by  myself;  was 
corryted,  as  I  find  afterwards,  by  Mr.  Sib- 
thorpe,  who  was  then  joint  solicitor  of  the 
Hospital  with  me ;  a  copy  was  made  fi«ni 
that,  and  laid  before  Mr.  Eden,  and  corrected 
by  him  after  that;  three  copies  were  made^. 
one  for  the  Attorney  GeneraL  one  for  the  So- 
licitor General,  and  another  for  Mr.  Eden. 

Are  those  all  the  papers  that  you  have  pro- 
duced?— I  was  going  on,  if  the  Ctmmutleo 
will  eive  me  leave :  the  Attorney  and  Soli- 
citor General  advised,  by  an  opinion  in  writing 
at  the  end  of  one  of  them,  that  a  clause  should 
be  added  for  the  treasurer  to  eive  security: 
this  was  laid  before  the  board  otdirectors,  and 
thev  ordered  the  clause  to  be  drawn ;  accord- 
ingly a  copy  was  then  made  for  the  board, 
with  the  clause  inserted;  I  find,  l^  the  mi- 
nutes  of  the  board,  that  it  was  then  laid  be- 
fore the  board,  and  they  made  alterations  in 
it ;  from  thence  another  copy  vras  made  for 
the  general  court,  and  by  ttiem  finally  ap- 
proved. 

Are  these  all  the  papers? — ^I  have  not  them 
all. 

Are  those  that  you  have  been  describing  all 
the  papers  ^ou  have  brought  vrith  your— I 
will  r«id  their  titles. 

Are  the^.  or  are  they  not,  all  you  have 
brought  With  you  ? — ^I  have  not  brought  all  I 
have  been  describing, because  I  couldnot  find 
them  all;  what  I  nave  brought  is  tiiefint 
draught  which  I  drew  myself,  and  which  was 
corrected  by  Mr.  Sibthorpe ;  that  was  after- 
wards corrected  by  Mr.  Eden,  and  then  the 
third  draught  was  corrected  by  the  Attorney 
and  Solicitor  General,  and  Mr.  Eden. 

Have  you  any  papers  but  what  you  have 
produced  ?^None,  but  what  I  have  produced. 

Have  you  searched  into  the  record-room, 
and  made  any  enquiry  concerning  these  old 

Spers  and  draughts  you  spoke  of  the  other 
y?— I  have  been  into  the  record-room  and 
searched  there ;  I  found  that  the  papers  were 
not  there,  but  in  my  possession,  and  I  have 
now  delivered  them  to  your  lordships. 

Were  there  any  other  alterations  ever  made 
in  the  draiight  of  the  charter,  but  those  you 
have  mentioned  ? — ^No. 

Did  you  ever  converse  with  any  body  else, 
but  those  that  you  have  named,  upon  tha- 
drawing  of  the  charter,  to  [au.  with]  my  lord 
Sandwich,  or  any  of  the  loros  of  the  Adou* 
ral^?^N^. 


18  GEORGE  HI.  The  Cau  qfCaptaiii  Thaam  BaUUei         [9S 

but  the  answer  ww,  you  had  better  go  to  the 
usual  foim  for  it  through  the  crown  offiGcn; 
we  don't  wish  it  agitated  here.  The  business 
of  the  charter  then  went  on,  and  several  meet- 
ings were  had  about  it;  I  beliere  about  this 
time,  till  in  the  month  of  March^  17711,  that  I 
then  pve  instructionB  to  the  solicitors  of  the 
Hosphal.  Mr.  Sibthorpe  and  Mr.  Eveiesi; 
Mr.  Sibthorpe,  very  emment  in  his  professioB 
there,  and  a  man  we  had  iiill  confidence  in; 
Mr.  Everest  was  then  a  very  younff  man;  I 
directed  them  to  prepare  a  draught  for  us  to 
look  at  They  prepared  a  draught  upon  the 
ground  of  the  Foundling  HospitaPs  charter 
and  the  commission,  takmg  out  as  much  of 
the  commission  as  they  tfaoueht  applied  far 
the  benefit  of  the  Hospital;  when  it  came  to 
be  put  into  the  charter,  I  did  not  know  who 
prepaiedit,but  I  now  understand  Mr.  Everest 
did ;  Mr.  Sibthorpe  corrected  it,  and  brau{^ 
it  so  corrected  to  UK.  Thbdon't  car^nau  I 
believe,  later  down  than  the  month  of  itoeh ; 
I  made  some  corrections,  which  I  understand 
are  now  before  the  House,  and  which  nu^  be 
aeen ;  in  making  those  corrections,  i  should 
not  have  thought  it  necessary  to  have  retabied 
a  single  syllable  of  the  commission,  if  I  eould 
have  suggested  better  words;  I  beheve,  howu 
ever,  itso  happened,  that  in  general  the  ex- 
pressions of  the  old  commission  ate  retained, 
as  iiir  as  they  were  proper  to  be  retained. 
There  were  several  o&er  things  occurred  in 
settling  that  charter,  which  seamed  material 
to  be  attended  to  for  the  benefit  of  the  Ho9w 
pital.  Hitherto  we  had  a  considetaUe  estsk 
blishment  for  the  benefit  of  the  beys  who 
were  sons  of  seamen.  That  establishmeat 
had  not  been  r^ularly  put  under  theestar- 
blishment  of  the  Hospital ;  it  arose  from,  and 
was  supported  by,  some  c^^gent  sunii. 
The  boys  ffo  off  in  three  years  toknd^  com- 
pleted m  their  education.  This  wae  srown 
so  considerable  an  establishment,  tSat  il 
seemed  material  to  subject  that  to  a  eenenl 
court,  and  the  general  form  that  goes  wongh 
the  rest  of  the  regular  business  that  is  inserted 
in  the  charter,  not  in  the  former  oonumaskMn ; 
so  all  the  security  clauses  of  those  that  have 
the  Hospital  money  pass  throuj^  theii  haads» 
were  submitted  for  the  opinion  of  the  Attam 
ney  and  Solicitor  Genend,  and  they  gave 
their  opinion  that  it  was  necessary  to  insott 
such  a  clause :  that  is  a  oonsidnabls  benefit 
to  the  Hospital,  as  at  all  times  there  is  at  least 
50,000/.  or  60,000/.  m  cirodation^  fot  which 
liie  Hospital  before  had  no  secunty^  and  for 
which  it  has  now  a  full  security,  'fhcre  were 
some  provisions  put  into  the  charter  about 
the  i^er  of  altering  and  dy»poang  of  the 
Hospital's  lands,  which  I  hear  has  dnwm 
some  attenti<m.  As  £ur  as  I  can  lecolleet  of 
the  matter,  I  apprehend  that  no  such  power  ef 
aliening  or  disposing  of  at^  thing  b  men  by 
these  woids :  I  conceive  them  to  oe  mere 
words  of  fonn,  so  &r  as  relates  to  any  p06a»« 
bility  of  impainng  the  property  of  the  HospW 
*  Now  [a.  d.  i;i4.]  Lord  AttAlaait,  tal :  I  conceive  that  evcfy  purchaser  tnkM» 


91] 

Nor  receive  any  message  up<m  the  subject 
fimn  any  body  ?— Ngne. 

Was  Mr.  Ibbetson  concerned  in  drawing  up 
that  charters—Not  by  any  means. 

What  was  the  expence  of  the  charter? — ^I 
have  not  taken  that  out. 

Do  you  know  how  much  you  have  received 
upon  that  account  ?•— Upon  account  of  the 

doarter? 

Upon  account  of  the  expence  of  passing  it? 
— I  am  not  prepared  at  present  to  answer  that 
question,  but  I  believe  it  was  upwards  of  a 
UKWsand  pounds :  if  the  House  have  any  i^sh 
to  go  into  that,  I  will,  upon  another  day,  proo 
duce  idl  the  papers  I  can  respecting  thaU 

When  did  you  propose  to  return  those  par 
pers  tiiat  belongeo  to  the  record-rocMn  ? — ^I  had 
not  foied  any  tune  in  my  own  mind  about  it; 
I  really  thought  they  were  returned ;  it  has 
been  a  long  tune  since  I  have  seen  any  thing 
of  then. 

Have  you  compared  any  of  those  old  papers 
unce  you  were  here  on  Friday  with  the  pre* 
sent  cnarter,  to  see  whether  the  alterations  in 
this  new  charter  are  contained  in  these  old 
papers  ?-*Some  of  them  are  in  the  old  draught 
of  a  charter  in  George  the  Snd^s  time,  which 
I  have  ddivered  to  your  lordships. 

Is  that  part  contained  in  that  old  p«per, 
which  gives  authority  to  the  lords  of  the  Ad- 
miralty to  sell  the  Hospital  laud?— I  don't 
know. 

That  charter  never  passed,  did  it  ?— No. 
[Mr.  Everest  withdrew.] 

The  Auditor,  Mr.  Eden^  called  in. 

Please  to  nve  the  Committee  an  account 
of  what  you  Know  relative  to  the  passing  the 
newcluurter  of  Greenwich  Hospital? — ^In  the 
begimung  of  the  year  1779.  Mr.  Ellis,  the 
steward  of  the  Hospital,  fiuleu  for  a  consider- 
able sum  of  money,  I  believe  about  d,MM>/. ; 
I  was  at  that  time  at  the  fawr,  and  acted  as 
ooiiOttal  for  the  Hospital;  it  was  my  duty  to 
settle  the  form  ^  recovering  this  money;  I 
found,  on  looldng  into  the  matter,  that  it  was 
veiv  difficult  to  curect  a  mode  of  prosecution; 
and  I  also  found,  that  if  any  such  mode  could 
be  carried  o%  there  weie  no  means  of  recover- 
ing, in  case  Mr.  Ellis's  circumstaiices  should 
be  found  tnsoKent ;  for  there  had  been  no 
jMUiUj!  ^^nM  bv  him,  or  indeed  anv  other 
person,  entrusted  with  the  money  of  tne  Hos- 
pital: it  was  my  duty  to  represent  this  to  the 
beard  of  directors;  andlpomtedouttothem, 
that  thev  were  ctorectcd  under  the  commis- 
siooy  under  vriiich  we  acted,  to  have  a  char- 
ter. I  knew  that  under  that  charter  it  would 
be  easy  to  euard  aratnst  any  such  iioconve- 
nienoe  in  foture.  The  board  upon  this  di- 
facted  that  the  matter  should  be  consideied,  I 
believe,  by  myself,  and  the  then  Attorney  and 
Soifitor  General.  It  was  our  first  wish  of 
aUy  I  believe,  to  have  had  this  charter  passed 

It  was  moved  in  parliament, 


tSj       nspecling  ike  Royal  Hospital  at  Greemoich.  A.  D.  i77d. 


[M 


iriljsctlDthattnist,  and  at  his  own  peril;  so 

fir  m  those  wovds  Ave  a  power  of  purchasing, 

IdonHknow,  I  rather  apprehend  tney  do  not; 

Ar  ia  cases  sabsequent,  I  understand  it  has 

kci  kmd  oecessaiy  to  liave  special  licences 

Aon  flie  crown  to  nuike  those  purchases ;  and 

k  Kgud  to  exchanges,  it  happened  two  years 

agOy  when  there  was  an  exchange,  and  then 

it  wu  found  necessary  to  pass  an  act  for  that 

piapoie,  which  aet  actuaUy  passed. 

I  have  not  looked  into  tne  thine,  because 
As  House  did  not  give,  me  notice  S^t  I  was 
M  h$  summoned  here ;  I  heard  it  by  accident ; 
I  have  not  had  much  time  to  look  into  it ; 
bu^  I  believe,  that  upon  looking  into  the  acts, 
mdk  vest  tne  IDeiwentwater  estates  in  the 
Hbapila],  it  will  be  found,  that  no  charter  of 
4ie  nog's  akme  can  turn  and  affect  that,  ex- 
chtsive  of  the  nature  of  the  trust,  by  which 
•BT  purchaser  might  be  subject  to  the  trust ; 
1 00  not  ^  this  moment  recollect  any  other 
mstioiis  m  the  charter.  There  h  an  omis- 
M,  which  has  been  taken  notice  of:  the  go- 
asEU  courts  recommending  the  persons  proper 
Id  be  admitted ;  the  words  that  were  m  the 
M  eommission  w^*e,  I  believe,  pretty  nearly 
th«e,  that  the  commissioners,  meaning  the 
faend  court,  shall  recommend  to  the  board 
w  Admiraltv,  to  appoint  officers  necessary  for 
the  Hospital.  Now  I  can  only  suppose  what 
I  <Kd  th«n  tiiink ;  by  what  I  think  now  upon 
%  it  can  only  lutve  one  of  two  meanings, 
Ma  that  I  must  have  thought  at  that  time, 
Ihatthe  commissioners  were  meant  to  recom- 
ttMd  the  persons,  so  that  tiiey  must  be  ap- 
pointed; in  which  case  I  should  have  had  no 
hesitatioD  of  striking  it  out,  because  I  am 
desriy  of  opinion,  it  is  a  much  better  trust  to 
bsiathe  hands  of  the  board  of  Admiralty, 
^must  know  the  merits  <^  seamen  who 
h»re  served,  than  in  the  hands  of  persons 
^rcbpectahle  in  life,  but  not  seamen.  I 
vujerstand  this  is  an  old  clause,  from  the  first 
ttstitotion  of  the  Hospital ;  and  I  conceive 
that  the  words  meant,  that  the  commissioners 
should  recommend  all  officers  necessary  to  be 
xtpsinted;  so  many  captains,  so  many  lieu- 
^eQants,and  so  on ;  but  that  the  board  of  Ad- 
■ihalty  are  to  name  the  particular  captains 
ud  lieutenants.  There  is  a  clause  too,  giving 
weAdmiralUr  ^wer  to  displace.  Now,  as 
w  as  that  addition  goes,  I  believe,  it  restrains 
"•power  of  the  Admiralty:  the  Admiralty 
■JwtoappcHnt,  and  do  now,  indeed,  till  fir- 
mer ofderj  what  I  must  have  thought  was 
vis^  that  mis  is  rather  a  hard  tenure  upon  an 
oU  officer  in  the  Hospital,  that  he  should 
hoW  it  during  the  will  of  the  board  of  Admi- 
™ty,  whatever  his  behaviour  was ;  therefore, 
jMawted,  I  think,  they  should  have  power  to 
*M«cefbr  misbehavkyor.  There  were  some 
2*«jjwds,  that  the  revenue  of  the  Hospital 
™odd  be  applied  to  the  purposes  of  the  chak 
™y>  «pd  no  other  purposes  whatever;  I  don't 
K<»Bect  (it  will  appear)  whether  I  scratched 
?*^^»OTds;  if  1  did,  I  am  not  ashamed  of 
9?  Decaose  they  are  words  ^t  mean  nothing; 


and,  at  this  instant,  if  applied  to  any  purposes, 
except  the  purposes  of  the  charity,  they  are 
punishable.  1  don't  know  whether  I  hAV% 
answered  the  noble  lord's  question,  but  I 
donH  recollect  any  thing  more  at.present. 

Whether  the  committee  is  to  understand 
from  what  you  have  sud,  that  these  several 
alterations  in  the  charter  were  made  by  yoor^ 
self  ?— Upon  my  word  timt  is  a  veiy  haitl 
question  to  answer;  I  have  not  seen  the 
paper,  except  casting  my  eyes  upon  than  h| 
the  bundle ;  I  have  not  seen  them  to  examine 
them,  therefore  I  cannot  tell ;  at  the  distance 
of  seven  years^  it  is  impossible  for  me  to  knom 
If  any  body  will  take  the  trouble  to  examine 
them,  my  hand-writins  is  very  easy  to  be 
seen,  wheth^  I  altereothem or  no;  I  appie* 
hena  I  am  responsible  for  every  word  that  Is 
in  this  charter. 

I  don't  mean  whether  you  are  answerable 
for  H  or  not;  but  I  want  to  know  the  hcL 
whether  you  made  the  alterations  pr  not;  if 
you  wish  to  satisfy  yourself^  bv  looking  into 
the  draueht  that  is  laid  before  tne  House,  that 
may  easuy  be  handed  up  to  you,  to  rdresh 
your  memory? — If  you  will  please  to  let  me 
see  the  draught,  I  will  tell  your  lordships. 

(The  draught  is  handed  to  Mr.  Eden.) 

Mr.  Eden.  I  certainly  did  notUter  every 
thins,  because  I  see  in  the  Attorney  OeneraFs 
brief,  there  are  some  passages  that  aie  altered. 

Please  to  look  at  the  alterations,  one  by  one, 
and  acquaint  the  committee  of  what  yon  have 
altered  r — ^In  my  brief^  there  does  not  happen 
to  be  one  alteration,  which  I  am  surprkea  at : 
but,  I  believe,  the  reason  was,  I  had  quit^ 
the  bar  before  it  was  brought  to  me. 

Then,  fix>m  thence,  are  we  to  uadarstand, 
that  none  of  the  alterations  were  nufede  by 
you?-— I  am  afVaid  to  say  that,  because  the 
solicitor's  having  free  access  to  me,  many 
thingsthat  may  appear  to  be  altered,  might 
be  by  their  askmg,  and  my  suggesting  aHera* 
tions :  I  should  mention,  that  there  appears 
to  be  a  great  delay  in  tnis  business;  it  wa« 
slated  in  the  beginning  of  tike  year  1779,  and 
was  not  completed  tiu*  tiie  end  of  the  year 
1775 ;  in  the  course  of  that  time  it  was  revised 
very  repeatedly  by  difierent  persons;  and 
was,  I  believe,  a  long  time  before  the  Attorney 
and  Solicitor  General ;  ihey  had  too.  much  bu- 
siness to  give  it  out  of  their  hands^  but  at  last 
it  did  come,  though  I  have  sent  for  tlMttr  re- 
port upon  it ;  it  was  brought  to  me  f^m  ^tM 
secretary  of  state's  office,  and  I  have  it  here| 
if  the  House  wish  to  see  it. 

(It  is  banded  up  to  the  table.) 

There  were  some  other  persons  consulted 
in  this  charter.  I  believe;  who  were  these 
persons?  I  understood  you  to  say,  it  was  laid 
before  the  Attorney  and  ^licitor  General, 
and  soine  other  persons  ?-~I  am  misunder- 
stood, I  am  afraid ;  I  don't  recollect  any  othet  ^ 
persons,  except  Mr.  Sibthorpe,  the  solicitor  of' 
the  Hospital;  I  Ad  not  mean  to  say  sir. 


W] 


18  GEORQE  UL  The  Case  of  Captain  Thonuu 


r 


[99 


Can  you  recollect  that  particular  circum-r 
Btance.  of  th^  recominendation  being  taken 
£rom  tne  general  court,  having  been  agitated 
and  di9CU88ed  between  you  and  any  other  per- 
aon?— No,  I  do  not  indeed ;  it  is  very  aiffi- 
cultyupon  the  short  notice  I  have  had,  to 
have  any  recollection  of  these  particulars.  I 
don't  know  how  it  happened,  but  I  had  not 
that  attention  shewn  me  which  is  usual ;  for  I 
bad  not  any  notice  of  it.  till  I  went  into  the 
House  of  Commons  to-oay ;  and  if  I  had  not 
be^n  very  miich  disposed  to  it,  I  should  not 
have  attended,  for  the  House  would  have  in- 
terposed respecting  it. 

X  ou  have  said,!  think,  that  you  look  upon 
yourself  as  answerable  for  all  these  alterations, 
irhether  you  made  them  or  not,  as  the  draught 
was  lud  before  you?  Do  you  think  that  a 
proper  alteration  for  the  recommendation  be- 
Vig  made  to  the  board  of  Admiralty,  from  the 
general  court?  you  said,  that  the  board  of  Ad- 
miralty were  much  better  judges  of  the  merit 
of  seamen;  that  though  the  general  court 
consisted  of  very  respectable  persons,  yet 
they  were  not  seamen.  Had  you  it  in  con- 
templation, that  the  general  court  consisted 
of  all  the  flag-of&cersr-r-I  conceive  that  the 
seamen  have  the  best  guardians  of  their  me- 
nts  at  the  board  of  Amnirsdty ;  but  there  b 
another  objection,  which  is  a  very  forcible 
one ;  that  is,  that  the  general  court  meet  at 
very  uncertain  times,  sometimes  at  six  or 
seven  months  distance.  Now  suppose  a  cap- 
tain in  Greenwich  Hospital  dies. 

The  general  court  were  directed  to  assem- 
ble four  .times  a  year,  by  the  commission ;  by 
this  charter,  which  you  have  taken  upon  you 
to  answer  tor,  they  are  directed  to  assemble 
twke  a  yepur;  but,  I  believe,  they  can  at  any 
time  assemble  a  court? — The  charter  directs 
them  to  assemble  twice  a  year;  before,  they 
were  directed  to  assemble  four  times  a  vear; 
but  many  things  broke  through  that,  ancf  they 
could  not  meet  upon  it 

As  ]^ou  don't  recollect  at  all  any  one  of  the 
alterations,  can  you  take  upon  you  to  say, 
whether  they  were  of  your  recommending  or 
putting  in? — ^I  believe,  if  they  were  gone 
throu^  singly,  many,  I  should  vouch  for 
v^  readily,  to  the  best  of  my  belief. 

The  draught  you  have  been  looking  at,  is, 
I  presume^  Uie  draught  in  the  hand-writing 
ot  the  Sohcitor? — ^It  is. 

Was  that  draught  the  first  you  ever  saw  of 
this  business;  had  you  conversed  with  the 
SoiUcitor.  or  any  other  person,  upon  the  sub- 
ject, before  you  saw  the  draught? — ^At  that 
time  I  must  nave  conversed  very  firequeutly, 
because  I  was  much  at  Greenwich,  and  at- 
tended the  board  very  frequently,  and  must, 
as  I  saw  the  Solicitor  there,  converse  with 
him  frequently. 

Then,  I  should  presume,  you  can  recollect 
whether  you  were  the  adviser,  or  any  other 
person,  of  those  alterations? — I  should  pre- 
;isume  I  was  the  adviser,  as  I  was  ihuch  more 
acquainted  with  the  subject  than  the  Attorney 


or. Solicitor  General  were,  and  they  bdng 
much  more  employed  than  I  was  in  other 
matters. 

You  still  seem  to  think,  that  all  these  alte- 
rations might  spring  originally  from  yourself? 
— ^I  think,  m  the  nature  of  the  business,  the^ 
must  have  sprung  from  myself;  I  think  it 
was  more  likely  the  Solicitor  would  have  con* 
suited  tne  about  them,  than  have  taken  it 
upon  himself,  as  I  was  always  attentive 
to  it. 

Then  it  was  of  your  own  suggestion,  to  take 
the  power  from  the  general  court,  and  give  it 
to  the  Admiralty?^  don't  think  that  is  done 
by  the  charter. 

I  will  read  the  words  of  the  commission  to 
you,  [reads  them]  *^  And  we  do  l^reby  em- 
power and  direct  you,  our  said  commissioners, 
or  any  seven  or  more  of  you,  to  recommend  to 
our  commissioners  for  executing  the  office  of 
high  admiral  now,  and  for  the  time  being ;  or 
our  hieh  admiral  for  the  time  bdhg,  to  ap- 
point, mm.  time  to  time,  all  officers  necessary 
to  be  employed  in  and  for  the  said  Hospital ; 
and  we  do  hereby  empower  our  commissioners 
for  executing  the  offi^  of  high  admiral  now^ 
and  for  the  time  being,  to  appoint  all  such  ou 
ficers  accordingly,  except  tne  governor  and 
treasurer  of  the  said  Hospital,  provided,  that 
for  the  future,  all  such  persons  to  be  so  re- 
commended and  admitted  into  the  said  Hos- 
pital, as  the  officers  of  the  house,  or  otherwise, 
be  sea-&ring  men,  &c.  &c."  These  are  the 
words  of  the  commission.  Do  tiiese  words 
import,  or  do  they  not,  that  the  general  court 
have  the  power  of  recommending  all  their 
officers  ?— I  don't  know  what  I  thought  then, 
but  I  now  think,  that  those  words  do  merely 
mean  only  this,  that  the  general  court  was  ta 
recommend  the  officers  necessary,  that  it  was 
to  recommend  the  establishment  of  the  Hoa- 

Eital;  because,  I  believe,  that  the  clause  will 
e  found  in  the  original  charter,  before  there 
was  any  establishment  at  all ;  that  is  to  say, 
that  there  should  be  so  many  captains,  so 
manv  boatswains.  &c.  and  that  then  the  Ad- 
mirals was  to  fill  them  up,  by  inserting  pro- 
per officers,  those  officers  being  seamen. 

The  commission  says,  that  the  general 
court  are  to  recommend,  and  the  Admindty  t» 
appoint  accordingly,  as  they  are  recommend- 
ed. Now  the  recommendation,  such  as  it  is, 
is  totally  omitted  here.  I  desire  to  know, 
whether  that  omission  of  ^e  recommendation 
is  of  your  doing  and  advising,  or  whether  it 
came  from  any  other  quarter? — ^It  certeinly 
must  be  of  my  doing,  or  of  my  approving. 

And  fix)m  no  other  quarter  whatever  ? — ^No; 
excepting  the  solicitor  of  the  Hospital,  I  don't 
know  that  ever  I  consulted  an  v  person  in  my 
life ;  and,  if  it  is  an  allusion,  that  I  consulted 
with  the  Admiralty,  I  must  say,  very  solemn- 
ly, that  I  don't  bdieve  that  the  Admiralty 
knew  of  this  thing  till  it  was  in  a  great  degree 
of  completion ;  I  believe  the  charter  was  ver^ 
batim,  as  it  now  stands,  before  the  Adniiftdty 
knew  of  it ;  and,  I  believe,  there  are  minute^ 


9f]         raptcitmg  the  Royal  Hatplal  at  Greenmch.         A.  D.  1778. 


\m 


m  the  possesion  of  the  <  Admiralty,  if  they 
choose  to  look  to  them,  that  will  prove  that. 

I  understood  Mr.  Everest,  the  other  dav, 
that  he  took  those  alterations  from  certain  old 
papers,  &om  former  charters? — Here  is  a 
oiaiightof  a  charter,  I  believe  in  the  year 
1780. 

Are  any  of  these  alterations  suggested*  in 
thb  cbarter? — I  believe,  if  it  is  looked  at,  it 
will  not  be  found,  that  this  charter,  though 
drawn  by  able  men  at  the  time^  followed  a 
angle  word  of  the  existing  commission  at  the 
time ;  I  believe  the  persons  that  drew  it  did 
not  think  it  necessary  to  adhere  to  the  old 
charter,  but  to  draw  a  good  charter  from  them, 
for  which  they  would  be  answerable. 

If  I  understood  you  rigjht,  vou  said,  and  re- 
peated it  just  now,  that  m  drawing  the  new 
charter,  you  did  not  feel  yourself  ooimd,  or 
limiled  in  any  respect,  by  the  commission  ? — 
I  certainly  meant  to  draw  as  good  a  charter 
ibr  the  Hospital,  as  I  could  draw. 

Then  the  charter  you  looked  upon  as  tanta- 
mount to  a  new  constitution  of  Greenwich 
Hospital  ? — I  looked  upon  it,  as  the  instru- 
ment which  vras  to  give  further  powers,  that 
were  found  in  the  commission  to  be  wantins, 
and  to  draw  every  thing  else  for  the  benefit 
of  the  Hospital  that  could  possibly  be  done 
under  that  instrument. 

Did  you  feel  yourself,  in  that  situation, 
warranted  in  drawing  and  forming  a  new  con- 
stitution for  Greenwich  Hospital,  without 
consulting  any  of  the  king's  ministers  what- 
ever, and  particularly  those  at  the  liead  of  tiie 
naval  albirs  ? — I  don't  feel  that  I  did  draw  a 
new  constitution,  only  that  I  was  drawing 
improvements  to  what  was  existing  before, 
snd  some  essentially  necessary. 

Did  you,  or  did  you  not,  in  respect  to  these 
improvements,  take  the  opinion  of  anv  person 
in  the  king's  council  ? — I  solemnly  declare  I 
did  not 

I  shall  be  glad  to  ask  you  a  question,  which 
aeems  a  weighty  one:  you  said,  that  you 
thought  y6urself  responsible  for  the  alterations 
in  the  draught  of  the  charter,  tiiough  the  al- 
terations should  not  be  founa  in  your  hand- 
writing. Now  I  ask  whether  you  do  not  think 
you  were  exonerated  from  that  responsibility, 
nom  the  moment  you  laid  the  draught  of  that 
charter  before  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  Ge- 
neral,  and  had  their  approbation  of  it? — I  cer- 
tainly shall  be  veiy  glad  to  share  any  cnmi^ 
nah^'  with  the  then  Attorney  and  Solicitor 


In  what  year  were  you  appointed  auditor  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  ? — ^In  March,  1771. 

Whom  did  you  succeed  ? — The  present  lord 
chancellcM*. 

What  do  you  look  upon  to  be  your  duty  as 
auditor  of  Greenwich  Hospital  ?— To  audit  the 
accounts,  atler  a  manner  prescribed  by  the 
constitution  of  Greenwich  Hospital ;  there  is 
a  book  recites  that. 

Do  you  not,  at  yomr  first  appointment,  look 
ipon  yourself  as  counsel  for  Greenwj|ch  Hos- 

V04  xxz. 


pital  ?— As  that  office  always  used  to  be  filled 
by  a  barrister,  it  was  a  mark  of  attention  in 
appointing  me,  I  then  being  a  banister; 
when  I  discontinued  being  a  barrister,  I  gave 
up  every  paper  respecting  the  Hospital. 

Were  not  you  a  diredor  at  first  ? — ^I  was, 
two  or  three  months. 

How  ? — ^I  was  a  director  by  warrant. 

Are  you  now  ? — Yes. 

How  ? — Ex  officio.  Before  I  was  personally 
auditor,  and  personally  director  \  at  present,  I 
am  auditor  and  tx  officio  director :  if  I  cease 
to  be  auditor,  I  cease  to  be  director ;  before  I 
had  warrants  by  name  from  the  Admiralty. 

Who  laid  the  new  charter  before  the  Attor- 
ney and  Solicitor  General,  or  by  whose  direc- 
tions was  it  laid  before  them  ? — I  fancy  it  was 
by  the  direction  of  the  board.  If  the  minutes 
of  the  board  are  called  for^  I  fancy  it  will  be 
found,  that  the  draught  of^  the  charter  being 
produced,  it  was  ordered  to  be  laid  before  the 
Attorney  and  Solicitor  General. 

Whether  there  was  any  particular  opinion, 
stated  in  writing,  to  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor 
General,  or  the  copy  of  the  commission  laid 
before  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  General  to 
be  compared.  Was  any  opinion  asked  ? — ^The 
charter  recites  that  commission ;  I  apprehend 
the  commission  was  laid  before  them ;  but  if 
not,  I  take  it  for  granted,  the  Attorney  and 
Solicitor  General  must  have  examined  it  at 
the  time,  because  it  is  recited  in  the  draught 
of  the  charter. 

Then  no  particular  opinion  was  desired  of 
any  particular  fact? — ^No;  I  apprehend  all 
that  was  done,  was  giving  this  paper  to  their 
clerks,  which  is  a  draught  of  the  cnarter,  and 
which  they  have  signed  at  the  bottom,  afler 
making  any  alterations  that  they  had  thought 
necessary. 

How  long  was  the  charter  laid  before  the 
Attorney  and  Solicitor-General,  before  it  was 
returned  to  you? — ^It  was  never  to  be  re- 
turned to  me;  I  was  not  the  solicitor  for  thok 
charter,  it  was  laid  before  me  in  the  same 
manner  as  it  was  laid  before  them.  When  I 
Quitted  the  bar,  I  gave  back  my  brief,  and 
tney  having  other  occunations,  I  believe  did 
not  give  it  back  till  Marcn  1773 ;  I  know  that, 
as  a  director  of  the  Hospital ;  I  believe  it  was 
returned  by  them  in  tne  spring  following ; 
then  several  difficulties  and  delays  arose;  I 
believe,  about  the  quantum  of  security  to  be 
given  by  persons  having  the  Hospital's  mo- 
ney; that  carried  iton^  I  believe,  until  the 
end  of  the  year  1775,  before  the  whole  business 
was  arranged  and  settied. 

You  say  you  sire  answerable  for  all  that  is 
lefl  out.  In  the  appointment,  *  in  and  for 
Greenwich  Hospital  to  be  seafaring  men,'  why 
was  the  word  **  for'  lefl  out  ? — I  did  not  know 
that  it  was  left  out^  I  don't  know  now  that  it 
is  left  out. 

^  All  the  officers  of  the  House,  or  otherwise, 

to  be  seafaring  men,'  why  are  the  words  '  or 

otherwise'  left  out  ? — I  should  rather  venture 

to  risk  the  saying^  it  was  not  ioserted  in  any 

H 


99] 


IS  GEORGE  III.         The  Case  of^aptain  Thmas  BaULk^         (KM 


draught  that  was  laid  before  me ;  I  will  ven- 
ture to  say^  I  should  not  have  put  it  into  any 
^ught,  and  will  venture  to  say,  I  should  npt 
have  struck  it  out.  I  forgot  to  mention  there 
'was  an  act  of  parliament  passed,  in  regard  to 
the  landed  estate^  a  year  after  this  charter, 
which  takes  notice  of  the  charter. 

I  understood  you,  that  the  motives  of  the 
new  charter  was  to  vest  the  landed  estates, 
and  give  a  power  to  buy  and  sell  landed 
estates. — ^No.  by  no  means,  the  meat  motives 
of  the  new  cnarter  were,  to  enable  the  Hospi- 
tal to  act  in  all  those  capacities  that  it  was  ne- 
cessary a  corporation  should  act  in ;  because, 
it  was  before  necessary  to  make  every  mem- 
ber of  tiie  Hospital  a  party  in  civil  suits.  An- 
other great  motive  was,  to  give  the  Hospital  a 
«ecuri^  Tor  their  money.  Another  was  the 
case  of  the  boys. 

The  other  alterations  of  the  charier  were 
made  by  the  solicitor,  which  you  did  not  at- 
tend to  ? — ^I  cannot  quite  say  so,  because  my 
own  hand  is  before  the  House  and  may  prove 
against  me,  but  I  rather  believe  it  is  so. 

Was  the  charter  confirmed  by  act  of  parlia- 
inent? — ^Not  strictiy,  but  there  b  an  act  to 
vei«t  the  estates,  which  were  prior  to  the 
charter,  and  by  charter  were  strictiy  vested 
by  two  acts  of  George  the  Snd.  There  is  an 
act,  a  year  af\er  this  charter,  which  vests 
them  out  of  the  king  into  the  commissioners, 
pursuant  to  charter,  and  which  recites  this 
charter  at  that  time. 

It  appears,  by  the  Records,  that  this  matter 
of  charter  had  been  in  agitation  several  times 
formerly? — I  believe  from  the  beginning  of 
the  century.  I  believe  there  are  draughts  of 
charters  as  old  as  1790,  but  all  that  time  the 
Hospital  was  in  a  fluctuating,  unsettied  body, 
and  rather  pressed  for  supports,  and  not  in  the 
magnitude  that  I  found  it. 

You  take  that  to  be  the  reason,  when 
draughts  were  made,  that  the  Hospital's  reve- 
nues were  not  sufficient  ? — ^I  believe,  when  the 
Hospital  ^rew  to  this  magnitude,  that  the  ne- 
cessity or  getting  a  charter  was  felt ;  and  it 
was  a  work  of  some  time,  and  great  trouble,  to 
get  it  through  the  several  offices. 

What  part  of  the  establishment  of  Green- 
wich Hosoital  do  you  mean,  that  has  not  been 


believe  additional  captsuns  and  UcHtenants, 
and  men.  and  many  officers  to  attend  those 
men.  All  the  business  pf  the  management  of 
the  Derwentwater  estate  is  a  very  modem 
story,  and  was  never  settied,  in  the  manner  it 
is  now,  till  1749.     [Mr.  Eden  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Sibtkorpe,  (late  Solicitor  to  the  Hospital) 

called  in. 

Please  to  ave  an  account  to  the  Committee 
of  what  you  know  relative  to  the  new  charter 
of  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — ^About  the  beginning 
of  the  vear  1772  of  7S,  I  am  not  ouite  positive 
as  to  the  time  this  circumstance  happened  in 
ihe  Hospital,  I  was  at  that  time,  with  Mr. 
Everest,  joint  solicitor  of  the  UosptUtlf  lieute- 


nant^ovemor  Boys,  when  I  was  attending  at 
the  b^d,  I  believe  it  was  March  1778,  lieute- 
nant-governor Boys  was  in  the  chair,  at  the 
head  of  tiie  board,  the  solicitor  was  ordered  13 
be  called  in,  and  I  went  in. 

What  board?— The  board  of  directors  of 
Greenwich  Hospital,  at  the  Hospital.  The 
lieutenant  governor  said  to  me,  Mr.  £llis» 
Sir,  is  gone  away  with  the  Hospital's  money. 
I  said  I  had  heard  so.  Then  Sir,  said  he,  you 
must  contrive  to  get  it.  I  said .  I  thought  that 
was  impossible,  as  the  Hospital  was  then  cir* 
cumstanced :  I  asked  Mr.  Boys  how  it  was  to 
be  done.  Sir,  said  he,  it  must  be  done.  I 
answered,  that  might  be  very  well  in  his  idea^ 
but  it  was  not  possible,  in  mv  opinion ;'  for 
that  there  seemed  to  be  no  mode  of  setting  at 
this  money,  but  by  filing  a  bill  or  imonnaUon, 
in  the  name  of  the  attorney  general,  at  the  ref- 
lation of  the  governor  of  the  liospitol,  against 
Mr.  Ellis  for  an  account,  and  that  before  that 
business  could  bejgot  to  perfection,  Mr.  lEllls 
would  be  gone.  There  dia  not  appear  to  me  to 
be  any  shorter  way,  as  no  person  wnatever  could 
possibly  swear  that  Mr.  Ellis  was  indebted  to 
nim,  or  to  a  rope  of  sand,  for  so  I  caUed  the 
Hospital  at  that  time,  it  not  beinjg  incorporated. 
I  was  then  directed,  as  solicitor,  with  Mr. 
Everest,  to  tsdce  the  opinion  of  Mr.  Eden,  and 
I  believe  too  of  the  attom^-general,  as  to 
the  proper  mode  of  proceedmg  against  Ellis. 
Some  of  the  directors  seemed  to  be  struck  with 
what  I  said,  and  thought  it  might  beneces- 
sary  to  have  fiirther  powers  vested  ilfSem, 
and  that  there  shoula  be  a  charter,  and  that 
gave  rise  to  this  charter  in  a  very  sfiort  tim^ 
ailer,  perliaps  even  at  the  same  board ;  Iml, 
in  a  very  short  time  €Ufter,  the  board  of  direc- 
tors came  to  a  resolution  that  a  charter  should 
be  applied  for  in  the  common  course  of  busi* 
ness.  When  the  minutes  were  brought  to  tht 
solicitor,  the  business  was  set  about;  Mr. 
Everest  drew  the  first  draught  and  brought  k 
to  me,  he  having,  I  believe,  under  my  oiiec- 
tions,  applied  for  and  ^ot  tiie  charter  for  ioi- 
corporating  the  Foundlmg  Hospital,  and  took 
that,  in  some  degree,  as  a  mode  for  the  words; 
of  course,  after  he  had  made  his  first  ina^t, 
ne  brought  that  draught  to  me,  in  whidi  I 
made  several  alterations,  and  after  I  had  made 


settled  till  within  this  two  or  three  years?— 1 1  those  alterations,  that dnuight  was  copied  and 

Isud  before  Mr.  Eden:  Mr.  Eden,  I  think,  I 
am  pretty  sure  too.  made  some  small  altera*- 
tioiis  in  the  draugnt  so  laid  before  him,  and 
also  drew  out  a  paper  in  which  he  prescribed 
other  alterations,  and,  in  pursuance  of  which 
direction  firom  tdi.  Eden,  I  did,  in  thatdraught, 
make  more  alterations  than  I  had  in  the 
former  draught,  my  lords.  The  matters  being 
in  that  state,  Mr.  Eden  returned  the  draught, 
and  said,  tluit  he  though  it  was  a  proper 
dnuttht ;  and  then,!  take  it,  that  the  draii^ght 
itseltwas  copied  and  laid  before  the  then  at- 
torney-general, another  oopv  was  made  for 
the  solicitor  general,  and  a  third  copy  for  Mr. 
Eden,  with  mtent  that  they  shoula  meet  to- 
gett^r  in  consultation,  and  s^Ule  the  chactec 


M]      rap&Bthig  ^  ikayai  tfa^pUal  at  Greemoidi*        A.  D.  ms* 


[102 


n  it  ODgbt  to  b6.    After  the  Misiness  was 
got  into  tbat  stage,  there  was  a  meeting  be- 
tween the  the&  attorney  and  solicitor  general, 
and  Mr.  Eden,,  at  which  I  was  present.    I 
Ifamk,  and  am  pretty  certain  too,  though  I 
iave  not  had  any  connection  with  the  Hospi* 
tdfor  about  three  years  past,  therefore  if  I 
or  it  may  be  easily  allowed  me,  ^at  there 
wen  some  alterations  made  in  the   copy, 
ubich  Mr,   Wedderbum  had  as  his  copy; 
tboe  «asadiTecti<Hi  also  at  the  bottom  of  one 
of  these  oc^ies^  signed  by  the  then  attorney 
fBoeral,  and  Mr.  Wedderbum,  directing  the 
MHity  clause  to-be  added  to  it;    that  clause 
wu  also  drawn,  and  they  approved  it.    In  the 
CQuraeof  this  business  me  charter,  or  draught 
af  the  charter  at  least,  was  laid  before  uie 
bond  of  directors,  I  think  more  than  once :  it 
nsBy  fewards  the  close  of  the  business,  laid 
hem  the  general  court,  and  it  was  at  that 
time^and  I  oelieve  the  only  time,  that  I  was 
ever  called  into  the  general  court  to  be  asked  a 
<|iie8lioii  respecting  that  charter.    I  had  ex- 
PfesMdm^  doubts  what  the  stile  of  the  Hos- 
fNtal  should  be  ;  I  thought  the  word  commis- 
asner  was  not  a  proper  one,  because  it  was  a 
charter,  aad  not  a  commission :  I  thought  the 
•wd  governor  not  a  very  proper  one,  there 
Kane  another  governor,  or  a  particular  officer 
ttUea  a  pernor :   I  thought  the  word  guar- 
fiao;  which  I  believe  is  part  of  the  title  of 
FoQEpdhn^    Hospital,    an   improper    thing. 
Having  signifiedT  these  doubts,  I  wa»  called 
inta  a  geoeral  co>urt  of  admiralty,  at  the  head 
afwfaidi  board  lord  Sandwich  was,  and  bavins 
been  asked,  I  am  not  sure  by  whom,  I  think 
Mr.  Stephens,  what  I  had  to  say  respecting 
the  titled    I  made  nearly  the  same  obser- 
vatioDsthen  that  I  have  now.    Lord  Sand- 
wich said,  it  did  not  seem  to  signify  one  far- 
thing what  they  were-  called,  so  that  they 
we  incorporated  by  some  title,  upon  which  I 
withdrew.    These  are  the  general  outlines  of 
^vhafc  I  have  had  to  do,  m  respect  of  this 
tharter.    It  was  my  duty,  after  the  business 
U  been  gone  tlu-ough  at  tiie  Admiradty, 
feciag  older  and  having  had  more  experience 
tban  Mr.  Everest,  to  conduct  the  matter, 
ttoie  especially  as  I  lived  in  town  and  he  at 
pteenwich,  and  I  prosecuted  the  charter  till 
it  got  under  the  grrait  seal ;  and,  I  think,  the 
m  Saturday,  or  perhaps  the  second  in  De- 
**»iber,  1775,  I  carried  the  charter  to  the 
Hospital,  and  thought  that  I  had  done  the 
w*l  noble  act  that  I  should  ever  do,  if  I 
lived  an  hundred  years. 

Whether  you  recollect  which  were  the 
tkeiationsthat  weretnade  by  Yourself,  before 
rt  was  sent  to  the  attorney  and  solicitor-eene^ 
nJ,  and  Mr.  Eden,  and  which  were  made  by 
"Osc  gentlemen  afterwards? — I  cannot  say  as 
to  the  purport  of  them  now,  if  I  had  the  pa- 
V^  1  believe  I  could  point  them  out^ 

Are  thw  the  pi^>ers  which  are  before  the 
™>ic  ?— I  bdieve  they  are. 

(.Some  papers  shewn  the  witness.) 


This  is  the  drau^t  as  first  prepared  by  Mr. 
Everest,  and  brougnt  by  him  to  me ;  tne  al- 
terations made  are  in  my  hand-writing,  and 
are  numerous. 

I  don't  mean  to  give  you  the  trouble  of 
mentioning  every  ven>al  alteration  you  have 
made,  but  to  particular  points ;  the  first  is, 
the  omitting  tne  oower  to  the  general  court, 
and  giving  it  to  uie  Admiralty ;  the  second, 
the  power  of  removal  in  the  Admiralty  ;  the 
third,  the  appropriation  of  these  monies  for 
the  use  of  the  Hospital;  the  fourth  is,  the 
|)Ower  of  selling  ? — As  to  one  of  these  ques-' 
tions,  ^e  words  of  this  first  draught,  as  it 
originally  stood,  were  those.    '*  And  that  the 
said  governor,  and  deputy-governor,  and  the 
treasurer  now  and  fbr  the  time  being,  do  as- 
sist at  all  meetings,  the  said  commissioners 
and  governors,  or  the  directors,  of  the  said 
Hospital  hereafter  mentioned ;   and  we  do 
hereby  empower  our  said  commissioners,  or 
any  seven  or  more  of  them,  to  recommend  to 
our  commissioner  for  executing  the  office  of 
high  admiral  now  and  for  the  time  being,  our 
high  admiral,  for  the  time  being,  or  as  they 
may  be,  to  appoint,  firom  time  to  time,  ail 
officers  necessary  to  be  employed  in  and  for 
the  said  Hospital."    These  words  were  in  this 
draught,  when  Mr.  Everest  first  drew  it  and 
brought  it  to  me. 

Is  the  word  *  accordingly^  there  ? — ^No,  I 
altered  it  in  this  way.  "  And  we  do  hereby 
empower  the  members  of  this  corporation,  or 
any  seven  or  more  of  them,  so  assembled  in  a 
general  court,  to  recommend  to  our  high  ad- 
miral, for  the  tune  being,  or  our  commission- 
ers for  executing  the  office  of  high  admiral, 
now  and  for  the  time  being,  to  appoint,  fi-om 
time  to  time,  all  officers  necessary  to  be  em- 
ployed in  and  for  the  ssud  Hospital.'^  And  it 
appears  by  ^is  draught,  that  upon  reconsi- 
dering that  clause,  I  struck  it  wholly  out. 

Will  you  be  pleased  to  recollect,  whether  it 
was  of  your  own  motion,  or  fix)m  instructions 
firom  any  body  else,  that  you  did  strike  that 
clause  out  f — ft  was  either  from  my  own  mo- 
tion, or  conjunction  with  Mr.  Everest,  in  con- 
sidering the  matter  again,  and  not  from  any 
person  whatever,  except  himself  and  me,  that 
that  alteration  was  maae  so. 

What  might  be  your  reason  for  striking  of 
that  out? — I  cannot  possibly  say  what  my 
reason  was,  but  I  am  well  convinced  ii\  my 
mind,  that  at  the  time  I  did  it,  I  had  good 
reason  for  so  doing  ;  for  I  had  no  wish  what- 
ever to  do  any  thmg  but  prepare  such  a  charr 
ter  as  should  be  for  the  benefit  of  the  Hospi- 
tal, in  all  its  parls,  as  far  as  my  judgment 
should  extend. 

Do  you  recollect  any  abuse  that  had  been 
made,'  by  that  power  in  the  general  court, 
that  made  you  tnink  it  necessary  to  strike  it 
out  ? — I  have  endeavoured  a  great  deal  to  re- 
collect since  what  I  heard  passed  from  Mr. 
Eden,  that  there  was  any  such  power  prac- 
tised by  the  general  court,  but  during  the 
time  I  had  the  mahagement  of  the  business  of 


87] 


18  GEORGE  IIL  The  Case  ofCaplidn  Thomas  BttUUet 


[88 


•therwiae  than  those  I  have  stated  to  your 
lordships. 

When  you  carried  the  charter,  to  lay  it  be- 
fore the  Attorney  ^nd  Solicitor  General,  did 
you  then  apprize  those  two  ereat  lawyers  that 
you  hadaltmd  several  of  the  points  from  the 
original  commission  f — I  did  not,  to  the  best 
«f  my  recollection,  take  it  to  tiie  Attorney  and 
Solicitor  Greneral;  a  Mr.  Sibthorpe,  who  was 
at  that  time  concerned  jointly  witn  me,  had  a 
great  deal  of  the  transaction  of  that  business 
with  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  General. 

Do  you  undertake  to  sav  that  you  did  not 
carry  it  to  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  General  ? 
— I  do  not  recollect  tbit  perfectly. 

As  your  memory  is  so  extremely  short,  I 
imagine  it  is  some  days  since  you  have  been 
sununoned  to  attend  this  House,  have  you 
ever  had'the  curiosity,  knowing  that  your  me- 
mory is  so  extremely  defective,  as  it  appears 
here,  to  compare  the  charter  with  the  original 
commission  ?— I  have  looked  at  them. 

How  long  ago  ?->I  was  looking  at  them  this 
momine. 

How  long  is  it  ago  since  you  were  summon- 
ed to  attend  this  Houseful  believe  about 
ten,  or  positively  [jqu.  ])ossibly]  eleven  days. 

Did  vou  notthmk  it  material,  when  you 
bad  had  so  £T^t  a  hand,  and  absolutely  the 
drawing  of  this  charter,  not  to  refiresh  so  short 
a  memoi^  as  vours  is,  with  the  particular  in- 
vestigation of  that  clmrter,  and  comparing  it 
with  the  commission  before  this  momingr— 
No ;  I  have  looked  at  it,  but  not  as  comparii^ 
it,  nor  under  any  ideift  of  giving  evidence  of  it 
here. 

Did  you  ever  take  notice  to  any  body,  that 
you  had  made  these  alterations  in  this  chctf- 
ter  ?_Not  that  I  recollect 

At  no  time  did  you  ever  mention  it  to  any 
body  ?— Not  that  I  know  of. 

How  long  is  it  since  you  have  been  sum- 
moned to  attend  this  House?— I  think,  about 
ten  or  eleven  days. 

Have  you  had  any  conversation  during  that 
time,  respecting  the  business  of  Greenwich 
Hospital? — I  have  conversed  at  several  times 
with  various  officers  of  the  Hospital. 

With  whom  upon  this  business? — ^I  believe 
most  of  the  officers;  I  don't  know  any  one 
particularly  that  I  have  conversed  with 
about  it. 

Have  you  conversed  upon  the  subject  of 
the  charter  ?— Not  that  I  know  of. 

How  long  have  vou  been  the  solicitor  to 
Greenwich  Hospital? — ^I  was  concerned  with 
Mr.  Sibthorpe  immediately  afier  my  fathei's 
death,  which  was  ten  vears  agb. 

How  were  you  bred?  To  whatbuuness? — 
An  attorney. 

How  long  have  you  been  an  attorney  ?— I 
was  an  attorney  veiy  soon  afUr  my  father's 
death. 

.  We  don't  know  when  your  &ther  died  ? — 
I  believe,  I  explained  to  your  IcwdshipSy  it  was 
about  ten  years. 

How  long  have  you  been  appointed  solicitor 


to  the  Hospital  ?r'Almo8t  immediately  upoA 
my  father's  death,  which  is  about  tea  years 
ago. 

Were  you  an  apprentice  to  any  attorney 
before  vou  was  an  attorney? — ^I  was  clerk  tm 
my  father. 

How  long? — Not  quite  five  years,  but  I 
served  the  remainder  with  Mr.  Sibthorpe. 

I  only  wi^  to  ask  the  witness;  he  says 
that  this  new  charter  was  laid  before  the  At- 
torney and  SoUcitor  General,  I  desire  to  know^ 
whether  they  made  any  alterations  in  it,  after 
it  was  had  before  them?-*— I  believe,  that  the 
almost,  if  not  entirely,  the  only  alteratioo 
made  by  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  General^ 
was  the  clause  directm^  security  to  be  taken. 

Was  the  old  commission  laid  before  the 
Attorney  and  Solicitor  General  at  the  same 
time,  with  the  draught  of  the  new  charter  ? — 
I  don't  know. 

Who*  were  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  Ge- 
neral at  that  time  ? — The  present  Chancellor 
was  Attorney  General,  and  Mr.  Wedderbunie, 
Solicitor. 

So  you  don't  know  whether  the  Attorney  or 
Solicitor  .General  did  know  there  was  any  va- 
riation made  between  the  new  charier  and 
the  old  commission  ? — ^I  don't  know  that  any 
otherwise,  thui  was  necessaiy  to  constitute  a 
charter;  there  must  be  some  variation,  to  be 
sure. 

[The  witness  was  ordered  to  attend  oa 
Mondav  next,  and  brmg  those  materials  with 
him,  which  he  made  use  of  in  drawing  up  the 
charter.] 

Whether  you  singly  drew  up  the  charter,  or 
whether  Mr.  Sibthorpe  was  concerned  with 
you  in  drawing  it  up? — Mr.  Sibthorpe  and  I, 
to  the  best  of  my  recollection,  drew  it  toge* 
ther. 

He  was  concerned  with  you  in  drawing  of 
it  ? — ^Yes,  he  was. 

I  think  you  say,  Sibthorpe  and  you  together 
drew  it  ? — ^Yes,  I  think  so. 

Under  the  direction  of  Mr.  Eden  ? — ^Yes. 

You  recollect  that  was  the  case,  do  you  ?— 
Yes,  pcrfecUy. 

I  suppose,  after  you  had  drawn  this  diarter, 
you  delivered  it  to  Mr.  Eden  for  his  perusal? 
— ^It  was  laid  before  Mr.  Eden  for  his  p^nuaL 

When  }[ou  laid  it  before  him,  did  not  y«u  ol^ 
serve  to  him,  that  you  had  made  these  essen* 
tial  alterations  ?~ I  cannot  recollect,  whether 
I  or  Mr.  Sibthorpe  laid  it  before  him. 

Did  Mr.  Eden  make  any  alterations?— I 
cannot  recollect. 

Mr.  I(>bet9on  called  in  again. 

Mr.  Ibh.  In  the  hurrv  of  looldng  over  tha 
minutes  at  the  bar,  I  dud  omit  one  which  I 
should  have  taken  notice  of;  I  did  mention  to 
the  House,  that  there  had  been  an  application 
fi!om  the  general  court  to  parliament,  fot  an 
act  of  jparuament  to  mcorporate  tiie  Hospital, 
that  did  not  take  place;  and,  I  find,  upon 
looking  over  the  mimrtes,  sinos  I  withdtew 


'89]        re^eetuig  tie  Rm/al  Ho^dl  ai  Greenmkh.         A.  O.  1778. 


[96 


fiom  the  bar,  that  the  draught  of  the  charter 
had  been  settled  by  the  Attorney  and  Soticitor 
GcaneraJy  with  the  addition  of  the  security 
dnise,  was  laid  before  the  general  court,  and 
that  wu  on  the  10th  of  March,  1774.  The 
directors  in  their  Memorial  to  that  eeneral 
court  say,  thus:  that  having  laid  before  tiie 
Attom^  and  Solicitor  General,  a  draught  of  a 
cfairterofincoiporation  for  the  Hospital,  &c. 
tad  having  addedf  according  to  thev  recom- 
mendation, a  clause  for  the  treasurer  to  give 
lecurity,  the  resolution  of  the  general  court 
was,  that  they  approved  of  the  draught  of  the 
new  charter. 

Who  were  present  at  that  time?— Lord 
Sandwich,  Mr.  Buller,  lord  Palmerston,  lords 
«f  the  Admiralty,  &c.  &c.  in  the  whole  fifteen 
in  number. 

Was  the  charter  read  pan^raph  hy  para- 

Sph  at  the  general  court?— The  draugnt  of 
charter  appears  to  have  heen  read  through ; 
I  recollect  very  weD,  that  the  charter  itself 
WIS  not  read. 

You  say  it  appears,  that  the  draught  was 
leadthioi^i,  h  may  be  entered  as  read,  it 
may  appear  so  upon  the  books;  but  were  you 
ment  at  the  general  court?— I  don't  recol- 
lectthatitwas  not  read;  and  I  am  very  well 
convinced,  in  my  own  mind,  that  the  draught 
wssread,  but  that  the  charter  itself  was  not 
Rsd,  anv  more  than  sometimes  as  your  lord- 
thiM'  bifis  are  read,  just  the  title  of  it 

rlease  to  recollect  an(l  will  you  tsdce  upon 
you  to  say  tlmt  it  was  read?— I  think  I  can 
venture  to  sav  ity  but  I  will  not  say  it  posi- 
tively, but  I  nave  no  reason  to  think  that  it 
was  not  read. 

Do  you  take  upon  you  to  say  positively  that 
it  was  or  was  not?— I  believe  it  was  read,  I 
know  notlung  to  the  contnur. 

Whether  it  was  not  one  of  the  points  of  bu- 
■ness^  upon  which  they  met  to  consider  of 
this  draught? — ^It  was  a  part  of  the  business 
ff  the  day^  it  came  in  amone  other  business. 

Was  this  draught  of  the  charter,  to  the  best 
of  your  knowledge,  read  to  the  general  court  ? 
—To  the  best  m  my  knowledge  and  belief, 
certainly  it  was  read. 

Were  any  of  these  alterations  between  the 
•onunission  and  charter,  pointed  out  to  the 
Ccneml  court  at  t||at  time?— No,  tiiere  was 
lotiuQg  pointed  out  in  it,  that  I  recollect. 

Was  the  commission  produced  at  that  court, 
and  read? — ^No,  it  was  not,  nor  any  compari- 
son niade  between  them. 

Did  no  member  there  take  notice  of  any  al- 
teration between  one  and  the  otiier?— Not 
that  I  recollect;  and  I  cannot  see  how  they 
could,  unless  they  had  had  them  both  before 
them? 

How  soon  did  you  observe,  or  were  you  ac- 
quainted with  the  alterations  in  the  charter? 
—I  never  knew  any  thing  of  the  alterations 
B^aelf  m  the  charter;  I  never  compared  it 
^"^  the  oommisaion;  I  concluded  it  was 
poperly  settled,  having  gone  through  such 
haads;  till  Mr,  Baillie  poiatad  thm  out  in 


his  book,  no  other  alteration  than' the  security 
clause,  that  wras  an  addition  as  it  stands  upon 
the  books,  as  recommended  to  be  inserted. 

[Mr.  Ibbetson  withdrew,  and  the  House  ad- 
journed to  Monday.] 

Mr.  JEkferttty  the  Solicitor,  called  in. 

Have  you-  brou^t  those  papers  that  were 
ordered  ? — ^I  have.    [Produces  some  Papers.] 

What  are  these  papers  ? — The  .  several 
draughts  and  copies  of  charters,  that  I  have 
been  able  to  collect  since  last  Friday. 

That  you  have  been  able  to  collect? — ^Yes. 

When  were  those  draughts  and  papers  made 
out? — The  first  was  drawn  by  myself;  was 
corr|pted,  as  I  find  afterwards,  by  Mr.  Sib- 
thorpe,  who  was  then  joint  solicitor  of  the 
Hospital  with  me ;  a  copy  was  made  fitHoa 
that,  and  laid  before  Mr.  Eden,  and  corrected 
by  him  after  that;  three  comes  were  made^. 
one  for  the  Attorney  GeneraL  one  for  the  So- 
licitor General,  and  another  for  Mr.  Eden. 

Are  those  all  the  papers  that  you  have  pro- 
duced?— I  was  going  on,  if  the  Committee 
will  nve  me  leave :  the  Attorney  auod  Soli- 
citor General  advised,  by  an  opinion  in  vrriting 
at  the  end  of  one  of  them,  that  a  clause  should 
be  added  for  the  treasurer  to  give  security: 
this  was  laid  before  the  board  ofoirectors,  and 
thev  ordered  the  clause  to  be  drawn;  accord- 
ingly a  copy  was  then  made  for  the  board, 
with  the  clause  inserted;  I  find,  by  the  mi- 
nutes  of  the  board,  that  it  was  then  laid  be- 
fore the  board,  and  they  made  alterations  in 
it ;  from  thence  another  copy  was  made  for 
the  general  court,  and  by  them  finally  ap- 
proved. 

Are  these  all  the  papers?— I  have  not  them 
all. 

Are  those  that  you  have  been  describme  all 
the  papers  you  have  brought  with  you? — ^I 
will  r^  their  tities. 

Are  the^.  or  are  they  not,  all  you  have 
brought  with  you  ? — ^I  have  not  brought  all  I 
have  been  describing, because  I  coulonot find 
them  all;  what  I  tuive  brought  is  Ihefint 
draught  which  I  drew  myself,  and  which  was 
corrected  by  Mr.  Sibthorpe ;  that  was  afiber- 
wards  corrected  by  Mr.  Eden,  and  then  the 
third  draught  was  corrected  by  the  Attorney 
and  Solicitor  General,  and  Mr.  Eden. 

Have  you  any  papers  but  what  you  have 
produced?— None,  but  what  I  have  produced. 

Have  you  searched  into  the  record-room, 
and  made  any  enquiry  concerning  these  old 
papers  and  draughts  you  spoke  of  the  other 
day?— I  have  been  into  the  record-room  and 
searched  there ;  I  found  that  the  papers  were 
not  there,  but  in  my  possession,  and  I  have 
now  delivered  them  to  your  lordships. 

Were  there  any  other  alterations  ever  made 
in  the  drati^ht  of  the  charter,  but  those  you 
have  mentioned  ? — ^No. 

Did  you  ever  converse  with  anv  body  else, 
but  those  that  you  have  named,  upon  th*^ 
drawinjg  of  the  charter,  to  [au.  with]  my  lovi 
Sandwich,  or  any  of  the  loroa  of  the  Adnu* 
ral^?^N9.. 


91] 


18  GEORGE  III. 


Tie 


Nor  receive  any  meeiage  upon  the  subject 
faun  any  body  ?— Nqne. 

Was  Mr.  Ibbetson  conceroed  in  diawii^  up 
that  charter  >---Not  by  any  means. 

What  was  the  expence  of  the  charter? — ^I 
have  not  tak^oi  that  out. 

Do  you  know  how  much  you  have  received 

Xn  that  account  ?-— Upon  account  of  the 
rter? 

Upon  account  of  the  expence  of  passing  it? 
— ^I  am  not  prepared  at  present  to  answer  that 
question,  but  I  believe  it  was  upwards  of  a 
Uiousand  pounds :  if  the  House  have  any  Wish 
to  go  into  thaty  I  wiU,  upon  another  day,  pro* 
duce  idl  the  papers  I  can  respecting  thaW 

When  did  you  propose  to  return  those  pa- 
pers that  belongea  U>  the  record-room  ?— I  iiad 
not  fixed  any  tune  in  my  own  mind  about  it; 
I  reatty  thou^t  they  were  returned;  it  haa 
been  a  long  tune  since  I  have  seen  any  thing 
of  them. 

Have  you  compared  any  of  those  old  papers 
•ince  vou  were  nere  on  Friday  with  the  pre- 
sent chaiter,  to  see  whether  USe  alterations  in 
this  new  chsurter  are  contained  in  these  old 
papers  ?'^Some  of  them  are  in  the  old  drau^t 
of  a  charter  in  George  the  find's  time,  which 
I  have  delivered  to  your  lordships. 

Is  that  part  contained  in  that  old  p«per, 
which  gives  authority  to  the  lords  of  the  Ad- 
miralty to  sell  the  Hospital  laud?— I  don't 
know. 

That  charter  never  passed,  did  it  ?— No. 
[Mr.  Everest  withdrew.] 

The  Auditor,  Mr.  Erf«n,*  called  in. 

Pkase  to  sive  the  Committee  an  account 
of  what  you  Know  relative  to  the  passing  the 
new  chaurter  of  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — ^In  the 
beginntng  of  the  year  1779.  Mr.  Ellis,  the 
steward  of  liie  Hospital,  fiuka  for  a  consider- 
able sum  of  money,  I  beUeve  about  3,500/. ; 
I  was  at  that  time  at  tlie  bar,  and  acted  as 
ooimMl  for  the  Hospital;  it  was  my  duty  to 
settle  Uie  form  of  xeeovering  this  money;  I 
ibund.  on  lookii^  into  the  matter,  that  it  was 
venr  difficult  to  <&reet  a  mode  of  prosecutian ; 
wnil  also  Ibond,  that  if  any  such  mode  could 
be  canied  on,  there  were  no  means  of  recover- 
ing, in  case  Mr.  Ellis's  ciroumstaiices  should 
be  R>uud  insolvent ;  for  tiiere  had  been  no 
ascivity  gt«en  bv  him,  or  indeed  anv  other 
person^  entrusted  vnth  the  money  of  the  Hos- 
pital: it  was  my  duty  to  rej^sent  this  to  the 
mid  of  directors:  andlpomtedoutto  them, 
tiiat  they  were  cbrected  under  the  commis- 
aioDy  under  which  we  acted,  to  have  a  char- 
ter. I  knew  that  under  that  charter  it  would 
be  easy  to  8;uard  wunst  any  such  iiiconve- 
aienoe  in  mture.  The  board  upon  this  di- 
tectedthait  the  matter  should  be  considei«d,  I 
believe,  by  myself,  and  the  then  Attorney  and 
Mkitor  Goieral.  It  was  our  first  wish  of 
ally  I  believe,  to  have  had  this  charter  pasaed 
in  parliament.    It  was  moved  in  parliament, 

*  Now  [a.  d.  1914.]  Lord  AncklMMl. 


Cm  qfCapiain  Thmoi  BmlUei         [98 

but  the  answer  was,  you  had  better  go  to  the 
usual  fonn  for  it  throu§di  the  crown  offloets; ' 
we  don't  wish  it  agitated  here.  Thebusmess 
of  the  charter  then  went  on,  and  several  meet- 
ings were  bad  about  it;  I  believe  about  tfaas 
time,  till  in  the  m<mth  of  March,  1779,  that  I 
then  ^ve  mstructions  to  the  solicitors  of  ^ 
HospKal.  Mr.  Sibthorpe  and  Mr.  Eveicst; 
Mr.  Sibthorpe,  very  enunent  in  hie  jnrofesskm 
there,  and  a  man  we  had  Mk  oonndencein; 
Mr.  Everest  was  then  a  very  youns  man;  I 
directed  them  to  prepare  a  diraui^  for  us  to 
look  at  They  prepared  a  draught  upon  the 
ground  of  the  Foundling  Hospital's  charter 
and  the  commission,  takmg  out  as  much  of 
the  commission  as  they  thoueht  applied  §ar 
the  benefit  of  the  Hospital ;  wnen  it  came  to 
be  put  into  the  charter,  I  did  not  know  who 
prepaxedit,but  I  now  understand  Mr.  Everest 
did;  Mr.  Sibthorpe  corrected  it,  and broi^t 
It  so  corrected  to  me.  This  don't  eannr  ne.  I 
believe,  later  down  than  the  month  of  lAurch ; 
I  made  some  corrections,  which  I  understand 
are  now  before  the  House,  and  which  m^  be 
seen;  in  making  those  oorrecUens,  I  shotdd 
not  have  thoueht  it  necessary  to  have  retabied 
a  single  syllable  of  the  commisskm,  if  I  could 
have  suggested  better  words;  I  befieve,  bows- 
ever,  it  so  haopened,  that  in  general  the  ex«^ 
pressionsof  the  old  commission  are  retained^ 
as  far  as  they  were  proper  to  be  retamed. 
There  were  several  ottier  things  occurred  in 
settling  that  charter,  which  seined  material 
to  be  attended  to  f<Mr  the  benefit  of  the  Hoe. 
pital.  Hitherto  we  had  a  consideniUe  eslel 
blishment  for  the  benefit  of  the  boys  who 
were  sons  of  seamen.  That  estaUisfanieat 
had  not  been  regularly  put  under  the  esta- 
blishment of  the  Rospital ;  it  arose  fioin,  and 
was  supported  by,  some  contingent  aunia. 
The  boys  eo  off  in  three  years  toktaUy  com- 
pleted m  their  education.  This  was  grows 
so  considerable  an  establishment,  tSat  ¥t 
seemed  material  to  subject  that  to  a  eeneml 
court,  and  the  general  form  that  gees  tmongh 
the  rest  of  the  regular  bumness  tlwt  is  inserted 
in  the  charter,  not  in  the  former  coramisuon  ; 
so  all  the  security  clauses  of  theee  Uiat  have 
the  Hospital  money  pass  throu|^  theii  hands^ 
were  submitted  for  the  opinion  of  Iht  Att8». 
ney  and  Sohcitor  General,  and  th^  gave 
their  opinion  that  it  was  necessary  to  insect 
such  a  clause :  that  is  a  considerable  benefit 
to  the  Hospitid,  as  at  all  times  there  is  at  leaKt 
60,000/.  or  60,000/.  in  cirodation^  fot  whick 
the  Hospital  before  had  no  secunjhr^  and  for 
which  it  has  now  a  full  security.  'Uiere  were 
some  provisions  put  into  the  charter  about 
the  ^wer  of  altering  and  disposing  of  the 
Hospital's  lands,  which  I  hear  has  drvwn 
some  attrition.  As  far  as  I  can  lecoUeCt  of 
the  matter,  I  apprehend  that  no  such  {lower  of 
alienii^  or  di^osing  of  any  thing  is  liven  bgr 
these  words :  I  conceive  thea  to  be  »cie 
words  of  fonn,  so  fiur  as  relates  to  any  pOBa»* 
bility  of  impairing  the  proper^  of  the  HoapW. 
tal :  I  conceive  that  evory  purchaeer  talRO^ 


fJJ        festpeeling  ike  Royal  Hospitai  at  Greentokh.  A.  D.  I77d. 


[M 


micttothattiust,  and  at  his  own  peril;  so 

fum  tlKMe  wofds  five  a  power  of  purchasmg, 

I  don't  knowy  I  rather  apprehend  tney  do  not ; 

Ar  ia  cises  subsequent,  I  understand  it  has 

ben  ibmd  necessaiy  to  have  special  licences 

fivathe  cfQwn  to  nmke  those  purchases ;  and 

ii  MffiA  to  exchaogesy  it  happened  two  years 

i^  when  there  was  an  excnange,  and  then 

it  VIS  (bund  neoessaiy  to  pass  an  act  for  that 

fopfOBty  which  act  actually  passed. 

I  have  not  looked  into  the  thinsy  because 
tha  House  did  not  give  me  notice  Sat  I  was 
Mke summoned  here ;  I  heard  it  by  accident; 
I  hivt  not  had  much  time  to  look  into  it ; 
bn^  I  believe,  that  upon  looking  into  the  acts^ 
which  vest  tne  Derwentwater  estates  in  the 
Hospital,  it  will  be  found,  that  no  charter  of 
tike  Idn^s  alone  can  turn  and  affect  that,  ex- 
duave  of  the  nature  of  the  trust,  by  which 
ittT  purchaser  might  be  subject  to  the  trust ; 
1 00  not  at  this  moment  recollect  any  other 
iviatioBs  in  the  charter.  There  is  an  omis- 
m,  wluch  has  been  taken  notice  of:  the  ge- 
lanl  courts  recommending  the  persons  proper 
to  be  admitted;  the  words  that  were  m  the 
«ld  commission  were,  I  believe,  pretty  nearly 
Aese,  that  the  commissioners,  meaning  the 
^neiai  court,  shall  recommend  to  the  board 
sf  Admiiai^,  to  appoint  officers  necessary  for 
the  Hospital.  Now  I  can  only  suppose  what 
I  did  then  think ;  by  what  I  think  now  upon 
i^  it  can  only  faAve  one  of  two  meanings, 
Mher  that  I  must  have  thought  at  that  time, 
Ihstthe  coramiseioners  were  meant  to  recom- 
Mid  the  persons,  so  that  they  must  be  ap- 
pointed; in  which  case  I  diould  have  had  no 
nesitation  of  striking  it  out,  because  I  am 
deniy  (^opinion,  it  is  a  much  better  trust  to 
hi  in  the  bands  of  the  board  of  Admirahy, 
who  must  know  the  merits  of  seamen  who 
hive  served,  than  in  the  hands  of  persons 
veiT  ntopectaUe  in  life,  but  not  seamen.  I 
iDderstand  thia  is  an  old  clause,  from  the  first 
ustitution  of  tlie  Hospital ;  and  I  conceive 
that  the  words  meant,  that  the  commissioners 
ahoiild  recommend  all  officers  necessary  to  be 
adpointed ;  so  many  captains,  so  many  lieu- 
tepants^and  so  on ;  but  that  the  board  of  Ad- 
■iralty  are  to  name  the  particular  captains 
Md  fieolenants.  There  is  a  clause  too,  giving 
the  Admiralty  power  to  displace.  Now,  as 
6r  as  that  addition  eoes,  I  believe,  it  restrains 
the  power  of  the  Aamiralty:  the  Admiralty 
>Ka  to  appoint,  and  do  now,  indeed,  till  fur- 
ther order:  what  I  must  have  Hiought  was 
Ibis^thal  this  is  rather  a  hard  tenure  upon  an 
old  officer  in  the  Hospital,  that  he  should 
hold  it  during  the  win  of  the  board  of  Admi- 
^^,  whatever  his  behaviour  was ;  therefore, 
Imssrted,  I  think,  they  should  have  powerto 
displace  for  nusbehaviour.  There  were  some 
m9  words,  that  the  reveAue  of  the  Hospital 
mdd  be  applied  to  the  purposes  of  the  cha* 
ntr,  and  no  other  purposes  whatever ;  I  don't 
Rcoflect  (it  wdl  appear)  whether  I  scratched 
J*^e  words;  if  I  did,  I  am  not  ashamed  of 
Py  mate  th^  are  wpids  that  mean  nothing; 


and,  at  this  instant,  if  applied  to  any  purposes^ 
except  the  purposes  of  the  cbaritv,  they  are 
punishable.  I  don't  know  whether  I  hav« 
answered  the  noble  lord's  question,  but  I 
don*t  recollect  any  thing  more  at.preseot 

Whether  the  conunittee  is  to  understand 
from  what  you  have  said,  that  these  seven] 
alterations  in  the  charter  were  made  by  yeuf^ 
self? — ^Upon  my  word  t^t  is  a  very  hani 
question  to  answer;  I  have  not  seen  the 
paper,  except  casting  my  eyes  upon  them  ii| 
the  bundle ;  I  have  not  seen  them  to  examine 
them,  therefore  I  cannot  tell ;  at  the  distance 
of  seven  y  ears^  it  is  impossible  for  me  to  know* 
If  any  body  will  take  the  trouble  to  examine 
them,  my  hand-writing  is  very  easy  to  be 
seen,  whether  I  alteredthem or  no;  1  appre* 
hend  I  am  responable  for  every  word  that  is 
in  this  charter. 

I  don't  mean  whether  you  are  answerable 
for  it  or  not;  but  I  want  to  know  the  fact, 
whether  you  made  the  alterations  pr  not :  if 
you  wish  to  satisfy  yourself  bv  lof4dng  mto 
the  draught  that  is  laid  before  the  House,  that 
may  easDy  be  handed  up  to  you,  to  refresh 
your  memory } — If  you  will  please  to  let  me 
see  the  draught,  I  will  tell  your  lordships. 

(The  draught  is  handed  to  Mr.  Eden.) 

Mr.  Eden.  I  certainly  did  not*>dter  ererj 
thins,  because  I  see  in  the  Attorney  General's 
brief,  there  are  some  passages  that  are  altered. 

Please  to  look  at  the  altemtions,  one  by  one, 
and  acquaint  the  committee  of  what  yon  have 
altered) — In  my  brie^  there  does  not  happeii 
to  be  one  aheration,  which  I  am  surprbea  at : 
but,  I  believe,  the  reason  was,  I  had  quit^ 
the  bar  before  it  was  brought  lo  me. 

Then,  firom  thence,  are  we  to  tflrierstand, 
that  none  of  the  alterations  were  nukde  by 
you? — ^I  am  afVaid  to  say  that,  beeauQe  the 
solicitor's  having  free  access  to  me,  many 
things  that  may  appear  to  be  altered,  might 
be  by  their  asking,  and  my  suggesting  altera- 
tions :  I  should  mention,  that  Uiere  appears 
to  be  a  great  delay  in  tnis  biisiness;  it  was 
slatad  in  the  beginning  of  the  year  17712,  and 
was  not  completed  tiH  the  end  of  the  year 
1775 ;  in  the  course  of  thattime  it  was  revised 
very  repeatedly  by  different  persons;  and 
was,  I  believe,  a  lone  time  before  the  Attorney 
and  Solicitor  Generu ;  th^  had  too.  much  bu» 
siness  to  give  it  out  of  their  hands^  but  at  last 
it  did  come,  though  I  have  sent  for  their  re- 
port upon  it ;  it  was  broughtito  me  from  th^ 
secretary  of  slate's  office,  and  I  have  it  here| 
if  the  House  wish  to  see  it. 

(It  is  handed  up  to  the  table.) 

There  were  some  other  persons  consulted 
in  this  charter.  I  believe;  who  were  these 
persons?  I  understood  you  to  say,  it  was  laid 
More  the  Attorney  and  ^icitor  G^eneral, 
and  soine  other  persons?— I  am  misunder- 
stood, I  am  afraid ;  I  don't  recollect  any  othet  ^ 
persons,  except  Mr.  Sibthorpe,  the  solicitor  of' 
the  Hospital;  I  did  not  mean  te  say  m^. 


Ill] 


IS  GEORGE  IIL         The  Case  of  CapkAn  Tkmiu  BaiiUe,         [1  IS 


Whom  did  Mr.  Tindall  succeed  ? — Mr.  Po- 
codc,  who  had  been  at  sea. 

Whom  did  Mr  Pocock  succeed? — Mr. 
Beny,  who  succeeded  Mr.  Stubbs. 

Had  Mr.  Stubbs  been  at  sea  P^Never,  I  be- 
lieve ;  his  son  is  here,  who  can  speak  to  that. 

Mr.  Stubbs  was  the  fi^t  chapuun  that  was 
ever  appointed? — ^Yes^  the  first  that  appears 
by  the  Hospital  books. 

Who  is  the  next  upon  the  list?— The  au- 
ditors. 

Who  is  the  present  auditor  ? — ^Mr.  Eden. 

Was  he  ever  at  sea? — Not  that  I  ever 
heard. 

Whom  did  Mr.  Eden  succeed  ? — Mr.  Thur- 
low. 

Was  he  ever  at  sea? — ^Not  that  I  ever 
heard^ 

Whom  did  he  succeed  ? — ^Mr.  Hussey. 

Had  he  ever  been  at  sea  ? — ^Not  that  I  ever 
heard. 

Whom  did  he  succeed  ? — Mr.  Jarvis. 

Was  he  ever  at  sea  ? — ^Never  a  one  of  them 
M I  ever  heard. 

What  is  the  business  of  the  auditor  ? — ^After 
the  accounts  pass  through  the  clerk  of  the 
eheque'is  inspection,  they  are  delivered  to  the 
board  of  directors,  from  whence  they  are  de- 
livered over  to  the  auditor,  and  by  him  .au- 
dited ;  and  all  such  accounts  as  are  readv  are 
dedared  twice  a  year  before  the  chancellor  of 
the  exchequer. 

Are  you  acquainted  witfithe  nature  of  au- 
diting them  ? — Yes,  I  have  seen  many  of  them 
audited. 

Is  there  any  thing  in  passing  of  these  ac- 
counts^ that  could  not  be  done  by  a  purser  ? — 
Hiere  is  no  great  difficulty  in  it. 

Do  you  thmk  that  there  is  any  thing  in  that, 
•  that  an  ingenious  clever  man,  who  has  been  a 

Surser  to  a  man  of  war,  might  not  be  able  to 
o  ? — ^No,  I  think  not. 

Who  ia  next  upon  the  list  ? — ^The  governor's 
clerk. 

What  is  his  name  ? — The  present  governor's 
clerk  is  not  the  person  set  down  here ;  he  has 
not  lodged  in  the  Hospital ;  at  present,  the 
only  person  here  is  William  Pagett,  who  was 
•ecretaiy  to  sir  George  Rodney,  m  the  West- 
Indies. 

Has  the  present  governor's  clerk  been  at 
tea  ? — I  believe  not. 

What  is  his  name  ? — ^Pansfbrd. 

He  is  clerk  of  the  council  ? — That  is  by  vir- 
tue of  his  being  the  governor's  secretary. 

You  think  he  has  not  been  at  sea  ? — ^No,  I 
have  heard  he  has  been  an  officer  of  horse. 

What  has  been  his  particular  duty? — ^I 
apprehend  the  particular  duty  of  the  secretary 
to  the  governor,  is  to  cany  all  correspondence 
that  he  may  have  with  the  Admiralt)r,  and  to 
attend  at  the  councils,  of  the  Hospital,  and 
that  has  been  for  many  years  seldom  or  ever 
acted  by  the  principal,  it  always  has  been  by 
deputation. 

Then  Mr.  Pansford  has  aot  attended  at  the 
S^Uidl  l»^l  believe  not, 


Did  you  ever  see  him  there  ? — ^Never. 

And  how  nuiny  years  have  you  been  in  the 
Hospital  attending  the  council  ? — I  don't  at- 
tend the  council. 

How  many  years  have  you  been  in  the 
Hospital  ? — From  my  childhood. 

Did  you  ever  s^e  him  in  the  Hospital  ? — 
Yes,  at  sir  Charles  Hardy's  house,  and  have 
dined  with  him  there,  but  have  not  seen  him 
upon  duty. 

What  IS  your  rule  in  i[^rd  to  checking 
people  that  are  absent  ? — Tne  men  are  mus- 
tered every  day,  and  checked  all  those  out  of 
their  provisions  tiiat  are  not  present. 

By  whom  Is  the  governor's  clerk  appointed? 
— ^By  the  governor. 

Does  there  appear  to  you  to  be  any  thing  in 
the  duty  of  clerk  of  the  council,  that  could  not 
be  done  by  a  person  having  been  at  sea  ? — The 
duty  is  very  easy ;  it  is  nothing  more  than  the 
little  dirty  complaints  of  the  men  getting 
drunk,  and  all  that  is  his  principal  busmess. 

Who  is  the  next  ? — The  secretary's  clerk. 

Who  is  he  ? — The  present  one  is  *Mr.  Francis 
Cook. 

Is  he  a  landman,  or  has  he  been  at  sea  ?  or 
is  he  in  the  Hospitstl  ? — ^A  landman,  and  in  the 
Hospital. 

Whom  did  he  succeed? — ^Mr.  Eichanl 
Home. 

What  was  he  ?  and  was  he  lodged  in  the 
Hospital  ? — Mr.  Home  had  never  been  at  sea^ 
so  far  as  Z  could  leam,  nor  lodged  in  the  Hos- 
pital. 

Had  you  any  other  before  him  that  had 
been  at  sea  ? — ^Not  that  I  could  ever  leam. 

Who  are  the  next  ? — ^The  dispensers,  there 
have  been  only  two  of  them,  the  present  one 
has  never  been  at  sea.  :, 

Wliat  is  his  name  ? — John  Pocock. 

What  is  his  employment? — ^Heisthe  di»- 
penser  of  medicines,  the  immediate  instrument 
under  the  physician,  who  prepares  and  com- 
pdunds  all  the  medicines. 

Is  there  any  thing  in  his  business,  that 
might  not  be  done  by  a  surgeon  in  the  navy  } 
— f  apprehend  not. 

Who  is  the  next  person? — The  brewers, 
Stephen  Coleman  Hickman  is  the  present 

Was  he  ever  at  sea? — No,  nor  any  of  his 
predecessors.  , 

What  is  Mr.  Hickman  ? — So  far  as  I  know 
of  him,  he  was  an  officer  in  the  army ;  he  had 
a  fortune  of  his  own ;  he  quitted  the  army, 
and  married  a  young  lady  at  Greenwich;  he 
went  into  the  brewing  busmess ;  he  continued 
that  six  or  seven  years,  and  failed  twice. 

And  then  he  was  appointed  brewer  to 
Greenwich  Hospital? — ^After  some  time. 

As  far  as  you  know  of  that  business,  do  vo« 
think  that  a  man-  that  had  been  at  sea,  and  had 
not  failed,  might  not  have  been  as  good  a 
brewer  as  Mr.  Hickman? — ^I  cannot  be  a  jud^ 
of  that. 

Do  you  know  any  thing  to  the  contraiy  ?— - 
No. 

I8beagooclbr6wer?-^W9  have  sever  ba^ 


UJ]      mpec&tg  ike  Rcfioi  Ho^fital  at  Greewmeh.        A.  D.  1778. 


[114 


oneoamplunt  as  I  know  of,  since  he  has  been 

btver  to  the  Hospital. 
How  long  has  he   been  brewer  to  the 

Hosfihal?— Be   was  appointed   in  August, 

1777. 
How  long  is  it  aso  that  he  failed  ? — ^A  year 

er  tiro  before  thai,  I  believe. 
Please  to  go  on  to  the  next } — ^The  next  are 

tbe  mations;    the  present  ones  are  Sarah 
Smith,  Mary  Krt,  and  Eleanor  Power. 

Are  either  of  them  the  wives  or  widows  of 
seunen?— Sarah  Smith  is  the  widow  of  a  late 
captain  in  the  Hospital;  the  other  two  are 
said  to  be  unmarried. 

Are  they  daughters  of  persons  that  have 
been  at  sea  ? — One  of  them,  I  heard,  was  sister 
to  a  lieutenant,  that  lord  Hawke  made  some 
tone  ago;  he  was  drowned,  and  left  his  &- 
milj  in  great  distress.  Lord  Hawke  put  her 
in  as  a  matron. 

Had  she  any  employment  in  lord  Hawke's 
family,  before  she  was  sent  to  Greenwich 
Hospitd  ? — Not  that  I  know  of. 

Had  any  of  those  matrons  any  employment 
in  my  lord  Sandwich's  family  ? — Lord  .Sand- 
vich  was  not  at  the  board  of  Admiralty  when 
aoy  of  those  matrons  were  appoiiited. 

Who  was  at  the  head  or  the  Admiralty 
liben  they  were  appointed  ? — Mrs.  Power  was 
put  in,  I  have  heara,  by  lord  Egmont;  the 
other  two  by  lord  Hawke. 

Do  you  find  any  before  them  that  have 
been  widows  or  wives  of  sailors? — Mary 
Chamberlain,  who  was  before  Mrs.  Poorer, 
sras  a  captain's  mdow;  £llls  Gregoxy  was  a 
captain's  widow ;  Elizabeth  Smith  was  a  lieu- 
tenant's widow ;  the  three  first,  I  cannot  learn 
vfaat  they  were. 

As  &r  as  you  have  been  able  to  learn  any 
tlung  about  them,  they  have  always,  till  now, 
been  widows  of  seamen? — ^Yes,  widows  of 


I  would  ask,  whether  you  think  the  beine 
miithig  women ;  we  will  say  to  either  lora 
Anson's  or  lord  Hawke's  lady,  or  the  lady  of 
any  others,  that  have  been  at  the  head  of  the 
Admiralty,  entitles  them  to  be  {mt  into  the 
Hospital  as  matrons  or  nurses,  or  in  any  capa^ 
city  m  the  Hospital  ? — Certainly  not. 

Go  on  to  the  next  ?-— They  are  the  butlers ; 
the  present  one  is  William  Saward,  who  has 
been  at  sea. 

When  was  he  appointed? — ^On  the ^5th  of 
r^mofy,  1772. 

Had  he  been  at  sea  before  his  appointment, 
<v  afterwards? — Before  his  appomtment,  he 
vas  clerk  of  one  of  the  yachts,  and  had  been 
maonr  voyages,  I  believe. 

The  next?— The  next  is  John  Izard;  he 
bad  not  been-  at  sea,  as  I  could  learn. 

Who  was  at  the  head  of  the  Admiralty 

when  the  last  butler  was  appointed? — Lord 

Sandwich.    The  next  are  the  butler's  mates ; 

«c  present  ones  are,  James  Skeene  and  Philip 
lewis. 

Have  they  been  at  sea?->Skeene  has  never 
«en  at  sea;  JLcwis,  I  have  Icanied*  within 
VOL  XXI.  - 


this  day  or  two,  was  going  with  sir  Charles 
Wager,  as  his  stewsuxl,  but  never  went  out  of 
the  Channel ;  I  received  that  information  since 
the  list  was  delivered  in. 

Do  you  know  anything  relative  to  their 
predecessors  ? — No,  there  are  four  of  them ;  I 
nave  marked  them,  such  as  I  have  been  able 
to  coUect,  that  the  butler's  mates  have  all 
been  at  sea ;  the  two  before  that,  John  Watts 
and  John  Qieese,  I  can  learn  nothing,  con- 
cerning them. 

Who  was  at  the  head  of  the  Admiralty 
when  the  two  stewards  and  the  two  last  chap- 
lains were  appointed  ?— Lord  Sandwich. 

Who  appomts  Uie  butler's  mates? --They 
are  appointed  by  warrant  from  the  Admiralty. 

£.  of  Sandwich.  Don't  you  mistake?  the 
butler's  mates  are  not  appointed  by  war- 
rant firom  the  Admiralty.  — A,  Yes,  they  are. 

Who  are  the  next  ? — ^The  cooks. 

Who  is  your  present  cook  ?  —There  are 
three,  Alexander  Moore,  James  Wartell,  and 
Samuel  Troke,  now  Wartell  is  dead. 

What  is  Troke?— He  was  at  sea  with  my 
lord  Anson ;  Moore  luis  not  been  at  sea  that 
I  can  leafn. 

Who  were  their  predecessors? — Henry 
White  had  been  at  sea ;  Thomas  Cale,  Thomas 
Bird,  and  William  Wilson ;  the  three  prior  to 
them,  I  cannot  learn  tiiat  they  had  ever  been 
at  sea. 

But  from  your  not  being  able  to  learn,  you 
don't  concluue  whether  they  have  or  not  ? — I 
have  made  the  best  enquiry  that  I  could 
amongst  the  old  persons  in  the  Hospital. 

But  those  that  you  have  not  been  able  to 
learn  any  thing  oi\  you  don't  from  thence 
conclude  they  have  been  at  sea  or  not? — No; 
the  next  are  the  cook's  mates. 

Who  are  they  ? — The  last  that  stands  upon 
the  list  is  Roser  Hunt,  who  has  not  been  at 
sea;  John  IV&thews  has  been  at  sea;  James 
ArundeU  has  not  been  at  sea;  Moses  Joice 
has  not  been  at  sea. 

Who  were  their  predecessors? — ^There  are 
seven  or  eight;  some  of  them  have  been  at 
sea,  and  some  have  not  been  at  sea.  The 
next  are  the  scuUerymen ;  the  present  one  is 
Nicholas  Levitt;  he  has  not  been  at  sea. 

Who  were  his  predecessors  ? — Randolph 
Norris,  Edward  Griffith,  John  Bardin,  Thomas 
Cole,  William  Steel,  and  Francis  Steward; 
none  of  them,  as  I  can  learn,  have  ever  been 
at  sea. 

What  is  their  employment? — ^The  scouring 
the  pewter  pots  and  dishes  of  the  pensioners. 

Tnere  is  nothing  in  that,  but  what  a  man 
that  has  been  to  sea  might  do ;  is  there  ? — 
No,  the  next  are  the  scullerymen's  mates; 
they  are  assistants  to  the  others ;  the  present 
ones  are  WiUiam  Gardner,  Robert  Russell ; 
neither  of  them  have  been  at  sea ;  preceding 
them,  there  were  three  others  that  had  not 
been  at  sea ;  then  Arthur  Knight  and  Jacob 
Stranger  have  been  at  sea ;  those  before  them 
are  William  Silkworth  and  William  Stalbert, 
who  have  not  been  at  sea^ 

I 


115] 


18  GEORGE  III.         Tke  Case  nfCapiain  fh&mai  iSditU&,        [i  1$ 


"Who  are  the  next? — ^The  porters  of  the 
Hospital ;  the  present  one  is  James  Lane ;  he 
has  nerer  be^  at  sea;  John  Willeyis  his 
predecessor ;  there  are  five  of  them  never  been 
at  sea. 

What  is  the  bimncss  of  the  porter? — ^Hc 
has  a  lodge  at  one'  of  the  gates  of  the  Hos- 
pital. 

Is  his  business  such  that  cannot  be  done 
by  a  seaman? — Certainly  not;  the  barbers  are 
the  next. 

Have  any  of  them  been  at  sea?— The  pre- 
sent one  is  James  Mackeness,  he  had  been  at 
flea;  he  was,  as  I  understood^  valet  de  cham- 
bre  to  my  lord  Anson. 

Have  any  of  the  rest  of  the  barbers  been  at 
«ca  ? — ^None  of  them. 

Is  this  Mackeness  a  barber? — Yes. 

Is  that  a  place  of  any  profit? — ^A  very  con- 
siderable one. 

To  the  best  of  your  knowledge,  does  he  at- 
tend ? — ^Never. 

It  is  a  sinecure;  is  it? — Yes. 

The  barber  employs  others ;  he  acts  by  de- 
puty, does  he  not  r--Ves. 

How  many  deputies  does  he  emplov? — 
Onlv  one  principal  man;  but  he  has  a  nun- 
dred  other  shavers  under  him. 

What  profit  may  he  have  for  doing  nothing 
at  all^— I  don't  know;  I  should  suppose  that 
he  has  about  ISO/,  or  130/.  a  year  clear. 

Was  not  his  employment  of  more  value  for- 
merly?— ^I  have  understood  some  years  ago, 
from  some  complunts  of  the  pensioners  not 
being  duly  shaved,  that  his  depu^  was  paid 
something  more  in  addition  to  his  mi^. 

How  much  salary  has  he  from  the  nosintal  ? 
-•-Twelve^pounds  a  year. 

What  does  his  profit  arise  from? — ^Hehas 
so  much :  a  halfpenny  a  ^meek  for  all  the  men, 
and  a  penny  for  the  boys. 

Who  are  the  next?— The  messengers. 

Who  are  they? — ^The  present  one  is  Wil- 
liam Herbert,  he  was  at  sea  with  lord  Hawke. 
The  next  are  treasurers  clerks,  the  present 
one  is  Edward  Boxley,  he  has  been  at  sea. 
The  next  is  ^e  clerk  of  the  works. 

Who  b  he?— The  present  one  is  Robert 
Mylne. 

Has  he  been  at  sea? — ^Not  that  I  know  of. 

What  is  his  particular  business? — ^Tocany 
en  all  such  works  and  repairs  as  he  may  be 
directed  to  do,  from  the  board  of  directors  of 
the  Hospital. 

Who  was  his  predecessor  ?-;-William  Ro- 
binson. 

What  is  he? — An  architect. 

Was  he  ever  at  sea? — ^No. 

Is  this  clerk  of  the  works  a  permanent 
officer,  or  only  a  temporary  one? — Formerly, 
the  clerk  of  the  works  was  only  paid  59,  a  day, 
while  new  works  were  canying  on^  but  now 
there  are  works  always  going  on,  his  place  is 
looked  upon  to  be  permanent 

What  IS  the  next  article  ? — The  dispenser's 
assistant :  the  present  one  b  William  Wheat- 
ley,he  has  never N^en  at  sea. 


Is  there  but  ona  assistant?— Only  one. 

Have  his  predecessors  ever  been  at  sea  ?-^  *" 
Never  aooe  ofthem^  to  the  amount  of  nine. 
The  next  article  is  snrgeon's  assistants,  tha 

S resent  vee  Thomas  Carnarvon,  and  David 
tacy  Story;  neither  of  them  have  been  at 
sea.  William  Wallace,  and  Francis  Thomas, 
their  predecessors,  both  had  been  at  sea.  Th6 
next  article  b  the  tumeock  of  the  Hospital^ 
Robert  Dickey,  he  has  never  been  at  sea;  there 
are  but  two  before  him;  they  bad  neither 
been  at  sea. 

What  is  the  next  article?— The  whale  list 
b  sone  through. 

Is  there  not  a  schodmasler  ? — Yes ;  there  is. 

Is  Mr.  Furbor  the  schoolmaster  ?-~Yes. 

Was  he  ever  at  sea?— Not  to  my  know- 
ledge ;  there  are  some  gentlemen  that  say  he 
has  been  at  sea. 

Do  you  know  ahy  body  that  can  speak  ta 
that  point  better  than  you? — ^Mr.  Taylor,  the 
surgeon  of  the  Hospital,  says  he  has  been  al 
sea. 

The  steward's  clerit,  Mr.  Daniri  Ball  ?— He 
is  lodgdl  in  the  house. 

Has  he  been  at  sea?— He  does  not  stilfc 
himself  in  that  hght,  he  has  been  at  sea  a  few 
montiis,  but  does  not  call  himself  a  seafaring 
man. 

What  do  yon  mean  by  seafaring  man  ? — I 
understand  a  man  that  has  been  borne  on 
board  a  ship's  books,  and  has  actually  been 
at  sea. 

So  you  think  this  one  has  actually  been  at 
sea? — ^Hehas. 

He  hasmade  a  voyage  ?— I  cannot  si^  that : 
I  have  heard  him  say  he  h^s  been  at  sea,  aiM 
borne  on  a  ship's  books. 

Do  you  iqpprehend  that  this  person  has 
been  a  voyage,  and  comes  under  tne  descrip- 
tion of  beins  any  ways  qualified  to  partake  of 
thb  charity? — ^He  b  in  the  House,  and  caa 
best  answer  for  himself. 

To  the  best  of  your  knowledge,  do  you  know 
of  any  new  offices  that  have  been  lately  intro» 
duced  into  the  Hosfntal,  that  were  not  known 
before:  that  there  was  no  foundation  fbc ia 
any  ola  charter,  or  even  in  the  new  charter, 
that  there  b  any  provision  fbrN— I  don't  at 
present  recollect  any. 

If  I  was  to  a^  you  a  question,  woidd  yon 
be  able  then  to  answer?  Do  you  recollect  a 
music-master  in  the  Hospital,  to  instruct  the 
boys  in  sinnng? — ^I  know  that  the  present 
organist  haa  an  addition  to  hb  salaiy,  for 
e»:hing  the  boys  to  sing;  I  don't  know  of 
any  new  office. 

What  was  the  additbn?—TwBOIy  pounds  a 


Was  that  addition  made  by  the 
or  general  court?— -It  was  recommended  bj 
the  gener^  court. 

Was  there  any  directk>n  ^ven  to  that  ge* 
neral  court,  to  the  best  of  your  knowledge,  to 
name  that  person  ?— I  don't  know  of  any. 

And  you  never  heard  ?-^No. 

[Mr.  Maide  withdrew.] 


llf}        retpeOiHg  iSesfhj/d  Ho0fiid  i^  Gminn^         A.  D.  1778. 


[118 


Mr.  AhiMs  called  m; 

W»  jowfiuber  the  fii9tGha|^aiQ«f  Greeo- 
wkh  Hosptel  ?-— Yes. 

Had  he  erer  been  at  sea? — No ;  he  wasid- 
wwf%  barae  imoa  a  shu>  in  oWbnaiy;  he  was 
mimster  of  Woolinch  fio^iital  when  be  was 


'  You  say  be  was  borne  upon  «  ahq^  in  ordi- 
aaiy,  so  are  the  preasnt  chaplains ;  you  un- 
dentood  tfa»t  he  was  chaplain  to  the  oidinaiy 
at  Woohrich?— Yes. 

Kotbomeuponasl^p  in  indipaiyF— Yes; 
bis  servant  used  to  be  mustered. 

Are  not  the  present  chaplains  home  oo 
board  a  ahip  in  oidinary  ? — ^I  cannot  teU  that. 

[Mr.  Slubbs  withdrew.] 

Xr»  JntUc  caned  m  again. 

Dojflwvaderatand  Jmiw^  fRsentohap- 
kins  are  borne  as  belonging  to  Uie  oidinaiy  F 
—By  virtue  of  being  chaplains  of  Greenwich 
Ho^ital;  one  is  eolerea  upon  the  Hulk's 
book,  at  Woelwid^  the  other  at  Defitford ; 
the  two  present  chaplains  are  so,  and  it  was 


Mr.  1StiM$  called  in  again. 

Was  3poar  father  borne  upon  the  ordinafy 
before  lie  was  chaplain? — Yes;  he  was  made 
chaplain  of  Greenwich  Hos|»tal,  bf  being 
boRie  upon  the  books. 

Do  tfiey  ever  contribute  to  the  charity,  by 
being  boine  in  ordinai^y  ^  ^^  Hospital?— 
That  is  a  thiqg  I  cannot  answer,  it  is  so  loi^ 


You  are  sure  he  never  was  at  sea?-*Ican 
a^r  l>e  never  was  at  sea  to  go  a  voyace. 

Were  those  chapbunsj  by  being  oome  ia 
ordinaiy,  looked  upon  as  bdeaging  so  to  the 
Homtal,  as  to  contabute  any  fu^  which 
chaplains  have  done  who  have  been  at  sea,  to 
the  diarity  of  the  Hospit^?— *I  don't  beheve 
that,  I  cannot  aoeount  for  that»  I  don't  know. 

Your  fother  was  chaplain  to  the  Hoapilai? 
i^Yes. 

How  long«>?— In  the  year  1704  or  17i05. 
.  Upon  the  test  establishment  of  the  Hos- 
pital?—The  veir  first  of  all. 

And  was  he  looked  upon  as  a  sea-chaplain 
when  he  was  put  into  the  Hospital  ? — I  can- 
not account  for  tfaat^  the  two  first  chaplains 
were  taken  fiom  the  ordinary. 

Taken  Itobi  the  ordinary  as  sea  chaplains? 
— ¥es;  one  from  Woolwich,  and  the  ether 
£iom  I>ept(ord. 


Wedn€$d^y^ilArch  17, 1779. 

Mr.  IUetem,'(tfae  Secretary)  called  in  agsdii* 

i  think  you  ware  desBred  to  make  some 
search  into  what  had  been  the  practice  of  the 
Hft«pi1aJ^  relatiiM  to  the  Tecommendation 
coouog  fiom  the  general  court  to  the  Admi- 
ralty. Have  you  made  any  such  researches? 
i^have. 


What  is  the  result  of  them?-4  have  kioked 
ov«r  the  books  firom  the  commencement  of 
the  establishment  of  Greenwich  Hospital  to 
the  present  hour,  with  as  much  care  as  I  have 
been  able  to  do.  in  the  short  space  of  time  ; 
for  I  hailtyraed  them  over  pegs  by  page,  that 
I  misht  not  miss  aa^  thing.  The  nrst  thing 
I  fina  that  has  any  relation  to  tins  busloess,  ia 
a  memorial  which  appears  in  the  books  in 
November,  1704;  thore  b  neithex  the  day  of. 
the  month  nor  s^poatur^  but  it  iis  clearly  in 
November;  the  memonal  is  firom  the  com- 
missioners to  prmce  George  of  Denmark,  then 
lord  high  admiral,  setting  forth,  that  they  had 
made  preparations  for  100  men;  that  was  the 
first  hundred  that  was  taken  into  the  Hos- 
pital; that  tb^  had  considered  of  the  ofiioers 
and  servanto  necessary  to  be  employed,  and  at 
the  same  time  presenting  his  hignn^  a  bst 
of  candidates  for  the  respective  offices,  that 
his  royal  highness  might  appoint  such  as  to 
him  might  seem  meet:  these  are  the  words  of 
the  recommendation.  ^  In  March  170^-8,  Ed- 
ward Smith  stands  upon  the  minutes  of  the 
general  court,  as  appointed  cook's  second 
mate,  upon  the  recommendation  of  the  direc- 
tors ana  the  oesnmiasioners;"  and  on  the  Ist 
of  April  I  find  entered  into  the  books  the 
prince  of  Denmark's  warraiKt  in  form,  appointr 
ing  the  same  man.  On  the  6tk  of  January, 
1716,  I  find  that  the  general  court  recom- 
mended six  persons  (naming  them)  to  the 
board  of  Admiial^,  for  their  approbation  of 
either  of  them  that  they  should  tWk  proper, 
if  theiy  should  appear  to  their  lordships  to  be 
duly  oualified;  tney  were  recommended  for 
the  omce  of  secretary,  in  the  room  of  Mr. 
Vendrick,  deceased.  On  the  9th  of  Deoend)er 
1716-17,  Hhe  general  court  recommended  to 
the  Adxniralty  Mr.  Thoi;iias  Srowne,  to  be  ap- 
pointed master  brewer.  On  the  23d  of  the 
same  month,  thi^  recommended  a  lieutenant, 
Edward  Smith,  to  the  lords  of  the  Admiral^^ 
to  be  appointed  a  clerk  of  the  cheque,  -and  m 

June  17  S2,  thc^  recommended  Mr. ^  to 

be  the  master  brewer.     I  don't  find  apy  thing 
after  that  date. 

None  since  the  year  17ftS  ? — ^None.  I  find 
many  recommendations  fi:om  the  Admimltv 
to  tbye  general  courts,  to  desire  that  they  will 
recommend  a  perscm,  such  as  the  organist. 

How  many  books  have  you  brought? — ^I 
have  broMght  those  books.  They  are  what  I 
have  made  these  extracts  from,  and  I  brought 
the  books  that  I  might  refer  to  them. 

Put  marks  in  them,  and  let  them  be  handed 
up  to  the  table  ? — There  are  marks  in  tbem< 
there  are  papers  which  refer  to  the  particular 
dates. 

(Tiie  books  and  the  papers  were  laid  on  the 
table.) 

You  mention  an  instance  of  six  reconn 
mended.  One  of  those  was  appointed;  was 
he  not  ?«— It  was  so. 

Was  any  one  appointed,  who  was*  not  in- 
cluded in  the  reGommendation?«-It  will  ap- 


119] 


18  GEOllGfE  ni.         The  Case  qfCapiam  Thomas  BaUlie^        [ISO 


Eear  by  the  books,  that  the  list  of  these  people 
as  been  omitted  to  be  entered  at  the  bottom 
of  the  memorial  to  the  prince :  they  have  not 
entered  the  names  of  the  several'  people  then 
recommended. 

Does  it  not  appear  in  any  account  of  the 
Hospital,  whether  those  persons  were  actually 
in  the  office  afterwards? — ^It  is  impossible  to 
know  that,  unless  we  knew  the  nersons  re- 
coiimiended,  and  tiiere  is  no  list  ol  tiiem. 

[Mr.  Ibbetson  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Maule  (Clerk  of  the  Cheque)  called 

in  again. 

Whether  from  the  list  of  different  officers 
that  have  been  appointed  by  warrant  from  the 
Admimlty,  you  nave  made  any  computation 
of  the  number  that  have  been  appointed  since 
the  present  lord  has  been  at  the  head  of  the 
Admiralty? — I  am  preparing  the  list,  I  have 
not  quite  finished  it,  I  shall  soon  have  done  it. 
ills  grace  the  duke  of  Richmond  ordered  me 
to  n^e  such  a  list,  a  little  before  the  House 
met;  I  immediatelv  began  to  prei>are  it. 

With  rcjgard  to  those  officers  tnat  are  land- 
men, does  It  come  within  your  knowledge  that 
any  of  them  have  given  any  thing  for  their 
employment? — ^Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Do  you  particularly  know  whether  the  chap- 
lains have  made  any  allowance  to  the  preced- 
ing chaplains  for  coming  into  office  ? — I  don't 
know  farther  than  report;  I  cannot  take  it 
upon  me  to  say  it  is  so. 

Were  not  you  in  an  office  that  received  the 
pay,  and  did  you  always  transmit  that  pay? 
What  office  were  you  in  when  these  gentlemen 
were  first  appointed  chaplains? — I  was  trea^ 
surer's  clerk. 

As  such,  did  you  pay  the  chaplains ? — ^Yes. 

Did  you  pay  it  to  them  or  their  predeces- 
sors?— I  cannot  take  upon  me  to  say  that  at 
present. 

Recollect. — ^I  have  often  paid  the  salaries  of 
different  officers  to  their  relations  or  fiiends, 
upon  their  signing  the  books  of  the  Hospital ; 
I  don't  recollect  tne  case  of  the  chaplains  at' 
present;  1  have  frequentiy  paid  the  officers' 
salaries  to  different  people. 

Please  to  endeavour  to  recollect,  whether 
YOU  ever  since  the  present  chaplains  have 
been  appointed,  have  paid  any  of  their  pay  to 
the  late  chaplains? — ^I  believe  I  may. 

The  late  chaplains  were  Mr.  Tindal  and  Mr. 
Campbell? — Yes. 

Wtio  came  in  upon  Mr.  Tindal's  resigna- 
tion ? — Mr.  Cooke. 

Do  you  recollect  whether  you  have  or  not 
paid  any  of  Mr.  Cooke's  pay  to  Mr.  Tindd, 
since  he  has  been  a  chaplain? — I  cannot  take 
upon  me  to  speak  to  that  at  present. 

Have  vou  paid  any  of  the  other  chaplain's 
pay  to  Mr.  Campbell } — ^No. 

I  understood  you  to  say  before,  that  3'ou 
thought  you  had  paid  some  of  their  pay  to 
their  predecessors.^ — Some  of  Mr.  Cooke's,  I 
believe,  I  have  paid;  but  I  cannot  say  posi- 


tively, without  referring  to  the  books  of  the 
Hqspital. 

Do  you  think  that  by  referring  to  your 
books  you  could  speak  more  positively  ? — ^Yes; 
I  believe  I  could. 

What  was  Mr.  Tindal's  age  when  Mr.  Cooke 
succeeded  him? — I  believe  8 1  or  89. 

Did  not  Mr.  Tindal  use  to  discharge  the 
duty  by  deputy  ? — ^For  some  years. 

And  did  not  Mr.  Campbell  do  the  same?— 
They  jointiy  procured  a  person  to  do  the  duty 
for  them. 

Did  they  lately  perform  the  duty  in  person  f 
Have  they  since  lord  Sandwich  has  oeen  at, 
the  board  F — ^No ;  very  seldom. 

Was  Mr.  Tindal's  curate  lod^  in  the  Hos- 
pital ? — The  curate  of  the  Hospital  had  a  room 
or  two,  and  has  been  lodged  for  a  great  num- 
ber of  years.      / 

I  think  you  said  the  other  day,  that  Mr. 
Campbell,  the  chaplain  of  the  Hospital,  had 
ran  away  from  a  ship,  and  had  Ibs  R  taken  off 
afterwards;  did  you  say  that? — 1  believe  {  did. 

From  whence  did  you  gather  that  informa- 
tion?— From  the  navy  office.  I  believe  it 
may  be  proved  from  the  books  of  the  navy 
office,  and  the  Admiralty  books ;  there  is  an 
order  on  the  books  of  the  Admiralty,  by  which, 
he  received  that  five  or  six  months  pay. 

Do  you  know  the  particulars  oi  tnat  run- 
ning away? — ^No;  there  are  people  that  canr 
give  an  account  of  that,  I  believe. 

.  Do  you  speak  from  hearsay? — ^I  speak  of  what 
I  saw  upon  paper,  that  Mr.  Campbell  had  be- 
longed six  or  seven,  or  five  or  »x  months  to  a 
ship,  and  had  ran  away;  he  had  interest  at 
the  Admiralty,  and  had  got  that  R  taken  ofi, 
and  there  is  an  order  from  the  Admiralty  for 
bis  receiving  his  pay,  and  he  did  receive  it. 

Can  you  tell  wnat  year  that  was  in  ? — ^No. 

Can  you  guess  at  all  at  it  ? — ^No ;  I  cannot. 

Did  you  see  it  yourself? — ^No. 

Whether  of  late  years,  before  the  appoint- 
ment of  the  two  present  chaplains,  the  man 
appointed  by  Mr.  Tindal  and  Mr.  Campbell  as 
their  curate,  for  some  time  did  not  do  the 
general  duty  of  the  Hospital  ? — ^He  did. 

Whether  in  Mr.  Campbell  and  Mr.  Tmdal's 
time,  they  ever  did  any  duty  at  the  infirmary  ? 
— ^Never. 

Is  there  any  duty  done  there  now? — ^There 
is  constanUy. 

You  said  that  the  present  chaplains  were 
entered  upon  the  books  of  some  ship,  and  that 
their  pay  went  to  the  Hospital;  I  did  not 
quite  understand  that,  be  so  gO€>d  as  to  ex*- 
plain  it  ? — By  virtue  of  their  appointment  to 
Greenwich  Hospital,  one  is  borne  upon  the 
ordinary,  which  is  the  hulk  at  Deptford,  and 
the  other  at  Woolwich,  and  they  receive  the 
groats  for  their  8er\'ants  and  for  themselves  ; 
tne  Hospital  receives  that,  in  aid  from  the 
treasury  of  the  navy. 

When  they  are  borne  upon  these  iiulks,  are 
they  as  chaplains  to  these  ships? — ^Yes ;  they 
are. 
When  a  clergyman  b  appointed  chaplain  t* 


ISI]        fitipeeHng  ike  Royal  HotpUal  at  Greewmkh.        A.  D«  1776. 


{in 


Greenwich  Hofl|Mte],  is  it  in  conBequence  of 
fab  appoiMluient  that  be  becomes  chaplain 
also  to  a  faolk  ^— It  has  e^er  been  so  since  I 


Is  it  under  one  appointment,  or  are  they 
separate? — They  are  separate  appointments, 
biA  fXD^  is  in  consequence  of  the  otner. 

Now  ibr  what  hulks  are  these  gentlemen 
appointed  chaplains? — I  don't  recollect  the 
ntmes  of  the  ships  now. 

In  these  two  snips,  are  there  any  men  ? — 
There  are  men  in  the  hulks ;  the  men  that 
are  lent  from  Greenwich  Hospital;  and  all 
those  men  that  are  lent  from  otner  ships  that 
come  frtnqk  Deptibrd,  they  are  all  Tictualled  in, 
and  bonitfon  board  of  the  ordinary,  and  there- 
fore #11  the  chaplains  pay  for  that  ship,  and 
the  wtele  ordinary  goes  in  aid  lo  Greenwich 
HospitaL 

Ek>  the  chaplains  do  any  du^  in  oonae^ 
quence  of  that? — ^No;  none. 

Are  they  liable  to  be  called  upon  for  any 
duty  ? — ^I  never  heard  that  they  were. 

Then  the  additional  appointments  which 
are  ^en  to  a  chaplun,  for  nimself  and  for  his 
servant,  are  converted  to  Greenwich  Hospital, 
for  the  use  of  the  Hospital  ? — ^Yes. 

But  they  are  paid  and  discharged  for  chap- 
lains of  such  a  hulk  ? — Yes,  the  treasurer  for 
the  navy  pays  the  pay  due  to  them,  as  chap- 
lains of  tne  hulk  to  Greenwich  Hospital.  I 
have  paid  it  myself  many  times. 

Are  not  the  ordinary  the  men  that  are  em- 
ployed to  do  business,  a^float,  rimng,  and  se- 
voal  things  of  that  sort  ? — ^AU  a%at. 

Are  they  not  paid  as  belonging  to  a  hulk, 
not  to  a  ship  ? — ^They  are  paid  as  thonging  to 
a  hulk,  not  to  a  ship. 

To  a  hulk,  which  is  an  old  ship,  cut  down 
with  a  pair  of  shears,  and  mast  put  in  it  ? — 
Yes. 

Then  have  they  not  four-pence  a  month  out 
of  every  man's  pay  who  is  concerned  in  that 
yard  ? — ^Ycs. 

Were  you  ever  concerned  in  any  other 
dock-yard  ? — No. 

This  four-pence  a  month  is  only  a  mode,  if 
I  understand  you  rieht,  of  sivine  that  pay  to 
Greenwich  Hospital,  in  aia  of  tne  revenue  of 
the  Hospital ;  if  I  understood  you  right,  it  b  a 
sinecure  at  Woolwich  and  Deptfor^  because 
the  men  go  to  church  in  the  parish  churches, 
they  being  both  in  towns ;  but  at  Portsmouth, 
Chatham,  and  Plymouth,  the  chaplain  does 
the  duty  of  the  ordinary,  and  reads  prayers  to 
the  ordinaiy? — ^Yes;  there  are  church-ships 
there. 

These  gentlemen  do  ne^duty,  they  are  not 
sea-chaplains  by  being  appointed  chaplain  to 
the  ordinary? — No;  certsunly  not. 

Is  it  usual  or  not  for  these  chaplains,  who 
have  served  a  regular  time  at  sea,  to  pay  any 
thing  out  of  the  pay  so  earned  towards  the 
chanty  of  Greenwich  Hospital;  I  don't  mean 
people  who  have  been  borne  on  board  of  ship, 
lor  aii  infrmt  may  be  that? — The  stoppages 
are  ail  made  by  the  proper  officers}  it  is  not 


ill  the  option  of  the  chaplain  whether  ke  will 
contribute  or  no,  all  stoppages  whatever  are 
made  at  the  pay-office :  there  is  a  stoppage 
made  put  of  tneir  pay  always,  regularly  ev&y 
month,  for  Greenwich  Hospital,  whether  they 
like  it  or  not 

Do' you  look  upon  persons  to  have  a  right 
to  hold  a  chaplainship  in  Greenwich  Hospital 
who  can  claim  it  no  other  ways  than  having 
having  been  borne  on  board  of  a  ship,  or  an 
hulk  ?  You  have  seen  the  charter? — ^I  have. 

Then  you  will  answer  the  question  I  have 
put  ? — I  cannot  give  any  answer  to  tlmt. 

Are  you  acquainted  with  the  dock-yards  of 
Portsmouth,  Plymouth^  or  Chatham,  to  know 
tke  manner  the  chaplains  do  the  duty  and  are 
paid  there  ? — No,  I  am  not  master  of  the  sub- 
lect  ^  I  have  been  freauently  there ;  I  have 
been  on  BOard  a  churcn-ship  at  prayers ;  but 
how  their  proceedings  are  there,  I  cannot  take 
upon  me  to  say. 

Do  you  apprehend  that  the  chaplains  of 
those  dock-yards  are  paid  for  the  ordinary  bu- 
siness, being  paid  by  the  dodc-yaord  for  the 
duty  on  board  the  church-ships? — They  are 
not  paid  for  the  ordinary,  I  take  it.  They  are 
separate  chaplains,  I  think. 

You  are  not  sure  of  that  ? — ^I  think  it  is  so  - 
but  I  will  not  be  positive. 

Then  we  will  come  to  Deptford  or  Wool* 
wich.  Do  you  know,  or  have  you  ever  heaid 
that  there  were  two  chaplains,  one  for- the  or- 
dinary at  Deptford,  another  tor  the  ordinaiy 
at  Woolwich  r  Did  you  ever  hear  that  ? — ^No, 
I  never  heard  it. 

Upon  the  present  establishment  of  the  chap- 
lains for  Deptford  and  Woolwich ;  for  I  ap. 
prebend  that  one  of  the  chaplains  is  borne  on 
board  the  hulk  at  Deptford  or  Woolwich.  Is 
it  so? — ^Itis  so. 

What  becomes  of  that  pay  ? — ^I  have  said 
before,  it  eoes  to  the  Hospital,  in  aid  to  the 
revenue :  I  have  many  years  received  it  my- 
self, when  I  was  the  treasurer's  deputy. 

Then  since  the  Hospital  has  been  establish- 
ed, there  has  been  no  duty  done  on  board  the 
ordinary  of  Deptford  and  Woolwich  ?  What 
does  it  amount  to  ?  Is  it  considerable  ? — ^Not 
very  considerable. 

From  what  stoppage  does  it  come  ? — The 
treasurer  of  the  navy  makes  the  stoppages, 
and  he  pays  it  under  the  several  heads  ofchap- 
lains  wages,  and  groats  for  the  ordinaries. 

Are  the  chaplains  for  the  ordinaries  borne 
on  board  the  hulks^  supposed  to  be  chaplains 
of  all  the  ships  lying  at  that  port  ? — ^No,  it 
has  nothing  to  do  with  the  ships  at  that  port, 
only  the  men  that  are  borne  on  board  the 
hulks. 

Is  not  the  chaplain  of  a  dock-yard,  chaplain 
of  the  whole  ordinary,  let  it  be  Deptford, 
Woolwich,  or  Chatham? — ^I  believe  not,  for 
this  reason ;  for  if  chaplains  to  the  dock-yards 
werechaplainsto  the  whole  ordiiuuy,  Green- 
wich Hospital  could  not  receive  it  at  the  same 
time. 

'There  is  a  chaplain  besides  to  Woolwich 


99] 


18  GEORGE  IIL 


draught  that  was  laid  before  me ;  I  will  ven- 
ture to  say,  I  should  not  have  put  it  into  any 
^rau^t,  and  will  venture  to  say,  I  should  npt 
have  struck  it  out.  I  forgot  to  mention  there 
was  an  act  of  parliament  passed,  in  re  wd  to 
the  landed  estate,  a  year  after  this  charter, 
which  takes  notice  of  the  charter. 

I  understood  you,  that  the  motives  of  the 
new  charter  was  to  vest  the  landed  estates 
and  give  a  power  to  buy  and  sell  landed 
estates. — ^No,  by  no  means,  the  ereat  motives 
of  the  new  charter  were,  to  enable  the  Hospi^ 
tal  to  act  in  all  those  capacities  that  it  was  ne- 
cessary a  corporation  should  act  in ;  because, 
it  was  before  necessaiy  to  make  every  mem- 
ber of  the  Hospital  a  party  in  civil  suits.  An- 
other great  motive  was,  to  give  the  Hospital  a 
security  for  their  money.  Another  was  the 
case  of  the  boys. 

The  other  alterations  of  the  charter  were 
made  by  the  solicitor,  which  you  did  not  at- 
tend to  ? — ^I  cannot  quite  say  so,  because  my 
own  hand  is  before  the  House  and  may  prove 
against  me,  but  I  rather  believe  it  is  so. 

Was  the  charter  confirmed  by  act  of  parlia^ 
xaent? — Not  strictiy,  but  there  b  an  act  to 
vef«t  the  estates,  which  were  prior  to  the 
charter,  and  by  charter  were  strictiy  vested 
by  two  acts  of  Georee  the  Snd.  There  is  an 
act,  a  year  after  this  charter,  which  vests 
them  out  of  the  king  into  the  commissioners, 
pursuant  to  charter,  and  which  recites  this 
charter  at  that  time. 

It  appears,  by  the  Records,  that  this  matter 
of  charter  had  been  in  agitation  several  times 
formerly? — I  believe  from  the  beginning  of 
the  century.  I  believe  there  are  draughts  of 
charters  as  old  as  1T20,  but  all  that  time  the 
Hospital  was  in  a  fluctuating,  unsettied  body, 
and  rather  pressed  for  supports,  and  not  in  the 
magnitude  ^t  I  found  it. 

You  take  that  to  be  the  reason,  when 
draughts  were  made,  that  the  Hospital's  reve- 
nues were  not  sufficient  ? — ^I  believe,  when  the 
Hospital  erew  to  this  magnitude,  that  the  ne- 
cessity of  getting  a  charter  was  felt ;  and  it 
was  a  work  of  some  time,  and  great  trouble,  to 
get  it  through  the  several  offices. 

What  part  of  the  establishment  of  Green- 
wich Hospital  do  you  mean,  that  has  not  been 
settied  till  within  this  two  or  three  years?— I 
believe  additional  captains  and  lieutenants, 
and  men.  and  many  officers  to  attend  those 
men.  All  the  business  pf  the  management  of 
the  Derwentwater  estate  is  a  veiy  modem 
story,  and  was  never  settied,  in  the  manner  it 
b  now,  till  1749.     [Mr.  Eden  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Sibthorpe,  (late  Solicitor  to  the  Hospital) 

called  in. 

Please  to  give  an  account  to  the  Committee 
of  what  you  Know  relative  to  the  new  charter 
of  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — ^About  the  beginning 
of  the  vear  1772  of  73, 1  am  not  ouite  positive 
as  to  the  time  this  circumstance  happened  in 
ihe  Hospital,  I  was  at  that  time,  with  Mr. 
Everest,  joint  solicitor  of  the  Uo8piUtl»  lieut^ 


The  Case  qf^apiain  Thvmos  BaiHie,         (KlO 

nant-govemor  Boys,  when  I  was  attending  at 
the  board,  I  believe  it  was  March  1778,  lieute^ 
nant-governor  Boys  was  in  the  chair,  at  the 
head  of  tiie  board,  the  solidtor  was  ordered  lo 
be  called  in,  and  I  went  in. 

What  board? — The  board  of  directors  of 
Greenwich  Hospital,  at  the  Hospital.    The 
lieutenant  governor  said  to  me^  Mr.  Ellis, 
Sir,  is  gone  away  vdth  the  Hospital^s  money. 
I  said  ihad  heard  so.    Then  Sir,  said  he,  you 
must  contrive  to  get  it.    I  said .  I  thought  that 
was  impossible,  as  the  Hospital  vnis  then  cir- 
cumstanced :  I  asked  Mr.  Boys  how  it  was  to 
be  done.    Sir,  sud  he,  it  must  be  done.    I 
answcr«i,  that  might  be  very  well  in  his  idea^ 
but  it  was  not  possible,  in  mv  opinion ;'  for 
that  there  seemed  to  be  no  moae  of  setting  at 
this  money,  but  by  filing  a  bill  or  information, 
in  the  name  of  the  attorney  general,  ^t  the  r^ 
'  lation  of  liie  governor  of  tne  HospitaL  against 
Mr.  Ellis  for  an  account,  and  that  before  that 
business  could  hejgot  to  perfection,  Mr.  Ellts 
would  be  gone.  There  dia  not  appear  to  me  to 
be  any  shorter  vray,  as  no  person  whatever  could 
possibly  swear  that  Mr.  Ellis  was  indebted  to 
nim,  or  to  a  rope  of  sand,  for  so  I  caUed  the 
Hospital  at  that  time,  it  not  beinjg  incorporated. 
I  was  then  directed,  as  solicitor,  with  Mr. 
Everest,  to  take  the  opinion  of  Mr.  Eden,  and 
I  believe  too  of  the  attorney-general,   as  to 
the  proper  mode  of  proceeding  against  EULs. 
Some  of  the  directors  seemed  to  be  struck  with 
what  I  said,  and  thought  it  might  beneces- 
sarv  to  have  further  powers  vested  iifmm, 
and  that  there  shoiUa  be  a  charter,  and  that 
gave  rise  to  this  charter  in  a  very  snort  tim^ 
aiW,  perliaps  even  a4  the  same  board ;  hut^ 
in  a  very  short  time  after,  the  board  of  direc- 
tors came  to  a  resolution  that  a  charter  should 
be  applied  for  in  the  common  course  of  busi- 
ness.   Whcnthe  minutes  were  brought  to  the 
solicitor,  the  business  was  set  about;    Mr. 
Everest  drew  the  first  draught  and  broudht  it 
to  me,  he  having,  I  believe,  under  my  oiiec- 
tions,  applied  for  and  ^t  uie  charter  for  in- 
corporating  the  Foundling  Hospital,  and  took 
that,  in  some  degree,  98  a  mode  for  the  words; 
pf  course,  afler  he  had  made  his  first  drauehtp 
he  brought  that  draught  to  me,  in  whiSi  I 
made  several  alterations,  and  after  I  had  niadc 
those  alterations,  that  draught  was  copied  aad 
laid  before  Mr.  Eden:  Mr.  Eden,  I  think,  I 
am  pretty  sure  too.  made  some  small  altera^ 
tions  in  the  draugnt  so  kid  before  him,  and  / 
also  drew  out  a  paper  in  which  he  prescribed 
other  alterations,  and,  in  pursuance  of  which 
direction  from  tdi.  Eden,  I  did,  in  that  draught, 
make  more  alterations  than  I  had  in  the 
former  draught,  my  lords.   The  miAters  being 
in  that  state,  Mr.  Eden  returned  the  draught* 
and  said,  tluit  he  thou§^  it  was  a  pn^er 
draught;  and then,I  take  it,  that  the  draught 
itself  was  copied  and  laid  before  the  then  at- 
torney-general, another  oopv  was  made  for 
the  soUcitor  general,  and  a  third  copy  for  Mr* 
Eden,  with  mtent  that  they  should  meet  to- 
gett^r  in  consultation,  and  s^Ule  the  chartfic 


JOi]        retp&ftmg  the  iayal  tto^fUal  at  Greewanch*        A.  D.  Vn^* 


[lOS 


0  h  oug^  to  be.    After  the  bbsiness  was 
got  into  that  stage,  there  was  a  meeting  be- 
Iveeii  the  tbei^aMomey  and  solicitor  general, 
and  Mr.  Eden^  at  which  I  was  present.    I 
liaDk,  and  am  pretty  certain  too,  though  I 
have  not  had  any  connection  with  the  Hospi- 
tal ibr  about  three  years  past,  therefore  if  I 
or  it  maybe  easily allow&d  me,  that  there 
WBre    9mo»  alterations  made  in  the   copy, 
iduch  Mr.    Wedderbum  had  as  his  copy; 
there  was  a  directi(»  also  at  the  bottom  of  one 
of  these  oopies,  signed  by  the  then  attorney 
general,  zbA  Mr.  Wedderbum^  directing  the 
letiaiiy  clause  to* be  added  to  it;    that  clause 
was  also  drawn,,  and  they  approved  it.    In  the 
course  of  this  business  the  cnarter,  or  draught 
of  the  ciiarter  at  least,  was  laid  before  tne 
board  of  directors,  I  think  more  Uian  once :  it 
WB8^  towards  the  close  of  the  busfawss,  laid 
MoFo  tiie  general  court,  and  it  was  at  that 
time,  and  I  believe  the  only  time,  that  I  was 
ever  called  into  the  general  court  to  be  asked  a 
(juestMA^  respecting  that  charter.    I  had  ex- 
pressed-mv*  doubts  what  the  stile  of  the  Hos- 
^tal  should  be ;  I  thought  the  word  commis- 
flioner  was  not  a  proper  one,  because  it  was  a 
charter^  and  not  a  commission :  I  thought  the 
word  governor  not  a  very  proper  one,  there 
Mi^  aaother  governor,  or  a  particular  officer 
called  a  governor :   I  thought  the  word  guar- 
ifiaD;  which  I  believe  is  part  of  the  title  of 
Foundling    Hospital,,    an   improper    thing. 
Ksvmg  signifiedf  these  doubts,  I  was  called 
iata  a  eeneral  court  of  admiralty,  at  the  head 
of  -whiSi  board  lord  Sandwich  was,  and  having 
been  asfced,  I  am  not  sure  by  whom,  I  thinS 
Mr.  Stephens^  what  I  had  to  say  respecting 
the  title?    I  made  nearly  the  same  obser- 
vatwRsthen  that  I  have  now.    Lord  Sand- 
wich said,  it  did  not  seem  to  signify  one  far- 
Ifaiog  wtet  tiiey  were*  called,  so  that  they 
were  incorporatea  by  some  title,  upon  which  I 
withdrew.    Theseare  the  genml  outlines  of 
a4iat  I  have  had  to  do,  m  respect  of  this 
charter.    It  was  my  duty,  after  the  business 
iMkd   been  gone  through  at  ^e  Admiralty, 
Mng  older  and  having  had  more  experience 
than,  Mir.  Everest,  to  conduct  the  matter, 
more  espedally  as  I  lived  in  town  and  he  at 
GreeBwich,  and  I  prosecuted  the  charter  till 
it  got  under  the  great  seal ;  and,  I  think,  the 
first  Saturday,  or  perhaps  the  second  in  De- 
cember,  1775,  I  carried  the  charter  to  the 
Hospital,  and  thought  that  I  had  done  the 
moflt  noble  act  that  I  should  ever  do,  if  I 
lived  an  hundred  years. 

Whether  you  recollect  which  were  the 
alteiations  that  were  made  by  yourself,  before 
it  was  sent  to  the  attorney  and  solicitor-gene^ 
ral,  and  Mr.  Eden,  and  which  were  made  by 
those  gentlemen  afterwards  ?-^I  cannot  say  as 
to  the  purport  of  them  now,  if  I  had  the  pa^ 
pers^  I  believe  I  could  point  them  out^ 

Are  th^  the  papers  which  are  before  the 
House  I — ^1  b^eve  they  are. 

(Some  papers  shewn  the  witness.) 


This  is  the  draudit  as  first  prepared  bv  Mr. 
Everest,  and  brougnt  by  him  to  me ;  tne  al- 
terations made  are  in  my  hand-writing,  and 
are  numerous. 

I  don't  mean  to  give  you  the  trouble  of 
mentioning  every  ven>al  alteration  you  have 
made,  but  to  particular  points ;  the  first  is^ 
the  omitting  tne  oower  to  the  general  court, 
and  giving  it  to  uie  Admiralty ;  the  second, 
the  power  of  removal  in  the  Admlralt^r ;  the 
third,  the  appropriation  of  these  monies  for 
the  use  of  the  Hospital;  the  fourth  is,  the 
power  of  sellins  ? — ^As  to  one  of  these  ques-' 
tions,  ^e  words  of  this  first  draught,  as  it 
originally  stood,  were  those.  "  And  that  the 
said  governor,  and  deputy-governor,  and  the 
treasurer  now  and  for  the  time  being,  do  as- 
^st  at  all  meetings,  the  said  commissioners 
and  governors,  or  the  directors,  of  the  said 
Hospital  hereafler  mentioned ;  and  we  do 
hereoy  empower  our  said  commissioners,  or 
any  seven  or  more  of  them,  to  recommend  to 
our  commissioner  for  executing  the  ofBce  of 
high  admiral  now  and  for  the  time  being,  our 
high  admiral,  for  the  time  being,  or  as  thev 
may  be,  to  appoint,  from  time  to  time,  all 
officers  necessary  to  be  employed  in  and  for 
the  said  Hospital.''  These  words  were  in  this 
draught,  when  Mr.  Everest  first  drew  it  and 
brought  it  to  me. 

Is  the  word  *  accordingly'  there  ? — No,  I 
altered  it  in  this  way.  "  And  we  do  hereby 
empower  the  members  of  this  corporation,  or 
any  seven  or  more  of  them,  so  assembled  in  a 
general  court,  to  recom^iend  to  our  high  ad- 
miral, for  the  time  being,  or  our  commission- 
ers for  executing  the  onice  of  high  admiral, 
now  and  for  the  time  being,  to  appoint,  fi-om 
time  to  time,  all  officers  necessary  to  be  em^- 
ployed  in  and  for  the  said  Hospital."  And  it 
appears  by  this  draught,  that  upon  reconsi- 
dering that  clause,  I  struck  it  wholly  out. 

Will  you  be  pleased  to  recollect,  whether  it 
was  of  your  own  motion,  or  from  instructions 
from  any  body  else,  that  you  did  strike  that 
clause  out  ? — ft  was  either  from  my  own  mo- 
tion, or  conjunction  with  Mr.  Everest,  in  con- 
sidering the  matter  again,  and  not  from  any 
person  whatever,  except  himself  and  me,  that 
that  alteration  was  mane  so. 

What  might  be  your  reason  for  striking  of 
that  out?— 5  cannot  possibly  say  what  my 
reason  was,  but  I  am  well  convinced  ii\  my 
mind,  that  at  the  time  I  did  it,  I  had  good 
reason  for  so  doing  ;  for  I  had  no  wish  what- 
ever to  do  anv  thing  but  prepare  such  a  charr 
ter  as  should  be  for  the  benefit  of  the  Hospi- 
tal, in  all  its  parts,  as  far  as  my  judgment 
should  extend. 

Do  you  recollect  any  abuse  that  had  been 
made,"  bv  that  power  in  the  general  court, 
that  made  you  think  it  necessary  to  strike  it 
out  ? — I  have  endeavoured  a  great  deal  to  re- 
collect since  what  I  heard  passed  from  Mr. 
Eden,  that  there  was  any  such  power  prac- 
tised by  the  general  court,  but  during  the 
time  I  had  the  management  of  the  business  of 


103] 


18  GEORGE  lU.         The  Case  of. Captain  Thomas  BmlUe,         [101 


the  Hospital^  eeneral  courts  were  Terr  imfre- 
quent ;  four,  nve,  even  to  nine  months  haVe 
elapsed,  from  one  general  court  to  another.  ^ 

Had  you  any  information  from  any  body, 
that  the  genend  court  had  not  made  use  of 
that  power  ? — ^Not  that  I  know  of. 

Upon  what  ^ound  do  you  say  they  had  not 
made  use  of  it  ? — I  don't  say  they  had  not. 
but  that  I  did  not  know  they  had.  I  haa 
nothing  to  do  with  the  appointment  of 
officers. 

Had  you  any  reason  to  think  that  they  had 
not  made  use  of  that  power? — ^I  rather  think 
I  had  no  particular  reason,  more  than  that 
the  general  courts  were  held  so  seldom,  there 
seemed  no  necessity  to  continue  that  pnower  ; 
that  it  might  be  injurious  to  the  Hospital,  if 
the  officers  should  be  delayed  nine  or  ten 
months. 

Was  there  not  a  power  for  the  Admiralty 
to  call  general  courts  when  they  thought 
proper  ? — I  do  not  recollect  that,  I  have  not 
seen  the  commission  these  three  years. 

The  other  alterations  were  the  additional 
power  given  of  a  displacing  or  removal  ? — That 
was  an  alteration  in  pursuance  of  Mr.  £den*s 
direction,  this  draught  having  been  copied 
from  my  alterations  hy  my  son ;  this  is  that 
copy.  Mr.  Eden,  when  he  looked  through  it, 
has  made  marks  in  the  margin;  and  u])on 
loose  paper,  gave  his  thoughts  respecting 
what  alterations  should  be  made  in  such  ana 
such  places ;  he  has  also  made  several  other 
trivial  alterations  in  the  draught,  as  he  goes 
on;  in  this  draught,  folio  leven,  there  is 
tomethine  which  I  am  well  convinced  in  my 
mind  is  Mr.  Eden's;  and  these  words  are 
underlined,  afler  the  words  '^  except  the  cover- 
xiors  and  treasurer  of  the  said  Hospital  pro- 
vided that  all  such  persons  to  be  admittea  mto 
the  said  Hospital,  as  the  officers  of  the  House, 
or  otherwise^  be  seafaring  men,  or  such  who 
have  lost  their  limbs,"  down  to  the  words, "  or 
otherwise,"  are  underlined ;  and  in  conse- 
quence tbls  alteration  was  made^  *^  except  the 
governor  and  treasurer  thereof,  and  to  dis- 
place, remove  or  suspend  any  such  officer  or 
officers  for  his  or  their  misbehaviour,  and  to 
appoint  any  such  officer  or  officers  in  the 
room  of  him  and  them  so  displaced  or  re- 
moved, provided  that  all  such  officers  to  be 
employed  in  the  said  office  are  seafaring  men." 
These  words  are  my  writing,  in  pursuance  of 
^r.  Eden's  directions. 

Do  you  know  what  were  the  reasons  in  Mr. 
Eden's  directions,  for  leaving  out  the  words 
•*  or  otherwise  T— That  will  appear  I  believe 
upon  that  paper  of  Mr.  Eden's  writing. 

(The  Paper  read.) 

In  the  power  eiven  to  vacate  the  offices, 
and  to  alter  the  salaries,  that  is  all  upon  a  re- 
presentation of  the  general  court  upon  Mr. 
£den|s  plan,  how  came  it  to  be 'different  from 
that  in  the  charter? — I  have  no  doubt,  but 
these  words  as  they  stand  in  this  draught  so 
nserted^were  shewn  to  Mr.  Eden  ai\er  they 


were  so  inserted,  and  that  he  approved  them  ^ 
the  words  are  these :  ^*  And  we  do  hereby  au^ 
thorise  and  empower  our  high  admiral  for  the 
time  being,  ana  commissioners,  &c.  to  lypoint 
all  officers  necessary  to  be  employed  in.  and 
for  the  said  Hospital,  except  the  governor  and 
treasurer  thereof,  and  to  displace,  &c." 

With  regard  to  the  other  two  alterations,, 
the  leaving  out  these  words  in  the  charts,  that 
say,  all  monies  shall  be  applied  strictly  to  the 
use  of  the  ssud  Hospital. — ^I  believe  they  were 
lefl  outj^  as  being  thought  wholly  unnecessary,, 
for  the  inserting  them  would  have  no  kind  of 
effect,  more  than  the  law  would  have  on  those 
who  took  the  money. 

And  the  power  of  selling,  who  put  that  in  ? 
— ^I  16ok  upon  it,  so  much  as  I  know  of  char^ 
ters,  that  the  charter  would  be  incomplete^ 
unless  such  a  power  were  inserted,  tboueh 
perhaps  it  woula  not  be  efiGsctual  to  enable  ue 
corporation  to  sell. 

What  I  want,  is  to  know  who  was  the  per- 
son that  inserted  that,  and  was  it  in  the  origin 
nal  draughty  as  sent  to  you  by  Mr.  Everest? — 
They  were  m  the  first  draugnt. 

So  that  they  are  inserted  by  Mr,  Everest 
originally  ? — ^YeSr 

Has  there  always  been  a  joint  solicitor,  or 
was  it  peculiar  to  that  time  ? — I  have  h«uicl 
that  Mr.  Radley,  and  Mr.  Everest's  father, 
were  joint,  but  I  don't  know  it  of  my  own 
knowledge ;  I  did  not  know  Mr.  Radley. 

The  powers,  as  I  understand  you,  for  fram- 
ing this  new  charter,  were  not  given  you  at  a. 
general  court,  but  by  lieutenant  governor  Boys,, 
at  a  court  of  directors. — ^No,  by  the  minute  of 
the  board,  not  by  the  directions  of  any  one 
man ;  I  ^nk  the  minute  of  the  board  of  di* 
rectors,  but  I  am  not  sure  whether  it  was  that, 
or  the  minute  of  a  general  court;  I  rather 
think  the  minute  of  a  board  of  directors. 

Where  was  it  held  ? — The  general  court  al- 
ways at  the  Admiralty,  the  board  of  directors 
is  neld  generally,  but  not  universally^  at 
Greenwich,  or  Saltcrs-hall. 

Then  you  can  certainly  recollect,  whether 
your  power  came  from  the  general  court,  or 
board  of  directors? — I  cannot  say  that. 

Had  you  powers  in  writing? — ^We  had,  for 
we  never  did  any  thing  without  power  in  writ- 
ing. 

Signed  by  whom  ? — The  secretary. 

Who  is  Uiat } — Mr.  Ibbetson. 

Where  is  that? — I  delivered  it,  with  all  the 
papers  I  had  respecting  Greenvach  Hospital,, 
when  I  quitted  London  about  three  years  aco* 

Can  you  recollect  what  the  powers  wereX— 
To  prepare  a  charter,,  under  tne  direction  of 
Mr.  Eden,  as  I  think^  and  am  pretty  sure  too»~ 

Without  particulariring  the  alterations  that 
were  to  be  made  in  it? — ^Without  describing 
any  alterations  at  all. 

Do  you  apprehend,  that  a  board  of  directors, 
without  consulting  a  general  court,  have  a 
pow^r  to  order  new  charters  to  be  made  out,  of 
their  own  accord  ? — I  think  that  they  mifiht 
have  that  power,  but  am  not  sure  which  ilr 


J053        rtipeeUng  the  Rcjfol  HtapUal  of  Greitmch.    .    A.  D.  1778« 


CMW 


wwa,  Ihe  general  court's  minute,  or  the  direc- 
tonf  minute;  I  am  not  sure,  but  the  minute 
vfll  speak  for  itself. 

£^  where  are  these  minutes  ? — The  origi- 
nal in  the  hands  of  the  secretary,  Mr.  Ibbet* 
son ;  the  copy  came  to  me. 

You  have  mentioned  what  lord  Sandwich . 
said  to  you  at  the  board,  that  it  did  not  signify 
under  what  name,  provided  they  were  incor- 
porated. I  will  a^  ymx  whether  you  had  any 
other  conversation  with  lord  Sandwich,,  rela- 
tire  to  the  charter,  and  whether  he  ever  gave 
}fou  any  directions  relative  to  it,  except  that 
time? — I  had  never  any  conversation  ¥dth 
him  I  think  upon  any  subject,  and  never  any 
Erections  fVom  him  of  any  sort  whatever,  ex- 
cept what  I  mentioned. 

Whether  in  the  number  of  years,  that  you 
banged  to  Greenwich  Hospital,  previous  to 
the  charter  beine  granted,  you  ever  knew  of 
one  instance  of  we  genersd  court  recommend- 
ing any  officer  ? — ^No. 

Honv  many  years  have  you  been  acquainted 
with  the  omce? — ^I  was  first  concerned  as 
agent  for  Mr.  Everest's  father,  about  the  year 
1766. 

You  must  explain  that  if  you  please;  you 
sudy  that  you  never  knew  that  the  general 
court  had  recommended  officers  to  the  board 
of  Admiralty,  to  be  appointed  for  Greenwich 
Hospital.  Have  you  said  that? — ^I  have  said 
so. 

Had  such  a  thin^  happened,  must  you  have 
been  acquainted  with  it  ? — It  does  not  follow 
ihaX  I  should. 

Did  you  attend  the  general  court  ? — Yes. 
Where? — ^At   the  Admiralty,  they   were 
never  held  any  where  els^  as.  I^  know  of. 

Why  were  the  eeneral  cotirts  reduced  to 
twice  a  year  instead  of  four  times ; '  for  by  the 
commission,  they  are  to  be  held  four  times  a 
year,  and  oftener  if  the  Admiralty  board  called 
them-  why  was  that  alteration  made  ? — ^lean- 
not  take  upon  me  to  say  that. 

Can  you  take  upon  you  to  say,  who  made 
that  alteration  ? — ^I  cannot  without  having  re- 
course to  the  papers. 

Whctiier  you  carried  the  draught  of  this 
new  charter  to  the  consultation  alluded  to,  of 
the  attorney  and  solicitor-general  ? — The  co- 
pies were  either  carried  by  roe  or  Mr.  Everest, 
or  one  or  other  of  my  clerks,  but  to  say  which 
at  this  time,  I  cannot ;  I  did  attend  the  consul- 
tation. 

At  that  consultation,  did  you  point  out  to  the 
attorney  and  solicitor-^neral,  the  alterations 
made  in  the  draueht  <?  the  new  chartei;,  from 
what  was  in  the  old  commission  ? — The  attor- 
ney-general was  in  possession  of  a  commis- 
aon ;  he  had  been  auditor,  and  as  such,  doubt- 
less had  a  commission,  and  I  think  I  remem- 
ber to  have  seen  it  in  his  custody  bound  in  red 
leather;  the  solicitor-general,  I  have  no 
^doubt,  had  a  commission,  Mr.  Eden,  as  an  au- 
ditor, could  not  have  executed  his  office  pro- 
peily  without  one ;  I  therefore  conclude  he 
huA  one,  but  to  say  that  I  pointed  out  the  diL 


ference  between  the  comnussion  and  the  char- 
ter, I  cannot 

>  Do  you  remeinber  thaft  it  was  a  subject  of 
the  consultation,  whether  those  alterations 
were  proper  to  be  adopted  in  the  new  charter 
or  not  ?-^I  don't  know  that;  Mr.  Wedderbum 
did  make  some  alterations  at  the  consultations 
in  the  form,  and  the  then  attorney  and  solici- 
tor«2eneral  did  subscribe  one  copy,  and  I 
think  the  writing  itself  is  of  Mr^  Wedder- 
bum's  writing. 

Then  you  know,  finom  these  circumstances^ 
that  they  were-  fully  aware  that  these  ahera-' 
tions  were  made  in  the  new  charter  ? — I  can- 
not take  upon  me  to  say,  that  the  attorney 
and  solicitor-general,  or  either  of  them,  did 
compare  the  charter  with  the  commission. 
Some  short  time  before  the  charter  passed  the 
seal,  the  then  attorney-general  requested  U> 
see  the  old  commission ;  he  de^red  to  see 
those  commissions  which  had  been  granted 
by  former  prmces,  and  they  were  carried  to 
his  house  in  Ormond-street ;  af^r  the  charter 
was  completed,  I  fetched  them  from  thence. 

It  was  not  a  matter  that  you  heard  discuss- 
ed at  the  consultation  ? — The  principal  matter 
that  was  discussed  at  the  consultation,  was  re- 
specting the  security  that  should  be  given  by 
those  that  had  the  receipt,  or  expenmture,  of 
the  Hospital  money. 

When  I  speak  of  the  alterations,  I  allude  to 
the  four  particular  points  that  have  been  stated 
to  you  ? — ^I  don't  tnink  they  were  particularly 
attended  to  at  that  time. 

How  long  was  this  consultation  beibve  the 
charter  passed  the  seal  ?— The  paper  will  shew 
you,  because  there  is  the  signature  of  the  then 
attorney  and  solicitor-general,  with  the  date 
to  it,  as  I  think. 

You  don't  recollect  ? — No,  but  dare  say  th* 
paper  will  tell  you,  because,  I  dare  sav,  thera 
was  a  date  to  it       [Mr.  Sibthorpe  withdrew.}. 

Mr.  Ibhetson  called  in. 

How  long  have  you  been  concerned  in 
Greenwich  Hospital?— Seventeen  years,  next 
May,  I  have  been  appointed  secretary  to 
Greenwich  Hospital. 

What  has  been  the  practice  of  the  jgenend 
court,  with  respect  to  recommendations  to 
offices? — ^I  am  very  certain  that  there  has 
not  been,  in  one  instance,  not  only  since  I 
have  been  secretary  of  Greenwich  Hospital, 
but  since  I  have  been  in  the  Adbmiralty, 
which  is  34  vears,  the  eeneral  court  having 
recommended  to  the  Admiralty,  any  one 
officer  to  be  appointed  into  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital. 

Do  you  recollect,  finom  any  documents  thai 
you  Imve  in  your  possession,  whether  there 
ever  were  any  recommendations,  from  the  ikst 
institution  of  the  Hospital  ? — ^I  believe  therm 
was ;  I  believe  it  will  appear,  upon  examining 
the  books  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  that,  for 
some  few  years  after  its  first  establishment,  I 
think  that  I  have  seen  that  the  general  court 
did  recommend  to  the  Admiralty,;  but  I W* 


131] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  qfCaptdn  ThomM  BaiOie,         [139 


^m€^  past,  slaughtered  bulls,  which  were  cut 
up  for  the  use  ot  the  pensioners,  brought  down 
to  Greenwich  Hospital,  and  served  up  at  their 
tables.  I  represented  this  to  sir  Charles 
Hard^,  the  governor,  desiring  he  would  lay  the 
depositidns  before  the  board  of  directors,  that 
the  contractor  might  be  prosecuted;  they 
were  laid  before  the  board  ot  directors,  and  he 
was  prosecuted;  but  the  prosecution  was  car- 
ried on  in  such  a  desultory  manner,  that  it  was 
a  whole  year  before  it  was  brought  to  an  issue. 
I  set  oil  at  first  with  six  witnesses,  most  of 
them  the  butcher's  own  servants,  at  last  they 
dwindled  away  to  only  two,  the  prosecution 
was  so  tedious ;  and  long  before  it  came  to 
issue,  one  man  I  was  obliged  to  secrete  in  the 
coimtry,  where  he  was  not  known,  or  clse^  I 
believe,  I  should  have  lost  that  man  also,  and 
have  had  no  evidence  at  all. 

Did  these  six  witnesses  make  affidavits? — 
No,  only  three;  I  thoiight  it  would  not  be  so 
proper  to  take  them  all  to  be  sworn  before  I 
came  into  a  court  of  justice ;  so  I  took  three  only 
to  be  examined  before  the  magistrate,  the  pro- 
secution was  carried  on,  the  butcher  was  con- 
victed, but  I  should  have  told  your  lordships, 
whilst  he  was  under  prosecution,  the  directors 
thought  proper  to  renew  the  contract  with  the 
same  man,  though  there  lay  before  th^m  in- 
formation upon  oath,  that  he  had  cheated  the 
Hospital ;  I  objected  to  that  contract,  but  it 
was  to  no  purpose. 

What  court  of  directors  was  that?  call  for 
the/minutcs  of  that  court,  to  see  who  were 
present? — I  don*t  know  the  number  of  the 
du'ectors,  but  it  will  appear  by  the  minutes,  it 
was  in  June  1775;  I  believe  the  depositions 
were  laid  before  the  board  of  directors;  the 
contract  was  renewed  in  the  March  following; 
in  the  mean  time  I  will  inform  yoiu-  lordships, 
that  while  he  was  under  this  prosecution,  a 
•econd  contract  was  renewed  with  the  same 
man,  afler  he  was  convicted  of  frand. 

(Mr.  Ibbetson  produced  the  book  of  the  Mi- 
nutes of  the  Di^tors) 

'  '^  A  minute  of  the  board  of  directors  of  the 
14th  of  June  1776;  present,  sir  Charles 
Hardy,  captain  Baillie,  captain  Hood,  Mr. 
Fonnereau,  Mr.  Pet^  Mr.  Steward,  Mr.  Cust, 

Mr. ,  Mr.  Hicks,  sir  Peter  Dermis,  Mr. 

Barker,  Mr.  Marsh,  Mr.  James,  the  rev.  Mr. 
Cooke,  captain  Campbell,  and  Mr.  Palgrave. 
The  governor  laid  before  the  board  a  paper, 
which  had  been  brought  to  him  by  the  lieute- 
nant-governor, containing  the  affidavit  of 
James  Hattersiey  and  John  Boycot,  two  per- 
sons late  in  the  service  of  the  butcher,  and 
Alexander  Moore,  cook,  first  mate,  setting 
forth,  that  the  Hospital  has,  for  some  time 
past,  been  served  with  the  flesh  of  bulls  and 
bull-stags,  instead  of  that  of  oxen,  agreeable 
to  the  contract.  Odered,  that  the  solicitor 
lay  the 'said  affidavits  and  the  butcher's  con- 
tract before  Mr.  Newiiham,  and  take  his  opi- 
nion in  what  manner  it  is  propei^  to  proceed 
ugainst  the  contractor.'' 


Capt  Baillie,  In  March  following  the  con- 
tract was  renewed  again. 

Mr.  Ibbetson,  There  is  something  which 
followed  this,  the  sohcitor,  oh  the  14th  of 
June,  the  very  day  the  affidavits  were  brought, 
it  was  desired  to  take  an  opinion  in  what 
manner  the  butcher  could  be  prosecuted.  At 
the  very  next  meeting,  which  wa9  the  24th  of 
that  month,  the  solicitor  delivered  to  the  board 
Mr.  Newnham's  opinion  upon  the  case,  laid 
before  him  in  consequence  of  the  resolution 
of  the  last  board,  &c.  Whereby  he  recom- 
mends, that  both  the  present  and  former  con- 
tractor should  be  prosecuted  on  their  re- 
spective bonds,  for  not  having  compfied  with 
their  contracts ;  ordered,  that  the  solicitor  do 
cause  prosecutions  to  be  immediately  com- 
menced against  them,  agreeable  to  the  said 
opinion. 

Are  there  any  other  orders  of  the  board  re- 
lative to  this  business,  between  the  order  and 
the  renewing  of  the  contract? — ^No.  On  th«^ 
13th  of  March,  1776,  present  sir  Ch|u:lei 
Hardy,  captain  Baillie,  captain  Hood,  Mr. 
Fonnereau,  Mr.  Pett,  Mr.  Steward,  Mr.  Cleve- 
land, Mr.  Hicks,  Mr.  Barker,  Mr.  Wells,  Mr. 
James,  the  reverend  Mr.  Cooke,  captain  Camp* 
bell,  Mr.  Wells,  and  sir  Richard  Bickerton^ 
proposals  were  given  in  for  supplying  the  Hos- 
pital with  meat ;  and  Mr.  Mellish  the  present 
collector,  offering  to  do  it  at  1/.  12<.  per  hun- 
dred weight,  his  proposal  was  found  conside- 
rably the  lowest,  and  was  accepted.  Ordered 
that  the  solicitor  prepare  a  contract  between 
the  Hospital  and  Mr.  Mellish  accordinglv. 

Are  those  contracts  determined  by  ballot  or 
a  division  ?  fii  what  manner  is  it  settled  ? — 
The  method  of  contracting  with  Greenwich 
Hospital  is,  advertisements  are  always  pub- 
lished, and  people  that  are  inclined  to  servs 
the  Hospital,  give  their  tenders  in  writing 
those  tenders  are  sent  in  sealed  to  the  board, 
and  the  general  practice  has  been,  that  before 
they  are  opened^  the  people  are  called  in; 
they  write  tneir  names  on  the  outside,  and  are 
asked,  whether  those  are  the  lowest  proposals ; 
if  they  say  yes,  they  are  desired  to  withdraw^ 
and  then  it  is  opened ;  tliat  has  been  the  con- 
stant  practice ;  I  don't  say^  whether  it  has  al- 
ways been  the  practice,  for  it  has  been  thought 
a  useless  thing  latterly  to  call  them  in,  aner 
once  they  have  sent  in  their  proposals  sealed, 
tlien  the  lowest  proposer  is  the  man  who  has 
it ;  I  never  rcmem>»er  any  division  about  it. 

You  were  present  at  this  court,  were  you } 
— I  was  present  ^  the  one  in  17  7  6. 

Do  you  recollect  that  any  objection  waa 
made  to  renewing  the  contract  with  the  per- 
son who  was  then  under  a  prosecution  by  that 
very  board  ? — I  don't  recollect  in  1776,  if  any 
^'as  made  in  1777,  I  cannot  say,  because  I 
was  not  present  then. 

Whether  after  the  contract  was  made  once 
to  Mr.  Mellish,  was  there  any  proof  ^ven  of 
Mr.  Mellish's  having  served  the  Hospital  with 
any  meat  that  was  improper  or  was  there 
any  fault  found  with  his  peiionnance  of  the 


139]         respecting  the  Royal  Hospital  nt  Greenwich.        A.  D.  1778. 


[134 


renuiiUDg  part  of  the  contract,  after  this  gen* 
tleman  was  turned  out  ? — ^At  the  first  contract, 
afio-  the  affidavits^  I  mean  the  contract  in 
1776,  the  matter  had  not  been  brought  to 
trial,  consequently  he  had  not  been  convicted. 
and  must  be  looked  upon,  I  apprehend,  till 
nth  ooaviction,  as  an  mnocent  man. 

W8&  or  was  not  this  person  who  was  com- 
pkuned  of,  continued  aider  there  had  proof 
been  given  of  his  serving  the  Hospital  with 
had  meat ;  I  think  it  has  come  out  that  he 
was  discontinued? — ^No,  it  does  not  appear 
that  he  was  discontinued. 

Was  not  the  contract  given  to  Mr.  Mellish  ? 
— ^YeSy  he  was  the  person  that  was  prosecuted. 

Was  there  any  other  person  that  that  con- 
iract  was  ofiered  to,  I  understood  you  so  ? — 
No. 

If  there  had  been  any  objection  made  to 
renewing  the  contract  with  this  person,  by 
their  method  of  keeping  the  minutes,  that 
objection  would  appear  ? — It  certainly  would, 
if  It  had  been  an  oDjection  made  to  the  board ; 
if  any  one  of  the  members  present,  had  de- 
sired that  his  dissent  might  have  been  entered 
in  the  minutes,  it  certainly  would,  but  it  is  not 
usual  to  take  aown  in  mmutes,  any  thing  a 
ainsle  member  says. 

Would  it  have  appeared,  if  it  had  been  de- 
•lexmined  by  a  majority  ?— -Certainly  it  would. 

Was  captain  &illie  present  at  that  first 
meeting? — He  was. 

It  does  not  appear  that  captain  Baillie  did 
object? — ^It  does  not  appear  by  the  minutes. 

You  were  present,  dia  he  in  hci  object  ? — I 
^on^t  recollect  that  he  did. 

Can  you  refer  to  the  advertisement,  and  the 
^nm  of  it  ? — ^I  cannot  produce  the  form  of  the 
advertisement,  we  do  not  keep  any  copy  of 
them,  they  are  things  of  course. 

From  your  recollection  of  them,  are  those 
advertisements  of  such  a  nature  as  to  oblige 
the  court  to  give  it  to  the  lowest  bidder  ? — 
No,  there  is  nothing  obligatory  to  the  adver- 
tisement; it  is  for  such  persons  as  may  be  in- 
clined to  give  in  their  proposals  at  SalterV 
hall  at  such  a  day,  and  such  a  time,  and  they 
are  to  do  it  agreeable  to  a  form,  wnich  they 
will  receive  at  the  proper  office  at  Greenwich 
Hosmtal,  where,  by  the  advertisement,  they 
are  oirected  for  the  form. 

Is  there  any  thing  said  in  the  advertise- 
ment, that  the  lowest  bidder's  terms  will  be 
accepted? — ^Not  at  all. 

But  it  has  .been  the  constant  practice  among 
the  directors  to  take  the  lowest  ? — ^Yes,  ever 
since  I  have  been  there. 

A  to  Captain  Baillie.  Did  you  object  at 
that  board  of  directors? — A. '  I  did  positively 
object  to  Mr.  Mellish's  having  a  renewal  of 
hb  contract ;  the  answer  vras,  it  was  a  mere 
natter  of  suspicion,  and  that  those  servants  of 
the  butcher  who  nad  given  evidence,  were 
under  prosecution  themselves,  for  stealing  the 
contractor's  meat;  therefore  their  evidence 
Might  oat  to  be  taken  at  all,  upon  that  I  said 
tH)  wnffe,  the  contract  was  renewed.     The 


prosecution  commenced  in  June,  1775,  it  was 
not  brought  to  issue  till  June,  1776:  ailer 
that  it  appeared,  that  Mr.  Melhsh  had,  prior 
to  this  contract^  supplied  the  Hospital  with 
bull-beef  for  a  considerable  time. 

How  does  it  appear? — Upon  the  affidavits 
of  the  different  persons  earned  before  the  ma- 
gistrate, they  had  sworn  to  different  contracts; 
one  man  to  the  contract  then  existing,  another 
to  the  contract  prior  to  that,  and  I  moved  it 
to  the  board,  that  he  might  be  prosecuted  for 
that  contract  also.  Mr.  £den  was  a  principal 
person  that  assisted  to  bring  on  that  prosecu- 
tion, which  continued  another  whole  year. 

What  was  the  event  of  the  first  prosecu- 
tion?—He  was  prosecuted  only  for  ten  penal- 
ties, but  I  believe  a  hundred  might  have  been 
proved  in  the  course  of  that  contract;  he  was 
convicted  upon  ten  penalties. 

Were  vou  at  the  trial  ? — I  was. 

You  heard  the  sentence  pronoimced.^ — I 
heard  it  pronounced  by  the  judge  and  jury, 
that  he  was  convicted  for  ten  penalties,  they 
brought  the  action  for  100/.  only. 

You  say  you  objected  when  the  contract 
was  renewed,  whilst  he  was  under  a  prosecu- 
tion?— ^Yes. 

You  say  somebody  objected  to  your  objec* 
tion,  do  you  recollect  who  that  was? — I  re- 
member very  well,  if  it  is  proper  to  mention 
names,  which  1  would  rather  wish  to  decline ; 
Mr.  Marsh,  formerly  a  commissioner  of  the 
victualling,  did  declare,  that  he  had  heard  the 
butcher's  men  were  under  prosecution,  for 
stealing  the  contractor's  meat,  and  that  de- 
fence was  set  up  for  him  in  the  King's-bench. 
which  appeared  to  be  entirely  groundless,  and 
without  a  shadow  of  foimdation ;  on  the  se- 
cond prosecution  I  was  ready  in  court  with 
five  witnesses;  he  was  prosecuted  for  fifty 
penalties,  for  fifly  breaches  of  contract.  . 

In  what  year  was  tliat? — 1777. 

This  man  was  convicted  in  ten  penalties, 
for  ten  breaches  of  contract;  I  suppose  there 
was  in  the  contract  a  penalty  of  10/.  for  each 
breach  of  the  contract) — Yes. 

Was  there  or  not  a  general  penalty  besides, 
for  the  breach  of  the  contract? — I  understood 
that  the  penalty  of  10/.  was  merely  to  oblu;e 
him  to  Dring  his  meat  in  due  time,  that  the 
people  might  have  their  dinners  at  the  proper 
hour,  and  a  general  bond  for  the  performance 
of  his  covenant  in  300/. 

Was  the  next  contract  renewed  with  Mr. 
Mellish  before  the  second  trial  or  not  ? — Hav« 
ing  been  convicted  in  the  ten  penalties,  after 
that  the  contract  was  renewed  with  him,  then 
a  second  prosecution  was  carried  on. 

Was  the  second  contract  renewed  with  him, 
before  the  compounding  the  second  trial  ? — 
Yes,  afler  he  was  convicted  on  the  first  trial, 
he  compounded  the  penalties  on  the  next. 

When  was  that  ? — ^He  was  prosecuted  first 
in  1775;  he  was  convicted  in  1776;  and  .in 
1776,  there  was  a  fresh  prosecution  carried  on 
against  him,  for  fifly  other  breaches  of  his 
contract 


135] 


18  GEORGE  UL         The  Case  ofCapiain  Thtmas  Baitty:,        ^S6 


You  don't  understand  me ;  when  the  con- 
tract was  renewed  a  second  time,  was  it  pre- 
vious to  his  compounding  the  penalties,  for 
the  second  prosecution,  or  after? — The  iist 
contract  was  after  he  had  compounded  the 
penalties. 

Give  an  account  of  compounding  the  pe- 
nalties.— He  had  several  times  petitioned  the 
board  of  directors,  acknowledging  himself  in 
the  wrong,  and  would  have  submitted  entirely 
to  their  Humanity,  or  goodness  towards  him ; 
the  prosecution  was  ordered  to  be  carried  on, 
and  it  was  brought  into  court,  and  I  had  five 
witnesses  ready  to  convict  him,  when  it  was 
all  on  a  sudden  compounded  for  100/.  though 
he  was  charged  with  fifty  breaches :  and,  after 
that  composition  of  the  penalties,  the  contract 
was  rencTi-ed  again,  and  he  still  serves  Green- 
wich Hospital. 

Whellier  there  were  not  two  of  the  same 
name  concerned  ? — Father  and  son. 

Distinguish  when  the  contracts  were  made, 
who  were  prosecuted,  the  father  or  the  son? — 
I  believe  the  &ther  and  the  son  were  the 
tome ;  for  my  part,  I  could  nevar  distinguish 
the  principal;  the  son  took  upon  him  the 
contract  the  last  time,  in  his  own  name,  I  be^ 
lifcve. 

In  whose  name  was  it?— They  were  both 
Earned  Peter. 

Were  they  both  joined  in  it? — ^In  fact,  I 
believe  tiiey  were ;  after  they  had  compound- 
ed the  penalties,  the  contract  was  put  up 
aeain,  and  Mr.  Mellish  proposed ;  I  objected 
then,  and  hoped,  and  entreated  the  board  that 
they  would  not  deal  any  more  with  a  person 
♦rho  had  been  convict^  of  fraud,  and  after- 
wards compounded  the  p.enalties:  I  addressed 
inyself  to  Mr.  Marsh,  who  had  been  a  com- 
Aussioner  of  victualling,  and  asked  him,  if  at 
the  victualling  board,  a  hop  contractor,  that 
had  cheated  tnem,  had  not  been  excepted  by 
public  advertisement? 

But  we  shall  hear  that  from  him.— The 
eontract  was .  renewed  again  with  the  very 
person. 

At  that  lime?— In  March,  1778. 

Q.  to  Mr.  Ibbeisan.  What  was  the  next 
time  to  that,  after  the  man  was  convicted, 
that  the  contract  was  renewed?— -4.  Those 
have  been  yearly  contracts;  the  second  time 
Was  m  March,  1777. 

0.  to  Captain  Baillie.  What  is  the  date  of 
the  conviction  ?— J.  June,  1776,  he  was  con- 
victed in  the  ten  penalties. 

Does  any  thing  appear  in  the  books,  rela^ 
tive  to  that  conviction,  since  the  time  you 
have  read,  and  before  the  time  you  are  coins 
to  read .?— Yes,  there  does.  , 

I  beg  that  may  be  first  stated.- Mr. 
Ihbetson  reads :  "  On  the  12th  of  June,  1776, 
the  solicitor,  by  his  letter  of  this  date,  ac- 
midnted  the  board^  that  in  consequence  of 
their  directions,  two  actions  had  been  brought 
against  the  contractors  for  siipplying  the  Hos- 
pital with  butcher^  meat,  for  having  served 
bull  beef,  and  bulUtag  beef,  instead  of , good 


fat  ox  beef,  agreeable  to  contract ;  one  of  the 
actions  on  the  former  contiact,  the  other  on 
the  last ;  that,  by  advice  of  counsel,  the  action 
on  the  last  contract  only  was  thought  proper 
to  be  pfoceeded  upop;  in  consequence  of 
which.  It  was  brought  on  to  a  trial,  befote  lord 
Mansfield  and  a  special  jury,  when  a  verdict 
was  given  for  the  Hospital,  of  100/.  besides 
costs  of  suit,  and  costs  of  the  special  jury ;  it 
was  then  immediately  ordered,  that  he  bo 
prosecuted  for  the  penalties  on  the  other  con- 
tract. iDtii  March,  1777,  present  sir  Charles 
Hardy,  captain  Hood,  sir  John  Major,  Mr. 
Hicks,  sir  Peter  Dennis,  &c,  proposals  Were 
given  in  for  supplying  the  Hospital  with 
butcher's  meat,  and  Peter  Mellish,  jun.  th6 
present  contractor,  havine  offered  to  do  it  for 
1/.  18<.  per  hundred  weight,  his  proposal  waft 
found  to  be  considerably  the  lowest,  and  was 
therefore  accepted." 

Was  that  Mr.  Mellish,  jun.  the  prekint  eon- 
tractor,  the  same  Mr.  Mellish  who  had  been 
convicted  of  the  fraud  upon  the  Hospital? — 
I  believe  it  is  the  same  Mr.  Mellish. 

Does  any  objection  appear  to  have  beerL 
made  ? — ^I  was  not  present  at  the  board ;  there 
does  not  appear  to  be  any  by  these  mimites;  f. 
have  brougnt  the  propoMils  hither,  there  were 

Eroposals,  and  here  they  are,  in  the  ori- 
,  as  presented  to  the  board  of  directors  ^ 
tne  from  Peter  Mi^ish,  which  is  the 
father,  his  offer  was,  for  twelve  Aipnths,  at  54^ 
and  4d.  a  hundred  weight.  Mr.  Peter  Mel- 
lish, junior's,  proposal,  at  the  same  time,  was 
S2s.  per  hundred  weignt. 

Were  there  only  those  two  that  sent  bfop«>. 
sals  ? — ^There  was  no  otiier  sent  proposals. 

This  was  in  March,  1777  ?— Yes. 

Has  this  contract  been  since  renewed  with 
this  Mr.  Mellish  f — I  believe  it  has.  t  Utank 
he  is  the  present  contractor.  On  the  4th  of 
March,  1778,  one  proposal  only  being  given 
in,  by  Mr.  Peter  Melush,  for  supplymg  the 
Hospital  with  butcher's  meat,  oncred  at 
1/.  lis.  6d.  per  hundred  weight,  his  proposal 
,  was  accepted. 

I  understood  then  from  you,  that  this  con^ 
tract  was  renewed  in  March,-  1777,  and  in 
March,  1778,  with  Mr.  Mellish,  junior,  the 
same  person  that  had  been  convicted  in  ten 
penalties,  and  afterwards  compounded  100/. 
for  the  second  time  ? — I  am  pretty  certain  it 
is  the  same  person ;  the  solicitor  will  be  able 
to  explain  that ;  but  I  think  it  is  certainly  the 
same  man  that  has  been  contracted  with  three 
times  running,  and  who  is  the  present  cott* 
tractor. 

Have  you,  in  yoiirbooks,  any  entry -of  the 
contract  upon  which  he  was  prosecuted?— I 
have  one  of  the  original  contracts  upon  which 
he  was  prosecuted ;  this  is  the  original  coti- 
tract  that  was  made  with  the  butcher,  to  com^. 
menceonthe  1st  of  April,  1776,  it  is  dated 
the  15th  of  March,  1775. 

Who  are  the  parties  ?— Between  Peter  MeK 
lish,  the  younger,  on  one  part,  and  sirCharM 
Hardy,  knt.  &c. 


1573         r^pMng  the  Roynl  Jfotfitat  at  Gfeetmich,        A.  D.  177^> 


tl^ 


See  how  the  penalties  are.— That  if  any  of 
the  lands  or  sorts  of  meat  aforesaid,  so  to  be 
deliTered,  shall,  in  the  jndgment  of  the 
steward,  orxlerk  of  the  cheque,  be  deficient  in 
weight  or  goodness,  or  not  cut  as  the  same 
ought  to  be,  that  then  it  shall  be  lawful  to 
cause  all  such  meat  to  be  surveyed  by  the 
captain  and  lieutenant  whosoever  it  shall  be 
to  do  the  duty  of  the  week ;  and,  if  disap- 
proved of  on  such  survey,  so  often  as  they 
ihall  neglect  to  cut  up  the  meat  as  agreed 
tipon,  to  nay  10/.  for  each,  or  every  breach  or 
de&ult,  that  shall  happen  in  ^e  performing 
this  contract. 

Is  there  not  a  general  penalty  of  SOO/.  ? — 
That  is  in  a  bond,  which  bears  date  the  same 
day,  the  15th  of  March  ;  the  bond  is  \a  the 
Sum  of  SCO/,  for  the  fulfilling  his  contract. 

Whether  or  not  there  were  bonds  general- 
ly ^en  by  the  butcher,  who  had  the  con- 
tract made  to  him,  before  that  bond ;  whe- 
ther it  was  usual  in  your  memory,  to  have 
those  bonds  ? — I  believe  it  wa2?,  I  cannot  speak 
positively. 

Whether  or  not,  since  these  complaints 
have  been  made,  and  the  butcher  has  been 
fined,  and  there  has  been  a  detection  of  this 
VObiiny,  the  Hospital  has  been  well  served  ? 
«— With  respect  to  these  bonds  having  been 
wnially  given,  I  see  by  a  notation  I  have  made, 
tnaking  a  little  abstract  of  the  contracts  made 
Ibr  some  yean  back,  I  Se^  in  lt74,  when  he 
was  contracted  with,  that  it  is  expressly  men- 
tioned in  the  minutes,  that  care  should  be 
taken,  that  he  gave  the  customary  security : 
urhetfaer  the  Hospital  has  been  well  served 
jobce  the  butcher  has  been  convicted,  or  com- 
promised the  other  acUon,  I  can't  say ;  I  be- 
fieve'  it  will  appear  there  have  been  ho  com- 
plaints, at  least^  I  have  heard  none;  but 
ftntst  beg  to  refer  your  lordships  to  the  mi- 
liiaxT  o&er  there. 

WiA  regard  to  the  notices  that  were  given 
hy  advertisement,  what  time  is  usually  given 
for  those  advertisements,  for  persons  to  deli- 
ver in  their  proposals  ? — It  is  sometimes  ad- 
irertised  kmger,  sometimes  shorter,  just  aB  it 
happens ;  generally  a  week's  notice  is  given, 
aaia  my  derk  has  it  in  direction  to  put  it  in 
iiftost  of  the  morning  papen ;  and  if  it  is  a 
contract  for  woollen  or  linen  cloth,  where 
pieople  may  propose  out  of  the  country,  there 
tre  give  lon^  notice,  but  for  the  butcher,  we 
gener^ly  give  about  a  week's  notice* 

Were  not  tho&e  advertisements  inserted  by 
the  order  of  the  court  of  directors  ? — ^Yes ;  the 
steward  generally  represents  that  a  cohtract 
is  near  expiring,  and  then  the  board  of  direc- 
tots  order  it  to  be  advertised.  I  see  the  no- 
tice *for  lt78.  **  On  the  «lst  of  February  1778, 
upon  a  letter  from  the  steward,  wherein  he 
ineiitioned  that  the  butcher's  contract  would 
expire  at  the  efid  of  Maith.  Ordered,  that 
BOtice  be  given  in  tlie  new»)apers  as  usual, 
ftr  such  persons  as  may  be  wilfing  to  contract, 
ke.  to  grtre  lA  their  proposals  on  Wednesday 


Does  it  appear  on  what  day  of  the  week 
that  was } — It  was  on  Saturday  the  Slst.  . 

So  that  the  directions  were  on  the  Satur- 
day, that  the  proposals  should  be  Made  on  the 
Wednesday  se'ennight ;  does  it  appear  how 
soon  that  advertisement  was  put  into  the  pa^ 
per  ? — ^We  have  nothing  here  that  wiU  shew 
that,  without  referring  to  the  paper. 

How  long  has  Mr.  Peter  Mellish  and  hit 
father  been  contracted  with? — I  find  in  the 
year  17C4,  one  Samuel  Mellish  was  the  con- 
tractor;  in  1765,  a  Mr.  Land;  in  1766,  a  Mr« 
Preddy ;  and  in  1767,  he  only  contracted  for 
six  months  at  a  time ;  in  1768,  comes  Mr. 
Pel^r  Mellish,' whether  he  is  the  father  or  the 
son,  it  does  not  appear^  he  has  it  for  that 
year;  then  Mr.  Preddy  comes  again,  and  in 
September,  1769^  Peter  Mellish  is  contracted 
with,  and  again  m  September,  1770-  in  Oc- 
tober, 1771,  he  is  contracted  with,  and  the 
Mellishes  have  had  it  fi-om  that  time,  without 
any  persons  besides  intervening ;  there  is  one 
year  that  I  have  not  eot,  which  is  in  1771,  and 
whether  it  was  this  Mr.  Mellish  or  not,  I  don't 
khow ;  but  he  seems  to  go  regularly  hack  as 
far  as  1771. 

When  was  Preddy  ?— The  last  of  Preddy  is 
the  15th  of  March,  1769,  he  contracted  fof 
six  months,  arid  then  Mr.  Peter  Mellish  takes, 
it  up  the  other  six  months.  In  1771,  it  doe^ 
not  appear  who  was  tiie  contractor,  but  other- 
wise Peter  Mellish,  either  father  or  son,  seem 
to  have  had  it  from  Sept.  1769,  regularly. 

For  how  many  years  back  does  it  appear 
that  no  othei^  persons  offered,  except  the 
father  and  son?— We  don't  ascertain  the 
number  of  proposals  unon  our  minutes  with- 
out lookine  back,  and  endeavouring  to  find 
the  proposals  themselves. 

Because  you  mentioned  Mr.  Mellidh,  the 
fother  and  son,  made  different  proposals  ?-^In 
1764, 1  have  made  notations,  that  there  were 
four  proposals  ;  in  1765  there  were  several. 

Read  the  names  of  the  persons  who  were 
present  in  March,  1777,  when  the  contract  ^vas 
renewed ;  what  notice  was  there  given  to  the 
Hospital,  and  entered  in  their  books,  that  the 
penalties  were  compounded  ?— ^It  was  from  a 
letter  of  the  solicitor's ;  the  solicitor  informed 
the  board,  immediately  after  the  actioh,  of  the 
event  of  it 

Crhe  Solicitor's  letter  read,  dated  the  Slst  of 
May,  1777.) 

Lord  Fortesctte.  After  having  premised 
that,  as  this  afi^r  is  likely  to  Be  a  pretty 
considerable  length,  I  am  the  last  lord  in  this 
House  that  ^omd  desire  to  procrastinate  it ; 
I  would  ask  you  after  tiiete  two  Mr.  Mel- 
lishes Were  out,  after  these  things  being 
proved,  whether  or  Hot  there  was  any  feu  It ; 
or  on  the  contrary,  whether  the  other  person 
who  was  takeA  in  upon  the  Mellishes  being 
put  out,  to  perform  the  contract  of  the  Hos- 
pital, did  or  did  not  serve  them  with  meat,  so 
as  to  give  general  satisfaction? — ^The  Mel- 
Ibhea  were  not  put  but. 


199] 


18  GEORGE  tiL  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaiUie,         [14(> 


Were  ihcy  never  put  out  at  all  ? — ^Not  since 
those  prosecutions. 

Was  there  no  pen>on  ever  put  in? — ^No; 
there  was  on  the  dlst  of  May  1777,  tliat  Mr. 
Bverest  had  commission  given  to  compromise 
it  on  the  llth  of  June,  1777.  [A  letter  of  thio 
date,  firom  the  soUcitor,  was  read,  representing, 
that  the  clause  a^unstthe  butcher  was  com* 
promised  in  court  J 

Were  both  the  actions  brought  upon  the 
same  contract? — ^No ;  they  must  have  been 
upon  different  contracts,  because  they  were  at 
different  periods  of  time. 

Read  the  names  of  the  fjersons  who  were 
present  at  the  renewal  of  the  contract  in 
1777. — Sir  Charles  Hardy  the  governor,  cap- 
tain Hood,  the  treasurer,  sir  John  Major,  Mr. 
Hicks,  sir  Peter  Dennis,  Mr.  Barker,  Mr. 
Marsh,  Mr.  Wells,  Mr.  James,  and  the  rev. 
Mr.  Cooke. 

That  was  after  the  first  conviction  ? — ^Yes. 

Captain  Baillie  called  in  again. 

Who  first  Informed  you  about  the  pensioners 
"being  supplied  with  bull  beef? — ^Alexander 
Mdbre,  the  cook's  mate. 

What  month  was  tliat  in  ? — In  the  month 
of  June  1775. 

Are  you  sure  it  was  in  the  month  of  June 
that  Mr.  Moore  first  told  you  of  the  bull  beef? 
^I  have  it  m  my  minu^s;  I  carried  the 
butcher's  servants  and  the  cook  before  justice 
Pell,  where  they  confessed  on  the  7th  ot  June, 
1775. 

My  ouestion  is,  who  first  informed  you 
about  tne  bull  beef?  You  say  Alexander 
Moore  did  ? — ^Yes. 

In  what  month  was  it  he  gave  vou  this  first 
information  ^ — It  was  either  in  the  latter  end 
of  May,  or  the  be^ning  of  June,  1775,  but  I 
believe  in  the  begmning  of  June,  because  I 
see  the  affidavits  are  sworn  on  the  9th. 

When  was  it  you  acquainted  the  directors 
of  it.?— I  thought  it  my  duty  to  complain  first 
to  the  governor  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  and  I 
laid  authenticated  copdes  of  the  depositions 
before  the  eovemor  of  the  Hospital  immedi- 
ately after  3iey  were  sworn. 

When  did  you  lay  them  before  the  direc- 
tors ? — ^I  did  not  lay  them  before  the  direc- 
tors; they  were  laid  before  the  governor;  I 
desired  him  to  present  them  to  the  directors. 

The  following  fourteen  Questions  were  asked 
by  the  Earl  of  Sandwich. 

Did  you  examine  William  Fleoe? — I  be- 
lieve he  was  examined  upon  that  business. 

Did  you  examine  him? — ^I  believe  1  had 
someiconversation  with  him  upon  the  subject. 

Whether  his  examination  at  any  time  was 
taken  in  writing  by  you^  or  in  your  presence  ? 
-~I  don't  recollect  that  it  was ;  I  am  not  cer- 
tain! I  don't  speak  positively ;  I  had  some 
conversation  with  all  the  butcher's  servants 
upon  that  occasion  concerning  bull  beef. 

But  cannot  you  say  positively  wheUier  this 
man's  examination  was  taken  m  writing  be- 


fore you  or  not? — I  cannot  say;   there  were 
three  of  them  that  were. 

Did  you  never  give  the  examination  im 
writine  to  any  person,  and  to  what  person  ? — 
1  don^  recoUect  that  I  ever  gave  it  to  any 
person  whatever ;  I  remember  very  well  such 
a  man  was  upon  the  list  of  e\idences ;  but 
that  man,  when  it  came  to  the  day  of  trial, 
he  was  not  to  be  found ;  hp  went  out  of  the 
way. 

That  is  not  the  question,  it  is  a  plain  ques- 
tion, and  I  think  I  put  it  very  clearly ;  you 
doubt  whether  any  examination  was  taken 
before  you ;  in  order  to  prove  whether  it  was 
taken  before  you  or  not,  1  desire  you  will  here 
say,  whether  you  did  give  to  any  body  the 
examination  ot  Fleoe  ? — I  cannot  say  positive^ 
ly  whetlier  I  did  or  no ;  I  had  some  conver- 
sation with  the  man  upon  the  subject,  and  I 
might  have  taken  some  examination  from 
them  all.  I  had,  as  I  said,  ^y^  evidences  at 
first,  and  they  all  went  off  except  two ;  1  had 
the  examination  of  one  Payne  and  of  one 
Largent. 

I  stick  to  my  question,  to  which  I  expect  an 
answer,  whether  you  did  or  not  lay  the  exa- 
mination of  Fleoe  before  any  particular  per- 
son ? — I  cannot  answer  that  Question,  because 
I  don't  remember  it ;  I  had  nve  upon  my  list 
at  first,  and  they  diminished  away  to  two; 
one  man  was  going  to  Holland,  another  to 
America,  I  stopped  him,  and  got  his  exami- 
nation. 

I  will  refresh  your  memory  farther;  did 
you  ever  give  the  examination  of  Fleoe  to  the 
solicitor  of  tlie  Hospital? — ^I  believe  that  Mr. 
Kerr  might  have  taken  that  man's  evidence, 
but  not  I. 

Did  Mr.  Kerr  take  it  in  your  presence? — ^I 
don't  think  he  did,  1  don't  know. 

That  is  not  an  answer  to  my«question  >  my   . 
question  is,  did  you  or  not  give  it  to  the  soli-.  ' 
citor  of  the  Hospital? — I  cannot  tell  vou;  I 
save  him  all  the  information  I  coula  upon 
uat  business. 

Upon  what  day  did  you  give  the  solicitor 
of  the  Hospital  all  the  information  that  you 
could  give  nim  ? — ^At  different  times. 

When  did  you  give  him  the  last  informa* 
tion.^ — ^I  cannot  remember  such  a  thing  as 
that.  . 

Do  you  recollect  when  the  cause  was  tried  ? 
— I  remember  tlie  day  of  the  trial  perfectly 
well.  1 

Was  tlie  information  and  the  examinatioii 
you  gave  to  the  solicitor  of  the  Hospital  given 
to  him  the  day  before  the  trial,  or  was  it  not? 
— I  don't  know  on  what  day  it  was  given  to 
him ;  I  declare,  I  gave  him  all  the  informa- 
tion I  could  collect,  and  I  was  at  great  expence 
in  collecting  that  information. 

[Capt^  Baillie  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Marsh  called  in. 

Whether  you  have  not  been  in  the  victual- 
linz  office,  as  a  commissioner  ? — I  have. 
Whether,  in  the  victualling  office^  there  ar^ 


141]  rapeciing  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Greenimch         A.  D.  I778. 


[f4« 


cases  of  persons  haTine  been  guilty  of  breaches 
of  contract,  and  have  been  excepted  to  by  ad- 
vertisement ? — ^Not  while  I  was  in  Uie  victual- 
ting. 

Was  there  such  an  instance  in  the  case  of 
an  hop  contractor? — ^I  have  heard  of  such  an 
instance,  but  I  don't  know  it  of  my  own  know- 
ledge. 

Has  there  happened  any  breaches  of  con- 
tnct,  in  the  victualling-office,  since  you  have 
been  there  ? — There  has. 

ABd  have .  the  persons  guilty  of  those 
breaches  been  employed  again } — ^They  have. 

In  what  instances? — ^A  butcher  we  con- 
tracted with  to  serve  the  fleet  at  Chatham  and 
the  Nore ;  he  sent  inferior  oxen,  our  officer 
there  refused  them,  and  agreeable  to  our  order 
and  the  terms  of  our  contract,  he  went  to 
Chatham  market  immediately  and  purchased 
meat  at  an  extraordinary  rate,  and  made  him 
pvy  the  difference. 

And  that  very  person  was  employed  again  ? 
—Yes,  upon  a  public  advertisement ;  he  was 
the  lowest  tenderer. 

What  were  the  terms  of  your  advertisement  ? 
—Advertisements  for  those  that  would  tender 
to  serve  the  Hospital  with  ox  meat. 

Are  there  any  expressions  in  them  that 
mentions,  that  you  engage  the  lowest  bidder  ? 
— «No,  that  is  understood  m  course. 

Was  there  any  thing  ^eivourable  in  the  cir- 
comstance  of  that  man,  who  had  been  guilty 
•f  that  breach  of  contract,  that  had  induced 
you  to  renew  it  again  with  him  I — ^We  punish- 
ed bim  in  the  first  instance ;  he  performed  his 
contract  very  well  afterwards. 

This  instance  that  you  mention  of  the  hop 
contractor  ? — ^I  know  nothing  of  that  of  my 
own  knowledge ;  I' was  a  commissioner  of  the 
victualling  about  nine  years,  and  nothing  of 
the  kind  happened  in  my  time. 

Do  you  recollect  to  have  heard  at  what 
time  the  affisdr  of  the  hop  contractor  happen- 
ed ? — ^I  have  heard  of  it,  but  never  heara  now 
many  years  it  was  before  my  time. 

Have  there  been  many  instances  in  which 
tiiere  have  been  breaches  of  contract,  in  the 
victualling-office  ? — ^Not  a  great  many,  but  the 
iontiactor  was  ^nerally  punished  in  tnat  way. 

Do  you  imagine  it  is  very  easy  to  convict  a 
contractor  that  is  guilty  of*^  breaches  of  con- 
tract?— ^I  think  so. 

Don't  you  think  it  is  possible  for  a  contrac- 
tor to  be  guilty  of  breaoies  of  contract,  with- 
•ut  being  found  out  and  detected  ? — ^Not  in 
the  victualHne-office. 

Why  so  ?— -Because  we  receive  live  oxen  at 
the  victualling-office ;  the  contractor  had 
drove  down  live  oxen  to  Chatham^  and  they 
were  judged,  by  the  officer  there,  inferior  to 
the  contract 

I  am  onlv  asking  in  general,  whether  it  does 
not  very  often  happen,  according  to  what  you 
must  know  of  that  business,  imX  contractors 
are  guilty  of  breaches  of  contract,  without  it 
being  possible  to  prove  it  in  a  court  of  Justice  ? 
—I  never  knew  an  iostanqe  of  it. 


Did  ytm  never  hear  complaints  of  bad  pro- 
vision from  the  victualling  office,  being  fur- 
nished on  account  of  any  ships  ? — I  have  not ; 
partial  complaints  there  ever  were  and  ever 
will  be,  in  so  great  a  concern  as  that  of  vic- 
tualling his  majesy's  navv ;  partial  complaints 
there  alvrays  were,  ana  for  various  reasons 
which  I  can  acquaint  this  House  with. 

Do  you  believe  th<iy  were  always  partial, 
bad  reasons  ? — ^Partial  reasons  they  must  be ; 
but  in  the  general  we  have  been  served  well, 
and  the  navy  has  been  served  well. 

But  I  ask  ;]^ou,  whether  it  is  possible  always^ 
with  great  facility,  to  bring  a  contractor  ta 
conviction? — ^With  respect  to  what  has  been 
said  about  the  commissioners  of  the  victual- 
line,  captain  Baillie  has  gone  out  of  his  road^ 
ana  charged  the  commissioners  of  the  victual- 
line  with  providing  bad  meat  for  the  navy ; 
ana  I  take  ui)on  me  to  say  it  is  false. 

If  the  victualling  office  had  ordered  a  pro- 
secution against  any  man  for  a  breach  of  con- 
tract, do  you  think  that  they  would,  during  a 
prosecution,  enter  into  another  contract  with 
him } — I  mean  that  after  an  advertisement  of 
the  lowest  tenderer  proved  to  be  a  Mr.  Mel- 
lish,  or  any  body  else  who  had  been  supposed 
guilty  of  fraud,  or  had  been  guiltjr  of  fraud,  if 
no  other  person  offered,  and  the  king's  service 
would  have  suffered,  as  it  must  have  done  for 
want  of  meat,  I  certainly  should  have  taken 
Mr.  Melllsh. 

Would  you  at  the  victualling-office  renew  a 
contract  with  a  man  who,  under  a  prosecution 
ordered  by  the  victualling  office,  had  been  con- 
victed?— Certainly  I  should,  if  the  service 
would  have  suffered  by  not  accepting  him ;  if 
there  was  no  other  tenderer  but  himself,  the 
service  might  Have  suffered  for  want  of  flesh. 

Would  you  have  taken  any  means  of  adver- 
tising, or  otherwise,  to  have  got  proposals 
from  some  other  persons,  who  were  not  under 
that  predicament? — ^Not  af^r  public  adver- 
tisement for  a  week  or  a  fortnight  before :  I 
should  think  it  would  be  to  no  purpose ;  out 
if  there  had  any  other  persons  offered,  I 
should  have  proposed  to  have  taken  one, 
though  he  mignt  nave  been  something  higher 
in  his  demands  than  he. 

If  Mr.  MelHsh  had  been  excepted  in  the  ad-" 
vertisement,  as  a  person  with  whom  the  Hos- 
pital would  not  treat,  might  not  other  persons 
have  offered? — I  do  not  know  whetner  we 
might  not  look  upon  it  as  dangerous  to  say 
that  of  a  man  in  public  print. 

You  will  do  well  to  re-consider  the  nature 
of  the  question,  and  the  answer  you  have 
given  the  question ;  whether,  if  you  had  ex- 
cepted by  name  this  Mr.  Mellish,  as  a  person 
you  did  not  choose  to  deal  with,  other  con- 
tractors might  not  be  expected  ? — I  cannot  say' 
as  to  that  question  f  if^  no  other  contractor 
tendered,  in  consequence  of  a  general  adver- 
tisement^ I  should  not  have  thought  of  adver- 
tising again. 

I  ask  you,  if  you  had  advertised  with  a  spe- 
cial exception  of  Mr.  Mellish,  whether  some. 


143} 


18  GiSORGE  lit.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thmas  BaiOie^         [144 


otliier  persons  voi^t  not  have  offered  ? — ^No 
l^h  exception  has  ever  heen  made  dunng  my 
tune. 

You  are  a  commissioner  of  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital ? — ^Yes,  and  of  the  navy^ 

)iow  came  you  not  to  make  it  the  secon4 
time? — Because  I  apprehend  the  Hospital 
wpuld  have  suffered  for  want  of  flesh. 

Do  you  apprehend  then  that  there  is  but 
one  person  m.  this  great  metropolis  that  is  ca- 
pable of  contracting  with  the  Hospital  for 
nveat? — It  was  evident  there  was  not;  for  no- 
body tendered  but  the  father,  or  uncle,  and 
son,  I  don't  know  which. 

Did  you  make  the  trial,  by  excepting  Mel- 
lish,  wnether  any  body  else  would  offer? — 
When  it  was  published,  nobody  tendered  but 
the  two  Mellisnes. 

Do  you  really  believe  that  there  was  no 
6ther  person  in  the  city  of  London  capable  of 
undertaking  the  contract  but  Mr.  ISfellish  ? — 
tt  appears  to  me  firom  consequences,  that  no- 
body cares  to  deal  with  us  hardly. 

Are  you  a  commissioner  of  the  navy  at  t^is 
time  ?— I  am. 

I  believe  you  cannot  be  so  easily  imposed 
Vpon  as  to  the  nature  and  quality  of  meat 
which  is  sent  to  the  victualling-office,  because 
they  are  delivered  alive ;  did  you  say  that? — I 
said  that. 

Whether  any  man  that  is  not  accustomed 
to  look  at  beasts,  and  to  know  the  quality  of 
them,  may  not  be  exceedingly  imposed  upon 
in  beasts  alive  ?  I  have  always  understood  so, 
but  it  may  be  otherwise,  perhaps  ? — We  have 

E roper  officers,  an  experienced  master  butcher, 
esides  other  officers,  to  view  the  beasts  be- 
fore we  suffer  them  to  be  killed.  The  concern 
is  very  great  in  the  victualling-office ;  there 
^  are  4  or  5,0Q0  oxen  killed  in  a  winter ;  they 
4re  drove  into  the  office  alive;  they  stand 
tliere  24  hours  to  cool ;  they  are  then  examin- 
ed.by  a  master  butcher,  and  by  tlie  office^  of 
the  cutting-house ;  and  then  if  the  master 
butcher  and  the  officer  of  the  cutting-house 
approve,  they  kill  the  beasts;  those  they  do 
not  approve  of  are  not  taken;  after  they  are 
killeOy  they  are  cut  up;   ^he  four  quarters  are 

Kinto  a  scale,  'md  if  they  don*t  weigh  seven 
dred  weight,  we  don't  take  them. 

If  no  person  ofifered  but  Mr.  Mellish,  could 
they  not  have  entered  into  ^  contract  for  a 
shorter  ti^ie,  and  so  have  got  another  contrac- 
tpr  for  the  remainder  of  the  year  ? — ^I'he  board 
were  of  opinion  that  it  would  be  best  to  con- 
tract for  a  whole  year,  for  fear  provisions  sliould 
be  dearer;  that  was  the  reason  of  contracting 
for  a  year;  or  else,  generally,  the  conjtract  is 
for  six  months. 

Do  you,  as  a  director  of  Greenwich  Hospi- 

a  recollect  what  number  of  men  are  victual- 
there?--*!  believf  about  2,000,  but  I  can- 
oot  say. 

Yctu  don't  know,  do  you,  that  one  half  of 
them  are  paid  money  instead  of  having  previ- 
aions?-^!  doa't  know  the  nupber. 
In  your  advertisement  fpr  Qreenwid)  H)o4" 


1 


pita],  what  time  do  you  give  for  delivering  ii| 
of  proposals? — ^The  secretary  of  the  Hospital 
can  tell  the  time  best. 

What  time  do  they  give  at  the  victuallings 
office  ?^-Generally  three  weeks  an  advertise- 
ment for  a  certain  number  of  oxen,  2  or  3,000 
to  be  killed  at  such  a  time. 

I  understand  you  that  the  reason  you 
thought  it  was  allowable  to  renew  the  contract 
with  a  man  that  had  been  psoved  tp  be  guilty 
of  a  fraud  was,  that  there  was  no  other  person 
offered,  and  it  might  be  necessary  for  the  ser- 
vice to  deal  with  that  man,  because  no  other 
offered? — Yes. 

And  you  ^so  said,  if  I  don't  mistake,  that 
you  behoved  no  other  person  would  have  offer- 
ed, but  Mr.  Mellish,  if  the  advertisement  had 
been  issued? — ^Nobody  else  had  tendered  to 
serve  the  Hospital  for  a  considerable  time. 

Mr.  Mellisn  is  the  contracting  butcher  for 
the  navy  too,  I  believe? — ^Yes,  he  isgenerally, 
but  not  always. 

You  can  nnd  somebody  else  for  th^  navv? 
--Sometimes ;  but,  in  general,  he  and  his  fau- 
mily  have  been  the  contractors. 

You  have  also  said,  as  I  understand,  tha}, 
though  you  had  fouud  tliat  this  man  had  bcea 
guilty,  or  should  be  suilty,  of  a  breach  of  con- 
tract, that  you  would  be  obliged  to  take  firom 
him  because  nobody  ebe  tendered? — ^Wq 
could  not  of  a  private  butcher  find  meat  suffi* 
cient  to  feed  2,000  men,  therefore  it  was  fof 
the  benefit  of  the  service :  I  did  not  say  hf 
was  the  only  person  did  offer. 

Has  any  attempt  been  made  to  find  aaj^ 
other  ? — By  public  advertisement. 

Any  othier  way  ? — I  know  of  no  other. 

With  regard  to .  the  complaints  that  haa^ 
been  made,  I  don't  mean  by  ai^  individual, 
captain  Baillie,  relative  to  the  victualling-i 
office,  that  Greenwich  liospital  has  nothing 
to  do  with :  have  you  had  no  complaints  of  the 
captains  of  the  navy,  relative  to  the  victual* 
ling.office  ? — There  ever  has  been  partial  comr 
plauits  while  I  was  a  commissioner  of  the  vic- 
tualling ;  since  which^  I  have  heard  of  none^ 
but  the  partial  complaints. 

Explain  what  you  mean  by  partial  com^ 
plaints. — I  mean  of  a  cask  of  beef  turning  out 
Dad,  or  such  a.  thing,  there  can  be  no  bulR>eef 
with  us. 

Has  there  not  been  general  complaintf 
s^gainst  the  provisions  flu-nished  by  Mr.  MeU 
lish,  from  the  captains  of  the  navy  at  Ply* 
mouth? — ^Not  that  I  know  of,  I  am  not  ^ 
commissioner  of  the  victualling. 

The  Earl  q{ Sandwich,  Do  you  know  whether 
last  year,  when  the  contractor  at  Plymouth  had 
refused  to  fulfil  his  contract,  Mr.  Mellish  was 
not  called  upon,  and  went  down,  and  was  the 
only  man  that  could  supply  the  fleet? — I  heard 
so;  your  lordship  knows  I  am  not  at  the  vic- 
tualling board. 

Is  not  Mr.  Mellish  one  of  the  largest,  per- 
haps the  ereatest  dealer  in  live  cattle  in  ^ig- 
land? — ^We  all  look  upon  him  to  be  the  greaV 
est  dealer  m  live  cattle. 


145]        rapecHng  the  Rftyal  Hospital  at  Crreetimch.        A.  D.  1778. 


[146 


Is  not  the  person  who  has  the  most  of  it  in 

fab  possession,  more  likely  to  serve  you  well, 

than  a  person  who  is  not  so  largely  concerned? 

—Undoubtedly. 

Do  you  imag^e,  that,  if  during  the  prosecu- 
tioD  that  this  Mr.  Mellish  was  under^  there 
had  been  an  aikertisement  for  other  contracts, 
^fliM«ng  Mr.  Melii&l],  o^ered,  would  that 
hare  prevented  any  other  contractors  offering  ? 
—I  cannot  answer  for  that,  because  we  have 
faad  public  advertisements,  and  no  butchers 
tendered  to  serve  us. 

Do  you  imagine,  that  if  any  other  person 
had  been  commissioned  with  an  advance  of 
public  money,  and  to  have  gone  to  Smithfield 
and  boi^t  up  100,  or  200  txead  of  cattle,  as 
Tou  bad  wanted,  don't  you  think  that  would 
be  a  means  of  flumishingthe  Hospital  as  cheap 
as  Mr.  Mellish  ? — ^I  cannot  say  but  it  would. 

I  understand  you  are  one  ot  the  directors  of 
Greenwich  Hospital? — Yes. 

As  sudh,  whether,  when  it  appeared  by  the 
ver^ct  given,  that  fraud  had  been  committed 
in  this  contract,  you  thought  yourself,  as  one 
of  the  directors,  not  bound  to  endeavour  that 
the  like  fraud  should  not  be  committed  again? 
^As  tbe  Hospital  was  in  immediate  want  of 
meat  for  a  vast  number  of  men,  it  did  not 
strike  me,  the  method  the  noble  lord  has 
pomted  out  now,  nor  do  I  know  whether  it 
was  practicable.  ' 

As  a  public  man,  did  not  you  find  yourself 
hound  to  prevent  fimids  from  being  commit- 
ted? Did  you  take  care  to  prevent  such  fraud, 
when  you  made  this  contract  with  Mr.  Mel- 
lish ?->If  the  officers  do  their  duty,  who  are 
the  receiving  officers*  at  the  Hospital,  no  such 
frauds  coula  have  happened,  and  had  the 
hoard  of  directors  been  acquainted  with  it  in 
the  first  instance  when  it  happened,  we  should 
have  prevented  it  in  future. 

The  board  of  directors  knew  at  that  time 
that  such  verdict  had  been  given,  and  those 
fiauds  proved,  my  question  is,  whether  upon 
your  engagement  with  Mir.  Mellish,  any  extra- 
ordinary caution  was  taken  to  prevent  simitar 
frauds  again  ? — No  other  than  a  public  adver- 
tisement, as  I  said  before. 

Whether  or  not  there  were  not  abuses  firom 
Plymouth,  in  regard  to  the  provisions  ?  I  ap- 
prehend that  your  answer  was,  that  you  did 
pot  know  that  there  was,  but  there  was  nobody 
ui  that  part  of  the  world  who  would  undertake 
that  contract  but  Mr.  Mellish ;  as  you  have 
said  that,  I  ask  if  there  was  not  another  per- 
son that  undertook  the  contract  for  the  whole 
of  sir  Edward  Hawke*s  fleet?— I  have  told 
your  k>rdship,  tliat  I  don't  know  any  thing  of 
It,  of  my  own  knowledge. 
,  Whether  Mr.  Peter  Mellish,  senior  or  iu- 
oior,  are  really  the  same  persons  as  to  trade ; 
axe  they  partners,  or  concerned  with  one  ano- 

^?— I  don't  know;    there  was  the  father, 

«*K  ^n,and  the  uncle,  I  think  of  that  name. 

'  *  Receifiag  officers,  steward  and  clcr)^  of  the 

JMI&.  Mr.  Godby  and  MauU.    Qrig.  £d,  i 

VOL.  XXI.   '  J 


•  Do  you  really  understand  any  reason  why 
there  should  be  two  proposals  come, in  for 
Greenwich  Hospital;  one  from  Peter,  senior, 
the  other  junior? — It  is  a  common  thing  for 
contractors  to  get  a  person  to  tender  a  l^gcr 
price,  in  order  that  tne  other  may  have  it. 

Then  you  understand  that  the  offer  of  these 
two  gentlemen  to  Greenwich  Hospital  was  a 
collusion  ? — I  do. 

I  think  you  said  when  you  were  asked 
whether  Mr.  Mellish  was  not  so  large  a  dealer, 
relative  to  an  afiair  that  happened  at  Ply- 
mouth, that  there  never  was  another  man 
that  could  supply  the  navy:  you  were  asked 
whether  he  was  not  likely  to  serve  the  better 
for  dealing  more  largely,  than  a  small  dealer. 
I  ask  you  whether  there  may  be  great  incon- 
veniences arise,  for  letting  one  man  n\onopo- 
lize  all  the  contracts  of  government.^ — Mobt 
certainly. 

And  whether  it  might  not  be  much  better 
for  some  branches  of  government  to  exclude  a 
man  when  he  has  another  contract? — ^The  ser- 
vice must  be  distressed  perhaps,  without  they 
give  a  large  price,  and  even  then,  people  ten- 
der sometimes  that  are  not  equal  to  it,  and 
that  give  security. 

You  say,  one  man  monopolizing  the  whole 
is  a  great  inconvenience? — Certainly. 

Is  there  not  a  way  to  prevent  that  ? — ^In  a 
pubFic  board,  we  take  every  method  we  can  to 
prevent  it. 

You  took  no  method  to  prevent  it  ? — By  a 
public  advertisement ;  and  it  any  butcher  had 
been  sufficient  to  have  supplied  the  Hos- 
pital, I  should  have  thought  he  woulc^l  have 
offered. 

But  if  Mr.  Mellish  had  been  excepted  in  the 
advertisement? — ^The  board  were  of  opinion 
we  could  not  do  otherwise,  than  contract  with 
the  man  that  oflered ;  and  I  was  of  the  same 
opinion  with  the  board. 

You  have  said,  that  if  this  matter  had  been 
communicated  sooner  to  the  directors,  that 
they  would  have  put  a  stop  to  tliis;  what 
steps  would  they  have  taken,  different  from 
those  they  did,  when  the  man  was  convicted  ? 
— ^They  would,  I  apprehend,  have  prosecuted 
the  butcher  immeuiately,  upon  the  first  com- 
plaint. 

He  was  prosecuted. — I  did  not,  for  mj;  own 
part,  know  of  the  complaint  till  a  year  after. 

But  when  he  was  prosecuted  and  convicted, 
what  steps  did  the  court  of  directors  then  take, 
to  prevent  the'Uke  thing  happening  again?—* 
All  they  did  was,  making  a  public  advertise- 
ment. 

Was  that  anjT  thing  different  from  what 
they  had  done  before? — It  was  not. 

You  know  there  is  a  large  tjuantity  comes 
to  the  spring  markets,  at  this  time  of  the  year, 
whether  t|)6t  is  not  tlie  kind  of  cattle  that 
would  come  within  the  price  for  furnishing 
the  navy,  and  for  furnishing  Greenwich  Hos 
pital  ? — Not  for  the  navy. 

Would  it  not  for  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — I 
apprehend  it  might  for  Greenwich  Hospital,  I 


147] 


18  GEORGE  III. 


don't  know  that  they  are  confined  to  weight 
there. 

As  you  have  had  experience  in  this  matter, 
I  ask  you  for  information,  whether  you  ever 
knew  a  man  convicted  before  Mr.  MelUsh, 
upon  so  notorious  a  breach  of  contract,  as  sup^ 
plying  bull-beef,  when  his  contract  was  for 

food  fat  ox  beef ?— Nothing  of  that  kind  has 
appened  in  mv  time, 
lou  appear  here  in  a  double  capacity ;  you 
arc  a  commissioner  of  the  navy,  and  also  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  ? — A  director  of  Green- 
wich Hospital. 

As  a  director  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  do  you 
believe,  up^n  your  oath,  that  there  are  not  a 
hundred  butchers,  that  could  supply  Green- 
wich Hospital?  What  quantity  of  meat  is  eat 
at  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — I  aon*t  know  the 
quantity. 

Do  you  think  there  may  be  two  beasts' in  a 
week  ? — I  can't  speak  to  that;  there  are  offi- 
cers here  can  tell  you  the  exact  quantity. 
Who  can  inform  mc  of  that? — The  steward. 

[Mr.  Marsh  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Godby  called  in. 

You  are  steward  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  I 
believe  ? — ^I  am. 

What  is  the  quantity  of  meat  consumed  in 
the  Hospital  ?— Ahout  860lb.  a  day. 

How  many  oxen  is  that  in  a  week  ? — Three 
I  believe. 

Do  you'  believe,  upon  your  oath,  that  there 
are  not  many  butchers  that  could  undertake 
that  contract  ? — ^I  believe  there  are  some,  be- 
cause there  formerly  was  a  butcher  of  Green- 
wich offered  to  serve  Greenwich  Hospital,  and 
to  the  best  of  my  memory,  his  price  was  two 
guineas  a  hundred  weight,  which  would  be 
ftbput  6  or  700/.  a  year,  I  speak  at  a  guess, 
Hibre  than  it  is  at  present 

Must  not  he  be  a  poor  butcher  that  could 
not  supply  three  oxen  a  week  ? — At  an  exor- 
bitant price  no  doubt  they  could. 

Why  at  an  exorbitant  price  ? — A  butcher  of 
Greenwich,  who  is  now  present,  served  Green- 
wich Hospital  at  an  exorbitant  price,  and  lost 
money  by  it. 

Did  you  ever  hear  that  there  was  any  at- 
tempt made  to  get  another  butcher  to  bid 
Against  Mellish? — I  don't  know  that  there 
was.  [Mr.  Godby  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Manh  called  in  again. 

Whether  you  remember  upon  the  proposing 
to  contract  with  Mr.  Mellish,  captain  Bmllie's 
objecting  to  it  ? — ^I  don't     . 

Do  you  not  recollect  that  circumstance  that 
has  been  mentioned  by  captain  Baillie,  of 
yoitf  having  mentioned  the  case  of  an  hop 
contractor? — It  is  so  long  since,  and  I  am  at 
the  head  of  so  important  a  branch  of  business, 
that  I  cannot  recollect  sufficient  to  speak  to 
that ;  but  if  captain  Baillie  says  I  did  say  so,  I 
dare  say  I  did. 

I  mentioned  the  circumstance  of  the  hop 
contractor,  to  bring  to  your  memoiy  captain 


The  Case  nf  Captain  Thoma*  SaHlief  [14S 

Baillie's  objectioli  to  Mr.  "Mellish's  having  the 
contract — I  don't  recollect  that;  the  whol^ 
hoixd  of  directors  would  have  wished  for  any 
other  contractor. 

I  understood  from  the  minutes,  that  the 
governor  laid  these  affidavits  of  the  discovery 
of  the  bull  beef  before  the  board  of  directors  ? 
— There  were  no  other  tenderers. 

You  are  a  director  of  Greenwich  Hospital, 
and  have  been  a  long  time  in  the  business  i 
if  the  contract  had  been  advertised,  with  an 
exception  to  Mr.  Mellish's  serving  the  Hos- 
pital, do  you  imagine  that  the  Hospital  would 
not  have  immediately  been  supplied  by  any 
person,  as  well  as  they  were  by  Mr.  Mellish  } 
1  have  already  said,  from  what  happened,  I 
fear  not,  because  there  was  no  other  tenderer. 
But  there  was  no  exception  made  to  Mr. 
Mellish  in  your  advertisement  ?— There  was 
not. 

If  anv  exception  had  been  made  to  them 
(the  Mellishes)  in  your  advertisement,  that 
the  contract  would  not  be  entered  into  with 
them,  whether  you  do  not  imagine  there 
would  have  been  immediately  proposals  made, 
by  which  the  Hospital  wouM  have  been  as 
well  supplied  as  it  was  by  them  ? — ^I  cannot 
speak  to  that. 

I  ask  your  opinion;  do  you  believe  this 
kii^dom  would  not  have  produced  a  person 
or  persons,  who  would  maKo  an  offer  to  sop- 
ply  Greenwich  Hospiul  with  beef  as  well 
as  Mr.  Mellish,  knowing  that  he  was  not  to 
be  treated  with  ?— I  should  suppose,  as  it  wi^ 
open  to  them,  they  might  have  tendered  if 
they  pleased. 

Your  opinion  seems  so  vague?— It  is  an 
honest  opmion  from  my  heart,  and  upon  mj 
oath.  [Mr.  Marsh  withdrew.] 

Captain  Allmright  called  in. 

Inform  the  Comnuttee  of  what  you  know 
of  there  having  been  any  mismanagement  in 
Greenwich  Hospital,  and  what  complaints  re- 
specting the  provisions  have  been  made  to 
tne  court  of  mrectors,  or  to  the  council  ?— I 
remember  many  complaints  being  made;  I 
have  been  sent  at  times  by  the  lieutenant  go- 
vernor Baillie  into  the  kitchen,  to  sec  the  re- 
ceipt of  meat,  and  to  look  at  the  quality ;  thcrt 
have  been  compbdnts,  and  there  have  been 
complaints  in  tide  hall  sometimes :  I  once  ob- 
jected to  some  meat  being  received,  because  it 
was  contrary  to  the  contract;  the  contract 
expresses,  that  the  meat  shall  be  received  in 
whole  quarters,  except  some  part  of  the  neck 
taken  off,  and  the  legs  and  shms  taken  away ; 
I  found  there  was  a  practice  of  bringing  the 
beef  into  the  Hospital,  with  the  prime  parts 
cut  out  of  the  quarters ;  the  chines,  and  great 
part  of  the  roasting  pieces  were  taken  from  it ; 
I  had  objected  to  tnat,  and  indeed,  once  in 
particular,  I  objected  to  it  to  the  steward. 
The  steward  paid  verylittie  attention  to  my 
objection ;  I  went  to  the  heutenant  eovcmor 
as  I  had  received  my  orders  from  him,  and 
told  him  thai  ther<f  WIS  little  attontioQ  p» 


ttS]        retpecAig  the  Royal  Ho^al  at  GrStnnM. .       A.  D«  1778. 


[150 


t»it;ttidtl]9lthe  vtewttd  had  received  such 

kef.  The  lieutenant   govemor,   in   oonae* 

fMDce  of  that,  ordered  me  to  go  back  min 

atd  call  a  survey  upon  it,  to  send  for  the  Seu- 

tessnt  of  the  week,  and  with  the  clerk  of  the 

diemie,  and  his  ckark,  to  survey  that  meat,  to 

oil  far  the  contract,  and  see  wnether  that  did 

not  foittd  the  receiving  such  meat.    I  did  so, 

1  ifere  my  opinion,  the  lieutenant  of  the  week 

^peed  in  -opinion  with  me;   I  asked  the 

steward's  opmion,    the  steward  would  not 

give  his  opinion ;  I  desired  him  to  go  with  me 

to  the  lieutenant  governor ;  he  absolutely  re- 

iiind  it,  and  told  me,  that  1  had  given  my 

opinion  unasked ;  that  he  did  not  send  for  me 

to  give  my  opinion ;  that  it  was  his  business 

toicad  for  me,  and  not  mine  to  send  to  him. 

I  don't  want  you  to  enter  into  particulars ; 
but,  in  general,  have  you  often  observed  that 
there  has  been  bad  meat  delivered  to  the  men, 
nd  that  there  have  been  compkupts  made  ? — 
Hiere  have  frequently. 

To  whom? — ^There  have  been  complaints 
mide  in  the  kitchen,  there  has  been  some 
eoBpliint  made,  I  recollect,  to  the  board  of 
Sectors. 

By  whom  ? — ^It  was  made  by  the  council ; 
Ivasnot  at  the  making  that  complaint*  but  I 
mat  the  council  when  we  Gomplainea  of  the 
dark  of  thedn^ue's  clerk,  who  had  received 
bid  vial,  and  I  never  remember  any  official 
Ittwers  inm  the  board  of  directors. 

Had  jmi  any  redress  ?-*!  don't  remember 
any  ofl&oal  answer,  nor  any  redress. 

The  Kof  Sandwich,  Wereyou present  when 
William  Fleoe's  evidence  was  taKen  down  ? — 
I  don't  recollect  that  I  was ;  I  was  present  at 
some;  I  recollect  that  Fleoe  did  not  attend  at 
&e  trial  at  Guildhall.  I  remember  he  was 
absent  then.      [Captain  Allwright  withdrew.] 

lieutenant  Kerr  called  in. 

Oive  an  account  to  the  Commitlee  of  what 
you  know  of  any  complaint   having  been 
aade  at  Greenwich  Hospital  relative  to  provi- 
sions in  general,  and  what  steps  have  been 
taken  in  consequence  of  it  f — When  I  first 
came  into  the  Hospitid,  there  was  a  complaint 
thtt  the  men  baa  been  served  with  shins, 
Mcks,  and  legs  of  beef;  I  acquainted  lieut^ 
itaot  governor  Boys  of  it;  the  lieutenant  gp- 
^WQor  complained  to  the  board  of  directors. 
Th^  immediately  sent  for  the  butcher ;  the 
inest  wad  broii^ht,  the  legs,  shins,  and  necks, 
and  shewn  to  than,  and  that  was  redressea 
iBUnedistdy  upon  my  complaint  to  lieutenant 
govonor  Boys;  aAer  that  the  meat  still  conti- 
nned  to  be  complained  of.  Upon  my  being  upon 
^ty,  I  comphsned  often  to  lieutenant  Ver- 
ier fioys  of  it  of  the  smallness  of  the  pieces, 
^  of  the  raUier  blackness,  as  I  callea  it,  or 
badness  of  the  beef.    Mr.  Boys  often  ordered 
tiie  meat  to  be  delivered  to  the  contracting 
bttleber,  wfaicfa  vras  afterwards  complained  of 
•■ittspi:  th^  sud,  alW  the  meat  was  bdl- 
M,  it  flidbiMft  be  fetutned  to  the  butcher,  or 


he  make  amends  for  it ;  that  it  should  have 
been  complained  of  before  it  had  been  boiled, 
Upon  these  complaints,   I   myself  thought 
there  had  been  something  extraordinary  in  it ; 
the  meat,  when  it  came,  appeared  to  look  very 
well,  but  upon  being  boiled  in  the  copper,  it 
turned  out  so  bad,  as  I  being  often  upon  duty 
had  occasion  to  see.    I  found  that  the  meat 
did  notv^tis  called  spend  so  well,  that  it 
did  not  look  so  well,  and  did  not  seem  to  hang 
together;    I    thought  there  was  something 
wrong  when  I  was  upon  duty ;  I  had  great 
reason  to  suspect  the  outchcr's  man  guilty  of 
a  fraud ;  and  as  I  had  often  occasion  to  go  to 
London,  I  frequently  saw  the  butcher's  man 
at  petty  ale-houses  on  the  road.    I  was  by  a 
shower  of  rain  forced  into  an  ale-hou3e  called 
the  Half-way-house ;  I  saw  the  butcher's  man 
selling  the  meat ;  the  woman  and  he  were 
disputmg  about  the  price,  whether  he  should 
have  three5>ence  or    two-^»ence  halfpenny 
a  pound.    I  sat  down,  and  heard  the  conver*- 
aation  go  on ;  I  found  th^e  was  some  fraud; 
I  told  nobody  of  it,  but  I  was  much  upon  my 
gu«d,  still  finding  the  meat,  during  a  space 
of  time,  to  be  veiy  short,  and  giving  the  men, 
when  ttiey  complained,  choice  pieces  did  not 
seem  to  sa^ty  them;   I  complained  many 
times  to  lieutenant  governor  ooys,  and  he 
could  not  tell  what  to  do;  I  then  ordered  the 
boatswain  (I  cannot  recollect  his  name  now) 
to  be  upon  hb  guard,  for  I  told  him  tiiat  I 
thought  there  was  a  firaud ;  he  detected  the 
butcher's  man  in  a  leg  and  fore-quarter,  what 
they  call  a  jigget  df  mutton,  a  shoulder  of 
mutton,  and  part  of  a  breast,  to  the  amount 
of  40  or  45  pounds ;  it  was  brought  to  the 
council ;  the  butcher's  man  told  the  counci! 
that  it  was  the  surplus  meat  belonging  to  his 
master ;  he  made  it  appear  to  the  gentlemen 
of  the  ooundl,  I  believe  then,  that  it  was  sur- 
plus meat  of  hb  master.    I  myself,  in  ray  opi- 
nk>n  (if  I  may  use  that  expression)  thought  it 
was  not,  but  I  could  not  prove  that  it  was  not 
so :  the  meat  was  ordered  to  be  eiven  him ; 
I  thought  mvself  hurt,  and  I  let  it  drop  for  m 
months.    I  had  some  business  callea  me  to 
town ;  as  I  was  coming  through  Kent-street, 
I  saw  the  butcher  very  drunk  in  an  ale-house, 
I  did  not  go  in  there  to  examine,  but  when  I 
came  to  enquire,  I  told  the  blue-frock  men^- 
but  I  am  going  too  fast— on  the  Monday  I 
think  that  I  came  on  duty,  I  said,  Emanuel 
Tucker,  I  am  come  upon  duty,  if  you  don't 
tell  your  master  to  send  proper  meat,  I  told 
him  by  the  blessed  name  of  God.  that  I  would 
complain  to  the  directors,  and  nave  him  pu- 
nished, and  the  contract  taken  from  him ;  he 
said  the  meat  was  very  good.    The  meat  was 
oomplahied  of,  I  tbdnk  it  was  the  Thursday 
following.    I  will  not  be  positive  to  the  im- 
mediate day,  but  it  was  the  beef  day :   I  went 
to  Mr.  Boys ;  three  pieces  had  been  carried 
to  the  steward's  office ;  it  was  thought  proper, 
because  the  meat  had  been  boiled;  they  were 
very  bad,  and  I  don't  believe  the  pieces  when 
cut  up  weighed  xn»ra  than  five  or  six  ounces 


151J 


18  GEORGE  IIL  The  Case  of  Captain  Thmas  BailSe^         [153 


for  a  man ;  upon  this  Mr.  Boys  said  he  could 
not  tell  what  to  do  in  it 

You  need  not  be  so  very  particular  in  all 
this  description,  only  acquaint  the  Committee^ 
whether  there  have  not  upon  the  whole  been 
complaints?— Yes,  I  detected  the  butcher's 
man  in  stealing  the  meat;  he  was  tried  and 
transported. 

How  long  was  it  from  the  time  that  you 
first  suspected  these  frauds  till  the  time  you 
made  tne  complaint  ? — There  were  manv 
times  complaints,  and  many  times  redressed, 
bv  giving  the  men  that  complained  the 
choicest  pieces,  and  every  pains  was  taken  in 
■the  office  to  give  the  men  satisfaction. 

You  said  you  had  reason  to  think  that  there 
were  frauds  committed  by  the  butcher  from 
some  conversation  yoii  heard  at  an  ale-house, 
how  long  was  it  after  that  when  you  made 
the  coniplaint  ? — I  was  suspicious  of  the  fraud 
long  before^  from  the  badness  of  the  meat,  the 
meat  being  boiled  and  not  bavins  a  proper 
quantity  on  the  bohes ;  I  was  called  the  bone- 
carrier  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  because  I  de- 
tected the  bones  which  he  had  been  serving. 
How  long  afler  you  had  these  suspicions 
wasitbeforeyou  made  a  complaint?— Tne  first 
complaint  that  I  made  was  of  the  meat ;  it 
was  a  year  and  a  half,  I  b€!lieve^^)efore  I  could 
be  certain  to  make  any  complaint  of  that 
fraud. 

Then  it  was  a  year  and  a  half  af^r  you 
had  suspicions  before  you  made  a  complaint  ? 
.  — ^Yes. 

Whdm  did  you  tnakc  that  complaint  to?— I 
never  made  any  complaint  to  any  body,  be- 
cause I  could  not  ascertain  it.  The  com- 
Slainl  that  I  made  was  of  the  beef  at  different 
ays,  that  to  the  lieutenant  governor,  which 
was  redressed  immediately  by  the  lieutenant 
■  governor's  orders ;  but  the  great  complaint  I 
never  made  till  the  Monday  of  the  week  the 
butcher  was  detected;  I  told  one  Jonathan 
Fell,  you  blue  frock  men  are  all  parties  of  this 
fraud,  and  I  9)iall,  I  hope,  see  some  of  you 
turned  out ;  the  man,  conscious  of  the  fraud, 
wrote  an  anonymous  letter  to  the  lieutenant 
governor,  that  he  would  shew  him  where  the 
meat  was  secreted. 

How  do  you  know  that  he  did  write  it  > — ^I 
hear^  the  man  confess  that  he  did  dictate  that 
letter  to  another;  I  asked  him  that  per- 
sonally ;  he  wrote  that  upon  my  saying  that 
I  had  them  now,  I  hope  I  shall  detect  you,  I 
hope  I  shall  have  the  pleasure  to  see  you 
turned  out,  for  you  must  be  concerned  in  this 
fraud.  I  did  not  make  a  complaint,  because 
I  could  not  prove  it,  I  only  suspected  in  my 
self  that  there  was  a  fraud. 

Did  you  suggest  these  suspicions  to  any 
body? — I  never  did  to  any  one  person  in  the 
world  till  afterwards. 

Whether  you  don't  think  it  extremely  easy, 
for  a  contracting  butcher,  in  the  situation  Mr. 
Mellish  was,  to  commit  ereat  frauds,  without 
it  being  in  the  power  of^people  of  detecting 
htm,  and  to  bfiftg  proof  of  it  ^— I  hare  been 


in  the  kitchen,  luive  seen  the  meat  received, 
and  received  with  great  care^  but  ^who  can 
withstand  an  artful  cunning  fellow,  afier  the 
officer  had  received  it,  then  we  went  in  aini 
detectjed  him ;  if  we  had  not  gone  in  as  we 
did,  it  would  not  have  been  in  the  power  or 
man  to  detect  him,  because  he  said  it  was  the 
surplus  meat;  I  enauired,  and  found,  that 
there  was  a  pound  and  an  luilf,  or  two  pounds 
of  surplus  meat,  therefore  if  he  had  six^ 
pounds,  he  must  have  stole  it. 

Then  do  you  think  it  extremely  difficult  to 
detect  firauds  in  the  butcher  ?^— Certainly. 

It  is  not  the  butcher,  but  the  butcher's  man  ' 
you  allude  to  ?— Yes. 

And  it  is  not  the  butcher  himself,  but  his 
man,  that  all  this  transaction  related  to  ? — 
Yes. 

But  do  ^ou  think  it  easy  for  the  contracting 
butcher  himself,  to  carry  on  frauds  without 
being  detected  ?— I  cannot  think  it  can,  be* 
cause  there  is  the  steward  and  so  many  other 
officers  all  there,  and  it  is  impossible  for  me 
to  think  that  any  fraud  can  t>e  committed; 
the  meat  is  seen  and  examined,  if  they  com* 
mit  it,  they  must  be  all  concerned. 

Whether  you  imaeine,  that  the  firaud  of 
selling  bull  beef,  and  bull-s^  beef,  was  car* 
ried  on  for  a  considerable,  time,  before  it  was 
discovered  ? — Yes,  I  think  it  was ;  but  I  can- 
not see  how  that  can  be,  when  the  meat  is 
served  in,  so  I  havi;  said  several  times,  tiutt  I 
really  believe  this  is  bull  beef,  but  I  could  not 
ascertain  that  it  was ;  I  have  saki  oflen  that  I 
believed  it  was  so. 

Am  I  to  understand,  that  you  believe  that 
there  were  abuses  in  the  contract  from  the 
butcher  himself,  a  long  time  before  it  was  de- 
tected ?— I  do  believe  that  there  was,  to  the 
best  of  my  knowledge,  there  has  been  meat 
returned,  and  very  bad. 

Did  any  of  the  pensioners  ever  complain 
that  the  beef  was  very  tough  ?— They  have ; 
that  complaint  has  been,  and  I  have  acauunt- 
ed  the  heutenant  governor  of  it,  ana  they 
have  had  a  choice  piece  the  nextdayi  and 
eveiy  step  was  l^en  to  regulate  it 

Was  there  an^r  particular  reason  ever  asked, 
after  the  complaint  was  first  made,  why  it  was 
not  lodged  with  the  proper  officers,  the  direo- 
tors;  was  there  any  mtimidation? — Never, 
none  to  my  knowledge. 

[lieutenant  Kerr  withdrew.] 

Lieutenant  Smith  called  in. 

Give  an  account  to  the  committee,  of  what 
you  know  relative  to  the  mismanagement  of 
the  Hospital,  in  respect  to  the  provisions? — I 
have  known  very  freouent  reason  to  complain 
of  the  beef  particularly,  and  many  complaints 
were  made  to  my  superior  <^cers;  I  did 
make  it  to  sir  Charles  Iiardy ;  I  have  made  it 
repeatedly  to  Mr.  Baillie ;  I  not  only  did  it 
from  complaints  of  the  men,  but  have  done  it 
of  my  own  accord;  because  there  isalettar 
from  the  lords  of  the  Admiral^,  dated  soma 
years  bsok^  wherein  the  officers  in  general  am 


i5S]        rapeciing  ihe  Rot^l  Ho$pii4d  iU  Oteimoich* .       A.  D.  1778. 


[iM 


reflected  upon  for  sufiering  abuses,  when  they, 
knew  them  to  exist ;    in  consequence  of  that 
letter,  I  thought  it  my  duty  to  inform  my  su- 
perior officers  of  such  abuses.     One  day  in 
particular,  in  which  I  was  happy  to  find  the 
iKitcher  prosecuted  tor  bad  meat>  which  I  dis- 
covered (Ml'.  Everest  called  to  tell  me  of  it) 
as  the  meat  was  going  forward,  without  any 
complaint  being  nuide  to  me  by  any  of  the 
pensioners ;   I  stopped  it,  havine  seen  before 
bull  beef  boiled,  which  I  had  seen  in  the 
eountiy  aven  away  by  noblemen :  I  took  no 
notice  of  the  first,  second,  or  third  dishes,  but 
afterwards  I  stopped  one  dish,  and  sent  ^em 
all  to  ^e  lieutenant  governor ;  at  that  time 
captain  Clements  did  not  attend  so  much  to 
hb  duty,  therefore  I  did  not  trouble  him ;  I 
sent  dish  after  dish  to  captain  Baillie. 

Do  you  recollect  any  tning  about  bad  veal  ? 
— Certainly  I  do ;  the  complaint  was  made 
very  properly,  as  I  thought,  by  the  infirmary 
gentlemen ;  I  believe  Dr.  Hossack  and  Mr. 
Focbck,  the  dispenser,  were  the  two  principal 
people  that  brought  it  to  light ;  that  upon  its 
Dcing  examined,  we  all  declared  it  to  be  bad. 
Was  complaint  made  of  it  ?^There  was. 
Whom  to  P— First  of  all  to  the  council,  after 
that  it  was  laid  before  the  board  of  directors, 
to  that  we  never  had  any  answer. 

Was  it  ever  redressed  ?—  I  don't  know  whe- 
ther it  was,  for  I  heard  nothing  about  it  after- 
wards. 

Pray  who  receives  the  meat  in  the  kitchens 
from  the  butcher  ? — The  steward  and  the  clerk 
of  the  cheque  are  the  proper  officers  to  receive 
it,  but  it  is  frequently  left  to  their  deputies, 
who,  I  suppose,  are  very  worthy  people  for 
what  I  know,  I  may  be  deceived. 

It  is  the  dut^  of  some  of  the  officers  to 
attOMi  in  the  kitchen? — The  commissioned 
officers  take  it  in  turn  to  attend  in  the  kitchen, 
and  if  they  see  any  abusiss  or  frauds,  they  are 
to  make  it  known. 

Were  you  ever  obstructed  in  it? — ^No, 
never. 

Is  "bull  beef  easily  to  be  distinguished  from 
ox  beef  after  it  is  dressed  ? — Yes,  I  think  so ; 
I  had  frequently  seen  bad  beef;  and  after- 
wards it  appeared  before  lord  Mansfield,  that 
the  man  was  convicted  upon  that  very  action 
jis  bull  beef;  my  own  suggestion  was,  because 
it  was  shrivelled  up,  and  appeared  very  black, 
and  not  to  be  full  weisht  it  it  was  weighed. 
'  Was  this  discovered  frequently  ? — ^I  cannot 
sav  that,  I  only  discovered  of  my  own  accord, 
fAa  a  complaint  from  a  pensioner. 

[Lieulen^t  Smith  withdrew.] 


Tkur^dtty,  March  18,  1779. 

Mr.  Alexander  Moore  called  in. 

What  are  you  in  Greenwich  Hospital? — 
Cook  of  one  part  of  it  at  present. 

How  long  have  you  been  in  the  Hospital  ? 
j— Since  September,  1774. 
L    Vi^  do  you  know  of  there  iiaving  been 


bad  provisions  served  to  the  Hospital  ?— When 
I  came  to  the  Hospital,  I  was  rather  amazed 
to  see  such  proviswns  served  to  the  Hospital, 
but  was  not  acquainted  with  the  contracts 
that  were  entered  into;  beii^  acquainted 
from  my  youth  in  breeding  and  feeding  cattl& 
I  was  acquainted  with  these  meats;  1  found 
them  to  be  nothing  but  bull's  fiesh  and  bull 
stags,  and  so  on,  and  mutton  in  the  turn 
much  the  same  as  ram,  and  ewe  mutton  espe* 
cially,  a  mixture  of  all  sorts. 

Was  this  only  occasionally  or  frequently^ 
^nerally  ? — ^All  the  time,  from  the  *^9th  of 
beptember,  1774,  to  the  1st  of  June,  1775,  I 
believe  certainly  there  was  not  a  lot  that  waa 
killed  real  ox,  or  wether  mutton. 

Do  you  mean  ^at  it  was  constantly  bad 
meat,  or  only  occasionally  ? — Every  day. 

What,  the  beef  and  the  mutton  both  ? — The 
pensioners  were  continually  grumbling ;  and 
It  was  so  bad,  that  at  that  time  of  day  we  re- 
ceived mc^e  meat  than  we  do  now,  because 
some  pensioners  are  gone  out  of  the  house. 

Did  you  complain  of  this  ? — I  did  not  k(iow 
what  the  contract  was ;  I  was  a  straneer ;  t 
did  not  know  any  thing  about  it;  I  was 
afraid.  The  contract  was  to  be  out  in  March ; 
the  people  murmured  a  good  deal;  they 
thought  some  other  butcher  would  have  it ; 
the  contract  was  expired,  and  a  fresh  contract 

fiven  to  Mr.  Mellish  again.  The  very  first 
ay  of  the  contract,  nothing  but  bull  beef 
came  for  that  day ;  so  it  went  on.  I  fre- 
quently complained  to  the  butcher's  men ;  I 
told  them  to  tell  their  master  the  meat  was 
not  fit  to  eat.  I  asked  him  next  day  what  the 
master  said ;  they  used  to  tell  me  the  master 
asked  who  enquired  after  it,  and  they  told 
him ;  the  answer  he  gave  to  the  servants  was. 
Never  mind  them,  they  don't  know  any  thing 
about  it.  I  found  it  not  bearable;  I  ac- 
quainted captain  Bsdllie,  the  lieutenant  go- 
vernor ;  I  told  him  there  were  iniquitous  af- 
fairs carrying  on  in  the  Hospital ;  I  enquired 
what  price  the  meat  was ;  ne  told  me  it  was 
then  near  a  groat  a  pound ;  the  contract  was 
for  ox  beef  and  ^etner  mutton  at  that  time ; 
from  that  ten  months^  Mr.  Mellish  had  very 
artfully  in  his  trade  killed  many  ewes^  beside 
rams  and  ram  stags,  which  is  generally  In 
breeding  of  sheep ;  a  farmer  wul  generally 
keep  tmrfy  or  forty  wether  lambs  uncut,  be- 
cause they  can  firequently  sell  them  for  a  good 
price;  if  they  don't  turn  out  well,  they  cut 
them,  which  are  not  so  good  as  wether 
Iambs,  nor  so  bad  as  rams ;  these  rams  aie 
not  known  very  well,  only  by  the  entrail 
parts,  and  chiefly  the  fat  of  them,  as  any  pear- 
son  that  is  acquainted  with  them  knows,  lies 
in  the  neck ;  those  animals  that  are  uncut  of 
all  kinds,  are  very  thick  in  the  fore  parts,  and 
are  very  easy  to  De  known  by  a  person  that  is 
any  judge  of  it. 

When  did  you  make  your  compl^t? — Oa 
the  1st  of  June,  1775,  the  meat  was  amazins 
bad ;  I  told  the  butdier's  man  that  morning  I 
would  not  take  it ;  he  was  in  a  g^e&t  kuny  to 


1551 


18  GSOflGE  in.         The  CUut  tf  Captain  Thonuu  BaiUkf         [156 


fetehthestenndlto  panit;  Mt.  Coaies,  the 
dark  of  Um  tbeque'»  assistant,  came  in,  looked 
at  the  beef, said  m  thoajriit  it  was  pretty  good; 
I  said  I  hoped  he  wouici  not  take  it,  tt  was 
ttotlung  but  bulPs  flesh.  The  steward,  Mr. 
Oodby,  came  in,  looked  at  it,  said  he  thought 
H  pretty  good.  Mr.  Coates  told  Mr.  Godby 
what  I  had  said ;  a  survey .  was  made  of  the 
meat ;  captain  Lyne  and  lieutenant  Bosson, 
came  to  survey  the  meat.  The  governor  was 
then  acquainted  with  it;  I  told  them  not  to 
cake  my  word  what  it  was,  but  send  for  any 
butcher  in  the  kingdom ;  and  if  it  was  not 
bulVs  flesh,  I  would  forfeit  my  life ;  however, 
the  gentlemen  went  to  the  steward's  house ; 
they  had  a  meeting,  and  the  steward  ac« 
quainted  sir  Charles  Hardy,  the  governor;  sir 
Charles  ordered  the  meat  to  be  boiled  that 
day,  and  it  was  boUed ;  the  gentlemto  then 
came  to  taste  of  It  afterwards ;  I  omitted  one 
thing  in  the  interim  of  that  time,  Mr.  Coates 
andMr.  Bdl,  the  steward's  clerk^  wanted  me 
to  drop  it,  aiMl  say  nothing  about  it  any  more ; 
they  would  see  it  lectifieci. 

Who  are  they  ? — One  is  clerk  assistant  to 
^le  chequ^  and  the  other  to  the  steward ;  I 
then  thou^t  I  was  wronging  my  own  con- 
adence ;  I  thought,  if  I  should  be  called  upon 
to  come,  I  was  not  satisfied  in  my  own  mmd. 
I  saved  some  pieces  of  that  meat  particularly, 
and  acquainted  the  lieutenant  governor  of  it, 
and  told  him  what  it  was ;  he  then,  I  suooose, 
acquainted  sir  Charles  Haidy ;  and  I  told  the 
'lieutenant  eovemor,  that  we  butcher's  ser- 
vants that  £y  hi^  said  they  were  Sony  thev 
ahouM  bring  Such  meat  down  to  Greenwich 
Hospital,  bt%  they  could  not  help  it,  it  was 
tibeir  mastei's  orders ;  t  asked  tnem  if  they 
'^rould  choose  to  say  ^t  before  the  lieutenant 
0)iveniQr,  or  any  justice  of  peace ;  they  jaid 
'Siey  were  willing  to  say  it  any  where;  they 
were  very  mtich  ashamed  to  bring  it  down. 

What  is  the  difference  of  the  price  of  the 
meat  that  was  furnished  for  ttat  ten  months, 
and  the  contract  price? — I  look  upon  it  that 
Imll  beef  in  any  part  of  the  country  is  not 
worth  above  three  half-pence  a  pound ;  Mr. 
Hellish  in  his  bunness,  I  look  upon  it,  might 
bar  it  alive  at  a  penny  a  poimd. 

You  made  your  complaint  you  say  on  the 
1st  iA  June  to  captain  Baillie } — ^Yes,  and  to 
the  proper  officers  of  the  Hospital. 

You  mentioned  that  Mr.  Godby's  clerk, 
and  the  clerk  of  the  cheque's  clerk  had  per- 
auaded  you  not  to  take  any  notice  of  it  ?— ics, 
that  vefy  mominc. 

Did  any  body  else  persuade  you  at  any  other 
time  not  to  take  any  notice  of  it  f— Yes,  after- 
wards, but  not  that  day. 

Give  an  account  of^tiurtP^^-Gn  the  9th  of 
Jnn^  1775,  nine  days  after  that  date,  Mr. 
Baillie  went  ud  with  captain  Allwright  to  Lon- 
don: two  of  tne  butcher's  men  met  captain 
*  Baillie  at  justice  PelTs,  in  Well-close  square ; 
they  were  willing  to  give  in  their  affidavits 
that  they  had.  fran  the  time  that  they  lived 
with  Mr.  MeOidi,  never  ataoytime  nought 


any  parcel  of  real  ox  beef  or  wether  mutton 
down  all  the  time  that  they  lived  with  Mn 
Mellish,  both  of  them. 

That  was  not  to  your  knowled^;  you  ifid 
not  hear  them  say  ixaX  ? — ^Yes,  I  did,  and  gave 
my  affidavit  to  the  same  on  the  same  day. 

It  is  no  matter 'what  they  said;  but  what 
did  you  say  ?  What  otjier  persons  endeavoured 
to  persuade  you  not  to  make  this  complaint 
known } — ^Afler  this  was  done,  upon  the  1 1th 
of  June,  which  to  the  best  of  my  remem- 
brance was  Sunday,  at  night  Mr.  Godby 
sent  for  me  to  his  house,  told  me  there  would 
be  some  enquiiy  upon  the  complaints  of  the 
meat,  beesea  that  I  would  not  say  that  any 
bull  beefnad  been  delivered  into  the  Hos- 
pital ;  I  told  him  my  conscience  cannot  do  it ; 
he  said  he  was  very  sorry  that  I  did  not  ac^ 
quaint  him  sooner;  that  he  would  not  have 
accepted  of  it ;  I  told  him  I  had  told  him 
enough  of  it  before. 

What  did  he  desire  you  to  do } — ^He  desired^ 
that  if  I  should  be  called^  to  say  that  there 
was  no  bull  beef  ever  deUvered  to  the  Hos- 
pital. 

Repeat  that  conversation  that  you  had  with 
Blr.  Godby  directiy  as  it  happened  in  mint  of 
timef — Upon  the  11th  of  June,  a  Sunday 
night,  Mr.  Godby  sent  for  me  to  his  own 
house,  and  in  his  own  parlour  he  told  me» 
that  there  would  be  some  enquiry  made  about 
the  meat;  he  hoped  I  would  not  say  any 
thing  that  there  had  been  bull  beef  de- 
live^  to  the  Hospital.  I  told  him  that  I 
certainly  could  not  deny  the  truth;  tiSat  I 
certainly  must  speak  the  truth ;  that  there 
had  becoi  all  the  time  I  had  been  there. 

What  did  Mr.  Godby  say  about  it?^Mr. 
Godby  did  not  say  any  thin^  i^her  about  it ; 
only  he  said,  if  I  nad  told  him  of  it  before,  he 
would  not  have  accepted  of  it;  I  repeated 
that  I  had  told  him  sevoal  times. 

And  had  you  in  fact  told  him  ? — ^I  did  on 
the.  1st  of  June,  and  told  him  it  had  been  so 
all  the  time  I  had  been  there. 

To  what  time  did  Mr.  Godby  refor,  when 
he  said  if  you  told  him  before ;  did  he  mean 
before  the  1st  of  June,  or  any  other  time?^- 
No  such  words  passed  as  tiiat 

What  did  you  understand  that  he  meant, 
when  he  said  he  wbhed  you  had  told  him  ao 
before? — ^I  cannot  tell  what  he  might  think 
when  he  said  that. 

Did  any  body  else  endeavour  to  persuade 
you  not  to  speak  about  it? — ^Yes,  upon  the 
ISth  or  ISth  of  June,  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  seM 
for  me  to  his  apartments,  and  had  a  good 
deal  of  conversation  about  the  meat,  and  said 
he  thought  that  bull  stag  beef,  and  such  like, 
was  very  eood  for  the  pensioners,  as  they  are 
well  clothed  and  laid  in  eood  beds,  and  so 
on ;  that  he  thought  it  m^nt  do  very  well ;  I 
reasoned  a  gooa  deal  about  it ;  told  Mr. 
Cooke  that  there  was  as  much  difference  b^ 
twecn  bull  beef  and  ox  beef,  as  between  a 
piece  of  coarse  hop-bag  and  fine  cloth. 

Did  he  endeavour  to  persuade  you  not  ta 


157]  ftipeciiHg  the  Hoyal  HoMpUal  td  Oremmch.        A.  D.  1778. 


[ifia 


ay  there  had  heen  bull-beef  ^-^He  did  not  say 
much  about  that;  he  only  argued  that  the 
beef  was  so  and  eo ;  hedid  not  persuade  me. 

Was  it  all  bull  beef?  From  the  time  you 
cnne  there,  had  you  no  good  beef? — Cmen 
ve  had  a  good  quarter ;  but  a  mixture  of  that 
sort. 

But,  in  general,  during  the  whole  course  of 
that  ten  months,  from  September  to  June, 
was&e  beef  bull  or  bull-stag  beef,  or  good 
ox  beef? — It  was  all  in  general  very  bad. 

Do  you  imagine,  for  instance,  that  there 
was  any  day  that  passed  in  which  it  was  all 
good? — ^Ketone. 

Was  there  any  day  in  which  there  was  no 
piopartion  of  ^mmI?— There  might  be  one 
part  or  two  parts  good ;  one  very  good  auar- 
ler;  two  quarters  will  do  at  one  kitciwn; 
there  might  be  one  quarter  of  bull  or  bull  stag, 
and  one  quarter  made  up  of  fairish  good  sort 
of  meat? 

Utatishalfandhalf?— Notsomuch;  most 


The  days  you  speak  of  there  was  one  quarter 
of  the  right  sort  of  beef,  and  one  quarter  of 
tlus  sort? — Somethnes. 

Did  that  happen  every  day  ? — ^No. 

How  often  aid  it  happen? — ^It  might  be 
ence  a  week  or  so. 

How  many  times  did  it  happen  in  the 
whole  year,  that  bull  beef  was  brought  in  in- 
stead of  ox  beef? — There  never  was  a  day, 
fer  ten  months,  that  a  real  lot  of  ox  beef  was 
brought  in. 

What  did  you  mean  by  saying  just  now, 
tiiflt  once  a  week  it  happened  ? — ^Iliat  a  quar- 
ter might  be  good,  and  the  rest  bad. 

Wfa^  was  the  proportion  of  eood  and  bad  ? 
What  was  the  whole  quantity  brought  in? — 
Abeut  460lb.  a  day  to  each  kitchen. 

How  many  pounds  of  that  460lb.  were  bad 
beef?— May  be  SOOlb. 

And  this  happened  every  day,  or  once  a 
%eek  ? — ^Evcry  day. 

Every  day  during  all  that  time  ? — ^Yes. 

How  lone  have  you  been  at  Greenwich 
Hospital?-— £ver  since  the  99th  of  September, 
1774. 

Has  this  practice  of  ^vins  bad  meat  to  the 
mea  prevailed  ever  since?— No.    ' 

In  how  much  of  that  time  have  you  had 
good  or  bad  meat? — Since  the  butcher  has 
been  convicted  it  has  been  in  general  very 
good. 

Before  the  butcher  was  convicted,  how  long 
had  you  bad  meat? — ^For  ten  months. 

And  since  that  time  you  have  had  tolerably 
good  meat? — ^Tes. 

Have  you  had  any  bull  beef  since  ? — ^No> 
none  I  believe. 

Expbtn  what  you  mean  by  buU-staes? — It 
happens  among  tiiose  animals  of  buUs  they 
are  subject  to  a  disorder,  they  call  it,  that  tl^y 
take  firmg ;  after  they  are  past  serving  cows, 
thnrarecut 

Do  you  mean  to  say,  that  from  the  time 
Ibese  eompiaiiits  were  made,  in  June,  iff 5, 


that  the  butdier  altered  his  behaviour  to  the 
Hospital,  and  gave  ydu  the  meat  he  ought  %» 
do?—- Yes. 

Would  an  inspection  of  the  meat  shew  how 
long  that  bull  had  been  cut?  Can  vou  dis- 
tinguish if  it  had  been  cut  a  considerable  time 
before?  Can  you  distinguish  tiiat  from  ox 
beef? — Yes,  very  easy,  either  deadorahve; 
more  alive  than  dead. 

How  do  you  distingubh  H  ? — By  the  shape 
and  make  of  them ;  these  animals  are  very 
thick  in  the  neck,  from  an  ox  that  is  cut  when 
it  is  young. 

In  the  mean  time  that  vou  found  this  bull 
beef  and  buU^'Stag  beef  delivered  into  tba 
kitchen,  that  you  had   not  made  any  eom- 

glaint,  had  you  been  advised  bv  any  friend; 
>r  your  own  interest,  to  hold  your  tongue 
upon  it?— No. 

You  will  explain  that  matter,  about  the  beef 
being  good  since  the  prosecution. — ^It  has 
been  very  good  in  general;  sometimes  oo 
butcher  in  the  kingdom  can  make  it  all  atike; 
sometimfBS  there  nave  been  lots  of  beef  and 
mutton  that  were  not  extraordinaty. 

Were  there  any  complaints  in  1776,  or  1777, 
respecting  sow-pork? — ^Yes,  it  will  be  tw^ 
years,  the  33d  ot  April  next. 

Then  it  was  in  April,  1777  ? — ^Yes;  it  was 
the  pork  day,  before  the  Founder^s  day,  as  it 
is  called. 

What  butcher  was  it  from  ? — ^Mr.  Melliah. 

How  was  it  complained  of? — I  believe  it 
would  have  passed  without  any  complaint ;  I 
did  not  mean  to  make  any  complaint  of  it ;  I 
did  see  it.  A  lieuteiumt,  who  nad  no  mean- 
ing, happened  to  speak  of  it  in  the  council- 
room  ;  and  on  the  Friday  ni^^  and  the  next 
board  day,  the  gentlemen  of  the  Hospital,  the 
steward,  and  clerk  of  the  cli»[|ue,  and  some 
other  people,  wrote  against  this  lieutenant  to 
the  board,  for  mutiny,  for  saying  there  wa» 
sow  pork  in  the  bin  that  day. 

But  you  are  a  judge  ot  the  matter;  waa 
there  sow  pork  defivered  in  March  1777,  or 
not? — ^Yes ;  there  was  one  sow  delivered  wi^ 
the  teats  cut  off. 

Was  there  only  one  sow  ?--Only  on^ 

That  has  not  been  lepealed,  hasit?— No^ 
never. 

How  much  pork  was  sent  in  that  dayK->r 
Between  IS  ana  14  cwt 

How  much  did  that  sow  weigh?^-We  did 
not  weixh  one  by  itself;  it  is  all  ^leithed  ia 
one  scale.  [Alexander  Moore  witbdiew.] 

Captain  Baillk  called  in. 

Whether  you  received,  at  any  time,  aagf 
thanks  firom  any  body  for  oroaecuting,  in  tbia 
bu^ess,  either  of  the  butener  or  oi  ^  ser- 
vants?— I  received  a  veiy  honourable  testi- 
mony of  my  poor  services,  in  the  traaspcrti^ 
tlon  of  the  butcher's  servant,  fiom  the  first 
lord  of  the  Admirahy,  when  he  was  trails 
ported. 

In  what  manner  did  you  reeeive  that  teiti- 
nony?— I  had  writtei^  aktter  to  hit  loidahif. 


159] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  ofCofAtnn  Thomas  BasUie,         [160 


upon  that  occasicHiy  setting  forth  the  abuse 
that  had  been  committed  in  the  Hospital; 
and  his  lordship  was  pleased  to  send  me  a  let- 
ter acknowieagingy  that  my  services  were 
very  laudable,  and|  in  his  estimation,  veiy 
proper  and  rieht 

Have  you  uiat  letter  about  you } — ^Yes. 

I  suppose  the  noble  lord  has  no  objection 
to  its  being  read? 

TheEarlof&iiMiincA.    Not  in  the  least. 

Captain  Baillie  then  read  the  following  letter. 

«  Admiralty,  Oct.  6, 1772. 
Sir;  I  was  favoured  with  yours  some  days 
ago,  and  think  your  activity,  to  bring  the  per- 
petrators of  the  late  abuses  to  justice,  highly 
hudable :  and  I  should  imagine  you  must 
feel  much  self-satisfaction,  as  I  am  satisfied 
you  have  done  yourself  real  credit.  This,  how- 
ever, makes  me  much  at  a  loss  to  understand, 
why  you  are  uneasy  in  your  situation,  nor  can 
I  guess  what  sort  of  retreat  you  have  in  view ; 
as  noticing  occurs  to  me,  in  this  department, 
l^t  can  be  an  object  of  your  pursuit,  afler 
your  retirement  upon  the  noble  foundation 
wh^ne  you  are  now  settled. — I  am,  with  regard^ 
your  most  obedient,  humble  servant^ 

"  Sardwich.^' 
«  To  Captain  Baillie." 
.  What  made  you  uneasy  in  your  situation, 
as  you  have  represented  ? — When  I  was  a  cap- 
tain of  the  Hospital,  I  clearly  saw  that  if  ever 
I  arrived  at  the  heutenant-government  of  the 
Hospital,  that  I  had  a  torrent  of  abuses  to 
stem ;  which  made  me  ver]r  indifferent  about 
any  preferment  in  Greenwich  Hosmtal ;  and 
even  at  that  time  of  day,  I  would  nave  gone 
out  of  the  Hospital  upon  any  terms ;  and  after 
that  rtpresented  my  situation  to  lord  Ssuid- 
wich,  and  would  have  gone  to  any  part  of  his 
Duyesty's  dominions,  to  have  gone  out  of 
Greaawich  Hospital ;  but  it  was  my  fate  to 
stay  there,  and  I  have  discharged  my  duW,  in 
every  part  of  my  office,  to  uie  best  of  my 
ability. 

.  Were  there  any  thanks  about  the  butcher  ? 
— ^When  the  butcher  was  prosecuted,  and 
when  depositions  wc;re  taken  oefore  Mr.  Pell, 
1  inclosed  authentic  copies  of  those  deposi- 
tions to  the  first  lord  or  the  Admiralty,  and 
was  quite  astonished  that  I  received  no  answer 
or  support  from  his  lordship  upon  that  occasion ; 
and  upon  an  interview  with  nis  lordship  after- 
wards, I  mnasreceived  in  a  manner  that  I  did  not 
expect,  in  a  veiY  cool  manner.  I  entreated 
his  lordship  to  take  the  contract  from  1^1  r.  Mel- 
lish ;  that  a  man  who  had  cheated  the  Hos- 
pital, by  both  himself  and  his  servants,  would 
persevere  in  the  same  kind  of  conduct;  and  I 
believe  he  has,  till  since  the  last  conviction. 

What  time  was  it  you  sent  an  account  of 
your  detection  of  the  butcher } — Soon  afVer  the 
.9th  of  June,  I  enclosed  the  depositions  already 
^nentioned  to  his  lordship ;  I  did  not  choose 
to  write  to  the  board  of  Admiralty,  because  I 
thou^t  it  would  not  be  proper  to  disclose  the 
whok  ioteraal  managqueat  of  Greenwich 


Hospital  to  the  board,  therefore  I  sent  it  more 
privately  to  his  lordship. 

Infomr  the  committee  what  number  of 
clerks,  deputies  or  servants,  who  are  not  sea- 
farin,^  men,  have  apartments  in  the  Hospital, 
and  those  that  have  wards? — I  beheve  in  alL 
twenty-six,  twenty-seven,  or  twenty-eight  of- 
ficers, under  officers,  and  servants  of  the  esta- 
blishment^ that  are  actuallv  lodged  within  the 
walls  of  the  Hospital,  and  some  in  the  warda 
of  the  pensioners ;  if  your  lordships  please,  I 
will  begin  with  Mr.  Eden ;  he  has  a  large 
apartment  at  the  south  end  of  the  buildingv 
called  Queen  Ann*s  Buildings.  M&  IbbetHon 
has  a  very  handsome  and  spacious  apartment,' 
ait  the  other  end  of  the  same  building,  twQ 
large  stair-cases  leading  to  those  apartments, 
communicate  with  seieral  of  the  wards  in  that 
quarter ;  these  stair-cases  are  not  enclosed, 
but  the  avenues  leading  to  the  several  warda 
are  enclosed  for  the  private  convenience  of 
these  gentlemen ;  I  have  been  oflen  obstruct- 
ed in  my  duty,  in  Visiting  those  wards,  because 
there  now  remains  only  a  narrow  staircase 
leading  to  them ;  it  has  been  my  pleasure  and 
my  pride,  to  shew  that  Hospital  to  several  fo- 
reign princes,  particularly  to  the  prince  of 
Brunswick^  two  princes  of  Hesse,  &c.  &c.  but 
that  quarter  of  the  Hospital  is  not  now  shewn 
to  Strangers  upon  that  account,  not  to  mention 
the  other  inconveniencies.  There  are,  besides, 
the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke;  he  is  lodged  there  as 
chaplain  of  the  Hospital ;  the  rev.  Mr.  Maule, 
and  Mr.  Godby,  have  handsome  apartments, 
Mr.  Godby  has  had  an  addition  to  his  apart- 
ments; the  secretary  to  sir  John  Nonris 
brought  up  a  large  family  in  that  apartment, 
without  requiring  any  addition  to  it;  Mr. 
Godby  has  had  an  additional  room  or  two 
since,  his  apartment  not  being  thought  ho^ 
enough. 

What  was  that  room  taken  out  of? — ^I  be- 
lieve  part  of  one  of  the  offices,  either  out  of  his 
or  the  treasurcr's-office,  an  exchange  was  mado 
ilpon  that  occasion. 

Upon  the  whole,  there  are  twenty-six  or 
twenty-seven  landmen,  who  are  lodged  in  the 
wards  of  the  pensioners  ? — Not  so  many  land- 
men actually  locked  in  the  wards  of  the  pen- 
sioners, some  of  them  are  in  apartments  in  the 
Hospital. 

How  many  are  lodged  in  the  wards? — 
Francis  Cook,  secretary's  clerk,  has  a  hand- 
some apartment  in  the  wards  of  the  pen- 
sioners, I  believe  little  inferior  to  a  captain's 
apartment;  he  occupies  to  the  amount  of 
twenty-four  or  twenty-sL\  cabins. 

How  many  cabins  of  pensioners  do  you 
think  are  occupied  by  officers  in  the  House  ? — 
If  I  include  the  officers,  there  are  several 
officers  lodged  in  that  psurt  of  the  building; 
that  was  originally  intended,  certainly  for 
wards,  because  tlie  proper  apartments  are  oc- 
cupied by  otlicrs,  wno  don*t  appear  to  me  to 
have  a  right  in  the  establishment ;  lieutenant 
Gordon  is  lodged  in  a  part  of  the  Hospital 
founded  for  wards ;  lieutenant  Kerr,  the  derk 


J6I]        re^iediMg  the  Royci  Hotfkid  at  Greemuch.        A.  D.  1778. 


[162 


of  thecbeque,  the  two  ihatrons,  and  the  clerk 

of  the  works,  but  there  are  about  forty-eight  or 

fifty  cabins  occupied  by  intruders,  that  have 

beak  cabins  durii^  my  time. 
Upoa  the  whofe,  blow  maiiy  cabins  of  pen- 

noners  are  occupied  by  oflfcers? — AeaUy  I 
camiot  tell  how  many  cabins,  because  some  of 
those  cabins  were  occupied  before  I  came  into 
the  Hospital,  but  there  are  about  forty-eight 
80  occupied,  that  have  been  cabins,  that  I  re- 
meoiber  the  greater  part  of,  if  not  all  of  them. 

Is  th^e  any  objection  for  want  of  room  for 
the  pensioners? — There  is  certainly  room 
sufficient  for  the  number  of  pensioners  that 
inhabit  at  present,  but  there  are  always  seamen 
waiting  in  expectation  of  admission. 

The  Earl  of  Sandmeh,  Was  that  the  an- 
swer, that  there  were  always  seamen  waiting 
to  be  admitted? — A.  I  understand  there  are 
always  people  coming  down  to  Greenwich 
Hospital,  intreating  for  admission. 
.  Do  you  say,  that  you  know  that  there  are 
seamen  waiting  to  be  admitted  ? — I  have  oflen 
heard  it. 

Speak  from  your  own  knowledge;  do  you 
know  any  such  thing? — I  know  an  extraordi- 
naiy  instance  of  a  seaman,  that  did  not  get 
adfloission  into  the  Hospital ;  I  don't  know  at 
present. 

.  Whether  ^ou  don't  know  of  any  vacancy  at 
the  present  time  for  pensioners  ? — ^I  am  not  in 
office  at  Greenwich  tiospital  at  present 

I  ask  you  if  you  don*t  know  that  there '  is 
any  vacancy  mr  pensioners?  How  can  you 
say  that  there  are  seamen  waiting  to  be  admit- 
ted ?— I  understood  it  to  have  been  always  the 
case,  that  there  are  a  number  upon  the  list  at 
the  Admiralty. 

Do  you  say  it  is  so  now  ? — I  don't  say  so 
by  any  means,  because  I  don't  know  the  list 
of  the  Admiralty ;  I  cannot  judge  of  that. 

Be  so  good  as  give  the  remancable  instance 
you  roenti0ned  that  you  have  known? — I 
Knew  a  particular  instance  of  a  seaman,  who 
was  recommended  by  admiral  Harrington,  to 
be  admitted  into  Greenwich  Hospital,  the  man 
died  in  Greenwich,  in  the  room  of  a  mess- 
mate of  his,  that  was  a  pensioner  in  Green- 
wich Hosoital,  he  died  with  twenty  years  ser- 
vitude in  his  pocket,  which  I  can  produce ;  he 
bad  been  at  the  Admiralty  between  the  exar 
minations,  they  examine  but  once  in  three 
BMmths,  and  he  (between  the  examinations) 
dic^  and  did  not  get  admittance  into  the  Hos- 
J^ital.  I  don't  mean  to  bring  any  charge 
against  anj^  persoi^  for  that  it  nught  oe  an  ac- 
cideQtal  thing,  andf  I  believe  it  was. 

How  man^  examinations  do  they  go  through 
at  tiie  Admiralty  ? — ^I  cannot  say  as  to  that ;  I 
believe  but  one,  on  the  first  Thursday  in  the 
quarter. 

How  many  pensioners  are  lodged  in  the 
Hospital? — Two  thousand  one  hundred  and 
ttcty-nine,  besides  nurses  and  boys. 

Do  you  ever  remember  a  time  when  more 
weie  kdged  lii  the  Hospital  than  now  ?«-I  be- 
lieve thefe  never  were  more. 

VOL  XXI.  * 


Then  where  is  the  difference  between  one 
time  and  another  ?  if  there  is  always  stifiicient 
for  this  purposoy  and  there  never  was  more, 
the  waras  of  the  pensioners  might  be  as  well 

given  up  for  other  purposes  as  not? — It  would 
old  more  pensioners,  fifty  more,  if  those  ca- 
bins were  sivenup  for  ttiat  purpose;  when  I 
came  into  the  Hospital,  there  were  not  above 
1,500  pensioners,  they  are  continually  in- 
creasing; as  the  funds  of  the  Hospital  in« 
crease,  so  the  pensioners  increase,  because  I 
humbly  imagme,  there  are  always  objects 
sufficient;  we  have  500  outpensioners  now. 

Where  was  the  mischief  m  taking  off  48  or 
50  of  these  cabins  of  the  pensioners,  when  the 
reminder  of  the  Hospital  was  more  than  suffi* 
cient  to  lodge  all  the  pensioners  in  it? — ^There 
are  more  than  500  out-pensioners  now,  I  dare 
say,  every  man  of  them  would  be  glad  to  get 
into  the  Hospital  if  they  could. 

Ai:e  they  out-pensioners  from  choice,  or 
how  is  that? — ^Tne  one  has  7/.  a  year,  the 
other  has  a  much  better  establishment. 

How  many  out-pensioners  are  there  now  ?■<— 
It  is  uncertain  to  say  now ;  I  believe  about 
500 ;  some  of  them  go  to  the  East-Indies  and 
abrc»d ;  it  is  difficult  to  ascertain  them. 

How  many  men  might  be  admitted,  if  those 
out-pensioners  were  to  be  received  ? — If  those 
gentiemen  I  have  named  were  removed,  I 
suppose  the  Hospital  would  contain  200  more. 

But  if  they  were  removed,  would  there  be 
room  to  lodge  so  many  more  pensioners  con- 
veniently ? — If  the  persons  that  have  no  right 
to  Greenwich  Hospital  were  removed,  tiiere 
would  be  room  for  a  great  many  more  than 
there  are  now. 

The  eleven  following  miestions  were  asked  by 
the  Earloi  5andzzHcA. 

Do  you  mean  that  all  those  apartments  <^ 
the  Hospital  have  been  cabins  formerly? — 
No,  I  do  ^not  mean  to  explain  myself  in  that 
manner. 

Have  these  cabins  been  taken  away  from 
men  that  inhabited' them? — ^Yes,  about  48. 

About  48  have  been  taken  away.  Was  the 
number  of  pensioners  dismissed  when  they 
were  taken  away  ? — I  don't  saV  that  they  have 
been  turned  out  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  but 
there  have  been  so  many  less  admitt^. 

Less  admitted  ?  there  is  a  certa^  number 
established :  when  those  cabins  were  taken 
away  to  be  fitted  up  for  roooks  for  the  officers, 
whether  all  the  pensioners  had  not  been  ad- 
mitted?— ^Noboay  has  been  turned  out  of  the 
Hospital,  but  those  apartments  have  been  de- 
stroyed, and  other  apartments  mad^  up  for 
pensioners. 

If  those  officers  were  t.umed  out  of  tfiit 
Hospital,  must  not  lodgings  be  taken  for  theih 
in  the  town,  or  somewhere  else? — ^No>  b^ 
cause  I  don't  understand  that  they  have 
any  right  to  the  establishment,  those  clerks 
that  Iwve  not  been  at  sea. 
«  Suppose  they  bad  been  all  seamen,  you  wiU, 
%llow;'  I  iuppose,  that  it  is  A«9«Maiy  to  hava 


m 


IS  GEORGE  III.  Tie  Case  ^Otpiain  Thomas  BmOk,        JlOi 


«oine  derks  and  people  to  co  on  vitii  the^ 
busmess  of  the  Hospital  ?-— ^ ;  bat  I  donH 
tNink  that  a  charity  like  Greenwich  Hoflnital, 
should  be  incumbca^  with  people  that  nave 
never  been  at  sea  in  their  lives. 
.  But  supposing  those  clerks  were  all  seamen, 
then  are  they,  or  are  they  not,  necessary  for 
(tarrying  on  the  business  of  the  Hospital? — 
The  business  of  Greenwich  Hospital  cannot 
be  carried  on  without  clerks ;  but  there  is  such 
^  number  of  landmen  lodged  in  the  Hospital, 
that  they  out-number  the  sea  officers  in  pro- 
portbn,  because  those  twent^six  or  twenty- 
Beven  are  more  than  we  have  captains  or  lieu- 
tenants, or  naval  officers,  in  the  Hospital. 

Does  not  a  man  who  lias  been  at  sea  take 
up  as  much  room  in  a  bed,  or  in  an  apartment, 
as  a  man  who  has  not  been  at  sear— One  of 
these  men  take  up -six,  nay,  ten  times  as  much 
room  as  a  common  pensioner. 

But  a  pensioner  or  a  clerk,  being  a  seaman, 
take;?  up  as  much  room  as  a  landman,  does  he 
not  ? — One  of  those  clerks  takes  up  much  more 
room. 

You  were  asked  by  the  noble  lord,  whe- 
ther one  man  does  not  take  up  as  much  room 
as  another  f — Certainly  so. 

Did  the  taking  away  these  fifty  cabins  leave 
less  room  for  the  pensioners  than  formerly  ? — 
Certainly. 

Earl  of  Chetter^ld.  How  came  you  in  your 
letter,  afler  the  fire,  to  desire  that  a  lodging 
might  be  appointed  for  you ;  afler  that 
fire  you  say  there  was  room  for  all  the  burnt 
««t  pensioners,  and  for  you  into  the  bargain  ? 
«— In  the  first  place,  the  service  has  required 
the  aid  and  assistance  of  a  great  numo^of 
j>ensioners  from  Greenwich  Hospital;  I  did 
Hiyselfprocure  950or300men  to  fit  out  the 
dinerent  ships  in  the  river;  when,  befi>re  my 
return  from  Briehthelmstone  last  year,  they 
oould  not  raise  above  40;  the  men  burnt  out 
are,  I  apprehend,  lodged  in  their  cabins; 
there  are  about  SOO  more  have  leave  to  lie  out 
of  the  Hospital  with  their  wives  and  families; 
and  I  conclude,  of  course,  that  those  men's 
beds  are  occupied  who  lie  out. 

How  came  you  to  write  such  a  letter  from  a 
conclusion  ?  How  many  cabins  were  destroyed 
by  the  fire?*— I  was  not  in  office  then;  about 
S50, 1  imadne,  or  900. 

If  the  clerks  lodged  ouL  would  not  their 
Jodginsbe  liable  to  be  paid  for  by  the  cheir 
rity  F—There  is  no  such  establishment. 

If  the  handsome  and  spacious  apartments 
which  are  allotted  to  these  gentlemen  were 
qontracted,  so  as  to  give  them  a  decent  md 
convenient  habitation,  would  not  the  Hospi- 
tal, upon  such  an  alteration  as  that,  be  able  to 
contam  a  great  maiiy  more  pensioners? — ^It 
would  be  veiy  difiKcult  to  contract  some  of 
"those  apartments,  unless  you  put  the  officers 
«nly  upon  onefioor ;  that  part  of  the  building 
vras  intended  originally  as  a  palace;  it  was 
not  finished  in  snug  small  apartments. 
•  Then  I  imderstwd  you  it  woukl  be  diffi- 
c^)^  gr  retf  lacQaveuenty  to  convert  some  of 


tiiMe  apartments  into  penakmenf  wavds  or 
cabins?— -Some  of  thase  spartments  might  be 
easily  converted  into  apaitmenla  m  the 
lieutenants  who  otcapy  wuds,  and  then  the 
pe&sionen  xnight  be  (mt  into  their  apartments, 
which  were  intended  for  wuds. 

They  ooold  raAke  audi  an  alteration  to  make 
it  convenient  for  the  officers? — ^Yes. 

And  what  doyoathink  micht  be  the  nrnn- 
her  of  pensioners  that  might  be  added  to  tlie 
Hospital  ?— Fifty.  Some  of  them  might  bt 
altered  in  a  short  time  and  at  a  little  expence. 

And  should  you  have  room  enoueb  tnemtb 
lodge  the  officers  who  are  lodted  there  at 
present  ? — ^No ;  I  speak  of  the  derks,  who  I 
think  have  no  right  to  lo<^  there  at  all. 

Have  there  not  been  oonsiderabie  enlarge- 
ments made  to  the  apartments  of  several 
of  these  officers  ?— Yes,  some  ad<fitional  apart- 
ments. 

Have  they  been  considerable ;  and  to  what 
an;ount? — ^In  1771  or  177S,  eleven  cabins 
were  taken  away  to  accommodate  Mr.  Ibbet- 
son ;  I  complained  of  it  to  the  lords  of  the  Ad- 
miralty, and  that  was  redressed. 

I  want  to  know  what  have  beoiumedresfl* 
ed  ? — The  secretary's  derk,  the  derk  of  the 
cheque's  clerk,  tfie  steward's  derk,  have  had 
apartments,  which  have  not  been  redressed. 
.  Are  those  apartments  taken  fiom  the  pen* 
sioners'  wards  ? — ^Most  of  them  were. 

Were  the  additions  to  the  steward's  deilt 
taken  from  the  pensbners' wards? — ^No;  that 
was  a  part  taken  in  the  new  buildins  that 
would  have  lodged  a  lieutenant  very  well. 

The  Earl  of  Sandwich,  Whether  I  did  not 
myself  make  it  my  business  to  have  Mr. 
Ibbetson's  cabins  immediately  restored  to  the 
pensioners?— I  had  the  honour  to  lay  that 
complaint  before  your  lordship  at  the  Admi- 
ralty; I  waited  all  day ;  I  haa  no  answer  of 
any  sort  directly  or  indirectly,  and  never  knew 
that  the  cabins  were  to  be  restored  till  I  saw 
them  putting  up  again. 

The  Earl  of  Sandmkh.  1  have  not  had  an 
answer ;  m  v  question  was,  whether  you  doni 
know  that  the  moment  I  heard  of  these  cabins 
bcong  pulled  down  I  made  it  iny  business  to 
call  a  general  court,  and  ordered  them  to  be 
put  up  again  in  three  weeks  ?— They  were  put 
up  again. 

The  Earl  of  &miMcA.  And  you  don't  know 
that  I  ordered  it?— No. 

Pray  do  you  know  whether  the  revenue  of 
the  Hospital  will  bear  the  additbn  of  more 
pensioners  than  are  in  at  this  time  ? — I  believe, 
if  there  was  the  same  sort  of  frugality  in  everjr 
other  department  in  the  expences  of  the  Hoa- 
pital  that  is  held  out  towards  the  pensionerau 
It  would:  the  directors  are  reserved  ami 
sparing  in  every  thing  that  concerns  the  pep- 
sioners,  such  as  their  shoes  and  stodcings;  in 
every  article  concerning  the  pensioners ;  and 
in  my  hinnble  opinion^  gfpai  part  of  the  rev^ 
nue  of  the  Hospital  is  Ind  oqt  i(^  mKOj  mme* 
cessary  alterations,  reparations  and  fautldingi^ 
when  we  have  not  money  to  pay  fot  it. 


US]       rupeeOng  iks  ABy«2  Hotpikd  ai  Grtmxidu        A.  D.  177^. 


[16» 


Ai  IXky  I  defiketo  ioiow  whctker  the  re- 
feawB  of  Ike  fiospUal  wiU  bear  soore  pea* 
•McntiiKi  are  bow  in  k  ? — I  can't  pretend 
to  iBSwer  that  question  fn^ciaely,  the  ex* 
poice  of  the  pensioQera  now  is  SOf.  or  dSt. 

rr  BDapi  per  scummy  more  than  it  was,  and 
fosttively  say  the  necessaries  have  been 


Dd  von  know  that  any  oMMiey  has  been  ap- 
)^ied  tor  to  parhamoit  this  year  and  the  last 
towards  the  support  of  Greenwkfa  Hospital  ? 
—I  have  not  seen  the  votes  to  know  what 
has  been  done  this  year;  but  I  beheve  in  the 
last  thiee  years  they  have  had  15^000/.  6,000/. 
4filOOLmA&fiQOl. 

I  think  you  said  there  had  been  about  fi)rty* 
dg^t  cabins  taken  firom  the  peasionera  since 
your  aaesMMnr^  for  the  increase  of  the  apart- 
ments of  dwnent  officeis;  did  you  say  so  or 
not? — I  don't  8]^eak  exactly  to  lbrty«eighty 
birt^maboiits,  It inighibe  twoor three  more 

W«re  there  additional  officers  aooonuno- 
dated^  that  it  was  necessary  to  take  these 
cabins  ? — There  was  no  c^&cer  acoommo^ed, 
but  tbeee  clerks,  in  that  part 

1¥faere  were  the  clerks  lodged  before?--^ 
8eme  of  them  had  iv>  lodgingis  in  the  Hos- 
pital befiwe. 

Was  the  business  of  the  Hospital  carried  on 
as  wdl  before  as  it  has  been  since? — ^Much 
betftar  ;  there  was  qc^  then  that  Action  or  party 
of  lanwien  that  there  is  at  present. 

Was  the  duty  of  the  Hospital  carried  on 
faettev  Off  woffse? — Fidlaswell;  because tlury 
have  introduced  net  only  themselves  but  their 
wives  and  &milies. 

Whether  these  forty-eight  cabins,  or  there- 
abouts^ were  taken  for  the  nurpose  of  putting 
isk  then  fresh  offioersy  or  cierkisy  or  servants, 
or  were  they  for  enlarging  the  apartments  of 
those  gentlemen  ?-^I  toUcvo  the  greater  part 
:ivere  tor  entire  new  apartments;  there  was 
one  apartment  that  was  appropriated  for  the 
we  01  the  governor's  clerk.  In  conseauence 
of  so  many  c^luns  being  taken  away  oefore, 
there  was  not  room  for  the  pensioners,  and 
then  that  apartment  he  had  was  converted 
into  ealMn%  and  another  apartment  given  him 
in  the  new  building. 

.  Where  were  the  chief  of  those  clerks  and 
people  l<4ged  before  those  forty-eieht  cabins 
were  applied  to  their  use? — ^1  don't  know  that 
they  had  any  lodgings  but  what  they  paid  for 
in  the  town  on  their  own  account.  For  in- 
staDce»  the  secretary's  clerk ;  he  has  no  busi- 
iiessin  Greenwich  Hospital  but  once  in  Uiree 
weeks  for  about  two  hours;  the  boards  of  di- 
rectors are  prmcipally  held  in  London. 

You  wereaskeci  if  there  is  not  a  fixed  num- 
ber of  pensioners  in  Greenwich  Hospital?  Do 
vou  know  of  any  fixed  number? — I  donH 
Kncyw  of  any  fixed  number,  according  to  the 
teem  we  have;  the  men  haveinerea^  con- 
sideiab^. 

Is  there  not  always  a  certain,  fixed  number 
fi^m^  u|K)ii  theeitabliihmeQttbeie?— Ac 


cording  to  the  number  of  cabins  we  have  to 
accoinmodate  them. 

This  goes  to  the  former  point;  you  don't 
build  cabins, 'do  you,  unless  the  revenue  wiH 
pay  the  biuldii^  of  the  cabins,  and  for  the 
nouurishment  of  the  inhabitants  of  those 
cabins  ?  Do  you  think  it  for  the  advantage  of 
the  Hospital  to  lay  out  mon^  in  building 
cabins,  when  you  can't  afford  to  mid  provisions 
to  maintain  the  people  that  are  to  inhabit 
them  ? — ^I  think  it  would  be  much  more  for 
the  benefit  of  Greenwidi  Hospital  to  find 
cabins  for  pensioners,  than  to  lay  out 
1,500Z.  at  one  stroke,  for  cleaning  the  Painted- 
mdl,  and  1,300/.  for  obtaimng  a  new  charter. 

You  said,  heretofore,  several  of  the  clerks 
were  lodged  out  of  the  Hospital;  I  should  be 
glad  to  know,  whether  they  had  any  increase 
of  salary  to  provide  lodgings  ?  Or  were  lodg- 
ings provided  and  paid  for  out  of  the  Hospi- 
tars  funds  ? — ^I  beUcve  one  steward's  clerk  had 
a  httle  matter  allowed  him,  to  pay  for  a  lodg- 
ing in  town.  In  that  case,  neithet  his  u- 
muy,  nor  children,  nor  servants,  were  entailed 
on  the  Hospital,  which  is  a  great  expence  to  it. 

When  he  got  an  apartment  in  the  Hospital^ 
was  that  little  taken  off? — Certainly. 

You  say  by  receiviiu;  the  wives  and  fomi- 
lies  into  the  Hospital  that  they  become  a 
burthen  upon  the  Hospital.  Are  they  maii>- 
tained  by  the  Hospital  ?— The  surgeon  and 
apothecary's  bills  run  high ;  they  are  entitled 
to  the  advice  of  those  persons;  that  entaib  not 
only  one  but  ten  persons,  perhaps.  They  are 
allowed  several  other  little  things,  beside 
their  apartments;  and  small  beer  without 
excise,  and  all  those  little  kind  of  things. 

The  Earl  of  Cketteffield.  Has  your  fiimily 
been  any  expence  to  tHe  Hospital  ? — By  the  n^ 
stitution  of  the  Hospital,  every  officer's  fomily 
is  allowed  those  indulgences.  • 

Was  your  family  any  additional  expence  to 
the  Hospital? — I  believe  not  more  than  any 
other  oflScer;  1  believe  a  great  deal  less  than 
anv  other  officer's  family  in  the  Hospital. 

If  I  understand  you  right,  those  additional 
officers  that  were  lodged  m  the  town,  are  lodg- 
ed in  the  Hospital  now;  by  which  means  they 
have  remov^  about  forty-eieht  cabins,  or 
thereabouts  ? — ^l  don't  know  wnere  they  lodff- 
ed  before ;  they  did  not  lodge  in  the  Hospital; 
some  lodged  in  London,  some  in  Deptford. 

You  have  been  asked,  whether  it  would  be 
advantageous  to  the  Hospital  to  have  more 
cabins  £an  thev  have  a  fund  for  providing  for 
the  people?  You  were,  I  think,  asked  that 
question  ? — ^I  was. 

What  was  your  answer  to  that? — Certainly, 
I  think,  paruament  would  not  besrudge  a 
small  matter  to  the  seamen  of  the  Itospital,  if 
the  revenue  should  foil  a  little  short 

If  I  misunderstood  you,  you  will  set  me 
right.  Did  you  not  say  you  think  there  might 
be  a  great  many  more  pensioners  maidtaiiMd, 
if  there  was  a  piroper  economy  in  the  Hospital? 
— ^I  do  think  a  considerable  number  more;  I 
think  so  sincerely  in  my  conscience* 


V 


167] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Que  ofCaptaim  Themat 


[168 


And  in  that  case,  if  there  were  more  pen- 
sioners, would  not  the  additional  cabins,  that 
are  now  given  to  those  officers  and  servants, 
he  wanted  for  them  ?--Certainly . 

May  it  not  be  an  inducement  to  those  offi- 
cers. Knowing  they  would  be  turned  out  of 
their  cabins,  not  to  increase  the  number  of 
pensioners? — ^It  does  not  depend  upon  those 
officers. 

If  the  fund  was  increased  for  the  pensioners, 
might  there  not  be  more  rooms  made  in  the 
Hospital  for  pensioners? — Certainly  there 
mignt. 

Without  removing  those  officers  you  com- 
plain of? — I  don't  know  that  there  could. 

Was  there  any  room,  before  tiie  fire,  to  put 
up  more  cabins,  without  removing  any  of  the 
Clerks  out  of  the  Hospital  ? — I  believe  not,  un- 
less the  infirmary  were  to  be  filled ;  we  alwavs 
keep  a  little  spare  room,  in  case  of  any  epide- 
mic distemper. 

How  many  spare  rooms  do  you  keep? — 
Thirty  or  forty  cabins,  I  believe,  firom  me- 
mory. 

The  Earl  of  Sandwich',  Were  not  some  of 
those  rooms  taken  away,  and  had  cabins  put 
in  them,  since  I  have  l>een  at  the  Admiralty  ? 
— There  have  been  some  fire  places  taken 
.away,  to  make  more  room  at  a  very  consider- 
able expence. 

But  has  it  been  done?— Yes;  but  if  the 
clerks  had  been  removed,  it  would  have  been 
done  without  any  expence  hardly. 

Don't  the  out^pensioners  come  up  here 
every  year,  to  receive  their  pay  ?— No,  at  their 
own  pleasure,  as  it  suits  them;  sometimes 
they  make  a  voyage  to  the  East  or  West  In- 
dies, and  then  come  and  get  Uieir  money,  or  it 
is  paid  to  their  attomies. 

Suppose  they  are  in  England,  are  they  not 
obliged  to  come  and  receive  their  pension? — 
Not  unless  they  choose  it;  their  money  is  re- 
mitted to  their  attomies.  * 

Without  their  comins  up?— Yes,  without 
the  expence  or  trouble  ofcoming  up. 

There  are  out-pensioners  live  as  far  off  as 
Liverpool?— In  all  parts  of  the  kingdom. 

Do  you  know  any  at  Liverpool  ? — Not  parti- 
cularly. 

But  you  say  there  are  some  who  would  wish 
to  be  m-pensbners?^I  believe  the  greater 
part  of  them. 

-     Have  they  some  difficulty  to  receive  their 
money? — ^I  don't  believe  they  have  any  diffi- 
•  culty  to  get  it ;  it  is  always  paid  regularly. 

You  tmnk  it  an  advantage  to  be  an  in-pen- 
aioner? — ^Yes. 

How  many  out-pensioners  do  you  think  there 
are  now^  that  would  wish  to  be  in-pensioners  ? 
— I  dare  say  more  than  half,  three  quarters 
perhaps  *  there  are  very  few  but  what  would 
wish  to  be  in  Greenwich  Hospital.  j 

•  How  man^  in-pensioners  do  you  think  tiiere 
are  at  this  tune,  that  are  not  seamen?— I  be- 
lieve they  are  all  8eafaring4nen ;  I  don't  know 
my  abuse  in  that  particiUar;  I  don't  know  of 
anysuch* 


Whether  it  is  necessary  for  an  out-pensioner 
to  come  to  London  to  receive  his  pay  ? — ^No,  I 
believe  it  b  not;  they  have  it  remitted  to 
them,  with  all  fiM^ity,  to  the  difierent  collec- 
tors where  they  happen  to  live. 

Inform  the  committee  what  mone^  is  given 
to  the  pensioners  of  the  Hospital,  instead  of 
provisions? — There  is  a  great  deal  of  money 

F'ven  to  the  pensioners  instead  of  provisions, 
believe  to  at  least  half  the  pensioners.  We 
have  near  9,400,  including  pensioners,  nuraes, 
and  boys,  and  I  dont  think  we  feed,  upon  an 
average,  1,000. 

Please  to  repeat  what  you  have  just  said  ? — 
We  have  S,  169  pensioners,  1  SO  nurses,  and  X40 
boys ;  out  of  that  number,  amounting  to  about 
SS,400,  we  feed  about  1,000. 
-  What  are  the  persons  that  have  mon^,  in 
what  manner,  and  on  what  account? — Inere 
is  first  of  all  a  list,  that  is  called  the  money- 
list;  that  money-list  was  originally  the  fiill 
value  of  the  pensioners'  allowance,  when  that 
was  first  instituted,  how  long  ago  I  can't  tell ; 
I  believe  it  took  place  about  the  year  1730,  or 
since  perhaps,  I  cannot  say ;  the  nrovisions  of 
a  pensioner  were  then  estimated  at  6d.  per 
diem,  I  consider  it  now  worth  Td,  or  T^d. ; 
they  are  paid  only  td.  that  is  a  saving  to  the 
Hospital. 

How  is  that  granted?  Is  it  granted  to  every 
pensioner  who  chooses  to  ask  for  it? — ^It  is  a 
sort  of  favour  granted  by  the  directors  of  the 
Hospital ;  there  was  a  ereat  abuse  in  that,  but 
now  it  is  only  done  by  ue  recommendation  of 
the  phvsician  and  surgeon;  that  list  has  in- 
creased to  veiy  near  400, 1  believe. 

And  at  the  recommendation  of  the  surgeon, 
money  is  ei ven  to  these  pensioners  f  What  is  it 
given  in  lieu  of? — ^AU  kinds  of  provisions 
whatever;  it  makes  them  a  sortot  out-pea- 
sioners,  for  Uiey  don't  even  muster. 

Do  they  lie  in  the  Hospital  ? — ^Yes ;  uidess 
the  council  give  them  leave  to  lie  out,  which  is 
sometimes  granted. 

They  receive  sixpence  without  any  deduc- 
tion ? — ^Yes,  without  any  deduction  wnatever. 

How  does  it  appear  that  this  is  a  saving  to 
the  Hospital?  Is  7 id,  charged?— No,  but  if 
they  were  victualled,  it  woidd  certainly  cost 
that. 

Does  that  saving  g»  to  the  charity  stock?^ — 
I  believe  it  is  not  apmied  to  that  purpose. 

What  were  the  aouses  that  occasioned  that 
alteration  that  you  say  has  happened  there, 
that  now  it  is  only  upon  the  recommendation 
of  the  surgeon  and  physician? — That  list  in- 
creased so  much,  that  it  took  the  men  off  the 
butier's  aijid  the  chalk-off  list,  which  are  ap- 
propriated to  the  purposes  of  the  charity :  as 
the  charity  suffered  by  their  beinjg  taken  m>m 
the  butler's  and  the  chalk-ott  list,  it  was 
thought  necessaiy  to  put  some  restraint  upon 
it. 

What  number  have  now  the  money  allowed 
in  lieu  of  provi»ons? — From  360, 1  believe,  to 
400. 

What  is  the  chalk^off  list?'-It  i3  a  li«t  tiifei 


l6Sf]         rnpecting  ike  RoyiU  HospUal  at  Greenwich.         A.  Vf}  177d« 


[170 


mry  man  indiscriminately,  upon  liis  first  ad- 
missJOD  into  Greenwich  Hospital,  is  put  on 
whether  he  likes  it  or  not;  in  short,  they 
dim't  ask  his  consent,  hut  they  give  him 
money  in  lieu  of  meat  and  cheese  twice  a 
week ;  that  instead  of  having  meat  five  times 
a  week,  they  have  it,  upon  an  averajge,  about 
three  times ;  tbere  is  a  profit  arising  from  that, 
moe  fifth  part  of  the  original  contract  price  is 
deducted ;  the  profit  gOes  to  the  charity  stock. 

How  much  are  they  allowed  ? — There  is  one 
fifth  part  d^ucted  Irom  the  contract  price. 

Upon  what  articles? — Upon  the  meat,  and 
upon  the  cheese ;  for  instance,  they  get  about 
^d,  fin-  a  pound  of  meat,  which  costs  perhaps 

What  becomes  of  that?  Is  the  meat  fiir- 
mdied  by  the  butcher  and  then  sold  again  }-^ 
No,  it  is  not  fiimished. 

And  then  is  that  set  down,  as  so  much  fur- 
nished by  the  Hospital? — ^No,  they  only  set 
down  what  is  received,  certainly. 

How  is  the  difference  applied  to  the  charity 
stock? — The  men  are  paid  less  money  for 
their  provisions  than  the  contract,  and  the 
dUerence  between  what  they  pay  the  men, 
and  what  would  have  been  otherwise  paid  to 
the  ocMitnictor,  is  appropriated  to  the  charity 
stock. 

And  that  is  instead  of  meat  and  cheese? — 
Yes.  . 

For  how  many  days  in  a  week? — ^Upon  an 
average,  about  twice  in  a  week  ;  in  order  to 
induce  liiese  men  to  submit  to  that  reeulatien, 
tiiiey  are  allowed  broth  made  out  of  me  other 
men's  meat;  so  that  they  have  that  indul- 
gence alternately,  because  every  man  alike  is 
subject  to  that  regulation. 

Are  all  the  men  in  the  Hospital  indiscrimi- 
nately subject  to  this? — ^Yes,  except  those 
upon  the  money-list  and  the  butler's  list :  I 
was  going  to  say  that  by  that  regulation  the 
broth  is  much  impoverished,  because  we  make 
broth  for  400  men  that  do  not  boil  meat  in 
the  copper,  which  impoverishes  the  broth,  and 
«ich  poor  broth  brings  disgrace  upon  the  Hos- 
pital. 

What  is  the  butler's  list  ? — The  men  on  that 
list  sell  all  their  allowance,  except  beer;  they 
cannot  sell  that,  because  it  would  j>robably 
bring  excise  upon  the  Hospital ;  besides,  it  is 
better  than  they  can  buy  tor  the  money  Uioy 
.would  receive,  thero  being  no  excise  upon  it. 
There  is  one-fifUi  part  likewise  deducted  from 
the  or^nal  price  of  the  rest  of  their  allowance, 
which  IS  applied  to  the  charity  stock. 
*    What  is  the  consequence  of  this?   Do  you 
.im^ane  that  it  b  nroductiveof  any  disorder  or 
dninkenness  in  tne  Hospital? — ^It  causes  a 
scene  of  dissijpation  and  drunkenness  through- 
out the  Hospital;  for  seamen  are  like  children, 
they  have  little  or  nathought  for  themselves. 

Have  there  been  any  complaints  made  upon 
that  subject  to  the  proper  officers  ?— Hie  board 
of  ^ferectors  themselves  took  notice  of  this 
scene  of  drunkenness  and  irregularity  in  the 
Ho^Mtaly  and  desir^  the  couacil  to  enquire 


into  the  cause  of  it;  tiie  council  did  ao^  ayidre- 
ported  to  the  board  of  directors  unanimously, 
that  they  thought  itowii^  to  the  chalk-off  list 
that  occasion^  all  that  drunkenness  and  iire- 
gularity  in  the  Hospital. 

Be  so  good  as  to  point  out  the  minutes  of 
the  council  upon  that  matter? — It  is  in  the 
minutes  of  the  council  of  the  9th  of  August, 
1776. 

Mr.  Ball  (Clerk  of  the  Council)  called  in. 

Read  the  minutes  of  the  council  of  9th  Au- 
gust, 1776. 

Vlr,  Ball  read  the  following  Minute : 

^  A  minute  of  the  board  of  directors  com- 
plaining of  the  irregularity  of  the  pensioners, 
was  laia  before  the  council,  who  were  unaqi- 
mously  of  opinion,  that  the  money  list  and  but- 
ler's fistp  smce  the  great  increase  of  pen- 
sioners, IS  now  become  necessary  and  expe- 
dient, having  no  place  at  present  to  accommo- 
date them  at  the  tables,  where  only  Ji,<250  can 
commodiously  dine;  besides  which,  it  contri- 
butes to  the  ease  and  satisfaction  of  those  who 
have  families,  by  dining  with  them,  and  also 
from  the  confinement  of  attending  twice  a  day 
at  the  hall  for  then:  provisions.  That  the 
chalking  off  the  pensioners,  and  ^ving  money 
indiscriminately  to  all  upon  their  first  amis- 
sion, is  not  only  contrary.to  the  establishment, 
but  injurious  to  the  health  and  morals  of  the 
pensioners,  and  is  attended  with  many  incon^ 
veniencies,  improprieties,  and  irregularities; 
and  the  council  are  unanimously  of  opinion, 
that  the  said  custom  ou^ht  to  l>e  totally  abb- 
lished,  there  being  suffiaent  room  in  the  din- 
ing halls  to  dine  all  the  chalk-off  men.'' 

You  keep  the  minutes  of  the  council? — 
Yes. 

You  don't  keep  the  minutes  of  the  court  of 
directors? — No,  Mr.  Ibbetson  keeps  them. 

Mr.  Ibbetson  (Secretary  to  the  Directors)  call^ 

edin. 

Do  you  know  of  any  answer  that  was  made 
to  the  minutes  of  the  council  of  the  9th  of 
August,  1776? — I  donH  know  of  any  answer 
that  was  made  immediately  to  the  council 
upon  that  business. 

Were  any  steps  taken  in  consequence  of  it  ? 
— ^I  will  read  to  your  lordships  what  passed 
upon  that  occasion. 

<«  On  the  3d  of  Au^st,  1776,  the  board 
takine  notice  of  many  inconveniencies  which 
attend  the  practice  of  the  pensioners  selling 
their  provisions,  and  also  that  of  their  being 
chalked  off,  and  money  given  them  in  Ueu  oT 
their  meat  upon  admission  into  the  Hospital 
on  account  thereof,  instead  of  having  the  al- 
lowance of  meat,  according  to  the  establish- 
ment five  days,  they  have  it  onlv  in  their 
turns,  three  days  in  uie  week,  and  improper 
uses  made  of  the  money  so  received  by  them 
in  Jieu,  &c.  &c. 

**  Resolved,  that  Uie  council  be  deured  to 
report  their  opinion  to  this  board  on  Saturday 


171] 


18  GEORGE  UL  \        The  Que  qfO^ain  Thomas  BaiOUy        [172 


next,  if  the  aboii^iiag  tbecustom  of  cfaAtkwS" 
off,  and  giving  such  money  in  lieu,  which  n^ 
pears  ptoduGtive  of  so  many  irregiuanlieSy  &c. 
-win  be  attended  with  any,  and  what  impro- 
prieties and  inoonveniencies.  That  the  board 
meet  on  SaUirdaTf  next  to  take  this  matter  into 
consideration. 

,**  On  Saturday  followin^^  the  lOth  of  Au- 
gust, a  minute  of  the  cotmcil  of  the  9th  instant 
was  read,  in  answer  to  a  reference  (torn  this 
board,  whereby  it  appears,  that  they  are  una- 
Bimously  of  opinion  the  money  aiui  butler's 
lists  should  be  continued^  but  the  custom  of 
chalking  off  should  be  totally  abolished,  to 
prevent  their  making  improper  uses  of  the 
money  so  received  by  them,  in  lieu  of  meat 
and  cheese.  The  fartner  conmderation  of  the 
money  and  butler's  hsts,  and  chalking  off  the 
penskmersy  are  postponed/' and  nothing  seems 
to  be  done  upon  that  occasion. 

My  lonk,  I  was  absent  through  illness; 
and  the  motives  of  it,  and  how  it  came  to  be 
dropt,  I  cannot  say,  Anther  than  the  minutes 
say. 

Was  there  no  iiulher  step  taken  upon  it? — 
No. 

That  practice  continues  to  this  day  ?— There 
has  no  alteration  taken  place  that  I  know  of. 

[Bftr.  Ibbetson  withdrew.] 

Captain  Baillie  called  in  agaii^ 

Whether  you  know  who  instituted  this  cus- 
tom of  the  chalk-off  list — In  whose  time  was 
it  instituted  ? — ^It  was  before  my  time. 

Don't  you  know  who  vras  steward  of  the 

rHosnttal  when  it  was  instituted? — I  cannot 

weak  iroon  oath  to  tiiat,  1  believe  it  was  Mr. 

Bell,  a  tartaer  steward — ^it  was  done  before  I 

came  into  the  Hospital. 

Did  you  never  see  it  in  a  book  that  it  was 
Mr.  Bell? — I  have,  in  a  book  lately  published, 
called  '*  A  State  of  Facts,"  but  I  don't  know 
positively  that  that  is  the  fact,  because  I  see 
It  there  in  print.     [Captain  IbiiHie  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Ibbetson  called  in  again. 

Whether  or  not  you  think  that  the  giving  of 
mon^  instead  of  the  aUowuK:e  of  meal,  has 
been  the  means  of  increasins  drunkenness, 
idleness,  and  dissipation  in  the  Uospital  ? — For 
one,  I  cannot  conceive  that  it  has,  because,  if 
the  pensioners  had  been  permitted  to  eo  on, 
as  they  did  at  the  time  that  that  regiuation 
was  made,  which  is  now  upwards  of  50  years 
a^ ;  it  was  made,  I  tiunk,  in  the  year  1725,  it 
did  appear  then,  and  appears  upon  the  mi- 
nutes, I  believe,  on  the  books,  which  are  now 
upon  your  lordships'  table,  tlmt  the  reason  of 
wing  it  up  was,  tnat  the  pensioners  at  that 
time  took  their  provisions  and  sold  them  in 
the  neighbouring  villages  about  Greenwich, 
and  that  they  got  for  it  much  less  than  when 
that  regulation  afterwards  took  place,  to  sdl  it 
tothebutier;  ifthey  can  make  money  of  pro- 
visions, they  will,  with  that  money,  undoubt- 
edly buy  drmk^  if  they  are  inclined  to  do  so ; 
the  only  question  b,  whctiier  they  may  not  be 


enabled  to  buy  more,  because  they  have  a 
greater  allowance  for  it  from  the  Hospital. 

I  think  the  allowance  now  is  thi*ee  oxen  a 
week  on  beef  days? — ^I  don*t  )aaQw  any  thing 
of  the  detail  of  that. 

The  Earl  of  Sandwich.  Do  you  know  who 
was  the  contriver  of  this  chalk-off  list? — Of 
the  money  lists,  in  general,  Mr.  Bell;  the 
chalk-off,  I  ims^gine,  is  one  of  them ;  there  is 
a  minute  that  lies  now  upon  your  lordships' 
table  of  the  general  court,  where  Mr.  Bell, 
when  he  applied  for  superannuation,  hath 
enumerated  all  the  services  that  he  had  done 
to  Greenwich  Hospital;  there  was  a  printed 
memorial  handed  about  it,  but  the  substance 
of  it  is  entered  in  these  minutes;  among 
other  things  t^t  he  took  ciedit  and  merit  for, 
was  his  having  introduced  this  r^ulation  of 
the  pensioners  being  permitted  to  take  money 
in  lieu  of  provisions,  and  he  had  a  reward  of 
.500/.  given  him  by  the  general  court  for  his 
services,  that  among  the  rest. 

(Reaas.)  ^  At  a  general  court  held  at  the 
Admiralty,  November  17;  1761,  present  lord 
Anson,  Dr.  Hay,  &c.  &c. 

''  Resolved,  That  Mr.  Bell,  the  stewaid,  wha 
through  his  l^g  service,  great  age,  and  other 
infirmities,  is  become  incapable  of  perfomung 
the  duty  of  his  office,  be  superannuated  at 
100/.  per  annum  during  his  natural  Itfe,  &c. 
and  in  consideration  of  the  great  and  beneficial 
services  following  by  him  ^ne  and  perfoimed 
to  the  Hospital  during  his  stewaraship,  the 
Court  are  pleased  to  order  and  direct,  that  a 

Satuity  or  500/.  be  given  him  as  a  reward  for 
e  flame ;"  among  uie  rest  were  the  introduc- 
tion of  the  three  money  lists. 

At  what  time  was  the  institution  of  these 
charity  boys  ? — ^I  believe  about  the  year  1785. 

I  want  io  know  how  long  sJiier  the  institu- 
tion of  these  boys  it  was,  that  Mr.  Bell  had 
planned  iJtm  scheme  that  you  have  now  read 
for  the  better  maintenance  of  these  boys? — I 
betieve  it  was  about  the  very  time  tliat  the 
first  estabMshment  of  the  charity  boys  took 
place,  that  this  regulation  took  place. 

That  you  say  was  in  the  year  17«5. — ^Ycs. 

Does  it  appear  by  the  minutes  that  you  have 
before  you  there,  that  Mr.  Bell  had  then  the 
stewarcbhip  of  the  Hospital  ? — He  was  ap- 
pointed steward  in  1719,  and  continued  in  it 
till  1761. 

If  these  three  money  lists  were  abofttshed, 
must  not  the  boys  be  turned  out  of  the  Hos- 
pital, or  must  It  not  be  paid  out  of  the  revenue 
of  the  Hospital  ? — ^In  the  year  1778,  by  an  ac- 
count I  have  in  my  hand,  the  produce  that  is 
from  the  savings  arising  from  these  regukh~ 
tions.  was  ],65S/.  14i.  S^tL 

when  was  that  court  of  directors  held, 
when  they  recommended  the  consideration  of 
this  list  to  the  council  of  the  House  ? — ^I  think 
the  3d  of  August,  1776. 

The  minute  is,  **  The  board  of  directors  ob- 
serving the  irregularity ;"  was  tiiat  an  irregu- 
larity that  happened  just  at  that  time  ? — I  have 
already  said  I  was  abaeiMi  and  ill  in  the 


175}         rt9peeHng  the  Rog&l  Uo9pi$ia  tU  Grmmcieh.        A.D.  111$^ 


[174 


try  at  tfae  time  tim  happened;  my  clerk  n 
hoe,  if  the  House  wUl  permit  him  to  etre  any 
ftftfaier  infbnnation ;  this  is  as  it  stanos  on  the 
WBuies^  and  I  don't  know  the  reasons  why 
they  did  not  go  frrUier  into  the  enmihy .  I 
fctve  a&ked  my  clerk  about  it,  and  he  says 
tbey  tfaoti^t  it  would  be  taking  too  much  off 
mn  this  chanty  fundi 

I  think  vou  are  a  director? — ^No,  I  am  se-^ 
oetary  to  the  boardof  directors. 

Are  you  one  of  the  council? — ^Yes. 

Doa*t  you  think  it  part  of  your  duty  to  be 
attentive  to  the  economy  of  the  Hospital  ? — 
Undoubtedly. 

Then  don't  you  think  that  a  saving  made, 
the  consequence  of  which  is  drunkenness  and 
inmioralityy  is  a  species  of  such  economy 
which  you  think  not  undeserving  the  atten- 
tion of  the  board  of  directors  ? — I  must  first  be 
certain  that  it  is  the  fact,  and  that  it  is  the 
occasion  of  that  drunkenness  and  disorder  that 
is  stated  ;  I  am  by  no  means  certain  that  it  is. 

Were  you  present  at  that  council  thatuna^ 
nimously  repmented  that  it  was? — I  have  al- 
leady  said  I  was  absent  at  that  time^  and  in 
the  country. 

Whether  you  imagine  that  the  unanimous 
opimoD  of  the  council  is  likely  to  be  well  or 
91-fouiidedy  are  thev  proper  judges  of  it  ? — In- 
^eed,  I  shouki  think  they  are  proper  judges ; 
It  IS  not  impossible  if  I  had  been  tnere,  that  I 
miidit  have  concurred  in  the  opinion. 

What  ore  the  different  funds  that  produces 
tiie  charity  stock  ? — The  profits  arising  on  the 
provisions  bought  of  the  pensioners,  that  is 
Iheprincipal  one. 

What  do  you  call  the  provisions  bought  of 
the  pensioners?— The  men  that  take  money 
in  lieu  of  their  provisions. 

Is  that  the  money  list  ? — No,  the  money  list 
is  a  very  inconsiderable  part,  but  this  is  out  of 
my  department  very  much,  and  there  are  peo- 
ple in  the  House  tlutt  can  ^ve  your  lordsnips 
better  information. 

Who  are  those  persons? — The  steward,  I 
should  think,  and  tne  butler,  I  am  very  sure 
will  be  able  to  give  the  House  better  infor- 
mation. 

If  these  money  lists  were  annihilated,  whe- 
ther the  muntenance  of  the  boys  must  not 
come  imoD  the  revenue  of  the  Hospital  ? — Un- 
doubteol^,  or  their  number  must  be  dimimsh- 
ed ;  tha  mcome  is  more  than  the  expence  df 
them  a  Uttle,  but  if  you  take  away  1.600^  out 
of  9,900/.  or  9,300/.  which  is  the  whole  amount 
of  that  revemie,  your  lordships  must  easily 
conceive  that  must  decrease  the  number  of 
them,  or  supplies  must  be  raised  some  otiier 
way. 

Are  not  the  savings  of  these  several  lists  as 
much  the  revenue  of  the  Hospital  as  any 
other  part  of  it? — They  certdnly  may  be  ap- 
plied to  it. 

Are  they  not  part  of  the  revenue  of  the 
Hospita],  that  is  my  question  ?•— Not  a  part  of 
the  letenue  of  the  Hospital  that  has  ever  been 
sppfied  to-aoy  other  bmmess  but  thb  of  the 
koys.  t- 


Out  ei'whosepodket comes  this  money  that 
is  80  Bavtd  ? — ^rat  of  the  money  comes  from 
shewing  the  painted  hall  and  chapel ;  that 
might  be  appned  certainly  to  the  cnamtenanct 
of  pensioners  as  well  as  the  boys  ? 

That  is  a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  Hos- 
pital ? — Certainly. 

Out  of  what  revenue  comes  the  money  that 
is  saved  upon  the  Sfveral  lists  ?--Supposing 
every  man  was  to  take  up  his  provisions,  that 
saving,  which  is  now  a  profit  to  the  Hospital, 
would  be  in  the  butcher's  pocket,  by  supplying 
more  meat. 

It  might  be  in  the  butcher's  pocket,  but 
would  it  not  be  in  the  pensioners'  bellies  ^  Is 
not  the  fund  itself  the  revenue  of  the  Hospital, 
out  of  which  all  these  savings  come?-^I  dbn't 
understand  that. 

Is  it  not  the  fund  out  of  which  the  savings 
issue,  as  well  as  every  thing  else  ?  Is  not  that 
a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  Hospital  ? — This 
is  a  saving  that  arises  from  the  allowing  the 
pensioners  a  fiflh  part  less  than  what  is  the 
real  value  of  their  provisions. 

I  will  put  it  another  way;  suppose  7s.  a 
week  was  tfae  allowance  of  the  pensioner, 
would  that  7f .  be  a  part  of  the  revenue  or  not  r 
•^Undoubtedly. 

Then  suppose  bv  a  subsequent  order,  *1j; 
out  of  this  seven  should  be  converted  to  the 
maintenance  of  the  charity  boys,  that  is  apart 
of  the  revenue  ? — ^Undoubtedly. 

Then  the  Question  I  asked  is.  Are  not  the 
savings  a  part  of  the  revenue?— They  are  part 
of  the  revenue  now  of  Greenwich  Hosplta^^ 
appUed  in  this  particular  way. 

1  wanted  then  to  understand  that,  as  the 
noble  lord  asked  if  there  had  been  no  savings ; 
then  the  bovs  must  be  maintained  out  of  the 
revenue  of  the  Hospital? — If  this  custom  was 
abolished. 

Then  you  answered  they  must  be  maintain- 
ed out  of  the  revenues  of  the  Hospital  ? — If  this 
custom  was  abolished,  this  saving  of  1,000/.  a 
year,  would  be  lost  to  Greenwich  Hospital, 
then  if  that  was  lost,  it  must  be  suppliea  out. 
of  other  revenues  of  Greenwich  Hospital. 

But  still  they  are  both  the  revenues  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  ? — I  apprehend  this  sum 
would  not  be  a  part  of  the  revenue  in  any  way» 
if  you  abolish  the  practice,  the  revenue  would 
notarise. 

Is  it  any  thing  more  than  this,  that  'out  of 
the  allowance  of  the  pensioners,  you  take  so 
much  money  and  give  it  to  the  charity  boys  ? 
— But  it  is  not  taking  it  from  the  revenue  of 
the  Hospital,  and  giviQgittothe  ch«ity  boys. 

Why,  the  whole  is  th^  revenues  of  the  Hos- 
pital ;  are  nbi  the  chari^  boys  part  of  the  ori-^ 
ginal  institution  ? — No,  the  charity  boys  are 
an  excrescence. 

Then  I  believe  you  have  not  read  the  act  of 
the  17th  of  king  Willkm,  because  I  find  in 
that  acL  they  fue  part  of  the  original  institu* 
tion?— i  can  i^ew  the  minutes  of  the  first  es- 
tablishment of  these  boys ;  the  directors  found 
that  there  were  some  little  prefits  arising  from 


175] 


18  GEORGE  IIL  The  Case  ^  Capain  Thonuu  SailUe,         [17G 


shewing  the  painted-haU,  the  mulcts  of  pen- 
sionerSy  and  meir  cheaues ;  that  it  amounted 
to  something,  and  tney  asked  the  general 
court  if  thev  might  not  apply  it  to  the  main- 
tenance of  the  sons  of  the  pensioners. 

Was  that  the  first  commencement  of  it  ? — It 
was. 

I  am  very  sorry  for  it,  for  it  was  the  original 
institution  by  that  act  of  parliament ;  the  Doys 
have  the  same  right  u^n  the  act  to  a  main- 
tenance as  the  pensioners  have;  when  were 
the  boys  established  ? — I  think  about  the  year 
1795,  I  am  not  quite  certain;  it  was  a  great 
while  after  the  institution. 

Mav  not  these  pensioners  that  are  put  upon 
the  chalk-off  list  at  their  option,  be  put  off 
of  it  whenever  they  please  ?-r-I  understand 
that  it  is  by  no  means  compulsory. 

Do  vou  know  whether  they  may  be  put  off 
upon  their  application  ? — I  understand  so. 

Suppose  they  all  received  their  provisions 
in  meat,  is  there  room  for  them  todme  P — ^No, 
I  understand  that  the  two  dining  halls  will  not 
accommodate  more  than  1,200. 

Then  to  go  a  httle  further,  how  lone  ag;o  b 
it  since  more  than  600  could  dine  P—AVithin 
6  or  7  years:  since  lord  Sandwich  has  been  at 
the  Adnuraity,  a  new  dining-hall  has  been 
fitted  up,  which  has  accomm<raated  600  more. 
'  Was  It  not  the  custom  that  600  people  dined 
in  the  hall,  and  that  they  were  obliged  to  he 
hurried  away  from  their  dinner,  ancf  then  600 
people  came  to  their  diet  in  the  same  hall  to 
dine  upon  their  table  ? — I  understand  that  to 
have  been  the  practice. 

Then  bv  whose  interposition  was  it,  that  an 
additional. hall  was  formed,  that  enabled  1,900 
people  to  dine  at  the  same  time  at  different 
tables? — I  was  absent  when  that  came  under 
consideration,  but  I  understood  it  was  firom  a 
survey  lord  Sandwich  made  of  Greenwich 
Hospital;  his  lordship  found  this  place  as 
suitable  as  the  other,  for  it  is  just  a  similar 
buildine  to  it,  and  it  was  ordered  to  be  fitted 
up,  ancT  it  is  now  as  complete  as  the  other, 
and  holds  as  many  people. 

If  the  pensioners  diet  not  some  of  them  re- 
ceive money  instead  of  provisions,  must  they 
not  return  to  that  custom  of  dining,  either  in 
the  open  air,  or  of  coming  and  dinmg  at  the 
tables  where  those  other  people  had  dined  ? — 
Undoubtedly,  because  there  are  only  1,900 
out  of  2,100  that  can  be  accommodated.   . 

Acquaint  the  Committee  if  you  know  what 
the  different  funds  are.  firom  whence  the  cha- 
rity stock  arises?— Tne  profits  arising  from 
the  sale  of  those  provisions. 

I  want  to  know  what  you  mean  by  the  sale 
'of  provisions,  is  that  the  money  list,  or  is  any 
other  list  included?— It  means  the  buUer's- 
list  and  chalk-off  Ust;  I  apprehend  it  b  con- 
fined to  those  two ;  the  money  list,  I  appre- 
hend, as  near  as  I  can  calculate  it ;  they  iuive 
the  fi^ll  value  of  the  provisions,  consequently 
there  is  no  saving  to  the  Hospital,  but  that  is 
a  veiy  small  part ;  the  butler's  Ust  is  the  prin- 
cipal thingi  every  man  who  chooses  it  goes  to 


the  buUer,  and  may  take  money  in  lieu  of  pro- 
visions. 

We  have  had  that  explained;  I  desire  to 
know,  when  you  say  the  first  article,  finom 
whence  the  charity  stock  arises,  is  the  provf- 
sions  boueht,  what  are  the  articles  you  in- 
clude in  that,  do  you  mean  the  butlerfs  list 
and  cl^k-off  list,  or  only  one  of  them  ?-^Both 
of  them. 

Do  ^ou  know  the  proportions  that  those 
two  articles  produce  ?— I  ao  not. 

Do  you  know  the  sum  total  that  both  pro- 
duce?— In  this  paper,  which  is  of  what  it 
produced  in  1778,  it  is  1,65?/.  14s.  another 
mnd  is  the.monev  collected  for  shewing  Uie 
Painted  Hall,  ana  the  chapel;  when  there 
was  a  chapel,  that  produced  clear  to  the  cha- 
rity, (for  the  porter^  has  a  fourth  part  of  it) 
the  otner  three-fourths,  in  the  year  1778,'pn>- 
duced  753/.  Bf.  4id.  then  there  is  8,000/;  in 
Old  and  New  South  Sea  annuities,  which 
bears  an  interest  of  three  per  cent  and  8,5001. 
South  Sea  stock. 

How  did  that  stock  arise  ? — From  savings ; 
the  fimds  for  the  boys  were  more  than  suffi- 
cient for  their  maintenance,  and  the  surplus 
has  been  invested,  firom  time  to  time,  in  Uie 
fimds,  on  their  account 

Then  I  understand  from  you  that  there  are 
several  sums  of  money  in  the  stocks,  amouQt- 
ing  to  about  14,000/.  ?— Sixteen  thousand  five 
hundred  pounds. 

Which  are  savings  th^t  have  been  made  out 
of  the  fimds  which  were  applicable  to  that 
charity  for  the  maintenance  of  the  boys,  ig 
that  so  ? — ^Yes,  it  is. 

How  is  the  interest  of  that  applied  again  ? 
---To  the  maintenance  of  the  chanty  boys  ;  it 
forms  a  part  of  their  fund. 

Do  you  not  look  upon  that  stock  to  belons 
to  Greenwich  Hospital  ?— It  is  a  separate  finna 
that  is  kept  for  the  boys. 

Don't  you  imacine  that  the  general  court 
might  apply  that  fund  for  any  other  purpose 
of  the  charity,  if  they  thought  proper  ? — Un- 
doubtedly. 

Then  what  other  funds  are  there  that  pro- 
duce the  revenues  of  this  charity  ? — Another 
fiind,  which,  in  the  vear  1778,  produced 
168/.  Sf.  4|</.  was,  the  absences,  cheques,  and 
mulcts. 

What  did  those  cheques  and  mulcts  arise 
firom  ? — When  a  pensioner  is  absent  without 
leave,  he  is  chequed  of  his  provisions,  and  I 
apprehend  that  he  is  charged  to  the  Hospital 
as  victualled,  but  that  the  amount  of  his  pro- 
visions goes  to  the  charity  stock. 

What  are  the  mulcts? — Mulcts  are  put 
upon  the  men  for  various  misdemeanors, 
small  mulcts.     -. 

Are  there  any  other  articles  ? — Here  is  in 
this  accoimt,  the  produce  of  some  old  shoes 
which  were  sold,  which  applied  to  that  stock, 
that  amounted  to  10/.  Inere  is  money  be- 
loxmng  to  a  deceased  pensioner,  put  into  the 
stock  by  order  of  the  council ;  it  is  a  rule,  if 
a  pensioner  dies  without  a  will,  and  there  L» 


17^        ttipeMng  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Greeniaich.         A.  D.  177B. 


[lYS 


DobodjiodEim-what  he  has  left,  it-is  put  into 

the  stewud's  hands  to  be  apptied  to  the  cha- 
nts stock,  Subject  to  be  restoied^  io  case 
tbore  ife  ti^  dainant. 

b  there  any  more  P— -No. 

Nmr,  with  r^ard  to  the  application  of  this 
money,  how  much  was  the  total  produce  of 
the  revenues  of  the  charity  stock  for  that  year  ? 
—Two  thousand  five  hundred  and  thirty-four 
pounds^  if  I  have  cast  it  right. 

How  was  tiiat  applied,  in  Che  course  of  that 
5W?— Here  are  the  particulars  of  the  applica^ 
tioBofit. 

Is  that  account  lona?--Yes. 

Is  there  any  of  that  fund  applied  to  any 
other  purpose  than  the  muntenance  of  the 
bojrs?— There  are  some  of  the  officers  of  the 

nital,  myself  among  the  rest,  that  have 
additiuns  to  their  salaries  out  of  that 
fimd,  m  omsideiution  of  the  extraordinary 
Mobie  that  we  have  on  account  of  that  busi- 
ness ;  the  steward  has  %0i,  for  his  trouble ; 
he  has  a  great  deal  of  business. 

Be  so  good  as  read  the  list  of  those  officers, 
asdtbesalariea  that  they  have  out  of  it?— 
The  persons  that  are  employed  about  the  cha^ 
litj  boys  and  have  their  salaries,  or  additions 
t»  other  salaries,  paid  out,  are,  the  schoolmas- 
ter has  too/,  a  year,  the  surgeon  an  allowance 
of  so/,  a  year,  the  clerk  of  me  cheque  has  10 
guineas  a  year,  the  clerk  of  Waterman  Vhall 
10  euineas  a  year ;  the  clerk  of  Waterman's- 
haliiised  to  'be  employed  upon  the  business  I 
am  ftoing  to  state  to  your  lordships ;  there  is 
noUier  person  now  employed,  a  person  living 
ia  LiMxlon,  in  order  to  go  on  board  ships,  to 
see  whether  the  boys  tlmt  are  bound  out  are 
really  belonging  to  those  ships,  and  to  keep  up 
atorrespon&Dce  with  the  clerk  of  the  cheque, 
relative  to  that  business.  The  dispenser  nas 
10/.  his  joumeyman  has  10/^,  the  steward's 
int  clerk  10/.,  tiie  clerk  of  the  cheque's  first 
derk  has  10/.,  the  guardian's  salary  lo/.,  and 
three  assistants  5/.  each,  five  nurses  15/. 
each,  two  helpers  6/.  each,  a  person  for  teach- 
vg  vsahnody  to  the  boys  5/.,  that  particular 
<Wwymeat  is  now  abolished;  the  chapel 
derk  U^  and  the  sexton  S/.  Since  this  esta- 
bhshment,  the  steward  has  had  20/.,  myself 
^i  I  think  the  two  chaplains  have  had 
their  salaries  increased  30/.  each,  which  is 
fiid  out  of  that  stock,  and  that  is  the  ^hole 
that  I  recollect.  ' 

Whether  these  addhtional  salaries,  that  you 
have  mentwned,  are  to  be  paid  out  of  the 
charit;^  stock  at  all  events,  or  only  in  case 
*tte  tsasurphis? — ^Upon  my  word  I  don't 
know  how  they  would  be  paid,  if  there  v«ras 
not  a  surplus. 

There  18  nothing  of  thaif  sort  in  the  warrant 
^directions? — It  Is  ordered  to  be  paid  out  of 
^  charity  ntodk-^  I  should  hope  and  ima|^e 
they  would  think '  it  veiy  reasonable  to  p^  it 
m  of  some  mher  iiind,  if  there  ia  not  suifi- 
aentia'that* 

Who  are  the  Tteitods  that  h^tcl  1»ie  diulbts 
^9tm  themcn^^he.<^M9BBil  in  Moeral. 

VOL  XXL 


And  how  many  of  these  gentlemen  have 
seats  M  the  council  ?— I  believe  only  four, 
that  have  any  allowance  out  of  the  charity 
stock ;  the  two  chaplains,  the  steward,  and 
myself. 

Have  there  been  any  savings  of  this  charity 
stock  lately,  that  have  been  vested  in  the 
stocks  to  increase  that  fund  f — ^Not  very  lately, 
on  account  of  Mr.  Ellis's  deiiciencv ;  it  is  aa 
muth  as  the^  haVe  been  able  to  cio  to  keep 
above  water,  if  I  may  so  say ;  his  deficiency 
was  near  a  thousand  pounds  upon  this  stocky 
and  they  have  built  a  school-house  since  that, 
which  might  cost  5  or  600/.  or  more,  so  that 
has  taken  away  a  good  part  of  what  would 
otherwise  have  been  a  saving,  and  woidd 
otherwise  have  been  invested  in  the  funds. 

What  is  the  particular  use  these  eentle;nieA 
are  to  the  boys,  who  you  mentioned,  I  think, 
had  some  extraordinary  trouble }  Is  that  ex« 
traordinary  trouble  greater  than  before  the  al- 
lowance was  made  f — I  don't  know  Uiat  it  is 
greater. 

What  is-  the  extraordinary  trouble  that  the 
chaplains  are  at,  more  than  they  used  to  be  f 
—I  cannot  speak  to  that. 

Does  the  chaplain  catechise  the  boys?«- 
Yes,  he  does. 

How  often  ?— I  don't  know  how  often,  by 
their  instrue^ons,  they  are  to  do  it. 

I  doh't  ask  what  he  is  bound  to  do,  but  what 
you  know  he  does? — ^I  don't  know  that  he 
does  it. 

Captain  Bailiie  again. 

I  would  ask  you  relative  to  the  charity 
stock ;  do  you  know  what  funds  it  arises  from  ? 
— From  the  ftmds  Mr.  Ibbetson  has  describ- 
ed, but  in  some  points  I  think  rather  a  little 
different;  it  arises  from  the  butler's  list,  the 
chalk-oflTlist,  and  the  mulcts  and  the  cheques 
of  pensioners;  not  only  from  the  pensioners 
that  are  absent  without  leave,  the  pensioners 
never  have  any  leave  of  absence  without  being 
chequed,  unless  it  is  for  one  single  day ;  if  a 
pefisionergoea  down  to  Chatham,  to  receive 
tTie  remains  of  anv  little  pension  that  may  be 
due  to  him  fit>m  the  chest  of  Chatham,  if  it 
is  only  for  four  days,  though  he  is  obliged  to 
borrow  the  money  perhaps  to  carry  him  down 
to  Chatham,  in  the  mpn  time  he  is  chequed 
for  the  benefit  of  the  charity  stock ;  it  appears 
to  me,  on  that  account,  to  be  very  hostile  to 
the  pensioners. 

what  are  these  charity  boys ?  Are  they  tHe 
children  of  disabled  seamen,  or  the  children 
of  seamen  maimed,  drowned^  or  killed  in  the 
service? — I  believe  they  don't  in  any  way 
confine  it  to  that ;  for  I  have  known  a  clerk 
of  a  yacht  have  four  children  in  Greenwich 
Hospital;  it  is  not  confined  to  the  sons  of 
seamen  kiHed^  drowned,  disabled,  or  dead  in 
the*  service.     - 

Who  appomt  these  boys  ?•— The  directors. 

^        Mr.  Soawrd  called  iflu 

Are  you  the  butler  ?-**Ye9» 

.  N 


179] 


IB  GEORGE  III.         The  Case  of  Captain  Thmoi  BaiOie^         X'SO 


'  Give  an  account  of  the  produce  of  the  but- 
.ler's  list  ?-^Thc  produce  of  the  butler's  list, 
together  with  the  chalk-off  list,  aBiounts  to 
.about  120/.  a  month. 

I  bee  to  have  them  separated  f — The 
chalk-off  list  amounts  to  about  350/.  or  370/. 
•a  year. 

What  does  the  butler's  list  produce  per 
annum  ? — About  800/. 

So  that  the  whole  produces  about  1,900/,  a 
year  ^-r-Better  than  that,  because  there  is 
^dieese ;  the  men  are  paid  for  cheese^  as  well 
as  their  meat,  every  seven  da^s.     . 

What  does  the  money  list  produce?— I 
cannot  say^  that  is  not  in  my  department. 

You  said  something  about  tne  cheese  ? — 
They  are  paid,  every  seven  ^days,  money  in 
lieu, of  their  cheese ;  there  are  about  1,S00 
men  victualled  at  the  tables ;  800  have  meat, 
and  400  have  money  alternately,  and  are  paid 
every  seven  days  for  their  cheese. 
.  Does  the  butler's  list  include  every  article  ? 
— ^Itdoes,  except  beer;  the  chalk-on  is  about 
570,  the  cheese,  about  500,  tifid  the  butler's 
list  perhaps  may  be  about  600. 

Is  the  cheese  thai  part  of  the  chalk-off 
list? — Yes;  the  people  who  have  money  in 
lieu  of  provisions,  are  not  coippelled  16  take 
flaoney  m  lieu  of  their  provisions ;  I  spoke  to 
them  to-day  upon  that  account,  in  case  they 
^ould  have  any  thing  to  say. 

Do  I  understand  you  right,  that  the  cheese 
alone,  without  the  mea^  produce  500/.  a 
year  ? — ^I  believe  it  does. 

And  the  meat  d60/.?~Ves,  it  is  in  the 
whole  about'  1 ,600/.  I  only  mention  this  iirom 
remembrance;  I  have  not  the  list. 
.  Did  not  you  say  you  told  them  to-day  about 
this? — ^U^hen  I  paid  them  their  money  for 
their  meat,  I  asked  them  whether  they  chose 
to  have  their  meat  or  their  money,  because  I 
told  them  I  believed  I  shoidd  be  called  before 
this  honourable  House  to-day,  to  give  an  ao- 
count  of  their  chalk-off,  and  I  wished  to  know 
whether  they  chose  to  have  their  meat  or 
their  money;  the^  begged  of  me  that  I  would 
present  it,  at  their  request,  that  they  migjht 
have  meat  two  days,  and  be  paid  ior  it  uie 
third. 

Did  it  stand  otherways  before  than  only  by 
choice  ? — No,  always  by  choice. 

[Mr.  Saward  withdrew.] 

'Captain  Baillie  called  in  again. 

What  do  you  know  of  any  additional  salaty 
being  ^ven  to  an  <H^uust? — ^I  only  knoiw 
that  the  organist  has  had  an  additional  ap- 
pointment within  this  short  time. 

Is  it  a  new  office  ? — Entirely  a  new  office. 

What  does  he  do  for  it? — Be  ^teaches  the 
pharity  boys  to  sing  hymns  by  note. 

Does  tluit  office  seem  to  he  nepessary  ? — ^J 
thjnk  it  quite  foreign  from  tbfi  ediicat^on  of  a 
boy  intended  for  fie  sea  service ;  the  elder 
pensioners  axle  many  of  them  ftmd  of  singing 
psalms;  by  this  pewxegulatiqfiy  Iho  meo  are 


deprived  of  that  part  of  their  devotbns  in  a 
great  measure. 

Do  you  know  what  salary  this  ox»nist  has  f 
— I  believe  SO/,  a  year,  over  and  wove  what 
he  had  before. 

What  had  he  befoire  ? — ^I  believe  40L  as 
omnist 

Did  he  attend  before,  and  play  the  oigan  ? 
— ^Yes. 

And  he  has  20/.  additional  salaiy  forteach- 
ingthe  boys  ?•— Yes. 

They  are  not  taught  the  usual  way  of  sing^ 
ing  the  old  psalm^y  ?— They  sing  by  oote^ 
not  the  psalms,  but  hymns. 

Where  does  the  organbt  reside? — ^In  the 
town  of  Greenwich;  he  is  not  lodged  in  the 
Hospital. 

You  mention  this  ta  a  new  institution ;  ho# 
long  is  it  since  the  oifpanist  has  been  appoint- 
ed ? — ^I  mean  the  instituti^  of  a  new  organist 
to  teach  the  boys;  thatwaswhatlalludedto. 

You  did  not  mean  then  that  the  organist  is 
a  new  institution  ? — ^No,  I  did  not. 

Give  an  account  to  the  Committee  of  what 
abuses  you  know  of  h&ving  existed  relative  to 
clothing,  such  as  sho^  stockings,  linen,  beds  , 
and  washihg? — The  washing,  for  a  great 
many  years  last  past,  I  don't  say  within  this 
vear  or  two  particularly,  but  for  seteral  yean^ 
nas  be^n  notoriously  bad;  insomuch,  that 
one  never  sees  a  pensioner  with  a  dean  shirt 
on. 

But  what , complaints  have  you  had? — I 
have  had  a  great  many  complaints  of  it ;  I 
beg  leave  to  refer  to  the  minutes  of  the 
coimcil. 

Mr.  Ball  reads  the  Minutes. 

**  At  a  pouncil  held  in  the  Royal  Hospital  for 
seamen  at  Greenwich,  January  16, 1778. 

''The  nurses,  Bolton,  Hendy,  and  Roeey 
having  compluned  to  tiie  council,  that  the 
linen  oelonsing  to  the  men  under  their  car^ 
was  very  baaly  washed^  and  not  fit  to  be  deli- 
vered to  the  pensioners;  and  the  fbilowinc 
pensioners,  viz.  William  Sedden,  John  Foi«^ 
Aaron  Johnson,  Andrew  Wilson,  Thomas 
Rapely,  Dennis  Donovan,  Christopher  Cle- 
ments, Allen  M'Donald,  and  several  others^ 
declared,  the^  were  obli^  to  wash  their  ow& 
linen  afler  it  came  from  the  laundry;  and 
having  produced  th^r  shirts,  stocks,  towel% 
&c.  and  the  same  having  been  inspected  bj 
the  council,  anpeatedbad^  washed,  dkty  and 
of  a  disafireeabie  smell ;  sind  the  nurses  being 
examined  to  know  whether  they  had  cook 
plained  to  the  matron,  answered,  they  bad» 
out  that  the  linen  was  always  retumed  in  the 
same  manner;  and  they  had  likewiae  oon^ 
plained  to  the  contractor,  threatening  te  ap« 
peal  to  the  officers  and  oouhcil  of  the  Houai^ 
and  that  he  replied,  that  the  council  luii 
nothing  to  do  with  it^  and  that  il  was  on^ 
the  matron'*  business  to  kmeot  into  it ;  and 
it  appearing  to  the  council  that  the  compiaint 
ia  jiffit  and  welMountMb  Mid  the  waahinig  the 
pensignen' Jioen  equiOy  bid  throughout  the 


J817      ntpfcAig  the  Rojfol  HoBpUal  at  Greemokh.        A.  D.'  1778. 


[182 


Eospitily  the  matrons  are  therefore  hereby  I 
dnteiei  not  to  give  cert^cates  for  any  linen 
tbit  is  not  really  ckan  and  well  washed. — Bf 
Older  of  the  council,  Daniel  Ball." 

Captain  But/Zte  again. 

Was  any  thing  of  tins  represented  to  the 
fioard  of  mreciors  ? — I  don*t  know  that  that 
minute  wzs;  I  have  been  quite  tired  out  in 
lepresentiiig  matters  which  nave  not  been  re- 
dressed; it  has  been  a  general  received  opi- 
moD  in  the  Hospital^  it  has  been  inculcated 
into  almost  every  officer  of  the  house,  that 
the  council  of  the  house  for  naval  officers  had 
nothii^  to  do  but  to  discipline  the  pensioners, 
to  pumsh  them  when  they  are  refiactory,  but 
not  to  be  their  guardians  or  protectors  in  any 
other  way;  that  respecting  their  provisionS| 
washing,  and  bedding,  it  is  the  deoartment 
of  the  steward  and  the  clerk  of  the  cheque. 

Have  you  othei"  instances  to  produce  of 
complaints  having  been  made  of  tne  badness 
of  the  washing? — There  is  scarce  a  pensioner 
cf  Greenwich  Hospital  but  can  speak  to  that 
•tfclcj  I  will  refer  to  one  Jolm  Glass,  if  your 
Mships  please  to  call  him  in  ;  he  hsis  rnade 
many  complaints;  it  was  the  same  in  my 
predecessors  time ;  complaints  were  made  to 
the  council  then,  but  I  believe  it  was  not  en- 
tocd  upon  their  books ;  'it  was  ssdd  the  coun- 
cil had  nothine  to  do  with  ^ese  matters^ 
captain  Allwright  can  tell  your  lordships  about 
the  linen,  if  you  please. 

You  may  jgo  through  any  other  article. — To 
my  certain  laiowledge.  the  men's  shoes  and 
^kings  don't  last  them  half  the  time ;  I 
have  had  many  hundred  complaints  concern- 
ing the  shoes  and  stockings  from  different 
prasioncrs. 

Have  you  made  complaints  of  that  to  the 
««ctors?-.No;  I  thmk  it  is  the  duty  of  the 
officers  to  apply  to  the  Admiralty ;  the  coun- 
cil and  board  of  directors  are  to  be  a  check 
'Jpon  jBach  other,  as  I  humblv  conceive. 

Have  you  complained  to  the  Admiral^  ? — ^I 
c«nnot  sav  I  have  in  my  own  person  particu- 
^rly.  I  nave  mentioned  it  at  the  council, 
hot  they  have  had  a  majority  there  not  to  lay 
11  hefiwe  the  Admiralty. 
,  Is  there  any  minute  of  the  council  respect- 
ing the  shoes  and  stockings? — ^I  believe  we 
can  refer  to  the  minutes  of  the  council  re- 
^^cctmg  that  matter;  as  to  the  shoes  served 
to^  pensioners,  it  cannot  be  expected  that 
^qr  should  last  the  time;  they  have  only 
^^  pair  allowed  for  two  years ;  and  whilst 
w  pnce  of  leather  has  been  increasing,  the 
wntract  price  of  shoes  has  been  reducecT  In 
«c  hst  contract  before  this,  I  believe  they 
J^  only  three  shillings  and  seven-pence 
^^penny  a  pair ;  and  to  my  certain  know- 
jjd^  at  the  work-house  in  the  town  of 
Greenwich,  they  allow  four  shillings  and  six- 
Mr.  Bail  reads  aMinuie  of  the  Council  of  the 
16tb  of  July,  1777. 
"  fntegx,  lieiitBMBt^ovcnM>r  BaiUiey^- cap- 


tain Allwright,  captain  Chads,  lieutenant 
Answell,  captain  Lynn,  lieutenant  Moyle. 
Thomas  Frencham  having  complained  to  the 
council  of  his  stockings,  that  one  pair  of  the 
two  served  him  at  the  last  serving,  that  is  in 
Mav  last,  were  worn  out  in  a  fortnight,  which 
ouglit  to  have  lasted  eight  months,  and  that 
the  other  pair  were  much  womi  in  the  samtf 
time,  which  he  produced  before  the  council ; 
and  John  Robinson,  and  several  others,  hav- 
ing also  complained  that  their  stockings  which 
they  now  have,  are  much  inferior  to  what  thev 
uaed  to  have ;  and  it  appearing  to  the  council, 
that  these  complaints  are  justly  founded,  or- 
dered, that  a  co^jr  of  this  minute  be  sent  to 
the  steward, 'desirinv  he  would  lay  the  same 
before  the  board  ofdirectors  for  their  infor- 
fliation,  that  the  necessary  measures  may  be 
taken  for  redressing  the  men.  By  order  bf 
the  council,  Daki£l  Ball.'' 

Mr.  Gadlnfy  (the  Steward)  sworn. 

Did  you  recfttve  a  copy  of  the  minutes  of 
the  council  the  18th  of  July,  1777,  to  lay  be- 
fore the  eouH  of  directors? — ^I  did. 

Did  you  lay  them  before  the  board  of  direc- 
tors } — ^I  did  not 

What  was  the  reason  ?— Upon  my  clerk's 
informing  ihe  that  there  was  an  order  of 
council  for  me  to  do  that,  I  told  him  I  had  done 
it  already,  and  that  Mr.  Baillie,  who  was  at 
the  head  of  the  counci),  was  at  the  board 
when  I  reoresented  the  matter  of  the  subject 
of  the  stocxings  to  the  board. 

Do  you  imagine  that  a  representation  from 

you,  as  an  individual,  would  have  the  same 

weight  with  the  board  as  the  unanimous  re- 

^  presentation  of  the  coundl  ? — ^I  think  it  oug;bt 

'  to  have  more  weight,  as  it  was  my  particular 

du^  to  attend  to  it. 

Do  you  think  yourself  authorized,  when  you 
receive  directions  from  the  council  to  lay  their 
complaint  before  the  board  of  directors,  to 
refuse  to  do  it? — ^As  the  matter  had  been  al- 
ready represented  and  remedied  as  much  as 
the  boara  could  possibly  do  at  that  time. 

Had  you  ever  laid  those  very  complaints 
that  are  represented  in  that  order  of  council, 
before  the  Doard  ?-— That  very  cdmplaint,  the 
complaint  of  the  same  stockings  delivered 
some  time  in  the  latter  end  of  May,  there 
were  about  500  pair  of  stocking  delivered  in 
for  the  use  of  the  pensioners ;  it  being  a  large 
quantity,  I  had  no  place  in  my  store-rooms  to 
lodee  them,  they  were  lodeed  in  the  Painted- 
hall,  all  the  day  before  they  were  delivered 
out  to  the  pensioners ;  when  the  officer  cwne 
down  to  assist  in  delivering  out  these  stbck^ 
ings,  I  attended  in  person  to  examine  thes<& 
stocidngs;  upon  looking  over  some  in  the 
iront  they  appeared  tolerably  good  and  near 
the  pattern,  and  I  began  to  serve  them:  the 
derk  of  the  cheque  and  his  clerk,  or  both^ 
were  with  me;  after  about  900  pair^were 
served  out,  I  discovered  that  they  were  not 
equsd  to  the  pattern.  I  got  upon  the  bench^ 
and  took  smae  down ;  I  examined  them  iby« 


ISS] 


IS  GSORGE  m.  The  Case  tfCt^Uun  Thmoi  BmUie,        (Wk 


fielL  and  immediately  ordered  the  Hall  doors 
to  De  shut,  ^  and  stopped  some  ^t  had  got 
stockingSj  and  in  that  very  dav  it  was  cried, 
for  the  men  to  return  the  stockings  that  had 
got  them  ;  a  few  days  ader  there  was  a  board 
of  directors;  I  represented  the  matter  to 
them^  and  receivea  theiir  orders  how  to 
proceed. 

What  were  these  orders  ?  What  was  done 
in  pursuance  of  tliis  P — I  believe  the  minutes 
of  board  will  shew  that. 

Mf.  Ibbetson  reads. 

<<  On  the  2l8t  of  Ma^,  1777,  the  steward 
having  represented  by  his  letter  of  this  date, 
that  ihe  contractor  for  hose  lately  deUvered  500 
dozen,  great  part  of  which  appeared  much 
coarser  than  the  pattern,  haa  saved  some 
which  were  produced,  &c. 

■  '<  The  contractor  was  called  in  and  ques- 
tioned, how  he  came  to  serve  them ;  he  said 
the  stockings  were  much  thicker,  stronger, 
-and  of  more  value  than  the  pattern,  though 
not  so  fine.- 

^*  Ordered,  That  the  steward  cause  as  many 
to  be  selected  of  the  best,  as  there  were  some 
good,  as  will  be  sufficient  to  supply  the  men 
with  two  pitir  each ;  the  rest  lo  be  returned  to 
the  contractor." 

Q.  to  Captain  Baillie,  You  have  heard  what 
Mr.  Godby  has  said  about  thi^,  that  the  same 
complaint  you  made,  and  which  was  stated  in 
that  order  of  the  council,  had  been  made  by 
him,  to  that  board  of  directors,  when  you  were 
present,  and  that  he  told  you  ^t  was  the 
Teason  he  would  not  prefer  the  complaint 
again? — A.  That  was  in  May,  the  other  was 
on  the  18th  of  July  1777 ;  the  pensioners, 
iirst,  I  understand,  would  not  receive  them  in 
tlie  Painted-hall. 

Were  they  the  same  stockings  that  were  de- 
livered in  May  ?— These  are  the  stockings  that 
the  men  complained  of  that  were  delivered  in 
May. 

il.  to  Mr.  IbbetsoiK.  The  complaint  it  ap- 
pears^ by  that  minute,  is  the  Slst  of  Mav; 
does  It  not  appear  by  the  minutes,  that  the 
stockings  which  were  found  to, be  not  equal 
to  the  pattern,  were  notwithstanding  that  de- 
liver^, that  there  was  such  a  direction  given, 
that  such  as  were  good  and  sufficient  should 
be  ddivexed. — **  Oraered,  That  the  steward  do 
cause  as  many  of  the  best  of  them  to  be  se- 
lected as  will  be  sufficient  to  provide  each 
/Dian  with  two  pair,  the  rest  tp  be  returned  to 
the  contractor.'' 

Then,  do  you  imagine  that,  according  to 
that  order,  ,tluit  any  thing  but  the  best,  and 
such  as  were  sufficient  and  good  for  the  men, 
ought  to  be  delivered  ? — Undoubtedly  not. 

Now  will  Mr.  Godby  be  so  good  as  read 
that  part  of  the  complamt  made  afierwaids  in 
Juhr? 

ISr.  IbhetioH.    I  beg  to  be  ^mderstood  in 
tibat  last  part  of  it ;  the  order  directs,  tbfA  the 
|>est  of  them  that  could  be  selected. 
.  X)o  jou  understand  that  the  t>^t  of  them 


were  to  be  delivered  wbefter  good  or  bad? — ^I 
do  certainly  understaad  t^s  minute,  that  the 
best  that  could  be  selected,  to  the  amount  of 
two  pair  to  each  man. 

^  Do  you  imagine  that  the  court  of  directora, 
in  givmg  that  order,  meant  that  any  thing 
should  be  given  that  were  not  serviceable  for 
the  men  ?  Read  the  order  and  see  who  were 
present?— Sir  Charles  Hardy,  captam  Baillie, 
captain  Hood,  Mr.  Stuart,  sir  tercy  Brett^ 

Mr. ,  sir  Peter  Dennys,  Mr.  Hicks^ 

and  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke.    [Reads  the  Order.! 

Then  I  ask  you,  should  you  have  thought 
yourself  warranted  under  tliat  order,  in  which 
order  is  stated,  that  those  which  w«re  different 
from  the  pattern  were  stronger  and  bettej,  fo 
have  delivered  any  to  the  men  that  were  not 
fit  for  their  use  ? — I  should  have  looked  upoa 
myself  as  authorised  by  that  order  to  bave 
selected  the  best  of  them,  let  their  qualily 
have  been  what  it  would,  and  to  have  issued 
of  those  best,  two  pair  a  man. 

And  should  you  have  thought  yourself  au^- 
thorised  so  to  luive  done,  without  representing 
to  the  directprs  that  they  were  bad?--rlf  Ihaa 
found  any  extremely  bad,  I  certainly  should 
have  represented  that  to  the  board  of  directors. 

Q.  to  Captain  BailUe,  I  wanted  to  know 
whether  you  objected  to  the  order  of  the 
board  respecting  the  selecting  two  pair  per 
man  out  of  that  bad  quantity.— il.  I  did ;  I 
said  that  the  people  could  not  be  so  much 
distressed  for  stockings,  because  they  had  not 
returned  their  old  stockings.  I  made  use  of 
this  particulau*  argument  I  am  going  to  use 
now;  I  said,  that  the  men  could  not  be  dis- 
tressed for  a  week  or  a  fortnight,  because 
they  had  their  old  stockings,  which  were 
made  of  double  yam,  and  were  stronger  than 
the  new. 

Q.  to  Mr.  Ball.  Read  the  order  of  council, 
the  18th  of  July,  1777.— Mr.  Ball  reads  the 
order.  ^ ' 

Q.  to  Mr.  Godby,  Do  you  imderstand  that 
your  having  complained  to  the  board  of  di- 
rectors, that  the  stockings  were  originally 
bad,  and  they,  had  in  conseauence  oF  that, 
upon  an  enquiry,  been  told,  that  they  were, 
though  a  dinerent  quahty,  stronger,  and  in 
many  respects  better  than  the  pattern ;  they 
having  directed  you  to  deliver  out  two  pair  of 
the  best,  do  you  think  that  a  complaint, 
stating,  that  these  stockings,  which  hao  been 
delivered  in  May.  were  excessive  bad,  and«. 
that  they  had  not  lasted  a  fortnight,  do  you 
think  that  was  the  same  sort  of  complaint 
you  had  made  in  May.? — A,    I  do. 

Why  so? — ^When  I  represented  this  matter 
to  the  board,  the  hosier  was  called  in ;  he 
mi^t  represent  that  there  were  some  of  them 
equal  to  the  pattern,  but  I  never  conceived 
any  of  them  were  equal  to  the  pattern.  I 
tfamk,  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  the  board 
gave  him  four  months  to  provide  others ;  he 
required  that  time  or  nearitto  provide  others; 
it  was  impossible  therefore  to  remedy  it  be- 
fore that  time,  aid  we  .weiei>hliged  ta  take 


R3]        fHftcAtg  Hke  Roj^  Hoipiial  ui  Oreetmclu        A.  D.  1?79« 


[1S6 


ihem  as  we  could,  deductfog  a  filing  a 
doKO  for  those  we  received ;  I  received  an 
opkr  of  the  board  to  receive  that,  which 
UDOunted  to  10/. 

But  did  you  not  think  it  your  dutv  when  an 
application  was  made  to  you  from  tiie  council 
to  represent  a  partiicular  tact  to  the  board  of 
Sectors,  don't  you  think  it  was  your  duty  so 
10  have  done? — I  think  it  impossible  to  be 
icmedied;  I  represented  ^t  Mr.  BaiUie  was 
present;  Mr.  Baillie  being  present  at  the 
Mtfd  of  directors^  and  at  the  councij,  I 
^MHi^t,  upon  my  clerk's  informing  him  at  the 
council,  that  tha;t  was  sufficient;  Mr.  Baillie 
must  know  as  well  as  I  that  no  remedy  could 
be  applied. 

I  did  not  ask  you  what  you  thought  about 
Mr.  Bailhe  and  your  clerk,  but  whether  you 
think  it  is  your  duty,  if  you  receive  an  order 
horn  the  council  to  lay  a  complaint  before  the 
kard  of  directors,  to  lay  that  complaint  be- 
fore the  iKMird  or  not  ? — It  had  been  done'  in 
that  very  instance. 

Did  you  lay  a  copy  of  that  complaint  before 
the  board?— No. 

Do  you  apprehend  it  was  your  duty  to  have 
done  it? — ^I  apprehend  it  was  not  necessary. . 

I  ask  you  whether  it'  is  a  part  of  your  d^ty 
to  obey^  those  orders?*— I  understood  that  I 
Ind  done  my  duty  sufficiently  in  every  re- 
spect 

I  ask  you  a  seneral  question,  whether  it  is 
vour  duty  to  i%ey  the  positive  orders  of  the 
council  or  not  ? — Certamly,  and  I  thought  I 
bad  done  my  duty. 

The  council  directed  you  to  lay  a  copy  of 
their  minute  before  the  dhrectors,  and  you  did 
not  do  that.  Do  you  think  you  did  vour  duty 
in  that?— When  I  informed  them  that  I  had 
done  so  before. 

Did  you  inform  the  council  so  ?— The  clerk 
of  the  council  told  me  so,  and  I  gave  him 
that  answer,  liiat  it  was  already  done. 

I  wish  the  minute  of  the  council  to  be  read ; 
I  think  it  is  said  he  was  ordered  to  lav  this 
before  the  board  of  directors. — Mr.  BaM  reads 
it:  <*  Ordered,  that  a  copy  of  this  minute  be 
sent  to  the  steward,  desinnff  he  would  lay  the 
Mine  before  the  Iward  of  directors  for  their 
information,  that  the  necessary  measures  may 
be  taken  for  redressine  the  men.'' 

Lord  Chrnncelior  to  Mr.  Godby,  Does  the 
oonstituticm  of  the  house  make  you  the  ser- 
vant^n  any  respect,  and  what? — ^In  none ;  I 
te  one  of  the  council. 

Thto  this,  Uiat  they  are  calling  an  order, 
was  a  desire  of  your  brother  counsellors,  that 
you  would  txutke  that  representation  ? — Yes. 

Of  which  council  you  were  one  ?'r-Yes. 

Who  is  the  proper  person  to  lay  it  before 
the  board  of  dveciors  r — ^I  was,  certunly. 

Why  are  you  the  proper  person  to  lay  a 
eomplaint  of  this  kind  before  the  board  of  di- 
TectQis  ? — ^Because  I  received  these  stockings 
^y  pattern^  and  issued  them  with  the  assist^ 
Mce  of  my  clerk.  . 
.  Is  it  youri»usioeis  to  receive^  examine,  and 


issue  them  ^-'-^Yes,  vnth  the  assiatanoe  of  the> 
clerk  of  the  cheque. 

I  should  be  glad  to  know,  whether  the 
board  of  directors  (at  the  time  they  nuide  that 
order  to  deliver  two  pairs  to  the  several  pen^ 
sioners  of  the  best)  knew  at  that  time  that 
the  stockings  so  to  be  delivered  would  not 
last  above  a  fortnight? — You  understand,  my 
ford,  tfiat  I  had  laid  a  sample,  taken  promis- 
cuously out  of  the  whole,  for  their  inspection, 
sunposing  them  to  be  as  good  a  judge  as  my- 

I  I  ask,  whether  the  court  of  directors  could 
know  or  understand  that  the  stockings  so  to" 
be  delivered  would  not  last  above  a  fortnight  ? 
— It  was  impossible  for  them  or  m^  to  say 
how  long  they  would  hist;  they  were  not 
equal  to  the  pattern. 

If  upon  a  trial  they  wore  out  in  a  fortnight, 
and  a  new  comph^t  was  made,  was  not  Uuit 
complaint  fit  tn  be  carried  to  the  board  of  ^ 
rectors  ? — ^We  had  no  remedy. 

I  ask,  if  upon  the  trial  they  wore  out  in  a 
fortnight,  and  a  new  complaint  was  made, 
was  not  that  com^hiint  fit  to  be  carried  to  tiia 
board  of  directors  ? — I  had  received  my  orders, 
and  acted  under  those  orders. 

But  was  this  a  fact  fit  to  be  carried  to  them 
or  not? — If  the  council  had  thought  proper. 

They  did  think  proper,  and  desired  you  to 
do  it^ — ^I  represented  in  return,  that  I  had 
done  it;  I  received  no  farther  orders  from  the 
council. 

You  had  never  laid  before  the  board  of  di- 
rktors  that  the  stockings  upon  trial  had  not 
lasted  a  fortnight  ? — No,  I  had  not 

Why  did  vou  not  lay  that  complaint  beforo 
the  board  of  directors  ? — ^It  did  not  lie  with 
me  to  do  it. 

I  misunderstood  you  then ;  I  thought  you 
were  the  proper  person  to  carry  the  representa- 
tions of  the  council  to  the  board  ol* directors? 
— I  am ;   but  I  thought  I  had  done  sufficient. 

Do  you  think  that  a  representation  to  the 
board  di  directors,  at  that  time,  could  have 
answered  any  purpose? — I  don't. 

Do  you  think  it  is  fit  for  vou  to  have  made 
a  representation  which  coula  answer  no  pur- 
pose?— ^I  don't 

Whether  if  tliis  complaint  had  been  made 
to  the  board  "of  directors,  that  the  stockings 
were  so  bad  they  would  not  last  a  man  a  fort^ 
night,  whether  it  would  have  been  a  good' 
ground  for  them  to  have  turned  off  the  coA- 
tractor,  and  employed  somebody  else? — ^It 
ver)'  possibly  mieht,  but  I  don't  know  th^ 
wero  so  bad  as  that. 

Then  if  it  is  possible  they  might,  or  if  they 
had  done  it,  would  not  that  have  been  some^ 
thing  like  a  remedy  against  the  complaint?-— 
Not  an  inuiedtate  remedy ;  there  could  be  no 
immediate  romedy  according  to  the  represen- 
tation of  the  hosiers. 

Could  it  not  be  remedied  another  time  ? — It 
is  remedied  now ;  th^  have  now  a  new  con- 
tractor. 

Did  not  the  board  of  directors  know,  upon 


187J 


18  GBORGE  IIL 


The 


^xaminiitg  some  of  theae  stockings^  that 
many  of  them  were  much  worse  t&n  they 
ou^t  to  have  been  ? — ^Yes. 

Would  not  that  have  been  a  siifficient  ex- 
cuse for  torniag  o£f  a  contractor  ?-~€ertBinly* 

From  what  appeared  to  you  upon  inflect- 
ing these  stockmgs^  whether  they  looked  as 
if  wey  would  not  last  a  fortnight,  and  whether 
it  appeared  to  you  that  they  did  not  last  a 
fortni^t?*— It  never  appeared  so  to  me;  it 
willonen  happen  upon  a  contract  that  some 
will  be  bad. 

Was  it  a  general  complaint  in  the  Hospital, 
that  they  wcnild  i^  last  more  than  a  fort- 
night ;  or  was  it  only  a  few  people  that  made 
that  complaint  ?*^I  believe  it  was\  very  &r 
firom  a  general  complaint ;  I  believe  they  did 
not  last  the  time  they  should  do. 

Do  you  know  any  men  that  were  satisfied 
with  their  stockings?— I*  believe  some  were 
very  well  satisfied ;  and  whenever  they  came 
to  my  office,  I  changed  them  frequently  for 
what  thev  call  dead  men*s  stockings,  that  the 
men  might  not  suffer  so  much,  which  we  are 
authorised  to  <k)  from  our  instructions. 
.  I  think  you  stated,  that  it  would  be  impro- 
per in  you  to  make  a  complaint  to  the  direc- 
tors that  it  was  not  in  their  power  to  remedy } 
— ^I  may  have  said  to  that  purpose. 

Do  you  think  that  you  are  to  be  the  judge, 
or  they,  whether  it  is  possible  to  remedy  it  or 
not  ? — ^I  understand  that  I  had  made  the  com- 
plaint to  the  board  *  had  received  their  orders, 
and  I  U>oujght  that  sufficient ;  and  then  I  was 
justifiable  m  acting  under  those  orders. 

But  a  fresh  complaint  had  arisen? — ^I  did 
not seie. any  occasion  for  a  fresh  complaint; 
the  council  met,  and  therefore  it  was  their 
duty  to  see  to  it. 

I  ask  you,  whether  it  was  your  duty  to  lay 
that  complaint,  when  it  was  made  by  the 
oounciL  before  the  board  of  directors  ? — ^If  in 
DHy  judgment  I  had  seen  reason  for  a  fresh 
complaint 

I  ask  you,  whether  you  think  you  are  to  be 
the  judge,  whether  a  complaint 'made  by  the 
eouiKil  was  proper  to  be  laid  before  the  board 
of  directors  ? — I  had  nothios  to  do  with  it ;  I 
receive  the  orders  from  the  boaxd  of  directors 
io  act  in  my  department. 

But  did  you  not  receive  communication  of 
this  ?^I  did. 

Why  did  you  not  lay  that  complaint  before 
the  board  \ — For  the  reason  I  gave  before ;  I 
thought  the  answer  that  I  had  given  to  the 
couiicil  sufficient. 

Tlienyou  were  to  judje,  whether  that  com- 
plaint was  well  or  itt-munded,  and  not  the 
.toard  of  directors  ?— That  is  a  different  thing; 
I  do  not  say  that  I  do. 

At  tiie  time  when  you  did  not  lay  this  be- 
fore the  board,  were  not  you  satisfied,  that  if 
the  council  had  consisted  of  reasonable  peo- 
ple, that  it  was  a  suffifcient  ajiswer  to  say,  that 
that  complaint  already  the  directors  were  acs- 
quainted  with  ? — Yes. 

And  was  not  tbat  the  reason  for  not  doing 
it  ?— Yes  >  and  the  reason  I  gave. 


Case  of  Capain  Thomas  BaUli^ .        [180 

Had  you  befbie  acquainted  the  boara  of  di« 
rectors,  that  since  the  delivery  they  had  worn 
out  in  afortiiight? — I  had  compuuned  ibtiy 
were  bad,  and  not  equal  to  the  pattern. 
,  But  that  was  before  the  trial) — Yea. 

And  are  these  two  thinp  the  same  ? — -As 
the  stockings  were  bad,  iy  is  reasonable  to 
suppose  they  would  wear  out  before  the  time 
limited  for  them ;  I  don't  look  upon  it  \hat 
the  whole,  or  near  of  them,  would  wear  out 
in  that  time. 

I  ask  you,  if  it  were  but  for  one  that  was 
worn  out,  whether  that  is  the  same  complaint? 
No,  it  is  not.  '' 

You  say,  that  the  contractor  had  not  time 
to  find  the  quantity  of  stockings  necessary  for 
four  months,  I  think? — ^I  do. 

At  the  end  of  those  four  months,  did  he 
bring  stockings  equal  to  the  onginal  contract? 
— ^I  think  they  were  very  near. 

Aseood  as  you  could  expect? — ^Yes;  and 
much  better  than  the  former. 

And  his  reason  for  not  giving  them  good 
before^  was,  another  man  umiertaking  it,  aod 
he  was  forced  to  bring  goods  that  otherwise 
he  wouTd  not  have  done  ? — Yes,  that  was  the 
reason  he  gave. 

As  you  complained  in  the  first  instaiice  to 
the  council  that  they  were  bad,  why  did  not 
you  in  the  second  instance  make  the  com- 
plamt  ? — ^I  thought  that  complaint  had  beea 
made  to  the  board,  and  I  thought  that  would 
be  a  sufficient  answer  to  the  council. 

Though  «the  stockings  proved  bad  afteis 
wards  ? — Yes. 

I  think  you  just  now  said,  that  there  was 
no  remedy  at  that  time;  you  acknowledge  the 
stockings,  were  very  bad,  but  you  had  no  re- 
medy; now  I  think  it  appears  to  me  there 
was  a  remedy. — It  does  not  appear  to  me. 

You  gave  these  people  two  pairs  of  stockings 
each,  did  not  you  ? — Yes. 

Suppose,  when  you  had  found  them  so  very 
bad,  you  had  delivered  out  but  one  pair  to 
each  {  why  did  not  you  remedy  it  in  that 
manner  ? — I  did  not  think  two  pair  were  suf* 
ficient  to  deliver  them  out  for  a  change. 

But  they  had  stockings,  Mr.  Baillie  saya^ 
of  their  own  before ;  that  was  a  change.-— 
Thc^  had  old  stockings  certainly. 

Suppose,  if  a  pair  had  been  worn  out,  you 
might  have  got  another  pair  for  each  of  them 
in  a  fortnight?— The  contractor  demanded 
four  months. 

Could  you  not  have  got  others  in  a  forU 
night? — ^I  believe  not. 

You  say  you  could  not  have  got  these 
stockings  from  these  people  in  a  fortnight ;  X 
will  answer  for  it,  if  you  had  applied  to  the 
hosiers  at  Leicester,  you  would  have  got  them 
in  a  week. — ^I  don't  think  they  could  be  dyed 
in  the  time,  much  more  made. 

Do  you  think  the  contractor  could  not  have 
n>t  them  there  ? — ^I  don't  think  he  could  have 
Uiem  dyed  in  t^e  time ;  when  I  have  applied 
to  the  contractors  for  stockings,  tbey  nave 
made  vofA  answer,  that  they  were  dying,  and 
would  be  ready  m  a  week  or  a  montn,  or  so. 


789]        retptetiug  ike  Royal  HotfUal^tA  Greemdch.        A.  D.  1778. 


[190 


But  if  vfNi  had  appiwd  propcrlj  where  I 

teli  Tou,  <fo  jou  thiok  thev  coiud  nol  be  sup- 
plieaw^msiflkie&tnuinber  ina  tbrtni^? 
— Idon^know. 

Because  voa  aaid .  you  did  not  see  any  re- 
ndT.— I  did  not  see  any  remedy ;  nor  did 
the  board  at  that  time,  I  believe ;  I  dont 
tUnk  it  was  possible  to  be  served  in  tlie 
time. 

Lord  Chancellor.  Whether  you  look  upon 
yoorself  to  be  under  the  orders  of  the  council  ? 
-i.  No.  • 

And  whether  it  is  usual  for  vou  to  carrv  the 
minutes  of  the  council  to  the  board  of  mreo- 
tors?~-€ertainly  not. 

Did  you  deliver  the  two  pair  of  stockings, 
bj  the  order  of  the  directors? — I  did. 

W^s  the  same  contractor  continued  after  this 
abuse? — ^No,  we  have  a  new  contractor  now.  - 

But  who  was  the  contractor  thenP — The 
man  that  serves  us  now  followed  the  man 
that  served  in  these  bad  stockings ;  he  did 
not  supply  us  aflerwards ;  I  believe  he  did  not 
bid  for  the  contract  aflerwards,  I  am  not  cer- 
tain whether  he  did  or  not ;  but^  however, 
there  was  a  lower  bidder,  and  the  person  has 
it  now. 

You  did  not  exempt  him  from  the  contmct? 
-No, 

And  dkl  he  continue  contractor,  the  four 
months  between)  or  how  Icme  ^— He  continued 
for  the  serving  of  these  stockings  for  the  two 
years. 

Then  he  served  four  months  aflerwards?-^ 
Tes^  several  months  aflerwards. 

Without  applviog  to  any  body  but  the  con- 
tractor, after  tne  men  had  had  one  pair  of 
stockii^  which  they  mi^i  have  made  a 
shift  with  perhaps,  would  it  not  have  been 
better,  and  would  there  not  have  been  time 
enough  without  taking  two  pair,  to  have 
wait^  for  the  contractor's  providing? — I  don't 
think  theie  woukl. 

How  knag  were  these  stockings  to  last? — 
£ttht  monthe,  I  think. 

Then  how  long  time  would  yoti  give  him 
for  another  pair? — I  think  it  was  four  months 
the  cotttraetor  wished  to  have,  aad  aaid  he 
cMld  net  complete  the  oonlract  in  less  time. 

l)on't  you  know  three  pair  <^  stockings 
It  to  last  two  years? — Yes,  a  pair  lasts 
itaionlhs. 

ihen,  according  to  that,  might  they  not 
have  had  time  enough  to  have  vouled  for  Uie 
Kcond  peir  being  made  ?— I  don*t  think  there 
woukL 

Ooyouiflsainne  that  the  board  of  direotors 
thouffht  ^lat  the  ntockings,  that  were  deti-^ 
«aed  mthe  UMintb  of  M«^,  were  fit  .for  the 
nui  to  weaf,  and  fit  tO/last  eight montha  or 
jot?— That  they  were  not  is  certain;  if  (hey 
■u» there  waano  ocoation  forme  to  hatwt 
nadeaeampteaii.  r 

Thatldon^^OB;  for  you  rcpataentadjthat 
»«7  vera  noi.  ^qiial  to  the  patlterD^  and  the 
watncioifB^  mtfreseatatiaa  ^«as,'  tW  thty 
***  >tj:oo|sr  Iban  the  pattern;  ^  wiia^  was, 


done  in  consequence  of  this  ?  Were  any  more 
stockings  allowed  to  the  men,  in  .consequence 
of  those  having  been  delivered  which  were 
bad  ? — When  a  man  came  to  my  office  with  a 
complaint,  which  I  look  upon  the  proper 
place  to  come  to,  I  ordered  my  people  to 
change  any  of  those  that  were  iMidy  and  give 
them  some  old  ones  that  were  returned  iu 
from  dead  men;  we  have  an  order,  when  a 
man  dies,  his  clothes  are  letumed  into  my 
office,  and  they  are  mended  and  provided  for 
new  pensioners. 

And  that  was  the  case  with  all  that  com- 
plained ? — I  believe  most ;  when  I  thought  it 
a  just  complaint,  and  that  the  man  had  not 
wore  out  his  stockiitts  by  working  as  a  la- 
bourer, or  any  thine  or  that  kind. 

Was  it  done  in  tne  case  of  those  men  that 
complained  to  the  council? — ^I  don*'t  know 
who  those  men  were,  and  should  not  remem- 
ber if  I  saw  the  list  of  them. 

What  is  the  method  that  the  council  usually 
follow,  when  they  want  to  communicate  any 
thine  to  the  board  of  directors? — ^They  order 
the  clerk  of  the  council^  I  should  apprehend, 
to  jpresent  such  a  letter  to  the  board. 

Whether  you  have  ever  carried  any  thiiw 
before  the  board  of  directors  by  the  desiieM* 
the  council  ?— I  don't  recollect  that  I  ever 
have ;  I  may,  but  I  don't  recollect  that  I  ever 
did. 

I  think  you  said,  you  told  the  clerk  that  you 
had  already  made  the  complaint ;  where  did 
you  tell  him  that?— I  tola  my  clerk,  who 
told  me  the  message. 

Do  you  know  that  your  clerk  declared  that 
to  the  council  ? — I  don't  know  that  he  did,  but 
I  believe  he  did.    .      [Mr.  Godby  wiihdrew.] 

Mr.  Ibhetton  called  in  again. 

Do  you  look  upon  it  to  be  the  dutv  of  the 
steward  to  make  representation  by  thediree^ 
tion  of  tlie  council,  to  the  board  of  directors? 
—No,  I  don't. 

Then  you  don't  look  upon  Mr.  Oodbv  to  ba 
resfwnsible  in  not  makina  Uie  second  com- 
plamt  at  the  desire  of  uie  council^  to  the 
board  of  directors :  whose  business  is  it  to 
make  the  complaint  from  the  counciLto  the 
board  of  directors  ?  How  is  it  usually  done  ? 
*T~I  have  never  known  it  otl^rwise  since  I 
have  been  secretary  of  Greenwich  Hospital^ 
th^t  any  complaint  or  any  orders  of  the  ooubp 
cil  have  ever  come  to  me  in  anv  other  way 
than  under  a  cover  fioom  the  clerk  of  the 
council;  I  never  knew  an  instance  where  the- 
slieward  was  desired  to  convey  it,  and  I-  was. 
su^rprised  to  see  that  tacked  to  this  resolution  j 
I  never  knew  an  officer  a  beafer  of  those  mi'^ 
nulos^  er  desired  to  repieaent  them. 

[Mr.  Ibbecson  withdmwi] 

Captain  Baillie  called  in  again. 

■  •       '  ♦  ^ 

- .  Give  an  account  of  any  other  abuses  ?•— t« 
b^  to  say  a .  word  or  t«ro  upon  the  si4ti^t  of 
th^  9tocluag»«  In  the  first  plaoe^  we  wens 
very  well  served  1^  the  former  contractor  of 


191] 


18  GEORGE  m.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomu  SailUef         [191? 


the  Hospital  for  stockings ;  there  was  no  cough 
plaint  in  his  time  that  I  know  of;  the  men 
were  served  with  stockings  made  of  double 
yarn .  For  the  saJte  of  reducing  that  contract 
only  one  penny  a  pair,  or  thereabouts,  the 
contract  was  given  to  another  man;  who  made 
them  of  single  yarn,  which  was  of  very  little 
use  to  the  men.  When  the  stockings  were 
jeotnplained  of,  two  thirds  were  issued  to  the 
pensioners,  only  one  third  was  returned  to  the 
contractor,  and  instead  of  prosecutini;  him 
for  the  penalty,  they  let  him  off;  ahd  I  believe 
verily  the  same  stockings  were  afterwards  re- 
turned to  the  pensioners ;  there  is  a  hosier 
here  that  can  tell  you  more  of  that  matter 
than  myself,  because  he  viewed  a  great  num- 
ber of  those  stockings,  at  the  time  the  com- 
mittee of  enquiry  were  sitting,  who  refused  to 
inspect  into  this  matter ;  I  6eg  leave  to  ob- 
i5erve,  that  in  regard  to  desiring  the  steward 
of  the  Hospital  to  present  that  minute  of 
the  council  to  the  board  of  directors,  it  was 
said,  if  we  make  a  complaint  about  these 
stockings,  let  it  go  through  the  proper 
officer,  the  steward  of  Greenwich  Hospital, 
your  complaint  mav  be  attended  to ;  we  have 
made  many  complaints  to  the  directors,  to 
which  we  "have  had  no  answer,  as  your  lord- 
rilips  will  see  by  the  minutes,  that  they  were 
never  attended  to,  and  therefore  we  applied 
through  the  proper  ofEcer,  hoping  it  would 
then  be  attended  to. 

Did  Tou  ever  employ  the  steward  upoft  that 
,80rt  of  business  before? — ^No. 

I  wonder  you  should  think  hitft  a  proper  of- 
ficer } — Because  he  is  a  servant  to  the  direc- 
tors, and  b^use  he  is  the  person  that  has  the 
inspection  of  all  those  kindis  of  stores,  receives 
them,  aod  ought  to  see  that  they  are  good 
andameable  to  the  contract;  he  ought  to 
tell  the  directors  of  it ;  it  is  not  to  be  sup- 
posed this  can  come  immediately  under  tfieir 
Lhowledge  without  his  information. 

If  you  had  sent  this  in  the  ordinary  way  by 
a  letter  to  the  secretary,  they  would  of  course 
have  sent  for  this  man,  and  had  the  informa- 
tion from  him,  who  was  the  proper  man  to 
^ve  it,  as  I  understood  at  the  beginning  of 
your  examination  upon  this  subject;  iff  am 
mistaken,  the  clerk  will  set  me  right.  I  un- 
derstood you  said;  that  it  was  improper  for  the 
council  to  apply  to  the  board'ot  directors  for 
any  order  at  all, 'and  you  thought  it  the  duty 
of  the  council  always  to  make  application  to 
the  Admiralty? — What  we  could  not  redress 
ourselves,  I  thought  it  our  duty  to  represent 
it  to  the  Admiral^ ;  no  complamt  can  arise  in 
Greenwich  Hospital,  but  irom  the  misconduct 
of  the  council  or  directors. 

I  understand  you  were  president  of  this  very 
council  who  applied  to  the  board  of  directors, 
whom  you  thinx  the  improper  persons  to  ap- 
ply to  ? — ^I  have  but  one  voice  at  the  councd, 
and  have  been  frequently  and  constantly  over- 
ruled at  the  council,  or  else  the  afiiurs  of  the 
Hospital,  I  humbly  conceive,  wKMdd  not  have 
been  in  we  plight  they  are  now  to.^ 

t 


Did  you  at  the  council  propose  preferring 
the  complaint  immediately  to  the  Admiralty 
or  to  the  directors?*— Not  in  that  particular 
instance  I  did  not,  but  I  have  in  others;  our 
commission  says,  when  we  cannot  redress  our- 
selves, as  I  understand,  we  are  to  apply  to  the 
board  of  Admiralty. 

There  have  been  firequent  instances  men- 
tioned of  provisions  having  been  represented 
to  the  jgovemor  and  board  of  directors  as  bad 
by  the  mal-practices  of  clerks  that  received 
them,  and  o!  the  contractors,  without  redress; 
are  there  any  more  instances  of  that  sort  than 
what  we  have  heard  of? — ^Upon  the  subject 
of  the  putnd  veal,  that  was  served  in  the  io- 
finnaiy,  I  believe  w^  wrote  three  times  to  the 
board  of  directors,  aiyl  to  the  governor,  who 
was  in  London;  and  in  order  to  stimulate 
the  governor,  we^wrote  him  firom  the  council 
inclosed  copies  of  two  letters  from  the  board 
of  Admiralty  to  the  council,  in  which  the 
duty  of  the  council  officers  is  particuliu-ly 
pointed  out,  and  no  answer-could  be  procuredL 

The  Minutes  of  the  15th  of  April,  17r4,  read: 

"  At  a  council  the  IMh  of  April,  1774.  The 
council  findinff  no  official  answer  is  come  from 
the  board  of  oirectors,  respecting  the  two  mi- 
nutes of  the  4th  and  8th  inst.  laid  before  them, 
complaining  that  the  clerks  had  not  done  their 
duty  by  receiving  the  meat  complained  of  by 
the  physician,  surgeon,  and  dispenser,  and 
also  that  the  oontraetor  had  veiy  much  im- 
posed upon  the  Hospital  in  sendine  such  meat, 
unanimously  denre,  that  the  genttemen  of  the 
council,  who  are  in  the  direction,  would  in- 
form  them  what  was  done  in  the  affiur. 

**  The  lieittenant-govemor  acquainted  th< 
that  he  had  told  the  directors  he  ho 
something  would  be  done,  as  the  butcher 
since  that,  on  Monday  the  1 1th  instant,  sent 
beef,  part  of  which  was  so  bad,  as  was  obliged 
to  be  returned  by  the  officers,  whose  duty  it 
was  to  inspect  it,  and  that  if  the  butcher  was 
permitted  to  »)  on,  the  patience  of  the  pen- 
sioners would  be  worn  out;  upon  which  the 
butcher  was  sent  for,  and  reprimanded. 

^  The  coimcil  are  therefore  unanimously  of 
opinion,  that  the  measures  taken  by  the  board 
of  directors^  after  such  incontrovertible  evi^. 
dence,  have  not  been  satisfactory  to  the  ooun* 
cil;  nor  etfectual  to  prevent  the  hke  abuses  for 
the  future,  &c. 

^'  The  council  are  likewise  of  opinion,  thai 
copies  of  the  two  minutes,  which  were  laid  be* 
fore  the  board  of  directors,  together  with  that 
of  the  18th  of  March,  be  laid  before  the  «>- 
vemor,  that  the  governor  may  please  to  tiuee 
such  steps  as  may  more  eftectuaUy  prevent 
such  mal-pcactices  of  the  clerks  and  con^ 
tractors -in  future;  and  that  copies  of  letters 
from  the  secretary  of  the  Admiralty  of  tho 
19th  of  April  and  7th  of  May,  1749,  to  sir 
John  Jennings,  be  also  hud  before  the  go- 
vernor; and  Uiat  whenever  'te  councii  hayo 
oceasion  to  lay  any  roattevs  befbcp  the  board 


US]        re^iecA^  ike  Royal  Hospital  at  Oreenwfch.         A.  D.  1778. 


[194 


if  (firedois,  tbegr  wish  to  have  offidal  answers 
tfaoeto.  By  ocder  of  the  Council. 

«  Daniel  Ball." 

Wb^  are  those  letters  that  are  referred  to 
in  that  minute?—**  They  are  three  letters 
tiiat  we  found  in  the  books  of  the  council^ 
film  a  late  secretary  of  the  Admiralty,  Mr. 
Coibett,  reprimandmg  the  counpil  very  se- 
Tordy  for  not  looking  minutely  into  the  afiairs 
of  the  Ho^ital ;  that  their  lordships  had  been 
infonned  oy  the  directors,  that  the  men  had 
been  defrauded  of  their  just  allowance  of  pro- 
visions, and  that  there  were  frauds  and  abuses 
in  the  Hospited  to  the  prejudice  of  the  ooor 
men;  that  he  was  commanded  by  their  lord- 
ships to  desire  4 he  governor  to  Altogether 
the  officers  of  the  council,  and  to  let  them 
know  that  thdr  lordships  thought  them  very 
btameable  for  suffering  such  abuses  to  be 
practised,  which  could  not  have  been  without 
their  extreme  indolence  in  not  looking  into 
the  a&irs  of  the  Hospital;  that  their  own 
cstdblishment  in  the'Hospital  was  for  the  go- 
verament,  care,  and  protection  of  the  poor 
DMO,  and  that  it  was  their  duty  to  kwk  daily 
ioto  every  thing,  and  to  remedy  every  dis- 
order. 

^  That  the  allegations  in  the  officers  report, 
tittt  the  penaioners  had  made  no  complaint, 
does  rather  aggravate  their  conduct,  in  suffer- 
iug  the  men's  patience  to  be  so  long  imposed 
upon. 

**  That  the  lords  of  the  Admiralty  had 
commanded  him  to  express  himself  in  such  a 
■umer  as  might  shew  their  wrath  and  dis- 
pleasure at  such  a  proceeding. 

**  That  their  lordships  did  very  well  know 
that  the  directors  had  no  power  but  in  the  ma- 
ugement  of  the  revenue  and  estates  of  the 
Hospital,  and  in  carrying  on  the  works  of  the 
faidtding,  nor  did  they  assimie  any  on  that  oc- 
CB9on;  but  their  lonfehips  should  always 
take  well  of  them  any  informations  that  tend 
to  rectify  any  roistajLes  or  omissions  whatso- 
ever concerning  the  state  of  the  Hospital.^' 

An  entry  read  of  an  order  of  the  council  the 
4th  of  April,  1774,  respecting  the  badness  of 
the  veal,  viz. 

"Present,  Lieutenant-governor  Baillie,  cap- 
tain Maple«len,  and  ten  other  officers  of  the 

OOUDcil. 

**  The  cook  of  the  infirmary  having  repre- 
Koted  to  the  dispenser,  that  the  veal  pro- 
vided for  the  sick  on  Sunday  last,  was  very 
bad,  aiKl  Mr.  Pocock  having  insoected  the 
ttnie,  was  of  that  opinion,  and  ordered  it  to 
he  carried  to  the  pnysician,  who,  finding  it 
uofit  for  the  pensioners  to  eat,  ordered  it  to 
he  retiiroed  to  the  butcher,  who  refused  to 
take  it  back,  saying,  in  justification  of  him- 
wlf,  that  it  had  been  received  by  Mr.  Court, 
the  clerk  of  the  cheque's  clerk,  and  Mr. 
Bambly,  one  of  the  steward's  clerks. 

**  The  council  were  therefore  unanimously 
of  opinion,  thai  the  botcher  had  very  much 

VOU  XXI. 


imposed  upon  the  Hospital,  by  sending  such 
bad  meat,  and  that  the  clerks  did  not  do  their 
duty  in  receivinjg  it,  and  beg  leave  to  lay  this 
copy  of  the  minute  before  the  board  of  di- 
rectors, that  they  maybe  pleased  to  give  such 
directions  as  may  be  thought  necessaiy  to 
))revent  the  like  impositions  m  future. 
"  By  order  of  the  Council, 

"  Daniel  Ball.** 

Was  the  complaint  made,  in  consequence 
of  this,  to  the  Wml  of  directors,  that  they 
did  not  eive  an  answer  to  it  ?— Capt.  Bailiie, 
Yes;  and  there  was  no  answer  to  it. 

In  the  minute  of  the  council,  of  the  15th 
of  April,  1774,  to  the  »)vemor,  notice  is  taken 
of  two  complaints  being  presented  lo  the 
board  of  directors,  to  which  they  received  lio 
answer  :  what  were  those  complaints? — 
Complaining  of  this  bad  veal :  afler  that  we 
complained  to  the  governor. 

Tnere  must  have  been  a  minute  of  council^ 
statins  that  complaint. — This  minute  of  the 
councn  relates  to  those  complaints. 

How  does  it  appear,  that  this  minute  of 
the  council  was  laid  before  the  board  of  di- 
rectors?— Mr.  Ball.  It  was  lud  before  the 
board  of  directors  by  myself,  who  officiate 
for  the  clerk  of  the  council. 

Does  it  appear  there,  that  it  was  ordered  to 
be  laid  before  the  board  of  directors? — Mr. 
Ball  reads :  "  Resolved,  that  a  copy  of  the 
minutes,  of  the  4th  and  8th  of  Apnl,  be  laid 
before  the  bcMud  of  directors,  for  their  infor- 
mation in  this  afiair ;  and  also  the  minute  of 
the  15th  to  be  laid  before  the  governor." 

Does  it  appear  by  any  minute  of  the  board 
of  directors,  that  it  was  laid  before  the  di- 
rectors ? — At  a  board  of  directors,  on  the  6th 
of  April,  a  minute  of  the  council  of  the  4th 
instant  vras  read,  in  relation  to  some  bad  vea), 
&c.  &c. 

Mr.  IbbetMon  called  in  again. 

Is  there  any  communication  of  that  to  the 
council  ? — As  much  as  there  ever  is,  in  any 
cases  of  this  kind ;  which  is,  that  the  lieute- 
nant-governor, and  several  of  the  members  of 
the  council  being  generally  at  a  board  of  di- 
rectors :  there  are  subsequent  minutes.  At 
the  next  mcetine,  which  was  on  the  18th  of 
April,  a  minute  of  council,  of  the  8th  inst.  was 
read,  relating  to  some  farther  particulars  con- 
cerning the  veal  complained  ol  by  them  in  the 
minute  of  the  4th  in^^^tant 

What  was  done  upon  that?— That  is  all  that 
was  stated  of  it ;  the  board  had  given  direc- 
I  tions  before ;  this  also  contains  some  fresh  in- 
formations with  respect  to  the  subject. 

Captain  Baillie,  I  beg  the  minute  of  coun- 
cil, of  the  8th  of  April,  may  be  read,  in  order 
to  explain  what  sort  of  veal  it  was. 

Mr.  Ball  reads  the  minute.    . 

"At  a  Council,  the  8th  of  April,  1774. 
Present,  lieutenant-governor  Bailbe,  captain 
Maplesden,  captain  AUwright,  and  eight 
others. 


195] 


IB  GEORGE  III.  Tkg-Ctue  of  Captain  Thofkas  BaiOier         [199 


"  Wherein  it  appeared,  that  the  cohtractor 
said,  he  was  ordered  to  send  in  small  veal  for 
the  sick,  by  Mr.  Taylor,  the  surgeon ;  and  Mr. 
Taylor  being  sent  for  by  the  council,  was  ask- 
ed whetlier  ne  ^ve  such  orders  to  the  butcher 
or  his  servants  r  He  answered^  that  he  never 
gave  such  orders,  directlv  or  indirectly ;  and 
tnat,  to  the  best  of  his  knowledge,  he  never 
saw  either  the  contractor,  or  any  of  his  people. 
Mr.  Taylor  being  likewise  asked,  whether  he 
saw  the  veal  complained  of  that  day,  said  he 
did;  and  being  asked  his  opinion  ot  it,  said  it 
appeared  extremely  indifferent ;  the  colour  not 
0)od,  verv  bony,  Uie  skin  flillof  air,  the  flesh 
nabby  and  loose,  and  in  no  degree  marketable : 
and  Mr.  Pocock,  the  dispenser,  being  asked 
his  opinion  of  it,  sai(L  it  appeared  to  him  to 
be  in  a  state  of  putrefaction,  and  confirmed 
Mr.  Tavlor's  opimon  of  the  meat.  Mr.  Tho- 
mas, the  surgeon's  assistant,  being  likewise 
asked  whether  h^  eave  any  orders  to  the  but- 
cher to  bring  smaU  veal,  said,  he  never  did ; 
and  it  further  appeared,'  by  uie  evidence  of 
James  Webb,  Thomas  Hardcastle,  and  others, 
that  the  butcher's  servant  refused  to  take  back 
this  veal,  &c. 

"  Resolved,  that  a  copy  of  this  minute  be 
laid  before  the  board  of  directors  for  further 
information  in  this  affair.    Daniel  Ball.'' 

Were  the  minutes  of  that  coimcil  laid  be- 
fore the  board  of  directors? — Certainly  they 
were. 

Let  us  see  what  was  done  in  consequence 
of  that? 

Captain  Baillie.  That  is  what  was  read  m 
the  director's  minute  of  the  13th.  Aflcr  this 
the  council,  on  the  15th,  made  representation 
to  the  governor,  hopins  we  might  have  an- 
swers  from  the  board  of  directors,  when  we  had 
occasion  to  apply  to  them ;  but  all  to  no  man- 
ner of  purpose ;  we  never  could  get  an  an- 
swer from  them  in  any  way. 

Was  there  any  remedy  given  ? — The  but- 
cher was  sent  for  to  the  board  of  directors, 
and  there  told  by  the  governor,  that  if  he  dia 
not  supplv  better  mea^  especially  for  the  sick, 
he  should  not  enjoy  the  contract  any  longer. 
I  have  already  told  your  lordships,  that  the 
butcher  said,  he  would  have  the  contract,  that 
he  would  supply  the  Hospital  with  meal^  and 
that  there  was  no  complaint  of  him  or  his 
meat  till  that  troublesome  fellow,  the  lieute- 
nant-governor, got  into  office. 

Q.  to  Mr.  BalL  You  are  the  secretary  of 
the  council  ? — Yes. 

It  would  appear  in  your  minutes,  if  there 
had  ever  been  transmitted  answers  from  the 
board  of  directors  to  the  council  ? — ^There  have 
been  minutes  from  the  board  of  directors,  but 
I  don't  remember  the  answers. 

Captain  Baillie.  I  recollect  one  instance, 
when  the  complaints  of  the  bad  quality  of  the 
beef  rose  to  an  enormous  height.  '  The  direc- 
tors answered  upon  a  remonstrance  from  the 
council,  that  they  had  acquiesced  in  their  de- 
sire to  cut  off  the  waler  cocks,  which  commu- 


nicated with  the  beer  pipes ;  it  was  on  the  lOtb 
of  May,  1777. 

Mr.  Ihbetson  called  in. 

.  What  is  the  usual  method  for  the  board  oC 
directors  upon  receiving  complaints  from  the 
council  at  Greenwich  Hospital,  whether  they 
ever  return  answers,  or  if  they  do.  in  wha^ 
manner?— The  general  practice  wnen  they 
make  anv  complaints,  the  board  redresses 
them  if  tney  can  be  redressed ;  there  is  gene- 
rally, or  almost  always  at  all  the  boards,  either 
the  governor  or  lieutenantrgovemor,  or  per^ 
sons  of  the  House,  present. 

Mr.  Ibbetaon  reads  an  entry  of  the  lOth  of 

May,  1777. 

"Present,  sir  Charles  Hardy  (governor), 
captain  Baillie  (heutenant-govemor),  captaia 
Hood  (treasurer)  sir  Peter  Dennis,  Mr.  Monh, 
and  several  others. 

"  The  board  resumed  the  consideration  of 
the  council  minutes  of  the  21st  and  S5tii  of 
last  month,  and  took  into  consideration  ano- 
ther minute  of  theirs  of  the  8th  instant,  rela« 
tive  to  the  bad  beer;  and  having  disooursed 
with  the  brewer,  came  to  the  following  resolu* 
tion,  viz. 

"That  all  the  water-cocks  in  the  brew- 
house,  which  communicate  to  the  beer  pipes, 
be  locked  up,  and  the  keys  delivered  into  tifie 
custody  of  the  steward,  till  they  shall  be  want* 
ed  for  the  purpose  of  opening  the  said  locks^ 
in  order  to  cleanse  those  pipes,  at  which  time 
he,  or  one  of  his  clerks,  are  to  attend  with 
tliem;  and  when  the  business  is  done,  vad 
the  cocks  locked  up,  to  take  care  of  the  keys, 
until  they  shall  be  wanted  again  for  the  iike 
purpose. 

"  The  brewer  was  at  the  same  time  told, 
that  he  must  attend  to  the  brewings  himself, 
taste  the  beer  before  it  be  drawn  Inftn  the 
vats  for  the  use  of  the  pensioners,  and  if  he 
finds  it  not  as  it  ought  to  be,  not  to  let  it  be 
drawn  off,  but  to  serve  such  as  is  ^ood,  and  in 
every  respect  fit  for  the  men  todnnk,  and  ne 
other,  for  which  purpose  he  is  always  to  hav« 
a  sumcient  stock  in  store;  and  if  he  finds  Uiat 
his  servants  are  negligent  or  incapable  of  their 
duty,  to  dismiss  them,  and  to  appoint  such 
others  as  he  may  think  more  diligent  and  ca- 
pable, in  their  stead.  AoO^^u"^®^*" 

Did  they  communicate  that  to  the  council  f 
— No,  nor  there  was  no  order  of  the  board, 
for  it  to  be  communicated ;  here  is  a  string  of 
resolutions,  and  the  remedy  is  applied  imm^" 
diately. 

What  have  you  to  say  to  this,  captain 
Baillie  ?— 4  beg  leave  first  to  say,  that  I  liave 
in  my  hand  a  copy  of  the  minute  which  Mr. 
Ihbetson  has  now  read,  nven'tomebvMr. 
Ball,  in  Ball's  own  tumd-wrking,  and  Mr. 
Ball  hav'mj;  no  access  to  the  minutes  of  Iks 
board  of  directors,  he  therefore  could  not  have 
furnished  me  with  a  copy  of  that  n^inute  but 
through  Af  r.  Ihbetson  or  his  clerk.  And  se- 
condly, I  beg  the  first  article  of  Mr.  Ibbetson's 
instrucUoES  may  be  reftd^  by  which  it  will  a[^ 


Iff]       nqMrfb^  tie  Royal  HospUal  ai  Grsmmch.         A.  D.  1778. 


[198 


pir,  thftt  be  k  onkred  to  give  ansyrers  in 
milfflg  to  aU  ptities,  making  repiesentatiMis 
totbe  boeid  of  directors;  otherwise,  if  the 
iieotenant^covtrnor  happens  not  to  be  pre- 
MDt  at  the  board,  it  is  impossible  the  council 
en  ever  hear  an^  thing  certain  concerning 
Ihe  oomphuntB  which  they  make. 

}fr.  Ibbetton  reads  the  first  article  of  his  In- 
structions from  a  printed  book. 

<*  The  secretaiy,  or  his  deputy,  is  to  attend 
at  ail  the  meetings  of  the  general  court  and  of 
liie  direcfeors,  and  to  read  all  papers  necessary 
Id  be  hid  before  them,  and  take  minutes  of 
tbop  proceedings,  copies  of  which  he  is  to  de« 
lirer  to  all  persons  concerned^  attested  under 
Ibs  hands. 

Cairtam  BaiUU,    That  is  what  I  allude  to. 

I  will  aak  captain  Baillie,  what  complaints 
do  jou  know  have  existed  relative  to  any  bad 
m?-*-A  great  number  of  complaints. 

It  there  one  short  &ct  about  it^  Do  you 
recollect  whether  at  one  time  there  was  any 
^eat  quantity  that  the  couiicil  thought  proper 
to  itart? — 111  barrels  of  bad  beertne  coundl 
weie  under  the  necessity  to  start  at  cme  time, 
because  they  were  mixing  it  with  new  beer  in 
the  tun,  for  the  use  of  the  pensioners. 

At  .what  time  was  that  ? — October  9,  1775 ; 
there  have  been  more  complaints  of  the  beer 
than  of  any  other  article,  and  it  is  a  material 
fart  of  the  provisions  of  the  pensioners. 

Does  it  appeat  that  the  beer  was  started  bv 
the  minutes  of  the  council? — ^I  should  think 
b  certainly  would. 

Mr.  Ball  reads  the  Minutes  of  the  Council^ 
October  9, 1775. 

-  "  Present,  lieutenantrgovemor  BaiUie ;  cap- 
tain Maplesden,  lieutenant  Gordon,  lieutenant 
^essoD,  lieutenant  Le  Fevre,  lieutenant  A  n- 
sell,  captain  Lynn,  lieutenant  Moyle,  lieute- 
nant Kerr,  lieutenant  Smith,  Mr.  Godby. 

^  The  lieutenant-governor  acquainted  the 
oouodl,  that  he  haid  received  repeated  com- 

e Its  from  the  officers  and  pensioners,  of  the 
quality  of  the  snudl  beer,  and  that  ne  had 
as  frequently  admonished  the  master  brewer 
thereof,  without  its  being  properlv  remedied* 
bi  ODDsequence  of  which  he  now  laid  the  said 
connJunt  bdBmre  them,  agreeable  to  the  17th 
article  of  the  eeneral  instructions,  for  the  re- 
Spiating,  and  better  government  of  the  pen- 
aioneis  and  servants  of  the  said  Hospital, 
wherein  they  are  directed  to  apply  a  proper 
flcmedy,  without  delay,  to  all  just  causes  of 
comnhunt  The  council  thereupon  went  to 
^  brewhouse,  and  tasted  each  vat  of  beer 
3«psrBtely,  and  found  111  barrels  of  the  said 
^^,  as  sour  as  the  nature  of  small  beer  would 
■dmitof;  aadjwere  unanimously  of  opinion, 
that  it  was  neither  ^od,  wholesome,  or  fit  for 
^  pensioQers  to  drmk ;  and  that  it  would  be 
Judicial  to  the  health  of  the  men  to  have 
vm  that  was  turned,  broke  into  new  beer  in 
^  tun,  which  haUi  been  hitherto  practised ; 
vUic&tt  flrdef^  ihe  said  beer  to  be  started. 


to  prevent  such  practice  in  future.  The  coun~ 
cil  also^  upon  tasting  the  beer  for  present  use, 
found  it  good  tasted,  but  very  small,  and 
scarce  fit  to  keep  a  week,  firom  brewing  to 
brewing.  And  the  master  brewer  being  culed 
in,  and  asked  the  reasons  concerning  ue  po- 
verty of  the  beer,  answered,  that  it  could  not 
be  otherwise  during  the  three  sunmier  months, 
firom  the  heat  of  the  weather,  and  drawing  six 
barrels  of  beer  from  a  quarter  of  malt ;  there- 
fore proposed  dnwing  half  a  barrel  less  during 
the  above  monUis.  which  would  make  a  ma^ 
terial  alteration  in  the  quality  of  the  beer. 

.  **  The  oouncil  having  maturely  considered 
the  causes  that  mieht  afiect  the  quality  of  the 
beer,  and  examinea  the  malt  and  hops,  and 
compared  the  same  with  other  samples,  found 
the  malt  good,  but  the  hops  of  an  inferior 
quality;  and  having  likewise  considered  the 
frequent  complaints  made  formerly  in  the 
summer  months,  do  unanimously  recommend 
to  the  board  of  directors,  the  master  brewer's 
proposal,  for  making  no  more  than  five  bar- 
rels and  a  half  of  small  beer  (instead  of  six) 
from  a  quarter  of  malt,  during  three  months 
in  the  summer,  in  order  to  answer  the  com- 
fortable and  siedutary  end  intended  for  the 
general  welfare  of  the  establishment.  Ad« 
joumed." 

Captain  Baillie.  I  beg  leave  to  observe,  my 
lords,  that  this  bad  beer  was  not  during  the 
summer  months,  but  in  October,  that  is  our 
October  in  Greenwich  Hospital. 

Are  there  any  more  minutes  of  the  council 
respecting  the  bad  beer? — Yes,  April  21st, 
asth.  May  8th  and  30th,  1777. 

Read  them. 

Mr.  Ball  reads. 

"  At  a  Council  held  in  the  Royal  Hospital  for 
Seamen  at  Greenwich,  April  81, 1777. 

"  Present,  lieutenant-^vemor  BaiUie ;  cap- 
tain Maplesden,  captain  Lynn^  lieutenant 
Moyle,  lieutenant  Kerr,  lieutenant  Smith, 
captain  Allwrigbt,  captain  Chads,  lieutenant 
Besson,  lieutenant  Le  r  evre,  lieutenant  Ansell. 

^<  The  Minutes  of  the  last  Council  were  read 
and  confirmed. 

*'  The  Ueujtenantrgovemor  acquainted  the 
council  that  ci^itain  Allwru;ht,  the  captain  of 
the  week,  upon  duty,  informed  him,  that 
Adam  Meldrum,  a  pensioner,  had,  in  a  very 
quiet,  decent,  and  orderly  manner,  complained 
to  him  in  behalf  of  himself  and  several  other 
pensioners,  that  their  allowance  of  beer,  for 
several  days  successively,  had  been  of  so  bad 
a  quality,  that  they  could  not  dnnk  it;  that 
the  beer  served  to  them  in  the  morning  grew 
sour  by  the  evening :  that  in  consequence  of 
such  representation,  the  lieutenant-governor 
directed  captain  Allwrigbt,  and  lieutenant 
Ansell,  the  lieutenant  for  the  week,  to  taste 
the  b€>er  at  the  sinks  at  the  usual  hour  of 
serving  it,  and  to  report  to  him  if  there  was 
any  just  cause  of  complaint ;  and  they  having 
reported  to  him  yesterday,  that  they  nad  tast« 


199] 


IB  GEORGE  m.         The  Case  ofCdpUm  Tkamu  Same,         [900 


ed  the  beer  at  the  sinks,  which  was  of  a  veiy 
indifferent  quality,  and  Uie  butler  coniirming 
the  same,  tue  iieutenant-goveraor  lays  the 
matter  before  the  counciL  agreeable  to  the 
17  th  article  of  the  orders  tor  tne  better  regu- 
lating the  pensioners  and  servants  of  the  said 
Hospital. 

"  Adam  Meldrum^  a  pensioner,  being  then 
called  in,  and  asked  what  cause  he  had  to  find 
fault  wiUi  the  beer,  said,  it  had  no  taste  either 
of  malt  or  hops;  that  if  he  kept  it  three  or 
four  hours  it  erew  sour,  and  gave  him  the 
gripes ;  and  tnat  it  continued  in  the  same 
state  the  whole  week ;  and  says,  be  was  in- 
formed it  affected  several  other  men  in  the 
same  manner.  Being  asked,  why  he  did  not 
complain  sooner,  says,  that  several  people 
talked  of  complaining,  but  deferred  it,  in 
ho])es  that  the  beer  would  be  better ;  upon 
which  he  replied,  that  he  would  complain  to 
captain  Chaos,  and  to  captadn  Allwright,  the 
captain  of  the  week. 

^'Joseph  Sunpson,  another  complainant, 
being  asked  if  he  had  any  cause  to  complain  of 
the  beer,  says,  it  was  of  a  sour,  watiy,  cold  qua- 
litv  for  about  eight  or  ten  days  past ;  and  being 
asked,  why  he  did  not  complam  sooner,  saio, 
be  was  sorr^'  to  be  the  first,  hoping  it  would 
be  better,  but  that  the  bad  quality  of  the  beer 
frequently  eave  him  the  gripes ;  and  that  he 
was  served  with  the  beer  at  the  north  side  of 
the  hall. 

"  Several  other  pensioners  gave  much  the 
same  account;  declaring,  that  all  the  men  in 
their  wards  also  complained  of  the  bad  -beer. 
The  two  sink-men  oi  the  east  and  west  dining 
balls,  sai(L  they  imputed  the  bad  beer  to  a 
mixture  of^  beer  ana  water,  sent  in  through 
the  pipes  from  the  brewhouse ;  that  they  had 
complsuned  to  the  butler  three  times  in  eight 
days ;  that  they  had  frequently  seen  20  ^Uons 
of  water  let  in  between  the  old  vat  bemg  out 
and  the  new  vat  turned  on ;  and  the  same 
was  corroborated  by  many  others  that  that  had 
beenpractised  for  some  years  past. 

'^  The  butler  beins  asked,  if  he  knew  the 
cause  of  the  bad  quality  of  the  beer,  said,  he 
supposed  it  to  proceed  from  a  mixture  of  beer 
and  water  turned  on  from  the  brewhouse. 

''Mr.  Fearon,the  master  brewer,  being  call- 
ed in,  and  the  foregoing  declarations  of  the 
pensioners  read  to  him.  was  asked,  to  what 
cause  he  attributed  the  bad  quality  of  the  beer 
for  eight  da;^s  past,  said,  that  the  buUer  sent 
to  inform  him,  that  there  was  water  mixed 
with  the  beer;  and  bavins  enquired  of  Pope, 
the  foreman,  was  informed  by  him,  that  there 
was  a  cock  which  had  communication  with 
the  reservoir  of  water  to  the  pipes  that  convey 
the  beer  from  the  brewhouse  to  the  sinks, 
which  he  supposed  leaked ;  that  he  sent  to 
the  clerk  of  the  works'  office^  and  had  it  re- 
paired. And  Mr.  Fearon  bemg  asked,  whe- 
ther he  found  any  surplus  of  beer  from  the 
quantitv  of  water  let  in  between  the  servings 
fix>m  the  different  vats,  remarked,  that  one 
day  last  week  he  had  three  barrels  and  a  half 
surplus. 


"  John  PopCj^the  foreman,  being  asked  if  he 
knew  the  cause  of  the  bad  quality  of  thebeer, 
said,  there  was  a  leak  m  the  cock  that  com- 
municates with  the  water  firom  the  reservoir 
to  the  main  pipe,  which  he  supposed  mixed 
with  the  beer ;  uiat  he  applied  seven  or  eij^t 
times  to  the  clerk  of  the  works'  office  before 
he  could  get  it  repsured^  and  that  it  was  near 
six  months  since  his  mrst  application ;  that 
when  he  first  applied  to  tne  clerk  of  the 
works'  office,  he  acquainted  the  master  brewer 
with  the  defect 

'^  Mr.  Skecn,  who  attends  for  the  clerk  of  the 
works,  being  called  in,  said,  that  about  a 
month  ago,  Mr.  Fearon,  the  master  brewer, 
sent  a  note  to  the  office,  to  repair  the  pipes  at 
the  brewhouse  that  wanted  mending,  which 
was  done  accordinglr ;  and  that  whenever  any 
application  was  made  from  the  master  brewer 
to  repair  the  pipes,  it  was  done  immediately. 

''  The  council,  from  the  foregoing  declanie- 
tions,  are  of  opinion,  that  the  frequent  com- 
plaints of  the  badness  <^  the  beer  proceeds 
from  the  ready  and  easy  communication  of 
the  water  cocks  with  the  pipes  which  conv^ 
the  beer  fit>m  the  brewhouse  to  the  sinlc 
where  the  beer  is  served ;  and  therefore  re- 
commend it  to  the  board  of  directors,  for  the 
safety  and  security  of  the  pensioners,  that 
their  beer  may  not  be  inpoverished  with 
water,  to  have  the  communication  of  the 
water  cocks  cut  off,  as  the  beer  pipes  may  be 
cleansed  without  them. 

^  Daniel  Ball,  Clerk  of  theCoundL*' 

Was  this  representation  laid  before  the 
board  of  directors  ? 

Capt  Baillie.  Yes,  it  was ;  but  we  receiv- 
ed no  answer:  the  brewer  was  discoitfsed 
with  again,  upon  these  complaints,  by  thetli- 
rectors. 

Mr.  Ibbetson  read  a  Minute  of  the  7th  of 
October  1776,  at  a  Meeting  of  the  Directors, 
&c.  &c. 

Q.  to  Capt.  BailUe.  What  was  done  in 
consequence  of  this  ? — I  don't  recollect  that 
there  was  any  such  desire  to  me  or  the  coun- 
cil, directly  or  indirectly,  in  any  way  what- 
ever, to  survey  the  beer  in  the  brewhouse ; 
nor  was  I  to  be  a  messenger  from  the  board 
of  directors  to  the  council  of  the  Hospital ;  it 
would  well  beccHne  the  directors  themselves 
to  visit  the  brewhouse.  No  such  minute  ever 
appeared  at  the  coimcil :  our  complaint  was 
on  the  9th  of  October,  1775. 

Q.  to  Mr.  Ihbetstm.  Was  capt.  Baillie  pie- 
sent  at  that  meeti^  ? — ^He  was  president. 

Capt.  Baillie  The  board  of  directors  have 
the  expenditure  of  the  money  of  the  Hospital, 
and  not  the  council,  and  therefore  the  obneo- 
tors  are  responsible  that  all  sorts  of  stores  and 
provisions  be  good. 

Mr.  lbbet9on.  It  is  something  extraordi- 
nary that  this  recommendation  to  the  counciL 
which  must  have  been  carried  to  the  councu 
by  somebody,  is  dated  the  7  th  of  October,  and 
on  the  9th  of  October  it  appears  that  thejr 


'9t\       rapeeHmg  Hie  Uogei  HtapUti  ai  Greemoich*        A.  D.  1778. 


[90V 


bd  been  to  tiie  faiewlKMise,  and  started  this 

greitquuithy  of  sour  beer. 

Then  on  the  9th  there  is  an  unanimous  re- 
pnsentttion  to  Uie  board  of  directors;  what 
I  vsDted  you  to  read»  was,  the  proceedings  of 
the  board  of  directors,  in  consequence  of  this 
representation  of  the  9th  ? 

Mr.  /Mef  «m.  I  dont  see  any  thing  upon 
that  minute. 

When  was  the  next  meeting  of  the  directors 
sfterthe9th  ?— The  18th. 

Is  there  no  notice  taken  of  it  there  ? — No ; 
bat  1  remember  very  well,  the  board  of  direc- 
tofSy  xsfoa  some  occasion,  I  don't  know  whe- 
ther it  was  this,  or  upon  some  representation 
of  the  brewer,  thinkmg  it  very  unproper.  to 
make  any  alteration,  or  to  allow  anv  more 
mah  or  bops  than  had  been  usually  allowed, 
far  every  Dody  knew  his  predecessor  had 
breved  good  beer,  and  every  body  knows  his 
successor  brews  very  good  beer. 

Was  any  bo^  punished  in  consequence  of 
das;  the  officer  whose  business  it  was  to  in- 
spect this?  Does  capt.  Baillie  know  of  any 
body  that  was  punished  ? 

Capt  BaiiUe.  I  donH  know  that  any  notice 
vas  taken  of  it. 

Was  the  brewer  dismissed  ? — ^No ;  on  the 
coDtiary,  there  was  bad  beer  again ;  particu- 
larly in  the  months  of  April  and  May,  1777 : 
the  men  assembled  in  a  t)od^,  and  threatened 
to  go  to  the  lords  of  the  Admvalty :  threaten- 
ed to  go  to  St.  James's ;  I  had  oifficulty  to 
keep  Uiem  back. 

Does  Mr-  Ibbetson  laa5w  whether  the 
brewer  or  bop-&ctor  were  dismissed  in  conse- 
(pience  of  this  ? — ^Not  in  consequence  of  this ; 
oat  there  are  manv  entries  by  which  your 
lordships  will  see  tnat  the  board  of  directors 
took  a  deal  of  pains  upon  the  subject. 

Read  the  minutes  of  council  or  the  board  of 
directors,  as  they  come  in  order. 

.  Mr.  Ibbetson  reads  the  Minutes  of  the  Coun- 
dl,  April  81, 1777. 

Mr.  libetton.  There  came  with  it,  at  the 
same  time,  one  of  the  S5th ;  they  were  both 
laid  before  the  board  together :  at  a  meeting 
of  the  board  of  directors,  on  the  dOth^  the  next 
after  this,  two  minutes  of  the  council,  one  of 
the  Sist,  another  of  the  25th'  instant,  were 
Isid  before  the  board :  at  the  next  meeting  of 
the  directors  at  Greenwich,  dated  the  SOth  of 
May,  tlie  board  resumed  the  consideration  of 
the  council  minutes  respecting  the  beer,  and 
took  into  consideration  another  minute  of  the 
8th,  relative  thereto :  at  a  subsequent  meet^ 
iog,  which  is  the  41st  of  May,  a  letter  of  this 
date  iiom  the  steward  was  raid. 

Whether  there  are  any  steps  taken  between 
the  first  complaint  that  was  read,  previous  to 
this,  which,  if  I  don't  mistake,  is  in  October, 
W5,  between  1775,  and  May  1777,  that  is 
wvc  a  year  and  a  half,  whether  any  steps 

were  taken  to  rectify  the  complaints  that  had 
K^eea  made  before  ?-^I  do  beheve  that  there 


were  no  firesh  complaints  laid  before  the  di- 
rectors from  the  council  in  that  interval. 

Were  any  steps  t^en  in  consequence  of 
the  first  coinplaint  in  177.%  by  the  board  of 
directors? — The  board  of  directors  did  under- 
stand what  the  council  had  done  in  going  to 
the  brewhouse,  and  starting  all  that  bad  beec, 
which  I  believe  they  do  not  think  they  were 
perfectly  right  in  doing,  without  consulting 
them;  for  it  was  a  very  large  quantity  of 
beer ;  which,  though  it  was  not  fit  for  the  use 
of  the  men,  it  mi^ht  have  been  of  some  value 
to  the  Hospital ;  in  coi^equence  of  that  step, 
in  the  new  book  of  rules  and  orders,  that  has 
been  published  under  the  charter,  there  is  an 
express  direction,  that  whatever  things  upon 
surveys  shall  be  found  unserviceable,  £all  not 
be  thrown  away  or  destroyed. 

I  want  to  know  .whether  any  ponishmenk 
was  iniiicted  upon  the  brewer,  for  offering  to 
give  to  the  men  such  a  quantity  of  beer  ml 
was  unserviceable  ? — ^I  don't  know  that  thera 


was. 


Was  any  punishment  inflicted  upon  the 
officer  whose  duty  it  was  to  inspect  into  it  ?-^ 
No. 

The  Earl  of  Sandwich.  Was  there  not  a 
man,  a  turncock,  that  was  detected  in  em- 
bezzling the  beer,  and  turned  off  for  it? — That 
is  a  very  curious  anecdote  indeed ;  Uiere  was 
a  man  who  had  attended  at  one  of  those  sinks 
or  places  where  the  beer  is  drawn,  this  man 
appears  by  the  minutes;  his  name  I  have  just 
read ;  he  is  a  principal  complainant  in  this 
business,  and,  as  the  council  afterwards. un- 
derstood, a  man  who  had  stimulated  others 
very  much  to  complain ;  this  man,  in  the  ab- 
sence of  capt.  Baillie,  was  brought  before  the 
council ;  it  was  one  of  those  council  of  four 
only,  that  I  have  ever  attended  since  I  have 
had  the  honour  to  belong  to  the  council.  I 
did  examine  him,  and  took  minutes,  which  I 
believe  are.  now  in  my  box ;  it  appeared  as 
clear  as  possible,  that  this  man  had  embezzled 
great  quantities  of  beer,  had  carried  and  given 
to  the  Doys  more  than  their  proportion,  more 
to  the  helpless  ward  than  their  proportion; 
that  they  nad  given  him  money  and  drams 
for  the  difference.  He  had  embezzled  the  ale 
upon  festival  days  in  large  quantities,  and 
sent  it  out  to  his  own  house ;  upon  all  this 
appearing  to  the  council,  they  Ordered  this 
man  to  be  expelled,  and  I  joined  in  that 
heartily ;  now  the  situation  of  these  sinks, 
where  the  beer  is  drawn,  is  such,  that  it  is  in 
the  power  of  the  sink-men  themselves  to  mix 
the  beer  with  water;  for  there  is  a  water- 
cock,  as  I  understand,  in  order  to  cleanse  the 
beer  away  that  is  spilt,  that  there  is  a  water- 
cock  at  lumd ;  the  beer  is  drawn  off  in  large 
black  jacks,  four  or  five  feet  high ;  it  is  much 
in  the  power  of  men  standing  there  to  draw 
beer,  to  make  up  a  deficiency  uiey  have  occar- 
sioned  by  embezzling,  to  fill  it  up  with  a  little 
water ;  uiat  struck  me  and  the  council,  that 
this  man,  who  was  a  principal  complainant, 
had  been  the  iasUumentifi  Busing  tne  beer; 


A 


•JKBd 


18  OEOROE  III.  ne  Case  ofCapUun  Thmas 


tsof 


iiow«ver  tbitf  enffebealement  was  veryclewiy 
proved,  and  he  was  expelled. 
>  What  was  the  date  of  that  expulsion  ? — 
Upon  referring  to  the  book,  it  is  the  82d  of 
.August,  1777. 

Capt  Baillie,  go  on  with  any  further  account 
jou  have  to  give. — If  your  lordships  will  be 
bO  good  as  hear  the  minutes  of  tne  8th  of 
Ma^,  1777,  read,  and  also  of  the  S6th  of 
April.  / 

Mr.  Ball  reads. 

**  At  a  Council  held  in  Royal  Hospital  for  Sea- 
men at  Greenwich,  April  25,  1777. 

'*  The  master  plumber  to  the  Hospital  de- 
clared, that  it  was  impossible  such  ouantities 
of  water  could  issue  from  any  leak  in  the 
bee^  pipes,  and  proposed  cutting  off  the  water 
cocks  and  fixing  a  key,  and  lodging  it  with 
the  commanding  officer." 

'^  At  a  Council  held  the  8th  of  May,  1777. 

''  In  consequence  of  a  complaint  from  all 
the  pensioners  in  the  east  dming  hall,  this 
morning,  of  the  badness  of  the  beer,  which 
they  remsed  to  take,  that  it  was  watery  and 
ill-t^tcd ;  and  Mr.  Godby,  the  steward,  hav- 
ing, in  the  absence  of  the  lieutenant  governor, 
acquainted  the  captain  of  the  week,  that  it 
was  not  fit  to  be  served  to  the  pensioners,  the 
captain  desired  it  might  be  started  into  casks 
'and  guaged,  and  another  vat  of  firesh  beer 
served  :   and  this  aflemoon,  at  half  past  two 
o'clock,  all  the  men  in  both  halls  complauied 
to  the  lieutenant  governor,  that  thev  beer 
was  ill-tasted  and' wateiy ;  and  he  having  di- 
rected the  captain  and  heutenant  of  the  week, 
with  the  steward*s  clerk,  in  the  absence  of 
the  steward  to  taste  the  beer,  and  report  to 
him  if  there  was  just  cause  of  complaint,  and 
thev  having  reported  to  him  that  the  beer  is 
bad,  ill-tasted,  and  watery,  and  not  fit  for  any 
men  to  drink,  the  lieutenant  governor  there- 
,upon  summoned  a  council,  who  sent  for  se- 
veral pots  of  beer  firom  both  ends  and  the 
middle  of  each  dining  hall ;  and  are  unani- 
mously of  opimon,  that  it  is  thick,  ill-tasted, 
and  watery,  and  not  fit  for  the  pensioners  to 
drink,  therefore  resolved   to   renair  to  the 
l)rewhouse,  to  taste  the  beer  in  tne  vats,  and 
found  two  vats^  numbers  ten  and  sixteen,  of 
the  same  brewmg  not  fit  to  be  served  to  the 
pensioners ;  and  having  tasted  another  brew- 
ing,   which  was  som^ing  better,   ordered 
that  the  same  be  served,  there  being  none  of 
*a  better  sort  in  the  brewhouse.    TKe  master 
brewer  being  asked  what  he  had  to  say  re- 
^^cting  the  quality  of  the  beer,  acknowledge 
tnat  it  was  weak,  ^nd  of  a  very  indifferent 
quality. 

'^Resolved,  that  the  lieutenant  governor  be 
desired  to  wait  upon  the  governor  with  a  copy 
of  the  above  mmutes,  Hoping  he  will  take 
some  method  with  the  board  of  directors  for 
the  relief  of  the  pensioners.    Daniel  Ball.'' 

.    Capt.  BatlHe.    I  have  besides  survevs  of 
the  officers  of  the  Hospital  upon  jlhe  oeer, 


wherein  theyfr^port  the  be^  ao%  to  be  good  ..^ 
the  5th  of  Jiuy^  1774 ;  there  is  a  survey  upoi» 
the  beer. 
Read  those  surv^s. 

"  Royal  Hospital  Greenwich,.  July  5, 1774^ 
**  Sir ;  accoroing  to  your  desire,  we  have 
tasted  the  beer  complained  of,  and  find  it  thick 
and  weak,  but  neither  stinking  nor  sour ;  and 
as  there  is  only  a  small  quantity,  sufficient  to 
serve  two  days,  are  of  Opinion,  that  it  is  not 
so  bad  as  to  be  thrown  awa^,  but  that  the 
pensioners  may  drink  H. — We  are,  Sb-,  your 
most  humble  servants^'  Jarvis  Maplesdeny. 
captain.  A.  Gordon,  lieutenant,  Theodore 
Court,  for  Mr.  Maule,  clerk  of  the  cheque. 

T  am  of  opinion  that  it  is  not  baa  small 
beer.— John  Godby.'^ 
"  To  the  lieutenant  governor." 

Here  is  another  report  signeii  the  dd  oT 
October,  1775. 
Read  it. 

"  Royal  Hospital  Greenwich,  Oct.  2, 1775, 
"  Sir ;  -agreeable  to  your  desire,  we  have 
been  to  the  brewhouse  and  tasted  the  small 
beer  for  the  use  of  the  pensioners ;  but  as  the 
master  brewer  has  intimated  to  us,  that  he  is 
to  give  his  reasons  to  the  board  of  directors 
ne.vt  Saturday,  relative  to  the  said  beer,  we 
beg  leave  to  postpone  our  opinion  for  the  pre- 
sent— We  are.  Sir,  your  most  humble  ser- 
vants, Francis  Lynn,  W.  Lefevre,  J.  Hossack^ 
John  Godby;  for  Mr.  Maule,  Theodore 
Court." 
"  To  lieutenant  governor  Baillie." 

Were  they  a  committee  fi-om  the  council 
or  from  the  directors  ? — The  brewer  intimated 
he  was  to  dve  his  reasons  to  the  bowd  of  di* 
rectors,  and  not  to  the  council. 

Were  those  people  who  have  signed  that 
report  a  committee  of  the  council  ?  Did  the 
council  authorise  them  to  make  the  survey  ? 
— ^No;  ,it  has  beeh  the  custom  firequently, 
upon  particular  occasions,  for  the  command- 
ing officer  to  order  such  a  survey. 

Are  there  any  rules  and  orders  authorizing 
the  Heutenant  eovemor  to  order  such  a  sur- 
vey ? — I  don't  know  that  there  are ;  it  has 
been  the  custom. 

There  was  no  person  punished  for  this 
beer? — ^Neither  the  brewer,  his  servant,  the 
steward,  nor  the  clerk  of  the  cheque,  nor 
either  of  tlieir  clerks,  that  I  know  of. 

Whose  business  is  it  to  inspect  the  beer? — 
The  steward  and  the  clerk  of  the  cheque,  and 
their  clerks,  are  to  inspect  the  brewery. 

The  BaA  of  CheUerJield.  Whether  the  beer 
has  been  in  general  good,  or  in  general  bad,  in 
the  Hospital? — There  have  been  a  great  num- 
ber of  Complaints. 

That  is  not  an  answer.  I  want  to  know  if, 
in  general,  the  beer  was  bad }  You  sud  many 
people  preferred  being  put  upon  the  butler*s 
list,  beoiuse  by  that  means  the)r  had  their 
small  beer  at  the  Hospital,  which  is  free  ircMn 
excise,  and  better  than  tlw^y. could  buy;  I 


'SnS]        re^eeUmg  the  Royai  Hospittd  at  Greenmch*         A.  D.  1778. 


[S06 


ka\  tfamk  bad  beer  is  better  than  money  to  | 
buf  good ;  I  tiwat  to  have  that  explained  ? — ^1 
dool  understand  that  the  small  beer  is  alwieiys 
kd;  but  these  last  four  years  it  has  not  been 
^  beer,  such  as  might  have  been  expected" 
ID  a  royal  brewhouse.  I  don't  know  the 
OBBber  pot  upon  the  butler^s  list  annually ; 
tliBc  may  be  ten  or  twenty  added,  in  a  year, 
BD  ereat  number. 

ms  tbat  been  the  reason  the  last  four  years, 
as  vellas  fonner  years  when  the  beer  was  good, 
t)f  ben^  put  upon  the  butler's  list  ?>-The  peo- 
jk  upon  the  butler's  list  get  almost  as  much 
aswhcD  they  are  upon  the  money  list. 

Hive  the  numbers  differed  ? — ^I  don't  know 
as  to  that  point ;  many  of  the  men  prefer  the 
butler's  list  to  the  money  list. 

Mr.  Godby  called  in  again. 

Eave  there  been  any  complaints  made  of  the 
badness  of  the  beer,  since  Luke  Davis  has 
been  expelled  P — I  don't  recollect  one. 


Wednesd4i^y  March  S4. 

The  Lords  met  again  on  the  business. of 
Greenwich  Hospital. 

The  Duke  of  Richmond  rose  and  moved, 
*Thatthe  chairman  of  the  committee  do  leave 
the  chur,  and  that  the  House  be  resumed." 

His  g|race  insisted  upon  it,  that  as  he  meant  to 
tomolnn  of  a  breach  of  privilege  i^inst  capt. 
UaiMesden,  for  sending  sway  from  the  House, 
wtaesses  imder  summons  from  their  Itfrdships, 
his  motion  was  a  matter  of  right,  and  not  of 
debate;  that  all  complaintsof  breach  of  privi- 
lege, according  to  the  standing  orders  on  the 
journals,  must  supersede  every  other  business ; 
he  therefore  would  not  recede  from  urging, 
-that  the  House  be  resumed. 

His  mce  defended  the  pensioners  who  had 
dieereu  the  lords,  as  they  entered  the  House, 
and  said,  that  tnere  was  no  breach  of  the 
peace' in  their  conduct;  th&t  the  warmth 
they  shewed  did  them  honour;  that  it  was 
the  characteristic  of  British  seamen ;  a  sam- 
ple of  that  honest  zeal,  to  the  repeated  exer- 
tions of  which  this  country  owed  all  its  great- 
ness, its  happiness,  and  its  glory !  He  also  laid 
it  down  as  a  matter  of  nght,  for  the  pen- 
sioners, or  for  any  other  persons  whose  cause 
cither  was,  or  was  not,  unaer  the  consideration 
t>f  ]iariiament,  V6  Stand  in  the  street  near  the 
^oon  of  parliament,  so  long  as  they  did  not 
commit  what  the  law  term^  a  riot,  or  what 
the  law  construed  a  breach  of  the  peace ;  on 
the  other  hand,  he  argued,  that  captain  Ma^ 
plesden  had  been  guilty  of  a  eross  insult  lb 
that  House,  in  a  most  unjustilable  piece  of 
conduct  respecting  the  pensioners.  What- 
^er  might  be  the  discipline,  even  the  neces- 
Miy  diaapline  of  the  Hospital  at  Greenwich. 
^  held  it  as  a  matter  exceedingly  clear  ana 
•obvious,  that  when  the  pensioners  were  sum- 

^ned  as  witnessBes  df  tn&t  House,  that  during 
w  operation  of  the  susmionsi  aU  discipline, 


respecting  them  as  (>ensioners,  must  be  sui- 
pended ;  they  were  in  charge  of  their  lord- 
ships, and  not  subject  to  the  controui  of  any 
other  persons  whatever.  That  telling  the 
witnesses  that  he  would  mark  them,  arid 
holding  up  his  cane,  were  tokens  of  awe,  and 
tokens  of  menace,  which  he  could  prove  MV. 
Maplesden  used,  and  which  might  nave  a  bad 
effect  on  the  minds  of  men,  who,  from  their 
situation,  were  under  his  influence  as  lieute- 
nant-governor. 

His  grace  said,  such  a  mode  of  conduct 
might  effectually  check  and  prevent  the  ob- 
ject of  the  present  enquiry,  which  was  the 
discovery  of  truth.  Upon  the  whole,  he  con- 
tended, that  the  matter  highly  demand^  their 
lord^ps'  attention,  and  that  the  present  was 
of  all  periods  the  most  proper  to  take  it  under 
consideration ;  because,  if^  it  were  not  imme- 
diately enquired  into,  such  pensioners  as  It 
should  appear  necessary  to  call  to  the  bar,  in 
the  future  course  of  the  enquiry,  would  be 
afraid  to  speak  out,  if  they  were  not  certain  of 
meeting  with  the  protection  of  their  lordships ; 
and  the  lieutenant-governor  might  go  on,  pu- 
nishing and  im])bfiing  mulcts  upon  the  wit- 
nesses, if  he  were  not  given  to  understand, 
that  the  House  kept  a  wary  eye  on  his  pro- 
ceedings. 

The  Lord  Chancellor  as  strenuously  con- 
tended, that  captain  Maplesden's  conduct  ra- 
ther merited  the  prusc  than  the  censure  of 
their  lordships.     He  declared  he  had  himself 
observed  tiie  mob  of  pensioners,  at  the  door  of 
the  House,  when  he  alighted  fit>m  his  coach ; 
that  their  behaviour  was  very  improper  and 
unseemly;  that  he  expected  to  have  heard 
something  relative  "to  it,  in  the  course  of  last 
Wednesday's  business ;  that  it  was  extremely 
wrong  to  suffer  the  doors  of  parliament  to  be 
besieged  either  by  Greenwich  pensioners,  or 
by  any  other  description  of  persons,  whose 
cause  was  under  parliamentary  enquiry ;   the 
example,  thouzh  m  the  present  case  not  very 
alarming,  might  be  extended  so  far  as  to  be- 
come matter  of  serious  wrong  ;  that  the  peers 
of  that  House,  or  the  members  of  the  othef, 
oueht  to  have  free  and  undisturbed  access  to 
bo3i  chambers  of  parliament.    If,  however, 
the  noble  duke  was  resolved  to  make  a  formal 
complaint  of  a  breach  of  privilege,  undoubted- 
ly he,  or  any  other  peer,  nad  a  right  to  prefer 
such  a  complaint ;   in  that  case,  be  intreated 
the  noble  duke  to  consider  whether  it  would 
not  be  better  to  let  the  complaint  stand  over 
till  the  enquiiy  was  ended ;   he  was  not  hini- 
self  aware  that  an^  pensioner  who  had  been 
summoned  as  a  witness,  had  been  prevented 
from  attending ;   if,  however,  the  noble  dixkp 
had  proof  of  any  such  matter,  the  proceeding, 
let  it  originate  from  what  quarter  it  might, 
was  an  atrocious  act,   and  merited    severe 
censure. 

In  answer  to  the  learned  lord's  sayins  that 
the  House  was  besieged,  the  duke  of  Rich- 
mond declared  he  had  not  heard  of  any  sort 
of  siege,  but  a  siege  of  cheers  and  kisses  from 


1 


207] 


18  GE0ROE  IIL  The  Cote  of  Captain  Thomas  Baillie, 


[SOS 


old  men  and  old^omen,  pensioners  and  nurses 
in  the  Hospital,  entreating  to  have  their  old 
lieutenant-governor  agadn:  that  he  under- 
stood several  lords  were  almost  smothered  in 
the  way  from  their  carriages  to  the  staircase. 

Lord  Fortescue  declared,  for  one,  that  he 
never  had  been  so  kissed  in  .his  life ;  that  it 
was  rather  unfair  in  the  women  to  attack  him 
in  that  manner,  and  open  their  trenches  be- 
fore him  as  they  had  done,  because  he  was 
now  an  old  man,  and  could  not  open  his  bat- 
tery upon  them  in  return. 

The  Earl  of  Mansfield  supported  the  Lord 
Chancellor,  saying,  however,  that  he  passed 
through  a  double  rank  of  pensioners,  who  only 
huzza'd,  and  called  out  for  the  restoration  of 
their  old  lieutenant-governor.  The  Lord  Pre- 
.sident^poke  also  on  the  same  side. 

Lord  Camden  and  the  duke  of  Graflon  on 
the  side  of  the  duke  of  Richmond.  The 
former  asserted  that  the  pensioners  had  a 
right,  a  legal  and  a  constitutional  right  to  as- 
.  semli^e  before  the  door  of  parliament ;  that 
every  British  subject,  an^  eveir  man  in  ex- 
istence, let  his  station  m  life  be  what  it 
might,  had  the  same  right ;  and  he  hoped  to 
God,  the  day  would  never  come  when  that 
right  should  be  taken  away. 

His  lordship  added,  that  he  had  observed 
the  learned  lord  on  the  woolsack  had  only 
said,  that  the  pensioners  had  assembled  at 
the  doors  in  an  unseemly  manner,  by  which 
expression,  he  conceived,  the  learned  lord  did 
not  mean  to  dispute  their  right  of  assembling 
as  a  matter  contrary  to  law. 

The^  Duke  of  Kichmond,  in  reply  to  the 
mention  which  had  been  made  of  the  word 
^  *  riots'  by  the  noble  speakers  in  support  of  the 
Lord  Chancellor,  said  he  was  no  friend  to 
riots ;  that  he  thought  as  ill  of  them  and  their 
abettors,  as  any  man  could  possibly  do ;  that 
it  was  grossly  perverting  the  meanmg  of 
language,  to  apply  the  word  '  riot'  to  an  as- 
sembly of  the  poor  pensioners  at  \he  door  of 
the  House  the  preceding  Wednesday,  who  at- 
tended only  with  an  humble  petition ;  that  he 
remembered  what  really  deserved  the  name  of 
riots,  and  that  was,  the  assembling  of  the 
weavers  at  the  door  of  the  House  some  years 
ago :  he  remembered  the  proceedings  of  the 
committee  instituted  to  enquire  into  the  pro- 
per mode  of  pimishing  those  rioters,  and  the 
.sudden  manner  in  which  those  proceedings 
were  stopped ;  why  they  were  so  hastiw 
stopped,  the  lords,  who  undertook  that  busi- 
ness, best  knew. 

Lord  ShelbumCf  with  his  usual  perspicuity, 
supported  the  duke  of  Richmond.  He  began 
with  professing  his  extreme  candour  in  the 
whole  business  of  the  enquiry ;  that  he  was 
determined  to  keep  himself  oerfectly  impar- 
lial,  neither  to  give  any  juagment,  nor  to 
Bufter  any  opinion  to  be  dniwn  from  him  till 
he  had  heard  the  whole  of  the  evidence,  and 
was  fully  competent  to  decide  on  the  subject. 
He  was  free  to  confess,  that  all  he  knew  pre- 
vious to  the  commencement  of  the  present 

§ 


enquiry,  was  from  reading  Mr.  Baillte's  book, 
above  a  year  ago ;  that  it  was  then  sent  him, 
for  he  liad  not  soudit  after  it;  that  captain 
Baillie  had  since  called  repeatedly  at  his  door, 
but  he  never  had  seen  him ;  that  he  had  not 
an  idea,  that  the  noble  lord  at  the  head  of  the 
Admiralty  could  possibly  be  proved  to  have 
been  at  all  concerned  in  causing  bull  beei^ 
bad  veal,  bad  shoes  and  stockings,  and  sour 
beer,  to  be  served  out  to  the  poor  pensioners. 
That  the  noble  lord  certainly  must  be  al^ve 
an^  such  petty  larcenv  baseness,  however  he 
might  appear  neglectml  in  not  having  taken 
proper  care  of  the  navv.  or  in  discharge  of  the 
other  leading  duties  of  nis  offices,  as  president 
of  a  great  and  important  board,  where  he 
might  be  employed  with  much  honour  to 
himself,  and  advantag^e  to  the  public,  in  fitting 
out  his  fleets  and  giving' his  orders  there; 
that  he  would  own,  were  he  in  the  noble  lord's 
place,  he  had  much  rather  stand  accused  of 
the  greater  crimes  of  neglect  of  the  navy,  &c. 
than  have  it  imputed  to  him  that  he  had 
either  encouraged,  countenanced,  or  winked 
at  any  such  nitifiil  frauds  and  impositions  on 
old  men,  ola  women,  and  helpless  children,  as 
the  present  enquiry  tended  to  bring  to  li^ht, 
and  in  which  the  noble  lord  seemedso  highly 
interested  by  his  regular  attendance. 

At  length  the  &r\  of  Sandwich  rose,  and 
begged  tnat  the  noble  lord  might  be  per- 
mitted to  quit  the  chsdr,  and  that  the  House 
might  be  resumed.  He  said  the  present  de- 
bate looked  to  him  like  an  intention  either  to 
check  or  procrastinate  the  enquiry,  or  to  ground 
a  pretence  for  putting  a  stoo  to  it  altogether ; 
that  it  was  his  interest  ana  his  wish  that  it 
should  proceed. 

His  lordship  said  it  would  be  unjust  to  him 
if  any  sort  of^  impediment  was  thrown  in  the 
way  of  the  enquiry.  He  considered  the  coiv- 
duct  of  captain  Maplesden  as  highly  lauda- 
ble ;  he  had  no  doubt  it  would  appear  so,  and 
therefore  he  beeged  that  the  House  would  also 
do  the  captain  the  justice  to  suffer  it  to  be  en- 
quired into. 

At  length  thf  question  was  put,  and  carried 
to  examine  witnesses  op  a  breach  of  pri* 
vilege. 

dharlet  Smith,  a  boatswsdn,  was  called  in, 
being  one  of  those  persons  who  was  threatened, 
severely  mulcted,  and  reduced  to  a  private 
pensioner  by  captain  Maplesden,  for  not  dis- 
pers&B£  what  he  called  a  mob,  tliough  be 
shewed  him  an  order  for  his  attendance  on  the 
House,  when  this  witness  appeared  and  was 
sworn. — The  duke  of  Richmond  put  the  fol- 
lowing question  to  him : 
^  Didcaptain  Maplesden  threaten  you  with  a 
cane  or  stick  over  vour  head,  at  the  door  of 
this  House,  on  Wednesday  last? 

The  Lord  Chancellor  immediately  inter- 
rupted his  grace,  by  putting  the  question 
thus: 

When  captain  Maplesden  came  down  to 
the  door  of  the  House,  what  did  he  do  ? 

Upoa  this  Qbvious  alteration,  the  duke  of 


819]        re^aeeting  the  Royal  HoipUal  at  Greenxvich.'        A.  D.  1778. 


[210 


SidDBODd  instantly  ordered  the  witness  to 
witiMlnw,  and  as  soon  as  he  had  withdrawn, 
J»  ^race  chaiged  the  Ijord  Chancellor  with 
knng  assumed  a  ri^ht  to  alter  his  question,  a 
poogativeVhich  did  not  belong  to  nim. 

The  Duke  of  Grafton  very  warmly  attacked 
tiK  learned  lord  on  the  woolsack,  and  spoke 
to  his  want  of  &imess  and  candour  with  a  verv 
becoming  spirit  His  grace  said  the  breath 
liad  scarcely  escaped  the  lips  of  the  learned 
lord,  which  served  him  ib  express  the  ques- 
tioD,  before  it  was  perverted ;  observing  at  the 
ame  time,  that  he  would  never  suffer  such  a 
conduct  to  pass  uncensured,  whilst  he  had  the 
Ixuuur  of  a  seat  in  that  House ;  it  is  true,  he 
aid,  persona  may  be  called  up  there  for  the 
purposes  of  administration;  if,  however,  a 
day  ^uld  arrive  when  the  House  swarmed 
with  lawyers ;  if  the  benches  were  stuffed  full 
of  pleaders,  he  hoped  the  ancient  and  here- 
ditary nobles  of  the  land  would  have  spirit 
enough  to  resist  the  confident  incroachments 
of  that  profession,  and  would  neither  suffer 
sense  and  reason  to  be  cavilled  away  in  verbal 
fetinction,  nor  the  forms  and  orders  of  their 
proceedings  to  be  altered  at  the  will  of  any 
one  lord,  however  high  in  office,  however 
great  his  abilities,  however  respectable  his 
efaancter.       « 

The  Lord  Chancellor  lefl  the  woolsack,  and 
sud  he  was  exceedingly  astonished  to  hear 
himselT  accused  of  havins  assumed  any  thing 
which  did  not  properly  belong  to  his  situa- 
tioD ;  that  on  the  present  occasion  he  had  no 
dificul^  to  admi^  that  he  had  altered  the 
words  of  the  noble  duke's  question ;  in  justifi- 
cation, however,  of  his  conduct,  he  had  only 
to  say,  that  he  wished  to  expedite  the  pro- 
ceeding of  the  enquiry,  and  therefore  took 
Upon  him  to  alter  the  question,  as  it  ap[>eared 
to  him  to  be  a  leading  Question,  which  in  his 
gnce^s  form  could  not  oe  put,  without  8on\e 
alteration ;  but  as  it  was  rather  in  point  of 
form  than  in  substance,  he  should  have  first 
nmonstrated  with  the  noble  duke,  and  then 
have  asked  his  permission  to  have  changed  it. 
His  kyrdship  then,  instead  of  defending  the 
diputy  of  a  private  birth  on  the  equal  line  of 
tttuie,  descanted  on  the  labours  of  his  pro- 
fession as  a  compensation  for  the  honours  at- 
tached to  it,  ana  that  those  labours  which 
liereditaiy  lords  were  not  bom  to,  should 
Bttke  them  happy  in  their  own  situations, 
without  reflectine  on  those  of  others ;  that 
▼hen  he  looked  back  on  ^e  lineage  of  Uie 
JDoent  and  hereditary  nobility  of  the  king- 
dom, it  was,  however,  not  a  little  flattering  to 
^,  that  a  great  many  of  the  nresent  peers 
m  spnmg  from  men  who  had  filled  the  office 
he  had  tioMB  honour  to  hold,  and  some  fit>m 
P^ns  not  equally  intitled  to  the  honours 
▼hich  they  poKessed. 

The  Eari  of  Mansfield  justified  the  Lord 
Chancellor's  mode  of  altenng  the  question, 
"w  mid  it  was  a  common  custom  in  both 
liouses  of  Parliament,  for  the  ease  of  busi- 
^^'^l  that  he  bad  sat  many  years  in  both 
VOL  XXI. 


Houses,  and  had  oflen  been  a  witness  to  it, 
and  never  heard  it  objected  to  before. 

The  Duke  of  Richmond  ably  defended  the 
propriety  of  his  question,  and  having  shewn 
the  advantageous  ground  of  truth  over  law, 
declared,  that  the  learned  lord's  quoting  the 
custom  of  the  other  House  of  Parliament 
should  not  satisfy  hitn.  That  the  learned  lord 
on  the  woolsack  liad  no  right  to  alter  his 
question  without  consulting  him,  and  that  if 
he  did  not  allow  that  he  hau  assumed  an  im- 
proper power,  he  would  move  the  House  in 
form,  that  the  learned  lord  had  done  what  he 
was  not  warranted  to  do  by  the  forms  of  the 
House. 

The  Lord  Chancellor  again  \^h  the  wool- 
sack, and  repeated  what  he  had  said,  in  ac- 
knowledgment of  his  having  no  right  to  alter 
any  lord's  question ;  he  declared  he  had  done 
it  for  the  sake  of  accommodating  business : 
that  as  to  consulting  the  noble  duke,  he  had 
no  right  tp  consult  hun,  for  that  the  moment 
the  noble  duke  had  uttered  the  question,  it 
became  the  question  of  the  House,  and  the 
proper  mode  would  have  been  for  him  to  have 
appealed  to  the  House,  if  the  question  ought 
to  be  put.  He  thought  it,  however,  much 
more  manly  to  confess  an  error  than  to  persist 
in  it,  and  therefore  he  was  easy  in  declaring, 
that  he  had,  though  from  a  good  motive, 
acted  contrary  to  oraer. 

The  Duke  of  Richmond  admitted  what  the 
learned  lord  had  said  as  a  sufficient  explana- 
tion, and  jocosely  added,  *^  That  hereditary 
birth  did  not  always  exclude  persons  from 
laboijr;  for  though  he  was  bom  noble,  and 
was  not  in  office,  he  believed  the  leanted  lord 
would  not  say  he  had  never  any  labour  upon 
his  hands/' 

At  length  the  Committee  proceeded  to  exa* 
mine  witnesses,  and  Charles  Smith,  boat-, 
swain,  was  again  called  in  and  examined. 


Wednesday,  March  34, 1779. 
Charles  Smith,  a  Pensioner,  caUed  in  again. 

Inform  the  House  whether  you  were  here 
any  day  last  week. — ^Yes ;  last  Wednesday. 

Were  you  ordered  to  attend  the  House  ? — 
Yes. 

You  had  received  an  order  to  attend  the 
House? — ^Yes. 

As  a  witness  ? — Yes.     . 

Did  you  attend  it  ? — ^Yes. 

Inform  the  House  what  captain  Maplesden 
said  to  you,  what  passed  between  you  P — No- 
thing, tnat  I  know ;  but  we  attended  here ; 
we  were  giving  three  cheers  to  every  lord,  and 
wishing  maX  we  might  receive  our  lieutenant' 
governor  Baillie  again :  captain  Maplesden 
came  out  and  ordex^  silence,  and  ordered  me 
to  withdraw  the  men  off;  I  said,  if  he  could 
not  do  so,  to  so  many  hundred  men,  how 
could  I  do  it  ?  accordingly  he  ordered  me  to 
withdraw  myself:  I  said,  Ihad  as  much  riglit 
i  as  another  man  to.  stand  there,  and  I  staid 


Sll] 


18  GEORGE  III.         The  Case  o/Ca^ain  Thomas  BaUUe,  [SIS 


there  till  the  duke  of  Bolton  came  up ;  and 
when  the  duke  of  Bolton  came  up,  he  spoke, 
and  asked  what  was  the  reason ;  and  I  said, 
that  we  all  staid  there  for  the  sake  of  wishing 
that  we  might  have  our  ]ieutenant-»)vernor 
into  the  house  again^  that  was  all  uiat  was 
said,  and  the  mob  all  dispersed  directly;  if 
you  call  it  a  mob,  there  was  no  mob  in  the 
case,  no  auarrelling,  but  only  gave  three 
cheers  to  the  lords,  and  we  all  dispersed  di- 
rectly. 

Was  that  upon  the  duke  of  Bolton's  desire  ? 
—Yes ;  he  desired  us  to  withdraw. 

What  did  captain  Mapiesden  do  to  you  ? — 
He  ordered  me  to  come  and  draw  the  people 
off;  I  told  him  if  he  could  not  do  it,  how 
could  1 ;  for  I  was  but  one  man  ?  he  said, 
then  get  away  yourself;  I  said,  I  had  a  right 
to  stav  there,  as  well  as  another  person. 

Did  captain  Mapiesden  do  anv  thing  to 
you  ? — ^He  came  witn  his  stick,  with  a  flourish 
over  mc,  and  went  to  run  it  in  my  face.  I 
said,  it  is  a  thin^  beyond  my  ability ;  if  you 
cannot  do  it,  which  way  can  I  ?  he  up  with  his 
stick,  and  was  going  to  shove  it  into  my  face, 
because  I  did  not  do  it.  As  soon  as  the  duke 
of  Bolton  spoke  to  me,  af^r  we  had  given 
eyery  body  cheers,  we  withdrew  directly  j  not 
by  my  order,  but  by  the  good  consent  of  every 
body ;  after  they  gave  the  lords  three  cheers 
When  they  came  in,  then  we  withdrew. 

How  long  were  the  three  cheers  after  caj^- 
tain  IVIaple^cn  had  been  talking  with  you? — 
Kot  more  than  a  quarter  of  an  hour. 

Whether  you  said  any  thing  to  captain  Mar- 
plesden,  relative  to  your  beii^  summoned  to 
attend  this  Hquse? — ^Yes.  and  pulled  out  my 
pocket-boo]^  to  shew  nim  my  summons; 
moreover,  he  did  not  take  it  from  me,  but  I 
put  it  into  my  book  agaui,  ailer  ^e  people 
had  all  withdrawn. 

What  did  captain  Mapiesden  say,  when  you 
shewed  him  the  summons  ? — ^Nothing  at  all 
then,  for  he  did  not  take  it  out  of  my  hand, 
and  so  I  nut  it  in  my  book  again ;'  afler  we 
had  done  that,  we  spoke  to  the  auke  of  Bolton 
agam,  and  then  we  all  withdrew. 

Are  you  very  sure  that  you  mentioned  to 
captain  Mapiesden,  that  the  paper  that  you 
shewed  him  was  a  summons,  or  a  subpana, 
from  the  House  of  Lords  ? — Yes. 

You  are  sure  of  that?— Yes,  and  pulled  it 
out,  and  was  gomg  to  shew  it  to  him,  but  he 
did  not  take  it  out  of  my  hands,  but  I  opened 
it  to  him. 

When  did  you  return  to  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital ?— That  same  night 

What  happened  to  you,  after  you  returned 
to  Greenwich  Hospital  ?— The  very  next  day 
he  ordered  all  of  us,  that  he  picked  out  as  he 
thought  proper,  to  appear  at  his  own  house, 
and  he  kept  us  all  in  doors  and  examined  us : 
after  examining  us,  bringing  us  to  a  coimcil 
that  we  have  in  our  house  once  a  week ;  but 
instead  of  that,  he  made  a  private  council  of 
it ;.  he  broke  me,  that  is,  taking  U .  6d.  out  of 
8*.  6d,  wliich  la  my  sala^  per  woek. 


You  were  summoned  to  a  council  ?-'«^Not 
siunmoned  to  a  council ;  he  ordered  Ms  there 
instead  of  summoning  us  properly  to  the  coun- 
cil-room, as  it  should  be;  he  made  a  priTate 
council  of  it  to  himself,  and  so  calledf  us  all, 
one  by  one ;  and  as  for  my  part,  he  examided ' 
me  so ;  at  last  he  damned  me,  and  bid  me  be 
get  out  of  his  house :  I  made  answer,  I  did^ 
not  want  to  come  there,  if  he  had  not  sent 
for  me.  On  the  Mqnday  following  he  had  a 
council  on  it ;  he  brought  me  to  the  council 
and  broke  me,  and  he  broke  another;  he 
mulcted  another  30<.  and  another  10s.  and 
another  5$.  and  another  4«. ;  and  then  he  ex- 
pelled a  nurse  of  the  house,  for  three  montlu  ; 
and  the  man  that  was  mate  of  the  Painted 
Hall,  he  happened  to  kick  a  dog  in  the 
Painted  Hall,  and  he  was  turned  out  of  tft]# 
house. 

What  do  you  mean  by  saying  captain  Ma- 
piesden broke  you? — I  am  a  boatswain  of  the 
Hospital,  and  I  wear  this  lace;  now  he  has 
broke  me,  and  taken  this  lace  away;  and  out 
of  my  pay,  which  is  Ss.  6d,  a  week,  he  hae 
taken  I5.  6d.  away,  and  I  have  but  Is.  re- 


mainmg. 


Was  that  done  by  the  order  of  the  council  ? 
— By  his  own  order ;  it  was  a  private  council. 

On  what  day  was  that  council? — ^It  was  a 
private  council,  which  should  have  been  on 
the  Friday,  he  brought  it  on  the  Monday. 

Was  any  other  j^unishment  inflicted  upon 
you? — I  was  to  go  mto  the  hall  and  stand  in 
the  pillory,  and  ask  his  pardon. 

Whether  you  did  go  into  the  hall  and  stand 
in  the  pilloiy? — ^Ycs. 

What  was  the  crime  you  was  chareed  with  f 
— For  disobeying  his  orders  at  the  House  of 
Lords,  in  not  taJdng  the  mob  off  as  he  or- 
dered, which  was  a  thing  impossible  for  ma 
to  do. 

Whether  you  saw  captain  Mapiesden,  on 
the  Wednesday,  endeavour  to  drive  away  any 
other  person  nrom  the  door  of  the  House  ? — 
No,  he  only  pitched  upon  me ;  and  as  he  did 
it,  another  man,  a  man  that  attends  upon  our 
omce,  took  our  names  down,  and  another  fel- 
low that  was  there,  was  his  witness ;  so  there 
they  took  down  what  few  people  th^  pitched 
upon,  and  tliose  he  owed  an  animosity  to ;  ha 
took  our  names  down. 

Whether  you  did  go  away,  on  the  Wednes- 
day, in  conseauence  of  captain  Maplesden's 
order  ? — Not  airectly,  not  before  we  were  dona 
with  here,  at  the  House  of  Lords,  then  wa 
went  home. 

Was  it  your  charge  to  bring  the  witnesses 
fi*om  Greenwich,  to  the  House  of  Lords  ?•«- 
No,  only  1  came  up  in  the  coach  along  with 
them ;  but  these  people  were  all  here  long  be>- 
fore  we  came. 

Whether  you  cheered  aa^r  paitkulsr  lordhL- 
or  whether  you  could  disttn^sh  one  lord 
from  another? — ^Not'at  all ;  we  cheered  evoy 
one  as  they  came  by. 

Who  set  you  to  cheer  the  lords  ? — ^No  soulp 
it  was  by  nobody's  order,  but  only  by  the 


ilSl        re$peeting  tie  Royal  Hospital- at  Greetttmck.         A.  D.  I77S. 


[214 


■m's  own  good  will.  We  witnesses  did  not 
JoNW  that  &e  pensioners  were  all  here. 

Who  put  jou  upon  cheering  the  lords  at  all? 
— Ood  Almighty  knows,  it  was  their  own 
doiu. 

Du  any  body  v^  you  upon  cheering  the 
knls?-No. 

Was  it  of  your  own  thought? — Our  own 
gDod  wills. 

Were  you  the  oldest  boatswain  attending,  or 
lideiedio  attend  the  House? — No. 

Whether  any  of  the  pensioners  that  were 
SDomioned  to  attend  the  House  of  Lords,  to 
gne  evidence,  were  sent  away  bef<»-e  they  had 

S'  m  their  evidence  ? — ^We  did  not  go  away 
ore  the  House  of  Lords  broke  up. 

How  many  pensioners  were  there  ? — God 
Ueasmysoul!  I  cannot  tell. 

As  near  ay  you  can  guess? — ^I  suppose  3  or 
100. 

Were  they  all  witnesses  ?— No,  no ;  not  we 
witnesBes;  I  don't  speak  of  them ;  I  sprak  of 
the  people  thai  were  cheering. 

How  many  of  them  were  there  that  were 
witneaaes  ? — ^I  believe  about  a  dosen. 

Whether  you  met  with  any  obstruction  in 
coming  down  to  the  House  of  Lords  to  give 
your  evidence? — ^No;  we  came  down  very 
ivdl,  and  went  home  aeain  verv  SMBife;  nobody 
afionted  us,  only  Mr.  Maplesden. 

Did  captain  Maplesden  obstruct  your  com- 
ingU) ^ve  evidence ? — ^No. 

Did  captain  Maplesden  order  all  of  you,  or 
the  witnesses  only,  to  so  ? — All. 

Did  captain  Maplesden  ever  order  you  liot  to 
come  agam  ? — ^No,  he  never  was  against  that.* 

When  you  retired,  was  it  at  the  order  of 
captam  Maplesden  or  at  the  desire  of  the  duke 
of  Bolton? — ^I  must  tell  you  the  truth;  by  the 
duke  of  Bolton's  order. 

How  long  had  captain  Maplesden  ordered 
jou  to  retire  before  tne  duke  ot  Bolton  ordered 
yoQ  ?— About  a  quarter  of  an  hour. 

Whether  captain  Maplesden  ordered  you  to 
retire  after  you  had  shewn  him  the  summons 
from  the  House  of  Lords,  or  before  ? — Before ; 
1  offered  to  shew  him  tlTc  summons  then,  but 
be  would  not  take  it  out  of  my  hand 

Did  captain  Maplesden  order  you  to  retire 
tfter  vou  had  shewn  him  the  summons  ? — 
Yes ;  but  we  did  not  disperse  before  we  gave 
the  last  three  cheers;  nut  before  the  duke  of 
Bolton  spoke  to  us. 

Whether  captain  Maplesden  ordered  you  to 
retire  afier  you  had  shewn  him  the  summons 
feom  the  House  of  Lords  ? — Directly ;  he  did 
not  take  it  from  me,  but  he  ordered  me  to  re- 
tire then,  and  I  sua  I  had  as  much  right  to 
stay  there  as  any  one  there. 

When  was  tliat  ?  Before  he  ordered  you  to 
go,  or  ailerwards? — Afterwards. 

Was  it  before  or  ailer  you  shewed  him  the 

paper  ? — ^It  was  at  the  time  I  shewed  him  the 

paper;  when  I  put  it  up  into  my  pocket-book, 

Ml  told  him  that. 
I)id  he,  after  you  had  shewn  him  the  paper, 

Wtt  you  to  ga  home  ?— No,  ke  did  not. 


Do  you  not  ufiderstand  that  each  pensioner 
of  CKreenwich  Hospital  has,  by  leave,  a  right 
to  be  absent  124  hours  ? — ^Yes. 

Were  all  these  that  came  here  undec  that 
description,  persons  that  had  a  right  to  the  S4 
hour's  absence? — They  were  all  at  home :  I 
question  whether  there  were  five  of  them  laid 
out. 

Have  any  officers  of  the  Hospital,  if  men 
are  absent  during  those  24  hours,  any  more 
right  than  any  other  persons,  without  they 
find  those  men  are  actmg  disorderly,  to  order 
them  to  disperse? — ^No.  They  ask  leave  bo* 
fore  thev  come,  out,  and  they  may  stay. 

Whether  captain  Maplesden  ceased  giving 
you  any  orders  as  soon  as  you  shewed  him  th6 
order  of  the  House  of  Lords  for  your  attend- 
ance ?— He  spoke  no  more  to  me;  he  never 
gave  me  any  more  orders  aAerwards. 

He  did  not  order  you  to  retire  ? — ^Not  after ; 
he  had  no  more  to  say  afterwards  to  me. 

How  long  have  you  been  in  Greenwich  Hos» 
pital  ?-^£leven  years. 

How  long  have  you  been  a  boatswain  there  ? 
— ^Ten  years  and  ten  months. 

How  long  had  vou  been  at  sea  before  you 
went  to  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — Forty  years. 

In  what  service  have  you  been? — Thirty 
years  in  the  king's  service. 

Were  you  ever  in  the  East  Indies  ? — ^Yes. 

And  in  the  West  Indies? — Yes;  ax^  at 
Newfoundland,  and  other  places. 

Did  you  use  any  other  words  to  captaia 
Maplesden,  except  that  you  had  as  gooa  a  right 
to  be  there  as  the  other  people  ? — No  other 
words,  as  I  know ;  not  any  words  of  impu- 
dence. 

Were  you  ordered  back  to  Greenwich? — 
No. 

Only  to  keep  farther  joff?— Yes ;  and  I  came 
into  the  lobby  ^erwards. 

[Charles  Smith  withdrew.] 

Mary  RoKy  a  nurse,  a  seaman's  widow. 

What  passed  between  you  and  captain  Ma- 
plesden, on  Wednesday  last,  at  the  door  of 
the  House  ? — ^^^hen  captain  Maplesden  came 
out,  he  shook  his  cane  over  his  nead,  and  bid 
us  disperse,  when  we  were  seeing  the  honour- 
able tne  House  of  Lords  come  in. 

Over  whose  bead  did  he  shake  his  stick? — 
Over  his  own  h^ ;  and  bid  us  disperse  by 
order  of  the  House  of  Peers. 

Wliat  did  captain  Maplesden  sa^? — He 
swore  a  very  ^eat  oath,  and  bid  us  disperse; 
and,  damn  it,  if  we  did  not,  he  would  mark  us 
all,  and  punish  us  very  severely  when  we  came 
home. 

W^ere  you  punished  ?— Yes ;  I  was  brought 
before  the  honourable  council,  and  mulct  half 
my  wages  for  seeing  the  honourable  peers 
come ;  and  was  very  oasely  ill  used  by  what 
he  was  pleased  to  say  to  me  besides. 

What  did  he  say  ?— -He  made  use  of  a  great 
many  words,  called  me  hussy  and  jade,  and 
used  a  great  many  words  not  proper  to  makt 
use  of  before  your  lordship^. 


215] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaiUie, 


Were  you  summoned  to  attend  the  House 
on  Wednesday? — I  was;  and  I  told  him  so; 
and  he  damned  me,  and  asked  me,  how  I 
dared  to  come  without  an  order  from  the 
house. 

What  house  do  you  understand  he  meant 
by  saying  an  order  from  the  house? — That  I 
did  not  ask  leave  of  Greenwich-house;  I 
thought  the  summons  was  sufficient. 

Did  he  order  ybu  to  go  away  after  you  said 
you  was  summoned  by  order  of  the  House  of 
Lords  ?— Yes,  he  did ;  and  told  me  he  would 
mark  me  for  so  doings  and  take  notice  of  me 
when  I  came  home. 

'  How  much  were  you  fined  ? — ^Twenty  shiU 
]ine:s. 

Where  did  captain  Maplesden  bid  you  go? — 
He  bid  us  disperse  and  go  home ;  these  were 
the  words  he  said.^ 

Did  you  shew  captain  Maplesden  the  sum- 
mons of  this  House?-— Captain  Maplesden 
knew  very  well  that  I  was  summoned;  he 
asked  me,  and  I  told  him^  Yes ;  he  did  not 
ask  me  to  shew  it  to  him. 

Did  you  offer  to  shew  it  to  him  ? — No ;  he 
did  not  ask  it,  and  I  did  not  shew  it. 

Was  jt  said  to  you  in  particular,  or  to  you 
all  together  ? — He  .bid  us  all  disperse. 

Then  what  he  said  was  no  more  spoke  to 
you  than  to  the  rest? — No;  he  bid  us  all  dis- 
perse ;  and  he  told  me,  when  he  went  by  me, 
that  he  would  mark  me  when  I  got  faiome ; 
and  so  he  did.  [Mary  Rose  withdrew.] 

Dorctkjf  Perrtfy  a  seaman's  widow,  called  in. 

Were  you  at  the  House  of  Lords  on  Wed- 
nesday last  ? — ^Yes. 

Dia  you  see  captain  Maplesden  there  ? — 
Yes. 

What  passed  between  captain  Maplesden 
and  you? — ^When  he  came  out  of  the  coffee- 
house, there  were  a  parcel  of  people  standing 
by  the  side  of  the  conee-hous«^  pretty  near  the 
door  of  the  House ;  when  he  came  out,  he 
came  up  to  boatswain  Smith ;  he  passed  me ; 
boatswain  Smith  stood  beside  me :  he  turned 
to  him ;  he  had  a  cane  in  his  hana ;  he  ran  it 
up  close  in  boatswain  Smith's  face,  and  damn- 
ed him,  and  asked  him  how  he  came  there : 
boatswain  Smith  said  his  feet  brought  him 
there :  captain  Maplesden  damned  his  feet, 
and  desired  him  to  take  all  the  men  and  wo- 
men home,  and  take  every  body  awav.  He 
said  he  did  not  bring  them  there,  and  it  was 
not  his  business.  Captain  Maplesden  said  if 
he  did  not,  he  would  punish  him.  Boatswain 
Smith  said  he  could  not  help  it,  whether  he 
did  punish  him  or  not,  for  he  could  not  take 
the  people  away.  Captain  Maplesden  said,  if 
he  did  not,  he  would  mark  him. 

Did  any  thing  else  pass  in  your  hearing  ? — 
Not  concerning  captain  Maplesden ;  we  came 
away /soon  afler. 

Did  captain  Maplesden  say  any  thing  to 
you  in  particular? — ^No.  He  spoke  to  boat^ 
swain  Smith  to  call  us  all  away.  Us  that  had 
summonses  said  wc  had  summonses^  and  had 


therefore  a  right  till  we  were  taken  into  this 
House.  Your  lordships  had  not  all  come  in 
then. 

Did  you  tell  captain  Maplesden  that  ^ou 
were  summoned  ? — ^I  told  it  in  his  hearings 
close  by  him ;  when  boatswain  Smith  said  hm 
had  a  summons,  he  damned  him,  and  us  all, 
and  told  him  to  take  us  away,  and  the  sum- 
monses too. 

Did  captun  Maplesden  order  you  to  go 
away,  or  to  go  to  any  pardcular  place  ? — He 
did  not  order  us  to  go  to  any  place  here  in 
London ;  he  ordered  us  to  go  to  Greenwich. 

What  time  of  day  was  it  that  he  said  this  ? 
— About  two  o'clock,  to  the  best  of  my  know- 
ledge. 

Did  you  stay  till  this  House  was  up  ? — Yes  ; 
we  staid  till  the  House  broke  up  that  night ; 
it  was  about  eight  o'clock. 

Did  all  the  witnesses  stay  till  ,the  House 
was  broke  up  ? — ^Yes. 

Did  the  rest  of  the  people  disperse  ? — ^Yes  ; 
every  body  but  them  that  were  summoned, 
went  away  directly. 

[Dorothy'Perry,tiursc,  withdrew.} 

After  the  examination  of  these  three  wit- 
nesses, who  fiilly  proved  the  menaces  and 
mulcts  of  captain  Maplesden  towards  them, 
it  was  moved  by  the  duke  of  Richmond,  that 
the  captain  might  be  summoned  to  answer 
for  this  breach  of  privilege  to  the  House :  but 
it  was  contested  warmly  by  the  other  side  on 
the  ground  of  impropriety. 

The  Lord  Chancellor,  lords  Mansfield  and 
Bathurst  (for  all  their  arguments  ran  in  the 
same  stream)  stated,  that  as  there  was  no  de- 

See  of  criminalitv  proved  agdnst  captain 
aplesden,  it  would  be  contrary  to  their  lord'^ 
ships'  justice  to  order  his  attendance. 

The  duke  of  Richmond,  lord  Camden,  and 
many  other  lords  combatted  this  doctrine 
with  great  calmness,  clearness,  and  precision ; 
lord  Camden,  in  particular,  asked  what 
greater  degree  of  instdf  could  be  offered  their 
lordships,  than  by  attempting  to  drive  away 
witnesses  from  tneir  attendance  ?  As  to  the 
actual  forcing  them  away  he  did  not,  proba- 
bly because  it  was  not  m  his  power,  but  he 
held  out  terror  todhem,  to  do  so ;  nc  com- 
manded them  away,  threatening,  with  oaths 
and  imprecations,  to  mark  them;  and  to 
confirm  all  this,  the  veiy  next  morning,  with- 
out waiting  for  the  usual  council  day,  he  fined, 
and  otherwise  punished  them  severely  as  de- 
linquents. 

Notwithstanding  this,  a  majority  of  55  to 
SO  thought  there  was  no  manner  of  occa- 
sion for  captain  Maplesden's  attendance. 

Adjourned  till  to-morrow. 


I 


Thundi^f  March  S5,  IfTQ. 

Captain  Baillie  called  in. 

Whether  there  have  been  an^  abuses  in 
the  linen  in  Greenwich  Hospital  ?-~There 
have  been  many  complaints  mi|ue  to  fne.bjr 


917]        respecting  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Greenmch.         A.  D.  1778. 

tbe  pensioners  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  that 

the  Quality  of  the  linen  has  been  very  diffe- 

lent  from  what  it  used  to  be,  that  it  has  de- 
creased in  size  as  well  as  in  goodness. 

Iiiibrm  the  House  whether  you  made  any 
esperimenti^  to  know  whether  it  was  de- 
creased in  size  ? — ^In  consequence  of  that  in- 
formation, I  sent  the  proper  people,  as  I 
thought  they  were,  the  boatswains  and  nurses, 
isto  the  difierent  quarters  of  the  Hospital,  to 
iDeasurethe  linen  throughout  the  Hospital,  in 
particular  in  the  infirmary,  where  I  thought 
it  was  of  the  most  consequence ;  the  persons 
who  measured  the  linen  there,  brought  re- 
ports to  me  that  all  the  men's  sheets,  upon 
an  avera^  were  deficient  in  half  a  yard  in 
eveiy  pair,  one  with  the  other ;  some  wanted 
a  vara,  some  three  quarters  of  a  yard,  and  the 
average  about  half  a  vard  upon  the  whole, 
leneially  throughout  tne  Hospital. 

Is  there  any  body  here  that  can  speak  to 
that^There  are  the  people  here  who  mea- 
sured it;  they  likewise  measured  the  shirts; 
Thomas  Field  measured  them. 

As  to  the  eoodness  of  the  linen  that  has 
been  delhrered  out  at  this  time,  in  comparison 
with  what  has  been  dehvered  out  before,  have 
3rou  any  samples  of  that  ? — There  are  patterns 
of  what  they  had  some  few  years  ago,  and 
what  they  have  now. 

Have  you  some  with  you  now  ? — ^I  brought 
them  with  me  for  that  purpose,  that  there 
misbt  be  no  mistake  as  to  the  evidence. 

fie  so  good  as  to  produce  them. — [Captain 
BaiiUe  iiroduces  several  samples.  J  This  is  the 
bed-ticking  the  men  were  allowed  formerly, 
such  as  any  nobleman  in  this  House  might 
lie  upon  in  comfort,  lliis  is  what  they  have 
now;  it  is  an  inferior  quality,  not  worth  a 
quarter  put  of  the  money  of  the  other ;  it  has 
induration  in  it,  it  is  not  fit  for  the  pen- 
siouers  of  Greenwich  Hospital.  This  is  what 
they  used  to  have  formerly  ibr  their  shirting ; 
it  is  of  a  verv  good  quality ;  there  is  a  blue 
ttripe  in  it,  that  there  might  be  no  reduction 
whatever  in  the  cutting  it ;  the  mode  now  is 
peatly  altered,  there  is  no  such  precaution 
tiJceD^  the  linen  is  not  worth  half  tne  money, 


nor  will  it  last  half  so  long ;  it  is  obliged  to 
be  patched  and  mended  before  a  year  is  out ; 
ttuke  manner  the  nurses  of  the  Hospital,  a 
Quniber  of  whom  are  very  respectable  charac- 
ters, there  ire  a  matter  of  24  of  them  that  are 
sca^lficers'  widows,  reduced  to  that  sad  ne« 
<^ty  of  benig  common  nurses;  the  gowns 
^y  give  them  are  not  so  good  as  th^  used 
to  be,  they  are  worse  than  work-house  clothes, 
vorse  tha^  pauper's  linen ;  these  are  the  pat- 
terns, [producing  them]  their  pillow-cases  are 
niade  now  of  dowlas,  of  a  bad  quality,  for- 
^^y  it  was  a  very  good  cloth,  such  as  any 
body  nueht  lay  their  heads  upon  in  comfort ; 
theh"  beos  were  formerly  filled  with  very  good 
*ool,  and-  flock  of  the  finest  sort,  now  it  is  ra- 
^htt  a  cutting  of  mops,or  something  of  that  sort. 
7*  Ho  is  tl»e  person  that  measured  the  linen? 
r-i  nomas  Field. 


[218 

Mr.  Maule,  the  Clerk  of  the  Cheque,  called  in. 

Have  you  made  out  that  account  ^ou  were 
ordered  to  do  ? — I  have.  [It  is  dehvered  to 
the  House.] 

Thomas  Field,  one  of  the  Boatswains,  called  in . 

Did  you  measure  any  linen  belonging  to 
the  Hospital  at  any  time  ? — ^Yes. 

How  much  did  ypu  measure? — ^I  measured 
388  pair  of  sheets  m  the  infirmary. 

How  much  did  they  measure  ?-^They  mea^ 
sured  half  a  yard  short  and  better  in  each  pair 
of  sheets. 

Half  a  yard  short  of  what? — Of  the  cloth ; 
I  had  been  told  bv  the  lieutenant  governor, 
that  they  were  to  be  two  yaida  and  one  half 
long,  five  yards  in  each  sheet ;  there  are  two 
breadths  in  a  sheet. 

Upon  an  average,  how  much  did'  they  mea- 
sure short  of  that  ? — Better  than  hdf  a  yard. 

In  each  pair,  or  in  each  sheet? — ^In  each 
pair. 

Upon  what  niimber  pf  sheets  did  you  say 
you  made  this  measurement  ? — 388  pair. 

And  upon  each  of  the  388  pair,  it  I  under- 
stood you  right,  there  was  a  deficiency  of  half 
a  yard  ? — ^There  waA  in  each  pair. 

Did  you  measure  any  other  linen  ? — Yes, 
all  the  boatswains  in  the  House  had  orders 
to  measure  the  linen  that  belonged  to  the 
pensioners  that  were  in  their  division. 

Did  you  measure  them  ? — ^I  measured  the 
linen  that  was  in  the  division  that  I  belonged 
to ;  they  run  95  yards  short  upon  shirts  and 
sheets,  160  sheets,  and  160  shirts. 

What  you  mentioned  before  related  to  the 
mfirmary  ? — ^Yes. 

What  you  speak  of  now  relates  to  your 
ward  ? — ^i  es. 

And  in  your  ward  how  much  did  you  find 
short  in  the  sheets  and  shirts  ? — 95  yards. 

What  do  you  imagine  was  the  allowance 
for  shirts? — ^I  was  told  three  yards  and  an 
half. 

Did  you  measure  the  linen  in  any  other 
wards  ? — No,  none  at  all  but  the  division  I 
belonged  to,  and  the  infirmary  sheets. 

[Thomas  Field  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Godby,  the  Steward,  called  in. 

Is  there  any  allowance  made  in  the  Hospi- 
tal for  the  measure  of  sheets  and  shirts  ? — 
Three  vards  and  an  half  tor  a  shirt,  and  five 
yards  for  a  sheet.  ' 

Were  the  sheets  less  than  they  usedi  to  be 
the  last  time  they  were  cut,  at  the  time  that 
they  mention? — ^I  believe  they  are  full  as. 
long  now  as  ever  they  were,  and  are  made  in 
the  same  manner  in  ever^  respect. 

But  were  they  not  half  a  yaid  less  in  each 
pair  of  sheets  than  before  ? — No. 

Are  you  positive  and  clear  in  that? — ^Yes ; 
it  cannot  be ;  if  any  sheets  are  shorter  than 
the  standard,  it  is  because  the  pieces  of  sheets 
ing  run  a  certain  length,  and  we  cut  them  so 
as  not  to  leave  any  remnants;  that  is  thQ 


ii9] 


IS  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  TJujuas  Bailiie,  [SSO 


estabUsiunent  in  the  Ho^ital,  and  has  beeo 
always  the  practice;  at  least  for  40  years 
back  to  Mr.  Bell's  time ;  I  have  pursued  the 
^  same  method,  and  employed  the  same  people, 
and  I  have  no  reason  to  believe  that  tney 
have  made  away  with  any  of  it. 

You  say  there  is  the  same  quantity  in  the 
sheets  now  as  fm-merly  f — The  same. 

How  could  it  happen,  that  the  sheets,  when 
measured,  appeared  to  be  half  a  yard  less  ? — I 
fancy  it  will  not  appear  so^  when  your  lord- 
ships oaii  upon  the  derk  or  the  cheque's  clerk, 
who  is  a  cheque  upon  my  office ;  he  receives 
these  sheets,  and  is  a  cheque  upon  them. 

You  are  positive  they  are  the  same  size  as 
usud  ? — ^Yes,  the  same  size  as  usual. 

Whether  you  speak  absolutely  from  having 
measured  the  present  sheets?—)  have  seen  a 
greatjnany  oftliem  meakored,  aad  I  believe 
all  the  linen  is  accounted  for  very  clearly;  it 
appears  so  to  me. 

I  wish  to  have  a  direct  answer ;  have  you 
measured  all  these  sheets  yourself? — ^Not  all ; 
it  is  impossible  I  can  measia^e  8  or  9,000  pair 
of  sheets ;  that  cannot  be  supposed,  I  should 
imagine ;  I  have  seen  a  great  many  of  them 
measured. 

Upon  what  convicti(m  then  do  you  deliver 
this  evidence, to  the  House?  You  positively 
ysert  they  are  the  same  lene[th  the  old  ones 
used  to  be,  without  any  kind  of  diminution  ? — 
I  have  seen  some  of  them  measured,  and  have 
measured  several;  I  have  taken  here  and 
there  one  of  a  quantity  when  they  are  made, 
and  haye  measured  them  the  same  as  they 
used  to  be  in  every  respect. 

What  quantity  may  you  have  measured 
yourself? — ^When  there  have  been  two  or 
three  hundred  pair  at  a  time  delivered  into  my 
/office,  I  have  measured  three  or  four,  and 
have  been  satisfied.  If  I  have  found  a  de- 
ficiency in  any  respect,  I  have  looked  farther 
^to  it. 

What  is  the  measure? — Of  the  sheets  five 
yards. 

Did  those  you  measured  measure  five 
yards? — They  measured  something  under, 
because  we  cut  them  so  as  not  to  make  any 
lemnants. 

I  ask  you  the  positive  measure  of  what  you 
measured  yourself? — Sometimes  a  nail  of  a 
yard  short,  sometimes  two  nails  short.  - 

But  none  of  them  were  poatively  five  yards 
long  ?—  Some  of  them  were. 

Of  what  lengUi  were  the  shtets  that  you 
did  measure  yourself? — Sometimes  a  full 
length,  sometimes  wanting  a  nail  of  a  yard,  at 
iother  times  two  nails  perhaps;  but  then, 
when  I  came  to  enquire  into  the  matter,  I 
found  that  it  should  be  so ;  a  piece  of  sheet- 
in|g,if  it  runs  40  yards,  would  make  five  pair 
ofsheets,  but  they  run  38  and  an  half,  and  S9, 
and  39  and  an  half;  they  are  generally  about 
,  that  length,  and  then  we  make  just  the  same 
sheets  as  if  they  run  40 ;  it  is  an  advantage  to 
the  Hospital,  and  is  the  method  that  was  al- 
ways adopted  by  the  former  stewards. 


Is  it  not  somebody's  province  to  measure 
ail  the  sheets  ? — ^The  people  in  my  office  mea- 
sure a  number  of  them,  but  not  all  of  them,  I 
dare  say. 

Whether  or  not  the  measuration  you  have 
taken  of  these  sheets  was  befi^re  or  after  the 
complaint  was  made  by  captain  Baillie?«- 1 
have  measured  them  since  the  complaint,  and 
I  hove  measured  them  before. 
"  Is  it  your  office  properly  to  measure  this 
linen  ? — It  is  with  the  clerk  of  the  ch^ue, 
never  without  him. 

Is  it  your  practice,  as  well  as  your  office, 
constantly  to  measure  them?— Yes,  we  aU 
ways  measure  some :  I  hardly  ever  knew  it 
otherwise,  and  I  constancy  attend. 

What  is  the  reason,  if  it  is  your  duty,  that 
you  don't  measive  them  all  ? — ^It  is  impossible 
for  me  to  measure  them  all,  the  nature  of  tiie 
.  business  would  not  admit  of  it. 

Wh^  is  it  impossible  ?— On  account  of  the 
quantity  of  it;  becauseif  we  were  todo  bu^ 
smess  m>  that  way,  there  would  be  a  need  of 
ten  stewards  and  ten  clerks. 

Would  there  not  be  time  enough  for  you 
and  the  clerk  of  the  cheque  to  take  your 
leisure,  if  you  have  not  sufficient  time  imme* 
diately,  to  measure  the  whole  number  ? — I  ap^ 
prehend  it  is  a  thins  that  could  not  b^  ex* 
pected  of  any  steward. 

Is  the  whole  number  measured  by  any 
body  ? — I  don't  believe  they  are,  indeed  I  ant 
certain  they  are  not. 

Have  you  always  took  the  measure  upon 
the  faith  of  the  contractor  to  be  according  to 
the  contract? — No,  I  measure  here  and  men 
a  piece;  if  I  find  a  deficiency  or  a  yard  or 
half  a  yard,  I  go  farther,  and  measure  more, 
and  if  there  is  a  yard  deficient  in  any  one  of 
those  pieces,  I  deduct  a  yard  from  every  one 
<^  those  pieces  I  receive. 

If  from  the  number  of  sheets  you  have 
spoken  to,  you  hod  found  a  deficiency  of  half 
a 'yard  upon  every  pair  of  ^sheets,  should  not 
you  have  thought  it  worth  your  while  to  com- 
plain to  some  body ,  of  the  Hosnital,  in  order 
to  rectify  that  abuse  ?— Certainly  not,  these 
sheets  have  been  delivered  out  of  my  care  a 
twelvemonth. 

If  in  the  measurement  of  the  sheets  you 
yourself  had  discovered  a  deficitocy,  whether 
you  would  not  have  thou^t  the  Hospital 
greatly  defrauded  by  such  a  deficiency  r — It 
could  not  happen  in  my  ofilice. 

But  I  ask  you  if  you  had  discovered  a  de» 
ficiency  ? — ^If  so,  certunly . 

If  again,  id  the  measurement  of  388  {>air  of 
sheets,  you  had  discovered,  as  the  witoess 
discovered,  a  defidenc^r  of  196  yards,  which 
he  has  sworn  to  upon  us  measurement,  would 
not  you  have  thought  that  a  fraud  too  ?— Not 
if  it  was  accounted  for  some  other  way. 

I  ask  you,  if  upon  your  ^measurement  yw 
had  found  the  deficiency  ? — No  doubt  of  it ; 
if  there  was  a  deficiency  of  190  odd  yards^ 
there  must  be  a  firaud  somewhere. 

Do  you  know  of  any  complaints  bttog 


M]     .  reipecttngike  Uoyal  Ho^piUiat  Oreimdch*        A.  D.  1778. 


i%s» 


mfe  to  the  council  of  a  deficiency  in  the 
boen  ?— None. 

You  said  the  sheets  were  delivered  out  a 
vur  b^«e  they  were  measured;  will  not 
vashing  contract  linen  ?— We  must  make  aU 
knrances  certainly  for  cutting  out,  we  must 
mke  aUowances  for  hemming,  and  for  the 
shiinkins;  in  the  washing. 

Whemer  upon  the  delivery  of  the  sheets, 
jou  do  or  do  not  apprehend  it  to  be  the  duty 
of  the  steward,  before  they  have  been  washed, 
to  measure  the  sheets,  or  at  least  to  measure 
such  a  Quantity  as  you  think  they  may  be 
able  to  Qo  ? — If  I  vinderstand  the  question 
right,  it  is,  whether  I  measured  the  sheets 
before  or  after  the  washing ;  I  have  nothing 
to  do  with  them  after  they  are  washed,  and 
therefore  could  not  have  measured  them  after 
tbey  were  washed,  except  what  were  returned 
to  IDT  office. 

Whether  you  understand  that  linen  slmnkd 
or  ^tietohes  bv  washing? — ^I  understand  it 
sfaiinks  hy  washing ;  I  have  tried  the  experi- 
ment within  these  six  months. 

What  has  been  the  result  of  the  experiment  ? 
—1  saw  five  vards  of  sheeting  cut  off,  the 
dak  took  it  home,  and  had  it  made  in  his 
own  family,  and  washed,  and  then^  brought  it 
to  BIT  office  again;  upon  measuring  it,  we 
fomidithad  shnmk  near  two  nails  of  a  yard 
iocne  sheet ;  now  that  would  come  out  some- 
tibingniore  upon  wearing,  I  should  think  half 
a  uu,  but  never  near  the  fiill  length. 

I  istnild  ask  you  not  what  you  conjecture, 
\hSl  whether  you  made  anV  experiments  of 
measuring  the  sheets,  ana  measuring  the 
sune  sheets  after  it  YaA  been  wash^  and 
noit  for  a  twelvemonth  ? — ^No,  I  have  not. 

You  mentioned,  that  when  a  piece  of  linen 
no  sooMwllat  short,  that  they  cut  the  pair  of 
sheets  that  were  last  made^  so  much  snorter, 
in  order  not  to  cut  a^ew  piece  ?^We  deduct 
somelhine  firom  every  sheets  or  else  the  last 
dieet  womd  be  so  short,  it  would  not  be  fit  for 


How  far  is  tout  rule  to  go  by,  when  you 
find  a  piece  snort  of  its  measure  ?  You  say 
fcrty  yatds  ought  to  make  five  pah-  df  sheets? 

i€8k 

Suppose  a  piece  of  linen  is  thirty-nine 
3fiids?-— Then  we  make  fji  allowance  ac- 
cordingly, we  divide  it  equally. 

Suppose  it  is  thirty-ei^ht  yards? — ^We  di- 
vide it  accordingly ;  but  if  it  is  only  thirty- 
aeyen  or  diirtyHMven  and  an  half,  so  that  we 
think  the  piece  would  be  too  abort  for  use, 
that  there  would  be  a  complaint,  we  make 
only  seven  sheets  and  leave  a  remnant. 

What  is  'die  precise  nile  you  go  by  to  term 
tbeyiece  too  short,  whether  it  is  thirty-seven 
jwos,  or  thirty-seven  yards  and  an  half  ?— It 
u  kfk  to  the  judgment  of  the  persons  that  cut 
them. 

Who  are  those  persons  ? — ^Two  of  the  clerks' 
^viveshave  <xlt  them  for  late  years  before  my 
Woiatmenty  and  before  my  predecessor's,  I 


.  Who  are  those  people  ? — ^My  first  clerk's 
wife,  and  the  clerk  of  tne  cheque's  wife,  I  be*, 
lieve,  cut  them  all. 

It  is  entirely  left  to  their  discretion,  whether 
they  choose  to  cut  any  quantity  that  may  be 
in  a  piece  Into  five  sheets?— My  clerk  often 
applies  to  me  to  know  my  opinion;  if  he  has 
any  doubt  about  matters  of  that  kind^  he  has 
applied  to  me  to  know  what  I  would  have 
done  in  that  case,  and  I  have  given  him  di- 
rections accordingly. 

I  understood  you  to  mention  two  women  ? 
— Yes,  but  under  his  inspection. 

Whose  ?— My  clerk's,  and  under  my  own 
when  he  lipplies  to  me. 
•  Is  it  left  to  the  women  or  clerk's,  or  your 
discretion,  or  whom  is  it  left  to,  to  be  deter- 
mined, wnat  quantity  shall  be  put  into  eight 
sheets?— When  we  deliver  the  linen  out,  I 
take  it  down  in  a  writing,  upon  paper,  so  many 
yards  delivered,  to  be  made  into  sheets ;  the* 
cleirk  of  the  cheque,  or  his  clerk,  is  present, 
and  cheques  that  account;  when  they  are 
delivered  in,  we  see  that  it  answers  to  that 
account,  as  near  as  possibly  may  be ;  We  must 
make  some  little  allowance;  if  there  appears 
an  inch  in  a  sheet  short,  we  suppose  it  may  be 
from  cutting,  or  some  such  thing. 

You  say,  forty  yards  is  to  make  eight 
sheets ;  is  there  not  any  rule  by  which  th^ 
number  of  yards  is  ascertained,  that  is  Xxs 
make  four  pair  of  sheets ;  suppose  the  priece 
is  thirty-six,  thirty-seven,  thirty-eicht,  thirty- 
nine  or  forty  yards,  have  you  any  rule  when  to 
stop,  and  not  to  make  four  pan-  of  sheets  out 
of  the  piece  ? — ^They  know  my  instructions 
and  directions  in  general,  whicn  are  to  make 
five  yards  in  a  sheet,  but  if  the  piece  nms,  so 
as  by  deducting  a  little  firom  each  sheet,  they* 
Mali  make  the  liill  number,  then  it  is  left  to 
them ;  but  upon  deliverii^  them  into  my  of- 
fice, if  I  think  they  are  made  too  short,  I  send' 
for  those  people,  and  give  them  my  directions 
to  cut  thenr  longer  inmture. 

Is  the  committee  to  understand,  that  your^ 
directions  go  to  these  people,  in  case  there' 
is  a  little  fess,  that  you  leave  that  little^  to* 
their  discretion,  and  then'  they  are  to  brmg 
them  to  you,  and  vou  are  to  judge  whether 
they  have  used  that  discretion  properly  or 
not?— Certainly  so. 

ITien  are  you  answerable  whether  they  use^ 
that  discretion  properly? — ^Yes,  I  and  the- 
clerk  of  the  cheque. 

Then  whether  you  ever  heard  of  those  three- 
hundred  and  eighty-eight  pair  of  sheets  being 
deficient  half  a  yard  in  each  pair  of  sheets  ? — 
I  iMive  read  it  in  Mr.  Bailhe's  chaise  before 
the  committee,  I  believe,  but  never  before ;  I 
am  not  sure  though  whether  it  was  not  made 
to  the  board  of  directors  upon  my  represent- 
ing the  matter ;  how  it  was  to  the  committee 
that  he  afterwards  brought  a  fi'esh  charge  be- 
fore the  board  of  directors,  which  was,  to  the 
best  of  my  recollection,  heard'  before  the 
bos^,  and  I  believe  there  isammuteupon 
it,  but  I  cannot  recollect  when  it  was. 


223] 


18  GE0&6E  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  Baillie,         [23i 


Did  you  take  anv  pains  after  this  measure- 
ment has  bebn  made,  and  you  heard  of  it,  to 
examine  these  sheets,  and  have  them  mea- 
sured again  ? — ^No,  I  did  not. 

Did  you  have  any  of  the  shirts  measured  to 
see  how  they  were? — ^Yes,  wl^en  they  were 
returned  into  my  office. 

What  doypu  mean hy  when  they  wercretum- 
ed  into  your  office?— Of  late  there  has  been  a 
number  of  pensioners  serving  in  his  Majes- 
ty's yard,  and  they  have  wore  out  their  linen 
.  much  more  than  if  they  had  not  been  emploVed, 
and  at  the  end  of  a  serving,  we  have  had  three 
or  four  hundred  shirts  returned,  which  have 
been  washed  and  delivered  out  according  to  my 
discretion ;  I  have  delivered  out  four  or  five 
hundred  within  this  twelvemonth  of  that  kind, 
and  when  I  have  taken  in  the  old  ones,  I  have 
had  them  measured,  to  see  if  there  was  that 
deficiency  as  complained  of,  and  talk^  about 
the  Hospital. 

Had  you  any  measurement  made  of  those 
sheets  of  which  the  witness  that  has  been  l&st 
at  the  bar  has  given  an  account  in  hb  ward  ? 
— ^No,  I  had  not;  I  have  nothing  to  do  with 
them  in  his  war^. 

Have  you  measured  any  of  the  sheets  ill 
tlie  infirmary  ? — ^No. 

You  said  that  there  were  five  hundred,  1 
think,  returned  into  your  office ;  I  want  you 
to  explain  whether  you  measured  those  shirts  ? 
— ^I  measured  some  of  those  upon  being  re- 
turned into  my  office. 

How  did  they  turn  out? — They  did  not  turn 
out  as  represented ;  I  remarked  it  to  my  clerks 
and  people  in  the  office,  that  those  shirts  were 
what  I  thought  a  good  length,  and  what  one 
might  expecl^  allowing  for  making,  and  pro- 
per allowances  that  ought  to  be  made  in  my 
opinion. 

You  say  they  did  not  turn  out  as  represent- 
ed, by  whom  represented? — By  the  lieute- 
nant-governor Baillie;  so  far  as  I  thought, 
they  were  a  good  and  proper  length. 

Did  vou  measure  tnose  complained  of  in 
the  infirmary? — I  did  not;  I  aid  not  know 
in  what  part  of  the  Hospital  he  had  been  to 
measure. 

Whether  the  contractors  are  not  required  to 
deliver  in  their  pieces  as  near  to  forty  yards 
as  possible  ? — ^They  are  Russia  sheeting,  and 
they  generally  run,  I  apprehend,  about  that 
length ;  it  is  not,  as  they  are  Russia  goods,  in 
our  power  to  alter  them;  we  buy  them  at 
so  much  a  yard,  and  therefore,  when  we  take 
in  the  pieces,  it  they  are  thirty-seven  yards, 
th^  are  marked  on  the  outside,  and  I  mea^ 
sure  here  and  there  a  piece,  to  see  wheUier 
^ey  run  the  length  they  are  marked. 

And  would  it  Be  impossible  to  have  all  the 
pieces  of  that  length,  if  they  were  required  to 
send  them  in  of  tluit  length  ?— I  cannot  speak 
to  that  question;  but  f  Apprehend,  as  they 
are  made  in  Russia,  that  it  would  not  be  an 
easy  matter  to  do. 

Whether  they  are  not  paid  according  to 
the   number  of  the  yards  they  contain?— 


According  to   the  number  of  yards  they 
contain. 

Then  the  Hospital  only  pays  for  thirty- 
seven  yards,  if  the  piece  contains  no  more?-^ 
No. 

By  what  authority  or  order  is  this  measure- 
ment settled? — ^By  a  former  steward;  it  is  a 
method  he  proposed. 

What  do  you  imagine  to  be  the  reason  of 
there  being  any  standard  at  all  ? — He  thought 
it  proper,  or  else  we  could  not  settle  our  ac- 
counts; we  settle  our  accounts  by  that 
standaiti. 

Don't  you  imagine  that  standard  mi^ht  be 
settled,  Decause  it  was  a  reasonable  size  ta 
make  sheets  of  ?->-€ertainly. 

Do  you  think  that  ought  to  be  departed 
firom  ? — I  find  Mr.  Bell,  the  steward,  who  set- 
tled that  account,  has  varied  from  it  himself; 
for  I  have  a  sheet  in  my  possession,  which* 
has  been  in  the  possession  of  one  of  the  ma- 
trons a  number  of  years,  and  I  find  it  not 
longer  than  those  in  general  made  in  my 
time. 

W^hen  you  find  these  pieces  don't  answer, 
where  would  be  the  great  inconvenience  of 
having  one  sheet  pieced  ?  Or  would  not  that 
be  more  likely  to  keep  the  rest  according  to 
their  standard,  rather  than  to  have  so  many 
cut  short  of  the  standard  ? — ^There  is  no  in- 
convenience, at  least  I  never  heard  of  a  com- 
plaint of  deducting  that  small  quantity,  and 
It  is  an  advantage  to  the  Hospital,  and  there 
would  be  a  loss,  if  we  were  to  make  them  ex- 
actly of  a  length ;  there  would  be  a  loss  of  15 
or  90/.  in  the  clothing,  to  the  Hospital. 

Do  you  imagine  that  it  is  a  benefit  to  the 
Hospital,  that  the  standard  should  be  dimi- 
nished, to  the  inconvenience  of  the  pen* 
sioners? — It  is  neither  an  inconvenience  nor 
a  prejudice  to  the  pensioners,  I  am  clear  of 
that,  and  it  is  a  benefit  to  the  Hospital. 

Then  do  you  imagine  that  the  standard  is 
too  great? — No. 

Then  account  for  why  you  think  it  no  in- 
convenience to  the  pensioners  to  have  the 
sheets  shorter  than  the  standai:d;  and  yet 
you  think  the  standard  not  longer  than  it 
ought  to  be? — If  it  was  less,  and  a  piece  was 
to  run  over  fmrty  yards,  we  should  have  an 
overplus ;  and  we  could  not  then  account  for 
our  cloth  at  all. 

You  have,  I  think,  said,  that  as  fiir  as  the 
ward  extends,  where  captain  Baillie  complains 
of  the  grievance,  vou  never  have  taken  any ' 
measurement  at  aU  ? — In  that  ward,  I  never 
did  as  I  know. 

Have  you  heard,  that  it  was  usual  to  de- 
liver a  pattern  made  up  of  sheets  or  of  shirts, 
answerins  the  description  that  was  laid  down ; 
and  whewer  it  was  or  was  not  a  very  com- 
mon thing  to  deviate  fi*om  that  pattern  shirt 
or  sheet  ? — ^There  is  no  pattern  or  a  shirt  or  a 
sheet,  but  the  standard. 

They  are  all  made  in  the  bouse? — ^Yes; 
they  arc  made  from  my  office. 

You  say  it  would  be  impossible  to  go  through 


IRQ       r«)M0fnigf  the  Rojfol  HospUalat  Grufnach. .       A.  D.  177S« 


esse 


jUjjewtfgicniof  tiie  wbok^  without  hav- 
mg  s{;reat  many  people  umler  you ;  or  do  you 
ailllMk  k  necesBaiy  to  lake  indisoiminately 
it  diftreiit  mrdsy  and  to  try  such  a  numbcor 
in  each  di£brent  vnxdj  to  see  whether  they 
avmredf-^If  you  understand  by  their  bemg 
vade  ui  the  house,  that  they  are  made  withm 
tke  walk  of  the  HoyitaL  they  are  not;  there 
lie  none,  as  I  know,  made  within  the  walls. 

Whether  you,  or  any  of  the  p^ple  under 
VH,  have  any  perquisite  upon  cutting  out  thb 
mn?— I  have  none. 

Nor  the  people  under  you? — ^Nor  the 
Adn;  except  tneir  wives  that  make  them 
so  much  a  riiirt,  and  so  much  a 


Are  there  any  remnants  allowed  to  themf 
—No;  no  such  thing  b  admitted  in  any  re- 

Ihe  maaufiurturers  of  linen  in  general,  I 
believe,  allow  an  over-measure  to  what  they 
let  down ;  now  does  a  piece,  nominally  of  40 
ymkf  measure  no  more  than  40  yards  ? — 1^ 
this  case  it  does  not;  because  we  don't  con- 
Inet  by  the  piece,  but  by  the  yard. 

Bat  the  person  that  contracts  for  this  linen, 
eootracts  by  the  piece  ? — No,  by  the  yard,  at 
voMich  a  yard ;  if  a  piece  contains  37  or  38 
juds,  we  pay  for  no  more  than  97  or  38 
jnds. 

But  apiece  that  b  set  down  to  you  as  40 
fards,  shoold  measure  41  or  42  yards? — In 
Ihis  case  they  charge  to  a  quarter  of  a  yard ; 
tfacy  charge  ar  and  a  quarter,  or  37  and  three- 
fBoten. 

They  always  allow  a  piece ;  a  thumb  as 
they  call  it? — There  is  no  allowance  made; 
the  contract  b  for  so  much  a  yard ;  if  we  con- 
tacted by  the  piece,  then,  in  most  pieces  of 
IbcQ,  tikere  b  an  aUowance  of  three-quartcBS 
oft  yard,  or  a  yard  over;  but  as  we  contract 
hytfae  yaiid,  they  measure  to  half  a  yard,  or  to 
aouarterofayard. 

The  contractor  buys  it  of  the  linen-draper 
b]r  the  piece ;  then,  of  course,  he  should  serve 
m  contract  with  the  pieces  as  he  pays  for 
them;  and  if  he  pays  for  but  40  yards  when 
he  has  41,  he  should  chaige  but  40. — It  has 
•Inayt  been  customary  to  charge  to  half  a 
|iid,  or  a  quarter  of  a  vard. 

Whether  yoii  recollect  your  having  said, 
tiiat  thi^  contracted  by  th^  piece ;  that  some- 
tunes  the  piece  ran  37  and  sometimes  40 
JtA}  My  reason  for  asking  this  question  is, 
to  fix  it  tluit  the  contract  is  made  by  the  piece. 
*-No^itbnot;  and  your  lordship  misunder- 
stood me.  [Mr.  Godby  withdrew.} 

Mr.  Maule  called  in. 

lilQiedier  ftke  ^eets  are  of  the  right  length 
it  nesent? — I  believe  so. 

whatveason  have  yon  to  think  that  they 
y^I  have  known  the  Hospital  a  great 
Mgf  years,  and,  till  very  lately.!  never  heard 
oft  complatnt  at  aU  of  the  kind. 
-  Wbttreaaonhave  you  to  think  that  they 
•BQoiihoitflr  ihaatlvy  wtfrc  formerly ?--4 

VOL  XXI. 


don't  know  that  they  are  shorter  than  they 
were  formerly* 

Did  you  never  hear  a  complaint  of  the  kindf 
—Not  till  very  lately ;  and  though  there  is  an 
establbhed  quantity  for  each  sheet,  it  has  not 
been  the  custom  to  makd  them  so,  if  the 
pieces  of  cloUi  did  not  run-  in  proportion  to 
the  nuinber  that  each  piece  should  make ;  and 
I  believe  that  has  always  been  the  custom^ 
wace  Uie  Hospital  was  first  established. 

vAre  the  pieces  of  linen  not  always  of  the 
tame  length?— They  run  from  37  to  37|,  38 
and  so  on  to  39( ;  .very  seldom  to  40. 

You  seldom  find  any  pieces  of  the  full 
lensth  ? — Very  seldom. 

Do  you  speak  from  your  certain  knowledge, 
that  the  sheets  are  not  now  shorter  than  they 
were  before  ? — ^I  don't  say  that  they  are  at 
present. 

You  say  they  are  not  shorter  now ;  whether 
they  were  not  shorter  before  the  complaint 
was  made  by  captain  Baillie? — ^I  belieire  they 
are  now,  as  they  have  been  made  for  many 
years  past. 

Do  you  speak  firom  your  certain  knowledge 
that  the  sheets  are  now  no  shorter  than  they 
^ere  before  ?«*-!  never  heard  till  very  lately, 
as  I  said  before,  that  the  sheets  were  shdrter 
now  than  they  were  formerly. 

Answer  thai  question  directly ;  do  you  kno^ 
of  your  own  knowledge,  that  the  sneets  aie 
now  of  the  same  lengtn  as  they  were  before^ 
— ^Ail  that  have  come  within  my  knowledge. 

How  many  have  come  within  your  know- 
ledge?— ^A  great  many. 

How  many  ? — ^I  suppose  100  pair  or  more. 

Oil  of  how  many  ?--^me  thousands. 

How  many  thousands  ? — Very  likely  three 
or  four  thousand. 

How  many  hundred  pair,  out  of  these  three 
or  four  thousand,  have  you  measured  ? — I  sup- 
pose an  hundred  pair  I  have  seen  measured. 

And  were  those  equal  to  the  standard? — ^I 
have  alreadv  told  your  lordships,  that  I  never 
knew  that  they  were  to  the  standard. 

What  rule  have  vou  to  go  by  to  say,  that  in 
former  times  the  sneets  were  shorter  than  the 
standard  ?  By  how  much  were  they  shorter  f 
— I  cannot  speak  particularly  to  that;  but  I 
do,  from  my  own  knowledge,  know  that  the 
sheets  were  formerly  made  as  they  are  now, 
and  in  Uie  same  manner,  and  by  the  same, 
people. 

You  say  they  were  shorter,  but  don't  know 
by  how  much;  I  desire  you  will  saytiieii, 
Kow  you  can  possibly  know  that  the  present 
sheets  are  not  shorter  than  those  were? — 1 
said,  at  the  same  time,  that  though  it  was  a 
nominal  thing  that  the  sheets  were  to  consist 
of  five  yards,  yet  I  believe  they  never  were  of 
that  quantity. 

By  now  much  were  they  shorter  ? — I  oannot 
particularly  say. 

If  you  don't  know  by  how  much^hey  were 
shorter,  how  can  you  possibly  mv,  wet  vou 
donH  laiow  that  they  are  now  shorter  uam 
they  were  tl^en*?— 4  n^er  heard  vooeafdaisl* 

Q 


93T] 


18  GEORGE  m.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaUtk^         [fi2S 


That  is  not  the  question;  you  say,  that 
from  your  knowledge,  the  hundred  sheets  you 
measured  were  the  same  length  as  those  be- 
fore; now  you  say,  jrou  don't  know  the  exact 
length  of  those  betbre;  how  then  can  you 
know  that  these  ate  of  the  same  measure  ?— 
I  have  measured  them-  freqiiently  for- 
merty,  when  I  was  a  clerk  in  the  clerk  of  ^e 
cheque's  office ;  and  I  have  seen  them  mea- 
sure since  I  have  been  in  the  present  office, 
and  since  I  have  been  clerk  of  the  cheque 
myself  I  have  often  seen  them  measured,  and 
I  don't  know  that  there  is  any  difference  be- 
tween those  made  formerly  and  those  made 
now.  < 

When  you  measured  the  sheets  formerly, 
of  what  length  were  they? — ^I  believe  short  a 
quarter  of  a  yard;*  I  have  seen  them  so  very 
often. 

You  said  you  measured  them;  you  are  to 
speak  to  a  fact,  not  lipon  belici';  have  you 
taken  any  account  of  now  much,  upon  an 
average,  a  certain  quantity  of  sheets  mea- 
sured r— I  have  not ;  but  it  occurs  to  my  me- 
mory that  they  have  been  a  quarter  of  a  yard 
in  a  sheet  short  formerly. 

Have  you  measured  any  number  of  sheets 
latterly  ? — I  have  seen  a  great  many  measured 
lately. 

Have  you  made  any  computation,  and  cast 
it  into  an  average,  to  see  how  much  they  were 
^ort  ? — ^No ;  wit  I  apprehend  they  were  not 
more  than  that  short ;  none  that  I  have  mea- 
sured have. beea  more  than  that  short. 

Are  the  committee  to  understand  yon^  that 
when  you  say  they  are  not  shorter,  it  is  from  a 

Eeneral  supposition,  and  not  from  any  calcu- 
ition  or  measurement  ? — ^I  have  seen  a  great 
many  measured  lately,  and  seldom  any  of 
them  have  exceeded  that  of  being  a  quarter  of 
a  yard  short. 

Have  you  made  any  computation  upon  any 
number,  to  say  that  such  a  number  produce 
so  much,  and  upon  an  average  they  were  so 
much  shorter  ?— No,  I  have  not. 

Are  the  committee  to  understand  you  that 
you  speak  from  conjecture,  and  not  from 
measurement? — ^I  have  seen  a  great  many 
measured. 

Can  you  speak  to  any  certain  number  that 
you  have  seen  measured,  t^iat  do  all  of  them 
come  within  a  quarter  of  a  yard  exactly,  or 
nearly  ? — No ;  I  have  only  seen  here  or  there 
•ome  measured  when  a  quantity  have  been 
delivered  in. 

Then  do  you  speak  from  your  judgment  of 
the  measurement  of  one,  or  two.  Or  uuree  pair 
of  sheets,  but  not  from  the  measurement  of 
any  large  number  from  whence  you  have  made 
an  average  ?-*No;  I  have  never  measured 
any  larae  nimiber. 

E.  of  Chesterfield,  Whether  the  sheets  are 
long  enough  for  the  beds?-— I  think  they  are. 


•  At 

Ulis 


•re-  four  bmdllis  -in  a  pair  of  ibeets, 
a  dsfioieiiev  of  5.000  vardt  in  lo-ouuiy 
thtkpvpilaL    Orig.EdH. 


Do  you  know  whether  they  are  ornot?^-! 
say,  I  think  they  are. 

In  that  ward  particularly  that  captsin  Bail- 
lie  comphuned  of  ?— No ;  I  speak  ot  the  whole 
house  in  general. 

You  say  the  sheets  are  nominallv  five  yards ; 
have  you  no  pattern  sheet  to  go  oy;  what  is 
the  standard  measure  you  go  by? — ^I  don't 
know  that  there  is  any  pattern  sheet. 

Is  there  no  standard  to  eo  by.^— No;  it  has 
been  looked  upon  to  be  nve  yards;  it  is  a 
mere  nominal  thing  that  they  should  consist 
of  five  yards. 

Do  you  understand  a  standard  rule  is  to  be 
a  mere  nominal  thine,  and  never  to  be  ad- 
hered to? — I  speak,  that  it  has  been  custo- 
marv  in  the  cutting  up  the  cloth. 

The  standard  is  two  yards  and  an  half  long  ^ 
—Yes. 

What  length  are  the  sheets  now  cutting 
up  ?— I  really  don't  know. 

Do  you  lieep  up  to  your  standard  of  two 
yards  and  a  half?  Have  you  measured  them  ? 
— I  have  not. 

Have  you  measured  none  of  them  ?— Not 
very  lately. 

How  lately  since  you  measured  any? — It  la 
a  twelvemonth  ago,  I  believe,  since  I  meap* 
suredany. 

And  are  there  none  at  this  time  making  f — 
Yes,  there  are. 

How  came  you  not  to  measure  them  ?  Is  it 
not  in  your  office  ? — ^I  have  not  been  long  iu 
the  office  that  I  now  enjoy;  the  first  clerk  in 
the  office  that  I  preside  at  has  been  SO  yeara 
in  that  «nploy,  and  I  looked  upon  him  to, be 
a  better  judge  than  I  am,  with  regard  to  all 
them  matters. 

Therefore  you  leave  it  to  your  clerk  to  do 
all  that  business  ?--Only  some  particular  parte 
of  it. 

What  length  were  those  sheets  when  a 
c«)mplaint  was  made  about  them?  Did  you 
measure  them  then  ?— The  sheets  were  not  in 
the  custody  of  any  body,  but  were  delivered 
out;  they  were  in  the  infirmary,  and  as  I  un- 
derstand, the  late  lieutenant-governor  sent  te 
tlie  infirmary  in  an  odd  manner,  and  got  those 
sheets  and  measured  them ;  it  was  not  known 
to  any  of  the  officers  of  the  Hospital  that 
those  sheets  were  measured  at  all. 

What  was  the  measure  of  them  then  ? — ^I 
don*t  know. 

How  much  less  than  the  standard  ?— I  don't 
know  that. 

You  were  not  then  clerk  of  the  cheque,  I 
suppose  ?— I  have  been  a  long  time  at  sea. 

How  long  have  you  been  clerk  of  the 
cheoue  ? — Smce  May,  1776. 

Tnatwas  before  this  complaint,  I  under- 
stand?— Yes. 

As  it  was  in  your  office,  you  certainly  mea- 
sured them  a  year  ago  ? — I  saw  a  g^eat  nuo^ 
ber  of  them  measured  at  the  steward'a  office^ 
thev  were  measured  there. 

What  did  they  measure  a  vearago?  Di4 
they  come  up  Id  thiagtendaTa  of  twe  yai^ 


fiH|}         ntpeaing  Ae  Rm/al  ttotpiul  at  Greemuck.        A.  D.  1778» 


C230 


tnl »  half  in  kogth? — ^I  have  said  heSoie,  I 
kave  found  tbem  to  be  a  Quarter  of  a  yard 
ihoit  of  what  ia  oommoiuy  esiaemed  the. 
sdiidanL 

Uj  questioD  to  you  was  thiSy  what  did  they 
meisuFeayearago?  You  said  you  measured 
them  a  Tear  ago.  .  Did  they  come  up  to  the 
itandara  of  two  yards  and  a  half  lone,  and 
fire  yards  to  the  sheet,  at  that  time?— No ;  I 
have  told  your  lordships  before,  that  several  I 
measured  a  year  ago  were  a  quarter  of  a  yanl 
ihoil,  and  I  believe  that  was  owing  to  the 
shrinking  of  the  linen. 

I  understood  that  you  were  to  measure 
those  sheets  before  they  were  made  up;  we 
have  just  been  told  that  was  the  time  of  mea- 
funngthem,  and  not  afterwards ;  when  did 
you  measure  them  ? — ^Ailer  they  were  return- 
ed made. 
And  washed?—- No. 

Then  how  could  they  shrink  so  much  ? — ^It 
was  after  they  wer^  brought  home  made,  and 
not  washed. 

And  then  they  were  a  quarter  of  a  yard 
short? — ^I  observed  several  of  them  a  quarter 
of  a  yard  short,  as  I  mentioned  to  your  lord- 
ahqis  before. 

And  did  not  you  try  to  redress  this  because 
it  came  into  your  own  office? — ^No;  it  has 
been  the  practice  of  the  Hospital^  as  far  as  I 
can  remember,  and  ever  heard,  with  re^ird  to 
the  Quantity  of  linen  that  each  piece  contain- 
ed, that  the  sheets  were  calculated  so  as  to 
cause  the  shortness  now  complained  of 

Whether  you  have  anv  reason  to  believe 
that  the  measurement  that  Mr.  Field  made 
was  not  a  fair  measurement  ? — I  believe  a  hit 

[Mr.  Maule  withdrew.] 


one. 


Captun  BaiUie  called  in  again. 


Whether  you  ndade  any  complaint  at  any 
time  of  the  situation  of  the  tailors'  shop  being 
such,  as  to  be  likely  to  occasion  fire  in  Green- 
inch  Hospital? — ^Ab6ut  last  January  was 
twelve  months,  there  was  a  proposal  from  a 
tailor  to  take  the  Hospital  contract,  upon 
some  information  he  had  received  tnat  the 
contractor  was  in  a  bad  state  of  health,  and 
wished  to  decline;  there  was  a  circular  letter 
sent,  I  believe,  to  all  the  directors  of  the  Hos- 
pital upon  that  occasion ;  amongst  the  rest  I 
Lad  one,  and  some  time  after  that  a  public  letr 
tcr  appeared  at  the  board  from  a  contracting 
lulor,  making  a  tender  to  the  board  in  conse- 
mience  of  the  information  he  had  received  of 
toe  ill  state  of  health  of  the  former  contractor ; 
the  matter  was  then  only  talked  of  at  the 
hoai^  of  directors^  for  the  former  contractor 
bad  no  intention  it  seemed  to  resign.  I  gave 
my  opinion  to  the  board  of  directors,  that 
tbere  was  danger  of  fire  from  the  tailors'  shop 
in  the  Hospit^,  where  I  thought  there  was  a 
scene  of  orunkenness  and  mssipation ;  the 
taiknrs  were  permitted  to  sell  drams,  and  they 
kept  a  kind  of  suttling-house  in  the  Hospital ; 
I  peinted  out  the  danger  of  fire,  and  when  the 
aunmittee  joat  in  A«  Hospital  to  enquire  into 


the  g^pounds  of  the  several  charges,  they  paid 
not  the  least  attention  to  that  matter,  no  more 
than  they  did  to  many  o^ers. 

Whether  you  gave  information  to  any  set 
of  men,  that  there  was  danger  of  fire  from  the. 
practice  of  the  tailors  in  the  Hospital? — ^I 
mentioned  it  when  the  contractor  made  pro- 
posals ;  I  objected  then ;  I  said  I  thoueht  it 
an  improper  place  for  the  tailors  to  work  in ; 
that  tnere  was  danger  firom  fire,  saving,  it 
would  be  a  shore  eiigibte  mode  to  buy  the 
clothes  ready  made,  and  to  serve  them  out  as 
pursers  do  in  his  majesty's  ships. 

Did  vou  object  to  the  tailors  working  in  tha 
place  they  work  in  ? — I  did. 

You  represented  that  there  was  danger  of  firo 
from  the  tailors  working  where  they  did  by 
candle  light? — I  did,  to  Uie  board  of  atrectors, 
and  pointed  it  out  afterwards  in  my  com- 
plaint. 

Do  vou  know  any  thing  of  the  fire  that 
lately  happened  in  Greenwich  Hospital? — I 
knew  nothing  of  it  till  the  morning  I  was 
ffoing  to  London ;  at  eight  o'clock  I  heard 
uiere  was  a  fire  in  Greenwich  Hospital. 

Is  there  any  person  here  that  can  ^ve  an 
account  where  that  fire  began? — I  should 
think  it  the  dutv  of  the  captain  and  lieutenant 
of  the  week  to  know  something  about  it. 

Who  were  the  captain  and  lieutenant  of  the 
week? — ^I  was  out  of  office  ^en;  I  have 
heard  that  lieutenant  Kerr  was  lieutenant  of 
the  week. 

Why  do  you  think  that  place  particularly 
improper  for  the  tailors  to  have  worked  in  ? — 
Because  it  is  a  great  way  from  the  officers  to 
visit  that  wud,  and  it  incumbered  the  Hospi* 
tal  very  much,  and  took  up  the  place  of  a 
great  number  of  pen»onav;  I  thought  it 
would  be  better  applied  in  havine  cabms  for 
pensioners ;  that  ward  is  not  under  the  care 
of  the  officers ;  the  steward  has  the  direction 
and  management  of  the  tailors'  shop,  and  it  is 
scarcely  ever  visited  by  the  officers  of  the 
Hospital ;  your  lordships  will  find  it  was  inune- 
diately  over  the  chapel. 

Was  your  objection  to  the  danger  of  fire, 
because  the  tailors  were  not  under  the  inspec- 
tion of  the  officers  ?— That  ward  was  always 
locked  up  at  night ;  if  the  officers  or  guard  so 
their  liimds  there,  they  can't  get  in ;  it  is  lock- 
ed up,  and  the  key  is  under  the  care  of  the 
stewanl  and  tailor,  and  these  people. 

I  understood  you  objected  to  it,  because  tha 
tailors  sold  drams,  and  kept  a  kind  of  suttling- 
house? — ^I  did  not  object  to  it  particular^ 
upon  that  account,  because  till  after  the  mk 
I  did  not  know  tlwt  circumstance;  it  came 
out  then. 

What  was  the  reason  of  your  objecting  to  it 
at  that  time  ? — It  ^as  when  the  contracting 
tailor  made  an  offer- 
Why  did  you  think  it  likely  that  fire  should 
take  place  there? — Because  it  was  never  visit- 
ed at  nights  by  the  euard  of  the  Hospital;  tha 
patrole  never  viaiteo  it;  they  never  oonAi  get 
mto  that  ward* 


«S1] 


18  GBOttGfe  III.  The  Que  ofCapkm  TkMfat  BMUy 


Do  you  apprehend  the  fiit  begin  in  the;te« 
lore' room? — I  have  every  reason  to  believe 
86,  from  what  has  transpired  in  the  Hospital. 

Have  you  seen  any  of  the  examinations  that 
were  taken  before  sir  John  Fielding  ? — ^I  never 
saw  any  of  the  examinations;  but  I  have 
great  reason  to  believe  that  neither  the  cap- 
tain nor  lieutenant  of  the  week  were  called 
upon  on  that  occasion ;  it  seemed  to  me  to  be 
rather  a  partial  enquiiy. 

It  was  upon  oath,  therefore  what  reason 
to\AA  you  have  for  thinking  so  ? — ^I  did  not 
hear  that  any  body  was  examined  upon  oath ; 
I  was  outof  office,  and  I  was  not  calred  upon ; 
the  captain  and  lieutenant  of  the  week  were 
ihe  proper  officers ;  the  House  vrill  hear  whe- 
ther all  the.  commissioned  officers  were  exa^ 
mined  or  not. 

'  Is  that  the  only  reason  you  have  for  think- 
ing it  a  partial  enquiiy,  that  you  have  not 
heard  thev  were  examined  upon  oath  ? — ^I  did 
not  hear  that  the  commissioned  officers,  whose 
duty  it  was  to  know  something  about  it,  were 
all  examined. 

Was  that  the  duly  reason  for  your  thinking 
it  a  partial  enquify? — ^I  don't  Know  of  any 
ether  reason.        [Captain  Bailtie  wiUidrew.J 

Lieutenant  Kerr  called  in. 

Inform  the  committee  of  v^at  you  know 
respecting  the  fire  that  happened  m  Green- 
wich Hospital.  Do  you  know  where  it  began } 
— ^Upon  my  word  I  am  incapable  to  tell  where 
H  began.  In  the  morning,  about  a  quarter 
before  five^  when  I  happened  to  be  m  bed 
With  my  wifo,  and  the  Koyal  Charlotte  ward 
is  directiy  over  me,  which  has  a  passage  down 
from  where  the  fire  began,  or  near  to  it,  I 
heard  people  running  backumd  and  forward ; 
I  thought  it  had  been  the  boys  running,  as 
usual,  at  six  in  the  morning  to  go  to  school ; 
soon  afler  I  heard  that  the  tailors'*  shop  was 
on  fire ;  I  jumped  out  of  bed,  put  on  my  clothes, 
and  went  up  to  the  place,  where  I  fomid  a 
^reat  deal  of  smoke  m  the  Duke  of  York's 
ward;  they  told  me  there,  tiiat  the  tailord* 
shop  was  on  fire;  I  went  up  close  to  it,  and 
found  a  prodigious  deal  of  smoke ;  I  was  ask- 
ed by  one  of  them  if  I  had  an  hatchet;  I  ran 
down  and  brought  up  a  broad  axe  to  break  the 
door;  I  gave  it  to  a  man,  and  then  ran  to  eet 
open  the  two  great  reservoirs  of  water,  and  I 
ordered  the  water  to  be  thrown  on  the  floor, 
hoping  it  was  an  accidental  local  fire  in  the 
vrutl:  in  about  ten  minutes  after  I  found 
they  had  broke  open  a  place  on  the  lefl  side 
of  the  steps  goins  up  to  the  tidlors'  shop;  I 
looked  down,  anasaw  a  small  fire,  not  blazing 
up,  but  as  if  it  had  been  continued  for  some 
time.  They  broke  open  the  door.  The  boy 
and  the  man  gave  their  evidence  to  sir  John 
Fielding;  how  they  ^ve  their  evidence,  God 
onlv  knows;  they  said — 

The  committee  donH  want  to  know  what 
fhey  said.  What  did  you  see?— What  I  saw 
iiras  only  that  there  was  a  fire  at  the  left  side 
of  the  steps  a  going  up;  when  it  broke 


p 


tfcx<liigh.we  could  not  getat  the#irt^;  Ipff^ 
the  clerk  of  ^e  chequers  clerk  the  a^  to  eut 
open  the  doors  to  get  at  the  reservoir^  of 
water ;  I  went  to  the  King's,  the  uppermost 
ward:  then  I  went  down  to  the  Townsend; 
and  then  to  the  Prince  of  Wales's  ward:  cap- 
tain AUwright  went  with  me  to  see  if  t})m 
was  any  fire  in  the  nurses'  ward,  or  in  the 
anartments  Ihat  were  under  these  apartments  ; 
tnere  vras  none ;  I  put  my  cheek  to  the  side 
of  the  place,  and  said,  here  is  the  fire,  I  fed 
the  heat  strike  to  met  I  ran  up  again  to  the 
wards  above  me  and  found  the  fire.  To  the 
best  of  my  knowled^,  and  the  jndgmetit  I 
can  ^ve  of  the  afian*,  it  was  in  the  taHorsP 
shop  that  the  fire  began. 

Were  you  the  officer  of  the  mttk  ?— Yes. 

To  what  extent  did  this  fire  go  ?— To  a  Very 
unfortunate  extent  indeed ;  beyond  the  expec- 
tation of  mankind ;  beyond  what  any  man  ac- 
quainted with  Greenwich  Hospital  ever  could 
conceive.  • 

How  many  pensioners  were  burnt  out?— I 
believe  not  above  SOO,  or  about  890  or  390 ;  I 
cant  ascertain  the  exact  number ;  but  I  don't 
brieve  more  thantluit 

Have  you  any  guess  of  the  extent  of  the  da» 
mage,  to  what  amount  it  will  reauire  to  rfptir 
it? — I  am  no  judge  of  anv  such  thing. 

Was  there  a  great  deal  of  furniture  lost?*^ 
I  don't  know  ^mat  fiimiture  might  be  lost  bj 
the  indiscretion  of  the  people  mo  were  tent 
fifom  the  different  yards;  more  damage  was 
done  than  what  the  fire  did ;  if  they  would 
have  taken  advice,  there  would  not  have  beea 
so  much  damage  aone ;  many  wards  #ere  ia^ 
m^d  that  were  not  damaged  by  th^fire. 

vv  hether  you  did  ever  apprehend,  or  declare 
your  apprehensions  of  a  rear  of  fire  in  that 
particular  part  where  the  iixt  happened,  before 
it  did  happen  ?— There  was  a  man  brought  U> 
the  councu;  I  bdng  lieutenant  of  th^  wedt, 
our  nurses  compkined  to  me  that  a  man  had 
a  candle  in  his  cabin;   when  I  cametoefi* 

r\  into  it,  I  found  the  man  Was  guli|^  ^ 
fault ;  he  had  no  ridxt,  at  any  time,  te 
have  a  candle  in  his  cabin;  the  nurse  took 
the  candle  out,  and  he  struck  her;  the  malt 
made  frivolous  excuses  to  me ;  I  insisted  upon 
it  that  it  should  be  brought  to  coundlt  I  sent 
down  to  captain  Chads,  who  was  the  captm 
of  the  week,  and  bid  him  put  it  upon  the  list 
of  the  complaints ;  I  said  I  woula  never  fofw 
give  a  candle's  being  in  a  cabin  at  an  unusual 
time ;  the  man  came,  and  asked  me  to  fox^gfv# 
it ;  I  sud  if  I  did,  I  hoped  God  would  never 
forgive  me ;  it  was  brought  to  council,  and  he 
was  punished;  I  wislied  him  to  have  had 
three  months,  or  two  months  at  least,  but  he 
had  only  a  month's  punishment;  I  begged 
the  council  would  give  orders  to  ^e  boat- 
swains to  prevent  the  irregularity  of  the  pen- 
sioners havine  li^ts  in  their  cabins;  lor  if 
any  accident  happened,  I  was  afraid  H  would 
be  from  the  tXnce  of  York's  ward^  for  they 
were  irregular,  drunken,  turbulent,  trouble*' 
somepeo^;  and  this  was  aH  I  did  say ;  bot 


iHS]        rapeeliHg  tke  Roy^  Hospittl  at  Onandch.        AttkVnB, 


ISM 


vWi  M  fiirllMf  nteiitiony  WiAilig  the  coon* 
ai  would  ooDciir  with  what  I  bad  said. 

If  I  imderstood  yon  right,  you  tmd  that  be- 
fcre  tlie  fire  happened,  you  wete  apprehensiTe 
that  that  was  a  likely  part  for  a  fira  to  ha^n 
m;  andTouhadiDadeaeompkunt;  twisnto 
fellow  that  question  a  Ultie  fiirther:  who 
were  the  persons  jwl  idade  the  eomplaint  tof 
^t  was  in  councd  I  made  the  complaifit 

Who  composed  that  council? — Hwas  the 
conunoD  council  of  the  Hospital ;  I  heliere 
tiie  fieutenant-gorefnor  and  captain  Lynn 
were  there,  and  several  captains ;  I  cannot  as- 
eertain  iramedtately  that ;  hut  all  my  mean- 
iitt  was  no  more  than  wishing  tiie  concurrence 
ifme  council  to  support  me  in  my  duty  as  a 
faeatenanty  having  a  (arge  and  extensive  dtvi- 
^bn  under  my  care,  that  they  would  give  an 
order,  which  would  be  more  circumstantial 
than  :aine,  as  an  individual  officer ;  I  netther 
mesit^  nor  thought,  nor  ^hed  no  other. 

Whether  you  were  apprehensive  that  a  fire 
m^t  happen  in  that  place,  and  made  your 
eomphdnt  to  the  council?  You  named  the 
Keutenant-govemor  as  one  of  th&t  couiKil; 
#13  the  apprehension  of  the  fear  of  fire  in  that 
^bce  su^ested  by  you  to  the  lieutenanVgo- 
vemor  orby  the  lieutenant-governor  to  you? 
—I  meant  it  in  j^eneral,  that  I  would  wish  to 
br  sujmortedy  as  I  had  given  orders  that  there 
should  be  no  Hghts ;  1  meant  no  other,  tlmn 
tbatmy  orders  should  be  enforced. 

Were  yon  ever  examined  by  ^  John  Field- 
ing?—I  was. 

TOO  said,  that  there  were  about  900  pen- 
sioners burnt  out ;  how  long  was  it  before 
there  were  lodg^gs  for  them  again  ?— >I  be- 
fieve  if  the  men  would  have  come  in,  if  they 
bad  not  availed  themselves  of  wishing  to  lie 
out,  they  might  have  been  accommodated  the 
veiy  ni^t  the  fire  was :  I  believe  I  could  have 
accommodated  them  myself,  if  I  had  been  left 
to  do  it;  and  I  believe  every  officer  in  the 
Hospital,  to  tbe  utmost  of  their  power,  took 
every  method  to  accommodate  them. 

You  were  examined,  you  say,  before  sir  John 
Fielding  ?— Yes. 

Did  It  appear,  upon  that  exammation,  tibat 
the  fire  broKe  out  first  in  the  toem  where  the 
tailors  were? — I  cui  only  answer  for  what  I  said 
njself;  I  was  jaot  present;  I  believe  it  waa 
very  evident  to  every  body,  to  the  best  of  my 
knowledge,  tfaat  it  fcffoke  out  there,  and  there 
ody. 

^  Who  was  the  lieutenant-governor  at  the 
time  yon  mentioned  to  the  council  your  appre- 
henaions  of  fiie? — Lietitenant^vemor  Ma- 
pieaden.  [Lieutenant  Kerr  withdrew.] 

lieutenant  Smith  called  in. 

^  Were  you  at  Greenwich  Hospital  at  the 
fitne  the  fife  i>egan?— «I  was  not;  I  was  in 
town. 

Bow  soon  were  you  at  the  Hospieal  ?— I 
bc&nre  about  noon ;  the  damage  was  mostly 
*^  by  the  time  I  came. 

wre  yoa  «Dy  jeascm  to  kftow  yfhett  the 


fife  began  f—Aa  to  formhig  aay  fto«iOD  wtoB 
it  beean,  I  cert^My  could  not;  llMǤ^  I  ditf ' 
s^(l  donl  knowiyheth«r  I  havi  aftr  fouA^ 
tion  for  it  ornot>tlia«I  iraaginM  H  broke  dot 
at  the  vestry. 

[lieutenant  Smith  withdrew.] 


3\f eadsy,  April  90. 
Captain  B<ulUe  called  io. 

Whether  you  know  any  thing  of  tlie  method 
in  which  the  linen  is  eut  out  id  Greenwicll' 
Hospital ?— Do  yott  apeak  of  sheets  or  ahirts? 

The  sheeti^e. — ^A  piece  of  sheeting  is  g^ne* 
rally  cut  into  nxteen  lengths^  to  make  ^n 
sheets ;  each  length  ought  to  connst  of  ^vo 
yards  and  an  half;  a  piece  of  Russia  sheeting 

gsdetally  contains  thirty-seven  ywds  and  an 
alf ;  tint  beinr  cut  kite  sixteen  lengths, 
dues  not  run  to  we  standard  of  the  Hospitid  ; 
instead  of  sixteen  lengths,  it  ought  to  be  cut 
into  fifteen  only ;  by  which  means  two  pieces 
will  make  fifteen  sheets ;  and  by  cutting  fbtir 
pieces  in  that  manner,  they  will  makt  exactly 
fifteen  pair  of  sheets ;  instead  of  which  the 
praetiee  is,  to  cut  four  pieces  into  sixteen  pur 
of  sheets,  by  wtiieh  means  there  is  a  pair  of 
sheets  more  ttum  there  ought  to  be  oy  tho 
establishment.  It  has  l&ewise  bOen  the 
practice  of  the  butcher's  servant  to  reduce 
each  man's  potmd  of  meat  to  fourteen  ounces, 
for  whkh  he  was  transported. 

Whether  the  pieces  of  Ikien  in  genera!  nah' 
thirty-s6ven  yards  atid  an  half  ?— -Thev  are 
bougnt  for  thirty  ells,  that  is  exactly  thir^-' 
seven  yards  and  an  half;  and  if  you  search 
Cheapside,  from  one  end  to  the  other,  I  be* 
lieve  It  vrill  be  fbimd  to  be  the  length. 

With  regard  to  the  men's  shirts,  whether 
they  have  been  delivered  according  to  the 
standard? — I  believe  not.  Three  yards  and 
an  half  is  the  standard  lor  every  shirt  in 
Greenwich  Hospital.  Throughout  the  Ho»« 
pital,  I  will  venture  to  say,  they  run  but  about 
three  yards  and  a  quarter;  for  the  larse  men 
they  genentiy  aJkw  three  yards  anl  three 
quarters.  There  is  a  gentleman  I  have  seen 
here  to-day,  who  is  a  draper,  he  can  tell  the 
exact  lengui  of  the  pieces. 

What  IS  hia  Aame  ?->Hi8  name  is  Price ;  I 
do  not  know  hi^  Christian  name,  for  I  never* 
saw  him  before.    [Csqptun  Baillie  wHhdrOw.] 

The  duke  of  Richmond  then  moved.  That 
the  House  be  resumed ;  and  a  short  debate 
ensued  upon  the  propriety  of  Mr.  Price  eiving 
evidence,  as  he  had  not  been  summoned. 

Resolved,  That  Mr.  Price  inight  be  ad* 
mitted  to  give  evidence.  Mr.  Price  was  ^hero- 
fore  called,  and  sworn  at  the  bar.  TheQouae 
being  again  resolved  into  a  committee. 

What  is  vour  name  ? — Edward  Price. 
Where  do  you  live } — ^I  live  m  iMadttiOOr^ 
street,  Clare-market 
Are  you  a  linen-draper  ?--^l  am. 
Do  you  deal  m  Russia  linen  ?-^I  do. 


9SS] 


ISO^KGB  m.         The  OueofCaptm  Thomas BaiOie,         [236 


What  kngth  are  J^o^  of  Russia  sheeting, 
upon'  an  avenge  ?— The  fabric  is  thirty  ells, 
or  thirty-seven  yards  and  an  half  each  piece, 
seldom  more  or  less.     [Mr.  Price  withorew.] 

Capt  Baillie  called  in  again. 

Whether  there  were  any  proceedinffs  amnst 
you,  in  Westminster-hall,  tor  a  libel  ? — There 
were  six  informations  moved  against  me,  in 
the  court  of  King's-bench,  for  the  Memorial  I 
drew  up  of  the  state  of  Greenwich  Hospital; 
it  was  m  the  name  of  the  directors  and  others 
of  Greenwich  Hospital. 

What  were  the  names  in  which  the  infor- 
mations were  brought?— rin  the  name  of  Mr. 
Hicks,  the  sixpenny  receiver ;  Mr.  Stuart,  the 
surveyor  of  the  Hospital ;  and  the  rev.  Mr. 
Cooke,  as  directors.  After  that,  my  lords, 
they  were  consolidated  into  one  or  more  in- 
formations ;  and  there  was  the  secretaiy,  Mr. 
Ibbet^n;  the  clerk  of  the  works,  Mr.  Mylne: 
Mr.  Stuart,  the  surveyor  of  the  Hospital ;  and 
Mr.  Godby,  the  steward;  in  theu*  separate 
capacities.  i 

Do  you  mean  actions  or  informations? — 
Actions.  They  moved  for  rules^  in  the  King's- 
bench,  to  shew  cause  why  an  mformation  or 
informations  should  not  be  granted  against 
me  for  a  libel. 

Is  your  solicitor  here  ? — "So, 

Do  you  mean  motions  for  informations  or 
actions  ? — ^Motions  for  informations ;  it  is  my 
want  of  knowledge  of  the  technical  terms  of 
the  law  made  me  express  myself  so. 

Do  you  expect  vour  attorney  here  to-day  ? 
—He  has  attendea  constantly  till  to-day. 

Who  carried  on  the  business  on  the  other 
side  ? — ^The  solicitor  of  Greenwich  Hospital, 
Mf.  Everest        [Captain  Baillie  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Eoertft  called  in. 

I  beg  to  know  whether  you  carried  on  any 
prosecution  iwainst  Mr.  Baillie,  in  Westmin- 
ster-hall i—xes. 

Of  what  nature;  and  at  whose  suit? — I 
was  employed  by  several  individiuds  at  the 
Hospital  to  prosecute  captain  Baillie  for  a 
libel;  they  were,  Mr.  HicKS,  Mr.  Stuart,  Mr. 
Ibbetson,  Mr.  Mvlne,  and  Mr.  Godby,  on 
their  separate  and  private .  accounts :  it  was 
some  time  before  I  received  any- farther  or- 
deiB;  I  think^  at  last,  the  comimltee  of  en- 
quiry on  captam  Baillie's  book,  called  me  in, 
and  I  received  orders  from  the  directors  to 
take  the  necessary  steps,  on  their  part,  to  pro- 
secute captain  Qaillie. 

When  you  were  called  in  by  this  commit- 
tee^ did  they  direct  you  to  prosecute  captain 
Baillie  in  their  name,  as  a  committee,  or  as  a 
court  of  directors,  or  a  seneral  court? — I  un- 
derstood I  was  to  take  the  necessaiy  steps  on 
the  part  of  the  directors;  the  necessary  affi- 
davits were  prepared,  and  the  rule  made,  to 
shew  cause  why  informations  should  not  be 
filed. 

In  the  name  of  any  person,  individuaUy,  or 
by  the  court  of  directors?—-!  first  received 


orders  firom  individuals,  and  then  at  the  com-- 
mittee  of  enquiry. 

When  you  did  move  to  shew  cause^  did  you 
do  it  in  the  name  of  any  person,  individually, 
or  on  the  part  of  the  board  or  directors? — 
One  in  the  name  of  the  court  of  directors; 
the  others  on  the  part  of  the  individuals  I 
have  mentioned.  The  rule  was,  why  an  in- 
formation or  informations  should  not  be  filed ;. 
I  believe  an  information  only  was  intended  to 
be  supported. 

At  whose  expence  was  that  carried  on  ? — 
The  expence  has  not  been  paid ;  captain  Bail- 
lie's  expences  have  been  paid  out  of  the 
pocket  of  Mr.  Stuart,  Mr.  Hicks,  Mr.  Godby, 
and  Mr.  Cooke,  &c. 

Your  part  of  the  business,  at  whose  ez- 

rmce  was  that  carried  on  ? — ^I  conceive  that 
am  to  be  paid  by  the  individuals  that'  em^ 
ployed  me. 

Was  there  any  thine  about  who  was  to  pay 
it  ? — I  wrote  to  the  ooard  of  directors,  the 
17th  of  October.  I  think  it  was.  I  was  called 
upon,  and  askea  if  I  looked  to  the  Hospital 
for  payment;  I  was  told  I  was  not  to  look  to 
the  Hospital  for  payment,  but  to  the  indivi- 
duals that  employed  me. 

[Mr.  Everest  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Lefevre  called  in. 

I  be^  he  may  be  asked,  whether  he  knows 
any  thins  of  prosecutions  carried  on  against 
Mr.  Bulfie,  or  any  steps  taken  to  engage  per- 
sons to  carry  on  those  prosecutions?-— I  will 
begin,  if  your  lordships  please,  and  relate  the 
whole.  About  the  8th  or  9th  of  January.  I 
was  in  company  with  the  Rev.  Mr.  Cooke, 
who  read  to  me  a  part  of  a  letter  he  said  he 
had  received  firom  the  steward  of  the  Hos- 
pital, the  contents  were.  That  the  contracting 
Dutchers  were  cast  for  the  sevcaral  frauds  they 
had  been  accused  of  at  Guildhall ;  and  after 
the  tiial  was  over,  the  said  steward,  and  the 
rest  of  his  friends,  which  I  suppose  were  the 
landmen,  enjoyed  themselves  with  a  very 
good  dinner,  and  a  bottle  of  good  wine,  while 
Sie  lieutenant  governor  and  ms  party  sneaked 
ofi*  like  a  parcel  of  dirty  dogs. 

Here  a  short  conversation  took  place,  whe- 
ther the  witness  should  he  permitted  to  pro- 
ceed in  his  narrative,  or  answer  to  such  ques- 
tions as  might  be  propounded.  Agreed,  that 
he  should  confine  himself  to  answers  only. 
Witness  called  in. 

I  desire  Mr.  Lefevre  will  answer  what  he 
knows  relating  to  steps  taken  to  induce  per- 
sons to  bring  about  these  prosecutions  against 
captain  BaiSie? — ^As  to  what  could  induce 
them,  it  is  impossible  for  me  to  say. 

If  Mr.  Lefevre  will  be  so  sood  as  to  answer 
what  stejjs  he  is  acquainted  with  which  werr 
taken  to  induce  any  gentlemen  to  prosecute 
captain  Baillie  ? — ^I  should  suppose  tney  did  it 
merelv  fi^m  dislike  to  captain  BulUe. 

Had  you  any  conversations  with  Mr.  Codke^ 
relative  to  any  prosecutions  against  captain 


'fSr)         ftipeeimg  ike  Ro^  HoipUd  Mi  Gremmf^         A.D.177& 


[898 


BttUie? — ^IwasgQD^  to  that;  I  was  going 
to  mentMMi  it  as  it  wib  told  me  by  the  Rev. 
Mr.  CodDe ;  I  was  going  to  relate  from  the 
bemmine  of  Mr.  Cooke's  discourse  to  the  end. 
The  ouy  thing  wanted  is^  that  you  will  re- 
late that  Dart  that  concerns  an  attemfyt  to  in- 
duce anybody  to  prosecute  caotain  Baillie? — 
I  ^BOoUect,  alter  captain  Baillie's  book  came 
out,  Mr.  Cooke  informed  me,  that  lord  Sand- 
wich had  said,  that  any  person  that  should  be 
seen  to  keep  company  with  captain  Baillie, 
should  have  a  stop  put  to  his  preferment  for 
cver. 

[Mr.  Lefevre  interrupted  by  several  noble 
loras,  and  ordered  to  withdraw.3    . 

While  the  witness,  Mr.  Lefevre,  was  giving 
his  testimony,  Ibrd  Denbigh,  who  at  just 
within  the  biur,  near  the  witness,  aaid,  in  a  low 
voice,  two  or  three  times  to  hini^  that  he 
ahouhl  confoie  himself  to  the  question;  if  he 
did  not,  be  must  interrupt  him.  The  witness 
not  attending  immediately  to  what  his  lord- 
ship said,  he  rose  to  olyect  to  receiving  any 
kind  of  evidence,  but  what  contained  an  an- 
swer to  the  question  put  by  the  House. 

The  Duke  of  Riekmond  rose  to  complain  of 
the  veiy  disorderly  conduct  of  the  noble  lord, 
who  went  down  to  the  bar,  and  endeavoured 
to  intimidate  a  witness  delivering  his  testi- 
mony upon  oath. 

The  Earl  of  Denbigh  acknowledged,  that 
he  told  the  witness  that  he  would  mtemipt 
him.  if  he  deviated  from  the  question. 

The  Duke  of  Richmond  replied,  that  it  was 
lughly  improper  and  indecent,  to  offer  to  di- 
rect a  witness,  and  intimidate  him,  by  holding 
a  private  conversation  with  him;  tiiat  no 
noble  lord  had  a  right  to  put  a  question,  as  an 
individual,  to  an^  person  under  examination 
at  the  bar ;  and^  if  the  noble  lord  did  not  de- 
sist, and  immediately  retract,  he  would,  for 
the  honour  of  the  House,  and  the  order  and 
decency  of  their  lordships'  proceedings,  fiame 
a  question,  and  t^e  the  sense  of  the  House 
upon  it. 

After  a  warm  altercation  between  the  two 
noble  lords,  and  sevend  direct  contradictions, 
in  which  the  duke  of  Richmond  affirmed  po- 
sitively, that  the  noble  lord  had  endeavoured 
to  intimidate  the  witness ;  and  from,  what  he 
said  in  his  defence,  had  conferaed  the  dis- 
oideriy  conduct  imputed  to  him. 

The  Lord  Chancellor  rose,  and  said  it  was 
very  true,  that  every  question .  should  come 
through  the  medium  or  the  chair ;  that  that 
form  was,  however,  irequentlv  dispensed  with, 
for  the  sreater  dispatch  of  business ;  but  if 
the  noble  duke  insisted  upon  adhering  to 
strict  order,  he  was  certainly  rieht. 

The  Earl  of  Denbigh  said,  that  was  what 
he  meant  to  do ;  that  it  was  permitted  every 
dav ;  and  that  so  for .  from  mtimichiting,  be 
oiuy  wished  to  wevent  trouble. 

The  Duke  ofuiekmond  replied,  the  question 
staled  by  the  noble  and  learned  lord,  and  the 
JBoUecm  who  spoke  last,  was  veiy  difierent 


to  Ae  species  of  disorder  he  complained  of 
When  a  noble  lord  propounds  a  question,  in 
the  manner  described,  he  did  it  openlv,  and 
with  an  audible  voice,  so  that  every  kud  pre- 
sent misht  hear  it  It  was  never  therefore 
imaeineo,  that  because  the  question  was  <h- 
rectJy  answered  from  the  bar,  that,  dispensing 
with  the  riffht  orders  of  the  House,  in  not  in- 
sisting to  nave  the  question  agiin  repeated 
from  the  chair,  or  the  wooludc,  left  any 
noble  lord  at  liberty  to  go  down  to  the  Imr,  to 
hold  a  private  conversation  with  a  witness,  in 
order  to  intimidate  him. 

The  Earl  of  fhaterfield  said,  that  the  pre^ 
sent  beinft  an  enquiry  into  the  conduct  of  the 
noble  ford,  whose  name  was  mentioned  hav- 
ing made  use  of  such  an  expression,  that 
hearsay  was  no  evidence,  and  that  conse- 
•quently  it  was  inadmissible,  and  the  witness 
ought  to  be  restrained  from  mentioning  lord 
Sandwich's  name. 

Here  a  very  warm  debate  commenced  on 
two  grounds.  First,  whether  the  present  en- 
quiry could  be  properly  considered  as  an  en- 
(miry  into  the  conduct  of  loid  Saiidwich ;  and 
if  it  coqfd,  whether  hearsay  evidence  of  what 
the  witness  heard  Cooke  say  that  loid  Smd- 
wich  told  him,  was  admissible  evidence  in  a 
court  of  justice. 

The  first  of  those  questions  was  debated  for 
upwards  of  an  hour.  The  affirmative  was 
contended  for  by  the  Lord  Chancellor,  and 
the  lords  ManAeld,  Bathurst,  Chesterfield, 
and  Dudley;  the  negative,  by  the  duke  of 
Richmond  and  lord  Cunden,  mixed  with  their 
question  of  fact  and  the  general  supposed 
understanding  or  the  House,  the  question  of 
the  law  forced  itself  into  discussion.  At 
length  iord  Mansfield  framed  a  question,  m 
order,  he  said,  to  take  the  sense  ot  the  House 
to  the  following  effect : 

'^That  it  be  resolved,  that  the  name  of 
John  earl  Sandwich  be  not  mentioned  by  the 
witness  at  the  bar,  in  his  eyidence  of  a  con- 
versation with  any  other  person,  of  what  the 
said  person  informed  him  that  the  said  earl 
had  said.''  To  which  the  duke  of  Richmond 
moved  an  amendment,  by  adding  the  words, 
^  in  order  to  intimidate  said  witness.'' 

As  soon  as  this  motion  was  handed  to  the 
,  table,  a  new  and  most  important  d^te  re- 
commenced. 

The  Earl  of  Mantfield  contended,  that  it 
was  repugnant  to  every  principle  of  law,  to 
.admit  evidence  upon  hearsay,  which,  in  its 
consequences,  might  affect  a  third  person; 
that  certainly,  though  he  did  not  consider  the 
present  enquiry  to  be  specifically  directed 
agaiast  lord  Suidwich,  yet  only  considering, 
him  as  one  person  charged  among  many 
others,  it  was  well  known  uiat  in  proceed!^ 
upon  indictments,  where  several  persons 
were  included  in  it,  no  evidence  of  a  criminal 
act  of  any  one  of  the  parties  was  ever  received 
as  evidence  against  another.  Lord  Sandwich 
and  Mr.  Cooke  stood  in  exactiy  the  same 
predicament  of  persons  so  indicted, 


li^] 


18  GEOBGE  ni.  The  Casi  f^Ca^am  Thmfu  B^iUie^         [8M 


^uently  tiolhmje  th^t  Cooke  SBid  ougbt  to  be 
ndnuUjBd  «9  evflkioce  spiostlord  Sandwich* 

tmd  Camden  ackoowledgod  the  pnacifKle 
laid  down  by  the  letmied  lora;  but  taking  vp 
the  matter  upon  the  noble  lord's  own  ground, 
allowing  that  lord  Sandwich  and  Mr.  Cooke 
were  before  the  House  in  the  character  <^  cri- 
minals, the  learned  lord  must  acknowledge 
that  they  were  not  tryine  for  the  same  offence, 
nor  were  their  cases  at  £ul  alike.  Mr.  Cooke 
might  be  convicted  of  the  charse  now  made, 
irould  tlttt  affect  lord  Sandwich  r  God  forbid ! 
What  Cooke  said,  was  no  evidence  against 
IcKFd  Sandwich,  or  any  person  on  earth  but 
himself.  Suppose  lord  Sandwich  never  made 
use  of  any  suoi  expression,  wluch  he  hoped 
and  believed  might  turn  out  to  be  the  truth, 
would  it  not  be  cruel  to  condemn  the  noble 
lord,  not  for  what  he  said,  but  merely  because 
another  person  had  slandered  him ;  the  very 
slander  was  an  act  of  a  criminal  nature  i^nst 
the  honour  and  character  of  the  noUe  lord, 
and  was  little  connected  in  one  point  of  view 
with  the  pvesent  enquiry.  In  another,  so  hi 
to  be  sure  as  those  discourses  tended  to  inti- 
midate and  prevent  reformation  and  justice, 
^y  might  Aimish  just  grounds  of  further 
proceeding  aoinst  Cooke.  But  he  would 
meet  the  noble  lord  fairly  upon  the  point  of 
law  and  analogy  to  the  proceedings  on  indict- 
ments, which  ne  seemed  so  much  to  rely 
upon.  liord  Sandwich  mi§^ht  appear  to  have 
wen  guilty  of  certain  acts  ot  mismanagement, 
as  first  oommiasioner  of  the  Admiralty,  in  the 
exerciae  of  directing  the  affiurs  of  the  Hospi- 
taiy  or  of  none.  So  miafat  Mr.  Cooke,  as  im- 
l^roperly  interfering,  and  by  abusing  lus  func- 
tion, or  he  might  not.  One  of  them  might 
be  proved  innocent,  and  not  the  other,  conse- 
4|uently  the  case  Btfl^  by  the  learned  lord  did 
not  applv.  But  he  would  put  a  case  to  the 
leacoed  lotd,  which  must  apply.  Supaosing 
that  aevtial  persons  had  been  included  m  the 
same  indictaMbt,  for  sevei»l  specific  offences^ 
might  aotevideticc  be  competently  given  and 
ffieeived  of  a  specific  criminal  act,  connnitled 
by  one  of  the  parties,  though  it  amounted  to 
hteaay  only  reapecting  another  charged  with 
a  different  species  of  ottenee?  Most  certainly; 
the  learned  k>rd  knew  it  would  not  serve  to 
convict  that  other  person  i^  another  ofience, 
because  hei^y  was  no  evidence,  and  could 
only  be  admissible  against  the  par^  on  whom 
the  ofienee  was  chaiged. 

The  Lard  Chancellor  asade  two  or  thi«e 
y&f  long  speeches  in  the  above  debate,  in 
wmok  ha  chiefly  laboured  to  establish  the  two 
Mlowing  propositjons  i 

IhU  the  cBQiniY  amounted  lo  a  speciic 
diaige  against  igid  Sandwkh;  and  if  taken 
aaagnnialchaqipeagMnstalltheae  cpncehi- 
4ld«a  the  taaoagementaf  Oreenwieh  Uospi^d, 
twgtimhr  part  of  it  applied  ganmHy 
'  avarypataan  cancerned;  conwquaM- 


Jbr»  whalhirtfae  enwnry  waa«a«al  or  indM- 
JbaiHy  idileeted^  the  evedelare  was  i^ 
^mm,wmf  pan  of  tlw  testimaiiy  given  «t 


Ihe  bar,  was  evidenoa  of  misconduct  of  lord 
Saodwieh;  or  if  it  was  not,  it  affected  him  a» 
ane  of  the  parties  accused* 

[His  lordship's  pardon  is  asked,  if  bi$ 
mesning  be  here  mia-atated  or  mis-conceived ; 
for  there  is  every  rational  ground  to  suppose 
such  doctrine  diametncally  opposite  to  the 
whole  code  of  English  jurisprudence,  and  cour 
sequently  foreign  from  the  noble  lord's  senti- 
ments.] 

To  prove  his  first  proposition,  be  quoted- 
capt.  Baillie's  book  on  the  table>  which  char;^ 
ed  lord  Sandwich,  in  direct  terms,  with  cor- 
ruptioD.  To  prove  the  second,  he  presumed 
that  the  permitting  tlK>se  mismanagements  to 
continue,  amounted  to  a  failure  of  duty,  in 
not  putting  a  stop  to  them ;  and  of  course,  if 
proved^  would  ultimately  reach  the  noble 
lord. 

The  Earl  of  Snndwich  said,  he  had  been 
charged  with  corruption ;  that  he  looked  upon 
the  enquiry  as  totally  personal  against  hnn ; 
that  he  wished  the  witness  might  be  per- 
mitted to  proceed,  because  he  was  consctoua 
of  the  injure  and  falsity  of  the  char|^ ;  but 
he  should  be  sorry  that  any  convemenceor 
deare  of  his  should  be  preferred  to  the  order 
and  estabhshed  mode  of  proceeding  in  that 
House. 

Lord  Camden  again  rose,  and  in  a  most  aUe, 
correct,  and  learned  speech,  answered  every 
thing  material  which  had  been  urged  on  the 
other  side.  He  sud,  the  present  motion,  if 
carried,  would  amount  to  a  real  dissolution  of 
the  Committee,  even  upon  the  argum^ats  of 
Uie  noble  lords  who  framed  and  supported  it. 
llie  present,  say  the  noble  lords,  is  an  enquiry 
into  the  conduct  of  the  earl  of  Sandwich, 
charing  him  with  manifest  corruption  in  the 
exercise  of  a  pubhc  trust  of  very  mreat  conse* 
ouence.  What  will  be  the  manitest  effect  of 
tnis  motion?  that  you  may  sit  here  till  the 
dog-^ys,  to  hear  the  examination  of  wit- 
nesees,  to  hear  complaints  and  chaiges  made 
against  any  person,  or  every  person,  but  the 
conduct  of  tne  noble  lord  into  whicn  you  ase 
convened  to  enquire.  I  only  repeat  this,  to 
shew  the  manifest  absurdities  people  are  drove 
to  adopt,  when  they  want  to  effect  purpoaea 
upon  principles  which  directly  make  againat 
them;  for  I  am  perfectly  satisfied  that  the 
pmsent  enquiry  contains  no  single  specific 
charge  against  any  man,  so  as  to  produce  con- 
vktion  or  condemnation.  The  event  of  it,  I 
acknowledge,  may  afford  matter  Pfopet  to 
found  a  criminal  proceeding  upon;  out  in  the 
first  instsnce,  I  afBrm  as  a  member  of  this 
House,  and  a  lawyer,  that  il  cannot  produce 
stkT  issue,  wht^  may  inunedialely  afEect 
either  the  noble  loid  or  any  otiier  of  the 
tiartiesl 

fiktc!^anif  itdid,  I  will  foUow  that  aaser- 
linn  with  anoliier,  that  evidsnoe  of  what  ano- 
ther person  said  thact  kid  Sandwich  lakl,  am 
jufermch  narafbetthatnoUe  lord  in  the 
mtHdUmki  dnipm.  U  is  but  heanm  av>. 
at  the  hmx.   It  «a|i  oiilf  aiSact  Mki 


a 


!U]      regpecting  the  Ro^  Hospital  at  Greemoich.         A.  D*  1778* 


[242 


if  not  disproved ;   and  if  ten  or  ten 

d  witnesses,  one  after  another,  came 

tovDsr  lordships'  bar,  to  con&rm  the  testi- 

acDTof  what  Mr.  Lefevre  heard  Mr.  Cooke 

p'thst  lord    Sandwich   had  told  him,  it 

vaii,  it  could  not  wdgh  a  feather  with  your 

Mips.   If  it  could  not,  the  conclusion  is 

ftKtnd  inevitable,  that  the  mentioning  lord 

Sodwkh's  name,  as  it  cannot  affect  in  the 

I  SHt remote  degree  that  noble  lord,  so  it  is 

I  Mztely  necessary  that  his  lordship's  name 

Mdbe  mentioned,  as  directly  and  circum- 

AotklJrnecessary  to  prmx  the  means  of  in- 

taidition  made  use  of^by  Cooke,  to  deter  the 

viliKss  from  shewing  anv  countenance  to 

apt  Bailiie.    Once  for  all,  I  say,  truth  and 

^itice  oblige  your  lordships  to  believe  the 

ttiblekdi  innocent  of  the  expressions  imputed 

to  htm;  jou  are  bound  as  judges  to  believe 

lis  brd^ip  innocent,  till  you  have  receiv- 

idpwf  to  the  contrary,  and  h^eard  his  de- 

|face:  and  having  no  proof  to  the  contrary, 

liDthe  evidence  objected  to,  you  have  no 

Rhtwhilfcver  to  refuse  a  species  of  evidence, 

Iwly  applicable  and  exclusively  to  another 

IjRoa,  wnich  will  certainly  be  the  case  should 

[Kpresent  motion  be  carried. 

1^  Tw  question  was  put,  and  carried  by  a  raa^ 

|«tycf46to  10. 

Tfc  Diike  of  Richmond  moved,  that  the 
teolntbn  now  carried,  be  read  and  delivered 
>>tbe  witness,  that  he  be  informed,  that  he 
toy  answCT  any  question,«so  that  he  does  not 
■HiticDlbe  name  of  the  earl  of  Sandwich. 
This  was  strongly  opposed,  as  unnecessary 
Nonprecedent^;  the  reading  of  the  mo- 
was  sufficient,  and  no  instance  was  ever 
mof  a  witness  at  the  bar  being  permitted 
,  hwe  any  of  the  proceedings  of  the  House 
JJ^posbession.  A  very  interesting  debate 
F*M>  and  the  noble  duke*s  motion  was  ne- 
PM  by  a  majority  of  44  to  15. 
^j^Hness  called  in,  and  the  two  last  ques- 
wteaod  answers  read.] 

Clerk  reads. 

*  Had  you  any  conversation  with  the  rev. 
*•  Cooke,  teldtive  to  any  prosecutions 
JPasicipt Bailiie?*' — I  was  gomgtothat; 
*•»  going  to  mention  it,  as  it  was  told  me 
pw re\'.  Mr.  Cooke ;  I  was  coing  to  relate 
^theb4^inningof  Mri  Cooke's  discourse 
»  UK  end. 

*Tbe  only  thing  wanted  is,  that  you  will 
■™«tbal  part  that  concerns  an  attempt  to 
■«^  any  body  to  prosecute  capt  Bailiie  ?" 
"^i  recolleci  after  capt,  Baillie's  book  came 
?^}t.  Cooke  informed  me  that  my  lord 
?«^  bd  said,  tliat  any  person  that 
**j!u  be  j-een  to  keep  company  with  captain. 
**j^  sliouid  have  a  stop  put  io  his  prefer- 
■^^  'OT  ever. 

^e  following  Resolution  was  also  read  to 
««^itnts8. 


/T^  it  be  resolved,  that  the 

yr.     ^^  Svidwich  be  mi  mei 
^^L  XXL 


name  of 
mexUioQed  by 


I 


the  witness  at  the  bar,  in  his  evidence  of  a 
conversation  with  any  other  person,  of  what 
the  said  person  informed  him,  that  the  said 
earl  had  said,  in  order  to  intimidate  the  said 
witness." 

That  Mr.  Lefevre  may  be  told,  that  if  any 
questions  are  asked  him  which  he  cannot  an- 
swer  without  going  contrary  to  tliat  resolu- 
tion, he  must  not  make  any  answer. 

Whether  he  received  any  intimidations  from 
any  person  relative  to  giving  support  to  capt. 
Bailiie? — A  number,  my  lords;  I  may  say 
numberless.  , 

Fron^  whom  ? — From  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke. 

What  were  those  intimidations  ?— -Frequent- 
ly he  told  me,  if  I  was  to  be  seen  in  company 
with  capt.  Bailiie,  or  had  any  correspondence 
with  him,  an  end  would  be  put  to  my  prefer- 
ment. I  was  going  out  lieutenant  m  the 
America;  he  came  to  my  house  and  said  to 
me,  I  find  you  keep  company  with  capt.  BaiU 
lie,  and  he  swore  by  his  Maker,  there  would 
be  an  end  put  to  my  preferment  if  I  did  not 
desist. 

Wjiat  were  the  words  he  made  use  of? — By 
God  your  preferment  will  be  stopt,  if  you  per- 
sist any  longer. 

Did  any  conversation  pass  between  Mr. 
Cooke  and  you,  relative  to  any  encourage- 
ment from  Mr.  Cooke,  to  any  person  to  pro- 
secute capt.  Bailiie?— No  encouragement  to 
prosecute  him,  only  to  have  nQthing  at  all  to 
do  with  him. 

Did 'you  hear  him  make  use  of  such  expres- 
sions of  intimidation  to  any  others  ? — ^To  my 
father,  who  was  then  a  dying  man ;  my  fa- 
ther told  capt.  Bailiie  there  was  mischief 
against  him,  and  bid  him  be  on  his  guard- 

Did  your  father  belong  to  the  Hospital } — 
He  did. 

You  were  intimidated  several  times  ? — ^Fre- 
quently. 

By  any  other  person  than  Mr.  Cooke  ? — ^No 
others. 

When  was  the  last  time  he  made  one  of 
these  declarations  ?— April,  1778. 

When  did  vou  relate  this  conversation  ?-^ 
To  my  father  immediately. 

When  to  other  people  ? — Some  part  of  the 
conversation  long  before  to  captain  Bailiie; 
this  I  spoke  of  particularly  before  the  ship 
sailed. 

When  did  you  make  this  conversation  of 
Mr.  Cooke's  public.^ — ^Immediately. 

To  whom  ? — Captain  Bailiie  and  mv  father. 
.  Any  body  else? — I  cannqt  jecollect  any- 
body else. 

Had  you  any  employment  in  the  Hospital  ?  • 
— ^None. 

How  were  you  intimidated  ? — I  was  a  lieu- 
tenant in  the  navy. 

You  said,  Mr.  Cooke  told  you  your  promo- 
tion would  be  stopt  N— He  did. 

Did  he  say  in  what  manner  it  would  be 
stopped? — He  said  an  entire  stop  would  be 
put  to  my  preferment,  and  that  it  would  be 
the  entire  ruin  of  my  father  and  family,  if  I 

R 


eiS] 


18  GEORGE  m.         The  Case  of  Captain  Thm^  SafOk,         [944 


w«s  ever  seen  to  keep  company  with  captain 
Baillie,  or  to  correspond  wiUi  hiin. 

How  was  a  stop  |o  be  put  to  your  prefer- 
jnent? — By  my  remaining  a  lieutenant  as  I 
tras,  I  suppose. 

Did  Mr.  Cooke  say  he  had  any  authority  for 
sayins,  any  person  would  be  marked  that  con- 
versed with  capt.  Baillie?— He  did  say  he  had 
autliority  for  saying  so. 

I  desire  he  may  be  asked  what  authority 
be  had  for  saying  so?— He  told  me  he  had  it 
(rem  a  nobleman  high  in  oftce. 

What  nobleman  ?     [Ordered  to  withdraw.] 

Here  a  very  warm  debate  ensued:  The 
£arl  of  Sandwich  saicL  he  wished  most  heartily 
that  the  resolution  nad  not  been  made ;  and 
if  there  was  any  way  of  getting  rid  of  it,  he 
should  be  e.ttremely  glad  to  do  it.  He  com- 
plained greatly  of  the  conduct  of  noble  lords 
on  the  other  side^  who,  in  order  to  harass  and 
tire  the  House,  started  debates  upon  every 
trifling  occasion.  They  wished,  he  said,  to 
put  the  enquiry  off  till  the  very  close  of  the 
session,  to  preclude  him  from  a  defence ;  and 
lamented,  that  the  enquiry  had  not  at  the  be- 
ginning been  so  constituted,  as  to  have  ad- 
mitted him  to  make  his  defence  to  every  dif- 
ftrent  species  of  charge,  as  they  were  brought 
forward. 

\  The  Duke  of  IRicbmond  disclaimed  any  in- 
^ntion  of  procrastination  or  delay;  observed, 
that  it  was  not  a  pleasant  task  on  his  part : 
that  the  charge  of  delay  lay  much  more  justly 
ajgainstthe  noble  earl  and  his  friends,  than 
on  those  at  his  side  of  the  House ;  he  acknow- 
ledged indeed,  that  he  had  fortunately  laid  a 
temptation,  which  ihev  had  caught  at;  and 
that  they  now  found  they  were  in  a  situation 
ffom  which  they  could  not  e.xtricate  them- 
selves ;  that  the  noble  lord's  affected  sorrow 
might  easily  be  accoimted  for ;  he  voted  for 
the  question,  on  the  division,  when,  he  might 
have  prevented  it ;  he  now  lamented  that  it 
hiad  ever  passed,  and  recommended  to  have  it 
rescinded,  or  dispensed  with,  when  he  knew, 
by  the  orders  of  the  House,  that  it  was  totaUly 
impracticable.  Hb  grace  spoke  for  some  time 
i^  this  strain,  and  vras  very  severe  on  the  no- 
ble e^rl.  A  very  considerable  pause  now  en- 
sued, several  methods  were  proposed  to  get 
rid  of  the  difficulty ;  the  witness  was  at  length 
called  in. 

Asked,  Who  was  the  nobleman  mentioned 
by  Mr.  Cooke? — ^Aml  to  mention  the  noble- 
man's name? 

He  must  read  the  resolution. — That  de- 
prives me. 

Whether  he  may  name  the  noble  lord  or 
npt  ?  (The  Resolution  re^  to  the  witness.) 
You  are  to  answer  what  nobleman  ? — I  shoukl 
be  sony  to  fall  under  any  censure  of  the 
House,  but  that  resolution  entirely  prevents 
me  from  mentioning  the  nobleman. 

Will  you  be  so  good  as  to  tell  the  House 
what  other  intimidations  passed  from  Mr. 
Cipoke  to  you,  or  whether. ypu  took  any  op- 


portunity of  eomplaining  to  any  person  when 
you  was  so  intimidated  ? — ^Last  May  I  made 
It  my  business  to  £o  to  the  Admiralty ;  I  went 
four  mornings  with  intent  to  see  a  noble  lord,'' 
to  tell  him  01  Mr.  Cooke's  behaviour;  I  could 
not  see  that  noble  lord ;  I  was  denied  him 
frequently,  and  told  that  the  noble  lord  would 
see  nobody.  I  went  the  next  morning  into 
the  captains'  room,  the  servant  was  £sixed 
to  go  up  to  the  noble  lord,  but  I  could  not  see 
him  that  mornine;  I  went  then  to  endeavour 
to  see  Mr.  Stephens  two  or  three  moniingi^ 
and  waited  from  two  or  three  o'clock  till  aitec 
^ve,  but  could  not  see  Mr.  Stephens. 

Did  any  thing  pass  between  you  and  Mc* 
Cooke,  about  these  af&drs  coming  into  |^aili|-. 
ment? — ^Yes,  about  the  middle  of  June,  177r« 
I  spoke  to  Mr.  Cooke  about  his  speaking 
something  disrespectful  of  the  lieutenant* 
governor;  I  said  these  affairs  might  QOinii 
mto  parliament ;  he  seemed  to  catch  at  tbal^ 
and  said,  a  noble  lord  would  take  care  and  piiit 
captain  BaiUie  out  of  his  office  before  waJt 
should  be. 

Whether  he  is  to  name  that  noble  ]ord?<^-« 
I  am  not  at  liberty  to  mention  that. 

Did  he  mention  what  noble  lord  would  put 
him  out  of  his  office  ? — He  did  mention  him. 

I  desire  he  may  answer  who  it  was? — Have 
I  a  right  to  answer  while  that  resolution  is  in 
being? 

Not  against  the  resolution;  I  wish  Mr.  Le« 
fevre  would  be  correct  in  repeating  to  th^ 
House,  the  substance  of  what  passed  Oetweea 
I^r.  Cooke  and  him  about  turning  captain 
Buillie  out,  rather  than  it  should  come  befora 
parliament? — As  I  mentioned  before,  in  t|ie 
middle  of  June,  1777,  as  we  were  talkipg  of 
the  affair^  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  he  took  oc- 
casion to  mention  captain  ^ailUe's  name ;  I 
bid  him  desist;  I  said  perhaps  the  affiiirs  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  might  come  into  narliai- 
ment ;  he  seeiped  to  catch  at  that,  ana  said, 
a  noble  lord  would  take  care  he  Should  noi 
do  that,  he  should  be  turned  out  of  his  office 
first.  ' 

Did  any  thing  more  pass  between  yoa  and 
him  on  that  particular  sul^t? — ^Not  on  tbpi 
particular  subject 

Did  any  thing  else  pass,  on  any  other  sub- 
ject, relating  to  Greenwich  Hospital  ?— -J 
summoned  before  the  committer  at 
wich  Hospital ;  Mr.  Cooke  stood  up  nnd 
sisted  upon  it  that  I  should  not  say  one  word ; 
and  Mr.  Barker,  the  chairman,  I  believe,  bid. 
mc  CO  out,  and  said  that  I  should  not  s«^  a 
woro. 

Did  any  thing  pass  relaUve  to  any  other 
matter  of  Greenwich  Hospital  ?-r-No  other  in 
particular. 

Are  you  ^  lieutenant  in  the  service?— I 
not. 

When   did  you  leave  the  service  ?- 
May ;  I  guitted  it  entirely  from  the  threats  K 
received  from  Mr.  Cooke. 

What  threats?—- That  a  stop  should  be  put 
to  niy  proffiotioiv  because  I  spoke  to  eaptola. 


ft$]         reipecHng  iht  Royal  Hospital  at  GreetvoouA.        A.  D.  177S. 


[246 


^;  Itil&MIWDotkiiowthatlhadacted 
ivrong  m  anj  particular,  and  therefore  I  shouM 

H<H^  Ugh  ^efe  Vdit  in  (he  list  of  lieiite- 
flttiuf^  Mlk^  &ete  nught  be  3  or  300 

'  wfaBftifioe  were  ymk-made  a  lieutenant?— 
CMMr,  1775. 

y^htA  did  tou  qtdt?— November,  1778. 

Wto^fh^  h  it  common  to  promote  lieute- 
ihsfe^  im)^  they  merit  it  by  their  own  gal- 
hlWr^P*J  never  said  I  expected  preferment; 
wd^wAl  expect  to  meet  with  it,  from  what 
^vaStOld  tncf. 

BM  of  Sandmich,  Whettier  you  recollect 
a  co&vehKtiioh  betweeh  ydu  and  me  at  Port^ 
Bouth  ?  And  whether  you  did  not  apply  fur- 
Iherf— ^Tcs,  I  did;  to  know  whether  what 
Mr.  Cooke  told  die  was  true  or  no ;  and  I 
iKNigbt^  fh)m  what  you^  lordship  said,  it  was 
Me. 

Wbcihct  yotir  ouitting  the  service  was  not 
th  act  of  your  own  r — It  was ;  fifom  the  threats 
tf  flr.  Cdoke,  ta&  the  answer  I  received  fifom 
your  lordship. 

*  Whether  you  were  ever  threatened  by  me  ? 
—I  never  said  1  was  threatened  by  your  lord- 
dim. 

^.  When  you  met  the  noble  lord,  what  pre- 
famefil tfid  you  ask  for? — ^Not  any  in  parti- 
War;  I  believe' I  asked  him  to  consider  me, 
if  any  preferment  was  going  forward,  and  if  I 
^bsto  expect  any  further  preferment  from 
Hie  nc^le  lord. 

How  iot^  had  yoH  been  a  lieutenant  when 
llr.  Cooke  said  a  stop  should  be  put  to  your 
ifeHcfiucnt? — \  had  b^  a  lieutenant  two 
youi  and  a  hadf. 

*  Sfioutd  von  hafve  thought  of  qintting  the 
Afviodp  when  you  had  been  two  years  and  a 
WC  if  jou  had  not  been  told  that  you  should 
rteeC  With  no  preferment? — ^No,  I  should  itot; 
I  loved  the  service. 

You  were  made  a  lieutenant  in  1775? — 


And  jou  quitted  in  November,  1778  ?— Not 
^ited  the  service,  only  on  half-pay. 

In  October,  1776,  you  met  lord  Sandwich? 
—No,  I, did  not  mention  that  time;  I  said 
#beD  lus  lordship  was  at  Portsmouth ;  that 
was  last  year,  that  has  nothing  to  do  with 
1775,  or  1776. 

Ton  said,  ftom  the  conversation  between 
mrand  lord  Sandwich  at  Portsmouth,  you 
oelieved  that  what  Mr.  Cooke  said  was  true, 
that  a  stop  diould  be  put  to  your  preferment; 
pve  an  account  of^  that  conversation?— I 
asked  his  lordship,  if  I  was  to  expect  any  fur- 
Iber  preferment ;  his  lordship,  for  a  long  time^ 
OKufe;  no  answer  at  all ;  at  last,  I  think,  his 
lotdship  ssdd,  that  he  had  a  eood  opinion  of 
m^  but  that  if  I  stood  there  from  tnat  time 
to  tnat  time  twdvemonths,  I  should  get  no- 
f^uoutofluin. 

W^xmaX  all  he  sud  to  you?-— Ves;  that  I 
ttAAX  expect  no  other  answer. 

m  ssQr/tbat  the  only  thing  that  lord  l^d- 


wich  said  to  you  was.  th^t  he  had  a  very  good 
opinion  of  ^u,  butihat  if  you  st^d  there 
from  that  time  to  that  time  twelvemonths, 
you  should  get  nothing  out  of  him;  how  did 
you  understand  from  that,  that  he  did  not 
mean  to  prefer  you? — From  the  very  great 
indiflerence  widi  which  it  fell  from  him.  One 
circumstance  I  forgot  to  mention ;  prior  to 
this  discourse,  early  in  the  morning,  I  went 
on  board  of  the  yacht,  his  lordship  turned  his 
back  on  me,  aiid  went  down  into  the  cabin 
immediately;  this  was  the  same  morning, 
before  my  conversation  with  lord  Sandwich. 
I  went  on  board  the  America,  told  my  captain 
of  it,  and  mentioned  Mr.  Cooke's  converse 
tion ;  and  he  said,  did  I  not  tell  you^  that  that 
man  would  not  do  you,  or  any  body  else,  any 
good. 

How  long  might  it  be  after  you  asked,  the 
question,  before  nis  lordship  made  any  answer 
*atall? — I  believe  some  minutes;  for  I  fol- 
lowed my  lord  from  sir  Thomas  Pye*s  house, 
a  good  way  down  Portsmoutli. 

How  long  was  it?-rl  believe  a  quarter  of 
an  hour,  at  least. 

Whether  yo\i  solicited  the  First  I^rd  of  the 
Admiralty  frequently  before  this  ? — Several 
times ;  I  suppose  three  months  before. 

What  was  your  father? — ^A  lieutenant  in 
the  Hospital. 

One  of  the  complainants  with  captain  BaiU 
lie? — I  believe  he  was ;  I  hav^  heard  him  say 
he  should  certainly  assist  captain  Baillie,  that 
he  believed  he  \vas  an  honest  man. 

Had  you  received  any  answer  firom  lordf 
Sandwich? — ^Yes;  he  said  I  was  aver^young 
officer,  he  wished  me  success.  I  told  it  to  my 
friends,  and  they  said  there  was  no  hopes  of 
my  being  preferred. 

When  was  your  first  application  ?— My  first 
application  was  before  I  was  lieutenant  of  the 
America. 

After  jfin  w^re  lieutenant? — ^December, 
1777. 

What  answer  <fi'd  you  get  then  ? — ^Rather  a 
flattering  one. 

When  was  this  answer,  that  you  were  a 
voung  officer,  and  he  wished  you  success  ? — X 
believe  it  was  in  February,  1778. 

It  was  since  that,  that  you  saw  lord  Sand« 
wich  at  Portsmouth  ? — ^Yes. 

Since  that,  you  have  made  no  application 
at  all  ?— None. 

What  ship  were  you  in  at  that  time  ? — ^Tha 
Aqierica. 

Who  was  commander  ? — ^Lord  Longford, 

A  man  may  have  been  a  young  lieutenant 
and  have  been  a  long  time  at  sea;  what  age 
are  you  ?— Thirty-two. 

How  long  have  you  been  at  sea? — Twenty- 
two  years ;  I  went  to  sea  when  I  was  ten  years 
of  age. 

When  did  that  conversation  pass  between 
you  and  lord  Sandwich|  at  Portsmouth? — ^I 
believe  in  last  May. 

When  was  the  conversation  with  Mr. Cooke? 
-— BetweeaFebniaiy  and  April,  1778. 


S47] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Capiain  Thomas  BaiUier  [S48 


In  May,  you  saw  lord  Sandwich  at  Ports- 
mouth  ? — Yes. 

How  many  lieutenants  stood  on  the  list 
wlien  you  applied  to  lord  Sandwich  ? — Many ; 
perhaps  7  or  800;  or  perhaps  1,000. 

Though  vou  had  been  so  long  at  sea,  would 
you  have  felt  any  sort  of  inclination  to  have 
quitted,  supposing  you  had  thought  you  were 
in  a  likely  way  to  have  the  chance  with  other 
people  for  your  preferment? — I  never  should; 
other  people  know  I  never  should ;  it  was  an 
*  employment  that  I  loved. 

[Mr.  Lefevrc  ordered  to  withdraw.] 

The  House  adjourned  to  the  next  day. 


Wednesday,  April  21. 
Captain  Baillie  called  in. 

What  proceeding  he  took  in  consequence 
of  his  book ;  and  what  persons  he  laid  the 
complaints  of  Greenwich  Hospital  before  ? — 
Does  your  lordship  mean  in  regard  to  tlie 
printed  Case  of  Greenwich  Hospitiil  ? 

Tes. — When  I  had  prepared  the  printed 
Case,  I  thought  it  prudent,  nrst  to  lay  it  before 
the  First  Lord  of  the  Admiralty,  hoping  that 
he  would  pay  some  attention  to  the  com- 
plaints in  tnat  book,  as  it  is  called;  I  think 
tliat  was  on  the  7th  of  March  twelvemonth. 
It  lay  with  his  lordship  nine  or  ten  days  before 
I  attempted  to  make  any  fiirther  application ; 
then  I  waited  in  person  on  the  First  Ix)rd  of 
the  Admiralty,  hoping  he  would  give  me  some 
satisfaction,  and  redress  the  grievances  com- 
plained of.  He  did  not  pay  that  attention  to 
them  that  I  expected ;  ne  said  he  had  re- 
ceived a  particular  letter  from  me ;  I  told  his 
lordship  it  was  on  a  particular  occasion ;  and 
asked  his  commands  upon  it ;  he  said  he  had 
BO  commands  upon  it ;  I  thought  an  exami- 
nation was  likely  to  take  place,  sir  HughPal- 
liser  and  Mr.  Stephens  being  present;  and,  as 
I  had  no  witness,  I  made  a  now,  and  came 
away.  I  have  a  copy  of  that  letter. 
'  Is  it  not  on  the  table  ? — ^No ;  it  is  the  letter 
said  to  be  lost^  and  not  produceable  by  the 
Boble  lord  to  whom  it  was  addressed.  I 
thought  it  prudent  to  lay  it  privately  before 
his  lordship  first :  I  beg  the  permission  of  the 
House  to  have  that  letter  read. 

Clerk  reads  the  following  letter : 

«  To  the  Riffht  Honourable  the  Earl  of  Sand- 
wich ;  addressed  on  his  Majesty's  service. 

«  Royal  Hospital,  March  7th,  1778. 
''As  your  lordship  has  hitherto  been  dis- 
posed to  hear  only  one  side  of  the  aflkirs  of 
Greenwich  Hospital,  I  take  the  liberty  to  in- 
close, for  your  lordship's  consideration,  a  state 
of  facts,  which.  I  trust,  will  stimulate  your 
lordship  to  rearess  the  grievances  therein 
complained  of;  and  thereby  restore  me  to  my 
proper  command  in  the  Hospital,  of  which  I 
nave  been  deprived  by  a  combination  of  land- 
men, who,  if  they  had  any  right  to  a  footing 
in  the  Hospital,  can  have  no  pretence  to  per- 


vert and  depose  the  lawful  government  there- 
of. 

**  I  liave  the  honour  to  acquaint  your  lord* 
ship,  that  I  will  not  sit  down  contented  to  see 
the  men  cheated,  and  myself  insulted,  by 
priests,  clerks,  or  cdntractors.  I  think  it,  how- 
ever my  duty  to  forewarn  your  lordship,  that 
if  you  are  any  longer  deaf  to  reasonable  conv- 
plaints,  I  shall  put  this  effort  for  redress  into 
execution;  which  I  should  have  deferred  for  a 
more  seasonable  opportunity,  but  the  recent 
overbearing  conduct  of  the  faction  so  firequ^it- 
]y  alluded  to,  in  the  inclosed  Case,  has  con^ 
pelled  me  to  struggle  for  immediate  redress. 

**  I  would  not  nave  your  lordship  under- 
stand, that  I  mean  to  disturb  government  at 
this  critical  time,  by  applying  to  parliament; 
I  scorn  the  imputation  of  making  any  other 
appeal  than  to  the  body  of  the  conunistdoners 
and  governorsof  the  Hospital,  whose  boundeD 
duty  it  IS  to  hear  and  redress  the  grievances 
complained  of;  and  I  most  sincerely  lament 
that  an  establishment,  so  truly  popular  and 
great,  should  be  so  far  pervcrtca  as  to  force 
me  to  make  any  appeal. 

"  I  am,  my  lora,  your  lordship's  most  obe- 
dient, and  most  humble  servant, 

"  Thomas  Bail  Life."" 

Give  an  account  of  what  steps  were  taken  in 
consequence  of  this? — In  conscqiicnce  of  that 
letter  and  printed  Ca^^e,  instead  ol  any  exami- 
'nation  into  the  affairs  of  Greenwich  Hospital, 
there  was  a  complaint  set  on  fuut  against  me  z, 
a  number  of  the  officers  were  encouraged  to 
complain  of  it ;   I  did  not  know  that  I  had 

fiven  any  cause  of  complaint  against  me. 
he  printed  Case  was  brought  down  to  Green- 
wich Hospital ;  otherwise  1  should  have  wait- 
ed longer  for  his  lonlship*s  indulgence  than 
ten  days ;  perhaps  a  month,  or  perhaps  till 
now.  The  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  set  on  foot  a  com- 
plaint against  me ;  and  went  about  among  the 
ofRcers,  as  if  he  had  been  canvassing  for  votes 
at  an  election :  the  m^ority  of  the  naval  offi- 
cers did  not  complain;  nor  was  any  complaint 
made  an  act  of  the  council  of  the  house ;  it 
was  rather  a  kind  of  conspiracy;  I  don't  know 
what  to  call  it.  Another  complaint  was  set 
on  foot  against  captain  Baillie  at  the  board  of 
directors  that  met  with  more  success ;  that 
was  sent  in  form  to  the  lords  of  the  Admiralty. 
The  clerk  of  the  works,  and  the  civil  officers 
of  Greenwich  Hospital,  also  complained,  who 
were  accused  themselves  -.  nor  ^^as  this  an  act 
of  the  councD,  which  is  usual  when  any  com- 
plaint is  presented  to  the  board  of  Admiralty. 
The  governor  did  not  sign  any  complaint 
against  captain  Baillie,  as  governor,  but  as  a 
director  only.  In  consequence  of  these  com- 
plaints, a  general  court  was  held  in  April ; 
but  instead  of  a  court  of  the  noble  persons 
that  constitute  a  great  part  of  that  body,  there 
was  a  sort  of  a  puisne  general  court  convened^ 
in  order  to  have  it  submitted  to  them,  what 
should  be  done  respecting  the  book.  That  it 
was  not  such  a  general  court  as  I  had  wished  ^ 


fi9]  respecHng  the  Royai  HotfiM  ai  Greenmci^    .    A.  D.  1778.. 


[250 


tfaat  Mr.  Ibbetson  had  once,  on  his  own  sug-^ 
gestioQ,  summoned  a  full  eeneral  court,  to 
elect  a  new  steward  to  the  Hospital ;   I  hum- 
bly conceive  it  was  of  more  consequence  to 
enquire  whether  the  finest  and  noblest  charity 
in  the  world  was  well  or  ill  manaeed ;  abused 
or  not  abused ;  was  a  matter  of  inSnitely  more 
importance  than  the  election  of  a  steward  to 
the  Hospital ;    and  therefore  I  hoped,  that  as 
much  pains  would  be  taken  to  assemble  an 
impartial  general  court,  to  take  the  Case,  stat^ 
ing  such  a  variety  of  criminal  charges,  into 
consideration,  as  Liad  evidently  been  &sstowed 
on  the  former  occasion.    Tliat  on  the  14tH  of 
April,  1778,  the  general  court,  consisting  of 
six  lords  of  the  Acuniralty^  Mr.  Stephens,  "meir 
secretary,  the  governor  of  the  Hospital,  three 
commissioners  of  the  navy,  the  lieutenant-go- 
Temor  (captain  Baillie),and  thirteen  directors, 
met.    The  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty  was 
pleased  to  say,  when  the  complaints  were  read, 
at  this  court,  against  captain  Baillie,  if  he 
would  name  a  committee  of  directors  out  of 
the  number  present,  he  should  choose  his 
men.    I  objected  to  the  directors,  because 
they  had  complained  of  me.  and  were  im- 
peached by  me ;  I  therefore  tnought  it  an  im- 
proper tribunal  to  try  me,  or  themselves,  who 
were  the  very  persons  I  had  accused.  I  object- 
ed to  these  directors  sitting  in  iudsment  upon 
their  own  conduct.    Lord  Sandwich,  however, 
thought  it  a  proper  tribunal  to  examine  into 
the  Sairs  of  Greenwich  Hospital.    His  lord- 
ship desired  me  to  object  to  anv  of  them.    I 
thought,  as  they  hacl  turned  the  tables  upon 
me,  none  of  them  were  proper  persons  to  sit 
on  the  enquixy.    They  were,  however,  consti- 
tuted a  conmiittee^  and  they  sat  seven  da^s. 
The  whole  of  their  proceedings  was  partial, 
arbitraiT,  and  unjust 

Give  an  account  of  what  happened  at  that 
court.  What  day  was  the  general  court  of  en- 
quiry ordered? — I  believe,  the  14th  of  April, 
1778.  The  resolution  of  the  eeneral  court  is 
among  the  papers  on  your  loroships'  table. 

Mr.  Ibbetton  called  in. 
(Reads  the  following  Resolution.) 

^  At  a  general  court  of  the  commissioners 
and  governors  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  which 
was  held  at  the  Admiralty,  on  Tuesday,  April 
14, 1778. 

*'  Present,  right  hon.  earl  of  Sandwich,  John 
Buller,  eso.  lord  Charles  Spencer,  right  hon. 
earl  of  lisoume,  sir  Hugh  Palliser,  right  hon. 
lord  Mulgrave,  lords  of  uie  Admiralty;  Philip 
Stephens,  esq.  secretary  to.  ditto. — Director, 
sir  Charles  Hardy,  admiral  of  the  white ;  Di- 
rectors, George  Marsh,  esq.  Timothy  Brett, 
esq.  sir  Rich.  Temple,  hart,  commissioners  qf 
the  navy. — Captain  Baillie,  lieutenant^ver- 
nor,  sir  Memck  Burrell,  hart.  Z.  P.  l^nne- 
reau,  esq.  James  Stuart,  eso.  John  Cleveland, 
esq.  Perefliae  Cust,  esq.  T.  T.  Savary,  esq. 
Thomas  Hicks,  esq.  John  Barker,  esq.  Wil- 
liua  Wells;  esq.  rev.  Mr.  Cooke,  Joah  Bates, 


esq.  sir  Richard  jBickerton,  WiUiam' Reynolds, 
esq.  directors. 

**  The  Earl  of  Sandwich  informed  the  court, 
that  he  had  called  them  together  in  order  to 
la^  before  them  a  letter,  which  the  secretary 
of  the  Admiralty  had  received  from  captain 
Baillie,  lieutenant  governor  of  Greenwich 
Hospital,  dated  tlie  ^6th  of  last  month;  toge- 
ther with  a  printed  book,  which  accompamed 
it,  entitled,  ^*  The  Case  of  the  Royal  Hospital 
for  Seamen,''  &c.  as  also  several  appUcations 
from  the  board  of  directors,  the  officers  of  the 
council,  the  principal  civil  officers,  and  great 
numbers  of  the  clerks,  &c.  who  conceive 
themselves  greatly  traduced  and  injured  by 
the  charges  contained  in  the  said  book,  de- 
sirinz  redress ;  all  which  papers  were  read ; 
and  Mr.  Brett  and  Mr.  barker,  tMro  of  the  di- 
rectors who  were  not  oresent  when  the  appli- 
cation from  that  board  was  signed,  declared 
their  fiill  concurrence  in  every  Uiing  set  forth 
therein.  And  the  secretary  read  to  the  court 
a  letter  which  he  had  received  from  Mr.  £den» 
another  of  the  directors,  representing,  that  it 
would  not  be  in  his  power  to  attend  the  pre- 
sent meeting  to-day,  as  he  was  to  leave  Lon- 
don yesterday' ;  but  that  having  read  captain 
Bailiie's  performance,  he  wa^  satined  that  il 
was  improper  and  unwarrantable  in  every  re- 
spect, and  that  he  should  be  very  glad  to  near 
tnat  the  general  court  was  disposed  to  proceed 
accordingly. 

'<  Captain  Baillie,  who  was  present,  acknow- 
ledged iiimself  to  be  the  author  of  tne  above- 
mentioned  Case ;  at  the  same  time  insistii^ 
that  it  was  not  a  book  but  a  memorial. 

''  Great  part  of  the  said  Case  was  then  read ; 
particularly  such  part  of  it  as  niore  imme- 
diately reflected  upon  the  proceedings  of  the 
directors  and  their  secretary. 

''Mr.  Cust  then  moved,  that  a  committee 
might  be  app^ted  to  investigate  the  grounda 
of  the  charges  contained  in  the  said  printed 
book :  and  the  court  being  of  opinion  that  it 
nrould  be  a  very  proper  measure,  captain  Bail- 


lie  was  desired  to  name  seven  of  the  most  in- 
dependent directors  to  form  a  committee  for 
that  purpose,  which  he  declined.  Lord  Sand- 
wich then  took  a  list  of  the  directors,  and 
having  put  down  the  names  of  the  following 
gentlemen,  viz.  ^r  Merrick  Burrell,  Mr.  Fon-> 
nereau,  Mr.  Cust,  Mr.  Savary,  Mr.  Barker, 
Mr.  Wells,  Mr.  James,  and  Mr.  Reynolds; 
captain  BailUe  was  asked,  if  he  had  any  ob- 
jection to  them,  or  to  any  of  them. ;  to  which 
he  declined  giving  any  other  answer,  than 
that  he  disapprove  of  the  mode. 

"It  was  tnen  resolved,  'That  the  above- 
mentioned  gentlemen,  except  Mr.  Fonnereau, 
who  desired  to  be  excused  on  account  of  his 
ill  health,  should, be  a  committee  (of  whom 
three  to  be  a  quorum)   to   investigate  the 

grounds  of  the  several  charges  contained  in 
le  above-mentioned  book ;  and  they  werie 
desired  to  proceed  upon  that  business  with  all 
convenient  dispatch,  at  such  times  and  places^ 
as  they  should  think  most  proper  for  the  pur . 


«5I] 


Ig  GEOAGE  UL  ThdOueof  Captain  ThcfkOi  BOtte,        t^f 


pom;  a&dtrhen  ih^  had  completed  sach  tiv. 
vestigation,  to  let  the  lords  of  the  Admiralty 
iaanw  it»  that  another  general  court  might  be 
called  to  receive  their  report'"— -Adjourned. 

It  appears  by  the  directions  given  to  the 
^mmittec.  that  they  were  to  investigate  the 
grounds  of  the  several  charges  contamed  in 
captain  Baillie's  book  ?— Ye^ 

Are  there  any  directions  in  the  order,  to 
«tiquire  into  the  complaints  against  captain 
BuUie  ?^That  is  all  that  appears. 

Captain  Baillie  again. 

Give' an  account  of  what  yon  know  of  the 
]^fOoeedihgs  of  that  court  of  enquiiy,  appointed 
to  investigate  the  grounds  of  the  complaints. 

, 1%  was  a  most  complicated  business ;  it  is 

impossible  to  remember  the  whole  of  it ;  it 
was  the  course  of  seven  days  examination. 
First,  iJiey  came  down  with  a  special  pleader, 
ft  counsel  at  law,  which  I  thought  not  neces- 
sary on  an  enquiry  into  the  management  of 
Greenwich  Hospital ;  I  had  no  iaea  that  a 
counsel  was  to  be  employed  against  me,  eft 
the  pensioners.  This  gentleman  brow-besct 
me,  he  brow-beat  the  evidences ;  he  drew  out 
the  charges,  by  taking  a  chain  of  sentences, 
bits  of  lines,  apd  scraps  of  paragraphs,  out  of 
my  book.  I  was  brow-beat;  I  was  called  a 
blackguard  by  the  clerk  of  the  works,  and  a 
liar  by  the  Rev.  Mr.  Cooke.  I  beg  to  refer 
to  my  letter  to  Uie  general  court  of  governors 
and  t:ommissioners^  in  which  is  a  particular 
account  of  all  or  most  of  the  transactions  of 
the  committee ;  it  is  dated  the  l!2th  of  Au- 
gust, and  lays  on  vour  lordships'  table. 

You  understand,  it  is  expected  that  you  are 
to  swear  to  the  truth  of  the  contents  of  the 
letter  ? — If  there  is  the  smallest  draimstance 
tlwt  I  cannot  swear  to,  before  your  lordships 
end  before  God,  £  will  point  if  out  First  of 
all,  a  respectable  officer  of  Greenwich  Ho^* 
l^ital,  lieuteneint  Gordon,  as  soon  as  he  had 
given  his  evidence,  he  was  told  by  Mr.  Mbr- 
nui,  because  he  did  not  approve  of  his  evi- 
dence^ That  he  mkht  go  to  the  devil;  he  is 
^  officer  that  had  Dotb  bos  legs  hto^je  m  the 
service. 

Did  this  coihmittce  repi^ve  Mr.  Morgan 
fyi  so  doing  ?— Not  in  the  least ;  after  lieute- 
ikaAt  Smith  had  given*  his  evidence,  Mr.  Mor- 
^n  said.  Your  evidence  i^  a  libel,  Sir.  This 
terrified  the  officers ;  they  thought  they  should 
be  brought  into  the  predicament  that  I  was. 
I  beg  to  read  my  letter  of  the  isth  of  August, 
to  the  general  court  of  eov^tiiors  and  commts- 
Moners.  My  lords,  I  beg  leave  to  add,  that 
this  gentleman  (the  shor&hand  writ>!rj  whom 
I  difnot  expect*  to  see  here ;  on  the  first  day 
C»f  the  enquiry  I  saw  a  great  deal  of  foul  play; 
I  thought  the  proceedings  were  not  to-be  war- 
ilmted ;  I  sent  for  this  persbn  to  take  mmutes 
on  the  second  d^;  I  had  hmi  at  a  side-table; 
I  toldsMr.  Cust  that  he  Was  a  person  I  had 
itftiroduced  to  takte  miiiittes  by  his  leave ;  he 
ashed'  him  who  kewte;  he  said  he  wa»  a 


shoruhand  writer  brought  there  by  captain 
Baillie  40  take  notes;  upon  which  Mr.  Cust 
said,  Then  Mr.  Short-hand  writer  ple&se  to 
walk  out;  and  he  was  turned  out  in  that 
abhipt  manner.  I  believe  the  gentlenian  wajT 
frightened,  and  thought  he  was  going  to  be- 
beat  Here  is  an  expression  in  this  letter,  I 
bee  leave  to  mention  before  I  declare  it  upon 
oath;  I  understood,  at  a  prececKng  general 
court,  that  lord  Sandwich  ^id  none  were 
summoned  to  the  court  but  whom  he  thought 

Goper ;  when  I  objected  to  the  court,  to  die 
!St  of  my  belief,  he  said,  '^  A  general  court 
is  not  such  as  yt>u  choose  to  petition  for,  but 
such  as  I  think  proper  to  direct;*'  which  being 
contradicted  by  several  persons  of  chaiacter 
and  reputation,  I  don't  wish  to  give  it  in  ev^ 
dence,  thoueh  I  have  it  on  my  minutes  exact* 
ly  as  it  stands  in  my  letter. 

Captain  Bailie  reads  the  foUowing  Letter 
as  evidence: 

**  To  the  GovEavoRs  and  Commissiovers  of 
his  Majesty's  Royal  iiospttal  for  Seamen 
at  Greenwich. 

"  My  lords  and  gentlemen ; 

**  As  I  find  that  a  special  gcncrat!  court  is  ti 
be  held  this  day,  to  which  I  have  received  nd 
summons,  and  of  which  I  knew  nothing  till  a- 
few  days  ago,  I  imagine  that  it  is  intended  to 
receive  the  report  oT  the  proceedings  of  the 
committee  appointed  to  enquire  mto  the 
charges  laid  by  me  before  the  general  court^ 
in  order  to  obtain  your  sanction  to  the  in* 
tended  report. 

"  I  therefore  thhik  it  my  duty,  in  supperi 
of  the  cause  which  I  have  undertaken,  to  re* 
peat  my  protest  against  the  ^mmittee,  which 
has  undertaken  to  enquire  into  and  repoil 
concerning  the  truth  of  charges,  the  gre^s^ 

Eart  of  wFuch  is  against  themselves,  as  men^ 
ers  of  the  board  of  directors. 
**  When  I  first  laid  the  Case  and  Memorial 
before  the  eehcral  court,  I  had  no  idea  that 
the  truth  of  any  of  the  chafes  could  be  dis> 
puted.  I  drew  them  up  with  great  care,  and 
on  the- last  review,  erased  evei^  thing*  about 
which  I  had  the  smallest  doubt  in  my  own 
mind.  I  was  sensible  of  the  powers  and  m* 
flueiice  of  those  whom  I  was  opposine,  and 
that  iK>thing  could  support  me  but  truth  and 
justice ;  I  appeal  to  your  candid  recollectioa 
of  m^  conduct  in  several  instances  in  which 
l^e  pensioners  have  been  injured ;  I  appeal 
to  the  inclosed  testhnonials*  concerning  m^^ 
character  in  near  forty  years  service,  and  to 
my  conduct  in  the  Hospital,  whether  I  could 
have  any  other  motive  than  a  wish  to  recover 
and  preserve  this  noble  establishment  to  the 
sole  use  of  the  navy,  and  that  the  pensionera 
might  be  maintained  in  such  a  manner,   *  as 

% 

*  Tlieae  testimonials  were  not  delivered ;  o«p^il| 
Baillie  had  them  ready,  but  finding  Utile  or  no  at» 
tentioa  paid  to  thin  Letter,  he  declined  sbj  fbrtjier 
attenpts  to-  obadn  jot  tioe;-«Or^.  Sd. 


fS8\         rapeMng  the  Rojffd  HotpUal  at:  GreeniMch.        A*  D.  1779. 


'  to  eooouiBge  fit  and.  able  persons  to  betake 
'  themselves  to  tbe  sea-service/ 

<<  My  situatioiiy  as  lieutenant  governor  of 
the  Hospital,  is  the  highest  preferment  of 
jvhjph  my  nmk  in  the  service  will  admiL  I 
)ave  therefore  nothing  to  hope  from  the  suc- 
cess of  the  chaises  which  I  have  exhibited, 
iiiit  in  the  line  ol  my  duty  as  an  officer  of  the 
Hospital ;  and  there  is  nothing  ur^ed  in  any 
jnrt  of  the  Case  or  Memorial  in  which  I  have 
pe  least  personal  concern :  I  was  myself  fully 
Hcured  in  ease  and  comfort,  if  I  could  have 
keard  with  indifference  the  complainants  that 
vere  continually  crowding  to  my  door ;  and  I 
know  that  I  have  acted  contrary  to  those 
maiimf  of  prudence  and  circumspection  which 
govern  the  world ;  but  I  should  have  ill  de- 
served the  ^pointments  with  which  I  have 
been  honoumi,  if  I  could  have  been  deterred 
by  menaces  or  dangers  from  doing  my  duty. 

**I  mpeal.  Gentlemen,  to  vour  general 
iQBowleaigpe  of  the  world,  whether  it  is  not 
more  natural,  in  the  current  of  human  afiiiurs, 
losupposcy  that  abuses  have  crept  into  the 
management  of  the  Hospital,  wbicn  has  been 
|o  lonf  established,  than  thaVevery  thing  is 
perfectly  right,. and  whether  the  knowledge 
if  thoee  abuses  is  more  likely  to  arise  from 
the  complaints  of  the  injured,  or  tbe  reports 
^  those  who  are  termed  the  proper  officers ; 
abuses,  it  is  well  known,  can  only  be  preventr 
<d  by  frequent  enquiries  by  those  wno  wish, 
and  have  power  to  reform  them,  and  such  a 
wish  must  appear  in  the  candour  and  attenr* 
tion  with  which  the  complaints  are  heard. 

**  That  I  have  not  been  beard  with  candour, 
}S  too  evident  from  every  part  of  the  proceed- 
ings on  my  complaints ;  i  meant. to  app^  to 
a  fidl  court  of  ^  the  jgreat  and  noble  per- 
sonages who  are  named  in  the  charter  as  go- 
yemors  and  commissioners  of  Uie  Hospital ; 
iMtteadof  whicky  1  have  been  informed  by  lord 
8&9dwiehf  that  none  are  summoned  to  Vte  gene^ 
tel  courts  hut  those  vhom  he  thinks  proper^*  I 
nave  brought  a  general  char^  of^  neglect  or 
misconduct  against  the  majority  of  those  into 
vhose  hands  the  government  of  the  Hospital 
has  fallen,  supported  by  a  variety  of  instances ; 
MdA  I  have  imdertaken,  at  the  hazard  of  every 
thing  which  is  dear  to  me  as  a  man  of  honour 
and  reputation,  to  prove  both  the  genend  and 
ifie  particular  charges. 

/*  But  I  had  no  idea  that  in  this  country  a 
tlibunal  could  have  been  erected,  in.  which 
the  accused  have  sat  in  judgment  on  their 
«wn  conduct,  and  are  now  to  determine  and 
Report  on  charves  against  themselves;  a  situa- 
tion which  I  £d  not  imagine  any  man  of  re- 
putation could  have  been  betrayed  to  appear 

•  ^  la  drawins  up  many  of  the  charges,  I 
tvposely  stated  them  in  the  strongest  terms, 
because  I  meant  to  provoke  an  enquiry.  I 
WW  how  common  xt»  maxim  b  to  stMe  and 

'  *.TlDsanlaiicQialtaliotwu  vilbdnwa,  u  be- 


DKM 


suppress  all  complaints  of  this  kind,  and  I 
dreaded  if  1  did  not  bring  on  a  full  and  fair  in* 
vestigation  of  the  charges,  that  I  should  injury 
the  cause  which  I  meant  to  support. 

"  As  I  am  convinced  that  several  of  the 
directors  mean  to  act  well,  and  are  therefore 
conscious  of  their  own  integrity,  I  expected 
that  on  reading  the  Case  and  Memorial,  they 
would  have  been  as  anxious  as  myself  for  an 
open  and  fiiir  enquiry,  as  the  only  oceans  of 
clearing  themselves  from  imputations,  espe- 
cially those  in  which  frauds  are  cl\argedto 
have  been  committed  on  the  Hospital,  with- 
out any  proper  enquiry  or  punishments  by  th« 
directors. 

"  My  expectations  would  have  been  fully 
answered,  when  I  heard  the  complaint  of  the 
directors  at  the  general  court  that  tliey  could 
no  longer  act  witn  credit  to  themselves  or  ad« 
vantage  to  the  public;  if  the^r  had  added, 
'  till  tne  charges  had  been  enquired  into,  and 
'  their  falsehoods  proved ;'  instead  of  which 
they  say,  *  till  exemplary  notice  has  been 

*  taicenof  the  {uitbor.' 
**  The  general  court  acted  perfectly  wre^ 

able  to  my  expectations,  when  they  deter- 
mined that  a  committee  should  be  appointed 
to  investigate  the  grounds  of  the  several 
charges  contained  in  the  printed  Case  of  the 
Hospital.  But  I  was  much  surprised  tp  hear 
roy  lord  Sandwich  propose  that  this  commit* 
tee  should  be  appointed  out  of  the  directors 
themselves.  Mr.  Brett  anticipated  me  in  the 
objection,  by  observing,  « That  they  had  al- 
'  ready  pronounced  the  charges  to  be  false 
'  and  scandalous,  and  that  after  the  enquiiy, 

*  the  committee  could  do  no  more;'  he  might 
also  have  added,  *  they  could  do  less.'  They 
had  also  demanded  that  I  might  be  punishoi 
for  having  made  my  charges,  a  demand  which 
they  had  a  right  to  make,  if  thcv  are  false  and 
scandalous ;  b\it  they  oueht  to  pave  seep  that 
this  demand  disqualified  thei]a  from  under- 
taking  to  enquire,  or  to  give  any  further  r9^ 
port,  in  order  to  obtain  the  punishmj^  whi(4i 
they  had  denumded. 

"  It  was  contrary  to  every  appearance  of 
fairness  and  candour,  and  to  eveqr  rule,  of 
public  business  In  like  cases,  to  appoint  any  of 
the  directors  members  of  the  committee;  in- 
stead of  which,  the  committee  appointed  con** 
sisted  entirelv  of  directors ;  and  the  gentle* 
man  who  took  the  most  active  part  in  report-, 
ing  the  complaints  against  lo/e,  was  appointed 
chairman. 

"I  considered  the  offer  of  his  lordship  for 
me  to  name  the  committee  out  of  the  direc« 
tors,  as  a  mockery  and  insult.  I  had  seen  al 
the  board  at  Salters-hall,  in  which  their.com* 
plaint  to  tbe  eeneral  court  was  resolved  on» 
that  many  of  the  members,  who  were  b^  no 
means  included  under  the  term  ^  acting  direc- 
torsy'  are  yet  liiehly  ofibided  at  eyerv  unputa- 
tion  on  the  conduct  of  the  board,  and  ^so/that 
they  seemed  eager  to  listen  to  every  excuse 
that  could  be  offered  bv  thosa  who  were, 
jniore  Mtiv^ly  concemedi.as  an  excuse..  tQ. 


«55] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaOlie,         [S36 


themselves  for  not  havin^  paid  more  alten> 
tion  to  the  business  of  the  Hospital.  Had 
I  not  observed  this,  and  had  they  not  joined 
in  pronouncing  the  charges  to  be  false  and 
scandalous  without  any  enquiry,  from  the 
opinion  which  I  had  entertained  of  several  of 
the  members  of  the  board,  I  should  have  been 
induced  to  have  waved  the  general  objection, 
and  submitted  the  whole  to  their  candid  de- 
termination. Anxious  as  I  am  for  my  reputa- 
tion, particularly  on  this  occasion,  when  the 
welfare  of  the  pensioners,  in  whose  cause  I 
have  engaged,  is  so  materially  involved,  I  fear 
that  the  angry  director  will  be  forgot,  and  the 
private  character  of  those  by  whom  I  am  op- 
posed will  be  weighed  against  me.  I  appeal, 
therefore,  gentlemen,  to  your  own  bosoms  at 
this  moment,  whether  you  are  not  much  too 
angry  against  me  for  having  made  these 
charges,  to  hear  with  calmness  and  temper 
any  proofs  which  may  be  brought  to  support 
ine. 

*^  Notwithstanding  the  objections  which  I 
have  here  made  agamst  the  committee,  I  ad- 
mit that  their  conduct  might  have  been  such 
as  to  have  removed  tlie  greatest  part  of  them. 
It  was  on  this  account  tnat  I  appeared  before 
them,  though  I  was  advised  not  to  give  any 
sanction  to  their  proceedings,  and  that  I 
urged  them  on,  the  first  day  of  their  meeting, 
to  attend  to  the  extreme  delicacy  of  their  si- 
tuations ;  instead  of  which,  the  greater  part 
of  their  proceedings  have  still  been  more  ir- 
regular tnan  their  appointment. 

^  A  counsellor  nas  appeared  a^nst  me 
during  the  whole  procecaing,  of  which  I  had 
no  notice;  and  I  nad  no  idea  that  counsel 
would  have  been  brought  down  to  Greenwich 
Hospital  to  plead  against  me,  or  the  pensioners. 
The  secretary  and  solicitor  of  the  Hospital, 
who  are  both  complainants,  were  present,  and 
took  notes  throughout  the  whole,  and  Mr. 
Cooke,  the  clerk  of  the  committee,  is  in  the 
full  predicament,  against  whom  the  greatest 
part  of  the  Case  is  directed,  as  he  is  a  land- 
man,  and  now  lodged  in  the  wards  of  the  pen- 
sioners, though  his  place  does  not  entitle  him 
to  apartments  in  the  Hospital  by  establish- 
ment. The  rev.  Mr.  Cooke,  Mr.  Hicks,  and 
Mr.  Stuart,  were  generally  present,  though 
not  of  the  committee,  took  an  active  part  m 
tlie  proceedings,  and  seemed  determined  to 
shew  that  they  are  the  manadng  directors, 
whilst  tlic  door  was  carefully  closed  against 
those  to  whom  the  committee  had  any  objec- 
tion, and  every  person  called  by  me  ordered 
immediately  to  withdraw,  af^r  they  had  an- 
swered the  questions  proposed. 

'^  Mr.  Morgan,  the  counsel  against  me,  was 
permitted  to  point  out,  and  direct,  all  the  pro- 
ceedings of  tne  committee  ;  which  he  calcu- 
lated so  as  to  thwart  and  defeat  the  evidence, 
in  a  manner  which  I  was  by  no  means  aware 
of,  instead  of  investigating  the  grounds  of  the 
several  ghanres,  as  ordered  by  tlie  general 
court,  and  tokmg  the  Case  fairly  from  the  be- 
ginning to  the  end ; .  the  compkints  of  the  »&> 


veral  officers,  clerks,  and  others,  were  taken 
as  the  foundation  of  the  proceedings. 

'*  Mr.  Morgan  had  selected  several  passages 
from  different  parts  of  the  Case  and  Memorial, 
which  he  had  strune  together  in  an  uncon- 
nected manner,  under  the  head  of  charges 
agsunst  particular  persons,  all  of  whom  he  &e- 
auently  declared  to  be  his  clients.  And  I  was 
then  desired  to  prove  not  my  own  charges, 
but  Mr.  Morgan's;  many  of  these  passages  I 
had  no  idea  of  applying  m  the  manner  wnich 
Mr.  Morgan  did ;  and  others  were  matters  of 
opinion,  grounded  on  a  long  train  of  facts  and 
arguments,  which  were  n9t  enquired  into  by 
the  committee;  on  those  which  related  to 
private  characters,  it  was  found  that  the  opi- 
nions of  some  of  the  witnesses  were  of  such  a 
nature,  that  they  did  not  think  it  safe  to  de- 
clare them,  unless  compelled  by  an  oath. 
This  was  deemed  a  failure  of  proof,  though  it 
ought  to  be  taken  as  a  proof  tnat  the  powers 
of  tne  committee  were  not  sufficient  tor  the 
enquiiy. 

"Though  Mr.  Morgan's  clients  were  by 
his  contrivance  become  plaintiffs  in  the  en- 
ouiry,  yet  they  were  all  heard  as  evidence  for 
themselves  and  for  each  other. 

"  Notwithstanding  thev  were  so  much  in* 
terested,  particularly  the  landmen,  in  defeat- 
ing the  enquiry,  whilst  I  made  no  attempt  to 
avail  myselfof  my  own  testimony,  though  £ 
doubt  not  but  my  character  and  situation  will 
intitle  me  to  be  heard  with  attention  before 
any  proper  tribunal,  as  I  have  no  interest  in 
any  part  of  the  dispute,  but  the  interest 
of  the  Hospital.  Whenever  I  appealed  to  any 
of  the  complainants  on  things  which  are  ge- 
nerally known  in  the  House,  if  they  seemed 
inclined  to  answer,  they  were  stopt  by  Mr. 
Morgan,  who  very  frequently  declared,  that 
he  would  not  suner  his  clients  to  give  evi- 
dence against  themselves ;  an  artifice  which 
may  be  proper  for  the  counsel  of  a  prisoner 
at  the  Old  ^dley,  but  it  is  a  very  imfair  and 
suspicions  precaution  in  a  court  of  enquiry 
into  the  affairs  of  Greenwich  Hospital. 

"  When  any  of  the  evidence  went  in  the 
least  beyond  the  line  drawn  by  the  counsel, 
or  spoke  of  facts  which  were  charged,  but  not 
within  the  prescribed  limits,  they  were  told  it 
was  too  soon ;  and  if  evidence  after  presented, 
which  affected  the  same  person,  they  were 
told  it  was  too  late. 

"  This  mode  of  proceeding  was  more  per- 
plexinjg  to  me,  as  I  had  been  reflised  copies  of 
any  of^the  complaints  or  proceedings  against 
me,  by  the  general  court,  by  the  directors, 
and  by  the  committee, — as  there  was  no 
opening  or  explanation  given,  which  could  di* 
rect  me  to  the  passages  complained  of,  I  was- 
generally  at  a  loss  to  know  what  those  pas- 
sages were;  in  points  wherein  I  was  fully 
prepared, — my  evidence  were  usually  refused 
to  be  heard,  onpecially  if  ttu^y  were  pension* 
ers ;  of  this  there  a  great  many  instances  in 
the  notes  which  I  have  taken  of  the  proceed- 
ings I  and  amongst  the  rest^  is  the  refiisai  W 


257]  reipecfhig  ike  Royal  HosfiUd  at  Greeitaiich.        A.  D.  1778. 


[258 


hear  tlie  evidence  of  the  men  who  hap- 
peaed  to  be  then  on  gimrd,  which  was  pro- 
posed as  the  most  impmal  method  of  takmg 
the  leal  sense  of  the  pensioners  in  general^  on 
the  complaints  of  the  linen,  thoo^  thb  was 
first  proposed  by  Mr.  James. 

*  On  those  points  in  which  I  appeared  to 
be  the  most  fully  prepared,  the  cnarge  was 
geneimUy  declared  frivolous,  or  not  to  affect 
me  particular  person  who  had  complained  of 
it,  vdA  therefore  could  not  then  he  heard. 
But  in  all  other  cases,  if  the  most  pointed  evi- 
denoe  was  not  immediately  produced  when 
demanded,  the  clerk  was  ordmd  to  write  no 
proof;  and  nothine  afterwards  could  be  heard 
on  the  subject,  tnough  the  most  unexcep- 
tionable testimony  was  oiSered. 

**  Ml.  Charles  Lefevre,  who  was  at  sea,  at 
the  time  in  which  Mr.  Morgan  had  called  on, 
what  he  deemed  the  charges  against  the  rev. 
Mr.  Cooke  and  Mr.  &)dby,  though  he 
was  the  person  from  whom  I  had  received 
the  information  of  the  letter  written  by  Mr. 
Oo&y,  after  the  composition  with  the  but- 
dier;  and  also  the  declaration  of  the  rev. 
Mr.  Cooke,  in  the  Hospital,  concerning  the 
denunciation  of  lord  Sandwich  asainst  me, 
through  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  to  Mr.  Charles 
Lefevre,  is  now  sworn  to;  and  though  he  ap- 
peared at  the  last  meeting  of  the  committee, 
and  offered  his  evidence,  it  was  positively  re- 
Aised;  and  I  believe  that  botn  these  pas- 
sages in  the  Case,  now  stand  in  the  minutes 
ofthe  committee,  and  will  be  reported  to  you 
as  not  proved.  Many  other  of  the  racts 
charged  are  in  the  same  predicament ; 
amongst  others  which  have  not  been  proved 
iieforethe  committee,  is  the  great  nuisance 
in  three  capital  wards,  arising  from  the  sink 
in  lieutenant  Besson's  new  Kitchen^  which 
passes  through  them,  though  it  matenally  af- 
fects the  hodth  and  happiness  of  sixty  pen- 


This  every  man  in  the  several  wards 
is  ready  to  prove ;  but  the  committee  have 
fepatedly  refused  to  hear  them;  and  the 
brntswain,  who  was  waiting  to  eive  evidence 
on  the  nuisance  of  the  sain  sink,  was  com- 
plained of,  for  not  payine  proper  respect  to 
the  reverend  Mr.  Cooke,  who  was  continually 
passing  to  and  from  the  committee-room ;  for 
which  lie  was  turned  out  of  his  office,  though 
a  man  of  a  very  respectable  character.  This 
and  other  proceedings  of  the  like  kind,  ereatly 
intimidated  the  pensioners,  and  created  a  ge- 
neral opinion  amongst  them  and  the  nurses, 
that  they  would  be  punished  if  they  gave  evi- 
dence. Notwithstanding  which,  great  nunKi 
bers  of  them  appeared ;  and  I  believe  that 
they  are  still  ready  to  give  their  testimony, 
which  b  a  proof  of  their  int^rity  and  the 
Justness  of  their  comolaints. 

**  The  effects  of  tne  denunciation  of  lord 
Sandwich's  resentment,  by  his  chaplain,  on 
the  officers  of  the  house,  was  very  evident,  in 
the  cautions  manner  in  which  some  of  them 
gave  thdr  testimony  before  the  committee, 
on  those  points  which  they  had  been  accus- 

VOL.  XXL 


tomed  to  declare  their  sentiments  in  the 
strongest  terms,  and  the  most  public  manner. 
The  treatment  which  they  received  before  the 
committee  was  calculated  for  the  same  pur- 
pose :  an  old  and  respectable  officer  of  the 
house  was  most  crossly  insulted ;  and  another 
told  that  his  evidence  was  a  libel.  I  was  my> 
self  addressed  by  the  chaplain,  and  the  clerk 
of  the  works,  in  the  most  vulgar  terms  of 
abuse;  the  latter  of  whom  had  the  insolence 
to  reproach  the  qjival  officers  of  the  house,  as 
living  on  charity;  and  has  since  knocked 
down  a  disabled  officer  of  the  house,  with  his 
cane,  within  the  walls  of  the  Hospital :  whidi 
is  a  fresh  proof  of  the  want  of  discipline  and 
due  government  in  the  Hospital,  as  mentioned 
in  the  printed  Case. 

**  It  will  appear,  however,  hem  the  attesta^ 
tion  subjoinea  to  the  declaration  of  lieutenant 
Lefevre,  that  a  majori^  of  the  naval  officers 
resident  in  the  house,  have  given  the  fullest 
and  most  unreserved  attestation,  in  support  of 
my  character  and  conduct  in  the  Hospital; 
and  I  appeal,  gentlemen,  to  your  candia  con- 
siderations, whether  these  attestations,  which 
do  me  so  much  honour,  could  possibly  have 
been  given  imder  so  many  discouraging  cir- 
cumstances, but  from  a  conscientious  convic- 
tion of  the  truth  of  their  declaration.  The 
declaration  of  Mr.  Lefevre's  father  must  be 
considered  as  that  of  a  dying  man ;  as  he  was^ 
during  the  whole  sitting  of  the  committee, 
cdnfined  to  his  bed,  and  believed  to  be  in  great 
danger;  ;^et  when  this  paper  was  ofierra  to 
the  committee,  by  another  officer,  afler  I  had 
been  ordered  to  retire  Irom  the  committee,  it 
was  refused  to  be  heard,  and  his  offer  to  an- 
swer any  questions  from  the  committee  total- 
1 V  disreearded ;  by  which  I  was  deprived  of 
the  whole  of  his  evidence.  If  the  naval  offi- 
cers of  the  house,  who  thought  proper  to  join 
in  tlie  complaints  to  the  general  court,  against 
me  (though  they  could  have  heard  or  read  but 
a  small  part  of  the  printed  Case)  had  had  pro- 
per ideas  of  their  duty  as  naval  officers,  they 
would  have  felt  it  as  an  irresistable  duty  to 
give  the  strongest  support  to  the  cause,  in 
which  thfe  interests  of  the  navy,  and  the  sea- 
men under  ^eir  care,  was  so  materially  consi* 
dered. 

^<  One  of  those  officers  was  so  &r  from  ful- 
filling his  duty  as  a  guardian  of  the  pensioners, 
as  to  tell  the  committee  that  the  men  ]vvbrked 
in  copperas  grounds,  and  that  this  dirtied  and 
spoilea  their  linen,  rotted  their  shoes,  heir 
stockines,  and  their  breeches.  This  cause,  as- 
siened  by  captain  Maplesden,  was  afterwards 
fiuly  prove!  to  be  without  foundation  (see  the 
6th  oa^s  minutes),  which  fairly  demonstrates 
how  inimical  he  is  to  the  cause  of  the  pen- 
sioners, whom  it  is  his  duty  to  protect,  though 
he  was  thus  inadvertentlv^lrawn  in,  to  give 
evidence  on  the  wretched  state  of  the  linen> 
the  shoes,  and  the  stockings. 

**  With  others  of  those  officers  who  signed 
against  me,  I  have  had  frequent  disputes,  on 
their  attempting  to  take  quantities  of  the  pen- 

S 


259] 


18  GEORGE  III.         The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BailUe^         [260 


sioners'  broth,  which  they  claimed  as  a  privi- 
k^  and  contended  for  with  great  violence, 
even  at  the  council,  and  also  on  receiving  ale 
as  perquisites  from  the  brewer,  though  they 
have  no  right  to  it.  This  I  caused  to  be  stop- 
ped, as  I  apprehended  that  it  was  one  cause  of 
the  ^reat  complaints  about  the  beer  of  the 
pensioners. 

'^  These  officers,  for  whom  captain  Chads, 
though  the  youngest  officer  in  the  house,  un- 
dertook to  speak,  declared  before  the  commit- 
tee,   '  that  they  never  heard  of  any  com- 

*  plaints,  but  about  the  beer,  and  that  was  im- 

*  mediately  redressed,'  though  their  names  ap- 
pear to  several  minutes  of  council ;  copies  of 
which  were  sent  to  the  directors^  in  which 
there  are  various  complaints,  particularly 
about  the  shoes,  stockings,  and  other  necessa^ 
lies. 

^'  Captain  Chads  also  undertook  to  give  an 
high  oanegyric  on  the  excellent  moral  charac- 
ter or  the  reverend  Mr.  Cooke,  in  opposition 
to  the  account  of  his  conduct  which  I  had 
given  in  the  Case;  who  has  spoken  nearest 
the  truth,  on  this  delicate  subject,  may  be  a 
matter  of  future  contest;  but  there  has  been 
laid  before  sir  Charles  Hardy  ^e  governor,  a 
complaint  in  behalf  of  a  poor  bak^r  in  Green- 
wich, who  has  frequentry  decked,  that  the 
reverend  Mr.  Cooke  had  ordered  aquantity  of 
bread  from  him,  above  two  years  ago,  to  be 
distril)uted,  instead  of  money  collected  at  the 
sacrament,  amounting  to  4/.  If.  and  also  40s.  in 
silver  which  he  ordered  from  htm  at  the  same 
time,  neither  of  which  are  paid  for  yet;  and 
the  Hospital  is  under  the  disgraceful  imputa- 
lion  of  jpvins  bread  in  duurity,  and  running  in 
4ebt  wUh  the  baker.  The  committee  will 
probably  recollect  how  anxious  Mr.  Cooke 
.was,  that  he  should  have  full  credit  for  his  roar 
nagement  of  the  charities  in  the  Hospital ; 
IMuticularly  that  given  m  a  late  severe  wmter ; 
and  in  this  case,  the  baker  was  not  paid  till 
aix  months  afterwards,  as  he  the  baker  has 
averred. 

^  As  the  characters  of  the  several  persons 
who  were  called  by  me,  underwent  a  severe 
scrutiny  before  the  committee ;  and  as  I  have 
J)een  deprived  of  the  opportunity  of  stating 
these  facts  before  the  committee  in  return,  u 
is  unnecessary  to  oftr  any  apology  for  men- 
tioning them  here. 

**  Notwithstanding  the  most  unprecedented 
mode  of  conducting  this  enquiry,  every  fact 
charged,  which  has  been  enquired  into,  has 
been  fully  proved ;  and  generally  appeared  in 
»  stronger  liriit  than  has  been  chareed  in  the 
Cag^  particularly  the  linen  there  said  to  have 
decreased  in  size  and  goodness,  which  was 
proved  by  a  variety  of  positive  testimony,  and 
by  shirts,  sheets,  &c.  produced  before  the 
committee.  Yet,  though  this  complaint  was 
more  attended  to  than  any  others,  it  was  by 
no  means  sufficiently  investigated,  and  there 
b,  at  this  time,  a  deficiency  of  a  very  large 
•  «)uantity  of  linen,  which  is  allowed  by  the  es- 
tebliahufiat  of  the  Hospital. 


<'  But  the  facts  which  have  been  enquired 
into  make  a  very  small  part  of  those  which 
are  charged  in  the  printeo  Case. 

''The  great  charge,  that  landmen  have 
been  obtruded  into  the  Hos{Htal  contrary  to 
charter,  to  the  establishment  of  the  founder^ 
and  hisYoyal  successors,  to  the  will  of  the  nu- 
merous benefactors,  and  to  the  nature  and 
end  of  the  institution,  the  committee  have  po- 
tively  and  repeatedly  refused  to  enquire  into, 
though  this  is  the  parent  of  nearly  all  the 
grievances  complained  of.  It  was  to  obtain  a 
report  on  this  artide  that  I  attended  the  com* 
mittee,  notwithstanding  the  unworthy  treaU 
ment  I  received,  and  compared  with  this,  I 
feel  litUe  anxiety  about  the  rest  of  the  chams  ; 
as  I  am  convinced,  that  if  this  was  remeoied; 
the  greater  part  of  them  would  of  themselves 
fall  to  the  groimd. 

^'  No  enquiry  was  made  into  the  charges  on 
the  conduct  of'^the  several  officers  and  under* 
9fficers  now  in  the  Hospital,  who  were  coiw 
cemed  in  the  improper  management  of  the 
beer,  in  receipt  of  the  bull  beef,  and  other 
transactions  ol  the  like  fraudulent  kind ;  but 
several  of  them  seemed  inclined  before  the 
committee,  to  dispute  even  the  verdict  of  tiw 
jury ;  as  they  prooably  would,  the  justness  of 
the  butcher's  man,  who  was  transported.  No 
enquiiy  has  been  made  into  the  oad  state  oT 
the  shoes,  which  was  so  fully  proved  before 
the  council,  and  which  are  worse  in  eveiy  Te» 
spect  than  those  served  ui  common  work* 
houses ;  the  stockings,  which  are  in  still  a 
worse  state,  have  also  not  been  enquired  into; 
and  are  totally  incapable  of  defence  or  pallia^ 
tion. 

^  The  whole  business  of  the  charity  stock, 
in  which  is  involved  so  many  abuses,  has  not 
been  taken  the  least  notice  of  by  the  commit 
tee.  tliough  charged  at  length  in  the  Case;, 
ana  though  the  drunkenness  so  frequently 
imputed,  as  a  reason  for  treating  the  pei>- 
sioners  with  contempt,  is  occasioned  by  im- 
properly giving  so  many  of  them  money  u^ 
stead  01  provisions. 

*'  The  nnproper  admission  and  treatment  of 
the  boys,  and  every  other  circumstance  relat- 
ing  to  them,  were  also  neglected.  The  evi- 
dence which  I  offisred,  to  prove  the  mischieft 
and  terrors  to  which  the  bund  and  feeble  men 
are  subjected,  by  the  removal  of  the  posts  and 
rails,  were  all  refused  to  be  heard. 

*'  Of  the  number  of  officers'  widows  now 
serving  in  the  mean  capacity  of  common 
nurses,  under  spinsters  who  have  no  claim  to 
the  establishment,  no  notice  has  been  taken. 

"  Many  of  the  matters  which  have  been 
mentioned,  were  very  slighUy  investisited ; 
as  the  question,  whether  the  Hospital  is  nnish^- 
cd  or  not ;  and  nothing  has  been  ofiered  on 
the  subject,  except  the  extravagant  idea  of  the 
clerk  of  the  works,  that  the  Derwentwater  es* 
Ute  was  granted  in  perpetuity  to  finish  the 
building.  The  several  circumstances  relating 
to  the  ousting  the  pensioners ;  and  the  en- 
croachments by  badfiRni  in  diffsrent  pacH 


i6I]        retpectmg  the  Royal  HtfiUA  at  Greenuidi.        A.  D.  1778^ 


t26f 


^  the  Hospital;  were  veiy  alightly  enquired  | 

IDtO. 

^  The  bad  state  of  the  infirmary  the  com- 
■uttee  refused  to  view;  and  have  heard  no 
evidence  but  that  of  Mr.  Myhie;  which  can 
le  fully  controverted. 

"The matter  of  the  Painted-hall  was 
afightly  investigatedy  and  appeared  as  stated 
in  the  printed  Case.  But  haa  the  committee 
▼isted  it  themselves,  they  must  have  seen 
■nny  defects  which  were  never  observed  be- 
fore ;  and  it  is  now  doubtful  whether  it  is  not 
BOW  injured  by  the  great  expence  attending 
tiie  cleaning  of  it. 

•^Tlie  many  inconveniences  and  losses 
which  have  happened  to  the  Hospital,  from 
the  very  slight  manner  of  examining  and  pass- 
ing the  accounts  by  the  directors ;  particular- 
"hj  the  great  loss  in  the  case  of  Mr.  £llis, 
R€m  the  meffectual  checks  on  the  steward's 
office;  and  the  large  sums  wliichare  annually 
expended  under  the  head  of  necessary  works, 
from  the  reports  of  the  clerk  of  the  works, 
with  very  uttle  examination  or  controul. 
These,  with  many  others,  most  material  ob- 
jects of  enquiry  (which  may  hereafter  be  more 
carefully  enumerated)  were  all  referred  to  the 
committee  by  the  general  court;  but  have 
either  not  been  investigated,  or  the  evidence 
which'was  offered,,  refused  to  be  heard.  And 
en  many  of  them  the  committee  might  have 
had  the  best  information  and  evidence,  by 
examining  the  matters  themselves,  which  they 
declined  to  do. 

*•  But  the  great  finesse  by  which  every  pur- 
pose of  full  and  fair  enquiry  has  been  finally 
defeated  before  the  committee,  has  been,  that 
on  many  occasions,  when  I  strongly  pressed 
that  my  evidence  might  be  heard^  I  was  told 
by  Mr.  Cust,  the  chairman,  that  it  was  not 
proper  now,  but  that  when  Mr.  Morgan  had 
gone  through  the  charges  against  his  clients, 
whatever  matter  I  should  then  declare  had 
not  been  investi^ted,  or  properly  enquired 
into,  should  be  fully  heard  under  the  general 
bead  of  charges  against  the  directors :  this 
promise^  Mr.  Cust  particularly  repeated,  when 
the  gowns  of  the  purses  were  shewn  to  him ; 
which  complaint  was  so  evidently  just,  that  he 
appeared  to  think  it  would  not  be  disputed. 
And  he  very  frequently  declared  that  the 
committee  could  not  fimsh  their  enquiries  for 
several  months. 

**  But  on  the  day  in  which  the  charges  se- 
lected by  Mr.  Morgan  were  to  be  finished, 
Mr.  Cust  did  not  attend,  and  another  chair- 
man appeared,  who  behaved  in  the  most  un- 
warrantable and  arbitrary  manner ;  refused  to 
hear  evidence  on  almost  every  subject ;  treat- 
ed every  attempt  to  impeach  the  conduct  ot 
the  directors  as  a  personal  insult,  which  he 
resented  with  great  violence;  and  decided 
v^oa  several  suojects  of  debate  without  at- 
tends to  any  other  authorities  or  arguments 
than  his  own,  which  generally  was,^  *'  that 
there  were  different  opimons  about  the  matter, 
and  that  was  aU  he  could  learn  about  it.'' 


"  I  was  at  len^h  ordered  to  withdraw; 
after  which  the  officers  of  the  council,  whose 
evidence  had  been  finished,  and  they  had- 
withdrawn,  were  called  in  again,  and  the  exa- 
mination into  the  complaints  against  me  re- 
sumed in  my  absence. 

"  On  the  breaking  up  of  the  meetiifg,  I  was- 
informed  that  the  next  meeting  would  be  to 
examine  into  the  charges  against  the  direc-^ 
tors ;  and  that  they  should  want  nobody  but 
themselves. 

**•  Thus,  all  the  promises  of  Mr.  Oust,  ancf 
the  expectation,  which  had  prevented  me 
firom  making  any  objections  in  the  course  of 
the  enquiry,  were  defeated. 

"  I  now  find  that  the  task « which  I  have" 
undertaken,  to  enumerate  the  several  objec- 
tions to  the  conduct  of  the  committee,  much 
too  great  to  be  effected  in  this  letter ;  as  it 
reqmres  an  enumeration  of  the  whole,  and 
appears  much  stronger  in  the  proceedings 
taken  at  length,  than  in  this  abstract  of  them. 
As  I  have  laid  a  full  account  of  the  proceed- 
ings before  counsel,  I  must  wait  for  their  opi- 
nion and  assistance.  But  I  thought  I  should 
have  been  inexcusable  to  myself,  to  the  pen- 
sioners, and  to  this  court,  if  I  did  not  in^ke  an 
attempt  (however  slender  my  hopes  may  bej 
to  induce  you  to  review  and  consider  well  all 
your  proceedings  against  me,  in  this  stage  of 
the  business. 

''  It  is  necessary,  my  lords  and  gentlemen^ 
for  your  Own  honour  and  reputation,  as  well 
as  for  the  cause  of  truth  ana  justice,  and  the 
welfare  of  the  pensioners  under  your  care,  that 
you  should  review  the  proceedings  in  the  most 
dispassionate  manner.  I  cannot  yet  suppose 
but  there  are  here  several  gentlemen  who  will 
not  submit  to  become  instruments  of  oppres- 
sion, and  that  they  will  declare  the  committee 
was  improperly  appointed  for  the  iiivesti^atioA 
of  tnith,  (on  which  ever  side  it  is)  or  tor  thfe 
clearing  the  characters  of  the  several  parties 
— that  the  proceedings  were  irregular  and  ar- 
bitrary; and  that  it  broke  up  m  a  manner 
which  will  not  do  honour  to  any  of  those  con- 
cerned in  it. 

**  Attempts  may  be  made  to  hold  me  out  to 
all  future  officers  of  the  House,  who  shall  dare  > 
to  suppose  that  there  are  abuses  in  Greenwich 
Hospital — and  I  may  suffer  for  having  made 
those  complaints — ^but  I  will  not  patiently 
submit  to  oppression.  I  must  somewhere  be 
fairly  heara ;  and  as  the  whole  matter  is  now 
subjttdice ;  iind  as  I  have  a  great  number  of 
affidavits  of  men  of  character,  ready  to  pro- 
duce and  oppose  lo  the  volumes  sworn  against 
me  in  the  King's-bench,  by  the  parties  who 
have  moved  for  informations,  I  trust,  my  con- 
duct will  not  be  prejudiced  by  the  general 
court ;  for  I  never  had  the  least  wish  to  at- 
tract the  attention  of  any  of  the  public  on  the 
affairs  of  tlie  Hospital,  if  I  could  possibly  avoid 
it;  and  as  a  faithfiil  servant  to  his  majesty,  I 
am  particularly  desirous  of  avo'ding  every 
thing  which  may  tend  to  disturb  the  minds  of 
the  seamen  at  so  critipal  a  moment  as  the 


J6S] 


18  GEORGE  UL  The  Case  of  Captain  Thonuu  Baiaiet         [264 


present;  I  therefore  anxioii^  wish  to  gain 
the  attentioik  of  the  court,  so  &r  as  may  be 
necessary  to  put  a  stop  to  the  priiicipal  evils 
complained  of  in  the  management  of  the  Hos- 
pital, which  disturbs  the  comfort  and  happi- 
ness of  the  pensioners,  as  there  may  then  he 
no  nec^sity  for  pursuing  the  retrospective 
Tiew  of  the  various  causes  any  further. 

**  I  well  know  the  prejudices  which  arc  en- 
tertained against  me ;  I  have  told  truths  of  a 
very  unpleasant  nature;  and  I  have  stated 
facts,  wnich  are  considered  as  reflections  by 
those  to  whom  I  profess  personal  esteem; 
and  others  to  whom  I  owe  personal  obliga-' 
tions.  But  when  I  made  this  attempt,  to  ob- 
tain a  reformation  of  all  the  abuses  in  Green- 
wich Hospital,  and  a  thorough  investigation 
of  the  several  causes,  in  order  to  prevent  them 
for  the  future,  I  thought  it  my  duty  to  tell  the 
truth,  and  the  whole  truth,  or  that  I  should 
otherwise  beti^v  the  cause  which  I  meant  to 
support.  If  I  nave  erred^  it  has  been  on  the 
side  of  a  very  sincere  zeid ;  and  if  I  have  been 
imprudent,  it  has  been  principally  at  my  own 
hazard ;  but  I  can  solemnly  assure  you,  gen- 
tlemen, that  I  had  not  the  smallest  personal 
interest  or  view  in  any  of  the  comphunts 
which  I  have  laid  before  the  general  court ; 
and  that  there  are  none  of  them  but  what  I 
thought  it  my  indispensible  duty  to  make,  in 
behalf  of  a  body  of  men  who  blave  deserved 
well  of  their  country. — ^I  have  the  honour  to 
he,  with  great  respect,  my  lords  and  gentle- 
men, your  most  obedient  and  most  humble 
servant,  Thomas  Baillis/' 

*'  P.  S.  I  must  now  beg  leave  earnestly  to 
repeat  my  former  application,  to  be  furnished, 
by  order  of  the  court,  not  only  with  copies  of 
the  several  charees  retorted  upon  me,  by  the 
directors  of  the  Hospital,  and  by  the  several 
officers  of  the  house,  and  of  the  clerks,  turn- 
cock, labourers,  6lc,  who  have  been  urged  to 
sign  complaints  against  me,  to  the  board  of 
Admiralty,  and  to  the  general  court;  and  like- 
wise that  you  will  onler  me  to  be  furnished 
with  copies  of  all  such  letters  to  the  directors, 
from  several  officers  of  the  infinnary,  com- 
plaining of  the  defective  state  of  the  wood 
work  in  their  apartments  ;  and  also  copies  of 
all  such  minutes  or  proceedings  of  the  direc- 
tors, as  myself  or  counsel  may  uiink  necessary 
for  my  defence,  in  his  mqiesty's  court  of 
King's-bench.  which  I  trust  will  not  be  revised 
me;  especially  as  the  contracting  butcher  was 
furnished  by  the  Hospital  with  all  such  papers 
as  were  thought  by  bun  and  his  counsel  to  be 
necessary  to  strenc:then  his  defence  against 
the  Hospital,  in  the  action  brought  against 
him,  in  the  court  of  King's-bencn,  for  the 
several  breaches  of  his  contract,  in  supplying 
the  poor  pensioners  with  the  flesh  of  buUs  ana 
bull  stags,  instead  of  good  fat  ox  beef,  agree- 
able to  contract 

**  Thomas  Baillie." 

'*  Royal  Hospital  for  Seamen,  at  Greenwich, 
August  12, 1779." 


Who  do  you  refer  to,  in  that  accoant,  tha^ 
struck  the  officer  ?-— The  clerk  of  the  works. 

What  is  the  name  of  the  boatswain  that  is 
turned  out? — ^Boatswain  Goi^h;  it  does  not 
appear  in  the  minutes  of  the  House,  that  ha 
was  turned  out  for  that  offence ;  but  that  was 
the  ground  of  his  dismission,  though  he  had 
never  been  complained  of  in  the  course  of 
eight  years  before. 

Whom  did  you  refer  to,  that  struck  the 
officer  ?  And  what  is  his  name  ? — ^Mr.  Mylne^ 
the  clerk  of  the  works;  I  believe  it  was  be- 
cause he  gave  a  favourable  evidence  on  my 
account.  Mr.  Morgan  said  his  evidence  vns 
a  libel.  I  have  in  my  hand  the  declaration  of 
lieutenant  Lefevre,  which  he  signed  on  his 
death-bed,  that  was  refused  to  be  read  by  tli» 
committee.  I  beg  to  observe,  that  the  present 
lieutenant-governor  took  a  very  active  part  in 
complaining  against  me,  though  he  aauA  not 
seen  the  pnnted  Case  beforehand,  except  for  a 
short  time.  Whenever  I  produced  a  witness 
before  the  committee  of  directors,  the  council 
books  were  searched,  to  look  into  their  cha^ 
racters  for  a  number  of  years  back,  before 
they  were  permitted  to  give  evidence.  I  must 
beg  leave  to  observe,  1  had  all  the  depositions 
in  my  hand  that  were  prepared  for  my  de- 
fence, in  the  court  of  King's-bench,  I  tendered 
them  to  tiie  general  court ;  they  were  refused^ 
and  the  answer  was,  they  were  not  come '  to 
hear  evidence  upon  oath,  but  to  receive  the 
report  of  the  committee ;  and  many  papers 
which  I  had  applied  for,  to  the  general  court 
and  board  of  directors,  were  refused  to  me  ; 
though  the  contracting  butcher  was  furnished 
with  every  thing  he  thought  necessary  for  his 
defence,  in  the  action  instituted  against  him 
for  fraud. 

Whether  you  were  ever  called  upon,  by  that 
committee  of  directors,  to  prove  your  book  ? — 
There  is  a  letter  on  your  lordships'  table, 
which  I  wrote  to  the  committee  of  directors^ 
as  they  were  to  investigate  the  grounds  of  the 
several  complaints  made  by  me,  that  I  might 
be  permitted  to  prove  them,  in  the  order  in 
which  ihey  were  in  the  printed  Case. 

Did  you  desire  to  prove  your  book  befbie 
that  committee  ? — ^I  desired  to  prove  the  Case,. 
from  the  beginning  to  the  end,  before  the 
committee. 

Did  they  grant  that  request? — They  did 
not;  for  my  witnesses  were  refused  to  ba 
heard ;  where  they  thought  there  was  matter 
to  be  collected  for  the  King's-bench,  they 
were  inclined  to  go  on,  they  seemed  to  regard 
nothing  else. 

You  were  prevented  in  proving  the  nounds 
of  your  complaint,  by  that  committee? — ^In  a 
vanetv  of  instances. 

Did  you  desire  to  call  witnesses  that  were 
refused?— Yes,  Mr.  Charles  Lefevre;  wheo 
he  was  called  into  the  room,  the  rev.  Mr, 
Cooke  was  fHghtened ;  he  thou^t  he  was  at 
sea;  he  started  up,  objected  to  nis  evidence^ 
and  Mr.  Lefevre  was  ordered  oit  of  th* 
room. 


S65]        retpedhg  ihe  Roj^ 


ai  Gremnoich.        A.  D.  1778. 


[S69f 


Who  wu  dttirman  at  that  time?— Mr. 
Bttker;  it  was  the  last  day  of  the  enquiry. 

You  wdre  not  sufiered  to  produce  hiin  as  a 
witness  ? — I  was  not ;  and  fus  fother's  dechir- 
ntum  on  his  death-bed  was  refused  to  be 
bcaid.  Captun  Allwricht  carried  it  a  second 
time,  and  it  was  refused.  There  were  a  num- 
ber of  blind  men  ready  to  give  evidence ;  it 
was  said  the  labouring  men  wore  out  their 
flboes  and  stockings  at  hard  labour;  I  thought 
the  hiiiid  men  proper  evidence^  as  there 
ooaid  not  be  that  objection  to  them ;  they  at- 
tended seven  days,  their  evidence  was  at  last 
lefusod. 

You  ofiiered  to  call  them,  and  they  were  r^ 
fused? — Yes ;  in  a  variety  of  instances,  boat- 
swain Cough's  was  also  refused ;  the  whole 
WIS  conducted  as  Mr.  Morgan  thought  pro- 
per. Mr.  Cost  told  me  I  should  b«  heard 
whoi  he  had  done;  but  the  witnesses  were 
never  heard. 

Mr.  Gust  told  you,  as  chairman,  that  you 
should  be  heard  when  Mr.  Morgan  was  done  ? 
-Yes. 

Did  you  remind  the  court  of  his  promise  ? 
—Yes;  there  was  not  the  least  attention  paid 
to  it 

When  the  enquiry  commenced,  did  you 
kid  it,  to  prove  your  Case  ?  Or  did  Mr.  Mor- 
^  beein  it  with  any  thing  else  ?— Mr.  Mor- 
gui  ha3  it  prepared  and  drawn  out  into  a  book, 
and  went  on  as  he  pleased ;  sometimes  he 
opened  my  Case  at  the  beginning,  sometimes 
Jabe  middle  and  where  he  pleased.  I  asked 
who  he  was?  Thev  said  a  counsellor^  broujght 
down  there  to  lead  the  enquiry  and  direct  it. 

Who  told  ;^ou  so  ?^Mr.  Cust  said  so ;  no- 
body contradicted  it. 

You  objected  to  it  ? — ^Yes ;  there  was  a  gen- 
tieman  at  my  house ;  I  desired  he  might  be 
present,  which  was  granted ;  but  this  man  at 
my  elbow,  the  short-hand  writer,  came  down 
to  take  minutes ;  he  was  turned  out 

Did  the  court  call  first  upK>n  you,  or  Mr. 
Moivan,  to  examine  the  witnesses? — They 
wooU  read  a  passage,  and  say  to  me,  Prove 
that 

Wben  a  witness  was  called,  who  was  first 
to  eiamine  him,  you  or  Mr.  Morgan  ? — There 
was  nothing  but  a  scene  of  confiuion ;  when 
1  asked  a  question  it  was  generally  objected  to. 

When  a  witness  was  called^  was  Mr.  Mor- 
gan called  upon  first  to  escamme  that  witness, 
or  you  ? — ^I  cannot  say  as  to  that. 

Was  your  book  regularlv  read  through  ? — 
Not  a  word  of  it ;  onfy  such  passages  as  they 
Hjoiffiht  fit  to  pitch  upon. 

I  oenre  to  ask,  if  he  recollects,  what  reasons 
were  ^ven  for  turning  Lefevre  out  of  the 
room? — ^I  know  of  no  other  reason  than  that 
the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  raot  up  and  objected  to 
his  evidence ;  he  said  ne  had  been  under  exa- 

imDati<Mi  before,  and  he  was  not  to  be  ad- 

nutted  afterwards ;  though,  on  a  similar  case, 

Mr.  Myhie  {iroduced  a  witness,  a  Mr.  Adams. 

who  gave  evidence,  thouzh,  I  believe,  he  had 

never  seen  tbainfinnaryDefore;  he  sud  he 


could  not  attend  another  day,  and  his  evidence 
was  admitted  on  several  pomts. 

Had  Lefevre  been  examined  before  ? — He 
had  not  been  examined,  he  having  been  at 
sea ;  he  was  very  abruptly  turned  out  of  the 
room. 

You  said  Mr.  Cooke  went  about  the  Hos- 
pital encouraging  people  to  sign  complaints 
against  you ;  now  uo  you  know  that  ?— I  was 
told  so  by  some  of  the  people  that  refused  *to 
sign  it. 

You  said  a  Mr.  Morean,  a  lawyer,  was  em* 
ployed  against  you  ? — ^i  es. 

Had  you  any  lawyer? — ^No;  nw  was  I  in- 
formed of  their  intention. 

Who  was  that  ^tleman  that  was  at  your 
house  ? — ^A  clerk  m  the  stamp-office. 

He  never  practised  the  law?-— No ;  I  believe 

fkOX, 

How4o  you  know  that  captain  Maplesden 
had  never  read  your  book,  when  he  signed 
the  paper? — There  were  very  few  delivered 
out;  I  oelieve  the  Case  that  was  produced  aa 
the  council  of  Greenwich  Hospital^  was  the 
very  Case  I  delivered  to  lord  Sandwich ;  cap* 
tain  Maplesden  produced  it;  I  believe  the 
rev.  Mr.  Cooke  g^ve  it  to  him :  how  he,  Mr. 
Cooke,  came  by  it,  I  cannot  tell.  Maplesden 
took  it  from  under  his  coat,  and  said  it  was  a 
book  lately  pubUshed  by  the  lieutenant  go- 
vernor ;  I  was  surprised  to  see,  unknown  te 
me,  that  a  full  council  of  the  officers  of  the 
house  had  been  got  together,  and  captain  Ma- 
plesden attempted  to  select  passages  out  of 
my  book  that  were  obnoidous  to  tne  officers 
ofAirreenwich  Hospital ;  but  he  could  not 

How  do  you  know  that  captain  Maplesden 
had  not  seen  the  book  but  a  few  minutes  be- 
fore he  signed  the  paper  ? — ^I  believe  so,  be- 
cause he  could  not  pitch  upon  a  passage  ob- 
noxious to  the  naval  officers  of  that  Hospital ; 
a^r  that  Mr.  Cooke  took  it,  and  he  could  not 
find  a  passage ;  then  Mr.  Godby  took  it,  and 
pitchea  upon  a  passage  about  removing  a  sink 
at  his  door. 

You  have  said  that  several  persons  were 
stirred  up  against  you,  how  do  you  know  that? 
— From  what  the  people  told  me. 

You  said  that  the  boatswam  was  turned  out 
for  not  pulling  his  hat  off  to  the  rev.  Mr. 
Cooke  ?— I  si^  I  verily  believed,  that  that 
was  the  man's  ofience. 

What  reason  have  you  to  believe  that? 
You  said  that  was  the  only  reason  of  his  being 
turned  out,  what  did  you  ground  your  judg- 
ment upon? — ^I  know  this  man  was  several 
days  waiting  to  give  evidence ;  I  attempted 
to  get  him  in,  Mr.  Cooke  saw  him  there ;  be 
would  not  be  turned  awav  firom  siving  evi- 
dence ;  as  he  was  waiting,  he  asked  a  brother 
boatswain  why  he  pulledhis  hat  off  so  often 
to  Mr.  Cooke,  and  said,  "  I  pulled  my  hat  off 
at  first,  and  I  don't  choose  to  repeat  it;'' 
upon  that  this  man  was  complained  of  by  Mr. 
Cooke,  to  captiun  Chads,  ana  he  put  him  on 
tiie  complaint-book.  He  came  to  me  and 
told  lus  story;  I  advised  the  man  to  go  ta 


96r] 


IS^GEORGE  m.  The  Case  of  Captain  Tkanuu  BaUSe^         [S68 


Ifo.  Cooke,  and  ask  his  pardon  for  any  offence  I 
be  had  given  him ;  he  said.  No,  he  vfoa\d 
Qot  forgive  him,  he  should  he  tried  by  the 
council  of  the  house.  I  believe  that  intimi- 
dated the  pensioners  very  much ;  the  com- 
mittee were  then  sitting. 

Was  the  complaint  tor  not  pulling  his  hat 
off? — ^That  is  not  the  complaint  put  down, 
but  that  is  the  ground  of  it. 

Have  you  heard  any  other  complaint? — 
Only  I  believe  fur  not  paying  proper  respect 
to  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke.  There  is  not  a  more 
respectable  character  of  a  seaman  in  Green- 
wich Hospital,  or  in  England,  than  this  poor 
man. 

•  You  say  there  was  encouragement  given  or 
offered  to  persons  that  would  sign  a  paper 
against  you;  how  do  you  know  that? — ^I 
know  that  Mr.  Cooke  went  about  telling  the 
officers,  that  the  book  was  obnoxious  to  my 
lord  Sandwich  and  the  directors. 

That  is  not  an  answer  to  the  question ;  you 
8aid,  in  your  evidence,  that  enoouraeements 
were  given  to  the  people  that  would  sign  a 
paper  against  you ;  I  want' to  know  how  you 
know  that? — ^The  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  went  to 
lieutenant  Gordon,  and  said,  Here  is  a  letter 
abusing  lord  Sandwich ;  the  man  himself  told 
me  of  It. 

That  is  not  evidence  ? — ^I  cannot  have  other 
evidence ;  Mr.  Cooke  would  not  tell  me  that 
himself. 

I  want  you  to  confine  yourself  to  things  of 
your  own  knowledge. — ^I  can  tell  your  lordships 
one  very  strong  instance  of  preferment  which 
has  been  given  since,  and  probably  might 
have  been  offered  before ;  there  is  one  Cook, 
(not  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke)  clerk  to  the  late 
committee ;  that  man,  since  this,  (for  his  good 
flervices  upon  that  occasion.  I  cannot  conceive 
it  was  for  any  thing  else)  his  son.  who  had 
been  at  sea  two  years  and  an  half,  or  three 
years  at  most,  upon  coming  home  he  was 
made  a  lieutenant. 

The  Earl  of  Sandzoich,  Does  captain  Baillie 
say  this  man  had  been  but  three  years  at  sea, 
and  was  made  a  lieutenant;  what  is  his 
name  ? — A,    Cook. 

Had  he  been  but  three  years  at  sea  ? — He 
was  at  school  in  Greenwich ;  he  might  be  put 
on  the  books  of  a  yacht,  but  that  is  not  ac- 
tually being  at  sea,  nor  fs  h*  above  17  years 
of  age,  though  the  instructions  say  they  shall 
be  20  years  of  age.  My  lords,  there  are  other 
instances  of  favours  granted  to  people  who 
complained  against  me. 

How  do  you  know  that  this  man's  bemg 
made  a  lieutenant,  was  as  a  j^tification  to 
Cook  for  his  services  in  this  affiiir  of  the 
Hospital  ? — Because  I  verily  believe  no  such 
irregular  appointment  would  otherwise  have 
taken  place. 

How  do  you  know  that  this  was  an  irregu- 
lar appointment? — Because  in  40  years  ser- 
vice, I  never  knew  an  instance  before  of  a 
person  who  had  been  only  three  years  actually 
mt  sea  being  appointed  to  a  lieutenancy ;  be- 


sides, he  is  not  above  17  years  of  age,  and  he 
oueht  to  be  20 ;  he  is  but  17  or  18  at  the  out- 
sit. I  beg  to  say,  I  am  now  upon  my  oath^ 
I  don't  wish  to  conceal  one  circumstance  of 
my  conduct  in  Greenwich  Hospital. 

[Captain  Baillie  withdrew.} 

Mr.  Cosoley  called  in. 

I  beg  to  know  what  employment  you  astt^ 
in  ? — I  am  clerk  to  the  stamp-office. . 

What  trade  are  you  ? — I  am  a  stationer. 

Were  you  ever  bred  to  the  law  ? — ^I  never 
was  at  the  bar;  I  had  never  any  kmd  of 
knowledge  of  the  law  but  what  was  acci* 
dental. 

Inform  the  House  whether  you  attended 
the  committee  of  enquiry  at  Greenwich  Hos> 
pital,  that  were  to  enquire  into  captain.  Bai)^ 
lie's  complaint? — ^I  did. 

What  day? — ^It  is  so  great  a  distance  oS 
time  I  cannot  remember  the  dates  ^  I  have 
minutes  I  can  refresh  my  memory  with  [loo^a 
at  his  minutes]  it  was  the  18th  of  April,  1778. 

Was  that  the  first  day  the  committee  met  ^ 
— ^It  was  the  first  day. 

Give  an  account  of  the  proceedings  of  that 
committee.— They  are  exceedingly  volumi- 
nous ;  I  could  be  glad  to  answer  any  pointed 
question. 

Did  the  committee  first  call  upon  captaixi 
BailUe  to  make  good  the  charges  in  his  bookf 
— At  the  first  opening  of  the  committee,  there 
were  very  long  and  disagreeable  altercations  \. 
there  was  a  deal  of  personal  animosity  to  cap* 
tain  Baillie ;  the  matter  was  very  much  dis- 
puted in  what  manner  they  should  eo  on; 
captain  Baillie  produced  a  letter,  and  read^ 
directing  in  whiat  manner  he  thought  they 
should  proceed ;  and  it  was  proposed  to  the 
committee,  either  to  take  the  Case  fairly  from, 
the  beginning  to  the  end,  or  to  take  that 
letter,  in  which  I  believe  there  were  eighteen 
charges  drawn  up.  The  chairman  s^d.  We 
will  direct  the  enquiry  in  what  manner  we 
think  proper,  and  desired  Mr.  Morgan  to  ga 
on;  Mr.  Morgan  produced  a  number  of 
charges. 

Did  they  determine  that  tliey  would  pro- 
ceed in  eitiicr  of  those  ways? — The  only  an- 
swer we  had  was,  we  will  not  take  direction, 
from  you,  we  will  conduct  it  in  what  manner 
we  think  proper  •  any  thing  proposed  by  cap- 
tain Bailhe  was  immediately  rejected. 
Who  began  the  enquiry  ? — Mr.  Morgan. 

What  did  they  begin  with?— The  first  en- 
quiry was  under  a  number  of  chaiges  Mr. 
Morgan  had  strung  together,  which  he  called- 
charges  against  the  surveyor.  Mr.  Morgan 
called  himself  counsel  there,  in  consequence 
of  a  number  of  complaints  made  at  the  Ad- 
miralty against  captam  Baillie ;  that  the  com- 
plaints at  the  Aamiralty  were  the  ground  of 
the  proceedings. 

When  Mr.  Morgan  said  he  had  collected 
charges  a^inst.  captain  Baillie,  were  any  co- 
pies of  those  charges  delivered  to  captain 
Baillie  ?^No;    he  did  afterwards   let  the 


fBS]         rapec&ig  the  Royal  HotpUtd  at  Greemath.        A.  D.  1778, 


P7« 


Dimes  ofthe  persons  be  taken  down.  Copies 
of  tbe  compiamls  agunst  captain  Bdillie  were 
fieqoently  reauesm  by  captain  BailHe,  but 
always  refiisea. 

Dtd  they  proceed  on  cajptain  Baillie^s  com- 
pkints  as  conducted  by  himself,  or  on  com- 
pkuols  against  captain  Baillie,  or  captain 
BailUe's  complaints  taken  and  conducted  by 
Mr.  Morgan  ? — There  were  continual  disputes 
ir^  Mr.  Moi^an  and  captain  BaiUie  on  the 
manner  in  which  he  earned  it  on ;  he  col- 
lected those  ]^sages  he  thought  most  advan- 
tagBoos  to  his  dtents ;  the^  were  generally 
those  ag^vating  expressions  that  they 
tboi^ht  might  found  an  action  in  the  KingV 
bencA ;  the  question,  whether  the  pensioners 
were  well  fed,  orwhether  landmen  were  there. 
Has  no  part  of  the  enquiry  at  all. 

The  nrst  thing  they  called  a  charge  against 
the  sarveyoT;  did  Mr.  Morgan  state  what 
that  charge  was? — ^No;  he  turned,  as  far  as 
my  memory  goes,  to  pa^  9,  and  said.  Prove 
ikal ;  captain  BailUe  said,  "  I  did  not  know 
what  you  was  going  to  enquire  on,  if  you  will 
,  permit  me  either  to  follow  the  order  of  the 
nook,  or  the  letter  which  he  had  drawn  up  by 
the  advice  of  counsel ;  ih  that  case  he  would 
take  care  the  witnesses  should  be  read^  when 
caDed  upon,  but  that  it  was  impossible  for 
tarn  to  be  provided  for  what  Mr.  Morgan 
might  ask  nim;"  and  wherever  we  were 
pret^  well  prepared^  that  was  not  called  for. 

Did  that  irrc^ulant^  continue  ? — ^Yes,  it  en- 
creased  at  the  conclusion.  The  evidence  in  a 
|;reat  vaiie^  of  cases  was  refused ;  the  first 
mstance  was  the  business  of  the  infirmary. 
Captain  Baillie  was  astonished  that  they 
should  dispute  the  account  of  the  infirmary. 
I  believe  the  officers  of  the  infirmaxy  had 
made  complaints  of  their  apartments ;  Mr. 
Mylne  acknowledged  he  had  those  letters*  in 
his  pocket ;  captam  Baillie  desired  those  let- 
ters m^ht  be  produced;  Mr.  Morgan  said,  I 
won't  suffer  my  clients  to  produce  evidence 
against  themselves ;  the  matter  was  pressed 
&  the  committee  to  visit  the  infirmary. 

Did  the  committee  refuse  to  see  the  in- 
firmary ?-^Yes. 

How  &r  is  the  infirmary  firom  where  they 
nt? — ^About  a  hundred  yards;  Mr.  Mylne 
acknowledged  he  had  the  letters  in  his 
pocket  ofthe  complaints  ofthe  officers ;  capt. 
BflULUie  desired  him  to  produce  them^  Mr. 
Mylne  would  not  admit  it. 

Did  Mr.  Morgan  call  Mr.  Mylne  his  client  ? 
«— Tea,  he  did  ;  all  the  persons  that  complain- 
ed naajosA  capt.  Baillie  were  his  clients. 

who  was  the  chairman  ofthe  committee  ? — 
Mr.  Cust  the  first  six  days,  Mr.  Barker  the 
last  day. 

Was  he  meaent  at  any  of  the  other  meet- 
aogs  ? — OiUT  one  of  the  meetings :  I  believe 
IhcthinL 

At  the  last  meeting,  what  was  determined  ? 
•^Nothing  determine ;  there  was  a  scene  of 
cobfinion  and  altercation. 

Did  h^  at  the  last  meetings  zefiise  to  hear 


the  evidence  capt  Baillie  produced  ?•— Almost 
in  every  instance ;  one  was  the  blind  men, 
who  had  been  affected  by  the  removal  of  some 
posts  and  rails  round  the  Hos|>ita],  by  which 
they  were  liable  to  many  accidents ;  he  de« 
sir^  they  might  be  called  in;  Mr.  Barker 
would  not  let  them ;  he  said  it  was  of  no  Idnd 
of  consequence. 

Were  all  the  members  ofthe  committeo 
directors  ofthe  Hospital  ? — ^As  far  as  I  under-* 
stood.  « 

Who  attended  on  the  first  day  ? — ^Mr.  Cust^ 
Mr.  Wells,  Mr.  Savary,  and  Mr.  Reynolds. 
On  the  second  day,  I  believe,  the  same  mem- 
bers were  present.  On  the  third  day,  Mr. 
Cust,  Mr.  Barker,  and  Mr.  Reynolds;  that 
was  the  day  on  which  Mr.  Barker  attended^ 
I  believe,  rather  more  than  an  hour;  he  came 
in  late.  On  the  fourth  dav,  Mr.  Cust,  Mr. 
Wells,  and  Mr.  James,  the  Mtter  of  whom  at- 
tended then  for  the  first  time.  On  the  fifUt 
day,  Mr.  Cust,  sir  Merrick  Burrell,  Mr.  James, 
and  Mr.  Reynolds;  capt.  Baillie  seemed  to 
suffer  a  ^at  loss  in  the  want  of  the  attend- 
ance of  sir  Merrick  Burrell.  The  sixth  meet- 
ing, Mr.  Cust,  Mr.  Wells,  and  Mr.  Reynolds. 
The  seventh  meeting,  Mr.  Barker,  Mr.  James, 
and  Mr.  Wells ;  but  no  one  member  attended 
the  whole  seven  meeting. 

Do  you  speak  that  with  certainty  ?-— Yes  ; 
Mr.  Cust  was  present  at  six,  not  at  the 
seventh. 

Did  capt.  Baillie  approve  of  the  mode  of 
the  directors  enquiring  into  their  own  con- 
duct?— It  was  the  constant  matter  of  dispute ; 
he  said  their  enquiry  was  as  improper  as  their 
conduct. 

Did  they  enquire  whether  landmen  were 
appointed  contrary  to  the  charter  ? — ^That  was 
a  subject  of  altercation  *  Mr.  Cust  said  it  was 
not  a  subject  referred  to  them,  and  they 
would  not  enquire  into  it.  Capt.  Bailhe 
urged  that  it  was  the  chief  matter  of  com- 
plaint, and  that  if  the  landmen  were  removed, 
that  would,  he  thought,  remedy  all  the  other 
complaints ;  and  as  they  would  not  enquire 
into  that,  he  took  up  his  hat,  and  was  going 
out  of  the  room,  but  did  not  go. 

Whether  they  made  an  enquiry  whether  tha 
landmen  were  appointed  contrary  to  the  char- 
ter ? — After  about  an  hour's  altercation,  when 
c&uX.  Baillie  insisted  on  the  point  as  a  mate- 
risu  object  of  the  enquiry  by  the  committee, 
Mr.  Cust  in  particular  said,  that  it  did  not  ap- 
pear that  it  was  any  matter  referred  to  them ; 
though  it  was  proper  for  tiie  consideration  of 
parliament,  it  was  none  of  their  business ;  it 
was  vei^  much  urged,  that  it  was  a  charge  in 
capt.  Baillie's  book,  and  they  ought  to  nave 
enciuired  into  the  ground  of  it. 

Whether  there  was  any  enquiry  concerning 
wards  taken  firom  the  pensioners  to  convert 
into  lodg|ings  for  landmen? — It  came  in  only 
collatersdly ;  the  committee  did  view  the  gaU 
lery  in  Mr.  Ibbetson's  apartments,  to  see  how^ 
&r  Mr.  Ibbetson  had  gained  of  the  gallery ; 
on  viewing  the  gallery  and  reading  tm  Ca^ 


«71J 


18  GEORGE  ni.         The  Case  qfCapkdn  Thmoi  BmOief         \9fl9 


I  thought  it  was  as  it  is  described  in  captain 
Baillie*s  book. 

Did  the  committee  enquire  into  the  parti- 
culars of  taking  off  the  wards  as  described  in 
the  book  ? — ^They  were  frequently  mentioned 
collaterally;  there  was  no  enquiry  into  it. 
.  Did  they  enquire  respecting  the  bull  beef? 
— ^It  was  mentioned ;  I  unoerstdod  that  all 
tile  facts  ^specting  the  bull  beef  were  ad- 
mitted. 

Did  they  enquire  into  the  conduct  4)f  the 
,  j^eward  and  the  clerk  of  the  cheque^  in  receiv- 
ing the  bull  beeC? — They  said  that  the  steward 
and  clerk  of  the  cheque  said  it  was  good  beef^ 
and  seemed  to  say  the  charge  was  not  true ; 
I  can  read  the  facts  at  length  as  taken  at  the 
time  of  the  committee;  we  sat  down  while  it 
was  fresh  in  our  memory,  and  took  the  &cts 
down  in  order  to  assist  capt.  Baillie's  counsel; 
if  the  House  wish  it,  I  can  read  that  or  any 
Other  parts  from  the  minutes. 
.  Was  it  stated  that  it  was  the  duty  of  the 
steward  and  clerk  of  the  cheque  to  teke  care 
that  bull  beef  was  not  delivered ;  was  it  en- 
quired whether  thev  were  to  blame  or  not  in 
not  attending  to  that? — Capt.  Baillie  urged 
the  fact;  fhe  clerks  seemed  to  urge,  that  if  it 
nras  true,  they  had  been  deceived. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  into  their  conduct  ? 
— ^Into  the  steward's  conduct  there  was,  pretty 
warmly. 

As  to  capt.  Baillie's  complaints? — Com- 
plaints that  Mr.  Morgan  thought  proper; 
capt  Baillie  and  I  were  passive,  as  Mr.  Cust 
allowed,  after  Mr.  ]Vf organ  had  gone  through 
his  points,  we  should  oe  at  liberty  to  tale 
it  up. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  into  the  conduct  of 
the  clerk  of  the  cheque  and  steward  whv  they 
suffered  bull  beef  so  long  to  be  imposed  upon 
the  men  ?'^There  were  a  great  many  ques- 
tions of  that  sort;  I  can  turn  to  it  in  the  mi- 
Butes. 

Mr.  Cowley,  the  Witness,  reads  as  follows: 

**  The  paranaph  at  the  bottom  of  page  53, 
in  the  prmted  Case,  viz.  <<  The  case  is  now 
greatly  altered ;  and  though  almost  every  ne- 
cessary had  beien  tor  several  years  growing 
worse,  it  was  not  till  the  appointment  of  the 
late  and  present  steward,  tnat  the  grievances 
arrived  at  such  a  height,  which  makes  an  v 
longer  acquiescence  under  fraud  and  impost- 
tion  impossible.'^ 

Mr.  Morgan  then  desired  the  lieutenant  go- 
vernor to  prove  this  general  charge,  who  said 
he  would  prove  it  by  a  number  of  facts,  and 
that  if  the  committee  would  call  in  any  of  the 
pensioners,  they  would  all  say  the  same  thing ; 
to  which  Mr.  Morgan  said,  that  particular  in- 
stances did  not  prove  a  general  charge;  and 
Mr.  Cust  said  the  t»en»oners  would  say  any 
thing  they  were  bid. 

•  It  was  therefore  determined,  that  there  was 
BO  proof  of  the  general  charge. 

The  charjge  in  page  56  was  then  read,  and 
opL  Allwiight  called  in^  to  whom  it  was  also 


I  read;  he  said  that  he  was  the  captain  of  the 
week  there  mentioned ;  that  he  had  observed 
the  meat  to  be  bad,  and  proceeded,  as  stated 
in  the  Case.  That  when  the  steward  first  re- 
fiised  to  consent  to  a  survev  on  the  meat, 
Godby  said  that  there  should  be  no  survev, 
as  he  did  not  send  for  the  captain  of  the  week. 
This  idea  of  the  steward's,  and  the  whole 
matter  on  which  it  was  grounded,  caft.  AUr 
wright  said  had  been  the  cause  of  many  dis- 
agreeable disputes  in  the  Hosf>ital :  that  there 
was  a  clause  m  the  contract,  in  whidi  it  was 
agreed,  that  if  the  steward  thought  any  meat 
delivered  was  not  agreeable  to  the  terms  of 
the  contract,  he  should  send  to  Uie  aq|ytain 
and  lieutenant  of  the  week,  that  a  survey 
should  be  taken  bv  them  and  the  derk  of  the 
cheque,  and  on  due  examination,  the  meat 
rejected ;  but  the  steward,  who  probably  read 
noUiing  but  his  contracts  and  accounts,  did 
not  seem  to  know  that  none  of  the  parties 
who  made  these  contracts  had  any  authoritj 
over  the  naval  officers  of  the  establishment 
andthatthey  certainly  could  not  place  then 
under  the  command  of  the  steward,  or  entitle 
him  to  send  for  them  whenever  he  thought 

E roper.  That  the  nftval  offwers  were  ordered 
y  thdr  commission  and  instructions  to  at- 
tend to  compkdnts  of  the  pensioners,  and  that 
they  are  to  apply  the  proper  resaoAj  on  the 
spot  without  delay;  or  if  tms  is  not  in  their 
power,  or  the  power  of  the  coundl  of  the 
House,  they  are  to  lay  the  same  before  the 
lordsof  the  Admiral^,  having  nothing  what- 
ever to  do  with  the  board  of  directors. 

Whether  there  was  any  enquiry  made  into 
the  conduct  of  the  officers  of  the  house  why 
they  suffered  this  abuse  to  subsbt  so  long  a 
time  ? — One  of  the  master  cooks  of  the  Hos- 
pital (not  Moore)  said  that  the  meat  when  it 
was  objected  to  was  better  tlum  what  was 
usually  bought  in  the  markets ;  the  general 
impression  on  my  mind,  as  £ur  as  I  recollect 
at  this  distance  of  time,  was,  that  the  clerics 
of  the  steward  and  cheque  seemed  to  dispute 
every  thing  said  of  the  meat,  and  insisted  it 
was  better  than  what  could  be  bought  in  the 
town ;  but  in  general  the  clerks  seemed  te  be 
of  one  opinicm,  the  naval  officers  of  another; 
the  clerks  said  it  was  good,  the  naval  officeia 
said  it  was  bad. 

Was  the  contract  renewed  with  the  same 
contractor?— It  was;  they  said  bbbcsi^  con* 
victed  of  firaud  was  no  reason  why  be  uioold 
not  be  dealt  with  again. 

Did  they  enquire  whether  there  was  bad 
and  sour  small  beer  mixed  with  water,  turned 
into  the  pensioners'  dining  room  for  their  use  ? 
^There  was  no  particular  enquiry ;  the  &cts 
in  the  printed  Case  were  mostly  admitted  to 
be  true;  they  were  in  fidl  as  strong  terms  in 
the  minutes  of  the  Hospital  as  in  the  printed 
Case ;  they  allowed  Ihe  ftcts  were  true,  onljr 
thev  were  carried  too  far. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  whethef  bad  shoes 
and  stockings  were  deUvered  to  the  p^ 
sioQ€Ka}-«Tliere.  ivas  a  good  deal  of  enqiuij 

§ 


frS]       fupedingtke  Eoyal  HatpUal  at  Grernxoich.        A*  D.  177S. 


[274 


inlo  tiie  finen,  bat  no  evidencey  1  believe^  fln 
the  shoes  and  stockings ;  the  facts  respectinr 
the  linen  were  admitted  to  be  true,  thoueh 
moch  a^iravated ;  it  appeared  to  me  to  oe 
the  most  fraudulent  busmess  that  ever  was,  a 
scandalous  fiaud  of  maoy  thousand  yards  of 

JDMO. 

Was  there  any  decision  of  the  court  that 
thit  diai^ge  was  well  founded  ? — The  court  al- 
injrs  ordered  us  to  intiidraw^  when  they  came 
to  any  resohitkm;  nor  would  they  read  it 
afterwards ;  every  thins,  I  found,  a&nost  was 
denied ;  and  the  facts  that  wera  proved,  were 
aid  not  to  be  proved* 

Did  capt  Baillie  desire  the  witnesaes  to  be 
cdleduiP — ^Yes. 

Did  they  receive  tiie  report  of  the  persoQfi 
that  measured  the  linen } — I  believe  I  could 
venture  to  say,  that  they  were  not  admitted 
er  md  any  attention  to. 

Did  capt.  Baillie  desire  the  committee  to 
etamine  the  sheets  and  shirts  in  the  wards  f 
^A  good  deal  was  said  of  that ;  capt.  Baillie, 
after  haiin^  examined  the  sheets  and  the 
shirta^  sud  it  might  be  supposed  that  he  had 
bean  culling  the  shirts  and  sheets ;  go  and 
enmine  the  wards,  go  into  any  of  the  wards 
af  the  Hospital,  I  don't  care  where  it  is,  you 
aay  have  an  opportuni^  of  examining  the 
ifairts  on  the  pensioners^  backs. 

Was  there  any  en<{uiTy  about  the  washing 
4)f  the  linen  f — ^There  was  a  good  deal  men- 
tkmed  about  washing  the  linen ;  that  was  xthe 
dqr  air  Merrick  Burrell  was  tiiere;  it  was 
voy&irly  enquired  into  upon  the  whole;  the 
Banes  were  produced;  Mr.  Momn,  when- 
ever we  produced  evidence,  woulanot  permit 
tMpL  Baillie  to  go  on,  but  somebody  was  to 
controvert  that  evidence;  but,  upon  the 
whole,  it  was  proved,  by  the  evidence  of  three 
or  four  nurses,  and  by  the  evidence  of  some 
ti  the  pensioners,  tlmt  the  linen  was  in  a 
shocking  state,  some  of  it  mere  filth,  such  as 
BO  man  could  put  on. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  about  the  sink  com- 
pktned  of  as  a  nuisance .' — There  was  no  e&- 
mnrv  upon  it ;  it  was  oi\en  mentioned ;  capt. 
Baillie  «aid  the  evidences  had  been  wBdting 
several  days ;  but  it  was  constantly  refused  or 
e?aded;  and  they  were  never  heard  during 
theaeven  days.  It  was  on  that  account  boot- 
awunGough  waited,  when  he  incurred  the 
aflence  on  which  he  was  turned  out. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  into  the  state  of  the 
inirxnarv?  —  Except  the  e\idence  of  Mr. 
Mylne  himself,  L  believe  there  was  no  other 
evidence;  the  letters  were  refused;  I  exa» 
Bsned  the  infirmaiy;  I  thought  it  was  in  a 
wofse  state  than  the  printed  Case  represents ; 
4fae  windows  were  Ruling  in ;  the  appearsinee 
was  so  remarkable,  it  must  strike  any  body 
tet  went  into  it;  some  of  the  silk  of  the 
windows,  two  or  three,  were  quite  rotten. 

tHd  you  attend  in  the  court  of  King's- 
tafcb? — ^l  was  present. 

What  was  done  with  the  rule ?"  What  was 
the  determinatiim  of  the  court?—- I  under* 

VOL.  XM. 


stood  tlie  rule  was  dismissed  with  costs.    I 
imdirstand  nothing  of  the  niatter  technically. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  about  removing  of 
the  posts  and  rails  round  the  Hospital  f — No; 
that  was  one  of  the  points  not  enquired  into; 
there  was  a  great  deal  of  altercation  about  it ; 
but  it  was  tefused ;  capt  Baillie  desired  the 
witnesses  to  go  away ;  ne  said  there  was  no 
justice  for  them;  they  might  break  thelr 
necka,  or  legs,  or  anv  thing ;  they  would  not 
have  redress  there ;  he  desired  the  pensioners 
to  be  peaceable. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  respecting  the  di- 
rectors having  summoned  a  captain  of  the 
house  before  them  ? — ^That  was  an  admitted 
fact ;  but  there  was  no  enquiry,  as  I  recollects 

Was  there  any  enquiry  into  the  director^ 
conduct,  in  giving  to  a  tnouaand  men  money 
in  lieu  of  provisions  ? — That  was  not  enquked 
into. 

Did  Mr.  Cust  promise  that  that  should  be 
enquired  into  ? — He  desired  that  they  might 
go  through  what  they  were  about,  and  tmit 
any  tiling  that  capt.  &illie  desired  should  b# 
enouired  into  afterwards ;  but  that  promise, 
ana  all  the  hopes  we  had  about  it,  came  to 
nothing. 

Did  the  committee  make  any  enqmry  into 
the  danger  of  fire  in  the  taylors'  shop' over  the 
chapel  ? — ^No ;  capt.  Baillie  mentioned  it,  and 
desired  they  would  enquire  into  that  business; 
but  his  chief  concern  about  the  danger  of  fire 
was  a  new  chimney  in  Mr.  tbbetson's  apart* 
ment. 

Did  capt  Baillie  desire  to  enquire  into  that  f 
Is  it  stated  in  the  book  ? — ^Yes. 

Did  they  enquire  into  it  ? — ^No. 

When  Mr.  Gust  made  the  declaration,  that 
every  thing  should  be  enquired  into  that  capt. 
Baillie  desired,  was  it  in  conversation,  or  as 
sitting  in  the  chair  ? — There  were  some  gowns 
shewn  to  Mr.  Gust,  and  the  difference  was  so 
striking,  that  Mr.  Gust  seemed  hurt  at  it,  and 
seemea  to  say,  if  there  were  things  of  that 
sort,  it  was  right  they  should  enquire  into  it ; 
and  said,  as  soon  as  Mr.  Morgan  nad  finished 
his  charges,  every  thing  should  be  enquired 
into. 

Was  the  court  sitting  then  ? — ^He  mentkmed 
it  first  when  there  was  nobody,  I  believe, 
there  but  himself;  but  I  think  he  repeated  it 
frequently  afterwards ;  we  were  glaa  of  th^ 
promise,  and  wished  to  clinch  it. 

Gan  you  turn  to  your  minutes  to  establish 
that  hct ;  whether  he  did  say  it  wliiie  the 
committee  were  sitting  ? — It  was  on  the  sixth 
daiy,  previous  to  the  meetiiig  of  the  commit- 
tee, tnat  the  gOwns  were  shewn  to  Mr.  Gust, 
and  a  cloak  made  out  of  their  old  gowns. 

Gan  you  turn  to  your  minutes,  to  see  whe- 
ther that  promise  was  made  during  the  sitting 
of  the  committee? — If  I  could  findit,  it  would 
be  by  reading  a  great  deal ;  it  presses  on  my 
mind  that  he  did  repeat  the  promise. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  made  respecting  tho ' 
government  of  the  boys  and  their  guardians  f 
— ^It  is  difficult  to  answer  these  questions^  tiio 

T 


S75]  IS  GEORGE  m.  The  Case  ofCaflea»  Tkmn  BoaBk^         [S70 

iR^ier  caaaeiasoccilktaniij;  Kr 
hadbeentfae  laans of tunaog okI  the 

dian  of  the  boys,  as  captdn  Baillie  suggested, 
because  of  his  huzzaing  under  his  window ; 
the  guardian  of  the  bovs  was  not  called ;  the 
matter  was  not  enqiured  into. 

Was  there  any  charge  enquired  into,  that 
jthe  barber,  and  clerk  of  the  council,  the 
porter,  and  one  of  the  cook's  niates,  made  si- 
necures of  their  respective  offices  ? — ^It  was  no 
part  of  the  regular  enquiry ;  it  was  admitted 
that  the  barber  had  not  attended  man^  years. 
.  Was  Lefevre's  evidence  heard  or  received  by 
the  committee  ? — When  Lefevre  entered  the 
room,  Mr.  Barker  asked  who  he  was ;  he  said 
Jie  was  called  to  jgive  evidence ;  the  lieute- 
nant-governor desu^  the  evidence  might  be 
heard.  Mr.  Cooke  sud  he,  (meaning  him- 
self) had  been  under  examination  several 
hours,  and  he  could  not  be  heard ;  and  he  was 
ordered  out  of  the  room.  Captain  AHwright 
was  called  in ;  Mr.  Barker  asked  him  what  he 
.came  there  for ;  he  said  he  supposed  to  prove 
^e  truth  of  a  paper  delivered  to  him  by  cap- 
tain Baillie  ^  and  he  was  turned  out  of  the 
pommittee  m  an  abrupt  manner ;  Mr.  Barker 
said  it  had  been  objected  to  before,  and  be 
ivould  hear  no  more  about  it 

Did  the  committee  enquire  whether  the 
chaplains  acquired  the  chaplaincies  by  grant- 
ing annuities,  or  by  being  sea  officers  ? — Mr. 
Mor^n,  I  believe,  delivered  a  message  from 
lord  Sandwich,  that  the  committee  would  not 
attend  to  any  matter  that  immediately  re- 
spec^d  him ;  that  he  would  take  care  of  it 
himself;  I  cannot  charge  my  memory  with 
the  words ;  that  was  the  substance  of  the 
message*,  lord  Sandwich  requested  that  the 
committee  would  not  attend  to  any  part  that 
might  affect  him ;  he  would  take  care  of  himr 
selh 

The  Earl  of  Sandwich,  Did  he  say  he 
broueht  that  message  from  me  ? — A,  I  under- 
sjtooasp,  from  his  words ;  I  believe  that  is  the 
p^jrport  of  the  words. 

Have  you  made  any  minute  or  memorandum 
pf  that ?— Certsunly,  it  is  here;  I  believe  it 
was  the  second  day,  I  am  not  very  certain  of 
^t;  if  it  will  save  time,  I  will  apply  to  Mr. 
Morgan ;  I  dare  say  he  wijl  acknpwfedge  the 
jnessage. 

Js  it  in  the  affidavit  pf  the  oourtof  KineV 
bench  stating  what  passed  from  day  to  day  I — 
There  is  but  a  small  part  in  that  affidavit ;  I 
drew  the  affidavit  up  m  a  hurry^  and  had  not 
time  to  put  down  every  thing  that  passed. 

[Reads  his  Minutes  as  follows :]  ^  The 
Case  was  then  opened,  at  page  1 1,  in  the  first 
para^ph  of  the  charge  asainst  the  chaplain, 
m  which  it  is  said,  tlmt  Mr.  Copke  had  bar- 
g^ed  and  paid  money  for  a  seat  at  the  board 
of  directors;  Mr.  Morgan  said,  that  he  was 
instructed  to  acquipnt  the  directors,  that  lord 
Sandwich  would  take  care  of  all  those  parts 
which  concerned  himself,  and  therefore  de- 
(nred  the  committee  to  pass  over  them.''  % 

]S|j[r.  Q,  I  could  menUoD,iaanswer  to  the  ge- 


_  ^ifiBi  pttBsea,  th6 
mannef  in  which  the  standard  measure  of  the 
linen  arose,  quite  in  a  different  way  from  what 
has  been  represented  since.  At  the  meeting, 
when  sir  Merrick  Burrell  was  present,  when 
the  business  of  the  linen  was  investigated,  Mr. 
Godby,  the  steward,  seemed  to  controvert, 
that  there  was  no  standard  for  the  linen, 
though  he  had  said  before,  the  standard  was 
three  yards  and  a  half  for  a  shirt,  and  five 
yards  for  a  sheet;  in  consequence  of  that,  ^, 
general  Order  was  given  by  captain  Baillie, 
throughout  the  Hospital,  for  the  boatswains 
to  measure  the  sheets  and  shirts,  which  they 
accordingly  did  measure;  they  were  not,  I 
find,  very  accurate,  for  they  did  not  allow 
thumbs ;  notwithstanding  which,  some  of  the 
shirts  had  only  three  yards ;  and  there  were  a 
great  many  thousand  yards  deficient  upoo 
shirts  and  sheets,  taking  Mr.  Godby's  declaim 
ration,  that  there  was  a  standard.  Mr.  Godby 
Stated  that  he  had  since  discovered,  at  the 
last  meeting,  one  hundred  and  forty-five 
yards  deficient ;  he  stated  it,  I  think,  as  an 
accidental  deficiency;  but  how  will  onehun* 
dred  and  fortv-five  yards  account  for  several 
thousand  yards }  Upon  that  seneral  ground, 
captain  Baillie,  as  I  tooklhe  liberty  to  advise 
him,  made  a  positive  charge  of  fhtud,  and  de- 
sired the  directors  to  cause  an  immediate  exac 
mination  into  the  state^f  the  linen,  as  it  then 
stood ;  but  they  did  not  then  make  an  exa> 
mination. 

The  manner  in  which  the  minutes  con- 
cluded may  attract  the  attention  of  your  lord- 
ships ;  th(p  whole  will  give  your  lorddiips  ^itf 
strongest  impression  how  the  iKisiness  was 
conducted ;  tne  last  day,  I  confess,  was  most 
the  object  of  attention  and  complaint,  re* 
specting  captain  Baillie. 

Mr.  Cowley  reads,  by  order  of  the  Houses 
his  Minutes,  as  follows : 

"  It  beins  now  near  eleven  o'clock,  Mr. 
James  (who  nad  been  expected  witii  gnat  im- 
patience some  time)  coming  in,  the  committee 
was  opened,  and  consisted  of  Mr.  Barker, 
chairman,  Mr.  James,  Mr.  Wells. 

^  There  was  never  perhaps  more  pains  taken 
to  maintain  the  dignity  of  anv  chair,  than 
was  taken  by  Mr.  Barker  on  this  occasion; 
he  was  almost  continuailv  speaking  himself^ 
and  was  always  in  a  violent  passion,  if  any 
thing  happened  to  interrupt  him ;  he  seemed 
sometimes  not  to^  be  inclined  to  distinguish 
his  friends ;  and  Mr.  Morgan,  who  had  oeen 
treated  with  great  deference  and  attention  by 
Mr.  Cust,  was  frequently  reprehended  by  Mr. 
Barker,  in  a  very  rude  stile ;  and  when  told 
that  he  asked  his  pardon,  replied,  *^  That  was 
not  sufficient''  Mr.  Barker  repeated,  num- 
berless times,  that  all  that  was  complained  of 
had  been  done  and  approved  of  by  three  and 
twenty  gentlemen;  and  it  was  a  great  and 
strange  piece  of  impudence  and  presumptioo 
for  me  lieutenant-governor,  who  was  only^ 
one  man,  to  oppose  the  opinion  of  so  many  | 


S77]  rupecting  the  Royai  Hoipital  at  Greenmch.        A.  D«  1778. 


[S78 


ud,  on  all  the  subsequent  matters,  #ould 
hear  nothixig  further  than  that  they  had.  been 
approved  ofby  the  directors.  It  was  in  vain 
tiiat  he  was  toid^  the  lieutenani-govemor  con- 
sidered himself  as  bound  by  his  integrity,  as 
aa  honest  man  and  an  officer,  to  make  good 
the  several  charges,  which  he  had  deliberately 
laid  befoiv  the  general  court;  and  that  he  was 
DOW  read^^,  notwithstanding  the  prejudice  and 
passion  with  which  he  was  treated,  to  produce 
aodientic  evidence  of  facts,  the  nature  of 
which  could  not  be  controverted,  whatever 
sanction  they  mieht  have  received  from  the 
approbation  of  thoso  directors,  who  usually 
attended  the  business  of  the  Hospital,  roost  of 
whom  were  not  in  independent  situations ; 
that  it  was  too  late  now  to  pay  compliments 
to  any  roan ;  that  he  had  taken  up  tne  com- 
plaints of  the  pensioners,  which  really  existed : 
and  was  ready  to  stand  or  fall  by  the  proof, 
before  anyleged  or  impartial  tribunal— neither 
of  which  titles  the  committee  had  the  smallest 
pretensions  to. 

^  Nothing  however,  could  interrupt  Mr. 
Barker  in  his  career ;  and,  compared  with  him, 
Mr.  Cust  was  a  gentleman  ana  a  man  of  busi- 
ness, though  a  more  dangerous  opponent 
than  the  present  chairman. 

**  He  now  ordered  the  minutes  of  the  last 
committee  to  be  read;  without  which,  he 
said,  thev  were  no  committee.  The  clerk 
then  read  only  the  evidence  which  had  been 
l^ven  under  the  head  of  Mr.  Mylne,  at  the 
conclusion  of  the  last  committee ;  wherein, 
among  several  other  omissions,  were  the 
question  and  answer  of  Mr.  Skeene,  the 
0Utler*s  mate, ''  What  ship  he  had  served  in  ?'' 
To  which  he  said, ''  That  he  had  never  been 
at  sea."  The  Ueutenant-govemor  asked  the 
derk,  why  he  had  omitted  this  ?  He  said, 
**  that  he  put  down  nothing  but  what  he  was 
ordered  by  the  chairman.''  Mr.  Barker 
echoed,  to  be  sure,  and  over-ruled  all  farther 
argument  about  it.  All  Mr.  Mylne's  opinions 
were  taken  down,  very  circumstantially,  par- 
ticularly where  he  denied  the  authority  of  the 
naval  officers. 

**•  Folio  39  of  the  printed  Case  was  then  read, 
ooQceming  the  cows  kept  in  the  store-yard,  by 
the  clerk  of  the  works,  **  That  it  was  prcs 
paring  for  a  garden,  and  another  store-yard 

*^  Mr.  Mylne  again  seated  himself  at  the  table 
with  the  committee.    To  this  tlie  lieutenant- 

Svenior  objected,  and  told  the  committee, 
it  the  insults  he  had  recdved  from   the 
clerk  of  the  works  were  so  gross,  that  he 
oiuht  not  to  sit  at  the  same  table  with  him. 
Atler  some  altercation,  in  which  Mr.  Mylne 
b^ved  more  calmly  than  the  preceding  da^, 
the  committee   determined   he   shouKl   sit 
where  he  was ;  though  Mr.  Godby,  and  others, 
bad  sat  at  the  other  table,  and  stood  whilst 
they   spoke.     The  Ueutenant-govemor  told 
the  committee,  that  he    was  satisfied  with 
having  mude  the  objection ;  that  he  had  al- 
Rady  recaived  mucn  unworthy  treatment^ 


which  he  expected  would  be  continued ;  and 
h^  believed  that  Mr.  Mylne  would  find  still 
more  favour  for  havine  insulted  him.*' 

My  lords,  when  there  was  an  attempt  Ur 
prove  any  thing,  it  was  asked  if  it  had  oeen 
approved  of  by  the  directors ;  if  it  was  said 
yes,  Mr.  Barker  then  said,  I  will  hear  no  evi- 
dence of  it ;  when  evidence  was  attempted  to 
be  produced,  he  said  it  was  firivolous,  and  they 
were  ordered  out  of  the  room.  If  captain 
Baillie  attempted  to  say  any  thing,  it  was  ge- 
nerally objected  to.  Captain  BaQhe  was  de- 
sired to  withdraw,  and  the  proceedings  of  the 
committee  finished  in  a  hasty  confu^  man- 
ner. 

Have  you  taken  any  minutes  concerning 
the  conclusion  of  the  committee  ? — I  have. 

I  desire  you  will  refer  to  them. 

[Reads  nis  Minutes.]  ''  An  altercation  en- 
sued in  consequence  of  Mr.  Barker's  telHng 
him,  the  witness,  that  he  was  very  impudent 
in  interfering  or  speaking  on  the  subject;  in 
answer  to  which,  it  was  said  that  he  had  a&* 
cidentally  appeared  in  this  business,  in  con- 
sequence or  Mr.  Morgan's  appearing  before 
the  committee,  without  any  notice  being 
given  to  the  Ueutenant-govemor;  that  if  the 
committee  meant  to  support  the  least  appear- 
ance of  fairness  in  the  proceedings,  they  must 
admit  that  he  had  the  same  right  to  debate 
every  stage  of  this  business  as  Mr.  Morgan 
had;  tiiat  Mr.  Morgan  had  carried  the  pnvi- 
leges  of  a  counsel  to  a  vei^  extraordinary 
length  in  several  instances.  On  the  contrary, 
that  he,  as  an  assistant  to  the  Ueutenant-go- 
vemor, had  frequently  been  desired  to  sp^ik 
to  manv  points,  as  he  had  always  confined 
himself  to  the  subject  within  the  bounds  pre- 
scribed by  the  committee,  and  that  he  had 
been  heard  by  Mr.  Cust  in  all  the  iformer 
committees,  and  that  sir  Merrick  Burrell,  on 
the  day  in  which  he  was  present,  had  fre- 
quently desired  that  he  might  be  heard;  and 
matin  his  present  situation,  he  certainly  ought 
to  be  allowed  to  speak  on  tne  several  subjects 
before  the  committee,  without  being  insulted 
by  the  chairman.  The  chairman  and  Mr. 
Wells  then  told  him,  they  would  hear  him  no 
further,  and  that  he  must  retire. 

"  The  lieutenant  governor  then  told  them, 
that  if  Uiey  would  not  allow  him  a  person  as 
an  assistant,  and  also  to  take  notes,  and  be  a 
witness  of  what  passed,  he  must  retire  also ; 
the  committee,  who  had  frequently  expressed 
a  desire  to  proceed  without  tne  lieutenant-go- 
vernor, seized  on  this  opportunity  with  great 
readiness,  and  told  him,  that  he  also  must  re- 
tire, and  they  both  retired  accordingly. 

"  Two  lar^e  flaskets  were  then  ordered  out 
of  the  room  oy  the  lieutenanUgovernor,  con- 
taining sundry  necessaries,  which  the  cofii- 
mittee  could  not  be  prevailed  upon  to  inspect, 
consisting  of  sheets,  shirts,  pillow-cas^f, 
towels,  shoes  and  stockings,  aU  of  which 
were  ^eatly  deficient  in  Quantity  or  quality^ 
and  had  been  deUvered  to  him  by  the  nursea 
and  pensioners  in  the  different  wards  of  the* 


«79] 


18  GEORGE  IIL         The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaUtie^         [980 


Hospital;  and  also  specimens  of  some  ar? 
tides  which  had  been  delivered  since  the 
sitting  of  the  committee,  whidi  were  much 
supenorto  those  which  had  been  delivered 
before,  particidarly  the  stockings  and  piUow 
cases,  the  last  of  which  were  near  twice  the 
size.  It  was  now  near  two  o'clock,  and  the 
carriages  had  been  ordered  at  .that  hour; 
there  was  no  appearance  when  the  lieutenant- 
governor  lefl  the  committee-room,  that  any 
lurther  business  would  be  done  on  that  day. 
But  he  was  afterwards  informed,  that  the  of- 
ficers of  the  coimcil,  who  had  ail  retired  on 
the  order  of  the  chairman,  were  sent  for 
again;  the  enquiry  resumed^  and  their  evi- 
dence taken  gainst  him  in  his  absence. 

<<As  Mr.  Wells  drove  off  in  his  carria^,the 
lieutenant-governor,  who  was  walking  m  the 
square,  asked  him  if  the  committee  were  to 
have  any  more  meetings?  He  said,  they  were 
to  meet  on  Tuesday  next  for  the  last  time,  to 
enquire  into  the  cliarges  against  the  directors, 
but  that  they  should  want  nobody  but  them- 
selves.    / 

'^  Thus  the  committee  finished  their  enquiry 
in  the  same  irregular,  arbitrary,  and  illeg^ 
manner,  as  they  had  begun  and  conducted  it. 
Mr.  Morgan  was,  in  the  oeginning,  permitted 
to  Dull  the  whole  Case  in  pieces,  and  put  it  to- 
gether in  what  manner  he  bought  proper, 
under  the  head  of  charges  against  particular 
persons,  all  of  whom  he  called  his  chents,  and 
hy  this  manoeuvre,  defeated  every  purpose  of 
fair  and  impartial  enquiry. 

*^  It  was  hardly  possible  to  urge  any  thing  in 
what  he  or  the  committee  woiud  allow  to  be 
the  proper  time,  if  it  did  not  strictlv  relate  to 
the  Case  as  Mr.  Moi^an  had  classed  it,  so  that 
the  lieutenant-governor  was  no4  to  prove  his 
own  Case,  but  Mr.  Morgan's. 

*^  Mr.  Cust  had,  on  a  mat  many  occasions, 
promised  that  the  several  things  wnich  should 
not  appear  to  have  been  etiquired  into,  when 
Mr.  Morgan  had  eone  throu^  the  sev^ul 
charses,  under  the  nead  of  particular  persons, 
shoidd  be  enquired  into  under  the  general 
head  of  charges  agidnst  the  directors ;  and  he 
had  particularly  promised,  that  the  compkiint 
of  the  nurses'  gowns  should  be  heard,  though 
Bot  charged  in  the  Case ;  but  as  the  enquiry 
is  now  to  be  finished  in  his  absence,  all  tnese 
promises  are  dexterously  got  rid  oV* 

Whether  captain  BaiUie  reminded  the  com- 
mittee the  last  day  of  Mr.  Cust's  promise,  that 
he  should  be  heard  at  fiill  length  ?«— It  was 
repeatedly  mentbned;  the  ftcts  seemed  to 
make  impressions  on  Mr.  Cusfs  mind;  we 
were  in  hopes  he  would  attend  to  it. 

Was  it  admitted  by  any  of  the  conmiittee, 
that  such  a  promise  had  been  made  ? — ^I  don't 
feeoUect  that  it  was  admitted ;  it  was  not  dis- 
puted ;  it  might  be  supposed  that  no  promise 
made  was  binding  upon  them. 

Was  it  admitted  by  any  gentleman  of  the 
committee  the  last  day,  that  such  a  promise 
had  been  made  ? — I  cannot  say  that  it  was. 

Was  there  any  gentleman  present  the  last 


day  of  the  committee,  that  was  present  wiwi 
the  promise  was  made? — ^From  the  general 
complexion  of  the  .business,  I  suppose  Mr. 
Ibbetson  was  present,  I  cannot  say  that  he 
was. 

When  it  was  urged  to  Mr.  Barker,  did  any 
body  deny  it  ? — ^I  cannot  say  it  was  denied;  I 
beg  to  refer  to  Mr.  Cust  himself,  I  am  sure  he 
will  acknowledge  it. 

[Mr.  Cowley  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Lefevrt  called  in. 

Give  an  account  to  the  House,  in  what 
manner  you  was  treated  before  the  com- 
mittee ? — r  was  called  in  to  give  my  declara- 
tion ;  immediately  on  my  entering  the  room, 
Mr.  Barker  observed  something  in  a  particular 
manner;  I  cannot  remember  what  it  was. 
The  Rev.  Mr.  Cooke  started  up,  and  said,  I 
should  not  be  heard ;  Mr.  Barker  got  up,  and 
said,  I  should  not  be  heard ;  we  want  to  hear 
nothing  you  have  to  say,  you  shan't  be  heard. 

[Mr.  Lefevre  withdrew.] 

Captain  Allwright  called  in. 

I  desire  captain  Allwright  may  be  asked^ 
whether  all  his  evidence  was  heard  before  the 
committee  of  enquiry,  or  any  part  objected 
to  ? — There  was  a  question  put  to  me  by  die 
lieutenant-governor,  which  Mr.  Barker  re- 
fused to  hear  an  answer  to ;  it  was  respecting 
the  broth  of  the  pensioners ;  whether  I  knew 
any  persons  who  were  not  entitled  to  it  send 
for  it ;  it  was  refused ;  I  asked  the  committee 
whether  I  was  to  answer ;  Mr.  Barker  said  no. 

Whether  you,  at  the  request  of  captain  Bail-^ 
lie,  offered  to  carry  lieutenant  Lefevre's  evi* 
dence  in  writing,  wno  was  not  able  to  appear  ? 
— ^I  had  a  writing  of  Lefevre's  delivered  to 
me ;  I  carried  it  in ;  the  chairman  said  it  had 
be^  already  objected  to,  and  they  could  not 
hear  it.  Mr.  Barker  was  the  chairman ;  cap- 
tain BaUlie  asked  me,  if  it  had  been  read;  I 
said  no ;  it  had  been  objected  to  before,  wad 
could  not  be  heard.  Lefevre,  who  had  been 
at  the  bar,  said,  I  believe  there  is  a  mistake ; 
they  think  it  is  mine,  it  is  not,  it  is  my  ^ 
ther's ;  upon  which  I  went  in  again  and  of> 
fered  it,  but  was  refused. 

Were  the  officers  of  the  council  examined 
before  captain  Baillie,  or  behind  his  back  ? — 
I  believe  afler  he  was  withdrawn.  I  was  sent 
for,  and  I  and  most  of  the  officers  were  called 
and  examined ;  captain  Baillie  was  not  pro^ 
sent. 

You  were  examined? — I  answered  somt 
questions. 

Were  you  present  when  any  of  the  otheiji 
were  examined? — Yes. 

Was  there  az^  examination  ? — ^Yea ;  warn 
kind  of  examination  questions  were  put. 

Did  you  sign  any  complaint  against  captain 
Baillie?— No. 

Did  they  read  any  complaint  against  caplatB 
BailUe?— No. 

Was  there  any  application  to  sign  a  paper 
against  captain  Bailhe?— At  the  council,    *  ~ 


M]        iwqwettNf  <Ac  Royal  Hotpialat  Greenwch.        A.  D.  1778. 


im 


tbttproerwasbrou^fitwasput^  whether  it 
shouki  be  read ;  I  said  I  thought  the  council 
kad  nothiDsto  do  with  it;  I  wished  to  have 
notfaing  to  do  with  it ;  I  wished  to  go  to  the 
oneral  court ;  the  printed  Case  was  product 
by  captain  Ms^^lesden.  After  the  business  of 
tne  Hospital  was  over,  captain  Baillie  said,  I 
believe  the  business  is  over,  let  them  ask  if 
anv  body  else  wants  the  council ;  that  was 
published  at  the  door ;  somebody  said  to  cap- 
tain Maplesden,  have  you  nothing  to  offer  ^ 

Who  was  that  somebody  ? — I  don't  remem- 
ber; captain  Maplesden  put  his  hand  in  his 
bosom  and  pulled  out  the  Case,  and  desired  it 
to  be  read;  he  pointed  out  nothine  himself; 
it  passed  through  the  hands  of  Mr.  Cooke  and 
Mr.  Godby ;  they  proposed  to  go  out  and  form 
a  committee  against  the  lieutenant-governor ; 
I  said  the  kind  of  attack  I  had  seen  that  day  on 
the  lieutenant-sovemor  was  very  extraordi- 
naiy,  such  as  I  bad  never  seen  before ;  it  was 
very  unusual ;  I  was  answered  that  it  had  been 
done  before,  a  day  or  two  ago,  at  Salters'  Hall, 
I  believe  they  said ;  I  said  I  dare  say  it  was 
not  done,  I  presumed  not  on  the  chair ;  if 
they  made  that  attack  upon  him,  I  said,  I 
thought  it  would  have  been  much  more  de- 
cent, if  they  intended  to  attack  the  lieutenant- 
governor,  to  desire  the  governor's  attendance 
m  the  chair ;  th^  said  thea  they  would  not 
make  it  an  act  or  council.  i 

Have  you  ever  known  any  of  the  landmen 
behave  ul  to  the  lieutenant-govemar  when  he 
was  presiding  in  the.  council? — ^The  heute- 
nant^ovemor  stated  some  matters  to  tlie 
council  to  be  carried  to  the  Admiralty-board ; 
they  said  it  would  not  avail  to  carry  it  there ; 
the  lieutenantrgovernor.  said  there  were  no 
directions  in  the  bye-laws  of  the  Hospital,  to 
have  recourse  to  the  board  of  directors ;  that 
they  had  made  several  applications  to  that 
boud  to  have  grievances  redressed,  which 
were  not  redressed,  and  he  desired  to  lay  the 
matters  before  the  Admiralty;  that  redress, 
he  apprehended,  would  be  had  there ;  but  as 
they  would  not  make  it  a  matter  of  council, 
he  said  he  should  present  it  b^self ;  they 
aud  it  would  not  be  received,  as  it  did  not 
come  properly. 

Do  you  attend  the  coundl  constantly  ? — I 
do  not. 

What  'is  your  reason  for  not  attending  ?^I 
have  seen,  in  my  idea,  things  violent  v  ear- 
ned ;  I  Uunk  we  are  rather  over-ruled  by  a 
body,  that  seemed  to  me  an  improper  body  to 
nife  the  Hospital. 

Lord  putuesf.  If  you  and  the  other  military 
efioers  did  attend^  would  not  you  be  a  majo- 
rity against  the  civil  list? — ft  we  were  con- 
Huitiy  to  attoid,  we  should. 

When  you  attended  the  committee  with  the 
deposition  of  L^vre,  was  there  anv  reason 
pvvn  why  they  rejected  it  ?— 'Hiat  it  had  been 
fctsenled  before^  and  had  been  rejected. 

Could  you  authenticate  it  ?— No,  I  could  not. 

Did  you  not  offer  it  yomi^lf  by  way  of  au- 
thenticaiitiiig  it  ^^No. 


Was  there  any  objection  of  that  kind  made  ? 
■—No. 

Did  you  see  him  write  it? — By  no  means; 
it  was  put  into  my  hands  by  the  lieutenant- 
governor. 

As  you,  as  I  think,  declared,  that  youf 
reason  for  not.attending  so  often  as  youother-> 
wise  would  have  done,  was  it,  that  you  were 
over-ruled  in  these  coimcils  ?  I  think  that  was 
what  you  said,  or  to  that  purpose ;  I  should 
be  glad  to  know  who  were  tnose  particular 
persons  who  presided  chiefly  at  those  boards, 
who  over-ruled  the  military  officers? — ^The 
council  is  not  attended  fully;  it  is  looked 
upon,  if  the  lieutenant-governor  attends,  or  if 
there  is  a  captain  there,  and  two  naval  officers 
of  the  house,  as  the  lieutenant  of  the  week, 
or  the  captain  of  the  week,  that  is  thought 
sufficient,  without  there  is  a  particular  busi- 
ness, then  other  people  drop  in;  when  there  is 
particular  business,  the  civil  officers  attend. 

You  said  vou  did  not  care  to  attend  so  often 
as  you  should  have  done,  because  you  were 
over-ruled ;  who  were  the  persons  that  took 
the  principal  share  in  the  over-ruling? — ^The 

Particular  matter  was  a  case  respecting  die 
eer;  the  lieutenantrgovernor  was  strenuous 
about  several  things  that  he  thousht  were 
not  taken  that  notice  of  he  wished;  he  en- 
deavoured to  get  it  laid  before  the  Admiralty; 
in  that  he  was  over-ruled.  I  have  seen  un- 
pleasant altercations,  ^d  wished  to  keep 
from  them,  as  far  as  my  duty  would  permit. 

I  .should  be  glad,  to  know  who  were  the 
principal  persons  that  were  concerned  in  over- 
ruling?—-The  junior  members,  in  matters  of 
that  Kind,  when  it  came  to  a  matter  of  divi- 
sion, arc  the  civil  officers.  I  have  observed 
when  that  lead  has  been  taken,  the  chair  has 
been  over-ruled. 

[Captain  Allwright  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Cowley  called  in  again. 

Whether  you  could  have  authenticated  that 
paper  delivered  in  from  Lefevre  ? — I  attended 
Lefevre,  who  was  on  his  death-bed ;  I  had  a 
good  deal  of  conversation  with  Mr.  Lefevre 
on  the  matter;  he  said  he  had  some  doubts 
how  far  he  ought  to  go  in  respect  to  the  lieu- 
tenantrjgovemor  on  account  of  his  own  f^ 
mily ;  but  he  said,  as  he  was  on  his  death- 
bed, he  must  discharge  his  conscience;  he 
said  he  knew  captain  baillie  to  be  a  very  wor- 
thy man,  and  he  could  not  withhold  his  testi- 
mony. I  held  the  paper,  and  he  signed  it: 
it  is  a  warm  encomium  on  captain  Baillie  and 
his  conduct. 

Did  you  hear  that  any  body,  when  Mr.  Le- 
fevre (who  I  understand  was  a  lieutenant  in 
the  Hospital)  was  dyin»,  was  there  any  body 
that  went  to  persuade  Mr.  Jjefevre  to  retract^ 
the  opinion  he  had  been  of  before  ? — ^No ;  I 
had  some  conversation  with  him  on  this 
paper,  and  he  desired  me  to  write  down  what 
tie  said ;  he  signed  it;  it  was  as  nearly  as  pos- 
sible his  expressions;  I  am  fully  persuadeo  he 
felt  much  in  favour  of  captain  Baillie. 


S83] 


18  GEORGE  IIL  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaSlie^         [2S4 


Did  he  dictate  the  poper^  «nd  y< 
)wn  what  came  from  him  ? — ^I  had  i 


s. 


Jou  write 
adcalof 

oonveraation  with  him,  to  see  what  his  mind 
was ;  I  took  it  down  after  half  an  hour's  con- 
versation; I  wrote  down  what  I  thought 
would  please  him ;  I  read  it  deliberately  over ; 
he  declared  himself  well  pleased,  and  signed  it 
Was  he  in  a  very  feeble  state  at  that  time  ? 
— Very  feeble;  his  mind  seeined  very  sound, 
but  his  body  very  much  emaciated. 

How  long  did  he  live  after  that?— -I  believe 
a  month ;  he  was  in  a  dying  state ;  I  beUeve 
he  felt  himself  in  a  dying  state. 

[Mr.  Cowley  withdrew,] 

lieutenant  Smith  called  in. 

Give  an  account  of  what  Mr.  Morean  scud 
to  you,  relative  to  your  evidence  b^ore  the 
committee  of  enquuy  ?r-When  I  was  called 
in,  I  begged  to  be  excused  speaking,  and 
begged  to  refer  to  a  paper;  that  mdul- 
eence  was  granted;  upon  my  reading  a  few 
Bncs  (I  have  the  paper  here),  Mr.  Morgan 
called  out  to  me,  and  to  the  gentlemen  there, 
I  beg  to  stop  you;  I  cannot  suffer  such  a 
thing  to  go  on  against  my  client ;  it  is  a  libel. 
Mr.  Cust,  Mr.  Savary,  and  Mr.  Weils,  seemed 
to  differ  firom  him ;  afler  Mr.  Morgan's  ob- 
jection, I  was  permitted  to  go  on  reading 
the  paper.  May  I  be  permittMl  to  read  that 
paper r 

You  may. — Reads  a  paper,  in  which  he  had 
made  a  number  of  reflections  concerning  the 
disagreeable  disputes  and  altercations  which 
had  for  some  years  subsisted  in  the  Hospital, 
which  had  prevented  his  enjoying  that  ease 
and  tranquillity  which  he  expected  to  have 
found  in  Greenwich  Hospital ;  that  fn  his 
opinion,  the  appointment  of  the  chaplain  to  a 
seat  at  the  board  of  directors,  had  been  the 
cause  of  great  inconvenience ;  and  tliat  there 
had,  in  the  course  of  many  disputes,  appeared 
a  spirit  of  malevolence  that  he  was  exceeding- 
ly sorry  for;  he  wished,  for  private  reasons, 
that  the  complaints  in  the  Case  had  not  been 
so  public  and  general,  as  it  would  alarm  many 
people  in  the  Hospital ;  but  that  he  could  not 
avoid  taking  this  opportunity  of  giving  it  as 
his  opinion,  that  the  lieutenant-governor  had, 
on  all  occasions,  appeared  to  be  the  poor  sea- 
m'bn's  friend ;  that  he  had  always  stood  up 
for  the  pensioners ;  and  that  he  had  remedied 
many  abuses ;  and  believed  that  he  had  pre- 
vented others,  which  otherwise  would  have 
been  very  hard  upon  the  men ;  this  paper  Mr. 
Morgan  thought  proper  to  call  a  libel. 

[Lieutenant  Smith  withdrew.} 

Thomas  Rapley,  a  blind  pensioner,  called  in. 

I  desire  you  will  inform  the  House,  if  you 
attended  every  day  during  the  committee,  in 
order  to  give  evidence  ?-- Yes ;  I  attended 
every  day. 

Have  you  any  thing  to  say  of  any  grievance 
you  labour  under? — Yes;  the  pulhngdown 
the  Dosts  and  rails  is  a  great  grievance  to  the 
hlina  and  lapie;  a  taian  since  has  had  his 
thigh  broke ;  another  blind  man  bad  his  hands 


crushed  against  the  wall,  by  which  he  was 
laid  up  a  fortnight;  and  I  had  like  to  have 
been  run  over  by  a  stone  horse,  had  not  a  per- 
son pulled  me  out  of  the  way.  I  an^  another 
man  were  going  in  to  give  evidence ;  we  were 
not  permitted ;  captun  Baillie  said,  '*  My  lads, 
go  nome;  you  vrill  have  no  redress  here; 
you  may  break  your  necks,  or  legs,  or  arms ; 
you  will  have  no  redress  here.''  My  stockings 
will  n6t  last  one  half  the  time ;  and  my  shoes 
burst  out  almost  as  soon  as  I  put  them  on. 
The  washing  is  so  bad,  the  shirts  stink  very 
badly;  they  stick  to  my  skin;  your  lordships 
would  not  suffer  your  hunting  dogs  to  put  such 
linen  on ;  a  shirt  was  brouglit  to  me  all  over 
mud;  it  had  been  trod  in  the  dirt;  I  stuck 
two  pins  in  the  inside  of  the  collar,  and  gave 
it  to  the  nurse  to  put  in  the  wash ;  the  next 
week  I  had  it  returned  just  as  bad  as  it  was 
before,  with  the  pins  in  the  same  place. 
There  are  a  parcel  of  does  kept  opposite,  that 
make  a  noise  all  night,  wat  I  cannot  sleep. 

How  did  captain  Baillie  behave  to  the  pen-* 
sioners  ? — ^He  nas  behaved  like  a  father,  a  go- 
vernor, and  a  man,  that  would  do  us  all  the 
good  he  could. 

Lord  Dudley,  Was  the  cravat  you  have  on 
washed  at  the  Hospital  ? — ^No ;  it  is  a  cravat 
of  my  own;  I  pay  for  washing  it  myself. 

[Thomas  Rapley  withdrew.] 

Johft  Martom  called  upon  by  Captain  Baillie. 

A  short  debate  here  arose  respecting  the 
propriety  of  his  giving  evidence,  as  he  had  not 
been  summoned,  but  seen  accidentally  at  the 
bar  by  captain  Baillie,  taking  their  lordships' 
minutes  m  the  room  of  ^{r.  Gumey.  Re- 
solved, that  he  should  be  sworn,  and  examin- 
ed as  an  evidence. 

Mr.  Marsom,  will  you  give  an  account  to  the 
House  in  what  maimer  you  was  treated  at 
the  committee  at  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — My 
lords,  I  was  taken  down  to  Greenwich  to  at- 
tend a  committee,  to  take  notes  ror  captain 
Baillie ;  when  I  came  into  the  room,  I  was 
asked  who  I  was,  and  upon  my  informing 
them  I  was  a  short-hand  writer  come  to  take 
notes,  I  was  ordered  out  of  the  room. 

* 

Mr.  Morgan  called  in. 

Give  an  account  of  what  lord  Sandwich  di- 
rected you  to  say  to  the  committee. — ^I  don't 
recollect  I  had  any  instructions  firom  niy  lord 
Sandwich ;  I  never  saw  my  lord  Sandwich ; 
nor  was  I,  as  I  believe,  mstructed  by  any 
other  person  to  deliver  such  a  niessage  from 
my  lord  Sandwich.  The  conunittee  was  to 
enquire  into  tlie  conduct  of  some  of  the  gen- 
tlemen of  the  committee  who  were  not  in  the 
direction.  Memorials  were  given  in  to  the 
Admiralty,  mentioning  captam  Baillie's  pub- 
lication, and  praying  redress;  a  court  was 
called,  and  an  enquiry  directed.  As  to  ai^ 
thing  that  could  affect  lord  ^Sandwich,  I,  as 
coumd,  might  go  as  far,  as  to  say,  it  would  b« 
taking  up  uie  time  of  the  committee  to  aor 


885]       respecting  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Gretnmkh.        A.  D.  1778.  |1^ 

purpose,  because  I  thought  that  enquhy  bad  |  ranged  in  fhe  book;  I  myself  arranged  them ; 
not  to  do  with  my  lord  Sandwich.  and  I  affirm,  that  of  all  the  enquiries  I  ever 

By  whom  were  you  employed  ? — ^By  the  so- 


licitor of  the  Hospital.  I  wish  the  House  to 
permit  me  to  say  a  few  words  on  the  subject. 
A  book  was  laid  before  me,  by  the  solicitor  of 
the  Hospital ;  I  was  counsel  in  the  complaint 
of  the  beef;  and  afler  having  examined  into  a 
variety  of  charges,  and  knowing  the  allega- 
tions about  the  meat  were  false,  I  being  ac- 
^usinted  with  some  of  the  gentlemen  men- 
tiooed  in  that  book,  I  thought  the  publication 
was  malicious ;  it  was  put  into  the  hands  of 
these  gentlemen,  and,  I  believe,  into  the 
haods  of  a  lady  of  quality ;  and  they  were 
advised  to  seek  for  redress.  The  motions 
were  made  in  the  court  of  King's-bench ;  they 
were  made  at  ail  events  before  the  committee 


({umes 
saw,  none  was  ever  conducted  with  more  so- 
lemnity, justice,  or  impartiality. 

You  say  Mr.  Adams  gave  great  approbatioR 
of  every  thing  done  by  Mr.  Mylne;  did  you 
ever  observe  m  Westminster-hall  that  archi- 
tects were  willing  to  support  architects .? ^I 

don't  remember  tSat  they  nave  veiy  warmly. 

Have  you  ever  known  Uiem  find  fkult  with 
one  another  ? — ^I  think  I  have. 

Did  you  go  into  the  infirmary  with  the 
committee? — ^I  did  not  go  into  the  infirmary, 
nor  do  I  believe  the  committee  went ;  butAn*^ 
Stuart,  Mr.  Mylne,  and  I  think  the  physician 
and  surgeon,  and  perhaps  another  person  at- 
tending, made  very  full  enquiry  uito  the  man- 
ner in  which  the  infirmary  was. built;  and 


deteimined;   I  had  then  a  book  laid  before    they  said  every  thing  was  done  that  could  be 
me  by  the  Admiralty,  directing  an  enquiry;    ^       i— -i--  -i-^ii 
upon  which  I  took  a  large  folio  Book;  captain 
BuUie  having  arranged  his  matter  according 
to  bis  own  method,  sometimes  taking  up  one 
part,  then  another,  I  took  and  arranged  the 
sevoal  charges  under  the  names  of  the  per- 
sons charged  {    I  arran^d  all  the  matters 
against  the  directors,  as  directors ;  I  attended 
as  ootmsel,  not  fw  the  diirectors,  but  the  gen- 
tlemen concerned  in  that  book;   and,   my 
lords,  I  do  say,  there  never  was  an  enquiry 
made  with  more  solemnity,  justice,  and  im- 
partiality ;  all  the  chaiges  captain  Baillie  had 
made  in  his  book  were  taken  one  after  ano- 
ther ;  the  charges  were  read,  sometimes  by  the 
cbaiiiiian,  sometimes  by  the  clerk ;   captain 
fiaillie  was  called  upon  to  produce  his  evi^ 
dcncc  to  every  part  ot  the  charge ;  there  never 
vas  an  evidence  offered  by  captun  Baillie  pro- 
per to  the  point  in  question ;  Uiere  never  was 
a  witness  called  by  captaui  Baillie  to  support 
the  charges  by  legal  evidence,  that  was  refus- 
ed; but  when  captain  Baillie  could  not  make 
oot  his  charges,  the  eternal  clamotu-was  about 
bull  beef  and  bad  small  beer.    Captain  Baillie 
^^pramised  to  be  heard;  and  he  was  heard  in 
every  charge,  but  was  not  able  to  substantiate 
one  piece  of  evidence  against  the  gentlemen ; 
I  told  the  g^tlemen  for  whom  I  was  concern- 
ed, that  if  any  of  the  charges  should  come  out 
d{^8t  them,  I  would  never  attend  again; 
but  I  said  1  would  not  admit  evidence  that 
^as  illegal ;  when  captain  BaiUie  had  not  es- 
tablisheo  -his  charges,  they  would  sometimes 
ento'  into  a  defence,  before  a  charge  was  es- 
tablished;  Mr.  Adaons  having  gone  through 
the  most  part  of  the  Hospital,  and  inspected 
every  thii^,  he  said,  had  he  been  clerk  of  the 
works,  and  been  to  advise,  he  should  have  ad- 
"vised  to  be  done  what  had  been  done ;  the 
coounittee  went  throu^  every  part  of  the 
complaiBts ;    they  ezanuned  the  wards  of  the 
HosDitai;  they  examined  the  staurs;  I  donl 
recollect  that  there  was  a  thing  in  the  Hospi- 
tal that  they  did  not  examine,  m>m  the  foun- 
dalioQ  to  the  top  of  the  Hospital,  and  even 
went  out  upon  Uie  roof,  I  myself  attending 
Ibem ;  thm  was  not  a  cb^e  but  was  ar- 


done  by  the  skill  of  man ;  in  fiict  there  was  a 
place  where  some  idle  people  had  trundled 
their  mops,  and  there  was  some  damage  done 
to  the  walls  and  the  floor. 

Then  vou  made  a  mistake  in  saying  they 
examined  every  place,  and  that  you  attended; 
you  must  except  that } — ^I  am  very  ready  so 
to  do. 

Whether  the^  were  desired  to  go  to  the  in- 
firmary } — ^I  believe  not. 

Did  they  read  the  letters  of  complaints  from 
the  officers  of  the  infirmary  to  Mr.  Mylne  ? — 
I  don't  recollect  any  evidence  of  complaints 
made  by  the  officers  to  Mr.  Mylne. 

This  committee  you  say  was  carried  on 
with  the  greatest  oraer;  do  you  recollect  any 
case  enquired  into  in  any  court  of  justice, 
where  the  plaintiff's  matter  was  arranged  into 
evidence  by  the  counsel  on  the  other  side  ?-— 
All  the  arrangement  was  putting  the  charge 
against  every  person  under  his  name  regu- 
larly, as  captain  Baillie  had  stated  them;  uie 
charge  agunst  Mr.  Mylne  tmder  his  name, 
and  against  every  gentleman  for  whom  I  at- 
tended. 

Whether  in  your  practice  in  Westminster- 
hall  you  ever  knew  that  a  complainant's 
complaint  was  ever  arranged  by  the  counsel 
oh  the  other  side  ? — I  conceive  no  case  ever 
came  before  a  court  of  justice  similar  to  this ; 
and  I  think  it  would  be  much  to  the  advan- 
tage and  ease  of  courts  of  justice  to  arrange 
the  evidence  on  both  sides :  I  have  seen  the 
judges  at  the  Old-Bailey  much  at  a  loss  in 
calling  witnesses,  because  there  was  nobody 
to  arrange  them. 

Suppose  Mr.  Morgan  was  called  upon  as 
counsel  on  one  side,  and  Mr.  Dimning  on  the 
other,  would  Mr.  Morgan  advise  that  Mr. 
Dunning  should  arrange  his  client's  evidence  ? 
— Certainly  not. 

Suppose  an  enquiry  into  the  conduct  of 
Greenwich  Hospital,  would  Mr.  Morgan  ad- 
vise his  client  to  submit  his  case,  to  be  ar- 
ranged into  evidence  by  the  counsel  on  the 
.other  side  ? — Certainly  not ;  but  I  submitted 
it  to  the  directors. 

If  you  had  been  counsel  for  captam  BaiUioi 


18  GJBORGE  IIL  The  Can  i^Captmn  Thcmas  BaUUe,         [888 

down  what  he  had  said ;  and  the  clerk  said 
he  set  down  nothine  but  what  he  was  direct^ 
cd } — Much  was  said  that  was  not  proper  evi- 
dence ;  and  I  directed  what  was  evidence  to 
be  set  down,  and  not  what  was  not  legal  tevv 
dence.  .  ** 

Do  you  recollect  the  circumstance  of  the 
witness  savins;  that  he  had  given  evidence 
of  a  man  that  nad  not  been  at  sea^  and  it  was 
not  put  down  ? — I  don't  recollect  Uiat. 

Tnere  was  mention  made  that  some  person 
offered  in  evidence  at  the  court,  that  a  person 
had  not  been  at  sea ;  captain  Baillie  observed, 
when  he  came  to  hear  it  a^ain,  that  that  was 
not  set  down  ? — There  might  be  an  observe^ 
tion  of  that  kind ;  but  whether  an  officer  had 
been  at  sea  or  no,  was  not  a  part  of  the  en- 
({uiry  before  the  committee,  and  I  might  ob- 
ject to  it. 

Was  there  any  evidence  (that  landmen  had 

{)laces  in  the  Hospital)  objected  to? — Thut 
andmen  had  places  in  the.  Hospital  was  a 
subject  of  complaint  in  captain  Baillie's  book; 
but  this  enquiry  was  directed  on  the  conduct 
of  individuals  and  the  conduct  of  the  di- 
rectors, and  not  whether  landmen  were  in  the 
Hospital. 

From  whence  did  you  take  the  business  of 
the  court  of  enquiry  to  arise  ? — From  the  com- 
plaints made ;  I  understood  a  memorbd.  came 
from  Mr.  Stuart,  Mr.  Cooke,  Mr.  MyLae,  and 
others,  to  the  Admiral^,  saying,  that  captaia 
Baillie  had  published  a  book  impeaching  their 
conduct,  and  befl^^ng  an  enquiry  might  be  set 
on  foot,  and  their  conduct  examined  into; 
that  the  council  of  the  house,  whose  conduct 
was  called  in  question,  had  likewise  sent  up 
to  the  Admiralty  a  memorial,  requesting  the 
same  enquiry  respecting  them.  I  believe 
those  two  memorials,  and  those  only,  were 
the  foundation  of  that  enquiry. 

Did  Mr.  Morgan  never  liappen  to  read  the 
order  by  which  the  committee  was  appcHUted  ? 
— ^I  beheve  I  did. 

Do  you  recollect  the  substance  of  the  order  ? 
— ^I  do  not. 

Have  you  been  directinjg  the  manner  of 
proceedings,  without  knowmg  the  substance 
of  the  order  ? — If  I  read  the  oraer,  it  cannot  be 
supposed  I  could  advise  Uie  committee  to  pass 
over  any  subject  they  ou^ht  to  enquire  into ; 
I  desired  they  should  go  mto  every  enquiry 
thejr  could  l^ally  go  into,  on  that  order ;  aa  I 
originally  said,  complaints  came  to  the  AdhoK 
ralty,  and  an  enquiry  was  directed ;  and,  I 
apprehend,  the  committee  had  no  right  to  en- 
amre  into  any  thing,  but  only  what  respeded 
the  persons  making  the  complaiDt. 

Do  you  understud,  that  the  grounds  of  it 
was  the  complaint  agunst  ca|&in  BaiUief 
You  don't  mead  the  matter  of  which  he  com- 
plains ? — ^The  House  is  examining  me  to  an 
order  that  I  have  not  read  many  months^  that 
I  have  no  remembrance  of;  my  jiidf^nent 
was,  that  they  had  no  right  to  make  anyotber 
enquiry  than  what  th^  did. 

Then,  1  think,  you  my,  the  committee  coo- 


187] 

would  you  have  advised  him  to  have  it 
ranged  by  the  counsel  on  the  other '  side  ? — 
Suppose  I  was  counsel  on  the  other  side,  and 
the  counsel  for  jny  clients  had  arranged  the 
evidence  as  I  did,  I  would  have  looked  at  the 
arrangement,  but  would  not  have  <A)jected  to 
it  Captain  Baillie  was  shewn  the  names, 
and  the  order  of  Ule  persons,  and  told,  the 
chaises  are  taken  from  your  own  book. 

WheUier  if  you  had  been  counsel  for  cap- 
tain Baillie,  you  would  have  thought  justice 
had  been  done  him,  if  the  counsel  on  the 
other  side  had  arranged  his  accusation  con- 
irary  to  his  opinion? — If  the  counsel  on  the 
other  side  had  arranged  the  charges  in  such  a 
manner  that  the  end  of  the  enquiry  could  not 
be  obtained,  I  should  object  to  it. 

You  directed  the  rules  against  captain  Bail- 
lie  va  Westminster-hall  ? — Yes. 

The  event  was  not  lucky,  I  believe,  to  your 
clients } — ^The  rule  was  discharged  with  costs ; 
it  came  out  that  no  books  were  delivered  but 
to  the  governors  and  commissioners. 

You  were  employed  by  individual*— Whom? 
— ^The  solicitor  of  the  Hospital  employed  me 

fenerally ;  when  I  came  to  look  into  the  book, 
took  the  names  of  the  individuals,  and  con-' 
sidered  myself  as  their  counsel. 

With  regard  to  the  practice  of  courts,  did 
Mr.  Morsan  ever  know  any  courts  of  justice 
that  shoiud  make  a  report  when  no  one  of  the 
members  attended  every  day? — I  am  glad  I 
am  reminded  of  that  circumstance ;  it  is  said 
we  attended  seven  days ;  I  think  Mr.  Cust 
attended  six  out  of  the  seven  days.  There  was 
not  a  piece  of  evidence  ^iven  (and  I  will  bee 
to  say  the  committee  received  evidence,  which 
I  knew  not  to  be  legal  evidence  agsdnst  my 
clients,  which  I  did  not  object  to,  knowins  the 
uprightness  of  their  intentions ;)  no  evidence 
was  given,  but  what  was  put  down,  and  it  was 
read  over  to  the  witness,  smd  he  was  not  per- 
mitted to  go  out  till  it  stood  in  his  own  words. 

Whether  you  ever  knew  a  court  of  justice 
or  enquiry  making  a  renort  where  no  one 
member  attended  every  day? — My  lords,  the 
king's  justices  have  given  their  opinion  in  a 
case  where  the  rest  of  the  judges  haa  not  heard 
all  the  argument;  but  it  has  been  delivered 
to  thein  trom  the  other  judges. 

It  has  been  mentioned  that  Mr.  Cust  should 
say  that  captain  Baillie  should  be  heard  at  the 
end  of  the  enquiry  ? — I  believe  I  can  explain 
that  observation ;  when  we  were  enquiring  in 
a  charge  against  Mr.  Stuart,  he  would  be  talk- 
ing of  the  charge  against  Mr.  Cooke ;  it  was 
said,  do  be  so  kind  to  keep  to  the  point  before 
the  committee;  we  will  hear  you  to  that 
char  ft  when  we  come  to  his  case. 

Did  you  hear  captain  Baillie  at  the  end  of 
the  enquiry,  when  he  desired  to  be  heard? — 
J  believe  he  did  reauire  to  be  heard  sev^al 
times  at  the  end,  out  it  was  to  charges  that 
they  had  done  with,  and  made  their  resolution. 

As  every  thing  was  set  down  in  the  words 
of  the  witnesses,  did  it  not  appear  that  one 
witoess  stated  that  you  had  omitted  to  set 


239]        retpeciing  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Greentoich.  A.  D.  1778. 


[290 


ducted  themselves  right ;  I  ask,  in  particular, 

whether  if  the  order  was  to  enouire  into  the 
{;rouDds-of  the  complaint  made  hy  captain 
BiilHe,  whether  it  was  not  to  enquire  into  the 
principal  points? — I  should  think  not;  the 
compkint  was  by  persons  who  complained  of 
being  attacked  by  captain  Baillie.  ^ 

If  the  order  of  the  committee  had  been  to 
enquire  into  matters  of  complaints,  of  par- 
ticular persons,  you  might  be  right ;  but  the 
order  was  gpnerail ;  do  you  recollect  that  ? — If 
Tou  axe  asking  my  judgment,  I  apprehend  the 
lords  of  the  Amnuulty  had  not  a  right  to 
order  a  conunitt^  to  enquire  into  that  matter. 

But  suppose  they  did,  whether  it  was  right 
or  no  f— Then  I  don't  think  the  committee 
had  power  to  enquire  into  it.  I  said  before, 
there  were  two  memorials  came  up  to  the 
Admiralty;  the  body  of  the  directors  were 
reflected  on ;  there  were  two  bodies ;  one  of 
the  bodies  contained  some  of  the  directors ; 
ail  the  charges  respecting  the  directors,  I  be- 
Here,  were  arranged  and  enquired  into.* 

Where  would  nave  been  tne  illegality  of  it, 
if  the  court  had  enquired  into  and  reported, 
that  according  to  the  charter,  no  persons  but 
aea&ring  men  had  a  right  to  such  and  such 
employments? — ^I  apprehend  two  answers 
nay  tie  given  to  it,  that  the  appointment  of 
knamen  is  rieht^  according  to  the  charter; 
and  if  they  haa  given  an  authority  to  a  com- 
n^ttee  to  enquire  into  it,  they  would  have  eh- 
qmred  into  a  nugatory  act. 

It  is  not  what  the  committee  had  a  right  to 
doL  but  what  they  were  ordered  to  do  ? — My 
judgment  then  was,  and  now  is,  that  what- 
ever the  board  of  Admiralty  directed  to  en- 
quire into,  ihe  app<nntment  of  landmen  would 
have  been  an  improper  direction;  and  my 
opinba  is,  they  had  not  a  power  to  enquire 
intoit 

If  the  Admirahv  had  given  an  order,  would 
they  not  have  haid  power? — ^I  apprehcsod  not 

Boat  you  recollect  the  order? — ^No,  I  do 
nyt;  I  ulDulerstood  that  the  memorials  sent  to 
the  AdauraJty  were  read,  and  when  the  com- 
mittee was  appointed,  the  substance  of  the 
complaint,  mentioning  those  who  had  com- 
pbi&edy  was  meatkmed  in  the  order;  and 
these  persons  were  appointed  to  enquire. 

The  following  resolution  of  the  general 
court,  of  the  14th  of  April,  1778,  read  by  Jdr. 
Moi^:  << Resolved^  Thai  a  committee  be 
appointed  to  enquire  mto  the  grounds  of  the 
Kveral  charees  contained  in  captain  BaiUie's 
hook.''  While  I  am  reading  ttie  ord^r,  the 
Bouse  will  ftrnut  me  to  obt^rve,  that  I  con- 
flder  these  wofds,  ^  the  several  charges  con^ 
^led  in  captain  Baillie's  book,''  to  be  a  rela^ 
tive^and  the  antecedoit  to  be  the  two  me^ 
aunab  sent  up  to  the  Admiralty. 

Do  tmi  mean  the  chaiged  agamst  captain 
wlis  f— I  meant  no  such  thuag,  in  the  evi^ 


*  TWehtinMa  of  tin  oonBiillM;«id  or 

MMi  *Mtr  Boae  of  the  ohufaa  agsinir  tN  dirao- 
t«tw«iaM|aiN4iirto.    Otig^MHU   , 

VOL  XXL 


dence;  complaints  came  to  the  Admiralty, 
from  certain  specific  persons ;  they  say  charges 
are  made  a^iinst  tnem  in  captain  Baillie*» 
book ;  the  order  is,  to  enquire  into  charges ; 
what  charges  ?  The  charges  against  the  per- 
sons complaining ;  and,  at  their  particular  re- 
quest, this  committee  was  established ;  not  to 
enquire  if  lord  Sandwich  put  landmen  into 
the  office,  but  the  charges  against  those  men; 
we  beg  you  will  direct  an  enquiry  into  the 
charges  made  against  us. 

Is  there  any  word  said  of  that  in  the  order  ? 
— That  is  my  judgment. 

Do  you  understand  the  order? — ^I  thought 
I  did. 

You  do  now? — ^I  think  I  do.  ♦ 

Does  that  order  say  any  thing  about  your  . 
judgment  or  memorials  delivered  to  the  Ad« 
miralty  ? — ^That  I  cannot  tell,  that  memorials 
are  mentioned.  [Reads  the  order  again  tl 
<<  Resolved,  That  a  committee  be  appointed 
tOu  enquire  into  the  grounds  of  the  several 
charges  contained  in  captain  Baillie's  book.*' 

"  The  several  complaints  ;**  those  are  the 
words  you  rested  upon  ? — I  did. 

Does  the  several  complaints  mean  the  se- 
veral charges  containeci  in  captain  Baillie's 
book? — ^I  understand  Uie  complaints;  the 
complaints  of  those  that  appliea  to  the  Ad- 
mirsdty. 

Do  you  understand  the  several  charges  in 
captain  Baillie*s  book  to  mean  all  the  charges ; 
or  that  it  means  partial  charges,  to  be  inter- 
preted by  you  ? — In  this  j^ace,  I  understand, 
It  only  means  the  charges  made  against  the 
persons  complaining  to  the  Admiralty,  on 
this  occasion  ;  I  conceive,  under  different  cir- 
cumstances, different  constructions  may  be 
put  upon  the  same  words ;  if  the  order  was 
made  by  this  House,  I  should .  suppose  the 
words  would  mean  the  charges  in  general ; 
but  in  an  order  from  the  A&iralty,  not  un- 
derstanding the  law,  they  meant  only  the 
charges  against  the  persons  complaining. 

Then  it  was  a  mistake  in  the  Admiralty  ? — 
No ;  I  think  there  was  no  mistake^ 

What  then;  was  it  ignorance ?— -Neither 
mistake  nor  ignorance ;  I  think  the  words  ex* 
tremely  improper ;  and  think  the  committee 
would  have  oone  very  wrong,  to  enter  into 
any  other  inquiry  than  they  did. 

You  talk  of  your  clients;*  do  you  mean 
those  who  sat  at  the  committee  ? — Certainly 
not. 

.Whether  you  were  the  counsel  employed, 
with  regard  to  the  first  prosecution  against 
captain  Baillie,  at  Westnunster-hall  ?— 3  was 
in  that :   I  advised  a  motion  and  information; 

In  what  year  and  month  was  it  you  advised 
the  carryiin  on  this  prosecution  ? — ^I  don't  re- 
membor;  I  believe  the  application  was  made 
to  the  court  of  King's-b^h,  soon  after  the 
book  came  out.         [Mr.  Morgan  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Ibbetton  called  in. 

I  want  to  have  the  report  of  the  committee ; 
by  what  wims  is  il signed?— By  Mr,  Oust 
U 


S91] 


IS  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaOUe^  [392 


and  Mr.  Barker,  who  acted  as  chairmen  of 
the  committee,  with  their  names  only.  [The 
report  was  produced.] 

[Mr.  Ibbetson  withdrew.] 
Adjourned  to  Monday  week. 


Monday,  May  3, 1779. 

JLieutenant  Gordon,  First  Lieutenant  of  the 
Hospital,  called  in. 

Had  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  any  conversation 
with  you  ? — ^The  answer  I  must  give  is  this, 
that  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  came  to  my  apart- 
ment o;i  Thursday  the  25th  of  March,  1778, 
and  informed  me,  that  there  was  a  book 
printed,  which  was  rather  defamatory  to  the 
officers  of  the  royal  foundation  and  the  navy. 
My  lords,  I  begged  leave  to  give  him  for  an- 
swer, that  I  could  say  nothing  to  it.  It  was 
the  first  of  my  receiving  the  intelligence  of 
any  such  book,  and  therefore  could  give  no 
answer  to  it;  he  told  me  further,  that  there 
was  an  intention  to  form  a  memorial  against 
the  lieutenant  governor  of  the  house,  which  I 
told  him,  I  thought  was  not  right;  I  there- 
fore told  him  further,  I  could  say  nothing  to 
the  book,  until  such  time  as  I  had  seen  it  and 
read  it,  and  read  what  the  book  narrated  to : 
this  was  my  answer ;  he  said,  that  he,  and 
'  some  more  of  the  officers,  proposed  to  present 
a  memorial  against  the  late  lieutenant  gover- 
nor (captain  Sailhe)  of  the'  house :  1  told  him 
I  thousnt  he  did  wron^ ;  I  should  certainlv, 
when  f  came  to  hear  it,  if  it  did  not  coincide 
with  my  opinion,  I  should  give  my  negative 
to  it;  this  was  my  answer,  and  my  positive 
answer. 

Whether  Mr.  Cooke  represented  that  book 
as  injurious  to  lord  Sandwich,  and  to  the 
paval  officers  of  the  Hospital  ? — He  did  repre- 
sent it  as  iniurious  to  the  first  noble  lord  of 
the  Admiralty,  and  as  injurious  to  the  naval 
officers ;  this  upon  my  oam  I  declare. 

Did  you  ask  Mr.  Cooke  to  shew  you  that 
book  ? — ^I  did,  and  he  positively  denied  it ;  he 
had  a  letter  in  his  hand,  and  wrapped  it  round 
his  finder ;  he  said,  he  had  it  from  the  noble 
lord,  the  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty ;  I  begged 
the  fJEtvour  to  see  it ;  he  said  he  could  not  let 
me  see  it. 

Were  you  solicited  to  join  in  complaint 
•gainst  the  book,  at  the  same  time  that  Mr. 
Cooke  refused  to  shew  you  the  book  ? — I  was 
solicited;  I  told  him  I  woukl  do  no  such 
thing ;  I  thought  it  rather  a  nugatory  and  de- 
^unatoiy  thing,  with  remd  to  the  aeoond 
officer  commanding  that  Royal  Hospital. 

Did  Mr.  Cooke  make  use  of  any  means  to 
induce  you  to  come  into  his  proposals  of  sisn- 
ing  this? — ^He  did  solicit  me  to  come  into  nis 
oropoaals,  and  I  absolutely  refused  it;  I  told 
him  1  thoug^ht  it  a  wrong  method,  mA.  wrong 
system  in  him,  as  a  clergyman,  to  promote 
such  a  thing  to  be  introduced  against  a  second, 
•nd  chief  commanding  officer  at  the  time. 
.    Did  he  say  any  tmng  of  captain  fiaillie's 


having  any  intention  of  turning  ^ou  out  of 
your  apartments? — He  did  mention  such  a 
thing,  out  I  told  him  I  did  not  believe  it,  be- 
cause I  had  never  seen  the  book,  nor  knew 
nothing  of  what  the  book  contained. 

With  what  view  did  it  appear  to  you,  that 
^r.  Cooke  did  mention  to  you,  that  captain 
Baillie  had  intended  to  turn  you  out  of  your 
apartments  ? — lie  told  me  it  was  to  make 
room  for  more  wards  for  the  pensioners ;  I 
said,  Mr.  Cooke,  in  regard  to  that,  I  have 
nothing  to  say ;  whatever  the  lords  conunis^ 
sionersof  the  Admiralty's  pleasure  is,  I,  as  an 
officer  in  that  house,  must  comoly  with. 

Did  Mr.  Cooke  say  he  had  oeen  round  to 
all  the  officers,  to  complain  against  captain 
Baiilie  ? — Yes ;  excepting  obtain  Allwri^ht, 
lieutenant  Lefevre,  lieutenant  Kerr,  and  heu- 
tenant  Ansell. 

Wheti  the  complaint  was  proposed  at  the 
council,  did  you  sign  it  or  object  to  it  ? — ^I  ob- 
jected positively  to  it,  and  I  said,  it  was  a 
wrong  system  and  method  in  them  to  crimi- 
nate a  commanding  officer,  without  any  just 
offence ;  I  told  them  all  so  at  the  time. 

By  whom  vras  the  book  produced  ? — Bjr 


captain  Maplesden,  the  now  lieutenant  go«- 

of  3ie 
house. 


s  — 1 »     

vemor,  who  was  then  first  ^^p»«m 


Was  the  complaint  made  an  act  of  council 
of  the  house,  or  made  an  entry  in  the  minute 
book? — I  ODJected  to  it;  they  proposed  to 
make  it  a  minute  of  council^  but  Mr.  Cooke 
the  night  before  said,  that  it  should  not  be 
made  an  act  of  council,  but  brought  in  afVer 
the  council  was  over ;  I  told  him  at  the  same 
time,  Sir,  I  think  you  are  wrong,  you  are  to 
do  as  you  please. 

Was  any  attempt  made  to   put  captain 

Baillie  out  of  the  chair  at  the  council  ? — -Yes  ; 

Mr.  Godby,  the  steward,  and  the  rev.  Mr. 

j  Maule,  second  chaplain,  made  the  attempt  to 

•  put  him  out  of  the  chair ;  I  opposed  it  with 

I  all  my  might  and  main,  nobody  else  seconded 

it,  therefore  it  dropped. 

1     Was  that  seconded  by  any  of  the  aava) 
officers  ? — ^Not  one. 

Is  there  any  party  or  faction  of  Um^lna^tf 
existing  in  the  council  of  the  Hospital? — A 
very  great  faction  and  party ;  may  I  presume 
to  mention  them  ? 

Certainly. — ^In  the  first  place,  John  Ibbet* 
son,  secretary  to  the  board  of  directors,  and  a 
clerk  of  the  Admiralty ;  there  is  John  Cooke» 
the  first  chaplain,  John  Godby,  the  steward, 
and  the  rev.  John  Maule  the  second  chaplain, 
Francis  Cook,  the  deputy  8ecretaiy,and  many 
others  of  the  land  faction. 

Do  you  observe  that  these  gentlemen  act 
together,  and  in  opposition  to  what  comes 
from  the  naval  d^Nurtment? — ^I  do  ofW. 

Do  you  constantly  attend  the  council  ? — ^I 
do  not ;  the  reason  is,  there  is  such  a  land 
faction  got  into  the  council  now,  whenever 
they  have  any  point  to  carry,  they  take  care 
to  have  fdl  their  friends  there ;  and  it  is  ous* 
ternary,  my  lords^  .in  that  council,  tba4  the 


S9S)       relucting  ^  Royal  Ho^nioi  oi  Gremnich.        A.  D.  1778. 


[394 


JDoioroflicen)  as  at  comrts  martial,  give  their 

voice  first;  myreasofn  for  not  attemling  the 

eooDcil  is,  hecnise  ^at  land  faction  makes  a 

party;  and  let  all  the  naval  department  do 

what  thej  please,  they  over-rule  us. 
Has  captain  Bailhe  appeared  a  friend  to  the 

aaval  establishment?— There  never  was  a 
fctfaer  of  a  family  more  tender  of  pensioners 
than  he  has  been. 

Has  he  acted  with  diligence  and  propriety 
m  his  office  as  lieutenant  governor  ? — ^Aiways 
SDte  I  had  the  honour  to  be  in  the  council, 
viyi  great  diligence  and  propriety,  and  as  a 
figilaiit  active  officer. 

Are  the  men's  shoes  and  stockings  ade- 
(joate  to  the  purpose  of  three  pair  to  last  two 
years  ?— They  are  not  adequate  to  the  appoint- 
nient. 

Have  you  read  captain  Bullie's  book? — 
No,  I  have  not ;  I  have  never  seen  it. 

Whether  in  the  coimcil  of  the  house  the 
fflifitaiy  officers  out-number  what  you  call 
theftcbon,  or  whether the^  do  not? — ^They 
do  out-number  the  land  faction,  but  the  huid 
Action  woriE  over  the  military  officers  to 
their  side  of  the  question. 

Are  there  more  military  officers  in -the 
council  of  the  house  than  land  officers  ? — 
There  are  more  military  than  land,  but  the 
hod  officers  of  late  have  got  such  a  superin-^ 
Vsukujj  that  they  over-rule  all  the  military 
oioers,  for  we  are  thought  nothing  of  in  the 
bouse,  but  the  land  officers. 

If  the  military  officers  attended,  would  not 
diey  out-vote  the  land  faction  ? — I  don't  know 
that  they  would. 

How  nuuoy  military  officers  are  there  of  the 
ttwncil?— Tlic  governor,  lieutenant  governor, 
four  captains,  and  eight  lieutenants ;  these 
are  all  the  military  officers  that  I  know  of^ 
the  rest  are  all  land  officers. 

How  many  are  there  of  the  civil  interest; 
what  YOU  call  the  land  faction? — The  secre- 
tary of  the  board  of  directors,  two  chaplains, 
the  ste?rard,  and  several  others  of  the  land 
Action. 

Go  on  to  name  them  all ;  you  have  named 
but  four.— The  clerk  of  the  cheque  has,  I  be- 
Here,  been  a  seafiuing  man  ;  and  then^  is  the 
physkian,  he  is  of  the  council,  a  civil  officer ; 
the  auditor  is  likewise  a  civil  officer ;  he  is  of 
the  council. 

Is  the  clerk  of  the  cheque  of  the  council  ? 
—No,  he  is  not. 

There  are  fourteen  of  the  council,  if  I  un- 
derstand you  right,  that  are  military  officers  ? 
—I  cannot  charge  my  memory  exactly. 

You  have  named  fourteen. — ^I  named  the 
g^emor,  lieutenant  governor,  four  captains, 
>ad  eight  lieutenants. 

They  are  fourteen  military  officers;  who 
vt  there  that  are  not  milit^  officers,  that 
y  of  the  council? — ^Mn  Godby  one,  the 
J"P»aid ;  Mr.  Ibbetson  two ;  Mr.  Cooke,  the 
Wl  claplain,  three ;  Mr.  Maule,  the  second 
^^hapbm,  four;  the  auditor  five.  Theysocon- 
wve  it  when  they  have  any  method  to  cacry . 


Go  on  to  mention  the  names ;  is  the  clerk 
of  the  cheque  of  the  council? — ^No. 

There  are  in  the  council,  14  military  officers, 
and  five  of  the  land  faction ;  how  is  it  possi- 
ble then,  that  the  land  faction  should  prepon-- 
derate  in  council,  if  the  military  officers  would 
attend  ? — Because  the  land  gentry,  as  I  call 
them,  that  is  what  is  called  the  civil  interests, 
but  I  know  no  such  interests  at  Greenwich 
Hospital,  nor  ever  understood  there  was  any 
such  interest  at  Greenwich  Hospital,  as  a  civil 
interest ;  that,  by  their  party  and  faction,  they 
cajole  the  naval  officers  over  to  their  side. 

That  is  to  say,  the  land  faction,  with  their 
friends,  carry  every  thing. — They  do. 

Is  it  looked  upon  in  Greenwich  Hospital, 
that  an  officer  is  most  likely  to  get  preferment 
by  siding  with  the  naval  officers,  or  the  land 
faction  ? — ^I  believe  with  the  land  faction ;  be- 
cause they  carry  so  much  weight  with  the 
noble  lord  who  presides  so  much  at  the  Ad- 
miralty board ;  there  they  have  great  weight. 

The  Earl  of  Sandwich,  What  reason  have 
you  to  suppose,  that  any  of  those  gentlemen 
carry  great  weight  with  the  first  lord  of  the 
Admiralty ;  do  you  know  any  thing  of  that, 
of  your  own  knowledgie  ?  I  oesire  you  to  an- 
swer that  question,  upon  your  oath.  Do  you 
know,  of  your  own  knowledge,  whether  any 
of  the  land  &ction  of  the  council,  have  ai^y 
influence  with  the  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty  ? 
— I  cannot  say,  upon.my  oath,  that  I  can  say 
so ;  but  I  have  often  heard  it  said  so.  I  can* 
not  say,  I  know  it  of  my  own  knowledge ; 
but  I  luLve  oflen  heard  it  said  so ;  and,  by  the 
manoeuvres  that  have  been  made  in  the  house, 
I  do  think  it  is  so. 

Do  you  think  it  is  so  imagined  in  the 
houise? — ^It  is  so  imagined  in  the  house; 
greaUy  so.      [Lieutenant  Gordon  withdrew.] 

William  Gough  called  in. 

What  is  your  station  in  Greenwich  Hos« 
pitai? — I  ma  a  boatswain  there  some  time 
ago. 

What  are  you  now  ? — A  common  pensioner. 

What  is  the  reason  that  you  were  a  boat- 
swain before,  and  are  now  no  longer  so? — ^At 
a  committee  held  at  Greenwich  Hospital  some 
time  ago,  T  was  sent  fi^r  there  by  lieutenant- 
governor  Baillie,  to  answer  some  questions 
which  might  be  asked  me ;  in  waiting  on  the 
outside,  I  saw  a  brother  pensioner  there,  very 
officious  in  taking  his  hat  off  every  five  or  six 
minutes  to  people  that  passed  and  repassed ; 
in  a  free  way,  I  said^  "  If  I  was  in  his  place, 
I  would  not  take  off  my  hat  so  often  to  every 
gentleman,  for  no  jgentleman  required  a  poor 
man  to  take  off  his  hat^  but  at  his  first  ap- 
proaching, or  while  talking  to  him.''  A  pub- 
lican, that  was  standing  by,  went  and  ac- 
quainted the  rev.  Mr.  Ck)oke  of  what  passed  ; 
he  came,  beckoned  with  his  finger  "  You. 
you.*'  I  asked  him  If  he  meant  me  ?  He  sua 
he  did ;  we  withdrew  a  little  way  firom  the 
place;  he  said,  <<  I  understand  vou  have 
spokoi  some  disrespectful  words  of  me.'*    I 


295] 


1 8  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thmas  BaOke,  [296 


said,  I  did  not.  Said  he,  «  What  did  you  say 
to  such  a  man  {"  (one  White).  I  said,  I  told 
him  if  I  was  in  his  place,  I  would  not  take  off 
my  hat  so  often  to  any  body  as  he  did.  He 
said,  ^  I  was  an  impudent  old  scoundrel,  and 
was  guUty  of  faults.'^  And  that  was  what  I 
was  dismissed  for. 

What  happened  in  consequence  of  this? 
Who  were  you  brousht  before? — At  six  o'clock 
the  same  evening,  I  was  sent  for  before  cap- 
tain Chads,  the  captain  of  the  week,  and 
this  White,  and  one  Herbert,  a  publican ;  they 
^vere  there  as  witnesses  to  what  I  had  said ;  I 
was  ordered  to  be  put  upon  the  complaint- 
book  for  being  disooedient  to  the  rev.  Mr. 
Cooke,  and  the  Friday  following  I  was  dis- 
missed irom  my  bread. 

By  whom  ? — ^The  council. 

What  enquiry  did  the  council  make  into 
this  business? — They  made  no  further  en- 
quiry than  heard  wfciat  was  laid  against  me, 
upon  the  complaint. 

Did  you  state  to  them,  that  you  had  sadd 
not'hinjg  more  than  this? — I  said  no  more  than 
that;  but  I  meant  no  harm  nor  disrespect  to 
any  gentleman  whatever. 
.  \Vas  nothing  more  than  that  stated  against 
you  ? — Not  to  my  knowledge. 

How  long  had  you  been  at  sea? — Forty 
years;  twenty-eight  years  in  his  majesty's 
service. 

Have  you  been  in  any  engs^ements  ? — Yes ; 
in  May  and  October  engagements,  1747,  with 
commissioner  Hanway;  he  was  a  captain 
-then;  aiid  I  was  at  the  taking  of  Thurot,  at 
Carrickfergus,  on  the  North  of  Ireland,  and 
the  Courageux ;  I  was  in  the  Brilliant  frigate 
at  that  titne^  and  have  been  at  sea  ever  since, 
till  I  came  into  Greenwich  Hospital. 

Is  there  any  nuisance  in  your  ward  at  Green- 
wich Hospital  ? — There  was  a  nuisance,  it  is 
there  I  suppose  still,  that  proceeded  ^m  a 
pipe  that  was  laid  down  from  the  top  of  the 
nouse,  into  a  pipe  that  was  erected  to  lead 
the  rain  water  into  the  common  sewer ;  and, 
through  the  means  of  a  pipe  being  laid  into 
it,  from  one  of  the  officer's  apartments,  it  oc- 
casioned a  nuisance  there. 
'  Has  captain  Baillie  supported  the  rights  of 
the  pensioners  ?  Is  he  a  friend  to  the  pen- 
sioners ?>^No  man  can  be  more  a  fnend  to 
them,  as  far  as  I  see,  than  what  he  has  been. 

What  ward  do  you  belong  to  at  present  ? — 
The  Namur  ward  at  present. 

Is  the  pipe  offensive  in  the  Namur  ward  ? 
— ^No ;  in  the  Jennings  ward,  when  I  was  a 
boatswain  in  that  place. 

Which  ward  is  the  pipe  a  nuisance  to? — 
To  the  Jennings  ward,  and  the  Royal  George 
Jlikewise ;  it  lays  down  through  both. 

[William  Gough  withdrew.] 

Alexander  Moore  called  in. 

What  employment  have  you  in  Greenwich 
Hospital  ? — Cook,  in  one  part  of  the  Hospital, 
lit  present.  . 
i   \Yere.you  the  person  tliat  made  the  first 


discovery  about  the  pensioners  being  served 
with  bull  beef? — ^Yes,  I  was. 

Did  you  take  much  pains  to  discover  that 
fraud  ? — Yes,  a  great  d«d. 

In  what  way? — I  often  spoke  to  the 
butcher's  men  to  stop  it;  and  niade  enquiries 
«what  the  contract  was  for  the  meat,  as  it  was 
bad  from  September  to  June.  I  then  went 
to  Captain  Baillie,  and  enquired  about  the 
contract  for  the  meat,  finding  it  to  go  on  in 
so  bad  proceedings ;  he  said  the  contract  was 
for  good  fat  ox  beef  and  wether  mutton. 
After  I  had  stopped  the  proceedings  of  it  on 
the  first  of  June,  as  I  observed  to  your  lord- 
ships, when  1  had  the  honour  to  be  at  your 
lordships*  bar  some  time  ago,  I  was  entreated 
by  several  of  the  officers  to  deny  there  had 
been  bull  beef  in  the  Hospital ;  and  after  that, 
the  steward  went  to  the  governor,  on  the  ISth 
of  June,  1775,  on  purpose  to  get  the  governor 
to  threaten  to  stop  the  proceedings.  I  went 
to  the  governor,  sir  Charles  Hardy ;  he  took 
me  into  the  parlour^  he  said  he  found  1  had 
known  the  meat -to  be  bad  some  time ;  I  said 
it  had  been  bad  ever  since  I  had  been  in  the 
Hospital ;  he  said  I  did  not  act  the  part  of  an 
honest  man,  not  to  inform  the  House  before ; 
I  told  him  I  did  not  know  any  thing  what  the 
contract  was,  but  as  soon  as  I  did  kaow  what 
it  was,  I  discovered  it ;  he  asked  me  who  told 
me  a^ut  the  contract,  I  said  the  lieutenant- 
governor;  I  said  there  were  no  instructions 
for  me  in  my  office ;  he  then  gave  me  ill  lan- 
guage; he  said  he  would  discharge  me  from 
the  office,  for  being  a  busy  fellow^  I  said  it 
would  be  hard  for  my  fiimily,  if  he  did  any 
thing  of  the  kind.  Coming  through  the  pas- 
sage I  made  an  excuse ;  I  told  his  honour  I 
should  be  glad  if  he  excused  me  from  any 
duty  of  that  kind ;  he  then  said,  I  must  tea 
the  steward  and  clerk  of  the  check,  and  take 
(iare  of  myself,  for  I  should  not  be  long  there. 
I  made  application  tothe  lords  of  the  Admi- 
ralty on  benalfof  myself  and  family;  I  have 
a  copy  of  the  letter  in  my  {Kjcket;  lord  Sand- 
wich bid  me  make  myself  easy,  and  |things 
should  be  enquired  into ;  I  apprehend,  if  csu>. 
tain  Baillie  had  not  taken  tne,  very  steps  he 
did,  that  there  never  would  have  been  a  pro- 
secution against  the  butcher,  or  any  thing 
else;  it  seemcxi  that  party  in  the  Hospital 
were  carrying  on  such  proceedings,  and  would 
to  this  day.  I  was  employed  by  the  solicitor 
of  the  house  for  two  years,  on  purpose  to 
bring  the  contractor  to  trial ;  I  took  all  the 
pains  I  could ;  I  believe  in  two  years,  I  went 
near  3,000  miles  upon  account  of  it. 

Did  sir  Charles  Hardy  reprimand  you,  and 
tell  you,  you  woidd  be  dismissed,  if  you  did 
not  take  care  of  yourself,  for  being  or  not 
being  a  busy  fellow  ?-^For  being  a  busy  ^- 
low,  and  troubling  myself  about  the  butcher'* 
meat ;  those  were  the  very  words. 

Had  you  any  •  conversation  with  the  rev. 
Mr.  Cooke  upon  this  subject? — ^In  August, 
I  think,  1777,  I  had  been  in  great  distress, 
the  ^liciter  of  the  house  had  told  me,  I  must 


93T]        respecting  tie  Royal  Hospital  at  GreenbAch.         A.  D.  1778. 


[298 


find  money  for  my  expcnces,  he  could  not 

g've  me  any  money :  it  would  be  called 
ibery^  but  when  the  trial  was  over  I  should 
be  paid.  I  had  a  family ;  I  made  applications; 
I  eot  naoney,  and  bore  all  ray  own  expeiices ; 
when  the  first  trial  was  over,  the  solicitor  paid 
me  10  out  of  19/.  I  applied  to  the  board 
for  money ;  I  was  distressed  and  troubled  se- 
veral times  by  the  people  I  borrowed  the  mo- 
ney of;  I  got  no  redress.  About  the  14th  of 
August,  1777, 1  happened  to  meet  Mr.  Ibbet- 
son  upon  the  walks ;  I  asked  him  in  what 
method  I  was  to  apply  to  get  my  money ;  he 
was  upon  that  account  affronted.  About  the 
15th,  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  sent  for  me.  and  said 
I  had  affronted  Mr.  Ibbetson;  and  if  I  did 
not  go  and  ask  his  pardon,  I  should  get  no 
recompence  at  a:ll ;  I  did  go.  In  the  course 
of  the  discourse,  Mr.  Cooke  happened  to  say, 
that  Mr.  Baillie  had  been  a,  very  troublesome 
fidlow  in  the  Hospital,  and  he  himself  had 
taken  care  tliat  he  had  lost  his  best  friend, 
and  he  might  get  him  as  he  could,  mentioning 
lord  Sandwich. 

Were  your  bills  of  expences  ever  paid  you  ? 
—Not  all. 

How  much  did  the  whole  amount  to  ? — For 
the  two  years  to  about  45/. 
.  Had  not  you  a  bill  of  .19/.  paid  you  ?  Did 
you  never  receive  any  thine  by  way  of  re- 
wwd? — I  had  10/.  paid  me,  iSler  I  had  made 
an  affidavit  before  justice  Russell,  a  justice 
of  the  peace.      [Alexander  Moore  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Cust  called  in. 

Whether  you  were  present  at  the  meeting 
of  the  general  court  of  Greenwich  HospitaH 
(the  first  meeting  I  think  it  was)  that  ordered 
the  odurt  of  enqmry  in  last  spring ;  in  April 
I  think  it  was? — ^Upon  my  word,  I  don't 
know;  )S  I  knew  what  business  was  done 
at  the  meeting,  I  could  tell  whether  I- was 
there. 

When  the  court  of  enquiry  was  ordered  ? — I 
believe  I  was  at  that  general  court 

Whether  you  were  not  the  person  that 
made  a  motion  there,  in  order  for  a  committee 
to  enquire  into  the  several  charges  contained 
in  captain  Bflillie's  printed  Case,  concerning 
Greenwich  Hospital  ? — Yes,  I  was. 

What  did  you  propose  by  that  motion,  and 
understand  to  be  the  purport  of  that  order? — 
I  understood  the  purport  of  that  order  to  be  to 
enquire  into  all  the  cnarges  contained  in  Mr. 
]^i}lie*s  book ;  and  I'  understood  that  those 
charges  consisted  of  three  parts,  as  they  ap- 
peared to  me  upon  reading  over  Mr.  Baillie*s 
book ;  the  first  part  was  s3>uses  in  the  Hospi- 
tal, from  three  to  ten  years,  that  had  a  great 
many  of  them  been  remedied ;  the  second 
was  abuses  subsisting  in  the  Hospital,  that 
Mr.  Baillie  thought  wanted  a  remedy;  and 
the  third  was,  what  appeared  to  me,  on  read- 
ing over  the  book,  libels  against  the  directors, 
and  the  several  officers  of  the  house ;  and  as 
the  court  of  enquiry  was  founded  upon  peti- 
IkxDS  presented  by  the  Erectors,  and  the  se- 


veral officers  of  the  house  complaining  that 
their  characters  were  uniustly  attacked,  I  did 
think,  when  we  had  the  honour  to  be  appoint- 
ed the  committee,  that  it  was  our  duty,  first 
to  go  and  examine  into  those  charges  relative 
to  the  officers  of  the  house ;  because,  in  re- 
spect to  the  directors,  Mr.  Baillie  protested 
against  the  committee,  and  I  thought  very 
properly,'  for  sitting  upon  charges  in  which 
they  themselves  were  concerned;  and  there- 
fore I  did  not  think  we  were  competent  to  go 
into  chaises  in  which  the  directors  were  con- 
cerned;   m  consequence  of  this,  before  we  - 
went  into  the  enqmry,  Mr.  Morgan,  the  coun- 
sel, called  upon  me,  to  know  \t\  had  any  ob- 
jection to  his  being  counsel  to  the  several 
parties  that  had  presented  petitions  to  the  Ad- 
miralty ;   I  told  him  I  had  not ;   and  I  told 
him  I  thought  the  plan  would  be,  for  us  to 
take  out  of  Mr.  Baillie's  book  all  the  charges ; 
what  I  call  the  libellous  charges  first,  against 
the  officers  of  the  house,  and  examine  into 
them  first,  and  desired  he  would  put  them 
down ;  he  did  accordingly  put  them  down  in 
a  book,  and  he  ^ve  me  a  copy ;  I  compared 
it  with  Mr.  Bailne's  book,  in  tne  best  manner 
I  could,  and  it  appeared  to  me,  that  the  several 
charges  that  related  to  those  parts  of  the  con- 
duct of  the  officers,  were  veiy  fairly  put  down ; 
and  when  we  met  Mr.  Baillie  the  first  time, 
I  told  him  the  mode  in  which  we  intended  to 
proceed ;  he  objected  in  general  to  the  mode, 
as  he  had  done  before.    He  objected,  that  we 
were  improper  people  to  enquire;  I  told  him, 
I  thought,  with  respect  to  the  several  officers, 
that  we  were  very  impartial,  and  competent 
to  enquire  into  it,  ana  that  was  the  mode  we 
determined  to  proceed  in ;  if  he  chose  it,  he 
might  produce  his  evidence ;  we  should  call 
upon  him  to  support  his  charges^  then  we 
should  calLup  the  other  persons,  to  shew  that 
the  charges  were  not  true ;  this  was  the  mode 
we  had  pointed  out. 

Were  not  the  persons  named  to  form  the 
committee  all  directors  ? — They  were"  all  di- 
rectors, because  there  was  something  that  ap- 
peared to  me  very  fur  in  the  proposal ;  and 
I  did  not  know  indeed  who  could  oe  the  per- 
sons to  be  named,  because  I  had  no  idea^  that 
the  general  court  of  commissioners,  consisting 
of  the  great  officers  of  state,  if  they  had  been 
proposed,  I  had  no  idea  they  would  attend 
to  this  enquiry ;  when  that  matter  was  pro- 
posed, I  was  at  the  Admiralty,  at  the  general 
court ;  the  first  lord  called  upon  Mr.  Baillie ; 
he  said,  Mr.  Baillie,  you  have  in  your  book 
said,  that  there  are  a  great  many  men  of  re- 
putation, wealth,  and  honour,  that  attend 
of\en  at  the  board  ;*  will  you  point  them  out, 
because  if  you  will,  I  shall-  move  this  court, 
that  they  be  the  persons  that  shall  make  this 
enquiry.    Mr.  Baillie  refused  to  do  that ;  then 

*  The  words  in  captain  Baillie**  book  are,  '*  Men 
of  worth  and  honor  do  aometimes  attend  the  board ;" 
bat  he' has  never  said  they  were  snflBcient  in  number 
to  constitute  a  oonrt    (Mg*  lScift« 


»9J 


18  GEORGE  IIL  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaUUe,         [90(T 


the  committiee  was  appcdnted,  leaving  out  all 
those  persons  against  whom  Mr.  Baulie  had 
made  the  particular  charges. 

Did  you  name  the  committee? — ^I  did  not. 

Who  then  did  ? — The  red  book*  was  called 
for  by  the  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty,  who 
read  the  names  of  the  directors,  and  sud  he 
was  of  opinion,  to  form  a  committee  out  of 
the  directors;  we  will  exclude  those  that  can- 
not attend,  and  those  that  are  particularly 
charged  in  Mr.  Baillie's  book;  and  as  the 
names  were  read,  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  being 
particularly  charged,  he  therefore  was  not 
one ;  then  severafadmirals  and  captains  that 
were  at  sea,  they  were  left  out ;  the  only  peo- 
ple that  could  be  aflerwards  found,  were  the 
seven  or  eight  that  were  left  for  the  en- 
quiry ;  if  there  were  none  others,  how  could 
capt.  Baillie  chuse  his  men  ?  Mr.  Fonnereau 
declined  afterwards,  he  said  his  health  would 
not  permit. 

Then  were  the  persons  that  formed  this 
committee  named  by  the  earl  of  Sandwich? — 
My  lord  Sandwich  said,  I  think,  my  opinion 
is,  the  book  should  be  called  for,  containing 
the  names  of  the  directors ;  and  those  that 
cannot  attend  should  be  left  out ;  and  those 
against  whom  there  are  particular  charges 
should  be  left  out ;  and  the  rest  should  be  me 
committee ;  and  the  general  court  agreed  to  it. 

Was  the  committee  so  pointed  out  by  the 
directions  of  lord  Sandwicn  ? — ^It  was  the  ge- 
neral court  did  it. 

Did  lord  Sandwich  point  out  to  the  general 
court  the  persons  to  be  of  that  committee  ?— * 
Yes,  I  think  he  did.  , 

Were  you  chairman  of  that  committee  ? — 
Yes,  I  was.  When  I  say  I  was  chairman,  I 
was  chairman  for  the  time  I  could  attend ;  I 
attended  from  the  18th  of  April  to  the  8th  of 
June ;  we  had  six  or  seven  meetings  in  that 
time ;  I  think  I  went  into  LancaSiire ;  the 
committee  met  afterwards,  and  then  appoint^ 
another  chairman. 

For  how  many  days  were  you  chairman?— 
I  believe  six  or  seven  times ;  but  the  report 
will  shew  it ;  because  it  is  Uiere  particularly 
marked. 

Whom  did  you  look  upon,  in  that  enquiry, 
to  be  the  plaintiff,  and  wno  the  defendant? — I 
don't  know  whetner  I  can  answer  that  ques- 
tion, not  being  a  Judge  of  law ;  but  it  was  an 
enj^uiry,  I  conceive.  I  will  shew  your  lord- 
siiips  the  mode  we  endeavoured  to  go  on 
with ;  it  was  this ;  these  charges  being  so  set 
down,  we  took  Mr.  Baillie's  book,  and  we 
read  a  charge;  the  first  charge,  for  instance, 
against  the  surveyor  was,  f  "  Uiat  he  had  built 

*  Court  Register. 

t The  words  of  oapL  Bftillie's  book  are,  "Hie 
arehiteet  of  tJie  new  infirmery,  who,  instead  of  eon- 
•tamcting  it  as  originally  intended,  principally  for 
tJie  sick  aad  helpless  pensioners,  bnill  it  rather  as  a 
palaoe  for  olBcers  than  an  infirmary  for  siok ;  the  aa- 
tnial  ooBseqnenoe  of  which  is,  that  there  is  not  room 
raHcient  for  the  belplesi  men.'    Orig,  Edit^ 


an  infirmary  as  a  palace  for  officers;"  wo 
called  upon  Mr.  Baillie  to  prove  this  charge^ 
and  then  called  upon  the  surveyor  to  give  an 
answer  to  the  charge;  that  is  the  way  we 
proceeded ;  I  did  not  know  that  there  was  a 
plaintiff  or  defendant  in  the  case ;  the  com- 
mittee were  summoned  to  enquire  into  the 
charges  contained  in  Mr.  BaiUie's  book;  tl|e 
officers,  bavins  oresented  the  petition,  may 
be  properly  callea  the  complainants,  and  Mr. 
Baulie  the  defendant ;  we  called  upon  Mr. 
Baillie  to  give  proof  in  his  book  of  that  fact  * 
and  then  upon  t;he  others ;  to  shew  whether 
they  were  ^Ity  of  it  or  not ',  that  was  the 
mode  in  which  we  proceeded. 

I  think  you  say  they  called  upon  captain 
Baillie  to  prove  his  book ;  in  that  respect,  he 
was  the  complainant :  at  another  time,  vou 
say  they  called  upon  the  gentlemen  who  had 
complained,  as  complainants? — ^We  read  a 
charge  in  the  book,  and  having  read  that 
charge,  we  called  upon  Mr.  Baillie  to  ^ve  his 
proof  of  that  chai^  which  Mr.  Baillie,  in 
some  cases,  did ;  in  some  cases  he  did  not ; 
then  we  called  upon  the  person  charged,  to 
shew  that  it  was  not  true ;  and  when  we  had 
done  that,  and  had  examined  through  the 
whole  of  the  charges  against  this  man,  then 
we  desired  the  court  to  retire,  and  the  com- 
mittee, among  themselves,  while  it  was  fresh 
in  their  memory,  came  to  a  resolution,  whe^ 
ther  they  thought  the  charges  well  founded 
or  not. 

Was  any  counsel  permitted  to  attend? — 
Mr.  Morgan  attendee ;  Mr.  Baillie  first  ob- 
jected violently  against  counsel ;  I  told  him 
that  the  gentlemen  charsed  thought  it  right 
to  have  counsel,  and  that  He  might  nave  coun^ 
sel  if  he  pleased ;  I  think  his  answer  was,  he 
could  not  afford  to  pay  for  it ;  but  he  des^r^ 
he  might  have  a  firiend ;  we  said  he  might ; 
he  did  produce  a  gentleman,  a  Mr.  Cowley,  I 
thought  a  moderate,  sensible  man ;  I  thought 
him,  then,  a  gentleman  of  the  law,  by  his  abi- 
lity in  the  business ;  but  since  understand  he 
was  not. 

Then  Mr.  Cowley  was  permitted  to  assist 
Mr.  Baillie,  in  the  same  manner  as  Mr.  Mor- 
gan assisted  the  others  ? — Yes. 

Were  any  motions  made  by  Mr.  Cowley,  in 
consequence  of  his  being  looked  upon  as 
counsel,  and  as  a  friend  for  capt.  Baillie  ?  Did 
he  make  any  motions  to  ask  any  questions  ? 
—Several  times;  I  wish  he  had  asked  more  ; 
for  -  Mr.  Baillie  was  very  troublesome  in  the 
committee,  and,  at  some  times,  behaved  so 
rude,  I  thought  the  committee-  would  not  go 
on :  I  appealed  to  Mr.  Cowlev  as  a  moderate 
man,  and  said,  you  are  brought  here  to  assist 
Mr.  Bullie ;  I  wish  he  would  let  yon  go  on  ; 
you  understand  the  matter ;  we  slyall  go  on 
with  greater  ease ;  but  Mr.  Baillie  woum  not 
permit  that;  he  took  upon  himself  to  exsi- 
mine  the  witnesses ;  and  would  not  let  Mr. 
Cowley  go  on. 

Whether  Mr.  Morgan  did  not  arrange  the 
manner  in  which  captain  BaiUie^s  com^aini* 


501]  mpeding  the  Royd  HoipHal  at  Greemonch.         A.  D.  177S. 


[308. 


were  to  be  examined? — ^Yes;  but  it  was  aft 
my  request. 

Bid  not  Mr.  Baillie  object  to  Mr.  Morgan's 
arrangement? — Yes;  and  said,  I  think,  that 
we  ought  to  go  on  with  the  enquiry,  beginning 
bis  book,  and  reading  it  through ;  I  think  I 
told  him,  but  I  cannot  be  answerable  for 
efery  word  so  long  ago,  I  told  him,  Mr.  Bail- 
lie,  you  have,  by  a  letter  you  have  presented 
to  the  court,  (for  he  had  presented  a  letter,  in 
which  he  objected  to  the  committee  as  an  il- 
le^  tiibunal) ;  when  Mr.  Baillie  wished  us 
to  go  on,  I  said,  we  the  committee  cannot 
proceed  in  that  manner ;  we  will  go  on  in 
what  way  we  think  the  right  way  ofproceed- 
ing ;  we  cannot  go  on  in  your  way ;  because 
if  we  do,  there  are  charges  must  OHne  against 
the  directors ;  you  object  to  our  sittine  where 
there  are  cfaarges  against  ourselves,  therefore 
we  cannot  go  on  in  the  way  you  prescribe ; 
we  have  thought  this  the  best  mode;  and  we 
think  right  to  go  on  in  our  own  mode ;  we 
will  not  agree  to  it. 

I  understand  Mr.  Cowley  was  looked  upon 
as  counsel  for  Mr.  Baillie? — ^They  both,  I 
think,  said  he  was  not  a  counsel,  but  a  friend. 

But  in  the  same  situation  to  Mr.  Baillie,  as 
llr.  Morgan  to  the  others  ? — ^Yes. 

Do  you  remember  Mr.  Cowley's  asking  Mr. 
Adam,  the  architect,  whether  all  the  itera- 
tions appeared  to  be  necessaiy  repairs  ?— I 
don't  remember  that ;  I  remember  Mr.  Adam's 
attending. 

And  recollect  his  giving  his  general  appro- 
bation?— ^I  do;  but  Duit  is  all  stated  in  the 
report. 

The  report  is  stated  in  a  different  manner 
from  what  I  wish  to  examine  you  to.-^!  don't 
recollect,  particularly,  what  passed,  relative  to 
BIr.  Adam;  I  remember  his  being  there.  - 

I  will  put  a  question  may  bring  it  to  your 
recollection ;  do  you  remember  that  Mr.  Cow- 
ley was,  at  any  time,  ordered  out  of  the  room  ? 
' — I  don't  remember  that,  indeed. 

That  he  should  withdraw  ? — ^I  don't  recol- 
lect that ;  and  rather  think  that  did  not  hap- 
pen, becmjse  there  was  a  committee  appoint- 
ed, I  remember,  to  eo  and  view  some  apart- 
ments, and  Mr.  Cowley  attended  Mr.  Baillie  : 
I  don't  recollect  his  being  order^  to  with- 
draw. 

Did  captain  Baillie  introduce  a  short-hand 
writer  to  take  minutes  of  the  proceedings? — 
Yes,  he  did. 

Was  not  that  writer  ordered  to  withdraw  ? — 
Yes,  he  was ;  I  would  not  permit  a  short- 
hand writer;  at  least  the  committee  would 
not ;  I  gave  mv  opinion ;  I  did  not  tiiink  pro- 
per to  have  a  shortrhand  writer. 

What  was  the  reason  you  objected  to  him  ? 
—I  thought  it  improper ;  I  did  not  think  it 
proper  to  have  a  shortrbaed  writer  to  publish, 
peinaps  in  the  newspapers,  very  unfairly, 
every  thing  that  passea ;  in  the  m^t  place,  I 
4id  not  know  the  ^entiemao ;  I  did  not  know 
whether  he.  would  take  the  minutes  down 
fiuriyornot;  ap^  as  there  was  a  clerk  tg  take 


the  minutes  down,  I  did  not  think  it  right  to 
have  a  short-hand  writer. 

Who  was  that  clerk  that  did  take  the  mi- 
nutes down? — Mr.  Ibbetson,  the  secretary's 
clerk ;  he  attends  at  the  board  of  directors ; 
he  is  the  under  secretary. 

Was  not  Mr.  Ibbetson  concerned  in  the 
charges? — Certainly. 

I  Uiink  you  saia  it  was  his  clerk  that  took 
minutes  ? — ^Yes. 

You  said  you  did  not  think  it  proper  to  allow 
the  short-luind  writer  to  take  notes;  dont 
you  recollect  Mr.  Everest  took  notes  ? — Mr.- 
Everest  and  Mr.  Ibbetson  both  were  at  the 
table ;  likely  tiiey  did  take  notes. 

Will  you  explain  why  you  permitted  per^ 
sons  concerned  on  one  side  to  take  notes,  and 
not  permit  Mr.  Baillie  to  take  notes  on  the 
other  ? — Mr.  Cowley  was  permitted  and  did 
take  notes ;  I  understood  one  person  was  suf- 
ficient to  take  notes. 

There  were  two  persons  did  take  notes  on 
one  side  ? — ^They  were  writing  at  the  desk ; 
but  I  don't  know  what  use  they  made  of  their 
notes;  I  have  never  seen  them. 

Why  did  you  refiise  Mr.  Baillie  to  have  a 
person  to  take  notes  for  him,  and  permit  two 
on  the  oUier  side  to  take  notes? — I  saw  Mr. 
Cowley  take  notes  for  Mr.  Baillie;  I  thought 
one  person  sufficient  to  take  notes;  I  permit- 
ted the  gentlemen  belonging  to  the  Hospital, 
Mr.  Ibbetson,  and  Mr.  Everest,  the  solicitor ; 
and  they  had  been  used  to  be  in  the  room 
when  I  attended  the  directors ;  therefore  I 
did  not  choose  to  turn  them  out :  I  did  not 
order  them  to  stay. 

I  beg  you  will  mention  whether  the  com- 
mittee examined  into  the  infirmai^  of  the 
Hospital  ?— They  did  not ;  and  I  will  tell  the 
House  why  they  did  not;  Mr.  Baillie  would 
fain  hkve  had  that  matter  enquired  into,  and 
come  in  as  a  charge  against  the  surveyor,  for 
building  the  infimiary  improperly ;  the  first 
thing  we  enquired  into  was,  to  know  by  what 
authority  the  surveyor  built  it;  we  found  that 
he  had  built  it  by  a  plan  approved  of  by  t^e 
directors,  and  recommendea  to  the  general 
court,  and  ordered  by  the  general  court  to 
build  it  according  to  that  plan,  in  a  masterly 
manner ;  therefore  I  told  Mr.  Baillie  if  there 
was  any  fault  in  the  infirmary  itself,  it  was  a 
fault  in  the  directors,  and  not  in  the  builder ; 
and  that  he  had  saia  that  it  was  improper  for 
us  to  enauire  into  charees  against  tne  di- 
rectors; therefore  I  would  not  permit  it  to  be 
visited. 

Was  Mr.  Mylne  examined  relative  to  the 
state  of  the  infirmary? — ^Yes,  he  was,  but 
a^inst  my  inclination ;  for  I  would  not  per* 
mit  his  bemg  examined ;  the  committee  were 
for  it,  but  I  was  against  it ;  for  I  thought  it  to 
no  purpose  to  enquire  into  the  state  of  tiie  in« 
firmary;  if  any  thing  was  wrong,  it  was  a 
charge  against  the  directors,  and  not  against 
him. 

The  committee,  then,  did  enquire  intoH^ 
•«^^bey  examined  Mr.  Mylne. 


L 


3051 


18  G£ORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  Baillie,  [304 


But  did  thby  go  to  examine,  themselves, 
the  state  of  the  infirmary? — ^They  did  not. 

How  far  was  .the  infirmary  from  the  place 
where  they  were  sitting? — ^Two  hundred 
yards,  perhaps. 

Did  captain  Baiilie  desire  that  they  would  ? 
— ^He  frequently  desired  it. 

Was  not  Mr.  Mylne,  as  he  was  examined, 
one  of  thQ.  persons  that  had  complained 
against  captain  Baiilie  ? — Yes,  he  was. 

Could  Mr.  Cust  think  him  an  impartial  evi- 
dence?— ^No;  I  said  I  was  against  it;  the 
committee  ordered  it ;  hut  certainly  he  was  a 
person  having  charges  against  him ;  therefore, 
with  respect  to  myself,  I  did  not  think  him  a 
proper  evidence. 

'nien,  in  that  respect,  your  opinion  is,  the 
committee  did  not  do  right? — I  did  not  think 
it  relative  to  the  point  the  committee  were  to 
enquire  into ;  and  therefore  I  did  not  think  it 
rinit  to  enquire  at  all  into  it. 

is  thefe  a  report  in  the  committee  that  cap- 
tain Baillie's  charee  relative  to  the  infirmary 
is  not  well  found^? — Yes,  there  is  such  a  re- 
port ;  and  the  report  is  against  the  surveyor, 
that  it  is  not  well  foundecJ^as  far  as  relates  to 
him. 

And  that  without  eoing  to  examine  the 
place  upon  the  spot  ? — -Yes. 

And  taking  the  examination  only  of  the 
person  himself  concerned?  —  The  charge 
against  the  surveyor  was.  that  he  had  built  it 
lumself,  as  if  he  alone  haa  undertaken  to  build 
h ;  when  it  came  to  be  enquired  into,  the  plan 
vi^as  ordered  by  the  general  court ;  therefore 
we  thought  it  no  charge  aeainst  the  surveyor. 

Had  not  the  committee  tne  plans  of  the  in- 
firmary before  them  ? — No,  I  think,  not  Uie 
iofirmary  ;  we  had  the  plans  of  the  Hospital 
'before  us ;  and  I  am  prettv  sure  wc  never  had 
the  plan  of  the  infirmary  Defore  us ';  because, 
findmg  it  was  ordered  by  the  general  court, 
upon  a  plan,  we  were  of  opinion,  that  the  sur- 
veyor was  not  answerable,  if  the  plan  was  a 
wrong  one,  if  he  had  built  it  acconling  to  the 
plan. 

But  was  not  that  plan  before  the  court  ? — ^I 
don't  recollect  whether  it  was  or  not. 

It  is  [qu.  not]  a  great  distance  of  tim&;  be 
so  ffood  as  to  recollect — I  cannot  be  sure ;  I 
rather  think  it  was  not;  I  am  not  sure,  whe- 
ther there  was  not  something  pointed  out  as  if 
the  works  were  different  from  the  plan ;  I 
think  I  remember  something  of  that ;  but  it  is 
at  such  a  distance  of  time  I  don't  now  remem- 
ber it. 

That  the  works  were  different  from  the 
plan?»Some  of  the  apartments  different  from 
the  plan ;  it  is  a  lone  while  ago  since  this  in- 
firmary has  been  buUt;  it  has  been  built  ten 
Years ;  there  being  no  complaint  before  of  its 
being  bad,  and  one  of  the  things  made  us  not 
examine  so  much,  b  this,  there  are  articles  of 
instruction ;  the  lieutenant-governor,  when  he 
sees  any  thing  wrong,  is  to  call  a  council  to 
make  his  complaint;  and'  it  is  to  eo  to  the 
proper  place  to  be  remedied ;  *  I  b^eve  the 

t 


Admiralty ;  -  this  infirmary  having  been  built 
ten  years  ago,  and  it  appearing  to  us  that  it 
was  built  by  order  of  the  plan,  from  the  Hos- 
pital, we  thought  we  were  not  to  enquire  into 
it. 

But  there  was  some  complaint,  ^'ou  say, 
that  the  building  was  somewnat  different? — 
Yes. 

How  were  the  committee  to  know  that^ 
without  going  upon  the  spot  to  verify  it  ? — I 
think  I  remember  somethmg  of  a  plan  being 
laid  before  us,  because  the  objection  being 
made,  that  there  was  something  nuide*  that 
was  not  according  to  the  plan,  therefore,  I 
thought  if  we  saw  the  plan  it  would  be  the 
same  as  goine  to  the  place. 

Don't  you  know  there  are  large  places  al- 
lowed for  the  officers  of  the  infirmary  that  do 
not  appear  in  the  plans  ? — ^No,  I  don%  I  did 
not  particularly  enquire  into  that. 

When  you  exammed  into  it.  who  were  the 
persons  that  Mr.  Morgan  called  to  disprove 
the  parts  in  captain  Baillie's  book?  Were 
they  the  persons  concerned  in  it? — ^Yes,  I  be- 
lieve they  were  in  general ;  unless  your  lord- 
ship will  state  any  thine  particular,  I  cannot 
tell ;  in  a  general  way  they  were  csdled  upon. 

I  don't  mean  merely  to  deny  the  fact,  but 
were  not  they  called  upon  to  give  evidence  in 
the  case? — They  were  called  upon  to  know, 
whether  the  facts  were  true,  and  then  brought 
evidence  to  support  their  assertion. 

Was  not  their  own  evidence  taken  down  in 
the  minutes? — ^Yes;  I  am  rather  apt  to 
think,  that  what  they  said  was  taken  down  in 
the  minutes. 

Was  captain  Baiilie  heard  as  an  evidence  in 
his  own  cause?— I  forget;  he  was  called 
upon  to  prove  the  charges,  but  I  fancy  he  was 
to  produce  evidence  to  prove  them,  but  Mr. 
Baillie's  conduct  upon  many  occasions  was  so 
very  irregular,  I  will  give  you  one  instance ;  1 
remember  there  was  a  charge  against  the  rev, 
Mr.  Cooke,  that  he  had  bought  his  place,  I 
think  under  the  sanction  of  the  first  lord  of 
the  Admiralty ;  we  thou^t  this  a  veiy  heavy 
cham ;  we  cadled  upon  Mr.  Baiilie  to  prove 
it.  Mr.  Baiilie,  in  a  rude  manner,  said^  yoa 
are  an  illegal  tribunal,  I  will  have  nothms  to 
say  to  you ;  I  will  give  just  what  proofs  I 
please,  and  vnll  examine  into  it  in  another 
place ;  I  will  give  you  no  proof  of  it  here; 
then  we  set  it  down  as  not  proved ;  and  he 
often  refiised  to  give  proofs,  but  wanted  to  go 
into  the  abuses  of  the  Hospital,  and  not  to 
enquire  into  the  several  charges  contained  in 
his  book  against  the  several  officers,  as  far  as 
they  related  to  the  officers ;  we  went  into  the 
abuses :  there  were  a  great  number  of  abuses 
entered  into ;  under  the  head  of  Mr.  Godby, 
all  the  abuses  were  examined  into;  where 
the  directors  were  concerned,  there  we  tokl 
him  we  were  not  proper  persons  to  examine 
into  it. 

I  understand  Mr.  Baiilie  was  not  admitted 
an  evidence  in  his  own  cause? — ^I  think  aot^ 
we  heard  what  he  had  lo  say^  but  whether  il 


905]         reipecHng  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Greenwich.         A*  D.  1778. 


[305 


ms  put  down  in  his  evidence  or  no,  I  cannot 
ay. 

Bui  on  the  other  side,  tlie  other  gentle- 
men's evidence  was  taken  in  their  own  cause  ? 
—I  will  not  say  always,  it  was  sometimes 
taken,  I  think. 

Do  you  recollect  that  captain  Baillie  de- 
sired some  letters  complaining  of  the  state  of 
the  Infinnaiy  might  be  read,  and  Mr.  Morgan 
c^JMted  to  ity  sayine,  he  would  not  suffer  nis 
dientstoproduce  evidence  against  themselves? 
—It  is  very  likely  it  might  he  so,  I  don't  re- 
Qollect  it  particularly ;  Iremember  something 
4>f  an  objection  made  by  Mr.  Mor^n,  of  his 
dients  not  producing  evidence  against  them- 
•fielves,  but  I  am  not  sure  whether  it  was  there 
wnot. 

Do  you  recollect  whether  those  were  letters 
addressed  to  the  directors,  by  the  physician 
and  surgeon,  and  referred  to  Mr.  Mylne  for 
his  opimon  ? — ^I  don't  recollect  that. 

Do  not  you  recollect  any  letters  addressed 
to  the  directors,  by  the  physician  and  sur- 
geon?— ^No;  I  don't  recollect  it;  I  don*t  say 
It  was  not ;  it  is  likely  there  might  be,  but  I 
don't  recollect  it. 

Did  not  the  committee  refuse  to  hear  the 
evidence  of  pensioners  upon  a  great  many 
points,  when  produced  by  Mr.  Baillie? — ^Yes; 
and  I  believe  I  was  the  person  that  objected 
to  it ;  the  pensioners  were  exanuned  upon  two 
or  three  occasions ;  I  think  there  were  four, 
five  or  six  of  them,  as  well  pensioners  as 
nurses,  upon  some  occasion,  and  the  account 
they  gave,  was  so  very  contradictory,  and 
there  appeared  so  much  ill  nature  on  both 
sides,  so  much  party  prejudice  in  the  Hospital^ 
that  I  myself  was  ot  opinion,  they  were  not 
proper  to  be  called  upon  anv  more',  and  I  did 
object,  I  think,  to  some  of  them ;  and  I  be- 
lieve some  of  the  committee  were  of  a  dif- 
frrent  opinion ;  they  thought  they  ought  to 
be  called. 

You  were  of  opinion  then,  that  the  pen- 
loners  were  not  the  proper  persons  to  give 
evidence  of  grievances  ? — I  do  not  know  wnat 
it  was  for,  but  if  it  had  been  to  grievances,  I 
think  I  should  have  thought  them  proper  per- 
sons to  be  examined  to  that;  but  as  I  said  be^ 
fi>re,  their  accounts  were  so  contradictory,  I 
thought  it  to  no  purpose  to  call  upon  them ; 
if  your  lordship  will  tell  me  any  particular  fact 
to  which  they  were  to  be  called,  I  may  recol- 
lect it. 

Don't  you  recollect,  that  the  evidence  of  the 
men,  complaining  of  a  great  nuisance  of  a 
drain  runmng  throush  their  wards,  were  re- 
vised to  be  heard K— I  believe  they  were; 
this  ward  is  in*  Mr.  Ibbetson's  apartment ;  if  I 
lemember  right,  it  appeared  to  us,  thai  this 
apartment  was  ordered  by  the  directors  and 
the  general  court  of  commissioners,  and  there- 
fore it  was  a  charge,  if  any,  against  the  direc- 
tors, which  Mr.  Baillie  had  protested  we  could 
not  go  into ;  besides  that,  I  think  that  captain 
Allwright,  if  I  remember  right,  was  one  of 
the  evidences  thit  was  produced,  either  upon 

VOL,  XXIi 


that  or  some  other  occasions,  and  it  appeared, 
that  this  drain,  whatever  it  was,  was  a  thing 
that  had  lasted  ten  years ;  I  asked  him,  whe« 
ther  by  the  fourth  article  of  his  instructions, 
if  he  met  with  any  nuisance,  he  was  not  to 
complain  of  it  to  the  council,  he  said  yes  ;-^ 
whv  then  have  you  complained  of  it  ?  no,  he 
had  not;  why  then,  how  can  you  come  to 
complain  to  us,  of  a  thing  that  happened  ten 
years  before,  whereas,  if  you  had  laia  it  before 
the  coimcil,  it  might  have  been  remedied,  and 
by  your  instructions  you  ought  to  have  done 
it 

Mv  question  is,  Were  the  pensioners  re- 
fused to  be  called  in  upon  that  occasion  ? — I 
think  it  likely  they  were,  for  the  reason,  be- 
cause the  directors  were  concerned,  we  did 
not  enquire  where  they  were  concerned,  not 
tliinkin^  ourselves  competent. 

Did  It  not  appear  to  the  committee,  that 
one  of  the  witnesses  was  punished,  for  the 
trifling  offence  of  not  taking  off  his  hat  to  Mr. 
Cooke,  the  chaplain  ? — ^No,  I  don't  recollect 
that. 

One  Goiich,  a  pensioner  ? — I  don't  recollect 
that,  indeed;  I  don't  remeihber  at  all  that  it- 
came  before  me. 

Don't  you  recollect  having  said  any  thing; 
upon  that  subject  yourself  in  the  committee? 
— I  don't  recollect  it,  indeed. 

Don't  you  recollect  having  said  that  it  had 
a  very  disagreeable  appearance  to  be  done  at 
so  particular  a  time,  and  that  you  were  sonj 
it  had  happened  ? — ^No,  I  don't ;  it  is  possible 
I  might  say  so,  but  I  don't  remember  it :  I 
remember  there  was  some  complaint  of  Mr. 
Baillie's,  that  the  evidence  was  brow-beat; 
perhaps  it  was  upon  this  occasion  that  this 
man  was  punished,  and  it  was  said  that  he 
was  punished  for  some  other  offence :  and  I 
remember,  at  Mr.  Baillie's  request,  several 
people  were  called  in,  several  of  the  officers, 
and  told,  that  if  there  was  any  brow-beating 
of  the  evidence,  or  threatening,  or  menacing, 
that  the  committee  would  take  particular 
notice  of  it;  for  we  desired  all  the  evidence 
might  be  firee  and  fur ;  I  remember  that  was 
done  at  Mr.  Baillie's  own  request;  I  think  I 
might  take  notice  of  it,  but  will  not  pretend 
to  say. 

Do  you  recollect  a  proposal  of  calling  in 
twenty  of  the  men  then  on  guard,  as  a  fair 
and  expeditious  mode  of  ascertaining  whether 
the  complaints  stated  really  existed? — ^Against 
which  of  the  officers  was  the  complaint  made  ; 
because,  if  it  was  against  the  airectors,  we 
thought  it  wiong  to  enquire.  I  told  Mr.  Bail- 
lie,  don't  interrupt  us  in  our  mode  of  proceed- 
ing, and  when  the  committee  has  done  with 
that  mode  of  proceeding,  if  there  are  anv 
grievances  that  still  remam,  I,  for  one,  think 
they  ou^ht  to  be  redressed ;  and  I  shall,  if  I  sit 
till  Chnstmas,  I  shall  certainly  give  my  vote 
for  the  committee  sitting  to  repress  all  the 
grievances,  but  don't  interrupt  us  now  in  our 
mode  of  proceeding ;  it  is  likely  that  might 
be  one  ot  those  things  timt  I  thought  it  better 
X 


307] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaiUie,  [908 


to  postpone  till  we  had  gone  through  our 
mode  of  proceeding;  I  cannot  pretend  to 
say. 

If  I  understand  you  right,  you  said  you 
thought  all  these  complaints  were  to  he  exa^ 
mined  into,  though  the  committee  should  be 
obliged  to  sit  till  Christmas  ? — ^Not  his  com- 
plaints; I  did  not  think  the  committee  could 
examine  into  his  complaints ;  but  I  thought 
all  the  grievances  then  snbsistine  ought  to  be 
examined  into  and  redressed,  ^eth^  made 
\)y  lif  r.  BailHe,  or  any  body  else ;  and  I  would 
mve  sat  till  Christmas  for  redressing  them, 
if  the  committee  had  thought  prop^  so 
to  do. 

Do  you  not  recollect  a  proposal  to  take 
twenty  men  that  happened  that  day  to  be 
upon  gusuxl,  as  a  ^ur  and  expeditious  mode  of 
ascertaining  whether  the  complaints  stated 
really  existed  ? — I  think  it  is  very  likely  to  be 
so ;  and  if  I  objected;^  it  was  to  the  time ;  that 
this  was  an  improper  time,  and  interrupted 
our  proceedings. 

I  am  not  a^ing  as  to  the  time,  but  whether 
such  a  proposal  was  made? — I  think  I  re- 
member something  of  it. 

Was  it  not  pretty  strongly  uiged  by  Mr. 
BaiUie  ? — I  dare  say,  if  it  was  made,  it  was 
strongly  urged  by  Mr.  Bailiie;  I  have  no 
doubt  of  it. 

Did  vou  object  to  it? — ^Veiy  likely;  I  ob- 
jected ror  one :  I  remember  some  proposal  was 
made ;  sir  William  James  thougnt  we  ought 
to  enquire  into  it  then,  and  was  of  opinion  we 
should  take  six,  eight,  or  ten  pensioners  that 
were  passing  by  to  exaimne  into  it;  that  was 
his  o[>inion ;  and  if  I' differed,  it  was  as  to  the 
propriety  of  the  time. 

You  thought  it  ought  to  have  been  done  ? 
-—If  it  was  an  abuse. 

Whether  it  was  an  abuse  or  not,  would  turn 
out  upon  the  examination? — ^I  thought  en- 
quiry mto  all  abuses  were  to  be  made. 

And  the  proposal  that  was  made  by  some 
gentleman,  and  strongly  urged  by  captain 
Saillie,  that  the  twenty  men  u^n  guard  should 
be  taken  and  examined  as  mdinerent  men, 
and  that  you  objected  to  that  proposal  only  as 
to  time  ? — >I  cannot  say  that,  unless  I  knew 
when  it  was ;  what  day,  I  cannot  take  upon 
me  to  say  at  this  (^stance  of  time :  I  remem- 
ber some  proposal  made  by  Mr.  Biullie  to  exa- 
mine men,  and  my  objecting  to  it,  and  sir 
William  James  differing  in  opmion  with  me. 

Was  that  ever  done  ? — ^No,  never  was. 

Was  there  any  enouiry  into  the  state  of  the 
linen  ?-^Ycs ;  I  thint  a  very  full  enquiry  into 
the  state  of  the  linen,  and  we  sat  upon  it,  I 
think,  two  or  three  days. 

What  was  the  result  of  that  enquiry  ?  Was 
it  tliat  the  enlarge  was  made  out? — May  I 
refer  to  the  report?  I  cannot  take  upon  me  to 
say  what  the  result  of  it  was ;  it  is  stated  in 
the  report. 

Did  it  not  appear  to  the  committee  that  a 
great  number  of  shirts  and  sheets  then  in 
wev  were  sboitof  tlie  standard  allowed  by  the 


establbhment;  and  that  the  whole  deficiency 
amounted  to  a  great  quantity  of  linen? — I  be- 
lieve it  did  not  appear  that  there  was  any  de- 
ficiency, because  1  understand,  fi^m  the  mode 
of  doing  it,  every  shirt  oiay  not  be  o#  the 
same  size ;  but  there  was  no  loss  to  the  Hos* 
pital  by  it;  there  were  a  great  many  of  them 
appeared  to  be  very  old  linen ;  and  it  did  not 
appear  to  me,  that  this  linen  might  not  be 
cut  since  taken  off  the  beds.  Mr.  Bailhe  pro- 
duced it  all  himself;  they  were  not  taken  off 
by  order  of  the  committee. 

Were  there  any  men  taken  promisbuouslj 
to  examine  it  ?-7-A  great  many  were  examined 
of  the  new  linen,  and  all  appeared  of  the  pro- 
per sizes ;  this  was  a  basket  of  old  linen . 

Would  it  not  have  been  a  fair  method.  t9 
have  taken  the  first  20  men  upon  euara  t« 
examine  into  this  ?<— I  cannot  pretend  to  say, 
whether  the  30  men  upon  guard  were  to  that 

rint;  I  beg  leave  to  refer  to  the  report,  fox- 
cannot  pretend  to  carry  all  that  in  my 
head :  I  know  the  linen  was  enquired  into 
very  fully. 

Did  it  appear  tliat  the  steward  was  altowed- 
to  cut  the  Imen  of  the  pensioners  shorter  or 
less  than  the  standard  allowed?— I  beg  to 
refer  to  the  report. 

I  believe  the  report  states  shortly,  that  the 
charge  was  groundless.  But  I  ask,  did  it  not 
appear  that  the  steward  had  cut  the  linen 
shorter  than  the  standard  allowed? — I  bc^ 
that  the  report  may  be  referred  to;  your 
lordships  have  it  upon  the  table. 

Did  It  not  appear  to  the  committee,  that 
there  was  no  standard  adhered  to  in  making 
up  the  linen  ? — ^Your  lordship  has  the  report 
upon  the  table ;  I  could  soon  turn  to  it,  if  I 
had  the  report ;  because  I  cannot  recollect  it. 
[The  report  shewn  to  Mr.  Cust.] 

Did  It  appear  that  there  had  been  any 
standard,  by  which  the  shirts  and  linen  had 
been  measured,  previous  to  the  enquiry? — 
That  I  don't  recollect;  I  know  there  is  a 
standard  in  the  books. 

I  do  not  doubt  that,  tha{  it  is  in  the  books ; 
but  was  that  standard  ever  adhered  to  ?— That 
I  will  not  pretend  to  say. 

Did  it  not  appear,  that- the  standard  was  not 
adhered  to? — ^I  should  think  it  did,  in  some 
instances;  because  their  shirts  were  under 
the  standard  certainly. 

Why,  in  the  report,  could  the  committee 
say  that  that  part  of  captain  Baillie's  assertion, 
that  the  standard  was  not  adhered  to,  was 
fttl?e  ? — It  is  unfairly  stated ;  the  report  says, 
unrkirly  stated  by  captain  Bailiie ;  and  then 
they  say,  it  appeal^  that  the  linen  cloth  is  cut 
up  by  the  civ?l  officers'  clerks'  wives;  that 
seemed  to  be  the  charge ;  that,  we  said,  was 
not  true ;  because  we  htated  mat  there  is  a 
standard. 

Whether  there  was  any  enmiiry  made  into 
the  state  of  the  shoes  ? — I  think  there  was ;  I 
will  look.  (Refers  to  the  report.)  Here  is 
another  thing  that  is  stated  in  the  report 
'<  If,  however|8iiy  complaints  had  been  ooade 


309}        rmfecHfig  the  Roj/a  Hospbat  at  GrientiM.        A.  D.  177B4 


[310 


lo  capteia  Bailiie^  of  the  sbprtnees  of  the 
ihirts  aad  sheets^  of  bad  washug,  &c.  it  does 
Bot  appear  that  he  has  taken  the  proper  no- 
lice  of  them,  by  laying  them  befose  the  coun- 
cil, agreeable  lo  the  17  th  article  of  the  printed 
orders,  for  the  regulating  and  better  governing 
of  the  pemiooerSy  &c.  Which  it  was  his  ia- 
di^nsible  duty  to  have  done.'' 

I  want  to  see  if  aay  thing  is  said  about  the 
shoes? — I  am  sure  the  shoes  were  examined 
intOy  but  i  don't  see  any  thine  in  the  report 
lelalive  to  it ;  I  don^t  see  any  thing  in  it  rela^ 
Ihre  to  shoes;  I  know  we  examined  into  the 
shoes,  and  examined  relative  tp  the  nurses' 
clothes,  and  found  they  were  not  so  good  as 
they  ueed  to  be. 

is  there  any  report  made  about  these 
clothes? — I  don't  find  it  in  the  report;  I 
kaow  we  examined  into  the  shoes ;  and  some 
that  were  produced  were  found  to  be  very 
bad. 

Does  that  appear  to  you  to  be  an  impaitial 
leport,  that  does  not  take  notice  of  several 
nouDds  of  complaint  that  were  proved? — I 
don*t  know  how  that  is ;  I  know  we  examin- 
ed into  the  shoes. 

Does  that  appear  then  to  be  an  implrtial 
report  ? — I  see  that  shoes  and  women*s  clothes 
are  omitted. 

That  report  then,  as  far  as  that  goes,  is  defec- 
tive and  oartial  ? — It  is  defective,  as  far  as  it 
spes,  witn  regard  to  them ;  they  ought  to  have 
Men  put  in. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  into  the  state  of  the 
brewhouse  ? — Yes ;  I  think  there  were  enqui- 
ries made ;  but  it  appeared  they  were  griev- 
ances that  had  been  remedr^,  ^d  no  com- 
plaints made  afterwards ;  I  tiiink  I  remembo* 
It;  I  don't  know  where  to  look  for  it  in  the 
report,  or  else,  i  dare  say,  it  would  be  found 
lobe  there. 

Was  there  any  enquirymade  into  the  abuses 
of  the  charity  stock,  as  charged  in  the  printed 
Case  ? — I  am  not  sure  wheUier  it  was  in  my 
time  made,  or  no ;  I  think  not  while  I  sat. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  into  the  danger  of 
fire,  from  the  tailors'  shop?— No;  there  was 
Botimig  said  about  the  dajoger  of  fire. 

It  is  in  the  printed  Case.—I  am  sure  it  was 
not  enquired  into,  while  I  was  there. 

You,  I  think,  attended  six  meetings  ? — ^Yes ; 
I  did. 

And  the  seventh  you  did  not  ? — ^The  seventh 
I  did  not. 

In  the  course  of  these  meetings  you  stud, 
that  the  committee  roieht  sit  till  Christmas ; 
that  you  thoueht  it  ou^t  to  do  so,  to  enquire 
into  abuses  that  were  then  existing  ?— Yes, 
that  were  then  existing ;  if  Mr.  BaiUie  had 
any  thing  to  say,  afler  we  had  gone  through. 

Did  you  attend  at  the  seventh  meeting  ? — 
I  did  not. 

Did  you  expect  that,  at  that  meeting,  the 
eommittee  would  be  concludeid  P — I  did  not ;  I 
was  obhsed  to  go  upon  business  in  the  coun- 
tiy,  as  I  told  your  lordships  before;  when  I 
relumed,  I  waited  upon,  1  forget  who,  I  think 


Mr.  IbbetsoQ,  and  first  heard  from  him,  that 
the  committee  was  put  an  end  to ;  I  was  sur- 
prised at  it ;  I  waited  then  upon  Mr.  Barker, 
sir  William  James,  and  Mr.  Wells,  and  they 
told  me  the  reasons  of  it;  and  they  have 
fiven  me  ver^  satisfactoiy  reasons  why  tliey^ 
aid  not  act  unproperly  m  putting  an  end 
to  it 

You  did  not  expect  it  would  be  over  in  one 
day  ? — I  did  not. 

Do  you  recollect,  that  you  premised  to  cap- 
tain Baillie,  when  Mr.  Morjgan  haid  jgone 
through  the  charges  which  he  had  pomted 
out  as  against  his  clients,  that  captain  Baillie 
should  proceed  to  call  evidence  on  matters 
which  had  not  been  investigated,  which  had 
not  been  fully  entered  into?-* I  don't  recollect 
any  promise ;  I  did  not  think  myself  authoris- 
ed to  make  any  promise  to  Mr.  UaiUie ;  when 
Mr.  Baillie  wanted  to  produce  evidence,  and 
hinder  our  proceedings,  in  what  we  thought 
the  proper,  regulaur  mode  of  proceeding,  I  said» 
don't  interrupt  our  proceedings,  when  we  are 
done,  if  there  are  any  zrievances,  if  you  have 
any  thing  to  say,  I  diall  be  for  sittmg  upon 
them ;  I  don't  recollect  making  any  promise 
in  the  way  it  is  stated  .there. 

You  said  it  as  chairman  ? — I  said  it  sitting 
there. 

Was  that  contradicted  by  any  one  ?— No ; 
Mr.  Baillie  seemed  satisfied  with  that,  and 
then  went  on  with  the  business. 

Do  you  imagine  that  Mr.  Baillie  r^iedupon 
what  ^ou  hacTsaid,  that  he  was  to  produce 
his  evidence } — I  suppose  he  did ;  he  relied 
only  upon  me  as  one ;  I  was  only  one  in  the 
committee;  he  did  not  desire  to  have  the 
sense  of  the  committee  taken. 

Was  any  objection  made  to  it  by  any  body, 
at  the  time  you  said  so  ? — ^None  at  all. 

Do  not  you  particidarly  remember  having 
repeated  this  promise,  or  whatever  you  pleaae 
to  call  it,  wnen  the  «>wns  of  uie  nurses 
were  shewn  to  you  ?— -I  think  it  is  likely ; 
I  said,  several  tunes,  Mr.  Baillie,  do  not  in- 
terfere in  our  proceedings  now,  we  are  exam- 
ining into  the  Complaints  agsunst  you;  and 
when  we  have  done,  though  you  protest 
sygainst  us  as  an  illegal  tribunal,  yet  if  there 
are  any  abuses  in  the  Hospital  after  that,  we 
shall  dunk  it  right  to  enqjuire  into  them. 

Do  you  remember,  that  the  protection  of 
the  committee  was  claimed  for  the  nurses 
who  had  been  threatened  ?^Yes. 

To  have  the  protection  of  the  committee, 
upon  some  suggestion,  that  the  nurses  were 
browbeat  or  menaced? — I  reme^nber  tha 
committee  was  exceeding  an^  about  it,  and 
said,  they  would  not  admit  ot  any  such  thing; 
and  desired,  if  any  threats  had  been  used, 
none  were  proved,  they  should  have  every 
protection  to  give  their  evidehce;  and  the 
nurses  were  tora  they  should. 

Did  the  committee  say  that,  without  hav- 
ing any  authority  for  imagining  there  had 
been  some  menaces  ? — ^No  other  authority,  I 
believe^  but  what  Mr.  Baillie  said. 


SU] 


18  GEORGfE  III.  The  Case  6f  Captain  Thomas  SoUitf         1319 


Was  that  denied  by  the  people  of  whom  it 
was  said? — I  don't  recollect;  the  committee 
said,  the  nurses  ought  to  know  that  they  were 
protected  by  the  committee. 

Do  you  recollect  any  instances  of  improper 
or  insulting  behaviour,  to  the  lieutenant-go- 
vernor, before  the  committee? — There  were 
two  instances ;  particularly,  I  remember,  the 
rev.  Mr.  Cooke  and  Mr.  Mylnc^  there  were 

auarrels  among  them  constantly  m  the  room; 
bey  behaved  very  indecentlv  to  the  com- 
mittee, on  all  sicies ;  we  could  hardly  keep 
them  quiet;  they  abused  Mr.  Baillie,  and  he 
them.  Mr.  Cooke,  I  recollect,  abused  him ; 
and  Mr.  Milne  thought  himself  ill  used,  by 
the  charges  brought  against  him,  and  he  did 
abuse  him,  in  the  committee,  several  times. 
There  were  ereat  indecencies  on  all  sides; 
we  could  haraly  go  on  with  the  business.' 

Where  did  that  originate? — ^I  remember 
Mr.  Cooke  called  Mr.  &dllie  blackguard,  or 
raacal. 

Mr.  Cooke,  the  chaplain  ? — Yes. 

Calling    the    lieutenant-governor    black- 

Suard? — ^Yes;  blackguard,  rascal,  or  scoun- 
rel,  or  some  expression  that  was  very  inde- 
cent; and  I  thought  so  at  the  time. 

With  regard  to  Mr.  Mylne;  what  did  he 
say  ? — ^There  was  some  expression  of  the  same 
sort  in  Mr.  Mylne,  that  1  thought  he  ought 
not  to  have  made  use  of  in  the  committee, 
and  something  of  the  same  kind ;  then  Mr. 
Baillie  made  use  of  insulting  expressions  to 
them,  at  the  same  time ;  in  short,  they  quar- 
rellea  among  themselves. 

That  is  what  I  enquire  after;  with  whom 
did  that  originate?—!  don't  recollect;  Ire- 
member  tellm^  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke,  that  he 
behaved  very  indecently  to  the  committee. 

But  should  you  have  been  angry  with  Mr. 
Cooke,  if  Mr.  Baillie  was  the  aggressor  ? — He 
behaved  very  indecent  to  us ;  he  said  we  were 
a  partial  committee,  an  ille^  tribunal,  he 
would  have  nothing  to  do  with  us,  we  were 
partial;  I  could  hardly  be  restrained  from 
turning  him  out  of  the  room,  he  behaved  so 
rude  at  particular  times;  I  appealed  to  Mr. 
Cowley ;  I  said,  you,  Sir,  are  a  moderate  man, 
let  Mr.  Baillie  put  his  affiiirs  into  your  handfi, 
we  shall  then  go  on  with  our  enquiry,  and 
soon  get  rid  of  it ;  I  must  do  Mr.  Cowley  that 
justice  lO  aay,  that  he  behaved  properly. 

Did  those  words,  illegal  or  partial,  seem  to 
apply  to  the  committee,  as  to  their  coiKluct 
in  the  enquiry,  or  to  their  being  directors  ? — 
To  their  conduct  .in  the  enqcury.  I  will  do 
Mr.  Cowley  the  justice  to  say,  that  he  did 
never,  while  I  was  chabman,  make  use  of 
any  indecent  expressions  whatever,  but  be- 
haved very  moderately,  and  with  great  pro- 
priety during  the  whole  time. 

Whether,  as  a  director  of  the  Hospital,  and 
as  a  member  of  the  committee,  you  don't 
know,  that  many  of  the  charges  contained  in 
the  C^tse  of  the  Hospital,  as  laid  before  the 
general  court,  are  substantially  true  ? — That 
18  a  question;  I  am  sure,  I  cannot  answer,  that 


they  are  substantially  true ;  they  maybe  sub- 
stantially, true  many  of  them,  and  be  remo- 
died ;  I  am  sure  the  charge  about  the  meat 
is  remedied ;  so  many  of  tnem  might  be  true^ 
and  be  remedied  since. 

I  do  not  mean  those  that  have  been  re* 
medied  since,  but  those  that  then  existed?— 
We  did  not  examine  properly  into  them. 

The  linen  ? — I  don't  think  the  charges  or 
the  linen  at  all. proved. 

The  shoes?— Nor  the  shoes;  the  &alt  did 
not  lie  there,  it  lay  with  the  directors,  if  there 
were  any  fault  in  their  contracts,  therefore  we 
could  not  enquire  properly  into  it,  we  did  not 
think  ourselves  authorized  to  do  it 

Whether  the  complaint  that  the  abuse  ex- 
isted is  not  substantially  true  ?— -I  do  not  think 
we  enquired  fully  enough  Into  it,  to  say  there 
was,  some  enquiry  about  shoes  I  remember. 

Did  I  understand  you  right  or  wrong? — We 
made  enquiry  into  the  shoes,  and  some  of 
them  appeared  to  be  very  bad,  but  there  were 
reasons  given  for  the  badness  of  the  shoes ;. 
they  were  satisfactory  reasons,  but  I  dcm't 
now  remember  what  they  were. 

What  could  be  the  satisfactory  reasons  that 
could  be  given,  why  the  shoes  were  bad  ?— 
That  I  cannot  tell ;  there  were  very  few  that 
were  bad ;  I  don't  remember  what  the  reasons 
were  now. 

Do  you  conceive  there  can  be  a  saUs&ctorj 
reason  siven,  why  some  of  the  shoes  of  the 
Hospital  should  be  bad?— If  complaints  were 
madfe  and  not  redressed,  to  be  sure  that  is 
wrong,  but  I  know  that  they  were  bad. 

And  the  gowns  of  the  women?— They  were 
not  so  good  as  they  had  been  formerly ;  but 
then,  that  must  have  been  the  fault,  I  should 
think,  of  the  directors,  in  treating  for  these 
gowns,  or  not  giving  the  same  price ;  I  cannot 
tell  how  that  was,  mey  were  not  so  good  as 
the  others. 

Do  you  think  that  it  is  true,  that  there 
have  been  several  landmen  admitted  into  the 
Hospital  ?— Certainly. 

Do  you  look  upon  that  to  be  contrary  to 
the  chapter,  or  what? — That  is  in  the  report 
that  came  under  the  head  of  the  charge 
against  Mr.  Godby,  the  steward;  the  charee 
against  him  was,  that  he  had  been  illegaAjr 
appointed,  being  a  landman;  .the  comnuttee 
have  reported  what  appeared  to  them  upon 
that  head.  I  believe,  I  am  sure  we  reported 
this ;  when  captain  Baillie  stated  it,  we  were 
of  opinion  we  were  not  judges,  what  ¥ras  legal 
or  illegal,  and  we  did  report  it;  it  stands  in 
some  part  of  the  report,  that  we  dkl  not  think 
ourselves  competent  to  enquire  into  that,  be« 
cause  it  was  stated  as  an  illegal  thing.  I  don't 
pretend  to  judge  of  charters ;  if  I  was  to  judee^ 
I  should  much  doubt,  whether  many  of  Uie 
^ntlemcn  said  to  be  oiBcers,  are  officers  with- 
in the  charter ;  but  that  there  may  be  land- 
men appointed  to  offices ;  but  tiiat  I  am  not 
competent  to  judge  of;  it  is  a  matter  of  law. 

Whether  women  have  not  been  appointed 
matrons,  that  are  not  widows  of  officers?— 


515]         retpeaifig  ike  Ro^  HoipUal  ai 

Yes;  I  think  that  did  appear;  one  in  the 
time  of  lord  Egmont,  and  one  in  the  time  of 
lord  Hawke. 

Did  that  appear  to  be  contraty  to  the  charter 
or  not? — ^That  I  will  not  pretend  to  judge  of; 
that  is  a  matter  proper  for  your  lordships  to 
judge  of;  I  beg  not  to  give  an  opinion  about  it 

I  ask  your  opinion,  what  you  judged  as  a 
director  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  whemer  you 
did  judge? — Not  havine  the  apjwintment  of 
them,  we  formed  no  juc^^nent  or  it. 

Did  you  ever  read  the  charier  ? — ^No,  never 
read  it  an^  further  than  as  contained  in  cap- 
lain  Bailhe^s  book ;  I  never  saw  the  charter.* 

Whether  there  has  not  been  a  great  deal  of 
money  spent  in  making  ornamental  altera- 
tions ana  improvements  in  the  Hospital,  and 
in  cleaning  of  pictures  ? — There  has  oeen  none 
made  but  what  was  by  the  order  of  the  gene- 
ral court;  we  looked  upon  the  act  of  parlia- 
ment that  gave  the  Derwentwatcr  estate, 
gave  it,  in  the  firstinstance,  for  improvements 
f^  the  Hospital,  and  to  complete  it  according 
to  its  first  plan,  and  then  should  go  to  the 
tnes  of  the  charity ;  and  that  mone  v  nas  been 
laid  out  every  year  for  a  number  of  years,  but 
it  is  not  yet  completed. 

Whether  the'  price  for  the  shoe^  and  stock- 
ings' of  the  pensioners  has  not  been  reduced  ? 
—3  don't  recollect,  that  will  appear  from  the 
minutes  of  the  committee. 

Do  not  you  know  that  the  price  now  given 
for  shoes  and  stockings  has  been  less  lately 
than  formerly  ? — ^I  doirt  recollect ;  it  is  in  the 
proceedings  of  the  directors,  if  it  b  so. 

Would  vou  think  it  proper  for  the  direc- 
tors to  reduce  the  price  of  snoes  and  stockings 
for  the  pensioners,  at  the  time  they  were  lay- 
ing out  great  sums  of  money  for  cleaning 
pi^ores,  and  for  ornaments  ? — ^I  don't  think 
they  oi^ht,  so  as  to  make  the  shoes  and 
stockings  bad. 

Do  not  you  know  that  the  men  have  com- 
plained of  their  shoes  and  stockings  ? — There 
are  complaints,  and  always  wiU  be  in  such  a 
number  of  men ; '  but  the  generality  of  the 
pensioners  don't  think,  I  believe,  tljat  they 
are  worse  than  they  used  to  be. 

Was  any  enquiry  made  into  that  regu- 
larly?— ^I  don't  recollect  whether  there  was 
or  not. 

But  the  shoes  you  remember  ? — ^I  remember 
something  being  done  about  the  shoes,  and 
some  were  bad,  one  or  two  pair  that  were 
brought. 

Was  there  but  one  or  two  pair  brought  ? — 
I  don't  think  that  theie  were  more  than  half 
a  -dozen  complained  of. 

Was  that  examined  into  anv  further?  Were 
any  number  of  pensioners  called  to  examine> 

*  Mr.  Cost  Itts  been  many  jean  a  direoior  of  the 
Hos|pitaJ,  and  bis  warrant  ai  soohp  aajs,  "  You  are 
to  gorem  jovrvelf  according  to  the  charter,"  which 
•vwjr  director  i»  or  ooght  to  be  in  posiession  of; 
yet  it  appeari  he  never  had  the  cnrioiilj  to  read  or 
ensure  aftor  it.    Orig,  Ed, 


A.  D.  ms. 


[31^ 


to  see  if  Cere  were  any  more  ? — ^I  remember, 
by  the  examination  that  was  made  into  it,  it 
appeared,  that  a  few  pairs  were  brought  in 
as  bad,  out  of  a  great  number  that  weie 
brought  in. 

Did  not  captain  BailUe  propose  to  bring  in 
30  men  out  of  the  guard,  to  examine  into 
that? — I  know  it  was  proposed  to  take  so 
men  out  of  the  guard,  but  whether  it  was  for    * 
the  shoes  or  no  I  cannot  say. 

Don't  you  know,  that  it  was  principally  by 
the  means  and  activity  of  captain  Baillie,  that 
the  butcher's  man  was  transported  for  stealing 
the  meat ?~ Possibly  it  might;  Mr.  Baillie, 
in  that  business,  was  very  active,  and  the  di- 
rectors were  very  active  likewise  in  it;  but 
that  is  an  old  thing,  of  long  standing,  and  I 
don't  remember  it  without  referring  to  the 
books. 

Do  not  yoa  know,  that  captain  Baillie  was 
active  and  instrumental  in  convicting  tiie  con- 
tracting butcher  ? — I  have  heard  he  was  in- 
strumental in  it,  and  so  were  the  directors ; 
he  was  instrumental  in  it  as  a  dbrector; 
I  understand  the  moment  the  complaint  was 
made  of  the  butcher,  the  directors  ordered 
their  solicitor  to  prosecute. 

Was  not  the  contract  renewed  with  that 
butcher  during  the  pendenc^^  of  that  prosecu- 
tion, and  after  he  was  convicted  ? — I  beheve 
it  was;  we  have  great  difficulties  to  know 
what  to  do  in  these  cases ;  the  same  thing 
has  happened  since  this  enquiry ;  there  has 
been  a  contract  made,  at  which  I  happened 
to  attend ;  at  the  board  we  were  under  diffi- 
culties, we  did  not  what  to  do,  and  agreed 
with  this  contracting  butcher  again.  The  of- 
ficers of  the  Hospiul  may  prevent  bad  meat 
by  the  contract ;  they  may  return  it  back,  and 
go  to  market  and  buv  fresh  meat ;  we  are 
obhged  to  contract  with  the  lowest  that  ofiers; 
an(L  in  consequence  of  that,  any  person  under 
a  feigned  name  may  come,  and  bid;  if 
he  is  the  lowest  price,  we  must  take  him ; 
we  don't  know  the  person ;  we  were  under 
difficulty  how  to  act;  the  last  time  there 
was  an  advertisement  put  in  for  three 
weeks  or  a  month,  to  serve  us  for  six  months 
or  twelve ;  I  happened  to  be  at  the  board, 
there  were  only  two  persons  put  in,  and  the 
difference  was  a  saving  to  the  Hospital,  in  the 
year,  350/.  We  could  not  consent  to  contract 
with  a  maiK  and  give  him  350/.  more  than 
another.  I  was  not  at  the  board  when  that 
was  executed ;  but  I  was  at  the  board  when 
the  contract  was  made  with  this  man,  who  I 
understand  to  be  the  son ;  that  was  made  the 
other  day,  and  if  we  had  not  done  it,  we  must 
have  given  350/.  from  the  Hospital.  I  do  not 
know  now  we  can  act  otherwise,  unless  we 
had  a  discretionary  power  to  take  other  per- 
sons ;  and  that  would  be  attended,  in  my  opi- 
nion, with  more  mischief. 

Do  you  think  the  directors  have  not  a  dis- 
cretionary power? — They  never  exercised  that 
discretion  out  once,  and  that  was  in  the 
Painted-hall;  if  they  took  the  bwest  bidder^ 


81S\ 


U  GEORGE  III. 


ifCofUdi 


[SIS 


H  nugtt  be  fll  done,  and  ^ley  jrould  not 
have  an  opportunity  of  finding  it  out;  but 
with  respect  to  the  meat,  it  is  the  officers' 
duty  to.  see  the  meat  ia  ^ood,  and  we 
could  not  find  it  out  in  the  Painted-hall; 
and  therefore,  I  was  one  of  those  that,  with 
respect  to  the  Painted-hall,  thought  it  not 
rient  to  advertise  when  that  matter  was 
tsScen  up ;  but  it  was  not  done  in  any  other 
instance. 

Am  I  to  understand  from  you,  that  there  is 
a  discretion  in  the  directors,  not  to  advertise 
to  take  Ihe  lowest  bidder,  and  in  the  case  of 
the  Painted-hall  they  used  that  discretion? — 
I  donH  know  whether  we  did  not  take  that 
matter  wrong  upon  ourselves. 

What  restrains  you  from  having  that  dis- 
cretion ?  Do  you  know  of  any  law  or  usage  to 
the  contrary  ? — I  know  of  no  law ;  the  fear  of 
having  ereater  jobs  in  the  Hospital,  have  al- 
ways mduced  them  to  take  the  lowest  bidder. 

Nothing  has  restrained  them  but  discretion? 
—Nothing  but  discretion. 

The  reason  you  have  ^ven  why  the  Paints 
ed-hall  was  not  advertised,  was,  that  being 
done  at  the  lowest  price,  it  might  be  done  by 
dishonest  persons  ? — ^Yes. 

In  what  light  did  you  look  upon  Mr.  Mel- 
lish  after  having  been  convictea  ? — ^In  an  im- 

E roper  lijght ;  but  I  don't  know  how  one  can 
dp  taking  him ;  if  Mr.  Mellish  had  substi- 
tuted any  person  else,  and  he  had  been  the 
lowest  bidder,  we  miist  have  took  him ;  so  it 
^^peared  to  me. 

I  understood  you  that  it  was  in  the  discre- 
tion of  the  directors  ? — I  should  have  thought 
that  a  very  improper  thing  for  discretion ; 
because  it  is  in  the  power  of  the  officers  to 
prevent  any  abuse,  because  they  may  return 
It,  and  gt)  to  market  for  fresh. 

But  dkl  not  that  abuse  exist  for  a  lone 
time  ?— It  did. 

Then  that  guard  was  not  sufficient  for  the 
purpose  ? — ^But  I  hope  it  will  be  in  fiiture,  or 
some  others  found  out,  but  I  don't  know  of 

Don't  you  know  there  were  many  com- 
plaints and  disturbances  amon^  the  men '. 
about  the  beer? — I  said  before,  I  thousht  that 
an  old  ai&ur  that  vns  taken  up  by  the  civil 
officers ;  it  was  their  business  to  do  it,  and  it 
was  remedied.  I  forget  whether  we  went 
into  it  or  not,  perhaps  we  read  some  of  the 
minutes. 

Do  you  mean  to  say,  that  the  complaints 
contained  in  captain  BaiUic's  book,  that  had 
been  remedied,  were  admitted  to  be  true  ? — 
Yes,  I  should  suppose  they  were. 

Do  you  recollect  having  said,  at  the  com- 
mittee, that  though  captam  BaiUic's  zeal  for 
the  pensioners  might  sometimes  carry  him 
too  rar,  yet,  upon  we  whole,  his  conduct  was 
meritorious,  and  ought  to  be  considered? — 
Not  meritorious,  ana  ought  to  be  considered ; 
I  never  was  of  that  opinion ;  I  am  pretty  sure 
I  never  said  that. 

Do  you  tiiink  it  b  meritorious  ?— In  what 
respect  think  so  f 


As  having  done  justice  .to  Ibe  peniuoners. — 
I  believe  ml  Mr.  foiMie  has  done  a  gret* 
many  good  things  in  the  Hospital ;  and,  io> 
many  instances,  has  done  his  duty  as  a  very 
gcx)d  officer;  and  so  have  oth^  people  aa- 
good  officers ;  I  have  no  doubt  about  that ;  £ 
never  heard  any  complaint  against  Mr.  Bail- 
lie;  I  have  been  sixteen  or  seventeen  years  in 
the  Hospital ;  I  have  nOt  attended  so  often  a» 
I  ought  to  do;  my  business  was  so  much,  I 
have  not  attended  my  duty  so  nouchas  I- 
ought  to  do ;  but  whenever  I,  have,  I  have- 
never  seen  any  thing,  on  the  part  of  Mr. 
Baillie,  that  was  reprehen»ble,  any  more  than 
one  of  the  rest;  so  much  did  I  conceive  Mr. 
Baillie  a  good  officer,  that  when  this  book 
came  out,  I  own  I  never  was  so  much  asto- 
nished in  my  life ;  when  I  saw  all  these  vint- 
lent  complaints  against  those  officers  with 
whom  he  seemed  to  sit  in  such  friendship  ^ 
I  have  often  been  in  hib  company ;  I  never 
heard  him  complain  of  them ;  and  I  was  asto- 
nished when  I  read  this  book ;  but  as  an  of^ 
ficer  in  the  Hospital,  I  never  heard  any  com- 
plaint  against  him. 

Recollect,  whether  you  did  not  say,,  at  thaC 
committee,  that  baptain  Baillie,  though  his> 
zeal  for  the  pensioners  might  sometimes 
carry  him  too  far,  yet  upon  the  whole,  hi» 
conduct  was  meritorious,  and  ought  to  be  con- 
sidered?— I  could  not  say  that,  when  I  con- 
sider aU  these  charges  as  ui\|ust  and  maJiciousy 
in  thenaselves,  against  the  officers^  as  they  ap- 
pear  to  me  to  be. 

Did  you  say  so  ?— I  think  not ;  I  don't  re- 
collect that  I  did. 

What  were  the  proceedings,  after  this  re* 
port,  in  August, at  tne  genenu  court? — ^Atthe 
general  court ;  we  met,  and  I  was  chairmaa 
of  the  committee ;  having  delivered  the  re- 
port, I  though  it  my  duty  to  suggest  to  the 
court,  that  I  thought  there  ought  to  be  some 
proceedings  upon  it;  and  acconlinglyl  stated 
to  the  court  what  appeared  to  me  upon  the 
report;  and  I  made  a  motion,  that  the 
charges  against  the  several  officers,  were  ia 
my  opinion,  in  gjeneral,  malicious  and  void  of 
founoation ;  and  that  report  was  agreed  to  by 
the  general  court ;  then  another  gentiemaa  ia 
the  court  made  a  motion  for  the  removal  of 
captain  Baillie ;  which  I  agreed  to. 

What  gentieman? — Mr.  Hicks  was  the 
gentleman  that  made  that  motion. 

I  think  you  said  you  were  not  present  at  the 
last  day  ? — I  was  not. 

Then  how  could  you  sign  a  report  of  a  com- 
mittee, and  aftenwds  make  a  motion  to  re- 
move captain  BailUe,  for  complaints  which^ 
you  say,  were  malicious  and  ill-roimded,  when 
you  bad  not  yourself  attended  at  the  proceed- 
ings of  the  last  day  ? — Both  of  us  signed  ; 
therefore  I  consider  my  name  as  only  going 
to  the  six  days  that  I  attended ;  and  in  those 
six  days  thiat  I  attended,  there  appeared 
to  me  sufficient  ground  to  say,  tnat  the 
charges  against  those  genUemen  were  mali- 
cious and  void  of  foundation;  indeed  I  thougfal 
so,  and  think  so  still. 


317]       riipecHng  the  Royal  HospHal  at  Grehimch.  A.  D.  1778. 


[318 


Hkd  jour  signinsj  does  not  go  to  the  seventh 
day?— No;  I  considered  it  only  as  to  the  six 
mys  in  which  I  attended. 

Then  you  did  not  take  upon  you  to  sav, 
tfaatoo  tKe  seventh  dav  the  charges  were  mafi- 
doos  ind  ill-founded  ?— No ;  I  only  consi- 
dered it  as  confined  to  the  sis  days. 

What  was  the  motion  made  afterwards  bv 
Mr.  Hicks?— 'A  motion  to  remove  Mr.  Bail- 
lie;  and  it  vras  agreed  to  by  the  court ;  the 
I  lords  of  the  Admiralty  afterwards  did  not  re- 
I  more  him,  but  suspeiKied  him ;  and  I  under- 
ftood  it  to  be,  because  there  was  a  trial  de- 
peodiDg  in  a  court  of  law;  and  when  that 
trial  was  over,  and  nothing  in  it  appearing  to 
vindicate  captain  Baillie's  character ;  for  we 
Qoderstood  tne  trial  (but  I  was  not  present  at 
it)  that  it  was  improperly  brought;  first,  be- 
ouse  the  book  itself  was  not  a  published 
Iftel,  bat  a  memorial,  complsuning  of  abuses; 
but  I  was  not  present  at  the  trial ;  after  that 
was  over,  there  vras  a  meeting  of  the  Hospital , 
ad  at  that  meeting  it  appeared  to  me,  at  least 
in  the  debates  upon  it,  that  the  Hospital  suf- 
fered very  much  for  want  of  a  lieutenant-go- 
venior;  \t  is  an  office  of  very  great  impor- 
tance in  the  Hospital,  and  therefore  we  agreed 
upon  another  letter  or  memorial  to  the  Admi- 
ralty, to  desire,  that  now  the  trial  was  over,  if 
that  had  been  the  cause  of  the  suspension  of 
Mr.  Baillie,  we  desired  Mr.  Baillie  might  be 
lemoved,  and  another  lieutenant-govemor^p- 
pointed. 

I  think  you  said,  that  when  captain  Baillie 
protested  against  the  court  of  enauiry,  he  did 
It  because  they  were  directors  r — Directors 
improper  to  enauire  into  their  own  conduct. 

1  think  you  nave  stated,  that  you  agreed 
with  him  in  that,  that  they  ought  not  to  en- 
quire into  their  own  conduct? — I  did. 

And  therefore  nothing  relative  to  that  was 
enquired  into  ? — Nothing  was  enquired  into ; 
but  there  is  a  report  upon  it.  [Reads.]  **  In 
Rgard  to  what  concerns  the  directors,  your 
conunittee  found  themselves  in  a  verv  delicate 
situation,  to  have  referred  to  them  the  consi- 
deraUon  of  matters  in  which  they  themselves 
vere  supposed  to  be  interested ;  they,  there- 
fore, thought  it  necessary  to  convene  all  the 
Erectors  they  possibly  could,  captain  Baillie 
excepted,  wno^  by  way  of  answer  to  the 
charges,  have  resolved.''  So  these  are  to  be 
Qonaidered  onty  as  answers  to  Mr.  Baillie's 
book,  without  proof  on  either  side;  the  reso- 
lulioa  made  by  thtoiselves  as  an  answer  to 
the  charges. 

Then,  though  the  board  of  Admiralty  di- 
'Mted  that  the  several  charges  in  captain 
Baittie'sbook  should  be  enquired  into,  that 
committee  did  not  enquire  into  those  tiiat 
concerned  the  directors  ? — Certainly,  they  did 
not 

Am  I  to  infer  from  thence,  that  as  far  a» 
*PP«rs  by  that  report,  that  there  is  no  dis- 
pioval  of  any  thing  captain  Bsullie  has  said 
'^five  to  the  directors  r— Certainly ;  unless 
wc  answers  they  have  given  is  a  refutation  of  " 
a,  certainly  aoproQf  at  all,  * 


Then,  upon  the  other  point,  a  letter  was 
written  to  the  board  of  Admiralty  to  desire 
captain  Baillie  to  be  removed  ?— Yes,  it  was. 

Whom  vras  that  letter  signed  by?— I  be- 
lieve by  all  the  directors ;  I  know  I  signed  it 
for  one. 

Did  not  the  committee  also  refuse  to  ex*- 
mine  into  any  thinz  that  concerned  the  ap- 
pomtments  of  the  Admiralty,  or  of  tlie  first 
lord  of  the  Admiralty .?-— They  did ;  they  did 
not  choose  to  do  it ;  they  thought  it  too  high  a 
court  to  enquire  into ;  and  they  are  not  en- 
quired into. 

Therefore  any  thing  stated  relative  to  them 
may  be  true  ? — It  appears  to  me  to  be  rather, 
though  a  very  small  one ;  but  it  is  a  small 
libel  against  all  the  great  officers  of  state,  for 
not  attending  their  duty  as  commissioners; 
that  was  not  enquired  into ;  there  were  some 
libellous  charges  a^inst  the  governor,  that 
were  not  enquired  into;  and  against  the  first 
lord  of  the  Admiralty,  and  all  tne  other  lords 
of  the  Admiralty.' 

None  of  those  matters  that  respect  a  com- 
plaint against  the  court  of  directors,  the  Ad- 
miralty, or  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty,  the 
general  court,  and  governor,  were  enquired 
into  ? — ^They  were  not. 

I  think  you  have  said,  in  answer  to  a  ques- 
tion that  was  asked  you,  that  there  were  ma^ 
trons  appointed,  that  were  not  properly  ap- 
pointed, not  being  the  daughters  or  wives  of 
seamen  ? — So  I  have  understood. 

Whether  it  appears  that  any  of  those  were 
appointed  by  the  person  who  is  now  first  lord 
of  the  Admiralty  r — It  does  not ;  I  said  I  un- 
derstood lord  Egmont  was  one,  and  lord 
Hawke  the  other. 

Viscount  Dudley,  I  would  wish  to  know  of 
you,  whether  vou  do  not  think  nicture-clean- 
ms  is  a  very  delicate  and  nice  business  ? — A, 
I  do. 

If  you  had  pictures  to  clean,  whether  you 
would  not  enquire  for  men  of  the  greatest  note 
in  this  country;  or  whether  you  would  em- 
ploy those  that  should  offer  to  do  it  cheapest  ? 
Don't  you  think  that  a  man  that  ofiered  to  do 
it  cheap,  might  probably  spoil  your  picture  ? 
— I  do  think  so. 

If  the  Painted-hall  had  been  spoiled,  do 
you  think  they  would  have  got  mucn  by  hav- 
me  it  done  by  a  cheap  hand  1— I  don't. 

Whether  aJl  the  evidence  befojre  the  com- 
mittee was  taken  down  in  writing  ?— I  think 
it  was ;  we  had  a  clerk  that  attended ;  and 
whenever  I  found  that  he  did  not  take  it 
down,  I  went  on  slow,  and  desired  him  to 
take  it  down ;  but  I  will  not  answer  for  the 
clerk's  having  taken  any  thing  down. 

Af^er  you  had  gone'  through,  was  it  not 
frequently  read  over  again  ?— Sometimes;  not 
always. 

Was  it  not,  if  any  member,  or  the  witness 
himself,  desired  it?---Certainly ;  but  I  am  not 
sure  tbat  it  was  dbne  in  all  cases. 

You  were  at  the  appointment  of  the  com- 
mittee; as  a  membei  of  the  general  court;  it 


919]  - 18  GEORGE  III;  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaUUe^ 


[380 


is  mentioned  that  the  first  lord  of  the  Admi- 
ralty named  the  committee,  now  I  desire  to 
know,  whether  they  were  named  by  him,  or 
proposed  to  the  committee,  and  chosen  by 
them  as  proper  persons  ? — ^As  far  as  I  remem- 
ber of  that  matter,  I  have  stated  before,  that 
your  lordship  (lord  Sandwich)  did  ask  Mr. 
Baillie ;  Mr.  Bailhe,  you  iiave  said  there  are 
men  of  worth  and  honour  attend  at  the  board ; 
will  you  point  them  out,  because  I  shall  pro- 
pose to  tne  general  court,  that  they  shoula  be 
the  men.  Mr.  Baillie  said,  I  dislike  your  pro- 
ceedings, or  something  of  that  kind,  and  will 
have  nothing  to  do  wiSi  it ;  upon  which  your 
lordship  desired  the  list  of  directors  to  be  read, 
and  seemed  very  desirous  that  those  directors 
only  should  be  taken  against  whom  there 
could  be  no  objection ;  that  I  take  to  be  the 
case* 

Was  not  Mr.  Baillie  offered  to  leave  out 
any  of  those,  if  he  had  any  objection  ? — ^Yes ; 
certainly. 

The  Earl  of  Sandwich.  This  that  I  have  in 
my  hand  is  a  letter,  lying  upon  the  table, 
written  by  captain  Bailue  to  the  general  court: 
this  is  a  paragraph  in  it :  ^  I  meant  to  appeal 
to  a  court  of  all  the  great  and  noble  person- 
ages who  are  named  in  the  charter  as  gover- 
nors and  commissioners  of  the  Hospitsu ;  in- 
stead of  which,  I  was  informed  by  lord  &md- 
wich  at  the  court,  that  no^e  were  summoned 
at  the  general  courts,  but  those  whom  he 
thinks  proper.''  This  is  in  the  letter ;  I  de- 
sire to  know  from  you,  whether  you  heard 
any  such  words  as  those  come  out  of  my 
mouth,  that  non^  should  be  summoned,  but 
those  I  thought  proper. — A,  I  certainly  did 
not;  it  is  now  a  great  while  since,  that  I 
should  not  depend  upon  my  memory,  but  your 
lordship  did  call  upon  me  at  the  next  general 
courts  and  then  I  said  there  were  no  such 
words. 

Did  I  call  upon  any  other  persons  besides 
yourself,  to  ask  whether  that  assertion,  of 
captain  BailUe's  was  true  or  false  ? — ^Yes,  you 
did. 
Upon  how  many  ?— I  cannot  tell  how  many. 
Did  I  call  upon  all  the  members  present  ? 
— ^I  think  you  called  upon  all  the  members 
present. 

What  was  their  answer? — ^The  same  as 
mine ;  that  they  never  heard  your  lordship 
make  use  of  any  such  expression. 

Did,  at  that  meeting,  captain  Baillie  own 
himself  to  be  the  writer  of  that  printed  Me- 
morial?— ^Yes;  adding,  at  the  same  time, 
"tiiat  he  had  not  published  it,  I  think ;  and 
that  it  was  only  meant  as  a  Memorial  to  the 
•  commissioners. 

H6  owned  himself  the  author  of  it?— Yes; 
he  said  he  was  the  author  of  it. 

Whether  you  ever  read  the  list  of  the  go- 
vernors and  commissioners  of  the  Hospital  ? 
— No;  i  never  read  it;  but  I  understand 
that  the  great  officers  of  state,  not  by  name, 
but  those  that  are  great  officers  of  state,  are 
•onunidsioQers  of  t&  HospitaL 


I  suppose  you  don't*  understand  that  there 
are  a  number  of  officers  who  are  not  officers 
of  state? — ^Yes;  there  arc  commissioners  of 
the  navy ;  there  are  two  or  three  of  the  Tri- 
nity-house, I  believe,  that  do  attend  now  and 
then  at  the  board  that  I  have  seen  there ;  but 
I  don't  know  who  compose  the  whole  court. 

The  Duke  of  BoUon.  Whether  you  don't 
think  that  it  was  an  easy  matter  to  have 
found  seven  persons,  who  were  governors  and 
commissioners  of  the  Hospital,  that  were  not 
directors,  to  have  formed  a  committee  of  en-* 
quiry,  without  going  to  those  whom  you  call 
the  great  officers  of  state?— I  very  much 
doubt  it;  I  will  not  speak  positively  to  that 
point :  I  don't  think  that  seven  people  could 
nave  been  found  who  would  have  attend^ 
that  would  have  made  a  part  in  that  en- 
quiry. 

Don't  you  know  that  all  the  admirals  of  his 
majesty's  fleet  are  commissioners  of  Green- 
wich Hospital?—-!  don't  know;  I  dkl  not 
spesJc  of  tne  admirals ;  I  did  not  know  that 
they  were  cotnmissioners. 

Suppose  they  all  are ;  don't  you  imagine  it 
an  easy  matter  to  have  found  seven  oi  them 
to  compose  a  committee  of  enquiry  ?^-Ana- 
ther  thmg  is,  would  the^r  have  attended  ?  that 
is  a  mere  matter  of  opinion. 

Was  there  any  obligation  upon  you  to  at- 
tend ?— None  in  the  world ;  I  did  not  deure 
to  be  appointed. 

Before  that  happened,  who  could  have  an- 
swered for  you  ?  Is  it  not  a  similar  case  be- 
tween you  and  another  person  ?  Who,  before 
it  happened,  could  be  certain  they  would  ob- 
ject to  attend? — We  that  were  appointed 
were  all  present ;  and  were  asked  if  we  would 
undertake  it ;  we  said  yes,  and  were  ready  to 
undertake  it  now ;  if  you  had  appointed  seven 
admirals  that  were  not  present,  (for  I  don*t 
recollect  there  was  any  one  there)  and  they 
would  not  have  attended,  the  committee 
would  not  have  been  formed. 

Do  you  know  that  any  others  were  sum- 
moned ? — ^No. 

What  was  your  summons? — ^A  particular 
summons  to  meet  at  a  general  court  at  the 
Admiralty. 

Did  you  understand  that  those  that  were 
absent^  were  not  sunmioned? — So  I  under- 
stood. 

I  understand  from  you,  that  after  the  fraud 
was  committed  by  the  butcher,  he  was  em- 
ployed a^n ;  tell  me,  if  I  am  wrong  ? — ^1  un- 
derstood It  so. 

And  that  there  was  no  authority  sufficient 
to  authorise  the  turning  of  that  man  out,  if 
he  would  undertake  to  (K>  it  for  less  than  ano- 
ther; do  I  understand  you  right? — I  don't 
clearly  understand  your  lordship. 

You  said,  I  apprehend,  that  there  was  no 
authority  for  the  removal  of  the  man,  though 
you  have  acknowledged  he  had  been  guilty  of 
a  fraud  ? — I  did  not  say  that. 

«  So  in  Oi%. 


SSt]         rapecHt^  Ae  Ro^l  Hospital  at  Greevianeh.         A.  D.  1778. 


ISSX 


I  understood  you,  that  he  had  served  the 
Hospital  improperly  ? — Y^s. 
.  Tnat  is  a  fraud  ? — It  b. 

But  he  offering  to  do  it  for  less  than  any 
other  person,  there  wa«  an  obligation  upon 
the  commissionecs  and  the  managers  of  the 
Hospital  to  employ  that  man  so  convicted? 
^-Yes ;  I  think  there  was. 

Follow  me,  and  I  will  give  you  time  to  anr 
swer  to  me ;  if  thb  answer  ot  your's  tends  to 
any  aigument  at  all,  here  it  lies,  that  whether 
the  Hospital  b  well  or  ill  served,  if  a  man 
offers  to  do  it  for  less  than  apother,  he  is  to 
be  employed ;  now  is  there  no  such  thing  as 
piUisnin^  in  a  gazette,  a  contract  to  supply 
the  Ho^ital,  excepting  such  a  person  ? — ^Yes ; 
there  is. 

Then  that  man  might  have  been  excepted? 
— Qy  name  he  might. 

-  And,  of  course,  could  not  have  been  em- 
l^ed? — ^You  might  have  excepted  him  by 
name ;  but  if  he  luid  put  in  the  name  of  John 
aNoaks,i>r  any  common  name,  and  that  man 
had  been  the  lowest,  you  would  have  taken 
in  that  man ;  therefore  you  could  not  have 
excluded  him  from  the  benefit  of  it,  though 
.you  would  have  excluded  him  by  name. 

Whether  or  not  a  man  of  substance,  offer- 
ing a  contract,  will  not  always  bear  down  any 
o£er  man  who  attempts  to  offer  against  him ; 
hb  name  would  have  such  weight,  that  an  in- 
ferior butcher  would  not  offer  against  that 
man ;  and  for  this  reason ;  because,  says  this 
inao,  if  you  offer  to  serve  the  Hospital  with 
beef  aft  a  penny  a  pound,  I  will  serve  them  for 
an  half-penny ;  as  long  as  that  man's  name 
continues,  you  must  be  seqsible  that  np  other 
inferior  butcher  could  offer  against  a  man  of 
aidistance.^ — ^I  don't  know  what  to  say  to 
that;  we  put  in  an  advertisement;  there 
seems  to  me  to  be  but  two  modes ;  either  to 
.  lake  the  lowest  person  that  offers,  or  to  have 
it  in  our  power  to  give  a  higher  price  to  a 
man  that  we  can  trust ;  now  if  that  power  is 
planted  to  the  directors,  m^  idea  is,  the  dl- 
lectors  would  make  a  great  job  of  it. 

Why  do  you  think  so  ? — Because  they  would 
pieier  a  friend ;  and,  perhaps,  some  of  them  be 
concerned  in  it ;  it  is  openmg  a  door  for  a  job . 

Then,  according  to  your  mode  of  reasonmg, 
if  a  man  is  ever  so  mat  &  villain,  you  must 
employ  that  man?— -Yes;  the  officers  are  to 
do  their  duty  to  prevent  it. 

I  tlunk  you  said,  Mr.  Hicks  moved  for  the 
iismisfiion  of  captain  Baillie? — ^Yes» 

Was  Mr.  Hicks  one  of  the  persons  that  ap- 
peared as  prosecutor  of  captam  Baillie,  at  the 
committee  ? — ^Yes ;  I  understood  it  so. 

Was  Mr.  Hicka  one  of  the  committee  at 
that  time?-— No;  he  was  not  of  the  com- 
mittee.* [Mr.  Cust  withdrew.] 

*  Mr.  Hidis  is  a  ietTMii  to  tlie  Hofpiul,  u  six- 
yoBj  receirer  ;  and  a  Blaster,  aa  a  director,  gover- 
nor, tod  ooamiuaioBer.  Tliia  ia  one  of  the  absurdi- 
tiei  oo«plaine4  of  in  captain  Baillie'*  book,-T-Urv. 

VOL  XXI. 


Mr.  Barker  called  in. 

Were  you  appointed  of  the  committee  to 
enquire  into  captain  Baillie's  book  ? — I  was  . 
one  of  the  directors  nohiinated,  at  the  general 
court,  to  be  o^the  committee. 

Bid  you  attend  that  committee  ? — I  did  at« 
tend  it  twice ;  the  first  time  I  attended  it  waa 
the  first  day  of  May;  and  when  I  was  last 
Wednesday,  upon  this  examination,  it  was 
sworn  at  vour  lordships'  bar,  that  I  attended 
there  one  nour  only ;  therefore  a  very  impro- 
per iud^e  to  give  an  opinion ;  the-person  tliat 
made  that  aifidavit  and  declaration,  at  your 
lordships'  bar,  was  in  my  company  from  ten 
o'clock  that  day  till  seven  at  night*,  at  Green- 
wich, upon  the  committee,  except  the  short 
dinner  we  made  to  return  a^in  to  dispatch 
the  business;  Mr,  Cowley  I  mean;  I  can 
bring  ten  gentlemen  now  here  that  were  pre- 
sent at  the  time. 

This  was  the  third  meeting  ? — The  second 
meeting  I  believe  it  was ;  the  first  of  May,  I 
was  there  the  whole  day ;  and  I  was  there 
the  19th  of  June,  when  we  finished  the  eor 
quiry. 

Then,  I  am  to  understand,  you  attended 
only  two  days  out  of  the  seven  ? — \  es ;  it  did 
not  suit  me ;  I  came  out  of  the  country  on 
puTDOse  to  attend ;  Mr.  Cust  was  gone ;  I 
maae  it  my  business  to  attend  the  second  or 
third  meeting,  from  ten  in  the  morning  to 
seven  in  the  evening;  we  retired  one  singlo 
hour  to  dinner,  and  returned  again  to  busi* 
ness. 

Was  there  any  consideration  given  to  the 
gentlemen  that  attended  that  meeting  ? — No 
other  consideration  than  spending  their  own 
money,  and  giving  up  their  own  time. 

Were  you  desired  to  attend  by  any  body  ? 
—No ;  I  thought  it  my  duty,  when  my  busi* 
ness  would  permit  me,  or  my  absence  from 
the  country. 

You  were  not  desired  to  attend  by  any 
body  ? — ^No ;  only  a  general  desire  to  attend 
as  often  as  we  could,  to  get  through  the  busi- 
ness. 

Was  that  a  desire  from  any  particular  per- 
son?— ^No;  a  general  conversation  among 
the  directors. 

And  was  there  no  promise  given,  that  the 
expences  should  be  borne  ?•— I  never  heard 
any  such  thing,  nor  nobody  ever  thought  of 
it ;  if  your  lordships  mean  to  know  the  ad- 
vantages of  bemg  a  director  of  Greenwich 
Hospital,  I  have  been  one  11  years;  some- 
times I  have  received  5/.  sometimes  3/.  for 
the  whole  year. 

Do  you  recollect  being  present  at  a  meet* 
ing  of  the  Trinity,  at  I^ptford,  on  the  15th 
ofjune  ? — ^If  it  was  a  Trinity  Monday,!  then  I 
always  attend ;  that  -is  our  annual  day ;  we 
go  then  to  choose  our  master^  deputy^  and 
wardens. 

You  don't  remember  having  said  any  thing 
there  about  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — I  cannot 
charge  my  memory,  that  Greenwich  Hospital 
was  mentioned  there. 

Y 


se^ 


li  GEOUGE  III.         Tiie  Case  ofCapiam  Thmas  BaiOie,         [SH 


You  did  not  tell  any  body  there,  that  your 
cxpences  were  to  be  borne  r — No ;  it  was  in 
ft  morning  I  was  there ;  if  it  had  been  in  the 
afternoon^  after  one  bad  Ind  two  or  three 
bottles,  one  might  have  ^d  such  a  thins ; 
but  I  never  heard  of  it,  nor  ever  thought 
of  it. 

Inform  the  House  what  you  thought  to  be 
the  proper  business  of  the  committee? — I 
presume,  to  enquire  into  the  charges  captain 
Baillie  made  in  his  book,  against 'the  civil 
officers  of  Greenwich  Hospital ;  we  thought 
that  was  the  duty  of  the  committee;  as  there  , 
'Were  charges  made  by  captain  Baillie,  in  his 
book,  to  sundiy  gentlemen  of  Greenwich 
Hospital,  the  civil  officers,  and  some  of  the 
directors,  we  thought  it  the  duty  of  the  com- 
mittee to  enquire  into  those  charges,  to  see 
whether  they  were  right  or  wrong. 

Did  you  understand  that  the  committee 
were  to  enmiire  into  the  charges,  made  by 
icaptain  Baillie,  asainst  the  directors  ? — No ; 
that  was  impossible,  to  enquire  into  a  charge 
-against  ourselves ;  we  mi^t  have  been  very 
partial  in  our  own  judgment. 

You  did  not  enquire  into  that  ? — Certainly 
not. 

Did  you  enquire  into  complaints  against 
the  lor&  of  the  Admiralty  ? — More  improper 
still,  to  enquire  into  complaints  against  our 
masters. 

Did  you  think  you  should  be  partial  in  ihat 
teBpcct  ? — ^I  hope  not  partial  in  any. . 

Did  you  think  it  your  duty  to  enquire  into 
anv  thmg  charged  against  the  first  lord  of  the 
Admiralty  ?— Certainly  not. 

Any  thing  against  ihe  commis^oners  in 
general  ? — Surely  not. 

Were  there  any  points,  in  captain  Bafllie's 
book,  that  ailected  those  persons  ? — ^If  there 
was  any  charge  that  affiected  any  single  direc- 
tor, we  should  have  enquired  into  it :  he  did 
make  some  such,  we  enquired  into  tnem^  and 
found  them  very  wrong  charges. 

But  respecting  the  c&ectors  in  general,  you 
did  not  enquire  into  ? — Generals  is  nothing ; 
when  he  made  them  against  any  particular 
persons,  captain  Baillie's  charge  was  read  to 
them,  tneir  answers  were  received,  and  to  the 
best  of  my  judgment,  we  gave  our  opinion 
after  the  committee  was  over,  and  ihe  report 
made,  which  your  lordships  may  see  in  the 
report  I  had  the  honour  to  sign. 

Did  you  permit  captain  Baillie  to  make  his 
-charged  in  a  regular  way^  and  to  support 
them  ? — ^He  had  as  much  liberty  as  any  per- 
son could  have ;  we  never  stopped  him  out 
when  the  gentlemen  differed  among  them- 
selves, and  made  use  of  language  very  dis- 
agreeable;  we  were  sometimes  obliged  to 
order  the  house  to  be  cleared,  a^id  to  desire 
them  to  be  more  steady  when  they  returned. 

Was  captain  Baillie  permitted  to  arrange 
his  complaint  in  the  manner  he  thought  pro- 
per ? — ne  had  while  I  was  there,  ana  I  oare 
say  he  had  the  whole  time. 

Did  a  Mr.  Morgan  attend  the  court  tiiere  ? 


^He  dkl  for  the  ^ntlemeai  against  ivfaom 
Mr.  Baillie  alleged  this  charee. 

Did  Mr.  Morgan  arrange  his  complain^  or 
Mr.  Baillie  himself  ?*-4  c&nH  know;  I  know 
Mr.  Morgan  talked  a  great  deal,  and  so  did 
Mr.  Cowley,  captain  BsiNie's  fHend,  and  pi«- 
vented  business  goi^g  on,  when  it'mi^ 
have  gone  on  much  better. 

Dia  Mr.  Morgan  arrange  Mr.  BaiUie't  eom- 
plaints,  or  did  Mr.  Baillie  make  them  in  the 
manner  he  thought  proper  ? — I  know  nothiDj|r 
about  their  arrangement;  I  Wver  saw  their 
minutes;  I  heard  their  questions,  and  the  le- 
plies  to  them,  and  gave  our  report  accordinglj. 

Did  you  never  hear  captain  Baillie  object  ti> 
the  manner  in  which  the  enquiry  was  carried 
on  ? — I  was  not  at  the  first  meeting ;  when  I 
came  to  the  seoond  meeting,  I  was  surprized 
to  see  gentlemen  who  were  strangers  tnere; 
I  asked  who  the  v  were,  they  said,  one  was 
counsel  for  several  officers,  and  the  other  geo- 
tleman.  Mr.  Baillie's  firiend,  which  we  sup- 
posed then  of  the  law,  was  counsel  for  him ;  I 
did  say,  liiat  if  I  had  been,  at  the  first  meet- 
ing, I  would  have  objected  to  counsel ;  wt 
wanted  so  law,  but  to  come  at  truth  only. 

Did  you  hear  captain  Bailtie  mak«  any  ob- 
jection to  the  court  not  permitting  him  to 
prove- his  book  irsm  the  beginning  to  tlie 
end? — ^No,  never;  captain  &iUie  gave  tlie 
committee  a  great  deal  of  trouble,  by  sundij 
improper  questions,  or  the  business  miglit 
have  been^one  in  half  the  time,  and  muoh 
better. 

Did  yott  permit  captain  Bcullie  to  call 
witnesses  to  prove  the  charges?— *A11 
charges  I  knew  of. 

Did  you  permit  him  to  call  them,  in  tfae 
order  he  thought  proper  ? — ^I  don't  know  ai^ 
thing  to  the  contrary  when  I  was  in  the  chair. 

Do  you  recollect  several  of  the  blind  meii 
were  refiised  to  be  called,  concerning  the  w* 
moval  of  the  posts  and  rails? — I  remember 
the  complunt  tiiat  captain  Baillie  made^  that 
the  posts  and  rails  being  removed,  that  it  waa 
a  prejudice  to  the  fwA  men,  that  one  bad 
been  nm  over  by  it ;  I  told  them  we  admitted 
it  to  be  true,  and  timefore  they  need  not  call 
witnesses  to  it. 

Did  you  feportthat  you  admitted  it  te  be 
true  ^— I  cannot  remeiriber  «ight  or  ten 
months  ago<;  If  I  mistake  in  my  memoiy,  I 
submit  to  your  lordshij^'s -goodness  to  comet 


Your  memoty  serves  you  to  teO  us,  ^at 
-upon  the  reraovd  of  the  nosts  and  ndls,  you 
refused  to  call  in  ^e  blina  ^  men,  tellii^  ca^ 
tain  Baillie  you  admitted  4t? — There  was  ^ 
reasea  given  for  it ;  the  ^me  they  were  r&* 
moved,  the  accident  happened ;  we  told  bSAk 
we  had  heard  the  accident  had  happened,  and 
we  acumeieQi  it* 

Then  does  not  yoat  memory  seive  you  to 
tell,  whether  you  stated  that  in  the  report  ?-^*~ 
I  donH .recollect;  the  report  is  on  your  lord- 
ships' table ;  there  was  an  accident  happened  ; 
we  admitted  ity  I  don't  say  we  adoittea  that  1ft 


ap^        rafeahg  tke  Boyttl  HatfittilttGreemach.        A.  D.  1778k 


L3a^ 


wrangto  lake  the  post»  wad  nils  awrajr^ 
and  jNit  others  ia  the  loom  of  them ;  I  daat 
•aj  It  was  so;  we  upon  the  epquiiy  and  the 
coaunittee  were  satisfied  with  it,  we  admitted 
the  man  had  received  the  accident. 

I>id  ^Fou  enquire  whether  it  wasa  gpeTUice 
•ubastmg? — Certunly  we  did  examine,  and 
it  was  not  then  subsisting,  but  rectified,  and 
in  a  more  safe  order  than  before.* 

But  did  you  refuse  to  hear  the  evidence  of 
a  Uind  man,  on  the  subject,  ave  or  no  ? — ^A 
blind  man  could  not  be  an  evidErace,  whether 
the  posts  were  removed^  aye  or  no ;  we  ad- 
mitted the  &ct 

Did  jou  admit  the  evidence  of  the  blind 
van,  aye  or  no  ? — It  strikes  me  now,  I  believe 
we  oidered  the  counsel  to  withdraw,  and  some 
centlemen  came  in  with  a  report  of  ci^>tain 
Bailiie's  behaviour  at  the  door,  in  order  to  set 
tbcan  aniast  the  court  and  civil  officers ;  I 
helieve  1  have  that  in  wiitii^  if  your  lord- 
ships will  permit  me  to  read  it ;  the  time  the 
committee  was  debating  upon  it  after  the 
loom  was  cleared,  the  counsel  for  the 'civil  of- 
ficers, Mr.  Mor^ui,  and  the  sentleman  that 
attended  Mr.  Baillie  as  his  inend  iq[K>n  the 
eaanunation;  their  language  was  very  extras 
oidinai^r,  their  behaviour  prevented  tM  busU 
aess  goutt  on;  they  were  desired  to  with- 
diaw,  and  the  court  to  be  cleared.  Captain 
Bullie  asked  if  he  was  to  return  again ;  we 
toU  him  directlv,  he  might  do  as  he  i>leased ; 
when  we  were  debating  this  upon  their  going 
ottL  the  following  extraordinary  speech,  which 
baa  been  just  made  in  the  room  uyoining 
wdiere  the  committee  sat^  by  captain  Bullie 
te  two  blind  pensioners  m  the  presence  of 
most  of  the  officers,  and  in  the  hearing  of  a 
aumber  of  pensioners  and  nurses,  which  se- 
veral of  the  officers  were  ready  to  attest,  and 
which  captain  Bailhe,  upon  its  being  reao,  did 
not  mateiially  dinvow ;  ^  Go  my  ladsy  you 
win  not  be  hurdy-you  mav  break  vour  necks 
and  be  damn'd ;  you.  the  utme  and  the  bUnd, 
may  do  what  you  will  for  the  committee,  for 
you  will  meet  with  no  redress  here."  I  sub- 
mit to  your  lordships,  whether  after  such  an 
affiur  as  this,  any  gentleman  would  sit  there 
%o  do  business. 

Was  this  after  the  committee  was  finished 
er  not? — ^No;  whai  the  gentlemen  were  de- 
aired  to  withdraw,  that  the  committee  might 
tidce  into  consideration,  and  &o  over  the  evi- 
dence, and  see  if  the  clerk  had  entered  it  pro- 
Then  I  beg  to  know,  whether  you  did  re- 
fose  to  admit  the  evidence  of  the  blind  men, 
concerning  the  posts  and  rails? — ^Afterthat, 
we  thought  it  proper  to  break  up  the  commit- 
tee, but  we  Ittd  before  gpne  through  ever^ 
complaint  but  thi^;  we  wled  in  eveiy  civil 


tUt  diy,  not 
oat  off 


Orig.Ed, 


oiitnordiiiarj  aVermsDt ;  for,  to 
ywdl  of  pott  ood  railing  are  pot  op 
than  twelTo  hondrad  jords  ;  jet, 
to  tki  tttto  purport 


officer;  befiwe  we  finished  the  enquiy,  we 
asked  them  separately  if  they  had  an^r  com* 
plaints  to  make,  and  your  lordships  will  see 
their  answer  in  the  report 

You  called  the  persons  accused,  to  know  if 
thev  had  any  complaints ;  did  you  call  in  Mr. 
Baulie  ? — ^He  went  away  after  this. 

The  blind  men  were  not  called? — They 
were  not. 

You  refused  to  call  them  in? — ^Afterthe 
captain  had  made  this  public  declaration,  what 
could  we  say  ? 

Did  captain  Baillie  desire  the  blind  men 
mieht  be  called  in  to  be  examined  aye  or 
no  r — He  sent  for  the  blind  men,  and  after 
the  behaviour  of  some  of  the  gentlemen| 
when  we  were  obliged  to  clear  the  room,  and 
was  going  to  take  into  con»deration  what  was 
necessary  fia  the  examination  of  those  people, 
we  admitted  the  posts  had  been  removed,  and 
an  accidenthad  happened,  and  then  when  the 
report  was  brought  m,  of  what  captain  Baillie 
had  said,  it  was  all  over. 

I  must  have  an  answer,  yea  or  no ;  did  cap- 
tain Baillie  apply  to  the  committee  to  have 
these  blind  men  called  in  ? — ^I  believe  he  sent 
for  the  blind  men  without  applying  to  th^ 
committee. 

I  ask,  did  he  apply  to  the  committee  to  send 
for  them  in  to  hear  them? — I  cannot  charge 
my  memory ;  if  he  did,  I  believe  it  will  appear 
in  the  minutes  of  the  committee. 

Was  the  evidence  of  Mr.  Charles  Lefevre 
refiisedto  be  admitted  ? — ^I  believe  Mr.  Charles 
Lefevre  had  come  before  the  committee,  that 
sat  once  or  twice  before  ;  his  name  was  men* 
tioned;  the  answer  was,  as  the  committee 
before  had  enquired  into  that  afiair,  we  did 
not  know  it  was  the  business  of  this  commit* 
tee,  to  take  into  consideration  what  had  been 
before  the  committee  before,  and  under  their 
consideration. 

Do  yqu  rec<^ect  expressing  yourself,  that  it 
was  very  impudent  for  one  maa  to  find  iauk 
with  the  conduct  of  so  many  gentlemen  as  the 
directors? — ^No,  it  never  entered  into  my 
thoughts ;  captain  Baillie  will  do  me  the  jus^ 
tice  I  hope  to  say,  that  I  took  hia  part  in  one 
thkiff  tl&t  luippeitted  there. 

what  was  that  ? — I  believe  the  rev.  Mr. 
Cooke ;  his  affiih-s  were  under  oonsideratioi^ 
and  captain  Baillie  said  very  extraordinary 
thines  against  him,  and  I  believe  the  other 
told  nim  he  did  not  speak  truth. 

Was  there  any  body  ebe? — There  was 
Mr.  Mylne,  the  clerk  df  the  works ;  he  was 
charsed  with  something  very  indiscreet,  and 
the  huagpa^  was  very  disasreeable,  and  I  be* 
lieve  he  imght  return  it  wiu  a  proper  resent* 
ment,  but  perhaps  made  use  of  a  word,  but  I 
forget  it;  these  thinss  I  wish  to  forget;  the 
other  struck  me  much,  as  coming  firom  ader*- 
gyman. 

Recollect  the  b^pmung  of  that  conversa- 
tion?-^! would  if  i  could,  they  were  often 
loud,  and  contradicted  on^  another  too  muc^ 
for  a  proper  enquiry. 


327] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaUlie,  \3SS 


I  thought  you  said  there  was  one  instance, 
m  which  you  said  you  took  captain  Baillie's 
^art ;  what  was  that  ? — ^In  the  instance  of  the 
rev.  Mr.  Cooke. 

Did  you  take  his  part  against  Mr.  Cooke  ? 
—Yes;  I  said  Mr.  Cooke  had  not  behaved 
properly. 

who  began  in  that  business  of  Mr.  Cooke; 
did  captain  Baillie? — Captain  Baillie  brought 
it  up '/  he  brought  Mr.  Cfooke  from  the  other 
end  of  the  room;  he  said  some  things  that 
Mr.  Cooke  knew  in  his  own  mind  he  thought 
were  not  tnie. 

So  captain  Baillie's  attack  upon  Mr.  Cooke, 
was  charging  him  with  some  things  ? — The 
charge  was  always  read,  the  person  charged 
replied  to  it,  and  brought  proper  evidence  to 
support  his  reply. 

Did  captain  Baillie  make  use  of  any  other 
words  to  Mr.  Cooke,  than  what  he  had  said 
In  his  book  ? — I  don't  know  that  he  did. 

Do  you  suppose  that  the  captdn's  asserting 
the  truth  of  his  charges,  was  an  insult? — I 
don't  believe  that  captain  Baillie's  charges 
were  true,  nor  one  tenth  part  of  them. 

Did  he  make  use  of  any  other  word^,  than 
asserting  the  truth  of  his  charge  ?-rI  don't 
know,  possibly  he  might. 

What  were  they  then  ? — I  don't  recollect. 

Do  you  recollect  preventing  captain  All- 
"wright  from  answering  a  question  concerning 
the  quantity  of  broth  token  by  people  who  had 
no  nght  to  it? — There  was  a  charge  about 
some  veal ;  they  iVere  also  asked,  if  there 
was  any  application  from  them  to  the  board, 
that  is  the  council;  the  civil  officers  were 
called  in,  all  their  names  are  down,  to  the 
number  of  14 ;  after  a  particular  enquiry  into 
the  complaints  of  the  Hospital,  they  were  also 
asked,  whether  their  application  to  the  board 
of  directors  had  not  been  duly  attended  to, 
and  every  grievance  redressed ;  they  all  saia 
they  knew  of  none,  except  captain  Allwright, 
who  said  he  thought  due  regard  had  not  been 
paid  to  a  complaint  made  to  coimcil  respecting 
some  bad  veal  which  had  been  issued  to  the 
infirmary ;  but  it  appeared  by  the  minutes  of 
the  directors^  that  proper  notice  had  been 
taken  of  it  by  thcmj  notwithstanding  the 
proceeding  therein  was  irregular;  as  aoctor 
Hossack,  the  physician,  dec&red  to  the  com- 
mittee he  was  not  acquainted  with  it,  not- 
withstanding it  was  inserted  in  the  minute 
book,  that  he  complained  of  it,  nor  did  he 
.  know  any  thing  of  tne  matter. 

My  question  is,  whether  you  prevented 
captain  Allwright  from  answering  a  question 
concerning  the  quantity  of  broSi  that  was 
taken  from  the  men,  by  officers  who  claimed 
it  as  a  privilege  or  perquisite? — I  don't  re- 
member ever  hcaringof such  alhing ;  if  1  did,  it 
vill  be  in  the  minutes,  which  are  very  Correct. 

Do  you  remember  whether  you  ordered 
captain  Baillie  to  withdraw  from  the  commits 
tee-room? — I  mentioned  that  before;  upon 
this  extraordinary  riot,  I  might  call  it,  be- 
tween the  lawyer  and  the  people^  I  ordered 


the  room  to  be  cleared ;  I  said  we  had  dontf 
with  law,  you  are  to  withdraw,  and  *have  no 
occasion  to  return  again ;  c^pt.  Baillie  said, 
must  I  go  too;  just  as  you  please.  Sir;  you 
may  returnagsun,  if  you  please. 

Did  you  tell  capt.  Baillie  he  might  return  if 
he  pleased? — Yes;  he  might  return  if  he 
pleased ;  after  we  examined  the  witnesses,  we 
went  into  consideration  of  the  charges  for  and 
ajgainst,  that  we  might  draw  them  out  clear ; 
then  we  ordered  the  room  to  be  cleared  be- 
cause we  thoueht  it  not  a  proper  place  to  do 
business  in,  wnen  we  come  upon  that,  with 
20  people  in  it. 

Did  capt.  Baillie  make  any  remonstrance  at 
th^t  time  against  being  ordered  to  withdraw  ? 
— ^Not  a  single  word  about  it^  that  I  know  of; 
certainly  not. 

Did  not  capt.  Baillie  say  he  had  more 
things  to  ur^  nefore  the  committee,  he  wish- 
ed to  enter  into  proof  of  ? — ^When  capt.  Baillie 
offered  any  thing  before  the  committee,  it 
was  entered  into;  there  were  some  shirts 
that  were  not  washed  clean ;  I  proceeded ; 
we  did  not  go  there*  as  washermen,  but  to  en- 
quire into  the  truth  and  regulation  of  the  cha- 
nty ;  we  did  not  look'^at  them ;  we  thought  It 
not  our  duty  to  look  at  them;  we  paid  1], 
1%  140D/.  a  year,  for  washing  of  linen ;'  they 
have  the  proper  officers  there,  to  take  care  of 
it;  we  suppose  they  do;  it  is  their  duty  and 
interest;  they  can  get  nothing  by  not  do- 


mgit. 


And  therefore,   when  the  complaint  wis 
made,  you  did  not  chuse  to  enquire  into  it  ? — 
We  could  not  judge  of  washing  a  whole  year, 
by  a  few  shirts  brought  in  upon  a  particular  * 
occasion. 

What  other  way  could  you  judge  of  it  ? — 
Not  by  half  a  dozen  shirts  brought  in. 

Could  not  you  judge  of  it  by  hearing  the 
evidence  of  the  people  ? — We  had  the  people 
that  washed  them ;  the  reason  we  did  not  go 
into  those  particular  thinp  here,  I  have  the 
honour  to  be  one  of  the  directors,  every  com- 
plaint of  washing,  meat,  brewing,  every  thing, 
when  complaint  has  been  made  to  the  direc- 
tors, the  witnesses  have  been  called;  they 
have  been  examined,  and  the  directors  have 
taken  it  into  consideration,  and  given  proper 
orders  to  the  proper  officers  to  see  it  properly 
done ;  therefore,  I  did  not  think  there,  as  a 
member  of  the  committee,  that  we  were  to 
repeat  that  there  again ;  every  charge  that  is 
made,  every  complaint,  let  it  1)e  ot  what  n&. 
ture  it  will,  the  persons  are  summoned  to 
meet  at  the  next  court  of  directors ;  they  are 
to  bring  the  proof  with  them,  and  the  people 
charged  to  attend :  that  capt  Baillie  knows  { 
he  has  been  there  hundreds  of  times. 

Then  you  are  to  examine  the  persons  that 
washed  the  linen,  and  not  those  that  wore 
them  ? — ^We  brought  the  proper  people  to  at** 
test  they  were  weil  or  ill  done. 

Did  you  send  for  the  pensioners  that  woro 
them  ?— No ;  it  was  not  our  business  to  seiMl 
tor  the  pensioners. 


^29]'        mpe^ing  ike  Royal  Hospital  at  Greenxoich.         A.  D.  1778. 


[380 


Not  upon  enquiries  that  concerned  them^ 
— There  are  civil  officers  appo'mted  for  the 
purpose. 

Was  it  not  your  business  to  enquire  into  the 
complaints  of  the  pensioners  f — ^if  they  com- 
plained, we  did. 

Did  not  cap!  Baillie  comphun? — I  don't 
call  him  a  penaoner. 

Did  he  not  complain  in  his  book  ? — Excuse 
me  about  capt.  Baillie's  book ;  people  that 
know  Greenwich  Hospital,  and  read  that 
book,  will  not  be  sunpnsed  at  an^  thing ;  I 
believe  the  linen  had  been  looked  mto. 
•  But  did  the  committee  look  into  it  ? — I  be- 
lieve they  might;  I  did  not,  as  chairman  of 
the  committee;  we  did  every  thing  that  was 
«ur  duty ;  every  thing  that  was  required  of  us. 
But  you  don't  know  that  it  was  done  ? — ^I 
dont 

'  When  you  came  to  sign  the  report,  did  you 
mean  to  sign  to  the  report  of  tne  days  you 
were  present  only,  and  the  days  you  were 
not  present  also  f — I  signed  to  the  whole  re- 
port 

Without  beinjg  present  yourself? — ^I  pre- 
sume the  committee  did,  when  I  was  absent, 
as  when  I  was  present,  they  were  very  acai- 
rate  in  their  enquiries  ;  they  were  very  mi- 
nute in  every  article ;  thc^  cleared  the  room 
four  or  five  times,  and  reacl  over  the  minutes. 
How  do  you  know  that,  when  you  were  not 
present? — ^I  know  it  was  so  when  I  was  there; 
I  know  it  could  not  be  otherwise  by  men  of 
business. 

Though  you  were  not  there  yourself,  you 
are  now  telling  us  upon  your  oath,  it  could 
not  be  otherwise ;  that  the  gentlemen  of  the 
committee,  when  you  were  not  present,  could 
not  possibly  do  otherwise  than  be  regular? — I 
ilo  upon  my  oath  declare,  that  I  believe  what 
i  signed  there  to  be  exactly  true. 
'  But  do  you  know  it  ? — I  could  not  when  I 
was  not  there. 

But  you  signed  it? — ^Yes,  I  believe  I  did, 
ftnd  I  believe  we  all  signed  it.* 

Do  you  recollect  having  been  ^ewn  pat^ 
terns  of  cloth,  to  prove  that  the  Hospital  nad 
been  served  with  articles  of  a  bad  qualitv  ? — 
If  your  lordships  will  permit  me,  I  will  go 
into  the  particulars  of  what  we  purchase  of 
the  different  people  for  the  use  ot  the  Hospi- 
tal ;  when  any  thing  is  wanting,  we  advertise 
IB  the  public  papers,  that  at  such  and  such  a 
^y,  we  will  contract  for  such  and  such  thines. 
Confine  yourself  to  what  was  done  at  the 
committee;  and  whether  you  recollect  there 
being  shewn  to  you,  at  the  committee,  any 
patterns  of  cloth? — I  don't  recollect  it. 

You  don*t  recollect  being  a  little  warm  upon 
the  occasion  ? — I  might  be  warm,  but  I  don't 
recollect  any  tlung  particular  about  it ;  but  I 
lecoUect  I  had  reason  enough  to  be  warm, 
with  the  behaviour  of  the  people  about  me. 
When  you  w^nt  down  the  last  day  ,the  seventh 

'    *  III  ptfo  516  it  appears  by  the  report  Ui^t  it  was 
Wfwd  bj  Mr.  Buker  and  Mr.  Cast  only, ^Orig,  Ed. 


day,  how  long  did  you  imagine  the  committee 
would  sit?— They  told  me  the  conunittee,  be- 
fore, that  they  certainly  should  get  through 
the  next  day ;  they  thought  they  should  have 
done  it  the  day  before ;  I  saw  by  the  minutet 
who  had  been  examined ;  I  saw  by  the  exa- 
minations who  were  gone  through,  and  ther« 
were  only  two  or  three  things  to  do  the  last 
day  of  the  committee^  and  as  I  mentioned 
before,  after  we  had  gone  through  all  the  en- 
quiries,  I  thought  it  necessary  to  call  all  the 
civil  ofiiccrs  in,  to  ask  them  a  genecal  ques- 
tion; if  they  had  any  complaints;  if  there 
was  any  ill  behaviour ;  if  there  was  any  thing 
that  had  not  been  redressed;  they  all  d^ 
clared,  which  your  lordships  will  see  in  the 
rqK)rt'(thei!'own  words  very  strongly  express- 
ed) no ;  after  that  we  asked  every  gentleman 
separately,  by  himself,  had  they  any  com- 
plaints; they  all  said  no;  the  committee 
thought  that  it  was  necessary  to  adjourn  to 
Salters?  Hall,  the  usual  place  of  our  meeting 
in  London,  to  summon  all  the  directors  to 
read  the  minutes  of  the  committee,  in  order 
to  form  a  report  to  the  lords  of  the  Admi- 
ralty. 

Had  you  no  particular  reason  for  putting  an 
end  to  the  committee  that  day? — ^No,  only 
because  we  had  gone  through  every  thing. 

Was  there  no  reason  because  of  the  pro- 
ceedings against  capt.  Baillie  in  Westminster- 
hall  ? — I  (fid  not  know  any  thing  about  it ;  I 
did  not  know  that  there  was  a  trial  in  West- 
minster-hall, till  it  was  over. 

You  said  you  asked  every  body,  whether 
they  had  any  thing  fiirther  to  say  ?--Certainly. 
y     Did  you  ask  capt.  Baillie  that?-  He  sat 
next  to  me  on  my  right  hand. 

Did  you  ask  him  that  ? — ^Not  in  particular ; 
I  asked  if  any  gentleman  had. 

And  did  not  capt.  Baillie  say  he  had  some- 
thing to  say  ?--€ertainly,  nothing  more  than 
about  the  blind  men;  and  his  ^oing  out 
making  such  a  declaration  as  he  did,  I  sup- 
posed he  meant  to  put  an  end  to  the  com- 
mittee. 

Did  not  capt.  Baillie  say  he  had  more  wit- 
nesses ^  to  call,  and  begged  to  have  them 
heard ?~No;  not  that  1  recollect;  I  would 
have  sat  four  or  five  hours,  to  have  paid  capt. 
Baillie  any  compliments. 

[Mr.  Barker  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Cowley  called  in. 

You  attended  this  committee  at  the  desire 
of  capt.  Baillie  ?— I  did. 

Had  you  any  interest  one  way  or  other  ? — 
None,  but  the  prejudices  of  friendship;  I  had 
a  great  pleasure  in  attending  a  gentleman 
whom  I  conceive  to  be  engaged  in  the  cause 
of  humanity. 

When  the  committee  closed,  did  captain 
Baillie  Acquiesce  to  its  being  closed  in  the 
manner  it  was  ? — ^The  whole  was  a  scene  of 
confusion ;  Mr.  Barker's  conduct  was  every 
thin^,  I  conceive,  to  be  arbitrary  and  tyran- 
nical through  the  whole  course  of  the  pro- 


$91] 


18  GEORGfe  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  JBaiOie,         [3S9 


ceedings;  captun  Baillie  declared  thebusi* 
ness  was  not  gone  throush,  nor  one  half 
through ;  for  we  had  relief  durixiz  the  last 
two  or  tnree  days,  much  upon  Mr.  Gust's  pro- 
mises^ which  we  did  not  doubt  he  intended  to 
perform.  When  Mr.  Barker  had  gpne 
trough  a  mode  of  business,  which  I  was  not 
able  to  understand  then,  nor  even  now,  what 
the  distinctions  were,  they  seemed  calculated 
to  puzzle,  which  they  did  me  exceedingly, 
Mr.  Barker  desired  we  would  withdraw;  we 
pleaded  the  benefit  of  Mr.  Gust's  promises; 
some  comphunts  were  madeof  my  behaviour; 
t  wished  to  pay  proper  respect  to  the  com^ 
mittee,  though  not  to  tneir  proceedings. 
Captain  Bailhc  said,  unless  they  would  allow 
somebody  to  attend  him,  he  could  not  attend 
at  aJl ;  it  appeared  to  me  the  committee 
caught  at  that  declaration  with  great  eager- 
ness; then  I  desire  you  will  withdraw  too; 
be  did  immediatelvy  and  never  received  any 
other  message  to  be  called  in  ;  several  other 
gentlemen  were  called  in,  in  his  absence^and 
we  understood  the  proceedings  were  resumed; 
the  order  for  him  to  withdraw  was  peremp- 
tory ;  we  were  told  by  Mr.  Wells,  as  be  was 
db-ivin^  off,  that  the  committee  would  meet 
again  to  enquire  into  the  matters  concerning 
the  direqtors ;  but  they  would  want  nobody 
hut  themselves. 

When  captain  Bsullie  was  ordered  to  with- 
draw, did  he  object  to  the  closing  the  com- 
mittee ? — ^Yes;  and  that  he  considered  it  as  a 
violent  arbitrary  proceeding,  to  order  him  to 
withdraw;  the  whole  was  a  very  confused 
proceeding,  and  rather  auarrel  than  argument, 
throughout  the  whole.  Gaptain  Bailhe 
found  that  his  evidence  was  generally  refused 
to  be  called  in ;  he  pressed  much  the  business 
6f  the  blind  men;  that  their  minds  were 
greatly  disturbed :  that  it  was  a  strbns  charge 
m  his  Gase ;  ana  as  he  told  Mr.  Barker,  that 
as  he  could  not  be  allowed  to  call  evidence,  it 
was  ridiculous  to  say  they  sat  there  to  enquire 
into  charges,  and  not  hear  evidence  through ; 
the  men  were  at  the  door ;  the  reasons  given 
eeemed  to  be  excuses  why  they  should  not  be 
called  in ;  that  the  committee  determined  not 
to  hear  them ;  the  expressions  that  have  been 
stated  to  this  committee  were  not  made  use  of 
^1  after  they  were  repeatedly  and  peremptorily 
refused  to  l>e  heard.  Mr.  Baillie's  mind  was 
a  good  deal  heated,  by  finding  his  evidences 
were  not  to  be  heard,  and  the  words  he  made 
use  of  were  the  complaints  of  a  man  in  a 
passion. 

Upon  what  ground  did  you  imagine  that 
Mr.  Barker  was  only  half  an  hour,  or  an  hour, 
in  the  committee  the  third  day  ? — I  have  re- 
collected a  good  deal  since;  I  heard  what 
Mr.  Barker  said  ujpon  that  subject ;  he  did 
not  make  much  impression  on  mv  mind; 
when  he  attended,  I  believe,  the  third  day,  he 
might  be  longer  there  than  an  hour ;  it  did  not 
press  much  upon  my  mind;  I  mentioned  it 
96  a  thing  that  happened  half  a  year  ago ; 
Mr.   Barker  might  attend  earlier;  but  the 


committee,  in  point  of  form,  did  not  open  till 
there  were  a  proper  number  assembled;  Mr. 
Barker  might  be  present  before.  The  mem- 
bers of  the  committee  afterwards  went  tft 
diimer ;  they  staid  a  considerable  time,  and  I 
recollect  that  Mr.  Gust  took  notice  of  it  after- 
wards ;  he  said  this  method  of  staying  dinner 
will  not  do :  we  must  not  think  ot  dining  any 
more ;  so  that  I  am  pretty  clear,  in  pomt  of 
fact,  that  a  greatdeaiof  that  time  was  short 
of  actual  business;  how  long  Mr.  Barker 
might  be  in  Greenwich  Hospital,  or  in  the 
room,  I  am  not  competent  to  say,  but  that  he 
was  a  short  time  in  the  room  upon  business, 
and  therefore  J  did  not  impress  my  mind. 

What  is  your  profession  ? — ^I  was  bred  in 
my  father's  shop  in  the  country,  a  bookseller 
and  stationer. 

What  business  do  you  follow  ? — ^I  am  ni» 
other  business  than  that;  I  don't  follow  the 
business. 

What  business  do  vou  follow? — ^I  don't 
follow  particularly  any  business. 

You  are  not  a  country  gentleman  of  a  landed 
estate,  are  you  ? — No. 

Then  vou  follow  some  business  for  your 
livelihood  ? — ^Yes. 

What  is  that? — ^I  have  the  good  fortune  to 
,have  some  benefit  from  the  stage,  from  mj 
wife's  writings. 

What  profession  do  you  follow? — ^I  was 
bred  in  my  father's  shop. 

Are  you  a  writer  yourself? — ^I  certainlj- 
do  write.  [Mr.  Gowley  withdrew.] 


Tueidojf,  Moty  4, 1779. 
The  Rev.  Mr.  Cooke  called  in. 

Whether  you  were  present  at  any  conversa- 
tion that  parsed  between  the  earl  of  Sand- 
wich, Mr.  Murphy,  and  Mr.  Butler,  in  D^:em* 
her  last  ? — ^I  was. 

Relate  what  passed  at  that  conversation  ? — 
I  was  present  with  Mr.  Murphy,  Mr.  Butler^ 
and  i^y  lord  Sandwich ;  Mr.  Murphy  came 
there  with  proposals  from  Mr.  Baillie ;  and  I 
recollect  that  Mr.  Baillie' s  proposals  ¥rere  for 
an  equivalent  to  be  made  him,  that  he  might 
quit  Greenwich  Hospital;  the  proposals^  as  I 
recollect,  were,  that  his  suspension  should  be 
taken  ofif ;  that  he  should  stay  in  the  Hospital 
a  given  tune ;  that  an  equivalent  sboukl  be 
nuule :  I  think  these  were  the  proposals  that 
were  made ;  when  my  lord  Sandwich  heard 
those  proposals,  he  gave  little  attention  to 
them;  Mr.  Baillie  said  he  would  bum  his 
papers,  and  give  up  his  books  and  those  sort 
of  things  in  the  presence  of  any  body;  ford 
Sandwich  said,  I  care  not  at  all  for  your 
books  and  papers:  Mr.  BuUie  has  done  as 
much  mischief  as  he  can ;  he  can  do  no  more  ; 
I  don't  wish  to  ruin  Mr.  Baillie  nor  his  ia- 
milv ;  I  should  wish  to  have  nothing  to  do 
with  him ;  as  to  his  family,  I  should  iMtve  no 
objection,  out  of  compassion  sake,  to  do  for 
them  J  I  have  nothing  Iq  tiie  worla  to  say  I9 


SSS\        retpeeUi^  the  Ro^  H^tpUal  at  GrtettMch.         A.  D.  177S. 


[S» 


captain  Baillie  as  to  fais  proposals  about  his 
books ;  he  has  done  as  much  misehief  as  he 
can;  it  was  mentioDed  itscoming  into  parlia- 
ment ;  his  lordship  said  he  was  roeidy  to  meet 
jt  in  parliament,  or  any  where  else ;  that  is 
pretty  much  wKat  passed ;  tficre  were  suhse- 

?ucnt  meeting  I  believe,  that  I  was  not  at; 
am  clearly  of  opinion,  that  lord  Sandwich 
never  couldf  or  would  have  listened  to  it,  if  it 
had  not  been  out  of  mere  compasaion  to  his 
&mily;  he  did  not  consider  the  manhiniself 
in  any  respect,  nor  did  he  wish  that  it  micht 
not  be  brought  forward ;  he  rather  wished  that 
it  might ;  and  as  to  any  office  or  employment 
thatne  should  a^  for,  his  lordship  said  he 
was  very  unfit  for  any ;  and  I  am  sure  he  was 
moved  to  it  by  nothing  but  mere  motives  of 
kindness  to  his  familjr. 

Have  you  done  giving  an  account  of  what 
passed? — ^Yes;  that  is,  as  I  believe,  as  much 
as  I  recollect  of  the  matter. 

Do  you  know  how  Mr.  Murphy  came  to 
that  meeting  ? — ^No ;  that  I  do  not  know. 

Do  you  recollect  nothing  else  that  passed 
at  that  conversation  ?— No ;  I  don't  recollect 
at  present ;  there  might  be  something  more 
pass,  but  I  don't  recollect  any  thing  more  at 
present ;  that  is  the  substance  of  it,  as  much 
as  I  recollect,  nor  have  I  thought  much  upon 
it  since. 

Do  you  recollect  nothing  passing  relative  to 
m  Mr.  Devisme? — Yes;  that  was  what  I 
meant  with  respect  to  his  fiimily,  or  any 
part  of  his  family,  out  of  compassion,  that  he 
mio;ht  wish  to  serve,  in  case  captain  Baillie 
qmtted  the  Hospital^  resigned^  gave  it  up,  or 
went  away. 

Relate  to  the  committee  the  particular 
conversation,  as  near  as  vou  can  recollect, 
the  words  that  passed,  wiUiout  making  your 
comment  upon  them  ? — I  cannot  do  that ;  I 
<an  give  you  the  substance  of  it;  which  I 
have  done ;  lord  Sandwich  was  very  ready  to 
meet  the  enquiry;  he  had  done  every  thine 
he  coudd  do ;  luul  nothing  to  give  up ;  he  had 
got  it  into  parliament,  and  he  could  not  get  it 
out  of  paruament. 

Did  lord  Sandwich  say  he  had  seen  captain 
Kirke? — ^I  think  lord  ^sindwich  did  say  he 
had  seen  captain  Kirke. 

What  did  he  say  he  had  said  to  captain 
Kirke  ? — I  do  not  remember. 

What  did  lord  Sandwich  say  cs4)tain  Kirke 
had  said  to  him?— I  did  not  hear  lord  Sand^ 
wich  sav ;  it  was  a  message  I  was  much  in- 
disposed to  listen  to.  for  I  did  not  like  it  at 
all. 

I  am  asldng  you  what  lord  Sandwich  said, 
not  what  you  were  inclined  to  ? — I  wsh  to 
keep  nothwg  from  the  House  that  I  know. 

Do  you  say  that  you  did  not  hear  lord 
Sandwich  say,  that  he  had  spoke  to  captain 
Kirke;  and  that  captain  Kirke  haa  no 
thoughts  of  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — I  do  not 
recoflect  that. 

You  did  recollect  that  lord  Sandmch  had 
i^ke  to  captain  Kirke?— He  said  he  had 


seen  captain  Kirke,  and  had  rooke  to  htm ; 
but  I  do  not  recollect  what  lord  Sandwich 
said  had  passed  between  them. 

It  is  extraordinary  that  you  should  recol- 
lect that  lord  Sandwich  had  said  he  spoke  to 
captain  Kirke,  and  yet  you  should  not  recol* 
lect  what  he  said  had  passed  between  them  f 
— ^I  do  not  recollect  that. 

Do  you  recollect,  whether  lord  Sandwidi 
said  tAe  directors  of  Greenwich  Hospital  had 
said,  they  would  not  act  with  captain  BaillicT 
— ^I  did  not  hear  lord  Sandwicn  say  that;  I 
can  answer  for  one,  as  a  director,  that  I  would 
not;  I  did  not  hear  lord  Sandwich  say  that; 
he  might  say  it ;  but  I  did  not  hear  him. 

Did""^you  hear  lord  Sandwich  say,  he  must 

<luarrel  with   them,  or  captain  Baillie? I 

did  not  hear  lord  Sandwich  say  the  least  lik* 
that. 

Did  you  hear  lord  Sandwich  s?w,  that  thert 
was  in  captsun  Baillie  a  great  deal  of  ri^t  and 
a  great  deal  of  virrongP-No;  I  have  heard 
lord  Sandwich  say  there  was  a  great  deal  of 
wrong  in  him. 

But  you  never  heard  him  say  there  was  a 
great  deal  of  right  ?— No ;  I  never  have. 

What  did  lord  Sandwich  say  he  would  do, 
out  of  compassion  to  captain  Baillie  and  his 
family  ?— That  he  did  not  wish  to  ruin  captain 
Baillie;  to  send  him  into  the  world  a  beggar, 
and  in  want ;  I  believe  lord  Sandwich's  com- 
passion and  goodness  would  have  gone  so  &r 
as  to  do  something  for  his  family. 

I  am  not  asking  what  vou  ijiink  lord 
Sandwich  would  do  Tor  hislamily;  but  what 
did  lord  Sandwich  say  he  would  dfo  for  his  fa- 
mily?— ^I  believe  lord  Sandwich  would  do 
something  for  his  family. 

Did  lord  Sandwich,  by  any  words,  express  a 
disposition  to  do  any  thing  for  captain  Baillie  ? 
— Not  for  captain  Baijhe;  but  for  lus  far% 
mUy. 

What  to  do  for  his  family  ?— That  he  wi^- 
ed  to  serve  Mr.  Devisme.  *  • 

How  ? — It  was  his  proposition,  as  coining 
from  captain  Baillie  himself,  through  Mr. 
Murphy ;  I  have  always  understood  it  ca^e 
from  him,  that  he  wished  Mr.  Devisme  might 
be  made  a  commissioner  of  victualling.  In  the 
room  of  captain  Kirke. 

What  did  lord  Sandwich  say  to  that  sub« 
ject  ?— I  don't  recollect  what  he  sadd  to  that 
subject. 

Do  vou  recollect  whether  lord  Sandwich 
said,  that  if  captain  Baillie  would  resign, 
that  he  would  make  his  half  pay  600/.  a  year? 
I  never  heard  him  say  any  such  thing.  Cap« 
tain  Baillie  said,  he  thought  his  pla^ e  worth 
600/.  a  year. 

Captain  Baillie  was  not  there. — I  am. 
speaking  of  the  proposal  th^t  came  from  cap« 
tain  B^tie ;  for  I  look  upon  ^ose  proposals 
to  come  from  him,  through  his  counsel  and 
through  his-agent. 

Give  ■  an  account  of  what  the  ag^nt  saU 
then.r-Tbe  agent  said  captun  Bailue  looked 
upon  his  place  to  be  worth  600/.  a  year;  bu^ 


JI3]  in  GEORG£  nL         Tie  Case  of  Captain  Thmas  BaillUf         [339 


itiitttt  i«'  j:**'*^  -™*  **'*'^  *  ""^ 

^j^ '  JwH  «iiiii  FBas^  I«  ionl  Saodwicb 
^^ ^  UuBRt^tm  Mr.  Mivpiij's  saying,  be 
iSttautiL  ai  |tfi«  ««rth  600/.  a  year? 
Viae  di£  iirc  ^am^mkh  ay  to  that? — I  do 


"i. 


Xu  «ac  tttt  lycn  you  to  say,  that  lord 
^0io«3dt  'M.  mA,  m  tint  conversation,  say  he 
^muit  BBiAK  o^  hts  place  600/.  a  year,  if  cap- 
ttta  e«ialiir  viMki  xv^ign  his  employment? — I 
toti  nat  aa^esstud  lord  Sandwich  to  say  any 

iKuI  VIM  tiike  upon  yourself  to  say  he  did 
ttiit :»/ ao? — ^1  will  not  take  upon  myself  to 

^  ^*;  I  did  zK>t  understand  him  to  say  so. 

VVui  vou  undertake  to  sav  he  did  not  say 
ao  ^ — I  io  not  recollect  it;  but  I  will  under- 
tikx  to  say  I  did  not  understand  lord  Sand- 
wkii  lo  say,  that  he  would  give  equal  to  600/. 
a  year. 

Did  you  hear  lord  Sandwich  say,  he 
tbov^t  that  the  valuation  of  Mr.  Murphy  a 
£ur  valuation  of  captain  Baillie's  place  ? — ^No; 
I  did  not  hear  him  say  that. 

You  did  not  hear  lord  Sandwich  say,  he 
thought  Mr.  Murphy,  in  stating  captain  Bail- 
lie's  place  worth  600/.  a  year,  stated  it  a  fair 
valuation  ? — I  did  not ;  lord  Sandwich  knows 
the  value  of  the  place.    ^ 

I  am  not  asking  you  what  lord  Sandwich 
knows ;  but  what  you  heard  in  that  conver- 
^  sation.  Whetheiyou  did  not  say,  at  that  con- 
versation, that  it  must  be  expected  that  the 
report  of  the  committee  should  be  printed 
without  any  replv  ? — I  did  say  that;  I  thought 
that  the  report  should  be  printed,  in  case  any 
thing  was  settled  with  respect  to  that  negocia^ 
tion ;  that  on  the  part  of  the  directors,  on  the 
part  of  the  individuals,  and  the  officers  of  the 
jhouse,  that  it  should  be  printed,  as  a  justifica- 
tion of  their  characters. 

And  did  you  not  say,  that  it  must  be  printed 
without  a  reply  from  captain  B^lhe? — ^I  said 
no  such  thing  as  without  any  reply. 

Then,  of  course,  as  you  did  not  say  that, 
you  do  not  recollect,  whether  Mr.  Murphy,  in 
'  answer  to  that^  said,  that  the  report  was  al- 
ready printed,  in  two  columns ;  that  therefore 
it  might  be  depended  upon  thiait  captain  Bail- 
lie  would  print  a  third  column? — ^I  remember 
no  such  thmg. 

Do  you  recollect,  whether  lord  Sandwich 
•aid  that  if  captain  Baillie  did  not  resign 
his  office,  he  should  look  upon  it  as  a  flag  of 
defiance  ^ — I  never  heard  lord  Sandwich  say 
any  such  words. 

That  he  would  turn  him  out,  and  he  must 
take  the  consequence? — ^I  never  heard  him 
fay  such  wdhis.   [Rev.  Mr.  Cooke  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Bcrteh  called  in. 

, '  What  profession  art  you  of  ?-'A  p«at«r  and 
a  picture-cleantr. 

t 


Have  you  much  business  in  the  way  of 
cleaning  pictures  ? — ^I  do  a  peaX  deal. 

Do  you  know  the  paintmgs  of  Greenwich 
Hospital  ? — ^I  do. 

It  they  had  been  advertised  to  have  been 
cleaned,  for  what  sum  would  you  have  done 
it  ?-^For  about  400/. 

If  you  had  been,  required  to  give  security 
for  doing  it  in  a  proper  manner,  so  as  not  to 
have  hurt,  or  damaged  the  pictures,  would 
you  have  undertaken  to  give  security  for  so 
doing?— I  would.         [Mr.  Bertels  withdrew.} 

John  Glass  called  in. 

What  is  your  station  in  Greenwich  Hospi- 
tal ? — I  am  in  none  at  present;  I  am  turned 
out  of  the  house  for  life. 

What  ¥^ere  you  in  Greenwich  Hospital? — A 
boatswain  of  the  Painted-hall. 

What  were  3'ou  turned  out  for? — The 
greatest  reason  that  I  think  is,  I  had  two  sum- 
monses from  your  lordships;  the  first  was 
from  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke,  as  I  was  told,  thera* 
fore  I  was  certain  that  I  could  say  nothing 
with  regard  to  that  side,  but  captain  Baillle's.; 
as  I  had  given  my  affidavit  of  the  expcnce  of 
cleaning  the  Painted-hall,  concenung  the 
workmen's  wages,  I  had  given  an  account  of 
that,  and  attended  this  House.  Mr.  Picton, 
the  boatswain  of  the  infirmary,  brought  mc  a 
summons  firom  the  House  of  Lords;  he  said 
it  came  from  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke;  I  was 
amazed  I  should  have  a  summons  from  him'; 
that  was  on  the  24th.  On  t^ie  25th  I  had 
another ;  that  was  brought  by  the  messenger 
belonging  to  Greenwich  Hospital;  when  I 
came  from  dinner,  I  had  the  summons  given 
me  by  one  of.  my  partners ;  he  said,  it  came 
from  Mr.  Herbert,  the  messenger  of  the  hou^ 
at  Greenwich ;  that  summons  coming,  as  X 
imagined,  from  captain  Baillie,  I  thouglit  I  was 
to  attend  to  strictly ;  and,  because  I  attended 
to  that,  it  was  one  of  the  reasons  why  I  was 
turned  out  of  the  Hospital  for  life ;  upon  the 
account  that  I  did  not  attend  to  the  rev.  Mr. 
Cooke's  summons. 

Are  you  turned  out? — ^I  am. 

What  was  the  complaint,  that  was  entered 
into  the  complaint  book,  against  .\ou  ? — ^After 
not  attending  to  Mr.  Cooke's  summons,  IVIr. 
Mylne,  the  clerk  of  the  works,  happened  to 
come  in,  upon  the  6th  of  March ;  the  Painted- 
hall  had  been  cleaned  for  the  Sunday's  ser- 
vice; it  is  made  into  a  temporary  chapel 
since  the  fire ;  a  strange  dos  came  m,  I  did 
not  know  it  was  Mr.  M^lne  s  dog,  he  came 
in  ailer  Mr.  Mylne,  I  did  not  suppose  it  was 
Mr.  Mylne's  dog,  or  I  would  not  nave  turned 
him  oui ;  it  was  my  order  to  keep  dogs  out, 
because  it  had  been  cleaned  for  tlie  Sunday 
service.  Mr.  Mylne  was  swearing,  in  a  vior 
lent  manner,  at  the  workmen,  that  were  doinc 
the  curtain  to  stop  the  sound  of  the  echo ;  X 
went  in,  at  the  same  time,  and  I  took  my 
great  coat,  and  went  to  hunch  the  dog  out; 
upon  that,  Mr.  Mylne  left  off  his  conversatioa 
with  the  workmen^  aad  said  to  me,  thati* 


337]         respeetusg  the  Royal  ilo$pHal  at  Gretnmch.         k.  D.  1778< 


[SSS 


IDT  dog,  I  will  have  my  dog  taken  care  of  as 
well  as  myself ;  he  doubled  his  fist  at  me, 
and  advanced  two  steps  towards  me,  and  call- 
ed me  a  son  of  a  bitch,  and,  more  than  that, 
said  I  was  a  damned  impertinent  scoundrel ;  I 
said  it  was  more  than  any  gentleman  in  ^e 
Hospital  would  say ;  Mr.  Myme  was  not  satis- 
fied with  that,  but  went  out  and  returned 
again  in  a  few  minutes ;  I  was  standing  with 
my  back  to  the  northwa^ ;  he  came  up,  with 
a  frown  u|>on  his  brow,  and  an^er  in  his  coun- 
tenance ;  he  said  to  me,  what  is  your  name  ? 
I  said,  John  Glass ;  he  said,  I  know  it  well, 
and  doubled  hb  fist  at  me  again.  A  little 
after  that,  on  the  10th  of  the  month,  I  hap- 
pened to  be  upon  my  dutjr  at  the  Painted- 
hall,  Mr.  Fortye,  the  last  lieutenant  appoint- 
ed, came  in  with  a  youn^  lady  to  play  the 
oigan,  an<^  some  more  gentlefolks  with  them ; 
the  sound  of  my  voice,  when  I  was  giving  the 
explanation  of  the  paintings  to  the  company, 
drowned  the  oi^an ;  if  I  hm  known  they  were 
upon  a  party  of  pleasure  for  music,  I  would 
not  have  begun  upon  that  dut;^ ;  Mr.  Fortye 
said,  leave  oIT;  I  left  off  immediately;  I  obey- 
ed him  as  being  a  lieutenant  There  i.s  a  rule, 
when  a  stranger  comes,  to  shut  the  upper-hall 
door ;  for  if  &at  door  is  open,  a  stranger  will 
go  up  to  see  the  paintiuss  there ;  I  pulled  to 
the  Qoor  and  shut  it,  as  I  had  done  before ;  in 
so  doing,  the  rev.  Mr.  Maule,  who  was  in  the 
.ball  at  the  same  time,  said  to  me,  what  is 
that  for?  I  said,  it  was  mv  orders.  That 
your  orders  ?  I  said  yes ;  and  I  have  received 
it  from  different  gentlemen  in  tiiis  House,  and 
therefore  I  do  no  more  than  I  have  done  be- 
fore. I  locked  the  door,  as  I  often  have  done ; 
but  one  fault  I  did,  in  taking  the  key  out  and 
putting  it  in  my  pocket ;  I  acknowledge  that 
as  a  fault  The  rev.  Mr.  Maule  said  to  me, 
open  the  door;  I  own  I  disobeyed  him  the 
urst  time;  but  the  second  time  I  took  the 
key  out  of  my  pocket,  and  opened  the  door; 
then  I  obeyed  the  rev.  Mr.  Maule.  Tlie  next 
day  following,  I  came  up  to  attend  your  lord- 
ships, according  to  my  summons;  captain 
Alaplesden  came  into  the  Painted-hall ;  my 
poor  wife  came  to  take  ifty  two  quarts  of  beer, 
and  she  heard  the  noise.  Where  is  John 
Glass  ?  They  told  him,  I  was  attending  at 
the  liouse  of  Lords,  according  to  my  sum- 
mons ;  he  said,  I  was  to  do  no  more  business 
there  as  boatswain.  When  I  came  home,  my 
wife  gave  me  that  joy.  Poor  woman,  she 
kept  up  her  spirits.  Biit  if  he  is  broke,  says 
she,  it  IS  for  no  harm.  When  she  told  me  of 
it,  I  said  I  could  not  help  it ;  perhaps  some- 
thins  else  w<)uld  come  by  and  by.  I  went  to 
Mr.  Xane^  the  porter  that  hires  us  to  shew 
the  paintings^  and  pays  our  wages ;  I  said,  I 
understood  I  had  been  broke,  since  I  had 
been  tip  at  the  House  of  Lords ;  he  said,  I  am 
aorry  for  it,  for  you  are  partlv  my  main  beam ; 
I  entrusted  you,  and  found  you  honest.  I 
came  up  again,  on  Friday,  to  attend  the 
House  of  Lords ;  I  was  sworn  that  day  at  the 
\ax,  I  went  on  Satuniay  to  captain  Maples- 
VOL.  XXI. 


den,  our  new  lieutenant-governor's  house. 
WHat  do  you  want  ?  I  am  John  Glass ;  I 
came  to  know  whether  you  have  broke  me  as 
being  boatswain ;  he  said  he  had;  and  it  is 
my  positive  orders  that  vou  shall  do  no  duty 
there.  I  said,  sir  Charles  Hardy  made  me, 
and  I  have  been  told  it  depends  on  him  to 
break  me.  The  next  day,  when  the  people 
came  up  here,  to  see  your  lordships  going  to 
the  House,  myself  and  my  brother  pensioners 
said  it  was  a  great  sight;  I  came  up,  and 
thought  it  was  a  noble  one;  some  of  the 
nurses  clapped  their  hands  together,  and  said, 
God  Aln}ighty  bless  your  lordships!  God 
bless  captain  Baillie!  Captain  Baillie  for 
ever !  Truth  and  justice,  and  no  alteration 
of  the  charter !  These  were  the  words  they 
said.  When  I  saw  his  royal  highness  the 
duke  of  Cumberland,  I  pulled  off  my  hat,  and 
gave  thrcK?  cheers,  as  I  knew  the  livery ;  that 
was  another  great  offence.  On  the  Saturday 
following,  I  was  sent  for  to  captain  Maples- 
den's  apartments,  where  I  found  captaii^ 
Chads,  captain  Xynn,  and  lieutenant  Besson. 
I  was  acaised  then  5  there  was  a  person  to 
write  against  us  as  rioters,  and  we  were  ac- 
cused of  that  which  I  will  do  again ;  when  I 
see  any  of  the  princes  of  the  blood,  I  will  give 
them  three  cheSrs,  or  any  lord.  Lieutenant 
Besson  said,  he  did  not  see  that  I  was  to 
blame,  for  that  I  was  no  duty  boatswain,  nor 
mate ;  I  said,  I  was  summoned  to  be  there^ 
that  there  was  no  mob,  but  only  a  collection 
of  poor  old  geese,  as  we  are  stiled  at  Green- 
wich, come  to  see  your  lordships  come  to  the 
House,  and  we  were  very  well  pleased.  Cap- 
tain Maplesden  said,  wny  did  I  not  disperse 
the  mob  r  Was  it  supposed  that  I  could  dis- 
perse the  mob,  when  six  boatswains  could  not 
do  it ;  they  went  into  their  ranks  again,  and 
stood  just  as  if  they  were  to  face  the  French. 
I  was  reckoned  a  bad  man,  and  a  riotous  per- 
son ;  that  was  another  great  part  of  my  of^ 
fence.  At  present,  I  have  neither  victuals, 
nor  drink,'nor  money ;  I  have  the  air  to  look 
at,  and  a  wife  to  support. 

How  long  have  you  been  at  sea  ? — ^Nine- 
teen years ;  and  1  should  have  been  at 
sea  nmeteen  years  more  if  I  had  not  lost 
the  use  of  my  right  hand  (holding  up  his 
hand).  I  have  been  up  the  Streights  with 
the  auke  of  York ;  I  have  been  five  years  in 
the  Hospital,  and  was  never  complained  of 
before. 

Did  you  keep  an  account  of  the  cleaning 
and  repairing  01  the  paintings  ? — I  did. 

What  did  it  amount  to? — About  170^  with 
regard  to  the  workmen's  wages. 

How  do  you  know  what  their  wages  were  ? 
— The  people  employed,  told  me,  and  Mr. 
Davis's  sons  have  told  me  themselves. 

Did  you  keep  an  account  of  that  time  ? — I 
did. 

And  fifom  the  accounts  of  their  time,  and 
the  wages  that  Mr.  Davis's  people  told  you 
they  worked  at,  how  much  do  you  say  it 
amounted  to  ?— One  hundred  and  seventy  odd 

Z 


S39] 


18  GEORGB  in.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaittU^         [340 


pounds,  letting  alone  materials,  only  bare 
wages  to  different  workmen. 

Were  you  desired  to  keep  such  an  account  ? 
— No,  not  at  all;  I  kept  it  for  my  own  satis- 
faction, as  I  heard  1,000/.  was  to  be  paid  for 
it;  the  workmen, and  several  gentlemen  that 
came  in,  said  it  was  a  vexy  fine  job. 

What  did  they  mean,  by  saying  it  was  a 
fine  job? — For  Mr.  Davis  to  clear  so  much 
money  a&they  supposed  he  did;  they  looked 
upon  It,  it  mieht  be  done  for  about  400i.  a 
geut!eman  said  he  was  a  judge  of  painting. 

What  was  it  supposed  Mr.  Davis  was  to 
receive? — ^A  thousand  pounds. 

Aim),  by  your  account  of  the  workmen,  how 
much  did' vou  say  it  cost  ? — One  hundred  and 
seventy  oJd  pounds. 

Did  any  body  find  fault  with  you,  for  taking 
diis  account? — ^Nobody  at  all. 

And  are  you  now  quite  turned  out  of  Green- 
wich Hospital? — Yes;  I  am  entirely. 

Was  it  by  the  council  ? — Yes,  I  was  pre- 
sent; I  was  dismissed  ten  days  oefore  I  was 
tried  with  regard  to  the  dog,  and  opening  the 
door  with  an  air  of  impertinence,  as  it  was 
called,  and  leaving  ofi"  the  explanation  when 
I  was  desired. 

And  the  other  time  ^'as  for  attending  this 
House  ? — ^Yes ;  I  went  to  the  coimcil  to  answer 
charges  alleged  against  me ;  I  stood  an  hour 
and  naif;  lieutenant  Fortye  gave  his  evidence 
against  me,  that  I  had  behaved  in  an  insolent 
manner;  and  he  owned,  at  the  same  time, 
that  I  lefi  off  when  he  desired  me ;  therefore, 
I  think,  I  obeyed  him.  The  rev.  Mr.  Maule 
was  the  next  evidence  against  me ;  he  said^  I 
would  not  open  the  door  the  first  time  he  de- 
sired me ;  wnich  I  own  was  a  fiuilt.  I  was 
ordered  then  to  speak  in  my  own  defence; 
but  I  am  before  my  story ;  captain  Maplesden 
said.  What  did  he  say?  What  was  his  iniper- 
tinence  ?  What  was  his  bad  behaviour  ?  lieu- 
tenant Fortye  said,  I  said  nothing,  but  mut- 
tered. I  leave  that  to  your  lordships  whether 
that  is  saying  any  thing.  I  was  ordered,  by 
the  council,  to  beg  pudon,  which  I  would 
have  done  willingly :  I  was  to  be  broke  from 
my  place,  as  being  ooatswain  of  the  Painted 
Half;  but  that  was  not  thought  sufficient; 
that  would  not  do;  but  I  must  stand  three 
meat  days  in  tlie  pillory,  before  the  body  of 
the  pensioners. 

Is  it  usual  in  Greenwich  Hospital,  to  put 
eople  in  the  pillory  for  the  first  offence  r — 
'he  first  ofience  is  always  forgiven  by  the 
council. 

Was  this  your  first  offence  ?— Yes,  it  was, 
and  yet  I  was  ordered  to  be  in  the  pillory 
three  meat  days,  besides  begging  pardon,  and 
being  broke  fronx  being  a  boatswain. 

Did  you  refuse  that?— The  pillory  I  did; 
the  rest  I  agreed  to ;  1  would  not  stand  in  the 
pillory,  as  I  was  ordered  to  give  evidence  the 
next  day  at  your  lordships'  bar  ;  because  I 
thought  the  pillory  a  thing  for  a  rogue;  that 
was  my  great  objection  against  it 
c  Who  were  at  the  council  ?— Captain  Mar 


^ 


plesden,  captain  Lynn,  captain  Chads,  lieute- 
nant Fortye,  lieutenant  Kerr,  the  reverend 
Mr.  Cooke,  the  reverend  Mr.  Maule,  and  I 
believe  Mr.  Godby  came  in  now  and  then,  to 

give  his  approbation.  I  would  not  do  that ; 
len  said  captain  Maplesden,  you  must  take 
the  consequence ;  then  said  I,  so  I  will;  he 
said  t^e  consequence  is,  you*  will  be  turned 
out  of  the  House ;  I  said,  I  am  sorry  for  it. 
I  was  ordered  to  come  to  the  council  next 
week ;  lieutenant  Moyle  came  out,  and  said, 
I  am  lieutenant  of  the  week;  he  sdd,  will 
you  agree  to  what  the  council  have  ordered  ? 
W  ill  you  beg  pardon  in  that  manner  ?  I  said 
I  would  do  every  thing  but  stand  in  the  pil- 
loty;  lieutenant  Moyle  sent  for  the  regii^ 
latmg  boatswain,  who  came  presently  afier, 
with  a  couple  of  centinels  with .  halberts,  and 
the  mate  of  the  ^uard ;  I  said  to  one  White^ 
What  is  this  for?  Have  I  been  guilty  of  any 
thefl  or  misdemeanor,  that  I  am  to  be  ranked 
out  between  himdreds  of  men  ?  Two  or  three 
men  that  had  been  so  guilty,  had  not  been 
ranked  out  in  that  manner,  but  went  out  vo» 
luntaiy.  Captain  Maplesden  came  out  and 
said^  it  is  our  pleasure  you  should  be  ranked 
out  m  that  manner,  for  not  doing  as  we  de- 
sired you;  captain  Lynn  came  out,  and  said 
very  kindly  to  me,  *  Were  it  in  my  power  I 
would  hang  you.' 

You  Deed  not  go  on  with  that  part  of  the 
story;  you  were  entirely  turned  out  of  the 
Hospital? — ^Yes;  ever  since  the  20th  of  lust 
month. 

Is  at  usual  for  boatswains  ever  standing  in 
the  pillory  ? — I  never  knew  an  instance  of  a 
boatswain's  standing  in  the  pillory  ^ce  I 
have  been  in  the  house. 

How  came  you  to  go  to  take  the  advica 
of  counsel,  that  the  governor,  admiral  Hardy, 
was  the  only  person  that  could  turn  you  out 
of  your  place? — ^If  those  gentlemen  that  sat 
at  the  council  took  that  power  out  of  sir 
Charles's  hand,  I  cannot  answer  for  that. 

How  came  you  to  ask  counsel's  advice  ?-— 
By  order  of  the  lieutenant  of  the  week. 

When  was  that  ?— The  i22nd  of  last  month. 

And  vou  mentioned,  upon  a  former  occa- 
sion, that  you  applied  to  counsel,  to  know 
whether  any  body  hut  admiral  Hardy  could' 
turn  you  out? — Before  I  was  on  the  Painted 
Hall  duty,  I  was  a  white  frock  man;  and 
some  of  the  pensioners  would  sometimes 
come,  when  the  beer  was  bad.  and  would  find 
fault  with  us ;  we  used  to  tell  them  we  could 
not  redress  it,  but  they  must  go  to  the  officers 
belonging  to  the  House ;  I  was  at  the  council 
with  re^rd  to  that,  and  eave  my  evidence 
at  the  council  with  regard  to  the  beer;  the 
beer  was  very  bad. 

You  meant  the  council  of  the  Hospital  * 
did  you  ? — Yes.  [John  Glass  withdrew.] 

Charles  Butler,  esq.  called  in. 

Whether  you  were  present  at  any  conver«> 
sation  between  lord  Sandwich  and  Mr.  Mur«> 
phy,  upon  the  subject  of  captain  BaiUie  ? — ^I 


r 


Sil]         rttpeetuig  the  Roj/al  Hotpital  oi  Grteimdu        A.  D.  1778. 


tS4« 


i 

I 


bcj^  leave  to  submit  to  your  lordships,  that  it 
n  impossible  for  me  to  answer  that  question. 
I  know  nothing  at  all  on  this  subject,  but 
what  I  know  as  counsel  for  lord  Sandwich ; 
and  therefore,  I  conceive  it  would  be  improper 
lor  me  to  answer  that  question ;  at  the  same 
time,  I  beg  leave  to  observe,  that  it  does  not 
proceed  from  the  least  want  of  respect  to  this 
House,  but  from  what  I  have  been  told  is  a 
professional  duty. 

^  Earl  of  Santkoieh,  I  am  exceedingly  de- 
aiious  that  Mr.  Butler  should  answer;  and  if 
it  is  out  of  any  delicacy  to  me,  that  he  re- 
iieesto  answer,  I  totally  absolve  him  from 
any  such  obligation ;  and  it  is  my  desire  he 
wiu  suffer  himself  to  be  examined ;  I  absolve 
him  from  any  engagement  of  secrecy  he  may 
have  to  me. — A.  I  am  very  sorry  to  be  so  ex- 
ceeding troublesome  to  your  lordships ;  but, 
as  in  the  course  of  this  business  of  which  I 
am  now  called  upon  to  give  an  account,  the 
greatest  part  of  what  I  know,  I  also  know 
nom  a  communication  with  the  counsel  of 
captain  Baillie ;  I  conceive  I  am  not  at  liberty 
to  speak,  unless  I  have  also  the  consent  of 
captain  Baillie. 

I  beg  to  know  whether  you  are  of  the  pro- 
fesaon  of  the  law  ? — I  am. 

Have  you  taken  the  oaths  ? — That^  I  should 
apprehend,  is  a  question  which  this  House 
wul  have  the  humanity  not  to  ask  of  me,  be- 
cause it  leads  to  an  explanation  rather  incon- 
venient  to  myself. 

Captain  BaiUie  called  in. 

Have  you  any  objections  to  Mr.  Butler  de- 
danng  any  thmg  he  knows  concerning  the 
tnmsaction  between  lord  Sandwich  and  you  ? 
—I  have  no  secrets  in  this  business. 

Are  you  desirous  that  both  Mr., Butler  and 
Wr.  Murphy  should  be  examined? — I  wish 
eiDeedingty  they  may  be  both  examined. 

Mr.  Butler  sworn  at  the  bar. 

Mr.  Butler.  I  hope  your  lordships  will  ex- 
cuse me  in  mentioning,  that  as  1  have  now 
the  express  consent  to  be  examined  of  lord 
Sandwich  and  captain  Baillie,  whether  I  am 
to  be  called  counsel  or  attorney,  I  wish  to 
wave,  because  it  is  waved  by  the  parties. 

Were  you  present  at  any  conversation  be- 
tween lord  Sandwich  and  Mr.  Murphy  on  the 
subject  of  captain  Baillie } — I  was  present  at  a 
conversation  between  lord  Sandwich  and  Mr. 
Murphy  on  the  occasion ;  but  I  believe  it  will  be 
diffiailt  to  explain  that  conversation,  unless  I 
aslo  explain  the  steps  preceding  it ;  and  if  your 
lordships  will  nve  me  leave,  I  shall  be  glad  to 
mention  all  I  know  upon  the  subject.  About 
the  beginning  of  the  mouth  of  last  December, 
being  at  Serle's  coffee-house,  in  lincoln's-inn, 
(a  coffee-house  much  frequented  by  lawyers) 
Mr.  Murphy  came  in ;  we  discoursed  together 
€D  Various  subjects ;  and,  at  length,  upon  the 
'subject  of  Greenwich  Hospital;  but  which 
first  mentioned  that  subject,  I  am  at  present 
at  a  loss  to  recoQect ;  I  beheve  your  lordship 
recollect  a  topic  of  conversation  that  was^ 


about  that  time,  very  frequent  even  amon  j 
your  lordships,  the  very  great  display  of  abi- 
lities that  a  voung  gentleman  of  the  profes- 
sion of  the  law  had  made  on  the  argument  * 
concerning  Greenwich  Hospital,  in  the  court 
of  King's-bench ;  as  far  as  my  recollection 
now  serves  me,  it  began  by  a  conversation  re- 
lative to  tha^  gentleman ;    I  had  not  been 
present  at  the  argument,  and  therefore  it  is 
probable  I  might  ask  Mr.  Murphy,  whether 
that  gentleman  was  entitled  to  the  great  re-  ^ 
putation  he  had  acquired ;   it  is  exceedingly  ' 
probable  the  conversation  might  begin  upon 
that  subject,  though  I  do  not    recollect  it 
exactly,  and  that  it  migjht  go  on  to  the  case 
of  Greenwich  Hospital ;  in  the  course  of  that 
business,  Mr.  Murphy  said  he  was  exceeding- 
ly surprised  that  lord  Sandwich  did  not  ac 
cept  captain  Baillie*s  offer  of  retiring  for  an     / 
equivalent  provision ;    that  to  ruin  captain 
Baillie  would  be  beneath  lord  Sandwich ;  to 
make  a  provision  for  him  would  be  generous ; 
and  he  wondered  his  lordship  did  not  do  it. 
I  asked  him  if  captain  Baillie  was  in  earnest 
in  that  proposal.    Mr.  Murphy's  answer  was, 
that  to  be  consistent  with  himself,  he  must 
be  so.    I  told  him  that  I  frequently  had  the 
honour  of  seeing  lord  Sandwicn^  and,  if  it  was 
his  desire,  that  I  should  mention  what  had 
passed  between  us  to  his  lordship,  I  would  do 
so ;  he  accordingly  not  only  consented,  but 
desired  that  I  should  do  it;   I  wrote  to  his 
lordship,  that  I  had  some  particular  bu^ess 
to  communicate  to  him,  and  begged  he  would 
appoint  a  time  when  I  should  wait  upon  him ; 
his  lordship  appointed  me  to  breakfast  with 
him  the  next  day ;   and  I  accordingly  waited 
upon  him ;    I  cannot  immediately  recollect 
the  day  of  the  month  >  and  though  I  have 
taken  some  pains  to  find  it,  I  have  not  been 
able ;   but  I  should  imagine  it  *vas  about  the 
10th,  11th,  or  isth  (but  I  maybe  wrong  as 
to  two  or  three  days)  of  the  mouth  of  De- 
cember.    In  consequence  of  this  desire,  I 
waited  upon  his  lordship ;  he  heard  me  relate 
the  conversation  which  had  passed  between 
Mr.  Murphy  and  myself  the  preceding  day;   . 
it  is  impossible  to  be  more  ayerse  tmm  his 
lordship  was  to  proceed  at  all  upon  the  busi- 
ness ;  put  upon  my  representing  to  him,  that 
Mr.  Murphy  was  a  man  of  a  very  respectable ' 
character,  his  lordship  consented  to  give  him. 
through  me,  an  answer  to  what  had  passed 
the  day  before  between  us ;  his  lordship  said, 
however  disrespectful,  ungrateful,  or  ungene- 
rous, captain  Baillie's  conduct  might  nave 
been,  he  really  did  not  wish  to  ruin  him,  or 
to  add  to  his  distresses ;  but  captain  Baillie 
had  made  himself  so  exceeding  odious  to 
every  person  in  the  Hospital,  and  his  stay 
there  would  be  such  an  infinite  source  of  di^ 
content  and  division,  and  was  so  directly 
contrary  and  incompatible  with  the  peace  and 
welfare  of  the  Hospital,  that  it  was  impossi- 

*  Se0  JMr.  finikio0*8  (Bout  powwfbl  ipeoQli,  wf. 
p.  31. 


343] 


18  GEORGE  UI.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaillU,         [344 


ble  to  continue  him  in  the  Hospital  any 
longec;  if,  therefore,  he  would  consult  the 
peace  and  welfare  of  the  Hospital  so  much, 
as  to  retire  immediately,  and  resign  all  his  of- 
fices end  employments  there,  that  he  had  no 
objection  to  make  him  some  provision ;  he 
said  he  would  not  see  captain  BailUe  on  any 
account  or  pretence  whatever ;  but  that*  he 
had  no  objection  to  see  Mr.  Murphy.  Lcom- 
municated  these  proposals  to  Mr.  Murphy  the 
same  day ;  and,  at  the  same  meeting,  the  fol- 
lowing proposals  were  dictated  to  me,  by  Mr. 
Murphy. 

How  did  you  communicate  to  Mr.  Murphy 
"^yhat  lord  Sandwich  said  ? — By  word  of  mouth; 
when  I  came  into  Mr.  Murphy's  chambers, 
captain  Baillie  and  his  brother  fas  Mr.  Mur- 
phy has  since  told  me)  happenea,  by  accident, 
to  be  at  Mr.  Murphy's  chambers ;  when  I 
came  into  Mr.  Murphy's  chambers,  those  two 
gentlemen  retired  into  another  apartment ;  I 
told  Mr.  Murphy  what  hafl  passed  between 
Xdrd  Sandwich  and  myself;  and  this  proposal 
was  immediately  dictated  to  me  by  Mr.  Mur- 
phy :  '*  Captain  Baillie,  upon  havmg  his  sus- 
pension taken  off,  and  receiving  the  interme- 
diate profits,  and  being  permitted  to  stay  in 
the  Hospital  for  a  given  time,  will  then  resign 
his  office,  an  equivalent  provision  being  to  be 
made  for  him ;  he  considers'his  place  in  the 
Hospital  at  600/.  per  annum ;  being  desired 
to  point  out  a  mode,  he  thinks  it  may  be 
done  in  the  following  manner:  he  under- 
stands captain  Kirke,  a  commissioner  of  the 
vie tualling-oflice,  would  prefer  to  be  the  lieute- 
nant jgpvemor  of  Greenwich  Hospital ;  he 
therefore  may  be  appointed  in  captain  Bail- 
lie's  room ;  and  captain  Baillie  will  be  con- 
tent to  retire  on  his  half-pay,  if  his  son-in-law, 
Mr.  Devisme,  is  appointed  a  commissioner,  in 
the  room  of  Mr.  Kirke ;  or  a  commissioner's 
place,  at  Minorca,  for  himself ;— in  this  case, 
he  will  do  whatever  is  in  his  power  to  prevent 
^y  farther  disturbance  on  the  subject ;  and 
the  remaining  copies  of  the  printed  Case  shall 
be  destroyed  m  the  presence  of  any  person 
that  will  attend  for  that  purpose.  He  hopes 
there  will  be  no  more  printing  on  either  side." 
This  proposal  was  dictated  to  me  by  Mr. 
Murphy,  and  which  I  communicated  to  his 
lordship. 

Is  that  paper  in  your  hand-writing,  or  in 
Mr.  Murphy's  ? — In  my  hand-writing ;  it  is 
what  Mr.  Murphy  immediately  dictated ;  I 
;am  at  present  at  a  loss  to  say  whether  it  was 
taken  from  a  paper  I  copied  immediately 
under  his  eye,  or  wliether  he  dictated  it ;  I 
believe  it  w^  partly  the  one,  afad  partly  the 
other ;  but  as  soon  as  X  copied  it,  I  read  it : 
there  is  also  in  this  paper  some  words,  which 
1  should  mention  to  your  lordships,  which 
jare  as  follows :  "  Memorandum,  to  explain 

to "  (which  was  lord  Sandwich)  "  the 

purport  of  the  first  and  last  article."  That  is 
a  memorandum  which  I  made  at  tlie  time, 
enly  for  my  own  observatiotfi,  as  this  was  not 
the  tiling  nieaQt  to  be  immediately  delivenxl 


in  to  his  lordship.  I  immediately  sent  t^at 
proposal  to  my  lord  Sandwich.  I  received, 
the  same  day,  a  letter  from  him,  desiring  that 
Mr.  Murphy  and  myself  would  attend,  at  his 
lordship's  house,  the  Sunday  following ;  I  be- 
lieve it  was  the  next  day  but  one  following ; 
but,  however,  I  recollect  it  was  the  Sunday 
following ;  accordingly,  Mr.  Murphy  and  my- 
self waited  upon  his  lordship. 

Did  you  send  a  copy  of  that  letter  to  my 
lord    Sandwich  ?— This  is  the  direct  paper 
which  I  sent  to  his  lordship ;  in  consequence 
of  this,  Mr.  Murphy  and  I  waited  upon  his 
lordship,  Mr.  Cooke  was  also  present;   his 
lordship  told  Mr.  Murphy,  that  captain  Baillie 
was  a  man  with  whom  he  could  have  no  con- 
nection, or  transact  any  business,  but  that  he 
had  formerly  been  concerned  in  business,  in 
which  Mr.  Murphy  had  been  employed ;  he 
also  said'  he  knew  him  very  well  from  his 
character,  and  therefore  considered  him  as  a 
man,  on  "whose  honour  and  integrity  he  could 
rely ;   he  also  Said,  that  whatever  motives  of 
complaint   he  might   have  against  captain 
Baillie,  these  motives  really  hs^  at  that  time 
no  kind  of  weight  with  him ;    that  his  pre- 
sence in  the  Hospital  was  grown  to  be  such 
a  great,  obstacle  to  the  peace,  welfare,  and 
good  government  of  the  Hospital,  that  it  was 
impossible   he    should   continue    there  any 
longer;   that  he  had  received  formal  com^ 
plamts  against  captain  Baillie,  from  every 
order  of  men  in  the  Hospital,  and  thereibre  it 
was  not  in  his  power  to  continue  him,  if  he 
meant  to  act  for  the  welfare  and  good  of  the 
Hospital,  but  he  did  not  wish  to  ruin  him  ;  if 
captain  Baillie   would  so  fkr   consider  the 
peace  and  welfare  of  the  Hospital^  as  to  retire 
immediately,  and  resign  all  his  ofiSces  and 
employments,  he  had  no  objection  to  make 
the  provision  that  was  mentioned  for  Mr. 
Devisme^  or  for  any  of  captain  Baillie's  fa- 
mily ;   his  lordship  then  read  the  proposals, 
which  I  have  had  the  honour  of  reading  to 
your  lordships      He  said,  that  with  respect 
to  what  captain  BailUe  had  mentioned  of  cap- 
tain Kirke,  he  believed  he  was  much  mis- 
informed, as  captain  Kirke  did  not  wish  tlie 
change  which  was  there  mentioned,  anct,  with 
respect  to  a  ^'  commissioner's  place  at  Mir 
norca,  which  captain  Baillie  mentioned  for 
himself,  he  could  not  give  him  that  place,  or 
give  him  any  place  where  he  would  have  to 
act  in  concert  with  any  other  person,  as  he 
knew,  from    long   experience,  that  captain 
Baillie's  temper  was  so  singularly  imhappy 
and  intemperate,  as  to  make  it  impossible  for 
any  mortal  to  live  with  him  * ;"    but  with  re- 

*  This  illiberal  altack.upon  ua  officer,  whoM 
chanoter  is  his  life  and  fortone*  originating  onlj  in 
the.  mhid  of  lord  Sandwiob,  is  not  oooiirmod  bj  a 
single  instaaoe  of  niscondoct  on  Ik9  |mu1  of  captaia 
Baillie,  in  the  coune  of  40  yean  senrio*,  asd  asuonnts 
to  only  hearsay  evidence  at  the  best,  of  what  Mr. 
l^nrphy  and  Mr.  Butler  said  Uiey  ha^  Lesrd  loi4 
Saadwioh  say  ;  yet  his  lordship  was  pleased  to  de- 
clare afterwards  in  his  speech,  that  he  had  ^t  ^ 


*  .  •  ■ 

315]        retpeding  the  Rotftd  HotpUat  at  Grtemoich.        A.  D.  1778* 


[546 


sped  to  the  urovisioa  for  Mr.  Devisroe,  whom 
he  haA  heard  was  a  more  temperate  man,  he 
had  no  ohjection  to  make  some  provision  for 
Mr.  Devisme.  Mr.  Murphy  took  occasion  to 
say  what  he  thought.-would  excuse  or  recom- 
mend captain  Baillie^s  conduct,  upon  his 
mentioning  captain  Baillie's  offer  to  giv»'the 
copies  of  his  printed  Case,  and  also  the  use 
of  the  affidavits ;  lord  Sandwich  said,  that 
with  respect  to  Ms  printed  Case  and  affidavits, 
and  his  conduct  in  every  other  respect,  he 
was  quite  at  liberty  to  act  as  he  pleased,  that 
matters  had  gone  so  far,  that  captain  Baillie 
at  present  had  nothing  in  his  nower ;  that 
with  respect  to  an  enquiry  into  his  adminis- 
tration of  Greenwich  Hospital,  either  in  nar- 
hament  or  elsewhere,  he  rather  wishea  to 
brii^  it  on,  than  sought  to  avoid  it ;  and  as 
matters  then  stood,  if  captain  Baillie  was 
ever  so  desirous  of  wishing  to  prevent  this 
enquiry,  that  it  was  impossible  m  him  to  be 
of  the  least  service  in  dom^  it ;  he  therefore 
said,  he  had  nothing  in  his  power  to  offer ; 
however,  as  he  did  not  wish  to  ruin  him,  and 
as  getting  him  immediately  from  the  Hospi- 
tal would  be  contributing  very  essentially  to 
the  good  and  welfare  of  the  Hospital,  if  cap- 
tain Baillie  would  so  far  co-operate,  as  to  con- 
tribute to  that  essential  advantage,  he  would 
make  hjm  the  provision  whlcn  he  before 
spoke  of  for  Mr.  Devisme,  or  any  of  captain 
Baillie's  fiunily ;  upon  this  we  parted. 

I  believe  it  was  the  day  afler,  or  the  day 
next  but  one,  but  1  cannot  immediately  say ; 
this  proposal  is  dated  the  12th  of  December^ 
which  I  mentioned  to  your  lordship ;  and  the 
conversation,  which  I  am  now  about  to  com- 
municate, 'was,  I  believe,  on  the  16th,  and 
that  conversation  was  held  at  Mr.  Murphy's 
chambers,  at  which  captain  Baillie,  Mr.  Mur- 
phy, captain  Baiilie*s  brother,  and  myself, 
were  present.  Mr.  Murphy  repeated  to  cap- 
tain millie  what  had  passed  between  his  lord- 
ship and  myself  at  that  meeting;  he  also 
mentioned  to  him  what  had  passed  between 
us  at  the  meeting  at  the  coffee-house.  How- 
ever, from  the  manner  in  which  he  mentioned 
it,  I  thought  that  his  mentioning  what  had 
passed  between  us  at  the  coffee-house,  was 
father  to  have  my  approbation ;  that  he  re- 
peated it  in  a  more  faithful  manner,  than  that 
tt  was  the  first  time  he  had  communicated  it 
to  captain  Baillie :  it  seemed  to  me  that  he 
had  repeated  it  before  to  captain  Bailiie,  but 

lacked  captain  Baillie'i  chaniotcr  as  an  officer,  for 
%t  knew  nothing  of  him  as  racb,  (ood  or  bad ;  it 
wottU  therefore  have  been  honourable  in  bit  lord- 
ship, to  have  said  so  on  the  spot,  when  theite  assAr- 
tioiM  were  made.^  Can  there  be  any  greater  impa- 
tation  opon  the  character  of  a  nan,  especially  ata 
4iAoer,  than  the  words  (marked  with  .inverted 
tirmmaii),  echoed  by  Mr.  BoUer  from  the  lips  of  lord 
Sandwich  ?  Upon  the  whole,  it  is  hoped,  the  greater 
pirt  of  this  harangne  will  be  considered  as  extrm- 
JMOns  matter,  qnite  foreign  from  the  purpose^  art- 
follj  iotrodaced  to  injore  the  character  of  an  officer, 
m9  »ther  mode  could  be  devised.     Orig.  Ed, 


was  then  repeating  it  before  me,  that  I  might 
contradict  any  thing,  if  it  was  represented 
improperly;  there  was  nothine  represented 
improperly  by  him,  therefore.  I  contradicted 
nothing ;  there  was  a  ^reat  deal  of  conversa- 
tion passed  between  the  two  Mr.  BailJies,  Mr. 
Murphy,  and  myself,  respecting  the  business 
before  us  ;  but,  however,  it  ended  in  the  fol- 
lowing proposal :  (I  have  endeavoured  to  re- 
collect every  thing  material ;  but  I  do  not  re- 
collect there  was  any  thing  else  material;) 
the  whole  conversation  ended  in  this  second 
proposal,  which  was  also  dictated  (by  Mr. 
Murphy ;  whether  dictated  to  me,  or  copied 
finom  a  writing  he  gave  me,  I  do  not  pretend 
to  say ;  but  after  I  had  written  it,  I  read  it 
over  to  Mr.  Murphy,  and  he  approved  of  it. 

**  Captain  Baillie,  upon  having  an  equiva- 
lent made  him,  is  willing  to  resi^  his  office 
of  lieutenant-governor  of  Greenwich  Hospital, 
which  provision  may  be  ieither  to  him  or  Mr. 
Devisme,  as  before-mentioned;  but  the  re- 
signation is  not  to  be  made  till  the  compen- 
sation is  given.  Captain  Baillie  wishes  to 
have  a  ship,  though  it  be  but  for  one  cruize, 
in  order  to  go  out  of  the  Hospital  with  credit, 
and  to  receive  the  emoluments  of  his  office, 
till  the  compensation  is  given,  nothing  done 
in  this  business  to  keep  the  service  from 
being  open  to  capt.  Baillie  on  any  occasion.'' 

There  is  also  upon  ^is  a  letter,  which  I  sent 
with  the  above  proposal  to  my  lord  Sandwich: 
I  don't  know  whether  vour  lordship  will 
choose  it  should  be  read,  but  if  you  do,  I  will 
read  it. 

The  Eaxi  of  Sandtoich.    Read  it,  read  it. 

Mr.  Butler  read  the  Letter  as  foiloweth  s 

**  My  lord,  the  above  is  the  proposal  deli- 
vered in  by  captain  Baillie  to  Mr.  Murphy  and 
myself,  and  desired  by  him  to  be  delivered  to 
your  lordship ;  he  was  particularly  solicitous 
that  it  should  not  be  shewn  to  Mr.  Cooke,  or 
Mr.'^Ihbetson ;  and  that  wheivl  had  the  ho- 
nour of  waitine  again  on  your  lordship  to  re- 
ceive your  lordship's  sentiments  upon  it,  that 
Jdr.  Cooke  shoum  not  be  present.  The^  an- 
swer to  his  book  is  ready  for  the  press ;  I  am 
to  read  it  over  to  Mr.  Ibbetson  to  day,  ^d  to 
Mr.  Cooke  to-morrow. — I  ha.ve  the  honour  to 
be,  with  great  respect,  your  lordship's  obliged 
and  humble  servant,      Charles  Butleji.'^ 

"  December  16,  1778." 

In  consequence  of  this  letter  being  sent  to 
lord  Sandwich,  I  waited  again  upon  his  lord- 
ship ;  his  discourse  was  in  every  respect  the  . 
same  as  it  had  been  the  day  before ;  ne  said, 
that  with  respect  to  his  book,  and  his  affida- 
vits, and  his  conduct  in  every  other  respect, 
he  was  at  liberty  to  act  as  he  pleased ;  that 
the  present  situation  of  Greenwich  Hospital 
was  such,  that  it  was  impossible  to  keep  capt. 
Baillie  any  longer  in  the  Hospital,  consistent 
with  his  duty  to  the  Hospital ;  that  if  captain 
Baillie  would  resign  all  his  employments,  and 
retire  immediately,  it  would  be  doing  an  es- 
sential service  to  Uie  Hospital ;  and  he  would 


347] 


tS  GEORGE  IIL  The  Cote  qfCapiam  Thomas  BaOUe^         [348 


BO  far  consider  it  as  to  make  the  proviaiooy 
whkh  he  before  spoke  of,  for  Mr.  Devisme, 
or  his  faaiil^ ;  that  if  he  did  not  resien  his 
office  and  his  employmenU,  he  should  con- 
sider it  as  a  defiance  of  his  right  to  remove 
him,  ui4  should  proceed  accormngly ;  that  at 
all  events  he  should  auit  the  Hospital,  where 
his  presence  was  absolutely  incompatible  with 
the  good  government  of  the  Hospital,  and  the 
peace  and  happiness  of  ^ose  that  were  in  it ; 
the  day  after,  I  believe,  it  was ;  (if  I  should  be 
mistaken  in  a  day  I  am  sure  I  shall  be  ex- 
cused) I  communicated  what  had  passed  be- 
tween us  to  Mr.  Murphy,  at  Mr.  Murphy's 
chamber,  at  which  captam  Baillie  ana  Mr. 
Murphy  were  present ;  I  also  believe  (it  is 
difficult  to  remember  at  this  distance  of  time, 
as  I  did  not  immediately  attempt  to  recollect 
myself;)  that  Mr.  Baulie's  brother  was  also 
there  at  the  second  meeting ;  but  whether  he 
was,  or  not,  I  am  at  a  loss  to  say ;  I  believe 
it  is  immaterial ;  but  I  wish  to  express  myself 
with  as  much  accuracy  as  I  can ;  I  commu- 
nicated what  had  j^assed  between  them  to  Mr. 
Murphy  and  omtam  Baillie ;  a  great  deal  of 
discourse  passed  udool  that  subject ;  Mr.  Mur- 
phy recommendea  ca(»tain  Baillie  to  retire  on 
the  &ith  of  his  lordship's  promises,  in  which 
I  also  joined  him,  as  I  pitied  much  the  case 
of  captain  Baillie;  however,  it  did  not  seem 
proper  to  him  to  do  so ;  in  consequence  of 
which  the  meeting  broke  up.  Captain  Bsdllie 
himself^  and  his  brother  (whether  it  was  this, 
<kr  another  time,  but  he  once,  I  am  sure,  was 
in  company)  they  both  expressed  themselves 
perfectly  satisfied  with  my  conduct,  and  in 
the  part  I  had  taken  in  the  business,  and  we 
part^  seemingly  on  very  good  terms;  there 
are  some  other  circumstances  I  beg  leave  to 
mention  to  your  lordships ;  the  first  time  I 
had  the  honour  of  meeUng  captain  Bsdllie  at 
Hr.  Muiphy*s,  the  two  Mr.  Baillie's  were  pre- 
sent. Mr.  Murphy  told  them,  that  what  he 
was  about  to  communicate  to  them  was  under 
the  seal  of  sec'recv,  and  a  perfect  confidence 
of  honour,  that  whatever  the  event  of  the 
husiness  might  be,  or  whatever  turn  it  might 
take,  neither  party  should  take,  or  attempt  to 
take,  the  least  advantage  of  it.  I  understood 
from  Mr.  Murphy,  at  the  time,  that  the  first 
time  he  had  spoken  to  captain  Baillie  on 
the  subject  (for  he  had  spoken  to  him  pre- 
vious to  our  meeting  together)  that  secrecy 
was  enjoined. 

What  had  passed  between  Mr.  Murphy  and 
captain  Baillie,  is  only  hearsay  ?—ljie  first 
time  I  saw  Mr.  Murphy  at  Serle's  coffee- 
house, we  had  general  discourse  between  us ; 
that  what  then  passed  was  to  go  no  farther ; 
and  that  no  kind  of  advantage  or  use  should 
he  made  of  it ;  when  I  met  captain  Baillie 
and  his  brother  at  Mr.  Murphy's  chambers, 
the  same  discourse  passed  between  us ;  and 
Mr.  Murphy  told  them,  that  whatever  turn 
the  busmess  might  take,  neither  part^  was  to 
take  the  least  advantage  of  it,  to  which  cap- 
tain Baillie  and  bis  brother  solemnly  assent- 


ed ;  the  last  thing  that  was  done  at  our  last 
meetin&was  to  renew  this  declaration,  and  it 
received  the  sa^ne  agreement  on  all  sides ;  and 
I  am  sure,  on  mine,  it  has  been  very  reli- 
ously  observed.  At  one  of  our  meetings;  but 
whether  it  was  the.  first  or  second,  I  cannot 
immediately  recollect;  I  mentioned,  I  believe^ 
to  captain  Baillie,  at  least  it  was  mentioned, 
and  I  believe  it  was  I  who  mentioned  it,  as  I 
do  not  believe  any  body  else  in  company  then 
knew  it,  that  there  was  in  the  press  a  publi- 
cation of  the  report  of  the  committee,  to 
which  publication  captain  Baillie  seemed  ex- 
ceedingly averse ;  I  told  him  that  I  thought 
it  was  but  proper,  as  he  had  attacked  the  cha- 
racters of  many  individuals  by  one  publica- 
tion, they  should  be  at  liberty  to  defend  their 
characters  by  another ;  captain  Baillie  seemed 
exceedingly  to  object  to  this  publication. 
However,  that  the  business  did  not  go  on, 
was  not  owing  in  any  wise  to  any  difference  of 
opinion  in  this  respect;  had  it  rested  with 
me,  I  am  ^exj  certam  that  it  would  not  have 
been  anv  material  difficulty  in  the  treatv ;  for 
I  should  have  advised  the  parties,  whether 
they  would  have  accepted  my  advice  or  not,  I 
anv  at  present  at  a  loss  to  say,  but  I  should 
have  recommended  tq  them  not  to  have  pub- 
lished the  report,  provided  other  matters  had 
been  settled :  but  as  it  was  a  )und  of  running 
treaty,  I  cannot  express  myself  upon  that 
point ;  I  am  certain,  as  far  as  I  am  able  to 
judge,  it  appeared  to  me  to  go  off  upon  this 
ground,  that  captain  Baillie  was  persuaded 
erroneously,  as  I  told  him  at  that  time,  that 
he  could  hold  his  place  in  law,  and  therefore 
would  not  retire  tin  he  was  put  in  the  actual 
possession  of  an  equivalent ;  I  have  now  done 
with  the  whole  I  have  to  say  on  this  business, 
except  two  points  I  see  I  have  neglected  to 
mention,  which  are,  that  I  am  perfectiy  satis- 
fied that  the  meeting  at  Serle's  coffee-house 
was,  on  Mr.  Miirphy's  side,  perfectiy  acci- 
dental ;  and  I  can  assure  your  lordships  it  was 
perfectiy  accidental  on  mine;  Mr.  Murphy 
arrived  that  very  morning  out  of  the  country 
on  a  sudden  business;  he  stopt  at  the  cofiee- 
house  before  he  went  to  his  chambers;  we 
had  frequently  talked  together  at  the  coffee- 
house before,  and  it  happened  we  talked  then ; 
however,  on  my  side,  it  was  perfectly  acci- 
dental, and  I  had  not  the  least  oirection,  wish» 
or  desire  of  my  own,  to  talk  with  captain 
Baillie,  Mr.  Murphy,  or  any  of  captain  Bail- 
lie's  friends  upon  tiie  subject ;  I  am  suffici- 
entiy  conversant  with  business,  to  know  that 
any  sort  of  undertaking  in  that  way,  is  at- 
tended with  more  danger  to  the  party  con- 
cerned, than  it  can  with  any  advantage. 

I  understood  you,  that  lord  Sandwich  said 
he  had  talked  with  Mr.  Kirice,  and  Mr.  Kirke 
had  no  thoughts  of  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — 
Lord  Sandwich  did  not  say  he  had  talked  with 
capt.  Kirke ;  lord  Sandwich  said  he  believed 
capt.  Baillie  was  mis-informed  upon  the  sub- 
ject; I  understood  that 'my  lord  Sandwich 
either  knew  or  behoved  that  captain  Kirke 


349}         fttpeOing  the  Royd  Hospital  at  Greemmch.         A.  D.  1778* 


[S50 


would  not  consent  to  any  such  exchange,  but 
I  never  heard  that  he  had  talked  with  captain 
Kirke  on  the  busness. 

Do  yon  recollect  whether  lord  Sandwich 
sa^  in  that  conversation,  that  the  directors 
of  Greenwich  Hospital  had  declared  th^ 
would  not  act  with  captain  Baillie? — ^It  is  dif- 
ficult, at  this  time,  to  say  that  he  made  use 
of  those  express  words;  the  words,  as  far  as 
they  strike  me,  were,  thai  he  had  received 
formal  complaints  from  every  order  of  men  in 
the  Hospital ;  but  those  particular  words,  or 
words  ot  the  same  effect,  I  believe  lord  Sand- 
widi  did  not  make  use  of. 

Do  you  recollect  that  lord  Sandwich  said, 
that  such  being  their  resolution,  whether  ri^ht 
or  wrong,  he  must  quarrel  with  them,  or  with 
captain  Baillie;  he  would  not  quarrel  with 
the  directors? — ^I  do  not  recollect  that  lord 
Sand^ch  made  use  of  the  first  part  of  the 
dedaraticm;  but,  as  far  as  mv  recollection 
serves  me,  lord  Sandwich  said,  that  matters 
were  now  in  such  a  situation  that  it  was  in- 
cumbent on  him,  either  to  auarrel  with  the 
directors,  or  witii  captain  Baillie ;  and  that 
be  should  make  no  aoubt  of  preferring  the 
directors  to  captain  Baillie ;  or  words  to  that 
t£fect. 

Do  you  recollect  whether  lord  Sandwich 
said,  that  there  was  a  great  deal  of  right,  and 
a  great  deal  of  wrong,  in  captain  Baillie  ? — 
Lord  Sandwich  said,  that  he  believed  captain 
BaOlie,  in  the  first  outset  of  this  business, 
might  have  some  good  intentions  ;  as  far  as 
I  can  recollect,  his  lordship's  expression  was, 
that  these  good  intentions,  such  as  they 
were,  were  always  counteracted  by  a  very 
uncommon  twist  of  understanding. 

Do  you  recollect  whether  lord  Sandwich 
said,  lliat  if  captain  Baillie  would  write  a 
letter  to  the  Admiralty,  signifying  that  there 
was  a  combination  against  him.  m  the  Hos- 
pital, and  therefore  desiring  him  to  resign, 
without  g;iving  him  the  trouble  to  dismiss 
him,  he  woula  make  up  his  hidf-pay  600/.  a 
year? — I  have  endeavoured  to  inform  your 
lordships  of  the  whole  that  passed  upon  that 
subject ;  there  are  some  questions  to  which 
it  is  difficult  to  give  a  decisive  no  or  yes  to  ; 
because  lord  Sandwich  said  so  in  one  part, 
but  not  in  the  other  part.  His  lordship  said, 
if  captain  Baillie  would  consult  the  peace  of 
the  Hospital,  by  resigning  his  employments, 
and  retiring,  either  signi^ing  his  reasons  or 
not ;  and  he  might  at  the  same  time  mention 
the  reason  suggested ;  I  believe  he  did ;  but, 
however,  he  would  have  no  objection  to  his 
assigning  his  reasons ;  but,  if  he  would  re- 
tire, he  should  have  no  objection  to  making 
to  him  the  provision  before  spoken  of. 

That  provision,  I  understand,  is  the  one  for 
Mr.  Devisme  ?— Yes. 

Did  lord  Sandwich  say  he  would,  if  captua 
Baillie  would  resign,  make  up  his  half-pay 
^KX)/.  a  year? — No,  he  did  not;  and  I  am 
very  certain  upon  that  subject:  because,  I 
remember,  when  I  read  to  nis  lordship  that ; 


part  of  captain  Baillie's  first  proposal,  in  - 
which  he  says,  he  considered  his  place  in  the 
Hospital  worth  600/.  a  year,  lord  Sandwich 
said,  it  was  no  such  thing. 

Whether  you  rvcoUect  that  lord  Sandwich 
said  to  Mr.  Murphy,  that  in  statins  it  in  his 
argument,  in  tiie  court  of  Ring's-oench,  at 
600/.  a  year,  he  had  stated  it  fairly  ?— I  am 
very  certain  that  lord  Sandwich  told  me  these 
words  I  have  mentioned ;  and  I  am  also,  I 
think,  positive  (but  one's  oath  only  extemls 
to  one's  knowled^  and  belief;  but  as  far  as 
that  goes,  which  is  as  far  as  my  oath  goes)  £ 
am  positive,  he  never  said  any  such  tmng  to 
Mr.  Murphy. 

Do  you  recollect  Mr.  Cooke's  having  said, 
that  it  would  be  expected  that  the  report  of 
the  committee  should  be  printed,  without  any 
reply  on  the  part  of  captain  lUillie?--!,  at 
this  time,  do  not  recollect  that  Mr.  Cooke 
did  say,  or  did  not  say,  those  words;  I  am 
sure  that,  in  that  conversation,  Mr.  Cooke 
was  a  perfect  cypher ;  butwhetiier  he  said 
those  words  or  not,  I  cannot  immediately  say. 

Perhaps  some  words  may  bring  this  to  your 
recollection ;  whether  Mr.  Murphy  did  not 
say,  that  the  report  was  already  pipted  in 
two  columns,  and  that  captain  Baillie,  he 
might  depend  upon  it^  would  print  a  third  ?— 
I  am  sure  captain  Baillie  could  not  say  so  ; 
because,  to  my  certain  knowledge,  it  was  not 
then  printed  in  V^o  columns. 

Do  you  mean  printed,  or  published?— I 
mean  printed. 

It  was  not  at  that  time  printed  ?— No. 

Nor  prepared  in  two  columns?— There,  I 
cannot  immediately  pretend  to  say,  it  might , 
be  prepared  in  writine ;  though^  to  the  Mst 
of  my  remembrance,  I  believe  it  was  not ;  I 
do  nt>t  believe  it  was  printed  in  two  columns, 
till  the  16th  of  January. 

Had  you  not  mentioned  it  to  Mr.  Murphy, 
as  being  printed  in  two  columns? — I  men- 
tioned it  to  Mr.  Murphy,  and  to  captain  Bail« 
he,  that  there  was  an  idea  of  printing  the  re- 
port of  the  committee ;  that  it  was  actually^ 
the  press;  but  the  printing  of  that  report  of 
the  committee,  in  the  manner  in  which  It 
was  printed, -was  not  finished,  I  beheve,till 
the  16th  of  January;  and  that  happened  on 
the  16th  of  December. 

Then,  I  understand  you,  that  you  did  men- 
tion it  to  'be  in  the  press  ? — ^It  was. 

Then  coidd  it  be  otherwise  than  prepared 
in  the  manner  in  which  it  was  printea  ? — Cer- 
tsdnly :  there  misht  be  sufficient  for  the  first, 
second,  or  third  sheet  of  it,  without  the  foOrth 
or  fifth  sheet  being  ready;  I  don't  wish  to  be 
guilty  of  equivocation.  The  first  time  my 
lord  Sandwich  spoke  to  me  on  the  subject,  1 
told  him  it  was  my  opinion,  that  the  report  of 
the  committee  should  be  printed,  ana  such 
other  of  the  official  papers  of  the  Hospital  as 
misht  tend  to  elucioate  that  report;  and  his 
lordship  was  so  obliging  as  to  follow  my  ad- 
vice uj^n  the  subject ;  and  in  that  manner  it 
was  prmted,  at  the  time  inentioned.    I  don^t 


351] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaiUie,  [353 


believe  that  above  half  of  it  had  been  prepared 
ready  for  the  press;  because  the  report  of 
jthe  committee  does  not  go  to  every  particular 

Eoint,  which  is,  mentioned  in  captain  Baillie's 
ook ;  and  there  was  a  great  difficulty  in  se^ 
lectin^  such  points  as  immediately  were  an- 
swered by  the  report  of  the  committee,  in  the 
order  in  which  the  committee  reported  them ; 
tliere  was  a  great  deal  of  difficulty  to  do  it  in 
such  a  manner,  as  captain  Baillie  might  not 
liave  reasoil  to  think  it  was  don^  partially,, 
and  that  took  up  a  great  deal  of  time  and 
labour ;  and  therefore,  at  the  time  mentioned, 
I  do  not  believe  half  the  book  was  printed, 
or  prepared ;  I  may  be  wrong ;  I  did  not  ex- 
pect to  be  asked  the  question ;  but  I  believe 
the  whole  was  not  prepared  for  the  press  till 
^  about  the  lOtb,  and  the  whole  was  not  printed 
'  till  the  16th  of  January. 

I  only  ask  whether  you  had  said  to  Mr. 
Murphy,  that  the  report  was  to  be  printed  in 
two  columns? — I  mentioned  to  Mr.  Murphy, 
that  the  report  was  to  be  printed ;  whether  ( 
mentioned  that  it  was  to  be  printed  in  two 
columns,  I  ^on*t  recollect ;  I  am  sure  if  he 
tays  I  did  say  so,  that  it  was  so. 

Do  you  charge  yourself  with  not  saying  so  ? 
i— I  change  myself  with  saying  the  report  was 
to  be  printed. 

But  in  two  columns  ? — There  I  am  igno- 
rant ;  if  Mr.  Murphy  or  captain  Baillie  say 
so,  I  am  sure  I  shall  not  d^ny  it. 

If  you  are  not  clear  upon  that ;  it  is  not  so 
absolutely  impossible  but  that  Mr.  Murphy 
might  have  said,  that  captain  Baillie  would 
print  a  third  ? — It  is  exceeaingly  probable. 

You  said  lord  Sandwich  declared,  that  if 
captain  BailUe  did  not  resign  his  office,  he 
should  consider  it  as  a  defiance  ? — ^As  a  de- 
fiance of  his  right 

Was  not  the  expression  used  '  as  a  flag  of 
defiance  ?'— I  am  sure  I  don't  recollect. 

I  think  you  mentioned,  that  in  the  first 
conversation  you  had  with  lord  Sandwich,  he 
said^  .that  if  captain  Baillie  would  resign,  be 
would  make  some  provbion  for  him  ? — Yes. 

When  Mr.  Murphy  and  these  gentlemen 
appeared  before  lord  Sandwich,  I  tnink,  if  I 
understood  you  right,  lord  Sandwich  said,  in 
substance,  that  he  would  not  make  a  provi- 
sion for  captain  Baillie  himself,  but  for  Mr. 
Devisme  ? — ^No,  he  did  not  say,  that  he  would 
not  make  a  provision  for  captain  Baillie  him- 
self, but  that  he  would  make  a  provision  for 
Mr.  Devisme :  by  the  first' proposal  of  captain 
Baillie,  he  says  he  shall  be  ecmally  pleased  if 
a  provision  is  made  for  Mr.  Devisme;  that 
bemg  the  consent  of  captain  Baillie,  and  the 
wish  of  lord  Sandwich,  there  was  no  dispute 
upon  that  head,  whether  tlie  provision  was  to 
be  to  Mr.  Devisme  or  captain  Baillie;  but 
k)rd  Sandwich  did  not  say,  he  would  not  make 
the  provbion  for  captain  Baillie;  but  it 
seemed,  as  it  was  then  going  oh,  it  was  agreed 
that  the  provision  was  to  be  for  Mr,  Devisme. 

Was  there,  or  not,  any  objection  to  m&king 
Ibe  provision  for  captain  BailUe  ?^I  find  my- 


self under'  some  difficulty  in  answering  that 
question,  on  this  ground ;  it  seemed  to  be  the 
consent  of  captain  Baillie,  and  the  wish  of  lord 
Sandwich,  that  the  provbion  ^should  be  for 
Mr.  Devisme ;  lord  Sandwich  seemed  to  wish 
that  the  provision  should  be  much  rather  for 
Mr.  Devisme  than  for  captain  Baillie ;  but  I 
don't  recollect  that  his  loniship  went  so  far  as 
to  say,  he  would  not  make  a  provision  for  cap- 
tain Baillie ;  but  he  seemed  to  wish  that  the 
provision  should  be  made  for  Mr.  Devisme,  ^ 
whom  he  called  a  very  temperate  man,  rather  " 
than  for  captain  Baillie. 

But  the  day  after  you  met  Mr.  Murphy  at 
the  coffee-house,  in  that  conversation  lord* 
Sandwich  said^  he  would  make  some  provision 
for  aiptain  Baillie ;  for  I  understood  that  Mr. 
Devisme*s  name  was  not  mentioned  then  ? — 
The  first  conversation  I  had  with  lord  Sand- 
wich upon  Ihe  subject,  was  so  exceedingly,  in 
general,  a  vei>'  remote  preliminary  of  a  treaty 
that  might  not  take  place  ;  I  believe  the  pro- 
vision then  talked  ot,  was  for  captain  BaiUie  ;  \ 
but  it  was  a  very  remote  plan ;  it  was  only  to 
know  whether  any  kind  of  treaty  might  be 
attempted  between  Mr.  Murphy  and  myself. 

I  took  your  words  down^  that  lord  Sand* 
wich  said  to  you.  the  first  time  you  saw  him 
after  talking  with  Mr.  Mimi^y  at  the  coffee- 
house, that  if  captain  Baillie  would  resign, 
lord  Sandwich  would  make  some  provision 
for  him  ? — I  beheve  those  are  the  words  that 

Eassed  between  lord  Sandwich  and  myself ; 
ut  I  beg  to  observe  that  every  thing  then 
was  much  in  generab. 

Did  there,  at  that  time,  appear  to  be  zny 
objection  in  lord  Sandwich  to  make  a  pro- 
vision for  captain  Baillie.? — It  did  not  appear 
to  me  but  what  his  lordship  was  willing  to 
inake  a  provision  for  him,  ii  all  tilings  were 
properly  settled.  « 

There  was  then  no  objection  in  lord  Sand- 
wich to  make  the  provision  for  captain  Baillie  ? 
— ^No. 

Do  you  recollect,  in  the  course  of  the  rela- 
tion Mr.  Murphy  gave  of  this  conversation  to 
captain  Baillie  and  his  Jorother,  that  Mx. 
Murphy  frequently  appealed  to  you,  dearing, 
that  if  he  Imd  misstated  anv  thing,  that  you 
would  set  him  right  ? — ^All  along  so. 

Did  you,  at  any  time,  contradict  any  thine 
he  had  said?— I  don't  recollect  that  I  did 
contradict  any  thing;  but  if  I  did,  it  was  so 
soon  settled  between  us,  that  it  did  never 
amount  to  a  difference  between  us  in  any 
particular. 

Do  you  recollect,  whether  captsun  Baillie, 
in  that  conversation,  did  not  say,  that  he  "was 
surprized  to  find  those  offers  whittied  down 
to  threats  ? — I  am  very  certain  he  never  said 
any  such  thing,  if  your  lordship  means  at  the 
first  meeting. 

.  Had  you  two  or  three  meetings  ^th  Mr. 
Baillie  ? — I  had  only  two ;  in  the  last  meeting 
he  might  say  something  of  that  kind ;  I  do 
not  know  he  mentioned  those  very  words  ^ 
the  conversation  was  exceedingly  desultory « 


3SS]        r^pecHt^  ike  Boyd  Bo9fiiaI  a^  Gremnch.        A.  D.  177& 


[354 


J  do  Boi  know  that  he  mentioxied  those 
words;  but  he  might. 

JM  not  captaJB  Baillie  always  say,  that  he 
expected,  first  to  be  restored  to  the  office  from 
wbkh  he  was  then  suspended  ? — To  the  best 
^my  cecoUection,  he  did  not  always  say  so. 

When  did  he  say  otherwise  ? — ^It  is  exceed- 
jagly  difficult  to  point  out  the  progress  of  a 
tmaty  which  never  took  effect.  Inere  were 
Bupy  points  agitated  between  us,  for  which 
there  was  not  the  least-authority  from  lord 
Sandwich ;  hut  only  such  proposals,  ''  Sup- 
yeee  his  lordship  slioiild  agree  to  ^at,  will 
you  agyve  to  it  r  In  t^e  ooursq  o(  that  modi- 
fication of  treaties,  it  Ll-exceedingly  possible 
that,  in  some,  he  might  make  it  a  condition 
that  he  should  be  restored ;  but  I  don't  reco^ 
lect,  that  he  always  laid  down  that  as  an  es- 
sential of  the  treaty,  vrithout  which  it  could 
not  go  on. 

Can  you  charge  your  memory  with  any  one 
time  that  ever  captain  Baillie  consented  to 
leaigQ  his  employments,  before  he  had  been 
restored? — I  believe  there  were  times  in 
which  he  did  so. 

Be  so  good  as  to  name  them  ?— I  find  my- 
self under  a  dtfficultv  of  n^ntioning  the  exact 
time ;  I  cannot  call  the  hour  or  minute  to 
mind  in  which  he  did  it ;  nor  do  I,  at  this 
present  time,  recollect  the  stage  of  the  busi- 
ness ;  but  there  were  stages  in  the  business 
in  which  I  believe  that  might  be  so  modified, 
in  which  he  did  not  make  Siat  condition. 

Do  you  talce  upon  you  positively  tQ  say, 
that  at  any  time  ne  actually  did  give  up  his 
ebim  to  being  restored  ? — ^I  cannot  take  uj)on 
vse  to  say,  positively,  that  there  was  any  time 
in  which  his  would  have  given  up  his  place, 
without  being  restored ;  but  at  the  same  time 
that  I  sav  that,  I  have  also  to  add,  that  I  can- 
not say  that  there  was,  positively,  anv  time  in 
which  he  made  that  as  a  condition  absolutely 
indisDensible. 

Dia  not  you,  in  the  last  conversation  that 
you  had,  (ue  second  conversation)  tdl  cap- 
tain BaiUie,  that  if  he  did  not  resign,  upon 
the  promise  of  a  compensation  which  ford 
Sandwich  had  made,  in  the  presence  of  Mr. 
Murphy,  Mr.  Cooke,  and  yourself,  he  might 
depCTid  upon  beine  turned  out  in  a  few  days  ? 
—A  great  deal  of  evexy  thing  which  b  said^ 
depends  iqwn  the  words  in  which  it  is  thrown. 
I  humbly  conceive,  that  if  I  had  made  use  of 
4he  woras  '  he  might  depend  upon  it,'  in  a 
certain  tone  of  voice  and  manner,  it  would 
have  been  exceedingly  improper.  I  told  your 
lordships,  that  at  uiat  meetmg  I  pitied  him 
very  much.  I  think  captain  Baillie  has  since 
told  me,  I  behaved  as  a  brother  upon  that 
occasion  ;  be  has  made  use  of  those  vefy 
words.  I  recommended  him  to  do  it ;  but  if 
those  words  imply  any  thing  of  a  threat,  I 
am  Tery  sure  they  did  not  eome  from  me. 

Do  you  recollect  what  passed  at  the  end  of 
that  conyersation  ? — The  last  thing  that  my 
Aemory  serves  me  in,  perhaps  it  is  the  most 
jh^teiing  i»it  to  me,  wcup  th«  compliment 

VOL.  XXL 


captain  Baillie  was  pleased  to  pay  me;  and 
the  declaration  he  made,  how  much  he  was 
satisfied  with  my  conduct  upon  that  occasion : 
I  asked  him  if  any  thing  had  happened  in 
which  he  had  reason  to  complain  or  me ;  he 
said  not;  upon  that  we  partea. 

Do  not  you  recollect  bavins  uijeed  some 
reasons  to  captain  Baillie,  why  ne  should  not 
stand  out  so  much  ? — The  great,  and,  I  be- 
lieve, the  only  reason  was,  that  I  had  paid 
some  attention  to  the  question  of  law,  whe- 
ther they  had  a  right  of  removing  him ;  and 
I  told  him,  that  I  believed  they  nad  a  right 
of  removing  him ;  and  being  in  possession  of 
that  right,  I  thought  he  would  be  mad  if  he 
did  not  retire  with  the  promise  of  an  equiva- 
lent, rather  than  retire  without  the  promise 
of  any,  which  he  must  be  obliged  to  do  in  the 
course  of  a  few  months. 

Do  not  you  recollect  some  other  arguments 
which  you  used  to  him  about  the  fate  of  r^ 
formers  ? — ^I  am  very  sure  I  never  said  any 
such  thing.  I  remember  that  at  the  lime 
that  I  mentioned  to  captain  Baillie  that  ar- 
gument of  the  power  of  the  Admiralty  to  dis- 
place him ;  I  believe  I  mentioned  to  him^ 
among  other  arguments,  as  he  and  his  bro- 
ther are  very  fond  of  pictures ;  the  House  had 
suggested  to  me  a  circumstance  I  did  not  im- 
mSuately  recollect ;  the  circumstance  simply 
was  this ;  I  believe  it  is  a  story  the  House 
hks  pretty  generally  heard  of  Some  person 
not  so  pious  as  every  body  ought  to  be,  point> 
ing  to  a  crucifix,  said  to  some  person  who  was 
exceedingly  busy  in  reforming  the  abuses  of 
the  times,  ecch  ilfato  di  reformatori,  (behold 
the  fate  of  reformers.)  The  House  has  sug- 
gested to  me  that  I  did  mention  it ;  it  is  a 
very  well  known  story,  but  I  am  sure  I  never 
mentioned  it  in  a  manner  to  frighten  him. 

I  think,  in  the  course  of  what  you  said  first, 
you  mentioned  that  lord  Sandwich  did  not 
think  it  at  all  right  to  make  captaip  Baillie  a 
commissioner  at  Minorca,  because  be  did  not 
think  it  proper  to  put  him  in  any  situaUon| 
where  he  had  any  man  to  act  in  concert  with, 
on  account  of  his  temper ;  did  you  say  that  or 
not?— I  did  say  that. 

You  have  said  you  asked  Mr.  Murphy,  if 
he  thought  captain  Baillie  in  earnest,  when 
he  offered  lora  Sandwich  to  resign,  if  he  had 
an  equivalent  Did  you  know  that  he  had 
offeried  to  lord  Sandwich  to  resign,  if  he  had  an 
equivalent? — ^Previous  to  that  conversation  I 
did  not  know  it,  but  Mr.  Murphy  informed 
me  that  he  had  caused  several  applications  to 
b^  made  to  my  lord  Sandwich. 

Had  you  any  intimation  from  lord  Sand- 
wich to  speak  to  Mr.  Murphy,  or  any  other 
person  on  the  business? — ^I  nad  not  even  the 
most  distant  intimation  from  lord  Sandwich  to 
speak  to  Mr.  Murphy,  or  any  other  person 
upon  the  business,  or  to  cause  any  person  to 
speak  to  Mr."  Murphy,  or  any  other  person, 
upon  the  business ;  and  I  had  not  the  slightest 
Wish  or  design  of  my  own  to  do  it. 

Did  lord  Suadwich  Appear  to  you  to  wish  to 
2  A 


355J 


18  GB0R6E  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thma$  BaUlkf         [S56 


prevent  an  enquiry  into  his  conduct?— ^He  did 
not  seem  to  me  to  wish  to  prevent  any  en- 
quiry into  his  conduct;  on  the  contrary  he 
•eemed  very  eagerly  to  desire  it. 

Was  lora  Sandwich's  motive  in  offering 
capt.  Bullie  a  provision  to  prevent  an  en^ 
quiry? — I  am  very  certain  not;   and  could 
give  my  reasons  for  saying  that. 

What  appeared  to  you  to  he  his  motive  at 
that  time? — I  have  a  reason,  in  my  imagina- 
tion, which  appeared  to  me  as  the  motive 
which  induced  lord  Sandwich  to  act  in  that 
manner ;  it  is  only  a  motive  which  passed  in 
my  own  inind,  I  never  mentioned  it  to  any 
individual,  tiierefore  I  should  think  I  have 
hardly  a  right  to  he  called  upon  for  it  in  this 
House,  but  I  think  it  was  not  a  motive  to  pre- 
vent an  eniquiry ;  I  know  captain  Baillie  nad 
been  recommended  by  several  respectable 
persons ;  I  thought  it  might  be  in  regard  to 
those  persons. 

Did  captain  Baillie  mention  to  you,  that 
copies  of  (lis  affidavits  were  then  in  the  pos- 
session of  any  peer  of  this  House  ? — I  under- 
stood from  captain  Baillie,  that  several  of  his 
materials,  of  his  papers,  whether  that  com- 
prizes affidavits  or  not,  were  in  the  possession 
of  peers  of  this  House. 

Did  you  ever  recommend  to  him,  to  let  the 
report  of  the  committee  go  without  reply  ? 
—I  did,  knowing,  in  general,  the  very  little 
attention  that  the  public  pay  to  attacks  on 
paper ;  I  did  not  Uiink  the  attack  of  that  con- 
sequence to  merit  a  reply,  but  it  did  not  go 
onupon  any  diiference  of  opinions  of  that  kind. 

It  has  been  said,  in  an  account  that  has 
been  published,  that  upon  your  hearing  that 
copies  of  the  affidavits  were  m  the  possession 
of  some  peers  of  this  House,  you  were  exceed- 
ingly alarmed,  is  that  true  ? — I  knew  that  long 
t>efore  captain  Baillie  mentioned  it,  therefore 
could  not  be  surprized ;  I  think  that  standing 
behind  this  bar  m  the  course  of  last  sessions 
I  heard  some  conversation,  respecting  the  bu- 
/uness  of  Greenwich  Hospital. 

Did  the  first  proposal,  about  thb  negocia- 
tion,  come  from  Mr.  Murphy  to  you,  or  from 
you  to  Mr.  Murphy  ? — ^It  came  firom  Mr.  Mur- 
phy to  me. 

Mr.  Butler,  I  desire  that  part  of  the  mi- 
nutes may  be  read. 

Short-hand  Notes  read  as  foUoweth : 

^  It  is  exceedingly  probable,  that  the  con- 
versation might  begin  upon  that  subject 
([though  I  do  not  recollect  it  exacUy)  and  that 
it  might  go  on  to  the  case  of  Greenwich  Hos- 

£ital ;  in  the  course  of  that  business  Mr. 
lurphy  s^d,  he  was  exceedingly  surprized 
that  lord  Sandwich  did  not  accept  captain 
Baillie's  offer  of  retiring  for  an  equivalent  pro- 
vision ;  that  to  ruin  cantun  Baillie  would  be 
beneath  lord  Sandwich ;  to  make  a  provision 
for  him  would  be  generous,  anil  he  wondered 
bis  lordship  did  not  do  it.'' 

What  offer  did  that  relate  to  ?  Mr.  Muiphy 
laid,  he  was  exceedingly  surprised  tiiat  K>rd 


Sandwich  did  not  accept  captain  Baillie^s 
offer? — ^I  then  supposed,  and  now  suppose^ 
that  it  related  to  some  offer  that  had  been 
made  to  lord  Sandwich  on  that  subject. 

Do  you  not  believe  that  that  related  to  an 
offer  that  was  printed  in  Mr.  Baillie's  own 
affidavit?— O  no,  I  do  not  believe  that  it  did : 
from  the  tenor  of  the  conversation,  I  do  not 
believe  that  it  did  relate  to  any  offer  in  capt. 
Baillie's  publication ;  on  the  contrary,  from 
the  tenor  of  the  conversation,  as  Mr.  Murphy 
mentioned  to  me,  that  he  had  sent  letters  b^ 
Mr.  Garrick,  Dr.  Shepherd,  and  a  Mr.  Brown 
of  lincohi's  Inn,  I  rather  concluded  it  referred 
to  those  offers  than  any  other. 

Whether  you  recoUect  in  a  letter  you  read 
to  the  House,  which  you  wrote  to  the  eari  of 
Sandwicli,  that  mention  was  made  of  an  an- 
swer to  Mr.  Baillie's  book  being  ready  for  the 
press,  or  being  already  printed,  and  that  you 
were  to  shew  it  the  next  day  to  Mr.  Cooke 
and  Mr.  Ibbetson?— It  is  the  answer  to  hia 
book,  that  it  b  ready  for  the  press,  that  it  is 
dated  the  16th  of  December. 

What  did  you  mean  by  the  answer  to  this 
book  ?  Do  you  mean  the  report  of  the  com- 
mittee of  Greenwich  Hospital  ?— The  report 
of  the  committee  of  Greenwich  Hospital. 

Did  you  call  the  report  of  the  committee^ 
an  answer  to  his  book  ? — I  called  it  so  then. 

By  whose  instructions  were  yoato  ghcw  it 
to  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke,  and  Mr.  Ibbetson  ?-« 
Because,  as  they  were  on  the  spot,  I  thought 
as  I  was  a  perfect  stranger  in  the  business,  T 
had  never  hesutl  any  thmg  of  the  troubles  of 
Greenwich  Hospital,  or  any  tiling  relating  to 
it,  till  the  affair  of  Greenwich  llospiul  bjui 
been  argued ;  if  I  am  to  relate  every  thine 
that  passed  between  ray  lord  Sandwich  ana 
me  upon  that  subject,  I  will  do  it,  otherwise  I 
would  wish  to  be  excused,  as  I  may  involve 
myself  in  a  predicament  your  lordships  would 
not  wish  to  mvolve  me  in. 

It  struck  mc,  that  in  writing  that  letter, 
you  mentioned  the  answer  to  captain  Baillle*$ 
book,  I  did  not  know  whether  you  meant  the 
report  or  any  other  answer. — ^There  is  no 
other  answer  that  I  know  of,  but  the  report  of 
the  committee  of  Greenwich  Hospital. 

By  whom  were  you  employed  to  print  and 
publish  that? — I  considered  myself  employed 
m  that  book  by  my  lord  Sandwich,  and  by 
every  other  gentleman  who  conceived  himself 
traduced  m  Siat  book ;  I  stand  here  as  a  pro* 
fessional  man ;  I  do  not  enter  into  the  merits 
of  the  book,  when  I  call  it  an  answer ;  I  don*l 
say  whether  it  is  or  not,  or  mean  to  enter 
into  that  question  one  way  or  the  other. 

From  whom  did  you  receive  instructions 
to  take  under  your  care  the  printing  and 
publishing  of  that  book?~The  first  that  I 
neard  of  me  subject,  was  after  I  had  made 
myself  master,  as  well  as  I  could,  of  the 
transactions  in  the  court  of  KingVbench;  I 
recommended  to  lord  Sandwich  and  Mr.  Ib- 
betson, and  several  other  gentlemen,  that  in- 
stead of  recrimination^  of  which  there  is  n^ 


5S7]         rtipeding  the  ^oyat  HoipUal  at  Greenmch.         A.  D.  1778. 


[858 


eoA,  thej  sbouM  content  themselves  with 
printiiig  the  report  of  the  committee,  and 
having  recommended  that  lo  them,  I  found 
nut  a  person  who  could  superintend  the  cor- 
recting of  the  press,  (a  work  I  am  not  quali- 
£ed  for),  but  I  consider  myself  as  the  person 
who  printed  and  published  that  book. 

B7  whoae  orders  ? — Orders  I  had  ncme,  but 
by  the  consent  of  lord  Sandwich,  Mr.  Ibbct* 
son,  Mr.  Hicks,  and  a  variety  of  other  gen- 
Ikinen.  - 

Whether  you  recollect  an  expression  made 
oe  of  by  Mr.  Murphy,  that  if  the  report  of 
the  conunittee  was  printed,  that  they  mieht 
as  well  roll  themselves  in  the  kennel  ?_Wne« 
ther  Mr.  Murphy  used  those  words,  I  do  not 
know,  but  he  used  words  equally  expressive 
in  signification,  but  I  t^o  not  recpflect  the  im- 
mediate words. 

Speaking  of  the  motives  of  lord  Sandwich, 
in  answer  to  a  question  put  to  you,  you  said, 
jou  inaagined  it  might  be  owing  to  attention 
to  respectable  persons  that  had  recommended 
4:aptain  BaiUie;  whom  did  you  \understand 
those  persons  to  be  ?— I  understand  captain 
Baillie  bad  been  recommended  to  lord  Sand- 
wich bv  persons  very  high  in  rank ;  I  under- 
Atood  he  had  preferred  me  recommendations 
•f  those  persons  to  some  other  persons  high 
in  rank ;  that  being  the  case,  and  especially 
AS  I  have  the  recommendation  of  the  noble- 
man, whose  recommendation  he  had  post- 
poped,  to  the  recommendations  he  haa  re- 
ceived, I  conceived  them  to  be  persons  for 
whom  he  must  have  a  high  regard,  conse- 
quently would  not  do  any  thing  that  would 
appear  slighting  to  them. 
\  I  beg  you  will  name  those  persons  ? — As  1 
4iave  before  mentioned  to  your  lordships,  I 
never  mentioned,  directly  or  indirectly,  the 
name  of  any  person  whom  I  conceive  it  to 
be;  as  it  was  only  in  my  own  mind,  and  I 
4id  not  mention  the  person*s  name,  I  think 
I  have  no  right  to  be  called  upon;  I  submit 
with  great  respect  to  your  lordships. 

You  must  name  who  the  persons  are  ? — It 
may  be  an  impertinent  thing  for  me  to  have 
considered  such  a  thing;  I  hope  it  will  be 
looked  upon  as  a  decent  thing;  I  never  men- 
tioned it  to  any  body,  but  I  have  been  told 
that  lord  Bute*  recommended  captain  Baillie 
to  his  iordship,  whether  right  or  no,  I  cannot 
«ay. 

Your  imagination  then  was,  that  lord  Sand- 
wich's dispositions  of  regard  to  captain  Baillie, 
were  out  of  regard  to  loid  Bute  ?— I  considered 
that  it  was  so ;  there  is  one  thine  which  I 
shall  beg  leave  to  mention  to  your  lordships, 
.  which  is  not  directly  before  the  House,  but  is 
of  some  consequence  to  mv  character,  and  it 
will  not  take  the  House  half  a  minute.    I 


'  ^  *  Bver  lince  Ike  foniidatioD  of  the  Hospital,  the 
Keetemat  governmeDt  went  in  taoceHion  lo  the 
ctpteiu  «r  tfce  Honpital,  without  %bj  iatereit,  one 
iMuoe  only  esoepled,  in  the  penon  of  lievlamii- 
loreraorBdlfi.     Orig,  Ed, 


have  seen  a  pubUcation,  in  which  arc  these 
words;  "  To  these  charges  (after  stating 
some)  no  other  answer  is  thought  necessary 
than  a  little  advice  to  the  Catholic  author  of 
that  weak,  yet  insidious  answer.'*  I  beg 
leave  to  mention,  that  I  had  not,  directly  nor 
indirectlv,  the  least  hand  in  that  publication 
that  is  alluded  to  in  that  book. 

.  You  said,  the  first  time  you  heard  about 
Greenwich  ^Hospital  was,  when  a  gentleman 
distinguished  hiin.self  so  much  at  the  bar ; 
yet  you  afterwards  said,  you  heard  it  men- 
tion^ below  the  bar  of  this  House  at  a  former 
sessions ;  I  wish  you  would  for  your  own  sake 
set  that  right  P — ^I  will  endeavour  to  explain 
it ;  I  am  sure  the  House  will  not  take  aavan- 
tage  of  any  thing  I  say ;  I  beg  to  mention  to 
the  House,  that  my  recollection  only  served 
when  I  said  it,  (it  is  in  the  minutes,  Uierefore 
the  House  can  rccmr  to  them  to  know  whe- 
ther I  am  wrong),  when  I  mentioned  that  it 
was  to  ascertain,  whether  at  the  particular 
point  of  time  in  which  that  conversation  arose 
between  Mr.  Murphy  and  myself,  it  was  with 
any  design  of  mine,  or  arose  accidentally ;  I 
then  mentioned,  as  the  case  certainly  was,  that 
the  first  that  I  knew  of  an^  thine  then  going 
on,  was  from  the  conversation  of  Mr.  Murphy, 
and  from  Uie  general  applause  which  the 
exertion  and  abihtiesof  the  gentleman  alluded 
to  had  met  with;  I  knew  from  what  I  hap- 
pened to  have  over-heard  here,  that  there 
was  some  general  idea  of  a  particular  enquiry 
into  the  management  of  Greenwich  Hospital ; 
but  lord  Sandwich,  nor  no  other  person,  had 
spoken  to  me  on  the  subject.  I  was  totally 
a  stranger  to  the  meetings  of  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital, and  to  wluit  had  passed  at  the  boards  of 
council  there ;  I  was  perfectly  a  stranger  to 
it,  till  what  I  heard  from  the  popular  conver- 
sation of  the  day.         [Mr.  Butler  withdrew.] 

Arthur  Murphy ^  esq.  called  in. 

Mr.  Murphy,  My  lords,  I  have  the  honour 
of  attending  your  lordships,  in  obedience  to  an 
order  that  1  nave  received,  calling  upon  me  to 
give  evidence  in  rektion  to  the  aSairs  and  the 
government  of  Greenwich  Hospital. 

My  lords,  from  the. situation  that  I  stood 
in,  in  that  business,  and  from  the  delicacy  of 
the  part  I  acted  in  it,  it  is  impossible  for  me 
to  come  to  your  lordships*  bar,  without  feel- 
ing extreme  difficulties;  those  difficulties 
amount  in  my  mind  to  a  doubt,  and  a  stroiig 
one,  whether  in  point  of  law,  or  at  least  in 
point  of  honour,  I  ought  to  be  examined  at 
all.  My  lords,  I  beg  leave  to  state  to^our 
lordships,  out  of  what  facts  my  doubts  arise ; 
I  was  counsel  for  captain  Baillie;  I  never 
knew  captain  BailUe,  till  I  was  applied  to  by 
him  to  be  one  of  his  counsel ;  I  know  no- 
thing of  the  affairs  of  the  Hospital,  or  of  the 
government  of  it,  but  what  I  learned  fit>m 
the  brief  that  I  held  in  that  cause ;  it  cannot 
be  the  intention  to  examine  me  to  the  eon- 
tents  of  the  brief;  I  understand  that  I  am  to 
be  examined  to  the  subject  of  negociation  car- 


S59] 


IS  GEORGE  m.         The  Cote  tfCofiam  Thomm  BaiBie;        [960 


ried  on  by  mey  set  on  foot  by  me,  bena  by 
me,  and  carrier  on  with  the  priTity  aiul  con- 
sent of  captain  Baillie.  My  lords,  I  did  in 
the  course  of  the  business,  all  that  lay  within 
the  reach  of  my  poor  abilities  for  captain 
Baillie,  both  when  the  business  was  on  in  the 
court  of  Kin^s-bench,  and  in  all  the  prepara^ 
tory  steps  to  it ;  I  was  not  c<mtent  with  that, 
I  cdntmcted  veiy  good  wishes  in  favour  of 
captain  Baillie,  whom  I  had  never  known 
till  I  knew  him  as  my  client;  I  knew  his 
brother  upon  a  former  occasion,  and  had  a 
very  great  respect  for  him,  thence  arose  the 
ffood  wishes  I  felt  for  him  before  the  term; 
ois  business  was  on  in  November  term. 

Q.  You  will  pleaseto  confine  yourself  to  what 
your  objections  are  to  being  sworn,  but  dont 
go  into  any  detail  of  the  business  without  being 
awom? — A,  I  meant  no  otherwise  than  to 
give  an  account  of  the  part  I  acted,  previously 
to  any  part  of  the  conversation  or  business  I 
am  called  here  upon ;  I  will  cut  it  short  then, 
and  the  question  I  would  submit  to  your  lord- 
ships 18— In  the  first  place,  if  I  am  called 
here  by  any  body  but  captain  Baillie,  the 
law,  I  take  to  be  clear,  that  a  coimsel  is  not 
to  be  examined  to  the  secrets  of  his  client. — 
My  lords,  if  I  am  called  by  captain  Baillie,  or 
if  captain  Baillie  renounces  the  privile^ 
«whicn  the  law  gives  him,  then  my  question  is 
•perhaps  a  new  one,  but  it  is  of  great  impor- 
tance to  the  public. 

The  question  is,  whether  where  a  counsel 
has  earned  on  a  negociation  with  the  privity 
pf  his  client,  and  in  consequence  of  that  has 
had  a  confidential  conversation  with  the  op- 
posite party,  whether  that  counsel  is  liable  0 
be  called  upion  by  his  own  client,  to  reveal  the 
secrets  that  he  may  have  learned  in  confi- 
dence. I  apprehend  your  lordships  will  not 
^dure  such  a!  practice.  For  the  firat  ob- 
servation that  occurs  to  me  upon  it  is  this : 
the  client  may  say,  my  counsel  shall  nego- 
xiate;  if  he  succeeds,  well  and  good,  if  not, 
•he  may  draw  the  secrets  firom  the  other  side, 
-and  then  come  and  give  it  in  evidence. 

I  may  be  told  that  both  parties  may  con- 
sent to  this;  but  on  behalf  of  myself,  and 
every  gentleman  at  the  bar,  I  beg  leave  to 
make  this  objection  to  it ;  whatever  wish  I 
had  for  captain  Baillie,  if  I  eould  have  fore- 
seen this  day,  I  would  have  suppressed  it,  and 
would  not  have  cone  out  of  my  ehamber,  or 
seen  an v body;  f  should  have  told  him,  I  had 
made  the  best  or  worst  speech,  if  it  might 
be  so. 

If  the  attending  a  conversation  is  to  make 
n)e  a  witness,  it  mieht  as  well  be  at  New- 
icastle-upon-Tyne  asnere ;  and  there  is  not  a 
gentleman  at  the  bar,  if  he  is  told,  wherever 
he  hazards  himself  in  a  negociation  for  his 
client,  he  is  to  be  ailled  upon  as  a  witness,  to 
tell  what  passed  in  confidence  in  secrecy. 
>  there  is  not  a  sentleman  at  the  bar  that  will 
hazard  himself;  and  I  beg  to  add,  that  all 
•counsel  can  often  do  more  good  out  of  court, 
^an  ^n  court;  and  for  my  own  part,  as  I 


have  said  before,  if  I  could  have  Ibreseen  tliii 
day,  I  should  not  have  been  a  negocklor  fo 
any  man.  I  wish  to  have  it  understood,  not 
only  for  the  sake  ot  a  noble  lord  in  yaor 
House,  whom  I  may  say  I  drew  into  a  tmg^ 
ciation,  I  desire  it  to  be  understood,  in  justtc* 
to  myself,  and  my  own  character,  that  I  will 
n^^ociate  with  no  man  to  betray  htm,  if  it  was 
the  lowest  man  in  the  kingdom.  I  vrmM, 
not  have  it  said  of  me,  that  the  lowest  noaa 
in  the. kingdom,  if  he  talks  to  me  in  coofi* 
denoe,  shall  be  a  sufierer  by  it;  and  there- 
fore, my  lords,  I  am  now  in  the  place  where 
the  ties  of  honour  will  be  best  relt  and  best 
understood.  When  I  related  to  captain  Bail- 
lie  a  conversation  I  had  with  a  noble  toni 
Qow  in  your  House,  it  was  under  an  expim 
stipulation,  that  my  name  shouU  never  \m 
mentioned.     This,  my  lords,  I  am  ready  to 

S've  upon  oath ;  and  therefore,  as  I  am  wfaere 
le  ties  of  honour  will  be  best  felt,  I  submit 
it  to  your  lordships,  whether  I  oum  ta  oyeA 
my  mouth  upon  this  subject.  My  latdM^  I 
beg  to  add  one  word  more ;  I  make  no  olimc* 
tion  from  a  wish  or  bias  in  fcvour  of  einer 
of  the  parties,  my  objection  is  on  aoDoottl  of 
the  extreme  delicacy  of  my  situation^  slandiD^ 
there  as  counsel;  I  know  nothinsot the  mlU 
ter,  but  lihaX  I  knew  from  my  nrie^  and  tm 
counsel ;  I  had  a  conversatioa  with  the  mAAa 
lord  which  I  wish  to  be  silent  about  for  c^y«r. 
The  Barl  of  Sandmkk,  Ifa&y  partaof  Ife. 
Murphy's  delicsojr  ptoceedi  from  the  doub^ 
whether  I  wi^  hon  to  be  heard,  i  will  readily 
reUeve  hnn  from  that  difficulty ;  I  have  that 
opinion  of  Mr.  Murphy's  honour;  I  had  a 
transaction  with  him  in  a  public  matter  once; 
I  found  hiin  a  man  of  honour ;  and  there  abe  ^ 
not  many  people,  perhaps,,  that  I  would  iun^ 
seen  upon  a  business  of  that  kind,  except  tfaait 
gentleman ;  I  mean  persons  that  mig^t  have 
been  employed ;  but  he  has  my  entire  con- 
sent, my  wish,  and  desire,  tint  he  wcniM  in. 
form  tiie  House  of  eveiy  thin^  that  he  know* 
relative  to  that  matter ;  and  it  is  proper  for 
me  to  add  one  circumstance,  that  I  tnink'  i| 
will  be  an  hardship  upon  me,  if  he  does  not 
say  all  he  knows,  because  there  has  been  one 
gentleman  of  the  law  already  examined ;  ani 
Uiough  I  know  he  is  a  man  of  too  mud»  he* 
nour,  I  flatter  myself  every  body  that  knowa 
him,  must  know  he  is  incapable  of  saying  any 
thing  but  what  is  strictly  true :  yet  it  will  be 
a  very  aukvraird  transaction,  if^  my  lawjfer  ia 
exammed,  and  the  lawyer  on  the  other  nde  ia 
not  examined ;  I  wish  that  this  matter  mi^ 
CO  clearly  and  fully  into  the  world,  that  the 
lawyer  employed  on  one  side,  and  ibt  lawyer 
employed  on  the  other  side,  nve  ^  House 
every  mfoimation  that  they  nad  it  in  their 
power  to  give ;  and  for  these  reasons,  I  de 
most  sincerely  desire  and  request  of  Mr.  Mur- 
phy, that  he  would  submit  te  be  examined, 
1  do  alscK  as  a  matter  of  justice,  end  as  e 
•matter  of^respect  due  to  this  House,  caU  vpoe 
captain  B^iOie  to  make  faiiii  the 
ques|. 


$Bt]        ftip$eling  ih€  Ro^  IhipUai  M  GreemBtch.         A.  D«  1778. 


[9M 


BIr.  Uurpk^.  My  lotfds,  my  principal 
MB  for  trMibhng  your  lordship*  with  any  dif- 
ficuhy  of  mine,  ¥ras,  that  I  do  conceive  every 
nutleoian  at  the  bur  is  concerned  in  it;  for 
I  do  beg  leave  to  say  to  your  lorddiiM,  that 
no  gentleman  at  the  bar  will  haEard  nimself 
in  n^odations  or  comproroiaes,  if  it  be  once 
mderstood  that  they  are  liable  to  be  called 
«^n  to  disdose  what  passes  in  aecret  neso- 
oations,  in  ftur  and  honest  compromises  be- 
tween parties ;  if  it  be  once  established  as  a 
weoedenty  I  ^  conceive  the  public  will  suffer 
uwh;  for  no  gentleman  at  me  bar^  as  I  said 
already,  would  leave  himself  to  be  liable  to  be 
called  liipon  by  it.  It  might  happen  I  might 
ke  called  upon  at  the  time  I  might  be  upon 
mf  drouit.  If  it  is  established  here,  ttiat 
gcatlemen  at  the  bar  are  liable  to  be  called 
ypan,  it  wiU  be  of  very  pernicious  tendency ; 
hat  if  it  is  not  understood  to  be  compulsory 
upon  me ;  if  it  is  not  understood  I  am  com- 
•ened  %o  speak,  th^re  is  a  word  has  dropped 
mNH  the  lioble  lord,  that  strikes  me  a^  mat 
tel.  His  lordship  says  he  shall  conmoter  it< 
m  ati  haidship.  I  consider  myself  as  stand- 
ing a  BuddUe  man,  counsel  for  both.  The 
hnoour  of  both  b  in  my  hands^  therefore  I 
profaw  myself  ready,  if  it  is  not  understood 
i»  be  compulsory  upon  me.  and  upon  the  rest 
of  the  gentlemen  ait  the  oar.  I  make  this 
djection,  in  order  to  have  the  decision  of  this 
p^at  assembly.  To  have  it  understood, 
whether  gentlemen  at  the  bar  are  compelled 
i»  be  cal&l  upon.  If  it  is  understooa  they 
are  not,  I  shaal  make  no  objection  to  ^ve  my 


Captain  BailUe,  I  beg  to  say  a  few  words. 
It  is  certainly  a  misfortune  to  me,  that  I  am 
not  able  to  follow  all  the  oratory  and  rhetoric 
of  Mr.  Murphy;  but  as  I  told  your  lordships 
before,  I  sa^r  again.  I  have  no  secret ;  I  have 
&Ben  a  victim  to  the  resentment  of  lord  Sand- 
wich, and  to  various  intrigues  one  way  or 
oAer;  and  as  I  have  no  secrets,  I  wbh  that 
tile  whole  of  the  transactions  of  Greenwich 
Hospital  may  be  probed  to  the  bottom.  I 
wish  Mr.  Muiphy  to  be  examined,  and  I  hope 
lie  will  prove  Cdmsetf  a  man  of  honour. 

Mr.  Murphy  called  to  the  bar  again. 

Yon  say  you  speak  on  behalf  of  yourself 
and  of  the  whole  profession ;  is  that  literally 
so?  Has  there  been  any  meeting  of  the  pro- 
fession?— ^I  speak  only  from  my  own  feelinj^, 
■yown  ideas  upon  the  subject,  and  a  few 
mtiemen  at  the  bar  I  had  talked  with,  and 
tii^  all  approve  of  the  objection  i  have 
made.  I  certunly  have  no  commission  from 
the  bar. 

Mr.  Murphf  sworn. 

Were  you  present  at  any  ocmversation  be- 
fween  iora  Sandwich  and  Mr.  Butler,  and  Mr. 
Cook&  upon  the  subject  of  captain  Baillie  ? — 
I  shall  beg  to  be  in  your  lordsnips' judgment, 
whether  you  would  have  this  matter  come 
<M  ptece-meal,  as  questions  ipay  occur,  or 


whether  I  sh^  relate  the  whole  lithematter 
happened  } 

The  House  ordered  Mr.  Murphy  to  give  a 
narrative  of  the  transaction. 

Mr.  Murnhf,  Having  been  counsel  fbf 
captain  Baillie  some  time  in  the  month  of 
December  last,  what  day  of  the  month  I  d5 
not  know,  but  it  was  of  a  Friday ;  having  at  * 
tempted  at  that  time,  with  thiee  or  four  <fiflb« 
rent  gentlemen,  to  set  on  foot  a  negociatioQ 
in  &vour  of  captain  Baillie ;  and,  as  I  under- 
stood, under  his  authority,  it  did  fall  in  my 
way,  by  mere  accident,  to  have  a  conversa* 
tion  with  Mr.  Butler  at  the  coffee-house  in 
Iincoln'»4nn ;  I  went  in  there,  (having  come 
a  little  way  that  morning  from  the  country) 
about  eleven  o'clock,  by  mere  chance.  Z 
found  the  onl  v  gentleman  in  the  room  was 
Mr.  Butler,  whom  i  knew  as  a  gentkman  in 
tibe  inn ;  and  my  acquaintance  with  Mr.  Butler 
extended  no  farther  than  just  an  acquaintance 
in  lincoln's-inn ;  and  as  far  as  my  acquaint- 
ance went^  a  very  respectable  acquaintance  I 
thought  him.  I  sat  down  with  him ;  a  con^ 
versation  arose  upon  the  topics  of  tiie  day  ; 
at  last  Greenwich  Hospital  was  mentioned^ 
and  I  believe  by  him.  I  think  he  adced  me 
what  I  thought  of  the  af&drs  of  Oreenwicli 
Hospital ;  I  told  him  that  I  had  been  counsel, 
and  that  I  had  certain  impressions  upon  ny 
mind,  contracted  and  conceived  at  the  Ume  I 
was  counsel.  I  told  him  veiy  freely  my 
mind ;  I  told  him  that  I  had  attempted  be- 
fore the  tetm,  in  the  term,  (the  November 
term  I  speak  of)  and  after  the  term,  witii 
three  dinerent  jgentlemen,  to  set  on  ^foot  n 
negodation  with  lord  Sandwich.  The  first 
attempt  that  I  made  was  with  Mr.  Oarrick, 
in  the  latter  end  of  October;  I  went  to 
Hampton  to  him ;  I  found  with  him  a  gen« 
tleman  that  I  never  was  in  company  with  bo* 
fore,^Dr.  Madan;  I  did  not  hesitat^  Dr.  Ma* 
dan  beii^  present,  about  the  sidiject;  I 
opened  my  mind  to  him.  and  I  told  mm,  that 
I  had  been  reading  affiaavits  that  were  volu- 
minous ;  and  that  it  would  relieve  me  from  a 
great  dc»l  of  difficulty,  having  been  asked  to 
read  200  brief  sheets  of  affi&vits  drawn  by' 
captain  Baillie  himself,  if  I  could  be  relieved 
from  that,  it  would  be  a  great  pleasure  to  me  j 
I  said,  Mr.  Garriek,  you  can  do  that  favour, 
if  you  will  only  tell  lord  Sandwich,  that  h(o 
has  offered  to  resign  his  office  of  lieutenant 

governor,  if  an  equivalent  provision  should 
e  made  for  him. 

When  was  this  conversation  ^— The  latter 
end  of  October. 

Then  that  relates  to  the  propotel  sworn  to 
in  captain  Baillie's  affidavit*  ? — ^He  swore  iit 
his  affidavit,  that  he  had  made  thsft  offer 
several  times.  In  short,  without  troiibling 
your  lordsdbips  any  more  with  the 


*  Rdatfls  to  captain  Baillie'i  a^ilarit  sworn  to 
ia  the  K.iag't-beiioh,  wliioli  ooold  ba  no  Moret. 
Qrig.Sd, 


IS  <tBORG£  IIL  The  Que  of  Captain  Thamoi  BaMef         p64 

one  single  word  with  him,  or  being  in  his 
company  in  an^  place  whatever;  so  thai 
upon  these  accidental  meetings,  relative  to 
lord  Hali&x's  business,  I  did  not  ground  any 
pretensions  of  acquaintance ;  therefore,  I  did 
not  think  of  going  near  lord  Sandwich  about 
the  business ;  the  term  being  over,  and  the 
rule  discharged  with  costs,  I  did  attempt  it  in 
another  way^  with  a  gentleman  in  lincoln  V 
inn,  whom  1  knew  to  be  intimate  with  lord 
Sandwich ;  I  hope  I  may  name  him  without 
involving  him  as  a  witness ;  Mr.  Brown ;  I 
did  speak  to  him  several  times,  and  tell  him 
my  mind  most  freely ;  all  I  learned  from  him 
was,  that  he  Irad  reported  my  conversation  to 
lord  Sandwich;  it  came  to  nothing;  only 
that  lord  Sandwich  expressed  himself  in  dvil 
terms  with  respect  to  me.  When  I  went  into 
tha  coffee-house  in  Lincoln's-inn,  I  did  not 
know  that  Mr.  Butler  was  at  all  acquainted 
with  the  business ;  when  the  Greenwich  bu- 
sjhess  became  the  subject  of  conversation,  I 
did  then,  most  freelv,  tell  him  my  mind ;  and 
what  had  passed ;  the  attempt  with  Mr.  Gar- 
lick ;  and  so  on.  I  told  Mr.  Butler,  I  wished, 
very  much,  that  somebody  virould  sugg^t  to 
my  lord  Sandwich,  that  whatever  his  ideas 
mieht  be,  or  whatever  various  people  might 
tell  him  upon  the  subject,  that  still  mankind 
might  think,  if  captain  Baillie's  ruin  was 
aimed  at,  if  he  was  to  be  discharged  at  his 
time  of  life,  and  afler  a  number  of  vears  in 
the  service,  and  swearing,  as  he  dia,  in  the 
court  of  King'fr-bench,  that  he  was  ruptured 
on  both  sides,  that  mankind  would  say,  if  his 
ruin  was  aimed  at,  it  would  be  cruel ;  on  the 
other  hand,  if  lord  Sandwich  felt  himself  act- 
ing above  those  little  resentments  whidi 
actuated  many  of  mankind,  that  the  world 
would  say,  it  would  be  acting  very  noble 
not  to  aim  at  his  ruin ;  and  therefore  I  said 
it  would  be  noble;  on  the  part  of  lord 
Sandwich;  if  he  would  embrace' Mr.  BailliCs 
proDosals,  upon  an  adej^uate  provision.  Mr. 
BuUer  seemed  struck  with  this ;  he  told  me 
that  he  was  employed  relative  to  the  affiurs 
of  the  Hospital ;  that  he  had  prepared  a  book^ 
since  printed,  (not  then  printed)  in  two  co- 
lumns, which  I  dare  say  many  of  your  lord- 
ships have  seen ;  he  told  me  he  would  shew 
it  me,  whenever  I  pleased,  and,  I  believe,  did 
shew  it  me  a  day  or  two  after.  Finding  he 
was  emploved,  it  struck  me;  I  paused  upon 
it;  I  considered,  in  my  own  mina,  whether  I 
should  go  farther  with  him ;  finding  he  wm 
acquainted,  and  employed,  I  did  go  as  far  as  I 
could,  in  endmvouring  to  promote  those  sort 
of  complaints  in  favour  of  captain  Baillie ;  I 
conceived  myself  authorized  to  do  it,  by  the 

general  authority  Mr.  Bearcrofi  and  myself 
ad  before  the  term  began,*  and  was  never 


of  what  passed  between  Mr.  Gramck  and  me, 
he  did  undertake  that  he  would  mention  to 
iord  Sandwich,  whether  he  did  or  did  not,  I 
never  learned  from  Mr.  Garrick,  because  I 
"have  been  so  unfortunate  as  never  to  have 
seen  him  since.  In  the  term  every  body 
knows  what  passed,  the  rule  was  dischar^d 
with  costs;  I  shoukl  have  said,  that  a  Dr. 
Shepherd,  of  Cambridge,  caUed  upon  me  be- 
fore it  came  on  in  the  King's-bench ;  and 
knowing  that  he  was  well  acquainted  with 
lord  Sandwich,  I  told  him  the  same  story  I 
bad  told  Mr.  Garrick,  and  wished  the  same 
proposition  to  take  place.  Nothing  came  of 
that,  the  business  came  on  in  the  court  of 
KingVbench.  I  should  have  said  I  told  cap- 
tain Baillie  what  I  had  said  to  Mr.  Garrick 
and  Dr.  Shepherd ;  as  well  as  I  recollect,  he 
'yras  in  the  next  room,  when  Dr.  Shepherd 
was  with  me  in  my  chambers.  As  soon  as 
Dr.  Shepherd  was  gone,  I  told  captain  Baillie 
what  hsul  passed,  and  that  I  was  aiming  at  a 
negociation.  Captain  Baillie  had  given  to  Mr. 
Bearcroft,  my  leader  in  the  Kme's-bench, 
and  to  me,  authority  to  neeociate  tor  him  to 
that  effect,  and  saving  his  nonour,  which  we 
told  him  we  should  be  certainly  very  care- 
till  of. 

On  what  day  did  you  tell  captain  Baillie 
that  ?^The  beginning  of  Novemoer  term ;  I 
cannot  say  the  day;  it  was  before  the  busi- 
ness came  on  in  the  court  of  Kins's-bench ; 
for  Dr.  Shepherd  came  to  ask  wheui^  a  new 
trial  should  be  moved  for  in  the  Kine's-bench, 
in  a  cause  he  had  been  conc^ned  in;  by 
which  I  know  it  must  have  been  at  the  be- 
innajng  c^.the  term ;  because  by  the  rule  of 
ue  court  new  trials  must  be  moved  for  within 
the  first  four  davs  of  the  term ;  the  business 
coming  on  in  the  King's-bench,  hearing  no 
more  of  this  affair,  and  not  having  myself  the 
honour  of  knowing  lord  Sandwich  sufficiently, 
to  think  at  all  of  going  near  him  upon  the 
subject ;  for  with  regard  to  loid  Sandwich,  I 
think  it  necessary  to  mention,  that  I  can 
hardly  assume  the  word  acquaintance.  In 
the  year  1768,  I  think  it  was,  there  was  a 
business  of  lord  Halifax  depending ;  a  great 
many  gentlemen  and  noblemen  of  conse- 
quence mterested  themselves  in  what  belong- 
ed to  lord  Halifax ;  I  had  the  honour.of  hav- 
ing some  degree  of  lord  Halifax's  confidence 
in  that  business ;  we  had  several  dinners  at 
the  Star  and  Garter,  in  Pall-Mali ;  and  two  or 
three  at  Hampton ;  I  think  I  had  the  honour 
of  being  in  company  with  lord  Sandwich 
twice  in  Pall-Mail,  and  once  at  Hampton; 
that  was  in  the  year  1768.  In  the  year  1769, 
J  thixik,  (but  I  loiow  it  was  in  the  year  that 
Mr.  Brown,  of  Hampton,  was  sheriff  of  Hun- 
tingdon) ;  he  being  sheriff  in  1769,  he  being 
to  sup  at  Hinchinbroke,  I  had  the  nonour  of 
being  invited  to  sup  there ;  and  understood  I 
was  to  meet  with  Mr.  Brown;  from  that 
hour,  to  the  time  that  I  had  the  honour  of 
seeing  lord  Sandwich  upon  captain  Baillie's 
Imsiness,  I  never  had  the  honour  of  changing 


*  Whilst  dx  infomatlons,  for  %  libel,  with  grcal 
weiffht  of  powtf,  wore  hanging  orer  ctptua  BuUi^ 
utdliii  d6ttr«olioD  tJirMleiMd,  it  wis  natonl  eiioaci 
for  him  to  wish  to  aiMXMBmodftto  with  lord  Saadwioii, 
in  a  contest  so  oneqaal;  bai  «fler  all  the  partist 


965]         re^pecHtig  the  Ro^  Hotptal  at  Oreemdch.        A.  D.  iTlS. 


Cse* 


tevoked  in  any  of  the  conversations  we  had 
iqwn  the  subject;  he  called  upon  me  Uiree  or 
four  times  a  week  may  be ;  it  Was  never  re- 
voked at  all ;  tiierefore  I  did  conceive  myself 
to  have  authoritv  to  make  the  proportion,  on 
hb  behalfy  that  he  should  resini,  and  have  an 
equivalent  provision.     Mr.  Butler  said,  he 
would  mention  it  to  my  lord  Sandwich,  and 
would  contrive  to  see  him  that  day.    I  begged 
of  Mr.  BuUer  to  take  care  not  to  represent 
me  as  intiudmg  myself  too  much ;  I  tmd  him 
I  had  attempted  it  with  other  people ;   how- 
ever, I  told  hun  I  did  understand  from  one  gen- 
tieman  that  lord  Sandwich  had  expressed  him> 
self  with  civil  terms  with  regsud  to  me ;  and, 
therefore,  I  was  not  much  afraid  of  his  repre- 
senting  my  conversation;   accordinglv   we 
parted;  he  undertaking,  as  I  understood,  that 
he  would  see  lord  Sanc^ich  upon  the  subject 
The  next  morning,  a  Saturday  morning,  he 
caUed  upon  me,  about  eleven-  o'clock;    he 
shewed  me  a  littie  abstract  of  a  letter  (three 
lines  of  bis  own  writing)  purporting  to  be  a 
letter,,  to  inform  lord  Sanawich  that  he  had 
some  conversation  to  communicate  to  him; 
he  shewed  me  an  answer  of  three  lines  from 
lord  Sandwich ;  he  then  told  me  he  had  been 
with  lord  Sandwich,  and  did  not  find  his  lord- 
ship in  a  disposition  to  act  crueUy,  or  with 
revenge;  not  in  that  disposition  at  all :  I  had 
particularly  said,  that  the  ruining  of  him 
would  be,  perhaps,  by  the  world  called  the 
mark  of  a  litUe  mind ;  the  letting  the  man 
down,  without  ruinii^  him,  if  he  was  to  be 
removed  from  the  Hospital,  the  giving  him  a 
provi^on,  would  be  the  mark  of  a  great  mind. 
llr.  l^itler  said,  his  lordship  said  he  was  willr 
ing  to  shew  the  world  he  did  not  want  to  act 
with  a  littie  mind.    I  said  I  aihould  be  pleased 
if  I  could  contribute  to  effect  this  business ; 
he  asked  me  if  I  was  serious  in  the  proposi- 
tion; I  sud,  certainly;  that  I  conceived  I  had 
an  authority.    Is  captain  BailHe  serious  in  it? 
I  said,  I  think  I  can  see  him  this  day,  and  will 
tell  you.    I  sent  to  him  as  soon  as  Mr.  Butler 
went ;  I  saw  him  and  his  brother  immediately. 
at  my  chambers ;   I  told  them  what  passed 
between  Mr.  Butier  and  me  the  day  before  ; 
how  accidentally  I  met  him;   how  littie  I 
knew,  in  the  beginning  of  the  conversation, 
that!  was  talkmg  wim  an  acquaintance  ot 
iord  Sand[wich;  how  I  had  pushed  it,  when  I 
knew  he  was ;  and  that  it  ended,  in  short,  in 
hb  undertaking  to  go  )o  him ;   now  he  has 
been  with  lord  Sandwich,  and  I  find  lord  Sand- 
wich is  not  so  vindictive  against  you  as  j^ou 
imagine.    Do  you  approve  of  the  proposition 
I  have  made  ?    Both  of  them  did.    Do  you 


irere  defeated,  and  the  nereral  nilcs  discharged,  and 
diichargcd  with  co»ts,  (which  seldom  happens  in  the 
Gonrt  of  King's-benoh)  to  the  general  satisfaotioii  of 
aa  tadigaant  aodienoe,  and  captain  BailUe's  affairs 
weariag  a  very  diflforent  aspeot,  he  then  had  no  idea 
of  pnpoaag  aa  aooomaiodatioii,  thoagh  he  was  wilt- 
iag  to  lirteii  to  any  thai  nuKht  bo  made  on  the  part 
oriei4  Sudwich.     Ori^&L 


choose  I  should  go  on  with  it?    (I  cannot  h4 
supposed  to  be  speaking  to  exact  words,  when 
I  say  this.)    Do  you  choose  to  go  on  with  it  f 
Yes.    Then  I  have  a  question  to  ask  you,  capt 
Baillie :  Can  you  judge  of  any  mode  in  which 
you  can  have  this  provision,  without  beine 
appointed  to  a  public  office  ?  For  I  am  desirea 
to  tell  you,  lord  Sandwich  will  not  appoint 
you  to  a  public  office,  because  the  same  thing 
will  happen,  as  he  thinks,  wherever  you  go ; 
and,  therefore,  if  it  can  be  done,  without  ap- 
pointing you  to  a  pubUc  office,  I  understand, 
from  Iii&.  Butler,  who  is  just  gone  out  of  my 
chamber,  that  the  noble  lord  fa^  no  objection  - 
to  it.     A  proposal  I  took  down  in  writing ;  I 
don't  know  wnether  it  has  been  mentioned ; 
the  proposal  was,  tiiat  captain  Baillie  conceiv- 
ing that  captain  Kirke  (as  well  as  I  remem- 
ber') who  is  a  commissioner  of  the  victuallings 
ana  would  be  glad  to  become  lieutenant-go* 
vemor  of  the  Hosnital ;  and,  therefore,  says 
captain  Baillie,  if  lord  Sandwich  will  appoint 
my  son-in-law,  I  think,  a  Mr.  Devisme,  com- 
missioner of  the  victualling,  and  let  me  retire 
U|K>n  my  half-pay,  I  then  will  resign,  and  cap* 
tain  Kirke  may  be  appointed  fieutenant-go- 
vernor  of  the  Hospital.    I  took  that  down  in 
writing,  I  thought  proper  to  propose  myself; 
and  it  was  added  to  it,  upon  my  suggestion, 
that  captain  Baillie  should  give  up  aU  papers, 
pamphlets,  all  printed  cases,  of  whatever  de- 
nonunation,  remaining  in  his  hands,  in  order 
to  shew  a  disposition  to  act  fair,  and  retire,  in 
peace  and  quietness,  from  the  Hospital.  That 
was  added  to  it.     Mr.  Butier,  about  three  or 
four  o'clock,  sent  in  his  name ;  I  begged  cap- 
tain Baillie  and  his  brother  to  step  into  ano- 
ther room ;  they  did ;   Mr.  Butier  came  in ; 
my  paper  was  interlined  and  blotted ;  I  read 
to  him  from  it ;  I  told  him  that  was  the  pro- 
position ;   he  undertook  to  see  lord  Sandwich 
upon  it;  and  we  parted.    When  he  was  eone, 
I  told  captain  BjEullie  what  had  p^issed  be- 
tween Mi^.  Butier  and  me ;  and  so  it  ended 
for  that  day.    On  Monday  following,  I  hs^ 
pened  to  be  a  littie  way  out  of  town,  I  think 
at  Mr.  Thrale'satStretham;  there  I  received 
a  letter  fix>m  Mr.  Butier,  in  the  evenine,  in- 
forming me,  that  he  had  seen  lord  Sanawich 
that  very  day,  and  that  be  found  him  still  in 
the  same  dispositk>n;   and  he  believed  my 
proposition  would  take  place;  that  if  it  suited 
me,  lord  Sandwich  would  be  glad  to  see  me 
the  next  day,  at  the  Admiralty;  I  came  to 
town  thfe  next  day,  Tuesday ;  I  went  with  Mr. 
Butier  to  the  Admiralty ;  we  were  not  there 
two  minutes  before  we  were  shewn  up  stairs 
to  my  lord  Sandwich ;  the  noble  lord's  first 
words  were,  I  am  willine  to  converse  with 
you,  Mr.  Murphy,  imon  this  subject,  because 
I  know,  or  believe,  (1  don't  know  which)  that 
you  are  a  man  of  honour. 

My  lords,  it  is  from  those  words  that  my 
pain  arises ;  I  did  hope,  after  hearing  those 
words,  that  I  never  should  be  called  upon  to 
say  a  word  upoiu  the  subject ;  however,  iny 
lordS;  the  conversation  then  went  on ;  ioid 


867] 


18  OEOBGE  III.         The  Case  of  Captain  Thmas 


[36S 


^ndwich  stidy  that  the  unfortuiiate  disfuieK* 
iMrtweeD  the  two  a4imirals  had  kept  the  Ad- 
miralty in  a  very  great  hurrv,  and  in  a  few 
puDiites  he  must  attend  the  board.  I  think  I 
«m  going  to  speak  very  distinctly  to  thq  words, 
for  my  memory  has  been  well  refreshed  upon 
the  80b|ect>  having  had  this  order  so  long. 
Ms  lord  Sandwich  told  me  then,  seeing  there 
Is  but  little  time  to  lose,  and  he  must  go  to  a 
board ;  he  then  said.  Sir,  we  will  at  once  come 
to  the  subject  of  captain  Baillie's  commission ; 
the  al^rs  of  the  Hospital  are  come  to  this 
nassy  that  he  must  cuit  it ;  I  cannot  act  with 
film  mvself ;  the  oirectors  cannot  act  with 
bim;  the  directors  have  presented  a  new  me- 
morud ;  and  I  have  no  hesitation  in  sayine, 
that  if  I  must  quarrel  with  them,  or  with 
him,  he  is  the  man  I  shall  quarrel  with;  if 
captain  Baillie  imacines  that  he  is  to  bid  me 
defiance,  he  will  fina  me  extremely  firm,  and 
I  shall  most  certainly  dismiss  him  upon  the 
ETound  of  the  report  for  misbehaviour ;  if  I  do 
Ssmiss  upon  that  ground,  I  shall  dbmiss  him 
without  tninkins  myself  called  upon  ever  to 
trouble  my  head  about  him  again ;  his  place 
maybe,  I  think  he  said,  I  heara  you  estimate 
it  in  the  KingVbench  at  600L  a  year.  I  re- 
inember  being  asked  by  the  Coiut  what  the 
value  of  his  office  was,  and  I  did  say  I  un- 
derstodd  the  salary  was  400/.  a  year,  and 
that  the  advantage  of  apartments^  coals, 
candles,  beer,  and  whatever  other  thmgs  are 
there,  might  reasonably  enough  be  estimated 
at  too/,  a  year  more,  therefore,  I  believe,  I 
said  in  the  King's-bench  that  the  office  was 
worth  600/.  a  7ear;  I  believe  lord  Sandwidi 
said  he  would  not  enter  into  conversation 
about  it,  that  it  mi^ht  be  so;  but  I  know, 
says  he,  if  a  man  loses  600/.  a  year,  and  has 
no  other  fortune,  he  must  be  distressed ;  I 
coidd  chai|[e  him  with  ingratitude;  I  do  not 
wish  to  do  It ;  if  he  is  dismissed,  it  may  be 
•aid  to  be  cruel  and  vindictive ;  but,  tKank 
God,  I  have  no  such  disposition,  and  turning 
to  taie,  he  said,  I  dare  sav  vou  see  I  have  no 
•uch  little  mind ;  he  saia  tne  scheme  that  he 
bad  proposed  of  bus  son  in-law  Devisme, 
«ould  not  take  place ;  that  he  had  seen  cap- 
tain Kirke ;  and  that  he  had  never  thougnt 
of  the  Hospital;  if  that  could  be  done,  I  have 
no  sort  of  objection  for  repeating  it  again ;  I 
do  not  want  to  hear  of  his  distresses^  but  the 
fitctityhe  cannot  stay  in  the  Hospital;  and 
as  to  appointing  him  to  a  public  omce,  I  can- 
not appoint  him  to  a  pubuc  office,  bcMiaiuse  I 
am  very  sure  the  same  thing  will  happen 
again,  said  lord  Sandwich ;  I  don't  want  to 
Upeak  ill  of  him  at  all ;  I  believe  there  may 
be  a  great  deal  of  right,  and  a  neat  deal  of 
wrong  in  captain  Baillie ;  but  mether  right 
or  wrong,  his  passion  in  the  end  will  always 
set  him  wrong;  scmethine  broke  in;  lord 
Sandwich  sai<]^  if  he  is  to  Be  dismissed,  mv 
datflitninatiod  is  never  more  to  trouble  myself 

*»i^— *■■■!  H"       ■■!■■      ■  I      II      I  I  -     I  ■  11        I  11 

*  AllHdiag  to  lh«  admirmU  Kejpfiel  and  PafUser. 


tbout  him;  if  he  resigns  his  office  in  the  way 
you  have  proposed,  I  certainlv  will  aa  soon  aa 
I  know  how  it  can  be  done,  if  he  would  shew 
it  me ;  but  perhaps  I  may  see  it  sooner  mysellL 
but  the  business  of  the  Hospital  cannot  stand 
still,  and  I  cannot  act  with  bun,  and  therefore 
I  shall  be  glad  to  see  you  agun  in  three  or 
four  days:  with  regard  to  the  offer  of  papers 
that  he  makes,  I  do  not  accept  of  it;  ne  has 
nothing  to  give  up.  The  duke  of  lUcbmond 
has  given  notice  of  an  enquiry  in  the  Houso 
of  Lords ;  I  was  not  present  when  he  did  it ; 
I  have  seen  his  grace  since,  and  told  him  I 
was  ready  to  meet  the  enquiry  whenever  he 
makes  it,  and  therefore  I  accapt  of  no  papers, 
I  have  now,  I  think,  related  with  as  much 
precision  as  human  memory  can  supply  a  man 
with  at  the  distance  of  time.  I  thmk  I  have 
related  all  I  heard  from  lord  Sandwich;  a 
gentleman  present,  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke,  did 
say;  that  book*  your  lordship  has  seen  print* 
ea  in  two  columns,  must  be  published;  I 
turned  round  immediatdy,  and  said  Uuit 
would  do  no  good^  publications  will  promota 
apaper  war ;  and  if  there  is  to  be  an  enquiiy, 
it  ou^t  to  be  suppressed ;  and  that  aa  those 
matters  were  in  court,  the  publication  of  them 
out  of  court  might  be  a  lioel,  and  therefore  I 
advised  him  a^nst  it;  in  that  part  of  the 
conversation,  lord  Sandwich  did  not  saj  s 
single  syllable ;  his  lordship  then  got  up,  said ' 
the  affiurs  of  the  Admiralty  called  his  atten- 
tion at  a  board ;  he  should  be  glad  to  see  m» 
in  two  or  three  days'  time;  I  came  away;  I 
am  convinced  in  my  own  mind,  upon  the 
most  exguct  recollection,  that  is  the  whole  sub> 
stance  of  what  passed ;  I  came  away,  and  Udd 
Mr.  Butler  and  Mr.  Cooke  below  stairs,  that 
I  was  extremely  pleased  with  my  negociation^ 
for  I  was  in  hopes  then  it  would  succeed ; 
however,  I  told  Mr.  Butler,  who  went  back 
with  me  to  LincolnVinn,  that  I  should  ap* 
point  captain  Baillie  to  see  me  next  day  at 
twelve,  and  should  be  glad  he  would  be  pre- 
sent. I  did  send  to  captain  Baillie ;  but  cap- 
tain Baillie  came  that  day,  beins  Tuesday, 
when  I  gave  him  a  hint,  but  not  fully  of  the 
nature  of  the  business ;  I  gave  him  a  hint 
that  he  might  act  his  part  as  coolly  as  possible, 
when  he  met  Mr.  Butler  the  next  cu^r  at  li 
o'clock.  The  next  day  captain  Baillie  and  bia 
brother  did  meet  at  my  chambers;  I  tnen,  aa 
if  I  had  not  seen  captain  Baillie,  opened  the 
matter,  and  told  captain  Baillie  that  the  first 
words  out  of  lord  Sandwich's  mouth  to  mo 
were  the  words  I  have  mentioned,  and  there«> 
fore  mentioned  to  him  what  I  felt  a  <^*«"*«mH 
fiofn  him,  that  my  name  shouki  never  be 
called  in  question  about  the  business;  lie 
promised  me  it  siiould  not:  I  told  him  that 
all  negociations  of  the  kind  ever  since  I  hare 
known  any  thing  of  the  bar,  or  had  any  tlun^ 
to  do  with  business  among  gentlemen,  all 


*  11m  rsport  of  loid  Sandwioli't  ooiaatls>, 
nu^^  for  the  pran  by  Mr.  Butl«r«  by4inlavof  le^ 

Sandwich.    OHg.  Ed, 


369]  fhpecting  the  Roi/al  Hospital  at  Greenxvich.         A.  D.  1778. 


[370 


gpciations  of  the  sort  were  considered  as  sa^ 
cred,  and  that  I  never  knew  between  gentle- 
men any  party  take  an  advantage,  if  negocia- 
tions  were  not  successful ;  therefore  I  stipu- 
lated that  my  honour  should  be  taken  care  of, 
and  that  I  never  should  be  mentioned  in  the 
business.  I  then  related  what  passed  between 
my  lord  Sandwich  and  myself;  it  did  not  hap- 
pen to  please  captain  Baillie ;  the  particulars, 
1  suppose,  I  need  not  relate ;  a  great  deal  of 
warmth  broke  out;  I,  at  last,  said  I  could  not 
sit  there,  if  they  behaved  so  intemperately ;  I 
begged  he  would  be  kind  enough  to  meet  next 
day  at  eleven  at  my  chambers,  and  begged  of 
captain  Baillie  to  consider  of  the  matter 
coolly,  to  see  the  rest  of  his  counsel ;  and  I 
sent  to  know  while  they  were  with  me,  w^he- 
ther  Mr-  Beaacroft  was  at  home,  he  was  not ; 
I  sent  to  know  whether  Mr.  Erskine  was  at 
home,  he  was  not. 

Do  not  spare  the  detail ;  that  conversation 
you  say  was  warm  ? — ^The  warmth  was,  cap- 
tain Baillie  would  not  resign  without  an  equi- 
valent provision  before-hand ;  I  told  him  my 
opinion ;  it  was  of  very  little  consequence  to 
kmi,  whether  he  had  it  before  or  after ;  sure 
I  was  he  would  have  it ;  I  asked  him  whether 
he  thought  that  lord  Sandwich  would  choose 
me,  a  man  with  whom  he  had  the  sort  of  ac- 
quaintance I  have  mentioned  to  your  lord- 
ships, that  he  would  single  me  out,  who  I 
hoped,  as  far  as  known  in  the  world,  was 
known  to  be  a  maa  of  spirit;  whether  he 
would  single  me  out  for  that,  and  if  he 
thought  his  lordship  would  deny  it  afterwards ; 
if  he  does,  said  I,  I  will  release  you  from  any 
promise  of  secrecy,  and  stand  forth  and  avow 
It;  I  have  no  doubt  you  will  get  it;  there  is 
no  law  in  it ;  it  is  a  matter  of  prudence ;  con- 
sult your  friends  abodt  it ;  it  was  agreed  they 
should  meet  next  day  at  my  chambers. 

Mention  what  he  said  in  warmth  and  pas- 
sion?— As  my  client,  I  wish  not  to  mention  it. 
Q.  to  captain  Baillie.     Have  you  any  ob- 
jection to  it? 

Captain  Baillie,  I  have  no  secrets  in  the 
vr€fr\a. 

Mr.  Murphy.  To  remember  what  passes 
in  the  hurry  of  desultory  conversation,  all 
those  interruptions  that  violence  and  warmth 
create,  it  is  difficult  to  recollect  every  thing, 
and  I  really  wish  not  to  do  it ;  the  result  of  it 
"was,  he  would  not^  without  having  an  equiva^ 
lent  provision,  resign  his  office,  fh  the  midst 
of  a  great  deal  of  warmth,  he  did  say,  that 
with  regard  to  lord  Sandwich,  if  he  stood 
alone,  without  advisers  of  him,  belonging  to 
the  Hospital,  he  would  trust  him  with  any 
thing ;  but  I  am  afraid  of  the  people  about 
him;  I  am  afraid  of  their  advice.  But,  how- 
ever, withont  attempting  to  recollect  particu- 
lars of  that  sort,  that  is  of  too  much  difficulty 
for  me, 'the  result  of  the  whole  was,  that  he 
"was  afraid  of  those  people  in  the  Hospital  that 
might  have  lord  Saodwich's  ear,  and  might 
pve  wrong  advice;  he  was  afraid  it  would  be 
anpnident  in  him  to  tnist  to  aprovisiott  beiog 
VOL.  XXL  I 


made  afler  resignation ;   therefore  a  meeting 
was  to  be  had  next  day. 

How  came  you  to  think  it  was  an  imputa' 
tion  upon  captain  Baillie  to  have  a  goocl  opi- 
nion of  lord  Sandwich ;  because  I  desired  you 
to  mention  the  instances  of  passion  and  vio^ 
lence  ? — I  did  whisper  to  captain  Baillie,  that 
I  recollected  one  instance,  that  I  thought  it 
would  be  justice  to  tell,  because  that  was  not 
any  imputation  thrown  out  by  him  against 
lord  Sandwich. 

What  imputations  of  warmth  and  passion  } 
— Very  violent  cursing  and  swearing,  and  vio- 
lent oaths. 

Mention  them? — I  cannot  tell  them.  I 
took  the  liberty  to  say  to  captain  Baillie,  if  he 
could  put  me  in  mind  of  any  thing  that  was  to 
his  advantage,  I  would  tell  it;  I  don't  recol- 
lect, only  that  the  conversation  was  so  warm, 
and  so  much  passion  in  it,  that  I  thought  my- 
self spending  my  time  very  ill,  to  sit  two  or 
three  hours  at  the  mercy  of  any  gentleman 
that  thought  proper  to  "put  himself  in  a  pas* 
sion,  when  I  was  acting  only  for  his  good.' 

Do  you  recollect  any  other  instances  of 
passion? — ^I'he  whole  was  for  two  or  three 
hours,  from  the  time  that  this  proposition 
was  made  upon  the  subject,  and  upon  the  ar- 
gument, whether  he  should  rcsi^  and  trust 
lor  the  provision  to  be  made  for  him,  or  not ; 
it  was  of  no  consequence  at  all,  whether  he 
had  it  before  or  after  that,  I  was  sure  he 
would  have  it;  that  was  the  subject  the 
whole  lime,  and  a  great  variety  of  very  vague 
matter,  God  knows  ;  but  it  ended  in  deferring 
the  matter  till  next  day.  The  next  day  he  re- 
mained in  the  same  way  of  thinking ;  I  think 
h^  then  came  vrithout  his  brother ;  I  desired 
Mr.  Butler  to  take  down  the  answer,  and  to 
take  it  down  in  as  genteel  terms  as  he  possi- 
bly could  •  1  read  it  when  it  was  taken  down ; 
I  then  said,  that  the  answer,  in  ray  opinion, 
amounted  in  plain  English  to  this,  I  will  not 
trust  you.  I  did  not  like  being  the  bearer  of 
that  message ;  therefore,  said  I,  Mr.  Butler 
(after  he  h^  it  witten  down)  he  wrote  it 
down  in  terms  that  I  approved  of;  I  said,  be 
so  good  to  tell  lord  Sandwich  that  is  the  naked 
answer ;  he  said  he  would  do  so.  I  begged 
of  him  to  make  my  apology  to  lord  Sand- 
wich, to  tell  his  lordship  I  saw  the  hurry 
they  were  in ;  I  thought  it  would  only  be 
obtruding ;  if  lord  Sandwich  wants  to  see 
me,  I  will  wait  upon  him;  we  all  parted. 
The  next  day,  being  appointed  for  Mr.  But- 
ler to  come  and  give  lord  Sai^dwich's  answer,, 
they  met  again ;  Mr.  Butler  was  then  very 
short ;  the  conversation  was  very  short ;  he 
took  the  paper  out  of  his  pocket;  he  said,  I 
read  this  paper ;  lord  Sandwich  said,  there  is 
an  end  of  it,  I  will  have  no  more  to  do  with 
him.  I  turned  to  captain  Baillie  and  said,  I 
foresaw  as  much ;  I  wish  you  had  taken  my 
advice ;  but  I  did  not  press  it  too  much ;  I 
thought  it  a  delicate  business  to  obtrude  my 
advice,  but  my  opinion  was,  I  thought  you 
had  bette]^  cQffip]^  aad  take  it.  I  taw  qo  more 

%  B 


S71] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaillUr         [S7f 


of  the  noble  lord,  nor  never  laid  my  eyes  upon 
that  noble  lord,  till  the  other  night  I  was  here 
in  the  House,  and  saw  him  as  I  do  now.  I 
have  a  reason  to  add,  that  I  never  saw  him 
before,  from  the  time  I  supped  at  his  house 
at  Huntingdon,  till  the  time  I  conversed  with 
him  respecting  captain  Baillie,  I  have  not 
had  any  intercourse  with  him  whatever ;  and, 
from  that  time,  I  have  not  had,  directly  nor 
indirectly,  by  letter,  message,  or  any  human 
being,  the  smallest  intercourse  with  that 
noble  lord. 

You  said  before,  you  were  upon  oath,  that 
you  understood  you  could  not  be  examined  as 
to  the  brief  you  had  received  from  captain 
Baillie  ? — I  did  say,  that  I  supposed  nobody 
meant  to  cxam'me*  me  to  the  contents  of  the 
brief  1  held  as  one  of  capt.  Baillie*s  counsel; 
I  did  suppose  that,  to  be  sure. 

Upon  what  ground  did  you  suppose  so  ? — 
Because  I  nevejr.yet  heard  of  any  counsel's 
being  called  upon,  at  a  distance  of  time,  to  re- 
collect his  brief,  after -it  has  been  given  up  to 
his  attorney,  with  his  name  signed  upon  the 
back  of  it ;  for  my  own  part,  I*  always  dis- 
charge my  memory  of  it. 

Is  a  brief  the  property  of  the  oounsel  or 
client  ?— Of  client ;  and,  for  that  reason,  it  b 
returned,  with  the  name  of  the  counsel  at  the 
back  of  it. 

And  do  you  therefore  think  jjobody  has  a 
right  to  examine  that  brief,  but  the  party 
himself?* — My  idea  was,  that  I  was  not  to  be 
examined  to  the  contents  of  my  brief. 

You  have  swd,  that  Mr.  Butler,  when  you 
met  the  first  time,  began  upon  the  affairs  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  by  asking  you,  what  you 
thought  of  them  ? — ^Yes. 

Do  you  mean  b^  that  to  say,  that  you  be- 
gan the  negociation  at  that  time  with  Mr. 
Butler)— Not  till  he  informed  me,  that  he 
^as  acquainted  with  lord  Sandwich,  and  em- 
ployed, I  think,  by  hhn ;  then  it  was  that  the 
proposal  of  it  was  made. 

I  think  you  said,  that  Mr.  Butler  acquaint- 
ed you,  the  first  time  you  saw  him,  that  he 
was  employed  in  the  affairs  of  Greenwich 
Hospital,  and  that  he  had  an  answer  to  cap- 
tain Baillie's  book,  prepared  in  two  columns  ? 
—He  told  me  so. 

The  first  time  you  saw  him  ?— I  never  saw 
him,  but  that  once,  previous  to  the  subse- 
quent meeting  I  have  spoken  of;  and  the 
nrsttime  I  saw  him  was  at  Serle's  Coffee- 
house. 

He  informed  you  he  was  employed  in  the 
affiirs  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  and  had  pre- 
pared an  answer  or  report  of  the  committee, 
m  two  columns  ?~Not  the  report  of  the  com- 
mittee;  that  pamphlet,  whicn  I  believe  your 
lordship  has  seen  in  two  columns,  extracts 
from  the  report  in  answer  to  captain  BaiUie's; 

*  Allading:  to  it  brief  that  was'  sent  for  and  deli- 
vend  to  a  great  law  lord,  wken  the  bonness  ^»w 
into  this  Hoose ;  not  Mr.  Marpby's ;  Mr.  H 
Otii^,  Ed*    I  know  jiot  whut  this  m««iia» 


not  that  he  had  prepared  the  report,  but  that 
he  had  prepared  that  extract,  and  he  shewed 
it  me  a  few  days  afterwards  in  manuscript; 
that  publication  which  is  in  print,  I  am  tcud, 
but  I  have  never  seen  it  in  prmt. 

Was  it  then  finished  wnen  he  shewed  it 
you  ? — I  don't  know,  I  looked  over  a  little 
of  it. 

Was  it  in  two  coliunns? — Yes,  in  maaii- 
script. 

Did  you  make  use  of  any  expressions^in  the 
course  of  this  negociation,  that  if  this  was 
published  in  two  columns,  that  captain  Baillie 
would  print  a  third  to  it  ? — I  said,  I  should 
advise  him  to  it,  at  the  same  time  telling 
them  all  to  take  care,  that  publications  <S 
what  passed  in  tourt  might  be  Ubels,  if  pub- 
lished unnecessanly  out  of  court. 

You  have  stated  some  negoQiations  having 
been  begun  by  you  with  other  persons,  were 
they  by  the  direction  of  captain  Baillie  ?— I 
understood  Mr.  Bearcroft's  authori^;  Mr. 
Bearcrofl,  himself,  told  it  me ;  and  1  under- 
stood it  afterwards,  from  captain  Baillie,  that 
it  was  so ;  and  I  understood  that  we  were  both 
before  November  term,  both  had  his  autho* 
rity  to  negociate  for  him,  taking  care  of  his 
honour,  which  I  told  him  we  naturally  should 
do ;  it  remained  in  that  manner,  that  general 
authority,  I  had  no  other  than  that  general 
authority  unrevoked  in  all  the  conversations  I 
had  with  him  afterwards,  which  were  fre- 
quent, three  or  four  tiq^es  a  week,  just  as 
suited  himself;  I  was  always  open  to  him. 

I  understood  captain  Baillie,  that  before,  the 
term,  upon  Mr.  Bearcrofl's  suggesting  to  him, 
whether  he  had  any  objections  to  any  nego- 
ciations  being  entered  mto,  that  he  did  ^ive 
him  an  authority;  but  did  captain  Baillie 
give  you  any  authority? — He  aid  the  very 
same;  because,  when  I  told  him  what  Mr. 
Bearcroft  said  to  me,  I  said,  am  I  to  under- 
stand, that  we  are  at  liberty  to  negociate  for 
you ;  he  said  yes,  always  taking  care  to  have 
an  equivalent  provision,  and-  taking  care  of 
his  honour. 

Was  not  this  before  the  term?— Yes. 

Was  not  something  said  by  Mr.  Beupooft 
to  the  Solicitor  General  upon  that  subject  f — ^I 
believe  there  was;  not  m  my  presence;  I 
myself  spoke  to  the  Solicitor  General;  I  an- 
swered very  indistinct;  but  I  understood  he 
had  no  authority  to  negociate. 

Did  you  acquaint  captain  Baillie  with  that? 
— ^I  believe  I  did. 

Did  not  captain  Bailie  hok  upon  it,  in  coo* 
sequence  of  that  answer,  that  all  negociatioa 
upon  that  subject  was  at  an  end?~No;  I 
told  him  of  the  attempts  I  had  made,  to  get 
at  a  negociation  if  I  could.  It  was  with  no 
view  in  the  world,  but  to  serve  captain  Bail- 
lie;  and  I  certainly  will  not  be  subject  la 
these  examinations  in  future,  by  negociatioiia 
of  any  sort. 

Whether  you  did  not  go  to  lord  Sandwich^ 
in  consequence  of  a  letter  from  Mr.  Butlei^ 
that  lord.  $ftadwicb  desiied  Iq  »e  joai^l  be^ 


ST3]        mpecHng  the  Rojfid  Hospital  at  Greenwich.        A.  D.  1778. 


[374 


fieve  I  mentioned,  that  the  origin  of  this  bu- 
siness was  on  a  Friday;  that  on  the  Monday 
following  I  receired,  while   I  was  at  Mr. 
Thrale's,  a  letter  from  Mr.  Butler,  informing  , 
rae  he  had  seen  lord  Sandwich  that  same  \ 
day,  and  found  him  in  some  disposition  to  do  | 
what  I  wished,  and  that  lord  Sandwich  would  i 
be  ^ad  to  see  me  at  the  Admiralty,  and  I  did 
go  the  next  day. 

But,  previous  to  that,  had  not  there  been 
some  proposals  from  lord  Sandwich,  mention- 
ed by  Mr.  Butler,  to  captain  Baillie  ?— On  the 
Satmday  morning,  after  I  had  seen  Mr.  But- 
ler, he  came  to  me,  and  informed  me,  that  he 
had  been  at  the  Admiralty,  and  ^hat  he  did 
not  find  lord  Sandwich  in  any  disposition  to 
act  with  sfrfeen  or  resentment,  ana  he  asked 
me  whether  I  was  serious  in  the  proposition  I 
had  made  ?  I  told  him,  yes :  he  asked  me 
whether  captaitt  Baillie  would  confirm  that  ? 
I  told  him  I  would  see  captain  Baillie  that 
day.  He  asked  me  if  captain  Baillie  could 
pomt  out  any  mode  of  having  the  provision 
made  for  him,  because  lord  Sandwich  would 
not  appoint  him  to  any  public  office;  that 
was  the  proposal  Mr.  Butler  mentioned  to 
me,  and  captain  Baillie  gave  an  answer  to  it, 
when  it  was  communicated  to  him. 

I  beg  to  know,  distinctl^r,  whether  you  did 
not  mention  this  to  captain  Baillie  as  a  pro- 
posal coming  from  lord  Sandwich,  to  be  men- 
tioned by  you  to  him . — Most  totally — ^most  de- 
cisively the  reverse.  I  told  him  the  whole  of 
the  conversation,  most  distinctly,  between 
Mr.  Butler  and  me,  how  it  happened.  The 
degree  of  acquaintance  I  had  with  Mr.  But- 
ler, when,  and  in  what  time  it  came  out,  that 
he  was  ac(]uainied  with  lord  Sandwich — ^how 
I  had  earned  on  the  conversation  in  order  to 
get  at  a  negodation^  and  told  him  he  had  been 
with  me  tmit  mormng  in  conseouence  of  it ; 
therefore,  do  you  approve  of  it  ?  He  did — Can 
you  point  out  a  mode  ? — Yes ;  he  did  point 
out  a  mode**Mr.  Butler  sent  in  his  name,  I 
did  not  let  them  meet ;  Mr.  Baillie  went  into 
another  room,  and  Mr.  Butlet  saw  the  pro- 
posal written  down. 

I  b^  to  know  whether  you  did  not  mention 
this  to  captain  Baillie,  as  a  proposal  coming 
from  lord  Sandwich,  to  be  mentioned  by  you 
to  captain  Baillie  ? — I  say,  most  decisively,  I 
did  not ;  but  related  it  to  him  in  the  manner 
I  have  related  it  now. 

Will  you  be  so  kind  as  to  look  at  that 
piqier  ?— -(Shewing  Mr.  Murphy  a  manuscript 
paper  of  his  own  writing.)— I  did  expect  this, 
audi  beg  to  call  your  lordship's  attention  to 
it-— Captam  Baillie,  soon  aiUr  this  business 
was  over,  called  upon  me ;  he  told  me  he  had 
related  the  story,  and  had  not  mentioned  my 
name ;  I  told  him  he  was  right  not  to  mention 
toy  name,  but  it  would  be  for  him  to  judge 
whether  it  was  proper  to  mentioA  it  at  all: 
he  came  to  me,  and  said  he  had  been  pressed 
to  tell  who  was  the  counsel ;  I  told  him  I  did 
not  chuse  to  have  my  name  known— he  came 
afterwards  and  said,  they  wished  to  examine 


me ;  I  said  I  would  not  be  examined ;  I  said 
my  name  ought  never  to  be  mentioned ;  I 
asked  what  he  could  get  from  it  ?  I  think  a 
disgrace  falls  upon  a  man  that  offers  to  dis- 
close a  secret  negociation ;  and  what  will  you 
get  from  it  ? — Why,  says  he,  lord  Sandwich 
would  not  offer  me  a  provision  if  he  did  not 
think  me  innocent.  No,  said  I,  quite  the  re- 
verse ;  when  his  own  words  are,  I  don't  want 
to  be  cruel  or  vindictive,  and  repeating  what 
lord  Sandwich  had  said  upon  tne  subject,  I 
said,  I  think  you  are  innocent ;  but  I  don't 
think  it  proves  lord  Sandwich  thinks  so.  I 
said  why  examine  me?  are  there  not  Mr. 
Cooke,  and  Mr.  Butler?  why  give  me  the 
trouble  of  an  examination.  Then  I  was  not 
to  be  examined — ^then  you  will  examine  Mr. 
Butler^  and  such  a  man,  an^  such  a  man.  I 
was  willing  at  all  times  to  give  him  every  as- 
sistance. I  said,  do  you  Know  how  to  go 
about  examining  these  people  ?  I  took  a  pen 
and  ink  and  scribblea  the  examination  of 
numbers— whether  those  examinations  have 
been  made  any  use  of  I  don't  know ;  for  I 
have  not  attended  much  here.  Now,  Mr. 
Butler,  what  sisnifies  calling  him,  it  is  bring- 
ing a  witness  from  the  other  camp ;  if  you 
could  examine  him,  so  as  to  shut  out  circum- 
stances, and  get  short  and  dry  answers  to 
questions,  you  do  something ;  but  if  not,  it 
will  come  out  upon  cross^xamination.  I 
took  a  pen  and  iuK  and  scribbled  something, 
and  it  is  called  the  examination  of  Mr.  Butler. 
Mr.  Baillie  told  me,  the  other  day,  of  this 
paper:  I  said,  was  not  I  promised,  that  that 
should  be  thrown  into  the  fire,  and  nothing 
should  be  known  about  my  concern  in  the 
business  ?  This  is  as  artful  an  examination  as 
I  could  put  upon  paper.  In  this  paper  it 
will  be  found>  that  lord  Sandwich  saia,  he  did 
not  wish  to  see  captain  Baillie  ruined;  he 
was  not  spiteful  ana  vindictive— those  words 
are  written  down  there,  that  he  should  be 
upon  his  guarrl  not  to  get  those  words  out,  if 
he  could  avoid  it.  This  was  done  at  the  time 
that  I  understood  that  I  was  not  to  be  exa» 
mined ;  and,  therefore,  I  was  willing  to  give 
every  assistance.  In  the  month  of  February, 
a  man  came  in,  when  I  was  going  on  the 
circuit,  and  delivered  me  an  order  to  attend 
the  House  of  Lords ;  I  said,  I  am  goins  the 
circuit  to-morrow  morning.  He  said,  '  Here 
is  an  order  from  the  House  of  Lords^  and  I 
must  have  6s.  Qd,  for  it.'  I  said,  give  my 
humble  service  to  the  House  of  Lords;  when 
they  send  me  good  news  I  will  give  you  6«. 
8d.  but  I  will  not  give  you  6$,  Bd.  for  that. 
Therefore  whatever  my  opinion  and  my 
wishes  may  be  about  captain  Baillie,  I  have 
kept  as  clear  as  I  can ;  and  I  am  astonished 
to  see  that  paper  here. 

Q,  to  Mr.  Murphy.    I  will  read  some  of  it 
"  Were  you  present  at  any  conversation 

between  lord  Sandwich  and  Mr.  Mui^hy?— 

He  must  say  that  he  was. 
«  Was  it  at  the  Admiralty  f— ft  was. 


375] 


18  GEpRGE  III.  The  Que  of  Captain  Thomas  BaUHe,         [376 


"  Did  Mr.  Murphy  go  there  in  consequence 
of  a  letter  from  you,  informing  him  that  lord 
Sandwich  desired  to  see  him  ? — He  must  say 
that  he  wrote  a  letter  to  that  purpose. 

'*  Before  you  wrote  that  letter,  had  vou 
made  any  proposals,  on  the  part  of  lord 
Sandwich,  to  be  mentioned  by  Mr.  Murphy 
to  captain  Baillie  ? — He  must  admit,  that  on 
Saturday  the  1 2th  of  December,  he  did  tell 
Mr.  Murphy,  that  if  captain  Baillie  would  re- 
sign his  omce  of  lieutenant  governor,  lord 
Sandwich  would  make  an  equivalent  provision 
for  captain  Baillie." 

Then  it  goes  on  with  the  remainder  of  the 
examination.* 

*  Q.  Was  capUin  Baillie  desired,  in  the  terms  of 
that  proposal,  to  point  out  anj  mode  of  making  a 
pro?isioa  for  him^^A.  He  mast  admit  that  lord 
Sandwich  said,  if  captain  Baillie  would  point  out  any 
practicable  mode,  that  it  should  be  done. 

Did  captain  Baillie  propose  that  his  son-in-law, 
Mr.  Derisme,  should  be  made  a  commissioner  of  the 
victualling,  in  the  room  of  captain  Kirk,  in  whose 
favour  captain  Baillie  would  then  resign  the  lieute- 
nant goremorship  ? — He  must  admit  that  Mr.  Mur- 
phy gave  that  answer  on  the  part  of  captain  Baillie. 

Did  captain  Baillie  desire  that  his  suspension 
aliould  be  token  off  before  he  resigned  ? — He  most 
admit  that  he  did. 

Did  captain  Baillie  desire  to  have  a  ship  of  war, 
that  he  might  resign  with  honour  to  himself? — He 
must  admit  the  fact. 

\Vas  it  not  in  consequence  of  tlio  witness's  letter, 
that  Mr.  Murphy  went  to  the  Admiralty  ? — He  must 
lay  it  was  so. 

Who  was  present  at  the  Admiralty  when  Mr. 
Marphy  waited  on  lord  Sandwich  ? — He  must  saj 
lord  Sandwich,  the  witness  himself,  and  the  Rev. 
Mr.  CSooke. 

In  that  oonvemtioD,  did  lord  Sandwich  say  any 
thing  about  the  proposal  reblive  to  Mr.  Devisiiief — 
He  must  say  that  lord  Sandwich  said,  he  had  seen 
oaptain  Kirke,  and  that  mode  would  not  do,  because 
captain  Kirke  had  no  thought  of  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital. 

Did  lord  Sandvrich  tay,  that  if  captain  Baillie 
would  resign,  he  would  make  ane<|oiva]ent  provision 
for  him  P — He  mdst  say,  that  lord  Sandwich  said, 
"  He  was  not  spiteful  or  vindictive,  and  that  he  did 
not  wish  to '  see  captain  Baillie  mined,'  and  if  cap* 
tain  Baillie  resigned,  without  giving  lord  Sandwich 
the  trouble  of  dismissing  him,  he  woold  provide  for 
him  as  soon  as  possible." 

Did  lord  Sandwich  say  that,  if  eaptain  Baillie 
would  not  resign,  he  could  turn  him  out,  and  do  no- 
thing for  him  ? — lie  most  admit  that  these  are  the 
words,  or  to  that  effect  , 

Was  this  conversation  communicated  to  captain 
Baillie  in  the  presence  of  Mr.  Butler  ? — He  must  ad- 
Init  that  it  was  at  Mr.  Murphy's  chambers,  in  Lin- 
ooln's-inn,  the  persons  present  being  Mr.  Muq)hy, 
Mr.  Butler,  captain  Baillie,  and  Mr.  William  BailliOj 
brother  of  captain  Baillie. 

Did  captain  Baillie  make  answer,  that  unless  an 
equivalent  provision  was  made  for  him  before  hand, 
Im  woold  not  resign  ? — He  most  admit  ihis,  as  oap- 
tain Baillie  has  the  answer  in  Mr.  Butler's  hand- 
writing ;  the  paper  itself  may  be  shewn  to  the  wit- 
ness, who  must  adroit  his  own  hand-writing. 

When  paptain  ^Baillie  ipwde  that  aniwer,  did  you 


This  seems  to  me  to  be  extremely  different 
fipom  what  Mr.  Murphy  could  have  anv  objec- 
tion to  its  coming  out ;  for  it  is  precisely  what 
has  come  out  in  his  own  exammation.  Was 
not  captain  Baillie  desired,  in  the  terms  of 
that  proposal^  to  point  out  something  ?  If  it 
was  a  proposal  of  Mr.  Murphy  alope,  captain 
Baillie  was  led  into  an  error.  Therefore,  my 
Question  upon  the  whole  of  this  is,  Whether 
(Mr.  Murphy  having  seen  this  paper,  in  his 
own  hand-writing)  if  captain  BaiUie  was  led 
into  the  error  of  thinking  the  proposal  came 
from  lord  Sandwich,  whether  he  was  not  led 
into  it  by  Mr.  Murphy  ? 

Mr.  Murphy,  It  was  lon^  after  cap- 
tain Baillie  hsid  told  me  he  wished  to  exa- 
mine me,  I  asked  him,  ''  Have  you  told  the 
person,  that  wished  to  examine  me,  that  it 
began  from  me  ?  Have  you  told  them  what 
passed  between  Mr.  Butler  and  me,  on  Friday  ? 
Have  you  told  them  I  sent  the  proposition  to 
the  Admiralty,  by  Mr.  Butler?  Have  you  told 
them  lord  Sandwich  refused  to  accept  the 
papers  ?  Have  you  told  them  lord  Sandwich 
was  ready  to  meet  the  enauiry?  Have  you 
told  them  that  he  said  he  dia  not  want  to  act 
cruelly  and  vindictively  ?  Tell  them  all  these 
things,  and  see  whetlier  they  will  think  it  an 
object  to  examine  me  ?''  With  regard  to  the 
paper,  your  lordships  see  it  is  every  word  of  it 
calculated,  if  the  party  will  give  dry  answers, 
to  shut  out  what  passed  on  Friday ;  for  then 
it  wpuld  look  as,  if  it  came  from  lord  Sand^ 
wich,  and  not  from  me  ;  but  if  he  does  not 
give  a  dry  answer,  he  will  say,  yes,  I  did,  on 
Saturday ;  but  it  was  in  consequence  of  what 
was  offered  me  on  Friday. 

Did  you  tell  captain  Baillie  this  paper  was 
drawn  up  with  a  view  to  shut  out  what  hap* 
pencd  on  Friday  i — Yes ;  I  told  captain  BailJie 
I  did  it  with  that  view,  to  avoid  the  Friday, 
and  make  it  as  artiiil  an  examination  as  pos* 
sible ;  and  he  promised  to  bum  it,  as  soon  as 
he  had  copied  it ;  and  that  my  name  should 
not  be  mentioned  ;  and,  therefore,  I  do  com- 
plain of  double  treachery  in  that  paper.  I 
will  take  care  to  know  a  man  before  1  nego- 
ciate  for  him  again ;  I  add  further,  it  was  not 
justice  to  lord  Sandwich,  when  I  came  to  con- 
sider of  the  whole ;  that  I  would  have  had  bu- 
siness out  of  the  kingdom,  sooner  than  I 
would  have  been  here  ;  and  if  lord  Sandwich 
had  talked  unguarded  to  me,  or  the  lowest 
man  in  the  kingdom.  I  would  not  permit  it  to 
be  said,  that  he  should  be  a  sufferer  by  pbcing 
confidence  in  me. 

What  was  this  great  secret  you  would  have 
eone  out  of  the  kingdom  to  avoid  ?— I  said,  if 
lord  Sandwich  had  talked  unguardedly ;  if  he 
had  laid  himself  open  to  me ;  if  he  had,  in 
that  confidence,  put  me  in  possession  of  a 
secret ;  if  I  thought  it  a  secret  proper  to  be 
* 

press  him  to  consult  the  rest  of  his  oonmel ;  and  did 
yon  send  to  know  whether  Mr.  Bearorafl,  and  Mfv 
Erskinot  were  in  the  way  ? — ^This  remaining  part  was 
not  ivad,  bot  if  a  oopy  of  the  origiflal.    Orig,  £4i 


37T]         respecting  ike  Royal  HospUal  at  GreenxxAch.         A.  D.  1778. 


[378 


concealed;  not  only  in  the  case  of  the 
nohle  lord,  but  the  lowest  person  in  the 
kingdom. 

What  was  there,  in  this  neeociation,  that 
was  at  all  secret,  or  could  be  kept  secret  ? — 
In  my  apprehension  nothing  witn  regard  to 
lord  &inawich,  bul  with  regard  to  myself,  as 
the  counsel  that  did  negociate,  I  abhor  it  to 
this  moment. 

Explain  what  relates  to  you  as  counsel  in 
this  business  ? — I  could  be  better  employed  at 
this  moment,  rather  than  here ;  it  is  my  duty 
lo  examine  witnesses  in  some  cases,  and  I 
wish  never  to  be  a  witness,  especially  after  the 
words,  "  I  talk  with  you,  because  I  consider 
you  as  a  man  of  honour,"  and  I  desire  it  may 
appear  to  mankind,  that  I  do  not  collude,  and 
that  I  do  not  negociate  with  a  man  to  betray 
him. 

What  is  the  secret  in  this  negociation,  that 
there  b  any  thing  wrong  in  betraying ;  that 
can  hurt  any  body? — ^I  beg  it  may  not  be 
thought  too  bold  a  declaration,  if  I  had 
thought  there  had  been  any  thins,  I  would  not 
have  been  here,  and  because  I  Uiought  there 
was  nothing,  therefore  I  am  here. 

W^hat  do  you  complain  of  ? — The  treachery 
of  mentioning  my  name,  and  the  writing  that 
paper,  which  was  as  artfully  calculated  as 
could  be,  that  nothing  might  come  out.  Mr. 
Butler,  I  said,  would  know  what  he  is  about 
and  bring  it  out,  if  not,  the  cros»-examination 
will,  and  it  always  was  my  opinion  never  to 
meddle  with  this  part  of  the  business. 

What  was  the  possible  mischief  or  hurt  to 
any  person  living,  from  this  being  made 
known  ? — ^I  have  very  particular  teelings, 
which  I  dare  say  your  lordship,  and  every 
lord  that  hears  me,  will  enter  into  the  feelings 
a  man  may  have  in  his  own  breast,  which  he 
cannot  well  analyze,  when  called  upon  to 
speak  to  disclose  that  which  he  learned  in 
confidence. 

I  must  bee  to  have  an  answer  to  that  ques- 
tion, what  there  is  so  secret  in  this,  that 
should  hurt  Mr.  Murphy  to  disclose  ? — In  my 
opinion,  in  such  a  situation  as  I  am  in,  having 
talked  for  one  with  the  other ;  the  conversa^ 
tion  is  to  the  noble  lord's  honour,  that  is  my 
sentiment  about  it. 

There  is  one  point  I  had  forgot,  which  is, 
to  ask  you,  whether  in  the  course  of  this  con- 
versation, that  you  understood  lord  Sandwich\s 
offer  was  to  make  a  compensation  to  captain 
Baillie,  or  only  to  Mr.  Devisme  ? — Mr.  ^illie^ 
proposed,  that  it  would  be  a  sufficient  com- 
pensation to  him,  if  his  son-in-law,  Mr. 
Devisme,  should  be  made  a  commissioner  of 
the  victualling,  and  he  would  then  readily  re- 
sign upon  his  half-pay ;  I  believe,  he  did  say 
Mr.  Devisme  and  him  would  understand  one 
another. 

The  question  I  asked  you,  was  not  what 
captain  Baillie  proposed,  but  whether  lord 
Sandwich  had  proposed  to  give  a  compensa- 
tion to  captain  jBaillie  him&df,  or  had  agreed 
lo  it  ? — My  lord  Sandwich  certainly  did  say, 


that  that  proposition  relative  to  Mr.  Devisitie, 
he  should  have  had  no  objection  to,  if  it  had 
been  practicable,  but  it  was  impracticable; 
for  on  the  Tuesday  morning,  he  said  he  had 
seen  capt.  Kirke,  that  capt.  Baillie  was  misin- 
formed relative  to  him,  he  did  not  want 
Greenwich  Hospital  at  all,  therefore  that 
would  not  do ;  that  he  knew  Mr.  Devisme, 
and  should  have  had  no  objection  to  doing  it; 
and  the  readiness  with  which  he  saw  capt. 
Kirke,  convinced  me  that  it  was  so.  Captain 
Baillie  frequently  told  me,  he  believed  the 
noble  lord  had  not  seen  captain  Kirke ;  but 
his  brother,  in  my  chambers,  did  once  desire 
him  to  say  that  no  more,  because  he  knew,  of 
his  own  knowledge,  that  lord  Sandwich  had 
seen  captain  Kirke. 

The  auestion  I  ask  is,  whether  lord  Sand- 
wich dia  not  say  he  would  give  a  compensa- 
tion to  captain  Baillie  ? — He  did  say  it  m  the 
way  I  mention;  I  chuse  to  avoid  my  own 

{)aper,  and  not  to  give  short  and  dry  answers  ; 
onl  ^ndwich  did  say  he  would  have  carried 
that  into  execution  if  he  could.  The  noble 
lord  did  say,  if  captain  Baillie  could  show  any 
practicable  mode  of  making  a  provision  for 
nim  ;  and  I  think  he  said  perhaps  I  may  see 
that  myself  sooner  than  him,  and  he  was  will- 
ing to  do  it. 

Then  did  you  understand  in  noiaking  a  pro- 
vision for  him^  that  he  meant  through  Mr. 
Devisme,  or  directly  to  captain  Baillie  ? — In 
the  way  captain  Baillie  should  chuse  to  be 
served,  but  desiring  captain  Baillie  would 
always  bear  in  mind^  that  he  would  not  ap* 
point  him  to  a  public  office. 

Did  you  imaerstand  that  compensation  to 
have  been  such,  as  with  his  half-pay,  should 
amount  to  600/.  a  year  ? — I  understood  so ;  I 
concluded  it  was  meant  so ;  I  myself  did  un- 
derstand ^and  conceive  so,  though  I  do  not 
know  that  there  was  any  such  distinct 
wprds. 

I  should  be  clad  to  know  whether  captain 
Baillie  has  called  upon  you  since  you  nave 
been  summoned  ?— When  I  came  off  the 
circuit,  which  was  about  the  24th  or  25th  of 
March,  he  did  call  upon  me ;  he  told  me  I 
was  come  in  time ;  I  said  I  did  ifot  relish  it 
at  all ;  that  I  was  in  hopes  it  would  liave  been 
all  over  while  I  was  on  the  circuit,  and  I  pro- 
tested entirely  against  it,  both  in  point  of 
utility  to  him,  and  inconvenience  to  myself  ;^ 
he  called  upon  me  about  a  fortnight  ago. 

The  Earl  oi  Chesterfield.  Did  he  never  in- 
timate a  wish,  that  you  should  soflen  your 
evidence  ? — I  believe  nobody  that  knows  me 
would  mention  that  to  me ;  he  did  not. 

Whether  captain  Baillie  ever  expressed  to 
you  who  the  persons  were  that  he  alluded 
to,  when  he  said,  that  though  he  could  trust 
the  noble  lord,  yet  he  could  not  trust  the 
people  about  him  ?  Did  he  name  who  those 
people  were  ? — I  do  not  recollect  that  I  had 
any  curiosity  about  knowing  who  they  were ; 
because  I  knew  at  that  time  who  the  people 
were  that  he  was  at  variance  with ;  I  ima- 


579] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaUlUf  [380 


gtned  he  meant  aU  the  people  in  the  Hospital 
that  complained  of  him.* 

Vo  you  know  that  these  people  were  the 
parUcuIar  advisers,  or  were  much  about  the 
noble  lord  at  the  head  of  the  Admiralty  ?— I 
had  no  more  knowledge  about  the  Hospital, 
or  the  government  of  it,  or  the  power  and  au- 
thority the  lords  of  the  Admiralty  have  over 
it,  than  I  have  of  the  laws  of  Japan,  till  I  had 
that  brief. 

Did  he  name  any  of  them  ?— I  cannot  say 
whether  he  did  at  that  time;  I  often  heard 
him  name  among  the  people  that  applied  to 
the  KingVbench.  among  the  people  that  com- 
plained to  the  Admiralty,  among  a  variety  of 
people  that  he  was  at  variance  with  in  the 
Hospital ;  I  have  often  heard  him  name  those 
.he  pointed  at  more  than  others. 

Who  were  they  ? — I  believe  the  rev.  Mr. 
Cooke  had  a  good  deal  of  share  in  his  resent- 
ment; and  I  believe  Mr.  Hicks,  and  Mr. 
Mylne,  had  a  good  deal  of  share  in  it.  Their 
names  do  not  occur  to  me  now,  but  I  believe 
there  were  few  escaped. 

Whether,  when  he  expressed  that  diffidence 
of  trusting  to  the  noble  lord  from  the  people 
that  were  about  him ;  or  whether  he  aid  not 
say,  that  he  could  have  depended  upon  the 
noble  lord  himself,  if  he  had  been  the  only 
person?— That  he  would  have  trusted  to  him 
if  be  had  stood  single  and  alone. 

Did  you  hear  him  express  any  other  warm 
5Pi^rds  ? — ^I  did  not  mention  them  as  an  in- 
stance of  warm  words;  but  recollecting  all  of 
a  sudden,  that  he  did  make  use  of  that  expres- 
sbn^  ana  I  thought  it  could  not  injure  him  to 
tell  It.  It  was  not  produced  as  an  instance  of 
passion^  or  of  his  being  violent  or  warm. 

[Mr.  Murphy  withdrew.] 


Friday^  May  7,  1770. 
Captain  Baillie  called  in. 

r  beg  captain  Baillie  will  inform  the  com- 
mittee of  what  he  knows  relative  to  a  transac- 
tion between  Mr.  Butler,  Mr.  Murphy,  and 
himself;  to  any  offer  made  to  him,  or  from 
him.  relative  to  his  auitting  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital f — I  sMl  humbly  hope  for  the  indul- 
fnce  of  the  House,  to  permit  me  to  read  what 
have  taken  down  upon  that  occasion;  it 
cannot  be  expected  of  me,  to  follow  two  such 
eminent  counsel  as  Mr.  Butler  and  Mr.  Mur- 
phy ;  I  have  taken  down  a  simple  account  of 
nu:ts,  if  your  lordships  will  permit  me  to  read 
it  as  evidence. 

My  lords,  as  the  matter  of  the  negociation 
with  my  lord  Sandwich  concerning  the  re- 
signation of  my  late  office  of  lieutenant-go- 
vernor, has  been  heard  at  your  lordships'  bar, 
with  a  variety  of  circumstances,  the  greater 
part  of  which  have  been  represented  mate- 
rially to  my  disadvantage,  1  trust  you  will 

*  No  ooapl&inti  were  ever  Bade  againtt  eapUin 
ie,  only  recriniiialioai.    Orig,  £d. 


permit  me  to  point  out  whatever  may  be  ne- 
cessary to  lay  a  true  state  of  that  transaction 
before  your  lordships.  My  lords,  a  great  deal 
has  been  said,  concerning  the  secrecy  which 
ouj^ht  to  be  preserved  by  men  of  honour  in 
their  negociations,  that  all  conversations  aboiit 
them  are  supposed  to  be  confidential,  and  that 
the  most  profound  secrecy  is  an  implied  stipu- 
lation ;  it  appears  to  me,  that  a  man  who  means 
to  act  £urly,  has  no  secrets.  I  have  in  every 
sta^e  of  this  matter  declared,  that  I  have  none ; 
ana  I  well  know,  that  I  am  struggling  in  a 
cause  in  which  nothing  but  truth  and  justice 
can  support  me.  When  this  negociation  was 
openea  to  me,  a  jpreat  deal  was  said  about 
secrecy,  in  which  I  was  willing  to  acj^niesce. 
as  long  as  I  conceived  myself  to  be  fairly  and 
honoiuubly  treated ;  because  I  understood  it 
to  be  the  particular  request  of  lord  Sandwich 
that  it  should  be  so ;  though,  as  his  lordship 
declared,  he  meant  to  act  in  the  most  ge- 
nerous manner,  I  wished,  for  his  sake,  that 
secrecy  had  not  been  stipulated;  but,  my 
lords,  when  I  found  that  the  negociation  eva- 
porated into  words,  and  that  all  which  re- 
mained, was  little  more  than  the  roost  con- 
temptuous indifference,  the  idea  on  which  se- 
crecy was  stipulated  was  at  an  end ;  proposals 
were  held  out  to  me  which  ended  in  mockery 
and  insult ;  and  nothing  could  be  more  unrea- 
sonable, than  to  suppose,  that  I  could  be 
under  an  obligation  to  keep  such  treatment  a 
secret  at  the  request  of  those  by  ^hom  I  had 
been  insulted. 

My  lords,  that  I  was  willing  to  change  my 
station  in  Greenwich  Hospital,  for  an  ad^uate 
compensation,  was  so  far  Irom  being  a  secret 
with  respect  to  me,  that  I  repeatedly  pressed 
it  to  my  lord  Sandwich  some  years  ago.  It 
was  my  indispensible  duty  to  protect  the  pen- 
sioners to  the  utmost  of  my  power,  and  there- 
fore it  was  impossible  for  me  to  acquiesce  in 
the  scenes  of  fraud  and  oppression  with  which 
I  was  surrounded ;  but  I  foresaw  the  dilemma 
into  which  I  should  be  reduced ;  and  thoiuj^  I 
could  not  neglect  the  duties  of  my  office, 
whilst  I  continued  lieutenant-sovernor  of  the 
Hospital,  I  wished  to  avoid  mat  ruin  which 
threatened  me,  if  I  took  any  effectual  steps  for 
redress.  Your  lordships  have  already  heard  a 
letter  from  lord  Sanawich,  dated  the  6th  of 
October,  1772,  when  this  offer  was  first  made 
to  him,  in  which  he  expressed  his  surprize  at 
my  wishing  to  retire,  and  pays  me  veiy  unre- 
served compUments  on  my  conduct  in  the 
Hospital. 

My  lords,  the  same  offer  was  again  pressed 
on  his  lordship,  when  I  laid  the  great  com- 
plaints of  the  pensioners  concerning  their 
beer  before  him,  in  May,  1777  ;  I  then  found 
that  I  had  lost  his  lordship's  good  opinion, 
though  it  appeared  to  me,  that  I  had  perse- 
vered in  the  same  line  of  conduct,  which  he 
before  had  complimented ;  I  was  told  that  I 
was  troublesoine,  that  I  would  not  let  business 
go  on,  and  that  the  same  thins  would  happen 
wherever  I  ^ould  be  placed;  a  declaratioa 


381]         rejecting  the  Royal  Hoqatal  at  Greenwch..        A.D.IT18. 


[388 


which  surprised  me  ereatly,  as  I  have  heen  a 
xealous  and  a  faithml  servant  to  his  majesty 
near  forty  years,  in  various  situations,  with- 
out ever  having  had  blame  imputed  to  me 
before;  and  I  could  not  conceive  that  his 
lordship  meant  to  declare,  that  it  was  not  in 
his  power  to  place  me  in  any  situation  under 
government,  in  which  a  man,  who  would  not 
be  a  silent  witness  to  fraud  and  oppression, 
could  be  employed ;  from  this  interview,  my 
lords,  which  has  left  the  strongesjt  and  most 
disagreeable  impressions  on  my  mind,  I  de- 
spaired of  redress  for  the  grievances  of  the 
rinsioners,  or  relief  for  the  mortifying  insults 
had  met  with,  in  every  attempt  to  protect 
them ;  I  was  at  length  compelled  to  take  the 
only  step  which  remained  within  the  line  of 
my  duty,  that  of  an  appeal  to  all  the  great  and 
noble  personages,  who  form  the  general  court 
of  commissioners  and  governors. 

My  lords,  nothing  could  be  &rther  from 
my  wishes  or  expectations,  than  that  the  mat- 
ter should  have  become  public,  or  have  ever 
assumed  the  appearance  of  disturbing  govern- 
ment, especially  in  times  so  critical  and  dan- 
gerous as  the  present ;  but  in  all  the  subse- 
quent stages  of  the  business,  I  have  been  com- 
pelled to  De  a  patient  spectator  of  the  steps 
which  have  been  taken  preparatory  to  mv 
ruin ;  I  have  been  brought  before  such  a  tn- 
bunal,  in  the  late  committee  of  directors,  as  I 
trust  never  did  before,  nor  never  will  exist 
again  in  this  country ;  a  court,  wherein  a  part 
of  the  persons  accused  sat  as  judges,  and 
others  of  them  appeared  as  evidence ;  the  de- 
terminaUon  has  been  exactly  such,  as  was  the 
necessary  consequence  of  a  court  so  consti- 
tuted, where  all  material  evidence^  except  of 
the  persons  charged,  has  been  re)ected,  facts 
of  the  most  glaring  notoriety  dieclared  not 
proved ;  I  have  been  pronounced  a  false  and 
malicious  calumniator,  and  sentenced  to  lose 
my  office,  in  the  pnost  ignominious  manner 
for  having  dared  to  accuse. 

I  have  been  compelled  to  sustain  a  most 
harassing  and  expensive  suit  in  the  court  of 
KingVbench,  which  was  discharged  with 
costs,  as  they  are  called,  that  is,  with  about 
one  half  of  the  expence  actually  incurred,  and 
no  kind  of  recompence  for  the  fatigue  "and 
anxiety  of  mind  occasioned  thereby. 

My  lords,  durino;  the  pendency  of  the  pro- 
lecutions  in  the  Kins's-oench,  all  my^counsel, 
after  they  had  read  their  briefs,  toldi  me,  that 
after  the  great  weight  of  uniform  and  respect- 
able testimony,  which  was  contained  in  more 
than  thirty  affidavits,  they  could  have  no 
dcNibt  of  the  truth  of  the  state  of  the  Hospital, 
which  I  had  laid  before  the  general  court; 
but  that  however  just  my  cause  might  be,  the 
number,  the  influence,  and  the  perseverance 
of  my  prosecutors,  would  inevitably  ruin  me. 

Mr.  Clearcrofi  (my  leading  counsel)  told  me 
very  kindly,  that  he  woula  take  an  opportu- 
nity to  speEUc  to  the  Solicitor  General,  to  see 
if  tne  matter  could  be  accommodated,  if  I  had 
00  objection;  I  told  tun  that  it  was  abready 

t 


well  known,  that  I  wished  to  resign  my  ap- 
pointment in  the  Hospital,  whenever  an  ade- 
quate provision  should  be  made  for  me  in  any 
other  station,  but  that  I  had  no  kind  of  expec-. 
tation  that  the  matter  would  then  be  accom- 
modated, as  I  well  knew  the  malice  of  my 
enemies,  and  that  as  they  had  obtained  a  rule 
upon  six  different  motions,  in  the  court  of 
King's  bench,  that  nothing  could  stop  them 
from  trying  the  event  of  every  one  of  them. 

Mr.  Bearcrofl  accordingly  found  his  at- 
tempts to  negociate  with  Mr.  Solicitor  Gene-> 
ral  fruitless,  and  nothing  could  have  relieved 
me  firom  those  informations,  but  the  clear 
justice  of  my  cause,  and  the  very  able  defence 
of  my  counsel ;  I  have  since  found,  however, 
that  Mr.  Murphy  made  my  case  Uie  subject 
of  very  indiscriminate  conversation,  and  so  far 
as  his  good  intentions  were  employed^  I  con- 
sidered myself  as  obliged  to  him,  as  it  was  a 
proof  of  his  zeal,  and  his  opinion  of  the  truth 
and  justice  of  my  cause ;  but  I  neither  con- 
sented, desired,  or  encouraged  him  to  enter 
into  any  negociation  whatever ;  but,  my  lords, 
when  the  business  began  to  wear  a  different 
face,  when  all  the  motions  for  informations  la 
the  court  of  KingVbench  had  been  discharged, 
when  the  great  impression  which  the  defence 
made  on  the  whole  court  had  been  felt,  when 
it  was  known  that  some  of  the  first  lawyers  in 
the  kingdom  were  of  opinion  I  was  entitled 
to  a  mandamus,  the  career  of  reven^  was 
necessarily  restrdned ;  when  it  was  Known 
that  notice  had  been  givcn^  that  a  general  en- 
quiiy  would  be  nuide  m  this  House,  into  the 
abuses  in  the  management  of  Greenwich 
Hospital,  I  then  for  the  first  time  began  to 
expect  that  a  negociation  would  be  set  on 
foot;  it  was  impossible  that  so  corrupt  a 
scene,  and  the  history  of  so  many  abuses, 
could  wilUnely  be  exposed  before  this  great 
tribunal,  and  subjectea  to  that  censure  which 
might  be  dictated  by  \he  wisdom  and  inte* 
grity  of  your  lordships ;  but  I  was  so  far  from 
attemptmg  to  set  such  a  negociation  on  foot, 
that  I  very  well  knew,  if  a  proposal  came 
from  me,  the  very  measure  itself  would  pre- 
vent it,  and  I  do  most  solemnly  declare,  that 
I  did  not,  directly  or  indirectly,  commission 
or  order  Mr.  Murphy  to  renew  any  of  those 
applications  which  he  had  himself  begun,  and 
which  I  found  he  had  made  the  topic  of  his 
frequent  conversation ;  I  was  not  however 
surprized,  when  Mr.  Murphy  informed  me, 
that  a  Mr.  Butler  had  entered  into  converssr* 
tion  with  him  upon  the  affairs  of  Greenwich 
Hospital,  and  I  do  solemnly  declare,  I  under- 
stood firom  Mr.  Murphy,  that  Mr.  Butler's 
proposals  came  strugbt  and  direct  from  lord 
Sandwich;  axid  I  was  the  more  confirmed  in 
this  belief,  as  I  had,  three  or  four  days  before,t 
heard  it  rumoured  in  the  Hospital,  through 
channels  which  I  knew  to  be  authentic^  tluit 
it  was  intended  to  remove  captain  Bail  he,  by 
giving  him  an  equivalent  in  Ueu ;  and  howip* 
ever  accidental  the  meeting  at  the  coffee* 
house  then  might  be  on  the  part  of  Mr.  ftlui^ 


383] 


18  GEORGE  IIL      .    The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaiUie,  [384 


phy,  it  did  not  then  appear  to  me  to  be  so  on 
the  part  of  Mr.  Butler ;  that  Mr.  Murjphy  had 
been  my  counsel,  must  have  been  a  lact  well 
known  to  Mr.  Butler,  though  Mr.  Butler's 
connections  with  lord  Sandwich  were  un- 
known to  Mr.  Murphy,  as  he  himself  inform- 
ed your  lordships;  but  admitting  that  the 
meeting  was  perfectly  accidental,  it  was  I, 
and  not  lord  Sandwich,  that  received  infor- 
mation from  it;  I  learned  that  lord  Sand- 
wich was  now,  for  the  first  time,  induced  to 
give  me  a  compensation;  he  was  the  only 
agitator  in  the  matter ;  he  sent  for  Mr.  Mur- 
phy, but  I  made  no  application  to  Mr.  Butler, 
under  the  circumstances  in  which  the  matter 
was  stated  to  me ;  I  had  no  kind  of  doubt  but 
that  it  was  a  deliberative  message,  and  that  it 
was  at  length  really  intended  to  offer  me  an 
honourable  and  an  adequate  compensation  in 
lieu  of  my  office. 

I  therefore  held  myself  bound  by  the  ori- 
ginal proposal  to  lord  Sandwich,  which  I  had 
made  to  his  lordship  long  before  the  prosecu- 
tion, in  circumstances  very  different  from  the 
E resent;  I  had  undergone  a  long  train  of 
arassing,  expensive,  and  injurious  treat- 
ment ;  I  had  resisted  a  very  virulent  legal  at- 
tack, and  my  mind  now  glowed  with  hope, 
that  the  great,  and  almost  the  only  object  of 
my  wishes  on  this  side  the  grave,  the  refor- 
mation of  the  abuses  in  Greenwich  Hospital, 
would  at  length  be  accomplished  bv  the  pro- 
posed enquiry  at  your  lordships'  bar;  and 
that  the  great  root  of  every  other  evil,  the  in- 
troduction of  landmen,  which  had  been  in 
some  measure  sanctioned  by  the  alterations 
in  the  charter,  Would  be  totally  removed,  and 
effectual  precautions  taken  to  shut  out  every 
possible  sanction  to  the  like  abuses  for  the 
tiiture  ;  under  these  circumstances  I  listened 
with  reluctance  to  the  considerations  of  pru- 
dence which  were  suggested  to  me ;  the  most 
prevailing  of  which  ]^ere,  that  though  my 
printed  Case,  and  the  subsequent  enquiry,  had 
convinced  many  people  of  the  exbtence  of 
the  abuses,  yet  the  pride  of  power  was  too 
great  to  yield  immediately  to  those  convic- 
tions; uiider  those  circumstances  the  nego- 
ciation  was  proceeded  on.  Mr.  Murphy  wait- 
ed on  lord  Sandwich  at  his  desire,  without 
my  knowledge,  and  the  two  memorandums 
which  have  been  read  to  your  lordships  by 
Mr.  Butler,  were  drawn  up  b)r  my  consent, 
but  at  their  requisition.  On  this  paper  I  beg 
leave  to  observe,  that  it  was  so  far  from  being 
understood  bv  any  of  the  parties  that  captain 
Baillie  was  the  first  mover  or  a  petitioner  in 
this- negociation,  that  the  paper  which  Mr. 
Butler  called  my  ultimatum,  drawn  by  him- 
self, begins  with  the  words,  **  Captain  Baillie 
is  willing  to  resign  his  office  upon  an  equiva- 
lent compensation  to  be  given  beforehand.'' 
This  is  certainly  not  the  language  of  solici- 
tation ;  if  my  lord  Sandwich  meant  to  act 
with  the  fairness,  openness,  and  delicacy  of  a 
superior  mind  on  this  occasion,  it  seems  rea- 
sonable to  expect  that  he  would  haT«  &h  that 


whatever  was  proper  to  be  done  ought  to  be 
done  immediately,  and  that  he  ought  not  to 
have  claimed  confidence  under  the  circum- 
stances of  the  negociation. 

I  found  it  was  expected  that  I  should  per- 
mit the  report  of  the  committee  to  be  prgited 
without  reply  or  expostulation;  that  is,  I  was 
to  permit  myself  to  be  proclaimed  a  liar,  and 
a  base,  groundless  calumniator,  throughout 
the  kingdom;  such  a  proposal  was  the 
highest  insult  that  could  be  offered  to  a  man 
ot  honour,  who  felt  the  fullest  conviction  of 
the  truth  of  all  his  complaints,  and  who  had 
preserved  through  life  a  fair  and  unblemished 
reputation  as  the  first  and  dearest  object  of 
his  attention. 

My  lords,  it  is  with  great  surprize  that  I 
have  heard  myself  accused  of  treachery  by 
Mr.  Murphy.;  there  is  not  a  man  in  the  world 
scorns  so  base  and  criminal  a  meanness  more 
than  I  do ;  when  it  was  found  that  the  nego- 
ciation ended  only  in  the  most  inadmissible 
and  insulting  proposals,  Mr.  Murphy  did  him- 
self draw  out  an  examination  for  Mr.  Butler. 
The  negociation,  in  an  early  stage  of  the  en- 
quiry, had  been  stated  in  this  House ;   the 
circumstances  were  denied  by  lord  Sandwich; 
my  character  was  at  stake ;  and  the  rev.  Mr. 
Cooke  and  Mr.  Butler,  connected  as  they  are 
with  lord  Sandwich,  were  not  witnesses  to 
support  me  in  the  truth  of  my  assertion ;  my 
brother    might  justly  be    supposed    to    be 
equally  prejudiced  in  my  favour.     I  conceive 
that  under  these  circumstances  I  had  a  right 
to  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Murphy ;  and  I  was 
equally  surprized  and  alarmed  to  find  that 
he  felt  the  utmost  reluctance  at  being  exar- 
mined ;  I  did  not  wish  him  to  entertam  any 
scruples,  or  to  affect  any  secrecy  on  my  ac- 
count ;  but  I  found  his  scruples  and  his  deli- 
cacies arose  on  account  of  lord  Sandwich ;  I 
had  not  been  at  all  prepared  for  a  delicacy  of 
this  kind,  as  the  conversations  \vhich  I  had  hi- 
therto had  with  Mr.  Murphy  respecting  similar 
transactions,  had  deeply  impressed  my  mind 
with  very  different  ideas  firom  what  Mr.  Mur- 


ference  which  he  had  held  with  his  lordship, 
which  conference  appears  to  me  to  have  de- 
tached him  entirely  from  my  interests. 

My  lords,  in  this  situation,  alarmed  as  I  was 
for  my  own  character,  I  was  glad  to  find  that 
I  had  accidentally  preserved  the  paper  of  exa- 
mination intended  for  Mr.  Butler.  Mr.  Mur- 
phy has  told  your  lordships  that  it  was  a  pa- 
per artfully  contrived  to  draw  Mr.  Butler  into 
a  state  of  the  matter  quite  different  from  what 
it  really  was.  My  lords,  I  despise  all  such 
mean  arts ;  and  if  I  had  understood  it  at  the 
time,  I  would  on  no  account  have  permitted 
it  to  have  been  done ;  and  I  most  solemnly 
protest  to  your  lordships,  upon  my  oath,  (as  I 
now  am)  I  understood  the  paper  literally; 
and  I  was  greatly  surprized  to  near  Mr.  Mur- 
phy ^knowledge  that  he  meant  to  treat  » 


385]         mpecHfig  ihe  Royal  HotpUtd  at  Greenmch.        A.  D.  1778. 


[S86 


bnidier  of  hk  own  profeftsum  in  a  way  which 
«p|)earsto  me  to  be  redly  treacherous,  and  in 
any  odier  frafessaom^  would  be  held  to  be  base 
and  unwamntable. 

My  lords,  in  this  paner  Mr.  Murphy  jpro- 
pQses  thai  Mr.  BuUeFs  nand-writing  shall  be 
]voduced  against  him;  I  felt  myself  compelled 
to  take  the  same  advantage  of  Mr.  Murphy, 
that  he  had  himself  proposed  to  take  of  Mr. 
Butler.  Mr.  Murphy's  evidence  and  conduct 
drove  me  to  the  disagreeable  necesntv ;  and 
your  lordships  have  seen  that  his  mind  is  now 
more  hostile  to  me  than  that  of  Mr.  Butler, 
whose  evidence  was  liberal,  compared  with 
Mr.  Murphy's.  My  lords,  I  trust  I  shall  stand 
iiilly  justified  in  your  lordships'  opinion,  when 
it  is  consklered,  that  if  it  had  not  been  in  my 
power  thus  accidentally  to  compare  the  testi- 
mony of  Mr.  Murpliy  by  this  paper,  I  must 
have  appeared  to  have  advanced  a  most  foul 
and  improbable  assertion,  for  which  I  should 
net  have  been  able  to  have  produced  a  sha^ 
dow  of  proof;  I  should  othcfTwise  have  had 
no  support,  than  the  conscientiousness  of  my 
own  nund,  that  the  whole  was  true. 

Mt  lords,  no  part  of  the  evidence  which 
has  been  given,  at  yotir  lordships'  bar,  has 
furpiized  me  so  much  as  that  nart  of  Mr. 
BuUer's,  who  has  sworn,  that  ail  orders  of 
men,  in  Greenwich  Hospital,  had  complained 
of  captain  Bullie.  My  lords,  if  this  be  true, 
I  am  ready  to  admit,  that  all  I  have  said 
about  Greenwich  Hospital  is  false,  and  I 
-would  eladly  join  issue  UDon  this  ground.  I 
wUl  tell  your  lordshijps  wno  they  are,  viz.  five 
fiea  officers,  out  of  fourteen ;  three  civil  of&- 
cers,  tlmt  have  been  at  sea ;  and  a  combina^ 
tion  of  landmen,  consisting  of  eighteen  or 
twenty  persons,  out  of  8,300,  or  9,400  souls. 
^Iiese,  my  lords,  are  the  men ;  these  are  the 
combination  alluded  to  by  the  noble  lord, 
that  have  prevented  and  obstructed  captain 
BaiUie  in  his  duty,  and  which  was  to  be  as- 
e^ed,  as  a  public  reason,  for  his  resisnation. 
1^  lords,  except  these  persons,  and  meir  im- 
mediate dependents,  I  trust  that  my  being  re- 
Stored  to  tne  office  would  be  heard  with  sin- 
cere joy  by  all  those  who  are  the  real  objects 
ofthecbui^. 

My  lords,  that  ever  I  thought  of  resigning 
my  office,  was  so  far  from  proceeding  from 
any  dislike  to  the  Hospital,  tnat  my  real  wish 
always  been,  that  I  might  live  and  die  in 
:e  there,  and  rest  amons  the  pensioners ; 

consider  it  as  one  family,  the  most  venerable 
and  respectable  in  the  world;  a  family  of 
brave  old  seamen,  who  are  supported  by  their 
country,  as  a  reward  for  their  past  services, 
at  the  head  of  which  I  genersuly  presided ; 
and  I  had  no  earthly  wish  equal  to  promoting 
their  comfort  and  happiness ;  and  no  proposal 
however  advantageous,  which  could  oe  made 
me,  would  dve  me  equal  satisfaction  to  being 
restored  to  uiem.  without  the  apprehension  of 
being  obstructed  in  the  performance  of  my 
duty. 

My  lords,  I  am  also  represented,  by  Mr. 
VOL.  XXL 


-peace 
Icons 


Butler,  as  a  man  of  the  most  violeirt  and  un- 
eovemable  temper,  without  his  having  pro- 
duced a  single  instance  to  support  it;  lord 
Sandwich  himself  has  given  repeated  proofs. 
under  his  hand,  to  the  direct  contrary;  ana 
tlie  two  late  governors  have  also  approved  my 
eonduct  in  the  Hospital,  as  appears  by  lord 
Sandwich's  and  tneir  letters,  in  October, 
1779,  ready  to  be  produced,  as  well  as  the 
strong  words  of  my  warrant  by  which  I  had 
the  honour  to  be  appointed  by  lord  Sandwich. 
I  have  likewise  the  misfortune  to  be  accused 
of  ingratitude ;  am  I,  my  lords,  in  honour  or 
in  conscience  bound  to  see  two  thousand  Bri- 
tish seamen  abused,  in  all  their  interests,  by 
way  of  shewing  my  gratitude  to  a  noble  lord, 
after  he  had  turned  a  deaf  ear  to  my  repeated 
remonstrances  ?  Neither  has  my  professional 
character,  as  an  officer,  escaped  uie  censure  of 
the  noble  lord,  in  the  most  public  manner; 
and,  I  therefore  hope,  your  lordships'  good- 
ness and  indulgence  will  be  pleased  to  permit 
me  to  produce  a  letter  from  the  late  secretary 
of  the  Admiralty,  Mr.  Cleveland,  wherein  it 
appears,  that  my  character,  as  ad  officer,  is 
ummpeached  at  the  Admiralty*. 

[Captain  Bailiie  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Godfy  c^led  in. 

Whether  you  Icnow  what  the  contract  price 
is,  now  given  for  shoes  and  stockinss  ? — ^The 
contract  price  for  shoes  is  3f .  9d.  and  Si.  9id* 
for  the  extra  shoes. 

What  has  it  been  heretofore? — The  present 
contract  has  been  for  two  years,  which  are 
near  expired;  the  contract  before  this  was 
St,  7d.  and  9i.  7 id,;  the  contractor  tells  me^ 
he  contracted  six  or  eight  years  ago,  and  then 
it  was  3i.  7d.f  Si.  9c{.,  and  4t.  9a.;  the  con- 
tract price  for  shoes,  in  common,  is  much 
about  the  same  as  the  present;  but  that  for 
the  extra  shoes,  which  are  very  few^  4i.  7d, 

Has  not  the  contract  price  been  mcreasedf 
— It  is  St,  9d,  and  St,  9{d,  now. 

What  is  the  price  of  stockings  ? — ^The  pen- 
sioners' blue  hose,  18s.  a  dozen ;  boys'  blue 
yarn,  lOid,;  grey,  lOd,;  ditto  worsted,  it.  Ad. 

What  has  it  been  heretofore  ? — The  present 
contract  price  is  18f.;  the  last  was,  I  think, 
19i.  but  lam  not  quite  certain. 

Before  that  what  was  it? — It  varied  veiy 
little,  but  1  cannot  say  exactly  what;  it  waa 
19s.  6<2.,  or  SOf. 

In  general,  has  the  price  been  less  than  it 
was?—- I  think  much  about  the  same;   the, 

I )resent  contract  price  is  18s.;  I  think  the 
ast  contract  price  was  19s. ;  I  think  it  may 
have  been  19s.  ^d, ;  I  think  I  remember  its 
having  been  $0s*.  , 

Does  the  money  all  go  through  your  hands 
that  pays  the  contractors  for  shoes  and  Stocks 
»i         ■  ■   ■  ■     "«  .    ■  ■ 

*  He  WM  not  permitted  to  produce  the  letter. 
Qrig.  Ed,    See  this  Letter,  p.  14. 

t  Of  Uiese  dioes  and  ttoekings,  which  ere  the  worst 
that  are  tver  aade,  Ihe  poor  mSB  have  bat  threp  pairs 
In  two  yean.    Orig,  Bd, 

%  C 


387] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaUtie-,        [388 


ings,  as  well  as  th«  meat?— It  does  not,  nor 
for  the  meat  neither;    the   bill    is   passed, 
through  my  office,  but  not  the  money.* 

The  contract  price  has  been  always  fluc- 
tuating, I  suppose? — ^Always;  sometimes 
more,  I  believe,  and  sometimes  less. 

Mention  an  instance  where  it  has  been 
less  ? — The  stockings  were  19».  last  contract, 
which  was  two  years  ajgo. 

But  whether  there  is  an  instance  less  than 
the  present  time  ? — ^I  believe  it  may  be  so, 
but  don't  recollect.      [Mr.  Godby  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Ball  called  in. 

Do  you  know  what  the  present  price  of  the 
contract  for  shoes  is  ? — I  believe  3s.  9d,  and 
St.  9id, ;  Ss.  9d.  for  the  common,  and  Ss.  9id, 
for  the  extra,  which  are  very  few ;  those  are 
high  heeled  shoes. 

What  has  been  the  price  heretofore  ? — I  be- 
lieve Si.  7{d.y  and  Ss.  8i(i.,  the  contract  prior 
to  the  last. 

What  was  it  before  that  ? — ^I  cannot  recol- 
lect ;  but  I  believe  about  d«.  9d.y  or  there- 
abouts. 

How  high  has  it  ever  been,  in  your  me- 
mory?—I  do  remember  it  4«.  for  a  common 
pdr  of  shoes. 

When  did  you  remember  that? — About 
18  years  ago;  I  was  appointed  by  Mr.  Bell, 
a  former  steward. 

How  long  did  that  price  last? — It  was  a 
standing  contract  for  some  years;  of  late  they 
have  contracted  every  two  years. 

How  many  years  did  that  last? — Several 
years  before  I  came  into  office. 

How  many  years  after  ? — I  believe  four  or 
five  vears. 

When  was  it  altered? — ^That  man  who 
served  it  went  to  Quebec;  the  contract  was 
put  up,  and  the  lowest  proposal  was  received ; 
and,  n-om  that  time,  it  nas  been  the  constant 
practice  to  contract  every  two  years,  every 
general  serving. 

About  what  time  did  it  happen  that  the 
price  was  lowered  ? — I  believe  ten  or  twelve 
years  since. 

What  was  the  price  two  year^  ago  ? — 3s,  Hd, 
and  35  Sjd.f 

What  is  the  price  of  stockings  now  ? — The 
present  price,  I  think,  is  19s.  a  dozen. 

What  did  that  use  to  be  formerly?—!  re- 
member it  at  18s.  a  dozen. 

How  Ions  is  that  ago  ? — ^About  six  years. 

How  hijpi  do  you  ever  remember  it? — I 
don't  remember  it  higher  than  20s.  a  dozen. 

Are  the  shoes  and  stockings  the  same 
quality  ? — ^Thev  are  received  by  tlie  same  pat- 
tern as  formerly. 

*  It  18  notorious,  that  Mr.  Godbj,  for  these  and 
other  tiioh  parpoiea,  receives  9fiOOL  regularly  every 
nionUi.     Orig,  Ed. 

t  When  leather  was  cheap,  Uie  eontnot  was  at 
4s.  per  pair ;  as  it  grew  dearer,  the  price  was  lowered 
to  Ss.  7d.  per  pair;  since  which  the  nen's  shoes 
liave  not  lasted  half  the  tine  they  ought,  tint  is  thsoo 
piur  fur  two  years.    Orig,  £</• 


And  are  full  as  good  as  ever?— They  are 
received  bv  the  same  pattern  as  formerly,  and  j 
those  stockings  that  don't  appear  equal  to  the  ' 
pattern  are  rejected;  and  if  any  complaint  is 
made  of  them,  an  application  is  made  to  the 
board,  and  the  contractors  are  generally  sent 
for  to  give  their  reasons. 

I  suppose  the  contract  price  varies  according 
to  the  marketable  price  of  the  commodity?— 
Yes, 

I  suppose  leather  was  dearer,  when  shoes 
were  nighest?'^As^  leather  b  dearer  or 
cheaper,  so  the  contract  varies;  and  the  pay- 
ment of  the  Hospital  being  so  punctual,  it  in- 
duces contractors  to  accept  it  upon  verv  low 
terms.  [Mr.  Ball  withdrew.] 

Philip  Stephens^  esq.  called  in. 

Are  not  you  secretary  to  the  board  of  Ad- 
miralty ? — I  am. 

W^ere  you  present  at  the  board  of  Admiralty 
upon  the  25th  of  December  last,  when  captain 
BailUe  was  dismissed  ? — Yes,  I  was. 

.  Whether  captain  Baillie  had,  previous  to 
'that  dismission,  been  summonea  to  appear 
before  t^e  boara  of  Admiralty? — ^No;  he  was 
not. 

Did  the  Admiralty  communicate  to  captain 
BailUe  any  complaint  agsunst  him  for  misbe- 
haviour previous  to  his  dismission?— I  do  not 
recollect  that  they  did. 

The  Earl  of  Sandwich.  Are  you  a  prize- 
agent?— No. 

Are  you  positive  you  are  not  ? — I  am  cer- 
tain I  am  not.  I  was  a  prize-aeeut  in  the 
beginning  of  last  war,  and  in  the  war  pre- 
ceaing  that ;  but  as  soon  as  I  had  the  honour 
of  bemg  appointed  one  of  the  secretaries  of 
the  Admiralty,  I  declined  all  prize-agency. 

And  you  have  not  been  a  prize-agent  since 
you  have  been  secretary  to  tne  Admiralty  ?— 
Excepting  for  a  day  or  two ;  but  I  declined  it 
as  soon  as  I  could  write  to  my  friends. 

[Philip  Stephens,  esq.  withdrew.] 

Sir  William  James  called  in. 

Whether  you  were  a  member  of  the  com- 
mittee to  enquire  mto  the  complaints  of  cap- 
tain BailUe  relative  to  Greenwich  Hospital  ?  • 
— I  was  named  as  one  of  the  conunittee;  I 
was  not  present  at  the  time ;  as  I  bad  beea 
prettY  much  engaged  in  other  avocalioDs,I 
should  have  begged  to  be  excused,  but  not 
being  there,  certainlv  I  did  not  make  any  ob- 
jections, but  attended  as  often  as  I  could. 

I  he&  you  wiU  inform  the  House  how  tfHea 
you  did  attend  the  committee  at  Greenwich 
Hospital?^!  think  I  was  at  three;  the  mi- 
nutes will  shew  thai.  * 

Were  you  not  present  at  the  ^neral  court 
when  that  committee  was  appointed  ? — T%q  ; 
I  was  not* 

'  I  beg  you  would  infbrm  the  committee 
whether  captain  Baillie  did,  not»  when  you 
were  present^  several  times  offer  to  produce 
witnesses  which  were  refused  to  be  heard?— 
I  don't  know  that  that  was  the  fact. 


I 


S8Bf]        mpedhg  the  Royal  Hernial  ai  Greenxoich.        A.  D.  1T7S. 


[390 


Doyoa  not  tecollect  any  instances  where 
the  evidence  offered  to  be  produced  by  captain 
BailHe'  was  refosed?-— I  certainly  do  not;  I 
iteoQect  that  there  w«re  altercations  at  the 
board,  when  I  iaacv  Mr.  Baillie  might  have 
intrDducedy  or  endeavoured  to  have  intro- 
daoedy  matter  extraneous  to  the  point  then 
under  discussion,  which  gave  a  good  deal  of 
intemiption  to  ousiness,  but  I  do  not  know 
that  any  evidence  was  refused. 

Whether  the  evidence  of  the  blind  men 
were  heard  relative  to  that  part  of  the  busi- 
ness?— ^I  think  that  was  tde  last  committee 
that  I  attended  at.  The  charge  respecting 
the  inconvenience  that  they  had  laboured 
under  was  admitted  or  allowed  to  be  a  griev- 
aiice»  and  that  was  understood  by  the  com- 
mittee to  have  beeli  t<emedied;  the  fact  was 
admitted. 

Was  any  report  made  by  the  committee 
thai  that  rart  of  captain  Baillie's  complaint 
was  well-tbunded? — ^Ujpon  my  word  I  have 
not  seen  the  minutes  or  the  committee  since 
I  attended  at  the  boanl,  they  wiil  speak  for 
themselves. 

Do  you  recollect  whether  that  fact  was  ad- 
nutlecf  at  Uie  time  by  the  committee  ? — It 
was  not  disputed,  it  was  not  entered  into ;  it 
being  understood  that  a  rail  *  had  been  put 
up,  and  the  grievance  remedied,  it  was  thought 
unnecessary  to  so  fardier  into  it;  it  being  so 
understood,  and  having  been  so  represented 
to  the  committee. 

Do  you  recollect  whether  any  minutes  were 
taken  by  the  committee  that  that  feet  was 
admitted;  that  that  complaint  had  been 
oouDded? — ^I  really  don't  know;  I  presume 
m  minutes  will  speak  to  that  fact ;  the  de- 
puty secretaiT  attended,  and  took  minutes ;  I 
nave  not  looked  at  them  since. 

Who  was  that  deputy  secretary? — ^Mr. 
CodLe,  I  think,  was  the  person  that  took  the 
minutes. 

Has  he  any  employment  in  Greenwich 
Hospital  ? — ^He  acts  as  assistant  secretary. 

To  whom  ?— To  the  board  of  directors. 

Were  not  parts  of  captain  Baillie's  book 
eomf^aintj^  a^nst  the  board  of  directors  ? — 
Certainly  it  was  so  understood. 

Do  you  think  that  directors  were  proper  to 
form  a  committee  to  enquire  into  their  own 
conduct? — I  believe  they  did  not  think  it  was 
s  right  thing  for  them  to  enquire,  or  to  de- 
cide upon  their  own  conduct,  and  therefore 
ther  oid  not  enter  into  that  part  of  captkin 
Baime*s  book,  at  least  at  any  committee  at 
I  attended. 


*  So  ig;nonuit  are  the  direciori  of  Gnenwicb 
Ho^tid,  evon  in  respect  to  the  execalion  of  their 
•wn  orders,  that  upon  the  reconiiiendation  of  Mr. 
Uylne,  the  clerk  of  the  ^nforks,  1,200  yards  of  posU 
taid  nib  were  deatrojed,  (which  bad  been,  formerij, 
creeled  for  the  conibri  and  aeearity  of  the  lame  and 
hiiad  peMHNien,  wheo  proper  attention  was  paid  to 
their  infiraitiea)  are  by  the  committee  eomfestod  into 
OMBBikniL    Orig.Efi. 


Were  not  all  the  members  of  that  commit- 
tee directors  ? — ^I  believe  they  were. 

Were  there  not  very  serious  complaints 
against  them  in  that  book  ? — ^I  think,  without 
goin^  into  names,  there  was  some  kind  of  dis- 
crimination, there  were  some  exceptions  I 
think  in  the  charges  that  were  brought  against 
the  directors  in  the  publication. 

But  I  would  ask  you  whether  in  general 
there  were  not  several  charges  against  thef 
board  of  directors  in  ^neral.  as  directors? — I 
have  not  read  the  book  lately,  it  will  speak 
for  itself;  certainlv  what  appears  in  the  pub- 
lication every  reader  will  give  his  own  idea 
or  interpretation  to;  that  undoubtedly  the 
directors  did  consider  themselves  as  charged 
generally. 

Do  you  think  that  men  who  think  them- 
selves chai^ged  generally,  are  proper  judges  to 
try  the  man  who  charges  them,  though  it  be 
not  upon  those  charges  that  affect  themselves? 
^I  should  be  very  glad  to  be  excused  answer- 
ing any  Questions  of  opinion :  it  certainly  is 
matter  ot  opinion ;  I  observed  before,  tiiat 
as  well  as  I  recollect  the  charge,  it  does  admit 
of  discrimination ;  there  are  some  persons 
marked  as  men  (I  think  the  expression  is)  of 
worth  and  honour ;  when  the  committee  was 
named,  captain  Baillie  had  the  privilege  of 
excepting  to  anv  that  he  chose  to  except 
against,  as  I  understood ;  and  it  may  be  pre- 
sumed, that  as  he  had  mentioned  the  charac- 
ters in  a  light  of  some  discrimination,  he 
might  have  chosen  a  proper  committee  out  of 
those  directors;  or  might  have  excepted  to 
any  that  he  thousht  improper :  but  that  is 
certainly  matter  ofopinion,  upon  which  every 
noble  lord  in  the  House,  or  any  gentieman, 
can  judge  as  well  as  I  can.  I  shall  be  very 
glad  to  speak  to  sdl  the  facts  I  know ;  and  I 
am  sure  I  shall  do  it  in  the  most  impartial 
manner,  without  the  least  kind  of  reserve. 

I  am  very  sensible  my  questiou  to  sir  Wil- 
liam James  is  entirely  matter  of  opinion ;  and 
I  asked  it  of  sir  William  James,  because  I 
have  a  very  great  respect  for  his  opinion ;  he 
will  answer  it,  or  not,  as  he  thinks  proper ; 
that  is  in  his  own  breast.  My  Question  is, 
whether  the  directors,  thinking  tnemselves, 
in  general,  aggrieved,  were  impartial  judges 
to  try  the  conduct  of  that  man  whom,  they 
supposed,  had  aggrieved  them,  though  it  was 
not  in  the  points  upon  which  he  had  attacked 
them  ? — ^That  part  of  the  charge  which  re- 
spected themselves,  I  have  observed  already, 
tnat  they  did  not  think  it  decent  to  go  into. 

Am  I  to  understand  you,  that  you  wish  to 
decline  giving  your  opinion^  whether  they 
were  proper  judges  of  entering  into  the  other 
parts  of  the  business  ? — I  do .  not  know  any 
reason  why  they  were  not  proper  and  com- 
petent to  decide  upon  any  other  parts  of  the 
charge. 

Do  you  know  whether  Mr.  Cooke,  who 
took  the  minutes,  has  not  some  other  employ- 
ment under  some  other  person  in  the  Hos- 
pital ?-rUpon  my  wordy  i  do  not;  I  know 


U^K»GSIIL         Tie  Om  ^CqUi»  Jhmmi  Baiffte,        ^BM 


1^^  whstefCTy  but  ss 


whether  the  evidence  of 

heard  ? — Not  while 

I  don't  recollect 

: — _  - ,^    J 

te  jQtt  recollect  whether  captain  Baillie 
'  Dol  ffcofoee  to  produce  that  witness^— I 


Did  joQ  attend  the  bat  day  ?— I  believe  I 


Do  ^rou  recollect  the  manner  in  which  ihe 
eoaunittee  was  broke  up  ? — ^For  my  own  part, 
I  did  not  conclude  the  committee  as  broke 
up;  there  had  been  some  altercation  at  the 
hoard,  between  a  gentleman  that  assisted  Mr. 
Baillie,  and  Mr.  Morgan,  I  think,  respecting 
the  mode  of  proceeding,  or  respectine  the  in- 
Innhiction  oi  matter;  and,  I  think,  the  chair- 
man of  the  committee  conceived,  that  it  gave 
very  great  interruption  to  business;  there  was 
•  very  good  disposition  in  the  committee  to 
hear  every  ^ing,  and  to  decide  impartially ; 
hut,  he  conceived,  that  ^ve  so  much  inter- 
niption,  that  I  fancy  he  mishtmake  use  of  an 
expression,  that  he  did  not Icnow  any  business 
tiiere  was  for  lawyers ;  for,  I  believe,  he  con- 
ceived the  gentleman  that  assisted  Mr.  Baillie 
to  be  of  that  professbn,  fiom  his  great  abili- 
ties, and  the  great  aasistance  he  appeared  to 
give  the  Case  of  captain  Baillie;  I  believe  he 
made  use  of  the  expression,  that  he  did  not 
know  what  Aey  did  there.  Upon  Mk  Cow- 
ley's withdrawing,  I  thmk  captain  Baillie  did 
the  same;  but  that  did  not  break  up  the  com- 
mittee, we  continued  doing  bosmess  after 
that. 

I  beg  yon  will  acquaint  the  committee, 
whether  captain  Baillie  was  not  ordered  to 
withdraw,  at  the  aame  time? — I  do  not  recol- 
lect that,  indeed, 

I  think  you  say,  they  continued  to  do  busi- 
teas  after  captain  Baillie  was  rethed  ?— Yes. 

I  beg  to  know  what  that  business  was  }^l 
think  a  great  number  of  the  gentlemen,  that 
constitute  the  military  council  of  the  Hospital, 
Vfere  called  in,  and  examined  with  respect  to 
a  complaint  of  some  veal,  said  to  have  been 
improper,  I  think,  for  the  infirmary ;  Dr.  Hos- 
sack,  thfc  physician  of  the  Hospital,  and  they, 
were  interrogated  with  respect  to  other  mat- 
ters, ,to  know  whether  any  grievances  existed, 
orthey'hadany'complaintstomake;  and,  I 
thinjc,  it  ended  generally  in  their  having  no- 
thing to  comphun  of;  no  complaints  were 
made. 

Whether  any  other  matters  of  enquiry 
werethengone  into?— As  far  as  my  recot 
lection  serves  me,  that  was  the  last  trans- 
action, of  that  committee,  which  was  the  last 
that  I  attended  at. 

y^  hether  I  am  to  understand,  that  this  last 
tran^tion  was  in  the  absence  o£  captain 
Baillie,  and  of  the  gentleman  who  attended 
faini  ?— I  believe  they  were  out  of  the  room. 

Was  any  seport  made  of  that  transaction  P 


—4  ftmcy  that  muit  stand  upon  the  minutoi; 
I  take  it  for  panted. 

I  will  ask  sir  William  Jaaie8»(^t  this  agidn 
is  matter  of  opinion,  which  he  will  answer  or 
iiot,a8heU)inks  proner)  whelher  hethhikg 
it  very  justifiable,  m  that  committee,  to  hava 
examined  into  a  matter  complained  of  in  cap* 
tain  Baillie's  book,  when  he  was  absent,  and 
his  assistant ;  and  to  have  reported  upon  it^ 
without  having  heard  him  ? — ^1  think  tbe  gen- 
tlemen that  I  have  mentioned  before,  con- 
sisted of  eight  or  ten  in  number ;  and  an  op-* 
portunity  was  given  to  th«n,  individually,  t» 
mention  or  prefer  any  complaint  they  hpd  to 
make ;  they  were  asked  if  tney  had  any. 

What  opportunity  had  captain  Baillie  of 

E roving  lus  complaint  respecting  the  veai^  if 
e  was  out  of  the  room  while  it  was  exa- 
mined ? — I  have  already  said  that  I  do  not 
recollect,  nor  do  I  believe,  that  captain  Bail- 
lie  was  desired  to  withdraw  from  thecoma 
mittee. 

Do  you  recollect  the  behaviour  of  Mr. 
Barker  upon  that  occasion  ? — ^He  was  the 
chairman  of  the  committee  at  that  time. 

Do  you  recollect  his  behaviour? — I  do  not 
recollect  any  thine  particular  in  his  beluK 
viour ;  he  appeared  to  be  anxious  and  soli- 
citous to  get  throug;h  the  business. 

Did  you  think  his  behaviour  cool^— Thai 
is  matter  of  opinion  entirely ;  I  saw  nothina, 
in  Mr.  Barkei^s  behaviour,  but  whatibdicatea 
a  ereat  deare  to  investi^te  tmth,  and  to  get 
ria  of  the  business ;  fbr  it|Wna  not  a  busineas 
that  was  a  very  agreeable  one ;  it  took  up  a 
great  dMloftime,  at  best;  and  was  attended 
inth  very  disagreeable  draimstancea ;  hearing 
altercations  and  disputes. 

Mr.  Barker  was  desirous  of  getting  lid  of 
the  business,  as  you  have  exprewed  yourself; 
hut  do  not  you  ttunk  he  was  desirous  of  gettii^g 
rid  of  it  ramer  precipitately  ?  Am  I  to  under- 
stand you  then,  to  give  it  as  vour  opinion  to- 
this  committee,  that  Mr.  Barker's  bdiavioar. 
upoa  that  occasion,  was  moderate^  proper,  ml 
cool  ? — I  wish  the  noble  dnke  woaki  not  u^ 
a  matter  of  opinion.  I  saw  nothing  but  whKt 
tended  to  a  desire  to  cany  on  the  business^ 
with  a  proper  attention  to  facts  and  dis- 
patch. 

Do  you  recollect  that  you  propoaed  that  te> 
men  who  happened  to  be  on  guard  might  be 
called,  as  a  &ir  and  impartkl  manner  of  takioe. 
the  sense  of  many  persons  upon  th«.  aevenu 

S'ievances  and  abuses  chained  in  cttptaiil< 
aillie's  printed  Case  ? — ^At  one  of  the  con*' 
mittees  at  which  I  attended,  a  partieidar  €9ti^ 
plaint,  respecting  the'linen^  was  taken  into 
consioeration ;  the  washing  I  think,  and  tbe 
size  of  the  sheets,  were  sub^ts  of  ^qniiy. 
I  think  I  do  recollect  proposing,  as  I  cona- 
dercd  the  object  of  the  committee  to  be  strict- 
ly to  investigate  the  truth,  and  to  remedy  aogp 
real  existing  grievances,  L  did  propose  thi^ 
any  indifietent  persons  nught  he  called  in; 
but  some  shirts  having  beeu  eikuhited  in  tba 
committee^  which^  at  dOce»  aurr.rtaiBftA  th» 


aB3^        ntpeOmg  the  Rogd  BafpUal  at  Gnmokh.        A.  D^  1719. 


[SM 


nature  of  tintt  bqng.wMlMid>  and  th<  8«e»»  I 
believe  the  oommittee  were  of  opinkH»  they 
were  vei]f  competent  to  decide  upon  that, 
upoa  their  own  observation.  I  examined  a 
shirt  myaelf ;  I  am  not  one  of  the  largest  nor 
the  smallest  of  men ;  the  shirt  which  I  saw, 
appeared  to  be  a  middling  size;  it  cannot  be 
presumed  that  ail  the  men  in  the  Hospital 
are  of  one  size ;  and,  thevefoce^  without  any 
inconTeniencies^  there  may  be  some  difier- 
eoces  in  the  sizes  of  the  shirts;  the  shirts 
that  I  saw  did  not  ap{>ear  to  me  to  be  so  small 
as  to  be  really  deserving  of  complaint.  The 
washing  of  them  was  touoabk ;  certainly,  not 
very  fine ;  but  it  was  understood,  that  when- 
erer  a  complunt  of  washing  was  made,  that 
the  washerman,  who  contracts  alwa^,  took 
the  linen  back  again,  and  rewashed  it,  with- 
out any  chaise  to  the  Hospital  Upon  the 
sul^t  of  the  linen,  also,  I  wished  to  be  sa- 
tisfied myself,  and  I  called  for  the  book»  of 
the  Hospital,  in  which  I  foimd,  as  it  oi^t  to 
be,  indeed,  a  charge  made  against  the  steward, 
fi^r  all  the  linen  received  into  the  Hoepital,  of 
which  he  was  discharged,  by  producing  a  cer* 
tain  number  of  shirt^  and  a  certain  number 
of  sheets^  and  charged  always  with  the  re- 
^due,  if  there  was  any  to  begin  another  ac- 
count ;  the  books  always  appealed  exceedingly 
imilar  and  well  kept. 

I  beg  you  will  acquaint  the  committee, 
wbether  your  proposal  of  examining  the  men 
upon  2H2ud,  as  a  fair  vraj  of  taking  the  first. 
men  that  came,  was  earned  into  execution  f — 
I  believe  I  have  explained  myself  upon  that 
head  before ;  I  do  not  recollect  that  I  said 
upon  guard;  but  I  think,  at  the  lime  when 
the  matter  was  discussing,  I  saw  two  or  three 
pensioners  walking  past  the  window ;  I  said, 
those  were  as  proper  as  any  other,  you  may 
take  in  those,  or  any  other  men  to  ascertain 
the  fi^t  The  answer  was,  the  linen  is  here, 
upon  which  we  could  as  well  judge,  as  if  a 
hundred  evidences  were  examined  xspotk  ft; 
my  proposition,  if  it  deserved  the  name  of  a 
pioponlion,  was  not  opposed  upon  ai^  other 
principle,  than  that  the  shirts  beung  there,  the 
oomnntlee  tfaou^t  themselves  competenli  to 
jndge  upon  the  complaint 

i  be^  ywk  will  recoHect,  whether  captsin 
Baillie  jDUied  in  this  propoBal  or  not  f-^i  be* 
lieve  he  did  acquiesce  in  it. 

I  bes  to  ask  yOu,  whether  you  did  not  look 
upcMfr  that  aa  a  proof,  that  captain  Baillie  was 
wiUhic  to  prove  his  eharge  by  &ir  and  im^ 
partial  enquiry? — I  know  nothing  that  waa 
Mm  upon  il,  that  precluded  him  from  that 
OKOvtoni^. 

00  not  yott>  recoUect  that  the  committee 
would  not  come  into  that  proposal  N*-!  have 
already  given  an  answer  to  txiat;  Ihaveal^ 
ready  staled  the  circumstance  aa  it  paissed 
exactly.^ 

Thia  isca  matter  of  &ct,  I  beg  jrou  will  be 
aa  good  as  to  be  particular.  Did  you  mean 
tb  9Kff  that  the  committee  dad  not'ol^fect  to 
the  eaOlinyin  of  those  penKms?<«^Theve  was 


no  question  a^tated,  nor  nn  sense  of  the  com* 
mittee  taken  upon  it.  Gentlemen  mentioned 
their  different  opinions ;  and  I  have  already 
stated,  that'iiwas  considered  as  unnecessary^ 
the  linen  being  ia  the  room ;  but  the  linen 
beifl^  therc^  I  presume^  it  was  considered  as 
the  best  evidence  or  testimony  of  the  fact  that 
could  be  adduced;  I  did  not  hear  it  objected 
to  upon  any  other  ground  than  that. 

Am  I  to  understand  that  it  was  objected 
to? — It  certainly  vras  not  complied  with;  and 
indeed,  in  the  manner  that  I  have  had  the 
honour  to  state,  I  mentioned  it  as  an  idea^. 
but  did  not  press  it. 

But  did  not  captain  Baillie  press  it?— { 
think  he  mentionea  it  as  a  proper  measurei 

I  think  you  have  sud,  ycHi  oo  not  recpUeet 
who  it  was  that  did  produce  the  shirt  that  was 
examined? — ^I  do  not;  there  was  a  huge 
basket  of  linen,  as  well  as  I  recollect; 

Can  you  take  upon  yourself  to  say,  that 
that  basket  was  not  produced  by  Mr.  Godby, 
the  steward  ? — I  really  do  not  know  how  it 
came  into  the  room. 

Can  you  take  upon  yourself  to  say,  that 
captain  Baillie  did  not  ofier  to  pixMluce  other 
shirts  that  were  deficient  ?— Not  tiurt  I  re^ 
collect 

I  beg  ^ou  will  inform  the  committee  ^that 
your  opinion  has  been  of  captain  Baillie'v 
conduct,  in  detecting  the  fiauds  of  the  bot- 
chers, and  canning  on  the  prosecutions  agaiiia^ 
,  thraa  ? — ^I  have  alwqrs  considered  it  in  a  very 
meritorious  light. 

I  be^  to  know  what  ^our  opinion  is  of  cap^  , 
tain  Ifaullie's  c6nduct,  in  geneml,  rsspectiHy 
the  pensioners? — ^I  never  neard  an v  tning  ur 
the  prehidice  of  captein  Baillie  in  the  execo* 
tion  of  his  office  as  lieutenant-governor. 

You  have  said  you  did  not  ap|>fehend  tbr 
conmiittee  was  concluded  at  the  time  it  was ;. 
I  desire  to  know  vour  reason  for  not  thinking 
it  concluded  ^-*I  beUeve  it  was  not  conclu^d ; 
I  think  there  was  another  committee  held 
afterwards  at  one  of  the  meetings  in  London, 
but  I  am  not  sure. 

Was  the  seventh  day  of  the-  eommillee'a 
meeting  the  last  time  that  you  was  there?—* 
It  was  ttie  sevenUi  day. 

I  have  not  heaard  before  of  thotfe.  being  a. 
sitting  any  wheie  after  this  day  ?  Do  yw 
know  of  there  beine  any  other  sidJiiig  sifter' 
the  seventh  day  ?->Not  at  the  Hospital,  B  h»* 
lieve  not;  but  there  was  a  committee  after 
that  day;  I  tiiink  at  Sahers^haU,  in  towit. 

Were  yoiriftiere?^!  believe  I  was^ there  ar 
the  first  of  it;  what  was  dime  in  ilT  I  tmMy 
doi/tknow. 

Was  captain  Bulhe  at  the  meetinof  of  the 
committee  on  that  eighth  da^? — I  cannot 
say ;  I  staid  but  a  very  little  time,  if  I  waa 
^ere  myself;  I  ttuiik  I  was  there  for  ft  verr 
little  while,  but  being  engaged  otherwise,  t 
could  ncft  stay. 

Whether  you  ev«r  saw  the  report  of  tfas 
ckmimittee?--4  heard  the  report  read. 

Whether  thHtreportmentions  any  proceed* 


395}  Itf  GEOROit  IIL  The  Cdu  ^Captain  Thomas  BaUUe, 

ii|g8  on  this  eighth  day?— I  C$111101  cli»)geBt^ 
viiemory;  it  is  some  time  since  I  fceard  it 
read.  [^WiDiam  James  withdrew.] 

Captain  Baillie  called  in  again. 


Whether  you  were  present  at  the  eiehth 
meeting  of  the  committee  at  Salters-haii  r — I 
was  not 

Were  you  summoned  to  that  meeting  ? — I 
was  not  summoned;  I  waited  upon  the  go- 
^eyaot*  sir  Charles  Hardy,  to  know  the  reason 
why  1  was  not* summoned u{{pn  that  business; 
he  told  me  he  disapproved  very  much,  that 
eveiy  oliier  director  of  the  Hospital  should  be 
particularly  summoned,  and  I  have  no  sum- 
mons. Mr.  Wells,  one  of  the  directors  of  the 
Hospital,  and  one  of  the  committee,  told  me, 
in  passing  by,  in  his  carriage,  after  the  com- 
mittee broke  up,  on  the  seventh  day,  that 
there  would  be  no  more  meetings  of  the  com- 
mittee at  the  Hospital,  but  that  they  should 
have  another  meeting  at  Saltors'-hall,  that 
they  should  not  want  me  there.  « 

Whether  the  seventh  meeting  of  the  com- 
mittee, when  the  men's  linen  was  produced, 
was  the  linen  that  was  examined,  that  which 
you  produced,  or  thiit  which  Mr.  Godby  pro- 
duced ? — I  had  a  large  flasket  full  of  men's 
flirts  and  sheets,  in  the  committee  room, 
some  new,  some  old,  that  were  not  examined ; 
I  could  not  prevail  upon  the  committee  to 
suffer  them  to  be  examined.  I  had  another 
basket  full  of  shoes  and  stockings  that  were 
complained  of;  they  were  not  examined; 
aome  few  Mr.  Oodby  thought  fit  to  produce, 
tkere  measured  by  himself,  and  it  dia  not  ap- 
pear to  me  that  evefn  those  sheets  were  near 
the  len^  allowed  by  the  establishment. 

Did  you  acquiesce  in  the  proposal  made  by 
sir  William  James^  to  tike  the  first  men  that 
passed  by  ? — ^r  William  James  very  candidly 
propose^  to  call  in  any  of  the  pensKjners,  and 
to  take  their  sense,  that  mi{;ht  be  near  the 
council-room;  1  acquiesced  m  that  ITie  re- 
verend Mr.  uooke  said,  there  were  a  number 
of  people  surrounding  the  doors,  whom  he 
said,  he  believed,  had  l^en  selected  and  placed 
there  for  the  purpose  by  captain  Baillie.  I 
said  to  that,  if  the  committee  would  send  to 
the  guard,  they  might  take  the  dense .  of  the 
men  promiscuously,  or  they  mieht  eo  into  the 
wards  of  the  Hospital,  and  see  tne  sheets  upon 
the  men's  beds,  and  the  shirts  for  the  next 
di^ ;  that  was  objected  to  by  Mr.  Cooke 
and  the  rest  of  the  directors;  sir  Willikm 
James,  I  thought  at  the  time,  did  appear  to 
acquiesce  to  it,  he  said  nothing. 

Was  the  reverend  IBr.  Cooke  one  of  the 
committee  ? — ^No,  he  was  not 

Was  he  present  in  the  room  all  the  time? 
-^He  was  generally  present;  he  walked  in 
and  out  when  he  pleased ;  he  was  there  the 
greatest  part  of  the  time. 

Did  he  give  his  opinion  upon  any  transaq- 
tkms  that  passed? — Perpetually^  tlie moment 
that  Mr.  Lefevre  came  m,  he  said  he  objected 
to  bis  evidence,  and  Mr.  Barker  took  his  ad- 


[S96 

vke;  and  I  beg  leave  to  say,  his  father's  evi* 
deoee  was  treated  in^e  same  manner. 

[Captain  Baillie  withdrew.] 


Monday,  May  10, 1779. 
Sir  Merrick  Burrell  called  in. 

Whether  you  were  a  member  of  i^e  com- 
mittee that  sat  at  Greenwich  Hospital  last 
summer? — At  what  meeting  does  your  grace 
mean ;  I  was  at  one  meeting  only,  as  1  re- 
collect. 

My  question  was,whether  you  were  a  mem- 
ber of  that  committee? — I  rather  believe  I 
was,  but  I  protest  I  cannot  absolutely  say. 

I  beg  to  know  whether  you  did  not  attend  ? 
— Once. 

Whether  you  recollect,  whether  the  evi- 
dence which  lieutenant-governor  Baillie  call- 
ed, was  heard  without  hesitation  or  objection  ? 
—Upon  what  occasion  ? 

The  day  when  you  were  there? — ^I  never 
was  there  but  one  day;  that  day  was  looking 
over  the  linen ;  there  was  I,  and  one  other 
director  there. 

Whether  you  recollect,  whether  you  did  not 
yourself  interfere  once  to  desire,  tnat  captain 
Baillie's  evidence  mieht  be  heard  ? — ^I  verily 
believe,  if  I  saw  any  Uiing  that  I  thought  was  • 
rather  oppressive,  I  should  most  certainiY 
mention  it;  and  I  rather  apprehend  I  said, 
let  that  be  looked  more  into,  or  something  of 
that  sort. 

Do  you  recollect,  whether  captain  All- 
wright's  evidence  upon  the  charges  concern- 
ing the  linen  was  objected  to? — My  memory 
don't  serve  me  in  that  afiair. 

You  will  endeavour  to  recollect,  whether 
yov  did  not  yourself  particularly  desire,  thai 
captain  Allwneht's  evidence  might  be  heard  ^ 
— I  dare  say  laid;  if  I  saw  it  right,  ajid  fit 
that  his  evidence  should  be  given  over  again, 
I  dare  say  I  did. 

It  was  not  to  be  given  over  agun  that  I 
ask,  but  whether  you  do  not  recollect  that 
captain  Allwright's  evidence  was  refused  to 
be  heard  concerning  the  linen,  and  that  you^ 
interfered,  and  desired  that  it  might  be  heard  ? 
— ^I  dare  say  I  did ;  I  do  not  recollect  any 
thing  of  it ;  but  if  it  was  a  reasonable  thkig,  i 
am  sure  I  did. 

I  b^  you  will  recollect,  whether  that  fact 
is  so;  whether  captain  Allwright's  evidence 
was  refused  ? — I  can  say  no  more  to  it ;  it  is  a 
great  many  months  ago. 

Whether  it  appeared  to  you,  that  captain 
Baillie  produceo  strong  evidence  in  support  of 
his  chairge  concermns  the  linen,-  or  not  ? — 
— Upon  my  word,  the  evidence  differed  so 
much  that  day,  and  gave  their  reasons  why 
the  linen  was  shorter,  that  I  really  did  not 
know  how  to  determine  upon  it 

Did  it  then  appear  to  you,  that  it  was 
doubtfiil,  whether  captain  Baillie  had  made 
out  his  charge  or  not  ?«— There  were  a  parcel 
of  people  there ;  the  women  thai  washed  tha 


S97]        ntpeettMg  tite  Ro^  HoipiUd  at  Greettttkk.        A.  O.  1778. 


COM 


ooiltndicted  one  another  in  so  extraor- 
dinaiy  a  manner,  tbat  I  could  hardly  form  a 
judgment 

.  Whether  the  result  of  that  examination 
was,  that  your  mind  was  led  in  doubt,  whe- 
ther the  charge  was  proved  or  not  ? — ^It  was  so. 
,  Do  you  thenthink  it  was  riffht  in  that  com- 
mittee to  say  that  captain  Millie  had  not 
made  good  his  charge? — I  must  answer,  that 
in  what  I  have  said  before,  the  witnesses  were 
diametrically  contrary  to  one  another,  that  I 
really  gave  credit  to  neither  of  them. 

I  thmk  you  have  said,  that  your  mind  was 
left  in  doubt,  whether  the  charge  was  proved 
or  not  ? — I  think  that  was  the  case. 

Then,  whether  you  thought  the  comnuttee 
ought  to  have  reported  that  the  charge  was 
p^mindless  ? — ^There  was  but  one  of  us,  I  and 
another  director;  I  believe  that  the  other  di- 
rector might  rather  think  it  stronger  than  I 
did ;  I  do  not  know  that  he  did. 

Who  was  tha^  other  director  ? — ^It  was  Mr. 
Cust 

Do  you  recollect^  whether  there  were  any 
minutes  taken  of  that  day's  proceeding? — 
Upon  my  word  I  do  not  recollect  whether 
there  was  or  was  not. 

Can  you  say  whether  an^r  minutes  were 
read  to  you  for  your  approbation? — I  protest 
I  cannot  give  an  answer  to  it. 

Did  you  ever  give  your  consent,  to  say  the 
charge  of  the  hnen  was  not  founded  ? — I  do 
not  recollect  that  ever  I  did ;  I  believe  I  did 

BOt. 

Did  you  observe  any  thing  improper  in  the 
behaviour  of  captain  Bailhe,  or  of  MV.  Cow- 
ley, who  as^sted  him  ? — I  did  not 

Whether  you  at  any  time  desired  that  Mr. 
Cowley  might  be  heard  in  answer  to  Mr. 
Morgan  ? — I  do  not  remember  a  word  of  any 
thing  about  it  ^ 

Do  you  recollect  the  clerk  of  the  works, 
Mr.  Mvlne,  attending  there  that  day  ? — I  am 
persuaaed  he  was  not  there  that  day. 

Do  you  recollect  any  person  using  any  bad 
language  towards  the  lieutenant-eovernor  ? — 
Upon  my  word  I  cannot  say  that!  do ;  there 
was  nothing  improper  that  I  heard,  either  on 
one  side  or  the  other. 

Do  you  not  recollect  anv  body's  calling  the 
lieutenant-^vemor  a  blackguard  ?'^I  think  I 
could  not  torget  that;  I  don't  remember  a 
fiiiieie  word  oft  it,  upon  my  honour. 

What  was  the  day  that  you ^d  attend? — 
Upon  my  word  I  do  not  recollect. 

What  was  the  reason  you  did  not  attend 
aSierwards?— I  was  afVer  that  chiefly  in  the 
country. 

Had  you  no  other  reason  for  not  attending 
the  committee?— I  am  a  very  old  director 
there,  and  latterly  I  have  very  seldom  attend- 
ed at  all.  I  can  excuse  myself  for  it;  be- 
cause when  we  attend  we  are  paid,  and  when 
we  donH,  we  have  nothing  for  it ;  and  I  don't 
believe  I  have  attended  above  six  or  seven 
times  in  the  year. 

Were  you  perfectly  satisfied  with  the  me- 


thod of  conducUnj;  that  enqiuiyN-So  hr  1, 
was  satisfied  with  it;  because  Mr.  Baillie  d#» 
dared,  that  he  had  no  manii^r of  ofajectionio 
any  thing  that  the  directon  had  done,  or  to 
that  effect. 

I  beg  you  will  explain  that,  for  I  do  not 
quite  understand  it  ?— When  we  had  the  first 
meeting  there,  it  was  left  to  the  directdls  to 
settle  what  complaints  he  had  made ;  he  then 
declared  that  he  had  nothine  to  say  against 
the  directors;  upon  which  I  declared  tEen,  I 
have  nothing  more  to  do  with  it;  I  will  not 
trouble  my  head  any  more  about  it,  nor  I 
never  did. 

Did  you  attend  there  as  a  director,  to  de- 
fend yourself  against  any  charge,  or  as  a  mem* 
ber  of  the  committee  appointea  bv  the  gene- 
ral court  to  enquire  into  the  charges? — ^I 
never  was  but  once  at  the  committee,  when 
wc  looked  over  the  linen,  and  another  time, 
when  the  lieutenant-ffovemor  made  the  charge. 

What  other  time  do  you  mean  by  that  ?— > 
When  we  looked  over  the  linen  ;.it  is  very 
clear  we  were  once  at  my  lord  ^uidwich's, 
and  there  his  book  was  read;  and,  uppn  my 
word,  when  I  came  to  hear  the  book,  it  was 
so  extraordinary  a  book,  that  I  thought  it 
hardly  deserved  almost  a  consideration;  I 
must  carry  it  so  far  as,  that  I  pitied  the  poor 
man. 

.  Was  that  time  you  attended  at  my  lord 
Sandwich's,  previous  or  subsequent  to  the 
committee's  meeting? — The  comniittee  that 
I  went  with ;  Mr.  Oist  was  afterwards ;  Mr. 
Cust  was  my  neighbour ;  he  said  there  was  a 
committee,  and  desired  me  to  go ;  I  said,  t 
would  go  once  with  him,  but  did  not  know 
what  to  make  of  this  ai&ir. 

I  beg  you  will  hiform  the  committee^  ^e* 
ther  you  attended  that  committee  as  a  direc- 
tor, or  as  a  member  of  the  committee? — ^As  a 
director,  I  never  looked  upon  myself  to  trouble 
my  head  about  the  committee. 

Whether  you  afterwards  attended  at  the 
general  court  that  was  held  at  the  Admiral^ 
m  August? — ^No. 

Whether  you  had  any  reason  for  not  attend- 
ing?— ^None  upon  earth;  I  certainly  should 
have  attended  if  I  had  thought  it  unport^ 
any  thing. 

Are  vou  apprized  of  what  was  done  at  that 
general  court? — ^Indeed  I  was  not,  I  was  out 
of  town  many  months,  and  had  heard  notfaiiig 
of  it  till  I  came  to  town. 

Do  you  recollect  now  what  was  done  atth* 
general  court? — Upon  my  word  I  don't  know 
any  thine  of  it. 

If  you  nad  attended  at  that  general  court,, 
did  you  see  reason  enough  by  your  attendance 
at  the  committee,  to  have  voted  for  the  sufr- 
pension  or  removal  of  captain  Baillie  ? — As  I 
was  not  there,  I  cannot  form  a  judgment  of 
what  should  have  happened,  as  I  didnot hear 
what  passed. 

Did  there  appear  sufficient  ground  to  you, 
from  what^ou  saw  at  the  committee,  to  think 
that  captain  B^e  ought  to  h«ve  beea  re- 


889] 


18  GEORGE  HL         The  Case  nfCapUM  Tkmat  BmUie,         [400 


inovedf-^-Asl  said  before,  I  pitied  caplain 
JBiftiUie ;  I  IhoMghi  him  an  improper  man  to 
liave  been  there. 

Whether  tbere.^peared  any  thing  at  thai 
meeting  of  the  committee  at  which  jrou  as- 
tuUdf  m  captain  Baillie,  that  made  mm  de- 
MTving  to  be  removed  from  his  office  f — ^What 
|)iBtMedthere,  I  did  not  see  any  thing,  I  cannot 
nbDOflt  give  an  answer  to  that;  the  man 
seemed  so  extraonUnary  a  man ;  there  were 
many  things  in  the  book  which  I, believed  at 
the  time,  I  and  are  not  so  particularly,  which 
sve  had  nothing  atall  to  ao  with ;  there  are 
abundance  of  people  that  were  there ;  there 
3vas  a  protest,  that  Uiere  were  a  vast  number 
of  lanomen;  upon  being  better  infbnnedyl 
find  there  are  a  very  few. 

Do  you  recollect  how.  many  landmen  there 
are?-^i  have  heard  but  very  few;  there  are 
Hbt  two  cl^gymen,  which,  in  my  humble  opi- 
nion, ought  to  be  seamen,  and  there  are  two 
or  tiriree  more  I  have  been  inforaied;  I  had 
an  opinion  irom  Mr.  Baiilie  and  his  friends^ 
that  there  were  a  vast  number  there ;  I  founa 
it  the  contnurv  aflerwards  upon  examination ; 
when  I  say  his  friends,  I  mean  the  people 
that  lived  in  friendship  with  him. 

Po  you  recollect  that  captain  Baillie  in  his 
book,  has  complained  of  there  being  more 
landmen  than  there  really  is  ? — I  cannot  give 
an  ai»wer  to  that,  I  can  give  an  answer  so 
far,  that  I  always  did  understand,  that  the 
f^tifX  force  was  upon  landmen,  that  were  put 
m  improperly,  which  certainly  is  improper; 
but  when  I  came  to  be  informed,  I  find  there 
is  not  that  quantity  of  landmen  put  in  that  I 
expected. 

Were  you  desired  to  sign  the  report  of  the 
«Oimuittee  ?-«-I  should  thmk  not ;  I  was  not 
tiiere,  and  so  I  could  not  be  desired  to  sizn  it. 
,  Do  you  recollect  the  examination  of  John 
Olaasy  and  boatswain  Gough  ?«-They  were 
never  examined  before  me  as  I  can  recollect. 

Don't  you  recollect  boatswain  Gough  being 
tamed  out  of  the  room  ?--^Upon  my  word  I  do 
not.    Was  it  at  Greenwich  r 

It  is  of  Gteenwich  I  am  enquiring,  it 
would  not  be  proper  for  me  to  sav  it  was,  I 
Am  asking  you  the  question  ? — ^I  no  not  re- 
collect. 

.  Do  you  recollect  any  warm  words  passing 
between  Mr.  Morgan  and  lieutenant  Gordon  r 
*-*Indced  I  do  not ;  many  of  those  things  hap- 
pened when  I  was  not  there,  for  I  had  been 
init  at  two  or  three  meetings;  I  might  have 
Iwen  there,  but  I  do  not  recollect  it,  I  very 
seldom  attended. 

,  Do  you  recollect  any  reason  given  by  cap- 
tain Maplesden  why  the  linoi  was  badly 
washed ?— -Indeed  I  do  not;  in  short  the 
greatest  part  of  that  mcetiag  was  a  squabble 
Setween  the  washerwomen  and  both  the  par- 
ties; they  contradicted  one  another  in  the 
strongest  terms  that  could  possibly  be. 

Do  you  recollect  any  reason  given  by  cap- 
lean  ^iaplesden,  wkv  the  shoes  were  worn  out 
•by  the  noBy  particefarly  by  their  wocking  on 


copperas  grounds  ?*— Upon  nqr  word  I  never 
heard  one  single  word  of  the  shoes. 

You  have  said,  you  were  at  one  meetinc  at 
kNrd  Sendwicfa'Sy  I  beg  you  to  recoUect/whe- 
ther  you  are  suoe  it  was  at  lord  Sandwich's 
house,  or  whether  it  was  at  the  board  at  the 
Admiralty  f — ^I  never  was  at  the  board  of  Ad- 
nairahy  in  my  life ;  it  was  in  a  large  room, 
my  lord  Sandwich  was  there ;  if  his  lordship 
wul  be  so  good  as  let  us  know  where  it  was. 

The  Earl  of  Sandmiah,    Was  it  not  in  the 
same  place  where  I  saw  you,  where  the  ge- 
neral court  always  meets  f — A,  I  never,  was  at  i 
the  seneral  court  in  my  life. 

Not  at  the  general  court  of  the  govemon 
of  Greenwich  Hospital  ?^I  protest  I  cannot 
take  upon  me  to  say  what  room  it  was;  I 
think  it  can  be  of  no  great  consequence  what 
room  we  were  in. 

I  think  you  said  you  pitied  captain  Baillie  ? 
— ^Idid. 

What  occasioned  your  having  vity  for  capt 
BailUe? — ^When  I  heard  the  book  read,  there 
were  many  things  in  it,  that  aflerwards  ap- 
peared to  me  not  to  be  facts. 

Whether  you  know  of  any  case  whatever, 
in  which  captain  Baillie  misbehaved  as  de- 
puty governor  of  Greenwich  Hospital? — ^I 
never  neard  any  thing  acainst  that  gentle* 
man*s  character  m  my  whole  life. 

You  have  said  that  there  are  in  captain 
Baillie's  book  some  things,  that  afterwards 
appeared  to  you  not  to  be  tact ;  did  they  ap- 
pear so  from  information,  or  from  your  own 
knowledge  f — ^It  was  rather,  when  I  talked  to 
other  people  who  knew  it ;  it  was  their  opv- 
nion  and  mine  too,  that  there  were  many 
things  exaggerated.  ^ 

It  is  a  very  serious  charge  agamst  captain 
Baillie,  that  he  had  advanc^  things  that  were 
not  fact ;  do  you  say  from  your  own  know- 
ledge that  it  was  so,  or  from  conversation  with 
other  people? — I  believe  it  might  be  from 
conversation  with  other  people. 

Whether  there  is  any  one  fact  staled  in  his 
bool^  that  you  know  not  to  be  true? — ^I  can- 
not lay  my  finger  upon  any  one  fact,  but 
there  are  many  thin^  that  appear  to  me  to 
be  very  much  exa^erated. 

[Sir  Merrick  Biurrell  withdrew.] 

Captain  AllwriglU  called  in. 

Whether  you  know  when  the  posts  and 
rails  round  the  Hospital  were  taken  down,  of 
which  the  blind  men  complained? — They 
were  taken  down  since  the  present  clerk  of 
the  works  has  been  appointed. 

How  many  years  a^o? — I  believe  it  was 
within  these  three  years;  I  cannot  speak  po- 
utively  as  to  the  time. 

Was  it  before  captain  Baillie*s  Case  was 
heard  ? — Yes. 

I  beg  you  will  say  whether,  since  that  time, 
they  have  been  put  up  again? — ^I  know  of 
none  put  up. 

Are  they  put  up  to  this  day  ?^^I  know  of 
none* 


401]         rtspecHng  ike  Royal  Hospital  at  Greentoich*         A.  D.  1779. 


liOt 


Wfaethor  you  know,  in  eenera),  that  eapt. 
Bftittie's  conduct  towards  toe  pensioners  has 
beei^  meritorious  or  otherwise? — ^I  have  al- 
ways entertained  the  highest  opinion  of  him, 
as  ueutenant-govemor  of  the  Hospital,  and  as 
ca^ain  of  the.  Hospital  before. 

Has  there  been  any  merit  in  captain  Bailiie, 
i^tive  to  the  men's  broth  ? — Certainly. 

What  was  the  state  of  that?— There  was  a 
neat  qo&ntity  made,  more  than  necessary,  for 
file  pensioners,  from  the  pensioners'  meat, 
and  the  broth  was  frequently  taken  away ; 
there  was  broth,  a^  it  appeared  upon  an  en- 
quiry at  the  council,  oveiphis,  that  was  sent 
to  a  man  in  some  part  of  the  town ;  and  many 
people  fetched  broth  that  had  no  right^  that 
iNnled  no  meat  in  the  cooper. 

And  was  that  remediea,  owing  to  any  pains 
captain  Baillie  took  about  it? — Entire^;  I 
have  stated  some  complaints  to  captain  Bail- 
he,  that  bntth  had  been  pillaged,  and  more 
than  once. 

Have  any  attempts  been  made  since  that 
was  abolished  to  renew  that  practice  ?— There 
have  been  some  people  fetched  broth  away 
that  I  have  taken  notice  of;  and,  indeed,  re- 
presented it  to  council,  to  desire  that  the 
cook,  and  the  people  in  the  kitchen,  might 
be  enjoined  to  attend  to  the  orders  of  the 
coimcil. 

Whom  were  these  attempts  by  ?— By  a  man 
particularly,  that  I  saw,  a  labourer  in  the  Hos- 
pital, under  the  directions  of  the  clerk  of  the 
works. 

Have  you  any  reason  to  think  that  it  was 
with  his  privity  or  knowledge  ? — I  cannot  an- 
swer that  question. 

Has  captain  Baillie  had  any  merit  in  the 
Hospital,  with  respect  to  the  parber  and  ^e 
shaving  of  the  men  ?— -Without  a  doubt,  the 
barber  used  to  shave  the  people  but  once 
a  week;  it  was  representea  to  the  council, 
that  the  pensioners  could  not  go  decently  to 
chapel  of  a  Sunday,  if  they  were  not  shaved 
oftoier  than  once  a  week ;  the  emoluments  of 
the  barber  appeared  to  be  very  great ;  and  it 
was  thought  oy  the  council  ♦  necessary  to 
ihave  them  oftener ;  the  depuW  barber  did 
exact  a  halfpenny  a  man  ^m  the  pensioners 
who  shaved  oflener;  and,  by  a  regulation 
tint  was  made  hi  the  council,  adviseuby  the 
liaitenant-govemor,  a  regulation  for  their 
beiag  shaved  twice  a  week^  and  the  barber 
made  a  greater  allowance  to  his  deputy  on 
Awt  account. 

And  are  they  now  shaved  twice  a  week 
cratis  ? — If  they  go  in  the  time  of  shaving,  I 
Sefieve,  they  pay  nothing. 

Aad  is  that  alteration  in  shaving  owing  to 

*  thb  barber,  by  the  otitbViBhmeal,  b  allowed  an 
UTpciinj  per  nan,  per  week,  for  shaving  i,tO0  pen- 
uaoiinfiiig  to  Above  238^.  per  aiuiam  ;  and 
Above  doing  any  doty  bimaelf,  his  deputy  ex- 
iMthT  batlpeiHiy  per  week,  from  the  pen- 
i»  lUI  eapt  Baffik  oMMwd  tbal  tui^m  to  be 
aboliibea.    Orig.Ed. 

VOL,  XXI. 


captain  Baillie's  having  stirred  in  the  busi* 
ness  ? — ^I  believe  it  is. 

Has  captain  Baillie  any  merit,  in  respect  to 
having  convicted  the  butcher's  servant  ?•— Yes; 
he  was  exceedingly  active  in  that  matter. 

Has  captain  ^llie  always  behaved  proper- 
ly in  the  Hospital  towards  the  men  ?-— I  ^nk 
so. 

Has  he  been  sober?— I  thhik  so,  very 
much. 

Diligent?— DUicent.  I  think,  undoubtedly. 

Where  did  the  fire  begin  in  the  Hospital  ? 
— Somewhere  near  the  tailors'  lofi,  near  a 
stack  of  chimnies,  between  that  and  the  Duke 
of  vYork,  and  King's  ward,  somewhere  that 
way,  but  the  exact  part  I  cannot  take  upon 
me  to  say. 

Under  whose  care  is  the  tailors'  shop? — I 
should  suDpose  it  is  under  the  direction  of  the 
civil  people,  the  steward,  and  those  people. 

Was  any  council  of  the  house  caUed  uoon 
that  occasion,  to  enquire  into  the  cause  oftnat 
mislbrtune  ? — ^I  know  of  none  by  the  council ; 
a  magistrate  was  down ;  if  tiiere  was  any  by 
the  council,  I  was  not  present. 

Have  you  been  in  Greenwich  Hospital  the 
whole  time  that  governor  Baillie  has  been 
lieutenant-governor  ?— Yes ;  the  whole  time 
he  has  been  lieutenant-governor. 

Whether  you  know  any  one  instance  of 
captain  Bailhe's  misbehaviour,  as  deputy  go^ 
yemor? — ^In  my  own  opinion,  I  know  of  none ; 
it  may  be  matter  of  opinion ;  respecting  tha 
case  of  the  Hospital,  i  say  nothing  to  that; 
but,  in  any  thins  within  my  own  knowledge, 
I  say  not.         [Captain  Allwright  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Edward  Boxky  called  in. 

[Remainder  of  this  day's  interrogatories^  by 

Earl  Ferrers-} 

Pr&y  what  is  your  office  in  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital ?— I  am  clerk  to  the  treasurer  of  Grecn> 
wich  Hospital. 

Pray  who  is  treasurer? — Alexander  Hood, 
esq. 

He  is  captain  of  a  man  of  war,  I  understand  ? 
—Captain  of  a  man  of  war. 

Is  ne  upon  full,  or  half-pay  ? — I  really  do 
not  know. 

What  emolument  occurs  to  the  treasurer  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  ? — ^The  treasurer  of  Green- 
wich Hospital's  emoluments  are  800/.  a  year. 

What  other  emoluments  has  he  besides  the 
300/.  a  year  salary? — ^Apartments  in  the 
house,  and  allowance  of  sundry  necessaries ; 
such  as  coals,  candles,  and  other  kinds  of  ne- 
cessaries. 

Then  I  apprehend  you  are  appointed  to  do 
the  business  m  this  Hospital,  as  clerk  to  capt. 
Hood  ? — ^The  treasurer,  captain  Hood,  has  ap- 
pointed me,  by  power  of  attorney,  to  receive 
and  collect  all  the  monies,  and  pay  all  the 
monies  in  virtue  of  his  office,  as  treasurer  of 
the  Hospital. 

What  are  yoo  allowed  for  so  doing  ? — My 
salaiy,  as  treasuiei's  clerk,  is  50/.  per  annum, 

«  D 


405] 


18  GEORGE  IIL  The  Case  ff  Captain  Thomas  BaiUie,         [404 


and  I  have  apartments  allowed  me  in  the 
Hospital  to  live  in. 

Who  is  the  steward  of  Greenwich  Hospital? 
— ^Mr.  John  Godhy  is  steward  of  the  Hospital. 

And  what  money  do  you  pay  Mr.  Godhy, 
the  steward  of  the  Hospital ;  h  v  the  year,  or 
monthly? — ^I  cannot  recollect  the  exact  sum 
that  I  pay  him ;   there  is  a  book  made  out, 

auarterly,  of  the  salary  for  all  the  officers  in 
le  Hospital,  and  that  book  I  make  out  at  the 
steward's  office ;  it  goes  to  the  clerk  of  the 
cheque's  office,  there  it  is  examined;  from 
thence  it  is  sent  to  the  treasurer,  and  he  pays 
by  that  book  quarterly. 

And  that  you  pay  to  Mr.  Godby  quarterly  ? 
— Mr.  Godb/s  salary  for  himself  and  clerks  I 
pay  quarterly. 

How  much  is  that? — ^I  cannot  say  exactly 
the  sum,  but  it  is  an  established  salary  for 
himself  and  clerks. 

What  does  the  Derwentwater  estate  bring 
into  Greenwich  Hospital.^ — ^1  have  brought 
some  papers  to  refresh  my  memory,  I  cannot 
answer  it  without  referring  to  them ;  if  your 
lordships  will  please  to  give  me  leave  (refers 
to  his  papers).  The  remittances  from  the 
Derwentwater  estate  are  made  by  bills  that 
the  receivers  send  up  lo  the  treasurer,  from 
time  to  time,  upon  acooimt  of  these  bills, 
when  the  monies  are  received  for  them  are 
brought  to  an  account  and  carried  in  the  trea- 
surer's account  under  the  head  of  the  Der- 
wentwater estate ;  the  sums  received  by  the 
treasurer  of  Greenwich  Hospitel  is  the  neat 
monies  that  is  received,  the  treasurer  knows 
nothing  more  of  the  Derwentwater  estate  than 
the  neat  sums  remitted  to  him  and  brought 
to  account;  the  annual  sums  received  for  se- 
veral years  past  1  have  here. 

What  were  they  in  the  last  year  ? — In  the 
year  1778  ending  the  S  1st  of  December,  the 
Derwentwater  estate  remitted  to  the  treasurer 
of  Greenwich  hospital  13,000/. 

Is  that  all  ?— That  year. 

For  the  whole  year  the  two  half  year§'  rents 
of  Lady-day  and  Michaelmas  made  15,000/. 
only? — ^The  remittances  are  from  the  1st  of 
January  to  the  31st  of  December,  during  that 
time  there  are  bills  remitted  to  the  treasurer 
of  Greenwich  Hospital  to  the  amount  of 
15,000/.* 

And  no  more  ? — ^Not  in  1 778. 

Are  there  no  benefits  from  the  lead  mines 
on  that  estate  ? — The  treasurer's  office  knows 
nothing  of  that. 

You  have  in  your  account,  I  suppose,  an 
account  of  every  thing  that  is  brought  into 
the  account  of  Greenwich  Hospital  oesides 
that  of  the  Derwentwater  estate,  have  you 
not  ? — Of  the  siuns  received  upon  the  different 
heads. 

I  should  be  glad  to  know  it  upon  the  dif- 
ferent heads? — ^There  are  a  great  number  of 
heads. 


*  There  are  Urge  dodoo^ioju  for  coals,  6cc  top- 
plicd  U>  tUo  Hogpiul.    Orig,  EiU 


You  need  only  mention  the  ktoss  sums, 
and  what  they  are  particularly  for?— The  neat 
amount  of  cash  received  by  the  treasurer  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  for  the  year  1778, 
6\,\24l.6s,tHd. 

What  is  that  the  produce  of  besides  that  of 
the  Derwentwater  estate  ? — It  is  the  produce 
of  various  heads  of  the  revenues  of  tne  Hos- 
pital, the  principal  ones  is  money  aiisingfrom 
merchant  seamen's  sixpences ;  there  are  sums 
received  on  account  of  naval  seamen's  six- 
pences ;  on  the  Derwentwater  estate ;  there 
are  sums  received  tlie  produce  of  the  Northern 
and  Southern  Foreland  lights;  there  is  the 
interest  of  money  in  the  stocks;  there  was  in 
the'  year  1778,  for  merchants  seamen's  six- 
pences received  10,989/.  17s.  Hd. ;  upon  ac- 
count of  naval  seamen's  sixpences,  19,000/. ; 
the  Derwentwater  estate,  15,000/.;  the  produce 
of  the  North  and  South  Foreland  lights, 
3,103/.  IBs.  Hd.;  interest  of  money  in  the  tiimds, 
7,828/.  Ss,;  a  parliamentmry  grant,  4,000/.; 
officers'  hsdf-pay  that  is  received  from  the 
treasurer  of  the  navy,  appropriated  to  the  use 
of  Greenwich  Hospitd,  577/.  16s.  3</. ;  upon 
account  of  forfeited  shares  of  prize  money, 
^93/.  lAs.  lOd. ;  sundry  rents  of  houses  beloDff- 
ing  to  the  Hospital,  of  which  the  rents  are  cm- 
lected,  109/.  14s.  6d. 

That  is  a  small  sum  ? — ^The  Hospital  have 
bought  houses  and  lands  contiguous  to  it,-  in 
order  to  enlarge  it,  formerly,  and  they  have 
appropriated  some  parts,  but  not  the  whole, 
and  those  lands  that  nave  not  been  built  upon 
for  the  use  of  the  Hospital  remain  in  private 
houses  and  are  let  to  tenants,  some  two  or 
three  odd  houses  that  are  of  small  value,  the 
whole  rent  collected  in  1778,  amounted  to 
109/.  14s.  6d, 

Is  that  including  what  is  in  Greenwich  and 
in  London,  because  I  apprehend  Greenwich 
Hospital  has  houses  in  London  as  well  as  at 
Greenwich  ? — It  is  tliose  in  London  and  those 
about  Greenwich ;  there  is  one  article  more,  a 
legacy  lef^  to  the  Hospital  of  100/.  which  I 
received,  that  is  the  whole  received  by  iht 
treasurer  in  1778. 

Do  you  know  what  the  Derwentwater  es- 
tate brmgs  in  annually? — I  can  acjquaint  vour 
lordships  with  the  neat  sums  received ;  toere 
are  different  sums  annually  received;  I  have 
collected  them  from  1771  to  1777,  and  I  have 
formed  a  medium  for  these  ^ven  years;  in 

1771,  20^000/.  and  the  medium  of  the  whole 
for  these  seven  years,  from  177 1,  to  1777,  is 
16,5S8/.  1  Is.  5d. 

Then  the  Derwentwater  €»tate.  instead  of 
being  better  since  177 1,  is  infinitely  worse  bv 
this  account?* — In  the  year  1771,  90,000?. 

1772,  17,500/.  1773,  21,500/.  1774,  14,500/L 
1775,  21,000/.  1776,  15,300/.  1777,  15,900/. 
1778, 15,000/.  these  are  the  neat  sums  received 
by  the  treasurer  in  those  respective  years. 


*  Lord  Sandwich  in  hu  speech,  took  great 

to  bin»elf»  in  the  incrMM  of  the  roTeoaet  of  tho  Uo^ 
piUl.    Orig.  Ed. 


405]         respecting  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Greenxvich.        .  A.  D.  1778. 


[406 


•  What  reason  do  you  give  for  the  Derwent- 
water  estate  (idling  so  much  lower  in  that  year 
and  in  the  year  1774  ?»It  is  not  possible  for 
me  to  give  an  answer  to  that 

There  have  been  no  new  leases,  can  you 
^ve  an  account  of  any  new  leases? — ^The 
whole  account  of  the  -Derwentwater  estate  is 
setded  at  certsdn  f>eriods,  the  receivers  of  the 
estate  send  up  their  accounts  debtor  and  cre- 
ditor to  the  board  of  directors,  Mr.  Ibb^tson, 
tiie  secretary  to  the  board  of  directors,  has 
those  accounts;  Mr.  Maule,  the  clerk  of  the 
cheque,  has  likewise  the  counterparts  of  those 
accounts,  and  they  are  settled  and  audited  by 
the  board  of  directors,  from  time  to  time,  but 
the  treasurer  knows  nothine  but  the  neat  bills 
remitted  from  time  to  time  by  the  agents. 

The  receivers  of  these  rents,  I  understand 
are  not  in  to^n,  but  I  think  you  say  Mr.  Ib- 
betson  can  give  as  full  an  account  as  any  of 
them  ? — ^The  whole  accounts  of  the  receivers 
of  the  Derwentwater  estate  are  sent  up  among 
the  other  accounts ;  '  Mr.  Ibbetson  I  suppose 
\as  those  accounts,  the  clerk  of  the  cheque, 
Mr.  Maule,  his  office  is  to  have  counterparts 
of  all  the  office  business  entirely,  and  for  any 
farther  particulars  reference  must  be  had  to 
those  officers. 

Is  not  there  a  rectory  upon  the  Derwent- 
water estate  ? — I  have  been  a  very  little  time 
in  Greenwich  Hospital ;  I  may  have  heard 
there  is  such  a  ihrne,  but  I  am  much  unac- 
quainted with  the  Derwentwater  estate  in 
every  shape. 

You  do  not  pay  Mr.  Godby  any  money 
more  than  what  you  have  acquainted  us  of, 
do  you,  upon  any  occasions  ? — Mr.  Godbv  has 
the  payment  of  a  great  numberof  articles  as 
steward  of  the  Hospital,  for  which  he  applies 
to  the  board  of  directors,  from  time  to  tmie, 
to  have  money  imprest  to  him,  in  order  to 
cany  on  the  current  payments  as  steward  of 
the  Hospital ;  the  treasurer  receives  directions 
iiom  the  board  to  let  him  have  so  much  mo- 
ney from 'time  to  time,  and  he  accounts  every 
six  or  twelve  months,  whenever  the  boar^ 
call  for  it,  for  those  sums  so  imprest. 

You  have  been  in  this  office  a  twelvemonth 
I  apprehend? — I  have  been  in  this  office 
three  years.  ^ 

Give  me  the  particulars  from  January, 
1778,  to  January,  177#,  of  what  you  paid  Mr. 
Godbv,  with  the  dates.— It  will  be  a  work  of 
ooasderable  time  to  collect  them  from  a  book 
rhave. 

If  ^rou  can  give  us  the  sums  as  you  paid 
them  in  the  gross  it  will  do  as  well. — The 
amount  of  the  houshold  accounts  for  the  year 
1778, 1  can  inform  your  lordships,  which  ac- 
counts he  has  the  money  imprested  to  him, 
and  settles  it  from  year  to  year. 

Infinrm  the  committee  m  that  then. — The 
amount  of  the  houshold  accounts  for  1778  is 
S0yS9tL  U.  5d.     [Mr.  Ed.  Boxley  withdrew.] 

-Mr.  Ibbetson  called  in. 

What  has  the  Derwentwater  estate  brought 


in  ?  What  the  Lady-day  rents,  and  what  the 
Michaehnas  rents  have  been  ? — I  am  not  pre- 
pared to  answer  that  auestion ;  I  have  heard 
the  last  evidence  say  tnat  the  accounts  come 
to  me ;  it  is  very  true  they  do ;  but  they  are 
sent  by  me  to  the  clerk  of  the  cheque ;  but 
the  receipts,  on  account  of  the  Derwentwater 
estate,  are  very  various ;  they  differ  much, 
annually ;  because  a  great  part  of  the  revenue 
arising  from  the  Derwentwater  estate,  per- 
haps a  third,  or  more,  arises  from  the  fead 
mines ;  thay  haVe  a  great  quantity  of  lead  on 
hands,  sometimes ;  Siey  don't  sell  it  for  two 
or  three  years  together;  and  that  occasions 
the  difference  between  the  net  receipt  of  the 
Hospital  one  year  with  another. 

Do  you  think  the  net  revenue  of  the  Der- 
wentwater estate  is  less  smce  1778  than 
1771  ? — ^I  do  not  know  what  the  net  receipts 
were ;  the  rents  have  certainly  increased ; 
the  mines  differ  much ;  one  year  may  pro- 
duce 8,000/.  another  not  half  the  money; 
mining  is  exceedingly  uncertain. 

There  is  a  valuable  rectory  upon  this  estate  ? 
— ^The  rectory  of  Simonboume,  I  presume, 
your  lordship  alludes  to  ? 

What  does  that  bring,  annually,  to  the  rec^ 
tor  f— I  have  heard  1,000/.  a  year,  or  more. 

Who  is  the  present  rector  ?— The  rev.  Mr. 
Scott. 

Was  he  ever  at  sea  ?-— I  never  heard  that 
he  was. 

Are  there  not,  freouentl^,  on  board  of  men 
of  war,  clergymen  tnat  might  have  that  di- 
vided among  them,  that  it  might  be  of  use 
to  ? — ^There  certainl}r  are  many  chaplains  in 
the  navy ;  and  certainly  1,000/.  a  year  would 
bear  a  ditvision.* 

Was  not  there  a  perpetual  advowson  boueht 
with  some  of  Greenwich  Hospital  money? — 
Greenwich  Hospital  was  originallv  entitled  to 
a  third  part  of  tvthes,  and  a  third  part  of  the 

presentation  to  the  vicarage  of ;  they 

have  bought  the  other  shares  of  tvthes,  and 
of  the  presentation ;  and  the  purchase  made 
no  great  difference ;  the  other  thirds  of  the 
presentation,  and  of  the  tythes,  was  thought 
an  eligible  thine  tor  Greenwich  Hospital  to 
be  possessed  of;  the  living  was  not  more 
than  50/.  or  60/.  a  year;  and  it  was  thought 
worth  while  to  have  a  clergyman  in  that  part 
of  the  country.    ' 


I 


*  In  Mr.  Baron  Maierei't  "  Moderate  Reformer, 
or  a  Propofal  to  cbrrect  some  Abases  in  the  present 
Sstablishment  of  the  Charoh  of  Bngrland/*  it  ia 
stated,  tliat  the  parish  of  Simonburn  is  36  miles  in 
length,  and  14  in  breadth,  and  it  ia  sug^getted,  that  it 
might  be  divided  into  at  lea&t  foor  lesser  parishes  : 
andin  1811,  an  act  (stat  51  G.  3,  c.  194)  was  passed, 
for  erecting  five  distinct  rectories  and  parishes  with- 
in the  rectory  and  paritih  of  Siuicmbnrn,  and  separai* 
ing  the  same  from  the  rectory  and  parish  churoh  o( 
Simonburn,  and  restraining  the  commissioners  and 
governor  of  Greenwich  Hospital  from  presenting  to 
the  reotory  of  Simonburn,  or  the  said  now  reolorics^ 
a^y  others  than  ohaplaiot  ia  tho  rojjil  nary* 


407] 


18  GEORGE  m.  The  Oue  qfCaptmm  Tkomas  Baittie^         [KA 


Who  has  it  f-^Mr.  Lancaster;  he  has  been 
presented  to  it  a  great  manv  years. 

Has  he  been  at  sea  ? — ^I  io  net  know. 

Where  did  he  come  from  ? — ^I  ima^ne  he 
is  of  that  country ;  a  Cumberland  man. 

Then  it  is  probable  that  he  never  was  at 
sea  ? — ^A  Cumberland  man  might  be  at  sea  as 
well  as  a  man  of  any  other  country. 

[Mr.  Ibbetson  withdrew.] 


Friday^  Ma$f  14, 1779. 

Rev.  Dr.  Shepherd  called  in  by  the  Earl  of 

Sandtoich, 

Whether  you  were  ever  applied  to,  by  any 
bodv,  to  propose  to  lord  Sandwich  an  accom- 
modation witli  captain  Bailliet — I  was. 

By  whom  was  that? — ^It  happened  by  the 
followinjg  accident. 

By  whom  was  it? — ^Mr.  Murphy;  it  hap- 
pened from  the  following  accid^t ;  as  less^ 
and  fellow  of  ChiisVa^college,  in  Cambridge, 

I  had  a  law-suit  tried  at assizes,  last 

summer,  in  which  Mr.  Murphy  was  one  of 
my  cotmsel ;  coming  to  town,  a  little  before 
the  last  Michaelmas  term,  I  called  upon  Mr. 
Murphy  at  his  chambers,  to  ask  his  opinion, 
whether  it  would  not  be  expedient  to  nave  a 
new  trial ;  having  finished  the  conversation 
upon  this  subject,  Mr.  Murphy  pointed  to 
several  bundles  of  papers  in  his  room,  and 
aud,  all  those  concern  a  friend  of  your's ;  this 
he  explained,  by  sayinjg,  they  were  the  charged 
pi  captain  BaiUie  agamst  lord  Sandwich  and 
tbe  officers  of  Greenwich  Hospital ;  he  said  it 
would  be  a  very  troublesome  a&ir,  and  he 
could  wish  to  recommend  it  to  his  lordship  to 
make  it  up ;  he  added,  that  captain  Baillie 
had  conmussioned  him  to  s^,  that  he  would 
take  an  equivalent  for  his  omce ;  had  he  any 
acquaintance  with  lord  Sandwich,  he  woidja 
have  made  this  proposal  to  his  lordship  fipoEs 
|he  captain ;  I  know  you  have,  I  wish  you 
would  do  it ;  I  have  nmde  the  same  request 
to  Mr.  Garrick.  I  heard  all  this,  took  my 
leave  of  him,  but  made  no  answer. 

When,  in  that  [qu.  what]  month*  did  this 
happen? — It  was  either  in  the  last  week  of 
October,  or  the  first  of  November + ;  and  on 
my  return  home  I  considered  of  ttie  matter, 
and  determined  not  to  mention  it  to  my  lord ; 
thinking  it  was  not  for  his  lordship's  honour, 
to  enter  into  a  private  treaty  with  a  person 
irho  had  accused  him  pubUcly. 

[Rev.  Dr.  Shepherd  withdrew.] 

Lancelot  Browny  Esq.  called  in. 

Whether,  at  anv  time,  you  were  desired  to 
make  any  proposals  to  lord  Sandwich,  of  an 
accommodation  with  captain  Baillie  ? — ^I  was ; 
in  November  last^  I  went  to  Serle's  coffee^ 
bouse  in  the  evening,  I  think  it  was  the  day 

*  So  in  Orig. 

t  Tbit  WH  befors  tlte  trial  ia  tlwpaiirt  of  KiagV 


Waeb 


.Ed. 


the  nde  was  discharged  in  the  court  of  Kiag's- 
bench;  I  saw  Mr.  Murphy  there;  thasub- 
iect  of  the  conversation,  at  that  plaoe^  was  le- 
lative  to  Greenwich  Hospital ;  Mr.  Murplw 
joined  in  the  conversation.  I  said  to  hin^I 
think  your  fiiend  captain  Baillie  has  aained  a 
defeat,  by  the  judement  of  the  court  of  Kinr's. 
bench  to-day.  Why,  says  he,  I  hope  m 
Sandwich  ikies  not  mean  to  dismiss  him  ktm 
his  office.  I  said,  why  I  see  no  reason  he 
should  not  do  it.  He  took  me  aside  to  ano- 
ther box ;  he  said,  if  lord  Sandwich  would 
not  proceed  farther  in  this  business,  captain 
Bailue  would  be  very  willing  to  give  up  all 
his  papers,  otherwise  they  must  be  jpriate^ 
and  I  wish  you  would  tell  lord  Sandwich  this. 
I  took  the  earliest  opportonit^,  I  believe  the 
next  momioe  with  nis  lordship  at  breakfiut ; 
he  despised  the  threat  of  his  publication,  and 
said,  he  would  hear  no  more  of  the  w^ject 
[LancekA  Brown,  esq.  witMrew.] 

Edward  Bearcrofty  Esq.  called  in. 

I  beg  to  know,  whether  y(Mi  were  one  of 
captain  BaiUie's  counsel,  m  the  court  of 
Kme's-bench  ? — ^I  was. 

Was  Mr.  Murphy  one  of  his  counsel  ?--4Ie 
was. 

Had  you  any  authcmty,  firom  captain  Bail- 
lie,  to  treat,  in  order  to  brins  about  an  aooom- 
modation  between  him  and  lord  Sandwich? 
— -I  have  already  said,  that  I  was  (me  of  cap* 
tain  Baillio*s  counsel ;  I  know  nothing  that 
has  the  most  distant  relation  to  the  busineu 
before  your  lordships,  but  strictly  and  merely 
in  the  character  of  counsello  captain  Bailli^ 
in  the  court  of  Kinff's4)ench,  befi>re  thatfau- 
siness  came  on ;  inuiat  situation  I  conceived, 
and  I  trust  your  lordships  will  be  of  the  same 
opinion,  that  I  ought  not  to  be  examined  to 
any  thing  that  passed  between  captain  Baillie 
and  me,  merely  and  simply ;  I  repeat  the 
words  again,  because  they  convey  ray  idea 
upon  the  subject,  in  the  character  of  client 
and  counsel. 

The  Earl  of  Sandwich,  I  have  no  desire  of 
examining  you,  unless  captain  Baillie  consents 
that  you  stull  be  examined ;  and  therefore  I 
desire  captain  BaiUie  may  be  called  to  the 
bar. 

Captain  Bail^  called  in. 

I  desire  captain  Baillie  may  be  asked,  whe- 
ther he  consents  and  desires,  Uuit  Mr.  Bear- 
crofl  should  be  examined,  touching  the  pro- 
posal of  an  accommodation  with  me;  air. 
bearcroft  being  his  counsel? — A,  I  do  not 
rightly  conceive  upon  what  points  your  lord- 
ship speaks  to.* 

The  Earl  of  Sandmieh.  Upon  the  proposal 
of  an  accommodation  between  you  and  me. 

Capt.  BailUe,  I  wish  Mr.  Bearcroft  may 
speak  to  every  thing  in  general  that  he  wit 
employed  in  by  me,  rentive  lo  the  whole 
transactions  of  Greenwich  Hospital;  I  ha^e 

♦  ^oipOrif, 


40S]        n$pecHng  the  Ro^  HaspM  4t  Greemoich,        A.  D.  1778; 


1410 


I  tM  ymir  lordflhi|»  before^  and 
shaD  be  my  happy  that  he  mav  be  eia- 
puaaoi  opoo  every  point  your  lonutups  thiak 
proper. 

Mr.  Bearero^  edled  to  the  bar  again. 

Had  you  anv  authority  from  captain  Bailiie 
to  treaty  in  order  to  bring  about  an  accommo- 
dation between  him  and  me  ? — ^My  lords^  I 
understand  captain  Bailiie.  and  I  wish  he 
would  understand  that  I  do  so  understand 
him;  that  he  has  no  manner  of  objection  to 
my  disclosing  any  thing  that  I  happened  to 
knoOT  from  lum.    Is  it  so,  Sir  ? 

Capt.  J&uY/ie.    Yes. 

Mr.  Bearcrqft,  I  never  had  any  direct  au- 
thority from  captain  Bailiie  to  propose  any 
accommodation  with  my  lord  Sandwich ;  Init 
I  would  give  what  will  be  an  answer  to  the 
question;  I  presume  that  is  an  account  of 
any  thing  that  relates  to  a  proposition  of  an 
aocoramodation  in  any  degree  on  the  part  of 
eaptatn  Bailiie.  ^  I  was  one  of  the  counsel  for 
captain  Bailiie ;  after  some  conversation  with 
him,  seeing  a  state  of  his  case,  and  an  ac- 
quaintance with  the  affidavits  that  he  meant 
to  produce,  I  was  struck  with  a  strong  wish 
to  serve  captain  Bailiie ;  upon  the  considera- 
tion of  what  was  the  best  way  to  serve  him, 
it  struck  me  that  an  accommodation  was  the 
best  way  to  serve  Uuta ;  I  was  determined  to 
propose  it,  as  fiur  as  it  became  me  in  the  cha- 
racter of  counsel,  to  do  it,  and  not  to  go  a  bit 
further  out  of  that  character ;  I  told  captain 
Baiitie,  therefore,  that  I  was  very  ready  in 
anv  way  to  sound  the  counsel  on  the  other 
side,  if  such  a  thing  was  practicable ;  I  there- 
fore desired  to  know  of  him  if  he  had  any  ob- 
jection to  tint  being  done ;  I  will  do  captain 
Bailiie  complete  justice ;  he  seemed  to  me  at 
first  to  be  extremely  averse  to  any  thing  of 
the  kind ;  at  last,  I  perfectly  recollect  that  he 
did  authorise  me  to  sound  at  distance  the 
counsel  on  the  other  side,  whether  any  ac- 
commodation could  be  made  of  the  business, 
and  that  before  it  came  on  in  the  court  of 
King's-bench ;  in  consequence  of  that  autho- 
rity^ I  did  at  a  distance,  and  a  very  great  one, 
sound  the  counsel  on  the  other  side,  meaning 
that  it  should  not  be  understood  on  the  other 
side,  that  I  had  any  actual  authority,  or  desire 
on  uie  part  of  captain  Bailiie,  to  make  such 
an  apphcatiom;  I  received  such  an  answer, 
thilt  discouraged  me  from  goii^  any  farther ; 
the  particuhu's  of  the  answer  1  do  not  recol- 
Icoty  but  it  gave  me  an  idea  that  nothing  of 
the  sort  would  be  hearkened  to,  and  therdbre 
I  desisted ;  that  I  reported  to  captain  Bailiie. 

4>o.  you  recollect  whether  captain  Bailiie 
had  any  conversation  with  you  and  Mr.  Mur- 
phy nt  your  chambers  upon  the  subject  of 
your  n^gocintbug  for  him  r-^Most  certainly ; 
•i  several  diffsreirt  times. 

Can  you  t^  whether  captain  Bailiie  con- 
•ulted  most  with  you  or  Mr.  Murphy  upon 
fhiijiibject  of  negociating  ?— I  cannot  say  at 


all;  itappeared  t6  methathecottfiitad  «■ 
both  equally. 

Can  you  tell  who  settled  oaptahi  BaiHk'a 
affidavits  for  the  court  of  Kinrs-bench.  and 
prepared  hb  brief  for  couna3?^I  bdaeveu 
ana  am  sure,  indeed,  that  Mr.  Murpl^  settled 
the  affidavits ;  I  am  sure  it  was-so. 

Do  you  think  that  Mr.  Mivphy  vHn  aH 
much  captain  Baillie's  confidential  counsel  as 
yourself  r— It  is  extremely  difficult  to  measure 
the  degroes  of  confidence  in  the  utuation  «f 
the  several  counsel ;  but  I  have  no  reason  to 
observe,  or  upon  recollection  to  say,  but  Umt 
equal  confidence  was  reposed  in  either  of  as. 

Did  you,  in  consequence  of  the  authority 

Siven  to  you,  or  agreed  between  captain  Bad- 
e  and  yourself,  attempt  to  bring  abouiany 
kind  of  neeociation  ?— -I  certainly  bad  autho- 
rity, as  I  before  meant,  and  I  hope  did  de- 
clare to  your  lordships,  to  sound  the  counsel 
on  the  other  side,  in  the  business  4n  the  court 
of  King's-bench,  to  trv  if  tliere  was  any  pid- 
bability  that  such  a  thing  should  be  carrM 
fo|ward. 

The  Earl  of  Sandwich.  Did  you  ever  hear, 
receive,  or  know  of  any  proposal  made  by  me, 
or  l^  any  body  employed  by  me,  to  nego- 
date  ?— No,  my  lord ;  certainly  not. 

Mr.  Bearcrof^  has  been  asked,  whether  he 
was  present  at  any  meetings  with  Mr.  Mur* 
phy  and  Mr.  Bailiie  where  this  business  was 
talked  of  P — Several,  I  think. 

Whether  that  was  prior  to  the  decisioii  in 
the  court  of  Kine's-bench,  or  subsequent  ^-^ 
Prior,  I  believe ;  1  am  almost  sure.* 

[Edwaid  Bealcroft,  esq.  withdrew.] 

Arthur  Murphy^  esq.  called  in. 

Whether  you  had  any  authority  to  treat 
with  Mr.  Butler  at  the  time  of  your  conversa- 
tion with  him  at  Serle's  Coffeehouse?-—! 
hope  the  noble  lord  will  pardon  me,  if  befme 
I  answer  the  question,  I  beg  leave  to  address 
a  few  words,  a  very  few  to  your  lordships ;  I 
am  aware  that  I  troubled  your  lordships  when 
I  was  here  before  with  objections  to  being 
examined.  I  dp  not  come  now  to  demur  to  a 
single  question ;  but  I  must  beg  leave  to  si^, 
that  to  the  objections  that  I  then  had,  I  hope 
your  lordships  will  allow  that  I  may  add  to 
the  catalogue  of  my  objections  to  my  future 
government  some  additional  ones,  because  I 
could  not  foresee  then  every  thing  that  hap- 
pened; I  could  not  foresee,  that  afW  I  had 
given  my  evidence,  captain  Bailiie  standing 
at  my  elbow,  that  three  days  aftowards,  he 
was  to  be  called  to  your  bar,  behind  my  baek,f 
without  notice  to  me  to  read  a  prepared-^ 

*  It  11  no  wonder  eaptain  Bailiie  tlioolii  have 
oonsented  to  a  negooiadon  at  the  desire  of  Ua 
counsel,  when  he  was  ready  to  be  OYerwhelmed  witli 
six  prosecations ;  bat  it  is  very  nnlikelj  he  shoold 
propose  one  when  all  the  nles  were  disoharsed»  to 
the  general  joy  of  a  crowded  eoort     Orig,  Ei 

t  Mr.  Mnrphy  nrast  knew  that  no  wltaeafdara 
rtply,  witbonl  betag-  eafied  npon  so  to  do.    OHg, 


411] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thanuu  BaiUief  .       [412 


I  dont  know  what  to  call  jt ;  I  don't  wonder 
at  captain  Baillie*s  struggling ;  I  don't  won- 
der at  his  sjpeakine  tlie  language  of  disap- 
pointed passions;  nut  it  woula  have  been 
manly  in  captain  Baillie  (for  I  have  been 
used  where  a  witness  has  been  contradicted 
to  see  them  confronted)  it  would  have  been 
manly  then  to  have  desired  it  whilst  I  was 
.  here ;  since  that  was  not  done,  notice  of  the 
three   days    preparation  might    have   been 

S'ven  to  me  as  a  gentleman  at  the  bar ;  and 
ough  I  do  not  pretend  to  be  of  a  size  to  have 
.  deserved  that  from  any  lord  of  parliament ; 
yet  I  do  presume  to  say  that  mi^ht  have  been 
a  delicacy  not  unworthy  of  any  lord  of  parlia- 
ment ;  having  said  that,  I  beg  leave  to  say  to 
.  your  lordships' thu  I  have  in  my  hand  an  ex- 
'tract  of  all  the  passages  in  captain  BaiHie*s 
last  evidence  that  relate  to  me ;  and  1  do  beg 
that  there  may  be  reference  to  the  notes,  that 
it  may  be  seen  whether  1  have  extracted  them 
ftirly  myself,  that  I  may  comment  upon  them 
paragraph  by  paramph. 

[Arthur  Murphy,  esq.  withdrew] 


Mondayy  May  i7, 1779. 

Arthur  Murphy,  esq.  called  in  again  by 
lord  Sandwich ;  some  objections  made  by 
lords  on  the  other  side,  but  carried  in  the 
affirmative. 

Whether  there  was  any  injunction  of  se- 
crecy laid  on  captain  Baillie  respecting  the 
negociation? — ^Tnere  was,  in  the  strongest 
terms  that  could  be  required. 

By  whom? — By  me;  and  it  was  on  the 
morning  after  I  saw  lord  Sandwich  at  the  Ad- 
miralty, on  a  Tuesday,  I  appointed  Mr.  But- 
-  ler,  who  Was'  at  the  Admiralty  at  the  same 
time ;  I  was  to  be  at  my  chambers  the  next 
day  at  eleven  o'clock ;  I  told  him  I  should  let 
capt.  Baillie  know  it,  that  the  meeting  should 
be  at  that  time,  and  in  Mr.  Butler's  presence, 
before  I  opened'  a  sinsle  syllable  ot  the  con- 
versation I  had  with  lord  Sandwich,  I  stipu- 
lated secrecv  for  myself,  telling  him  I  knew 
•  mentioh  hadf  been  made  in  this  house  of  an 
enquiry,  and  that,  let  what  would  come  of  the 
negocialion,  I  desired  never  to  become  a  wit- 
ness or  have  my  name  mentioned  about  it, 
and  endeavoured  to  imnress  upon  his  mind, 
as  strongly  as  I  could,  tne  nature  of  all  ne- 
gociations  of  that  kind,  that  gentlemen  wish- 
ed  to  have  them  private,  and  therefore  he  did 
promise  secrecy  absolutely  respecting  me. 

Was  that  with  or  without  any  condition  ? — 
An  absolute  general  promise,  and  I  did  not  at 
that  time  tlunk  him  capable  of  any  mental 
reservation  whatever ;  if  1  had  thought  so, 
I  should  not  have  entered  at  all  into  the  bu- 
siness. 

Did  lord  Sandwich  impose  secrecy  ? — ^The 
onlv  word  out  of  his  loroship's  mouth  tliat 
could  import  any  thine  like  it  was  what  | 
mentioned  when  1  was  here  last,  '<  1  converse 
with  you  because  1  beUeve,  or  know  you  to 


be  a  man  of  honour;"  I  understood  them 
thus ;  1  talk  with  you  as  a  man  of  honour, 
and  therefore  rely  upon  your  honour,  that  you 
will  at  all  times  do  me  justice  relative  to  this 
conversation. 

Had  capt  BaiUie  any  reason  to  believe  that 
lord  Sandwich  reqmred  secrecy? — ^Not  a 
word  of  the  kind  dropt  froin  me,  and  I  should 
have  done  lord  Sanawich  imustice  if  I  had 
represented  that  ever  his  lordship  did  require 
secrecy. 

For  whom  then  did  you  require  secrecy  ? — 
For  myself  alone,  giving  every  reason  that 
occurred  to  me,  teiline  how  odious  it  would  be 
to  me  at  anv  time  to  be  a  witness. 

Do  you  know  of  any  authority  given  by 
capt.  Bailtie  to  Mr.  Bearcroft  to  nesociate  for 
him  f — I  was  not  present  when  that  matter 
first  passed  between  capt.  Baillie  and  Mr. 
Bearcroft ;  the  first  I  heard  of  that  which  was 
from  Mr.  Bearcroft,  before  I  heard  of  that 
capt.  Baillie  and  1  had  conversation  upon 
that  subject;  Mr.  Bearcroft  told  me  capt. 
Baillie  was  willine  to  negociate  and  compro- 
mise the  matter  if  it  coind  be  done ;  I  told 
him  I  always  found  him  so  disposed,  he  said 
he  found  some  difficulty  with  him.  I  said  I 
found  none,  for  upon  mat  subject  he  always 
seemed  consistent ;  I  was  then  drawins  out 
the  affidavits  from  him.  I  said  I  always 
found  him  consistent  with  what  he  had  sworn 
to ;  the  purport  of  the  affidavits  was,  that  he  was 
always  willing  to  resign  upon  a  compensation ; 
I  always  understood  him  to  be  willing  to  quit 
the  Hospital,  if  that  could  be  done  for  him. 
From  the  first  time  I  saw  capt.  Baillie,  1  still 
was  employed  in  drawing  nis  affida%its,  a 
thing  I  never  did  for  any  man  in  my  life  be^ 
fore.  I  said  1  should  like  to  go  to  Mr.  Bear- 
croft's  chambers  to  tell  him  the  plan  upoa 
which  I  was  going  to  draw  up  those  affidavits ; 
he  went  with  me,  after  a  httle  conversation 
upon  the  subject  of  the  affidavits ;  we  then 
talked  of  negociating ;  it  was  the  clearest,  the 
fullest  consent  to  both  of  us  to  bring  about  a 
negociation  if  we  could.  Mr.  Bearcroft  then, 
in  capt.  Baillie's  presence,  proposed  how  he 
should  do  it ;  he  said  we  will  talk  to  the  So- 
licitor Genmrd ;  if  he  will  encoura^  us  to 
treat  with  him,  we  will  co  up  into  his  cham- 
bers, shew  him  our  briera,  we  will  shew  him 
how  the  rule  in  the  King's-bench  must  be 
discharged,  and  eive  him  eveij  reason  why  it 
is  better  to  end  the  matter  mthis  manner, 
and  do  it  if  we  can ;  nothing  more  passed  in 
the  presence  of  Mr.  Bearcroft. 

Did  Mr.  Bearcroft  and  you  talk  with  the 
Solicitor  General  on  that  subject  of  nepxaa* 
tion? — I  believe  Mr.  Bearcroft  did,  for  he 
told  me  so ;  I  myself  did^  but  had  not  suffi- 
cient encouragement  from  the  Solicitor  Ge- 
neral to  go  very  far.  I  made  all  the  ap- 
proaches to  it  tliat  1  could>  and  as  I  said  be- 
fore, he  save  those  half  expressed  aaswets 
that  I  collected  firom  him;  he  had  no  autho* 
rity  I  believe  when  I  first  spoke  to  lum,  thiit 
he  had  not  his  brief;  he  sigmfied,  thai  if 


413]        rcqtecHng  the  Royal  HotfUal  ai  Greenwich.         A.  D.  1778. 


[414 


there  was  any  such  intention,  he  should  hear 
of  it 

Did  you  mention  it  to  captain  Baillie  ? — 
YeSy  I  did,  and  that  I  should  certainly  try  it 
in  another  way.    I  bad  seen  Mr.  Garrick. 

Did  you  try  it  any  other  way  ? — I  had  oc^ 
casion  to  see  Mr.  Garrick,  which  I  did  in  the 
latter  end  of  October,  and  understanding  that 
Mr.  Garrick  was  living  in  society  witn  lord 
Sandwich,  I  took  occasion  to  mention  it  to 
him.  I  never  saw  Mr.  Garrick  afterwards, 
so  I  did  the  same  to  Dr.  Shepherd.  Capt. 
Bailhe  was  in  my  chambers  at  the  same  time ; 
I  remember  as  soon  as  Dr.  Shepherd  was 
gone,  I  told  captain  BailUe  that  I  believed 
Siat  was  a  nail  that  would  drive;  I  told  him 
of  Mr.  Brown  also.  I  told  him  constantly 
what  expectations  or  hopes  I  had.  I  told 
him  all  I  did ;  he  never  retracted  the  authority 
he  bad  given ;  he  never  countermanded  them ; 
on  the  contrary,  he  always  seemed  pleased 
with  every  effort  I  told  him  of.* 

When  were  you  retained  by  «apt.  Baillie  i 
— ^I  think  in  the  monUi  of  March  was  twelve 
months.  I  was  on  the  circuit,  when  he  ap- 
plied to  me;  I  went  into  the  coffee-house, 
when  I  came  to  town,  before  I  went  to  my 
chambers :  they  said  a  captain  Baillie  wanted 
me ;  he  asked  them  if  there  was  any  attorney 
I  psirticularly  used;  they  happened  to  know 
that  Mr.  Shepherd,  in  Boswell-court,  had 
been  employ^  on  my  reconmiendation ;  he 
went  to  him,  and  he  came  with  a  retainer  to 
me;  then  I  saw  captain  Baillie  and  his  pam- 
phlet for  the  first  tune.  I  gave  him  my  opi- 
nion about  his  pamphlet.  I  said  I  should  be 
glad  to  see  him  the  next  Sunday ;  from  that 
moment  I  believe  I  was  captain  Baillie's  con- 
fidential adviser  throughout :  I  was  the  per- 
son that  advised  him  to  retain  Mr.  Bearcroft ; 
he  said  Mr.  Dunnmg  and  other  gentlemen  of 
great  eminence,  he  had  been  at  their  chamber. 
they  were  retained ;  I  ssud  I  could  not  stand 
alone ;  there  goes  by  a  gentleman,  a  king's 
counsel  of  great  abilities,  retain  him,  that  was 
Mr.  Bearcroft-t  I  did  every  thing  when  his 
enquiry  was  depending ;  if  he  deliv^ed  a  letter 
to  uie  directors — ^who  wrote  it  for  him  ? — ^I. 
— ^If  a  letter  to  the  Admiralty,  who  wrote  it 
for  him?-^I. — ^When  his  affidavits  were  to 
be  wrote,  there  were  300  sheets^  who  was  to 
draw  that?  I  said  I  would. 

Did  capt.  Baillie  ever  desire  you  to  make 
these  applications  ? — ^Ido  not  know  that  he 
desired  me  to  make  them :  I  have  not  said 
that.  I  think  when  I  was  here  last,  I  said  as 
my  recollection  is,  he  did  not  imme^ately  de- 

*  it  is  very  extraordinary  that  captain  Baillie, 
wlio,  hj  Mr.  Jlearcroft*8  eyidenoe,  waa  so  anwilling 
to  treftt  even  before  the  trial »  when  fine  and  impri- 
soBinent  stared  him  in  the  fiioe,  that  he  should  be  so 
eager  afterwards  to  catch  at  every  straw.    Orig,  Ed^ 

t  Mr,  Bearoroft  was  abaolntel/  retMned  nam  a 
pttilealBr  firMndthip,  in  a  part  of  captain  Baillie's 
Cuuly  eomieclioBB  with  Mr.  Baarorofl's  brother  and 
eMiysad  Mr  Bearoroft  has  proved  UsuMlf  an  ho- 
aonUonaa,    Orig,  Ed* 


sire  me,  but  he  knew  of  them  and  approved  of 
them,  and  so  I  stat^  in  a  letter  I  bald  the  ho- 
nour to  write  to  his  grace  the  duke  of  Rich* 
mond. 

What  was  the  date  of  that  letter?— The 
sixth  of  April. 

Had  capt.  Baillie  any  reason  from  you  to 
suppose  that  Mr.  Butler's  direction  came  im- 
meoiately  and  directly  iirom  lord  Sandwich  ? — 
If  captain  Baillie  means  by  the  message  or 
answer  I  had  from  lord  Sandwich,  by  Mr. 
Butler,  I  did  myself  understand  it  came  di- 
rectly fix>m  lord  Sandwich,  and  I  told  him  so 
— ^If  captain  Baillie  believes  that  I  had  on  the 
Monday,  or  any  other  day  during  my  life,  any 
message  from  lord  Sandwich,  he  had  not  the 
smallest  reason  for  i\;  for  I  never  received 
any  message  firom  lord  Sandwich  during  my 
whole  life,  except  as  I  said  before,  that  I  had 
an  invitation  on  the  circuit  to  sup  at  Hinchin* 
broke. 

Did  captain  Baillie  ever  tell  vou  that  he 
heard  it  rumoured  in  the  Hospital^  tbat  it  was 
intended  to  remove  him  by  giving  him  an 
equivalent? — Captain  Baillie  told  me  he  had 
heard  in  the  Hospital,  that  the  directors  had 
presented  a  new  Memorial  to  the  Admiralty, 
requesting  that  captain  BaiUie  should  be  re- 
moved from  the  Hospital,  with  an  equivalent* 
provision;  I  said  if  that  is  done,  that  will  be 
like  men  of  honour,  that  will  be  an  end  to 
this  whole  matter,  and  very  fair  for  you.— The 
next  time  he  saw  me,  he  said  there  was  no 
such  thii^ ;  I  said  I  had  reason  to  believe  it' 
was  mis-mformation,  for  I  understood  from 
Mr.  Brown  to  the  contrary,  that  there  was  an 
intention  to  dismiss  him. 

Was  the  meeting  between  you  and  Mr. 
Butler  at  the  coffee-house  in  Lincoln's  Inn* 
accidental,  or  otherwise  ? — I  said  before  it  was 
from  Mr.  Thrale's  I  came,  that  is  hardly  worth 
correcting,  I  believe  it  was  from  another  part 
of  the  country  that  I  came — I  came  hy  chance 
that  morning  into  the  coffee-iaouse ;  I  saw 
Mr.  Butler;  it  was  purely  accidental  on  my 
part ;  Mr.  Baillie  has  since  often  asked  me, 
whether  Mr.  Butler  mieht  not  put  himself  in 
my  way  on  purpose,  that  I  have  said  I  could 
notjpossibly  say ;  it  was  accidental  on  my  part. 

Who  began  the  conversation  upon  that 
subject? — WheUier  Mr.  Butler  came  there 
accidentally  or  not,  I  cannot  say,  but  in  the 
way  the  conversation  was  between  us^  I  was* 
the  first  mover  of  it. 

Did  captain  Baillie  himself  negociate  with 
Mr.  Butler? — Yes,  he  did,  but  not  at  that 
time ;  I  believe  he  was  not  so  much  a9  ac- 
quainted with  Mr.  Butler  till  I,  on  the  Wed- 
nesday morning  following,  introduced  him. 

Did  you,  on  the  Wednesday,  say  any  thing 
to  captain  Baillie  of  the  meeting  between  you 
and  Mr.  Butler  on  the  Friday?— When  we 
met  on  the  W^ednesday  morning,  I  introduced 
Mr.  Butlerto  him ;  Sir,  this  is  the  gentleman 
to  whom  you  are  obl^ed  for  carrying  my 
m^sage  to  lord  Sandwich ;  theQ  I  told  him 
all  that  had  passed  relative  to  that  matter 


415] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Cats  nf  Captain  l%oma$  BMie,  [416 


over  in  Mr.  Butler*s  presence,  telHnc  captain 
BuUie^  that  iny  reason  for  taking  at)  that  up 
so  early  was,  that  Mr.  Butler  being  p^osent^ 
might  correct  any  mistake. 

Charles  Butler,  esq.  called  in  again  by  Lord 

Sandwich. 

The  Earl  of  StmdwiGh,  Mr.  Murphv  con- 
sidered you,  I  believe,  as  my  counsel? — He 
did. 

In  that  capacity,  had  you  any  particular  di- 
Kctioas  from  me  to  make  that  n^ociation 
secret^— I  had  not  the  slightest  directions 
from  lord  Sandwich,  at  any  time,  to  make  the 
nei^iation  secret^ 

Did  you  desire  captein  Baillie  to  make  il  a 
secret?-^!  certainly  did,  at  bolk  themeelinfls 
which  I  had  with  captain  Baillie  at  w. 
Murphy*s  chambers.  At  the  first  meeting, 
the  nrst  thing  that  was  said^  was  a  desire  that 
an  agreement  oa  all  parties,  that  whatever 
turs  the  business  migtit  take,  that  it  was  to 
remain  an  entire  secret.  I  had  not  any  par- 
ticular directions  from  lord  Sandwkk  to  nnke 
that  agreement,  but  i  thought  it  was  my  duty 
to  dchso^  and  I  believe  it  was. 

Did  Mr.  Murphy,  at  the  first  meeting  at  his 
-chambers,  inform  captain  Baillie  of  wmit  had 
pi^saed  at  Serle's  cofiee-housef — ^The  first 
thing  that  Mr.  Murphy  said  at  his  chambers, 
ailer  mentioning,  that  whatever  event  the  bu- 
siness might  have,  it  was  to  be  kept  a  secret, 
was  to  inmrm  captain  Baillie  of  every  thin^ 
that  had  passed  at  Serle's  cofiee-house,  and 
appWins  to  me  to  say,  whether  it  was  accu* 
rate^  tmd  or  not. 

Do  you  think  it  was  possible  for  him  to 
ttippose,  that  the  first  time  you  came  to  Mr. 
Murphy's  chambers,  was  the  first  time  you 
had  ever  spoke  to  him  of  the  business  ? — It 
waa  utterly  impossible,  in  my  apprehension. 

Whether  you  have  ever  said  that  captain 
BMUia  wasamanof  an  uneovemahle  intern- 
pQiate  mind,  that  he  made  nimself  odious  to 
Qvery  rank  of  men  in  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — 
I  never  used  those  exmssiQas  either  in  this 
House,  or  out  of  thiaHQusei  being  desired, 
and  I  may  say,  compalled  to  r^|Mat  what  had 
pasaed  between  kvd  Sandwich  and  myself,  I 
ibMght  I  was  bound  bgr  my  oalfa  to  represent 
what  loid  Sandwich  hod  said ;  his  kvdahip 
nM  turtain  BaiUie  waa  a  man  of  an  ungoK 
vemable  mind,  and  had  made  himaelf  odieiiB 
taaMfaBkaofmenintheHotpilal.  ItMuld 
hava  been  exceedingly  indecent,  I  apprehend, 
filff  n^selftohttve  said  so,  I  cmiy  represented 
it  as  what  I  heard  another  person  say. 

Was  not  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  present  at  the 
maottng  you  had  with  lord  Sandwich  ?— He 


Was  Mr.  Cooke  ever  told  that  what  passed 
ai  that  i— rting  was  to  be  kept  a  secaet,  to 
your  knowledge  ? — ^I  believe  he  was.    I  know 

*  Tktm  wby  ifcoiild  oiw  party  b«  booed  to  te- 
sadao^tbtolbiel    Ory*M 


I  considered  myself  concerned  in  a  veiy  nice 
business,  and  therefore  it  was  my  constant 
language  to  all  parties  not  to  mention  it;  I 
therefore  believe  it  was  mentioned  to  Mr. 
Cooke,  but  at  this  moment  of  time,  I  cannoi 
immediately  recollect  that  it  was,  but  I  beheve 
it  was. 

You  considered  the  business  of  so  delicate  a 
nature,  that  it  ought  to  be  a  secret.  Do  I  ap- 
preheiid  you  might  f — ^Yes. 

Then  be  so  good  as  to  explain  why  nothing 
was  said  to  Mr.  Cooke  that  you  know  of,  to 
tell  him  he  was  to  keep  it  a  secret  ? — ^I  endes- 
voured  to  tell  your  lordships,  and  perhaps  I 
was  unfortunate  in  my  manner,  I  believe  it 
was  mentioned  to  Mr.  Cooke,  but  I  don^ 
know  that  it  was;  I  considered  that  every 
person  that  was  concerned  in  the  buuness  at 
aU,  whether  he  had  an  obli^tion  of  secrecy 
immediately  imposed  upon  him  or  not,  he  was 
equally  bound  to  keep  the  matter  secret,  be- 
cause an  afiair  of  that  kind  cannot  be  men- 
tioned in  the  world,  without  each  side  misre- 
presenting it  seme  how ;  that  misrepreseatsr 
tion,  I  was  cautious  ei,  and  therefore  I,  aM 
along,  recommended,  as  I  think  it  was  ny 
duty  to  do,  secrecy  on  all  hands. 

Bv  whom  was  that  mentioned  to  Mr. 
Cooke  I — ^I  believe  by  myself;  I  am  certain  it 
was  not  mentioned  to  Mr.  Cooke  while  mv 
lord  Sandwich  was  present.  Xord  Sandwidi 
retired  into  another  room  from  that  which  the 
conversation  was  carried  on  in;  afkr  that 
Mr.  Murphy  and  myself  talked  some  little 
time,  and  a  very  short  time,  with  Mr.  Cooke; 
I  do  not  recollect  that  it  was  mentioned  there 
that  he  was  to  keep  it  secret;  but  as  I  have 
seen  Mr.  Cooke  frequently  since,  and  as  I  was 
anxious  that  the  matter  should  be  a  secret,  I 
think  it  exceeding  probable,  though  my  me- 
morv  does  not  furnish  me  with  any  precise 
recollection,  that  I  did  enjoin  secrecy,  but  I 
am  sure,  in  lord  Sandwich's  room,  in  ms  lord- 
ship's presence,  no  secrecy  was  enjoined  ts 
him. 

Whether  it  was  or  not  mentioned  to  Mr. 
Cooke,  do  you  know  whether  he  ever  did  di- 
vulge it? — Perhaps  I  may  say  a  thing  sinr 
pilar;  but  if  I  tad  known  that  Mr.  Cedn 
nad  menttoned  it,  I  should  say  that  thai  wa| 
matter  of  opinion  ;  but  as  I  have  not  the 
slightest  idea  that  Mr.  Cooke  ever  mentioned 
it  to  anv  one  person,  I  can  only  answer,  tiai 
to  the  best  of^my  knowledse  and  infbrmatioB, 
he  did  not ;  he  may  have  done  it,  b«l  I  never 
aaked  him  about  it. 

Have  you  any  knowledge  or  particular  rea- 
son to  believe  that  captain  Baillie  was  the 
first  person  that  ever  dia  mention  it  ?— I  have 
a  suspicion  that  he  did  mention  it,  but  it  i| 
exceedingly  slight. 

Not  enough  to  speak  to  as  a  matter  of 
knowledge  ?— I  am  so  far  certain  in  my  own 
mind»  that  I  belwve  it,  but  1  have  not  tM 
iafi)rmatiDn  which  I  could  produce  to  tw 
Eouae,  or  any  company,  that  ne  had  denejt 

Can  you  recollect  how  many  poopk 


417}        respeeHng  tie  Aoyal  Hospital  at  GreBwtoich.        A.  D.  1778. 


[41* 


tfris  secret  ? — I  can  only  answer  to  one  person. 
That  no  one  person  ever  heard  it  from  me. 

How  many  were  acquainted  with  the  secret  ? 
—Lord  Sandwich,  Mr.  Murphy,  Mr.  BaiUie, 
ffir.  Bailhe's  brother,  and  myself. 

And  Mr.  Cooke  ? — ^Yes,  and  Mr.  Cooke. 

[Mr.  Butler  withdrew  ] 

Hev.  Mr.  Cooke  called  in. 

WhAher  you  at  any  time  used  any  expres- 
9on  of  intimidation  to  Mr.  Lefevre,  such  as 
^ying,  that  those  persons  would  be  marked 
By  Ion!  Sandwiclu  who  shewed  themselves  at- 
tached to  captain  Baillie  ? — I  never  did  circu- 
kte  any  reports,  upon  my  lord  Sandwich's 
authority,  about  Greenwich  Hospital,  nor  did 
I  circulate  such  a  report  as  is  attributed  to  me, 
nor  did  I  assume  any  authority  from  any  body 
todoh. 

The  question  is,  whether  you  did  ever  say 
iach  a  thing  to  Mr.  Lefevre  ? — I  never  did 
^  any  such  thing  to  Mr.  Lefevre. 

Then  I  ask  you  upon  your  oath,  whether 
there  ever  did  come  out  of  lord  Sandwich's 
mouth  to  you,  any  authority,  or  anv  words 
that  led  that  way,  that  lord  Sandwich  would 
mark  persons  who  sided  with  captain  Baillie  ? 
— ^Never. 

You  hatl  no  such  authority  from  lord  Sand- 
wich } — Never. 

Did  you  ever  make  use  of  any  such  word  ? 
• — ^I  never  did  make  use  of  any  such  expres- 
sions from  lord  Sandwich,  or  any  person 
whatever. 

Did  you  ever  make  use  of  any  such  words 
to  any  person  whatever  ?— I  never  did  to  any 
pei^h'  whatever. 

I  beg  Mr.  Cooke  to  answer  whether  he  had 
ever  any  conversation  with  Mr.  Lefevre  at  all  ? 
— t  have  had  conversations  with  Mr.  Le- 
fevre, and  as  it  is  a  thing  of  very  great  conse- 
quence io  me  what  he  has  advanced  at  the 
Dai*  of  this  House,  I  have  taken  some  pains 
to  recollect,  though  I  cannot  possibly  be  ac- 
curate to  every  part  of  the  conversation. — 
The  first  conversation  was  at  the  distance  of 
near  three  years ;  the  second  conversation  is 
more  than  a  twelvemonth ;  the  latter  is  of  a 
later  date;  I  have  therefore  taken  a  great 
deal  of  pains  to  recollect  the  conversation 
that  has  passed  between  Mr.  Lefevre  and  my- 
self at  various  times,  and  particularly  at  those 
ttmes  whidh  he  has  mentioned ;  I  have  com- 
mitted those  to  paper ;  if  your  lordships  please 
to  hear  them,  if  not,  I  am  ready  to  answer 
^y  question  the  committee  may  be  pleased 
to  put  to  me. 

If  atiy  questions  I  ask  vou  are  such  as  you 
do  not  choose  to  answer,  he  so  kind  as  to  say 
80,  and  I  shall  not  press  them.  Do  you  re- 
collect the  dates  of  tnose  conversations  which 
you  have  had  with  Mr.  Lefevre  the  younger, 
concerning  the  a£&irs  of  Greenwicli  Hospital  ? 
— ^I  have  nad  some  conversations  with  Mr. 
liefevre  relative  to'  the  affairs  of  Greenwich 
Hospital. 

VOL.  XXI. 


Recollect  at  what  time? — I  think  in  the 
month  of  June,  1717. 

Do  you  recollect  any  other  ? — And  I  recol- 
lect having  a  conversiition  with  him  at  the 
time  he  mentions,  some  time  about  Aprij^ 
when  he  says  I  went  to  his  father's. 

In  what  year? — April,  1778,  and,  I  think, 
June,  1777 ;  I  have  had  various  conversations 
with  him  at  various  times. 

At  what  places  were  those  conversations 
held  ?— The  first  conversation  was,  I  think,  - 
on  my  journey  into  Suffolk ;  I  am  vicar  of  a 
small  living  in  Suffolk,  we  were  upon  the  ut- 
most intimacy  at  that  time ;  I  asked  him  to 
accompany  me  thither,  he  consented  to  it; 
accordingly  we  set  out,  and  on  our  jourliey, 
among  other  things,  we  talked  of  Greenwich 
Hospital,  and  we  talked  of  Mr.  Baillie,  and  of 
Mr.  Bail  lie's  conduct;  I  had  thought  well  of 
Mr.  Baillie;  I  had  reason  to  think  otherwise 
of  him  at  that  time;  I  mentioned  to  hinn 
that  I  thought  his  conduct  in  the  Hospital 
was  such  as  was  very  unaccountable,  and  I 
should  not  at  all  wonder  if  he  was  taken  no* 
tice  of  for  it;  Mr.  Lefevre  at  that  time  joined 
with  me ;  he  was  at  tliat  time  more  intiipate 
with  nie  than  he  was  with  captain  Baillie ; 
I  told  him,  I  thought  his  conduct  very  im- 
proper in  the  Hospital;  he  thought  so  too j 
he  acGuiesced  with  me  ;  and  at  that  time^ 
why  I  neld  out  captain  Baillie's  behaviour  to 
Mr.  Lefevre,  was,  that  I  thought  not  only  that 
he  had  behaved  improperly  with  respect  to 
his  conduct  at  the  board  of  directors,  and  at 
the*  council,  but  I  thought  he  had  behaved 
improperly  in  not  consioering  those  who  hsA 
appointed  him  there,  and  I  held  captain  BaiU 
lie  out  to  Mr.  Lefevre  as  an  example  of  ingra- 
titude, that  he  should  avoid,  \yhen  we  got 
to  my  living,  we  went  upon  a  visit  to  my  bro- 
ther at  Levenham,  ^yhere  it  has  been  said,  I 
received  an  extraordinary  letter  from  the 
steward  at  the  Hospital.  I  did  receive  a  letter 
from  the  steward,  Mr.  Gbdby,  who  wrote  me 
a  letter  respecting  the  case  of  the  butcher ;  it 
is  said  there  was  extraordinary  expressions  of 
exultation  and  triumph  in  favour  of  th^ 
butcher  in  that  letter.  I  remember  no  such 
expressions  as  Mr.  Lefevre  has  made  use  of. 
I  read  this  letter  to  my  brother,  who  was  then 
present,  and  Mr.  Lefevre ;  I  believe  nobody 
else  was  present ;  it  did  not  remain  upon  1113^ 
mind ;  I  tore  the  letter,  or  burnt  it — ^I  threw 
it  away,  I  thought  no  more  of  it ;  it  was  a 
matter  of  no  consideration  at  all  to  me. 
After  this,  in  our  journey  home,  we  agaii^ 
talked  of  the  affairs  of  Greenwich  Hospital, 
much  to  the  same  purpose  I  have  mentiuiierf 
now,  but  after  I  got  home  between  that  time 
and  the  Dec.  1777,  Mr.  Lefevre,  as  he  always 
used  to  do,  he  used  to  consult  me  about  his 
affairs,  and  about  his  propaotion,  and  I  must 
tell  your  lordsltups  I  was  even  instrumental  in 
his  being  made  a  lieutenant;  he  consulted 
me  upon  that.  I  said,  Mr.  Lefevre,  I  think  the 
only  way  you  have  to  get  promoted  is  to  go 
to  sea ;  you  have  never  oeen  at  sea  since  you 

3  £ 


419] 


18  GEORGE  III.  the  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaOlie,        [430 


was  made  a  lieutenant.  He  renewed  then  to 
me  an  offer  that  he  had  made  at  my  brother's^ 
that  if  I  would  get  him  made  master  and  com- 
mander, he  would  get  me  printed  to  a  con- 
siderable living  in  the  gifl  of  a  Mr.  Calcroft ; 
that  was  his  conversation  with  me ;  I  told  him 
I  was  much  obliged  to  him  for  his  kindness 
to  me,  and  indeed  I  did  not  wonder  at  hearine 
him  talk  of  offering  me  a  favour,  which  I  did 
not  think  a  favour  of  that  magnitude ;  I  told 
him  my  only  advice  to  him  was  to  go  to  the 
Admiralty,  to  go  to  lord  Sandwich^  he  had 
prompted  him  ocfore,  and  if  he  offered  his 
services,  he  would  remember  him.  He  went 
to  the  Admiralty,  he  said  he  was  well  re- 
ceived ;  I  found  afterwards  that  he  had  been 
so,  for  the  next  thii^  I  heard  was  he  was  em^ 
ployed,  and  sent  on  board  the  America,  fitting 
out  at  Deptford;  afler  this,  in  April  1778, 
Mr.  Lefewe  says  I  went  to  his  father's. 

My  questions  are  not  felative  to  Mr.  Le- 
fevre's  preferment,  but  relative  to  the  afiairs 
of  Greenwich  Hospital.  What  passed  at  the 
first  conversation  relative  to  the  affairs  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  and  captain  BailUe  ? — ^In 
April  1778,  Mr.  Lefevre  has  said  at  this  bar. 
that  I  went  to  his  house,  where  I  threatened 
•him  and  his  father ;  the  fact  is,  I  did  not  go  to 
his  house,  he  first  came  to  my  house  with  his 
father,  I  was  not  at  home,  he  left  a  message 
desiring  I  would  call  upon  him  as  soon  as  I 
returned ;  I  went  home  very  soon  after,  and 
being  told  the  message,  I  aid  call  upon  him 
immediately. 

At  what  time  was  this  ?— In  April,  177B,  I 
think. 

I  first  desire  to  know  the  conversation  in 
1777  ?— ^I^pecting  that,  I  mentioned  that  we 
had  a  conversation  relative  to  th^  affsdrs  of 
Greenwich  Hospital-  I  told  Mr.  Lefevre  I 
tiiought  captain  Baillie  acted  improperly  in 
the  affairs  of  the  Hospital,  and  I  really  thought 
his  behaviour  would  be  taken  notice  of— Tnat 
was  all  that  passed  between  us  at  thkt  time. 

What  did  you  mean  by  saying  you  thought 
it  would  be  taken  notice  of? — ^I  reedly  thought 
the  board  of  directors  would  complain  of  him ; 
that  was  my  opinion,  and  it  was  not  only  my 
opinion,  but  I  mentioned  it  to^the  governor. 

What  was  your  idea  that  they  were  to  com- 
plain of? — That  he  was  thwarting  every  tiung 
that  could  be  done,  he  thought  nobody's  opi- 
nion a  good  opinion  but  lus  own. 

Did  you  imag|ine  that  a  matter  for  the  dirte- 
tors  to  complam  of? — There  were  a  great 
number  of  propositions  to  the  board  that  tiie 
majority  thougnt  proper  of,  and  I  thought  if 
he  of>posed  them,  he  was  not  a  friend  to  the 
Hospital. 

Was  not  it  possible  that  captain  Baillie 
might  have  an  opinion  of  his  own  r — Certainly. 

And  was  that,  in  your  opinion,  a  crime  to 
be  taken  notice  of  in  the  board  ot  directors  ? 
— I  don't  say  a  crime;  it  was  a  kind  of  perse- 
verinz  behaviour,  that  became  uncomfortable 
and  disagreeable  to  every  person  that  sat 
tbtre. 


Did  jou  think  that  the  directors  would 
complain  of  captain  Baillie,  for  making  them 
uncomfortable  and  disagreeable,  for  pursuing 
his  own  opinion  ? — ^Not  for  pursuing  his  own 
opinion ;  out  that  he  wanted  to  counteract  the 
proceedings  of  the  board,  that  were  for  the 
good  of  Uie  Hospital,  as  it  was  my  opinion, 
and  several  others  at  the  time. 

Did  the  court  of  directors  ever  take  up  the 
conduct  of  captain  Baillie,  in  which  it  was 
evident  that  the  opinion  he  supported,  was,  in 
his  own  opinion,  contraiy  to  the  good  of  the 
Hospital? — I  do  not  know  what  captain 
Baillie  might  think  in  his  own  opinion ;  my 
opinion  was,  I  thought  so. 

Was  there  ever  any  offence  in  captain 
Baillie  that  the  c6urt  of  directors  could  take 
notice  of,  except  differing  in  opinion  from  you 
and  the  rest  of^the  gentiemen  there  ? — I  think 
there,  were  there  a  great  number  of  things 
occurred. 

.Among  the  great  number  of  things  try  to 
recollect  one  ? — I  do  not  particularly  recoUect 

So  then,  ^ou  think,  the  directors  intended 
to  take  notice  9f  captain  Baillie's  conduct; 
but  you  have  totally 'forgot  what  they  in- 
tended to  take  notice  of? — The  impropriety  of 
his  behaviour,  and  leading  us  a  very  disagree- 
able life  with  him  at  the  board,  I  thought . 
very  sufficient. 

Can  you  mention  any  instance  of  captain 
Baillie,  at  that  time,  having  done  any  thing 
that  was  contrary  to  nis  duty  as  lieutenant-go- 
vernor ?-^I  have  thought  so  j  I  cannot  parti* 
cularly  recollect,  at  this  time,  any  particular 
circumstances ;  I  don't  think  that  nis  beha- 
viour was  that  that  tended  to  the  good  of  the 
Hospital;  that  was  my  opinion. 

But  can  you  mention  any  instances  of  that 
behaviour,  such  as  deserved  to  be  taken  no- 
tice of  by  the  court  of  directors  ? — There  were 
complaints  came  before  the  board  of  direc- 
tors^ relative  to  captain  Baillie's  improper  be- 
haviour, which  I  approved  of. 

At  that  time  ? — ^X  don't  say  at  that  particular 
time. 

But  I  am  askine  you  to  the  montlvof  Ja- 
nuary, 1777.-- 1  don't  pretend  to  say  at  that 
time. 

Had  captain  Baillie  taken  any  steps  to 
create  disturbances  in  the  Hospital  ? — ^I  can- 
not directiy  answer  that  question;  he^had 
disturbed  me  very  much,  and  durturbed  a 
great  number  of  others. 

In  what  way  ?  Had  he  ever  been  dnmk 
in  the  Hospital? — ^Not  that  I  know  of.  I 
should  think  not. 

Was  he  ever  riotous  there  ? — Not  that  I 
know  of. 

Did  he  ever  beat  any  pensioner  ?— Not  that 
I  ever  knew  or  heard  of. 

Did  he  ever  beat  any  of  the  officers  ?— Not 
that  I  ever  heard  of. 

In  what  way.  did  he  disturb  you  ?— He  was 
a  very  unpleasant,  a  very  disagreeable,  and  ob- 
noxious man  to  me. 


HI]        retpeding  the  Royal  HospUi  at  Greetnoieh.        A.  D.  1778. 


[422 


But  I  want  to  know  one  instance  in  which 
he  has  ever  acted  contrary  to  the  eood  of 
the  Hospital,  or  attempted  iQ  make  a  disturb- 
aoce  ? — ^I  never  made  minutes  of  what  passed 
at  the  board ;  I  am  only  mentioning  that  he 
Is  a  very  disagreeable  person  to  act  with. 

Did  you  understana  any  other  notice  would 
be  taken  of  him?  You  say  vou  told  Mr.  Le- 
kvre  his  conduct  would  be  taken  notice  of? — 
I  said  I  should  not  wonder,  if  his  behaviour 
continued  in  that  way^  if  it  should  be  taken 
notice  of;  or  that  it  might  be  taken  notice 
of. 

And  did  you  mention  nothing  of  his  being 
taken  notice  of  by  lord  Sandwich  ? — ^Not  a 
vord.  How  was  it  possible  I  could  mention 
a  thing  of  that  kind  ?  The  book  was  not  pub- 
lished till  March,^  1778,  following ;  and  this 
was  a  charge  in  his  book. 

That  is  Sie  very  reason  why  I  supposed  the 
conversation  must  pass  before  the  book  was 
published. — There  vras  no  other  conversation 
than  I  mentioned ;  I  said,  I  thought  his  be- 
haviour very  improper ;  that  it  was  impossible 
to  act  with  him  at  the  board,  or  any  where 
ebe,  almost ;  and  I  should  not  wonder  if  it 
should  be  taken  notice  of. 

You  will  now  go  to  the  other  conversation, 
when  you  saw  Mr.  Lefevre  with  his  father. — 
Mr.  Lefevre  mentions  that  I  went  to  his  fa- 
ther's; I  did  not  go  to  his  father's  without 
being  asked  to  go;.  I  then  went  to  Mr.  Le- 
fevre's house ;  Tasked  Mr.  Lefevre  what  he 
lad  to  say  to  me;  he  b^ran  with  saying  he 
was  very  sorry  that  Mr.  Baillie  had  put  forth 
his  book ;  I  answered,  I  was  sorry  for  it  too ; 
he  said  he  was  under  some  fears  or  apprehen- 
sions that  it  would  be  thought  he  haa  taken  a 
part  with  captain  Baillie. 

Who  was  this;  the  father ?• — ^Yes.  My 
answer  was,  as  near  as  I  can  recollect,  I  won- 

*  Hue  dMlh  of  Mr.  Lefevre,  of  respectable  me- 
mory,  Ium  been  an  irreparable  lots  to  captain  Baillie. 
Orig.Ed. 

The  following  abstract  of  bis  affidaTlt  filed  on  be- 
kalf  of  captain  Bsillie  in  the  Court  of  King's-benck, 
ms  pnblislied  by  the  latter  in  his  *  Introdnotion/  6co. 

Absvract  of  the  Affidavit  of  William  LErsvRK, 
lieotenant  in  the  Hospital,  and  oldest  Lieate- 
aant  in  thd  Nary.  [Memorandum,  Dead  since 
the  oommencement  of  the  Prosecution.] 

He  atresia.  That  he  has  been  lieoteBant  in  the 
'  Hospital  12  years,  and  intimately  acquainted  with 
the  lieatenant-govemor  Baillie  30  years ;  that  duriag 
the  whole  time,  be  the  said  lieutenant-governor  haa 
eondncted  himself  with  the  strictest  honour  and  inte- 
grity, and  haa  always  shewn  himself  a  true  and  zealous 
fiiend  to  the  peDsioners,  and  a  most  vigilant  and 
ftithlbl  senrani  to  the  noble  establishment,  without 
view  or  interest  to  himselt 

He  swears,  that  in  April,  1771,  there  was  a  great 
dbtmrbiBoe  in  the  Hoepital,  on  aoooont  of  Mr.  Se- 
cretary Ibbetson  taking  down  several  cabins,  and 
Artviif  the  poor  men,  Uie  inhabitants,  out,  in  order. 
to  enlarfe  Us  apartments,  and  make  room  for  his 
footmen. 

Captain  BttlUs  thea  wamly  iatereited  lumielf  in 


del"  you  should  think  so.  Yes,  he  said,  he 
was  airaid  it  might  reach  lord  Sandwich.  I 
said,  I  wonder  y^i  should  think  any  thing  of 
that  kuid  >  lonr  Sandwich  is  not  of  a  turn  of 
mind  to  listen  to  idle  rej>orts  of  that  sort.  He 
said,  if  any  thine  should, be  said  of  that  kind, 
I  wish  jrou  would  express  that  I  have  no  con- 
cern in  it :  but  I  am  very  sorry  for  captain 
Baillie;  he  has  been  an  old  mess-mate  of 
mine.  I  mentioned  also,  at  the  same  con- 
versation, that  there  was  the  book  I  was  ac- 
cused in,  and  others ;  but,  I  said,  what  I  won- 
der at  is,  that  he  should  have  been  so  un- 
grateful to  lord  Sandwich,  as  to  have  brought 
him  so  much  in  question  in  that  book.  Mr, 
Lefevre  sud  he  also  was  very  much  concern- 
ed. I  said,  I  don't  wonder  at  your  concern 
for  captain  Baillie,  for  you  have  been  an  old 
and  long  acauaintance  of  his.  J  don't  re- 
member, at  that  meeting,  any  warmth  of  con- 
versation that  passed,  of  any  kind ;  I  remem- 
ber no  quarrel :  there  was  nobody  present  but 
Mr.  Lefevre,  the  father,  the  son,  and  myself; 
we  parted  in  good  humour ;  and  I  am  sure, 
when  I  went  from  that  house,  I  was  as  much 
inclined  to  do  any  act  of  service  for  young 
Mr.  Lefevre  as  I  ever  was  during  the  fouf  or 
five  years  I  was  acquainted  with  him  before. 

,1.      .1,    ...      •         I    ■ ■    ^1       —————— ^o 

behalf  of  the  pensioners,  aud  got  the  men  reilored 
to  their  cabins.  This,  he  swears,  drew  the  malice 
and  resentment  of  the  said  Ibbetson  against  the  lieu- 
tenant-governor Baillie. 

He  swears,  the  grand  passages  to  the  Royal  <3eorge 
ward  are  taken  in  by  the  civil  officers,  to  enlarge 
their  apartments,  contrary  to  the  interest  of  the  esta- 
blishment, and  to  the  injury  of  the  pensioners. 

He  swears,  that  in  September,  1772»  there  were 
universal  murmurings  amongst  the  mmi,  on  aoconnt 
of  the  short  allowance  of  meat  served ;  and  through 
the  activity  and  aeal  of  the  said  lieatenant-governor 
Baillie,  the  theft  was  discovered,  and  the  delinquent, 
by  the  means  of  the  said  Baillie,  was  brought  to  joa* 
tioe,  and  transported. 

He  swears,  that  in  year  1774,  the  said  Thomas 
Baillie  was  the  means  of  discovering,  that  the  kettles 
were  pillaged  of  large  quantities  of  broth,  which  the 
then  master  cook  had  oonlracted  to  deliver  to  a  hog 
&e<ler,  and  that  the  said  lieutenant-governor  B&illie  • 
was  the  chief  instrument  in  rectifying  that  neat 
abuse. 

He  swears  to  the  affiur  of  bull  beef  and  the  tfiels 
at  Guildhall  in  oonsequenoe ;  and  that  it  was  by  the 
vigour  and  activity  of  the  lieutenant'govemor,  who 
devoted  his  whole  time  to  it,  that  they  had  jnstioe,  no 
other  director  taking  the  least  trouble. 

^e  swears  to  frauds  in  the  brewhouse,  and  «  re- 
formation brought  about  by  the  iadefiitigpible  lieute- 
nant-governor Baillie. 

He  swears,  that  the  lieutenant-governor  Baillie, 
by  his  honest  and  upright  intention,  and  by  his  pro- 
teoting  the  establishment,  luw  drawn  on  himself  the 
malice  and  resentment  of  the  civil  interest,  and  that 
they  have  frequently  at  ceuueil,  when  he  has  been  ' 
presidifig  as  lientenantpgovernor,  treated  him  with  • 
undeserved  diirespect  and  insolts. 

That  the  said  lieutemmt-govemor  Baillie  has, 
during  hiji  the  deponent's  residenee,  always  treated 
the  officers  with  proper  respect|  and  the  men  with 
tendemest  and  humanity. 


issi 


18  GEORGE  in.  The  Can  ^Captain  Thomas  BgiBie,        [J^ 


Was  that  all  that  passed  at  that  time?--!^  | 
-^as ;  there  was  no  warmth  of  conversation^ 
that  I  recollect,  of  any  kind ;   we  parted  in 

food  humour,  and  as  a  demonstration  of  that, 
Ir.  Letevre  and  I  were  acquaintance  after- 
wards ;  he  and  his  family  dined  with  me  be- 
fore he  went  upon  the  service  he  was  ordered 
on  in  the  America. 

Did  you  ever  express  to  Mr  Lefevrc  your 
astonishment  that  he  should  continue  to  keep 
company  with  c^iptain  BailUe  ? — No,  I  never 
did  say  that  I  wondered  he  should  go  to  his 
house,  or  any  thing  of  the  kind ;  so  far  from 
it,  that  I  have  often  told  Mr.  Lefevrc,  that  I 
did  not  wonder  at  his  anxiety  for  captain  Bail- 
lie,  because  they  had  been  old  mess-mates ; 
as  to  young  Mr.  Lefevre,  he  had  nothing  jko  do 
in, the  Hospital;  he  did  not  belong  to  it,  and 
that  impression  Z  am  sure  I  have,  I  never 
went  to  his  house,  or  ever  mentioned  any  ex- 
pressions of  iutiraidatlon  at  any  time ;  I  was 
always  expressive  of  regard  to  Mr.  Lefevre, 
and  I  never  was  so  much  astonished  in  my 
life,  as  when  he  came  here  to  give  evidence 
against  me ;  /or  if  ever  any  one  private  gen- 
tleman was  obliged  to  another  in  his  li&,  I 
will  venture  to  say  he  is  obliged  to  me. 

'  Were  you  present  at  the  Admiralty,  at  the 
conversation  between  the  first  lord  of  the  Ad- 
miralty, Mr.  Murphy,  and  Mr.  Butler,  with 
regard  to  the  accommodation  of  the  dispute 
with  captain  Baillie  ? — I  was  there,  but  it  was 
verv  accidentally ;  I  was  at  the  first  meeting 
with  my  lord  Sandwich,  Mr.  Murphy  and  Mr. 
]$utler,  respecting  the  negociation,  but  very 
accidentally  so;  I  happened  to  be  at  lord 
Sandwich's,  and  Mr.  Butler,  I  think  it  was, 
asked  me,  whether  I  would  not  go  up  and 
bear  what  passed. 

What  injunctions  were  laid  upon  you  at 
thjit  time,  with  regard  to  secrecy  ? — T  do  not 
retaember  any  injunction  whatever  laid  upon 
me  for  secrecy;  but  I  looked  upon  it  a  busi- 
ness of  that  nature,  that  I  thought  it  would  be 
^rong  for  me  to  divulge  any  tiling  I  heard 
skid  in  that  room. 

'  How  long  after  the  first  hearing  of  that  in- 
junction  did  you  think  it  incumbent  upon  you 
to  keep  the  secret? — I  do  not  remember  that 
I  ever  opened  mjr  lips  about  it,  till  I  heard 
f«om  captain  Bailhe's  publication,  that  he  had  , 
mentioned  it  in  the  introduction  to  his  afii-  I 
davits ;  the  first  thing  that  I  saw  of  it,  >vas  in 
an  extract  from  the  Morning  Intelligencer,  or 
Daily  Advertiser.  j 

When  was  th^t?—!  believe  that  publication  i 
was,  when  your  lordships  haA  began  upon 
business. 

•'Was  that  the  first  you  ever  heard  of  that 
njegociation  having  been  divulged  ? — It  was ; 
I;  don't  know  that  I  could  from  any  converse- 
tipa  I  had  any  where,  drop  a  hint  of  any  such 
UAdertaking,  but  I  was  no  party  concerned  in 
it,  nor  did  I  look  upon  myself  as  such. 

I  did  not  ask  you  whether  you  had  yourself 
dhrulged  it,  but  whether  you  had  ever  heard  it 
tile  subject  of  conversation!  before  you  saw 


that  book ;  was  it  ever  mentioned  to  you  by 
any  body  else,  so  as  to  convince  you  that  it 
had  been  divulged  ? — I  don't  recollect  that  I 
had  ever  heard  it  any  where. ' 

Then  for  any  thing  you  know,  it  was  a  pro- 
found secret,  till  by  captain  Baillie's  means  it 
appeared  in  print  ?  —  I  remember  captain  Bail- 
lie  has  saia  at  this  bar,  that  it  was  circukte() 
about  the  Hospital,  or  something  of  that  kind, 
but  it  never  came  frota  my  lips ;  though  not 
enjoined  to  secrecy,  I  kept  myself  very  guard- 
ed about  it. 

It  never  came  to  your  knowledge  that  it 
had  been  circulated  ? — No. 

Did  you  ever  know  that  it  had  got  out  any 
way  to  any  person  that  was  not  present  at  the 
negociation  r — No. 

bid  any  person  not  present  at  that  negocia- 
tion, ever  mention  it  in  your  hearing  .>— No. 

I  think  you  have  said,  you  thought  captain 
Baillie  very  troublesome,  1  beg"  you  to  name 
any  instances  wherein  you  think  captain  Bail-j 
lie  was  very  troublesome,  or  that  he  acted 
against  the  true  interest  of  (Greenwich  Hos- 
pital, in  regard  to  the  pensioners? — I  don't 
think  he  has  been  a  friend  to  the  pensioners 
altogether. 

VVas  it  not  being  a  firiend  to  the  pensioners, 
the  detecting  the  butcher  that  served  them 
with  bull  beef,  and  getting  the  butcher's  man 
transported  ? — I  don*t  think  that  captain  Bail- 
lie  should  have  the  credit  of  that  altogether ; 
I  look  upon  that  as  an  act  of  the  board  of 
directors. 

Who  carried  on  that  prosecution  against 
him  ?— The  board  of  directors. 

Solely  ? — As  I  understand  solely,  to  the 
board  of  directors. 

I  should  be  sorry  to  remind  h  clergyman 
that  he  i$  upon  his  oath ;  you  think  that  was 
owing  to  Uie  boardf,  and  not  to  captain  Baillie  ? 
— ^The  governor  brought  it  to  the  board,  and 
the  board  took  it  up. 

Who  constituted,  and  how  qualified  arc  that 
board  of  directors,  to  s^it  as  a  board  ? — llift 
Secretary  can  much  better  answer  that  than  I 
can ;  I  have  authority  from  the  board  of  Adi 
miraltv  to  sit  there,  and  that  is  all  that  I  know, 
and  I  believe  I  am  legally  appointed. 

Has  not  captain  Baillie  merit  in  detecting 
the  butcher's  serving  bull  beef  tp  the  H(»- 
pital?— I  think  capUin  Baillie  had  merit  in 
that,  but  I  don't  think  he  should  take  the 
merit  of  that  altogether ;  there  were  other 
officers  in  the  house  that  would  have  done 
that. 

And  capUin  Baillie  did  not  carry  on  tha^ 
prosecution  ? — He  did  not  ^ 

How  long  have  yon  beea  a  ch^pl^n  \a.  tha 
HoapiUl  ?— J  have  been  appointed  X  thuik  sa 
years  next  November,  and  have  becaa  resideal 
almost  Uie  whdle  time. 

Whom  did  you  succeed?— The  reveien* 
Mr.  Tindal.  . 

Wis  it  upon  his  death  th^t  you  succeede* 
him  ?— No ;  upon  his  resigniLtian. 

Mfhether.  you.  pai^  wy  tbipjj  fojf  yoiilr  ad- 


^5}         rapecting  the  Ro^  Hotpital  at  Greemwidt.        A.  D.  1778. 


[499 


mission  to  that  place;  |dr.  Cooke  will  answer  | 
t^t  or  not,  just  as  he  pleases  ? — I  beg  I  may 
answer  that  question  ;  I  certainly  did  not  pay 
a  single  farthing,  but  did  the  duty  there  for  a 
year  and  three  quarters,  witliout  »  single 
shilling. 

Was  any  compensation  of  any  sort  made  to 
Mr.  TmdaJ,  in  resigning  his  chaplainship-?— 
No  compensation  whatever ;  nut  a  single  six- 
pence. 

'  Was  any  compensation  made  to  Mr.  Tin- 
dal's  widow  ? — Not  a  single  six-pence. 

Did  you  pay  any  thinfi;  for^eing  appointed 
a  director?— I  did;  I  do  not  come  here  to 
ipserve  any  thing  at  all  ^  Mr.  Tiudal  had  pro- 
mised to  resign  the  directorship  to  me,  witli- 
out any  sort  of  terms  at  all.  He  held  from  it 
very  much,  and  afterwards  he  mentioned  to 
me,  that  he  cou)d  not  really  give  up  Uve  di- 
rectorship without  some  trifling  consioeration; 
r  was  much  hurt  at  this,  particularly  as  com- 
iix>m  him ;  I  Imd  no  idea  of  it  mvself  at 
he  had  promised  me  again  and  again, 

t  he  would  resign  the  directorship,  aikl  I 

[  give  him  a  small  douceur  for  that. 

What  was  that  douceur  ? — fifty  pounds. 
:  Had  Mr.  Tindal  done  the  duty  of  the  Hos- 
]ntai  for  some  time,  previous  to  his  resigna- 
tion? -No. 

Who  did  the  duty  for  him  ? — ^The  reverend 
Mr.  Brumhead  did  t\)c  duty  for  him ;  it  had 
been  dune  by  deputy,  I  understand,  for  some 
years. 

Do  you  know  on  what  part  the  negociation 
idnse  tor  your  succeeding  Air.  Tindal,  and  for 
Mr.  Tindal's  resignation? — [t  proceeded  from 
a  friend  of  mine  in  Huntingdonshire ;  I  un- 
derstood there  were  two  old  lives  in  Green- 
wich Hospital ;  I  desired  a  friend  to  write  up 
to  know  whether  they  had  any  intention  of 
resigning;  the  answer  was,  they  had,  that 
Mr.  f  mdal  was  very  old,  that  he  had  offered 
terms  to  a  great  many,  but  they  had  not 
agreed. 

Did  this  friend  negociate  this  iratter  with 
Mr.  Tindal  by  letter,  pr  by  word  of  mouth } — 
There  was  a  letter  or  two  passed  between 
them,  and  then  I  came  up  and  negociated 
with  Mr.  Tindal  himself,  and  the  terms  were 
as  I  said  before;  there  was  nothing  passed 
Between  us  of  any  kind,  but  he  wag  to  have 
the  income  for  his  life ;  he  lived  about  a  year 
ttid  three  quarters,  and  I  did  the  whole  duty 
for  nothing  ;  he  lived  from  Noiwmber,  1772, 
I  believe,  till  June,  1774. 

Who  received  the  pay  of  chaplain  of  the 
Hospital  during  that  time  ? — I  beheve  }  re- 
ceived it,  but  I  accounted  to  him  for  it ;  I  do 
not  exactly  recollect  whether  I  received  it  or 
not,  but  I  think  I  did ;  however,  I  conceive  it 
veiy  immaterial  whether  I  did  or  not. 

Was  there  any  agreement  made  between 
you  and  Mr.  Tindal^  that,  upon  his  resigna- 
tion, you  were  to  give  him  the  pay  for  life  ? — 
Xiixax  his  resignation  I  had  agreed  to  give  him 
4u  the  orofits  of  the  chaplainship. 
.  For  the  remaindejc  of  tu4  life? — Yes^  dur« 
iBg  his  natural  life. 


And  which  yoii  did  pay  liim? — Yes. 

I  think  you  said,  you  succeeded  Mr.  Bnm- 
head? — He  oihciated  when  I  £siQe  into  the 
Hospital. 

Was  Mr.  Brumliead  a  curate  to  Mr.  Tindal  ? 
— He  was. 

Had  the  otlier  chaplain  another  curate  ?-*v 
No. 

Then  Mr.  Brumhead  did  the  duty  for  both 
the  chaplains? — Yes ;  and  did  the  whole  duty 
of  the  Hospital  for  40/.  a  year,  1  beUeve,  and 
a  chaldron  of  cuals,  I  think. 

Whetiicr  you  have  ever  read,  or  understood, 
the  original  charter  of  Greenwich  Hospital  ?— ^ 
The  original  commission. 

No ;  the  charter^  as  gr4nted  by  king  George 
the  1st,  upon  tlie  torleiture  of  the  Derwent- 
water  estate? — There  was  no  charter,  o^y  a 
commission. 

Whether  you  have  ever  read  the  original 
commission,  upon  the  forfeiture  of  the  Der- 
wentwdter  estdte  to  Greenwich  hospital  ? — ^I 
have  seen  the  original  comniis&ioff»  but  I 
never  saw  a  word  u?  the  Derwentwater  estate 
in  It. 

What  does  the  original  commission  say  ?-* 
I  cannot  recollect  at  present. 

What  are  the  directions  as  to  th^  qualifica- 
tion of  the  chaplains  of  Greenwich  Hospital  f 
— I  dunH  recollect  that  there  is  any  thing  in  it 
relative  to  the  chaplains. 

So  a  man  who  has  never  been  at  sea  is 
equally  qualified  fur  it  ? — I  have  seen  the  ori- 
ginal act  of  parliament,  which  is  founded 
upon  the  charter,  which  says,  a  chaplain  of 
necessity  need  not  be  a  seafaring  n^an ;  I 
do  not  remember  any  thuig  in  the  original 
charter  or  cummissiun,  that  mentions  any 
thing  about  tlie  chaplains  of  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital. 

Then  do  you  come  under  that  description, 
of  a  chaplain  of  necessity  ? — I  don't  know ;  it 
was  necessary  sumebo4y  should  do  the  duty 
of  Greenwich  Hospital. 

Have  you  ever  been  at  sea  ? — I  never  was 
at  sea  in  my  life, 

Then  do  you  or  not  apprehend,  that  you 
come  under  that  description,  of  n  chaplain  of 
necessity  ? — All  that  I  know  is,  tltat  1  was  ap* 
pointed  a  chaplain  to  Greenwich  Hospital  by 
the  board  of  Admiralty. 

You  me|)tioned  you  had  gpveo  50/.  ibr  the 
resignation  of  the  i4ace  ot  director;  what 
may  the  place  of  a  director  be  worth  ? — ^That 
is  according  to  the  attendances;  a  person  is 
paid  for  every  actual  attendance.  ^ 

What  is  psMd  for  an  attendance  l-^t^  shd- 
Hipi^,  I  believe. 

How  many  attendance  may  theps  be  in  a 
^ear? — About  once  in  ten  days;  it  i^  op« 
tional  whether  they  choose  to  attend  or  not 

Whether  there  is  any  other  emolument 
whatever,  arising  tP  a  airectpr»  besides  the 
ten  shillings  for  each  attendance  ?-rr^ione  that 
I  know  of. 

What  is  deemed  an  attendance  ?  And  yrh^l 
is  the  nature  of  ^  bMsioes^l  How  xWKi 


427]  18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  o/Capiain  Jtonuu  BailUe,         [4S9 


hours  does  it  require  you  to  be  from  home  ? — 
There  are  two,  alternately,  one  at  Greenwich 
Hospital,  the  other  at  Saiters'  Hall,  in  Lon- 
don ;  the  time  wc  stay  there  depends  much 
upon  the  business;  sometimes  an  hour  and  a 
half;  two,  three,  nay,  sometimes,  upon  extra- 
ordinary  business,  iour  hours ;  but  generally 
two,  or  two  hours  and  a  half. 

Then  let  a  person  live  where  he  will,  he 
must  have  the  whole  distance  to  go  to  the 
other  meeting  ? — He  is  not  obliged  to  go  at  all. 

But  to  make  it  to  advantage  r — ^Yes. 

Then  if  he  attends  every  time,  he  may 
make  a  shilling  a  day  of  it;  ten  shillings 
every  ten  days? — Monev  is  not  the  object,  I 
believe,  with  any  of  the  gentlemen ;  I  am 
sure  it  was  not  with  me ;  but  for  the  public 
good  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  that  the  attend- 
ances are  so  good  as  they  are. 

More  pubhc  spirit  ? — ^I  believe  so. 

I  thinK  you  said,  that  the  transaction  with 
Mr.  Tindal,  was  settled  at  last  with  him  by 
yourself;  was  there  any  writing  passed  upon 
that  occasion  ? — There  was. 

Who  drew  up  that  writing  ? — ^An  agent  of 
mine,  an  attorney. 

What  is  his  name? — Mr.  Astlev. 

Were  there  any  witnesses  to  the  execution 
of  it  ? — I  beUeve  there  were ;  it  was  regiflarly 
executed. 

Who  were  they? — ^I  do  not  at  this  distance 
of  time  recollect. 

What  was  done,  in  consequence,  in  order  to 
eet  Mr.  Tlndal's  resignation  accepted  ? — I  be- 
ueve  Mr.  Tindal  wrote  to  the  board  of  Admi- 
ralty, to  resign,  and  his  resignation  was  ac- 
cepted, and  I  was  appointed;  I  know  no 
other  form ;  the  form  that  was  usual. 

Did  you  make  application  to  lord  Sandwich 
to  be  appointed  in  his  room  ? — I  made  appli- 
cation to  lord  Sandwich  to  be  appointed  in  nis 
room. 

Was  lord  Sandwich  made  acquainted  with 
that  transaction  between  you  and  Mr.  Tindal  ? 
^-His  lordship,  I  am  sure,  knew  nothing  of 
the  transaction  before  it  was  finished  and 
done  with. 

Did  not  lord  Sandwich  ask  you,  whether 
you  had  asreed  or  setUed  any  thinz  with  Mr. 
Tindal  ?— I  do  not  recollect  he  did ;  I  recol- 
lect his  lordship  had  nothing  to  do  with  the 
transaction  between  Mr.  Tindal  and  me, 
about  that  business,  nor  did  he  know  the  par- 
ticulars of  it ;  I  was  appointed  in  Mr.  Tin- 
dal's  room,  when  he  wrote  for  leave  of  resig- 
nation. 

Did  not  lord  Sandwich  ask  you,  what  were 
Mr.  Tindal's  motives  for  asking  to  resign  ? 
-—I  really  think  he  did  not ;  but  you  are  ask- 
ing me  to  a  thing  that  happened  seven  years 
ago. 

But  can  you  take  upon  you  to  say,  that 
lord  Sandwich  did  not  ask  you,  what  reason 
Mr.  Tindal  had  for  resiemng  ?^No ;  I  do 
not  recollect  that  be  asked  me  any  such  ques- 
tion. 
Do  you  take  upon  you  to  say/that  lord 


Sandwich  was  not  acquainted  with  there  be- 
ing some  compensation  made  to  Mr.  Tindal? 
-^here  was  no  compensation  made  to  Mr. 
Tindal. 

I  mean  the  agr^ment  to  pay  him  his  sa- 
lary during  life? — Lord  Sandwich,  I  believe, 
knew  that  Mr.  Tindal  and  I  were  negodating, 
but  did  not  know  the  particulars  of  our  agree- 
ment. 

How  did  lord  Sandwich  know  that? — ^I  ap- 
plied to  lord  Sandwich  to  know,  if  he  would 
appoint  me,  in  case  Mr.  Tindal  and  I  agreed; 
I  remember,  now  it  comes  to  my  recollection, 
that  lord  Sandwich  told  me,  that  there  were 
two  old  chaplains ;  his  lordship  was  so  kind 
to  say,  he  intended  to  do  something  for  me,  . 
he  told  me,  but  he  did  not  know  exactly  the 
place  or  time;  that  he  intended  giving  me 
one  6f  those,  if  they  dropt,  knowing  they 
were  old  lives ;  that  put  me  in  mind  of  en- 
deavouring to  get  at  It  by  resignation. 

To  endeavour  to  get  it  by  resignation? — * 
Not  eet  at  it  by  resignation ;  but  if  I  treated 
with  Mr.  Tindal  and  He  resigned,  that  I  should 
be  appointed. 

What  did  you  imagine  lord  Sandwich  un- 
derstood, by  your  treating  with  Mr.  Tindal? 
— I  did  not  know  what  he  understood  by  it 

Do  you  .think  lord  Sandwich  understood, 
that  vou  were  treating  with  Mr.  Tindal,  to 
^ve  him  some  compensation  ? — ^The  negocia- 
tion  between  us  was  not  under  the  sanction  of 
lord  Sandwich  at  all. 

I  am  asking  you,  whether  it  was  with  his 
privity  or  knowledge  ? — I  believe  I  might  have 
mentioned  it  to  him  at  the  time. 

Was  lord  Sandwich  made  acquainted  with 
your  giving  50/.  to  Mr.' Tindal,  to  resign  being 
a  director  ? — He  never  heard  of  it,  nor  ever 
knew  of  it ;  I  doWieve  the  first  information 
his  lordship  has  had  of  it,  has  been  from  me 
this  very  moment ;  I  am  sure  his  lordship 
never  heard  of  it  from  me. 

I  should  be  dad  to  know^  whether  your 
coadjutor,  the  oUier  chaplain  m  the  Hospital, 
hath  ever  been  at  sea;  whether  he  comes 
under  the  description  of  the  original  charter 
of  that  Hospital?  Is  Mr.  Maule  here?— He 
is. 

Whether  you  know  of  any  other  of  the  di- 
rectors who  have  given  compensation  for 
their  places  at  that  board  ? — I  know  of  none ; 
I  did  not  look  upon  that  as  a  compensation. 

Whether  a  douceur  or  a  present  is  usuiU, 
when  a  director  resigns? — s^o;  I  believe  it 
was  never  done  before. 

I  wish  to  understand  you  correctly;  I  un- 
derstand you  are  in  the  Hospital  in  two  capa- 
cities, as  a  chaplain  and  as  a  director ;  50/.  was 
given  as  a  douceur;  that  was  not  for  the 
chaplainship,  that  I  suppose  would  have  been 
simony,  it  was  for  the  directorship;  but 
there  was  also  an  agreement,  was  there  not, 
to  do  the  duty,  for  a  certain  period  of  time, 
without  any  salaiy  ?— I  told  the  House  before. 
I  took  it  upon  those  conditions ;  Mr.  Tindal 
was  to  have  the  profits  of  the  chaplainship 


4SS]        respecting  the  Itoj^al  HoqrHal  ai  Greentoich.         A.  D.  1778. 


[430 


during  his  life,  md  I  was  appointed  chaplain, 
and  I  did  the  duty. 

Without  any  part  of  the  salary  ? — ^Without 
any  part  of  the  salary  whatever  of  any  kind. 

Do  the  profits  of  the  dwplain  of  Greenwich 
Hospital  consist  of  any  thing  more  than  the 
salary?  Are  there  any  emoluments  helongins 
to  the  office  not  comprehended  in  the  sal^  r 
—There  are  no  emoluments  belonging  to  the 
cfaajplainship,  or  any  other  office  in  Green- 
wich Hospital,  of  any  kind,  but  the  salary. 

Then  am  I  to  understand  you  had  no  profit 
whatever  during  the  time  Mr.  Tindal  lived  f — 
Not  a  sixpence^ 

And  you  eave  50/.  to  Mr.  Tindal  for  the  re- 
signation of  the  directorship  ?— That  was  a 
year,  or  a  year  and  a  quarter  after. 

Vflience  does  the  pay  of  the  chaplidn  arise  ? 
—There  is  a  salary  of  lOOi.  a  year ;  he  hea 
table  money,  whicn  eveiy  other  officer  has ; 
which,  I  believe,  is  twenty  i)Ound  odd.  There 
are  stores,  the  same  ouantities  as  a  lieutenant 
has :  that  was  the  salary  of  the  chaplainship, 
with  apartments,  at  the  time  Mr.  Tindal  re- 
signed to  me. 

,  Has  not  the  chaplain  some  pay  from  the  or- 
dinaij  of  Greenwich  and  of  Woolwich? — ^No ; 
that  is  paid  into  the  Hospital. 

Has  there  been  any  ausmentation  made  to 
the  salary  since  you  biave  nad  it  ? — ^There  has 
been  an  augmentation  which  the  minutes  of 
the  general  court  will  shew,  and  shew  the 
reason  of  it;  that  was,  I  think,  in  March, 
1775. 

What  was  th^t  reason?— If  the  House  will 
be  so  kind,  as  to  call  for  the  minutes  of  the 
seneral  court,  Mr.  Ibbetson  is  here,  and  wUi 
mlly  explain  ^t. 

]^  what  do  you  understand  to  be  the 
meaning  of  it?— The  additional  30/.  a  year  is 
for  reading  prayers  at  the  infirmary,  which 
the  chaplains  had  never  done  before ;  and  we 
had  done  the  duty  at  the  infirmary  a  year,  be^ 
fore  this  addition  to  the  salsuy  was  made. 
Another  reason  was,  that  all  the  salaries  had 
been  raised  in  the  Hospital,  since  the  great 
augmentation  of  the  pensioners,  the  burials 
imist  of  course  increase;  the  captains  and 
Eeutenants  of  the  Hospital  were  raised  before 
our  addition  of  salary. 

What  was  the  saliuy  you  paid  Mr.  Tindal  ? 
—What  I  mentioned  at  first,  the  100/.  a  year, 
and  the  table  money. 

How  much  in  the  whole  ? — ^About  135/.  a 
year,  the  salary;  the  table  money  and  the 
slorea  are  allowed,  amount  to  about  135/.  a 
yean  at  the  outside,  I  believe ;  but  I  am  sure 
140/.  b  the  extent. 

That  was  what  was  before  the  augmenta- 
tion?—Yes. 

Are  there  any  profits  of  any  other  kind  ?— • 
None  that  I  know  of. 

*  "Re  revflrend  iqmi  enjoyed  a  f^ood  apartment  for 
ItuBtrff  and  &inily,  phjHeiany  surgeon,  and  apothe- 
cary gratis,  beer  witlioot  excise,  and  asses  milk  for 
bia  oldldrea ;  and  all  widck  he  does  nat  eiluiate  at 
iu^eace,  opoa  las  oath.— >C>r^.  Ed* 


Has  not  the  lieutenant  eovemor's  salary 
been  raised  likewise? — ^The  fieutenant  gover- 
nor's salary  was  raised  100/.  a  year  more,  in 
captam  Baillie's  predecessor's  time. 

Whether  you  ever  knew  of  any  instance,  of 
the  first  chaplain  of  Greenwich  Hospital  not 
being  a  person  qualified  under  the  cnarter  of 
the  Hospital  as  a  seaman  ? — Yes ;  Mr.  Stubbs, 
the  first  chaplain,  never  was  at  sea  in  his  life, 
and  he  was  chaplain  of  Greenwich  Hospital 
35  years ;  he  never  was  at  sea  in  his  life,  or 
was  what  they  call  a  naval  chaplain.  •  ' 

Did  you  ever  know  of  a  siewaid  who  was  a 
landman,  before  the  present  steward? — I 
have  understood,  that  the  first  steward  that 
was  appointed  to  Greenwich  Hospital,  had 
never  been  at  sea;  I  have  understood,  that 
Mr.  Bell  had  not  been  at  sea,  when  he  was 
appointed  to  Greenwich  Hospital,  but  that  h^ 
afterwards  went  to  sea.  Itis  not  clear  that 
he  had  been  at  sea,  when  he  was  app<»nted 
ste^vard  to  Greenwich  Hospital. 

Did  you  ever  hear  how  long  a  time  he  was 
secretary  to  admiral  sir  John  Norris  ? — No ; 
he  made  appUcation  to  the  board,  I  believe, 
for  permission  to  go  with  admiral  Norris. 

Can  you  prove  he  was  not  a  regular  quali- 
fied person,  oefore  he  was  chosen  steward  to 
Greenwich  Hospital  ?— I  should  think,  firom 
the  service  he  had  done  to  the  Hospital,  that 
he  was  a  vety  proper  man  for  the  office.  I 
have  never  heard  any  thing  of  Mr.  Bell  but 
by  hearsay;  I  did  not  know  him. 

You  have  heard  he  has  been  of  infinite  be- 
nefit to  the  Hospital  ? — ^He  has  been  of  infinite 
benefit  to  the  Hospital. 

Did  you  say  he  had  not  been  at  sea  before 
he  was  appointed? — ^I  have  understood  he  had 
not. 

Did  you  ever  hear  in  the  Hospital  the  year 
that  Mr.  Bell  was  appointed  steward  to  Green- 
wich Hospital  ?— I  have  heard,  but  I  cannot 
now  recollect. 

Is  it  as  lone  back  as  1736? — ^In  1735,  or 
1736, 1  think  I  have  heard  he  was  appointed. 
[Reverend  Mr.  Cooke  withdrew.] 

Captain  Chads  called  in,  one  of  Lord  Sand- 
wich's witnesses. 

Whether  you  are  one  of  the  council  ? — 
I  am. 

How  long  have  you  been  so  ?-^I  have  be- 
longed to  the  Hospital  above  three  years. 

By  whom  were  you  appointed? — By  the 
present  board  of  Admiralty,  i 

How  many  military  officers  are  there  ?— • 
Fourteen. 

How  many  civil  ?— Six ;  but  three  of  them 
never  attend  the  council;  the  auditor  never 
appeared  at  council  yet;  the  secretary,  hia 
business  leads  him  another  way;  and  the 
physician  always  has  business  m  the  infir- 
mary; that  I,  believe  is  the  occasion  he  can- 
not attend  the  council.* 

*  If  captain  Chads  knows  anj  thing  about  the  iu'^ 
firmary,  he  must  know  that  the  pbysician  seldom  or 
nerer  visit  ^  his  paUenls  oftener  than  once  in  eight 
I  da^s,  and  that  not  of  a  council  daj.*-Orig.  £d. 


481]. 


18  GBORGS  m.  The  Ca$e  of  Caption  Thomas  BaiUiei         [439^ 


D^  thej  never  attend? — ^I  haKre  seen  the 
secretary  and  physician  there  about  three 
times  each ;  the  auditor  I  never  saw  there. 

Do  the  military  attend  their  duty  ?— I  think 
they  do. 

Are  there  generally  more  military  than 
civil  officers  attending  the  council  ?~--Some- 
times  treble,  generally  double  the  number. 

Do  you  observe  that  the  civil  officers  gene- 
rally side  together } — No,  I  never  saw  it» 

Do  you  observe  that  they  form  any  thing 
like  a  faction ?— Quite  ihe  reverse;  I  have 
seen  t^e  military  have  done  it,  but  never  the 
civil. 

Do  you  know  ol*  an^  attempts  there  to  se- 
dMfe  a  minority  ?— Never,  no  attempts  to  se- 
cure a  mafority ;  only  when'  captain  Baiilie*s 
book  firsrt  came  forth  mto  the' Hospital,  parties 
appeared  there'  like  mushrooms^  who  never 
a|>peaied  theiie  beibre. 

But  is  there  such'  a  majerity  ?— Not  that  f 
know. 

]^  vovknow  any  contplainfli  quashed  im- 
properly.^— Not  ipiy. 

Do  you  know  of  any  i^dress  being  refused  ? 
— ^None  at  all. 

Do  you  know  of  any  undue  influence  or 
ntianagement  of  council  ? — ^No,  far  from  it. 

Or  any  cajoling  by  the  civil  people  ? — No ; 
any  man  that  would  speak  with  me  to  that 
purpose,  I  should  despise  him. 

rou  have  talked  with  the  pensioners  there 
oilen  ? — I  have,  a  vast  number  of  old  seamen 
that  have  sailed  with  me  in  the  course  of  20 
years,  that  oflen  have  talked  with  mc. 

Have  you  ever  been  absent  from  the  Hospi- 
tal ?-«Never  more  than  six  weeks. 
^  If  there  had  been  any  grievance  in  the  Hos- 
pital, must  not  you  have  known  it? — ^Yes; 
and  I  niever  heard  a  word  of  it  till  captain 
Baillie's  book  came  forth.   ' 

Haa  the  government  of  the  Hospital  been 
well  regulated  in  yourjudgment?— It  has. 

Are  the  pensioners  satisfied  with  the  go- 
vernment of  the  Hospital  ? — I  have  seen  man}' 
of  my  old  shipmates ;  I  have  said,  my  lads, 
how  do  you  like  being  here  ?  Sir,  I  am  ex- 
tremely happy  here ;  I  want  for  nothing ;  I 
have  every  thing  I  can  wish  for ;  and  if  I  am 
not  happy,  it  is  ray  own  fault. 

Has  captain  Baillie's  conduct  at  the  coun- 
dl  been  proper  and  temperate?* — I  think 
not. 

Has  his  conduct  in  the  Hospital  been  in 
your^  opinion  such,  as  tended  to  make  tlie 
pennoners  happy? — I  think  otherwise  since 
the  publication  of  that  book;  I  thought  every 
pensioner  seemed'  to  be  inflamed,  which  ( 
never  thought  before ;  and  it  made  a  division 
among  the  officers  immediately. 

Then  you  do  not  think  it  hsis  tended  to  pro- 
duce peace?— No,  I  think  it  has  tended  to 
phxluce  the  contrary. 

*  The  oooneil  in  beld  once  %  week  at  leait ;  and 
(Mptain  Cluula,  daring  the  last  whole  year,  haa  bees 
bat  thifletB  tiaet  at  tim  comtiai,^Ori^.  Edx 


Have  ^ve  members  of  the  council  been  suf- 
ficiently active  in  their  duty? — I  think  so. 

Has  the  manner  in  which  captain  BaiHie 
nroceeded  been  of  a  nature  to  conciliate  oc  iiH 
flame  the  minds  of  the  parties  concerned? — 
la  conncil,  when  we  hove  met,  and  debated 
upon  matters,  if  we  did  not  coincide  in  opi- 
nion with  captaih  Baillie,  he  was  warm ;  and 
I  ahrays,  from  circumstances  which  appeared 
before  me,  gave  my  judgment  and  opinion  \a 
the  best  of  my  understanding;  I  never  mind- 
ed any  body. 

Do  you  know  of  any  impropriety  in  thd 
conduct  of  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  ? — None  at  all ; 
I  look  upon  him  to  be  a  gentleman ;  he  is  a 
good  husband  and  an  inoftlgent  father;  M 
visit  one  another ;  I  nevet*  saw  any  ^ing  xm* 
.  becoming  the  chai^tcter  <^a  gentlextian. 

Did  you  ever  see  Mr.  Cooke  behave  impro^ 
I  per  to  nie  lieutenant-governor  at  the  council  f 
^  — ^Never  in  my  life. 

•'     Dt>  ydii  know' that  Mr.  Cooke  has  ever  at^ 
'  tempted  tfe>  use  any  iii)  proper  influence  over 
the  council  af  d  membei^  ? — Not  in  the  leasC 
Any  man  that  would  offer   to  influence,  1 
should'  despise  him ;   I  would  never  speak  to 
him;   I  have  sat  at  courts-martial  upon  lif<^ 
and  death ;   I  should  be  sorry  to  be  thought 
an  influenced  man ;  captain  Baillie  has  b^n 
very  severe  against  me ;   he  calls  us  a  mocli 
council,  and  all  legal  government  is  at  an  end ; 
as  an  officer  and.  a  gentleman  I  could  not 
brook  it;  I  memorialled  the  Ivrds  of  the  Ad- 
miralty  for    redress;    and    disavowed    the 
charge ;  captain  AUwright,  lieutenant  Lefc^re, 
and  one  or  two  more,  th^r  did  not  sign  the 
memorial ;  therefore  it  appeared  to  me  they 
avowed  the  charge ;   therefore  I  looked  upon 
them  gentlemen  to  be  a  party ;    for  in  a  con- 
versation one  day  with  captain  AUwright,  I 
asked  him,  if  he  had  ever  seen  the  book;   I 
told  him,  captain  Baillie  had  thrown  a  gr^t 
stigma,  and  it  was  a  thing  I  could  never  brook; 
he  said  upon  his  honour  he  never  saw  it;  I 
asked  him,  if  he  had  seen  it  ip  manuscript: 
he  said  he  had  heard  it  read ;   that  convincea 
me  he  was  consulted  in  the  book. 

Upon  the  oath  you  have  taken,  as  a  mem- 
ber of  Greenwich  Hospital,  do  you  think  tfiat 
captain  Baillie's  removal  would  contribute  t6 
the  good  government  of  the  Hospital,  and 
peace  and  welfare  of  the  pensioners? — I 
am  thoroughly  convinced  Greenwich  Hospi* 
tal  will  never  be  in  harmony  till  he  is  remov- 
ed ;  it  is  now  in  hot  water,  ahd  will  be  so 
as  long  as  he  remahis,  if  he  is  not  removed ; 
for  he  IS  now  in  >  his  apartments  ;  and  he  is 
always  tampering  with  the  pensioners,  and 
has  mfluenccd  tHeir  minds,  which  will  never 
be  eradicated  for  a  number  of  years. 

Cross-Examination. 

Why  did  you  sign  the  memorial  against  the 
lieutenant-governor  ?— Because  he  accut»ed  me 
falsely-,  by  calling  me  a  man  that  had  secured 
a  majority ;  an  illegal  council.  I  look  upon 
the  council  to  be  the  internal  govenunexxt  of 
§ 


43^         tnfeding  ike  Ro^l  Hospital  at  Oreemoich,        A.  D.  177S. 


[434 


liMt  Hofipital ;  «nd  therefore  I,  as  a  member 
of  the  same,  would  do  the  same,  if  the  tike 
case  was  to  happen. 

Whether  there  is  anv  chib  of  officers  held 
ift  Greenwich  Hospital  r-~Certainly  there  is. 

Where  is  that  held  ? — In  the  council  room. 

Was  it  hdd  there  the  night  preceding  the 
fire } — ^I  l^ept  my  bed;  I  was  m  the  gout  at 
that  time;  I  cannot  say  to  that  particular 
time ;  but  it  is  a  very  indiiferent  club  for  offi- 
cers ;  it  is  only  a  sixpenny  club. 

Did  lieutenant  Kerr  eomplain  to  you,  as 
captaia  of  the  week,  that  there  was  a  scene 
of  drunkenness  and  riot  in  the  tailors'  shop,  a 
trttk  before  the  fire  ? — I  do  not  recollect ;  if 
he  did,  I  was  not  capable ;  I  was  in  bed,  in 
tbke  gout;  and  the  day  the  fire  happened  was 
the  first  day  I  got  out ;  I  ^t  a  mat  pair  of 
ckdi  shoes  on ;  1  had  been  ill  of  tne  gout  two 
or  thrte  months ;  I  do  not  recollect  that ;  he 
possibly  jnight ;  he  used  to  come  in  and  tell 
me  news,  and  have  anv  little  chit-chat ;  as  I 
fcqyt  my  apartments,  likelv  he  might. 

Do  yoa  recollect  whether  he  did,  or  not, 
send  you  a  boatswain  to  infi>nn  you  of  it } — I 
do  not  recollect  it ;  I  ask  pardon,  I  do  now  re- 
collect he  did  send  a  boatswain  to  let  me 
taioW  there  was  some  riot;  I  sent  for  the 
boatswain  of  the  guard ;  I  ordered  him  to  go 
up  there,  and  see  the  people  were  dispersed ; 
toe  doors  were  shut ;  that  was  all  I  knew ;  I 
ordered  him  to  carry  directly  any  that  were 
there  and  put  them  into  the  east-gate,  which 
is  the  prison. 

Then,  by  your  account,  you  did  not  go  your- 
adf? — ^I  observed  I  was  ill  of  the  gout;  I 
flould  hardly  walk. 

Did  you  send  lieutenant  Kerr  to  quell  that 
disturbance ? — ^I  believe  not;  because  he  sent 
ttie  boatswain  to  me ;  but  I  perfectly  recollect 
I  sent  for  the  boatswain  of  the  guard,  and 
told  him  what  lieutenant  Kerr  had  said  to 
me;  he  returned,  and  sud  the  door  was 
shut,  and  every  thing  was  peaceable  and 
^inet. 

Under  whose  care  was  that  ward  where  the 
&fearbance  happened  ? — ^I  look  uDon  it  it  was 
dose  to  the  tailors'  apartment ;  I  look  upon  it 
to  be  in  lieutenant  Kerr's  department. 

The  tailors'  shop? — Those  apartments  are 
shut  up  every  nijght,  and  under  the  care  of  the 
Boaster  tailor  himself,  because  he  had  the 
clothes,  and  all  those  things  there;  I  believe 
nobody  paid  any  attention  at  all  to  the  tailors' 
ahei^  (that  is,  to  take  care  of  it)  but  the  mas- 
ter tauor  himself,  whom  I  understand  used  to 
tbck  it  up,  as  he  had  a  great  charee  of  things 
there.  But  the  riot^  I  understand,  was  in  the 
shop;  the  boatswam  said  they  were  all  dis- 
persed ;  had  there  been  any  body  there  they 
would  have  been  brought  before  me. 
'  Is  the  tailors'  shop  under  the  management 
of  the  officers  of  the  Hospital,  or  not? — I 
never  heard  Chat  talked  about ;  nor  did  I  ever 
hear  any  oemphunt  about  the  tailors'  shop,  till 
lieutenant  Kerr  came  and  told  me  they  were 
dhttds  ia-tke  teaors*  shop.    The  tailor  used  to 

VOL  XXL 


take  care  of  that  particularly,  because  he  had 
a  charge  there. 

Are  they  under  the  steward's  care  h— I  do 
riot  know  that. 

Are  they  under  the  care  of  the  military  ?— I 
betieve  the  whole  Hospital  is  under  the  care 
of  the  military,  in  general ;  but,  I  believe,  no- 
body ever  visited  that  place  of  a  nijght:  the 
patrole  visit  every  part'of  the  Hospital;  but 
could  not  visit  that,  because  that  was  locked 
up  every  night. 

Do  you  take  upon  you  to  say,  of  your  own 
knowledge,  whether  that  was  locked  up  every 
night  ?--No,  I  will  not  say  that. 

Did  you  never  hear  that  any  body  worked 
there  by  candle-light  ? — I  never  did. 

As  a  miUtary  man,  did  you  ever  visit  it? — ^I 
never  did. 

In  the  whole  course  of  the  time  that  you 
have  been  in  the  Hospital,  and  when  ^ou 
have  been  officer  of  the  week,  you  never  visit- 
ed it? — ^Yes,  when  it  is  my  tour  of  duty,  I  go 
into  the  Hospital  to  the  dining  room. 

B%t  never  visited  the  tailors*  shop? — ^No. 

Did  you  ever  send  any  body  to  visit  it? — I 
never  did ;  nor  ever  visited  it  myself. 

Are  there  any  sinecures  in  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital ? — ^Not  that  I  know. 

Does  the  barber  do  his  duty  ?>-The  barber  ! 
The  man  that  contracts  ? 

No.  The  barber  of  the  Hospital. — I  know 
his  name  is  Mackeness,  by  captain  Baillie's 
book ;  but  till  that  book  came  out,  I  did  not 
know  who  was  the  barber. 

Did  you  never  hear  of  it  otherwise  ? — ^Yes; 
I  have  heard  people '  say  Mackeness  was  the 
barber ;  and  that  he  liad  been  a  servant  of 
lord  Anson's. 

But  does  he  do  his  duty  ? — That  is  done  by 
the  deputy,  I  believe. 

Is  not  that  a  sinecure,  then,  as  you  think  f 
— I  think  so. 

Does  the  porter  attend  the  council?— I 
cannot  say  I  ever  saw  him ;  we  have  every 
boatswain  attends;  I  caimot  say  I  attend 
every  council;  I  never  saw  him  when  I  at- 
tenoed. 

Does  the  clerk  of  the  council  attend  his 
duty? — ^I  never  saw  him;  the  steward's  first 
clerk  does  that  duty;  and,  as  I  understand, 
the  clerk  of  the  council  never  did  any  duty 
there ;  it  was  always  a  clerk  firom  the  stewara, 
or  a  clerk  of  the  cheque,  that  did  the  business 
there  at  the  council. 

Am  I  to  understand  you  never  saw  the 
clerk  of  the  council  attend  his  duty  there  ? — I 
never  saw  him  in  my  life;  therefore  I  never 
saw  him  there. 

Does  Skeene,  the  butler's  mate,  attend  his 
duty  ?— £  know  he  is  an  assistant  with  the 
clerk  of  the  works ;  but  I  never  was  so  mi- 
nute as  to  enquire  about  the  butler's  business ; 
I  saw  every  thing  go  on  very  regular,  and 
never  had  any  complaints  came  to  me. 

But  did  you  ever  see  him  do  his  duly? — If 
you  will  please  to  acquaint  me  what  his  duty 


IS. 


H  F 


435] 


IS  GEORGE  III.         The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaiOie^        [436 


BuUer*s  mate. — I  do  not  know  what  that  is. 

And  you  are  an  officer  in  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital?— Yes. 

Do  you  know  there  is  such  an  office  ? — I 
have  heard  them  called  butler's  mate. 

But  do  not  know  what  that  business  is  ? — 
No. 

Do  not  you  know  what  the  sculleryman  s 
mate  is  ? — ^1  suppose  to  wash  the  dishes. 

Is  there  one  Hussel,  a  sculleryman's  mate? 
•— I  believe  there  is ;  but  I  never  attended 
there ;  I  have  a  deputy  that  attends  to  that 
business;  if  a  lieutenant  is  not  capable  of 
that,  he  is  capable  of  nothing ;  as  a  captain 
of  a  man  of  war,  we  trust  our  lieutenants. 

'  Do  you  know  one  Dickey,  the  turncock  ? — 
Yes ;  I  always  see  that  man  turning  the  water 
in  and  out,  always  doing  his  duty ;  a  verv 
cjvil  obliging  fellow ;  I  have  seen  him  in  all 
parts  of  the  Hospital  with  a  great  iron  thing 
under  his  arm. 

Is  a  disabled  seaman  capable  of  performing 
tile  office  of  cook  in  Greenwich  Hospital? — 
No ;  not  at  all.*  - 

When  you  have  been  at  sea  on  board  a  man 
of  war,  did  you  ever  know  any  cooks  that  were 
disabled  seamen  ? — Yes ;  I  have  seen  them 
without  legs  or  arms ;  but  they  had  people  to 
do  their  dutv  for  them ;  I  had  one,  at  sea  with 
me  that  had  never  a  hand,  but  he  had  always 
cook's  mate  and  cook's  shifter,  as  we  call 
them :  I  look  upon  it  a  cook  of  Greenwich 
Hospital  should  be  a  good  active  man. 

Do  you  imagine  a  seaman  is  capable  of 
being  a  cook  at  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — Some 
may,  and  some,  may  not:  I  do  not  think 
tvery  seaman  is  a  cook.  " 

But  whether  no  seaman  is  a*  cook,  is  my 
question  ? — ^I  believe  there  are  many  seamen 
cooks,  and  many  that  miebtdo  that  business. 

Who  pays  the  deputy  barber,  do  you  ima- 
gine?— 1  cannot,  say;  this  is  a  matter  that 
never  comes  before  the  militarv  officers. 

Did  you  never  hear  whom  mis  barber  that 
shaved  the  people  was  paid  by  ? — I  suppose 
the  barber  that  has  the  business  of  the  Hos- 
pital pays  his  deputy  barbers. 

I  think  you  told  us  you  had  the  misfortune 
io  be  a  good  deal  afflicted  with  the  eout ;  you 
have  the  misfortune  to  be  so  much  troubled 
with  that  disorder,  as  to  be  frequently  pre- 
vented attending  the  council?— Sometimes  I 
have  been  prevented,  and  have  been  carried 
over  in  a  chair. 

Wwre  you  able  to  attend  that  partiodar 
council  when  the  great  complaints  were  made 
with  regard  to  the  brewbg  ? — I  was  at  the 
council  then,  and  I  believe  that  complaint 
came  to  me  first  as  captain  of  the  week ;  and 
I  believe  I  sent  them  to  the  iieutenant-go-> 
vemor,  and  the  lieutenant-^vemor  sent 
them  to  me ;  but  that  was  a  piece  of  roguery 
of  a  man  who  drew  the  beer,  which  was  de- 
tected afterwards,  and  he  was  expelled  the 
Hospital.  It  was  not  the  badness  of  the  beer 
that  came  from  the  brew-house,  but  he  had  a 
vagr  ot4MteItcratiDg  the  beer  9  it  was  proved 


he  sold  the  ale  and  small  beer,  and  tfaerefora 
he  was  eitpelled  and  turned  out  of  the  Hos- 
pital. 

What  was  ybur  own  opinion  upon  that  af- 
fair ?  What  did  you  juaee  to  be  the  truth  of 
that  affair? — I  r^ly  could  not  tell  how  or 
which  way  the  , beer  came  bad;  but  Mr. 
Mylne,  the  clerk  of  the  works,  who  is  a  veir 
sensible  clever  fellow,  he  found  it  out,  which 
I  could  not ;  I  heard  him  say  that  the  beer  is 
adulterated  at  the  sink  where  it  was  drawn^ 
and  it  does  not  come  from  the  brew-house ;  I 
could  not  have  found  it  out,  and  he  found  it . 
out,  and  we  detected  the  man  upon  it 

When  did  that  appear  ? — Last  summer  waa 
a  twelvemonth. 

Was  it  soon  after  the  time  the  beer  was 
complained  of  that  it  was  found  out? — I  be- 
lieve it  was  soon  af\er  that,  that  he  was  de- 
tected, and  bipueht  to  the  council,  and  ex- 
pelled the  house,  out  I  tannot  exactly  speak 
to  time. 

Am  I  to  understand  that  you  lai^  the  whole 
mismanagement  of  the  beer  to  this  man,  thai 
was  detected  in  adulterating  it  at  tlie  siidcf — 
I  do  not  know ;  as  he  was  aetccted  in  that,  I 
suppose  it  was. 

You  do  suppose  so  P — ^I  suppose  so ;  but  in 
hot  weather  orewinzs  will  be  bad  sometimes. 

Are  there  two  sinks,  or  one  ? — Two  sinks. 

Do  you  imagine  that  this  man  could  be  at 
both  smks  at  tne  same  time  ? — I  suppose  not. 

How  do  you  account  for  its  bemg  adul- 
terated then  f — The  beer  was  adulterated,  and 
stole  by  a  man  whose  name  was  Luke  Davis  ; 
he  was  brought  to  the  council,  and  it  was  made 
appear ;  so  that  it  was  the  opinion  of  the 
council  that  he  should  be  expelled  the  Hos- 
pital ;  and  he  was  accordingly  expelled. 

I  think  you  said  you  attributea  the  badness 
of  the  beer  entirely  to  his  adulterating  of  it; 
now.  how  could  he  adulterate  it  at  both  sinks  f 
— ^Tnat  was  a  matter  of  opinion,  that  we 
thought  so. 

Upon  what  ground  was  that  opinion  form- 
ed, tnat  a. man  at  one  sink  would  adulterate 
beer  at  another? — ^We  detected  the  man; 
that  is  all  I  know ;  all  I  know  since  that  man 
has  been  expelled,  we  have  never  had  a  drop 
of  bad  beer ;  I  never  drank  a  drop  of  finer 
beer  in  my  life. 

How  far  are  those  two  sinks  separate  from 
each  other  ? — ^I  cannot  say. 

Are  they  in  the  same  room? — ^I  really  do 
not  recollect  whether  I  ever  saw  more  than 
one  sink. 

Are  they  not  in  different  rooms  ?— I  really. 
cannot  tell. 

Are  there  not  two  dinine  halls  ? — There  is. 

Is  there  a  sink  in  eaoi  hall'? — ^Really,  I 
cannot  say  as  to  thaf. 

Do  you  recollect  'there  being  a  great  num- 
ber of  gallons  of  beer  started  in  the  cellar^— 
I  do  not  recollect  any  such  thing;  I  have 
heard  of  it,  but  that  was' before  my  coming 
into  the  Hospital. 

Could  that  have  been  oiviog  to  this  xa/ssk 


Do  you  know  that  both  in  the  sea  and  in^      Therefore  you  |^  „ 

ie  navy^  there  b  a  variety  of  people  who    ihere  had  been  no  vacancy  when  captain 
ive  been  bred  up  to  every  trade  ?— Certain-    Cooke  returned,  I 


437]         rtipecHng  the  Rogal  HotfiUtl  at 

that  adulterated  the  beer  at  the  »nks  ?— -Un- 
doubtedly not;  that  beer  was  sour,  as  I  un- 
derstand. 

Whether  you  look  upon  it  as  necessary  to 
have  a  landman,  and  wnether  a  seaman  can- 
not answer  the  purpose  as  well  as  a  landman, 
of  brewing  the  beer  r — I  do  not  know ;  I  never 
knew  a  sailor  a  brewer  in  my  life,  except 
brewing  spruce  beer  at  Newfoundland ;  when 
I  was  a  captain  there,  I  brewed  beer  myself 
then,  the  common  spruce  beer. 

r       

the 

have  Deen  bred  up  to  every 
ly;  there  are  all  trades. 
.  Are  there  not  cabinet-makers  and  joiners, 
which  are  trades  more  mysterious?  Are  there 
not  carpenters  and  every  other  trade  to  be 
thought  of  within  that  numerous  body,  may 
there  not  be  met  with  a  seaman  that  brews 
heer  ?---Tbere  are  all  trades  and  occupations 
bebnging  to  a  man  of  war ;  I  liave  met  with 
all  trades  there  almost,  except  a  brewer ;  car- 
penters, joiners,  jewellers,  silversmiths,  chim- 
ney-sweepers, and  all  trades,  except  a  brewer ; 
there  might  be  brewers  on  board  a  man  of 
war;  but,  as  we  don*t  employ  them  in  the 
way  of  brewing  on  board  a  snip,  I  do  not  re- 
collect any. 

What  is  that  ^reat  mysteiy  of  brewing ;  as 
jfou  have  met  with  all  trades  and  occupations 
m  the  navy,  why  not  meet  with  a  brewer  ? — I 
will  tell  your  lordships  why  I  never  met  with 
"any ;  there  might  be  brewers  in  men  of  war, 
as  well  as  other  trades ;  but  we  never  employ- 
ed a  brewer  on  board  a  man  of  war ;  had  we 
brewed  there,  we  might  have  met  with 
brewersy  as  we  found  out  other  trades,  by  em- 
ploying carpenters,  and  such  people. 

If  YOU  were  to  take  a  seaman,  as  you  have 
all  other  trades ;  if  you  were  to  take  a  seaman 
on  shore^  and  employ  him  in  the  great  mys- 
tery (for  so  it  seems  to  be)  of  brewing,  do  not 
you  think  you  could  find  a  man  that  could  have 
brewed  ? — Undoubtedly;  I  do  not  think  Uiere 
is  any  neat  art  in  brewing ;  I  brewed  spruce 
beer;  I  found  no  great  oifEculW  in  that;  I 
pever  brewed  malt  b^r  in  my  lire. 

Viscount  Dudley.  I  ask,  to  your  knowledge 
and  belief,  whether  the  present  first  lord  of 
the  Admiralty  is  every  way  as  much  approved 
of  in  that  office  as  his  predecessor*,  lord 
Bawke  ?  [Captain  Chadds  withdrew.] 

Tkundatfy  May  97, 1779. 

Captain  Chadds  called,  one  of  Lord  Sandwich's 

witnesses. 

Duke  of  BoUan.  Whom  did  you  succeed 
in  Greenwich  Hospital?— Captain  Lynn. 

*  Tliij  qoestion,  pat  by  lord  Dadley,  the  friend  of 
kvd  SlMidwidi,  to  oapUin  diadds,  who  had  lieen 
bat  a  ihort  time  in  the  Hospital,  and  uu  whom  a 
lavoar  had  b^eo  just  conferred  by  the  first  lord  of 
the  A-dmiralty,  roo'^dog  the  oppoiiition,  and  occa- 
Booiiig  some  debates  on  account  of  the  impropriety 
ef  the  eoiflparifon,  wan  withdrawn  bj  the  noble 
linL    Orig.Ed,     * 


A.  D.  1778. 


[4S8 


Upon  what  vacancy  did  you  come  in?— « 
Upon  the  vacancy  of  captain  Cooke,  who  is 
the  circumnavigator,  gone  round  the  world. 

Did  you  come  in  upon  any  proviso,  that  if 
captain  Cooke  returned,  you  must  resign  your 
place  in  the  Hospital  ?— Yes ;  I  had  that  offer 
made  me ;  I  quitted  my  ship  two  or  three 
times,  not  being  able  to  serve. 

Whether  captain  Bsdllie's  removal  ha^  not 
established  you  in  the  Hospital  ? — His  removal 
made  me  third  captain. 

Therefore  you  got  rid  of  that  proviso  ?— If 


was  to  go  out. 
[Captain  Chadds  withdrew.] 

Lieutenant  Betson,  another  of  Lord  Sandwich's 

witnesses. 

Are  you  of  the  council  P — I  am. 

How  Ions  have  you  been  of  the  council  ?— « 
Ever  since  I  belonged  to  the  Hospital,  which 
is  above  20  years ;  as  an  officer,  of  course  I 
became  one  of  the  council,  the  moment  I  was 
appointed,  as  one  of  the  naval  officers. 

Do  the  military  officers  attend  their  duty? 
— ^Yes.  • 

Do  the  civil  officers  attend  their  duty  j — ^I 
believe  they  do.  , 

Are  there  generally  more  military  or  civil 
officers  attencung  ? — In  general  more  military. 

Have  you  observe^  9iat  the  civil  officers 
form  a  faction  ?— Not  in  the  least  that  I  know 
of. 

Do  you  know  of  any  attempts  in  them  to 
secure  a  majority  ?— I  am  entirely  ignorant  of 
that. 

Is  any  such  nuyority  secured  ?*-Not  that  I 
know  of. 

Do  vou  know  of  any  complaints  being 
quashed  improperly  ? — ^None. 

Do  ybu  know  ot  any  redress  being  refused? 
— ^Not  any  that  I  know  of. 

Do  you  know  of  any  cajole  with  the  pen- 
sioners ? — I  don't  understand  what  that  is. 

Have  you  been  often  absent  from  the  Hos- 
pital?—Not  six  months,  put  it  all  together, 
for  above  20  years. 

If  there  had  been  any  grievance,  must  you 
have  known  it? — Certsunly  I  should  Ixave 
heard  of  it. 

Has  the  government  of  that  Hospital  been 
well  regulated?— If  your  lordships  will  give 
me  leave  to  answer  fully  what  I  know,  con- 
nectedly with  this  question,  I  shall  be  glad 
to  be  indulged. 

You  may  go  on. — In  captain  Baillie's  print- 
ed book,  upon  your  lordships'  table,  among 
many  other  charges,  there  is  a  stisma  thrown 
upon  the  council  of  Greenwich  iiospital  col- 
lectively ;  I  have  no  concern  with  any  of  the 
charges  against  individuals,  it  is  that  against 
the  council  that  affects  me ;  and  I  should  look 
upon  myself  exceedingly  injured,  if  I  had  not 
an  opportunity  of  explaming  that  matter.  If 
•captain  Baillie  knew  of  any  grievances,  that 
injured  the  pensioners,  he  must  know  that  it 
was  his  indispensible  duty  to  have  laid  those 
grievances  before  the  council,  that  being  th« 
proper  channel  previous  to  any  other.    Fo 


AS9] 


18  GEORGE  III.         nd  Cm  ^'Captm  Thomoi  Bt^Oim,         \m 


above  20  years  past,  and  I  ha;ve  attended  the 
council  as  oflen  as  any  ofiker  of  my  station, 
in  the  council,  I  never  knew  of  any  single 
complaint  coming  before  the  council,  com- 
plaining of  the  quantity  or  quality  of  provi- 
sion, clothing,  or  any  thing  allowed  the  pen- 
sioners by  the  estabhshment,  but  that  if  the 
complaint  appeared  a  just  one,  eveiy  officer 
present  was  as  ready  as  captain  Baillle  could 
pe  to  redress  it,  if  they  had  it  in  their  power; 
if  they  had  it  not  in  their  power,  they  never 
failed  to  lay  it  before  the  board  of  directors ; 


captain 

with  any  opposition,  wherein  the  pensioners' 
welfare  was  concerned.  Now  the  good  go- 
vernment and  regularity  of  the  pensioners, 
and  the  protection  of  them,  is  intrusted  to  the 
council.  Captain  Baillie  has  met  with  some 
little  opposition  in  other  things,  but  totally 
different  from  what  is  mentioned  in  the  book ;. 
this  I  will  maintain,  with  regard  to  the  good 
government  of  the  Hospital ;  there  are  every 
week  complaints  of  pensioners  and  nurses, 
against  one  another,  for  neglect  of  duty,  pil- 
fering and  pawning  the  thmM  under  their 
charge;  tbe^e  are  punished  oy  mulct,  by 
fines,  or  as  the  council  shall  think  right.  Aj& 
to  mulcting  a  man,  three  weeks  instead  of  a 
fortnight  or  so,  we  are  not  always  unanimous 
in  that;  but  I  should  never  have  an  idea,  that 
a  gentleman  would  make  an  opposition  against 
toother,  where  a  poor  pensioner  is  to  be 
mulct ;  I  never  knew  of  any  opposition  where 
a  poor  pensioner  was  injured. 

There  is  another  thing,  and  captain  Baillie, 
if  he  is  present,  hears  me,  and  he  was  once  of 
the  same  opinion  as  mysd'f;  since  1  have 
been  in  the  Hospital,  there  have  been  six  dif- 
ferent lords  of  tne  Admiralty;  I  donH  pre- 
sume to  give  the  least  distant  hinL  upon  any 
consideration,  what  the  first  lord  of  the  Admi- 
ralty should  do,  relative  to  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital, I  only  speak  to  the  fact,  what  I  know 
myself.  I  have  attended  the  present  first 
lord  of  the  Admiralty,  in  different  wards ;  I 
have  attiended  him  in  tne  dining  hall ;  he  has 
examined  the  pensioners'  lodging,  diel^  cloath- 
ing,  and  every  thing  of  that  sort ;  we  all  lobk- 
ecTupon  it  he  came  on  purpose  to  redress 
^evances,  if  there  had  oeen  any  existing; 
that  I  conceive  to  have  been  Ae  time  for  com- 
plaint, if  any  existed.  I  have  been  told,  that 
this  book  was  in  hand  before  this;  I  will 
not  take  upon  me  to  say  that  it  was^  but  I 
never  heard  any  complamts  at  that  time.  I 
do  declare,  as  I  am  nere  upon  my  oath  (as 
inuch  has  been  said  of  party  and  faction,  and 
civil  influence,  from  views  of  interest,  and  in- 
timidations being  made  use  of,  to  make  a 
party  against  captain  Baillie)  I  declare^  I 
never  received  a  single  favour  firom  the  first 
lord  of  the  Admiralty,  nor  do  I  ever  expect 
any.  I  never  had  a  private  quarrel  with  cap- 
tain Baillie  in  my  life,  and  I  have  known  him 
17  years;   what  I  have  done  has  not  been 


horn  any  private  prcyudice  wbsiever,  it  bat 
been  injustice  to  the  council,  and  to  the  so»> 
ciety  I  hve  in ;  I  liave  no  prejudice,  of  an/ 
sort,  privately  against  ca4)t;un  Baillie. 

Are  the  pensioners  nappy,  and  satisfied 
with  their  situation  ? — There  are  discontented 
men  in  all  societies,  but  they  have  no  reasoa 
to  be  otherwise  than  happy ;  I  don't  know 
any  of  them  that  are  not  nappy. 

Has  captain  Baillie's  behaviour,  at  the 
council,  been  proper  and  temperate  ? — ^Whea 
first  he  was  made  liaitenant-govemor,  I 
thought  he  had  a  capacity,  and  manner,  and 
address,  that  woulid  nave  done  honour  to  hif 
station ;  but  as  I  am  called  upon  to  answer 
the  question,  I  must  ^y,  there  b  a  little  heat 
and  overbearin^ess  in  his  temper;  it  is  a 
constitutional  discontented  mind,  I  am  afraid, 
from  jealousy  and  suspicion,  and  little  private 
prejudices  made  the  captain  forget  iumself, 
with  re^urd  to  being  warm,  and  little  alteica> 
tions  have  happened,  I  believe,  on  that  ac- 
count ;  but  in  every  other  respect,  in  private, 
he  has  always  behaved  to  me  as  a  aentlemaa 
in  every  respect,  but  at  council  taere  have 
been  heats;  I  have  never  had  words  with 
him  myself,  but  I  have  seen  it  in  otliers. 

Do  you  think  that  his  conduct  has  been 
such,  as  tended  to  make  the  pensioners  happy  \ 
•^If  the  happiness  of  the  peasioners  dep«id- 
ed  upon  their  being  satisfied  with  every  tninfi 
they  ought  to  be  satisfied  with,  there  certain^ 
have  been  steps  taken  to  prevent  that;  sa 
far  I  cannot  say  that  they  are  happy. 

Have  the  members  of  the  council  been  sui^ 
ficiently  active  in  their  duty? — ^I  never  knew 
to  the  contrary,  particularly  where  it  appeared 
that  the  pensioner  was  any  ways  iqjwd  ia 
any  thing  that  was  allowed  him  by -the  estab* 
lishment ;  captain  Baillie^  to  my  Knowledge, 
never  met  witn  any  opposition  at  council. 

Has  the  manner  in  which  captain  Bailiit 
proceeded,  been  of  a  nature  to  conciliate  or 
mfiame  the  minds  of  the  parties  concerned? 
— Before  the  book  was  published,  we  were 
entirely  isnorant  of  the  charsea  against  u% 
for  we  did  not  know  of  a  single  one,  till  they 
went  as  a  complaint  against  us  to  the  lords  of 
the  Admiralty;  since  the  book  is  published, 
I  believe  the  pensioners  have  a  notion,  thai 
captain  Baillie  is  the  only  man  in  the  Hospi* 
tal  who  is  their  friend,  of  course  tho  rest  aft 
too  bad  to  name,  firom  the  notion  that  no- 
body will  do  justice  to  them  but  captain 
Baillie. 

Do  you  mean  that  captain  Baillie's  conduct 
in  general,  has  been  of  a  nature  to  conciliate 
or  mfiame.  with  regard  to  both  pensioners 
imd  council,  and  every  body  that  mijiht  be 
concerned  ? — ^The  house,  from  the  pubhcatioii 
of  this  book,  has  been  in.  a  confiision  that  it 
was  not  before ;  and  I  must  say  further,  (I 
hope  I  shall  not  be  looked  upon  to  be  prejil- 
diced,  for  really  I  am  not  no  more  than 
speaking  the  truth)  since  captain  Baillie  has 
been  made  lieutenant  governor  of  Greenwich 
Hospital,  there  has  not  been  that  peace,  hap- 


441]         rtspecting  ike  Ro^  Hdgpkai  ^  Greetmch.        A.  D.  1778. 


im 


plness  aod  ttanquiUity  in  the  Hosfttial  that 
there  was  before. 

Wh^  did  you  sign  the  Memorial  against 
the  heutenant  governor? — ^When  captain 
Baillie's  book  was  carried  to  the  first  lord  of 
the  Admiralty,  die  title  of  it  we  heard,  but 
did  not  know  the  contents;  the  particulars, 
the  oflkers  wished  much  to  see  it,  at  last  we 
got  a  sffht  of  it ;  I  read  it  over,  but  that  part 
which  throws  a  stigma  upon  the  council,  I 
perused  veiv- attentively;  I  judged  for  my- 
self, and  I  believe  the  others  did  tlie  same ; 
tiiose  officers,  who  were  conscious  of  having 
acted  with  integrity,  met  captain  BaiUie  at  a 
lull  council  witn  his  book,  djod  there,  face  to 
iace,  had  those  parts  read,  which  reflected 
upon  the  council ;  at  the  same  time  we  had  a 
Memorial  drawn  ud^  to  present  .to  the  lords 
of  the  Admiralty,  aisavowing  tiie  charge,  and 
praying  their  lordships  to  mder  an  enquiry, 
that  justice  might  be  done  us ;  we  considerea, 
that  if  captain  Baillie  had  attacked  any  of  us 
in  our  private  characters,  a  private  satis&c- 
tion  m^ht  have  sufficed ;  but  in  our  public 
capacity,  we  thou^t  the  Admiralty  the  oiUy 
place  to  look  up  to  for  redress,  that  is  my 
reason  for  signine the  first  memorial;  caf>lain 
Baillie  was  oonsraerably  asitated  at  ihe  time, 
he  endeavoured  to  prevail  with  some  of  the 
officers  not  to  ^gn  it ;  I  believe  he  did  pre- 
vail with  some  not  to  sign  it  A  captain, 
who  I  believe  is  present,  and  hears  m^-  and 
he  has  deposed  at  your  lordships'  bar  to  the 
same  purport,  that  he  was  very  much  sur- 
prised, that  the  lieutenant  governor  should  be 
attacked  in  that  manner ;  he  thought  it  un- 
&ir  to  attack  him  to  his  fiice  in  that  manner ; 
my  a&swer  was,  that  I  thought  it  more  manly 
lo  attack  a  man  to  his  £ace,  than  behind  his 
back;  captain  BaiUie  had  presented  com- 
plaints against  us  to  the  Admiralty,  without 
our  knowine  what  they  were  till  after  they 
were  pubhsned,  that  was  the  reason  for  what 
we  did ;  we  signed  it  there ;  we  had  it  r«u} 
over  to  him;  1  thought  that  was  doing  it 
much  6urer,  than  dmng  it  behind  his  back. 

Have  you  any  such  tning  as  a  pillory  in  the 
Hospital  at  Greenwich? — I  omitted,  among 
other  things,  to  tell  your  lordships,  that  as 
weU  as  the  yellow  coat,  there  is  what  they 
call  the  elevated  place,  it  is  in  a  conspicuous 
part  of  the  hall,  raised  about  the'  heighth  of 
the  bottom  of  a  chair,  that  the  pensioners 
may  all,  while  they  are  at  dinner,  see  who  ill 
there,  and  what  they  are  for,  it  is  no  more 
£ke  a  pillory  than  what  a  chair  is ;  ti^ere  is  a 
rail  they  may  lean  upon;,  those  that  are  in- 
finn,  if  they  please ;  there  was  a  witness  that 
was  lately  called  to  your  lordships'  bar,  who 
dofosedy  about  refusing  to  be  put  in  the  pil- 
loiy. 

You  are  not  to  mention  what  he  deposed ; 
you  don't  know  of  any 'such  place  as  is  called 
a  piBory,  do  you?»I  never  heard  of  the  term 
till  mentioned  at  your  lordshipsl  bar. 

That  has  none  of  the  properties  of  a  pil*- 
lorgf^  has iti«-^o;  it  ifijuttas  I  ftaad  here. 


there  is  a  litlde  bar  to  dap  tfaeu*  hands  on,  to 
support  themselTes  to  stand  upright,  notlung 
more. 

Cross-Examined  by  the  Duke  of  Richmond. 

Where  are  you  lodged  in  the  Hospital } — I 
am  lodged  (unfortunately  for  me  with  one 
leg)  at  the  top  of  the  house,  where  I  have 
been  ever  since  I  first  came  to  the  Hospitel. 

Have  there  been  any  additions  made  to 
your  apartments  since  you  came*? — ^There 
have  been  a  few,  and  if  there  had  been  mora 
there  would,  not  have  been  too  much. 

Have  thore  been  any  rooms  for  your  apa^ 
ment  made  in  the  roof  of  the  building  f^-^ 
There  has  been  a  nx>m  for  a  servant;  I  had 
no  convenience  to  lodge  a  servant  in  the 

Elace  I  had  below ;  it  is  so  damp  they  wera 
ud  up  every  winter  with  the  rheumatism. 

Have  you  had  one  or  two  rooms  madef-— 
One  room  only. 

Nothing  more? — ^I  have  a  little  slip  I  can 
just  stow  my  clothes  in,  which  cannot  be 
called  a  room,  it  is  just  a  slight  partition  to 
separate  it ;  I  might  have  laidit  in  one. 

There  are  two  rooms  of  some  sort  or  other, 
whether  great  or  small  ? — ^There  is  but  one 
taken  out  of  the  roof,  the  other  is  over  my 
kitchen. 

That  which  is  over  the  kitchen  is  not  in 
the  roof? — Ho ;  one  is  made  from  the  roof, 
the  other  out  of  the  kitchen ;  it  is  at  the  top 
of  the  kitchen  which  joins  to  the  roof;  it  is  a 
skv'light  afiair. 

Is  mere  a  fire-place  in  one  of  them?^>^ 
There  is,  but  being  a  servant's  room,  it  ha^ 
never  had  a  fire  in  it,  nor  I  never  intend 
there  shoiild,  except  when  they  are  ill. 

Has  not  the  original  kitchen  bek>nging  to 
your  apartment  been  made  into  a  bedEcham- 
ber  ? — It  has. 

Have  you  had  a  bed-chamber  made  into  a 
kitchen  ? — The  kitchen  was  converted  into  a 
bed-chamber,  and  bed-chamber  into  a  kitchen, 
bmng  much  safer  than  having  it  up  so  near 
the  apartments. 

Does  the  drain  of  that  kitchen  run  through 
three  of  the  men's  cabins? — It  runs  through 
a  comer  of  a  cabin  in  one  ward,  and  may  go 
down,  I  believe,  through  one  cabin  more  at 
the  bottom ;  I  cannot  answer  to  that,  I  would 
not  answer  to  what  I  do  not  perfectly  knowf ; 
I  think  it  goes  at  the  first  caoin,  not  through 
it,  and  at  the  bottom  of  all,  it  goes  through 
one  of  the  men's  cabins. 

Did  it  not  run  under  one  of  the  men's  beds? 
—The  back  of  the  bed. 

Does  it  not  run  through  the  nurses'  closet  ^ 
— ^It  does  run  through  the  nurses*  closet. 

Is  it  not  in  an  open  gutter  in  the  nurses' 
ward? — No;  it  is  a  ^tter,  but  there  is  a 
dose  wooden  cover  to  it. 

__        • 

*  This  fkvour  was  graniod  by  lord  Sandwiob,  be* 
ndes  an  addilion  tA  bia  pay.     Otig.  Ed. 
t  This  draift  is  ia  Ueatonaat  Betson^t  diritfioa* 


4430 


18  GiEORGE  III.  The  Coze  of  Captain  Thomas  Badlie,         [444 


Is  it  leaded  down,  or  ludled  down?— The 
gutter  is  leaded,  and  the  cover  is  fixed  down 
close  upon  the  top  of  it. 

So  as  to  prevent  any  stench  coming  from 
it? — ^Whenever  there  is  any  stench,  it  is  al- 
ways removed  immediately  iirom  that  part,  by 
Bending  to  the  office  to  have  it  cleaned  out ; 
I  never  heard  of  an^  complaints  of  it,  that 
were  not  immediately  redressed  and  put  to 
lights. 

Does  it  go  through  the  Cumberland,  the 
Royal  George,  and  the  Jennings  vraxds? — ^I 
believe  it  may,  I  am  not  positive. 

Was  not  that  stench  so  considerable  as  to 
occasion  a  stink  trap  to  be  placed  under  one 
man's  bed,  in  the  Jennings  ward? — ^Yes; 
there  was,  and  not  only  there,  but  in  the  very 
apartments  belonging  to  the  officers,  there 
are  some  of  those  things. 

Is  it  not,  looked  upon  yet  as  a  nuisance  to 
the  inhabitants  of  those  wards  ? — I  don't  hear 
the  men  complain,  I  go  through  often;  I 
have  repeatedly  said,  whenever  you  find  any 
disagreeable  smells  occasioned  by  this,  send 
to  the  office  immediately ;  the  office  will  put 
h  to  rights  directly,  and  remove  this  nuisance; 
80  that,  if  it  ever  happens,  it  is  their  own 
fault  if  they  don't  apply  to  have  it  remedied. 

How  often  is  that  stink  trap  to  be  emptied  ? 
— I  believe  it  may  be,  in  the  summer  time, 
once  a  month,  or  once  in  two  months. 

And  how  often  have  there  been  any  appli- 
cations about  it  ? — ^We  do  not  always  know 
when  the  appUcations  are,  because  the  boat- 
swain of  the  ward  has  a  general  order,  when- 
ever it  appears  the  least  of  a  nuisance  to  the 
ward,  to  send  to  the  office ;  they  immediately 
send,  and  then  it  is  cleansed  out  directly. 

Have  you  had  any  part  of  the  public  pas- 
sage leading  to  your  apartment  inclosed  r— I 
have.  I  will  tell  your  lordships  how  that 
hi^pened;  when  my  apartments  were  last 
pamted.  which  was  I  believe  eight  years  ago, 
I  was  absent  for  a  month  or  six  weeks ;  and 
the  late  governor  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  sir 
George  Kodney,  without  my  knowledj^  took 
upon  him  to  desire  the  board  to  do  it ;  that 
was,  I  believe,  in  consequence  of  tellin|j  him 
that  I  had  my  cupboard  robbed,  which  is  on 
the  outside ;  it  was  all  open  before ;  he  said, 
you  shall  h^ve  it  inclosea.  There  are  no  pen- 
sioners have  any  business  up  that  passage,  it 
is  the  officers  who  have  the  key  to  go  into 
the  wards ;  but  the  pensioners  go  up  another 
way,  they  have  stair-cases  of  their  own. 

How  much  of  that  public  pass^e  have  you 
enclosed? — I  cannot  really  say  now  many 
feet  it  is,  I  never  measured  it ;  there  are  a 
couple  of  windows  taken  in. . 

Was  Mr.  Ibbetson  instrumental  in  getting 
any  of  those  accommodations  for  you  r— Not 
that  I  know  of:  I  will  answer  that  question 
as  far  as  I  know ;  I  was  mentioning  to  your 
lordships  before,  a^  dark  room  which  I  had 
for  my  servant  to  lie  in,  it  was  exceeding 
damp,  the  wet  used  to  run  down  in  the  winter, 
this  joined  close  to  Mr.  Ibbetson's  i  by  open> 


ing  a  communication  to  Mr.  Ibbetson's,  it 
would  have  more  air,  and  the  next  room  to  it 
having  a  fire  would  prevent  this ;  I  said  you 
have  applied  to  have  an  addiUon  to  your 
apartments ;  there  is  no  objection  to  it,  pro- 
vided it  did  not  infringe  upon  the  wards ;  for 
the  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty  had  said,  he 
had  no  objection  to  that,  if  the  pensioners' 
wards  were  not  infringed  on ;  I  said,  if  you 
can  get  me  a  little  room  ma^e,  I  will  ^ve 
this  up  to  you;  I  said,  I  had  no  ol^ection, 
but  I  should  be  veiy  glad  to  ^ve  it  all  up  if  I 
could  get  a  ground  floor ;  for  afler  20  years  I 
found  that  apartment  very  inconvenient. 

You  said,  you  think  that  you  complained 
of  captain  Baillie  concerning  the  printed  Case 
of  Greenwich  Hospital? — ^No:  captain  Baillie 
complained  of  us ;  we  disavowed  the  charge, 
knowing  ourselves  to  be  innocent  of  it;  I 
don't  oul  that  complaining  against  him. 

Was  it  not  stiled  a  complaint  in  the  word- 
ing of  it  ? — ^I  beUeve  not ;  it  was  in  answer 
to  the  charge. 

Was  that  answer  to  the  chargje  an  act  of 
council? — We  met  captain  Bailue  at  a  full 
council,  some  of  the  officers  there  were  for 
complaining;  some  of  the  officers  that  he 
might  have  prevailed  on,  would  not  sign; 
captain  Baillie  g^t  uip  and  left  the  chair; 
there  was  no  president ;  theni  we  could  un- 
doubtedly have  insisted  upon  putting  another 
in  the  chair;  we  thought  it  a  thing  not  to 
debate  about,  for  it  was  no  matter  whether  it 
was  an  act  of  council,  or  of  the  officers  be- 
longing to  the  council. 

Was  it  Bn  act  of  council,  or  not  ?— Not  of 
the  council,  I  beUeve. 

What  complaint  did  captain  Baillie  make 
of  the  council  ?— The  stigma  thrown  on  the 
council  was  (I  don't  recollect  the  words,  but 
it  was  to  this  purport)  that  civil  interest  made 
a  factious  party  among  the  officers  to  oppoM 
him  at  council,  by  which  means  it  frustrated 
his  most  zealous  endeavjours  to  serve  the  pen- 
sioners, and  that  there  was  no  legal  govern- 
ment in  Greenwich  Hospital ;  we  know  that 
to  be  a  gross  misrepresentation,  and  for  that 
reason  we  signed  the  Memorial. 

What  do  you  understand  captain  Baillie 
meant  by  no  legal  government  in  Greenwich 
Hospital?— -The  good  government  and  regu- 
larity of  the  Hospital  is  intrusted  to  the  coun- 
cil, and  his  saying  there  was  no  legal  govern- 
ment of  the  Hospital  was  a  reflection  upon 
the  council. 

Are  you  sure  he  meant  the  council  by  that? 
— I  only  speak  it  as  the  matter  struck  me. 

Did  you  ask  him  whether  he  meant  the 
council  ?— The  first  day  of  the  enqiury  I  met 
him,  he  said  to  me,  I  have  nothing  to  flay 
against  you,  you  are  a  naval  officer;  I  Tt- 
member  that;  but  when  I  came  to  see  this, 
I  saw  it  must  be  a  very  odd  a&ir  to  be  de- 
ceived in  that  manner,  when  he  says  there 
is  no  legal  government  in  Greenwich  Hospi- 
tal, and  a  nctious  party  amcmg  the  officers. 
Now  fourteen  militaiy  officers  must  have  a 


44o]         re^iecHxg  the  Royal  Hospital  ai  Greenmch.         A..  D.  1778. 


[44ff 


majority  over  five  or  six  civil,  and  therefore 
must  prevail,  unless  the  military  act  a  rascally 
part  to  deceive  tne  Hospital ;  if  he  had  said 
who  they  were,  and  not  mentioned  my  name, 
I  would  never  have  sisned  any  thine  against 
him.  If  captain  BaiBie  had  any  thin^,  and 
broi^ht  it  to  council,  where  the  pensioners 
were  injured,  I  would  have  been  one  of  the 
first  that  would  have  joined  him. 

Captain  Baillie  saia  he  had  no  complaint 
^  against   you? — ^As  a  naval  officer,  he  said; 
this  might  have  been  told  every  one  separate; 
but  I  don't  sav  tliat  it  was  so. 

Biit  he  did  not  say  he  had  no  complaint 
against  you? — ^When  he  came  up  to  my 
apartment,  which  was  to  examine  a  little 
tnfling  addition,  which  if  your  lordships  were 
to  see,  I  am  sure  you  wouJd  think  trining  in- 
deed ;  when  I  was  going  to  explain  to  part  of 
the  committee  what  was  done,  he  said,  Mr. 
Besson,  I  have  nothing  to  say  to  you,  you  are 
a  naval  officer. 

Then  captain  Baillie  did  say  he  had  no 
complaint  against  you,  you  being  a  naval 
officer  ? — He  did. 

I  think  you  said  cantain  Baillie  had  com- 
plained agamst  you,  ana  yours  was  an  answer 
to  that  complaint? — ^These  are  charges 
asainst  individuals,  which  I  told  your  lord- 
ships I  had  no  concern  with;  here  is  no 
charge  against  the  council  collectively ;  I,  as 
one  of  theoK  joined  with  those  officers,  who, 
conscious  of  having  acted  with  integrity,  we 
disavowed  jointly  ;  we  could  not  go  separate- 
ly ;  I  own,  I  could  not  with  any  degree  of 
temper  read  it.^  -^. 

Q.  I  desire  the  short-hand  writer  will  refer 
back  to  an  answer  the  witness  gave,  where  he 
said  that  the  happiness  of  the  pensioners  de- 
pend^ upon  their  being  satisfied  with  every 
thing,  &c. 

Mr.  Gumey  read  from  his  short-hand  notes 
the  question  and  answer  as  foUoweth : 

*^  Q,  Do  you  think  that  his  (captain  Bail- 
lie's)  conduct  has  bten  such  as  to  make  the 
pensioners  happy  ? — A.  If  the  happiness  of  the 
pensioners  depended  upon  ^eir  oeing  satis- 
fied with  eveiy  thing  they  ought  to  be  satis- 
fied with,  there  certainly  haV^  been  steps 
taken  to  prevent  that :  so  far  I  cannot  say 
they  are  nappy.'' 

What  do  you  mean  by  steps  taken  to  pre- 
vent their  happiness  ? — ^What  I  conceive  of  it 
is  this;  that  oy  publishing  this  book,  and  re- 
peating many  things  that  have  been  settled 
before,  as  to  bull  beef,  and  sour  small  beer,  I 
am  sure  yovr  lordships  have  heard  so  much 
of  it,  you  must  be  tired  with  it.  That  matter 
««8  settled,  and  eveiy  step  taken  that  could 
be  taken;  and  we  thought  there  was  an  end 
of  that,  when  this  was  revived  again  in  the 
book,  and  in  such  a  manner,  that  straneers 
and  pensioners  coming  in  every  day,  uiey 
must  look  upon  it,  that  they  must  eat  bull 
beef^  and  sour  small  beer ;  that  it  would  be 
GODtmuedy  and  that  captain  BoiUie  was  the 

t  * 


only  honest  man,  the  only  man  of  integrity 
that  was  capable  to  judge  properly  for  them ; 
and^  that  by  frustrating  him,  they  must  be  ii^ 
jured.  Tins  I  conceive  of  the  matter,  that 
that  did  a  great  deal  of  injuiy ;  for  I  do  not 
know  a  single  officer  belonging  to  the  council, 
but  what  would  always  be  as  ready  to  do  jus- 
tice to  the  pensioners,  as  captain  Baillie  him- 
self, though  not  to  endeavour  to  make  them- 
selves popular ;  for  no  man  has  a  right  to  ar- 
rogate popularity  to  himself,  at  the  expence  of 
the  council;  and  this  was  representing,  that 
the  whole  body  of  officers  were  set  a^nst 
him,  and  if  they  succeeded,  the  pensioners 
should  live  upon  bull  beef,  and  sour  small 
beer  for  ever  aflcr.    This  is  my  idea  of  it. 

Be  so  sood  as  to  point  out  that  part  of  cap-' 
tain  BailTie's  book,  where  it  says  that,  or  any 
thing  hke  it ;  that  the  pensioners  are  to  ex- 
pect, that  they  are  to  continue  to  be  so  treat- 
ed?-—>Not  literally,  but  I  think  it  points  it  out 
Very  strong. 

Can  you  point  out  any  one  word,  or  syllable, 
in  captain  Baillie's  book,  that  insinuates,  that 
the  above  abuses  of  the  sour  beer,  and  of  th« 
bull  beef,  were  ever  to  be  continued? — ^Not 
literally  so ;  I  am  oply  telling  your  lordships, 
with  regard  to  the  TOnsioners,  their  idea  when 
they  come  in.  Wnat  is  the  matter  ?  why, 
such  a  matter  is  now  in  agitation,  and  so  and 
so;  captain  ^ullie  is  our  friend,  and  we 
should  live  upon  bull  beef,  and  arink  sour 
small  beer,  if  it  was  not  for  him.  He  is  our 
friend,  and  is  doing  all  in  his  power  to  redress 
us;  and  here  are  a  body  or  men  opposing 
him,  and  frustrating  every  good  attempt  for 
us,  ^at  he  is  trying  at.  Perhaps  these  men 
never  read  tiie  book,  but  from  hearing  that 
the  book  has  been  productive  of  this. 

You  were  asked,  if  captain  Baillie  bad  done 
any  thins  that  should  cause  discontent? — ^Not 
of  himself ;  I  should  suppose  he  would  have 

Srudence  enough  not  publicly.  Indeed,  I 
on't  insinuate  mnn  my  own  knowledge,  that 
he  ever  tampered  with  the  pensioners,  or  told 
them  so. 

Then,  what  you  say,  amounts  to  this  :  that 
the  pensioners  think  captain  Baillie  their 
only  niend  ?— Some  of  them  may,  from  the 
motives  I  mentioned,  not  from  any  motives 
of  justice  ;  but  they  have  been  misled,  and 
made  to  believe  that,  one  among  another. 

I  understood  you,  that  since  the  book  has 
been  published,  the  pensioners  have  a  notion, 
that  they  have  no  friend  but  captain  Baillie  in 
the  Hospital  ? — Some  of  them. 

You  aid  not  before  restrict  it  to  some  ? — I 
meant  in  general. 

In  general,  have  they  that  opinion  ? — ^I  am 
persuaded  they  have  not  at  present,  thoujgh 
they  might  some  little  time  ago ;  as,  for  in- 
stance, at  the  door  of  the  House  of  Lords,  the 
mutinous  riot  that  was  assembled  there. 

A  mutinous  riot  did  you  call  it  ? — ^We  look 
upon  it  so  in  the  militairy  way,  when  a  bodj' 
of  men  assemble  without  an  order  of  their 
officers.    Wh«a  th»  deputy  usher  of  the  MMk, 


447] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaHUcf   *      [449 


rod,  Mr.  Quaimey  came  into  the  coffee-rooiii^ 
he  said,  what  aie  your  men  assembled  here 
for;  I  saidyl  don't  know;  he  said,  they  ob- 
stniet  the  lords  coming  to  the  House  ;  I  said, 
if  I  had  an  order  to  ask  them  that  question,  I 
would  go;   captain  Maplesden,  and  several 
others  said,  I  wish  you  would ;  I  went  out,  I 
did  not  choose  to  expose  the  authoritjr  of 
Greenwich  Hospital,  to  call  out  publicly  to 
the  men  to  disperse,  for  fear  they  should  re- 
vise me ;  I  called  three  or  four  of  the  boat- 
swains to  me  :  Who  ordered  you  here  ?  No- 
body : .  Then  why  do  you  assemble  in  this 
manner  ?   They  could  not  tell;  I  said,  if  you 
have  no  other  reason,  I  desire  you  to  dis- 
perse ;  go  and  tell  the  men  they  have  no  bu- 
siness to  form  in  thai  regular  manner,  as  if 
they  were  coming  to  besiege  the  door  of  the 
House«of  Lords.    They  went  away,  they  paid 
no  attention  to  what  I  said ;   I  returned ;   I 
thoudit  the  men  would  certainly  have  done 
as  I  desired  them;  they  did  not,  they  remain- 
ed there  afterwards*     ,  lieutenant-governor 
Maplesden  went  out  himself,  when  he  heard 
a  huzzaing;   he  wove  his  cane,  as  we  do 
sometimes  to  those  to  tell  them  to  disperse; 
I  bdieve  your  lordships  have  heard  oefore 
the  result  of  that,  from  the  minutes  of  the 
council,  they  were  very  insolent  and  mu- 
tinous.    One  went  up  to  him  in  a  darinz 
manner,<:alled  him  an  old  scoundrel,  and  said 
they  would  do  as  they  pleased.     The  matter 
came  before  the  council ;  we  were  as  tender 
as  possible,  because  we  thought  much  would 
be  made  of  it.     Those  that  disobeyed  my 
orders,  were  mulcted  only  half  a  crown,*  and 
the  man  who  fiounshed  his  cane  over  the 
'  lieutenant-govemor's  head  was  reduced  to  a 
private  man. 

Do  you  look  upon  it  mutinying  to  disobey 
your  advice  i — ^Wnen  a  body  of  men  are  as- 
sembled, uid  their  officers  desires  them  to 
depart,  disobeying  orders  is  mutiny.' 

Did  yon  thmk  you  had  any  command  over 
a  pensioner  of  Greenwich  Hospital  at  the  door 
of^tiie  Housii  of  Lords  ?»In  all  parts  of  the 
town;  if  I  see  them  drunk  I  take  notice  of 
them. 

I  asked  you  if  you  have  any  autiiority  over 
the  pensioners  at  the  door  of  the  House  of 
Loras?— -I  thou|^t,  out  of  respect  to  your 
lordships,  that  it  was  a  reflection  to  the*  offi- 
cers, seeing  them  there ;  they  might  behave 
insolently  to  your  lordships. 

Do  you  think  you  have  any  authority  over 
the  pensioners  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  when 
out  of  the  Hospital,  and  at  the  aoor  of  the 
House  of  Lords } — i  distinguished  that  parti- 
cularly 4  you  that  are  summoned  by  the 
House  of  Lords  are  to  stay  here,  but  you  who 
an  not  summoned  are  to  gp  about  your  bosi- 
nasa;  that  I  particularly  look  notice  of;  I 
would  not  presume  to  send  away  any  person 
that  was  ordered  to  attend  your  Ictfdships; 
tfti^  have  an  equal  right  with  myself;   but 


Oi^mi 


•  1li»a«iMiealUiwi4li»aweii^ 


.Mt. 


many  of  the  men  assembled  in  that  manner, 
we  could  not  tell  for  what  reason. 

And  because  you  could  not  tell  for  what 
reason,  therefore  you  deemed  it  mutinous?—' 
I  told  the  boatswains  to  go  to  Uiem. 

With  yoiir  advice,  not  your  commands? — 
With  my  advice,  and  that  they  should  answer 
at  their  peril,  if  they  did  not. 

You  have  said,*  that  these  were,  in  the  first 
place,  people  that  were  not  summoned  to  at- 
tend tne  House  ?^-Very  few  of  them  were 
summoned ;  I  believe  the  boatswain  who 
shook  the  cane  over  the  lieutenant-governor's 
head,  and  called  him  an  old  scoundrel,  I  be- 
lieve he  was. 

Did  you  see  him  do  that  ? — ^I  saw  him  flou- 
rish  his  cane  over  his  head,  but  I  did  not  hear 
him  make  use  of  those  words;  there  were 
men  appeared  at  the  council,  that  declared 
they  did  hear  him. 

w  hat  was  Glass  turned  out  for  ? — ^For  be- 
having insolent  to  the  officer  of  the  week ;  he 
was  neither  a  boatswain,  nor  a  boatswsun's 
mate,  he  was  rated  as  a  boatswain's  mate, 
^nd  had  a  boatswain  mate's  lace  for  shewing 
the  Painted-hall ;  he  behaved  insolent  to  the 
lieutenant  of  the  week,  lieutenant  Fortye,  the 
junior  lieutenant  of  the  Hospital.  Many  of 
the  town's  people^  ladies  and  gentlemen,  were 
very  much  surprised ;  I  did  nnt  see  the  inso- 
lent behaviour,  he  behaved  decently  to  me, 
when  I  came  in  afterwards,  and  appeared  at 
council  afterwards.  |ie  behaved  msolent  to 
the  second  chaplain,  the  reverend  Mr.  Maule, 
for  which  he  was  ordered  not  to  attend  at  the 
Painted-hall  any  more,  and  was  to  ask  pardoo 
in  this  elevated  place,  publiclv,  that  all  the 
pensioners  might  see  him,  and  hear  that  he 
asked  pardon  for  the  insult  shewn  to  the  offi- 
cers; he  said  he  would  not;  I  myself  said, 
^  be  persuaded,  you  will  be  your  own  enemy  in 
this,  if  you  refuse  complying  with  the  couiMii's 
sentence ;  you  know  the  result  of  that,  you 
must  be  expelled  the  Hospital."  It  is  a  ge- 
neral rule  with  us,  they  certainly  are,  or  there 
would  be  refusals  every  day.  We  desired  him 
to  go  out  and  consider  of  it ;  he  went  out,  and 
came  in  a  second  time,  and  I  believe  he  went 
out  and  came  in  a  third  time ;  still  he  persist- 
ed that  he  would  not  ask  pardon ;  so  he  ex- 
pelled himself  the  Hospital. 

What  is  this  elevatea  place,  as  you  call  it? 
Is  it  a  greater  disgrace  to  stand  there,  than  to 
ask  paraon  in  any  other  place  ? — I  don't  know 
that  there  can  be  any  disgrace  in  it,  any  more 
than  it  is  more  conspicuous ;  all  the  men  »» 
them  there;  and  perhaps  they  would  wish  for 
but  very  few  of  them  to  see  them  ask  pardon. 
Have  not  you  different  degrees  of  punish- 
ment in  the  Hospital  ?— Mulct ;  confinement ; 
suspensi'm:  expulsion.  We  can  keep  them 
on  a  diet  of  bread  and  water,  when  mcorri- 
gible;  and  expulsion  is  the  last. 

Don't  you  make  them  ask'  pardon  for  timt$ 
sometimes  ? — We  do. 

Is  it  always  in  that  place  that  you  maw 
them  ask  pardon  ?-*Sometime8.    When  it 


1491         retpecHng  the  Royot  tiospUal  ai  Greenwich^        A.  D.  lT7t. 


[450 


kippens  in  the  ward,  we  make  them  ask  |»r- 
don  of  the  parties  at  the  council,  and  ^  up 
mto  that  ward  wh^re  the  insuh  was  pven, 
wA  ask  pardon  there ;  hut  in  the  P«inte4- 
hally  where  the  insult  was  eiven,  it  was,  for 
enmple  sake,  that  he  was  oraered  to  ask  par- 
don in  the  elevated  place. 

Is  it  looked  upon  as  additional  pimishment  f 
—It  is  looked  upon  mora  ^lan  auing  pardcm 
in  the  council-room. 

You  say  captain  BailKe  has  heen  sometimes 
verjr  warm;  can  you  g^ve  any  instance  in 
which  he  has  been  very  warm  at  the  oouncilf 
—Your  lordships  have  been  told  at  your  bar, 
that  the  civil  officers  be^n  &rst  witn  givins 
their  votes,  by  which  means  they  are  callea 
the  leaders,  and  the  rest  fMovr  them.  Now, 
I  believe,  in  all  courts-martial,  the  Junior 
officers  b^in  first ;  it  would  be  absurd  mr  the 
senuMT  to  oe^n ;  he  might  influence  the  ju- 
Bior.  The  junior  begins  first;  but  it  does  not 
iiliow,  that  I  follow  his  opinion,  because  I 
happen  to  coincide  with  his  opinion.  Captain 
BaiUie,  as  president,  ^ould  reserve  his  opi- 
aion  till  the  last ;  he  may  examine,  but  ne 
ihould  not  give  his  opinion  first ;  he  should 
give  others  leave  to  do  it;  'which  he  gene- 
latty  did  not;  but  he  too  often  gave  his  own 

rion  first;  by  which  means,  when  any  of 
juniors  were  giving  their  opinion,  he  en- 
deavoured to  argue  with  them,  and  to  con- 
vince them  that  hb  \ray  of  thinking  was 
better;  by  which  means  the  business  fi^ 
(|uently  was  stopped ;  and  it  might  lead  some^ 
times  to  a  very  great  warmth.  I  should  be 
sorry  to  take  up  much  of  your  lordships'  time ; 
but  in  a  very  tew  words  (as  every  lord  here 
woidd  wish  to  know  the  real  grievances  of 
Greenwich  Hospital)  I  can-^ell  your  lordships 
the  real  grievances  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  if 
you  will  pleiase  to  hear  them. 

Go  on. — Captain  BaiUie  hears  me  now ;  and 
I  would  wbh  rather  he  was  present  to  hear 
me,  than  otherwise.  ^The  real  grievances  in 
Greenwich  Hospital  have  orinnaied  with  cap- 
tain Baillie's  private  qiiarreis  with  some  of 
the  civil  officers,  which  made  him  too  oflen 
blend  private  resentment  with  public  duty;  and 
when  an  officer  differed  in  opinion  from  him. 
hi  was  construed  part  of  the  factbn  of  civil 
influence ;  and,  in  snort,  every  thing  that  was 
had ;  now  it  is  modestly  saying  that  he  was 
the  only  honest  man  of  sense,  capable  o/ 
hiding,  amongst  us  all ;  and  that  we  must  be 
knaves  or  fools  to  be  biassed  by  others,  to  the 
■giiry  of  the  Hospital. 

Do  you  know  of  any  other  instances,  than 
what  you  have  mentioned,  of  captain  Baillie's 
wannth?  I  think  the  instance  which  you 
have  mentioned  is,  that  captain  BaiUie  has 
argued  with  the  junior  officers,  who  were  to 
pve  ^eir  opinion  first — ^To  enter  into  parti- 
culars, that  would  be  a  repetition;  for  at 
many  councils  there  has  been  too  great  a 
Warmth,  and  has  bronght  on  disaCTeeable 
Abates  of  arguments ;  but  never  when  any 
appeared,  where  the  pensioners  were  iiiittreo, 

VOL.  XXI. 


he  never  met  with  any  opposition ;  we  werCs 
unanimous  in  that;  I  only  speak  of  trifling 
things. 

As  you  have  cast  a  eeneral  reflebtion  upon 
captain  BaiUie,  to  say  he  was  very  M^arm  in 
the  council,  and  the  mevances  of  Greenwich 
Hospital  have  proce<SUKl  finom  his  having  pri* 
vate  auarrels  with  other  particular  |iersons,  it 
would  be  doing  him  justice  to  mention  what 
•^ose  particuurs  are. — There  were  two  or 
tliree  of  the  civU  officers  that  he  had  private 
quarrels  with ;  and  I  never  saw,  before  those 
private  quarrels  were,  but  that  every  thing 
went  very  qiuetly;  but  firom  the  opposition 
to  those  particular  people,  that  gave  me  rea- 
son to  think  that  was  the  ^imd  of  it 

I  beg  to  know  the  date  of  those  quarrels? 
—*Some  years  past :  it  was  before  and  afW 
captoin  BaiUie  tras  ueutenant-governor. 

Then  if  it  has  been  before  captain  Bdltie 
was  lieutenant-eovemor,.  I  don't  understand 
you? — He  mi^t  not  have  it  inliis  power  to 
shew  those  pnvate  quarrels,  till  after  he  came 
to  be  lieutenant-governor;  I  am  only  speak-> 
ing  of  what  I  know,  with  regard  to  those  pri- 
vate quarrels;  I  believe  this ;  I  don*t  say  it  is 
fact;  but  I  have  made  th^t  observation ;  and 
I  think  that  is  the  grounds  of  the  grievances 
of  Greenwich  HospttaL 

I  beg  you  will  mention  any  other  instance 
of  capSun  BaiUie's  warmth  m  council ;  yon 
have  only  mentioned  one. — ^He  never  had  any 
witii  me.  The  duty  of  a  naval  officer  in 
Greenwich  Hospital  is  principally  the  good 
government  of  the  pensioners,  and  their  pro- 
tection.  A  naval  officer  has  no  business  to 
go  into  the  office  of  a  civil  officer.  I  suppose 
every  man  of  trust  wiU  act  like  an  honest 
num.  If  the  pensioners  come  with  com- 
plaints, you  will  attend  to  them ;  but  are  not 
to  go  to  search  into  things,  and  suspect  people 
of  frauds  without  grounds. 

Do  you  know  any  instances  of  captain 
BaiUie's  searchins  for  frauds,  without  having 
them  complaiaedof  ? — ^I  was  in  the  Hospitu 
many  years  after  Mr.  BeU,*  who  was  in  the 
Hospital  above  forty  years ;  rM>  miUtary  o^ 
ficer  ever  presomed  to  go  into  the  kitcnen; 
it  was  his  indispensible  duty  to  receive  the 
meat,  see  it  cut  up,  and  delivered  to  the 
cook,  who  locks  it  up.  The  naval  officer  is  to 
go  into  the  dining-teiU  when  the  bell  ring^ 
and  the  men  are  assembled ;  if  the  meat  ap^ 
pears  unproper,  then  I  am  to  take  notice  of  it; 
I  am  not  to  eo  into  the  kitchen,  and  see  if  the 
civil  officer  noes  lus  duty,  and  suspect  Inm  td 
be  a  rascal :  no ;  if  he,  the  civil  officer,  has 
any  doubt,  he  sends  for  the  officer  of  the 
week  to  go  in  and  assist  him;  it  is  not  my 
duty  to  go  there  without;  ^||^  every  man  of 
integrity  would  be  hurt  by  it  very  much;  I 
sbomd  think  it  very  wrong,  and  resent  it,  if  a 
civil  officer  came  into  the' dining  room  to  see 
if  things  were  neht. 

Then  one  of  the  great  grounds  against  cap^  * 


%  G 


A  forner  good  stvwanit    OHg.  Ei* 


451] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaUUe,         [45S 


tain  Baillie  is,  he  has  been  very  officious  in 
Igokino;  into  the  meat? — I  was  asked  what 
grounas  I  had  for  supposing  (juarrels  with  the 
civil  officers  the  grounds  of  it  ^  I  mentioned 
this  as  what  I  thought  the  ground ;  he  en- 
courages others  to  go  and  see  whether  this  or 
that  man  is  a  rascal  or  not ;  which  I  should 
not  think  he  would  do,  unless  he  had  a 
quarrel  with  them. 

Then  it  has  been  his  inspecting  into  things, 
to  see  if  there  were  any  frauds  or  not  ? — In  an 
improper  manner. 

W  bat  do  you  call  an  improper  manner  ? — ^It 
is  an  improper  manner  for  me  to  go  into  any 
man's  office,  who  has  a  trust,  to  see  whether 
he  acts  properly  or  no,  when  I  have  no  busi- 
jiess  so  to  do. 

Then  you  don't  think  it  is  the  duty  of  the 
lieutenant-governor  to  see  whether  the  of- 
ficers in  the  Hospital  do  thdr  duty? — Every 
officer  of  the  Hospital  is  to  take  notice  of 
every  fraud  that  he  knows  of;  then  they  are 
to  be  brought  before  the  council ;  they  are 
not  to  be  made  private  memorandums  of  at 
home,  but  to  be  brought  to  the  light,  and  rec- 
tified immediately. 

I  understimd  you,  that  the  cause  of  quarrel 
between  captain  Baillie  and  the  civil  officers 
of  the  Hospital  was,  that  captain  Baillie 
had  enouiredj  in  an  improper  way,  into  the 
meat?— 'Not  particularly  that;  but,  in  gene- 
i;al^  his  private  quarrels  with  some  of  the  civil 
officers,  I  believed,  was  the  general  cause  of 
the  disturbances  in  Greenwich  Hospital. 

I  desired  an  instance,  and  did  not  you  men- 
tion that  he  had  particularly  examined,  in  an 
improper  manner,  into  the  meat?— Yes. 

Give  an  instance  of  that — I  have  known  a 
capUin  or  lieutenant  of  the  week  go  into  the 
kitchen  when  the  meat  has  come  in,  examine 
the  meat,  and,  before  the  civil  officer  has  der 
termined  one  way  or  other,  '  That  meat  is 
not  proper ;  I  desire  that  meat  may  be  sent 
away.'  He  might  have  gone  in  and  looked 
at  it^  but  not  have  given  any  orders ;  he  had 
Jio  right  to  give  any  orders  about  it ;  it  is  the 
civil  officer's  duty  to  take  notice  of  that ;  and 
if  he  found  he  did  not  report  it,  then  take  no- 
tice of  him;  but  not  before  he  found  what 
his  report  should  be. 

Then  the  cause  of  this  is,  that  captain 
Baillie  has  expressed  hunself,  that  the  meat 
was  bad,  when  he  saw  it  such? — Hiey  have 
no  right  to  examine  tHe  meat  before  it  is 
boiled;  not  a  naval  officer,  without  he  is  call- 
ed in  by  the  steward  and  the  clerk  of  the 
cheque. 

That  is  your  opinion  ?— We  are  directed, 
hy  the  kiu^s  commission,  not  to  interfere 
with  any  thmg,  only  the  government  of  the 

And  you  don't  reckon  it  a  part  of  the  good 

government  of  the  Hospital,  to  see  whether 
iie  meat  is  good  or  badr — Certainly,  when  it 
comes  into  the  hall. 

.  It  seems  captain  Baillie  has  been  too  offi- 
cious in  enquiring  into  this  matter?— Not 
IO«rely  thai. 


What  then?-— What  have  I  charged  him 
with? 

I  can't  find  that  out;  tell  the  committee 
what  you  do  charge  hiin  with. — With  being 
very  passionate  and  overbearing  in  council ; 
and  with  interfering  in  the  private  officers^ 
duty  in  points  he  had  no  right  to  do ;  such  as 
officers  going  into  the  kitchen,  who  had  no  ' 
right  to  go  in  there,  to  examine  the  meat  be- 
fore it  was  boiled.f 

Do  you  know  of  any  instance  in  iniiich 
captain  BaiHie  has  behaved  ill  to  the  pension- 
ers?— ^In  what  respect  does  your  lordsbip 
mean? 

I  ask  if  you  know  any  ? — ^I  think  by  caus- 
ing a  confusion  and  disturbance  in  tiie  Hos- 
piSil,  and  setting  them  by  the  ears  together ; 
and  making  the  men,  in  general,  beUeve  thej 
have  been  fed  upon  bull  beef,  and  that  it 
would  be  continueid  so ;  and  that  there  woe 
frauds  continually  exhibited  against  them: 
this  is  inflaming  their  minds,  keeping  them 
in  hot  water,  and  making  them  unhappy. 

These  are  general  charges:  give  am  in- 
stance.— When  the  committee  was  sitting,  he 
came  out  from  the  committee  b6ard;  the 
words  I  cannot  recollect ;  but  they  were  re- 
peated loud  enough  for  any  body  to  hear  ; 
that  the  lame  and  the  blind  (I  beg  your  lord- 
ships' pardon,  he  made  use  of  an  oath)  that 
there  would  be  no  redress  for  them.'  This  is 
making  a  very  bad  impression  upon  the 
minds  of  the  pensioners,  and  must  make  them 
very  unhappy  to  think  that  they  should  have 
no  redress.    ^ 

That  was  in  consequence  of  the  examina- 
tion ? — ^It  was,  I  believe. 

Were  you  present  at  that  examination  ? — 
I  was  hot  at  that  time ;  I  was  called  when 
the  council  wfts  called  before  the  board;  I 
was  one  of  them. 

Was  this  addressed  to  the  lame  and  the 
blind  only,  or  in  general  to  the  pensioners  ? 
— In  general,  in  coming  out ;  but  I  must  bc^ 
to  observe  to  your  lordships,  I  did  not  hear  it 
myself. 

Can  you  speak  to  any  other  act  in  which 
captain  Baillie  has  ever  told  the  pensioners 
thatthev  must  expect  to  be  fed  with  bull 
beef  and  sour  small  beer  ? — I  don't  know  of 
any. 

Do  you  know  any  instance  of  his  haying 
done  any  injury  to  tne  pensioners  .^~-I  do  not. 

Do  you  know  any  instance  of  his  having 
struck  a  pensioner? — Ifo. 

Do  you  know  any  instance  of  any  other 
officer  having  struck  a  pensioner  ?'^Not 
of  m^  own  knowledge;  tnere  is  little  of 
that  m  Greenwich  Hospital;  in  the  course  of 
twenty  years  I  don't  tnink  it  has  happened 
twice. 

Did  you  ever  know  captain  Baillie  m  liquor  f 
— Wever. 

Has  he  constantly  attended  since  he  has 
been    lieutenant-governor  ? — Constantly :    I 


t  After  it  is  beil«d»  there  can  be  no  re4 
m«D,  be  it  trer  so  bad.    Orig,  Ed^ 


&rth* 


455]         regpeethg  the  Ro^  Hoqntal  at  Greentoich.         A.D.  1778. 


454 


believe  as  much  so  as  any  lieutenant-go- 
▼emor. 

.  Has  he  made  it  his  business  to  take  care  of 
the  pensioners?* -Nof  more  than  other  of- 
ficers; he  can  do  nothing  of  himself;  it  is 
the  coimdl. 

Has  he  done  any  thing  to  injure  the  pen- 
soners  ? — Nothing  more  than  the  impression 
that  has  been  made  upon  their  minds ;  I  don't 
contradict  that. 

Is  lie  looked  upon  by  the  pensioners  as 
th^  friend? — ^I  believe  that  he  has  been 
lately,  since  the  book  has  been  published, 
kioked  upon  to  be  particularly  so,  because  he 
has  risked  his  all,  I  believe,  ior  tiieir  sake. 

Hie  opinion  of  the  pensioners,  in  general, 
is,  that  ne  has  been  tneir  fHend  ? — ^I  cannot 
say  in  genera} ;  I  do  not  converse  with  the 
men  ;  only  when  we  come  to  council  we  hear 
tiiem. 

I  ask  as  to  the  general  opinion  ? — I  don't 
know  as  to  that. 

Do  you  know  of  any  one  instance  in  which 
captain  Baillie  has  ever  misbehaved  to  any 
pensioner?"!  don't  know,  with  respect  to 
any  single  pensioner :  I  only  know  the  ge- 
necal  impressions  made  upon  the  pensioners. 

Viscount  Ihidley.  You  mentioned  a  drain 
that  runs  under  your  apartments;  was  not 
there  an  old  drain  that  ran  under  your  apart- 
ment, and  some  of  the  cabins  belonging  to 
tiie  pensioners,  before  you  came  into  Uiat 
office  you  are  now  in  ?— ^.  The  same  drain 
remains  now ;  it  is  a  water  drun,  it  conveys 
the  water  from  the  top  of  the  house,  it  is  a 
lai^  barrel,  and  this  drain  is  let  into  that; 
that  is  the  thing,^it  has  not  been  a  new  drain, 
or  a  new  barrel. 

Duke  of  BoUon.  Whether  the  officers  have 
not  all  of  them  a  set  of  instructions  relative  to 
theirconductin  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — A,  We 
have  instructions  to  be  {[uided  by,  not  rela- 
tive to  oiir  conduct,  but  it  is  to  regulate  the 
pcasioners'  conduct 

But  have  the  officers  no  instructions? — 
These  are  instructions  given  us  bv  the  ge- 
neral court  confirmed  by  theAdmiralty,  which 
instructions  we  go  by  with  regard  to  the  re- 
gulari^  of  the  pensioners,  and  the  punish- 
ment that  is  inflicted  upon  them ;  sometimes,- 
m  little  points,  it  is  len  to  the  n^jority  of  the 
oeunctl,  what  they  think  right. 

Are  there  no  Lustiuctions  to  obey  the 
oidov  of  the  governor,  and  the  lieutenant- 
govemor  ? — There  are  snch  instructions. 

Have  you  such  orders  ? — ^I  have. 

How  &r  do  you  think  those  orders  reach  ? 
— The  naval  officers  of  Greenwich  Hospital 
are  set  down  in  that  royal  asylum,  for  their 
past  services;  the  civil  officers,  for  what  is 
eqiected  from  them,  they, are  supposed  tP  be 
active  men,  capable  of  doing  tneir  duty>  or 
they  are  imfit;  the  naval  officers ;  if  I  am  not 
able  u>  come  out  of  my  apartment,  the  go- 
vernor, or  lieutenant^overnor,  cannot  com- 
pel me  to  it ;  the  civu  officers  are  paid,  for 
what  is  expected-from  them    they  are  sup- 


posed not  to  be  feeble  men,  but  men  capable 
of  doing  their  dutv. 

But  Task,  if  there  are  not  instructions  to 
obey  the  lieutenant-governor  ? — ^Yes. 

Then,  if  the  lieutenant-governor  orders  you 
to  inspect  the  meat,  are  not  you  bound  to  do 
it? — ^I  should  desire  liim  to  give  me  a  written 
order,  if  l^e  desired  me  to  do  any  thin^  I 
thought  not  my  duty,  to  justify  me  for  domg 
an  unwarrantable  thmg. 

Did  you  ever  know  an  instance  of  a  written 
order  being  given  in  the  Hospital  to  you, 
from  the  governor  or  lieutenant-governor,  to 
do  your  duty  ? — I  never  was  desired  to  do  any 
thing  improper  by  either  of  them;  captain 
Bailue  never  set  me  upon  such  a  thing  as 
that  in  his  life ;  if  he  had  I  would  say,  I  will 
obey  you,  if  you  will  give  me  a  written  onler;' 
but  I  think  this  is  not  a  naval  officer's  duty. 

You  don't  know  of  any  written  order  bemg^ 
given  ? — ^No. 

Did  you  ever  inspect  the  meat,  by  the  order 
of  the  lieutenant-governor?—!  never  did ;  I 
recollect  when  the  steward  and  the  clerk  of 
the  cheque  Imve  sent  to  me,  I  have  gone  there 
with  the  captain  of  the  week ;  we liave  con- 
demned meat,  and  sent  away  that  which  was 
not  agreeable  to  the  contract;  and  several 
times  we  have  sent  to  market  for  the  best 
meat  that  we  coidd  get ;  but  sonietimes  the 
meat  has  appeared  very  fair  to  the  eye ;  some 
that  appeared  to  be  bull  beef  wfis  as  fair  to 
the  eye  as  could  be ;  when  it  was  boiled,  it 
turned  out  to  be  bull  beef;  it  would  have  de- 
ceive a  butcher ;  we  must  have  been  rascals 
to  have  done  it  designedly. 

I  ask  .you,  whether  you  have  not,  by  the 
orders  of  the  lieutenaotrgovemor,  cone  and. 
inspected  the  meat  ? — ^I  cannot  recollect  that 
I  ever  received  any  particular  orders  from  the 
lieutenant-governor;  I  have  eone  in  conse- 
quence of  the  civil  officers  sending. 

Have  you  heard  of  any  other  naval  officers 

foing  by  order  of  the  lieutenant-governor  ? — 
have. 

But  had  they  any  written  order  ?— If  the 
thing  had  been  wrong,  a  written  order  would 
not  make  it  right. 

But  you  never  knew  of  their  having  a 
written  order? — ^No. 

You  have  talked  of  a  memorial  that  was 
brought  to  the  military  council  of  the  House. 
-^We  looked  upon  ourselves,  till  of  late  years, 
civilians ;  we  are  kept  upon  the  list  that  we 
might  have  the  half-pay,  but  we  are  all  su- 
perannuated in  Greenwich  Hospital. 

But  whether  the  council  of  the  house 
has  not  been  called  the  military  council? — 
There  is  but  one  council. . 

But  is  that  called  a  military  council  ? — It  is 
often  called  so  by  pensioners,  and  many 
others,  but  we  call  it  a  council. 

Have  you  read  the  commission  ? — I  have. 

Do  you  remember  whether  it  is*  there 
called  a  miUtary  council? — ^I  don't  recollect 
particularly. 

With  regard  to  that  memorial  which  was 


4S5J 


la  GCOROE  m.         The  Gate  rfCtfbum  Thiima$Buaie^         [466 


btiou^  to  the  couodi  bowd,  ctmiidaiiiiiig  of 
captain  Baillie  when  fa^  .was  tieuienanl^^ 
▼emor,  which  of  the  chaplams  was  it  that 
brought  that  memorial  forth?— Neither  of 
them. 

Who  brou^t  it?— The  present  lieutenant* 
govemory  captain  Maplesden,  I  remember 
perfectly  wel^  pulled  it  out  of  his  bosom  at 
council.  \ 

Was  there  a  majority  of  militaiy  officers  at 
that  time  present  ?^Certunly  a  great  one,  I 
think. 

Was  there  a  majority  of  military  officers, 
ior  presenting  the  memorial,  or  not?— There 
was  a  majority  of  mihtaiy  at  the  council. 

Do  you  remember  how  manv  military  of- 
ficers were  at  the  council  ?— The  books  ^1 
%dl. 

You  don't  remember  particularly,  that  there 
was  a  majority  of  military  officers,  at  Uie 
council,  against  the  memorial  ?— I  will  repeat 
them  if  I  cui ;  captain  Baillie  did  endeavour 
to  persuade  some  not  to  sign  it;  I  will  toll 
your  lordships  who  were  the  officers  that  did 
not  sign  it;  captain  AllwrishL  lieutenant 
Kerr,  lieutenant  Ansell, and,  ibelieve,  lieute- 
Bant  Lefevre,  but  I  am  not  certain  whether 
he  was  there  or  no,  if  he  was,  that  makes 
ibur;  lieutenant  Kerr  is  here  now.  There 
were  the  present-  lieutonant-governor,  cap- 
tain Lynn,  captain  Chads,  lieutenant  M oyi^ 
and  myself;  five  military  officers  that  did 
nniit. 

Then  you  were  five  to  four  ?— I  don't  recol- 
lect any  more  naval  officers;  I  remembm' 
lieutenant  Kerr  said,  he  did  not  Imow  what 
to  do;  he  seemed  very  much  ^tated ;  I  said, 
everv  one  must  judge  for  hhnseif. 

Who  were  the  civil  officers  that  were  pre- 
sent?—-The  memorial  is  upon  your  lord^ips' 
table ;  I  really  cannot  recollect  all  of  them. 

With  regard  to  what  you  have  termed  riots, 
what  is  the  rule  in  Greenwich  flospit^.  about 
the  peAsk>ner8  being  absent  ?  What  tmie  of 
day  are  they  allowed  to  be  absent?  And 
where  do  they  go  ?— We  have  got  a  ^y-book, 
and  a  ni^ht  bocSc ;  no  man  i6  to  absent  him- 
self, bjr  the  rules  of  the  house,  without  leave ; 
there  is  a  muster  every  day  in  the  week,  ex- 
cept one ;  every  man  is  to  attend  his  muster. 

What  time  is  the  muster  ?— About  twelve 
o'clock. 

From  twelve  o'clock,  what  time  have  they 
leave  of  absence  ?— They  must  be  in  the  gates 
by  ten  o'clock;  they  have  leave  of  absence, 
when  it  does  not  interfere  with  their  duty. 

What  duty  ?— There  b  guard  duty,  ana  sen* 
tiy  duty. 

They  have  leave  of  absence  to  go  where 
they  please  ? — ^Yes  ;  but  those  men  who  were 
at  your  lordships' door,  were  here  at  eleven 
o'clock  in  the  morning;  they  should  hi^ve 
been  at  Greenwich  Hospital  at  twelve  o'clock, 
to  alteud  their  muster. 

You  have  said,  that  all  compliunts,  made 
by  any  officers,  ought  to  be  earned  directly  to 
the  council,  and  immediately  taken  notice  of? 


-*-There  is  a  ooMplaini4KMi:,  in  which  the 
complaints  are  put  down  every  day,  the  ooow 
mon  complaints  of  quarrels  bcakween  pen- 
sioners, and  neglect  of  duty ;  but  where  tiia 
pensioners  seem  to  be  aggrieved,  and  want 
immediate  redress,  it  is  the  duty  of  the  persoa 
who  knows  that,  to  acquaint  tfa!e  commanding 
officer  upon  the  spot,  who  has  a  power  to  cw 
a  council,  and  lay  the  matter  berore  them  as 
soon  as  possible. 

Were  you  present,  perhaps  a  day,  or  two 
days,  before  the  late  fire,  when  lieutenant 
Kerr  came  to  council  and  complained  of  the 
dancer  of  fire  in  the  taylors'  room  ?— I  don't 
recculect  lieutenant  Kerr,  or  any  other  person^ 
making  any  complaint  in  Greenwich  Hospital 
of  danger  by  fire. 

Before  the  fire  besan  ?'-It  was  not  done,  I 
will  venture  to  say,  by  any  officers  as  araaiter 
laid  before  the  council ;  it  might  be  mention- 
ed  in  conversation. 

In  what  manner  was  it  mentioned  ?— As  fiur 
as  I  understsnd  4t  was  mentioned,  that  the 
taylors'  room,  th^  wbhed  it  was  removed  \ 
or  something  of  that  sort 

When  was  that  ? — I  was  not  present;  if  I 
was,  I  did  not  attend  to  it;  I  heard  that  socb 
a  thing  had  been  mentioned. 

Were  you  at  the  council  when  thera  was  % 
reference  made  to  it  fimn  the  board  of  direc- 
tors, touching  the  allowance  made  tothe  men 
in  money,  some  years  ago>  instead  of  meat^ 
— ^Does  your  lordship  mean  the  chalk-off  liaty 
or  the  butler's  list  ? 

Both  were  mentioned* — ^I  cannot  ^Mak  wk 
tttively  tothat;  I  do  not  recoUecS  that ;  tot 
I  know,  in  regard  to  the  biitiei's  hst,  and 
chalk-off  list  in  particular,  I  have  had  coin» 
plaints  in  the  hall  made  to  me,  in  nydkity 
week ;  but  the  complaint  has  been,  that  the' 
butler  gave  them  provisions  instead  of  chalk- 
ing them  off,  when  it  was  tlioir  pfopertiira  lo 
be  chalked  off,  and  diey  looked  upon/it  as  » 
hardship  to  be  obliged  to  take  the  prsivaioaa;; 
that  I  remember  more  than  onoe  or  twice. 

But  dD  you  remember  having  faeen  at  eoun- 
oil  when  tiie  chalk-off  list  was  icynssnted  1^ 
the  council,  to  the  board  of  directon,  to  lie 
abolished?— I  recollect  I  saw  at  that  time, 
kad  at  that  veiy  time  that  it  was  done;  I 
looked  upon  it  as  a  thing  that  was  neoeanry, 
but  aAer  that  we  re-tonsidprad  it,  and  we 
fotmd  that  there  were  very  many  dcs^mn^ 
sober,  worthy  fellows,  in  me.  Hospilsi,  wbe 
had  families ;  and  by  letting  them  be  chrifced 
off,  they  could  In^  with  this  inonqr»  wffiBient 
to  support  a  wife  and  two  or  three  childnn, 
when  a  small  allowance  would  not ;  it  wea* 
in  considerslion  of  that,  that  I  allsrod  mf 
opinion. 

'   Did  the  council  take  any  steaa  in  eonse* 
quence  of  that,  to  signify  to  tne  dneeton^ 
that  they  bad  altered  &eir  opinkD?-— It 
not  mentioned  to  the  diractocs,  but  that 
my  private  opinion. 

But  did  tro  court  of  dirsctois  take  any 
tioe  of  that  which  was  a  unsnimont  xemnce 


497]         rmpedmg  ik€  Scyol  Hc^al  ai  Gretrmch.        A.  D.  1778. 


[458 


to  Ibam  fiotf  te  oMiacil  ?-:-I  believe  Unqt  did 
cmnine  into  it,  and  found  it  would  be  pro- 
ductive of  ill  cemeijuenceBy  that  they  did  not 
at  first  foresee. 

Did  the  boud  of  directors  take  any  notice 
of  it?'-^Tbe  governor  and  lieutenant  gover- 
nor,  the  treasurer,  rad  the  auditor  bekn^ing 
to  the  boaid  of  directois^  they  might  tell  it  to 
them. 

Do  you  know  that  they  did)— I  do  not 
know  that  tiiey  did. 

Did  they  oomply  with  the  unanimous  re- 
commendation or  the  council  ? — ^l  did  not  hear 
that  there  was  any  aherstion. 

You  must  know  whether  there  was  or  not? 
^-I  bdieve  not;  and  that  because  it  was  in 
consideration  of  being  of  service  to  many  de- 
serving gttwn  and  their  faimlies* 

Was  the  unanimous  request  of  the  eoundl 
conaplied  with  by  the  court  of  directors  ? — ^I 
believe  not 

Was  any  reason  given  why  they  did  not 
comply  wfth  it  ? — ^In  private  it  was  mention- 
cdy  but  not  in  a  formal  manner  to  the  council. 

lieutenant  Mqyle  called  in  by  Lord  Sandwich. 

Q.  Lords  Dudky  aad  Chettafield.  Whe- 
ther  you  weie  present  at  the  measurement  of 
the  linen  ? — ^I  was. 

How  did  you  proceed  in  taking  such  mea- 
surement?—-There  was  a  stan<£rd  of  the 
kni^  thai  was  proposed  by  the  hoase,  it  was 
orii^maUyso;  one  kmg  sticky*  snd  at  one  end 
of  It,  it  was  marked  a  quarter  of  a  yard,  a  nail, 
and  a  half  nul ;  and  there  was  one  person 
stood  at  one  end ;  captain  Chadds  was  at  one 
end,  I  was  at  the  other. 

How  many  years  have  you  been  in  the 
Hospital? — ^Above  SO. 

Dal  ^ott  ever  hear  the  men  oompfaun  of 
their  shuto  or  sheets  ?—- Never  that  I  neard. 

Does  the  present  steward,  Godby,  exercise 
bis  office  duly?— -I  think  he  does;  he  fre- 
quently has  called  upon  me  as  an  dd  officer, 
to  advae  with  me;  my  apartment  is  cloas  to 
liis  office. 

Is  theie  any  occuion  of  complaint  against 
him  ? — ^I  neevcr  conceived  that  then  was. 

Duke  of  Biekmmd,  Whether  yon  have 
had  any  additions  nnde  to  your  apartments 
witfaiB  theae  few  years  ?*-Certatniy. 

What  are  tbey?'*-A  snail  parlour^  end  a 
bed  room. 

Haa  not  yoivkitohen  been  enlarged  ?-*Yes. 

Have  not  the  walls  been  removed  fr«n 
their  fbundatiens,  in  order  to  midce  i^  l— 
None. 

Has  not  there  been  a  par^-^wall  removed? 
— lliere  was  a  pfauster  wall,  but  it  had  no 
connection  with  an^r  foundation-wall. 

Is  yours  a  large  latchen? — It  is  a  very  good 
kitefaBD:  befere  it  was  enlarged,  it  was  but 

^IVs  isa  mtm  mode  of  meunriDr  Knen,  witb  « 
l«ag  pole  or  iCiA,  two  ytrdt  end  tm  half  loiig,  wilii 
a  penoB  el  sidi  ari  Mretoyar  oat  the  ihMU,  dec— 


seven  feet  wide ;  and  I  ha^  a  fiunily  then,  of 
seven  childreD. 

Is  there  any  kitchen  in  the  Hoft{ntal  largel" 
than  yours? — 1  don't  know;  yes,  I  believe 
there  is. 

Uow  many?— I  speak  only  by  guess,  I 
never  measured  any  of  them;  I  believe  there 
may  be  two. 

Which  are  they  ? — I  believe  the  lieutenants 
governor's,  but  I  am  not  certain,  I  never  mea- 
sured it;  nor  I  donH  know  that  I  have  been 
in  it  since  it  has  been  his  apartment. 

Are  you  sure  that  your  kitchen  is  not  so 
large  as  the  lieutenant  governor's  ? — I  don't 
know  that  I  was  ever  in  it  but  once  in  my 
life,  and  that  is  20  years  ago. 

What  do  you  guess  alMiUt  it? — ^I  cannot 
guess;  I  am  at  your  lordships'  bar  upon  my 
oath. 

Do  you  know  whether  th^e  have  been 
anv  s^fiiring  men  introduced  into  what  is 
called  the  civil  establishment,  within  these 
last  seven  years? — I  recollect  that  Uierewaa 
a  cook's  mate  made  from  one  of  the  pei^ 
sioners ;  a  man  behaved  with  great  iuteority 
in  the  lutchen,  when  he  was  au  underimg; 
and  for  that  reason  he  was  made  a  mato 
when  there  vrais  a  vacancy ;  he  wasappointod^ 
I  believe  at  the  recommendation  ot  captain 
Bailhe;  I  think  I  have  heard  so ;  but  I  don't 
speak  positively  to  that. 

Were  vou  present  at  the  council  that  voted 
to  abolish  the  chalk-oil  list,  and  to  recom* 
mend  it  to  the  court  of  directors  to  abolish  it? 
— I  believe  I  was  at  the  council ;  but  whe- 
ther the  minuto  was  in  that  nature,  I  cannot 
say;  I  think  it  rather  a  retereuce  from  the 
bcMurd  of  directors  to  the  council,  for  their  opi* 
nion,  with  regard  to  the  utility. 

Do  you  recollect  whether  th^  did  not  re* 
commend  in  consequence  of  that  reference, 
that  the  chalk-off  list  should  be  abolished  ?— ^ 
I  believe  they  did. 

Do  you  recollect  whether  that  recommeA^ 
dation  was  unanimous? — I  cannot  recollect, 
it  is  a  good  while  ago.  In  triHing  maUera  I 
have  many  times  observed  it,  in  gentkmcm 
whose  conversation  upon  the  points  have 
been  different  to  their  views,  they  have  giveif 
into  it  at  last,  because  the)r  have  seen,  that 
there  has  been  a  great  m^yorit^  in  favour  ofi 
them ;  and  they  were  not  willing  to  enter 
into  disputes,  or  to  make  a  difiereiice  in  tbe^ 
council,  but  to  give  it  up ;  and  1  believe  thai 
I  was  one  of  thme,  f  irom  an  observatk>a>  tha^ 
from  a  long  time  that  I  have  been  in  tba 
Hospilal,  I  nave  known  the  peneioners;  who 
ma^y  of  them  have  wives  and  families,  ha;re 
solicited  to  be  on  that  list,  on  account  of  as- 
sistiag  their  fieuniliea ;  that  inthe  winter  time^ 
they  could  with  the  money  th^  sold  their 
sieat  for  to  the  butler,  they  could  make  a 
mess  with  the  broth,  to  supply  their  &-* 
miUes. 

Is  it  the  practice  of  the  clerk  of  the  coiii>- 
eil,  to  set  down,  that  it  is  the  unanimous  re- 
commffldation,  when  any  body  diiiers?— I 


459] 


18  GEORGE  IIL  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas 


[460 


believe  not ;  it  then  says,  I  believe,  by  a  ma- 
joritv. 

Then  if  that  recommendation  is  said  to  be 
unanimous  in  the  council  books,  do  you  ima- 
gine or  not,  that  it  was  unanimous  ? — I  have 
mentioned  the  reason  with  respect  to  myself; 
I  can  answer  for  no  one  but  myself; 
I  did  consent  to  that^  though  at  the  same 
time  I  thought  it  was  better  as  it  was. 

And  yet  did  you  consent  to  have  it  set 
down  unanimously,  that  it  was  your  opinion 
when  it  was  not  ? — ^I  did ;  and  have,  in  man^ 
instances,  without  anv  dishonour  or  discredit 
to  mvselT,  I  think ;  when  I  have  seen  that  a 
number  of  gentlemen  were  of  opinion  different 
from  what  I  have  been  arguing  for,  I  have 
acquiesced  for  the  sake  of  quietness  and  peace, 
not  to  make  uneasiness  in  the  council,  where 
the  point  is  not  of  any  consequence ;  and  in 
this  case  there  waff  a  great  majority,  and  I 
went  with  the  tide,  to  speak  ^as  a  seaman. 

Do  you  frequently  give  up  your  opinion 
when  you  find  there  is  a  ms^jority  f— Not  al- 
ways. 

Do  you  submit  to  its  being  set  down,  that 
it  is  your  opinion,  when  the  thing  is  contrary 
to  your  opinion  ? — I  have  answered  that  al- 
ready, ana  can  only  give  the  same  answer  ; 
where  I  have  in  many  cases  seen  a  number 
of  gentlemen  that  were  of  a  different  opinion 
from  mine,  and  where  the  thing  has  been  of 
a  trifling  nature,  I  have  given  up  my  opinion; 
I  have  said,  let  it  go  as  vou  please. 

Then  how  is  it  possible  for  the  court  of  di- 
rectors, to  whom  you  made  that  recommen- 
dation, to  know  whether  it  was  the  unani- 
mous opinion  of  the  council,  or  not  ? — ^Fhere 
were,  I  oeiieve,  a  great  number  of  gentlemen 
that  signed  it;  I  do  not  recollect  the  exact 
particulars,  it  is  a  great- while  ago;  if  it 
IS  thouojlit  even  a  fault  in  me,  I  do  not  mean 
to  hide  It  from  the  committee  ;  in  the  mode  I 
have  acted,  I  do  not  feel  myself  ashamed 
of  it. 

Who  is  the  fourth  captain  of  Greenwich 
Hospital?— I  cannot  say;  I  have  hever  seen 
him,  I  believe. 

What  is  his  name  \ — I  do  not  know,  as  he 
has  never  been  among  us. 

Is  it  captain  Cook  r — I  think  it  is  not,  I 
only  speak  upon  hearsay,  I  don't  say  positive- 
ly; there  has  been  no  captain  appeared  since 
captain  Maplesden  was  appointea  lieutenant- 
governor,  which  made  a  rise  up  of  the  cap- 
tains, I  have  never  seen  any  person  that  I  re- 
collect 

Did  you  never  understand  that  captain 
Chadds  was  under  an  obligation  to  give  up 
his  station  in  the  Hospital,  if  Mr.  Cook  re- 
turned ? — I  have  heard  that  in  conversation, 
but  can  say  nothing  certain  as  to  tiiat. 

You  do  not  know  any  thing  of  captain 
Cook^s  having  resigned  to  captain  Chadds 
upon  that  condition  r—I  know  nothing  about 
that 

When  you  were  present  at  thcrineasunng 
of  the  JineQ|  you  said  you  stood  at  one  end  of 


the  measure,  and  captain  Maplesden  at  the 
other ;  did  you,  upon  that  measuring,  find  all 
the  linen  to  be  of  the  regular  standsffd  of  the 
Hospital  ? — ^No,  certainly  not,  I  did  not  ex- 
pect to  find  it ;  but  if  your  ioidships  will  per- 
mit me  to  refer  to  a  note,  which  I  took  at 
the  time,  I  will  acquaint  your  lordships  how  I 
found  the  measurement,,  \y%90  sheets  that  I 
was  at  the  measurement  of  myself,  and  then 
I  signed  a  paper,  which  is,  I  believe,  before 
your  lordships,  with  respect  to  it,  I  have  a 
note,  I  put  in  my  book  at  the  time,  that  I 
cannot  without  looking  at  that  be  particular. 

Look  at  your  notes. — (Refers  to  his  notes.) 
On  March  the  27th,  and  the  99tb,  1779,  Mr. 
Godby  called  on  me,  and  b^^  it  as  a  ^ 
vour,  that  I  would  go  with  caption  Chadds  and 
captain  Lynn,  himself  and  the  clerk  of  the 
cheque,  to  measure  some  linen ;  I  saw  mea- 
sured 1,990  sheets,  there  were  60,  one  nail 
over  the  standard ;  ten,  two  nails  over  the 
standard ;  one,  a  quarter  of  a  yard  over  the 
standard,  6U  were  agreeable  to  the  standard  ; 
395,  one  nail  under  the  standard;  168,  two 
nails  under  the  standard;  35  were  three  naUs 
under  the  standard ;  six,  four  nails  under  the 
standard,  making  in  the  whole,  1,990. 

Were  any  of  the  shirts  measured  at  the 
same  time  ? — ^Yes ;  I  was  at  the  measuring  of 
500  shirts ;  I  believe  it  was  the  next  day ;  the 
standard  length  of  the  shirts,  I  understand  to 
be  one  yard,  a  nail  and  a  lialf,  there  were  298 
agreeable  to  the  standard;  S06,  were  half  a 
nail  under  the  standard;  58,  one  nail  and  a 
half  under  the  standard ;  eight,  two  nails  and 
a  half  under  the  standard,  that  made  up 
500. 

Were  there  any  over  the  standard  ?— There 
were  not 

Have  you  ever  been  present  at  the  measur- 
ing any  linen,  in  any  former  year  i — No ;  I 
never  was  called  upon ;  I  was  asiBsdupoa  this 
occasion ;  we  went  to  various  parts  of  the 
Hospital,  we  went  to  the  infirmary  tto  both* 
the  matrons^  depositories,  where  they  kept  the 
linen,  where  they  took  them  down  proini»^ 
cuously,  and  capidn  Lynn,  who  was  one  of 
the  gentlemen  tnat  was  with  us,  he  acted  as 
secretary,  as  a  cheque  upon  the  other,  and 
one  of  Mr.  Godby*s  clerks  at  the  other 
table  took  down,  and  when  they  had  done,  it  ' 
was  in  our  presence  summed  up  and  compar- 
ed, whether  they  were  right  or  not,  and  what 
I  have  read  to  your  lonuhips  is  the  result  of 
the  examination. 

Were  theV  new  shirts  or  old? — Old  shirts. 

You  say  tne  standard  is  one  yard,  one  mul 
and  an  half? — ^I  think  so. 

When  you  say  the  word  standard,  that  I 
understand  to  be  a  good  standard  measure  for 
a  middle  sised  man,  or  a  tolerable  sixed  man  ? 
— I  understand  it  to  be  the  measure  that  has 
always  been  allowed. 

Do, not  you  apprehend,  there  requires  nrare 
or  less,  according  to  the  tallness  and  size  of 
the  men? — There  is  likewise  extraordinary 
shirts  iJlowed;  where  there  is  a  greater  quaiK 


461]         rapeeUug  tie  Royal  Hotpitai  at  Oreanach.         A.  D.  1778. 


[469 


tity  of  linen  in  the  shirt;  where  a  man  proves 
aveiy  tall  man,  they  are  ao  exact,  that  if  a  tall 
man  comes  into  the  ward,  where  a  short  man 
has  been,  and  his  shirt,  which  if  he  is  a  veiy 
short  roan,  he  must  have  it  reduced  from  the 
standard  I  imagine;  so  he  has  nothing  else  to 
do,  but  to  go  to  his  nurse,  and  tell  her,  that 
shirt  is  too  short  for  him,  she  carries  it  to  the 
steward's  office,  and  it  is  changed  immediately 
§ar  another  that  fits  him,  \mX  has  been  the 
fiactioe  all  the  time  I  have  been  in  the  house. 
Had  it  been  the  practice  before  captain 
Bailhe's  book  came  out,  to  send  for  the  offi- 
cers to  see  the  Unen  measured  ? — ^No,  I  never 
heard  that  it  was. 

[Lieutenant  Moyle  withdrew.] 

Sir  John  Fielding  called  in. 

Did  lord  Sandwich  send  to  you  immediate- 
ly upon  the  news  of  the  fire  at  Greenwich  i — 
Yes. 

What  directions  did  he  give  to  vou? — ^He 
wished  to  have  the  matter  enquired  into,  and 
I  then  told  his  lordship  what  I  thought  would 
be  veiy  proper  steps  to  be  taken  for  that  pur- 
pose; and  he  directed  the  secretary,  Mr. 
Stephens,  to  take  down  those  directions; 
ibose  directions,  to  the  best  of  my  recollec- 
tion, were,  that  the  governor  of  Greenwich 
Hospital  be  desired  to  collect  aU  the  parties 
that  were  upon  the  spot  where  the  fire  took 
place,  the  day  before  tne  fire  happened ;  and 
that  he  should  also  collect  all  the  people  that 
came  to  the  fire,  at  the  first  appearance  of  it, 
and  have  all  those  people  ready  together,  that 
they  be.  examined  at  a  dav  affixed,  which  was 
I  believe,  a  day  or  two  aner  the  fire,  so  that 
the  directions  in  reality  were  given  by  me,  and 
not  by  ray  lord  Sandwich. 

In  consequence  of  that,  did  you  make  a 
strict  enquiiy  into  the  matter  ? — I  did,  as  ela^ 
borate  an  enquiry  as  ever  I  made  in  my  life, 
and  founded  upon  the  horror  I  had  of  such  a 
transaction,  for  it  was  represented  to  me,^  be- 
fore I  enquired  into  it,  as  if  it  might  have 
been  done  maliciously. 

How  many  days,  or  what  time  did  that  en- 
quiry take  you  ?— The  enquiry  of  the  people 
in  the  Hospital  took  two  days,  the  subsequent 
enquiries,  tor  we  were  not  content  in  taking 
the  facts  as  they  stood,  but  we  went  farther, 
and  even  pursued  every  little  hearsay;  of 
any  old  nurse,  or  any  drunken  pensioner,  or 
whatever  had  been  said  from  time  to  time ; 
the  enquiiy  continued  about  a  fortnight,  but 
two  days  only  at  Greenvdcb;  afiemwdsthe 
persons  were  sent  up'  to  me  by  sir  Charles 
Hard^;  whenever  there  w^  any  thing  to  be 
enquired  into,  they  sent  the  parties  up  to  me: 
they  were  all  examined  upon  oath,  and  all 
the  essential  parts  of  the  examination  were 
taken  in.wrtting, and  signed  by  the  parties. 

Do  you  know  whether  the  captam  of  the 
week,  and  the  officers  of  Greenwich  Hospital, 
were  examined  upon  oath  ?-^The  informations 
are  in  the  bands  of  the  secretary  of  the  Admi- 
ralty, Mr.  Ibbetsotn,  that  will  show,  I  do  not 


immediately  recollect  all  the  names  of  the 
officers,  but  being  acquainted  with  one  of 
them,  I  particular^  recollect,  that  the  oath  of 
captain  Allwright  was  taken ;  the  mode  we 
took  was  this,  I  considered  that  the  fire  must 
have  arisen,  either  from  accident,  from  inte- 
rest, or  from  malice,  and  to  those  thxee  points 
every  person  Was  examined ;  they  were  suf* 
fered  first  to  tell  their  stories,  and  if  they 
knew  nothing  that  I  thought  was  matter  of 
importance  at  all,  we  did  not  take  it  in  writ- 
ing, only  took  loose  minutes  of  it,  and  they 
are  in  the  hands  of  Mr.  Ibbetson. 

Upon  the  whole  then,  did  you  do  eveij 
thing  that  was  in  your  power  to  investigate 
that  matter  to  the  bottom  ? — ^I  am  sure,  be- 
fore such  a  respectable  body  as  this,  it  would 
be  vanity  in  me  to  say,  what  enquiry  I  did 
make;  but  I  believe  all  the  parties  that 
heard  it  were  satisfied,  I  was  acting  the  part 
of  an  upright  man,  and  a  good  magistrate  ; 
and  I  aid  every  thins  in  my  power,  and  am 
satisfied  that  the  affidavits,  when  they  come 
to  be  read,  will  convince  every  member  of 
this  honourable  House. 

From  this  examination,  where  did  it  appear 
that  the  fire  had  arisen  ? — There  is  an  apart- 
ment called  the  tailors'  shop ;  this  apartment 
goes  out  of  the  regulated  part  of  the  Hospital, 
called  the  Duke  of  York's  ward,  up  a  few 
steps,  into  this  tailors'  room ;  it  appeared  sa* 
tistactorily,  as  wUl  appear  from  the  informa- 
tions, that  it  did  not  break  out  in  the  taiioia* 
shop,  for  the  proof  of  putting  out  the  fire  is  so 
well  established,  and  the  proof  of  people  being 
in  that  room,  when  the  fire  was  discovered,  is 
equally  so  well  established,  that  it  was  mo- 
rally impossible  that  that  fire  could  break  out 
in  that  close  shop ;  the  fire  from  the  evidence, 
will  appear  to  be  under  this  tailors'  shop,  there 
the  seat  of  the  fire  was,  and  there  was  no  fire 
at  the  time  when  the  fire  was  imder  the  shop, 
no  appearance  of  fire  in  the  shop,  that  appears 
clearly  to  demonstration,  fix>m  the  nature  of 
the  evidence.* 

What  was  the  place  under  the  shop  ? — The 
•cieling  under  the  floor  of  the  tailors' shop ' 
covers  over,  with  some  Uttle  distant  space, 
the  alcove  of  the  altar-piece ;  for,  in  order 
that  we  mieht  investi^te  this  matter  with 
exactness,  which  is  a  tmng  of  very  great  con- 
sequence, Mr.  Mylne,  the  surveyor  there,  a 
very  ingenious  man,  as  I  could  not  see  objects 
so  well,  he  made  a  model  of  the  under  part 
of  the  floor,  covering  over  the  altar-piece, 
where  the  fire  evidentfy  was  seen. 

What  sort  of  a  place  did  you  say  was  under 
the  tailor's  shop  ? — First,  there  is  a  floor,  then 
under  that  a  vacant  place  not  used  for  anv 
purpose  whatever,  but  covered,  over  the  al- 
cove of  the  altar-piece,  in  the  chapel,  which 
is  situated  almost  all  the  way  under  this 
tailors'  shop. 

Where  did  it  appear  that  the  fire  began,  in 

*  See  lieatoiuuit  KeiT*i  •Tid«iiM,  page  fSl.— 
Orig.  Ed.  r 


*6S\ 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Cm  of  Captain  Thaam  BatOe,         [464 


the  dkow  of  the  chapeiy  or  in  wfao^  ▼acani 
plaoB? — ^Itdid  not  sppear  from  anydrcun^ 
ttaQcc  or  hdy  that  we  could  support,  thai  we 
eotild  fona  a  reel  &ir  coojecturoy  that  it  arose 
ifeaa  eocidcnty  from  the  tailors^  shop,  firom 
interest,  or  from  malice ;  now  from  interest^ 
we  had  a  strona  premmptive  evidtoce  it 
night  arise  frt>m  Uiat  quarter ;  and  that  from 
this  principle,  the  contractor  for  making  the 
c]othfi»y  is,  as  I  found,  a  more  contractor  for 
labour,  and  therefore  waa  not  neoessarv  to  be 
a  man  oi  property;  indeed,  he  turneci  eut  to 
be  so  low-life  a  reUow^  that  he  could  scarce 
find  money  to  pay  his  men;  but  he  was 
obliged  to  find  very  ample  securities  for  the 
property  he  waa  entrusted  with ;  now,  before 
this  fire  happened,  he  had  near  500  suits  of 
clothes,  reiwiy  made,  that  he  waa  to  deliver 
mit ;  the  dotk  had  been  given  out  to  him  by 
the  proper  ofiieera  of  the  charity ;  therefore, 
it  was  imagined,  that  if  he  did  not  account 
for  tbis  cJoth,  and.  the  clothes  being  in  the 
house  at  the  time  of  the  fire,  tiiat  he  mif^t 
have  embezzled  the  fwoperty  entrusted  to  nis 
care,  and  have  done  this  raaJiciOttsly,  in  order 
to  conceal  his  own  villainy ;  but  upon  pursu- 
ing that  enquiiy  upon  the  piinciple  of  inte- 
rest, it  appeared  very  clearly  ana  satisfturto- 
jfily^  that  all  the  property  of  the  HospiiEd  was 
in  the  tailors'  shop  tne  night  previous  to  the 
fire.  From  an  apprehension  that  he  mig^t 
have  done  somethmii  of  this  sort,  the  gover- 
nor was  kind  enough  to  have  patterns  of  ail 
the  difierent  cloths  delivered  to  Kim,  and  they 

nued  the  enquiry  tbroUj^out  all  the  pawn- 
ess  of  lionoon,  to  see  u  any  thing  oC  that 
sort  had  been  pawned;  so  that  it  turned  out 
clearly,  that  there  was  no  motive  of  interest 
in  this  contractor  to  do  this  villainous  act 

What  did  it  appear  then,  fix>m  this  exami- 
natifm,  was  tiie  cause  of  the  fire  ? — ^No  cause 
<;ould  be  assigned,  for  it  remains  now  in  as 
much  a  state  of  obscurity,  as  it  did  at  the  first 
moment;  and  perhaps  may  be  a  great  while, 
and  perhaps  for  ever. 

At  what  time  of  the  day  was  the  fire  first 
discovered  j-^I  think  about  six  in  the  morning. 

Were  there  any  people  at  that  time  at  woA: 

the  tailors'  shop? — ^No,  the  ciroumstance 


m 


was  this ;   I  can  remember  it  exceeding  well ; 
yrh»u  we  came  to  enquire  into  the  people, 
who  went  to  this  shop  m  the  morning  for  the 
key,  entrusted  by  the  contractor  with  his  ser- 
vant, he  went  to  town  that  night*;  a  bov^  a 
flprt  of  an  apprentice  or  clerk,  or  somethmg 
of  that  kind)  gent  with  the  Journeymen,  in 
.    order  to  let  them  into  the  shop,  and  upon  go- 
1^  :•   ing  inta^the  shop,  those  six  steps  that  lead 
'^'  •  msa  the  Hospital  to  the  tailors'  shop,  have  a 
door>atrthe  top,  and  a  door  at  the  bottom ; 
iHiexIMhey  unlocked  the  door  at  the  bottom, 
^ihe  amnke  then  came  out  fii^m  between  the 
^thinks  of  the  door,  that  lead  up  to  the  upper 
deor;  ^  le  that  it  was  a  httle  passage  between 
two  doois,  one  directly  leading  into  the  shop, 
*"     the  other  directly  leading  out  of  the  Dudce's 
ward  to  those  steps;  when  thej  opened  the 


first  door^  there  was  such  a  vitdent  smoke 
came  from  under  ^  steps,  that  they  were 
not  able  to  get  up ;  but  however,  one  or  two 
men,  whose  informations  were  taken,  dkl  get 
Mfi,  went  into  the  taikxrs'  shop,  one  with  a 
candle  and  lanthom  in  his  nand,  walked 
round  the  shop,  and  saw  no  fire;  upon  this 
diseovery  the  proper  officers  attended,  proper 
alarms  were  given,  and  eveiy  tfain^  was  done 
that  was  necessary  upon  the  occasion,  but  as 
the  fire  was  under  the  shop,  and  they  did  not 
tip  up  the  stejp  immediately^  to  see  where 
the  seat  and  ongin  of  it  was,  till  such  time  as 
it  was  got  to  such  a  height,  to  conceal  the 
origin  of  the  fire,  which  was  never  discovered. 

Who  were  those  men  that  went  round  the 
shop  with  a  candle  and  lanthom  in  their 
hands  ?  Were  they  the  tailors  ?— There  was  a 
boatswain  and  a  tailor,  and  two  or  three  in- 
diffiereot  people ;  it  is  proved  venr  substan- 
tially by  thne  or  four  different  evidences. 

Was  there  not  a  woman  that  swore  that 
the  fire  was  seen  in  the  tailors'  shop  ? — There 
waa  a  womai^  that  spoke  firam  hearsay  evi- 
dence, whidi,  when  traced  up,  came  to 
nothing,  that  a  man  had  been  seen  smoking 
in  the  shop  a  long  time  before. 

It  was  hinted  to  you,  that  it  might  be  set 
on  fire  malidously;  who  hinted  th2t  to  you  ; 
— ^I  forget  that ;  the  three  persons  who  were 
present  when  I  first  heard  of  it,  were  Mr. 
Stephens,  Mr.  Cooke,  and  my  lord  Sandwich  ; 
but  there  were  no  hints  from  them,  but  ^e 
conjecture  rather  arose  to  my  own  mindly 
from  the  history  they  were  giving  pf  some 
great  disputes  that  had  been  m  the  UospitaL 
It  is  natural  when  enquiring  into  the  cause  of 
a  thing,  to  see  wl^t  motivei  were  likely  to 
produce  it ;  I  had  not  heard  of  this  dispute 
about  captain  Baillie  at  this  time ;  but  when 
they  mentioned  to  me  that  there  were  dis- 
putes in  the  Hospital,  that  it  might  possibly 
arise  from  malice.  ^ 

You  say  it  waa  not  hinted  to  you  by  any  of 
ihaae  persons  you  named  ? — ^No^  my  method 
is  always  to  go  immediately  to  see  what  mo- 
tives can  produce  the  fact,  to  enqtnre  into  the 
origin  of  any  thing,  from  a  conviction,  that 
all  human  actions  must  have  an  adequate 
motive. 

IHd  the  tailors'  room  appear  to  be  a  board- 
ed room  ^ — ^It  was. 

Do  you  think,  upon  the  whole,  that  it  waa 
neglectful  or  not,  to  saShr  a  room  of  that  sort 
to  De  in  the  care  of  the  tailor  f — It  is  an  ab- 
surdity in  itself :  for  any  garrison,  or  place, 
to  have  a  set  of  outlaws  in  it ;  or  in  a  ship  ; 
I  have  had  the  honour  to  serve  his  majesty 
on  board  a  ship ;  if  all  the  parts  of  that  ship 
were  under  due  regulktion,  imd  there  was  an 
outlawed  place  in  the  forecastle,  or  down  in 
the  hold,  it  wo»M  be  an  exceeding  absurd 
thine ;  and  to  leave  a  body  of  ^rty  tailors 
drinking  gin  ail  day,  in  such  a  place  as  that, 
appears  to  roe  to  be  an  inregulanty. 

I  hez  you  will  say,  whether  there  came  oat 
upon- that  examiaation,  that  there  had  been 

S 


465]         respedn^  the  Royal  HosjAal  at  Greemtmch*         A.  D*  1778. 


people  in  the  tailors'  diop  late  the  night  be- 
n>re  } — No ;  it  appeared  the  fire  happened  the 
morning  after  New-year's-day ;  the  tailors,  as 
they  cafied  i^  knocked  off  the  day  before  at 
three  or  four  o'clock,  to  keep  New-year's-day, 
to  make  holiday ;  then  it  was  necessary  to 
shew  who  were^  the  people  that  was  in  this 
place,  at  the  tiine  of  shutting  up  the  shop ; 
there  was  the  master  tailor  hunself,  his  clerk, 
and  one  or  two  indifferent  people  belonging 
to  the  Hospital,  a  kind  of  scouts,  who  came 
Aoe  to  do  any  little  office,  were  all  there  at 
the  putting  out  of  the  fire ;  and  the  descrip- 
tk)n  of  the  manner  of  putting  out  that,  fire,  is 
set  forth  in  their  information ;  it  was  the 
middle  of  the  day,  there  was  no  nece»ity  for 
a  candle ;  there  were  no  goods  packing  up, 
or  to  be  sealedy'^and  there  was  no  cause  for 
any  light  whatever;  and  they  carried  their 
obserrations  of  putting  out  the  fire  to  such 
minuteness,  that  afWr  they  had  raked  the  fire 
out,  they  threw  water  upon  the  cinders  when 
they  were  upon  the  hearth,  and  pulled  the 
drcular  fender  out,  to  prevent  any  nuschief 
happening ;  so  that  the  care  upon  putting  out 
the  fire,  seems  to  me  to  be  exceedingly  satis- 
factory. 

How  many  people,  in  general,  did  it  appear, 
worked  in  that  place? — ^Upon  an  average, 
thirty.  This  man  contracts  only  for  labour ; 
and,  upon  examination,  I  find  they  got  very 
little  out  of  every  suit  of  clothes ;  they  only 
contracted  for  the  labour  and  the  trimmings, 
so  that  the  profits  arising  were  very  low ;  and 
I  do  suppose,  that  the  tailors  employed  were 
of  the  lowest  order. 

Did  it  appear  that  they  had  gin  there  to 
drink  ? — It  appeared,  that  the  master  tailor 
used  to  have  a  keg  6f  ^in  in  his  cutting-room, 
and  to  serve  it  ourto  his  men. 

Did  it  sppear  they  used  to  work  there  by 
candle4ightr — ^That  I  do  not  recollect;  I 
suppose  in  winter  time  ihey  did. 

You  said  capt^n  Allwright  was  examined 
upon  oath  ? — lie  seemed  to  me  the  earliest 
person  there  that  could  give  any  account,  and 
ne  is  a  gentlennan  I  happened  to  have  a  par- 
.tioular  knowledge  and  acquaintance  with ;  he 
is  a  very  amiable  worthy  man ;  I  do  myself, 
I  may  be  wrong  in  my  judgment,  but  I  do 
thmk,  that  upon  the  mfierence  of  opinion 
that  arose  between  him  and  a  very  active  fel- 
low that  vras  there,  who  was  going  to  rip  up 
the  steps  and  pull  down  all  before  him,  that 
he  misfat  see  the  seat  of  the  fire ;  he  was  pre- 
vented from  doins  it  by  this  idea,  whether 
right  or  wrong  I  oo  not  sav ;  they  said,  if  he 
took  up  the  steps,  it  would  give  vent  to  the 
fire ;  now  if  they  had  taken  up  these  six  steps 
instantaneously,  they  must  have  seen  where 
the  seat  of  the  fire  was. 

Who  advised  taking  them  up  ? — ^A  spirited 
fellow,  I  think  his  name  is  Cox. 

Did  you  ever  hear  what  is  the  amount  of 
the  damage  by  the  fire  at  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital?—No. 

You  have  mentioned  captain  AUwright; 

VOL.  XXI. 


[466 

what  character  does  he  bear  in  general?— « 
What  I  know  of  him  is  this,  he  is  a  gentle- 
man that  has  been  protected  from  his  early 
vouth  by  the  duke  of  Bolton,  and  I  have  seen 
him  hundreds  and  hundreds  of  times  at  Chat- 
ham with  the  duke's  relations^  and  I  always 
considered  him  as  a  very  amiable,  modest, 
worthy  man;  he  did  apply  to  me  two  or 
three  years  a^,  together  with  lieutenant  go- 
vernor Bailhe,  in  order  to  prosecute  some 
men  that  had  been  euilty  of  some  robberies 
in  tlie  Hospital ;  ana  captain  Baillie  and  cap* 
tain  Allwright  carried  on  their  prosecutions 
with  a  great  deal  of  spirit  and  propriety.  I 
never  saw  captain  Bailhe  but  at  that  time  in 
my  life,  but  captain  Allwrig[ht  I  have  known 
many  years ;  ne  is  as  amiable  a  man  as  I 
ever  knew  in  my  life. 

And  is  captain  Allwright  likely  to  side  with 
a  man  that  is  causing  great  duturbances  in 
the  Hospital  ?— He  seems  to  me  the  contrary ; 
he  appears  to  be  a  man  of  a  tranquil  temper, 
a  polite  welUbehaved  man. 

You  could  give  credit  to  his  opinion  ? — ^As 
soon  as  any  man  I  know. 

[Sir  John  Fielding  withdrew.] 

Captain  Chadds  called  in  again. 

Viscount  Dudley,    Whether  you  know  any 

thing  of  a  dispute  and  a  quarrel  between  two 

^  genUemen  of  the  Hospital ;   one  a  militaiv 

man;   the  other,  in  tLe  civil  employ?— J^. 

I  do. 

Who  are  they? — Lieutenant  Smith  and 
Mr.  Mylne,  the  survey6r  of  the  works. 

Can  you  te}l  us  any  thing  that  passed  upon 
thi^t  occasion  ?— One  hioming  hut  summer, 
lieutenant  Smith  sent  to  me,  and  desired  to 
^peak  with  me;  I  accordingly  went  to  him; 
he  told  me  he  had  had  some  difference  the 
night  before  with  Mr.  Mylne,  and  would  be 
glad  of  my  advice  how  to  act  upon  it ;  as  I 
was  a  military  officer,  and  he  was  a  military 
officer,  I  told  him  to  relate  his  story  to  me, 
and  I  would  give  him  my  advice  very  cor- 
dially; he  sdd  last  night  we  were  at  the 
club ;  the  subject  was  captain  BailUe's  book, 
which  was  the  cause  of  this  disturbance ;  they 
had  some  altercations  there  upon  it ;  I  was 
not  present :  this  is  as  lieutenant  Smith  told 
me;  when  the  club  broke  up,  they  with- 
drew; Mr.  Mylne  was  going  to  his  apart- 
ments along  with  another  gentleman. 

Be  so  good  as  to  confine  what  you  say,  to 
tell  us  what  part  you  had  in  making  up  this 
dispute? — ^Mr.  Mvlne  was  going  to  nis  apart- 
ments ;  Mr.  Smith  followed  him ;  Mr.  Smith 
came  up  with  him,  close  to  his  apartments ; 
they  had  some  altercations  there ;  this  is  as 
lieutenant  Smith  said;  words  ensued,  and 
then  blows;  which  struck  first  I  cannot  sa^ ; 
Mr.  Mylne,  I  believe,  was  more  successtul 
than  lieutenant  Smith,  and  knocked  him 
down;  I  said,  I  think  you  are  to  blame,  that 
is  my  opinion  of  the  matter;  for  had  you 
eone  to  your  apartments,  tliis  thing  would  not 
have  happenea,  for  Mr.  Mylne  was  gone  to 

^H 


471]  IS  GEORGE  lit.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  Basllie,         [472 


What  was  the  reason  for  that  P—I  assigned 
fifty  breaches ;  but  the  witnesses  that  were 
to  give  an  account  of  the  transaction,  and  to 

g've  strict  and  legal  evidence  before  a  jury, 
id  not  been  narticular  in  th&  accounts  they 
had  taken,  and  could  not  speak  to  manv  of 
.the  days,  when  they  might  have  been  deli- 
vered, with  precision ;  they  could  not  specify 
particular  days,  except  to  very  few  of  the 
•Dreaches. 

That  article  for  the  forfeiture  of  10/.  for 
.  each  breach  of  the  contract,  which  you  think 
was  not  intended  to  appl}r  to  that  particular 
case,  but  that  you  ingeniously  turned  it  to 
that;  what  was  that  inserted  for,  do  you 
think? — ^I  conceive  the  article  was, intended 
as  a  general  one;  but  it  did  not  strike  me, 
that  the  words  applied  to  this  particular  kind 
of  breach  ;  because,  in  that  article,  there  is  a 
-provision,  that  the  Hospital  disliking  any  of 
the  meat  may  return  it,  and  go  to  ma^et  aud 
supply  the  Hospital  with  other  provisions  in 
lieu,  and  the  contractor  is  to  make  a  deduc- 
tion out  of  his  account  for  it;  and  it  did  not 
appear  to  me,  that  the  case  in  question  imme- 
diatelv  applied  to  this  particular  kind  of 
breach  of  contract ;  I  should  rather  conceive 
tliat  that  was  intended  where  the  contractor, 
in  times  of  scarcity,  and  finding  meat  at  a 
much  higher  price  than  he  had  contracted  to 
supply  it  for,  might  hang  back  and  not  per- 
form his  contract,  that  I  conudered  the  pe- 
nalty was  intended  against  him  more  in  tnat 
respect  than  any  other. 

You  apprehend,  that  the  10/.  penalty  was 
for  each  failure  of  his  ccmtract  ? — And  so  it 
was  affiled,  upon  this  occasion,  and  the  jury 
gave  us  a  verdict. 

But  you  did  not  think  justlv  ?— I  had  my 
doubts  about  that,  but  thought  it  might  be 
applied  to  the  point,  and  it  answered  my  pur- 
pose. 

Upon  the  second  trial,  in  Guildhall,  I  think 
you  said,  thdt  the  chief  Justice,  lord  Mans- 
field, before  whom  it  was  tried,  said,  this  was 
a  persecution,  and  not  a  prosecution  ? — ^1  nei- 
ther did  say,  nor  could  mean  to  say,  that  the 
noble  lord  said  that ;  but  that  Mr.  Dunnins, 
of  whose  honour  and  humanity  I  spoke,  to(% 
up  the  matter  witn  an  unaffected  warmth,  and 
he  considered  it  as  a  persecution. 

Do  you  take  upon  you  to  say,  that  lord 
Mansfield  said,  firom  the  bench,  that  it  would 
be  more  for  the  end  of  justice  to  compromise 
it  ? — No,  as  I  understood  it,  that  the  ends  of 
justice  had  been,  sufficiently  answered  al- 
ready. 

Dfd  you  mean  to  say,  that  it  was  dropped 
from  the  bench  or  not,  that  the  ends  of  justice 
would  be  as  fiilly  obtained  ? — ^Not  expressly 
said  in  terms;  but  I  understood  the  hint  that 
•dropped  from  lord  Mansfield,  that  all  the  cir- 
cumstances of  the  case  considered,  it  might 
as  well  be  compromised  as  tried ;  that  the  ends 
iof  justice  might  be  as  well  obtained,  was  what 
myself  subjomed.  [Here  Mr.  Gumey  was 
^called  upon  to  read  his  short-hand  notes,  by 


which  it  appeared,  that  Mr.  Morgan  had,  in 
the  former  part  of  his  evidence,  made  lord 
Mansfield  say,  that  it  would  be  a  persecution^ 
and  not  a  prosecution ;  but  as  Mr.  Morean 
said,  he  had  through  mistake  mis-stated  mat 
fiujt,  he  was  permitted  to  re-state  it,  and  it 
now  stands  upon  the  Minutes  as  the  witness 
said  he  meant  to  express  himself]  A  very 
little  from  my  lord  Mansfield,  to  tnose  who 
know  him  in  his  judicial  capacity,  conveys  to 
his  hearers  a  great  deal;  my  lord  Mansfield 
said  but  little ;  and  the  representation  made 
by  the  solicitor  to  the  directors  did,  in  my 
opinion,  convey  very  properly  the  idea  that 
he  entertained  of  what  had  passed ;  and  that 
was  this,  that  my  lord  (I  think  the  expression 
is)  seemed  to  hint,  that  under  all  the  circum- 
stances of  the  case,  might  as  well  be  compro- 
mised as  tried ;  I  thim^  that  was  the  repre- 
sentation that  was  made  by  the  solicitor ;  that 
was  what  I  considered  my  lord  Mansfield  had 
said ;  but  very  little,  but  in  the  very  little  he 
did  say,  I  understood  a  great  deal ;  and  I  have 
not  been  attempting  to  state  to  this  House,  a 
long  conversation  ot  lord  Mansfield,  when  I  do 
not  know  that  he  dropped  half  a  dozen  worda 
upon  the  subject ;  therefore  I  have  been  mis- 
understood; when  I  have  been  giving  my 
own  construction,  your  lordship  has  thought  I 
was  giving  lord  Mansfield's  words. 

Were  you  in  court  yourself,  or  did  you  take 
it  fifom  the  solicitor,  whatloid  Mansfield  said 
upon  that  subject  ? — I  was  in  court 

What  was  the  residt  of  what  lord  Mansfield 
said  upon  that  occasion  ? — ^A  hint  firom  lord 
Manstield,  that  under  all  the  circumstances 
of  the  case,  the  second  cause  might  as  wdl 
be  compromised ;  upon  the  cause  coming  on 
to  be  tried,  something  like  a  question  dropped 
from  lord  Mansfield,  if  that  cause  was  not 
mentioned,  something  like  it;  upon  whidi 
Mr.  Wallace,  in  answer  said,  that  the  direc- 
tors thought,  if  they  compromised  it  of  them- 
selves, wiUiout  the  approbation  of  the  court 
and  council,  that  it  would  look  like  extortion ; 
upon  which  lord  Mansfield  said,  ^  No,  no* 
thing  of  thai  kind .''  The  council  of  the  Hos- 
pital thought  it  advisee  to  compromise;  I 
was  of  tluit  opinion,  that  the  man  had  been 
sufficiently,  and  it  was  my  own  opinion,  more 
than  sufficiently  punished ;  it  can  have  cost 
him,  in  the  whole,  little  less  than  900/. 

Is  that  the  whole  of  hints,  that  you  under- 
stood from  lord  Mansfield,  eiven  in  so  few 
words,  which  you  understood  so  largely  f — 
That  is  the  substance. 

I  think  you  have  said,  that  it  was  your  opi* 
iiion  also,  as  counsel  ror  the  directors,  that 
the  butcher  who  had  been  convicted  of  one 
wicked  act  before,  should  not  be  convicted 
again,  because  it  would  be  persecution? — ^I 
am  anaid  my  opinion  is  not  properly  undeiv 
stood ;  I  think  it  is  tantamount  to  conviction, 
when  a  man  a^es  to  pay  100/.  and  costs, 
which  amountea  to  near  300/.  that  that  opi- 
nion was  not  ill-founded ;  and  that  it  was  not 
the  duty  of  the  directors^  in  a  case  of  thi$ 


475]         fupec&i^  ike  Royal 


at  Greemick.        A.  D.  1778. 


[474 


kind,  to  seek  the  noNmifli/te  ;  they  had  made 
an  example  of  him  suificieotly. 

In  the  first  cause  or  4he  second  f — la  the 
second,  in  my  opinion ;  for  the  jury  was 
sworn,  and  the  man  was  put  to  as  much  ex- 
pence  as  he  could  be. 

[John  Morgan^  esq.  withdrew.] 

Doctor  Ti^hr  called  in,  one  of  Lord  Sand- 
wich's witnesses. 

How  long  have  you  been  in  the  Hospital  ? 
— ^Between  IS  and  14  years. 

Who  appointed  you  ? — I  was  appointed  in 
lord  EgmonVs  time. 

Do  you  concave  the  infirmary  to  be  a  good 
establishment? — The  infiimai^  is,  of  itself, 
one  of  the  best  hospitals  in  this  country. 

How  many  pensioners  will  it  hold? — Bo* 
tween  240  and  950. 

Will  it,  upon  an  avenge,  hold  all  the  sick 
of  the  Hospital  ? — ^It  always  has  done  it ;  and 
we  have  had  room  enoueh  to  shift  the  people. 

Is  it  designed  to  hold  ooth  the  helpless  and 
flick,  or  sick  alone  ?— It  will  hold  only  the  sick 
alone. 

Do  you  attend  the  examination  of  people 
who  are  candidates  to  be  admitted  into  the 
Ho^ital  ? — ^It  is  ray  duty  to  be  present  at  the 
Adimralty  on  every  examination  of  invalids. 

Who  attends  ?~Lord  Sandwich,  since  he 
has  presided  at  the  board ;  he  has  always  at- 
tended and  examined  the  invalids,  when  he 
has  been^  in  town. 

How  are  thejr  admitted? — They  bring  cer- 
tificates of  their  servitude,  and  they  are  ad- 
mitted by  the  length  of  their  services,  and  by 
infirmity.  Those  that  have  had  kng  service, 
lord  Sandwich  generally  puts  upon  short  lists ; 
and  those  that  have  accidents,  they  are  put 
upon  a  short  list ;  those  of  less  merit  and 
service  are  deferred. 

Does  it  appear  that  thev  are  preferred  by 
6.vour  or  by  merit  ? — ^Lord  Sandwich  makes 
it  a  rule  to  destroy  all  recommendations  be- 
fore he  examines  the  parties.  The  examina- 
tion, in  his  lordship's  time,  has  been  as  im- 
partial and  attentive  as  any  I  ever  saw. 

Could  the  admisswn  of  pensioners  be  better 
legulated  than  it  is  ? — I  think  not ;  there  has 
not  been  a  landman  got  into  that  Hospital 
ever  since  I  have  attended,  but  those  who 
have  served  at  sea.* 

Cross-Examination. 

If  you  recollect  making  any  representation 
concerning  any  bad  veal  for  the  sick  ?-*-!  re- 
member some  very  bad  veal  one  morning 
being  brought  into  the  infirmary ;  I  saw  it, 
%nd  recommended  the  cooks  to  carry  it  to  the 
proper  officers ;  it  was  very  indifferent,  but  it 
was  not  putrid;  it  was  fresh. 

Was  tJie  colour  good  ?— It  was  In  all  re- 
spects bad  veal. 

^H      I  I*  I  ■■       -■  I.      .1     !■        ■      —      -.. 

*  It  is  praramed  I19  doe#  not  speak  of  officers  or 
ffMj  ofiioers,  wbich  is  of  iofinilely  more  ooose* 
^wpoi.    Orig.  Ed. 


Did  you  aver  find  the  butter  bad  ?— No.  I 
have  very  seldom  had  any  complaiuts  about 
proyisions :  there  has  been  complaints^  I 
know,  at  one  time,  about  some  butter ;  but  I 
don't  know  whether  it  was  in  the  infirmary 
or  in  the  Hospital. 

Did  you  never  send  a  quantity  of  bad  butter 
to  lieutenant  Smith,  or  captain  Chadds,  for 
their  inspection,  which  your  patients  could  not 
eat? — ^I  nave  forgot  that  circumstance;  itia 
very  possible  I  might ;  but  it  is  a  long  time 
ago. 

Was  the  same  sort  of  beef  supplied  to  the 
men  in  the  infirmary  that  was  furnished  lo 
the  pensioners  in  the  Hospital? — I  believe 
the  same  sort ;  I  never  heard  any  complaint 
of  the  beef  in  my  life. 

Did  vou  ever  complain  to  the  directors  of 
the  defective  state  of  your  house  in  the  in-, 
firmary? — ^We  wrote  a  letter  to  have  our 
house  refitted;  we  have  been  eleven  years 
in  our  houses,  and  there  has  been  nothing 
done  to  them  in  that  time ;  that  was  a  genenu 
letter  wrote  to  desire  that  they  might  be  re. 
paired,  and  the  wainscot  might  be  put  to 
rights,  and  the  painting  refieshed  and  white^ 
washed. 

Was  there  nothing  done  to  them  but  paint- 
ing and  white-washing  ?---They  are  repairing 
them  at  this  time;  repairing  the  wainscot, 
painting  and  white-washing  it,  and  laying 
some  ot  the  floors. 

Did  you  complain  of  captain  Baillie's 
printed  Case? — I  signed  tne  complaints 
against  captain  Baillie. 

Did  you  complain,  at  first,  with  the  other 
officers,  or  afterwards  ? — ^When  the  book  came 
out,  and  I  found  reflections  thrown  out  aeainst 
the  physical  people,  as  well  as  other  c&sses, 
I  then  signed  both  the  first  and  the  last. 

Are  you  one  of  the  council  of  the  house  ? — 
No ;  I  have  nothing  to  do  with  the  council. 

Has  captain  Baillie  made  any  reflections 
upon  you  m  the  case  of  Greenwich  Hospital  ? 
--He  'charges  the  faculty,  I  think,  with  par- 
tiality; he  calls  us  factious;  these  charges  I 
do  not  understand. 

Do  you  think  it  possible  that  bull  beef 
could  be  received  tor  ten  months,  instead  of 
good  fat  ox  beef,  if  the  clerk  of  the  cheque 
and  the  steward's  clerk  had  done  their  duty  ? 
— I  think  it  impossible  they  could  be  served 
with  bull  beef  in  that  time. 

Do  you  imagine  they  were  not  served  with 
bull  beef  during  that  time? — Yes;  I  imagine 
they  were  not. 

Did  you  attend  the  trials  ? — ^No,  I  never  did. 

Did  you  not  hear  it  had  been  made  appear 
there,  upon  oath,  that  they  were  servca  for 
ten  months  with  Hull  beef? — I  cannot  think 
it  {)08sibie  that  they  could,  because  I  never 
heard  any  complaints  among  the  people ;  and 
I  think  I  should,  if  it  had  been  so. 

[Doctor  Taylor  withdrew.] 

jQhn  Baptist  Cipriani  called  in. 

The  Earl  of  Chesterfield.    Do  you  know 


»75] 


18  GEOTftOE  HL         The  Case  ofCaftmn  Tkomm  BaSUe^         [476 


the  terms  upon  which  the  Paiirted-hall  was 
cleaned  at  Greenwich  ? — I  did  not  but  lately. 

Yoii  know  it  now  ? — I  do. 

Was  the  bargain  of  cleaning  it  a  good  bai^ 
^adn  on  the  side  of  the  Hospital? — ^1  think  it 
IS  very  reasonable.* 

Was  the  cleaning  of  the  Painted-charaber 
At  Whitehall  upon  better  terms?— Much 
dearer ;  but  I  dia  not  think  myself  well  paid. 

Cross-Examination. 

How  long  have  you  been  acquainted  with 
the  paintings  at  Greenwich-Hospital  ?— Very 
lately. 

•  Did  you  ever  see  them  before  they  were 
cleaned  ? — I  did. 

How  long  ago  was  that? — ^I  believe  it  is 
xme  or  ten  years  ago. 

Was  there  ever  any  Scaffolding  made  by 
-which  you  could  examine  them  so  near  as  to 
know  what  repairs  they  would  want  ?— There 
was  no  scaffold  at  dll  at  that  time. 

Where  did  you  see  them  from  ? — From  the 
bottom. 

How  high  is  the  hall  ?'---I  cannot  tell  ex- 
actly the  dfimensions ;  but  it  seemed  fo  me 
yety  high. 

Is  it  thirty  feet  high  ?— Th^^reabouf s,  I 
6hould  think. 

At  that  distance  could  you  be  a  jndge  of 
what  repair  they  could  want  ?— As  I  did  not 
go  as  an  examinator,  I  did  not  take  particular 
notibe  of  that. 

Then,  at  that  time,  did  you  form  any  judg- 
ment of  what  it  would  cost  to  repair  the 
paintings? — I  did  not  think  of  it. 

From  that  time  when  was  the  next  time 
you  saw  the  Painted-hall  ? — Last  Sunday  se'n- 
night. 

-   That  is  since  it  has  been  cleaned  ? — Yes. 
^  Did  you  go  up  to  the  ceiling,  or  then  exa- 
mine it  from  the  floor  ? — From  the  floor. 

Did  you  ever  measure  the  Painted-hall,  to 
know  what  quantity  there  is  of  it? — No,  I  did 
not. 

Do  you  know,  with  any  degree  of  acairacy, 
what  work  was  done  upon  itr — ^I  conceive,  a 
great  deal. 

Have  you  any  foundation  for  that  concep- 
tion ? — I  have. 

What  is  it  ? — I  have  tried,  myself,  this  kind 
.ofrepairing  at  Windsor  palace,  and  I  find  a 
great  deal  of  damages,  which  I  am  obliged  to 
xeHpaint  over. 

Do  you  know  whether  there  was  in  this 
instance  a  great  deal  of  damage  ? — I  cannot 
tell  that,  as  I  did  not  go  before  with  the  eyes 
of  examining  the  work. 

Do  you  know  whether  any  part  was  painted 
jover  again? — It  is  almost  impossible  to* tell 
that^  when  it  was  well  done,  and  I  think 
■111  II         -  I  '    ■      ■■■      .1  — 

*  Tills  is  not  a  fiur  ooinpsriiion,  becautie  Mr 
Cipriani  e4D  earn  as  many  guinaas  in  a  day,  as  the 
peraon  who  vims  employed  can  earn  half  crowns. 


Greenwich  Hospital  has  been  extremely  wdl 
repaired. 

Do  you  know  whether  any  part  of  it  has 
been  re^painted? — ^As  far  as  my  eyes  could 
reach  I  could  see. 

I  think  you  have  said  that  the  chapet.  at 
M^hitehali  was  repaired? — Yes. 

Did  you  repair  that  ? — I  did. 

What  were  you  paid  tor  that? — For  myself  I 
was  paid  400  guineas,  and  all  the  expenc^ 
including  the  whole,  amounted  to  near  700/. 

Was  the  scaffoidins  included  in  that  700/.  ? 
— ^No,  that  was  built  oy  the  board  of  works. 

Whom  are  the  paintings  done  by  in  the 
Banoueting-house  ?— By  Rubens. 

Whom  are  the  paintings  done  by  in  GvteB- 
wich  hall  ?— Sir  James  Thomhill. 

I>o  you  know  how  many  feet  there  are  in 
Whitehall  chapel  ?— *I  do  not  know. 

Which  is  the  largest- quantity  of  woric? — 
Greenwich  Hospital,  ten  times  larger,  in  pro- 
portion. 

Do  you  know  Mr.  Bertels  ? — ^I  do  not. 

Did  you  never  hear  of  such  a  man  that 
deals  in  pictures  ? — ^No,  I  do  not  know  him. 

The  Earl  of  Chesterfield.  Whether  you  do 
not  think  that  if  the  cleaning  of  the  pictoics 
at  the  Painted-hall  at  Greenwich,  had  been 
put  into  improper  hands  that  great  daoDiiage 
might  be  done  to  them  ? — A,  My  opinion  was, 
that  it  was  a  very  hicky  drcumstance  that 
they  were  so  well  repaired,  as  it  is  one  of  the 
best  pieces  of  work  that  this  nation  can  brag 
of;  and  I  think  it  is  well  repaired. 

Whether  you  know  Mr.  Greenwood  f-*I 
know  him  by  sight.  '   - 

No  otherwise } — 'So  otherwise. 

[John  Baptist  Cipriani  irithdrsw.] 

Mr.  LefeiH:e  called  in. 

What  do  you  know  of  ihe  auairel  betwetti 
Mr.  Myhie  and  Mr.  Smith  r — ^I  remembcnr 
hearing  in  the  evenine  that  Mr.  Mylne  and 
lieutenant  Smith  had  a  quarrel ;  I  can  only 
speak  of  what  I  had  from  Mr.  Snuth,  the  neat 
morning.* 

Were  you  made  a  lieutenant  throiigh  ttie 
interest  of  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  ? — ^I  fiuicy  not ; 
if  I  had,  I  dare  say  Mr.  Cooke  wouM  haave 
told  me  of  it ;  I  should  suppose  from  difiereat 
motives  intirely ;  I  was  many  years  a  mid 
shipman,  though  I  had  an  exoeedins  ftuod 
friend,  oAe  of  t&  first  men  in  the  aervi^Arho 
is  since  dead  :  but  my  father  despairing  of  my 
getting  a  lientenanc^,  was  desired  to  yurcbaa^ 
some  votes  in  Huntingdon,  I  was  not  at  hooie^ 
at  that  time ;  I  did  not  come  home,  I  beliefe^ 
for  near  two  vears  afterwards. 

Whom  did  vour  £arther  purchase  tiioae  voies 
of  ? — One  Collins,  a  contracting  carpettltor  fnr 
the  Hospital  at  Greenwich,  I  believe. 

What  countryman  is  he? — I  belieTe  an 
Huntingdonshire  man. 

Whether  you  ever  ctfered  any  living  to  Mr. 
Cooke? — Entirely  the  reverse,  if  it  was  the 

*  Hera  Uievidaiioe  was  ttopi    .« 


477}        r«iftti&i^  He  Boyd  Hotfiial  at  Greamdi.        A.  O.  }778. 


[4W 


last  words  I  have  to  say,  I  declare  entirely  the 
reverse;  I  remember  particularly  weQ  that 
about  the  middle  of  the  year  1777,  Mr.  Cooke 
aaid  be  should  imagine  that  upon  such  an 
.^tate  OS  Mr.  Calcratt'Sy  there  must  he  an  ex- 
IPeeding  ^ood  living;  I  said  there  was;  he 
said  provided  he  could  get  such  a  living,  he 
■would  go  and  retire  upon  it,  and  said  he  was 
certain  my  lord  Sandwich  would  place  his 
brother  in  his  office;  I  said  that  living  he 
could  not  possibly  get,  for  that  the  reversion 
of  it  was  given  away  years  and  years  mo;  it 
was  given  away  before  Mr.  Calcraft's  death; 
I  shewed  Mr.  Turner  the  will^  who  could  have 
told  Mr.  Cooke  the  same  thmg,  and  I  have 
not  the  least  doubt  but  what  he  told  him  so. 

[Mr.  Lefevre  withdrew.] 

Here  t&e  Evidence  cUned, 


After  this,  the  Duke  of  Richmond  made  a 
very  lov^  speech,  in  which  he  recapitulated 
the  evidence  which  had  been  ^ven,  and  ob- 
served upon  it;  and,  in  conclusion,  moved, 

"  That  the  Committee  have  read  the  several 

Kpeis  referred  to  them  by  the  House,  and 
ve  examined  several  witnesses  touching  the 
afiaurs  of  Greenwich  Hospital. 

**  That  it  appears  to  the  Committee,  that 
abuses  of  various  kinds  have  at  different  times 
xrept  into  the  management  of  the  said  Hos- 

**  That  the  Committee  do  not  judge  it  ne- 
.ceasary  to  trouble  the  House  with  any  account 
of  those  which  have  been  corrected,  or  with 
JBUch  as  are  either  of  small  importance,  or 
.likely  to  meet  with  redress  from  the  present 
constitution  of  the  Hospital. 

''  But  the  Committee  think  it  their  duty  to 
lay  before  the  House  an  account  of  SQ^ne-of 
the  abuses  which  sUll  subsist,  and  ar^  worthy 
the  attention  of  parliament,  especially  as  jsome 
of  them  appear  to. the  Committee  to  have 
arisen  from  provisions  introduced  into  Uie 
new  charter^  and  to  require  such  remedies  as 
.the  interposition  of  the  legislature  is  alone 
competent  to  afford. 

"  That  the  principal  abuses  at  present  ex- 
iatiKQg,  come  under  the  two  following  heads : 

**  First,  The  introduction  of  landmen,  to  a 

yery  great  extent,  into  various  departments  of 

.tlie  government  of  this  Naval  Hospital,  most 

of  them  in  breach  of  the  express  provisions  of 

,lhe  original  commission,  and  of  the  present 

jaustiag  charter. 

**  3mndly,  The  refusal  or  neglect  of  re- 
dress fVom  the  different  boards  in  whom  the 
,  naaagement  of  the  Hospital  is  placed,  parti- 
cularly in  the  general  court,  in  appoinUng  a 
partiiu  and  interested  committee,  to  enquire 
.mtotiie  ccanpkuntsof  the  Ueutonant-govemor, 
the  Jiqjustifiabie  conduct  of  that  committee, 
.aod.  ibe  illegal  proceedinss  of  the  board  of 
vAdoiiialfcy,  in  removing  tne  said  lieutenant- 
•  fipvaraor  finom  his  office,  without  ever  hearing 
^Hfiin  H*  de£mce^  or  even  so  much  as  alleg- 


ing against  him  ^y  specific  charge  of  misb^ 
haviour. 

'*  Under  the  First  of  these  Heads,  it  ha« 
appeared  to  the  Co^^^ittee,  that  five  of  the 
present  members  of  the  council  are  not  sea« 
raring  men,  or  such  as  have  lost  their  limbs, 
or  been  otherwise  disabled  in  the  sea  service, 
as  required  by  the  charter  of  the  said  Hospital. 

**  That  besides  the  above-mentioned  five 
members  of  the  council,  there  are  twenty-one 
other  persons  who  bold  offices  in  the  said  Hos- 
pital also  contrary  to  the  charter. 

*'  That  of  the  three  matrons,  now  belong- 
ing to  the  said  Hospital,  two  of  them  are  nei- 
ther widows,  nor  daughters  of  seamen ;  while 
the  widows  of  captains,  in  the  Royal  Hospital, 
have  in  vain  petitioned  for  these  appoints 
ments. 

*'  That  there  are  likewise  twenty-five  other 
employments,  some  of  them  very  consider- 
able and  lucrative,  which  not  being  denomi- 
nated offices  in  the  house,  may  not  fall  within 
the  express  provisions  of  the  charter,  to  be 
held  bv  seafarii\e  men ;  )>ut  as  there  is  no  art, 
or  skill  required  for  tliem,  which  a  man  who 
has  served  at  a^  n^y  pot  be  possessed  of,  it 
is  contrary  to  the  object  and  spirit  of  this  in- 
stitution, when  seamen  properly  qualified  can 
be  found,  not  to  give  them  the  preference 
over  landmen,  who  have  no  pretensions  to 
the  benefit  of  this  naval  charity. 

**  That  the  office  of  architect  is  the  only 
one  belonging  to  Greenwich  Hospital,  to 
which  it  appears,  that  a  seaman  may  not  be 
competent.  But  it  does  not  appear  that  such 
an  officer  is  at  all  necessar^r.  When  new 
works  are  carrying  on,  an  eminent  architect, 
like  an  emjjn^nt  painter,  may  be  employed, 
without  loading  the  establishment  with  such 
a  permanent  omce,  as  is  particularly  pointed 
out  in  Uie  commission,  but  entirely  omitted 
in  the  charter.  It  is  still  less  necessary  for 
the  Hospital  to  have,  as  at  present  is  estar 
bUshed,  two  architects,  Mr.  Stewart  and  Mr. 
Mylne,  under  the  different  denominations  of 
surveyor  and  clerk  of  the  works.  / 
'*  Under  the  Second  Head, 

"  With  respect  to  the  court  of  directo]fs,  it 
appears  to  the  Committee,  That  a  most 
shameful  abuse  existed  for  a  very  consider- 
able time  in  the  Hospital,  bv  the  contracting 
butcher,  Mr.  Peter  Mellish,  suppWing  the 
poor  pensioners  with  bull  beef,  and  meat  of 
the  worst  kind,  worth  only  14i.  per  cwt.,  in- 
stead of  the  best  fat  ox  beef,  for  which  he 
was  allowed  3Ss.  6d.  per  cwt.  And  although 
the  said  Mellish  was,  in  the  year  1776,  con- 
victed in  a  court  of  law  of  this  detestable 
fraud,  in  no  less  than  ten  instances,  and  was 
aflerwards  sued  for  fifty  other  breaches  of  his 
contract,  which  he  was  suffered  to  compound, 
yet  the  directors,  instead  of  markinjj  so  in- 
famous a  cheat,  by  excluding  him  from  all 
future  dealings  with  \he  Hospital,  have  ever 
since  continued  to  give  to  the  said  Mellish 
fresh  contracts  for  supplying  the  whole  Hos- 
pital'With  meat  fof  a^twelvemonth,  under  an 


479] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  ofCapUtin  Thmat  BaSBe^         [486 


idea,  as  one  of  the  directors  deposed  at  the 
bar  of  this  House,  that  although  a  man  had 
been  guilty  of  a  fraud  towards  the  Hospital, 
yet  if  he  offered  to  serve  for  less  money  than 
any  other  person,  there  was  an  obligation  upon 
the  commissioners  and  managers  of  thle  IIos- 
pital  to  employ  that  man  so  convicte<t. 

«'  It  also  ftuthcr  appears, 

**  That  the  practice  of  chalking  off  (whereby 
money  is  given  twice  a  week  to  the  pension- 
ers, in  lieu  of  meat  and  cheese)  sUU  continues' 
to  subsist,  notwithstanding  the  unanimous  re- 
presentation of  the  council  on  the  9th  of  Au- 
gust, 1776.  to  the  board  of  directors,  *  That  such 

*  practice  is  not  only  contrary  to  the  establish- 

*  ment,  but  injurious  to  the  health  and  morals 
'  of  Uie  pensioners,  and  is  attended  with  many 
^  inconveniences,  improprieties,  and  irregula- 

*  rities,  and  ought  to  oe  totally  abolished.' 

<<  With  respect  to  the  general  court,  and 
the  committee  which  they  appointed,  it  ap- 
pears, 

*^  I'hat  the  foregoing,  and  other  matters  of 
complaint,  were,  in  uie  printed  Case  of  the 
Iloyal  Hospital  for  Seamen  at  Greenwich,  laid 
before  the  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty  by  cap- 
tain Baillie,  the  lieutenant-governor,  and  if- 
terwards  on  the  86th  of  A&ch  1778,  trans- 
mitted to  the  secretarv  of  the  Admiralty,  to 
be  by  him  officially  laic  before  the  board,  with 
a  request  from  the  said  captain  Baillie,  that 
their  lordships  would  be  pleased  to  summon  a 
Aill  and  general  court  of  the  commissioners 
and  governors,  according  to  the  true  intent 
and  meaning  of  the  charter,  to  whom  he 
most  ardently  wished  to  appeal,  and  prove  the 
charges  therein  contained;  hoping  that  to 
make  such  a  court  efficient,  it  might  be  ad- 
vertised three  Umes  in  the  Gazette,  as  well 
as  summonses  sent 

<<  That  a  general  court  of  commissioners 
and  fi^ovecDors  of  Greenwich  Hospital  was  ac- 
cordingly called,  but  without  sucn  advertise- 
ments or  general  summonses,  and  sat  at  the 
Admiralty  on  the  14th  of  April  1778.  At  ' 
this  court  it  was  resolved,  that  sir  Merrick 
Burrell,  Mr.  Cust,  Mr.  Savaiy,  Mr.  Barker, 
Mr.  Wells,  Mr.  James,  Mr.  Reynolds,  should  ; 
be  a  committee  ^of  whom  uiree  to  be  a  ; 
quonim^  to  investigate  the  grounds  '  of  the 
'  several  charges  contained  in  the  above- 
'  mentioned  book ;  and  they  were  desired  to 
*•  proceed  upon  that  business  with  all  conve- 
^  nient  dispatch,  at  such  times  and  places  as  ' 

*  they  should, think  most  proper  for  the  pur- 
<  pose ;  and  when  thev  had  completed  such 
'  mvestigation,  to  let  the  lords  ot  the  Admi- 
'  ralty  know  it,  that  another  general  court 

*  niieht  be  called  to  receive  the  report.* 

<<  That  captain  Baillie  objec^d  to  the  com- 
mittee, as  composed  of  directors,  persons 
against  whom  his  complaints  chiefly  lay. 

''  That  notwithstanaing  his  objections,  the 
said  general  court  appointed  the  said  com- 
mittee, consisting  of  the  seven  persons  above- 
named,  who  are  all  of  them  directors. 

^  That  captain  Baillie  in  his  letter  of  the  | 


t8th  of  April  1778,  to  the  said  committee, 
protested  against  their  proceedings: 

''  That  notwithstanaing  the  said  protest, 
the  said  committee  met  at  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital, and  sat  seven  days,  but  would  ndther 
suffer  captain  Baillie  to  proceed  in  his  own 
way  to  prove  his  Case,  nor  enquire  into  'any 
'  matters  respecting  complaints  against  «ther 

*  the  court  ot  directors,  the  general  court,  the 

*  governor,  board  of  Admiralty,  or  first  lord  of 

*  the  Admiralty ;'  but  confined  their  enquiry 
mcrdv  to  such  parts  as  respected  the  officers 
who  had  complained  to  the  general  court 
And  in  Uie  prosecution  of  this  enquiry,  the 
said  committee  suffered  Mr.  Morgan,  as  coun- 
sel for  the  said  officers,  to  direct  the  mode  in 
which  captain  Baillie  should  proceed  to  make 
good  his  charges,  frequently  refusing  to  hear 
nis  witnesses. 

*'  That  no  one  member  of  the  said  commit- 
tee attended  the  whole  seven  days  which  it 
sat,  but  that,  nevertheless,  a  report  of  their 
proceedings  was  made  to  the  general  court, 
and  signed  by  two  of  the  members,  who  had 
sat  as  presidents,  one  of  whom  had  been  pre- 
sent only  two  days  out  of  the  seven ;  but  de- 
clared at  the  bar  of  this  House,  that  he  had 
signed  for  the  proceedings  of  the  whole  seven 
days. 

"  That  at  the  general  court  of  comnus- 
sioners  and  governors,  held  on  the  18th  of 
August  1778,  when  the  report  of  the  coni<- 
mittee  was  reeid,  captain  Baillie  in  his  letteSr 
of  that  day  aeain  protested  against  the  pro- 
ceedings of  the  said  committee,  as  well  as  to 
their  being  constituted  of  directors  only,  and 
desired  that  the  general  court  would  them- 
selves review  the  proceedings  of  the  com- 
mittee, offering  immediately  to  produce  befbre 
the  said  general  court,  witnesses  and  affidavits 
to  prove  every  part  of  his  complaints. 

'*  That  at  the  said  general  court,  the  fol- 
lowing Resolutions  were  moved  and  agreed 
to,  viz.  <  That  the  several  charges  contained 
*"  in  captain  Baillie's  book,  which  have  been 
'  examined  into  by  the  committee  appointed 

*  for  that  purpose,  appear  generally  malicious 
'  and  void  of  foundation,  and  tending  to  dis- 
^  turb  the  peace  and  good  government  of  the 
'  Hospital ;  and  that  a  copy  of  the  report  of 

*  the  said  committee  be,  tnerefore,  laid  before 
^  the  lords  commissioners  of  the  AdmiralQr; 
*■  and  that  it  be  submitted  to  their  lordships 
^  whether  for  the  better  government  of  the 
'  Hospital,  it  may  not  be  advisable  to  remove 
'  the  said  captain  Baillie  from  his  employ- 
'  ments  of  lieutenant-governor,  and  one  of  the 

*  directors  thereof.' 

«<  With  respect  to  the  Board  of  Adminl^, 
it  appears, 

<«  That  on  the  18th  of  Au^t  1778^  the 
same  day  on  which  the  lords  of  the  Admumlty 
received  "from  the  general  court  the  report  of 
the  committee,  and  their  advice  to  remove 
captain  Baillie,  their  lordships  immedialdy 
resolved,  '  That  directicms  should  be  ibftli- 
'  with  given  to  sir  Charles  Hardy,  govemor  ^ 


m 

481]         reacting  the  Rof/al  Hosptal  at  GreewooicL    .     A.  D.  1778. 

*  the  said  Hospital,  to  cause  captain  Baillie  to 
'  be  suspended  from  his  cmoloymcntSyboth 
'  ^  lieutenant-governor  and  director,  and  one 

*  of  the  council  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  till 

*  further  order.' 

'*  That  the  said  captain  Baillie  requested, 
by  letter  of  the  14th  of  August,  1778, 
lir.   Stephens,  '  to  move  the  lords  of  the 

*  Admiralty,  to  direct  that  he  might  be  fur- 

*  nished  with  a  copy  of  the  order  by  which 
'  he  was  suspend^'  but  could  never  obtain 
the  same. 

**  That  captain  Baillie  in  his  letter  of  the 
1st  Dec.  1778,  to  the  lords  of  the  Admiralty, 
entreated  to  be  restored  to  his  station  in  the 
aid  Hospital. 

**  That  captadn  Baillie,  in  his  letter  of  the 
8th  Dec.  1778,  to  Mr.  Stephens,  •  requested 

*  that  the  lords  of  the  Admiralty,  or  general 
'  court,  would  give  directions  that  he  might 

*  have  a  true  copy  of  the  report  made  at  the 

*  general  court  on  the  12th  of  August  by  the 

*  committee  of  enquiry,'  but  was  refused  the 
same. 

«  That  on  the  25th  Dec.  1778,  the  lords 
commissioners  of  the  Admiralty  resolved, 
'That the  said  captain  Baillie,  for  his  mis- 
'  behaviour,  as  stated  in  the  report  before 
'  mentioned,  be  removed  from  the  offices  of 
^  lieulenant-^ovemor,  one  of  the  directors, 
^  and  one  of  the  council  of  Greenwich  Hos- 
•pital.* 

**  That  captain  Baillie  applied  for  a  copy  of 
the  order  for  his  removal,  m  his  letter  or  the 
30th  of  January,  but  could  not  obtain  the 


same. 


"  That  it  does  not  appear  that  the  said  cap- 
t^n  Baillie  ever  was  called,  or  appeared  be- 
fore ihfi  said  board  of  Admiralty,  or  was  ever 
l^eard  before  the  s^d  board,  touching  his  com- 
plaints, or  those  made  against  him. 

**  That  it  appears  to  this  committee,  that 
the  words  of  tne  charter  by  *  authorizing  and 

*  impowering  the  board  ot  Admiralty  to  dis- 

*  plaipe,  move,  or  suspend,  any  otiicer  for  his 
'  misbehaviour,'  the  said  board  could  not  le- 
^lly  suspend,  or  remove  the  said  captain 
Baillie  from  the  offices  of  lieutenant-governor, 
one  of  the  directors,  and  one  of  the  council  of 
Greenwich  Hospital,  without  imputing  to  him 
lome  specific  charge  'of  misbehaviour,  and 
hearing  him  in  his  defence,  neither  of  which 
necessary  steps  the  said  board  appear  to  have 
taken  un  the  present  occasion. 

**  That  besides  what  has  already  been  men- 
tioned, under  the  two  heads  of  tne  introduc- 
tion of^  landmen,  and  the  misconduct  of  the 
several  boards  concerned  in  the  management 
of  Greenwich  Hospital,  the  committee  have 
to  observe,  on  the  alterations  which  have  been 
made  in  the  charter  from  the  original  com- 
mission, transferring  to, the  board  of  Admi- 
ral^ the  disposal  of  all  employments  held 
unJer  the  Hospital,  the  recommendation  of 
which  was  by  the  commission  placed  in  the 
pneral  court  of  conomissioiiers.  This  great 
HicreaBc  of  patronage  ta  the  Admiralty^  wbich 

VOL.  XXI. 


[489 

seems  to  have  been  the  main  object  of  the 
charter  obtained  in  1775,  appears^  to  the 
committee  to  be  prejudicial  to  the  good 
government  of  the  saia  Hospital,  in  as  much 
as  it  creates  a  sort  of  mutual  interest  and  con- 
nection between  those  who  ought  to  be  kept 
entirely  se])arate  and  distinct,  the  executive 
officers  of  the  Hospital,  and  those  who  should 
superintend  that  execution,  in  order  to  come 
at  abuses  when  they  exist. 

'*  That  the  said  charter  also  varies  from  the 
driginal  commission  in  other,  and  no  less  ma- 
terial circumstances,  both  of  insertion  and  of 
omission.  New  powers  susceptible  of  abuse 
are  inserted,  and  the  old  provisions  prohibit- 
ing of  abuse  are  omitted ;  two  circumstances, 
which  combined,  appear  to  this  committee  or 
a  very  suspicious  nature.  The  clause  added 
being  the  creation  of  a  power  to  sell,  alienate 
and  exchange  the  estates  and  eftects  of  the 
Hospital,  and  the  clause  omitted  being  a  strict 
charge,  command,  injunction  and  requisition, 
that  none  of  the  said  estates  or  effects  should 
be  diverted,  used,  or  applied,  or  be  in  any 
ways  applicable  to  any  use  or  purpose  what- 
soever, other  than  the  charitable  purposes  of 
the  said  Hospital,  or  to  defray  the  necessary 
charges  relating  thereunto. 

"  The  committee  see  no  necessity  for  these 
alterations,  and  are  of  opinion  that  it  is  better, 
when  an^r  material  changes  in  the  property  ot 
the  Hospital  are  intended,  to  have  recourse  to 
parliament  for  an  act  for  such  particular  pur- 
pose, as  was  lately  the  case  in  an  exchange  of 
lands  between  the  duke  of  Northumberland 
and  Greenwich  Hospital. 

"  That  in  order  to  remedy  the  abuses  bfr- 
fore-mentioned,  to  confine  this  great  navalr 
foundation  to  the  sole  object  for  wnich  it  was 
first  instituted,  the  benefit  of  sea-farine  men, 
and  to  restore  the  spirit  of  the  orieinsu  com- 
mission, from  whicn  the  charter  has-  essen- 
tially deviated,  the  judges  be  directed  to  pre- 
pare a  Bill  for  rescinding  the  charter  for  in- 
corporating the  commissioners  and  governors 
of  the  Royal  Hospital  for  seamen  at  Green- 
wich, bearing  date  the  6th  of  December, 
1775,  and  for  substituting  a  new  charter  in 
lieu  thereof,  restoring  to  me  general  court  of 
commissioners  and  governors  *  the  power  o( 

*  reconimending  to  the  board  of  Admiraltv  sdl 

<  officers  necessary  to  be  employed  in  ana  for 
'  the  said  Hospital,  with  directions  to  the 
*•  board  of  Admiralty  to  employ  all  such  offi* 

*  cers,  accordingly,  except  the  governor  and 

<  treasurer  of  the  said  Hospital,  with  express 

*  provisions,  that  all  such  persons  to  be  so  re- 

<  commended,  and  admitted  into  the  said  Hos- 

*  pital,  as  officers  of  the  house,  or  otherwise, 
'  be  seafaring  meny  or  such  who  shall  have 

<  lost  their  limbs^  or  been  otherwise  disabled 
'  in  the  sea  service,'  as  was  directed  by  his 
Majesty's  commission,  of  the  S8th  of  May, 
1763. 

**  That  if  any  exceptions  to  this  general  rule 
shall  appear  necessajry,  the  same  may  be  spe- 
cified in  the  said  Bill- 

S  I 


483]<  18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thonuu  BaiiUe.         [484 


^  That  no  person  shall  be  deemed  a  sea^ 
faring  man,  and,  as  such,  capable  of  being 
appomted  an  officer  of  the  house,  or  of  being 
lodged  in  Greenwich  Hospital,  unless  such 
person  shall  have,  bona  fide,  served  four  years 
at  sea,  or  shall  have  been  disabled  in  the  sea 
Bervice. 

"  That  all  women  employed  in  the  Hos- 
pital, as  matrons,  nurses,  or  otherwise,  be 
widows  of  seamen.  ^ 

^  That  none  but  such  persons  as  have 
served  as  officers  in  the  royal  navy  be  mem- 
bers of  the  council. 

*^  That  the  general  court  shall  meet  once 
in  every  month,  or  oftener,  if  there  should  be 
occasion. 

''  That  the  commissioners  and  governors 
shall  in  future  consist  of  all  the  flag  officers  of 
his  M^est/s  fleet,  and  none  other. 

^'  That  a  certain  number  of  the  said  flag 
officers  shall  attend  by  rotation,  whilst  they 
remain  on  shore. 

"  That  all  vacancies  shall  be  recommended 
to  be  filled  up  by  such  of  the  members  as  shall 
attend  the  said  general  courts. 

"  That  two  ofthe  flag  officers,  the  governor, 
the  lieutenant-governor,  treasurer,  auditor, 
and  senior  captain,  be  a  court  of  directors, 
for  the  purposes  expressed  in  the  late  com- 
mission. 

^  **  That  the  board  of  Admiralty  shall,  at  all 
times,  have  the  inspection  of  tiie  books  con- 
tainii^  the  proceedmes  of  the  general  court, 
court  of  directors  and  council,  and  shall  re- 
tain the  power  given  them  by  the  charter,  to 
displace,  move,  or  suspend  any  officer,  or  offi- 
cers of  the  s&id  Hospital,  for  his  or  their  mis- 
behaviour, not  excepting  the  governor  or 
treasurer. 

^*  That,  in  consideration  of  captain  BaiUie's 
having  been  illegally  removed  from  the  office, 
by  the  board  of  Admiraltv,  and  of  the  zeal  he 
has  uniformly  shewn  in  the  course  of  17  years 
that  he  has  been  in  the  said  Hospital,  it  is  re- 
conunended  to  the  House  to  address  his  Ma> 
jest]^,  to  confer  on  captain  Baillie  some  mark 
of  ms  royal  favour.'' 

After  a  debate,  the  House  divided  on  the 
motion:  Contents 95;  Not-Contents 67. 


Afler  which,  it  was  resolved, 

1.  ''  That  nothing  hath  appeared  in  the 
course  of  this  enquiry,  which  calls  for  any  in« 
terposition  of  the  legislature,  with  regard  to 
the  management  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  or 
which  makes  the  same  necessary  or  proper. 

S.  ^^  That  the  Book  which  was  referred  to 
this  Committee,  intitled,  'The  Case  of  th^ 
Royal  Hospital  for  Seamen  at  Greenwich,' 
contains  a  groundless  and  malicious  represent 
tation  of  the  conduct  of  the  earl  of  Sandwich, 
and  others,  the  commissioners,  directors,  ana 
officers  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  wiUi  reg^  to 
the  management  thereof. 

3.  ''  That  it  has  appeared  to  this  Commit- 
tee, that  the  revenues  of  Greenwich  Hospital 
have  been  considerably  increased,  the  build- 
ings-much enlarged,  and  renderea  more  com- 
modious, and  the  number  of  pen^oners  greatly 
augmented,  during  the  time  in  which  the  earl 
of  Sandwich  has  been  the  first  lord  of  the  Ad* 
miralty,  who  has,  upon  all  occasions,  shewn 
great  attention  and  impartiality  in  forwarding 
uie  true  end  of  thatnoole  foundation." 

On  June  14th,  the  duke  of  Richmond 
moved,  that  the  proceedinfis  of  the  com- 
mittee, together  with  the  evidence,  should  be 
printed.  This  motion  was,  afler  a  debate,  re- 
jected :  Contents  18 ;  NotContents  43. 

For  a  fuller  account  of  the  debates  in  the 
House  of  Lords,  se6  New  Pari.  Hist.  vol.  10^ 
p.  475. 

In  the  preceding  report  of  the  prooeedingi 
in  the  House  of  Lords,  I  have  suffered  to  re- 
main several  ungrammatical  expressions  which 
occur  in  the  original  publication.  Capt.  Bail- 
lie  in  his '  Solemn  Appeal,'  inserted  some  cor* 
respondence  and  other  matter,  which,  though 
perhaps  highly  interesting  to  his  irritated 
feelings  at  the  time,  form  no  part  of  the  two 
Cases  reported,  and  appear  not  to  me  to  be 
immediately  connected  with  them.  I  have 
therefore  forborne  to  enlarge  the  bulk  of  the 
preceding  voluminous  report  by  the  introdia» 
tion  of  those  particulars. 


485]]  Proceeding*  against  Lord  George  Gordon.  A.  D.  1781* 


[486 


563.  The  Proceedings  at  large  on  (he  Trial  of  George  Gordon^  esq. 
commonly  called  Lord  George  Gordon^  for  High  Treason^  in 
the  Court  of  King's-Bench^  Westminster ;  Before  the  Right 
Hon.  William  Earl  of  Mansfield^  Lord  Chief  Justice ;  Edward 
Willes,  esq.  Sir  William  Henry  Ashhurst^  knt.  and  Francis 
Buller,  esq.  Justices.  On  Monday  and  Tuesday^  February  the 
5th  and  6th  :  21  George  HI.  a.  d.  1781.* 


Aithe  Old  Bailey  sessions,  June,  1780,  and  at 
St  Margaret's  Hill,  under  a  special  com- 
mission of  oyer  and  terminer  and  gaol  de- 
livery (July  lOth^  were  tried  several  per- 
sons charged  witn  committing  divers  out- 
nges  which  had  ensued  upon  Uie  present^ 
tion  of  the  Petition  of  the  Protestant  Asso- 
ciation. The  trials  generally  are  not  adapt- 
ed for  insertion  in  this  work,  but  the  fol- 
lowing Charge  which  was  deUvered  bv  lord 
Looghborough,  C.  J.  C.  B.  Taflerwanu  earl 
of  B^sslyn  s^  LordChancellor)  will  not  be 
nnacceptable  to  the  reader.  I  print  it  from 
titt  Annual  Register  of  the  year. 

**  Gentlemen  of  the  Grand  Jury, 

^  If  you  are  come  here  totally  strangers  to  the 
transactions  which  have  lately  passed  in 
this  neighbourhood,  or  if  it  were  possible 
for  any  of  you,  who  were  not  witnesses  of 
tfaem,  not  to  tuive  heard  of  the  devastations 
that  have  been  committed,  the  remnants  of 
the  flames  which  have  been  lately  blazine 
in  so  many  parts  of  the  metropolis,  and 
which  must  have  presented  themselves  to 
you,  in  your  way  to  this  place,  will  have 
sufficiently  declared  the  occasion  for  which 
you  are  called  together. 

"•  His  majesty's  paternal  care  for  the  welfare 
of  all  his  subjects,  would  not  permit  him  to 
suflSer  offences  so  daring  and  so  enormous 
to  remain  longer  unexCi-mined,  than  was  le- 
^ly  necessarjT  to  convene  a  jury  to  enter 
upon  the  enquiry. 

**  The  commission  under  which  you  are  as- 
sembled extends  only  to  cr'unes  of  high 
treason,  or  of  felonv,  charged  upon  persons 
now  detained  in  the  common  gaol  of  this 
county,  or  who  shall  be  detained  therein 
between  the  present  time  and  the  period  at 
which  the  commission  will  expire.  It  was 
not  thought  proper  to  blend  the  common 
business  of  an  assize,  and  the  examination 
of  those  offences,  to  the  commission  of 
^idiidi  the  frailty  of  human  nature  is  but 
too  liable,  with  crimes  of  so  deep  a  guilt, 
and  so  much  above  the  ordinaiy  pitch  of 


u 


*  IVken  in  sbort-boid  by  Joiepb  Gamey. 

N.  B.  The  foHowfaig  report  is  from  Mr.  Gnmey'* 
9d  Md  4fth  editioiM,  comiMred  fraOi  tke  report  pab- 
liihadbyMr.  BUttohtfd,  mwUmt  ikofS-kMid  wffitor. 


human  wickedness  as  those  which  will 
come  under  vour  consideration. 
The  general  circumstances  under  which 
those  crimes  were  committed,  are  of  too 
great  and  shameful  notoriety,  to  require  a 
minute  description ;  but  for  your  intornu^ 
tton,  eentlemen,  whose  duty  it  will  be  to 
consider  the  nature  and  quality  of  the 
charges  imputed  to  such  ofifenders  as  will 
be  brou(jht  before  you,  it  will  be  necessary 
to  consider  the  several  parts  of  those 
charges,  and  to  observe  the  connection  of 
those  parts  with  the  whole,  always  applying 
the  circumstances  to  the  parttcular  case 
under  consideration. 

'<  I  therefore  think  it  an  essential  part  of  my 
duty  to  lay  before  you,  in  one  eeneral  view,  < 
a  short  account  of  those  (Smgers  from 
which  thii  kingdom  has  been  lately  dehvered. 
I  use  this  expression,  because  it  will  cleady 
appear  that  the  mischief  devised  was — ^not 
the  destruction  of  the  lives  or  fortunes  of 
individuals,  or  of  any  description  of  men — 
no  partial  evil— but  that  the  blow,  which 
it  has  pleased  Providence  to  avcurt,  was 
aimed  at  the  credit,  the  government,  and 
the  very  being  and  constitution  of  this 
state. 

**  The  first  remarkable  circumstance  to  be  at*- 
tended  to,  and  which  naturally  demands 
oiff  notice  eariiest  of  any,  is  a  vast  con- 
Vrourse  of  persons  assembled  in  St.  George's 
Fields  on  the  2d  of  June,  called  together  by 
a  public  advertisement,  (signed  in  the  name 
of^a  person  calling  himself  the  President  of 
an  Association)  not  only  inviting  many 
thousands  to  attend,  but  appointing  their 
ensign  of  distinction,  and  prescribij^  the 
order  and  distribution  of  their  march  in  dif- 
ferent columns  to  the  place  of  their  desti- 
nation. Charity  induces  one  to  believe, 
that  in  such  a  number,  there  were'man^ 
went  unwarily,  and  unconscious  of  any  evil 
intended ;  but  credulity  in  the  extreme  can 
scarcelv  induce  any  man  to  doubt,  that 
some  there  wefe  wfaio  foresaw,  who  intended, 
and  who  had  practised  to  accomplish  the 

rirposes  which  ensued, 
very  short  time^disclosed  that  one  of  the 
purposes  which  this  multitude  was  collected 
to  effectoate,  was  to  overawe  the  legislature, 
to  inftiieaoe  thtir  deiiberatioosy  am  obtain 


487]  21  GEORGE  Ifl.       Proceedings  against  Lord  George  Gordon,      [488 


the  alteration  of  a  law,  by  force  and  num- 
bers. 

^  A  petition  was  to  be  presented  to  the  House 
of  Commons^  for  the  repeal  of  an  act,  in 
which  the  petitioners  had  no  special  in- 
terest. 

"  [His  lordship  here  laid  down  the  right  of 
the  subject,  to  petition.  His  doctripe  upon 
this  head  was  liberal  and  manly,  his  lan- 
guage clear,  strong,  and  emphatical.] 

^  To  petition  for  the  pasting  or  repeal  of  any 
act  (said  his  lordship)  is  the  undoubted  in- 
herent birthright  of  every  British  subject ; 
but  under  the  name  and  colour  of  petition- 
ing, to  assume  command,  and  to  dictate  to 
the  legislature,  is  the  annihilation  of  all 
order  and  government.  Fatal  experience 
had  shewn  the  mischief  of  tumultuous  pe- 
titioning, in  the  course  of  that  contest,  in 
the  reign  of  Charles  the  first,  which  ended 
in  the  overthrow  of  the  monarchy,  and  the 
destruction  of  the  constitution;  and  one  of 
the  first  laws  after  the  restoration  of  legal 
government,  was  a  statute  passed  in  tne 
iSth  year  of  Charles  2,  ch.  5,  enacting, 
that  no  petition  to  the  king,  or  either  house 
of  parliament,  for  alteration  of  matters  es- 
tablished by  law  in  church  or  state,  (unless 
the  matter  thereof  be  approved  by  three 
justices,  or  the  grand  juiy  of  the  county) 
shall  be  signed  by  more  than  twenty 
names,  or  delivered  by  more  than  ten  per- 
sons. 

^  In  opposition  to  this  law.  the  petition  in 

auestion  was  signed  and  delivered  b^many 
lousands ;    aira  in  defiance  of  pnnciples 
more  ancient  and  .more  important   tnan 
an^r  positive  regulations  upon  the  subject  of 
petitioning,  the  desire  of  that  Petition  was 
to  be  effected  by  the  terror  of  the  multi- 
tude  that   accompanied .  it   through  the 
streets,  dassed,  arranged^  and  distinguished 
as  directed  bv  the  advertisement. 
/*  How  the  leaders  of  that  multitude  demean- 
ed themselves,  what  was  the  conduct  of  the 
crowd  to  the  members  of  both  Houses  of 
Parliament,  it  is  not  my  intention  to  state. 
I  purposely  avoid  stating  these  things,  be- 
cause at  the  same  time  that  I  point  out  the 
general  complexion  of  the  transaction, .  and 
relate  generail  facts  that  are  unfortunately 
too  pubUc  and  notorious,  I  choose  to  avoid 
.  icvery  circumstance  that  may  have  a  direct 
and  immediate  relation  to  particular  per- 
sons.   My  piurpose  is  to  inform,  not  to  pre- 
judice or  inflame.    For  this  reason  I  feel 
myself  obliged  to  pass  over  in  silence  all 
such  circumstances  as  cannot,  and  as  ought 
not  to  be  treated  of  or  expressed  but  in 
stronger  language,  and  in  more  indignant 
terms  than  I  choose  at  present  to  employ. 
Towards  the  evening,  the  two  Houses  of 
Parliament  were  released  from  the  state  in 
which  they  had  been  held  for  several  hours. 
The  crowd  seemed  to  disperse.    Many  of 
the  persons  so  assembled,  it  is  not  to  be 
Quoted;  retined  to  their  dwellings,  but 


some  more  desperate  and  active  remained 
to  convince  the  legislature,  that  the  me- 
naces with  which  they  had  invaded  the 
ears  of  all  who  met  them  in  the  streets, 
were  not  fruitless ;  that  they  had  not  aban- 
doned their  purpose,  but  meant  to  carry  it 
into  fiiU  execution.  When  night  fell,  the 
houses  of  two  foreign  ministers  in  ami^ 
with  his  majesty,  were  attacked^  and  their 
chapels  plundered  and  set  on  fire. 

^'  If  such  an  outrage  had  been  committed  on 
one  of  our  pubhc  ministers,  resident  in  any 
of  those  countries  the  most  superstitious 
and  bigotted  t6  its  established '  religion, 
what  reproach  would  it  not  have  cast  upon 
that  country  ?  What  indignation  and  abhor- 
rence would  it  not  have  justiy  excited  in 
our  breasts?  Upon  tiiis  tolerant  and  en- 
lightened land,  has  that  reproach  been 
brought ! 

^  Upon  the  Sd  of  June  there  was  a  seeming 
quiet,  a  very  memorable  circumstance/  for 
sudden  tumults,  when  they  subside,  are 
over.  To  revive  a  tumult,  evinces  some- 
thing of  a  settied  influence,  and  something 
so  like  de»^,  that  it  is  impossible  for  the 
most  candid  mind  not  to  conceive  that 
there  lies  at  the  bottom  a  preconcerted, 
settled  plan  of  operation.  Sunday,  the 
next  dav,  a  day  set  apart  by  the  laws  of 
God  and  man  as  a  day  of  rest,  and -as  a  day 
not  to  be  violated  even  by  the  labours  of 
honest  industry ;  in  broad  sun-shine,  build- 
ings and  private  houses  in  Moorfields  were 
attacked  and  entered^  and  the  furniture  de- 
liberately brought  out  and  consumed  by 
bonfires.  And  all  this  was  done  in  the  Tnew 
^patient  magistrates  ! 

^^  Some  magistnites  and  some  individuals  had 
indeed  in  the  beginning  of  the  disturbances 
exerted  themselves,  and  several  who  bad 
been  active  in  the  demolition  of  the  am- 
bassadors* houses  had  been  committed. 
On  Monday  the  mob,  who  had  not  been 
resisted,  but  had  proceeded  with  a  success 
which  had  increased  their  impetuosity, 
thbught  it  necessary  to  shew  that  the  law 
shoujcl  not  be  exercised  with  impunity  on 
delinquents  like  themselves.  It  was  the 
business  of  Monday  to  destroy  the  houses 
of  the  magistrates,  and  other  persons  who 
had  been  instrumental  in  apprehending 
them;  but  these  outrages,  great  as  they 
were,  fell  far  short  of  those  committed  on  the 
Tuesday  and  Wednesday,  which  will  ever 

-  remsdna  stain  on  our  annals.  Fresh  in- 
sults of  the  most  daring  and  aggravated  na- 
ture, were  offered  to  parliament,  and  eveiy 
one,  who  was  in  London  at  the  time,  must 
remember,  that  it  bore  the  appearance  of  a 
town  taken  by  storm ;  every  quarter  was 
alarmed;  neither  age,  nor  sex,  nor  emi- 
nence of  station,  nor  sanctity  of  character, 
nor  even  an  Humble  though  honest  ob- 
scurity, were  any  protection  against  the 
malevolent  Airy  and  destructive  rage  of  tte 
lowest  and  worst  of  men. 


489] 


for  High  Treason* 


A.  D.  1781. 


[490 


''But  it  was  not  i^inst  individuals  alone, 
that  their  operations  were  now  directed. 
What  has  ever  been  in  all  aees,  and  in  all 
countries,  the  last  effort  of  the  most  despe- 
rate conspirators,  was  now  their  object. 
The  jails  were  attacked,  the  felons  released 
— ^men  whose  lives  their  crimes  had  for- 
feited to  the  justice  of  the  law,  were  set 
loose  to  join  their  impious  hands  in  the 
work. 

"  The  city  was  fired  in  different  parts.  The 
flames  were  kindled  in  the  houses  most 
likely  to  spread  the  conflagration  to  distant 
quarters,  the  distillers,  and  other  places, 
where  the  instruments  of  trade  upon  the 
premises  were  sure  to  afford  the  largest 
quantity  of  combustible  matter !  And  in  the 
midst  of  this  horror  and  confusion,  in  order 
more  effectually  to  prevent-the  extinguish- 
ing of  the  flames,  an  attempt  to  cut  off  the 
Kew  River  water,  and  an  attack  on  the 
credit  of  the  kingdom,  by  an  attempt 
against  the  Bank  of  England,  were  made. 
Both  these  .attempts  were  defeated,  provi- 
dentially defeated;  but  they  were  made 
under  circumstances  which  evince  that  they 
were  intended  to  be  effectual,  and  which 

-  increase  the  satis&ction  and  the  gratitude 
to  Providence  that  every  man  must  feel, 
when  he  recollects  the  fortunate  circum- 
stance of  their  having  been  deferred  till 
that  stage  of  the  business. 

'*  In  four  days,  hy  the  incredible  activity  of 
this  band  of  fiiries  parading  the  streets  of 
the  metropolis  with  naming  torches,  72  pri- 
vate houses  and  four  public  gaols  were  de- 
slroyed,  one  of  them  the  county  gaol,  and 
that  built  in  such  a  manner  as  to  justify 
the  idea,  that  it  was  impregnable  to  an 
armed  force.  Religion,  the  sacred  name  of 
religion,  and  of  that  purest  and  most  peace- 
able system  of  Chnstianity,  the  Protes- 
tart  Church,  was  made  the  profane  pre- 
text for  assaulting  the  government,  tramp- 
ling upon  the  laws  of  the  country,  and  vio- 
lating the  first  great  precept  of  Uieir  duty 
to  God  and  to  their  neighbour, — the  pre- 
text only ;  for  there  is  not,  I  am  swe,  in 
Europe,  a  man  so  weak,  so  uncandid,  or  so 
unjust  to  the  character  of  the  reformed 
church,  as  to  believe,  that  any  religious 
motive  could  by  any  perversion  of  human 
reason  induce  men  to  attack  the  magis- 
trates, release  felons,  destroy  the  source  of 
public  credit,  and  lay  in  ashes  the  capital  of 
the  Protestant  Faith  ! 
^  I  have  now  related  to  you  the  lise  and  pro- 

fress  of  that  calamity,  from  which,  by  the 
lessing  of  Providence  upon  his  majesty's 
efforts  for  our  preservation,  this  kingdom 
hath  been  delivered — a  situation  unparallel- 
ed in  the  history  of  our  country — no  com- 
motion ever  having  had  a  more  desperate 
and  more  fatal  intention.  It  now  remains 
to  state  to  ^ou  what  parts  of  this  subject 
.  "Will  more  directly  call  for  your  attention ; 
and  as  it  is  evident  froqi  what  I  have  said  j 


that  amone  the  number  of  persons  whose 
cases  will  be  submitted  to  your  considera* 
tion,  there  may  be  some  who  are  accused 
with  the  guilt  of  high  treason,  it  will  be  ne- 
cessary and  proper  to  state  the  law  with  re- 
spect to  those  species  of  treason  under 
which  some  of  the  cases  may  probably  fall. 
There  are  two  species  of  treason  applica- 
ble. To  imagine  or  compass  the  death  of 
our  sovereign  lord  the  kme,  is  high  treason. 
To  levy  war  against  the  king  within  the 
realm,  is  also  high  treason. 

**  The  first,  that  of  compassing  the  death  of 
the  king,  must  be  demonstrated  by  some 
overt  act,  as  the  means  to  eftect  the  pur- 
pose of  the  heart ;  the  fact  of  levying  war 
IS  an  overt  act  of  this  species  of'^ treason, 
but  it  is  also  a  distinct  species  of  treason. 
And  as  the  present  occasion  calls  more 
immediately  tor  it,  I  must  state  to  you 
more  fiilly,  in  what  that  treason  may  con- 
sist. 

"  I  am  peculiarly  happy,  that  I  am  enabled 
to  state  the  law  on  the  subject,  not  from 
an}r  reasonines  or  deductions  of  my  own, 
which  are  liable  to  error,  and  in  which  a 
change  or  inaccuracy  of  expression  might 
be  productive  of  much  mischief;  but  from 
the  first  authority,  firom  which  my  mouth- 
•  only  will  be  employed  in  pronouncing  the 
law.  I  shall  state  it  to  vou  m  the  woras  of 
that  great,  able,  and  learned  judge,  Mr. 
Justice  Foster,  that  true  friend  to  the  liber- 
ties of  his  country. 

"  *  Every  insurrection  which  in  judgment  of 
law  is  intended  against  the  person  of  the 
kine,  be  it  to  dethrone  or  imprison  him,  or 
to  oblige  him  to  alter  his  measures  of  go- 
vernment, or  to  remove  evil  counsellors 
from  about  him, — ^these  risings  all  amount 
to  levying  war  within  the  statute,  whether 
attended  with  the  pomp  and  circumstances 
of  open  war  or  not  And  every  conspiracy 
to.  levy  war  for  these  purposes,  though  not 
treason  within  the  clause  of  levying  virar,  is 
yet  an  overt-act  within  the  other  clause  of 
compassing  the  king's  death. 

**  *  Insurrections  in  oiSer  to  throw  down  all 
inclosures,  to  alter  the  established  law,  or 
change  religion,  to  inhance  the  price  of  all 
labour,  or  to  open  all  prisons — all  risings  in 
order  to  effect  these  innovations  of  a  public 
and  a  general  armed  forcey  are,  in  construc- 
tion of  law,  high  treason,  within  the  clause 
of  levying  War.  For  though  they  are  not 
levelled  at  the  person  of  the  king,  they  are 
against  kit  royal  maieUy ;  and  besides,  they 
have  a  direct  tendency  to  dissolve  all  the 
bonds  of  society,  and  to  destroy  all  pro- 
perty and  government  too,  by  numbers  and 
an  armed  force.  Insurrections  likewise 
for  redressing  national  grievances,  or  for 
the  expulsion  of  foreigners  in  general,  or 
indeed  of  any  single  nation  hving  here 
under  the  protection  of  the  king,  or  for  Uie 
reformation  of  real  or  imaginary  evils  of  a 
have  no  special  interest, — risings  to  effect 


491] 


21  GEORGE  III.      Proceedings  againH  Lord  George  Gordon^      [498 


public  nature,  and  in  which  ike  insurgents 
thefie  ends  by  force  and  numbers,  are^  by 
coDstruction  of  law,  within  the  clause  of 
levying  war.  For  Uiey  are  levelled  at  the 
long's  crown  and  royal  dignity.' 

^  In  order  iiilly  to  explain  tnb,  it  will  be  only 
necessary  to  collect,  repeat,  and  enforce  the 
several  passages  in  Mr.  Justice  Foster,  re- 
lative to  this  subject.  It  may  occur  that 
in  several  places  mention  is  made  of  an 
armed  force..  In  the  very  same  chapter, 
from  which  I  have  read  an  extract,  the 
learned  judge  mentions  two  remaxkable 
cases  in  the  latter  end  of  the  reign  of  queen 
Anne. 

^  '  In  the  cases  of  Damaree  and  Purchase, 
which  are  the  last  printed  cases'  which 
have  come  in  judgment  on  the  point  of 
constructive  levying  war,  there  was  nothing 
given  in  evidence  oi  the  usual  pageantry  oT 
war,  no  military  weapons,  no  Imnners  or 
drums,  nor  any  regular  consultation  pre- 
vious to  the  rising ;  and  yet  the  want  of 
these  circumstances  weighed  nothing  with 
the  court,  though  tlie  prisoners'  counsel 

.  insisted  on  that  matter.  The  number  of 
the  insurgents  supplied  the  want  of  military 
weapons ;  and  they  were  provided  with  axes, 
crows,  and  other  tools  of  the  like  nature, 
proper  for  the  mischief  they  intended  to 
eflfect'* 

^  It  is  remarkable,  that  the  men  who  were 
the  leaders,  or  set  on  as  part  of  that  mob, 
likewise  assembled  under  pretence  of  reli- 
^on,  and  the  false  and  wicked  cry  then 
was,  that  the  church  of  England  toas  in  dan^ 
gery  on  account  of  the  just  and  humane  in- 
dulgence, which,  from  the  happy  period  of 
the  Revolution,  had  been  granted  to  dissen- 
ters. 

*<  *  Upon  the  trial  of  Damaree,  the  cases  re- 
ferred to  before,  were  cited  at  the  bar,  and 
all  the  judges  present  were  of  opinion,  that 
the  prisoner  was  guilty  of  the  high  treason 
charged  upon  him  in  the  indictment.  For 
here  was  a  rbing  with  an  avowed  inten- 
tion to  demolish  all  meeting-houses  in  ge- 
neral ;  and  this  intent  they  carried  into  exe- 
cution as  far  as  they  were  able.  If  the 
xneeting-houses of  Protestant  dissenters  had 
been  erected  and  supported  in  defiance  of 
all  law^  a  risins  in  order  to  destroy  such 
houses  m  genenU,  would  have  fallen  under 
the  rule. laid  down  in  Keiling,  with  r^ard 
16  the  demolishing  all  bawdy-houses.  But 
unce  the  meeting-houses  of  Protestant  dis- 
senters are  by  the  Toleration  Act  taken 
under  the  protection  of  the  law,  the  insur- 
rection in  the  present  case  was  to  be  consi- 
dered as  a  puolic  declaration  by  the  rab- 
ble against  that  act,  and  an  attempt  to 
render  it  ineffectual  by  numbers  and  open 
force.' 

**  The  objects  of  their  attack  were  the  meet- 
iog-houses  of  the  dissenters;  they  were 
considered  by  the  judges  to  have  ({eelared 
themselves  against  the  act  by  wluch  the 


indulgences  were  granted,  lUid  as  attempt- 
ing to  render  it  ineffectual  by  numbers  and 
open  force,  and  on  that  ground  Mr.  Justice 
Foster  declares  the  jud^entto  be  proper ; 
all  the  judges  cpncurred  in  it  at  the  time,  it 
has  been  respected  by  posterity,  and  its 
principle  is  necessary  for  the  preservation 
of  the  constitution,  which  we  cannot  but 
have  felt  the  value  of,  in  that  moment 
when  we  have  seen  it  threatened  with,  and 
in  imminent  danger  of,  immediate  dissolu- 
tion. 

<'  The  calendar  points  out  a  number  of  pii. 
soners  who  may  be  indicted  (as  appws 
from  their  commitments)  for  burnii^  and 
pulling  down,  or  beginning  to  set  me  to, 
and  pull  down,  the  King's-bench  prison, 
the  House  of  Correction,  and  nine  dwelling 
houses  within  the  county;  others  may  be 
charged  with  breaking  open  the  gaols,  and 
releasing  the  prisoners ;  others  again  may 
be  charged  with  extorting  money  from  in- 
dividuals, under  terror  or  the  mob,  which 
is  clearly  and  incontroyertibly  a  robbery. 
As  some  of  you,  gentlemen,  are  bv  your 
professions,  and  all  of  you  undoubtedly 
from  your  rank  and  station,  acquainted 
with  the  ordinary  administration  of  crimi- 
nal justice,  it  is  unnecessary  for  me  to  en- 
large on  the  subject  of  these  felcmies. 

**  Burning  a  house,  or  out-house,  bein^  parcel 
of  a  dwelling-house,  though  not  contiguous^ 
nor  under  the  same  root,  was  a  felony  at 
the  common  law,  and  by  statute,  the  benefit 
of  clergy  was  taken  away. 

**  To  set  fire  to  any  house,  or.  out-house, 
though  it  b  not  burnt,  is  made  a  capital 
felony,  by  9  Geo.  1,  chap.  39.  And  by  sta- 
tute 1  Geo.  1,  chap.  5,  called  The  Riot  Act, 
the  offence  of  beginning  to  puU  down  build- 
ings, by  12,  or  more  persons,  is  made  a  ca- 
pital felony.  And  having  mentioned  the 
riot  act,  let  me  say  a  few  words  upon  it. 

"  The  two  cases  which  I  have  stated,  were 
very  near  this  period,  and  the  same  perni- 
cious principles  which  had  been  instilled 
into  the  minds  of  the  lowest  orders  of  the 
people,  were  kept  alive  by  the  arts  of  fac- 
tion. 

'^  It  is  not  leas  true  than  remarkable,  that  the 
same  seditious  spirit  which  had  artfully 
been  instilled  into  the  people  in  the  latt^ 
end  of  queen  Anne's  time,  had  been  conti- 
nued to  this  time  (the  accession),  and  what 
a  few  years  beforo  had  been  miscalled  a 
Protestant  nujh,  was  now  a  mob  trained,  ex- 
cited, and  actually  employed  to  defeat  the 
Protestant  succession.  In  ever^  mug- 
boose,  in  every  dark  alley,  and  lurking  cor- 
ner of  sediticA,  in  this  great  town,  artfid 
and  designing  men  were  engaged  in  excit- 
ing this  mob  to  the  destruction  of  the  con- 
stitution, and  therefore  this  act  was  framed 
to  make  the  beginning  of  mischief  danger- 
ous to  the  perpetrators  of  it  To  begin  to 
pull  down  any  place  of  reli^ous  worship^ 
certified  and  registered  by  the  Act  of  Tokiiir 


495] 


for  High  Treason. 


A.  D.  1781. 


[4M 


tloDy  or  any  dwellii^-house  of  otit-hoiue, 
'was  made  a  capital  felony.  And  any  per- 
sons to  Uie  number  of  twelve  or  more,  un- 
lawfully^ riotously,  and  tumultuously  assem- 
bledy  bems  commanded  or  required  to  dis- 
perse by  tne  magistrate,  and  continuing  to- 
gether for  one  nour  after  such  command, 
are  declared  guilty  of  felony  without  benefit 
of  clergy.        • 

*  But  here  I  take  this  public  opportunity  of 
mentioning  a  &tal  mistake  into  which  many 
persons  have  &llen.  It  has  been  imagined, 
because  the  law  allows  an  hour  for  the  dis- 
persion of  a  mob  to  whom  the  Riot-act  has 
Deen  read  by  the  magistrate,  the  better  to 
support  the  civil  authority,  that  during  that 
period  of  time^  the  civil  power  and  the  ma- 
gistracy are  disarmed^  and  the  king's  sub- 
jects, whose. duty  it  is  at  all  times  to  sup- 
press riots,  are  to  remain  quiet  and  passive. 
No  such  meaning  was  within  the  view  of 
the  legislature ;  nor  does  the  operation  of 
the  act  warrant  any  such  effect.  The  civil 
magistrates  are  len  in  possession  of  those 
powers  which  the  law  had  given  them  be- 
fore ;  if  the  mob  collectively,  or  a  part  of  it, 
or  any  individual,  within  and  before  the  ex- 
piration of  that  hour,  attempts  or  bedns  to 
perpetrate  an  outrage  amounting  to  Jelony, 
to  pull  down  a  house|  or  by  any  other  act  to 
violate  the  laws,  it  is  the  duty  of  all  pre- 
sent, of  whatever  description  uiey  may  be, 
to  endeavour  to  stop  the  mischief,  and  to 
^prebend  the  offender.  I  mention  this, 
rawer  for  general  information,  than  for  the 
particular   instruction  of  the   gentlemen 

.  whom  I  have  now  the  honour  of  addressing, 
because  the  Riot-act  I  do  not  believe  wm 
come  immediately  under  your  considerar> 
tion:  fame  has  not  reported  that  it  was 
any  where,  or  at  any  time,  read  during  the 
kle  disturbances. 
"  In  all  cases  of  bisming  or  pulling  down 
buildii^,  ibe  being  present,  aiding,  abet- 
ting, and  encouragmg  the  actual  actors, 
thoueh  ihcn  be  no  act  proved  to  be  done 
hv  the  party  himself,  is  a  capital  felony. 
Tnis  is  a  doctrine  solemnly  dehyered  lately 

•  by  the  iudges,  and  I  believe  will  never  be 
doubted. 

^Taking  goods  or  money  against  the  will, 
under  the  terror  of  a  mob,  is  felony. 

^  Of  aU  these  offences  you  are  to  enquire,  and 
true  ppesentments  make. 

''The  character  and  esteem  in  which  the 
eentlemen  I  have  now  the  honour  of  ad- 
oressing  are  justly  held  by  their  country, 
render  any  admonition  from  me  on  the 
subject  of  your  duty  superfluous ;  in  you  it 
hss  long  placed  a  confidence,  nor  will  it,  I 
am  persuaded,  on  this  occasion,  have  rea- 
son to  repent  it. 

**  I  have  to  remind  you,  that  it  is  your  duty 
only  to  enquires  whether  the  party  accused 
is  cha^d  with  such  probable*  circum- 

*  BtttM  to  this  Me  HawW*!  ObferTfttions  on 


Stances  as  to  justify  you  in  sending  him 
to  another  jury^  who  are  appointed  by  law 
to  hear  the  evidence  on  botn  sides,  and  to 
say,  whether  the  person  charged  be  guilQr 
or  not  of  the  crime  imputed  to  him  in  the 
indictment ;  and  if  upon  such  trid,  any  ad- 
vantage can  be  derived  from  the  nicety  or 
caution  of  the  law,  or  any  favourable  cir- 
cumstances appear,  it  will  be  as  much  the 
inclination,  as  it  is  the  duty  of  the  learned 
and  reverend  judges  with  whom  I  have  the 
honour  of  being  in  commission,  to  state 
such  circumstances. 

'*  And  if  the  laws  declare  them  guilty,  the 
offenders  may  still  have  recourse  to  that 
fountain  of  mercy,  the  royal  breast, 
where  justice  is  always  tempered  with  cle- 
mency. 

^  Such  is  the  inestimable  blessing  of  a  go- 
vernment founded  on  law,  that  it  extends 
its  benefits  to  all  alike,  to  the  guilty  and 
the  innocent.  To  the  latter  the  law  is  a 
protection  and  a  safe>^suard ;  to  the  former 
it  is  not  a  protection,  mit  it  may  be  consi- 
dered as  a  house  of  refii^ ;  indeed  tiiere 
cannot  be  a  ^eater  proofof  the  excellence 
of  that  constitution,  than  by  administering 
its  benefits  to  all  men  indifferently.'' 

**  This  charge  having  been  the  topic  of  much 
conversation,  we  submit  it  to  the  judg- 
ment of  our  readers.  Tlie  opinions  of  men 
respecting  the  legal  propriety  of  it  have 
been  various :  as  a  piece  of  oratory  it  haa 
been  admired ;  but  its  tendency  to  influ- 
ence and  direct  the  jury,  and  inflame  their 
passions  against  men,  who  ought  all  to 
nave  been  supposed  innocent  till  found 
guilty  by  their  country,  has  been  generally 
spoken  of  in  terms  of  indignation,  l)y  those 
who  are  jealous  of  the  rishts  of  humanity.^ 

Annual  RegUter* 


Lord  GEORGE  Gordon  was  appre- 
hended on  the  9th  of  June,  upon  a  warrant 
under  the  hand  of  one  of  lus  majesty's  secro^ 
taries  of  state  for  high  treason,  and  was  eooa- 
mitted  a  close  prisoner  to  the  Tower; 

On  the  first  day  of  Michaelmas  term  bis 
lordship  applied  to  the  court  of  Kingfs-beDch 
by  petition,  founded  upon  the  Habeas  Corpus 
act,  to  be  either  tried  or  set  at  liber^.  A 
few  <kys  afier  in  the  same  term,  the  follow- 
ing indictment  was  presented  to  the  grand 
jury  for  the  county  of  Middlesex,  who  re- 
turned it  into  the  court  of  King's-bench  a 
true  bill : 

"  Middlesex.  The  jurdrs  for  our  lord  the 
king,  upon  their  oath  present.  That  George 
Gordon,,  late  of  the  pansh  of  Saint  Mary-Ie- 

-^ ■ 

kwd  Skilld>ivjf'»Gvind  Jarj,  vol.  8,  pp.  8d5,  et  iff. 
See  elw,  vd.  8,  p.  8S2»  aod  Ike  celebrated  "  Seou- 
ritj  of  Engliabmen'i  Lives/*  &c  ucribed  to  lord 
Sommers,  and  mentioned  in  that  page. 


495] 


21  GEORGE  III.      Proceedings  against  Lord  George  Gordon^      [49tf 


bone,  otherwise  Marybone,  in  the  county  of 
Middlesex^   esquire,    commonly  called  lord 
George  Gordon,  being  a  subject  of  our  sove- 
reign lord  George  the  third,  by  the  grace  of 
God  of  Great  Britain,  France,  and  Ireland, 
king,  defender  of  the  faith,  &c.  not  having 
the  fear  of  God  before  his  eyes,  nor  weighing 
the  duty  of  his  allegiance,  but  bein^  moved 
and  seduced  by  the  instigation  of  tne  devil, 
and  entirely  withdrawing  the  love,  and  true 
and  due  ooedience  which  every  subject  of 
our  said  sovereign  lord  the  king,  should,  and 
of  right  ought  to  bear  towards  our  present 
sovereign  lord  the  king,  and  wickedly  devis- 
ing and  intending  to  disturb  the  peace  and 
public  tranquillity  of  this  kingdom,  on  the 
Snd  day  of  June,  m  the  20th  year  of  the  reim 
of  our  sovereign  lord  the  now  king,  at  the 
parish  of  Saint  Margaret^  within  the  liberty 
of  Westminster,  in  the  said  county  of  Middle 
sex,  unlawfully,  maliciously,  and  traitorously, 
did  compass,  imagine,  and  intend  to  raise  and 
levy  war,  insurrection,  and  rebellion,  against 
our  said  lord  the  kins,  within  this  Kingdom 
of  Great  Britain ;  aj[ia  to  fulfil  and  bring  to 
effect  the  said  traitorous  compassines,  ima^ 
ginations,  and  intentions  of  nim  me  said 
George  Gordon,  he,  the  said  George  Gor- 
don, afterwards  (that  is  to  say)  on  the  said 
9nd  day  of  June,  in  the  80th  year  aforesaid, 
with  force  and  arms.  &c.  at  the  said  parish  of 
Saint  Margaret,  within  the  liberty  of  West- 
minster, in  the  said  county  of  Middlesex, 
with  a  great  multitude   of  persons   whose 
names  are  at  present  unknown  to  the  jurors 
aforesaid,  to  a  great  number,  to  wit,  to  the 
number  of  600  persons  and  upwards,  armed 
and  arrayed  in  a  warlike  manner  Tthat  is  to 
Bay)  with  colours  flying,  and  with  clubs,  blud- 
geons, staves,  and  other  warlike  weapons,  as 
well  offensive  as  defensive,  being  then  and 
there  unlawfully,  maliciously,  and  traitorously 
assembled,  ana   gathered  together^   against 
our  said  sovereign  lord  the  king,  most  wicked- 
ly, maliciously,  and  trutorouSy  did  ordain, 
prepare,  and  levy  public  war  against  our  said 
lora  the  king,  his  supreme  and  undoubted 
lord,  contrary  to  the  auty  of  his  allegiance, 
against  the  peace  of  our  Wd  lord  the  king, 
his  crown  and  dignity ;   and  also  against  the 
form  of  the  statute  in  such  case  made  and 
provided.     And  the  jurors  aforesaid,  upon 
their  oath  aforesaid,  further   present,  That 
the  sud  George  Goraon,  being  a  subject  of 
our  sovereign  lord  George  the  third,  by  the 
grace  of  God,  of  Great  Britain,  France  and 
Ireland,  kin^,  defender  of  the  faith,  &c.  not 
having  the  fear  of  God  before  his  eyes,  but 
being  moved  apd  seduced  by  the  instigation 
of  the  devil,  and  entirely  withdrawing  the 
love  and  true  and  due  obeoience,  which  every 
subject  of  our  said  sovereign  lord  the  king 
should  and  of  right  ought  to  bear  towards  our 
said  present  sovereign  lord  the  king,  and 
wickedly  devising  and  intending  to  disturb 
the  peace  and  public  tranquillity  of  this  Idng- 
dom ;    afterwards,  to  wi^  on  the  ssud  2nd 


day  of  June,  in  the  20th  year  of  the  reign  of 
our  said  sovereign  lord  the  now  king,  aiM  on 
divers  other  days  and  times  between  that  day 
and  the  10  th  day  of  the  same  month  of  June, 
at  the  said  parish  of  Saint  Margaret  within 
tiie  liberty  of^  Westminster  in  the  said  county 
of  Middlesex,  unlawfully,  maliciously,  and 
traitorously  did  compass,  imagine,  and  intend 
to  raise  and  levy  war.  insurrqption,  and  rebel- 
lion ao:ainst  our  said  lord  tiie  kin^,  within 
this  kingdom  of  Great  Britain,  ana  to  fulfil 
and  bring  to  effect  the  said  last  mentioned 
traitorous  compassings,  imaginations,  and  in- 
tentions of  lum  the  said  George  Gordon, 
he  the  said  George  Gordon,  on  the  said  2nd 
day  of"  June,  in  the  20 Ih  year  aforesaid,  and 
on  divers  other  days  and  times,  between  that 
day  and  the  J  0th  day  of  the  same  month 
of  June,  with  force  and  arms,  &c.  at  the  said 
parish  of  Saint  Margaret,  within  the  liberty 
of  Westminster,  in  the  said  county  of  Middle- 
sex, with  a  great  multitude  of  persons  whose 
names  are  at  present  unknown  to  the  jurors 
aforesaid,  to  a  great  number,  to  wit,  to  the 
number  of  200  persons  and  upwards,  armed 
and  arrayed  in  a  warlike  manner  (that  is  to 
say)  with  colours  flying,  and  with  swords, 
clubs,  bludgeons,  staves,  and  other  weapons, 
as  well  offensive  as  defensive,  being  then  and 
there  unlawfully,  maliciously,  and  traitorously 
assembled  and  gathered  together  ag^nst  our 
said  present  sovereign  lord  the  king ;  most 
wickedly,  maliciously,  and  traitorous^  did  or- 
dstiu,  prepare,  and  levy  public  war  against  our 
said  lord  the  king,  his  supreme  and  undoubt- 
ed lord,  contrary  to  the  duty  of  his  allegiadce, 
against  the  peace  of  our  sud  lord  the  king, 
his  crown  and  dignity,  and  also  against  the 
form  of  the  statute  in  such  case  made  and 
provided." 

On  the  25th  of  January,  1781,  the  prisoner, 
by  virtue  of  a  Habeas  Corpus,  directed  to  the 
lieutenant  of  the, Tower  upon  the  motion  of 
Mr.  Attorney  General,  was  brought  up  to  the 
bar  of  the  court  of  Kin^Vbench,  and  pleaded 
Not  Guilty  to  his  indictment,  and  the  Court 
appointed  the  Trial  for  Monday  the  5th  of 
FeDruary. 


Monday y  February  5, 1781. 

The  Court  being  0{>ened  and  the  prisoner 
set  to  the  bar,  the  jurors  returned  by  the 
sheriff  were  called  into  court : 

William  Atwick,  of  Portman-square,  esq. 
not  being  a  freeholder  of  the  county  of  Mid- 
dlesex, he  was  rejected  as  a  juror. 

William  Feast,  of  the  City-road,  esq.  and 
brewer,  excused  on  account  of  illness. 

Roger  Grixlin,  of  Islington-road,  esq.  chal* 
lenged  by  the  prisoner. 

John  Dawes,  of  Islington^  esq.  and  stock 
broker,  challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

Nathaniel  Ciackson,  of  Islington^  esq^ 
challei^ed  by  the  prisoner. 


m 


for  High  Treason. 


Thomas  Saunders,  of  Highgate,  esq.  not  a 
teboider. 

James  Ring,  of  Mortimer-street,  esq.  not  a 
freeholder. 

Heniy  Horace  Hayes,  of  Percy-street,  esq. 
excused  by  consent,  both  of  iht  counsel  for 
the  crown  and  the  prisoner. 

John  Peter  Blaquire,  of  Hampstead,  esq. 
«nd  stock-broker,  challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

Robert  Vincent,  of  Hampstead,  esq.  and 
Brewer,  challenged  by  the  crown. 

Thomas  Collins,  ot  Berners-street,  esq.  and 
surveyor,  sworn. 

Thomas  Parry,  of  Berners-street,  esq.  not 
a  freeholder. 

Henry  de  la  Mayne,  of  Berners-street,  esq. 
and  wine  merchant,  not  a  freeholder. 

Henry  Hastings,  of  Queen  Ann-street,  esq. 
twom. 

James  Calvert,  of  Old-street,  esq.  and 
lioegar  merchant,  challenged  by  the  pri- 
soBer. 

John  Horsley,  of  Haberdasher's-walk,  esq. 
challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

George  Fnend,  of  St  James's-walk,  Clerk- 
enweU,  esq.  and  dyer,  not  a  freeholder. 

John  Marshall,  of  Uolywell-street,  esq.  and 
brewer,  cliallenged  by  the  prisoner. 

Thomas  Proctor,  of  Holvwell-strcet,  esq. 
and  brewer,  challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

Ridianf  Barker,  of  Caroline-street,  esq.  not 
$  freeholder. 

William  Harrison,  of  Lamb's  ConduitrStreet, 
esa.  not  a  freeholder. 

Matthew  Carrett,  of  Hatton-street,  esq.  and 
nerchant,  not  a  freeholder. 

Thomas  Brown,  of  Arundel-street,  esq. 
challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

Thomas  Bray,  ot  Bedford-street,  esq.  chal- 
le^ed  by  the  prisoner. 

£iward  Hulse,  of  Harley-street,  esq.  sworn. 

Thomas  Ahmuty,  of  Queen-street,  esq.  not 
4L  freeholder. 

Barington  Bnsgin,  of  Harpur-street,  mer- 
chant, not  a  freeholder. 

Edward  Pomfret,  of  New  North-street, 
wme  merchant,  sworn. 

Joseph  Spacaman,  of  Hackney,  esq.  not  a 
ftecbofder. 

Gedeliah  Gatfidd,  of  Hackney,  esq.  sworn. 

Robert  Mackey,  of  Hackney,  esq.  chal- 
lei^ed  by  the  crown. 

^seph  Pickfes,  of  Homerum,  esq.  sworn. 

Cecil  Pitt,  of  Poleston,  esq.  not  a  free- 
llolder. 

Peter  Mestaer,  of  Bethnal-green,  esq.  and 
^hvp^builder,  challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

Charles  Dishy,  the  younger,  of  Mile-end* 
tflMUi,  esq.  chdleng6d  by  the  prisoner. 

Thomas  Sayer,  6f  Bow,  esq.  not  a  free- 
DoMer. 

Edwax^  Gordon,  ct  BiYnnley,  esq.  and  dis- 
tfflei^  sworn. 

John  MUwanL  of  firomley,  esq.  and  dis- 
tiBer^  dialienged  by  the  raisoner. 

William  Iralingy  of  broml^j  esq.  dial- 
Icsged  by  tile  crown. 

VOL.  XXL 


A.  D.  1781.  [498' 

^ohn  Perry,  of  Blackwall,  esq.  and  ship] 
builder,  challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

Joseph  Hankey,  of  Blackwall,  esq.  and 
ship-builder,  challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

Arthur  Shakespear,  of  Church-street,  Step- 
ney, esq.  and  ropo-maker,  challenged  by  the 
pnsoner. 

Robert  Buttery,  of  White-chapel,  esq.  and 
coro-chandler,  challenged  bv  the  crown. 

Thomas  Flight,  of  Hackney,  esq.'  chal- 
lenged by  the  crown. 

Marmaduke  Peacock,  of  Hackney,  6sq«, 
sworn. 

Nathaniel  Paul,  of  Clapton,  esq.  not  a  ftee* 
holder. 

Francis  Degan,  of  Hammersmith,  esq» 
sworn. 

James  Scott,  of  Hammersmith,  esq.  chat 
lenged  by  the  crown. 

Simon  Le  Sage,  of  Hammersmith,  e^.  and 
silver-smith,  sworn. 

Steohcn  Pitt,  of  Kensington,  esq.  chal^ 
leneea  by  the  prisoner. 

Robert  Lsthrapp,  of  Kensington,  esq*  not  a 
freeholder. 

Thomas  Ayliffe,  of  Kensington,  esq.  not  c 
freeholder. 

Robcst  Armitage,  of  Kensington',  esq. 
sworn. 

James  Trimmer,  the  youneer,  of  Old  Brent- 
ford, esq.  and  brick-maker,  challenged  by  thv 
prisoner. 

Thomas  Bmnley,  of  Aolon,  esq.  efaallenged 
by  the  prisoner. 

John  Bullock,  of  Kensington,  esq.  not  a 
freeholder.         ' 

Thomas  Moore,  of  Ken^gton,  esq.  not  a 
freeholder.      * 

Edward  Ellicott,  of  Homsey,  esq.  and 
watch-maker,  challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

Henry  Adkins^  of  Lambs  Conduit-street^ 
carpenter,  not  a  freeholder. 

Robert  Walford,  of  St  JamesVwalk,  Clerk* 
enwell,  brewer,  not  a  freeholder. 

Joseph  Manwarins,  of  Islington^  gentle- 
man, challenged  by  the  crown. 

John  Rix,  of  White-chapel,  distiller,  sworn, 

LiOT  of  the  Jury. 

Thomas  Collins,  of  Bemer»-stree€,  esq. 
Henry  Hastings,  of  Queen  Anne-street,  esq^ 
Edwaard  Hulse,  of  Harley-street,  esq. 
Edward  Pomfret,  of  New  North-street,  esq. 
Gedaliah  Giatfidd,  of  Hackney,  esq. 
Joseph  Pickles,  of  Homerton,  esq. 
Edward  Gordon,  of  Bromley,  esq. 
Marmaduke  Peacoak,  of  Hackney,  esq. 
Francis  Degon,  of  Hammersmith,  6sq. 
Simon  Le  S^y  of  Hammersmith,  esq. 
Robert  Armitaee,  of  Kensington,  esq. 
John  Rix,  of  White-chapel,  esq. 

The  Clerk  of  the  Crown  charged  th6  Jury 
ttritfi  the  Prisoner. 

Countelfor  the  Crmn. — ^Mr.  Attorney  Ge- 
neral, Mr.  Solicitor  General,  Mr.  Bearcroft^ 
Mr.  Lee,  Mr.  Howorth,  Mr.  Dunning,  Mr. 
Nor^ou 


499] 


^1  GEOAGE  IIL      Proceedings  against  Lord  George  Gordon,      [500 


Counsel  for  the  Prisoner.  Mr.  Kenyon,  the 
hon.  Tfaomas  Erakine. 

'  Mr.  Norton.  May  it  please  your  lordship, 
and  yoUy  gentlemen  of  the  jury,  the  noble 
prisoner  at  the  bar,  George  Gordon,  esq.  com- 
monly called  lord  Georges  Gordon,  stands  in- 
dicted of  high  treason,  m  intending  to  levy 
war  against  hie  present  miyesty,  within  the 
kingdom  of  Great  Britain ;  and.  gentlemen, 
the  indictment  further  states,  tnat  the  pri- 
soner, to  effect  this  traitorous  intention,  aid, 
on  the  Sd  of  June  last,  and  at  divers  other 
times,  between  that  day  and  the  10th  of  the 
same  month,  at  the  parish  of  St.  Margiuet% 
withii)  the  liberty  of  Westminster,  m  this 
county,  with  a  great  multitude. of  persons, 
armed  and  arrayed  in  a  warlike  manner,  with 
weapons  offensive  and  defensive,  and  with 
colours  flying ;  being  then  and  there  imlaw- 
fiiUy  and  traitorously  assembled,  most  wick^ 
cdly,  maliciously,  and  traitorously  did  prepare 
and  levy  public  war  against  our  soverei^  lord 
the  king,  contrail  to  the  duty  of  his  alle- 
fiiance.  s^unst  the  peace  of  our  said  lord  the 
king,  his  crown  and  dienity.  and  against  the 
ftatute  ip  such  case  ^maoe  and  provided. 

To  this  indictment  the  prisoner  has  pleaded 
that  he  is  not  gotlty,  and  hath  put  nimseLf 
^pon  his  trial ;  we  who  are  of  counsel  for  the 
crown  shall  call  our  witnesses  in  support  of 
the  prosecution ;  and  if  the  evidence  shall 
prove  the  charge  to  your  satisfaction,  then  it 
will  be  your  duty,  under  the  direction  of  the 
court,  to  find  the  prisoner  guilty. 

-  Mr.  Attorney  General.  [Wallace.]  May  it 
please  your  lordship,  and  you  gentlemen  of 
tile  jury,  I  am  also  of  counsel  in  support  of 
this  prosecution  agunst  the  prisoner  at  the 
bar,  which  imputes  to  him  a  crime  In  the 
highest  class  ot  offences  known  to  the  law  of 
this  country — that  of  hish  treason ;  and  the 
narticular  species  of  hign  treason  you  find, 
from  the  opening  of  the  indictment,  is  levy- 
ingwar  against  the  king  within  his  realm. 

The  oflence  of  levyine  war  agiunst  the  king 
within  the  statute  of  the  95th  of  Edward  S, 
18  of  two  sorts,  the  one  directly  and  imme- 
diately aeaittst  the  person  of  the  kmg,  the 
other,  called  constructive  levying  of  war,  is 
against  the  majesty  of  the  kmg,  as  a  mat 
and  numerous  insurrection  of  the  people  to 
cfiect  by  force  an  alteration  of  the  estabfished 
law  of  the  country,  the  redress  of  natiomd 
grievances,  or  the  reformation  of  e^s  real  or 
nnaginary,  in  which  the  insurgents  have  no 
particular  or  special  interest 

It  is  of  the  latter  kind  of  levying;  war  with 
which  the  prisoner  at  the  bar  stands  accused 
by  this  indictment 

You,  gentlemen,  who  reside  in  thb  coimty, 
are  not  strangers  to  the  occasion  of  this  pro- 
secution— ^In  the  month  of  May  in  the  year 
1778,  an  act  of  parliament*  missed  to  repeal 
certain  proviuons  affecting  the  Roman  Ca- 

*  «tat.  18  G.  di «.  $0. 


tholics  in  this  country,  contained  in  an  act  of 
parliament  made  in  the  11th  and  13th  year  of 
kin^  William  3.*  The  particular  provisions 
which  it  was  the  object  of  this  act  to  repeal 
were  these ;  by  the  statute  of  king  William 
every  popish  priest,  exercising  any  part  of  his 
flmction  in  this  kingdom,  was  liaole  to  perpe^' 
tual  ihiprisonment ;  every  person  of  the  popish 
religion  keeping  a  school,  or  taking  upoQ 
himself  the  education,  government,  or  board- 
ing of  youth,  was  liable  to  the  same  punish- 
ment. And  by  another  part  of  this  act,  Ro- 
man Catholics  were  rendered  incapable  of  in- 
heriting or  taking  by  devise  or  limitation 
any  estates  from  Uieir  parents  or  others,  un- 
less they  should  take  oatns  and  subscribe  a  de- 
claration, which  by  their  religion  they  could 
not  conscientiously  do,  and  their  estates  were 
to  go  immediately  over  to  their  next  of  Idn  beinfi 
Protestants,  and  them  and  their  funilies  left 
to  starve.  There  was  another  provision  too> 
which  made  them  incapable  of  taking  an  es- 
tate by  purchase. 

This  act  containing  such  severe  penalties 
could  only  be  justified  by  the  necessity  of  the 
case,  for  the  Ovation  of  the  state  and  our  re- 
ligion.   It  is  the  height  of  severity  to  punish 
men  for  serving  God  in  their  own  way,  or 
employing  themselves  in  one  of  the  most  im- 
portant outies  to  society,  the  education  of 
youth ;  that  men  shall  for  these' reasons  alone 
be  doomed  to  a  loathsome  prison  for  their 
lives,  and  to  the  perpetual  society  of  the  most 
profligate  and  wretched  of  mankind,  b  cruel 
and  horrid.    The  other  part  of  the  act  was 
extremely  severe  in  depriving  a  man  of  hia 
birthright  and  inheritance. 

The  history  of  the  times  indeed  does  not 
furnish  any  proof  of  the  necessity,  nor  affi>nl 
an  apology  for  the  hardship  of  these  provi- 
sions ;  an  accofant  of  the  commencement  and 
progress  of  the  act  is  given  by  a  very  learned 
divme,  who  was  at  that  time  a  memoer  of  the 
House  of  Peers,  bishop  Burnet  It  originated 
in  party  fiu:tion,  in  opposition  to  the  court  at 
that  time.  The  Bill  was  brought  into  the 
House  of  Commons  that  the  court  party 
mijght  reject  it,  and  d^w  upon  themselves  the 
odium  of  a  measure  in  favour  of  the  Catho* 
lies,  for  those  that  broi«ht  in  the  Bill  did  not 
mean  it  should  pass;  they  were  disanpointed 
in  their  view,  for  the  court  party  maoe  no  op-,, 
position  to  it.  They  then  wished  to  drop  it, 
but  they  could  not ;  upon  which  bishop  Bur- 
net says,  they  added  very  severe  and  unre». 
sonabfe  clauses  to  the  Bill  and  sent  it  up  to 
the  House  of  Lords,  in  hopes  that  that  House 
would  reject  it ;  in  this  they  were  disappoint- 
ed too,  for  the  House  of  Lords  did  not  reject 
the  Bill,  but  sufiered  it  to  pass  with  the  se- 
vere penalties  and  punishments  I  have  stated* 
It  is  too  much,  in  my  opinion,  for  any  party 
or  fitction  to  stake  upon  their  game  the  ubcs^ 
ties  and  fortunes  of  others. 

Tbe  Catholics  submitted  to  this  ]aw»  they* 

*  SUct.  11  sad  IS  W.  3,  s.  4 


Sbri 


fir  High  Treason* 


A.  D.  1781. 


I50f 


«xpecteA,liod<mbt,  that  parliament  would  see 
the  haidihipe  imposed  upon  them  by  these 
provisions,  aud  administer  redress.  The^made 
DO  application,  and  indeed  the  penalties  and 
punisaments  appeared  to  every  body  so  ex- 
tremely harsh  and  severe,  that  very  few  pro- 
secutions were  carried  on  upon  this  act;  in 
my  own  time  I  only  remember  one,  which 
was  against  a  person  for  saying  mass  in  a 
house  somewhere  about  Wappme;  he  was 
convicted,  and  of  course  doomed  by  the  pro- 
visions of  this  act  to  perpetual  imprisonment. 
But  the  Roman  Catholics  were  still  liable  to 
private  extortionaiy  demands,  which  they 
yielded  to,  to  avoid  either  prosecution,  or  that 
thev  might  have  the  liberty  of  ei\joying  what 
had  long  been  in  their  femilies  and  had  de- 
scended to  them  as  their  birth-right. 

This  law  remained  in  the  statute  book  Qmd 
though  seldom  put  in  execution  was  sufficient 
to  occasion  perpetual  alarms)  till  the  year 
1778,  when  an  act  of  parliament  was  brought 
into  the  House  of  Commons  to  relieve  his 
majesty's  Roman  Catholic  subjects  against 
the  particular  provisions  I  have  stated.  The 
propriety  and  justice  of  that  measure,  the 
circumstances  attending  it  pretty  plainly 
evince. 

The  Hll  was  brought  in  by  a  member  of  the 
House  of  Commons  distinguished  for  his  love 
•f  the  civil  rights  of  mankind,  and  for  his  firoi 
and  zealous  attachment  to  the  Protestant 
religion,  and  who  besides  possesses  every  pub- 
lic and  private  virtue  that  can  adorn  the  citi- 
len  and  the  man.  I  mean  sir  George  Savile* 
—it  passed  through  the  Hbuse  of  Comiiions 
with  almost  unanimity,  the  opposition  made  to 
it  from  some  was  not  to  the  principle  of  the  Bill, 
but  that  it  did  not  go  far  enoueh  in  the  re- 
dress; It  should  in  the  opinion  of  those  have 
been  extended  to  other  penalties,  for  I  must 
inform  you  that  in  the  time  of  passing  the  act 
of  king  William,  the  Roman  Cathohcs  stood 
by  law  excluded  from  any  share  in  goyem- 
*  ment,  from  any  office  of  trusty  civil  or  military, 
and  the  .persons  of  that  religion  performing 
any  part  of  their  functions,  as  priests  or  keep- 
ing of  schools  or  educating  youth,  stood  liable 
to  many  pecimiary  penalties,  and  in  some  in- 
stances to  temporary  imprisonments.  This 
was  their  situation  at  the  time  when  these 
additional  penalties  and  punishments  were 
inflicted  upon  them.  This  repeal  was  not  ab- 
solute and  extending  to  all  affected  b;^  the 
flatute  of  kine  William,  but  was  conditional, 
and  restrained  to  those  who  should  take  an 
oath  established,  bv  that  act,  of  the  strongest 
assurance  of  their  loyaltjf  and  affection  to  the 
government,  and  an  abjuration  in  explicit 
tenns  of  every  pretender  to  the  crown  and  go- 
vernment of  this  kingdom,  and  besides  a  posi- 
tive renunciation  of  any  authori^  of  the  see 
of  Rome,  in  civil  or  temporal  cases,  within 

*  8e»  Mr.  Burke*!  most  ekiqfleiit  tpeech  to  the 
fleelon  of  Bristol    Borke'i  Works,  vol.  4.  p.  1. 


this  kingdom.  None  could  receive  the  benefi 
of  this  repeal,  who  did  not  give  the  public 
that  pledee.      ' 

Upon  ttie  passing  of  this  act,  many  of  the 
Roman  Catholics  of  the  first  characters  and  for- 
tunes in  the  kingdom,  and  others  of  all  descrip* 
tions,  came  in,  and  gave  the  security  to  govern* 
men^  under  the  sanction  of  an  oath,  which  the 
act  required;  no  person  at  that  time  seemed 
dissatisfied ;  but  in  the  winter  followins  it  was 
8ujM)osed  that  a  Bill  would  be  brou^t  into 
parliament,  to  take  off  some  penalties  which 
were  inflicted  by  the  laws  of  Scotland  upon 
the  Roman  Catholics  of  that  country.  And 
in  the  beginning  of  February  were  received 
from  Edinburgh,  and  published  in  every  paper, 
accounts  of  a  most  violent  insurrection  in  that 
country,  to  put  a  stop  to  that  measure.  'It 
appeared  from  these  accounts^  that,  upon  the 
3d  of  February,  an  insurrection  happened  in 
the  city  of  Ewnbureh,  that  two  R<>man  Ca^ 
tholic  chapels  had  been  attacked  and  set  on 
fire;  that  the  houses  of  ^e  Roman  Catholics 
there  in  different  parts  of  the  town,  were  at- 
tacked, ransacked,  and  demolished ;  that  the 
utmost  exertions  of  the  civil  magistrate,  as- 
sisted by  some  of  the  fencibles,  could  not  sup- 
press the  tumult;  nor  until  the  provost  of  the 
city  gave  assurances  in  the  most  public  man- 
ner, that  the  scheme  was  dropped,  that  i)# 
act  of  parliament  would  be  applied  fo^  re- 
specting the  Roman  Catholics  of  Scotian^ 
could  any  check  be  given  to  the  violence  and 
outrages  committing  to  the  destruction  of 
many  innocent  men.  This  put  an  end  to  an 
attempt  to  obtain  the  act  of  parliament,  con- 
ceivea  by  some  gentlemen  of  distinction  of 
that  country,  to  be  a  very  salutary  proper, 
and  just  measure.  I  take  notice  of^  this  in- 
surrection in  ScoUand,  because  when  I  come 
to  state  to  you  the  conduct  of  the  prisoner  at 
the  bar,  it  will  be  found  to  be  a  very  material 
circumstance. 

Things  remained  for  some  time  quiet  in 
this  country,  but  an  association  was  tormed, 
cdledthe  Ftotestant  Association,  every  one 
of  you,  gentlemen,  have  heard  of  i^  and 
wbere  pains  were  taken  to  create  a  belief  that 
the  repeal  of  the  statute  of  king  William 
would  DC  attend^  with  immediate  danger  te 
the  state,  and  to  the  Protestant  religion; 
upon  that  ground  it  seems  a  petition  was  de- 
termined upon,  and  if  they  apprehended  daiK 
ger,  they  did  right  to  petition ;  it  is  the  inhe- 
rent right  of  the  suDJect  to  petition  parlia> 
ment;  and  whenever  they  imagine  a  case 
proper  for  the  consideration  of  parliament 
they  do  right  to  bring  it  before  them ;  and  I 
believe  this  petition  was  at  one  time  intended 
to  have  been  presented  in  a  legal,  constitution- 
al, and  orderly  manner. 

You  will  find,  for  I  shall  g^ve  you  the  gene- 
ral outlines  of  the  business  before  I  state  the 
particular  conduct  of  the  prisoner,  that  uponi 
the  3d  of  June,  in  consequence  of  public  ad* 
vertisements  published  in  the  news-papers, 
and  pasted  up  at  the  comers  of  streets,  and 


505] 


31  GEORGE  IIL      Proceedingi  agairm  Lord  George  Gordon^      [^SM 


of  hand  IhUs  distributed,  there  was  OQllected 
together  in  St.  George's-fields^  a  roultitude  of 

riopTe,  or  more  properly,  a  very  large  army ; 
.  believe  consisting  (the  particulars  we  may 
hear  from  the  vvitnesses)  of  many  thousands; 
SO,  30,  or  40)000r*- under  the  pretext  of  pre- 
eentin^^a  petition  to  parliament.  Though  it 
is  the  births-right  of  the  subject  to  present  a 
petition  to  parliament,  yet  the  petitioners  are 
not  to  dictate  to  parliament,  or  take  from  par- 
liament their  deliberation  and  judgment  upon 
the  subject ;  that  would  tend  directly  to  the 
dissolution  of  the  constitution,  and  the  sub- 
version of  government.  .^ 

This  body  of  men  were  arranged,  according 
to  the  direction  of  the  advertisement,  into 
three  or  four  divisions ;  the  London  to  the 
right,  the  Scotch  division  to  the  left,  and  the 
AVestminster  to  one  part,  and  the  Southwark 
division  in  another ;  one  division,  consisting 
of  many  many  thousands,  marched  over 
london-bridge,  through  the  city,  down  the 
Strand,  and  so  to  the  House  of  Commons, 
with  colours  flying,  distinguished  by  blue 
cockades,  and  making  a  march  as  regular  as 
an  army  trained  toil;  they  had  bagpipes, 
which  belonged,  I  fancy,  to  the  Scotch  oivi- 
won ;  in  this  way  they  marched ;  they  ar- 
rived at  the  House  of  Commons  about  one 
o'clock ;  and,  being  joined  hv  the  other  divi- 
sions, took  possession  of  all  the  avenues  le^- 
ing  to  the  House,  and  of  the  lobby,  and  it 
was  with  the  utmost  difficulty  the  members 

fot  admittance  into  the  House;  some  mem- 
ers  of  each  House  were  insulted  and  ill- 
treated  by  the  populace,  as  examples,  I  pre- 
sume, of  what  the  rest  we^e  to  expect,  if  the 
wishes  of  tlie  mob  were  not  complied  with ; 
in  this  siUiation  the  petition  was  presented, 
9nd  those  in  the  lobby  were  desired  to  with- 
draw. If  it  was  a  constitutional  purpose,  they 
had  in  coming  to  the  House,  it  was  answered; 
but  they  would  not  stir,  and  with  great  riot 
and  confusion  insisted  upon  a  lep^  of  the 
act ;  the  crv  was,  A  repeal !  A  rep^ !  No 
Popery ! — ^Tne  civil  power  was  in  vain  sent 
for  to  disperse  them,  they  still  kept  posses- 
sion ;  they  besieged  the  House,  they  kept 
the  members  imprisoned.  Thus  they  con- 
tinued till  between  nine  and  ten  at  night, 
when  the  civil  power,  by  the  assistance  ofthe 
military,  were  able  to  deliver  the  House  of 
Commons  from  the  disgraceRil  situation  in 
which  they  had  been  to  that  time,  and 
must  have  been  confined  till  they  had  granted, 
as  far  as  they  could,  the  prayer  of  this  pe. 
**  tition,  As  soon  as  the  House  was  delivered, 
th^  ordered  the  business  to  be  considered, 
and  adjourned  to  the  Tuesday  following ;  but 
the  mob,  not  having  succeeaed  in  their  pur- 
pose, and  being  dnven  from  the  House  ia 
the  manner  I  have  stated,  immediately  be- 
took themselves  to  other  measures ;  they  in- 
stantly resolved  to  attack  the  chapels  »r  the 
foreign  ministers,  which,  in  every  civilized 
country,  are  protected  and  deemed  sacred 
&sm  losub;    sooM  of  them  wen  approp 


bended,  I  think  about  thiiteen,  that  night 
or  the  next  morning.  On  Saturday  lEuey 
paraded  in  different  parts  of  the  towi^  bik 
I  do  not  find  that  much  mischief  "was  done: 
cm  the  Sunday  they  appeared  in  MoorfieklS| 
they  thefe  attacked  a  chapel  in  that  n^gh* 
bourhood,  and  the  'bouses  of  many  Roinuua 
Catholics,  situated  thereabouts^  and  corn- 
pletely  demolished  the  houses  and  effects 
of  these  unfortunate  people.  I  only  give 
in  general,  an  account  of  what  they  did:  I 
am  convinced  many  of  you  were  cye-wil*. 
nesses  to  what  I  am  now  stating.  On  the 
Monday,  thfe  men  who  were  taken  up  wore 
examined  at  sir  John  Fielding's  i  nve  of 
them  were  committed  to  Newgate:  they 
were  examined  under  the  apprehensiMk  of  a 
rescue  from  the  violence  that  was  without  the 
door ;  it  was  with  difficulty  that  they  were 
conducted  to  Newgate  by  the  guards;  but^ 
as  socm  as  ^ey  were  lodged  there,  these 
people  made  an  attack  upon  the  house  of  a 
Mr.  Rainsforth,  who  had  been  active  in  a|H 
prehending  tiiem,  and  a  witness  ag^st 
them;  ^y  made  an  attack  too  upon  tbe^ 
house  of  a  Mr.  Maberly,  who  had  been  a  wit* 
ness  before  the  magistrate^  and  also  upon  the 
house  of  sir  George  Savile;  and  they  did 
other  injury  that  night.  The  next  day,  neing 
the  Tuesday  when  the  parliament  was  to 
meet  again,  all  the  parties  of  this  army  ra- 
assemhled  about  the  House  of  Commons,  and 
there  continued  with  great  not  and  coq> 
fusion,  with  shouts  for  A  repeal,  and  No 
Popery,  till  the  House  was  obli^  to  adjounu 
Upon  tlus  their  first  attack  was  upon  the 
house  of  Mr.  Hyde;  the  offence  given  by  Bir. 
Hyde,  was  partly  his  attendance  at  the  jus- 
tices  upon  the  Monday  at  the  examination, 
but  principally  for  his  activity  as  a  magistrate 
in  saving  the  life  of  a  member  of  the  House 
of  Peers,  the  earl  of  Sandwich,  who,  in  going 
to  attend  his  duty,'had  been  violently  attacked 
by  the  mob.  They  ransacked  and  set  fire  to 
Mr.  Hyde's  house,  and  burnt  the  furniture, 
and  totally  demolished  every  thing  th^ 
could.  In  this  they  were  accompaaied  with 
their  colours,  for  they  a{>peared  agun  with 
their  flags  sjod  with  their  cockacws.  Very 
large  parts  of  the  mob  marched  to  Newgpite  $ 
they  set  fire  to  the  keeper's  house ;  they  at- 
tacked the  prison ;  and,  in  a  very  short  Xamt, 
the^setat  large  all  the  prisoners;  a  place 
which  for  its  security  seemed  to  be  eeeai  to  a 
prison  in  the  coitre  of  the  earth.  They  af« 
terwards  attacked  and  demolished  nai^ 
houses  belonging  to  Roman  Catholics,  bunit 
and  destroyed  the  furniture  and  efiects. 

Upon  the  Wednesday  they  attaeked  and 
broke  open  the  other  prisons  in  and  about  this 
metropolis,  with  an  exception  ofthe  Penktiy 
Compter,  and  set  at  liberty  all  the  prieoBers  ; 
they  continued  their  proceediiiigs  wnhoiit  can* 
troul  or  check  all  that  night,  and  until  some 
time  the  next  morning ;  in  tint  night  vacKMis 
houses  in  different  parts  of  the  town  wenr 
in  flames  at  the  same  time ;  in  short  Bdduns 


035} 


^  High  Treaunu 


[50ft 


W29  expected  less  than  geoenl  oooflagmtioiL 
The  next  day  an  attack  ma  meditaira  upon 
the  Bank,  aSod  I  helieve  upon  the  Pay  and 
Excise  offices;  ha|^ily  his  majestv,  by  bis 
anximis  care,  and  extcaordinary  and  unretnit* 
ting  exertionsy  had  been  able  to  collect  toge- 
ther a  force ;  all  the  troops  within  a  consider- 
able distance  were  brousnt  up  to  themetro- 
polisy  and  they  gave  a  check  to  the  fury  of  the 
mob;  this  was  upon  the  Thundavy  when 
they  were  making  an  attempt  upon  the  Poul* 
t^  Compter.  Every  person  I  believe  is  con* 
vinced^  that  if  a  stop  had  not  been  then  put 
to  the  outraces,  the  whole  of  this  town  would 
have  been  aestrqyed  in  a  veiy  short  time; 
for  though  the  reoeal  of  the  bill  was  the  pre- 
tended cause,  ana  the  Roman  Catholics  tiie 
object  at  firs^f  of  their  violence,  that  distinc- 
tion would  soon  have  vanishedr-the  reputed 
papist — the  friend  of  the  papist,  and  all  those 
who  had  not  the  least  connection  with  them, 
if  in  any  respect  obnoxious  to  the  mob,  would 
have  suffered — ^It  is  astonishing  to  me,  that 
the  whole  town  was  not  destroyed,  consider- 
hig  the  number  of  Roman  Catm>lics  employ- 
ed in  our  manufactories  here,  and  others  who 
are  doomed  to  the  most  laborious  employ- 
ments in  this  town ;  had  thev  interposed  m 
defence  of  their  innocent  brethren  to  preserve 
them  from  ruin  what  must  have  been  the 
00Dse<iuence ! — ^A  bloody  war  must  have  taken 
j^ace;  and  if  an  attack  upon  the  houses  of 
Frotestants  had  been  provoked,  the  whole  of 
this  town,  even  before  the  military  could  have 
arrived  to  our  assistance,  might  have  been 
destroved^Before  the  insurrection  was  put 
an  end  to,  there  appeared  strong  marks  of 
the  machinations  of  our  inveterate  enemies. 
What  was  the  meaning  of  opening  the  prisons 
— ^what  was  the  intentof  that  attack  upon  the 
national  credit  of  the  kingdom,  the  Bank  of 
England?  was  that  upon  the  ground  of 
Popery,  or  for  the  repeal  of  this  bill }  Other 
circumstances  concumng,  leave  no  doubt  that 
pneater  designs  than  at  first  appeared  were 
opening  to  &e  oublic. 

Having  statea  in  general  the  outlines  of  the 
violences  committed  durins  these  few  days, 
to  the  eternal  disgrace  of  Uiis  country,  for  it 
can  nevor  be  wiped  off,  it  remains  for  me  to 
state  to  jou.  what  share  the  prisoner  at  the 
bar  had  to  them ;  for  there  can  be  no  doubt 
that  all  persons  who  contributed  to  the  perpe- 
m&on  of  them  are  as  criminal  as  the  very 
persona  wh6  committed  Uie  act,  and  more  so, 
esfcdally,  if  they  are  to  be  ascribed  to  their 
incitement  and  encouragement. 

Gentlemen,  yon  have  now  before  you,  as 
will  appear  upon  the  evidence,  the  author  of 
all  these  violent  and  disgraceful  proceedings, 
ta  whom  the  whole  is  to  be  imputed ;  an  of- 
iendcrof  such  a  description  has  not  often  ap- 
peared m  a  court  of  justice. 

I  have  already  stated  to  you  the  Protestant 
AflsodatioD,  but  have  not  mentioned  to  you, 
leaving  it  to  this  stage  of  the  business,  that 
tha  pnaonef  wasihe  prcsideiiC  ci  that  aasocia- 

t 


A.  D.  1781. 


tion.  I  stated  to  you,  that  I  have  great 
son  to  believe,  and  I  hope  it  will  come  out 
before  this  day  b  over,  that  there  were  some 
of  that  association  who  meant  no  more  than 
to  lay  their  apprehensions  before  parliament, 
willing,  to  leave  them  to  their  consideration 
andjingment,  intended  to  present  their  pe« 
tition  in  the  ordinary  form,  and  in  a  constiti^ 
tional  way,  attended  by  very  few  of  the  pe* 
titioners.  But  that  did  not  square  with  the 
views  of  their  president.  Their  pre^dent  had 
been  in  parliament, — ^he  had  obsetved  the 
sentiments  of  many  upon  the  subject  of  this 
repeal ;  he  possibly  desoured  of  any  imme* 
diate  relief  being  given^  ror  certainlv  the  sub* 
ject  required  great  consideration ;  tnecircimw 
stances,  if  any.  to  shew  danger  to  be  appre- 
hended from  the  repeal  of  the  Bill  were  to  be 
investi^ted.  A  difficulty  was  thrown  upon 
the  busmess ;  this  Bill  invited  the  Catholiea 
to  give  a  pledge  of  their  fideli^  and  lojralty ; 
this  they  nad  done  upon  the  faith  of  enjovine 
that  dq^ree  of  freedom  from  penalties  ana  pu« 
nishmcnts  which  the  Act  held  out  to  them ; 
there  were  besides  other  weishty  consider^ 
tions.  But  deliberate  proceecUngs  would  not 
answer  the  purpose ;  the  session  of  parliament 
was  near  expiring;  the  prisoner  at  the  bar 
advertised  for  a  general  meeting  to  propose 
an  attendance  on  this  petition  by  numbers ; 
the  proposal  at  a  general  meeting  where  all 
came  that  pleased  wkhout  disUnction,  was  im- 
mediately assented^ ;  there  are  people  who 
attend  these  places  who  cannot  exist  without 
the  opportunity  of  plunder ;  the  prisoner  upon 
this  declared  that  he  would  not  present  the 
petition  unless  he  was  attended  by  twenty 
thousand  people ;  did  such  an  idea  ever  strike 
any  man  that  meant  wdl  to  the  peace  and 
tranquillity  of  the  country,  that  he  would  not 
present  it  without  he  was  attended  by  twenty 
thousand  people,  and  they  were  to  be  maiked, 
they  were  to  be  distinguished  by  cockades, 
that  he  might  know  the  friends  of  the  pe- 
tition, or  the  friends  to  the  Protestant  cause  ? 
Good  God!  is  a  cockade  the  test  of  ad' 
herence  to  an^^  good  cause ;  every  man  that 
came  there  with  a  cockade,  whatever  his 
views  were,  was  considered  as  a  friend  to  the 
Protestant  religion ;  there  was  no  other  title 
to  admission  into  this  body,  but  merely  bav* 
ing  cockades  in  their  hats — Allien  he  gave  di- 
rections, that  they  should  be  formed  into  divi* 
sions ;  a  general  could  not  make  a  more  proper 
disposition  of  his  army;  the  London  division 
was  to  go  to  the  right,  the  Scotch  to  the  left, 
Westmmster  to  one  part,  Southwark  to'  the 
other  part ;  and  then  they  were  V>  be  marched 
off  in  these  divisions,  i  dare  say  it  struck 
many  who  were  there,  that  this  proposal  must 
be  attended  with  tumult  and  breaches  of  the 
peace  at  the  least;  the  very  collection  of  so 
great  a  number  was  never  made  in  any  coun* 
try  without  doing  mischief;  but  to  takeoff 
apprehensions  of  that  kind,  he  bid  them  re* 
collect  what  the  Scotch  had  done.  By  their 
firm  conduct  they  had  prevented  the   KU 


SOT] 


21  CrEORGE  IIL      Proceedingi  against  Zard  George  Gordon,      [50B 


from  extending  to  them;  he  recoihmended 
to  this  body,  to  twenty  thousand  men !  the 
firm  conduct  of  the  Scotch,  which  consisted 
in  the  most  violent  insurrection  and  tumult 
that  ever  was  knovm  in  that  city,  and  in  acts 
of  violence  against  the  Roman  Catholics  who 
committed  no  fault,  nor  apphed  for  redress, 
but  were  taken  up  as  men  innocently  suffer- 
ing, and  men  that  ought  to  be  relieved.  Is  a 
mob  not  able  to  take  the  hint  ?  It  would  have 
been  too  much  for  the  prisoner  to  have  8ai4» 
Gentlemen,  go  and  pull  down  all  the  houses  of 
the  Roman  Catholics :  the  civil  magistrates 
would  have  interposed ;  but  it  was,  £9oollect 
what  the  Scotch  did  by  their  firm  conduct ; 
and  he  added,  h&did  not  desire  them  to  run 
any  danger  wnich  he  was  pot  ready  to  share 
wiui  them,  and  that  he  would  meet  them 
there ;  and  was  ready  to  go  to  the  gallows  for 
their  cause ;  greater  encotira^ment  could  not 
be  given  to  a  set  of  men ;  tney  looked  up  to 
him  as  a  man  of  education  and  high  birth ; 
they  probably  did  not  at  that- time  suspect  the 
anare  he  was  drawing  them  into,  when  he 
offered  and  pledged  himself,  and  tiiat  he 
would  even  go  to  the  allows  with  them  in 
the  business;  he  published  an  advertisement 
ibr  a  meeting  of  these  people,  and  though  he 
mentioned  only  twenty  tnousand,  he  had  an 
jexpectation  of  a  much  larger  army.  The  ad- 
.▼ertisement  t  will  read  to  you,  '<  Protestant 
Association.  Whereas  no  hall  in  London 
can  contain  fort^  thousand  men,  Resolved 
that  this  association  do  meet  on  Friday  next.'' 

Court  Gentlemen  of  the  Jury ;  I  observe 
fome  of  you  are  taking  notes,  you  are  not 
to  attend  to  any  thins  stated  to  you  by  ^e 
.counsel  unless  it  is  afterwards  proved  by  the 
witnesses. 

Mr.  Attorney  General,  1  open  to  you  from 
my  instnictions  what  is  given  me  as  facts, 
and  where  witnesses  are  piit  dowpi  to  prove 
them ;  I  am  not  answeraole  for  the  truth  of 
them.  God  forbid  that  any  thing  I  mention 
unsupported  by  proof  should  turn  to  the  pre- 
judice of  the  prisoner  at  the  bar.  The  first 
resolution  says,  ^  Resolved  that  this  associar- 
tion  do  meet  on  Friday  next«  June  the  3d,  pi 
St  GeorgeVfields,  at  ten  o'clock  in  the  morn- 
ing ;  to  consider  of  the  most  prudent  and  re- 
spectful manner  of  attending  their  petition, 
which  will  be  presented  the  same  day  to  the 
House  of  Commons.'' 

Forty  thousand  men  to  meet  to  consider  of 
the  most  prudent  and  respectful  mamier  of 
presenting  a  petition,  how  are  they  to  be  con- 
sulted !  how  is  their  opinion  to  be  asked ! 
this  is  a  disguised  business.—'^  Resolved,  for 
the  sake  of  good  order  and  regularity,  that 
this  association,  on  coming  to  tlie  ground,  do 
separate  themselves  into  four  divisions;  to 
wit,  the  London  division,  the  Westminster 
division,  the  Southwark  division,  and  the 
Scotch  division.  Resolved,  that  the  London 
division  do  take  place  upon  the  right  of  the 

Sound  toward  Southward;  the  Westminster 
vision  second;    the  Southwark  division 


thifd ; .  and  the  Scotdi  division  imon  the  left ; 
all  wearing  blue  cockades  in  tneir  hats  to 
distinguish  themselves  firom  the  Papists,  and 
those  who  approved  of  the  late  act  in  &vour 
of  Popery.''  So  every  man  that  did  not  wear 
a  cockade  in  his  hat  was  to  be  distinguished 
as  a  favourer  of  Popery  and  of  the  late  act  of 
parliament ;  and  tnat  every  man  who  would 
put  a  cociode  in  his  hat,  be  his  description 
what  it  might,  was  to  be  considered  as  a  friend 
to  this  petition ;  in  short  he  was  to  be  a  fHend 
to  the  purposes  in  view.  *'  Resolved,  that 
the  magistrates  of  London,  Westminster,  and 
Southwark,  are  requested  to  attend,  that  th^r 
presence  may  over-awe  and  control  anj 
riotous  or  evil-minded  persons  who  may  wish 
to  disturb  the  legal  ana  peaceable  deportment 
of  his  Majesty's  Protestant  subjects." — ^Now, 
gentlemen,  what  an  insult  is  this  upon  the 
civil  magistrates !  this  last  paragraph  adds  U>^ 
the  mockery  of  the  advertisement;  is  of  a 
piece  with  the  other  I  observed  upon,  in  the 
circumstances  of  these  people  calling  for  a 
protection  from  the  civil  magistrates  against 
those  who  should  disturb  theur  legal  and 
peaceable  deportment;  for  God's s&e, who 
IS  there  that  durst  look  in  the  face  of  forty 
thousand  men !  this  army  wants  a  protection, 
and  calls  upon  the  magistrates  for  it;  but 
what  magistrates  ?  tlie  London,  Westminster, 
and  Southwark;  of  the  two  first  none  can  act 
but  in  London  and  Westminster,  and  in 
Southwark  I  believe  hardly  one  magistrate 
resided,  and  besides  these  men  were  out  of 
the  borough  of  Southwark,  so  that  not  one  of 
the  magistrates,  if  called  upon  to  keep  the 
peace,  and  to  protect  forty  thousand  men, 
could  act  at  all.  This  advertisement  was  evi- 
dently to  disguise  the  real  purpose  and  views 
of  the  meeting. 

I  have  already  stated  to  you  the  assembly 
the  advertisement  produced  on  the  2d  of 
June;  the  prisoner  at  the  bar  appeared  at 
their  head  with  his  cockade;  they  wera 
drawn  up,  and  under  orders,  I  presume,  from 
him.  Upon  a  person's  carrymg  a  massage 
from  the  prisoner  to  them,  the  march  b^an, 
that  I  have  abreadv  stated  to  you ;  he  received 
them,  or  came  along  with  them,  I  do  not 
know  which,  to  the  House  of  Commons,  and 
there  presented  the  petition.  This  body  of 
men  will  appear  to  you  to  have  been  totally 
under  his  umuence  and  management;  the 
insult  and  violence  at  the  House  of  Commons 
I  have  already  described  to  you,  and  the  force 
used  there ;  no  persuasion  whatever,  no  exer- 
tion could  deliver  the  House  of  Commons  firom 
the  situation  they  were  in  till  very  late  at 
night  He  had  it  in  his  power  at  any  mo* 
ment  to  have  done  it,  nay  m  the  height  of 
the  tumult  those  in  the  lobby  called  to  him 
to  know  whether  they  should  <)uit  the  lobbv; 
it  was  impossible  to  faiave  a  division  until  toe 
lobby  was  cleared,  but  nothing  could  be  done 
without  his  directions ;  it  was  not  safe  lor  him 
to  order  them  to  stay  and  obstruct  the  pro- 
ceedings of , the  House  in  plain  temis;  bm  he 


dOSi 


J6r  High  Treason, 


A.  D.  1781. 


t&ia 


did  that  which  was  equivalent ;  he  told  them 
to  he  steady  and  persevere  ;  that  he  would 
state  to  them  the  case ;  that  he  had  ci^ed  for 
a  division,  that  there  was  no  douht  at  all  that 
it  was  against  them,  but,  if  they  continued  in 
the  lobby,  the  House  could  not  divide;  this 
be  stated  to  them,  not  that  he  advised  them ; 
and  then  that  he  might  not  appear  to  have 
given  them  any  directions,  he  left  it  to  them  to 
do  as  they  pleased ;  it  was  enough  to  leave  to 
them  that  by  clearing  the  lobby  the  business 
would  be  put  off,  whereas  they  wanted  it  to 
be  instantly  urged  on,  and  carried  through ; 
he  was  applied  to  over  and  over  to  desire  them 
to  go  out;  a  word  from  him  would  have  done 
it,  and  then  parliament  would  not  hav^  been 
compelled  to  suffer  the  disgrace  of  passing  an 
act  without  examination,  and  without  forming 
a  Judgment  upon  the  subject. 

Gentlemen,  you  will  find  that  he  reminded 
them  over  and  over  of  the  conduct  of  the 
Scotch ;  he  told  them  the  dvil  magistrate  was 
sent  for,  but  they  need  not  regard  him,  for 
be  believed  he  was  a  petitioner;  that  the 
guards,  if  the^  came,  would  do  them  no  hurt; 
m  short,  by  his  persuasions  and  incitements, 
he  kept  that  body  at  the  door,  imprisoning 
the  members.  When  the  Scotch,  said  he, 
pulled  down  the  mass-houses,  they  had  re- 
dress. Lord  Weymouth  sent  an  assurance 
that  the  Bill  should  not  be  extended  to 
Scotland,  and  shall  the  Scotch  be  better 
than  you  ?  ^o  language  could  convey 
more  intelligible  directions  to  these  people ; 
if  they  did  not  succeed  by  the  force  upon  the 
House  of  Commons,  thev  were  to  resort  to  the 
other  plan ;  the  Scotch,  sedd  he,  had  redress 
when  they  pulled  down  itie  mass-houses,  you 
know  what  the  Scotch  did  by  their  firm  con- 
duct ;  this  he  said  to  them  who  were  under 
his  influence  and  command ;  men  who  would 
have  departed  if  he  had  given  them  the  word; 
who  looked  to  him  solely  for  instructions  for 
their  conduct,  and  besides  he  mentioned  too 
that  there  was  no  doubt  HxblX  his  nu^esty, 
when  he  heard  of  the  insurrections  withm  ten 
miles  of  London,  and  of  their  flocking  up  to 
town,  would  send  his  ministers  to  promise  a 
repeal :  if  the  prisoner  and  his  adherents  were 
ootable  to  accomplish  their  purpose  at  the, 
House,  the  Scotch  plan  he  had  recommended 
was  to  be  adopted ;  they  uistantly  flew  to  the 
chapels  of  the  ambassadors,  afterwards  to  the 
houses  of  the  Roman  Catholics,  and  of  those 
who  had  eiven  obstruction  to  the  mob.  What 
became  or  the  prisoner  does  not  appear ;  but 
you  will  find,  when  they  re-assembled  again 
upon  the  Tuesday,  afler  the  violent  outrages 
on  the  preceding  evening,  Sunday  and  Mon- 
day, he  came  to  the  House  of  Commons,  with 
the  same  symbol  of  being  their  heaa  and 
leader,  that  of  a  cockade,  and  which  was  a 
plain  token  of  his  approbation  of  their  actions. 
Th^  had  all  their  colours  flyine  about  Palace- 
jaTd.^-Withottt  remorte.  without  advising 
them  to  depart  peaceably,  without  remon- 
strating with  the«i  about  t)ie  inLschiefs  they 


had  done ;  he  was  led  off  in  triumph  through 
the  city  of  London  to  the  Mansion-house,  and 
other  places,  by  a  large  body ;  this  happened 
upon  the  Tuesday.  On  the  Wednesday  he 
sent  an  advertisement  to  the  papers  of  a  veiy  ^ 
singular  nature  to  be  inserted  in  the  Thurs* 
day's  papers,  it  did  get  into  some  papers,  it  is 
this; — "  Lord  George  Gordon  went  in  person 
to  three  different  places,  where  the  tumultg 
were  subsisting,  to  harangue  tlie  mob,  and 
exhort  them  to  a  peaceable  and  legal  deport- 
ment ;  he  stood  for  a  considerable  time  among^ 
parties  of  foot  soldiers,  accompanied  by  one 
of  the  London  sheriffs,  but  all  this  was  with- 
out effect,  lord  George  Gordon  not  being  abl» 
to  dve  ;them  any  assurances  that  the  act 
would  be  repealed.*'  This  advertisement  held 
out  to  the  mob,  that  they  were  to  look  forwani 
to  some  assurances;  that  they  were  to  con- 
tinue their  depredations  till  some  assuranca 
should  be  given,  and  that  thb  was  the  only 
reason  why  the  violences  were  not  stopped. 
Did  he  flatter  himself  that  he  should  hava  ' 
assurance  from  anv  Quarter  that  this  BiU, 
would  be  repealed!  He  adds,  several  mer^- 
chants  requested  lord  George  Gordon  to  sign 
papers  that  they  werr  friends  to  the  Protes- 
tant interest,  &c. 

So  he  states  himself  in  his  own  hand-writ^ 
ing.  that  he  was  the  person  who  had  been, 
ana  was  to  be  applied  to,  for  protections ;  wa 
shall  shew  vou  one  of  his  protections  gn&nted 
upon  the  Wednesday,but  nothing  carries  with 
it  stronger  evidence,  under  his  own  hand,  that 
all  the  world  looked  upon  him  as  the  only 
person  who  hadtheeovemmentofthemob, 
m  the  depredations  they  were  then  commit^  ' 
ting ;  he  does  not  say  1  refiised  them,  or  that 
I  granted  them,  he  certainly  meant  that  others 
should  apply  in  the  ^ame  way  for  protections, 
it  was  to  aemonstrate  that  he  was,  and  was 
looked  upon  to  be  the  only  man  whose  name 
and  signature  would  protect  them  from  the 
violence  of  Uiis  nitob ;  his  name  did  furnish  a 
protection  in  one  case  which  we  shall  give  in 
evidence  ;  he  gave  a  protection  to  a  person 
who  had  a  Roman  Catholic  tenant  or  lodger 
in  his  house — he  found  his  bouse  had  been 
threatened  and  applied  to  the  prisoner  for  a ' 
protection — ^he  ^t  one,  and  experienced  tiie 
Denefitofit. 

Can  any  body  doubt,  afler  thts  evidence, 
that  the  prisoner  at  the  bar  was  not  thf^  author 
of  these  disturbances,  and  that  to  his  encou- 
ragement, incitement,  and  means,  they  are  to 
be  ascribed  ?  Perhi^s  he  will  tell  us,  ha  had 
no  other  object  but  the  repeal  of  thi^  Bill; 
and  that  if  oUier  views,  of  a  more  alarming 
and  extensive  nature,  mixed  in  the  operations 
of  the  mob,  they  are  not  imputable  to  him ; 
but  if  he  had  no  other  object  than  the  rep^l 
of  this  Bill;  sure,  his  measure  of  guilt  is  of  no 
ordinary  size ;  will  it  be  enough  for  him  to 
say.  1  would  have  checked  the  mqb  in  tb» 
violence. of  their  proceedings,'butI  was  not 
able  to  do  it;  that  will  be  no  excuse>  if  he 
exhorted  theoi  to  besifif  and  look  to  ml  a^ 


511]  21  GEORGE  III.      Proceedings  against  Lord  George  Gordon,      [5ll 


the  means  to  procure  a  repeal.  If  he  has 
tum«l  out  upon  the  public  ttiis  manjjr  headed 
monster,  to  ravage  and  destroy,  it  will  be  no 
excuse  to  say,  I  wanted  to  check  its  rage  and 
fixry  \  he  has  designedly  given  birth  to  the 
outrage,  and  must  stand  by  the  consequences ; 
h  is  ju9t  he  should. 

.  Grentlemen,  if  these  facts  are  proved,  lay 
your  hands  upon  your  hearts,  and  ask  your- 
selves, whether  to  the  prisoner,  all  that  was 
done,  is  not  to  be  imputed.  It  is  not  an  ac- 
cidental assistance,  or  encouragement,  but  he 
is  the  contriver  of  the  whole.  If  vou  are  sa- 
tisfied of  this,  you  will  pronounce  him  guilty, 
and  your  verdict  will  teach  the  present  and 
iuture  a^jges  this  lesson,  that  no  man,  however 
exalted  in  birth,  situation,  or  connexion,  can 
violate  the  peace,  the  order,  the  ^vemment, 
and  the  laws  of  his  country  with  impunity. 

I  shall,  in  order  to  prove  the  case,  call 
•ome  witnesses,  not  so  many,  I  hope,  as  you 
fnay  have  seen  in  a  list,  which,  by  some 
means,  has  been  published  ^  it  is  not  the  ob- 
ject I  know,  of  dehvering  hsts  of  witnesses, 
that  they  should  appear  m  the  pubKc  news- 
papers, but  you  have  seen  a  great  many  in  a 
Ibt  of  witnesses  published — ^the  necessity  of 
putting  down  many  vdll  be  obvious  to  you, 
for  we  nad  no  power  over  the  witnesses  at  the 
time  their  names  were  inserted,  several  are  to 
the  same  fact,  that  if  any,  from  accident,  sick- 
nessy  or  any  other  cause,  could  not  attend, 
otiiersy  in  that  list,  might  be  called,  for  we 
cannot  siippVy  their  ijlaces  by  witnesses  not 
named  in  the  tist ;  it  is  therefore  of  necessity, 
that  we  have  inserted  so  many  witnesses  to 
the  same  transaction,  but  I  shsdl  not  trouble 
you  with  more  than  I  tlunk  sufficient  to  esta- 
blish the  ibcts. 

Gentlemen,  I  be^paidon  for  taking  up  so 
much  of  your  time,  but  in  &  cause  of  sudi  im- 
portance and  expectation,  it  becomes  my  duty 
to  be  as  particular  in  the  slate  of  the  fiicts, 
materially  afiecting  the  prisoner,  as  it  is  in  my 
l^wer  to  do. 

Evidence  for  the  Crown. 

William  H(iy  sworn. 

Examined  by  Mr.  Solicitor  General. 

Do  you  know  the  prisoner,  lord  George 
Gordon  ?— Yes. 

Do  you  remember  seeing  him  at  a^y  time 
aft  Coacfamaker's-hall  f'-A  saw  the  prisoner  at 
Coachmaker's-hall  on  the  7th  ot  Januaiy, 
178a 

Did  you  see  hun  at  diilerent  times  at  that 
meeting  between  the  7th  of  Januaiy  and  the 
3d  of  June,  the  day  the  multitude  went  to  the 
House  of  Commons  f-^Five  or  six  times^  but 
aot  ait  that  place,  the  association-—- 

What  association  ^--The  association  called 
ihe  Protestant  Assodation,  was  a^ouroed 
^m  place  to  place.  It  was  adjourned  to 
Gfeenwood^s  rooms,  in  the  IbvHtiaricet;  to 
fheOMCfowa  and  JMb^in  Ch«»oa74a0e; 


to  the  London  tavern,  in  Bishopssate-street; 
and  to  St.  MargarctVhall,  in  the  oorough  of 
Southwark. 

Did  you  see  the  prisoner  at  all  or  at  any 
of  those  places? — ^Not  at  all,  but  at  most  of 
them. 

Do  you  recollect  which  of  them  you  saw 
him  at  ? — ^I  saw  him  at  St  Margaret's-halL 
at  Greenwood's  rooms,  at  the  Old  Crown  ana 
Rolls  tavern.  Chancery-lane,  a^d  at  Coach- 
makerVhall. 

Do  you  remember  seeing  him  at  Coach- 
maker's-hall,  at  the  last  meeting,  previous  to 
their  going  up  to  the  House  of  Commons  ? — I 
remember  it  very  well. 

Do  you  recollect  at  that  time  any  thing  sadd 
by  the  prisoner,  and  if  you  do,  mention  what 
it  was  ? — It  was  on  the  'sQth  of  May  I  heard| 
the  prisoner  announce  to  a  very  numerous 
assembly,  the  hall  was  crowded,  *'  That  the 
Associated  Protestants  (as  ttiey  were  called) 
amounted  to  upwards  of  40,000  in  humber ; 
that  on  Friday  the  2d  of  June  it  was  resolvedly 
they  should  meet,  at  ten  o'clock  in  the  morn- 
ing, in  St.  George's-fields,  in  four  separate 
divisions  or  columns,  arrayed,  or  dressed  in 
their  best  clothes. 

Mr.  Kenyon,  Was  it  arrayed  or  dressed  ?•— 
A.  1  think  his  words  were,  ''to  have  your 
best  clothes  on,  with*  blue  cockades  in  your 
hats,  as  he  himself  sfiould  wear  a  blue  cock- 
ade, to  distin^ish  them  from  other  people 
who  were  Papists  or  friends  to  Roman  Ca- 
tholics.'' His  lordship  gave  orders  how  these 
four  diflerent  bodies  snould  take  their  ground, 
and  what  fields  they  should  assemble  in.  X 
cannot  charge  my  memory  exactly  with  the 
positions  of  those  four  columns,  but  I  think 
the  London  division  were  to  go  to  the  field  on 
the  right  of  the  road. 

Court.  Do  you  at  all  recollect  the  order  ?— 
A.  I  cannot  charge  my  memory. 

Do  you  recollect  any  thing  you  heard  said 
by  the  prisoner? — Not  that  evening ;  but  I 
vecollect  some  evenings  before,  at  the  Crown 
and  Rolls,  lord  George  Gordon  being  present, 
his  lordship  read  over  the  preambles  or  certain 
parts  of  penal  laws  of  Charles  the  2d,WiIIiai^ 
and  Maiy,  and  Georges  the  2d.  After  reading 
those  acts,  he  observed,  ''^That  by  his  ma- 
jesty's giving  his  assent  to  the  Quebec  law» 
and  the  late  act  of  parliament  tolerating  the 
Roman  Catholics  in  England,  his  counsellors 
had  brought  him  to  that  pass  or  situation  in 
which  James  the  2d  was  aner  his  abdication.*' 
One  of  the  Jury.  Were  those  his  lordship's 
words  ?^^.  As  nearly  as  I  can  recollect. 
He  then  read  his  majesty's  coronation  oath» 
and  said  ^  It  was  his  opinion,  that  his  nuyesty 
had  broken  that  oath,'^  He  observed,  that 
^  the  people  in  his  countiy  did  not  mince  the 
matter,  they  spoke  out,  or  spoke  their  minds 
freely,  and  avowed  it  to  be  true.'* 

Do  you  remember  any  thing  else  ? — ^I  do 
not  recollect  any  thing  else ;  these  are  the 
most  emphaticalexprcssions  I  caachargp  mf 
fnemofjr  with. 


SIS] 


Jkf  H%A  Trrmatk 


JL  D.  lliU 


[514 


Hmoid^tKAteaAiiodtf  u  pntent,  any  other 
inflammatoiy  expssawm  made  use  ef  by 
leni  George  OorooDy  either  «t  €o«chineker*s- 
bally  or  any  of  the  preeedhig  meethigs  ?-*>* 
None. 

Did  you  so  to  the  meeting  in  St.  Ge<>rgeV 
fiidda,  on  me  Snd  of  June ) — I  went  there^ 
but  did  not  mix  amon^  the  people. 

Did  yon  see  a  mtdtitiide  of  people  gathered 
together  there  ?-r~A  ^^^^  rauHitude. 

Ose  of  the  Jury.  What  number  do  yon 
imagine  there  might  be  }^^l  cannot  tell ;  I 
had  never  seen  so  manv  together  before,  and 
could  not  make  a  calculation. 

Had  thtr  any  partkular  marks  or  badges  ? 
<— They  haa  aU  cockades^  aad  there  were  ban- 


Wae  airv  thine  written  upon  the  banners  or 
the  cockades  ?— -N  oth'mg  on  the  cockades  that 
i  observed.  On  the  bannein  I  think  i  saw 
Piotestant  Association;  and  one  banner  I 
bcBeve  had  No  Popery !  en  it 

Did  yoa  aee  the  piisoner  there  ?— Yes.  I 
saw  him  at  a  great  distance ;  he  was  ff>ing 
off  the  ieM  then  towards  the  House  of  Corn- 


Did  you  hear  him  address  himself  to  this 
■dUitnde  ? — 1  coold  see  lord  Oeorce  Gordon 
was  hmuoBuina  the  people,  b«t  I  wao  not 
■ear  enou^  to  hear  what  be  said. 

Wfaicb  W1.T  did  Ms  multhade  mawh?-^ 
I  can  serf  noming  of  thcbr  marching,  further 
ten  what  I  saw  in  Fleet  street.  I  came 
home  and  saw  them  come  through  FleeC- 
aiteet,  and  march  b^  St.  Dunstan's  churchy 
b»  fbw  way  to  the  llonse  of  Commons. 

Was  there  a  brge  number  came  that  way  ? 

Ibid  they  die  same  cockades  and  banners? 
— -Yes^  the  same  cockades,,  and  one  or  two  of 
the  banners. 

Did  you  afterwaith  on  that  day  come  down 
towards  the  House  of  Commons? — ^I  did. 

Did  yew  see  a  nnaaber  of  the  same  people 
aboirt  the  ttouse?*-i  dad;  they  appeared  to 
be  the  same  people. 

Had  they  the  same  coekades  and  banners  ? 
—Yes,  they  had* 

Did  you  get  into  the  lobby  of  the  Heme  of 
CSommons  ? — ^I  was  there  about  three  hours. 

Was  that  filled  with  some  of  this  multi^ 
tade  ?— The  lobby  was  crowded  with  them. 

What  was- their  behaviour  ? — Very  riotous. 
The  nofse  was  generally  occasioned  by 
•faiaaiag  of  lonl  George  Gordon's  name. 
liord  C^age  Ooadon's  name  was'  the  con- 
afeant  cUme.  The  great  noise  appeared  to 
me  to  be  made  Vf  those  wotfds,  Lord  George 


Do  yeu  f  eooHeot  their  calling  out  at  all  to 
any  of  the  nieaibers  of  i^e  Honse  of  Com-' 
mons  who  were  in  the  lobby  ^— I  remember 
•we  er  time  members  coming  into'the  gal- 
lay  oter  the  lobby  o€  the  House  and  sp^.- 
iMrtotbem. 

uo  yon  remember  the  mob  ciying  out  to 
~^    people  ift  the  lobby  ^I  caonoi^  pvettod 

VOL.  XXI. 


to  say^  there  irat  hseh  great  cmlfiinon  and 
noise. 

While  tiiese  people  were  in  the  lobby,  and 
you  were  there,  aid  you  see  lord  George  Gor- 
don ?— I  saw  mr  lord  George  Gordon  once  ia 
the  place  over  tne  lobby. 

Did  you  hear  him  say  anv  thipg  at  that 
time  ?^Yes.  He  exhorted  them,  *'  to  con« 
tinue  sted^tly  to  acttiere  to  so  good  and 
dorious  a  cause  as  their's  was.  He  promised 
he  would  persevere  in  it  himself,  and  he 
hoped,  although  there  was  very  little  expeeta* 
tion  from  the  House  of  Commons,  that  they 
would  meet  with  redbess  iirom  their  mik)  or 
gracious  sovereign.'* 

Do  yoa  iceeUect  any  thing  else  in  partis 
cular  ?— i  think  that  b  the  sebstance  of  every 
thing  I  heard  his  loidshlp  sav;  I  have  re^ 
peated  all  the  words  thai  I  tooroughly  re- 
member. 

One  (^  ihe  Jury.  Are  you  thoroughiT  sa* 
tfsfied  that  you  liave  repeated  the  words  of 
lord  George  Gordon  ? — I  am. 

Do  you  recollect  seeing  any  ftags  at  any 
other  place  in  the  course  of  the  mischief 
which  folkmed?— I  saw  one  of  the  flags  at 
the  burning  of  the  Fleet-prison ;  that  flag 
which  had  the  words  No  Poperv !  oa  h. 

Could  you  perceive  Aether  the  person  who 
had  the  na^  at  the  Fleet-prison,  was  one  you 
had  seen  in  St.  George^s-fieldsy  or  about  ihe 
House  of  Commons  ? — I  am  veiy  dear  it  was 
tbt  flame  man,  for  I  looked  at  hnn. 

Where  was  it  you  had  before  seen  that 
nan,  you  saw  with  Ihe  flag  at  the  Fleet- 
prisonx?--!  saw  him  car#ying  that  flag  m 
Floet-acreet. 

Do  you  raeoft  at  the  time  when  the  moltKu 
tude  marched  to  the  House  of  Commons  ?--^ 
Yes ;  and  I  saw  that  very  man  at  Westmin* 
ster. 

It  was  on  Friday  the  nmltitude  were  here ; 
were  yoi»  at  either  the  Sanhnian  or  Bavarian 
ambassador's  chapels? — I  waa  at  that  ehapol 
in  LinoolnVinn-nelds. 

At  what  time  on  Friday  night  were  yoil 
there  f—1  think  it  was  about  ten  o^cletk. 

Did  you  see  any  mischief  done  there  ? — A 
great  dead.  I  was  astonished  at  1A»  cniel«/ 
of  what  i  saw. 

What  was  the  cry  of  the  people  who  wer^ 
emplbyed  in  that  business  ? — ^It  generally  wasy 
No  Popeiy  I 

Had  ike  persons  that  we#e  doing  that  mis- 
chief blue  cockades  m  their  hats  ? — I  did  not 
see  a  ^ngle  cockade  in  the  chapel ;  I  saw 
aaany  with  blue  cockade»  before  1  got  into 
the  chapel,  in  the  same  street,  Duke^etreet. 

tM  those  persons  form  a  part  of  the  same 
mob  that  did  the  mischief  ?— They  seemed  to 
be  by-standers,  they  stood  encoura^s  them* 

Did  the  people  ivmh  blue  cockades  join  with 
the  people  who  were  crying  No  Popery  ? — IB 
was  while  I  was  within  the  chapeT,  I  heard 
the  cry  without  tiie  chapel.  The  person  who 
did  alt  the  mischief,  whom  I  saw  in  the 
chapel,  had  no  hat  on ;  there  wen  about  fivef 

3  L 


515]  21  GEORGE  m.      Proeeedingi  againa  Lord  George  GordoHf      [510 


or  six  people  in  the  chipel^  but  that  man  was 
the  most  active. 

One  cf  the  Jury.  You  say  those  that  did 
the  mischief,  had  no  cockades  in  their  hats  ? 
— ^.  I  did  not  see  them  have  any. 

One  of  the  Jury,  You  said  those  that  had 
cockades  encouraged  them;  what  do  you 
mean  by  encouragmg  them  ? — A.  The  same 
as  at  all  the  fires ;  they  stood  by  and  protected 
and  encouraged  them. 

Were  you  present  at  any  other  fires,  or  the 
demoHtion  ot  axiy  other  houses  ? — ^I  was  pre- 
sent at  several  of  the  fires. 

Were  you  present  at  Mr.  Langdale's? — ^I 
stood  there  about  a  quarter  of  an  hour,  I  do 
not  recollect  the  exact  day,  but  it  was  the 
same  day  of  the  fire  at  the  King's-bench,  and 
the  fire  at  the  Fleet-market,  the  Fleet-prison. 
.  Did  the  same  cry  prevail  there  of  No 
Popery? — ^The  very  same,  that  was  obvious 
to  eveiy  body. 

Do  you  recollect  being  present  at  any  other 
fire?— ^ Yes;  at  a  public  nouse*the  comer  of 
Lincoln's  inn-fields;  they  brought  the  fiirni- 
ture  out  and  burnt  it. 

Do  you  recollect  any  other  ? — ^Yes,  I  saw 
another  house  demolished  in  Great  Queen- 
streety  but  I  do  not  know  whose  house  it  was. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Kenyan, 

Pray  what  are  you  ?--By  trade,  a  printer. 

Do  you  print  on  your  own  account,  or  are 
you  a  servant  to  any  person  ? — I  print  on  my 
own  account. 

I  believe  you  have  had  misfortunes  in  the 
world,  you  were  a  banknipt? — Yes. 

When  did  you  first  resort  to  these. meetings 
of  the  Protestant  Association  as  they  called 
themselves?—!  said  on  the  evening  of  the 
10th  of  December. 

Was  that  the  first  time  ? — ^Yes. 

And  you  went,  from  time  to  time,  to  all 
the  meetings  that  were  held  afterwards? — 
Yes,  to  the  public  meetings. 

You  were  at  several  places  where  lord 
George  Gordon  did  not  attend  ? — Yes. 

You  have  mentioned  one  place  where  lord 
George  Gordon  was,  at  Greenwood's  rooms ; 
now  I  desire  you  to  recollect,  and  say,  whe- 
ther you  saw  him  at  Greenwood's  rooms  ? — I 
think  I  saw  my  lord  once  there,  and  I  was 
there  once  when  he  was  not ;  I  was  there 
twice. 

I  caution  you  to  be  upon  your  euard. — I 
will;  it  is  a  very  serious  matter;  I  think  lord 
George  was  once  at  Greenwood's  rooms,  and 
that  tne  association  was  there  once  without 
his  lordship. 

Then  you  cannot  speak  with  certainty  } — 
Unless  I  look  at  some  notes  I  cannot  tell;  I 
have  some  notes  here. 

Did  you  make  them  at  the  time  ? — Yes,  I 
generally  made  them  that  evening. 

Court,  You  may  refiresh  your  memory  with 
them.  [Looks  at  his  notes.] — On  the  31st  of 
January,  lord  George  Gordon  vras  not,  I  find, 
present  at  Greenwood's. 


Then  vou  were  mistaken  in  that  part  of 
your  evidence  ? — I  was  mistaken. 

How  came  you,  finom  time  to  time,  to  make 
notes  of  what  passed  at  these  several  meet- 
ings?— I  shall  be  very  free  in  telling  vou,  that 
I  had  an  idea  then,  that  this  would  bie  the 
consequence  of  these  meetings,  1  went  almost 
purposely  to  take  notes  of  them. 

And  you  went  on  that  account  to  take  notes 
of  what  passed  ? — ^A  curiosity  at  first  led  me 
there,  but,  when  I  saw  what  sort  of  people 
they  were,  I  was  willing  to  look  larther  aner 
them^  for  I  dreaded  the  consequence  of  their 
meetmgs. 

How  soon  had  you  this  foresight  of  what 
would  happen.  In  the  month  ^  December 
you  foresaw  what  would  happen  ? — ^I  did  not^ 
I  said  no  such  thing ;  I  foresaw  it  on  the  SOth 
of  February. 

Then  the  first  time  you  foresaw  it  was  on 
the  30th  of  February?— I  had  foreseen  the 
evil  consequences,  as  far  as  man  could,  befi^NPe 
that  time,  but  on  the  80th  of  February  I  had 
even  written  my  thoughts  upon  it. 

Then  the  30th  of  Februa^  was  the  fint 
time  you  began  to  draw  your  conclusions?-* 
It  vras. 

Then  how  came  your  notes  and  memoran- 
dums to  have  a  date  prior  to  that,  yon  have 
notes  so  early  as  the  3 1st  of  January  ? — ^Witb- 
out  those  notes,  I  could  not  come  to  that  con- 
clusion in  my  own  mind  about  the  conse- 
quences; I  took  notes  on  the  10th  of  D^ 
cember. 

I  must  return  again  to  the  question  I  asked 
before ;  how  came  you  first  to  take  notes  ? — ^I 
never  go  to  any  public  meeting  but  I  have  an 
errand ;  I  wished  to  learn  what  those  gentle- 
men would  be  at ;  I  put  down  then  what  oc- 
curred, and  then  entered  it  down  afier  I  came 
home. 

That  is  your  constant  course  in  all  occur- 
rences of  life  ? — Yes. 

Can  you  tell  us  any  one  occurrence  of  your 
Ufe,  where  you  have  committed  to  writing 
every  thing  that  passed  ? — I  do  not  know  any 
one  meeting  of  that  kind,  but  I  have  put  down 
as  much  as  ray  memory  would  help  me  to. 

How  many  meetings  of  this  kina  have  you 
resorted  to  ? — ^I  never  resorted  to  any  others 
of  this  kind. 

You  said  you  never  attended  any  meetings 
respecting  tliis  kind  of  business,  where  you 
did  not  commit  to  writine  what  passed ;  now 
I  want  to  know,  what  other  meetings  besides 
the  Protestant  Association  you  have  attended  f 
— I  have  attended  a  great  many  meetings^ 
but  I  cannot  pretend  to  recite  them. 

Have  you,  upon  vour  oath,  before  God  and 
your  coimtiy,  put  down  every  thing  that  pass- 
ed at  those  meetings  ? — ^I  do  not  comprehend 
the  nature  of  your  question. 

Have  you  set  down  any  transactions  at  any 
other  meetings,  except  those  of  the  Protestant 
Association  ? — ^I  have  many  times  undoubt- 
edly. 

Tell  me  when  and  where?^Tbe  first  notes 


SIT] 


Jcit  High  Treason^ 


A.  D.  1781. 


[518 


I  mule  in  my  life,  were  in  the  general  assembly 
of  the  chisrch  of  ^  Scotland,  the  very  fint 
dnuch  I  was  ever  in,  in  my  life. 

How  lone  is  that  igp  ? — Twenty  two  years 
•go ;  so  eany  as  tha^  and  in  1765  and  1766, 
I  took  notes  aeain. 

Did  you  do  mat  because  you  had  a  fcwesight 
of  any  ill  consequences  that  would  ensue  £rom 
those  meetingsr — ^I  wished  to  know  what  was 

Sing  on  there,  or  to  oblige  a  friend  to  inform 
B  what  was  doins. 

You  were  not  on^  at  meetings  of  the  Pro- 
testant Association  that  were  advertised,  but 
happened  likewise  to  be  casually  at  the 
chapel  in  Duke-street,  at  Mr.  Lan^ale's,at 
a  house-burning  in  Lincoln's-Inn-^lds,  at  a 
faouse-buminz  m  Great  Queen-street,  and  at 
Newgate? — ^The  first  you  mention,  was  the 
buoiung  the  Roman  Catholic  chapel.  I  was 
coming  home;  a  young  gentleman  was  with 
me. 

Tell  me  his  name. — ^M'Millan,  he  is  here. 

Where  did  you  meet  with  him? — I  met 
with  him  accidentally;  when  we  had  notice 
th^  were  demolishing  the  chapel,  we  were  I 
think  coming  by  Covent-garden,  and  we  di- 
rected our  course  there. 

Coming  home  from  whence  ? — From  West- 
minster. 

From  the  lobby  1  suppose? — ^Veiy  likely 

At  the  time  when  you  were  in  St.  OeoreeV 
fields  bad  you  a  blue  cockade  in  your  hat  r — I 
never  had  m  my  Ufe. 

Tou  say  you  were  in  the  lobby  of  the  House 
ef  Commons? — I  was. 

Did  you  go  into  the  lobby  with  persons 
who  hsLd  blue  cockades  in  their  hats  ? — Th^y 
-were  all  there  long  before  me.  I  went  down 
sAer  I  had  dined. 

Being  crowded,  and  the  place  being  full, 
still  there  was  room  for  you  to  get  in? — 
Scarcely.  I  went  in  with  alderman  Saw- 
bndse. 

What  hour  did  you  get  there  ?-*At  six  or 
seven  o^clock,  I  oeueve. 

When  did  you  leave  the  lobby?— At  nine 
</clock ;  I  looked  at  my  watch  when  I  came 
out,  it  was  nine  or  perhaps  ten  minutes  after 
lune. 

You  say,  at  the  time  you  were  in  the  lobby, 
there  wks  a  great  riot  and  confusion,  and  you 
could  not  hear  what  passed  there  ? — ^I  heard 
exceeding  well,  too  well  what  passed  there, 
there  was  a' great  noise,  I  heard  lord  George 
Gordon's  name  pronounced  vociferously. 

The  lobby  is  not  a  very  large  room.  Were 
there  a  gpbd  number  of  people  of  the  same 
description  as  yourself,  that  were  there  merely 
fiom  curiosity  ? — I  saw  none  such,  it  did  not 
come  from  curiosity. 

Then  you  were  the  single  individual,  that 
stood  distinguished  from  all  the  rest  who 
were  there  ? — ^There  were  more  than  I  there ; 
there  was  that  man  M'Millan,  and  an  'a|>- 
prentice  of  my  own;  I  took  them  on  purpose^ 
with  me. 


That  they  might  be  of  what  use  ?— I  wanted 
to  enauire  afier  some  particular  friends:  I 
was  anaid  they  might  be  hurt,  I  was  afraid  of 
myself. 

Being  afraid  of  yourself^,  you  who  were  not 
in  the  crowd  before,  nor  in  danger  of  being 
hurt,  under  ideas  you  might  he  hurt  you 
went  into  the  crowd  in  the  lobby? — I  was 
willing  to  see  what  they  were  about. 

Which  of  your  friends  did  you  conceive  to 
be  in  danger  ?-^When  an  alarm  of  that  kind 
is  eone  out,  one  cannot  but  have  some  friend 
in  danger;  I  cannot  charge  my  memory  with 
any  particular  friend. 

You  said  lord  George  Gordon  desired  they 
would  meet  at  ten  in  the  morning,  and  put  on 
their  best  clothes,  or,  as  you  choose  to  intro- 
duce it  in  your  discourse,  to  be  arrayed  ia 
their  best  clothes,  which  was  the  word  as  fiur 
as  you  can  recollect? — I  think  it  was,  "  be 
sure  to  be  in  your  best  clothes/'  or  ^  be  dres^ 
ed  in  your  best  clothes.'' 

He  gave  orders  they  should  be  in  four 
what  — —  ? — Divisions. 

Columns  you  called  them? — I  said  columns 
or  divisions. 

In  St.  GeorgeVfields  you  were  a  consider- 
able distance  from  lord  George;  how  near 
were  you  to  the  persons  who  carried  the  two 
flags  ? — I  saw  one  of  the  flags  carried  by  a 
constable  on  my  lefl  hand ;  I  was  in  the  road;% 
I  did  not  go  into  the  field. 

The  persons  who  carried  the  flags  were  I 
suppose  surrounded  by  the  rest  of  the  multi- 
titude  ? — ^No ;  they  were  not  surrounded ;  I 
remember  the  London  division  marching 
round,  and  the  flags  were  carried  but  not  sur- 
rounded ;  I  saw  them  pass.  The  flag,  was  in 
the  front  of  them. 

Did  you  accompany  the  London  division 
over  the  bridge  ? — ^No ;  I  came  over  Black- 
friars  bridge^  and  went  home  directly. 

About  what  hour  was  that? — About  two 
o'clock. 

At  what  hour  did  you  leave  your  house  to 
go  down  to  the  House  of  Commons? — I  will 
not  positively  swear  to  that,  it  ^was  between 
five  and  six  o'clock. 

And  you  went  down  immediately  to  the 
lobby  of  the  House  of  Commons?— I  was 
there  between  six  and  seven  o'clock. 

Then  all  the  people  that  had  passed  by 
were  in  the  avenues  of  the  House  of  Commons 
before  this? — ^Yes. 

By  what  good  luck  then  did  you  happen  to 
seethe  flag  in  FleetrStreet?  Where  is  your 
house  ?— Next  St.  Dunstan's  church ;  I  went 
upon  the  leads  on  purpose  to  see  them  with 
this  Mr.  M'Millan. 

One  of  the  persons  you  saw  with  ar  flag  in 
Fleet-street  you  saw  afterwards? — ^Yes;  at 
the  Fleet-prison  and  in  Westminster. 

Can  you  describe  his  dress? — I  cannot 
charge  my  memory ;  it  was  a  dress  not  worth 
mindinff,.  a  very  common  dress. 

i^  he  his  own  hair  or  a  wie  ? — If  I  recoil 
lect  he  had  black  hajfj  shortish  hair  I  think. 


61SI 


m  GPO&Q^  III.      Proceedings  i^ainH  l^i4  George  Gordon,      [$fQ 


Was  there  soiBfChiiig  rewiM^loiblf  «bout  Ms 
bairF — ^No;  I  dp  not  r^nember  any  Uiiag 
vemarkable;  be  was  a  coarse  looking  mail; 
be  appeared  to  me  like  a  brewer's  servant  48 
his  best  ctolhes. 

How  do  you  know  a  brawar's  servant  wben 
be  is  in  bis  best  clothes  from  another  man  ^-^ 
It  is  out  of  my  power  to  deseiibe  it  better 
than  I  do ;  he  appeared  to  me  to  be  such. 

I  ask  you  how,  by  what  mark,  do  you  dis- 
tinguish a  brewer's  servant  from  another 
man? — There  is  something  in  a  brewer'a  s«v 
vant,  in  lus  condition  of  hfe^  different  from 
other  men. 

There  may  be  lor  what  I  know;  but  tell 
me  how  vou  distinguish  a  brewer's  servant 
from  another  man^ — Be  so  good  a3  to  state 
the  question  aaaiu. 

If  there  can  he  a  doubt  what  the  ^question 
means  in  any  one  of  this  audience,  you  diaJl 
have  it  repeated ;  you  said  this  man  was  like 
a  brewer's  servant,  I  asked  you  by  what  mark 
vou  are  able  to  distinguish  a  man  to  be  a 
brewer's  servant  rather  than  of  any  other 
trade  ?— I  think  a  brewer's  servant's  breeches, 
clothes,  and  stockings  have  something  very 
distinguishing. 

Tell  me  what  in  his  breeches,  and  ^e  cut 
of  his  coat  and  stockings  it  was  by  which  you 
distinguished  him? — 1  cannot  swear  to  any 
particular  mark. 

Then  you  had  no  reason  upon  earth  to  use 
that  word  which  came  so  flippant  over  your 
tongue,  that  he  was  like  a  brewer's  servant  ? 
— ^I  cannot  answer  that  question  if  you  put  it 
to  me  a  hundred  times. 

You  said  that  one  of  the  persons  who  car- 
ried ooiQ  of  the  flags  in  St.  Oeorge's-fields  was 
a  constable  ? — ^Yes ;  I  said  so. 

How  do  you  know  he  waa  a  constable  ? — 
The  man  was  very  remarkable ;  his  name  is 
Payne,  he  is  a  cky  constable. 

rray  ai^  you  of  the  church  of  England,  or 
of  the  kirk  of  Scotland,  or  a  Roman  CaihoHc? 
-^I  am  of  the  church  of  England. 

Mr.  Att,  Gen,  That  questioo  was  objeded 
to  in  the  case  of  sir  John  Friend.* 

Court,  Certainly  you  are  not  permitted  to 
ask  that  question. 

Mr.  Att,  Ge».  That  was  determined  hy 
four  judges. 

[Here  Mr.  Hay  went  away  a3  vwther  per- 
son was  called,  but  was  called  in  again.] 

Mr.  Kmyon,  Let  me  ask  jou  how  you 
came  to  stay  so  long  in  -lihe  lobby  ?*-<!^.  I 
cannot  answer  thb  question  fiirther,  ihao 
wishing  to  see  the  end  of  it,  or  som^hing  of 
that  sort. 

Whsit  time  was  it  you  saw  lord  Oeerge 
Gordon  in  the  balconv,  at  what  hour  K— I  be- 
lieve I  heard  his  lorawip  once,  and  saw  him 
once. 

When  you  were  afraid  of  all  this  mischief, 
did  you  impart  your  fears  to  any  one  of  the 


^•*m 


mmm 


♦  S«e  rol.  x^  p.  U. 


secretaries  of  atate,  or  a  «ivil  magiitratey  ol 
any  body /—I  certainly  did  imnait  my  £aani« 
and  mv  dread  of  the  hav«c  making  to  aloMwl 
everybody. 

But  I  mean  lone  before  }-^l  did  eoouniioit 
cate  them  long  before. 

To  vhom  ?-^A  gentleman ;  I  would  nther 
not  mention  the  gentleroaft's  name. 

$ut  yeu  must  do  it?*^  wnnte  mysenlip 
ments  of  theie  matters  to  a  very  paitioahur 
friend,  my  sentiments  of  this  association 
meeting. 

You  are  asked  who  that  particular  friend 
is  ^---Mr.  Butler  of  LincolnVirai. 

Mr.  Butler  is  a  gentleman  I  have  likewiae 
the  honour  of  knowing ;  Mr.  Buder  is  I  axor 
derstand  a  Roman  Camolie  ^J  never  aakad 
him  the  questioii. 

If  he  is  your  particular  friend,  have  yon  any 
doubt  about  it  ?.--I  have  beard  he  is  a  Romao 
Catholic,  I  don't  know  that  he  is ;  I  have  m 
very  high  opinion  of  him. 

So  have  I ;  but  have  you  the  least  deubt  of 
his  beine  a  Roman  Catholic  ? — I  have  heard 
he  is.  I  will  not  answer  the  question  becmutM 
I  don't  know  it. 

Mr.  William  Melcalf  ^yrom. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Bearcrqft. 

Do  you  know  the  prisonef,  kad  George 
Gordon  ? — ^I  do. 

Were  you  at  Coachniaker's4iaU  at  any 
time  in  the  course  of  last  summer  ?-^I  was. 

On  what  day  ?~I  really  do  not  know  what 
day  it  was,  &raiber  than  it  was  the  da^  when 
the  meeting  in  St.  GeorgeViklds  was  ued  oa. 

Did  you  see  lord  George  Gordon  there  f — I 
did. 

What  munber  of  peopk  might  be  at  Concb- 
maker'&-hall  ? — I  am  npt  able  to  judse  what 
number  of  people  there  were,  but  the  nail  was 
so  full  tiiat  I  could  not  get  in. 

Did  you  learn  what  the  puipose  of  thm 
meeting  was ;  by  what  was  going  forwards 
tinerie?^  Ad  not  at  that  time;  no  farther 
than  it  was  a  meeting  where  lord  GeofM 
Gordon  was  to  be,  and  I  went  there  merdy 
out  of  curiosity. 

BeooUect  yourself,  and  infom  the  Coyvt 
what  passed  during  the  time  you  were  thare  i 
— I  went  to  a  genUeman  who  had  some  fcnow- 
ledffe  of  the  person  who  I  believe  lives  at  the 
haiOf,  and  by  his  means  I  got  into  the  gallery. 

Relate  what  passed  there,  particular^  what 
fell  from  lord  George  Goiden  himself}-* 
Lord  GeorgjB  Gordon  was  speaking  at  the 
time  I  went  in ;  I  heard  him  desire  them  to 
nwet  him  in  St.  George^s-fields ;  he  reminded 
them^  ^that  the  Scotch  had  succeeded  hy 
unanmity,  and  he  desired  that  they  would 
likewise  be  unanimous;  he  hoped  ao  oae 
who  had  signed  the  Petition  would  be  asham- 
ed or  afraid  to  shew  himself  in  the  cause ; 
that  he  would  not  present  the  Petition,  or 
that  he  begged  leave  to  decline  it,*'  (I  diont 
attemot  to  use  his  lordship's  woods,  it  is  ' 
possible)  ^^  unless  he  was  met  in 


aei] 


Jbt  High  Tretuon. 


fields  bj  90,000  people ;  aod  he  raconuxitn^ 
«i  to  them  to  come  with  some  mark  of  dis- 
tiaction,  audi  m  a  blue  ribband  in  their  bats," 
or  voids  lo  that  effect  ;^  ^*  thai  ihej  aught  be 
able  to  disluiguisb  their  friends  from  their 
Ibes/'  or  to  that  purport;  '*  that  he  himself 
mwld  be  there  to  meet  them^  and  would  be 
aneverable  for  any  of  them  that  should  be 
molested  for  meetiQff  there ;  that  he  wished 
ao  well  to  the  cause  that  he  would  go  to  the 
allows  ia  it  or  for  it/'  words  to  t&t  effect ; 
I  know  the  word  ^  gsllows"  was  mentioned ; 
but  the  Goneomitant  words  I  do  not  recollect, 
^  but  that  he  would  not  present  the  Petition 
of  a  lukewami  people/'  I  forgot  to  tell  your 
kvdahip,  that  lord  Geon|e  Gwdon  told  them 
to  **  meet  in  four  bodies  in  St  Geor^'»- 
fields  ;*'  each  body  I  think  was  '^  to  take  one 
quarter  of  St.  Geoi^e's^elds/' 

Do  you  recollect  any  tlune  more  that  fell 
from  lord  Goorae  Gordon  at  uie  time  you  are 
speaking  of? — 1  do  not. 

Were  you  in  the  lobby  of  the  House  of 
Commcms  on  Friday  the  and  of  June? — I  was 
not  there  at  all. 

Were  you  about  the  House  of  Commons  at 
all  ? — ^I  was  not. 

Were  you  in  St  Georse's-fields  at  the  time 
that  had  been  appointed?— -I  was. 

What  time  did  you  get  there  ? — ^I  believe  I 
might  be  there  at  about  half  past  ten  or  eleven 
e'ckKk. 

Did  you  see  the  prisoner  there  ?-*I  saw 
bim  come  in  a  coach. 

Recollect  yourself  and  give  an  account  of 
what  passed  there,  particularly  what  fell  horn 
lord  George  Gordon  himself?-^!  did  not  hear 
a  word  from  lord  George ;  all  that  I  saw  was. 
that  there  was  a  vast  number  of  paople,  ana 
that  they  were  occupying  four  difterent  parts 
of  the  field,  in  four  distinct  bodies ;  there 
were  two  bodies  that  were  formii^  like  soU 
diers  almost,  eight  or  nine  a^breast,  a  vast 
number  of  them ;  I  did  not  see  them  so  well 
formed  in  any  other  part  as  in  that  part. 

Was  there  any  particular  distinction 
amongst  them  ? — I  saw  blue  ribbands  in  their 
bats ;  some  bad  the  words  <  No  Popery !' 
upon  the  ribband. 

What  number  of  people  mig;ht  there  be 
tmembked  ia  the  fielas  ?-^I  imagine  I  speak 
arithin  compass  when  I  say  there  were  90,000. 

Did  you  stay  till  they  quitted  the  place  ? — 
J  did  not;  I  left  them  there. 

Did  you  see  any  thing  that  struck  you  par- 
ticularly  ? — ^I  saw  lord  George  Gotdan  stand- 
nug  surrounded  by  a  vast  number  of  peopie, 
aad  I  understood  him  to  be  speakma  to 
them^  but  I  was  not  near  enough  to  bear  nim 


You  left  lord  George  Gordon  m  St  Geovge'a- 
fields,  I  believe  ? — I  cannot  say  whether  his 
hirdsbip  was  not  gone  at  that  time. 

Did  you  see  any  thing  more  of  the  prisoner 
that  day  ? — I  did  not 

Cross-Examined  by  Mr.  Erskine, 

You  aaj  th^  hall  was  lo  cff«a*ded  yoii  could 

§ 


A.D.  178L  [522 

not  have  got  ia  unless  by  a  friend?-— I  cQukt- 
not. 

And  you  were  placed  in  the  gallery  ?-nI  gat 
into  the  gallery. 

Can  you  recollect  what  time  of  the  eveainc 
it  was  when  you  got  into  the  gallery  ? — I  tooE 
no  notice  of  it  at  the  time ;  the  only  way  I 
can  ludse  of  it  is,  I  dined  that  day  at  Gold* 
smith's-nall,  which  is  close  to  that  ball ;  and 
after  dinner  we  proposed  to  go  there ;  1  sup< 
pose  it  was  after  six  o'clock. 

How  long  did  vou  stay  ?— I  do  not  think  I 
was  there  more  than  a  quarter  of  an  hour ;  if 
I  was  there  a  quarter  of  an  hour  it  was  tho 
outside. 

Where  was  lord  George  Gradon  when  be 
spoke  this;'  was  he  in  the  chair? — At  the 
upper  end  of  the  room. 

Vou  made  use  of  an  expression  which  after- 
wards you  said  you  were  not  sure  about ;  you 
used  the  word '  gallows'  ? — ^I  said  I  would  not 
be  positive  to  the  exact  words  in  which  lord 
George  Gordon  expressed  himself ;  but  that 
he  would  go  to  the  gallows  in  the  cause,  or  for 
the  cause,  or  to  that  effect. 

Are  you  sure  of  the  word  ^  gallows'  ? — I  ana 
veiy  sure  he  made  use  of  that  word. 

You  did  not  hear  any  more  about  what  the 
cause  was,  did  you? — ^l  understood  at  the 
time,  that  the  meeting  was  for  the  purpose  of 
presenting  the  Petition. 

You  said  you  went  out  of  curiosity,  not 
knowing  the  purpose  of  the  meetina;  and 
then  you  spoke  ot  hearing  of  the  cause  r^-^Yes. 

John  Anstruther*  esq.  swom. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Xm. 

Were  you  at  Co^chmaker's-hail  on  the  991k 
of  May  ?— I  was  there  upon  a  Monday;  I  will 
not  be  positive  as  to  its  being  the  t9th  of 
M^y,  it  was  the  latter  end  of  May. 

Did  you  see  loid  George  Gordon  tbere?'-^ 
did. 

Did  he  or  any  person  else  act  as  president 
in  any  meeting  that  was  then  held? — I  an* 
derslood  bim  to  be  acting  as  president;  ha 
appeared  to  me  to  be  acting  as  president 

What  w^  the  substance  of  the  con^ 
versation  at  that  meeting?— ^I  beard  lord 
Geor&e  Gocdoa  say  '^  he  called  that  meet- 
ing lor  tb«  purpose  of  informing  them 
that  he  meant  to  present  their  ^  Petition^ 
(meaning  the  Petition  of  the  Protestant  As^ 
sociation)  ^  upon  the  Friday  following  to 
the  House  of  Conmions ;  he  desired  them  to 
wntet  him  in  St.  GeorgeV&elds  on  the  Friday 
foUowinc,  fotr  the  purpose  of  presenting  their 
Petition?'  I  do  not  mean  to  be  very  accurota 
as  to  the  words,  it  isiinpossiye  toieeobee^ 
the  very  wwds  at  this  distance  of  time ;  ha 
said,  ^  if  there  was  one-man  less  than  twenty 
thousand  he  would  not  present  the  Petition.^ 
He  dedared,  after  stating  that  if  there  was 
uae  less  tdian  twenty  thousaad  people  ha 
would  not  meet  them  these,  ^  that  withouti 


■■^1 


«  AtewaiJft  cbief  iiiiU<»  at  Cdoatto. 


&2S] 


21  GEORGE  IlL      Proceedingi  against  Lord  George  Gordon^      [524k 


that  number  he  did  not  think  that  their  Peti* 
tion  would  be  of  consequence  enough."  He 
declared  ^^  if  thev  were  fewer  they  must  find 
some  oUier  president  upon  that  occasion ;  he 
would  have  no  more  to  do  with  them ;  he 
recommended  to  them  the  example  of  the 
Scotch,  who  by  their  firmness  had  carried 
their  point"  He  recommended  temperance 
and  firmness,  and  concluded  with  telling 
them  '*  he  did  not  mean  them  to  so  into  any 
danger  that  he  would  not  share;  for  he  was 
ready  to  go  to  death  for  the  Protestant  cause." 

Court,  Was  *  death'  the  word? — ^No ;  I  ra- 
ther believe  '  gallows'  was  the  word,  but  I  will 
not  pretend  to  be  accurate  to  the  veiy  words ; 
that  was  the  principal  purport  of  the  speech  I 
heard  there. 

Was  any  thing  said  that  evening  about  the 
manner  in  which  the  people  were  to  be  dis- 
tinguished when  they  came  to  St  George's- 
fields  ? — That  is  a  circumstance  I  had  forgot ; 
^'  he  desired  all  true  Protestants  and  firiends 
of  the  Petition  to  distinguish  themselves  by 
the  mark  of  blue  cockades ;  he  told  them  he 
would  meet  them  in  St  GeoreeVfields ;  and 
when  they  came  there,  the  body  that  were 
the  London  Association  should  take  the  rieht 
hand,  and  the  Scotch  should  take  the  &f\ 
hand."  He  disposed  of  the  other  two  I  do 
not  exactly  remember  how. 

Were  you  present  near,  or  about  the  House 
of  Commons,  upon  the  Friday  after  the  day 
when  the  Petition  was  actually  presented  ? — 
Upon  the  Friday  alter  I  was  m  the  lobby  of 
the  House  of  Commons,  and  was  about  the 
House  of  Commons  in  the  evening* 

Did  you  see  lord  George  Gordon  there  ?— I 
came  m  by  the  door  that  goes  down  to  the 
House  of  Lords ;  I  came  forward  towards  the 
door  of  the  House  of  Commons ;  when  I  came 
near  the  door  of  the  House  of  Commons,  I 
'  saw  lord  George  leanine  firom  a  gallery  that 
looks  down  into  the  lobby  of  the  House  of 
Commons ;  it  is  the  gallerv  that  goes  from 
the  committee  rooms  to  the  back  door:  I 
heard  lord  George  Gordon  address  the  people 
firom  that  place.  -He  came  out,  as  I  under- 
stood, for  the  purpose  of  telline  them  what 
had  passed  in  the  House.  lie  told  them 
"  that  thev  had  been  called  a  mob  within  the 
House;"  ne  mentioned  '^  that  the  peace-offi- 
cers had  been  called  in  to  disperse  them,"  I 
think  he  said  <<  them  peaceable  petitioners." 

One  of  the  Jury.  Did  he  or  not  say  that } 
^I  think  he  did,  *^  That  thev  had  not  dven 
their  reasons  to  the  House  why  Uiey  had  not 
dispersed  them •  he  believed  thepeace-offi- 
cers  had  signed  the  Petition.  That  some 
people  had  mentioned  in  the  House  some- 
thing relating  to  calling  in  the  mihtaiy.  That 
he  hoped  nobody  wqidd  think  of  taking  a 
step  of  that  sort^  as  it  would  infallibly  tend  to 
create  great  divisions  amongst  his  majest/s 
subjects."  He  went  on  stating  the  unpro- 
priety  of  calling  a  military  force  m  u^n  such 
occasions  in  a  hec  country.  He  again  men» 
tioned  the  Scotch;  pretty  much  in  th«  sane 


terms  that  he  had  done  belwe,  ^*  how  they  b^ 
their  steadiness  and  firmness  had  carried  their 
point;  that  he  had  no  doubt  his  majesty 
would  send  to  his  ministers  to  desire  them  to 
repeal  the  act,  when  ne  found  the  confusion 
it  created"— K>r  rather,  which  b  nearer  the 
idea,  ^  when  his  maj^ty  heard  that  his  sub- 
jects were  coming  up,  were  flocking  firom 
iniles  round,  and  wismne  its  repeal."  There 
was  a  sreat  deal  of  connision  in  the  lobby ; 
several  people  called  to  lord  George  Gordon, 
whether  he  desired  them  to  disperse }  *^  Do 
you  desire  us  to  go  away  ?  Does  lord  Greoige 
Gordon  desire  us  to  so  away  ?"  He  replied, 
"  You  are  the  best  ju&es  of  what  vou  ought 
to  do,  but  I  will  teff  you  how  the  matter 
stands :  the  House  are  going  to  divide  upon 
the  question,  whether  your  Petition  shall  be 
taken  into  consideration  now  or  upon  Tues- 
day. There  are  for  taking  it  into  considera- 
tion now,  myself  and  six  or  seven  others.  If 
it  is  not  taken  into  consideration  now,  your 
Petition  may  be  lost  To-morrow  the  House 
does  not  meet ;  Monday  is  the  king's  birth- 
day; upon  Tuesday  the  parliament  mavbe 
dissolved"— or — *^  prorosjued,"  I  forget  which 
was  the  expression,  "uiat  is  almost  all  I 
heard  him  say.  There  was  a  sood  deal  of 
confiision  in  tiie  lobby;  several  other  mem- 
bers attempted  to  sp^dc,  particularly  Mr. 
Turner;  but  he  was  not  heard.  I  observed 
some  fiuther  conversation  pass  between  lord 
George  Gordon  and  the  chaplain  of  the 
House,  which  I  could  not  overhear. 

Were  the  people  whom  lord  George  Gor- 
don was  then  addressing,  distinguished  fixmi 
the  other  people? — ^There  was  a  vast  num- 
ber of  people  m  the  lobby  of  the  House  in 
blue  cockades,  to  whom  he  was  addressing 
himself.  ' 

Did  you  happen  to  be  in  Scotland  at  the 
time  of  any  riots  there  ? — ^I  was  not 

Of  course  you  do  not  know  what  happened 
there  ? — ^Not  firom  my  own  knowledge. 

The  Rev.  TTiomas  Bowen  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Howorth. 

Did  you  officiate  as  clumlain  in  the  House 
of  Commons  upon  the  Sd  of  Jime  last?— 
I  did. 

Did  you  observe,  in  the  course  of  that  day, 
any  uncommon  concourse  of  people  about 
the  House  of  Commons,  and  in  the  lobby? — 
I  attended  the  Speaker  to  the  House;  the 
lobbv  was  exceedingly  crowded,  and  the  peo- 
ple there  very  clamorous.  We  got  in  without 
much  interruption.  AiW  prayers  were  over, 
r  went  and  sat  under  the  gallery,  not  far  firom 
the  door.  The  tumult  m  the  lobbv  conti- 
nued, and  while  the  House  were  deliberating 
what  measures  they  should  take  to  quell  it,  I 
saw  lord  George  Gordon  frequentiy  go  to  the 
door,  and  heard  him  repeat  to  the  people  in 
the  lobby  what  different  members  had  said  in 
the  debates.  The  Speaker  was  relating  to 
the  House,  for  the  information  of  those  mem- 
bers^ who  had  not  been  present  from  the  be- 


525] 


farlRgh  Treatea, 


A.  D.  1781. 


[598 


gaamg,  several  circumstances  that  had  oo- 
cinred. 

Mr.  Homorth,  You  will  confine  yourself  to 
the  expresskms  lord  Georee  Gordon  made  use 
of  to  tne  people  in  the  ^bby,  while  he  was 
out  of  the  House,  and  not  relate  any  expres- 
sions he  made  use  of  in  the  House? — A.  I 
saw  him  eo  to  the  door,  and  heard  him  say  to 
the  peoptey  "  The  Speaker  of  the  House  of 
Commons  has  just  said  that  you  are  all  come 
here  under  a  pretence  of  religion.''  And  I  think 
his  lordship  then  added,  '*  you  are  good  peo- 
ple, your's  is  a  good  cause."  Afterwards  I 
neard  him  say,  ^'  Mr.  Burke,  member  for 
Bristol,  has  said'' —  the  door  was  then  shut, 
and  I  heard  no  more.  Afterwards  he  called 
out,  "  Mr.  Rous,  member  for  (I  forget  the 
place  which  he  mentioned)  has  just  moved 
that  the  civil  power  be  sent  for,  but  don*t  you 
mind,  keep  yourselves  cool,  be  steady."  At 
another  time  his  lordship  called  out.  **  Lord 
North  calls  you  a  mob."  Once,  wliile  lord 
George  Gordon  was  at  the  door,  I  saw  a  gen- 
tleman go  up  to  him,  who  seemed  to  me  to 
be  persuading  his  lordship  to  return  to  his 


You  say 'seemed'  to  persuade?— I  judged 
so  from  the  manner  of  it.  As  soon  as  lord^ 
Georee  Gordon  turned  round  and  saw  who  it 
was,  ne  calldd  out  to  the  people  '*  this  is  ^ 
Michael  le  Flemine,  he  has  just  been  speak- 
ing for  you."  His  lordship  seemed  to  me  re- 
markably pleased  with  sir  Michael,  he  patted 
or  stroked  nis  shoulder,  and  expressed  a  kind 
of  joy  in  his  countenance  which  I  hardly  know 
how  to  describe ;  it  seemed  to  me  extravagant, 
and  if  1  may  use  the  expression,  childish. 
This  is  all  I  recollect,  to  this  period,  whilst  I 
was  sitting  under  the  gallery  of  the  House. 
When  the  division  was  called  for,  upon  the 

Question  in  the  House,  I  withdrew.  Durinz 
le  delay  and  confiision,  which  was  occasioned 
by  the  people,  who  refused  to  auit  the  lobby, 
and  by  that  means  prevented  me  House  from 
dividing,  I  was  frequently  in  ^e  adjoining 
room ;  once  while  1  was  standing  near  the 
little  gallery  over  the  lobby,  I  saw  some  gen- 
tlemen endeavouring  to  persuade  the  people 
to  retire,  one  of  the  gent&men  asked  me  to 
speak  tQ  them;  accordingly  I  spoke  a  few 
words ;  I  told  them  they  stopped  their  own 
business^  and  beseed  them  to  retire,  I  heard  a 
person  m  the  lobby  say  very  distinctly,  **  if 
Lis  lordship  would  come  and  say  that  it  was 
necessary  for  them  to  go,  they  would  g^." 
Some  time  afler  this  I  went  up  into  the  eating 
room ;  while  I  was  sitting  at  table  lord  Georee 
Gordon  came  into  the  room ;  soon  aftowaras 
there  were  scarce  any  person  leil  in  the  room 
besides  lord  George  Gordon  and  myself;  his 
lordship  had  thrown  himself  into  a  chair,  near 
me,  aiKl  seemed  overcome  with  heat  and  fa- 
tlEue;  I  thousht  the  opportunity  so  fiivour- 
mt  that  I  comd  not  help  telling  his  lordship 
what  I  had  just  heard  from  the  lobby ;  I  told 
him  that  a  person  there  had  said  that  **  if  his 
lordship  would  come  and  say  that  it  was  ne- 


cessary for  them  to  go,  they  would  go,"  and  t 
added  as  my  own  opinion,  that  I  believed  it 
depended  wholly  upon  his  lordship  to  disperse 
them ;  his  lordship  made  no  reply,  and  soon 
afier  left  the  room.  Some  time  after  this,  I 
went  down  stairs,  and  seeing  his  lordship  go 
towards  the  little  gallery  to  address  the  peo- 
ple, I  hastened  to  get  near  him ;  his  lordship 
I  think  beean  with  advising  them,  in  genem 
terms,  **  to  oe  quiet  and  peaceable,  and  steady; 
his  nujesty,"  said  his  lordship, ''  is  a  gracious 
monarch,  and  when  he  hears  that  the  people 
ten  miles  round  (I  think  ten  miles  round  was 
the  expression^  are  collecting;  there  is  no 
doubt  but  that  ne  will  send  his  ministers  pri- 
vate orders  to  repeal  the  Bill."  His  lordsnip 
then  mentioned  the  attempt  that  was  made 
to  introduce  a  Bill  into  Scotland ;  "  the 
Scotch,"  said  his  lordship,  '<  had  no  redress^ 
till  they  pulled  down  the  mass-houses ;  lord 
Weymouth  then  sent  official  assurances,*  that 
the  act  should  not  be  extended  to  them,  and 
why  should  they  be  better  off  than  you  ?" 
Here  I  must  observe  I  have  a  doubt  upon  mr 
mind,  whether  his  lordship  said  **  the  Scotch 
had  no  redress  till  they  puAed  down  the  mas»- 
houses,"  or  whether  ne  said,  ^*  when  the 
Scotch  pulled  down  tlie  mass-houses  they  had 
redress ;"  his  lordship  then  ^'  advised  them  to 
be  quiet  and  peaceable,  and  told  them  to  be* 
ware  of  evil-minded  persons  who  would  mix 
among  them  and  intice  them  to  mischief,  the 
blame  of  which  ri  think  his  lordship  addech 
would  be  imputed  to  them."  It  was  then  I 
think  a  person  in  the  lobby  asked  his  lordship 
"  if  it  was  not  necessary  for  them  to  retire." 

One  of  the  Jury.  Had  that  person  a  blue 
cockade  in  his  hat  f--il.  I  did  not  see  his  person. 
I  only  heard  his  voice.  "  I  will  tell  you  (said 
his  lordship)  how  it  is ;  the  question  was  put,'* 
I  think  he  said  '^  I  moved  the  question  that 
your  petition  be  taken  into  consideration  tliis 
night.  Now,  says  he,  it  was  clearly  asainst 
you,  there  can  be  no  doubt,  but  1  insistedupon 
dividing  the  House ;  no  division  can  take 

{>lace  wnile  you  are  there,  but  to  go  or  not  I 
eave  to  yourselves."  As  soon  as  his  lordship 
had  finished,  he  asked  me,  '*  if  I  would  speak 
to  the  people  ?"  I  said,  by  no  means,  that  his 
lordship  was  the  only  person  who  could  speak 
to  them  with  any  good  effect  His  loraship 
then  took  hold  of  my  gown,  and  presenting  me 
to  the  people,  called  out,  **  this  is  the  clergy- 
man or  the  House  of  Commons.  I  desire  you 
will  ask  him  what  his  opinion  of  the  Popish 
Bill  is,"  and  inunedn^ly  urged  me  to  eive  it 
I  rephed  to  his  lorcRnip^  with  considerable 
warmth,  that  the  only  opmion  I  should  give, 
was,  that  all  the  consequences  whiqh  might 
arise  from  that  night  would  be  entirely  owmg 
to  his  lordship.  Several  gentlemen  that  were 
about  us  repeated  my  words.  His  lordship 
made  no  reply,  and  went  into  the  House. 

Had  you  an  opportunity  of  observing  what 
number  of  people  were  in  the  lobby,  anaabout 
the  House  at  any  time  during  this  conversa- 
tion ?— The  lobby  was  full. 


HBT]  91  GEORGE  Hi. 

Did  jtsu  observe  any  thing  iti  llhelnteof  the 
f^«rsoi»  to  wh<>m  his  lordship  addressed  him- 
9t^i-^l  cannot  say  ahMlutely  that  I  4ad,  I 
tew  his  lordship  had  a  blue  ceckadt^ 

Did  you  hear  any  general  crv  by  the  people 
ill  the  lobby?--They  ofleo  called  out  for  lord 
Oeorge  Gordon :  as  I  i^lloi^ed  the  Speaker  in^ 
Diey  calkd  out,  Repeal,  repeal,  repeal ! 

What  was  the  €<mduct  of  the  persons  in  the 
lobby  ?— They  were  exceedingly  clamorous,  I 
do  not  recoUigct  any  particular  act  of  nolence, 
only  tiiev  made  a  great  noise. 

Was  there  any  articulate  cry  ? — ^i  die  net  ro- 
ttember  any. 

Court.  Couid  the  members  pass  to  arid 
from  the  House  ? — A.  I  saw  seTeral  members 
come  in  with  blue  cockades  in  their  hats; 
they,  seemed  as  if  they  could  hardly  pass 
ti^uiough  the  mob. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Kenjfon. 

You  saw  several  members  with  bhie 
cockades? — I  do  not  know  that  they  were 
members ;  I  saw  sevex^  gentlemen  come  in 
to  take  their  seats,  therefore  I  presume  they 
were  members. 

Seferal  ? — I  believe  there  were  two.  I  saw 
one  take  out  the  cockade,  as  soon  as  he  came 
into  the  House,  and  put  it  into  his  pocket. 

Do  you  recollect  who  that  member  was  ? — 
I  do  not. 

Was  this  conversation  with  k)rd  George  in 
*he  gallery  or  the  lobby  ?— At  the  gallery  that 
looks  into  the  lobby. 

During  that  time  there  was  a  mattnmult 
and  noise  ?— Not  dming  fhe  time  lord  George 
Iras  speaking. 

But  during  the  time  you  had  that  private 
conversation  .^— That  was  not  in  the  gaHery. 

Where  then  w*s  it? — ^It  was  in  the  kitchen, 
1  beKeve  it  Is  called.  • 

The  other  conversation  vow  say  was  in  the 
gallery^  when  he  spoke  to  we  people  ?— In  the 
gallery. 

Were  there  many  people  there  ?-*Ye9. 

Did  you  see .  Mr.  Ansfnither  there  ?"— I  did 
sot. 

r  (nesnme  you  were  un^r  some  saltation 
^  mmd  at  the  time  ? — ^I  was  under  none  tifi 
lord  George  spoke  to  me  tor  give  my  opinion. 

Before  that  time  yon  were  under  no  appro- 
liensions  ?^ — ^No  particnlar  apprehensions. 

Yon  had  your  full  memory  about  you,  and 
now  midertake  to  speak  to  the  very  words. 
You  have  not  redticedf  them  intb  writing,  have 
you ?^— On  Friday  thi»  happened;  the  next 
d^  there  was  an  acconnf  m  the  papers  of 
what  happened  there,  in  which  It  was  men- 
tioned ;  as  I  attended  the  Speaker  as  his  chap- 
lain, I  thou^t  it  necessary  to  write  to  the 
Speaker  to  give  him  an  account  of  i^  which  I 
d  in  part. 

When  lord  George  told  the  people,  that  yon 
were  chaplain  of  theHonse  or  Commons,  that 
put  yon  mto  a  considerable  flurry  of  spirits  ? 
t^In  a  degree  it  did. 

Mr.  Howorth,    How  long,  did  yon  stay  in 


Ldrd  George  Gwdotif      [9S8 

to  House  ?^^  came  siray  with  Mr.  Baoon  m, 
his  carriage. 

At  what  tine  was  tiie  lobby  cleared?--! 
ftiud  till.tha  House  broke  up^  Ihepaaaagto 
were  then  anite  dear. 

Do  yea  Juurw how  tliay  cune  ckarod?— I 
do  not. 

Did  you  see  any  sokhcrs  lAiere  wben  you 
came  away  ?^1  saw  sooie  at  aome  of  the  av^ 
nues. 

Did  you  go  away  as  soon  as  yon  were  able  ? 
— ^I  wished  to  go  away  much  earlier.  I  wont 
away  after  the  House  broke  up.  I  hadaa 
engagement  on  doty  that  evening.  I  went  to 
the  door-keeper  of  the  back  stair-ease,  he  sa^ 
if  I  went  out  tliey  would  not  admit  me  ^gun^ 
therefore  I  waa  oblig^  to  stay.  I  was  &mA 
to  go  out  with  my  gown  on. 

John  Cater ^  esq.  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Danaifi^. 

On  the  2nd  of  June  last  you  were  in  the 
House  of  €oamiona  ?— I  waa. 

Had  you  any  occasion  to  observe  ai^ 
thing  that  passed  inthek)bby  atthataM^-- 
Yes. 

What  did  you  see  or  hear  from  the  fobby 
on  the  9d  of  June  ?-> As  I  had  the  booour  of 
being  in  the  hist  parliament  with  the  noble 
Imtl,  I  shall  be  obliged  to  the  court  for  one 
moment's  mdiilgence  to  explain  my  sitnatioa, 
out  of  respect  to  the  noble  prisoner.  Having 
publicly  rekted  aU  t^at  I  have  bow  to  rela«t, 
m  anoaher  place,  and  in  the  jaresence  of  the 
noble  prisoner, immediately  aner  it  happened^ 
when  I  could  have  so  vielr  of  this  trial,  I 
suppose  to  be  a  reason  why  I  have  been  a^ 
phed  to  by  those  whose  duty  it  is  tocany  on 
this  prosecutioD.  I  hope  the  court  and  the 
noble  prisoner  wiB  seethat  I  am  here  without 
bchoe  officioiiSy  an<l  free  from  malice  or  iU 
will,  but  halving  said  this,  I  muat  lake  the  li- 
bertr  otf  saving,  when  caU«ibelbie  a  coort^  I 
shall  Botshriiuc  freaa  that  evidence. 

Comrt.  There  is  no  apoiogy  necesasfy, 
every  man  maat  eive  his  evkience. — A.  On, 
Fridsiy  the  ti  of  June,  as  I  was  paasiog  fiona 
oneovtheeanmittee^roona,  whuethe  lobby 
waa  filled  with  a  multituda  of  strangefa,  and 
the  Houe  of  ConunmiB  was  landef  a  question 
which  they  could  not  deoide,  aa  the  ser^nt 
and  the  omeers  of  the  Eecne  could  not  dear 
the  k)bby ;  as  I  waes  gofiif  thaeuoh  the  pas- 
sage at  the  top  of  the  stair-case^  mese  thane 
iaa rait thatlooksioto  thek)bby,  I  heasdaad 
saw  a  person  in  the  lobby  who  called  aiond 
two  or  three  times  Lo9d  Geoi^  Gordon!  I 
tamed  90Mnd  and  saw  the  noble  prisoner  near, 
vrho^on  hearing  himself  caUed  came  to  t&e 
nul  and  kKikedover.  I  <M  the  same  ekwe  to 
him.  The  same  person*  said,  "  My  loidv  ^>^ 
are  ordered  to  clear  the  lobbj;;  if  yow  lov^ 
^lip  wishea  we  should  clear  it>  we  wiU  do  k 
Arecttf ,  and  without  any  trouble.*' 

One  cf  tk€  Jufy.  Was  this  one  of  the 
officers  of  the  House? — A,  No,  a  stranger. 
The  noble  prisoner  replied,  **  I  will  tail  yon 


6^ 


Jbr  Hi^  Treason. 


A.  D.  1781. 


[530 


KoW  the  ease  stands:  I  have  moved  to  hsve 
your  pMCtjtioQ  taken  now  into  consideration. 
Alderman  Bull  and  two  or  three  more  are  for 
it,  the  rest  are  against  it ;  therefore  if  jou 
wbh  vour  petition  should  be  taken  now  into 
consideration  you  may  stay  or  do  as  you 
please."  All  in  the  lobby  were  silent  and  at- 
tentive; as  soon  as  the  noble  prisoner  had 
said  what  I  last  related  they  pulled  off  their 
bats,  and  cried,  ^  Now,  now,  now."  I  do  not 
recollect  any  thing  else. 

^as  any  thing  said  by  you  to  lord  George, 
or  by  lord  George  to  you  ? — ^I  recollect  there 
was  a  kind  of  pause.  The  noble  lord  leaned 
over  again,  and  said,  ^  Would  not  you  wish  to 
be  in  me  same  state  they  are  in  in  Scotland  }*' 
fStiey  answered  ^  Yes,  yes,"  and  he  said, 
«  W^  well  ;**  that  is  ail  I  recollect 

• 
Mr.  Joseph  Pearson  sworn. 

Examined  by  Mr.  Norton. 

Tou  are  door-keeper  of  the  House  of  Com- 
mons?— Yes,  I  am. 

Were  you  at  the  House  of  Commons  on 
Friday  the  «d  of  June  last  ? — ^Yes. 

At  what  time? — Between  one  and  two 
Qi'clock. 

Inform  the  court  what  you  observed  in  the 
lobby  at  that  time? — ^A  great  crowd  of  people, 
most,  if  not  sdl,  of  whom  had  blue  cockades 
in  their  hats.  * 

Was  there  any  general  cry  used  by  these 
people? — Yes;  No  Popery,  No  Popery!  A 
repeal,  a  repeal ! 

How  long  did^ese  persons  continue  in 
the  lobby  ?— nil  near  nine  o'clock  at  night,  I 
believe. 

What  was  their  conduct  and  behaviour 
during  the  time  they  were  in  the  lobby  ? — 
What  I  mentioned  before^  caltine  out,  A  Kb- 
pod,  A  repeal!  No  Poperv,  No  Popery! 
When  any  members  came  in  they  cried  out,  A 
repeal,  a  repeal ! 

iMd  you  observe  any  thing  done  by  any  of 
diem  ? — ^No. 

Did  you  observe  the  noble  prisoner  at  the 
bar  there? — ^He  came  to  the  door  two  or 
three  times ;  I  am  not  certain  to  the  number 
of  times:  he  told  them  "  he  should  come  out 
and  let  them  know  what  was  going  on  in  the 
ilouse ;  they  had  a  good  cause,  ana  they  had 
nothing  to  fear."  I^rd  Georee  Gordon  came 
up  once,  and  said  *'  six  Micnael  le  Fleming 
had  spoke  in  their  behalf/' and '<  that  he  spoke 
like  an  ap^el."  They  crowded  much  upon 
file.  I  said,  for  God's  sake,  gentiemen,  keep 
fit^m  the  door.  Lord  George  put  out  his 
hand  in  this  manner,  (waving  it)  and  said, 
**  Pray^  gentiemen,  medce  what  room  you  can ; 
your  cause  is  good,  and  you  have  nothing  to 
fear.*' 

How  was  the  passage  to  the  House  of  Com- 
mons ? — ^Very  much  crowded  in  the  lobby. 

You  say  they  continued  till  near  nine 
Qf'clock  in  the  evening;  how  were  they  at 
kst  got  out,  and  at  wbal  timt?— I  do  not 

VOL.  XXL 


know,  for  in  my  confusion  and  hurry  I  did 
not  mark  what  time  it  was. 

T%oma$  Baker  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Attorney  General, 

You  are  the  lower  door-keeper  of  the 
House  of  Commons  ? — Yes.  ' 

Were  you  there  on  the  2d  of  June  last  ?— 
Yes,  from  twelve  o'clock. 

When  did  the  people  come  to  the  lobby  ?'-^ 
There  were  a  great  many  people  in  the  pas- 
sage when  I  got  there. 

what  was  their  behaviour?— They  were 
all  very  quiet  when  I  went ;  afterwards  the 
passage  was  very  much  crowded,  so  that  it 
was  dmicult  to  make  room  for  the  members 
to  go  up  to  the  lobby ;  by  my  endeavouring 
to  make  room  for  them  they  knew  they  were 
members,  then  thev  called  out,  Repeal!  No 
Popeiy,  No  Popery ! 

How  long  did  thcv  continue  in  this  way  ?--< 
Till  eight  or  nine  o'clock. 

Ho^  were  they  got  out  ?  Do  you  remember 
anycuards  coming? — ^Yes,  they  came  before 
the  lobby  was  cleared. 

Were  you  there  the  Tuesday  following  f-^ 
I  was. 

What  happened  upon  the  Tuesday?— The 
crowd  was  flul  kept  out  on  the  Tuesday. 

How  were  they  kept  out? — By  the  con* 
stables,  I  believe. 

Did  you  see  them  in  the  house  or  street  ?— 
I  did  not. 

Sampson  Wright,  esq.  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Solicitor  General. 

You  are  a  justice  of  the  peace  for  this  city  i 
—lam. 

Were  you  called  for  on  the  Sd  of  June  last 
to  the  House  of  Lords  and  the  House  of  Com- 
mons?— ^I  was. 

Relate  the  occasion  of  your  coming  there; 
what  you  observed ;  what  directions  you  re- 
ceivea  *  and  how  you  executed  them  ? — I  first 
came  down,  between  two  and  three  o'clock  ; 
I  observed  a  vast  number  of  people  there, 
but  seeing  no  disturbance  at  all,  I  went  back 
to  -dinner.  I  returned  back  to  Guildhall, 
Westminster,  at  about  four  o'clock ;  as  soon 
as  I  entered  the  Guildhall,  a  messenger  from 
the  House  of  Lords  told  me  I  was  wanted 
there.  I  went  with  him  to  the  House  of 
Lords,  where  I  received  directions  to  clear 
the  avenues  to  that  House.  The  messenger 
who  came  from  the  Lords  having  told  me 
the  Lords  were  much  interrupted  in  eoing  to 
and  coming  from  the  House,  I  directed  Smith, 
the  court-keeper  at  Guildhall,  to  collect  what 
constables  he  could,  and  come  to  me.  Having 
received  the  directions  I  mentioned  I  return* 
ed  to  the  Guildhall;  I  found  the  windows 
were  much  broken;  when  I  entered  the 
Guildhall  I  found  many  people  running  about 
tiie  House  as  if  seeking  for  somebody.  I  en*^ 
quired  the  occasion. 

That  is  immaterial,  mention  what  you  ob- 
served when  you  came  to  the  House  of  Com- 


581] 


21  GEORGE  in.      Proceedings  maiiut  Lord  George  GordoHf      [589 


mons  ? — There  were  prodi^ous  crowds  there ; 
I  never  saw  such  a  number  of  people  col- 
lected together  in  my  life,  except  upon  one 
occasion^  the  coronation.  I  went  to  the 
Horse-guards ;  from  thence  I  was  directed  to 
St.  James's  to  get  some  of  the  military  to 
assist.  From  thence  I  was  instructed  to  go 
to  the  Savoy.  After  some  time  u  number  of 
the  military  came  to  the  Horse-guards,  and  I 
came  down  with  them  to  the  House  of 
Lords.  The  Lords  were  that  moment  broke 
up ;  I  then  went  to  the  House  of  Commons^ 
and  with  the  guards  I  cleared  the  avenues 
to  the  House  of  Commons  and  the  House  of 
Lords. 

Had  you  a  difficulty  in  doing  it  ? — Yes;  and 
it  took  up  a  considerable  time,  but  I  effected 
it  at  last. 

.  What  time  of  night  misht  it  be  ? — I  cannot 
speak  with  certainty,  I  think  it  must  be  past 
cicht  o'clock. 

Were  you  tliere  on  Tuesday? — ^I  was  at 
Charing-crpss  on  Tuesday. 

Did  you  see  the  mob  so  down  yi\\h  any 
marks  upon  them  on  Tueraay  ? — I  saw  a  vast 
many  people  go  up  in  a  body  with  colours 
flying  on  TueSlay. 

Had  thev  any  thing  in  their  hats? — Yes, 
blue  cockades. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Kenyon, 

Do  you  know  what  the  colours  were? — I 
did  not  take  notice. 

I  believe  they  were  not  properly  speaking 
colours,  but  rags  ? — I  cannot  say,  there  was 
something  thev  carried  in  their  hands,  strea- 
mers or  somethine  of  that  sort,  but  I  cannot 
say  particularly  what  they.  were. 

Sampton  Rainfinih  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Beareroft. 

Were  you  in  Palace-yard  on  thedd  of  June 
last  ? — ^I  was  at  the  Kme's-arms  tavern  and 
saw  all  the  .procession  go  oy. 

What  time  of  day  were  you  there  ? — ^At 
twelve  o'clock.  At  about  one,  a  party  came 
over  Westminster-bridge  ^th  blue  cockades 
in  their  hats. 

What  number  might  there  be  ? — ^May  be 
SOO  or  thereabouts,  they  came  across  the 
bridge  and  marched  directly  down  George- 
atreet  and  went  into  the  ParL 

Did  they  say  any  thing ;  was  there  any  cry 
amongst  them  ? — ^No;  they  were  very  peace- 
able ;  at  about  two  the  whole  cavalcade  came 
with  flags,  I  do  not  know  whether  there  were 
not  bagpipes  they  went  very  orderly.  A  gen- 
tleman was  with  me,  I  said  we  will  go  to  the 
lobby  of  the  House  of  Commcns  and  see  what 
tliey  are  doing  there. 

Which  way  did  the  second  party  come  ? — 
From  Charing-cross. 

Which  way  did  Uiey  march  ?— Towards  the 
House  of  Commons. 

Did  you  observe  any  ribbands  in  their  hats  ? 
—Almost  cveiy  one  that  walked  iu  the  pro 


cession  had  a  blue  ribband.  My  fiiend  and  I 
went  to  the  lobby  of  the  House  of  Commons ; 
it  was  exceedingly  full;  the  door  of  the  House 
was  open ;  the  Speaker  was  not  in  the  chair. 
Lord  George  haa  his  cockade  in  his  hat;  he 
was  standing  in  the  door-way. 

What  sort  of  people  were  got  there? — The 
lower  sort  of  people;  some  were  decently 
dressed. 

Were  they  the  same  sort  of  people  you  saw 
pass? — ^Y«s. 

How  long  did  you  stay  there  ? — ^I  stayed 
about  ten  minutes ;  colonel  Miles  was  there  ; 
he  was  ordering  them  to  make  a  lane,  and  he 
was  directing  them  to  say  as  the  members 
came  past, '  fiepeal  the  Bill !  Repeal  the  Bill  I' 
Then  I  went  to  see  what  was  doing  at  the 
House  of  liOrds;  I  saw  a  noble  lord  not  vei^ 
well  treated.  At  about  eleven  o'clock  in  the 
evening  a  messenger  brouzht  word  to  the 
company  where  I  was  spending  the  evenins^ 
that  the  mob  were  buromg  down  the  Saru* 
nian  ambassador's  chapel  in  Lincoln's-inn- 
fields.  I  proposed  for  us  to  eo  there.  I  went. 
I  made  my  way  into  the  cnapel ;  it  was  not 
then  on  fire ;  they  had  torn  down  the  organ 
and  had  made  fires  in  the  street;  some  were 
throwing  the  inside  of  the  chapel  out,  and 
other  people  threw  it  into  the  fire ;  there  were 
not  above  five  or  six  people  In  the  chapel ;  I 
immediately  seized  a  young  fellow  who  vras 
in  the  chapel. 

Mr.  Ken^im.  I  must  submit  to  the  Court, 
whether  tms  is  evidence  to  affect  lord  George 
Gordon;  these  people  were  no  wkys  con- 
nected with  him  ?  % 

Court,  No  doubt  it  is  evidence ;  they  ars 
to  shew  that  tliese  people  were  ille^dly  as- 
sembled, and  committing  acts  of  violence  U> 
the  intent  of  forcing  a  repeal.  You  have  not 
examined  yet  to  the  procession  coming  dowo^ 
and  the  ohstruction  given  to  the  members. 
The  witness  said,  but  he  was  stopped  short 
in  the  examination,  that  he  saw  one  of  the 
lords  ill-treated. — When  I  quitted  the  lobby, 
I  went  to  see  what  was  doing  at  the  House  of 
Lords;  lord  Mansfield  came  in  hiscairia^* 
several  of  the  bishops  came,  and  were  all  m* 
suited.  I  said  to  my  friend,  here  will  be  an 
open  insurrection  in  my  opinion  before  this 
business  is  done. 

Did  you  observe  any  thing  more,  at  either 
of  the  two  Houses  of  Parliament,  till  you  went 
to  lincoln's-inn-fields  ? — ^Nothin^  more,  for  I 
stayed  biit  a  little  while ;  I  went  to  the  Sar- 
dinian ambassador's  chapel  at  about  half  ahec 
eleven  o'clock;  I  seized  one  by  the  collar  in 
the  chapel.  Mr.  Maberly,  wno  was  idong 
with  me,  joined  me:  we  brought  him  almost 
as  far  out  of  the  mob  as  Mr.  Carpue's,  a  silk 
dyer's  door;  some  of  the  mob  said  of  me 
**  dajnn  him,  that  is  the  late  high  oonstable| 
knock  him  on  the  head/'  then  they  rescuea 
the  man. 

What  number  of  people  do  you  suppose 
there  were  about  the  chapel  ?^Thei«  might 
be  2  or  :iOO. 


5351 


Jw  High  Treason. 


A.  D.  1781. 


[534 


What  was  the  ciy  amongst  them  ?— No  Po- 
pery! ¥ras  the  reigning  cry  amongst  them. 

Had  they  any  cockades  in  their  hats  ? — 
Most  of  them  nad  blue  cockades  in  their 
liats. 

What  became  of  the  man  you  got  out  of 
iSbe  mob? — He  was  rescued  from  me  by  the 
moby  and  I  was  in  great  danger  of  being 
knocked  on  the  head.  I  went  down  to  So- 
merset-house barracks  immediately  for  ^e 
Guards;  general  Winyard,  as  commanding 
officer,,  gave  me  his  assistance,  and  mustered 
100  men  with  their  bayonets.  I  desired  Mr. 
Maberly  to  get  some  of  sir  John  Fielding's 

r»ple  and  seize  some  of  the  ringleaders,  and 
would  come  up  with  the  Guards  and  assist. 
Upon  my  eoine  up  I  desired  every  person  in 
the  chapeKmignt  be  taken  into  custody.  The 
BOEitlemen  there  thought  I  vnderstood  some- 
thing of  rioting  business.  I  formed  tiie  sol- 
diers round  three  deep,  and  made  a  prison  in 
#ie  street. 

Were  the  mob  dispersed? — At  last  fhey 
were ;  with  the  assistance  of  the  soldiers  we 
took  up  IS ;  we  took  them  to  Uie  Savoy ;  for 
I  believe  the  watch-houses  would  not  have 
long  existed  if  we  had  put  them  there.  When 
I  came  back  they  had  got  some  more  in  cus- 
tody;  the  Russian  officer  was  one ;  he  was  in 
the  ambassador's  house.  More  soldiers  being 
brou^t  up  the  mob  dispersed.  The  next 
morning,  which  was  Saturoay,  they  were  exar 
nunedfat  sir  John  Fielding's  office;  one  was 
disdiai]ged ;  the  rest  were  remanded  back  to 
prison  till  Monday.  On  Monday  they  were 
examined  again,  ahd  five  of  them  were  fully 
committed  to  Newgate. 

Did  you  give  any  evidence  before  the  jus- 
tice ?— No,  but  I  attended  there. 

Was  it  attended  with  any  ill  consequences 
to  yott?->I  had  notice  that  they  intended  to 
destroy  my  house.  I  went  out  of  it ;  fny  pro- 
perty was  taken  out  into  the  street  and  burnt, 
and  the  inside  of  mv  house  was  destroyed. 

Court.  You  said  some  lords  and  bishops 
were  insulted  as  they  went  down  to  the  House 
of  Lords ;  in  what  manner  were  they  insulted? 
-—They  were  hissed,  and  I  saw  the  mob  shov- 
mg  them  about. 

Charles  Jealout  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Homorth. 

Were  you  on  the  2d  of  June  in  Palace- 
jard? — ^I  was. 

Give  an  account  of  what  you  observed 
there;  the  number  of  persons;  and  in  what 
manner  they  assembled  themselves.^— I  saw 
a  great  number  of  people  there;  I  had  not 
been  there  long  before  I  saw  a  carriage  stop- 
ped ;  I  was  uiformed  it  was  the  bishop  of  Lin- 
coln's ;  the  wheeb  of  that  carriage  were  taken 
o£^  and  I  saw  a  gentleman  duIIm  out,  which 
Ibej  told  me  was  the  bisnop  of  Lincoln  ;* 
they  pulled  off  his  wig  and  struck  hun  in  the 
Ace  with  it 


^  ll«il«w,  brolktr  to  Hi*  Lord  Ohaiifl«Uor. 


Were  his  horses  going  towards  the  House 
of  Lords? — Yes. 

What  was  the  cry  at  that  time  ?— No  Po- 
pery. 

Was  any  other  cry  made  use  of? — ^I  dont 
recollect. 

In  what  manner  did  the  bishop  of  Lincoln 
escape  horn  them? — ^He  got  into  a  house, 
but  whose  house  I  do  not  know.  I  saw  no 
more  of  them. 

What  number  of  persons  got  about  his  car- 
riage do  you  think,  and  were  assembled  in 
Paiace-yuti  at  that  time? — A  great  number. 

Had  they  any  thine  in  their  hats  .^ — ^Those 
that  I  saw  pull  off  Sie  bishop's  wig  had  no 
cockades  at  all. 

Were  there  many  persons  there  who  had?  . 
— Yes,  a  great  many. 

Pairiek  Macmanut  sworn. 
Examined*  by  Mr.  HowortL 

You  were  I  believe  in  Palace-yard  on  the 
8d  of  June? — I  was  stationed  at  Guildhall,  in 
King-street. 

Did  you  observe  any  number  of  people  as- 
semble themselves  about  Palace-yard  and  the 
avenues  leading  to  the  House  of  Commons, 
if  you  did,  «ve  an  account  in  what  manner 
Uiey  came  there,  and  what  their  conduct  was  ? 
— 1  was  sent  from  Bow-street  to  Guildhall ;  I 
heard  a  noise ;  a  ^ntleman  ran  in  ther&  and 
a  number  of  people  afier  him,  they  cried  out» 
No  Popery !  and  Repeal  the  Act !  Mr.  Smith, 
the  house-keeper,  and  I,  attempted  to  shut 
the  door,  but  could  not  do  it,  tney  forced  it 
open.  Mr.  Smith  went  down  stairs  and 
brought  up  some  broomsticks  in  his  hand^ 
and  said  we  would  keen  them  out. 

Did  you  learn  who  tnis  gentleman  was  who 
ran  through?-— I  heard  them  say  it  waa 
Mr.  Welbore  Ellis,  but  I  did  not  km>w  him. 

Did  you  observe  his  oarriage  ? — ^I  did  not 
see  his  carriage,  I  was  in  the  house. 

What  did  the  people  proceed  to  do  ?— They 
searched  all  the  place  and  could  not  find  him  ; 
they  broke  the  t)ack  door  which  goes  out  of 
tiie  hall  into  the  passage,  which  they  said  he 
went  through,  but  they  could  not  nnd  him ; 
some  of  the  windows  m  front  of  the  house 
were  broke. 

David  jMt/^  sworn. 
Piiamined  by  Mr.  Norton. 

You  are  a  constable  ? — Yes. 

Were  you  in  Warwick-street  on  the  «d  of 
June  ?•— Yes ;  I  went  from  the  House  of  Com- 
mons there  at  pastil  o'clock:  I  had  been 
home  to  my  own  house,  and  understood  there 
was  a  m<^  at  Warwick-street  chapel;  I  went 
to  count  Haslang's  house;  .the  chapei  was 
broke  open  before  I  got  there. 

Were  you  at  sir  John  Fielding^s  on  the 
Monday  following?— I  was ;  I  took  a  man  up 
for  robbing  count  Hadang's  chapel,  by  order 
of  justice  Hyde.  I  took  him  to  St.  James'a 
watch-house  and  from  thente  to  Bow-street; 


I  attended  the  examination  of  this  man;  my 


53B] 


SI  GEORGE  in.      ProceeeUn^f  agamit  Lard  George  Gerion^      [5M 


name  was  in  the  papers  on  Tuesday  the  6th, 
and  my  house  was  burnt  down  between  Tues- 
day the  6th  and  three  o'clock  on  Wednesday 
the  7  th. 

Mr.  Thonutt  Gates  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Attorney  General. 

You  are  the  city  marshal  ? — I  am. 

Do  you  recollect  any  disturbances  in  the 
tity  of  London  on  Sunday  the  4th  of  June  ? — 
X  recollect  a  disturbance  on  both  Sunday  and 
Monday  the  4th  and  5th  of  June.  On  the 
4th  it  was  in  Whites-alley,  Moorfields,  it  was 
at  a  Roman  Catholic  chapel.  ^ 

Were  Uiere  any  houses  destroyed  ?— Yes, 
three  houses  were  destroyed  there. 

Were  they  the  houses  of  Roman  Catho- 
lics ? — ^I  believe  they  were ;  th^  were  reputed 
so. 

What  was  the  cry?— No  Popery ! 

What  was  done  upon  the  Monday? 

Mr.  Kenyan,   I  shall  not  permit  improper 

nuestions  to  be  a^ked  without '  objecting  to 

wem;  this  is  not  connected  with  the  business 

'  of  Friday,  it  is  a  different  overt  act ;  it  is  in  a 

different  county. 

Attorney  General  After  proving  an  overt 
act  in  one  county  I  may  give  evidence  of  one 
in  another. 

Mr.  Kenyan,  I  object  to  it,  because  it  is 
irregular  i  not  for  fear  ef  the  consequences  to 


had  not  completely  finished  the  business  they 
were  about,  they  assembled  lUEain  to  pu)l  up 
the  floors  and  demolish  the  wuls. 

What  was  done  on  the  Tuesday? — ^They 
had  fired  the  gaol  of  Newgate,  the  Fleet,  Mr* 
Lanedale's,  and  several  other  houses. 

Were  they  the  houses  of  reputed  Roman 
Catholics  ? — They  were. 

Thev  set  fire  to  the  gaols?— Yes,  and  de- 
livered all  the  prisoners. 

What  was  done  the  next  day  ? — They  met 
a  repulse  the  next  day. 

What  was  the  crv,  at  all  these  times,  when 
they  pulled  down  tncse  houses? — No  Popery. 

Court,  You  said  the  cry  was  No  Popery, 
do  you  mean  to  confine  that  to  ope  day,  or 
was  it  eveiT  day? — A  That  cry  continued 
every  day  till  the  spldiers  fired  atuem. 

William  Hyde,  esq.  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Howorth, 

You  are  a  justice  of  the  peace  for  thif 
county  i — ^Yes. 

Were  you  on  the  9d  of  June  observing  th0 
conduct  of  the  people  at  the  foreign  ministers' 
chapels  ? — Yes ;  I  was  in  Warwick-street  on 
Friday  at  about  13  o'clock  at  nisht;  when  I 
came  down  to  Warwick-street  f  saw  a  vast 
number  of  people  with  cockades  in  their  hats; 
1  went  with  a  party  of  soldiers  to  secure  as 
many  of  the  rioters  as  I  possibly  could :  as 
,  soon  as  I  came  to  the  front  of  the  house  1 1 


my  client.  ,  ,  .  .  *u-         *  u  i      •      * 

Attorney  General.    I  submit  to  the  court,  |  a^mwi  hnnaug  something  out  belongmg  ta 
at  after  the .  incitement  w«  have  proved,  \  ^e  chapd.    1  struck  at  bun,  1  knocked  him 


that 


wlieVherthe  |[)usiness  was  all  done  on  Satur- 
day night,  or  cbntinufd  for  several  days,  it  is 
evidence  to  be  re<;eived — ^it  was  the  same  cry. 
Court.  No  doubt  you  are  at  liberty  to  give 
in  evidence  every  thing  which  shews  that  the    ^  .  .  .  .  ^t   -r,  ■ 

mob,  so  assembled,  on  the  2d  of  June,  had  a    I>own  with  it    No  Popery ! 
gcnend  intent,  by  terror  and  acts  of  viol^cc.        What  force  had  you  to  disperse  this  mob  ?— 
to  force  a  repeal  of  the  law.'  That  does  not    About  20  soldiers. 


down,  and  sent  him  to  the  watch-house. 

Was  the  chapel  destrayed  ?— All  the  insids 
of  it  was. 

Was  any  ciy  made  use  of  by  the  people  you 
saw  assembled  there  with  cockaqesr — ie». 


affect  the  prisoner  till  you  make  him  acces- 
sary and  privy  to  it;  but  every  circumstance 
that  tends  to  shew  ib^ir  intent  you  jn^y  give 
in  evidence.  If  you  give  evidence  of  an  overt 
act  in  the  coimty  where  it  is  laid,  you  may  to 
be  sure  give  evidence  of  an  overt  act  in  ano- 
ther county,*  and  you  have  done  it  already, 
for  you  began  with  fin  overt  act  in  the  county 
of  Suny.  We  cannot  adjourn  in  this  case  at 
all.f  1  wonder  you  don't  rather  confine  your 
examination  to  acts  of  violence  at  the  veiy 
time,  on  the  9d  of  June,  upon  the  members  of 
both  Houses  of  Parliament 

Had  the  people  any  cockades? — ^They  had 
blue  cockades. 

What  was  done  upon  the  Monday  ? — ^They 

*  Sm  East* ■  PIflu  of  the  Crown,  chap.  2, 8.  dl,  65 ; 
and  in  tliu  Collection  the  Cwei  of  air  Henry  Vane, 
vol.  6.  Sir  Riohanl  Gmhine,  lord  Proiton,  vol.  12. 
Sir  Willian  Parkyai,  vol.  IS.  Dammaree,  vol. 
16.  Ptorahase,  vol.  15.  M^Uii,  vol.  15.  Deacon, 
vol.  18. 

t  As  to  thU,  see  tbe  Caaoa  of  Hardy  and  Home 
'^«  in  179^  and  of  Stoa^.ia  1796. 

t 


Do  you  remember,  on  th\B  Sunday  evening 
fbllowmg,  being  called  upon  to  act  any  where 
as  a  m^gbtrate  r— I  was  called  upon,  on  tbe 
Sunday  evening,  to  go  to  Lincolp's-inn-fields, 
there  were  a  number  of  people  demolishing 
the  remainder  of  that  chapel. 

What  number  of  persons  did  you  observe 
there  ? — Son^e  hundr^s  or  thousands. 

Did  you  4]^serve  whether  they  had  any 
cockades  ^^I  cannot  take  upon  me  to  say. 

What  did  ypu  observe  on  the  Monday  ?•— I 
was  at  Warwick-Street  chapel  on  the  Monday; 
information  came  to  me.  tnat  they  wer^  going 
to  destroy  sir  George  Savile's  house;  I  set 
out ;  there  were  a  vast  number  of  people  with 
cockades  in  their  hats,  the  horse  guards  io^ 
mediatelv  came  into  the  square,  I  went  at  the 
head  of  tnem,  and  with  a  great  deal  to  do  fie 
drove  the  people  away. 

Was  any  general  ciy  made  use  of  tor  the 
people  at  sir  George  Savile's?-— Yes,  Down 
with  it!  No  Popery! 

t>o  you  recollect  on  the  Tuesdaj,  the  6th  of 
June,  being  called  upon  any  when?— On 
Tuesday  the  6th  of  Jifoel  m«l  ipme  of  my 


♦ST] 


Jot  ^igh  7VM»0i* 


farolheriDft^stratesatWestiiuiisUr;  m^^vli^ 
tion  was  fixed  at  Charins-cross.  While  I 
vas  there  I  was  informea  a  vast  number  of 
people  had  come  with  flags,  and  stoi^d  all 
the  avenues  to  both  Houses  of  Parliament.  I 
^Hmd  several  coaches  were  stopped  in  Parlia* 
ment-street,  and  several  in  Palace-yard ;  some . 
they  wrote  upon  No  Popeiy,  others  tbey 
would  J9ot  let  go  along  at  any  rate.  I  imme* 
diately  set  off  to  acquaint  'some  more  magis* 
tratesy  who  were  in  the  neighbourhood ;  I 
then  went  to  call  out  the  norse  and  foot 
guards ;  when  we  came  into  Palace*yard  we 
saw  8eva:al  coaches  stopped  by  the  mob ;  we 
drove  the  mob  away,  and  the  coaches  went 
peaceably  along. 

Do  you  know  to  whom  those  coaches  be- 
longed ? — ^No ;  while  we  were  in  Palace-yard 
clearing  the  way,  information  was  brought 
that  many  coaches  were  stopned  in  coming  to 
the  House ;  I  set  out  to  ciear  Parliament- 
street  several  times ;  atlast  a  gentleman  came 
and  said  "  Lord  Sandwich  was  killed  or  lay 
dying  in  Parliamentrstreet ;  tliat  he  was  mui^ 
derea  or  near  it,  or  would  be  before  we  could 
arrive."  We  set  off  directly ;  at  the  end  of 
Parliament-street  we  found  lord  Sandwich's 
carriage  broke,  and  his  lordship  was  cut  upon 
the  len  side  of  his  head. 

Court.  Was  that  done  by  part  of  this  mul- 
titude ?-^J.  By  part  of  the  mob. 

In  what  state  did  )rou  find  him  ? — The  mob 
was  about  his  lordship;  he  was  cut  on  the 
head,  and  the  gltuses  of  the  chariot  were 
broke ;  I  asked  his  lordship  which  way  he 
would  please  to  go,  he  said  home;  I  conducted 
him  home. 

What  force  had  you  with  you  at  that  time  ? 
—I  suppose  a  dozen  or  fourteen  of  the  li^t- 
horse;  after  conducting  his  lordship  home  we 
came  back  i^ain  to  Parliament-street,  where 
the  coaches  as  usual  were  stopped ;  we  cleared 
the  street  as  well  as  we  could,  and  got  into 
Palace-yard  ags^. 

Had  those  persons  about  lord  Sandwich's 
coach  any  cockades  in  their  hata  ?— *They  had 
blue  cockades  in  their  hats. 

Was  there  any  cry  made  use  of  by  these 
people? — ^In  Parliament-street  the  cry  was 
Ko  Popery  1 

Did  you  observe  that  this  multitude,  who 
assembled  on  Tuesday,  had  any  thing  ia  their 
bands?-  At  first  they  had  no  weapons ;  then 
were  flags  flying,  they  were  shouting  and 
making  a  noise,  ^id  crying  No  Poperyl  In 
the  beginning  of  the  afternoon,  or  aoout  three 
or  four  o'elouE,  they  got  some  weapons. 

What  weapons?— New  faggot  sticks,  oak 
sticks,  the  bark  of  which  hadi^n  peeled  off; 
this  was  on  Tuesday  the  6th  of  Jime. 

What  number  of  these'  people  were  there 
thus  aasembled?--!  suppose  some  thousands. 

In  conseoueoce  of  tiua  conduct  of  yova'% 
was  any  uung  done  to  your  hiousef — My 
hcKise  in  St  Martin's-street  was  ladled  down 
«n  Tucflday,  and  on  Wednesday  m^  house  at 
Islington  was  pulled  dopuL 


A.  D.  1781. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Keny&n^ 


[688 


You  wer^  not  oresent  when  lord  Sandwkh 
was  stopped,  and  nis  carriage  broken  ?— <:I  was 
not. 

You  knew  nothing  of  the  parties  who  did 
that?— No. 

Attorney  General.  You  found  lord  Sand* 
wich  in  the  hands  of  the  mob  ? — A.  I  did ;  one 
num,  a  resolute  impudent  fellow,  had  a  stick 
with  a  large  head,  with  a  leather  apron  of 
something  twisted  round  the  top  of  it,  he  said 
^'  if  he  did  not  murder  him  tnen,  he  would 
before  he  had  done  with  him.'^ 

Mr.  Kenyan,  Who  that  man  was  you  do 
not  know  ? — A.  I  do  not,  my  attention  was  t* 
his  lordship. 

Henry  Lord  PorcKuter  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Attorney  General. 

Was  your  lordship  at  the  House  of  Com- 
mons on  the  9d  of  June  last? — I  was. 

Was  there  a  riot  at  the  House  ?— There 
was. 

Did  you  observe  any  thing  in  the  hats  ^ 
the  rioters  ? — ^Yes,  blue  cockades. 

Did  your  lordship  observe,  whether  the  pri* 
soner  nsd  or  not  a  olue  cockade  that  day  ? — I 
did  not  see  the  prisoner  that  day  but  in  the 
House  of  Commons.  I  shall  ^ish,  if  i  may 
be  nermitted,  to  ask  of  the  Court  ■    ■ 

Court.  It  is  not  worth  while  to  lose  a  minute 
about  it,  for  several  of  the  witnesses  have  said 
th^  saw  him  with  a  blue  cockade. 

One  of  the  Jury.  Had  lord  George  Gordon 
a  blue  cockade  on  Tuesday  the  6th? — A.  I 
only  saw  the  prisoner  in  the  House. 

Court.  No  matter  where ;  did  you  see  him 
with  a  blue^  cockade  on  the  Tuesday  ?-—ul.  I 
certainly  did  in  the  House. 

John  Lucy  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Norton. 

Were  you  in  Palace-yard  on  Tuesday  the 
6th  of  June  ? — ^I  was. 

At  what  time? — Between  four  and  five 
o'clodc  in  the  afternoon. 

What  did  you  observe  there  ?— A  very  large 
mob. 

Had  they  anything  in  their  hats? — Some 
had  bhie  cockades,  mit  1  had  not  one  in  my 
hat 

Was  there  any  ^aeral  cry  amongst  them  ? 
— ^The  cry  of  No  Popeiv ! 

Did  you  see  them  nave  any  flag? — ^I  saw 
three  flags. 

Do  you  know  any  of  the  persons  who  ca^ 
ried  those  flags  ? — ^Yes,  one  James  Jackson. 
As  soon  as  justice  Hyde  had  ordered  the 
horse  lo  ride  amongst  the  mob  to  disperse 
them  in  Palace-yard,  then  Jackson  hoisted 
the  flag,  and  said  ^'  to  Hyde's  house  a-hoy/' 
for  them  to  destroy  it  because  Mr.  Hvde  nad 
order^  the  horse  to  ride  amonest  the  TQok» 
Jackson  carried  a  black  and  red  flag,  he  pi»- 
needed  in  front  of  the  mob,  and  was  followed 
by  some  hundreds  of  people  to  justice  Hyde's 


8S9] 


21  GEdRGE  IIL      Proceedings  against  Lard  George  Gordon^      [540 


bouse.  I  went  to  Mr.  Hyde's  house  and  saw 
Jamas  Jackson  there  with  the  same  flag,  and 
I  saw  the  goods  thrown  out  of  Mr.  nyde's 
house. 

How  long  did  the  mob  stay  there  ? — ^Near 
an  hour  I  believe. 

What  was  done  afterwards? — ^Afler  the 
eoods  were  thrown  into  the  street  and  burnt. 
James  Jackson  waved  his  flag  and  walked 
backwards  and  forwards  in  St  Martin's-streeV 
and  then  cried  out  '<  arhoy  for  Newgate  f  the 
mob  followed  him  in  great  numbers  to  New- 
gate to  let  out  the  prisoners,  I  saw  him  af- 
terwards fX  If  ewgate,  and  I  saw  him  indde 
Mr.  Akerman's  parlour  at  the  window,  with 
the  flag  in  his  hand.* 

Was  Newgate  bumt?-'It  was.  I  was  one 
of  the  Protestant  Association ;  I  knew  this 
James  Jackson  to  be  a  veiy  desperate  young 
fellow. 

Barnard  Turner,  esq.  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Howarth, 

Mr.  Kenyon.  What  business  are  you  ? — A, 
A  sugar  refiner. 

Mr.  Howorth,  You  will  please  to  inform  the 
Court  of  the  disturbances  on  the  Wednesday 
night  which  fell  within  your  observation? — 
A,  On  Wednesday  evening;,  about  six  or  seven 
o'clock,  the  London  Military  Association^ 
which  I  had  the  honour  to  command,  march- 
ed to  Broad-street,  to  disperse  a  mob  which 
was  tiien  destroying  a  Mr.  Donavan's  house. 
We  came  in  sight  or  Mr.  Donavan's  house, 
and  saw  a  very  large  mob  were  taking  out  the 
furniture  firom  Mr.  Donavan's  house,  and 
burning  it  in  the  street  before  the  house ;  we 
halted  a  little  before  we  came  to  them,  and  I, 
as  commanding  officer  of  that  detachment, 
used  all  the  arguments  I  could  to  disperse 
them  without  force,  but  I  found  it  ineffectual, 
and  we  were  afterwards  obliged  to  fire ;  ai\er 
firing  for  four  or  five  minutes,  the  mob  dis- 
persed, and  some  prisoners  were  taken  in  Mr. 
bonavan's  house ;  afterwards  the  Association 
marched  down  to  St  Catherine's,  where  some 
of  the  mob  were  destroying  the  house  of  one 
Lebartv;  the  rest  of  Wednesday  evening  and 
Thursday  morning,  tlie  Association  were  em- 
ployed in  marching  after  the  mob,  wherever 
they  heard  they  were  assembled,  and  dispers- 
ing them  on  Thursday,  about  six  or  seven 
o'clock  in  the  morning,  the  Assochition  were 
dismbsed  for  that  time. 

Was  tliere  any  general  ciy  made  use  of  by 
the  persons  concerned  in  the  destruction  of 
these  houses?— The  general  cry  I  observed 
was,  "  No  Popery,  no  Popery !  Down  with 
the  Papists,''  and  expessions  of  that  kind. 

Mention  to  the  lury  the  several  places 
which  you  observea  destroyed  on  the  Wed* 
— ^-^— ~— ^— ^-^^-^-— — — -■ — -— I   I 

*  Jtmes  Jaclcwm  was  tried  at  the  Old-Bttley  in 
J«ie  te«ioii»  for  beiog  conomied  in  tlw  dfl«olitioii 
of  Mr.  Akermui't  houe,  of  wkidi  he  was  ooarietad, 
and  waa  exeented.  See  the  8eaaiona-|Mip«r  of  the 
fVMadiaff  flMiyoralty»  No.  ^16,  page  615b 


nesday  night  and  Thursday  morning?— We 
^saw  tne  house  of  Mr.  Mulliner  in  the  Poultry 
attacked,  but  the  guards  had  dispersed  that 
mob  before  the  Association  assembled.  We 
saw  beades,  the  fire  at  Mr.  Donavan's,  the 
destruction  of  Lebarty's  house,  and  several 
fires  at  a  distance ;  that  of  Mr.  Langdale's^ 
the  distiller,  at  Holbom-bridge,  the  toll- 
houses^ and  the  King's-bench  prison.  All 
those  fires  we  saw  fi-om  different  parts  of  the 
town  when  we  were  upon  duty. 

Did  ^ou  observe  whether  the  mob  had  any 
thing  m  their  hands?— Some  had  iron  bars, 
some  had  spokes  of  wheels,  and  some  few 
had  cutlasses.  There  were  one  or  two  old 
pieces  of -fire-arms  among  the  mob,  at  Mr. 
Donavan's  house;  but  they  were  chiefly 
armed  with  bludgeons,  spokes  of  wheels,  and 
iron  bars. 

Did  you  observe  whether  these  persons  had 
any  cockades  in  their  hats  ?— A  mat  num- 
ber of  blue  cockades  were  worn  sll  Wednes- 
day evening. 

Did  you  see  in  Cheapside,  either  that  night 
or*next  morning,  a  conuderable  number  of 
people  ?— The  Association  assembled  at  the 
Paul's-heady  about  six  in  the  evening.  In 
marchinf  down  finom  thence  to  the  Mansion-  ^ 
house,  the  part  of  Cheapside  and  the  Poultry 
we  marchea  through,  were  so  fiill  of  the  mob, 
that  it  was  with  duBcul^  we  got  through. 

Had  those  persons  any  cockades  in  their 
hats? — ^Many  of  them  had,  but  that  assembly 
were  not  armed  in  the  manner  those  persona 
assembled  at  Mr.  Donavan's  house  were. 

Was  any  cry  then  among  them  ?<»The  ge- 
neral cry  was^  '*  No  Popery !  Down  with  the 
Papisur 

Richard  Pond  sworn. 
Exanuned  by  Mn  Attorn^  General. 

Look  at  that  paper  [handing  it  to  the 
witness]  is  the  name  to  that,  the  signature  of 
the  prisoner  at  the  bar,  lord  Greorge  GordcHi  ? 
— ^I  saw  a  person  sign  it,  who  I  was  told  was 
his  lordship. 

Have  you  seen  the  same  person  since  ? — ^I 
do  not  recollect  tiiat  I  have. 

Look  round  the  court  and  see  if  the  person 
is  present  who  sisned  it?— That  is  the  person 
[pointing  to  lord  George  Gordon.] 

Why  aid  you  apply  to  him  i-i  thought  it 
might  have  the  eroct  to  obtain  a  security  to 
my  house. 

Did  it  obtain  that  security  to  your  house  f 
^-That  I  cannot  say. 

Did  vou  produce  it  on  any  occauon?— I 
did  to  the  mob. 

Was  your  house  pulled  down  ?— It  was  not. 

What  was  the  sround  of  your  application 
about  your  house  ?•— I  was  infbrmea  oy  some 
nei^bours,  that  m]f  house  was  upon  the  list 
amonsst  others  wmch  were  intended  to  b« 
pulleadown. 

Were  vou  any  way  connected  with  the  Ro- 
man CathoUes?— llie  boost  was  inhabitoi 
by  one  of  that  religioii. 


541] 


for  High  Treason, 


A.  D.  1781. 


[642 


Infaabitedy  or  a  lodger*? — ^It  is  a  house  I 
have  upon  lease ;  the  person  who  inhabits  it 
has  a  lease  under  me,  he  is  my  under  tenant. 

[The  paper  read ;  it  was  literally  as  fol- 
lows :] 

**  All  true  friends  to  Protestants  I  hope  will 
particular  and  do  no  injury  to  the  property 
of  any  true  Protestant,  as  I  am  well  assured 
the  propricstor  of  this  bouse  is  a  staunch  and 
worthy  friend  to  the  cause.      G.  Gordon/' 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Kenyan, 

Where  ¥ras  lord  George  Gordon  when  that 
paper  was  signed  by  him  ? — In  a  c^ach  near 
the  place. 

Was  there  not  one  of  the  magistrates  in 
the  coach  with  him,  Mr.  Pugh,  the  sheriff? — 
Yes,  Mr.  Pug;h  I  can  swear  to. 

Did  you  bring  that  jpaper  ready  written  and 
produce  it  to  his  lordsnip  ? — ^I  did. 

And  you  told  him  it^  would  be  of  use  to 
jou  if  he  would  sign  it  ? — ^I  did. 

On  what  day  of  the  week  was  it? — 1  be- 
Heve  on  Wednesday. 

He  was  in  the  coach  with  sheriff  Pugh ; 
you  took  the  paper  to  him  ready  written; 
you  told  him  you  thought  it  would  be  of  use 
to  you,  if  he  would  sign  it,  and  in  compliance 
with  your  request  he  signed  it  ? — Yes,  ne  did. 

Do  you  know  whether  he  read  it  or  not? — 
That  I  cannot  positively  say. 

How  came  that  piece  of  paper  out  of  your 
hands  ? — Upon  the  appUcation  of  Mr.  White 
and  Mr.  Alderman  Wukes. 

John  Dingwall  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Bearcrqft, 

Do  you  know  lord  George  Gordon? — ^Yes, 
I  do. 

Did  you  ever  see  him  write  ? — Never. 

Upon  your  oath  did  you  never  see  him 
write? — ^Never  to  my  knowledge;  I  never 
saw  him  subscribe  his  name  in  my  life,  nor  I 
jiever  received  a  letter  from  him. 
-  Will  you  take  upon  you  to  say  you  never 
saw  him  write  any  thing  ? — Not  to  my  know- 
ledge. 

Did  yott  ever  see  him  write  any  thing  but 
Ids  name  ? — To  my  knowledge  I  never  saw 
him  write. 

Do  you  mean  to  say  to  the  best  of  your  re- 
foDection  and  belief  you  never  saw  him  write  ? 
— To  the  best  of  my  recollection  and  belief  I 
never  saw  him  write. 

Nor  had  any  correspondence  with  him  ?•— 
Kone  that  I  know  of. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Enkine, 

Thcnigh  you  have  had  no  correspondence 
in  writing  with  lord  George  Gordon,  yet  you 
are  well  acquainted  with  him? — Yes,  but  I 
never  had  any  business  with  him. 

How  long  have  you  been  acquainted  with 
lord  George  Gordon  ? — From  his  birth. 

*  So  ia  Orif . 


Did  you  see  lord  George  Gordon  at  any 
time,  and  how  long  before  this  meeting  that 
took  place  in  St.  GeorgeVfields  ?— I  saw  him 
the  nigh\  before  the  meeting  in  May. 

Do  you  recollect  whether  lord  George  Gor- 
don, that  ni^ht  in  May,  said  any  thing  to  you 
upon  the  subject  of  this  business  ? 

Mr.  Att,  Gen.  What  lord  George  Gordon 
said,  may  be  evidence  against  himself^  but 
cannot  be  evidence  for  him.  * 

Court.  Unless  it  is  connected  with  the 
time  that  they  have  spoken  of  at  Coach- 
maker's-hall,  or  St.  George'srfields. 

Mr.  Erskine.  It  is  connected  with  that 
particular  time.  I  submit  to  your  lordship, 
that  I  have  a  right  to  put  this  question,  whe- 
ther or  no  he  saw  lord  George  Gordoi/  the 
night  before  the  39th  of  May,  and  whether 
lord  George  Gordon  said  any  thing  to  him 
upon  the  subject  of  that  meetmg. 

Court.  The  distinction  is  this.  If  you  call 
him  to  the  meeting  upon  the  SQth,  they  hav- 
ing  given  evidence  of  what  he  said  at  that 
meetmg,  you  may  shew  the  whole  connexion 
of  what  he  said  there  besides,  but  you  cannot 
go  into  evidence  relating  to  the  day  before. 

Mr.  Kenyon.  The  meeting  which  was  held 
in  St.  GeorgeVfields  on  the  2nd  of  June, 
either  was  or  was  not  legally  assembled ;  the 
motives  for  which  they  assembled,  if  lord 
George  Gordon  was  the  assembler  of  it,  will 
go  a  great  way  to  shew  whether  they  were 
legally  assembled  or  not.  If  assembled  for 
purposes  hostile  to  the  laws,  it  was  illegal ; 
out  if  lord  George  Gordon  conceived  it  con- 
stitutional to  go  up  with  it,  with  a  consider- 
able number  of  persons,  and  if  he  had  assign- 
ed the  reason  why  he  was  so  to  go  up,  that  it 
was  to  remove  the  imputation  that  he  was 
carbine  up  a  petition  with  forged  names  to 
it,  1  submit  to  your  lordship,  that  whatever 
the  motives  were,  it  constitutes  either  crimi- 
nality or  guilt,  or  absolves  him  from  the  guilt  ' 
with  which  he  is  charged;  therefore  I  hum- 
bly conceive,  that  if  lord  George  Gordon  can 
depQonstrate  to  the  satisfaction  of  your  lord-^ 
ship  and  the  Jury,  what'  the  motives  were 
which  induced  him  to  take  the  people  there,  ' 
it  will  go  a  great  way,  not  only  in  extenuation 
of  his  offence,  but  will  totally  to  extirpate  the 
crime. 

Court.  There  cannot  be  a  doubt  of  it — ^his 
motive  cannot  be  proved  by  his  own  private 
declaration. 

Mr.  Ertkine.  Your  lordship  was  pleased 
to  observe  to  me  that  I  was  going  to  a  time 
antecedent  to  the  time  put ;  your  lordship  will 
remember  Mr.  Hay.  the  first  witness  on  the 
part  of  the  crown,  has  spoken  to  the  expres- 
sions of  lord  George  Gordon,  as  early  as  the 
February  before ;  and  these  are  declarations 
subsequent  to  that,  and  it  seems  an  extraor- 
dinary thing  that  k  man  should  be  called  up 
to  condemn  lord  George  Gordon  for  words  he 
has  spoken,  and  that  another  man,  who  has 
heard  him  speak  words  subsequent  to  that 
period,  shall  not  be  permitted  tq  explain  that 


543]  21  GEORGE  III.       Proceedingi  against  Lord  George  Gordon^  ^  [544 


your  lordslup  said  it  was  a  time  antecedent--- 
I  conceive  it  was  not  antecedent,  because  evi- 
dence has  been  eiven  of  expressions  of  his 
lordship's  antecedent  to  that.  I  am  now 
speaking  of  the  29th  of  May,  and  Hay  speaks 
of  December,  January,  and  February. 

Court.  Not  of  any  particular  expressions  he 
made  use  of  previous  to  the  S9th  of  May. — It 
makes  no  difference  whether  it  is  precedent  or 
subsequent,  he  cannot  give  evidence  of  his 
motives  by  his  own  private  declarations. 

[Mr.  Metcalf  gave  into  court  Extracts  from 
the  Journals  ef  the  House  of  Commons,  of 
the  progress  through  the  House  of  the  act  of 
parliament  to  repeal  part  of  the  Act  of  the 
11th  and  12th  of  William  3.] 

M^r.  Attorney  General.   Call  general  Skene. 

Mr.  Kenyan.  My  lord,  I  understand  the 
witness  now  called,  is  to  be  examined  to  prove 
there  were  riots  in  Scotland ;  I  object  to  the 
receiving  such  testimony. 

Mr.  Attofney  General.  The  example  lord 
George  Gordon  held  out  to  them  is  the  very 
riot  in  Scotland. 

Mr.  Kenyan.  If  the  legislature  found  this 
was  contrary  to  the  sense  of  the  people  in 
Scotland,  they  did  wisely  perhaps  in  comply- 
ing with  the  wishes  of  the  neople.  It  is  the 
duty  of  governors,  in  general,  to  comply  with 
the  sense  of  the  governed .  A  ny  riot  that  may 
have*  happened  m  Scotland,  I  submit  to  your 
lordship,  cannot  be  proved ;  it  would  be  an 
eternal  disgrace  upon  government  if  it  should 
be  proved  that  tne  legislature  gave  wav  to 
riots  in  Scotland.  Your  lordship  will  recollect 
the  language  of  the  fitnesses :  lord  George 
Gordon  exhorted  the  people  to  be  temperate 
and  firm ;  that  the  people  in  Scotland  had  by 
such  means  prevailed  upon  the  legislature  not 
to  extend  the  laws  to  that  country. 

Mr.  Erskine.  I  submit  to  your  lordship, 
all  the  witnesses  that  have  spoken  upon* what 
lord  George  Gordon  said  with  respect  to  this 
business  an  Scotland,  have  said  ne  desired 
them  to  be  firm  and  temperate,  for  by  that 
means  their  brethren  in  Scotland  had  redress 
from  parliament,  but  it  cannot  be  mentioned 
in  this  court,  without  an  eternal  disgrace  to 
the  legislature,  that  that  redress  was  given  to 
them  because  of  those  riots,  which  are  sup- 
posed to  have  existed  in  Scotland,  which  riots 
nave  not  been  proved  to  exist,  and  which 
ought  not  to  be  proved  to  exist,  because  they 
have  no  relation  to  the  present  enquiry,  un- 
less the  sentlemen  on  the  other  side  can  shew 
that  lord   George  Gordon  had  desired  the 

g'  eople  here  to  bum  houses  as  the  mob  did  in 
cotland ;  therefore  I  conceive  it  is  impossible 
to  be  brousht  home  as  evidence  in  this  cause. 
Court.  The  counsel  for  the  crown  do  not 
mean  to  impute  the  demolition  of  the  mass- 
boiises  in  Scotland  to  lord  George  Gordon.  I 
understand  the  evidence  offered  is  with  a  view 
to  shew,  that  the  speech  which  is  attributed 
to  lord  George  Gordon  related  to  a  fact  which 
had  existence;  for  some  of  the  witnesses  have 


told  us  that  lord  George  CSordon  said  tiiQ 
Scotch  had  no  redress  till  tiiey  pulled  dowil 
the  mass-houses.  ^ 

Mr.  Erikine.  Who  pidleddown  the  mass- 
houses?  will  it  be  shewn  that  the  Protestant 
Association  pulled  down  these  mass-houses  f 
Lord  George  Gordon  addressing  himself  to  the 
Protestant  Association  in  England^  mentioned 
the  firmness  and  unanimity  of  his  brethrea 
of  the  Protestant  Association  in  Scotland. 
Will  any  witness  attempt  to  prove  that  the 
Protestant  Association  m  Scotland  wore  ever 
guilty  of  such  riots  ? 

Mr.  Solicitor  General.  The  question  is, 
whether  we  are  to  g^ve  evidence  of  the  de- 
struction of  these  mass-houses,  of  which  lord 
George  Grordon  has  spoken  in  express  terms  ( 
The  question  now  is  not,  as  to  tne  operatioa 
and  force  of  that  evidence.  The  prisoner's 
language  b,  that  in  Scotland  some  mat 
houses  were  destroyed ;  that  must  have 
meaning.  The  single  question  is,  whether 
are  not  at  liberty  to  prove  that  the  ma 
houses  were  destroyed  ? 

Court.  They  have  given  in  evidence,  by 
two  or  three  witnesses,  that  when  those  peo- 
ple were  assembled  together,  the  example  of 
the  Scotch  had  been  held  fortli,  and  it  is  deli- 
vered in  different  expressions  j  one  says  he 
told  Uiem,  '*  the  Scotch  by  their  firmness  and 
Steadiness  had  carried  their  poiiU,  and  he  had 
no  doubt  but  when  his  m^esly  hesurd  his  sub« 
jects  were  flocldng  from  miles  around  he 
would  send  to  his  ministers  to  repeal  the  act  f^ 
in  another  place,  he  says,  ^'  the  Scotch  caic 
ried  their  point  by  their  firmness,''  and  :nore 
particularly  the  evidence  of  Mr.  Bowen  is  ex- 
pressly this,  ^  there  was  an  atteiupt  to  intro- 
ouce  a  bill  for  Scotland— that  the  Scotch  had 
no  redress  till  they  pulled  down  the  mass- 
houses,''  and  there  are  two  or  three  other  al- 
lusions, to  understand  which  it  is  absolutelr 
necessary  to  know  what  the  fact  was ;  it  is 
not  imputed  to  any  particular  peison,  but  the 
fact  is,  that  the  Stcotch  pulled  down  the  mass^ 
houses,  and  there'  has  not  any  bill  been  brought 
into  parliament  including  them  in  it 

General  Skene  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Attorney  General. 

Were  you  at  Edinburgh  in  177^  ? — ^I  was. 

Was  there  any  insurrection  or  disturbance 
in  that  city  then  ?— There  was ;  there  was  a 
mob  there. 

What  did  the  mob  do  ?— They  pulled  down 
a  house  belonging  to  a  person  called  bishop 
Hay. 

Was  it  a  Roman  Catholic's? — Yes;  and 
they  burnt  what  they  (^led  the  chapel. 

Did  they  do  any  more  ?— Not  that  I  kno# 
of. 

Do  you  know  what  was  the  cry.  or  how 
they  were  appeased  ?•— They  wanted  to  pull 
down  Popery. 

Do  you  know  how  they  were  appeased?— I 
cannot  say;  I  oidi^ed  troops  firom  allqusi^ 


64Si 


for  High  Tretutiu 


A.  D.  1781; 


[546 


ten  to  march  into  town,  which  I  believe  Was 
the  cause  of  their  being  appeased. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Kenyan, 

You  did  not  see  this  house  or  the  chapel 
burnt  down,  did  you  ? — ^No,  I  did  not  see  that 
house  or  chapel  burnt 

Hugh  Scott  J  esq.  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Lne, 

Did  you  happen  to  be  in  Edinburgh  in 
1779  ?— I  was. 

Were  there  any  riots  or  disturbances  there, 
upon  any  account  ? — ^Xhere  were. 

When  ? — In  the  beginning  of  the  year 
1779, 1  believe,  but  I  do  not  remember  the 
exact  date. 

What  did  the  people  do  that  assembled  to- 
gether there  ? — ^I  cannot  say  I  saw  them  pro- 
ceed to  do  any  violence,  or  commit  any  out- 
rages, but  according  to  common  report  and  in- 
formation. 

You  must  not  mention  any  thing  you  don't 
yourself  know ;  did  you  see  what  was  done  ? 
— ^No ;  I  saw  no  act  of  the  mob  with  my  own 
•yes. 

Robert  Grierton  sworn. 

Examined  by  Mr*  Howorth, 

I  understand  you  are  a  servant  to  the  duke 
of  Buccleugh  ? — I  am. 

Were  you  at  Edinburgh  in  the  month  of 
February,  1779  ? — I  was. 

Was  there  any  riot  or  tumult  in  Edinburgh 
at  the  time  ? — There  was. 

Give  an  account  of  what  you  saw  the  rioters 
do? — 1  saw  them  set  fire  to  a* house  and 
bum  it. 

What  house  was  it? — ^A chapel. 

What  sort  of  a  chapel,  a  Protestant  or  a 
Roman  Catholic  ? — I  don't  know ;  I  believe  it 
was  a  Roman  Catholic  chapel. 

What  was  the  cry  or  call  of  the  mob  ? — I 
don*t  know ;  I  was  not  nigh  the  mob,  I  was 
two  hundred  yards  off. 

Was  it  a  great  mob  ? — ^There  were  a  great 
man^. 

Did  they  do  any  thing  besides  burning  that 
chapel ;  did  they  bum  a  house  ? — Not  Umt  I 
know  of. 

Do  you  know  Mr.  Hay's  house  ? — ^No. 

Was' it  what  they  call  bishop  Hay's  house  ? 
— ^I  believe  he  lived  in  that  house. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Kenyon. 

The  house  was  on  fire  when  you  first  saw 
it? — ^Yes;  it  was. 

Who  set  it  on  fire,  you  don't  know  ? — ^No. 

Nor  do  you  know  that  it  was  a  chapel,  only 
•omebody  told  you  so  ? — ^Yes. 

Mr.  Attorney  General,  Was  the  mob  there 
at  the  time  ? — A,  Yes,  it  was. 

William  M*Kenzie  sworn. 

Exaoiined  by  Mr.  Dnnning, 

Were  you  in  Scotland  in  the  beginning  of 
Ibe  year  1779  ?-^Yeg. 

VOL.  XXL 


Were  you  at  Edinburgh?— Yes. 
'  Did  you  see  any  mischief  done  there  to  any 
Roman  Catholics  ? — ^Yes. 

What  was  the  mischief,  and  by  whom  was 
it  done  ? — ^They  set  the  Papist  chapel  on  fire. 

Did  you  see  what  kind  of  people  it  was, 
by  whom  it  was  set  on  fire,  did  you  see  it  set 
on  fire  ? — ^No ;  I  saw  it  burning. 

Was  there  any  mob  about  it  at  the  time  ?— - 
Yes ;  there  was  a  mob. 

Did  you  hear  them  say  any  thing  ? — ^No. 

Did  you  hear  any  cry  among  them  ? — ^No. 

Mr.  Attorney  GenertU.  My  lord,  I  have 
evidence  to  prove  the  destraction  of  all  the 
gaols  about  tnis  town  and  the  number  of  pri- 
vate houses  that  were  demohshed,  but  I  he- 
lieve  I  need  not  trouble  the  court  with  evi- 
dence of  it,  it  is  so  notorious. 

Court.  Some  of  the  witnesses  have  spok6 
of  all  the  gaols  I  believe. 

Mr.  Attorney  General.  I  shall  call  no  mora 
witnesses. 


For  the  Prisoner. 

Mr.  Kenyon.  Gentieraen  of  the  Jury;  The 
counsel  for  the  prosecution  having  stopped 
in  this  stage  of  the  business,  giving  as  a 
reason  for  not  producii^  more  witnesses,  that 
they  are  afi^d  of  tiring  out  the  patience  of 
the  court  and  the  jury,  it  is  the  misfortune  of 
the  prisoner  to  make  his  defence  at  that  p^ 
riod  of  the  day,  when  the  attention  of  the 
court  and  the  jury  must  be,  in  some  measure, 
exhausted.  There  are  other  difficulties  which 
he  also  labours  under;  for,  upon  this  occa^ 
sion,  I,  who  am  assigned,  by  the  court,  to  be 
one  of  his  counsel,  confess  myself  to  be  a  pep- 
son  very  little  versed  in  the  criminal  courts ; 
I  never  yet  stood  as  a  counsel  for  a  person 
who  had  so  great  a  stake  put  in  hazara;  and 
therefore,  gentiemen,  in  addressing  you  for 
him,  I  stand  as  a  person  in  very  considerable 
agitation  of  mind  tor  the  consequences  which 
may  happen  through  my  defects. 

When  persons  are  accused  of  actions  of 
great  enormity,  one  is  apt  to  look  round  about 
one  to  see  what  the  motives  were  that  could 
induce  the  parties  so  to  act ;  the  prisoner  at 
the  bar  stands  before  you  a  member  of  one  of 
the  most  considerable  families  in  this  country. 
At  the  time  when  this  conduct  is  imputed  to 
him,  he  was  a  member  of  the  legislature ;  he 
stood  in  a  situation  which  he  was  not  likely 
to  better  by  throwing  the  coimtry  into  con- 
vulsions. A  person  that  stood  in  tiie  situa^ 
tion  he  stood  m,  could  not  make  his  prospect 
better  than  in  seeing  the  affiiirs  of  the  coun- 
try conducted  under  legal  government ;  and 
if  he  thought  any  inroads  had  been  made 
upon  those  laws  which  the  wisdom  of  our 
ancestors  had  enacted,  it  was  his  business  to 
bring  about  the  repeal  of  those  laws,  to  re- 
dress those  grievances,  by  proper  legal  means, 
and  not  by  causing  a  revolt  in  this  country. 
This  being  the  case,  and  as  his  conduct  may 
be  imput^  to  good  or  bad  motives,  it  seems 

2  N 


^7J 


21  GEORGE  III.      Proceedings  against  Lord  George  Gordon,      [548 


reasonable,  and  humanity  will  induce  you  to 
impute  it'  to  proper,  rather  than  improper 
motives,  the  noble  prisoner  being,  as  I  have 
iaid,  a  man  standing  in  a  situation  who  had 
every  thing  to  expect  so  long  as  law  prevail- 
ed ;  but  nothing  to  expect  when  anarchy  was 
substituted  in  the  place  of  law. 

The  crime  imouted  to  the  noble  prisoner  is, 
that  he  being  a  liege  sublect  of  the  king,  had 
levied  war  a^inst  the  king.  The  crime  is 
imputed  to  him  undep  an  act  of  parliament 
enacted  for  the  wisest  purpose,  that  crimes  of 
this  very  enormous  nature  should  not  depend 
upon  loose  construction;  but  that  men,  in 
their  journey  through  life,  might,  by  lookii^ 
upon  the  statute,  see  what  the  plan  of  their 
duty  was,  might  see  what  the  rocks  were 
upon  which  they  were  not  to  run ;  and  misht 
see,  in  the  plain  words  of  the  statute,  wnat 
they  were  to  do,  and  what  to  avoid.  The 
Attorney  General  has  told  you,  very  properly, 
that  the  crhne  which  he  meant  to.  impute  to 
him  wy  not  a  crime  against  the  person  of 
the  king,  but  that  it  was  a  constructive  treason. 
Gentlemen,  I  have  only  to  lament,  that 
there  is  such  a  phrase  m  the  law  as  con- 
structive treason.  At  the  time  when  the 
law  was  enacted,  I  verily  believe  the  legis- 
lature  had  it  not  in  their  contemplation,  that 
the  words  constructive  treason  would  find 
their  way  into  the  courts  at  Westminster; 
but  however,  so  it  seems,  the  law  is ;  for  so  it 
seems,  upon  some  certain  occasions,  judges 
have  decided. 

The  o£fence  (when  it  comes  to  be  more 
particularly  described)  which  is  imputed  to 
the  prisoner  is,  that  he  had  levied  war  by  col- 
lecting together  a  niunerous  assembly  to  ef- 
,  feet,  by  violence^  an  alteration  of  a  law,  and 
procure  a  redress  of  grievances;  and  in  order 
that  Mr.  Attorney  General  might  eet  your 
inclinations  to  run  before  the  eviaence  he 
^ve^  and  that  he  might  be  in  possession  of 
inat  which  ought  never  to  be  roused  upon 
these  occasions,  namely,  the  passions  of  those 
who  are  to  try  the  cause ;   he,  in  terms  of 

Sreat  aggravation,  c^unpaxed  with  the  evi- 
ence  that  has  been  given,  stated  to  you,  that 
the  whole  city  might  have  been  burnt ;  that 
there  was  great  reason  to  beUeve  this  had 
been  concerted  by  our  foreign  enemies ;  that 
they  mixed  in  this  business ;  and  that,  there- 
fore, the  Bank  was  to  be  attacked,  the  public 
credit  sapped,  and  every  thing  thrown  into 
confusion,  and  we  to  be  delivered  up,  bound 
neck  and  heels,  an  easy  prey  to  our  enemies 
abroad.  I  dare  say,  he  did  not  mean  to  do 
what  was  improper ;  but,  surely,  it  was  most 
improper.  In  businesses  of  this  kind  it  is  not 
the  duty  of  an  advocate,  in  stating  his  case 
to  a  jury^  to  enhance  the  crime  beyond  the 
de^ee  ot  guilt  it  will  fairly  bear  when  the 
evidence  is  produced  before  you :  and  if  any 
thing  has  been  said  beyond  the  fair  import  of 
the  evidence,  it  has  not  been  well  said,  by 
the  counsel  who  conducis  the  prosecution  for 
the  crown. 


Gentlemen^  the  other  part  of  his  speech 
was  confined  m  stating  to  you  the  evidence 
which  he  meant  to  give :  but,  gentlemen,  in 
stating  that  evidence,  I  wish  he  nad  not  used 
some  of  the  phrases  which  he  did  use.  I 
wish,  when  he  spoke  of  the  multitude  col- 
lected together,  he  had  not  called  them  aa 
army;  I  wish,  when  he  spoke  of  them  in 
other  parts  of  his  speech,  ne  hud  not  com- 

{)ared  them  to  armies,  talked  of  their  being 
ed  in  triumph^  and  supposed  they  had  gone 
arrayed  in  mihtary  form^  to  bring  about  this 
redress  of  grievances,  which  he  supposed  was, 
and  which  was  perhaps  to  a  certain  extdnt^ 
the  intent  of  their  meeting. 

Several  witnesses  have  been  called;  vou 
have  observed  the  manner  in  which  they 
havejgiven  their  evidence,  and  attended  to 
the  effect  of  it.  The  first  was  William  Hay  ; 
he  has  stated  to  you  the  several  meetings  at 
which  lord  George  Gordon  was :  and  whea 
he  came  to  correct  himself,  upon  the  cross- 
examination,  it  appeared  he  had  over-stated 
it;  for  he  was  forced  at  last  to  admit  that 
lord  George  never  >had|  to  his  knowledge^ 
been  in  Greenwood's  room.  How  he  came 
to  have  been  in  a  situation  to  give  evidence 
is  not  disclosed  to  ^ou.  He  appears  to  have 
been  at  all  the  meetings,  at  more  than  lord 
George  Gordon  was  at; — ^that  he  was  in  the 
lobby  of  the  House  of  Commons;  in  the 
chapel  at  Duke-street ;  at  the  burning  of  the 
Fleet ;  at  the  chapel  in  Moorfields;  and  that 
he  was  in  Great  Queen-street.  What  the 
motives  were,  which  led  him  there,  I  do  not 
know.  But  this  I  know ;  it  has  ascertained 
one  ^t,  and  a  pretty  important  fact  in  this 
case ;  that  at  every  and  all  of  these  placet 
there  were  persons  who  had  nothing  to  do 
with  lord  Geom  Gordon^  there  were  ofi5^ 
cious  persons  who  crowded  into  the  business ; 
increased,  if  they  did  not  make  the  crow<( 
which  was  at  many  of  these  places. 

He  tells  you,  that  the  people  who  got  to- 
gether in  St.  GeorgeVfields  were  "  arrayed,"  as 
he  calls  it,  in  their  best  clothes.  Now,  why 
the  word  ^  arrayed''  got  into  his  mouth,  I  do 
not  know;  except  he  had  been  told,  that  if 
people  came  there  arrayed  in  a  militarv  man* 
ner,  it  considerably  enKanced  their  guilt.  He 
told  you  also,  tha.t  the  people  marched  in 
''  columns  ;*'  you  will  observe  again  another 
military  word :  he  was  upon  liis  cross-exanii- 
nation  asked  whether  lord  George  Gordoi^ 
desired  they  should  march  in  columns  or  di- 
visions^ he  admitted  the  language  he  used 
was  divisions:  why  then  should  he  vaiy  from 
the  conversation  or  directions  of  the  Drisoner 
he  was  giving  evidence  against  f  If^it  was 
done  to  give  a  different  colour  to  the  tran^ 
action,  and  the  phrase  is  so  differenced  as  not 
to  give  the  colour  on  the  side  of  mercy,  which 
a  man  speaking  in  the  case  of  blood  ought  to 
give,  I  impute  it  as  misbehaviour  to  that  wit* 
ness.  He  tells  you,  that  at  one  of  the  meet- 
ings at  the  Crown  and  Rolls,  (and  he  is  the 
single  person  who  speaks  to  it)  lord  Geoqpi 


BnSfj 


Jbr  High  Treaion, 


A.  D.  1781. 


[SSO 


Gcidon  said,  **  that  by  the  king's  assenting  to 
the  Quebec  Billt  his  majesty,  or  his  counsel- 
lorsy  had  brought  him  to  that  pass  to  which 
king  James  4he  3nd  was  brought  after  his 
aboication."  Now,  could  a  man  of  sense 
Dossibly  use  these  words  ?  How  was  he  like 
long  James  the  3nd  after  his  abdication  ?  had 
his  majesty  abdicated  the  govenunent?  was 
not  he  m  possession  of  the  throne  ?  was  he 
not  in  possession  of  all  the  force  of  the  coun- 
try? How  was  it  possible  to  conceive  that 
the  noble  person  at  the  bar  then  could  use 
such  language  ?  When  witnesses  come  singly 
to  state  racts  which  never  existed,  it  is  impos- 
flible,  perhaps,  to  prove  that  those  words 
might  not  oass.  But  if  one  travels  into  the 
field  of  prooability,  and  if  you  see  the  whole 
of  their  evidence  is  improbable,  and  they 
aupporied  by  no  other  witnesses,  then  the 
great  improbability  on  the  one  side,  opposed 
to  the  unsupported  evidence  of  such  a  witness 
on  the  other,  is  sufficient  to  get  rid  of  the 
evidence  of  that  witness.  Was  it  not  pos- 
sible that  other  witnesses  might  be  called, 
supposing  this  witness  spoke  true,  to  confirm 
his  testimony  ? — he  do^s  not  state  the  trans- 
action he  speaics  of,  to  have  passed  in  a 
corner^  where  nobody  was  present,  but  in  a 
room  where  a  great  multitude  of  witnesses 
were  present ;  witnesses,  who  were  accessible 
by  the  persons  emj^loydl  by  the  crown,  and 
the  great  list  of  witnesses  which  have  been 
talked  of  by  the  Attorney  General,  to  the 
amount  of  170,  shews,  that  those  who  were 
concerned  in  this  prosecution  for  the  crown 
have  not  been  negligent  in  it,  but  have  got 
together  those  from  all  quarters  who  they 
thought  could  speak  to  the  business. 

W  nen  I  state  this  witness,  hesitating  and 
stammering  as  he  did  in  some  part  of  his  evi- 
dence, and  standing  unsupported  in  parts  in 
which  he  might  l^ve  been  supported  if  his 
testimony  was  true,  for  there  were  parts  of  his 
evidence  which  were  not  likely  to  slip  out  of 
the  memories  of  other  people.  I  have  a  right 
to  conclude  that  he  is  speaking  that  which  is 
not  the  truth  of  the  case,  why  did  he  make 
notes  upon  this  occasion?  He  said  he  always 
does,  vet  never  made  memorandums  but  once, 
and  that  20  years  ago,  in  one  place.  Who 
was  the  person  to  whom  he  made  a  commu- 
nication  of  this  f  To  one  person  only,  a  man 
whose  respectability  I  admit,  but  whose  in- 
clination must  be  known,  because  he  is  stated 
to  be  a  Roman  Catholic.  Gentlemen,  he  tells 
yoa«  that  he  went  home  from  St.  Geo]]geV 
fields ;  that  he  went  over  Blackfriars-bridge, 
and  went  to  his  house,  and  in  that  house  at 
first,  he  told  me,  he  staid  till  he  went  down  to 
the  lobby  in  the  evening : — However,  in  tlie 
former  part  of  his  evidence  he  had  mentioned 
a  &ct  which  passed  in  Fleet-street ;  it  was  ne- 
cessary for  him  indeed  to  reconcile  the  different 
parts  of  the  evidence,  to  bring  himself  out  of 
the  house  before  the  time  he  went  down  to 
the  lobby,  for  lie  admitted  the  crowd  came  by 
a  k>ng  time  before.    You  recollect,  he  said  he 


saw  the  flags  in  Fleet-street ;  therefore  in 
order  that  he  might  be  consistent  (and  I  did 
not  choose  to  wrangle  with  him  upon  the  oc- 
casion, though  it  certainly  was  not  exactly  cor- 
respondent with  the  evidence  he  first  gave,  for 
he  said  he  went  over  Blackfriars-bridgc,and  was 
not  out  of  his  house  till  he  went  down  to  the 
lobbv)  it  seems  he  was  out  of  his  house,  upon 
the  leads  of  St.  Dunstan's  church,  and  saw 
this  vast  cavalcade  of  people,  to  the  amount 
of  30,000,  and  was  able  to  distinguish  one  man 
so  as  to  know  that  the  man  he  saw  afterwards 
with  the  flag  at  the  House  of  Commons,  was 
the  very  man  he  saw  with  the  flag  in  Fleet- 
street. 

Here  I  must  refer  to  the  probability  of  the 
case;  if  juries  are  to  believe  witnesses,  merely 
because  thev  will  swear  to  facts,  juries  are  be- 
come of  little  use  indeed.  Those  who  are  ac- 
quainted with  the  profession  see  it,  and  la- 
ment when  they  see  it,  that  there  is  no  fact 
whatever,  that  witnesses  may  not  be  brought 
up  to  prove.  It  is  for  juries,  therefore,  to 
discriminate,  to  judge  between  the  pr^bablt 
and  the  improbable,  to  judge  bv  comparison 
of  the  testimony  he  gives,  with  the  probability 
of  the  case,  and  to  form  Uieir  judgment  whe- 
ther that  which  he  says  is  true.  Juries  be- 
come of  no  use  if  the^  are  to  believe  it  be- 
cause a  witness  swears  it:  they  have  to  lay 
aside  their  judgment,  and  only  make  use  of 
the  facultv  of  heanns  and  speaking,  and  the 
whole  is  done.  But  that  is  not  their  province; 
they  are  to  exercise  their  judgments;  they  arc 
to  winnow  the  evidence,  and  get  rid  of  that 
which  is  the  chaff;  and  are  only  to  abide  by 
that  which  informs  their  sober  judgment,  and 
enables  them  to  say,  that  here  deciding  upon 
the  life  of  a  fellow  citizen  we  cannot  mistake ; 
we  see  this  man  has  probability  added  to  his 
testimony;  we  see  that  he  is  supported  by 
other  witnesses.  Upon  this  part  of  the  evi- 
dence, I  conceive,  that  can  never  be  said  to  be 
the  case. 

When  he  is  brought  down  to  the  lobby  of 
the  House  of  Commons,  you  recollect  he  told 
you  at  first  there  was  great  confusion  there : 
.yet  in  the  midst  of  that  confusion,  this  man  is 
enabled  to  go  through  a  long  detail  of  what 
passed,  circumstantially,  minutely,  and  in  the 
words  in  which  it  is  given :  and  yet,  gentle- 
men, when  he  has  made  the  most  of  it,  what 
is  it  his  testimony  proves  ?  "  That  lord  George 
Gordon  only  exhorted  them  to  adhere  to  so 
good  a  cause,  that  he  himself  would  persevere 
m  it :''  and  he  said,  *'  that  though  he  had  no 
great  expectations  from  the  House  of  Com- 
mons, yet  that  tiiey  would  meet  with  redress 
firom  their  mild  and  gracious  sovereign." 
Were  they  then  not  to  have  redress  from  the 
House  of'^  Commons  ?  How  does  this  consist 
with  the  hj'pothesis  on  the  other  side  ?  The . 
House  of  Commons  were  to  be  coerced  to  do 
whatever  he  should  dictate  to  them.  But  he 
tells  them,  <<  If  the  House  will  not  do  it  for 
you,  you  must  apply  to  the  king  and  his  mi« 
nisters/'    Is  tins  tlie  language  of  the  man 


551] 


21  GEORGE  III.      Proceeding^  against  Lord  George  GordoHf      [5S8 


who  intended  in  the  moment  that  the  House 
of  Commons  were  collected  together,  that 
they  should  hy  force  and  violence  he  influ- 
enced to  come  to  a  vote,  should  do  that, 
which,  as  one  branch  of  the  legislature,  they 
could  not  achieve  ? 

Gentlemen,  he  foimd  afterwards  that  it  was 
necessary,  if  he  could,  to  couple  these  psCrties 
with  tiiose  he  had  seen  in  St.  George's-fields, 
and  when  he  was  asked  after  the  parties  about 
the  House  of  Commons,  and  stopping  up  the 
avenues  of  the  House,  how  he  knew  they  were 
the  same  persons ;  did  he  know  any  of  them  ? 
He  said,  he  only  saw  they  had  the  same  flags, 
and  that  one  of  the  men  he  had  seen  was  the 
man  who  carried  the  flag  in  Fleet-street.  I 
have  before  observed  upon  that,  you  will  re- 
collect the  station  he  was  in,  when  he  had  the 
view  of  that  man  in  Fleet^street,  and  you  will, 
if  you  can,  believe  he  carried  his  ideas  of  this 
man,  one  man  selected  flrom  30,000,  and  hav- 
ing the  ideas  of  that  man's  face  in  his  mind, 
he  was  able,  when  he  came  to  the  House  of 
Commons,  to  see  that  man,  out  of  100  or  200 
that  he  had  so  happily  fixed  upon  in  Fleet- 
street. 

This  witness  then  says  he  went  to  the  Sardi- 
nian ambassador's  chapel,  and  he  would  have 
you  believe  that  the  persons  doing  the  mischief 
there  were  part  of  the  company  who  were 
collected  in  St.  George'»-fields.     But  were 
they  so  ?    Did  he  know  anv  of  them .? — Did 
he  see  any  of  the  actors  in  the  business  ?  Yes; 
they  were  a  banditti  of  boys,  not  any  one  of 
them  having  a  cockade.    I  beg  you  will  bear 
it  in  your  minds,  because  it  was  possible,  and 
is  probable,  that  men  of  another  description 
were  those  that  did  that  business.    If  it  shall 
appear  in'the  sequel  of  the  cause,  that  that 
was  the  case,  even  from  the  testimony  of  this 
witness — a  witness  not  much  inclined  for  the 
clefendfent;  yet  he  may  be  pressed  into  the 
service  of  the  prisoner  at  the  bar.     Gentle- 
men, he  tells  you  there  was  one  person  who 
did  the  principm  mischief  at  that  chapel.    He 
does  not  tell  you  that  that  one  man  nad  any 
badges  belonging  to  the  Association  he  liad 
seen  in  St.  OeorgeVflelds ;  he  did  not  say 
that  man  had  a  cockade ;  that  man  certainly 
was  a  man  of  a  difterent  description  from 
those  that  met  lord  George  Goition  in  St. 
Georee's-fields,^r  the  counsel  for  the  crown 
would  have  proved  who  he  was.     But  the 
witness  says  there  was  a  multitude  there. 
What  did  tliey  do  ?   They  seeminglv,  says  the 
witness,  protected  them.    I  do  not  know  what 
seeiningly  protecting  is;  but  this  I  know,  that 
a  witness  well  inclmed  to  a  prosecution  will 
construe  every  light  action  mto  a  seeming; 
Hrhen  you  are  to  decide  you  cannot  anchor 
upon  such  evidence  as  that ;   it  is  impossible 
to  say  that  conveys  any  information  to  your 
mind;  therefore,  it  seems  to  me,  that  the 
'  whole  of  what  this  witness  says  cannot  be 
looked  upon  to  be  important  in  this  case. 

Gentlemen,  as  I  said  before,  he  might  have 
been  si^portcd  if  the  facts  that  he  sp^iks  of 


were  true,  and  who  the  witnesses  were  that 
might  have  supported  his  testimony,  misht 
have  been  learnt  by  the  examination  of  ttie 
man  himself;  for  he  states  to  you,  that 
McMillan,  by  name,  and  another  person, 
walked  with  him  from  the  lobby  of  the  House 
of  Commons  through  the  whole  deUul  of  Ihie 
business,  seeing  what  he  saw,  and  judnng  of 
those  occurrences  he  states  to  you.  Why  is 
nor  M^Milkm  csdled  ?  Is  not  McMillan  here) 
The  witness  tells  you  he  is  down  in  the  hall. 
Why  is  he  not  called  ?  Is  it  that  intelligence 
may  be  withheld  from  you  ?  Is  it  that  a  wit- 
ness, suspicious  in  himself,  and  speaking  sus- 
piciously, ought  not  to  be  supported  ^  Is  it 
that  the  case  is  to  stand  or  fall  by  that  sus^ 
cious  testimony  ?  Or  is  it  because  this  witnessL 
if  called,  would  have  ripped  up  the  case  ton 
by  his  principal,  and  tnerefore  the  learned 
conductor  of  the  prosecution  durst  not  call 
him,  because  he  would  have  stated  such  con- 
tradictions, and  imputed  sucfi  flagrant  falsities 
to  the  account  given  by  Hay,  as  would  not 
only  have  taken  from  Hay  all  credit,  Imt 
would  in  the  outset  of  the  case  have  stained 
the  prosecution. 

The  second  witness  who  is  called  to  you  '» 
William  Metcalf :   he  states  to  you  tlutt  he 
was  at  Coachmaker's-hall ;    and  the  great 
iqatter  to  afiect  the  noble  prisoner,  I  presume, 
is,  that  he  happened  to  be  there  called  to 
the  chair;   that  he  was  the  president  of  the 
meeting,  and  he  said  ^  the  Scotch  had  suo- 
ceeded  by  unanimity ;''  the  voice  of  the  people 
was  a^uist  the  wishes  of  individuals,  and 
the  wisdom  of  the  legislature  yielded  to  the 
voice  of  the  people,  not  to  the  force  and 
violence  of  the  people,  but  to  the  wishes  of 
the  people. — ^He  desired,  therefore,  that  the 
same  kind  of  arguments  might  prevail  here. 
As  to  the  wisdom  of  the  act  of  repeal,  I  shall 
say  nothing :  I  am  as  great  a  friend  to  tolera- 
tion as  any  man  that  ever  addressed  a  jury. 
All  I  can  say  upon  that  subject  is,  that  good 
men  and  wise  men  possibly  entertain  different 
opinions.    **  He  tells  you  the  Scotch  had  sue- 
ceeded  by  unanimity ;  be  desired,  if  he  was  to 
do  any  thing  for  them,  that  they  woukl  be 
unanimous  upon  the  subject;  and  he  said  that 
those  who  had  signed  the  petition   neither 
need  be  afraid  nor  ashamed  to  shew  that  they 
had  signed  it,  and  to  appear  at  the  House ; 
and  that  he  would  not  present  the  petition,  or 
begged  leave  to  decline  it,  unless  he  was  met 
by  80,000  people  in  St.  Georse's-fields.    He 
recommended  that  they  should  have  some 
mark  of  distinction,  and  that  he  would  answer 
for  any  that  should  be  molested;   that  he 
wished  so  well  to  the  cause,  that  he  would  00 
to  the  gallows  for  it.*'    The  other  honourable 
gentleipan  called  afterwards,  said  he  would 
either  ^  the  gallows  for  it,  or  to  death  for  it. 

If  this  matter  is  capable  of  explanation,  and 
shall  be  explained  hereafter  tQ  your  satisfiMC- 
tion,  much  as  the  stress  was  that  was  laid 
upon  the  words,  I  am  sure,  in  your  soberjudgv 
menty  |hey  will  not  wei^  a  father ;  and  hsvy 


B5S\ 


Jor  High  IVeasomn 


A.  D.  1781. 


[554 


Bg  Staled  the  words^  it  is  proper  I  shoold  ac- 
company the  poison  with  the  antidote.  If  it 
flhoiud  come  out,  that  at  tlus  very  meeting  at 
tiie  hall,  there  was  a  contrariety  of  opinion  in 
the  persons  there,  whether  an  act  of  parlia- 
ment was  in  force,  or  not,  which  act  prohibited 
persons,  above  the  number  of  twenty,  carry- 
mg  any  petition  to  the  legislature;  that  a 
gentleman  there,  of  the  profession  of  the  law, 
was  of  opinion  that  that  was  a  subsisting  law; 
aiid  that,  therefore,  the  parties  who  went  up 
might  be  involved  in  the  penalties  of  that 
law;  the  prisoner's  laneuage  arose  from  a  dif- 
ference ot  opinion  on  that  subject. — Speaking 
on  the  sudden,  I  conceive  that  that  is  not  a 
aubaasting  law.  Persons  who  read  that  sta- 
tute, and  the  Bill  of  Rights  upon  the  Revolu- 
tion, will,  perhaps,  find,  that  one  of  the  ar- 
ticles of  the  Bill  of  Rights  was  levelled  at  that 
law ;  as  we  learn  from  the  Bill  of  Rights,  that 
it  is  the  birthright  of  subjects  of  this  country 
to  petition  the  legislature ;  and  if  thev  do  it  in 
a  peaceable  manner,  whether  signed  by  20,  or 
ddo,  the  number  makes  no  difierence.  Sup- 
posing I  should  be  mistaken,  yet  that  point 
stands  very  remote  from  this  case,  and  at  a 
fetence  from  the  question ;  the  dcm*ee  of 
guih  imputed  to  the  prisoner ;  for,  by  tnat  act, 
a  misdemeanor,  perhaps,  might  be  introduced, 
and  the  party  might  say,  I  am  so  clear  upon 
the  subject,  I  will  run  thue  risk  of  committing 
the  misdemeanor ;  but  does  it  from  thence 
follow,  that  lord  George  Gordon  had  the  most 
distant  allusion  to  that  which  followed  after- 
wards, and  is  now  imputed  to  hun  as  guilt  of 
tills  enormous  size,  that  he  is  guilty  of  high- 
treason  ?  Your  imagination  must  outrun  what 
the  witnesses  have  said ;  and  must,  by  con- 
jecture and  inference,  in  a  case  of  blood,  make 
oat  that  kind  of  charge  which  this  evidence 
has  not  fixed  upon  the  prisoner. 

Gentlemen,  the  next  witness  that  was  call- 
ed,— I  ask  your  pardon  for  going  through  the 
evidence ;  but  I  have  much  anxiety  ror  the 
cause,  and  choose  to  omit  nothing  material — 
Mr.  Anstruther  states,  that  he  saw  lord 
George  Gordon  at  Coachmaker's-hall ;  he 
understood  he  was  acting  as  president ;  ^  he 
desired  the  parties  to  meet  him  at  St.  Oeorge's- 
fields ;  assuring  them,  that  unless  there  were 
^,000  people,  ne  would  not  present  the  Pe- 
tition ;"  he  says^  very  honourably  and  can- 
didly, that,  at  this  distance  of  time,  consider- 
ing the  variety  of  conversations  by  different 
p^ies  there,  that  it  was  impossible  for  him 
to  recollect  the  words  of  toe  speaker;  he 
says,  the  orisoner  "  recommended  following 
the  example  of  the  Scotch,  who,  by  perse- 
verance, had  carried  their  point;  and  he  re- 
commended to  them  temperance  upon  the 
subject.'*  That  being  stated  to  you  by  an  at- 
tentive witness,  a  roan  of  sense,  and  of  a  con- 
uderable  station  in  life,  I  have  no  doubt  he 
states  truly  what  did  pass,  and  states  all  that 
materially  did  pass ;  the  same  witness  speaks 
fo  what  passed  in  the  House  of  Commons  on 
Friday  followinj^ ;   he  speaks  tp  ail  the 


conversation  which  lord  George  Gordon  held 
when  he  was  leaning  over  the  raib,  and  talk* 
ing  to  the  parties  who  were  in  the  lobby  be- 
low ;  and  that  when  they  asked  him  whether 
they  should  go  away,  he  told  them,  ^  that 
they  were  the  judges ;  I'll  tell  you  how  the 
matter  stands :  the  House  is  going  to  divide 
upon  the  question,  whether  j^our  Petition 
shall  be  taken  into  consideration  now,  or 
upon  Tuesday ;  there  are  for  taking  it  into 
consideration  now^  myself,  and  six  or  seven 
others ;  if  not,  your  Petition  may  be  lost ;  to- 
morrow the  House  does  not  sit,  Monday  is 
the  kine[s  birth-day,  and  Tuesday,  possibly, 
the  paniameut  may  be  proroguea."  Now, 
gentlemen,  this  he  tells  you  was  all  that 
passed  when  lord  George  Gordon  addressed 
them  over  the  rails;  and  here  I  wish  you 
would  recollect  this  evidence,  bear  it  in  your 
mind;  and  see  how  far  all  that  is  recollected 
by  this  witness,  and  all  I  shall  presently  state 
to  you'  to  be  recollected  by  another  witness, 
comports  with  the  testimony  of  the  next  wit- 
ness, the  rev.  Mr.  Bowen. 

Mr.  Bowen  states  to  you  that  he  was  in 
the  gallery,  that  he  saw  lord  Georee  Gordon 
frequently  go  in  and  out  of  the  House,  that 
one  of  the  parties  asked  him  wli'ether  it  was 
necessary  tnat  they  should  go  or  not ;  that  he 
told  them  in  the  language  Mr.  Anstruther 
mentioned ;  that  he  told  them  iu  what  situa- 
tion the  business  was,  and  left  them  ifj  judge 
whether  they  would  go  or  n«»t.  But  this  wit- 
ness went  further,  and  told  you  that  his  lord- 
ship stated  to  them,  '*  that  an  attempt  had 
been  made  to  introduce  the  bill  into  Scot- 
land ;  that  the  Scotch  had  no  redress,  till 
they  pulled  down  the  mass-houses ;  that  lord 
Weymouth  sent  official  assuranc  es  that  the 
act  should  not  be  extended  to  them;  and 
why  should  the  Scotch  be  in  a  better  condi- 
tion than  we  ?"  Here  again,  upon  words  ex- 
tremely important  in  this  case,  you  are  \et\  to 
believe  that  this  is  so  upon  the  tebtimony  of 
a  single  witness.  Mr.  Anstruther  they  called 
to  you,  who  was  present  when  all  this  passed. 
Mr.  Cater  was  called,  who  was  also  in  the 
lobby,  and  heard  what  passed.  Neither  of 
these  witnesses  have  stated  to  you  any  con- 
versation of  the  kind ;  nor  out  of  the  great 
multitude  who  were  there,  men  of  all  colours 
and  descriptions,  who  might  easily  have  been 
found,  the  doon-keepers  of  the  House,  who 
were  in  a  situation  where  it  was  impossible 
that  any  thinjg  could  be  ssud  in  the  lobby,  but 
what  they  might  hear,  and  at  a  time  when 
silence  was  occasioned  by  his  lordship's  speak- 
ing to  them.  I  say  here  again,  upon  a  very 
important  part  of  the  case^  you  ^e  left  to  d&r 
cide  upon  the  credit  of  a  single  witness. 

The  observation  which  I  before  made  to 
you  upon  this  sort  of  evidence,  will  apply  to 
this  part  of  the  case.  It  is  enough  hr  me  to 
observe,  that  in  the  most  important  parts  of 
this  case,  as  far  as  you  have  hitherto  travelled 
in  the  cause,  the  counsel  for  the  crown  have 
chosen  to  leave- the  most  important  parts  of 


555] 


21  GEORGE  III.      Proceedings  agairui  Lord  George  Gordon^      [550 


the  case  not  only  not  supported  by  more  than 
one  witness,  but  not  attempted  to  be  sup- 
ported by  a  second  witness :  it  is  not  because 
ft  second  witness  might  not  be  called,  if  the 
matter  was  tnie ;  but  it  is  because  no  indus- 
try whatever  could  induce  other  witnesses  to 
come  to  swear  in  the  same  language.  I  do 
not  wonder  that  parties  are  not  extremely 
accurate  in  their  recollection  of  what  passed 
on  that  day :  it  was  a  day  of  tumult  and  con- 
^sion ;  a  day  of  much  agitation  of  mind,  un- 
doubtedly ;  and  that  this  gentleman  at  that 
time  was  friehtened,  that  his  mind  was  agi- 
tated, that  he  conceived  things  which  per- 
haps never  passed;  and  that  conception  being 
once  got  into  his  mind,  he  has  not  been  able 
to  erase  the  ideas  from  his  mind  since.  I 
can  only  say  that  this  is  possible ;  and  if  you 
put  him  in  a  situation  in  which  his  mind  was 
agitated,  you  put  him  in  a  situation  where 
you  cannot  decide  upon  the  impressions  he 
received,  when  he  is  giving  evidence  against 
a  man  standing  in  the  situation  of  the  pri- 
soner, who  has  so  much  at  stake. 

The  next  witness  was  Mr.  Cater ;  he  states, 
in  the  same  manner  Mr.  Anstruther  does, 
what  passed  in  the  lobby  of  the  House;  he 
tells  you  of  the  very  conversation  which  ac- 
companied that  Mr.  Bowen  spoke  to ;  name- 
ly, lord  George  Gordon  talking  to  them  about 
their  goine  or  not  going  away;  the  veiy 
words  whicn  were  concomitant  to  those  vioias 
about  the  mass-houses  in  Scotland ;  and  yet 
not  one  word  did  he  recollect  of  that  aggra- 
vating kind  of  langpage. 

The  three  door-keepers  are  called;    the 

auestioQ  is  not  put  to  one  of  them,  because 
le  gentlemen  knew  what  Ihey  would  say : 
{for  undoubtedly  their  evidence  has  been  can- 
vassed backwards  and  forwards  before,  and 
put  upon  paper,  otherwise  the  dutv  <^  the 
officers  of  the  crown  has  not  been  done)  yet 
not  one  of  these  witnesses  has  been  brought 
to  state  to  you,  that  that  obnoxious  conversa- 
tion, which  Mr.  Bowen  states,  was  held  by 
lord  George  Gordon  at  the  time. 

Gentlemen,  the  testimony  of  some  of  the 
other  witnesses  has  introduced  into  the  lobby, 
persons  who  state  themselves  not  to  be  con- 
nected with  lord  George  Gordon ;  as  that  tes- 
timony has  introduced  some,  it  is  not  impro- 
bable but  many  others,  of  the  like  descrip- 
tion, were  there ;  it  is  not  only  probable  that 
that  was  the  case,  but  the  testimony  of  sub- 
sequent witnesses  state,  beyond  all  contro- 
versy, that  was  the  case ;  for  Mr.  Rainforth, 
the  next  witness  whose  name  meets  my  eye, 
states,  th»U  the  person  who  was  there,  urgent 
for  the  repeal,  was  a  man  of  a  very  different 
description  to  any  of  those  who  accompani^ 
lord  George  Gordon,  a  colonel  MUes.  Will 
any  man  state,  that  colonel  Miles  was  one  of 
the  Protestant  Association  ?  Was  he  not,  no- 
toriously, a  man  of  a  different  description  ? 
yet  he  was  the  person  who  harangued,  as  Mr. 
Rainforth  calls  it,  the  mob,  in  the  lobby  of 
|hc  House  of  Commons ;  and  who  called  out. 


^'  Repeal,  repeal  V*  and  who  seems  the  verjr 
soul  of  that  meeting  so  got  together.  What 
then  does  this  prove?  not  that  the  parsons 
under  lord.  Georse  Gordon's  controul,  but 
men  of  a  very  difierent  description,  and  under 
the  controul  of  persons  of  a  very  difierent  de« 
scription,  held  tnat  conversation  in  the  lobby « 
which  has  been  imputed  to  lord  George  Gor- 
don as  criminal ;  and  yet  lord  George  Uordon 
is  now,  by  inference,  intendment,  suspicion 
and  coniecture,  to  be  made  answerable  for 
that  guilt  which  is  specifically,  by  witnesses, 
attributed  to,  and  fastened  upon  otl\er  men. 

Gentlemen,  much  pains  has  been  used  in 
order  to  shew,  that  the  members  of  two  of  the 
bodies  of  the  legislature  were  interrupted  in 
their  journey  down,  to  attend  the  national 
business,  by  persons  brought  together,  for 
that  ill  purpose,  by  lord  George  Gordon.  In 
the  first  place,  no  mtemiption  of  the  kind  is 
proved  by  any  body  but  one  witness ;  you  are 
told  that  Mr.  Welbore  Ellis  was  interrupted  ; 
why  was  not  he  here  ?  he  was  here ;  why  not 
called  to  prove  it  true  ?  Was  it  not  possible  ta 
bring  the  bishop  of  Lincoln  here  ?  yet  none 
of  these  persons  are  called.  A  person  is  caUed 
to  tell  you,  somebody  told  him,  he  had  been 
told  by  another,  that  t^e  bishof)  of  Lincoln 
was  obliged  to  so  out  of  his  chariot,  and  his 
wheels  were  taken  off.  It  is  not  fair ;  I  do 
not  impute  blame  to  the  Attorney  Greneral ; 
for  his  candour  is  equal  to  his  abilities ;  when 
I  say  that,  I  state  lum  ht^h  indeed ;  but  it  is 
not  fair,  in  a  case  of  this  kind,  by  telling  a 
story,  and  wishing  the  Jury  should  believe  it 
because  the  witness  beheved  it,  but  not  knew 
it,  that  the  jury  should  believe,  and  have  it 
once  impressed  in  their  minds,  at  an  hour 
when  their  minds  are  harassed  out,  and  all 
attention  asleep ;  when  it  is  difficult  for  the 
most  attentive  to  distinguish  what  is  material 
from  what  is  not  material ;  and  yet  it  is  by 
evidence  of  this  kind,  and  this  kind  only,  that 
a  very  important,  possibly  the  most  important 
feature  in  this  cause,  is  to  be  laid  before  you. 
In  one  instance  only,  is  any  thing  of  the  kind, 
by  legal  evidence,  imputed :  and  that  was  the 
case  of  lord  Sandwich;  which  was,  I  observed, 
with  some  eafemess,  asked  afler ;  and  how 
is  that  proved?  Mr.  Hyde,  the  justice  of  peace, 
says,  that  when  he  came  there,  lord  Sand- 
wich was  hurt  in  his  chariot;  the  witness  did 
not  tell  you  by  whom  he  was  hurt ;  but  there 
were  parties  there  with  blue  cockades ;  and 
persons  there  not  with  the  badges  of  those  in 
St.  George's-^elds;  but  men  of  totally  ano- 
ther description ;  men  not  with  that  mark  by 
which  you  are  told  the  Protestant  Association 
were  to  be  distinguished,  they  had  red  and 
black  flags ;  they  were  men  of  another  de- 
scription ;  it  \a  possible  they  might  be,  it  is 
probable  they  were,  a  different  set  of  people  ; 
It  is  certain  they  might  be;  they  had  not 
those  badges  which  discriminated  the  other. 

This,  1  think,  is  the  whole  of  the  evidence 
which  has  been  hud  before  you  on  the  be- 
half of  the  crown;   aiid  if,  upon  this  evi« 


557]  Jhr  High  Treason. 

dence  alone,  you  were  to  retire  to  consider  of 
your  verdicty  dispensing  justice  with  mercy, 
going  upon  sober,  solid,  and  sure  ground, 
giving  your  verdict  in  a  manner  for  whicii 
your  mmds  will  never  upbraid  you,  where 
you  could  never  ask  yourselves  whether  you 
had  gone  upon  conjecture  or  certainty,  I  con- 
ceive you  would  think  it  much  too  much, 
upon  evidence  of  such  kind,  to  impute  to  a 
]»er8on  who  stood,  prior  to  thistimejin  a  situa- 
tion that  little  called  for  suspicion  upon  him, 
who  stood  in  a  situation  having  every  thing 
to  expect  from  good  government,  nothing  to 
get  by  things  TOing  Uirown  into  coniiision, 
anarchy  and  rebellion.  Upon  such  evidence, 
I  should  think  you  would  conceive  it  too  much 
to  draw  conclusions  against  him  which  must 
lead  to  the  infliction  of  the  last  punishment, 
which  must  be  the  case  if  high  treason  is  im- 
puted to  him. 

I  cannot  forbear  relyine  much  upon  that 
which  has  not  been  proved  by  the  otiier  side. 
Does  it  appear,  after  the  many  prosecutions 
that  were  commenced,  that  one  single  indi- 
vidual, connected  with  tord  George,  or  be- 
longing to  that  association  which  he  was  pre- 
sident of,  has  .ever  been  found  obnoxious  to 
the  laws  of  the  country? — ^Has  criminal 
guilt  been  fastened  on  any  of  them  ?  Has 
one  of  them  been  indicted?  Has  one  of 
them  been  put  in  hazard?  Has  a  crime  been 
imputed  to  them,  legally  in  a  court  of 
justice  ?  Gentlemen,  it  has  not ;  active  and 
anxious  as  the  officers  of  the  crown  have 
been;  and  it  became  them  well,  as  far  as 
they  could,  to  investigate  enormities  of  the 
kind,  that  nave  been  so  feelingly,  and  I  wish 
I  could  not  say,  in  rather  an  aggravated 
manner,  stated  to  you ;  it  was  their  duty  to 
drag  the  offender  from  the  corner  in  which 
he  lay  concealed,  to  bare  his  head  in  the 
face  of  justice,  and  punish  him  if  he  is  guilty; 
yet  all  that  anxiety,  conducted  by  great  abi- 
lities, has  not  been  able  to  impute  a  crime  to 
any  one  man  of  the  denomination  of  those 
lord  George  Gordon  was  the  head  of;  if  that 
is  so,  permit  me  to  submit  to  you  the  case 
upon  which  I  stand.  I  admit  that  there  were 
enormities  coiAmitted  of  so  gross,  so  flagrant 
a  kind,  as  to  be  a  reproach  to  the  country ; 
that  punishment  ought,  and  did  tread  upon 
the  heels  of  the  offenders ;  that  it  is  impos- 
•ible  for  eloquence  much  superior  to -mme, 
for  imaginauons  much  more  lively  than 
mine,  to  paint  these  enormities  in  too  high 
colours.  But  it  mav  be  supposed,  that  when 
a  multitude  of  people,  not  a  mob  of  people, 
were  got  together,  for  good,  at  least,  not  for 
illegal  purposes,  at  least  not  for  traitorous 
purposes,  for  that  is  enough  for  me,  not  for 
traitorous  purposes,  if  you  can  suppose  that 
other  people,  of  much  worse  prinaples,  and 
having  much  worse  designs  to  achieve, 
availing  themselves  of  the  meetins  of  the  As- 
■ociation,  did  set  together  from  aU  comers  of 
the  town,  ana  formed  that  banditti  repre- 
•ented  to  be  at  tht  Sardinian  ambassaoor's 


A.  D.  1781. 


t558 


chapel,  and  perpetrated  the  conflagrationi 
that  happened  — How  is  this  to  be  imputed  to 
lord  Geor^  Gordon  ?  The  Attorney  General 
tells  you,  if  a  man  turns  out  a  wild  beast,  ha 
is  guilty  of  murder,  if  a  man  is  killed  by  it. 
I  deny  it ;  it  is  not  the  law  of  the  land^  nor 
the  law  of  humanity.  If  a  man  turns  a  wild 
bes^t  into  a  room,  where  death  must  neces- 
sarily ensue,  no  doubt  he  is  as  guilty  as  if  a 
man  shot  into  a  crowd :  but  where  a  beast  is 
tiumed  out,  and  the  probable  consequences 
will  not  be  that  death  will  ensue,  ^en  is  the 
crime  to  be  imputed  to  him?  it  never  has 
been,  there  is  not  a  decision,  not  a  dictum 
upon  the  point.  I  have  looked  into  the 
place  from  which  the  Attorney  General  sup- 
poses he  got  his  doctrine.  But  suppose  it  was 
so,  for  God's  sake  how  does  that  bear  upon 
this  point  ?  Was  lord  Geor^  Gordon's  Asso- 
ciation this  wild  beast?  It  he  had  a  tame 
beast  in  his  hand,  and  another  taking  occa- 
sion from  the  tame  beast  being  brought  there, 
letsrout  a  wild  beast,  will  the  Attorney  Gene- 
ral say  that  he  that  leads  tiie  tame  beast  in 
his  hand  is  to  be  answerable  because  another 
person  opens  a  place  and  lets  out  a  tyger  or 
hyaena  ?  In  the  name  of  common  humanity, 
and  common  sense,  I  call  upon  the  counsel 
for  the  prosecution  to  press  the  point.  I 
know  they  will  not :  if  they  should,  the  law 
would  fail  them,  and  humanity  would  fail 
them  also.  I  know  they  will  not  state  it,  be^ 
cause  it  is  not  the  law  of  the  land. 

Lord  George  Gordon  was  the  president  of 
a  Protestant  Association;  an  act  had  passed 
which  gave  offence,  right  or  wrong  I  will  not 
say;  perhaps  my  opinion  may  he  it  gave 
causeless  ground  of  offence:  but  God  forbid, 
that  because  I  difler  with  men  in  opinions, 
that  therefore  I  am  to  treat  them  as  traitors 
to  the  laws  of  their  country.  It  is  the  happi- 
ness of  our  nation  that  our  laws 'are  not  uka 
the  laws  of  the  Medes  and  Persians;  they 
are  subject  to  revision,  and  to  be  discussed 
and  decided  upon  soberly :  and  it  is  not.  only 
the  province  of  Englishmen,  but  their  duty, 
if  they  think  there  are  laws  which  press  upon 
legal  liberty,  or  if  there  are  laws  which  un- 
properly  tolerate  men  whose  principles  art 
hostile  to  the  constitution,  to  petition  for  a 
review  of  such  laws.  I  do  not  say  that  that 
is  the  case  of  the  law  which  gave  rise  to  tha 
Association ;  but  if  they  think  so,  they  have 
a  right  to  ask  parliament,  that  the  matter 
should  be  reviewed ;  that  it  should  be  soberly 
discussed,  and  after  discussion,  should  be  de- 
cided upon;  and  if  the  wisdom  of  parliament 
think  it  ought  to  be  repealed,  they  have  a 
right  to  ask  for  the  repeal. 

with  these  principles,  which  I  never  will 
disavow,  which  no  man  will  state  to  you  to  be 
unconstitutional  principles,  this  Association 
met;  and  after  some  time,  for  they  had  an 
existence  long  before  lord  George  Gordon 
was  called  in;  but  thinking  well  of  him  from 
his  character,  I  presume,  being  a  man  of 
blameless  life  ana  conversation^  a  man  no^ 


659] 


SI  GEORGE  III.      Proceedings  againH  Lhrd  George  Gordon^     [560 


mixing  in  the  vices  of  this  a^e,  a  man  irre- 
proachable in  his  moral  and  religious  walk  too 
^-thev  thought  that  having  such  a  man  at 
their  head  would  give  weight  to  their  delibe- 
irationsy  and  that  -such  a  man,  if  he  carried 
their  request  to  the  foot  of  the  throne,  would 
be  attended  to  as  a  man  of  moral  conversa- 
tion and  religious  life  ought  to  be  attended  to. 
— ^Whether  these   were   the   motives    that 
weighed  with  them,  or  not,  I  do  not  know : 
but  some  motives,  however,  did  induce  them 
to  invite  him  to  sit  at  the  head  of  that  As* 
sociation.     He  went  with  them,  conversed 
wiUithem ;  he  told  the  House  of  Commons  he 
had  been  sitting  with  men  of  such  description ; 
he  was  told  that  his  petition  would  have  no 
weight ;  that  there  were  forged  names  to  it : 
he  was  told  that  other  petitions  had  been 
treated  with  neglect^  and  that  the  names  he 
should  bring  were  forgeries.    He  knew  the 
uprightness  of  his  own  intentions,  and  was 
conscious  of  the  falsity  of  that  aspersion ;  for 
it  was  a  foul  aspersion  indeed ;  and  it  belonged 
to  him  to  take  away  all  possibility  of  doubt 
on  tlie  imputation  of  forgery,  in  order  that 
those   who  were  to  judge  of  this  petition, 
might  be  informed  wheUier  it  contamed  the 
wisnesofsuch  a  number  of  people;  for  that 
reason  lord  George  Gordon  wisned  the  peti- 
tioners might  attend  him  to  the  House   of 
Commons:  fiut  how   were  they  to  come? 
Were  they  to  have  banners  flying,  and  be  ar- 
rayed for  war  ?  for  the  language  that  has  been 
used  to  you,  conveys  every  idea  short  of  that. 
The  word  *  array'  was  not  so  often  thun- 
dered in  your  ears,  and  *  columns'  and  '  divi- 
sions,' and  '  marching  under  banners,'  was 
not  a  language  used  For  no  purpose.    Wit- 
nesses do  nofdescribe  actions  which  passed  in 
those  words,  which  it  appears  were  not  used, 
without  ^me  purpose ;  and  when  that  same 
purpose  can  only  be  a  bad  purpose,  because  it 
distorts  thf  facts  beyond  their  ordinary  force ; 
I  sav  then  you  must  suspect  the  whole  of  the 
evidence. — But  I  was  turned  a  little  on  one 
side  from  what  I  was  disposed  to  say  to  vou. 
How   were  these  people  brought  together? 
were  they  brought  together  in  military  array  ? 
It  has  not  been  suggested*    It  is  true,  an 
officer  of  the  military  association  from  the 
city  of  London  told  you  that  he  met  some  of 
these   people  with   sticks,   cutlasses,  mus- 
kets.    But  were  those   any  of  the  parties 
who  were  in  Saint  George's-flelds  ?  had  they 
any  such  thins}?  They  were  ordered  to  be 
there  at  ten  o'dock  in  the  morning :  tlie  rea- 
son that  was  given  whv  they  were  to  meet  so 
early,  was,  it  vras  an  hour  no  drunken  peo- 
ple would  mix  with  them.    That  no  offence 
might  be  ^iven,  it  was  desired  that  no  stick 
might  be  m  their  hands;  that  they  would 
come    in  their  best  clothes;  and,  m  order 
that  they  might  be  known  from  other  persons, 
that  they  would  have  their  blue  cockades; 
that  they  would,  be   in   certain   divisions, 
in  order  that  those  who  were  in  one  part, 
i^ght  know  their  fellows^  and  bti  Imo^m  by 


them ;  in  order  that  if  any  strangers  com* 
mitted  any  outrage  and  excess,  they  mi^t 
be  singled  out,  itna  delivered  over  to  the  civil 
power,  to  be  punished;   and  in  order  that 
there  might  be  no  riot  and  confusion  when 
the  petition  was  delivered,  th^y  were  or- 
dered to  go  round  London  bridge.    In  the 
mean  time  the  petition  was  delivered,  they 
came  through  the  city :  in  the  course  of  that 
journey,  when  people  riotously  inclined  would 
hardly  have  missed  an  opportunity  to  riot, 
you  do  not  find  the  least  excess,  not  the  least 
violation  of  good  behaviour  imputed  to  them. 
But  if  you  shall  find  that  before  they  arrived 
there,  another  mob,  not  belonging  to  them, 
were  got  together ;  if  you  shall  nna  that  the 
avenues  of  the  House  of  Commons  were  got 
in  possession  of  by  others ;  if  you  shall  &A 
that  excesses  were  committed ;  if  you  shall 
find,  in  confirmation  of  the  testimony  given 
you  by  the  witnesses  you  have  ah^y  heard, 
that  men  of  another  description,  of  colonel 
Miles's  description,  were  there  ;  where  then  is 
the  great  imputation  on  lord  G^eorge  Gordon? 

I  do  not  tell  you  that  this  business  was  not 
fit  for  the  most  sober  and  splcmn  enquiry. 
Most  undoubtedly,  it  was  behovetiil  for  go- 
vernment that  it  should  be  enquired  into: 
but  it  would  be  a  libel  upon   government  to 
suppose  that  guilt  should  be  affixed  to  that 
man  to  whom  it  docs  not  belong.    Sufficient 
for  every  man  are  his  own  offences.    If  other 
men  have  been  guilty  of  a  violation  of  the 
laws  of  the  country,  these  violations,  are  not 
to  be  placed  to  the  reckoning  of  lord  George 
Gordon.    But  excesses  were  committed,  and 
were  committed  in  other  parts  of  the  town : 
and  lord  George  Gordon  has,  say  the  gentle- 
men, by  his  subsequent  acts,  taken  to  him- 
self, has  adopted  these  excesses;-  and  I  am 
sorrv  to  see  by  what  medium  of  proof  that  it 
made  out ;   by  no  sing;le  act  of  lord  George 
Gordon's,  but  that  he  signed  what  is  called  a 
protection.    You  will  be  struck  with  wonder 
and  astonishment  when  you  hear  how  that 
happened ;   lord   George   Gordon,   alarmed 
and   filled  with  consternation  at  the  riots 
which  had  taken  place  in  the  town,  finding 
that  the  blame  was  imputed  to  him,  and  wilC 
ing  to  shew  all  the  alacrity  which  man  could 
shew  to  get  rid  of  the  imputation  if  he  possi^ 
bly  cdul^  desired  that  he  might  have  acces* 
to  his  sovereign ;  it  will  be  proved  to  you 
that  he  went  to  the  palace ;  tne  Secretary  of 
State  will  be  called,  who  will  state  to  vou  lofd 
George  Gordon's  apphcatton;  that  became 
humbly  to  throw  himself  at  the  feet  of  tht 
throne^  professing  his  own  innocence;  but 
sorry  from  the  consequences  that  were  sup> 
posed  to  result  from  acts  of  his :   he  had  not 
access  to  his  sovereign,  I  do  not  know  that 
he  has  any  reason  to  complain,  but  be  was 
told  that  lie  ought,  as  a  test  of  his  loyalty,  to 
go  into  the  city,  and  see  if  he  could  do  any 
thing  to  stop  it. 

When  he  went  into  the  city^  how  did  iM 
go?  Did  he  go  at  theheftd  of,  or  mix  witl% 


561} 


Jof  High  TreatoH. 


A.  D.  1781. 


[562 


the  mob  }  Instead  of  that,  he  went  with  one 
of  those  who  are  conservators  of  the  peace,  a 
jna^strate  of  high  authority  in  the  city  of 
London,  Mr.  Sheri£FPugh;  in  comnany  with 
tbttt  magistrate,  he  was  going  to  enect.  as  &r 
as  he  could,  that  which  be  was  ordered  to  ef- 
fect as  a  test  of  his  loyalty.  A  person  pame 
to  him,  and  told  him^  if  a  note,  which  he 
brought  to  him^  was  signed  by  him,  it  might 
have  a  ^Qod  efitect  Suppose  ne  had  reused 
to  sign  It,  I  am  sure  it  would  have  bore  hard 
upon  him ;  it  would  have  been  said,  a  person 
haying  a  house,  inhabited  b^r  a  Roman  Catho- 
lic, applied  to  him  to  use  his  supposed  influ-. 
eoct,  tnat  it  would  be  doing  him  a  eood  turn, 
and  he  refused  it:  he  felt  it  his  duty  to  at- 
tempt it ;  if  he  had  refused  it,  and  if  that  ar- 
Sment  had  been  urged  aeainst  him,  I  should 
ve  found  some  difficulty  in  turning  the 
ed^  of  it ;  but  when  what  he  did  on  t&t  oc- 
casion is  to  bring  upon  his  shoulders  all  the 
violence  that  was  committed  in  the  city,  When 
by  this  he  is  to  be  supposed  to  have  adopted 
the  acts  of  the  miscreants  who  committed  all 
the  enormities  you  have  heard  of,  and  to  ac- 
knowledge that  he  was  connected  with  those 
men,  in  my  apprehension,  that  evidence  is 
strained  much  oeyond  its  fair  import.  It 
seems  to  me,  that  that  is  the  only  medium 
of  proof  by  which  he  is  attempted  to  be  affect- 
ed as  lo  what  passed  in  the  city,  I  am  sure  it 
will  not  be  laia  much  stress  upon,  because  I 
know  it  ought  not ;  and,  in  a  case  of  this 
kind,  things  are  not  to  oe  strained  beyond 
their  proper  import.  I  know  it  ought  not  to 
be  urg^  against  him,  that,  at  several  days 
distance,  people  with  blue  cockades  commit* 
ted  violences.  You,  yourselves,  surveyed  the 
town;  you  know  that  men,  of  all  denomina- 
tions and  descriptions,  used  blue  cockades; 
you  know  that  there  walked  about  the  cit^ 
bandittis^  different,  in  all  respects,  from  this 
Association,  that  robbed  and  plundered; 
women  have  been  executed  for  these  riots, 
but  it  is  not  pretended  that  they  were  of  the 
Association.  It  is  by  inference  and  intend- 
ment that  you  are  to  fix  this  euilt. 

Gentlemen,  I  have  opened  to  you  as  much 
as  seems  necessaiy  to  open,  of  the  case  of 
lord  George  Gordon.  I  have  made  those  ob- 
s9vations  which  occurred  to  me  on  the  case 
laid  before  you  for  the  crown.  Gentlemen^ 
from  your  own  knowledge  in  the  discharge  of 
jour  duty,  vou  know  uiat  in  this  case  the 
nets  axe  to  be  made  out,  the  guilt  to  be  ascer- 
timoed  beyond  all  doubt.  It  is  not  at  hazard 
tbat  men  are  to  be  convicted  of  such  offences: 
yaa  are  to  separate  one  transection  from  the 
other,  and  to  see  how  hx  each  separately 
goes :  you  are  not  to  bundle  them  together, 
and  see  whether  that  bundle  of  nothing 
makes  out  something.  Juries  must  see  that 
there  is  gromid  upon  which  they  go,  carrying 
conviction  to  their  minds  that  Uie  imputed 
goilt  is  |>roved.  If  that  is  not  made  out  to 
Your  satb^tion,  however  your'passions  may 
fef  warmed  by  yrhfd  you  saw  m  tliose  cala- 

Voi.  XXI. 


mitous  days,  you  wiU,  I  am  sure,  divest  your 
minds  of  these  cbrcumstances :  you  come  to 
this  trial  with  minds  totally  clear  and  impar- 
tial :  you  bring  into  court  no  knowledge  nor 
suspicions  upon  the  subject,  which  are  to  in- 
fluence your  judement :  you  come  here  to  at- 
tend to  the  evidence  given,  attending  at  the 
same  time  to  the  oaths  you  have  taken,  you 
are  to  decide  upon  the  evidence,  you  are  to 
say  whether  lord  George  Gordon  is  guilty  or 
not  guiky. 

I  Know  that  I  speak  to  men  of  character 
and  station  in  the  world,  and  of  good  sense ; 
and  who  know  that  their  duty  is  to  do  jus- 
tice ;  and  know  at  the  same  time  that  every 
favourable  construction  is  to  be  made  in  be- 
half of  the  prisoner.  That  has  always  been 
the  language  of  courts,  and  will  be  the  lan- 
guage of  this  court  this  day. 

Under  these  observations  I  shall  call  a  few 
witnesses ;  and  hope  you  will  in  the  result 
find  that  lord  George  Gordon,  whatever 
blame  or  fault  may  be  imputed  to  him,  is 
not  guilty  of  high  treason  vfith  which  he  now 
stands  charged. 

Mr.  Enkine.  My  lord,  I  mean  to  reserve 
my  address  to  the  jury  till  afler  the  witnesses 
for  the  prisoner  have  been  called.  There  is 
a  precedent  for  it  in  the  State  Trials ;  and 
I  take  it  for  mnted,  that  lord  Georjee  Gor- 
don will  be  indulged  in  every  thing  that  any 
man  has  been  indulged  in  since  tlie  statute  of 
king  William. 

Court.  As  far  as  I  am  concerned  in  it,  I 
shall  be  very  glad  to  hear  you  at  any  stage, 
when  itis  most  desirable  to  yourself. 

Mr.  Attorney  General,  I  am  sure  no  ob- 
jection will  be  made  on  the  part  of  the  ooun« 
sel  for  the  prosecution. 

The  Rev.  Erasmui  MiddUton  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Enkine. 

You  are  a  clergyman  of  the  Church  of  Eng*' 
land?— lam. 

And,  I  believe,  a  member  of  the  Protestant 
Association  ?— Yes. 

Are  you  pastor  of  any  church  i^l  am  lec- 
turer of  St.  Bonnet's  Gracechurch-street,  and 
St.  Helen's,  Bishopsgate-street. 

How  long  have  you  been  a  member  of  the 
Protestant  Association? — ^From  some  time  in 
Febniaiy,  1779. 

Did  you  attend  the  meetings  held  by  that- 
Association,  previous  to  the  delivery  of  the 
Petition 'to  parliament?—!  did. 

Did  you  attend  them  regularly  ?— -Yes;  re- 
gularly. 

Were  you  a  member  of  the  committee  ?— I 
i  was. 

I  State  to  the  Court  and  the  Jury,  begiiming 
at  that  time,  all  that  you  saw*  and  heard  at 
these  meetings  of  the  Protestant  Association, 

{)revious  to  the  delivery  of  this  Petition,  when 
ord  George  Gordon  was  present.    Give  an 
12  0 


56S] 


21  GEOKGE  in.      ProeeedingB  wgaina  Lord  George  Gordon^     [561 


account'  of  the  constitution  of  the  Associar 
tion,  and  its  object  previous  to  the  time  lord 
GeorgjB  Gordon  became  President  of  it? — The 
Association  ^nras  foimea  some  time  in  Fe- 
bruary, 1778,  in  consequence  of  a  bill  brought 
into  the  House  of  Commons  by  sir  George 
Savile,  to  repeal  certain  penalties  against  the 
Papists;  a  Yew  persons  met  at  Coachmakers' 
Hall,  in  Foster-lane,  Cheapside,  in  the  same 
month  of  Februaiy. 

Mr.  Attorney  General,  What  is  it  you  are 
reading  ?-*Some  notes  respecting  dates  and 
times. 

Mr.  Erskine,  When  did  you  make  them  ? — 
I  really  cannot  tell. 

Lately? — ^No;  I  made  them  from  time  to 
time  as  they  occurred.  The  Association  met 
from  time-  to  time  in  order  to  oppose  the 
growth  and  increase  of  Popery,  bj  pubUshing 
Bttie  books,  and  b^  making  enqiuries  into  tiie 
schools,  and  the  increase  of  those  schools : 
and  they  agreed,  that  this  Association  should 
be  open  to  all  Protestants  and  Protestant  mi- 
nisters ;  that  they  should  meet  quarterly,  in 
the  months  of  July,  October,  January,  and 
April.  Several  public  meetings  were  held, 
and  several  resolutions  come  to  of  that  na- 
ture, of  publishing  books.  The  lord  bishop 
of  litchfield  and  Coventry  [Hurd]  was  re- 
quested to  permit  two  sermons  of  his  lord- 
anip's  to  be  printed  for  that  purpose.  His 
loroship  declined  that,  looking  upon  it^  that 
if  they  were  taken  out  of  the  connection  in 
which  they  stood,  they  would  not  be  so  serw 
viceable  as  some  others  which  his  lordship 
recommended  to  us  of  archbishop  Seeker's, 
Tillotson's..  and  others.  We  then  printed 
one  of  bishop  Gibson's  letters  in  his  Pastoral 
Care,  and  some  otiier  httle  things,  and  dis- 
persed tiiem  abroad;  we  likewise  wrote  an 
Appeal  to  the  Public,  which  was  pubhshed  on 
the  5th  of  November,  1779.  On  the  12th  of 
Nov.  1779,  we  wrote  a  letter  soliciting  lord 
Georce  Gordon  to  become  our  president;  his 
lordship  condescendingly  acceded  to  our  peti- 
tion, and  from  that  time  became  our  honour- 
able president.  In  this  Association  we  had 
nil  along  in  our  view,  as  our  model,  the  Pro- 
testant Association  in  1696,  when  the  king, 
with  both  Houses  of  Parliament,  the  bishops 
and  clergy,  signed  it,  and  his  majesty,  king 
William  3,  proposed  it  should  be  lodged  in 
the  Records  of  the  Tower.  His  lordship  first 
met  us  in  the  committee  about  three  or  four 
days  afler  he  had  condescended  to  become 
our  president. 

Court.  It  cannot  be  material  to  go  through 
the  histoxy  of  your  meetings,  but  only  what 
is  relative  to  this  petition.—^.  I  can  only 
mention  his  lordship's  conduct,  public  and 
private,  thrau^out  tne  business  or  the  Asso- 
ciation. His  lordship  demeaned  himself  every 
Way  in  the  most  loyal  affectionate  manner : 
for  my  own  part,  I  must  confess  I  watched 
over  tus  lordship's  copduct  and  conversation 
with  a  deeree  of  jealousy,  knowmg  that  we 
w«re  ourselves  all  well  koxnm  to  one  another^ 


the  committee  well  attached  to  our  preseor 
sovereiflsi  and  coiistitution,  and  that  we  were 
resolved  [not]  to  ^ve  nor  allow  any  speech  or 
conversation  that  should  tend  in  the  least  to 
reflect  upcm  any  people  whatever,  and  partico- 
larly  administration.  His  lordship  appeared 
always  the  most  calm  and  dispassionate  of 
any  one  of  us,  from  all  I  could  ever  learn ;  and, 
as  I  said  before,  I  looked  at  his  lordship  at  all 
times  with  a  kind  of  jealousy.  I  never  could 
discover  that  his  lordship  had  any  other  design 
or  end  in  view,  but  simply  that  which  we  had 
in  view,  the  Protestant  mterest,  and  by  all 
legal  and  constitutional  means  to  petition  the 
House  of  Commons  to  repeal,  or  to  explain 
that  act,  according  to  our  petition.  In  afl  pri- 
vate conversation  I  have  ever  had  witii  his 
lordship,  he  always  expressed  the  warmest  at- 
tachmait  of  afiection  and  loyalty  to  the  king, 
the  constitution,  and  the  Protestant  interest; 
we  looked  upon  ourselves  happy  in  having  bis 
lordship  as  our  president,  not  only  on  account 
of  his  rank,  but  on  account  of  his  good  moral 
character  and  of  his  abilities. 

Did  you  at  any  of  these  numerous  meetings 
of  this  Protestant  Association  which  you  at* 
tended,  from  the  time  lord  George  GoidoD 
became  president  of  it,  till  tile  99th  of  May; 
did  you  ever  hear  lord  George  Gordon,  in  his 
public  speeches  in  that  Association,  make  use 
of  any  expressions  which  shewed  any  disloyal 
unconstitutional  intentions  in  him? — ^Notin 
the  least ;  the  very  reverse  in  mv  opinion. 

Did  all  his  speeches,  delivered  as  president, 
meet  with  your  approbation  ;  and  did  it  ap- 
pear to  you  that  nis  views  were  the  same 
as  those  of  the  whole  associated  body?— 
Quite  so. 

Did  you  ever  hear  lord  Georze  Gordon 
make  use  of  any  expressions,  as  ir  be  meant 
to  repeal  this  Bill  by  force  of  arms  ? — ^Not  in 
the  least,  neither  directly  og  indirectly. 

Or  to  do  it  by  terror  or  intimidation  ?— No, 
by  no  means ;  nor  any  expression  that  Ml  at 
all  to  it. 

Did  you  ever  hear  lord  Geoise  Goidon 
make  use  of  any  expression,  whicri  even  Ij 
ambiguous  construction,  could  go  to  setting 
the  Irotestant  Association  to  depart  from  the 
avowed  intention  of  it  ? — ^Not  but  by  a  con- 
struction that  is  directiy  contrary  to  tne  mefx^ 
in*  of  the  words. 

Then  alt.ltts  language  and  eondiiet  wi4 
conformable  to  the  meaning  and  purpose  of 
your  Association  ? — Entirely  so. 

Were  all  these  meetings  open?— 42uite 
open. 

Have  you  ever  had  instances  of  strangers 
coming  among  you  for  any  other  purposer— > 
We  had  Papists  come  among  us^  as  we  sup- 
posed them  to  be,  who  made  disturbances 
amon^t  us. 

Setting  aside  those  times,  were  your  meet* 
ines  always  peaceable  ? — Quite  so. 

Was  any  expression,  hostile  to  govemmenl; 
made  use  of? — No ;  quite  the  reverse.  VfOA 
a  person's  speaking  oisrespectfully  of  the  bi* 


56S] 


fir  High  TrttuoK. 


A.  D.  1781. 


[566 


shops^  he  was  called  tp  order  and  was  silenced ; 
aaa  at  the  next  committee  meeting  a  resolu- 
tion was  made,  that  no  one  should  speak  dis- 
respectfiilly  in  the  least  of  either  one  side  or 
the  other,  anv  further  than  their  names  mizht 
he  mentioned,  as  giving  encouragement  or  ms- 
couragementtoropeiy.  .    « 

How  were  your  charges  at  that  Association 
defrayed  ? — By  voiuntaiy  suhscriptions. 

You  speak  of  the  bill  in  parliament  when 
you  speak  of  Popery,  don't  you  ? — ^Yes. 

You  have  gone  m  your  account  very  dis- 
tinctly through  to  the  t9th  of  May.  Now  state 
what  happened  upon  the  39th  of  May.  ac- 
cording to  the  best  of  your  recollection.  First, 
Were  you  present  at  that  meeting  ? — ^I  was. 

There  was  a  meeting  at  the  Crown  and 
Bolls  before  that  ? — ^Yes,  there  was. 

State  what  passed  there. — ^We  had  a  com- 
mittee meeting  a  few  days  before  Holy  Thurs- 
day. 

What  day  of  the  month  was  it  ? — ^I  cannot 
be  certain;  it  was  the  latter  end  of  April. 

Ccurt,  Holy  Thursday  was  the  4th  of 
May. — A,  There  was  a  meetins  advertised  to 
be  hdd  at  the  Crown  and  RoUs;  but  it  was 
advertised  imperfectly,  and  there  were  but 
lew  people  there.  A  motion  was  made  at  the 
Crown  and  Rolls,  whether  the  body  at  large 
should  go  up  with  the  petition;  that  was 
over-ruled.  Lord  George  Gordon  was  not 
there  then ;  but  at  the  meeting  of  the  com- 
mittee previous  to  that  meeting  at  the  Crown 
and  Rolls,  his  lordship  had  promised  to  be  in 
the  chair  at  the  Crown  and  Rolls,  that  meet- 
ing being  intended  to  be  the  last;  but,  as  I 
said  before,  the  meeting  being  thin  on  ac- 
count of  the  advertisement  being  imperfect, 
it  was  agreed  to  have  a  meeting  on  the  ^th 
of  May  at  Coachmaker'»-hall;  but  the  mo- 
tion that  was  made  at  the  Crown  and  Rolls 
for  the  body  at  laree  to  go  up  with  the  peti- 
tion, was  over-ruled;  it  was  not  made  a  mo- 
tion of,  but  got  over  by  the  gentleman  in  the 
chair,  and  the  gentlemen  round  the  chair ;  it 
was  spoken  to;  the  person  who  made  the 
motion  seemed  satisfiea  with  dropping  it. 

It  was  opposed  and  withdrawn  r — No,  it  was 
floi  opposea,  but  it  was  over-ruled,  and  there 
was  nothing  more  of  it. 

Thai  this  motion  was  not  made  regularly 
to  the  chair,  so  as  to  come  before  the  body  ? — 
No. 

Gfurt,  You  know  whether  the  members 
did  or  did  not  oppose  it? — A,  There  was  a 
great  deal  .of  confusion,  some  were  for  it,  and 
aome  ag^Pst  it,  so  it  ended  that  way. 

And  so  there  being  some  conhision,  the 
meeting  was  adiioumedl — ^Witb  some  confii- 
tion,  wheth^  there  should  be  another  or  not 

MHiat  followed  upon  it? — ^A  committee- 
meeting  followed  immediately  upon  it  and 
Ihs  loraship  hearing  of  the  disputes  ana  coo* 
fusion  that  were  between  the  gentiemen  of 
the  committee  and  the  Association.  The  As- 
smatioa  bad  held  up  tbeir  ba^ds  cootraiy  to 


what  they  meant  relative  to  another  meeting ; 
they  misunderstood  the  motion  from  the 
chair. 

There  was  a>  misunderstanding  ? — ^Yes. 

How  was  that  cleared  up? — His  lordship 
met  us  at  the  next  committee  meeting.  < 

Where  was  that  committee  held  ? — ^In  Beau- 
fort-buildings;  his  lordship  spoj^Le  to  every 
one  of  the  committee  severally,  to  know  every 
one's  opinion,  whether  there  should  be  ano- 
ther public  meeting  or  not,  and  then  having 
spoken  to  every  one  severally,  he  desired  u» 
to  hold  up  our  hands,  which  we  did,  when 
only  the  secretary  held  up  his  against  it ;  and 
the  gentieman  who  was  in  the  chair  did  not 
hold  up  his  hand  either  one  way  or  the  other. 
In  the  mean  time,  his  lordship  received  a  pe- 
tition from  some  of  the  most  respectable  of 
the  Association,  requesting  another  meeting, 
in  conseciuence  of  their  havmg  misundersto<^ 
the  motion  from  the  chair  in  the  last  public 
meeting ;  it  was  then  agreed  there  should  be 
another  meeting. 

Was  there  any  advertisement  that  there 
would  be  another  meeting  ? — ^There  was ;  it 
was  printed  in  the  several  news-papers. 

Do  you  remember  whether  that  was  it? 
(Shewing  the  witness  an  advertisement)^ 
(Looking  at  it )  It  was  to  that  purport  **  A 
meeting  will  be  held  on  U^e  S9th  mstant,  at 
Coachmaker's-hall,  where  I  shall  have  the 
honour  of  attending  you  in  the  chair." 

This  advertisement  being  published,  and 
the  nieeting  of  course,  I  suppose,  being  held  in 
pursuance  of  thb  advertisement,  be  so  good 
as  state  what  happened  at  that  public  meet- 
ing ;  were  you  present  at  it? — ^I  was ;  his  lord- 
ship came  into  a  side  room,  much  about  the 
time  when  it  was  usual  to  take  the  chair ;  his 
lordship  took  out  papers  relative  to  the  busi>< 
siness  of  the  meeting,  apd  read  over  to  us  the 
heads  of  whett  he  proposed  to  lay  before  the 
Association.  After  a  tew  minutes,  his  lordship 
took  the  chair,  the  people  being  very  desirous 
to  see  him,  tuid  have  him  in  the  ch^r.  in- 
forming him  that  it  was  time  he  opened  the 
business. 

>Tell  the  court  andljury  first,  what  passed  at 
tflie^Crown  and  Rolls,  as  to  the  deliberation  of 
tiK  committee  relative  to  postponing  the  pre- 
senting the  petition  till  another  year?— The 
committee  were  almost  unanimous  for  post- 
poning the  presenting  of  the  petition  till  ano- 
ther session  of  parliament 

What  was  the  cause  of  that  opinion  ?— I  am 
not  so  clear  in  that,  being  the  only  ooethat 
was  against  postponing  it ;  fifler  two  or  three 
computtee  meetings,  they  were  so  convinced 
by  his  lordship's  aiguments,  of  tiie  expe* 
diency  of  presenting  it  in  the  present  session^ 
that  thoy  unanimously  agreed  to  it  in  the 
course  of  two  or  three  committee  meetii^^ ; 
but  in  the  course  of  thdr  opposition,  they  went 
so  ^,  as  tq  send  for  the  petition  mc^  his 
lordship's  house,  and  it  was  lodged  int^ 
hands  of  one  of  the  gentlemen  ofthe  topi- 
Witeev 


567] 


il  GEOOBE  III.      Proceedings  against  Lord  George  Gordon^     [568 


How  came  the  committee  unanimously  to 
'  change  their  opinion  upon  that  suhject? 
Court,    Was  it  by  the  prisoner's  arguments 
that  they  were  prevailed  upon  to  bring  it  on, 
or  to  postpone  it? — A,  The  argimients  his 
lordship  and  I  used  with  them.    At  the  com- 
mittee meetings  following,  when  his  lordship 
'  was  not  present,  I  convinced  them  of  the  pro- 
priety of  presenting  it  that  session. 

Lord  Georee  Gordon  having,  agreeable  to 
the  wishes  of  all  the  committee,  except  the 
secretary,  advertised  this  second  meetine,  in 
consequence  of  a  petition  delivered  to  nim 
from  many  of  the  respectable  members  of  the 
body  at  large,  advertised  that  meeting  on  the 
39  th  of  May,  which  is  mentioned  now;  how 
did  lord  George  Gordon  conduct  himself  in 
the  course  of  the  meeting  on  the  S9th  of 
May  ? — His  lordship  read  over  several  papers, 
aAer  shortly  addressinjg  the  people,  and  ex- 
pressing his  happiness  m  seeing  tnem,  and  the 
like. 
Now  you  are  got  to  the  29lh  again  ?— Yes. 
What  papers  ? — I  don't  recollect  particular- 
ly, but  respecting  tiie  business  of  the  Associa- 
tion, letters  and  such  things;  his  lordship  then 
^SS^  ^  resume,  what  he  had  heard  had 
been  made  a  motion  of  in  a  former  meetine  at 
which  he  was  not  present,  alluding  to  the  fast 
meeting  at  the  Crown  and  Rolls,  and  to  the 
motion  that  was  there  made,  whether  the 
body  at  large  should  eo  up  with  the  petition : 
lord  Gordon  said,    "  ne  had  been  mformed 
that  the  Association  were  against  going  up 
with  their  petition,  and  he  &gged  to  know 
from  themselves  if  it  were  so  ?"  upon  that  im- 
mediately from  all  parts  of  the  hall  it  was 
cried  out,  O  no  my  lord,  no  my  lord ;  he  then 
made  the  motion,  and  it  appeared  in  the  As- 
•Bociation  to  be  carried  unammously ;  his  lord- 
ship then  read  over  the  resolves,  and  proposed 
the  time  and  nlace  to  adjourn  that  meeting 
■to,  that  they  snould  adjourn  to  St.  George's- 
-fields,  as  no  place  would  contain  the  number 
that  should  assemble,  «nd  he  proposed,  <<  that 
they  should  be  arranged  in  dinerent  divisions, 
that  his  lordship  might  go  from  one  to  the 
other  and  learn  the  sense  and  determination 
of  the  whole,  respecting  the  mode  of  taking 
up  the  petition,"  informing  us,  "  that  it  had 
been  hinted,  that  it  was  a  very  easy  matter 
•for  a  person  to  sit  down  and  write  4  or  500 
names  to  a  petition,  and  therefore  it  would  be 
necessaqr  that  they  should  appear  to  their 
subscriptions,  and  convince  tne  world  tiiat 
they   were    not  fictitious.''      His    lordship 
^  begged  they  would  dress  themselves  and 
appear  decently  and  veiy  orderly,  and  to  dis- 
tinguish them  from  other  people,  so  that  no 
riots  might  ensue,  be  proposed  ^ey  should 
have  a  cockade  in  their  hats,  Uiat  he  thought 
upon  such  an  occasion  at  least  30,000  might 
attend,  ihat  they  should  meet  at  ten  in  \he 
morning."    Some  one  objected,  that  by  meet- 
ing so  early  they  mieht  get  to  drinkmg ;  in 
answer  to  which  his  fordship  observed,  ''  the 
Protestant  Association  were  avldluak^A  peo- 


ple, and  he  apprehended  no  danger  on  that  ac> 
count"  Some  one  observed,  that  he  thou^t 
such  a  great  number  of  people  being  assent, 
bled  misht  cause  the  miUtarv  to  be  drawn 
out,  his  lordship  answered,  '^  he  did  not  ap- 
prehend the  militaiy  would  be  drawn  out, 
that  they  would  be  all  peaceable  and  orderly 
he  did  not  doubt,  he  desired  them  not  so 
much  as  to  take  sticks  in  their  hands,  that  he 
was  so  far  from  apprehending  any,  tiut  he 
be^ed  he  mieht  be  the  first  that  should  be  in 
danger,  and  begged  if  there  was  any  riotous 
person,  that  the  rest  should  give  him  up,  and 
that  if  he  should  even  strike  any  of  them  not 
to  return  it.  but  to  take  such  person  out,  ^at 
he  might  be  given  up  to  a  constable  and 
taken  away,"  his  lordship  said, "  if  he  himself 
was  at  all  riotous  he  would  wish  to  be  given 
up,  fur  he  thought  it  was  a  proper  spint  for 
Protestants,"  and  to  the  best  of  my  recoiled 
tion  he  used  that  expression,  *^  if  they  smite 
you  on  the  one  cheek,  turn  the  other  uso."  . 

Were  you  present  during  the  whole  time  of 
these  meeting  ?— -I  was. 

And  have  g>iven  the  court  the  general  tenor 
of  his  Iordship*s  conduct  aiad  his  words?-*- 
I  have. 

Whether  you  remember  that  lordGeoive 
Gordon  durine  the  course  of  tliat  night,  msioe 
use  of  any  inSammatoiy  expressions,  or  weie 
all  his  expressions  such  as  you  have  mentioned 
now,  recommending  peace,  decency  and  order  f 
—Quite  so^  much  more  so  than  I  have  ex- 
pressed ;  his  lordship  exhorted  them  repeat- 
edly. 

That  was  the  general  tenor  of  his  behaviour, 
according  with  the  disposiUoaof  the  assem- 
bly that  night,  quite  loyal  and  constitutional  ? 
— Altogether  so,  as  far  as  I  am  a  judge  of 
what  is  constitutional. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Attorney  Gentrd, 

You  said  it  was  determined  to  adjourn  to 
St  George's-fields,  to  divide  there  mto  four 
divisions,  and  then  take  the  sense  of  the 
whole  how  the  mode  of  presenting  the  peti> 
tion  was  to  be  ? — Yes. 

How  many  might  there  be  at  your  meeting 
who  were  exhoited  to  behave  peaceably?— I 
cannot  say. 

Two  hundred  ? — ^I  apprehend  many  moie. 

Three  hundred  ? — Many  more. 

F*our  or  five  hundred  ?— I  don't  Imow  how 
many,  the  rooms  will  hold  a  thousand  I  sup- 
pose or  more,  there  are  laige  galleries^  and 
we  were  tokl  by  those  that  were  without,  that 
many  more  were  without  than  within. 

Did  it  occur  to  you  how  his  lordship  was  to 
consult  40,000  men  upon  the  subject  of  the 
mode  of  presenting  the  petition ;  did  not  you 
Expect  40,000  ?— I  did  not  expect  there  would 
have  been  5,000.-  ,^ 

fiecause  I  have  heard  the  reason  of  quittioc 
the  hall  was,  because  it* would  not  hm 
40,000  men--30,000  loi^  Geoige  expected? 

Was  it  explained  how  tbty  were  W  be  eea* 


569] 


fi^  Hxi^h  Tttiuons 


A.  D.  1781. 


[570 


'suited  in  St.   GeorgeVfields  ?— I  have  ex- 
plained it  already. 

Was  it  by  holding  up  hands,  or  in  what 
way  ?— They  were  divided  into  separate  divi- 
sions for  that  purpose. 

When  they  were  consulted,  was  it  by  hold- 
ins  up  hands,  or  how? — I  was  not  in  the 
fields. 

Then  it  was  not  determined  how  the  peti- 
tion was  to  be  presented  ? — ^No ;  other  gen- 
tlemen who  were  in  the  fields  will  speak  to 
that  point 

Was  it  understood  as  positively  determined 
at  CoachmakerVhal],  that  it  should  be  pre- 
sented to  the  House  on  the  Friday,  or  were 
they  only  to  meet  to  consult  about  the  mode 
of  presenting  it? — ^I  understood  it  was  to  be 
presented  that  day,  but  that  the  mode  of 
taking  it  up  was  to  be  determined  in  the 
fields. 

What  do  you  mean  by  the  mode  ? — ^Whether 
his  lordship  was  to  take  it  up  by  himself,  or 
whether  some  gentlemen  there  were  to  take 
it  up,  or  the  bcKly  at  large ;  for  these  different 
wavs  had  all  been  spoken  upon. 

Why  were  not  you  there? — I  had  parochial 
duty  to  attend. 

Was  that,  upon  yoiur  oath,  the  reason  of 
your  not  attenomg  m  the  fields  ?— It  was. 

Not  because  you  disapproved  of  taking  it 
up  ? — ^I  can't  sa^r  that ;  1  was  one  with  the 
rest  of  the  committee  who  thought  it  was  in- 
expedient. 

Did  all  the  committee  agree  witl\  you  ? — ^I 
cannot  say  that. 

You  said  the  rest  of  the  committee. — Se- 
veral of  them. 

Most  of  them  ? — ^I  believe  so. 

Unanimously? — I  cannot  say. 

Were  you  present  at  a  committee  on  the 
31st  of  May,  when  a  resolution  was  come  to, 
^  that  the  mode  of  presenting  it,  accompanied 
by  the  general  body,  was  contrary  to  the  sense 
of  the  committee'' ? 

Bfr.  KenyoTi.  If  that  was  reduced  into  writ- 
ings I  object  to  the  witness's  giving  parol 
testimony  of  it. 

Attorney  General,  Then  I  ask  you,  whether 
some  of  the  committee  did  notdisapprove  of 
presenting  it  by  the  general  body  ? 

Mr.  Kenyon,  Then  I  must  object  to  that 
question,  as  it  respects  a  written  paper. 

Court,  You  may  ask  him  wnether  they 
were  unanimous. 

Attorney  General,  Then  you  disapproved 
<»f  its  bdng  accompanied  by  the  geneial  body, 
did  you  not  ? — A,  What  I  aid  b  written  down, 
mydiesent 

Court,  Was  my  lord  George  Gordon's  mo- 
tion upon  the  i9th  of  May  in  writing;  be- 
cause you  have  been  giving  m  evidence  some- 
thing supposed  to  be  In  writing.  Was  the 
motion  put  into  writing  or  not?— -J.  I  really 
cannot  say. 

'  Attontey  General,  Was  the  adjouniment 
of  the  Association  to  St.  George's-fields  put 
into  writine  ?  I  fimcy  idl  their  actions  are  in 
writing.— J.  Several  of  them  aie. 


Court,  Most  undoubtedly  you  cannot  ask 
to  the  contents  of  any  thing  that  is  in  writing, 
without  producing  the  writmg  itself 

Attorney  General.  I  ask  you,  whether  you 
did  not,  in  your  opinion  and  judgment,  dis- 
approve of  going  up  with  this  petition,  accom- 
panied by  the  general  body  }—A,  Yes. 

Then,  when  it  was  determined  before  the 
2nd  of  June  to  go  up  with  the  ajeneral  body 
you  disapproved  of  it  f— I  did  not  know  before 
the  2nd  of  June  that  it  was  to  be;  it  was 
spoken  of  in  the  side-room  a  few  minutes 
bicfore  his  lordship  came  to  take  the  chair, 
that  his  lordship  intended  to  resume  that 
subject  that  had  been  spoken  to  in  the  Old 
Crown  and  Rolls  at  the  last  public  meeting, 
and  to  know  from  the  Association  at  large, 
whether  they  thought  it  proper  to  go  up  with 
it  at  large;  and  then  it  was  that  I  and  some 
others  thought  it  would  be  inexpedient. 

Whether  that  was  not  the  reason  with  you 
for  not  attending  it,  because  you  disapproved 
of  it? — ^No;  I  luidbarochial  duty. 

Did  any  other  of  the  committee  attend  that 
you  know  of? — I  don't  know. 

Court,  What  was  the  parochial  duty  you 
had  to  attend? — A,  Reading  prayers;  it  i^as 
on  a  Friday. 

What  was  the  hour  of  prayers  ?— At  elevea 
o'clock.  I  have  generally  children  to  bap^ 
tize,  and  frequency  pensioners  to  bury,  that 
are  buried  alwa;^s  immediately  after  church. 

After  church  in  the  morning  service  ? — Yes. 

Then  you  would  have  been  time  enough  ? 
— Not  to  have  gone  to  the  fields. 

Attorney  General.  But  you  nught  have 
taken  the  opportunity  to  have  gone  upon  so 
important  an  occasion?— ^1.  I  make  a  con- 
science of  doing  my  duty. 

Did  it  not  occur  to  vou  that  a  petition  pre- 
sented in  June  could  not,  in  the  ordinary 
course  of  proceeding,  produce  a  bill  that  ses- 
sion ofjparliament?— I  knew  if  it  had  been 
as  hastily  gone  through  as  the  Bill  presented 
by  sir  George  Savile  was,  tliat  it  might  have 
been  easily  done  in  that  session. 

How  long  was  that  Bill  going  through  ? — ^I 
can  only  speak  as  to  report.  Upon  the  in- 
formation I  have  had,  I  believe  we  shall  find 
it  received  the  ^yal  assent  in  as  short  a  time 
after  it  was  presented,  as  our  KU  would,  if  it 
had  been  received  upon  the  29th  of  May. 

You  did  not  suppose  that  the  session  would 
break  up  the  day  after  the  king's  birUi-day  ? 
— ^I  did  not  suppose  so. 

Which  of  the  members  was  it  who  objected 
to  the  assembling  so  great  a  number  m  St 
George's-fields  with  cockades,  and  that  he 
thought  it  might  endanger  the  adling  qut  of 
the  military  ? — ^I  do  not  Imow. 

David  Lord  Viscount  Stormont  sworn. 

Exao^ned  by  Mr.  Kenyon. 

'  During  the  course  of  the  riot  which  hap- 
pened in  the  month  of  June  last,  did  your 
lordship  see  lord  George  Gordon  at  Buclung- 
ham-hou9e  ?-^I  did. 


*713 


21  GEORGE  m.      Proceeimgi  agaitui  Lard  George  Gordon,      [572 


Does  your  lordship  recollect  what  day  he 
was  there? — On  Wednesday  the  7th  of  June, 
between  ten  and  eleven  in  the  morning,  as  to 
the  hour,  to  the  best  of  my  recollection,  the 
day  I  am  certain  of 

What  was  the  business  that  brought  his 
lordship  there } — I  will  state  exactly  the  whole 
to  the  oest  of  my  recollection ;  I  was  attend- 
ing his  majesty  at  the  QueenVhouse,  with  se- 
^  veral  of  his  majesty's  other  confidential  ser- 
vants, on  Wednesday  the  7th  oT  June  in  the 
•  morning,  at  the  hour  I  mentioned;  a  page 
came  and  scratched  at  the  door,  I  went  out 
by  order,  when  he  said,  that  the  prisoner  at 
the  bar  was  at  the  gate  of  the  Queen's-house, 
desirine,  I  think,  to  see  his  majesty ;  I  went 
out  wiui  another  noble  lord,  and  gave  direc- 
tions, that  lord  George  Gordon  should  be 
brought  into  a  room  in  the  colonade.  I  then 
went  to  him  to  ask  what  his  lordship  desired 
or  wanted ;  his  answer  to  me  was,  tnat  <<  he 
desired  to  see  the  king,  because  he  could  be 
of  essential*'  or  '^  material  service,"  or  **  do 
great  service  in  suppressing  the  riots/'  I 
went  with  this  message,  and  delivered  it 
exactly  to  the  king,  whom  I  was  then  attend- 
ing, as  I  have  observed,  with  several  of  his 
confidential  servants,  and  the  answer  I  deli- 
vered to  his  lordship  was  this :  ^*  It  is  impos- 
sible for  the  king  to  see  lord  George  Goraon, 
until  he  has  given  sufficient  proofs  of  his  alle^ 
glance  and  loyalty,  by  employing  those  means 
which  he  says  he  has  in  nis  power,  to  quell 
the  disturbances,  and  restore  peace  to  this 
Capital."  That  was  all  I  had  to  say  to  his 
lordship ;  his  lordship  to  that  answered,  that 
*^  if  he  might  presume  to  reply,  he  would  say, 
that  his  best  endeavours  should  be  u^d"  or 
"  employed,''  or  to  that  purpose,  that  is,  to 
the  best  of  my  remembrance,  the  whole  that 
passed. 

Lord  Gepree  Gordon  wishes  to  know,  whe- 
ther your  lordship  is  accurate  as  to  the  words  ? 
-^I  am,  I  think,  most  particularly  accurate  to 
every  word  that  I  used,  and  venr  acairate  as 
to  the  strict  and  exact  sense  of  the  words  used 
by  lord  George  Gordon ;  I  cannot  sneak  with 
the  same  accuracy,  as  to  the  words  used  by 
anoU)er,  as  I  can  to  the  words  used  by  myself! 

His  lordship  said  that  he  would  use  his  best 
endeavours } — ^The  answer  I  gave  him,  was  to 
be  considered  as  final,  to  tluit  request  made 
b}r  lord  George  Gordon ;  then  he  said,  if  he 
might  presume  to  reply,  his  reply  was,  that 
his  best  endeavours  should  be  used. 

Mr.  Thomas  Etans  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Kei^on, 

I  believe  you  were  in  St.  George^s-fields  on 
the  fid  of  June  ?— I  was. 

There  was  a  very  Itige  a^^mbly  of  people 
there? — ^Yes.  there  was. 

Have  you  oeen  a  member  of  the  Protestant 
Association? — I  do  not  understand  what  you. 
miean  by  a  member,  I  was  a  petitioner. 

There  were  a  great  muviber  of  people  there 

t 


of  the  same  description,  wlio  were  petitioners  f 
— Yes. 

When  they  came  there,  had  they  any 
weapons  or  sticks  ? — ^I  did  not  go  alcng  witn 
them,  nor  did  I  see  any  thing  of  the  kind. 

When  you  were  there,  did  you  give  any  in- 
formation to  lord  George  Gordon  as  to  any  ap- 
prehensions?— ^I  did.  On  the  2d  of  June 
1780,  between  ten  and  eleven  o'clock,  I  was 
coming  in  a  coach  through  Bridge-street 
Westminster,  with  three  friends ;  I  was  going 
to  St.  Georee's-fields,  the  coach  was  stopped 
by  a  Mr.  amith,  who  keeps  the  Guildhall, 
Westminster,  whom  I  knew  very  well ;  Mr. 
Smith  asked  me  if  we  were  going  to  the 
fields,  I  told  him  we  were ;  he  said  he  had 
something  of  great  consequence  to  communi- 
cate to  loni  George  Gordon,  for  the  committee 
of  the  Protestant  Association ;  being  asked 
what  it  was,  he  told  me  he  had  been  credibly 
informed,  that  there  were  a  number  of  jour- 
neymen weavers  from  Spital-fields— — • 

Court.  That  is  not  evidence. — A.  Havin? 
received  this  information  from  Mr.  Smith,  I 
told  him  I  did  not  know  lord  George  Gordon, 
but  I  would  endeavour  to  see  hun  in  the 
fields;  upon  entering  the  fields,  I  saw  a 
division  formed,  which^  upon  enquiry,  was  the 
Scotch  division,  and  m  the  centre  was  lord 
George  Gordon ;  I,  and  one  of  my  fi-iends  eot 
out  of  the  coach,  and  got  to  the  rinfl;  with 
great  difficulty,  after  making  an  apofogj^  to 
his  lordship  for  addressing  him,  I  told  bun  I 
had  iust  been  informed  bv  Mr.  Smith  at 
Guilahall,  that  there  would  be  a  riot  in  West- 
minster, provided  more  than  thirty  or  forty 
attempted  to  go  to  the  House  of  Commons 
with  tne  petition,  and  I  asked  his  lordship  if 
he  meant  that  the  whole  body  was  to  attend 
him  ?  he  made  a  reply  "  by  no  means,  by  no 
means."  I  asked  his  lordship  what  was  his 
plan,  he  ssud  '^  he  intended  to  go  to  the 
House  alone,  and  some^me  afler  he  had  been 
there,  the  petition  was  to  follow  him  to  the 
lobby  of  the  House  of  Commons^  and  there 
to  wait  till  he  came  out  to  receive  it.''  J  told 
his  lordship  I  was  exceedingly  glad  of  it,  for 
by  that  means  the  enemy  wouldbe  prevented 
from  hurting  the  cause ;  I  asked  him,  whether 
he  would  give  me  leave  to  tell  the  people  so  ; 
he  said  **  with  all  his  heart.''  I  imm^iately 
went  to  that  side  of  the  ring  next  me  and  tora 
the  people,  that  they  were  to  remain  in  the 
fields,  my  lord  George  Gordon  intending  to 
go  alone.  I  rememtor  my  lord  called  a  per-« 
son  to  him  who  seemed  to  be  in  a  Scotch 
dress,  I  thought  to  {;ive  that  information  to 
him,  I  went  to  my  friends  and  told  them  what 
I  had  done,  then  I  saw  the  spot  I  had  just  left 
was  all  in  confusion,  I  drove  my  coadi  up  to 
the  obelisk,  being  informed  by  a  gentleman 
they  were  formins  divisions  up  at  the  other 
ena  of  the  field,  when  I  came  th^^  I  saw 
the  people  to  my  great  surprize,  instead  of 
forming  divisions,  were  in  a  marchii^  line  m 
in  a  row^  with  tiiieir  iac^  towards  the  Sorougl^ 
I  (ot  out  of  siy  coach,  1  weat  to  then  lura 


573] 


fir  High  Tttttson* 


ssked  them  wlmt  they  were  going  to  do,  they 
saidy  ''  they  w^e  gping  to  march  through  the 
ct^,"  I  told  tl^em,  they  must  not  stir  out  of 
the  fields,  for  I^liad  lust  left  lord  Geoise  Gor- 
don, who  had  told  me  he  intended  to  go 
alone,  and  informed  them  what  Mr.  Smith 
had  told  me,  that  I  was  sure  there  would  be  a 
riot  if  more  than  thirty  or  forty  people  went 
to  the  House ;  they  made  answer,  **  I  need 
not  be  afraid  of  that,  for  they  were  determined 
to  make  none."  As  soon  as  they  had  told  me 
that,  a  gentleman  came  up  and  sud,  as  you, 
Sk,  are  so  zealous  in  the  cause,  you  had  better 
go  over  Blackfriars-bridg^,  and  meet  the  As- 
sociation for  London,  and  bring  them  back 
again ;''  I  said  that  was  a  tiling  I  could  not 
do,  I  was  very  fatigued,  and  I  went  to  the 
coach  and  drove  directly  home. 

IM  you  see  them  at  Charing-cross  ? — I  saw 
them  no  where  else. 

Cross-exammed  by  Mr.  Attorney  GeneraL 

Lord  George  Gordon  saidy  he  was  to  go  to 
the  House  alone,  and  the  petition  was  to  be 
brou^t  to  him  to.  the  lobby } — ^Yes. 

By  whom  it  was  to  be  brought  you  did  not 
understand  ? — ^No. 

Did  you  see  the  petition  i — Yes ;  before  I 
nw  lord  George  Gordon,  I  saw  the  petition 
upon  a  man's  head  in  one  of  the  rings,  I  be- 
lieve the  rine  of  the  Scotch,  division. 

Then  you  do  not  know  whether  the  London 
division  carried  it  ? — ^No. 

Lord  George  Gordon  did  not  know  you  ^--> 
He  did  not,  wad  I  had  never  seen  his  lordship 
Vefbre. 

Mr.  John  Spinnage  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Ertkine. 

What  are  yoo?-^!  am  in  no  profession  at 
all. 

Were  you  at  Palace^yard  on  the  9d  of  June  f 
—I  went  in  a  coach  with  a  friend  or  two 
afeout  eleven  o'clock.  Mr.  Smith,  the  keeper 
of  the  Guildhall,  Westminster,  when  we 
turned  into  Bridge-street,  came  up  to  the 
coAch,  he  asked,  if  we  were  going  to  St. 
George's-fields,  I  said  we  were;  he  asked  if 
we  knew  lord  George  Gordon,  if  we  did,  he 
should  be  glad  we  would  speak  to  his  lordship 
nd  tell  him— 

Court,  Come  to  what  yow  said  to  lord 
George  Gwtdon^ — A.  I  went  and  said,  ^  I 
hope  your  lordship  doeflf  not  mean  to  take  any 
naft  of  this  body  of  people  over  Westminster- 
turide^"  hb  lordship  said,  '*  no,  by  no  means 
in  the  world,  I  mean  to  go  to  the  House 
aloiie.^'  I  don't  recollect  tiiat  I  had  any  far- 
ther conversation  with  his  lordship. 

Who  were  in  the  coach  with  you?— Mr. 
IBvans  was  one. 

In  what  condition  were  the  people  you  saw 
in  St  George's-fields  ? — ^I  saw  them  in  a  very 
quiet  peaceable  state. 

Were  there  any  people  in  Puli%ment-street 
when  you  came  away?^  dton't  know,  we 
Ame  away  vei;  soon. 


A,D.  1781.  [574 

Had  the  people  in  the  fields  any  weapons 
or  any  sticks  ? — I  saw  none. 

Were  thev  well  dressed,  decent  in  their 
apparel  ?— All  that  I  saw  in  general,  were. 

Far  from  being  the  rabble  r— Quite  so. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Attorney  GeneraL 

They  were  in  their  best  clothes? — They 
were  all  very  decent. 

You  saw  the  Scotch  body? — ^They  mi^t 
be,  for  what  I  know.  / 

William  Smith  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Kenyon. 

You  are  the  keeper  of  Guildhall,  West- 
minster ? — ^Yes,  I  am. 

Do  you  remember  Friday,  the  2nd  of  June  ? 
—Yes. 

About  what  time  did  the  Protestant  Asso* 
ciation  come  into  the  neighbourhood  of 
Guildhall,  Westminster? — At  pretty  near  one 
o'clock,  I  believe. 

Before  they  came  there,  did  you  at  any 
hour,  and  what  hour  in  the  day  see  any  other 
collection  of  people  there? — No,  only  one 
Walter  Russell,  wtio  said,  he  was  the  keeper 
of  the  Salutation  tavern  in  Newgate-street, 
he  was  one  put  upon  the  sheriffs  jury,  he 
came  down  at  a  quarter  past  ten,  and  said,  I 
am  afraid  here  will  be  a  very  great  disturb- 
ance. 

Did  you  yourself  see  any  of  the  circum- 
stances he  observed  to  you  ? — ^No,  I  knew 
nothing  of  it. 

Mrs.  EHxabeth  Whittingham  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Kenyon, 

You  were  in  St  GeorgeVfields  on  the  2nd 
of  June? — I  was. 

You  were  I  believe  in  a  coach  ? — ^I  was. 

Do  you  recollect  lord  George  Gordon's 
coming  to  the  coach  ?— Very  well,  he  came* 
to  Uie  coach  ready  to  faint,  /and  asked  leave 
to  come  in,  which  we  immediately  gave  him, 
he  was  very  near  fainting  away,  he  did  get 
into  the  coach. 

Did  you  continue  the  coach  there,  or  drive 
away  ? — ^We  continued  a  few  minutes.  Some 
gentlemen  surrounded  the  coach  and  we 
could  not  get  off,  they  desired  they  might 
attend  lord  George  Gordon,  my  lord  begged 
**  tliey  would  not,  for  that  he  would  have  no 
help,  no  assistance  at  all,  he  was  very  well ;" 
they  said,  *'  pray  let  us  attend  you  to  the 
House,"  he  said,  "  no,  by  no  means,  I  shall 
be  greatly  oblieed  to  you,  gentlemen,  if  you 
wilfsdl  go  back,"  for  h^  did  not  choose  to  be 
attendeaby  tiiem. 

What  did  he  do,  did  he  go  without  the  Pe- 
tition ?«-The  coach  set  ofi  and  set  his  lord- 
ship down  at  the  House  of  Commons. 

Without  this  multitude  of  people?— Yes^ 
without  any  body  with  him. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Attorney  General, 

Lord  George   Gordon  was  fatigued   and  ' 
ready  to  faint,  and  they  be^ed  to  attend 


575] 


21  GEORGE  III.      Proceedings  againd  Lmrd  George  Gordon,      [570 


bim  ?— Yes,  when  he  was  going  to  the  House, 
he  desired  to  be  excused,  he  wanted  no  at- 
tendance. 

How  many  might  there  be  of  them,  three 
or  tour  ?— No,  30  or  40. 

Alexander  Johntton  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Ertkine. 

Were  you  in  Palace-yard  on  tlie  Sud  of 
June? — ^Yes. 

How  early  in  the  morning  were  you  there? 

^I  was  not  there  till  between  twelve  and 

one  o'clock. 

Were  there  a  great  many  people  there  at 
that  time? — ^I  came  there  with  th^  proces- 
sion of  the  Protestant  Association. 

Did  you  find  anv  persons  there  before  you  ? 
^A  great  many  thousands  before  us  I  sup- 
pose, 1  was  in  the  last  of  the  London  Asso- 
ciation. 

Did  you  find  any  others  besides  the  Asso- 
ciation there  before  you  ? — Not  at  that  time. 

Did  you  go  along  quietly  and  peaceably  ? — 

Yes. 

Were  there  any  disturbances  of  anv  kind  ? 
— Not  the  least,  theire  was  nothing  but  good 
harmony  and  peace,  the  best  of  peace.  I 
went  from  my  own  house  to  St.  George's- 
fields  about  nine  in  the  momine. 

Did  you  see  lord  George  Goraon  there  ? — ^I 
did. 

Did  you  hear  him  speak  there? — No,  I 
was  not  near  enough  to  hear  him  speak. 

Were  there  any  disturbances  in  St.  George  V 
fields  then  ?— None. 

Did  you  see  the  disturbances  in  Palace- 
yard  afterwards  in  that  afternoon  ? — I  did. 

Were  the  disturbances  committed  by  those 
people  that  you  had  seen  in  St.  Georgc's- 
nelos  ?--No,  I  can  tell  the  whole ;  I  went  to 
St.  George's-fields  M  nine  o'clock  in  the  morn- 
ing, I  came  from  St.  GeorgeVfields  to  Pa- 
lace-yard, I  believe  between  twelve  and  one 
o'clock,  I  staid  there  not  more  than  ten  mi- 
nutes, then  I  went  with  18  or  20  more  of  my 
acquaintance  into  the  Strand,  afler  dinn^  we 
smoked  a  pipe  till  between  six  and  seven  at 
night,  then  word  came  to  the  house  we  were 
at,  that  there  was  a  disturbance  in  Palace- 
yard,  that  they  were  stopping  every  carriage, 
that  the  carnages  could  neither  pass  nor  re- 
pass; the  company  with  me  said,  we  had 
netter  go  down  to  Palace-yard,  and  try  to 
quell  the  mob  if  possible,  I  told  them  they 
were  no  friends  to  our  cause,  and  we  had 
better  stay  where  we  were,  but  they  insisted 
we  shoum  «;o,  and  try  what  wc  could  do; 
through  their  persuasions  I  went,  and  when  I 
came  mto  Patiiamentrstreet,  I  saw  a  coach, 
there  were  about  20  boys  and  five  or  six  men 
stopping  the  carriage,  I  said  to  my  friends 
who  were  with  me,  "  you  see  how  it  is,  I  told 
Tou  how  it  would  be."  There  were  about  80 
boys,  not  one  of  them  above  16  or  18  years  of 
juge,  I  suppose,  and  four  or  five  men  stopping 
the  carriages ;  I  then  went  over  to  the  coach,  I 
look  hold  of  a  man  by  the  breast  that  was 


next  the  coocb-door,  I  asked  him  who  gave 
him  authority  to  stop  that  carnage  ?  he  said, 
**  he  had  eot  authority ;"  I  askra  hun  from 
whom  ?  He  said,  ^  it  was  no  matter  from 
whom,  he  had  got  aiithoiity ;"  then  I  told 
him  I  had  got  authority  to  take  him :  I  took 
him  Iw  the  Dreast,  and  gave  him  in  charge  to 
one  of  the  gentlemen  that  were  along  with 
me,  and  as  soon  as  I  did  that,  the  rest  ran  all 
aw^,  and  left  the  carriage  to  itself.  I  in- 
tended to  give  the  man  into  custody,  but  the 
gentlemen  whp  were  with  me,  persuaded  me 
to  let  him  go,  which  I  did,  and  the  carnage 
went  on. 

Whether  the  set  of  people  you  saw  making 
that  riot,  were  quite  a  different  set  of  people 
firom  the  Protestant  Association  ?— They  were 
a  set  of  boys,  quite  a  set  of  pick-pockets. 

Did  the;^  i^pear  like  those  of  the  Protes- 
tant Association  you  had  seen  in  the  mom^ 
ing } — No ;  not  in  the  least  appearance  like 
them ;  no  such  thing. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Attorney  General, 

How  manv  boys  were  there? — I  suppose 
there  might  be  18  or  80  lads,  about  16  or  U 
years  of  age. 

Did  you  not  know  that  the  body  of  your 
Association  was  at  the  House  of  CommoDS? 
— ^I  did  not  know  but  that  eveTy  one  was  dis- 
persed. 

So  you,  fi-om  mere  kipdness,  came  out  of 
the  Strand,  to  quell  a  riot  in  Partiament-stieet, 
without  an  idea  that  the  Protestant  Associa- 
tion was  there  ? — I  did,  upon  honour. 

Court,  Had  the  Protestant  A8S0ciatk>n  left 
the  House  of  Commons  between  seven  and 
eight  o'clock  ?— ^1. 1  don't  know  whether  they 
had  or  not;  I  had  not  seen  the  House  of 
Commons,  I  iiad  not  seen  the  Protestant  As- 
sociation, from  half  an  hour  after  twelve 
o'clock.  I  then. came  down  to  Palace-yard, 
they  were  stopping  every  carriage  that  was 
there,  I  went  over  to  a  carriage  which  an  eld 
gentleman  was  in,  he  said,  he  was  as  serious 
in  the  cause  as  any  one  of  us,  and  besged  tb^ 
would  let  him  pass;  I  went  and  tooknold  of 
the  man  at  the  coach  door,  and  asked  him 
who  gave  him  authority  to  stop  the  canisge, 
he  said  **  he  had  authority  to  stop  every  car- 
riage ;"  I  held  him  by  the  breast,  and  several 
about  him  got  hold  of  me,  and  held  me  by  my 
hain  and  I  was  a  week  afler  that  before  I 
could  straighten  my  neck. 

^'   Alexander  Frater  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Kenyan. 

Were  you  in  St  Geor ge's-fields  on  the  «d 
of  June  ?— I  was 
You  were  one  of  the  Protestant  Association? 

— I  signed  the  petition. 

Were  you  on  the  Westminster  side  before 
the  petiUoners  came  there  from  London?— 
Yes.    I  went  that  way  to  the  fields. 

Were  there  any  appearances  of  people  being . 
collected  on  the  Westminster  side  of  tne, 


677] 


fa/r  Hi^  Treasm. 


A.D.  1781. 


[578 


bridge^  before  you  went  to  St.  George's-fieUs  ? 
— Avenrmany. 

Of  what  descriptioD?  Were  these  people 
|ttrt  of  the  petitioners,  or  any  oUiers  ?— I  did 
not  believe  tney  were.  I  saw  several  bodies 
of  peopky  sometimes  a  dozen  or  so,  collected 
together  on  the  bridge :  it  was  a  very  hot  day, 
I  went  close  to  them,  and  asked  them,  "  Do 
you  belong  to  the  Association?''  as  they  had 
all  blue  cockades. 

Did  they  appear  to  you  to  be  of  the  body  of 
petitioners? — ^No,  they  dkl  not,  and  ma^y  of 
them  were  in  liquor. 

This  was  before  the  petitioners  arrived 
there  ? — ^This  was  about  eleven  o'clock. 

What  time  of  day  was  it  before  the  peti- 
tioners came  to  Palace-yard  ? — ^At  the  end  of 
Dowodng-street  I  spoke  with  the  Protestant 
Association. 

What  time  was  that  ? — Between  three  and 
lour  o'clock.  These  people  were  going  along 
the  bridge  promiscuously  in  the  greatest  con- 
fusion, 1  suppose  100  of  them  were  passing 
continually  both  from  the  Borough  ana  lo  the 
Boroii^h. 

When  you  asked  them  if  they  were  of  the 
Association,  what  answer  did  they  make  ? — 
One  with  a  great  slick,  who  seemed  to  be  m 
liquor,  held  up  his  stick  and  said,  '*  No,  damn 
it,  this  is  all  our  Association." 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Attorney  Gineral. 

These  people  had  all  blue  cockades  in  their 
hats?-— Yes. 

And  some  of  them  were  going  into  the 
fields,  where  the  Association  assembled? — 
Ifes.  But  most  of  them  were  coming  over 
the  bridge  towards  Westminster. 

But  ymX  became  of  them  you  don't  know? 
— 'So.  I  returned  about  one  from  the  fields, 
and  as  soon  as  I  got  to  the  end  of  Parliament- 
street,  (before  I  got  home)  the  riot  was  begun. 
Several  cartiaees  were  stopped,  and  some  of 
them  ¥rere  puffing  the  people  out  of  their  car- 
riages, and  were  writing  upon  the  carriages, 
No  Popery. 

When  was  that? — At  one  o'clock;  at  the 
end  of  Downing-street,  in  ParliamentHstreet ; 
the  omfiision  began  principally  about  the  epd 
of  that  street. 

Omrt,  Had  they  blue  cockades  ? — A,  They 
had. 

Sir  Philip  Jenningt  CUrke  sworn. 

Examined  by  Mr.  Kenyan, 

Were  you  in  St.  George's-fields  on  Friday 
the  3d  of  June? — ^Yes;  that  morning  I  had 
Mme  business  at  the  Temple,  I  ordered  n^ 
horaes^  down  to  Blackfriars-bridge,  and  rode 
across  St.  Geor^'s-fields  to  Westminster. 

About  what  tune  was  it  you  rode  across  the 
fields  ?— -I  suppose  about  one  o'clock,  or  be- 
tween one  and  two ;  I  cannot  be  particular  to 
aonarter  of  an  hour. 

Were*  the  petitioners  assembled  in  the  fields 
Et  that  timer— -There  was  a  vast  number  of 
peo^  upon  the  road,  and  many  coming  back 

VOL.  XXI. 


from  the  fields,  for  the  great  body  of  them  had 
marched  away  to  the  city;  but  I  met  vast 
numbers  returning  to  the  fields,  and  many 
were  gpins  from  the  fields,  and  there  were 
great  numbers  in  the  fields. 

Did  you  take  notice  of  the  persons  you  saw 
in  the  fields  ? — I  took  very  particular  notice  of 
them. 

What  kind  of  cla.ss  of  people  did  they  ap- 
pear'to  be  ?--The  better  sort  of  tradesmen; 
they  were  all  well-dressed  decent  sort  of  peo- 
ple; I  stopped  in  the  fields  and  conversed 
with  a  great  number  of  them;  I  asked  them 
what  was  the  occasion  of  their  assembling  ? 
there  was  a  great  number  of  different  parties, 
for  I  rode  close  by  the  side  of  the  foot-path. 
All  that  I  conversed  with  told  me,  that  their 
desire  was  that  there  should  be  a  stop  put  to 
public  preachinc  and  pubhc  teaching;  that 
was  the  whole  of  what  they  said  to  me ;  they 
were  all  exceeding  quiet  and  orderly,  and  very 
civil,  and  ^ey  had  no  particular  reason  to  be 
so  to  me,  because  I  never  put  a  blue  cockade 
into  my  hat 

You  afterwards  went  to  attend  your  duty  in 
parliament  ?— No ;  I  rode  across  Westmin- 
ster-bridge ;  I  went  home,  took  off  my  boots, 
dressed  myself,  and  then  came  down  to  the 
House  of  Commons.  1  found  a  vast  number  of 
people  in  going  firom  Westminster  up  to  the 
other  part  of  the  town,  and  a  great  number  of 
people  when  I  came  down  to  tne  lobby. 

Did  you  take  notice  of  these  people  you 
found  in  the  town  and  in  the  lobby  ? — I  did. 

Were  they  of  the  same  description  of  people 
you  saw  in  St.  George's-fields  ? — My  own  opi- 
nion was,  that  the  people  who  were  first  in 
the  lobby  were  not  the  same  who  were  there 
very  late  m  the  evening ;  those  there  late  in ' 
the  evening  were  a  lower  kind  of  people,  more 
a  mob  of  blackguards. 

As  you  went  to  the  House  of  Commons  did 
you  observe  any  appearance  about  Charing- 
cross  ? — I  met  thousands  of  people  returning 
firom  Westminster,  between  Westminster-haQ 
and  Charing-cross,  both  sides  of  the  way  as 
full  as  they  could  crowd. 

Were  those  people  of  the  same  description 
with  what  you  saw  in  St.  George's-fields? — 
They  seemed  the  same  kind  of  people,  who 
were  returning  from  Uience,  that  I  had  seen 
in  St.  George's-fields. 

And  when  you  came  down  to  Westminster 
you  saw  a  crowd  of  people  of  another  descrip- 
tion?— ^Yes.  Those  I  saw  in  the  lobby  in  the 
aflemoon,  neither  fiom  their  appearance  nor 
behaviour  seemed  the  same  sort  of  people  I 
had  seen  in  St.  George's-fields. 

Did  you  hear  the  conversation  which  lord 
George  Gordon  held  to  the  people  in  the 
lobby?— I  heard  some  of  it.  I  arcidentally 
went  by  the  gallery  which  looks  over  the  lobby 
two  or  three  times,  and  did  hear  part  of  the 
conversation,  but  iJie  stench  from  the  bottom 
was  so  bad,  nobody  would  have  chosen  to 
have  staid  long. 

What  was  the  conversation  you  heard  ?  - 
8  P 


579] 


21  GEORGE  III.      Proceedings  against  Lord  George  Gordon^      [580 


The  chief  I  recollect  was,  I  did  hear  lord 
George  say,  "  the  member  for  Bristol  is  now 
speaking,  he  is  no  friend  to  your  petition; 
but  take  notice  I  give  you  no  advice,  unless  it 
is  that  you  shoula  be  temperate  and  firm." 

Court,  What  time  of  night  was  this  ? — A,  I 
think  not  very  late  in  the  evening;  but  I 
heard  him  repeat  those  words,  '  temperate 
*  and  firm,'  more  than  once  in  other  parts  of 
the  evening. 

Cross-exatnined  by  Mr.  Attorney  General. 

If  you  recollect,  this  speech  of  Mr.  Burke's 
was  pretty  early? — ^It  was. 

Because,  if  you  recollect,  all  speaking  in  the 
House  was  prevented  for  many  hours. — Yes, 
it  was  after  that. 

You  know  the  House  could  not  divide,  the, 
lobby  being  full  ? — ^Yes,  it  was  so. 

You  heard  lord  George  say  to  the  people, 
be  temperate  and  firm,  and  that  Mr.  Burke 
was  no  friend,  but  he  gave  them  no  advice  ? 
— That  was  the  substance. 

•  You  heard  him  tcU  them  to  be  temperate 
and  firm? — ^Yes,  in  the  latter  part  of  the 
evening. 

You  think  this  bod)r  was  gradually  chang- 
ing. At  what  time  in  the  evening  did  you 
obser\'e  any  change? — I  did  not  see  them 
only  upon  looking  over  the  eallery. 

Had  they  cockades  as  well  as  the  others  ? — 
I  believe  they  had. 

Did  you  hear  what  the  people  s£ud  to  my 
lord  George  ? — 'So ;  I  heard  very  little  of  it. 
i  told  you  before  there  was  such  an  intolera- 
ble stench  in  looking  over  the  gallery,  that  I 
did  not  think  it  worm  my  while  to  stay  there 
any  longer. 

Did  you  not  apply  to  lord  George  Gordon 
to  get  nim  to  sp^Jc  to  the  people  and  to  send 
them  away  ? — I  did  not ;  I  was  for  dismissing 
ourselves.  I  was  of  opinion  they  might  have 
done  it  with  great  security. 

What  time  was  that? — At  the  beginning, 
when  the  House  would  not  go  on,  when  they 
stopped  the  business. 

Did  you  attend  the  House  of  Commons 
again  on  the  Tuesday  ? — ^I  did. 

Was  there  not  a  mob  there  on  the  Tuesday 
evening? — ^Yes,  I  think  so. 

Do  not  you  recollect  that  there  was  ? — Do 
you  mean  in  the  lobby  ? 

No.  Do  not  you  recollect  there  were  sol- 
diers there  on  the  Tuesday  to  keep  them  out  ? 
-—I  think  the  soldiers  were  not  there  at  first, 
if  I  recollect  right. 

Did  you  see  lord  George  Gordon  on  the 
Tuesday? — I  think  he  was  at  the  House. 

Did  you  see  him  in  the  evening,  when  the 
House  broke  up  ? — I  think  it  was  the  Tuesday 
night  he  went  home  in  a  coach  with  sir  James 
I/)wther  and  me. 

You  went  home  in  a  different  manner  on 
Tuesday  from  what  you  did  on  the  Friday ; 
you  were  not  drawn  by  such  animals  on  Friday 
as  drew  you  on  Tuesday  ? 

Court.  What  were  the  ammals  ^ 


How  were  you  and  my  lord  George  re* 
ceived  and  treated  by  the  mob  on  Tuesday 
night  ? — ^Would  you  have  me  tell  you  all  that 
passed  that  evemng,  after  we  came  out  of  tht 
House  ? 

Mr.  Kenyon,  I  have  no  objection. — A,  A 
great  number  of  members  came  out  together, 
we  were  walking  away  home,  I  happened 
when  we  got  through  the  guaitls,  to  be  very 
near  lord  George  Gordon;  when  we  got 
through  the  guards,  the  people  be^n  to 
crowaupon  us,  I  said,  "  come,  lord  George, 
you  must  be  my  protector.''  The  reason  of 
my  saying  that  to  nim  was,  that  on  the  Friday 
night,  I  believe,  I  was  one  who  was  in  a  veiy 
small  division  for  entering  into  the  petition, 
an()  then  adjourning,  for  1  was  then  of  opi- 
nion, that  a  petition,  signed  by  forty  thousand 
people,  did  merit  some  attention  from  the 
legislature,  and  have  not  changed  that  opinion 
at  all.  I  had  not  the  honour  of  any  personal 
acquaintance  with  lord  George  Gordon  be- 
fore that  time :  coming  out  with  him,  I  said, 
when  I  found  we  had  got  into  the  mob,  '*  you 
must  protect  me,"  when  we  had  gone  a  little 
way,  he  rather  wanted  protection  himself; 
for  they  crowded  prodigiously  upon  him; 
when  we  had  got  opposite  to  a  tavern,  I  be- 
lieve it  was  the  Horn,  there  was  a  chariot 
standing  there,  lord  George  Gordon  looked 
up  at  the  window,  and  saw  Mr.  Wi^ons  the 
owner  of  that  chariot ;  he  said, "  W  iggons,  I 
am  in  sad  distress,  will  you  lend  me  your 
chariot  ?"  Mr.  Wiggons  said, "  yes,  with  all 
my  heart ;"  lord  George  Gordon  stepped  in ; 
being  exceeding  glad  to  get  out  of  the  crowd, 
I  was  very  glad  to  get  in  too,  I  would  have 
escaped,  but  could  not,  I  told  him  I  was 

§oing  to  dine  with  a  friend  at  Whitehall,  and 
esired  to  be  set  down  there ;  when  we  had 
got  into  the  carriage,  they  closed  upon  us  in 
an  instant,  and  began  to  take  the  horses  off, 
and  it  was  impossible  to  get  out  of  the  car^ 
riage;  I  said  to  lord  George  Gorilon,  "  can 
you  contrive  any  way  in  the  world  to  let  me 
out,  for  I  have  a  firiend  waiting  for  me  to  din- 
ner at  Whitehall  ?"  the  people  got  all  over  the 
chariot's  braces,  and  hung  upon  them,  and 
this  continued  all  the  way,  and  I  was  dragged 
quite  to  the  further  end  of  the  city,  to  alSsr- 
man  Bull's  house ;  the  carriage  went  as  fast 
as  if  we  had  a  pair  of  very  good  horses  draw* 
ing  us,  and  it  ran  over  twenty  people  I  sup- 
pose. 

Did  the  men  draw  the  carriage? — ^Yes; 
they  made  one  little  stop  just  at  WhitehaU,  I 
thought  I  should  have  got  out  there,  but 
eould  not;  then  they  made  another  slop 
at  the  li^sion-house,  they  said,  **  they 
must  give  three  cheers  to  my  LDrd-Mayor," 
then  they  came  and  said,  *^  Lord  Geom^ 
let  us  hear  the  resolution  of  the  House  P'  I 
began  to  be  rather  alarmed  then,  because  I 
thought  they  imagined  the  House  had  re- 
solved in  their  fevour,  but  there  was  so  much 
noise  and  busUe,  that  fortunately  for  us«  I 
belkve  they  did  not  hear  what  the  lesolutkn 


581]  fir  High  Treaion. 

WB3;  then  they  drew  us  on  to  aldennan 
Bull's  door,  there  was  such  a  crowd  there, 
that  it  was  some  time  before  we  could  mX 
into  the  house,  when  we  came  into  Mr.  BmPs 
houae^  the  mob  did  not  disperse  at  all,  lord 
Geom  Gordon  was  advised  to  send  word, 
that  he  was  gone  away  from  thence  by  a  back 
door,  in  hopes  that  the 'mob  would  disperse ; 
we  waited  there  an  hour  and  a  half,  but  to 
no 'purpose;  then  some  of  Mr.  Bull's  family 
tola  his  lordship,  that  it  was  in  vain  to  think 
that  they  woukl  quit  the  house  while  he  con- 
tinued in  it,  and  therefore  they  advised  him 
to  go  where  he  meant  to  go,  accordingly  he 
went  down  and  got  into  the  chariot;  when 
the  coast  was  quite  clear,  which  I  believe  was 
not  till  half  an  hour  ai\er,  I  got  into  a  hack- 
ney coach  and  drove  away, 

How  came « they  to  draw  you  to  aldennan 
Bull's  houses? — ^I  cannot  say,  I  was  quite  an 
accidental  passenger. 

How  came  it  into  their  heads  to  take  lord 
George  Gordon  and  you  to  alderman  BulPs? 
— ^I  can't  tell :  because  lord  George,  when  I 
asked  him  to  take  nie  to  Whitehall,  told  me 
**  he  would^"  and  he  would  have  done  it  I  am 
convinced,  if  he  could. 

Mr.  Kenyan.  When  they  took  the  horses 
from  the  carnage,  what  did  lord  George  Gor- 
don say  to  them  ?— -4.  He  said,  "  for  God's 
sake  go  peaceably  home,  and  go  about  y 
business;^'  he  said,  whenever  he  could  speak, 
**  whilst  you  assemble  in  this  tumultuous  way, 
your  petition  will  never  be  complied  with,  the 
House  will  never  consent  to  do  it."  It  was 
impossible  for  any  man  to  take  more  pains 
thsin  lord  George  Gordon  did,  to  prevail  upon 
the  people  to  disperse,  and  he  said  so  much, 
that  I  assure  you,  when  they  put  him  to  read 
the  resolution  of  the  House  of  Commons,  it 
was  so  different  from  the  hopes  he  had  held 
out  to  them,  that  I  expected  they  would  live 
tomus  to  pieces. 

Owe  nfthe  Jury.  Did  these  appear  to  be 
the  same  sort  of  people  you  had  seen  in  St. 
GeoiigcVfields  on  the  rridav?— ^.  They 
were  so  thick  and  such  numbers  of  them, 
that  I  could  hardly  give  any  description  of 
them,  and  to  tell  you  the  truth,  I  had  no 
great  pleasure  in  looking  out  at  the  windows, 
I  kept  pretty  snug  in  Uie  comer  of  the  cha- 
riot I  bee  to  say  one  word  more,  1  should 
be  very  glaU  to  say  any  thine  in  favour  of  a 
man  whom  I  think  an  injured  innocent  man. 
There  has  been  some  doubt,  I  understand,  in 
reg^d  to  where  lord  George  Gordon  was  on 
the  Friday  night  when  we  went  out  of  the 
House,  I  have  only  to  say,  that  sir  James 
Lowther  carried  me  home,  we  had  gone  out 
of  the  House,  but  we  returned  upon  seeing  the 
soldiers  come,  because  one  of  the  soldiers  had 
been  insolent  to  lord  John  Cavendish,  his 
lordship  came  into  tlie  House  to  make  some 
compkunt^and  we  returned  into  the  House 
with  him.  While  I  was  sitting  upon  the 
bench  I  usually  sit  on,  lord  George  Gordon 
called  out  to  sir  J^uaes  ^wther  and  asked 


A.  D.  1781.  [582 

him,  if  he  could  carry  him  home  with  him, 
sir  James  complied  with  his  lordship's  re- 
quest, he  carried  me  to  the  top  of  St.  James's 
street,  he  then  went  home,  and  his  carriage 
took  lord  George  Gordon  to  his  own  house. 

Mr.  Kenyan,  Do  you  recollect  lord  George 
Gord(Mi's  sayine  any  thing  to  the  people  from 
Mr.  Bull's  window? — A,  I  do  not  recollect ; 
when  we  went  into  the  room,  it  was  a  sort  of  a 
bow  window,  his  lordship  looked  out  at  the 
window  and  went  away,  then  some  of  al- 
derman BulPs  people  said  he  was  gone  out 
at  the  back  door,  in  order  to  get  the  people  to 
disperse. 

Mr.  John  Turner  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Kenyan. 

You  were  in  St  George  Vfields  on  the  2d  of 
June  ? — ^I  was. 

Do  you  recollect  any  conversation  that 
passed  respecting  lord  George  Gordon's  going 
to  the  House  of  Commons? — I  heard  lord 
George  Gordon  speak  to  the  people  in  St. 
George-fields,  desiring  they  would  keep  peace 
and  «>od  order;  he  said,  **  if  any  thing  had 
weignt  with  their  petition,  it  would  be  their 

auietand  peaceable  behaviour,  and  thatno- 
iiing  else  would  have  weight  with  it."  His 
lordship  said,  *'  he  was  informed  ^nce  he 
came  into  the  fields,  that  a  number  of  per- 
sons had  come  abroad  that  day,  oi^  purpose  to 
raise  a  riot  and  a  tumult,"  he  said,  *'  do  not  be 
led  away  by  any  such  persons." 

Mr.  John  Humphreys  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Kenyan, 

W^ere  you  in  St.  GeorgeVfields,  on  the  2d 
of  June  ? — I  was. 

Did  you  hear  lord  George  Gordon  speak  to 
the  people  that  were  assembled  there,  respect- 
ing what  they  were  to  do? — I  remember  a 
gentleman's  coming  from  lord  George  Gor- 
don, and  speaking  to  the  people  desiring  them 
to  disperse,  and  not  to  go  up  to  the  House 
upon  any  consideration,  on  account  that 
there  was  an  act  of  parliament  which  speci- 
fied, that  only  so  many  people  should  go  up 
with  a  petition,  and  desired  they  would  dis- 
perse. 

One  of  the  Jury,  Did  he  desire  them  not 
to  eo  up  to  the  House,  or  to  disperse  ?— He 
said  both ;  he  desired  them  not  to  go  up  to 
the  House^  but  to  disperse. 

Court.  What  time  of  the  day  was  this? — 
About  eleven  o'clock. 

Were  you  witliin  the  ring  where  lord  George 
Gordon  was  ? — I  was  sittine  down  on  the  in- 
side of  the  ring;  those  inside  sat  down,  the 
next  kneeled  down,  and  the  next  stood  up. 

Do  you  know  the  gentleman's  name  who 
came  witli  that  message  from,  lord  George 
Gordon? — ^No;  it  was  a  lusty  gentleinan,  ra- 
ther bigger  than  myself. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Solicitor  General, 

Afler  lord  George  Gordon  had  sent  this 
message  to  you,  inhere  did  he  go  ? — ^Afkr  that 


68S] 


21  GEORGE  m.      Proceedingt  iBgaiusi  Lord  George  Gordon^      [5M 


was  saidy  a  gentleman  came  and  told  them  to 
go  to  their  divisions  immediately,  after  that 
3ie  ring  was  broke,  and  I  did  not  get  flight  of 
his  lordship  afterwards. 


Mr.  Sampson  Hotchkinson  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Kenyan, 

Were  you  in  St.  George's-fields  on  the  2d 
of  June  ? — ^Ycs,  I  was. 

Did  you  hear  an^r  convnsation  of  lord 
George  Gordon's  relative  to  going  up  with  the 
petition? — I  heard  a  conversation ;  lord  Geom 
Gordon  and  many  others  were  present  in  St. 
GeorgeVfields ;  the  substance  of  it  was,  that 
there  might  be  many  friends  and  many'  foes 
to  the  matter  in  hand,  and  they  might  give 
cause  for  disorder;  and  as  it  was  business  of 
importance,  they  so  tar  saw  it  necessary  to  re- 
ceive insults,  that  if  they  were  struck  over 
one  cheek,  they  would  rather  offer  the  other 
than  resent  it. 

Who  said  that? — ^I  cannot  place  it  upon 
any  particular  person ;  but  it  was  a  common 
conversation  both  in  the  middle  and  round 
the  ring ;  his  lordship  might  speak  it  or  others 
night  speak  it. 

Did  lord  George  Gordon  say  any  thing 
about  who  should  go  up  with  the  petition  ?— 
i  have  a  frail  memory ;  but  I' think,  owing  to 
pome  advice  coming  into  the  ring,  by  some 
mechanical  persons,  paper-makers  I  beUeve, 
his  lordship  advised  a  certain  number  to  go 
up  with  it;  he  said, "  he  would  wish  to  avoid 
all  offence,  and  it  might  be  attended  with 
contention,  trouble  an^  disorder;  therefore 
he  wished  for  a  small  number  to  go."  Many 
that  were  inside  the  ring  where  I  was,  said, 
^'  they  vrere  men  capable  of  conducting  them- 
selves  with  peace  and  order,  and  they  chose 
Id  go  in  person.*' 

Did  lord  George  Gordon  mention  the  num- 
ber?— ^I  cannot  positively  speak  of  the  num- 
her;  I  think  he  might  mention  the  number 
of  twelve  or  less ;  but  I  will  not  speak  to  that 
point 

This  number  of  people  however  did  go  over 
liondon-bridgc  ?— Yes. 

How  did  they  behave  in  the^way? — ^Very 
peaceably;  when  many  people  m  the  street 
would  huzza  them  and  caress  them,  they  made 
a  signal  to  drep  the  hand,  signifying  that  they 
did  not  approve  of  it. 

Mr.  John  Robin$on  swom. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Erskine, 

Were  you  in  St.  George's-fields  on  the  Sd 
pf  June? — ^I  was, 

At  what  time  did  yon  go  there  ? — ^About 
the  hour  of  twelve. 


ing  to  Westminster,  the  piQcesaoii  want  vtrf 
quietly  to  Westminster ;  I  went  with  two  or 
three  friends  to  get  some  refreshment,  I  staid 
two  or  Airee  hoivs,  I  had  not  staid  long  he* 
fore  I  found  some  people  growing  very  MIoub. 

Where  was  thisr— In  Inilace-yaitr. 

Were  they  of  the  AssoctaHon? — I  don't 
know  that  mre  was  one  of  the  Assoeiatioii 
among  them:  there  was  not  one  Uiat  I  knew. 

Were  they  as  well  dressed  as  the  Aseodft* 
tion  were  ? — ^No. 

You  did  not  think  they  were  the  Aseoeia* 
tion?— I  did  not  think  them  the  Assoeiatioii, 
they  were  seemingly  a  lower  class  of  people. 

When  you  went  along  in  your  processioB 
you  had  not  all  of  you  sticks? — ^I  had  no  stick, 
and  my  few  friends  who  acocNaipanied 
from  home,  four  of  them  had  none. 


you  stay 
they  al)  piarchcid  away  together  over  the 
tridfie. 

Were  you  one  of  those  that  marched  ?-^ 
Yes ;  I  went  in  procession  to  Westminster. 

Was  there  any  riot  or  tumult  ?-*'Not  in  go- 


Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Attorney  General, 

Did  you  march  in  the  London  division?— « 
Yes. 

I  fancy  you  did  not  know  one  hondiedth 
part  of  them  ? — ^I  do  not  know  that  I  did. 

By  whose  directions  did  you  march  9 — 
There  were  some  gentlemen  that  gave  orders, 
but  the  gentlemen  I  did  not  know. 

The  body  were  in  march  I  fancy  befiire  you 
got  into  the  field? — ^No. 

You  did  not  get  into  the  field  till  twelve 
o'clock  ?— Ko,  not  till  then^pjouts,  after  I  cot 
there  the^  formed  themselves  into  a  dicle, 
and  marched  over  the  fields. 

Was  the  petition  carried  before  yocv  divi- 
sion ? — ^It  was. 

Did  you  get  into  the  lobby  of  the  House  of 
Commons  ? — ^I  did  not,  nor  did  not  attempt  it. 

Court.  When  you  came  back  again,  you 
saw  a  great  number  of  people  that  were  not- 
ous,  had  they  bhie  cockades  or  not? — ^I  can- 
not positively  say,  to  the  best  of  my  recollec- 
tion some  had. 

Sir  James  Lomther^^  hart,  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Kenyom, 

You  were  at  the  House  of  Commons  on  the 
9d  of  Ji|ne? — I  don't  recollect  exactly  the 
day,  I  was  there  at  the  time  the  petition  was 
presented. 

Do  you  recollect  seeing  lord  George  Goiw 
don  there  ?->Ye8.  I  went  out  of  the  Home 
af^r  Uie  guards  came,  and  the  mob  was  dis- 
persed; sir  Philip  Gierke  went  along  with 
me:  we  met  the  guards  in  the  loboy;  I 
spoke  to  sir  Philip  Gierke,  and  desired  we 
might  come  back  into  the  House.  I  sat  upon 
tiie  bench  opposite  the  Treasury-bench.  Sir 
George  Savije,  as  well  as  I  can  recollect,  waa 
upon  my  left,  sir  Philip  Gierke  upon  mj 
right.  Lord  John  Cavendish  got  Uf>  to  sp^uc 
relative  to  some  insult  he  had  received  froni 
a  soldier;  he  said  it  put  him  in  mind  of  th« 
times  of  Oliver  Cromwell.  In  short,  a  soldier 
had  got  hold  of  his  collar,  and  had  insulted 
him.     Lord   George   Gordon  said   to   me^ 


"■r- 


f  AiierwiHf  esrl  of  Lansdsle^ 


585]  Jot  High  Treoion. 

^Have  TOO  a  caniage?''  I  said,  '' Yes,  I 
have/'  Ha  asked,  ^  Are  you  engaged?"  I 
nid  ^  I  would  cairy  sir  Philip  Gierke/'  He 
audy  '<  If  vou  have  room  give  me  leave  Id  so 
along  whh  you/'  I  told  him  I  shouJd  be 
giad  of  his  company,  but  I  said,  '<  Let  us  stay 
»  little  longer/'  Lord  George  Gordon  was 
fiv  going  away  before.    After  this  I  got  up  to 

Saway;  sir  George  Savile  and  sir  Philip 
erke  got  up  to  come  away  at  the  same  time. 
Yf^  came  out  of  the  House ;  sir  George  Sa- 
vile came  down  to  this  door  that  opens  into 
Westminster-hall;  we  went  down  towards 
Mrs.  Bennett's  room  the  other  way.  When  I 
came  into  that  room  there  was  no  person 
there  but  sir  John  Irwin,  waiting  for  his  car- 
nage. Colonel  Luttrell  came  in,  and  aft  I  re- 
oollect  he  had  a  blue  cockade  in  his  hat; 
none  of  us  had :  he  took  out  sir  John  Irwin. 
After  that  we  went  into  my  carriage ;  as 
soon  as  we  got  into  the  carnage,  some  of  the 
people  that  were  still  remaining,  who  were 
supposed  to  be  the  mob,  came  about  the  car- 
riage, and  asked,  ^  Is  the  bill  to  be  repeal- 
ed r'  Lord  George  Gordon  said,  ^  I  do  not 
know,  I  hope  it  will,  but  go  home,  be  quiet, 
make  no  riot,  nor  noise."  Very  little  conver- 
SKtion  passed  in  the  coach.  I  carried  sir  Phi- 
lip Gierke  to  the  toj>  of  St.  James's  street ; 
vtien  we  got  there,  sir  Philip  desired  to  take 
a  hackney-coach  and  go  home.  I  asked  lord 
George  Gordon  where  he  desired  to  be  set 
down  ?  He  said  at  his  own  house.  I  said, 
vou  seem  tired.  He  said,  very  much  so.  I 
believe  be  was  rather  sleepy  during  the  whole 
tiflDe  he  was  there.  I  said  afterwards,  you 
had  better  let  the  coach  set  me  down  and 
then  it  shall  carry  you  home.  It  set  me 
down  at  my  own  house,  and  aAerwards  went 
home  with  him.  ' 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Solicitor  GeneraL 

A  small  number  I  suppose  was  remaining 
•f  the  mob  at  the  time  you  went  away  f — ^I 
can  hardly  s^.  I  remember  extremely  well 
lord  George' Gordon  said  to  the  people,  ^  For 
God's  sake  go  home  and  be  qmet,  make  no 
riot  and  noise." 

Can  vou  form  any  judgment  what  number 
ef  people  there  might  be  ?-— It  was  dark  and 
the  guards  were  come.  When  I  was  in  the 
k>bby,upon  a  division  there  were  but  seven  of 
us  for  hearing  the  Petition.  I  met  one  of  the 
justices,  I  do  not  know  who  he  was,  in  the 
lobby.  I  was  relating  to  the  gentlemen  who 
were  there,  that  there  was  a  prodi^ous  smell 
in  the  lobby,  the  lobby  was  very  disagreeable. 
1  asked  the  justice  if  he  had  any  dimcultv  in 
eeltin^  the  people  out }  He  said  he  hadt  no 
oiffiGur^. 

Mr.  Attorney  GeneraL  You  cannot  go  into 

evidence  of  what  he  said. 

» 

Mrs.  Toud  sworn. 

Examined  by  Mr.  Kenyon, 

I  believe  you  were  a  servant  of  lord  George 

Cordon's  in  the  month  of  June  last? — ^Yes. 

t 


A.  D.  1781. 


ISM 


And  are  you  now  ?— Yes^  I  am. 

Do  you  remember  his  lordship's  coming 
home  on  the  9d  of  June  ? — ^Yes. 

At  what  time  in  the  evening  did  ho  coma 
home? — ^A  quarter  before  eleven  o'clock. 

Did  he  go  out  any  more  that  night  ?— No, 
he  did  not. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Solicitor  Gengral. 

Do  you  recollect  whether  lord  George  Gor« 
don  left  his  house  upon  the  Satinday,  Sinday, 
and  Monday,  or  on  either  of  those  days  ?— 
My  lord  was  at  home  Saturday,  Sunday,  and 
Monday. 

You  saw  him  at  home  those  days  ? — I  did. 

You  saw  him  upon  every  one  of  them  ?— < 
Yes. 

You  are  sure  of  it? — ^I  am  sure  of  it. 

Court.  Do  you  mean  that  his  lordship  did 
not  go  out  on  Saturday,  Sunday,  or  Monday, 
or  om  V  that  he  was  at  home  siMne  part  of 
those  days  ? — A,  He  was  at  home  some  part 
of  the  days. 

Mr.  Erskine.  We  are  ready,  if  the  Court 
think  it  material^  to  go  into  evidence  to  shew 
where  his  lordship  was  every  hour  and  every 
minute  of  those  days. 

Mr.  Alderman  Fugh  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Kenyon. 

I  believe  you  were  last  year  one  of  tha 
sheriffs  of  the  city  of  London  ?-^I  was. 

Do  ^ou  recollect  being  in  the  month  of 
June  with  lord  George  Gordon  in  a  coach  ?-^ 
I  remember  it  very  well.  I  hope  you  wiil 
excuse  me  if  I  should  not  be  more  ptLrticular 
in  every  transaction;  it  never  entered  my 
thoughts  that  I  should  come  here ;  but  the 
substence  I  can  remember  very  well. 

Do  you  recollect  what  day  of  the  month  it 
was  ?-^It  was  on  Wednesday  the  7th,  I  be- 
lieve, about  the  hour  of  three  o'clock  in  the 
afternoon. 

His  lordship  being  in  the  same  coach  witb 
you,  did  any  person  come  to  the  side  of  the 
coach?— A  young  man  came  with  half  a 
sheet  of  paper  that  was  written  upon ;  he 
seemed  to  be  in  great  agony ;  be  desired  the 
prisoner  to  set  his  name  to  it ;  he  said  ^'  his 
house  or  houses  were  in  denser  of  being  d^ 
stroyed,  and  he  wished  his  lordship  would  sign 
the  paper;"  now  I  am  not  quite  clear  whe- 
ther his  lordship  asked  my  opinion  about  it  or 
no^  and  whether  I  looked  at  it,  but  his  lord- 
ship did  sign  it. 

I  believe  you  signed  a  paper  as  well  as  lord 
George  Goraon  ? — No,  never. 

It  was  signed  immediately  after  i%  was 
brought  to  bis  lordship? — I  believe  his  lord- 
ship made  some  stop  at  first,  but  he  mocd 
it ;  whether  he  asked  me  anv  question  about 
it  I  do  not  remember,  but  his  lordship  did 
sign  it,  and  the  man  seemed  to  go  awagr 
happy. 

Are  you  sure  you  signed  no  papers  in  tlie 
nature  of  protectk>ns  ?-«4  am  dear  of  that. 


2i  GEORGE  III.      Proceedings  against  Lord  Oeorge  Gordon,      [58S. 

tention  on  my  part,  can  possibly  prevent  you* 
from  seeing,  unaer  the  direction  of  the  judges, 
that  the  crown  has  estabtished  no  case  of 
treason. 

Gentlemen,  I  did  expect,  that  the  Attorney 
General,  in  opening  a  great  and  solemn  ^te 
prosecution,  would  nave  at  least  indulged  the 
advocates  for  the  prisoner  with  his  notions  on 
the  law,  as  applied  to  the  case  before  you,  in 
less  general  terms. — ^It  is  very  common  in- 
deed, in  little  civil  actions,  to  make  such  ob- 
scure introdiKtions  by  way  of  trap ; — but  in 
criminal  cases,  it  is  unusual  and  unbecoming ; 
because  the  right  of  the  crown  to  repl}r,  even 
where  no  witnesses  are  called  by  the  prisoner, 
gives  it  thereby  the  advantage  of  replying, 
without  bavins  given  scope  for  observations 
on  the  principles  of  tiie  opening,  with  which 
the  reply  must  be  consistent.  , ' 

One  observation  he  has,  however,  made  on 
the  subject,  in  the  truth  of  which  I  heartily 
conair,  viz.  That  the  crime,  of  which  the 
noble  person  at  your  bar  stands  accused,  is 
the  very  highest  and  most  atrocious  that  & 
member  of  civil  life  can  possibly  commit; 
because  it  is  not,  like  sill  other  crimes,  merely 
an  injury  to  society  from  the  breach  of  some 
of  its  reciprocal  relations^  but  is  an  attempt 
utterly  to  dissolve. and  destroy  society  (Utogetker, 

In  nothing  therefore  is  the  wisdom  and 
justice  of  our  laws  so  strongly  and  eminently 
manifested,  as  in  the  rigid,  accurate,  cautious, 
explicit,  unequivocal  definition  of  what  shall 
constitute -this  high  offence; — ^for,  high  trea- 
son consisting  in  the  breach  and  dissolution 
of  that  allegiance,  which  binds  society  toge. 
ther,  if  it  were  left  ambiguous,  uncertain,  or 
undefined,  all  the  other  laws  established  for 
the  personal  security  of  the  subject  would  be 
utterly  useless; — since  this  offence,  wbkh. 
from  Its  nature,  is  so  capable  of  being  created 
and  judged  of,  by  rules  of  political  expediency 
on  the  spur  of  the  occasion,  would  be  a  rod 
at  will  to  bruise  the  most  virtuous  membera 
of  the  community,  whenever  virtue  might  be- 
come troublesome  or  obnoxious  to  a  bad  go> 
vernment. 

Injuries  to  the  persons  and  properties  oC 
our  neighbours,  considered  as  individuals, 
which  are  the  subjects  of  all  other  criminal 
prosecutions,  are  not  only  capable  of  greater 
precision,  but  the  powers  of  the  state  can  be 
out  rarely  interested  in  straining  them,  be^ 
yond  their  legal  interpretation  ;--^ut  if  trea^ 
son,  where  the  government  itself  is  directly  4^- 
fended,  were  left  to  the  judgment  of  its  mi- 
nisters, without  any  boundaries,— nay,  witb* 
out  the  most  Inroad,  disiinct,  and  inviolable 
boundaries  marked  out  by  law, — there  could 
be  no  public  fireedom, — and  the  condition  of 
an  Englishman  would  be  no  better  than  a 
slave's  at  the  foot  df  a  sultan ;  since  there  is 
little  difference  whether  a  man  dies  by  the ' 
stroke  of  a  sabre,  without  the  forms  of  a  trial, 
or  by  the  most  pompous  ceremonies  of  justice, 
if  the  crime  could  be  made  at  pleasure  by  tho 
state  to  fit  the  fiict  that  was  to  be  th^ 


i;«iitiemen  of  the  Jury  ;f  Mr.  Ken- 
>MtC  baviDg  informed  the  Court  that  we 
|(vp«nse  to  call  no  other  witnesses,  it  is  now 
«jtv  duty  to  address  myself  to  you,  as  counsel 
i>r  the  "noble  prisoner  at  the  bar,  the  whole 
evidence  being  closed ;— I  use  the  word 
closed,  because  h  is  certainly  not  finished, 
since  I  have  been  obliged  to  leave  the  place 
in  which  I  sat,||  to  disentangle  myself  from 
the  volumes  of  men's  names,  which  lay  there 
under  my  feet,  whose  testimony,  had  it  been 
necessary  for  the  defence,  would  have  con- 
firmed all  the  facts  that  are  alrtiidy  in  evi- 
dence before  you. 

Gentlemen,  I  feel  myself  entitled  to  ex- 
pect, both  from  you  and  from  the  Court,  the 
Sreatest  indulgence  and  attention ; — I  am,  in- 
ced,  a  greater  object  of  your  compassion, 
than  even  my  noble  firiend  whom  I  am  de- 
fending. He  rests  secure  in  conscious  inno- 
cence, and  in  the  well-placed  assurance,  that 
it  can  suffer  no  stain  in  your  hands : — not  so 
with  MB ; — ^I  stand  up  before  you  a  troubled, 
I  am  afiraid  a  guilty  man,  in  luiving  presumed 
to  accept  of  the  awful  task,  which  I  am  now 
called  upon  to  perform ;— ra  task,  which  my 
learned  niend  who  spoke  before  me,  though 
he  has  justly  risen  oy  extraordinary  capacity 
and  experience  to  the  highest  rank  in  his 
profession,  has  spoken  of  with  that  distrust 
and  diffidence,  which  becomes  every  Christian 
in  a  cause  of  blood.  If  Mr.  Kenyon  has  such 
feelings,  think  what  mine  must  be  ? — Alas  ! 
gentiemen,  who  am  I  ? — a  young  man  of  lit- 
tle experience,  unused  to  the  bar  of  criminal 
courts,  and  sinking  under  the  dreadful  con- 
sciousness of  my  defects.  I  have  however 
this  consolation,  that  no  ignorance  nor  inat- 

*  Frooi  this  speech  the  learned  and  diaoriioinating 
reviever  of  <  Lord  Rnkioe's  Speeches'  ("fiee  16  Edin* 
burgh  Review,  102)  says,  '*  We  are  unable  to  extract 
any  passages  which  can  give  a  just  notion  of  its  cha- 
racter and  high  merits ;  for  these  oonsist,  not  in  daz- 
zlinff  sentences,  nor  in  particular  bursts  of  eloquence, 
but  in  the  close  texture  of  the  whole  ar^ment,  both 
where  Mr.  Erskine  lays  down  the  principles  of  trea- 
•on-law, — skilfully  adapting  them  to  his  purpose,  bj 
bringing  forward  sueh  parts  chiefly  as  suit  his  case, 
•—and  illattraling  them  by  a  refereaoe  to  mroum- 
stanoes  like  those  he  had  himself  to  deal  with,  and 
where  be  more  particularly  and  more  directly  makes 
the  application  of  those  doctrines  to  the  diarges 
against  lord  George  Gordon.  The  whole  speech 
must  be  read,  and  even  oarefoUy  studied,  before  a 
just  sense  of  the  talents  displayed  in  it  can  be  enter- 
tained, or  a  conjecture  formed  of  its  great  effects 
upon  the  audience  who  heard  it,  and  the  bibunal  to 
wnich  it  was  addressed." 

t  In  the  following  account  of  Mr.  Brskine*8  speech, 
I  have  availed  myself  of  the  report  of  it  in  the 
aecoud  edition  of  Mr.  Ridgway's  Collection  of  Lord 
Enkine*8  Speeches. 

%  Afterwards  Lord  Reayon,  and  Chief  Justice  of 
the  Court  of  Kiiig's-bench. 

I  Mr.  Brskine  sat  originally  in  the  front  row,  under 
vrliieh  there  were  immense  piles  of  papers ;  and  he 
retiivd  back  before  he  began  to  addresi  the  Jury. 


ii89] 


for  High  Treason. 


A.  D.  1781. 


L590 


Would  to  Gody  gentlemen  of  the  juryy  that 
this  were  an  observation  of  theory  alone,  and 
that  the  page  of  our  history  were  not  blotted 
with  so  many  melancholy  dissracefiil  proofs 
of  its  truth ! — ^but  these  pitwis,  melancholy 
and  disgracefiil  as  they  are,  have  become  glo- 
rious monuments  of  the  wisdom  of  our  fathers, 
and  ought  to  be  a  theme  of  rejoicing  and 
emulation  to  us;  since  from  the  mischiefs 
constantly  arising  to  the  state  from  every  ex- 
tension of  the  ancient  law  of  treason,  the 
ancient  law  of  treason  has  been  always  re- 
stored, and  the  constitution  at  different  pe- 
riods washed  clean, — though  unhappily  with 
the  blood  of  oppressed  and  innocent  men. 

When  I  speak  of  the  ancient  law  of  trea- 
son, I  mean  the  venerable  statute  of  king 
Edward  the  third,  on  which  the  indictment 
you  are  now  trying  is  framed; — ^a  statute 
made,  as  its  preamble  sets  forth,  for  the  more 
precise  definition  of  this  crime,  which  had 
not,  by  the  common  law,  been  sufficiently 
explained;  and  consisting  of  different  and 
distinct  members,  the  plain  unextended  letter 
of  which  was  thought  to  be  a  sufficient  pro- 
tection to  the  person  and  honour  of  the  sove- 
reign, and  an  adequate  security  for  the  laws 
committed  to  his  execution.  I  shall  mention 
only  two  of  the  number,  the  others  not  being 
in  the  remotest  degree  applicable  to  the  pre- 
sent accusation. 

To  compasSf  or  imagine  the  death  of  the 
king :  such  imagination,  or  purpose  of  the 
mind  (visible  only  to  its  great  Author),  being 
manifested  by  some  open  ad ;  an  institution 
obviously  directed,  not  only  to  the  security  of 
his  natural  person,  but  to  the  stability  of  the 
^vemment ;  the  life  of  the  prince  being  so 
interwoven  with  the  constitution  of  the  state, 
that  an  attempt  to  destroy  the  one,  is  justly 
held  to  be  a  rebellious  conspiracy  against  the 
other. 

Secondly,  which  is  the  crime  charged  in 
the  indictment,  lo  levy  war  agairnt  him  in  hit 
realm ; — a  t^rm  that  one  would  think  could 
require  no  explanation,  nor  admit  of  any  am- 
bis:uous  construction  amongst  men,  who  are 
wSling  to  read  laws  according  to  the  plain 
signification  of  the  language,  m  which  they 
are  written ;  but  which  nas  nevertheless  been 
an  abundant  source  of  that  constructive  cavil, 
which  this  sacred  and  valuable  act  was  made 
expressly  to  prevent.  The  real  meaning  of 
this  branch  of  it,  as  it  is  bottomed  in  poncy, 
reasoh,  and  justice, — as  it  is  ordained  in  plain 
unambiguous  words, — as  it  is  confirmed  by 
^e  precedents  of  justice,  and  illustrated  by 
the  writings  of  the  great  lights  of  the  law,  in 
difierent  a^es  of  our  history,  I  shall,  before  I 
sit  down,  impress  upon  your  minds  as  a  safe, 
unerring  standard,  oy  which  to  measure  the 
evidence  you  have  heard.  At  present  I  shall 
only  say,  that  far  and  wide  as  judicial  deci- 
sions have  strained  the  construction  of  levy- 
ing war,  beyond  the  warrant  of  the  statute, 
to  the  discontent  of  some  of  the  greatest 
oroameRlft  of  the  profession,  they  hurt  not 


me ; — as  a  citizen  I  may  disapprove  of  them, 
— but  as  advocate  for  the  noble  person  at 
vour  bar,  I  need  not  impeach  their  authority ; 
because  none  of  them  nave  said  more  than 
this, — ^that  war  may  be  levied  against  the 
king  in  his  realm,  not  only  by  an  insurrec* 
tioB  to  change^  or  to  destroy  the  fundamental 
constitution  of^  the  government  itself  by  re- 
bellious war,  but,  by  the  same  war,  to  endea- 
vour to  suppress  the  execution  of  the  laws  it 
has  enacted,  or  to  violate  and  overbear  the 
protection  they  afford,  not  to  individuals 
(which  is  a  private  wrong),  but  to  any  general 
class  or  description  of  Uie  commumty,  by 

PREMEDITATED  OPEN  ACTS  OF  VIOLENCE,  HOS- 
TILITY,  AND   FORCE. 

Gentlemen,  I  repeat  these  words,  and  call 
solemnly  on  the  judges  to  attend  to  what  I 
say,  and  to  contradict  me  if  I  mistake  the 

law, — BY  PREMEDITATED,  OPEN  ACTS  OF  VIO- 
LENCE, HOSTILITY,  AND  FORCE  ;—-nothin2 
ec^uivocal ; — nothing  ambiguous ; — no  inti- 
nudations,  or  overawings,  which  signify  no- 
thing precise  or  certaua,  because  what  frightens 
one  man,  or  set  of  men,  ma^  have  no  effect 
upon  another ; — ^but  that  which  compels  and 
coerces; — OPEN  violence  AND  force. 

Gentlemen,  this  is  not  only  the  whole  text, 
but,  I  submit  it  to  the  learned  judges,  under 
whose  correction  I  am  happy  to  speak,  an 
accurate  explanation  of  the  statute  of^  treason, 
as  fair  as  it  relates  to  the  present  subject, 
taken  in  its  utmost  extent  of  judicial  con- 
struction, and  which  you  cannot  but  see  not 
only  in  its  letter,  but  in  its  most  strained  sig- 
nifiiiation,  is  confined  to  acts  which  tmme- 
diatefyf—openli/y — and  unambi^uousfy,  strike 
at  the  very  root  and  being  ot  government, 
and  not  to  any  other  offences,  however  inju- 
rious to  its  peace. 

Such  were  the  boundaries  of  high  treason 
marked  out  in  the  reign  of  Edward  the  third ; 
and  as  often  as  the  vices  of  bad  princes, 
assisted  by  weak  submissive  parliaments,  ex- 
tended state  offences  beyond  the  strict  letter 
of  that  act,  so^of\en  the  virtue  of  better 
princes  and  wiser  parliaments  brought  them 
back  again. 

A  loTig  list  of  new  treasons,  accumulated  in 
the  wretched  reign  of  Richard  the  second, 
from  which  (to  use  the  language  of  the  act 
tliat  repealed  them)  <'  no  man  knew  what  to 
do  or  say  for  doubt  of  the  pains  of  death," 
were  swept  away  in  the  first  year  of  Henry 
the  fourth,  his  successor ;  and  many  more, 
which  had  again  sprung  up  in  the  following 
distracted  arbitrary  reigns,  putting  tumults 
and  riots  on  a  footing  with  armed  rebellion, 
were  again  levelled  in  the  first  year  of  queen 
Mary,  and  the  statute  of  Edward  made  once 
more  the  standard  of  treasons. — ^I'he  acts  in« 
deed  for  securing  his  present  majesty's  illus- 
trious house  from  the  machinations  of  those 
very  Papists,  who  are  now  so  highly  in  favour^ 
have  since  that  time  been  added  to  the  list ; 
but  these  not  being  applicable  to  the  present 
case,  the   ancient  statute  is  still  our  only 


601] 


21  GJ^OEGE  IIL      Proceedings  t^mnd  Lwd  George  Gordon^      [jSOf 

tacked  the  Bank^— Inoke  opai  the  priaoniy-^ 
and  set  London  in  a  connneratkniy  I  ahoidd 
not  now  be  addressing  you.— 3>o  me  the  jus- 
tice to  believe,  that  I  am  neither  so  foolish  as 
to  imagine  I  could  have  defended  him,  nor  so 
proAigate  as  to  wish  it  if  I  could. — ^But  when 
It  has  appeared,  not  only  by  the  evidence  in 
the  cause,  but  by  the  evidence  of  the  thing 

itself^ — BY  THE  ISSUES  OF  LIFE,  WHICH  MAT 
BE    CALLED    THE  EVIDEVCB    OF   HeaVEH,  that 

these  dreadiVil  events  were  either  entirely  uii> 
connected  with  the  assembling  of  that  mul* 
titude  to  attend  the  petition  of  the  Prolest«- 
ants,  or,  at  the  very  worst,  the  unforeseen, 
undesigned,  unabetted,  and  deeply  regretted 
consequences  of  it,  I  confess  the  seriousness 
aiMi  solemnity  of  this  trial  sink  and  dwindle 
away. — Only  abstract  from  your  minds  all 
that  misfortune,  accident,  and  the  wickedness 
of  others  have  brought  upon  the  scene;  and 
the  cause  requires  no  advocate.— When  I  saj 
that  it  requires  no  advocate,  I  mean  that  it 
requires  no  argument  to  screen  it  from  the 
guilt  of  tre4Uon  :  for  though  I  am  perfectly 
convinced  of  the  purity  of  my  noble  6ieod'8 
intentions,  yet  I  am  not  bound  to  defend  his 
prudence,  nor  to  set  it  up  as  a  pattern  for 
imitation ;  since  you  are  not  trying  him  for 
imprudence,  for  indiscreet  zeal,  or  for  want 
of  foresight  and  precaution,  but  for  a  delibe- 
rate and  malicious  predetermination  to  over* 
power  the  laws  and  government  of  his  coon- 
try,  by  HOSTILE,  REBELLIOUS  FORCE. 

The  indictment  therefore  first  charges,  thaft 
the  multitude,  assembled  on  the  Snd  of  Jtme^ 

**  WERE  ARMED  AND  ARRAYED    IN    A  WARLIKK 

MANNER:"  which  indeed,  if  it  hadomitled  to 
char&te,  we  should  not  have  troubled  you  witii 
any  defence  at  all,  because  no  judgment  oonid 
have  been  etven  on  so  defective  an  indict^ 
ment ;  for  the  statute  never  meant  to  put  aa 
unarmed  assembly  of  citizens  on  a  rooting 
with  armed  reb^ion ;  and  the  crime,  what- 
ever it  is,  must  always  appear  on  the  -  reooixl 
to  warrant  the  judgment  of  the  court. 

It  is  certainty  true,  that  it  has  been  held 
to  be  matter  of  evidence,  and  dependent  on 
circumstances,  what  numbers,  or  species  of 
equipment  and  order,  thoueh  not  the  regular 
equipment  and  order  of  soidien,  shall  consti- 
tute an  army,  so  as  to  maintain  the  averment 
in  the  indictment  of  a  warlike  array ;  and 
likewise,  what  kinds  of  violence,  though  not 
pointed  at  the  king's  person,  or  the  existence 
of  the  government,  snail  be  construed  to  be 
war  against  the  king :  but  as  it  has  never 
yet  been  maintained  in  argument,  in  maj 
court  of  ^e  kingdom,  or  even  speculated  upon 
in  theory,  that  a  multitude,  without  either 
weapons  ofiensive  or  defensive  of  any  sort 
or  kind,  and  yet  not  supplying  tiie  want  «f 
them  by  such  acts  of  vioieiKse,  as  multitudea 
sufficiency  sreat  can  achieve  without  then^ 
was  a  hostile  array  within  the  statute  :-4b  it 
has  never  beMn  asserted  by  the  wilaest  adU 
venturer  in  constructive  treason,  that  a  mill- 
titede,-«-anned  with    nothingy^threaleuiBf 


^».v« ,  which  is  so  plain  and  simple  in  its 
object,  so  explicit  ana  correct  in  its  terms,  as 
to  leave  no  roctn  for  intrinsic  error;  and  the 
^tdom  of  its  authors  has  shut  the  door 
against  all  extension  of  its  phin  letter :  de^ 
cuiring  in  the  very  body  of  the  act  itself,  that 
tiothing  out  of  that  plain  letter  should  be 
brou^t  within  the  pale  of  treason  by  infe- 
rence or  construction,  but  tiiat,  if  any  such 
cases  happened,  they  should  be  referred  to 
the  parliament. 

This  wise  restriction  has  been  the  subject 
of  much  just  eulogium  by  all  the  most  cele- 
brated writers  on  the  criminal  law  of  Eng- 
land. Lord  Coke  says, — The  parliament  that 
made  it  was  on  that  account  called  Benedict 
turn  or  Blessed :  and  the  learned  and  virtuous 
judge  Hale,  a  bitter  enemv  and  opposer  of 
constructive  treasons,  spea&s  of  this  sacred 
institution  with  that  enthusiasm,  which  it 
cannot  but  inspire  in  the  breast  of  every 
lover  of  the  just  privileges  of  maoJdnd. 

Gentlemen,  in  these  mild  days,  when  juries 
are  so  free,  and  judges  so  independent,  per- 
haps all  these  observations  misnt  have  been 
spared  as  unnecessary ; — but  tney  can  do  no 
harm ;  and  this  history  of  treason,  so  honour- 
able to  England,  cannot  ^even  imperfectly  as 
I  have  given  it)  be  unpleasant  to  Engfish- 
inen.  At  all  events,  it  cannot  be  thought  an 
inapplicable  introduction  to  saying,  that  lord 
Georse  Gordon,  who  stands  before  you  in- 
dicted for  that  crime, — is  tiot, — cannot  be 
etiiltv  of  it,  unless  he  has  levied  war  sigainst 
the  king  m  his  realm,  contrary  to  the  plain 
letter,  spirit,  and  intention  of  the  Act  of  the 
25th  of  Edward  the  8rd;  to  be  extended  by 
no  new  or  occasional  constructions, — ^to  be  strain- 
ed by  no  fancied  analogies^ — ^to  be  measured  by 
no  rules  of  political  expediency, — ^to  be  judged 
of  by  no  theory^Xjo  be  determined  by  the 
nnsdom  cf  no  individual,  hosoeder  toisey--iut  to 
he  expounded  by  ike  simple^  genuine  letter  cf 
theUw.  *^ 

Gentlemen,  the  only  overt  act  charged  in 
the  indictment  is — ^the  assembling  the  multi- 
tude, which  we  all  of  us  remember  went  up 
with  the  petition  of  the  associated  Protestants 
on  the  9nd  day  of  last  June;  and  in  address- 
ing mvself  to  a  humane  and  sensible  jury  of 
Bnglishmen,  sitting  in  judgment  on  the  life 
of  a  fellow-citizen,  more  especially  under  the 
direction  of  a  court  so  fiUea  as  this  is,  I  trust 
I  need  not  remind  you,  that  the /yurpoief  of 
that  multitude,  as  originally  assembled  on 
that  day,  and  the  purposes  and  acts  of  him  who 
MSsembUd  them,  are  the  sole  objects  ofinvestiga-i 
fton;  and  that  all  the  dismal  consequences 
which  followed,  and  which  naturally  link 
themselves  with  this  subject  in  the  firmest 
minds,  roust  be  altogether  cut  off,  «nd  ab- 
stracted from  your  attention,--/icrf^er  than 
the  eeidence  warrants  their  admissum.  Indeed, 
if  the  evidence  had  been  co-extensive  with 
these  consequences; — ^if  it  had  been  proved 
tiiat  the  same  multitude,  under  the  directum 
If  hrd  Oeorge  Gordon,  had  afterwards  at- 


WSJ 


for  lf%A  TrMUMf • 

d  doing  nothing,  was  an  army 
levering  war;  I  am  entitled  to  say,  that  the 
evidence  does  not  support  the  first  charge  in 
the  indictment;  but  that,  on  the  contraiy, 
H  is  manifestly  ^se;— false  in  the  know- 
ledge of  the  crown,  which  prosecutes  it ; — 
fiilse  in  the  knowledge  of  every  man  in 
London,  who  was  not  bed-ridden  on  Fri- 
day the  9nd  of  June,  and  who  saw  the 
yqjceable  demeanour  of  the  associated  Pro- 
testants. 

But  you  will  hear,  no  doubt,  from  the'  So- 
licitor General  {for  thty  have  Moved  all  their 
mielligenu  for  the   reply),  that  fury  sup- 
plies arms;— ;^rsr  arma  minittrat ; — and  the 
case  of  Dammaree*  will,  I  suppose,  be  re- 
fened  to ;  where  the  people  assembled,  had 
ao  banners  or  arms,  but  only  dubs  and  blud- 
geons: ^ret  the  rinueader,  who  led  them  on 
to  mischief,  was  acyudged  to  be  guilty  of  hi^ 
treason  for  levying  war.    This  Judgment  it  is 
not  my  purpose  to  impeach,  tor  I  have  no 
linie  m  oigression  to  points  that  do  not  press 
upon  me. — ^In  the  case  of  Dammaree,  the 
nob,  though  not  regularly  armed,  were  pro- 
vided with  such  weapons  as  best  suited  their 
fluschievous   designs; — their  designs  were, 
bendes,  open  and  avowed,  and  all  the  mischief 
was  done  that  could  have  been  accomplished, 
if  they  had  been  in  the  completest  armour; — 
thev  burnt  dissenting  meeting-houses  protect- 
ed bv  law,  and  Dammaree  was  taken  at  their 
kea^  in  flagrante  delicto^  with  a  torch  in  his 
band,  not  only  in  the  very  act  of  destroying 
one  of  them,  but  leading  on  his  followers,  in 
fer»ny  to  the  omwed  destruction  of  all  the 
fast — Theie  could  therefore  be  no  doubt  of 
Ail  purpose  and  mtention.  nor  any  great  doubt 
Ibot  tne  perpetration  of  such  purpose  was, 
from  its  generality^,  high  treason,  if  perpe- 
trated by  such  a  wrce,  as  distinguishes  a 
felonious  riot  from  a  treasonable  lev;^ing  of 
■war. — The  prmcipal  doubt  therefore  in  that 
case  was,  whether  such  an  unarmed  riotous 
force  was  war,  within  the  meaning  of  the  sta- 
tute;  and  on  that  noint  veiy  learned  men 
have  differed ;  nor  snail  I  attempt  to  decide 
between  them,  because  in  this  one  point  they 
aU  agree.    Gentiemen,  I  beseech  van  to  attend 
ta  me  here. — I  say  on  this  point  they  all  agree ; 
lAat  it  is  the  intehtion  of  assembling  them, 
eshickjifrms  the  guilt  of  treason  :   I  will  give  it 
vou  m  the  words  of  hi^h  authority, — the 
kamed  Foster;  whose  pnvate  opinions  will. 
BO  doubt,  be  pressed  upon  you  as  doctrine  and 
law,  9pd  which,  if  taken  together,  as  all  opi- 
nions ought  to  be,  and   not   extracted   in 
smuggled  sentences  to  serve  a  shallow  trick, 
I  am  contented  to  consider  as  authority. 

That  mat  judge,  immediately  after  sup- 
porting m  case  of  Dammaree,  as  a  levying 
war  within  the  statute,  aj;ainst  the  opinion  of 
Hale,  in  a  ^milar  case,  viz.  the  destruction  of 
faawdy-houses,  which  happened  in  his  time, 
aaya^  *^  The  true  criterion  therefore  seems  to  be 

*  See  it,  Yol.  15,  p.  521. 
VOL.  XXI. 


A.  D,  1781. 


[59* 


quo  animo  did  the  parties  assemble? — with 
what  intention  did  th^  meet  V 

On  that  issne,  then,  by  which  I  am  sup- 
ported by  the  whole  body  of  the  criminal  law 
of  England ; — poncernine  which  there  are  no 
practical  precedents  of  uie  courts  ^at  clash, 
nor  even  abstract  opinions  of  the  closet  that 
differ,  I  come  forth  with  boldness  to  meet  the 
crown;  for  even,  supposing  that  peaceable 
multitude,  though  not  hostilely  arrayed,-^ 
though  without  one  species  of  weapon  among 
them, — ^though  assembled  without  plot  or 
disguise  by  a  public  advertisement,  exnorting, 
nay  cammanding  peace,  and  invidn^  the  ma- 
gistrates to  be  present  to  restore  it,  it  broken : 
— ^though  composed  of  thousands  who  are 
now  standing  around  you,  unimpeached  and 
unreproved,  yet  who  are  all  princi{Nds  in  trea- 
son^ if  such  assembly  was  treason ;  sup- 
vosmg,  I  say,  this  multitude  to  be  neverthe- 
less an  array  within  the  statute,  still  the  great 
question  would  remain  behind,  on  which  Uie 
suilt  o^  innocence  of  the  accused  must  singly 
depend,  and  which  it  is  your  exclusive  pro- 
vince to  determine  .* — namely,  whether  tney 
were  assembled  by  my  noble  client,  for  the 
traitorous  purpose  charged  in  the  indictment  9 
— For  war  must  not  only  be  levied,  but  it 
must  be  levied  against  the  king  in  his  realm, 
1.  f .  either  direct^  against  his  person  to  alter 
the  constitution  of  the  government,  of  which 
he  is  the  head,  or  to  suppress  the  laws  com- 
mitted to  his  execution,  by  rebellious  force. 
You  must  find  that  lord  George  Gordon  as- 
sembled these  men  with  that  traitorous  inten- 
tion : — ^you  must  find  not  merely  a  riotouv 
illegal  petitioning^ — not  a  tumultuous,  inde- 
cent importunity  to  influence  parliament, — 
not  the  compulsion  of  motive,  from  seeing  so 
great  a  body  of  people  united  in  sentiment 
and  clamorous  supphcatiouy — but  the  abso- 
lute, unequivocal  compulsion  op  force, 
from  the  hostile  acts  of  numbers  united 
in  rebellious  conspiracy  and  arms. 

This  is  the  issue  you  arr  to  try  :  for 
crimes  of  all  denominations  consist  wholly  in 
the  purpose  of  the  human  will  producing  the 
act :  Actus  non  facit  ream  nisi  mens  sit  rea — - 
The  act  does  not  constitute  guilt,  unless  the 
mind  be  guilty.  This  is  the  great  text  from 
which  the  whole  moral  of  penal  justice  is  de- 
duced :  it  stands  at  the  too  of  the  criminal 
page,  throughout  all  the  volumes  of  our  hu- 
mane and  sensible  laws ;  and  lord  chief  jus- 
tice Coke,  whose  chapter  on  this  crime  is  the 
most  authoritative  and  masterly  of  all  his 
valuable  works,  ends  almost  every  sentence 
with  an  emphatical  repetition  of  it. 

The  indictment  must  charge  an  open  act, 
because  the  purpose  of  the  mind,  which  is 
the  object  of  trial,  can  only  be  known  by  ac- 
tions ;  or,  again  to  use  the  words  of  Foster, 
who  has  ably  and  accurately  expressed  it, 
^  the  traitorous  purpose  is  the  treason,  the 
overt  act,  the  means  made  use  of  toeffec* 
tuate  the  intentions  of  the  heart/' — But  why 
should  I  borrow  the  language  of  Foster,  or  of 

S  Q 


595] 


21  GEORGE  III.      Proceedingi  against  Lord  George  Gord^m,     1596 


any  other  man,  when  the  language  of  the  in- 
dictment itself  is  lying  before  our  eyes  ?  What 
does  it  saCy? — ^Does  it  directly  charge  the 
overt  act  as  in  itself  constituting  the  crime  ? 
-»No. — It  charges  that  the  prisoner  ''  mali- 
ciously and  traitorously  did  compass^  imagine^ 
and  intend  to  raise  and  levy  war  and  rebellion 
against  the  king  ;*^ — ^this  is  the  malice  pre^ 
pense  of  treason ; — and  that  to  fulfil  and  bring 
to  effect  such  traitorous  compassings  and  inten^ 
tionsy  he  did,  on  the  day  mentioned  in  the  in- 
dictment, actually  assemble  them^  and  levy 
war  and  rebellion  against  the  king. — ^Thus 
the  law,  which  is  made  to  correct  and  nunish 
the  wickedness  of  the  heart,  and  not  tne  un- 
conscious deeds  of  the  body,  goes  up  to  the 
fountain  of  human  agency,  and  arraigns  the 
lurking  mischief  of  Ine  soul,  dragging  it  to 
light  by  the  evidence  of  open  acts. — ^The  hos- 
tile mind  is  the  crime ;  and,  therefore,  unless 
the^matters  which  are  in  evidence  before  you, 
do,  beyond  all  doubt  or  possibilitv  of  error, 
convince  you  that  the  prisoner  is  a  determined 
traitor  in  his  hearty  he  is  not  guilty. 

It  is  the  same  principle  which  creates  all 
the  various  degrees  of  homicide,  from  that 
which  is  excusaole,  to  the  malignant  guilt  of 
murder. — The  fact  is  the  same  in  all, — the 
death  of  the  man  is  the  imputed  crime ;  but 
the  intention  makes  all  the  difference ;  and  he 
who  killed  him  is  pronounced  a  murderer, — 
a  single  felon, — or  only  an  unfortunate  man, 
as  the  circumstances,  by  which  his  mind  is  de- 
ciphered to  the  jury,  show  it  to  have  been 
cankered  by  deliberate  wickedness,  or  stirred 
up  by  sudden  passions. 

Here  an  immense  multitude  was,  beyond 
all  doubt,  assembled  on  the  2d  of  June ;  but 
whether  he  that  assembled  them  be  guilty  of 
hkh  treason,  of  a  high  misdemeanor,  or  only 
ofthe  breach  of  the  act  of  king  Charles  the 
Snd  against  tumultuous  petitioning  (if  such 
an  act  still  exists),  depends  wholly  upon  the 
evidence  of  his  purpose  in  assembling  Uiem, 
-—to  be  gatheien  by  you,  and  hy  you  alone. 
from  the  whole  tenour  of  his  conduct ; — and 
^o  be  gathered  not  by  inference  or  probabiliiyy 
or  reasonable  presumptioHy  but  in  the  words 
of  the  act,  proveably ;  that  is,  in  the  full  un- 
erring force  of  demonstration .  You  are  called 
upon  your  oaths  to  sav,  not  whether  lord 
George  Gordon  assembled  the  multitudes  in 
the  pUu:e  charged  in  the  indictment,  for  that 
is  not  denied  ;  but  whether  it  appears  by  the 
facts  produced  in  evidence  for  the  crown, 
when  confronted  with  the  proofs  which  we 
have  laid  before  you,  that  he  assembled  them 
in  hostile  array^  and  with  a  hostile  mind,  to 
take  the  laws  into  his  own  hands  by  main  force, 
and  to  dissolve  the  constitution  of  the  govern- 
ment, unless  his  petition  should  be  listened  to  by 
parliament* 

That, — it  is  your  exclusive  province  to  de- 
termine. The  court  can  onlv  tell  you  .what 
acts  the  law,  in  its  general  theory,  holds  to 
be  high  treason,  on  the  jgeneral  assumption, 
that  such  acts  proceed  from  traitorous  pur- 


pNOses :  but  they  must  leave  it  to  your  deci^ 
fiion,  and  to  yours  alone,  whether  the  acts 
prdved  appear,  in  the  present  instance,  under 
all  the  circumstances,  to  have  arisen  from  the 
causes  which  form  tlie  essence  of  this  h^h 
crime. 

Gentlemen,  you  have  now  heard  the  law  of 
treason ;  first  in  the  abstract,  and  secondly  as 
it  applies  to  the  general  features  ofthe  case : 
and  you  have  heard  it  with  as  much  sinceri^ 
as  if  I  had  addressed  you  upon  my  oath  fiom 
the  bench  where  the  judges  sit. — ^I  declare  to 
you  solemnly,  in  the  presence  of  that  great 
Being,  at  whose  bar  we  must  all  hereafter  ap- 
pear, that  I  have  used  no  one  art  of  an  advo- 
cate, but  have  acted  the  plain  unaffected  part 
of  a  Christian  man,  instructing  the  conscieDces 
of  his  fellow-citizens  to  do  justice.  If  I  have 
deceived  you  on  the  subject,  I  am  myself  de* 
ceived; — ^and  if  I  am  misled  through  igno- 
rance, my  ignorance  is  incurable,  for  I  have 
spared  no  pains  to  understand  it.  I  am  not 
stiff  in  opinions ;  but  before  I  change  any  one 
of  those  that  I  have  given  you  to-oay,  I  must 
see  some  direct  monument  of  justice  that  ooi^ 
tradicts  them :  for  the  law  of  England  pays  no 
respect  to  theories,  however  ingenious,  or  to 
autnors,  however  wise ;  and  therefore,  unlets 
you  hear  me  refitted  by  a  series  of  direct  pre- 
cedents,  and  not  by  vague  doctrine,  if  you  wish 
to  sleep  in  ^esce,yollow  me. 

And  now  the  most  important  part  of  our 
task  begins,  namely,  the  application  of  the 
evidence  to  the  doctrines  I  have  laid  down; 
for  trial  is  nothing  more,  than  the  reference  of 
facts  to  a  certun  rule  of  action,  and  a  loiig 
recapitulation  of  them  only  serves  to  disttact 
and  perplex  the  memory,  without  enlighten- 
ing the  judgment,  unless  the  great  standard 
pnnciple  by  which  they  are  to  be  measured  is 
fixed,  and  rooted  in  the  mind. — ^When  that  is 
done  (which  I  am  confident  has  been  done  by 
you),  every  thing  worthy  of  observation  falls 
naturally  into  its  place,  and  the  result  is  safe 
and  certain. 

Gentlemen,  it  is  already  in  proof  before  you 
(indeed  it  is  now  a  matter  of  history),  that  an 
act  of  parliament  passed  in  the  session  of  1778, 
for  the  repeal  ot  certain  restrictions,  which 
the  pohcy  of  our  ancestors  had  imposed  upon 
the  Roman  Catholic .  religion,  to  prevent  its 
extension,  and  to  render  its  limited  toleration 
harmless;  restrictions,  imposed  not  because 
our  ancestors  took  upon  them  to  pronounce 
that  faith  to  be  offensive  to  God,  but  because 
it  was  incompatible  with  good  faith  to  man; 
— being  utterly  inconsistent  with  allegiance  to 
a  Protestant  government,  from  their  oaths  and 
obligations,  to  which  it  gave  them  not  onW  a 
release,  but  a  crown  of  glory,  as  the  reward  of 
treachery  and  treason. 

It  was  indeed  with  astonishment,  that  I 
heard  the  Attorney  General  stigmatize  those 
wise  regulations  of  our  patriot  ancestors  with 
the  title  of  factious  and  cruel  impositions 
on  the  consciences  and  liberties  of  their  fel- 
low-citizens.—Gentlemen,  they  were  at  the 


597] 


f&r  J^k  Treason. 


A.  D.  1781. 


[598 


time  wise  and  salutary  regulations;  renila- 
tions  to  which  this  country  owes  its  freeaom, 
and  his  majesty  liis  crown ; — a  crown  which 
he  wears  under  the  strict  entail  of  professing 
and  protecting  that  religion  which  they  were 
made  to  repress; — and  which  I  know  mv 
noble  friend  at  the  bar  joins  with  me,  and  with 
alljgood  men,  in  wishing,  that  he  and  his  pos- 
teniy  may  wear  for  ever. 

It  is  not  my  purpose  to  recall  to  your  minds 
the  &tal  effects,  which  bigotry  has  in  former 
days  produced  in  this  island.  I  will  not  follow 
the  example  the  crown  has  set  me,  by  making 
an  attack  on  your  passions,  on  subjects  foreign 
to  the  object  before  you ; — ^I  will  not  call  your 
attention  from  those  Hames^  kindled  by  a  vil- 
lainous banditti  (which  they  have  thought  fit, 
in  defiance  of  evidence,  to  introduce),  by 
bringing  before  your  eyes  the  more  cruel 
flames,  m  which  the  bodies  of  our  expiring, 
meek,  patient.  Christian  fathers,  were  little 
more  than  two  centuries  ago  consuming  in 
Smithfield ; — I  will  not  call  up  from  the  graves 
of  martyrs  all  the  precious  holy  blood  that  has 
been  spilt  in  this  land  to  save  its  established 

Sivemment  and  its  reformed  religion,  from 
e  secret  villainy,  and  the  open  force  of  Pa^ 
pists ; — ^the  cause  does  not  stand  in  need  even 
of  such  honest  arts,  and  I  feel  my  hpart  too 
bis,  voluntarily  to  recite  such  scenes,  when  I 
rraect  that  ^me  of  my  own,  and  my  best  and 
dearest  progenitors,  from  whom  I  glory  to  be 
descended,  ended  their  innocent  lives  m  pri- 
sons and  in  exile  only  becaiue  they  were  J?ro- 
tettantt. 

Gentlemen,  whether  the  great  lights  of 
science  and  of  commerce,  which  since  those 
disgraceful  times  have  illuminated  Europe, 
may,  by  dispelling  these  shocking  prejudices, 
have  rendered  the  Papists  of  this  aay  as  safe 
end  trusty  subjects  as  those,  who  conform  to 
the  naticmal  religion  established  by  hiw,  I 
ahall  not  take  upon  me  to  determine ; — ^it  is 
-wholly  unconnected  with  the  present  uKjuiiy : 
—we  are  not  trying  a  question  either  Ot  divi- 
nity, or  civil  policy ;  and  I  shall  therefore  not 
enter  at  all  into  the  motives  or  merits  of  the 
act,  that  produced  the  Protestant  petition  to 
parliament :  it  was  certainly  introduced  by 
persons  who  cannot  be  named  by  any  good 
citizen  without  aiiection  and  respect :  but  tkU 
I  will  say,  without  fear  of  contradiction — ^^t 
it  was  sudden  and  unexpected; — ^that  it  passed 
with  uncommon  precipitation,  considering  the 
magnitude  of  the  object ; — that  it  underwent 
no  discussion ;— and  that  the  heads  of  the 
church,  the  constitotional  guardians  of  the 
national  religion,  were  never  consulted  upon 
it. — Under  such  circumstances  it  is  no  wonder 
.that  many  sincere  Protestants  were  alarmed; 
and  they  had  a  right  to  spread  their  apprehen- 
sions; It  is  the  privilege  and  the  duty  of  all 
the  subjects  of  England  to  watch  over  their 
religious  and  ctviliiberties,  and  to  approach 
either  their  representatives  or  th^  throne  with 
their  fears  and  their  complaints, — a  privilege 
which  has  been  bought  with  the  dearest  blood 


i 


of  our  ancestors,  and  which  is  confirmed  to  us 
by  law,  as  our  ancient  birthright  and  inhe- 
ntance. 

Soon  after  the  repeal  of  the  act,  the  Protes- 
tant Association  began,  and  from  small  begin- 
nings extended  over  England  and  Scothmd. — 
A  deed  of  association  was  signed,  by  ail  legal 
means  to  oppose  the  growth  of  Popery ;  and 
which  of  the  advocates  for  the  crown  will 
stand  up,  and  say,  that  such  an  union  was 
illegal?  Their  union  was  perfectly  constitu- 
tiomd ; — ^there  was  no  obligation  of  secrecy ; 
— ^their  transactions  were  all  public ; — a  com- 
mittee was  appointed  for  reeularity  and  cor- 
respondence ; — and  circular  letters  were  sent 
to  all  the  dignitaries  of  the  church,  invitins 
them  to  join  with  them  in  the  protection  ol 
the  national  religion: 

All  this  happened  before  lord  George  Gor- 
don- was  a  member  of,  or  the  most  distantly 
connected  with  it ;  for  it  was  not  till  Novem- 
ber 1779,  that  the' London  Association  made 
him  an  offer  of  their  chair,  by  an  unanimous 
resolution  communicated  to  him,  unsought  and 
unexpected^  in  a  public  letter  signed  by  the 
secretary  in  the  name  of  the  whole  body ;  and 
from  that  day  to  the  day  he  was  committed  to 
the  Tower,  I  will  lead  him  by  the  hand  in 
your  view,  Uiat  you  may  see  there  is  no  blame 
in  him.  Though  all  his  behaviour  waa  unre- 
served and  public,  and  though  watehed  by 
wicked  men  for  purposes  of  vengeance,  the 
crown  has  totally  faued  in  giving  it  such  a 
ccmtext,  as  can  justify,  in  the  mind  of  any 
reasonable  man,  the  conclusion  it  seeks  to 
establish. 

This  will  fully  appear  hereaf^r;  but  let  us 
firbt  attend  to  the  evidence  on  the  part  of  the 
crown. 

The  first  witness  to  support  this  prosecu- 
tion is,   ^ 

Williahi  Hay— a  bankrupt  in  fortune  he 
acknowledged  himself  to  be,  and  I  am  afraid 
he  is  a  bankrupt*  :n-roiuc»ence.  Such  a  scene 
of  impudent,  ridiculous  inconsistency,  would 
have  utterly  .destroyed  his  credibility,  in  the 
most  triflihg  civil  suit ;  and  I  am,  therefore, 
almost  ashamed  to  remind  you  of  his  evidence, 
when  I  reflect  that  you  will  never  suffer  it  to 
glance  across  your  minds  on  this  solemn  oc- 
casion. 

This  man,  whom  I  may  now,  without  of- 
fence or  slander,  point  out  to  yoa  as  a  dark 
Popish  spy,  who  attended  the  meetings  of  the 
London  Association,  to  pervert  their  harmless 
purj>oses,;  conscious  that  the  discovery  of  his 
character  would  invalidate  all  his  testimony, 
endeavoured  at  first  to  conceal  the  activity  of 
his  zeal,  by  denying  that  he  had  seen  any  of 
the  destructive  scenes  imputed  to  the  Protes- 
tants ;  yet  almost  in  the  same  breath  it  came 
out,  by  his  own  confession,  that  there  was 
hardly  a  place,  public  or  private,  where  riot 
had  erected  her  standard,  in  which  h^  had  not 
been ;  nor  a  house,  prison,  or  chs^el,  that  was 
destroyed,  to  the  demolition  of  which  he  had 
not  been  a  witness.-*He  was  at  Newgate,  and 


dSSf} 


21  GEOEGE  IIL      Proceedings  against  Lord  George  Gordon,     [600 


the  Fleet,  at  Langdale's,  aod  it  Cdeman- 
fitreet; — at  the  Sardinian  ambasaador'Sy  and 
in  Great  Queen-street,  lincolnVInn-fieMs. 
What  took  him  to  CoBchmakers'-hall?— He 
went  there,  as  he  told  118,  to  watch  their  pro- 
ceedings, because  be  expected  no  good  from 
them;  apd  to  justify  his  projdiecy  of  evil,  he 
said,  on  his  examination  by  the  crown,  thai 
as  eariy  as  Decembo-  he  had  heard  some 
alarminff  republican  lansuage.  What  lan- 
guage (fid  he  remember  r-— <<  Why,  that  the 
*^  Lord  Advocate  of  Scotland  was  <»Hed  only 
^  Habry  Dundas/'*  Finding  this  too  ridi- 
culous for  so  grave  an  occasion,  he  endea- 
voured to  put  some  words  about  the  breach  of 
the  king's  coronation  oath  into  the  prisoner's 
mouth,  OS  proceeding  from  hmieW;  which  it 
is  notorious  he  read  out  of  an  old  Scotch  book, 
{mblished  near  a  century  ago,  on  the  abdica- 
tion of  king  James  the  9d. 

Attend  to  his  cross-examination:  he  was 
ture  he  had  seen  lord  George  Gordon  at 
Greenwood's  room  in  January;  but  when  Mr. 
Kenyon,  who  knew  lord  Georse  had  neoer 
been  there,  advised  him  toreooUect  himself, 
he  desired  to  consult  his  notes. — First,  he  is 
positively  sure,  firom  his  memory,  that  he  had 
seen  him  there:  then  he  says  he  cannot 
trust  his  memory  without  referring  to   his 

Eapers ;  on  looking  at  them,  they  contradict 
im;  and  be  then  confesses,  that  he  neTter 
saw  lord  Georee  Gordon  at  Greenwood's  room 
in  January,  when  his  note  was  taken,  nor  ai 
any  other  time. — ^But  n>l^  did  he  take  notes  ? — 
He  sud  it  was,  because  he  foresaw  what 
would  happen. — How  fortunate  the  crown  is, 
gentlemen,  to  have  such  friends  to  collect 
evidence  by  anticipation !  When  did  he  begin 
to  take  notes  ?— He  said  on  the  «lst  of  Fe- 
bruary, which  was  the/rsf  time  he  had  been 
alarmed  at  what  he  had  seen  and  heard^  al- 
though not  a  minute  before  he  had  been  read- 
ing a  note  taken  at  Greenwood's  room  in 
January,  and  had  sworn  that  he  attended  their 
meetings,  from  aporehensions  of  conse- 
quences, as  early  as  December. 

Mr.  Kenyon,  who  now  saw  him  bewildered 
in  a  maze  of  falsehood,  and  suspecting  his 
notes  to  have  been  a  villanous  fiibrication  to 
give  the  show  of  coirectness  to  his  evidence, 
attacked  him  with  a  shrewdness  for  wbkh  he 
was  wholly  unprepared*— You  remember  the 
witness  had  said,  that  he  always  took  notes 
when  he  attended  any  meetings  where  he  ex- 
pected their  deliberations  mi^t  be  attended 
with    dangerous  consecjuences.     *  One  me 

*  one  instance^   says   Mr.  Kenyon,    '  in  the 

*  wholeceurte  of  your  life^where  you  evertook 

*  notes  before.'  Poor  Mr.  Hay  was  thunder- 
struck  ;--4he  sweat  ran  down  his  face,  and 
his  countenance  bespoke  despair, — ^not  recol- 
lection: ^  Sir,  I  must  have  an  instance;  tell 
roe  when  and  where?"  Gentlemen,  it  was 
now  too  late ;  tome  instance  he  was  obliged  to 

*  S«e  Irii  Case  wbeD  Lord  MthiUt,  a.  o.  1906, 
ia  tUt  CoUectioo. 

§ 


S 


ve,  and,  as  it  was  evident  to  every  body  that 
e  luul  one  still  to  choose,  I  thmk  he  mi^ 
have  chosen  a  better.  He  had  taken  notes  at 
the  General  Assembly  of  the  church  ofScotUtmd 
ux'-and'twenty  years  brfore.  What!  did  he 
apprehend  danserous  consequences  from  the 
ddiberatLoiis  of  die  grave  elders  pf  the  kiik  9 
— ^Were  thet  leyyins  war  against  tiie  king  f 
At  last,  when  he  is  caSed  upon  to  say  to  whom 
he  communicated  die  intelligence  he  had  col- 
lected, die  spv  stood  conmsed  indeed:  at 
first  he  refiised  to  tell,  sayine  he  was  his 
fHend,  and  that  he  was  not  obliged  to  eive 
him  up :  and  when  forced  at  last  to  speak,  it 
came  out  to  be  Mr.  Butler,  a  gendeman  uni- 
versally known,  and  who,irom  what  I  imow 
of  him,  I  may  be  sure  never  employed  him,  or 
any  other  spy,  because  he  is  a  man  every  way 
respectable,  but  who  certainly  is  not  only  a 
Papist,  but  the  person  who  was  employed,  in 
all  dieir  proceedmgs,  to  obtain  the  late  indul* 
gencies  from  parliament. — ^He  said  Btr.  Butler 
was  his  particular  friend,  yet  professed  him- 
self  ignorant  of  his  religion. — ^I  am  sure  be 
could  not  be  desired  to  conceal  it;— Mr.  But* 
ler  makes  no  secret  of  his  religion ; — ^itis  no 
reproach  to  any  man  who  tives  the  life  he 
does ;  but  Mr.  Hay  thought  it  of  moment  ts 
his  osDn^  credit  in  the  cause,  that  he  himse^ 
mi^ht  be  Uiooght  a  Protestant,  unconneetei 
witn  Papists,  and  not  a  Popish  spy. 

So  ambitious,  indeed,  was  the  miscreant  of 
being  useflil  ih  this  odious  character,  through 
every  stage  of  the  cause,  that  after  staying  a 
little  in  St.  George' s-fields,  he  ran  home  to 
his  own  house  in  St.  Dunstan's  churchyard, 
and  got  upon  the  leads,  where  he  swore  he 
saw  the  very  satne  man  canrying  the  very  same 
flag  he  had  seen  in  the  fiekls.  Gentlemen^ 
whether  the  petitioners  employed  the  saaoe 
standard-man  dirough  the  whole  course  of 
their  peaceable  processkm  is  certainly  totally 
immaterial  to  the  caUse,  but  tlfl^rcumstance 
is  material  to  show  the  wickedness  of  the  maa. 

*  How,*  says  Mr.  Kenyon,  •  do  you  knjw 

*  that  it  was  the  same  person  you  saiw  in  thi 

*  fields.^ — ^Were  you  acquainted  with  him?*— 
«  No.'— How  then?— Why,  *  he  looked  like 

*  a  brewer's  servant.'  LiJ^  a  tteufer^s  ssroeati 
^Wliat,  were  they  not  all  in  their  Sunday;! 
clothes?—*  Oh!  yes,  they  were  aU  in  tbea 
'  Sunday's  clothes.'  Was  the  man  with  the  flag 
then  alone  in  the  dtess  of  his  trade  ?— *  No.'-^ 
Then  how  do  you  know  he  was  a  brewert 
servant?— Poor  Mr.  Hay--nothing  butsmt^ 
and  confusion  again.  At  last,  after  a  hwi*** 
don,  which  every  body  thought  would  hajre 
ended  inOiisruimhigoutof  court,heaaid,ht 
knew  him  to  be  a  brewer's  servant,  *«J** 
there  was  something  particular  in  thecsUcfhis 
coat,  the  cut  of  his  breeches,  avf>  wa  cur  or 

BIS  STOCKIKOS. 

You  see,  gendemeB,by  what8tmngem«»» 
villany  is  sometimes  detected;  perhaps  *« 
might  have  escaped  from  me,  but  he  «» 
under  that  shrewdness  and  sagacity,  wtaeft 
ability,  without  long  hafaiti»|  docs  not  ftomoe. 


601] 


fijir  High  Tretuon» 


A.  D.  1781. 


[ins 


GenUemeBy  you  wiU  not,  I  am  sa9t,  forget, 
whenever  you  see  a  man,  jboift  whose  apparel 
there  is  any  thing  paitkidftr,  to  set  hun  oown 
for  a  brewer's  servant. 

Mr.  Hay  afterwarda  went  to  the  lobby  of 
the  House  of  Commcms.  What  took  him 
there  ?«-He  thought  himself  in  danger ;  and 
therefore^  says  Mr.  Renyon,  you  thrust  your- 
self Yohmtanly  into  the  very  oefttre  of  dbmser. 
Tkmi  womld  net  de^^Then  he  had  ^jmrticuUr 
/riendj  whom  he  knew  to  be  in  the  lobby,  and 
whom  he  apprehended  to  be  in  danger.— 
^  Sir,  who  was  that  pariacdar  firiend  ?— Out 
with  it : — Give  us  his  name  instantly." — AU 
m-confuiUm  again.  Not  a  word  to  mfor  him- 
wtif:  and  the  name  afthispenon^  who  had  the 
honour  of  Mr,  Ho^9  friendehiipy  witt  frobabUf 
remain  a  ieeretfor  ever. 

It  may  be  asked,  are  these  oircumMances 
material  ?  and  the  answer  is  obvious : — They 
▲as  MATERIAL ;  becsuse  when  you  see  a  wit- 
ness running  into  every  hole  and  comer  of 
fidaehood,  and  as  fast  as  he  is  made  to  bolt 
out  of  one,  taking  cover  in  another,  you  will 
never  giv?e  credit  to  what  that  man  rdates,  as 
to  any  possible  matter  which  is  to  afiect  the 
life  or  reputation  of  a  fellow-citizen  acoised 
before  you.  God  forbid  that  you  should.— I 
might  tiierefore  get  rid  of  this  wretch  altoge- 
ther, without  making  a  single  remark  on  that 
part  of  his  testimony,  whicn  bears  upon  the 
issue  you  are  trying;  but  the  crown  shall 
have  the  fuU  benefit  of  it  all ;  I  wiU  defraud  it 
of  nothing  he  has  said. — ^Notwithstanding  all 
bis  follv  and  wickedness,  let  us  for  the  pre- 
sent take  it  to  be  true,  and  see  what  it 
amounts  to.  What  is  it  he  states  to  have 
passed  at  Coachmakers'-hall  ?— That  lord 
George  Gordon  desired  the  multitode  to  be- 
have with  unanimity  and  firmness,  as  the 
Scotch  had  done.  Gentlemen,  there  is  no 
manner  of  doubt  that  the  Scotch  behaved  with 
unanimity  and  firmness,  in  resisting  the  re- 
laaation  of  the  penal  laws  against  Papists, 
and  that  by  that  unanimity  ana  firmness  tiiey 
succeeded ; — ^but  it  was  w  the  constitutional 
unanimitv  and  firmness  of  the  great  body  of 
the  people  of  Scotland,  whose  example  IcHrd 
Geoige  Gordon  recommended,  and  not  by  the 
nets  and  burnings  which  they  attempted  to 
prove  had  been  committed  in  Edinlwgh  in 
2778. 

I  will  teUyou  myself,  gentlemen,  as  one  of 
the  peonle  of  Scotland,  that  there  then  existed, 
and  still  exist,  eighty-five  societies  of  Protes- 
tants^ vdio  have  been,  and  still  are,  uniformly 
finn  m  opposing  every  change  in  Uiat  system 
of  lawa^  e^tabliwed  to  secure  the  Revolution, 
and  parliament  gave  way  in  Scotland  to  their 
united  voice,  and  not  to  thefiiebrandsof  the 
rabble.  It  is  the  duty  of  parliament  to  listen 
to  the  v<nce  of  the  people ; — ^for  Uiey  are  thie 
servants  of  the  people ;  and  when  the  consti- 
tution of  church  or  state  is  believed,  whether 
truly  or  fiilsely,  to  be  in  danger,  I  hope  there 
iiever  will  be  wanting  men  (notwithstanding 
the  proceedings  of  t<^>day)  to  desire  ^  peo- 


ple to  persevere  and  be,  firm.  Gentlemen, 
lias  the  crown  proved,  that  the  Protestant 
brethren  of  the  London  Association  fired  the 
mass-houses  in  Scotland,  or  acted  in  rebeU 
lious  opposition  to  law,  so  as  to  entitle  it  to 
wrest  the  piisoner's  eapressioiis  into  an  ex- 
citation of  rebellioA  against  the  state,  or  of 
violence  against  the  properties  of  -English 
Papists,  by  setting  up  their  firmness  as  an 
example  ?--Certainiy  not.  They  have  not 
even  noved  the  naked  fact  of  such  violencea, 
though  such  proof  would  have  called  for  no 
resistance,  since,  to  make  it  bear  as  rebeUioua 
advioe  to  the  Protestant  Association  of  Lon* 
don,  it  must  have  been  first  shown,  that  such 
acts  had  been  perpetrated  or  encouraged  by 
the  Protestant  Societies  in  the  North. 

Who  has  dared  to  sav  this } — No  man.— « 
The  rabble  in  Scotland  certainly  did  that 
which  has  since  been  done  by  the  mbble  in 
England,  to  the  disgrace  and  reproach  of  both 
countries;  but  in  neither  country  was  there 
found  one  man  of  character  or  condition,  of 
any  description,  who  abetted  such  enormities, 
nor  anv  man,  high  or  low,  of  any  of  the  as* 
sociated  Protestants  here  or  there,  who  were 
cither  convicted,  tried,  or  taken  on  suspicion. 

As  to  what  tms  man  heard,  on  the  S9Ch  of 
May,  it  was  nothing  more  than  the  proposi^ 
tion  of  going  up  in  a  body  to  St.  Geoi^e's- 
fields,  to  consider  how  the  Petition  should  be 
presented,  with  the  same  exhortations  to 
firmness  as  before.  The  resolution  made  on 
the  motion  has  been  read ;  and  when  I  come 
to  state  the  evidence  on  the  part  of  my  noble 
friend,  I  will  show  you  the  impossibility  tii 
"Supporting  any  criminal  inference,  from  what 
Mr.  Hay  afterwards  puts  in  his  mouth  in  the 
lobby,  even  taking  it  to  be  true.  I  wish  here 
to  be  aocumie  UoSu  on  a  card  on  which  he  had 
taken  down  his  words] ;  He  says :  *  Lord . 
'  George  Gordon  desired  them  to  continue  sted- 
*fastly  to  adhere  to  so  good  a  cause  as  theirs 

*  was ;    promised  to  perseoere  in  it  himselfy  and 
'  hopedy  though  there  was  little  expectation  at 

*  present  from  the  House  of  Commons^  that  thmf 

*  soould  meet  with  redreufrom  their  mild  and 

*  ORACious  sovfiSFjOK,  o'Ao,  no  doubtf  would 
'  recommend  it  to  his  ministers  to  repeal  it  J 
This  was  dl  he  heard,  and  I  will  show  yon 
how  this  wicked  man  himself  (if  any  belief  is 
to  be  given  to  him)  entirely  overturns  and 
brings  to  the  ground  the  evidence  cff  Mr. 
Bovi^,  on  which  the  crown  rests  singly  for 
the  proof  of  words  which  are  more  difhcult  to 
explain.  Gentlemen,  was  this  the  langua«;e 
of  rebellion? — If  a  multitude  were  at  the 
gates  of  the  House  of  Commons,  to  command 
and  insist  on  a  repeal  of  this  law, — ^why  en- 
courace  their  ho^s,  by  reminding  them  that 
they  had  a  mild  aad  gracious  soverei^? — If 
war  was  levying  against  him,  there  xvas  no 
occasion  for  his  mildness  and  gradousness. 
If  he  had  said.  Be  firm  and  perseoerey  we  shall 
meet  with  redress  ^prom  the  prudence  of  the 
sovereign,  it  might  have  borne  a  difiicrent 
conetnictioQ ;  becausOi  whether  he  was  gra* 


N 


603] 


21  GEORGE  III.      Proceedingi  agaiiui  Lord  George  Gordon^      [604: 


dous  or  severe,  his  prudence  might  lead  him 
to  submit  to  the  necessity  of  the  times.  The 
words  sworn  to  were,  therefore,  perfectly  clear 
and  unambiguous — Fertevere  in  your  Zealand 
supplicaticnSf  and  you  will  meet  tntk  rtdreta 
Jrom  a  mild  and  gracious  kingy  who  will  recom- 
mend  it  to  his  minister  to  repeal  it.  Good 
God !  if  they  were  to  wait  till  the  kine,  whe- 
ther from  benevolence  or  fear,  should  direct 
his  minister  to  influence  the  proceedings  of 
parliament,  how  does  it  square  with  the 
charge  of  instant  coercion  or  intimidation  of 
the  nouse  of  Commons  f — If  the  multitucfe 
were  assembled  with  the  premeditated  design 
of  producing  immediate  repeal  by  tenor  or 
arms,  is  it  possible  to  suppose,  that  their 
leader  would  desire  them  to  be  auiet,  and 
refer  them  to  those  qualities  of  tne  prince, 
wMch,  however  eminently  they  might  oelong 
to  him,  never  could  be  exerted  on  subjects  in 
rebellion  to  his  authority  ? — In  what  a  laby- 
rinth of  nonsense  and  contradiction  do  men 
involve  themselves,  when,  forsaking  the  rules 
of  evidence,  they  would  draw  conclusions 
from  words  in  contradiction  to  language,  and 
in  defiance  of  common  sense ! 

The  next  witness  that  is  called  to  you  by 
the  crown  is  Mr.  Metcalf.  He  was  not  in  the 
lobby,  but  speaks  only  to  the  meeting  in 
Coachmakers'  Hall,  on  the  29th  of  May,  and 
in  St.  GeoreeVfields.  He  says,  that  at  the 
former,  lord  George  reminded  Uiem,  that  the 
Scotch  bad  succeed  by  their  unanimity; — 
and  hoped  that  no  one,  who  had  sizned  the 
Petition,  would  be  ashamed  or  afraiato  show 
himself  in  the  cause  ;— that  he  was  ready  to 
go  to  the  gallows  for  it ; — ^t^t  he  would  not 
present  the  petition  of  a  lukewarm  people ; — 
that  he  desired  them  to  come  to  St.  George's- 
fields,  distinguished  with  blue  cockades,  and 
that  they  should  be  marshalled  in  four  divi- 
sions. Then  he  speaks  to  having  seen  them 
in  the  fields,  in  the  order  which  has  been  pre- 
scribed ;  and  lord  George  Gordon  in  a  coach, 
surrounded  with  a  vast  concourse' of  people, 
with  blue  ribbons,  fomiine  tike  soldiers,  out 
was  not  near  enough  to  near,  whether  the 
nrisoner  spoke  to  them  or  not.  Such  is  Mr, 
Afetcalfs  evidence, — and  after  the  attention 
you  have  honoured  me  with,  and  which  I 
shall  have  occasion  so  often  to  ask  again  on 
the  same  subject,  I  shall  trouble  you  with 
but  one  observation,  viz.  that  it  cannot,  with- 
out absurditv,  be  supposed,  that  if  tJbe  assem- 
bly at  Coachmakers'-hall  had  been  such  con- 
spirators as  they  are  represented,  their  doors 
would  have  been  open  to  strangers,  like  this 
witness,  to  come  in,  tc^report  their  proceed- 

The  next  witness  is  Mr.  Anstkuthsb,  who 
speaks  to  the  language  and  deportment  of  the 
noble  prisoner,  both  at  Coachmakers'-hall  on 
the  30th  of  May,  and  aflerwards  on  the  2d  of 
June,  in  the  lobby  of  the  House  of  Commons. 
It  will  be  granted  to  me,  I  am  sure,  even  by 
the  advocates  of  the  crown,  that  this  gentle- 
man, not  only  fiom  the  clearness  m  con- 


sistency of  his  testimonv,  but  from  lus  rank 
J  and  character  in  the  world,  is  infinitely  more 
'  worthy  of  credit  than  Mr.  Hay,  who  went  be- 
,  fore  him ;  and  if  the  circumstances  of  irritation 
and  confusion  under  which  the  rev.  Mr.Bowen 
confessed  himself  to  have  heard  and  seen  what 
he  told  ^ou  he  heard  and  saw,  be  considered, 
I  may  likewise  assert,  ^thout  any  offence  to 
the  reverend  gentleman,  and  vrithout  drawing 
an^r  parallel  between  their  credits,  that  where 
their  accounts  of  this  transaction  difiier,  the 
preference  is  due  to  the  former.    Mr.  Anstni- 
ther  verv  properly  prefaced  his  evidence  with 
this  declaration :   *  Ido  not  mean  to  speak  ac" 
'  curately  to  words;  it  is  impotsible  to  recollect 
'  them  at  this  distance  of  time.*    I  believe  I 
have  used  his  very  expression,  and  such  ex- 
pression it  well  beoune  him  to  use  in  a  cose 
of  blood.    But  Words,  even  if  they  could  be 
accurately  remembered,  are  to  be  admitted 
with  great  reserve  and  caution^  when  the  pur- 
pose of  the  speaker  is  to  be   measured  by 
them. — ^They  are  transient  and  fleeting ;  fre- 
quently the  effect  of  a  sudden  transport,--- 
easily  misunderstood, — and   often  unconsci- 
ously misrepresented. — It  may  be  the  fate  of 
the  most  innocent  language,  to  appear  ambi- 
guous, or  even  malignant  when  related  in 
mutilated  detached  passaees,  by  people  to 
whom  it  is  not  addressed,  and  who  know 
nothing  of  the  previous  design,  either  of  the 
speaker,  or  of  those  to  whom  he  spoke.    Mr. 
Anstruther  says,  that  he  heard  lord  George 
Gordon  desire  the  petitioners  to  meet  him  on 
the  Friday  following  in  SL  GeorgeVfields, 
and  that  if  there  were  fewer  than  SO^OOO  peo- 
ple, he  would  not  present  the  Petition,  as  it 
would  not  be  of  consequence  enough ; — and 
that  he  reconunended  to  them  the  example 
of  the  Scotch,  who,  by  their  firmness,  had  car- 
ried their  point. 

Gentlemen,  I  have  already  admitted  that 
they  did  by  furmness  carry  it.  But  has  Mr. 
Anstruther  attempted  to  state  any  one  ex- 
pression, that  fell  from  the  prisoner,  to  justify 
the  positive  unerrine  conclusion,  or  even  the 
presumption,  that  tne  firmness  of  the  Scotch 
Protestants,  by  which  the  point  was  carried 
in  Scotland,  vms  the  resistance  and  riots  of  the 
rabble V'-Noy  gentlemen;  he  singly  states 
the  words,  as  he  heard  them  in  the  Hail,  on 
the  39th,  and  all  that  he  afterwards  speaks 
to  in  tfaue  lobby  repels  so  harsh  and  dan^rous 
a  construction.  Tne  words  sworn  to  at  Coach- 
makers -hall  are, '  that  he  reconmiended  tein- 
*  perance  and  firmness.*— Gentlemen,  if  his 
motives  are  to  be  judged  -  by  words,  for  Hea- 
ven's sake  let  these  words  carry  their  popular 
meaning  in  laneuage.  Is  it -to  be  presumed, 
without  proof,  that  a  man  means  one  thuig, 
because  he  says  another  f — ^Does  the  exhorta- 
tion of  temperance  and  firmness  apply  most 
naturally,  to  the  constitutional  resistance  of 
the  E^testants  of  Scotland,  or  to  the  outrages 
of  ruffians  who  pulled  dovm  the  houses  of 
their  neighbours?— Is  it  possible,  with  de- 
cency, to  say  in  a  court  of  justicey  that  h» 


605] 


Jar  High  Treaam* 


A.  D.  1781. 


[608 


recommendation  of  temperance  is  the  excita-  \ 
tion  to  vilkny  and  frenzy }  But  the  words,  it 
seems,  are  to  be  construed,  not  from  their 
own  signification,  but  from  that  which  follows 
them,  viz.  6y  that  the  Scotch  carried  their 
point.  Gentlemen,  h  it  in  evidence  before 
you,  that  by  rebellion  the  Scotch  carried  their 
point ;  or  that  the  indulgences  to  Papists  were 
not  extended  to  Scotland,  because  the  rabbU 
bad  opposed  their  extension  ? — Has  the  crown  I 
authorized  either  the  court,  or  its  law  servants,  I 
to  tell  you  so  ? — Or  can  it  be  decently  main- 
tained, that  parliament  was  so  weak  or  infa^ 
mous,  as  to  yield  to  a  wretched  mob  of  vaga- 
bonds at  Edinburgh,  what  it  has  since  re- 
fused to  the  earnest  prayers  of  an  hundred 
thousand  Protestants  m  London? — ^No,  gen- 
tlemen of  the  jury,  parliament  ¥ras  not,  I 
hope,  so  abandoned.  —  But  the  ministers 
knew,  that  ^e  Protestants  in  Scotland  were, 
to  a  man,  abhorrent  of  that  law ;  and  though 
they  never  held  out  resistance,  if  government 
shcnild  be  disposed  to  cram  it  down  their 
throats  by  force,  yet  such  a  violence  to  the 
united  sentiments  of  a  whole  people  appeared 
to  be  a  measure  so  obnoxious,  so  dangerous, 
and  withal  so  unreasonable,  that  it  was  wisely 
and  judiciously  dropped,  to  satisfy  the  gene- 
ral wishes  of  the  nation,  and  not  to  avert  the 
venseance  of  those  low  incendiaries,  whose 
misdeeds  have  rather  been  talked  of  than 
proved. 

Thus,  gentlemen,  the  exculpation  of  lord 
George's  conduct,  on  the  29th  of  May,  is  suf- 
ficiently established  by  the  very  evidence,  on 
which  the  crowp  ask  you  to  convict  him : — 
since  in  recommending  temperance  and  firm- 
nets  after  the  example  of  Scotland,  you  cannot 
be  justified  in  prunouncine,  that  he  meant 
more  than  the  firmness  of  the  grave  and  re- 
spectable people  in  that  country,  to  whose 
constitutional  firmness  the  legislature  had 
before  acceded,  instead  of  branding  it  with 
the  title  of  rebellion ;  and  who,  in  my  mind, 
deserve  thanks  from  the  king,  for  temperate- 
ly and  firmly  resisting  every  innovation, 
which  they  conceived  to  be  dangerous  to  the 
national  religion,  independently  of  which  his 
majesty  (without  a  new  limitation  by  parlia- 
ment) has  no  more  title  to  the  crown  tnan  I 
have. 

Such,  gentlemen,  is  the  whole  amount  of 
all  my  noble  friend's  previous  communica^ 
tions  with  the  petitioners,  whom  he  after- 
wards assemblea  to  consider,  how  their  Peti- 
tion should  be  presented.  This  is  all,  not 
only  that  men  of  credit  can  tell  you  on  the 
part  of  the  prosecution,  but  all  that  even  the 
worst  vagabond,  who  ever  appeared  in  a 
court, — ^the  very  scum  of  the  earth,— thought 
himself  safe  in  saying,  upon  oath,  on  the  pre- 
sent occasion.  '  Indeed,  gentlemen,  when  I 
consider  my  noble  fiiena's  situation,  his  open, 
unreserved  temper,  and  his  wann  and  ani- 
mated zeal  for  a  cause,  which  rendered  him 
obnoxious  to  so  many  wicked  men; — sp^tk- 
iDg  daily  and  publicly  to  mixed  multitudes  of 


firiends  and  foes,  on  a  subject  which  affected 
his  passions,  I  confess,  I  am  astonished  that 
no  other  expressions,  than  those  in  evidence 
before  you,  have  found  their  way  into  this 
court — 'That  they  have  not  found  their  way 
is  surely  a  most  satisfactory  proof  that  there 
was  notninv  in  his  heart,  which  even  youth* 
fid  zeal  could  magnify  into  guilt,  or  that  want 
of  caution  could  betray. 

Gentlemen,  Mr.  Anstruther's  evidence, 
when  he  speaks  of  the  lobby  of  the  House 
of  Commons,  is  very  much  to  be  attended  to. 
He  says,  '  I  saw  lord  George  leaning  over  the 

*  gallery^'  which  position,  joined  witli  wtiat 
he  mentioned  of  his  talking  with  the  chap- 
lain, marks  the  time,  and  casts  a  strong  douot 
on  Bowen's  testimony,  which  you  will  find 
stands,  in  this  only  material  part  of  it,  single 
and  unsupported.  *  I  then  heard  him,  con- 
tinues Mr.  Anstruther,  '  teU  them,  they  had 
*.been  called  a  mob,  in  the  Houses  and  that 

*  peace  officers  had  been  sent  to  disperse  them 
'  peaceable  petUiopers :    but  that  by  steadineu 

*  and  firmness  they  might  earrytheir  point ;  of 
'  he  had  no  doubt  his  majesty,  who  was  d  grap* 

*  cious  prince,  would  send  to  his  ministers  to 
'  repeal  the  act,  when  he  heard  his  subjects  were 

*  coming  up  for  ndles  round,  and  wishing  its 
'  repeals  How  coraine  up  ? — In  rebellion  and 
arms  to  compel  it  ?— No  ] — All  is  still  put  on 
the  gradousness  of  the  sovereign,  in  listenii^ 
to  the  unanimous  wishes  of  his  people.  If 
the  multitude  then  assembled  had  been 
brought  tc^ether  to  intimidate  the  House  by 
their  firmness,  or  to  coerce  it  by  their  num- 
bers, it  was  ridiculous  to  look  forward  to  the 
king's  influence  over  it,  when  the  coUection 
of  future  multitudes  should  induce  him  to 
employ  it.  The  expressions  were  therefore 
quite  unambiguous,  nor  could  malice  itself 
have  suggested  another  construction  of  them, 
were  it  not  for  the  fact,  that  the  House  was 
at  that  time  surrounded,  not  by  the  peti- 
tioners, whom  the  noble  prisoner  had  assem- 
bled, but  by  a  mob  who  had  mixed  with 
them,  and  who  therefore,  when  addressed  by 
him,  were  instantly  set  down  as  his  followers. 
— He  thought  he  was  addressing  the  sob<^ 
members  of  the  Association,  who,  by  steadi- 
ness and  perseverance,  could  understand  no- 
thing more  than  perseverance  in  that  con- 
duct he  bad  antecedently  prescribed,  since 
steadiness  signifies  an  uniformity,  not  a 
change  of  conduct ;  and  I  defy  the  crown  to 
find  out  a  single  expression,  from  the  day  he 
took  ihe  chair  of  the  Association,  to  the  day 
I  am  speaking  of,  that  justifies  any  other 
construction  of  steadiness  and  firmness,  than 
that  which  I  put  upon  it  before.  What  would 
be  the  feelinas  of  our  venerable  ancestors, 
who  framed  the  statute  of  treasons  to  prevent 
their  children  being  drawn  into  the  snares  of 
death,  unless  proveably  convicted  by  overt 
acts,  if  they  could  hear  us  disputing,  whether 
it  was  treason  to  desire  harmless  unarmed 
men  to  be  firm  and  of  good  heart,  and  te 
trust  to  the  g;raciousness  of  their  king  ? 


tXff]  31  GEORGE  III.      Proceediagi  ^;aina  Lord  George  Gordon,     [601 

Here  Mr.  Anstruther  ckses  hia  enukioce, 
whkh  iMidt  me  to  Mr.  BoweDy  who  is  the 
o^  man — 1  ieauth  vqHj  fenilamn  of  the 
jwyy  to  oHen^  t0  tii$  ctrcumitancO'^'Mx, 
Boweft  IS  the  on/vman  who  has  attempled, 
diiectly  or  mdirecUy,  to  say,  that  lord  Oeof;^ 
Gordon  uttered  a  syUahle  to  the  muitilude  in 
the  lobhj,  ooBcemiBg  the  destruction  of  the 
mass-houses  in  Scotland. — ^Not  one  of  the 
cfown*s  witnesseiL  not  even  the  wretched 
•bafidoned  Hay,  who  was  kept,  as  he  said,  in 
lAie  lobby,  the  whole  afternoon,  from  aaxiety 
tor  his  pretended  friend,  has  e^r  glanced  at 
any  expression  resembline  it. — Thev  all  finish 
with  the  expectation  whidi  he  helci  out,  from 
a  mild  and  gracious  sovereign.  Mr.  Bowen 
AiOKE  goes  on  further,  and  speaks  ef  the  suc- 
cesilul  riots  of  the  Scotch; — ^but  speaks  of 
them  in  such  a  manner,  as,  so  far  mm  con- 
veying the  hostile  idea,  plach  he  seemed  mffU 
tientfy  demem  to  eoavey,  tends  directly  to 
wipe  off  the  dark  hints  and  insinuations, 
which  have  been  made  to  supply  the  place  of 
proof  upon  tha^  subject,— a  subject  which 
should  not  have  been  touched  on,  without 
the  fullest  support  of  evidence,  and  where 
nothing  but  toe  most  unequivocal  evidmce 
ought  to  have  been  received.  He  says,  his 
laraship  began,  by  bidding  them  be  quiet, — 
PEACEABLE^ — and  STEADY— no^  SKody  alone ; 
"-^thoueh  if  that  had  been  the  expression, 
ungly  ty  Ute^i  I  should  not  be  afraid  to  meet 
it;—- but  be  quiet^  peaeeable,  and  st^y. 
Gentlemen,  I  am  mdifferent  what  other  ex« 
presstoas  of  dubious  interpretation  are  mixed 
with  these,  for  you  are  trying  whether  my 
noble  friend  came  to  the  House  of  Commons 
with  a  decidedly  hostile  mind ;  and  as  I  shall, 
on  the  recapitulation  of  our  own  evidence, 
trace  him  in  your  view  without  spot  or  stain, 
down  to  the  very  moment  when  the  impu^ 
words  were  spoken,  you  will  hardly  forsake 
the  whole  innocent  context  of  his  behaviour, 
and  torture  your  inventions  to  collect  the 
blackest  mtem  of  guilt,  starting  up  in  a  mo- 
ment, without  being  previously  concerted,  or 
afterwards  carried  into  execution. 

First,  what  are  the  words  by  whidi  you  ai« 
to  be  convinced,  that  the  legislature  was  to 
be  friehtened  into  compliance,  and  to  be 
coerced  if  terror  should  fail?  <  B0  yt^,— 
'  PEACEABLE^ — and  steady  ; — You  are  a  good 

*  people; — Youn  m  a  good  ctmee: — Hie  ma- 
*jeity  i$  a  GEACious  monarchf  and  when  he 

*  hears  that  all  his  people,  ten  miles  round,  are 

*  collecting^  he  will  send  to  his  ministers  to  re- 

*  peal  the  act.'  By  what  rules  of  construction 
can  such  an  addtess  to  unarmed,  defencdess 
men,  be  tortured  into  treasonable  guilt  ?  It  is 
impossible  to  do  it  without  pronouncing,  even 
in  the  total  absence  of  all  proof  of  iVaud  or 
deeeit  in  the  speaker,  that  quiet  signifies 

TUMULT  AND  UPROAB,  AND  THAT  PEACE  SIO^ 
yiPIES  WAR   AND   REBELLION. 

I  have  before  observed,  ^t  it  was  most 
important  for  you  to  remember,  that  wiUi 
this  exhortation  to  quiet  and  confidence  in 


the  kmg,  the  evidence  of  all  the  other  wiu 
nesses  closed';   even  Mr.  Anstruther,  who 
was  a  long  time  afterwards  in  the  lobby, 
heard  nothmgfiirther;  so  that  if  Mr.  Bowen 
had  been  out  of  the  case  altotether,  what 
wookl  the  amount  have  been  ?-— MT hy  simply, 
that  lord  Geoi{;e  Gordon  having  assembled 
an   imarmed,  moffensive   multitude  in  St 
Gcnige's-fields,  to  present  a  petition  to  parlia^ 
ment,  and  finding  them  becoming  tumuhu- 
ous,  to  the  discontent  of  parliament,  and  the 
disoredit  of  the  cause,  desired  them  not  to 
give  it  up,  but  to  continue  to  shew  their  znl 
for  the  legal  object  in  which  they  were  en- 
gaged;— ^to  mamfest  that  zeal   quietly  and 
peaceably,  and  not  to  despair  of  success;  since, 
though  the  House  was  not  disposed  to  hstcn 
to  it,  they  had  a  gracious  sovereign,  who 
would  second  the  wishes  of  his  people.    This 
is  the  sum  and  substance  of  the  whole.   They 
were  not,  even  by  any  one  ambiguous  expres- 
sion, encouraged  to  trust  to  their  numbers,  as 
sufficient  to  overawe  the  House,  or  to  thev 
strength  to  compel  it,  nor  to  t^e  prudence  of 
the  state  in  yieldins  to  necessity, — but  to  the 
indulgence  if  the  iing,  in  compliance  with 
the  wishes  of  his  people.     Mr.  Bowen  how- 
ever thinks  proper  to  proceed;    and  I  hee 
that  you  will  particularly  attend  to  the  sequu 
of  his  evidence.    He  stands  single,  in  all  the 
rest  that  he  savs,  which  might  entitle  me  to 
ask  you  absolutely  tp  reject  it ; — ^but  I  have 
no  objection  to  your  believins  every  word  of 
it,  if  you  can ;   because,  if  inconsistencies 
prove  any  thing,  they  prove,  that  there  was 
nothing  of  that  deliberation  in  the  prisoner's 
expressions  which  can  justify  the  Interence  of 
guilt    I  mean  to  be  correct  as  to  has  words, 
[looks  at  his  words,  which  he  had  taken  down 
on  a  card.]    He  says^  *  not  lord  George  told 
^  the  people,  that  an  attempt  kad  been  made  to 

*  introduce  the  bill  into  Scotland,  and  that  they 

*  had  no  redress  till  the  maso^ouses  were  pulled 
^  down.    That  lord  Weymouth  then  sent  qfieial 

*  assurances  that  it  should  not  he  extended  te 
'  tAe»/  Gentlemen,  why  is  Mr.  Bowen  called 
bv  the  crown  to  teU  you  this  ?  The  reason  is 
pudn. — ^because  the  crown,  conscious  that  it 
couM  make  no  case  of  treason  fvonx  the  rest 
of  the  evidence,  in  the  sober  judgment  of  law, 
— avrare  that  it  had  proved  no  purpose  or  act 
of  force  against  the  House  of  Commons,  to 
give  countenance  to  the  accusation,  much  less 
to  warrant  a  conviction,  found  it  nocessarv  U» 
hold  up  the  noble  prisoner,  as  the  wicSced 
and  cruel  author  of  all  those  calamities,  in 
which  every  man's  passions  might  be  sup** 
posed  to  come  in  to  assist  his  judgment  to 
decide. — They  tiierefore  made  hiin  spcsak  in 
eniemas  to  the  multitude  (  jnot  telling  them 
to  So  mischief  in  order  to  succeed,  but  tiuit  by 
mischief  in  Scotland  success  had  been  oh* 
tained. 

But  were  the  mischiefs  themselves,  thtd 
did  happen  here,  of  a  sort  to  support  such  con- 
clusion ? — Can  any  man  living,  for  instancy 
believe  that  lord  George  Goraon  could  po^ 


ms] 


Jbr  High  Treason* 


A.  D.  1781. 


[610 


^bly  have  ezdied  tlie  mob  to  destroy  the 
house  of  that  great  and  yenerable  maeistratey 
who  has  presided  so  long  in  this  high  tribu- 
luJy  that  the  oldest  of  us  do  not  remember 
him  with  any  other  impres^on,  than  the  aw- 
fill  form  and  figure  of  justice: — a  magistrate, 
who  had  always  been  the  friend  of  we  Pro- 
testant Dissenter^  aoinst  the  ill-timed  jea- 
lousies of  the  establunment — ^his  countii^rman 
too— and,  without  adverting  to  the  paruahty 
not  unjustly  imputed  to  men  pf  that  countiv, 
a  man  of  whom  any  country  might  be  proud  ? 
— ^No,  gentlemen^  it  is  not  cr^ble,  that  a 
man  of  noble  birth,  and  libehil  education 
(unless  agitated  by  ihe  most  implacable  per- 
sonal resentment,  which  is  not  imputea  to 
the  prisoner)  coiud  possibly  consent  to  the 
bumme  of  the  house  of  lord  Mansfield.* 

If  Mr.  Bowen  therefore  had  ended  here,  I 
can  baldly  conceive  such  a  construction  could 
be  decently  hazarded,  consistent  with  the  tes- 
timony of  the  witnesses  we  have  called ;  how 
much  less,  when,  after  the  dark  insinuations 
which  such  expressions  might  otherwise  have 
been  argued  to  convey,'the  very  same  person, 
on  whose  veracity  or  memory  they  are  only 
to  be  believed,  and  who  must  be  credited  or 
discredited  in  Moy  takes  out  the  sting  him- 
self, by  jgivine  them  such  an  immediate  coii- 
text  andconclusion, 'as  renders  the  proposi- 
tion ridiculous,  which  his  evidence  is  brought 
ibrward  to  establish ;  for  he  says,  that  lord 
Georg;e  Gordon  instantly  afterwards  addressed 
himself  thus : — Beware  of  evil-minded  per$on$y 
who  mojf  mix  among  you  and  do  mitchiefy  the 
hlame  of  which  will  he  imputed  to  you* 

Gentlemen,  if  you  reflect  on  the  slander, 
which  J  told  you  fell  upon  the  Protestants  in 
Scotland  hy  the  acts  of  the  rabble  there,  I  am 
sure  you  will  see  the  words  are  capable  of  an 
easv  explanation.  But  as  Mr.  Bowen  con- 
cluded with  telling  you,  that  he  heard  them 
in  the  midst  of  noise  and  confusion,  and  as  I 
can  only  take  them  fix>m  Aim,  I  shall  not 
make  an  attempt  to  collect  them  into  one  con- 
sistent discourse,  so  as  to  give  them  a  decided 
meaning  in  favour  bfmv  chent,  because  I  have 
repeateSy  told  you,  that  words,  imperfectly 
heard  and  partially  related,  cannot  be  so  re- 
conciled. But  this  I  will  say— that  he  must 
be  a  ruffian  and  not  a  lawver,  who  would  dare 
to  tell  an  English  juiy,  that  such  ambiguous 
words,  hemmed  closely  in  between  others  not 
<mly  innocent,  but  meritorious,  are  to  be 
adopted  to  constitoto  guilt,  by  r^ecting  both 
introduction  and  sequel,  with  which  they 
are  absolutely  irreconcilable  and  inconsis^ 
tent :  for  if  ambisuous  vrords,  when  coupled 
with  actions,  decipher  the  mind  of  the  actor, 
80  as  to  establish  the  presumption  of  euilt, 
will  not  such  as  are  plainly  innocent  and  un- 
ambiguous go  as  &r  to  repel  such  presump- 

*  The  hoiue  of  this  venenble  noblemui  in 
BtooBMbury-HUiawe,  wm  one  of  the  fint  that  was 
allaaiEed  bj  tlie  mob.— Or^.  £d.  See  the  trial  of 
Maskall  at  the  end  of  tUi  oase. 

VOL.  XXL 


tion  ?— Is  innocence  more  difficult  of  proof 
than  the  roost  mali^ant  wickedness  ? — Gen- 
tlemen, I  see  your  ramds  revolt  at  such  shock- 
ing propositions — I  beseech  vou  to  forgive 
me;  I  am  afraid  that  my  zeal  has  led  me  to 
ofier  observations,  which  t  ought  injustice  to 
have  believed  every  honest  mind  would  suggest 
to  itself  with  pain  and  abhorrence,  wiUiout 
being  illustrated  and  enforced. 

I  now  come  more  minutely  to  the  evidence 
on  the  part  of  the  prisoner. 

1  before  told  you,  that  it  was  not  till  No- 
vember  1779,  when  the  Protestant  Associa- 
tion was  aheady  fnlly  established,  that  lord 
George  Gordon  was  elected  president  by  the 
unanimous  voice  of  the  whole  body,  unlooked 
for  and  unsolicited;  and  it  is  surely  not  an 
immaterial  circumstance,  that  at  the  very  first 
meeting  where  his  lordship  presided,  a  duti- 
fiil  and  respectful  petition,  the  same  which 
was  afterwards  presented  to  parliament,  was 
read  and  approved  of; — a  petition,  which,  so 
fiu-  from  containing  any  thing  threatening  or 
offensive,  conveved  not  a  very  oblioue  rdlec^ 
tion  upon  the  bebaviour  of  the  people  in  Scot- 
land; taking  notice  that  as  England  and  that 
country  were  now  one,  and  as  official  assure 
ances  had  been  given  that  the  law  should  not 
pass  THERE,  they  hoped  the  peaceable  and  co9^ 
stitutional  department  of  the  Engliih  Protes- 
tants  would  entitle  them  to  the  approbation 
of  parliament. 

It  appears  by  the  evidence  of  Mr.  Erasmus 
Middleton,  a  yery  respectable  clergyinan,  and 
one  of  the  committee  of  the  Association,  that 
a  meetine  had  been  held  on  the  4th  of  May, 
at  which  lord  George  was  not  present :— That 
at  that  meeting  a  motion  had  been  made  for 
going  up  with  the  petition  in  a  body,  but 
which  not  being  regularly  put  firom  the  chair, 
no  resolution  was  come  to  upon  it : — and  that 
it  was  likewise  agreed  on,  but  in  the  same  ir- 
regular manner,  that  there  should  be  no  other 
public  meeting,  previous  to  the  presenting  Uie 
petition ;»— that  this  last  resolution  occasioned 
great  discontent,  and  that  lord  George  was 
applied  to  b3r  a  large  and  respectable  number 
of  the  Association  to  call  another  meeting,  to 
consider  of  the  most  prudent  and  respectfiil 
method  of  presenting  their  petition :  but  it 
appears  that,  before  he  complied  with  their 
request,  he  consulted  with  the  committee  on 
the  propriety  of  compliance,  who  all  agreeing 
to  it,  except  the  secretary,  his  lordship  advertis- 
ed the  meeting,  which  was  afterwards  held  on 
the  «9th  of  May.  The  meeting  was  therefore 
the  act  of  the  whole  Association ;  and  as  to  the 
original  difference  between  my  noble  friend  and 
the  committee,  on  the  expediency  of  the  mea- 
sure, it  is  totally  immaterial ;  since  Mr.  Mid] 
dleton,  who  was  one  of  the  number  who  dif- 
fered from  him  on  that  subject  (and  whose 
evidence  is  therefore  infinitelv  more  to  be  re- 
lied on),  told  you,  that  his  whole  deportment 
was  so  clear  and  unequivocal,  as  to  entitle  him 
to  assure  you,  on  his  most  solemn  oath,  tiiat 
he  in  his  conscience  believed  his  views  were 

2  R 


011}  21  6B01I6E  ni.      ProceecBngi  againsi  Lard  George  Gardanf      {pit 


perfectly  coDsdtutxonal  and  fwre.  This  most 
respectable  clergyman  imther  swears,  that  he 
attended  all  the  previous  meetings  of  the  so- 
cietyy  from  the  day  the  prisoner  became  presi- 
dent to  the  day  in  question,  and  that  knowing 
they  were  objects  of  much  jealoim  and  ma- 
lice, he  watched  his  behaviour  with  anxiety, 
lest  his  zeal  should  furnish  matter  for  misre- 
presentation;— ^but  that  he  never  heard  an 
expression  escape  Mm  which  marked  a  dispo- 
sition to  violate  the  dutv  and  subordination  of 
a  subject,  or  which  could  lead  any  man  to  be- 
lieve, that  his  objects  were  different  from  the 
avowed  and  legal  objects  of  the  Association. 
We  could  have  examined  thousands  to  the 
same  fact,  fdr,  as  I  told  you  when  I  began  to 
speak,  I  was  obliged  to  feave  my  place  to  dis- 
encumber myself  from  their  names. 

This  evidence  of  Mr.  Middleton's,  as  to  the 
29th  of  May,  must,  I  should  think,  convince 
eveiy  man  how  dangerous  and  unjust  it  is,  in 
witnesses,  however  perfect  their  memories,  or 
however  great  their  veracity,  to  come  into  a 
oriminal  court  where  a  man  is  standing  for  his 
'  life  or  death,  retailing  scraps  of  sentences, 
which  they  had  heard  by  thrusting  themselves, 
from  curiosity,  into  places  where  their  busi- 
ness did  not  lead  them ; — ignorant  of  the  views 
and  tempers  of  both  speakers  and  hearers,  at- 
tending only  to  a  part,  and,  perhaps  innocent- 
ly, misrejpresentint  that  part,  fh)m  not  hav- 
ingheard the  whole. 

The  witnesses  for  the  crown  all  tell  you, 
that  lord  Oeorge  said  he  would  not  go  up 
with  the  petition  unless  he  was  attended  by 
S0,000  people  who  had  signed  it :  and  tkere 
they  think  proper  to  stop,  as  if  he  had  said 
nouangfurther  ;  leaving  you  to  say  to  your- 
selves—^hat  possible  purpose  could  be  have 
in  assembling  such  a  multitude,  on  the  very 
(day  the  House  Was  to  receive  the  petition } — 
Why  should  he  urge  it,  when  the  committee 
had  before  thought  it  inexp^ient  ? — And  why 
should  he  refuse  to  present  it  unless  he  was 
so  attended?  Hear  what  Mr.  Middleton  says; 
— ^He  tells  you,  that  my  noble  friend  inform- 
ed the  petitioners,  that  if  it  was  decided  they 
.  were  not  to  attend  to  consider  how  their  peti- 
tion should  be  presented,  he  would  with  the 
greatest  pleasure  eo  up  with  it  uIom;  but 
that,  if  it  was  resolved  they  should  attend  it 
in  person,  he  expected  80,000  at  the  least 
should  meet  him  in  St.  Geom^s-fields,  for  that 
ptherwise  the  petition  woula  be  considered  as 
a  forgery;  it  naving  been  thrown  out  in  the 
House  and  elsewhere,  that  the  repetd  of  the 
Bill  was  not  the  serious  wish  of  the  people  at 
large,  and  that  the  petition  was  a  mere  list  of 
names  in  parchment)  and  not  of  men  in  senti- 
pient.— Mr.  Middletott  added,  That  lord 
George  adverted  to  the  same  objections  hav- 
ing  been  made  to  many  other  petitions,  and 
he~  therefore  expressed  an  anuety  to  show 
parliament,  how  many  were  actuary  interest* 
ed  in  its  success,  whicn  he  reasotmbfy  tbought 
would  be  a  strong  inducement  to  tne  House 
1»  listen  to  it.    T&e  language  imputed  to  him 


falls  in  most  naturally  with  this  purpose :  <  I 
'  wUh  Parliament  to  see  whOj  and  what  yam  artf 
*  dreu  yeunehee  in  your  but  cteAo*— which 
Mr.  Hay  (who,  I  suppose,  had  beett  teadkikg 
the  indictment)  thought  it  would  be  better  to 
call,  Array  YouitsBLVtSw — He  desifed  that 
not  a  stick  should  be  seen  among  them,  and 
that  if  any  man  insulted  another,  or  was 
guilty  of  any  breach  of  the  poac^  he  was  to 
be  given  up  to  the  magistrates.  Mr.  Attomsy 
General,  to  persuade  you  that  this  was  dl  co« 
lour  and  deceit,  says.  How  Was  a  magistftle 
to  face  40,000  men  ? — How  were  offenders  hi 
such  a  multitude  to  be  amenable  to  the  chrfl 
power? — ^What  a  shameful  perversion  of  a 
plain  peaceable  purpose !  To  be  sure,  if  the 
multitude  had  neen  assembled  to  re$iat  the 
magistrate,  offenders  could  not  be  secured.— 
But  they  themtehes  were  ordered  to  apprehend 
all  offenders  amongst  them,  and  to  deliver 
them  up  to  justice.*^77Ury  themsehet  were  to 
surrender  their  fellows  to  civil  authoriqr  if 
they  offbnded. 

But  it  seems  that  lord  George  ought  to 
have /brewen  that  so  great  a  multitude  could 
not  be  collected  without  mischief.  Gentle* 
men,  we  are  not  trying  whether  he  might  or 
ought  to  have  foreseen  mischief,  but  whethtr 
he  wickedly  and  traitorously  paicovcBRns 
AND  DESiOKBD  tT.  But  If  Ae  be  an  objoct  of 
censure  for  not  foreseeing  it,  what  smdi  we 
say  to  oovERNMEm-,  that  took  no  step  to  prs- 
ventit, — ^that  issued  no  proclamation,  wsm- 
-ing  the  people  of  the  danger  and  illegality  of 
such  an  assembly  f — If  a  peaceable  multitude, 
with  a  petition  m  their  nands,  be  an  armyr* 
and  if  the  noise  and  confusion  inseparable 
from  numbers,  though  without  violence  or  tiw 
purpose  of  violence,  oonetiUite  vnx^-^het 
shall  be  said  of  that  oovkrhmbnt,  which  ie> 
m^ed  from  Tuesday  to  Friday,  knowing  tbat 
an  army  was  eollectintf  to  levy  war  by  public 
advertisement,  yet  baa  not  a  single  solaier^— 
no,  nor  even  a  constable  to  protect  the  statfi? 

Gentlemen,  I  come  forth  to  do  that  for  gs* 
vemment,  which  its  own  servant,  the  At/ter" 
ney  GenerAl,  has  not  done.— I  come  forth  to 
rescue  it  from  the  eternal  in&my«  which 
would  fall  upon  its  head,  if  the  language  of  its 
own advocane  were  to  be  believea.  Butgs* 
vemment  has  an  unanswerable  defence.  It 
neither  did  nor  amid  postikfy  enter  into  tbs 
head  of  any  man  in  authon^  to  prophe^^^ 
human  wisdom  could  not  divine,  mat  wm 
and  desperate  men,  taking  advantage  of  the 
occasion,  which,  perhaps,  an  impnnent  nsl 
for  religion  had  produced,  wouk)  dishonour  the 
cause  of  all  religions,  by  the  disgracefiil  ids 
which  followed. 

MThytheh  is  it  to  be  sakl,  that  lord  Geoigt 

Gordon  is  a  traitor,  who,  without  proof  of  ii7 
hortile  purpose  to  tne  goyerpment  of  his  coud* 
try,  only  did  not  foresee,*— what  nobody  alia 
foresaw.-^what  those  people;  whose  huaions 
it  is  to  foresee  every  daiiger  that  threatens  Ihf 
State,  and  to  avert  it  by  the  utterftweiics  sf 
ma^stracy^  though  thegr  couU  nol  but  t^ 


61S] 


Jw  High  TftosoH* 


tbe  adTcrtisementy  osidMr  did,  nor  oouki  po»> 
f  tiUy  appehend? 

Am  19  it  attempted  to  answer  these  obstr- 
valiooa? — Only  by  asserting,  without  evi- 
dnce,  or  even  reasooohle  argument,  that  all 
this  was  colour  and  deceit — Gentlemen,  I 
again  say,  that  it  is  scandalous  and  reproach- 
nu,  and  not  to  be  justified  by  any  duty,  which 
can  possibly  belong  to  an  advocate  at  the 
bar  of  an  English  court  of  justice,  to  declaim, 
without  any  proof,  or  attempt  at  proof,  that  all 
a  man's  expressions,  however  jyaceable,— 
however  auiet, — however  constitutional, — 
however  loyal, — are  all  fiaud  and  villainy. 
IiN>k,  gentlemen,  to  the  issues  of  life,  which 
I  befcwe  called  the  evidence  of  heaven — ^I  call 
them  so  still — ^Truly  may  I  call  them  so — 
when  out  of  a  book  compiled  by  the  crown 
from  the  petition  in  the  House  of  Commons, 
and  containing  the  names  of  all  who  signed 
it,  and  which  was  printed  in  order  to  prevent 
any  of  that  number  being  summoned  upon  the 
jury  to  try  this  indictment,  not  oke  crimi- 

VAL,  Oa  EVEN  A  SUSPECTED  NAVE  IS  TO  BE 
POUND  AMONGST  THIS  DEFAMED  HOST  OP  PE- 
TITION EES. 

AHer  this,  gentlemen.  I  think  the  crown 
oujght  in  decency  to  be  silent  I  see  the  effect  | 
this  drcumstance  has  upon  you,  and  I  know  I 
am  warranted  in  my  assertion  of  the  fiict  If 
I  am  not,  why  did  not  the  Attorney  General 
produce  the  record  of  some  convictions,  and 
compare  it  with  the  list? — I  thank  them, 
therefore,  for  ^e  precious  compilation,  which, 
though  they  did  not  produce,  they  cannot  stand 
up  and  deny. 

Solomon  says,  '^  O  that  nw  advertary  wouid 
write  m  book/** — so  say  I.  My  adversary  has 
written  a  hwjk,  and  out  of  it  1  am  entitled  to 
pronounce,  that  it  cannot  ftgun  be  decently 
asserted,  that  lord  George  Gordon,  in  exhort- 
ing an  innocent  and  unmipeached  multitude 
to  be  peaceable  and  quiet,  was  exciting  them 
to  violence  aeainst  the  state. 

What  is  tnfi  evidence,  then,  on  which  this 
connexion  with  the  mob  is  to  be  proved  ? — 
Onfy  that  th^  had  blue  cockadet, — ^Are  you  or 
am  I  answerable  for  every  man  who  wears  a 
bhie  cockade  ?->If  a  man  commits  murder  in 
my  livery,  or  in  yours,  without  command, 
counsel,  or  consent,  is  tne  murder  ours? — In 
all  cumtt/aftre,  constructive  treasons  you  are 
to  judge  from  the  tenor  of  a  man's  behaviour, 
not  from  crooked  and  disjointed  parts  of  it. 
Nemo  repente  fuii  turpisginau, — ^No  man  can 
possibly  be  guilty  of  thi$  crime  by  a  sudden 
noptdse  of  the  mind,  as  he  may  of  some 
others;  and  certsdnly  lord  George  Gordon 
•ctands  upon  the  evl<ienoe  at  Coachmakers'- 
hall  as  pure  and  white  as  snow.  He  stands 
ao  upon  the  evidence  of  a  man,  who  had  dif- 
^red  with  him  as  to  the  expeifiency  of  his 
conduct,  yet  who  swears  that,  from  tne  time 
he  took  tne  chair  till  the  period  which  is  the 
subject  of  in^ry^  there  was  no  blame  in 
liim. 
.  Ywy  4]uerefQre,  ace  bound  aa  Christian  men 


A.  D.  1781.  [614 

lobdieve,  that,  when  he  came  to  St  Georee's- 
fields  that  morning,  he  did  not  come  there 
with  the  hottik  purpou  of  repealing  a  law  by 
rebellion. 

But  still  it  seems  all  his  behaviour  at 
Coachmakersrhall  was  colour  and  deceit  1a% 
us  see,  therefore,  whether  this  body  of  men, 
when  assembled,  answered  the  description  of 
that,  which  I  have  stated  to  be  the  purpose  of 
him  who  assembled  them.  Were  they  a  multi- 
tude airayed  for  terror  or  force  ?— On  the  coti^ 
trary,  you  have  heard,  upon  the  evidence  of 
men  whose  veracity  is  not  to  be  impeached, 
that  they  were  sober,  decent,  auiet,  peaceable 
tradesmen ; — that  they  were  all  of  the  better 
8ort;-^l  well  dressed,  and  well  behaved  ;— 
and  that  there  was  not  a  man  among  them, 
who  had  any  one  weapon  offensive  or  defen- 
sive. Su*  Philip  Jennings  Gierke  tells  you, 
he  went  into  the  fields;  that  he  drove  through 
them,  talked  to  many  individuals  among  them, 
who  all  toM  him  that  it  was  not  their  wish  to 
persecute  the  Papists,  but  that  they  were 
alarmed  at  the  progress  of  their  religion  frt>m 
their  schools.  Sir  Philip  fiirUier  told  you, 
that  he  never  saw  a  more  peaceable  multitude 
in  his  life ;  and  it  appears  upon  the  oaths  of 
all  who  were  present,  that  lord  George  Gor- 
don went  round  among  them,  desiring  peace 
and  quietness. 

Mark  his  conduct  when  he  heard  from  Mr. 
Evans,  tbat  a  low,  riotous  set  ofpeople  were 
assembled  in  Palace-yard.  Mr.  Cvans  being 
a  member  of  the  Protestant  Association,  and 
being  desirous  that  nothing  bad  might  happen 
firom  the  assembly,  went  m  his  carriage  with 
Mr.  Spinage  to  St.  George' s-fields,  to  inform 
lord  Geoige  that  there  were  such  people  as- 
sembled (probably  Papists)  who  were  detor- 
mined  to  do  mischief.  The  moment  he  toki 
him  of  what  he  heard,  whatever  his  original 
plan  might  have  been,  he  instantly  changed 
It  on  seeu]«  the  impropriety  of  it  Do  you 
intend;  sad  Mr.  Bvans,  to  carry  up  all  these 
men  with  the  petition  to  the  House  of  Com- 
mons?—O  no!  no!  not  by  any  means— I  do 
not  mean  to  cwty  them  all  up.— Will  you 
give  me  leave,  said  Mr.  Evans,  to  go  round 
to  the  difierent  divisions,  and  tell  the  people 
it  is  not  your  lordship's  purpose?  He  an- 
swered—By all  means;  and  Mr.  Evans  ac- 
cordingly went,  but  it  was  impossible  to  guide 
such  a  number  of  people,  peaceable  as  thw 
were. — They  were  all  aesirous  to  go  forward, 
and  lord  George  was  at  last  obliged  to  leave 
the  fields  exhausted  with  heat  and  fatijgue,  be- 
seeching Ihem  to  be  peaceable  and  quiet.  Mr. 
WhUtingbam  set  him  down  at  the  House  of 
Commons ;  and  at  the  very  time  that  he  thus 
ieil  them  in  perfect  harmony  and  good  order, 
it  appears  by  the  evidence  of  sir  Philip  Jen- 
nings Gierke,  that  Palace-yard  was  in  an  up- 
roar, filled  with  mischievous  boys  and  the 
lowest  dregs  of  tiie  people. 

Gentlemen,  I  have  all  along  told  you,  that 
the  crown  was  aware  that  it  had  no  case  of 
treason,  witiiput  connecting  the  noble  pri- 


6151 


21  GEORGE  IIL      Proceedings  against  Lwrd  George  Gordon,     [616 


soner  with  consequences,  which  it  was  in 
some  luck  to  find  advocates  to  state,  without 
proof  to  support  it.  I  can  only  8]>eak  for  my- 
self; that  small  as  my  chance  is  (at  timet 
go)  of  ever  arrivine  at  high  office,  I  would 
not  accept  of  it  on  the  terms  of  heing  obliged 
to  produce  against  a  fellow-citizen,  that  which 
I  have  been  witness  to  this  dav :  for  Mr.  At- 
torney General  perfectly  well  knew  the  inno- 


such  honest,  artless  conduct  as  an  evidence 
of  guilt.  Gentlemen,  if  lord  Geoi^  Gordon 
had  been  guilty  of  high  treason  (as  is  assumed 
to-day)  in  the  face  cf  the  whole  parliament, 
how  are  all  its  members  to  defend  themselves 
from  the  misprision  of  suffering  such  a  per- 
son to  go  at  lu^e  and  to  approach  his  so- 
vereign ?— The  man  who  conceals  the  perpe- 
tration of  treason,  is  himself  a  traitor ;  but 


cent  and  laudable  motive,  with  which  the  pro-    they  are  all  perfectly  safe^  for  nobody  thought 

of  treason  till  fears  arising  from   another 

quarter  bewildered  their  senses.  The  King, 
therefore,  and  his  servants,  very  wisely  ac- 
cepted his  promise  of  assistance,  and  he  flew 
with  honest  zeal  to  fulfil  it.  Sir  Philip  Jen- 
nings Gierke  tells  you,  that  he  made  use  of 
every  expression,  which  it  was  possible  for  a 
man  in  such  circumstances  to  employ.  He 
begged  them,  for  God's  sake,  to  disperse  and 
go  home ;  declared  his  hope,  that  the  petition 
would  be  granted,  but  that  rioting  was  not 
the  way  to  cflFect  it.— Sir  Philip  said  he  felt 
himself  bound,  without  being  particularly 
asked,  to  say  every  thing  he  could  in  protec- 
tion of  an  injured  and  innocent  man,  and  re- 
peated again,  that  there  was  not  an  art,  which 
the  prisoner  could  possibly  make  use  of,  that 
he  (fid  not  zealously  employ ;— but  that  it  wu 
all  in  vain.  I  began,  says  he,  to  tremble  for 
mvself,  when  lord  George  read  the  resolution 
of'^the  House,  which  was  hostile  to  them,  and 
ssud  their  petition  would  not  be  taken  into 
consideration  till  they  were  quiet.  But  did 
he  say.  Therefore  go  on  to  hum  and  dettnyJ 
—On  the  contrary,  he  helped  to  pen  that  mo- 
tion, and  read  it  to  the  multitude,  at  (w* 
which  he  himteif  had  appraoed.  After  this  he 
went  into  the  coach  with  sheriff  Pugh,  in  the 
city ;  and  there  it  was,  in  the  presence  of  the 


tcction  was  given,  that  he  exhibited  as  an 

evidence  of  guilt :  yet  it  was  produced  to  in- 
sinuate, that  lord  George  Gordon,  knowing 

himself  to  be  the  ruler  of  those  villains,  set 

himself  up  as  a  saviour  firom  their  fiiry.    We 

called  lord  Stormont  to  explain  this  matter  to 

you,  who  told  you  that  lord  George  Gordon 

came  to  Buckingham-house,  and  D^ged  to 

see  the  King,  saying,  he  might  be  of  great  use 

in  ouelling  the  riots;  and  can  there  be  on 

eartn  a  skater  proof  of  conscious  innocence? 

for  if  he  nad  been  the  wicked  mover  of  them, 

would  he  have  gone  to  the  King  to  have  con- 
fessed it,  hy  onertne  to  recall  his  followers, 

from  the  mischiefs  he  had  provoked } — No ! 

But  since,  notwithstanding  a  public  protest 

issued  by  himself  and  the  Association,  reviling 

the  authors  of  mischief,  the  Protestant  cause 

was  still  made  the  pretext,  he  thought  his 

public  exertions   might  be  useful,  as  thev 

might  tend  to  remove  the  prejudices  whicn 

wicked  men  had  diffused.— rl'he  King  thought 

so  likewise,  and  therefore  ^as  appear^  by  lord 

Stormont)  refused  to  see  lord  George  till  he 

had  given  the  test  of  his  loyalty  by  such  exer- 
tions.— But  sure  I  am,  our  gracious  sovereign 

meant  no  trap  for  innocence,  nor  ever  recom- 
mended it  as  such  to  his  ser\'ants. 
Lord  George's  language  was  simply  this:     -„  ,  ,  ,     .       .  •  *•      *« 

'The  multitude  pretend  to  be  perpetrating    veiy  magistrate,  whom  he  waa  assisting  to 

'  these  acts,  under  the  authority  of  the  Pro-    keep  the  peace,  that  he  puA/ic/v. signed  tnc 

-  -      '  protection  which  has  been  read  in  evidence 

against  him;  although  Mr.  Fisher,  who  now 
stands  in  my  presence,  confessed  in  the  pnvy 
council,  that  he  himself  had  granted  similar 


*  testant  petition;  I  assure  your  Majesty  thev 

*  are  not  the  Protestant  Association,  and  I  shall 
'  be  glad  to  be  of  any  service  in  suppressing 

*  them.'    I  sav,  by  God,*  that  man  is  a  ruffian, 
who  shall,  aner  this,  presume  to  build  upon 


*  **  A.  siogular  passage,  to  be  foand  in  this  speech, 
affords  a  great  contrast  to  the  oalm  and  even  mild 
tone  of  its  peroration.  It  is,  indeed,  as  far  as  we 
know,  the  only  instance  of  the  kind  in  the  history  of 
modern  eloquence ;  and  we  might  justly  hare  doubt- 
ed, if  CTen  Mr.  Brskine's  skill,  and  well-known  dis- 
cretion as  a  pablio  speaker,  had  not  forsaken  him, 
and  allowed  his  beat  and  fancy  to  hurry  him  some- 
what too  &r, — bad  we  not,  in  tlie  traditional  account 
of  the  perfect  saocess  which  attended  this  passage, 
the  most  unequivocal  endenoe  in  his  favour.'* 

**  The  sensation  produced  by  these  words,  and  b}* 
4he  magic  of  the  voice,  the  eye,  the  fao^,  the  fignre, 
and  all  we  call  the  manner,  with  which  they  were  ut- 
tered, is  related,  by  those  present  on  this  graat  oc- 
casion, to  have  been  quite  electrical,  and  to  balBe  all 
power  of  description.  The  feeling  of  the  moment 
alone,— Uiat  sort  of  sympathy  which  aubsbts  be- 
tween an  observant  speaker  and  his  audience, — 
which  oommunidktes  to  him,  as  he  goes  on,  their 
fceliogs  under  what  he  is  saying,— deciphers  the  lan- 
guafo  of  theur  looks,<— and  even  teaohet  him,  with- 


this  just  obedience  to  his  M^estVs  rcquwt, 
do  the  King's  servanU  come  to-day  into  ms 
court,  where  he  is  supposed  in  person  to  si^ 
to  turn  that  obedience  into  the  crime  o*  n*jj 
treason,  and  to  ask  5^  to  put  him  to  deatu 

for  it.  ,       ,  .._ 

Gentlemen,  you  have  now  heard,  upon  tne 
solemn  oaths  of  honest  disinterested  men,  » 
faithful  history  of  the  conduct  of  lord  George 
Gordon,  from  tiie  day  tiiat  he  became  a  m^ 
her  of  the  PiDtestant  Association,  to  the  (^y 


outiepuding  what  he  sees,  to  »dapt  his  worfs  to 
the  sUte  of  dieir  minda,  by  merely  attending  to  M 
own.    This  intoitive  and  momentaiy  impalic  ooam 

alone  have  prompted  a  flight,  '^J^^  ?*  J^^"!.^ 
sustain ;  and,  as  iU  iaUure  would  "idfdhare  be» 
fttal,  so  its  eminent  success  must  be  allowod  w  mm 
U  among  Iho  loort  famous  foaU  of  oratory. 

Bdinborgh  lUvMW,  Apnlf  i8W» 


617] 


Jbr  High  Treason* 


that  he  was  committed  a  prisoner  to  the 
Tower.-' And  I  have  no  doubt,  from  the  at- 
tention with  which  I  have  been  honoured 
from  the  bednning,  that  you  have  still  kept 
in  yourminSs  the  principles,  to  which  I  en- 
treated you  would  apply  it,  and  that  you  have 
measured  it  by  that  standard. 

You  have,  therefore,  only  to  look  back  to 
the  whole  of  it  together; — to  reflect  on  all 
you  have  heard  concerning  him; — to  trace 
him  in  your  recollection  throueh  every  part 
of  the  transaction ; — and,  considering  it  with 
one  manly  liberal  view,  to  ask  your  own  honest 
hearts,  whether  you  can  say,  that  this  noble 
and  u^ortunate  vouth  is  a  wicked  and  deli- 
berate traitor,  who  deserves  by  your  verdict 
to  ^liffer  a  shamefid  and  ignominious  death, 
which  will  stain  the  ancient  honours  of  his 
house  for  ever. 

The  crime  which  the  crown  would  have 
fixed  upon  him  is,  that  he  assembled  the  Pro- 
testant Association  round  the  House  of  Com- 
mons, not  merely  to  influence  and  persuade 
parliament  by  the  eameUneu  of  their  mpplica- 
timu,  but  actually  to  coerce  it  bu  hoetiU  rebeU 
ii»u»/orce,-^Thaii  finding  himself  disappointed 
in  the  success  of  that,  coercion,  he  atterwards 
incited  his  follpwers  to  abolish  the  legal  in- 
dulgences to  Papists,  which  the  object  of  tlie 
petition  was  to  repeal,  bv  the  bummg  of  their 
houses  of  worship,  and  the  destruction  of  their 
property,  which  ended  at  last  in  a  general  at- 
tack on  the  property  of  all  orders  of  men,  re- 
ligious and  civir,--on  the  public  treasures  of 
the  nation, — and  on  the  very  being  of  the  go- 
vernment. 

To  support  a  charge  of  so  atrocious  and  un- 
natural a  complexion,  the  laws  of  the  most 
arbitrary  nations  would  require  the  most  in- 
controvertible pioof.  Either  the  villain  must 
have  been  taken  in  the  overt  act  of  wicked- 
ness, or,  if  he  worked  in  secret  upon  otllers, 
his  guilt  must  have  been  brought  out  b^  the 
disoDveiy  of  a  conspiracy,  or  by  the  consistent 
tenour  if  criminality ;  Uie  very  worst  inqui- 
ator  that  ever  dealt  m  blood  would  vindicate 
the  torture  by  plausibility  at  least,  and  by  the 
semblance  of  truth. 

What  evidence  then  will  a  jury  of  English- 
men expect,  firom  the  servants  of  the  crown 
of  England,  before  the^  deliver  up  a  brother 
accused  be^re  them  to  ignominy  and  death  ? 
— ^What  proof  will  their  consciences  require  ? 
—What  will  their  plain  and  manly  under- 
standings accept  of  ? — What  does  the  imme- 
morial custom  of  their  fiilhers,  and  the  written 
law  of  this  land,  warrant  them  in  demand- 
ing ? — ^Nothing  less,  in  any  case  of  bloody  than 
the  clearest  and  most  unequivocal  conviction 
of  guilt. — ^But  in  tkit  case  the  act  has  not 
even  trusted  to  the  humanity  and  justice  of 
our  general  law,  but  has  said  m  plain,  rough, 
expressive  Vsna^—praoeably — ^that  is,  says 
lord  Coke,  not  upon  conjectural  circumtiances 
4>r  inference^  or  Mtraint  of  wit,  but  upon 
piRECT  AVD  PLAIN  PROOF — '  For  the  Kmg, 

<  I^ords,  and  Coiamonsy'  continues  that  great 


A.  D.  1781.  [618 

kwyer,  *  did  not  use  the  word  probably^  for 
'  then   a   common   argument   might    have 

*  served;  but  proveably,  which  signifies  the 

*  highest  force  of  demonstration.' — And  what 
evidence,  gentlemen  of  the  jury,  does  the 
crown  offer  to  you  in  compliance  with  these 
sound  and  sacred  doctrines  of  justice  ? — a  few 
broken,  interrupted^  di^ointed  words,  without 
context  or  connection, — uttered  by  the  speaker 
in  agitation  and  heat, — heard  by  those  who 
relate  them  to  you,  in  the  midst  of  tumult 
and  confusion, — and  even  those  words,  muti- 
lated as  they  are,  in  direct  opoosition  to,  and 
inconsistent  with  repeated  ana  earnest  decla- 
rations, delivered  at  the  vei^  same  time,  and 
on  the  very  same  occasion,  related  to  vou  by 
a  much  greater  number  of  persons,  ana  abso* 
lutely  incompatible  with  the  whole  tenor  of 
his  conduct. — Which  of  us  all,  gentlemen^ 
would  be  safe,  standing  at  the  bar  of  God,  or 
man,  if  we  were  not  to  be  judged  by  the  re- 

gular  current  of  our  lives  and  conversations, 
ut  by  detached  and  unguarded  expressions, 
picked  out  b]^  malice,  and  recorded,  without 
context  or  circumstances,  against  us?    Yet 
such  is  the  only  evidence,  on  which  the  crown 
asks  you  lo  dip  your  hands,  anci  to  stain  your 
consciences,  in  the  innocent  blood  of  the  no- 
ble and  uiuortunate  youth  who  now  stands 
before  you :-— oh  the  single  evidence  of  the' 
words  you  have  heard  from  their  witnesses, 
(for  of  what  but   Kords   have  you  heard  f) 
which  even  if  they  had  stood  uncontroverted 
by  Uic  proofs  that  have  swallowed  them  up, 
or  unexplained  by  circumstances  which  de- 
stroy their  malignity,  could  not,  at  the  very 
worstf  amount  in  law  to  more  than  a  breach 
of  the  act  against  tumultuous  petitioning  (if 
such  an  act  still  exists) ;  since  the  worst  mar 
lice  of  his  enemies  has  not  been  able  to  bring 
up  one  single  witness  to  say,  that  he  ever  rfi- 
rectedy  countenanced,  or  approved  rebellious 
force  against  the  legislature  of  his  country. 
It  is  therefore  a  matter  of  astonishment  to 
me,  that  men  can  keep  the  natural  colour  in 
their  cheeks,  when  they  ask  for  human  life, 
even  on  the  crown*s  original  case,  though  the 
prisoner  had  made  no  defence. — But  will  they 
still  continue  to  ask  tor  it  after  what  they 
have  heard?   I  will  iust  remind  the  Solicitor 
General,  before  he  begins  his  reply,  what 
matter  he  has  to  encounter.    He  has  to  en- 
counter this:— Thai  the  going  up  in  a  body 
was  not  even  originated  by  lord  George,  but 
by  others  in  his  absence. — That  when  pro- 
posed by  him  officially  as  chairman,  it  was 
adopted  by  the  whole  Association,  and  conse- 
quentlv  was  their  act  as  much  as  his.-yThat  it 
was  adopted  not  in  a  conclave^  but  with  open 
doors,  and  the  resolution  published  to  all  the 
world. — ^That  it  was  known  of  course  to  the 
ministers  and  magistrates  of  the  country,  who 
did  not  even  signify  to  him,  or  to  any  body 
else,  its  illegality  or  danger.— That  decencjr 
and  peace  were  ei\joined  and  commanded. — 
That  the  regularity  of  the  procession,  and 
those  badges  of  distinction,  which  are  now 


618] 


21  GEORGE  III.      ProceecUngi  against  Lord  George  Gordoih      [629 


cruelly  turned  into  the  charge  of  an  hostile 
amy  aeainst  him,  were  expressly  and  pufr/tcfy 
directed  Jbr  the  preservation  qf  peace,  and  the 
^^preoention  of  tumult. — ^That  while  the  House 
was  deliberating,  he  repeatedly  entreated  them 
to  behave  with  decency  and  peace,  and  to  retire 
to  their  houses ;  though  he  knew  not  that  he  wo* 
ipeakine  to  the  enemies  of  his  cause, — ^That 
when  they  at  last  dispersed,  no  man  thought 
or  imagined  that  treason  had  been  committed. 
— That  he  retired  to  bed,  where  he  lay  un- 
conscious that  ruffians  were  ruining  him,  by 
their  disorders  in  the  night — That  on  Mon- 
day he  published  an  advertisement,  reviling 
the  authors  of  the  riots,  and,  as  the  Protestant 
cause  had  been  wickedly  made  the  pretext 
for  them,  solemnly  enjoined  all  who  wished 
well  to  it  to  be  obedient  to  the  laws.  (Nor 
has  the  crown  even  attempted  toprooe^  that  he 
had  either  given,  or  that  he  afterwards  gave, 
secret  instructions  in  opposition  to  that  public 
<MftiMmtf  ion  J— That  he  afterwards  begged  an 
audience  to  receive  the  king's  commands ; — 
that  he  waited  on  the  ministers; — that  he  at- 
tended his  duty  in  parliament; — ^andwhen 
the  multitude, — amongst  whom  there  was  not 
a  man  of  the  associated  Protestants, — again  as- 
sembled on  the  Tuesday,  under  pretence  of 
the  Protestant  cause,  he  offered  his  services, 
and  read  a  resolution  of  the  House  to  them, 
accompanied  with  every  expostulation,  which 
a  zeal  for  peace  could  possibly  inspire. — ^That 
be  afterwards,  in  pursuance  of  the  king!s  di- 
rection, attended  the  magistrates  in  their 
duty;  honestly  and  honourably  exerting  a^ 
his  powers  to  auell  the  fury  of  the  multitude : 
— a  conduct  which,  to  the  dishonour  of  the 
crown,  has  been  scandalously  turned  i^ainst 
him,  by  criminating  him  with  protections 
eranted  publicly  in  the  coach  of  the  sheriff  of 
London,  whom  he  was  assisting  in  his  office 
of  ma^stracy;  although  protections  of  a  si- 
milar nature  were,  to  the  knowledge  of  the 
whole  nrivy  council,  granted  by  Mr.  Fisher 
himself,  who  now  stands  in  my  presence  un- 
accused and  unreproved,  but  who,  if  the 
crown  that  summoned  him  durst  have  called 
him,  would  have  dispersed  to  their  concision 
the  slightest  imputation  of  guilt. 

What  then  has  produced  this  trial  for  high 
treason,  or  nven  it,  when  produced,  the  seri- 
ousness and  solemnity  it  wears  ?— What,  but 
the  inversion  of  all  justice,  by  judging  from 
consequences,  instead  of  fnun  causes  and  de- 
signs f — ^what  but  the  artftil  manner,  in  which 
the  crown  has  endeavoured  to  blend  the  peti- 
tioning in  a  bod]r,  and  the  seal  with  which  an 
animated  disposition  conducted  it,  with  the 
melancholy  crimes  tiiat  followed? — crimes, 
which  the  shameful  indolence  of  our  magis- 
trates,—which  the  total  extinction  of  all  po- 
lice and  government,  suffered  to  be  committed 
in  broad  day,  and  in  tiie  delirium  of  <kunken- 
ness,  by  an  unarmed  banditti,  without  a  head, 
—without  plan  or  dbject/---and  without  a  re- 
fuge from  the  instant  gripe  of  justice : — a 
banditti,  with  whom  ^e  aaaod1e€  Protes- 


tants, and  their  president,  had  no  manner  of 
connection,  and  whose  cause  they  overturned, 
dishonoured,  and  ruined. 

How  unchristian  then  is  it  to  attempt, 
without  evidence,  to  infect  the  imaginatiQNQs 
of  men  who  are  sworn  dispassionately  and 
disinterestedly  to  try  the  trivial  offience,  of 
assembling  a'multitude  with  a  petition  to  re- 
peal a  law  (which  has  happened  so  often  in 
all  our  memories),  by  blending  it  with  the 
fatal  catastrophe,  on  which  every  man's  mind 
may  be  supposed  to  retain  some  degree  of  ir- 
riution  ?— 0/tf  /  O  ^fie  !  Is  the  intellectual 
seat  of  justice  to  be  thus  impiously  shaken? 
— ^Are  your  benevolent  propensities  to  be 
thus  disappointed  and  abused) — Do  they  wish 
you,  while  you  are  listening  to  the  evuienoe^ 
to  connect  it  witii  unforeseen  consemienoes, 
in  spite  of  reason  and  truth  ? — ^Is  it  tneir  ob- 
iect  to  hang  the  millstone  of  prejudice  around 
his  innocent  neck  to  sink  him? — If  there  be 
such  men,  may  Heaven  forgive  them  for  the 
attempt,  and  inspire  you  with  fortitude  and 
wisdom,  to  discha^  yoax  duty  with  calm, 
steady,  and  reflecting  minds. 

Gentlemen,  I  have  no  manner  of  doobt 
that  you  will. — I  am  sure  you  cannot  but  see, 
notwithstanding  my  great  inability,  increased 
by  a  pertur^tion  of  mind  (arising,  thank 
God !  from^  no  dishonest  cause),  iSaX  there 
has  been  not  only  no  evidence  on  the  part  of 
the  crown,  to  fix  the  guilt  of  the  late  commo- 
tions iipon  the  prisoner,  but  that,  on  the  con- 
trary, we  have  been  able  to  resist  the  prohahi- 
Uty,  I  might  almost  say  the  potsibiiity — of  the 
charge,  not  only  by  hving  witnesses,  whom 
we  only  ceased  to  call,  because  the  trial 
would  never  have  ended,  but  bv  the  evidence 
of  all  the  blood  that  has  paid  the  forfeit  of 
that  guilt  already;  an  efvidence  that  I  will 
take  upon  me  to  say  is  the  strongest,  and 
most  unanswerable,  which  the  combination 
of  natural  events  ever  broug^ht  together  since 
the  beginning  of  the  world  for  the  deliverance 
of  the  oppressed.  Since  in  the  late  numerous 
trials  for  acts  of  violence  and  depredatioo, 
though  conducted  l^  the  ablest  servants  of 
the  crown,  with  a  laudable  eye  to  the  investi- 
gation of  the  subject  which  now  engages  us, 
no  one  fact  appeared,  which  showed  any  plan, 
— any  object, — ^any  leader. — Since  out  of 
44,000  persons,  who  signed  the  Petitioner 
the  Protestants,  not  one  was  to  be  found 
among  those  wno  were  oonvicted,  tried^  or 
even  apprehended  on  suspicion ; — and  since 
out  of  u\  the  fel<ms,  who  were  let  loose  fvon 
prisons,  and  who  assisted  in  the  destniction 
of  our  property,  not  a  single  wretch  was  to  be 
found,  who  oouM  even  attenapt  to  save  hb 
own  life  by  the  plansible  promise  of  givkig 
evidence  to-day. 

What  can  overturn  such  a  proof  as  thisf-^ 
Surely  a  ^ood  maa  might,  without  supecsli- 
tion,  believe,  that  such  an  union  of  eveali 
was  something  rnore  than  natural,  and  tbit 
the  Divine  Providence  was  watohnil  for  Iks 
pfoleotion  of  ttBooenoe  and  tiulh. 


621] 


f<^  High  Treoion* 


A.  D.  1781. 


paf 


I  may  now  therefore  relieve  you  from  the 
pain  of  hetoing  me  any  longer,  and  be  my- 
self relieved  from  speaking  on  a  Bubject  which 
agitates  and  distresses  me.  Since  lord  George 
Sirdon  stands  clear  of  every  hostile  act  or 
purpose  against  the  legislature  of  his  country, 
or  tne  properties  of  k^s  fellow  subjects — since 
the  whole  tenor  of  his  conduct  repels  the  be- 
lief of  the  trmtoroM  wteHtion  chsurged  by  the 
indictment — ^my  task  is  finbhed.  I  shall 
make  no  address  to  your  passions — ^I  will  not 
remind  you  of  the  lone  and  rigorous  imprison- 
ment he  has  sufierea ; — I  will  not  speak  to 
you  of  his  great  youth,  of  his  illustrious  birth, 
and  of  his  uniformly  animated  and  generous 
aaal  in  parliament  for  the  constitution  of  his 
country.  Such  topics  might  be  usefid  in  the 
Iniance  of  a  doubtful  case;  yet  even  then  I 
ahould  have  trusted  to  the  honest  hearts  of 
£ngtishmf*n  to  have  felt  them  without  excita- 
tion. *.  t  present,  the  plain  and  rigid  rules  of 
justice  and  truth  are  sufficient  to  entitle  me 
to  your  verdict ;  and  may  God  Almighty,  who 
is  the  sacred  Author  of  both,  fill  your  minds 
with  the  deepest  impressions  of  them,  and 
with  virtue  to  follow  those  impressions  !  You 
will  then  restore  my  innocent  client  to  liber- 
1y,  and  me  to  that  peace  of  mind,  which, 
aince  the  protection  of  that  innocence  in  any 
|Mrt  dep  rtded  upon  me,  I  have  never  known. 

Mr.  Solicitor  General,  [James  Mansfield, 
afterwards  Ch.  Just.  C.  B.] 

Gentlemen  of  the  Jur^ ;  It  is  my  duty 
Aow^  and  a  very  painful  one  indeed  it  is,  ex- 
clusive of  the  circumstance  of  the  very  long* 
time  we  have  been  here  employed^  and  of  the 
fiitigue  which  I  very  sensibly  feel, -that  I 
should  now  be  obtiged  to  observe  to  vou  upon 
the  effect  of  the  evidence  which  has  been 
given  against  the  prisoner. 

I  am  perfectly  convinced,  that,  if  I  was  not 
so  much  exhausted  as  to  be  eoual  only  to 
very  feeble  efforts  indeed,  it  would  be  utterly 
Out  of  my  power  to  do  justice  to  the  present 
cause ;  many,  I  am  satisfied,  of  these  who 
hear  me,  and  who  have  paid  attention  to  the 
evidence,  would  perceive  that  I  was.  guilty  of 
many  omissions,  that  I  suffer  a  ^reat  va- 
riety of  circumstances  to  pass  unnoticed,  ma- 
terial to  be  attended  to  in  the  decision  of  the 
cause.  I  am  also  apprehensive,  but  I  cannot 
say  with  much  concern,  that  to  others  I  may 
appear,  even  with  those  defects,  too  strenuous 
perhaps  in  drawing  inferences  from  the  facts 
which  have  been  proved  in  the  cause  to  the 
prejudice  of  the  prisoner;  thati  may  urg|e  argu- 
ments beyond  their  natural  force,  and  wish  you 
to  Lety  stress  upon  proofs  which  ought  not  to 
carry  much  force  with  them :  and,  indeed,  if  I 
was  to  believe,  or  if  any  man  could  believe, 
what  has  been  very  lately,  very  frec^uently,  very 
boldly,  very  hardily  asserted,  I  might  be  afraid 
of  sharing  in  that  censure  and  that  blame, 
which,  in  a  manner  perfectly  new  in  English 
courts  of  Judicature,  has  been  cast  upon  ray 
jbanjfid  friend,  as  the  author  of  this  prosecu- 


tion, as  well  as  upon  the  witnesaoe  who  have 
appeared  in  the  cause,  and  upon  all  who  have 
hadany  thing  todowithit;  and,  if  the  word 
of  a  gentleman  who  has  boldly,  adventnrouiljr 
and  licentiously  inveighed  against  every  maa 
who  has  had  any  thing  to  £  in  the  conduet 
of  this  cause,  is  to  be  token  against  evidence 
against  reason,  i^ainst  law,  I  shoidd  have 
indeed  a  very  terrible  trial  to  undergo.  I 
must  fear  very  much  for  my  reputation ;  I 
must  fear  the  imputation  of  persecution,  of 
cruelty,  of  an  attempt  to  support  an  unjust 
and  groundless  prosecution,  by  slumeftil  igno- 
minious evidence;  for  this  is  the  result  of 
frequent  assertions,  made  with  a  boldness 
perfectly  new  to  me  in  my  short  experience 
m  English  judicature,  but  which,  however, 
makes  no  impression  upon  me. 

I  have  -endeavoured  to  guard  myself  against 
it,  for  this  just  and  important  reason :  if  I 
suffered  myself  to  be  transported  by  any  thhig 
like  resentment  of  the  wrong  I  think  I  have 
to  complain  of  on  the  part  of  the  advocate 
employed,  I  might,  pernaps,  incur  the  cen- 
sure of  sevoity  and  acrimony  against  the  pri- 
soner. God  knows  I  am  a  perfect  stranger 
to  any  such  thing ;  I  never  knew  them,  I 
hope  I  never  shall  know  them ;  but  greater 
provocation  by  the  counsel  for  a  prisoner  was 
never  given  to  the  advocates  for  a  prosecu- 
tion, I  might  almost  say,  to  the  justice  of  the 
country,  and  thus  much  I  cannot  help  ob- 
serving :  but  I  am  so  far  from  feeling  that 
the  invective,  the  censure,  and  give  me  leave 
to  call  it  the  calumny  and  the  slander,  that 
have  been  so  freely  spread,  and  so  often  re- 
peated, have  the  smallest  sround,  that  I  am 
firee  to  confess  I  should  nave  thought,  if  I 
had  stood  in  the  place  of  my  learned  friend, 
when  he  commenced  this  prosecution,  I 
should  have  thought  myself  extremely  bkun^ 
able,  and  answerable  to  the  justice  of  my 
countrv  for  great  neglect,  if  I  had  omitted  to 
bring  the  pnsoner  to  trial.  I  do  not  mean  to 
insinuate,  that  he  is  therefore  guilty  because 
he  is  tried ;  but  I  think  all  who  hear  me  will 
go  along  with  me,  when  I  say,  that  if  in  the 
ultimate  result  it  could  happen,  that  your  ver- 
dict should  be  in  his  favour,  that  he  has  had 
such   strong   appearances  of  guilt   against 

him I  say,  gentlemen,  every  man  1 

think  will  accompany  me  when  I  assert,  that 
there  have  appeared  such  strong  symptoms 
at  least,  of  guilt  against  the  prisoner ;  '  that 
any  person  acquainted  with  them,  would 
have  thought  it  the  duty  of  those  entrusted 
with  the  prosecuting  powers  of  the  crown,  tb 
bring  the  prisoner  to  this  tribunal.  Let  me 
again  assert,  however,  that  whatever  has  be^n 
said  acrimonious  towards  my  fnend  or  me, 
(^as  I  am  included  in  the  accusation)  I  forget 
it  from  this  moment ;  it  shall  make  no  in>- 
presston  upon  me ;  it  shall  not  shs^pen  my 
temper  against  the  noble  prisoner:  it  shall 
not,  on  the  other  hand,  deter  me  from  doing 
that  which  I  think  my  duty ;  and  though  a 
learned  gentleinafi  at  the  bar  shall  tell  me 


«S3] 


a 

21  GEORGE  III.      Proceedings  against  Lord  George  Gordon^      [694r 


ten  times^to  my  face,  that  I  am  a  ruffian,  I 
sl^l  not  think  that  I  deserve  it  because  he 
says  so ;  nor  will  any  such  abuse  frighten  me 
from  dohig  the  duty  of  an  English  advocate, 
prosecuting,  at  least,  1  will  venture  to  say, 
whether  he  be  guilty, of  the  crime  charged 
upon  lidm,  or  not,  a  criminal,  in  the  un- 
fortunate effects  of  his  conduct,  as  perni- 
cious to  the  country,  as  any  from  whom  it 

ever  felt.  .,       , 

Gentlemen,  I  hardly  know,  amidst  the 
various  matter  with  which  this  cause  is  pi%g- 
nant,  and  which  calls  for  observation,  where 
first  to  call  your  attention. 

Before  I  go  into  the  particulars  of  the  facts 
upon  which  I  have  to  observe,  somethiuj^ 
having  been  said  upon  some  general  topics,  it 
is  fit  that  I  should  remark  to  you  upon  it.  Into 
this  cause  have '  been  introducea  some  doc- 
trines upon  the  fireedom  of  petitions  to  parliar 
ment,  and  that  multitudes  for  that  purpose 
may  accompany  them ;  and  it  seems  to  have 
been  said  by  both  my  learned  friends,  that 
fi^y  number  of  men  may  go  with  their  peti- 
tions to  parliament ;  and  they  both  tell  you, 
that  an  act  of  parliament  which  restrains  that 
number  to  ten,  made  in  the  time  of  Charles 
the  first,  has  b^n  repealed  by  a  law  made  in 
the  1st  year  of  king  William,  called  the  Bill 
of  Rights.  In  my  apprehension,  there  is  no 
foun&tion  for  that  supposition,  though,  if 
there  was,  it  has  no  relation  to  the  cause  you 
are  trying.  A  statute  in  the  reign  of  Charles 
the  second,  made  afler  the  mischiefs  of  the 
usurpation,  in  order  to  check  every  approach 
towards  tumults,  restrained  the  number  of 
men  who  under  any  pretence  shall  prefer  pe- 
titions, to  ten,  under  considerable  pecuniary 
penalties.  Immediately  afler  the  Revolution 
m  1688,  in  the  Bill  of  Rights,  one  declared  is, 
that  the  subjects  have  a  right  to  petition  the 
king,  not  to  petition  the  parliament;  for  of 
the  right  to  petition  the  parliament  no  man 
had  ever  doubted :  but  tnat  very  act  recites, 
as  one  of  the  acts  of  tyranny  practised  by 
James  the  second,  that  several  prelates  had 
been  prosecuted  for  a  petition ; .  and,  as  ap- 
plied to  Uiat  ^evance,  there  afiterwards 
comes  a  declaration  of  the  rights  of  the  peo- 
ple, that  they  may  petition  the  king.  All 
petitions,  therefore,  to  parliament,  about  the 
right  of  presenting  which  no  mortal  could 
ever  doubt,  remain  as  they  were  before  that 
Declaration  of  Rights,  and  cannot  possibly  be 
affected  by  it. 

But  farther,  if  it  had  been  said  expressly 
by  the  Declaration  of  Rights,  that  the  subject 
bad  a  right  to  petition  the  king  or  pai-lia^ 
ment,  would  it  have  at  all  followed,  that  the 
.act  of  Charles  the  second,  which  supposes 
«uch  a  ri^ht,  and  only  regulates  the  exercise 
of  it,  was  in  any  respect  repealed  ? 

The  statute  of  Charles  the  second,  which 
says  there  never  shall  be  more  than  ten  per- 
sons* so  up  with  a  petition,  either  to  the  king 
or  parliament,  necessarily  supposes,  that,  pre- 
rious  to  that  act,  there  was  no  limitation  of 


number ;  that  the  subjects  had  a  ri^tto  ofier 
up  their  petitions  to  either  the  parliament  or 
the  king,  but,  to  prevent  abuses  of  that  right, 
limits  me  number  of  persons  that  shall 'iu> 
compimy  a  petition.  It  seems  to  me  absurd 
reasoning  to  suppose  that  this  act  of  parlia- 
ment could  possibly  be  repealed  by  a  subse- 
r»t  law,  which  only  declares  m  general, 
t  the  people  of  this  kingdom  have  a  right 
to  petition  the  king.  But,  in  God's  name, 
what  has  that  act  of  parliament  to  do  with 
the  present  question?  Was  it  a  law  before 
the  time  of  Charles  the  second,  when  the 
numbers  of  petitioners  were  restrained  to  ten, 
that  any  number  might  cany  a  petition  ?  that 
that  number  might  canv  their  petition  with 
any  circumstances  ?  in  short,  that  they  might 
take  the  prince  on  the  throne  prisoner  in  his 
.palaee,  or  surround  the  parliament,  and  be- 
siege it,  till  their  petitions  were  granted? 
Can  this  possibly  be  believed  ?  It  cannot  be ; 
it  is  utterly  inconsistent  with  all  order  and 
government;  and  men  might  be  as  ^guilty  of 
a  riot,  tumidtuously  petitioning  before  that 
act,  as  they  can  be  since,  and  are  answerable 
to  their  country  for  the  commission  of  such  a 
crime;  neither  can  it  possibly  be  inferred 
from  that  act,  (because  it  has  laid  a  penally 
uDon  petitioners,  let  them  be  ever  so  peace- 
able, who  go  up  in  a  number  beyond  ten) 
that  if  they  are  guilty  of  the  greatest  outrages, 
they  are  still  only  punishable  according  to 
that  act,  and  are  not  to  be  called  upon  by  the 
justice  of  their  country,  for  the  most  violent 
riots,  for  terror,  actual  force,  or  any  of  the 
circumstances  of  outrage  you  may  suppose 
men  guilty  of,  in  order  to  enforce  a  petition, 
carried  up  by  a  multitude  of  people. 

A  great  deal  has  been  said  to  you  upon  the 
subject  of  the  law  of  treason ;  and  my  learned 
friend  is  complained  of,  that  he  did  not  em- 
ploy a  great  length  of  time  in  explaining  to 
you  the  doctrine  of  treason,  upon  which  this 
prosecution  is  founded.  He  is  not  at  liberty 
to  state  his  reason  for  himself,  and  therefore 
he  will  pardon  me  that  I  give  one  for  him ; 
and  that  is,  that  he  is  not  accustomed,  idly, 
uselessly,  and  vainly,  to  mis-spend  his  time, 
either  to  make  a  parade  of  his  learning,  or  to 
shew  that  he  has  Wn  guilty  of  a  foohsh  dili- 
gence, in  collecting  from  books,  positions  of 
the  law  of  treason,  of  which  no  mortal  man 
can  entertain  a  doubt ;  for  you  will  observ  e, 
that  even  now,  in  the  stage  of  this  cause  in 
which  we  are,  neither  of  the  learned  gentle- 
men you  have  heard,  neither  my  learned 
friend  who  opened  the  defence,  nor  the  learn- 
ed gentleman  whom  you  have  last  heard, 
have  made  a  doubt,  that  that  which  was  de- 
scribed by  the  Attorney  General  shortly,  b 
an  act  of  levying  war ;  that  is  to  say,  an  in- 
surrection of  a  multitude,  either  to  redress  a 
pretended  public  grievance,  to  repeal  a  law, 
to  change  religion,  in  short^  to  eflcct  any  pur- 
pose contrary  to  law,  in  which  the  subjects  of 
the  kingdom  at  large  are  interested,  bv  force, 
and  which  consequently  must  naturaJly  pro- 


023] 


for  High  TreasM* 


A.  D.  1781. 


[GSO 


^ce  force  in  opposition  to  it,,  and  thus  beget 
a  state  of  war. 

I  do  not  mean  to  make  use  of  technical 
language  to  you,  because,  if  I  am  so  happy  as 
to  explain  to  vou  what  I  mean,  you  will  un- 
derstand me  better  than  if  I  was  to  resort  to 
law  books,  and  make  use  of  technical  expres- 
sions. Will  any  man  deny  that  this  act  is 
treason  ?  or  is  it  a  new  doctrine  ?  No  person 
wh9  has  been  one  year  at  Uie  inns  ofcourt, 
and  has  looked  into  one  book  relating  to  cri- 
minal law,  is  a  stranger  to  it.  The  25th  of 
Edward  the  third  did  not  make  Uus  the  law 
of  England ;  *it  was  the  law  of  England  from 
the  earliest  time,  long  before  any  written 
laws  were  known ;  what  we  call  the  common 
law  of  the  land ;  and  it  must  be  the  law  of 
every  country ;  for  without  it  no  country  can 
exist,  no  eoyemment  can  be  upheld.  If  a 
lawless  multitude  ma)r  rise  with  force,  take 
the  executive  power  into  their  own  hands, 
and  redress  grievances ;  if  they  may  assume 
the  legislative  power,  and  say,  '  We  are  the 
governors  of  this  country ;  vou  who  have  the 
power  of  making  laws  shall  nave  it  no  longer  i 
Dut  this  law  shall  be  made,  or  that  shall  be 
undone,"  no  government  can  exist;  and 
wherever  there  is  an  insurrection  of  a  multi- 
tude, by  force  to  repeal  a  law,  no  man  ever 
yet  hesitated  to  pronounce,  that  that  was 
iiish  treason,  because  it  is  levying  war :  you 
wul  see  it  cannot  be  otherwise.  If  a  multi- 
tude of  people  thus  endeavour  to  enforce 
their  lawless  pretentions,  in  opposition  to  the 
established  government,  what  must  take 
place  I  Law  is  at  an  end  till  thev  are  fuelled. 
If  they  are  yielded  to,  they  are  tne  legislators, 
the  sovereigns  of  the  country ;  the  govern^ 
ment  exists  no  longer.  If  they  are  opposed, 
a  state  of  war  takes  place ;  a  state  of  force,  in 
which  he  that  is  the  stronger  must  prevail. 
Courts  of  justice  must  be  at  an  end,  such  liti- 

faitions  cannot  there  be  determined ;  no  tri- 
unal  can  decide  the  dispute,  it  must  be  ter- 
minated by  the  sword. 

^  All  this  is  obvious  to  the  meanest  capa- 
city, that  reflects  upon  it  a  moment;  and  this 
is  the  plain,  and  simple,  and  intelligible  doc- 
trine, upon  which  tne  cases,  whicii  I  shall 
not  trouble  you  on,  of  Dammarce  that  was 
mentioned,  and  many  others,  have  been  de- 
termined ;  upon  which  I  shall  only  say,  that 
supposing  the  guilt  of  the  noble  lord  is  made 
to  appear,  supposing  he  is  affected  by  what 
has  i>een  done,  the  crimes  of  those  who  have 
again  and  again  suffered,  in  the  case  of  Dam- 
Tifiaree  and  many  others,  are  nothing  in  the 
balance.  The  case  of  Dammaiee  was  an  en- 
raged rabble  got  together,  to  destroy  some 
meeting-houses ;  and  two  men  were  there 
convicted  of  levying  war,  one  of  whom  only 
called  out  to  the  mob  '*  to  follow  him  to  one 
fire/*  and  was  present  at  another,  and  took 
some  goods  and  flung  them  in  the  fire,  en- 
couraging them,  ana  crying,  "  Down  with 
the  Presbyterians !"  and  two  meeting-houses 
were  destroyed,  and  no  more ;  a  mer«  trifle,  a 

^VOL.  XXL 


nothing  to  what  we  have  here  liad  expe^ 
rience  of.  .  ' 

It  is  not  that  case  alone,  but  there  ;ue  cases 
without  end  :  indeed,  if  there  had  been  none 
no'man  could  doubt,  but  that  tjiose  who  en-» 
gage  in  such  a  transaction,  levy  w*ar  against 
the  state;  because  they  set  up  themselves 
against  the  government,  with  force  attack  it, 
and  can  by  force  only  be  resisted,  and  there- 
fore introduce  a  state  of  war ;  for  I  know  no 
true  description  of  a  state  of  war  in  a  country^ 
except  that  in  which,  between  subjects  en-* 
g^iged  on  different  sides,  force  only  can  de-> 
cide  the  question.  Those  who  engage  here 
to  repeal  a  law,  supposing  that  to  be  proved, 
what  do  they  say  ?  They  tell  the  king,  who 
has  the  executive  power,  whose  first  and  most 
important  duty  it  is  to  convene  together  and 
protect  his  parUaments  in  free  deliberation, 
that  he  shall  not  exercise  that  power ;  that 
he.  as  part  of  the  parliament,  sitting  in  Uiqr 
judgment  of  law  always  in  it,  sh4ll  not  exer« 
cise  that  part  of  legislative  power.  To  the 
parliament  itself  they  say,  ''  Though  the  con« 
stitutioa  of  your  country  has  made  you  the 
legislators,  we  will  take  that  power  out  of 
your  hands;  you  shall  be  legislators  no  s 
longer ;  it  is  not  you  that shallenact,  it  is 
not  you  that  shall  repeal ;  we  will  do  it,  we, 
who  are" — what  ?  woo  are,  and  must  be,  and 
can  be,  nothins;  else  than  traitors  to  their 
country,  and  reoels  against  the  state. 

I  hope  I  do  not,  I  am  sure  I  do  not  mean, 
to  strain  the  doctrine  of  treason  one  inch,  or 
a  smaller  space,  beyond  that  which  the  pre* 
decessors  of  the  learned  judges  have  long  ago, 
upon  the  soundest  princip^s,  decided;  and 
as  little  would  I  attempt  to  aggravate  the  guilt 
of  the  prisoner  at  the  oar,  or  to  strain  the  evi- 
dence which  has  been  produced  against  him. 

The  question  which  you  Vill  have  to  decide 
upon  the  noble  lord,  will  be,  as  it  seems  to  ' 
me,  whether  he  has  been  guilty  of  levying 
war  in  this  way?  that  is,  whether  he  has 
been  a  partaker,  a^promoter,  and  inciter  of  an 
insurrection,  made  against  the  government  of 
this  country,  to  repeal  by  force  the  law  that 
you  have  heard  oi  ?  That  will  be  the  ques- 
tion. If  there  has  been  an  insurrection  to 
repeal  that  law,  if  the  prisoner  at  the  bar  is 
in  judgment  of  law  one  of  the  insurgents,  he 
has  then  committed  treason  against  the  state; 
he  has  been  guilty  of  levying  war ;  and  the 
learned  judges  wiU  tell  you,  it  is  not  necessary 
that  he  should  do  the  mischief  that  is  done, 
with  his  own  hand,  llie  general  of  an  army 
seldom  puts  to  death  one  of  the  enemy  with 
his  own  hand ;  he  fires  not  the  musquet,  sel- 
dom points  the  sword ;  the  actual,  immediate 
mischief  is  done  by  the  hands  of  the  soldiers 
whom  he  directs  and  commands ;  and  if  there 
has  been  such  an  insurrection  as  I  suppose 
there  has  existed,  and  the  noble  lora  has 
borne  a  part  in  it,  has  incited  it,  partly  by  his 
expressions,  and  partly  by  his  actions ;  then, 
whether  he  was  present  at  all  or  any  of  those 
places'  whsre  the  worst  of  the  mischief  was 

3  S 


6^7] 


21  GEORGE  IIL      Proceedhgt  agamsi  Lard  George  Gmbm^     [628 


cmnmittedy  the  niilt  of  all  falls  as  much  upon 
his  head,  as  if  he  himself  had  put  the  fire- 
brand, to  every  house  that  was  destroyed. 

This  will  not  be  disputed  with  me,  it  is  not 
doubted  by  either  of  the  learned  eent]emen ; 
and  I  am  extremely  happy,  that  ifl  misinter- 
pret any  part  of  this  law,  or  state  any  thing 
too  strong;  to  you,  I  shall  be  corrected  by  the 
learned  judges  who  hear  me.  I  hope  that 
not  any  thing  I  have  stated  to  you  will  de- 
serve the  name  of  conundrums,  which  is  one 
of  the  appellations  given,  in  the  haste  of  elo- 
quence, I  presume,  by  one  of  the  gentlemen 
who  last  addressed  you.  I  take  it  to  be  clear 
law  as  any  to  be  found  in  our  books,  and 
never  to  this  moment  disputed. 

In  the  first  place,  we  are  to  consider  here, 
whether  there  has  been  an  insurrection  to  re- 
peal this  law  ?  Then  we  will  enquire,  whether 
'the  noble  prisoner  had  a  part  in  it?  Now, 
that  there  has  been  an  insurrection  to  repeal 
this  law,  I  think  I  need  not  take  up  much  of 
your  time  to  prove ;  for  mark  what  has  been 
done.  I  know  the  exceptions  that  are  at- 
temoted  by  the  learned  centlemen,  which  I 
shall  by  and  by  answer ;  nut  see  shortly  what 
has  been  done— A  vast  multitude  of  people, 
greater  than  can  possibly  be  consistent  with 
order,  to  the  number  of  thousands  without  a 
name,  (for^hether  «0,  30,  40,000,  remains 
perfectly  in  the  dark)  met  together  at  Coach- 
maker's-hall,  and  other  places,  and  finally  in 
St,  George Vfields,  for  the  purpose  of  carrying 
a  petition  to  parliaVnent :  they  come  thither 
with  that  force  upon  Friday  the  2nd  of  June ; 
they  fill  every  avenue  of  the  House^  they  block 
up  the  lobby,  they  insult  some  of  the  mem- 
bers of  the  legislature,  they  made  it  barely 
possible  for  many  others  to  find  their  way  to 
their  seats  in  that  House;  their  noise,  their 
riot,  their  ^miult,  is  such,  that  the  business 
of  the  legislature  cannot  go  on ;  the  repre- 
sentatives of  you  and  of  us  all  sit  still  with 
their  hands  before  them,  the  prisoners,  the 
slaves  of  these  humble  petitioners ;  for  slaves 
,  we  certainly  were,  as^  it  is  proved,  in  every 
sense  of  the  word ;  scarce  ventiu-lng  to  look 
out  at  the  door,  cxpectine  every  moment  vio- 
lence within,  and  not  knowing  that  death 
would  not  be  the  fate  of  those  who  should 
dare  to  say  a  word  in  opposition  to  the  re- 
quests of  these  petitioners.  The  conduct  of 
many  of  the  members  of  the  House  is  report- 
ed to^  this  disorderly  tumultuous  assemoly ; 
they  are  told  who  are  their  fiiends,  and  who 
are  their  enemies.  I  am  not  saying  now  by 
^hom  they  are  told,  by  somebody  they  are 
told,  that  the  business  cannot  go  on^  that  the 
House  cannot  even  divide  upon  theur  petition 
till  they  retire.  What  b  their  conduct  ?  Do 
they  move  ?  How  happened  it  that  the  mem- 
bers of  that  House  were  not  prisoners  for 
days?  Was  it  any  merit  in  the  petitioners 
that  they  did  not  so  ren:iain  ?  that  they  set 
them  at  libcr^  ?  Did  they  put  an  end  to  theu* 
imprisonment  ?  No ;  they  were  set  at  liberty 
by  thatj  ^ich  I  hope  we  niall  never  live  to  s«e 

t 


again  in  this  country,  they  were  set  at  fiberty 
by  a  militaiy  fi>rce.  The  Ic^abUire  of  this 
country,  the  parliament,  tbe  commons  of 
England  there  represented,  could  not  protect 
themselves,  could  not  debate,  could  not  deli- 
berate, could  not  decide:  the  king,  whose 
peculiar  duty  it  was  to  protect  them,  coidd 
not,  by  the  ordinary  exercise  of  his  power,  the 
civil  power  I  me^,  that  which  alone  we 
know  m  the  ordinary  course  of  the  adminis- 
tration of  public  aSairs ;  he  was  obliged  to 
have  recourse  to  his  army.  And  in  vdiat 
state  was  this  country  then?  Permit  roe  to 
stop  here,  and  call  your  attention  for  a  mo- 
ment. Good  God !  *  is  that  a  state  of  peace, 
when  the  senators  of  a  great  nation  cannot 
by  themselves,  by  the  magistrates  of  the 
country,  defend  themselves  n-om  actual  vio- 
lence ?  And  I  will  venture  to  say,  there  was 
not  a  man  in  tins  town,  there  was  not  a  per* 
son  who  had  any  connection  ^th  a  fiiend 
then  in  tlutt  House,  who  did  not  tremble  for 
his  fate. 

The  mischiefs  of  such  a  state,  besides  the 
dreadfid  insult  to  the  House  itself,  I  need  not 
paint  to  you,  for  ^ey  are  obvious.  You  have 
the  same  connections  with  other  men ;  you 
have  brothers,  you  have  fieithers,  you  mtva 
sons,  afld  you  can  very  easily  conceive  what 
must  have  been  felt,  by  all  who  had  any  thiiij^ 
to  wish,  or  hope,  for  those  who  were  in  this 
lamentable  state  of  imprisonment,  unknown 
before,  I  believe,  in  any  civilized  country. 
Those  who  call  this  a  state  of  peace,  who  say 
that  my  learned  friend's  accusing  criminal 
that  are  the  authors  of  this  dreadtul  disorder 
with  levyine  war  against  the  king,  is  a  dread- 
fid  reproach  upon  the  persons  entrusted  by 
his  majesty  witn  prosecuting  for  the  sake  of 
public  justice,  diner  very  widely  fi-om  me.  I 
wish  never  to  stretch  reasons;  but  if  I  had 
been  called  upon  at  that  moment  to  say,wbe* 
ther  this  country  was  in  a  state  of  peace  or 
war,  whether  there  then  had  begun  a  rebel* 
lion,  I  should  have  taken  a  great  deal  of  time 
to  consider  it;  I  should  not  have  thought  it 
the  work  of  a  moment  to  decide,  that  this 
country  was  then  in  a  state  of  p^tce ;  for  I 
cannot  help  myself  thinking,  that,  at  that 
time,  the  real  power  of  the  country  was  in 
that  turbulent  unruly  multitude,  by  which 
the  House  of  Commons  was  then  lH»et— be- 
set for  the  purpose  of  enforcing  a  repeal  of 
that  law.  The  woids,  *«  No  Popery !  Repeal, 
repeal!"  echoed  agun  and  again  in  that 
House ;  one  of  the  door-keepers  who  attend- 
ed,  telluig  you,  that  he  was  so  fiightened,  that 
he  does  not  know  how,  at  last,  the  lobby  was 
cleared ;  and  such  a  state  of  fi[>rce  vad  out- 
rage prevuled,  as,  I  believe,  you  nor  any 
other  person  present  have  ever  heard  ^'^^ 

This  was  unquestionably  the  case,  ^^w 
followed?  The  object  was,  to  repeal  a  law 
which  had  been  made,— fidsely  as  it  has  bcoi 
said,  wickedly  as  it  hta,  in  my  opinion,  beoi 
said,— tolerating  or  encouraging  V^V^i^ 
the  object  of  i&X  repealing  law  was  on^  ^ 


699] 


>• 


Tftoson* 


A.  D.  1781. 


[630 


obliterate  from  the  statutes  of  this-coimtry 
certain  clauses  in  a  law  that  had  been  written 
m  blood— cruel  almost  beyond  example.  I 
do  not  know  that  there  b  another  instance, 
though  I  believe  there  is  one  in  the  statutes, 
in  which  perpetual  imprisonment  b  intiictea 
upon  a  suDJect  of  this  country ;  and  it  is  not 
for  the  honour  of  the  laws  of  a  free  country 
that  any  man  should  be  condemned  to  lan- 
guish out  his  life  in  a  miserable  dungeon;  to 
put  him  to  death,  is  mercy  in  comparison  of 
such  a  punishment.  To  repeal  this  cruel  law, 
which  was  certainly  the  enect  of  faction,  for 
it  was  made  in  the  reign  of  a  man  dear  to  the 
present  times,  and  dear  for  ever  he  ou^ht  to 
he  to  the  human  race,  for  the  most  unmter- 
nipted  love  of  Uberty  civil  and  religious,  for 
his  noble,  his  most  glorious  and  successful 
exertions  for  the  support  of  both.  The  law 
made  in  kinf  William's  reign,  which  it  was 
the  object  of  this  act  to  repeal,  was  certainly 
made  much  against  the  inclination  of  that 
illustrious  prince,  and  because  the  miserable 
faction  which  then  distracted  this  country 
made  it  impossible  for  him  to  resist  it  To 
repeal  this  repealing  law  was  the  object  of 
this  tumultuous  assembly ;  these  petitioners 
insisted  upon  that  repeal. 

When  this  law  was  not  repealed,  when  the 
House  had  firmness  enoueh  not  to  be  over- 
awed bv  those  who  wanted  to  be  their  mas- 
ters, what  happened  next?  Did  they  stop? 
bid  they  disperse,  or  did  they  set  about  enforc- 
ing this  repeal  by  arsuroents  of  anoUier  sort  ? 
By  arc;uments  exact^  similar  to  tho?e  which 
prevailed  in  the  case  of  Dammaree.  and  of  the 
men  who  were  convicted  for  pulling  down 
meeting-houses.  They  resortea  first  to  the 
chapels  of  foreign  ambassadors,  because  there 
the  Roman  Catholic  religion  was  exercised ; 
and  these  they  demolished  and  plundered. 
When  I  sajr  plundered,  it  was  mere  plunder 
for  destruction.  This  was  upoA  Friday.  What 
was  next  done  ? 

Upon  Sunday,  one  chapel  and  some  houses 
of  Roman  Catholics  are  plundered ;  some  of 
the  ofienders  are  taken  up ;  persons  appear  as 
witnesses  against  them.  What  follows? 
Those  who  appeared  as  witnesses,  and  tiiose 
who  were  active  in  taking  them  up,  have 
their  houses  pulled  down. 

Upon  the  Monday  night,  an  attack  is  made 
on  sir  George  Savile,  a  name  too  respectable 
to  receive  any  advantage  from  panegyrics  of 
mine ;  his  house  is  attacked,  not  demolished, 
because  saved  by  a  military  force ;  the  same 
military  force  which  dispersed  the  mob  afler 
the  mischiefs  it  had  done  at  the  chapels  of 
both  ambassadors.    This  is  upon  the  Monday. 

What  is  done  upon  the  Tuesday?  The 
same  violence  repeated  of  every  sort.  First, 
a  tumultuous  assembly  here,  ready  to  have 
acted  the  same  tragedy  over  again,  to  have 
repeated  ihe  same  insult  upon  the  House; 
but  that  ignominious  scene  necessarily  again 
caused  the  military  force  to  be  called  in  to 
protect  our  legislature ;  otherwise^  it  cannot 


be  doubted  but  the  same  noise,  the  same 
tumult,  evei^  thine  that  passed  before,  in  the 
lobby,  would  have  oeen  repeated  to  the  mem- 
bers of  the  House,  A  noble  lord,  coming 
down  to  discharge  his  duty  in  parliament, 
narrowly  escaping  with  his  life;  Mr.  Hyde, 
because  he  interposed  to  protect  that  noble 
lord,  was  immediately  marked  by  the  mob  ; 
there  was  a  crv  instantly  afler,  to  ^  to 
Hyde's,  and  his  house  is  pulled  down.  From 
tlience,  a  cry  *  To  Newgate !'  that  gaol  is  de- 
stroyed, because  in  that  gaol  those  offenders 
who  had  been  before  apprehended  were  con- 
fined. 

I  need  not  go  through  the  several  outrages: 
they  were  dreadful.  You  have  heard  it  prov- 
ed, and  YOU  must  know  yourselves,  that  vio- 
lence and  outrage  were  felt  in  many  places; 
dreaded  every,  where,  and  resisted  by  none 
but  a  military  force;  the  law  was  at  an  end* 
magistrates  were  nothing ;  and  a  very  consi- 
derable military  force  was  necessary  to  sub- 
due this  insurrection.  All  this  happened; 
and  there  can  be  no  doubt,  I  think,  if  this 
happened  bv  the  same  persons,  pursuing  the 
same  end,  toe  repeal  of^  the  law,  that  it  is  a 
violent  insuiredtion,  an  actual  war  against 
the  government,  against  the  legislature  of 
this  country,  in  order  to  compel  by  force  a  re- 
peal of  this  law.  If  it  is,  I  snail  say  no  more 
than  I  have  done  already,  to  convince  you 
that  the  persons  who  are  guilty  of  these  pro* 
ceedings  are  guilty  of  Uie  crime  of  high-trea- 
son. 1  assure  you  I  do  not,  God  lorbid  I 
should !  wilfully  stretch  the  law  beyond  what 
I  take  to  be  its  clear  and  settled  import. 

If  this  has  been  committed,  if  this  was  the 
deplorable  state  of  England,  we  come  next  to 
consider,  whether  the  noble  prisoner  has  had 
that  share  in  it  which  involves  him  in  the 
guilt.  It  has  been  asked.  What  possiblo 
motive  could  engage  the  prisoner  in  enter- 
prizes  so  illegal,  so^ngcrous,  so  desperate? 
in  answer  to  that,  I  cannot  look  into  the  hu- 
man heart ;  but  I  know  that  the  worst  of  all 
enterprises  have  been  produced,  and  repeat- 
edlv  oeen  produced,  in  the  world»  by  false 
ambition,  aiming  at  uiyust  pre-eminence; 
and  likewise  by  false  notions  of  religion, 
which,  though  felt  to  a  certain  degree  very 
often,  are  seldom  quite  free  from  hypocrisy . 
and  if  the  mind  of  any  man  is  infatuated  with 
religious  zeal,  and  has  also  room  left  in  it  foi 
ambition,  there  does  not  exist  in  human  na- 
ture a  more  dreadful  composition;  because 
such  a  man  will  sometimes  even  deceive  hln>- 
self;  he  will  constantiy  attempt  to  deceive 
others ;  and^  under  the  mistake  of  zeal  for  re- 
ligion, he  will  endeavour  to  effectuate  every 
purpose,  wicked  or  not,  that  can  serve  or  pro- 
mote the  ends  of  his  ambition.  I  need  not 
recal  to  your  n>ind  the  history  of  an  age  not 
very  distant  in  this  country,  in  which  these 
qualities,  miiu^  togetiier  in  some  very  emi^ 
nent  men,  desolated  this  nation,  and  made  it 
for  many  years  a  scene  of  confusion,  horror, 
and  blood&hed. 


631]  21  GEORGE  III.      Proeeedhigs  against  Lord  George  Gordon,      [63Sf 


Whether  these  were  the  motives  of  the  no- 
ble lord,  I  do  not  pretend  to  decide.  J  am  to 
judge  from  his  .actions  only;  and  if  he  has 
been  guilty  of  that,  which  it  is  the  object  of 
this  prosecution  to  prove  upon  him ;  for  we 
cannot  dive  into  his  neart,  and  truly  discern 
the  motives  upon  which  he  acted ;  whatever 
those  motives  may  be,  he  'must  suffer  the 


ceeded  by  their  unanimity ;  he  desired  they 
also  would  be  unanimous ;  that  he  would  not 
go  up  with  the  Petition,  unless  he  was  met 
by  20,000  people:  he  recommended  it  to 
them  to  come  wi^  some  mark  of  distinction, 
as  a  blue  ribbon,  or  blue  cockade,  that  they 
might  be  distinguished  from  their  foes ;  that 
he  would  be  answerable  they  should  not  be 


portion  which  the  law  has  allotted  for  his  I  molested ;  he  would  not  have  them  run  any 
crimes.  ^  '  risk  he  would  not  himself  run ;  that  he  wish- 

ed so  well  to  the  cause^  he  was  ready  to  eo  to 
death  for  the  cause,  or  to  go  to  the  gallowt 
for  it." 

Here  are  three  witnesses ;  Hay,  Metcalfe, 
and  Mr.  Anstruther.— These  are  the  expres- 
sions  previous  to  the  meeting  in  St.  George's- 
fields.  In  St.  GeorgeVfields  this  assembly 
met ;  they  had  their  flags ;  on  some,  "  The 
Protestant  Association ;'"  on  others,  '*  NoPo^ 
pery  !"  they  had  all,  according  to  the  desire 
of  the  noble  lord,  blue  cockades  in  their  hats. 
They  are  desired  to  go  into  divisions,  (that 
was  settled  at  Coachmakers'-hall)  and  march 
in  them ;  in  those  divisions  they  came  to  the 
House ;  when  they  came  to  the  House,  the 
noble  lord  several  times  addressed  them :  he 
tells  them  again  and  a«un  what  is  said  by 
this  man,  what  is  said  by  another;  "the 
Speaker  says,  they  are  come  under  the  pre^ 
tence  of  religion ;  lord  North  calls  them  a 
mob;  amenmer  for  Bristol  is ag^st them ; 
Mr.  Rous  moves  for  calling  in  the  militaiy  or 
the  dvil  power."  This  tne  noble  lord  (foes. 
They  apply  to  bun,  having  still  their  cockades, 
thousands  about  the  House  stopping  up  every 
avenue.  The  noble  lord  addresses  them 
many  times;  he  states  the  case  to  them,  and' 
tells  them,  "that  the  business  cannot  be 
done,  tiierccanbc  no  division  till  they  de- 
part; that  almost  all  the  House,  excepting 
three  or  four  individuals,  are  for  a^joumix^ 
till  Tuesday.''  They  offer  to  go,  if  he  will  ad- 
vise them  so ;  they  will  take  nis  advice,  and 
he  leaves  it  entirdy  to  themselves :  "  he  ad- 
vises them  to  be  temperate  and  firm ;  some- 
timQ;5  advises  them  to  adhere,  sometimes  ad- 
vises them  to  be  steady."  Mr.  Anstruther 
mentioned  a  variety  of  things  that  passed  be- 
tween the  noble  lord  and  them,  when  they 
were  in  tiie  lobby,  and  when  he  was  in  the 
^lery,  and  at  the  time  when  there  was  great 
confiision ;  and  among  other  things,  the  no- 
ble lord  undertakes  to  tell  them  what  is  the 
true  stete  of  the  case.    "  I  will  tell  you  how 


Now,  gentiemen,  let  me  consider  the  part 
which  the  noble  lord  has  suited,  and  the  evi- 
dence by  which  that  is  proved.  I  will  state  it 
shortiy  to  you,  and  then  observe  upon  the 
evidence  by  which  it  is  proved. 

The  noble  lord  met  several  times  at  the  dif- 
ferent places  where  the  Protestant  Association 
were  assembled  :  he  v^as  the  president  of  that 
assembly.  His  object  was  to  repeal  this  law. 
At  Coachmakers'-hall  it  was  decided ;  and  he 
strongly  supported  the  idea  of  meeting  in  St. 
George's-fields  with  that  immense  nun»ber. 
At  that  Coachmakers*-hall  he  holds  language 
dreadfid  almost  to  repeat  to  you.  I  state  this 
to  you,  supposing  the  witnesses  have  spoken 
the  truth ;  tor  at  that  place,  or  at  one  of  the 
meetings,  when  he  is  exhorting  those  of 
whom  he  was  president,  he  tells  them,  "  that 
his  m^esty's  counsellors,  or  his  advisers,  had 
brought  him  into  the  same  situation  with 
James  the  2nd,  afier  his  abdication.*'  He 
read  the  kine'S  coronation-oath:  he  said, 
•'  'the  king  had  broken  that  oath."  .Speaking 
of  14stoimtiymen  the  Scotch,  he  said,  "his 
coufitrymen  did  not  mince  trie  matter ;  they 
sppke  out."  You  will  remark,  genUemen,  it 
occurs  again  and  again :  there  is  no  proof  of 
any  persons  in  Scotland  speaking  out,  in  any 
other  sense  than  in  that  you  will  find  by  and 
*>y>  ^y  acts  of  force.  He  advised  them  "  sted- 
fastly  to  adhere  to  so  good  a  cause."  This  is 
Mr.  Hay's  evidence.  He  tells  you  farther, 
that  he  saw  the  person  who  carried  the  flag 
down  at  the  House  of  Commons,  canying  the 
dame  flag  at  the  bummg  of  the  Fleet-pnson. 
It  is  a  part  of  this  gentleman's  evidence,  as 
of  several  others,  that  ^  the  ;ioble  lord  de- 
sired that  they  would  nave  cockades;"  and 
that  is  indeed  proved  by  his  own  witness,  Mr, 
Middleton. 

Mr,  Metcalf  tells  you.  that  the  noble  lord 
told  the  people  when  tney  were  assembled, 
''that  the  Scotch  had  succeeded  by  their  una- 
nimity ;  desiredthat  they  would  be  unanimous ; 
hoped  no  one  who  had  signed  the  Petition, 
tvould  be  ashamed  or  afraid  to  shew  himself 
in  the  cause :  that  he  wpuld  not  present  the 
Petition,  unless  he  was  ihet  in  St.  George's- 
fields  by  20,000  people ;  he  would  bp  answer- 
able for  aqy  that  were  molested  on  account  of 
the  meeting ;  he  wished  well  to  the  cause,  and 
would  go  to  the  gallows  in  or  for  it,"  the 


upon  Tuesday ;  there  are  for  taking  it  into 
consideration  now,  myself  and  five  or  six; 
the  rest  are  against  it :  if  it  is  not  now  taken 
into  consideration,  the  Petition  will  be  lost  j 
to-morn>w  the  House  does  not  sit,  Monday  is 


witness  is  not  certam  which ;  «  he  would  ;  the  king's  birthday,  Tuesday  the  parliament 
— " ••       "     '*  may  be  dissolved,  or  prorogued."    This  pass- 

ed in  tiic  lobby. 


lnot  present  the  petition  of  a  lukewam^  peo- 
pleT* 


Mr.  Anstruther  proves  to  you  expressions 
pf  the  same  sort;  <<  that  the  Scotch  had  sue- 


Mr.  Bowen  gives  you  a  much  fiillcr  detail 
of  what  passed,  and  of  the  sev«l  tmp  sw 


633] 


Jot  High  Treason, 


by  the  noble  lord ;  be  says  that  other  people 
spoke  to  this  mob,  desirins  they  would  de- 
part ;  they  called  out, '  Lord  George  Gordon !' 
He  told  him  what  he  had  heard  in  the  lobby, 
that  these  persons  would  go  if  he  desired 
them.  Lora  Georse  Gordon  went  to  the  gal- 
lery ;  he  addressed  them,  desired  them  to  be 
^met,  peaceable,  and  steady :  "  His  majesty 
IS  a  gracious  monarch,  and  when  he  hears 
that  uie  people  ten  miles  round  are  collecting,, 
no  doubt  he  will  send  his  ministers  private 
orders  to  repeal  the  bill/'  Then  he  men- 
tions an  attempt  to  introduce  this  bill  into 
Scotland ;  *'  the  Scotch  had  no  redress  till 
they  pulled  down  the  mass  houses,"  or,  if 
those  were  not  the  words,  they  were  to  the 
same  effect ;  or  **  when  they  pulled  down  the 
mass  houses,  they  had  redress:  that  then 
lord  Weymouth  sent  official  assurances,  that 
the  act  should  not  be  extended  to  them  ;  and 
why  should  the  Scotch  be  better  off  than 
you?" 

Mr.  Cater  follows  this  gentleman  ;  and  he 
gives  you  an  account  or  expressions  very 
much  to  the  same  effect.  He  tells  you,  that 
persons  were  there  calling  out,  that  they 
would  clear  the  lobby,  if  his  loraship  wished 
it ;  they  would  do  it  directly,  and  without  any 
trouble. 

The  prisoner  said,  "  I  will  tell  you  how  your 
case  stands ;  I  have  moved  to  have  your  Pe- 
tition taken  now  into  consideration;  there 
are  alderman  Bull  and  two  or  three  more  for 
it,  the  rest  are  against  it ;  therefore,  if  you 
wish  the  Petition  should  now  be  taken  into 
consideration,  you  may  stay,  or  do  as  you 
please.  He  then  asked  them,  whether  they 
would  choose  to  have  it  now  taken  into  con- 
Mderation  ?"  They  were  all  ^ent  and  atten- 
tive when  he  addressed  them ;  then  they  all 
called  out, "  Now,  now,  now  !''  Then  he  ask- 
ed them, "  Would  yon  wish  to  be  in  the  same 
state  they  are  in  m  Scotland?'*  They  said, 
•*  Yes,  yes."  The  noble  lord's  answer  is, 
«  Well,  well." 

Gentlemen,  all  this  passed  upon  the  Fri- 
day. I  have  told  you  the  mischief  that  was 
done  between  that  time  and  the  Tuesday.  Th^ 
same  tnob  come  down  again  to  the  House  on 
Tuesday,  with  their  blue  cockades,  threaten- 
ing the  same  danger  to  the  members.  A  no- 
ble lord,  in  the  midst  of  them,  had  great  vio- 
lence offered  to  him,  which  was  stopped  onjy 
»  by  the  military.  A  party  of  the  mob  then  go 
to  Mr.  Hyde*s,  and  then  to  Newgate,  with 
their  blue  cockades.  And  how  does  the  no- 
ble prisoner  come  to  that  House  ?— With  his 
blue  cockade — with  that  skme  badge,  with 
iHat  same  bond  of  union  and  sedition,  which 
bad  marked  him  out  as  one  of  those  concern- 
ed in  this  insurrection.  In  this  appearance  he 
comes  down  to  the  House  upon  the  Tuesday. 
How  does  he  depart  ? — ^He  is  carried  away  m 
triumph  by  the  same  mob—his  horses  are 
taken  from  his  carriage,  and  he  is  drawn  into 
the  city.  This  is  proved  to  you  by  his  own  wit- 
ness, sir  Philip  Jeaniogs  Clerke,  who  was 


A.D.  1781/  [634 

carried  very  much  against  his  own  will,  and 
beyond  the  place  he  meant  to  go,  to  the  house 
of  alderman  Bull ;'  for  it  seems,  without  any 
direction  given  by  the  noble  lord,  they  knew 
the  house  in  the  city  to  which  he  would  de- 
sire to  go. 

What  does  the  noble  lord  do  upon  the  Wed- 
nesday ?  He  goes  to  one  of  the  secretaries  of 
state,  and  as  his  counsel  teUs  you,  having  no- 
thing to  do  in  this  transaction,  he  tells  the  se- 
cretary he  wants  an  admission  to  his  nuyesty, 
to  inform  him  that  ''  he  can  be  of  great  ser- 
vice in  suppressing  the  riots.^  This  9ie  noble 
lord  says  nimself  upon  that  very  Wednesday, 
and  afWwards,  when  desired  by  a  person,  he 
writes  his  name  upon  the  protection  that  has 
been  read  to  you ;  that  protection  has  its  ef- 
fect :  the  rabble,  who  were  about  to  attack 
the  house  of  the  man  who  wanted  that  pro- 
tection, and  in  which  a  Roman  Catholic 
lived,  stopped  their  violence,  yielded  to  the 
protection,  and  the  house  was  saved. 

This  is  the  substance  of  what  is  proved 
against  the  noble  lord.  But,  in  the  first  place, 
you  are  told  by  the  gentleman  whom  you  last 
heard, — ^uniform  in  his  eloquence,  for  elo- 
quence he  undoubtedly  has — I  dare  say  he 
was  transported  by  the  unusual  heat  and 
warmth  with  which  you  saw  him  agitated ; 
and  I  ^re  say,  in  cooler  moments,  reflecting 
upon  what  he  said,  he  would  recall  his  ex- 
pressions ;  but,  in  order  to  get  rid  of  this  tes- 
timony, he  tells  you,  that  the  evidence  corres- 
ponds to  the  designs  and  the  views  of  those 
who  are  in  the  prosecution,  and  that  it  has 
been  supported  by  the  scum  of  the  earth ; 
that  was  the  general  characteristic  ^ven  to  the 
witnesses,  the  scum  of  the  earth.  It  was  given 
generally ;  and  as  applied  to  one,  it  will  have 
Rttle  weight,  when  the  same  facts  are  proved 
by  many.  But  who  deserves  that  appellation  ? 
Tne  witnesses  produced  are,  Mr.  Hay,  a  prin- 
ter, who  has  had  the  misfortune  to  have  failed 
in  trade,  to  have  beenji  bankrupt;  and  there- 
fore, for  the  aake  of  a  play  upon  the  word,  he, 
because  he  has  been  unfortunate  in  his  cir- 
cumstances, is  to  be  dishonest ;  because  he 
has  been  a  bankrupt  in  trade,  is  a  bankrupt  in 
conscience ;  and  you  are  to  take  that  gentle- 
man's word,  in  order  to  get  rid  at  once  of  the 
testimony  of  Mr.  Hay,  and  to  suppose,  upon 
his  bold  and  groundless  assertion,  that  Mr. 
Hay,  without  a  motive,  without  interest,  with- 
out possible  reason,  is  guilty  of  wilful  and  cor-, 
rupt  perjury;  for  nothing  less  will  serve  the 
purpose:  and  you  know,  gentlemen,  that 
every  witness,  unless  he  disgraces  and  contra- 
dicts himself,  is  to  be  thought  worthy  of  credit. 
You  know,  upon  such  a  triaV  as  this,  it  is  pe- 
culiarly in  the  power  of  the  prisoner  to  im- 
peach the  character  of  a  witness,  if  he  deserves 
to  be  impeached ;  because  by  a  law  made  fa- 
vourable to  persons  in  the  situation  of  th« 
noble  lord,  he  has  a  list  delivered  him  of  the 
witnesses,  18  days  before  his  trial,  in  order  to 
give  him  an  opportunity  of  knowing  who  they 
are,  where  they  live,  and  wh^t  is  their  r^puta^ 


68S] 


21  6E0B6E  ni.      Proceedings  against  Lord  George  Gordon,      [69S 


tion,  that  he  may  find  out  a  ground,  if  there 
18  any,  to  impeach  their  cremt  Not  an  at- 
tempt is  made  by  evidence  to  impeach  the 
credit  of  Mr.  Hay;  therefore  I  have  a  right  to 
say,  that  unless  you  can  discover,  in  the  tes- 
timony he  has  given,  such  contradictions  as 
will  anect  his  credit,  he  stands  an  honest  un- 
impeached  Englishman  before  you,  and  is  en- 
I  titled  (equallv  virith  every  EngUshman  whose 
character  and  credit  is  not  wounded)  to  your 
belief. 

What  are  the  other  witnesses? — Mr.  An- 
struther,  a  gentleman  at  the  bar;  a  more  ho- 
nourable character  this  island  does  not  boast. 
•  What  is  Mr.  Metcalf  ?— An  attorney  of  un- 
doubted reputation.  Who  is  Mr.  Bowen  ?— A 
clergyman,  whose  reputation  was  never  touch- 
ed ;  an  officiating  chaplain  to  the  House  of 
Commons,  who  was  officiating  to  the  House 
tbat  day.— Mr.  Cater,  a  late  member  of  the 
House  of  Commons,  now  not  sitting  in  it ;  a 
man  of  large  fortune,  and  irreproachable  cha- 
racter, who  could  have  no  temptation  to  de- 
pose a  fraud. 

These  are  the  witnesses  who  speak  to  the 
transactions  at  the  Hall,  and  at  the  House  of 
Commons.  Are  they  to  be  disbelieved?  Is 
slander  to  do  away  that  evidence,  in  answer 
to  which  nothing  can  be  said,  and  against 
which  I  hope  by  and  by  to  shew  you  (where 
I  say  I  hope,  I  only  mean  to  do  my  duty ;  I 
have  no  other  hope)  no  evidence  has  been 
given?  Now,  if  their  evidence  is  true,  what 
consequence  results?  What  is  the  language 
to  men  formed  into  a  body,  meeting  for  a 
public  purpose,  the  object  of  which  is  to  re- 
'  peal  a  law  as  they  suppose  affecting  the  Pro- 
testant religion,  which  nis  majesty  oy  his  co- 
ronation oath  is  bound  to  support?  The  lan- 
guage is,  ''  he  has  violated,  or  broken,  that 
oath ;  he  is  in  the  same  situation  that  king 
James  the  second  was,  when  he  had  abdicated 
the  throne."  If  one  meant  to  sound  rebellion 
through  the  land,  in  terms  the  loudest,  the 
strongest,  and  most  effectual,  does  language 
furnish  one  with  expressions  that  would  better 
ahswer  the  purpose  ? 

What  is  said  about  the  Scotch  ?  "  That 
they  spoke  out,  they  had  not  minced  the 
matter.^' 

What  is  spoken  about  **  sharing  the  com- 
mon daneerr  about  going  to  the  gallows?" 
Strange  ideas  to  enter  into  the  heaos  of  men, 
whose  objects  were  perfectly  peaceable ;  who 
looked  not  to  any  thing  like  force, — ^who  were 
the  last  of  all  men  that  sh6uld  luive  dreamed 
of  danger. 

What  is  the  li^iguage  throughout,  from  be- 
^nning  to  end,  yi  the  lobby  of  the  House  of 
Commons  ?  The  allusion  to  the  Scotch  again 
and  again,  in  the  plainest  terms,  as  proved  by 
Mr.  Bowen,  Mr.  Cater,  Mr.  Anstruthcr,  and 
all  the  rest  of  this  evidence,  with  regard  to  the 
Scotch,  is  helped,  though  it  don't  appear  to 
me  to  be  material,  by  these  witnesses,  two  of 
whom  speak  to  the  destruction  of  Roman 
Catholic  chapek  in  Edinburgh  in  1779.  which 


was  not  necessary,  because  the  noble  lord 
himself  said  to  the  mob,  "  that  when  the 
mass-houses  were  destroyed,  the  people  of 
Scotland  had  redress ;  that  then  lord  Wey^ 
mouth  sent  them  an  official  letter,  that  the  de- 
sign of  introducing  the  same  law  there  should 
be  dropped." 

Mr.  Cater  savs,  he  asked  them,  as  Mr.  An- 
struthcr I  think  proves  too,  "  whether  they 
would  not  be  in  as  good  a  condition  as  the 
Scotch  ?  whether  they  would  not  choose  to  be 
as  well  off  as  the  Scotch?^  Mr.  Cater  said, 
the  mob  said,  «  Yes,  yes.'!—"  WeU,  well,*' 
replied  the  noble  lord. 

Need  I  argue  upon  the  force  and  result  of 
these  expressions?  Whatb  it  he  means  by 
the  Scotch  speaking  out,  and  not  mincing  the 
matter  ?  Why,  that  they  by  force  had  prevent- 
ed the  law  being  extended  to  them,  by  the  de- 
struction of  the  mass-houses.  I  will  not  waste 
ypur  time  in  endeavouring  to  enforce  this,  be* 
cause  I  am  sure'  neither  you,  nor  any  man 
who  has  heard  the  evidence  that  has  been 
given,  can  possibly  entert^  the  least  doubt, 
upon  Uie  meaning  of  the  speeches  of  the 
noble  lord ;  and  ifne  had  hinaself  been  asked 
at  the  time,  what  was  the  meaning  of  what  be 
said  about  the  Scotch,  he  would  have  thought 
a  man  must  be  a  driveller,  who  did  not  under- 
stand him.  Indeed  thelangoage  is  express. 
Then  could  there  possibly  be  a  more  direct, 
immediate,  professed  incitement  to  the  very- 
mischief  which  must  follow,  the  destruction 
of  the  Roman  Catholic  chapels  here,  as  the 
Roman  Catholic  chapels  haa  been  destroyed 
at  Edinburgh?  for  vou  will  remember,  that 
very  thine  followed  in  this  town  upon  the 
Friday  night 

Other  expressions  there  are,  over  and  over 
ajgain;  Be  steady !  be  firm !  This  I  hear  men- 
tioned as  if  it  was  nothing.  The  noble  lord 
says,  '^  he  will  not  tell  them  what  to  do,  the 
matter  will  be  put  an  end  to  if  the  petition 
does  not  come  on  now,  the  parliament  don't 
sit  to-morrow,  Monday  b  the  Icing's  birthday, 
and  Tuesday  the  parliament  may  oe  dissolved 
or  prorogued ;  if  you  want  it  to  come  on,  you 
may  stay,  or  do  as  you  please."-^ — Stay,  or  do 
as  you  please !  what !  stay  against  the  will  of 
the  members  of  parliament !  stay  to  obstruct 
them!  stay  to  imprison  them!  for  they  were 
then  in  a  state  ot  imprisonment  Stay  till  a 
military  force  shall  relieve  them !  "  Or,  you 
may  do  what  you  please!*'  What,  in  God's 
name,  could  they  do,  unless  by  violent  hands 
put  the  members  to  death,  or  practise  an  im- 
prisonment of  a  dav !  It  cannot  be  imagined 
any  thing  less  can  be  meant,  than  by  actual 
force  to  compel  a  consent  to  the  repeal  of  that 
law.  Then  what  is  the  consequence  ?  Aod 
was  it  less  than  we  have  heard  of?  I  remem- 
ber  the  old  designation;  ad  uedum  uniu^-cujvM' 
que  nottr^m.  ft  was  marking  out  for  slaugb- 
tefy  for  immediate  death,  almost  evenrman 
who  took  a  part  adverse  to.  the  olyect  of  these 
petitioners,  as  they  were  callbd  ;  these  pet>- 
tioners,  wnooi^  in  the  most  innocent  iai»- 


637] 


for  High  Treatan, 


A.  D.  1781. 


L638 


guase,  the  noble  l(»ii  desires  to  be  finn^  to  be 
steady. 

I  have  heard  of  humble  petitioners,  I  have 
heard  of  modest  j^titionersy  I  have  heard 
of  reasonable  petitioners,  I  have  heard  of 
earnest  petitioners;  but  a  steady  and  a 
firm  petitioner  is  anew  creature,  one  that  I 
hope  I  shall  not  live  to  see  encoura§^  in  this 
country.  The  peti^ner  that  petitions  with 
firmness,  I  must  understand,  petitions  with  a 
determination  not  to  be  refused ;  and  then  he 
no  longer  petitions,  he  commands ;  his  exhor- 
tation IS  an  exhortation  to  men  who  do  not 
cope  to  ask,  but  who  are  resolved  to  talce. 
No  fair  exposition  of  language  will  warrant 
any  other  conclusion ;  yet  these  are  most  in- 
nocent in  the  words  of  the  prisoner. 

After  all  this,  what  is  the  conduct  of  the 
noble  lord  ?  Upon  so  much  mischief  being 
done  to  chapeu,  to  private  houses,  bbfore 
Tuesday,  do  you  bear  of  his  going  about  to  the 
incendianes,  to  those  miscreants  who  were 
setting  this  town  on  fire,  in  order  to  intreat 
them  to  desist  ?  What  is  his  behaviour  upon 
that  Tuesday  ?  In  my  opinion,  the  most  im- 
portant instance  in  the  whole  of  his  conduct, 
nardly  excepting  that  which  passed  between 
hln  and  lord  Stormont :  he  comes  down  to  the 
House,  attended  by  the  same  mob,  with  blue 
cockades,  and  colours  fl^ng;  and  what  en- 
si^  does  he  bring  with  him  ?  That  same  cock- 
wSe.  For  what  purpose  ?  had  he  then  done  ? 
had  he  desbted?  had  he  changed  his  mind? 
did  he  repent  of  the  mischiefs  ?  did  he  wish 
the  tumults  should  cease  ?  did  he  wish  to  dis- 
courage them  ?  What !  he,  who  in  the  face  of 
Uie  world,  comes  into  parliament,  with  that 
same  badge  in  his  hat^  who  told  the  multi- 
tude,  in  terms  as  plain  as  he  could  speak, 
**  Here  I  am,  purstung  the  same  cause,  with 
the  same  wishes  and  iSfections  for  you  that  I 
bad  before;  the  same  man,  perfectly  un- 
changed; I  am  so  within,  and  I  bear  my 
mark,  my  ensign  without.'' — Can  any  man 
hesitate  to  say,  that  this  conduct  of  his,  upon 
the  Tuesday,  after  ^1  this  mischief  was  done, 
noessarily  connects  him  wi^  the  whole? 
when  ,1  consider  of  this  circumst^ce,  and 
c(msider  that  we  hear  of  him  at  no  fire,  though 
every  man  knew  the  mischief;  when  I  hear 
not  of  any  attempt  to  stop  its  course,  and  see 
him  again/  bring  the  colours  of  sedition  upon 


very  extremity  of  the  City.    All  this  passes 
upon  the  Tuesday;  and  a  part  of  that  very 
mob,  bearing  the  same  colours  with  himseh^ 
shewing  their  firmness  and  attachment  to 
him,  go  seme  of  them,  first  to  Mr.  Hyde's, 
afWrwards  to  Newg&te,  and  commit  the  de- 
vastation with  which  you  are  well  acquainted. 
To  suppose  a  want  of  connection  here,  is  to 
shut  one's  eyes  against  the  clearest  light;  but 
upon  the  Wedne.5lay  what  follows  f  lie  tells 
tiie  secretary  of  state,  <*  that  he  could  be  of 
great  service  in  putting  a  stop  to  those  riots'' 
— Good  God !  gentlemen,  after  all  this,  what 
are  the  topics  of  defence !  Why,  it  is  said  by 
my  firiend,  and  that  seems  to  be  the  main  ar* 
gument,  tiiat,  in  truth,  all  this  mischief  was 
not  done  by  any  of  the  Protestant  Association, 
was  not  done  by  any  man  connected  with  lord 
George  Gordon ;  that  he  had  nothing;  to  do 
with  them ;  that  is  gravely  urged,  atra  urged 
with  propriety,  because,  to  be  sure,  it  will  be 
a  very  essential  point  in  the  cause;  and  if 
you  could  believe  that  afler  what  passed  at 
the  House  of  Commons,  that  those  who  de* 
stroyed  the  Romish  chapels,  and  went  on 
with  other   mischief,  were  an  unconnected 
mob,  undoubtedly  you  would  then  have  a 
very  different  case  to  decide  upon,  from  what 
vou  have  at  present ;  because  then  you  would 
nave  to  judge  upon  the  efiect  of  the  noble 
lord's  conduct,  and  what  passed  at  the  House 
of  Commons  only.   But  can  this  be  ?  is  there 
a  man.  who  has  a  head  upon  his  shoulders, 
can  believe  it?  W^hat  was  the  case  ?  A  pro- 
digious  mob,  with  blue  cockades,  came  down 
to  the  House,  beset  it,  filled  up  its  avenues, 
and  the  lobby,  and  were  tumultuous  and  noU 
ous  to  the  last  degree,  particularly  upon  the 
bishop  of  Lincoln;  the  attack  UDon  IVIr.  Wei- 
bore  Ellis  was  not  proved,  so  I  aon't  mention 
it ;  and  they  are  then,  in  plain  terms,  exhorted 
by  the   noble  lord  to  do  what  was  done  in 
Scotland,  in  efiect;  that  is,  they  ought  to  be 
as  well  off  as  then:  brethren  in  Scotland ;  that 
their  brethren  in  Scotland  had  redress  when 
they  burnt  the  mass-houses.    Immediately 
afier  this,  that  exhortation  is  complied  with; 
these  mass  houses  are  pulled  doMm. 

Now  here,  if  I  am  asked  whether  I  believe 
that  ail  the  Protestant  Association  did  this, 
or  concurred  in  it,  I  own  I  do  not  beheve  it. 
I  should  be  very  unwilling  to.  brand  40,000, 


his  hat ;   I  cannot  possibly  but  conclude,  that  |  20,000,  or  10,000  of  these  men,  with  that 


he  then  was,  and  meant  to  shew  himself,  the 
same  man  that  he  was  upon  the  Friday;  the 
partaker,  the  encourager,  the  friend  to  these 
outrages. 

This,  eentlemen,  happened  upon  the  Tues- 
day;  ana  the  same  mob.  imderstanding  the 
noble  lord  extremely  well,  as  he  shewed  him- 
self in  appearance  the  same  friend  to  them, 
expressed  the  like  affection  for  nim ;  for  they 
suffer  him  not  to  slink  away  from  ihe  House 
in  an  unimportant  private  wav^  no,  multi- 
tudes attend  him  with  huzzas ;  nis  horses  are 
taken  from  his  carriage;  and  he,  their  leader 
and  their  governor,  is  led  with  triumph  to  the 


mischief;  but  that  members  of  the  Protestant 
Association  did  it,  there  can  be  no  doubt, 
k  You  have  heard  vsuious  arguments  made  use 
of,  and, some  evidence,  to  beget  a  doubt  of 
this.  Whom  did  the  noble  lord  address  in 
the  bbby?  Certainly  members  of  the  Poo- 
testant  Association,  whom  he  understood  to 
be  so; .  he  talks  to  them  as  his  friends ; — they 
had  blue  cockades. 

In  order  to  introduce  a  different  idea,  sir 
Philip  Jennines  Gierke  saki,  ^  .they  did  not 
look  so  well  dressed  as  the  greatest  part  of 
those  he  had  seen  in  the  street."  Crentlemeo,- 
they  had  been  long  crowded  in  this  lobby. 


21  GEORGE  IIL      Proceedings  against  Lord  George  Gordon,      [640 

fonnly  one  general  desi^  to  force  a  repeal  of 
this  Bill,  and  that  their  resentment  was  di- 
rected uniformly  against  those  perspns  who 
are  what  they  call  in  friendship  with  Papists, 
and  what  I  call  friendship  to  Toleration. 
They  knew,  the  nohle  person  to  whom  that 
circumstance  alludes,  has  always  distinguished 
himself,  as  the  most  effectual  mend  this  coun- 
try ever  knew,  to  the  most  universal  and  li- 
beral toleration;  and  when  men  were  once 
embarked  with  a  design  to  produce  persecu- 
tion to  one  sect  of  religionists,  and  indeed 
with  a  design  to  subvert  order,  government, 
and  law,  there  was  no  one  man  .in  the  king- 
dom to  whom  their  resentment  would  be  more 
naturally  pointed.  I  therefore  consider  that 
disCTacefui  mischief  as  one  part  of  the  same 
uniform  outrage,  begun,  continued,  and  con- 
ducted to  one  and  the  same  wicked  and  exe- 
crable end :  and  if  this  has  been  their  con- 
duct, can  any  man  doubt,  that  all  has  been 
done,  from  the  beginning  to  the  end,  by  those 
who  have  borne  the  same  ensign,  who  have 
joined  in  the  same  ciy  ? 

Indeed,  to  suppose  that  when  the  mob  be- 
set the  House  of^  Commons,  when  they  en- 
gaged in  the  tumult  here,  ciying  out.  No  Po- 
pery !  Repeal !  Repeal !  tha.t  another  mob, 
distinct  from  them,  unconnected  with  them, 
would  go  to  the  Romish  chapels,  and  destroy 
them,  for  no  other  purpose  upon  earth  but 
that  very  purpose  for  which  they  had  been 
practising  their  tumults  here,  tKat  is  too  ab- 
surd to  be  supposed ;  for  no  man  can  believe 
it.  Besides  that,  what  is  the  effect?  what 
can  be  the  construction  of  the  noble  lord's 
language  to  lord  Stormont  ?  '<  That  he  could 
be  of  essential  service  in  suppressnig  the 
riots.''  How  could  he  be  of  essential  service 
in  suppressing  the  riots?  of  whom?  of  a  mi- 
serable banditti  unconnected  with  the  Pro- 
testant Association ;  unknown  to  lord  Geoi^ 
Gordon ;  with  whom  he  had  never  associated; 
with  whom  he  had  nothing  to  do;  who  owed 
nothing  to  his  exhortations ;  who  never  acted 
under  his  influence :  and  yet  this  is  the  ar^ 
ment  upon  which  the  innocence  of  the  noDle 
prisoner  must  rest,  if  it  can  be  supported; 
that  all  the  mischief  was  done  by  a  distinct 
mob,  with  which  those  men  who  came  to  the 
House  of  Commons  with  this  petition  had 
nothing  to  do. 

Whoever  seriously  considers  the  applica- 
tion, given  an  account  of  bv  lord  Stormont 
cannot  but  see,  that  the  noole  lord  assumed 
to  himself  and  I  am  afiraid  too  truly,  the  cha- 
racter of  their  leader  and  commander;  and  in 
that  character  he  would  be  able  to  do  very 
essential  service  to  his  country  in  suppressing 
the  riots.  His  learned  counsel  teUs^ou  of 
one  instance,  a  very  slender  interposition  in- 
deed, that  was  not  of  his  own  motion,  but  at 
the  request  of  Pond,  who  comes  to  him,  de- 
sires a  protection  from  him,  and  thus  obtwns 
it ;  and  this  is  mentioned  by  the  learned  gen- 
tleman whom  you  last  heard,  as  a  prodigious 
exertioD,  and  much  to  the  honour  oi  the  oobl* 


639] 

heated  and  fatijnied,  and  would  paturajly 
sume  a  very  dSferent  appearance;  but  they 
are  addressed  as  such  oy  the  noble  lord: 
*'  We  are  told  to  clear  the  lobby :  we  will 
immediately  clear  it  if  you  desire  it."  They 
offer  to  obey  his  dictates :  **  You  may  do  as 
you  please ;  but  you  cannot  have  your  peti- 
tion, if  the  matter  is  put  off  till  Tuesday." 
He  addresses  them,  as  men  who  had  signed 
the  petition,  who  concurred  with  him  in  the 
same  views. 

Again,  what  was  the  object  of  those  who 
destroyed  the  Romish  chapels?  Has  it  been 
suggested  in  all  yon  have  heard  to  day  ?  Have 
eit^r  of  the  learned  counsel  suggested  to 
you  a  possible  motive,  that  inducra^the  mis- 
creants who  committed  that  destruction  upon 
the  .Romish  chapels,  unless  it  was  for  a  repeal 
of  this  law  ?  No  man  has  even  conjectured  at 
a  motive.  Then  how  are  they  distinguished  ? 
By  the  same  blue  cockades,  by  the  same  cry 
o^  "  No  Popery !  Down  with  the  Papists!" 
and  the  like  expressions.  They  hold  the  same 
language  that  they  did  at  the  House;  they 
have  the  same  cockades,  are  acting  upon  the 
same  motives,  or  none  which  one  can  con- 
jecture ;  aud  you  will  remark,  that  this  mis- 
chief does  not  be»n  till  after  the  military 
force  have  removed  the  mob  from  the  House 
of  Commons;  and  then,  in  something  more 
than  an  hour  after  they  had  been  removed 
from  the  House  of  Commons,  the  mischief 
begins  there.  Good  God!  can  there  be 
more  demonstrative  evidence  ?  or  could  it  be 
stronger  proof  to  you,  if  they  had  actually 
been  soldiers  in  a  regiment,  with  their  reguhur 
clothes  on,  and  had  in  tne  tame  garb  pro- 
ceeded to  this  mischief? 

But  what  does  sir  Philip  Jennings  Clerke 
tell  you?  He  tells  you,  ''  tmit  upon  the  Tues- 
day, the  day  the  prisoner  came  down  with 
his  cockade,  he  applied  to  him  as  his  pro- 
tector." If  he  applied  to  lord  George  as  his 
protector,  was  it  against  another  mob  ?  or 
was  it  against  the  same  mob,  still  with  the 
same  cty  of  No  Popery !  still  pursuing  the 
same  object  from  the  beginning  to  the  end? 
for  you  will  understand,  and  it  is  very  re- 
markable, that  down  to  the  time  of  the  de- 
^stniction  of  New^te,  it  is  extremely  clear 
that  no  other  object  had  been  pursued  but 
destruction.  Then;  is  not  the  least  proof, 
there'  is  n«t  the  least  reason  to  believe,  that 
any  other  object  had  been  pursued,  except 
destroying  the  Roman  Catholic  chapels,  the 
houses  of  Roman  Catholics,  and  of  those  who, 
either  as  witnesses  or  magistrates,  had  en- 
deavoured to  obstruct  them  in  the  design 
they  were  endeavouring  to  accomplish. 

Indeed,  the  learned  eentlemaA  who  spoke 
last  to  you,  mentioned  one  as  an  exception. 
The  presence  of  the  person  before  whom  I 
jpeak,  would  make  it  very  improper  and  in- 
decent in  me  to  enlarge  upon  that  particular 
circumstance,  in  this  cause ;  but  1  am  very 
fkr  from  thinking  that  that  is  aii  exception  to 
what  I  have  said*;  that  they  pursued  uni- 


^1] 


Jot  High  Treason. 


A.D.  1781. 


lord.  I  coOcdve  h  is  a  proof  of  the  power 
which  he  told  lord  Stormont  he  had,  and  if 
he  had  it,  he  could  have  it  only  hecause  he 
was  the  man  whose  influence  this  titmalUious 
assembly  was  guided  by,  whose  entreaties  and 
persuasions  they  were  likely  to  attend  to. 

Gentlemen,  I  have  almost  done  with  the 
observations  I  have  to  make ;  I  am  sorry  to 
-l>e  so  long ;  and  beg  your  pardon ;  hoping 
the  nature  of  the  case  will  be  my  excuse ; 
but  it  has  been  boldly  said  to  you,  that  the 
evidence  for  the  crown  has  been  given  by  the 
scum  of  the  earth,  itself  amounting  to  no- 
thing, and  has  been  met,  combatec^  totally 
defeated  and  overpowered,  by  the  evidence 
g^ven  for  the  prisoner. 

I  waited,  1  stretched  my  mind  with  my  ut- 
most exertion,  in  order  to  collect  from  the 
evidence  given  for  the  prisoner,  if  I  could, 
what  it  was  that  was  proved  on  his  behalf; 
and  if  I  was  now  asked  and  obliged  upon  oath 
to  aay  what  it  is  the  prisoner  has  proved  in 
Ids  defence,  I  protest  I  am  not  able  to  tell 
you.  I  do  not  detract  from  the  weight  of  it  a 
grain,  nor  would  1  have  you  in  compliroent  to 
my  observations  detract  a  grain  from  it,  if  you 
find  it  of  weight. 

Mr.  fiCiddleton  and  two  or  three  others — ^I 
win  not  call  them  the  scum  of  the  earth,  for 
that  efnthet  should  be  given  to  people  only 
who  are  low  aiAl  base,  as  well  as  in  a  humble 
state  of  life — ^there  are  two  or  three  speak  in 
general  terms  of  lord  Oeoree  Gordon  bong 
vety  desirous  to  have  all  &is  business  con- 
ducted in  a  peaceable  manner:  the  same 
Hung  is  observed  to  have  been  said  by  him  in 
St.  Georg^Vfields ;  and  in  .St.  Greorgc's-fields, 
whore  he  had  directed  what  number  should 
be  assembled,  and  said  he  would  not  go  with- 
out 9Ofi00 ;  had  directed  the  cockaSes,  the 
divisions,  and  so  on ;  that  he  all  at  once  al- 
tered hu  mind  upon  Friday,  and  would  not 
have  them  go  up  in  large  numbers,  but  only 
]Q  small  ones. 

What  does  this  amount  to/  I  will  suppose 
k  to  be  true ;  «but  let  me  make  one  remark 
imon  the  evidence  of  Mr.  Middleton  and  ano- 
ther man  (I  forget  his  name)  who  followed 
him  some  time  afler ;  in  which  they  tell  you, 
by  way  of  guarding  against  a  possibility  that 
the  idea  of  violence  should  ever  enter  into  the 
imagination  or  intention  of  any  of  these  p^r- 
aona^  or  of  lord  G.  Gordon  especially,  that  l|e 
desired  of  them,  that  if  one  cheek  was  smitten, 
the  other  should  be  turned;  in  short,  that 
tfae^  would  attend  to  the  peaceiid  doctrines 
dehvered  in  the  Gospel,  and  would  for  that 
time  becxxne  the  simplest  and  purest  Chris- 
tiaos. 

My  objection  to  this  evidence  is,  that  it  is 
a  great  deal  too  much ;  and  I  own  I  am  not 
scrupulous  in  saying,  that  I  have  very  great 
doubts  of  it :  it  is  not  the  sort  of  evidence 
that  is  atall  natural,  it  b  a  fact  in  itself  high- 
ly improbable,  and  it  must  be  proved  by  more 
and  better  witnesses  than  these,  before  I  can 
iMlieve  it. 

VOL.  XXL 


But  I  have  not  come  to  a  circumstance^ 
that,  unless- 1  very  much  mistake,  puts  an 
end  to  it  all.  In  St.  Georee's-fields  they  are 
desired  to  go  in  a  small  body,  only  30  or  40, 
with  the  Petition.  It  is  pretty  extraordinary, 
that  if  the  plan  of  the  noble  lord,  who  took 
the  management  of  that  meeting,'  was  to  be 
deserted,  that  he  did  not  apply  to  his  com<- 
mittee,  and  get  them  to  desire  the  multitude 
to  disperse,  and  he  woidd  himself  go  up  with 
the  Petition.  It  was  left  in  a  loose  way ;  he 
desired  30  or  40  would  go ;  and  away  goes 
the  noble  lord  to  the  House ;  and  they  were 
to  bring  it :  so  that  his  accompanying  them' 
never  was  understood  to  be  a  part  of  ther 
scheme :  but  if  the  noble  lord  reallv  held 
such  language  in  St.  GeorseVfields,  if  he  had 
been  averse  to  great  nmintudes,  and  to  riot- 
ous proceedings ;  how  came  it^  that  in  the 
space  of  a  few  hours,  ^hen  the  occasion  called 
for  his  peaceful  exertions — ^how  came  it,  that 
in  the  lobby,  with  the  legislatura  of  this  coun- 
try prostrate  at  their  feet,  he  should  totally 
forgist  what  he  had  said  before?  that  he 
shmild  not  ask  them  to  depart  ?  The  House 
is  besieged  and  blockaded^  cannot  act  for  riot 
and  disorder;  and  yet  the  prisoner,  who 
wishes  to  disperse  the  multitude,  to  end  the 
tumults,  does  not  say  one  iford  to  them  de- 
siring the;  would  disperse  I  He  had  tota^y 
changed  his  inclinations ;  therefore  you  must 
suppose^  for  you  cannot  do  otherwise,  that  he 
was  a  fhend  to  the  proceedings  that  were  go- 
ing on.  He  had  no  difficult  task  to  act ;  they 
were  willing  to  obey  his  orders,  they  would 
dear  the  lobby  if  he  desired  it.  Sir  Philip 
Jennings  Gierke  saw  the  men  then,  not  like 
as  they  were  at  the  bc^ning  of  the  day,  for 
they  were  pressed  and  fatigued  in  the  mob. 
Lord  George  addresses  that  mob,  and  tells 
them  ^<  he  can  give  them  no  advice.^ 

I  protest  I  should  have  thought  I  had  been 
extremely  culpable,  if  unknowing  and  un- 
known to  any  who  had  then  met  and  had 
asked  me  for  advice,  I  had  not  civen  it  to 
them.  No  reasonable  man  could  possibly 
doubt  ofthe  advice  to  be  given;  the  advice 
to  be  given  was,  '^Retire  to  your  houses; 
leave  the  parliament  to  consider  of  your  peti- 
tion ;  reason  and  not  force  ought  to  decide 
upon  the  merits  of  it.''  No  man  of  under* 
standiQ^  of  any  reflaction,  could  have  hesi- 
tated one  moment  to  give  that  advice ;  and 
yet  the  noble  k>rd,  wholuu  theiii  at  command 
and  at  will,  when  they  ask  bis  advice,  says, 
'<  he  w«il  give  them  ho  advice.'^  That  is  sir 
Philip  Jennings  Gierke's  account.  The  other 
witnesses  tell  you  he  said,  ^  You  may  do  as 
you  {>lease."  Then  is  it  not  clear,  from  all 
the  circumstances  of  the  case,  that  he  would 
have  endeavoured  fo  persuade  the  mob  to  dis- 
perse, unless  he  had  been  concerned  in  their 
proceedings } 

1  need  hot  go  over  again  what  followed  the 
cockade  on  Tuesday,  that  long  interval  with- 
out an  attfempt^  to  peace.  All  this  shews  a 
clear  contUiuuig  design  to  favour  what  was 

2  T 


1^  f\  G90E6]^  m.      Proeeedingg  agama  Lard  George  Gonbmt     |64| 


going  QX^.  "Otfaer  expressions  are'  used  -to 
$ew  yoU|  that  at  ditfereht  times,  even  in  the 
lobby,  thiis  noble  lord  advised  Uiem  to  be 
peaceable :  true,  he  did  so ;  but  it  was  to  be 
ouiet  and  peaceable,  and  steady :  if  they  are 
ip'be  temperate,  they  are  to  loe  firm :  that  is, 
i^  s(ioirt,  ^Commit  no  outrage  that  b  not 
necessary  to  your  purpose,  but  firmly  pursue 
1|iat  purpose ;  move  not ;  have  the  act  re- 
gealeo,  or  overturn  the  constitution :''  for  no 
other  meaning  can  be  given  to  this  firmness^ 
Ip  tins  attack  upon  the legblature. 
'  Gentlemen^  all  that  ws  been  said  b^  the 
noble  lord,  all  his  inflammatory  expressions, 
i^e  proved  to  have  be^  spokep  betpr^  num- 
qers  of  his  irien4s>  and  yet  not  one  of  them  is 
produced ;  not  one  of  that  Protestant  Asso- 
ciation who  heard  tlu^^  the  king  had  broken 
his  coronation  path;  that  the  king  was  in  the 
^te  of  having  abdica^  his  throne ;  not  one 
imm  attends  to  prove  that  no  such  words  were 
apoken.  Are  none  of  that  chosen  committee, 
are  none  of  the  friends  pf  the  Protestant  cause 
witnesses  to  hav^  said,  '<  I  was  present;  I 
heard  all  that  passed ;  no  such  words  ever 
fpH  horn  the  noble  lord  ?"  Wei^e  no  persons 
]M«sf  nt  in  the  tobby^  90  person  there  to  have 
said  that  these  allusions  asain  and  again  to 
Gotland  mentioned  by  Mr.  Bowen  did  not 
p^iss  ?  Not  one  man  is  proved  at  any  place,  or 
at  any  time,  to  contradict  that  which  is  sworn 
t(0  by  several  witnesses  on  the  part  of  the 
Iffosecution.  Tbi»y  as  it  appears  to  me,  car- 
ries with  it  ux)apsweral)le  copviction;  I  can- 
i)ot  possibly  myself  believe  but  that  unless 
expr^a^ipns  of  that  tendency  had  been  used 
l^  the  oo^le  lord^  it  must  bkve  been  contra- 
dict^ ^y  numlbers  of  wiftnesse3 ;  but  however 
■o  such  have  l^n  proc^jped  before  you. 

Vfkh  these  semarks^  gentlemen,  at  this  late 
hour,  I  must  now  jput  an  end  to  what  I  have, 
tp  uoubte  you  with.  Le|  n^e  repeat  again, 
private  and  personal  wishes  I  have  npne,  I 
^iok  and  hope  exactly  upo9  this  subject  as  I 
should  do  if  X  sat  t»  jtidicaUtf^  uppn  the  noble- 
jvrd.  if  the  crime  with  which  ne  is  chajq^ 
is' not  proved  minst  him>  it  is  your  duty  to 
i^quit  him,  aott  no  mu^  will,  murmui;  at  the 
acquittal :  but  if,  on  Uie  other  halMl,  the  crime 
if  made  out  a^nst  him;  if  this  mischief, 
from  the  bej;innine  to  the  end,  iw  practised 
by  me^jokung  in  the  same  ahomiiiable  cause, 
iQr  violence  aid  force  to,  compel  a  repeal  of 
^e.law ;  if  the  noble  lord  concurred  and  bore 
1^  part  in  thatdesign;  \i  hp  incited  it,  if  he 
opndvcted  it,  if  he  encouraged  it,  what  must 
his  the  consequence  ^  The.  constitution  of  this 
fouBlvy,.iior  the  constitution  of  any  countiy 
Qiu  stand,  if  outrages  like  these  are  suffeied 
^  pass^with  impunity. 

U  is  always  a  pamliil  te^k  to  pronounce 
4ie  sentence  of  ffmlt  uppn  any  man ;  but  no 
considerations  of  noble  birth,  no  other  mo- 
tives thai  work  nponf  the  piivate  feelings  iOid 
passions  of  men.  will  make  you  deaf  to  the 
call^  of  truth  and  justice.  If  you  should  find 
Sftuiselves  at  la^t  oblig^dy^obliged^  for  you 


will  not  do  it  unle^  you  are  obligsd  from  the 
strength  of  the  evidence  brought  in  support 
of  this  charge,  to  decide  that  the  noble  u>ni 
has  committed  the  crime  with  wUch  be  is 
charged,  every  man  will  be  sorr^  that  tb(| 
noble  lord  should  have  been  guiltv  of  it, 
every  man  will  lament  that  he  should  have 
exposed  himself  to  sy  unfortunate,  to  so  mi- 
serable a  fate :  but  ^et  no  such  consideration 
will  totally  extinguish  the  regard  we  ought 
to  have  to  the  constitution  of  this  counti;^, 
which  if  the  noble  lord  is  ffuilty  cannot  posst-. 
bly  stand,  unless  offenders  like  him  meeijt  with 
the  punishment  which  they  deserve. 

Lord  Mansfield : 

Gentlemen  of  the  Jury;  the  piismr 
at  the  bar  is  indicted  for  that  species  of  high 
treason  which  is  called  lev^ng  war  against 
the  kin£,  and  therefore  it  18  necessaiy  you 
should  first  be  informed  wbal  is  in  law  levy- 
ing war  against  the  king^  so  as  to  constituiq 
the  crime  of  high  trei^n,  within  the  statute 
of  £dward  ^  an4  perl^ps  according  totha 
legal  significatk)!^  ofthe  term  before  that  sta- 
tute. There  are  |wo  kinds  of  levying  war :--. 
one  against  the  person  of  the  king ;  ^  impri- 
son, to  dethrone,  or  to  kill  him;  or  to  n^ke 
him  change  m/easures,  or  remove  couo^ellop ; 
— the  other,  v^hi^h  is  said  to  be  levied  sgaiosl 
the  majesty  of  the  kingj.  or,  in  other  wq^ 
i^gainst  him  in  his  regal  capacity ;  as  i^n^o  a 
multitude  rise  and  assemble  to  attain  by  fives 
and  violence  aoy  object  of  a  general  publk' 
nature :  that  is  levying  war  a^a^jost  tlv^  ma^ 
iestyof  ^e  kmg;  and  ii^pst  reasonably  «a 
hddy  because  it  tends  to  dissolve  idl  the  bopds 
of  society,  to  desjUoy  property,  a,nd  to  ovQp 
turn  government;  and  by  force  of  ann^  to 
restrain  the  kmg  frpm  reigning  accordingto 
laiY. 

Insurrectiona,  by  force  and  violence,  to 
raise  the  price  of  wa^,  to  open  all  prisons,  to 
destroy  meeting-houses,  nay,  to  destroy  aii 
brothels^  to  resisX  the  execution  of  miiitis 
laws,  to  throw  down  all  inclosurea^  to  alter 
the  established  Law,  or  change  religion,  to  re- 
dress grievances  real,  or  pretended,  have  all 
been  held  levy  iiu;  war.  Many  other  instaocci 
mieht  he  put  Lord  chief  justice  Holt,  io  sir 
Jomi  Fri^kfs  caae,  says  <<  if  persons  do  as- 
semble theiftselves  and  act  with  force  in  op^ 
position  to  some  law  which  they  think  inooo- 
venient,  and  hope  thereby  to  get  it  repealed, 
this  is  a  levying  war  sfxd  treason.''  in  tbe 
pvesent  case,  it  don't  rest  upon  an  impiicatioa 
that  they  hoped  by  opposition  to  a  law  to  get 
it  r«q[iwed»  but  the  prosecution  proceeds  upon 
the  direct  ground,  that  the  obiect  wa^  kf 
force  and  violence,  to  compel  the  leg;islature 
to  repeala  law;  and  theremre;,  without  any; 
doub^  I  tell  you  the  joint  opinion  of  ut 
all,  that,  if  this  multitude  assembled  with  lo^ 
tent,  b^  acts  of  force  and  violence,  to  cooopv 
the  legislature  to  repeal  a  law,  it  is  high 
treason. 

Though  the  form  of  an  iadictment  for  tbi& 


645] 


M 


Trtoiotu 


fqieciQ*^  treason  mentions  drums,  trunpets, 
aimsy  swords^  fifes,  and  guns,  yet  none  of 
thede  cbrcumstances  are  essential.  The  ques- 
tion  always  is,  whether  the  intent  is,  by  force 
mnd  violence,  to  attain  an  object  of  a  general 
and  public  nature,  by  any  instruments,  or  by 
dint  of  their  numbers.  ^  Whoever  incites,,  aa- 
viaes,  encourages,  or  is  anv  wa^  aiding  to 
such  a  muititiKle  so  assembled  with  such  in-^ 
tent,  though  he  does  not  personally  appear 
aoKmg  them,  or  with  his  own  hands  commit 
any  violence  whatsoever,  yet  he  is  equally  a 
principal  with  those  who  act,  and  guilty  of 
nigh  treason. 

Having  premised  these  propositions  as  the 
ground  work  of  your  deliberation  upon  the 
points  which  will  be  left  to  you,  it  will  not  be 
amiss  to  lay  a  matter  which  you  have  heard  a 
great  deal  upon  at  the  bar  totally  out  of  the 
case.  Whether  the  biU,  called  sir  George 
Savile's,  was  wise  or  expedient— whether  the 
repeal  of  it  would  have  Been  rig[ht  or  wrong — 
has  nothinff  to  do  with  this  trial.    Whether 

gievances  be  real  or  j)retended— whether  a 
w  be  good  or  bad— it  is  equally  high  treason, 
by  the  strong  hand  of  a  multitude,  to  force 
the  repeal  or  redress. 

Thus  much  let  me  say,  it  is  most  injurious 
to  say  this  bill,  called  sir  George  Savile's,  is  a 
toleration  of  Popery.  I  cannot  deny  that, 
where  the  wfety  of  the  state  is  n^  concerned, 
my  own  opinion  is,  that  men  should  not  be 
yimished  lor  mere  matter  of  conscience,  and 
narely  worshipping  God  in  their  own  way : 
hut  where  what  is  alleged  as  matter  of  con- 
science is  daneerous  or  pr^udicid  to  the 
state,  which  is  me  case  of  Popery,  the  safety 
of  the  state  is  the  supreme  law,  and  an  erro- 
neoua  rdig^on,  ^  to  as  upon  principles  of 
■ound  policy  that  safety  requires,  ought  to  be 
testradnMBd  uid  prohibited;  no  eood  man  has 
erier  defended  the  many  penai  laws  agamst 
Papists  upon  anfbdier  ground :  hut  Uiis  bill  is 
not  a  toleration,  it  only  takes  away  the  penal- 
ties of  onte  act  out  of  many. 

llievare  still  suhjectto  all  the  penalties 
crealea  in  the  reign  of  queen  Elizabeth :  and 
ytet  yoo  know  queen  Euzahcth  succeeded  to 
^e  txctkck  soon  after  a  cniel  tyrant  of  the 
Popish  idipon.  The  Refonnation  wasesta- 
hmlied  in  her  reign.  8be  was  excomnmnl- 
caled  by  the  Pope^  and  her  dominions  given 
alm^.  Her  next  heir  was  a  bigotted  Papist 
0be  was  expooM  to  mady  ntots  of  aisassina- 
tionri  thMfore  sound  pouey,  and  even  the 
gytaWaflon  of  her  life^  during  her  reign,  caU- 
w  ftr  ihany  penal  kws  ag^nst  Papists. 

This  act  repeals  no  penalty  enacted  in  .the 
^dgb  of  long  James  the  fiirs^;  yet  in  that 
Kign  the  provocations  g^ven  by  Papists  were 
great.  It  began  with  the  Gunpowder  Plot ; 
t|nd  no  wonder  severe  laws  were  made  against 
them. 

This  act  repeals  no  law  made  in  the  reign 
<if  kiw  Charles  the  second;  and  yet  you 
know  tne  tsM^  of  a  Popish  succesi(dr ;  and 

itejiMloaiyoftlie'ciHiitairihal  t!tte,.oeta- 


».D.  1761.  [64^ 

Bkmed  many  penal  laws  to  be  made  a^inft 
Papists.    '  " 

In  the  reign  of  William  the  third,  the  secu- 
rity of  the  new  government  made  penal  lawa 
against  Papists  necessary;  yet  tnis  bill  re- 
peals none  made  during  the  first  ten  years  of 
his  reign;  it  only  repeals  some  additional  pe^ 
nalties  introduced  b^  an  act  that  passed  at 
the  end  of  his  reign,  which  is  notoriously 
known  not  to  have  been  countenanced  of 
promoted  by  him.  Therefore,  be  the  merits 
of  the  bill,  called  sir  George  Savile's,  as  h 
may,  it  is  totally  a  misrepresentation  to  infer 
firom  thence  that  Papists  are  tolerated.  It  is 
a  cry  to  raise  thelilind  spirit  of  fanaticism,  or 
enthusiasm,  in  the  minus  of  a  deluded  multi- 
tude, which,  in  the  histor^r  of  the  worid,  has 
been  the  cause  of  much  ruin  and  national  de- 
struction. But  I  have  already  told  you  tU 
merits  of  this  law  are  totally  immaterial  upon 
this  trial;  and  notlung  can  be  so  dishonoura- 
ble to  government,  as  to  be  forced  to  make, 
or  to  repeal,  by  an  armed  multitude,  anv  law; 
firom  tmtt  moment  there  is  an  end  of  all  leg^^ 
lative  authority. 

There  is  another  matter  I  must  mention  tQ 
you,  before  I  come  to  state  the  questions  upon 
which  you  are  to  form  a  jodgment,  and  sum 
up  the  evidence,  from  which  that  judgment 
is  to  be  a  conclusion,  ^ 

A  doubt  has  faintly  been  thrown  out  from  the 
bar,  whether  it  is  lawful  to  attend  a  petitioik 
to  the  House  of  Commons  with  more. than 
ten  persons  \  Upon  dear  bought  experience  of 
the  consequences  jof  tumultuous  assemblies 
imder  pretence  ot  carrying  and  supporting 
petitions,  an  act  of  parliament  passed  in  the 
reign  of  king  Charles  the  second,  forbidding^ 
under  a  penalty,  more  than  ten  persons  to  atp 
tend  a  petition  te  the  king,  or  either  House 
of  Parliament:  but  it  is  said,  that  law  is  re^ 
pealed  by  the  Bill  of  Rights.  I  speak  the 
joint  opinion  of  us  all,  that  the  act  of  Charles 
the  second  is  in  fiill  force ;  there  is  not  the 
colour  for  a  doubt :  the  Bill  of  Rights  does 
not  mean  te  meddle  with  it  at  all :  it  asserts 
the  right  pf  the  sul^ect  to  petition  the  kin^ 
and  that  there  ought  to  be  no  commitments 
for  such  petitioning ;  which  alluded  to  the 
case  of  the  bishops  in  king  James's  reigi^,  wh^ 
petitioned  the  kmg,  and  wero  committed  for 
it — But  neither  the  Bill  of  Rights,  nor  any 
other  statut^  rttieals  this  act  of  Charles  th^ 
second :  and  Mr.  Justice  Blackstone,  in  his 
Commentaries,*  treats  of  this  apt  as  in  fiiU 
force;  and,  as  I  have  told  you,  we  are  all  of 
that  opinion ;  and  consequentiy  the  attending 
a  petition  to  the  House  oT  Commons  by  more 
than  ten  persons  is  criminal  and  illegal.-^ 
Having  premised  these  several  propositions 
and  prindples,  the  subject  matter  for  your 
consideration  naturally  resolves  itself  into 
two  points. 

First,  Whether  this  multitude  did  assemble 

*  filackilone*!  Coiainmitaridii  vol.  1*  p.  143 ; 
vuL  4^  p.  147, 


647] 


21  GEORGE  III.      Proeeedingi  againd  XA^i  George  Gordon,     [648 


and  commit  acts  of  violence  with  intent  to 
terrify  and  compel  the  legislature  to  repeal 
the  act  called  sir  George  Savile's  ? — If  upon 
this  point  your  opinion  Siould  be  in  the  nega- 
tive, that  makes  an  end  of  the  whole,  and 
the  prisoner  ought  to  be  acquitted:  but  if 
jour  opinion  should  be^  that  the  intent  of 
this  multitude,  and  the  violence  they  commit- 
ted, was  to  force  a  repeal,  there  anses  a  se- 
cond point — 

Whether  the  prisoner  at  the  bar  incited, 
encouraged,  promoted,  or  assisted  in  raisins 
this  insurrection,  and  the  terror  they  carried 
with  them,  with  the  intent  of  forcing  a  repeal 
of  this  law? 

Upon  these  two  points,  which  you  will  call 
yoar  attention  to,  depends  the  fate  of  this 
trial ;  for  if  either  the  multitude  had  no  such 
Mitent,  or  supposing  they  had,  if  the  prisoner 
was  no  cause,  did  not  excite,  and  took  no 
part  in  conducting,  counselling,  or  fomenting 
the  insurrection,  the  prisoner  ought  to  be  ac- 
quitted; and  there  is  no  pretence  that  he 
personally  concurred  in  any  act  of  violence. 

[His  lordship  now  summed  up  the  evidence 
verbatim  to  the  iuxy :  in  the  course  of  which 
he  told  themi  tnat  he  d)served  that  most  of 
them  had  taken  very  ftill  notes — ^that  he  pur- 
)>osely  avoided  making  any  observations  upon 
the  evidence,  choosing  to  leave  it  to  them- 
selves ;  then  conclude  as  follows;] 

This,  gentlemen,  is  the  whole  of  the  evi- 
dence on  either  side :  you  will  weigh  this  evi- 
dence, and  all  the  observations  made  at  the 
bar,  or  which  occur  to  YOurselveS|  upon  it— I 
avoid  making  any.  llie  points'  for  vou  to 
determine  are — ^Whether  tnis  multitude  were 
assembled  and  acted  with  an  intent  to  force 
a  repeal  of  this  called  sir  George  Savile's  act, 
and  if  you  think  such  was  their  intent,  whe- 
ther the  share  the  prisoner  had  in  getting  to- 
gether such  a  number  of  people  to  ^  down 
to  the  House  of  Commons — in  meetmg  them 
in  St.  GeorgeVficlds— in  talkine  to  tnem  in 
the  lobby — ^m  wearing  the  cocka£  on  Friday 
«tnd  Saturday — or  in  any  other  part  of  his 
conduct — had  the  same  intent  by  the  terror 
of  an  outrageous  multitude,  and  the  violences 
thev  committed  and  threatened,  to  force  a  re- 
peal of  this  act.  If  there  was  no  such  inten^ 
tion  either  in  the  mob  or  the  prisoner,  he 
ought  to  l>e  acquitted :  but  if  you  think  there 
was  such  an  intent  in  the  midtttude,  incited, 
promoted,  or  encouraged  by  the  prisoner, 
then  you  ought  to  find  him  guilty.  If  the 
€cale  should  hang  doubtful,  and  you  are  not 
fully  satisfied  that  he  is  niilty,  you  ou^ht  to 
Jean  on  the  fiivourable  side  and  acquit  him. 

The  Court  sat  at  dght  o'clock  on  the 
Monday  morning;  and  at  three  quarters  after 
four  on  the  Tuesday  morning  the  Jury  with^ 
drew.  They  returned  into  court  at  a  quarter 
pS^  five  o'clock,  with  a  verdict  finding  the 
ffmasi  Sfot  GuUty. 


The  following  Report  of  tiiis  Case  is  taken 
from  Dougl.  Rep.  B.R.  569.  [edit.  1783.] 

''  The  King  against  Lord  GEoaos  Gobdov. 

**  An  indictment  for  high  treason  having 
been  found  against  lord  George  Gordon,  the 
Attorney  General  moved,  in  Uie  last  term, 
(on  Saturday  the  11th  of  November,)  for  a 
rule  upon  tlie  sherifTof  Middlesex,  to  deliver 
to  the  prosecutor  a  list  of  the  jurymen  he  in- 
tended to  return  on  the  panel,  m  order  that 
the  prosecutor  might  be  enabled  to  deliver 
such  list  to  the  prisoner,  according  to  the 
provision  of  the  statute  of  queen  Anne,  [T 
Anne  cap.  SI.  §  11 J  at  the  same  time  with 
the  copy  of  the  indictment.  He  asdd,  this 
seemed  the  only  method  of  complying  with 
the  meaning  of  the  statute,  llie  words  are, 
that  a  list  of  the  witnesses  that  shall  be  pro- 
duced on  the  trial,  for  proving  the  indictment, 
and  of  the  hiry,  mentioning  the  names,  &c. 
be  delivered  to  the  party  indicted,  ten  days 
before  the  trial.  This,  he  said,  had  been  con- 
strued to  mean,  before  the  arraignment,*  and, 
as  there  is  no  issue  till  arraignment,  there  can 
be  no  jury,  strictly  speaking^,  because  no  jiny 
process  can  be  awarded  till  issue  joined. 

**  The  rule  was  granted.f 

''  Lord  George  was  this  day  tried  at  bar. 
The  indictment  was  for  levying  war  aiamst 
the  king.    The  manner  in  which  the  triu  pio- 

•  "  By  tho  tUtute  of  7  Will.  3.  oap.  $,  of  wUeb 
fhtt  of  7  Ano.  i<  but  tn  extension,  a  oopj  of  (he  iB> 
dictment  was  to  be  given,  fire  days  at  least,  befeie 
the  prieonera  diooM  be  tried,  in  order  to  eaabfe 
tlMn  to  advise  with  oonniel  thereopon  to  pleMl  lad 
make  tlieir  delenoe.  TVa  Bint  have  bmibI  fife  isf% 
before  afnignniflnl,  beoanse  the  prisoaer  pleids  '  in- 
atanler'  upon  the  arraigaaieiit. 

t "  This  provisiottin  the  itaUite  of  queen  Aane,  vis 
not  to  take  effect  till  after  the  death  of  the  laie  IVs- 
tender ;  and  this  was  the  first  instance  in  wUoh  * 
person  indicted  for  high  tieniion  had  been  entitled  to 
the  benefil  of  itl  Hie  role  ww  drawn  up  in  the  fcl- 
lowing  words : 

\'  Middiaa. 

**  The  Kino  agaSnat  Gsoaoa  GoEDOWf  esq* 
monly  oaUed  Lord  Gsoaox  Gtobdov. 


«<  It  is  ordered  that  the  sheriff  of  Middksss  dt 
forthwith  deliTcr to  Miw  Ghamberlajne,  thesoGeilar 
for  the  prosecutor,  a  list  of  the  jury  to  be  rotonsd 
by  him,  for  the  trial  of  the  prisoner,  BMBlionin|ths 
Banes,  iMrofesiiotts,  and  plaoas  of  abode,  «f  *ch 
jurors,  in  order  that  such  list  may  be  deiiv«ed  t» 
Jht  prisoner,  at  the  same  time  that  the  cop;  of  ik» 
indictment  is  delivered  to  him.  Ontbemo(ioB« 
Mr.  Attomej  General— Bj  the  Court* 

"  luunediatel  J  after  this  rule  was  pronounced,  Bt^ 
skine  moTed,  that  the  prisoner  mignt  hare  ooeain 
amigned  him,  that  Kenyon  and  himself  shoald  be  ss- 
signed,  and  that  they  might  haTc  fireeaccem  to  him  i* 
aUreasonaUe  hours,  aooording  to  the  prorisioes  «f 
7  Will.  3,  c.  S,  i  1.  Butler,  JosUoe,  doubted  wie- 
ther  thibapplieatioB  ought  not  to  be  mdb  bj  iw 
prisoner  Uanelf,  at  the  bar,  the  words  of  the  sbUH 
being,  '•  Upon  hU  or  their  raquesU,^  butJhsAt* 
tomej  Geatnd  oofimutiH*  U»»Qlil«w»i  •*•.■•'' 


64S] 


fiyr  High  Treason. 


A,  D.  nai. 


[650 


ceedad  was  this.  Norton  opened  the  indkt- 
ment.  The  Attorney  General  then  stated  the 
case,  and  produced  the  evidence  for  the 
crown;  the  witnesses  being  examined  in  their 
psnOf  by  the  different  counsel  concerned  for 
the  prosecution,  viz.  the  Attorney  General, 
the  Solicitor  General  (Mansfield),  Bearcroft, 
JLee,  Howorth,  Dunning,  and  Norton.  Ken- 
yon  then  opened  the  case  on  the  part  of  the 
prisoner;  after  which,  Erskine,  his  other 
counsel,  told  the  court,  he  meant  to  reserve 
his  address  to  the  jury,  till  after  the  evidence 
for  the  prisoner  had  been  gone  through :  he 
sud  there  was  a  precedent  for  this,  in  the 
State  Trials.  FQu.]  Lord  Mansfield,  upon 
this,  told  him,  that,  as  far  as  he  was  concern- 
ed, he  should  be  glad  to  hear  hun  at  aiw  stage 
when  it  was  most  desirable  to  himself;  and 
the  Attorney  General  declared,  that  no  ob- 
jection would  be  made  on  the  part  of  the  pro- 
secution. The  evidence  was  then  produced; 
and  Erskine  having  observed  upon  it,  the  So- 
licitor General  replied. 

*^  The  case,  on  the  part  of  the  prosecution, 
was ;  that  the  prisoner,  by  assembling  a  great 
multitude  of  people,  and  encouraeing  them  to 
surround  the  two  Houses  of  Parttament,  and 
commit  different  acts  of  violence,  particularly 
huming  the  Roman  Catholic  chapels,  had  en- 
deavoured to  compel  the  repeal  of  an  act  of 
parliament.    [Viz.  18  Geo.  3,  cap.  60.] 

"  Lord  Mansfield,  when  he  be^m  to  sum  up 
the  evidence,  stated  to  the  iury,  that  it  was 
the  unanimous  opinion  of  tne  court,  that  an 
attempt,  by  intimidation  and  violence,  to 
force  the  repeal  of  a  law,  was  a  levying  war 
against  the  king ;  and  high  treason.  He  re- 
quested that  he  mijght  be  corrected,  if  his 
Botes  should  be  deficient  in  any  part,  by  those 
of  the  other  judges,  and  of  the  jury;  and  he 
concluded  by  telBng  the  juir,  thust,  if  the  scale 
should  hanjg  doubtful,  and  they  were  not  iidly 
satisfied  ofthe  prisoner's  guilt,  they  ou^ht  to 
lean  to  the  &vourable  side,  and  acquit  hun. 

^  The  trial  lasted  from  eight  in  the  morning, 
till  a  quarter  after  five  of  the  morning  follow- 
ing. The  iury  withdrew  for  some  time,  and 
thaD  brought  m  a  verdict  of  acqinttal.  Lord 
Mansfield,  and  the  other  iud^s,  continued  on 
the  bench  the  whole  of  ^e  tune,  till  the  jury 
retired. 

''Some  points  of  law.'  and  of  evidence, 
arose,  in  the  course  ofthe  trial. 

''  1.  It  was  o(Mitended,^hy  the  counsel  for 
the  prisoner,  that  the  statute  of  13  Car.  9,  stat. 
1.  cap.  5. — (By  which  it  is  enacted,  that  not 
more  than  twenty  names  shall  be  ngned  to 
any  petition,  &c.  to  the  king,  or  either  house 
of  parliament,  for  any  alteration  of  matters  es- 
tablished by  law,  in  church  or  state,  unless 
the  contents  thereof  be  previously  approved 
of,  in  the  manner  therein  mentioned;  and 
tlat  no  person  or  persons  shdl  repaid  to  his 
MMsty,  or  both,  or  either  of  the  Houses  of 
Pantament,  upon  pretence  of  delivering  any 
i>etiition,  &c.  accompanied  with  excessive  num^ 
ler  of  people,  nor;  at  any  one  time,  with 


above  the  number  of  ten  perBOOs,  on  pain  of 
incurring  a  penalty  not  exceeding  100/.  and 
three  months*  imprisonment.)  |^§  4.1  was  vir- 
tually repealed  by  that  article  in  tne  Bill  of 
Rights  wliich  declares,  ^  That  it  is  the  right 
of  the  subjects  to  petition  the  king,  and  that 
all  commitments  and  prosecutions  &t  such  pe- 
titioning are  ille^.*'  [1  W.  and  M.  sess.  3. 
cap.  S.  1 1.  art  5A  But  lord  Mansfield,  in 
his  directions  to  the  jury,  said,  he  had  never 
before  heard  it  supposed  that  the  act  of  Car. 
9.  was  repealed ;  and  that  it  was  the  joint  and 
clear  opinion  of  tlie  whole  court,  that  the  BUI 
of  Rights  did  not  mean  to  meddle  with  it  at 
all ;  that  neither  tliat,  nor  any  other  act  of 
paiiiament,  had  repealed  it; '  and  that  it  was 
m  fiill  force. 

'<  9.  Some  of  the  witnesses  for  the  crown 
had  given  in  evidence,  that  lord  Greorge,  in  ad- 
dressing the  crowd,  either  at  Coachmaker's- 
hall,  or  in  the  lobby  at  the  House  of  Com- 
mons, had  alluded  to  what  had  passed  in  Soot- 
land,  at  the  time  when  it  was  m  agitation  to 
extend  the  benefit  ofthe  provisions  ofthe  sta« 
tute  of  18  Geo.  3.  cap.  60,  to  the  Roman  Ca- 
tholics in  that  country,  and  had  said;  "  The 
Scotch  carried  their  point  by  firmness  and 
steadiness  ;**  **  The  Scotch  had  no  redress  till 
they  pulled  down  mass-houses,"  or  *^  When 
the  Scotch  pulled  down  mass-houses  they  had 
redress."  The  Attorney  General  then  offered 
to  call  witnesses  to  prove,  that  mass-houses 
had  actually  been  destroyed  in  Scotland.  This 
evidence  was  objected  to,  as  not  having  any 
relation  to  the  present  enquiry,  or  the  conduct 
of  lord  George,  and  therefore  irrelevant,  and 
inadmissible.  But  the  court  over-rulea  the 
objection,  on  the  ground,  Uiat  the  evidence 
oflered  would  shew  what  it  was  that  lord 
George  had  referred  to,  and  held  out  as  an 
example,  and  that  it  was  matter  of  fact  which 
had  an  actual  existence. 

^  3.  A  witness  being  asked,  on  the  cro^ 
examination,  if  he  was  a  Roman  Catholic,  the 
question  was  objected  to;  and  the  court 
ruled,  that  he  was  not  obliged  to  answer  it, 
because  if  he  were  to  say  he  was,  his  declaia- 
tion  would  be  evidence  against  him,  aiui 
might  subject  him  to  penalties. 

**  4.  Sworn  copies  of  certain  entries  in  the 
Journals  of  the  House  of  Commons,  were 
produced,  and  read  as  evidence,  on  the  part  of 
the  crown,  without  being  objected  to.*^ 

*  "  I,  tjierefore,  presaney  tliat  sworn  oopiai  of  tfa#< 
Joonutls  of  Parliament,  are  clearly  CTidenoe;  thovgh 
I  hare  known  it  dispoLed.    It  is  a  general  notion* 
Uiat  copies  of  nothing  bat  records  are  admissible,  if 
the  originals  exist ;  and  I  remember  a  motion  by  • 
Donning,  in  M.  12 Geo.  S,  (27  Nor.  1771),  for  a. 
role  on  the  Bast  India  Companj,  to  shew  oanse,  why  , 
thej  should  not  permit  their  original  transfer  books . 
to  be  prodooed,  on  the  gronad  timt  copies  from  then 
conld  not  be  read.    He,  on  that  occasion,  stated  the 
principle  to  be.  what  I  hare  jnst  mentioned,  andVud 
there  had  been  manj  nonsoiU  for  wanl  of  prodncing 
the  original  Jonmals  of  the  Hoose  of  Commons, 
But  the  Court  denied  tbt  role  to  Dt  w  bt  stated  it. 


€51]  21  GBOSGE  III.       Proueimp  agahut  Lwd  George  Gardan.     [659 


It  isreeonMof  Dr.  JobBMiiy  that  he  ex- 
fttued  his  satitfiKlioii  at  the  acquittal  of  thb 
nobleman  on  that  principle  [that  the  doc- 
trine Cif  constructive  treasons^  is  a  docUine 
highly  dangerous  to  the  public  freedom].  *'  I 
am  glad,"  nid  he^  •**  that  lord  Geoige  dordon 
has  esoipedy  rather  than  a  precedent  should 
be  established  of  hanging  a  man  for  colk- 
stmctive  treason."  See  the  introductory  re- 
marks on  Mr.  Brine's  Speech  in  this 
cause.  Erskine's  Speedtes^  tol.  1^  p.  69, 2nd 
edition. 


the  liberties  of  his  country,  so  long  as  courts 
i^or  more  concerning  constructive  levying  '  of  justice  are  pure,  by  raismg  his  single  voice 

of  war,  see  Mr.  Luders's  valuable  tract  al-    ---- — --•- ^  ^^ '     — ^  -^-  * 

ready  frequently  cited  and  referred  to  in  this 
work. 


The  conbliision  of  the  Review  of  Lord  Ers- 
kine's  Speeclies  expresses  the  most  just  senti- 
menta  with  the  most  impressive  eloquence. 
The  writer  proves  that  he  partakes  the  emi- 
SMOt  quaTities  which  he  basso  ably  cdebrated. 
The  passage  is  not  peculiarly  appropriated 
to  this  place ;  but  I  cannot  forb^ir  to  avail 
myself  of  the  first  applicable  occasion  to  in^ 
ant  it. 

'^  The  professional  life  of  this  eminent  per- 
son^ who  has,  of  late  vears^  reached  the 
highest  honours  of  the  law,  is  in  every  re- 
spect useful  as  an  example  to  future  lawyers. 
It  shows,  that  a  base,  time-serving  demeanour 
towards  the  judges,  and  a  corrupt  or  servile 
conduct  towuds  the  government,  are  not  the 

«k1  neBtioned  mwtnA  ioitaBoei  wliero  eopiet  of  Mit- 
ten, not  of  reoord,  aro  admtwible;  m  copi<^  of 
Qoait-roUs,  of  pwriih  reaflcvt,  &o.  uid  lord  Maat- 
i{eld  exproMlj  Mud,  tluu  copies  of  the  Joarnals  are 
eridenoei  and  Hiat  he  parlionlarly  remembered  their 
being  admitted  on  a  trial  at  bar,  in  a  cau«e  in  which 
lie  iHtt  leading  oonntel  fbr  the  late  dr  W^adcid  Wil- 
liMn  y^fm,  against  Middleton,  the  sberiiP  of  Deo- 
billlBriKre,  on  an  action  fbr  a  Mae  reton.  Tint  Hfr. 
OkslSff^,  Aea  Speaker  of  tike  House  of  Ckranmons, 
■■is  a  ^iiit  with  kis  fordihipithat  the  copies  should 
DB  oAbred  in  ^ridMiMy  thoogh  nothing  i^onld  haw 
been  so  easy  in  that  one  as  to  prodone  theorfginal 
Jodnmls.  lie  Oooft  added.  Oat  the  reason  '  ah 
'  inoonvenienli/  for  holding  it  not  ntooessarf  to  pro- 
dnce  records,  applied,  wiUi  still  greater  force,,  to 
inch  poUic  books  o  the  tinnsfer  Iwoks  of  the  Bast 
India  CooipaDj;  for  the  utmost  conforion  would 
arise,  if  thej  could  he  transported  to  anj  the  most 
dMukt  iftit  of  the  kingdom,  whencTer  dbeir  odntents 
dionld'be  thought  material  on  the  trial  of  a  cause. 
Hie  rale  granied  was;  to  Aew  oiuflb  why  copies  of 
llMSMtneiin  the'translh'  Kooks,  which  die  party 
nMNml  tb  make  use  of,  as  rehitlve  to  the  nmtbr  in 
dfe|MMto,  shoidd  not  be  taken,  and  road  in  mridenoe 
afthettfal;  the  nlle  to  be  served  bbdi  on  the  soli* 
ellhr  ffbr  die  Company,  and  die  opposite  party. 

**  iVs  correct  priilcnple,  therelbre,  seems  to  be  ak 
UM  dowb  by  lord  Holt  in  a  case  of  Lynche  v,  CMce, 
wit.  '  That,  wherever  an  original  is  of  a  public  na* 
'  ttltv,  aad'«roold  be  evidence  if  prodhdsd,  an  imme- 
« diate  sWorn  copy  dieretf  w31  b«  evidende.  .3  Sklk. 
««6«"»    Bbngiai. 


only,  thoiiKh,  from  the  findlty  of  human  na« 
ture,  and  the  wickedness  of  the  age,  they  may 
otten  prove  the  surest  roods  to  preleiment  It 
exalts  the  character  of  the  English  bunister 
b^ond  what,  in  former  times,  it  had  attained^ 
and  holds  out  an  illustrious  instance  of  pa- 
triotism and  independence^  united  with  the 
highest  l^al  excellence,  and  crowned,  in  the 
worst  of  tunes,  with  the  most  ample  success. 
But  it  19  doubly  imporUAit,  by  proving  how 
mudi  a  angle  man  can  do  against  the  corrupt 
tions  of  bis  age,  and  how  far  he  can  vindicate 


against  the  outcry  of  the  people,  and  the  in- 
fluence of  the  crown,  at  a  time  when  the  imion 
of  these  opposite  forces  was  bearing  down  all 
opposition  m  parliament,  and  daily  setting  at 
nought  the  most  splendid  talents,  armed  with 
Uie  most  just  cause.  While  the  administn^ 
tion  of  the  law  flows  in  such  pure  channels^-* 
while  the  judges  are  incorruptible,  and  are 
watched  bv  the  scrutinizing  eyes  of  an  e&* 
lightened  bar,  as  well  as  by  the  jealous  atten- 
tion of  the  country, — ^while  juries  continue  to 
know  and  to  exercise  their  high  flmcttona, 
and  a  single  advocate  of  honesty  and  talents  re- 
mnins— uiank  God.  happen  what  will  in  other 
places,  our  personal  safety  is  beyond  the  reach 
of  a  corrupt  ministry  and  their  venal  adherents. 
Justice  will  hold  her  even  balance,  in  the 
midst  of  hosts  armed  with  gold  or  with  steel. 
The  law  will  be  administered  steadily,  while 
the  principles  of  right  and  wrong — ^the  evU 
dence  of  the  senses  themselves — ^the  very 
axioms  of  anrithmetto — ^may  seem,  elsewhere^ 
to  be  mixed  in  one  giddy  andinextrk^le  con- 
flisioii ;  and,  afWr  every  other  plank  of  the 
British  constitution  shall  have  stmk  below 
the  weight  of  the  erdwn,  or  been  stove  in  by 
the  violence  of  popular  commotion,  that  one 
will  remain,  to  which  we  are  ever  fondest  of 
cliociiiEi  and  by  which  we  can  always  most 
sur^y  oe  saved.'' 

Edinburgh  Review,  vol.  16,  p.  1S7*' 

[I  yeiy  deeply  regret  that  the  learned  and 
doqtent  writer  dMnot  take  occasion'to  ani- 
madvert on  the  coiistltutibu  of  that  anotni^ 
lous  unidentica]  and  irrespousible  tribunal,  th^ 
court  of  ''  his  miyesty  in  council;^  a  tribunal 
which  is  watched  by  no  scrutinizing  eye^  and 
eoftthnded'by  DO  jadotts  attention.} 


«M[» 


J,M9tkaU. 


itD.  ITSa 


t6M 


(jf  th€  ether  Trfob  mMck  wfre  oeauumed  igf 
tkt  RUdSy  perkapt  thefoUowing  i$  the  moU 
itUeresting»  It  ii  taken  from  the  Sesmmt 
Taper  afjunty  1780.  There  is  alio  ^  Re- 
port  of  it  in  the  Annual  Register, 

Henry  John  MiisKALL,  apothecaiy,inras  in- 
fected for  that  he.  with  forty  others,  and 
more,  did  unlawfully^  riotously,  and  tumultu- 
ouslvy  assemble,  to  the  disturbance  of  the 
pubuc  peace,  and  did  begin  to  demolish  an4 
pull  down  the  dwelline  house  of  ^he  right  ho- 
nourable the  earl  of  mansfield^  against  the, 
statute,  June  7th. 

rrhe  piisoner  challenged  William  Green- 
hill  and  James  Hastey :  the  following  were 
sworn.) 

Jury. 
Solpmon  Hudson,        Thomas  Hind, 
Nathaniel  Dajwin,      Richard  Mole, 
George  li^anvin,  William  Thompson/ 

John  Winstanley,  John  Qobcrafl, 
Samuel  Caldervpoiod,  James  Roeera, 
J.ames  Mandott^  John  Litt^^^ood. 

Richard  Ingram  sworn. 

Where  do  you  livei?— At  No.  1,  Wey- 
ipouth-^tieet. 

Did  you,  at  any  time  oi\Tuesday  night,  the 
6th  of  J.uni^,  aod.  about  what  time,  happen  to 
l^  present  lA  Bloomsl^ufy-square? — I  was 
tjiere.  ^ 

About  vrh^t  time  in  the  night  or  morning  ? 
—The  first  time  I  was  there  was  about  half 
af^  ope,  as  nean  as.I  can  recollect. 

That  I  pigesusae  was  Wednesday  moming^ 
— ^It  was. 

What  oeca^oned  yoiuc  &>^$  there?— I  had 
apent  the  evening  at  Mr.  Spatrow'a,  who 
Keeps  a  house  io,  PortlandrStrcet,  Berkeky- 
iquare.  A  li;ttle  alier  one  I  heaxd  there  was 
a  fire  in  Queen-square.  I  had  a  wife  on  a 
yisJLjt  tff  ^er  father  and  mother  in  Devonshire- 
street;  I  was  anxious  lest  they  shopld  be 
fi^ighlened^  and  therefore  I  went  there. 
.  Ud  you  know  lord  A^ansfield's  house?— 
JRerfeCtlywell. 

Give  an  account  of  the  general  disturbance 
you  observed  at  that  time  about  and  in  lord 
Mansfield's  house? — I  saw  a  great  mob  and 
four  or  fiye  fires,  which  were  alight  in  the 
sti:eet.  There  were  some  people  in  tite  house 
flinging  out  the  fijrniture. 

Did  you  observe  any  persons  in  the  house 
aJt  that  time  ? — ^Yes.  I  dbserved  a  man  and 
yroman,  and  some  children ;  they  were  fiingr 
in^  out  some  furniture,  and  I  s&v  some 
children  at  the  door.  As  I  passed  by  I  was 
piessed  by  the  mob.  I  stood  opposite  lord 
Mansfield's  door.  There  were  some  children 
then  bringing  out  books  and  burning  them 
upon  the  fire. 

What  number  of  the  mob  do  you  conceive 
t^e  were  at  that  time  assembled  round  the 
bouse  ?— A  great  number. 


Were  there  100,  900,  50|  or  flO?— There 
were  a  great  number  upon  the  dvke  of  Bed- 
lord's  wall,  a  great  number  in  the  street,  ao 
that  I  passed  with  difficulty  through  the  mob* 

Then  you  were  in  your  way  to  Devonshire- 
street? — ^I  was. 

At  that  time  did  you  see  the  prisoner  at  tbv 
bar,  Mr.  Maskall  ? — I  did. 

Were  you  acquainted  with  his  person  be* 
five  ?—S9me  years.  I  have  known  falmper* 
sonally,  though  not  intimately. 

Whereabouts  was  he  at  the  first  time  you 
saw  him?-rStanding  facine  lord  Mansfidd's, 
by  the  fire,  nearest  to  lord  Mansfield's  d()or, 
with  his  hand  upon  a  boy*s  shoulder  w)k>  waa 
putting  books  into  the  fire. 

Did  you  observe  whether  he  had  any  thina 
id  l)is  hat  at  that  time?— Not  at  that  timeTl 
did  not  observe  that  he  had  any  thing  in  his 
hat ;  I  passed  on  immediately  to  Devonshire 
street,  %o  see  if  my  wife  ana  her  .fitther  and 
mother  were  safe. 

Explain  to  the  jury  what  it  was  he  was 
doing  to  the  boy  ? — ^I  looked  on  it  that  he  was 
encoura^g  the  boy ;  but  I  passed  on ;  I  did 
not  then  make  observation,  but  passed  on  to 
Devonsliire^street,  to  see  if  the  iamuy  were 
safe.  I  did  not  then  knock  at  the  door  for  a 
very  particular  reason. 

You  did  not  stop,  but  passed  on? — ^I  might 
be  detained  in  passing  oy  the  door  in  the 
whole  five  minutes. 

Was  this  all  you  observed  the  first  time 
when  you  were  making  your  way  to  go  into 
Devonshire-street? — ^I  saw  some  furniture 
flyine  out,  particularly  a  remarkable  table, 
which  struck  my  eye;  it  was  throwaoutof 
the  two  pair  of  stairs  room. 

Were  you  near  enoueh  to  observe  what  be* 
came  of  the  boy,  or  what  was  done  with  the 
books  he  had  with  him  ? — ^There  were  sevml 
books  which  were  burning  upon  the  fire  at  the 
time ;  and  this  book,  I  saw  the  boy  bring  it 
down ;  he  was  a  well  dressed  little  boy.  It 
was  a  large  book>  he  just  had  come  to  the 
fice  as  Mr.  Maskall  clapped  his  hand  upon  hfs 
shoulder*  The  boy  brought  the  book  upon 
his  head,  it  was  a  large  book;  it  seemeato 
me  to  be  a  felio. 

From  the  manner  in  which  Mr.  Maskall' <Md 
that,  did  it  appear  to  }[ou  that  it  was  done  fev 
the  purpose  ot  preventing  the  book  from  being 
thrown  into  tne  fire,  or  encouraging  him?«— 
He  put  his  hand  upon  his  shoulder  in  the 
manner  one  would  to  encourage  a  boy,  to  say 
good  boy ;  but  I  was  at  such  a  distance  that  I 
did  not  mind  the  words. 

Did  you  then  go  on  to  Devonshire-street^ 
— I  did,  but  I  did  not  speak  to  any*  part  of  the 
family  there,  for  I  was  pleased  tne  familjF 
were  abed  for  a  singular  teason ;  it  was  the 
only  house  I  believe  m  the  street  that  was  not 
illuminated. 

How  long  do  you  think  it  might  be  before 
you  returned  again  to  Bloomsbury-square  ?— •. 
About  a  quarter  of  an  hour.  I  have  in  tha^ 
neighbournood  a  faithful  honest  servant,  wh« 


'655] 


20  GEORGE  III.  Proceedings  rOaike  to  ike  Riots ;—  [656 


lived  Willi  me  numy  years,  one  Soss,  an  em- 
broiderer; I  went  to  see  if  he  was  safe,  I  saw 
him  at  the  window  that  he  was  safe ;  then  I 
.returned  again  to  Bloomsbury-square. 

What  time  might  it  be  before  you  returned 
to  the  square?— I  stood  some  httle  time  in 
Devonshire-street,  to  see  if  there  was  any 
light  in  the  house,  and  Hooked  down  into  the 
area,  to  see  if  they  had  prudently  concealed 
any  light  below  stairs ;  seeing  none,  I  would 
not  disturb  nor  alarm  my  wife. 

What  is  yciur  conjecture  as  to  the  time  f — I 
apprehend,  from  the  time  I  left  Mr.  8parrow*8, 
till  I  got  the  second  time  back  to  Bloomsbury- 
square,  that  it  must  be  near  two  o'clock. 

When  you  returned  to  the  sauare  did  you 
see  the  prisoner,  at  that  time  r — ^Not  imme- 
diately on  returning  to  the  square,  for  I  stop- 
ped at  the  first  and  second  fire ;  but  in  going 
on  farther,  I  saw  the  gentleman  at  the  bar 
standing  with  a  blue  cockade  in  his  hat;  ano- 
ther person  had  hold  of  his  arm  at  that  time ; 
some  books  were  then  brought  out  to  the 
door,  and  liiey  were  flingine  some  thin^  out 
of  the  windows  and  pulling  down  the  wmdow 
firames ;  and  the  shutters  were  flinging  out  on 
one  side  of  the  house,  while  some  furniture 
was  fluns  out  on  the  other  part  opposite  the 
duke  of  Bedford's,  I  took  partiailar  notice  of 
some  books  that  were  then  burning ;  I  made 
the  observation,  that  ^  the  books  could  have 
done  no  harm,  the  mob  carried  their  resent- 
ment too  fkr."  Upon  that  a  man  on  my  left 
baad  sud,  ^<  What^  Sir !''  in  a  menacing  tone. 
I  thought  myself  in  some  danger ;  I  corrected 
myself  immediately,  and  said,  *^  Lord  George 
Gordon  will  |;et  this  bill  repealed,  it  is  a  pity 
things  are  ^mg  so  far.''  Mr.  Maskall  stood 
upon  my  right  hand  within  one;  he  looked 
over  that  man's  shoulder  and  said,  *'  It  is  a 
damned  lie,  the  Bill  will  not  be  repealed." 
The  man  that  said  *'  What,  Sir !"  was  on  my 
left  hand,  Mr.  Maskall  was  next  but  one  to  me 
on  my  rtght. 

What  happened  upon  that? — A  person 
upon  mv  right  hand,  who  stood  even  with 
me,  said,  ^  Maskall,  you  are  always  in  sedi- 
tion^" or,  ^.you  are  a  seditious  person,"  I 


cannot  say  which,  but  words  to  that  effect;  I 
looked  Maskall  full  in  the  face ;  he  put  his 
hand  upon  the  man's  shoulder  that  stood  on 
my  ri^t  Ivuid  between  him  and  me,  and 
said,  'n[*hat  man  in  the  black  cockade,'*  mean- 
ing me,  '^  is>a  spy ;"  I  had  a  black  cockade 
in  my  hat. 

How  came  you  to  wear-  a  oockade  ? — ^I  have 
had  the  honour  to  bear  his  majesty's  com- 
mission these  do  years. 

In  what  capacity? — Upon  the  physical 
staff. 

What  is  the  nature  of  your  appointment, 
what  were  you  in  the  army  ?— In  tne  last  war 
surgeon  to  the  royal  dragoons,  operating  sur- 
geon to  the  army.  Since  that  I  have  been 
promoted. 

You  are  entitled  to  pay  ? — ^Yes,  and  to  an 
honorary  rank,  I  rank  as  a  captain  in  the 


army.  The  man  on  my  right  hand  next  Mr. 
Maskall  seized  me  by  the  collar,  and  cried 
out,  **  Spies  \  spies !"  meaning  me  and  my 
companion,  as  1  supposed. 

Court,  This  man,  if  I  understand  you  right, 
had  before  said  to  Maskall,  ''  you  are  always 
in  sedition  ?" — A.  No ;  another  person  who 
stood  even  with  me  said  that;  the  person 
whom  I  made  the  remark  to  it  was  who  called 
him  seditious.  Several  people  echoed  his 
words;  and  the  people  who  were  about 
shoved  me  through  the  ring  of  people  who' 
were  there,  and  then  back  again. 

How  far  do  you  thiuk  you  were  shoved 
backwards  and  forwards  ?— -About  three  or 
four  paces  backwards  and  forwards. 

Were  vou  by  this  shoving  removed  any 
farther  from  Mr.  Maskall  ?-MSetting  back 
again,  I  was  shoved  nearer  to  Mr.  Maskall. 

Did  you  afterwards  make  any  observation 
upon  Mr.  Maskall's  conduct?— I  got  hold  of 
a  person  who  had  a  leather  apron  on,  and  ap- 
peeded  to  him,  thinking  mvself  in  danger, 
whether  lord  George  would  not  repeal  the 
bill.  By  applying  myself  to  these  j>eople, 
particularly  a  man  whose  button  I  laid  hold 
of,  who  said  lord  George  would  repeal  the 
bill,  I  slipped  from  them,  and  then  got  be- 
hind Mr.  Maskall.  Just  then  the  guards 
came  up ;  they  came  as  from  Russell-street' 
way.  I  did  not  see  the  suards  till  they  were 
very  close  upon  me.  Maskall,  who  was  be* 
fore  me  at  tnis  time,  pushed  forwards  some 
boys,  and  huzzaed  and  cried  out.  No  Popery. 

He  or  the  boys  ?— -He  did,  ana  the  boy^  did 
the  same. 

How  &r  distant  might  he  be  from  the 
guards  at  the  time  ?— The  ranks  ck>sed.  BIr. 
Maskall  went  up  close  to  some  other  of  the 
mob,  close  to  them ;  he  huziaed  and  called 
out,  NoPopciy. 

Had  he  his  hat  on  or  off  then  ?— -He  pulled 
off  his  hat  and  huzzaed,  and  said.  No  Popery. 
He  had  a  blue  cockade  in  his  hat  before  he 
polled  it  out  The  mob  pressed  close  on  the 
guards ;  the  officer  of  the  guards  pulled  off* 
his  hat  and  told  them  that  he  would  Hot  hurt 
a  hair  of  their  heads,  but  desired  them  to  dis- 
perse*  I  lost  sisht  of  Mr.  Maskall.  Then- 
the  guards  wheeled  to  the  right;  presentlv 
afler  I  saw  Maskall  come  near  Bedford-wall 
asain,  and  then  there  was  a  party  of  people, 
about  a  dozen,  who  came  with  a  blue  flag, 
and  called  out,  '^  Where  next,  where  nextP 
and  then  came  up  towards  Mr.  Maskall. 

Do  you  recollect  how  hr  they  were  from 
Mr.  Maskall?— They  seemed  to  come  from 
the  nearest  ^re,  next  to  the  duke  of  Bedford's. 

How  near  do  you  think  they  were  to  Mr. 
Maskall  when  they  said,  "  where  next?"—. 
They  were  about  80  yards  I  fancy  from  where 
we  stood.  They  came  veiy  near  to  where 
Mr.  Maskall  stood;  and  when  they  asked 
<<  where  next?"  I  heard  the  word  answered, 
«  Duke." 

Do  you  know  who  gave  that  answvr, 
<<  Duke?"--I  really  believe  it  was  Mr.  Mas- 


657] 


Trial  t>fU,  J.  Masialt. 


A.  D.  nSOi 


[659 


Indl*.  It  was  the  tone  of  his  voice,  but  I  will 
not  so  positively  swear  that  it  absolutely  was 
his  voice ;  but  I  most  firmly  believe  it. 

What  became  then  of  those  persons  who 
had  the  blue  flag  before  them  ? — ^They  turned 
about  and  went  away ;  and  I  think  then  they 
l-etumed^back  again.  I  did  not  see  them  go 
to  anv  particular  spot ;  I  saw  them  join  the 
crowd. 

How  near  were  you  to  Mr.  Maskall  at  this 
time,  or  did  you  get  near  to  him  at  any  time 
afterwards? — At  the  time.  I  came  up  to  Mr« 
Maskall.  I  might  be  a  yard  and  an  half  or 
two  yards  from  him. 

Were  you  near  enough  to  distinguish  whe- 
ther the  voice  which  made  that  answer, 
**  Duke,**  was  either  the  voice  of  Mr.  Maskall, 
or  of  somebody  in  his  company  ? — I  did  not 
look  at  his  face  at  the  time  the  words  were 
uttered,  or  I  might  have  been  more  certain^ 
but  I  most  firmly  believe  it  was  his  voice 
from  the  tone,  and  the  impression  that  his 
words  had  made  on  me  but  just  before. 

After  that  did  vou  hear  any  thing  said  to 
Mr.  Maskall,  and  any  body  with  him,  and 
any  answer  given  by  Mr.  Maskall  afterwards  ? 
—After  that  I  saw  Mr.  Maskall  go  towards 
Kussell-street,  and  I  went  towards  home.  I 
had  occasion  to  stop  at  the  corner  of  one  of 
the  streets,  and  Mr.  Maskall,  with  three  or 
four  persons  whom  I  had  seen  him  walk  with 
towards  Russell-street,  seemed  then  to  be 
halting  and  close  to  a  bulk.  I  heard  a 
man  wno  had  a  paper  in  his  hand  sav. ''  Why 
leave  out  PeterDoroush  and  Bristol  r'  Mr. 
Maskall  was  in  arm-nold  with  another  per- 
son, and  there  were  three  or  four  more  with 
him. 

You  said  he  halted? — Yes.  I  did  not  im- 
mediately follow  them  to  Russell-street,  but 
within  a  minute  or  two  I  did ;  and  I  stopped  a 
minute  or  two  at  the  end  of  one  of  the  streets. 
As  I  turned  again  into  Russell-street  it  ap^ 
peared  to  me  as  if  Mr.  Maskall  and  the  peo- 
ple with  him  had  made  a  sudden  halt  just  at 
the  instant.  It  was  in  Russellrstreet,  on  the 
left  hand  side  of  the  way.  A  person  who 
seemed  to  hold  a  paper  in  his  hand,  or  some- 
thing that  appeared  to  me  like  a  paper,  said, 
"  Why  leave  out  Peterborough  and  Bristol  ?*' 

To  whom  was  this  addressed  ? — It  appeared 
to  me  to  be  addressed  to  Mr.  Maskall  and  the 
person  who  was  with  him  in  arm-hold. 

Was  any  answer  given,  and  by  whom  ? — 
.The  answer  was  reuirned  by  Mr.  Maskall. 
As  near  as  I  can  tell  the  answer  was,  *'  They 
are  not  left  out,  I  have  not  scratched  them 
out,  but  do  not  stay  lon^  in^  Devonshire,  but 
go  to  the  Bank,  there  is  a  million  of  money 
to  pay  vou  for  your  pains,  and  at  the  Excise- 
office  there  are  40,000/.  not  paid  in.** 

After  these  expressions,  did  you  observe 
any  other  different  persons  address  them- 
selves to  Mr.  Maskall? — No;  I  passed. them 
close. 

Di4  you  in  your  way  home,  or  in  the  course 
of  the  evenuig  afterwards,  see  any  other  per- 

VOL.  XXI, 


sons  address  themselves  to  Mr.  Maskall,  or 
Mr.  Maskall  address  himself  to  any  of  them  ^ 
— No,  after  that  I  saw  no  more  of  Mr* 
Maskall. 

What  became  of  you  ? — t  made  an  obser'* 
vation  upon  his  conduct,  and  I  went  home. 

Were  you  near  enough  to  Mr,  Maskall  to 
be  sure  tnat  he  was  the  person  who  gave  the 
answer  you  have  just  now  mentioned? — I  am 
certain;  I  was  very  close  at  the  time.  I 
turned  clOse  round  the  corner;  the  people 
were  then  against  a  bulk  at  the  corner  of  the 
street,  and  he  stood  nearer  to  the  channel. 

Were  there  many  other  persons  about  him  i 
— ^Three  or  four  that  he  went  with ;  they  ap- 
peared to  be  the  same  persons  whom  I  saw 
nim  go  with  towards  Russell-street. 

Were  there  any  other  indifferent  persons 
there  besides  yourscllf  at  that  time  ? — ^There 
was  another  person  in  the  street 

Crosi-Examinatian . 

You  live  at  No.  1,  in  Weymouth-street  ?-— 
Ves. 

Whereabouts  is  that  ? — ^It  comes  into  Port- 
land-road. 

^  Your  wife,  1  think  you  sa^%  Was  upon  a 
visit  in  Devonshire-street  ?— At  her  tather- 
in-law*s. 

Was  it  the  way  then  to  go  through  Blooms^ 
btiry-square  ? — I  could  go  no  other  way  from 
where  I  was  spending  the  evening  that  I 
know,  unless  I  had  gone  across  the  fieldsi 
which  would  not  be  safe  and  prudent. 

How  happened  it  that  your  wife  should  be 
upon  a  visit  to  heir  father  and  mother's  with- 
out you  ? — I  have  expected  for  seven  or  eight 
months  past  to  be  called  upon  full  pay,  and 
consequently  when  I  came  to  town  I  did  not 
take  a  house ;  she  has  always  when  I  have 
been  in  town  been  at  her  fatiier's. 

Then  because  you  soon  expect  to  be  called 
upon  fiill  pay,  you  do  not  take  a  house,  but 
your  wife  goes  and  lives  with  her  father  and 
mother,  and  you  take  lodgings  ? — Yes. 

What  is  the  meaning  of  that  ? — It  is  a  great 
deal  more  convenient  to  be  with  a  parent, 
who  loves  her,  than  at  a  lodging. 

So  when  you  went  to  the  house,  from  the 
affection  you  bear  your  father  and  mother^ 
you  never  knocked  at  the  door  to  see  if  thev 
were  safe,  but  immediately  left  them  ? — Fino^ 
ing  there  was  no  light  ii^  the  house^  I  was 
pleased  that  they  were  a^bed,  and  I  thought 
it  would  be  cniel  to  alarm  them. 

Was  there  no  other  reason  for  yoiir  not  en- 
tering that  door  ?— No^  for  I  sat  up  the  next 
night  in  that  house. 

Are  you  at  liberty  to  enter  that  house 
when  the  father  is  at  home? — I  have  not 
visited  in  that  house  for  these  nine  years, 
though  Mr.  and  Mrs.  Morris  have  been  fre- 
quently in  the  cbunl^  with  me  for  three  or 
lour  days  together.     ' 

Does  not  your  wife  live  entirely  with  them^ 
and  separate  from  you  from  the  ill  usage  she 
has  received  at  your  ba^d^  ?— ^o  far  from  it; 

3  tJ 


fe9] 


20  GEORGE  III.  Proceedings  relative  io  ike  Riots  :— 


[660 


]piat  my  wife  is  often  with  me,  lies  with  me, 
ind  lives  witli  me,  and  no  man  ever  loved  a 
woman  better  than  I. do  her.  I  married  heir 
for  love,  and  I  love  her  still  dearly. 

At  half  after  one  you  say  you  past  by  ? — I 
believe  it  might  be  thereabouts. 

Mr.  Maskall  was  then  just  before  lord 
Mansfield's  door  in  Russell-street? — ^I  do  not 
know  the  name  of  the  street  which  lord 
Mansfield's  door  comes  into ;  he  was  opposite 
that  door  which  comes  out  into  the  street. 

There  was,  I  understand,  a  fire  just  before 
^e  door? — ^Yes;  there  were  three  or  four 
fires. 

Were  there  no  soldiers  there  at  that  time  ? 
•»I  observed  two  sets  of  soldiers.  There  were 
some  soldiers  on  the  pavement,  on  the  same 
side  with  lord  Mansfield's  house  in  the  square. 
The  soldiers  that  I  saw  come  as  a  gusuti  to 
disperse  the  mob,  came  from  Russell-street. 

I  am  asking,  whether  there*  were  not  a 
ntvnber  of  soldiers  that  were  in  a  circle  before 
the  house  when  you  came  there  at  half  after 
one  ? — I  did  not  see  them.  I  saw  the  soldiers 
drawn  up  upon  the  pavement,  but  I  did  not 
see  any  when  I  first  went  there. 

Was  it  on  the  pavement  immediately  be- 
fore the  door  ? — In  the  square  on  the  side  df 
k>rd  Mansfidd's  house. 

Then  tiie  soldiers  were  in  a  line  upon  the 
pavement  down  the  square,  did  they  cross  the 
street  to  the  duke  of  Bedford's  wall  ? — ^No,  I 
<lid  not  see  them  cross  to  the  duke  of  Bed- 
ford's wall. 

How  were  the  soldiers  situated  when  you 
came  back  firom  Devonshire-street? — I  did 
not  see  the  soldiers  then ;  I  saw  the  soldiers 
ms  I  came  fix>m  Russell-street,  when  I  first 
crossed  Bloomsbury-square  upon  the  pavement 
next  lord  Mansfield's;  I  mean  the  pavement 
ki  the  square.  In  no  other  position  did  I  see 
soldiers,  or  take  notice  of  them^  but  there 
might  be. 

At  that  time,  you  say  Mr.  Maskall  had  no 
eockadc  in  his  hat? — I  did  not  say  that;  I 
say  I  did  not  perceive  any. 

Did  you  speak  to  Mr.  Maskall  at  that  time  ? 
— I  did  not;  I  did  not  speak  to  hini  the  whole 
'fticht. 

When  you  returned  there,  you  were  so  lucky 
as  to  sec  Mr.  Maskall  again  r — ^I  did. 

Whereabouts  was  he  then  ? — ^Nearer  to  the 
duke  of  Bedford's  wall,  nearer  to  the  last  fire 
-in  the  square. 

Court,  If  I  took  you  right,  when  you  first 
saw  the  prisoner,  he  was  on  the  opposite  side 
of  the  street,  facing  lord  Mansfield's? — ^Ile 
was. 

And  when  yoa  saw  him  agun,  upon  your 
return,  youthen  saw  him  near* the  duke  of 
Bedford's  wall,  was  it  near  to  Russell-street, 
or  the  gate  ? — Between  Russell-street  and  the 
gate. 

Counselor  the  Prisoner,  At  that  time  that 
you  saw  him  between  the  duke  of  Bedford's 
gate  and  Russell-street,  v^'ss  there  a  line  of 
•oldiers  tbea  between  the  mob  and  you  and 


him  ? — A,  I  did  not  perceive  any  line  of  sol- 
diers then  on  that  side  next  to* the  house; 
there  were  soldiers  upon  the  pavement  on  the 
other  side. 

Was  not  the  pavement  rather  too  close  to 
the  house  for  them  to  stand  there ;  the  house 
was  on  fire  then? — ^No;  the  house  was  not 
on  fire. 

Were  the  fires  within  or  outside  the  sol- 
diers f — ^There  were  fires  along  Russell-street 
up  to  the  square,  there  were  Tour  or  &ve  of 
them  ;  I  took  no  notice  of  the  position  of  the 
soldiers  farther  than  I  have  mentioned;  there 
were  four  or  five  fires  that  way  firom  the  street 
along  the  square,  looking  towards  South- 
ampton-row. 

You  are  very  particular  as  to  the  situation 
of  the  persons,  one  to  your  left  hand,  and  the 
other  to  your  right? — It  madc^a  veiy  great 
impression  upon  me. 

What  Hid  ? — Every  thing  I  saw  that  nieht ; 
when  I  went  the  next  &y  to  Devonshire- 
street,  I  found  my  wife  so  extremely  ill,  in 
consequence  of  a  fire  which  had  happened 
that  night,  that  I  was  obliged  to  sit  up  with 
her  all  night;  her  father  was  gone  to  the 
Excise-office,  her  mother  was  gone  into  the 
country ;  I  then  mentioned  Maskall's  name, 
and  said  I  thought  his  behaviour  very  wicked. 

And  you  mentioned  all  the  circumstances 
that  it  was  necessarv  to  tell  to-day? — Not 
necessary  to  tell  to-dav ;  for  I  mentioned  it 
the  next  day,  and  on  the  Thursday  publiclj 
in  thr^e  dinerent  places. 

Do  you  happen  to  know  the  person  who 
said,  ^  Masksili,  you  are  always  in  sedition  ?" 
—Yes. 

What  is  his  name  ? — Molloy. 

Did  not  you  hesitate  a  little  in  that  an- 
swer?— No;  I  have  declared  it  publicly  be- 
fore. 

Molloy  is  a  friend  of  ^rours,  b  he  not? — 
Only  a  very  slight  acquaintance ;  he  spends 
the  evening  in  the  same  house  that  I  often 
do. 

Was  he  with  you  before,  or  only  just  at 
tliat  critical  minute  ? — I  had  desired  him  to 
go  with  me  from  Sparrow's^  lest  there  should 
be  any  danger  to  my  family. 

He  set  out  with  you  from  the  place  where 
you  spent  your  evening^to  Devonshire-street  f 
— Yes. 

You  both  set  out  together,  and  you  both 
returned  together ;  what  was  the  reason  he 
gave  for  saymg  Maskall  was  always  in  sedi- 
tion ? — ^lie  gave  me  a  reason  why  he  said  so. 

Molloy  returned  with  you  froni  Devonshire- 
street? — He  did. 

He  came  up  directly  with  you  to  the  place 
where  Mr.  Maskall  stood  ? — ^1  will  not  take 
upon  me  to  say  he  came  up  directly  with  me, 
because  in  a  crowd  people  are  often  a  little 
separated;  he  came  up  and  stood  close  to 
me,  and  was  so  when  he  said  to  Maskall, 
'*  You  are  always  in  sedition." 

Upon  which  Mr.  Maskall  said,  **  the  man 
in  the  black  cockade  b  a  spy?" — ^Yes. 


861] 


Trial  ofH.  J.  MaskalL 


A.  D.  1Y80. 


[662 


He  meant  to  compliment  you  upon  that  oc- 
casion?— I  believe  so. 

I  think  you  say  you  are  a  surgeon  in  the 
army  ? — ^An  apothecary. 

Do  other  apothecaries  in  the  army  wear 
cockades  ?— There  is  a  standing  order  of  the 
army,  in  order  to  distinguish  the  gentlemen 
upon  the  staff,  and  the  surgeons  in  the  regi- 
ment, by  prince  Ferdinand,  the  marquis  of 
Granby,  and  general  Conway,  that  they 
should  be  dislmguished  by  a  separate  imi- 
form. 

How  .long  have  you  received  half-pay? — 
Seventeen  years. 

Have  you  constantly  received  it  for  seven- 
teen years  ? — I  have  sworn  to  it  constantly,  I 
swore  to  it  last  Monday,  before  justice  Wright; 
I  took  out  my  certificate  at  the  War-oflBce. 

For  seventeen  years  you  have  received  this 
half-pay?— I  perceive  your  quibble,  it  is  by 
way  of  exposing  my  character:  I  have  not  re- 
ceived the  whoTe  of  it,  but  only  a  part  of  it ; 
for  in  order  to  discharge  some  debts  that  I 
owed  the  regiment  which  I  was  surgeon  to^  I 
parted  with  part  of  it. 

I  do  not  mean  to  quibble,  but  it  is  my  duty 
to  sift  your  character :  have  not  you  been  a 
bankn^t  within  these  few  years?— -Not  a  few 
years ;  it  is  sixteen  years,  ago. 

And  you  have  received  your  half-pay  ever 
since^  Instead  of  your  cr^itors? — My  creditors 
have  nothing  to  do  with  it»  as  I  understood. 

You  have  been  an  insolvent  debtor  since 
that  time? — The  government,  some  years 
Bff>y  held  out  to  officers  an  act  of  parliament, 
that  they  would  be  relieved  from  any  sums 
of  money  that  they  had  taken  up  upon 
usurious  contracts  upon  their  pay;  a  great 
number  of  officers  embraced  that  opportunity, 
and  exposed  their  names  and  characters,  witn- 
out  any  effect,  for  it  had  no  effect  in  the  Pay- 
office. 

You  luLve  shewn  saeacity  enough  in  the 
course  of  this  business  Uiis  morning  to  under- 
stand the  question  I  have  put  to  you:  Have 
you  been  m  jail  within  tnese  last  sixteen 
years  ?— No ;  I  never  was  in  Jail. 

Have  ycju  or  not  been  cleared  under  an 
Insolvent  Debtors  Act  ?— Under  that  clause  of 
the  act  for  the  benefit  of  officers  I  was,  but  1 
nevj^r  was  amsted,  or  had  any  demand  made 
ag^unst  me'for  th^  monies. 

Have  you  ever  had  your  certificate  as  a 
lianknipt? — ^I  had  it  immediately. 

Have  not  you  within  these  three  or  four 
Years  aasigi^d  oyer  your  effects  for  the  bene- 
fit of  your  creditors? — Yeis,  upon  leaving 
Kingston,  I  did. 

WW  UwM  ^o  was  this?— Last  August 

Th^se  effect  were  assigned  over  oy  a  bill 
qf  94l>  I  heheve  ?— They  vere. 

How  long  was  it  that  you  were  near  to  Mr. 
Maskall,  within  his  sight,  upon  your  return- 
ing from  Pcvonshire-street  with  Molloy  till 
the  time  you  left  him,  when  the  guards  came 
up? — ^I  l^d  not  been  yery  long  there  befiuie 
tfeiefle words pwed^  i|atl wasaspy. 


I 


How  lone  was  it  ?— I  suppose  I  had  been  in 
that  circle  four  or  five  minutes  when  I  made 
the  observation,  that  it  was  a  pity  that  the ' 
books  should  be  burned. 

Then,  in  four  or  five  minutes  after  you  had 
been  there,  he  went  down  to  Great  Russell- 
street? — I  stopped  some  time;  when  I  re- 
turned, I  did  not  see  him  in  the  place  where 
I  first  saw  him ;  but  in  going  on  farther,  I 
saw  him;  I  stood  by  him, and  there  happened 
the  conversation  I  mentioned. 

You  saw  him  when  the  guards  came  up  ? 
—Yes,  and  I  saw  him  before  the  guards 
came  up. 

You  had  omitted  seeing  him  some  little 
time? — I  was  turned  during  the  time,  I  was 
shoved  about  by  the  mob ;  but  just  as  I  got . 
loose  from  them  the  guard  came  up,  and  I 
then  got  behind  him. 

You  said,  I  think,  that  jou  saw  him  oppo- 
site Bedford  wall?— Yes,  near  the  spot  where 
I  had  left  him. 

Then  vou  continued  to  see  him  near  Bed- 
ford wall  when  you  returned,  till  the  time  hcf 
walked  towards  Great-liussell-street  ?— Yes. 

At  that  time  he  was  walking  with  a  gentle- 
man under  his  arm  ? — He  had  hold  of  a  gen- 
tleman, or  a  gentleman  had  hold  of  his  arm. 

What  kind  of  a  man  was  that,  a  fat  or  a. 
lean  man  ? — I  did  not  take  paflicular  notice, 
he  seemed  a  good  looking  man. 

So  these  two  gentlemen  were  walking  away 
down  Russell-sueet?— With  three  or  fqur 
other  persons. 

What  sort  of  persons?-— They  did  not  ap- 
pear very  reputable  persons. 

So  vou  took  the  opportunity  of  walking 
after  them  ? — ^It  was  time  for  me  to  go  home. 

Just  at  the  time  Mr.  Maskall  did  ?— He  had 
gone  two  or  three  minutes  before. 

You  do  not  mean  that  you  dogged  him  ? — ^I 
did  not  mean  to  dog  him. 

You  heard  this  conversation  about  the  Bank 
and  Excise  and  God  knows  what  ?— I  sawandf 
heard  every  thins  I  related. 

And  the  V  couM  see  you  too,  I  suppose  ? — ^I 
do  not  doubt  it 

Was  Molloy  with  you  at  that  time  ?— He 
was. 

Did  you  not  think  it  rather  imprudent  in 
Mr.  Maskall  to  hold  this  treasonable  and  dia- 
bolical conversation,  when  they  saw  you)  who 
Mr.  Maskall  had  before  said  was  a  spy  ? 

Q^n$el  for  iht  Crown.  He  did  not  say  they 
saw  him. 

Counsel  for  the  Prmner,  Yes,  he  did  say  so. 

One  of  the  Jury,  I  do  not  understand  him 
so. 

Counsel  for  the  Prisoner.  What  did  you 
say? — I  said  they  might  have  seen  me.  t 
turned  round  the  comer  as  I  said  before,  and 
they  seemed  to  have  made  a  sudden  halt 

If  four  or  five  people  were,  in  company  and 
they  had  made  a  sudden  halt,  in  all  probability 
they  would  have  looked  round  so  as  to  have 
seen  you,  you  were  near  enough  to  hear  their 
conversation  and  to  see  Mr.  Maskall's  fac^ 


6651 


20  GEORGE  III.  ProeeaSngs  rdathe  to  iJie  Riolt : — 


[664 


and  therefore  it  was  possible  he  might  have 
3een  you? — It  was. 

Was  it  not  more,  was  it  not  probable  ? — ^I 
think  not,  while  he  was  talking  to  them. 

So  Mr.  Maskallf  who  before  had  told  the 
mob  that  you  were  a  spy,  was  so  imprudent 
as  to  hold  this  conversation  while  you  were  at 
his  elbow  ? — I  believe  they  made  that  sudden 
halt  not  supposing  that  I  was  near  them. 
"When  I  turned  up  the  street  they  were  not 
there ;  I  did  not  take  notice  of  them. 

So  there  were  Mr.  Maskall  and  the  gentle- 
ynan  who  was  with  him,  and  three  or  four  per- 
sops  who  did  not  look  Quite  so  creditable,  and 
Molloy  and  yourself? — There  were. 

There  was  no  mob  at  that  time  in  the 
street? — ^Isaw  no  mob  in  the  street. 

I  would  not  misunderstand  nor  mistake 
what  you  said,  you  said  some  time  ago,  when 
asked  who  was  m  the  street,  that  no  indiffer- 
ent person  was  in  the  street  besides  yourself? 
—I  did  not  say  that ;  the  question  asked  from 
itiy  lord,  was,  whether  there  was  any  indif- 
ferent persop  in  the  street.  By  indifferent 
person  I  comprehend  my  lord  meant  any  indif- 
ferent person  with  him ;  when  it  was  asked, 
^ay  person  like  myself,  I  said  yes. 

Court, '  I  meiMit  persons  wh6m  the  prisoner 
might  be  cautious  of  speaking  before  r — I  ob- 
served there  was  only  that  one  person  with 
|ne  whom  I  mentioned  before. 

Qourt.    That  was  Molloy  ?^Yes. 

Counsel  for  the  Prisoner,  What  time  was 
this  ? — I  was  abed  a  little  after  three  o'clock. 

How  do  I  know  when  you  go 'to  bed?  I 
em  asking  you  at  what  time  this  conversation 
th  Russcll-street  was  held? — I  suppose  I  was 
twenty  minutes  going  home  and  getting  to 
J>ed. 

Then  it  was  about  half  after  two  ?— I  sup- 
pose so,  or  rather  near  three, 

I  am  desired  to  ask  you  whether  you  arc 
not  now  an  insolvent  ? — No,  I  am  not. 

Cotirt.  Did  you  give  any  account  of  burn- 
ing the  books  when  you  were  examined  be- 
^re  the  magistrate  ? — A,  I  think  I  did.  I 
think  I  meptioned  every  circumstance  then 
as  I  have  now  mentioned  them ;  and  I  de- 
clared I  had  no  view  whatever  of  any  reward. 
I  declared  the  whole  on  Thursday  to  a  friend 
of  mine,  who  will  appear.  I  declared  it 
likewise  to  some  gentlemen  at  the  coffee- 
house. I  likewise  declared  it  afterwards  at 
Ifr.  Sparrow's.  And  when  Mr.  Maskall  and 
Jii»  counsel  were  admitted  before  justice 
Wright,  I  desired  they  might  cross-exaipine 
ine,  and  take  any  notes  they  pleased.  I  be- 
lieve I  sec  the  eentlemaQ  in  court  who  took 
some  memoranmims. 

Court,  As  to  the  reward,  that  is  out  of  the 
case,  (or  he  discovered  it  next  day  ? — A.  I  did, 
but  I  declare  to  God  and  this  court  I  never 
had  any  idea  of  any  n^alicious  intention  against 
Mr.  Mix^kall. 

It  docs  not  appear  upon  the  examination,  as 
fcturncd  by  the  justice,  that  any  thing  is  said 
ji|bout  "  the  books  having  done  no  hann/' 


Sir  Thomas  M'dU  sworn. 


Whether  you  were  at  lord  Mansfield's  house 
upon  Tuesday  June  6th,  at  the  time  of  the 
not  ? — I  was. 

Do  you  know  the  prisoner  ? — I  do.  I  knew 
him  by  sight  before. 

Be  so  good  as  to  tell  your  story  in  your  own 
manner? — At  about  a  quarter  after  \%  o'clock 
on  Tuesday  nisht,  or  rather  Wednesday  morn- 
ine,  we  heara  the  mob  coming  up  the  ^t 
side  of  Bloomsbuiy-square. 

Where  were  you? — ^In  my  lord's  house. 
They  then  began  to  break  the  windows  in  the 
dinins  parlour  of  the  house.  Lady  Mansfield 
and  £e  ladies  came  downstairs.  I  conducted 
lady  Mansfield  to  lincolnVinn-fields,  and  left 
her  in  a  house  there.  I  instantly  letumedy 
knowing  there  was  a  detachment  of  the 
guards  in  the  square  in  order  to  make  them 
act  and  save  the  h6use.  I  found  the  officer 
at  the  head  of  his  detachment  in  the  square 
at  his  lordship's  house.  I  applied  to  him  to 
enter  the  house  with  his  men ;  he  told  me 
that  the  justice?  of  the  peace  had  all  nm 
away,  and  that  he  would  not  and  could  not 
act  without  the  civil  magistrate.  I  had  some 
warm  words  with  him,  pretty  high,  but  he  in- 
sisted upon  not  acting  without  the  civil  ma- 
gistrate.  The  mob  heard  me  talking  in  this 
manner,  they  seized  me  and  dragged  me  to-» 
wards  the  fire ;  there  were  two  or  three  fires 
then  near  lord  Mansfield's  house,  and  they 
threatened  to  throw  me  on  the  fire ;  one  of 
the  people  behind  called  out  to  me,  '^Maskall 
will  protect  you,  call  to  him ;  there  he  is  vciy 
active." 

Counselor  the  Pritoner.  You  know  very 
well  Uiat  you  are  not  to  give  an  account,  par- 
ticularly in  the  case  where  a  man's  life  b  at 
stake,  which  is  not  evidence. 

Sir  T^miu  Milk,  I  looked  for  hin^.  Some 
gentlemen  interfered  and  rescued  me  finoin 
me  hands  of  the  mob ;  at  that  time  I  looked 
and  saw  the  prisoner  at  a  good  distance  firom 
me,  beyond  all  the  fires;  they  happened  at 
that  time  to  be  bringing  out  lord  Mansfield's 
gowns  and  wigs,  wnen  the  prisoner  with 
others,  upon  th^  things  being  thrown  into 
the  fire,  huzzaed  and  cried  out,  **  No  Popcy  !• 
He  had  a  blue  cockade  in  his  hat,  I  after- 
wards went  to  two  or  three  streets  in  the 
neighbourhood  where  I  was  told  anv  justice^ 
of  the  peace  lived,  which  might  take  me  up 
near  half  an  hour,  i^nd  carried  it  as  near  aa  I  can 
guess  to  a  quarter  or  half  an  hour  after  one, 
when  I  returned.  I  found  no  justice  at  home 
any  where.  I  returned  again,  and  they  had 
th^  got  into  the  library ;  there  were  five  or 
six  coming  out  at  a  time,  with  papers  and 
parchments  and  books  in  their  hands;  at  that 
time  I.  saw  the  prisoner  upon  the  upper  step 
of  lord  Mansfield's  house. 

Where  were  you? — In  the  square.  I  tried 
to  make  a  dasn  to  get  round  the  fires,  as  I 
could  not  go  between  them,  and  to  get  upon 
the  top  of  the  stairs,  m  order  to  expostuiale 


665] 


Trial  ofH.  J.  Mathdl. 


A.  D.  1780. 


[666 


with  them  once  more  about  the  papers  and 
the  books. 

I  do  not  recollect  that  you  mentioned  any 
expostulation  with  them  before? — ^I  did  speak 
to  several  of  them  before. 

Not  to  the  prisoner? — ^Not  to  him;  I 
meant  to  expostulate  with  the  prisoner  at  that 
time. 

Countel  for  the  Pritoner,  You  said  *  with 
them  ?' — ^With  him  I  mean* 

Court.  You  said  ^  expostulate  whh  them 
once  more'  ? — I  did  at  first,  upon  seeing  him, 
mean  to  call  out  to  him  to  protect  me ;  three 
or  four  of  them,  who  were  pret^  well  dressed 
men,  and  whose  faces  I  should  know,  if  I 
were  to  see  them  again,  laid  hold  of  me  and 
advised  me  "  not  to  go  a  step  further, 
for  otherwise  I  should  be  tnrow;i  into  the  fire 
or  into' the  area,  for  they  had  marked  me,  and 
were  determined  to  do  it."  I  then  thought  it 
more  prudent  to  leave  them,  and  I  never  saw 
the  prisoner  after  that  to  my  recollection.  I 
went  down  to  the  secretary  of  state's  office  to 
know  whether  there  existed  any  civil  magis- 
strate ;  and  I  came  back  again  about  a  little 
before  three,  and  I  then  looked  round  for  the 
prisoner,  but  I  did  not  see  any  thing  of  him. 

You  say  you  saw  the  prisoner  upon  lord 
Mansfield's  steps  ? — I  did. 

Did  you  either  hear  him  say  any  thing,  or 
see  him  do  any  thing  ? — ^I  did  look,  and  I  can- 
not, in  my  conscience,  swear  that  I  saw  any 
thing  in  his  hand ;  but  there  was  an  activity 
aboi4  him ;  they  were  passing  him  with  pa- 
pers and  books  in  abundance. 

I  ask  you,  rather  for  form's  sake  than  any 
thing  else^  to  describe  to  my  lord  and  the 
juj^  the  situation  in  which  this  house  was 
left  by  the  mob  ? — I  was  there  all  the  night, 
excepting  those  times  I  mentioned,  when  I 
went  away:  I  left  it  at  six  o'clock  in  the 
morning,  when  the  roof  fell  in. 

What  did  they  pull  down? — They  threw 
out  pictures ;  they  first  emptied  one  n>om, 
then  another  room;  when  I  came 'back  at 
three  o'dock,  I  did  not  conceive  them  to  be 
the  same  mob  I  left;  they  seemed  to  have 
changed  their  complexion,  they  did  not  seem 
to  be  so  well  dressed. 

In  fact,  the  house  was  totally  demolished; 
except  the  bare  walls  ? — Yes. 

Was  the  wainscoting  demolished? — ^Yes, 
every  thing.  I  went  into  the  house  a  quar- 
ter after  three  o'clock,  then  there  were  fiires  in 
three  or  four  of  the  apartments. 

Crosi'Examination, 

When  you  came  back,  they  seemed,  you 
say,  to  be  another  mob  ? — ^Yes. 

What  time  was  it  when  you  returned  from 
conducting  lady  Mansfield  to  linooln's-inn- 
fields  ? — I  think  about  half  an  hour ;  I  walked 
with  her  down,  and  made  all  the  haste  I 
could  back. 

It  was  ai\er  twelve  o'clock  when  you  con- 
diipted  her  ladyship  out  of  the  hooee  ?— Yes, 
f  quarter  after  twelve. 


When  was  it  that  the  windows  of  the  par- 
lour were  broke;  what  time  was  that?— I 
think  that  mieht  be  about  a  quarter  after 
twelve  o'clock,  before  I  left  the  house. 

What  time  was  it  that  ^u  had  the  conver- 
sation with  the  officer  of  the  guards? — Im- 
mediately upon  my  return. 

How  long  might  that  conversation  last  ?— 
A  few  minutes. 

How  long  had  you  been  kept  by  the  mob 
when  you  were  seized  and  dragged  in  the 
manner  you  have  described  ? — Two  or  three 
minutes  probably ;  'they  had  time  to  drag  me 
about,  and  tear  my  coat  off  my  back. 

Can  you  describe  what  time  that  was  when 
the  person  called  out,  <  there  is  Maskall,  call 
to  him  for  assistance?* — ^About  three  quarters 
after  twelve  o'clock. 

It  was  that  when  you  returned  ? — ^It  might 
be  a  few  minutes  more. 

As  nearly  as  you  can,  what  time  was  it  that 
you  heard  that  man  call  out  to  you  to  c^  to 
Maskall  to  protect  you  ? — Before  one  o'clock. 

At  that  time  he  was  at  a  considerable  dis- 
tance from  you? — Such  as  the  distance  of 
three  or  four  fires. 

What  distance  might  that  be  ?— The  breadth 
of  a  house. 

That  is  very  indetenninate  ?»Seven  <Mr 
eight  yards. 

After  this  you  were  rescued? — I  was. 

Then  you  went  in  search  of  magistrates  in 
order  to  protect  the  house? — I  did. 

How  long  might  you  be  absent  upon  that? 
— ^Halfanhour. 

Then  this  brings  you  to  a  quarter  after  one 
o'clock,  or  more  ? — A  quarter,  or  near  half  an 
hour  after  one  when  I  retuhied. 

When  you  returned,  was  that  the  first  time 
you  took  notice  of  Mr.  Maskall's  being  upon 
the  steps  ? — It  was. 

About  half  after  one  o'clock? — ^Yes. 

Did  you  see  any  body  else  upon  the 
steps  besides  Maskall? — Sieveral  with  blue 
cockades. 

Was  there  any  body  that  you  knew? — ^No, 
not  one. 

You  say  you  had  seen  Ufaskall  before? — 
Yes,  I  have  seen  him  many  times ;  I  knew 
him  by  sight. 

Have  you  e\er  been  in  company  with  him  ? 
— ^Never;  I  can  tell  you  how  I  know  him  by 
sight;  I  lived  in  his  neighbourhood  six  or 
seven  years;  I  have  a  house  in  Poland- 
street;  he  lives  not  a  mat  distance^  firom 
that;  I  used  to  pass  his  ooor  five  or  six  times 
in  a  week,  and  I  have  seen  him  in  his  shop 
freauently. 

You  have,  however,  often  seen  him  before? 
— A  hundred  times. 

How  came  you  then  to  go  to  the  prison  to 
see  Mr.  Maskall.  before  you  went  before  the 
grand  jury? — I  nad  an  order  to  some  other 
people,  and  therefore  I  went  in. 
.  Whom  did  you  cany  with  you  ? — ^I  did  not 
carry  any  body. 

You  tiad  an  Older  to  carry  other  people  ?-« 


•67] 


20  GEORGE  III.  Proceedings  relative  to  ihet  Riots  :^  [668 


My  lord's'  servnats,  who  went  without  me ;  I 
happened  to  t>e  out  of  town,  and  they  went 
without  me.  • 

Why  did  you  go  ?— To  satisfy  myself. 

Then  you  were  not  satisfied  before? — I  was 
satisfied  before  perfectly. 

You  said  you  went  there  to  satisfy  yourself ; 
if  you  were  satisfied  before,  why  did  you  go 
there,  the  intention  of  going  down  was  to  be 
satisfied,  whether  it  was  Mr.  Maskall  or  not  ? 
^I  had  not  seen  Mr.  Maskall  for  two  or  three 
years,  not  since  I  left  that  neighbourhood. 

You  were  not  satisfied  before  you  went 
down  ? — ^I  was  perfectly  satisfied. 

Why  did  you  go  then ;  what  was  the  view 
with  which  you.  went  ?— That  is  a  question  I 
do  not  see  any  necessity  for  answering. 

You  can  have  no  objection  to  answer  why 
you  went  there?— I  had  no  kind  of  view  in 
going  there,  I  had  an  order  to  carry  my  lord's 
servantS|  and  they  went  with  some   other 

Older. 

Then  you  went  without  these  people,  what 
was  your  motive  for  going  there  ? — ^It  being  in 
the  night,  I  might  have  occasion  to  go  to  sa- 
tisfy myself  that  it  was  the  man. 

Then  you  went  to  be  satisfied,  not  being 
satisfied  before  ?— I  was  perfectly  satisfied  be- 
fore. 1  had  not  seen  him  for  some  years^  and 
there  might  perhaps  be  doubts. 

Had  you  any  doubts  ?^n  my  conscience  I 
cannot  say  I  had  a  doubt. 

Why  might  there  be  doubts  if  you  had 
none?— Yes»  in  the  night,  and  in  a  tumult 
of  that  sort,  it  is  very  reasonable  to  sup- 
pose so.  •  ./.as 

And  you  went  down  there  to  be  satisfied  ? 
—I  went  there  to  satisfy  myself. 

I  wish  to  know  whether  you  were  an  object 
of  an  indictment  for  an  assault  some  tune 
ago? 

Counsel jfhr  the  Crown,  Are  we  cone  here 
to  try  ao^  indictment  for  an  assault? 

Cowi.  No :  I  was  going  to  stop  the  com^ 
sel  for  the  prisoner,  if  he  had  not  stopped 
himself,  when  he  w^  enK|uifftng  the  private 
situation  of  the  last  witness  with  his  wife. 

Counsel  for  the  Priiomer.  My  lord,  I  meant 
io  sek  whether  sir  Thomas  Mills  had  not  been 
indicted  for  an  assault,  that  he  had  been  ac- 
qiuMed,  ttod  whether  he  had  not  made  an 
affidavit  which  is  the  subject  of  an  indict- 
neikt? 

Cowi,  A  witness  must  be  in  a  dreadful 
wluatioii  if  you  can  examine  into  a  pmate 
Act  tebtive  to  him,  which  he  knowing  na* 
thing  of  beibre,  eannet  dispmvc.  You  ma^ 
imp^u^  any  man's  character  bv  calling  wH- 
nettes  to  his  geneial  chameter,  out  you  can- 
not enquire  into  particular  fiicks. 

Cmnseifor  the  Fruoner,  When  was  it  you 
fint  made  your  evidence  known? — A,  Fie- 
quently  to  my  private  firlendB. 

When  was  it  you  first  menidoned  this  ? — 
The  very  day  after ;  I  did  not  go  to  bed  that 
nisht. 

Did  you  go  helbn  any  magi8trale?-TNo,  I 


did  not  choose  that;  it  was  with  difficulty  L 
wais  brought  here.  I  was  pressed.  I  did,  not 
make  up  my  mind  about  coming  here  till 
very  lately. 

Not  till  you  went  before  the  grand  jury  ? — 
Not  till  I  went  before  the  grand  jury. 

That  was  the  day  you  went  to  see  Mr. 
Maskall  ? — I  am  not  perfectly  sure  of  that 

Countdfer  the  Crown,  You  stated  that 
you  had  an  order  to  «i  to  the  prison  whexB 
the  prisoner  was  confined,  for  the  purpose  of 
seeing  him  ?-^^.  Yes. 

Was  it  in  consequence  ofthat  order  or  re- 
quest that  you  went  ?— -I  asked  for  the  order 
of  admission  for  lord  Mansfield's  servants. 
It  was  to  admit  the  bearer^  or  some  such 
thing. 

Counsel  for  the  Pritoner,  Were  any  of  lord 
Mansfield^  servants  present  during  the  time 
you  say  you  saw  Mr.  Maskall  upon  the  steps  ? 
A,  No,  not  with  me,  I  believe.  But  the  first 
time  I  saw  him  there  were,  and  there  were 
some  about  me  at  the  time  the  mob  laid  hold 
of  me. 

At  Ae  time  you  say  you  saw  Mr.  Maskall 
on  the  steps  were  they  near  you  ? — ^I  do  not 
recollect  that  they  were. 

When  were  they  with  you  before? — I 
spoke  to  them  freqtiently  in  the  course  of  the 
evening. 

You  never  saw  any  of  lord  Mansfield's  ser- 
vants i^ler  that? — Yesj  I  saw  them  till  six  in 
the  morning  in  the  square  and  about. 

Dki  you  see  them  any  ways  near  you  at  the 
time  you  describe  to  have  seen  Mr.  Maskall } 
— I  do  not  recollect  that. 

Counsel  for  the  Crown.  Whether  you  have 
not  related,  and  particularly  to  Mr.  Chamber-- 
layne,  this  story,  and  the  recollection  of  the 
prisoner  before  you  saw  him  in  prison  ?— ^. 
Yes. 

Counsel  for  the  Prisoner.  The  witness's 
conversation  with  Mr.  Chamberlayne  is  not» 
evidence. 

Counsel  for  the  Crown,  Were  ^ou  or  not 
desired  by  any  body  to  go  to  the  prison  to  see 
the  prisoner  ? — A,  I  am  not  sure  whether  Mr. 
Chamberlayne  desired  me  to  go ;  I  think  he 
did. 

Did  he  or  not  give  you  any  note  ?— He  gav# 
me  a  note. 

And  in  consequenice  of  that|  after  you  had 
t»ld  him  yoitf  story,  did  you  go  to  see  the  pri- 
soner?— I  did. 

Court.  You  mentioned  that  they  were 
bringing  out  lord  Mansfield's  gown  and  wif 
wheu  the  prisoner,  with  others,  huszaed,  and 
cried  out  <  No  Popery ?'-—ii.  Yes. 

Wtecabouts  was  the  prisoner  tt^n  stand- 
ing?—J  was  at  the  comer  of  the  square,  1 
the  Goniev  of  lord  Mansfield*s  house ;  the  pri- 
soner wa&  about  eight  or  nine  yards  from  me 
towards  Southampton-buildings. 

How  ftr  fi»m  the  houaaJ—Four  or  five 
yards  in  fifont  of  the  house,  and  sevea  oreighl 
yards  distance  from  mcu 

I 


669] 


Trial  of  H.  J.  MasJcaV. 


A.  D.  1780. 


William  Grove  sworn. 


You  are  lord  MansfiebVs  porter  ? — I  am. 

Do  vou  remember  being  in  the  house, 
■when  tne  mob  came  there  ? — ^Yes. 

About  what  time  did  they  come  ? — ^As  far 
te  I  can  recollect  between  twelve  and  one. 

Did  any  of  them  get  into  the  house? — 
They  did. 

By  what  means? — They  first  broke  the 
windows.  When  they  broke  them,  I  chained 
lip  the  door,  to  keep  them  out  as  long  as  I 
could.  They  forced  the  door  open  with  iron 
bars,  and  came  in  that  way. 

When  they  got  into  the  house,  what  did 
they  do  ? — ^T&ey  began  throwing  out  the  fur- 
niture. 

Did  they  do  any  thing  to  the  house? — 
After  the  ftimiture  was  thrown  out,  I  saw 
them  tear  down  the  window-shutters. 

When  did  you  quit  the  house  ?— I  believe 
between  four  and  five  o'clock. 

During  the  time  you  were  there,  besides 
the  ftirmture  being  thrown  out,  was  any  thing 
else  done? — Some  of  the  iron  rails  were 
pulled  up. 

Was  any  thing  done  to  the  inside  of  the 
house,  the  wainscottingj,  and  so  on  ? — I  saw 
only  the  shutters  pullea  down,  I  did  not  take 
any  particular  notice  afterwards.  The  door 
was  split  down. 

What  became  of  the  door  posts  ? — ^I  did 
not  take  any  particular  notice  about  the  door 
posts.    The  aoor  was  taken  down. 

What  condition  was  the  house  in  in  the 
morning  ? — ^Totally  burnt. 

CroU'Exominatian, 

Whether  you  happened  to  be  upon  the 
steps  at  any  part  of  the  time  ? — I  was  some 
part  of  the  time. 

Did  you  sec  Mr.  Maskall  there? — No,  I 
did  not.  I  never  saw  ]pam  till  I  saw  him  at 
the  office  in  Bow-street. 

What  time  were  you  upon  the  steps? — I 
think  between  one  and  two. 

And  you  saw  nothing  of  Mr.  Maskall.' — 
No. 

Counsel  for  the  Crown.  Was  this  before 
they  broke  into  the  house  ? — A.  It  was  after 
they  broke  into  the  house. 

Was  there  any  body  upon  the  steps  at  that 
time  but  yourself? — 1  saw  Mr.  Loton  there. 

Did  you  see  any  people  there  whom  you 
did  not  know  ? — ^There  were  a  great  many  of 
the  mob  about  the  door  then. 

But  upon  the  steps  ? — ^Yes ;  several  of  them 
were  talking  to  Mr.  Loton. 

Counsel  for  the  Prisoner,  I  suppose  you 
were  backward  and  forwards  pretty  often  in 
the  night? — A.  Yes,  to  get  out  things;  I 
did  not  take  any  particular  notice  of  any  oody. 

You  saw  the  fires  ? — I  did. 

You  saw  the  people,  who  were  standing 
about  the  fires  ? — Yes ;  but  not  to  know  any 
of  them. 

What  time  might  it  be,  before  theyVgan 


[67© 
it  was  about 


to  bum  the  house  ?^I  think 
four  o'clock. 

Counsel  for  the  Crown,  You  were  upon  the 
steps  you  say  ? — A,    I  was. 

You  are  not  very  correct  as  to  the  time  ?— 
Yes. 

When  you  were  upon  the  steps,  Mr.  Loton 
was  there  ?— Yes,  I  remember  his  being  upon 
the  steps  talking  to  the  mob  who  were  about 
the  house. 

Were  any  of  them  in  the  house  at  that 
time  ? — Yes,  several  in  different  rooms. 

Did  you  observe  any  thing  particuhu*  that 
they  were  about  ?— I  saw  them  bring  a  large 
picture  out  of  the  parlour,  which  was  sir  Tho- 
mas Mills's  picture. 

Did  you  observe  any  thing  else  particular 
at  the  time  you  were  upon  ^e  steps? — It 
was  in  such  a  confusion,  that  I  caiinot  recoU 
lect. 

Counsel  for  the  Prisoner.  I  think  you  said 
you  believed  it  was  between  one  and  two  ? — 
A,    It  might  be  so,  but  I  will  not  be  certain. 

Court,    Is  not  Molloy  here  ? 

Counsel  for  the  Crown,    I  believe  he  is. 

Counsel  for  the  Prisoner,  His  name  is  upon 
the  back  of  the  indictment. 

Court  to  the  Counsel  for  the  Crown.  Do  not 
you  mean  to  examine  Molloy  ? 

Counsel  for  the  Crown,  We  do  not  mean 
to  examine  him ;  he  is  here,  I  imderstand,  if 
thev  please  to  examine  him. 

Qnmsel  for  the  Prisoner.  I  beg  it  may  be 
known  he  is  not  subpoenaed  by  us. 

Court,  Mr.  Maskall,  the  counsel  for*  the 
prosecution  have  finished  their  case,  and  exa- 
mined all  the  witnesses  they  propose  to  exa- 
mine, have  you  any  thing  that  you  choose  to 
say  for  yourself,  or  any  witnesses  which  you 
choose  to  have  called  and  examined  on  your 
part? 

Prisoner.  Yes,  my  lord,  I  have  something 
to  say  for  myself,  and  some  witnesses  to  calL 

Prisoner's  Defence. 

My  lord,  and  gentlemen  of  the  jury;  per- 
mit me  to  implore  your  patient  ana  serious 
attention,  while  I  defend  myself  against  a 
charge,  which  I  am  called  upon  to  defend 
with  my  life.  The  humanity  of  the  law  pr&- 
simies  every  man  to  be  innocent,  and  the  good 
sense  of  the  jury  will  suppose  there  must  be 
some  adequate  Inducement  for  the  commis- 
sion of  a  crime ;  when  you  consider  that  my 
profession  supports  me  in  affluence,  and  that 
my  character  nas  been  irreproachable,  I  trust 
you  will  expect  the  clearest  and  most  aecishre 
testimony  in  support  of  so  atrocious  and  so 
incredible  a  charg^e,  as  having  incited  and 
abetted  the  mob  in  the  destruction  of  lord 
Mansfield's  property.  I  defy  my  bitterest 
enemy,  I  call  upon  the  most  profligate  of  my 
accusers,  to  assign  a  reason  for  such  conduct ! 
WiU  you  then,  my  lord  and  gentlemen  of  the 
jury,  suppose,  that  I,  who  have  lived  hitherto 
neither  accused  nor  suspected  of  any  criminal 


671] 


20  GEORGE  lit.  Proceedings  retaltve  to  the  Kwts .«—         [j573 


or  even  dishonest  action,  should  assodste 
with  boys,  pickpockets,  and  the  lowest  dregs 
of  the  people,  and  in  the  face  of  my  neign- 
hours  and  acquaintance,  in  a  place  where  I 
am  particulany  and  almost  universally  known, 
that  I  should  without  any  possible  motive,  be 
guilty  of  so  horrid  a  crime,  although  not  one 
of  these  neighbours  appear  against  me ;  on 
the  contrary,  I  shall  produce  many  of  them, 
who  are  house-keepers,  and  persons  of  good 
vuredit,  whose  testimony  wiU  flatly  contradict 
the  evidence  given  by  the  witnesses  for  the 
prosecution. 

It  is  extraordinary  that  from  the  7th  to  the 
17th  of  June,  Mr.  Ingram  should  have  con- 
cealed my  supposed  guilt,  which  it  was  so 
much  his  interest  to  have  discovered  ;  and 
that  ten  days  should  have  elapsed  before  he 
^ve  his  information.  God  forbid  that  I  should 
insinuate  that  the  reward  of  50/.  could  have 
any  influence  on  the  evidence  of  any  honest 
man  however  poor,  however  distressed ;  but 
when  infamy  is  united  with  poverty,  such  a 
sum  carries  with  it  irresistible  temptation.  It 
is  to  me  a  painful  task  to  expose  tne  charac- 
ters of  these  witnesses,  though  they  have 
been  unfeeling  enough  to  attack  upon  false 
grounds,  not  only  my  character  but  my  life. 
In  justice,  therefore,  to  my  other  witnesses^ 
and  to  relieve  you  from  any  difficulty  in  de- 
termining to  whom  you  should  sive  credit,  I 
ought  and  doubt  not  to  be  able  by  good  evi- 
dence to  prove,  that  the  witnesses  for  the 
prosecution  are  wortliy  of  no  credit.  I  will 
shew  you  by  the  most  undeniable  testimony, 
that  Ingram  has  been  a  bankrupt,  that  he 
has  been  discharged  by  an  act  of  insolvency, 
that  he  is  now  insolvent,  and  that  his  word 
and  his  conduct  are  as  exceptionable  as  his 
credit.  It  is  very  singular  that  Molloy,  who 
was  with  Ingram  the  whole  time,  is  not  called 
by  the  prosecutors  as  a  witness  against  me, 
though  his  evidence  would  be  so  material  in 
the  support  of  Mr.  Ingram,  especially  as  he 
attended  at  the  justices,  when  the  informal 
tion  was  laid  against  me,  and  at  mv  examina- 
tion, besides  his  name  being  on  the  back  of 
the  indictment. 

In  respect  to  sir  Thomas  Mills,  thoush  the 
distress  of  his  circumstances  may  not  oe  in- 
ferior to  Ingram's,  yet  I  mean  not  to  insi- 
nuate that  any  reward  would  influence  his 
testimony^  but  he  may  perhaps  conceive  that 
his  zeal  will  be  the  best  proof  of  his  attach- 
ment and  the  best  road  to  his  preferment.  It 
is  possible  that  his  wishes  ma^  have  led  him 
into  error,  that  he  really  believes  ^rae  to  be 
the  person,  whom  he  has  mistaken  for  ano- 
ther. Sir  Thomas  Mills  well  knows,  that 
this  is  not  the  first  time  in  which  he  has  un- 
fortunately been  mistaken  upon  his  oath,  to 
say  no  worse  of  it;  for  I  have  now  in  my 
hands  an  affidavit  of  his  which  was  positively 
contradicted  by  five  witnesses  upon  oath,  and 
who  are  now  attending  to  contradict  him 
again. 

Court.    I  am  sorry;  in  the  situation  you 


stand  in,  to  interrupt  you ;  it  is  indeed  very 
painful  to  me,  but  as  what  you  oflfer  cannot 
DO  admitted  in  evidence,  iris  my  duty  not  to 
permit  you  to  state  it.  I  am  very  soiry  to  be 
obliged  to  interrupt  you. 

Priioner.  I,  with  the  greatest  submission, 
hear  and  attend  to  what  your  lordship  ia 
pleased  to  give  me  in  instruction ;  but  when 
my  life  is  at  stake,  and  I  have  now  an  affida- 
vit of  that  gentleman's  in  my  pocket,  contra- 
dicted by  five  positive  witnesses,  three  of 
whom  are  now  attending,  I  trust  your  lordship 
will  permit  that  to  be  given  in  evidence. 

Court,  I  am  sure  you  would  not,  upon  re- 
collection,  wish  your  acquittal  should  be  at- 
attended  with  the  admission  of  improper  evi- 
dence. 

Prisoner,  Reflect  for  a  moment  on  the^im- 
probability  of  the  charge  ;  recollect  the  cha- 
racter of  the  persons  whose  interest  it  is  to 
prove  it,  and  consider  the  degree  of  foUv  im- 
puted to  me  by  it,  and  then  let  me  ask  you 
whether  in  your  consciences  you  believe  me 
guilty :  I  speak  with  boldness,  for  I  am  armed 
with  innocence.  I  dare  therefore  speak  the 
language  of  truth;  happilv  for  me,  provi- 
dentially I  may  say,  for  the  Ahnighty  sUU 
protects  the  innocent,  I  can  produce  my  ser- 
vants and  my  neighbours,  to  prove  that  I  was 
in  my  own  house  m  Oxford-street,  when  I  first 
heard  of  the  fire,  with  my  niriitcap  and  slip- 
pers on ;  that  I  expressed  much  concern  at  it ; 
that  it  was  near  one  o'clock  when  I  lei^  my 
house;  that  in  coming  into  Bloomsbury- 
square,  for  I  admit  I  was  there,  I  met  with 
two  acquaintances,  with,  or  near,  whom  I 
stood  about  an  hour  close  to  the  duke  of  Bed- 
ford's gate :  I  continued  a  quiet  and  peaceable  ^ 
spectator  during  all  the  time  I  staid  there ; 
and  so  far  from  stimulaUnz  the  mob,  I  de- 
clare solemnly  I  frequentlv  lamented  the  mis- 
chief they  were  jdoing ;  this  I  can  prove  by 
several  housekeepers  and  other  persons  of 
credit,  who,  thank  God,  accidentally  happened 
to  be  there,  and  saw  me  at  different  periods 
till  I  returned  home.  I  shall  likewise  call 
other  witnesses  of  equal  credit,  who  know  me, 
to  prove  that  they,  from  their  situation  near 
lord  Mansfield's  house,  and  the  notice  thev 
took  of  the  rioters,  must  have  observed  me  (f 
that,  which  is  imputed  to  me,  had  been  true ; 
but  that  on  the  contrary  thev  did  not  even  see 
me,  it  was  indeed  impossible  they  should; 
for  I  was  at  a  distance  from  the  house,  and 
from  every  person  who  was  in  the  least  con- 
cerned in  the  outra^s  committing  there.  On 
my  roturu  home,  between  two  and  three 
o'clock,  mv  servants  will  testify  I  spoke  of  the 
mob  with  horror,  and  of  the  mischief  they  had 
done  with  unfeigned  concern.  When  you 
have  heard  all  this  evidence,  I  am  confident 
vou  will  not  believe  that  I  am  guilty  of  thb 
horrid  oflence;  you  will  not  withhold  your 
credit  to  the  great  number  of  witnesses,  all 
of  unblemishS  character^  and  most  of  them 
housekeepers  living  in  the  neighbourhood, 
and  who  can  have  no  other  interest  in  the 


675] 


Tfial^H.J.MaaalL 


A.  D.  ITM. 


[874 


efpnt  of  Hur  ImsiiMsa  liian  the  bewtlelt  8»- 
tafacdpn  of  protoctuic  ianoeefioe  from  that 
-piaaAmaAwbkh  guSl  alone  deserreay  and 
you  will  not,  in  preference  to  fhem,  impli- 
«t]y  believe  witnesses  wbose  characters  are 
exceedin^y  suspidouSy  and  whose  testimony 
is  interested,  ror^e  me,  my  lord,  and  gen- 
tlemen, if  I  detain  Toa  for  a  moment  longjer, 
but  my  anxiety,  my  lord,  to  vindicate  my  m- 
jured  reputation  induces  me  to. trouble  you 
with  some  witnesses  who  will  tell  you  who 
and  what  I  am;  who  have  known  me  ibr 
many  jrears,  who  have  honoured  me  witl^ 
their  finend^p,  and  who,  I  trust,  will  declare 
I  have  not  di^aoed  that  friendship.  To 
them  I  beg  leave  to  appeal  for  the  integrity  of 
my  heart  and  the  uprightness  of  my  c^iuiuct ; 
to  you,  gentlemen,  I  most  cheerfully  submit 
my  fortune,  my  character,  and  my  life;  and  I 
do  not  entertam  a  doubt  but  that  your  verdict 
will  jg;ive  perfect  satisfaction  to  every  man 
wliois  notmterested  in  n^  death. 


JRvons  sworn. 


Tou  are  a  servant,  I  believe,  of  Mr.  Maa- 
kaU?— Yes. 

Do  yoQ  remember  the  evening  of  the  fire 
al  lord  MansBeld's  the  6th  of  June?— Yes. 

Was  your  master  at  home  that  evening  ? — 
He  was  till  half  past  twelve  o'clock. 
.  At  that  time  how  was  he  dressed^  as  aman 
going  out  or  going  to  bed  i — I  had  fetched  my 
master's  slippers  and  night-cap  for  him  to  go 
to  bed. 

How  happened  it  he  did  not  go  to  bed  ? — ^I 
went  into  the  street,  enquiring  where  those 
fires  were  ?  Thev  told  me  at  lora  Mansfield's. 
I  mn  in  and  told  my  master  that  lord  Mans- 
field's house  was  on  fire. 
.  Where  does  your  master  live  ? — ^In  Oxford- 
street,  No.  57. 

VfhaX  part  of  Oxford-street  is  it?-— Two 
doors  firom  B^mer^s-street. 

What  time  will  it  take  to  walk  fix>m  your 
master's  to  Bloomsbury-smiare ;  did  you  ever 
happen  to  walk  that  wa^^r — No,  therefore  I 
cannot  say;  but  I  imagine  my  master  could 
not  be  above  twenty  minutes.  I  told  my  mas- 
ter I  heard  lord  Mansfield's  bouse  was  on  fire-; 
bis  answer  was  '  God  forbid !'  He  ran  out 
into  the  street  and  desired  me  to  fetch  him 
his  g^t  coat,  for,  he  said,  he  had  an  ac- 
quaiiltance  in  RusseU-street,  and  he  would  see 
if  all  was  safe. 

Was  any  one  in  the  house  at  the  lime  this 
eonversatiiMi  passed  between-  you  and  your 
master  ? — No ;  they  were  all  at  the  door. 

Who  ?^Mr.  Nichob  and  WiiUam  Ellis 
were  at  the  door. 

Are  those  servants  in  your  house? — ^The 
Journeyman  b  Mr.  Nichols,  the  porter  is 
WiUiam  Ellis. 

Were  any  of  your  neighbours  in  the  street 
at  that  time,  that  you  knew,  who  spoke  to 
f0OT  master  ?— Yes. 

:  ^ho  were  they  ?— Mrs.  Sawyer  was  at  her 
door ;  she  lives  next  door  to  iny  master. ' 

VOL.  XXI. 


i  DidyoQ  see  Mrs.  Smpson  and  Mis,  Hough 
and  her  daughter? — ^Yes;  they  came  up  to 
soon  after. 

Did  they  pass,  or  converse  with  your  mas- 
ter before  they  came  up  to  you? — ^They  told 
me  they  did. 

At  that  time  was  your  master  gone? — ^He 
was. 

At  what  time  did  your  master  leave  liis 
house  ? — ^As  near  as  I  can  guess,  about  half 
past  twelve  o'ck>ck. 

Can  you  tell  when  he  returned  again  to 
his  house  ?-^At  half  past  two;  the  watch 
were  going  half  past  two  as  I  stood  upon  the 
stairs  with  a  candle  to  light  my  master  to 
bed. 

Were  the  journeyman  and  porter  at  home 
when  he  came  home  ? — They  were  just  gone 
to  bed ;  but  the  porter  got  out  of  bed  to  open 
the  door,  and  he  let  my  master  in! 

Did  your  master  tell  you  when  he  came 
home  whether  there  had  been  a  fire  at  lord 
Mansfield's,  or  what  he  had  seen  f — ^I  asked 
my  master :  he  said  yes,  "  it  was  the  hor« 
ridest  sight  he  had  ever  seen  in  his  life,  and 
the  most  awefiillest  thing  he  ever  met  with, 
and  it  chilled  his  blood  in  him." 

CroM-ejomtfurtiOfi. 

You  are  a  servant  maid  ?— Yes. 

He  went  out  in  a  great  huny  ?-^Ye6. 

Had  he  his  slippers  on? — ^No.  He  was 
unbuckling  his  shoes;  he  buckled  ihem  again 
and  went  out  immediately., 

Did  he  take  up  any  nat  that  was  in  the 
way  ?— He  sent  me  for  his  great  coat  and  hia 
hat 

The  hat  had  no  cockade  in  it?— I  saw 
none. 

It  had  no  cockade  in  it  when  it  canie. 
home  ? — I  believe  he  left  it  upon  the  counter 
when  he  came  in.  I  did  not  see  it. 

He  was  not  called  up  again  Uiat  night,  was 
he  ? — He  was  about  five  o'clock,  as  near  aa  I 
can  guess. 

Did  he  tell  you  what  they  had  done  at 
lord  Mansfield's  tliat  shocked  him  so  much  ? 
— ^He  said  ^  they  had  burnt  very  fijie  furni- 
ture/ 

Did  he  tell  you  any  thii^  else  ?-7No,  no- 
thing more. 

^Maitkew  YFood  sworn. 

What  trade  are  you  ?— A  coachmaker. 

Where  do  you  hve  ?— In  Dean-street,  Ox- 
ford-road. 

Do  you  remember  seeing  any  thine  of  Mr* 
Maskall  on  the  Tuesday  wnen  the  fire  hap« 
pened  at  lord  Mansfielas  ? — ^Yes,  I  do. 

What  passed  between  you  and  Mr..  Maa- 
kail  at  that  time  ? — ^When  I  went  to  the  fire 
it  might  be  about  half  after  one ;  I  stopped 
there  about  ten  minutes. 

Where  did  you  first  see  Mr.  Maskall  ?— At 
about  twelve  at  nieht  at  his  own  house;  ha 
came  out  and  said,  ''Wood,  where  do  you 
think  the  fire  is?"  I  said.  '<  Sir,  some  s«r  it 

ax 


6^^  M  GEORGE  m.  Prooeeiinp  fAxhfoe  to  the  RwU  ,— 

is  at  lord  Mansfield's,  and'  some  say  it  is  at  a 


[676 


when  I  came  home  he  sttd,  **  How  do  you, 

school/*    Said  he,  "Evans,  get  me  my  great  I  Woodr  that  was  att  that  pass^.     I  was 
coat  and  I  will  eo  and  see  where  it  is."    He    talking  to  the  shopman  about  the  distiirbaiiee 


coat,  and  l  win  go 

went  directly ;  in  about  a  quarter  of  an  hour 
aJfter,  or  it  might  be  more,  his  shopman  and 
I  went  there.     When  we  came  to  Russell- 
street,  I  saw  no  disturbance  in  the  least. 
When  I  came  back  to  Great  Russell-street,  I 
saw  a  fire  in  the  square.    There  was  a  fire  at 
a  school,  I  think  it  is  in  Little  Russell-street. 
Whereabouts   in   Little  RusscU-strcet  ? — 
Upon  the  right  hand  of  Great  Russell»street, 
going  from  Tottenham  Court-road  into  the 
square.     Coming  into  Great  Russell-street  I 
saw  a  fire  ih  the  square.    I  said  to  Mr   Ni- 
chols, let  us  go  and  see  whether  this  fire  is  at 
l6rd  Mansfiei(l*s.    We  went  into  the  square. 
I  went  within  the  iron  rails,  the  gate  was 
open,  and  I  walked  there ;  I  mieht  stop  there 
about  a  qiuuter  of  an  hour ;  I  did  not  like  to 
stay  any  longer  for  fear  any  lives  mi^ht  be 
lost.    Coming  home  again.  I  walked  oy  the 
duke  of  Bedford's  deao  wall ;  and  just  by  the 
gate  I  saw  Mr.  Maskall  talking  with  a  gen- 
tleman and  lady  there. 

•  What  time  was  this  ? — It  might  be  a  quarter 
before  two. 

Where  was  it  that  Mr.  Maskall  was  stand- 
'ing  when  you  saw  him  ? — ^There  is  a  gate  in 
the  centre  of  the  dead  wall  at  the  duke  of 
Bedford's,  it  might  be  about  half  way  from 
that  dead  wall,'  or  not  so  much,  to  lord  Mans- 
field's. 

How  long  might  you  observe  him  in  that 
situation  ?-^I  was  with  him  about  a  quarter 
of  an  hour ;  I  had  my  hand  upon  his  shoulder 
while!  was  conversing  with  nim. 
'  And  that,  I  think,  you  said  was  about  a 
quarter  before  two  ? — ^It  might  be  about  two 
n^hen  I  left  him. 

•  What  was  the  behaviour  and  conduct  of 
Mr.  Maskall  during  all  the  time  you  was 
there  ?— Standing  veiy  quietly,  as  far  as  I 
saw ;  all  his  discourse  was  to  this  lady  and 
gentleman. 

Did  you  see  him  do  any  thing,  any  one  act 
whatever,  to  encourage  the  mob? — ^No ;  very 
far  from  any  such  thmg.  I  know  Mr.  Mas- 
kall extremely  well. 

•  Did  you  see  him  do  any  thing  whatever  to 
encourage  them  ? — ^Not  in  the  least. 

If  Mr.  Maskall  had  done  any  thing  to  en- 
courage the  mob,  should  you  have  seen  him  ? 
— Undoubtedly  I  should  have  taken  notice  of 
such  a  thing,  if  I  had  been  by. 

If  any  persons  with  fiags  had  come  up  to 
Inm,  should  you  have  seen  it  ? — Undoubtedly. 

'  If  any  persons  had  come  up  to  take  direc- 
tions from  him,  for  any  part  of  their  conduct, 
of  what  they  were  to  do,  should  not  you  have, 
seen  it? — I  should. 

'  Then  no  such  thing  passed,  did  it? — ^No 
such  thing. 

'  Did  any  thin^drop  from  Mr.  Maskall  upon 
the  occasion  ?— 5^otning  that  I  heard ;  I  can- 
rijort  pretend  to  say  what  the  discourse  was  be- 
tweon  this  gentleman  and  lady  and  him  i  but 


that  md  happened. 

Crosi-Examination. 

When  you  went  away  you  left  him  there  ? 
— ^Yes.  The  watch  was  going  past  two  when 
I  got  home. 

John  Cooper  sworn. 

Where  do  you  live?— In  Qaeen-«treet, 
Bloomsbu^. 

What  are  you  ?— A  cheesemonger. 

Did  you  happen  to  be  in  Bloomsbuiy- 
square  the  nignt  of  the  fire  at  lord  Mans* 
field's  ?— Yes. 

In  what  part  of  the  square  were  you  ? — 
About  five  yards  fiY>m  the  duchess  of  Bed- 
ford's gate. 

Were  you  there  at  one  o'clock  ? — ^I  believe 
I  was,  or  a  little  after ;  it  could  not  be  more 
than  a  quarter  after  one  when  I  came  there. 

How  long  did  you  stay  there  ? — I  was  at 
my  own  house  at  ten  minutes  past  two  ex- 
act^. 

From  the  time  you  came  there  to  the  time 
}rou  went  away  firom  the  square,  did  you  conr- 
tinue  in  that  place  ?— Within  afew  yards  of  it. 

Did  you  see  Mr.  Maskall  there?— YeSyl 
did;  about  five  njinutes  after  I  came  there. 

How  near  did  Mr.  Maskall  stand  to  you  ? — 
When  I  first  saw  him,  he  was  standing  dose' 
behind  me. 

What  was  his  behaviour  at  that  time  ? — 
Very  quiet  and  very  still. 

Are  you  acquainted  with  Mr.  Maskall  ? — ^I 
am  through  business. 

You  know  his   person  perfectly  we!l?-^ 

I  do. 

How  long  did  you  happen  to  keep  your  eye 
upon  Mr.  Maskall  ?— During  the  time  I  was 
there,  I  cannot  say  that  I  was  ever  three  or 
four  minutes  without  having  my  eye  on  him  j 
about  two  minutes  before  I  went  rfway  I  did 
not  see  Mr.  Maskall ;  he  told  me  he  was  go- 
ing home. 

Do  I  understand  you  to  say  that  during 
the  whole  time  that  you  yourself  staid,  which 
was  from  very  soon  after  one  till  near  two  or 
quite  tvro  o'clock,  you  had  not  Mr.  Maskall 
out  of  your  sight  for  above  two  or  three  mi- 
nutes at  a  time  ?— No ;  I  cannot  thiiik  it  was 
more,  for  whenever  I  looked  I  saw  him. 

And  what  was  his  behaviour  ?— Very  quiet ; 
as  quiet  as  any  spectator. 

If  he  liad  behaved  during  any  part  of  that 
time  unlike  a  quiet  inoflfensive  spectator  must 
you  have  seen  it  ? — I  must. 

Did  you  see  any  person  during  that  tmio 
come  up  to  him  with  any  blue  flag,  or  a  flag 
of  any  kind  ?— No ;  t  saw  no  flag. 

Did  you  see  Mr.  Maskall  speak  to  any 
persons  that  were  active  in  the  mob  ?— I  did 

not.  .      .     ^. 

Did  you  see  any  that  were  active  «>  «» 
mob  address  themselves  to  him  ?— No ;  I  di4 
not. 


•W] 


Trial  of  tt.  J.  MitMU. 


A.  D.  178a 


[678 


Did  you  see  Mr.  MukaO  speak  to  any  of 
the  other  speetalors  ?-— Yes.  1  saw  him  speak 
todifierent  people  at  different  times,  but  I 
was  not  near  enough  to  dw-hear  the  con. 
▼ersation. 

But  to  none  ^^ lii  heard  him  speak  that  were 
at  all  in  the  activity  of  the  moo  ? — ^No ;  only 
to  quiet  spectator. 

Did  he  speak  to  you  ? — ^He  did. 

Who  was  with>you  ? — My  wife. 

Did  he  speak  to  both  of  you  ? — ^He  did. 

Where  might  the  soldiers  be  at  that  time  } 
— I  cannot  }St  particular  to  a  few  yards,  but 
they  were  by  tne  sides  of  the  fires  that  were 
lighted. 

Were  the  soldiers  between  the  mob  and 
you  ? — I  was  outside  of  the  spectators. 

What  distance  might  Mr.  Maskall  be  from 
you  at  the  time  you  are  now  speaking  of? — I 
suppose  not  moie  than  five  or  six  yaras.  - 

And  you  saw  the  whole  tenor  of  his  beha- 
viour, (hiring  the  time  he  was  at  the  duke  of 
Bedford's  gate  ?— I  did. 

At  what  time  did  you  first  speak  to  him? 
— ^It  could  not  be  more  than  a  quarter  past 
one.  I  said  what  shocking  work  this  is ;  in 
about  half  a  minute  something  was  thrown 
out  at  the  window.  Mr.  Maslcul  held  up  his 
bands,  and  said,  **  Good  God !  how  shodcing 
it  is  to  see  all  this  fine  furniture  destroyed." 

Were  they  creditable  inoffensive  looking 
people  that  you  saw  him  speak  to? — They 
were. 

Then  upon  the  whole  was  the  tenor  of  Mr. 
Maskall's  behaviour  during  all  that  time  that 
you  saw  him,  iust  the  same  as  your  own, 
your  wife's,  and  every  other  person  you  saw 
there  that  was  inoffensive  ? — It  was. 

What  time  was  it  that  Mr.  Maskall  told 
you  he  was  going  home?-^I  think  it  was 
about  two  o'clock. 

You  think  you  must  have  seen  if  there  was 
any  thine  improper  in  Mr.  Maskall's  conduct 
during  that  time .? — ^I  think  I  must  if  any 
thing  nad  happened  like  it. 

Crois-Examination, 

Did  you  gp  there  out  of  curiosity? — We 
heard  there  was  a  fire  near  our  house,  we 
could  not  go  to  bed  we  were  so  frightened^ 
therefore  I  went  to  see  where  it  was. 

Did  any  body  go  with  you,  besides  Mrs. 
Cooper  ? — ^No. 

Tne  first  place  where  you  saw  Mr.  Maskall 
was  near  the  front  gate  of  the  duchess  of  Bed- 
ford's ?— Yes. 

Nearer  to  the  gate  or  lord  Mansfield's? — 
Nearer  to  lord  Mansfield's. 

You  turned  yourself  towards  lord  Mans- 
field's house  ? — ^Yes. 

And  kept  fixing  your  attention  to  what 
fiaased  there  ? — ^Yes. 

Dkl  you  change  your  place  dunng  the  time 
you  staid? — Not  perhaps  above  two  or  three 
yards  badiwards  and  forwards  upon  that 
spou 


Mr.  Maskall  was,  you  said,  behind  you  at 
first  ? — He  was.     , 

Did  you  converse  with  any  body  besides 
Mr.  Maskall  ?— -No. 

Was  there  any  other  person  that  you  knew 
there  that  you  recollect  ?— Not  anv. 

Did  he  keep  behind  you  all  the  time?^ 
No;  he  was  sometimes  a  few  yards  one  way 
or  the  other,  my  eye  was  generally  upon 
him.;  there  were  not  above  two  or  three  mi* 
nutes,  to  my  knowledge,  that  I  did  not  see 
him. 

How  many  times  did  you  speak  to  him 
while  you  staid  ther^? — I  do  not  recollect 
how  many,  but  what  passed  there  was  la- 
menting the  destruction  of  the  furniture  and 
such  thmgs  as  that. 

Did  you  leave  Mr.  Maskall  there?— He 
said  he  was  going  home  about  five  minutes 
before  we  came  away. 

Will  you  swear  that'  he  went  away  before 
you  ? — He  went  past  us  and  turned  up,  as  if 
going  to  Great  Russell-street ;  when  he  came 
By  he  said,  I  think,  '  I  will  ^  home,'  and  I 
never  saw  him  any  more ;  we  staid  about  five 
minutes  afler  that. 

Which  Great  Russell-street  do  you  niean  ? 
— ^He.  turned  up  towards  the  Museum. 

That  is  the  way  to  Oxford-street,  to  his  own 
house? — It  is. 

Susannah  Cooper  sworn. 

Mr.  Cck>per  is,  I  think,  your  husband  ?— - 
He  is. 

Do  you  remember  at  what  time  in  the 
night  it  was  when  your  husband  and  you  first 
went  into  Bloomwuiy^qiiare? — It  was  one 
o'clock  or  a  little  afler,  to  the  best  of  my 
knowledge. 

Did  you  see  Mr.  Maskall  there? — ^I  saw 
him  there. 

Was  it  soon  after  you  came  into  the  •  square 
that  you  saw  him  there? — ^To  the  bjBSt  of 
my  knowledge,  it  was  about  five .  minutes 
after. 

What  part  of  the  souare  were  you  in  at  the 
time  you  first  saw  Mr.  Maskall?— By  the 
duchess  of  Bedford's  wall  near  to  the  eate. 

Was  it  between  the  gate  and  lord  Mans- 
field's house  ? — ^Yes. 

Are  you  acquainted  with  Mr.  -Maskall  ?*^ 
saw  him  once  oefore  that  evening.  , 

Mr.  Maskall  dealt  with  your  husband? — 
Yes.  Mr.  Maskall  once  called  at  our  shop 
and  paid  a  bill. 

Did  you  hold  any  conversation  with  Mr. 
Maskall? — I  do  not  recollect  any  convena- 
tion ;  he  asked  us  how  we  did  ?  we  asked  him 
how  he  did ;  he  Joined  with  us  in  lamenting 
the  loss  of  such  nne  fiimiture.  The  particu- 
lar expressions  I  do  not  remember. 

I  only  wish  to  know  how  long^  you  and 
Mr.  Cooper  continued  with  Mr.  Maskall,  or 
how  \oDg  you  had  him  within  your  eye  ? — 
It  was  ten  minutes  past  two  when  we  ^t 
home. 

How  Icmg  do  you  think  you  were  walking 


•Wl 


SI9  GEORttE  m.         Pracgedings  reUHtm  to  #fe  Riots  .*—         f]9|e 


from  BkKniitkniiy-^iaBrp  to  your  own  hoMe? 

— ^A  few  minutes. 

Had  Mr.  Maskall  left  tou  before  you  pro- 
ceoded  to  go  home,  or  did  you  leave  Mr.  Mas- 
kaU  tbeieT— Mr.  Maskail  left  us. 

How  Ions  had  Mr.  ftfaakall  quitted  you 
before  you  feft  the  square? — ^About  five  mi- 
nutes. 

Then  I  suppose  it  mieht  be  about  two 
o^clock  when  Mr.  MaskalT  left  you  ?— I  be- 
lieve it  was. 

Which  way  did  he  go  when  he  left  you? — 
He  went  up  towards  Great  Russell-street  lead- 
ing to  Tottenham  Ckmrt-road. 

liad  Mr.  Maskail  been  frequently  in  your 

eye,  from  the  time  he  first  asked  you  how  vou 

did,  and  lamented  the  fine  fiirniture  that  had 

been  d^troyedytillhe  said  he  was  going  home 

'  Wd  left  you  ?— Frequently  in  my  ejre. 

Was  he  very  near  you? — Sometimes  very 
near. 

Did  you  ever  see  him  at  any  great  distance? 
—No. 

Was  he  ever  at  such  a  distance  but  you 
eould  observe  him  talking  io  people,  and  who 
they  were  ? — ^I  observed  his  speaking  to  seve- 
ral of  the  spectators. 

Were  th^y  people  of  cnedh  in  their  appear- 
WBce?— They  were. 

During  the  course  of  that  hour  did  you  see 
him  speaking  to  any  of  the  mob  ? — ^I  did  not. 

Did  you  see  any  man  with  a  blue  flag  come 
«^  towajrds  him  ? — ^I  did  not. 

Or  any  number  of  persons  that  had  the  ap- 
fearpmce  of  the  mob  r — ^I  did  not. 

Did  you  see  him  take  any  active  part  what- 
itver  during  the  time  you  were  there  ? — ^Not  in 
1^  least 

Did  you  hear  him  utter  an  expression  that 
conveyed  a  wish  that  the  mob  should  do  the 
mischief  they  did  ? — ^Not  in  the  least. 

Was  the  whole  of  his  conduct  and  conver- 
sation as  <fuiet  and  peaceable  as  your  own? — 
As  much  so.  , 

CrosS'Exafnination. 

.  If  I  understand  you,  very  little  conversation 
passed  between  your  husband,  you,  and  Mr. 
JUaakall  ?— Very  trifling. 

You  did  not  hear  what  the  nature  of  his 
xonvenation  was  with  other  people  ? — ^I  did 
npt. 

About  what  distance  do  you  think  he  might 
'.be  firom  you  ?•— Three  or  four  yards,  perhaps ; 
sometimes  five  or  six. 

There  was  nothing  particular  in  Mr.  Mas- 
kall'a  condu^  that  called  tor  any  particular 
■Attention  from  you  to  it?--Nothing  at  all. 

I  presume  your  attention  was  chiefly  taken 
up  by  seeing  the  dreadful  work  that  was  go- 
ingon  ?— Yes,  I  did  attend  to  that. 

Did  you  see  so  much  of  him  as  to  be  able 
to  form  a  judgment  of  his  conduct  ducing  the 
.wkola  time?-3  think  I  did. 

John  Robituon  sworn. 

Do  you  jcmember  theJbe  thai  lu4>p«ied 


at  Jord  Mansfidd^s  UM»  Tw^d^r  tbe  ifikb  of 
June  ? — ^I  remember  tne  goods  beine  burnt.  * 

You  am  an  attorney  ?— I  am  witti  Measn. 
Qateman  and  Bamaid  m  Maideik-kme. 

Did  you  happen  to  be  present  in  Bknaaa- 
buxy-equare  during  any  {Mirt  of  the  busness? 
«-I  was  present 

Do  you  recollect  about  what  time  it  waa 
that  you  wtee  piesent? — ^I  believe  about  a 
quarter  after  one  o'clock  in  the  moming. 

What  part  of  the  square  was  it  you  8«»od 
in? — ^Near  to  the  gales  of  the  duke  of  £tod- 
fopd ;  I  stood  between  them  and  lord  Mana- 
field's  house,  but  rather  nearer  to  the  gatiB 
than  lord  Mansfield's  house*,  after  I  bad 
been  there  a  little  while,  I  spied  Mr.  Maskail 
veiy  near  to  me,  within  a  yard^  I  believe^  of 
me ;  I  had  a  gentleman  with  me;  and  I  said, 
*  there  is  the  pedantic  Maskail,'  or  '  there  is 
Mr.  Maskail.' 

How  long  did  you  observe  Mr.  Maa|«i^l 
there,  or  did  you  continue  there? — I  thiak  I 
was  there  about  an  hour. 

Did  ^ou  make  any  observation  of  Mr.  Mas- 
kail b^ng  near  you,  or  where  he  was  during 
the  time  of  your  being  there  ? — ^I  frequently, 
at  various  times,  saw  him  about  that*  spot 
where  I  first  saw  him ;  I  did  not  speak  to 
him,  not  having  any  acquaintance  with  ^um. 

Did  you  frequently,  or  only  now  and  thapy 
make  any  observation  of  Mr.  MaakalTs  beha- 
viour and  conduct?—-:!  did  observe  him  two 
or  three  times,  but  not  to  notiee  any  tbiag 
particular  about  him.  I  did  not  observe  that 
ne  was  any  wav  riotous,  or  concerned  about 
the  riot.  I  dia  not  observe  any  body  come 
to  him^  or  he  speak  to  any  body,  or  go  near 
to  the  fire  or  tne  rioters,  and  I  well  remem- 
ber seeing  him  frequently  during  that  hour. 

That  was  his  conduct  during  all  that  time  ? 
— During  all  the  tune  I  saw  him.  I  haye 
well  recollected  myself.  I  came  here  last 
Thursday  entirely  unsolicited  to  give  evidence 
on  his  behalf,  having  heard  he  was  taken  up 
upon  this  business  of  lord  Mansfield's,  aoa 
being^  conscious  he  had  nothing  more  to  dp 
with  it  than  I  had  as  a  tame  spectator. 

Court,  How  long  did  you  sayyoumig^t 
be  th&tt  ?— About  an  hour. 

Were  you  at  this  fire  in  Bloomsbuiy-squan  ? 
— ^I  was. 

At  what  time  did  you  go  there? — Befoie 
ever  the  doors  were  broke  open,  I  believe  it 
might  be  a  little  before  one  o'clock. 

How  long  did  you  remain  there? — 1 8up> 
pose  till  near  five  o'clock. 

Do  you  know  Mr.  Maskail  ? — Very  wdL  -- 

What  part  of  the  square  were  you  in? — I 
went  up  to  the  captain  of  the  giurd  to  get 
him  to  oraw  the  soldiers  round  the  house.  I 
went  into  the  house  with  Mr.  Dowse,  one  of 
lord  Mansfield's  officers.  I  saw  people-sun- 
dering and  pulling  things  to  }Reces.  I  wont 
about, anio,  and  saw  people  pidlingtfainn 
about.  1  went  into  the  thickest  of  tSa  maS, 
and  was  about  for  some  houn^  and  I  did  wt 
see  Mr.  Maskail  at  all. 


VK) 


Trial^BiJ.MnkalL 


Y«aiie«liatotlie  kouae  for  the  purppse  of 
^vinff  assistaodb? — I  did.  I  have  m  house 
near  Tonl  Mansfield's. 

Were  you  upon  the  steps,  or  in  the  street 
about  Ihe  house  between  one  and  two? — ^I 
was  in  the  street  at  thai  time. 

Did  you  see  Mr.  Maakall  there? — ^I  did  not 

TM  you  see  the  mob  in  general? — ^Yes, 
and  several^peoole  whom  I  recollect  that  were 
veiy  active  ux  tne  business. 

If  Mr.  Maskall  had  been  there,  and  been 
active,  do  vou  think  you  should  have  seen 
him  ? — ^Undoubtedlv  I  should,  and  must  have 
known  him,  from  the  number  of  years  I  have 
known  him.  I  left  the  place  just  before  the 
aoldieia  fired  upon  the  mob. 

William  Mace  sworn. 

What  are  you  ?— A  carpenter. 

Do  you  happen  to  know  Mr.  MaakaU? — ^I 
liave  known  hmi  about  three  years. 

Were  you  ut  any  time  at  lord  Mansfield's 
house  ? — ^I  was,  about  twelve  o'clock. 

You  were  there  quite  at  the  beginning? — I 
was. 

How  long  did  you  stay  there  ?•— Till  near 
three  in  the  mormng. 

Qm  vou  recollect  where  you  were,  between 
one  and  two  o'clock  ? — Standing  at  the  end 
of  the  duke  of  Bedford's  wall,  at  the  watch- 
box,  almost  opposite  lord  Mansfield's  house. 

For  how  long  a  time  were  you  on  that  spot  ? 
•r-I  believe  I  might  be  there  till  two  o'clock. 

During  that  time  liad  you  your  eye  towards 
lord  Mansfield's  door  ? — I  had. 
.    Duriiig  that  time  did  you  see  Mr.  Maskall  ? 
.  — >I  did  not. 

Mr.  Maskall  having  been  known  to  you 
for  three  year%  if  he  had  been  before  the 
door  was  it  likely  or  probable  that  you  should 
have  seen  him  ? — Yes,  if  he  had  been  before 
the  door  or  upon  the  steps  I  must  have  seen 


Did  you  see  any  people  upon  the  steps  ? — 
•  Yes»  I  might  tell  20,  and  they  were  cniefiy 
boys. 

And  ^ou  are  clear  you  never  saw  Mr.  Mas- 
kall during  that  time  ?r— I  did  not. 

Did  you  see  any  books  and  parchments 

brought  out  of  the  nouse  to  be  burnt  ? — ^I  did 

not  take  any  particular  notice  of  what  the 

,  things  were  which  were  brought  out ;  a  great 

.  man  V  things  were  brought  out. 

When  you  were  jgoins  towards  home  did 
you  see  Mr.  Maskall  ?— I  went  up  to  the  side 
of  the  duke  of  Bedford's  wall,  and  went  to- 
wards the  west  side  of  the  square,  and  at  the 
]  end  of  Great  Russell-street,  that  leads  into 
,  the  square,  there  I  saw  Mr.  Maskall  stand 
by  himself;   some  new  buiklings  have  been 
erected  there ;  he  stood  uj>  close  to  the^build- 
s^Kh  tliAt  was  the  first  tune  I  saw  him ;  I 
aaked  him  how  he  did  ?  He  said,  ''  He  had^ 
,-^fAd  tfbpnl  the  square  ^  he  was  cold,  tind 
:«f  ifassoinghometobedi''  He  bid  me  good 
.  Q^t;  I  b3  him  the  same,    I  saw  him  go 
up  the  streety  I  believe  f(^  ya^s  before  om. 


A.  D.  1780.         lean 

I  turned ;  then  I  went  down  th«,  west  side  of 
the  square,  and  went  home. 

Do  you  know  that  fellow  Ingram?-*!  do 
not 

You  say  you  saw  Mr.  Maskall  walk  lip 
Russell-street  40  dr  50  yards  ?--^I  did,  and  he 
told  me  he  had  staid  till  he  was  cold,  so  help 
me  God.  » 

Crott^Esaminatum. 

« . 

What  time  was  this? — Between  two  and 
three  o'clock. 

How  near  to  three? — I  do  not  beli(}ve  it 
was  quite  three ;  it  was  at  the  breaking  of 
the  day.    I  did  not  look  at  mv  watch. 

I  am  desired  to  ask  you  whether  you  saw 
any  one  join  Mr.  Maskall  as  he  walked  down 
Great  Russell-street  ? — ^No,  nobody;  .porwi|S 
there  any  body  with  him  when  I  saw  him. 

George  Eichardion  sworn. 

Where  do  you  live  ? — In  Bloomsbury. 

Whereabouts  ? — ^In  Swan-passage. 

What  are  you? — A  coach-carver. 

Did  you  happen  to  be  in  Bloomsbuiy^-squne 
at  the  time  ot  the  riot  ?— I  was. 

At  what  time  did  you  first  go  there  ?-^I  be- 
lieve between  twelve  and  one.  I  was  there 
before  the  door  was  broke  open. 

When  did  you  fifst  see  Mr.  Maskall  ?>— I 
did  not  see  him  at  all. 

Where  were  you? — I  assisted  one  of  my 
lord's  servants  in  getting  some  of  bis  things 
out  of  the  house. 

Were  you  in  the  hoyse  during  the  time  of 
the  riot  ? — Several  times. 

Did  you  observe  any  of  the  mob  carrying 
any  of  the  things  out  of  the  house  ? — I  did. 

Do  you  know  Mr.  Maskall  ?— I  do. 

You  know  his  person  perfectly  well  ? — ^I  do. 

If  Mr.  Maskall  was  encouraging  or  doing 
ai^  acts  to  abet  the  mob,  do  you  think  you 
should  have  seen  him? — ^I  must  have  seen 
him. 

Did  you  see  any  parchments  or  books 
burnt? — ^I  remember  a  vast  number  of  di&- 
rent  articles  set  on  fire.  I  do  not  remember 
in  particular  any  books.  r 

Do  you  remember  any  particular  observe^ 
tion  you  made  between  one  and  two  ?•— ^  was 
there  till  between  four  and  five  in  the  mora* 
ing. 

Then  you  did  not  see  Mr.  Maakall  do  $ny 
one  thing  ?— I  did  not  see  him  at.all. 

If  he  &d  been  upon  the  steps  as  you  passed 
the  house,  must  not  you  have  seen  him  ? — I 
am  confident,  if  he  lud  been  Uiere^  I  must 
have  seen  him. 

CroH-Examnatifin, 

Were  you  carrying  things  out  at  the  same 
time  that  the  mob  was  carrying  things  out  ? 
-—Yes. 

'  Where  did  you  carry  them  to  ?— I  went  vf 
thci  area  stairs  with  the 'servant  Grove. 

That  is  a  different  flight  of  stairs  from  that 
which  the  mob  weat  up  ?'—fe8. 


963] 


26  GEOftGE  III.  Proceeding  rdaUoe  to  the  Riots  .•—       •  [6S4 


It  comes  into  the  street  ? — Yes. 

Then  you  must  have  seen  people  that  were 
upon  the  steps? — ^Yes^  I  went  in  that  way 
myself. 

Sarah  Simpion  sworn. 

Do  you  rememher  seeing  Mr.  Maskall  on 
the  IViesday  night? — ^Yes. 

Where  did  vou  see  him? — Between  New- 
man-street  andBeniers-street,  near  his  own 
house. 

At  what  hour? — Between  twelve  and  one ; 
I  asked  him  whether  he  was  going  to  see  the 
Hre  ?  He  said,  **  Yes,  he  heard  lord  Mans- 
field's house  was  attempted,  hut  he  hoped  in 
God  Almighty  that  it  was  not  true." 
'  Had  you  anv  further  conversation  with 
him  ? — "SOy  he  bid  me  good  night,  and  went 
away. 

■ 

Rev.  Mr.  Tkomat  FUher  sworn.  , 

Are  you  so  fortunate  as  to  know  Mr.  In- 
gram ? — 'I  am. 

Couruel  for  the  Crown.  Is  that  a  proper 
way  of  putting  the  question  ? 

Counsel  for  the  Pritoner,  Do  you  know 
Mr.  Ingiam? — A,   I  do. 

What  is  he  ?— He  was  a  doctor  in  physic. 

What  is  he  now  ? — I  do  not  know. 

Have  you  any  reason  to  know  any  thing  of 
his  character  ? — Yes. 

Is  he  to  be  confided  in? — ^Peoplc  think 
there  b  a  hazard  in  that,  and  I  thins  so. 

What  do  you  mean  by  there  being  a  ha^ 
zard  ? — Because  he  might  deceive  them  per- 
haps. 

1  am  asking  you  a  general  ouestion ;  what 
was  his  x^aracter  in  the  neighoourhood  where 
you  ana  he  lived? — As  a  man  who  would 
take  people  in,  as  they  call'it,  if  they  had  any 
dealings  with  him. 

Court.  It  is  a  plain  question  you  are  ask- 
ed ;  you  reason  about  it,  mstead  of  giving  an 
answer*  you  say  he  might  deceive, to  be  sure 
he  might,  so  might  any  body ;  your  answer 
must  TO  more  decisive. 

Counsel  for  the  Prisoner.  Was  he  a  man 
that  was  believed  as  well  ^  his  neighbours  ? 
-^A.    No. 

Would  you  believe  him  as  far  as  your  other 
nei^bours? — ^No,  far  from  it;  perhaps  he 
mignt  not  alwavs  deceive  me. 

Court.  Would  you  believe  him  upon  his 
oath  ?  That  is  the  question  which  is  always 
asked  when  you  impeach  a  man's  testimony; 
do  vou  think  he  is  to  be  believed  upon  his 
oath  ? — A.  He  is  the  last  man  I  know  that  I 
would  beheve,  even  upon  his  oath. 

Then  vou  mean  to  say  that  you  would  not 
believe  him? — ^He  is  the  last  man  that  I 
would  believe. 

<  Court.  That  imports  that  you  would  be- 
lieve him.  You  know  he  lias  been  called 
here  to  gjive  his  testimony,  which  testimony 
he  has  givcjn  upon  his  oath;  you  are  called 
upon  your  oath  to  discredit  ms  veracity,  and 
to  say,  that  be,  in  your  belief,  ought  not  to 


receive  credit  upon  his  oath. — A.    I  woiyd 
not  believe  him  upon  his  oath. 

Cross-Examination, 

Where  do  vou  live  ? — ^At  Richmond. 

Where  did  you  live  before  ? — ^At  Ke&aing- 
ton. 

You  are  the  clergyman  perhaps  of  that  par 
rish  ? — ^Not  of  that  parish,  I  live  there. 

What,  do  you  ktep  a  sdiool  there  ? — ^No. 

You  have  no  connection  with  the  parish  ? 
— ^None. 

You  have  no  particular  connection  with 
Mr.  Ingram,  perhaps  ? — No,  not  now. 

You  can  only  speak  to  the  general  charac- 
ter of  a  person  here ;  is  it  your  meanins,  tbst 
let  him  swear  what  he  may,  you  would  not 
believe  him  upon  his  oath  ? — I  mean  so. 

Have  you  anv  connection  with  anv  parish, 
or  any  parochial  duty  ? — Yes,  at  Maiden,  near 
Kingston. 

Are  you  a  vicar  or  curate  ? — ^A  curate. 

To  whom  ? — Mr.  Bean  of  Maiden. 

That  is  all  your  duty  ? — It  is. 

William  Richardson  sworn. 

What  are  you  ? — A  printer. 

Do  you  happen  to  know  Mr.  Richaid  In^ 
gram? — I  have  some  slight  knowledge  of 
nim;  I  cannot  speak  any  thing  respecting 
him  particularly  oi  my  own  knonnedge,  I  can 
from  general  report. 

Do  you  know  any  thing  of  his  general  cha^ 
racter  ? — ^His  general  character  is  that  of  an 
abominable  liar. 

'  Do  you  know  any  thing  more  of  him  ? — 
I  have  been  in  several  companies  where  he 
has  been  mentioned,  and  whenever  his  name 
was  mentioned,  he  was  generally  known  by 
the  appellation  of  Lying  Dick ;  he  was  as 
well  known  by  that  appellation  as  Richard 
Inmm. 

f^rom  the  knov^ledge  you  have  of  the  ge- 
neral character  he  bears,  is  he  a  man  that 
you  would  believe  upon  his  oath  ? — Upon  my 
oath,  I  would  not  believe  him  upon  his  oath, 

William  Price  sworn. 

Do  you  know  any  thing  of  this  Richard 
Ingram  ? — ^I  know  Inm  very  well. 

What  a^e  you  ? — ^An  attorney. 

What  character  does  he  bear  ? — There  is  a 
diversity  of  opinions  respecting  him ;  some 
give  him  a  good  character,  and  some  a  veiy 
mdiflerent  one. 

Which  is  the  most  prevalent  of  the  two  ? — 
I  hear  that  he  is  a  most  notorious  liar. 

What  is  his  most  general  character? — ^I 
have  heard  that  character  of  him,  that  he  is 
a  liar. 

Is  the  opinion  more  eeneral  of  his  being  a 
liar  than  otherwise?---!  have  heard  them 
that  know  him  a  good  deal  say  so. 

Have  you  had  any  conversation  with  Mr. 
Ingram  relative  to  this  business  ? — I  have  ; 
I  happened  to  be  at  the  London  coffee  house ; 
I  thmk  I  turned  in  for  the  purpose   ' 


es5] 


Trial  of  H.J.  MaduM, 


A.  D.  1730. 


[6S« 


the  dispalches  that  were  received  from  sir 
Henry  Clinton ;  I  think  it  was  on  the  16th, 
though  I  will  not  be  particular  to  the  day ; 
whilst  I  was  there  Dr.  Ingram  came  in,  and 
aAer  some  litUe  conversation,  he  said  lord 
Mansfield  writes  a  very  plain  liand,  or  a  good 
hand,  Mrords  to  that  import;    he  then  had 
some  letters  in  his  hand  ;  upon  which  he  de- 
livered me  over  a  note  from  lord  Minsfield, 
as  he  said.  He  asked  me  if  I  knew  lord  Mans- 
field's hand  ?  I  said  I  had  been  in  possession 
•f  his  name,  and  I  believed  that  to  be  his 
lordship's  hand-writing:   it  was  a  compli- 
mentary card  from  lord  Mansfield  to  him; 
I  think  lord  Mansfield  was  then  sitting  at 
Guildhall ;   the  import  of  the  card  I  do  not 
nemember  particularly,  but  I  think  it  was, 
^  Lord  Mankfiftld  sends  compliments  to  Dr.  In* 
g^am,  he  is  much  obliged  for  some  inibrma- 
tion,  and  prohfdi>]y  he  might  hear  from  him ;'' 
something  of  that  import.    He  also  produced 
-  another  Ktter,  which  he  said  was  tne  hand- 
writing of  lord  Stormont;  and  further  he  said 
he  had  breakfasted  tiiat  morning  with  lord 
Stormont,  or  was  to  breakfast  with  him.    I 
then  congratulated  him  on  bavins  an  inter- 
view with  such  great  personages.    1  told  him 
that  I  hoped  he  would  be  provided  for ;  in 
answer  to  which  he  said  he  was  provided  for. 
•My  curiosity  did  not  lead  me  to' inspect  the 
ktters  he  said  he  received  from  lord  Stop- 
Bont. 

What  passed  else?— That  is  all  I  know  of 
the  business. 

What  did  vou  understand  firom  Mr.  Ingram, 
when  he  said  he  was  provided  for  f—'l  under- 
stood he  was  provided  for  in  the  way  of  his 
profession.  I  have  not  the  least  idea  of  the 
circumstances. 

Did  he  say  any  thing  more  than  you  have 
mentioned } — Not  a  syllable  more. 

Would  you  believe  Mr.  Ingram  upon  his 


ral  chafacter  has  been,  that  he  is  a  man  ra- 
ther that  would  romance. 

Is  that  his  general  character  ?— Yes,  it  is. 

Is  he  a  man  that  you  would  believe  now 
upon  his  oath  ?>-No,  I  would  not. 

Upon  your  oath  you  would  not  ?— Upon  my 
oath  I. would  not. 

And  you  have  known  him  thirteen  or  four^* 
teen  years  ?— Yes,  or  thereabouts. 

*     Crosi-Examination, 

What,  do  you  think  he  would  romance 
upon  his  oath  ? — I  cannot  say  about  that  any 
more  than  what  hearsay  b. 

He  is  called  a  man  given  to  romance  ?— r 
Yes>  much  so. 

George  Furnace  sworn. 

Do  you  know  Richard  Ingram? — I  do. 

What  are  you  ? — ^A  publican. 

How  long  have  you  known  him  ? — These 
three  years. 

What  is  his  character? — ^He  lodged  and 
boarded  with  me  all  last  winter  firom  August 
till  March. 

What  do  you  know  of  his  character?— I. 
know  he  eat  and  drank  my  property,  and  did 
not  pay  me  any  thing. 

.  What  is  his  general  character?— Not  to 
pay  any  debts  he  contracts. 

Court.  You  are  notcalled  here  to  speak  to 
any.  particular  )>arts  of  his  conduct,  or  to  any 
other  part  of  his  character,  but  that  of  vera- 
city. What  is  his  character  with  respect  to 
veracity  ?— ii.  He  gave  me  a  note  here  for 
payment  of  money. 

Court.  You  were  told  you  was  called  here 
only  to  apeak  to  his  veracitv  }^A,  He  told  me 
a  great  many  falsehoods,  tnat  he  had  some^ 
thmg  to  receive  at  the  War-office;,  when  I 
came  to  examme,  he  had  nothing. 


oath?— 1  would  believe  him  as  soon  as  any  |  ^^  you  think  him  a  man  to  be  believed  ? 
man  in  the  kingdom  upon  his  oath ;  I  have  |  -r^f  I  do  not,  he  has  told  me  so  many  fidse- 
indeediieard  the  character  of  him  which  I  ,  liooas- .,  .    '  ■    ' 

menlaoned,  but  I  would  believe  him.  |     Is  he  a  man  you.would  believe  upon  any 

Counul/or  the  Crown.    Mr.  Ingram,  I  wish  !  occasion  ?— No,  I  would  not,  he  has  deceived 
you  would  explain  this  conversation  about  the  '  ™®  so  often. 
note  you  had  from  lord  Mansfield.  !     Is  he  a  man  that  you  would  believe  upon 

Ingram.  Here  iS  a  letter  I  received  from  ^^  ^^  ?— No,  he  has  deceived  me  upon  hi^ 
lord  Mansfield,  in  consequence  of  a  letter  I  '  ^^rd  so  often,  that  I  would  not  believe  him 
wrote  to  bis  lordship. 

Relative^  to  this  subject  was  it  ? — I  wrote  a 


kmg  letter  on  the  Thursday. 

Is  that  the  letter  you  wrote  to  lord  Mans- 
field, in  consequence  of  whidvyou  received 
that  note  in  answer? — ^It  is.  **  Lord  Mansfield 
•ends  his  compliments  to  Mr.  Ingram,  and 
tetums  him  many  thanks  for  lus  letter,  he 
will  probably  hear  of  it." 

Richard  Shearsmith  sworn. 

What  are  you? — ^A  perriwig-maker. 
How  long  have  you  known  Mr.  Ingraih  ?— 
^niirteenor fourteen  vears. 

What  is  has  g^eral  character  f— »His  gene- 


upon  his  oath. 

Atkinson  Bu$h,  esq.  sworn. 

*  What  evidence.  Sir,  are  you  come  to  give  ? 
— Between  the  prisoner  and  Mr  Ingram,  re- 
specting his  veracity. 

Did  you  know  any  thmg  of  his  credit  ? — I 
know  nothing  of  his  credit,  but  much  of  his 
discredit. 

Where  do  you  live? — In  Great  Ormond- 
street.    I  have  known  him  30  years. 

During  that  time  has  he  been  a  man  of  a 
fair  and  good  character,  or  not? — ^When  I 
went  to  scnool  with  him  he  was  known  hy 
the  same  appellation  by  which  he  has  now 
been  described^  that  of  Lying  Dick. 


087]  21  tSEORGE  m. 

Has  lie  desenred  that  name  from  his  in- 
frncy  eren  until  now? — ^From  the  time  I 
have  known  him,  iirom  the  general  character 
he  hears,  he  has. 

You  think  he  still  deserves  that  appella- 
tion ? — That  was  his  character  at  school,  and 
from  that  character  I  have  never  heen  inti- 
mate with  hhn  since ;  that  is  the  character 
he  has  now  at  the  coffee-house  I  frequenty 
the  Ormond-street  coffee-house. 

Ont  ^  the  Jury.  Pray,  Sir,  what  are  you  ? 
— ^.  I  believe  one  among  the  jury  can  in- 
fonn  the  rest. 

Is  he  a  roan  that  you  would  believe  upon 
his  oath  ?— No,  I  say  so  upon  n\y  oath,  and  I 
believe  the  Solicitor  General,  and  many  more 
here,  will  believe  me  upon  my  oath. 

Ingram.  I  am  in  a  disagreeable  situation, 
my  character  has  been  attacked  here ;  there 
is  not -a  debt  I  owe  which  I  have  not  written 
down,  and  have  not  delivered  in  to  the  soli- 
ctor in  this  cause,  knowing  such  an  attack 


Trial  ofF.H.  De  la  MaHe, 


[&» 


wduld  be  inade  upoA  onr  chandler;  everf 
circumstance  of  my  life,  from  my  irst  teUiiig* 
ouL  I  have  put  down  the  general  heads  of; 
and  some  eeneral  officers,  tl^  first  officers  in 
the  army,  nave  promised  to  be  here,  because 
I  was  told  that  such  an  attack  wouM  bemade 
ujwn  my  character,  and  that  my  debts  and 
misfortunes  in  the  world  would  come  6ut  in 
court.  I  appeal  if  I  did  not  make  the  renirk 
myself,  ana  desire  that  such  an  appeal  hu^ 
be  made  to  gentlemen,  as  to  my  cnaracter. 

[Several  witnesses  were  called,  none  o( 
whom  appeared.]   .         • 

Counxl  for  the  Prisimer,  Mr.  Maifcall 
opened  in  his  defence,  that  he  would  call 
some  witnesses  to  his  character ;  if  he  wiU 
be  determined  by  me,  I  think  it  <|iiite 


Verdict,  If  ot  Guilty. 
Tried  before  the  Lord  Chief  Baron  Skynnsr. 


664.  The  Trial  ♦  of  Fbancis  Henry  De  La  Motte,  for  High 
Treason :  Before  the  Right  Hon.  Sir  Watkin  Lewes^  knt. 
Lord  Mayor  of  the  City  of  London ;  the  Hon.  Francis  Bnller, 
esq.  one  of  the  Justices  of  his  Majesty's  Court  of  King's-Bench ; 
the  Hon.  John  Heathy  esq.. one  of  the  Justices  of  his  Majesty's 
Court  of  Common  Pleas;'  James  Adair,  Serjeant  at  Law, 
Recorder ;  and  others  his  Migesty's:  Justices  of  Oyer  and  Ter« 
miner  of  the  City  of  London,  and  Justices  of  Gaol  Delivery  of 
Newgate,  holden  for  the  said  City  and  County  of  IMiddlesex ; 
July  14:  21  GEoiiaElII.  a.d.  1781. 


"  Middlesex,  Bb  it  rememhered,  That  at 
the  general  session  of  Oyer  and  Terminer  of 
our  lord  the  king,  holden  for  the  county  of 
Middlesex,  at  Hicks*s-hall  in  St.  John's-street 
in  the  said  county,  on  Tuesday  the  34th  day 
of  April,  in  tfie  91st  year  of  th^  reign  of  our 
"aovereig^  lord  Geonre  the  3rd,  king  of  Great 
Britain,  &c.  hefore  William  Munwarine,  esq. 
the  re¥.  sir  George  Booth,  ht.  Geor^  Mercer, 
David  Walker,  esqrs.  and  others  their  fellows, 
justices  of  our  saia  lord  the  king,  assigned  by 
his  ongesty's  letters  patent  under  the  great 
seal  of  Great  Britain,  directed  to  the  same 
justices  before  named,  and  others  in  the  said 
letters  named,  to  .enquire  more  fiilly  the  truth 
by  the  oath  of  good  and  lawful  men  of  the 
•aaid  county  of  Middlesex,  and  by  other  ways, 
means,  and  methods,  by  which  they  shall  or 
'luav  better  know  (as  well  within  liberties  as 
without)  by  whom  the  truth .  of  the  matter 
•may  be  better  known,  of  all  treasons,  mis- 

»  TAai  i»  !»>rifcin<l  by  J<»^ph  Giaey.     . 


prisions  of  treason,  insurrections,  rebelUon% 
cotmterfeitinss,  clippings,  waidiii^,  fiilst 
coining,  and  other  falsities  of  the  money  of 
Great  oritain  and  other  kingdoms  or  donir 
nions  whatsoever;  and  aU  murthers,  fekHUea^ 
manslaughters,  killings,  burglaries,  rapes  of 
women,  unlawfid  meetings,  conventicla,.ui^ 
lawful  uttering  of  words,  aatembUes,  mispri- 
sions, confederacies,  false  allegatioiis^  tres- 
passes, riots,  routs,  relentiona,  escapes,  oon^ 
tempts,  falsities,  negHgeacea,  conceiimeDts> 
maintenances,  oppresrions,  champartiefl^  d^ 
oehs,  and  all  other  evil  doing%  onenoes,  voi 
injuries  whatsoever,  and  also  the  acceawriei 
of  them,  within  the  county  afbreaaid  (asuaS 
within  liberties  as  without)  by  iribomspemr 
and  in  what  manner  soever  done,  committed, 
or  perpetrated,  and  by  whom  or  to  ^AMt 
when,  how,  and  afler  what  manner ;  and  of 
all  otiier  articles  and  circumatanoes  oolieM* 
in^  the  premises,  and  every  of  them  or  W 
ofthem  m  any  manner  wfaataoever ;  and  W 
8»d  treason^  and  other  the  premiaeai  ta  hetf 


•ewg 


JorWg^  Trmumu 


•itfid.delaniMitt  »<;<c»dWn  ^  ^  ^^^  giii€i»' 
iMM'O^  fiagfltfid^  by  th«  oath  of  Joho  Tikiey, 
Miles  JDiPt,  JobH  Tbomu,  John  I^Mfsoii, 
Jp;intt.8inilh^  JUcfapid  Smw,  Joseph  Oaiy, 
J«te  nr^kr,  John  Cburk,  Thomas  MQagtjy 
J^tic  MtiXaoo,  Willkm  Coi^k,  Rkhaid  Sto- 
Mlo%T«nothy  Tomtim^  and  Joseph  'Mus- 
IM^fjiod.tfidWfulnieii  of  thecouMjjraic^ 
.^/^nm  htn  strom  aod  chaiigedto  iomiice 
Jhtrmmmifi  kffd  the  king  te  the  body  or  the 
.wttecoHBfty.  It  is.  Reseated  in  i]i8itfier>aiid 
loim  IblkMring  (that  is  to  say) : 

^  MitUkfex.    The  jurors  for  our  sovereign 
Jsrd  the  king,  upon  their  oath,  presemt,  tMt 
^tt  open  ana  Dublic  war,  on  the  1 1th  dat  of 
Jaanaiy,  m  tne  aoth  yen  of  the  reisp  at  oar 
isirtiicign  lord  Georj^e  the  Srd,  by  the  aiace 
!af  God,  of  Great  Bnftun,  FraBce,  and  IieTand, 
imgf  defender  of  the  £uth,  and  so  forth,  and 
1h^  before  aad  ever  since  hitherto  by  land 
aad  by  sea  was,  and  yet  is  carried  on  and 
frasacuted  by  Lewis  the  French  king  against 
4Nir  aaost  serene,  illustrious,  and  excSUeni 
priace,  our  saidi  lord  the  now  kins ;  and  that 
ana  Fraaeia  Heavy  De  ki  Matte,  late  of  the 
panshi  of  St.  George,  Uaoisver-«qMare^  in  the 
cdHat^y  af  A^iddlesaz,  gentleman,  a  Skd>ject  of 
aw  said  bid  the  king,  of  his  kingoam  of 
Crseat  Biitain,  well  knowing  the  premises, 
jwt  hawing  the  feac  of  God  in  his  heart,  nor 
,apaighii^g  ue  duty  of  his  aUegiance,  but  being 
,ino«tBd  «td  seduced  by  the  intt%ation  of  the 
dcirily  aa  a  false  traitor  agunst  our  said  most 
acsene^ifluetrfous,  and  excellent  prince  George 
the  drd,  now  king  of  Great  Bntun».  aad  so 
forth  vusd  contriving,  and  with  all  hia  atrensth 
inlendiBg^  the  peace  and  oommon*  tiaaquilSty 
air  thia  kmgdom  of  Great  Britain  to  disquiet 
wleal,  aad  diatui4>^  and  the  government  of 
aur  aaid  present  sovereign  lord  the  kkigof 
this  kingdom  of  Gseat  Bdtain.  to  chanj^ 
subvert,  and  a^ter;  and  our  said  lord  the  long 
horn,  the  wyni  state,  title,  honour,  power,  .on* 
nefial  ciDWn  and  government  of  this  his  king* 
dom  of  Gceaft  Britam,  to  depose  and  deprive; 
and  our  said  lord  the  present  king  to  death 
and  final'dastruction  to  brinff.and  put,  and  the 
foiibiulsidgacts  of  our  said  lord  the. king,  and 
the  freemen  of  this  kingdom,  to  biding  into 
thamoafc  Busarable  servitude  and  slavery  under 
,the  said  i^rench  king;  he,  the  said  Francis 
HsniyDe  la-Motte^  on  the  said  11th  day  of 
Janaai^i  in  the  said  30th  year  of  the  reign  of 
•ur.aaid  lord  the  king,  sjid  on  divers  other 
days  and  tiaies,  as  well  before  as  after  that 
#89%  with  force  and  arms,  at  the  said  parish 
oC.St.  Gearge,  Uanover-square,  in  the  said 
ity  ef  Middlesex,  folsely,  wickedly,  and 
araasly  did  ernnpaas,  imaeine,  and  mtend 
aid  p^ent  sov^re^  l^the  kmg,  of 
aad  frnm  the  n^rai  state,  crown,  title,  power, 
aad<gavanmient  of  thisjrealm  of  Great  Bcitaiin, 
tl>daposfeaad  wholly  deprive,  and  the  same 
kid- the  king  to  kiu,  and  bring  and  put  to 
death:   and  to  folfi^  perfect,  and  brmg  to 
aiaaly  hiasaid  most  evil  and  wicked  treason^ 
aenpaarings,  aadimaginatioaa  aforesaid^  he 
VOL.  XXL 


A.  D.  1731.         [edo 

the  said  FiaocSa  Henry  l>a4a.lfotte,  aa  such 
folse  traitor,  during  the  war  aforesaid,  to  wit, 
onithe  sakl  nth  day  of  January,  in  the  30th 
year  aforesakl,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in  the 
Goun^  of  Middlesex  aforesakl,  folsely,  wickr 
edlv,  and  traitorously,  did  comoose  and  write, 
and  cause  to  be  composed  and  wrote,  divers 
letters  and  instruction  in  writing,  to  shew 
and  inform  the  said  French  king  and  his  suIk 
jects,  then  and  yet  enemies  of  our  said  pre- 
sent savsreign  lord  the  kinsr,  of  the  state, 
condition,  and  force,  of  severu  of  the  ships  of 
war  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  and  the  auxn- 
ber  of  the  ships  and  fotoes  of  oar  said  loid 
the  king,  then  and  there  designed  and  pfe- 
pared  for  the  defence  of  this  kingdom,  uid 
the  enemies  of  the  said  kingdom  to  attack, 
repel,  aad  resist;  and  how  some  of  the  ships 
of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  lung  were  manned, 
and  for  what  time  divers  sbips  of  war  of  our 
said  lord  the  king  were  furnished  with  pro^ 
visions,  and  of  the  8ta4ioasof  divers  scjuadrons 
of  ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  kmg,  em*' 
ployea  in  prosecuting  andcafiying  on  the  said 
war ;  and  the  names  of  the  commanders  of 
such  squadrons,  and  the  number  and  force  of 
the  ships  of  war  of  which  such  squadrons  oon* 
sisted ;  and  also-  of  the  service  in«whieh  dk 
vers  other  ships  of  war  of  our  said  loid  the 
king  were  then  employed  in  prosecuting  and 
carrying  on  the  saia  war ;  and  also  the  num- 
ber and  force  of  the  ships  of  war  of  our  said 
lord  the  kins,  within  certain  .ports  of  this 
kingdom,  and  of  the  state  and  condition  of 
several  of  the  said  ships;  and  of  the  numbers 
of  the  land  forces  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  in 
this  kingdom  and  the  dominions  thereunto 
belonging;,  and  of  the  times  of  the  sailing  of 
divers  ships  of  war  of  our  aaid  lord  the  km^ 
and  the  destination  of  the  said  ships,  and  the 
services  in  which  such  ships  weSre  employed; 
and  of  the  times  when  other  ships  of  war  of 
our  said  lord  the  king  were  then  expected  to 
^  from  this  kinf^om,  and  the  voy^jes, 
cruizes,  and  services,  upon  which  suph  ships 
were  sailed ;  and  also  of  thoitimas  when  othep 
ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  em- 
pfoyed  in  the  prosecution  and  carrying  on  of 
the  said  war,  were  expected  to  arrive  m  thia 
kingdom ;  and  also  of  the  times  of  the  sailinj^ 
of  several  ships  and  vessels  belonging  to  di- 
vers sdbjects  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  from 
this  kingdom  to  the  dominions  of  our  said 
lord  the  king,  and  other  places,  in  parts  be- 
yond the  seas;  and  dso  of  the  times  v^en* 
other  ship  and  vessels,  belonging  to  divers 
other  subjects  of  our  said  Icurd  tAe  kinn,  were- 
expected  to  sail  from  ^is  kin^om  to  the  do- 
mmions  of  our  said  lord  tb^  king,  and  other 
places,  in  parts  beyond  the  seas ;  and  also  of 
the  times  when  other  ships  and  vessels,  of 
divers  other  subjects  of  our  sidd  lord  the  king,, 
were  expected  to  arrive  in  this  kingdom  from 
the  dominions  of  our  said  lord  the  kin^  and 
other  places^  beyond  the  seas :  and  that  aii8r<^' 
wards,  and  durinc  the  said  war,  to  wit,  on  the 
saidl^th  day  of  January^  in  the  SOth  year 
2  Y 


^l] 


si  GfiOll^  III. 


Trial  oft.  HrDela  Motte, 


[ew 


afbresaid,  at  Che  fiarish  aforesaid,  in  the  cotm-. 
ty  of  Middlesex  aforesaid,  he,  the  said  Francis 
Henry  Dek  Motte,  as  such  false  traitor  as 
aforesaid,  in  prosecution  of  his  said  treason 
and  treasonable  purposes  aforesaid,  falsely, 
wickedly,  and  traiterously  composed  and 
wrote,  and  caused  and  procured  to  be  composed 
and  wrote,  a  certain  letter  to  be  sent  to  certain 
subjects  of  the  sud  French  king,  in  parts  be- 
yond the  seas,  then  and  yet  enemies  of  our 
said  lord  the  king ;  in  wnich  said  letter  the 
said,  Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte,  among  other 
thinss,  wickedly,  felsely,  and  traiterously  no- 
tified,  disclosed,  and  revealed  to  the  said  ene- 
mies of  our  said  lord  the  king,  that  certain 
regiments  of  the  army  of  our  said  lord  the 
king  were  preparing  to  go  to  ^e  West-Indies ; 
and  also  of  the  number  of  land  forces  of  our 
said  lord  the  king  to  be  sent  to  North  Ame- 
rica and  Canada ;  and  of  the  stations  of  divers 
ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  then 
employed  in  prosecuting  and  carrying  on  the 
laia  war  of  our  sud  lord  the  king  against  the 
said  Lewis  the  French  king :  and  afterwards, 
and  during  the  said  war,  to  wit,  on  the  SOth 
day  of  June,  in  the  fiOth  year  aforesaid,  at  the 
parish  aforesaid,  in  the  county  of  Middlesex 
aforesaid,  be  the  daid  Francis  Henry  De  la 
Motte,  as  such  false  traitor  as  aforesaid,  in 
prosecution  of  his  said  treason  and  treasonable 
purposes  aforesaid,  falsely,  wickedly,  and 
traiterously  composed  and  wrote,  and  caused 
and  procured  to  oe  composed  and  wrote,  a  cer- 
tain other  letter,  to  be  sent  to  certain  subjects 
of  the  said  French  king,  in  parts  beyond  the 
seas,  then  and  yet  enemies  of  our  said  lord 
the  king ;  in  which  said  last-mentioned  letter, 
the  said  Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte  (among 
other  thiuss)  wickedly,  falsely,  and  traiter- 
ously notined,  disclosed,  and  revealed  to  the 
said  enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  that  sir 
George  Br3rdges  Rodney,  bart.  then  being  one 
of  the  admiriQs  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  was 
at  the  island  of  Baibadoes,  in  parts  beyond 
the  seas,  with  14  ships  of  war  of  our  saki  lord 
the  king,  part  of  a  squadron  of  ships  of  war 
of  our  said  lord  the  king,  employed  in  prose- 
cuting and  carrying  on  the  said  war,  under 
the  command  of  the  said  sir  George  Brydges 
Bodney,  beinc  such  admiral  as  aforesaid ;  and 
that  seven  other  ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord 
the  king,  other  part  of  the  said  squadron,  kept 
at  sea ;  and  that  other  ships  of  war  of  our 
said  lord  the  king,  other  part  of  the  said  squa- 
dron, were  under  repair  at  St.  lAicia^  in  parts 
beyond  tlie  seas :  and  also  that  Francis  Geary, 
esq.  then  being^  one  other  of  the  admimls  of  our 
said  lord  the  kmg,  was- cruizing,  with  a  squa- 
dron of  other  ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the 
king,  between  the  Scilly  islands  andUshant; 
and  that  certain  ships  and  vessels  were  getting 
ready  with  provisions  for  the  said  squadron ; 
and  that  a  certain  ship  of  war  of  our  said  lord 
the  king,  called  the  Marlborough,  had  sailed 
from  Spithead,  on  Tuesday  then  last  past,  to 
join  the  said  squadron ;  and  that  certain  other 
ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  king,-  em- 


ployed  in  pros6Cihttng  and  caiTyiii|  on  of  thfc 
said  war,  were  off  Cherbur^h,  in  the  kingdom 
of  Fruice:  and  aHerwaros,  and  during  the 
said  war,  ta  wit,  on  the  1st  di^  of  Atigiuty  in 
the  90th  year  aforesaid,  at  the  parish  ame- 
safd,  in  tlie  county  of  Middlesex  aforesaid,  he 
the  said  Francis  Henir  de  la  Motte,  as>  such 
fiUse  traitor  as  aforesaid,  in  prosecutioB  of  l^s 
said  treason  and  treasonable  purposes  afore- 
said, falsely,  wickedly,  and  traitorously  coin- 
posed  and  wrote,  and  caused  and  procmed  to 
be  composed  ana  wrote,  certain  accounts  or 
lists,  to  be  sent  to  certain  subjects  of  the  said 
French  king,  in  parts  beyond  the  seas,  then 
and  yet  enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  kin^ ; 
in  one  of  which  said  accoimts  or  lists,  the  said 
Francis  Henry  de  la  Motte  falsely,  wickedly, 
and  traitorously  notifieQ,  disdosied,  and-  re>- 
vealed  to  the  enemies  of  our  said  lord  Htm 
king,  the  number,  force  and  station  of  a  cer- 
tain sc|uadron  of  ships  of  war  of  our  said  kml 
the  king,  then  emnloyed  in  prosecuting  and 
canning  on  the  said  war,  under  the  conmiand 
of  the  said  Francis  Geary,  then  being  one  of 
the  admirals  of  our  eaid  lord  the  king ;  and  in 
another  of  the  sud  accounts  or  lists,  the  said 
Francis  Henry  de  la  Motte  falsely,  wickedly; 
and  traiterously  notified,  disclosed,  and  re- 
vealed, to  the  said  enemies  of  our  said  lord 
the  king,  the  number,  names,  and  force  of  cer- 
tain ships  of^war  of  our  said  lord  the  kin^ 
then  in  certain  ports  of  our  said  lord  the  king, 
in  this  kingdom ;  and  the  state  and  condition, 
and  destination  of  the  same  ships  of  war:  and 
in  another  of  the  said  accounts  or  lists,  he  the 
said  Francis  Henry  de  la  Motte  fidsely,  wick- 
edly,, aind  traiterouslv  notified,  disclosed,  and 
revealed,  to  the  said  enemies  of  our  saia  lord 
the  king,  the  times  of  the  sailing  and  destine 
tion  of  divers  other  ships  of  war  of  our  said 
lord  the  king,  which  had  lately  before  thtft 
time  sailed  from  this  kingdom ;  and  ako  the 
number,  state,  conditiDn,  and  force  of  divert 
othet  ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  |he  king; 
then  in  tne  ports  of  this  kingdom :  and  in 
another  of  the  said  accounts  oi  hats,  he  the 
sud  Francis  Henry  de  la  Motie  falsely,  wick« 
edly,  and  traitorously  notified,  disdoaed,  and 
revealed,  to  the  said  enemies  of  our  said  lord 
the  king,  the  stations  of  divers  ships  and  ves- 
sels of  our  said  lord  the  king,  then  cruizing 
against  the  enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  king : 
and  afterwards,  and  during  the  said  war,  to 
wit,  on  the  said  1st  day  of  August,  in  the  90dft 
year  aforesaid,  at  the  parish  iSbremd,  in  the 
county  of  Middlesex  aforesaid,  he  the  said 
Francis  Henry  de  la  Motte,  as  such  hhe  trai- 
tor as  aforesaid,  in  prosecution  of  his  said  trea- 
son and  treasonable  purposes  afbreaud,  fidae- 
ly,  wickedly,  and  traitorously  composed  and 
wrote,  and  caused  and  procured  to  be  oonft* 
posed  and  wrote,  an  account,  or  stale,  to  be 
sent  to  certain  subjects  of  tne  said  Frenda 
king,  in  parts  beyond  the  seasj^  then  and  yet 
enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  kmg ;  in  whidi 
aaid  account,  or  state,  the  said  Francis  Henry 
de  la Motlenotified,  disclosed,  and  revwled 


eos} 


Jtrr  ifigk .  TrwMn* 


A4*V.HBU 


[69* 


to  tbe  Mi'eiMtoies  of  our. said  lood  the  kin^, 
the  QUDnbor  of  the  naa^  ioi!ce8  of  our  said 
lord  the  kiiig»  employed  in  pFosecuting  and 
earryin^  on  the  said  war,  under  the  commaad 
of  ceilain  admirals  of  our  said  lord  the  king: 
tod  afterwards,  and  during  tbe  said  war,  to 
mXf  on  the  9th  day  of  August,  in  the  SOth  year 
aforesaid,  at  the  jparish  a^esaid,  in  the  county 
of  Middlesex  aroresai^),  he  the  said  Francis 
Henry  de  la  Motte,^  as  such  false  traitor  as 
aforesaid,  in  prosecution  of  his  said  treason 
and  treasonable  purposes  aforesaid^  &lsety, 
wickedly,   and   traitorously  composed    and 
vrrot^  and  caused  and  procured  to  be  compos- 
ed and  wrote,  a  certain  other  letter,  to  be  sent 
to  certain  subjects  of  the  said  French  king,  in 
ports  beyond  the  aeas^  and  then  and  yet  ene- 
tnies  of  otir  said  lord  the  kin^;  in  wmch  said 
last  mentioned  letter,  the  said  Francis  Henry- 
de  la,  Motte,  (among  other  things)'  falsely, 
wickedly,  and  traitoiously  notified,  disclosed, 
and  revealed,  to  the  said  enemies  of  our  said 
lord  the  king,  that  certain  ships  of  war  of  our 
njd  lord  .the  kii^  had  thep  lately  sailed  to  re- 
inforce a  squadron  of  ships  of  war  of  our  said 
locd  the  king,  under  the  command  of  the  said 
Francis  Geaiy,  then  being  one  of  the  admirals 
of  our  ^d  lord  the  king;   and  thatcectain 
other  ships  of  w;ar  of  our  said  lord  the  king, 
weretheo  preparing  to  join  the  said  squadron; 
and  that  eertaaa  other  ships  of  war  ofour  said 
lord  the  king,  had  sailed  under  the  command 
of  Murray,  esq.  then  being  one  of  the 

ofiBcers  in  the  navy  of  our  said  lord  the  king, 
and  the  place  of  the  destination  thereof:  and 
afterwards,  and  during  the  said  war,  to  wit, 
on  the  5th  day  of  Septeniber,  in  the  30th  year 
aforesaid,  at .  the  parish  aforesaid,  in  the 
county  of  Middlesex  aforesaid,  he  the  said 
Francis  Heniy  de  la  Motte,  as  such  false  tirai- 
tor  as  aforesaid,  in  prosecution  of  his  said  trea- 
son and  treasonable  purposes  aforesaid,  false* 
ly,  wickedly,  and  traitorously  composed  and 
wrote,  and  caused  and  procured  to  be  compos- 
ed and  wrote,  a  certain  other  account,  to  be 
sent  to  certain  subjects  of  the  said  French 
king,  in  parts  beyond  tlie  seas,  then  and  yet 
enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  king;  in  which 
said  kst  mentioned  account,  the  said  Francis 
Henry  de  la  Motte  (among  other  thipgs) 
fidsely,  wickedjy,  and  traitorously  notified, 
disclosed,  and  revealed  to  the  said  enemies  of 
our  said  lord  the  king^  the  number  and  force 
of  the  ships  of  war  et  our  said  lord  the  king, 
then  being  in  certain  ports  within  this  king- 
dom, equipped  for  service ;  and  also«the  num- 
ber and  force  of  other  ships  of  war  ofour  said 
lord  the  king,  then  cruizing  against  the  ene- 
inies  of  our  said  l6rd  the  king,  under  the  com- 
mand of  Robert  Digbv,  esq.  then  being  one 
other  of  the  admirals  oi  our  said  lord  the  king ; 
ana  also  the  number  and  force  of  the  ships  of 
-war  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  then  repairing 
in  certain  ports  within  this  kmgdom ;  and  the 
times  when  certain  other  ships  or  vessels,  be- 
longing to  certain  subjects  ot  our  said  lord  the 
king,  were  ezpepted  to  mrive  in  this  kingdom, 


fiioiir  the  dnnioionfl  of  our  said  lord  the  king, 
and: other  places  in  parts  beyond  the  seas; 
and  the  times  when  certain  other  ships  or  ves^ 
sels,  belongins  to  certain  other  subjects  of  onr 
said  lord  the  king,  were  thm  expected  to  sail 
from  this  kinedom  to  Uie  dommions  of  our 
said  lord  the  king,  and  other  places  in  parts 
bei^ond.the  seas:  and  afterwards,  axid  during 
the  said  war,  to. wit,  on  the  17th  day  of  No- 
vember, in  the  itst  year  of  the  reign  of  our 
said  lord  the  kine,  at  the  paosh  aforesaid,  in 
the  county  of  Middlesex  aforesud,  he  tbe  said 
Francis  Henry  de  la  Motte,  as  such  false  trai- 
tor as  aforesaid,  in  prosecution  of  his  said  trea- 
son and  treasonable  purposes  aforesaid,  false- 
ly, wickedly,  and  traitorously  composed  and 
wrote,  and  caused  aad  procured  to  be  com- 
posed and  wTOto,  a  certain  other  letter,  to  be 
sent  to  certain  subjects  of  the  said  French 
king,  in  parts  b^nd  the  seas,  then  and  yet 
enemies  ofour  said  lord  the  king ;  in  which 
said  last  mentioned  letter,  the  said  Francis 
Henry  de  la   Motte,  (among  other  things) 
falsely,  wickedly,  and  traitorously  notified,  ms- 
closed,and  revved  to  the  said  enemies  of  our 
said  lord  the  king,  the  time  when  a  sqimdrmn 
of  ships  of  war.  of  our  said  lonl  the  kii^, 
under  the  command  of  George  Darb^,  esq. 
.then  being  one  of  the  admirab  ofour  said  lord 
the  king,  and  tiien  employed  in  prosecuting 
and  carrying  on  the  saia  war,  was  expected  to 
return  to  tms  kingdom  c  and  afterwards,  and 
during  the  said  war,  to  wit,  on  the  said  17  th 
day  of  November,  in  the  Slst  year  aforesaid, 
at  the  parish  foresaid,  in  the  county  of  Mid* 
dlesex  aforesaid,  he  the  said  Francis  Uenry  de 
la  Motte,  as  such  false  traitor  as  aforesaid,  in 
prosecution  of  his  said  treason  and  treasonable 
purposes  aforesaid,  falsely,  wickedly,  and  trai- 
torously composed  and  wrote,  and  caused  and 
procured  to  be  composed  and  wrote,  a  certain 
account,  to  be  sent  to  certain  subjects  of  the 
said  French  king,  iu  oarts  beyond  the  seas, 
then  and  yet  enemies  ot  our  said  lord  the  king ; 
in  which  said  last  mentioned  account,  the 
said  Francis  Henry  de  la  Motto,  (among  other 
things)  falsely*  wickedly,,  and  traitorously  no- 
tifiec^  disclosed,  and  revealed  to  the  said  ene- 
mies of  our  said  lord  the  king,  tbe  number  of  the 
land  and  sea  forces  of  our  said  lord  the  king  in 
this  kinedom,  and  other  the  dominions  oi  our 
said  lord  the  king  beyond  the  seas ;   and  also 
the  number  of  seamen  in  the  service  of  our 
said  lord  the  king :   and  afterwards,  and  dur- 
ing the  said  war,  to  ^it,  on  the  1st  day  of  De- 
cember, in  the  21st  year  aforesaid,  at  the 
parish  aforesaid,  in  the  county  of  Middlesex 
aforesaid,  he  the  said  Francis  Henry  de  la 
Motte,  as  such  false  traitor,  as  aforesaid,  in 
prosecution  of  his  said  treason  and  treasonable 
purposes  aforesaid,  falsely,  wickedly,  and  trai- 
torously composed  and  wrote,  and  caused  and 
procured  to  be  composed  and  wrote,  a  certain 
other  letter,  to  be  sent  to  certain  subjects  of 
the  said  French  king,  in  parts  beyond  the 
seas,  then  and  yet  enemies  ot  our  saia  lord  the 
long ;  in  which  said  last  mentioned  letter,  th? 


085] 


81  OEOKOE  m. 


Trid  qfV.  H.Dth  MoUe, 


im 


said  Francis  Homy  de  la  Motte,  ftlaeljr,  viofc- 
edly,  and  traitoroudy  notified,  disctoaadand 
jcvealed  (among  other  things]^  to  the  aaid 
eneiEues  of  our  said  loid  the  lung,  the  time 
pf  the  sailing  of  a  squadron  of  ships  ^ 
war,  of  our  said  lard  the  kins,  under  the 
iDommand  of  sir  Samuel  H/aioa,  then  being 
Ojpe  of  the  admiralB  of  our  said  lord  the 
l^ng,  from  this  kingdom,  and  the  destina- 
tion of  the  said  squadron :  and  the  said  Francis 
liepiy  de  la  Motte,  on  the  same  day  and  year 
last  mentioned,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in  the 
£Ounty  of  Middlesea  albresaid,  in  prosecution 
nf,  and  to  promote  his  treason,  iaaaginations, 
and  compassings  aforesaid,  wisely,  wickedly, 
and  traitorously  did  send,  and  procure  to  be 
sent,  all  and  singular  the  said  several  letters, 
instniotioDS  in  writing,  accounts  or  lists,  and 
accounts  or  states  herein  before  mentioned  to 
Jiave  been  wrote  and  composed,  and  caused 
and  procured  to  have  been  wrote  and  compos- 
ed, by  him  the  said  Fiands  Henry  de  U 
Motto,  torn  the  paiish  ain-esaid,  in  the 
founty  of  Middlesex  aforesaid,  to  be  delivered 
in  parts  beyond  the  seas,  to  scFeral  subjects  of 
the  said  French  kinff,  then  and  yet  being  ene- 
piies  of  cur  said  lord  the  king :  and  thsft,  dur*- 
mg  the  said  war.  to  wit,  on  the  80th  day  of 
June,  in  the  SOth  year  aforesaid,  at  the  parish 
^foresaid,  in  the  coun^  of  Middlesex  aforesaid, 
the  said  Francis  Henry  de  k  Motto,  as  such 
&lse  traitor  as  aforeeaid,  and  in  prosecution 
of  his  said  treason  and  treasonable  purposes 
foresaid,  fiilaely,  wickedly,  and  traitorously 
did  retain,  hire,  and  procure,  and  cause  to  be 
retained,  hired,  and  procured  one  Stephen  Rat- 
difie^  thcai  and  there  being  the  master  of  a 
^^ertain  ship  or  vessel,  to  carry  and  convey,  in 
tlie  said  ship  or  vessel,  fit>ra  this  kingdom  to 
the  kingjdom  of  France,  and  there  to  deliver 
to  certain  subjects  of  the  said  French  king, 
Ihen  and  yet  enemies  of  our  said  lord  the 
^ng,  certain  letters  and  instructions,  in  writ- 
to  inform  Uie  sakl  French  kin^  and  his 

aects,  then  and  yet  enemies  of  our  ssud 
the  kmg,  of  the  state,  conditicm,  destina- 
tion, and  stations  of  the  naval  and  miUtaiy 
forces  of  this  kingdom ;  and  other  advice  and 
inteUigence,  to  enable  and  assist  the  uid 
French  king  and  his  subjects  in  the  prosecu- 
tion and  carrying  on  of  the  said  war  against 
our  said  lord  the  king  and  his  subjects.  And 
the  iurors  aforesaid,  upon  their  oath  aforesaid, 
further  present,  that  during  the  said  war,  to 
wit,  on  the  5th  day  of  January,  in  the  S  1st 
year  aforesaid,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in  tiie 
county  of  Middlesex  aforesaid,  he  the  said 
Francis  Henry  de  la  Motte,  as  such  folse  trai- 
tor as  aforesaid,  in  further  prosecution  of  his 
said  treasqn  and  treasonable  purposes  afore- 
said, secretly^  knowingly,  unlawfully,  and 
traitorously  *  did  obtain,  procure,  and  get  into 
his  hands,  custody,  and  possession,  divers  ac- 
counts, in  writing,  of  the  number  and  names 
of  the  ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  king, 
then  beiQ^  at  a  place  called  8pithead,  near 
Port3ano)itn  aforesaid,  in  |1ie  wid  county  oif 


■ft  ipa  iMMQttr  Of 
ad[<^ 


and  idso 
Portsmouth  afoneeU ;  aad  <^  the  state  «id 
condition  of  seveid  ot  ^  said  Mps,  and  of 
the  destination  of  some  ef  the  said  stups,  aad 
for  wfau  time  some  of  the  said  ships  wieme  vie* 
tindled,  and  in  what  services  some  of  the  aaid 
shipswere  then  expected  to  be  employed;  and 
of  the  number  and  names  of  a  squadron  of  the 
shqpa  of  war  of  our  ssud  lord  the  king,  then 
shcmy  expected  to  sail  from  the  sain  Jdngu 
dom,  under  the  command  of  George  John- 
ston, esq.  then  beine  one  of  the  omcira  ia 
the  navy  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  and  of  the 
time  for  which  the  said  squadron  was  victnat* 
kd,  and  of  certaki  regimente  of  the  araiQr  ef 
our  said  lord  the  king,  then  exnected  tn  be 
taken  to  sea  in  the  said  squadroin;   and  atev 
of  the  state  and  condition  of  diveM  slhipB  of 
war  ef  our  said  lord  the  king,  in  parts  beyond 
the  seas;  and  also  ef  certam  ships  of  uter  e# 
our  said  lord  the  kmg,  employed  in  cniind# 
against  the  enemies  of  this  kingdom  ;  an^^ 
the  service  in  which  the  said  Ships  w^re  96 
emptoyed;  in  order,  and  with  uitent,  to  s^iid, 
and  cause  to  be  sent,  the  same  accounted  en^ 
the  substance  and  contents  ihereixf ^  to  eiMedtf 
snbyecis  ef  the  said  French  kbt^  Amu  «M 
yet  being  enemies  of  our  said  lorn  the  kjk^i 
and  for  that  purpose,  he  the  said  Fhm& 
Henry  de  la  Motie,  afWrwards,  to  vrki  on  Hid 
same  dat  and  year  last  above  mentiened^  «t 
the  parish  aforesaid,  in  the  coun^  of  MkMfe- 
sex  albresaid,  falsely,  wickedly,  and  traitorocis- 
1t  did  carry  and  convey  the  said  aoeottnt9  to 
the  dwellins-house  of  one  Richard  Otiey,  ai- 
tuate  in  the  parish  ^resaid,  m   the  aaid 
county  of  Middlesex.    And  the  jurors  afei^ 
said,  upon  their  oath  aforesaid,  further  pre- 
sent, that  during  the  said  war,  to  wit,  on  the 
said  11th  day  of  January,  m  the  90th  y^ar 
aforesaid,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in  tlie  sidd 
comity  of  Middlesex,  he  the   said  Franda 
Henry  de  la  Motte,  as  such  false  traitor  aa 
aforesaid,  in  further  prosecution  of  hi^  said 
treason  and  treasonaole  purposes  afobeeaid, 
unlawfoliy  and  traitorously  old  rettdn,  hire, 
and  employ  one  Heniy  Lutterloh,  to  obtein 
accounts  and  intelligence  of  the  ships  ef  wnr 
of  our  said  lord  the  king,  which  should  sail 
from  Spithead  aforesaid,  and  of  the  times  of 
sailin£,  and  the  names,  force,  and  destination 
of  such  ships  of  war ;  and  also  of  the  airivml 
at  Spithead  aforesaid,  of  such  ships  of  war  of 
our  said  lord  the  kine,  as  should  arrive  at 
Spithead  aforesaid ;  ana  also  of  such  ships  of 
war  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  as  should  be  in 
the  harbour  of  Portsmouth  aforesud ;  vnd  of 
the  state,  conditicm,  and  force  of  such  ships; 
and  of  the  times  when  such  ships  were  ex- 
pected to  sail;  and  also  of  the  limei  afiiJi 
such  ships  should  sail ;  and  the  destinaljeft  ef 
such  ships;  and  to  communicate  su^  ^kew 
counts  and  intelligence  to  the  said  IVaneta 
Henr^  de  la  Motte,  in  order  that  h^  the  siJd 
Fhmds  de  la  Motte,  might  send  and)  account^ 
anil  intetKgerice  to  the  8Dl:(iccte  iif  thUe  aaM 
French  kin|,  tfienand  yet  Mi^  etiteiaa  of 


HffT] 


for  High  'Tretuon, 


A.  D.  178L 


l«9S 


Mr  taid  \we6fM  lord  th&  kifi^.    And  tlie  ju- 
rors afbresidd,  upon  their  oa&  aforesaid,  mr* 
tfaer  present,  that  cKiring  the  said  war,  to  wit, 
<mtlf&  said  5th  day  of  January,  in  the  91st 
year  aforesaid,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in  the 
said  county  of  Middlesex,  he  the  said  Francis 
Henry  do  la  Motte^  as  such  false  traitor  as 
aforesaid,  and  in  further  prosecution  of  his 
treason  aiid  treasonable  purposes  aforesaid, 
&lsely,  wickedly,  and  traitorously  did  retain, 
hire,  and  employ  the  said  Henry  Lutterloh,  to 
obtain  inforinauon  and  intelligence  of  the  sail- 
ing of  a  scjuadron  of  ships  of  war  of  our  said 
lord  the  kinf,  then  shortly  expected  to  sul 
from  SpitheM  aforesaid,  under  the  command 
of  the  said  €reorge  Johnston,  then  being  one 
of  the  officers  m  the  navy  of  our  said  lora  the 
king,  and  of  the  time  when  such  squadron 
should  saO,  and  of  the  number  and  rorce  of 
the  ships  of  such  squadron ;  and  immediately 
to  send,  and  cause  to  be  sent,  such  informa- 
tion and  intelligence,  to  certain  subjects  of  the 
Sttd  French  kitig,then  and  yet  being  enemies 
of  our  said  lord  the  kins,  against  the  duty  of 
^le  allegiance  of  him  the  said  Francis  Henry 
de  la  Motte,  and  against  the  peace  of  our 
said  present  sorereign  lord  the  king,   his 
down,  apd  dignity^  and  also  against  the 
form  of  the  statute  m  such  case  made  and 
provided.— *-—5fc<m(/  Count.     And  the  said 
jurors,   for    our   said   sovereign    lord    the 
jjng,  upon  their  said  oath,  fwther  oresent* 
that  an  open  and  public  war,  on  tine  said 
ilth  day  or  January,  in  the  90th  year  of  the 
leign  of  our  said  sovereign  lord  Oeom  the 
third,  by  the  grace  of  Gt3,  of  Great  £itain. 
Trance,  and  Ireland,  king,  defender  of  the 
foith,  and  so  forth,  and  Ions  before,  and  ever 
since,  hitherto,  by  land  and  by  sea,  was  and 
yet  is  barried  on  and  prosecuted  by  Lewis  the 
French  king,  a«dnst  our  most  serene,  illus- 
trious, and  excDleDt  prince,  our  said  lord  the 
now  king ;  and  that  the  said  Francis  Henry 
Be  la  Motte,  a  subject  of  our  said  lord  the 
lung,  of  his  kingdom  of  Great  Britain,  well 
knowing  the  premises,  not  having  the  fear  of 
God  in  his  heart,  nor  weighing  the  duty  of 
his  allegiance,  but  being  moved  and  seduced 
by  the  mstigation  of  the  devil,  as  a  false  trai- 
tor against  our  said  most  serene,  illustrious, 
and  excellent  prince,  George  the  third,  now 
Jdn^  of  Great  Britain,  &cc,  and  contriving, 
ancTwith  all  his  stren^  intending,  the  peace 
and  common  tranquility  of  this  kingdom  of 
Great  Britain  to  disquiet,  molest,  and  disturb, 
the  government  of  our  said  present  sovereign 
lord  the  king  of  this  kingdom  of  Great  Bri- 
tain to  change,  subvert,  and  alter,  he,  the  said 
Frauds  Henry  De  la  Motte,  during  the  war 
aforesaiid,  to  wit,  on  the  said  llth  oay  of  Ja- 
nuary, in  the  20th  year  aforesaid,  and  on 
divers  other  days  and  times,  as  well  before  as 
after  that  day,  with  force  and  arms,  at  the 
said  parish  of  St.  George,  Hanover-square,  in 
the  said  county  of  Middlesex,  unlawfully  and 
traitonmsly  was  adhering,  aiding,  and  com- 
jorti&g,  to  the  said  Lewis  the  French  kifig, 


and  his  subjects^  then  boins  eaemios  tf  ma 
eM  present  sovereioi lord  oie  king;  «nd,  m 
the  prosecutiOTi,  pemrmanoe^  and  emttaHum 
of  tne  said  traitorous  adhenng  of  «li«  mUL 
Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte  to  the  saa4  Lewis 
the  French  kmg,  and  his  subjects,  siwQ  being 
enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  present  king,  he^ 
the  said  Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte,  aa  soeh 
false  traitor,  during  the  war  aforesaid^  to  wit, 
on  the  said  llth  day  of  January,  in  theflOtk 
year  aforesaid,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  hi  the 
said  county  of  Middlesex,  &kelv,  wieke^yy' 
alnd  traitorously  did  compose  and  write,  and 
cause  to  be  composed  and  wrote,  divers  other 
letters  and  instructions  in  writing,  to  ^ew 
and  inform  the  said  French  king  and  his  sub- 
jeets,  then  and  yet  enemies  of  our  said  pre- 
sent lord  the  kms,  of  the  state,  condition, 
and  force  of  several  of  the  ships  of  war  of  out- 
said  lord  the  king,  and  of  the  number  of  the 
ships  and  forces  of  our  said  lord  the  king, 
then  and  there  designed  and  prepared  for  the 
defence  of  this  kingdom,  ana  the  enemies  of 
the  said  kingdom  to  attack,  repel,  and  resist ' 
and  how  some  of  the  ships  of  war  of  our  saia 
lord  the  king  were  manned,  and  for  what 
time  divers  ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the 
king  were  furnished  with  provisions ;   and  of 
the  statioils  of  divers  sqtuidrons  of  ships  of 
war  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  employed  in 
prosecuting  and  carrying  on  the  said  war; 
and  the  names  of  the  commanders  of  such 
squadrons,  and  the  number  and  force  of  the 
ships  of  war  of  which  such  squadrons  con- 
sisted ;  and  also  of  the  service  in  which  divers 
other  ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  king 
were  then  employed  in  prosecuting  and  carry- 
ing on  the  said  war ;  and  also  me  number 
and  force  of  the  ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord 
the  king  within  certain  ports  of  this  kingdom, 
and  of  the  state  and  condition  of  several  of 
the  said  ships ;    and  of  the  numbers  of  the 
land  forces  of  our  said  lord  the  king  in  this 
kingdom,  and  the  dominions  thereunto  be- 
longing ;    and  of  the  times  of  the  sailing  of 
divers  ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  king, 
atid  the  destination  of  the  said  ships,  and  the 
service;^  in  which  such  ships  were  employed, 
alkid  of  the  times  when  other  ships  of  war  of 
our  said  lord  the  king  were  then  expected  to 
sail   from  thb  kingdom,  and  the  voyages, 
cruizes,  and  services  upon  which  sitch  smps 
were  sailed ;    and  also  of  the  times  vribten 
other  ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  king, 
ensployea  in  the  prosecution  and  carrying  on 
of  the  said  war,  were  expected  to  arrive  in 
this  kingdom ;   and  also  of  th^  tnnes  of  the 
sailing  of  several  ships  and  vessels,  belonging 
to  divers  subjects  of  our  said  lord  the  king, 
from  this  kin^om  to  the  dominions  of  our 
said  lord  the  kmg,  and  other  places,  in  parts 
beyond  the  seas ;  and  also  of  the  times  wheQ 
other  ships  and  vessels,  belongmg  to  divers 
other  subjects  of  our  said  lord  tne  fcki^  were 
expected  to  sufl  from  this  kingdom  to  tkt  Bxh* 
minioos  of  our  said'  lord  the  king,  and  other 
placea,  in  parts  beifcmd  ^0ke  seii ;  laid'  jtbo  of 


699] 


21  GEORGE  III. 


Trial  of  F.  H.  De  la  Motte, 


[700 


the  times  when  other  <  ships  and  vesBeU  of 
divers  other  subjects  of  our  said  lord  the  king 
were  expected  to  arrive  in  this  kingdom,  from 
the  ddxmnions  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  and 
otheif  places  beyond  the  seas :  and  that  afler^ 
wards,  and  dunng  the  said  war,  to  wit,  on  the 
11th  day  of  January,  in  the  30th  year  afore* 
sud,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in  the  county  of 
Middlesex  aforesaid,  he,  the  said  Francis 
Henry  De  la  Motte,  as  such  false  traitor  as 
jibresaid,  in  prosecution  of  his  said  treason, 
and  treasonable  adhering,  and  purposes  afore- 
said, &lsely,  wickedly,  and  traitorously  com- 
fosed  and  wrote,  and  caused  and  prociu-ed  to 
e  composed  and  wrote,  a  certain  letter  to  be 
sent  to  cert^n  subjects  of  tlie  said  French 
lung  in  parts  beyond  the  seas,  then  and  yet 
enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  king ;  in  which 
said  letter  the  said  Francis  Henry  De  la 
'  Motte,  amongst  otlier  things,  wickedly,  ^dse- 
]y,  and  tnuiorously  noti&d,  disclosed,  and 
revealed  to  the  said  enemies  of  our  said  lord 
the  king,  that  certain,  regiments  of  the  army 
of  our  said  lord  the  king  were  preparing  to  go 
to  the  West  Indies ;  and  also  of  the  numl^ 
of  land  forces  of  our  said  lord  the  king  to  be 
sent  to  North  America  and  Canada;  and  of 
the  stations  of  divers  ships  of  war  of  our  said 
lord  the  king,  then  employed  in  prosecuting 
and  carrying  on  the  said  war  by  our  said  l<v^ 
the  king  against  the  said  Lewis  the  French 
king:  and  afterwards,  and  during  the  said 
war,  to  wit,  on  the  30th  day  of  June,  in  the 
SOth  year  aforesaid,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in 
the  county  of  Middlesex  aforesaid,  he,  the 
said  Francis  Henry  De  la  MoUe,  as  such  false 
traitor  as  aforesaid,  in  prosecution  of  his  said 
treason,  and  treasonable  adhering,  and  pur- 
poses aforesud,  falsely,  wickedly,  and  traitor- 
ously composed  and  wrote,  and  caused  and 
procured  to  be  composed  and  wrote,  a  certain 
other  letter,  to  be  sent  to  certain  subjects  of 
the  said  French  king,  in  parts  beyond  the 
seas,  then  and  yet  enemies  of  our  said  lord 
the  king ;  in  which  said  last-mentioned  letter 
the  saidFrancis  Henry  De  la  Motte,  among 
othec  things,  wickedly,  falsely,  and  traitor- 
ously notified,  disclosed,  and  revealed  to  the 
said  enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  that 
sir  Georee  Brydges  Rodney,  hart,  then  being 
one  of  the  admirals  of  our  said  lord  Uie  king, 
was  at  the  island  of  Barbadoes,  in  parts  be- 

i^ond  the  seas,  with  fourteen  ships  ot  our  said 
ord  the  king,  part  of  «  souadron^f  ships  of 
war  of  our  said  lord  the  &ing,  employed  in 
prosecuting  and  carrying  on  the  said  war, 
under  the  command  of  the  said  sir  George 
Brydges  Rodney,  being  such  admiral  as  afore- 
said ;  and  that  seven  other  ships  of  war  of 
our  said  lord  the  king,  other  pari  of  the  said 
squadron,  kept  at  sea ;  and  tnat  uiher  ships 
of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  other  part  of 
the  said  squadron,  were  under  repair  at  St. 
Lucia,  in  parts  beyond  the  seas;  and  also 
that  Franas  Geai^,esq.  then  being  one  other 
of  the  admirals  of  our  said  lord  \he  kin^  was 
cruizing,  with  a  squadron  of  other  ships  of 


war  of  our  saud  loid  the  king,  between  the 
ScUly  islands  and  Ushant;   and  that  certain 
ships  and  vessels  were  getting  ready  with  pro- 
visions for  the  said  squadron ;  and  that  a  cer- 
tain ship  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  king, 
called  the  Marlborough,  had  sailed  from  Spit- 
head  on  Tuesday  then  last  past,  to  join  the 
said  squadron ;   and  that  certain  other  ships 
of  war  of  our  said  lord  ,the  king,  employed  in 
prosecuting  and  carrying  on  of  the  said  war, 
were  off  Cherburgh,   m    the   kingdom,  of 
France :  .and  afterwards,  and  during  the  said 
war,  to  wit,  on  the  1st  day  of  August,  in  the 
2pth  year  aforesaid,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in 
the  county  of  Middlesex  aforesaid,  he,  the 
said   Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte,  as  such 
false  traitor  as  s^foresaid,  in  prosecution  of  his 
said  treason,  and  treasonable  adhering,  and 
purposes  aforesaid,  falsely,  wickedly,  ana  trai- 
torously composed  and  wrote,  and  caused  and 
procured  to  be  composed  and  wrote,  certain 
accounts,  or  hsts,  to  be  sent  to  certain  sub* 
jects  of  the  said  French  king  in  parts  bevond 
the  seas,  then  and  yet  enemies  ofour  said  lor4 
the  king;    in  one  of  which  said  account^ 
or  lists,  the  said  Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte, 
wisely,  wickedly^  and  traitorously  notifbed, 
disclosed,  and  revealed  to  the  said  enemies 
of  our  said  lord  the  king,  tb^  number,  force, 
and  station,  of  a  certain  sqi^ron  .of  ships  of 
war  of  our  said  lord  the  kmg,  then,  .employed 
in  prosecuting  and  carrying  on  the  said  war, 
under  the  command    of  the   said   Francis 
Geary,  then  being  ,one  of  the  admirals  of  our 
said  lord  the  king ;  and  in  another  of  the  said 
accounts,  or  lists,  the  said  Francis  Henry  De 
la  Motte,  falsely,  wickedly,  and  traitorously 
notified,  disclosed,  and  revealed  to  the  said 
enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  the  num- 
ber, names,  and  force,  of  certain  ships  of  war 
ofour  said  lord  the  king,  then  in  certain  ports 
ofour  said  lord  the  king  in  this  kingdom,  and 
the  state,  condition,  and  destination^  of  the 
same  ships  of  war ;  and  in  another  of^the  said 
accounts,  or  lists,  be,  (he  said  Francis  Henry 
De  la  Motte,  falsely,  wickedly,  and  traitorous- 
ly notified,  disclosed,  and  revealed  to  the  said 
enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  the  times 
of. the  sailing  and  destination  of  divers  other 
ships  of  war  ofour  said  lord  the  kin^,  which 
had  lately  before  that  time  sailed  from  this 
kingdom;  and  also  the  number,  state,  condi* 
tion,  and  force,  of  divers  other  ships. of  war  of 
our  said  lord  the  king,  then  in  the  ports  of 
this  kingdom  ;  and  in  another  of  tlie  said  ac» 
counts,  or  lists,  he,  the  said  Francis  Henry 
De  la  Motte,  falsely,  wickedly,  and  traitor- 
ously notified,  disclosed,  and  revealed  to  the 
,  said  enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  the 
stations  of  divers  ships  and  vessels  ofour  said 
lord  the  king,  then  cruizing  against  the  ene- 
mies of  our  said  lord  the  king :    and  after- 
wards, and  during  the  said  war,  to  wit,  on  the 
said  1st  day  of  August,  in  the  80th  year  afore- 
said, at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in  the  county  of 
Middlesex   aforesaid,   he,   the  said  Francis 
Heniy  De  la  Motte,  as  such  false  traitor  49 


I. 


'roi] 


Jir  High  Treason* 


Aforesaid,  in  prosecutioD  of  his  said  treason,  { 
and  treasonable  adhering,  and  purposes  I 
aforesaid,  falsely,  wickedly,  and  traitorously  ' 
composed  and  wrote,  and  cansed  or  procured 
to  be  composed  and  wrote,  an  account,  or 
state,  to  be  sent  to  certain  subjects  of  the  said 
French  king  in  parts  beyond  the  seas,  then 
and  yet  enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  king ;  in 
which  »aid  acScount,  or  state,  the  said  Frnnds 
Henry  De  la  Motte  notified,  disclosed,  and  re- 
vealed to  the  said  enemies  of  our  said  lord  the 
king,  the  number  of  the  naval  forces  of  our  said 
lorcTthe  king,  employed  in  prosecuting  and 
carrying  on  the  said  war,  under  the  command 
of  certain  admirals  of  our  said  lord  the  king : 
and  afterwards,  and  during  the  said  war,  to 
wit,  on  the  9th  day  of  August,  in  the  30th 
year  aforesaid,  at  the  parisn  aforesaid,  in  the 
county  of  Middlesex  aforesaid,  he,  the  said 
Francis  Heniy  De  la  Motte,  as  such  fsdse 
tnutor  as  aforesaid,  in  prosecution  of  his  said 
treason,  and  treasonable  adhering,  and  pur- 
poses aforesaid,  falselv,  wickedly,  and  trai- 
torously composed  and  wrote,  and  caused  and 
procured  to  be  composed  and  wrote,  a  certain 
other  letter,  to  be  sent  to  certiun  subjects  of 
the  said  French  king,  in  partd  beyond  the 
seas,  then  and  yet  enemies  of  our  said  lord 
the  kin^ ;  in  which  said  last  mentioned  letter, 
the  said  Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte,  (among 
other  things^  falsely,  wickedly,  and  traitorous- 
ly notified,  disclosed,  and  revoiled  to  the  said 
enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  that  certain 
ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  tne  king  had 
then  lately  sailed  to  reinforce  a  squadron  of 
ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  under 
the  command  of  the  said  Francis  Geaiy,  then 
being  one  of  the  admirals  of  our  sud  lord  the 
king ;  and  that  certain  other  ships  of  war  of 
our  said  lord  the  king  were  then  pre- 
paring to  join  the  said  squadron ;  and 
that  certain  other  ships  of  war  of  our  said 
lord  the  king  had  sailed  under  the  command 
of  Murray,  esq.  then  being  one 

of  the  officers  in  the  navy  of  our  ssdd  lord  the 
king,  and  the  place  of  thie  destination  thereof: 
and  aflerwards,  and  during  the  said  war,  to 
wit,  on  the  5th  day  of  September,  in  the  80th 
year  aforesaid,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in  the  | 
county  of  Middlesex  aforesaid,  he  the  said  ■ 
Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte,  as  such  fsdse  { 
traitor  as  aforesaid,  in  prosecution  of  his  said  , 
treason  and  treasonable  adhering,  and  pur- 
poses aforesaid,  &lsely,  wickedly,  and  trai- 
torously composed  and  wrote,  and  caused  and 
procured  to  be  composed  and.  wrote,  a  certain 
other  account,  to  be  sent  to  certain  subiects 
or  the  said  French  king,  in  parts  beyond  the 
seas,  then  and  }]et  enemies  of  our  said  lord 
the  kine;  in  which  said  last  mentioned  ac- 
count, Uie.said  Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte, 
(among  other  thines)  falsely,  wickedly,  and 
trutorously  notified,  disclosed,  and  revealed, 
to  the  said  enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  king, 
Ahe  number  and  force  of  the  ships  of  war  of 
our  said  lord  the  kins,  then  being  in  certain 
ports   wttbin  this   kingdom,^  equipped    for 


^  A.  D.  1781.  L7(kr 

service;  and  also  the  number  and  force  of 
other  ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  king^ 
then  cruizing  against  the  enemies  of  our  said 
lord  the  kipg,  under  the  command  of  Robert 
Digby,  esq.  then  being  one  other  of  the  ad- 
mirals of  our  said  lord  tiie  king;  and  also  thm 
number  and  force  of  the  ships  of  war  of  our 
said  lord  the  king,  then  repairing  in  certain 
ports  within  this  kingdom;  and  the  times 
when  certain  other  ships  or  vessels,  belonging 
to  certain  subjects  of  our  said  lord  the  kmg^ 
were   expected  to  arrive  in  this  kingdon^ 
from  the  dominions  of  our  said  lord  the  king^ 
and  other  places,  in  parts  beyond  the  seas ; 
and  the  times  when  certain  other  ships  or 
vessels,  belonging  to  certain  other  subjects'  of 
our  said  lord  Uie^kine,  were  then  expected  to 
sail  from  this  ]ung(U>m  to  the  dominions  of 
our  said  lord  the  king,  and  other  places^  in 
parts  beyond  the  seas^  and  aflerwards,  during 
the  said  war^  to  wit,  on  the  17th  day  of  No- 
vember, in  the  fSlst  year  of  the  reign  of  our 
said  jiord  the  king,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in 
the  county  of  Middlesex  atbresaid,  he  the  sakl 
Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte,  as  such  hhe 
traitor  as  aforesaid,  in  prosecution  of  his  said 
treason  and  treasonable'  adherii\g,  and  pur- 
poses aforesaid,  falselv,  wickedly,  and  trai- 
torously composed  andi  wrote,  and  caused  and 
procured  to  be  composed  and  wrote,  a  certain 
other  letter,  to  be  sent  to  certain  subjects  of 
the  said  l«rench  king,  in  parts  beyond  tfat 
seas,  then  and  yet  enemies  of  our  said  lord 
the  king ;  in  which  said  last  mentioned  letter, 
the  said  Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte,  ([among 
other  things)  falsely,  wickedly,  and  traitorous* 
ly  notified,  disclosed,  and  revealed,  to  the  said 
enemies  ot'  our  said  lord  the  king,  when  a 
squadron  of  ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the 
king,  under  the  command  of  George  Daurby, 
esq.  then  being  one  of  the  admiral^  of  our 
said  lord  the  king,  and  then  employed  in  pro- 
secuting; and  carrying  on  the  said  war,  was 
expected   to   return  to  this  kingdom:   and 
afterwards^  iind  during  the  said  war,  to  wit^ 
on  the  said  17th  day  of  November,  in  the 
21st  year  aforesaid,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in 
the  county  of  Middlesex  aforesaid,  he  the 
said  Francis  Henrv  De  la  Motte,  as  such  false 
traitor  as  aforesaid,  in  prosecution  of  his  said 
treason  and  treasonable  adhering,  and  pur^ 
poses  aforesaid,  falsely,  wickedly,  and  traitor- 
ously composed  and  wrote,  and  caused  and 
procured  to  be  composed  and  wrote,  a  certain 
account,  to  be  sent  to  certain  subjects  of  the 
said  French  king,  in  parts  beyond  the  seas, 
then  and  yet  enemies  of  our  said  lord  the 
king ;  in  which  said  last  mentioned  account, 
the  said  Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte,  ^Wong 
otlier  things)  falsely,  wickedly,  and  traitorous- 
ly notified,  disclosed,  and  revealed,  to  the  said 
enemies  of  our  said  lord  tlie  king,  the  number 
of  land  and  sea  forces  of  our  said  lord  the 
king,  in  this  kingdom,  and  other  the  domi^ 
nions  of  our  said  lord  tlie  king  beyond  the 
seas,  and  also  the  number  of  seamen  in  the 
seryico  of  QUr.said  lord  the  .king :  and  after* 


708] 


«1  GEOKOE  III. 


Tfid  afF.  H.  Dek  Motte, 


L70* 


intiii»y  aad  dmittg  the  sud  wstr,  to  wit,  tm  the 
j«id  tflC'darf  of  Deeember,  in  the.^lst  year 
afaflteidy  at  the  parish  aforesaid^  in  the  coun- 
ty i)f  Middlesex  aforesaid,  he  the  said  Francis 
Uttay  De  la  Motte,  as  such  'fedse  traitor  as 
idbrMid,  in  prosecation  of  his  said  treason 
sod  treasonable  adherkig,  and  purposes  afor&- 
nidi  &Iflely,  wickedly,  and  traitorously  com- 
vomA  and  wrote,  and  caused  and  procured  to 
lie  oomposed  and  wrote,  a  certain  other  letter, 
to  be  sent  to  certain  subjects  of  the  said 
freneh  king,  in  parts  beyond  the  seas,  then 
aad  vet  enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  king ; 
in  which  said  last  mentioned  letter,  the  said 
Francis  Henry  De  ke  Motte,  falsely,  wickedly, 
and  tcaitoroushf  notified,  disck)sed,  and  re- 
vealed (among  other  things)  to  the  said 
enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  the  time 
of  the  sailing  of  a  squadron  of  snips  of  war 
of  our  said  lord  the  king,  under  the  com> 
mand  of  sir  Samuel  Hood,  then  being  one 
i>f  the  admirals  of  our  said  k>rd  the  king, 
from  this  kinsdom,  and  the  destination  of 
the  said  smuaron.  Aad  the  sud  Francis 
Hennr  De  ia  Motte,  on  the  same  day  and 
year  out  mentioned,  at  the  parish  aibresaid, 
in  the  county  of  Middlesex  aforesaid,  in 
pfosec«lk>n  of  the  said  traitorous  adhering 
of  the  said  Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte  to 


the  sak!  Lewis  the  French  king,  and  his  sub- 
jects, enemies  of  our   said  lord  the  kin^ 
fiisely,  wickedly,  and  traitorously  did  send, 
and  procure  to  be  sent,  all  and  singular  the 
aaid  several  letters,  instructions  in  writing, 
acoouats  or  lists,  and  accounts  or  states, 
KereiD  before-nientk>ned  to  have  been  wrote 
and  composed,  and  caused  and  procured  to 
hanre  been  wrote  and  composed,  oy  him  the 
•aid  Francis  Henry  De  ki  Motte,  from  the 
parish  aforesaid,  in  the  county  of  Middlesex 
aforesaid,  to  be  delivered,  in  parts  beyond  the 
aeas/  to  several  subjects  of  the  said  French 
king^  then  and  yet  being  enemies  of  our  said 
lonl  the  king ;  aad  that  during  &e  said  war, 
to  wrt|  Oft  the  dOth  day  of  June,  in  the  20th 
year-aforesaid,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in  the 
oouBfty  of  Middlesex  aforesaid,  the  said  Francis 
Henry  De  la  Motte,  as  such  ialse  traitor  as 
aibresaid,  and  in  prosecution  of  his  said  trca- 
•on  and  treasonable  adhering,  and  purposes 
ateesaid,  &lsely,  wickedly,  and  traitorously 
^scttiin,  hire,  ^d  procure,  and  cause  to  be 
Dttained,  hired,  and  procured,  one  Stephen 
Bstel^,  ^en  and  there  being  the  master  of 
•  certain  ship  or  vessel,  to  cany  and  convey, 
in  the  said  snip  or  veasel,  from  this  kingdom 
to  the  kingdom  of  France,  and  there  todefivcr 
to.  eerfan  subjects  of  llie  said  French  king, 
then  and  yet  enemies  of  our  said  knrd  the 
king,  certain   letters    aad   instructions    in 
mvAmOf  to.  inform  the  said  French  king  and 
hb  sufi|ectBy  then  and  yet  enemies  of  our  said 
Ipid  tne  king,  of  the  states  condition,  destina- 
liDn,  aad  stations  of  the  naval  and  militsry 
pieces  of  this  kingdom,  and  other  advice  and 
JnteUifltaee,  to  enable  and  assist  the  said 
Ioench.ka[i9aadbi»«al^ect»  in  the  proseca- 


tion andicarrying  (m  of  the  said  war  agai<^it 
our  said  lord  the  king  and  hid  subjects*    And 
the  jurors  aforesaid,  upon  their  o^  aibre- 
said, iurther  present,  that  during  the  saui'war, 
to  wit,  on  the  5th  day  of  January,  in  the  31st. 
year  aforesaid,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in  the 
county  of  Middlesex  aforesaid,  he  the  said 
Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte,  as  such  &lse 
traitor  as  aforesaid,  in  further  prosecution  of 
his  said  treason  and  treasonable  adhering^  and 
purposes  aforesaid,  secretly,  knowingly,  un- 
lawfully, and  traitorously  did  obtain,  orocure, 
and  get  into  his  hands,  custody,  ana  posses- 
sion, divers  accounts,  in  writing,  of  the  num- 
ber and  names  of  the  ships  of  war  of  our  said 
lord  the  king,  then  beins  at  a  pkpce  called 
Spithead,  near  Portsniou^  aforesaid,  in  the 
said  CQuntv  of  Southampton,  and  also  in  the 
harbour  of  Portsmouth  aforesaid,  and  of  the 
state  aad  condition  of  several  of  the  said 
ships,  and  ot  the  destination  of  some  of  the 
saia  ships,  and  for  what  time  seme  of  the  said 
ships  were  victuaUed,  and  in  what  services 
some  of  the  said  ships  were  then  expected  to 
be  empfey^ ;  and  ol  the  number  and  names 
of  a  squadron  of  the  ships  of  war  of  our  said 
lord  the  kine,  then  shortly  expected  to  sail 
from  the  said  kingdom,  uader  the  command 
of  George  Johnston,  esq.  then  being  one  of 
the  officers  in  the  navy  of  our  said  lord  the 
king,  and  of  the  time  for  which  the  said 
squadron  was  vicbialled ;  and  of  certain  regi- 
ments of 'the  amsy  of  our  said  lord  the  kins^ 
then  expected  to  be  taken  to  sea  in  the  saS 
squadron ;  and  also  of  the  stale  and  condition 
or  divers  ships  of  war  of  our  saki  lord  the 
king,  in  parts  l>eyond  the  seas;  and  also  of 
certain  ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  king, 
employed  m  cruisine  against  the  enemies  of 
this  kingdom,  and  ofthe  service  in  which  the 
said  sh^  were  so-  employed ;  in  order  aad 
with  intent  to  send,  ana  cause  to  be  sent,  the 
same  accoittts,  or  the  subst^ce  and  contents 
thereof,  to  certain  subjects  of  the  said  French 
king,  ^en  and  yet  being  enemies  of  our  said 
lor<r the  king ;  and  for  .that  purpose  he  the 
said  Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte»  afterwacda^ 
to  wit,  on  the  same  day  and  year  labt  above 
menlioned,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in  the 
county  of  Middlesex  aforesaid,  falsely,  wick- 
edly, and  traitorously  did  carry  and  convey 
the  said  accounts  to  the  dwelling.house  of  one 
Bichard  Otley,  situate  in  the  parish  aforesaid, 
in  the  said  county  of  Middlesex.    And  the 
jurors  aforesaid,.upon  their  oath  aforesaid^  fiuw 
ther  present,  tliat  during  the  said  war,  to  wit, 
on  the  said  1 1th  day  ot  January,  in  the  90th 
year  aforesaicL  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in  the 
said  county  of  Middlesex,  he  the  said  Fraacia 
Henry  De  la  Motte,  as  such  false  traitor  aa 
aforesaid,  in  iusther  prosecutbn  of  his  said 
treason  and  trcasoni^bie  adhering,  and  pur- 
poses afovesaid,  unkwfully  and  traitorously 
did  retain,  hire,  and  employ  oae  Henry  1Mb- 
terioh  to  (H)tam  accounts  aad  intelligence  of 
the  ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  king, 
which  should  sail  fisom  Spithead  aforesaid^  aad 


905} 


fifr  High  Treason. 


A.  D.  17dl. 


[706 


of  the  times  of  daiU^,  and  the  names,  force, 
and  destination  of  such  ships  of  war ;  and  also 
of  the  aiTi?al»  at  ^ntheaa  aforesaid,  of  such 
ehips  of  war  of  our  wud  iQrd  the  long  to  should 
amve  at  Spithead  siforesaid,  and  alSQ  of  such 
ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  king  as  should 
be  m  ^e  harbour  of  Portsmouth  aforesaid ; 
and  of  the  state,  condition,  and  force  of  such 
ships;  and  of  Uie times  when  such  ships  were 
expected  to  sail ;  and  also  of  the  times  when 
inch  ships  would  sail,  and  the  destination  of 
such  ships;-  and  to  communicate  such  ac- 
counts and  intelligence  to  the  said  Francis 
Henry  De  la  Motte,  in  order  that  he,  the  said 
Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte,  might  eend  such 
accounts  and  intelligence  to  the  subjects  of 
the  said  French  king,  then  and  yet  being  ene- 
miflB  of  our  said  present  lord  the  kine.  And 
tiie  jurors  aforesaid,  upon  thebroath  aforesaid, 
forthfir  present,  that  durine  the  said  war,  to 
wit,  on  the  said  5th  day  of  January,  in  the 
Slat  year  aforesaid,  at  the  parish  aforesaid,  in 
the  said  county  of  Middlesex,  he  the  said 
Rancis  Henry  De  la  Motte,  as  such  false 
traitor  as  aforesaid,  and  in  further  prosecution 
of  fab  treason  and  treasonable  adnering  and 
pnrpoees  aforesaid,  ^sely,  wickedly,  and 
tmltoffously  did  retsun^  hire,  and  employ  the 
Mid  Henry  Lutterloh,  to  qbtain  information 
and  intelligence  of  the  sailing  of  a  squadron 
of  ships  of  war  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  then 
ahortly  expected  to  sail  from  Spithead  afore- 
flud,  under  the  command  of  George  Johnston; 
then  being  one  of  the  officers  in  the  navy  of 
our  said  lord  the  kin^ ;  and  of  the  time  when 
flttch  squadron  should  sail,  and  of  the  number 
and  force  of  the  ships  of  such  squadron ;  and 
immediately  to  send,  and  cause  to  be  sent, 
BQck  information  and  intellioence  to  certain 
subjects  of  the  said  French  King,  then  and 
yet  beiDS  enemies  of  our  said  lord  the  king, 
a^nsl  tne  duty  of  the  allegiance  of  him  the 
said  Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte,  and  against 
the  ^eact  of  our  said  present  sovereign  loind 
the  king,  his  crown  and  dignity,  and  also 
against  &  fonn  of  the  statute  in  such  case 
and  provided.'' 


Qn  Friday,  ^  Idth  of  July,  tjbe  prisoner 
was  broii^ht  (torn  the  Tower,  in  custody  of 
the  sherinSy  to  the  prison  of  Newgate.  He 
wa3  set  to  the  bar,  and  pleaded  Not  Guilty 
to  his  indictment  The  Court  assigned  him, 
at  his  own  request,  Mr.  Dunning  and  Mr. 
Peckham  for  his  counsel,  and  Mr.  Platel  for 
Tca$  solicitor.* 

*  AiKillier  aocoQBt  of  tlii«  Tri»l,  the  title  page  of 
wlick  repreeenU '  that  it  wa»  *  Ikken  in  short*  bftftd 
'  by  JftiiiM  Walllos,  ei^.  of  the  Mifiaie  Temple/ 
hot  wldcli  in  fust  i«  a  vorj  meagre  abridgement  (the 
wbote  fqwrt  not  oodipying  thirty  mall  Svo  pages) 
^liMmMjeneoMM*  mootiom  that 

"  Mv.  ^friihaw  then  ap^ed  to  the  Coarti  that 
Mr.  JH  U  Wottfr  might  be  lodged  in  Olerkenweil 
]|rid««ell,  where  a  room  had  been  pnpared  for  him, 
«p4  might  AOt  be  sent  to  NewgatiBt  whei^  there  wa« 
ao  place  for  him,  but  stalls  (qa.  QIbI^  for  oon<|emo^ 
ariadnilt,  ndw  ma^  eeoWded.    Tie  CiMrt  at  first 

YOLXSL 


On  Saturday,  the  14th  of  July,  the  court 
being  6pened,  and  the  prisoner  set  to  the  bar, 

doobted,  ivhether  Ihey  oo«1d  oomply  under  their 
commission,  ivhich  is,  '  to  deli?er  the  gaol  of  New^ 
*  gate  of  the  prisoneni  therein  being;'  but  afterwarda 
ordered  Mr.  De  la  Motte  to  New  Prison,  Clerken' 
well,  informing  himt  that  his  trial  woetd  commence 
the  following  morning  precisely  at  nine  o^ctook| 
whereupon  ha  bowed  respectfuU j,  and  retired  Crom 
the  bar,  attended  by  the  sheriffs,  Mr.  Peokham,  &o.! 

<<  T%e  sheriA  of  London  and  Middlesex  harhig 
recetTed  M.  de  la  Motte,  on  Pridajr  morning,  firom 
the  lieutenant  ef  the  Toww,  and  being  desirous  that 
lie  should  have  every  |NMsibIe  eooifoxl,  took  upon 
UiemselTes  to  confine  him,  on  Friday,  in  New-Prison^ 
Clerkenwell,  where  be  had  a  very  oommodioas  apart- 
ment, and  was  attended  by  one  of  the  under-shcriffiia 
who  sat  up  in  his  bedchamber  all  the  night,  and  who 
brought  him  from  thence  on  Saturday  morning  to  the 
bar.    They  also  applied  on  Friday,  by  letter,  to  lord 
Stormont,  respecting  the  place  of  his  confinement, 
in  case  of  conviction,  representing  to  his  lordship, 
that  in  the  present  ruinous  state  of  Newgate,  thera 
vras  no  apartment  of  safe  custody  in  tlmt  jail,  except 
the  oelb,  alveady  oiver-crowded  with  oapital  convicti» 
and  that  the  other  prisons  in  the  county  were  not 
property  subject  to  the  oontroul  of  the  sheriffs ;  hum- 
bly submitting  to  his  lordship,  whether  it  might  not 
be  proper,  in  case  the  prisoner  should  be  conrioled, 
to  order  him  to  be  re-committed  to  the  Towes.     His 
lordship,  in  a  few  hours,  retorned  an  answer,  by  let- 
ter, to  the  sheriffs,  signifying  to  them  his  majesty'^ 
pleasure  (in  consequence  of  their  representation) 
that  Mons.  De  la  Motle,  if  convicted,  should  be  re- 
manded to  the  Tower,  and  desiring  that  they  wovl4 
give  immediato  notice  to  one  of  the  principal  secre- 
taries of  stato  of  his  conviolion,  if  it  sifould  so  hap*' 
pen,  that  the  necessary  directions  might  be  given  to 
the  lieutenant  of  the  Tower,  to  receive  him  back  frodt 
tbe  sheriffs,  into  hb  custody.    In  oonseqnenoe  of 
this,  as  soon  as  sentence  was  pronounced,  the  sheriflfh 
dispatched  one  of  their  under  sberifff  to  the  secretary 
of  state*s  office,  who,  in  little  more  than  aa  honr« 
brought  back  an  order  from  lord  Hillsborough,  in 
lord  Stormonf  s  absence,  to  the  lieutenant  of  the 
Tower,  to  which  place  M.  de  la  Motto  was  conveyed 
at  twelve  o'clock  at  night,  by  Mr.  sheriff  Chriohton, 
accompanied  by  sir  Stanier  Porten,  one  of  the  under 
secretaries  of  state,  who  having  been  an  evidence  oq 
the  trial,  was  necessarily  attending  all  day  at  the 
Old  Bailey,  and,  at  the  request  of  Um  shioriir,  was  so 
obliging  as  to  aecompany  him  to  the  Tower,  to  re^ 
move  any  diAcuHies  that  might  arise  cenoerning  the 
receiving  of  the  prisoner  at  that  lato  hour  or  the 
fught.     M.  De  la  Motte  Was  in  another  coach,  at- 
tended by  Mr.  AkernM|n>  who  says,  that  be  never  It^ 
his  life  saw  a  man  in  his  situation  with  more  be- 
coming firmness  and  fortitude ;  and  that  he  only  ex<» 
pressed  tbe  same  wish  to  him  as  he  had  to  the  she- 
riflfs,  that  his  dissolntion  might  be  immediate,  by 
striking  off  his  head,  if  his  msj^ty  would  graciously 
grant  him  tliat  indulgence.    AfWr  waiting  about  a 
quarter  of  an  hour,  till  the  neceisary  direcUons  could 
be  obtained  for  opening  the  gates,  Mr.  sheriff  Chrich^ 
ton  delivered  over,  and  took  leave  of  the  prisoner^ 
who  expressed  in  the  warmest  terms,  his  most  grate- 
ful acknowledgment  to  Mr.  sheriff  Sainsbory  and 
him,  for  their  pctlite  attention  to  him  while  in  tlieie 
custody;  and  particularly  for  the  trouble  they  had 
taken  in  qbtainvkg  an  onler  for  his  being 
to  the  Tower.**    Annmd  Regist^,  1781. 


707J 


21  GEORGE  III. 


tAal  ofF.  ti.  De  fit  Matte, 


[709 


the  jurors  returned  by  the  sheriff  werc.called 
into  court. 

Ro^er  Griffin^  of  Islington-road,  esq.  chal- 
lengea  by  the  prisoner. 
,   PMward  Bond,  of  €rolden-square,  brewer, 
sworn. 

£dwar«l  Seward,  of  GoSwell-strect,  dyer, 
challenged  b^  the  prisoner. 

George  FiUingbun,  of  St.  JohnVstre^t, 
hop^merchant,  sworn. 

John  Pay,  of  Islinatonrroad,  brewer,  sworn. 

Joseph  Bcayne,  of  Rosoman's-row,  mason, 
sworn. 

.  Thomas  Chadley,  of  Sparfields,  carpenter, 
challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

•  Apsley  Pellat,  of  St.  John's-street,  iron- 
monger, challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

•  John  Weston,  of  Bbittle-bridge,  tile-maker, 
challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

John  Lewis,  of  Islington,  gentleman,  chal- 
lenged by  the  prisoner. 
'  William   Fasson,  of  Holbbrn,   pewterer, 
sworn. 

Thomas  Proctor,  of  Holywell-street,  brewer, 
challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

Edward  Paul,  of  Holbom,  hosier,  chal- 
lenged by  the  prisoner. 

Edward    Jukes,   of  Uolbom,    japanner, 
challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

Williafti  Wilkinson,  of  Fullwood's-rents, 
gentleman,  challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

Richard  Jupp^  of  the  Kmg's-road,  surveyor, 
challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

J^van  Jones,  oi   Byre-street,   gentleman, 
challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

William  Blasson,   of  Hatton-strcet,   car- 
penter, sworn. 

Hickman   Young,   of   Hatton-street,   up- 
holsterec,  sworn. 

Richard  Worslcy>  of  Hatton-street,  turner, 
challenged  by  the  prisoner.  i 

Richard  Wiggins,  of  Leather-lane,  tallow- 
chandler,  challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

Edwara  Mettam,  of  Charlefr-strcet,  Hatton- 
garden,  bricklayer,  sworn. 

John  Morton,  of  Great  Saffron-hill,  baker, 
challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

Samuel  Lessey,  of  Great  Saffron-hill,  car- 
penter, clviilenged  by  the  prisoner. 

William  Hunter,  of  Great  Saifron-hill,  gen- 
tleman, challenged  bv  the  prisoner. 

Henry  Sidgier,  of  Chancery-lane,  uphol- 
sterer, challenged  by  the  prisoner. 

Richard  Chnstmass,  of  Kentish-town,  gen- 
tleman, sworn. 

Richard  Tofl,  of  KenUsh-town,   farmer, 
sworn. 

Thomas  Prior,  of  Great  Russel-street,  brick- 
layer, sworn. 

Joieph  Gribble,  of  Gloucester-street,  car- 
jpenter,  sworn. 

The  Jury. 

Edward  Bond,  Joseph  Brayne, 

Gsorge  Fillingham,     William  Fasson, 

,  John  Pay,.  William  Blasson, 


Hickman  Yonng,         Richard  Toft, 
Edward  Mettam,         Thomas  Prior. 
Richard  Christmass,    Joseph  Gribble. 

The  Clerk  of  the  Arraigns  charged  the  Jvttf 
with  the  Prisoner. 

Counsel  for  the  Crown, — Mr.  Attorney  Qe- 
neral  (James  Wallace) ;  Mr.  Solicitor  Genml 
(James  Mansfield,  in  1804,  C.  J.  of  C.  B.); 
Mr.  Howorth ;  Mr.  Norton. 

Solicitor, — ^William  Chamberla^e,  esq.  so- 
licitor for  the  afbirs  of  his  majesty's  Trea- 
sury. 

Counsel  for  the  PriMmer.-^Mr.  Dunning; 
Mr.  Peckham. 

&/icifor.— Mr.  Platel. 

Mr.  Norton,  May  it  please  your  lordship, 
and  you  gentlemen  of  the  jury ;  the  prisoner 
at  the  bar,  Francis  Henry  De  la  Motte,  stands 
charged  with  the  crime  of  high  U^eason.  The 
indictment  sets  forth,  that  he,  Francis  Heniy 
De  la  Motte,  being  a  subject  of  Great  Britau^ 
and  well  knowing  that  public  war  was  carried 
on  by  Louis  the  French  king  against  our  so- 
vereign lord  king  George  the  dd,  and  intend^ 
iug  to  subvert  the  government  of  this  kinc*- 
dom,  on  the  1 1th  day  of  January,  in  the  SOUi 
year  of  his  present  majesty,  and  at  divers 
other  days  and  times,  at  the  parish  of  St. 
George,  Hanover^square,  in  this  county,  did 
traitorously  compass,  imagine,  and  intend,  to 
depose  and  kill  our.  present  most  gracious  so- 
vereign. 

Gentlemen,  tiie  overt  acts  laid  in  the  iddict- 
ment,  to  prove  this  treason,  are,  that  he,  the 
prisoner  at  the  bar,  to  bring  to  effect  such  his 
traitorous  intention,  did  write,  procure,  and 
send  from  this  kingdom  to  France,  several 
letters,  instructions,  lists,  and  accounts,  to  io- 
form  the  French  king  of  the  state,  ccmditiony 
designaticms,  and  stations,  of  the  naval  and 
military  forces  of  this  kingdom,  in  order  to 
enable  the  French  king  to  canry  on  the  i^ 
against  this  country' ;  and  this  is  laid  to  bave 
been  done  by  the  prisoner  against  the  duty  of 
his  allegiance,  ajgainst  the  peace  of  our  sove* 
rei^  lord  the  kmg,  his  crown  and  dignity,  and 
against  the  form  of  the  statute  in  such  case 
made  and  provided. 

Gentiemen,  there  is  another  count,  charg- 
ing the  prisoner  ^dth  high  treason,  in  adh^- 
ing  to  the  king's  enemies ;  -and  the  overt  acta 
lara  are  the  same  with  those  in  the  first  count. 
—To  this  indictment  the  prisoner  has  pleaded 
that  he  is  Not  Guiltv.  We,  who  are  of  couBb- 
sel  for  the  crown,  will  call  bur  witnesses;  and 
if  they  prove  the  cliarce  ag^st  him,  it  will 
then  be  your  duty  to  nnd  him  guilty. 

Mr.  Attorney  General,  May  it  please  your 
lordship,  and  you  gentiemen  of  the  jury,  I  am 
of  counsel  on  the  same  side,  in  support  of  this 
prosecution,  which  imputes  to  the  prisoner  at 
the  bar'ihe  crime  of  high  treason ;  and  the 
particular  acts  which  constitute  the  ofience 
are  charged  by  the  indictnie&t  to  coawi  of 


'TW) 


JhfHigh  Tren»on* 


A.  D.  1781. 


[710 


procuring  -and  atndine  intelligence  to  the 
French  king  and  his  subjects,  with  whom  this 
country  is  at  war,  to  inform  that  government 
of  the  force,  condition,  equipment,  and  desti- 
nation of  the  ships  employed  by  hb  miyesty 
in  the  prosecution  of  the  war  against  France 
— of  the  destinalton  of  the  ships  x>f  the  subjects 
of  this  country  engaged  in  the  commerce  of  it 
^*of  the  time  of  tl^ir  sailing-— of  the  time 
when  they  are  expected  to^  arrive — ^and  of 
every  circumstance  which  can  enable  the 
enemy  not  only  to  defeat  or  avoid  our  enter- 
prizes,  but  to  intercept  and  destroy  our  com- 
merce. Thia^  in  substance,  is  the  chaige 
aeainst  the  prisoner  at  the  bar :  it  is  a  treason 
of  the  most  dangerous  nature.  An  aid  and 
support  of  this  sort,  to  an  enemy,  is  the  most 
efiectual  and  in^>ortant  that  any  private  man 
canpossibly  give. 

Tne  prisoner  is  supposed  to  be  a  French- 
man by  birth ;  he  certainly  is  not  a  natural- 
bom  subject  of  this  countty :  but  I  must  in- 
form you,  that  whilst  he  is  under  the  protec- 
tion of  the  laws  of  this  kingdom,  he  owes  al- 
lenance  to  it  equal  to  that  of  any  natural-bom 
subject.  It  has  been  the  custom  of  modem 
times,  during  war  and  hostilities,  not  to  drive 
out  of  this  countiy  the  subjects  of  the  enemy 
who  are  resident  in  it,  or  even  to  prevent 
others  from  coming  whose  occasions  or  cu- 
riosity may  bring  them :  but  it  has  ever  been 
understood,  that,  whilst  they  are  here  under 
the  protection  of  the  laws  and  government, 
they  do  nothing  detrimental  to  the  state,  and 
that  they  owe  the  same  allegiance  to  the 
king,  during'  the  time  they  stay,  as  any  na- 
tural-bom subject  whatever. 

Perhaps  a  philosopher  might  discover  some 
shades  of  difference  in  the  moral  turpitude  of 
.  an  act  against-the  state  committed  by  these 
who  owe  perpetual  alleeiance  to  it,  and  by 
those  whose  allegiance  is  local  and  temporary ; 
but  in  the  scale  of  policy,  and  in  consideration 
of  law^  no  distinction  will  be  found :  the 
crime  and  the  punishment  are  the  same.  If 
the  enemv,  by  intelligence  from  this  country, 
be  assisted  in  the  op^ations  of  the  war,  or  m 
the  means  of  defence,  it  matters  very  little 
whether  that  intelligence  is  derived  from  one 
of  our  own  eubjects,  tempted  and  seduced  to 
the  service,  or  from  spies,  of  their  own  nation 
placed  among  us ;  the  effects  are  the  same ; 
aud  therefore,  if  the  prisoner  at  the  bar  shall 
appear  to  have  committed  acts  which  if  done 
i>y  a  naJUiral-bom  subject  would  have  amount- 
ed to  high  treason,  he  is  guilty  of  that  crime. 

At  wfi^  time  the  prisoner  at  the  bar  first 
came  into  this  country,  I  am  not  eiabled  to 
i»tate  to  you  with  precision ;  but  you  will  find 
him  here,  from  the  evidence  I  shall  produce, 
in  January,  1780.  He  had  lodgings  then,  and 
till  the  time  he  was  apprehended,  at  a  Mr. 
Otley's  in  Bond-street,  lor  which  he  paid  a 
hundred  guineas  a  year.  Ue  made  the  figure 
of  a  genUeinaa;  had  his  servants,  and  got 
inlroduoed  into  the  company  of  sonUemen : 
Jbis  /nnployQj^t  oec^sarily  called  bx^tvm 


means  of  obtaining  intelligence,  which  hit 
address  and  management  could  possibly  pro- 
cure ;  and  you  will  find,  in  the  sequel  of.  this 
caused  that  a  more  vigilant,  a  more  indus- 
trious, or  a  more  able  spy,  was  never  placed  in 
any  country.  The  intelligence  he  procured 
will  astonish  you. 

About  June  17B0,  a  correspondence  with 
the  enemy  was  discovered,  which  continued  a 
considerable  time  before  the  prisoner  was  de- 
tected as  the  author. 

One  Ratcliffe,  the  owner  of  a  cutter  at  Folk- 
stone,  in  Kent,  who  will  be  called,  was  hired 
by  one  Roger  to  cany  dispatohes,  the  nature  - 
of  which  was  not  explained,  firom  Folkstone 
to  Boulogne,  In  France,  to  be  delivered  to  the 
commissary  of  marine  there :  he  was  to  be 
paid  20/.  a  trip,  and  to  have  also  some  recom- 
pence  for  his  epeedy  conveyance  there.  This 
was  the  agreement  that  he  made  with  Boger, 
who  turned  out  afterwards  to  be  the  servant 
of  the  prisoner.  He  carried  a  dispatoh  or  two 
from  Folkstone  to  Boulogne,  when  the  se- 
crecy he  was  enjoined  to  observe  in  the  car- 
riage and  delivery  of  the  dispatches,  and  other 
circumstances,  created  in  his  mind  a  suspicion 
that  he  was  carrying  intelligence  to  the 
enemy.  He  communicated  his  suspicion,  and 
the  grounds  of  it,  to  Mr.  Stewart,  a  merchant^ 
at  Sandwich.  Mr.  Stewart  concurred  in  the 
same  opinion;  and,  in  order  effectually  to 
discover  whether  the  suspicions  were  well 
founded  or  not,  it  was  a^ed  that  Ratoliff^ 
should  deliver  up  to  Mr.  Stewart  one  of  the 
packets  which  had  just  been  delivered  to  him, 
and  that  Mr.  Stewart  should  carry  it  imme- 
diately to  one  of  the  secretaries  of  state,' to  be 
examined,  and  should  then  return  it  to  Rat- 
cliffe. Mr.  Stewart  accordingly  brought  the 
packet  to  lord  Hillsborough's  office  ;  it  was 
opened,  and  the  nature  of^the  correspondence 
was  discovered  to  be  such  as  I  have  already 
stated  to  you,  and  which  I  shall  take  mor^ 
particular  notice  of  by  and  by. 

From  this  time  every  djspateh  given  to 
Ratclifiewas  byhim  dehveredto  Mr.Stewart, 
who  either  brought  it  himself,  or  sent  it  to 
the  secretary  of  state :  it  was  opened,  the  mar 
terial  papers  copied;  the  packet  was  then 
made  up  in  the  same  manner,  returned  to 
Rateliffe,  and  by  him  carried  to  Boulogne. 
They  were  generally  delivered  to  the  commis^ 
sary  of  mannes  at  Boulogne ;  the  letters  were  *^ 
signed  by  fictitious  names,  and  the  address 
'was  also  fictitious :  but  some  of  the  indosures 
were  directed  to  M.  Sartine,  the  marine  mi- 
nister at  the  court  of  France ;  others  to  a  M. 
Baudovin,  who  was  also  a  minister  employed 
in  that  court,  and  to  other  people  resident  at 
Paris.  Various  endeavours  were  made  to  dis- 
cover the  author,  without  effect :  at  last  a 
scheme  was  formed  to  detect  him  by  the 
means  of  Ratcliffe.  Rateliffe  had  frequently 
hinted  that  he  was  employed  in  the  business, 
without  mentioning  by  whom :  he  had  not 
b^n  paid  the  gratuity  for  dinvateh,  whkh 
had  been  pcomi^  him :   be  afiected  to  quai- 


Til] 


SKtfiORGfi  m. 


TrM  cfF.  H.  De  b  MoUe^ 


\Wt 


lel  yritii  IU>g0r  im  tbat  aocounty  and  -imwoted 
upon  «eeing  the  principal.  He  came  to  town, 
and  Roger  agreed  he  should  be  inlroduced  to 
the  principal:  be  went  to  llo^er's  house; 
Roger  went  oat,  and  brought  with  him  the 
•naoner,  M.  De  la  Motte.  RatcliiFe  made 
nis  complaint  M.  De  la  Motte  told  him, 
that  as  to  the  first  thi«e  or  four  dispatches, 
they  had  gone  with  all  the  expedition  wished^ 
but  that  aoooiie  of  the  last  had  been  so  much 
delayed,  that  the  same  news,  by  other  chan- 
nels, had  got  to  Fnmce  before  tnem,  and  that 
the  dispatches  were  of  no  use.  He  told  Rat* 
eliffe  he  should  not  give  him  any  ^une  then, 
but  he  assured  him  he  would  not  only  give 
him  90/.  a  trip  for  the  dispatcMes  in  niture, 
but  that  he  would  give  him,  in  the  month  of 
January,  as  a  present,  if  he  found  the  expedi- 
tion in  carrying  them  was  according  to  his 
expectation,  the  sum  of  a  hundred  guineas. 
Upon  this  plain  and  unequivocal  avowal,  by 
the  prisoner  at  the  bar,  of  the  correspondence, 
preparations,  were  made  to  apprehend  him. 

<  It  is  now  proper  to  notice,  more  particularly 
than  I  have  yet  d6ne,  the  nature  of  the  cor- 
lespondence  which  was  carried  on  through 
the  means  of  Ratbliife. 

In  the  first  dispatch,  whidi  was  given  by 
Ratclifie  to  Mr.  Stewart,  was  contained  a  letter 
addressed  to  M.  Sartine;  it  was  dated  the 
aoth  of  June^  1780. 

JHcre  the  Counsel  for  the  Prisoner  sub- 
mitted to  the  Court,  that  the  Attorney  Gene- 
ral ought  not  to  be  permitted  to  state  the 
tontents  of  the  copy  of  a  letter ;  that  they 
foudded  their  objection  upon  the  well-known 
rule,  that  a  copy  is  not  the  best  evidence 
which  the  nature  of  the  subject  affords,  when 
the  original  is  not  proved  to  be  not  in  exist- 
ence ;  that  it  ought  not  to  be  permitted  to 
anjr  man,  for  any  purpose,  to  part  with  the 
original,  intending  to  substitute  a  copy  in  the 
IBtead  of  it;  that  because  the  admission  of 
the  copy  would  deprive  the  prisoner  of  an 
opportunity  of  proving  that  the  oridnal, 
'Which  was  stated  to  have  come  througn  the 
hands  of  the  prisoner's  servant,  was  not  the 
hand-writing  of  the  prisoner ;  and  that,  if 
thehr  objection  to  the  admissibility  of  the 
copy  should  prevail,  the  present  was  a  proper 
'stage  to  msice  the  objection,  previous  to  the 
opening  to  the  jury  the  contents  of  the  letter. 

The  Court  were  of  opinifMi  that  the  subject 
was  taken  up  rather  prematurely;  thai, as 
there  were  circumstances  under  which  a  copy 
might  be  admitted  in  evidence,  it  would  not 
be  right  to  stop  the  Attorney  General  from 
stating  tliai  part  of  the  case,  and  the  proper 
time  tor  making  the  objection  would  be  when 
the  copies  were  offered  to  be  given  in  evi- 
dence.] 

Mr.  Attorney  General,  Gentlemen,  I  state 
to  you  the  evidence  I  h^ve  to  produce,  and 
4he  nature  of  that  evidence :  if  it  b  not  com- 
petent, in  law  when  iiurawea  to  be  offered, 


your  own  good  sense  will  lay  it  o«t^  ikm 
ease;  and  the  Court,  in  their  attention  to 
subjects  of  this  kind,  will  infepn  you  tbat 
what  id  opened,  of  .which  there  is  no  1^^ 
proof,  ought  to  be  erased  fnm.  your  m^nofy, 
and  to  make  no  part  of  your  consideration. 

The  first  letter  is  addressed  to  M.  Saxtine, 
and  is  dated  the  30th  of  Jime,  1780c  in  the 
beginning  it  says,  ^  Answers  to  the  quiestions 
of  the  24th  instant ;''  dearly  reierring  to 
some  questions  to  which  he  was  to  ^vc  an- 
swers. There  is  in  the  letter  an  acooimt  of 
the  East  India  affairs,  and  the  India  .ships 
preparing  to  sail ;  and  of  the  troops  that  afe 
going  there,  and  of  the  ships  expected  botae^ 
and  a  great  deal  of  information  respecting  the 
India  possessions.  He  then  says,  ''We  nave 
no  news  from  admiral  Rodney :  we  know  he 
is  at  Barbadoes  with  fourteen  ships  of  the 
line,  and  that  Rowley  keeps  at  sea  with  seven, 
and  that  the  others  are  under  repair  at  St. 
Lucia.''  He  goes  on,  and  says,  "  we  reonve 
very  fi-e({uent  accounts  firom  admiral  Geary, 
who  cruizes  between  the  Scilly  islands  and 
Ushant,  and  preserves  his  oommunicalioa 
with  the  channel.  We  are  getting  ready 
several  vessels  with  provisions  for  his  fieel. 
The  Marlborough  sailed  last  Tuesday  horn 
Spithead  to  join  him.  With  regard  to  the 
other  ships  in  our  ports,  we  are  getting  them 
in  readiness,  hot  want  men  to  nt  them  out. 
The  Nonesuch  of  64,  Jupiter  of  60,  five  fii- 
gates,'and  two  fire-ships,  continue  off  Cbcr* 
bourg,  of  which  you  must  needs  be  well  in- 
formed. 'By  my  next  letters,  I  shall  send  you 
the  state  of  our  ports,  and  of  the  fteela  of 
merchant  ships  to  come  in,  those  of  which, 
from  Jamaica  and  the  Leeward  islands,  am- 
not  arrive  before  the  end  of  June.* 

In  this  packet  there  was  one  to  M.  Baudo- 
vin,  which  says,  **  1  have  just  "received  vour 
letters  of  the  24th  instant.  You  wiU  be 
pleased  not  to  send  me  any  intelligence  hy 
the  post,  that  is  to  say,  not  to  wnte  under 
any  name  whatever,  either  to  me,  or  to  Mr. 
Simper.  In  the  name  of  God,  write  no  more 
by  the  post  to  me,  or  to  Mr.  Simper!  The 
man,  wnose  address  you  sent  me,  committed 
a  thousand  follies  and  blunders  upon  the  de- 
Uveiy  of  it:  in  the  name  of  God,  send- no 
mortal  to  me  upon  any  pretence  whatever  I 
For  God's  sake,  take  care  to  eresecve  my 
life."  On  the  1st  of  August  following,  you 
will  find  another,  which  is  addressed  to  M. 
Baudovin ;  and  he  says,  in  the  first  paiegcaph 
of  this  letter,  (the  rest  I  shall  not  trouble  yiw 
with  particularly,)  **  I  have  the  honour  to 
send  yon  herewith  a  verv  exact  state  of  the 
naval  forces,  armed  ana  to  be  armed  this 
year ;  though  observing  in  this  disoatch  my 
monthly  custom  (as  for  eight  days  the  pubhic 
papers  give  us  a  very  imperfect  account  of 
the  navu  forces.)  X  desire  you  to  observe, 
that  the  particulars  of  tliis  state,  from  the 
Accuracy  of  my  accounts,  are  .always  of  two 
and  three  months  before  their  exeeutaon.*' 
gtviflig  soma  inteUigenoe  leaped* 


713] 


Jbr  Nigh  Trwasmf* 


A.  D.  17S1. 


[714 


i9g  tbe  shuMi  thftt  are  6ttt,  follows,  <«AlirtW 
t^.naval  Kwces,  armed  or  %o  be  anned$  thdr 
stations,  destinfttioa,  and  crews,  the  1st  of 
A«susL  1700."  You  have  then,  irst,  <'  the 
na^  toroe  under  the  commuia  of  afhninl 
Geany,  on  the  S6th  of  July,  off  the  bay  of 
Uahant;  lonntude,  £.  of  London.  11  des.  18 
mia.  kt.  49  ooc.  wind  £.  N.  £.  changeable/' 
Then  there  follows  a  list :  «'  Total  sa  ships 
of  the  liiie,  nme  frigates,  five  cutters,  and 
three  fire^ips."  Tl^  there  is  a  Ions  list 
of  the  naval  forces  in  thorports  of  England, 
on  the  1st  of  Ac^;ust,  and  the  destination  of 
their  armaments.  Then  a  list  of  ships  and 
frigates  lately  sailed,  as  well  as  those  tnat  are 
to  sail.  Then  he  states  the  time  of  sailing, 
and  the  time  expected  that  those  in  port 
would  sail.  This  is  followed  with  a  nola- 
bene :  '<  It  is  to  be  observed,  that  the  shifis 
above  described,  are  all  that  we  can  ann  thb 
year;  therefofe  I  make  no  mention  of  those 
on  the  stocks,  to  the  number  of  nine,  which 
cannot  be  flushed  before  about  the  month  of 
March,  1781.'^  Then  there  follows  a  list  of 
the  ships  and  ir^tes.  with  their  force,  crub- 
ing  upon  tfadr  several  stations.  Then  he  re- 
capitulates the  whole  of  this  catalogue  of  the 
ships  that  are  in  port,  that  are  out,  that  are 
under  the  command  of  different  squadrons, 
and  that  are  cruising.  This  is  a  letter  of  the 
istof  August,  1780. 

-  There  is  in  the  next  dispatch,  letters  of  the 
Ml  of  Aisust^  1780 ;  one  directed  to  M.  Sar- 
tine,  in  wnich  there  seems  to  be  contained,  a 
copy  of  some  letter  of  adtakind  Geary*s,  stat- 
ing his  condition,  and  the  situation  of  his 
ships.  Then  he  takes  up  accounts  from  the 
Admiraky,  where  he  states,  that  **  the  utmost 
endeavours  are  used  to  reinforce  the  fleet 
under  the  command  of  admiral  Geary ;  that 
tiiey  had  dispatched  the  Valiant  of  74  guns, 
and  the  Bienfiusant  of  64  guns.  The  Forti- 
tude of  64  guns,  the  Prince  William  6^,  the 
Momtrque  70,  the  Princess  70,  and  the  Gi- 
braltar 80;  these  five  ships  are  fitting  out, 
one  bv  one,  and  will  be  sent  out,  as  they  are 
in  Older,  to  join  admiral  Geary  .'*  Then  he 
goes  on  to  state,  **  the  fleet  of  merchantmen, 
and  the  Cransoorts  for  New  York,  are  still  de- 
tained at  Spitnead;  we  cannot  determine  on 
letting  them  sail,  before  we  have  received  the 
news  fipom  America.  As  to  our  maiittme 
condition  at  home,  look  to  my  last  list  of  the 
1st  of  August,  and  add  to  it  the  contents  of 
this  letter,  and  you  will  be  faithfully  inform- 
ed.^ Then  he  states,  '<  some  cruizers  are 
gone  to  the  north.  Our  fleets,  ready  to  sail 
at  a  minute's  notice,  consist,  first,  of  that  for 
New  York,having  3,000  German  troops,  and 
firom  60  to  80  merchantmen ;  secondly,  of  a 
fleet  for  New  York,  with  provision  and  am- 
munition, consisting  of  36  vessels,  which  are 
to  fl|D  ftom  Cost;  thirdly,  of  a  fleet  of  20 
sail  fwr  Charles^town,  and  Savannah.  Our 
Aaets  expected  home  in  the  course  of  the 
Aoisth,  are,  first.  300  sail  fi^m  the  Windward 
falntii  sttondly,  seven  jhipeirom  the  East 


Indies;  ^irdly,  from  lisbon  and  Oporto; 
iburthlv,  jfrom  the  Baltic^^Thas  is  the  ac 
ooiint  he  gives,  in  the  letters  of  the  9th  of 
August.  There  is,  beudes,  a  letter  to  tho- 
commissary  of  the  marine,  at  Boulogne.  I 
road  this  for  the  postscript  that  is  to  it.  '<  The 
letter,  which  you  did  me  the  honour  to  write 
to  me,  dated  the  3d  of  this  month,  has  been 
transmitted  to  me,  in  which,  I  see  with  con- 
cern, that  orders  have  prevented  your  remi^ 
ting  to  me  the  commission  of  the  first,  agree- 
able to  my  desire:  I  write  in  consequence,  and 
make  no  doubt  that  you  will  be  infonned  of 
the  nleasure  of  our  friend,  desiring.you,  for  the 
good  of  our  house,  in  whatever  way  the  mer- 
chandize ibay  be  sent,  to  be  so  good  as  to 
receive  them,  and  send  them^  either  by  Le- 
^fevreor  otherwise,  and  comtinue  to  inform 
ine  of  the  receipt  of  them,  and  that  in  the 
cautious  styl^  which  you  will  do  me  the  &- 
vour  to  make  use  of. — ^N.  B.  In  every  fiiture 
letter,  which  I  shall  have  the  honour  to  send 
you  for  yourself,  I  will  put  for  direction,  *  For 
*  Mr.  T.  Smith.' " 

There  are  in  the  future  pack^  intelligenco 
to  the  same  import,  giving,  at  dtfifcsent  pe* 
riods,  accounts  of  our  naval  and  military  ar- 
maments, which  I  will  not  take  lip  the  time 
of  the  Court  in  stating  particularly. 

I  have  already  taken  notice,  that  upon  the 
discovery  of  the  prisoner,  by  the  means  of 
Batdifle^  to  be  the  author  ^of  this  intelliMioe, 
preparations  were  made  to  apprehemT  him. 
His  lodgings  were  at  Mr.  Otley^  in  Bond* 
street,  und  a  messenger,  with  a  constable,  vmm 
sent  to  seiae^him  there.  On  the  morning  of 
the  4th  day  of  January  last,  they  went  to  the 
house,  under  information  that  the  prisoner 
was  then  at  home :  thev  enquired  ror  him^ 
were  told  by  his  servant,  he  was  not  at  home, 
and  that  he  did  not  know  where  he  was, 
nor  when  he  would  return:  they  searched 
the  house,  but  could  not  find  him ;  they  de- 
termined to  wait  in  the  house :  they  had  the 
precaution  to  take  into  custody  the  servant  of 
the  prisoner;  if  he  had  been  permitted  to  go 
out  of  the  house,  it  is  probable  that  he  might, 
either  personally,  or  by  some  means,  l»ve 
oonmiunicated  to  the  prisoner  a  disagreeable 
visit  of  two  gentlemen  at  his  lodgings.  They 
staid  all  ni^t;  the  prisoner  did  not  come 
home;  they  waited  the  next  day:  in  the 
evening  there  was  a  double  rap  at  the  door; 
they  sent  the  servant  to  open  the  door ;  it 
was  the  prisoner,  who  was  returned  from  the 
countrv.  In  going  up  stairs,  the  servant  in- 
formedf  him  of  tlie  company  that  were  in  the 
house,  and  of  the  manner  in  which  he  had 
been  treated;  this  alarmed  the  prisoner ;  he 
turned  short  about,  and  was  endeavouring  to 
eet  out  at  the  door,  but  the  constable  seized 
him  by  the  collar :  a  strugele  ensued,  and  in 
the  contest  the  prisoner  tc^  out  of  his  pocket 
some  papers,  which  he  did  not  choose  should 
be  £ouna  upon  his  person,  and  threw  them  on 
the  stairs;  probably  flattering  himself  that  he 
could. da  it  impaccived,.  and  tfa^  thoos^ 


715] 


21  GEORGE  m. 


Trial  ofF.  H.  De  la  MoHe, 


[716 


.they  should  be  found,  vet  there  tni^t  not  be 
any  proof  that  they  belonged  to  him^  or  had 
ever  been  in  his  custodv ;  but  the  messenger 
observed  the  prisoner  throw  the  papers  from 
him^  and  instantly  picked  them  up,  and  se- 
cured thera.  The  prisoner  was  tnen  taken 
into  the  dining-room,  where*  he  was  searched, 
and  other  papers  found. 

The  papers  which  he  was  so  solicitous  to 
get  rid  of,  it  will  behove  me  to  state  to  you. 
There  were  two  papers ;  the  first  contained 
aii  account  of  the  ships  that  had  sufiered,  or 
were  supposed  to  have  suffered,  by  the  storm 
in  the  West  Indies. — ^**  The  Thunderer,  Stir- 
lingrcastle,  and  Scarborough,  missing,  and 
given  over  for  lost ;  the  Phoenix,  Victor,  Ehur- 
badoes,  the  vessels  lost,  with  every  thing  but 
the  men ;  Rauniiies,  Southampton,  Pallas, 
Pelican.  Jamaica,  Tobago,  cnuzinrto wind- 
ward ot  Jamaica,  all  Well;  Albion,  Diamond, 
Janus,  PcMTCupine,  these  ships  are  fit  for  sea 
at  Jamaica;  the  Princess  Royal  was  along- 
side the  wharf  at  Jamaica^  m  order  to  be 
cleaned.  The  fieet  destuied  for  Gibraltar  is 
said  to  consist  of  eighteen  sail  of  the  line,  and 
to  take  six  months  provision,  and  to  be  got 
ready  with  all  possible  expedition :  what  Sie 
vest  of  the  ships  are,  and  when  they  will  sail, 
is  at  present  unknown.  Romney,  Mon- 
mouth, Jupiter,  Jason,  Diana,  Active,  Mer- 
cury, Shark  sloop.  Lark  cutter,  Infernal,  vic- 
tualled for  eight  months,  and  to  take  two 
tegiments,  namely,  Uumberston's  and  Fullar- 
ton's  regiments,  consisting  of  t, 000  men  each 
regiment ;  and  to  take  a  number  of  artillery ; 
but  when  they  sail,  and  on  what  service,  is  a 
profound  secret.  Commodore  Johnstone  has 
Deen  sent  for  to  London,  where  he  is  at  pre- 
sent. What  ships  are  gouig  with  sir  Hu{;h 
Palliser  is  not  known ;  but  hear  he  is  to  hoist 
his  flag  on  bourd  the  Hero,  which  is  expected 
here  firom  Plymouth  every  hour.  The  Fou- 
droyantand  Bienfiiisant,  at  Plymouth;  the 
Canada,  Edgar,  and  Warwick,  are  still  on 
their  cruize ;  the  Canada  was  seen  in  distress. 
The  Minerva  is  in  the  Downs,  to  convoy  the 
bishop  of  Osnabureh  to  Germany.  The 
Alert  has  brought  tne  under-mentioned  au- 
thentic account  from  Jamaica ; — ^Rubv,  all  her 
quarter-^eck  guns  thrown  overbotund;  Graf- 
ton, ditto,  ditto,  ditto;  Hector,  all  her  guns 
thrown  overboard  except  two ;  Trident,  none 
or  little  damaged;  Bristol,  all  her  quarter- 
deck guns  thrown  overboard ;  Egmont,  all  dis- 
masted, and  received  other  considerable  da- 
mages ;  Endjrmion,  Ulysses,  Pomona,  Re- 
source, Hinchinbrook,  LeostofF,  Endeavour, 
Badger,  have  received  no  damages  but  what 
may  be  repaired  in  fourteen  days  time.''  The 
second  paper  is  an  account  of  all  the  ships 
lying  at  Spithead ;  an  account  of  all  the  ships 
fying  in  Portsmouth  harboior ;  and  then  there 
is  a  weekly  account  of  the  sick  and  wounded 
seamen  in  Haslar  Hospital. 

Amongst  the  papers  found  on  the  prisoner, 
there  was  a  letter  from  a  Mr.  iJutterioh, 
ofWickbun^-near  Portsmouth,  addressed  to 


his  banker  in  town :  this.shewed  the  prisoner 
had  been  at  Mr.  Lutterloh's.  This  eentleinan- 
had  resided  more  than  a  year  at  vv  ickham ; 
he  livedas  a  gentleman,  though  the  means  of - 
his  {support  were  not  looown  there.  It  was 
thought  etpedient  to  apprehend  him ;  a  mesr 
senger  was  sent  down :  he  was  apprehended, 
ana  brought  to  town.  There  were  no  pampers 
of  consequence  found  upon  him.  In  his  exa- 
minatioti  bdbre  lord  Hillsborough,  he  ac- 
knowledged the  most  important  papers  found 
on  the  prisoner,  to  be  of  his  mtnd-writing, 
which  he  had  given  to  the  prisoner,  at  Wick- 
ham,  some  days  before ;  mat  he  was  in  the 
service  and  employment  of  the  prisoner,  to 
procure  accounts  of  the  ships  in  the  harbour 
at  Portsmouth^  and  at  Spithead;  and  to  give 
the  most  eariy  intelligence  to  the  prisoner, 
that  he  might  communicate  it  to  the  govern- 
ment at  France :  that  his  pay  had  increased, 
and  for  a  considerable  time  had  been  fifW 
euineas  a  month,  beudes  laree  presents  whicn 
nad  been  made  him  by  the  prisoner,  sui^ 
fident  to  enable  him  to  live  at  a  great  ex- 

Fente,  and  to  corrupt  a  clerk  in  office,  at 
ortsmouth,  to.furmsh  intellisenoe :  hisintel* 
li^nce  was  very  accurate,  and  communicated 
with  all  dispatch  to  the  prisoner,  which  he 
sent  off  by  the  means  of  Roger,  or  by  other 
conveyances;  for  from  the  letters  it  may  he 
collected,  that  he  had  employed  other  persons 
to  carrv  these  dispatches  to  France.  Lutterloh 
was  asked  if  he  nad  no  letters  or  papers  to 

Erove  his  correspondence  vnth  the  prisoner: 
e  said,  he  had,  hut  that  they  were  buried  in 
his  ^uden  at  Wickham,  in  order  to  conceal 
them ;  and  described  the  place  where  these 
papers  were  deposited.  A  messenger  was  sent 
down,  to  search  for  them :  he  foimd  them  in 
the  place  described,  and  broueht  them  to 
town.  In  Uiem  you  will  find  a  mil  confirmfr- 
tion  of  the  troth  of  the  story  related  by  Lut- 
terloh. 

It  seems,  the  French  mimstry  were  ex- 
tremely anxious  to  intercept  the  squadron  de- 
stined on  a  secret  expedition,  under  the  com- 
mand of  commodore  Johnstone;  and,  in 
order  that  ^ey  might  have  the  earhest  intel- 
U^nce  of  the  sailing  of  that  squadron,  the 
prisoner  had  nven  instructions  m  writing  to 
Lutterloh,  to  dispatch  two  vessels  the  moment 
the  squadron  set  sail,  one  to  Brest,  and  ano* 
ther  to  Cadiz,  with  letters  to  the  commandants 
at  those  ports,  leaving  blanks  for  the  day  and 
hour  of  saiUngj  and  the  number,  names,  and 
force  of  the  snips,  which  were  t^  he  filled  up 
by  Lutterloh.  The  prisoner  also  left  with 
him  covers  addressed  to  the  commandants,  in 
his  own  hand-wriUng ;  there  were  also  many 
other  covers,  in  which  intelligence  was  to  )ye 
sent,  addr^»ed  in  the  hand-writmg  of  the  prK 
soner. 

There  were  other  papers  in  the  prisoner's 
handUwritmg,  of  less  consequence ;  some  let* 
ters,  with  promises  of  money,  and  a  promts- 
sory  note  nom  the  prisoner  to  Lutterlob« 
dated  the  Uth  •f  June  1700,  for  the  f^jruMOi 


717] 


fir  High  Treason* 


A.  D.  1781. 


[718 


of  191/.  on  the  21st  of  the  same  month:  this 
vms  part  of  the  pay  due  from  the  prisoner  to 
Lufcterbh. 

The  hand-writing  of  the  prisoner  in  these 
papers,  led  to  a  fiiruier  discovery.  In  the  be^ 
^ning  of  the  year  1780^  there  being  a  suspi- 
cion that  intelligence  was  given  to  the  enemy, 
under  cover  to  a  M.  Grolay,  at  No.  64,  Rue 
de  Richelieu,  at  Paris,  orders  were  sent  to  the 
post  office,  to  stop  all  letters  with  that  ad- 
dress }  two  were  stopped,  one  dated  the  1  ith 
of  January,  1780,  and  the  other,  the  1st  of 
December  in  the  same  year.  From  the  com- 
parison of  those,  with  the  letters  wrote  by  the 
prisoner,  it  appeared  manifestly  they  were  of 
the  same  hand-writing.  They  will  be  proved, 
to  your  satisfiu:tion,  to  be  of  the  prisoner's 
hand-writing,  though  under  feigned  signatures. 
The  first  contains  accounts  of  the  ships  at 
Portsmouth,  and  their  destination;  ot  the 
number  of  land  forces  getting  ready  for  the 
West  Indies,  and  America ;  we  times  when 
certain  convoys  were  expected  to  sail,  and 
other  important  intelligence :  the  other  letter 
contains  intelligence  of  the  sailing  of  the 
fleet  under  the  command  of  sir  Samuel  Hood, 
for  the  West  Indies. 

These  are  the  general  outlines  of  the  case 
I  have  to  lay  Mfore  you,  against  the  pri- 
soner. 

There  are  a  great  variety  of  facts  which  con- 
stitute distinct  overtracts  of  treason. 

^y  the  statute  of  the  95th  of  Edward  3,  the 
compassing  the  king's  death,  and  adhering  to 
his  enemies,  are  declared  to  be  treason. 

Everv  act  tending  to  subject  this  kingdom 
to  the  dominion  of  a  foreign  power,  and  done 
with  that  intent,  is  held,  and  rightly,  to  be  an 
overt-act  of  compassing  the  kii^s  death. 

InteUigence  given  to  an  enemj  to  assist 
them  in  we  operaitionsof  thft  war,  is  an  overt- 
act  of  that  species  of  treason,  and  also  a  direct 
adherence  to  the  encmv. 

Any  measures  actually  taken,  which  mani- 
fest a  traitorous  intention,  are  overt-acts  of 
treason. 

The  sending  intelligence  by  the  means  of 
Ratclifie,  is  an  overt-act. 

The  sending  the  letters  by  the  post,  though 
intercepted  from  getting  to  the  enemy,  is  an 
overt-act ;  for  the  prisoner  did  every  thing  in 
bispower  to  have  them  conveyed. 

Tne  hiring  of  Ratcliffe  to  carry  intelligence 
to  the  enemy,  although  he  had  never  conveyed 
any,  is  an  overt-act. 

The  hiring  Lutterloh  to  procure  intelligence 
for  the  prisoner,  to  be  by  him  sent  to  the  ene- 
my, ana  to  dis{MUch  immediate  notice  to  the 
eneniy  of  the  sailing  of  commodore  John- 
stone's squadron,  is  an  overt-act 

And  the  obtaining  the  papers  foimd  upon 
the  prisoner,  from  Lutterloh,  in  order  to  com- 
municate the  intelligence  they  contained,  to 
the  enemy,  is  also  an  overt-act. 
.  I  trust  we  shall  lay  )>efQre  you  clear  and  fidl 
proof  against  the  prisoner,  of  all  these  acts  of 
trcsftton ;  ^but  if  we  shoidd  establish  one  only, 


to  the  satisfaction  of  youf  mkids,  it  -will  be 
your  duty  to  pronounce  him  guilty. 

EviDKKCE   FOa  TUB  CrOWK. 

« 

[The  Witnesses  were  examined  apart.] 

Stephen  Ratcliffe  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Solicitor  General. 

What  business  do  you  follow  ? — The  sea. 

Where  have  you  Hved  ? — ^At  Folkstone. 

Have  you  had  a  vessel  of  your  own  ? — ^Yes. 

Look  at  the  prisoner.  Have  you  seen  that 
gentleman  before  ? — Yes,  I  have. 

Where  did  you  see  him  ? — ^At  Mr.  Rogers, 
who  lived  in  Greek-street,  Soho,  at  No.  28. 

What  brought  you  and  him  together  ?— To 
make  an  agreement  to  carry  some  papers  to 
Boulogne. 

Did  you  talk  to  M.  De  la  Motte  upon  that 
business  P — ^Yes.  .  ' 

What  did  you  go  to  him  for  ? — ^Tq  make-  a 
fresh  agreement.  I  htad  been  carrying  some 
before.  Mr.  Roger  had  promised  me  100/. 
He  said  there  was  a  gentleman  would  give  it 
me ;  and  I  wanted  to  see  the  gentleman. 

And  that  brought  you  together  with  the 
gentleman  at  Mr.  Roger's  house? — ^Yes. 

You  said  you  had  carried  some  before  ?<— 
Several. 

Whom  did  you  receive  them  fiomi — ^Mr. 
Roger. 

Where  were  they  delivered  to  you  ? — Some 
at  Canterbury;  one  at  Folkstone;  and  at 
different  places. 

Where  were  you  to  carry  them  to?—- To 
the  commissary  at  Boulogne. 

Did  you  go,  as  you  were  employed  to  do, 
with  those  papers,  firpm  time  to  time,  to  this 
gentleman  at  Bouloghe? — ^I  went  up  to  the 
house  but  once :  X  employed  the  merchant's. 
wife  that  we  have  concerns  with  to  cany 
them  up. 

You  know  a  merchant  there,  do  you?' — 
Yes. 

Once  you  went  to  the  commissary  your-^ 
self?-.YeB. 

Why  did  not  you  at  other  times  go  to  the 
commissary  himself,  but  go  to  the  merchant's 
house  ? — liiey  did  not  like  I  should  go,  for 
fear  there  should  be  some  suspicion. 

You  said  you  had  carried  some  before,  and 
the  reason  of  your  applying  to  him  was  to 
know^bout  this  100/.?— -Yes. 

What  did  he  say  to  vou  upon  this  subject  ? 
— ^He  said,  *^  If  I  could  carry  them,  and  carry 
them  quicker,  that  he  would  give  me  the 
money ;  but  he  could  not  give  it  me  now, 
because  there  were  papers  carried  quicker 
than  I  carried  them,  and  so  they  were  of  no- 
use." 

Did  he  complain,  then,  of  your  not  ^in^ 
so  fast  as  others  ? — He  complained  so  tar  as 
this ;  he  said,  "  the  news  was  cairied  over, 
they  knew  it  before." 

You*  had  not  been  quick  enough  for  him, 
then  ? — The  first  two  or  three  times  he  like(V 
it  very  well.  


718] 


21  GEORGE  IIL 


Trial  qfF.  H.  De  k  Moite, 


[720 


How  modi  were  you  paid  a  trip  for  thu} 
4^80/.  a  time. 

Did  he  tell  you  how  often  he  would  em- 
ploy you  ? — Mr.  Roger  said  it  would  be  oon- 
•tant,  once  a  week.  Mr.  Roger  made  that 
agreement  with  me  first. 

Did  you  at  any  time  deliver  to  any  person 
any  of  the  papers  you  received  finom  Mr. 
Rocer? — ^Yes. 

Whom  did  you  deliver  them  to  ? — T6  Mr. 
Stewart,  a  eentleman  of  Sandwich. 

You  sain  you  received  some  from  Roeer ; 
did  you  receive  any  fiom  De  la  Motte  ? — Slo ; 
I  received  SOl.  from  him,  but  Roger  gave  me 
the  papers. 

Was  the  prisoner  present  when  Roger  gave 
you  the  papers  ? — ^i es ;  he  told  Roger  to  go 
and  fetch  it  down  stairs.    Roger  fetched  the 

Cpers :   then  he  gave  me  the  parcel,  and  M. 
,  Motte  gave  me  a  90/.  note. 
You  say  you  carried  several  toMr.'Stewan? 
—Yes. 

After  you  had  delivered  them  to  Mr. 
Stewart,  did  he  deliver  them  back  to  ^u 

Sun  ^---Sometimes  he  gave  them  to  me  him- 
f,  and  sometimes  he  sent  them  back. 

When  they  were  either  eiven  back  to  you 
by  Mr.  Stewart,  or  sent  back  to  you  by  him, 
did  you  cany  them  to  Boulogne,  as  you  were 
directed  ?— I  did :  I  either  carried  them  my- 
self, or  sent  them. 

S«Rt  them,  by  whom  ?— A  person  I  nut  in 
as  master ;  I  could  not  always  go  myself. 

Court.  Who  is  Roger  }'—A,  A  gentleman 
that  lives  In  Greek-street,  Soho,  No.  S8 :  he 
Jul  a  Frenchman,  I  beKeve. 

What  do  you  take  Mr.  Roger  to  be  ?— He 
did  the  business  for  this  gentleman. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Dunning. 

What  did  ygu  say  you  took  Mr.  Roger  to 
be? — ^He  did  the  business  for  this  gentlonaa; 
he  was  employed  by  this  ijjoiitleman. 

I  want' to  understand  nom  you  the  same 
question  that  my  k>rd  put  to  you,  what  you 
took  Roger  to  be } — ^He  makes  small  boxes. 

He  is  described  as  being  a  toyman ;  I  hope 
he  it  tnily  described  ?*-Yes. 

You  came  to  M.  De  la  Motte,  in  conse- 
quence of  being  informed  by  Roger  thai  a 
gentleman  would  give  you  \QOL  for  some- 
vunt  or  other,  if  you  would  come  to  him  ?— 
yes. 

And  ^lat  gentleman,  you  say,  did  give  you 
a  SO/,  note,  and  not  100/.  ?— He  gave  me  a 
9QL  bank-note. 

Be  to  good  as  to  inform  us  what  ebe  he 
gave  you:  did  he  not  give  you  two  great 
trunks  ?-*-Roger  gave  me  them. 

What  you  eot,  and  for  which  you  received 
fO/.  were  two  laige  trunks  f-^There  were  two 
km  trunks. 

Do  you'know  what  waie  the  contents  of 
those  trunks  ? — ^No. 

What  dkl  you  do  with  them?^I  carried. 
Ifaem  over  to  Boulogne. 

You  did  not  then  cany  tiiem  to  your  frieiiA 


Stewart?— I  did  not:    Mr.  Stewart  opened 
one  of  them. 

What  did  it  contain  ?^Draughts ;  maps,  I 
think  they  call  them. 

Prints?— Yes,  and  pictures. 

What  was  in  the  otner  of  them  ?— ^Tbe  nx^ 
del  of  a  gun. 

Then  this  is  all  that  was  contained  in  those 
two  trunks,  for  the  carriage  of  which  to  Boo- 
lome  you  received  «0/.  ? — ^Ycs. 

Mr.  Stewart  aid  not  stop  either  of  them  ?-^ 
No. 

He  packed  them  up  again,  and  then  for- 
warded them  on  immediately,  either  by  your- 
self or  your  sub-captain  ? — ^Yes. 

This  was  the  only  time  you  ever  saw  M. 
De  la  Motte  ? — ^Yes,  to  my  knowledge.  • 

You  are  a  Folkstone  seaman,  are  you? — 
Yes. 

I  don't  know  whether  I  understood  you 
riehtly,  or  no ;  I  understood  you  to  say  that 
M.  De  la  Motte  did  not  talk  to  you  at  all 
about  any  papers  ? — He  talked  about  carrying 
the  papers  over. 

Tnese  two  trunks  ? — Yes. 

But  did  not  talk  about  any  other  papers  ?'^ 
No  farther  than  saying,  **  I  had  not  carried 
quick  enoueh." 

Repeat  tne  words  he  said  upon  that  sub- 
ject?—When  Mr.  Roger  came  up,  he  told 
M.  De  la  Motte  I  was  the  eentleman  ^  he 
said  ''  he  could  not  give  me  the  money." 

Mention  all  that  passed,  and  content  your- 
self with  saying  all  that  passed  ? — To  the  best 
of  my  remembrance,  he  said,  ^  That  the  pn* 
tleman  complained,  over  on  the  other  side, 
that  I  did  not  carry  them  quick  enough,  and 
he  could  not  pay  me  the  money  then,  unless 
I  could  make  satbfaction,  and  cany  tbem 
quicker.** 

Carnr  what  ? — The  papers. 

Did  he  mention  any  tning  about  papers  ? — 
I  can't  say  he  did. 

That  you  did  not  carry  the  things  quick 
enough  ? — ^That  I  did  not  carnr  the  things 
quick  enough,  did  not  give  satisrection. 

Was  this  what  he  said,  and  all  that  he 
said  ? — He  did  not  say  but  very  little  more ; 
it  is  all  I  can  remember. 

Then,  upon  your  oath,  this  is  all  that  you 
recollect;  that  you  did  not  carry  the  things 
quick  enough,  and  therefore  he  could  not  ^ve 
you  the  100/.  Roger  had  been  talking  to  you 
about? — No. 

But  he  directed  Roger  to  deliver  you  these 
two  trunks,  for  the  conveyance  of  which  he 
delivered  you  tO/.  ?^— Yes. 

This,  upon  vour  oath*  b  what  passed,  and 
Ais  is  all  that  passed  oetween  ye  ?— Yes,  to 
the  best  of  my  remembranoe ;  but  there 
mhdit  be  a  word  or  two  more  pass. 

But  if  there  was  any  thinj  else,  it  is  what 
yeu  camiol  remember? — ^It  is;  I  cannot  re- 
member. 

Mr.  So/iAlqr  OmaW.  Tea  said  the  firi- 
soner,  De  la  Motte,  said  you  had  not  carried 
IhetbMg^  quiek  enou^.    What  things  had 


T21] 


Jot  High  Treason. 


A.  D.  1781. 


E72« 


you  caifM  for  Roger  before  ?— Small  papers 
tied  tipy  containing  about  as  much  as  two  or 
three  news-papers  would  be. 

And  you  had  carried  nothing  else  for  Roger^ 
had  you? — ^No. 

You  told  me  that  M.  De  la  Motte  desired 
Boger  to  fetch  the  paper,  and  he  brought  it 
down  to  you  ?— Yes ;  he  did. 
'  Did  you  cany  that  paper,  or  send  it  along 
iKrith  these  trunks?— I  sent  it  in  the  same 
boat. 

You  told  me,  but  I  don't  know  whether  you 
meant  to  say  so  or  not,  that,  as  tfie  reason 
why  M.  De  la  Motte  would  not  give  you  the 
money,  unless  you  went  quicker,  the  news 
got  there  before  what  he  sent  by  you,  and 
therefore  it  was  of  no  use.  Did  he  say  some- 
thing to  that  purpose  ? — ^Yes. 

You  have  not  mentioned  the  time  when 
this  was?-— It  was  some  time  in  November 
last^  I  believe ;  I  cannot  rightly  recollect,  for 
I  never  set  any  thing  down. 

htute  Nickoltu  Roger  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Homortk, 

Do  you  know  M.  Do  la  Motte,  the  prisoner  7 
.-Yes. 

How  long  have  you  known  him  ? — ^About 
two  years. 

Upon  what  occasion  were  you  first  intro- 
duced to  his  acquaintance  ? — ^By  means  of  one 
Mr.  Waltrond. 

For  what  purpose,  and  upon  what  occasion? 
i^To  sell  some  things  of  my  trade. 

That  was  the  first  acquaintanod  you  had 
with  him?— Yes. 

Do  you  know  Stephen  Ratcliffe,  the  last 
witness  that  was  called  ? — ^Yes. 

Were  you  at  any  time,  and  when,  employ- 
ed by  any  body  to  give  to  Ratcliife  any  thing? 
— ^Yes:  I  gave  to  Ratdifle  some  parcels  of 
papers  sometimes. 

"     AVhatv^asto  be  done  with  them  ?-«To  be 
carried  over  to  Boulogne. 

What  were  to  become  of  them,  when  they 
were  to  be  carried  over  to  Boulogne  ? — ^tlie 
papers  were  directed  to  a  Mr.  Smith,  a  mer- 
chant at  Boulogne. 

In  how  many  instances  do  you  recollect 
having  given  papers  to  Katclifie  ? — I  cannot 
remember  that. 

More  times  than  one,  two,  three,  or  four? 
— >Do  you  mean  that  I  have  been  to  RatclifTe  ? 

Y«s,  that  you  have  been  to  Ratclifie? — 
More  than  that. 

Who  paid  Ratcliffe? — ^I  paid  him. 

How  much  were  you  used  to  pay  him  for  a 
trip? — ^I  gave  him  twice  only  15/.  a  time,  the 
other  times  20/. 

Do  you  remember  any  complaint  being 
made  by  RatcUfie  about  the  sum  he  had  re- 
ceived ;  and  did  he  express  any  desire  to  see 
any  pdrson  be^des  you? — ^Yes^  I  remember 
that. 

Whom  did  he  ask  to  see  ?— To  see  M.  De  la 
M^te. 

md  he,  in  consequence  of  that  appUcatioD, 
VOL,  XXI. 


see  M,  De  la  Motte  ? — He  pressed  me  to  see 
M.  De  la  Motte. 

Was  he,  in  consequence  of  that  desire,  in- 
troduced to  him?— I  saw  M.  De  la  Motte  at 
home  at  my  house,  and  he  saw  him  there. 

Did  you  ^ve  any  intimation  to  M.  De  la 
Motte  who  this  RatclifTe  was  that  wanted  to 
speak  with  him  ?— I  said  that  Ratcliife  want- 
ed to  speak  to  him. 

Did  M'.  De  la  Motte  know  who  RatcUffe 
was  ?— I  don't  know  at  all. 

You  did  not  tell  him  then  the  business  he 
w]anted  to  speaJ(  with  him  on  ? — 'So :  I  told 
him  Mr.  Ratclifle  wanted  to  speak  with  him ; 
desired  him  to  call  at  home  to  speak  wiUi  him, 
and  he  did  call. 

Do  you  know'  whether  he  had  ever  seen 
Eatcliite  before? — I  don't  know. 

Or  knew  his  name,  and  nduit  he  was  ? — ^I 
don't  know. 

Had  you  no  talk  with  M.  De  la  Motte  be- 
fore that  time  about  this  Ratclifie  ?— Not  bcs 
fore,  that  I  recollect. 

When  M.  De  la  Motte  met  Ratcliffe  at  youi- 
house^  and  you  had  tokl  M.  De  la  Motte  that 
Ratcliife  wanted  to  speak  with  him,  what  did 
he  say? — He  said,  I  nave  nothing  to  do  with 
Ratclitiie ;  but,  he  said,  I  will  call  upon  you  to 
see  what  he  wants. 

When  he  did  cdl,  idiat  passed  between 
Ratcliffe  and  liim? -.When  Ratcliffe  called,  I 
left  him  and  De  la  Motte  in  my  room ;  I 
don't  know  what  they  did. 

What  room  were  they  in,  in  your  house  ?-^ 
In  a  little  room. 

Who  introduced  M.  De  la  Motte  into  the 
room  ?  Was  Ratdiffe  in  the  room  ? — ^Ratcliffe 
staid  at  home  all  the  day, and  dined  with  me; 
he  was  there  since  ten  o'clock  in  the  morn- 
inff. 

Was  there  any  person  in  the  room  besides 
RatcUffe,  the  priscmer,  and  you? — No :  I  was 
in  the  room  with  Ratcliffe  when  the  prisoner 
came. 

What  did  you  hear  pass  between  them  ?-^ ' 
M.  De  la  Motte  went  directiv  into  the  fore 
room :  I  said  directly  to  Ratcliffe,  there  is  the 
gentleman  that  wants  you. 

Did  you  contimie  in  the  room,  or  then  go 
out? — I  staid  a  few  minutes  in  the  entrance- 
room  where  I  was,  and  from  there  I  went  up 
stairs,  to  fetch  a  packet  to  give  to  Mr.  Rat- 
cliffe, that  Mr.  Waltrond  gave  me  two  days 
before ;  I  took  it,  and  a  long  box  full  of  prints 
he  gave  me  to  take  care  of;  I  gave  that  box 
and  the  packet  to  Ratcliffe  in  the  room. 

Was  De  la  Motte  present  in  the  room  at 
the  time  ?— He  was,  and  told  him  to  take  care 
of  the  prints. 

Who  bid  you  go  up  stairs  to  fetch  the  packlet 
and  the  box  ? — f  don't  believe  I  received  any 
order  from  any  body. 

I  wish  you  would  recollect  who  sent  you  up 
for  that  packet,  or  why  you  ^ent  up  for  it  at 
that  particular  time,  when  De  la  Motte  and 
Ratcliffe  were  present  together  ? — I  was  not  in 
a  hurry  to  give  it  him^  but  as  he  was  going  ott. 

3  A 


72S\ 


21  GEORGE  m. 


Trial  ofF.  JET.  De  la  Matte, 


[724 


How  came  you  to  go  up  stairs  for  this 
picket,  when  M.  De  la  Motte  was  there? — 
Because  I  did  not  know  that  it  was  safe  to 
give  it  iiim  before. 

Who  sent  you  up  for  it? — I  dop't'remembcr 
that  I  received  any  order  for  it;  it  was  my  in-> 
clination  to  go  to  fetch  it,  because  I  knew  1 
had  that  packet  to  give  to  him. 

You  brought  the  packet  down,  and  the 
prints? — ^No;  the  prmts  were  below;  the 
packet  was  up  stairs. 

What  was  paid  Ratcliffe  at  that  time^  and 
by  whom  ? — ^I  did  not  give  any  thing  to  him 
at  that  time. 

Did  any  body  else  give  any  thins  to  him  at 
that  time  ?«-~He  told  me  he  receiv^  20/.  from 
M.De  la  Motte. 

Was  M.  De  la  Motte  present  when  he  told 
you  tliat  ? — ^No ;  that  was  after. 

You  paid  him  nothing  at  that  time  for  that  ? 

How  long  were  M.  De  la  Motte  and  Rat- 
cliffe together  ? — Five  minutes,  I  think,  but  I 
cannot  tell  about  the  time :  it  was  not  long : 
they  did  not  sit  down. 

I  ask  you,  upon  your  oath,  whether,  before 

■that  time,  or  after  that  time,  you  received 

any  packets  from  M.  De  la  Motte? — I  can't 

tell  bow  many  I  received  from  M.  De  la 

Motte, 

I  don*t  want  to  know  how  many  you  re- 
ceived from  M.  De  la  Motte :  did  you  receive 
some  before,  and  some  after  that? — ^Yes. 

What  did  you  receive  them  for  ?— -To  give 
tP  Ratdiffe. 

For  what  purpose  ? — ^To  \»rry  over  to  Bou- 
^gne. 

When  these  packets  were  delivered,  had 
you  any  orders  from  any  person  to  give  Rat* 
cliffe  directions  about  them,  as  to  the  dispatch 
he  was  to  make  ? — ^The  direction  always  was 
upon  it. 

Did  you  receive  orders  from  any  person, 

^d  did  you  s;ive  those  orders  to  Ratchffe,  to 

make  dispatch? — The  order  was  given  by  Mr. 

Waltrona  the  first  time ;  I  don't  remember 

"  that  I  gave  any  order. 

Have  you  at  any  other  time? — I  never 
spoke  about  any  body  at  all,  that  I  remember. 

When  the  packets  lyere  delivered  you,  for 
the  purpose  of  being  given  to  Ratcliffe  to  carry 
abroad,  were  any  directions  given  by  any  per^ 
son  whether  he  was  to  make  haste,  or  what  ? 
— I  never  gave  any  directions.  Mr.  Waltrond 
gave  them  the  first  time. 

Who  was  Mr.  Waltrond?— A  friend  of  M. 
De  la  Motte's. 

What  business  was  he? — I  don't  know :  at 
first  he  was  in  the  smuggling  way. 

What  was  he  when  he  brought  you  these 
packets? — I  know  he  has  his  family  in  Paris; 
and  I  came  over  with  him  first. 

He  is  a  Frenchman? — Yes.  . 

Did  he  carry  on  any  business  that  you  know 

of  at  the  time  you  w^re  carrying  these  packets 

Jfi  Ratcliffe  ? — He  sometimes  sent  some  prints 

over :  he  was  a  friend  of  Itf.  De  la  ^otte'a: 


he  told  me  several  times  he  was  in  partner* 
ship  with  him. 

Don*t  mention  what  he  told  you.  Where 
is  he  now  ? — In  Paris. 

How  long:  is  it  since  he  went  there? — He 
went  there  me  Sunday  before  Christmas. 

Do  you  know  a  sentleman  of  the  name  of 
Luttferloh  ? — ^Yes ;  1  know  him  very  well. 

Have  vou  carried  any  letters  at  any  time  t» 
Lutterlon? — ^No;  I  have  never  been  at  Mr. 
Lutterloh's.  I  know  him ;  and  have  seen  hini 
about  four  or  five  times. 

Where  have  you  seen  him  ?, — ^I  think  it  wa» 
the  first  time,  or  the  second,  that  he  called 
upon  me  when  I  was  not  at  home :  he  left 
his  directions. 

Have  you  at  any  time  seen  him  in  the  com«> 
pany  of  De  la  Motte? — Yes;  I  saw  him  twQ 
or  three  times  after  with  M.  De  la  Motte. 

Where  ?~-In  M.  De  la  Motte's  apart- 
ments. 

Any  where  else? — ^No ;  I  don't  remeniber. 

Do  you  recollect  how  long  ago  it  was  ?-« 
No;  I  don't  remember  what  time. 

About  how  long  a^  is  it? — ^I think,  for 
about  five  months  before  De  la  Motte  wa» 
taken  up. 

I  see  you  have  had  a  good  deal  of  trouble^ 
.Who  used  to  pay  you  tor  your  trouble? — I 
don't  know. 

Upon  your  oath,  have  not  you  been  paid 
for  tne  trouble  you  have  taken? — ^Yes,  I  havi^ 
been  paid  myself  for  my  trouble. 

Who  paid  you? — Mr.  Waltrond  and  M. 
De  la  Motte,  both  paid  me. 

How  much  did  you  use  to  receive? — Eight 
guineas  a  month. 

Any  thing  besides  that?— No. 

Were  you  at  your  own  expences? — ^No^  I 
did  receive  always  the  money  for  the  stage. ' 

You  have  been  paid  these  eight  guineas, 
you  say,  both  by  Waltrond  and  De  la  Motte  l 
— Yes. 

What  do  you  mean  by  the  stage  jou  were 
p{ud  for  ?— The  stage  coach  firom  Piccadilly;; 
Mr»  Waltrond  gave  me  only  a  guinea  for  my 
stage. 

What  do  you  mean  by  being  paid  for  your 
stage  ?  where  was  it  to  carry  you  to  ? — Caiv- 
terbury. 

Were  you  used  to  recdve  letters  that  were 
to  be  left  at  your  house  for  any  body? — ^Ye^ 
sometimes  Mr.  Waltrond  gave  me  airectione 
to  somebody ;  I  don't  know  whom. 

Do  you  remember  any  post  marks  upoli 
any  letters  you  received?— When  I  received 
them,  I  did  not  take  notice. 

To  whom  did  you  carry  these  letters  ?-« 
Mostly  when  Mr.  Waltrond  was  at  homtf: 
when  he  expected  letters,. he  used  to  diuft 
with  me. 

Did  you  ever  carry  any  to  M.  De  la  Motte  f 
— Yes,  one  or  two. 

Do  you  recollect  to  whom  they  were  dtc 
rectedr— I  never  minded  that  at  all. 

Were  the  letters  addressed  to  Waltrond,  to 
,  M«  De  ia  Motte,  or  to  any  person  that  yoix 


725] 


for  High  Treason* 


A.D.  1781. 


[726. 


can  remember? — ^No  more  than  to  Mr.  Roger, 
No.  SO,  Greek-street,  Soho. 
•  Did  you  open  them,  or  give  them  unopen- 
ed ? — ^I  never,  opened  one. 

How  came  yoii,  then,  to  deliver  letters,  un- 
opened, to  Waltrond  and  De  la  Motte,  which 
ivere  directed  to  yourself? — I  had  no  letters 
at  all  to  receive  for  myself.  Mr.  Waltrond 
asked  me  if  I  would  do  so;  and  I  did  not 
care. 

Had  you  any  directions  to  deliver  them  to 
M.  De  ia  Motte  ?— No. 

You  did,  in  many  instances,  you  say,  de- 
liver letters  to  M.  De  la  Motte :  how  came 
you  to  do  that?— rM.  De  la  Motte  came  to 
me ;  when  I  see  there  arc  letters  for  WaU 
trond,  as  I  think,  De  la  Motte  has  taken  the 
letter^  and  opened  them. 

What  was  done  with  the  letters  afler  he 
had  opened  them  ?  did  he  leave  them,  or  take 
them  away  with  him  ? — He  never  left  them 
with  me.  Sometimes  he  burnt  some ;  but  he 
iiever  read  one  to  me. 

Do  you  know  what  the  post  mark  was  ?-^t 
never  minded,  at  all,  the  post  mark.  I  be- 
lieve it  was  from  France;  because  I  paid 
sometimes  6^.  sometimes  U,  Qd.  and  some- 
times 2s.  for  the  postage. 
^  Had  they  any  English  letters  ?— The 'direc- 
tions were  always  in  English. 

Can  you  recollect  what  post  marks  were 
upon  any  of  these  letters  ?  do  you  recollect 
the  name  of  the  town  or  place  ? — I  can*t  tell. 
J  never  took  any  notice  of  that. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Peckham, 

I  think  you  said,  just  now,  you  knew  but 
^ery  little  of  Mr.  Lutterloh? — ^I  liave  seen 
^im  four  or  five  times. 

Were  you  examined  before  the  grand  jury  ? 
•^Yes. 

Was  Mr.  Lutterloh  examined  at  the  same 
time? — ^Yes. 

You  are,  I  think,  a  toy-man  ? — ^Yes. 

You  became  acquainted,  vou  say,  with  De 
ia  Motte,  being  introduced  to  him  by  Mr. 
Waltrond  ?— Yes. 

Has  De  la  Motte  purchased  of  you,  toys  of 
various  articles,  and  to  various  amounts  ?«-I 
have  sold  some  prints  to  him.  When  M.  De 
ia  Motte  came  to  me  first,  he  saw  some  prints 
I  had  at  home ;  he  said.  You  have  sot  some 
very  fine  prints  there ;  he  said,  he  should  be 
clad  if  I  would  take  the  trouble  to  buy  some 
n>r-him:  t  said,  with  all  my  heart:  and  I 
bought,  for  him,  firom  last  July  or  August,  till 
December;  I  paid,  myself,  300/.  for  prints  I 
purchased  for  fiim. 

Do  you  know  whether  De  la  Motte  pur- 
chased any  other  articles  that  would  be  valu- 
able upon  the  Continent? — Many  of  these,  I 
know,  went  abroad,  beotuse  I  myself  carried 
•them  abroad. 

Were  they  sent  abroad  by  De  la  Motte? — 
Ye*. 

To  wham  did  yott  deliver  then  ?— Mr.  Bar- 
frens,  at  Ostend, 


I  hardly  need  ask  you,  whether  Ostend  is 
not  in  the  Austrian  Netherlands,  and  does 
not  belong  to  France? — ^It  belongs  to  the 
Emperor. 

Mr.  Barwens  is  a  merchant  at  Ostend  ?•--» 
Yes. 

Did  you  ever  carry  any  prints  for  De  la 
ISlIotte  to  any  other  place  than  to  Ostend  ? — 
I  gave  some  to  Ratcliffe. 

Did  you  carry  any  of  these  prints  to  any 
other  place,  save  Ostend  ? — I  sent  some  to  a 
Mr.  Le  Clerk's,  at  Ostend. 

Were  those  likewise  prints? — ^It  was  the 
same :  it  was  a  square  box;  and  there  was,  X 
saw,  a  print  in  it. 

Do  you  know  whether  De  la  Motte  dealt 
in  any  other  articles  besides  prints  ?  Did  he 
purchase  toys,  or  any  thing  of  that  kind  ?— 
There  were  some  toys  he  purchased  of  me ;  I 
sold  him  some  tooth-pick  cases,  smelling* 
bottles  and  cases,  and  snuff-boxes  -.  these  are 
what  I  make  myself. 

Do  you  know  whether  he  dealt  in  any  Bir- 
mingham goods? — He  often   spoke  to  me 
about  Birmmgham :  I  ^ve  myself  to  Rat- 
cliffe a  packet  with  Birnunghapi  goods  in  it; . 
and  it  is  lost. 

Was  that  packet  given  to  Ratcliffe  by  the 
order  of  M.  De  la  Motte } — ^Yes ;  I  received 
the  order  of  M.  De  la  Motte,  and  gave  it  tQ 
Ratcliffe. 

Waltrond  dealt  in  contraband  goods  ?-« 
Yes ;  he  carried  on  a  trade  in  them.  Afler 
that,  he  had  a  plate  in  the  Temple ;  and  he 
began  agun  the  trade. 

At  the  time  you  used  to  buy  goods  for  M« 
De  la  Motte,  Waltrond  dealt  in  contraband 
eood»? — ^Yes,  I  bought  some  myself,  som^ 
lace,  for  him. 

I  think  you  said  M.  De  la  Motte  knew  no- 
thing of  RatcUffe?— I  think  M.  De  la  Motte 
never  saw  Ratcliffe. 

He  told  you  he  knew  nothing  of  him,  and 
that  he  wondered  what  he  wanted  with  him? 
— ^When  I  told  him  Ratcliffe  wanted  to  speak 
to  him,  he  said.  What  does  that  man  want 
with  me? 

Waltrond,  you  say,  had  given  you  a  packet 
two  days  before  M.  De  la  Motte  and  Ratcliffe 
met  at  your  house  ? — ^Yes. 

And  while  M.  De  la  Motte  was  there,  you 
went  up  stairs  and  fetched  that  packet^  and 
gave  it  to  Mr.  Ratcliffe  ? — ^Yes. 

Was  that  the  packet,  andjhe  onlyjpacket, 
that  went  from  your  house  by  Ratcline  with 
the  two  boxes? — It  was  one  packet,  and  a 
round  box,  which  I  gave  to  nim ;  he  put  a 
padlock  to  the  box^ 

Did  you  see  that  box  opened  ?— I  put  the 
prints  into  it  myself:  then  Mr.  Ratcliffe  lock^ 
ed  it  up.  M.  De  la  Motte  recommended  me 
to  put  some  oil-cloths  round  it.  Ratcliffe  took 
out  of  his  pocket  a  padlock,  and  put  it  to  thai 
box. 

So  you  put  the  prints  into  the  box?— Yes. 

Was  there  in  that  box  any  thing  but  prints? 
—No;  I  packed  them  up« 


727] 


21  G£0BGE  UL 


Ttiat  off,  H.  De  la  Motte, 


1728 


You  have  been  asked  some  questions  about 
some  letters  that  had  been  left  at  your  house. 
All  the  addresses  of  the  letters  were  in  £ng- 
lisjji,  were  they  not? — ^Yes. 

Mr.  Waltrond  had  no  house  of  his  own,,  I 
beUeve :  he  live!d  in  lodgings?— He  did. 

And  went  from  place  to  place  to  collect 
these  contraband  articles  whicn  he  dealt  in  ? — 
Yes. 

As  you  were  am  acquaintance  of  Waltrond's, 
rou  were  not,  I  suppose,  much  surprised  that 
he  should  desire  to  have  his  letters  hit  at 
your  house  ? — No :  he  was  my  friend. 

Having  no  certain  place  of  abode,? — No ; 
he  had  a  lodging.  ^ 

AValtrondy  you  say,  was  acquainted  with  M. 
DelaMotte?— Yes, 

Therefore,  if  M.  De  la  Motte  .happened  tp 
come  to  your  house  when  you  had  a 
letter  directed  to  Mr.  Waltrond,  and  Mr. 
Waltrond  was  not  there  to  see  it,  then  M. 
De  la  Motte  took  tluit  letter  to  cany  to  Wal- ' 
trond,  supposine  he  might  see  him  sooner 
than  you  would? — I  don't  know  what  he 
might  do  with  it. 

Mr.  Howorth.  Perhaps  you  may  have  seen 
what  these  Birmingham  goods  were  ? — A. 
No.    , 

Do  you  recollect  seeing  the  model  of  a  gun  ? 
—Yes ;  it  was  in  the  box. 

When  you  have  b^en  carrying^  over  to  Os- 
tend  and  other  places  these  pnnts,  did  you 
ever  ta^e  any  paper  or  packet  besides? — A, 
Yes;  I  took  some  letters. 

From  whom.?-^M.  De  la  Motte  and  Mr. 
Waltrond.      . 

Who  did  you  carry  them  to?-^I  gave  some 
to  one  Mr.  Lefevre,  of  Ostend;  and  gave 
them  when  they  took  the  packets  to  Mr.  Bar- 
wen's. 

Where  were  the  packets  to  be  conveyed  to  ? 
i— They  were  directed  to  Mr.  Lefevre,  of  Os- 
tend, and  to  Mr.  Barwen's. 

And  where  were  they  to  eo  to  from  Ostend 
together  with  the  prints  ?--?rhe  packets  were 
carried  sometimes  to  Paris,  to  Mr.  Dessein. 
Mr.  Lefevre  was  sit  Ostend,  as  a  man  there, 
for  Mr.  Dessein,  and  he  took  the  packet,  and 
carried  it  to  Mr.  Dessein ;  that  is  what  be 
)k>ld  me  himself. 

Court,  What  he  told  vou  is  not  evidence. 

Mr.  Howorth,  You  don't  know  that  youT'- 
aclf?— J.    No. 

Were  you  paid  for  going  to  Ostend  each 
journey  ? — I  received  ten  guineas^  twelve  gui* 
neas,  and  fifteen  pounds. 

And  your  expences  besides  N— No ;  for  all. 

Have  you  made  these  journeys  for  any 
•other  person  besides  ]tf.  De  la  Motte?— For 
Mr.  Waltrond  and  M.  De  la  Motte. 

Have  you  made  these  journeys  for  any 
other  person  besides  Mr.  Waltropd  and  M. 
DelaMotte?— No. 

Did  ytHi  pay  any  pmoo,  when  3rou  were 
tver  there,  for  forwarding  these  packets? — 
Ko  ;  I  gave  them  to  Lefevre. 

What  is  he?>-Ue  b  these  a  servajoi  to 


make  the  trade  for  Mr.  Dessein;   he 
sent  to  buy  carriages,  or  any  thing,  for  Mr. 
Dessein.  ^ 

WcFeckkam.  You  say  you  had  recoved 
from  10  to  15/.  a  voyage  ? — A,  Yes. 

How  oAen  have  you  received  that  fiom  M« 
De  la  Motte  ? — I  cannot  tell  that. 

Did  Mr..  Waltrond  or  M.  De  la  Motte  pay 
you?— I  believe  Mr.  Waltrond  paid  me  tM 
money  first. 

How  often  have  you  been  these  trips?—* 
About  six  times  in  six  months. 

How  many  times  did  Waltrond  pay  yoq 
afterwards  ? — I  am  sure  I  received  from  M. 
De  la  Motte  one  or  two  times,  or  two  or  three 
times. 

When  these  trunks  were  carried  to  OjBteady 
there  you  delivered  them?— Yes. 

'  But  you  do  not  know,  you  did  not  see  with 
your  own  eyes,  that  they  ever  went  firom  0&> 
tend  ?— No. 

licfevre,  you  say,  is  a  person  who  acts  for 
Mr.  Dessein,  of  Calais  ? — Yes. 

Does  not  Lefevre  live  at  Ostend  ?-=-Yes. 

{las  he  an  house  or  shop  there,  and  atteads 
the  market  to  bMy  goods? — ^He  has  a  room 
there. 

And  he  purchases  goods  for  lAi.  Dessein,  of 
C^alus,  you  believe ? — Yes:  when  I  was  ther^ 
I  said  to  Lefevre,  It  is  better  for  you,  U*  vou 
can ;  and  he  set  off  sometimes  the  next  my, 
sometimes  the  same  day,  for  Mr.  D^taein. 

And  he  was  employed  for  Dessein? — \ 
don't  know.:  I  have  seen  him  there. 

Mr.  Homorth,  And  you  saw  him  set  off  with 
the  packet  ? — A,  Yes. 

Do  you  know  that  he  took  the  packet  wttli 
him  ? — ^No. 

You  often  went  in  tiie  stase  firom  London 
to  Canterbury  ?->^Yes,  when  1  gave  the  packet 
to  Batcliffe. 

Court.  When  you  went  fix>m  London  to 
Cahterbuiy  in  the  stage,  and  carried  a  packet, 
which  }rou  delivered  to  Ratdiffe,  did  yeu  cany 
any  tmng  else  with  you? — A,  I  do  not  re* 
member  tnat'I  did. 

Court,  Didvyou  at  any  one  time,  idieh  you 
went,  go  with  a  packet  only,  without  tauf 
other  pavcel  ? — A,    I  do  not  remember  thai. 

When  you  went  fix>m  London  to  Caatep- 
bui^,  did  you  cany  any  ^ing  except  paper 
with  you? — I  never  went  to  take  aay  thipg 
else. 

Then,  when  you  went  from  London  to  Caft* 
teibuiy  with  nothing  else  but  the  paper,  yoa 
received  fiteht  guineas  for  going  to  Caatar* 
bury  ?— Eight  guineas  a  month. 

And  how  often  did  jrou  go  6xnm  to  Canteiw 
bury  ? — I  have  hecai  always  tiuree  or  four  tunes 
a  month. 

Mr.  Dmnni^g.  These  eight  gomeas  a 
month  were  also  for  what  you  did  in  tawtti 
^A,  Yes. 

The  whole  emplovment  jpu  bad  untor 
these  pebpte  vrtfs  |MnQ  for  at  ei|^  guineas  % 
month  ?  that  wa^  for  ail  you.did,  whether  bf 
going  into  the  country,  or  what  you  did  in 


1«0 


J^  High  TreMon. 


A.  D.  1^81. 


t790 


town? — ^I  wiis  paid  for  the  carriage  too. 
When  I  bou^t  prints  for  M.  De  la  Motte,  he 
always  paid  me  a  shilling  in  the  guinea  com- 

mission. 

The  only  question  I  meant  to  put  to  you 
was,  whether  these  ei^t  g^neas  included 
parent  for  any  thing  dont  m  town,  or  any 
thing  besides  your  ioumeys  to  Canterbury? 
What  were,  you  to  be  paid  eight  guineas  a 
month  for  ?  Did  you  receive  that  eight  gui- 
neas a  month  for  the  whole  that  you  aid  ?  for 
going  to  Ostend,  for  buying  the  prints,  and 
Sie  whole?  or  was  it  only  for  ^ing  to  Can- 
terbury ? — ^I  received  eight  guineas  a  month, 
when  I  was  to  go  to  Canterbuiy,  or  to  Folk- 
filone.    I  have  been  two  or  three  times  to 

Mr,  Jo$eph  Stewart  swera. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Norton. 

Where  do  you  live  ? — ^At  Sandwich. 

I>o  you  know  Mr.  Ratcli£fe? — ^I  do  veiy 
wen. 

Was  any  application  made  to  you,  by  Mr. 
Batcli£Fe,  about  the  month  of  July  last? — * 
There  was. 

What  was  the  nature  of  that  application  ? 
Mr.  Ratcliffe  delivered  to  me  a  packet,  which, 
]ae  said,  he  was  employed  by  Mr.  Roger  to 
carry  over  to  Boulogne ;  which  packet  he  was 
to  deliver  to  the  commissary  there. 

Mr.  OuTtning,  Do  not  mention  what  he 
•aid  to  you :  what  did  he  do  ?^ — A,  He  deli- 
vered to  me  a  packet  at  Folkstone. 

What  did  you  do  with  that  packet  ?-~I 
brought  it  to  town. 

Have  you  any  minutes  ? — I  have,  Prefers  to 
his  minutes)  I  received  it  upon  the  3a  of  July, 
at  Folkstone.  I  broueht  it  to  town  imme- 
diately :  and  on  the  4tn,  early  in  the  morn- 
ing, I  delivered  it  into  the  hand  of  sir  Staqyer 
Porten,  at  his  house,  in  St.  JamesVplace. 

What  sort  of  packets  were  they  ? — This  was 
{rat  up  in  a  piece  of  wliite  paper,  tied  with  a 
string,  and  sealed  up. 

Oi  what  size  ? — ^To  the  best  of  my  recol- 
lection, the  first  was  not  so  large  a  packet  as 
many  subsequent  ones.  I  apprehend  the  first 
l^acket  might  weigh  about  three  quarters  pf  a 
pound. 

What  size  was  it?— I  believe  the  size 
might  be  nearly  that  (about  four  inches  by 
nine.) 

Was  aay  superscription  upon  it? — ^Yes,  it 
was  directed  for  a  Mr.  Smithy  negociant,  at 
Boulogne. 

What  became  of  that  packet? — Sir  Stan- 
yer  Porien  aaid,  the  packet  must  be  opened. 
and  the  contents  looked  into.  I  was  aesirea 
to  wait,  to  see  wlicther  ,it  was  to  be  returned 
iff  not :  I  waited  tevetal  hours.  I  delivered 
the  packet  to  sir  Stanyer  Porten,  I  believe, 
about  six  in  the  motaiiig.  Sir  Stanyer  was 
in  bed ;  I  called  him  up,  and  I  believe  I  re- 
ceived it  back  again  al>out  one.  I  carried  it 
4)%:k;ByaeIf  W  FolkslOBey  and^ve  it  lo  fiat- 
cMe. 


What  packet  did  you  receive  next  ?— The 
next  which  came  to  my  hand^,  I  did  not  re- 
ceive from  Ratcliffe ;  I  was  not  in  the  way, 
and  it  was  delivered  to  a  friend  of  mine  at 
Folkstone.  It  was  given  to  me  at  Sandgale^ 
near  Folkstone,  by  Mr.  Farley  of  Folk* 
stone. 

Go  on  to  the  next  packet  ? — Oh  the  16th 
of  July,  I  received,  from  Ratcliffe,  at  Canter* 
buiy,  another  packet;  that  paeket  I  put  op 
into  a  cover,  and  sent  it,  by  a  postroffice  ex* 
press,  to  Mr.  Stephens,  of  the  Admiralty  :  I 
wrote,  in  that  cover,  a  direction  to  whom  he 
was  to  deliver  it  I  received  that  same  packet 
back  again,  at  Canterbury,  in  the  night  be- 
tween the  17th  and  18th  of  July,  about  mid- 
night, or  perhaps  rather  afler.  It  was  brought 
back  to  me  by  a  Mr.  Winchester,  a  messen- 
ger of  the  Admiralty :  he  came  to  my  bed 
side  with  it. 

What  was  done  with  that  packet  af\er  yoa 
received  it  ? — I  had  a  servant  of  mine  there 
in  waiting :  I  put  th^  packet  into  «  cover, 
and  sent  it  to  a  builder,  at  Sandgate,  who 
knew  the  direction,  one  Mr.  Wilson. 

Is  he  here  ?— No.  On  the  2d  of  August^ 
in  the  morning,  I  met  Ratcliffe  on  Westnun-* 
ster-bridee :  I  was  coming  to  town  in  a  posi- 
chaise ;  ne  was  going  down  in  the  diligence; 
he  stept  out  of^the  diligence,  and  cot  into 
my  chaise ;  he  gave  me  a  packet  urakh  he 
said  he  had  just  received  from  Roger,  to  ctgvy 
to  Boulogne.  I  carried  that  to  sir  Stanyer 
Porten,  and  delivered  it  myself:  I  waited  till 
the^  had  done  with  it,  and  then  took  it^  and 
carried  it,  back  to  Sandgate,  and  gave  it  to  Rat- 
cliffe. On  the  10th  ot  August,  I  received  in 
the  eveninz  another  packet,  at  Canterbury^ 
from  Ratcfiffe.  One  Scot^  an  Admiralty 
messenffer,  went  to  Canterbury  with  me ;  I 
gave  it  him,  and  he  took  it  up  to  the  Adni. 
ralty.  I  received  that  packet  t>ack,  by  Scott, 
at  my  own  house,  at  Sandwich ;  and  I  sent  it 
by  my  servant  to  Sandeate,  under  a  cover^  di- 
rected to  Mr.  Wilson,  for  him  to  deliver  it  te 
Ratcliffe.  On  the  18th  of  the  same  month, 
I  received  at  Sandvrich  a  packet  from  oae 
Lewis  Benfield,  who  brought  it  me  from  Rat^ 
cliffe  :  he  was  one  of  the  boatswains  of  the 
boat. 

Mr.  Peckkam.    Is  he  here  ? — A,  No. 

Mr.  Ptekham,  Then  that  is  d(me  with; 
that  must  be  scratched  out. 

Stewart,  On  the  30th,  I  was  at  Sittings 
borne ;  goine  down  the  road,  I  met  a  messen- 
ger from  Folkstone^  coming  to  me,  one  Mr. 
Richard  Broome  of^  Folkstone. 

Mr.  Peckkam.  Is  he  here  ?— %i.  Not  to  tny 
knowledge. 

Mr.  Peckham,    Then  that  is  nothing. 
.    Stewart,    The  next  packet  went  Surough 
my  son's  hands,  and  not  through  mine. 

Is  your  son  here? — ^He  is.  I  never  saw 
the  packet :  I  knew  there  was  due  coming, 
and  sent  l&im  to  receive  it.  There  was  one 
about  the  33d  of  August;  but  I  caaTt  speak 
perfecUy  to  that* 


731] 


«  GfiORGB  ni. 


Trud  qfP.  H.DeU  MoUtt 


[732 


^Attorney  General,  Pass  over  any  that  you 
can't  speak  to  particularly. 

Stewart.  On  the  15th  of  September,  I  re- 
ceived, at  Canterbury,  from  the  hands  of  Rat- 
clifFe,  another  packet :  I  sent  that,  by  a  post- 
dffice  express,  to  sir  Stanyer  Porten  ;  and  re- 
ceived it  back  again,  from  him,  at  Folkstone, 
on  the  17th,  in  the  morning,  by  an  express. 
I  gave  It  into  the  hands  of  one  Wilson,  who 
is  since  dead :  he  was  one  that  belonged  to 
IUtcliffe*s  boa!t.  On  the  18th  of  November, 
I  received  another  packet,  at  Canterbury, 
from  RaiclifFe;  I  sent  that,  by  a  post-office 
express,  to  Mr.  Stephens,  at  the  Admiralty, 
who  returned  it  back  in  the  same  manner  to 
Canterbury :  after  I  received  it  back,  I  sent 
it^  by  a  post-office  express,  to  London ;  de- 
siring Mr.  Stephens  to  return  it  back  to  me. 
in  the  same  manner,  to  Canterbury.  I  could 
not,  with  convenience,  go  to  Canterbury  my- 
self, but  I  sent  a  servant  to  bring  itfrom  Can- 
terbury to  me,  at  Sandgate :  I  received  it  at 
Sandgate,  and  gave  it  there  myself  to  Rat- 
clifife.  The  next  I  received,  was  on  the  16th 
cf  December,  in  the  evenino;,  firom  Ratcliffe, 
at  Sandwich,  where  I  live :  I  brought  that  to 
liondon  myself,  and  delivered  it  upon  the 
17tb,  at  night,  to  sir  Stanjrer  Porten;  I  re- 
ceived it  back  again,  from  him,  on  the  18th : 
I  put  it  up  in  a  cover,  and  tent  it  by  express 
to  Canterbury :  I  ordered  it  to  be  |;iTen  to 
Ratcliffe;  and  I  saw  it  afterwards  m  Rat- 
•cliffe's  hands. 

Do  you  know  of  any  other  packets  deliver- 
ed to  you  from  Ratcliffe? — I  had  several 
which  came  from  Boulogne. 

Attorney  General,  Tnat  is  not  enquired 
into. 

Cross^xamined  by  Mr.  Peckham. 

Were  there  any  packets  that  you  received, 
with  your  own  hands,  from  Ratcliffe  himself, 
which  were  delivered  into  the  hande  of  sir 
Stanyer  Porten  ? — ^Yes,  I  delivered  onelo  him 
on  tne  4th  of  July;  that  which  I  received  on 
the  Sd  from  Ratcliffe's  own  hands. 

Do  you  knQ:w  of  any  other  ? — On  the  17th 
of  December,  I  delivered  one  to  him,  which 
I  received  firom  Ratcliffe  on  the  16th ;  that 
Is  all. 

Bir  Stanyer  Porten  sworn. 

'    Examined  by  Mr.  Attorney  General, 

You  are  in  the  office  of  my  k)rd  Hills- 
through,  one  of  the  sec^taries  of  state  ? — ^I 

am. 

Did  you  ever  receive,  from  a  Mr.  Stewart, 
jmy  packet? — Several. 

^  1  mean,  directly  from  the  hands  of  Mr. 
Stewart? — I  received  several,  from  his  own 
<]buids,  and  others,  that  be  transmitted  to  me. 
'  Have  you  any  minutes  of  those  you  receiv- 
ed from  nis  own  hands  ? — The  first  I  remem- 
iier  perfectly ;  I  received  it  on  the  4th  of  July 
last  year. 

Did'  vou  cause  it  to  be  opened  ? — ^I  carried 
^  myself  to  Uie  postK^ffice^  there  it  was  open* 


ed,  and  I  read  the  contents  of  it :  afler  that, 
while  somebody  else  copied  oUc  of  the  letters, 
I  copied  two  myself. 

Did  you  take  the  copies  of  all  three?— I 
have  the  copies  of  all  three ;  two  in  my  own 
hand,  and  one  in  another  person's. 

Who  is  that  other  gentleman? — ^I  forget 
his  name,  but  here  is  a  person  here,  who,  I 
believe  will  swear  to  it. 

Did  you  copy  hi  the  same  place  9 — No,  in 
'  different  rooms :  I  was  by  myself 

Had  you  rc^  the  dispatch  which  he  copied  ^ 
— ^I  did,  before  he  copied  it. 

Now,  sir  Stanyer,  after  you  read  this  "dis- 
patch, and  had  taken  copies,  what  did  you  do 
with  the  paperst — The  orisinals  were  given 
to  one  in  the  post-office,  wKo  made  them  up 
in  the  cover  again,  as  I  supposed,  and  he  de- 
livered the.  packet  back  to  me.  The  originals 
I  delivered  back  to  Mr.  Stewart. 

We  will  first  go  to  those  you  received  from> 
the  hands  of  Mr.  Stewart. — I  received  ano« 
ther,  firom  Mr. 'Stewart,  on  the  5Sd  of  August; 
I  carried  it  myself  to  the  post-office ;  it  was' 
opened,  and  I  read  all  the  contents,  but  took, 
no- copies  of  them  myself. 

Were  any  copies  taken  ? — ^They  were  taken 
by  some  of^the  gentlemen  at  the  post-office,, 
liie  packet  with  the  originals,  after  they  were 
put  in  again,  was  delivered  to  me. 

What  oecame  of  the  copies? — ^The  copies 
were  sent  to  me  in  another  packet. 

You  have  these  copies  ? — i  have. 

What  did  you  do  with  the  packet  that  con- 
t^ned  the  onginals? — ^I  conveyed  that  to  Mr. 
Stewart. 

Do  you  know  of  any  others  ?— There  were 
several  others  which  were  conveyed  to  me  by 
Mr.  Stewart ;  but  I  never  saw  the  contents  of 
them,  only  those  of  the  4th  of  July  and  the 
l^d  of  Aueust ;  not  the  originals. 

What  aid  you  do  with  them,  then,  when 
they  came  to  you  ?— I  delivered  them  to  Mr. 
Todd,  at  the  post-office,  tmder  another  cover. 

What  was  to  be  done  with  them  at  thei 
postroffice?— I  desired  them  to  copy  them,  to 
return  the  originals  in  the  origmal  packet^ 
and  send  the  copies  to  iQe. 

How  did  you  direct  your  covers  ?— To  An- 
thony Todd,  6sq. 

On  the  outside  what  was  there?— Twa 
covers  r  the  inside  was  marked  'private,'  that 
he  might  open  them  himself,  or  one  of  his 
trusty  officers. 

Did  you  receive  those  packets  back  again 
as  'the  packets  containing  the  originals  f— I 
regularly  received  the  onginal  packet^  and 
the  copie?  too,  in  different  packets ;  then  I 
eitiier  delivered  them  into  Mr.  Stewart's  owil 
hands,  or  conveyed  them  to  him,  either 
through  the  hands  of  Mr.  Stephens,  of  the 
Admiralty,  by  expresses  of  the  post-office,  or 
by  the  Admiralty  messengers,  and  ordered 
them  to  be  forwarded  to  the  places  to  which 
they  were- directed. 

Please  to  produce  those  you  can  sptek  ta 
yourself.— These  ^producing  them)  at«  of  th« 


73S] 


Jbr  High  Treason. 


4th  of  July ;  two  of  them  are  copied  by  my- 
self, No.  9f  and  No.  3 ;  No.  1  was  copied  by 
aaother  person. 

Did  you  read  the  original  of  No.  i,  before  it 
was  copied? — ^Yes,  I  did. 

Did  you  read  tbie  copy  made  by  the  clerk  of 
the  post-office,  afler  it  was  made?-^I  did. 

Mr.  Dunning.  The  ori^nal  you  had  not 
in  your  possession,  to  compare  wilh  it  ? — A. 
No. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr*  Peckham, 

There  were  three  letters  in  all,  on  the  3d  of 
Jidy  ?— Yes;  No.  1,  3,  and  3. 

Two  of  which  you  copied  yourself? — Yes :  I 
Qiade  an  extract  of  No.  3,  because  the  latter 
part  only  related  to  private  affairs. 

No.  1,  you  did  not  copy  ? — No. 

Neither  did  you  compare  the  copy  with  the 
original  ? — I  did  not. 

How  many  letters  on  the  2d  of  August  did 
you  copy  yourself? — ^I  did  not  copy  one. 

Then  the  only  one  you  know  any  thing  of 
by  copying  yourself  is  No.  3  ?  Who  did  you 
give  those  originals  to  at  the  post-office  ? — I 

fave  them  either  to  Mr.  Todd,  or  a  Mr.  Mad- 
isonfswho  is  the  nephew  of  Mr.  Todd. 

Or  to  a  Mr.  Somebody  else,  whose  name 
you  may  have  forgot  ? — ^No,  never. 

You  cannot  recollect  who  the  gentleman 
was  that  you  gave  them  to  ? — ^That  on  the  .4th 
9f  July,  I  think,  to  Mr.  Maddison/ 

How.  many  did  you  give  to  either  one  or  the 
other,  tm  the  2d  of  August  ?— One,  and  two 
yiclosures  in  it 

To  whom  did  you  give  those  three  ?--Either 
to  Mr.  Todd  or  Mr.  Maddison,  you  may  de- 
pend upon  it. 

Mr.  John  Maddiion  Sworn, 
Examined  by  Mr.  Solicitor  General. 

You  are  in  office  in  the  post-office  ? — I  am. 

Do  you  remember  sir  Stanyer  Porlen  at  any 
time  bringing  some  packets  to  you  on  the  1st 
^f  July? — ^Yes. 

Do  you  remember  the  contents  of  that 
packet  being  copied  by  any  person  ? — ^Yes. 

Look  at  the  copy.  No.  ].  Whose  hand- 
writing is  that  ? — It  is  the  hand-writing  of  a 
Idr.  Dunree,  who  is  dead. 

Mr.  Peckham,  How  do  you  know  that  he 
is  dead  ? — A.  I  attended  his  funeral. 

Mr.  Feckham.  We  object  to  the  reading  of 
these  copies,  or  to  the  reading  of  the  origi- 
zials,  till  such  time  as  it  is  proved  that  they 
camp  from  the  hands  of  M.  dela  Motte. 

Mr,  Attorney  General.  The  ground  upon 
which  we  offer  to  read  these  letters,  is,  tnat 
X>e  la  Motte  and  Waltrond  appear  from  tlie 
evidence  to  be  carryinjg  on  the  same  business^ 
and  that  sometimes  the  packet  is  brought  by 
one,  soinetimes  by  the  other;  he  is  paid  by 
one,  or  he  is  paid  by  the  other,  indifferently ; 
and  Katdifie  says,  De  la  Motte  told  him  that 
tbe  two  or  three  first  packets  went  in  proper 
time.  Roger  would  not  distinguish  which 
{acketc^  he  received  from  Waltrond,  or  which 


A.  D.  1781.  i;75i 

he  "received  from  De  la  Motte;  but  he  rc« 
ceived  from  both,  and  was  paid  by  both  for 
his  trouble ;  and  also  for  the  money  he  paid 
Ratcliffe,  the  20/.  a  trip,  to  carry  these  packets 
to  Boulogne.  Ratclitte  proves  that  he  said 
the  two  or  three  first  went  in  good  time ;  but 
complained  of  a  delay  latterly,  and  that,  un- 
less he  carried  them  with  more  expeditioii^ 
they  would  be  of  no  use,  because  the  same  in- 
telhzence  got  there  sooner;  and  that  he  should 
give  him  100/.  in  tlie  January  following,  as  a 
reward,  over  and  above  the  20/.  a  trip.  It  i» 
upon  this  eround  we  now  offer  to  the  court  the 
copies  of  these  letters. 

Mr.  Dunning.  No.  3,  being  an  extract,  that 
certainly  cannot  be  read,  if  a  copy  may :  there- 
fore  the  question  arises  upon  No.  '^  and  it  is 
very  clear,  that  there  is  no  proof  from  any  ona 
witness,  that  he  affects  even  to  believe,  much 
less  will  say,  that  No<  3  was  ever  received 
from  the  prisoner,  or  that  it  was  ever  com- 
municated to  him,  or  that  he  knows  any  thW 
more  of  the  matter  than  I  do.  Your  lordship 
is  told,  Waltrond  and  the  prisoner  carried  on 
the  same  trade.  The  trade,  if  it  is  to  be  call- 
ed a  trade  that  they  carried  on,  is,  I  suppose, 
in  these  pictures,  Birmingham  goods,  toys^ 
&^c.  If  there  is  any  connection  between  them, 
it  is  undoubtedly  of  that  sort..  A  partnership 
in  treason,  is  a  new  species  of  trade  to  be  car-, 
ried  on,  that  what  one  man  does,  should  It  b^ 
high  treason,  the  other  shall  be  answerable 
for;  though  it  does  not  appear  he  kaows  any 
thing  of  tne  matter.  This  is  independent  of 
the  general  objection,  that  these  copies  ought 
not  to  be  received  at  all,  even  if  they  were  ao- 
thenticated ;  the  paper  in  question  wants  that 
authentication.  It  was  said  De  la  Motte  is 
proved,  in  conversation  with  RatcUffe,  to  have 
spoken  of  some  of  the  earher  packets  hav- 
ing  gone  in  time,  and  some  of  the  latter 
having  been  delayed.  What  these  earliA 
packets  were,  wt  have  not  a  tittle  of  evidence 
about.  The  learned  gentleman,  in  his  open-^ 
ing,  said  this  correspondence  had  gone  on  for 
sometime,  and  that  Mr.  Ratclifte, supposed 
to  be  struck  with  a  qualm  of  conscience,  of 
which  Ratcliffe  gave  no  evidence,  applied  to , 
Mr.  Stewart. 

That  the  letter  now  in  question,  was  not  ^ 
part  of  what  v^s  first  sent,  is  clear. .  That  it  is 
not  among  those  which  were  last  and  latterly 
sent,  is  equally  clear.  It  seems  to  me  to  stand 
about  midway,  as  far  as  we  can  judge,  from 
the  evidence  oi  those  packets  which  llatcliffe 
received,  and  which  he  disposed  of  in  the 
manner  your  lordships  have  neard.  There  b 
another  way  of  proving  these  were  not  among 
the  letters  that  were  the  subject  of  that  con- 
versation; for  in  that  conversation,  De  la 
Motte  complained  of  the  delay  which  render- 
ed the  latter  packets  useless.  This  does  not 
apply  to  this  packet ;  for  it  underwent,  by  the 
intervention  mentioned,  a  delay  of  two  dbiys  ; 
therefore,  as  far  as  one  can  iudge  from  the 
evidence,  this  packet  is  excluded ;  however,  it 
is  enough  for  me^  that  the  evad^cei2oes  nm 


73B] 


31  GEORGE  m. 


Trial  oft.  H.  De  la  MMtt 


[736 


apply  to  prove  this  to  be  a  packet  received  by 
me  witness  from  M.  De  la  Motte. 

The  ground  upon  which  it  is  attempted  to 
be  sustained,  is,  tliat,  although  it  be  not  the 
original,  yet,  being  a  copy,  it  is  to  be  received ; 
because  a  copy,  say  the  gentlemen,  under  the 
circumstances  of  this  case,  is  as  good  as  Uie 
original ;  and  for  the  purpose  of  sustaining 
that  argument,  they  assume  that  this  is  an 
authenticated  copy;  which  we  denv.  Sir 
Stanyer  Porten  says,  that  a  letter  of  this  date 
he  copied;  but  where  did  that  letter  come 
irom?  It  came  from  Stewart  Stewart  told 
the  court,  that  what  letters  he  gave  sir  Stan- 
yer  Porten,  he  received  from  Ratcliffe,  in  this 
mstance,  with  his  own  hands.  Roger  speaks 
of  a  letter,  which  he  two  days  before  received 
from  Waltrondy  of  which  letter  De  la  Motte 
knew  nothing ;  of  which  letter  he  was  the 
possessor  dunng  these  two  days ;  but  that  at 
the  time  when  De  la  Motte  was  sending  by 
RatcUfie  two  boxes,  one  containing  prints,  and 
nothing  but  prints,  the  other  containing  the 
model  of  a  gun,  and  nothing  but  the  model  of 
a  gun,  he  says  he  put  into  the  hands  of  Rat- 
clute  a  packet,  which  he,  Roger,  had  received 
two  days  before  from  Waltrond ;  so  that  the 
receipt  of  a  jingle  packet  from  De  la  Motte  is 
absolutely  excUided,  if  Roger  speaks  truth : 
but  ^our  lordships  will  not,  in  deciding  this 
question,  decide  which  of  the  witnesses  speak 
truths  which  is  undoubtedly  the  province  of 
the  juiy.  Taking  every  tittle  Ratcliffe  has 
Slid  to  be  coirectTy  true,  the  upshot  he  has 
said  b,  he  either  received  this  packet  from 
De  la  Motte,  or  Waltrond,  he  cannot  say 
which.  If  your  lordships  shall  think,  that  an 
authenticated  copy,  uiiaer  the  circumstances 
of  the  case,  is  competent  to  be  admitted  in 
evidence,  a  link  of  the  chain  is  wanting ;  and 
therefore  upon  that  sound,  I  trust  your  lord- 
ships will  r^ect  this  letter,  No.  2. 

Mr.  Feckham.  1  will  suppose,  for  a  mo- 
ment, that  the  paper  produced  is  not  a  copy, 
but  the  original.  Under  these  circuqastances, 
can  that  original  be  given  in  evidence,  to  af- 
fect M.  De  la  Motte  ?  It  turns  upon  a  very 
plain  and  simple  (;[uestion :  ean  a  letter  be 
given  in  evidence  against  the  prisoner,  which 
has  not  been  proved  to  have  been  in  his  pos- 
session, or  of  his  haod-^vriting?  What  is  the 
evid^nc^  that  has  been  given  to  prove  that 
thi9  wa3  ever  in  the  possession  of  De  la 
Mplte?  Sir  Stanyer  Porten  savs,  tliat  the 
copy  h^  now  produces  (I  will  ca(l  it  the  ori- 
eipal)  was  received  bv  him  from  Stewart, 
w,  Stewart  swears  that  he  received  that 
id0nti<c»i  letter  from  Ratcliffe :  but  here  the 
chain  is  broken ;  for  Ratcliffe  says,  that  he 
eithar  received  it  from  Roger,  or  from  Wal- 
trondy  i^^hicli  of  theipa  he  cannot  tell ;  but  he 
positively  says  he  did  not  receive  it  from  Do 
b  Motte.  Is  Waltrond  here,  to  ssy  that  the 
letter  be  ^ve  Ratcliffe  was  the  letter  he  re- 
ceived from  De  la  Motte?  No.  Mr.  Roger 
is  here :  taajhe  sajid  that  tlie  letter  he  g^ve 
■^  '  *"   waa  receivefl  firom  De  la  Motte? 


No ;  precisely  the  contrary.  Roger  swears 
that  he  never  gave  any  letter  to  Ratcliffe^ 
which  he  had  received  from  De  la  Motte : 
Ratclifie  says  he  never  saw  De  la  Motte  but 
once,  which  was  at  Roger's;  and  at  tiiat 
time,  by  Uie  evidence  of  Ratclific  himself,  a^ 
well  as  by  the  evidence  of  Roger,  De  la  Motte 
had  not  the  letter  in  his  possession :  instead 
of  evidence  that  De  la  Motte  gave  this  letter 
to  Ratcliffe,  there  is  the  evidence  of  Ratclifl^ 
that  he  did  not ;  which  is  confirmed  by  the 
testimony  of  Roger.  I  am  ready  to  aflcnow-' 
ledge  that  RatcUffe  in^uated,  that  R<^er 
went  up  stairs  for  the  letter,  by  order  of  m^ 
De  la  Motte ;  but  that  very  witness  has  posf-- 
tivelv  sworn  (and  he  is  stamped  with  credit 
by  the  high  authoritv  which  has  called  him') 
that  the  &tter  which  he  gave  to  Ratcliffe,. 
he  had  received  two  days  before  from  Wal- 
trond. 

I  conceive  that  the  first  thin^  to  be  dis' 
posed  of  b.  Whether,  taking  this  as  the  ori- 
ginal, it  could  be  given  in  evidence  against 
M.  De  la  Motte,  when  there  is  evidence  bo^ 
fore  the  Court,  that  the  letter  did  not  come 
from  him,  but  from  another?  When  your 
lordships  shall  be  of  opinion,  that  the  original 
could  be  given  in  evidence,  it  will  be  time 
enough  for  me  to  object  to  the  production  of 
the  copy;  as  the  original  has  confessedly- 
been  in  the  hands  of  government,  and  is  not 
destroyed. 

Mr.  Attorney  General.  Mr.  Peckham  sayi^ 
that  Mr.  Ratcliffe  is  contradicted  by  Mr.  Ro- 
ger in  the  circumstance  of  De  la  Motte'a 
ordering  the  packet  to  be  brought  dowil. 
Your  lordships  will  recollect,  that  is  the  very 
last  packet  Ratcliffe  took,  which  was  in  the 
month  of  December ;  it  is  totally  a  difierent 
time.  Oar  producing  Roger  is  not,  as  the 
Court  sees,  because  he  is  a  witness  of  high 
credit,  but  to  connect  the  business  with  them. 
It  is  with  the  jurjr  entirely  what  credit  they 
will  give  to  the  witnesses  that  are  produced  ; 
and  so  will  be  the  letter,  when  it  is  received  ; 
but  in  my  opinion,  the  ground  upon  which  It 
is  to  be  received  is  with  the  jury  still,  and 
they  must  decide  that  point.  Mr.  RatdliTe 
has  repeatedly  sworn,  he  never  received  any 
from  De  la  M6tte,  (but  that  is  not  the  quea- 
tion  here)  all  he  received  were  from  Roger, 
Then  who  did  Roger  receive  them  from  ?  lie 
says,  I  received  sometimes  the  packets  froih 
Waltrond,  and  sometimes  from  the  prisoner ; 
he  added  farther,  that  he  received  pav  from 
both  of  them.  This  certainly  is  evidence; 
not  of  a  partnership  in  trade,  as  it  is  called, 
but,  in  the  language  of  the  law,  of  a  coii5p)« 
racy  between  tAese  people  to  giveintell^ence 
to  the  French :  and  whether  one  delivered 
the  packet  to  Ro^r,  or  the  other,  appears  tio 
be  quite  immatenal:  each  of  them  gave 
Rog^r  the  money  to  pay  to  Ratcliffe ;  and 
that  he  has  been  paid  himself  the  wages  in- 
differently by  both  of  them.  Then  is  not 
this  a  fact  for  tlie  jury  to  determine,  whether 
these  two  men  were  not  canying  on  the  sam« 


J 


7*7]  >of  High  TretUon. 

<x>uifeinc;ftogfNb^r^  in  giving  intelligence  to 
tlvimoeb?  fU)dthi|witn«9t9peiLk6o/tbeni 
in  that  light ;  that  it  owMfe*  w  aiffermce  wbe* 
ibar  ha  reaaited  it  from  one  or  the  glhar.  It 
is  upon  that  grouncl  that  wa  dehale  the'  quae* 
tioo  before  your  lQrd«lup9>  as  to  th^  copy.  If 
the  question  as  to  the  copy  is  determined 
aipinst  us,  than  I  mean  to  submit  ta  your 
lordships,  whether  the  contents,  from  the 
memoiy  of  the  person  who  read  tM  originals^ 
IS  not  to  be  admitted  in  evidence. 

Cnui.  It  seems  as  if  the  prisoner  and 
WaUrond  were  in  a  con^ira^jr  together  (and 
that  b  a  &ct  for  the  consideration  of  the  jury) 
lo  send  intelligence  to  the  Fvench ;  but  the 
intelligence  which  was  sent  must  bis  laid  b»- 
fofi  the  Court  by  legal  evidence.  The  ques- 
tion now  for  us  to  give  our  opinicms  upon,  is. 
Whether  the  copies  which  are  produced, 
marked  No,  s  and  a,  are  evidence  admissible 
in  this  case?  With  respect  to  these  two  iatr 
ters,  they  are  proved '  to  have  been  delivered 
by  Batdiffe  to  Dtewart,  and  by  Stewart  to  sir 
Stanyer  Porten,  and  copied  by  him.  But  the 
chasm  b  between  the  delivery  of  the  letter 
from  the  priscmer,  or  from  Waltrond  (if  the 
£u:twcfie  so)  to  Ratcliffs;  for,  as  the  case 
stands  now,  there  b  no  evidence  to  shew  how 
these  two  letters,  which  were  brought  to  the 
secretary  of  state's  office  in  July,  came  to 
the  hands  of  Ratcliffe ;  and,  unless  there  be 
some  evidence  to  prove  that  these  two  letters^ 
which  af^rwards  came  into  the  hands  of  sir' 
Stanyer  Porten,  and  by  him  were  copied, 
'Were  delivered  to  Ratcliffe  by  the  prisoner,  or 
bv  Waltrond,  or  some  pcxson  sent  or  em- 
ployed by  them,  in  my  opinion,  they  ought 
not  to  be  received.  The  case  upon  the  evi- 
dence b  clear,  as  to  the  condition  of  the 
papers,  and  what  beoune  of  them  from  the 
time  they  got  into  the  hands  of  Ratcliffe. 
He  certainly  did  not  mention  any  Dcurticular 
time  when  be  first  began  to  receive  letters  or 
packets  from  Roger ;  nor  does  he  say  that  he 
delivered  anvj)ai>ers  whatever  that  were  re* 
eeived  from  nun  in  the  month  of  July.  The 
copies  can  be  evidence  only  in  one  of  two 
ways ;  namely,  tluit  from  a  date  prior  to  the 
time  these  letters  gpi  into  the  hands  of 
Stewar^  BaAcli£fe  delivered  all  the  packets 
generally  to  Stewart  which  he  received  from 
Itoger,  and  no  others ;  or  by  saying  pointed- 
ljr>  that  he  received  from  Hoser  this  packet 
4ated  in  the  month  of  July,  vmich  he  afler- 
wards  delivered  to  Stewart.  Neither  of  these 
things  are  proved ;  and  unless  one  of  them 
were  provra,  I  think  it  impossible  to  receive 
these  copies  in  evidence.* 
—  ■  -  •  ■    •  ■ — , — 

*  In  Bart'f  Pi«M  of  ib«  Crown,  cbap.  S,  n,  58,  il 
is  md,  "  la  the  oue  of  De  U  MOU0,  O.  B.  July, 
1781  f  on  iiupicloo  of  tho  trmitoroas  oarrespondenoo 
wkbk  be  wu  carryiaa  on  with  the  French  gorern- 
sent,  then  tt  war  with  thi«  cooalry,  the  packets 
were  eec;i«lly  opened,  copies  taken  of  their  conleote, 
mai  they  we#e  aAerwarda  aeilcd  again  and  Ibrwarded 
-So  their  f^aoe  of  deitiattioii.  Pcfiginf  who  knew  the 
ftiao&er*a  handwriting  proved  thil  the  erigM  la^ 

VOL.  XXt 


Charle$  Jelhus  swortf. 

* 

Bxamined  by  Mr.  H^w^k. 


[73a 


Did  you  apprdiend  the  prisoner  De  la 
Motte?— I  was  one  of  thp  persons  who  did 
apprehend  him. 

Where  did  you  apprehend  him?— Atone 
Mr.  Otley's,  in  Bond-street,  on  the  5th  of  last 
Jamianr;  it  misht  be  between  the  houra'of 
six  and  caght  in  ue  evening. 

How  long  had  you  been  waiting  for  him  f 
— ^We  went  in  the  momingi  on  the  4th,  be- 
tween the  hours  of  ten  and  eleven.  We 
waited  all  that  time.  His  own  servant  was 
^ith  us. 

He  had  not  been  at  home  the  preceding 
night?— No;  he  did  not  oome  home  aiS 
nieht. 

Describe  the  manner  in  which  you  appre« 
bended  him,  and  the  circumstances  attending 
it.— Between  the  hours  of  seven  and  cigh^ 
o'clock  there  was  a  double  rap  at  the  door  2 
the  servant  said.  *^  I  believe  tnat  is  my  mas^ 
ter :.  I  will  go  oown  stairs."  I  sai^  ''  No ; 
do  not  go  down  by  yourself.*'  Mr.  Prothero 
weilt  down  along  with  him.  He  opened  the 
door,  and  let  his  master,  M.  De  la  Motte,  in* 
When  his  master  came  as  ^  as  the  stairs, 
the  servant  said  something  to  him,  but  what 
I  cant  tell :  immediately  ne  turned  upon  his 
heel,  and  went  as  if  he  was  gobg  td  get  out 
agaio. 

Did  the  servant  speak  to  him  in  French  or 
English  ?— I  cannot  tell.  Mr.  Prothero  laid 
hold  of  him  immediately,  and  told  him  hci' 
should  go  up  stairs.  Prothero  desired  I  would 
assist  him :  I  likewise  got  hold  of  him ;  and 
while  we  were  together,  M.  De  la  Motte 
threw  aome  papers  out  of  his  waistcoat  pocket 
upon  the  stau-s.  I  picked  them  up,  and  after* 
wards  delivered  Uiem  to  Mr.  Chamberiayne. 
We  brought  him  up  stairs.  I  wanted  to 
search  his  pockets.  He  would  not  let  us. 
Prothero  laid  hold  of  him  by  the  collar,  and 
kicked  up  his  he^ls ;  and  while  he  had  him 
down,  I  searched  his  pockets.  I  found  somo 
other  uapers  in  his  pockets,  which  I  also  de^ 
liverea  to  Mr.  Chamberlayne. 

All  the  papers  you  found  you  delivered  to 
Mr.  Chamoerlayne? — ^Tes;  I  did. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Dunning, 

Bank-notes  and  all  ?^No ;  there  was  a  10/. 
bank-note,  and  he  had  it  back  again. 

He  threw  out  a  bank-note  ?— He  did. 

And  you  gave  it  him? — ^Yes. 

That  was  veiy  good.  I  hope  you  will  al« 
ways  copy  that  example. — ^I  hope  I  shall. 

How  many  papers  were  there  that  you  did 
not  give  back? — ^I  beUeva  there  might  be 
seven  1  he  tore  one  to  pieces. 

ten  were  written  by  him,  and  the  eopiet  htanjg 
proved  to  have  been  ezaihined  were  admitted  in  evi- 
dence ^  aad  the  anthority  eitsd  te  this  amntmiar 
tioniM  MM.  QvM,  A 
SB 


739]  21  GE0B6E  IIL 

Did  Tou  read  theniy  and  know  what  thejr 
were  aoout? — I  believed  could  tell  the  parti- 
culars: there  was  something  about  a  ship 
called  the  Egnumt.  One  he  tore  to  pieces : 
but  it  was  of  no  use;  there  was  nothing 
upon  it. 

William  Chamberlayne,  esq.  sworn. 

Mr.  Chamberlayne,  These  papers  (producing 
then))  I  received  from  Jellous:  they  have 
been  in  my  custody  ever  since. 

F4PERS   (produced  by  Jellous)  which  were 

read  in  court 

N*  I. 
At  SpUhead. 

Diligente— Guard-shipy  at  present  ordered 
to  receive  Dutch  prisoners. 

Britannia,  Victory,  Pnnce  Geor^,  Ocean, 
Queen— Completing  provision  for  six  months^ 
and  will  be  rc»dy  for  sea  in  ten  days. 

Duke— In  fourteen  days. 

Formidable — Under  no  order  at  present. 

Alexander,  Cumberland,  Defence — ^Provi- 
sion  for  six  months,  and  fit  for  sea  in  ten 
days. 

Dublin — Under  orders  for  Plymouth, 
•rortiiude.    Nonesuch  —  Completing    six 
months  provision,  ready  in  eight  days. 

Inflexible — Under  oraers  for  the  Downs. 

Monmouth — One  of  coipmodore  Johnston's 
squadron,  eight  months  provision. 
'  St.  Alban's — Completing  six  months  provi- 
■sion,  ready  in  seven  days. 

Buffak) — Ordered  to  the  Downs.        ^ 

Jupiter,  Jason — Commodore  Johnston's 
squadron,  eight  months  provision. 

Flora,  Monsieur,  Emerald,  Alarm— Under 
no  particular  orders,  ready  for  sea. 

Active— To  go  with  commodore  Johnston, 
eight  months  provision. 

Oiseau — Wants  a  new  main-mast,  ready  in 
eizht  days. 

Mercury — ^To  go  with  commodore  John- 
ston, eight  months  provision. 

Solebay — Fitted  for  foreign  service. 

Vestal— Fitted  for  Channel  service. 

Pegasus — Fitted  for  foreign  service,  ready 
for  sea. 

Ranger— Wants  a  mast,  and  returned  from 
-sir  Samuel  Hood's  squadron. 

Shark — Conunodore  Johnston's  squadron, 
eight  months  provision. 

Alert-^Just  arrived  iirom  Jamaica^  last  from 
Ireland. 

Infernal,  Lark,  Romney  —  Commodore 
Johnston's  squadron,  eight  months  provision. 

Satisfaction — ^Arrived  from  Ireland. 

Lightning,  Haniy,  Firebrand— Under  no 
particukir  orders,  but  supposed  will  go  with 
the  Gibraltar  fleet. 

In  Forttmauth  Harbour, 

Union -— Completing  provision  for  six 
monthsy  fit  for  sea  in  twelve  days. 


Trial^F.  H.  De la  Matte, 


[740 


Magnificent — ^R^ady  foe  dock. 

Elizabeth — ^Addoff;  ship's  company  turn- 
over to  the  Monmouth. 

Raisonnable — Paid  off;  ship's  company 
turned  over  to  the  Repulse. 

Repulse,  64 — Will  be  ready  in  fourteen 
days. 

Lion — Ready  in  fourteen  days,  completing 
provisions  for  six  months. 

La  Fortune,  44— Ready  for  dock. 

La  Nymphe,  44 — ^Is  to  go  with  commodore 
Johnston,  if  she  can  be  sot  ready  in  tiine. 

Diana— Commodore  Johnston,  ready  in  four 
days. 

Fox — Fitted  for  Channel  service;  is  to  con- 
voy the  trade  to  Ireland. 

Warspight,  Dragon — Fitted  to  receive  new 
raised  men  brought  firom  diflerent  parts,  but 
has  no  recruits. 

Lioness,  Mars — ^Hospital,  shins  to  receive 
recovered  men  from  the  hospitals. 

Courageux,  Valiant — On  a  cruize. 

Marlborough,  Beliona — In  the  Downs. 

Foudroyant,  Bienfaisant — ^At  Plymouth. ' 

Canada,  Edgar,  Warwick — On  a  cruize. 

Princess  Amelia,  Yarmouth,  Berwick,  Sul- 
tan, Blenheim,  Conqueipr,  Hero,  Kent,  Arro- 
gant, Royal  George,  Namur,  Prince  of  Wales. 

I  don't. see  in  my  li3t  the  Princess  Amelia — 

my  firiend  must  have  overlooked  her. 

» 

N»  n. 

Thunderer,  Stirling  Castle,  Scarborough — 
Missing,  and  given  over  for  lost,  as  there  has 
not  been  the  least  heard  of  them. 

Phoenix,  Motor,  Barbadoes— The  vessels 
lost,  with  every  thing  but  the  men,  and  70  of 
them  afe  missing. 

Ramillies,  Southampton,  Pallas,  Pelican, 
Jamaica,  Tobago — Cruizing  to  windward  of 
Jamaica,  all  well. 

Albion,  Diamond,  Janus,  Porcupine— These 
ships  are  fit  for  sea,  at  Jamaica. 
*    The  Princess  Royal   was  along-side  the 
wharf  at  Jamaica,  in  order  to  be  cleaned. 

Gibraltar, 

The  fleet  destined  for  Gibraltar,  it  is  said,  is 
to  consist  of  18  sail  of  the  line,  and  to  take 
six  months  provision,  and  to  be  got  ready 
with  all  posMble  expedition :  what  me  rest  of 
the  ships  are,  and  when  they  will  sail,  is  al 
present  unknown. 

Commodore  Johnston* t  Squairon, 

Romney,  Monmouth,  JufHter,  Jason,  Diana, 
Active,  Mercury.  Shark  sloop.  Lark  cutter. 
Infernal — Victualled  for  eicht  months;  are 
to  take  two  regiments,  namely,  Humberston's 
and  Fullarton's  regiments,  consisting  of  1,000 
men  each  re^ment ;  and  to  take  a  number 
of  artillery :  but  when  they  sail,  and  on  what 
service,  is  a  profound  %ecr«t  Commodore. 
Johnston  has  been  bulX  ht.U  London,  where 
he  is  at  prvsent 


741] 


for  High  Trecuoft4 


Wliat  ships  are  going  vriA  sir  Hiwh  PalE- 
ser  is  not  known,  but  hear  he  is  to  hoist  his 
Dfiig  on  board  the  Hero,  which  is  expected  here 
from  Plymouth  every  hour. 

The.Foudroyant  and  Bi'enfaisant,  atPly- 
niouth;  the  Canada,  Edgar,  and  Warwick, 
are  still  on  their  cruize ;  the  Canada  was  seen 
in  distress ;  the  Minerva,  in  the  Downs,  to 
convoy  the  bishop  of  Osnabrugh  to  Germany^ 
'  The  Aiert  has  brought  the  under-mentioned 
authentic  account  from  Jamaica. 

Ruby,  Graflon  —  All  their  quarter-deck 
guns  thrown  overboard. 

Hector — ^All  her  guns  thrown  overboard 
except  two. 

Trident— None,  or  little  damaged. 

Bristol-7-All  her  quarter-deck  guns  thrown 
overboard. 

E^ont — All  dismasted,  and  received  other 
considerable  damages. 

Endymion,  Ulysses,  Pomona,  Resource, 
Hinchinbrook,  Leostofi^  Endeavour,  Badger — 
Have  received  no  damages  but  what  may  be 
repaired  in  fourteen  days  time ;  but  were,  as 
Ihey  were,  unfit  to  go  to  sea. 

N*»IV. 

Sir;  Your  favour  of  the  2d  instant,  I  received 
yesterday,  and  make  no  doubt  of  the  bill  on 
Mr.  Bnirker  being  duly  honoured.  I  take  the 
liberty  of  inclosing  a  finink  for  me.  I  am,  Sir, 
your  very  humble  servant, 

Henry  Luttekloh. 

Wickham,  June  4, 1780. 

Mr.  John  Theed,  jun.  Philpot-lane,  City, 
London. 

In  the  above  was  inclosed  a  frank, 
Capt.  Lutterloh,  Wickham,  Hants.      ^ 
Free,  H.  Scott 

.  N*V. 

Dear  Madam :  You  will  much  obliee  me  to 
send  me  a  few  of  the  undermentioned  ^dress) 
franks.  I  recommended  another  gentleman 
to  you,  hope  you  find  him  a  good  customer : 
if  you  should  change  your  habitation,  beg  you 
will  let  me  know  your  abode ;  whatever  1 
pay  owe  you  for  franks,  be  so  good  as  to  put 
it  into  my  cousin's  bill,  who  will  pay  you. 
Gretham  pegs  to  be  remembered ;  andf  I  am, 
with  wishing  you  the  compliments  of  the  sea- 
son, dear  madam,  your  very  humble  servant, 

Henry  Lutterloh. 

Wickham,  Jan.  4, 1781. 

Direction  for  the  iranks, 
Mr.  John  Theed,  jun.  Philpot-laoe,  London. 

P.  S.  Pray  what  is  the  best  sealing-wax  per 
pound? 

Mrs.  Wall,  Little  Carrmgton-street,     * 
May-fair. 

'  (There  was  another  paper,  wfakh  was  only 
a  bill  for  entertumo^nt  at  the  Bush-inn,  Fara- 
bam.) 


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21  OEOBiGE  IIL 


ffF.H.D9taMaUe, 


[7M 


Mr.  Peekkam,  I  see  the  naine  of  Mrs.  Wall 

in  this  paper  [No.  6] :  is  she  here? 
Mr.  Chamberiagfne.  She  is  not  here« 
Mr.  Feckham,  Who  is  she?— jI.  I  really  do 
not  know.  I  only  know,  that  I  have  had  a 
letter  put  into  my  hands,  which  they  lold  me 
was  wrote  hr  Mrs.  Wall.  She  said  she  had 
been  at  the  Tower^  and  was  afiaid  she  should 
be  subpcBoaed  against  M.  De  la  Motte,  and 
she  determined  to  keep  out  of  the  way. 

Mr.  Dunning,  The  simple  question  was^ 
What  is  this  woman  ?  where  does  she  live  r 
does  she  sell  newspapers? — A.  All  that  I 
know  about  her  is,  sne  keeps  a  little  pam- 

ghlet  shop ;  and  I  sent  ailer  ner,  in  order  to 
ave  her  subpoenaed  ;  and  with  great  diffi- 
culty, my  messenger  told  me  he  1^  subpoe- 
naed her 

Mr .  Dunning.  One  is  a  letter  addressed  to 
Mrs.  Wall :  it  is  natural  for  us  to  desire  to 
know  who  she  is. — A,  I  must  give  you  hear- 
say evidence  if  I  say-any  thing  aoout  her. 

Mr.  Dunning.  If  you  say  you  know  no- 
thing of  her,  that  is  an  answer. — A.  I  know 
nothmgof  her. 

"  Mr.  Feckham,    But  only  that  she  keeps  a 
pamphlet  shop  ? — A,  I  don't  know  that. 

Matthew  Slater  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Homorth. 

Bid  you,  in  consequence  of  any  direction 
given  you,  go  down  to  the  house  of  one  Mr. 
Lutterloh,  at  Wickham  in  Hampshire? — ^Yes ; 
with  a  warrant  from  my  lord  Hillsborough. 

On  what  day  did  you  go  ?'-On  Uie  5th  of 
Janiuvy^ 

Did  you  then  apprehend  Lutterloh  ? — ^I  did. 

Did  you  go,  at  any  other  time,  down  to 
Wickham  to  search  for  papers  ? — Yes. 

When  was  that? — On  the  16th  of  Januaiy. 

Did  you  find  any  papers? — ^Yes. 

Where  were  they  ?— They  were  biiried  in 
Mr.  Lutterloh's  garden. 

What  did  you  do  with  those  papers?-^! 
brought  them  to  sir  Stanyer  Porten,  at  lord 
HiUsDoroueh's  office,  and  delivered  them  to 
Mr,  Chamoerlayne. 

Cipss-eiamined  by  Mr.  Dnnning. 

You  did  not  know  what  the  papers  were, 
nor  how  many  there  were  of  them  ?-^I  do  not 
know  th^  contents  of  any  of  them. 

Mr.  Peckhgm.  Did  you  yourself  take  up 
the  bundle?— il,  I  took  them  up  from  the 
garden. 

Who  dug  thsf  c;round  up  ? — I  did ;  I  had  a 
direction  from  Mr.  Lutterloh  where  Ihey  were, 
aod  I  went  and  dug  them  up, 

Henty  Lutterbh  swoni. 

Examined  by  Mr.  Attom^  Gener^, 

Do  you  know  M.  De  la  Motte  ? — ^Yes,  I  do. 
How  long  have  you  known  him  ? — ^Ever 
aince  the  year  1778. 
Have  you  had  any  comtection  with  him?-^ 


Inw]iiilivm7?«-^TDpfaoii8iBldigaioe  le- 
gprdingthe  fleet. 

Where  did  you  reside  then  ?--FirBt  at  Portt- 
mouth,  afterwards  at  Wickham^ 

Where  did  M.  De  la  Motte  reside  at  that 
time?— la  London. 

Do  you  know  where  his  lodginn  were 
then  ?— In  Wardour-slroeL  by  Princcrs-streei, 

Did  he  cfaanjp  his  lodsings  duriitt  your 
acquaintanoe  with  him?— Yes»  he  did;  ,  he 
went  to  Hampstead. 

Where  did  ne  go  to  lodge  in  London  in  the 
winter  ?-— To  N""  1,  Old  Buriington-etreet 

Did  he  lodgeatany  other  place?— In  Bnod- 
street 

Whom  did  hf  kidge  with  there?— A  Mr. 
Otlev. 

What  was  the  piurpose  of  your  getting  this 
intelligence  for  him  ?  Did  be  comasiyiicate 
the  purpose  to  you  ?— He  told  me  it  was  for 
the  ministry  of  France. 

Did  you  make  any  terms  with  him?— Yea^ 
I  did. 

What  were  your  terms  ? — At  the  be^miiiig 
of  our  acquaintance,  he  paid  me  eight  guineas 
a  month,  and  my  salary  soon  came  to  fifty 
guineas  a  month,  besidea  many  valuable  pre- 
sents. 

Did  you  occasionally  come  vp  to  towB  to 
him  from  Wickham  ?— Very  olm. 

Did  you  bring  or  send  your  intelligttic* 
about  the  fleets  ?— rif  there  was  any  thing  ex* 
traordinar^,  I  came  post  to  town. 

Otherwise,  how  did  you  send  your  intelli- 
gence  ? — ^By  the  pest,  or  the  ddigence. 

How  long  were  you  in  this.emplovmenl?— 
From  the  year  1778  till  I  was  apprenended. 

Were  ^ou  in  the  regular  course  of  trans* 
mitting  mtelligence  from  Portsmouth  ?*^Yea^ 
I  was. 

What  kind  of  intelligence  did  yiM  send 
him  ? — Every  thixu;  concerning  the  fleet,  and 
what  intelligence  I  was  able  to  prooire. 

Before  you  were  apprehended,  wa^  M.  D# 
la  Motte  itt  your  house?— Yes^  he  was. 

(Some  of  the  Papers  found  iip<m  M.  De  te 
Motte  shewn  the  PnaoDer.) 

LuHerloh,  No.  1,  is  my  hand^writmg;  No, 
QyOS  my  hand-writing  too ;  No.  d  is  out  of  tho 
Admiralty-office. 

Where  ?— At  Portsmouth. 

Who  procured  it  ?— A  person  in  the  office. 

Whom  did  you  deliver  them  to?— Into  his 
own  hands! 

Is  that  your  dhection  to  Bir.  Theed?— Uis, 

Whom  did  you  ^e  that  letter  to  ?— M.  De 
la  Motie,  with  a  request  to  send  it  to  mjr 
banker  to  send  me  some  cash. 

Were  any  pa])ers  concealed  in  or  near  tout 
house  at  the  time  you  were  apprehended  ?— 
In  my  garden. 

Should  you  kainw  them  again  if  I  ihcw 
them  to  you  ? — ^Yes. 

Court.  Look  at  the  latter  end  of  that:  it  ia 
written  in  a  difierent  way  fipom  the  rest  of  your 
bsod-writing.*-«It  )s» 


743] 


^  High  Treaumi 


JL  D.  ITftl. 


(746 


Is  it  Doldiflcrant  ink  ?— Ye^;  but  tht  whole 
paper  is  niy  writing;  it  was  wiitten  as  we 
were  sitting  talking  toeetber.  ^ 

Attorney  Gtturml,  xou  liad,  at  the  time 
you  were  apprehended,  papers  concealed  in 
jour  garden:  do  you  mean  under  gmunii?^-' 
A.  Yes. 

Did  ^ou  direct  any  person,  after  your  ap- 
prehennoBy  where  to  find  them  P-*!  directed  a 
king^s  messenger. 

X^k  at  these  (shewing  the  witness  the 
papers).'»Thi8  is  the  prisoner's  writing:  it 
was  one  of  the  concealed  papers :  it  is  marked 
No.  r.  There  is  another  of  De  la  Motte's 
band*writing:  it  is  No,  8. 

Was  that  one  of  the  concealed  papers  ?*-I 
am  not  dear  whether  it  was  or  not;  but  if  it 
was  found  there,  I  certainly  put  it  there.  No. 
n  is  De  la  Motte's  hand-wnting ;  so  is  No. 
10:  No.  II  is  De  la  Motte's  band-writing; 
No.  13  the  same  :  No.  15,  No.  14,  No.  15, 
and  No.  16,  are  De  la  Motte's  writing. 

What  is  this  paper?  (No.  7.)— My  instruc- 
tions, which  I  received  from  M.  De  la  Motte 
himself;  it  is  instructions  that  I  should  ]m>» 
cure  two  boats,  and  if  there  was  any  thing 
▼ery  material,  to  send  my  intelligence  by 
these  two  boats ;  one  to  tfest,  and  the  other 
to  Cadiz  in  Spain. 

Does  this  relate  to  commodore  Johnstone's 
squadron  ? — ^Yes,  it  does  so. 

What  is  No.  8?^That  was  a  letter  which  I 
was  to  send  with  them  to  Brest 

But  it  is  all  blank,  you  see. — ^1  was  to  fill  it 
tip  with  pro|>er  names :  the  paper  b  De  la 
Motte's  writing.  No.  9  was  to  the  conunan* 
dant  at  Ouessant,  which  is  a  sea  port  town  in 
France:  if  my  cutters  were  not  able  from  the 
wind  to  get  into  Brest,  ^y  were  to  go  to 
Ouessant. 

Were  you  to  inclose  the  intelligence  you 
sent  in  taat  cover } — ^Yes. 

What  are  those  two  seals?— They  are  M. 
De  la  Motte's  own  seals  i  he  sealed  them  in 
my  presence ;  his  seal  was  known  in  France. 
No.  JO  is  »  direction  to  the  commandant  at 
Cadiz  in  Spain ;  there  is  a  direction  to  go  to 
the  French  ambassador's  at  lisbon.  No.  11 
is  a  letter  diracted  to  the  commandant  at 
Brest,  which  I  was  to  send  in  mv  inckwure, 
and  toe  governor  was  to  ^ve  for  tnis  a  recei|K 
to  my  cutter.  No.  IS  is  likewise  the  pn* 
aoncr'shand^writing;  it  was  either  to  be  given 
%D  the  commandant  in  Brest,  as  the  cutter 
oould  get  in,  or  at  Ouessant.  No.  18  is  to 
the  same  purpose.  No.  14  for  the  same  pur- 
pose. No.  15  was  for  the  minister  of  the 
marine,  the  admiral^,  in  Paris.  No.  16  is 
the  same  as  tbe  others,  except  No.  15.  No. 
%7  is  M.  De  la  Motte's  writmg ;  it  is  a  nole 
Sot  t%tl.  for  the  buuness  i  transacted,  which 
I  have  been  speaking  of.  M.  De  la  Motte 
has  paid  it  to  my  banker  under  the  name  of 
Apt.  Toomey.  Tbic  No.  18  is  M.  De  ia 
Motte's  haa^^writing;  it  is  a  letter  I  leceived 
frombrai. 

Tkaivas  something  about  coals  in  it  •  B»ve 


you  any  coal  trade  between  you?— None  at 
all;  that  was  fictitious. 

As  vou  have  no  coal  trade^  it  must  relate  to 
something.  What  did  you  mean  bv  it?— I 
don't  recollect  now;  I  linow  we  had  no  coal 
trade  betvreen  us. 

Solicitor  OtMnd,  Nor  did  itmeanconls^ 
•^It  did  not. 

There  is  SO/,  or  something,  mentioned  ia 
it  ? — No ;  35i.  he  sent  me. 

What  for  ?— Those  services.  No.  10  is  M. 
De  la  Motte's  hand^writing.  No.  90  is  also 
M.  De  la  Motte's  writing. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.'  Dunning. 

Mr.  Dunmng.  Does  it  happen  to  be  known 
to  vou  that  at  Portsmouth  and  Plymouth, 
and,  I  believe,  at  every  other  sea-port,  there 
are  stationed  coUeetors  of  news  for  the  Lon* 
don  newspapers,  who  transmit  their  intelli- 
gence every  wedc,  or  post  ? — A,  No,  it  is  not 
very  particularly ;  I  know  that  there  are  peo* 
pie  that  do  such  things. 

There  are  people  in  the  employ  of  the  news- 
writers  who  collect  intelligence  of  what  is 
passing  at  the  several  sea-pOTts,  and  send  the 
news  to  London  ?— <I  can  only  answer  that  by 
hearsay,  I  know  of  no  such  people. 

Have  you  never  been  one  yourself? 

Lutterlok.    A  news-paper ! 

Mr.  Dunninf,  No«  not  a  news-paper,  but 
a  man  who  writes  sucn  stuff  as  we  see  eveiy 
day  in  the  news-papers  ? — ^No.  , 

Am  I  to  understand  that  thoee  that  yon  say 
are  M.  De  la  Motte's  hand-wnting  were  writ- 
ten by  him  in  your  presence  ? — No. 

Whidi  were  written  in  yotv  presence  ?7-* 
The  direction  to  Cadiz,  the  nranks,  &c. 

Now  cuU  out  those  that  you  will  swear 
were  written  by  him  in  your  presence,  and  as 
to  the  other  you  speak  fnmi  the  knowledjge 
you  have  of  his  hand-writing  from  seeing  him 
write  that  ? — ^I  am  most  certain;  most  sure. 

Your  being  most  certain,  and  most  sure^ 
will  not  make  any  body  else,  I  believe,  most 
certain  or  most  sure ;  otit  choose  them  out, 
and  inform  the  Court  of  the  grounds  of  your 
belief.— No.  11  was  wrote  in  my  presence; 
that  is  a  letter  to  the  commandant  at  Brest« 

Does  it  say  at  Brest  ?— No ;  **  Mons.  Com^ 
mandant."  All  these  covers,  18, 13, 14, 15, 
and  15,  were  written  in  my  presence. 

Are  those,  then,  aU  that  were  written  in 
your  presence? — ^Yes;  and  the  instructions. 
No.  7,  were  written  in  my  presence.  I  do 
not  positively  remember  whether  No.  8  was 
wrote  in  my  presence. 

Are  we  got  now  to  the  end  of  those  that 
were  written  in  your  presence  ?-*-No.  0  is  a 
direction,  and  was  written  in  my  presence ; 
and  so  was  No.  IQ,  and  there  is  a  letter  to  the 
ffovernor  of  Brest,  No.  11,  directed  <'To 
^ons.  Commandant;"  and  there  is  a  letter 
inside. 

'  Attorney  General.  Where  were  those  writ- 
ten that  were  written  in  your  presence?— X 
At  my  house. 


747] 


21  GEORGE  in. 


Tfial  off.  H.De  la  Mottey 


[748 


Mr.  Dufifitn^.  Then  all  that  were  writteo 
in  your  presence  were  directions? — A,  A  tel- 
ler to  the  commandant  of  Brest. 

Court.  And  No.  15^  which  is  a  letter  to 
the  Admiralty. 

Mr.Dtfnniitg.  Can  you  either  read  of 
write  French  ?— -4.  Very  imperfectly. 

Then  your  recollection  is  not  at  all  assisted 
as  to  what  you  saw  written  in  your  presence, 
hy  the  contents  of  the  papers? — Yes,  I  know 
the  contents,  what  the  papers  mean. 

You  know  I  am  now  distinguishing  what 
was  written  in  your  presence,  and  wlSit  you 
suppose  to  be  M.  De  la  Motte's  from  the  ^ 
neral  knowledge  of  his  writing  ? — He  explam- 
ed  them  very  properly  to  me  m  English. 

He  put  these  papers  into  your  own  hands, 
and  translate  them  into  English  ? — He  ex- 
plained them  in  English  to  me. 

Where  and  when  r — First  at  his  house  in 
Bond-street.  He  wrote  these  large  instruc- 
tions, and  ^ve  them  to  me  when  he  came 
down  to  Wickham,  at  my  house. 

The  covers  were  written  in  Bond-street? 
— ^Yes;  the  instructions  and  two  or  three 
small  covers  were  wrote  at  my  house  at 
Wiekham.  , 

Where  was  the  letter  to  the  commandant 
written  ? — ^In  Bond-street. 

Then  all  that  was  written  at  Wickham 
was  the  instructions  and  some  small  franks? 
^Yes. 

The  large  franks  and  the  letter  having  been 
written  in  jBond-street  ?— Yes. 

•  How  long  ago  might  it  b^  that  this  first 
writing  was  in  Bond-street? — I  cannot  be 
exact:  but,  I  presume,  in  last  November. 

And  when  at  Wickham?— The  day  before 
M.  De  la  Motte  was  apprehended. 
.   That  was  in  Januaiy  ?— Yes. 

Then  the  first  time  you  saw  him  write,  if 
I  understand  it,  was  in  Bond-street,  in  the 
month  of  November;  and  the  last  time  was 
in  January,  at  Wicldiam? — I  am  not  clear 
whether  it  was  in  November,  or  the  month 
before. 

But  whether  it  was  in  November  or  Octo- 
ber, that  was  the  first  ? — ^Yes. 

Only  that  we  may  understand  one  another 
correctly,  and  may  not  suppose  by  and  by 
that  we  are  mistaken ;  ^ou  say  the  first  time 
you  saw  him  write  was  in  Bond-street  in  No- 
vember, and  the  last  time  was  in  January  'at 
Wickham  ? — ^That  is  what  I  mean. 

Then  the  occasion  of  so  much  verbal  in^ 
Btruction  took  its  rise  firom  an  opinion  in  M. 
De  la  Motte  tnat  you  could  not  read  the 
written  instructions  ?^ — Certainly. 

•  How  happened  it  then  that  these  important 
instructions,  which  were  drawnr  up  as  an  in- 
ttrument,  and  called  '  Instructions  for  your 
conduct,'  were  lefl  with  you  in  a  language 
which  you  did  not  understand? — Because  my 
fnend  understood  it. 

Did  nobo^  that  you  conversed  with  upon 
this  subject  understand  English? — ^I  only 
conversed  with  M.  De  la  Motte. 


It  never  was  imparted  by  yon  to  anv  body 
whatever.  What  ne  intrusted  you  with,  mud 
you  for  doing,  and  what  you  w^ne  to  do,  all  re- 
mained a  secret,  and  never  was  imparted  by 
you  to  any  third  person  whatever  r — ^There 
was  a  particular  agreement  between  Us  not 
tq  betray  one  another  in  case  we  were  appre- 
hended. 

So,  in  consequence  of  this,  you  kept  true 
faith  wi|h  M.  De  la  Motte,  and  never  con- 
versed about  this  mth  any  creature  whatever? 
— ^Not  by  M.  De  la  Motte's  order,  but  by  my 
own  inclination. 

You  kept  it  an  inviolable 'secret  in  your 
own  bosom  ? — I  do  not  keep  it  a  secret  m- 
my  own  bosom. 

To  whom  did  you  impart  it?— Sir  Hugh 
Palliser. 

A  very  proper  confident !  Why4id  not  you 
tell  me  this  before  ? — ^I  never  menticmed  De 
laMotte's  name  to  dr  Hugh  Palliser,  only 
the  subject 

You  imparted  to  him  the  whole  of  the  sub- 
ject, without  namiuj^  tHe  man.  Do  you  coiv- 
ceive  that  to  be  perrectly  consistent  with  hav- 
ing given  me  aeain  and  again  for  answer,  that 
it  was  an  inviouble  secret  between  you  two^ 
and  no  third  man  to  be  acouainted  with  it  ? — 
I  said  so,  only  to  sir  Hugh  Palliser. 

When  did  you  impart  this  to  sir  Hu^  Pal- 
liser  ?— Afler  I  had  setUed  the  plan  with  the 
ministiy  of  France.  I  went  to  Paris;  the 
ministry  of  France  wished  to  take  commodore 
Johnston's  sguadron;'!  laid  them  the  plan 
how  to  take  it;  they  agreed  in  every  respect. 
I  asked  S,000  guineas  for  a  friend  of  mine, 
who  would  procure  me  all  necessary  uitelli- 

§ence,  as  likewise  the  tiiird  part  of  evenr  ship 
iiat  should  be  taken ;  that  was  done  b^  M. 
De  la  Motte's  desire.  The  French  ministiy 
would  not  agree  to  a  third  part;  they  agreed 
to  give  me  3,000/.  and  2,000/.  a  year  to  my 
friend,  which  I  said  I  had  in  the  Admiralty. 

Who  was  this  fiiend  in  the  Admiralty ;  not 
sir  Hugh  Pdliser,  I  hope  ? — ^It  ^i^as  an  imagi- 
nary fhend :  it  was  a  plan  of  my  own  making. 
You  are  a  dextrous  band  at  inaking  phins,  I 
perceive.  Then  you  made  a  plan,  and  in- 
vented a  lord  of  the  Admiralty,  and  went  to 
the  French  ministry  ?  Be  so  good  as  tell  me 
which  of  the  French  mmistershad  the  honour 
of  your  conversation  ? — I  came  to  M.  de  la 
Motte,  and  told  him.  He  had  veiy'of^ea 
pressed  me  much,  to  know  if  there  was  no 
possibility  of  getting  at  the  private  ugnals, 
and  taking  the  fleet.  I  told  him  I  thou^t 
there  was  a  possibility  of  taking  the  fleet,  and 
he  seemed  extremely  pleased :  he  gave  me  a 
letter  to  the  prime  secretary  to  the  ministry 
at  France,  that  what  I  should  say  were  facts. 
I  delivered  my  letter  to  the  secretary  to  the 
French  ministry,  who  seemed  likewise  pleas- 
ed, but  did  not  wish  to  give  me  a  third  fmrt  of 
every  vessel.  I  returned  to  England,  and  M. 
De  la  Motte  went  instanUy  to  raris,  and  set- 
tled a  plan,  that  they  should  give  3,000/.  and 
tiiat  an  eighth  part  of  every  ship  should  bo 

t 


749] 


jSn*  High  Tnaton. 


A.D.  1781. 


[T50 


parted  between  De  la  Motte,  me,  and  my 
friends:  after  this,  De  la  Motte  had  these 
franks.  I  had  at  this  time  made  a  substantial 
fortune,  and  regretted  that  I  was  employed  in 
such  a  business  as  I  was.  In  consequence  of 
that,  I  went  to  sir  Hugh  Palliser,  and  told 
him  of  the  whole  transaction ;  and  made  him 
a  plan,  that  instead  of  the  French  taking  the 
Engtish  fleet,  the  English  should  take  the 
French  fleet 

See  if  I  understand  you :  you  first  settled  a 
plan  with  De  la  Motte,  by  which  commodore 
Johnstone  and  his  fleet  were  to  be  taken; 
and,  when  they  were  taken,  they  were  to  be 
divided  between  you,  De  la  Motte.  and  your 
friend  ? — Not  divided ;  only  an  eighth  part  of 
it  divided. 

Then  you  were  to  have  -  an  eighth  part  for 
yourself,  for  M.  de  la  Motte,  and  for  your 
iiriend  f  Be  so  good  as  tell  me  who  this  friend 
was.  You  said,  this  moment,  it  was  an  ima- 
ginary thing  ?— -So  it  is. 

Then  the  meaning,  is,  you  are  to  settle  a 
plan  with  M.  de  la  Motte,  and  cheat  him  of  a 
partition  of  the  plunder  you  were  to  have,  for 
your  imaginary  friend  ?  Was  it  but  one  imagi- 
nary Mend  you  had  ? — Only  one  that  I  em- 
ployed in  that  bu»ness. 

•  How  many  iraagipary  friends  were  there 
to  have  shared  in  the  plunder? — Only  we 
three. 

That  makes  five  of  you;  you,  M.  de  la 
Motte,  and  three  imaeinary  fnends. — If  you 
can  make  five  out  of  tnree,  I  cannot.  I  wish- 
ed to  give  up  the  business  in  which  I  was  em- 
ployed *.  I  wished  likewise  to  render  myself 
serviceable  to  Endand. 

So  you  entered  into  this  conspiracy  origi- 
nally, did  you,  with  a  view  to  make  yourself 
serviceable  to  England? — No,  not  with  that 
view,  but  because  I  was  in  necessity. 

*  So  you  entered  into  this  conspiracy  with  a 
view  to  destroy  England  ? — Ana  ennch  my- 
self. 

But  by  hurting  England? —Certainly ;  how 
could  I  do  otherwise. 

I  want  England  to  know  her  benefactors. 
You  entered  into  this  conspiracy  with  a  view 
to  destroy  England,  and  ennch  yourself.  Hav- 
ing enriched  yourself,  be  so  good  as  tell  us 
what  was  the  plan  yoti  and  sir  Ilugh  Palliser 
.had  concerted  to  serve  England  ? — I  went  to 
sir  Hugh  Palliser,  and  told  him  I  had  perfectly 
-aettled  a  plan  with  the  ministry  of  France. 

Tell -me  when  you  went  to  sir  Hugh? — I 
.suppose  in  the  month  of  November. 

I  thought  you  told  roe  August  just  now. — 
No ;  I  bdieve  it  was  in  November.:  it  was  in 
Aueist  I  .went  to  France.  I  went  to  sir  Hugh 
Faluser^  and  told  him  the  ministry  of  France 
•intemlea  to  take  the  fleet;  that  I  had  made  a 
plan  how  and  in  what  manner  thev  might 
'.take  it,  and  th^Trhad  perfect  confidence  in 
"what  I  said.  I  then  made  sir  Hugh  Palliser 
a  plan  how  it  w&s  possible^  in  case  tKe  French 
took  this  English  fleet,  that  the  ^ngli^ 
should  taka  the  Freudi  fleet.    I  begged  Qf  sir 


Hugh,  at  the  same  time,  that  he  would  not 
ask  me  the  name  ^  of  my  partner,  M.  de  la 
Motte,  because  I  did  not  come  to  inform 
against  a  person  wiUi  whom  I  lived  on  friend- 
ly terms;  I  only  requested  that  my  name 
might  be  kept  a  secret,  and  my  friend  not 
hurt. 

Which  of  the  fleets  of  France  was  it  that 
was  to  be  destroyed  by  this  coxyunction  be- 
tween you  and  sir  Hugh  Palliser  ?— Sir  Hugh 
Palliser  was  to  go  to  the  minister,  and  inform 
him  of  my  plan ;  which  he  has  done. 

Then  you,  sir  Hugh  Palliser,  and  the  minis* 
trv,  are  all  together.  I  only  want  to  icnow 
wluit  it  was  you  were  to  do  for  the  annoyance 
of  France.  I  understand  that  a  recollection 
of  your  opulence,  and  a  little  qualm  of  con- 
science, carried  you  to  sir  Hugh  Palliser, 
for  the  sake  of  turning  the  tables.upon  the 
French ;  and,  instead  otdoing  them  a  service, 
you  meant  to  do  them  a  miscnief  ? — Yes.    , 

W  hat  was  the  mischief  you  intended  them  ? 
—To  take  the  fleet  of  France. 

What!  all  of  them?->No,  the  fleet  that 
was  to  come  out  to  take  governor  JohivitQde 
were  to  be  taken,  by  sencling  out  more  men 
of  war  in  a  secret  manner. 

I  hope  it  was  done  ? — It  was  not,  I  wish  it 
had;  tnere  happened  to  be  a  mistake;  I  went 
out  of  town,  ana  sir  Stanyer  Porten  was  sent 
by  lord  Hillsborough  to  converse  with  me 
upon  this  subject. 

When  so  many  wise  heads  got  toother,  I 
wonder  how  this  scheme  failed ! — ^It  you  had 
been  there,  it  might  have  been  better  perhaps. 

I  am  afraid  we  shall  make  it  a  little  worse, 
before  we  have  done. — ^I  am  very  willing  to 
answer  your  questions. 

You  certaiiuy  shall ;  so  don't  make  that  a 
matter  of  compliment  Do  you  recollect 
going  to  present  the  bill  to  the  grand  jury 
against  M.  De  la  Motte  ? — I  do. 

Do  you  .remember  what  you  said  to  any 
person  when  you  came  out  from  the  grand 
jury  upon  the  subject  of  M.  De  la  Motte  ? — I 
don't  recollect. 

Mr.  Attorney  General.  If  Roger  is  present, 
let  him  go  out  of  court. 

(R(^r  is  sent  out  of  court.) 

Mr.  Dunnin£,  Do  you'  recollect  saying 
any  thing  at  all  to  any  body  about  M.  De  la 
Motte  ? — I  may  have  done  so.  I  do  not  re- 
collect it  perfectly. 

Now  I  will  see  if  I  can  help  your  recollec- 
tion. Did  not  you  tell  someoody*  that  ^'  M. 
De  la  Motte  was  a  man  of  fortune,  and  vpu 
would  have  a  slice  of  it  before  it  should  be 
over  ?" — I  did  not  say  any  such  thing. 

Did  not  you  say, "  the  grand  jury  have  not 
sufficient  proof  before  them ;  but  I  will  fur- 
nish them  with  enough  to  find  the  bill.  This 
man  is  rich,  and  I  must  make,  an  advantage 
of  it :  and  it  will  be  a  fine  tiling  for  me  ?^'-rI 
never  said  such  a  thiii^  in  nw  Ine. 

You  said  no  part  of  it  ?:— I  have  said,  that . 
M.  De  la  Motte. is  a  man  of  fortune;  I  have, 
{uentioned  that  to  the  ministers. . 


751] 


il  GEOEOE  IIL 


TndafF.H.D€laMoiie, 


[75f 


That  wu  not  with  a  Tiew  to  iiii^  then  to 
«  share  of  the  phinder.  I  hope?-— No. 

But  did  you  say  this  to  aa^  person  jrou 
ihoudit  might  he  temUed  to  join  with  you 
in  it?  did  you  say  it  to  JBLoger?-^He  knew  lie 
was  a  man  of  fortune  as  well  as  me. 

What  was  the  reason  of  telling  it  to  him 
then  ? — ^When  people  dine  together,  they  are 
eapable  to  spealc :  I  believe  F  may  have  told 
him  he  was  a  man  of  fortune. 

Did  you  tell'him  the  nand  iuiy  had  not 
sufficient  evidence  to  find  me  bill  ?---Just  the 
contrary. 

What  do  you  mean  by  just  the  contrary  ? — 
I  told  him  I  was  clear  that  M.  De  la  Motte 
was  guilty  of  high  treason. 

Now  do  vou  understand  that  this  is  just  the 
contrary  of  the  words  that  I  have  read  toyou, 
the  grand  jury  not  having^  sufficient  evidence 
before  themf  Do  you  thmk  the  contrary  of 
that  isy  I  know  M.  De  la  Motte  is  guilty  of 
high  treason  ?  Did  you  say  any  thing  about 
the  gruid  jury  ^— I  do  not  recollect  that  I 
ayd  a  single  word  about  it. 

Did  you  say  any  thine  about  finding  tiie 
bin?-— i  did ;  that  I  womd  lay  a  wager  they 
would  find  ihe  bill.  Soger  said  he  thouglit 
#kegr  would  tiot 

Did  you  ever  say  that  th^  had  not  evidence 
enough  to  find  the  bill  without  you  ?**Nev)er 
in  my  life. 

Did  you  ever  aay  you  'woM  fimush  them 
with  evidence  enough  to  iind  the  bUlf — 
Never  in  my  life. 

Did  ftm  never  ny,  this  man  is  ridi,  and  I 
must  make  an  advantage  of  it?— -Never  in  my 
life. 

Did  you,  ever  say,  it  will  be  a^ne  thing  lor 
me?-«Never. 

Did  you  say  to  Roeer,  that  you  should  make 
profit  or  advantage  or  M.  De  la  Motte  by  this 
prosecution?— fiy  no  means  whatever. 

While  you  were  poor,  you  grew  rich  by 
joining  De  la  Motte  in  seheines  of  assitting 
Fnmce  against  England :  whoa  you  got  rich, 
you  intemled  to  grow  still  richer  by  assisting 
eoglaad  in  schemes  against  France.  Now 
vou  are  sufficiently  rich  you  purpose  to  go 
lack  Aun^  I  hope,  to  your  own  country,  if 
the  juetioeofthis  country  will  let  you.  How 
do  you  live  now  ? — ^Upon  mjr  fortune. 

And  this  is  a  fortune  aoquii>ed  by  the  means 
you  mention  ? — By  the  hands  <^  De  U  Motte 
and  the  minifltry  of  France. 

M.  De  la  Motte  and  the  minislry  of  France 
have  made  you  a  rich  man  ?'— They  have* 

What  country  had  the  honour  of  producing 
you  ?— <}ermany. 

What  part? — ^Brunswick. 

How  long  have  you  honoured  Rngland  with 
your  residence  ?— several  years. 

How  many ?«-I  cannot  be  positive:  may 
be  15  or  le. 

Where  did  you  live  when  you  first  came  to 
Bngknd?  because,  as  we  have  had  M.  De  la 
Matte's  hisiorjry  let  us  have  a  little  of  yeurs, 
^  was  aa  oftcer  last  war  io  Oennany. 


1 


I  am  asking  yni  where  yea  have  livedo  and 
what  you  have  been  in  £ngland?— •!  came 
over  faeie  to  see  an  uncle  of  mine,  in  the  cha- 
racter of  an  ambassador  here.  There  is  Mr. 
Chamberlayne,  who  can  witness  it 

I  believe  not.  Don't  be  quite  so  firequent 
in  your  appeals  to  Mr.  C^wnberlayne ;  roTy  I 
take  it,  he  would  attest  the  contrary.  Whai 
became  of  you'? — I  was  sent  to  Wmchester, 
to  learn  Enelish,  to  one  Mr.  Taylor,  whom  I 
believe  yni  know  perfectly  well. 

I  have  not  the  honour  to  know  Mr.  Tay- 
lor; but,  whoever  he  mieht  be,  you  went 
there  to  learn  English.  What  did  you  do 
after  that  ? — ^I  married  his  daughter. 

How  long  since  ?-*-Fifieenvears  ago,  soon 
after  I  came  to  England ;  and  by  doing  so,  f 
disobliged  all  my  relations,  who  woidd  know 
nothing  of  me,  by  marrying  a  woman  with^ 
out  fortune  and  family.  Then  I  came  to 
town« 

Where  did  vou  live  then  ?— I  spent  what 
little  money  I  had,  and  then  went  to  an  office 
by  Charing^ross.  I  applied  for  a  place  to  a 
sentleman,  one  captain  PhiUips,  I  lived  witia 
him  I  cannot  tell  how  long,  I  suppose  a 
twelveaionth.    He  had  an  ill  state  of  nealth. 

He  is  dead,  I  take  for  granted  ? — ^He  thea 
sent  me,  with  a  great  character,  to  Mr.  Wild- 
maik  in  linooba's-inn-^elds,  with  whom  I 
Uvea  about  a  twelvemonth. 

Did  Mr.  Wildman  send  you  awi^  with  a 
gpeat  character? — He  was  more  like  a  friend 
to  me  than  a  master.  He  said  one  momin^, 
^  I  want  a  Uvery-servant :  I  suppose  that  will 
not  suit  you.''  I  said,  ''  I  cannot  think  of 
wearing  a  livery.''  Then  he  said,  '^  I  should 
be  f^adif  you  would  get  another  ^aee."  I 
left  Mr.  Wildman,  and  then  lodged  m  Castle, 
street,  Leicester^ds.  Mr.  Wildman  told 
me  he  was  very  ready  to  render  me  any  ser- 
ykt.  After  I  had  left  Mr.  Wildman  two 
months,  he  lent  me  iSL  upon  my  note,  to  set 
myself  up  in  some  business :  and  my  fiuther  , 
assisted  me  likevrise  with  some  money.  I 
took  a  small  shop  in  Castle-stree^  Leicester- 
fieklS|  and  there  I  lived  a  year,  tdi  my  unde 
saw  I  absolutely  would  Uve ;  then  he  took 
me  into  his  hands ;  and  he  keeping  a  car* 
riage,  &c.  he  made  me  sign  and  accept  a 
great  many  bills ;  which  I  vecy  readily  did. 

What  snop  in  Castle^treet,  Leicesler-fielda^ 
did  you  keep  ? — I  sold  tea  and  sugar. 

A  chandler's  shop? — ^No,  not  a  tallow- 
chandler's. 

Mr.  Dunning.  No,  these  are  different  soft 
of  men. 

LntUrhh,  My  uncle  being  very  extrava- 
gant,  he  lost  a  great  deal  of  money.  I  found 
mvself  much  encumbered  by  those  people 
whose  biUs  I  had  accepted :  I  was  obliged  to 
go  out  of  the  kingdom,  for  fear  of  oeiM 
arrested.  I  went  to  Germany,  lecruiluig  Iv 
government.    I  then  returned  to  Knglaaid. 

When  may  this  return  to  En^and  hava 
been,  after  your  breaking  in  the  chandler's 
shop?— 1  did  not  hceak  in  my  chandkrH 


TWJ 


foir  H^[i  Tr0asmh 


A.U  178U 


[754 


jboo;  it  was  oa  aoeountof  those  billsmy 
.tUBcle  made  me  accept. 

'  About  what  time  did  yeu  come  agaia  to 
England  ?t-I  cannot  be  positive  to  the  time.. 
.  Do  those  things  millu  no-  impression  upon 
yottr  memoiy?  When  ^ou  hre«dc,  and  run 
away)  to  avoid  your  crediiojra,  and  then  come 
and  &ce  them  agfun ;  cannot  that  be  recol- 
lected ?— In  1775  I  came  over : .  my  friends 
nersuaded  me  to  go  to  the  Kin^'s-bench,  and 
he  cleared  by  an  act ;  the  only  way.  of  getting 
rid  of  debts  I  had  not  contracted. 

When  that  operation  was  nerfbrmed,  and 
jpou  were  a  dear  man,  what  oecame  of  you  I 
wen  ? — ^I  went  into  Germany,  and  recrmted 
for  the  prince  of  Orange }  by  which  I  gained 
%  psetty  little  sum.  I  then  returned  to  Eng- 
land. My  uncle  by  that  time  was  gone  to 
America.  I  came  to  Enghmd  with  intention 
of  going  to  America  likewise.  I  fell  ill,  and 
continued  so  for  twdve  months,  which  re- 
duced me  to  great  inconvenience.  After  I 
was  better,  I  went  to  Porlamouth,  just  at  the 
time  when  the  king  was  there.  I  applied 
to  one  Mr.  Fielding,  who  kept  the  George, 
the  principal  inn  at  Portsmoutn,  and  told  him 
I  was  in  want  of  emplov  till  the  fleet  sailed 
for  America.  He  asKed,  if  I  had  any  body 
could  give  nie  a  character?  I  told  hin^  Yes ; 
a  very  respectable  tradesman  in  the  town. 
He  then  made  me  book-keeper;  to  receive 
his  moneys  keep  his  books,  and  write  out  his 
bills,  dunng  the  time  the  king  was  there. 

Do  me  the  fovour  to  tell  me  what  ¥nu  to 
cany  you  to  America? — I  intended  to  enter 
kito  the  service. 

What  service  ?«-*The  service  of  government 
here. 

Then  you  ent««d  into  it  at  home,  and  was 
aent  to  America  at  government's  -eapence,  I 
lM>pe  ? — No :  a  man  that  speaks  different  bu^ 
^uages,  perhaps,  is  more  valuable  than  a 
mere  caroineer. 

Then  government  would  be  glad  to  send 
sUch  a  man? — They  would  luive  ofl&cers 
enough :  they  dont  wish  to  send  officers. 

You  meant,  theiL  to  go  there,  and  see  what 
yon  could  make  oi  your  fortone?-^That  was 
what  I  intended  to  do. 

Do  you  recollect  proposing  any  prefect 
about  going  to  America,  or  domg  any  thing 
in  America  to  any  body  ?— -I  don't  know ;  I 
don't  recollect. 

Do  ycNx  know  a  Mr.  Rappel  ?— rVer^  weH. 

Do  )rou  recollect  any  thing  passing  be* 
tweoi  him  and  you  abput  going  to  America  ? 
—No. 

Perhaps  the  name  of  the  margrave  of  An- 
apach  may  bring  it  to  your  recollection? — 

Periiaps  the  name  of  Dr.  Franklih  inay  ?-p- 
No. 

You  recollect  nothing  about  buying  arms 
to  be  sent  to  America  ? — ^Yes,  I  do  recollect 
that 

Be  so  good  as  to  explain  that  ?— It  was  an 
imaginary  plan. 

VOL.  XXL 


So  that,  besides  imaginary  friends,  when 
they  af e  wanted,  you  have  now  and  then  an 
imaginary  plan.  Be  so  good  as  stete  this 
imaginary  plan,  that  one  may  see  whether  it 
is  better  imagined  than  the  other  was.— I  do 
not  recollect  it;  your  witness  perluqw  can 
toil  it. 

But  do  you  anticipate  him ;  inform  us  what 
that  plan  was  that  you  bestowed  the  epithet 
of  *  imaginary'  upon.  Why  do  you  cau  it  an 
imaginary  planl-^Becauas  there  never  was 
any  reality  m  it. 

'  In  what?--^ln  procuring  arms. 

What  wafUhe  plan  Which  you  call  imagi- 
nary?—I  dcm*t  recollect  the  whole  subject 
now,  nor  that  we  talked  about  arms. 

About  whatarma?^— I  said  there  were  se- 
veral officers  at  Hamburgh  that  sent  all  kinds 
of  effects  to  Ameri^  and  got  a  areat  deal  of 
money;  and  that%  great  de^  of  money 
might  be  got  by  buying  arUks  and  sending  to 
America. 

To  the  Americans  ? — ^Yes. 

What  farther  passed  about  it  ?  Upon  your 
oath,  what  was  it  that  was  to  be  done  upon 
the  subject  of  those  arms,  and  of  tiiia  conveiw 
satioo  ?-^Nqthinff  at  all. 

Thev  were  to  be  sent  for  nothing.  Where 
were  they  to  be  sent  ?— No  where ;  I  had  no 
arms. 

But  vou  were  to  buy  arms  at  Hamburgh  ? 
— ^I  said,  a  great  deal  of  money  might  be  got 
by  buyins  up  ^me  old  arms. 

And  wnole  armies  too,  and  a  prince-  at  the 
head  of  them.  But  why  did  you  say  all  this 
to  Mr.  Rappel  ? — One  is  very  apt  to  speak ; 
one  must  speak  something. 

When  people  must  sp^  something,  they 
generally  speak  what  means  somethmg,  or 
means  nothmg.^-Nothing  at  all. 

So  all  this  unagiuary  scheme  turns  out,  in* 
stead  of  being  an  imaginary  scheme,  to  be 
nothing.  Nothiog  was  ever  proposed  be- 
tween you,  by  the  one  to  the  other,  about 
conveving  arms  to  America  ? — No,  not  that 
I  recollect. 

You  will  not  be  sure,  will  you  ? — I  cannot 
be  sure. 

We  had  a  little  conversation  about  the 
manner  in  which  you  parted  with  Mr.  Wild- 
man  ?— Yes. 

Mr.  WUdman  was  so  much  your  fiiand^ 
that  he  lent  you  money  ?-^Yes. 

Did  yofk  carry  from  him  as  good  a  dia- 
meter as  you  brought  with  you  to  him  ? — t  did. 

And  he  gave  you  a  character? — I  did  not 
want  a  character ;  for  Ivras  going  to  keep  a 
shop.  He  told  me  he  would  give  me  a  cha^ 
racter. 

Did  he  always  continue  to  hold  the  same 
language  to  you  ? — ^He  did  not. 

Did  you  ever  apply  to  him  fbr  a  character. 
and  he  refused  it? — ^He  did,  after  I  was  cleared 
by  the  act ;  it  was  a  great  while  afler. 

Why  ? — He  had  heard  I  had  accepted  many 
bills,  and  was  cleared  by  the  act ;  that  must 
have  given  him  a  bad^^pmion  of  me. 

3C 


755] 


21  GEOROE  III. 


Trial  ofF.  H.  De  la.  Motte, 


[756 


Was  that  the  grounds  of  his  rdlusal  ? — It 
was. 

Do  me  the  ftvour  to  recollect,  whether, 
at  the  time  of  your  parting  from  Mr.  Wild- 
man,  he  had  not  his  bureau  broke  open,  and 
robbed  of  80  or  90/.  ? — ^I  remember  it  per- 
fectly well ;  it  was  at  his  chambers  in  Lin- 
coln's-inn. 

But  this  happened  to  coincide  very  won- 
dei^Ily  at  the  tunc  of  your  departure  ? — No ; 
it  happened  several  months  berore  I  left  him. 

So  his  refusing  a  character  to  you  did  not 
originate  fron>  aqy  thing  relative  to  that  trans- 
action, but  ftcm  your  having  taken  the  be- 
nefit of  an  insolvent  act?-^iiiat  is  my  ima- 
gination. 

•    Mr.  Att   Gen,     Whose  hand-writing  is 
that  ?  (No.  «2.)-^That  is  M.  De  la  Motte's. 

There  is  some  alteration  of  figures  in  it  ? — 

X  vS. 

LidterUh,  As  the  gentleman  has  said  some- 
thing about  Mr.  Wildmaui,  and  it  is  a  delicate 
point  to  me,  T  should  be'  obliged  to  him  if  he 
would  be  so  ^ood  as  call  Mr.  Wildman  in. 

])lr.  Dunning,  I  will  undertake  to  do  you 
that  favour. 

Lutterioh,    I  shall  be  much  oblige(i  to  you. 

Mr.  Oeorge  Randall  was  sworn  to  interpret 
such  of  the  exhibits  produced,  as  were  in 
.  .  the  French  language. . 

N°VII.    [Translation.] 

"  Instructions. 

•"  When  commodore  Johnstone  shall  sail 
from  Spithead,  you  will  order' your  two  smug- 
glers-to  go  straight  to  Ushant,  or  to  Brest, 
and  to  deuver  the  letter  which  you  shall  give 
him  ;  and  on  the  receipt  of  it,  he  shall  give 
the  hour  and  the  day  that  he  shall  have  re- 
ceived it.  If  the  wind,  or  other  circum- 
stances, will  not  permit  the  said  smuggler  to 
go  straight  to  Ushant,  or  Brest,  he  will  do 
his  utmost  to  carry  the  letter  to  St.  Maloe's ; 
but  Ushant,  or  Brest,  are  the  port  which  he 
shall  endeavour  to  make,  and  not  think  of 
St.  Maloe's  but  upon  a  very  extraordinary  cir- 
cumstance. The  smuggler  who  shall  go  to 
Cadiz,  will  deliver  the  letter  to  the  comman- 
dant of  the  marine  at  Cadiz,  and  shall  take  a 
receipt,  from  the  said  commandant,  of  the 
hour  und  of  the  day  the  letter  shall  be  deli- 
vered. If  the  wind,  or  circumstances,  shall 
hinder  positively  the  said   smuggler   from 

O'to  Cadiz,  he  will  do  his  utmost  to  make 
1,  or  Lisbon.  If  th^  said  smuggler  shall 
make  Ferrol,  he  will  deliver  his  letter  to  the 
commandant  of  the  marine,  and  will  take  a 
receipt.  If  tlie  said  smuggler  shall  make 
Lisbon,,  he  will  go  and  carry  the  letter  to 
Monsieur  the  ambassador  of  France,  and  will 
take  a  receipt ;  but  it  is  to  be  observed  posi- 
tively, that  the  principal  object  is  to  go  di- 
rectly to  Cadiz,  and  that  Ferrol  and  Lisbon  are 
only  on  the  impossibility  of  going  to  Cadiz." 

N".VIII.    [Translation.] 
"Sir;  This.  day,    month, 


I  hour,  set  sail  from  St.  Helen's,  Ports- 
mouth, commodore  Johnstone,  with  t^e  M* 
lowing  vessels,  (then  there  are  eight  blanks) 
the  wind  bdng . 

*^  There  are  no  other  vessels  ordered  to 
follow  him.  I  desire  you  to  give  a  receipt 
to  the  beaivr,  of  the  hour  and  of  the  day." 

N*  XII.    «*  To  the  commandant." 

N^XIIL    The  same. 

N'XIV.  The  same. 

N*  XV.  **  To  the  mini^r  of  the  marine 
at  court,  * 

N'^XVI.  <<  To  the  commandant*' 

N«  XVII.  «  I  promise  to  pay  to  Mr.  Heniy 
Lutlerloh,  on  the  35th  day  of  the  present 
month,  the  siun  of  131/.  slerting,  for  the 
tiquidatioa  of  the  account  between  us,  at  Lou- 
don, this  i4th  of  June,  1780." 

N°  XXII. 

^*  Four  thousand  guineas,  ready  money. 

For  a  man  of  war  of  60  guns,  S,600  guin* 

For  a  man  of  war  of  64  guns,  3,000  guin. 

For  a  man  of  war  of  74  guns,  4,000  guin. 

For  a  man  of  war  of  90  guns,  4,000  guin. 

For  me  you  must  ask." 

To  LtUterlok.  What  is  the  meaning  of  itvt: 
paper  that  has  just  been  read  ? — ^When  I  had 
madeM.  De  la  Motte  a  ]^lan  for  taking  com. 
Johnstone's  fieet,  I  was  withJiim  in  his  close^ 
at  hh  house  in  Bond-street.  I  asked  him  the 
terms  I  should  ask  the  ministry  of  Ftance : 
he  told  me  4fiOQ  guineas,  ready  money,  for 
the  terms.  Every  ra4n  of  war  which  was 
taken  by  my  contrivance,  my  plan ;  for  a  50 
gun  ship  he  made  it  1,000  guineas^  which  t, 
when  1  came  to  Parts,  altered  to  s,000 ;  for 
every  64  gun  ship  that  was  taken  by  our  plan, 
3,000  guineas ;  for  eVeiy'  74  gun  ship  4,000, 
and  a  90  gun  ship  the  same ;  and  frigates  iu 
proportion. 

:  What  are  these  words  at  the  bottom,  **  For 
me  you  must  ask  ^** — I  should  ask  a  laiger 
Bom,  which  I  was  to  pay  to  M,  De  la  Motte  ; 
he  left  the  agreement  entirely  to  me. 

Was  De  la  Motte  in  France  with  you  at  the 
time? — I  was  once  with  him  in  Calais,  and 
once  with  him  in  Paris. 

Did  you  go  to  any  person  in  Paris  together  > 
— I  delivered  the  dispatches,  when.  1  came 
there,  to  M.  De  la  Motto,  ana  requested  him 
to  introduce  me  to  the  minister,  which  he  < 
did. 

.What  minister? — Monsieur  Sartine,  the 
minister  of  the  marine. 

Att.  Gen.  Now,'  my  lord,  we*ll  read  the 
letters  from  De  la  Motte  to  Lutterloh,  tai 
sh^w  theconneclbn  between  them. 

N^XVIIL 

*'  London,  lilonday  Dec.  14, 1779. 
^'  I  inclose  you  the  sum  of  35/.  which  makes 
up  the  quarter  for  your  children,  and  likewise 
the  six  guineas  you  have  advanced  for  Mr.  T. 
Garison,  and  I  remain  to  owe  you  2/.  4s. 
which  I  will  place  to  the  future  account.  In 
my  coal  traae  it  is  absolutely  necessary  I 


757] 


Jbr  High  Treason, 


should  know  horn  much  coals  are  put  into 
eaeh  ship  of  war  and  traBSport,  from  Ports* 
mouth.  Don't  los^  any  time  to  demand 
every  particular  about  this  article;  jiud  let 
me  know,^  soon  as  you  have  inform^  your- 
self,  as  it  is  a  speculation  I  may  gain  much 
profit  by.    I  hope  you  have  received  the  last 

parcel  I  sent  you  by  Mrs.  W .    I  wish 

you  all  happiness,  and  believe  me  yours, 

**  F.  Aloemany/' 

N^XIX. 

**  My  Dear  Cousin ;  I  send  you  to:morrow, 
(Monday)  by  the  sta^e,  35/.  the  sum  of  your 
account :  it  is  the  lauit  of  Jtf r.  V.  that  you 
have  not  'received  it  sooner.  I  don't  under- 
fitand  any  thing  of  this  mai^  but  will  explain 
all  to  you  when  you  come  to  a^  us,  ana  will 
give  YOU  what  I  have  asked  for  you.  Adieu, 
my  dear  cousin,  you  will  let  ue  hear  from  you 
oflben,  informing  us  of  your  health  and  that 
of  your  friends. — Your*s  a&ctionately, 
<*  May  30, 1779. '  H.  Huvther." 

N«  XX. 

"  Sir;  I  received,  very  exact,  the  letter  that 
you  have  sent,  which  has  given  me  much 
pleasure.  I  pray  you  to  observe  what  I  want 
at  present;  that  you  take  more  care  than 
ever  of  our  afiairs ;  I  have  reason  to  desire 
this  of  you;  the  situations  of  our  family  are 
more  interesting  than  ever.  I  shall  not  get 
home  till  the  next  month,  when  you  may  he 
sure  of  what  I  have  promised  you.  I  am  your 
most  obedient  servant,  A.  Kerr.'' 

**  London^  Monday  even.  Oct.  11,  1778." 

N»  XXI. 

"  Dear  Friend ;  I  have  received,  yesterday, 
in  writing,  the  confirmation  of  the  arrange-  ' 
ments  concerning  Mr.  .Busby ;  therefore  it  is 
very  necessary  at  present  to  give  me  the  proof 
of  this  inendship  m  sending  me,  without  loss 
of  time,  all  thtit  belongs  thereto,  with  r^pect 
to  the  affiiirs  of  the  family,  and  enable  me  to 
prove  to  the  lawyer  that  all  that  has  been 
proposed  is  truth ;  therefore  send  me  the 
soonest  possible  the  papers  of  your  cousin  S. 
H.  before  his  departure,  at  length,  tliat  I  can 
do  justice  to  your  manner  of  thinking  and 
acting.  Do  not  trouble  yourself  with  the 
other  farms  at  present,  onlv  with  the  one  oc- 
cupied by  Mr.  Busby.  Write  to  me  imme- 
diately, to  No.  28,  Soho,  and  consider  well 
the  importance  of  your  process,  for  the  future 
wdl-beii^  of  your  family.  If  it  is  necessary, 
do  not  neglea  to  coipe  yourself  to  see  me.«  I 
am  yours,  C.  Mullea." 

«  November  13." 

Who  is  Mr.  Busby,  mentioned  there? — 
That  was  a  fictitious  name ;  that  was  the  per- 
son, X  told  M.  De  la  Motte  and  the  minister' 
of  France,  who  would  supply  me  wit^  all  the 
private  signals,  as  likewise  the  instructions 
that  governor  Johnstone  received. 


A,  D.  17S1.  [76» 

What  was  meant  by  '  your  family'  and '  his 
family'  ?— That  means  the  fleet. 

Who  was  your  cousin  S.  H.  ? — I  believe  that 
was  sir  Samuel  liood,  who  wa3  then  about  to 
sail. 

*  Prove  to  the  lawver  that  all  that  has  been 
proposed  is  true,'  wnat  is  meant  by  that  ? — 
rrove  it  to  the  minister  of  France,  Mons.  de 
Sartine.  He  received  another  letter  from  me 
whilst  he  was  writing  this  -.  this  is  an  answer 
to  another  letter,  dated  the  14th  of  Novemr 
ber.'   [It  is  read.] 

•*  I  opened  my  letter,  having  received  this 
moment  your*s  of  vesterday,  the  ISth  instant, 
in  which  I  see  with  pleasure  that  yoli  well 
utiderstand  the  necessity  of  actions,  and  not 
of  mere  words. 

**  I  have  sent  three  times  to  the  person  for 
franks,  but  he  can  never  be  found.  I  wait 
momently  for  tlie  )>erson  that  you  write 
should  arrive ;  naturally  conclwKng  that  you 
will  send  me  all  that  is  necessary  relative  to 
the  voyage  of  my  cousin,  that  one  can  send 
him  on  Kis  wumey."    ' 

"November  14." 

What  cousin  is  tliat  ? — Sir  Samuel  Uood,  I 
presume. 
Did  you  understand  it  so  ? — I  did. 

Anthony  Todd,  esq.  sworn. 
Examined  by*Mr.  Attorney  General, 

Did  you  receive  any  directions  to  stop 
letters  under  a  particular  address  ? — ^I  did. 

What  was  the  address  ? — "  Mons.  Grolay, 
merchant,  at  No.  64,  Paris,  Ilichelieu-street." 
I  stopped  this  letter  (producing  it)  at  the  post 
office. 

Did  you  stop  any  others?— Yes,  I  did. 

What  did  you  do  with  themf—Sent  them 
to  the  secretary  of  state. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Peehhmn. 

Is  that  the  identical  letter  ? — Yes,  and  was 
received  upon  the  day  that  it  is  stamped. 

Has  it  been  in  your  possession  ever  since  ? 
— Yes,  except  a  little  time  at  Mr.  Chamber- 
layne's ;  but  I  marked  il  with  the  initials 
ot  my  name^  so  that  I  know  that  to  be  the 
letter. 

Sir  Stanyer  Porten^ 

Examined  by  Mr.  Attorney  General. 

Did  you  receive  any  letter  from  the  post- 
office,  which  had  been  stopped  ? — ^Yes. 

What. did  you  do  with  that? — I  put  the 
initials  of  my  name  upon  it,  and  Mr.  Cham- 
bcTlayne  has  it. 

There  is  no  address  upon  it  now?-^It  is 
lost. 

What  was  the  address  ?— To  Mons.  Grolay, 
Richelieu-street,  Paris,  No.  64. 

Is  that  the  identical  letter  you  received?—* 
It  is ;  here  is  my  mark  upon  it. 

(The  letters  shewn  to  Lutterloh.) 

Whose  hand-writing  is  this  ? — LutterloK 


759]  21  GEOROE  lU. 

The^  are  both  M.  De  b  HoUe's   bandr 

writing. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Pcckham. 

You  have  delivered  a  letter  without  any 
address  to  it  ? — ^There  was  a  cover  to  it. 

How  came  that  cover  to  be  lost  ? — I  really 
cannot  say. 

I  suppose  this  letter  was  sent  to  yoo,  and 
you  thought  it  of  some  Importance,  or  you 
would  not  have  kept  it  ? — ^It  was  sent  to  the 
secretary  of  state. 

You  know  nothing  then  of  what  oover  was 
to  it  ? — Yes,  I  had  tm  cover  in  my  possession. 

Uow  came  so  careful  a  man  9b  you  to  lose 
the  cover  ? — I  did  lose  iL 

What  was  the  direction  upon  that  oover  i — 
^  Monsieur,  Monsieur  Grolay,  Richelicu- 
streety  Paris,  No.  64.^ 

I  thought  you  repeated  the  direction  in 
English  ?— Yea ;  I  repeated  it  in  English. 

Then  you  was  so  obliging  as  to  .translate  it 
for  the  country  gentlemanT— I  translated  it 

I  understood  you  to  say,  upon  your  oath, 
the  direction  was  in  English :  vou  now,  upon 
your  oath,  say  it  was  in  French?—!  did  not 
say  it  was  in  Endish. 

How  happen^  it  you  lost  that  cover  ? — I 
have  lost  it,  I  don^t  know  how. 

Who  eave  you  the  letter  ? — It  was  in  a 
packet,  directed  to  the  secretary  of  state,  and 
I  opened  it. 

Who  gave  you  the  packet  ? — ^I  found  it  at 
the  secretary  of  state's  office. 

N^  XXni.     [Translation.] 

.  '*  London,  Jan.  1 1, 1780. 

^  Sir ;  since  my  last,  I  have  nothing  what- 
ever, interesting,  to  inform  you  of  at  present, 
this  being  only  to  recall  me  to  your  remem- 
brance, and  to  assure  you  of  the  attachment 
which  my  wife  and  children  do,  and  so  long  as 
they  live  will,  preserve  for  you. 

'"  With  respect  to  our  political  matters,  we 
are  in  the  same  position,  and  wadt  with  great 
impatience  for  news  from  all  parts  of  the 
world,  without  exception;  not  having  had 
any  even  from  Rodney,  nor  concerning  the 
hostilities  committed  against  the  Dutch  flag; 
having  confined  ourselves  to  ordering,  that  no 
vessels  should  be  released,  and  treating  Uie 
priacipal  officers,  and  even  the  crews,  with 
much  attention  and  gentleness^  until  the  re- 
turn of  messengers  sent  on  both  sides. 

''  As  to  our  Home  concerns,  we  are  engaged 
in  rendezvousing  at  Portsmouth  the  seven 
East  Indiamen,  which  are  to  sail  from  that 
port  between  the  36th  and  dOth  instant;  three 
of  which  are  already  gone  round  from  Graves- 
end  to  Portsmouth  completely  laden  and 
equipt,  and  the  remaining  four  are  to  sail  like- 
wise from  Gravesend  within  six  or  eight  days 
at  farthest.  We  are  also  busied  in  assembling 
the  four  regiments,  makinz  four  battalions,  ot' 
Tottenham,  St.  J^ger,  AckTand,  and  Chewton, 
consisting  of  9,^00  men,  which  are  part  of  the 
troops  newly  raised  by  the  duke  of^  Ancaster  I 


TndffF.H.DetaMaiU, 


[7» 


and  lord  Haningtoli.  Them  km  hattalioni 
are  destined  for  the  West  Indies,  and  are  ths 
last  of  the  troops  inteiided  for  that  country; 
and  when  gone,  will  complete  the  number  of 
6,871  men  destined  to.  operate  in  the  West 
Indfe8,*Georgiay  and  Africa. 

**  We  are  preparing  for  our  convoys,  which 
are  to  sail  the  beginning  of  March,  for  North 
America  and  Canada^  consisting  of  lOfiOO 
effective  men,  whereof  a  part  is  to  be  inade 
up  of  new  levies,  recruits,  and  Germans. 

**  As  our  convoy  from  Cork  b  to  sail  be- 
tween the  15th  and  18th  instant,  under  escort 
of  only  two  S8  gun  frigates ;  there  will  re^ 
main  but  the  tm  above-mentioned  to  hft  sent 
out  at  the  appointed  time.  , 

**  We  are  undcir  someanzie^  for  the  return 
of  the.  seven  East  India  Company's  ships,  as 
well  as  for  those  from  New  York,  whicn  we 
expect  for  the  latest  at  the  end  of  this  month, 
and  which  will  add  greaUy  to  the  force  in  the 
ports  of  EnglancL  at  this  moment  in 

comparison  of  that  remaining  at  Bresir  As 
we  have  no  more  than  eight  snips  at  this  fve- 
sent  time  fit  for  sailing,  the  others  being 
under  refwin  we  have  appointed  to  guard  the 
entrances  of^the  channel  (which  you  term  La 
Manche),  viz.  eastward,  or  the  German  ocean, 
a  50  gun  ship  and  four  frigates ; — ^ndwest-r 
ward,  or  the  entrance  to  the  ocean,  three 
ships  ofthehne,  whereof  one  of  96  and  two 
of  74  guns,  and  five  or  six  frigates,  besides 
severalcutters  appointed  to  watcn  as  close  as 
possible  the  bay  of  Ushant.  Such  is  our  prer 
sent  condition. 

^  The  object  of  the  association  now  kma^ 
ing  becomes  more  and  more  important,  and 
the  cause  of  unearaiess  to  administration,  be- 
cause the  heads  of  the  association  aim  at  disr 
posing  of  the  militia  and  the  new  levies  of  vo- 
limteers.  The  counties  of  York,  Cumberiand, 
Hants,  Sussex,  Surry,  and  Middlesex,  hav« 
declared  themselves,  and  the  leaders  multiply 
daily.  Wilkes  is  the  firebrand,  and  points 
out  the  means.  I  shall  acquaint  you  with 
the  sequel  of  this  a&ir,  which  we  apprehend 
may  become  of  consequence. 

''  The  association  of  the  Protestants  against 
the  Catholics  b  not  so  dangerous;  but  they 
are  a  burthen  upon  our  minds,  and  shackles 
to  our  operations."  "^ 

N^XXIV.    [Translstion.] 

^^  To  M.  Grolay,  merchant,  Richelieu-streetl 

No.  64,  Paris. 

^London,  Ist Dec.  irSO. 

**  We  have  taken  the  opportunity  of  an  iol 
surahce  to  send  you  last  Thursday  a  bale^ 
eoods  which  you  desired  of  us,  and  which^we 
hope  will  arrive  safe.  We  shall  send  off 
for  Osten(i,  next  Sunday  nioming,  a  small  box, 
directed  to  Mr.  Bouwens,  contsinine  the 
prints,  which  we  believe  we  have  cnosen 
well.  We  do  not  expect  to  Bend  anything 
more  for  some  days,  as  there  are  no  otiwi* 
goods  ready  for  packing.    We  desire  yon  Is 


761] 


firKgk  Triatmu 


vAy  oa  our  imnfUiiaK^  io  fidfiUiog  earefbDy 
jfour  orders.  J.  WAWDsaicBBK. 

'^  P.  S.  Sir  Samuel  Hood  suled  Thursday 
tbe  S9th  with  eight  ships  of  the  line,  ten 
frigates,  and  thr^  cutters^  and  every  thing 
wanting  for  our  West  India  islands.  We 
have  insured,  at  50  per  cent,  tiie  seventeen 
vessels  sent  on  private  account  to  Gibraltar : 
as  thev  sail  with  admiral  Hood  unto  a  certain 
latitude,  w^  oQly  fear  their  entrance  into  the 
straits ; — ^but  this  insvirance  does  mi  concern 
you. 

'^  With  regard  to  remitting  the  remnant  of 
our  old  account,  I  desire  you  to  discharge  the 
two  payments  of  it,  viz.  6,000  livres,  place 
pauphme,  and  the  rest  to  the  house  ot  Mr. 
Simper,  whereof  a  discharge  will  be  given  by 
us  upon  the  receipts,*' 
^  From  Mr.  Soyez." 

Francii  Bouer  sworn, 

fThis  witness  not  understanding  English, 
$ii  interpreter  was  sworn.] 

Examined'  by  Mr.  Salickor  General. 

Do  you  know  M.  De  la  Motte? — ^Yes. 

How  long  have  you  known  him? — Since 
the  month  of  December  last  year. 

Have  you  ever  seen  M.  De  la  Motte  writ6  ? 
^Yes. 

Look  at  these  papers,  and  tell  the  court  and 
jury  whether  you  believe  these  to  be  the 
hand  writing  ot  M.  De  la  Motte  ?— No.  7,  8, 
9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14^  16,  are  all  the  prisoner's 
hand  writing.  I  can't  say  that  No.  18  is  his 
hand-writing.  No.  10, 1  do  not  know  that  it 
is  his  hand-'writing ;  I  do  not  know  whether 
No.  SO  is  his  hand-writing  or  not  No.  31 
and  89  are  his  hand-writins ;  and  this  note 
(No.  17)  for  the  payment  of  181/.  is  his  mt- 
ing.    No.  33  and  S4  are  his  hand-writing. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Peckham, 

Who  are  vou  ? — A  merchant 

Where  do  you  live? — In  Queen-street, 
Golden-square. 

How  long  have  you  lived  there? — Six 
aoontha. 

Is  the  house  your  own  ? — ^No ;  I  am  a 
lodeer. 

What  is  the  person's  name  with  whom  you 
lodge  ? — ^Robinson. 

Is  he  the  master  of  the  house? — Yes. 

What  apartments  have  you  ? — The  first 
floor. 

What  merchandize  do  you  deal  in? — ^I  do 
not  trade  here,  but  traded  from  my  own  eoun- 
tiy ;  I  am  just  come  over. 

Then  you  are  a  merchant  that  does  not 
trade? — 1  traded  in  my  own  country,  and 
came  over  here  to  trade. 
*  Have  you  traded  siiice  you  have  been  hef  e  ? 
— ^I  have  been  in  a  merchant's  house  here 
three  years  ago. 

Whose  house  ?— -The  merchant's  name  is 


A.  a  1761^  [702 

Benthousen;  Ilivad  with  him as^a clerk. in 

the  counting-house. 

How  came  you  to  leave  him  ? — ^Because  I 
would  go  home  agun  to  my  own  country. 

Then,  having  gone  home  to  your  own 
country,  why  did  yon  come  back  ?-<-Because 
X  had  a  suit  at  law  in  my  own  country. 

Where  did  you  last  come  to  in  England  ? — 
I  was  always  m  the  same  house. 

Were  you  never  down  at  the  house  of  Mr. 
Lutterloh,  in  Hampshire  ? — ^Ycs. 

How  came  you  acquainted  with  Mr.  Lot' 
terloh? — ^I  was  acquainted  with  Mr.  Latter* 
loh  three  years  ago,  and  likewise  when  ha 
was  in  Germany. 

Were  not  you  a  servant  to  Lutterloh  ? — No. 

How  long  were  you  down  with  Lutterloh, 
and  when  ?-— I  was  down  six  weeks. 

At  what  time  was  that? — ^The  beginoiog  of 
November. 

You  said  just  now,  that  you  had  lodged  at 
Mr.  Robinson's  ever  since  vou  have  been  in 
England :  how  came  it  to  haopen  that  you 
had  been  at  Lutterloh's  six  weeks  of  the  time  ? 
Explain  that,  if  you  can. — ^When  I  first  came 
to  England^  1  lodeed  in  Little  Charles-street 

When  dMl  you  &dge  there  ? — From  August 
to  September. 

Where  did  you  lodge  before  the  month  of 
August?*— I  did  not  lodge  any  where  else; 
Charles^treet  was  the  first  place. 

You  told  me,  within  these  five  minutes, 
that  you  came  to  England  six  months  ago: 
now  you  say  you  were  there  a  twelvemonth 
ago. — ^I  came  to  London  first  in  the  month  of 
Ausust  m  last  year. 

Wh^n  did  you  first  see  M.  De  la  Motte  ?-^ 
I  was  acquainted  with  M.  Dela  Motte  throogb 
Mr.  Lutterloh. 

On  what  day  did  you  first  see  him  ?— I  can* 
not  tell  the  day. 

Where  did  you  see  him  ? — In  his  own  house 
in  Bond-street. 

That  was  the  first  time  you  saw  him  ? — 
Yes. 

What  did  you  go  there  for  ? — Because  I  had 
a  letter  from  Mr.  Lutterloh. 

How  long  did  vou  stay  with  M.  De  )a  Motte 
at  that  time  ? — ^I  staid  but  a  little  time  the 
first  time  when  I  saw  him ;  but  he  desired 
me  to  go  again  the  next  day. 

Did  you  go  aeain  the  next  day  ?«^Yes. 

How  long  diayou  stay  then  ? — I  staid  but  a 
little  while  the  next  time. 

Where  was  Mr.  Lutterloh  then  ?— Mr.  Lut- 
terloh  was  at  Wickham  at  that  time. 

When  did  you  see  M.  De  la  Motte  again 
after  those  two  times? — ^He  deshned  me  to. 
take  a  lodging,  and  come  again  in  a  couple  of 
days  time. 

Did  you  come  again  in  two  ^ys  time  ? — 
Yes. 

To  take  a  lodgine !  Why,  you  had  a  lodg- 
ing ? — ^I  had  not  a  todging  at  tfmt  time. 

Prom  whence  did  you  come  when  you  irst 
came  to  Dt  hi  Motte's  house? — I  came  from 
Wickham. 


763| 


21  6EQBGB  HI. 


Trial  tfR  H.  De  la,  Mottt, 


[764 


Was  that  the  lodging  you  tookin  Queen- 
fltreet,  Golden-square  ? — Yea. 

When  did  you  ^tee  M.  De  la  Motte  again, 
after  the  two  days?— I  saw  bim  two  aays 
tfterwards  again. 

What  day  was  this  of  December  ?**I  can't 
tell  the  day. 
'  Do  not  you  know  when  you  first  went  into 
your  leggings  in  Goldenrsquare  ? — ^I  have  for* 
got  that. 

When  did  you  see  him  again? — In  two 
days  again. 

-  Did  you  always  use  to  go  every  other  two 
days  ? — No,  not  always,  only  when  I  was  or- 
dered. 

Whit  did  you  go  for  ? — By  his  orders.'    * 

Tor  what? — li  you  will  give  me  leave,  I 
will  tell  the  whole  story.  When  I  had  been 
about  six  weeks  with  Mr.  LuUerloh  at  Wick- 
ham,  Mr.  I^tterloh  asked  me  if  I  would  not 
accept  of  a  place  to  have  ten  guineas  a  month. 

Do  not  you  talk  English  ? — I  can't  speak  it, 
not  to  explain  myself. 

You  don't  converse  in  English  in  London? 
-^No;  I  do  not. 

Had  you  any  employment  under  M.  De  la 
Motte  ?^No;  I  did  not  know  any  thing  of 
Lutterloh  nor  M.  De  la  Motte  at  that  time. 

Were  you  ever*  in  any  employment,  or  did 
any  business,  for  M.  De  la  Motte? — ^Yes. 

What  was  it  that  you  did  for  M.  De  la 
Motte? — I  had  not  done  any  thing  for  M.  De 
la  Motte ;  but  one  letter  was  carried  from 
him  to  Wickha.m. 

To  whom  did  you  carry  that  letter,  at  Wick- 
ham  ? — ^To  Mr.  Lutterloh. 

Did  you  often  see  M.  De  la  Motte  afier  you 
became  acquainted  with  him ;  and  when  you 
carried  the  letter  ? — ^Yes,  only  a  few  times  or 
io,noto(len. 

What  did  M.  De  la  Motte  talk  to  you  about, 
when  you  did  see  him?— -M.  De  la  Motte 
offered  to  pay  me,  on  the  t5th  of  January, 
ten  guineas  a  month  if  I  would  be  in  his  ser- 
vice. 

'  Did  you  agree  to  that  offer  of  M.  De  b 
Motte's?— Yes. 

Did  you  afler  that  time,  when  you  had  so 
agreed,  continue  in  the  service  of  M.  De  la 
Motte  ?— Yes. 

How  lone  did  you  continue  in  the  service  of 
M.  De  la  Motte,  so  paid  .at  ten  guineas  per 
month  ?— I  have  never  been  paid  amy  thing 
at  all  from  him  (for  M.  De  la  Motte  was  ar- 
rested before  the  time  came)  excepting  a 
.l»nk-note  for  10/.  and  three  guineas  which  J 
received  before  of  him;  but  Uie  10/.  was  for 
travelling  charges. 

When  you  first  came  to  London  in  Decem- 
ber, liutterloh  was  at  Wickham  ?— Yes. 
>   Did  you  see  LuHerloh  in  London  after  that  ? 
— ^Mr.  Lutterloh  and  I  returned  together  from 
Wickbam  to  London. 

Where  was  Lutterloh  in  London  when  you 
went  to  De  la  Motte  ? — I  do  not  know  where 
he  lodged  in  London  then ;  I  cannot  recollect 
where  it  was. 


How  came  you  to  carry  a  letter  irom  Mr. 
Lutterloh  to  M.  De  la  Motte,  if  Lutterloh 
himself  came  to  town  with  you  ?—^hatt  hap- 
pened before  we  came  together. 

You  said  just  now,  you  and  Mr.  Lutterloh 
came  to  London  together.  When  was  it  you 
came  to  London  with  Lutterloh?— In  the  be- 
ginning of  December. 

Did  Lutterloh  come  with  you  then,  or  did 
he  not? — Yes. 

Was  that  the  time  that  you  carried  the  let- 
ter?— AX  that  time  I  was  not  in  M.  De  la 
Motte*s  service. 

And  you  came  up  to  town  then  with  Lut- 
terloh  ? — Yes. 

Do  you  know  where  Lutterloh  lodged  in 
London? — I  have  been  in  liis  lodgings;  but  I 
cannot  recollect. 

Was  it  the  first  time  you  came  up  to  Lon- 
don with  Lutterloh  that  you  brought  the  let-^ 
ter  to  M.  De  la  Motte  ?— I  was  not  in  M.  De 
la  Motte's  service  when  I  came  with  Lutter* 
loh. 

I  know  that ;  but  I  want  to  know,  whea 
you  first  came  to  London  with  Lutterloh, 
whether  that  was  the  time  you  first  went  to 
De  la  Motte  with  a  letter  firom  Lutterloh  ? — 
No ;  I  did  not  know  M.  De  la  Motte  at  that 
time,  nor  did  not  carry  any  letter. 

When  was  it  that  you  aid  carry  a  letter  ? — ' 
I  brought  the  letter  to  M.  De  la  Motte  on  the 
24th  or  25th  of  December. 

That  was  the  first  time  you  ever  ¥ras  with 
M.  De  la  Motte  ? — ^Yes ;  the  very  first  time. 

At  that  time  Mr.  Lutterloh  was  in  the 
eountry  ?— Yes. 

How  lonv  after  that  letter  ¥ras  it  that  you 
saw  Lutterloh  again?— A  very  short  time 
afterwards ;  for  I  came  back  again  with  a  let- 
ter, and  delivered  it  to  Mr.  Lutterloh. 

When  did  you  first  see  M.  De  la  Motte 
write?— The  third  time  that  I  was  with  him, 
in  the  morning. 

What  was  it  he  wrote? — M.  De  la  Motte 
asked  me  what  I  had  seen  at  Mr.  Lutterloh's, 
and  if  I  had  not  made  a  journey  to  Ports- 
mouth, and  if  I  had  not  made  a  journey  with 
him  to  Plymouth. 

I  askea  you  what  it  was  you  saw  De  la 
Motte  write? — ^What  I  have  said  now,  about 
whether  I  had  been  at  Plymouth  and  Ports^ 
mouth. 

When  he  had  wrote  it,  what  did  he  dio  with 
it  ?-^He  kept  it  as  a  notice  or  memorandun^ 
to  himself. 

When  did  you  see  him  write  the  second 
time? — ^The  second  time  I  saw  him  write, 
was,  when  M.  De  la  Motte  sent  me  to  Lut- 
terloh. 

What  did  M.  De  la  Motte  say  in  that  letter? 
—I  did  not  see  the  inside  of  the  letter. 

When  did  you  aeun  see  him  write? — ^I 
never  saw  him  write  out  those  two  times. 

Some  of  these  papers  you  said  are  not  hit 
hand-writing,  the  others  are? 

Mr.  SolicUor  General.  He  said  tw«  of 
them  he  does  not  ki\ow. 


T65] 


for  High  Treason. 


A.D.  1781. 


[76fl 


Mr^  Peckham.  Do  you  know  your  own 
liand-writing  ^ — A,  Yes. 

Is  that  your  hsnd-writing  ?  (giving  the  wit- 
ncss  a  paper.) — Yes. 

Mr.  Soticitar  General.  The  gentleman  ask- 
ed you  just  now,  whether  a  paper  he  produced 
to  you  Was  your  hand-writins  ? — A.  Yes,  it  is. 

How  came  you  to  write  it  r— I  do  not  know 
trhat  it  is. 

Mr.  Le  Cointe  sworn. 

Examined  by  Mr.  Howorth. 

Do  you  know  M.  De  la  Motte,  the  pri- 
soner } — ^I  do. 

Have  you  ever  seen  him  write  ? — ^I  have. 

What  business  are  you  ? — A  merchant. 

Do  you  carry  on  any  business? — ^We  are  in 
the  exchange  fine,  and  a  merchant  for  goods 
likewise. 

Did  De  la  Motte  keep  cash  with  vou  occa- 
sionally ? — We  received  remittances  from  Paris 
for  him. 

To  what  amount  ?— To  about  S^OOO/.  I  be- 
lieve, from  the  month  of  June,  1778,  when 
we  were  first  acqusunted  with  M.  De  la  Motte. 

To  what  time  I — ^Till  the  end  of  last  year. 

Look  at  No.  7,  and  see  whether  you  can 
form  any  judgment  whose  hand-writing  it  is? 
— Before  I  do  that,  I  think  it  is  necessary  for 
me' to'  mention  that  I  have  seen  M.  De  la 
Motte  write,  but  it  is  but  very  seldom :  Khave 
received  notes  and  paoers  from  him,  but  they 
are  very  few;  and  therefore  I  am  not  ac- 
quaintea  suificiently  with  his  writing  to  have 
%  thorough  knowleage  of  his  hand«writing. 

I  ask  ^ou  whether  you  believe  it  to  be  his 
hand-writing,  or  not? — ^I  should  think  this  to 
be  his  hanf  writing.  I  l^iieve  No.  7,  8,  9, 
10,  are  air  De  la  Motto's  hand-writing.  No. 
Ill  don't  believe  to  be  his  hand-writmg. 

Look  at  the  seal.  '  Have  you  seen  that  be- 
fore?— I  cannot  say  tliat  I  have;  I  do  not  re- 
collect it.  No.  12  I  believe  to  be  M.  De  la 
Motte's,  and  No.  IS,  and  14,  likewise.  No. 
15  I  have  sreat  doubts  about.  No.  16  I  be- 
lieve to  be  nis  hand-writing,  and  No.  17, 18, 
•19 :  there  is  a  signature  at  the  bottom  of  19, 
which  I  do  not  know.  I  have  doubts  about 
No.  .90.  I  believe  No.  %1  to  be-  his  hand- 
writing. I  do  not  think  there  is  any  of  M. 
D6  la  Motte's  hand  writing  in  No.  S3,  save  the 
words  "  ready  money"  at  tlie  top.  No.  23, 
and  84, 1  believe  to  be  his  writing. 

Have  you  ever  received  letters  firom  M.  De 
la  Motte?— I  have. 

Whether  the  seal  upon  that  letter  is  the 
same  as  the  seals  to  letters  you  have  received 
from  M.  De  la  Motte? — I  b^Ueve  it  is. 

Have  you  the  letters  with  you? — I  have 
^the  witness  produced  a  letter,  and  compared 
It) ;  they  are  the  same  seal  as  there  is  to  No. 
9,  10 :  the  other  seali^  I  am  not  acquainted 
with. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Peckham^ 

'  You  say  you  have  very  seldom  seen  M. 
iDe.  ]a  Motte  ^yrite  f-^^Yes^  very  seldom. 


What  have  you  seen  him  write? — ^I  have 
seen  him  sign  his  name  very  frequently; 
D'Akerman  at  first,  and  afterwards  De  1< 
Motte. 

Have  you  seen  him  write  any  thing  else 
but  hb  name  ? — ^Yes,  I  have  seen  him  write 
a  note  or  two  at  our  compting-house. 

That  is,  you  were  in  the  compting-house 
when  he  wrote  the  note;  but  I  take  for 
granted,  you  was  too  much  of  a  gentleman  to 
look  over  him  ? — ^It  was  not  a  note  to  send  out 
of  the  compting-house,  but  a  note  of  some 
Utile  transaction  that  happened  in  the  compt- 
ine-house,  or  rather  a  direction. 

What  was  the  note  ?— I  can't  recollect. 

Can  }rou  take  upon  you  to  recollect  the 
hand-writing  of  a  note,  when  you  can't  recol- 
lect the  purport  of  the  note  ?^— Yesy  really  I 
can. 

Then  it  is  not  from  having  seen  it  at  that 
time,  but  your  recollection  arises  from  having 
seen  his  'writing  at  other  times?— And  that 
time  likewise. 

You  saw  him  write  a  note,  the  contents  of 
which  you  do  not  recollect ;  and  it  is  fimu 
thence  you  recollect  his  hand-writine  ?— Yes, 
as  also  from  these  notes  which  I  have .  got 
here^  and  from  one  or  two  more  that  I  have 
received  from  him. 

Did  you  see  him  write  these  notes  you  have 
here  R— No,  I  did  not;  . 

Then  your  idea  of  his  hand-writing  arises 
from  your  recollection  of  it'  from  these  note% 
and  not  from  the  times  when  you  have  actually 
seen  him  write?— From  one  and  from  the 
other ;  from  the  note  I  saw  him  write  in  th« 
compting-house;  it  was  from  tlience  that  I 
ground  the  opinion  I  have  of  his  hand^ 
writing. 

If  you  had  never  received  these  notes, 
which  you  did  not  see  him  write,  and  recol- 
lected his  hand-writingonlv  from  those  thines 
which  you  actually  saw  him  wrue,  woukl 
yeu  then  swear,  you  beheve  these  to  be  hi^ 
writing  ?^From  those  papers  I  have  mad^ 
oath  to  I  could. 

And  you  have  seen  him  write  his  name 
once,  and  onq^  write  a  note,  in  your  shop,  of 
which  you  do  not  recollect  the  contents  ? — I 
have  here  six  receipts  I|^t  inmypock^; 
there  are  many  others  I  leu  at  home. 

These  are  merely  the  signature  of  the  name 
that  was  written  by  him  ? — ^The  signature,  th» 
name  only. 

Therefore,  if  he  had  written  it  a  thousand 
times,  it  would  have  been  the  same  npmber 
of  letters  ? — I  think  he  one  time,  though  I  am 

S'   }t  very  certain,  gave  me  his  direction  at. 
ampstead,  when  m  lived  there.. 

Mr.  Samuel  Atkins  swOrn. 
Examined  by  the  Solicitcr  General. 

Do  you  know  M.  De  la  Motte^  the  pri« 
soner  ? — I  have  seen  him. 

Where? — ^At  his  lodgings  at  New  Bond- 
street,  and  at  Mr,  Lutterloh's  house  at  Wick« 
ham.  •      4 


767] 


il  GEORGE  in. 


Trial  of  P.  H.  D«  ta  Mttite, 


[76$ 


When  yoit  ww  him  si  New  Botidrstreet, 
vna  Mr.  Lutterloh  with  him? — ^Yes^  he  in- 
troduced me. 

You  live  upon  your  fortune,  in  Hampshire? 
^Yes, 

Where  did  your  acquaintance  with  Lutter- 
loh commence? — From  his  situation  at  Wick'- 
ham.  I  live  at  Wickhami  I  dined  witli  Mr. 
Lutteiloh  at  M.  De  la  Motte's :  I  afterwards 
saw  M.  De  la  Motte  at  Lutterloh's  house  at 
Wickhatn. 

.  When  was  that'— After  Christmas^  some 
time  the  beginning  of  this  year;  it  was  a  day 
or  two  before  I  heard  of  M.  De  la  Motte's  bet- 
ing taken  up. 

At  the  time  when  you  saw  M.  De  la  Motte 
aX  Lutterloh's,  was  fate  upon  a  visit  to  him  f -^ 
I  understood  so. 

Mrs.  Hannet  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Solicitor  General. 

Where  dp  you  live? — I  live  at  No.  18, 
Porter-street. 

Have  you  seea  M.  De  la  Motte  come  to 
your  house  ?-^I  can  tell  if  I  see  him. 

Look  about  the  court — I  don't  see  the  gen- 
llepiaa. 

(Tbe  witness  went  round  the  court,  but  did 
not  fix  upon  any  person.) 

End  of  the  Evidenufor  the  Crown, 

Mr.  Peckham,  I  find  myself  unexpectedly 
ealied  upon  to  enter  on  a  deifence,  which,  from 
the  nature  of  the  charge,  and  the  length  of 
the  evidence,  requires,  and  would  have  re- 
ceived, the  assistance  of  Mr.  Dunning  •  but 
unhappily  for  me,  and  still  more  unhappily  for 
my  caent.  illness  disables  him  from  perform- 
ing that  auty  which  1  feel  mvself  by  no  means 
fl\ttdilied  to  discharge.  Were  my  learned 
^ieod  to  make  the  defence  wfaich  now  de- 
volves upon  me^  he  would  easilv  convince  you 
of  the  innocence  of  M.  De  la  Motte,  and  repel 
the  acousation  with  in£uny.on  his. accusers. 

But  it  is  not  M.  De  la  Motte  alone  who  has 
leason  to  deplore  the  absence  of  Mr.  Dun- 
fiins;  I  feel  most  sensibly  the  weight  of  the 
misfortune,  and  have  no  consolation  but  this, 
that  yo^r  recollection  will  assist  my  memor;^, 
and  your  judgment  ooirect  my  errors.  Permit 
me  werefore  to  solicit  your  grave  and  serious 
,  attention  in  behalf  of  the  unfortunate  gentle- 
man at  the  bar,  who  is  called  upon  to  answer 
with  his  life  a  charge  of  constructive  treason, 
founded  on  an  English  act  of  parliament. 
He  stands  before  you,  a  stranger  to  your  lan- 
guage, ^our  customs,  and  vour  laws;  yeth« 
reli^  with  confidence  on  his  innocence,  on 
your  justice,  and  on  that  humanity  which  is 
the  eenuine  characteristic  of  an  Englishman. 
Of  bis  innocence,  I  trust,  you,  genUemen, 
•htertain  as  little  doubt,  as  I  do  of  your  hu- 
manity ;  because  I  flatter  myself  that  ^u 
possess  that  liberality  of  sentiment,  whi^h, 
superior  to  narrow  prejudice,  disdains  all  nai- 
lional  distinctions,    I  speak  not  from  an  idle 


ho^,  but  fipom  observations  founded  on  ex- 
perience. 

X  have  remarked,  in  all  cauites  at  Guildhall, 
even  between  alien  enemies  and  English  uih 
derwriters,  that  the  juries  of  the  city  of  Lox>- 
don,  whether  composed  of  the  most  opulent 
merchants  or  the  meanest  mechanics,  have 
all  been  actuated  by  the  same  nobleness  of 
soul,  and '  lean  most  partially,  and  I  will  add 
most  honourably,  in  favour  of  the  foreigner 
ajgainstthe  native.  When  I  say  most  par-« 
tially  and  most  honourably,  it  mav  strike  you 
perhaps  as  a  solecism  in  terms ;  but  it  is  a 
conduct  that  luis  been  stampt  with  the  appro- 
bation of  lord  Mansfield^  who  publicly  de- 
clared in  the  Court  of  Rrng's-bench,  wt^in 
these  few  weeks,  that  it  was  much  to  the  ho- 
nour of  the  Londcm  juries,  that  such  a  partia- 
lity universally  prevailed  in  favour  of  tUe 
lareigners  who  appealed  to  them  for  justice. 

As  the  juries  of  the  city  of  Londcm  are  so 
laudably  attentive  to  the  property  of  an  aHeii 
enemy,  have  I  not  a  ri^t  to  expect  that  a 
iuiy  of  the  county  of  Middlesex  will  at,  least 
be  as  attentive  to  the  life  of  an  unhappy  fel- 
low-creature ;  and  that  this  gentleman  will 
experience  from  you  the  same  measure  of  jus- 
tice as  ^our  countryman,  your  neighbour,  or 
your  friend  ? 

It  is  not  from  affectation  that  I  call  him 
^  the  gentleman  at  the  bar;'  but  I  cannot 
bring  myself  to  wound  his  fedings  bv  the 
humiliatine  sound  of*  prisoner,'  when  I  know 
that  he  is  by  birth,  education  and  profession, 
a  gentleman.  You  will  naturally  enquire  his 
histoiy,  which  his  ignorance  of  our  lan^iuage 
will  prevent  him  from  stating.  Permit  me 
therefore  to  fpve  you  the  outline,  and  the 
reasons  which  uiduced  him  to  settle  in  thb 
countiv. 

In  the  course  of  the  last  war  he  served  his 
country  with  honour,  and  became  colonel  of 
the  redmMit  of  Soubise.  When  the  war 
ended,  nis  redment.was  broke,  and  of  course 
some  part  of  his  emoliunents  diminished :  he 
had  then  to  retire  to  his  own  estate,  which 
was  situated  in  Alsace,  and  which  communW 
cated  to  him  the  barony  of  D'Akerman.  Here 
let  me  observe,  that  Mr.  Le  Cointe  informed 
you,  that  he  sometimes  wrote  D'Akerman^ 
and  at  other  times  De  la  Motte.  These  dif^ 
ferent  signatures  mieht  induce  ^rou  to  believtv 
that  he  had  passed  under  fictitious  names : 
but  that  r  can  easily  reconcile ;  for  titles  of 
honour  in  France  differ  in  many  instances 
from  tiUes  in. England:  here  they  descend 
from  father  to  son,  and  a  man  enioys  the  title 
from  his  blood;  but  there  it  belongs  to  the 
particular  estate,  and  he  Ivho  is  the  poeaesBor 
bf  the  land  often  possesses  the  titie.  When 
I  say  this,  I  do  not  mean  that  every  estate 
in  Prance  communicates  a  title  to  its  pos* 
sessor;  but  I  wish  to  be  understood,  that  aa 
estate  in  France  which  b  called  a  sogniory, 
and  answers  to  a  manor  in  England,  commu- 
nicates a  title  to  its  owner,  of  baron,  count, 
or  marquis,  as  it  may  happen;  which  titles 


769] 


fur  Hi^i  Treason* 


A.  D.  1781. 


[770 


are  attached  to  the  estate,  and  not  to  the 
person.  By  virtue  therefore  of  an  estate  in 
the  province  of  Alsace,  the  gentleman  at  the 
bar  became  baron  D*Akcrman.  His  regi- 
ment being  broke,  he,  like  many  of  our  men 
of  fashion,  lived  at  anjexpence  beyond  his  in- 
come :  the  natural  conseauence  was,  that  he 
became  so  involved  in  debt,  that,  though  not 
ruined,  he  found  it  expedient  to  retire  into 
this  countrVj  as  our  nobility  and  gentry  reUre 
to  France,  for  the  purpose  of  arranging  hb 
afikirs. 

He  appeared  here  in  his  real  name  of  baron 
D'Akerman,  and  continued  in  that  character 
about  twelve  months,  when  his  estate  was 
sold  for  the  benefit  of  his  creditors,  his  debts 
were  paid,  and  the  vTeck  of  his  fortune  was 
destined  for  his  subsistence :  the  residue  was 
sufficiently  ample  for  him  to  live  here  in  com- 
fort, and  in  a  degree  of  aiRuence ;  but  was 
very  insufficient  for  him  to  return  to  his  own 
country,  in  that  splendor  and  state  he  had 
been  in  the  .habit  of  living. 

As  soon  as  he  sold  his  estate,  he  dropt  the 
title,  which  no  longer  was  his,  and  took  his 
family  name  of  De  la  Mo  tie,  and  lived  in  tliis 
country,  as  quiet,  and  as  free  from  vice  or 
guilt,  as  any  man  to  whom  I  have  now  the 
honour  of  addressing  myself.  But,  unfortu- 
nately for  him,  he  became  acquainted  with 
Lutterloh,  who  introduced  him  to  Af  r.  Wal- 
trond.  I  need  not  observe  to  you,  that  lAit- 
terloh  is  a  man  of  intrigue,  a  great  schemer, 
in  short,  an  adventurer.'  Waltrond  and  Lut- 
terloh advised  M.  De  la  Motte,  as  he  had 
ereat  knowledge  of  prints,  and  understood 
drawings  and  pictures,  to  deal  in  those  arti- 
cleSy  as  it  was  not  at  all  beneath  the  dignity 
of  an  Enslish  gentleman,  though  in  France 
h  might  be  thought  disgraccftil ;  by  which 
means  the  fortune  that  remained  to  him 
might  be  amply  increased.  In  conse<juence 
of  tins  advice,  and  feeling  a  desire  to  enlarge 
his  income,  he  commenced  a  dealer,  and  car- 
ried on  trade.  I  do  not  mean,  by  trade,  to 
say  that  contraband  trade  which  is  forbidden 
in  this  country ;  but,  if  he  had,  as  it  would 
only  have  been  a  breach  of  a  law  of  policy 
and  regulation,  I  think  you  would  not  say  M. 
De  la  Motte  was  a  very"  great  offender :  but, 
as  I  am  taught  to  understand,  the  articles  in 
which  he  dealt  were  articles  not  prohibited  to 
be  exported^  but  were  valuable  in  France,  and 
for  wnich  he  had  his  remittances  in  money. 
When  I  say  in  France,  I  mean  upon  the  Con- 
tinent; for  many  of  tliese  things  were  carried 
to  Ostend;  some,  indeed,  to  Dunkirk  and 
Boulogne :  but  they  were  chiefly  sent  to  the 
emperor  of  Germany'^  dominions.  Those 
articles  were  prints,  dra^vings,  the  different 
kind3  of  jewellery  that  are  in  estimation  there, 
and  the  hard- wares  of  Birmingham  and  Shef- 
field. 

This  account  does  not  rest  only  on  my  as- 
sertion; it  has  been  proved  to  you  by  the 
witnesses  csdled  for  the  prosecution :  and  in 
consequence  of  t)3at  trade  it  is  that  these  re- 

VOL.  XXI, 


mittances  were  made  to  him  ih  England,  as 
mentioned  by  Le  Coinle ;  which  migbt  pos- 
sibly have  made  an  improper  impression  on 
you,  on  the  idea  of  their  amounting  to  3,000l. 
m  the  space  of  two  years:  but,  when  you 
consider  great  part  of  these  remittances  were 
for  goods  sent  abroad,  you  will  no  more  call 
that  receiving  1,500/.  a  year,  than  you  will 
say  a  tradesman  gains  1,500/.  a  year  because 
in  the  course  of  the  year  he  appears  to  have 
received  that  sum,  when  probamy  the  balance 
is  trilling,  ^d  he  only  lives  upon  the  re- 
sidue.' 

Afler  he  had  carried  on  this  traffic  for  some 
time  with  perfect  innocence  on  his  part,  and 
without  the  least  suspicion  of  crime,  Lutter- 
loh, who  had  upon  various  occasions  started 
different  schemes  by  which  he  might  amass 
an  ample  fortune,  at  length  proposed  that 
which  I  was  astonished  to  hear  nim  allude 
to ;  for  I  thought  he  had  been  too  artful  and 
too  cunning  a  man  to  mention  any  thing  of 
the  sort :  but  however  he  luis  inadvertently: 
interwoven  some  truth  in  his  narrative ;  for 
he  had  applied  to  M.  de  la  Motte,  and  told 
him  that  lus  coounerce  min^ht  be  made  much 
more  valuable,  if  he  would  carry  it  on  upon 
a  more  extensive  plan,  and  send  it  directly  to 
France. 

M.  De  la  Motte  said  that  was  impossible!, 
as  there  was  a  war  with  France;  he  therefore 
could  only  send  his  goods  to -Ostend,  unless 
by  chance  he  might  be  able  to  get  one  of  tbosR 
men  that  had  been  employra  to  send  his 
goods  to  Dunkirk  or  Bouiosne;  that  the 
scheme  did  not  seem  feasible;  and  that  he 
should  only  lose  his  property,  instead  of  ex- 
tending his  trade. 

Lutterloh  insisted,  that  the  scheme  wa3 
plausible.  **  I  am,  for  instance,''  says  he, 
*  a  very  good  friend  of  sir  Hugh  Palliser'' 
(whether  sir  Hugh  feels  it  as  a  compliment,  is 
not  for  me  to  determine) :  **  1  can,  wough  his 
means,  £et  a  passport  of  lord  Sandwich;  and, 
under  tne  ostensible  idea  of  conveying  &lse 
intelligence  to  France,  we  shall  then  get  a 
passport ;  our  vessels  will  go  in  safety ;  and 
we  will  tell  the  French  ministry  that  we  wiH 
give  them  true  intelhgence^  but,  in  fact,  will 
give  them  false." 

M.  De  la  Motte,  much  to  his  honour,  said^ 
that,  though  he  lived  in  this  country,  he  had 
not  forgot  that  he  was  a  native  ot  France ; 
and  that  he  would  neither  betray  the  country 
in  which  he  lived,  nor  be  base  enough  to  de- 
ceive that  country  in  which  he  was  born. 
The  shameful  offer  was  rejected  with  scorn  ; 
and  M.  Ue  la  Motte  pursued  the  plan  in  which 
he  set  out. 

It  is  worthy  observation,  that  Lutterloh 
should  be  so  exceeding  solicitous  for  M.  De 
la^  Motte  to  come  down  and  pay  him  a  visit 
at  Christmas:  it  is  something  extraordinary 
that  he  should  have  given  to  M.  t)e  la  Motte, 
papers,  the  contents  of  which  could  have  beeioi 
so  easily  carried  in  his  head  :  it  is  very  odd 
(if  there  wer^  these  smuggling  vessels  that 

3  D 


771] 


21  GEORGE  UI. 


Trial  qfT.  H.  De  la  Matte, 


[772 


Lutterloh  coOld  have  daily  sent  from  Ports- 
mouth,  or  that  neighbourhood)  that  these 
paners  should  be  carried  to  London,  instead 
.of  Deing  sent  by  them.  Strange  as  it  may  ap- 
pear, yet  it  is  llutterloh's  story. 

I  have  not  yet  been  told  by  any  witness, 
how  it  hap])ened  that  M.  De  la  Motte  was 
seized  at  this  particular  period,  with  those 
yery  particular  oapers  in  his  pocket,  all  of 
them  m  the  hand-writing  of  Lutterloh :  but  I 
can  easily  understand,  that  Lutterloh,  to  add 
another  scheme  to  the  many  he  had  perpe- 
trated, thought  he  could  engage  government 
powerfullv  m  his  favour,  and  tlmt  he  could 
iix  and  fasten  to  himself  the  honourable 
friendship  of  the  honourable  sir  Hugh  PaL- 
liser ;  and  that  he  could  not  employ  better 
means  than  by  holding  up  M.  De  la  Motte 
as  a  traitor,  who  ought  to  be  brought  to 
punishment  for  the  intelligence  he  was  about 
to  give.  If  Lutterloh  had  not  conveyed  that 
intelligence  into  bis  pocket,  it  is  inconceivable 
to  roe  that  M.  De  la  Motte  should  be  seized 
the  moment  he  got  to  town,  and  that  these 
papers  should  be  found  in  his  pocket  when  he 
came  from  Wickham,  which  ought  to  have 
been  sent  from  the  coast  to  France,  not  to 
have  been  brought  to  London. 

I  flatter  myself,  that  every  man  belonging 
to  government  would-  be  above  bringing  an 
innocent  man's  life  in  jeopardy,  unless  con- 
vinced of  his  guilt :  notwithstanding  which,  I 
can  clearly  conceive  that  Mr.  Lutterloh, 
whose  character  you  can  be  no  stranger  to, 
if  you  will  pay  credit  to  himself,  might  think 
he  could  get  a  fortune  by  his  treachery,  fool- 
ishly imagining  that  he  should  do  most  ac- 
ceptable service  to  his  friend's  friend  at  the 
head  of  the  Admiralty,  if  he  could  fix  on  M. 
De  la  Motte  a  criminal  correspondence  with 
the  enemy ;  which  would  be  an  apology  for 
those  manifold  misfortunes,  and  repeateorais- 

'  carriages,  that  have  brought  this  devoted 
country  to  ruin,  and  which  we  have  been 
weak  enough  to  attribute  to  the  inability,  neg- 
ligence, and  incapacity,  of  those  who  have 
presided  oyer  the  naval  department.  He 
might  possibly  conceive  that  anv  apology  for 
those  ill  successes  would  not  only  merit^  but 
command  a  reward. 

Having  said  thus  much  of  the  history  of 
M.  De  la  Motte,  permit  me  now  to  state  to 
you  for  what  he  is  indicted.  He  is  indicted 
for  high  treason,  under  an  act  passed  in  the 
reign  of  Edward  the  Sd ;  by  which,  to  com- 
pass or  imagine  the  death  of  the  king,  or  to 
give  aid,  or  adhere  to  his  enemies,  upon  suffi- 
cient proof  of  open  deed,  subjects  the  offender 
to  be  attainted.  ^  To  compass,"  signifies'  the 
intention  of  the  mind;  bu^  as  thaiintention 

*  am  be  iudged  Of  only  by  the  Almighty,  it 
does  not  fall  within  the  limits  of  human judi- 

-  cature  ^  and  therefore  the  intention  of  the 
mind  is  fiot  within  the  act  of  parliament, 
unless  accompanied  by  some  open  or  overt 
deed.  From  the  evidence  that  ha»  been  al- 
ready given,  it  would  be  abundantly  too  much 


for  you  to  put  so  forced  a  construction  upon 
this  act,  as  to  sa^  that  sending  a  copy  of  a 
newspaper,  or  a  printed  list  of  the  sick  and 
convalescents  at  Haslar  hospital,  is  to  com- 
pass and  imagine  the  death  of  the  king: 
therefore  the  first  count,  I  trust,  will  not  b« 
supported  by  your  verdict.  But  I  am  ready 
to  allow,  that  there  is  another  count  in  the 
indictment,  which  will  do  equally  as  well  for 
the  purpose  of  justice;  which  is,  'adliering 
to  the  king's  enemies,'  &c.  I  am  free  to  cooi^ 
fess,  that  giving  intelligence  to  the  king'* 
enemies  does  amount  to  an  overt  act ;  ana  I 
should  not  do  myself  nor  you  justice,  if  I  did 
not  admit  it :  but  when  I  make  the  admis- 
sion, I  beg  you  will  attend  to  the  proof  of  that 
charge. 

The  first  charge  in  the  indictment  is,  that 
he  composed  and  wrote  a  certain  letter,  giv- 
ing an  account  of  the  number  of  the  ships  at 
Spithead,  and  of  the  fleet  under  commodore 
Johnston,  with  many  other  particulars  that  I 
need  not  repeat,  to  be  sent  *  to  certain  sub- 
jects of  the  French  king.'  That  is  the  first 
charge  in  the  indictment :  therefore  you  will 
please  to  recollect,  that  if  he  has  sent  ten 
thousand  letters  to  persons  who  are  not  sub- 
jects of  the  French  king,  they  cannot  crimi- 
nate M.  De  la  Motte,  because  the  indictment 
is  not  proved,  which  charges  him  with  send- 
ing letters  to  the  subjects  of  the  French  king. 
Here  let  me  ask,  what  was  sent?  Not  letters, 
but  prints;  and  even  these  were  sent  to 
Ostend.  Therefore,  when  I  asked,  not  fool- 
ishly, though  it  provoked  a  smile  from  the 
counsel  for  the  crown,  whether  Ostend  was 
within  the  dominions  of  the  emperor  of  Ger- 
many ?  I  asked  it,  not  meaning  to  throw  any 
imputation  upon  your  knowledge,  but  because 
it  was  necessary  to  appear  in  evidence,  that 
Ostend  was  under  the  dominion  of  the  em- 
peror. The  moment  that  fact  was  proved, 
every  thing  that  Roger  carried  from  England, 
even  if  he  had  carried  it  from  M.  De  la 
Motte  himself  to  Ostend,  was  totally  irrelative 
to  this  indictment.  But,  say  they,  there  was 
a  person  at  Ostend  connected  with  a  Mr. 
Dessein  of  Calais.  Be  it  so  f  But  Le  Fevre 
did  not  receive  any  goods  of  Roger  as  a  ser- 
vant or  a  messenger  of  Dessein's ;  but  he  at* 
tended  duly  at  the  market,  if  I  may  be  allow- 
ed the  expression ;  had  a  lodging  in  the  town, 
and  resided  there,  to  buy  carriages  and  other 
articles  at  Ostend,  for  the  use  of  rtfr.  Dessein. 
He  therefore  did  that  which  every  other  per* 
son  might  do,  purchase,  at  a  fair  price,  those 
comm(Mities  tnat  were  sent  over  from  Eng- 
land to  Ostcmd ;  whether  by  M.  De  la  Motte; 
Waltrond,  or  by  any /other  person,  is  toUdlj 
immaterial ;  and  of  course  you  will  lay  it  out 
of  the  case* 

The  next  charge  in  the  indictment  is,  that 
on  the  30th  of  June  M.  De  la  Motte  hired 
Stephen  Batcliffe  to  cany,  in  his  vessel,  cer- 
tain letters  and  instructions  to  inform  the 
French  king  and  his  sulgects  of  the  stations 
of  our  navsd  and  mttilary  force.    Now,  gen* 


77S] 


Jor  High  TreaMm. 


^,  D.  1781. 


[774 


tlemen,  is  that  proved  ?  Is  it  proved  that  M.  i 
De  la  Motte  hired  RatclifTe  to  carry  any 
thing?  If  it  is,  is  it  proved  that  M.  De  la 
Motte  hired  Ratcliffe  to  cany  letters  and  in- 
structions? But  if  it  is  proved  that  he  was 
hired  by  M.  De  la  Motte  to  carry  letters  and 
instructions,  is  it  proved  that  those  letters  and 
instructions  went  to  the  subjects  of  the  French 
king  ?  No !  Ratcliffe  carried  these  things  to 
Ostend :  and  he  does  not  even  now  pretend 
to  say,  that  the  thin^  that  were  carried  to 
Boulogne  were  given  nim  by  M.  De  la  Motte, 
or  his  ordeh 

One  of  tkfi  Jury.  I  beg  your  pardon ;  a 
letter  dated  June  30th  was  directea  to  Mons. 
Sartine. 

Mr.  Peckham,  I  thank  you  for  your  at- 
tention; but  I  do  not  make  myself  under-; 
stood.  The  charge  is,  that  Stephen  Rat- 
cliffe was  hired,  by  M.  De  la  Motte,  to  carry 
letters  and  instructions  to  the  subjects  of  the 
French  king.  If  you  slease,  I  am  ready  to 
allow  that  Katchffe  dia  carry  a  letter  direct- 
ed to  Mons.  Sartine ;  but  I  call  upon  the  mi- 
nutes of  the  court,  and  I  am  confident  from 
thence  you  will  hear,  that  the  letter  address- 
ed to  M.  Sartine  was  not  proved  to  be  in  the 
hands  of  M.  De  la  Motte,  was  not  proved  to 
be  written  by  M.  De  la  Mptte^  and  was  not 
proved  to  be  sent  by  his  order. 

Gentlemen,  before  I  proceed,  p^rhap^it 
will  be  necessary  for  me  to  recall  to  your  Re- 
collection what  evidence  has  been  given  with 
respect  to  these  letters  that  are  supposed  to 
have  been  sent  by  Ratcliffe.  We  had  some 
argument  upon  this  subject  before ;  therefore 
it  may  be  necessary  now  for  me  to  sav  the 
less  upon  it,  because  there  is  not  one  letter 
before  you  in  evidence,  no,  not  a  single  let- 
ter, that  was  ever  carried  by  Roger  or  Rat- 
cline ;  nor  is  there  the  copy  of  any  one  let- 
ter, that  was  carried  either  by  Roger  or  Rat- 
clitf  e,  in  evidence.  I  mention  this  with  some 
empfkasis,  because  I  have  no  doubt  it  must 
have  made  a  certain  impression  upon  your 
*  minds;  I  mention  it,  that  you  may  do  jus- 
tice to  the  prisoner,  and  to  yourselves^  by 
erasing  that  impression  from  your  knmds, 
which  the  counsel  for  the  crown  ought  not 
to  hxvfi  made.  None  of  the  original  letters 
have  been  produced :  if  they  had,  they  could 
not  have  been  traced  to  M.  De  la  Motte. 
Copies  of  those  letters  only  have  been  pro- 
duced, which  the  Court  would  not  suffer  to 
be  given  in  evidence.  You  are  therefore  re- 
lieved fir(>m  that  part  of  the  indictment 

I  think  the  next  chaige  in  the  indictment 
is,  ^  that  on  the  5th  of  ^muary,  1781,  M.  De 
la  Matle  did  obtain,  and  get  mto  his  hands, 
accounts  of  the  numbers  and  the  names  of 
the  ships  at  Portsmouth,  and  of  the  squadron 
to  sail  under  commodore  Johnstone.'^  Now 
you  will  pleate  to  observe,  that  he  did  it  '<  in 
order^  and  with  intent,  to  send  the  same  to 
certam  sulgects  of  the  French  king ;  and  for 
that  purpoee  he  conveyed  them  to  the  house 
of  Aiobard  OUey."    Upon  this  charge  of  the 


indictment  you  can  receive  nothing  in  evi- 
dence, but  those  papers  that  were  actually 
conveyed  to  the  house  of  Mr.  OUcy;  and 
even  then  they  will  not  affect  M.  De  la 
Motte,  unless  you  think  yourselves  bound  by 
your  oath  to  say  Uiat  they  were  brought  to 
London  in  order^  and  with  the  intent,  to  send 
them  to  the  subjects  of  the  French  king. 

Let  me  ask  you,  gentlemen,  how  does  that 
intention  appear  f  For  the  charge,  you  ob- 
serve, is,  that  he  obtained  accounts,  and  got 
them  into  his  hands,  with  the  intent  of  send- 
ing them  to  the  subjects  of  the  French  king;, 
and  for  that  purpose  he  conveved  them  to 
London.  Does  his  conveying  them  to  Lon- 
don, into  the  interior  part  ot  the  kingdom, 
from  the  sea-coast,  shew  that  intention  ?  Is 
there  any  evidence  of  the  intention  of  M. 
De  la  Motte  to  send  those  papers  abroad, 
that  were  found  upon  his  person  in  London, 
when  it  appears  that  he  had  brought  them  , 
from  the  sea-coast,  where,  if  what  Lutterloh 
has  said  is  true,  there  were  vessels  ready  at  # 
every  hour  to  so  to  France?  Notwithstanding 
which,  he  takes  them  from  the  sea-coast, 
where  they  might  be  sent,  and  brings  them  up 
to  London,  as  it  seems  to  me,  Tor  no  other 
purpose  than  to  send  them  back  again.  As 
no  proof  of  this  intention  has  been  given, 
you  will  not  presume  it ;  for,  in  a  case  of 
life  and  death,  I  am  sure  you  wilt  presume 
nothing  against  the  accused.  Your  huma- 
nity, your  justice,  will  not  suffer  you  to  draw 
any  meti4>hysical  concluaons  of  the  intent 
tion  of  a  man,  unless  it  is  fully  proved  to  you 
by  actu>n.  But,  permit  me  to  ask,  what  are 
these  papers  that  were  thus  found  upon  him  f 
Jellous  has  told  you,  that  he  found  in  all 
seven  papers :  some  of  them  he  took  from 
his  pocket;  others  he  took  from  the  floor. 
You  will  pleade  to  recollect,  that  these  men 
had  been  waiting  for  him  upwards  of  S4 
hours.  Whether,  therefore,  they  brought 
any  papers  into  the  house ;  whether  there 
was  any  thing  upon  the  stairs  that  did  not  be- 
long to  him ;  whether  they,  or  any  body  else, 
half  dropped  any  thing,  is  more  than  you  can 
tell :  for  the  fact  is,  that  some  of  the  papers 
only  were  taken  from  his  person ;  others  were, 
taken  up,  that  lay  upon  the  ^  floor.  I  sup- 
pose it  was  intended  to  convey  some  insinua- 
tion of  the  guilt  of  M.  De  la  Motte,  that 
when  his  servant  spoke  to  him,  he  turned 
upon  his  heel,  as  if  he  wished  to  go  out.  I 
could  have  wished  an  Englishman  had  not 
given  such  an  evidence :  "  he  turned  upon  his 
heel,  as  if  he  wished  to  go  out.*'  It  might 
have  been  as  well,  if  he  had  only  stated  the 
fact,  without  drawing  ins  conclusion.  He 
adds,  that  these  papers  were  thrown  from  his 
pocket;  I  take  it  for  granted,  with  a  view  to 
make  you  believe  that  M.  De  la  Motte 
thought  there  was  something  so  criminal  in 
those  papers,  that  he,  for  his  own  security, 
attempted  to  get  rid  of  them.  Yet  one  of  the 
papers  thrown  firom  his  pocket  was  a  10/.  bank 
note.    Can  you  not  conceive,  that  a  foreigner, 


775] 


21  GEORGE  m. 


Trial  ofF.  It.  De  la  MoUe, 


[776 


finding  himself  attacked,  if  ^ou  please  hr  the 
officers  of  justice,  and  knowing  tbero  to  be  80 
—cannot  you  conceive,  that  he  thought  it  full 
as  well  for  him  to  take  care  of  his  own  pro* 
perty,  or  even  to  throw  it  upon  the  floor,  or 
give  it  to  his  servant,  as  to  give  it  to  the  offi- 
cers of  justice?  of  whom  he  probably  migjii 
have  heard,  that  they  are  in  stronger  habits 
of  seizing  property,  than  of  returning  it,  and 
that  from  their  office  property  does  not  always 
find  its  way  back  so  r^ulily  to  the  persons 
froni  whom  it  was  taken.  I  think  ne  was 
not  much  to  be  blamed  for  this :  and  it  will 
be  at  least  as  fair»  and  as  honourable,  for  you 
to  suppose  that  be  threw  these  p^)ers  away 
with  a  view  of  preservins  his  bank-note,  as  to 
suppoKe  that  he  threw  Uiese  papers  away  for 
fear  they  should  criminate  himself.  Geatle- 
men,  the  papers  that  were  thus  taken  up 
Mere,  a  printed  bill  of.  Haslar  hospital,  an  ac- 
count qt  commodore  Johnstone's  squadron, 
and  likewise  an  imperfect  account  of  the 
ships  that  were  at  Spithead.  These  are  the 
papers,  and  these  are  the  only  papers,  that 
were  seized  upon  his  person. 

Gentlemen,  you  will  be  so  obliging  as  to 
pay  some  little  attention  to  the  observation 
I  am  about  to  make:  not  from  the  quarter 
from  whence  it  comes,  but  as  it  may  deserve 
some  attention  in  the  determination  that  you 
soon  must  make.  Those  papers  that  were 
taken  in  M.  De  la  Mottc's  custody  and  pos- 
session, were  not  one  of  them  m  his  own 
hand-writing.  The  papers  thus  seized  were 
written  by  Lutterloh,  the  gentleman  at  whose 
house  he  had  been  on  a  visit;  and  for  what 
purpose  could  these  papers  have  been  brought 
to  London,  unless  it  was  for  the  insidious 
purpose  that  Lutterloh  had  planned,  of  hav- 
ing these  things  found  in  his  possession,  to 
make  good  the  charge  in  this  indictment? 

This  brings  me  to  the  next  charge  in  the 
indictment,  which  is,  "That  he,De  la  Motte, 
retained  Lutterloh  to  obtain  information  of 
the  sailing  of  commodore  Johnstone's  squar 
dron,  and  to  send  such  information  to  certain 
subjects  of  the  French  kine."  Now, you  will 
please  to  remember,  that  this  is  proved  like- 
wise by  Lutterk)h  only ;  and  you  will  please 
to  remember,  that  employing  a  man  to  send 
instructions,  or  advice,  if  that  intelligence  is 
never  sent,  though  it  may  be  in  itself  criminal, 
though  it  may  be  unjustifiable,  is  not  an  of- 
fence for  which  a  man's  life  is  to  be  forfeited. 
I. may  employ  another,  if  1  have  a  heart  like 
lutterloh,  to  take  away  the  life  of  a  felk>w- 
creatiure ;  but,  God  forbid  that  I  should  be 
hanged  for  murder,  though  <he  fact  of  em- 
ployment  is  proved  upon  me,  if  the  man  lives, 
upon  whom  the  murder  was  to  have  been 
committed !  Try  the  present  clurge  by  the 
same  rule :  I  do  not  ask  too  muchi  of  you ; 
f(tf,  as  high  treason  is  a  greater  crime,  you 
will  put  as  favourable  a  construction  upon  it. 
Suppose  every  thing  that  Lutterl^ob^  has  said 
is.  true,  that  he  was  actually  employed'  to  send 
certain  instruction  and  advioe-t^  sul>|ects  of 


the  French  king;  yet  that  advice,  and  those 
instructions,  were  never  qent:  therefore  M. 
De  la  Motte  may  have  done  a  thing  that  is 
criminal,  but  has  not  done  that  act  which 
ouohtto  convict  him  of  high  treason. 

Uaving  said  thus  much  upon  the  dif&rent 
charges  of  the  indictment,  permit  me  now  to 
remind  you  of  what  the  law  has  said,  upon 
which  this  indictment  is  founded.  The  legis- 
lature has  declared,  ^  That  a  man  must  be;^ 
on  sufficient  proof,  ajttainted  of  some  opea 
deed.''  Suffloent  proof  is  not  the  oath  of  one 
witness,  as  in  the  case  of  a  fe^ny;  for  the 
crime  of  high  tfeascm  is  in  itself  so  horrible, 
the  punishment  is  so  trcmendov^  and  the 
idea  of  oath  against  oath  (as  every  man  i» 
si^posed  to  h«ve  sworn  allegiaooe  to  his  so- 
vereign, therefore^  if  he  is  only  accused  by 
one  witness^  the  oath  of  the  accused  ought  Uk 
be  put  against  the  o«th  of  the  accuser)  occa- 
sioned a  verv  humane  kw^  made  in  verjr  good 
times,  that  aecUred  sufficient  proof  of  high 
treason  to  be  upon  the  oath  of  two  witnesses. 
Such  was  the  regard  for  life  in  the  reign  of 
king  William,  wnen  that  life  was  to  be  ukea 
away  on  a  cham  of  so  terrible  a  nature. 
The  legislature  therefore  interfered,  and  said, 
that  in  future  no  man  should  be  convicted  of 
high  treason  without  sufficient  proof,  which 
sufficient  proof  shall  be  on  the  oath  of  two 
witnesses^  Gentlemen,  are  there  two  wit- 
nesses to  any  one  overt  act,  that  is^  to  any 
open  act  ? 

As  to  the  last  charge  in  the  indictoaent, 
respecting  the  instmctions  that  are  supposed 
to  have  been  given  by  M.  De  la  Motte  to 
Lutterl(»h,  that  depends  solely  upon  the  testi- 
mony of  Lutterloh  himself.  If,  therefore, 
there  was  no  other,  witness  upon  this  indict- 
ment but  Lutterloh  only,  the  Court  would 
say  you  must  acquit  the  prisoner,  thoi^h  his 
credit  was  unexceptionable,  and  his  character 
above  reproach  ;  because  there  would  be 
wanting  tnat  second  witness,  which  the  Jaw 
has  thought  necessary  to  conviction,  fiut 
suppose,  W  a  iAoment,thatoQe  witness  alone 
was  sufficient  to  convict  a  person  of  high 
treason,  and  that  this  Act  of  king  William 
had  never  passed ;  even  then,  if  conviction 
had  depcnoed  solely  upon  the  testimoj^y  of 
Lutterloh,  the  Court  woukl  tell  you,  that  you 
must  acquit  M.De  la  Motte;  for,  upon  the 
testimony  of  an  accomplice,  the  law  will  not 
call  upon  the  accused^  to  make  a  defence  i 
their  lontships  would  tell  you,  that  if  the 
accomplice's  testimony  is  the  only  evidence 
against  him,  though  he  may  be  as  guilty  as 
t)ie  most  hardeneil  villain  that  ever  stood- ia 
tbb  court,  yet  you  must  acquit  him;  because 
to  the  unsupported  testimony  of  an  acooas* 
plice  naman  will  or  can  give  credit. 

But  who  is  Lutterloh  ?  If  you  credit  the 
picture  of  his  own  drawings  he  is  a  monstsi^ 
not  a  man ;  and  his  whole  life  has  been  a 
satire  on  the  vices  of  human  nature*  The 
unblushing  miscreant  on  his  oath  cooSenm, 
thathc  b^  been  guilty /of  treason  to  Fmce^ 


777] 


Jor  Hif^  TreiUfnu 


A.D.  1781. 


[778 


who  employed  him,  and  to  Budnidy  who 
jproiected  him :  he  has  been  gui^  of  trear 
c^ery  to  sir  Hugh  Pftlliacr.  (who  honourtd 
him  with  his  rriendship)  and  now  thirsts  ibii 
the  blood  of  his  benefadiot^  whose  unbomded 
liberality  has  raised  him  from  beggary  to  af> 
fluepce.  What  &  taie  has  he  told.  Ue  was  a 
Aweign  officer  -.  he  came  here  to  see  his  uncle> 
ifho  was  an  ambassador  that  never  existed, 
'from  a  coimtiy  as  yet  unknown.  This  am- 
hftssador  uncle  puts  his  hopefbl  nephew  to 
school  at  Winchester,  to  learn  the  laiaguage 
of  Mr.  Taylor,  a  clergyman:  thai  in  the  ac- 

auiring  the  laneqage,  he  likewise  obtained 
le  daughter  of  his  preceptor  in  marrii^: 
that  this,  uncle  ambassador  was  so  exaspe- 
rated at  his  nephew  for  contaminating  the 
purity  of  bis  blood,  and  for  degrading  himself 
Oy  marryi^  tlie  innocent  dsAighter  of  a  re- 
spectable English  clergyman,  ^^  he  turned 
hun  out  of  doorsy  dismissed  him  fiom  his  pre- 
sence; and  all  stoeams  of  hberalify  were  at 
once  shut  iiom  this  worthy  nephew,  who  be- 
fiure  had  been  the  favourite  object  of  his  ten- 
derness and^  care.  For  this  first,  this  onlv 
^honourableactof^Hsiife,  he  was  discanled, 
thrown  upon  the  world,  an  object  of  detesta* 
tion ;  and,  because  he  maniedf  a  young  lady 
of  &mil^  and  character,  he  is  reduced  to  the 
humiliating  necessit;^  of  offering  himself, 
thouffh  the  nephew  i]^  an  ambassaSoiv  to  mi- 
serable servitude.  Ue  becomes  the  servant 
of  a  captain  Somebody,  whom  nobody  knows, 
who  dismissed  him,  and  gave  him  the  best  of 
characters:  yet  this  character  docs  not  ap- 
pear, though  foreign  servants  always  have 
their  character,  or  certificate , as  they  call  it, 
m  writing.  Ue  next  lives  with  Mr.  Wildman, 
who  parted  with  him,  not  firom  disgust  at  his 
conduct,  or  suspicion  of  his  honesty;  for  he 
lived  with  him  more  as  a  companion  and 
friend  than  as  a  servant :  his  master 
^vas  so  extremely  oUentive  to  him,  even  to 
the  nicety  and  delicacv'  of  his  feelings,  that 
he  woukl  not  suffer  him  to  put  on  a  livery, 
but  dismissed  him  from  his  service^  rather 
than  insult  so  great  a  gentleman  as  the  ne- 
phew of  an  anibaasador^  by  asking  him  to 
wear  his  hvery.  Nay,  Mr.  vVildmsn  was  so 
ibnd  of  liim  and  hb  service,  that  he  lent  him 
15/.  to  set  up  a  chandler's  Hiop>  in  wluch  he 
continued  till  he  cheated  his  creditors^  and 
bid  them  defiance  by  an  act  of  insolvency. 
If  I  am  not  extremely  mistaken,  Mr.  V^d- 
man  will  tell  you  a  very  different  story.  Per- 
Iwps  it  will  not  be  permitted  to  hiai  to  tell 
you  upon  what  account  Lutterloh  was  dis- 
nussea  from  his  service ;  but,  if  he  dans  laoe 
the  accusation,  Mr.  Wildman  will  tell  him ; 
and  he  will  tell  you,  that,  to  Ar  froan  giving 
him  a  good  character,  so  far  firom  lendias;  him 
16/.  when  the  wretch  dared  afterwardsTny  an 
nnparalleled  effrontery,  to  come  to  him  for  a 
character,  his  answer  was,  ^  Get  out  of  ray 
si^t !  Uow  dare  you  approach  J^e !  Ask  me 
not  for  a  character,  but  toaok  me  for  my  le- 
nit^."    This  is  U^  story  Mr.  Wildyian  will 


tall  yt»;  and  if  it  is,  shall  the  life  of  a  gen. 
tlmiMD,  and  that  which  is  de^r  to  him,  his 
honour,  and  the  honour  of  his  familj^,  depend 
on  such  a  witness }    I  will  likewise  prove  to 

2 on  by  another  witness,  a  stmnger  to  M.  De 
I  Motte,  who  came  here  a  volunteer  in  the 
cane  of  innocence,  that  he  knew  Lutterloh  a 
cemmon  servant;  that  he  has  known  him 
many  years  as  an  adventurer,  though  it  was 
some  time  before  he  found  out  the  reality  of 
hiff character;  that  he  always  looked  upon 
han  as  a  prmecter,  but  lately  as  a  villain ;  for 
he  pioposed  to  him  a  scheme,  by  which  a 
large  fortune  was  ts  be  amassed,  by  going 
over  to  the  prince  of  Anspach  to  bi^  S5,000 
stand  of  anns,  which  were  to  be  conveyed  to 
Omgress,  and  to  be  paid  for  by  t>r.  Franklin  ; 
'and  that  he  had  desired  him  to  go  over  to 
France,  to  settle  the  contiact.  Lappel  will 
likewise  ttell  you,  that  Lutterloh  is  a  man  that 
he  would  not  trust,  that  he  could  not  believe, 
and  that  he  dares  not  credit. — Is  Roger  in 
court?   He  must  withdraw.* 

[Roger  goes  out  of  coiirt.] 

M^.  l^eckkam.  Gentlemen,  the  measure  of 
Lutterloh's  iniauity  is  not  yet  complete.  God 
foihid  that  I  snotud  say  a  word  that  any  wit- 
ness'might  lay  hold  of  in  a  cause  of  this  kind ; 
but  Roger  is  now  gone  out  of  court,  and  I  an» 
instructed  to  say-  he  will  tell  you,  that  Lutter- 
loh,  before  the  bill  was  found  by  the  grand 
junr,  told  him,  that  M.  De  la  Motte  was  a  very 
rich  man ;  tiiat  he  believed  there  would  be 
difficulty  to  find  the  bill :  perhaps  I  may  not 
be  accurate  in  the  words ;  but  tne  idea  that 
he  meant  to  convey  to  Roger  was,  that  it  was 
through  him,  and  through  him  only,  that  the 
bill  could  be  found ;  that  he  looked  upon  M. 
De  la  Motte  to  be  a  rich  man ;  that,  if  the 
bill  was  foundj  he  should  make  an  advantat^e 
of  it,  and  that  it  would  be  a  fine  thing  for  him. 
— ^Now,  if  he  said  any  thing  that  did  convey 
that  idea  to  Roger,  what  conclusion  can  you 
possibly  draw  Irom  the  testimony  of  Lutter- 
loh I  What  interest  could  Lutterloh  have,  if 
he  was  an  honest  man,  in  the  conviction  of 
M.  De  la  Motte  f  But,  if  he  thonght  that  by 
the  bill  being  fiMflid  he  might  work  upon  the 
hopes  or  fears  of  M.  De  la  Motte,  that  he 
might  hold  himself  up  to  him  as  the  arbiter 
of  nis'  life  or  death ;  then  I  can  put  a  mean^- 
ing  upon  the  vKHds  he  used  to  Roger,  when 
he  said  **  that  he  was  a  rich  man,  that  he 
should  make  an  advantage  of  it,  and  that  it 
wmdd  be  afitie  thmff  for  him."  But  I  trust 
you  will  disappoint  him,  if  he  expects  any  re- 
ward from  the  conviction  of  that  poor  gentle* 
man  at  the  bar,  at  least,  if  that  conviction  is 
to  arise  from  his  evidence. 

As  this  charge  of  hiring  and  employing 
Lutterloh  to  send  intelligence  to  the  court  of 
fVanoe,  is  not  proved  by  sipy  other  person,* 
you,  gMitlemen,  will  be  relieved  from  consi- 
dering tiiat  part  of  the  indictment.    Then  it 


779] 


21  GEORGE  III. 


Trial  ofF.  H.  De  la  Matte, 


[780 


will  depend  entirely  upon  those  letters  and 
papers  which  have  been  proddced  to  you  in 
evidence.;  but  before  I  comment  on  them, 
it  will  be  eitreroely  necessary  for  you  to  lend 
me  your  attention  in  respect  to  the  hand- 
writing.   The  only  evidence  now  produced 
against  M.  De  la  Motte.  (upon  which  that 
gentleman  is  to  live  as  he  nas  done,  with 
honour,  or  to  die  with  disgrace)  aHtiether 
dep^ds  upon  the  certainty  of  his  hand-writ' 
ing,  which  most  be  proved  to  you  by  two 
wraiesses.    Similarity  of  hand-writing  is  no 
evidence.    The  opinion  of  a  man,  from  see- 
ing a  hand  which  he  apprehends  to  be  writ- 
ten by  a  particular  person,  and  comparing 
that  with  another  paper  which  appears  to  be 
in  the  same  hand-wntiug,  the  Court  will  tell 
you,  is  no  evidence ;  because  the  lord  chief 
baron,  on  the  trial  of  Mr.  Francia,  said  it  was 
no  evidence .-  because  lord  chief  justice  Holt, 
who  was  the  greatest  as  well  as  the  best  of 
judges,  confirmed  the  same  doctrine,  by  say- 
ing comparison  of  hands  cannot  be  evidence. 
You  will  pleas^  therefore,  to  attend  minutely 
to  the  proof  ot  the  hand-writing.    Don't  be 
misled  ny  the  common  causes  that  you  hear 
tried  at  nisi  priuf,  where  the  slightest  proof 
of  the  hand-writing  is  deemed  sumcient ;  be- 
cause^  when  a  man  biings  an  action  on  a 
promissory  note  given  by  the  defendant,,  al- 
most any  evidence  of  belief,  and  having  seen 
him  write,  will  be  sufficient ;  for  it  is  not  to 
be  supposed,  that  a  person  who  brings  an 
action  to  recover  that  money  of  the   de- 
fendant, b^  guilty  of  forgery ;  but  it  is  to  be 
presuiped,  that  the  defendant  does  it  to  delay 
the  payment  of  a  just  demand,  or  with  the 
hopes  that  the  pla'mtiff  will  not  be  ^able  to 
prove  his  hand-writing ;  therefore  the  courts 
admit  of  very  slight  evidence.    But  consider 
the  difference  between  a  promissory  note  for 
five  pounds,  and  a  gentleman's  life  c  consider 
how  very  easy  it  is  to  mistake  the  hand-writ- 
ing of  one  man  for  another :   consider  how 
possible  it  is  that  a  man  may  really  believe, 
that  the  writing  which  is  produced,  is  actually 
written  by  him  whom  he  has  often  seen  to 
write ;  and  yet  he  may  be  d^ved.    In  the 
case  of  Francia,  a  gentleman  was  called  upon 
the  Uial,  a  Mr.  Barclay,  who  was  an  under 
secretary  of  state,  or  solicitor  of  the  Trea- 
sury, (I  don't  know  which;)  he  told  the 
Court,  (though  he  had  seen  Francia  write  for 
upwards  of  an  hour,  and  was  attending  to 
him  while  he  was  writing,)  when  he  was 
asked  whether  that  was  Francia's  hand-writ- 
ing, '<  that  he  cpuki  not  affirm  it"    Now 
Francia  was  ac<[mtted.  > 

I  must  mention  another  remarkable  case, 
that  happened  within  these  few  weeks,  to 
shew  how  cautious  you  should  be  in  the  ad- 
mission of  testimon)r  upon  a  belief  of  a 
man's  hand-writing;  it  is  a  hd  within  my 
own  knowled{;e  ;  and  I  call  upon  the  Attor- 
ney and  Soliaior  General  to  vouch  for  the 
truth  of  the  anecdote  I  am  goin^  to  state. 
It  is  not  m  weeks  ag0|  Uiat  m  a  case  in 


the  Exchequer,  the  Attorney  General  thought 
it  necessary  to  fix  some  criminalitv  upon  the ' 
defendant,  for  whom  I  was  counsel ;  and  that 
was  attempted  by  the  production  of  a  petition 
signed  by  the  defendant,  and  which  was  said 
to  be  of  his  hand-writing.    The  Attorney  Ge- 
neral thought  it  proper  to  produce  that  peti- 
tion, and  he  called  a  gentleman  to  prove  it,  s 
gentleman  by  ^e  name  of  Bate.    1  hope  you 
know  him,  because  then  you  will  not  suppose 
that  I  mean  to  throw  any  imputation  upon 
him;  for  he  is  a  respectable  old  gentleman, 
in- an  honourable  ana  tcit  prc^tabie  office  in 
the  Custom-house;   and  ne  was  called  to 
prove  the  supposed  hand-writing  of  the  de- 
fendant to  this  petition,  and  signature  at  the 
bottom  of  it.    I  really  pitied  him  when  he 
was  sworn :  I  wished  that  he  might  not  swear 
it;   I  guarded  him  repeatedly  against  it;  I 
desired  him  to  forbear.    I  told  him  the  de- 
fendant sat  by  me,  who  would  (if  his  testi- 
mony was  admitted)  contradict  him  upon  his 
oath ;  that  I  would  produce  the  very  person 
who  had  written  it.    But  he  still  persevered 
' — ^honestly  penevored— conscientiously  per-' 
severed :  but  he  incautiously  persevered ;  for 
he  persevered  in  swearing,  not  only  that  he 
had  a  perfect  knowledge  of  the  defendant's 
hand-writing,  but  that  ne  veiily  believed  the 
petition  was  bis  hand. 

Gentlemen,  I  appeal  to  both  the  law  offi- 
cers (I  am  sure  tney  will  do  me  justice)  I 
proffered  the  defendant  to  be  sworn  as  a  wit- 
ness, to  prove  that  it  was  not  his  hand-wrii- 
ins;  and  I  actually  called  the  clerk  of  the ' 
defendant,  who  was  accidentally  in  court  (for 
I  had  no  idea  that  such  a  species  of  evidence 
would  be  given  against  the  defendant)  I  call- 
ed the  clerk,  who  sud,  that  while  he  was  at 
the  Custom-house,  one  of  the  officers  had  ad- 
vised him  to  write  a  petition,  and  present  it  to 
the  board ;  that  it  was  a  common  thing  to 
write  a  petition  in  the  name  of  another ;  and 
that  it  did  not  signify  who  wrote  it,  if  it  wbs 
written  in  the  name  of  the  petitioner ;  thait 
he  wrote  it  himself,*  and  signed  the  name  of 
the  defendant  at  th^  bottom  of  it,  without  his 
knowledge.  I  am  sure  those  gentlemen  be- 
lieved thetlerk ;  and  I  am  sure  the  judge  be- 
lieved him ;  and  there  was  not  a  man  in  court 
that  disbeheved  him ;  yet  Mr.  Bate  had  sworn 
that  he  verily  believed  it  to  be  the  defendant's 
haiM^writing.* 

Suppose  you  had  been  the  jury :  suppose 
that  piece  of  paper  had  been  proauced,  not 
to  determine  upon  a  dosen  of  hats  (whidi  I 
think  was  the  question  there)  but  to  deter- 
mine upon  the  life  of  M.  De  la  Motte  :  sup- 
pose  upon  that  evidence,  ^ven  by  a  man  of 
respectable  character,  given  bva  man  of  that 
age  that  he  soon  must  be  called  upon  to  an- 
swer fot  tiic  crime  of  perjury,  if  ne  know- 

ii  I  '  -■  ■  ...  ■ 

*  Concemuig  proof  of  1iiad-writui|^,  see  vol.  9» 
p.  864,  tiw  ObM  of  Alnraoii  Sidney;  vol.  10,  p. 
7S6,  SpveoU'f  OtW}  v^  tt,  p.  183,  CmooT  tha 


781] 


fir  Higi  Treason, 


A.  D.  1781. 


in^y  committed  it ;  sufypose,  upon  that  testi- 
mony,  you  should  have  thought  yourselves 
Ji>ound  m.  your  conscience  to  nave  found  a 
verdict  for  the  crown,  and  that  M.  De  la 
Motte  had  been  executed  (which  he  certainly 
will  be,  if  he  is  convicted ;)  how  many  wake* 
fuf  nishts  would  you  have  had,  how  many 
heart^r^ddng  days  would  you  experience, 
when  you  y^ere  told  you  had  condemned  a 
man  to  death  upon  the  testimony  of  a  person 
who  was  mistaken,  and  that  the  writins  was 
not  the  hand-writing  of  De  la  Motte,  but  of 
Lultcrloh !  Consider  the  truth  of  that  case ; 
and  then,  for  your  own  sakes,  judge  with 
caution;  receive  with  care  the  testimony 
that  is  given ;  and  do  not  $00  hastily  deter- 
mine upon  the  life  of  a  fellow  creature. 

Now,  gentlemen,  let  me  see  how  this 
hand- writing  is  proved  ?  Lutterloh  has  sworn 
that  he  knows  tne  hand-writing  of  M.  De  la 
Motte.  I  have  made  so  many  observations 
already  upon  Mr.  Lutterloh,  that  I  mean  not 
to  trouble  vou  with  more :  but  this  I  will 
say,  that  if  Mr.  Lutterloh  was  an  angel  of 
light,  bis  testimony  alone  could  not  convict ; 
therefore  it  is  necessary  that  some  other  wit- 
ness should  be  called  to  the  proof  of  M.  de  la 
Motte's  hand-writine. 

Whom  do  they  Gul  for  that  purpose  ?  Mr. 
Bauer  is  called,  as  a  second  witness,  to  con- 
firm his  worthy  friend  Mr.  Lutterloh.  Ob- 
serve, gentlemen,  that  by  law^I  am  not  wan- 
dering from  my  point,  though  at  present  I 
may  appear  to  do  it— but  by  law  it  is  abso- 
lutely necessary,  that  the  list  of  the  witnesses 
ahould  be  jgiven  to  the  prisoner  ten  days  be- 
fore the  trial.  It  is  something  singular,  that 
in  the  first  list  of  witnesses  the  name  of  Bauer 
was  not  mentioned;  and  if  M.  De  la  Motte 
had  fortunately  been  tried  at  the  last  sessions, 
JBauer  would  not  have  been  a  witness  against 
turn.  I  do  not  mean  to  say  but  that  it  was 
an  act  of  favour  that  he  was  not  tried ;  I  n>« 
ceive  it  and  acknowledge  it  as  sudi :  but  it 
is  something  sineukr  that  Bauer,  the  bosom 
friend  of  Lutterlon,  who  carried  a  letter  from 
Lutterloh  to  M.  De  la  Motte,  who  tells  you 
that  he  carried  a  letter  from  M.  De  la  Motte 
to  Lutterloh,  who  tells  you  that  he  knows  his 
hand-writine — it  is  singular  that  this  ready 
witness  for  tne  crown  should  never  have  com- 
municated his  knowledge  to  Mr.  Chamber- 
layne,  who,  I  will  venture  to  say,  siAed  him 
to  the  bottom;  (he  had  not  done  his  duty 
without  it :)  and  yet,  with  all  his  sagacity  (and 
there  is  not  a  more  sag&cious  or  worthy  man 
living)  yet,  with  all  his  saeicity  and  inaustry, 
it  was  never  suspected  by  nim,  it  was  never 
suggested  by  Lutterloh,  that  Biauer  knew  any 
thing  of  the  hand-writins  of  M.  De  la  Motte. 
I  am  most  certain  that  Lutterloh  in  this  in- 
stance was  sincere ;  that  for  once  he  has  re- 
garded truth :  for  he  did  not  tell  Mr.  Cham- 
berlayne  that  Bauer  knew  any  thing  of  his 
hand  writing.  I  believe  it  to  be  true,  and  I 
believe  it  from  the  wretched  testimony  given 
by  Bauer  him^lf.    Heavens !  is  a  man  to  be 


[78f 


convicted  upon  the  testimony  of  Bauer  ?  Put 
every  thing  you  have  heard  out  of  the  ques- 
tion for  a  moment,  and  let  this  gentleman 
stand  or  fall  upon  the  evidence  of  Bauer. 
Suppose  this  case  could  and  did  turn  only 
upon  his  testimony^  what  saj-s  Bauer  ?  "  Yes 
it  is  his  hand-writing;"  not  'I  believe;'  he 
is  above  sheltering  hunself  under  his  belief 
*  it  is'  his  hand-wnting :  at  least,  so  says  the 
interpreter.  I  am  very  sorry  the  gentleman 
would  not  permit  me  to  talk  a  little  Eng^ 
lish  to  him :  if  I  had,  he  would  not  have  pass- 
ed his  examination  quite  so  easy,  as  through 
the  medium  of  an  interpreter.  What  nice 
distinctions  he  can  make,  even  in  the  tuni, 
the  formation,  of  a  letter !  He  takes  two  or 
three  letters  from  the  rest :  «<  No,  I  will  not 
swear  to  these,  but  I  can  to  the  others."  If 
all  that  he  says  is  a  perjury^  and  yet  he  means 
to  gain  credit  with  you,  is  it  possible  for  a 
man  to  devise  a  better  method  than  to  say  he 
believes  positively  some  are.the  hand-writing, 
and  that  others  as  positively  are  not  ?  It  is 
something  whimsical :  but  look  at  all  these 
papers ;  compare  them  with  your  own  eyes, 
and  see  whether  the  one  hand  is  not  so  like 
the  othef,  that  the  man  that  could  swear  posi- 
tively to  some,  might  swear  as  positively  to 
all.  How  does  it  l^ppeu,  that  Lutterloh  haa 
sworn,  that  those  very  letters  are  of  the  hand- 
writing of  M.  De  la  Motte,  which  Bauer 
swears  are  not ;  and,  on  the  contrary,  Lutter- 
loh swears  that  other  letters  are  not  written 
by  M.  De  la  Motte,  which  Bauer  positively 
swears  are  of  his  hand-writing  i  Can  you,  will 
you  punish  a  man  with  death,  upon  the  opi- 
nion of  two  witnesses  who  contradict  each 
other,  and  can  coincide  in  nothing?  Ought 
you  not  to  be  extremely  careful  indeed  how 
you  receive  this  evidence,  and  watch  such 
witnesses  with  most  jealous  eyes? 

Thus  much,  gentlemen,  is  most  certain, 
that  Bauer*s  knowledKO  of  M.  Deja  Motte's 
hand  is  so  imperfect,  flbat  there  arc  three  dif- 
ferent papers  which  he  verily  believes  are  not 
the  hand-writing  of  M.  De  la  Motte,  though^ 
as  to  similitude,  upon  comparison  you  can 
find  no  difference^  and  though  Lutterloh  has 
sworn  that  he  believes  tliem  to  be  so  ? 

Now  permit  mc  to  ask,  upon  what  autho- 
rity is  Bauer's  testimony  founded?  It  is 
foimded  upon  a  very  weak  authority  indeed. 
But  first  of  all  permit  mc  to  observe  the 
manner  in  which  he  gave  his  evidence.  If 
I  take  him  right,  he  said  he  came  to  England 
only  six  months  a^;  and,  as  soon  as  he 
came,  he  lodged  in  Charles-street ;  yet  after- 
wards, in  the  course  of  his  examination,  he 
confessed  he  lodged  in  another  street  so  long 
ago  as  last  August :  consequently  he  swore  to 
a  thing  not  true,  because  he  had,  in  fact,  been 
in  England  eleven  months  instead  of  six,  and 
did  not  lodge  first  in  Charles-street,  but  in 
another  place.  He  had  a  wish  to  have  passed 
himself  off  to  you  as  a  merchant  livine  in 
Charles-street ;  nut,  when  I  interrogated  nim 
to  his  merchandise,  he  dwindles  down  to  a 


783] 


21  GEORGE  III. 


Trial  ofF.  H.  De  U  Matte, 


178* 


deric^  ami  confesses  that  he  had  nerer  exer- 
cised any  other  office  than  the  menial  office 
of  a  clerk.  He  told  you^he  knew  Lutterioh 
some  years  ago ;  that  his  acquaintance  ripen- 
ed into  friendship  upon  his  last  comine  into 
England ;  and  that,  on  the  «5th  of  De- 
cember, he  saw  M.  De  la  Motte  for  ttie 
first  time  in  his  life;  that  at  that  time 
he  broueht  a  letter  from  Lutterioh,  staid  a 
very  little  while,  and  did  not  sec  him  write; 
that  he  came  again  the  next  day  but  one,  and 
stud  as  little  a  while;  that,  two  days  af^er 
that,  he  came  again,  which  brings  it  to  the 
f9th  of  December.  And  now  you  will  find 
dates  a  little  material.  On  the  29th,  he,  for 
the  first  time,  saw  M.  Dc  la  Motte  write. 
Why,  what  did  he  write  ?  He  says,  he  asked 
him  whether  he  had  been  at  Plymouth  or 
not,  how  Ions  he  had  been  at  Wickham,  and 
whether  he  nad  been  at  Portsmouth  with 
Lutterioh?  To  these  questions  he  saw  M. 
De  la  Motte  write  down  his  answers ;  that 
is,  he  was  in  the  room  when  he  heard  M.  De 
la  Motte  ask  these  questions,  and  was  in  the 
room  when,  as  he  supposes,  M.  De  la  Motte 
wrote  down  these  answers :  but  he  does  not 
aJBect,  he  does  not  dare  to  say,  that  he  looked 
over  the  writing,  or  saw  the  words  which  M. 
De  la  Motte  had  thus  written  down.  Now 
would  you,  or  could  you  believe  it  possible, 
that  Mr.  Bauer  should  know  the  hand-writ- 
ing of  M.  De  la  Molle  from  being  in  the 
same  room,  and  seeing  him  write  answers  to 
questions  tliat  had  been  put  to  him  ?  It  does 
not  appear  that  he  ever  looked  on  that  paper 
after  it  was  written.  What  should  he  look  at 
it  for?  I  do  not  believe  there  is  a  single 
word  of  truUi  in  what  he  has  said.  It  is  nie 
most  foolish  of  all  foolish  stories.  What  could 
induce  M.  De  la  Molte  to  ask  those  ques- 
tions ?  and,  having  abked  them,  why  should 
he  reduce  them  into  writing?  Whether  he 
bad  been  at  Plymouth,  or  at  Portsmouth, 
must  be  totally  immaterial  to  M.  dc  la  Motte. 
But,  Did  you  ever  see  him  write  afterwards  ? 
— "  Yes,  I  saw  him  write  some  days  after." 
Unfortunately,  I  am  afraid  the  esact  time  was 
not  taken  down,  when  M.  De  la  Motte  went 
to  Wickham :  but  you  will  please  to  recollect, 
from  the  evidence  of  a  Mr.  Atkins,  for  I  will 
not  suffer  Lutterioh  to  mend  his  evidence, 
that  he  saw  M.  De  la  Motte  at  Wickham ; 
and  in  fact  he  was  taken  up  upon  the  5th  of 
January.  Now,  some  days  after  the  29th  of 
Decemoer  must  bring  it  too  far  into  January, 
and  M.  De  la  Motte  must  have  been  at  Wick- 
ham at  the  time  Bauer  pretends  he  saw  him 
write  the  last  time  in  London.  If  I  mistake 
in  point  of  time,  consider  my  situation,  and 
pardon  my  errors :;  I  have  much  to  think  on, 
and  much  to  say ;  this  gentleman's  life  in  my 
hands,  without  assistance  to  correct  my  mis-  < 
takes,  or  time  to  refer  to  the  evidence  I  have 
taken  down.  But  what  did  M.  Dc  la  Motte  write 
the  second,  which  was  the  last  time?  Why, 
a  letter,  says  he,  to  Mr.  Lutterioh ;  and  I  Saw 
him  put  a  oank-note  into  the  letter*    J  asked 


him  what  De  la  Motte  had  said  in  that  letter: 
his  answer  was.  "^  I  cannot  tell ;  I  did  not  see 
that.**  If  he  md  not  see  what  was  in  the  in- 
side of  the  letter,  has  he  a  soffident  know- 
ledge of  the  man's  hand-writing  to  tell  the 
character  in  which  these  words  were  written^ 
when  in  fiu:t  he  did  not  see  ibe  woids  that 
those  characteis  composed?  Is  not  that  suffi- 
cient to  blast  the  testunony  of  any  man?  but 
is  it  not  abundantly  sufficient  to  blast  the  tes- 
tinony  of  the  friend  of  Lutterioh  ?  If  it  rest- 
ed upon  Bailer's  testimony  abne,  is  it  possi- 
ble you  coidd  hesitate  a  moment  about  your 
verdict  ? 

Let  us  see,  then,  how  much  the  case  is  im^ 
proved  by  the  next  witness,  a  veiy  reputable, 
a  very  respectable  gentleman,  M.  Le  Cointe. 
He  says,  that  No.  11,  which  is  the  letter  to 
the  commandant,  is  not  his  hand.  He  says, 
**  I  have  seen  him  write  very  seldom :  I 
have  doubts  about  No.  16,  and  doubts  about 
No.  80."  Then  there  is  a  note  shewn  him, 
which  Lutterioh  has  told  you  was  written  by 
M.  De  la  Motte, except  only  one  or  two  wonb 
filled  up  by  him.  Observe  what  Le  Cointe 
says  upon  this  note !  He  says,  **  The  words 
'  ready  money'  I  believe  to  be  the  hand-writ- 
ing of  M.  De  la  Motte ;  but  I  do  not  believe 
the  rest  is."  Here  then,  you  see,  is  the  same 
disagreement  as  there  was  between  Bauer 
and  Lutterioh;  for  there  are  in  this  note 
twenty  or  thirty  words,  besides  *  ready  money/ 
which  Lutterioh  swears  are  the  hand-writing 
of  M.  De  la  Motte,  except  one  or  two  wonfi 
inserted  by  himself.  M.  Le  Cointe  as  posi- 
tively believes  they  are  not.'  Surely  this  ob- 
servation, founded  as  it  is  in  truth,  wiU  make 
a  very  material  impression  on  your  minds. 
Observe  likewise,  that  M.  Le  Cdnle  isaaked^ 
how  ofben  he  han  seen  him  write.  He  sajs, 
that  he  has  seen  M.  De  la  Motte  write  his 
signature  different  times ;  but,  except  in  one 
instance,  he  has  never  seen  him  write  anj 
thing  but  his  signature.  Now  suppose,  gen- 
tlemen, for  the  sake  of  aigumenrt,  M.  Le 
Cointe  had  positively  sworn  that  he  had  never 
seen  M.  De  la  Motte  write  any  thing  but  his 
signature ;  and  I  will  take  that  to  be  eitiier 
IrAkerman  or  De  la  Motte :  do  you  think  it 
possible  that  any  gentleman  could  swear  with 
such  certainty, as  to  autliorise  you  to  take  awaj 
the  life  of  a  man  upon  his  knowledge  of  the 
hand-writing  ?  If  he  had  only  seen  him  write 
his  name,  he  woidd  not  have  seen  him  write 
more  than  half-ardozen  letters  in  the  alphar- 
bet.  Would  you  believe  a  man  could  swear 
with  that  degree  of  credit  that  he  ought  ?  I 
Ho  not  mean  to  throw  any  imputation  upon 
Le  Cointe ;  I  dare  say  he  believed  it.  But 
will  you  believe,  that,  from  seeing  a  gentle- 
man write  nothing  but  his  signature,  it  is  pos* 
sible  to  swear  to  a  whole  letter?  Has  Mr.  Le 
Cointe  seen  him  write  any  thing  else  ?  He 
says,  '<  I  rather  apprehended  he  did  once 
give  me  his  address  at  Hampstead ;  but  I  am 
not  certain  of  it.''  If  he  is  not  certain,  it  caa 
be  no  evidence.    You  would  not  receive  Buch 


785]  ^r  High  Treason. 

testimony  in  a  question' of  property ;  there- 
fore you  will  not  think  of  receiving  it  when 
lli.  De  la  Motte's  life  is  at  stake,  ile  adds, 
that  ''  he  once  wrote  a  note  in  my  shop.'* 
What  are  the  contents  of  the  note?  what 
were  the  words  of  ii  ?  "I  don't  know."  The 
same  observation  I  made  upon  Bauer.  I  do 
not  mean  to  cla^s  Bauer  and  Le  Cointe  in  the 
same  scale  of  credit :  I  am  sorry  to  see  him 
in  such  company  as  Bauer  and  Lutterloh, 
€ven  in  a  court  of  justice:  but  the  same  ob- 
servation, I  say,  will  hold  here ;  he  can  recol- 
lect the  characters  which  form  the  words, 
when. he  does  not  recollect  the  words  them- 
selves. I  perfectly  well  know  why  Mr.  Le 
Cointe  believes  this  is  the  hand-writing  of  M. 
De  la  Motte ;  not  from  the  letters  he  has  seen 
him  write,  but  from  the  notes  he  has  received 
in  his  name.  '^  Sir,  do  you  form  your  judgment 
fmm  these  notes  alone  P'  If  he  had  answered 
in  the  affirmative,  the  x:ourt  would  have  lold 
him  that  was  not  evidence,  because,  if  he  had 
never  seen  him  write,  though  he  had  received 
ten  thousand  note^  jtrom  him,  it  would  be  no 
|»roof  of  his  hahd-writino;.  I  assert  this  pro- 
vositi<m  to  be  law;  aiMl  I  am  sure  I  shall  not 
D^  contradicted.  Suppose  he  has  received 
notes  from  M.  Pe  la  Motte ;  is  that  to  be.  evi- 
dence to  convict  ?  Might  not  his  servant  have 
written  these  notes  ?  If  that  was  to  be  evi- 
dencc,  every  man  of  fashion  in  this  town 
might  have  the  spurious  notes  of  their  servants 
palmed  upon  them  for  their  own,  as  they  will 
not  fati^e  themselves  with  writing  common 
notes  ot  civility  and  invitation. 

Put  these  notes  out  of  the  question,  and 
see  then  whether  my  observations  upon  Le 
Cointe's  belief  are  not  foimded  in  good  sense; 
one  of  which  iias  been  upon  the  signature, 
consisting  of  m  letters ;  another,  upon  the 
address  at  Hampstead,  which  he  does  not 
know  he  ever  »ve  him;  and  the  third,  upon 
a  note  he  saw  nim  write,  but  is  a  stranger  to 
every  syllable  of  the  omtents. 

I  find  the  law  officers  of  the  crown,  of 
whose  ability  and  sagacity  you  can  have .  no 
doubt,  from  the  high  situation  in  wb^h  they' 
are  placed,  assisted  as  they  are  by  the  fint 
crimmal  lawyer  in  England,  have  thought  the 
evidence  against  M.  De  la  Motte,  upon  the 
hond-writii^,  insufficient  to  convict  him ;  and 
therefore  another  witness  was  produced  for  the 
purpose  of  shewing  that  there  was  a  partner- 
ship between  him  and  Waltrond.  A  partner- 
ship in  treason,  by  which  the  act  of  one  should 
convict  the  other,  is  a  new  idea,  reserved  for 
these  enlightened  times*  For  this  purpose 
they  call  Elizabeth  Hannet,  to  prove  that 
Waltrond  and  M.  De  la  Motte  fuMi  been  seen 
together  inher house ;  imagimii^from  thence, 
that  this  species  of  evidence  (if  Waltrond  had. 
in  your  qpinion,  conveyed  all  this  criminal 
^rrespondence  to  France)  would  operate  so 
Strongly  upop  your  minds,  as  to  induce  tou  to 
find  a  veraict  against  M.  De  la  Motte,  tnough 
they  really  believed  you  were  not  justified  to 
W^that  verdict  upon  the  testioioi^y  of  the 

VOL.  XXL 


A.  D.  178L 


L786 


hand-Writing  by  Lutterloh,  Bauer,  and  Le' 
Cointe.  But  is  there  any  evidence  of  this 
ooimection  ?  Even  Elizabeth  Hannet.  that  is 
expressly  called  for  the  purpose,  afler  Hunting 
round  the  court,  and  looking  in  De  la  Motte's 
face  without  knowing  him^  retires  without 
giving  any  evidence.  Was.it  a  material  part 
of  tlieir  case  that  a  coimection  should  be 
shewn  between  Waltrond  and  M.  De  1^  . 
Motte  ?  Yes !  their  Judgment  told  them  that 
they  could  not  convict  him  without  that  con- 
nection being'  proved ;  and,  by  calling  Mrs^ 
Uannet,  they  admit  that  the  connection  was 
not  proved  before.  Then,  gentlemen,  in  con- 
"firmation  of  my  own  observations,  1  have  the 
opinion  of  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  Gene- 
ral, that  the  proof  of  the  hand-writing  was 
too  weak  to  convict;  that  Lutterloh's  evi- 
dence could  not  gain  credit;  that  a  connec- 
tion between  Waltrond  and  De  la  Motte  must 
be  substantiated  by  Mrs.  Hannet,  who  did  not 
even  know  the  face  of  M.  De  la  Motte.  Jt  is 
strange,  that^  material  as  they  thought  this 
fact  of  connection,  in  which  I  must  bee  leave 
to  differ  from  them,  they  have  calleu  Mrs.  - 
Hannet,  who  cannot  prove  it;  and  they  have 
not  called  the  wife  of  Waltrond^  who  is  one 
of  their  witnesses,  and  now  waiting  in  th^ 
next  room  to  be  examined ;  whose  name  was 
deUvered  to  M.  De  la  Motte  in  the  orianal 
list  of  witnesses.  How  happens  it  that  Mr& 
Waltrond,  the  wife  of  Mr.  Waltrond,  that 
they  had  subpcenaed  as  a  witness,  that  they 
gave  us  notice  they  would  produce,  lyhose 
testimony  we  expected  to  have  received— how 
happens  it  that  she  has  not  been  called  to 
prove  that  fact  which  they  themselves  thought 
so  important?  Whether  M.  De  la  Motte  was, 
or  was  not,  connected  with  Waltrond,  this 
woman  could  have  told  you  with  precision.  I 
trust,  this,  observation  will  have  its  weight.  I 
wish  to  know  likewise  why  Mrs.  Lutterloh  is 
not  called ;  not  the  wife  of  that  abandoned 
villain,  but  a  lady  of  character  and  fortune, 
the  niece  of  the  late  bishop  of  London,  whom 
I  expected  to  have  seen  here  as  a  witness ; 
because  Mrs.  Lutterloh's  name  is  likewise 
given  as  one  of  the  witnesses  for  the  crown, 
and  she  has  been  waiting  all  day  to  give  her 
evidence.  I  would  ask  the  gentlemen  em- 
ployed for  the  crown,  whether  they  think  it 
Deoomes  the  dignity  of  their  high  station,  in  a  ^ 
cause  of  hfe,  to  keep  hack  any  witness  which 
they  have  given  us  notice  they  will  produce, 
especiallv  when  that  witness  is  of  an  unex- 
ceptionable character  ?  This  is  not  af  contest 
between  two  counsel  for  victory ;  but  it  is  a 
contest  of  innocence  against  guilt,  of  life 
against  death,  and  honour  against  disgrace. 
Would  it  not  have  become  them  to  have  pro- 
duced those  witnesses,  that  you  might  have 
heard  from  their  mouths  what  evidence  they 
could  give  ?  Undoubtedly  they  would  not  have  . 
given  Mrs.  Lutterloh  the  trouble  to  attend/  . 
they  would  not  Imve  given  us  notice  that  she 
was  to  be  a  witness,  unless  they  thought  she 
could  give  evidence  that  was  material.  I  agd 
3  £ 


7ST]' 


21  GEORGE  III. 


Trial  ofF.  H.  De  ta  Matte, 


[78* 


how  to  presume,  that  they  have  kept  her  back 
because  she  would  have  given  materhkl  testi- 
mony for  the  prisoner,  and  testimony  that 
you  must  have  believed,  because  the  credit  of 
that  lady  stands  as  fair,  and  as  high,  as  the 
credit  of  any  lady  in  the  universe.  If  it  is 
possible  for  liuman  wit  and  sasacity  to  frame 
an  apology  for  keeping  back  Mrs.  Waltrond 
and  MrsTLutSferloh,  I  am  sure  those  gentle- 
men have  abilities  to  do  it.  I  implore  them 
now  to  call  those  two  witnesses ;  I  dare  them 
to  it.  Let  those  ladies  tell  the  court  and  juiy 
what  is  the  nature  of  the  evidence  they  have 
communicated  to  Mr.  Chamberlayne ;  let 
them  tell  you,  upon  their  oaths,  what  evidence 
they  can  give.  I  shrewdly  suspect  their  evi- 
dence would  be,  that  they  know  the  hand- 
writing of  M.  D^  la  Motte,  and  that  tlic 
hand-writine  sworn  to  by  the  detestable  Lut- 
terloh,  by  that  suspicious  witness  Bauer,  and 
that  ignorant  witness  lie  Cointe,  is  not  the 
hand-writing  of  De  la  Motte.  I  shrewdly 
suspect  that  hand-writing  to  be  a  forgery,  a 
forgery  of  that  wretch  who  entered  into  a 
conspiracy  to  cheat  two  kingdoms,  and  who 
acknowlctlged  an  attempt  to  cheat  M.  De  la 
Motte,  by  substituting  an  imaginary  friend, 
that  he  might  set  two  thirds  of  the  plunder 
of  the  nations  ne  was  betraying.  These 
things  merit  your  attention,  and  I  trust  you 
will  give  them  all  possible  weight. 

In  respect  of  those  two  letters  produced 
from  the  post-office,  one  of  them.on^  can  be 
received  m  evidence.  Those  letters  come 
under  the  charge  of  sending  letters  to  certain 
subjects  of  the  French  king.  The  first  letter 
<vas  stopt  at  the  post-office. '  I  am  very  ready 
to  admit,  that,  if  the  letter  was  sent  and  deli- 
vered at  the  post-office,  it  would  be  a  suffi- 
cient act  of  sending  it  to  certam  subjects  of 
the  French  king,  not  meaning  to  give  up  the 
observation  upon  the  hand-writing.  The  se- 
cond letter  that  is  produced,  sir  Stanyef  Por- 
ten  swears  to  the  reality  of;  but  he  does  not 
swear  that  he  ever  received  that  letter  from 
the  post-office :  he  says,  Uie  cover  has  been 
lost.  It  is  astonishing  to  me,  that  with  all 
his  ability,  care  and  assiduity,  he  should  have 
lost  that  which  is  alone  material  in  this 
indictment ;  for  that  great  man  has  lost 
the  cover,  without  which  this  letter  cannot 
be  admitted  in  evidence.  Be  it  De  la  Motte's 
hand- writing,  for  the  sake  of  argumeht ;  be 
it  the  letter  that  is  now  produced  in  evidence, 
that  -sir  Stanyer  Porten  had  given  to  Mr. 
Chamberlayne ;  if  it  does  not  appearthat  that 
letter  was  sent  to  a  certain  subject  of  the 
French  king,  it  will  operate  nothing.  I  will 
admit,  that  it  might  be  directed  to  a  certain 
subject  of  the  French  king ;  but  if  it  was  not 
sent,  or  delivered,  it  is  not  criminal.  Suppose 
a  letter  highly  criminarwas  taken  from  the 
writer  by  force,  when  he  was  going  to  destroy 
it.  Shall  that  rise  up  in  judgment  against 
him  which  he  wishea,  and  would  have  de- 
stroyed,  if  it  had  not  been  taken  from  him  ? 
It  does  not  appear  that  this  letter  ever  was  in 


the  postoffice ;  for  sir  Stanyer  Porten  only 
tells  you,  that  he  found  it  in  the  secretary*^ 
office.  His  finding  it  there  shews  a  Strang 
iieglect  somewhere :  but  we  are  not  astoni^o- 
eid  at  public  negligence ;  it  has  long  been  too 
common.  The  letter  being  found  in  the  of^ 
fice,  shews  they  thought  it  of  very  little  ina-' 
portance :  and  let  me  add  too,  they  thought 
of  very  little  importance  the  otiier  letters  tnat 
had  been  sent ;  for,  though  they  do  not  appear 
in  evidence,  yet  of  so  little  importance  were 
those  letters  which  Mr.  Stewart,  with  such' 
assiduity,  used  to  be  riding  backwards  and 
forwards  to  London,  to  shew  to  sir  Stanyer, 
and  even  abler  men — of  so  little  importsmce 
were  they,  that  they  sealed  them  up  i^n,' 
and  sent  them  to  France  laughing  at  the  in- 
telligence they  conveyed ;  for  the  letters  were 
merely  intelligence  of  that  which  the  London 
Courant  and  Greneral  Advertiser  had  before 
communicated  to  the  public. 

Gentlemen,  I  will  trouble  you  but  with  s 
word  more :  I  will  for  a  moment  suppose,  that 
which  I  trust  you  never  will  believe,  that  all 
these  papers  which  have  been  produced  in 
evidence,  and  sworn  to  by  the  witnesses  as 
the  hand-writing  of  M.  De  la  Motte,  were 
really  written  by  him :  are  the  contents  of 
those  letters  treasonable  ?  have  they  conveyc^d 
any  treasonable  intelligence  to  tne  enemy? 
For  it  is  not  sending  a  ballad  to  the  enemy 
that  is  treason ;  it  is  not,  as  the  indictment 
charges,  sending  to  the  enemy  that  Darby 
commanded  the  Aeet  at  one  time,  and  Hardy 
another;  for,  God  knows,  it  isveiy  imma- 
terial to  France  whether  Darby  or  Hardy  com- 
mands: that  is  not  the  intelligence  that  b 
comprehended  under  the  article  of  treason. 
These  letters  differ  extremely'  from  any  that 
have  been  produced  in  a  court  of  justice  in 
high  treason.  In  tbe  case  of  Francia,^  who 
was  a  foreigner,  the  charge  against  him  was 
not  only  for  sending  intelligence  to  the  ene- 
my, but  for  pressing  the  enemy  to  send  arms, 
ammunition,  and  money,  to  supply  thefebeb 
in  this  counUy  in  suoporting  a  reoellion  that 
was  then  eommencea,  or  in  the  act  of  com- 
mencing. That  was  a  charge  of  a  very  (fif- 
ferent  nature ;  but  even  in  uat,  Francia  was 
acquitted.  In  the  case  of  Hensey,t  one  of 
the  letters,  and  that  which  operated  to  his 
conviction,  was  pressing  the  enemy  to  make 
an  invasion  upon  this  country.  I  am  in- 
clined to  think  that  was  the  material  part  of 
the  evidence  upon  which  that  indictment 
hinged ;  that  it  was  the  part  upon  which  the 
jury  save  their  verdict;  because  I  observe 
that  u)rd  Mansfield,  when  he  summed  up  to 
the  jury,  savs,  ^  in  one  of  his  letters  he  had 
even  invited  the  enemy  to  invade  his  native 
country,  and  to  briuK  war  and  destruction 
into  the  heart  of  it.''  That  is  the  letter  that 
lord  Mansfield  particularlv  lavs  his  finger  ont 
Observe,  likewise,  what  lord  Mansfidd  says» 

'*  See  vol.  15,  p.  898. 
t  Vol.  19,  p.  1341. 


^80] 


Jhr  High  Treason, 


**  that  the  suilt  of  this  offence  addes  from  the 
nature  of  the  correspondence,  which  is  calcu- 
lated to  hetray  the  secrets  of  his  king  and 
country  to  the  etoemy."  Now,  gentlemen, 
remember  that  it  was  not  for  conveying  in- 
telligence only,  but  because  Uensey  conveyed 
correspondence,  the  nature  of  which  was  cal- 
culat^i  to  betray  the  secrets  of  his  king  and 
tountry.  Adopt  lord  Man^eld's  rule  in  the 
present  case.  I  am  now  supposing  that  all 
these  letters  are  proved,  and  are  of  M.  De  la 
Motte's  hand-Writing.  Is  the  printed  list  of 
Haslar-hospital  a  secret?  Is  it  a  secret  that 
there  were  certain  vessels  lost  and  damaged 
in  a  storm  in  the  Westrlndies }  The  moment 
the  news  came  to  England,  it  was  publicly 
known ;  and  charity  vras  universally  tnrowing 
in  its  mite  to  the  unfortunate  sufferers  at  the 
time  that  this  letter  is  supposed  to  be  written, 
which  was  to  convey  that  important  intelli- 
gence to  France,  that  was  known  to  every 
Hian  in  England,  that  was  known  to  every 
man  in  Europe.  But  there  is  a  third  species 
pf  intelligence ;  there  is  an  account  of  com- 
modore Johnstone's  squadron  lying  at  Spit- 
head.  Is  it  possible  that  any  man,  who  could 
read,  could  be  ignorant  of  it?— Had  not  com- 
modore Johnstone's  squadron  been  lying  for 
weeks,  for  months,  waiting  for--Ood  knows/ 
what — waiting  for  seamen,  soldiers,  provisions 
and  orders?  And  yet  this  is  the  important 
secret  that  has  been  conveyed  to  the  enemy, 
for  which  this  unfortunate  gentleman  is  to 
forfeit  his  hfe !  In  a  word,  supposing  that  it 
is  his  hand-writing,  supposing  that  it  is  suffi- 
ciently proved ; .  then,  I  say,  it  is  not  that 
kind  of  mtellijgence  that  ought  to  put  a  man*s 
life  in  hazara  I  will  admit,  if  you  please, 
that  it  is  wrong,  that  it  is  improper;  because 
no  man  that  comes  into  this  country,  and 
fives  under  the  protection  of  our  laws,  ought 
thus  to  demean  himself.  But  this  is  not  a 
question  of  political  propriety,  or  of  moral 
rectkude :  it  is  not  whether  M.  De  hi  Motte 
has  acted  with  the  utmost  purity  and  inno- 
cence ;  whether  he  has  acted  with  the  most 
perfect  honour :  but  the  question  is,  whether 
Be  has  so  acted  as  to  forfeit  his  life  for  trea- 
son ?  If  it  is  criminal,  let  me  tell  you,  M.  De 
la  Motto's  punishment  has  not  been  trifling : 
that  poor  gentleman  has  now  been  confined 
in  a  Qungeon  for  seven  months.  When  I  say 
a  dungeon,  gentlemen,  I  ou^t  to  say  a  tower : 
he  has  been  confined,  if  you  will  permit  me 
to  play  upon  the  words,  in  a  tower,  in  the 
Tower,  for  seven  months ;  four  of  which,  de- 
nied^the  use  of  pen,  ink,  and  paper,  and  the 
sight  of  any  human  being  except  his  keeper. 
For  the  last  three  months  his  attorney  and 
his  counsel  have  had  access  to  him,  because 
the  law  commands  it.  I  trust,  therefore,  you 
will  think,  if  this  gentleman's  crime  is  short 
of  treason,  that  his  punishment  ha^  been  only 
short  of  death. 

Gentlemen,  I  had  almost  forgot  to  open  to 
you  some  evidence  which  I  am  desired  to 
jtttKiiice.    I- do  not  know  that  it  is  necessary ; 


A-  D.  1781,  fTfJbi 

but  I  wish  to  shew  you,  that  what  I  have 
said  of  M.  De  la  Motte  is  not  m^  imagination, 
nor  the  imagination  of  the  prisoner.  Some 
part  of  his' history  has  been  proved  to  you  by 
the  witnesses  already  examined.  I  mean  to 
shew  you,  that  he  has  dealt  in  those  articles 
which  Roger  mentioned,  who  laid  out  300/.' 
for  him  in  the  space  of  four  or  five  months 
for  prints  only.  Now,  as  they  have  called 
Roger,  I  am  to  presume  he  is  a  witness  tliat 
deserves  credit ;  oecause  it  would  be  too  much 
to  suppose  they  have  called  none  but  bad, ' 
and  kept  back  all  the  good  witnesses.  I  will 
not  rank  him  with  Lutterloh  and  Bauer,  but 
with  Mrs.  Lutterloh  and  Mrs.  Waltrond. 
I  will  call  to  you  two  priht-scllers,  who 
will  tell  you  they  have  often  supplied  M.  De 
la  Motte  with  prints ;  not  common  prints  that 
were  to  be  a  cloak  to  iniquity,  but  tnat  he  was 
most  attentive  to  the  prints  that  he  par*  • 
chased ;  that  he  gave  the  highest  prices  for 
proof  prints,  which  shews  he  meant  them  for  - 
the  purpose  of  sending  abroad,  and  not  for 
the  puipose  of  screening  an  illegal  correspon- 
dence ne  was  carrying  on ;  for  that  might  - 
have  been  done  as  well. with  the  common 
prints,  as  with  the  finest  impressions.  I  shall 
call  these  witnesses  to  confirm  Roger's  credit 
and  testimony,  if  the  gentlemen  attempt  to 
impeach  the  credit  of  their  own  witness,  either 
by  observation  or  evidence. 

I  will  no  longer  trespass  on  ypur  patience ;  * 
but  I  implore  you  to  recollect,  that,  if  these 
papers  convey  such  secret  intelligence  as  con- 
stitute the  crime  of  treason,  the  intelli^nce  ' 
must  be  proved  to  te  in  the  hand-writmg  of 
M.  De  la  Motte  by  two  witnesses,  to  whom 
you  can  give  credit.  Remember  the  mistake 
of  that  respectable  gentleman  I  mentioned  to 
you  in  the  cause  in  the  Exchequer.  Impute 
the  same  mistake  to  the  frailty,  if  not  to  the 
wickedness  of  human  nature,  in  the  present 
case.  If  you  think  it  possible  that  these  wit- 
nesses may  have  maae  an  involuntary  mis- 
take, take  care  that  you  do  not  make  an  in- 
tentional mistake,  by  stamping  an  authority 
on  their  credit  by  your  unequivocal  beliet* 
.which  must  deprive  of  honour,  and  of  life, 
that  poor  friendless  foreigner  at  the  bar. 


EviDBWCE  FOa  THE  PlUSONEA. 

Pictor  Mar.  Picot  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Peckham^ 


^ 


What  are  you? — A  pruit-seller  and  en- 
graver. 

Have  you  ever  sold  any  prints  to  M.  De  la 
Motte ?~I  sold  some  to  Mr.  Roger  for  M.  De 
la  Motte. 

Were  the  prints  you  sold  him  valuable,  and 
of  the  best  impression,  or  the  refuse  prints  of 
your  shop?— oome  of  the  best  imprebsions, 
and  duplicates  of  them. 
-  To  wnat  amount  'were  the  extent  bf  your 
transactions? — I  c^not  tell;  I. always  was 
paid  ready  cash :  it  was  about  100/.  I  believe. 


I  ^ 


791] 


21  6E0RGE  m. 


Cum^eavmnrA  by  Mr.  Miant^  Gemeral 

You  are  a  tiadetman  that  keeps  no  cash- 
Ux>k,ItakcH?-No. 

When  was  it  you  sold  these  prints?— In 
July,  September,  and  November,  1780;  but  I 
cannot  tell  exactly:  as  I  was  always  paid 
ready  cash.  I  took  no  memorandum  of  it 

Do  you  know  a  Mr.  Wahrond  ? — ^I  saw  him 
once  at  my  house  with  Mr.  Boeer. 

You  never  »aw  M.  Dc  laMotte  at  your 
bouse  ?— Never  in  my  life. 

WiUiam  laden  sworn. 
Eiamined  by  Mr.  Ttckk§m. 

Are  you  a  print-seller? — ^I  am. 

Have  you  ever  sold  any  prints  to  M.  Dc  la 
Motte  ?— Yes ;  and  they  were  the  best  prints 
that  could  be  procured.  I  sold  him,  as  near 
as  I  can  take  from  my  books,  to  the  amoant 
of  93/.  lOf.  6d.  between  Biarch  10th,  1779, 
pjoA  Dec.  a9th,  1780. 

Do  you  know  of  any  other  articles  he  used 
to  send  abroad^  Dirmmgham  goods,  or  trin- 
Jccts,  or  any  thing  of  that  kind  r— No. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Solicitor  General. 

You  sell  a  great  many  maps,  I  believe  ?— 

J  do. 

Look,  and  see  whether  that  is  one  of  your 
bills?  (shewing  the  witness  one).— Yes,  this 

is  my  bill. 

What  is  that "  Atlantic  Neptune  ?" — Some 
maps,  that  are  published  by  order  of  the  lords 
pf  the  Admiralty,  of  America. 

Are  they  reckoned  accurate  ?— They  are. 

Do  they  particularly  mark  out,  and  with 
liccui^,  the  ports  pf  America? — ^They  are 
reputed  so. 

Mr.  Peckham,  They  ««  sold  publicly  in 
your  shop  ? — ^Ycs; 

It  was  not'a  secret  to  the  lords  of  the  Ad- 
fliiralty? — ^No. 

Mr.  Solicitor  General.  Look  at  that  other 
bill;  that  is  one  of  yours,  I  believe  ?— Yes, 
it  is. 

I  see  the  last  article  is,  three  charts  of  the 
Atlantic  Ocean  ?— Yes. 

What  part  does  it  comprehend? — It  is  a 

feneral  chart  to  exhibit  the  two  continents  of 
Europe  and  America^ 

Are  they  reputed  charts  of  authority? — It 
is  tip  best  of  tnc  kind. 

1  ask  you  only  for  form's  sake,  whether 
these  charts  do  or  not  delineate  accurately 
the  coasts  of  Europe  as  well  as  America? — 
They  are  understood  so,  as  far  9^  that  small 
size  can  do. 

There  is  one  article  of  51/.  do  ypu  recollect 
y^hether  that  article  included  maps,  or  prints 
pnlv? — ^I^  refers  to  that  bill  ^tljust^iow 
)iaq  in  my  hand. 

Boger  called  into  Court. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Peckham, 


You  appeared,  1  betieve^  before  the  grapd 
juiy?— laid. 


TrudqfF.H.DetaMcUe,  PSB 

Do  you  know  Mr.  Lottcfloh  ?'-Tet.  I  was 

with  him.  % 

Have  you  known  LmterWk  for  any  time  f-^ 

I  have  seen  him  three  or  fimr  times»  once  at 

Charing-crosB,  and  oooe  at  Plvnuiith. 

Did  any  conversatiaa  pass  between  you  and 
Lutterk>h  before  you  went  into  tfaa  grand 
jury  room,  and  when  you  came  out  firans 
them,  respecting  M.  De  la  Motte?— Yes,  and 
I  told  that  story  directfy  to  MrJ  Goss,  who 
was  my  governor,  I  was  aa  struck  with  it.. 

What  was  the  conversation  that  passed  be- 
tween you  and  Lutterlc^  that  youioU  to 
your  friend  Mr.  Goss?— I  observed  Mr.  Lat- 
terk>h  was  quite  km  and  affected;  Mr.  Goat 
said  he  kxdced  very  affected :  soon  after,  Lnt^ 
terloh  came  and  spoke  to  me  in  French;  he 
sakl,  that  "  this  was  a  very  bad  piece  of  work, 
and  a  bad  a£btr  for  us.''  I  said.  You  do  not 
lose  nothii^,  but  1  do ;  it  is  more  unhaj^ 
for  me  than  can  be  fjr  any  body.  He  saac^ 
^*  I  am  very  sony,  but  M.  De  la  Motte  wiUbe 
hanged."  I  said,  You  came  here  to  find  the 
biU;  uU  the  grand  jury,  the  judge,  the  jury, 
all  justice.  He  said,  **  Don't  you  know  the 
ministry  will  be  very  clad  to  have  their  vesi* 
geance  for  the  death'  of  major  Andr6  in  thb  ^ 
1  said^  How  can  you  say  so?  what  character 
you  give  of  the  ministxv !  If  they  did  knoar 
that,  they  would  take  him  up  for  taking  their 
character ;  and  I  would-  not  speak  to  him. 
When  Lutterloh  was  come  \^k  from  the 
grand  jury,  he  said,  **  I  know  veev  well  the 
bill  will  be  found.'^  Because  for  what^said  I  ? 
Ue  said*  <^  Because  I  swear  any  tlung,  and  to 
the  writing  too  :*'  he  said,  he  had  done  it  be- 
fore the  grand  jury. 

Court.  What  did  he  say  he  had  done  be- 
fore the  grand  jury  ? — A.  That  he  had  swoie 
to  the  hand-writing.  I  said  it  was  a  shame ; 
I  donH  know  who  was  next  to  me  ;  I  take  ik 
it  was  Katclifie:  I  said,  there  is  some  man 
that  deserves  any  punishment.  He  said,  ^  he 
was  sure  that  it  would  be  found.''  I  said, 
''  How  do  you  know  that?  If  the  lull  ia  not 
found,  you  cannot  make  it  found  yourself." 
"  Oh,''  said  he,  **  I  have  told  enough,  and  I 
can  swear  it  was  his  writing."  I  never  spoke 
no  more ;  but  after  that  we  went  to  chnner, 
and  at  the  dinner  he  kept  such  discourse  I 
was  ashamed  to  hear. 

What  was  it  ?--I  don't  remember. 

Dkl  he  say  any  thing  else  to  you?— I  do 
not  remember  that  he  spoke  any  thing  more 
at  the  same  time :  at  dinner  he  said,  '*  I  know 
very  well  I  could  work'  better  than  him  ;  I 
should  be  jglad  he  would  be  hanged^  because  I 
could  work  by  myself  a  great  d«il  better  than 
we  do  together.^' 

Cross-eiamined  by  Mr.  Attorney  General, 

IjUtterloh  was  no  ftiend  of  yours? — ^I  never 
knew  him  to  be  no  friend. 

Was  this  conversation  in  Freneh  ? — ^Part  in 
French^  and  fNut  in  EneUsh.  I  never  heard 
lim  speak  French  but  tnal  day. 

I  belieye  he  never  spoke  Fr^ich  before  pof 


193]  for  High  Treason. 

nnoe :  he  was  visited  with  a  gift  that  day, 
that  he  lost  in  a  moment  again  ?-^I  promise 
you  he  can  speak  French  penectly  well. 

Ja$per  Lappel  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Peckham, 

Do  you  know  Mr.  Lutterloh  ? — Yes  ;  I 
have  known  him  from  eight  or  ten  years  ago. 

What  situation  was  he  in  when  you  first 
knew  him  ? — A  servant.  I  knew  him  afler- 
wards  keeping  a  chandler's  shop  in  Castle- 
street,  Leicester-fields. 

Have  you  ever  had  any  conversation  with 
him  ahout  your  going  to  France? — About  his 
going  to  France,  he  made  a  kind  of  proposal 
to  go  to  France,  as  he  said  there  was.  a  prince 
in  Germany  (I  have  forgot  his  name)  that 
wanted  money,  and  that  he  had  several  thou* 
sand  stand  of  arms,  and  he  would  endeavour 
to  sell  them  for  him  to  the  American  Con* 
gress,  and  would  advise  with  Dr.  Franklin 
about  it ;  he  was  to  write  to  Dr.  Franklin,  to 
see  if  they  could  agree  for  them  for  the  Ame- 
ricans. 

You  did  not  enter  into  this  scheme  with 
him  ? — I  did  not. 

Is  he  a  man  you  would  trust,  credit,  or  Ce- 
Meve,  after  ten  years  knowledge  of  him  ? — I 
should  rather  doubt. 

Is  he  a  man  of  sood  or  bad  character  ? — I 
know  no  further  of  his  character  than  what  I 
have  stated. 

.Cro8»-examined  by' Mr.  Mtarney  General, 

How  long  is  it  since  your  acquaintance 
ceased  ? — The  exact  time  I  cannot  tell. 

Mr.  Wildman  s^rom. 
Examined  by  Mr.  PecUam. 

I  believe  Mr.  Lutterloh  lived  some  years 
ago  with  you  as  a  servant  ?^He  was  my  ser- 
vant in  the  years  1769  and  1770;  about  a 
year  and  a  half,  I  believe,  in  the  whole. 

When  you  dismissed  him  from  your  ser- 
vice, did  you  give  him  a  character  ?-i-He 
never  aaked  one,  nor  did  I  give  him  one.  He 
lefi  me,  I  think,  but  I  cannot  be  accurate  to 
the  time,  in  177 1,  or  the  ktter  end  of  1770. 

I  can  only  ask  you  a  general  question, 
which  ia,  if  he  had  applieoto  yoa  for  a  chsk 
racter,  should  you  have  j^ven  hni  one  ? 
.  SoUdiar  General,  I  object  to  that  question ; 
it  is  a  very  improper  one. 

Mr.  Peckham.  From  what  you  know  of  this 
man,  what  is  his  chamcter,  good  or  bad  l-^A, 
While  he  lived  with  me,  an  accident  happen- 
ed ;  but  he  certainly  liehaved  very  well,  and 
that  accident  I  had  no  grounds  to  impute  to 
him. 

How  came  he  to  leave  you  ?— I  had  follow- 
ed the  accident  up  as  far  *as  I  could  ;  but  I 
«euW  not  trace  it  at  alL  I  was  determined  to 
discharge  him,  not  upon  that  ground,  nor 
with  anv  imputation  of^that  sort  to  him  y^^etk 
I  <h8Char|ged  him. 

you  did  not  tell  Hm  so  ?— No ;   neither 


A.D.  178L 


[794 


told  him  80^  nor  reported  it ;  for  I  had  no 
grounds. 

If.  that  accident  had  not  happened  to  you, 
should  you  not  have  kept  him?— 1  liked  him 
extremely  well  as  a  servant. 

If  that  accident  had  not  happened  to  you, 
shouki  you  not  have  kept  him?— i  rather 
think  I  should  not. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Solicitor  General. 

Did  you  afterwards  lend  Mr.  Lutterloh  l5/> 
— ^In  the  settlement,  when  I  discharged  him, 
there  might  be  a  balance ;  but  certainly  I  lent 
him  nothing  aflerwards. 

Mr.  Peckham,  We  have  been  told  you  lent 
him  15/.  upon  his  note.  Is  that  true  .>— il. 
There  might  be  a  balance ;  I  have  endea^ 
voured  to  recollect  it,  but  could  not :  I  mean, 
he  might  be  in  my  debt,  and  I  might  take  a 
note  for  it;  but  I  can't  speak  with  any  cer- 
tainty. 

Mr.  Peckham,  He  has  said,  that,  some 
months  afler  he  left  you.  you  lent  him  15/. 
upon  his  note?— -^.  Notning,  to  my  recollec- 
tion, passed  with  him  about  money  fi^om  the 
time  that  I  discharged  him. 

You  have  no  recollection  of  it  ? — No. 
*  I  do' not  know  whether  you  recollect  that 
he  was  afterwards  in  a  shop  ? — I  recollect  to 
have  heard  it. 

End  of  the  Evidence  for  the  Prtftmer. 


Solicitor  General,  Gentlemen  of  the  Jury ; 
It  becomes  now  my  duty  to  address  vou,  upon 
the  subject  of  the  manner  in  which  the  pie. 
sent  prosecution  has  been  supported,  and  the 
way  in  which  the  prisoner  has  oeen  defended. 

I  shall  make  but  a  very  few  observations 
upon  the  very  long  defence  of  my  learned 
fnend ;  not  from  any  incivility  or  disrespect 
towards  him,  but  because  it  appeared  to  me 
then,  as  it  dees  now,  upon  the  best  rteollec- 
tion  I  have  of  the  observations  he  has  made, 
that,  notwithstanding  the^r  employed  a  very 
consklerable  part  of  your  time,  yet  they  have 
very  little  relation  to  this  cause ;  though  some 
part  of  the  argument  related  to  other  causes, 
the  history  of  which  I  am  unacquainted  with, 
the  history  of  which  he  dkl  not  explain  to 
you,  but  upon  which  I  can  safely  pronounce, 
that  t|iey  had  nothing  to  do  with  this  cause. 
I  do  not  mention  this  as  any  reproach  to  the 
learned  gentleman ;  it  certainly  was  his  duty 
to  offer  what  arose  out  of  the  case ;  and  when 
he  fbund  himself  tempted  to  deviate  intQ  ; 
matters  that  had  no  relation,  nor  any  con* 
nexion  with  this  cause,  he  did  it  because  he 
thought  he  might  thereby  withdraw  your 
judgment  and  your  attention  from  the  merits 
ofwiscadse. 

One  or  Xvro  things,  however,  Gentlemen,  it 
is  my  duty  to  take  notice  of. 

And  first,  the  old  and  common  observa-   i 
tions  made  by  wa^*  of  exciting  some  compas- 


795] 


21  GEORGE  UL 


Trial  oJF.  H.  Be  la  Motle, 


[796 


lion  towards  the  furisoner.  And  very  largely 
indeed  mv  learned  friend  explained  to  you, 
tfaat  whicn  is  perfectly  new  to  me,  though  I 
bave  had  the  honour  of  practiang  in  the  court 
firom  which  he  supposes  those  partialities 
to  be  derived— that  partiality  was  a  principle 
of  justice ;  and  that,  because  the  present  pri- 
soner is  a  foreigner,  jrou,  in  judging  upon  the 
accusation  against  him,  wiU  act  honourably 
if  you  act  partially;  that  b,  if  you  judge  ac- 
i|ording  to  the  arguments  which  the  counsel 
luged  to  you,  not  founded  in  fact,  nor  sup- 
ported by  reason,  if  you  dismiss  the  evidence 
m>m  your  minds,  and,  upon  considerations  of 
indulgence  and  favour  to  a  foreigner,  you 
shall  pronounce  that  foreigner  innocent, 
when  you  would  have  convicted  one  of  your 
countrymen,  that  such  a  conduct  jis  honour- 
able ;  that  is,  that  it  is  honourable  to  break 
your  oaths,  to  determine  against  that  evi- 
dence according  to  which  you  are  sworn  to 
determine.  I  conceive  it  would  be  very  dis- 
honourable. I  ask  of  you  nothing  more  than 
^s,  that  you  should  determine  according  to 
the  evidence ;  not  for  him  because  he  is  a 
foreigner,  not  against  him  because  he  is  a 
foreigner ;  but  according  to  the  true  merits  of 
the  case  laid  before  you,  and  according  to  that 
oath  which  I  am  sure  you  have  not  forgotten, 
though  my  learned  firiend  seems  to  have  for- 
gotten you  have  taken  one :  and,  according 
to  that  oath,  and  the  evidence  beifore  you,  I 
have  not  the  least  doubt  you  will  determine. 
I  must  beg  you  to  forget  a  little  the  lamen- 
tations over  the  misfortunes  of  this  unhappy 
man,  as  he  is  called ;  I  cannot  agree  that  ne 
is  unhappy  in  the  sense  in  which  the  counsel 
wishes  you  to  consider  him ;  that,  being  in- 
nocentf  he  is  in  danger  of  being  oppressed. 
What  marks  there  are  of  oppression,  or  what 
proof  of  innocence,  I  need  not  take  up  your 
time  in  considering;  but  I  will  venture  to 
say,  that  there  is  nothing  unhappy  in  his 
situation,  unless  it  be  unhappy  to  commit 
great  crimes,  and  to  be  detected  in  the  com- 
ipission  of  them  ;  to  be  brolight  to  prosecu- 
tion, and  to  be  in  danger  of  punishment.  If 
Uiis  denominates  a  man  unhappy,  then  he  is 
properly  to  be  pronounced  unhappy :  but  if  it 
he  addressed  to  your  compassion,  tliat  there 
is  any  thins  particularly  distressful  and  af- 
flicting in  his  condition,  except  as  ha  is  a 
person  accused,  and  a  prisoner,  there  is  no; 
foundation  for  it :  for,  helpless  and  destitute 
as  this  foreigner  is  of  all  assistance  and  sup- 
p6rt,  he  has,  you  see,  the  advantage  of  the 
ablest  counsel  that  the  English  bar  affords ; 
that  counsel  assisted  with  an  attorney,  with 
witnesses,  with  everv  aid  tliat  a  man  in  that 
condition  can  possibly  have ;  and  if  the  most 
illustrious .  of  our  countrymen  was  to  be 
called  into  judgment  for  a  similar  crime,  he 
could  not  possibly  have  any  one  aid  or  sup-; 
pprt,  of  which  Uv&  man  you  are  now  tiding  is 
destitute. 

I  will  not  resort  to  any  arguments  to  move 
passions  of  a  different  sort,  because  X  would 


have  you  actuated  by  none,  but  fonn  voaf 
judgment  unon  the  evidence  only.  This 
country  would  be  in  an  unhappy  condition, 
indeed,  if  men  protected  by  its  laws,  deriving 
every  comfort  and  happiness  which  the  con- 
stitution of  this  ouui^try  afibrds  to  those  who 
live  under  it,  could  with  impunity  commit  the 
crimes  with  which  the  prisoner  is  charged, 
and,  when  those  crimes  are  proved  upon 
them,  could  escape  punishment,  owing  to  any 
false  and  mistaken  compassion  :  then  all  the 
efibrts  which  we  are  making  to  resist  the 
dreadful  combination  of  our  numerous  ene- 
mies, might  be  in  one  moment  frustrated, 
and  defeated  by  such  intell^nce  as  the  pre- 
sent prosecution  charges  ^e  prisoner  witli 
having  either  commumcated,  or  endeavoured 
to  communicate,  to  the  enemies  of  this  king- 
dom. 

Some  obser\'ations  have  been  made,  re- 
flecting, in  a  peculiar  way,  on  the  conduct  of 
this  prosecution :  1  am  very  sorry  they  were 
made,  because  it  obliees  me  to  give  an  an-' 
swer  to  it,  which  I  should  otherwise  not  have 
thought  it  becoming  me  to  give ;  it  forces  me 
to  express  an  opinion  of  my  own,  which, 
standing  here  as  an  advocate,  I  ought  not  to 
wish  should  have  an^  influence  with  you. 
God  forbid,  that  the  hfe  of  any  man  should 
ever  depend  upon  the  opinions  of  the  counsel 
in  a  cause  !  but  my  upmion  I  must  give  to 
you,  because  I  have  no  other  answer  to  make, 
but  that  very  complete  one,  to  a  charge 
which  is  brought  against  those  who  conduct 
the  prosecution.  The  learned  gentleman  told 
you  of  two  personsf  a  Mrs.  Lutterloh,  and  a 
Mrs.  Waltrond,  whose  names  were  inserted 
in  a  list  given  to  the  prisoner,  as  the  wit- 
nesses who  might  be  produced  against  him, 
and  which  persons  have  not  been  called.  I 
need  not  desire  your  attention  to  any  other 
reasons  for  not  examinipg  those  witnesses, 
than  that  one  is  the  wife  of  Waltrond,  who 
has  acted  so  considerable  a  part  in  this  busi- 
ness, and  who  is  qow  fled  to  France,  to  escape 
the  punishment  which  would  have  awaited 
him  in  this  country ;  and'  the  other,  Mrs. , 
Lutterloh,  is  an  aunt  to  the  witness  whose 
testimony  you  have  heard.. 

Is  it4he  business  of  counsel  to  produce  ten 
witnesses  to  prove  that  which  is  sufficiently 
proved  by  two,  three,  or  four?  and,  if  a 
counsel  is  of  opinion,  as  I  am  most  clearly, 
that  every  point  we  could  prove  by  fair  evi- 
dence has  most  clearly  been  evinced  by  the 
witnessc^s  that  have  been  examined,  would  it 
not  be  wasting  time  ?  It  was  my  opinion  that 
it  would,  and  theref<(>re  I  declined  examining 
those  witnesses.  They  were  very  properly 
prepared  to  be  examine'd,  because  no  person 
can  foresee  what  will  be  the  evidence  of  the 
witnesses ;  and  therefore  it  is  proper  not  to 
rest  upon  one,  two,  or  three,  hut  to  have 
others  ready,  if  either  the  health  or  the  me- 
mory of  thpse  we  first  produce  should  happen 
to  render  them  incapable  of  discharging  tbat 
duty  th^t  is  expected  bom  them^    My  learo^ 


997] 


Jor  High  Treason* 


friend  supposed  tho^e  witnesses  were  not  pro- 
duced by  us,  because  their  le^tiuiony  would 
have  been  in  favour  of  the  prisoner.  The 
gentlenaan  whom  he  examinea  told  him  they 
are  attending;  and  though  he  argues  upon 
the  supposition  of  those  witnesses  being  in 
possession  of  facts  which  would  be  of  advan- 
tage to  his  client,  his  own  judgment  informs 
him  that  it  is  safer  for  that  client  that  tiiose 
witnesses  should  not  appear,  for  he  does  not 
call  them.  This,  I  conceive,  you  will  think  a 
sufficient  answer  to  that  imputation  upon  the 
prosecution.  You  have  heard  a  great  deal 
firom  my  learned  friend  relative  to  the  nature 
of  the  crime ;  and^  as  it  is  now  extremely 
late,  I  shall  endeavour  to  explain  to  you  very 
shortly  the  crime  with  which  the  prisoner 
stands  charged,  and  then  apply  the  evidence 
that  has  been  given  to  prove  tmit  charge,  and 
shall  take  some  notice  of  the  efforts  of  my 
learned  friend  to  obviate  the  weight  of  that 
evidence. 

You  are  now  trying  the  prisoner  for  the 
ciiroe  of  high  treason,  which  is  described  in 
two  different  wa^s :  one  is  what  the  law  calls 
compassing  or  imasining  the  death  of  the 
king ;  the  other,  adhering  to  the  enemies  of 
the  kingdom.     The  nature  of  the  crime  in 
general  is  giving  intelligence,  or  endeavour- 
mg  to  give  intelligence,  to  the  enemies  of  the 
kingdom.    Now,  whoever  gives  intelligence 
to  the  enemies  of  the  kingc&m,  is  judged  by 
law  to  imagine  the  king's  death,  because  he 
endeavours  to  assist  the  enemies  of  the  king, 
and  of  the  kingdom,  in  jpursuing  their  war 
and  hostile  attempts  against  this  kingdom, 
one  of  the  ^eat  ends  of  which  is  certainly 
the  destruction  of  the  sovereign  upon  the 
throne ;   and  therefore  the  law  has  wisely 
again  and  a^in  decided,  that  (for  instance 
to  take  one  met)  sending  a  letter  of  intelli- 
gence to  an  ^nemy  at  war  with  this  coiintiy, 
IS  an  open  act,  proving  the  imagination  of  the 
death  of  the  king  in  the  mina  of  him  who 
sends  it    Whoever   sends   intelligence,   or 
employs  another  person  to  send  intelligence, 
to  tne  country  at  war  w^ith  this,  does  adhere, 
in  other  words,  does  aid  and  assist  the  ene- 
mies of  this  kingdom ;  and  it  makes  no  dif- 
ference in  the  crime,  whether  the  intelligence 
actually  reaches  the  enemy,  or  whether  the 
aslsistance  intended  to  be  given  is  completed  : 
he  who  does  an  act  in  order  to  assist  the 
enemy,  completes   his   guilt,  whether   the 
enemy  receives  that  assistance  or  not.    My 
learned  friend  mentioned  the  case  of  Dr. 
Hehsey,  who  was  tried  for  a  similar  crime. 
"Why  he  referred  to  it  I  don*t  exactly  know : 
there  are  four  lines  iuithe  report  of  that  case, 
which  most  clearly  comprehend  the  law  upon 
this  subject :    "  Letters  of  advice  and  cor- 
respondence and  intelligence  to  the  enemy. 
to    enable  them   to   annoy   us   or   defend 
themselves,  written  and  sent  in  order  to  be 
delivered  to  the  enemy,  are.  though  inter- 
cepted, overt  acts  of  both  tnese  species  .of 
treason;''  that  is,  of  imagining  the  death. of 


A.  a  1781;  lf9S 

the  king,  and  adherhig  to  the  enemies  of  the 
kingdom.  That  law  is  as  old  as  the  icings 
dom.  Vou  heard  a  statute  of  the  ^5th  of 
Edward  3  alluded  to,  which  is  commonly 
called  the  Statute  of  Treasons :  but  that  sta- 
tute made  no  law ;  it  only  declared  what  the 
law  was,  and  restrained  the  crime  of  treason, 
which  was  before  more  extended,  and  de^ 
clared  that  certain  acts,  which  before  that 
statute  were  treason,  should  not  be  so  any 
longer.  I  need  not  refer  to  law  books  to 
prove  this,  because  you  cannot  for  a  moment 
doubt  that  what  I  have  described  to  be  trea- 
son must  be  treason.  How  can  any  state 
exist,  how  contend  with  an  enemy,  if  it  is  to 
suffer  within  its  own  bosom  men  employed 
to  give  intelligence  of  all  its  operations,  to 
those  with  whom  it  is  at  war  ?  One  man  so 
employed,  may  often  times  do  much  more 
mischief  to  the  country  of  whose  operations 
he  gives  intelligence,  than  an  army  of  50,000 
men.  It  is  true,  as  my  learned  friend  tells 
you,  some  overt  act  must  be  pjroved.  So 
long  as  the  designs  of  a  man  rest  in  his  own 
breast,  and  don't  proceed  into  action,  they  are 
not  the  subject  of  this  law :  but  if  he  does 
any  act  shewing  that  imagination  of  the  death 
of  the  king,  or  which  act  has  a. tendency  to 
aid  the  enemy,  in  pursuance  of  this  intention^ 
he  is  giulty  of  high  treason:  and  the  only 
question  you  will  have  to  decide  here,  is  whe^ 
ther  any  such  act  is  proved,  that  either  one 
act  is  proved  by  two  witnesses,  or  two  acts 
proved  one  by  one  witness,  and  another  by 
another. 

These  are  the  general  observations,  antf 
the  only  ones,  as  it  seems  to  me,  that  I  am 
under  any  necessity  of  making  to  you.  Let 
me  now  state  to  you  the  particular  acts  that 
are  -  here  stated  by  the  prosecution,  as  cds- 
stituting  the  crime  of  the  prisoner.  And  I 
think  they  may  be  reduced  to  four. — ^The 
first  is,  sending  intelligence,  with  an  inten- 
tion that  it  Should  be  delivered  to  the  ene- 
my.— ^The  second  is,  collecting  materials,  in 
order  to  send  intelligence. — ^A  third  is,  hiring 
Ratcliffe,  and  paying  him  for  the  jpurpose  of 
conveying  that  inteuigeBce. — And  a  fourth 
is,  employing  and  hirmg  Lutterloh  to  gain 
and  to  send  intelligence  to  the  enemy. — ^Now 
then  let  me  beg  your  attention  to  the  evi- 
dence that  has  been  given.  That  which  is 
proper  to  begin  with,  thoueh  it  is  the  last 
almost  in  point  of  date,  is  {he  apprehension 
of  the  prisoner.  M.  De  la  Motte  is  taken  at 
his  own  lodgkigs,  returning  from  a  journey  : 
he  had  been  then  certainly  at  Lutterloh's : 
upon  his  person  are  found  certain  papers. 
This  is  followed  by  the  apprehension  of  Lut- 
terloh, by  several  papers  being  found  in  Lut- 
terloh's  garden,  many  of  which  were  written 
by  the  prisoner :  he  is  proved  by  Lutterloh 
to  have  been  employing  him  for  a  considera- 
ble space  of  time,  m  order  to  gain  intelli- 
gence to  send  to  France,  and  which  Liitterloh 
understands  to  have  been  sent  to  France 
Lutterloh  goes  to  Firance  alto  with  the  pri- 


7991 


21  GEORGE  m. 


Trial  ofF.  H.  De  la  MaUe, 


[800 


soner  upon  this  business.  You  farther  find, 
that  during  the  period  in  which  he  has  em- 
ployed Lutterloh  to  gain  intelligence,  he,  as 
well  as  other  persons  who  are  named,  em- 
ployed one  Roger  to  carry  packets  to  Rat- 
cline,  which  pacikets  Ratcliffe  was  engaged  to 
carry  to  Boulogne :  he  is  hired  at  SO/,  a  trip, 
and  is  to  be  paid  100/.  at  a  certain  time :  he 
b  told  he  is  go  very  often,  and  he  does  go ' 
very  often,  and  he  himself  has  an  interview 
with  the  prisoner.  I  say  nothing  to  you  of 
the  oscular  contents  of  the  papers  that 
were  actually  put  on  board  Ratcline's  boat, 
and  carried  by  him  to  France,  because  they 
have  not  been  proved  *  but  there  are  two  let- 
ters that  are  in  proof^  one  produced  by  Mr. 
Todd,  the  other  by  sir  Stanycr  Porten,  ad* 
dressed  to  a  Mr.  Grolay,  in  Richheu-street, 
in  Paris,  written  by  the  prisoner,  and  con- 
taining intelligence. 

This  is  in  eeneral  ,the  nature  of  the  case. 
If  it  is  provea,,can  there  be  a  doubt  that  he 
sent  intelUsence?  Did  he  not  send  the  two 
letters  found  in  his  own  hand-writing,  which 
were  stopped  at  the  Post-office?  Did  he  not 
send  those  papers  by  Ratcliffe,  which  accord- 
ing to  the  eviaence  (which  I  shall  presently 
shortly  state  to  you)  could  be  nothing  but  in- 
telligence to  the  enemy,  with  which  he  had 
been  iinnished  b^  Lutterloh,  as  well  as  from 
otlier  means  ?  If  he  hired  Ratcliffe  to  carry 
intelligence  to  the  enemy,  even  although  no 
intelligence  had  been  actnally  carried,  yet 
there'  can  be  no  doubt  but  that  is  an  overt 
act  of  hieh  treason.  It  proves  his  imaeinar 
tion  (as  the  law  calls  it)  of  the  death  or  the 
king:'  it  proves  his  adhering  to  the  enemies 
of  &e  kingdom.  We  have  also  proved  his 
hiring  Lutterloh  to  get  information  for  the 
purpose  of  sending  intelligence  to  the  ene- 
my; for  when  he  is  taken,  there  are  veiy 
material  papers  found  u[K>n  him :  there  are 
long  lists  of  ships,  in  which  their  situation, 
their  victualling,  their  supposed  desdnation, 
are  particularly  described;  and  there  is  an 
account,  from  an  hospital  at  Portsmouth,  of 
the  state  of  the  sick.  With  what  possible 
view  could  these  materials  have  been  col- 
lected ?  Afler  this,  if  you  believe  what  is 
proved  by  Lutterloh,  by  Ratcliffe^  and  bv 
Roger,  as  well  as  by  the  letters  ot  the  pri- 
soner, which  Have  been  proved  over  and  over, 
and  which  shew  him  to  have  been  in  this 
constant  habit  of  sending  this  intelligence  to 
the  enemy,  can  you  have  a  doubt  that  the 
intelligence  was  collected  for  that  very  pur- 
pose? And  if  it  was,  there  is  an  end  of  the 
case. 

Now  th<e  next  thing  I  beg  your  attention 
to,  is  the  several  papers  that  were  found  in 
Luttsrloh's  earden.  One,  you  will  find,  is 
a  letter  dated  in  1778 ;  another  a  letter  dated, 
1779,  in  which  mention  is  made  of  coals,  in 
which  they  never  dealt  In  another  he  is 
speaking  oi  his  promises  to -Lutterloh,  and  in- 
a  langu&ige  which  beyond  all  doubt  shew^ 
wh;it  was  the  nature  of  the  negociation  and 


correspondence  between  them.  Besides  that, 
there  is  a  paper  oadled  '  lostructbns,'  which 
contains  partioflar  directions  to  Lutterloh  to 
send  two  cutters,  one  to  France,  and  the 
other  to  Spain,  Uie  moment  that  the  squadron 
under  the  command  of  commodore  Johnatone 
should  sail.  There  are  also  covers  directed 
to  the  commandants  of  different  French  ports. 

These  are  the  papers  found  in  Lutterloh'a 
garden,  almost  all  ot  them  in  the  hand-wrhr- 
mg  of  De  la  Motte.  I  should  indeed  ^say  all, 
because  the  proof  goes  to  all  of  them.  Then 
does  it  not  in  the  strongest  manner  prove  ther 
employment  of  Lutterfeh?  Add  to  that  the 
eviaence  of  Ratdifife,  and  of  Roger,  with  re- 
gard to  that  employment  But,  in  order  to 
get  rid  of  this  testimony,  of  all  of  it  indeed 
except  the  papers  that  were  found  upon  the 
prisoner — ^for  as  to  them  there  is  no  possible 
answer  to  be  given ;  for  Jellous>  who  took 
him,  proved  them  to  have  been  upon  his  per- 
son, and  to  have  been  thrown  away  in  that 
hurry  and  confusion  which  a  guilty  man  feels 
when  he  is  apprehended;  Lutterloh  proved 
them  to  be  papers  which  he  had  given  him ; 
one  of  which  he  procured,  the  others  he  hidi- 
self  prepared — ^to  get  rid  of  all  this  evidence, 
except  relative  to  what  was  actually  founq 
ui)on  his  person,  you  have  a  prodigious  long 
criticism  upon  the  hand<-wnting  of  De  la 
Motte,  as  it.  is  proved  in  the  papers  found  in 
Lutterloli's  garden.  If  Uiis  man's  hand»wrii* 
ing  is  not  proved,  how  is  it  possible  ever  to 
prove  a  hand-writins  ?  or  when  did  you  see 
or  know  of  a  hand-writing  being  proved? 
You  have  heard  a  great  deal  of  similitude  of 
hands :  that  might  do  very  well  for  the  pur- 
pose of  my  learned  friend ;  but  it  is  nothing 
to  the  question,  because  this  is  not  proved  b/ 
similitude  of  huids;  his  hand-writing  is 
proved  by  men  who  have  seen  him  write; 
and  they  don*t  speak  rashly,  but  with  consi- 
deration. Mr.  Lutterloh,  who  hias  seen  hii^ 
write,  who  saw  him  write  the  greater  part  of 
thescL  proves  nearly  all  of  them. 

What  is  the  next  witness,  Mr.  Bauer?  He 
was  introduced  to  De  la  Motte  by  Lutterloh, 
and  was  employed  by  him.  He  sees  him 
write  twice.  In  what  manner  does  he  give 
his  testimony  ?  He  does  not  swear  roundly  to 
every  paper  that  is  put  into  his  hand :  no,  he 
is  cautious ;  he  excepts  two  or  three,  he  can- 
not venture  to  say  he  tiiinks  those  the  hand- 
writing of  the  prisoner;  they  may  or  not 
be  his  hand-writing;  but  he  doubts  about 
it  Is  this  the  language  of  a  man  who 
speaks  rashly,  and  at  hazard?  or  is  it  not 
the  evidence  that  you  would  expect  from  « 
man  exercising  his  judgment,  and  speaking 
soberly,  as  that  judgment  directs  himf 
You  have  also  the  testimony  of  Mr.  La 
Cointe,  a  gentleman  of  great  character,  with 
whom  the  prisoner  kept  money:  he  saya 
3,000/.  have  passed  through  his  hands  in  ^ 
little  more  than  two  years ;  he  proves  the 
hand-writing  to,  I  think,  all  but  two  of  these 
papers ;  atufas  to  them,  according  to  his  judg-? 


801] 


Jbr  High  Treason* 


A.  D.  1781. 


[802 


xnenty  they  are  not  so  much  like  De  la  Motle's 
haad-writing  as  the  others :  hut  to  all,  except- 
ine  those,  ypu  have  three  witnesses,  acquaint- 
ea  with  his  hand-writing,  who  prove  them  to 
be  his  hand-writing ;  and  Mr.  Lc  Cointe  has 
not  onlv  actually  seen  him  write,  but  has  cor- 
xesponded  with  him.  has  had  notes  finom  him ; 
so  that  the  idea  of  his  hand-writing  b  im- 
pressed upon  Mr.  Le  Cointe  as  strong  as  you 
can  naturally  expect  it  to  be.  Then  whaA  be- 
comes of  all  that  lon£-1^boured  criticism  upon 
similitude  of  hands  f  Similitude  of  hanc^  is 
when  a  paper  is  proved  to  be  written  by  a  man, 
and  another  is  compared  wit^  it,  and  then, 
from  the  likeness  between  the  two,  the  con- 
clusion is  to  be  drawn,  that  that  must  be  writ- 
ten b^  him.  No,  sa^s  the  law,  that  is  not 
proot  of  the  hand-writing,  because  there  may 
06  a  forgery,  an  imitation ;  but  the  character 
of  a  man's  hand-writing  is  known  just  the 
same  hj  seeing  him  write,  as  you  know  a 
man*s  sace  by  observing  his  features.  The 
character  of  a  man's  writing  is  capable  of 
proof;  and  in  this  case  you  have  it  proved  by 
three  witnesses. 

It  did  not  escape  you,  I  am  persuaded,  that 
some  of  these  letters  were  sealeid  with  the  same 
seal  that  Mr.  Le  Cointe  has  had  affixed  to 
letters  sent  him  by  M.  De  la  Mptte..  Mr.  Le 
Cointe's  manner  of  proving  the  hand-writing 
does  him  sreiit  credit ;  he  speaks  with  a  cau- 
tion which  ought  to  be  observed  where  a 
man's  life  is  at  stake.  As  to  a  little  note 
which  Lutterbh  saw  De  la  Motte  write,  ip 
which  are  put  down  those  sums  of  money 
which,  acGordine  to  the  propose  plan  and 
bargain  Lutterloh  and  De  la  Motte  were  to. 
receive  from  the  French  ministry,  if,  in  con- 
sequence of  their  communication  to  them,  any 
of  oqr  ships  should  be  taken;  Mr.  Le  Cointe 
says,  **  Upon  the  whole,  I  don't  think  afiy  of 
it  IS  M.  De  la  Motte's  writing  excepting  the 
words  ^  ready  money.' " 

Then,  gentlemen,  falling  in  with  the  hand- 
writing, what  is  the  evidence  of  Lutterloh  ? 
That  he  was  emoloyed  by  the  prisoner  to  gain 
intelligence;  that  he  sent  him  intelligence, 
from  tune  to  time,  in  which  you  see  how  Lut- 
terloh is  confirmed  by  the  papers  found  upon 
the  prisoner,  which  Lutterloh  had  suppliocl 
him  with,  as  well  as  by  those  found  in  Lut- 
terloh's  garden.  A  great  deal  of  pains  has 
been  taken  to  .make  you  believe  that  Lutter- 
loh is  a  man  who  deserves  no  credit.  An  exa- 
mination has  been  gone  into^  in  a  way  very 
highly  improper ;  because,  when  the  charac- 
ter of  a  witdess  is  attempted  to  be  impeaclied, 
it  can  only  be  done  by  enquiring  into  the  ge- 
neral character  the  man  hears  in  the  world : 
yOM  have  not  one  witness  produced  to  say, 
.that  lAitterloh  is  a  man.of  such  character  that 
he  does  not  deserve  crecjUt  upon  his  oath.  I 
Dsatest  I  never  heard  a  witness  gp  through  a 
Uif^  ^examinatm  with  more  openness  and 
birmeta  than  be  did;  ibr,  though  he  was 
obiiged,  when  pressed  by  my  learned  friend, 
Ji».  ansnter  ^uwtiot^  wJtufiti  man  be  Y«ry  gratp 

VOL.  XXI. 


ing  and  painful  to  him  to  answer,  when  he 
was  forced  to  give  an  account  of  himself,  as 
having  fallen  fix>m  a  condition  veify  much 
above  what  he  was  afterwards  reduced  to; 
that  he  had  fallen  into  that  low  condition ; 
that,  hav'mg  been  the  nephew  of  a  person 
who  was  agent  (he  calls  him  ambassador) 
from  the  duke  of  Brunswick,  he  was  at  last 
reduced  to  the  situation  of  a  common  foot- 
man: and  yet  you  do  not  find  him  endea- 
vouring to  sink  these  circumstances  pf  his  life, 
which  It  must  be  painful  for  him  to  relate ; 
but  he  fairly  and  (^cnly  tells  tliem  to  you. 

Mr.  Lutterloh,  you  are  told,  is  a  monster,  is 
a  traitor;  in  short,  no  words' occur  to  my 
learned  fi*iend,  that  are  bitter  enough  to  be 
used  against  him.  If  this  be  true,  Tie  has,  I 
hope,  made  some  recompense  to  this  injured 
country  for  his  crimes,  by  doing  that  which 
is  the  utmost  and  the  best  that  can  be  ex- 
pected from  a  man  who  enibsLrks  in  such 
work :  he  lias  endeavoured  to  bring  to  jusLioe 
the  principal  offender,  by  relating^tnat  which, 
I  am  persuaded,  you  will  believe  to  be  the 
truth.  But,  if  he  is  a  traitor,  a  monster;  if 
no  terms  of  reproach  are  strong  enough  to 
delineate  his  demerits,  baseness,  and  wicked- 
ness ;  what  is  the  prisoner } .  what  led  this 
gentleman^  descended  fi'om  noble  parents, 
orn  to  a  great  patrimony,  an  officer  in  a  r^ 
ximent  of  France— what  led  him  to  seek,  for 
nis  intimate^  for  his  confident,  this,  one  of  tho 
worst  and  wickedest  of  men  ?  How  can  you 
account  for  it,  but  that  there  was  that  unfor- 
tunate bond  of  union  between  them,  whicfi 
ever  is,  and  must  be  the  case,  ofmen  ei 
ing  in  work  so  disgraceful,  so  wicked,  so 
gerous  to  themselves,  as  that  in  which 
these  men  had  embarked?  Lutterloh  told 
vou  that  his  distress  had  driven  him  to  what 
te  had  undertaken.  The  same  distress,  I 
have  no  doubt,  urged  the  prisoner  to  engage 
in  the  same  business :  he  has  indeed  received 
3,000/.  within  these  two  years  from  France: 
Lutterloh  tells  you  he  hatf  received  large  suras 
from  him :  the  letters  produced  mention,  froifi 
time  to  time,  money  sent  by  De  la  Motte  tp 
Lutterloh :  a  note  of  hand  is  proved  to  tl\e 
amount  of  130/.  which  Dc  la  Motte  had  given 
to  Lutterloh;  and  how  can  you  account  fyr. 
Lutterloh,  late  a  footman,  then  keeping  a 
little  shop,  then  freed  by  an  insolvent  act,  and 
prepared  by  the  deepest  distress  and  despair 
for  any  business  by  which  money  was  to  be  / 
got— how  can  you  account  for  his  being  ele- 
vated from  that  state  of  indigence,  to  which 
he  was  forced  to  confess  he  was  reduced,  but 
by  his  receiving  money  from  some  person, 
for  work  which  deserved  an  ample  reward, 
and  without  which  no  man  would  submit  to 
any  thing  which  his  conscience  must  so 
strongly  condemn  ?  Is  there  a  coiyecture  of 
any  other  hand  that  supplied  Lutterioh  mth 
money,  which  converted  him^  from  .a  servant 
and  a  beggar,  to  a  country  gentleman  ia 
Hampshire,  except  as  far  as  he  was  supported, 
aqd  from  tUDfi  to  time  paid  by  the.pru>oner.f 
3  F  .     - 


803J 


n  GEORGE  m. 


Trial  o/F.  U.Dela  Motle, 


C8d( 


If  there  be  a  drcumstance  in  the  case  firom 
whence  you  can  account  for  the  change  in 
Lutterloh's  condition,  except  bj  the  money 
with  which  De  la  Motte  suppUed  him,  it  has 
•scaped  my  attention ;  and  if  there  be  no 
other,  then  that  very  circumstance  furnishes 
the  strongest  conclusion  against  the  ptisoner, 
and  confirms,  I  might  almost  say,  to  demon- 
stration, the  evidence  given  by  Lutterloh. 

I  say  nothing  to  you  now  of  the  miserable 
attempts  that  were  made  to  asperse  and 
blacken  the  character  of  Lutterloh,  br  sup- 
posing that  Mr.  JViklman  had  detected  him  m^ 
a  crime,  and  that  another  man  would  contra^' 
diet  him^  and  prove  him  to  have  said  what  he 
had  demed ;  because  Mr.  Wildman  has  clear- 
ed him,  beyond  all  doubt,  from  all  suspicion, 
and  has  utterly  disproved  that  foolish  re- 
proach, that  was  groundlesslv  adduced,  and 
attempted  to  be  thrown  upon  him. 

As  to  the  ofther,  you  are  told  that  Lutterloh, 
forsooth,  had  become  a  witness  against  De  la 
Motte  from  the  hope  of  gain ;  that  he  had 
Said  De  la  Motte  was  rich,  and  he  should 
have  a  good  slice  out  of  him,  by  convicting 
him  of  nigh  treason :  that  is  a  strange  way  to 
get  money  from  a  man.  But  it  did  not  im- 
mediately occur  to  me  how  this  officer  of 
France^  reduced  to  bejggary,  and  becoming  a 
dealer  m  prints,  Birmmgham  goods,  and  toys, 
should  become  a  rich  man,  from  whom  Lut- 
terloh was  to.  get  a  slice.  But  it  is  wasting 
your  time  to  make  such  remarks. 

Besides  aspersing  the  character  of  Lutterloh, 
and  attempting  to  destroy  his  credit,  he  is 
'  held  forth  to  you  as  one  of  the  strangest  men 
in  the  world;  to  which  I  have  only  to  ask 
you,  Did  you  ever  in  your  life  hear  a  story 
more  perfectly  strai^e*and  incredible,  than 
the  description  given  you  by  the  counsel  of 
M.  De  la  Motte  ?  I  mive  heard  of  men  hav- 
ing been  driven  by  their  distresses  from  this 
countiy,  and*  going  to  live  in  France^  on  ac- 
count of  the  c^pness  of  the  coimtjy ;  but  I 
never  before  heard' of  a  baron,  an  officer  of  a 
regiment  in  France,  coming  here  because  he 
could  not  support  himself  m  France ;  and  I 
never  heard  of  a  baron  coming  to  England  to 
deal  in  prints.  The  whole  of  that  is  so  ex- 
tremely ridiculous,  that  if  you  read  it  in  a  ro- 
mance you  would  laugh  at  it,  as  being  too 
absurd  for  that  species  of  composition.  That 
is  hardly  worth  a  remark,  but  for  this  obser- 
vation, that  you  will  see  one  contains  charts 
of  America,  which  cost  ten  guinieas,  the  other 
is  charts  describing  the  shores  of  the  Atlantic 
Ocean,  both  of  America  and  Europe.  I  leave 
you  to  guess  why  De  la  Motte,  employed  as 
he  is  proved  to  have  been,  was  so  expeu»ve 
in  obtaining  these  charts. 

Unless  something  has  been  said  to  destroy 
utterly  the  credit  of  Lutterloh,  you  see  he 
has  precisely  and  positively  proved  the 
char^  against  the  prisoner.  It  is  proved 
also  Dy  Jellous,  who  finds*  the  papers  upoo 
him ;  it  is  proved  by  the  papers  that  are 
found  in  the  garden  of  Mr.  tuiterlob.    AH 


the  wit&f^ses  amount  to  about  lour  or  five; 
for  the  witnesses  that  prove  the  hand-writing 
are  all  to  be  taken  toother.  But  when  I 
am  speaking  of  the  conmmation  of  Lutterloh, 
I  must  remark,  that,  when  you  are  tiyii^ 
men  for  high  treason,  whose  designs  must  ne- 
cessarily be  ohscured  and  disguised  with  the 
utmost  darkness  that  the  perpetrators  of  them 
can  involve  them  in.  you  can't  expect  wtt^ 
nesses  to  be  produce^  who  can  actually  givi 
an  account  of  such  design,  and  who  ara 
themselves  men  of  undoubted  fair  reputation, 
and  of  honourable  lives ;  because  such  men 
do  not  embark  in  these  designs :  no  other 
men,  therefore,  can  be  privy  to  or  conscious 
of  them,  no  other  men  can  relate  them,  but 
those  who  are  prevailed  upon  by  their  nece»- 
sities  to  bear  a  part  in  them :  and  from  the 
beginning  of  the  world  to  this  time  there 
never  has  been  a  treason  of  moment  brought 
to  light  and  punished,  without  some  of  those 
who  had  joined  in  it  being  aAerwards  pre- 
vailed upon  to  disclose  it.  But  this  is  not  tha 
case  of  a  witness  whose  credit  is  impeached 
in  any  other  respect,  nor  is  it  of  a  witness 
standing  unconfirmed ;  for  he  is  confirmed  by 
various  papers,  about  the  proof  and  the  eflect 
of  which  it  is  impossible  to  doubt. 

You  have  in  evidence  two  letters ;  the  obo 
produced  by  Mr.  Todd,  the  other  by  sir 
dtanyer  Porten.  My  learned  fiiend  com- 
mented upon  one  of  them,  because  it  did  not 
come  from  the  Post-office.  If  it  did  not,  it  is 
not  material.  Sir  Stanyer  Porten  says  H 
came  from  the  Post-office.  Mr.  Todd  did  not 
recollect  that  he  bad  sent  that  letter  to  the 
Post-office;  but  the  hand-writing  of  it  ia 
proved  by  three  witnesses  beyond  all  doubt. 
Sir  Stanyer  Porten  says  "  It  was  sent  to  me 
fipom  the  Postroffice ;  I  have  lost  the  cover  of 
it^  but  it  was  directed  to  M.  M.  Grolay,  No. 
64,  Bichlieu-street,  Paris.^  Mr.  Toda  saya, 
''I  had  directions  to  send  letters,  so  ad- 
dressed, to  the  office  of  the  secretary  of  states 
lord  Hillsborough^  in  which  sir  Stanyer 
Porten  was  deputy  secretary.  There  were 
but  two  so  addressed :  one  I  kept  myself,  and 
the  other  I  sent  accordingly.  I  cannot  swear 
I  sent  that  particular  letter,  but  I  sent  anothet 
that  was  so  directed."  If  m  Stanyer  Porten 
received  this  letter  from  the  Posfc-omce,  wiuck 
is  the  evidence  of  Mr.  Todd^  can  there  be  a 
doubt  but  that  this  letter  came  from  the 
Post-office  ?  Not  that  it  makes  any  diffierenoey 
come  how  it'w^ould.  If  nr  Stanyer  PoHea 
had  picked  it  up, in  the  street,  it  would  not 
less  nave  been  evidence^  because  it  is  proved 
to  be  the  letter  of  the  prisoner  himself. 

Gentiemen,  you  are  to  add  to  this  the  proof 
given  by  Roger  and  byRatcliffe.  Notwith- 
standing all  the  comments  upon  the  wltneasei^ 
I  may,  I  think,  remark  to  you,  that  those  wit- 
nesses did  not  speak  with  any  appearances  of 
preparation,  or  of  art,  but  like  men ;— at  least 
Mr.  Katclifte,  who  was  telling  you  simply  the 
truth,  as  he  reoolkpted  it  With  respect  to 
Roger,  I  leave  you  &  judge  whether  he  spoke 


805] 


for  High  Treason* 


A.  D.  1781. 


[806 


any  thing  more  against  M.  De  la  Motte  than 
he  could  possibly  avoid.  That  he  was,  in  his 
hearty  the  friend  of  !De  la  Motte,  I  think  his 
examination,  when  he  was  called  up  a  second 
time  by  my  learned  friend,  can  leave  no  doubt. 
Now,  what  is  the  evidence  given  by  Roger  ? — 
That  Ratclifife  was  employed  to  cany,  not 
prints,  not  Birmingham  toys,  but  to  carry 
papers,  or  packets  or  parcels  of  i)ai>ers.  Upon 
what  terms  ?  At  20/.  a  trip,  witn  a  promise 
from  De  la  Motte  of  a  gratuity  of  100/.  if  he 
would  be  diligent  and  active.  Now,  if  you 
had  not  heard  the  other  part  of  the  story,  in 
God*8  name  what  must  you  at  once  have  con- 
cluded that  these  papers  coBtained  ?  To  run 
over  aeain  and  agam  from  Kent  to  Boulosne^ 
out  of  all  course  of  trade,  merely  to  deliver 
these  packets,  and  bring  back  an  answer ;  for 
Ratdifie  swears  he  never  carried  anv  thing  but 

Sapers,  except  once,  at  the  time  when  he  saw 
I.  De  la  Motte  J  then  with  the  papers  there 
"were  two  boxes,  one  containing  tne  model  of 
.  ^Efm,  the  other  some  prints :  at  no  other  time 
^  Ratcliffe  carry  any  thing  but  papers ;  for 
which  he  is  paid  an  enormous  price.  Then 
you  will  remark  what  De  la  Motte  says  to 
Katclifie,  when  he  conversed  with  him  at 
Roger's  house.  *'  With  some  of  the  first  you 
were  quick  enough ;  with  some  of  the  others 
you  have  not  been  so  quick ;  and  the  same 
news  sets  sooner  to  France  by  other  channels^ 
and  therefore  it  will  not  be  worth  while  to 
employ  you,  unless  you  make  haste.''  Why 
would  the  news  getting  into  France  by  other 
hands,  in  a  shorter  time,  render  of  no  advan- 
tafie  the  packets  Ratcliffe  carries,  unless  Rat- 
cime  communicates  intelligence  ?  What  other 
construction  can  be  put  upon  it  ?  I  don't  wish 
you  to  presume  or  guess  a  man's  life  away ; 
but  I  desire  you  to  determine  upon  that  evi- 
dence which,  in  this  case,  as  well  as  in  all 
others,  carries  conviction  to  your  minds.  If  it 
stood  alone  upon  that  proof,  I  conceive  you 
could  not  have  a  doubt  that  Rattliffe  was  em- 
ployed by  De  la  Motte  to  carry  the  intelli- 
gence to  France.  Then  what  does  Roger  say  ? 
He  tells  YOU  he  carried  these  packets  to  Rat- 
diffe*  mat  he  vras  paid  eight  guineas  a 
monUi,  besides  his  expences.  by  DeTi  Motte ; 
uid  in  the  prints  that  he  bought  .ie  had  a 
idiiHine  in  a  guinea  commission;  and  that 
when  ne  went  upon  the  coast  of  Kent,  to 
carry  these  packets,  he  never  carried  any  thing 
dse  tnzt  the  papers:  so  that,  for  sending 
papers  only  down  to  Kent,  this  man  receives 
eight  guineas  a  month,  besides  his  expences, 
stnd  other  advantages.  Does  this  .leave  a 
doubt  in  your  minds  that  Uiis  was  intelligence 
to  the  enemy  ?  Why  should  he  pay  so  extras 
yagant  a  pnce  to  send  a  few  papers?. And 
^ey  were  sent  to  the  commissary  at  Bou- 
loene,  directed  in  the  name  of  a  Mr.  Smith. 
J  aefy  any  man  who  hears  me  to  rise  up  and 
seriously ^tell  me,  that  he  has  a  doubt  that 
those  papers  contained  intelGgence  to  the  ene- 
mies of  England.  And  if  that  single  fact  is 
ipade  pot  against  the  prisoner^  he  stands  be* 


yond  all  doubt  convicted ;  for  then  he  has  ac« 
tually  sent  intelligence;  and  if  it  had  not 
reached  France,  his  guilt  would  be  ^compleie 
in  having  employed  and  psdd  this  Ratclifts  to 
cary  it. 

Here,  gentlemen,  let  me  remark,  that  all 
^the  papers  which  came  from  Rozer,  as  well 
as  those  that  came  from  Waltrono,  seemed  to 
be  generally  connected  with  Dc  la  Motte; 
for  lloger  tells  you,  that  sometimes  De  la 
Motte  and  sometimes  Waltrond  paid  him  this 
eight  guineas  a  month.  He  was  paid  but 
once  by  De  la  Motte.  Besides,  too,  De  la 
Motte's  conversation  connects  ^e  whole  of 
the  business  vnxh  himself;  for  he  speaks  of 
the  first  of  the  packets :  he  says,  tnose  first 
sent  went  early^  those  afterwards  had  been 
slower  in  their  carriage :  that,  yow  observe, 
was  owing  to  Mr.  Stewart's  sending  them  to 
^  London.  Then  does  not  M.  Dq  la  Motte,  bt 
this  conversation,  connect  himself  with  aU 
that  passed  before  the  time  that  Ratchfife  had 
an  interview  with  him.^  Roger  tells  you,  re- 
lative to  the  letters  brought  to  his  house  for 
Wtltrond,  that  he  sometimes  gave  them  to 
De  lu  Motte ;  that  De  la  Motte  read  them, 
and  some  of  Uiem  he  burnt.  These  letters 
were  directed  to  Roger,  and  sent  to  him ;  vet 
he  so  well  understands  the  budness,  that 
Waltrond  and  De  la  Motte  are  the  same,  that 
he  fives  the  letters  to  De  la  Motte.  Are  not 
Wiutrond,  Roger,  Ratcliffe,  and  De  la  Motte, 
by  this  evidence,  undoubtedly  joined  together 
in  the  transaction?  ^ 

You  have  heard  arguments  upon  different 
parts  of  the  case,  as  ifeach  of  them  had  stood 
separately:  hut  they  are  not  only  each  of 
them,  as  distinct  transactions,  clearly  proved 
in  the  most  satisfactory  manner^  but  they 
add  to  the  weight  of  each  other ;  and  eveiy 
part  of  this  one  story,  and  one  transaction, 
most  strongly  supports  and  corroborates  tho 
other.  Lutterloh  supplying  De  la  Motte 
with  Tntelligence  in  1778, 1779,  and  1780/ is 
extremely  consistent  with  the  scheme  of 
sending  these  papers  by  Ratcliffe.  I  have  no 
doubt  out  he  employed  other  instruments, 
and  gained  other  intelligence,  than  by  the 
means  of  Lutterloh.  Lutterloh's  district 
was  Portsmouth.  I  have  no  doubt  but  thai 
the  scheme  extended  to  Plymouth,  and  evei^ 
part  of  the  kingdom  where  any  intelligence 
was  to  be  obtamed.  You  cannot,  as  wise 
and  reasonable  men,  form  your  judgment 
irpon  any  one  part  of  this  transaction,  as  dis- 
tinct from  the  rest;  because,  undoubtedly, 
all  concur  to  support  one  proposition,  that  the 
prisoner  was  employed  in  a  traitorous  design 
to  communicate  intelligence  to  the  enemy; 
and  which  he  did  communicate  by  the  instru- 
ments^ and  in  the  particular  manner  which 
has  been  proved. 

These  are,  in  general,  all  the  remarks 
Which,  at  this  late  hour,  1  think  it  at  all  ne- 
cessary to  trouble  you  with  :  but  I  recollect, 
my  learned  friend  told  you,  it  must  be  secret 
intelligence;  that  the  intelligence  sen^by.tbQ 


SOT] 


21  GEORQ^  III. 


Trvd  ofF.  H.  De  la  MeiU, 


[80S 


prisoner  was  to  be  found  in  every  newspaper; 
and  therefore  it  is  not  secret,  and  is  not  trea- 
son. I  own  the  term  *  secret  intelligence' 
has  never  before  occurred  to  me  in  the  de- 
scription, of  this  sort  of  high  treason;  and 
there  is  one  good  reason  why  it  never  has, 
because  no  mortal  can  ever  understand  what 
is  meant  by  secret.  That  this  was  intelli- 
gence which  no  newspaper  could  supply^ 
there  can  be  no  doubt,  because  this  is  authen- 
tic, it  is  accurate :  part  of  it,  as  Lutterloh 
tells  you,  was  obtained  of  a  man  in  an  office 
at  Portsmouth,  whom  he  found  means  to  cor- 
rupt;  and  there  is  a  wide  difference  between 
reading  it  amone  common  articles  in  a  news- 
paper, if  it  could  have  got  there,  and  having 
it  by  a  trus^  hand  conveyed  as  actual  intelli- 
gence received  from  the  very  port  where 
those  ships  were  preparing.  Whether  it  was 
conceived  to  be  valuable  intelligence,  or  not, 
the  price  paid,  of  SO/,  a  trip  to  Boulogne,  will 
satisty  you ;  as  well  as  the  price  paid  to  Lut^ 
terloh  and  Roger :  that  proves  it  was  consi- 
dered by  them  as  valuable.  And  sorry  I  am 
to  say,  that  one  unfortunate  fact  has  occurred, 
that  the  secret  signals  which  should  be  known 
only  to  he  officers  of  a  fleet  at  sea,  have,  ^ 
either  by  De  la  Motte  or  some  other,  been ' 
communicated  to  France.  I  do  not  say  that 
is  proved  upon  De  la  Motte  -.  I  only  say  that 
such  a  thing  has  happened ;  and  it  is  obvious 
that  such  intelligence  must  be  extremely  im- 
portant to  the  enemies  of  this  country,  and 
infinitely  detrimental  to  us. 

With  these  remarks  I  shall  conclude ;  not 
wishing  that  you  should  carry  the  evidence 
the  least  beyond  its  plain  and  necessary  im- 
port. Whatever  my  reasonings  upon  it  have 
teen,  or  whatever  my  opinions  may  be,  thty 
are  to  weigh  no  farther  with  you  than  as  your 
judgment  accompanies  mine.  I  have  not  a 
wish  to  convict  M.  De  la  Motte  as  M.  De  la 
Motte,  or  as  a  man  standing  at  that  bar  ac- 
cused of  the  crime  of  hkh  treason :  as  far  as 
I  know  any  thine  of  tne  man,  considered 
distinctb:  from  ue  proof  adduced  against 
him,  I  should  hear  his  acquittal  with  as  much 
ease,  and  as  perfectly  free  from  dissatisfac- 
tion, as  any  man  that  sits  round  me :  and,  • 
if  in  your  judgment  he  is  not  proved  guilty  of 
the  facts  upon  which  I  have  been  reasoning, 
in  God]s  name  pronounce  that  he  is  not  guilty. 
You  will  do  justice,  and  ^ou  will  do  no  more 
than  justice.  But,  on  the  other  hand,  if  your 
judgments  accompany  mine ;  if  the  prisoner 
is,  in  your  opinion,  pr6ved  to  have  been 
guilty,  I  will  not  say  of  one,  but  of  repeated 
acts  of  treason ;  if  you  are  satisfied  ot  that, 
upon  the  evidence  you  have  heard,  and  are  as 
well  satisfied  as  you  can  ever  expect  to  be  in 
siccusations  of  such  a  nature  as  the  present; 
then,  I  own,  I  am  not  among  the  number  of 
those  who  feel  that  which  is  falsely,  and  by. 
a  very  unjust  name,  called  compassion;  for 
that  sort  of  pity,  or  tenderness,  which  shall 
prevail  upon  a  jury  to  acquit  a  man  proved  to 
}iave   committed    such  dangerous  treason 


against  this  kingdom  as  the  prisoner  at  the 
bar  has,  if  the  proof  be  such  as  I  have  sup- 
posed it  to  be ;  though  the  jury  may  have  no 
criminal  intention,  they  are,  in  truth,  the 
most  cruel  enemies  to  their  country*  for  such 
acquittals  tend  to  encourage  crimes  like  those 
which  are  charged  upon  we  prisoner,  to  lay 
open  to  our  many  enemies  around  us  all  the 
secret  councils  that  are  taken,  and  the  prepar- 
rations  that  are  made  to  defend  ourselves 
against  their  attacks ;  and  they  tend,  of 
course,  to  weaken,  to  disarm,  and  to  destroy 
yoiur  country. 

Mr.  Justice  BMller : 

Gentlemen  of  the  Jury;  The  prisoner 
at  the  ban  Francis  Henry  Deia  Motte,  stands 
indicted  fx>r  high  treason ;  and  the  treason 
which  is  specified  in  the  indictment  is  of  two 
sorts :  first,  compassing  the  death  of  the  king  ; 
and,  secondly,  adhering  jto  the  king's  ene- 
mies. The  compassing  thd  death  of  uie  king 
is  the  act  of  treason ;  and  the  overt  acts  which 
are  laid  in  the  indictment  (the  evidence  of 
which  I  shall  sttte  to  you  presently*^  are  only 
the  means  which  are  maoe  use  or  to  effec- 
tuate the  intentions  anil  tlie  imaginations  of 
the  heart.  In  thjs  way  the  crime  of  treason 
has  been  defined*  by  our  ancestors,  and  has 
been  settled  for  ages  past.  The  overt  acts,  of 
which  evidence  has  been  given  to  you,  con- 
sist of  collecting  intelligence  for  the  purpose 
of  supplying  the  enemy  with  it,  of  sending 
intelligence  to  the  eniemy^  and  of  hiring  per- 
sons for  the  purpose  of  collecting  that  intelli- 
gence  in  this  kingdom.  The  sending  inteHi- 
gence,  or  collectmg  intelligence,  for  the  pur- 
pose of  sending  it  to  an  enemy,  to  enable 
them  to  atmoy  us  or  to  defend  themselves, 
though  it  be  never  delivered  to  the  enemy  ; 
or  the  hiring  a  person  for  that  purpose,  is 
an  overt  act  of  both  the  species  of  treason 
which  I  am  stating  to  you  from  this  indict, 
ment. 

•  Gentlemen,  having  now  stated  to  you  what 
is  the  law,  I  will  state  to  you  the  question 
which  you  are  to  consider.  You  are  to  con- 
sider whether  the  prisoner  at  the  bar  collected 
intelligence  of  the  nature  which  you  have 
heard,  for  the  purtiose  of  furnishing  the  ene- 
my with  it;  whether  he  did  hire  Ratdiffe,  or 
Lutterloh,  or  either  of  them,  to  convey  this 
intelligence  to  the  French ;  and  whether  the 
two  letters  which  are  proved  to  have  been 
written  by  him,  and  sent  to  the  post-office, 
directed  to  M.  Grolay^  were  written  and  sent 
to  the  post-office  in  order  to  be  delivered  to 
the  enemy,  and  with  intent  to  convey  such 
intelligence  to  them :  for  in  either  bt  those 
cases/though  the  advice  was  intercepted,  and 
no  intelligence  actuallv  got  to  the  haxids  of 
the  enemy  at  all,  yet  the  offence  against  the 
prisoner  is  proved,  and  it  will  be  incumbent 
upon  you  to  find  him  guilty. 

Having  now  stated  to  vou  the  law,  and  the 
questions  for  your  consideration;  I  will  state 
to  you  as  fully  as  I  can  all  the  evidence  that 


809] 


for  High  Treakon. 


has  been  given,  both  for  and  against  the  pri- 
soner: and,  as  I  go  through  thut  evidence, 
I  shall  make  such  observations  to  you  £ls  oc- 
cur to  my  mind;  because  I  hold  it  to  be  the 
indispensable  duty  of  the  Court,  to  assist,  and 
not  to  mislead  or  confound  a  jury  in  their  en- 
quiry. But,  before  I  mako  any  observation 
to  you  upon  the  evidence,  I  must  tell  you, 
that  you  ought  not  to  adotrt  an^  one  observa- 
tion that  falls  from  me  oecause  it  is  mine : 
you  are  to  exercise  your  own  judgments  upon 
the  subject;  and,  it  you  don't  agree  with  me. 
in  the  observations  which  you  hear  from  mc, 
reject  them  all,  and  form  your  own  opinions 
entirely  upon  the  evidence. 

[His  lordship  now  summed  up  the  evidence 
for  the  crown^  and  then  proceeaed  thus :] 

Now,  gentlemen,  this  is  the  evidence  on 
the  part  of  the  prosecution ;  and  it  will  be 
neoQSsary  for  you  to  see,  that  some  one  of  the 
acts  charged  upon  him  is  proved  by  two  wit- 
nesses ;  or  otherwise,  that  two  distinct  acts 
are  proved,  each  of  them  by  one  witness :  for, 
if  two  acts  are  proved,  one  by  one  witness, 
and  another  by  another,  that  is  as  much  as 
the  law  requires. 

The  most  material  witness,  and  the  man 
who  has  given  you  the  longest  and  the  most 
particular  account  of  the  conduct  of  the  pri- 
soner, is  Lutterloh ;  and  his  credit  has  been 
attacked  a  sood  deal  by  argument ;  and  some 
witnesses  have  been  called  to  induce  you  to 
believe  that  he  ought  not  to  receive  any  cre- 
dit at  your  hands.  What  credit  he  may  or 
may  not  deserve,  is  for  you  alone  to  decide : 
bu^  in  deciding  that,  you  must  consider  all 
the  evidence  that  has  been  given  by  other 
persons  respecting  the  facts  which  he  has 
sworn  to;  sindju^^,  upon  the  whole,  whe- 
ther the  account  given  oy  him  is  so  substan- 
tiated that  you  will  give  credit  to  it.  He  has 
fiven  you  a  very  long  Account  of  himself :  he 
oes  not  seem  to  have  kept  back  any  thing 
Jt^specting  his  own  condition,  even  in  times 
of  his  greatest  distress ;  and  the  witnesses 
that  have  been  called  against  him,  donH  go 
fio  far  as  to  say  that  they  think  he  ought  not 
to  be  believed. 

For  the  pfoseciition  they  have  produced 
the  letters,  which  tae  proved  by  other  wit- 
i^esses,  as  well  as  by  him;  to  be  the  hand- 
writing of  the  prisoner ;  which  letters  speak 
of  the  transactions  that  Lutterloh  has  given 
an  account  of;  and  if  the  account  given  by 
him  be  confirmed  by  a  letter  under  the 
prisoner's  hand  proved  by  another  witness, 
though  by  nothing  else,  that  will  give  him  a 
de^ee  of  credit,  and  will  also  be  sufficient  to 
satisfy  the  requisition  of  the  law,  which  says 
there  must  be  two  witnesses  to  prove  a  charge 
of  treason.  Many  of  the  letters  were  found 
Secreted  in  Lutterloh' s  garden;  they  were 
i>uried  in  that  garden ;  tney  were  found  in 
consequence  of  an  information  eiven  by  him ; 
;and  they  are  proved  to  be  in  uie  hand-writ- 
ing of  the  prisoner.    Those  letters  speak  fully 


A.  D.  1781.  [810 

of  the  purpose  for  which  Lultterloh  was  em- 
ployed, what  intelligence  he  was  to  get,  and, 
when  he  had  eot  it,  what  use  he  was  to  make 
of  it.  The  other  two  letters,  which  I  read  to 
you  last,  are,  upon  this  part  of  the  case,  like- 
wise material,  as  thev  tend  to  confirm  the  ao* 
count  which  Lutterlon  has  given ;  because  in 
those  letters  ^which  were  sent  to  the  post-of- 
fice by  the  prisoner,  and  directed  to  M.  Gro- 
lay)  he  dves  an  account  of  the  state  of  the 
smps  wnich  then  were  at  Portsmouth,  of 
those  which  had  sailed  under  sir  Samuel ' 
Hood,  and  of  the  force  at  that  time  within 
this  kingdom,  and  likewise  of  the  force  that 
had  been  sent  to  America. 

The  counsel  on  the  part  of  the  prisoner  have 
first  objected,  that  similitude  of  hand^^riting 
is  no  evidence.  They  certainly  are  right  in 
that  argument ;  but  the  objection  does  not 
applv  to  this  case.  Similitude  of  hand-writing 
i»  were  a  paper  is  produced,  not^wom  to  by 
any*  body  that  has  ever  seen  him  write,  or  has 
any  knowledge  of  his  hand ;  but  the  inference 
is  made  that  it  \^  his  hand-writing,  because  it 
is  tike  some  other  which  is  so :  but  that  is  not 
the  evidence  that  has  been  offered  to  you  re- . 
specting  any  one  of  the  papers  which  you 
have  heard  read :  they  have  all  been  proved 
by  persons  who  were  acquainted  with  his 
hana- writing ;  every  one  or  t^em  is  proved  bv 
Lutterloh ;  all  but  two  by  Le  Cointe,  and  au 
but  three  by  the  witness  Bauer;  each  of 
whom  had  seen  the  prisoner  write.  They 
speak  not  fix>m  the  similitude  of  the  writing 
onI}r,  but  firom  their  knowledge  of  his  han(f 
writing,  havhig  seen  the  prisoner  write  before; 
and  from  that  knowledge  they  say  thev  be- 
lieve the  letters  and  papers  are  of  his  hand- 
writing. That,  gentlemen,  is  the  only  evi- 
dence which  can  be  given  of  hand-writing, ' 
except  it  happens  that  there  be  a  person  whd 
saw  the  prisoner  actually  write  the  paj^rs. 
And  this  kind  of  evidence  has  been  received 
in  many  cases  before  :  it  was  so  received  in 
the  case  of  Dr.  Hensey,*  which  was  mention- 
ed by  the  counsel ;  and  in  many  older  c^ses 
the  same  mle  has  previdled. 

There  is  no  such  distinction  as  the  counsel 
for  the  prisoner  attempted  to  make  between 
that  which  is  legal  evideiice  in  a  civil  action, 
and  in  a  criminafprosecution :  that  which  is 
evidence  in  one,  is  evidence  in  the  other;  and 
in  one  of  the  cases  for  high  treason,  wherp  the 
letters  were  proved  in  the  same  manner  that 
they  have  been  now,  th»  Chief  Justice  says,  it 
is  me  common  case  of  provisg  a  man's  mind- 
writing,  which  is  done  every  day  in  an  action 
between  party  and  party.  You  are  told,  that 
you  ought  ndt  to  believe  that  this  is  the  hand- 
writing of  the  prisoner,  because  one  of  the 
witnesses,  namely  Bauer,  was  not  very  con* 
versant  with  his  hand-writine;  for  he  had 
seen  him  write  only  twice.  That  witness  said 
he  had  seen  the  prisoner  write  only  twice ; 
but  from  thence  he  Veils  you  he  is  able  to  form 

*  Vol.  19,  p.  1341. 
t 


iftll]    4        81GE0K6£  III. 

an  opinion  of  the  hand-writing,  and  that  he 
believes  it  to  be  the  hand-writing  of  the  pri- 
soner. Upon  the  question  of  the  hand-writ- 
ing you  have  the  evidence  of  three  persons, 
who  swear  they  are  acouainted  with  his  hand ; 
^d  Uiey  believe  that  ine  several  papers  which 
were  shewn  to  them,  except  two  or  three, 
which  are  not  very  material,  are  all  of  the  pri- 
soner's hand-writiii£.  Those  three  are  also 
proved  by  Lutterloh  to  be  written  by  the  pri- 
soner ;  he  swears  he  actuall v  saw  the  prisoner  ' 
write  many  of  them.  On  the  other  hand^you 
have  not  a  single  witness  called,  who  sa^s  he 
does  not  believe  them  to  be  the  hand-writing 
of  the  prisoner ;  and  therefore  this  part  of  the 
evidence  stands  uncontradicted. 

His  lordship  now  stated  the  evidence  for 
the  prisoner,  and  then  proceeded  thus : 

These- are  the  three  witnesses  called  to  im- 
peach the  credit  of  Lutterloh.  The  witness 
Lappel  said  he  rather  doubted  whether  he 
would  trust  or  believe  him. 

The  counsel  for  the  defendant  did  not  put 
the  question  in  the  manner  the  question  al- 
ways is,  and  ought  to  be  put,  if  they  mean  to 
impeach  the  veracity  of  a  witness ;  and  every 
day's  experience  teaches  the  gentlemen  at  the 
Inr  how  they  ought  to  put  the  question, 
if  they  think  the  answer  will  serve  their 
purpose ;  for  the  question  was  never  asked  of 
any  witness,  whether  he  thought  this  man 
from  his  general  character,  deserved  to  be  be- 
lieved upon  his  oath.  The  only  question  at 
all  like  that  was4)ut  to  Lappel,  wiu  this  addi- 
tion, whether  ht  would  trust  or  believe  him. 
As  to  the  other  witnesses,  they  were  never 
asked  the  question  at  all;  and  Mr.  Wildman 
tells  you,  during  the  time  Lutterloh  was  with 
him,  he  behaved  extremely  well ;  and  he 
clears  him  from  any  imputation  of  beine  con- 
cerned in  the  roisfoitune  that  amended  him 
whilst  Lutterloh  was  with  him. 

Then,  in  deciding  what  credit  you  will  ^ve 
.to  the  witness  Lutterloh,  you  are  likewise  to 
examine  all  the  other  facts  which  have  been 
given  in  evidence;  and  the  different  paper 
writings,  that  have  been  produced  under  the 
hand  of  the  prisoner,  are  all  circumstances  for 
you  to  take  into  your  conuderation  in  the 
oeedit  that  you  will  give  to  him ;  for,  if  you 
find  that  his  evidence  is  confirmed  and  sup- 
ported by  other  evidence,  it  will  be  a  ground 
for  you  to  give  credit  to  what  he  has  said. 
But,  whether  you  will  give  credit  to  him  or 
not,  is,  as  I  tola  you  before,  a  matter  for  your 
decision..  If  you  give  credit  to  him,  and  be- 
lieve that  these  letters  are  the  hand-writing 
of  the  prisoner,  there  are  then  two  witnesses 
to  prove  the  act  of  hiring  Lutterloh  for  the 
purpose  of  j)rocuring  intelligence  to  be  sent 
abroad. 

Tliere  is,  distinct  from  that  evidence,  the 
account  which  you  have  had  from  the  witness 
Ratcltfie,  supported,  as  you  have  heard,  in 
part  by  Mr.  Stewart,  with  respect  to  the  em- 
ployment that  he  had  iu)der  the  prisoner;  and 


Trial  qfF.  H.  De  la  Moiie, 


[819 


he  tells  you,  that  the  sums  which  he  received 
were  very  considerable,  and  that  he  had /a 
settled  allowance  for  every  trip  whidi  he 
took.  On  the  part  of  tlie  prisoner,  it  is 
said,  that  this  man  was  employed  only  to  send 
wares  which  the  prisoner  had  bought  at  dif- 
ferent places,  prints  which  were  v^uable  of 
their  soit,  and  things  which  he  had  purdiased 
at  Birmingham.  It  Ratdiffe  was  employed 
only  to  carry  such  packages  and  goods,  most 
undoubtedly  that  does  not  amount  to  any 
j)roof  of  his  being  hired  by  the  prisoner  to 
carry  intelligence  to  the  enemy :  but  you  will 
consider  the  sums  which  were  allowed  to  him 
for  the  trips  which  he  made,  the  agreement 
which  is  proved  as  to  the  regularity  and  the 
firequency  of  his  going,  and  tlut,  at  some  of 
the  times  when  packages  were  sent  down  to 
Canterbury,  nothing  e^  was  sent  with  them. 

Thus  stands  the  evidence  as  to  the  hiring 
of  the  two  persons  whose  names  you  have 
heard,  namely,  Ratcliffe  and  Lutterloh :  and 
upon  either  of  these  parts  of  the  case,  if  you 
should  be  of  opinion  they  were  hired  by  the 
prisoner  for  the  purpose  of  conveying  intelli* 
gepce  of  the  destination  of  our  fleets,  or  the 
strength  of  the  army  and  navy,  to  the  enemy, 
the  overt  act  is  proved,  which  constitutes  that 
species  of  treason  which  the  prisoner  is  charg-» 
ed  with. 

But,  besides  that,  there  are  the  two  letters 
which  I  mentioned  to  you  last,  and  which  are 
proved  to  be  in  the  hand-writing  of  the  pri- 
soner, and  put  into  the  post-office,  that  they 
were  taken  from  thence,  and  that  they  were 
directed  to  Grolay,  who  lived  in  Paris.  If  the 
case  stood  upon  this  evidence  only,  it  would 
be  material  for  you  to  weigh  the  contents  of 
those  letters ;  for,  if  in  uiose  letters  he  has 
disclosed  the  state  of  the  navy  or  the  army  of 
this  coimtry  to  the  French,  though  they  never 
were  received,  yet,  being  written  by  mm  for 
that  purpose,  and  put  into  the  post-office, 
though  intercepted,  they  do  amount  to  an 
overt  act  of  tl)e  two  species  of  treason  charged. 
That  was  the  evidence  in  the  case  of  Dr.  Hen- 
sey,  and  in  several  other  cases  before  that. 
It  was  solemnly  decided  ,by  all  the  judges  of 
England  in  the  Case  of  Gregg,*  that,  though 
the  letters  were  intercepted,  yet,  if  they  were 
written  by  the  prisoner  for  the  purpose  of 
conveying  intelligence,  the  crime  as  to  him 
was  complete ;  for  he  by  that  means  had  done 
every  thing  in  his  power,  and  the  treason  was 
complete  on  his  part,  though  it  had  not  the 
effect  intended ;  and  therefore,  if  these  two 
letters  do  convey  intelligence,  or  were  meant 
to  convey  intelligence,  to  the  enemy^  of  the 
state  of  the  army  and  the  navy  of  tms  coun* 
try,  if  the  case  stood  upon  them  alone,  the 
overt  act  would  be  proved. 

Now,  having  read  these  letters  to  you  be* 
fore,  I  shall  only  state  to  you  generally,  that 
one  of  them  mentions  at  what  time  dif- 
ferent East-India  ships  are  to  sail,  some  of 

•  Vol  14,  p,  1371. 


813] 


Jbr  High  Treason* 


which  had  already  gone  round  from  Graves- 
end,  and  that  others  were  expected  to  sail 
within  six  or  eight  days;  the  number  of  regi- 
ments which  were  destined  i^v  the  West-^In- 
dies;  what  preparation  is  making  for  the 
'  convoys,  when  those  convoys  are  to  sail,  and 
where  they  are  to  go ;  the  number  of  elective 
men  which  will  be  in  North  America  and 
Canada;  that  another  convoy  is  to  sail  from 
Ork ;  when  other  Indian  ships  a&e  expected 
to  return  from  India,  and  particularly  the 
number'  and  size  of  the  -ships  which  were 
stationed  off  the  Isle  of  Wight :  and  in  that 
letter  he  compares  the  strength  of  the  fieet, 
as  then  in  England,  to  what  the  fleet  was  at 
Brest,  or  what  the  fleet  in  England  would  be 
-when  other  ships  returned  here.  In  the  other 
letter  he  states  that  sir  Samuel  Hood  had 
sailed  the  Thursday  l)efore;  he  states  how 
many  ships  of  the  line  he  had  sailed  with ; 
and  he  states  that  other  vessels,  which  are 
goine  to  Gibraltar,  are  to  sail  with  admiral 
Hood  to  a  certain  latitude.  These  are  the 
^ts  which  are  disclosed  by  the  prisoner  in 
the  two  letters  sent,  or  directed,  to  Grolay ; 
4nd,  as  I  told  you  just  now,  upon  these  two 
letters,  if  you  are  satisfied  with  the  proof  that 
ttey  are  the  prisoner's  hand-writing,  and 
t^t  they  were  sent  or  put  into  the  post- 
office  by  him  for  the  purpose  of  conveying  such 
intelligence  to  the  enemy,  upon  that  ground 
alone  you  will  be  obliged- to  find  the 'prisoner 
guilty. 

Wkh  respect  to  liUtterloh,  I  forgot,  in  go- 
ing through  the  evidence,  to  state  to  you  one 
fact  which  is  very  material  in  itself,  and  which 
fikewisc  tends  very  strongly  to  confirm  his 
evidence;  and  that  is,  the  contents  of  the 
papers  which  were  found  upon  the  person  of 
the  prisoner.  Those  papers  were  the  hand- 
writmg  of  Lutterloh  himself:  the  prisoner 
was  not  at  home. the  night  before  he  was  ap- 
prehended :  the  gentleman  who  came  up  from 
Wickham  tells  you,  that  he  saw  the  prisoner 
at  Wickham  not  above  a  day  or  two  before 
the  time  that  he  heard  that  the  prisoner  was 
taken  up.  Then,  a  day  or  two|kf^r  the  pri- 
soner was  with  Lutterloh  at  Wickham,  he  is 
apprehended  in  London,  with  papers  in  his 
pocket,  written  by  Lutterloh,  containing  an 
account  of  all  .the  ships  that  were  at  Ports- 
mouth, or  at  Spitbead,  or  that  had  sailed^  or 
vere  intended  to  sail  soon. 

It  is  for  you  to  lay  all  this  evidence  toge- 
ther ;  and  if  you  are  satisfied  upon  either  of 
the  three  heads  which  I  have  mentioned  to 
you,  namely,  that  the  prisoner  did  hire  the 
two  persons  Ratclifie  and  Lutterloh^  or  either 
of  tnem,  for  the  purpose  of  conveying  intelli- 
gence to  the  enemy,  that  Is  an  overt  act  of 
treason;  or  if  you  are  not  satisfied  of  that, 
and  are  satisfied  that  he  did  collect  intel- 
ligence of  the  nature  which  you  have  h^urd, 
for  the  purpose  of  sending  it,  that  also  is  a 
complete  overt  act  of  treason ;  or,  in  th^  third 
place^  if  you  are  satisfied  that  he  sent  those 
two  lettws  to  tfaf  posV^Sce  for  the  Mine 


A.D.  1781.  [814 

purpose,  that  also  is  another  and  completie 
overt  act  by  itself:  and  in  either  of  these 
cases  you  must  find  the  prisoner  guilty.  On 
the  other  hand,  if  you  do  not  believe  that  the 
information  of  the  state  oi  our  fleets  and  ar- 
mies, and  their  destinations,  was 'gained  by 
bun  for  the  purpose  of  supplying  the  enemy 
with  it,  and  that  he  had  no  connexion  with 
RatciifFe  or  Lutterloh ;  or,  if  he  had  any  con« 
nexlon  with  them,  yet  that  it  was  not  for  the 
purpose  of  sending'advice  or  intelligence  to 
the  French,  but  merely  for  the  purpose  of 
sending  goods,  as  suggested  by  the  counsel, 
to  difiierent  pjaces ;  and  that  the  prisoner  did 
not,  by  the  two  letters  stopped  at  the  post- 
office,  mean  to  supply  the  enemy  with  such 
information  as  might  enable  them  to  annoy 
us,  or  defend  themselves;  in  that  caseyoti 
will  acquit  him. 

The  Trial  began  at  nine  o'clock  intbe  morn- 
ing ;  at  thirtv-nve  minutes  after  ten  at  night 
the  Jury  witndrew :  they  returned  into  coiut 
in  eight  minutes,  with  a  verdict  finding  the 
prisoner— Guilty* 

Sentence. 

Mr.  Justice  Buller.  Francis  Henry  De  la 
Motte,  the  oflence  of  which  you  stand  con- 
victed is  so  enormous,  and  the  danfferoua 
tendency  of  it  is  so  obvious  to  eveiy  body  who 
luis  heard,  or  who  may  hereafler  read  the 
transactions  of  this  day,  that  it  would  be  but 
mis-spendinjg  time  to  enlarge  upon  it.  It  is  - 
an  offence  for  which  every  state  under  the 
sun  has  a^eed  in  inflicting  the  most  exeni- 
plary  punishment. 

TherCiis  no  other  nation,  no  other  govern- 
ment under  heaven,  which  would  allow  to  a 
traitor  of  your  description  the  same  privileges, 
and  the  same  indulgences,  which  you  Imve 
ei^perienced,  during  tne  course  of  your  trial, 
at  this  bar.  You  have  had  a  long,  a  full,  and 
patient  trial :  vou  have  had  the  assistance  of 
such  of  the  advocates  at  the  British  bar,  as 
you  yourself  approved :  you  have  had  a  long 
previous  information  of'^the  names  of  those 
who  were,  to  decide  upon  your  ^It,  or  inno* 
cence;  and  you  have  had  information^  of 
^ual  length,  of  those  who  were  to  be  ad- 
duced as  witnesses  against  you.  These  are 
indulgencds  which  are  allowed  in  no  country 
but  in  England;  and  you,  though  a  foreigner, 
though  a  native  of  that  counuy  which  has 
harboured  an  old  inveterate  hatred  against 
this  kingdom,  and  which  is  now  at  war  with 
it,  have  yet  received  every  indulgence  which 
a  British  subject  could  enjoy.  But,  afler  all 
this^  you  have  not  been  abfe  to  oflfer  any  fair, 
specious,  or  credible  reason  for  the  conduct 
which  you  have  pursued.  During  your  resi- 
dence in  this  country,  as  well  as  during  the 
course  of  your  trial,  you  have  received  the 
protection  of  the  laws  of  the  land.  As  such, 
you  owed  a  du^  to  those  laws,  tod  aa  alle-    , 

giance  to  the  king  whose  laws  they  are  ;*  but 

-  - --    -    I--  I--  — —     ■  ■-  -^— ^— 

•  8seSMt*sPliMefthtCr(mii)«»f,44. 


615] 


22  GEORGE  IIL 


Trial  ^Dmd  Tifrie, 


[81« 


you  have  thoug^ht  fit  to  abuse  that  protectiou 
which  you  received.  The  law  of  this  coun- 
try, though  slower  in  its  progress,  and  more 
cautious  in  tracing  out  the  unerring  path  of 
truth  than  the  laws  of  most  other  countries, 
is  not  less  sure  than  they  are  in  detecting 
guilt;  and,  when  jguilt  of  such  enormity  as 
yours  is  detected,  the  law  must  take  its  course. 
You  have,  by  great  and  immense  bribes,  cor- 
rupted others  to  join  you,  within  the  very 
bowels  of  this  country,  to  become  traitors 
'  agaihst  it,  and  to  endeavour,- as  much  as  you 
could,  to  ruin  the  constitution,  and  to  render 
a  land  of  liberty  and  of  freWom,  of  justice 
and  of  mercy,  subject  to  the  most  arbitrary 
sway  of  its  inveterate  foe.  In  such  a  case 
therefore  as  yours,  you  must  expect  to  receive, 
from  an  English  court  of  justice,  that  punish- 
tnent  which  every  country  would  indict  for 
the  sam^  offence.  Such  cQbrts  as  yours  have 
hitherto  proved  ineffectual,  and  I  trust  in  God 
they  ever  will.  But  the  safety  of  the  state 
requires  that  you  should  be  made  an  example 
of,  to  deter  others  from  iheriting  that  idte 
which  awaits  yoii. 

The  sentence  of  the  law  in  your  case  is, 
and  this  Court  doth  adjudge, 

*  That  you  be  drawn  upon  a  hurdle  to  the 

*  place  of  execution ;  that  you  be  there  handed 

*  by  the  neck,  but  not  untd  you  are  dead ;  but 
'  that,  being  alive,  you  be  cut  down,  and 
f  your  bowels  taken  out  and  burnt  before 
<  your  face ;  that  your  head  be  severed  from 


^  your  body,  and  your  body  divided  into  four 
'  parts;  and  that  your  ^ead  and  quarters  b^ 
'  disposed  of  as  the  king  shall  think  £t :  and 
^  may  the  Lord  have  mercy  on  your  soul  V 


^^  The  prisoner  received  the  awful  doom 
with  great  composure,  but  inveighed  ag^uusl 
Mr.  Lutterloh  in  warm  terms. 

'<  It  is  said  Uiat  in  the  last  war,  he  was 
colonel  of  the  regiment  of  Soubise,  and  be- 
haved  on  several  occasions  with  gallantry. 
Upon  the  conclusion  of  the  war  his  regimient 
was  broke ;  soon  afler  which  the  title  of  baroip 
Deckham  [qu.  d*Akerman],  with  an  hereditary 
estate,  devolved  to  him.  ILaving  lived  beyond 
the  limits  of  his  fortune,  ^e  retired  to  Eng- 
land some  few  years  since,  where  he  has  con- 
tinued to  reside  till  the  commission  of  tba^ 
act  which  he  b  to  expiate  by  the  forfeit  of  his 
life.  .    ^ 

*'  His  behaviour  throughout  the  whole  of 
this  trying  scene  exhibited  a  combination  of 
manliness,  steadiness,  and  presence  of  miod. 
He  appeared  at  the  same  time  polite,  condo^ 
scenaing,  and  unaffected,  and,  we  presume, 
could  never  have  stood  so  firm  and  collected, 
at  so  awful  a  moment,  if,  while  he  felt  him- 
^If  justly  convicted  as  a  traitor  to  the  state 
which  ^ve  him  protectiop,  he  had  not,  howi> 
ever  mistakenly,  felt  a  conscious  innocence 
within  his  own  breast,  that  he  had  devoted 
his  life  to  the  service  of  his  country." 

Annual  Register,  1781,  p.  185. 


!'»■»■  v^^r^^^f^mrr't^'r^^n^^^^m 


665.  The  Trial*  of  David  Tyrie^  for  High  Treason^  at  the  Assizes 
at  Winchester^  held  by  Adjournment  on  Saturday^  August  the 
10th ;  Before  the  Hon.  John  Heathy  esq.  one  of  the  Justices 
of  his  Maj^ty's  Court  of  Common-Pleds :  ^  George  IIL 
A.  D.  1782. 


David  TYEIE  was  indicted  for  fais(»ly, 
wkk^ly,  and  traitorously,  (being  a  subj^t  <if 
Oceat  Britain)  compassing^  ijnag^ning>  aod 
inteadiixg,  the  king  of  and  from  the  royal 
state,  crown,  title,  pow^,  4uid  sovemn»«nt  of 
Great  Britain,  to  depose  and  wnoUy  derive ; 
mid  the  king  to  kill,  and  bring  and  put  to 
death;  and  to  ful^,  periSsct,  and  bring  to  ef- 
fect, his  traa^QO.  coiA(A9sinK8,  wd  iniagina- 
tioQs,  as  such  false  traitor,  wisely,  wickedly, 
and  Haitorously  compo9iae  and  writing,  aoa 
^uising  to  bo  composed  ana  wrote,  divers  let- 
tea  nm  instructions  in  writing,  to  shew  and 
inform  Lewis  the  French  king,  (who  fijur  a 
Jane  time,  and  still  carries  on  and  prosecutss, 
1^  land  and  by  sea,  an  open  aodiHuMic  war 
j^nst  our  present  kins)  and  his  subjects, 
«P(e]iiies  of  our  king,  of  the  &tatit«s  of  div«iss 


4MM 


«  MLtain  Shflft4Md  by  #o«pk  Gfloey. 


squadrons  of  ships  of  war  of  our  king,  eow 
ployed  in  prosecuting  and  carrying  on  said 
war;  and  also  of  the  service  in  which  divers 
other  sliips  of  war  of  our  king  were  then  en^- 
ployed  in  prosecuting  and  carrjring  on  said 
war ;  and  also  of  the  times  of  saiiinjg  of  divers 
ships  of  war  of  our  king,  and  the  destination 
of  said  $hips,  and  the  services  in  whieh  such 
ships  were  employed ;  and  of  the  tinies  when 
other  ships  of  war  of  our  king  were  then  ex- 
pected to  sail  from  this  kingdom,  and  Uie 
voy^s,  cruises,  apd  services,  upon  which 
such  smps  were  expected  to  sail ;  and  alao  of 
the  times  when  otner  ships  of  war  of  our 
king,  employed  in  the  prosecutioa  and  canjr- 
ing.on  of  s^id  war,  wese  expected  to  arrive  in 
this  kingdooi;  and  alao  the nunberand  foioe 
of  divers  shi^s  of  war  of  our  king,  within 
certain  ports  of  this  kngdoBi,  and  of  the 
slate  m  oottdition  of  ^mal  of  and  ahtfMt 


BIT] 


for  High  Treason, 


A.  D.  1782. 


[818 


med  also  of  the  times  of  sailing  of  divei's  other 
ships  and  vessels  of  our  king,  from  this  king- 
dom, to  the  dominions  of  our  king,  and  other 
places,  in  parts  beyond  the  seas ;  and  during 
said  war,  as  such  false  traitor,  in  prosecution 
b(  his  treasoti  and  treasonable  jinirposes, 
falsely,  wickedly,  and  traitorously  comnosing 
and  writing,  and  causing  and  procuring  to  be 
composed  knd  wrote,  a  letter  to  be  sent  to 
sObjects  of  said  Firench  king,  in  parts  beyond 
the  seas,  enemies  of  our  king ;  in  which  said 
letter  said  David  Tyrie  (among  other  things) 
wickedly,  falsely,  and  traitorously  notified, 
disclosed,  and  revealed,  to  said  enemies  of 
our  king,  that  a  squadron  of  ships  of  war  of 
our  kins,  consisting  of  the  Arethusa,  La  Pru7 
dente,  Monsiear,  and  Recovery,  iiij^ates,  had 
sailed  from  Spithead,  on  second  ofFebruary, 
(tileaiBng  second  of  Febniaiy  last)  and  were 
then  employed  in  prosecuting  and  carrying  dn 
said  war  off  Cape  La  Hogue  in  France :  "and 
Sn  {mother  of  said  accounts  or  lists,  said 
David  Tyri^  false] v,  wickedly,  and  traitorously, 
notified,  disclosed,  and  revealed,  to  said  ene- 
mies of  our  kii^,  tlie  times  of  the  sailing  and 
destination  of  divers  other  ships  of  war  of  our 
king,  which  had  lately  beibre  that  time  sailed 
from  this  kingdom  for  the  purpose  of  convoy- 
ing the  £ast  and  West  India  fleets,  and  other 
^hips  ^ongjing  to  subjects  of  our  king;  and 
idso  the  stations  of  divers  ships  of  war  of  our 
Idn^,  then  cruizing  on  the  Frtoch  cOadt, 
^gamst  the  enemies  of  our  king :  and  in  ano- 
ther of  said  accounts  or  lists,  said  David  T^e 
wisely,  wickedly,  abd  traitorously,  notihed, 
dIsckxMid,  and  revealed,  to  said  enemies  of 
out  king,  the  number,  state,  condition,  and 
force,  oi  divers  oth^r  ships  of  war  of  our  king, 
flmptoyed  in  prosecuting  arid  carrying  on  said 
war,  and  ^e  times  when  such  ships  were  ex-  j 
t^ectfed  to  sail  from  this  kingdom,  and  the 
Ti^agea,  cruizes,  and  servicies,  upon  which 
fiBuehalaps  w^re  expected  to  sail;  and  also 
the  dmi^s  when  divei^  other,  ships  of  war  of 
cat  king,  emptdyfed  in  prosecuting  and  carry- 
'  ^  On  sidd  war,  were  expected  to  arrive  m 
kingdom ;  and  also  the  num'ber  and  force 
the  ships  of  war  of  our  Jung  then  repairing 
in  forts  within  this  kingdom:  and  during 
sflia  war,  said  David  T^e,  as  such  &Ise  trai- 
tor, in  prosecution  of  his  treason  and  treason- 
able purposes,  falselv,  wickedly,  and  traito- 
foiisly,  composed  and  wrote,  and  caused  and 
pnoxteA  to  be  composed  and  wrote,  an  ac- 
imait  or  state,  to  be  sent  to  subjects  of  said 
French  kine ;  in  which  said  account  or  state, 
laid  David  Tvrie  notified,  disclosed,  and  re-' 
Vi^akd,  to  said  endofties  of  our  ^ing,  the  num- 
ber, and  tiiHe  of  saifmg,  of  ships  dr  vessels  of 
our  kmg,  employed  as  transports,  store  ships^ 
tfod  victilaJleri,  mr  the  purpose  of  prosecuting 
and  earrying  on  said  war ;  and  during  said 
-mjt,  mi  Daggid  Tyite,  as  such  iklse  tr^tor,  iii 
pti^HM6on  of  his  treason  atld  treasonable 
]Hirp08es,  falsely,  maliciously,  i;^ickedly,  and 
traitorously,  coisAposdd  and  wrote,  ^nd  cau^ 
And  procured  tb  be  composed  aAd  wrote^  ano- 
VOL.  XXL 


ther. letter,  to  be  sent  to  subjects  of  said 
French  king,  in  pairts  beyond  the  seas,  ene- 
mies of  OUT  king,  in  which  last-mentioned 
lettef*  said  David  Tyrie  (amongst  other  things) 
falsely,  wickedly,  and  traitorously,  notified, 
disclosed,  and  revealed,  to  said  enemies  of  our 
king,  the  number,  and  times  of  sailing,  of 
certain  ships  or  vessels  belonging  to  subjects 
of  our  king,  firom  this  kingdom  to  the  domi- 
,  nions  of  our  king  and  other  places  in  parts 
beyond  the  seas :  and  said  David  Tyrie,  in 
prosecution  of,  and  to  promote  his  treason, 
mlag^lation8,  and  compassings  aforesaid, 
falsely,  wickedlv,  and  traitorously^,  did  send, 
and  procure  to  be  sent,  all  and  singular  said 
several  letters,  instrucUons  in  writing,  ac- 

parts 
said 

that  during  saH  war,  said  David  Tyrie,  as 
such  false  traitor,  and  in  prosecution  of  his 
said  treason  and  treasonable  purposes^  falsely, 
wickedly,  and  traitorously,  did  retam,  hire, 
and  procure,  and  cause  to  be  retained,  hired, 
and  procured,  WilUam  James,  to  carry  and 
convey  from  this  kingdom  unto  the  kingdom 
of  France,  and  there  to  deliver  to  subjects  of 
said  French  king,  enemies  of  our  king,  cer- 
tain letters,  instructions  in  writing,  to  inform 
said  French  king  and  his  subjects,  enemies  of 
our  king,  of  the  state,  condition,  destinatioh, 
and  stations,  of  the  naval  forces  of  the  king- 
dom,  and  other  advice  and .  intelligence,  to 
enable  and  assist  said  French  king,  arid  hBs 
subjects,  in  the  prosecution  and  carrying  on 
of  said  war  against  our  kine  and  his  subjects 
——against  bis  duty,  and  auegiahce,  &c.  and 
against  the  statute,  at  Gospbrt,  imh  of  Fe- 
bruary last,  and  on  other  days  and  times,  ais 
Welt  before  as  after. 

Second  CoUnt,  For  unlawfully  and  traito- 
rously adhering  to  the  king's  enemies. 

The  Prisoner  having  pleaded  Not  Guilty 
to  the  indictment,  the  i^annel  was  called  ovcar 
ty  thd  Clerk  of  Arraigns;  when  the  Pri- 
soner's Counsel  bavins  peremptorily  chal- 
lenged thirty-five  of  the  Jurors,  and  the 
Counsel  for  the  Crown  three,  the  following 
w^re  sworn. 

Richard  Dicker,  John  Wade, 

William  Knowles,  Richard  Moody, 

James^  Butter  worth,  Thomas  Figes, 

Thomas  Wilsted,  William  Onst, 

John  Godsall,  William  Edney, 

John  Tidcomb,  John  Atkins. 

Coumcl/or  the  Croam, — Mr.  Morris,  Mr. 
Serj.  Grose,  Mr.  Batt. 

Counsel  Jot  the  Prisoner. — Mr.  Watson. 

*  That  Uie  writing  and  Rending  bqcIi  letlcni,  &o. 
with  sacli  an  intent,  although  the  letters,  &c.  were 
intercepted,  and  did  not  reach  their  destination,  are 
overt  acttf  of  compa^sin^  and  imagining  the  deiith  of 
the  king,  and  aliio* of  adhering  to  the  king*t»  enemies, 
■ee  Gregg's  Case,  vol.  14,  p.  1371 ;  Hensey's  Case, 
vol.  19,  p.  1341;  De  la  Motte's  Case,  vol.  21,  p. 
687  ;  add  BaaVs  Pleas  of  the  Crown,  «h.  t,  a.  58. 

8  G 


819]  22  GEORGE  III. 

Evidence  for  the  Ckowv. 

Maria  Hervey  sworn. 

Examined  by  Mr.  Serjeant  Grou,^ 

Where  do  you  live? — In  Carvick'&-row, 
Scotland  yard. 

I  believe  you  keep  a  school  ?— -I  do. 

Do  you  remember  any  lady,  at  any  time, 
coming  to  you  with  some  papers  ?— «Yes ;  on 
Wednesday,  the  iSth  of  FeDruary. 

Who  was  she  ? — A  woman  who  called  her- 
self Askew. 

What  did  you  do  with  those  papers? — I 
inspected  into  them,  and  then  delivered  them 
up  to  a  gentleman  of  Westminster,  Mr.  Page. 

How  came  you  to  inspect  into  them? — 
From  various  reasons.  The  lady  gave  me 
reason,  from  what  she  ssud,  to  suspect  their 
beine  of  a  criminal  nature. 

What  were  those  reasons  ?— By  her  saying 
^  she  had  taken  three  coaches  to  bring  them ;' 
and  she  appeared  very  much  flurried.  She 
said,  '  the  gentleman  that  delivered  them  to 
her  was  in  trouble,  and  wished  to  get  them 
off.'  This  created  a  suspicion  in  me.  I  there- 
fore inspected  into  them ;  and  gave  them  all, 
on  the  same  day,  to  Mr.  Page. 

Cros»-examined  by  Mr.  Watfon, 

Had  you  any  acquaintance  with  Mrs. 
Askew  ?-— Very  Uttle :  I  had  seen  her  four  or 
five  difierent  times  before. 

Of  what  nature  was  your  acquaintance  with 
her  ? — ^Her  sister  sent  a  couple  of  youne 
ladies  to  school  to  roe,  for  education.  I  had 
seen  Mrs.  Askew  at  Mrs.  Smith's  lodeinss. 

Do  you  know  where  Mrs.  Askew  uvea  ? — 
No ;  not  when  first  I  became  to  have  some 
knowledge  oi  her. 

Did  she  give  any  other  reason  but  this  for 
intrusting  the  papers  to  you  ? — ^No.  She  be- 
fore had  told  me  she  had  something  to  in- 
trust with  me,  and  wanted  a  fiivounwle  op- 
portunity. 

How  long  was  that  before  ? — About  a  month 
or  six  weeks.  And  she  asked  me  which  was 
the  most  eligible  time  of  seeing  me  alone.  I 
told  her  my  nours  of  leisure. 

And  she  came  at  that  distance  of  time 
afterwards  ? — ^Yes. 

Do  you  recollect  pretty  perfectly  what  she 
sud  ? — ^**  Mrs*  Hervey,  I  have  something  to 
communicate  to  yoy,  and  wish  to  find  an  op- 
portunity of  telling  you."  When  she  came 
with  the  papers,  sne  ssdd,  she  would  tal:e  it 
as  a  favour  it*  I  would  take  particular  care  of 
these  papers;  and  she  hoped  1  would  not 
shew  tnem  to  any  person.  I  said,  No,  cer- 
tainly I  shall  not  shew  them ;  I  would  not 
shew  my  own  papers,  that  were  of  a  family 
nature;  and  certainly  should  not  shew  them. 

Had  she  explained  to  you  that  these  were 
papers  of  a  family  nature? — No;  \\xi  I 
thought  they  were  so. 

Hwl  not  she  told  you  they  were  some  con- 

*  Afterwards  one  of  the  iosticet  B.  R. 


Trial  of  David  TynV, 


[850 


cems  her  husband  did  not  know  of?  No ;  she 
told  me  no  such  thine. 

Recollect  accurate^  that  part  of  the  con- 
versation ?— ^he  said  na  such  thing.  The 
man,  she  said,  had  given  them  to  her ;  *  he/ 
she  sud.  I  said,  What,  Mr.  Tyrie  ?  She  said» 
Yes.  She  said,  if  Mr.  Tyrie  was  here,  be 
would  be  very  angry  with  you  for  calling  me 
Askew,  for  he  took  me  to  church  for  a  name. 

Did  she  not  tell  you  she  was  afraid  he 
should  knotir  of  these  papers  ? — No ;  she  said 
no  such  thing. 

You  said  she  expressed  considerable  anxiety  ? 
— Yes ;  and  was  very  much  flurried. 

And  said,  if  Mr.  lyrie  knew  of  your  calling 
her  Mrs.  Afikew,  he  would  be  very  angry  ? — 
Yes ;  but  I  said  she  had  never  passedby  any 
other  name  in  my  hearing. 

She  said  she  was  in  trouble,  and  wished  to 
get  rid  of  the  papers  ? — No;  she  said  he  was 
m  trouble. 

Aecollect  whether  you  did  not  understand 
from  her,  at  that  time,  that  Mr.  Tyrie  did  not 
know  any  thing  about  these  papers  ?— I  had 
every  reason  in  the  world  to  thmk  he  did. 

W  hat  are  those  reasons  ? — Her  saying  *  he/ 
immediately  upon  my  mentioning  Mr.  Tyrie*8 
name :  and  from  bavins  seen  Mr.  Tyrie ;  and 
from  knowing  that  she  lived  with  Mr.  Tyrie. 

Court.  Wlmt  did  you  say  about  what  pa^ed 
upon  your  mentioning  Mr.  Tyrie*s  name  ? — 
A.  She  said,  Yes.  She  «aid  they  came  from 
he.  I  wished  to  know  whether  it  was  he.  I 
had  seen  them  toother  at  her  sister's  house. 
I  said,  What,  Mr.  Tyrie  ?  She  said,  Yes. 

Mr.  Watson,  Upon  her  saving'  *  he'  would  be 
angry,  you  asked  who  *  he'  was ;  what,  Mr. 
Tyrie?— -4.  Yes. 

But  she  did  not  say  the  ps^rs  came  firam 
him  ? — ^No ;  she  did  not. 

Mr.  Serjeant  Grose,  When  she  said  *  he,' 
and  you  said,  What,  Mr.  Tyrie  ?  how  came  the 
name  of  Mr.  Tyrie  to  occur  to  you  ? — A,  Be- 
cause I  had  frequently  heard  her  sister  men- 
tion the  name  ot  Tyrie,  and  her  sister's  chiU 
dren  had  mentioned  it  in  my  school.  I  had 
heard  her  sister  mention  the  name  frecjuentiy . 

You  said  just  now  she  said  Mr.  Tyrie  would 
be  angiy  ?----She  never  mentioned  such  a 
word  as  his  anger  when  I  asked  if  Mr.  Tyrie 
gave  her  the  paperb';  then  she  made  no  an* 
swer. 

What  did  she  say  about  his  anger,  on  ac- 
count of  your  calling  her  Askew  ?— She  saki, 
*^  If  you  was  to  call  me  Askew  in  his  presence, 
he  would  be  angiy,"  When  she^gave  the 
papers,  she  said  he  had  delivered  them  to  her 
to  ect  them  off.  These  were  the  very  words. 
I  thought  it  astonishing  she  should  take  three 
coaches,  ^to  bring  papers.  J  asked  her  what 
that  meant :  for  she  ^d  she  took  three  dif- 
ferent coaches,  in  this  manner:  that  she 
stopoed  about  ten  minutes,  and  then  took 
another ;  for  that  he  was  in  a  great  deal  of 
trouble,  that  he  wished  to  get  them  off  safe, 
and  that  she  had  taken  that  method. ' 

What  did  you  say  next  after  that  ?-*!  do 


821] 


Jor  High  Treason. 


A.  D.  1782. 


[832 


not  recollect  that  I  made  any  reply  to  it.  I 
had  my  own  sentiments  upon  it.  I  thought 
there  was  something  very  bad.  When  I  said, 
whaty  Mr.  Tyrie  ?  she  was  then  silent  It  was 
exceeding  cold.  She  had  a  large  Brunswick 
great  coat  on.  I  said,  Madam,- you  have  a 
good  covering  a^nst  the  inclemency  of  the 
weather ;  for  it  is  very  severe.  She  sud,  she 
had  great  occasion  for  it;  for  she  travelled 
night  and  day.  I  said,  Travel  night  and  day  ! 
you  told  me  you  lived  at  RaneTagh :  that  is 
not  a  mat  way.  She  replied,  O  dear !  I  have 
come  five  hundred  miles. 

You  said  before,  that  she  said  he  was  in  a 
great  deal  of  trouble,  and  wished  to  get  them 
off  safe? 

Court,  What  that  woman  said  is  not  evi- 
dence. 

Mr.  Seij.  Groie.  Did  I  understand  you 
right,  that  you  had  seen  this  lady  and  Mr. 
Tyrie  together? — A,  Yes;  I  had  seen  them 
twice  together. 

Is  the  prisoner  that  person  ? — ^He  is. 

Mr.  Watson.  You  seem  to  have  mended 
your  evidence  in  this  last  account  of  it;  for 
the  account  ydu  gave  to  me  was,  you  called 
her  Mrs.  Askew :  upon  which  she  said,  if  he 
heard  you  call  me  Mrs.  Askew,  he  would  be 
angry.  That  was  a  part  of  your  evidence,  and 
the  point  to  which  you  applied  in  answering 
ray  questions  to  the  word  *  he.'  Now,  in  your 
answer  to  this  gentleman,  you  said  the  word 
*  he'  related  to  the  prisoner,  when  she  gave 
you  the  papers ;  that  '  he'  was  in  trouble,  and 
sent  them.  You  said  otherwise  to  me.  Which 
is  the  truth  ? — A.  She  did  not  say  she  brought 
them  from  Mr.  Tyrie.    She  said  '  he/ 

Court,  Had  you  been  talking  of  Mr.  Tyrie 
before? — A.  No. 

Mr.  Jonathan  Page  sworn. 
.   Examined  by  Mr.  Batt, 

Are  you  acquainted  with  the  last  witness  ? 
—1  am. 

Do  you  remember  Jier,  at  any  time,  shew- 
ing you  a  bundle  of  papers  ? — ^Yes. 

On  what  day  was  it  ?— In  the  evening  of 
the  ISth  of  Februaiy  last.  She  brought  the 
papers  to  me  late  m  the  evetiing.  She  did 
not  tell  me  the  nature  of  them  at  the  time, 
but  she  desired  I  would  look  at  them.  I  said, 
as  soon  as  I  was  at  leisure,  I  would  examine 
them.  It  was  rather  late  before  I  was  dis- 
engaged. Then  I  looked  them  over,  and  saw 
the  nature  of  them.  I  returned  them  to  her, 
and  told  her  I  would  consider,  against  next 
morning,  what  was  proper  to  be  done.  I  got 
up  earlv  next  morning;  and  went,  with  a 
constable,  lo  her  house.  I  took  the  papers 
from  her,  and  lefi  the  constable  there,  with  a 
charge  to  seisfe  any  person  who  should  come 
to  enquire  for  the  papers.  I  examined  the 
papers  fully,  marked  them,  and  then  dent  them 
to  a  gentleman  at  that  time  in  the  ministry, 
the  secretary  at  war.  He  resumed  them  in  a 
ehort  time  by  his  servant,  with  a  note :  in 
consequence  of  which  I  went  to  the  Admi- 


ralty with  these  papers;  and  saw  Mr.  Ste- 
phens. Afler  that,  we  went  to  the  office  of 
the  secretary  of  state ;  and  there  were  two  or 
three  meetmes  upon  these  papers,  and  the 
examining  of  them.  The  papers,  were  deli- 
vered at  tne  secretary  of  state's  office,  to  Mr. 
Fraser,  or  Mr.  Chamberlayne. 

Look  at  these  papers,  and  see  whether  the 
marks  upon  them  are,  or  are  not,  of  your 
making  ?— They  arc. 

Anq  they  were  marked  by  you  at  the  se^ 
cond  time  th^  were  put  into  your  hands'? — 
They  were.  They  are  from  No.  1,  to  No.  60 
I  believe. 

Mr.  John  Vawell  sworn. 
'       Examined  by  Mr.  Serjeant  Grote, 

Have  you  ever  seen  the  prisoner  write } — I 
have. 

Do  you  know  his  hand  writing  ? — I  do. 

Pick  out  such  of  those  papers  as  you  know 
to  be  hb  hand-writing.  Please  first  to  in- 
spect No.  1  to  No.  8,  which  are  intitled 
"  Progress  of  the  Navy." — ^These  papers, 
No.  1  to  8  appear  to  be  his  hand-writing. 

Mr.  John  Palmer  sworn. 

Examined  by  Mr.  Serjeant  Grose, 

Did  you  ever  see  Mr.  Tyrie  write  ? — I  have. 
Do  you  know  his  hand-writing  ? — ^I  do. 
Look  at  these  pa)>ers,  from  No.  1  lo  8  ? — I 
believe  these  to  be  his  hand-writing. 

Thomas  Flint  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Batt, 

I  believe  you  have  an  emplpyment  in  the 
Navy-office  ? — ^Yes,  I  have. 

In  what  particular  branch? — In  the  sur- 
veyor's office. 

Look  at  these  papers  (No.  1  to  Q),  are  they 
similar  to  papers  you  have  in  your  office  so 
intitled  ? — I  have  here  a  book  which  conta'ms 
the  progress  of  the  navy  for  the  whole  year. 

Where  is  that  book  kept  ? — It  is  kept  in  the 
office. 

Does  this  account  appear  to  be  a  copy  of 
that  book  ? — It  appears  to  be  an  exact  copy. 

What  is  the  date  of  the  list  you  are  looking 
at  ?— The  23d  of  November,  1781 . 

Now  cast  your  eye  over  them,  and  inform 
the  court  and  jury,  whether  you  find  it  corre- 
spond, or  find  any  difierence^  if  you  find  any 
difference,  say  what  that  difference  is.— I  have 
compared  it  with  what  is  done  in  his  majes- 
ty's yard  at  Deptford ;  it  exactly  corresponds : 
and  in  the  merchants'  vard,^ where  ships  are 
building.  At  Woolwich,  there  are  two  armed 
store-ships  in  my  book,  which  are  not  in  this ; 
but  these  are  things  of  no  manner  of  conse- 
quence. 

Mr.  Morris.  I  see  there  are  three  ships  at 
Deptford  less,  in  this  account,  than  in  your's ; 
they  are  trilling  things «  one  is  the  Hound 
sloop,  only  14  guns,  a  cutter,  and  a  yacht. 

In  that  list  which  has  been  proved  to  be  of 
the  prisoner's  hand-writing,  there  are  the 
names  of  the  captaii^  together  with  some 


«230 


22  GEOKGG  UI. 


Tml  qf  David  Tyrie, 


caii 


characters.  Are  those*  or  Qot,  oontained  in 
your  book? — ^They  are  not;  the  oames  of 
captains  are  never  contained  in  this. 

IIow  often  are  these  lists  made  out,  and 
sent  to  the  Navy-office  ? — Every  week. 

And  then  yoii  make  them  out  in  such  a 
book  as  you  have  now  before  you,  from  the 
respective  Usts  sent  from  the  different  yards? 
—Yes. 

Is  that  a  report  of  one  week  from  the  dif- 
ferent yards,  or  of  how  long  time  ?— rThis  I 
have  spoken  to  is  of  one  week  only. 

Look  at  the  paper  No.  S. — ^Tbat  is  without 
date. 

Is  it  such  a  paper  as  the  other  you  have 
spoken  to? — No.  There  are  more  ships  in 
this  account  than  we  have  in  the  original 
book  of  the  23d  of  November,  178],  if  it 
means  that  day. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Watmn. 

You  say  that  list  of  ships  resembles  the  list 
you  have,  only  with  small  variations  ?— It 
does. 

But  is  It  a  copy  of  your  account  ?  Does  it 
contain  the  observations,  for  instance,  which 
your*s  contains  ?— Nearly ;  and  I  dare  say  was 
to  answer  the  same  purpose.  It  is  the  pro- 
gress of  the  navy ;  and  this  is  a  list  of  the 
same  ships  that  I  mentioned  :  there  arc  one 
or  two  small  ships  indeed  different.  I  did 
not  look  farther  than  Deptford,  the  mer- 
chant's yards,,  and  Woolwich. 

Mr.  IVatson.  I  meant,  whether  it  contained 
your  official  observations. 

Mr,  Batt.  What  is  the  title  of  the  book?— 
A.  '<^  An  account  of  the  readiness  for  tlie  sea 
of  his  majesty's  ships  and  vessels  under  re- 
pair, and  of  those  building  and  rebuilding,  and 
of  such  as  lie  in  harbour."  The  book  con- 
tains more  than  the  title  imports ;  for  here 
are  all  the  ships  that  are  builciing  for  his  ma- 
jesty in  the  merchants'  yards,  which  is  not 
mentioned  in  the  title. 

Does  the  title  of  that  paper  you  have  look- 
ed at  correspond  with  the  title  of  your  book  ? 
— ^The  words  are  the  very  same. 

(Several  of  the  entries  were  read.) 

N*  XI. — (Proved  to  be  the  prisoner's  hand- 
writing). It  contained  a  ro^i^n  draught  of  a 
list  of  ships,  with  their  condition,  at  the  mer- 
chants' yards,  at  Portsmouth,  Plymouth, 
Woolwich,  Sheemess,  and  Harwich. 

N°  XIV.  and  XV.— (The  prisoner's  hand- 
writing). They  contained  a  list  of  the  navy 
of  Great  Britain,  in  numerical  order,  to  .No. 
2«1  ships,  from  the  Britannia  of  100  guns, 
down  to  the  Seaford,  with  the  number  of  guni» 
they  carry. 

N^  X VUI.--A  list  of  Ships,  not  in  the  pri- 
soner's hand-siting ;  but  a  remark  agamst 
one  of  them  in  the  prisoner's  hand-writint;,  in 
which  he  says,  "  Going  to  Mahon  or  Africa, 
lobe  met  by  the  convinr  with  troops.*^ 


N*"  XIX.— (The  t>ri8oner'8  band-icriting)- 
It  contained  a  list  of  tfaie  particul^ra  of  a  gn»t 
number  of  ships.  At  the  Wtoni, "  4th  Jan.  u> 
Mr.  Bpnt^er.    8th  Jan.  to  Mr:  Brodelet." 

,At  the  bottom  of  the  paper,  in  another 
hand,  were  wTitten  these  directions : 

"  For  Ostend.  A  Monsieur  JH  Neve,  i 
PHdtei  de  Ville,  pour  Mr.  Domiqique  Ia 
Moibe,  4  Ostend." 

*'  A  Monsieur  Bonnier,  chez  Mr.  Pufoiv/ 
SeUier,  Itue  de  la  Cue.  4  Boulogne." 

'<  Mons.  Brodelet,  Eue  St.  Fran$:ois  au  M^^, 
lia,  k  Paris." 

N**  XXt. — Another  direction  to  Mons.  Bon- 
nier, upon  a  separate  piece  of  paper. 

N<^  XXII. — (The  prisoner's  hand-writing^ 
Qomtained  a  list  of  $hip8  at  Spithead  on  Tfaur»- 
d»y  evening,  Jan.  94th,  mentiening  those, 
which  were  doming  into  harbour. 

N"  XXVI.  and  XXVII.— Cl'he  prisoner's 
hand-writing.) 

**  In  affiiirs  that  regard  the  navy  of  Eng- 
land, the  information  that  I  conceive  noceft- 
safv  for  the  regulation  of  your  triend,  may  lB« 
had  in  a  siunmary  way  from  the  Admiralty- 
office;  but  the  particulars  that  you  require 
must  come  from  the  difierent  depaitments  lor 
naval  a&urs. 

'Mst.  A  correct  list  of  the  iine-of-battlQ 
ships  in  ordinary,  with  their  state  and  condi- 
tion ;  together  with  the  frigates,  sloops,  and 
fire-ships.  This  may  be  got  from  the  Navy- 
office. 

**  5Sd.  Ditto  of  all  ships  of  war,  of  every 
denomination,  buikiiog  in  the  king's  and  pri- 
vate dock-yards ;  witn  the  contracted  tMM 
for  their  launch.  This  may  also  be  got  from 
N.  O. 

^  Sd.  Ditto  of  the  line-of-battle  ships  in 
oominission ;  their  numbers  of  guns,  and 
weight  of  metal ;  station ;  warlike  and  ship'a 
stores ;  number  and  quality  of  the  crew  ac- 
tually on  board ;  state  and  condition  of  the 
ship;  with  her  tea  and  serviceable  qua- 
Uties. 

'<  It  is  pos^ble  to  get  all  those  particulars 
from  the  N.  O.  but  the  most  certain  mods 
would  be  from  the  Admiralty,  Navy,  CM- 
nanee,  and  Victualling*offlces,  and  the  respee4 
tive  doek-yards  where  vessels  rendeevoua  for 
eleaning  and  repairing. 

*<  Provisions  are  transported  from  the  Vic* 
tualling-office  in  London  to  the  diBerent  poitt 
where  vessels  of  war  fit  out,  where  they  ai* 
committed  to  the  care  of  the  More-keepeiv 
who  victuals  tlie  outward-bound  shipa  hy 
orders  from  the  Admiralty.  The  same  oiocw 
Ls  observed  with  ordnance  and  nax-al  s^res. 
Official  lists  in  genemi  ane  iiMlccitfute,  andtlw 
state  of  our  havy  from  them  cannot  be  de^ 
pendedaipon ;  a  eortutmnicatien  with  an  in* 
tellisent  person  at  etch  of  the  doelt-tards  ii 
the  Dest  channel  for  procurmg  and  lke^|Hng 
an  exact  state  of  the  navy. 


aes] 


J<uir  High  Treason* 


^  I  estiaiate  the  first  eipeuce  ia        /.    «.   d, 

fiettling  the   cammomAwct 

tem   Laodan  U>  Fl^outh 

and  back,  by  way  of  Ports- 

mouthy  ^90  miles,  which  with 

road  expellees,  posting  costs  - 

If.  Id.  per  mile  -  -  -  94  7  fii 
Suppose  expenees  while  at  the 

docks  ....         980 

To  Chatham  and  Sheemess  and 

bttcky  90  miles,at  U,  Id.  -  4  17  6 
Simpose  expences  while  at  the 

doeks  -  ...  660 
A  conre^x>ndence  may  be  set- 
tled at  Harwich  without  the 

expence  of  a  Journey    -       -         0    0    0 

■   ■  ■  111! 

^.43  19    0 


**  I  should  im^ine  that  proper  persons 
could  be  found  at  Fortsmouth  ana  Plymouth, 
for  five  guineas  per  month,  including  all  extra 
expences,  to  furnish  every  information  want- 
ed ;  and  one  person,  on  the  same  terms,  to 
supply  for  both  Chatham  and  Sheemess,  as 
the  communication  between  them  is  freciuent, 
and  the  distance  but  small. 

^  Harwich  being  a  more  inconsiderable 
dock,  two  or  three  guineas  per  month  would 
be  sufficient. 

"  Woolwich  and  Deptford,  beins  at  a  short 
distance  from  town,  may  be  fumianed  hy  the 
agent  there.  ' 

"By  the  above,  I  mean  regularly  to  have 
a  packet  from  each  twice  a  week.  Except  in 
matters  of  great  importance,  where  it  might 
be  necessary  to  send  an  express ;  and  it  is 
expected,  that  the  agent  will  be  reimbursed 
his  actual  expence  on  such  occasions,  over 
and  above  the  stated  allowance. 

"  If  it  is  required  to  know  weekly  the 

5|uantities  of  stores  and  provisions  contracted 
or  by  the  Victualling-offece  for  the  use  of  the 
fleet,  a  person  in  that  office  is  necessary,  but 
not  otherways;  and  such  information  may 
be  had  for  about  three  or  four  guineas  per 
month. 

''  A  communication  with  a  person  in  the 
Navy-office  is  very  necessary ;  and  every  in- 
formation wanted  from  that  quarter  may 
be  had  for  seven  guineas  ana  a  half  per 
month. 

"  A  conununication  with  the  Admiralty  is 
also  necessaiy ;  but,  as  that  is  for  information 
only,  no  sum  can  be  stipulated,  but  must  de- 
pend on  the  importance  of  the  occasion,  and 
condition  of  the  officer. 

**  A  communication  with  the  Ordnance- 
office,  I  think,  unnecessary,  unless  it  be  to 
know  the  quantities  on  hand,  and  wliat  are 
sliipped  oflT  from  time  to  time,  which  Can  al- 
ways be  known  for  a  small  expence.'* 

(All  the  papers  throughout  the  trial,  stattid 
to  be  the  prisoner's  handwriting,  were  proved 
80  to  be  by  BAr.  John  Vowell  and  Mr.  John 
Palmer.) 


A.  D.  1782. 

William  Jnma  sworn. 

Examined  by  Mr.  Bait, 


[8S8 


Where  do  you  hve  ? — ^I  formerly  was  resi« 
dent  at  Lyme. 

Where  did  you  live  in  February  last  ?-« At 
Portsmouth  and  Gosport  I  have  a  brother 
therel 

Look  at  the  prisoner :  are  you  aoquainted 
with  him  I — I  kiiow  the  prisoner. 

Djd  you  see  him  any  time  last  February  f 
— Yes,  at  Gosport.  I  am  rather  thick  of 
,  heariiu;:  I  wiU  rehearse  the  whole  story  if 
you  ^wase;  afterwards,  if  you  ask  me  any 
questions,  I  will  eodeavour  to  answer  thent 
to  the  best  of  my  knowledge.    I  was  ac- 

2uainted  with  one  captain  Bowles ;  he  toid  nie 
e  was  employed  by  Mr.  Tyrie  to  go  to 
Ostend. 

I  must  brinsyou  to  the  time  I  mentiooeil 
in  February.  IDm  the  other  circumstaneet 
of  your  story,  ana  inform  the  Court  what 
passed  between  the  prisoner  and  you  in 
February.^I  met  Mr.  Tyrie  pretty  near  th< 
beach  at  Gosport :  he  asked  me.  If  I  had 
beard  anv  thing  of  the  misfortune  that  ha4 
happened  to  I^wles,  who  was  employed  ia 
captain  Harrison's  vessel  to  go  to  Oslemk 
He  said,  Captain  Bowles  had  we  misfortune 
to  lose  the  vessel  coming  out  of  Boulogne. 
Mr.  Tyrie  said«  He  wanted  to  Supply  som^ 
ships  goine  out  to  1])e  East  Indies  with  wine. 
He  said.  He  wanted  to  get  the  wine  home, 
and  asked  me  if  I  woum  go  and  conduct  a 
vessel  home  from  Boulogne.  I  said,  ndy  busi- 
ness required  me  to  go  to  Guernsey.  He 
said,  He  should  eive  me  15/.  or  15  guineas,  if 
I  would  go  and  bring  home  the  wine  to  Spit^ 
head,  and  the  people  tj^twere  there;  and 
that  I  should  have  a  letter  of  credit  for  50/. 
if  I  chose  to  purchase  any  thing.  I  asked 
him  what  vessel  he  had  to  carry  me  there  } 
He  said.  He  would  have  a  vessel  at  a  mo- 
ment's notice ;  he  could  have  one  of  Stevens's 
at  the  Point.  I  went  with  him  there.  Sto- 
vens  was  indifl^rent  about  going.  I  told  Mr. 
Tyrie  the  wi<id  was  too  short  to  go  to  Bou- 
logne. He  then  said,  If  I  could  not  get  there. 
Cherbourg  would  answer  his  purpose  as  well 
as  Boulogne.  I  tQld  Him  I  had  been  there 
manv  times,  but  could  never  buy  any  wine; 
but  he  said,  the  eentleman  he  should  send 
me  to  would  siippJ^  me  with  what  he  wanled. 
I  told  him,  it  being  war-time,  it  would  be 
hazardous  to  go  into  an  enemy's  country ;  I 
thought  they  mieht  detain  me  there.  He 
said,  N(^  he  would  give  me  a  piece  oi  paper 
of  signals,  which  I  was  to  make  at  my  arrival 
there,  that  nobody  should  detain  me.  f 
asked  him  if  I  should  have  mv  liberty  to  £o 
ox^  shore  ?  He  said,  I  might;  but  none  of  t&) 
people  on  board  must  go  on  shore :  that  I 
should  be  firovided  wHI^  necessaries. 

Did  he  eiveyou  any  signals.^ — He  did;  but, 
before  I  had  the  signals,  I  wnitckl  upon 
him  at  the  Crown-imi ;  there  be  delivered  mt 
a  packet.  ^ 


827] 


S2  GEORGE  111. 


Trial  of  David  Tyrie, 


[828 


At  what  time  was  this  ? — Between  nine  and 
ten  o'clock  at  night  of  the  same  day;  I  think 
it  was  the  17th  of  February ;  it  was  of  a  Sun- 
day. 

Are  you  sure  it  wus  on  a  Sunday? — ^Yes; 
and  I  believe  it  was  on  the  17th ;  Mr.  Tyrie 
delivered  me  a  packet.        ^ 

When  you  went  to  Tyrie's  lodginss  at  the 
Crown,  who  was  with  him  I — ^Mr.  Mailstone. 
and  Mr.  Tyrie's  wife,  or  a  woman  that  passed 
for  his  wife,  was  with  him. 

Did  you  observe  what  they  were  doing  ? — 
Mr.  Tyrie  and  his  wife  were  b^oth  silting  at  the 
•table,  and  I  believe  the^r  were  both  writing; 
but  I  did  not  interfere  with  their  business,  as 
I  looked  upon  it  to  be  letters  of  trade.  Mr. 
Tyrie,  after  that,  gave  me  a  packet  of  letters. 

Look  at  that  packet.— This  is  the  same,  I 
believe ;  I  am  sure  the  outside  is.  It  was  be- 
tween nine  and  ten  o'clock  when  he  delivered 
me  this.  Mr.  Tyrie  and  his  wife  -then  set  off, 
as  they  said,  for  London. 

You  mentioned  before,  that  Mr.  T^rie  gave 
you  a  paper  of  signals  to  protect  you  agamst 
,  the  French  when  you  came  upon  their  coast: 
what  did  you  do  with  that? — I  carried  the 
papers  with  me  to  London,  and  delivered 
them  to  Mr.  Chamberlayne. 

Look  at  these  papers. — These  are  the  papers 
that  were  deliverea  to  me  bv  Mr.  T)Tie ;  and 
that  I  gave  to  Mr.  Chamberlayne. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Watson, 

You  say  this  is  a  paper  which  you  gave  to 
Mr.  Chamberlayne? — Yes. 

What  marks  are  there  by  which  you  .know 
it  ? — There  are  the  two  first  letters  6f  my  name 
upon  it 

When  did  you  give  that  paper  to  Mr. 

Chamberlayne  ? — ^It  was  of  a  Monday ;   I 

*  think,  the  2$d  day  of  the  month;  but  I  will 

not  be  positive  to  the  day  of  the  month:  but 

I  am  positive  this  is  the  paper. 

It  was  on  a  Monday;  in  what  month  was 
it  ? — In  the  month  of  February. 

At  what  place? — The  office  in  Bow-street. 

What  carried  you  with  that  paper  to  the 
ofi)ce  in  Bow-street  ?^-A  coach. 

By  whom  were  you  sent  there? — By  Mr. 
William  Harrison,  of  Gosport. 

Who  is  Mr.  Wm.  Harrison? — The  master 
of  a  vessel  he  has  been  formerly,  as  I  am  in- 
formed ;  and  He  resides  at  Gosport. 

(The  signals  read.) 

«  Signals. — ^A  St.  George's  jack  at  the 
mast-head,  a  French  ensien  at  the  staff,  a 
weoff  at  the  gaff  end^  and  fire  two  guns  or 
muskets  to  leeward." 

Mr.  Morri$,  That  is  an  exact  copy  of  this 
paper  that  was  delivered  to  Mrs.  Hervey, 
which  was  with  the  papers  that  were  in  the 
hand-writine  of  the  prisoner. 

Look  at  that  other  paper.  What  use  did 
Mr.  Tyrie  say  you  was  to  make  of  that,  when 
he  i^ve  it  you  ? — I  did  not  understand  the 
English  of  it;  but  Mr.  Tjme  said^  after  I  had 


made  those  signals,  a  boat  would  cbme  off  to 
me,  and  I  was  to  deUver  this,  paper,  and  then 
the  packet,  and  was  then  to  be  permitted  to 
go  on  shore. 

Did  he  say  any  thing  about  that  paper  pro- 
tecting you  ? — ^He  said,  when  I  produced  that 
paper,  I  should  not  be  hurt. 

Afler  this  conversation,  you  said.  Mr.  Tyrie, 
and  the  woman  who  called  herself  his  wife, 
went  to  London  ? — ^Yes. 

Did  you  keep  this  packet  in  your  posses- 
sion ?7- Yes.  The  next  morning,  when  I  came 
to  think  of  it,  I  thought  it  not  right  to  carry 
a  packet  of  letters  to  an  enemjrs  port,  with- 
out knowing  the  contents  of  it.  I  took  this 
packet  to  Mr.  Harrison,  and  left  it  in  his 
nands,  to  take  down  the  directions:  he 
brought  it  me  again ;  and  I  had  not  kept  it 
ten  minutes  before  captain  Harrison  came  in. 
and  took  them  up  off  the  table;  and  I  did 
not  see  them  any  more. 

Mr.  Watton.  You  say  you  had  a  packet 
which  was  directed  in  the  way  that  packet 
was  which  you  had  in  your  hand  just  now, 
and  that  this  is  the  cover  it.  Did  you  open 
it?— No. 

Did  captain  Harrison  open  it  in  your  pre- 
sence?— ^I  was  walking  up  and  down  the 
room  when  ho  opened  it. 

Was  any  other  person  present } — "So, 

Do  you  know  how  many  papers  there  were 
in  that  packet? — I  cannot  swear;  I  think 
there  were  five :  but  I  did  not  take  any  par- 
ticular notice  of  it. 

Had  you  any  conversation  at  that  time 
about  Tyrie  with  captain  Harrison  ? — ^I  do  not 
know  any  thing  particular. 

Did  captain  Harrison  talk  of  makins  a 
hundred  pK)und  of  the  papers  ? — He  did,  while* 
we  were  in  captain  Standneld's  house. 

Did  he  say  now  he  was  to  make  a  hundred 
pound  of  them? — No. 

Did  captain  Harrison  tell  you,  you  must 
make  Tyrie  look  as  black  as  possible,  in  order 
to  get  this  hundred  pound  ? — He  did.  When 
I  arrived  at  London,  he  said,  We  are  goi^g  to 
the  office ;  I  would  have  you  make  it  as  black 
as  you  can  against  Tyrie.  I  said,  No  blacker 
than  the  truth. 

Have  you  had  any  conversation  since  with 
a  woman  that  is  in  lothill-ficlds  Bridewell  ? — 
Very  little. 

Do  you  know  a  man  of  the  name  of  Ram- 
sey?— ^Yes. 

Have  not  you  had  some  conversation  with 
him  about  Harrison,  and  this  transaction  ? — 
I  may  have  had  some  conversation  with 
him. 

Did  not  you  tell  him  you  knew  nothing 
about  it  but  what  Harrison  bid  you  say.' — 
No ;  I  am  sure  I  could  never  say  any  such 
thing. 

Have  you  had  any  conversation  with  Ram- 
sey, in  which  you  said  that  you  swore  to 
thmgs  in  Bow-street  that  you  knew  nothine 
about? — Never,  to  my  knowledge.  I  coula 
not  say  a  thing  of  that  kind. 


829] 


for  High  Treiuon. 


A.  D.  1782. 


[830 


William  Harriwn  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Batt. 


Are  you  acquainted  with  William  James  ? 
— I  have  been  acquainted  with  him  only  since 
this  aftair  happened :  I  never  saw  him  before. 

Do  you  remember  his  shewing  you  a  packet 
of  letters  ? — He  did  not  shew  it  me,  till  I  en- 
treated him  to  do  it. 

Look  at  this  packet :  Is  it  the  same  that 
James  shewed  you  ? — That  is  th^  outside  case. 

What  did  you  do  with  thaty  when  you  had 
it  in  your  possession? — I  got  it  to  my  own 
house.  Mr.  James  told  me  capt.  Standfield 
was  a  friend  and  acquaintance  ot  his,  and  de- 
sir^  me  to  let  him  take  it  to  him,  to  ask  his 
advice.  I  was  dubious  to  let  him  have  it,  for 
fear  he  should  take'  it  away.  I  opened  it. 
Upon  seeing  there  was  a  letter  directed  to  the 
mmister  of  marine,  at  Paris,  I  thought  it  could 
not  be  a  wine-merchant's  business.  I  then 
put  them  into  my  pocket,  hasted  to  London 
immediately^  and  delivered  them  to  lord  Stor- 
mont's  secretary,  Mr.  Fraser. 

Are  the  contents  in  this  cover  the  same  as 
when  you  delivered  themP — ^I  believe  they 
are :  I  delivered  the  whole. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Watum. 

At  what  time  did  you  carty  them  to  Lon- 
don?—On  the  I9th  of  February  I  went  I 
arrived  in  Loudon  on  the  20th. 

William  Frtuer,  esq.  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Serjeant  Groie. 

You  were,  Sir,  at  that  time,  under  secretary 
at  lord  Stormont*s  office? — ^I  was. 

Where  had  you  that  packet  from? — From 
Mr.  Harrison,  in  the  secretary  of  state's  office. 

Are  those  the  papers,  as  you  received  them? 
—They  are:  they  are  every' one  of  them 
marked  by  me  in  my  own  hand-writing. 

How  soon  didyou  mark  them  mfler  vou  re- 
ceived tbem  ? — To  the  best  of  my  recollection, 
I  marked  most  of  them,  I  believe  I  might  say 
all,  in  Mr.  Harrison's  presence. 

Did  you  receive  any  more  ? — ^I  did  not 

Did  you  mark  them  as  you  found  them  in 
the  cover  ? — ^I  did. 

(The  outside  cover  to  the  packet  was  in  the 
prisoner's  hand-writing.) 

Direction:  **  For  captain  James;  to  be 
opened  upon  his  depafUire  from  Dunnose." 

Mr.  Morris  to  Harriton.  Did  you  open  the 
outside  cover  ? — A,  I  did  partly,  but  nothing 
else.  • 

What  was  inside  that  cover  ? — ^Lettefs. 

Did  you  deliver  the  whole  to  that  gentle- 
man ? — ^Yes ;  every  piece  of  paper. 

And  none  but  what  were  m  that  cover  ? — 
— Not  one.  There  was  a  little  piece  of  paper 
besides ;  that  vras  signals. 

Mr.  Marrit,  Now  we  will  read  the  papers 
contained  in  that  cover. 


N^  L— (The  prisoner's  hand-writing.) 

**  Mr.  John  De  Lisle,  k  Cherbourg. 

*'  Sir;  Mr.  Casslu,  of  Calais,^  desired  me, 
upon  anv  occasion,  to  address  myself  to  you 
at  Cherbourg,  he  having  previously  satisfied 
you  respecting  my  solidity.  In  consequence 
of  his  recommendation,  I  have  sent  a  small 
sloop  to  address,  on  which  you  will  please  to 
load  150  dozen  of  the  best  claret,  in  hampeis 
of  42  bottles ;  50  dozen  of  Burgundy,  in  ham- 
pers of  36  ditto.  Send  me  the  invoice  and 
bill  of  loading  by  post,  and  for  the  amount 
draw  on  Mons.  Brodelet,  in  Paris,  whom  I 
have  given  orders  to  honour  your  drafts.  You 
may  supply  capt  James  with  60/.  oq  my  ac- 
count.— ^i   am,  respectfully.  Sir,  your  mdst 

obedient  servant."  

'<  A  Monsieur  Jean  De  Lisle,  Cherbourg.'^ 

N*  II.— (The  prisoner's  hand-writing.) 
**  Mr.  John  Totterell,  il  Ostend. 

''  Sir;  This  will  be  delivered  to  you  by  capt 
William  James,  to  whom  you  mav  advance 
the  siun  of  5o/.  for  which  I  will  be  answer- 
able. *  Please  to  load,  on  the  vessel  that  brings 
kim,  80  dozen  claret^  in  four  dozen  hampers, 
40  ditto  champa£ne,m  two  dozen  ditto,  300lb. 
hyson  tea,  in  25  bags,  and  150  tubs  brandy. 

"  Take  his  receipts  for  the  whole,  and  trans- 
mit to  me  by  post. — I  am  respectfidly.  Sir, 
your  most  obedient  servant,       D.  Tybie.'^ 

"  London,  Feb.  9,  1782." 

**  Mr.  John  Totterell,  merchant,  Ostend. 
**  Per  fav.  capt  Wm.  James." 

N^  III. — (The  prisoner's  hand-writing.) 

*'  Spithead,  Feb.  10, 1782, 6  o'clock  p.  m. 

''Sir;  If  the  bearer  should  not  be  able  to 
fetch  Boulogne,  he  will  deliver  you  a  packet, 
directed  for  Mons.  Bonnier.  Please  to  open 
it,  and  forward  the  letter  directed  for  Mons. 
Brodelet,  to  the  minister  of  marine,  at  Paris, 
with  the  utmost  speed.  That  directed  tor 
Bonnier  make  your  own  use  of.  You  may 
ask  him  for  his  letter  to  M.  De  Lisle,  whica 
you'll  please  to  keep ;  and  acquaint  him  that 
M.  De  lisle  has  retired  from  Cherbourg.  He 
will  bring  up  without  the  port.  You  may 
order  the  vessel  to  remain  there,  if  you  please. 
Dispatch  him  again  as  soon  as  possible,  and 
do  not  suffer  his  people  to  have  anv  commu- 1 
nication  with  the  snore. — I  have  the  honour 
to  be,  Sir,  your  most  obedient  and  most  hum- 
ble servant,  Croize." 

''  A  Mousieur  Copimandant,   . 
it  Cherbourg." 

N**  IV.— (The  prisoner's  hand-writing.) 

A  cover,  which  contained  two  letters,  N*  V 
and  N*  VI.  the  cover  directed  ''  A  Monsieur 
Bonnier,  chez  M.  Dufour,  SeUier,  Rue  de  la 
Cue,  k  Boulogne." 

N"  V. — (In  the  hand-writing  "of  a  woman.) 

"  Sir;  The  bearer  iS  ignorant  of  the  business 


S3l] 


2%  GEOROE  m. 


Trui  ofDttoid  TtftUt 


[832 


he  cMD^  cnd^recftive  and  ti^t  i^rith  hiia  as  a 
wine-merchant  only.  Send  with  him  the 
wine  now  remaining  in  your  care,  and  as 
much  isidre  as  you  can  get.  Do  not  delay 
hitt).  Forward  what  he  brinss  to  Mons.  Bro- 
delet  with  the  utmo^  speed,  imd  desire  Hie 
cofhinand&m  to  communicate  the  contents  of 
the  note  &t  foot,  where  n^edAil. 

"  The  Arethusa,  La  Prudente,  Monsieur,  and 
R^CO'^ery  frjgiltes,  which  sailed  from  Spithead 
list  We^k  (ftd  of  February),  are  hovering  off 
the  FrenA  coast,  to  intercept  a  fleet  of  snips 
^pected.to  Sail  about  this  time  fVom  Cher- 
bourg, Havre,  and  other  ports,  with  stores  for 
'the  Ba;f,  t6  rende^ons  at  Cape  la  H<>giie.'^ 
**  M.  Bonnier,  ehez  M.  Dinbur.'' 

N**  VI. — (In  the  hand-writing  of  a  woman.) 

«  ftjHtfiea^,  F^b.  10, 1789, 1  c?ck)ck,  p.  m. 

"  At  sun-rise  this  morning,  No.  98  made 
th6  signal  for  the  West  India  fleet  to  unmoor, 
and  they  aire  A0#  getting  under  s^l.  The 
fleet  consists  of  about  19U  sail  of  transports, 
store-ships,  victuallers,  and  merchantmen. 
No.  98,  111,  and  l62,  are  to  convoy  them  to 
the  West  Indies,  and  No.  40,  and  101,  which 
sailed  with  the  East  India  convoy,  have  orders 
tic>  Join  them  in  the  Bay,  and  proceed;  .  No. 
S6,  and  170,  go  with  them  abont  300  leagues 
to  the  westward,  and  return. 

"  No^.  122, 1$6,  119,  and  136,  are  now  on 
the  French  coast,  waiting  for  a  neet  of  ships, 
expected  to  sail  about  this  time  with  stores 
for  the  Bay.  The  information  received  h^re, 
sayi  they  are  coming  from  Cherbourg,  Havre, 
&c.  and  to  rendezvous  at  Cape  la  Hogiie  for 
your  ffovernroent. 

''  No.  183,  advised  you,  in  a  dispatch,  No. 
#,  to  have  sailed  with  the  Ejtst  India  convoy, 
is  put  back,  having  run  foul  of  an  East  India 
ship,  and  eirried  away  her  bowsprit.  This 
fleet  wer^  All  seen  from  the  Isle  or  Wight  on 
Ihursday  morning;  but  no  ne>)?s  from  them 
have  come  here  since  thejr  sailed,  and  the 
wind ,  has  ever  since  continued  fair  at  N. 
N.  E.  aaid  N.  E.  It  blows  now  t.  N.  E.  mo- 
derate. 

*'  No.  irr,  Wit<i  abbVit  twelve  merchant 
ifiips,  sailed  on  Friday  evening  for  Cork. 
She  ealls  at  Plymouth  to  taR6  th«  trade  from 
ffiem." 

*  A  Mdnsieur  Bit^drt." 

[In  No.  XIV  and  XV,  which  contains  a 
awnerical  list  of  the  fleet.  No.  98  is  the 
Princess  Caroline,  No.  Ill  the  Endymion, 
No.  162  the  Alarm,  No.  40  the  Magnificent, 
No.  101  the  Renown,  No.  2d  the  Berwick, 
No.  170  the  Albemarle,  No.  122  the  Are- 
thnsa.  No.  196  the  Monsifeuf,  No.  119  la 
Pmdente,  No.  136  the  Recovery,  No.  183  the 
Mddea.} 

Iftr.  Serjeant  Grmt  to  Ca^t.  fft&riian.    Db 

-you  recollect  at  what  time  inftie^f^ar  178^, 

the  Princess  Caroline  sailed  from  Spithitad? — 

I  believe,  in  the  month  gf  February. 

-   Can  you  tell  me  in  vrhat  motkth  liie  Are- 


thusa,  the  Prudfente,  Monsieur,  and  Recovery 
firigates  sailed  ?— They  went  out  early  in  Fe- 
bruary, upon  a  secret  expedition. 

Do  you  remember  the  Medea  sailingf — 1, 
cannot  say  I  do. 

Do  yiiu  recollect  ^ny  circumstance  lliitt 
happened  to  the  Medea  ?-^I  recollect  one  of 
the  East  Indiamen  being  damaged  atdea; 
but  I  can't  particularly  sa^  what  the  daini^ 
wds.  1  remember  the  circumstance  of  one 
East  Indiaman  being  hurt. 

Did  the  Bndymion  and  the  Anson  sail 
a;bou  t  the  begmmng  of  the  year  ? — Id  February 
the;^  both  sailed,  to  the  best  of  my  know- 
ledge; they  went  either  with  the  East  or 
West  India  fleet. 

When  did  the  Magnificent  and  Renown 
sail? — i  cannot  say;  but  I  thmk  they  went 
out  with  that  West  India  fleet :  then  they 
sailed  on  the  17  th  of  February. 

Do  you  know  what  is  become  of  the  Enter- 
prize  }*^l  do  not. 

N*  Vll. — fThe  prisoner's  hand-writing.) 

"  Gosport,  Feb.  10, 178«. 
"  Mon^t.  Bonnier, 
^'  Sir ;   Please  to  send  by  the  bearer  the 
wine  left  under  your  care  by  L.  P.  with  fort^ 
or  fifty  dozen  more  of  the  same  Quality,  if  it 
can  be  got :  this  last  let  Mr.  B.  charge  to  my 
account.    Give  the  captain  all  possible  disn 
patch  \  and  supply  with  what  he  mav  want 
for  the  cutter's  use.    I  recommend  him  to 
your  protection,  and  am,  Sir,  your  most  obe- 
dient servant,  D.  Tyrie?* 
"  A  Monsieur  Bonnier,  chez 
M.  Dufour,  Seltier,  Rue 
de  la  Cue,  k  Boulogne." 

Moses  Morant  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Batt. 

You  are,  I  believe,  a  constable  ? — Yes. 

Do  you  remember  being  called  upon  at 
any  time  to  assist  in  apprehending  Mr.  Tyrie  } 
— ^I  was  not  at  the  apprehending  of  him.  Mr. 
Tyrie  was  brought  to  the  orflice.  The  constat 
hie  who  apprehended  him  said  a  greait-caat 
was  left  at  the  round-house,  where  he  had 
been  all  night.  I  thought  there  might  be 
something  m  that  great-coal  I  went  aiid 
took  these  books  (producing  them)  out  of  the 
pocket.  1  asked  Mr.  Tyrie  if  he  had  a  ereat- 
coat  at  the  roimd-hovtse  ?  He  said  he  had,  and 
hfid  tihree  books  in  it;  which  are  these :  they 
ar6  three  pri[nfecd  lists  of  thi  na;^y. 

J9hn  Frodskam  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  B«M. 

You  are  clerk  to  Mr.  Wright  and  the  oth^ 
magisf mt^s  at  Bow-stfect? — I  am. 

DW  you  gd  to  the  lodgings  of  Mr.  Tyiie  ? — 
I  was  directed  by  th«  tna^gistrate  to  go  aM 
see  that  the  officer  did*  his  dbty  in  si^arching 
fht  the  papers.  These  papers  were  found  at 
his  lodgings ;  they  have  ail  my  ihitSats  dA 
th^£i^.  iome  were  found  upon  the  testier  of 
the  bed ;  some  in  the  trtAlk,  and  lying  about : 

§ 


m} 


Jbr  Hif^  TrauoH. 


A.  D.  1782^ 


(]83^ 


some  part  were  tied  up.    They  ace  marked 
on  them  where  they  were  found.    (The  pa- 

5ers  were.)  "  A  list  of  the  ordnance  stores  in 
.  ifferent  forts.''—"  The  shiM  at  Woolwich.*'— 
**  The  state  of  our  National  Deht."—"  Another 
list  of  ships," — '^  The  King's  ships  at  Ports- 
mouth in  commission.'' 

James  Mailstone  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Batt, 

Are  you  acquainted  with  the  prisoner  ? —  * 
Yes, 

How  long  have  you  known  him? — ^We 
served  our  apprenticeships  neit  door  to  each 
other  in  Lcitn^  in  Scotland. 

Were  you  applied  to  by  him  to  be  employed 
in  any  business  ?— Yes,  at  the  end  of  last  No- 
vemoer,  he  told  me  he  had  got  some  employ- 
ment for  me ;  that  I  was  to  go  down  to  Ports- 
douth,  and  that  he  would  get  me  conmiis- 
sions  to  buy  poultry  and  hve  stock  for  the 
East  India  •  ships.  On  the  evening  before  I 
went  away,  he  desired  me  likewise  to  send 
him  an  account  of  all  the  ships  of  war  that 
came  into  port>  or  sailed  from  Spithead.  I 
was  to  let  him  know  what  ships  sailed  with 
convoys,  and  what  arrived.  When  I  seemed 
surprised  at  that,  he  hinted  to  me,  that  he  did 
not  send  off  any  advices  without  shewing 
them  to  i^e  ministry. 

How  came  he  to  hint  that  to  you  ? — ^Be- 
cause I  thought  it  was  astonishing  that  he 
should  send  me  there  to  do  such  a  thins  as 
that:  another  reason  might  be,  that  I  had 
known,  or  heard,  before,  such  thines  were 
done ;  that  people  had  been  in  custody ;  and 
I  heard  of  one  man  in  particular,  mat  had 
done  it,  that  was  an  acqudntance  of  both  of 
us,  a  Mr.  Wardlow.* 

Did  you  set  out  for  Portsmouth  ? — ^I  did. 

What  did  you  do  with  respect  to  these  com- 
missions he  gave  you  ? — I  wrote  him  different 
letters,  acquainting  him  of  some  ships  that 
arrived,' and  some  that  sailed. 

Do  you  recollect  any  particular  ships 
jou  sent  him  an  account  of^r  any  thing  that 
passed  upon  the  subject  ? — ^The  first  Uimg  in 
particulaf  was  about  the  sailing  of  admuttl 
Kodney's  fleet :  he  in  different  letters  desired 
me  to  send  him  an  account  of  it. 

Did  you  do  so? — I  did  not  Just  before 
that,  I  received  a  letter  from  him  that  gave 
me  some  uneasiness,  and  I  resolved  not  to 
^nd  him  any  particular  account.  He  was 
veiy  urgent  for  me  to  send  him  the  particu- 
lars of  the  fleet  of  admiral  Rodney.  I  re- 
solved to  make  some  excuse  for  not  sending 
it^  and  I  did :  I  told  him  in  two  letters  that  I 
had  advise4  him  that  the  fleet  had  sailed,  when 
indeed  I  had  not  sent  him.  any  such  advice  ; 
and  I  alluded,  ifi  one  of  my  letters,  to  a  list 
I  pretended  to  have  sent  him  a  dav  or  ^wo 
before.  I  had  another  letter  from  him,  de- 
siring a  captain  Bowles  to  take  a  list  of  admi- 


*  Qa.  WaUrond.    Set  the  prec«din|;  C«m. 
vol..  XXI, 


ral  Rodney's  ships,  and  to  sail  with  it.  Cap- 
tain Bowles  came  to  me,  with  an  introduc- 
tory letter  from  the  prisoner  to  me,  desiring 
that  captain  Bowles  would  take  a  list  of  that; 
and  he  enclosed  a  letter  to  me  in  captain 
Bowles's  letter. 

Were  you  to  furnish  captain  Bowles  with 
intelligence,  by  desire  o£  tne  prisoner  ?— Yes, 
for  captain  Bowles  to  tidce  a  list  in  his  own 
hand-writing.  Captain  Bowles  was  to  sail 
to  Boulogne,  or  some  pk)rt  in  France,  to 
load  wine,  to  run  on  board  the  East  India 
ships. 

Was  Bowles  to  take  that  list  with  him  to 
Boul^;ne  ? — ^He  did  not  say  he  was  to  take 
it  to  France ;  but  I  have  no  doubt  that  was* 
the  intention  of  it. 

How  long  did  you  continue  this  intercourse 
with  the  prisoner,  by  letter,  from  Ports- 
mouth ? — 1  went  up  to  London  immediately 
aflerthis,  and  captain  Bowles  went  with  me. 

What  communication  had  vou  with  the 
prisoner  in  London  ? — A  good  deal  at  times. 
Captain  Bowles  and  I  were  at  his  lodgings  at 
several  different  times,  aiKl  captain  Bowlear 
then  went  down  to  Gosport  a^in ;  and  he 
was  from  Gosport  to  go  with  nis  ship  either 
to  Chichester,  or  to  some  other  port  upon  the 
coast. 

Was  that  said  in  the  presence  of  the  pri- 
soner ? — It  was. 

And  what  was  to  be  done  there  ? — The  pri- 
soner was  to  meet  him  there,  and  to  give  hyn 
his  dispatches  about  his  business. 

Did  you  say  any  thing  to  the  prisonei^ 
aflerwardSj  at  Gosport  or  Portsmouth  ? — Yes. 
The  first  tmie  he  came,  captain  Bowles  Was 
returning. 

Do  you  know  what  time  thai  was^ — ^The 
particular  date  I  am  not  certain  of,  bui  the  > 

Sueen's  birth-day  was  one  of  the  days  he.was 
tiere. 

What  passed  between  him  and  you  there? 
— He  asked  me  many  particulars  about  the 
ships  that  were  expected,  and  told  me  a  great 
many  things  relative  both  to  the  East  aad 
West  India  fleets;  and  he  asked  a  great 
many  things  of  me  concerning  them :  thaC 
was  the  East  India  .fleet  that  was  to  sail 
shortly  under  sir  Richard  Bickerton. 

Who  was  with  him  during  his  stay  at  Gos- 
port ? — His  wife  and  captain  Bowles. 

Did  you  see  any  thing  of  any  packet  of  the 
prisoner's  writing  while  you  was  at  the  Crown- 
inn  ? — Yes ;  but  that  was  when  he  came  the 
second  time. 

What  was  that  day  ?— The  general  fastrday. 
I  know  it  was. 

He  came  again,  then,  on  the  fast-day  ? — He 
did. 

Who  was  with  him  ? — ^His  wife. 

What  did  jrou  see  him  do?-r-I  saw  both 
him  and  his  wife  writing  letters  at  the  Crown- 
inn.  I  think,  either  upon  the  Sunday  or  the 
Saturday  afler  this,  I  think  i^was  the  Sunday 
after  this  evening  captain  James  was  there : 
he  said  to  captsyui  Jame^>  he  might  as  well 

3  H 


«SS] 


23  GEOUGE  lU. 


Trial  ofDand  T}frU, 


0B4O 


cate,  by  means  of  the  evidence  given  by  this 
man  and  his  accomplices,  to  convict  the  pri- 
soner ;  in  which  case  if  they  succeed,  as  it 
appears  to  me,  you  will  be  led  to  say  xipon 
■  your  oaths,  by  your  verdict  of  guilty,  that  a 
,  smuggling  trade  to  and  from  France  is  evi- 
dence, upon  the  face  of  it,  of  a  treasonable 
correspondence  with  the  king's  enemies  re- 
nding in  France.  What  does  James's  evi- 
dence amount  to  ^  He  says,  it  was  a  bargain 
for  15/.  to  go  to  France  for  wines,  and  that 
,the  prisoner  gave  him  signals;  respecting 
which  signals  a  great  deal  has  been  said,  ana 
to  which  a  ereat  many  observations  have  been 
pointed.  But  what  comes  out  upon  the  evi- 
dence of  James  f  The  sifi;nals  were  such  as 
were  to  introduce  him  to  tne  purpose  for  which 
he  went ;  the  sictaIs  were  such,  as  persons 
there  accustomed  to  traffic  with  £ndish 
smugglers  well  knew,  and  were  to  call  out 
the  traders  of  that  country  to  carry  on  this 
traffic  with  him.  He  asked  of  the  prisoner, 
pu;cording  to  his  storv,  whether  he  could  go 
on  shore,  and  was  told  in  answer,  that  pnK> 
bably  he  might,  under  restrictions,  and  under 
peculiar  circumstances ;  but  no  sailor  belong- 
ing to  the  cutter  was  at  any  rate  to  go  on 
shore;  nothing  was  to  be  permitted  that 
could  introduce  a  correspondence  between 
the  crew  of  his  vessel,  ana  the  people  on  the 
coast  of  France,  nothine  that  might  be  turned 
to  the  disadvantage  of  this  country,  in  any 
way  whatever.  Tne  sigmds  tliat  were  given 
him,  were,  not  what  we  had  reason  to  iear, 
when  this  prosecution  was  first  opened ;  not 
the  signals  of  the  fleet  of  Great  Britain,  by 
the  communication  of  which,  the  enemy 
ndght  learn  how  to  deceive  and  entrap  our 
fleets  and  squadrons :  they  were  not  the  sig- 
lials  of  the  East  or  West-India  convoy ;  but 
merely  signals  to  be  made  use  of  by  this 
^fimuggler,  when  he  came  upon  the  coast  of 
France,  in  order  to  call  out  the  people  who 
were  desirous  to  sell  their  wares  to  nim>  to 
inform  them  that  he  was  there  ready  to  re- 
ceive them ;  and,  lest  he  -  should  not  find  a 
market  that  would  pay  for  the  expence  of  the 
duties  to  the  crown,  upon  his  return  to  Eng- 
land, h^  was  as  well  possessed,  I  dare  say,  of 
signals  to  give  the  people'  notice  to  come  oft 
to'  him,  and  receive  his  cargo  upon  our  coast. 
This  'A  all  I  can  make  out  of  the  agreement 
between -James  and  the  prisoner. 

Then,  gentlemen,  a  packet  of  letters  and 
some  other  papers  is  produced  to  you,  which, 
James  says,  was  intrusted  to  his  care  by  the 
prisoner.  Let  us  consider,  for  a  moment,  of 
what  does  that  packet  consist.  It  was  dk 
rected,  on  the  outside  cQvar,  to  captain  James, 
for  the  purpose  that  he  might  take  care  of 
the  whole  'contents  together.  It  was  in- 
trusted to  .him ;  and  he  was  to  open  it  at  a 
certain  place,  I  think,  off  Dunnose ;  ^nd 
opening  it,  what  was  he  to  find  ?  Instructions 
for  nis  own  cdnduct,  which  afford  no  ground 
,6ven  of  suspicion.  An  drder  addre^ed  to 
^n^eur  J^  fbj  certain  quantities  of  the 


best  claret,  and  of  some  other  wines,  wMi 
which  he  was  to  traffic  back  to  this  country. 
He  had  farther  instructions  contained  in  this 
packet,  that  Mr.  Lisle  was  to  draw  upon  Mr. 
Brodelet  for  the  price ;  and  a  letter  of  credit 
for  50/.  was  also  given  to  the  captain  himself 
if  he  should  want  to  take  on  board  his  venel 
a  greater  freight  than  that  which  composed 
the  order  for  the  prisoner.  James  was  to 
have  this  credit  for  any  thing  he  might  tldok 
worth  his  while  to  purchase.  It  was  .not,  aa 
might  strike  you,  gentlemen,  at  the  first  mo- 
ment, fiftv  pounds  given  to  James  as  a  bribe 
to  keep  him  quiet  and  secret,  or  to  ^fo&fgt 
and  secure  his  assistance  in  the  business  ofa 
treasonable  correspondence:  he  would  not 
venture  to  swear  that ;  and  the  ovidenoe, 
upon  the  face  of  the  tiansaction  itself,  strongly 
proves  the  contrary.  It  was  a  letter  of  credit 
merely  on  the  score  of  thfs  illicit  traffic ;  a 
traffic,  I  confess,  to  be  blamed  and  censured, 
bift  not  a  traffic  ui>on  which  you  are  to  deter- 
rame  that  thejgrisoner  has  been  guii^  of 
high-treason.  Tnese  orders  however  (or  wine 
were  given,  it  will  be  told  you,  upon  different 
persons ;  and  firom  hence  an  inference  will  be  ' 
drawn  hostile  to  the  prisoner. — But  why? — 
The  reason  was  explamed  by  James  himself 
why  the  orders  were  so  given,  and  was,  that 
if  he  could  not  make  on^  port,  there  were  cor- 
respondents at  another,  llie  prisoner,  it 
seems,  carried  on  much  of  this  illicit  trade. 
What  he  wanted  now,,  was  a  psrtuular  quan- 
tity of  claret,  a  particular  quanti^  of  tea,  or 
a  particular  quantity  of  brandy.  James^  was 
to  get  these  with  all  expedition.  This  was 
the  object  for  which  the  prisoner  •  sent  him 
upon  ttiat  voyage,  and  therefore  he  was  to 
pursue  ^e  purposes  for  which  he  was  sent. 
The  counsel  for  the  crown  have  attempted,  it 
is  true,  by  another  letter  contained  m  this 
packet,  not  in  the  hand-writing  of  the  pri-' 
soner  at  the  bar,  to  persuade  you  to  believe 
that  the  smuggling  was  merely  by  way  of 
colour  fi>r  concealment  of  the  treasonable  cor- 
respondence. And  then,  as  to  this  letter  not 
being  of  his  writing,  they  say,  that,  being 
found  in  company  wiUi  his  hand-wiiting,  it  is 
fiur  to  make  use  of  it  as  evidence  to  you,* 
whereby  to  convince  you  of  the  prisoner's 
guilt. 

Now,  gentlemen,  let  us  see  for  a  moment^ 
wheUier  it  is  so  or  not.  I  am  ready  to  c<m- 
fess  to  you,  that  under  all  the  circumstances 
witl^  wmch  the  papers  were  produced  to  you. 
It  was  competent  for  the  counsel  for  the  crown 
to  give  that  letter  in  evidence ;  but  vast  suspi- 
cions hang  upon  it :  ^d  as  for  other  circum- 
stances in  the  case,  so  far  that  peculiarly  you 
are  to  weigh  well  in  your  own  minds  the  cre- 
dit that  is  due  to  the  two  wxtoessea  James 
and  Harrison,  one  of  whom  has  confessed  ex« 
plicitly,  the  other  of  whom  has  not  ventured 
to  deny,  that  one  great  object  which  tbey 
had  in  pursuing  this  matter  with  seal,  was  ta 
get  Uie  reward  they  expected ;  Hairison  sa^ 
tng  it  will  be.  a  job  worth  an  hundred  gjuis 


841] 


for  High  Treason* 


A.  D.  1^782. 


t84f 


aeas.  And  it  has  been  admitted  by  this  wit- 
nese  himself,  ihaX  upon  his  first  return  firom 
London,  he  said  to  James,  You  must  go  and 
make  the  business  as  black  as^rou  can  against 
Tyrie.  The  inference  is  left  for  you,  gentle- 
men ^  but  it  is  an  inference  you  cannot  avoid 
drawmg.  It  was  \in  order  that,  by  his  con- 
viction, they  might  reap  that  reward  which 
th^  were  seeking.  Besides  which  you  will 
recollect,  that  I  asxed  the  witness  James  con- 
cerning a  conversation  with  a  person  of  the 
name  of  Ramsey,  upon  the  subject,  aflerhis 
hay'mg  given  information  upon  oath  at  the 
Justices'  office  in  Bow-street.  The  ftict  is,  he 
had  a  conversation  with  Mr.  Ramsey ;  and  in 
ihaX  conversation,  as  I  am  instructed,  Ram- 
sey will  prove  to  you,  though  James  had  the 
hardiness  himself  in  a  degree  to  deny  it,  he 
told  him  that  he  had  sworn  at  the  pubhc  office 
in  Bow-4treet  what  he  knew  nothing  about; 
that  he  had  been  carried  there  by  Harrison ; 
that  he  had  sworn  he  did  not  know  what;  he 
had  sworn  to  facts,  of  the  truth  of  which  he 
had  no  knowledge  himself;  bat  it  was  what 
Harrison  bid  him  say.  This,  gentlemen,  I 
shall  prove  to  you  by  Mr.  Ramsey.  And  ano- 
ther circumstance  you  will  remember  is,  that 
Harrison'^  rancour  is  demonstrated,  as  well  as 
his  eagerness  to  obtain  a  large  reward  for  the 
conviction  of  the  prisoner. 

Under  these  circumstances,  if  you  are  not 
told  by  his  lordship  that  the  iact  of  the  ph* 
soner's  delivering  the  packet  to  James  has  not 
been  proved  by  two  witnesses^  and  thatadl 
the  contents  of  the  cover  which  has  come 
irom  James's  hand,  are  to  be  laid  entirely  out 
of  the  case,  and  ought  to  n»ke  no  part  of  the 
evidence  which,  in  deciding  upon  the  pri- 
soner's innocence  or  guilt,  you  are  to  consider 
as  the  ground  of  your  acqtutting  him,  pr  find- 
ing him  guilty;  you  will  at  least  reflect  that 
tiiese  papers  come  under  your  investigatioiL 
with  singular  marks  of  suspicion.  One  of  the  - 
-witnesses  to  the  overt  aet  of  sending  'this 
packet  by  James,  whose  name  is  Mailstone, 
appears  m  the  light  of  an  accomplice ;  and 
besides  he  gives'reasons  for  believing  that  the 
packet  produced  is  not  the  one  he  saw :  and 
you  are  wellaware,  gentlemen,  that  it  is  not 
the  question  for  you  |o  try  simply,  whether 
you  consider  that  the  prisoner  at  the  bar  de- 
serves well  of  the  community  or  ill.  The 
jQpinton  you  ought  to  form  of  his  character 
«nd  connectionsy  is  not  the  point  for  you  to 
determine  and  decide  in  the  verdict  you  are 
to  give :  you  are  not  to  convict  him  of  treason 
because  he  has  been  so  wicked  as  to  be  con- 
iiected  with  such  men  as  the  last  witness 
called,  Mailstone ;  with,  such  men  as  James 
and  Harrison,  or  with  others  of  whom  we 
have  heard.  What  the  history  of  his  life  has 
been,  or  what  his  conduct  has  been,  ought  ibr 
a  moment  to  be  fctfgetten  by  you,  or  rather  to 
be  remembered  witn  this  note,  that  it  is  not 
upon  these  you  are  now  to  decide. 

The  learned  gentleman  who  opened  the 
^9se  to  you^  told  you- well  and  properly^  who 


the  prisoner  is,  or  what  the  prisoner  is,  or 
what  have  been  his  connections  in  life,  are 
not  matters  for  your  consideration.  Admit 
that  he  has  pursued  that  loose  and  vagabond 
habit  of  Hfe  Which  leads  men  to  defiraud<4he 
revenues  of  Hieir  country,  and  to  smug^e  the 
produce  of  a  foreign  clime,  even  of  an  enemy's 
country,  into  his  own ;  this  is  not  a  reason 
why  you  should  find  him  guilty  of  the  heinous 
ofience  of  high  treason.  You  sre  then  to  con- 
sider, gentlemen,  the  whole  of  the  evidence 
which  has  been  offered,  and  which  will  be 
stated  to  you  with  such  observations  from  his 
lordship  on  the  bench,  as  I  am  sure  must  do 
amole  justice  to  the  innocence  of  the  prisoner, 
witli  respect  to  the  charge  now  laia  against 
him,  notwithstanding  any  circumstance  of 
criminahty  as  a  smuggler  or  otherwise.  I  am 
satisfied,  that  in  the  observations  which  will 
be  made  to  you  from  the  bench,  where  bis 
lordship  will  aid  me  by  being  also  counsel  for 
the  prisoner  at  the  bar,'  as  far  as,  according  to 
the  truth  and  justice  of  the  case,  he  ought  to 
be  counsel  for  him,  his  lordship  will  teUyou 
upon  what  points  you  are  to  lay  the  stress  of 
your  examination  into  the  whole  subject  mat^ 
ter  of  the  evidence  that  has  been  Uius  brought 
before  you,  so  as  to  draw  a  proper  conclusion 
from  it;  and  will  convince  you  that  it  is  by' 
no  means  a  chain  of  evidence  unbroken :  by 
no  means  a  body  of  circumstances  whicn 
carry  such  conviction  in  the  face  of  them,  as 
is  stronger  than  the  positive  testimony  of  ten 
thousand  witnesses. 

Such  the  circumstances  were  which  the 
learned  gentleman  opened  to  you;  but  such 
are  not  the  circumstances,  in  my  opinion, 
which  have  been  proved  to  you;  such,  I  trust, 
you  will  find  the  circumstances  have  not  been, 
when  you  come  to  weigh  and  consider  and 
reconsider  the  evidence  amongst  yourselves, 
afler  havine  heard  the  whole  testimony  in 
detail  laid  before  you  by  his  lordship,  with 
the  observations  which  he  is  to  make  upon  it. 
And  if  you  do  not,  upon  the  whole  body  of 
this  case,  find  that  the  circumstances  are  such 
as  to  convict  the  prisoner  of  high  tre^on,  then 
vou  will  not  fina  him  guilty,  whatever  may 
be  your  opinion  of  his  other  offences;  what- 
ever may  be  your  opinion  of  his  conduct  in  this 
contraband  traffic  with  an  enemy's  country ; 
which  was  highly  censurable  in  every  possible 
way:  for,  although  the  trade  of  smuggling 
thus  carried  on  is  doubly  wrong,  yet,  let  it  be 
wron^  in  a  degree  as  high  as  it  may,  this  is 
not  uie  crime  of  high  treason.  The  illicit 
trade  of  smuggling  is  the  crime  that  is  proved 
against  the  prisoner.  High  treason,  in  com- 
passing the  death  6f  the  king,  and  adhering 
to  his  enemies,  is  the  crime  charged  against 
him.  But,  eentkmenofthe  jury,  the  crime 
charged  is  what  you  must  find  by  your  ver- 
dict, m  agreeing  to  find  him  guilty.  If  there* 
fiore  you  do  not  feel  vourselves  convinced,  be^ 
yond  a  doubt,  by  wnatyoa  have  heard,  or  if 
the  witness  I  shall  call  to  contradict  and  ta 
destroy  the  weightof  the  testimony  of  Ja;nei^ 


ftlJO 


2»6B0Ii6£  III. 


Trial  qflkmd  Tyrie^ 


[8«» 


atetl^bytiift  fwmess  8n4  constslency  of  hta 
tiri«9  craaUk  a  doubi  in  y^ur  minds  which  doe» 
HOl  a)tea4y  exist,  tben  I  will  v«BJliire  to  assure 
^rott^thatin^eh  a  doubtful  ca8«  yoii  ouglst 
to  acquit.  And  I  will  only  add,  th«t  if  you 
abetdd  not  be  perfectly  convinced  of  tbe  ph- 
aoMf's  innocence,  doubts  of  his  guilt  oi^ht 
to  faAve  the  same  opetation  in.  determintnc 
youv  vordict,  as  proof  of  his  innocence^  |i^ 
tbtfwibre^  you  do  entertain  doubts,  I  am  war-* 
santedin  saying,  under  such  circunstaiieesy. 
fiqd  the  prisoner  guilty,  if  in  common  bonestji^ 
aad  conmon  sense  you  can,  if  in  conacieoce^ 
and  by  the  oath  you  have  taken,  you  dare. 


aaidy  Did  sot  I  hear  what  you  said,  when  you 
was  examined  at  the  ofiice?  I  lei^jed,  I  doa'4 
know  what  you  have  heard,,  nor  whfai  I  said  i 
bulb  I  scud  no  more  than  the  truth--That  waa 
in  answer  to  a  woman^s  talk — I  said  I  don't 
know  what  I  said, <»  what  I  did;  but  I  said 
no  more  than  the  truth. 

The  End  of  the  Evidence  for  thfi  Prisoner, 


£vrDEVC£  soa  th£  PnisoifEa. 

Edward  "Ramsey  sworn. 

Bxasoined  by  Mr.  Waison, 

Have  you  had  any  conversation  with  Wm. 
James,  the  witness  who  was  called  just  now, 
since  the  prisoner  at  the  bar  has  been  in  cus- 
tody, respecting  him  ? — Yes. 

^WiUidom.  James  called  into  Court.) 

.  Q.  to  JUufisey.  Have  you  had  any  conver- 
sation with  this  man,  respecting  the  prisoner, 
since  his  being  in  custody  ? — ^Ycs. 

Where  was  it  ?— In  Tothill-fields  Bridewell. 
Mr.  James  asked  me  if  I  would  take  a  walk 
to  Tothill-fields  BrideweH. 

Pid  you  know  Jam6s  before?-- Yes.  Ac- 
eordingiy  I  went  with  him.  Mrs.  Tyrie,  Mr. 
Tyrie'swife,  was  there  present,  drinking  a 
glass  of  wine.  She  abused  James  terribly : 
She  was  in  a  terrible  passion. 

What  did  he  say  ? — He  said  he  knew  no- 
thing about  it ;  it  was  not  his  fault  tViat  brought 
her  there.  Then  she  seemed  to  be  moderate, 
and  did  not  scold  so  much. 

Relate  exactly  what  James  said.— :tle  said 
he  knew  nothing  of  it;  that  it  was  not  hb 
fau\t  that  she  was  brou^t  there. 

What  was  the  conversation  about,  when  he 
S£ud  he  knew  nothing  about  it  > — ^With  regard 
to  her  being  taken  up.  He  said,  Mr.  Harri- 
son had  told  him  several  times  to  paint  the 
thing  as  black  as  he  could.  He  was  speaking 
to  ]ms.  Tyrie,  but  I  was  present.  Mr.  Mail- 
stone  was  present  at  the  time.  «When  we 
were  examining  at  the  office,  in  Bow-street, 
Mr.  James  said  he  was  s^orn  then,  but  he 
did  not  know  what  he  was  sworn  to :  being 
deaf,  I  presume  he  meant,  but  he  did  nol 
mention  that;  I  understood  so. 

Court  to  James,  Have  you  heard  what  this 
witness  has  siud?-^Yes. 

Court,  What  account  do  you.  give  of  it  ?•— J; 
I  went  to  see  IVfo.  Mailsione  there.  Mrs.  Tyrie 
came  into  the  room,  and  beg^n.  to  tidk  to  me 
very  loudly;  aadsaid^  she  must  thank  me  for 
behig  there. .  Lsaid,  I  did  not  know  L  had 
dene  her  any  hann.  I  paid  but  little  regard 
tfi  ity'ds  it  waa  aLwmuui'atalk.    At  la^  i^k 


.  Mr.  Justice  Heath  summed  up  the  £vi~ 
dence  to  the  Jury,  who  almost  immediately 
pronounced  the  prisoner  Guilty. 

After  the  Jury  had  ^ven  in  their  XVdict, 
upon  the  Clerk  of  Arraigns  putting  to  llie  pri- 
soner the  usual  question,  "  What  nave  you  to 
say  why  judgment  of  death  should  not  be  pass- 
ed upon  you  r"  he  replied,  It  is  in  vain  for  me  to 
say  any  thing — poverty  has  been  the  cause  of 
my  conviction ;  because  I  had  not  the  means 
to  brin^  my  witnesses  here.  However,!  have 
a  hope  beyond  the  grave,  and  despise  every 
thing  that  has  been  done  to  me. 

Sektbnce. 

Mr.  Justice  JEbof A. 

'  You,  David  Tvrie,  are  to  be  led  from 
hence  to  the  g^uu  from  whence  you  came ; 
and  from  thence  you  are  to  be  drawn,  upon 
a  hurdle,  to  the  place  of  execution;  and  there 
you  are  to  be  nanged  by  the  neck ;  and, 
being  alive,  to  be  cut  down,  and  your  privy 
members  to  be  cut  off,  and  your  bowels  ia  b^e 
taken  out  of  your  belly,  and  there  bumU 
you  being  alive :  and  your  head  to  be  cut  ofi^ 
and  your  body  to  be  diYided  into  four  quar- 
ters; find  that  your  head  and  quarters  be 
disposed  of  where  bis  majesty  shall  think 
fit^ 


The  following  Letter,  in  Tyiie'afaand-wiiiiii^ 
was  found  upon  the  person  to  wiioi»  it  is 
addressed,  who  was  apprehended  for  al*- 
tering  Bank-notea. 

(Copy.) 

^  My  dearest  Sir;  The  things  are  mdyv 
not  in.  To-morrow  evening  I  hope  to  maCc 
my  pushw — If  I  foil  in  this^  what  yen  pieinea 
ia  eeolainly  a  safo  andtpiacucable  mode;  out; 
good  God!  you'  amaaa  me  so  much,  that  I 
Bcaocelv  know  wiiaita  tliink.  I  Kally  doubb* 
ed  if  there  wcbis>  smcIl  a*  maa.a8  you  uving.— 
Our  acqwaintanre  is  but  sftMrt  and  oaauiL 
How  tkai,  thatam  but  a  stnager  to  you^  can 
£  expect  you.  will  nm  suoh^a  haanud*  mr  me? 
lliere  are  people  is  Liadoa  who  owe  their 
fortunes  U>  me,  nit  have  nolf  once  looked)  near 
me.  God  send  I  waa out!'  Ithinklwould 
eonviaDe  you.  I  waa  wortte  serving.  Bxcept 
ynvsdfi  L  believe  fotp  mei^have  ipose  seaoh^ 


^5]  Jot  iJi^i.  Treaswu 

lion.  I  have  but  few  words ;  but,  once  in  ac- 
tion, neck  or  nothing !  Depend  on  it,  if  no- 
tikkig  unfbtetecn  h^pfips^^eadoraliTe^  I^ 
be  delivered  to-morrow  nisht:  it  mav  be  a 
night  ktet  before  tbi  tMs  oone  in,  but  nc^ 
nobore.  If  I  am  detected,  and  vou  thkik  you 
can  accomplish  a  rescue  in  tne  journey  to 
WlBche^,  the  attempt  wiU  be  safe;,  eas^, 
and  certsun:  but  the  most  difficult  thins  will 
be  to  ijnd  out  when  I  am  to  be  romov^.  I 
am  in  great  confidence  with  the  turnkeys; 
Ihey  say  there  is  no  tdlk  of  going ;  they  are 
certain  it  won't  be  this  week,  and  pro- 
mise to  give  me  notice  tiie  day  beibi^. — 
This  cannot  be  depended  on ;  but  I  will  tell  • 
you  how  I  think  it  might  be  reduced  to  a  cer- 
tatnty.—- When  I  am  removed,  it  will  be  either 
in  the  Winchester  sta^e,  or  a  postK:haise ; 
Mxdj  in  either  caae,  I  wiU  go  out  of  the  gaol 
^bout  five  o'clock  in  the  morning  or  rather 
half  an  hoUr  sooner.  Suppose  tmn  a  person 
was  to  wait  about  the  Ola  B^ey  and  New- 
gate-street every  morning.  fVom  about  half 
at\er  three  till  about  six  o'clock :  let  hitt  fimt 
come  into  the  gaol,  and  see  m  v  face  and  per- 
son. If  I  am  removed  suddenly,  he  can  then 
come  and  give  you  notice ;  first  following  to 
see  whether  I  go  by  the  stage,  or  in  a  chaise : 
ifinachaiseyrll  jofromthedoor;  if  by  the 
Stage,  I'll  goto  the  inn. — ^You  ca^  enauire  where 
the  Winchester  staee  iims.  Bill  Lee,  and 
^notiier  creature  like  nimself,  are  all  that  goes 
with  Hie,  at  least  so  I  am  told ;  and  them  it 
is  only  who  go  with  the  prisoners  removed  at 
assize  time.  Knowing  my  time  and  mode  of 
conveyance,  all  that's  wanted  would  be  three 
gr  four  men  disguised  with  smock  or  wag- 
goner's firocks,  and  well  mounted,  as  if  smug- 
glers ;   they  might  have  crapes  for  th^  face.  ^ 


A.D.  1782. 


[84& 


Nothing  should  be  attempted  this  side  Houn- 
slow ;  but  immediately  on  the  other  side  of  it, 
or  Dot  again  tili  you  come  m  Bagihat-Hfebth, 
just  about  the  23  mile  stone. — A  horse*  or  a 
chaise  oa^ht  to  be  r^ad^ ;  t  Would  ptefer  the 
former ;  and  a  ix)pk  also  to  disguise  me  after 
i  got  away.— There  are  a  great  many  ways 
which  we  could  double  f^m  both  pf  these 
places. — And,  however  ridiculous  you  may 
think  it,  plenty  of  snuff  should  be  provided,  to 
throw  in  their  eyes : — you  should  also  get  a 
punch  and  an  irbii,  for  knocking  off  the  bazils 
from  my  legs.  We  will  reach  Hounslow 
about  seven  o\;lock  in  the  moming,  and  Bag- 
shot-heath  about  eleven ;  each  about  an  hour 
and  a  half  sooner,  if  in  a'  chaise.  If  all  the 
parties  were  readv,  a  watch  would  do  just  as 
well  at  Hyde-Park-comer  turnpike  as  at  New- 
gate ;  only  whoever  dots  it  must  first  know 
my  person,  l^ow,  suppose  I  was  to  get  no- 
tice about  six,  seven,  Dr  eight  o'clock  on  the 
evening  befi)re  I  am  removed;  h^w  could  I 
contrive  to  let  you  know  ?  I  wish  you  and 
J[ack  would  settle  some  pktce  about  this ;  I 
could  get  a  person  perhaps  to  go  a  mile  or  two, 
but  not  further ;  and  it  would  be  imprudent  to 
trust  every  one.  with  where  you  live.  Turii 
all  this  in  your  mind,  my  dear  friend,  as  the 
dernier,  in  case  my  first  should  be  frustrated. 
If  you  can  get  men  who  know  the  roadj  they 
may  know  a  better  place  neirer  London.  I 
doubt  you  will  find  it  difficult  to  get  the  men. 
— ^You  must  tell  them  it  is  to  rescue  a  person 
about  smuggling.  Adieu !  God  bless  you  ! 
I'll  expect tonear  fi:om  you  to-morrow.— Your 
ever  faithfid  and  obliged  friend." 

"  Wednesday  morning. 
Mr.  John  Graham.'^ 


847]  *  23  GEORGE  III.     Proceedings  against  the  Dean  of  Si.  Asaph,     \B9A 


566.  The  whole  Proceedinge  on  an  Indictment  in  the  Case  of  the 
KiNG^  on  the  Prosecution  of  William  Jones,  gent,  against  the 
Rev.  WiLUAM  Da  VIES  Shipley,  Dean  of  St.  Asaph,  for  a  Se- 
ditious Libel,  at  the  Great  Session  held  at  Wrexham,  for  the 
County  of  Denbigh,  on  Monday,  September  1,  1783;  Before 
the  Hon.  lioyd  Kenyon,  Chief  Justice,  and  the  Hon.  Dainea 
BaeCrington,  the  other  Justice  of  our  Lord  the  King  of  his  Great 
Session  of  the  County  of  Denbigh  :*  At  the  Assizes  at  Shrews- 
.  bury,  on  Friday  the  6th  of  August,  1784;  Before  the  Hon. 
Francis  Buller,  esq.  one  of  the  Justices  of  his  Majesty's 
Court  of  King's  Bench  ;*  and  in  the  Court  of  King's  Bench  , 
*at  Westminster,  in  Michaelmas  Term  following:  23,  3*, 
25  George  HI.  a.  d.  1783—1784. 


[In  the  year  17ft3,  soon  afler  the  conclusion 
of  the  calamitous  war  in  America,  the  pub- 
lic attention  was  verv  warmly  and  generally 
turned  throughout  this  country  towards  the 
;neccssity  of  a  reform  in  the  representation 
of  the  peo];)le  in  the  House  ot  Commons. 
Several  societies  were  formed  in  different 
]>arts  of  England  and  Wales  for  the  promo- 
tion of  it;  and  the  duke  of  Richmond,  and 
Mr.  Pitt,  the  then  minister,  took  the  lead  in 
bringing  the  subject  before  parliament. 

To  render  this  great  national  object  intelli- 

g'ble  to  the  ordinfu^y  ranks  of  the  people, 
le  late  excellent  sir  William  Jones,  tnen 
an  eminent  barrister  in  London,  and  after- 
wards one  of  the  Judees  of  tlie  Supreme 
Court  of  Ju^cature  at  Sengal,  composed  a 
Dialogue  between  a  Scholar  and  a  Fanner, 
asa  venicle  for  explaining  to  common  capa- 
cities the  great  prmciples  of  society  and  go- 
vernment, and  for  showing  the  defects  in  uie 
representation  of  the  people  in  the  British 
Parliament.  Sir  Wm.  Jones  having  married 
a  sister  of  the  dean  of  St.  Asaph,  he  became 
acquainted  with,  and  interested  in  tUs  Dia^ 
logue,  and  recommended  it  stron^y  to  a- 
committee  of  gentlemen  of  Flintshure,  who 
wer^  at  that  time  associated  for  the  object 
of  reform,  where  it  was  read,  and  made  the 
subject  of.  a  vote  of  approbation.  The 
court-party  on  the  other  nand  having  made 
a  violent  attack  upon  this  committee  for 
^e  countenance  thus  siven  to  the  Dia^ 
logue,  the  dean  of  St  Asaph,  considering 
(as  he  himself  expressed  it)  tiiat|the  best 
means  of  justifying  the  composition,  and 
those  who  were  attacked  for  their  approba- 
tion of  ity  was  to  render  it  public,  that  the 
world  might  decide  the  controversy,  sent  it 

"— T — 

*  Ttk«a  lA  Sliort'lMMMl  by  Jofopli  Omney. 


tQ  J)e  printed,  prefixing  to  it  the  advertise- 
ment set  forth  upon  the  Trial.] 

At  the  Great  Session  held  at  Wrexham,  for 
the  county  of  Denbigh,  in  April  1788.  a  bill 
of  indictrrtcnt  was  found-against  the  dean  of 
St.  Asaph,  to  which  the  defendant  pleaded 
Not  Guilty.  At  the  Great  Session  held  at 
Wrexham,  for  the  coubty  of  Denbigh,  in  Sep- 
tember 1783,  the  following  proceedings  were 
had : 

Mr.  Leycester..  I  am  jgoing  to  move  your 
lordships  upon  an  affidsfVit  which  is  now  pre- 
paring, ana  if  your  lordships  please,  in  order 
to  save  the  time  of  the  Court,  I  will  just  state 
the  subject  of  tiie  motion,  and  the  nature  of 
the  affidavit 

It  is  a  motion  that  this  trial  may  be  put 
off,  upon  an  affidavit  which  will  soon  be  pre- 
sented to  >t)Ur  lordship.— The  purport  of  the 
affidavit  is,  that  a  certain  body  of  men,  calling 
themselves  the  Constitutional  Societv,  con* 
tribute  to  the  ezpenoes  of  defending  the  dean 
of  St.  Asaph  on  this  prosecution.  That  since 
issue  has  been  joined  in  this  indictment,  a 
certain  person,  named  in  the  affidavit,  has 
dispersed  pamphlets  to  several  of  the  jury, 
and  throughout  this  neighbourhood,  the  pur- 
port of  which  is,  to  bias  and  influence  the 
minds  of  the  iury  upon  this  prosecution.^  It 
is  stated  tliat  tne  person  who  circulates  this 
pamphlet  brings  it  from  the  Constitutional 
Socie^,  and  Dr.  Brockelsby  and  Mr.  Oldfield, 
under  whose  authority  he  has  acted,  are 
sworn  bv  Uie  deponent,  to  the  best  of  his  be- 
lief, to  he  memoers  of  that  society.  Upon 
the  jground  of  the  facts  thus  disclosed  by  this 
affidavit  I  am  to  move  your  lordships,  that 
this  trial  may  be  put  off.  I  need  not  sug^st 
to  your  lordships  tha  great  impropriety  oTcir- 
culating  a  papor  of  this  sort,  tending  to  pre- 


849] 


fir  M  SedUtous  LOA 


A.  D.  1783. 


} 


[850 


ladioe  the  minds  of  the  jury ;  and  if  it  were 
aeoeMaiy  to  dte  any  authority,  a  giniilar 
practice  in  the  case  of  the  King  versM  Martha 
(Gray I*  who  was  indicted  for  a  ouiaance,  was 
considered  as  a  sufficient  ground  to  put  off 
the  trul.  For  these  reasons,  I  move  your 
lordships,  that  the  triai  may  be  put  off. 

Mr.  rrice  ^oneof  the  sentiemen  summoned 
on  the  nieoiak  jury)  saw  he  had  never  seen 
.any  sucn  pubhcation  as  that  alluded  to  by 
Mr.  Leyoeeter. 

Mr.  Le^egter.  I  beg  leave  to  add  to  what 
I  have  already  said,  Sxat  I  don't  mean  to 
throw  the  least  imputation  upon  any  of  the 
gentlemen  of  the  jury. '  It  is  sufficient  for  the 
puipQse  of  this  motioii  that  these  attempts 
nave  been  made. 

The  Affipavit  of  Mr.  Wu.  Jones  read : 

In  the  Court  of  Great  Session  for  the  County 
of  Denbigh,  the  King,  on  the  Prosecu- 
tion of  William  Jones,  gentleman,  against 
William  Davies  Shipley,  clerk,  on  an  In- 
dictment for  a  Misoemeanor. 

^  William  Jones,  of  Ruthin,  in  the  county 
of  Denbigh,  gentleman,  maketh  oath,  and 
•aith,  that  the  defendant  in  this  indictment. 
is,  as  this  deponent  believes,  supported  and 
aseisled  in  defending  the  said  indictment,  by 
a  eertain  society  of  persons,  calline  themselves 
the  Society  m  Constitutional  Information, 
and  tbAt  a  considerable  part  of  theexpence  of 
d^ndin^  the  same,  has  been^  and  is,  borne 
hy  the  said  society,  with  the  consent  and  ap- 
probation of  the  said  defendant;  he  this  de- 
ponent having  seen  and  conversed  on  the 
subject  with  one  Yates,  who  i>ublicly  acts  as 
^e  secrotaiy  of  the  said  society,  and  also^ 
with  another  member  of  the  said  society,  who 
informed  this  deponent  that  a  subscriptteri 
was  carrying  on  amongst  the  members  of  the 
•aid  society,  for  the  purpose  of  assisting  and 
supportiiig  the  said  defendant  in  his  defence 
to  the  caid  indictment;  and  this  deponent 
hath  the  more  reason  to  beUeve  the  said  so- 
ciety ooatribnte  to  the  «x{>ences  of  the  said 
dc^ndant  in  defending  this  indictment,  be- 
cause this  deponent  hath  seen  and  read  a  let* 
ter,  signed  with  and  published  with  th€^name 
of  the  ssud  defendant,  in  several  public  prints 
and  newspapers,  addressed  to  the  said  so- 
mtj,  which  this  depcment  believes  was  print- . 
od  m  such  prints  and  newspapers  with  the 
privity  of  the  said  defendant,  in  which  letter 
the  said  defendant  expresses  himself  to  be 
under  (^ligations  to  the  said  society  for  their 
assistance  on  this  occasion. 

**  And  this  deponent  iknher  saith,  That 
since  the  traverse  of  this  indictment  has  been 
at  issue,  and  during  the  present  great  session, 
a  person,  who  calls  himself  Thomas  Blahdi- 
aaer,  halh  distributed  and  dispersed  throu^ 
the  town  of  Wrexham,  and  the  parts  adja^ 
cent,  a  nuihberofpataiphlets  or  printed  pa- 


««■ 


•  See  AkCMOfvtofdiOit  rvl  HO,  p.  Ue9. 
VOL.  XXL 


MB,  of  the  same  tenor  and  purport  as  that 
hereunto  annexed. 

**  And  this  deponent  farther  saith,  that  on 
Saturday  last  he  saw  and  conversed  with  the 
said  Thomas  Blandimer,  who  declared  to  this 
deponent,  that  he  was  sent  down  from  Lon- 
don, by  one  Dr.  Brockelsby,  to  attend  tlie 
trial  of  this  indictment;  and  the  sudThomaa 
Blandimer,  at  the  same  time,  shewed  to  this 
deponent,  a  letter,  or  a  copy  of  a  letter,  from 
the  said  Dr.  Brockelsby  to  the  defendant,  re- 
commending the  said  Thomas  Blandimer  to 
his  notice. 

^  And  this  depcment  farther  saith,  that  the 
said  Thomas  Blandimer  also  declared  to  this 
deponent,  that  one  Mr.  Oldfield,  who,i  as  this 
deponent  hath  heard  and  believes,  is  another 
member  oi  the  said  society,  delivered  to  him 
the  said  Thomas  Blandimer,  a  great  number 
of  such  pamphlets  or  printed  papers,  for  the 
purpose  of  oistributine  the  same  at  this  pre- 
sent great  sesnon  to  tne  persons  summoned 
to  serve  as  jurors  upon  the  traverse  of  this  in- 
dictment ;  and  the  said  Thomas  Blandimer  at 
the  same  time  declared,  that  he  had  used  his 
endeavours  to  distribute  the  same  according- 
ly; and  this  deponent  submits  to  this  ho- 
nourable court,  that  the  obvious  and  manifest 
tendency  of  the  said  pamphlets  is  to  bias  and 
prejudice  the  minds  of  the  jurors,  and  to  pre- 
vent their  coming  to  hear  and  give  their  ver- 
dict on  the  said  traverse  with  impartiality 
and  indifference  between  the  parties. 

*'And  this  .deponent  fartner  suth,  that 
about  two  months  ago,  he  this  deponent  re- 
cdved  from  the  said  Yates,  who  acts  as  se- 
cretary to  the  said  society,  several  pamphlets 
or  minted  papers,  purporting  to  be  puDiished 
and  distributed  by  the  said  society,  in  some 
of  which  a  list  of  the  members  of  the  said  so- 
ciety is  contained,  and  in  which  list  the 
names  of  the  said  Dr.  Brockelsby  and  Mr, 
Oldfield  are  inserted  as  members  thereof. 

^'And  this  deponent  saith,  that  he  hath 
heard,  and  verily  believes,  that  the  said  Dr. 
Brockelsby  and  Mr.  Oldfield  are  members  of^ 
or  connected  with,  the  said  society. 

«  William  Jones." 

<<  Sworn  in  court,  this  1st  Sept.  1783. 

«  KEjrroN.'' 

[The  following  is  a  copy  of  the  printed 
paper  alluded  to  m  the  foregoing  deposition :] 

''  At  a  Meeting  of  the  Socivrr  for  Comstztu- 
TfONJLL  IvFoaMATioN  held  on  Friday, 
August  the  1st,  1783.  Dr.  Jmb  (Vice* 
President)  ia  the  chair. 

«  As  the  liberty  of  the  press  isaa  ol^ect  of 
the  greatest  importance,  and  essential  to  the 
existence  of  a  tree  state,  and  as  it  is  of  the 
utmost  consequence  to  the.  preservation  of 
this  great  privilege,  that  British  juries  should 
be  well  acqusunted  with  the  powers  with 
which  the  constitution  has  invested  them, 
especially  in  prosecutions  for  libels : 

^  Resolved,  Thut  the  two  following  e» 
3  I 


831] 


Proceedingi 


tracts  from  the  sixth  volume  of  British  Bio- 
graphy, on  the  powers  and  duty  of  juries,  in 
prosecutions  for  libels,  be  inserted  in  the 
books  of  this  society. 

"  Extract  from  the  Life  of  John  IJlbume, 
in  the  sixth  volume  of  Dr,  Towers's  British 
Biography,  8vo. 

**  Whether  juries  are  judges  of  law,  as  well 
as  of  fact,  is  a  matter  that  has  been  much 
controverted  by  some.  It  is  observed  by  an 
old  writer,  that  '  among  «ther  devices  to  un> 
'  dermine  the  rights  and  power  of  juries,  and 
'  render  them  insignificant,  there  has  been  an 
'  opinion  advancea  that  they  are  only  judges 
^  of  fact,  and  not  at  all  to  consider  the  law/ 
This  doctrine,  when  applied  to  the  case  of 
libels,  amounts  to  this :  that  if  any  man  is 
charged,  in  any  indictment^  or  by  an  infor- 
mation in  the  court  of  Km^s- bench,  with 
writing,  printing,  or  publishmg,  any  book, 
pamphlet  or  paper,  which  is  in  such  informa- 
tion or  indictment  stiled  a  libel,  it  is  not  the 
business  of  the  jury  to  enquire  whether  such 
book;  pamphlet,  or  paper,  really  be  a  libel  or 
not,  or  whether  it  contain  truth  or  falsehood ; 
but  only  into  the  simple  matter  of  fact,  whe- 
ther the  person  so  charged  be  the  author, 
printer,  or  publisher  of  such  book,  pamphlet, 
or  paiier ;  and  to  leave  the  matter  of  the  libel, 
the  aetermination  whether  it  be  a  hbel  or 
not,  entirely  to  the  court.  But  it  is  certain, 
that  a  custom  of  leaving  the  determination 
of  what  books  or  pamphlets  are  or  are  not 
libels  entirely  to  the  judges,  must  have  the 
most  fatal  tendency  with  respect  to  the  liber- 
ty of  the  press,  on  the  preservation  of  whidi 
all  our  other  rights  essentially  depend. 
Should,  in  any  future  period,  Uie  people  of 
England  be  governed  oy  a  corrupt,  oppres- 
sive, and  inicjuitous  ministry,  which  is  cer- 
tainlv  a  possible  and  suppos^le  case ;  and 
should  any  honest  Englishman  have  courage 
and  patriotism  enough  to  expose  the  bad  mea- 
sures of  such  a  ministry,  and  to  guard  his 
countrymen  afodnst  their  desisos ;  any  per- 
formance of  wis  tendency,  tnough  written 
with  the  most  upright  and  patriotic  inteo- 
tiohs,  would,  by  such  a  ministry,  be  most  cer- 
tainly deemed  a  seditious  libel ;  and  it  is  no 
great  improbability  to  suppose,  that  they 
might,  in  such  a  case,  get  some  justice  of  the 
court  of  King's-bench  to  pronounce  that  it 
was  so.  There  have  been  formerly  judges, 
who  were  at  tlie  beck  of  the  court,  and  there 
may  possibly  be  such  again.  If  then  the  jury 
are  not  to  jud^  of  the  law  as  well  as  of'^the 
fact,  but  to  follow  implicitly  the  opinion  of 
the  judge,  they  would  have  nothine  to  do  in 
such  a  case,  but  to  find  the  author  of  any  such 
production  ^Itv.  And  thus  a  man  would  be 
leguily  punished  for  an  action  as  a  crime,  for 
which  he  would  deserve  the  esteem  and  (he 
thauks  of  all  his  countrymen  *  and  this  in  a 
country  where  the  liberty  of^the  press  has 
been  long  boasted  of. 
.  *' It  is  aotoriousythatyio  man/ c«s€S^  juries 


do  constancy  judge  of  natters  of  law,  as  well 
as&ct.  Whenpersons  are  indicted  for  murder, 
it  is  a  matter  ot  law,  whether  the  action  com- 
mitted, provided  the  fact  be 'proved.  Ma 
under  toe  denomination  of  murder,  man- 
slaughter, chance-medl^.  or  self-defence; 
and  yet  these  matters  of  law  are  determined 
by  the  jury.  The  court  inform  the  iury  what 
it  is  that  constitutes  an  action  muroer,  mao- 
8lau^ter,&c  and  the  jury  themselves  af»ply 
these  general  principles  of  law  to  the  partKu- 
lar  fkct  which  they  are  appointed  to  try,  and 
then  bring  in  their  verdict  according  to  their 
own  judgments.  *  All  that  the  Judges  do/ 
(says  an  old  author)  *  b  but  advice^  thoueh 
'  in  matter  of  law ;  and  it  is  the  jiur  o^y 

*  that  judges  one  guilty,  or  not  guifty,  of 
'  murder,'  &c.  And  in  most  general  issues, 
as  upon  not  guilty  pleaded  in  trespasses, 
breacnes  of  the  peace,  or  felonies,  though  it 
be  matter  of  law  whether  the  party  be  a  tres- 
passer, a  breaker  of  the  peace,  or  a  felon,  yiet 
the  jury  do  not  find  the  fact  of  the  case  by  it- 
self, leaving  the  law  to  the  court ;  but  find 
the  i)arty  guilty  or  not '  ^Ity  generally. 
'  The  law/  (says  the  author  just  Quoted) '  oon- 

sidermg  the  great  burthen  that  lies  upon  the 
consciences  of  jurymen,  has  favoured  than 
with  this  liberty.  They  may  take  upon  them 
the  knowledge  of  what  the  law  is  in  the 
matter,  or  upon  the  truth  of  the  fact,  as  well 
as  the  knowledge  of  the  fact,  and  so  eive  in 
a  verdict  generally,  that  the  defendaat  b 
guilty  or  not'  Ana  if  it  be  the  custom  and 
the  right  of  juries  to  determine  the  matter  of 
law  in  other  cases,  what  reason  can  be  assign* 
ed  why  this  ri^t  should  be  taken  fix>m  tliem 
in  the  case  of  ubels  only  ? 

^  Dr.  Ellis,  formerly  bishop  of  St  David's^ 
remarks,  that  'when  the  cause  is  summed 
'  up,  the  jury  are  to  determine  it,'  i.  e.  they 
are  to  jud^  of  the  facts  upon  which  the  me- 
rit of  the  cause  turns.  How  far  such  facts 
are  criminal  in  law,  they  are  indeed  directed 
by  the  judges ;  but  stiU  they  are  at  liberty 
whether  they  will  be  wholly  governed  by  toe 
judees'  opinions  or  not ;  for  they  eve  their 
verdict  in  general,  so  that  though  they  tlub^ 
the  facts  sufficiently  proved,  yet  if  they  do  not 
think,  as  the  judges  think,  that  such  tacts  are 
criminal,  they  need  not  bring  in  the  parties 
guilty.  The  great  judge  Ly^eUm^  in  nis  Te- 
nures, sect  386,  declares,  '  that  ii  a  jury  wUI 
^  take  upon  them  the  knowledge  of  th^  law 

*  upon  the  matter,  they  may ;'  wnich  b  agreed 
to  by  lord  Vjokt  in  hb  Com.  thereupon :  and 
sir  Matt.  Hale  says,  *  that  Uiehuy  are  judges 

*  not  only  of  the  fact,  but  of  the  law.'  And 
it  seems  probable,  that  by  law  the  juries  in  idl 
cases  ought  to  be  the  judges  of  points  of  law, 
as  weilaaoffiict;  bemuse  orieinally  the  per- 
sons of  the  iuiy  seem  to  have  been  of  the  na- 
ture of  judges,  and  to  have  sat  upon  tha 
bench. 

^  Dr.  Pettingal  lemarks,  that  <  the  author 

*  of  the  Trial  per  lials,  or  law  of  Juriei^ 

*  tliDugb )io  ap^eiioQiptiBieato  the  opinio^ 


833J 


fh/r  a  Seditious  LibeL 


A.  D.  1785* 


[854 


^  of  their  being  oonfioed  to  matters  of  fact 
f  only,  as  in  p.  930, -of  the  edition  in  black 

*  letter,  yet  a  little  after  he  sa^s,  p.  951,  *  A 

*  special  verdict  is  a  plain  proof  that  the  jury 
'  are  judges  of  law,  as  well  as  facts ;  for  leav- 

*  ing  the  judgment  of  the  law  to  the  court 

*  implies,  that  if  thejr  pleased  they  had  that 

*  power  of  judgment  in  themselves/    Again, 

*  p.  336,  be  says,  '  When  the  question  is  ask- 
f  ed  the  jury,  guilty  or  not  gmlty,  which  in- 
^  dudes  the  law.  in  their  answer  they  resolve 

*  both  law  and  tkcV '  And  beyond  all  doubt 
tlus  reasoning  is  right  and  just ;  for  how  can 
a  jury  dedaie  guilty  or  not  guilty,  unless  they 
compare  the  ract  with  the  law,  and  thereby 
judge  how  hr  the  hd  comes  within  the  pe- 
nalty annexed  to  the  breach  of  the  law  ?  and 
how  can  they  compare  without  being  judges 
of  one  as  well  as  the  other  ?  But  notwith- 
standing, this  doctrine  of  juries  not  being 
judges  of  law,  broached  in  bad  times,  and  de- 
signed for  the  worst  purposes,  long  prevailed 
in  Westminster-hall,*-— ~yet  a  great  and 
learned  judge  (lord  Camden)  as  I  am  inform- 
ed, lately  declared,  to  his  great  honour,  from 
the  bench,  that  the  jury  are  judges  of  law  as 
well  as  fact. 

^  We  have  one  late  remarkable  instance, 
«nd  that  a  noble  one,  of  an  English  jury's  as- 
serting their  right  to  determine  the  matter  of 
law,  as  well  as  the  matter  of  fact.  In  1759, 
Mr.  William  Owen,*  bookseller,  was  tried  in 
the  court  of  King's-bench,  before  lord  chief 
Lee,  for  publishing  a  pamphlet,  intitled,  ^The 
/  C&se  ot  Alexander  Murray,  esq.  in  an  Ap- 
.<  peal  to  the  People  of  Great  Britain.'  This 
piece  had  been  voted  by  the  House  of  Com- 
mons to  be  an  impudent,  malicious,  scandal- 
ous, and  seditious  libel ;  and  the  House  had 
thereupon  addressed  the  king  to  prosecute 
the  author,  printer^  and  pubBsher  thereof; 
and  the  author  havmg  left  thelcinedom,  the 
prosecution  fell  upon  the  bookseller.  The 
fact  of  the  publication  was,  in  the  course  of 
the  trial,  very  clearly  prove^l :  and  the  judee, 
in  summing  up  the  evidence,  gave  it  as  his 
opinion,  that  the  iury  ought  to  find  the  de- 
fendant guilty,  for  ne  thought  the  publication 
was  fully  proved,  and,  if  so,  they  could  not 
avoid  bringing  the  defendant  in  guil^ :  for  it 
was  the  opimon  of  the  court,  that  tne  pam- 
phlet was  a  scandalous  and  seditious  libel, 
and  it  had  been  voted  to  be  so  by  the  House 
of  Commons.  But  the  jury  thought  ttiey  had 
arieht  to  determine  the  matter  of  law,  as 
well  as  the  matter  of  fact ;  and  they  were  re- 
solved to  assert  that  right :  they  thoueht 
there  was  truth  and  reason  in  the  pamphlet 
before  them,  which  had  been  deemed  a  hbel ; 
and,  therefore,  notwithstanding  the  opinion 
of  the  judge,  and  the  vote  of  the  House  of 
Commons^  Uiey  brought  in  the  bookseller  not 
guilty. 

'*  it  appears  evidently  from  the  venr  design 
of  the  institutbn  of  Junes,  as  well  as  nom  the 

*SMTo).18,p.lS03. 


I 


declarations  of  the  greatest  lawyers,  that  the 
jurors  are  the  proper  judges  of  the  whole  of 
the  matters  which  they  are  appointed  to  try. 
'  Whether  an  act  was  done  in  such  or  such  a 
'  manner,'  sa}[S  sir  John  Uawles,  '  or  to  such 

*  or  such  an  intent,  the  jurors  are  judges : 
^  fbn  the  court  is  not  jud^  of  these  matters, 
^  which  are  evidence  to  prove  or  disprove  the 
^  tiling  in  issue.    And  therefore  the  witnesses 

*  are  always  ordered  to  (hrect  their  sj[)eech  to 

*  the  jury ;  they  beii^  the  proper  judges  of 
^  their  testimony.'  As  then  it  is  the  right 
and  duty  of  jurymen  to  jud^  entirely  of  the 
whole  matter  before  them,  it  seems  easy  to 
discern  what  is  the  proper  business  of  the 
judse.  He  is  to  state  the  law  to  the  juiy, 
and  he  may  deliver  his  opinion,  where  the 
case  is  difficult ;  but  they  are  und^r  no  obli- 

fation  to  be  guided  implicitly  by  that  opinion, 
he  office  of  a  judge,  Coke  observes,  is  Jus 
dicerCf  not  jut  dare  r  not  to  make  any  law 
by  strains  of  wit,  or  forced  interpretations ; 
but  plainly  and  impartiall  v  to  declare  the  law 
already  established.  Anc  the  jury  are  to  ap- 
ply the  general  rules  and  maxims  of  law,  or 
any  paiticular  statute  or  statutes,  to  the-  par- 
ticular feet  which  is  the  object  of  their  en- 
quiry. This  being  the  case,  the  dutv  of  a 
judge,  in.  the  business  of  libels,  as  well  as  in 
other  matters,  is  very  plain.  Hris  to  inform 
the  jury  what  the  law  says  concerning,  libels,, 
and  they  are  to  apply  that  law  to  the  particu- 
lar fact  m  question.  This  is  the  method  in 
which  tiie  judges  act,  when  they  act  rightly, 
in  otiier  matters ;  and  in  this  manner  they 
certainly  ought  to  act  in  the  case  of  libels, 
lliey  are  not  to  dictate  to  the  jury  what  ver- 
dict they  are  to  bring  iir ;  but  only  to  inform 
their  judgments,  by  instructing  them  in  such 
points  of  law  as  they,  from  their  situation  in 
life,,  may  reasonably  oe  supposed  ta  be  unac- 
quainted with.  A  judge  ought  not  to  say  to 
a  juiv,  '  This  book,  pamphlet,  or  paper,  is  a 
^  libel ;  and  if  you  are  convinced  that  this 
'  man  wrote,  printed,  or  published  it,  you 
'  must  find  him  guilty ;'  but  should  first  de- 
clare to  them  \^ial  the  law  says  concerning 
libels ;  and  then  leave  them  to  apply  it  to  the 
point  in  question.  And  Hawles  observes, 
that  '  if  merely  in  compliance,  because  th^ 
'judee  says  thus  or  thus,  a  jury  shall  give  a 

*  veraict,  though  such  a  veroict  should  hap- 
'  pen  to  be  rieht,  true,  and  just ;  yet  they, 
'  being  not  well  assured  it  is  so,  from  their 
'  own  understanding,  are  forsworn,  at  least  in 
\foro  comcientia.'  Nor  ought  any  jury  to  be 
influenced  by  either  judges,  or  counsel,  who 
torture  senteiKes  in  any  book,  or  paper,  stiled 
a  libel,  into  a  bad  sense,  when  they  are  capa- 
ble of  bearing  a  good  one ;  for  it  is  a  maxim 
in  law,  that  '  Verba  accipienda  sunt  in  mi- 

*  tiori  sensu ;'  words  are  to  be  taken  in  Uiat 
sense  which  is  most  innocent.  And  every 
jury  should  remember,  that  they  may  pre- 
sume nothing  but  innocency ;  and  that  tncy 
ought  to  do,  until  the  contrary  be  proved. 

"  An  ingenious  writer  well  observes,  that 


23  GEORGE  HI.     ProceedmgB  agabui ^  BeanofSi.  Asaph^     [850 

eridence  hid  been  givoa  lathe jiHyr  thai  ihe 
letters   in  atieslioii  were  written  ^  faiaely, 
'  seaiKialQusly^  malidouslyy  and  aeditioasly,' 
Jefieries  made  the  Mlownig  t«narkft  m  ms 
chsij^  to  the  Jury :  *  It  h»  been  objected^ 
'  (said  he)  that  inaamiichas  the  woids  mbelyy 
sedilioaslv,  maficioosly,  factiausly,  and  the 
like  wotds,  aie  in  the   information^  they 
would  ha;ve  jou  believe,  that  there  beine  no 
eyidence  of  any  socb  thing  as  faction,  maiieey 
or  aeditBODy  or  that  the  man  did  it  nali- 
ciously,  and  advisedly,  and  seditiously  (whieh 
are  ihe  words  in  tiie  ptemises,  aa  I  may  citt 
them,  or  the  ffeaari>ie  of  the  infoimatian) 
therefore  they  aonst  be  acqmtled  of  that  part: 
Now  as  to  tl»t,  I  told  them  then,  and  tell 
you  now,  eentlcmeiiytfaaC  no  man  living  can 
discover  me  maKcioua  evil  designs  and  at- 
tentions of  any  other  man,  so  as  to  give 
evidence  of  tiiem,  but  by  their  wirds  ami 
actions.    No  man  can  prove  what  I  intend^ 
but  1^  my  words  and  actions.    TheBefore,  it 
one  Aj^  compass  and  imagine  the  death  qf 
the  kmg,  that,  by  our  law,  is  high  tneason  ^ 
but  whedier  or  no  he  be  guilty  Q«  this  tiea^ 
son,  so  as  to  be  convicted  of  it  bv  another,  is 
not  proveable,  or  discoverable,  but  by  some 
woros  or  actions,  whereby  &e  imaginatioQ 
may  be  nwnifestaL    And  therefore  my  ima^ 
g^ning,  my  conpasaina,  which  is  private  im 
my  own  mind,  must  oe  snbmitted  to  the 
judgment  that  reason  and  the  law  passctii 
upon  Bjy  words  or  actions;  and  then  the 
action  itstlf  being  prayed,  that  diaeovera 
with  what  Bdad  the  thing  was  dooe.    Sud^ 
pose  any  man,  without  jKovocatet,  fciil3 
another ;  the  words  of  the  indictment  aa^ 
that  he  did  it  malicieiBly,  felenioasly,  amt 
having  the  fear  of  God  before  faia  r^es,  but 
being  moved  and  sedaced  by  the  inslig|ib> 
tion  of  tiie  devil.    Now  all  tbete  thinea^ 
whether  he  had  the  fear  of  God  beforehis 
eves^-or  not ;  or  whether  he  were  moved  by 
the  mstigstioa  of  the  devil,  andof  his  maliGa 
forethoi^i*,  or  no;  these  cannot  be  knowi^ 
till  they  come  to  be  proved  by  the  actiea 
that  is  done.    So  in  case  any  person  doflli 
write   tibels,  or  publish  any  eipressions^ 
which  in  diemselves  cany  sedilion,  and  fec- 
tion,andill-witt  towards  ^egovermnent;  I 
cannot  tell  well  how  to  express  it  otherwise 
in  his  accusation,  than  by  soch  words,  that 
he  did  it  seditiously,  fectiouslyy  and  mali* 
ciously.    And  the  proof  of  the  tiling  itself 
proves  the  evil  mind  it  was  done  with,    l^ 
then,  gentlemen,  you  believe  the  defendani^ 
sir  Samuel  Bemavdiston,  did  write  and  mIk 
lish  these  letters,  that  is  proefesNigh  ar  the 
words,   maiicioialy,   sedttioaaly,  and   iae- 
tiously ,  laid  in  the  informatioa.'  * 
*'  We  have  the  rather  made  this  fjuotaiiMi 
from  Jefienes*s  speech  on  this  occasion,  b^ 
cause  arguments  to  the  same  purpose,  and  ii:^- 
deed  nearly  in  the  same  words,  have  been 
since  made  use  of  m  tibel-caasesv  by  men 

•  am  voL  9i  p.  tast. 


855] 

there  is  a  constitutional  reasob  of  iainite 
moment  to  a  free  people^  why  a  jury  shouU  i 
of  themselves  always  determine  whether 
any  thing  be  or  be  not  a  libel.  It  is  this, 
that  ninety-nine  times  out  of  a  hundred, 
these  informations  for  puUic  libels  are  a  dis- 
pute between  the  ministers  and  the  people  ; 
and,  in  my  conscience,  this  very  circum- 
stance has  made  our  progenitors  retain  to 
themselves  the  power  of  determining  both 
the  law  and  the  fact,  with  respect  to  libels,' 
although  they  waved  or  ceded  to  the  judges 
the  power  of  detemuning  the  law  in  all 
other  respects.  Having  acquiesced  in  the 
power  exercised  by  the  attorney  general,  of 
informing  against  what  he  pleases  as  a  libel, 
they  were  resolved  not  to  port  with  the  pre- 
rogative of  judging  finally  upon  the  matter 
themselves ;  and  m  my  poor  opinion,  had 
they  done  so,  we  shouul,  long  before  this, 
not  only  have  lost  the  liberty  of  the  pres8|, 
but  cvciy  other  liberty  besides.' 
**  In  short,  the  real  cause  why  some  iudges 
have  been  so  desirous  of  propagating  the  no- 
tion that  juries  are  oidy  iudges  of  ract,  and 
not  of  hkw,  seems  to  be  this ;  that  this  doc- 
trine tends  to  advance  their  own  power  and 
authority,  and  enables  them  the  tietter,  on 
many  occasions,  to  carry  a  favourite  point. 
But  we  should  ever  remember,  that  as  trial 
by  jury  is  one  of  the  most  valuable  privileges 
of  Englishmen^  so  it  is  of  the  utmost  import- 
ance that  the  rights  of  jurymen  should  be  well 
understood,  and  resolutely  mnntained.  ¥id. 
Pettinj^ars  Epnuiry  into  the  Use  and  Prac- 
tice or  Juries,  etc.  Letter  concerning  libels, 
Warraots,  the  Seizure  of  Papers,  &c.  Ellis's 
Liberty  of  Subjects  in  Eqgland,  and  Enquiry 
into  the  Question,  Whether  Juries  are  Judges 
of  Law  as  well  as  Fact  ?  8vo.  1764." 

•'Extract  from  the  Life  of  Lord  Chief  Justice 
Jefieries,in  the  same  Work ; 

• 

'<  In  February,  1663^  air  Samuel  Bemanfis- 
ton,  bart  was  tried  before  sir  George  Jefei^s 
for  the  pubUcation  of  several  scandalons  and 
malicious  libels.  This  gentieman  was  well 
known  to  be  no  friend  to  the  deq»otic  mea- 
sures of  Charles  the  second,  and  was  there- 
fore obnoxious  to  the  court,  but  nothing  could 
be  found  on  which  to  ground  a  prosecution 
aaainsthim,  but  by  tSe  scandalous  practice 
or  intercepting,  his  private  letters.  Four  of 
these,  written  m  confidence  to  his  friends,  and 
containing  nothing  more  than  some  free  re- 
marks on  the  state  of  public  aflairs  at  that 
time,  were  the  libels  which  he  was  prosecuted 
fat  pubhshine,  by  sending  them  to  the  post- 
office;  for  ^t  was  the  only  method  in 
which  he  had  published  them.  JefFeries  took 
abundant  puns  to  cause  this  ^entieman  to  be 
condemned ;  and  the  jury  bem^  either  weak 
or  wicked  enough  to  bring  him  in  guilty,  the 
chief  justice  had  the  conscience  to  fine  him 
10,000/. 

**  It  being  observed  on  this  occasion  by 
air  Samuel  Bemaidiston^s  counsel,  that  no 


8S73 


JbrJtaiilUm»LH$k 


who  would  not  be  tbon^t  to  lodtatB  this  in- 
ftoAOos  chief  justice.  But  every  mao  mut 
SM  the  fallacy  of  this  kind  of  reasoning.  In 
the  cade  Jefferies  mentioHB,  of  compassing 
and  imagining  the  deatii  of  the  king,  then 
most  be-  a  proof  of  some  overt-act  to  evidence 
aoch  a  treasonable  design.  In  the  case  of 
fliurder,  the  proof  of  the  act  itself  is  a  suffix 
dent  evidence  of  guilt ;  beeaose  to  kill  any 
man,  unfeas  it  be  by  accident,  or  in  self-de* 
fence,  b  an  illegal  ajid  wicked  act  But  the 
ease  of  libeU  is  essentially  different  If,  in  a 
trial  for  a  Hbel,  nothing  is  proved  but  the 
writing  or  pnblication,  tl:^  is  no  guilt  of  any 
kind  proved,  unless  it  be  proved  to  Ihe  jnry, 
thaft  the  book  or  writing  really  is  what  it  is 
atiled  in  the  information  or  indictment ;  for 
writing  or  f«iblishing  are,  inr  themselves,  in- 
nocent and  indifferent  actions.  Jcflfeiies  in* 
deed  says,   *  in  case  any  person  doth  wvits 

*  libels,  or  pubhsh  any  expi esaons,  whidi  in 

*  themseWet  carry  sedition  and  faction,  and 
'  ill-will  towards  the  government,  I  cannot  tell 

*  well  how  to  express  it  otherwise  m  his  aceu^ 
'  aation,  than  by  such  words,  that  he  did  it 
'  seditiously,  factiously,  and  maficiously.* 
And  this  observation  raisht  be  allowed,  if 
Je£fehes,  and  those  who  have  imitated  him, 
kad  left  it  to  the  jury  to  determine,  whether 
the  writings  or  books  in  question  did  really 
contain  *  exyr^mom^  which  in  themselves 

*  cany   sedition,   and   faction,    and   iUUwill 

*  towards  the  ^emmenl'  But  neither  JeA 
isnes  nor  his  imiflaitors,  have  ever  done  tl^. 
They  have  always  laboured  to  make  juries 
take  it  for  granted,  on  their  mere  ipse  tk»Uf 
that  the  books  or  writsnes  in  question  were 
scandalous,  seditious,  and  malicious  libels,  or 
whatever  else  thev  Mwe  thought  nveper  to 
atile  them.  And  this  ]flractioe,  and  tnese  doc- 
Wrine^,  have  been  much  inculcated  by  certun 
crown  lawyers,  and  sueh  judges  as  have  been 
disposed  at  all  events  to  gratify  the  court. 
But  it  is  the  duty  of  jurymen  to  judge  f6r 
themselves ;  and  that  they  shoukl  do  so,  is  of 
the  utmost  importance  to  the  freedom  of  the 
presB ;  on  the  preservation  of  which  alt  onr 
ether  rights  do  most  essentially  depend. 

^  TnoMAS  Yates,  See. 
**  Prmted  and  cttsttributed  gratis  by  the  So- 
ciety for  ConstitutiMial  Information.'' 

1^.  Bomer,  The  affidavit  and  the  pamr 
annexed  to  it  having  been  read,  I  shall  trouble 
vour  lovdships  with  very  few  observations  in- 
deed upon  it.  At  the  same  time,  before  I 
make  any,  I  wish  it  to  be  understood  by  every 
gentleman  upon  the  jury,  that  if  they  have 
conceived  the  smallest  roleetion  is  cast  upon 
tliem,  or  aliy  of  them,  by  this  motion — 

Lord  Chief  Justice  Kenyan,*  Certairiy 
there  is  not 

Mr.  Bower,  A»U>  the  paper  itself,  l9ie  eon- 
tents  of  it  appear  too  obvious  to  require  any 

*  Afkerwirds  BQooegsiTely  Master  of  lbs  Rdlf, 
aad  Ck  /est  B.  K 


A.  v.  1783;  ffiBB 

tobermideupen  it;  yDor-Iordsbtpi 
will  abonce  see  whether  it  has  that  tendency 
whiclc  is  imputed  to  it  I  shall  not  tmuhle 
tour  lordships  with  arguing  nhat  question^ 
because  it  would  be.  as  it  seems  to  me,  as  nu» 

Story  as  to  argue  tnat  the  sun  shines  at  noon 
V.  The  only  question  will  be,  whether  it 
is  broujKiht  home  to  the  defendant  Now  the 
affidarv'it  is  sworn  in  a  way  that  is  liable  to 
contradictbn,  if  anv  contradiction  ca^  be 
given  to  it :  that  tiiese  ]Mipers  were  di^bfr- 
Mited  by  tiie  agents  of  this  society,  and  for 
the  reasons  given,  we  have  proved ;  and  titet 
the  defendant  and  the  Constitutional  Society 
afeoneand  the  same  people;  in  the  case  of 
the  King  v.  Martha  Gray,*  who  was  indicted 
for  a  nuisance,  at  Richmond  Park,f  thiire 
papers  had  been  distributed  previous  to  the 
trial ;  upon  an  application  to  the  court  upon 
that^  ground,  the  trial  was  put  off,  with  the 
consent  of  the  counsel  for  the  defenKdant;  bat 
the  noble  lord  who  presided  at  tiiat  assize, 
was  of  «pmion,  and  -declared  it  most  tho* 
roughly  and  fully,  that  he  should  have  put 
off  that  trial  if  there  had  not  been  any  such 
consent  The  case  there  was,  the  distributing 
of  papers  by  the  defendanfs  brother  only, 
and  it  was  never  brought  home  to  the  defen! 
dant  I  submit  to  your  k>rdships,  that  this 
case  is  much  stronger ;  it  is  brought  home  to 
the  defendant;  for  unless  the  defendteuit  can 
say  that  he  disclaims  all  the  asnstance  of  that 
societv,  that  he  has  never  had  any  from  it  in 
any  shape  whatever^  and  that  the  society  no 
wav  interfere  in  this  prosecution,  I  trust  that 
unless  that  answer  to  our  affidavit  is  given  in 
the  most  pointed  and  direct  tenns>  your  lord- 
ships will  think  this  an  application  not  to  be 
resisted,  and  will  put  off  ttus  trial  till  another 
great  session. 

Mr.  Enkine.  Will  Mr.  Bower  indulge  me 
so  fbr  as  to  state  what  was  the  substance  of 
those  papers  that  were  distrftuted  in  the  case 
of  the  King  verwt  Martha  Gray  ? 

Mr.^ovsr.'I  do  not  know;  the  case  does 
not' report  it 

Mf,  Erskine,  I  wished  you  could  have 
stated  it  to  the  court,  for  I  know  what  it  was. 

Mr.  Mdmky.  Though  your  lordships  should 
think  the  publication  itself  is  not  sufficient 
cause  to  put  off  tiie  trial,  yet,  I  trust  your 
lordBhip|S  will  be  of  opinion,  that  when  ac- 
companied with  the  circtunstances  stated  in 
this  affidavit,  you  cannot  do  a  greater  benefit 
to  the  public,  to  society  at  large,  than  by  do- 


M      "I 


«  1  Baiv.  510. 

f  or  tUt  tMDfselfion,  vrfaidi,  Kbougk  now  perkapt 
genenlly  torgollea,  ia  its  dcy  ezdtod  AKteosive  aai- 
■Hisiiyf  SM  Gopiou  aoeonata  m  th*  periodical 
pabUoslioot  of  Ao  tine;  iii  LyMna't  Bdvunmm  of 
lioadoB,  arliole  Rioluaoiid ;  and  ia  Gillierl  Waka* 
fleld'ft  Mottoite  q£  bU  own  life.  T1»  Riohmoad 
Park  bniinew  affords  a  slrong  iUuaUmtion  of  an  iav 
teresting  remark  made  by  De  Lolme  respecting  the 
sait  between  lord  GrosTonor  and  the  duke  of  Cam- 
berland.  See  Db  Lo)me*s  Conatitatioii  of  BngUnd^ 
p.  373,  note,  ed.  of  1807. 


8591 


2S  GEORGE  ttt.    Proceedhigi  againa  ike  Dean  tfSi.  ifMp&,     [860 


featine  the  influence  which  a  body  of  men 
like  toe  Constitutional  Society  have  endea^ 
voured  to  effect,  by  dispersing  these  papers 
in  this  eountry,  for  though  I  have  the  hignest 
opinion  of  the  gentlemen  who  at  present  ap- 
pear upon  this  jury,  and  of  the  freeholders  at 
hrge  of  this  county,  yet  I  trust  that  your  lord- 
ships will  be  of  Opinion,  that  this  pamphlet 
must  necessarily  have  some  influence,  and  I 
hope  and  trust,  therefore,  that  your  lordships 
mh  endeavour  to  defeat  that. 

Mr.  Richardt*  I  am  also  of  coimsel  for 
the  prosecution ;  I  shall  not  trouble  your 
lordships  with  any  argument,  as  it  is  impos- 
»ble  for  me  to  add  any  thing  to  what  has  been 
already  offered  to  yOur  lordships. 

The  Honourable  Thoma$  Enkine.  I  shall 
trouble  your  lordships  with  but  very  few  ob- 
servations in  answer  to  this  very  extraordi- 
nary motion ;  and,  my  lords,  I  feel  it  to  be  a 
^ery  preat  consolation  that  what  we  are  doing 
jfiere  is  not  doing  in  a  corner;  that  the  eyes 
of  the  public,  and  of  a  free  and  enlighten^ 
public^  are  upon  us,  and  that  whatever  your 
lordships  do,  and  whatever  I  say,  will  be 
judg^  of  b^  the  world.  I  am  persuaded  that 
your  lordships'  decision  will  be  just,  and  I 
have  tiierefore  the  most  perfect  confidence 
that  that  decision  will  be  with  me.  That  a 
trial  may*be  put  off  where  any  person,  whe- 
ther connected  with  the  party  or  not,  has 
distributed  matters  relative  to  and  pointed  to 
the  circumstances  of  the  case  which  is  to  be 
determined  in  a  court  of  justice,  I  conceive  to 
be  a  matter  perfectly  clear ;  and  I  should  be 
utterly  aduamed  to  take  the  exception  that 
the  defendant  was  no  party  to  the  distribu- 
tion, if  the  pamphlet  that  has  been  read  in 
court  was  such  a  pamphlet  as  ought  in  itself^ 
coming  fi'om  whatever  quarter,  to  be  a  reason 
for  not  trying  the  cause.  I  should  be  asliamed 
to  make  the  exception,  because  I  admit  that 
there  is  no  administering  justice  with  pro- 
priety, if  ihe  minds  of  the  jurors  are,  by  any 
channel,  and  in  any  way,  perverted  with  re- 
spect to  the  trisd  of  the  psurticular  cause  which 
thev  are  sworn  to  determine.  On  this  prin- 
ciple, if  there  were  an  issue  ioined  between 
two  individuals,  or  between  his  imuesty  and 
the  subject,  as  in  the  case  of  this  inoictment, 
and  any  man,  or  set  of  men,  should  publish 
a  defence  of  the  defendsmt,  and  should  exar- 
xnine  particularly  and  minutely  all  the  mat- 
ters 01  the  cause,  and  it  could  be  brought 
home  that  that  paper  had  found  its  way  to  Uie 
jurors  who  were  to  try  it,  I  should  not  be 
afraid,  as  a  judge,  of  exercising  that  preroga- 
'dve  of  discretion  which  must  belong  to  uie 
judicial  character  in  every  coimtry,  namely,  the 
power  of  postponing,  upon  such  an  occasion, 
any  species  ot  trial ;  but  I  think  I  hazard  very 
litiue  m  making  this  admission,  after  having 
listened  with  some  attention  to  the  paper 
which  has  been  read. 


*  Now  (March  1814)  one  of  tbe  Barons  of  Uie 
Ooort  of  Bxobeqaer, 


'  My  lords,  when  I  seethe  name  of  Williani 
Jones  to  the  affidavit  on  which  the  motion  is 
founded,  and  when  I  reflect  that  that  Wilham 
Jones  b  ^e  prosecutor,  and  when  I  fiirther 
recollect  the  Ini^  part  that  very  gentleman 
ha9  taken  in  informing  the  public — not  merely 
of  the  general  priaaples  of  the  ccmstitutioa 
— not  of  the  general  ri&hts  of  jurors  in  the 
trial  of  every  question  uiat  can  be  agitated,, 
but  of  the  circumstances  of  this  particular 
cause,  and  not  only  that,  a  pointed  libellous 
defamation  of  the  defendant,  and  a  condem- 
nation of  the  particulai:  thing  which  he  him- 
self has  brought  him  into  mis  court  to  an- 
swer for :  my  lords,  when  I  reflect  on  these 
things,  I  may  have  leave  to  observe,  that, 
whatever  may  be  the  merits  of  this  applica- 
tion, it  comes  very  ill  indeed  from  him.  Bui 
I  mean  to  resist  thif  matter  upon  the  injus- 
tice and  impropriety  of  it. 

My  lords,  as  to  the  Constitutional  Society, 
they  are  a  body  of  men  who  devote  them- 
selves to  the  propagation  of  that  knowledge, 
without  which  we  are  no  longer  a  peopfe; 
they  are  ready  to  answer  for  themselv^ :  mey 
are,  as  your  lordships  know,  many  of  them 
characters  of  great  respect  and  consideration 
in  this  country ;  many  of  them  members  of 
both  houses  of  parliament ;  and  when  they 
see  themselves  thus  arr^gned,  no  doubt  they 
will  find  means  to  do  themselves  justice. 

My  lords,  thou^  I  have  not  the  gif^  of 
prophecy,  I  did  foresee  that  some  attempt  or 
other  would  be  made  to  put  off  this  trial ;  I 
knew  that  they  felt  it  impossible  to  face  these 
gentlemen  who  stand  before  me ;  I  did  con* 
ceive  some  pretence  would  be  laid  hold  of; 
but  httle  did  I  think  that  the  ^>plication 
would  have  been  of  this  sort  Your  lordships 
will  be  pleased  first  of  all  to  recollect-— and  I 
shall  verify  this  matter  by  an  affidavit  from 
the  defenoant — ^that  the  pamphlet  which  the 
dean  of  St.  Asaph  stands  indicted  for  being 
the  publisher  of^  was  the  work  of  sir  Wilham 
Jones  ;  who  (his  mi^esty,  our  gracious  master, 
knowing  him  to  be  the  author  of  it ;  his  mi- 
nisters knovring  him  to  be  the  author  of  it^ 
the  public  knowing  him  to  be  the  author  of 
it)  was  appointed  to  administer  the  justice  of 
this  great  country,  in  the  remotest  parts  of 
the  empire,  where  seditious  characters  ou^ht 
not  to  be  sent ;  be  that  as  it  may,  sir  ^^n. 
Jones,  not  the  dean  of  St.  Asaph,  was  the  au- 
thor of  this'publication ;  and  tnat  worthy  gen- 
tleman, whose  name  and  character  I  respect, 
who  is  incapable  of  sedition,  or  of  any  other 
corrupt  quauty  of  the  heart,  and  whose  taleuts 
and  virtues  are  known  to  many  who  hear  me, 
avowed  himself  to  be  the  author  of  it  Sir 
Wm.  Jones  was  a  member  of  this  Society  for 
the  Propagation  of  Constitutional  Knowledge ; 
and  that  very  pamphlet,  for  which  we  are 
standing  here  indicted;  and  which  I  shall  in- 
sist we  have  a  right  to  be  tried  upon  to-day^ 
was  published  by  the  Constitutional  Society  - 
themselves^  as  the  work  of  this  worthy  mem- 
ber of  their  own  body,  upon  the  second  of 


S61]  Jhfr  a  Sedkiaui 

August.  irSCy  six  months  before  it  was  Tq>ub- 
lished  Dv  the  dean;  for  which  xepublication 
he  is  callod  here  to  answer  before  your  lord- 
ships. 

iHv  lords,  if  when  a  defendant  is  indicted  for 
a  publication  of  this  sort,  it  be  thought  an  an- 
swer to  the  bringing  on  a  trial  thata  great  bodv 
of  men  are  interested^  and  tetively  mterested, 
in  the  issue  of  it,  neither  your  lordships^  nor 
an^  other  judges,  will  ever  try  a  question  of 
this  nature,  for  I  hope  in  €i<k1  that  I  never 
shall  live  to  see  the  time  when  any  thing  of 
this  sort  shall  be  published  bv  any  individual, 
that  everv  honest  man  of  the  country  shall 
not  stand  up  vigorously  in  his  defence.  I 
should  be  of  tlutt  opinion,  and  however  it 
may  suit  your  lordships,  I  am  not  afiraid,  in 
this  or  an^  other  court  of  justice,  to  say,  that 
it  is  the  right  of  every  subject  of  England, 
when  he  conceives  another  man  is  unjustly 
arraigned — ^not  for  a  private  act  against  ano- 
ther—not for  a  private  wrong  against  ano- 
ther, which  is  barratry,  fori!  I  am  either 
guilty  of  a  tresfiass,  of  an  assault  and  battery, 
or  any  other  private  wrong,  and  that  i>rivate 
wrong  is  made  either  the  subject  of  an  indict^ 
ment  or  an  acuon,  perhaps  no  man,  or  body 
of  meu,  are  to  support  me  ;  but  because  men 
Dot  very  ignorant,  nor  without  a  great  stake 
in  the  country  to  lead  them  to  be  aware  of 
countenancing  sedition,  t^nk  fit  to  support 
the  lenity  of  the  general  doctrines  in  the 
paper  mdicted,  and  to  publish  to  the  whole 
world,  the  general  duties  of  jurors  contained 
in  the  other,  on  which  the  motion  is  founded, 
who  shall  say  that  that  is  a  reason  not  to  try 
the  cause  ^  and  if  it  be  a  reason,  when  is  the 
cause  to  be  tried?  for  would  your  lordships' 
postponing  the  trial  induce  that  public  spirit- 
ed Dody  of  men  to  remit  their  labours  in  that 
which  they  think  beneficial  to  the  public  ? 

I  will  now  state  what  this  Constitutional 
Society  has  done ;  and  if  your  lord^ps  think 
fit  upon  that  to  i>ut  off  the  trial,  I  am  sure 
your  lordships  will  have  the  free  consent  of 
the  dean  of  St  Asaph  and  myself;  since, 
whether  we  are  tried,  or  whether  we  are  not, 
we  shall  be  acouitted  in  the  eyes  of  an  im- 
partial public.  The  crime  does  not  depend 
upon  eiUinsic evidence — it  is  printed;  be- 
yond that  printine  the  advocates  for  the 
crown  know  that  they  have  no  proof.  The 
crime  has  therefore  been  read ;  and  it  seems 
it  is  an  additional  crime  in  others,  that  ours 
has  been  re-published  by  way  of  defending 
us.  This  body  of  men,  called  the  Constitu- 
tional Sodety,  are  arraigned  for  having  taken 
upon  them  part  of  the  expence  of  this  trial. 

Lord  Chief  Justice  Kenyan.  That  is  not 
imputed  to  them  as  any  crime  as  I  know  of. 

Mr.  Leycetter.  We  have  stated  the  fact. 
We  have  not  stated  it  as  any  offence. 

Mr.  Enkine,  You  thought  the  &ct  mate- 
rial, or  you  would  have  expunged  it  from  the 
affidavit. 

Mr.  L^fcetter.    Undoubtedly. 

Ur.  Mrtkin€.^  Tbaa  if  it  w^  vMtnti  to 


A.  D.  178S. 


[862 


be  introduced,  it  is  material  for  me  to  answer 
it.  I  am  glad  to  hear  your  lordship  say  it  is 
no  arraignment  of  their  proceedings. 

Lord  Chief  Justice  ITeityoii.  I  wish  to 
be  understood  it  is  no  arraignment  of  them 
here ;  but  whether  it  may  be  raised  up  into 
another  offence,  is  another  consideration.* 

Mr.  Erskine,  It  is  stated  upon  the  fbce  of 
this  affidavit,  that  the  Constitutional  Society 
protect  the  dean  of  St.  Asaph,  and  that  they 
are  partners  in  the  expence.  My  lords,  if 
that  oe  a  crime,  the  laws  of  this  country  are 
not  extinguished ;  they  are  amenable  to  courts 
of  iustice:  if  it  be  barratry,  it  may  be  pu- 
nisned ;  but,  as  your  lordship  truly  observes^ 
it  is  certainly  no  crime  here.  And  I  am  8(> 
far  from  thinking  it, a  crime  here  or  any 
where,  that  I  am  proud  to  inform  your  loro- 
ships,  and  all  who  hear  me  speak,  that  that 
boay  of  men  have  thought  me  woithy  of  de- 
fending this  cause ;  I  accepted  it  as  a  most 
willing  duty,  and  I  am  sure  I  have  no  other 
motion  to  make  to  your  lordships  here,  thaa 
that  I  may  have  an  opportunity  of  fiiUiUiiir 
it  in  the  fiice  of  the  country.  The  deaii^ 
St.  Asaph  has  other  counsel  here,  but  this 
Constitutional  Society,  as  it  is  called,  know- 
ing that  a  great  part  of  the  bar  here  had  becni 
retained,  and  feeling  it  to  be  a  public  causey 
in  which  they  themselves,  and  the  public  at 
large,  were  interested,  requested  me  to  come 
down  in  support  of  it. 

Lord  Chief  Justice  Kenyan.  Upon  that  I 
wish  to  say  a  word.  If  you  come  down  not 
as  counsel  for  the  dean  of  St.  Asaph,  but  for 
the  Constitutional  Society,  I  shall  not  hean 
you, 

Mr.  Erskine.  Your  lordship  is  too  quick. 
I  have  not  said  that  I  am  not  counsel  for  the 
dean'of  St.  Asaph. 

Lord  Chief  Justice  Kenyan.  1  should  little 
conform  in  such  case  to  what  the  public  ex-« 
pect  firom  me;  I  willnotsuffer  any  imperti- 
nent interposition  in  causes,  in  those  who  are 
no  parties  to  the  cause.  I  don't  mean  that  of 
you,  I  am  sure. 

Mr.  Erskine.  If  your  lordship  would  hea^ 
ine  out  first,  agreeably  to  the  common  prac- 
tice of  courts,  perhaps  we  should  better  un- 
derstand one  another.  I  shall  certainly  pro- 
fess myself  to  your  lordship  and  the  junr,  as 
counsel  for  the  dean  of  St.  Asaph,  and  the 
only  reason  why  I  mentioned  the  circum* 
stance  relating  to  these  gentlemen,  was  to 
shew  your  lorashlp  that  we  are  fu)t  ashamed 
of  any  protection  that  we  have  received  from 
them.  Now  with  respect  to  this  paper  that 
the  Constitutional  Society  have  published; 
first  let  us  see  whether  it  contains  any  matter 

*  In  tbe  cue  of  Mr.  JoUiffe,  who,  a  few  dayi  pra« 
rioaslj  to  tlw  tiaae  tppointod  for  the  trial  of  an  infor- 
mation against  him,  had  at  the  pUu)e  of  trial  given 
away  printed  papen  calcnlated  to  prejndioe  in  his 
iavoar  persons  who  might  be  upon  the  jary,  the  trial 
was  pot  off,  and  moreover  B.  R.  for  the  giving  away 
of  the  pftpen  granted  another  iafftnmtitB  tt^iail 


SCSJ  28  GEOKG£  UL     Proceeding*  figtmut  He  Betm  of  St.  AsajA,     [S6i 


so  refembie  to  the  cause  in  question,  so 
|dDated  to  the  matters  of  which  the  defendant 
18  accused,  as  that  it  ma^  he  supoosed,  'in 
coming  into  the 'hands  of  those  wno  are  to 
try  it,  to  be  |iroduotave  of  undue  influence,  or 
to  prevent  the  rightad  ministration  of  justice. 
And  titere  are  a  few  positions  that  I  ndH'pvt 
lo  your  lonkhip: 

First,  lot  me  suppose  a  man  to  he  indicted 
6f  any  crime  whatsoever,  but  paiticulaity  a 
ierime  of  this  sort,  which  is  chaig^  to  be  a 
aeditioHs  libel,  for  your  lordships  wiU  not  for- 
pA  the  cause  that  we  are  trying ;  the  indict- 
ment charges,  that  the  dean  of  St  Asaph  pub- 
Uahed  this  paper,  whidi  it  terms  a  libel,  with 
WB.  intent  to  excite  and  diAise  amongst  the 
i«ri>jects  of  this  realm  discontents  and  suspi- 
cions of  the  king ;  disaffection  and  disloyally 
to  his  person;  to  draw  Xbe  aovemmentof 
the  kingdom  mto  scandal,  in&my,  and  dis- 
grace, and  to  excite  his  ras^esty's  subjects  to 
attempt  by  violence  and  force  of  anns  to  sub- 
vert the  constitution  of  this  ooimtry.  The^ 
who  saw  that  charge,  and  who  read  this 
boc^,  on  which  it  is  founded,  saw  no  con- 
aezicm  between  them.  The^  conceived  them 
to  be  general  speculative  opinions  upon  the 
theory  of  our  nappy  government ;  they  con- 
oeived  them  to  be  points,  in  the  propagation 
and  in  the  maintenance  of  wluch  they  were 
ail  equally  interest^,^  and  which  they  had  a 
right  to  support  as  a  common  interest ;  for 
alt^bou^  a  man  is  not  to  protect  an  individual 
in  doing  a  wrong  to  another^  surely  he  has  a 
^ght  to  maintam  the  doctrines  published  by 
ttnothtf  ,  though  they  may  be  thought  a  crime 
by  others,  or  even  by  the  government.  Per- 
haps the  Constitutional  £>ciety  have  propa^ 
gated  this  paper  which  has  been  read ;  but  is 
were  a  reference  in  it,  is  there  an  allusion 
In  it,  to  the  particular  crime  of  which  Uie  dean 
of  St.  Asaph  has  been  diarged  to  be  gialty? 
Does  it  state  the  nature  of  the  publication  ? 
Does  it  enter  into  a  defence  <n  it  ?  Does  it 
teaifli  the  accusation  ?  Does  it  enlighten  the 
min£  of  the  iury  with  respect  to  the  partiou* 
lar  questicNi  tnat  they  are  to  try?  The  case  of 
the  King  venut  I^lartha  Gray,  which  Mr. 
Bower  ms  alluded  to,  was  for  a  nuisance. 
The  papers  in  distribution  pending  that  trial, 
urerenot  propagating  among  the  jury  then* 
ri^t  to  deteraiine  the  cause  without  the  in- 
tevposition  of  the  judge ;  they  did  tiot  enter  into 
the  general  theory  of  the  administration  of 
JuMtice ;  Uttey  did  not  chtilk  out  the  particular 
Snty  of  the  judge,  and  the  province  of  the 
Jwy;  no»  if  my  memoTy  serves  me  right, 
these  papers  wiere  di6trH)Uled  pointedigr  and 
with  a  wect  reference  to  the  cause  that  was 
to  be  triedy  and  were  not  mere  general  ob- 
servations upon  the  constitution,  or  upon  the 
ateiiiistration  of  justice.  Now  with  respect 
to  this  paper,  sworn  to  have  been  distributed, 
I  luive  not  rea4  it,  I  have  only  listened  to  it 
lAMe  it  was  re^,  and  I  confess,  that  though 
'lAt^entivelyy  there  was  nothing  that 
my  ear  ia  it  tbtf  st^^f^  n^ 


there  was  nothing  that  my  short  eaperieiiae 
tells  me  to  be  wvone ;  there  was  nothing  in 
it  that!  think  illegal:  they  seemed  to  be  ex- 
tracts from  different  histonans,  and  from  di^ 
fecent  trials,  marking  out  the  particular  na- 
ture of  l&els,  mentioning  paiticuiar  indict- 
pients  for  Ufoels,  and  the  province  of  the 
judge,  and  the  province  of  tne  jury  in  those 
cases;  that  alooe  seemed  to  be  theaatuve of 
thb  pamphlet ;  and  I  hold  it  to  be  impossible 
ever  to  try  an]^  cause  of  this  kind,  if  toe  pii^ 
hcation  of  ttos  paper  be  a  suffident  reason 
with  your  lordships  to  postpone  the  present 
trial;  because  it  is  oalv  the  propagation ol 
particular  principies  and  doctnnes,  referable 
to  the  eeneral  constitutton  of  the  oountry,  and 
apphcable  to  the  general  rules  of  the  admi- 
nistration of  justice,  whieh  I  tmst  wiU  be  ever 
in  cnxxiktion,  and  not  pointed,  directiy  or  in- 
directly at  the  particular  ^estion  which  is 
now  to  be  trieil.  Will  your  lordships  sa^ 
thaty  if  a  juryman  were  to  read  this,  he  could 
possibly  gather  from  it  more  than  what  he . 
ought  to  have  known  before,  namely,  that  the 
province  of  a  jury  in  trying  the  dean  of  St. 
Asaph  for  a  seditious  Ubielf  was  to  determine 
whether  he  had  published  it  with  those  sedi- 
tious intentions  which  are  mentioned  in  the 
indictmeot;  whether  he  was  a  man  disa^ 
fected  to  the  ^vemment ;  whether  the  lan- 
guage of  the  dialogue,  which  is  cailed  a  libe!, 
was  pointed  to  the  particular  times,  or  whe- 
ther they  were  a&Ay  general  speculative  pro- 
positions; and  if  they  were,  whether  toey 
were  corysooant  to,,  and  consistent  with,  the 
laws  of  this  country.  Is  there  euy  jud^  now 
in  Engbnd  will  say,  that  when  a  jury  are 
sw(Mm  to  tnr  a  cause  upon  the  general  issue, 
that  the  judgment  of  the  law  as'  well  as  the 
&i  does  not  rest  with  them  ]  if  it  be  crimi- 
nal to  assert  the  contrary,  this  paper  might 
be  a  libel;  those  people  who  published  it 
might  be  libellers ;  but  how  can  it  affect  the 
trial  of  thb  cause,  and  how  can  the  defendant 
be  deprived  from  being  tried  <by  that  junr 
which  are  struck  hv  an  order  from  ^our  lonC 
ship,  and  impanneUed  to  try  k,  without  Its 
either  being  broufdit  home  to  him,  or  even  to 
one  of  thejiuorsr  The  gentlemen,  with  that 
politeness  which  is  natuml  to  them,  and 
which  I  am  persuaded  they  will  never  forsake 
upon  any  occasion,  say,  they  mean  no  per« 
sonal  reproach  to  the  jur^,  but  th^  must 
pardon  me  for  saying,  tmit  it  strikes  me  to  be 
matter  of  high  reproach,  however  unintended 
it  may  be;  if  4hejmy,  knowing  themselvea 
impanneUed  to  try  the  cause,  have  refused  te 
see  any  thins  that  has  any  reference  to  it; 
and  who  wiU  dare  to  charge  them  with  a 
continiy"  conduct?  How  can  their  minds  poa» 
sibly  be  affected  by  it  ?  And  will  your  lord- 
ships say,  that  these  tiuelve  gentlemen,  who 
at'this  |;reat  session  are  impanneUed,  as  a 
special  jury,  to  try  the  indictment,  shall  not 
try  it,  because  certain  people  in  London-  hawe 
thought  fit  to  publish  extracts  from  certain 
bfKik^  etatiag  m  gjMiandiri{^  of  juiT^^ 


S65] 


Jw  a  ieditunn  Libels 


f  aad  the  general  law aDdconstitutioa  of  tbi^ 

country? 

I  hope  four  lordsliips  will  not  forget,  that 
the  vei^  object  of  Vis  prosecution  is^  to  de. 
termine,  whether  the  sentiments  contained 
in  this  dkdogue,  are  consonant  to  the  laws, 
the  constitution  and  government  of  the  coun- 
try, or  point^  to  stir  up  sedition  and  over- 
turn them.  It  is  impossible  for  a  public  pro- 
secution to  come  to  a  decision  in  this  illumi- 
nated, free  and  active  natiori,  without  a  vast 
number  of  men  interesting  themselves  in  the 
determination  of  it,  consioering  it  as  a  general 
question,  referable  to  ail  their  rights;  and 
bow  is  it  possible  for  your  lordships  to  say, 
that  this  is  not  the  time,  and  that  any  other 
time  will  ever  arise  ?  for  when  a  motion  is 
made  to  put  off  a  trial,  your  lordships  know 
that  the  tune  is  not  to  be  indefinite.  If  it  be 
moved  on  account  of  the  absence  of  a  mate- 
rial witness,  the  time  of  that  witness's  expects 
ed  return  must  be  stated.  Upon  this  princi* 
pie,  when  will  the  dean  be  tried?  never,  if  he 
is  not  to  be  tried  now.  And  the  purpose  of 
these  gentlemen,  is,  that  he  shall  never  be 
tried,  as  they  are  afraid  of  the  triumph  that 
an  honest  man*  must  derive  from  the  integrity 
and  justice  of  the  Jury. 

[Here  some  of  the  audience  clapped,  and 
the  court  fined  a  gentleman  20/.]* 

I  was  saying,  my  lords,  that  it  is  mv  opi- 
nion, the  prosecutor  of  this  indictment  dread- 
ed the  event  of  it,  because  most  unquestion- 
ably your  lordships  must  see,  that  if  that 
which  has  been  done  amounts  to  a  crime,  for 
which  the  authors  of  it  are  punishable  by  the 
law,  the^  may  be  punished;  but  the  evil,  if  it 
be  an  evil^  has  gone  forth ;  the  evil  can  have 
no  limitation ;  it  will  be  equally  an  objection 
to  the  trial  of  the  cause  to-morrow  as  to-day, 
and  next  year  as  this ;  for  I  confess,  I  have 
that  opimon  of  the  Constitutional  Society,  if 
what  the  prosecutor  says  in  his  affidavit  be 
true,  that  it  does  come  m>m  them,  that  there  ' 
18  no  power  in  this  country,  that  will  either 
be  disposed  to  punish  or  correct  them,  for  the 
eeneral  propagation  of  any  doctrines  which 
lead  only  to  the  illumination  of  the  people,  in 
the  rights  of  administering  justice.    With  re- 
spect to  the  dean  of  St  A^ph,  the  gentlemen 
nave  said  nothing  in  their  affidavit,  except 
that  the  dean  b  protected  by  this  society. 
The  dean  of  St.  Asaph  is  undoubtedly  protect- 
ed by  this  society :  out  the  dean  of  St  Asaph 
carries  on  his  defence  at  his  own  expence : 
the  dean  of  St.  Asaph  has  his  own  counsel 
Jiere;   I  am  the  dean  of  St.  Asaph's  counsel, 
aa  well  as  the  other  gentlemen;  and  the  Con- 
stitutional Society,  however  tliey  may  be  in- 
terested in  this  general  Question,  and  how- 
ever they  may  be  ^ad  to  nave  those  persons 
employed  in  it,  who  meet  with  their  approba- 
tion, and  to  reward  them  by  professional  com- 
pensations ;   yet,  my  lords,  the  dean  of  St. 
Asaph  stands  here  for  himself.    Now,  Mr. 

*  See  Stoae^i  Cue,  a.  p.  1796. 
VOL.  XXI. 


A.  D.  1783. 


rsoG 


Bower  is  pleased  to  say,  that  it  was  necessary 
to  bring  it  home  to  the  party  to  be  tried.     He 
stated  that  in  the  case  of  the  nuisance,  it  was 
brought  home  to  the  defendant's  brother; 
that  was  such  an  agency  as  was  not  easy  to 
be  disputed ;  for  when  you  see  the  brotlier  of 
a  defendant  publicly  distributing  pai)ers,  at 
the  time  of  an  assize,  you  may  naturally  con- 
ceive, that  the  defendant,  in  whose  favour 
they  arc  distributed,  is  privy  to  it ;   but  I  am 
prepared  to  offer  your  lordships  an  affidavit 
on  the  part  of  the  dean  of  St.  Asaph,  that  he 
is  not  privy  to  it ;   that  he  is  not  consenting 
to  it;    that  he  is  extremely  sorry  that  any 
thing  of  any  sort,  whether  it  be  good,  or 
whether  it  be  evil,  should  be  published  con- 
cerning him.  The  dean  of  St.  Asaph  disclaims 
all  connection  with  thte  paper;  and  if  publio 
spirited  men  will  pubUsh  resolutions  in  the 
newspapers  concerning  him  (as  they  have  al- 
ways considered  him  to  be  an  object  of  unjust 
malice  and  revenge,  and  not  the  object  of 
censure  from  a  court  of  iusticc)  how  can  the 
dean  of  St  Asaph  help  that  ?    If  your  lord- 
ships, though  your  time  is  better  employed, 
would  look  into  the  newspapers,  you  would 
see  those  resolutions  published  respecting  it ; 
you  must  have  seen  it  on  various  other  occa- 
sions.   Your  experience  must  tell  you,  that  it 
has  been  the  same  in  every  great  cause  that 
has  been  tried  in  this  country.    Was  it  not 
so  at  the  time  of  Mr.  Wilkes's  trial,*  and  the 
reversal  of  his  outlawry  ?    Was  it  not  so  at 
the  time  Mr.  Almonf  was   prosecuted   for 
publishing  the  letters  of  Junius?   Can  it  ever 
be  otherwise  when  men  are  prosecuted  in  a 
free  country,. for  that   in  which  the  people 
conceive  they  have  an  interest  ?   If  the  dean 
of  St.  Asapji  be  a  person  justly  accused  of  se- 
dition, these  general  doctrines  will  be  of  no 
avail  to    him.    There    is   nothing    in    tha 
pamphlet,  wliich  can  then  defend  mm.    No- 
thing that  has  been  read  or  annexed  to  the 
affidavit  can  be  any  sort  of  justification  to  the 
dean,  provided  the  jury  shall  find  that  crimi- 
nal intention,  which  I  know  is  not  to  be  found 
in  it ;  if  your  lordship,  taking  this  publication 
into  your  hand,  shall  see  tiiat  it  does  not  contain 
the  name  of  the  dean  ot  St  Asaph,  that  it  does 
not  allude  directly  or  indirectly  to  the  publi- 
cation of  any  particular  paper,  that  it  docs  not 
allude  directly  or  indirectly  to  the  trial  of  any 
cause,  that  it  does  not  state  to  the  jury,  or  to 
the  world,  that  there  is  even  any  person  in- 
dicted for  a  misdemeanor  before  your  lord- 
ships, that  it  has  not  the  most  remote  allu- 
sion or  reference  to  the  matter  in  question 
before  you,  wiU  you  put  off  the  trial  of  this 
cause  upon  an  affidavit  which  states  nothing 
more  than  the  mere  publication  of  the  paper 
in  question  ?  for  there  is  nothing  extrinsic  in 
the  affidavit,  the  paper  is  tacked  to  it,  and  is 
the  burthen  and  sense  of  it ;   for  the  affidavit 
eoes  no  farther  thanto  state,  this  has  been  en- 
deavoured   to  be   published  in  Wrexham; 

•  See  Vf  L 19,  p.  1075.        t  Vol.  10,  p.  803. 
3  K. 


A 


serj 


2S GEORGE  III*     PrceeM^ ttglm^ UkDtmqfSi. AMOfh^    |M 


and  I  am  pemiaded  the  ymlrmwi  anmot  I 
produce  to  jour  lordshm  aov  one  case  in  tbe 
taw  of  EfieUnd  (and  I  wiH  pve  fbem  Ifae 
tan«e  of  au  precedents  tfiey  can  find  in  die 
Ik>c£s)  wbere  a  trial  has  been  pot  oiT  siniplj 
and  merely  because  upon  a  ^ibBc  trial  d^ 
tween  the  king  and  the  subject^  lelathpe  to  a 
wdHtoos  libel,  a  general  disouisition  contain- 
ioe  eitracts  of  ^  different  Dooks  upon  that 
M^ect  had  been  published  by  any  man  or 
body  of  men  in  the  kingdom,  and  ctrculaCed 
(though  that  is  not  9Wom)  even  within  reach 
of  the  my.  It  mi^ht  be  a  challenge  to  any 
particnbr  juror  that  nad  read  it. 
'  L.  C.  J.  Kenyan.  Do  you  find  tiiat  among 
the  heads  of  challei^es } 

Mr.  Erthau.  No,  my  lord,  I  do  not;  but 
let  ihem  shew  me  any  one  port,  in  any  of 
those  eight  pa^,  that  relates  directly  or  in- 
directly to  this  subject — I  wiH  detam  your 
lordships  no  longer  upon  this  head,  conceiv- 
iug  it  to  be  impossibfe  you  should  entertain 
an  opinion,  that  because  the  Constitutional 
Society  have  printed  this  paper,  it  is  sufficient 
to  cany  the  eflect  of  tfie  motion,  aiVer  the  affi- 
davit which  I  shall  presently  read,  in  which 
the  dean  declares  positively  and  solemnly, 
that  he  has  not  published  it,  and  that  he  has 
not  propagated  or  dispersed  it. 

L.  C.  J.  Kcnyon.  It  is  not  imputed  to  him, 
I  am  sore  I  do  not  impute  it  to  him. 

The  Dean  cf(  St.  Ataj^h.  It  is  impossible ; 
it  is  not  conaiftent  with  my  ideas  of  pro- 
priety. 

L.  C.  J.  Kenyan,  I  believe  you  are  totally 
m^Mibleoftt 

Mr.  ErMkine,    Your  lordflhip  has  been  so 

good  as  to  save  me  the  trouMe  of  defending 

my  client,  so  far  as  relates  to  himself;  and  as 

joa  have  stated  that,  from  his  lib^ality  of 

sentiment,  you  believe  him  incapable  of  doing 

this,  win  yoor  lordiftupB  say,  that  he  is  capable 

of  sedition  agunst  the  government,  and  not  fit 

to  be  brought  to  trial  Mfore  tffe  gentlemen  of 

the  neighbourhood  wbere  he  lives  f    Is  there 

any  thmg  in  this  which  can,  by  any  poasifa^i- 

ty,  shew  that  it  is  the  work  of  the  dean  of  St 

Asaph  ?    Upon  the  contrary  it  is  ^hewn  that 

it  was  published  by  the  Oaislimiional  So- 

dety,  aivd  not  by  him,and.  as  your  lordship  ac- 

knowl^Ses,  even  to  himself,  withont  his  pri- 

Tiljv.    Then  whatis  there  to  prevent  his  tnal? 

Wnyam  Inot,intihenameof  juSlioe,tode» 

mand,  that  the  jury  now  impannelled  may 

proceed  opon  their  duty,  when  there  is  no* 

thing  hi  these  pages  that  can  at  all  afieci,  I7 

any  posaihili^,  the  minds  oftbe  juiy  with  an 

improi>er  bias  on  the  6ufa|ei^?   fb^  in  my 

mind,  it  contains  no  odier  tfettiines  taap  such 

as  any  judge  in  Enghmd  woidd  be  verr  much 

ashamed  to  deny,  wnenprintedand  pnbliahed 

in  the  worid,  and  to  ofier  as  a  reason  to  the 

public  for  putting  off  this  trial. 

From  a  long  acouaintance  whh  your  lord- 
ship, which  bs  alwtm  afforded  me  great 
pleasure  and  comfort,  I  rest  irith  the  neatest 
coofideooe,  your  lofdship  wii  detotnaie  ao 


eotding  to  wnal  ym  fcfe^  to  ihb  JmI^  and  ta5 
manknows  better  what  justice  tt:  bowewei 
yoB  nay  fbiidc  ttie  SMfcocstaD  Apreper,  01 
my  wtflb  the  CoiisUUttwmal  Sbtletf  had  not 
piAlisbed  it;  tliBHrft  you  ^Btty  think  w{& 
BB^  that  afl  these  ttngsliMhetterhav^  been 
let  mene,  and  vie  adminiMtratiun  of  Justtte 
kftto  fts  oiAkaly  course;  tbea^  yoa  may 
tfunk  it  atmoimts-  to  it  itn  wf  nweanoi,  in 
bemg  pwbhsned  at  this  tmi^  and  may  wish 
to  reprobate  it  m  yoor  cliai^  to  tne^vy,  aod 
may  apeak,  not  ou^  to  them,  but  to  aBimder 
your  judicial  admmisiMAMHi,  m  the  same  tan- 
guage^  yet,  I  persuade  mvsd(  that  sittnig  in 
justice  on  this  pailindar  trial,  you  will  moak 
that  neMier  the  rigto  of  the  trown,  nor  the 
peace  of  the  commnm^,  nor  the  administra- 
tion of  rig^  can  be  at  aH  affiftCad  by  this 
publication. 

MV.  C&fbett.    Mr  loros,  vns  misuspectea 
abd  most  extraorfinanr  application,  as  it  is 
sUled  by  my  learned  fhend,  having  received 
the  oompletest  and  fidlest  answer,  it  must 
seem  an  indiscretion,  1  know  it  seems  a  pro- 
sumption,  in  me  to  rise  to  address  your  loid- 
diips ;  but  ihere  is  one  short,  one  naturaly 
one  nnavoidsftde,  observataon  upon  this  ijues- 
tion,  which  struck  my  mind  tne  instant  my 
learned  firiend,  Mr.  L£vcester.  opened  his  u^- 
pUcation.    It  is  an  observmtioil  which  I  f3t 
an  inclination  to  suppress;   if  my  learned 
fnend  BIr.  Manley,  mtd  not,  by  an  admission 
of  his,  called  me  up,  I  sftiottld  have  suppress 
ed  it    The  observation  is  &is :  the  present 
application  made  by  tiie  counsel  for  tot  pro- 
secution, is  the  most  scandalous,  the  most 
gross  attack  upon  "die  characters  of  the  gen- 
aemen  of  this  country,  that  over  anyaniMiy- 
moiis^  any  paltiy  prosecutor  ever  instructed 
Ins  counsel  to  make;  ^lere  never  was  a  pro- 
secutdr  iriio  before  dared  to  nndce  it!    My 
fords,  it  is  this :  that  the  pcd)licati0n-of  these 
MunpMets  have  had  sudh  a  "ntjcessary  utaduo 
mUneiice  upon  the  minds  Xn  foe  genvemen  of 
the  ymy,  mat  they  eome  here  unfit  to  be 
Drusted,08  they  are  with  this  doi^^faty  cause. 
If  uiai  proportion,  by  yonit  oisnussing  th^ 
trial  of  flie  cause  on  this  ds^y,  receives  the 
sanciioiki  of  your  ford^hipsrauthori^,  I  will 
teutufite  to  pronounce,  tbuoffi  I  pfonobnce  it 
with  sorrow,  imd  ccttiuole  wiui  the  ^lenUo- 
men,  wlmst  I  do  It,  ttisA  they  must  go  To 
meir  nones  wim  xnaTnorrtu  sonna  on  cneir 
character,  that  ifaev  have  bdea  vtA&  'day  pro- 
nounced, eSlhiSr  to  he  men  whose  vndenftand^ 
ings  are  not  suffidenftlv  strong  to  suppoft  the 
faoneat  <fictates  of  their  harts,  or  whose 
heaits  are  not  aufficiently  upright  to  obey  the 
(fictales  (tf  tb^teason. 

L.C.  J.  Kenyan,  In  aH  dues,  where  one 
has  ^  lourt  doubtm  the  worid,  K  iafit  la 
aetaii  the  mfbiiaation  one  can  upon'me  Ar>^ 
ject ;  hut  hi  a  question,  where  there  is  no 
room  fbr  me  to  doubt,  1  wish,  BSr.  Tieyeeaief^ 
to  save  ydu  the  trouble  of  making  a  rfeply. 

X  am  vtMxdorty'forirbiitlttfiaBi  fiMteapK 


mi  M^9^mmi 

a  scandalous  attack  i)p(m  the  jury,  ^fia  that 
vrheq  they  so  from  hence,  ^ey  ojust  gQ  dia- 
paced  to  t&v  country,  as  men  not  ^t  to  try- 
this  doMghty  causa/'  Now,  upon  the  geatle- 
^len  of  th^  ju^  it  b  no  attack  upon  earth  ; 
the  mg^e  question  i^  whether  m«ins  have 
or  not  Seen  used,  which  by  ptossibility  nu^ 
have  some  effect  upon  meu'a  minds  m  the 
decision  of  this  cause  ? 

A  vast  deal  has  been  said  upon  this  otcca- 
aion,  very  eloquently  and  very  ^bly  said  i  \fu\ 
certainly  not  veiy  much  to  the  purpose  of  the 
present  motion ;  and  I  have  that  intimate  nc- 
quaintance  with  the  learned  gentle^vui's 
judgment,  as  well  ^  his  other  great  abUities^ 
as  to  coUecl,  with  pietty  great  certainty,  that 
li^great  deal  was  not  meaut  to  be  addressed 
to  me,  but  to  some  other  part  of  the  au- 
dience. 

The  singly  question  ^ow  is,  not  whether 
the  dean  pf  St.  Asaph  b  guilty  or  not  guilty, 
whether  he  b  to  be  acquitted  or  convicted, 
but  whether  there  mav  not  be  another  season 
found  out,  in  which  this  came  may  nobahly 
he  decided  with  n^pre  impartiality,  when  the 
minds  of  men  mav  not  be  prguaiced  by  any 
such  means  as  those  which  are  the  subject 
matter  of  this  motion  ? 

We  have  nothing  to  do  with  the  Question, 
who  wrote  thb  pamphlet,  or  who  aid  not ; 
however,  it  seems  now  to  be  avowed,  that  sir 
lyiiliam  Jones,  a  person  who  did  not  choose  to 
send  it  forth  into  the  world  with  his  name  to 
it,  b  the  author  of  it  It  is  very  true,  as  has 
been  stated  by  Mr.  Erskine,  that  he  b  gone 
ip  a  jutUci^l  capacity  into  a  cguntry,  wnere 
it  would  be  very  unwise  to  send  a  man  in 
that  character  who  has  any  thing  seditious 
2dK>ut  him.  Whether  it  will  be  proper  to  re- 
view that  appointment  or  not,  is  not  for  me 
to  say ;  it  is  certainly  a  thing  fit  to  be  consi- 
dered, and  8oberl)raAd  seriously  considered, 
%  tluMe  to  whom  it  belongs  to  consider  it. 

It  band  must  be  admitted,  that  publica- 
^^s  which  are  calculated  with  a  view  to 
prejudice  the  minds  of  men,  who  ouj^t  to 
tpme  to  compose  a  ium  without  any  pre-cox^ 
ceived  opinions  to  decicfe  upon  the  sul^'ect— I 
sa^  it  must  be  admitted,  that  any  miblfcatioxi^ 
pr  tha^  kind,  whether  made  by  me  p^ty  in- 
terested in  the  question,  or  by  strangers,  b 
sufficient  reason  tp  put  .off  ti)e  trial  of  the 
cause,  in  order  that  the  minds  of  those  wb(> 
are  to  decide,  may  return  to  f.  proper  tone, 
and  that  they  may  not  b^  yut  mto  a  situatioy^ 
which  no  man  sitting  in  jud|tnei|t  ought  to 
be  in,  namely,  having  formd  a  prior  opi- 
nion uppa  th^  point ;  Tor  that  itnyman  wpuM 
be  extremely  disgraced^  who  should  put  him- 
aelf  into  that  boit,  havmg  made  up  I^s  nund 
ttpon  that  subject  before  he  heard  it  discuss^ 
eo ;  nai^  turn  doctw  rare  tnttruchu  b  the  lan- 
guage a  juryman  ought  to  hold,  he  ought  tio 
nave  no  wishes  upon  the  suUect. 

But  it  is  said  that  this  publication  has  no 
view  tp  )h(p  present  cau9«;  ^nd  tt^^  r^aion 


A.  p.  1785.  [870 

mw  i%  b^cyi^e  the  prosecution  of  the  dcaa 
m  St.  Asijph  is  not  at  all  mentioned  in  it. 
N^V  that  Id  e^ilv  said ;  but  is  these  one  man 
livmg  Vho  hem  that  asserted  in  aigumenl 
that  would  subscribe  to  it?  I  am  sure  th« 
learned  gentieman  wTio  introduced  it  into  ar- 
gument, has  a  mind  much  too  enlightened  to* 
have  been  imposed  upon  by  that^  if  it  had 
fallen  from  another.  What!  has  this  no- 
rthing to  do  with  the^cause,  which  ispublbhel 
in  tne  place  where  the  cause  is  to  be  tried:— 
which  is  Sworn  to  be  circubtted  since  the  jury 
were  struck— duringthc  time  of  the  assize~-> 
in  the  assize  town  f  l*he  persons  who  circu- 
late it,  if  they  were  called  upon  and  would 
avow  Jhe  truth,  would  undoubtedly  avow,  thai 

$fy  Gtrculatedf  it  for  some  purpose.  Papers  of 
is  kind  ar^  not  circutatea  to  answer  no  pur* 
pose  whatever:  it  comes  from  a  society  who 
have  interf^rea  in  thb  business;  circulated 
during  the  session,  when  thb  cause  was  in 
some  degree  agitatine  men^s  minds,  and  circu* 
lated  in  the  j^ace  where  the  cause  was  to  ba 
tried;  in  mV  apprehension  it  would  be  a 
dBsgrace  to  those  who  are  to  administer  jus* 
tice,  if  they  were  to  permit  their  minds  to 
balance  upon  the  present  occasion  •  it  b  na 
more  nor  less  than  thb;  ought  justice  to  be 
fairly  administered,  or  are  we  to  suffer  the 
souirces  from  whicn  justice  b  to  flow  to  be 
polluted,  and  Uien  to'  go  ai^d  expect  to  draw 
justice  at  that  source  ?  It  is  a  question  upon 
which  no  man's  mind  can  fairly  balance, 

I  remember  the  case  of  the  Iting  zier$u$ 
Martha  Gray,  which  had  peen  referred  tp^ 
extremely  well ;  and  I  remember  also,  that 
upon  that  occasion,  the  gentieinan  who  was 
of  counsel  for  the  prosecution,  stood  in  the 
situation  in  which  the  learned  geutlenian  ^ 
the  bar  now  in  a  great  measure  i^d^,  vu.  at 
the  head  of  the  nome  circuit;  the  person  I 
allude  to  was,  Mr.  Knowler.  then  recorder  of 
Caqterbury :  I  am  sure  that  Mr.  Erskina 
meant,  in  disduurgiag  hb  duty  to  his  client,. 
to  act,  and  will  alwavs  act,  vHth  as  much 
propriety  as  Mr.  Rnowl^r,  or  any  body  else  f 
however  upon  that  occasion,  Mr.  Knowlec 
took  a  different  line  of  conduct ;  as  soon  as 
he  was  tolfl  that  there  was  a  puhlicatioi^ 
which  might  pr^udice  the  minds  of  men,  and 
affect  the  cause,  he,  to  the  best  of  my  re- 
membrance, desired  m^t  the  cause  might  no\ 
be  tried  ;**  and  I  remember  lord  Msuisfield, 
in  stating  tixat  transaction  in  court,  saicL 
that  upon  that  occasion  Mr.  Knowler  had 
consulted  hb  own  honour,  and  behaved 
as  became  a  good  citizen.  I  am  sure  I 
do  not  hint  ^  or  impute  ^  contrary  conduct 
to  Mr.  &skine;  he  thinks  that  the  present 
publication  does  not  tend  to  pervert  justice. 
^^  .■■''■  II  ■'■  '        .    ■     ■  *        ""^"^ 

*  f*  IVpen  iMviag  ben  distoibftod  bj  ti»  praw- 
oKtor  to  iiiftawca  tM  dMisito  «f  S  d^V^^  quegtma* 
%  jfi^hi  of  wi^f  eldiped  IbcfMif^  Kiokinoiid  Park,  Ibf 
progoontor^*  own  oomuel  oofvd  tQ  Jmto  tbt  firiaJt 
postpootd*  wbiob  wm  afOoordiagly  mBlad."  P^ 
^4^y9P^  Ou^O^  f^^  a  R.  4  Tvrni  Rep.  3Q9* 


1571] 


23  GEORGE  III.     Proeeedingi  agaha  the  Dean  of  SL  Ai^^     f  873 


But  it  is  said  that  other  causes  hare  pro- 
ceeded, although  there  have  been  roaoj  pub- 
lications about  them,  and  the  case  of  Bfr. 
WilkesSs  outlawry,  and  the  prosecution  of 
llr.  Almon,  the  bookseller,  for  the  publica- 
tion of  a  libel,  are  adverted  to. 

In  the  first  place,  it  will  be  recollected,  that 
the  cause  of  Mr.  Wilkes  was  one  which  was 
not  Ukely  to  be  affected  bv  publications,  be- 
cause no  jury  had  any  thing  to  do  in  the 
case;  it  was  a  ouestion  of  law,  which 
had  been  agitated  before  the  judges,  and 
which  they  alone  were  to  decide.  As  to  that 
of  Almon,  what  the  cause  and  the  publica- 
tion was,  I  don't  know ;  but  this  J  know, 
that  unless  the  application  was  made,  and 
was  unsuccessful,  it  affords  no  precedent,  and 
has  nothing  to  do  with  the  point.  Courts 
can  only  decide  upon  cases  which  are  brought 
before  them ;  much  mischief  is  done  in  the 
world,  and  the  people  who  transgress  the  law, 
and  do  the  mischief,  are  not  punished  for  it, 
because  they  are  not  brought  to  judgment. 
Courts  discharge  their  duty  when  cailea  upon, 
and  when  a  cause  or  delinquent  is  brought 
before  them,  they  do  that  which  is  right  upon 
tiiecase. 

The  constitution  of 'this  country  has  done 
all  that  human  prudence  can  do,  that  justice 
should  be  adinmistered  by  those  who  have 
no  wishes  upon  the  subject ;  it  is  for  that 
reason  that  various  challenges  are  o;iven  by 
law  to  a  juryman.  A  relation,  in  nowever 
remote  degree,  cannot  sit  upon  a  trial,  and 
yet  the  law  does  not  mean  to  say  that  all  the 
relations  are  villains.  The  challenge  is  not 
deemed  a  scandalous  atta<;k ;  it  is  enough  to 
^y*  general  rules  must  be  laid  down,  adapted 
to  tiie  case  of  evil  men  and  good  men.  If  by 
possibility  evil  may  creep  in,  shut  the  door  as 
close  as  you  can ;  the  law,  I  say,  has  done  as 
much  as  human  wisdom  could  do  to  keep 
the  streams  of  justice  pure  and  entire ;  it  has 
given  challenges  for  various  reasons ;  it  has 
prohibited  persons  interested  from  being  wit- 
nesses; but  human  nature,  in  the  state  of 
corruption  in  which  we  find  it,  always  is 
prompt  to  transgress  all  the  bounds  that 
common  and  orainarjr  rules  can  prescribe, 
and  it  is  to  these  particular  cases,  therefore, 
that  that  which  Mr.  Erskine  called  the  dis- 
cretion of  the  court  is  to  apply. 
^  And  this  case  now  is  applied  to  the  discre- 
tion of  the  court :  the  court  have  this  laid  ,be- 
fi^re  them.  I  have  been  admonished  that  the 
transactions  of  this  day  are  not  done  in  a 
comer,  but  that  I  am  acilne  in  the  face  of 
the  world,  who  will  judge  of  my  conduct:  I 
thank  the  learned  gentleman  for  that  admo- 
nition, though  it  would  not  have  escaped  me. 
I  am  answerable  to  the  government  and  the 
puUicforali  my  judicial  acts,  and  for  this 
day^s  conduct ;  and  I  shall  be  very  prompt* 
and  ready  to  answer  for  it.  The  question  put 
to  me  is, — Is  this  the  fit  season  to  administer 
justice  in  the  cause  ?— It  may  be  the  fit  sea- 
jHin,  in  some  men's  apprehensions,  that  the 


cause  should  be  heard,  but  is  it  the  season  to 
administer  justice?  Am  I  sure  that  this  pa- 
per can  have  no  effSect  upon  any  men's  minos? 
The  jury  I  am  sure  will  not  believe  me  to 
speak  with  any  disrespect  of  them ;  the  re- 
mainder of  the  jury  may  be  composed  of 
other  men  as  honourable  as  those  that  are 
now  in  the  box,  and  I  know  that  there  can 
be  no  men  of  more  honour ;  but  men's  Jodg* 
ments  may  be  imposed  upon  by  their  wishes, 
and  subnut  to  their  passions.  If  there  were 
no  means  of  biassing  men's  minds,  but  if  that 
which  was  perfectly  rieht  was  done  by  all 
men,  we  need  be  umSr  no  apprehensions 
firom  any  illicit  practices ;  but  having  an  idea 
that  this  paper  is  of  a  pernicious  temlency — 
being  of  opinion  that  it  may  affect  some 
men^  minds^bdng  of  opinion  that  nothii^ 
ought  to  be  published,  during  the  pendency 
of  a  cause,  and  distrilNited,  which  can  possi- 
bly affect  men's  minds — ^I  am  therefore  most 
clearly  of  opinion,  that  the  trial  of  this  cause' 
ought  not  to  proceed. 

Mr.  Justice  Barrington : 

I  entirely  agree  with  my  Lord  Chief 
Justice.  The  trial  bv  jury  is  undoubtedly 
the  most  perfect  of  all  trials,  but  it  is  only  s6 
when  juries  come  to  decide  a  cause  without 
any  preiudices  on  one  side  or  the  other.  Now 
it  has  been  proved,  by  the  afl[idavit  read  in 
court,  that  a  pamphlet  has  been  circulated  in 
the  townof  Wrexnam,  during  the  time  of  the 
great  session,  which  relates  to  prosecutions 
for  libels,  and  which  is  addressed  to  juries,  to 
inform  them  what  may  be  their  duty :  I  shall 
not  mis-spend  any  time  in  contradicting 
what  is  there  asserted  ;  I  will  only  say,  that 
'  it  is  •contrary  to  what  seems  tq  have  been  the 
opinion  of  every  judge  since  ^he  time  of  the 
Revolution,  in  the  trial  of  libellers  and  ques- 
tions of  very  considerable  expectation ;  I 
allude  to  the  case  of  the  King  versus  Tut- 
chin,*  which  was  tried  in  the  time  of  king 
William,  by  lord  chief  justice  Holt;  the  case 
of  the  King  versus  Franklin,t  tried  in  the 
reign  of  George  the  second,  by  lord  chief  jus- 
tice Raymond ;  and  lastly,  to  the  case  oi  the 
King  versus  Owen,  which  was  determined  by 
lord  chief  justice  Lee,  who  dves  an  express 
opinion  on  the  point ;  but,  nowever,  I  shall 
not  take  lip  any  farther  time  in  contradicting 
any  thing  that  may  be  asserted  in  this  pamph- 
let, but  as  it  has'  l>een  circulated  in  the  town 
of  Wrexham,  juist  at  the  eve  of  this  cause 
being  brought  on  to  decision,  it  is  impossible 
to  sav  but  It  may  have  had  its  effect  upon  the 
minds  of  the  jury ;  and  if  it  has  been  read  by 
any  one  of  them,  it  has  been  read  ex^rie. 
They  have  heard  no  answer  to  it,  therefore  it 
is  likely  to  make  the  more  impression.  I 
entirely,  therefore,  agree  with  my  Lord  Chief 
Justice,  that  this  is  a  proper  ^und  to  defer 
this  trial  till  another  great  session,  when  per- 
haps the  jury  will  come  with  more  unprtyu-' 


♦  See  voL  14,  p.  1095.        t  Vol.  If,  p.  i»5. 


T> 


«7S> 


r 

Jot  a  SeiStioits  Libel, 


diced  minds.  I  agree  with  Mr.  Erskine,  that 
it  was  very  far  from  being  blameable  to  pub- 
lish this  pamphlet  4n  Loudon ;  what  is  cen- 
surable isy  the  circulating  if  at  Wrexham 
during  the  time  of  the  assizes,  and  after  the 
prosecution  was  at  issue.  Every  man  has  a 
tight  to  publish  what  he  pleases  with  regard 
to  points  of  lawy  provided  ne  does  not  do  it  in 
a  place  where  it  is  likely  to  prejudice  the 
jivry  in  the  trial  of  a  cause ;  and  this  is  what 
i  lay  my  finger  on,  as  the  material  reason  for 
deferring  this  trial  to  another  great  session. 

Mr.  Enkine.  In  the  course  of  what  J  had 
to  say,  I  mentioned  an  affidavit  of  the  dean 
of  St.  Asaph ;  I  beg  it  may  be  read.  I  donH , 
mean  to  do  it  by  way  of  controverting  your 
lordships'  decision,  but  to  shew,  that  the* 
dean  oi  St.  Asaph  was  not  privy  to  the  dis- 
tribution of  this  paper. 

L.  C.  J.  Kenyan,    Read  it. 

The'  Affidavit  of  the  Dean  of  St.  Asaph 

read. 

"  In  the  Court  of  Great  Session  for  the 
Cdtinty  of  Denbigh,  the  Ring,  on  the 
prosecution  of  William  Jones,  gent, 
against  William  Davies  Shipley,  clerk, 
for  a  Misdemeanor. 

'<  William  Davies  Shipley,  the  defendant 
above  named,  maketh  oath  and  says,  that  the 
publication  annexed  to  the  prosecutor's  affi- 
davit, was  not  written  by  him,  or  with  his 
privity  or  consent. 

**  And  this  deponent  farther  says,  that  so 
far  from  beine  privy  or  consenting  to  the 
publication  or  distribution  of  it  in  this  county, 
or  within  reach  of  the  jurors,  that  the  only 
copy  he  ever  saw  of  i^  was  in  the  possession 
of  one  Marsh,  and  that  he  desired  the  said 
Marsh  not  to  distribute  that  or  any  other 
paper,  pending  the  cause ;  and  that  he  does 
not  know  that  any  such  paper  as  is  annexed 
to  the  prosecutor's  affidavit,  has  ever  been 
circulated  in  Wrexham,  or  within  the  county, 
or  amongst  or  within  reach  of  anv  of  the 
jurors,  summoned  upon  the  special  jury,  to 
try  the  traverse  between  the  king  and  this 
deponent,  or  amongst  or  within  reach  of  any 
of  the  common  jurors,  who  might  have  been 
8nne;!ced  as  talesmen  to  the  special  jury  for 
default  of  special  jurors,  or  amongst  the  peo- 
ple at  large,  save  from  the  said  prosecutor's 
Affidavit.  W.  D.  Shiplby.'' 

"  Sworn  in  Court,  this  1st 

of  Sept.  1783.        Kenyon." 

Dean  of  Si,  Asaph,  My  lords,  I  shall  cer- 
tainly bow  down  with  the  utmost  deference 
to  your  lordships'  decision;  I  would  by  no 
means  wish  to  interfere  in  apointof  law  with 
your  lordships;  I  have  no  doubt  of  your  do^ 
in^  complete  justice.  I  only  wish  your  lord- 
ships to  consider  the  nature  of  the  prosecu- 
tion against  me,  the  mode  in  which  it  was 
£rst  commenced,  Che  methods  by  which  it  has 


A.  D.  116$.  [8f4 

been  carried  on  to  this  moment;  I  wish  your 
lordships  to  consider  thatit  is  not  trough  any 
fault,  not  through  any  indiscretion,  of  mine, 
that  the  motion  comes  before  you ;  I  am  per- 
fectiy  innocent  of  any  intention  to  prejudice 
the  jury,  nay  so  far  was  I  from  being  privy  to 
the  publication  of  this  pamphlet,  that  when  a 
bookseller  informed  me,  he  had  some  of  them, 
I  msisted  upon  their  not  being  dispersed, 
upon  his  locking  them  up  till  afler  the  trial. 
I  wish  your  lordships  to  consider  the  great 
expence  I  have  been  put  to,  the  anxiety  of 
mind  I  have  been  under,  the  prejudice  done 
to  my  character,  the  damage  done  to  my  in- 
nocent family ;  if  youi^  loroships  consider  all 
this,  your  lordships  have  certainly  a  power  to 
bring  my  trial  on,  and  I  trust  you  will  exercise 
that  power.  My  lords,  it  may  at  any  other 
period  be  in  the  power  of  the  prosecutor  to 
do  the  same  thinjg  again;  he  may  provide 
another  Mr.  Blandimer,  or  any  bo<w  felse,  to 
come  down,  and  disperse  papers  ol  this  na- 
ture.  All  I  want  is  to  have  my  character 
clear  in  this  county. 

I  need  not  remind  your  lof  dships,  that  this 
prosecution  stands  upon  the  face  6f  it  in  th^ 
name  of  Jones ;  so  it  appears,  for  that  Wi£ 
liam  Jones's  master  chose  to  stand  behind 
the  curtain  till  he  thought  his  great  name 
and  confiections  mi^ht  av^  him.  When  it 
was  tiiought  expedient  to  ^ply  to  govern- 
ment, then  steps  forth  Mr.  Fitzmaurice,  and 
presents  a  memorial  to  the  Treasury-board, 
modestiy  rec[uesting'thein  to  take  the  prose- 
cution off  his  hands,  or,  "in  other  words,  td 
gratify  his  malice  with  the  public  money. 
My  lords^  the  Treasury  saw  the  proposal  with 
a  proper  mdignation ;  theTreasury  rejected  it ; 
the  crown  lawyers  declared,  when  they  gave 
hk  their  opinions,  that  it  was  untenable,  that 
it  was  imadvisable. 

L.  C.  J.  Kenyan,  I  doubt  whether  that 
business  is  exactly  stated. 

Dean  of  St,  Asaph,    The  Solicitor  General 
in  particular  said  it  was  not  tenable ;  and  the 
Attorney  General  said  the  prosecution  was 
^ .  not  advisable.  • 

L.  C.  J.  Kenyan.  If  they  differed  in  opi- 
nion not  much  can  depend  upon  it.  Nobody 
will  say  that  Mr.  Walbce  ever  subscribed  to 
such  an  opinion ;  and  he  is  second  to  no  man 
in  the  profession  in  point  of  ability.  But 
whatever  his  opinion  may  be.  and  whoevei 
laiay  be  in  possession  of  it,  it  should  not  have 
been  alluded  to. 

Dean  of  St,  Asaph,  My  lords,  have  the 
government  prosecuted  ?  have  they  taken  it 
up  ?  will  any  one  dare  to  say  that  government 
are  prosecutors  ?  My  lords,  Mr.  Fitzmaurice, 
having  met  with  this  disappointment,  it  ap* 
speared  in  the  public  papers,  and  was  cir- 
culated, industriously,  by  nis  emissaries,  that 
he  asked,  and  obtained,  an  audience  of  his 
ms^esty.  My  lords^  it  is  hardly  credible  that 
any  man  who     ■ 

L.  C.  J.  Kenyan,  I  should  be  very  sorry  to 
stop  you  X.  this  is  nothing  but  a  motion  to  put 


975J  »  GEOttGE  m. 

^Oietnai^;  IihaU  not  mfe  k  to  be  tlw 
Tehide  of  otosore  up  3A  lemctaUe  cl)3nclen. 
Aft  for  Mr  FitTmaiirice,  if  he  ha$  done  a^y 
tiung  amist,  be  nunr  be  ymughed,  I  am  fuse 
I  don't  wisb  to  sbefter  buo. 

Devi  of  St.  AMfh,  Tbia  ia  to  ahew  tbat 
they  abift  the  proaecutkm  from  one  to  ano- 
ther. 

L.  C.  J.  Kmmj^,  I  rcaUy  am  aoixy  to  atop 
you.  I  owe  yoa  all  the  respect  due  to  the 
very  higb  atation  you  fill ;  but  must  not  sufier 
a  motioo  about  a  cauae  to  be  the  vehicle  of 
censure  (to  use  no  harsher  word)  against  men, 
who  bold  high  characters  in  the  country. 

Dean  of  St.  Amh.  Notwithstanding  thia 
prosecution  ia  unoer  Jonea's  name,  Mr.  Fitar 
ouHirice  declares,  that  if  govenunent  will  not 
take  it  up,  he  baa  nothing  more  to  do  with  it 

Mr.  Ertkinc.  I  mean  to  aoneji  that  letter 
to  the  aAdaviL 

!«.  C.  J.  KenjfQi^.  I  am  sure,  6om  vour 
great  jabilities»  vou  will  not  sufier  yourself  to 
be  withdrawn  nom  your  line  of  du^.  so  far 
as  to  bring  into  this  cause  any  thing  tnatdoea 
jAot  belong  to  it. 

Mr.  Enkinc.  We  will  annex  the  prose^ 
eutor's  letter  to  the  affidavit  of  the  defendant 

L.  C.  J.  Ktrnftm,  If  you,  in  your  SQund 
ludgnenty  think  it  fit  to  annex  it,  annex  it 
by  all  means;  the  affidavit  will  belled  im* 
mediately. 

Dean  o{  Sit.  Asaph.  We  can  prove  this  to 
be  the  prosecutor's  letter. 

Mr.  Iflfcesttr.  I  beg  leave  to  say  you  can<- 
not;  it  ia  not  evidence. 

li.  C.  J.  Kcmim.  Modus  in  r«6ia---ihere 
must  be  an  end  of  thinei. 

Dean  of  Sr.iiapA.  Think,  my  lord,  of  the 
anxiety  I  have  suffered  and  the  expence  I  am 
pinto;  let  me  stand  or  fall  by  the  decision  of 
this  iury ;  let  me,  if  innocent,  once  more 
ataad  uiir  aa  an  bonast,  injured  man ;  if  guilty, 
let  me  oe  dragged  to  a  dungeop. 

L.  C.  J.  £^aft.  When  the  jury  bave 
diven  their  verdict,  if  they  find  you  guuty,  the 
Coiul  will  then  consider  what  judgment  to 
pass. 

Dean  of  A.  Amph.  My  lord,  in  God's 
name  let  ase  have  a  vecdict  one  way  or  the 
other!  don't  let  me  be  kept  loegar  in.stia- 
peacei 

L.  C.  J.  Kcnsftm,  I  deaire  that  after  X  bave 
given  the  judnnent  of  the  Court,  that  iudr 
ment  may  not  oe  talked  about;  I  bave^ven 
it  upon  my  oath,  and  am  anavi^erablf  U>  my 
coantry  for  it.  I  bave  been  before  reminded 
that  tbese  things  are  iMYt  passing  in  a  comer, 
but  in  tfae  open  face  of  the  wmd;  I  hope  I 
|M»ed  not  be  admonished  that  I  am  to  adr 
miniater  justice;  if  I  bave  done  amiss,  let 
the  wrath  and  indigiitation  of  parliainent  be 
brous^eut  against  me:  ktme  be  impeached; 
I  am  ready  to  maet  im  aiorm  whenever  it 
OfMnea,  having  at  least  one  pcoCection— the 
consciousness  that  I  am  right  In  protecting 
Ibe  digpity  of  the  Cour^  I  d(>  the  best  thing 
I  can  dp  m  tito  fuMii:;  for  if  my  iwdwt 


Proeeedhg$afaindih0lknqfSLAMajpkj     [876 


beie  ia  eKtni;|udicia%  amigFied,  tbeadmi- 
nistrationof  jostiee  is  arcaigned  and  aflSrooi- 
ed,  and  that  no  man  living  shall  do  with  im^ 
pimity.  » 

Mr.  Justice  Bamapom.  In  aO  cases  what, 
ever  it  is  usual  for  either  plaintiff  or  defen- 
dant to  speak  by  their  counseL  Too  are  as^ 
sisted  by  a  moat  able  counsel,  and  you  wouki 
not  be  gmilty  of  any  impn^iriety,  if  what  you 
wish  to  offer  to  the  Court  were  first  suggested 
to  him,  for  he  would  then  determine  of  the 
proprie W  of  suggesting  it  to  the  Court 

Mr.  Erskiiu.  Tour  lordships  have  con- 
ducted yoorselvea  with  great  courtesy  and 
mnmrie^  to  rae ;  I  will  now  submit  to  yom 
loraships,  why  I  bave  a  right  to  annex  tfiia 
pufclicatioo  to  the  dean  of  8t  Asaph's  aft- 
oavit. 

L.  C.  J.Kaiyom.  I  will  notaigue  the  paint 
with  you,  if  you  choose  to  annex  it,  annex  it 

Mr.  Enkine.  Thia  is  quite  sufficient,  be- 
cause I  mentioned  it  in  the  course  of  my  ar- 
gument 

L.  C.  J.  Kenyan.  I  would  have  a  court 
copv  of  this  affidavit,  and  the  paper  annexed, 
laia  before  the  king's  Attorney  General. 

Mx.  Enkine.  And  will  not  jrour  Iradship 
have  the  Dean's  answer  to  it  bud  before  the 
Idng's  Attorney  General  i 

L.  C.  J.  Kenyan.    I  shall  oader  thia. 

fVbit  cause  was  ordered  to  stand  for  trial  at 
tfae  next  Great  Session.] 

At  the  Great  Session,  held  at  Wrexhan^ 
for  the  county  of  Denbigh,  in  Apdi,  1784,  the 
prosecutor  having  obtained  a  Certiorari,  which 
was  allowed  bv  the  Court,  removed  the  in* 
dictment  into  the  court  of  Kin^s-bench,  whea 
the  Court  directed  it  to  be  \ned  at  the  next 
assise  at  Shrewsbury. 


Friday,  August  6,  1784. 

The  Trial  came  en,  at  the  assize  at  Shicwa* 
buiryi  before  the  hon.  Mr.  Justice  BuUer. 

IVDierMENT. 


Jn  the  Court  of  Great  Sesuonty  Jar  th€ 
County  0^  JOenbiga.^^The  jurors  for  our  so* 
vereign  lord  the  long  upon  their  path  present, 
"*  That  William  Davies  Shipley,  late  of  Lian*. 
nerch,  in  the  parish  of  at  Asaph,  in  the 
county  of  Flint,  clerk,  being  a  person  of  a 
wicked  and  turbulent  disposition,  and  mah- 
ciously  designing  and  intending  to  excite  and 
diffijse  amongst  the  subjects  of  this  realm, 
discontenta,  jealousies,  and  suspicions  of  eur 
lord  the  king  and  bis  government,  and  disr 
affectk>n  ana  disbvalty  to  the  person  and  gov 
venunept  of  our  lord  the  now  kipe;  and  to 
ra^e  very  dangerous  seditions,  ana  tumults^ 
within  this  ki^^dom ;  and  to  dxuw  the  govera- 
ment  of  this  kmgdom  into  great  scandal,  in* 
fomy,  and  disgrace;  and  to  incite  the  sub- 
jeptaof  gur  Ipra^  I^ng  to  attempt  by  (utcu 

t 


«77] 


fit  a  iidlMom  UUl. 


A.  D.  1T8S. 


f8T8 


{ilidtk(leiee,«BdwithftrBi9^  tottidbeallem- 
tioii  iB  the  fiovemnittil,  «Uit^y  «im!  constitu- 
tion»  of  ^ib  Kingdom^  onAiii  Iflt  d^jof  Apvil, 
]^  the  9dfl  j«ar  of  the  reign  xi  our  ecnreragn 
lord  Oeorge  tiie  9dy  now  idne  of  Oteat  Bri- 
tain, ht.  at  Wrexham  aforesaid,  in  Uie  county 
of  Denbi^  aforesaid,  wickedly  and  sediti- 
ously jmbOshed,  and  caused  and  procuted  to 
.Republished,  a  certain  false,  wicked,  mali- 
cious, seditious,  and  scandalous  libel,  of  and 
conceniing  our  said  lond  the  king,  and  the* 
government  of  this  realm,  in  the  form  of  a 
fiuppoeed  Dialogue,  between  a  supposed  Gen- 
tleman and  a  supposed  Farmer;  wherein  the 
part  of  the  supposed  Gentleman  in  the  sup- 
posed I^alogue  is  denoted  by  the  letter  G. 
and  the  part  of  the  supposed  Farmer  in 
such  supposed  Dialogue  is  denoted  by  tiie 
letter  F.  entitled,  *  The  Principles  of  Govern- 

*  ment,  in  a  Dialogue  between  a  Gentleman 

*  and  a  Farmer ;'  in  which  said  libel  is  con- 
tained the  false,  wicked,  malicious,  seditious, 
and  scandalous  matters  following:  to  wit,  F. 
^mekning  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  Why 
should  Iramble  men  Hke  me  (meaning  the  said 
impposed  Farmer)  sign  or  set  maiks  to  petitions 
ofttiis  nature?  It  is  better  for  us  Farmers  to 
mind  our  husbandry,  and  leave  what  we  can- 
not comprehend  to  the  king  and  parliament 
O.  (meaning  the  said  supposed  uentleman) 
You  (meaning  the   said  supposed  Farmer) 
t»n  comprehend  more  tiian  you  (meaning  the 
said  supposed  Farmer)  imagine,  and  as  a  fre§ 
member  of  a  free  state^  have  higher  things 
to  mind  than  you  (meamng  the  said  supposed 
Parmer)  may  conceive.    F.  (meaning  the  said 
^supposed  Fanner)    If  by  free  you  (meaning 
the  said  sopposed  (Gentleman)  mean  out  of 
mson,  I  (meaiiii^  the  said  supposed  Farmer) 
tiope  to  continue  so  as  long  as  i  (meaning  the 
said  supposed  Farmer)  can  pay  my  (meaning 
^Ihe  saia   supposed   Fanner's)  rent  to   the 
'squire's  bailm ;  but  what  is  meant  by  a  free 
state?    G.  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Gen- 
tleman)   Tell  me  (meaning  the  said  supposed 
Oentleman)  ^rst,  what  is  meant  by  a  Chib. 
in  the  village  of  which,  I  (meaning  the  said 
siroposed  Gentleman)  know  you  (meaniiie  the 
said  supposed  Farmer)  to  be  a  member?    F. 
^(meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer)    It  is 
«n  ^  assembly  of  men  who  meet  alter  work 
evwy  Saturday,  to  be  merry  and  happy  for  a 
^ew  hours  in  the  week.    G.  (meamng  the 
said  supposed  Gentleman)  Have  you  (mean- 
ing the  said  supposed  Farmer)  no  other  object 
Init  mirth }   F.  (meanins  the  said  supposed 
Farmer)  Yes,  we  have  a  oox  into  which  we 
contribute  equally  from  our  monUily  or  week- 
^  savings,  and  out  of  which  an^  members  Of 
toe  chih  are  to'be  relieved  in  sickness  or  po- 
verty ;  for  the  parish  officers  are  so  cruel  and 
insolent,  that  it  were  better  to  starve  than  ap- 
^ytotiiem  (meaning  parish  officers)  for  re- 
lief.   O.  (miming  the  said  supposed  Gentle- 
man) -Did  they  (meaning  parish  officers)  orthe 
'sqmre,  orthe  parson,  or  all  tqe^ther, ronpi^l 
joQ  fmeaning  toe  ^a  supposed  ftaM>  "imd 


liis  M^mi  penMMii  oomposing  aueh  dub)  t» 
fotm  this  vmnsq\  F.  ^meaniDg  tbe  said  sup- 
posed Bmner)  Oh  t  no;  we  (ineaiuiig  the  laid 
tlub)  eould  not  be  compraed,  we  (wwnning 
the  said  chib)  fbnnad  it  by  our  own  dwioe. 
G.  (meaning  the  aaid  sasposed  GcndeoMin) 
You  (meamng  the  said  clii^>  did  rigla;  but 
have  you  (meanine  the  aaid  chilb)  tioi  some 
head  or  president  ofyour  chib  f    F.  (meaning 

tile  sud  suopoeed  FanBer)The  master  for  eaen 
night  is  <iiosen  by  all  the  company  presmt 
the  week  befoire.    G.  (meaning  the  said  sup- 
posed Gentleman)  Dees  be  ^OB^anin^  sudi 
master)  make  laws  to  bhid  you  (meanmg  th« 
said  club)  in  case  of  ill  temper  or  imsbeha- 
vk)ur?    F.  {iRieaning  the  said  supposed  Far* 
mar)  He  {[meaAhig  such  master)  make  laws ! 
he  (meanmg  the  said  master)  bind  us  t  (mean- 
ing the  saia  club)  no,  we  (meaning  the  said 
clttb)  have  all  agreed  to  a  set  of  certain  rales, 
whidi  are  sign^  by  every  new  earner,  and 
were  written  in  a  strange  hand  by  young  Spel- 
man,  the  lawyer's  clerk,  whose  \mcls  is  a 
men^ber.    G.  (meaailng  the  said  supposed 
Genlkman)  What  should  yen  (meaaine  the 
said  club)  Qo  if  any  one  member  were  to  insist 
on  becoming  perpetual  master,  and  on  alter- 
ing your  (meaning  the  said  club!s)  rules  at  his 
(meaning  such  one  raembeKs)  artntraiy  will 
and  pleasure?  F.  (meaning  the  said  soppoeed 
Farmer)  We  (meaning  tm  said  club)  snoidd 
expel  him,  (meaning  snch  one  memMi).    G. 
(meamtttg  the  said  supposed  Gentleman)  What 
if  he  (meaning  such  one  member)  were  to 
bring  a  serjeaS^s  goard  when  the  militia  am 
quaiiered  m  your  neighbourhood,  and  insist 
upon  your  (meaning  swh  dub's)  obeying  him^ 
(meaning  such  one  member)  ?    F.  (meaning 
the  said  supposed  Ftoner)  We  (meaning  sum 
diib)  shoula  Te«st  if  we  (meaning  the  ssJd 
club)  could;    if  not,  the  society  would  be 
broken  up.    G.  (meaning  the  said  supposed 
Gentleman)  Suppose  that  wi^  his  (meaning 
such   one   member's)   serjesmt's   guard   he 
(meaning  such  one  member)  were  to  take  the 
money  eot  of  the  box,  or  out  ofyour  (mean- 
ing the  members  of  the  duVs)  pockets.    7. 
(meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  Would 
not  that  be  a  robbeiy  f   G.  (meaning  the  said 
supposed  Gentleman)!  (meaningtiie  said  sup- 
posed GeoQeman)  am  seeking  infoimation 
from  you^  1[meaning  the  said  supposed  Far- 
mer) how  should  you  (meaning  the  said  club) 
act  on  such  an  occasion  f  F.  (meamng  the  said 
supposed  F^omer)  We  (meanmg  the  said  clu^) 
should  subihit  perhaps  at  that  time,  but  should 
af^rwards    tiy  to  apprehend  the  robbers. 
G.  (meaning  the  smd  supposed  Gcntleiuan) 
What  if  yon  (mearnne  I3ie  said  did))  could  not 
apprehendi^them  ?    F.  (meamng  ^tk  aeid  sup^ 
posed  Fanner)  We  (meaning  me  said  dub) 
ought  kill  them,!  {meaning  €ie  smd  supposed 
fwnei)  should  tfamk-:  snotf  the  king  (mean- 
ing our  said  lord  the^inj^  woidd  not  pardon 
ns,  (meaning  Use  said  chS)  ^od  •wounl.    O. 
(^ndming  the  «dd  aimposed  OeniMiaii)  Sbvr 
^oJdyon^^meiuaipg  w  vatdieliib)  either  sr|^ 


879] 


23  GEORGE  IIL     Proceedings  againatke  Dean  of  St.  Asaph,     [880 


prehettd  them,  (meaning  the  said  robbers)  or 
if  they  (meaning  the  said  robbers)  resisted, 
kill  tl:^m,  without  a  sufficient  force  in^our 
(meaning  the  said  cliib*s)  own  hands?    F. 
(meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  Oh,  we 
(meaning  the  said  club)  are  all  good  players 
at  sinde  stick,  and  each  of  us  (meaning  of  the 
said  club)  has  a  stout  cudgel  or  quarter-staff 
in  the  comer  of  his  room.    G.  (meaning  the 
said  supposed  Gentleman)  Suppose  that  a  few 
of  the  club  were  to  domineer  over  the  rest, 
and  insist   upon    making  laws   for   them? 
(meaning  the  rest  of  the  said  club.)    F. 
(meaning   the  said   supposed   Farmer)    we 
(meaning  the  rest  of  the  said  dub)  must  take 
the  same  course,  except  that  it  would  be  easier 
to  restrain  one  man  than  a  number ;    but  we 
(meaning  the  rest  of  the  said  club)  should  be 
the  majority  with  justice  on  our  side.    G. 
^meaning  the  said  supposed  Gentleman)  A 
word  or  two  on  another  head ;    some  of  you, 
(meaning  the  said  club)  I  (meaning  the  said 
supppsea  Gentleman)  presume,  are  no  great 
accountants.    F.  (meaning  the  said  supposed 
Farmer)  Few  of  us  (meamng  the  saiu-  club) 
imderstand^  accounts;  but  we  (meaning  the 
said  club)  trust  old  Lilly  the  schoolmaster, 
whom  we  (meaning  the  said  club)  believe  to 
be  an  honest  man ;  and  he  keeps  the  key  of 
our  (meaninc  the  said  club's)  box.  G.  fmean- 
ing  the  said  supposed  Gentleman)  If  your 
(meaning  the  said  club's)  mone^  should  in 
time  amount  to  a  large  sum,  it  might  not  per- 
haps   be    safe    to  keep   it   (meaning  such 
large  sum)  at  his  (meanine  Lilly's)   house, 
or  m  any  private  house?    F.  (meamng  the 
said  supposed  Fanner)  Where   else  should 
we  (meaning  the  said  club)  keep  it  (meaning 
such  large  sum)?    G.  (meaning  the  said  sup- 
posed  Gentleman)   You  (meaning  the  said 
club)  might  choose  to  put  it  (meaning  such 
money)  into  the  fimds,  or  to  lend  it  the  squire, 
who  has  lost  so  much  lately  at  Newmarket, 
taking  his  bond,  or  some  of  his  fields,  as 
your  (meaning  tne  said  club's)  security  for 
payment  with  mterest.   F.  (meaning  the  said 
supposed  Farmer)  We   (meaning   the   said 
club)  must  in  that  case  confide  in  young  Spel- 
man,  who  will  soon  set  up  for  himself,  ana,  if 
a  lawyer  can  be  honest,  will  be  an  honest 
lawyer.   G.  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Gen- 
tleman) What  power  do  you  (meaning  the 
said  club)  give  to  Lilly ;  or  should  you  (mean- 
ing the  said  club)  give  to  Spelman  in  the  case 
supposed?    F.  (meaning  tne  said  supposed 
Farmer)  No  power*,    we  (meaning  the  said 
club)  should  give  them  both  (meaning  Lilly 
and  Spelman)  a  due  allowance  for  their  trou- 
ble, and  should  expect  a  faithful  account  of 
all  they  had  done  for  us  (meaning  the  said 
club).    G.  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Gen- 
tleman) Honest  men  may  change  tneir  nature. 
What  if  both  or  either  of  them  (meanine 
Lilly  and  Spelman)  were,  to  deceive   you  r 
(meaning  the  said  club.)    F.  (meaning  the 
aaid  supposed  Farmer)  We  (meaning  the  said 
club)  should  remove  them,  (mea^;ung  Lilly 


and  Spehnoo)  put  our  (meaning  the  said 
club's)  trust  in  better  men,  and  tiy  to  repair 
our   (meaning  the  said   club's)  loss.     G. 
(meaning  the  said  supposed  Gentleman)  Did 
it  never  occur  to  you  (meaning  the  said  sup- 
posed Farmer)  that  every  state  or  nation  was 
only  a  great  club?    F.  (meaning  the  said 
supposed  Farmer)  Nothing  ever  occurred  to 
me  (meaning  himself,  the  said  supposed  Far- 
mer) ou  the  subject,  for  I  (meanii^  himself 
the  said  supposed  •Farmer)   never  thought 
about  it.    G.   (meaning  the  said  supposed 
Gentleman)  Though  you  (meaning;  the  said 
suppos^  Farmer)  never  tnought  Before  on 
the  subject,  yet  you  (meaning  the  said  sufv- 
posed  Farmer)  may  be  able  to  tell  me  (mean- 
ing the  said  sup]M)sed  Gentleman)  why  you 
(meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer)   sup- 
pose men  to  have  assembled,  and  to  have 
formed  nations,  communities  or  states,  whick 
all  mean  the  same  thing.    F.  (ooeaning  the 
said  supposed  Farmer)  In  order,  I  (meaning 
himself,  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  should 
imagine,  to  be  as  happy  as  they  (meaning 
men)  can^  while  they  (meaning  men)  live. 
G.  (meaning  the  saia  supposea  Gentleman) 
By  happy,  do  you  (meaning  the  said  supposea 
Farmer)  mean  meny  only  r    F.  (meanmg  the 
said  supposed  Farmer.)    To  be  as  merry  as 
they  (meaning  men)  can,  without  hurting 
themselves  or  their  neighbours,  but  chiefly  to 
secure  themselves  from  danger,  and  1o  relieve 
their  wants.    G.  (meaning  the  said  supposed 
Gentleman)  Do  you  (meaning  the  said  sup- 
posed Farmer)  believe  that  any  king  or  em- 
peror compelled  them  (meaning  men)  so  to 
associate  ?    F.    (meaning  the  said  supposed 
Farmer)  How  could  one  man  compel  a  multi*- 
tilde  ?    A  king,  or  an  emperor,  I  (meaning 
hiiKelf,  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  presume^ 
is  not  born  with  an   hundred  mmds.    G. 
(meaning    the   said   supposed   Gentlen^an) 
When  a  prince' of  the  blood  shall  in  any 
country  be  so  distinguished  by  nature,!  (mean- 
ing himself,  the  said  supposed  Gentleman) 
shall  then,  and   then   onlv,  conceive  him 
(meaning  such  prince)  to  be  a  greater  man 
than  you  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Far- 
mer) ;  but  might  not  an  army  with  a  king  or 
ffeneral  at  their  head,  have  -compelled  tlicm 
(meaning  men)  to  assemble?    F.  (meaning 
the  said  supposed  Farmer)  Yes ;  but  the  army 
must  have heen  formed  by  their  own  choice; 
one  man,  or  a  few,  can  never  govern  many 
without  their  consent.    G.  (meaning  the  said 
supposed  Gentleman)  Suppose,  however,  that 
a  muUitude  of  men,  assembled  in  a  town  or 
city,  were  to  choose  a  king  or  governor, 
xnight  they  (meaning  such  multitude)  not 
eive  him  (meaning  such  king  or  governor) 
high  power  and  auuioritv?    F.  (meaning  the 
said  supposed  Farmer)  To  be  sure ;  but  they 
(meaning  such  multitude)  would  never  be  so 
mad,  I  ^eaning  himself,  the  said  supposed 
Farmer)  nope,  as  to  give  him  (meaning  such 
king  or  governor)  a  power  or  making  their 
(meaning  such  mult^ude's)  laws.    G.  (meao- 


881] 


fir  a  Seditious  Lihd^ 


ing  the  sdwf  supposed  Gentleman)  Who  else 
should  -make  ^tnem  f  (meaning  laws.)     F. 
(Kteaning  the  said   supposed   Farmei)   The 
vholfe  nation  or  people.    G.  (meaning  the 
said    supposed  Gentleman)   What   if  ther 
(meaning  nation  or  people)  disagreed?    F. 
(meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  The 
opinion  of  the  greater  number,  as  in  our  vil- 
lage-clubs, must  be  taken,  and  prevail.    G. 
(meaning  the    said    supposed   Gentleman) 
What  could  be  done,  if  the  society  were  so 
large  that  all  could  not  meet  in  the  same 
place  ?    F.  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Far- 
mer) A  greater  number  must  choose  a  less. 
G.  (meanins  the  said  supposed  Gentleman) 
Who  shoidd  be  the  choosers  ?    F.  (meaning 
the  said  supposed  Farmer)  All  those  who  are 
not  upon  tiie  parish.  In  our  club  (meaning  the 
said  dub)  if  a  man  asks  relief  of  the  overseer, 
he  ceases  to  be  one  of  us,  ^meaning  the 
said   club)  because   he  (meamng   the   said 
man)  must   depend  on  the  overseer.      G. 
(meaning  the    said   supposed   Gentleman) 
Could  not  a  few  men,  one  m  seven  for  instance, 
chuse  the  assembly  of  law-makers,  as  well  as 
a  larger  number  ?    F.  (meaning  the  said  sup- 
posed Farmer)  As  conveniently  perhaps;  but 
I  (meaning  tWe  ssud  supposed  Farmer)  would 
not  suffer  any  man  to  chuse  another,  who 
vras  to  make  laws,  by  which  my  (meanfng  his 
the  said  supposed  Farmer's)  money,  or  my 
(meaning  his  the  said  supposed  Farmer's) 
life,  mig^t  be  taken  from  me  (meaning  the 
said  supposed  Fanner).     G.  (meaning  the 
said  supposed  Gentleman)  Have  you  (mean- 
ing the  said  supposed  Farmer)  a  freehold  in 
any  county,  of  forty  shillings  a  year?    F. 
(meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  I  (mean- 
ing the  said  supposed  Farmer)  have  nothins 
ifll  the  world  but  my  (meaning  his  the  said 
supposed  Farmer*s)  cattle,  implements  of  hus- 
baiKlry,'  and  houshold  0C>ods,  together  with 
my  (meaning  his  the  said  supposed  Farmer's) 
farm,   for  which  I    (meanmg  himself  the 
said  supposed  Farmer)  py  a  fixed  rent  to  the 
squire.    G.  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Gen- 
tlifeman)  Have  y6u  (meaning  the  said  supposed 
Firmer)  a  vote  in  any  city  or  borough  ?    F. 
^meaniDig  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  I  (mean- 
mg himself  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  have 
no  vote  at  all,  but  am  aole  by  my  (meaning 
his  the  said  supposed  Farmer's)  honest  Is^bour 
to  support  my  (meaning  his  the  said  supposed 
]''arm^s)'vme  and  four  children;  and  whilst 
1  (meaning  himself  the  said  supposed  Farmer) 
act  honestTy^  I  (meaning  himself  the  said  sup- 
posed Farmer)  may  defy  the  laws.    G.  (mean- 
mg the  said  supposed  Gentleman)  Can  you 
(meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  be  igno- 
tant  that  the  parliament,  to  which  members 
are  sent  by  this  coxmty,  and  by  the  next 
market  town,  have  power  to  make  new  laws. 
hy  w^hich  you  (meaning  the  said  supposed 
Farmer)  and  your  (meaning  the  said  supposed 
Farmer's)  family  may  be  stripped  of  your 
(meanine  his  the  said  supposed  Farmer's  and 
nis  famiJ^'s)  goodS;  thrown  into  prison;  and 
VOL.  XXI. 


A.  I>.  1783.  [882 

even  deprived  of  life  ?  F.  fmeaning  tiie  said 
supposed  Farmer)  A  dreadful  power !  I  (mean- 
ing himself  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  never 
made  enquiries,  having  business  of  my  (mean- 
ing his  the  said  supposed  Farmer's)  own  con- 
cerning the  business  of  parliament,  butima- 
fined  tiiatthe  laws  had  ocen  fixed  for  many 
imdred  years.  G.  (meaning  the  said  sup- 
posed Gentleman)  The  common  laws  to 
which  you  (meaniuj^  the  said  supposed  Far- 
mer! refer,  are  equal/ just,  and  humane ;  but 
the  king  (meaning  our  said  lord  the  king)  and 
parliament  (meaning  the  parliament  of  this 
realm)  may  alter  them  (meaning  the  laws  of 
this  realm)  when  they  (meaning  oiir  said  lord 
the  king,  and  the  said  parliament)  please.  F. 
(meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  The  king 
ought  therefore  to  be  a  good  man,  and  the 
parliament  to  consist  of  men  equally  good, 
G.  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Gentleman) 
The  king  alone  can  do  no  harm ;  but  who 
must  judge  the  goodness  of  parliament  men? 
F.  (meanmg  the  said  supposed  farmer)  All 
those  whose  property,  freedom,  and  lives,  may 
be  affected  by  tneir  (meanihg  the  parliament 
men's)  laws.  G.  (meaningthe  said  supposed 
Gentleman)  Yet  six  men  in  seven  who  inha- 
bit this  kingdom  (meaning. the  kingdom  of 
Great  Britain)  have  like  you  (meaning  the 
said  supposed  Farmer)  no  votes  (meaning 
votes  in  the  election  of  members  of  the 
House  of  Commons  of  this  kingdom)  and  the 
petition  which  I  (meaning  the  said  supposed 
Gentleman)  desired  you  (meaning  the  said 
supposed  Farmer)  to  sign,  has  nothing  for  its 
(meaning  such  petition's)  object,  but  the  re- 
storation of  you  all,  (meaning  the  six  men  iii^ 
seven  who  inhabit  this  kingdom,  having  no  * 
votes  as  aforesaid)  to  the  right  of  chusing. 
those  law-makers,  by  whom  your  (meaning 
the  last  mentioned  men's)  money,  or  your 
(meaning  the  last  mentioned  men*s)  uvcs 
may  be  taken  from  you  (meaning  the  said 
last  mentioned  men).  Attend,  while  I  (mean- 
ing the  said  supposed  Gentleman)  read  it 
(meaning  Uie  said  petition)  distinctly.  F. 
'meaning  the  ssdd  supposed  Farmer)  Give  me 
'meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  your 
^'meaning  the  said  supposed  Gentleman^s) 
pen :  I  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer) 
never  wrote  my  (meaning  his  the  said  sup- 
posed Farmer's)  name,  ill  as  it  may  be  writ- 
ten, lyith  greater  eagerness.  G.  (meaning 
the  said  supposed  Gentleman)  I  (meaning  the 
said  supposed  GenlJeman)  applaud  vou  (meao^ 
ing  the  said  supposed  farmer)  and  trust  that 
your  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer's) 
example  will  be  followed  by  millions.  Ano* 
ther  word  beforo  we  (meanmg  the  said  sup-^ 
posed  Gentleman,  and  the  said  supposed  Far- 
mer) part — Recollect  your  (meaning  the  said 
supposed  Farmer's)  opinion  about  your  club  in 
the  village  ^meaning  the  said  club) ;  and  tell  me 
(meaning  the  said  supposed  Gentleman)  what 
ought  to  be  the  consequence,  if  tlie  king 
(meaning  our  said  k>xd  the  king)  alone  were 
to  insist  on  making  laws,  or  on  altering  them 
3  L 


883] 


23  GEORGE  III.     ProceMngt  qgainti  the  Dean  of  St.  Asaph^    [884 


at  hisk(ineaiung  our  ssud  lord  the  king's)  will 
and  pleasure.  F.  (meaning  the  said  supposed 
Fanner)  He  (meaning  our  said  lord  the  kin^) 
too  must  be  expelled.  G.  (meaning  the  said 
supposed  Gentleman)  Oh  !  but  think  of  his 
(meaning  our  said  lord  ^  the  king's)  standinjg 
army,  and  of  the  militia,  which  now  are  his 
(meanins  our  said  lord  the  king's)  in  sub- 
stance, tnough  ours  (meaning  the  subiects  of 
this  realm)  in  form.  F.t(meaning  the  ssdd 
supposed  Farmer)  If  he  (meaning  our  said 
lord  the  king)  were  to  employ  that  force 
against  the  nation  (meaning  the  subjects  of 
this  realm)  they  (meaning  the  said  nation) 
would,  and  ought  to  resist  him  (meaning  our 
said  lord  the  king)  or  the  state  would  cease  to 
be  a  state.  G.  (meaning  the  said  supposed 
Gentleman)  What  if '^  the  great  accountants 
and  great  lawyers,  the  Lillys  and  Spelmans  of 
the  nation  (meaning  this  kingdom)  were  to 
abuse  their  (meaning  the  said  great  account- 
ants, and  great  lawyers)  trusty  and  cruellv  in- 
jure instead  of  faithflUly  serving  the  public  ? 
P.  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  We 
(meaning  the  subjects  of  this  realm)  must  re- 
quest the  king  (meaning  our  said  lord  the 
king)  to  remove  tnem  (meaning  the  ssud  great 
accountants  and  great  lawyers)  and  make 
trial  of  others ;  but  none  should  implicitly  be 
trusted.  G.  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Gen- 
tleman) But  what  if  a  few  great  lords,  or 
wealthy  men,  were  to  keep  the  kin^  (mean- 
ing our  said  lord  the  kiii^  nimself  in  subjec- 
tion, yet  exert  his  (meamns  our  said  lord  Uie 
kinz's)  force,  lavish  his  (meaning  our  said 
lord  the  king's)  treasure,  and  misuse  his, 
(meaning  our  said  lord  the  king's)  name,  so 
as  to  domineer  over  the  people  (meaning  the 
sul^ects  of  this  realm)  and  manage  the  par- 
liament? (meaning  the  parliament  of  this 
realm).  F.  (meaning  the. said  supposed  Far- 
mer) We  (meaning  the  subjects  ot  this  realm^ 
must  fight  for  the  king  (meaning  our  said  lord 
the  king)  and  ourselves  (meaning  the  said 
subjects  of  this  realm.)  G.  (meaning  the  said 
supposed  Gentleman)  You  (meaning  the  said 
supposed  Farmer)  talk  of  fighting,  as  if  you 
(meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  were 
speaking-  of  some  rustic  engagement  at  a 
wake ;  but  your  (meaning  the  subjects  of  this 
tealm)  quarter-staffs  would  avul  you  (mean- 
ing the  ^aid  subjects)  httle  against  bayonets. 
F.  (meaning  the  said  suppoi^  Farmer)  We 
(meaning  the  said  subjects)  might  easilv  pro- 
vide ourselves  (meaning  the  said  subjects) 
with  better  arms.  G.  (meaning  the  said  sup- 
posed Gentleman)  Not  so  easily :  when  the 
moment  of  resbtance  came,  you  (meaning 
the  said  subjects)  would  be  deprived  of  all  arms, 
&nd  those  who  should  funush  you  (meaning 
the  said  subjects)  with  them,  (meaning  arms) 
or  exhort  you  (meaning  the  said  subjects)  to 
take  them  ^eaninz  arms)  up,  would  be  called 
traitors,  and  probably  put  to  death.  F.  (mean- 
ing the  said  supposed  Farmer)  We  (meaning 
the  said  subjects)  ought  always  therefore  to 
be  ready,  and  keep  each  of  us  (meaning  such 


subjects)  a  strong  firelock  in  the  comer  of  hb 
(meaning   such    subject's)    bed-room,     G.. 
(meaniHg  the  said  supposed  Gentleman)  That 
would  be  legal,  as  well  as  rational.    Are  you, 
(meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  mv  ho- 
nest friend,,  provided  with  a  musket?    F. 
(meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer)  I  (mean- 
ing the  said  supposed  Farmer)  will  contribute 
no  more  to  the  club,  (meaning  the  club  above 
mentioned)  and  purchase  a  mdock  with  my 
^meaning  the  said  suoposed  Fanner's)  sav- 
mgs.    G.;  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Gen- 
tieman)  It  is  not  necessary.    I  (meaning  the 
said  supposed  GeuUeman)  have  two,  (mean- 
ing two  firelocks)  and  wUl  make  you  (mean- 
ing the  said  supposed  Farmer)  a  present  of 
one  (meaning  one  firelock)  with  complete 
accoutrements.    F.  (meaning  the  said  sup- 
posed Farmer)  I  (meaning  the  said  supposed 
Farmer)  accept  it  (meaning  the  ssdd  last  meiir 
tioned  nrelock)  thankfull^r,  and  will  coaversa 
with  you  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Gentle- 
msSo)  at  your  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Gen- 
tleman's) leisure  on  other  sutyects  of  this  kind. 
G.  (meaning  the  said  supposed  GenUeman) 
In  the  mean  while,  spena  an  hour  every 
morning  in  the  next  fortnight  in  learning  to 
prime  and  load  expeditiously,  and  to  fire  and 
charge  with  bayonet  firmly  and  regularly :  I 
(meaning  the  said  supposed  Gentleman)  say 
every  momins,  because  if  you  (meaning  tfao 
said  supposeoT  Farmer)  exercise  too  late  in 
the  evening,  you  (meaning  the  said  supposed 
Fanner)  may  fall  into  some  of  the  le^  snares 
which  have  been  spread  for  you  4)y  thosa 
genUemen,   who  would  rather  secure  gaiut 
mr  their  table,  than  liberty  for  the  nation 
(meaning  this  realm.)    F.  (meaning  the  said 
supposea  Farmer)  Some  of  my  (meaning  his, 
the  said  supposed  Farmer's)  neighbours,  who 
have   served  in  the  militia   ^meaning  tbo 
militia  of  this  realm)  will  readily  teach  me, 
(meaning  the  sud  supposed  Farmer);  and 
perhaps  the  whole  village  ifia^  be  persuaded 
to  procure  arms  and  learn  their  exercise.    G. 
(meaning  the  said  supposed  Gentieman)  It 
cannot  be  expected  that  the  villagers  should 
purchase  arms ;  but  they  (meaning  such  vil- 
lagers) might  easily  be  supplied  if  the  gentry 
of  the  nation  (meaning  this  realm)  would 
spare   a   littie   from   their  (meaning  such 
gentry's)  vices  and  luxury,    f .  (meanmg  tbt 
said  supposed  Farmer)  May  they  Qneaning 
such  gentrv)  turn  to  some  sense  of  honour 
and  virtue !  G.  (meaning  the  said  supposed 
Gentieman)    Farewell  at   present,   and  re* 
member  that  a  free  state  is  only  a  more  nu* 
merous  and  more  powerful  club,  and  that  ht 
only  is  a  free  man,  who  is  member  of  such  a 
state.  F.  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Fanner) 
Good  moroingy  Sir,  you  (meaning  the  said 
supposed  Gentieman)  have  made  me  (mean- 
ing the  said  supposed   Farmer)  wiser  and 
better  than  I  (meaning  himself  the  said  sup- 
posed Farmer)  was  yesterday ;  and  yet  roe- 
thinks  I  (meaning  himself  the  said  supposed 
Farmer)  had  some  knowledge  ia  my  (meaning 


«85:) 


Jwa  SedUiouf  LiM.* 


A.  D.  1783. 


[886 


the  said  supposed  Farmer's)  own  mind  of  this 
great  subject,  and  have  been  a  politician  all 
my  (meaning  the  said  supposed  Farmer's) 
life,  without  perceiving  it. — In  contempt  of 
our  said  lord  the  king  and  his  laws,  to  the  evil 
example  of  all  others  in  the  like  case  offend- 
ing, and  against  the  peace  of  our  said  lord  the 
kins,  his  crown,  and  dignity. 

[It  was  laid  in  a  second  count,  the  same  as 
the  former,  only  omitting  the  Ldnuendos.] 

Jury.        • 

John  Nicholls,  of  Chelmarsh,  esq. 
William  Pemberton,  of  Walford,  esq. 
Charles  Walcott,  of  Bitteriey,  esq.        v 
Francis  Lloyd,  of  Berghill,  esq.  "" 

Thomas  Ottley,  of  Pitchford,  esq. 
Joshua  Blakeway,  of  Lythwood,  esq. 
Richard  Jones,  of  Riston,  esq. 
John  Hill,  of  Prees,  esa. 
*  Edward  Williams,  of  Norton,  esq. 
Thomas  Kinnersley,  of  Leighton,  esq. 
Thomas  Evton,  of  Wellington,  esq. 
John  Smitheman,  of  Buildwas,  esq. 

Countelfor  the  Crown, — ^Mr.  Bearcroft,  Mr. 
Cowner,  Mr.  Leycester,  Mr.  Bower,  Mr. 
'Maniey,  Mr.  Richards. 

SoUcUor, — Mr.  William  Jones,  of  Ruthin. 

Counaelfor  the  Defendant, ^The  Hon.  Tho- 
mas Erskme,  Mr.  Corbett,  the  Hon.  Thomas 
Broderick,  Mr.  Abbot. 

Sotieitor, — Mr.  Lewis  Hughes,  of  St  Asaph. 

The  Indictment  was  opened  by  Mr.  Richards. 

Mr.  Bearcroft,  Msy  it  please  your  lordship, 
and  gentlemen  of  the  jury ;  It  fans  to  my  lot  to 
appear  as  counsel  for  this  prosecution,  which 
bnngs  forward  a  case,  I  perceive,  of  consider- 
able expectation. — I  shau  be  careful  however 
aot  to  mtroduce  any  improper  wannth  upon 
the  occasion ;  and  I  heartiW  hope  that  ^ou 
are  perfectly  free  from  an^  thing  of  the  kmd. 
All  I  shall  desire  of  ^rou  will  be,  to  attend  to, 
and  to  understand  this  charge,  and  the  ques- 
tion that  you  are  to  determme;  and  then  to 
decide  like  men  of  honour,  sood  subjects,  and 
men  of  sense,  according  to  tne  evidence.  * 

Gentlemen,  how  this  prosecution  was  insti- 
tuted, and  by  whom,  is  a  matter  that  I  am 
Htterly  unacquainted  with,  except  by  report ; 
and  it  is  a  matter  that  has  nothing  to  do  with 
the  present  business.  I  am  to  state  to  you, 
and  to  explain  as  well  as  I  shall  be  able,  the 
nature  oi  the  charge ;  I  am  to  call  the  wit^ 
Besses  to  prove  it;  you  are  to  hear  the  other 
side,  which  is  essential  to  all  inquiries  of  jus- 
tice ;  and  then  you  will  consider  whether  the 
defendant  is,  or  is  not,  guilty  of  the  offence 
whereof  he  stands  accus^. 

Gentlemen,  the  charge  is  against  the  de- 
fendant, Mr.  Shipley,  dean  of  St  Asaph,  a 
clergyman  in  possession  of  very  large  church 
preferments,  that  he  has  published  a  libel  of 
and  concerning  the  king  and  his  government, 
and  when  I  state  it  thus  shortly,  I  venture  to 
Ihink  that  I  iiave  state^  correctly,  as  a  lawy^. 


the  substance  and  effect  of  the  present  in- 
dictmeQ««  It  behoves  me  however  to  enter 
somewhat  more  deeply  into  it,  and  to  shew 
why  it  is  to  be  considered  as  a  libel,  and  why 
it  is  fit  to  be  punished.  A  libel  is  a  crime 
against  the  public,  as  I  have  ever  understood 
it,  upon  this  simple  principle— that  it  tends 
to  a  oreach  of  the  public  peace,  as  a  libel  is 
always  charged  to  do ;  if  it  can  be  stripped  of 
that  quality,  and  those  whose  proper  duty  it 
is  shail  pronounce  that  it  does  not  in  any  de- 
^ree  tend  to  a  breach  of  the  public  peace, 
there  certainly  is  no  criminal  matter  in  it 
On  the  other  hand  I  contend,  that  if  it  does 
in  the  smallest  desree  tend  to  the  breach  of 
the  public  peace,  mat  then  it  is  a  libel  pu- 
nishable by  way  of  indictment. 

Gentlemen,  the  present  libel  is  a  publica- 
tion of  considerable  length— it  *is  aadresscd 
to  the  Multitude — ^by  which  I  am  sure  I  shall 
not  have  justice  done  me,  if  I  am  supposed  to 
use  it  as  a  term  of  contempt — I  mean  no  such 
thing,  I  am  as  clearly  of  opinion  as  the  rev. 
dean  who  has  published  this,  that  the  multi- 
tude in  a  free  country  are  justly  respectable ; 
the  meaainff  of  my  observation  that  it  is  ad- 
dressed to  the  multitude  is,  that  it  is  there- 
fore the  more^  likely  to  produce  that  which  I 
consider  as  the  essence,  the  foundation  of  cri- 
mmaUty  in  a  libel,  that  is  to  say,  to  break  the 
public  peace. 

Gentlemen,  the  manner  of  this  publication 
is  conceived  in  a  Dialogue  between  a  Gentle- 
man and  a  Farmer ;  and  I  think  I  may  fairly 
remark,  that  even  by  the  very  first  lines  which 
are  us^  in  it,  and  put  in  the  mouth  of  the 
Farmer,  very .  naturaily  ftnd  in  character,  it 
will  appear,  that  there  was  no  necessity,  in 
these  times,  for  this  application  to  men  of  that 
description. 

Gentlemen,  the  Dialogue  seems  to  me  to  be 
supposed  to  begin  upon  occasion -of  an  appli- 
cation very  frequent  on  all  sides;  for  if  there 
were  no  sides,  and  no  parties,  nothing  of  this 
sort,  I  am  satisfied,  would  ever  appear.  Ap- 
plying to  such  a  character  as  an  honest 
Farmer  to  sign  a  certain  petition,  a  petition 
which  must  undoubtedly  be  supposed  to  state 
certain,  and  one  may  conceive  what  kind  of 
particular,  grievances.  Upon  that  application, 
the  first  words  in  the  Dialogue  in  the  mouth 
of  the  Farmer,  are,  "  Why  should  humble 
men  like  me  sign,  or  set  marks  to  petitions 
of  this  nature  ?  It  is  better  for  us  farmers  to 
mind  our  husbandry,  and  leave  what  we  can- 
not comprehend,  to  the  king  and  parliament*' 
Sound  sense  and  good  doctrine  this  in  the 
mouth  of  the  Farmer :  it  would  have  been 
very  well  if  he  had  been  lefl  undisturbed  in 
these  sentiments,  by  those,  whose  business  it 
is,  frdm  their  function,  to  preach  far  different 
doctrine  than  what  this  paniphlet  contains ; 
whose  text  should  be,  **  Fear  God,  and  honour 
the  King."  Yet  in  this  paper  is  to  be  found 
not  a  syllable  of  piety ;  and  a  doctrine  oppo- 
site to  that  of  "  honour  the  king,"  is  planily 
inculcated.    The  Fanner  stating  his  sense 


887] 


23  GEORGE  HI.     Proceedififf  agaimt  tie  Dam  of  Si.  Asaph,     (888 


and  bis  feeling,  and  not  seeming  di^Kwed  to 
sign  this  petition,  he  is  beset  with  several 
questions^  which  are  calculated  to  intrap  his 
understanding,  and  to  persuade  him  that  he 
b  what  he  did  not  at  all  feel,  or  suspect  him- 
ae]f  to  be— cheated  of  his  birthright;  and 
that  he  has  no  chance  of  recovering  it,  but  by 
turning  soldier,  and  learning  the  Prussian 
exercise ;  for  he  is  advised,  aim  all  his  brother 
freeholders  are  advised,  every  morning  to 
£pend  an  hour  in  learning  the  manual  exer- 
cise, to  learn  to  prime  ancfload  expeditiously, 
and  to  fire,  and  charge  with  the  bavouet, 
firmly  and  regularly— All  this  you  will  find 
when  the  paper  comes  to  be  read — and  to 
make  themselves  a  match  for  the  king's 
standing  army,  and  the  militia  of  this  coua- 
tiy,  in  substance,  as  it  is  alledged  by  this 
libel,  his  standing  army,  tlKxish  in  form.  ours. 
That  doctrine  you  will  find,  I  believe,  in  the 
very  words  that  I  have  uttered,  flatly  and 
plainly  averred  in  the  course  of  this  publican 
JioiL  1^ 

Gentlemen,  for  what  is  all  this  to  be  done? 
—I  do  not  read  the  whole  Dialo^^e  to  you, 
for  that  must  necessarily  be  done  m  evidence, 
but  I  am  stating  to  you  as  I  really  feel  and 
understand  it — the  argument,  the  persuasion, 
and  the  end  tliat  is  proposed  by  publishing 
and  dispersing  in  Enelish,  and  as  it  was  in- 
tended, m  Welsh,  and  delivering  gratis,  this 
Dialogue  to  the  people  of  the  neighbouring 
principality — the  grievance  suggested  to  this 
Farmer,  who  felt  none,  is  this,  thattndya 
false,  an  unjust,  an  unconstitutional,  mode  of 
representation  takes  place  in  this  country — 
^^  suggestion  is  this,  tb^t  every  man  of  one 
and  twenty  in  this  country  has  a  right  to  vote, 
in  some  shape  or  other,  to  send  representa- 
tives to  parliament;  and  this  the  learned  and 
reverend  divine  asserts  to  be  the  constitution 
of  England. 

Gentlemen,  we  consist  of  many  millions  of 
people ;  and  it  would  be  a  dreadful  thing  if  it 
were  the  constitotion  of  this  counti^ — not 
Oiuch  improved  too,  if  everv  man  of  tnat  de<- 
scription  was  taught  to  load  and  prime  quick, 
and  to  make  use  of  a  bayonet — picture  to 
yourselves  all  the  men  of  this  populous  king- 
dom that  can  writo  twenty-one,  attendins  at 
elections,  with  a  musket  upon  their  shoulder, 
an4  a  bayonet  at  their  side ;  recollect  tbat 
spirit  of  quarrel  which  perpetually  attends 
every  assembly  of  people  on  such  occasions  : 
then  tell  me  whether  any  man  of  a  good 
heart,  or  a  sound  head,  can  wish  for  sucn  an 
event  in  this  country.  Does  not  every  man 
that  is  entitled  to  that  description  lament  to 
the  bottom  of  his  heart,  that  at  this  moment 
there  is  a  country,  near  in  situation  and  in 
interest,  which  wears  an  appearance  too  li^e 
this  shocking  picture  ?  The  grievance  thai  is 
suggested  by  the  Dialogue  to  exibt  in  this 
country,  is  just  what  I  luive  stated.  It  then 
goes  on  to  argue  in  this  way — How  are  you 
to  restore  your  rights?— By  being  armed, 
^d  )iieu  it  16  observed,  ^t  it  is  the  right  of 


i  a  sybject  of  this  country  to  be  arnwd— inops 

i  sense  there  is  not  the  least  doubt  of  itr-4t  is 
\  the  right  of  the  people  of  this  oountiy,  aai 
that  nght  alone  is  sufficient  to  defend  them- 
selves against  a  real  attack  upon  their  libertiea 
— by  the  law  of  this  country  eveiy  man  is  en* 
titl^  to  be  in  possession  of  arms — ^I  agroe 
most  perfectly  with  the  best  ^eods  of  tb« 
levo-end  defendant,  that  any  attempt  by  law 
to  disarm  the  people  of  this  countm  to  take 
from  them  the  power  of  defendins  themsdves 
upon  a  proper  occasion,  is  illegal  and  uncon- 
stitutional ;  and  I  would  go  as  lar  as  anyman 
to  exclaim  against  any  such  attempt — bat, 
gentlemen,  is  it  not  enough  for  fireeoteo,  that 
they  may  have  the  arms  in  their  houses,  that 
according  to  their  stale  and  degree,  aod  the 
fashion  of  the  times,  they  may  wear  them,  if 
thev  please ;  but  can  he  be  a  good  subject, 
and  wish  well  to  the  commonwealth,  who 
advises  almost  every  man  in  this  couiiUy  to 
become  a  soldier? 

Gentlemen,  I  do  not  remind  you  bow  nus- 
chievous  it  would  be  to  the  arts  and  to  agri- 
culture, because  that  is  not  a  question  before 
you;  but  I  say,  the  man  who  advises  the 
subjects  of  this  country  to  bter  arm»--ibr 
such  is  the  effect  of  thb  Dialogue,  and  that 
with  a  view  to  reinstate  themselves  in  ^tie 
fancied  ri^ht  of  every  man  voting  lor  a  i^^te- 
sentative  m  parliament,  is  guil^  of  a  gfoea 
and  a  heinous  libel ;  for  it  not  only  teaw  di- 
rectly to  the  breach  of  the  jpeaoe  in  soine  de- 
gree, which  is  enough  to  form  a  libel,  but  it 
is  impossible  but  that  you  must  see  that  k 
tends  to  tumults,  seditions,  and  the  oMst 
dreadful  consequences.  The  thoi^ht,  for  it 
seems  to  lae  tnat  there  is  hacdlv  more  than 
one,  that  pervades  this  Dialogue  mxn  tbe  be- 
ginning to  the  end,  seems  to  b^  comparing  this 
country  to  a  self  instituted  dub— I  fr'Si  not 
wage  war  with  gpreat  names  and  speculative 
pohticians  in  their  closets:  it  is  asserted  tmoa 
one  of  the  leaves  of  this  libel,  that  the  ae&> 
trine  promulgated  by  this  Dialogue,  is  ^ipch 
as  you  may  read  in  Locke  and>otner  g^eat  au- 
thorities upon  government— I  believe  that  is 
not  so ;  but  if  it  were,  there  is  a  wide  dii^ 
ference  between  speculations  and  exhorta- 
tions. If  I  am  rignt  in  ooncluding  ibat  the 
doctrine,  and  the  advice  of  tins  paper,  is  that 
every  male  of  twenty-one  has  a  right  to  vote 
in  the  choice  of  his  pepresentativ&~<4hat  the 
people  of  this  country  are  robbed  of  this 
ri^ht,  and  that  in  consequence  of  this  right 
being  taken  from  them,  tliey  are  robbed  of 
their  money,  and  so  forth,  which  you  will  see 
is  manifestly  suggested  in  .everv  pagie  of  this 
libel ;  then  I  sav  the  advice  to  bear  anns,  as 
the  only  method  to  right  themselves,  id  not 
only  a  libel,  but  one  ofthe  worst  kind ;  for  it 
approaches  closely  ta  the  crime  oifhigh  treason 
itself;  since  I  am  bold  to  state  ava  lawyer, 
that  if  any  man  advises  a  set  of  men  to  bear 
arms,  to  make  an  alteration  in  the  state  and 
government  that  obtains  in  this  country,  and 
shall  so  far  sMoceed  as  to  persuade  thes^  W^ 


«S9] 


fart  S^ituuf  1,-iM. 


A.  D.  1763. 


[8W 


to  take  arms  and  banners,  declaring  that  such 
is  their  obiedt,  both  he  and  they,  in  point  of 
law,  as  it  has  been  solemnly  determined,  are 
guilty  of  the  crime  of  hi^h  treason. 

Gentlemen,  if  therewre  the  tendency  of 
this  Dialogue,  be  in  any  degree  to  persuade 
oien  to  put  themselves  in  a  condition  which 
leads  to  that,  it  not  only  is  a  libel,  but  a  libel 
of  the  greatest  magnitude. — ^I  know  not  how 
thb  case  is  to  be  treated  on  the  part  :of  the 
detiendant;  it  is,  as  I  have  said,  a  cause  of 
warmth,  and  of  expectation — I  know  my 
learned  friend's  abilities—*!  know  his  warmth: 
every  thing  tliat  can  by  any  possibility  be 
said  to  catch  your  favour,  for  nis  client,  or 
that  will  have  the  appearance  of  argument, 
you  will  hear  ur£;ed,  i  doubt  not,  with  the  ut- 
most ability.  VS^ith  regard  to  myself,  I  have 
only  this  to  say,  I  knew  not  of  this  prosecu- 
tion—I knew  nothing  of  the  prosecutor,  but 
in  the  shape  of  a  client,  putting  a  brief  into 
my  hands,  to  prosecute  a  person  charged 
tnth  a  public  ofience ;  and  it  is  my  duty  to 
doit.- 

Gentlemen,  I  will  go  the  length  to  say, 
and  I  do  not  believe  that  I  do  the  prosecutor 
any  harm  when  I  say  it,  because  he  has  a 
ri^t  to  enjoy  his  own  opinion,  if  I  had' been 
meed  the  question,  whether  I  would  advise 
such  a  prosecution,  I  should  have  had  no  dif- 
ficulty at  once  to  say,  it  is  not  prudent— But 
if  I  had  been  asked  the  cjuestion  as  a  lawyer 
— fo  this  a  crune  ? — ^Is  this  a  libel  ? — ^I  charge 
you,  Sir,  tell  me  as  a  professor  of  the  law, 
what  is  your  opinion  ? — ^I  declare  upon  my 
honour,  that  I  should  have  felt  mvself  forced 
to  declare,  and  I  should  have  declared,  as  far 
as  my  poor  simple  authority  goes,  that  I  not 
only  thmk  it  a  libel,  but  I  think  it  a  most 
enormous,  and  a  most  mischievous  libel. 

Gentlemen,  I  sliould  have  thus  reasoned ; 
I. should  have  said,  either  this  publication  has 
no  meaning  at  all — and  that  nobodv  would 
think,  considering  the  learned  publisher  of  it 
:— or  it  has  a  very  wicked  and  a  bad  mean- 
ing ;  it  has  that  meaning  which  makes  it  a 
lil^,  that  is  to  say,  it  means  to  reAect  upon 
the  king's  government,  to  excite  sedition  and 
discontent  among  the  people;  it  is  impossi- 
ble for  any  body  to  reao  it,  but  they  must  see 
that  the  subject  matter  really  aimed  at,  and 
in  many  parts  spoken  of  in  plain  terms,  are 
the  king  and  his  government. 

Gentlemen,  upon  these  occasions  it  is  not 
untirequent — and  my  .friend  will  do  every 
thing,  I  dare  say,  on  the  other  side — to  enter 
into  questions  about  the  province  of  the  jury. 
You  will  be  directed  by  an  auiho.rity  ntttch 
higher  than  muie,  but  I  will  venture  to  sug- 
gest, under  the  correction  of  tliat  authority, 
which  I  am  sure  I  shall  obey  implicitly,  that 
the  law  of  libels  with  reelect  to  a  jury  is  this 
— ii  the  words  want  explanation,  and  a  okead- 
ing  is  given  to  them  by  an  averment  in  t^e 
record,  saving  that  these  words,  naming 
them  whicn  you  find  in  the  Jibel,  have  this 
439*  that  meamng,  it  is  the  •incontestible  pro- 


vince of  the juiy— it  is  a  nrovince  thsd  opbo^ 
ought  to  invade,  to  decide  whether  they  have 
that  meaning — aye  or  no-^^md  I  believe  it 
never  yet  was  attempted  by  any  judge  to  rob 
them  of  that  juiisdiction.  Another  thing  is 
necessarv — the  jury  are  to  decide,  whelaer 
the  nfhole  publication  is  concerning  the  mat* 
ter  and  sunject  that  it  is  averred  to  concent 
and  relate  to. — Now  in  this  prosecution  the 
libel  is  stated  at  length,  it  wants  no  explansi- 
tiop,  except  for  form,  that  G.  is  for  Gentler 
man,  and  F.  for  Farmer.  aU  through  the  bia^ 
logue. — But  it  is  averred  that  this  libel  is  pub- 
lished of,  and  concerning,  our  said  lorn  the 
king,  and  the  government  of  this  realm.^^ 
Now  I  am  free  to  admit,  as  I  really  beUeve» 
in  my  poor  judgpaent,  that  it  is  the  busineae 
of  a  jury  to  decide,  whether  this  libel  means 
to  treat  of,  or  to  point  at^  and  to  make  the 
subject  of  its  discussion,  our  said  lord  the 
king,  and  the  government  of  tbis  realm.-«r 
That  you  are  to  decide  uoon. 

Gentlemen,  ^  word  aoout  that  expression 
— the  legal  term  always  about  the  govemr 
ment,  jis  *  of  and  concerning  the  king  and  his 
government;'  for  the  government  of  this 
country,  the  executive  part  of  it,  b  undoubt;- 
edly  in  the  king.  It  is  conoeived,  and  the 
language  of  the  law  always  is,  that  if  there 
be  any  libel  published,  touching  the.  govern- 
ment of  this  kingdom,  as  it  is  carried  on  by 
parliament,  and  in  oUier  shafies — ^I  say  tha| 
m  point  of  law,  that  is  a  discourse  touchinjg 
the  king  and  his  government,  because  he  is 
considered  as. part  of  the  government,  and 
the  head  of  it :  therefore  when  the  phrase  i% 
made  use  of  here,  touching  the  king  and  the 
government  of  tins  realm ;  if  wu  shoukl  he 
satisfied^  upoiB  reading  this  libel,  that  it  is 
cencerau^  the  government,  it  follows  of 
course  that  it  is  concemii^  the  king  end 
his  government. 

Gentlemen,  I  huBoibly  ceoeeive  that  this, 
therefore,  is  «dl  that  you  ha¥e  to  do  upon  the 

S resent  occasion — to  cansider  whetner  the 
efen^mt  published  this  coocermng  the  go*- 
vernment  of  this  kingdom.  I  know  not  your 
connections,  your  wishes,  or  your  party ;  but 
I  am  confident,  sitting  where  vou  do,  in  the 
character  of  jurymen,  you  will  lay  aside  all 
general  opinions,  and  all  inclinations  what- 
ever. You  will  not  consider  who  is  the  pro- 
secutor— ^you  will  not  consider  who  is  the  de- 
fendant— ^you  will  not  consider  where  this 
prosecution  'first  opiginated — ^you  will  not 
consider,  though  I  oare  say  we  shall  hear  a 
zreat  deal  about  it,  how  it  happens  not  to 
nave  been  tried  before :  but  you  will  exercise 
your  judgment  on  that  which  alone  you  are  to 
try ;  namely,  Whether  the  defendant  is,  or  is 
not,  guilty  of  this  charge,  upon  the  evidence 
that  will  be  laid  before  you. 

Gentlemen,  I  beg  your  pardon;  I  have  by 
accident  taken  up  more  of  your  time  than  I 
intended — I  shall  leave  the  case  with  you,  in 
confidence  that  you  will  treat  it  as  men  of 
sense,  ^  men  oi'  honour,  Jhaving  cegaid  §ot 


891] 


18  GEORGE  III.     Proceedings  agamet  the  Dean  of  St.  Asaph^     [89f 


yoor  oaths ;  and  I  doubt'not.  that  when  this 
Dialogue  comes  to  be  read  at  leDgth,  it  will  be. 
impossible  for  you  not  to  see  much  more  than 
is  necessary  to  prove  the  defendant  guilty, 
and  consequently  to  make  it  vour  indispensi- 
ble  duty  to  pronounce  him  so  by  your  verdict. 
In  so  doing)  you  subject  him  to  that  which 
the  subjects  of  this  kingdom  are  all  liable  to 
in  cases  of  misdemeanor;  the  discretionary 
judgment  of  the  superior  court  of  criminal  law 
of  3iis  country.  Tnat  discretion  will  be  ex- 
ercised according  to  the  circumstances, 
^hen  a  party  is  convicted,  he  has  a  ri^ht  to 
apply  to  that  court,  and  to  say,  this  that  is 
stated  upon  this  indictment,  in  point  of  law, 
is  not  a  libel :  if  so,  he  has  the  benefit  of  it. 
If  there  is  no  ground  for  that,  he  has  a  right 
to  apply  upon  any  circumstances  that  so  to  a 
mitigation  of  his  offence ;  and  it  certainly  will 
be  considered  in'the  discretion  of  the  judges 
of  that  court. 

I  shall  call  the  witnesses.  You  will  give 
your  particular  attention  to  the  publication 
undouDtedly  before  you  decide  this  question ; 

?ou  will  look  at  it,  and  read  it  by  yourselves, 
f  upon  so  readins  you  should  be  of  opinion 
it  is  touching  and  concerning  the  king  and 
his  government,  and  that  the  defendant  pub- 
lished ity  your  verdict  will  find  the  defendant 
guilty. 

Gentlemen,  I  know  not  whether  I  shall 
have  the  opportunity  of  again  addressing  vou 
— that  depends  upon  the  course  that  will  be 
taken  in  ttiis  defence  by  the  counsel  on  the 
other  side^I  shall  not  wantonly  insist  upon 
that  right  which  I  am  of  opinion  at  this  day 
exists,  if  a  prosecutor  chooses  to  make  use 
of  it.  •  If  I  find  myself  called  upon  by  any 
arguments  that  are  perfectly  new,  and  that 
are  not  to  be  consiciered  as  an  answer  to 
this  charge,  then  I  shall  feel  myself  called 
upon  to  say  what  I  think  I  ought  upon  that 
occasion;  at  present,  however,  I  sit  down, 
hoping  at  least  that  I  have  got  thus  fitr — ^that 
you  understand  what  it  is  you  are  to  decide 
upon ;  and  then  I  am  coondent  you  will  de- 
termine as  you  ought. 


Evidence  for  the  Prosecution. 
The  Rev.  Mr.  Edwards  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Cowper. 

You  are  acquainted  with  Mr.  Shipley  ? — 
Yes,  I  am. 

look  at  that  pamphlet ;  whose  hand-writ- 
ing are  those  words^  G*entleinan  and  Farmer^? 
— rhe  dean^s. 

Have  you  seen  that  pamphlet  before? — 
Yes,  1  have. 

I  mean  that  identical  pamphlet? — I  have. 

From  whom  did  you  receive  it? — From  the 
dean  of  St.  Asaph. 

What  request  did  he  make  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Erskine,  If  it  was  in  writing,  you  must 
not  speak  to  it,  but  produce  the  letter. 


Mr.  Edwards  produced  the  Letter. 

There  is  no  date  of  the  year;  when  did  you 
receive  it  ?— In  1783. 

The  Letter  was  read,  dated  January  the  24th« 

<<  Dear  Edwards,  I  will  trouble  you  to  get 
an  cxiition  of  the  inclosed  Dialogue  printed 
by  Marsh,  as  soon  as  possible,  with  tne  foU 
lowing  Advertisement  annexed  to  it. — He 
may  put  a  price  of  two-pence  or  three-pence^ 

to  bear  expences. 1  shall  advertise  it  in 

the  Chester  paper  on  Tuesday,  so  I  hope  it 
will  be  printed  by  that  day.    Yours, 

"William  Davies  Shipley.'* 

"  Advertisement,  to  be  put  at  the  beginnings 

**  A  short  defence  hath  been  thought  ne- 
cessary, against  a  violent  and  groundless  at* 
tack  upon  the  Flintshire  Committee,  for  hav* 
ing  testified  th^ir  approbation  of  the  follow- 
ing Dialogue,  which  hath  been  publicly 
branded  with  the  most  ii\)urious  epithets; 
and  it  is  conceived,  that  the  sure  way  to  vin- 
dicate this  littie  tract  from  so  unjust  a  cha- 
racter will  be  as  publicly  to  produce  it. • 

The  friends  of  the  Revolution  will  instantly 
see,  that  it  contsuns  no  principle  which  has 
not  the  support  of  the  highest  authori^*,  as 
well  as  the  clearest  reason. 

"  If  the  doctrines  which  it  slightlv  touches^ 
in  a  manner  suited  to  the  nature  of  the  Dia- 
logue, be '  seditious,  treasonable,  and  diaboli- 
caTj'  lord  Somers  was  an  incendiary,  Locke  a 
traitor,  and  the  Convention-parliament  a 
Pandemonium ;  but,  if  those  names  are  the 
glory  and  boast  of  Eneland,  and  if  that  con- 
vention secured  our  Imerty  and  happiness, 
then  the  doctrines  in  question  are  not  only 
just  and  rational,  but  constitutional  and  salu- 
tary: and  the  reproachful  epithets  belong 
wholly  to  the  system  of  those^  who  so  grossly 
misapplied  them." 

Mr.  Cowper.  Did  you  deliver  that  pamph- 
let, accordmg  to  the  request  containea  in  the 
dean  of  St.  Asaph's  letter,  to  Mr.  Marsh  ? 

Mr.  Edwards.    I  did. 

John  Marsh  caUed-— (he  demanded  his  ex- 
pences, which  Mr.  William  Jones,  the  prose- 
secutor,  undertook  to  pay.) 

John  Marsh  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Leycuttr, 

Look  at  that  pamphlet;  did  you  ever  see  it 
before  ? — Yes. 

Who  delivered  it  to  you  ? — It  was  delivered 
to  me  by  my  father ;  I  was  out  at  the  time  it 
was  delivered. 

What  is  vour  father's  name  ? — ^Ricbard. 

Do  YOU  know  where  this  (the  original)  wa5 
printed  ? — ^I  cannot  tell  that. 

Do  you  know  where  this  other  copy  was 
printed  ? — It  was  printed  at  our  office. 

Was  it  printed  from  this  ? — ^Yes;  I  believe, 
from  that  very  copy. 

Did  you  ever  see  the  dean  of  St  Asaph  af( 


805] 


Jbt  a  SediHaiu  Lihd. 


A.  D.  1788. 


[8M 


terwaxds  upon  the  subject,  while  the  piinlmg  | 
was  going  on  ? — I  had  struck  off  some  before  | 
I  saw  the  dean. 

Did  you  see  the  dean  afterwards  ? — ^Yes. 

What  passed  ? — I  saw  the  dean  at  Mr.  Ed- 
wards's, and  related  to  him  what  happened, 
mA  that  Mr.  Jones  came  to  buy  some  of  the 
pamphlets,  and  nut  down  mine  and  my  fa- 
ther's name,  the  aean  seemed  quite  surprised 
that  any  thing  of  that  kind  should  pass. 

Did  the  dean  ever  say  any  thing  to  you 
about  the  printing  of  it  ? — ^Not  before,  for  I 
liad  never  seen  bun. 

But  afterwards  ? — ^What  reason  had  he  to- 
ask  me  ? 

But  what  did  he  say? — He  said  nothing, 
but  only  appeared  quite  surprised  that  any 
disturbaSice  should  be  made  about  it,  about 
Mr.  Jones's  coming  to  the  shop.  • 

Did  he  ever  say  any  thing  to  you  about 
printing  and  dispersing  or  selling  them? — 
Mr.  Ec^ards  tola  me  that. 

Was  the  dean  there  ? — ^No. 

Mr.  Ertkine.  You  are  in  possession  of 
that,  from  the  letter  of  the  dean.  I  do  not 
mean  to  deiw  a  syllable  of  that. 

Dean  of  St.  Asaph.  I  was  at  St.  Asaph : 
I  never  saw  him  till  the  prosecutor  had  been 
with  him. 

Mr.  William  Janes  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Leifcester, 

Where  di4  you  get  that  naniphlet,  in  your 
hand  ? — I  bought  it  from  Mr.  Marsh,  on  the 
Sth  of  February,  1783. 

He  is  a  boolcseller  at  Wrexham  ? — ^He  is. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Ertkine. 

You  are  the  prosecutor  of  this  indictment  ? 
—I  am. 

Did  you,  or  any  body  for  you,  make  any 
application  to  the  Treasury  for  the  prosecu- 
tion of  this? — ^I  did. 

What  answer  did.  you  receive  flrom  the 
Treasury? — ^There  was  a  written  answer 
given. 

Have  you  got  it  ? — I  have  not. 

What  was  the  substance  of  it?— The  sub- 
stance of  it  was 

Mr.  Bearcrofi.  Should  we  hear  that  an- 
swer, Mr.  Ers^ine  ? 

Mr.  Ertkmt,  In  short,  the  Treasury  would 
not  prosecute ;  so  you  are  now  the  prosecu- 
tor, and  not  the  Treasury  ? — A,  I  am  the 
prosecutor,  and  not  the  Treasury. 

Because  they  refbsed  to  do  it  ? — They  did 
not  do  it ;  it  was  not  an  absolute  refusal. 

Mr.  Bearcrqft.  What  was  it? — A.  There  was 
an  application  made  by  Mr.  Fitzmaurice,  as 
shennof  thecount}[:  he  had  proceedea  so 
far  in  the  "business  himself,  at  least  I  proceed- 
ed b^  his  direction,  until  he  presented  a  me- 
morial to  the  Treasury ;  and  upon  receiving 
the  answer  from  the  Treasury,  Mr.  Fitzmau- 
rice declined  the  prosecution  himself,  and  I 
have  carried  it  on  mvself  ever  since, 

MT,B€arerqft,   What  was  tb»t  answer  ? 


Mr.  Justice  BuUer.    It  is  not  evidence. 
Mr.  Bearcrqft^   All  I  had  in  view  was,  that 
nothing  might  be  kept  back  from  the  jury. 

[The  Dialogue  read,  as  follows  i]         

PRINCIPLES   OF   GOVERNMENT, 

IN  A   DIALOGUE 

I  BETWEEN 

A  GENTLEMAN  AND  A  FARMER. 

E,  Why  should  humble  men,  like  me^ 
sign  or  set  marks  to  petitions  of  this  nature  \ 
It  is  better  for  us  farmers  to  mind  our  hus- 
bandly, and  leave  what  we  cannot  compre- 
hend to  the  king  and  parliament. 

O.  You  can  comprehend  more  than  jo\i 
imagine ;  and,  as  a  fret  member  of  a  free 
ftateyh&we  higher  things  to  mind  than  you 
may  conceive. 

Jr.    If  by  free  you  mean  out  <f  pri$any  I  - 
hope  to  continue  so,  «s  long  as  I  can  pay  my 
rent  to  the  squire's  bailiff ;  out  what  is  meant 
by  tifree  state  f 

G.  Tell  me  first  what  is  meant  by  a  club 
in  the  village,  of  which  I  know  you  to  be  a 
member. 

F,  It  is  an  assembly  of  men  who  meet 
af^er  work  every  Saturdav  to  be  merry  and 
happy  for  a  few  hours  in  the  week. 

G,  Have  you  no  other  object  but  mirth  ^ 

F.  Yes ;  we  have  a  box,  into  which  we 
contribute  equally  from  our  monthly  or  week- 
ly savings,  and  out  of  which  any  members  of 
the  club  are  to  be  relieved  in  sickness  or  po-  g 
vertv ;  for  the  parish  officers  are  so  cruel  and 
insolent,  that  it  were  better  to  starve  than 
apply  to  them  for  relief. 

G.  Did  they,  or  the  squire,  or  the  parson, 
or  all  together,  compel  you  to  form  this  so- 
cle^? 

E.  Oh !  no— we  could  not  be  compelled ; 
we  formed  it  by  our  own  choice. 

G.  You  did  right — ^But  have  you  not  some 
head  orpresident  of  your  club  ? 

E,  The  master  for  each  night  is  chosen^ 
by  all  the  company  present  the  week  before. 

G.  Does  he  make  laws  to  bind  you  in 
case  of  ill  temper  or  misbehaviour  ? 

F,  He  make  laws !  He  bind  us !  No ;  we 
have  all  agreed  to  a  set  of  equal  rules,  which 
are  signed  by  every  new  comer,  and  were 
written  in  a  strange  hand  by  voung  Spelman, 
the  lawyer's  clerk,  whose  unde  is  a  member. 

G,  What  should  you  do,  if  any  one  mem-  - 
her  were  to  insist  on  oecoming  perpetual  mas- 
ter, and  on  altering  your  rules  at  his  arbitrary 
will  and  pleasure  ? 

E,    We  should  expel  him.^ 
•  G.    What,  if  he  were  to  bring  a  Serjeant's 
guard,  when  the  militia  are  quartered  in  your 
neighbouchood,  and  insist  upon  your  obeying 
him  ? 


/ 


ms] 


2S  OEOIGB  IIL     ProceaUngs  agakui  tie  Dam  qfSi.  Asapk^    [9BS 


F.  We  ihoiild  reast,  if  «e  could ;  if  not, 
the  toael^r  would  be  brdceii  up. 

G.  Suppoeetfaatywith  his  seijeaiit's  guard, 
he  were  to  take  the  money  out  of  the  ho\j  or 
outof  jour  pockets?  « 

F.  Wouldnotthatbearobbeiy? 

G.  I  am  seeking  infimuation  from  tou. 
How  should  Tou  act  on  such  an  occasion? 

F.  We  mould  submit,  perfaapsi,  at  that 
time;  but  should  afterwards  try  to  apprehend 
the  robbers. 

G.  What,  if  you  could  not  apprehend 
them? 

F.  We  m%bt  kiU  tbesi,  I  should  think ; 
and,  if  the  kmg  would  not  pardon  us,  God 
would. 

G.  How  could  you  either  apprehend  them, 
or,  if  they  resisted,  kill  them,  without  a  9uf> 
fioent  force  in  your  own  hands  ? 

J*.  Oh !  we  are  all  good  players  at  nnde- 
atick,  and  each  of  us  has  a  stout  cudg^or 
quarter-staff  in  the  comer  of  hb  room. 

G.  Suppose  that  a  few  of  the  club  were  to 
domineer  over  the  rest,  and  insist  upon  mak- 
ing laws  for  them 

jF.  We  must  take  the  same  course ;  eseept 
thai  it  would  be  easier  to  restrain  one  man, 
than  a  number ;  but  we  should  be  the  mino- 
rity with  justice  on  our  side. 

G.  A  word  or  two  on  another  head.  Some 
of  JWL,  I  presume,  are  no  great  accountants. 

F  Few  of  us  understand  accounts ;  but 
we  trust  old  Lilly  the  school-master,  whom 
we  believe  to  be  an  honest  man;  and  he  keeps 
the  k€y  of  our  box. 

G.  if  your  money  should  in  time  amount 
to  a  large  sum,  it  might  not  perhaps  be  sale 
to  keep  it  at  his  house,  or  in  any  private 
house. 

F.  Where  dse  e^Knild  we  keep  it? 

G.  You>  might  chuse  to  put  it  into  the 
limds,  or  to  lend  it  the  'souire,  who  has  lost 
so  much  lately  at  Ntumarkety  taking  his  bond 
or  some  of  his  fields  as  your  security  for  pay- 
ment with  interest. 

F.  We  must  in  that  case  cmifide  in  young 
Sptlman^  who  will  soon  set  up  ibr  himself 
an^  if  a  lawyer  can  be  honest,  will  be  an 
honest  lawyer. 

G.  What  power  do  you  ^e  to  £c7(y,  or 
should  you  give  to  Spehmn  m  the  case  sup- 
peeed? 

F.  No  power.  We  riwrnld  eive  them  both 
a  due  allowance  for  their  trouMe.  and  should 
expect  a  ftutfaiiil  account  of  all  toey  had  done 
for  OS. 

G.  Henest  men  may  chance  their  naUire. 
What,  i£  both  or  eitlwr  of  them  were  to  de- 
cavreyou? 

,  R  Vesh«ddn«r««thea,  put  our  trust 
is  better  men,  aniA  try  to  repair  our  loss. 

G.  Did  it  never  occur  to  you,  that  every 
state  or  nation  was  only  a  great  club  f 

F.  Nothing  ever  occuned  to  me  on  the 
soBect ;  for  I  never  thought  about  it. 

G.  Though  you  never  thought  before  on 
the  subject,  yet  you  may  be  able  to  tell  me. 


irtiv  you  soppoae  men  to  have  aasemkled,  and 
to  hare  formed  m^kmSf  isi— ■ifki,  or  ifsf a^ 
which  all  mean  the  same  thing. 

F.  In  order,  I  shoukl  imagne,  ta  be  ss 
happy  as  they  can,  while  they  uve. 

G.*  By  Aa jppy  do  you  mean  merry  only  ? 

F.  To  be  as  merry  as  tiiey  can  without 
hurting  themselves  or  their  nei^bours,  bat 
chiefly  to  secure  themselves  fronTdanger,  and 
to  relieve  their  wants. 

G.  Do  you  bdieve,  that  ai^  kii^  or  em- 
peror compelled  them  so  to  associate? 

F.  How  could  one  n^  compel  a  mnl^ 
tude  ?  A  king  or  an  emperor,  I  presume,  b 
not  bom  with  a  hundred  hands. 

G.  WhenanrinoeofthebloodshalliBsiiy 
country  be  so  mstinguished  by  nature,  I  shsu 
then,  and  then  only,  conceive  him  to  be  a 
greater  mai^  than  you.  But  might  not  an 
army,  with  a  king  or  general  at  their  head, 
have  compelled  them  to  assemble? 

F.  Yes;  but  the  army  must  have  beea 
formed  by  their  own  choice.  One  man  or  a 
few  can  never  govern  many  inthout  their 
consent. 

G.  Suppose,  however,  that  a  multitude  of 
men,  assembled  in  a  town  or  city,  were  to 
chuse  a  king  or  governor,  mi^t  they  net  ^ve 
him  t^h  power  and  authority  ? 

F.  '^  be  sure ;  but  thc^  would  never  be 
so  mad,  I  hope,  as  to  give  him  a  power  of 
making  their  laws, 

G.  Who  else  should  make  them  ? 

F.  The  whole  nation  or  people. 

G.  What,  if  they  disagreed  ? 

F.  The  opinion  of  the  greater  mtarftff,  as 
in  our  village-clubs^  must  be  taken  and  pre- 
vail. 

G.  What  could  be  done,  if  Ae  society  were 
so  laree,  that  all  could  not  meet  in  the  same 
placer 

F.  A  sreater  number  must  chuse  a  less. 

G.  Who  should  be  the  chusers  ? 

F.  All,  who  are  not  upon  the  parkh.  In 
our  club,  if  a  man  asks  relief  of  the  overseer, 
he  ceases  to  be  one  of  us,  because  he  must 
depend  on  the  overseer. 

G.  CouM  not  a  lew  men,  one  in  seven  for 
instance,  chuse  the  assembly  of  law-inakei3 
as  weU  as  a  larger  number?    - 

F.  As  conveniently,  perhaps ;  but  I  wooM 
not  suffer  any  man  to  chuse  another,  who 
waste  make  laws,  by  which  my  money  or 
my  life  might  be  taken  from  me. 

G.  Have  you  a,  freehold  in  any  county,  of 
for^  filings  a  year  ? 

F.  I  have  nothing  in  the  world  but  my 
cattle,  implements  of  husbandry,  and  hops- 
hold  goods,  togcrtier  with  my  fiirm,  for  which 

I  pay  a  ixed  rent  to  the  'squire. 

G.  HaveyouavoteinMiyci^OTboroaghr 

F.  I  have  no  vote  at  all ;  but  am  able  hr 
my  honest  labour  to  support  mv  wife  an4 
four  children ;  and,  whilst  I  act  honestly,  I 
diay  defy  the  laws. 

6.  Can  you  be  ignorant,  that  the  pay- 
ment, to  which  members  are  sent  hj  tlus 


897] 


for  a  Seditious  LiM. 


A.  D.  1783. 


[898 


csouoty^  and  by  the  next  markeWown,  have 
power  to  luake  new  laws,  by  whkh  yoa  and 
your  family  may  be  strimied  of  your  goods, 
thrown  into  prison,  and  even  deprived  of 
Ufe? 

)  F,  A  dreadful  |>9wer ! :  I  never  made  in- 
({uiries^  having  business  of  my  own,  concern- 
ing the  business  of  parliament,  but  imagined, 
that  the  laws  had  been  fixed  ror  many  huii- 
dred  years. 

G,  The  common  laws,  to  which  you  refer, 
are  equal,  just,  and  humane ;  but  the  king 
and  parliament  may  alter  them,  when  they 
please.  • 

.  F,  The  king  ought  therefore  to  be  a  good 
man,  and  the  paruament  to  consist  of  men 
equallygood.  -    i 

G.  The  king  alone  can  do  no  hann ;  but 
who  must  judge  the  gGk>dne8s  of  parliament- 
men? 

F.  All  those  whose  {MDpertv,  freedom,  and 
lives  may  be  affiscted  by  their  laws. 

G.  Yet  six  men  in  seven,. who  inhabit  this 
kiii^om,  have,  like  you,  no  votes ;  and  the 
petition  which  I  desired  you  to  sign,  has  no- 
thing for  its  object,  but  the  restoration  of  you 
all  to  the  right  of  chusing  those  law-makers 
by  whom  your  money  or  your  lives  may  be 
taken  from  you.  Attend,  while  I  read  it  dis- 
tinctly. 

.  F.  Give  me  your  pen — I  never^  wrote  my 
name,  ill  as  it  may  be  written,  with  greater 


.  G,  lapnkuid  you,  and  trust,  that  your  ex- 
ample will  be  followed  by  millions.  Ano* 
ther  word  before,  we  part.  Recollect  your 
opinion  about  your  club  iA  the  village,  and 
tell  me  what  ought  to  be  the  consequence,  if 
the  king  alone  were  to  insist  on  malung  laws, 
or  on  altering  them  at  his  will  and  pleasure. 

1*.  He  too  must  be  expelled. 
.   G«  Oh !  but  think  of^  his  standing  armv, 
and  of  the  militia,  which  now  are  his  in  sub- 
stance, though  ours  inform. 

F.  Jf  he  were  to  emnloy  that  force  against 
the  nation,. they  would  and  ousht  to  resist 
him,  or  the  state  would  cease  to  oe  a  state. 

.  G.  What,  if  the  great  accountants  and 
great  lawyers,  the  Xt%«  and  Spebnaniy  of  the 
nation  were  to  abuse  their  trust,  and  pruelly 
ii)jure,  instead  of  faithfully  serving,  the  public  ? 
Jf.  We  must  request  the  king  to  remove 
them,  and  make  trial  of  others,  but  none 
should  implicitly  be  trusted. 

G.  But  what,  if  a  few  great  lords  or  w^lthy 
jnen  were  to  keen  the  ung  himself  in  sub- 
jection^ yet  exert  iiis  force,  lavish  his  treasure, 
and.  misuse  his  name,  so  as  to  domin^r  over 
tbepeople  and  manage  the  parliament  ? , 

,  Fi  We  must  fight  for  tne  king- and  our- 
selves. 

G.  You  talk  of  fighting,  as  if  you  were 
sp^Jcins  of  some  rustic  engagement  at  a 
wake:  but  your  quarter-sta&  would  avail 
you  little  agamst  bayonets. 

F,  We  might  ealily  providci  ourselves  with 
better  arms. 

VOL.  X$i. 


G.  Not  so  easily ;  when  the  moment  of 
resistance  came,  you  would  be  deprived  of  all 
arms ;  and  those  who  should  tiirQish  you 
with  them,  or  exhort  you  to  take  them  up, 
would  be  called  traitors,  and  probably  put  to 
death. 

F.  We  ousht  alw^iys,  therefore,  to  be  ready; 
and  keep  each  of  us  a  strong  firelock  in  the 
comer  of  his  bed-room. 

G.  That  would  be  le^  as  well  as  rational. 
Are  you,  my  honest  friend,  provided  with  a 
musket? 

.F.  I  will  contribute  no  more  to  the  club, 
and  purchase  a  firelock  with  my  savings. 

G.  It  is  not  necessary— I  have  two,  and 
will  make  you  a  present  of  one  with  complete 
accoutrements. 

F.  I  accept  it  thankfully,  and  will  converse 
with  you  at  your  leisure  on  other  subjects  of 
this  kind. 

Gi  In  the  mean  while,  spend  an  hour  every 
morning  in  the  next  fortnight  in  learning  to 
prime  and  lo^d  expeditiou»y,  and  to  fire  and 
charge  with  bayonet  firmly  and  regularly.  I 
say  every  morning ;  because,  if  you  exercise 
too  late  in  the  eveningy  you  may  fall  into  some 
of  the  legal  snares,  which  have  been  spread 
for  you  by  Ui9se  gentlemen,  wl»)  would  ra^ 
ther  secure  game  for  their  table,  than  liberty 
for  the  natk>n. 

.  F.  Some  of  my  neighbours, .  who  have 
served  in  the  militia^  will  readily  teach  me ; 
and  perhaps,  the  whole  village  may  be  per- 
suaded to  procure  arms,  and  learn  their  ex- 
ercise. 

G.  It  cannot  be  expected,  that  the  villagers 
should  purchase  arms ;  but  they  might  easily 
be  supplied,  if  the  gentry  of  the  nation  would 
spare  a  little  from  Sieir  vices  and  luxury. 

F.  May  they  turn  to  some  sense  of  honour 
and  virtue ! 

G.  Farewell,  at  present;  and  remember, 
'*  that  a  free  state  is  only  a  more  numerous 
and  more  powerful  club,  and  that  he  only  is 
a  free  man,  who  is^  member  of  sudi  a  state.''  ' 
■  F,  Good  momingy  Sir  I  You  have  made 
me  wiser  and  better  than  I  was  vesterday; 
and  yet,  methiuks,  I  had  some  knowledge 
in  my  own  mind  of  this  great  subject^  and ' 
have  been  a  politician  all  my  life  wiihout 
perceiving  it. 

End  of  the  Evidence  for  the  Proiecution. 

The  Hon.  Thmat  Erskine : 

Gentlemen  of  the  Jury;  My  learned 
and  respectable  friend,  (for  such  upon  this 
as  upQn  all  other  occasions  he  has  approved 
himself)  haying  informed  the  Court  tiiat  he 
means  to  call  no  other  witnesses  to  support 
the  pro^cution,,you  are  now  in  possession  of 
the  whole  of  the  evidence,  on  wnich  the  pit>->  . 
secutor  has  ventured,  to  charge  my  reverend 
cUent,  the  dean  of  $t.  Asaph,  with  a  seditious 
purpose  to  excite  disloyalty  and  disaffection 
to  the  person  of.  his  king,  and  an  armed  re- 
bellioa  against  the  state  and  constitution  of 
'   3  M  ^    '         ' 


to  It, 

aUsedi- 

(t%   t»y  yittiK^nty^  tikitfcii^  wliidi  I  feel 
.    wx^NjuK  H»  ttifee  joi  — li  wirnt  an  accu- 
>,..«.««,   >  ti  3%:  40tif  i»  repress  the  feeline  ek- 
.  xv*   kv  «&^  -tnlv  shI  iBJiBtice,  wiUiin  uiose 
)w«MiM^  >«*iw]b  mwr  leave  my  faculties  thdr 
taMt^.Hi  4Uii  maAwdcd  operation;  for  I  so- 
eAU4u>  J^dbre-  i»  joOy  thai  if  be  had  been  in- 
,u<.«tu  .ts;^  itbdfer  of  our  holy  religion,  only 
*fn  ituflHhffiMig  that  the  world  was  made  by 
)lb.  .almighty  Author,  my  astonishment  couM' 
uMi  Ottv^heen  greater  than  it  is  at  this  mo* 
iMNii;  t»  «e  the  little  book,  which  I  hold  in 
u^  ^uMi,  presented  bv  a  grand,  jury  of  £ng- 
h^h  sudfck^ts,  as  a  libel  upon  the  government 
g#*fi&g«m — ^Every  sentiment  cdnUuned  in 
il  (if  the  interpretations  of  words  are  to  be' 
satDed,  not  according  to  fancy,  but  by  the 
common  rules  of  lanniage^  is  to  be  found  in 
the  brightest  pages  of  English  Uterature,  and 
m  the  most  sacrad  volumes  of  English  laws : 
if  any  one  sentence  from  the  beginning  to 
the  end  of  it  be  seditious  or  libelous,  the 
Bill  of  Rights  (to  use  the  language  of  the  ad- 
vertisement prefixed  to  it)  was  a  seditious 
Hbel  ;-^tbe  RevoUition*  Wad  a  wicked  rebel- 
lion;— ^the  existing  government  is  a  traitorous 
conspiracy  against  tne  hereditary  monarchy 
of  England; — and  our  gracious  sovere^, 
•  whose  title,  I  am  persuaoed,  we  are  all  ofus 
prepared  to  defend  with  our  blood,  is  an 
usurper  of  the  crown  of  these  kingdoms. 

That  all  these  absurd,  preposterous,  and 
treasonable  conclunons,  follow  necessarily 
and  unavoidably  from  a  conclusion  upon  this 
«PMf<fictf,— that  this  Dialogue  is  a  libel,— fol- 
lowing the  ettfmnle  of  my  learned  friend, 
who  has  pledged  Air  personal  veracity  in  sup-' 
port  of  his  sentiments,  I  assert,  upon  my  ho- 
n(^ur,  to  be  my  unaltered,  and  I  believe  I 
may  say,  unalterable  opinion,  formed  upon 
the  most  mattffe  .deliberation ;  and  I  choose 
to  place  that  opinion  in  the  very  front  of  my 
address  to  you,  that  you  may  not,  in  Uie 
course  of  it,  mistake  the  enemes  of  truth 
and  freedom  for  the  zeal  of^  professional 
duty.  ,.  .         . 

This  declaration  of  my  own  sentiments, 
even  if  my  friend  had  not  set  me.  the  exam- 
ple bv  givmg  you  his,  I  should  have  consi- 
dered to  be  my  duty  in  this  cause;  for  al- 
though in  ordinary  cases,  where  the  private 
right  of  the  party  accused  is  sdone  in  discu»- 
aion,  tod  no  jgeneral  conseqtiences  can  follow 
from  the  decision,  the  advocate  and  the  pri- 
vate man  ought  in  sound  discretion  to  be 
kept  asunder ;  yet  there  are  occasions,  when 
Mch  separation  would  be  treachery  and 
meanness. — In  a  case  where  the  <Marest 
riffhts  of  society  are  involved  in  the  resistiince 
of  a  prosecution,— where  the  party  accused  is 
(as  in  this  instance)  but  a  merename^— 'where 


/ 


AMfledSnifr  t^riaU  the  Btmn  of  St.  Asaph,    [900 


the  whole  connranity  is  wounded  through 
his  ttdea, — Midwhere  the  convic^ionof  the  pn< 
vale  individual  is  the  sofoversbn  or  sunender 
of  public  priviiegeB,  the  advocate  has  a  more 
extensive  charge  :•— the  duty  of  the  patriot 
citizen  then  mixes  itsdf  wltn  bis  oblintion 
to  his  client,  and  he  diamoes  htmselfTaslio- 
noors  his  ptxyfession,  ana  betrays  his  country, 
if  he  does  not  step  forth  in  his  penoatl  cm- 
racier,  and  vindicate  the  rights  of  all  bis  fel- 
low citizens,  whidi  are  attacked  through  the 
medium  of  the  man  he  is  defendinj^.*  Gtt^ 
Uemen,  t  do  not  mdm  to  ^bMk  mm  tkt 
responsibility  upon  this  occasion;  I  desire  tot 
be  considered  tise  fettow  ctiminal  of  the  de- 
fendant, if  by  youl-  verdict  he  sheold  be 
foimd  one,  by  publishing  in  advised  speskiti^ 
(which  is  subsUmtiidly  equal  in  ftuilt  to  the 
publication  that  he  is  ^ccu^ed  of  oefore  you); 
my  hearty  approbation  of  every  sentiment 
contained  in  this  little  book ;  promising  here^ 
in  the  face  of  the  world,  to  publish  tbon 
upon  every  suitable  occasion,  amongst  tbat 
part  of  the  community  within  the  reach  of 
my  precept,  inBuenoe,  and  example.  If  there 
be  any  more  prosecutors  of  this  denomiiii- 
tion  abread  among  us,  thev  know  how  K> 
take  advantage  of  these  decuralions.^ 

Gentlemen,  ^hen  I  reflect  upon  the  dsnnr 
which  has  often  attended  the  liberty  of  ttie 
press  in  fbrmer  times,  from  the  aibitraiy  pro- 
ceedings of  abject,  unprincipled,  and 
dent  judges,  raised  to  their  situations  without 
abilities  or  worth,  in  prafionibtt  to  th«r  ser- 
vility to  power,  I  oannot  help  congratulating 
the  pidnhc  that  you  are  t(»  try  this  indidgaent 
with  the  assistance  of  the  (earned  judge  be- 
fore }[ou; — much  too  instructed  in  the  laws 
of  this  land  to  mislead  you  by  mistake,  snd 
too  conscientious  to  misinstruct  you  by  de 
sign. 

The  days  Indeed  I  hope  are  now  past,  when 
judges  and  jurymen  uoon  state  trials,  were 
constantly  pulline  in  different  direetioDs;  the 
Court  endeavourmg  to  annlhileie  altogether 
the  profvinca  of  the  jury,  and  the  jwy  in  re- 
turn fistening  with  disgust,  jealousy,  snd 
alienation,  to  the  directions  of  the  Court— 
Now  they  may  be  expected  to  be  tried  with 
that  harmony  wluoh  is  the  beautv.  of  our 
legal  constitution  :-*the  jury  nreserving  their 
indenendence  in  judging  or  the  intention, 
whKh  is  the  essence  of  every  crime :  but 
liaftenins  to  the  opinion  of  we  judjje  upon 
Ifaie  evidence,  and  upon  the  law,  with  tbst 
respect  and  litlention,  which  dignity,  lesm- 
ing,  and  hottest  intention  in  a  ma^stisle 
must  and  ought  always  to  carry  along  with 
them* 

Having  received  my  earliest  informatioii  in 
my  profession  from  the  learped  judge  him^ 


*  "  It  will  be  Men  iMmfler,  that  nkea  tk  Dift- 
logae  WM  brodglit  before  the  Court,  by  Mr.  B'^l^ 
motion  to  «rrett  the  jodgneat,  the  Cottrt  wu  oblige 
to  declare  that  it  eontalned  no  ilkgal  matler.*'  Vn^ 
of  tho  Bdilor  of  '<  JBnkiae^  Sf^tSkn.*' 


Ml] 


far  &  Sidiiiaui  LUeL 


A.D.  178S; 


r9oa 


•elfy*  and  having  daily  occaoioo  to  observe 
his  able  administotion  of  justice,  ^ou  may 
helieve  that  I  antiek|iale  nothing  from  the 
iNtnchunfiivourabletoiiuMicence;  and  I  have 
•sperienced  his  remrd  in  too  many  instancee, 
not  ,to  be  sure  of  every  indidgence  that  is 
peraonal  to  myaeif. 

These  consideraiiona  enable  me  with  more 
fireedom  to  make  my  address  to  you  upon  the 
merits  of  this  prosecutioiiy  in  the  issue  of 
which  your  owu  graeral  rights,  as  members 
of  a  free  state,  ase  not*  less  involvedy  than 
the  private  rights  of  the  individual  I  am  de- 
fendmg. 

Gentlemen,  my  reverend  friend  stands  be* 
foce  you  under  circumstances  new  and  extra- 
crdmaiy, and  I  might  add,  harsh  and  cruel; 
be  is  not  to  be  tried  in  the  forum  where  ke 
Ijsrs,  according  to  the  wise  and  just  provisions 
of  our  ancient  laws ; — he  is  not  tb  be  tried 
liy  the  vicinage,  who,  from  their  Imowledge  of 
general  character  and  conduct,  were  heM  by 
our  wise  and  humane  ancestors  to  be  the  fit- 
test,  or  ratherthe  only  judges  in  criminal  cases : 
•«-hfi  haa  been  deprived  of  that  privilege  by 
the  arts  of  the  prosecutor,  and  b  called  before 
jiMi.  who  live  in  tmather  part  of  the  country, 
ana  who,  except  by  vague  reputation,  are 
utter  strangers  to  him. 

But  the  prosecution  itself,  abandoned  by 
the  public,  and  left,  as  you  cannot  but  know 
it  ia^  in  the  hands  of  an  individual,  is  a  cir- 
cumstance not  less  extraordinary  and  unjust, 
T-udless  as  it  palpably  refutes  the  truth  of 
the  aocu^ation.— For,  if  this  little  book  be  a 
^bel  at  all.  it  is  a  libel  upon  the  Uate  and  con- 
ftiMton  9f  the  mrfum,  and  not  upon  any  per- 
son under  the  protection  of  its  laws:  it  attacks 
the  chaiBcier  of  no  nun  in  tUs  or  any  other 
country ;  and  therefore  no  man  is  in^^MdualUf 
at  perimaUy  injured  or  offended  by  it.  If  it 
contain  matter  dangerous  or  offensive,  the 
eiate  almu  can  be  endiu^fered  or  offended. 

And  are  we  then  reduced  to  that  miserable 
condition  in  this  country,  that,  if  discontent 
and  sedition  be  publicly  excitinj;  amongst  the 
peopl^  the  charee  of  suppressmtt  it  d^olves 
upon  Mr.  Jones  r  My  learned  mend,  if  he 
woidd  have  vou  believe  that  the  Dialogue  is 
seditious  and  dangerous,  must  be  driven  to 
acknowled^  that  government  has  grossly 
«egleeted  its  tnist;  for  if^  as  he  says,  it  has 
an  evident  tendenc^  in  critical  times  to  stir 
tip  aknning  commotions,  and  to  procure  a 
fftform  in  Xnt  representation  of  the  people,  by 
violence  and  force  of  arms ; — and  if,  as  he 
likewise  savs,  a  public  prosecution  is  a  pro* 
ceeding  calculated  to  prevent  these  probable 
consequences ;  what  excuse  is  he  prepared  to 
make  for  the  government,  v^icfa^  when,  ac- 
eor^ttng  to  the  evidence  of  his  own  witness,  an 
application  was  made  to  it  for  that  express 
fuipose,  positively,  and  on  d^beration,  re- 

*  Mr.  Enkine  w»«  for  aome  time  oae  of  the  Judge's 
papflf  u  s  ipedtl  pletder,  before  be  was  nind  to 
MM  benoBL 


fused  to  prosecute  ^--What  will  he  Say  for 
one  leanied  eentleman,*  who  dead  is  la-» 
me»te^  i^id  lor  another,f  who  Uvinx  is  ho* 
noured  by  the  v^MpW  profession;  both  of 
whom,  on  the  appearance  of  this  Diakigue, 
were  eharged^ilh  the  duty  of  prosecuting  all 
offenders  against  tho  state,  yet  who  not  only 
read  it  da^  after  day  in  pamphlets  and  news- 

Cpers,  without  stirrinff  aninst  the  publishers. 
It  who^  on  receiving  It  from  the  lords  of  the 
treasury  by  official  reference,  opposed  a  pro- 
secution at  the  national  expence  ?— What  will 
he  say  of  the  successors  of  those  genUemen, 
who  hold  their  offices  at  this  hour,  and  who 
have  ratified  the  opinions  of  their  predeces- 
sors by  their  own  conduct  ? — ^Aod  what,  lastiy, 
will  he  say  in  vindication  of  nuyesty  itself,  to 
my  k90wled||;e  not  unacquainted  with  the 
subject,  yet  from  whence  no  oiders  issued  to 
the  infenor  servants  of  the  state  ? 

So  that,  after  Mr.  Fitzmaurice^  representing 
this  Dialogue  as  big  with  ruin  to  the  public^ 
has  been  laughed  at  by  the  king's  ministers 
at  the  treasuiy;— by  the  king  himself  of 
whom  he  had  an  audience; — and  by  those 
appointed  by  his  wisdom  to  conduct  all  pro- 
secutions ;  you  are  called  upon  to  believe  that 
it  is  a  libel^angerous  and  destructive; — and 
that  while  the  state,  neglected  by  those  who 
are  chaiged  with  its  preservation,  is  tottermg 
to  its  centre,  the  fallii^  constitution  of  this 
ancient  nation  u  happily  supported  by  Mr. 
Jcmes^  who,  like  another  Atlas,  bears  it  upon 
his  shoulders.! 

Mr.  Jones  tnen,  who  sits  before  you,  is  the 
only  man  in  England  who  accuses  the  de- 
fendant He  alope  takes  upon  himself  the 
important  office  of  dictatins  to  his  mijjesty,— 
of  reprobating  the  proceedings  of  his  minis- 
terS| — and  ofsuperseding  his  Attorney  and 
Solicitor  General; — and  ^11  I  insult  your 
understandings  by  supposing  that  this  accusa- 
tion proceeds  from  pure  patnotism  and  pubfie 
spirit  in  him,  or  more  properly  in  thai  other 
fentlemaUy  phoie  deputy  upon  thU  occadan  he 
If  well  known  iobef  Whetner  such  a  supposi- 
tion woi4d  not  indeed  be  an  insult,  his  con- 
duct as  a  ](ublic  prosecutor  will  best  illustrate. 

He  originally,  put  the  indictmoat  in  a  re- 
gular course  of  trial  in  the  very  neighbour- 
hood, where  its  operations  must  have  bent 
most  felt,  and  where,  if  criminal  in  its  ob- 
jects, the  criminality  must  have  been  the 
post  obvious.-:^A  jury  of  that  vicinage  was 
assembled  to  tiy  it,  and  the  dean  having  re- 
quired my  assistance  on  the  occasion^  I  tra^ 
veiled  900  miles  with  great  inconvemence  to 

f  Mr.  WalUee,  then  Attonoy  Oeiiefml. 

t  Mr.  Lee,  then  SoUoitor,  aAetirwdft  Attorney 
M^oeral. 

t  •«  Mr.  Jooee,  tbe  praent  [181S]  nmba  of  Uie 
Ki^e-beaflh,  beeeme  enUDgled  in  the  proseciiUoo 
M  Ibe  attuniej  of  Mr.  Fitmuiriee,  brother  to  the 
ilrtt  BMUiqoees  of  LuidowBe — ^he  is  esteemed  »  rery 
worthy  meii»  and  Iih  sinoe  lived  io  habits  of  hiti- 
neey  end  regtrd  with  lord  Brddne."  Note  of  the 
Bdilor  of  «  Brddae'i  Speeehoe.' 


903] 


25  GEORGE  III.     Proceedings  dgaitut  ike  Dean  of  St.  Aiaph,     [90( 


myself,  to  do  him  that  iiistice  which  he  was 
entitled  to  as  my  friend,  and  to  pay  to  my 
country  that  tribute  which  is  due  from  every 
inan  when  the  liberty  of  the  press  b  in- 
vaded. 

The  jury  thus  assembled,  was  formed  firom 
the  first  characters  in  their  county: — ^men 
who  would  have  most  willingly,  condemned 
either  disaflection  to  the  person  of  the  king, 
or  rebellion  against  his  government:  yet 
when  such  a  jury  was  impannelled,  and  such 
names  were  found  upon-  it  as  sir  Watkyn 
Williams  Wynn,  and  others  not  less  respec- 
table, this  DubUc-gpiriied  proteeutor,  who  had 
no  other  object  than  public  juUiee^  was  con- 
founded and  appalled. — ^He  said  to  himself, 
this  will  never  do. — All  these  gentlemen 
know,  not  only  that  this  paper  is  not  in  it- 
self a  libel,  but  that  it  neither  was  nor  could 
be  published  b;^  the  dean  with  a  libellous  in- 
tention ;  what  is  worse  than  all,  they  are  men 
of  too  proud  an  honour  to  act,  upon  any  per- 
suasion or  authority,  against  the  conviction  of 
their  own  consciences.  But  how  shall  I  get 
rid  .of  them  ? — ^They  are  already  struck  and 
impannelled,  and  unfortunately  neither,  inte- 
grity nor  sense  are  challenges  to  jurors. 

GentJemen,  in  this  dilemma,  he  produced 
an  affidavit,  which  appeared  to  me  not  very 
suffidient  for  the  purpose  of  evading  the  trial ; 
but  as  those,  who  upon  that  occasion  had  to 
decide  that  question  upon  their  oaths,  were  of 
a  different  opinion,  I  shall  not  support  my 
own  by  anv  arguments,  meaning  to  conduct 
myself  with  the  utmost  reverence  for  the  ad- 
nunistration  of  Justice.  I  shall  therefore  con- 
tent myself  with  stating,  that  the  affidavit 
contained  no  other  matter,  than  that  there 
had  been  published  at  Wrexham  an  extract 
from  Dr.  Towers's  Biography,  containing  ac- 
counts of  trials  for  titels  published  above  a 
century  ago,'  from  which  the  jurors  (if  it  had 
fallen  in  their  way,  which  was  not  even  de- 
posed to)  might  have  been  inform^  of  their 
right  to  judge  their  fellow  citizens,  for  crimes 
antecting  their  liberties  or  their  lives ; — a  doc- 
trine not  often  disputed,  and  never  without 
the  vindication  of  it,  by  the  greatest  and  most 
illustrious  names  in  the  law^  But,  says  this 
puhUc  spirited  prosecutor,  if  the  jury  are  to 
try  this,  I  must  withdraw  my  prosecution ;  for 
th^y  are  men  of  honour  and  sense;— they 
know  the  constitution  of  their  country,  and 
they  know  the  dean  of  St.  Asaph;  and  I 
have  therefore  nothing  left  but  to  apply  to 
the  judges,  suggesting  that  the  minds  of  the 
special  jury  are  so  prejudiced,  by  being  told 
that  they  are  Englishmen,  and  that  they  have 
the  power  of  acquitting  a  defendant  accused 
of  a  crime,  if  they  think  him  innocent,  that 
they  are  unfit  to  sit  in  judgment  upon  him. 
Gentlemen,  the  scheme  succeeded ;  and  I 
was  put  in  my  chmse,  and  wheeled  back 
again,  with  the"  matter  in  my  pocket  which 
had  postponed  the  trial ; — matter  which  was 
^0  be  found  in  every  shop  in  London,  and 
)yhlch  had  been  e<)ually  within  the  reach  of 


everjr  man,  who  had  sat  upon  a  jury  siooe 
the  times  of  king  Charles  the  second. 

In  this  manner,  above  a  year  ago,  the  pro- 
secutor deprived  mv  reverend  mend  or  an 
honourable  acquittal  in  his  own  country. — ^II 
is  a  drcurastance  material  in  the  conmenir 
tion  of  this  indictment,  because,  in  adminis- 
tering public  justice,,  yon  wiU,  I  am  persuad- 
ed, watch  with  jealousy  to  discover,  whether 
public  justice  l>e  the  end  and- object  of  the 
prosecution:  and  in  tiying,  whether  my 
reverend  client  proceeded  malo  animo  in  the 
publication  of  this  Dialogue,  you  will  certainly 
obtain  some  light  from  examimng,  quo  auimo 
the  prosecutor  nas  arraigned  him  before  you. 

When  the  indictment  was  brought  down 
again  to  trial  at  Uie  next  following  assiaes^ 
there  were  no  more  pamphlets  to  fonn  a  pre- 
text for  procrastination — ^I  was  surprised,  in- 
deed, that  they  did  not  emplov  some  of  their 
own  party  to  publish  one,  and  have  reoour^ 
to  the  same  device  which  had  been  so  suc- 
cessful before ;  but  this  mode  either  did  not 
strike,  or  was  thou^t  to  be  but  fruitlessly  de* 
laying  that  acquittal^  which  coidd  not  be  ul- 
timately prevented. 

.  The  prosecutor,  therefore,  secretly  sued,  out 
a  writ  of  Certiorari  from  the  court  of  Kii^». 
bench,  the  effect  of  which  .was  to  remove  the 
indictment  fixim  the  court  of  Great  Seaaoos 
in  Wales,  and  to  bring  it  to  trial  as  an  Eo^ish 
record  in  an  English  county.  Armed  with 
this  secret  weapon  to  defeat  the  honest  and 
open  arm  of  justice,  he  appeared  at  Wrexbaza, 
and  gave  notice  of  trial,  sayinc  to  himself,  *  I 
f  will  take  no  notice  that  I  nave  the  king's 
'  writ,  till  1  see  the  oom|rfexion  of  the  jury; 
'  — if  I  find  them  men  fit  for  my  purpose, 
'  either  as  the  prostitutes  of  power,  or  as  men 
'  of  little  minds,  or  from  their  inaignifin^n^T^ 
'  equally  subject  to  the  firown  of  authority 
^  and  the  blandishments  of  comiptioo,   so 

*  that  I  may  reasonably  look  for  a  sacnfioe, 
^  instead  of  a  trial,  I  will  then  keep  the  Cjer- 
^  tiorari  in  my  pocket,  and  the  proceedings 
f  will  of  course  go  forward : — but  if,  on  the 
^  conUnary,  I  find  such  names  as  I  found  be- 
f  fore ; — if  the  gentlemen  of  the  county  are  to 
'  meet  me;  I  will  then,  with  his  majesty's 

*  writ  in  n>y  hand,  discharge  them  fiom  givmg 
'  that  verdict  of  acquittal,  which  their  under* 

*  standings  would  oictate,  and  their  coosca* 
'^  ences  impose.' 

Such,  without  any  ^ure,  I  may  assert  to 
have  been  the  secret  umguage  of  MLr.  Jones 
to  himself,  unless  he  means  to  slander  those 
eentlemen  in  the  fi|ce  of  this  court,  by  saying 
that  the  jurors,  from  whose  jurisdiction  he> 
by  his  Certiorari,  withdrew  'the  indictment, 
were  not  impartial,  intelligent,  and.  indepen- 
dent men ; — a  sentiment  which  he  dares  not 
presume  even  to  whisper,  because  in  public 
or  in  private  he  would  oe  silenced  by  all  who 
heard  it.  _  .  .  . 

From  such  a  tribunal  this  public-spirited 

fssecutor  shrunk  a  second  time :  and  just  as 
was  getting   out  of  my  chaise  %(  Wre<p 


,905] 


Jhsr  a  Seditious  LibeL 


A.  D.  178S. 


[90d 


ham,  after  another  journey  from  the  other 
side  of  the  ishmd,  without  even  nptice  of  an 
intention  to  postpone  the  trials  he  himself  in 
person  (his  counsel  having*  from  a  sense  of 
bomur  and  decency,  refused  it)  presented  the 
king's  writ  to  the  -chief  justice  of  Chester, 
which  dismissed  the  dean  for  ever  from  the 
judgment  of  *his  neighbours  and  countrymen, 
and  which  brings  him  before  you  to^ay. 

"What  opinion  then  must  the  prosecutor  en- 
tertain of  your  honour,  and  your  virtues,  since 
he  evidently  expects  from  you  a  verdict, 
which  it  is  manifest  from  his  conduct  he  did 
not  venture  to  hope  for,  from  ^ch  a  jury  as  I 
have  described  to  you  ? 

Gentlemen,  I  observe  an  honest  indigna- 
tion rising  in  all  your  countenances  on  the 
subject,  which,  with  the  arts  of  an  advocate, 
I  might  easily  press  into  the  service  of  my 
friend ;  but  as  his  defence  does  not  require 
the  support  of  your  resentments,  or  even  of 
those  honest  prejudices,  to  which  liberal 
minds  are  but  too  open  without  excitation,  I 
shall  draw  a  veil  over  all  that  may  seduce 
you  from  the  correctest  and  the  severest 
judgmeut. 

Gentlemen,  the  dean  of  St.  Asaph  is  in- 
dicted by  the  prosecutor,  not  for  havine  pub- 
lished this  little  book ; — that  is  not  thecnarge: 
*^he  b  indicted  for  nublishing  a  &lse,  scan- 
^sdous,  and  malicious  libel,  and  for  pubushing 
it  (I  am  now  going  to  read  the  very  words  of 
the  charge)  '  with  a  malicious  design  and  in- 
'  tention  to  diffuse  among  th^  subjects  of  this 

*  realm  jealousies  and  suspicions  of  the  king 

*  and  his  govenmient ; — ^to  create  disaffection 

*  to  his  person; — to  raise  seditions  and  tu- 

*  mults  within  the  kingdom ;  and  to  excite 

*  his  majesty's  subjects  to  atteinpt,  bv  armed 

*  rebellion  and  violence,  to  subvert  the  state 
'  and  constitution  of  the  nation.' 

These  are  not  words  i>f /arm,  but  of  the 
very  essence  of  the  charge.  The  defendant 
pleads  that  he  is  not  guilty,  and  puts  himself 
up9n  you  his  country ;  and  it  is  fit,  therefore, 
that  you  should  be  distinctlv  informed  of  the 
effect  of  a  general  verdict  of  guilty  on  such  an 
issue,  before  you  venture  to  pronounce  it. — 
Py  such  a  verdict  you  do  not  merely  find,  that 
the  defendant  puUiMhed  the  paper  in  queUUm  ; 
fox  if  that  were  the  whole  scope  of  such  a 
finding,  involving  no  examination  into  the 
meriU  of  the  thing  published,  the  term  guilty 
might  be  wholly  inapplicable  and  unjust,  be- 
cause the  publication  of  that  which  is  not  cri- 
minal cannot  be  a  crime,  and  because  a  man 
cannot  be  ^Hty  of  publishing  that  which 
contains  in  it  nothing  which  constitutes  guilt. 
This  observadon  is  confirmed  by  the  language 
of  the  record ;  for  if  the  verdict  of  fl;uilty  in- 
volved no  other  consideration  than  the  simple 
fact  of  publication,  the  legal  term  would  be, 
thai  the  defendant  published,  not  that  he  was 
GUILTY  of  publishing: — -yet  they,  who  tell 
vou  that  a  general  verdict  of  guilty  compre- 
nends  nothing  more  than  the  fact  of  publish- 
inf,  are  forced  in  the  same  moment  to  con- 

t 


fess,  that  if  yo\)  found  that  fad  almu^  without 
applying  to  It  the  epithet  of  guilty  no  judg^ 
ment  or  punishment  could  iollow  from  your 
verdict ;  and  they  therefore  call  upon  you  to 
pronounce  that  guilt,  which  they  forbid  you 
to  examine  into,  acknowledging  at  the  same 
time,  that  it  can  be  legally  pronounced  by 
NONE  BUT  YOU : — B  positiou  shockiug  to  con^ 
science,  and  insulting  to  common  sense^ 

Indeed,  every  part  of  the  record  exposes  the 
absurdity  of  a  verdict  of  guilty,  which  is  not 
fou^ded  on  a  previous  judgment  that  the  mat- 
ter indicted  is  a  libel,  and  that  the  defendant 
published  it  with  a  criminal  intention ;  for  if 
you  pronounce  the  word  guilty,  without  mean- 
ing to  find  sedition  in  the  thmg  published,  or 
il^  the  mind  of  the  publisher,  you  expose  to 
shame  and  punishment  the  innocence' which 
you  mean  to  protect ;  since  the  instant  that 
you  say  the  defendant  is^i^^,  the  sentleman 
who  sits  under  the^udge  is  bound  By  law  to 
record  him  guilty  tn  manner  and  form  as  he  is 
accused;  i.e.  guilty  of  publishing  a  seditious 
libel,  with  a  seditious  intention;  and  4he 
Court  above  is  likewise  bound  toput  the  same 
construction  on  your  finding,  liius,  without 
inquiry  into  the  only  circumstance  which  can 
constitute  gMilt,  ana  without  meaning  to  find 
the  defendant  guiAy,  you  may  be  seduced  into 
a  judgment  which  your  consciences  may  re- 
volt at,  and  your  speech  to  the  world  deny ; 
but  which  the  authors  of  this  system  have  re- 
solved that  you  shall  not  eaplam  to  the  Court, 
when  it  is  proceeding  to  punish  the  defendant' 
on  the  authority  of  your  intended  verdict  of 
acouiltal. 

As  a  proof  that  this  is  the  plain  and  simple 
state  of^  the  jijuestion,  I  might  venture  to  ask 
the  learned  judge,  what  answer  I  should  re- 
ceive from  the  court  of  King's-bench,  if  you 
were  this  day  to  find  the  dean  of  St.  Asaph 
guilty,  but  without  meaning  to  find  it  a  libel, 
or  that  he  published  it  with  a  wicked  and  se- 
ditious purpose ;  and  I,  on  ihe  foundation  of 
your  wishes  and  opinions,  should  address  my- 
self thus  to  the  Court  when  he  was  called  up 
for  judgment: 
<  My  lords,  I  hope  that,  in  mitigaticm  of 
my  client's  punishment,  you  will  consider 
that  he  pubhshed  it  with  perfect  innocence 
of  intention,  believing,  on  the  highest  au- 
thorities, that  every  thing  contained  in  it 
was  agreeable  to  the  laws  and  constitution 
of  his  country ;  and  that  your  lordships  will 
further  recollect  that  tho  jury,  at  the  trial, 
^ve  no  contrary  opinion,  finding  only  the 
fact  of  publication,* 

Gentlemen,  if  the  patience  and  forbearance 
of  the  judges  permitted  me  to  get  to  the  con- 
clusion of^such  an  absurd  speech,  I  should 
hear  this  sort  of  language  from  the  court  in 
answer  to  it  -.  *  We  are  surprised,  Mr.  Er- 
'  skine,  at  every  thing  we  have  heard  from 
'  you.    You  ought  to  know  your  profession 

*  better,  afler  seven  years  practice  of  it,  than 
'  to  hold  such  a  language  to  the  court :  vou 

*  are  estopped  2|y  the  verdict  <f  Guilty^  frov\ 


fanded,  wcfl  imdaBlooil,  by  al  tint  put  o£ 
the  coounonitjr  which  are  out  of  the  pale  of 
that  biowledge  I7  liboal  sliMiies  and  aocoli. 
fie  rrflartinns ;— •  aufpoaeinily  pahiir ■<pmt> 
edy  and  fHudi  oonld  not  be  better  ^ft*itd^ 
than  by  having  iwoune  to  fiuniliar  eompari- 
aons  dnnm  ftom  comaMm  fife,  more  suited  to 
thefruneof  unlettered  minds  than  ahstnct 


807] 

•myingkedid  mti puklkk  rnitk m tedSHmtm' 
*  t€9iwm  ;  and  we  cannot  listen  to  the  decla- 
<  rations  of  ioron  in  oontiadiction  to  their  re- 
«  corded  joMient.* 

Such  womd  be  the  reoeptkn  of  that  de- 
fienoe ;— and  thus  you  are  asked  to  defircr' 
over  ^  dean  of  SL  Asanh  mto  the  hands  of 
the  judges,  humane  ana  liberal  indeed,  bat 
who  could  not  betray  their  oaths^  because 
yon  had  set  them  the  euunple  by  betraying 
Marty  and  who  would  thererore  be  bound  to 
believe  him  criminal,  because  jnw  had  said  so 
on  the  record,  though  in  violation  of  your  opi- 
nions— ophiions  upon  wluch,  as  ministers  of 
the  kw,  they  could  not  acty^-tothe  eiistence 
of  which  thejr  could  not  even  advert. 

The  conduct  of  my  fnend  Mr.  Bearcroft, 
upon  this  oecasion,  which  was  marked  with 
wisdom  and  discretion,  is  a  ftrther  confirma- 
tion of  the  truth  of  all  these  observations: — 
for,  if  your  duty  had  been  confined  to  the 
simple  question  of  publication,  his  address  to 
you  would  Ittve  been  nothing  more,  than  that 
he  would  caU  his  witness  to  prove  the  fad  that 
the  deoM  pmkUihed  this  p«per,  instead  of  en- 
larging to  you,  as  he  has  done  with  great  abi- 
lity, on  the  Ubellotts  nature  of  the  publica- 
tion. There  i^  therefore,  a  gross  inconsis- 
tency in  his  aodress  to  you^ — not  from  want 
of  his  usual  precision,  but  because  he  is  ham- 
pered by  his  good  sense  in  stating  an  absurd 
argument,  which  happens  to  be  necessary  for 
bis  purpose ;  for  he  sets  out  with  sa^msg,  that 
if  you  shall  bb  of  opinion  it  has  no  tendency 
to  excite  sedition,  you  must  find  him  not 
guiUy  ;  and  ends  with  tellins  you,  that  wbe- 
9ier  tt  Act  or  Aoi  lu)^  such  tendency,  is  a  ques- 
tion of  Um  for  the  Court,  and  foreisn  to  the 
present  consideration. — ^It  reguires>  &erefore, 
no  other  foculty  than  that  ot  keeping  awake, 
to  see  through  the  fallacy  of  such  doctrines ; 
and  I  shall  therefore  proceed  to  lay  before 
you  the  observations  I  have  made  upon  this 
Dialogue,  which  you  are  desired  to  censure  as 
a  libel. 

I  have  already  observed^  and  it  is  indeed  on 
all  hands  admitted,  that  if  it  be  libellous  at 
all,  it  b  a  libel  on  the  public  government,  and 
not  the  slander  of  any  private  man. 

Now  to  constitute  a  libel  upon  the  govern- 
ment, one  of  two  things  appears  to  me  to  be 
absolutely  necessary.  The  publication  must 
either  arraign  and  misrepresent  the  general 
principles,  on  which  the  constitution  is  found- 
ed, with  a  design  to  render  the  people  turbiH 
lent  and  discontented  under  it;>-or,  admit- 
ting the  goiid  principles  of  the  government  in 
the  abstnict,  must  accuse  the  existing  admi- 
nistration with  a  departure  from  tSiem, — in 
such  a  manner  too,'as  to  convince  a  jury  of  an 
evil  design  in  the  writer. 
-  Let  us  try  this  little  pamphlet  by  these 
touchstones,  and  let  the  defondant  stand  or 
foil  by  the  test 

The  beginning,  and  indeed  the  evident  and 
universal  scope  of  it,  is  to  render  our  happy 
constitution,  and  the  principles  on  which  it  m 


It  was  thb  coiwiderelwn  that  led  sir  WiJ. 
liam  Jones,*  a  gentfeman  of  great  learning 
and  excellent  principles^  to  compose  this  Dia- 
logoe,  and  who,  imme&lely  after  avowing 
himself  to  be  the  author,  was  appMBled  by 
the  king  to  be  one  of  the  supreme  ja%es  of 
our  Asiatk  empire:  where  he  would  tenily 
have  been  selected  to  preside^if  his  work  had 
been  thought  seditious.— Of  this  I  am  sure^ 
that  his  intentions  were  directi  v  the  contnuy. 
— ^He  thought  and  feh,  as  all  men  of  im»^ 
must  think  and  feel,  that  there  was  no  mode 
so  likely  to  inculcate  obedienoe  to  govern- 
ment in  an  Englishman,  as  to  make  him  ac- 
quainted with  Its  principles;  since  the  Ens- 
nsh  constitution  must  always  be  cherisbcd 
and  revered  exactly  in  the  proportion  that  it 
is  understood. 

He  therefore  divested  his  mind  of  aD  tbose 
classical  refinements  wbkh  so  remarkably 
characterise  it,  and  composed  this  simple  and 
natural  Dialogue  between  a  Gcntlonan  and 
a  Farmer :  in  which  the  Gentleman,  meanii^ 
to  illustrate  the'  great  principles  of  public 
covemment,  by  companng  them  with  the 
lesser  combinations  of  society,  asks  the  Far- 
mer, what  is  the  object  of  the  little  dub  in  the 
village  of  which  he  b  amember;  and  if  he  b 
a  member  of  iton  compulsion,  or  by  his  free 
oonsentf — ^If  the  president  is  selAappointed,  or 
rules  by  election  r — If  he  would  submit  to  his 
taking  the  money  from  the  box  without  tbe 
vote  of  the  members? — ^with  many  other 
<piestions  of  a  similv  tendency;  and  being 
answered  in  the  negative,  he  very  luminously 
brin^  forward  the  analog  by  making  the 
Gentleman  say  to  him,  '  Did  it  never  occur 
'  to^ou  that  every  slate  is  but  a  great  dub  ?" 
or,  m  other  words,  that  the  greater  as  wdlas 
the  lesser  sodelies  of  mankind  are  held  toge- 
ther by  social  compacts,  and  that  the  govern- 
ment of  which  you  are  a  subject,  is  not  tbe  rod 
of  oppression  in  the  hands  of  the  strongest, 
but  is  of  your  own  creation  ;-'HI  vokmtaiy 
emanation  firom  yourself,  and  directed  to  your 
own  advanlage. 

Mr.  Bearcroft,  sensible  that  this  is  the  just 
and  natural  construction  of  that  oart  of  the 
Dialogue,  was  very  desirous  to  make  you  be- 
lieve that  the  otlier  part  of  if,  touching  the 
reform  in  the  representation  of  the  people  in 
parliament,  had  no  reference  to  that  context ; 
tNJt  that  it  was  to  be  connected  with  all  that 
follows  about  bearing  arms.  I  must  therefore 


*  Sir  WitlUm  JoMt  u  bow  de«<l,  bat  kb 
will  lire  for  ever  in  the  gmlefol  meaory  of  Us 
eoantrr. 


909] 


fosr  a  Sediiiotu  Libel. 


A.  D,  1783. 


[910 


beg  yovrt'  attention  to  ^at  part  of  the  miblica*- 
tioiEL  wKlch  >nill  speak  plainly  for  itself.- 

Tiie  Gentlettan  says  to  the  Tanner^  on  his 
telling  him  he  had  no  vote,  '  Do  you  know 

*  that  six  itien  in  seven  have,  like  you,  no 
'  voite  in  the  election  of  those  who  make  the 
'  laws  which  bind  your  property  and  life?'' 
and  then  asks  hiin  to  sign  a  petition  which 
has  fimr  its  object  to  render  elections  co-exten- 
stve  with  the  trusts  which  they  repose. — And 
is  there  a  man  upon  the  juiy,  who  does  not 
feel  that  all  the  other  advantages  of  onr  con- 
stitution are  lost  to  us,  until  this  salutary  ob- 
ject is  attained :  or  who  is  not  reildy  to  ap- 
plaud every  man  who  seeks  to  attain  it  by 
means  that  are  constitutional  ? 

But,  according  to  my  friend,  the  means 
proposed  were  not  constitutional,  but  rebel- 
lious. I  will  give  you  his  own  words,  as  I 
took  ^cm  down :'  '  The  Gentleman  was  say- 

*  ing,  very  intelligibly, — Sir,  I  desire  you  to 

*  rebel, — ^to  clothe  yourself  in  armour,  for  you 
'  are  cheated  of  }rour  inheritance. — How  are 

*  you  to  rectify  this  ? — ^How  are  you  to  right 

*  yourselves?— ^Leam  the  Prussian  exercise.' 

But,  how  does  my  friend  collect  these  ex- 
pressions from  the  words  of  the  passages, 
which  are  shortly  these :  *  And  the  petition 

*  which  I  desired  you  to  sign  has  only  fbrjts 
'  olject  the  restoration  of  your  right  to  choose 

*  your  law-makers.'  I  confess  I  am  at  a  loss 
to  conceive  how  the  Prussian  exercise  finds 
its  way  into  this  sentence. — It  is  a  most  mar- 
tial way  of  describing  pen  and  ink.— Cannot 
a  man  sign  a  petition  without  tossing  a  fire- 
lock f  I,  who  have  been  a  soldier,'  can  do 
cither ; — but  I  do  not  sign  mv  name  with  a 
gun.  There  is,  besides,  another  difficulty  in 
my  friend's  construction  of  the  sentence. — 
The  object  of  the  petition  is  the  choosing  of 
law-makers;  but,  according  to  him,  there  is 
to  be  an  end  of  all  law-m^ers,  and  of  all 
laws :  for  neither  can  exist  under  the  Prus- 
sian exercise. — ^He  must  be  a  whimsical 
scholar,  who  tells  a  Farmer  to  sign  a  petition 
for  the  improvement  of  government,  nis  real 
purpose  being  to  set  it  upon  the  die  of  a  rebel- 
lion, whether  there  should  be  any  government 
atall. 

But,  let  me  ask  you,  gentlemen,  whether 
such  strained  constructions  are  to  be  tolerat- 
ed in  a  criminal  prosecution,  when  the  simple 
and  natural  construction  of^  language  fUls  in 
directiy  with  the  feet?— You  cannot  but 
Jmow,  tiiaty  at  the  time  when  ibis  Dialogue 
was  written,  the  table  of  the  House  of  Com-* 
mons  groaned  with  petitions  presented  to  the 
House  from  the  most  ilhistnous  names  and 
characters^  representing  tiie  most  important 
commimities  m  the  nation  ;r- not  with  the 
tiireat  of  the  Prussian  exercise,  but  with  the 
prayer  of  humility  and  respect  to  the  ledsbir 
ture,  that  some  immechate  step  should  be 
taken  to  avert  that  ruin,  which  the  defect  in 
the  repres^itation  of  the  people  must  sooner 
or  later  bring  upon  this  falling  empire. — ^I  do 
not  choose  to  eQter  iato  poUti<;al  4i9CU89ioDs 


here — ^but  we  all  know,  that  tiie  calamitiea 
which  have  fallen  upon  this  country  have 
proceeded  from  that  ntid  source ;  and  every 
wise  itian  must  be  therefore  sensible,  that  a 
reform,  if  it  can  be  attained  without  confusion, 
is  a  most  desirable  object. — ^But  whether  it  be 
or  be  not  desirable,  is  an  idle  speculation ;— - 
because,  at  all  events,  the  subject  has  a  right 
to  petition  for  what  he  thinks  benefici^; 
however  visionary,  therefore,  you  may' think 
his  petition,  you  cannot  deny  it  to  be  consti- 
tutional Ina  legal ;  and  I  may  venture  to  as- 
sert, that  this  Dialogue  is  ihej^r$t  abstract  me- 
cuhaive  writing,  which  hoi  been  attacked  as  a 
libel  since  the  KetokUion  ;  and  from  Mr.  Bear- 
crofVs  admission,  that  the  proceeding  is  not 
prudent,  I  may  venture  to  foretel  that  it  will 
DC  the  last. 

If  you  pursue  this  part  of  the  Dialogue  to 
the  conclusion,  the  felse  and  unjust  con- 
struction put  upon  it  becomes  more  palpable: 

*  Give  me  your  pen,*  said  the  Farmer :  *  I 
'  never  wrote  my  namc^  ill  as  it  may  be  writ- 
'  ten,  with  greater  eagerness.' — Upon  which 
the  GenUeman  says,  '  I  applaud  you,  and 
'  trust  that  your  example  wni  be  fbuowed  by 
'millions.'  What  example? — Arms? — Re. 
hellion  ?  —  Disafiection  ?  No  !  — >  but  that 
others  mieht  add  their  names  to  the  petition,, 
which  he  bad  advised  him  to  signi,  until  the 
voice  of  the  whole  nation  reached  pslrliament 
on  the  subject — This  is  the  plain  and  obvbus 
construetioh ;  and  it  is  'not  loqe  since  that 
those  persons  in  parliament  witn  whom  my 
friend  associates,  and  with  whom  he  acts,  aN' 
fepted  at  least  to  hold  the  voice  of  the  people 
01  England  to  be  the  rule  and  guide  of  parlia- 
ment^ and  the  Gentleman  in  the  Dialogue^ 
knowmg  tiiat  the  universal  voice  of  the  com- 
munity could  not  be  wisely  neglected  by  the 
legislature,  only  expressed  his  wish,  that  the 
petitions  should  not  be  partial,  but  universal. 

With  the  expression  of  this  wish  every 
thing  in  the  Dialogue  upon  the '  subject  of 
itsptesentation  finally  closes  ;  and  if  you  will 
only  honour  me  with  your  attention  for  a 
few  moments  longer,  I  will  ,ahew  you,  that 
the  rest  of  the  pamphlet  is  the  most  abstract 
speculation  on  government  to  be  found  in 
prim ;  and  that  I  was  well  warranted  when  I 
tdld  you  some  time  ago,  that  all  its  doctrines 
were  to  be  found  in  the  brightest  pages  of 
English  learning,  and  in  the  mo9t  sacrra  vo- 
lumes of  English  laWs. 

The  subject  of  the  petition  being  finished,^ 
the  Gentleman  says,  <  Another  word  before' 
^we  part.  What  oiight  to  be  the  con»e- 
^quence,  if  THE  kino  alowe  were  to  insist 

*  on  making  laws,  or  on  altering  them  at  his 
^  will  and  pleasure?'  To  which  the  Fstrmer 
answens  ^He  too  must  beexpeUed.' — 'Oh/ 
'  but  think  of  his  stsinding  army,'  says  the 
Gentleman,  *  and  of  the  militia,  which  noiv 
'  are  his  in  substance,  though  ours  in  form.^ 
Ftoner :   *  If  he  were  to  employ  that  forci) 

*  against  the  nation,  they  would,  and  ouglit 

*  to  resist  him>  or  the  state  would  cease  ti^ 


911] 


25  GEORGE  UL     ProceedxHgs  against  the  Dean  of  St.  A$aph,     [912 


'  be  a  state.*  And  now  vou  will  see  that  I 
am  not  countenancing  rebellion ;  for  if  this 
were  pointed  to  excite  resistance  to  the  king's 
authority^  and  to  lead  the  people  to  believe' 
that  his  majesty  was,  in  the  pf'eteni  arnne  of 
kU  government^  breaking  through  the  laws, 
and  therefore,  on  the  principles  of  the  consti- 
tution, was  subject  to  expulsion,  I  admit  that 
jny  client  ought  to  be  expelled  from  this,  and 
from  every  other  community. — But  is  this 
];itoved  ? — ^No !  It  is  not  even  asserted. — ^I 
say  this  in  the  hearing  of  a  judge  deeply 
learned  in  the  laws,  and  who  is  bound  to  tell 
yoUy  tkat  there  is  nothing  in  the  indictment, 
which  even  charges  such  an  application  of  the 
general  doctrine.  The  gentleman  who  drew 
it  is  also  very  learned  in  his  profession ;  and 
if  he  had  intended  such  a  charge,  he  would 
have  followed  the  rules  delivered  by  the 
twelve  Judges  in  the  House  of  Lords,  m  the 
case  of  the  Kioe  against  Home,*  and  would 
have  set  out  with  saying,  that,  at  the  time  of 
publishing  the  libel  in  question,  there  were 
petitions  from  all  parts  of  England,  desiring 
a  reform  in  the  representation  of  the  people 
in .  parliament ;  —  and  that  the  defendant 
knowine  this,  and  intending  to  stir  up  rebel- 
lion, ana  to  make  the  people  believe,  that  his 
majesty  was  ruling  contrary  to  law,  and  ought 
to  be  expelled,  caused  to  be  published  the 
Dialogue.  This  would  have  been  the  intro- 
duction to  such  a  charge ;  and  then  when  he 
came  to  the  words,  *  He  too  must  be  expell- 
*  ed,'  he  would  have  said,  by  way  of  innuen- 
do, meaning  thereby  to  insinuate,  that  the  king 
was  governing  contrary  to  law,  and  ought  to  be 
expelled;  which  innuendo,  though  void  in 
itself,  without  antecedent  matter  by  way  of 
introduction,  would,  when  coupled  with  the 
introductory  averment  on  the  record,  have 
made  the  charge  complete. — ^I  should  have 
then  known  what  I  had  to  defend  my  client 
a^nst,  and  should  have  been  prepared  with 
witnesses  to  show  you  the  absurdity  of  sup* 
posing  that  the  desji  ever  imainned,  or  meant 
to  insinuate,  that  the  present  king  was  go- 
verning contrary  to  law.  But  the  penner  of 
the  indictment,  well  knowing  that  you  never 
could  have  found  such  an  application,  and 
that,  if  it  had  been  averred  as  tne  true  mean- 
ing of  the  Dialogue,  the  indictment  must 
have  fallen  to  the  ground  for  want  of  such 
finding,  prudently  omitted  the  innuendo  :•— 
yet  you  are  desired  by  Mr.  Bearcroft,  to  take 
that  to  be  the  true  construction,  which  the 
prosecutor  durst  not  venture  to  submit  to 
you  by  an  averment  in  the  indictment,  and- 
which  not  being  averred,  is  not  at  all  befoi« 
you. 

But  if  you  attend  to  what  follows,  you  will 
observe  that  the  writing  is  purely  smeculative^ 
comprehending  all  the  modes  by  which  a  go- 
vernment may  be  dissolved ;  for  it  is  follow- 
ed with  the  speculative  case  of  injury  to  a 
government  from  bad  ministers,  and  its  con- 

*  Sot  rol.  10,p.  ii51. 


stitotional   remedy — says  the   GeiitleimB, 
What,  if  the  great  accountants  and  great 
lawyers  of  the  nation  were  *  to  abuse  th«r 
trust,  and  cruelly  injure,  instead  of  ftithiiilly 
servins  the  pubGc,  what  in  such  ease  are  ^oii 
lo  do  r  Farmer, '  We  must  request  the  kin^ 
to  remove  them,  and  make  trial  of  others, 
but  none  should  implicitly  be  trusted.'    Re- 
quest the  king  to  remove  them !  why,  accord- 
ing  to  Mr.  Bearcroft,  you  had  expelled  iUw 
the  moment  before. 

Then  follows  a  third  speculailon  of  a-  go- 
vernment dissolved  by  an  aristocracy,  Uie 
king  remaining  faithful  to  his  trust ;  for  the 
Gentleman  proceeds  thus :  '*  But  what  if  a 
'  few  great  lords  or  wealthy  men  were  to  keep 
'  the  kine  himself  in  subjection,  yet  exert  bis 

*  force,  Mvish  his  treasure,  and  misuse  his 

*  name,  so  as  to  domineer  over  the  people, 

<  and  manage  the  narliament  r  Says  the 
Farmer,  '  We  must  ^ht  for  the  king  and  for 
'ourselves.'  What?  for  the  fusitive  king 
whom  the  dean  of  St  Asaph  had  before  ex- 
pelled from  the  crown  of^  these  kingdoms ! 
Hero  again  the  ridicule  of  Mr.  Bearcroft's 
constructions  stares  you  in  the  &ce :  but  tak- 
ing it  as  an  abstract  speculation  of  the  ruin  of 
a  state  by  aristocracy,  it  is  perfectly  plain. 
When  he  first  puts  the  possible  case  of  regal 
tyranny,  he  states  the  remedy  of  expulsion ; 
— when  of  bad  ministers  to  a  good  king,  the 
remedy  of  petition  to  the  throne ; — andwhea 
he  supposes  the  throne  to  be  overpowered  by 
aristocratic  dominion,  he  then  says,  '  We 
'  must  fieht  for  the  king  and  for  ourselves.' — 
If  there  nad  been  but  one  speculation ;  viz.  of 
regal  tyranny,  there  might  have  been  plausi- 
bility at  least  in  Mr.  Bearcrof\*s  argument; 
but  when  so  many  diflferent  propositions  are 
put,  altoffetber  repugnant  to  and  inconsistent 
with  each  other,  common  sense  tells  every 
man  that  the  writer  is  speculative,  since  no 
state  of  facts  can  suit  them  all. 

Gentlemen,  these  observations,  striking  as 
they  are,  must  lose  murii  of  their  force,  un- 
less you  carry  idong  with  you  the  writing 
from  which  they  arise ;  and  therefore  I  am 
persuaded  that  you  will  be  permitted  4o  day 
to  do  what  juries  have  been  directed  by  courts 
to  do  on  the  most  solemn  occasions,  that  is, 
to  take  the  supposed  libel  with  you  out  of 
court,  and  to  judge  for  younelves  whether  it 
be  possible  for  any  conscientious  or  reason- 
able man  to  fasten  upon  it  any  other  inter- 
pretation than  that  which  I  have  laid  before 
you. 

If  the  Dialogue  is  pursued  a  little  &rther, 
it  will  be  seen,  that  all  the  exhortations  to 
arms  are  pointed  to  the  protection  of  the 
king's  government,  and  the  liberty  of  the 
peopld  oerived  from  it    Says  the  Gentleman, 

*  You  talk  of  fighting  as  ii  you  were  speak- 
'  ing  of  some  rustic  eng^ment ;  but  your 
'  quarter-slaH*  would  avail  you  little  against 
'  bayonets/  Farmer, '  We  might  easily  pro- 
'  vide  ourselves  with  better  arms.' — ^  Not  so 

<  easily/  says  the  Geutleman;  '  you  ou^ht  to 


t 


913] 


Jora  Seditious  LibeL 


A.  D.  17BS. 


[914. 


*  have  a  strong  firelock/  What  to  do?  look 
at  the  context,— for  God's  sake  do  not  violate 
all  the  rules  of  grammar,  by  refusing  to  look 
at  theneit  antc^ent  Intake  care  to  have  a 

.  firelock,    for  what  purpose  ?  *  To  fi^t  for 

*  the  kme  and  yourself/  in  case  the  king, 
who  is  the  fountain  of  legal  government, 
should  be  kept  in  subjection  by  those  great 
and  wealthy  lords,  who  might  abuse  his  au- 
thority and  insult  his  title.  This,  I  assert,  is 
Bot  only  the  genuine  and  natural  construc- 
tion, but  the  only  legal  one  it  can  receive 
from  the  Court  on  this  record :  unce,  in  order 
to  charee  all  this  to  be  not  merely  specula- 
tive and  abstract,  but  pointing  to  the  king 
and  his  government,  to  the  expulsion  of  our 
gracious  sovereign,  whom  my  reverend  friend 
respects  and  loves,  and  whose  government  he 
reverences  as  much  as  any  man  who  hears 
me,  there  should  have  been  such  an  intro- 
duction as  I  have  already  adverted  to,  viz. 
that  there  were  such  views  and  intentions  in 
€ihqfty  and  that  he,  knowing  it,  and  intending 
40  impraoe  and  foment  them,  wrote  to  and  so ; 
and  then  on  coming  to  the  words,  that  the 
king  nfust  be  expelled,  the  sense  and  applica- 
tion sliould  have  been  pointed  by  an  aver- 
onent,  that  he  thereby  meant  to  insinuate  to  the 
foepU  of  England  that  the  present  king  ought 
in  fact  to  be  espelUd;  and  not  speculatively, 
that  under  such  circumstances  it  would  be 
lawful  ta  expel  a  king. 

Gentlemen,  if  I  am  well  founded  in  thus 
asserting,  that  neither  in  law  nor  in  fact  is 
there  any  seditious  application  of  Uiose  ge- 
neral principles,  there  is  nothing  farther  teh 
for  consideration,  than  to  see  whether  they 
be  warranted  in  the  abstract; — a  discussion 
liardly  necessary  under  the  government  of  his 
present  majesty,  who  holds  his  crown  under 
|he  Act  of  Settlement,  made  in  consequence 
of  the  compact  between  the  king  and  people 
at  the  Revolution.  What  part  you  or  I,  een- 
tlemen,  mijght  have  taken,  if  we  had  livra  in 
the  days ofthe  Stuarts,  and  in  the  unhappiest 
of  their  days  which  brought  on  the  Revolu- 
tion, is  foreign  to  the  present  question; — 
-frhether  we  should  have  been  found  amone 
those  glorious  names,  who  from  well-dh^ctea 
principle  supported  that  memorable  sera^  or 
amongst  those  who  from  mistaken  principle 
opposed  it,  cannot  affect  our  judgments  to- 
^y: — ^whatever  part  we  mav  conceive  we 
should  or  ou^ht  to  have  acted,  we  are  bound 
by  the  acts  of  our  ancestors,  who  determined 
that  there  existed  an  original  compact  be- 
tween king  and  people, — ^who  declaiedthat 
king  James  had  broken  it^ — and  vfho  bestowed 
the  crown  upon  another. — The  principle  of 
that  memoraole  revolution  is  fully  explained 
in  the  Bill  of  Rljghts,  and  forms  the  most  un- 
answerable vindication  of  this  little  book.-— 
The  misdeeds  of  kine  James  are  dmwn  up  in 
the  preamble  to  that  ramous  statute ;  and  it  is 
worth  your  attention^  that  one  ofthe  principal 
charges  in  the  catalogue  of  his  offences  is, 
that  he  caused  several  of  those  subjects 

VOL.  XXI. 


(whose  right  to  carry  arms  is  to-day  denied 
by  this  indictment)  to  be  disarmed  in  defiance 
of  the  laws. — Our  ancestors  having  stated  all 
the  crimes  for  which  they  took  the  crown 
from  the  head  of  their  fiigitive  sovereign,  and 
having  placed  it  on  the  brows  of  theu:  deli- 
verer, nurk  out  the  conditions  on  which  he  is 
to  wear  it. — ^They  were  not  to  be  betrayed  by 
his  great  qualities,  nor  even  by  the  gratitude 
they  owed  him,  to  give  him  an  imconditional 
inheritance  in  the  throne;  but  enumerating 
all  their  ancient  privileges,  they  tell  their  new 
sovereijgn  in  the  oodv  of  the  law,  thut  while  he 
maintains  those  privileges,  and  no  longer  than 
he  maintains  them,  he  u  king. 

The  same  wise  caution,  which  marked  the 
acts  of  the  Revolution,  is  visible  in  the  Act  of 
Settlement  on  the  accession  of  the  House  of 
Hanover,  by  which  the  crown  was  again  be* 
stowed  upon  the  strict  condition  of  governing 
according  to  law, — ^maintaining  the  Protes- 
tant religion,— and  not  being  married  to  a 
Papbt. 

Under  this  wholesome  eAtail,  lokich  again 
vindicates  0aerjf  sentence  in  this  book,  may  bis 
ni^jest}[  and  his  posterity  hold  the  crown  of 
these  kingdoms  for  ever  f— a  wisn  in  which  I 
know  I  am  fervently  seconded  by  my  reverend 
friend,  and  with  which  I  might  call  the  whole 
country  to  vouch  for  the  conformity  of  hit 
conduct. 

But  my  learned  friend,  knowing  that  I  was 
invulnerable  here,  and  afraid  to  encounter 
those  principles  on  which  his  own  personal 
liberty  is  founded,  and  on  the.  assertion  of 
which  his  well-earned  chaFEu:ter  is  at  stake  in 
the  world,  says  to  you  with  his  usual  artifice  s 
'  Let  us  admit  that  there  is  no  sedition  in  this 
*  Dialogue,  let  us  suppose  it  to  be  all  constitu- 
'  tional  and  legal,  ^e^  it  may  do  mischief;  why 
'  tell  the  people  so  V 

Gentlemen,  I  am  furnished  with  an  answer 
to  this  objection,  which  I  hope  will  satisfy 
my  friend,  and  put  an  end  to  all  disputes 
amon§  us ;  for  upon  this  head  I  will  give  vou 
the  opinion  of  Mr.  Locke,  the  greatest  Whig 
that  ever  lived  in  this  country,  and  likewise  of 
lord  Bolingbroke,  the  greatest  Tory  in  it;  by  ' 
which  you  will  see  that  Whigs  and  Tories, 
who  pould  never  accord  in  any  thing  else, 
were  perfectly  agp-eed  upon  the  propriety  and 
virtue  of  enlightening  tiie  people  on  the  sub« 
ject  of  eovemment. 

Mr.  Locke  on  this  subject  speaks  out  much 
stronger  than  the  Dialogue.  He  says  in  his 
Treatise  on  Government,*  *  Wherever  law 
'  ends  tyranny  bezins;  and  whoever,  in  au- 
'  thority,  exceeds  the  power  given  him  by  the 
'  law,  ioA  makes  use  of  the  force  he  has  under 
'  his  command,  to  compass  that  upon  the  sub- 
'  ject  which  the  law  allows  not,  cea$e»  in  that 
'  to  be  a  magistrate,  and,  acting  without  au^ 
'  thority,  may  be  opposed  as  any  other  man, 
'  who  by  force  invades  the  rights  of  another* 
'  This  is  acknowledged  in  subordinate  magi^ 


3  N 


«  Book  %  Qbtp.  18,  $.  90%. 


915] 


2S  GEORGB  III.     Proceedingi  sgainst  the  Dean  of  St.  Asaphy     [915 


'  trates.  He  that  hath  authority  by  a  legal 
'  warrant  to  seize  my  person  in  the  street ^  may 
'■  be  opposed  as  a  thief  and  a  robber,  if  he  eD- 
'  deavours  to  break  into  nnf  house  to  execute  it 

*  on  me  there,  althoueh  I  know  he  has  such 
'  a  warrant  as  would  Save  empowered  him  to 

*  arrest  me  abroad.    And  why  this  should  not  ; 

<  hold  in  the  highest  as  well  as  in  the  most  ■ 

*  inferior  magistrate,  I  would  gladly  be  in-  i 

<  formed.    For  the  exceeding  the  bounds  of 

*  authority  is  no  more  a  right  in  a  great  than 

<  in  a  petty  officer,  in  a  king  than  in  a  con- 

*  stable ;  but  is  so  much  the  worse  in  him, 

*  that  he  has  tnore  trust  put  in  him,  and 
'  more  extended  evil  follows  from  the  abuse 
'  of  if 

But  Mr.  Locke,  knowins  that  the  most  ex- 
cellent doctrines  are  often  perverted  by 
wicked  men,  who  have  their  own  private  ob- 
jects to  lead  them  to  that  perversion,  or  by 
Ignorant  men  who  do  not  understand  them, 
takes  the  veiy  objection  of  my  learned  friend, 
Mr.  Bearcroft,  and  puts  it  as  follows  into  the 
mouth  of  his  adversary,  in  order  that  he  may 
himself  answer  and  expose  it :  *  But  there  are 
'  who  say  that  it  lays  a  foundation  for  rebel- 

*  lion,'— Gentlemen,  you  will  do  me  the  ho- 
nour to  attend  to  this,  for  one  would  imagine 
Mr.  Bearcroft  had  Mr.  Locke  in  his  hand 
when  he  was.  speaking. 

*  But  there  are  who  say  that  it  lays  a  foun- 
^  dation  for  rebellion,  to  tell  the  people  that 

*  they  are  absolved  from  obedience^  when 
'  illegal  attempts  are  made  upon  their  libcnr- 
f  ties,  and  that  they  may  oppose  their  magi^ 
'  trates  when  they  invade  their  properties, 
'  contrary  to  the  trust  put  in  them ;  and  that, 

<  therefore,  the  doctrine  is  not  to  be  allowed,* 
^  as  hbellous,  dangerous,  and  destructive  of 
'  the  peace  of  the  world.' — ^But  that  great 
man  instantly  answers  the  objection,  which 
he  had  himself  raised  in  order  to  destroy  it, 
and  truly  says,  *  such  men  might  as  well  say, 

*  that  the  people  should  not  he  told  that  ho- 

*  nest  men  may  oppose  robbers  or  pirates,  lest 
'  it  should  excite  to  disorder  and  bloodsh^.'  * 

What  reasoning  can  be  more  jpust  f — ^for  if 
we  were  to  ar^e  from  the  possibility,  that 
humao  depravity  and  follv  may  turn  to  evil 
what  is  meant  for  good,  all  the  comforts  and 
blessings  which  G^,  the  author  of  indulgent 
nature,  has  bestowed  upon  us,  and  without 
which  we  should  neither  enioy  nor  indeed  de- 
serve our  existence,  would  be  abolished  as 
pernicious,  till  we  were  reduced  to  the  fellow- 
ship of  beasts. 

The  Holy  Gospels  could  not  be  promul- 
gated ;  for  thouzh  they  are  the'foundalton  of 
all  the  moral  obligations,  which  unite  men 
together  in  society,  yet  the  study  of  them 
often  conducts  weaik  minds  to  false  opinions, 
enthusiasm,  and  madness. 
.  The  use  of  pistols  should  be  forbidden ; — 
for,  though  they  are  necessaiy  instruments  of 
self-defence,  yet  men  often  turn  them  re- 


f*" 


*  Boak9»o]iaip.l9,f.t§d.^ 


vengefuUy  upon  one  another  in  private  <p]ai- 
rels. — Fire  ought  to  be  prohibited ;— for 
though,  under  due  regulatknis,  it  is  not  only 
a  luxury  but  a  necessary  of  life,  ^et  the  dwriU 
ings  of  mankind  and  whole  cities  are  often 
laid  waste  and  destroyed  bv  it. — Medicines 
and  drugs  shoukl  not  be  sold  -promiscuously  ; 
— for  twiugh,  in  the  hands  of  skilful  physi- 
cians, they  are  the  kind  restoratives  of  nature, 
yet  they  may  come  to  be  administered  by 

auacks,  and  operate  as  poisons. — ^There  is  no- 
ting, in  short,  however  excellent,  which 
wickedness  or  folly  may  not  pervert  from  its 
intend^  purpose. — ^But  if  I  tell  a  man,  that 
if  he  takes  my  medicine  in  the  aeony  of  dis- 
ease, it  will  expel  it  by  the  vioKnce  of  its 
operation,  will  it  induce  him  to  destroy  fa^ 
constitution  by  taking  it  while  he  is  in  health  ? 
Just  so,  when  a  writer  speculates  on  all  the 
ways  by  which  human  governments  mav  be 
dissolved,  and  points  out  the  remedies,  whkb 
the  history  of  the  world  furnishes  fiwm  the 
experience  of  former  ages^  is  he,  there|(Mrc, 
to  be  supposed  to  progimUcate  instant  ihaso- 
lution  in  the  existing  government,  and  to  84ft 
up  sedition  and  rebeuion  against  it  ? 

Having  eiven  you  the  sentiments  of  Mr. 
Locke,  pubu^ed  three  years  after  the  acoe^ 
sion  of^  king  William,  who  caressed  the  ai^ 
thor,  and  raised  him  to  the  highest  trust  io 
the  state,  let  us  look  at  the  sentiments  of  a 
Tory,  on  that  subject,  not  less  celebrated  io 
the  republic  of  letters,  and  on  the  theatre  of 
the  world : — ^I  speak  of  the  great  lord  BoiJii9i> 
broke,  who  was  m  arms  to  vestore  king  James 
to  his  forfeited  throne,  and  who  was  anxiotis 
to  rescue  the  Jacobites  from  what  he  thought 
a  scandal  on  them,  namely  the  imputation^ 
that,  because  from  the  union  of  so  n^py  hi^ 
man  rights  centered  in  the  person  of  kiii$ 
James,  t.hey  preferred  and  supported  his  ber&> 
ditary  title  on  the  footine  of  our  own  aadeni 
civil  constitutions,  they,  Uierefore^  believed  in 
his  ckum  to  govern  jure  divino^  mdependcnt 
of  the  law. 

This  doctrine  of  passive  obedience,  which 
the  prosecutor  of  this  libel  must  successful^ 
mauitain  to  be  the  law,  and  which  certainly 
is  the  law,  if  this  Dialogue  be  a  libel,  was  re» 
sentedabovehalf  aeeniury  agobv  this  great 
writer,  even  in  a  tract  written  while  an  exile 
in  Ffanoe  on  account  of  his  treason  againat 
the  House  of  Hanover.  *  The  duty  of  the 
people,'  says  his  lordship,  *  is  now  settled 
upon  so  kAgbx  «  foundatioii,  that  no  man  can 
hesitate  how  far  he  is  to  obey,  or  doubt  ufOB 
wliat  occasions  he  if  to  resist.  Conscience 
can  no  loncer  battle  with  the  understandii^: 
we  know  &at  we  are  to  defend  the  €iowi> 
with  our  lives  and  fortunes,  «t  Imtg  ea  the 
crown  protects  us.  and  keeps  strict^  to  the 
bounds  within  .which  the  laws  have  coii^ 
fined  it.  We  know,  likewise,  thatwe  ate  to 
do  it  no  lon^J 
Having  finished  three  volumes  of  masterly 
and  eloouent  disaissions  on  our  govemmeni* 
be  concludes,  with  stating  the  duty  impoaed 


917] 


for  a  SedUious  Libel. 


ea  0vei!y  enlightened  ttiind  to  insiruct  ike 
peopk  on  the  principles  of  our  government, 
iiL  the  following  animated  passage :   *  The 

*  whole  tendency  of  these  discourses  is  to  in- 
f  culcate  a  rational  idea  of  the  nature  of  our 
^  free  government  into  the  minds  of  all  my 

*  ooimtiymen,  and  to  prevent  the  fatal  conse- 
'  ^iaance  of  those  slavish  principles,  which  are 
^  industriously  propagalea  Uirough  the  kine- 
^  dom,  by  wicked  and  designing  men.    He 

*  who  labours  to  blind  the  people,  and  to  keep 
^  them  from  instruction  on  those  momentous 
'  sulnects,  raa^  be  justly  suspected  of  sedition 
'aoa  disaffection;  but  he  who  makes  it  his 
^  busjoess  to  open  the  imderstandings  of  man- 

*  kind,  by  laying  before  them  the  true  prin- 

*  ciples  of  their  government,  cuts  up  all  fac- 
^  tion  by  the  roots ;  for  it  cannot  but  interest 

*  the  people  in  the  preservation  of  their  con- 
^  stitntbn,  when  they  know  its  excellence 
'  and  its  wisdom.' 

'  But,'  says  Mr.  Bearcroft,  again  and  aeain, 

*  are  the  multitude  to  be  told  all  this?'  1  say 
as  often  on  my  part,  yes.  I  say^  that  nothing 
can  preserve  the  jgovernment  of  this  free  ana 
b^py  country,  m  which  under  the  blessing 
of  God  we  Uve;**that  nothing  can  make  it 
endure  to  all  (uture  ages,  but  its  excellence 
and  its  wisdom  bdne  known,  not  only  to  you 
and  the  hieher  ranks  of  men,  who  may  be 
overborne  by  a  contetitious  multitude,  but 
also  to  the  great  body  of  the  people,  by  disse- 
minating among  them  the  true  principles  on 
which  it  .is  estabUshed;  which  show  them, 
that  they  are  not  the  hewers  of  wood  and  the 
drawers  of  water  to  men  who  avail  themselves 
o/  their  labour  and  industry ; — but  that  go- 
iremment  is  a  trutt  proceeding  from  themselves ; 
—an  wuu^tion  from  their  own  strength ; — 
a  benefit  and  a  blessing,  which  has  stood  the 
test  of  ages ; — ^that  they  are  governed  because 
they  desire  to  be  governed,  and  yield  a  volun- 
tary obedience  to  the  laws,  because  the  laws 
protect  tiiem  in  the  hberties  they  enjoy. 

Upon  these  principles  I  assert  with  men 
of  all  denominations  and  parties,  v^ho  have 
written  on  the  subject  of  free  governments, 
^t  tills  Dialogue,  so  far  from  misrepresent- 
ing or  endangering  the  constitution  of  Eng- 
land, disaeminaies  obedience  and  afiection  to 
it  as  far  as  it  reaches ;  and  that  the  oompa- 
riaon  of  the  great  political  institutions  with 
iiie  little  cluo  in  tne  village,  is  a  decisive 
mark  of  the  honest  intention  of  its  author. 

Does  a  man  rebel  against  the  president  of 
his  dab  while  he  fulfils  his  trust  f — No :  be- 
cause he  is  of  his  own  appointment,  and  act- 
ing for  his  comfort  and  benefit. — ^This  safe 
aid  ample  analogy,  lying  within  the  reach 
of  e^ery  understanding,  is  therefore  adopted 
by  the  scholar  as  the  vehicle  of  instruction ; 
who.  wishing  the  peasant  to  be  sensible  of 
tiie  happy  government  of  this  country,  and  to 
be  acquainted  with  the  deep  stake  he  has  in 
its  preservation,  truly  tells  him,  that  a  nation 
ia  but  a  great  club,  eovemed  by  the  same 
emmait^  and  supported  by  the  same  voluntary 


A.  D.  1763.  [918 

compact;  impressineupon  his  mind  the  great 
theory  of  putuic  freedom,  by  the  most  tami- 
liar  allusions  to  the  little  but  delightful  inter^ 
courses  of  social  life,  by  which  men  derive 
those  benefits,  that  come  home  the  nearest  to 
their  bosoms. 

Such  is  the  wise  and  innocent  scope  of  this 
Dialogue,  which,  afUr  it  had  been  repeatedly 
pubiiMied  without  censure,  and  without  mis- 
chief, under  tlie  public  eye  of  sovemment  in 
the  capital,  is  gravely  supposea  to  have  been 
circulated  by  my  reverend  friend  many  months 
aflerwards,  with  a  malignant  purpose  to  over- 
turn the  monarchy  by  an  armed  rebellion. 

G«itlem%n,  if  the  absurdity  of  such  a  con- 
clusion, from  the  scope  of  the  Dialogue  itself, 
.were  not  self-evident,  I  might  render  it  more 
glarine  by  adverting  to  the  condition  of  the 
publbner — ihe  affectionate  son  of  a  reverend 
prelate*  not  more  celebrated  for  his  genius 
and  learning  than  for  his  warm  attachment 
to  the  constitution,  and  in  the  direct  road  to 
the  highest  honours  and  emoluments  of  that 
very  church,  which,  when  the  montyrchy  falls, 
must  be  buned  in  its  ruins : — nay,  the  pub- 
Usher  a  dignitary  of  the  same  church  himself 
at  an  early  period  of  his  life,  and  connected 
in  friendship  with  those,  who  have  the  dearest 
stakes  in  the  preservation  of  the  government, 
and  who,  if  it  continues,  may  raise  him  to  all 
the  ambitions  of  his  profession. — I  cannot 
therefore  forbear  from  wishing  that  some- 
body, in  the  happy  moments  of  fancy,  would 
be  so  obUging  as  to  invent  a  reason,  in  com- 
passion to  our  dulness,  why  my  reverend 
friend  should  aim  at  Uie  destruction  of  the 
present  establishment;  since  you  cannot  but 
see,  that  the  moment  he  succeeded,  down 
comes  his  father's  mitre,  which  leans  upon  the 
crown ; — ^away  goes  his  own  deanery,  with  ail 
the  rest  of  his  Mnefices ;  and  neither  you  nor 
I  (have  heard  anv  evidence  to  enable  us  to 
ffuess  what  he  is  looking  for  in  their  room.-^ 
In  the  face  nevertheless  ^of  all  these  absurdi- 
ties, and  without  a  colour  of  evidence  from 
his  character  or  conduct  in  any  part  of  his 
Ufe,  he  is  accused  of  sedition,  and  under  the 
false  pretence  of  public  justice,  dragged  out 
of  his  own  countiy,  depnved  of  that  trial  by 
his  neighbours,  which  is  the  h^ht  of  the 
meanest  man  who  hears  me,  and  arraigned 
before  you^  who  are  strangers  to  those  public 
virflies  which  would  in  themselves  be  an  an- 
swer to  this  malevolent  accusation.-— But 
when  I  mark  your  sensibility  and  justice  in 
the  anxious  attention  you  are  bestowing, 
when  I  reflect  upon  your  characters,  and 
observe  from  the  pannel  (though  I  am  per- 
sonallv  unknown  to  you)  that  you  are  men 
of  rsmk  in  this  county,  I  know  how  these  cir- 
cumstances of  injustice  will  operate,  aiid  free- 
ly- forgive  the  prosecutor  for  having  fled  from 
his  onginal  triounal. 

Gentlemen,  I  come  now  to  a  point  verv 
material  for  your  consideration; — on  which 

*  J^r.  Shipley,  then  bishop  of  St.  Auipli. 


«19] 


33  GEORGE  III.     Proceedings  agamtl  the  Dean  of  Sk.  A$afk^     [980 


even  my  learned  (Hend  and  I,  who  are  brought 
here  for  the  express  purpose  of  disagreeing  in 
every  thing,  can  avow  no  difference  of  opi- 
nion ; — on  which  judges  of  old  and  of  modem 
"times,  and  lawyers  otall  interests  and  parties, 
have  ever  agreed;  namely,  that  even  if  this 
innocent  paper  were  admitted  to  be  a  libel, 
the  publication  would  not  be  criminal,  if  you, 
the  jury,  saw  reason  to  believe  that  it  was  not 
published  by  the  dean  with  a  criminal  itdenr 
tion.  It  is  true,  that  if  a  paper  containing 
a^itious  and  tib^ous  inatter  be  publisheo, 
'the  publisher  is  prmAfade  guilty  of  sedition, 
the  iMid  intention  being  a  l^al  inference  from 
-the  act  of  publishing :  but  it  is  equally  true, 
that  he  may  rebut  that  inference,  by  showing 
that  he  published  it  innocently. 

This  was  declared  by  lord  Mansfield,  in  the 
jcase  of  the  Kins  and  Woodfall  :*  where  his 
lordship  said,  tnat  the  fact  of  publication 
would  m  that  instance  have  constituted  guilt, 
if  the  paper  was  a  libel :  because  the  defen- 
^dant  had  given  no  evidence  to  the  jury  to  re- 
pel the  l^gal  inference  of  guilt,  as  arising  from 
the  publication  ;  but  he  said  at  the  same  time, 
in  the  words  that  I  shall  read  to  you,  that 
such  legal  inference  might  be  repelled  by 
proof. 

'  There  may  be  cases  where  the  fiict  of  the 
■*  pubtication  even  of  a  libel  may  be  justified 
^  or  excused  as  lawful  or  innocent;  for  do 
'  fiu:t  ^ich  is  not  criminal,  even  though  the 
*  paper  be  a  libel,  can  amount  to  a  pubUca^ 
<  tion  of  which  a  defendant  ought  to  be  found 
^  guihy.' 

I  read  these  words  from  Burrow's  Reports, 
published  under  the  eye  of  the  court,  and 
they  open  to  me  a  decisive  defence  of  the 
dean  or  St.  Asaph  upon  the  present  occasion, 
and  give  you  an  evident  jurisdiction  to  ac(|uit 
him,  even  if  the  law  upon  libels  were~as  it  is 
laid  down  to  you  by  Mr.  Bearcrofi :  for  if  I 
Bhow  you,  tliat  the  publication  arose  firom 
motives  that  were  innocent^  and  not  seditious, 
he  is  not  a  criminal  publisher,  even  if  the 
Dialogue  wero  a  libel,  and,  accordine  even  to 
lord  Mansfield,  ought  not  to  be  found  guil^. 

The  dean  of  St.  Asaph  was  one  of  a  great 
many  respectable  gentlemen,  who,  impressed 
with  the  dangers  impending  over  the  public 
credit  of  the  nation  exhausted  by  a  long  war, 
and  pppressed  with  grievous  taxes,  formed 
themselves  into  a  committee,  according  to 
the  example  of  other  coimties,  to  petition  the 
legislature  to  observe  great  caution  in  the  ex- 

1>enditure  of  the  public  money.f    This  Diau 
ogue,  written  by  sir  WiUiam  Jones,  a  near  re. 

•  Vol.  20,  p.  «95. 

t  See,  too,  t^  Speech  of  »r  Pletcber  Norton, 
Speaker  of  the  Houae  of  CoiQingns,  to  tlie  King^  on 
May  7lh,  1777,  New  Pari.  Hi»t.  Vol.19,  p.  213 ; 
the  Speech  of  Mr.  Rigby,  p.  234 ;  and  the  debate  in 
the  House  of  Commons  on  the  Kaid  Speech  of  air 
Fletcher  Norton,  pp.  227  et  seq.  of  the  same  Volame. 
Sfie  also  the  conyersation  which  took  place  in  the 
IfoQse  of  Commons,  March  13,  1780,  New  Pvi. 
jlist  Vpl.  91,  p.  2^3. 


lation  of  the  dean  by  mami^  was  either 
smt,  or  found  its  way  to  him  m  tiie  oourae  of 
pubhc  circulation. — He  knew  the  character  of 
theauthor;  he  had  no  reason  to  suspect  him 
of  sedition  or  disaffection;  and  believed  it 
to  be,  what  I  at  this  hour  believe,  and  have 
represented  it  to  you,  a  plain,  easy  manner  of 
showing  the  people  the  great  interest  they 
had  in  petitioning  parliament  for  refomis  be- 
neficial to  the  public.  It  was  accordingly  the 
opinion  of  the  Flintshire  committee,  and  not 
particularly  of  the  dean  as  an  individual,  that 
the  Diabeiie  should  be  translated  into  Wdsh, 
and  published.  It  was  accordingly  delivered, 
at  the  desire  of  the  committ^  to  a  Mr. 
Jones,  for  the  purpose  of  translation. — This 
gentleman,  who  wui  be  called  as  a  witness, 
told  the  dean  a  few  days  afterwards,  that 
there  were  persons,  not  indeed  from  thcar  veal 
sentiments,  but  from  spleen  and  opposition, 
who  represented  it  as  likely  to  do  mischief, 
from  ignorance  and  misconception,  if  trans- 
lated and  circulated  in  Wales. 

Now,  what  would  have  been  the  language 
of  the  defendant  upon  this  communication,  if 
his  purpose  had  been  that  which  is  charged 
upon  him  by  the  indictment?  He  would 
have  said,  *  If-  what  ybu  tell  me  is  weil- 
'  founded,  haOen  the  publication ;  I  am  sure  I 
^  shall  never  raise  discontent  here,  by  the  dia- 

*  semination  of  such  a  pamphlet  in  F.iwH^ . 

*  thereibre  let  it  be  instantly  translated,  if  the 
'  ignorant  inhabitants  of  the  mountaina  are 
^  lucely  to  collect  fit>m  itthatitis  time  to  take 
'  up  arms.' 

But  Mr.  Jones  will  tell  you,  that,  on  the 
contrary,  the  instant  he  sugrated  that  such 
an  idea,  absurd  and  unfotuSed  as  he  feit  it, 
had  presented  itself,  from  an^r  motives^  to  the 
mina  of  any  man,  the  dean,  impressed  as  he 
was  with  its  innocence  and  its  safiety,  instant- 
ly acquiesced ; — he  recalled,  even  on  his  own 
authority,  the  intended  publication  by  the 
committee ;  and  it  never  was  translated  into 
the  Welsh  tongue  at  all. 
.  Here  the  dean's  conneption  with  this  I>ia- 
logue  would  have  «ideaj  if  Mr.  Fitzmaurice, 
who  never  lost  any  occasion  of  de&ming  and 
misrepresenting  him,  had  not  thought  fit, 
near  three  months  after  the  idea  pf  transla- 
tion was  abandoned,  to  reprobate  and  con- 
demn the  dean's  conduct  at  the  public  meet> 
ings  of  the  coilnty  in  the  severest  terms,  for 
his  former  intention  of  circulatuig  the  ]>ia- 
logue  in  Welsh, — declaring  that  its  doctrines 
were'fedi^iotif,  treasonable^  and  repugmmni  to 
the  princ^let  of  our  government. 

It  was  upon  this  occasion  that  the  dean, 
naturally  anxious  to  redeem  his  character 
from  the  unjust  aspersions  of  having  intended 
to  undermine  the  constitution  of  his  country, 
—conscious  that  the  epithets  applied  to  the*  ^ 
Dialogue  were  false  and  unfounded, — and 
thinkmg  that  the  production  of  it  wouU  be 
the  most  decisive  refutation  of  the  groundless 
calumny  cast  upon  him,  directed  a  few  Eng- 
lish copies  of  it  to  be  published  in  vipdinlinn 


921] 


for  a  Seditious  LibeL 


A.  D^  1783. 


[922 


of  his  former  opinions  and  intentions^  prefix- 
ing an  advertisOTient  to  it,  which  plainly 
marks  the  spiiit  in  which  he  published  it :  for 
he  there  complains  of  the  injurious  misrepre- 
{sentations  I  nave  adverted  to,  and  impressed 
with  the  sincerest  conviction  of  the  inno- 
cence, or  rather  the  merit  of  the  Dialogue, 
makes  his  appeal  to  the  friends  of  the  Revolu- 
tion in  his  justification. 

[JWr.  Erskine  here  read  to  the  Jury  the  ad- 
vertisemeni  as  prefixed  to  the  Dialogue.] 

Now,  gentlemen,  if  you  shall  believe  upon 
the  evidence  of  the  witness  to  these  iacts, 
and  of  the  advertisement  prefixed  to  the  pub- 
licataon  itself  (which  is  artfully  kept  back,  and 
fiorms  no  part  of  the  indictment),  that  the 
dean,  upon  the  authority  of  sir  William  Jones 
who  wrote  it,— of  the  other  great  writers  on 
the  principles  of  our  government^ — and  of  the 
histoiy  of  the  country  itself,  really  thought  the 
Dialogue  innocent  and  meritorious,  and  that 
his  single  purpose  in  publishing  the  Enelish 
copies,  after  the  Welsh  edition  lud  been  aban- 
doned, was  the  vindication  of  his  character 
from  the  imputation  of  sedition, — then  he  is 
!M>t  guilty  upon  this  indictment,  which  charges 
the  TOibhcation  with  a  wicked  intent  to  excite 
disansctbn  to  the  king^  and  rebellion  against 
his  government. 

Actus  non  J^acU  reum  nisi  mens  sit  rea^  is 
the  sreat  maxim  of  penal  justice,  and  stands 
at  the  top  of  the  cnminal  pa^,  in  every  vo- 
lume of  our  humaiie  and  sensible  laws. — ^The 
hostile  mind  is  the  crime  which  it  is  your 
duty  to  decipher; — ^a  duty«which  I  am*  sure 
yrou  wiU  dischai^e  with  the  charity  of  Chris- 
tians ; — refiisuiK  to  adopt  a  harsh  and  cruel 
construction,  when  one  that  is  fiur  and  ho- 
nourable is  more  reconcilable,  not  only  with 
all  probabilities,  but  with  the  evidence  which 
you  are  ^ worn  to  make  the  foundation  of  your 
verdict. — The  prosecutor  rests  on  tiie  single 
fact  of  publication,  without  the  advertise- 
ment, and  without  being  able  to  cast  an  im- 
putation upon  the  defendant's  conduct;-— or 
.even  an  observation  to  assign  a  motive  to  give 
verisimilitude  to  the  charge. 

Gentlemen,  af^  the  len^  of  time, 
which,  very  contrary  to  my  inclination,  I 
.have  detained  you,  I  am  sure  you  will  be 
happy  to  hear,  that  there  is  but  one  other 
point  to  which  my  duty  obliges  me  to  direct 
your  attention. — I  shoiud,  perhaps,  have  said 
nothing  more  concerning  tne  particular  pro- 
vince of  a  iurv  upon  this  occasion,  than  ihe 
little  I  touched  upon  it  at  the  beginning,  if  my 
friend  Mr.  Bearcroft  had  not  compelled  me 
to  it,  by  drawing  a  line  around  you,  saying  (I 
hope  with  the  same  effect  that  king  Canute 
said  to  the  sea),  ^  Thus  far  shalt  &ou  go." 
But  since  he  has  thought  proper  to  coop  you 
in,  it  is  my  business  to  let  you  out :— and  to 
give  the  greater  weight  to  what  I  am  about 
.to  say  to  you,  I  have  no  objection  that  every 
•thing  which  I  may  utter  shall  be  considered 
-as  proceeding  from  my  own  private  opinions ; 


and  that  not  onlv  my  professioad  character^ . 
but  my  more  valuable  reputation  as  a  man, 
may  stand  or  fall  by  the  orinciples  which  I 
shall  lay  down  for  the  reguliation  of  your  judg- 
ments. 

This  is  certainly  a  bold  thing.to  say,  since 
what  I  am  about  to  deliver  may  clash  in  some 
degree  (though  certainly  it  will  not  through^ 
out)  with  the  decision  of  a  great  and  reverend 
judge,  who  has  administered  the  justice  of 
this  country  for  above  half  a  century  with 
singular  advantage  to  the  public,  and  distin^ 
guished  reputation  to  himself;  but  whose  ex- 
traordinarv  faculties  and  general  integrity, 
which  I  should  be  lost  to  all  s^sibility  and 
justice  if  I  did  not  acknowledge  with  rever- 
ence and  afiection,  could  not  protect  him  from 
severe  animadversion  when  he  appeared  as 
the  supporter  of  those  doctrines  which  I  am 
about  to  controverts  I  shall  certainly  never 
join  in  the  calumny  that  followed  them,  be- 
cause I  believe  he  acted  upon  that,  as  upon 
all  other  occasions,  with  the  strictest  integ- 
rity ;-— an  admission  which  it  is  my  duty  to 
make,  which  I  render  with  great  satisfaction, 
and  which  proves  nothine  more,  than  that 
the  greatest  of  men  are  faUible  in  their  judg- 
ments, and  warns  us  to  judge  from  the  es- 
sences of  thiogs,  and  not  from  the  authority 
of  names,  however  imposing. 

GenUemen,  the  opimon  I  allude  to  is,  that 
libel  or  not  libel  is  a  question  of  lam  for  the 
judge,  your  jurisdiction  being  confined  to  the 
fact  ^publication.  And  if  this  were  all  that 
was  meant  by  the  position  (thou^  I  could 
never  admit  it  to  be  consonant  with  reason 
or  law),  it  would  not  a£fect  me  in  the  present 
instance,  since  all  that  it  would  amount  to 
would  be,  that  the  judge,  and  not  you,  would 
deliver  the  only  opmion  which  can  be  deli- 
yered  from  that  quarter  upon  this  subject. 
But  what  I  am  afraid  of  upon  this  occasion 
is,  that  neither  of  you  are  to  five  it;  for  so 
my  fiiend  has  expressly  put  it.  '  My  lord/ 
sajrs  he,  5  will  probabfy  not  give  you  his  opi- 
'  nion  whether  it  be  a  hbel  or  not,  because,  as 
*  he  will  tell  you,  it  is  a  miestion  open  upon 
^  the  record,  and  that  if  Mr.  Erskine  thinks 
'  the  publication  innocent,  he  may  move  to 
'  arrest  the  judgment.' .  Now  this  is  the  most 
artful  and  the  most  mortal  stab  that  can  be 
given  to  justice,  and  to  my  innocent  client. — 
All  I  wish  for  is,  that  the  judgment  of  the 
Court  should  be  a  guide  to  yours  in  deter- 
mining, whether  this  pamphlet  be  or  be  not 
a  libel; — because,  knowing  the  scope  of  the 
learned  judge's  understanding  ana  profes- 
sional ability,  I  have  a  moral  certain^  that 
his  opinion  would  be  favourable.— If  there- 
fore hbel  or  no  libel  be  a  question  of  law,  as 
is  asserted  by  Mr.  Bearcrof^  I  call  for  his 
lordship's  judgment  upon  that  question,  ac- 
cording to  the  regular  course  of  all  trials, 
where  the  law  ana  the  fact  are  blended ;  in 
all  which  cases  the  notorious  office  of  the 
judge  is  to  instruct  the  consciences  of  the 
Jury^  to  draw  a  correct  legal  coaqluaiofi  from 


923} 


2t  GEORGE  III.     Procredings  against  ike  DeM  of  St.  Auipk^    [924 


the  ftctt  in  evidmoe  befi^re  them.  A  jury 
tre  DO  more  bound  to  return  a  special  veniict 
In  cases  of  libel,  than  upon  other  trials  crimi- 
nal  and  cLviL  where  law  is  mixed  with  fact : — 
they  are  to  find  generally  upon  both^  receiv* 
ing,  as  they  constantly  do  in  every  court  at 
V^tminsier,  the  opinion  of  the  judge  both 
^)ii  the  evidence  and  the  law. 

Say  the  contrary  who  will,  I  assert  this  to 
be  the  genuine,  unrepealed  constitution  of 
England ;  and  therefore,  if  the  learned  judee 
shall  tell  you  that  this  jMimphlet  is  in  the  aJ^ 
stract  a  ubel ;  though  I  shall  not  ag^ee  that 
you  are  therefore  hound  to  find  the  £fendant 
guilty  unless  you  think  so  likewise,  yet  1  ad- 
mit nis  opinion  ought  to  have  very  great 
weight  with  ^ou,  and  that  you  should  not 
rasniy,  nor  without  great  consideration,  eo 
against  it — ^But  if  you  are  only  to  find  the 
^ad  of  puhlishinf,  which  is  not  even  disputed ; 
'and  the  judge  is  to  tell  you,  that  the  matter 
bf  libel  beinjg  on  the  record,  he  tkaU  shut  kirn- 
u^up  in  iiUncCf  and  give  no  opinion  at  all  a$ 
to  the  libellout  and  seditious  tendency  of  the 
paper,  and  yet  shall  nevertheless  expect  you  to 
affix  the  epithet  of  guilty  to  the  publication  of 
a  thing,  the  guilt  of  tchick  you  are  jforbid, 
and  BE  refuses  to  examine ;— -miserable  indeed 
is  the  condition  into  which  we  are  &llen! 
Since  if  you,  following  such  directions,  bring 
in  a  verdict  of  Guilty,  without  finding  the 

Sublication  to  be  a  libel,  or  the  publisher  se- 
itious;  and  I  afterwards,  in  mitigaUon  of 
imnishment,  shall  apply  to  that  humanity 
and  mercy  which  is  never  deaf,  when  it  can 
be  addressed  ccmsistently  with  the  law;  I 
ahall  be  tdd  in  the  language  I  before  put  in 
the  mouths  of  the  Judges,  ^  You  are  estop- 
'  ped,  Sir,  by  the  verdict :  we  cannot  hear 
^  you  say  your  client  was  mistaken,  but  wot 
'guilty;  fgr,  had  that  been  the  opinion  of 

*  the  jury,  they  had  a  jurisdiction  to  acquit 

*  him/ 

Such  is  the  way  in  which  the  liberties  of 
Englishmen  are  by  this  new  doctrine  to  be 
shuffled  about  from  jury  to  court,  without 
Imving  any  solid  foundation  to  rest  on.  I 
call  this  the  effect  of  new  doctrines,  because  I 
do  not  find  them  supported  by  that  current  of 
ancientprecedents wnich constitutes  Engli^ 
law. — Tne  history  6f  seditious  libels  is  per- 
haps one  of  the  most  interesting  subiects 
which  can  i^tate  a  court  of  justice,  and  ray 
friend  thought  it  prudent  to  touch  but  very 
lightly  upon  it. 

We  all  know,  that  by  the  immemorial 
usage  of  this  country,  no  man  in  a  criounal 
case  could  ever  be  compelled  to  plead  a  spe- 
ckd  plea; — for  although  our  ancestors  settled 
an  accurate  boundary  oetween  law  and  fact, 
obligine  the  party  defendant  who  could  not 
deny  the  latter  to  show  his  justification  to 
the  court ;  yet  a  man  accused  of  a  crime  had 
always  a  right  to  throw  himself  by  a  general 
plea  upon  the  Justice  of  his  peers;  and  on 
such  geueral  isbue,  his  evidence  to  the  jury 
might  ever  be  as  broad  and  general  as  if  hie 


had  pleaded  a  special  juslificatioo.  The  ita* 
son  of  this  distinction  is  obvious. — The  rights 
of  piopoty  depend  opoo  various  intricate 
rales,  which  require  miioi  learning  to  adjust^ 
and  much  preciskm  to  eive  them  stalmify ; 
but  CRIMES  consist  ndiol^  in  intention;  imd 
of  that  which  passes  in  the  breast  of  an  £d§- 
lishman  as  the  motives  of  his  actions,  none 
Uit  an  English  jmy  shall  judge.  It  isthere- 
fore  impos^ble,  in  most  criminal  cas^s,  to 
separate  law  from  fact;  and  consequently 
whether  a  writing  be  or  be  not  a  libel,  never 
can  be  an  abstract  legal  que$tum  for  pidga.— 
And  this  position  is  proved  by  the  immem*- 
rial  practiceof  courts,  the  forms  of  which  are 
founded  upon  legal  reasoning ;  for  that  very 
hbel,  over  which  it  seems  you  are  not  to  en- 
tertain any  jurisdiction,  is  always  read,  and 
ohen  delivered  to  you  out  of  court  for  your 
con»deiation. 

The  administration  of  criininal  justice  in 
the  hands  of  the  people,  is  the  basis  of  all 
freedom. — While  that  remains  there  can  be 
no  tyranny,  because  the  peo|^  will  not  eze* 
cute  tyrannical  laws  on  tneinselves. — When* 
ever  it  b  lost,  Uberty  must  foil  aion^  with  it, 
because  the  sword  of  justice  fidls  mto  tfae 
hands  of  men,  who,  however  independent, 
have  no  common  interest  with  the  mass  of 
the  people. — Our  whole  history  is  therefore 
chequered  with  the  struggles  of  our  ancestors 
to  maintain  this  important  privilq^  iHiich 
in  cases  of  libel  has  been  too  often  a  shame* 
fol  and  disgraceful  subject  of  controversy. 

The  ancient  government  of  this  countiy 
not  being  fiNmrnd,  like  the  modem,  mm 
public  consent  and  opinion,  but  supported  by 
ancient  superstitions,  and  the  lash  of  power, 
saw  the  seeds  of  its  destruction  in  a  free 
press.  Printing  therefore,  imon  the  revival 
of  letters,  when  the  lights  of^  philosophy  led 
to  the  detection  of  prescriptive  usurpations, 
was  considered  as  a  matter  of  state,  and  sub- 
iected  to  the  controul  of  licensers  appointed 
by  the  crown:  and  although  our  ancestors 
had  stipulated  by  JVfagna  Charta,  that  no 
freeman  should  m  judged  but  by  his  peers, 
the  courts  of  Star-chamber  and  HighComr 
mission,  consisting  of  privy  counselkns  erect- 
ed durinff  pleasure,  opposed  themselves  to 
that  fooecKmi  of  conscience  and  dvil  opimoo, 
which*  even  then  were  laying  the  foundations 
of  the  Revolution. — ^Whoever  wrote  on  the 
principles  of  government  was  pilloried  in  the 
Star-cnamber,  and  whoever  exposed  the  errors 
of  a  folse  religion  was  persecuted  in  the  Com- 
mission court— But  no  power  can  supersede 
the  privileges  of  men  in  society,  when  once 
the  hghts  of  learning  and  fcience  have  arisea 
amongst  than. — The  prerogatives  which 
former  princes  exercised  with  safety,  and  even 
with  popularity,  were  not  to  be  tolerated  in 
the  days  of  the  first  Charles,  and  our  ances- 
tors insisted  that  these  arbitrary  tribunals 
should  be  abolished.— Why  did  they  insist 
upon  their  abolition  P— Was  it  that  the  ques- 
tion of  libel,  which  was  their  piindpal  juxi*- 


925] 


Jhr  a  SeditioUi  Lihd., 


A,D.  1783. 


[930 


diction^  should  be  detenrnned  only  by  the 
judges  at  Westminster? — In  the  present 
times  even  such  a  reform,  though  very  de- 
fective, might  be  consistent  with  reason^  be- 
cause tiie  judges  are  now,  honourable,  mde- 
S indent,  ana  si^icious  men;  but  in  those 
ys  they  were  onen  wretches, — ^libels  upon 
all  judicature ; — and  instead  of  admirine  the 
wisdom  of  our  ancestors,  if  that  had  oeen 
l)icir  policy,  I  should  have  held  them  up  as 
lunatics,  to  the  scoff  of  posterit}[ ;  since  in 
the  times  when  these  unconstitutional  tribu- 
nals were  supplanted,  the  courts  of  Westmin- 
ster-hall were  filled  with  men  who  were 
rquallv  the  tools  of  power  with  those  in  the 
Star-chamber ; — and  the  whole  policy  of  the 
change  consisted  in^hat  principle,  which  was 
then  never  disputed,  viz.  That  the  judges  at 
Westminster  in  criminal  cases  were  but  a  part 
of  the  court,  and  cQuld  onl^  administer  justice 
through  the  medium  of  a  lury. 

When  the  people,  by  the  aid  of  an  upright 
parliament,  had  thus  succeeded  in  reviving 
the  constitutional  trial  by  the  country,  the 
next  course  tftken  hy  the  ministers  of  the 
crown,  was  to  pollute  what  they  could  not 
destroy w — Sherins  devoted  to  power  were  ap- 
pointed, and  corrupt  juries  packed  to  sacrifice 
the  rights  of  their  fellow  citizens,  under  the 
mask  of  a  popular  trial.  This  was  practised 
bv  Charles  the  second ;  and  was  maae  one  of 
the  chfu^cs  against  king  James,  for  which  he 
was  expdled  the  kingdom. 

When  juries  could  not  be  found  to  their 
minds,  judges  were  daring  enough  to  brow- 
beat the  iurors,  and  to  dictate  to  them  what 
thev  called  the  law ;  and  in  Charles  the 
second's  time  an  attempt  was  made,  which, 
if  it  had  proved  successlid,  would  have  been 
decisive. — In  the  ^ear  1670  Penn  and  Mead,* 
two  Quakers,  bemg  indicted  for  tedifiomly 
preaching  to  a  multitude  tumuUtunahf  assem- 
bled in  Giacechurch-street,  were  tried  before 
the  recorder  of  London,  who  told  the  jury 
that  they  had  nothing  to  do  but  to  find  whe- 
ther the  defendants  had  preached  or  not ;  for 
that,  whether  the  matter  or  the  intention  of 
their  preachins  were  seditious,  were  ques- 
tions of  law  ana  not  of  fact,  which  they  were 
to  keep  to  at  their  peril.  The  jury,  aAcr 
some  debate,  found  Penn  guilty  of  speaking 
to  people  in  Gracechurch-street;  and  on  the 
recorder's  telling  them  that  they  meant,  no 
Uoubt,  that  he  was  speaking  to  a  tumult  of 
people  there ;  he  was  informed  by  the  fore- 
man, that  thev  allowed  of  no  such  words  in 
their  finding,  but  adhered  to  their  former  ver- 
dict.— The  recorder  refused  to  receive  it,  and 
desired  them  to  withdraw,  on  which  they 
asain  retired  and  brought  in  a  general  verdict 
of  acquittal ;  which  the  court  considering  as 
a  contempt,  set  a  fine  of  forty  marks  upon 
each  of  tnem,  and  condemned  them  to  lie  in 
prison  till  it  was  paid. — Edward  Bushel,*  one 


*  See  their  Case  in  this  Coiiection,  Vol.  6,  p. 
999. 

t  See  Ills  CaM  in  this  CoIleclioB,  Vul.  6,  p.  951. 


of  the  jurors  Tto  whom  we  are  alihost  as 
much  indebted  as  to  Mr.  Hampden,  who 
brought  the  case  of  Ship  Money*  before  the 
court  of  Exchequer)  refused  to  pay  his  fine, 
and,  being  imprisoned  in  consequence  of  the 
reiusal,  sued  out  his  writ  of  Habeas  Corpus^ 
which,  with  the  cause  of  his  commitment 
(viM,  hit  refuting  to  find  according  to  the  di- 
rection of  the  court  in  matter  of  law),  was 
returned  by  the  sheriffs  of  London  to  the 
court  of  Common  Pleas;  when  lord  cl^ef 
iustice  Vaughan,  to  his  immortal  honour,  de- 
livered his  opinion  as  follows : — *  We  must 
'  take  off  this  veil  and  colour  of  words,  which  ■ 
'  make  a  show  of  being;  something,  but  are  Id 

*  fact  nothing.  If  the  meaning  of  these 
'  words,  finding  againtt  the  direction  of  tha 

*  court  in  matter  m  law,  be,  that  if  the  judge,    • 

*  having  heard  tne  evidence  given  in  court 

*  (for  he  knows  no  other),  shall  tell  tlie  jury 
'  upon  this  evidence,  that  the  law  is  for  the 
'  crown,  and  they,  under  the  pain  of  fine  and 
'  imprisonment,  are  to  find  accordingly ; 
'  every  man  sees  that  the  jury  is  but  a  trou- 

*  blesome  delay,  great  charge,  and  of  no  use 
'  in  determining  right  and  wrong ;  and  there* 
'  fore  the  trials  by  them  may  be  better  abo« 
'  lished  than  continued ;  which  were  a  strange 
'  and  new-found  conclusion,  after  a  trial  so 
'  celebrated  for  many  himdreds  of  years  in 
'  this  country/ 

He  then  applied  this  sound  doctrine  with 
double  force  to  criminal  cases,  and  discharged 
the  upright  juror  from  his  illegal  commit* 
ment. 

This  determination  of  the  right  ofjuries  to 
find  a  general  verdict  was  never  afterwards 
questioned  bv  succeeding  judges ;  not  even 
in  the  great  Case  of  the  Seven  Bishops,t  on 
which  the  dispensing  power  and  the  personal 
fate  of  king  James  himself  in  a  great  mc»» 
sure  depended. 

These  conscientious  prelates  were,  you 
know,  imprisoned  in  the  Tower,  and  prose- 
cuted by  information  for  having  petitioned 
kin^  James  the  second  to  be  excused  from 
reading  in  their  churches  the  declaration  <tf 
indulgence,  which  he  had  published  contrary 
to  law. — ^The  trial  was  had  at  the  bar  of  the 
court  of  King's-bench,  when  the  Attorney 
General  of  that  day,  rather  more  perempto- 
rily than  my  learned  fnend  (who  Ls  much 
better  qualified  for  that  office,  and  whom  I 
should  be  glad  to  see  in  it),  told  the  jury, 
that  they  had  nothing  to  do  hit  with  the  barg 
fact  of  publication,  and  said  he  should  there^ 
fore  make  no  answer  to  the  argui^ents  of  the 
bishops'  counsel,  as  to  whether  the  petition 
was  or  was  not  a  libel.  But  chief  justice 
Wright  Tno  fiiend  to  the  liberty  of  the  sub- 
ject, ana  with  whom  I  should  be  as  much 
ashamed  to  compare  my  lord,  as  Mr.  Bear- 
croft  to  that  Attorney  General)  interrupted 
him,  and  said,  *  Yes,  Mr.  Attorney,  I  will  teli 

♦  See  Vol.  3.  p.  825. 

t  See  Iheir  Cast;  in  this  Colleotion,  Vol.   If,  p. 
'  18.1. 


9gr\  2S  GEORGE  III.     Proceedingt  against  the  Dean  of  St.  Asaph^     \93S 

*  you  what  tliey  offers  wkkk  it  wU  lie  upon. 

*  you  to  entwer  :  they  would  have  y ou^  show 

*  the  juiy  kotfi  tkis  petition  has  ditturbed  the 
^  gooemment,  or  diminiihed  the  king's  autho- 

*  rkju*  So  say  I.  I  would  have  Mr.  Bear- 
don  show  vouy  eendemeiiy  how  this  Dialogue 
h&s  disturped  &e  king's  goreroment, — ex- 
died  disloyalty  and  disaffection  to  his  person, 
-^and  stirred  up  disorders  within  these  king- 
doins. 

Ib  the  case  of  the  Bishops,  Mr.  Justice 

Powell  followed  the  Chief  Justice,  saying  to 

the  jury,  ^  I  have  eiven  my  opinion ;  but  the 

*  *  whole  matter  is  hefire  you,  ^entUmeny  and  you 

*  will  judge  of  it/  Nor  was  it  withdrawn  from 
then*  judgment ;  for  althoueh  the  majority  of 
the  court  were  of  omnion  that  it  was  a  libel, 
and  had  so  publicly  declared  themselves  from 
the  bench,  yet  bv  the  unanimous  decision  of 
all  the  judges,  aner  the  court's  own  opinion 
had  been  pronounced  by  way  of  charge  to  the 
jury,  the  petition  itselt,  which  contained  no 
innuencbs  to  be  filled  up  as  facts,  was  deli- 
vered into  their  hands  to  be  carried  out  of 
court,  for  their  deliberation. — ^The  juiy  ac- 
cordinglv  withdrew  from  the  bar,  carrying  the 
libel  with  them^  and  (puzzled,  I  suppose,  by 
the  in&mous  opinion  ofthe  judges)  were  most 
of  the  night  in  deliberation ; — all  London  sur- 
rounding the  court  with  anxious  expectation 
for  that  verdict,  which  was  to  decide  whether 
Englishmen  were  to  be  freemei)  or  slaves. — 
Gentlemen,  the  decision  was  in  favour  of 
freedom,  for  the  reverend  fathers  were  ac- 
quitted ;  and  thoughacquitted  in  direct  oppo- 
sition to  the  judgment  of  the  court,  ^et  it 
never  occurred  even  to  those  arbitrary  judges 
who  presided  in  it  to  cast  upon  them  a  cen- 
'Wre  or  a  frown.  This  memorable  and  never- 
to-be-forgotten  trial  is  a  striking  monument 
of  the  importance  of  these  rights,  which  no 
juror  should  ever  surrender ;  for  if  the  lenity 
ofthe  petition  had  been  referred  as  a  question 
of  law  to  the  court  of  King's-bench,  the  bi- 
shops would  have  been  sent  back  to  the 
Tower, — ^the  dispensing  power  would  have  ac- 
quired new  strength, — ^and  perhaps  the  glo- 
nou8  era  of  the  Revolution  and  our  present 
Jutppy  constitution  might  have  been  lost. 

G^tiemen,  I  ought  not  to  leave  the  sub- 
ject of  these  doctrines,  which  in  the  libels  of 
a  few  years  past  were  imputed  to  the  noble 
earl  of  whom  I  formerly  spoke,  without  ac- 
knowledging that  lord  Mansfield  was  neither 
the  original  composer  of  them,  nor  the  co- 
pier of  them  from  these  imptire  sources :  it  is 
my  duty  X^,  say,  that  lord  chief  justice  Lee,  in 
the  case  of  the  King  against  Owen,*  had  re- 
centiy  laid  down  the  same  opinions  before 
him. — ^But  then  both  of  these  great  judges  al- 
ways conducted  themselves  on  trials  of  this 
sort,  as  the  learned  judge  will  no  doubt  con- 
duct himself  to-day ;  they  considered  the  Jury 
as  open  to  all  the  arguments  of  the  defend- 


«  See  Um  Cue  w  thia  CuUectioB,  VoL  18,  p. 
iftOX 


anfs  counsel;  andintheveiycaseof  Onen, 
who  was  acquitted  against  the  direction  ofthe 
court,  the  present  kra  Camden  addressed  the 
jmy,  not  as  I  am  addressing  you,  but  with  all 
the  eloquence  for  which  be  is  so  justly  cele- 
brated.— ^The  prmetuXj  therefore,  of  these 
great  jud^  is  a  sufficient  answer  to  their  «•- 
nion*  ;  for  if  it  be  the  law  of  Engjbmd,  tost 
the  jury  may  not  decide  on  the  question  of 
libel,  the  same  law  ou^t  to  exteno  its  autho- 
rity to  prevent  their  bemg  told  by  counsel  that 
they  may. 

There  is  indeed  no  end  of  the  absurdities 
which  such  a  doctrine  involves;  for  suppose 
that  this  prosecutor,  instead  of  indicting  my 
reverend  fiiend'  foe  publishing  this  Dialogue, 
had  indicted  him  for  publishing  the  Bible,  be- 
ginning at  the  first  book  of  Genesis,  and  eod- 
mg  at  the  end  ofthe  Revelations,  without  the 
addition  or  subtraction  of  a  letter,  and  with- 
out an  innuendo  to  point  out  a  hbdlous  appli- 
cation, only  putting  in  at  the  beginning  ot  the 
indictment  that  he  pubUshed  it  with  a  blas- 
phemous intention :— on  the  trial  for  such  a 
publication  Mr.  Beaicroft  would  gravely  sav, 

*  Gentlemen  of  the  jury,  you  must  certainly 

*  find  by  Tour  verdict,  that  the  defendant  is 
'guilty  of  this  indictment,  i.  e.  guihy  of  pub- 
'  fishing  the  Bible  with  the  intentions  cmurg- 

*  cd  by  It.    To  be  sure,  every  body  will  lau 

*  when  he  hears  it,  and  the  conviction  can 

*  the  defendant  no  possible  hann;   for  the 

*  court  of  King's-bench  will  determine  that  it 

*  is  not  a  libel,  and  he  will  be  discharged  fiom 
'  the  consequences  of  the  verdict' — Gentle- 
men,  I  defy  the  most  ingenious  man  living  to 
make  a  distinction  between  that  case  and  the 
present;  and  in  this  way  you  are  desired  to 
sport  with  your  oaths,  by  pronouncing  my  re- 
verend friend  to  be  a  cnniinal,  without  either 
determining  yourselves,  or  having  a  determi- 
nation, or  even  an  insinuation  from  the  judge 
that  any  crime  lias  been  committed ;  foUov- 
ing  strictly  that  famous  and  respectable  prece- 
dent of  Khadamanthus,  judge  of  bell,  who 
punishes  first,  and  afterwards  mstitutes  an  en- 
quiry into  the  guilt.* 

But  it  seems  your  verdict  would  be  no  pu* 
nishment,  if  judgment  on  it  was  afterwards 
arrested.— I  am  sure,  if  I  had  thought  the 
dean  so  lost  to  sensibility,  as  to  feel  it  no  pu- 
nishment, he  must  have  found  another  coun- 
sel to  defend  him.*-But  I.  know  his  nature 
better.-— Conscious  as  he  bt>f  his  own  purit]^, 
he  would  leave  the  court  hanmng  down  his 
head  in  sorrow,  if  he  were  hefi  out  by  your 
verdict  a  seditious  subject,  and  a  disturber  of 
the  peace  of  his  country. — The  arrest  of  judg- 
ment, which  would  follow  in  the  term  upon 
his  appearance  in  court  as  a  convicted  oinu- 
nal,  would  be  a.cruel  insult  upon  his  in^ 

*  I  doabt  wbelher  the  discvpaUUon  of  RBada* 
nftnlhos  ii  aathoriaeU  by  the  pusage  iu  Virgil*  ^^ 
**  Gnoirios  hlo  Rhariaaianthai  babct  f 


regna 
Castigatque  audilqoe  doles**- 
whisk  I  bcliere  gave  rUe  to  it. 


939] 


Jbr  a  Seditious  LiheU 


cence,  rather  than  a  triumph  over  the  imjust 
prosecutors  of  his  pretended  giiilt. 

Let  me,  therefore,  conclude  with  reminding 
you,  gentlemen,  that  if  you  find  the  defendant 

fuilty,  not  believing  the  thing  published  to 
e  a  libel,  or  the  intention  of  the  publisher 
seditious,  yoiu-  verdict  and  your  opinions  will 
be  at  variance,  and  it  will  then  be  between 
God  and  your  own  consciences  to  reconcile 
the  contradiction. 

As  the  friend  of  my  client,  and  the  friend 
of  my  country,  I  shall' feel  much  sorrow,  and 
you  yourselves  will  probably  hereafter  regret 
It,  when  the  season  of  reparation  is  fled.  But 
why  should  I  indulge  such  impleasant  appre- 
hensions, when  in  reality  I  fear  nothing  ?  I 
know  it  is  impossible  for  English  gentlemen, 
sitting  in  the  place  you  do,  to  pronounce  this 
to  be  a  seditious  paper;  much  less,  upon  the 
bare  &ct  of  publication,  explained  by  the  pre- 
fixed advertisement,  and  the  defendant's  ge- 
neral character  and  deportment,  to  give  credit 
to  that  seditious  purpose  which  is  necessarv 
to  convert  the  publication  even  of  a  libel  itself 
into  a  crime. 

I  beg  pardon  of  my  lord,  and  of  you,  gen- 
tlemen, for  the  long  time  I  have  trespassed 
upon  your  indulgent  and  patient  attention: 
nothing,  indeed,  but  the  duty  I  owe  my  client 
could  have  induced  me  to  do  it,  after  the  fa- 
tigue I  have  sustained  in  a  very  long  journey 
to  appear  before  you.^ 


*  I  should  incur  the  self-reproach  of  in- 
justice and  of  ingratitude  towards  my  highly 
respected  neighbours  the  members  of  the 
Corporatipn  of  Gloucester,  if  upon  the  present 
occasion  I  forbore  to  insert  from  their  records 
the  following  very  honourable  document: 

"  City  (^  Gloucester  to  wit, 

^  At  a  Common  Council  House,  held  at  the 
Tolsey  in  the  same  City,  on  Friday  the 
furst  day  of  October,  1784. 

^  The  earl  of  SURtlEY,  Mayob. 

^  lUiolved, 

**  That  the  Freedom  of  this  City  be  pre- 
senieid  to  the  Honourable  Thomas  Erskine, 
Barrister  at  Law,  as  a  testimony  of  the  ap- 
probation of  this  Corporation  of  his  zeal,  abi- 
lities, and  spirit,  with  which  he  defended  the 
Bights  of  Juries  on  the  late  Trial  of  the  Dean 
of  Saint  Asaph,  at  Shrewsbury^  for  a  libel ; 
and  that  the  same  be  communicated  to  him 
by  the  Right  Honourable  tlie  Mayor  of  this 
City,  and  be  published  in  such  public  Papers 
as  the  said  Mayor  shall  think  proper.'^ 

VOL.  XXI. 


A.  D.  1783.  [gSO 

Evidence  for  the  Defendakt. 
Mr.  Edivard  Jones  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr«  Erskine, 

You  know  the  Dialogue  that  has  been  the 
subject  of  discussion  here  to-day  ? — Yes. 

Do  you  recollect  it  being  the  intention  of. 
the  Flintshire  Committee  to  translate  that 
Dialogue  into  the  Welsh  tongue  ? — 1  was  a 
member  of  that  Committee,  and  there  was  a 
resolution  of  that  body  for  translating  it  into 
Welsh. 

I  believe  it  was  put  into  your  hands,  in 
order  to  get  it  delivered  to  that  person  to 
translate  it? — ^Yes,  to  Mr. Lloyd  of . 

You  afterwards,  I  believe,  communicated 
to  the  dean  that  you  thought  it  would  be  bet- 
ter not  to  proceed  in  the  translation  of  it  into 
Welsh } 

Mr.  Bearcrqft.  Mr.  Erskine,  bow  can  this 
be  evidence  ? 

Mr.  Erskint.  To  explain  the  advertise- 
ment prefixed  to  the  Dialogue,  said  to  shew, 
that  it  is  not  merely  a  colour  in  the  defendant, 
but  that  he  did  prevent  the  translation  of  it; 
that  is,  to  prove  an  act. 

Mr.  Bearcrqft,  I  still  say  it  is  not  admis- 
sible evidence,  but  I  shall  not  object  to  it. 

Mr.  Erskine.  Did  you  mention  that  to  the 
doan? — A.  Yes.  The  dean  said  he  had  re- 
ceived it  from  sir  William  Jones  that  morn- 
ing, or  so  very  lately  that  he  had  not  had 
time  to  read  it.  Afterwards,  I  wrote  to  the 
dean,  mentioning  the  resolutions  we  had  come 
to,  adopting  some  of  the  resolutions  of  the 
county  of  York,  as  to  the  extension  of  tha 
representation.  I  mentioned  that,  and  also 
that  I  had  collected  the  opinion  of  some  gen- 
tiemen  that  it  might  do  harm;  and  that  I 
thought  he  had  better  not  publish  it.  I  com- 
municated to  the  dean,  that  we  had  resolved 
at  a  prior  meeting  to  call  the  county  together, 
to  consider  of  an  address.  I  did  not  see  the 
dean  again  till  the  morning  of  that  county 
meeting.  The  dean  said  to  me,  "  I  am  very 
much  ooligcd  to  you  for  what  you  have  com- 
municated to  me  respecting  the  pamphlet ;  I 
should  be  exceeding  sorry  to  publish  any 
thing  that  should  tend  to  sedition ;''  or  to  that, 
effect. 

And  in  consequence  of  that  declaration  of' 
the  dean^  it  never  was  translated? — ^No;  I 
returned  it  to  him,  instead  of  translating  it. 

When  (iid  this  happen  ? — On  the  morning ' 
of  the  last  meeting  of  the  Committee ;  it  was. 
the  7th  of  January. 

Some  people,  1  believe,  had  made  pretty 
free  with  the  dean  for  wishins  to  publish  a 
thing  of  that  sort  ? — ^A  great  deal  had  been 
said  about  it. 

At  the  county  meeting  ? — ^Therc  was  some- 
thing said  about  it  at  the  county  meeting. 

Was  it  not  verj'  much  reprehended  by  some 
persons  at  the  county  meeting  ? — Yes. 

The  date  of  the  publication  shews  this  waa , 
published  tiiree  months  afterwards.  Mr.  Fitz- 

3  0 


9S1] 


23  GBOKGS  UL     Proceedings  againH  He  Dean^  of  Si.  Asaph,     [933 


maurice  has  been  proved  the  prosecutor  of 
thb  indk^Bie&t  originiilly.  Do  yen  recollect 
Mr.  Fit^aiirice  braodiosthis  Dialogue  with 
any  particular  epithets  T— Generally.  I  do 
'  not  recollect  particularly  what  epithets. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  BeMrcr&ft, 

■  You,  and  many  of  the  iriends  of  the  de- 
fendant, if  I  understand  you,  thought  this  had 
a  seditious  tendency,  and  you  ]4)prised  the 
dean  of  it,  and  begged  it  might  not  be  trans- 
lated into  Welsh? — ^Not  so;  the  gentlemen  I 
conversed  with  were  not  at  aU  connected 
writh  it. 

I  only  want  correctly  to  understand  you. 
The  dean  said  to  you,  that  he  should  be  sorry 
to  publbh  any  thing  that  tended  to  sedition ; 
that  of  course  roust  have  been  an  answer  to 
some  suggestion  on  vour  part  that  'i\  did  tend 
to  sedition? — My  first  communication  with 
the  dean  was  in  writing.  I  caimot  charge  mv 
memory  exactly  to  what  that  was.  I  stated, 
that  several  eentlemen  had  disliked  the  pub- 
lication ;  ana  I  mentioned  myself  to  him  that 
morning,  that  it  might  have  some  tendency 
of  that  sort,  and  he  said  he  should  be  sorry 
to  publish  any  thing' that  might  have  that 
tendency. 

'  Mr.  lEnkine.  Tou  said  it  differed  with  re- 
spect to  the  resolution  of  the  York  Commit- 
tee } — A.  We  had  adopted  the  resolution  of 
the  York  Committee,  and  that  was  my  lead- 
ing objection  io  a  publication  of  this  pamph- 
let, because  this  pamphlet  contradicted  ex- 
actly what  we  had  resolved  upon. 

Mr.  Bearcroft.  How  long  afier  the  pro- 
posed publication  in  Welsh  was  this  pubnca- 
tiop  ? — A,  The  meeting  at  which  it  was  re- 
solved was,  I  believe,  the  of  November, 
and  this  meeting:  was  the  7th  of  January. 

Whether  ydu  nave  not  heard  Mr.  Shipley 
read  this  pamphlet  and  defend  it^  and  at  th« 
same  time  sa^,  he  knew  very  well  that  he  was 
doing  that  with  a  rope  about  his  neck,  or 
some  such  expression  r — ^That  was  in  conse- 
quence of  something  that  was  said.  It  was 
publiciv  said  at  the  .meeting,  and  before  the 
dean,  that  it  was  treasonable,  and  many  op- 
probrious epithets  were  made  use  of.  The 
dean  then  said,  ''  I  am  now  called  upon  to 
shew  that  it  is  not  seditious,  and  I  read  it  with 
»  rope  about  my  neck.'' 

Dean  of  St.  Ataph.  Whether  there  were 
not  some  other  ironical  expressions  that  I 
loade  use  of  besides  that  ? 
^  Mr.  Bearcroft.  In  poiht  of  law,  that  ques- 
tion is  put  irregularly.  You  did  not  mean  it, 
hilt  it  snould  be  expressed  in  another  way. 

Mr.  Ertkine.  Did  you  collect  from  what 
tho  dean  said,  that  his  opinion  was,  that  the 
Dialogue  was  leeal  and  constitutional? — A. 
Undoubtedly.  The  deaok  said^  **  Now  I  have 
'  reul  this  in  public,  I  donH  think  it  so  bad  a 
thing,  and  I  think  we  ou^ht  to  pid>lish  it  in 
vinoication  of  the  Committee." 

Mr,  Ertkins.  The  defendant  bdng  very 
lioffiaAy  qirtin>i»nred,  owing  tp  the  pas- 


ture of  the  Welsh  judicature^  and  the  impos- 
sibility of  bringing  on  the  trial  m  another 
place,  where  persons  who  are  criminals  are 
supposed  to  be  usually  tried,  I  must  beg  your 
lordship's  permission,  in  a  case  where  so 
much  turns  upon  the  intention,  to  call  three 
or  four  gentlemen,  of  great  consequence  and 
reputation  in  that  county  where  the  deaa 
lives,  to  prove  his  gei^cral  deportment  and 
behaviour. 

Mr.  Just.  Bulkr.  That  is  what  I  have 
never  Imown  done  in  these  cases :  it  operates 
much  in  the  same  way  as  it  would  in  cases 
of  felony :  it  may  have  effect  hertefler  as  to 
the  punishment — I  have  no  sort  of  objectkui 
toit. 

Sir  Within  TFi£2MuiisH^n,bart  sworn* 

.  Examined  by  Mr.  Corbett. 

Are  you  acqtiainted  with  the  dean  oi  St. 
Asaph?— Yes. 

How  long  have  you  been  acquainted  with 
Mr.  Shipley  ? — iTwelve  years. 

During  the  time  you  have  had  any 
quaintance  with  him,  have  you  had  ani 
son  to  suppose  him  a  man  capable  o(  I 
guilty  of  that  which  is  now  imputed  to 
— No. 

You  are  a  near  neighbour,  I  believe  ? — Wo 
have  lived  sometimes  ncS^,  and  sometimes  at 
a  farther  distance. 

You  were  one  of  the  gentlemen  of  thejury^ 
I  believe,  when  the  trial  was  put  off? — ^Yes^ 
and  the  only  person  sworn. 

Sir  B4>gtr  Mottyuy  bart.  sworn. 

Examined  by  Mr.  ErMne. 

I  believe  you*  are  lord  lieutenant  of  tho 
county  of  Flint? — ^I  am. 

Do  ybu  know  the  dean  of  St  Asaph  ?— 
Yes. 

How  long  have  you  known  him  ? — Sevenl- 
years. 

Have  you  ever,  as  lord  lieutenant  of  that 
county,  reposed  any  public  trust  in  the  dean  T 
— ^I  proposed  him  for  the  commission  of  the 
peace,  and  afterwards  appointed  him  a  deputy 
lieutenant. 

How  has  he  deported  himself  in  those  si- 
tuations?—I  believe,  very  well. 

Mr.  Bearcroft.  Mr.  Erskine,  you  should 
content  yourself  with  asking  £be  general 
questions. 

Mr.  Enkine.  From  what  vou  know  of  the 
dean,  do  you  think  him  capable  of  stimog  up 
sedition  or  rebellion? — ^No. 

Major  Williams  sworn. 

Examined  by  Mr.  Corhett. 

I  believe  you  have  been  some  time  ac- 
quainted with  the  dean  of  St.  Asaph  ?— Tea. 

Do  you  think  him  capable  of  the  crioic 
imputed  to'  him  ? — ^No. 

Do  you  think  him  likely  to  be  a  man  to 
stir  vp sedition ?-~Far  contrary;  I  think  ]pm 
one  of  the  first  that  would  quell  iL 


933} 


Jor  a  Seditious  Libel. 


A,  D.  178S. 


1195$ 


Colonel  MyddUton  ewom. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Broderiek. 

How  long  have  vou  known  the  dean  of  St. 
-Asaph? — ^Near  twelve  years. 

What  has  been  his  character?  You  will 
please  to  confine  your  evidence  with  re^d  to 
nis  peaceable  behaviour,  or  otherwise. — I 
liave  attended  with  the  dean  at  private  meet^ 
ings  with  the  justices,  at  vestry  meetings, 
and  at  quarter  sessions,  and  I  never  saw  a 
man  of  greater  humanity. 

Do  you  think  him  a  man  of  a  quiet  temper, 
or  otherwise? — I  never  saw  him  otherwise, 
and  I  must  bee  leave  to  sajr,  I  believe  the 
Iting  has  not  a  oetter  subject  in  his  dominions 
than  the  dean  of  St.  Asaph. 

Mr.  Bennet  WilUamg  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Abhoi. 

I  believe  you  have  known  the  dean  some 
years  ? — ^I  have,  many  years. 

You  have  acted  with  him  upon  public  and 
vyther  occasions  ? — Constantlv. 

Has  he  deported  himself  as  a  peaceable, 
or  as  a  factious  man  ? — As  a  peaceable  man. 

Do  you  think  him  capable  of  stirring  up 
sedition  against  the  king? — ^No;  on  the  con- 
trary, I  don't  believe  the  king  has  a  better 
isubject.. 

End  qfike  Evidence  for  the  Drfendant. 


RfiPLr. 


Mx.Bearcrcft: 

Gentlemen  of  the  Jiiry;  I  rise,  be- 
cause it  is  my  duty  to  do  so,  in  Uie  character 
of  counsel  for  this  prosecution,  to  make  some 
observations  on  the  defence  which  has  been 
attempted.  If  the  prosecution  have  in  it  anv 
spleen,  malignitv,  or  malevolence,  those  wiU 
be  much  mistaken  who  have  chosen  me  for 
tbe  instrument  of  any  such  passions.  I  be- 
lieve I  may  appeal  to  my  practice  of  many 
years  in  the  inrofession,  whether  I  would  ever 
debase  myself  so  much  as  to  mix  the  private 
spleen  of  an  individual  with  the  pubhc  cha- 
racter of  a  prosecutor  in  the  name  of  the 
king.  Certainly  the  law  of  this  country  per- 
mits any  subject,  at  his  own  peril,  to  use  the 
name  of  the  king  to  prosecute  for  public  of- 
fences. He  that  abuses  it  is  open  to  the  law ; 
and  if  it  were  possible,  that  you  could  put  the 
defendant  in  tne  situation  to  bring  an  action 
ibr  a  malicious  prosecution,  that  law  is  open 
to  lum,  and  he  may  try  that  question. 

Gentlemen,  I  shall  not  fouow  the  learned 
g^tleman  of  counsel  for  the  defendant, 
El  many  wanderings  and  aberrations  from  the 
true  question  whicn  you  are  to  try.  You  are 
to  say,  is  he  guilty,  or  not  F  Whether  he  has 
l>een  prosecuted  with  propriety,  you  have  no- 
thing to  do  with^  nor  with  the  summoning  of 
the  first  jury  and  the  second  jury,  and  the 
teasMtt  wiiy  be  comes  to  be  tried  ny  a  third 


jurv,  here  in  Shropsliire.  A  short  answar 
'Will  I  give  to  that,  out,  as' t  oonctive, »  full 
one.  These  proceedings  are  accordlDs  to  the 
«Jaw  (^the  land.  If  there  be  any  haraship  ia 
them,  it  is  what  that  law  permits,  and  it  viu 
be  right  in  that  discretion  which  h  to  fini^ 
this  cause,  to  consid^  whether  those  ^ngs 
have  been  right  or  wrong,  when  the  £# 
fendant  comes  up  for  judgment.  You  have 
nothing  to  do  with  i^  it  could  not  be  brought 
before  youy  nor  has  it  been,  in  evidence:  of 
course,  therefore,  again  and  asain  I  call  you 
back  to  the  business  that  you  nave  sworn  to 
perform ;  that  is,  to  try  tl^e  issue  joined  be* 
tween  the  king  and  the  defendant,  and  which 
you  are  sworn  to  determine  according  to  the 
evidence. 

Gentlemen,  I  really  did  not  know,  w^ien  I 
first  found  myself  suddenly  in  the  situation  of 
the  prosecutor  of  the  dean  of  St.  Asaph,  that 
he  was  such  a  man  as  has  been  described  to« 
day  by  his  counsel.  It  is  a  great  character — 
it  IS  a  strong  one.  I  am  sorry  to  encounter 
with  such  a  one  as  he  is  represented  by  his 
own  counsel  to  be;  a  man  who  is  said  to  nave 
demeaned  himself  so  well  in  his  county,  that 
he  has  received,  the  thanks  of  his  whole 
county.  An  honour,  indeed,  if  the  whole 
county  means  what  the  dean  himself  in  this 
pamphlet  says  it  does  mean,  that  is.  a  ms^ 
rity  of  ^very  man  of  twenty-one  in  tnat  coun- 


ty; for  that  b  the  county,  according  to  the 
dean's  representation,  and  according  to  that 
definition  o(  it  I  hope  it  is  that  his  counsel  was 
authorized  to  speak. 

Gentlemen,  a  great  many  topics  have  been 
urged  in  ord^  to  contrive  the  escape  of  the 
defendant  from  this  charge.  Every  thing 
.Uling  that  has  been  said  upon  any  great  (|iies- 
tion  of  libeL  has  been  prooucad  ap<»i  this  oc- 
casion ;  and  whatever  ne  may  have  done  for 
his  client,  my  learned  friend  has  mostuflh 
doubtedly  w^  acquitted  himself. 

I  shall  take  notice  of  a  few  of  those  ai^gu- 
ments  that  appear  the  most  specious :  I  own 
thatwbicb  struck  my  reason  as  the  fairest 
was  this.  It  was  aai^  Here  is  a  prosecutioii 
Tor  an  offence  that  is  contended  to  ne  big  with 
great  public  mischief;  application  has  beeik 
made  to  the  great  law  officers  of  the  crowi^ 
and  to  the  mmistry  of  the  nation,  to  take  up 
this  nrosecution; — they  have  not  done  it; 
thereiore  (reasons  my  learned  friend)  it  cannot 
be  an  ofience^it  cannot  be  an  offence  of  any 
great  importance.  He  has  quoted  me,  too, 
against  myself,  because  I  made  use  of  the  ex- 
pressk>n  (not  unadvisedly,  I  promise  you), 
that  I  thought  the  prosecution  not  very  pru- 
dent; at  the  s^une  time  I  told  you,  I  thought 
it  lejml.  My  learned  friend  has  chosen  to 
consider  me  in.  a  light  which  does  not,  that  I 
am  aware  of,  belong  io  me.  He  has  made 
me  a  present  to  a  party  who  will  not,  I  dare 
ssy^  think  worth  while  to  accept  me ;  and  he 
has  made  a  present  of  a  party  to  me,  that  I 
have  no  right  to  call  upon.  He  has  challeng- 
'ed  ine'to  make  an  excuse  fd^r  those  traitors  to 


1135] 


23  GEORGE  III.     Proceedings  against  the  Dean  of  St.  Asaph,     [9S6 


their  country^  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  Ge- 
neralSy  who  at  one  time  were  called  upon  to 
prosecute  this  libel. 

Gentlemen^  I  shall  make  them  but  little 
compliment  when  I  say  (but  I  protest  that  is 
the  reason  that  occurs  to  me),  that  they 
thought  as  I  did  upon  the  subject — ^that  they 
thought  it  not  prudent.    Now  I  will  tell  you 
why  I  thought  so :   perhaps  it  might  be  their 
reason.    It  does  not  follow  that  it  is  wise  and 
prudent  to  prosecute  and  to  punish  every  of- 
fence ;  it  is  oflen  wiser  to  treat  it  with  disdain 
and  contempt    In  my  opinion— (and  I  t)e- 
lieve  myself  when  I  say  it),  the  reverend  de- 
fendant would  have  been  shocked  and  disap- 
r>inted,  unless  somebody  had  prosecuted  him. 
believe  it.    Men  who  make  publications  of 
this  kind^  however  they  may  profess  it,  do 
-  not  do  it  m  the  true  purity  of  patriotism ;  that 
is  the  stalking-horse  to  hide  every  private  de- 
sign of  whatever  sort ;   but  depend  upon  it, 
that  a  man  who  commits  himself  to  paper, 
and  prints  in  the  way  that  the  defendant  has 
done, — his  object  is  prosecution,  that  he  may 
4^11  it  persecution,  that  he  may  be  a  saint, 
and  almost  a  martyr,  amongst  his  particular 
friends  and  par^.    He  must  know,  since  he 
has  turned  his  mmd  to  the  considering  objects 
of  this  kind,  that  the  way  to  keep  a  party  to- 
gether is  to  prosecute,  and  is  to  punish ;  and 
we  should  never  have  himself  at  the  head, 
nor  any  member  left,  if  it  had  been  left  unno- 
ticed and  unprosecuted.    If  this  had  not  been 
thrown  out  to  me  as  a  kind  of  challenge,  I 
should  not  have  said  a  syllable  about  it,  be- 
cause I  am  decidedly  of  opinion,  that  it  is  not 
any  thing  to  the  purpose  of  the  present  en- 
quiry, tlut  is,  whether  the  defendant  is  guilty 
of  tnis  charge. 

My  learned  friend  has  supposed  that  I  have 
endeavoured  to  take  away  from  you  your 
power  of  jurisdiction  and  judj^ent,  and  to 
put  you  in  a  narrower  line  or  consideration 
upon  this  question. than  the  law  puts  you.  I 
am  not  conscious  of  that.  I  am  sure  I  did 
not  desicn  it:  there  is  nothing  in  this  case 
that  could  possibly  lead  me  to  stand  forth  (in 
possession  of  some  little  degree  of  character, 
1  am  willing  to  hope)  to  hazard  th^t,  and  to 
beconie  an  object  of  public  odium  in  a  pro- 
secution by  a  private  prosecutor,  to  state  the 
Jaw  of  libels  otherwise  than  it  is.  The  conse- 
qnence  would  be,  I  well  know,  that  I  myself 
ijnould  become  the  oly'ect  of  a  thousand 
libels ;  I  ccrtidnly  therefore  do  not  mean  it, 
and  in  order  to  set  it  straight  in  two  words. 

In  the  first  place,  I  am  free  to  confess  this : 
there  is  no  law  in  this  country  (thank  God 
there  is  not,  for  it  would  not  be  a  free  consti- 
tution if  there  were)  that  prevents  a  jury  upon 
a  criminal  question,  if  they  choose  it,  to  nnd 
a  general  verdict.  I  admit  it — ^I  rejoice  in  it 
— i  admire  and  reverence  that  prmciple  as 
the  palladium  of  the  constitution.  But,  gen- 
tiemen,  does  it  follow  because  a  jury  may  do 
this,  that  they  must  do  it?  that  it  »  fit,  and 
wise^  and  prudent^  that  they  should  do  it  ?  If  it 


should  be  the  misfortune  of  any  of  you  to  live 
in  such  times  as  produced  a  prosecution  for  a 
libel  against  the  Seven  Bisbops,  do  as  yout 
predecessors  did,  spurn  at  all  the  Attorney 
General's  doctrine ;  say  Not  guilty;  and  not 
a  word  more.  You  wiU  do  your  duty,  and 
your  names  will  be  handed  down  to  pos- 
terity with  honour :  but  if  there  is  a  mode- 
rate, a  temperate  prosecution,  an  enquiry  and 
attempt  to  administer  the  law  of  the  land  as  it 
is,  that  man  is  not  your  fnend,  permit  me 
to  say,  that  asks  of  you  to  take  upon  ^ou  to 
decide  upon  nice  questions  of  law,  if  it  be 
not  necessary.  I  am  sure  you  cannot,  as  sen- 
sible men,  wish  it. 

Gentlemen,  you  may  in  an  action  of  eject- 
ment for  an  estate  of  10,000/.  a  year — ^you 
may,  if  you  please,  set  the  judge's  direction 
at  nought  in  point  of  law ;  you  may  take  upon 
you  to  determine  upon  tl^e  effect  of  a  common 
recovery  of  conveyance ;  the  operation  of  a 
fine,  and  say.  Don't  tell  me  of  your  law,  my 
favourite  shaM  have  the  estate;  I,  therefore, 
find  a  general  verdict  for  the  plaintiff.  Who 
says  this  may  not  be  done  ?  I  don't  say  that 
it  will  have  its  effect,  because  there  is  a 
power  (and  I  thank  God  there  is)  to  correct 
such  extravagancies,  and  to  set  aside  the  ver- 
dict.— ^Why  ?  Why,  because  you  would  have 
abused  your  powers.  Not  that  the  court  does 
not  allow  the  power,  for  they  allow  you 
may  give  the  verdict,  but  they  will  say  it  is 
wrong ;  you  must  go  to  a  new  trial.  I  admit 
that  you  may,  if  you  please,  each  of  vou  take 
upon  your  shoulders  points  of  law  that  have 
created  differences  and  debates  between  the 
best  men  that  ever  lived  in  the  profes^on : 
but  I  should  suppose,  from  what  I  have  ob- 
served about  you,  that  you  would  see  no  oc- 
casion to  do  It  now,  and  certainly  there  is 
none ;  you  know  it  of  your  own  knowledge : 
but  if  you  did  not,  my  learned  friend  lias  in- 
formed you,  by  giving  that  hi^b  character  to 
the  present  courts  of  justice,  which  I  shall  not 
repeat,  nor  should  I  have  suggested,  because 
I  oelieve  no  gentleman  in  England  wants  to 
be  informed  of  it  as  a  piece  of  news. 

My  learned  friend  supposes  that  I  am  ar- 
guing for  an  absurdity,  and  that  1  am  insists 
ing  that  you  are  not  to  determine  upon  the 
question.  Libel  or  no  libel ;  and  that  my  lord 
is  not  to  give  any  opinion  upon  it;  and  there- 
fore he  draws  this  conclusion — nobody  is  to 
decide  upon  it,  and  yet  his  client  is  to  be 
punishea.  Now,  to  be  sure,  that  is  a  gross 
absurdity;  but  I  contend  for  no  such  thing.  I 
say,  you  are  to  decide  upon  this  evidence,  whe- 
ther the  defendant  has  published  a  printed 
paper,  that  has  been  produced  to  you.  That 
ne  has  published  it,  has  been  proved— it  has 
been  admitted  in  argument — ^it  has  be^ 
triumphed  in,  and  stated  as  a  matter  of  merit 
in  the  defendspt.  The  fact  of  the  publican 
tion  of  the  paper  then  stands  without  contro- 
versy, and  thus  far  beyond  all  doubt  you  are 
advanced. — t>o€s  it  relate  to  the  king  and  his 
government;  I  say,  is  the  sole  <}uestion— >s 


S37] 


Jw  a  Sfditiotit  LibeL 


A.  D.  1783. 


[938 


the  simple  fact,  which  renmins  for  you>  the 
jury,  to  decide ;  except  that  I  suppose  when 
the  pamphlet  speaks  of  the  king,  you  will  find 
it  to  speak  of  the  present  king ;  and  that  you 
will  suppose,  that  when  he  talks  about  the 
parliament  and  the  administration,  that  he 
speaks  of  the  present  government.  I  verilv 
believe,  that  I  shall  hear  the  authority  which 
presides  to-day,  and  which  I  am  as  ready  to 
DOW  to,  without  any  affectation,  as  my  learned 
friend,  confirm  me  in  this.  I  say,  it  is  for 
you  to  decide  that  point,  and  for  you  only ; 
and  I  do  contend,  upon  the  greatest,  the  best- 
founded  authority,  afler  the  most  mature  con- 
sideration, afler  what  I  may  call  an  appeal  to 
the  public  upon  the  question — that  UDel,  or 
no  libel,  is  a  question  of  law  for  the  court.  In 
the  case  my  learned  friend  has  a]luded  to  of 
the  King  against  Woodfall,"*  as  I  took  the 
noble  lord  whom  he  has  alluded  to  by  a  de- 
scription that  so  peculiarly  belong  to  him, 
ana  marks  him  for  the  first  of  judges— to 
which,  by  gratitude  and  truth,  I  am  bound  to 
subscribe  most  heartily ;  that  noble  lord,  in 
the  face  of  the  world,  in  court,  declared  that 
to  be  the  doctrine.  He  said, ''  This  has  been 
iny  constant  direction  to  juries,  conceiving  it 
^y  bounden  duty  so  to  direct  juries.  If  this  be 
right,  I  am  right;  if  this  be  wrong,  I  have 
been  wrong,  and  I  desire  to  be  con*ected.''  I 
say,  that  upon  such  a  subject,  this  was  a  so- 
lemn and  not  unbecoming  appeal  to  the  pub- 
lic, as  well  as  to  the  profession  ;  and  I  recol- 
lect too,  •  he  says,  *  You  will  remember  the 
opinion  of  those  that  are  now  dead,  and  of 
those  living,  who  are  not  now  present,'  ap- 
pealing to  characters  whom  we  all  respect, 
and  who  were  not  at  all  likely  to  decide  un- 
constitutionallv.  Upon  that  occasion  too  it 
ivas  expressly  laid  down  to  be  law,  that  as  to 
the  epithets  of  malicious,  seditious,  wicked, 
or  &lse,  or  of  the  adverbs  belonging  to 
those  epithets,  maliciously,  seditiously,  wick- 
edly, and  falsely,  that  thev  were  matters 
of  law  not  for  the  juries  to  decide  upon;  for 
^hat  it  appeared  upon  the  face  of  the  libel 
itself,  when  that  libel  was  applied  to  the 
matter  that  is  spoken  of  as  it  stands  chared 
upon  the  record.  Why,  gentlemen,  is  this  a 
great  trust  to  repose  in  the  judges  of  the 
common  law  ?  Has  not  the  common  law  im- 

Eosed  a  much  greater  in  the  judges  of  this 
md  from  the  oeginning  of  time  ?  •  Do  you 
take  upon  you,  or  aid  you  ever  know  that  any 
lury  did,  to  decide  what  circumstances  make 
homicide  murder  ?  No ;  all  the  authorities  in 
the  law  have  said,  that  murder  or  not  murder 
is  a  question  of  law.  You  may  read  it  in  the 
ablest  writers  upon  the  subject.  One  of  them 
(Mr.  Justice  Foster)  in  terms  says,  as  I  re- 
member, murder  or  not  murder  is  a  question 
of  law  for  the  Judges.  Therefore,  all  that  I 
am  arguing  for  is,  mat  that  is  law  in  a  ques- 
tion of  li&l  which  is  admitted  to  be  law  in 
every  other  case.    But  so  it  is,  that  the  spirit 

•  See  Vol.  to,  p.  895. 


of  party  bein^  agitated  and  raised  in  every 
question  of  libel,  there  always  has  been,  and 
tnere  will  be,  a  struggle  upon  every  part  of 
the  proceeding,  and  a  diversity  of  opinions 
arising  from  that  spirit,  and  not  from  any 
real  doubt  or  difficulty  belonging  to  the  sub- 
ject. If,  however,  you  will  dismiss  all  consi- 
derations of  party,  you  will  find  yourselves  in 
the  most  ordinary  situation  that  ever  juries 
are  put  in,  that  is  to  say,  that  in  a  case  where 
a  question  of  law  arises,  you  may  shift  it  fi-om 
vour  shoulders,  and  put  it  upon  those  that  axe 
better  able  to  bear  it,  and  say,  **  We  will  de-* 
termine  what  belongs  to  us,  the  fkct;  you, 
the  judges,  will  decide  the  law^  in  whose 
breast  it  is  reposed.'' 

What  the  law  is,  I  have  stated  already. 
Libel  or  not' libel  is  upon  the  face  of  the  re- 
cord ;  but  my  learned  firiend  says,  that  I  will 
not  let  the  judge  here,  according  to  my  doc- 
trine, give  an  opinion  upon  it. .  Is  there  any 
thing  uncommon  in  that  ?  Is  not  that  the  ef- 
fect of  every  finding  of  a  special  verdict?  I 
am  sure,  the  learned  Judge  who  sits  here  to 
preside  upon  tliis  trial  will  tell  you,  he  does 
not  sit  here  to  decide  great  questions  of  law, 
but  to  direct  a  trial  in  a  legal  mode,  and  to 
lead  you  to  legal  conclusions^  in  order  to  find 
certain  facts;  out  whenever  it  happens,  tlmt 
the  auestion  of  the  law  and  the  fact  can  be 
clearly  separated,  we  will  take  your  opinion  in 
point  of  fact.  Your  opinion  Will  determine 
the  fact,  and  no  judge  can  alter  it.  But  that 
record,  as  to  the  point  of  law,  will  have  the 
opinion  of  the  court  from  whence  it  conies 
pronounced  upon  it. 

And  now,  gentlemen,  let  me  shew  you  the 
wisdom  of  our  law,  and  the  happiness  of  our 
constitution.  You  may,  if  you  choose,  take 
upon  you  to  determine  the  question  of  law ; 
but  then  you  stop  the  subject  short  in  the 

f>ower  of  appealing  to  superior  courts.  But 
tt  it  be  separatea  from  the  facts,  let  it  be 
upon  the  record  as  it  is  here,  the  dean  is  not 
bound  by  the  decision  here.  He  is  not  bound 
by  the  decision  of  the  court  from  whence  this 
record  comes.  He  has  a  right  to  appeal  to 
the  highest  judicature  of  this  nation,  and  to 
take  the  opinion  of  the  House  of  Peers  upon 
this  subject.  But  if  you  decide  the  law  in 
that  box,  it  is  stopped,  and  it  can  go  no  fiir- 
ther. 

Gentlemen,  Don't  let  us  suppose  that  the 
law  is  calculated  for  partial  and  particular  pur- 
poses :  you  see  the  wisdom  and  the  equity  of 
It,  and  how  it  leads  to  tlie  fullest  and  fairest 
di3cussion;  for  somewhere  there  must  be  a 
power  of  decision.  I  contend,  therefore,  that 
as  to  the  epithets,  the  adverbs  that  you  have 
here,  they  are  not  for  you ;  and  I  contend 
this,  that  though  they  are  found  upon  the  re- 
cord, yet  if  vou  were  to  find  the  defendant 
guilty  generally  with  that  upon  the  record,  I 
say.  that  the  judges  of  the  court  have  a  right 
to  look  upon  the  record,  and  to  ^ive  their 
opinion  upon  it;  that  though  the  jury  have 
thought|  or  seemed  to  thiuk|  that  there  is 


939] 


^  GEOKGK  III.     Proeeedingt  dgtdna  the  Deak  of  St.  Asaphy     [910 


truth  in  all  these  epithets  upon  the  teoordy 
the  court  has  a  right  to  say,  We  kx^  to  the 
thiitt  itself;  iire  l<x>k  to  the  law  arising  out 
of  that,  and  say,  that  in  point  of  law  this  b 
not  a  Ubel.  So  that  in  both  ways  of  con^ 
derins  the  question,  I  trust  I  have  gone  Uie 
lengw  to  satisfy  you  that  this  is  a  question  of 
fact  only  for  vou  to  determine :  Did  he  pub- 
lish thb  ?  Did  he'mean  the  king  and  his  go- 
vernment ? 

Now,  Gentlemen,  as  to  that  my  learned 
friend  says,  that  the  scope  of  this  pamphlet 
is  perfectly  innocent;  .nay^  says  he,  it  is  not 
only  innocenty  but  mentonous;  it  is  to  render 
our  constitution  well  understood;  and  he 
says,  he  (the  dean)  has  written  luminously 
upon  this  subject :  he  has,  says  my  learnt 
fnend,  made  men  wiser  and  better.  We 
know  of  a  history  in  a  book  which  the  rev. 
dean  must  be  well  acquainted  with ;  in  which 
we  read  of  a  being  who  made  one  of  our  first 
parents  much  wiser,  but  little  better.  It  ap- 
pears to  me,  that  the  reverend  defendant,  m 
the  teeth  of  his  eeneral  profession,  has 
exactly  so  demeaned  bimselr.  He  finds  an 
innocent  fanner,  contented  with  his  station, 
enjoyine  the  blessings  of  this  constitution  in 
an  humole  state,  which  those  above,  it  seems, 
are  so  wanton  to  quarrel  with ;  and  he  asks 
this  man  whether  he  has  ever  thought  of 
something  more  than  his  hapf>y  situation  as 
a  husbandman  that  can*  pay  his  rent  ?  No, 
says  the  man,  I  never  entertained  ideas  so 
high.  He  proceeds  in  the  old  way:  first  of 
alC  by  flattery,  to  lift  hiip  up  above  himself, 
and  to  make  him  believe,  as  the  semnt  did 
£ve,  that  she  was  a  being  of  a  much  higher 
nature  than  she  at  all  suspected ;  and  atlai^t, 
by  what  he  may  call,  for  aught  I  know,  a  So- 
cratical  way  of  argument,  he  persuades  this 
man  all  in  a  sudden,  in  a  fury  of  madness,  to 
say,  ''  Give  me  the  petition,  I  will  sign  my 
name  to  if 

Now  what  is  the  object  of  this  petition  ? — 
Six  in- seven,  says  the  defendant,— six  in  seven 
in  this  country  have  no  votes ;  thouzh  my 
learned  fnend  says,  that  it  is  to  render  our 
constitution  well  understood ;  to  persuade 
mankind  that  every  male  of  age  has  a  right 
to  choose  his  own  representative;  aye,  and 
for  ftM  they  should  be  robbed  of  that  right, 
to  bear  -arms.  All  of  you  have  heard  of  a 
Polish  diet ;  this  country  would  be  worse,  if 
tint  scheme  was  to  take  effect.  I  say,  it  is 
not  the  constitution ;  and  at  ihe  hazard  of 
any  libels  that  any  set  of  men  may  choose 
to  throw  at  my  h^.  I  have  no  difficulty  to 
say,  that  the  man  wiio  maintains  this  pTOpo<> 
aitton,  that  every  man  of  twenty-one  has  a 
tight,  by  this  constitution,  to  choose  his  t^ 
presenta^e  in  parliament,  is  either  a  fool  or 
a  knave.  If  he  believes  himself,  he  is  ian 
kieot ;  if  he  does  not,  he  is  a  di^onest  man. 
So  I  state  my  poor  sentiments  upon  the  sub- 
jsct!  and  I  cannot  help  thinking  that  it 
would  not  be  very  easy  to  answer  them. — 
Thaw  ideas  ar«  not  so  extravagant^  pechf^, 


if  the  kingdom  of  Englaiid  conasted  of  no 
more  subjects  than  a  district  ten  times  as 
large,  inhabited  by  a  few  Indians  half  civi- 
lisMt  You  would 'do  well,  perhaps,  to  have 
such  a  nation  sit  in  a  rin^,  and  eacn  give  theh- 
opinions ;  but  multiply  that  in  consequence  of 
avilitation,  and  let  it  consist  of  millions,  and 
you  will  see  the  glaring  absurdity.  Even  if 
you  were  to  suppose  that  once  was  the  usa^ 
what  man,  in  a  civilized  state,  would  not  wish 
to  get  rid  of  it  ?  It  caimot  be  exercised,  it  is 
too  hiff,  too  heavy  to  be  wielded ;  let  us  away, 
thoerore,  with  all  this  kind  of  Knowledge, 
which,  in  hay  apprehension,  would  tend  to 
nothing  but  confusion  and  sedition,  and  not 
to  the  good  of  the  kingdom. 

My  learned  friend  has  toW  you,  that  he  b 
of  opinion  that  the  charge  upon  this  record 
b  not  sufficiently  clear:  he  has  chosen  to 
suppose  that  it  mig^t  have  been  drawn 
better,  by  inserting  matter  introductory,  as 
he  calb  it,  which  would  explsun  the  busmess. 
Having  said  that  the  matter  of  law  is  for 
the  consideration  of  the  court,  I  should  con- 
tradict myself  if  I  answered  that  by  any  other 
means  than  what  I  take  to  be  a  perfect  ksal 
answer :  it  is  upon  the  record.  If  there  he 
any  ground  for  the  ar^gument,  that  there  b 
something  deficient ;  if  you  find  the  d^ien- 
dant  guilty  the  moment  I  sit  down,  vet  he 
will  in  effect  be  not  guilty,  because  juaement 
will  be  arrested  for  want  of  that  i^hich  the 
learned  gentleman  says  ought  to  be  there. 

Gentlemen,  I  love  mgenuity,and  I  love  my 
fnend  for  his  ingenuity,  I  seriously  do;  and 
he  has  given  a  very  strono;  instance  of  it  in  a 
few  arguments  he  has  oflFered.  Says  Ikl  If 
publishing  a  book  be  itself  a  libel,  the  publi- 
cation of  the  Bible  is  "a  libel ;  and  the  aigii-- 
ment  to  make  it  a  libel  must  be,  that  it  may 
be  abused.  Gentlemen,  I  don*t  charge  the 
reverend  dean  with  publishing  the  Bible :  I 
donH  charge  him  with  that,  which  I  admit  is 
not  an  offence — preaching  to  a  mtdtitude  only. 
But  other  arguments  are  made  use  of;  aod 
my  fnend  says,  the  best  tMngs  may  be 
abused.  Fire,  says  he,  is  a  very  eood  fhenL 
a  very  good  servant,  but  a  very  mtd  master.  I 
believe  that  is  the  observation  upon  it.  Wh^ 
a  man  is  a  bad  subject,  and  is  gnihy  of  an  o1^ 
fence,  who  sets  fire  too  near  the  houses  of  tht 
neighbourhood.  It  has  been  very  lately  scv 
lemnly  determined,  upon  consideration^  thai 
to  set  fire  to  ^'our  own  house,  in  a  pubfic 
street,  is,  on  account  «f  the  d^ger  to  tho 
neighbourhood,  an  offence.  Medictpe  b  good, 
says  my  friend;  but  it  ibay  be  misapplieo.  It 
may  so^  by  persons  who  step  out  of  their  own 
profession  and  turn  quacks ;  hut  I  protest  I 
don't  at  all  feel  how  these  observations  appl^ 
to  the  present  case^  unless,  perh^,  in  a  wa^ 
that  will  by  no  means  assist  me  defendant. 

My  learned  friend  has  qttoted  Mr.  Lodbe 
and  my  lord  Bolingbroke:  they  are  great 
names — the  head,  he  says,  of  the  Wh^s^and 
the  head  of  the  'IY)ries ;  but,  g6od  GUI  I  are 
wetoleam  kwanddetonini)  tod  to  search 


941] 


fnf  a  SedUiQUS  LiM» 


A.  D.  1783. 


[94t 


fi»  a  deci»0Q  in  a  sort  of  parly  dispule^  from 
the  heads  of  parties  ?  If  you  have  a  sp«rk  of 
parly  in  any  one  of  your  breasts  at  this  mo- 
ment, extingubb  it,  if  you  can,  in  order  to  do 
your  duty  as  jurymen  as  you  ought  to  do.  I 
love  part^ ;  I  honour  it ;  I  believe  it  preserves 
the  constitution.  Factions  are  dreaofuly  and 
they  destroy  every  constitution;  party  pr^ 
serves  it.  Let  me  see  the  Whigs  and  the 
Tories  nearly  oalanced,  sometimes  one  upi>er- 
most,  and  sometimes  the  other:  the  vibration 
is  wholesome,  whilst  the  center  stands  un- 
moved ;  it  is  Uke  the  flux  and  reflux  of  our 
fiunous  river  Thames :  it  keeps  the  water 
wholesome  and  pure :  I  like  it;  but  let  it  not 
come  into  a  court  of  justice. 

My  learned  fnend  has  quoted  the  case  of 
the  Seven  Bishops.  I  should  not  be  an  Eng- 
lishman if  I  did  not  love  to  hear  of  that  case; 
but  I  don't  love  the  misaoplioition  of  It  Be 
so  good  as  to  remember  the  circumstances  of 
it,  which  my  learned  firiend  has  not  thought 
proper  to  speak  of.  It  was  a  shameful  and  a 
wicked  attempt,  and  an  unconstitutional  one, 
at  the  instigation  of  the  king,  and  by  his  own 
officers,  to  make  a  libel  of  a  humble,  a  de- 
cent, and  a  private  petition  of  lords  of  parlisr 
ment  (who  nave  a  right  to  apply  to  the  king 
upon  public  subjects),  beseeching  his  majes- 
ty's better  consideration  of  certain  measures. 
It  was  said  there,  that  the  chief  justice  called 
upon  the  attorney  general  to  prove  that  this 

Eitition  had  disturbed  the  kine's  govemqient. 
e  did  well ;  it'  was  not  a  lioel  in  point  of 
fact ;  they  had  not  proved  it  a  libel,  or  any 
thing  like  it ;  nor  even  had  the^  proved  the 
pubhcation  of  it :  for  if  I  go,  witn  decency 
and  propriety,  to  my  superior  to  ask  aid  and 
assistance,  to  represent  with  a  good  meaning 
any  inconvenience,  and  wish  the  matter  may 
be  reconsidered,  that  is  no  publication.  In 
the  case  1  speak  of,  I  mean  to  keep  that  se- 
cret between  myself  and  the  person  that  I 
apply  to ;  but  if  I  publish  it  m  a  twooenny 
pamphlet  in  English^  and  all  but  publish  it 
m  Welsh  in  the  principaUty  of  Wales,  that  is 
a  far  different  conduct. 

Gentlemen,  if  you  look  into  the  hifktoir  of 
the  trial  of  the  Seven  Bishops,  you  will  find, 
that  upon  that  ground  it  was  considered  as 
no  publication :  that  case  cannot  apply  there- 
fore  to  the  present,  where  beyond  all  doubt 
ve  hav^  proved  a  publication:  But  did  it  re- 
main that  it  were  necessary  for  me  to  prove 
to  vou  that  the  publication  tended  to  sedition, 
I  tnank  my  learned  friend  as  far  as  I  find 
Himself  disposed  to  return  thanks  in  the  case 
or  a  prosecution.  It  is  for  the  sake  of  the 
public.  I  thank  my  friend  for  having  thought 
proper  to  call  the  witness  he  has  done,  Mr. 
Jones ;  for  it  appears  to  me,  by  his  evidence, 
he  has  brought  it  home  that  it  does  clearly 
tend  to  sedition.  My  learned  friend  says  he 
is  called  to  shew  innocence ;  for,  says  he,  a 
man's  mind  must  go  with  the  wickedness  and 
tU^ality  of  the  act,  or  he  is  not  guilty.  I 
fafve,  says  he,  called  this  wilnass  to  proved 


yoMy  that  the  moment  that  he  knew,  and  it 
was  represented  to  him  by  Mr.  Jones  and  hit 
friends,  that  this  might  tend  to~  sedition,  that 
he  did---what? — did  not  publish  it  in  Welsh. 
Did  he  call  in  the  English  edition  ^  Did  he, 
like  a  man  convinced,  sav,  I  have  been  in  au 
error— I  am  sorry  ?  Did  he  publish  any  thing 
like  a  recantation?  Did  he  administer  the 
antidote  to  the  poison  ?  Did  he  do  that  ? 

But,  gentlemen,  are  we  now-a-days  to  hear 
such  an  answer  as  this,  that  in  an  English 
court  of  law  this  shall  be  stated  as  the  law  of 
the  land  ?  I  did  not  know  that  I  was  com-i 
milling  an  offence,  therefore  it  is  no  offence. 
Is  it  not  a  maxim  of  the  law,  that  ignorance 
does  not  excuse  ?  Must  it  not  of  necessity  be 
a  principle,  that  whatever  I  do  in  pubUc  I  am 
to  abide  by  the  consequence.  For  God's 
sake,  gentlemen,  what  would  ym  say,  if, 
upon  the  trial  of  any  offence  now  *n  the  other 
court,  it  should  be  stated  and  attempted  to'be 
proved,  that  the  man  who  committed  a  bur-  ^ 
elaiy  did  not  know  that  by  that  law  he  lost 
his  life  ?  or  that  some  friends  had  persuaded 
hhn  ?  or  that  he  had  persuaded  himself  that 
property  was  in  common?  or  that  he  had  a 
right  to  go  into  another  man's  house  and 
take  it,  and  state  complete  ignorance  of  the 
law  ?  Must  not  he  answer  for  the  act  he  has 
done  ?  I  have  no  objection,  therefore,  to  let 
the  dean  have  all  the  advantage  that  fairly 
and  directly  belongs  to  this  testimony;  but 
take  it  as  it  goes,  rough  and  smooth,  I  say  it  * 
proves,  fhough  that  is  unnecessary,  that  it 
tended  to  sedition.     I  acknowledge  that  it 

§  roves  that  the  dean — (whether  from  pru- 
ence  or  conviction,  but  I  have  a  right  to  say 
the  former ;  for  had  it  been  from  conviction, 
he  should  have  endeavoured  to  call  back  his 
former  publications,  or  to  have  ciu^  them 
by  confession  that  he  was  wrong) — ^he  stopped, 
however,  and  did  go  no  flurther. 

Gentlemen,  I  &e  ^our  pardon  for  having 
taken  up  so  much  of  your  time.  I  protest! 
feel  no  zeal  in  this  prosecution  beyond  what 
becomes  me,  in  a  cause  of  some  expectation ; 
which  naturally  calls  upon  one  to  state  one's- 
self  as  one  feels  upon  the  subject.  I  have 
nothing  t^  do  with  the  prosecutor,  no  more 
than  you  have :  only  decide  upon  this  ques- 
tion which  is  now  before  you,  which  I  take 
to  be,  as  I  have  repeated  it  so  ofien,  simply. 
Did  the  defendant  publish  this  paper?  Did 
he  publish  it,  speaking  of  the  government  f 
If  he  did.  it  falls  upon  ^ou  (the  jury)  to  say 
he  is  guilty  of  that  publication :  that  is,  that 
he  is  guilty  of  this  charge.  When  you  have 
found  nim  guilty  of  this  charge,  if  it  contains  ' 
by  law  no  criminal  matter,  there  are  those 
who  will  set  it  right.  This  I  take  to  be  the 
law  upon  the  subject;  this  I  take  to  be  the 
question- before  you;  and  I  now  readily  de- 
hver  you  up  to  that  authority  to  which  you 
will  and  ought  to  pav  respect.  By  the  course 
I  have  taken,  I  shall  hardlv  recommend  my- 
self to  my  opponents ;  ana  if  there  be,  what 
is  suggested,  malevolence  and  spleen  in  the  - 


943] 


23  GBORGE  III.     Proceedings  against  the  Dean  of  St.  Asaph^     [944 


prosecutors,  I  am  sure  they  will  never  engage 
me  as  their  advocate  again ;  and  in  that  caae 
I  shall  not  be  sorry  for  it.  If  I  have  stated 
the  question  rightly ^Jiatjustitia  mat  calum  is 
.all  I  say  further  to  you  upon  this  subject. 

Mr.  Justice  Buller : 

Gentlemen  of  the  Jury ;  This  is  an  in- 
dictment against  William  Davies  Shipley,  for 
publishing  the  pamphlet  which  you  have 
ncard,  and  which  the  indictment  states  to  be 
a  libel. 

The  defendant  has  pleaded  that  he  is  not 
guilty ;  and  whether  he  is  guilty  of  the  fact 
or  not,  is  the  matter  for  you  to  decide. 

On  the  part  of  the  prosecution,  to  prove  the 
publication,  they  have  called  Mr.  £dwards, 
who  says^  that  the  words  .'  Gentleman'  and 
^Farmer'  in  the  pamphlet  which  he  now 
produces^are  of  the  dean  of  St.  Asaph's  hand- 
writing. He  received  the  pamphlet  which  he 
now  produces  from  the  dean,  with  the  direc- 
tions, which  he  has  also  produced,  and  which 
have  been  read  to  you.  These  directions  are, 
that  he  would  eet  it  printed  with  an  adver- 
tisement affixed  to  it,  which  is  contained  in 
that  letter  w^ch  has  been  read.  This  letter 
appears  to  be  dated  the  24th  of  January, 
1783;  and,  in  consequence  of  that  letter, 
which  desires  him  to  get  the  inclosed  Dia- 
logue printed,  he  sent  it  to  Marsh  a  printer, 
according  to  the  directicxis  contained  in  the 
letter. 

John  Marsh  says,  this  pamphlet  wfts  print- 
ed at  their  office  from  what  was  sent  by  Mr. 
Edwards.  After  some  copies  were  struck  off 
he  saw  the  dean;  he  told  him  Mr.  Jones 
had  had  several  copies:  the  dean  seemed 
then  quite  surprised  that  any  stir  should  be 
miade  about  it. 

William  Jones  is  then  called,  who  says,  he 
bought  the  second  pamphlet  produced,  from 
Marsh,  in  the  month  of  February,  1783.  He 
says,  he  is  the  prosecutor  of  the  indictment : 
then  he  told  you  that  he  applied  to  the  Trea^ 
sury  about  the  prosecution,  and  they  did  not 
take  it  up. 

This  is  the  whole  of  the  evidence  &r  the 
prosecution. 

For  the  defendant,  Edward  Jones  has  been 
called^  who  says,  he  was  a  member  of  the 
Flintshire  committee ;  that  it  was  intended 
by  them  to  print  this  Dialogue  in  Welsh. 
The  dean  said,  he  had  received  the  pamphlet 
80  late  from  sir  William  Jones,  that  he  had 
not  had  time  to  read  it.  He  says,  he  told  the 
dean  tliat  he  had  collected  the  opinions  of 
some  gentlemen,  which  were,  that  it  mi^ht 
do  harm.  After  that  the  dean  told  lum, 
that  he  was  obliged  to  him  for  his  informar- 
tion,  that  he  should  be  sorry  to  publish  any 
thing  that  tended  to  sedition,  and  it  was 
upon  this  reason  that  it  was  not  published  in 
Welsh.  This  passed  on  the  7th  of  January, 
1783.  Some  time  af\er,  Mr.  Shipley  said, 
''  he  would  read  it,  to  shew  it  was  not  so  se- 
ditious i  Vut  that  he  read  it  with  «  rope  about 


his  neck;''  and  when  be  read  it  be  gave  his 
ophiion  he  did  not  think  it  Quite  so  bad. 

Mr.  Erskine.  I  ask  your  lordship's  pardon,' 
I  believe  the  witness  said  it  was  at  the  county 
meeting  where  the  dean  said  this. 

Mr.  Jonef .  It  was  the  same  day,  the  7th 
of  January. 

Mr.  Justice  BuUer.  Yes,  af^rwards  at 
the  county  meeting  he  said  he  would  read  it, 
to  shew  it  was  not  so  seditious ;  but  that  he 
read  it  with  a  rope  about  his  neck.  When- 
he  had  read  it,  he  sud  he  did  not  think  it  sa 
bad. 

Then  he  called  five  gentlemen,  who  ^peak 
to  his  character. 

Sir  Watkin  Williams  Wynn  says,  he  has 
known  the  defendant  eight  or  nine  years;  he 
does  not  think  him  a  nsan  likely  to  be  guilty 
of  that  which  is  now  imputed  to  him. 

Sir  Roger  Mostyn,  wno  is  lord  lieutenant 
of  Flintshire,  says,  he  haSs  known  the  de- 
fendant several  years — that  he  put  him  into 
the  commis^on  of  the  peace,  and  appointed^ 
him  a  deputy  lieutenant — that,  in  his  opi- 
nion, he  does  not  think  the  defendant  capa- 
ble of  stirring  up  sedition  or  rebellion. 

Major  WilUams  says,  he  has  no  reason  to 
believe  the  defendant  capable  of  being  guilty 
of  the  crime  imputed  to  him ;  on  uie  con- 
trary, he  thinks  he  would  be  the  first  that 
would  quell  sedition. 

Col.  Myddleton  says,  he  has  known  the 
dean  of  St.  Asaph  near  twelve  years,  that  he 
has  attended  with  the  dean  at  private  meet- 
ings of  the  justices,  and  at  quarter  sessions, 
and,  in  his  judgment,  the  king  has  not  a  bet- 
ter subject. 

Bennet  W^illiams  likewise  says,  he  has 
known  the  dean  many  years-^that  the  defen- 
dant is  a  peaceable  man,  not  capable  of  stir- 
ring up  sedition,  and  he  thinks  he  is  as 
pesu:eable  a  subject  as  any  the  kins  has. 

Now,  gentlemen,  this  is  the  whole  of  the 
evidence  that  has  been  given  on  the  one  side 
and  the  other. — As  to  the  several  witnesses 
who  have  been  called  to  give  Mr.  Shipley  the 
character  of  a  quiet  and  peaceable  noan,  not 
disposed  to  stir  up  sedition,  that  cannot  go- 
vern the  present  question ;  for  the  question 
for  you  to  decide,  is,  Whether  be  is  or  is  not 
guilty  of  publishing  this  pamphlet  ? 

You  have  heard  a  greiat  deal  said,  which 
reaUy  does  not  belong  to  the  case,  and  a  part 
of  it  has  embarrassed  me  a  good  aeal  in  what 
manner  to  treat  it. — I  cannot  subscribe  to  a 
great  deal  that  I  have  heard  from  the  defen- 
dant's counsel ;  but  1  do  readily  admit  the 
truth  and  wisdom  of  that  proposition  which 
he  stated  from  Mr.  Locke,  thfit  «  wherever 
the  law.  ends,  tyranny  begins," — The  ques- 
tion then  is.  What  is  the  law  as  applicable  to 
this  business  ^  and  to  narrow  it  still  more. 
What  is  the  la>v  in  this  stage  of  the  business? 
— ^You  have  been  pressed  very  much  by  the 
counsel,  and  so  have  I  also,  to  give  an  opi- 
nion upon  the  question^  whether  Uiis  pampn- 
let  is*  or  is  not.  a  libel  I  Geatlemen,  it  is  my* 


945] 


Jw  a  SedUious  Libel. 


A.  D.  1783. 


[91© 


happiness  that  I  find  the  law  so  well  and  so 
llilly  settled/  that  it  is  impossible  for  any 
man  who  means  well,  to  doubt  about  it*;  and 
the  Gouqsel  for  the  defendant  was  so  con- 
scious that  the  law  was  so  settled,  that  he 
liiniself  stated  what  he  knew  must  be  the  an- 
swer which  he  would  receive  from  me ; — ^that 
isy  That  the  matter  appears  upon  the  record, 
and  as  such,  it  is  not  tor  me,  a  single  judge, 
^tting  here  at  nisi  prius,  to  sav,  whether  it 
is  or  IS  not  a  libel.  Those  who  adopt  the 
contrary  doctrine,  forget  a  little  to  whai 
lengths  it  would  go;  for  if  that  were  to  be 
jftllowed,  the  obvious  consequence  would  be 
what  was  stated  by  the  counsel  in  reply, 
namely f  that  you  deprive  the  subject  of  that 
which  is  one  of  his  dearest  birthrights :  vou 
deprive  him.  of  his  appeal— you  deprive  nim 
of  his  writ  of  error ;  tor  if  I  was  to  give  an 
opinion  here  that  it  was  not  a  libel,  imd  you 
adopted  that,  the  matter  is  closed  for  ever. 
Ilie  law  acts  equally  and  justlv,  as  the 
pamphlet  itself  states — it  is  equal  between 
the  prosecutor  and  the  defendant ;  and  what- 
ever appears  upon  the  record  is  not  foe  our 
decision  here,  Dut  may  be  the  subject  of  fu* 
ture  consideration  in  tne  court  out  of  which 
the  record  comes ;  and  afterwards,  if  either 
party  thinks  fit,  tliey  have  a  right  to  cany  it 
to  the  dernier  resort,  and  have  Die  opinion  of 
the  House  of  Lords  upon  it;  and  therefore 
that  has  been  the  uniform  and  established 
answer  not  only  in  criminal  but  civil  cases. 
The  law  is  the  same  in  both,  and  there  is  not 
s  gentleman  round  this  table  who  does  not 
know  that  is  the  constant  and  uniform  an- 
swer which  is  given  in  such  cases. 

You  have  been  addressed  by  the  quotation 
of  a  great  many  cases  uponHbels.  It  seems 
to  me,  that  that  question  is  so  well  settled, 
that  gentlemen  should  not  agitate  it  toun ; 
or  at  least,  when  they  do  agitate  it,  it  should 
be  done  by  stating  Jairly  and  fully  what  has 
passed  on  all  9ide8,  not  by  stating  a  passaee 
or  two  from  a  particular  case  tmit  may  be 
twisted  to  the  purpose  that  they  want  it  to 
answer.  And  how  this  doctrine  ^ver  comes 
to  be  now  seriously  contended  for,  is  a  mat- 
ter of  some  astonishment  to  me ;  for  I  do 
jiot  know  any  one  question  in  the  law  which 
is  more  thoroughly  established  than  that  is. 
I  know  it  is  not  the  language  of  a  particular 
set  or  party  of  men,  because  the  very  last 
case  that  nas  ever  arisen  upon  a  libel,  was 
conducted  by  a  very  respectable  and  a  very 
honourable  man,*  who  is  as  wann  a  partisan, 
and  upon  the  same  side  of  the  auestion,  as 
the  counsel  for  the  defendant,  and,  I  believe, 
€ff  what  is  called  the  same  party.  But  he 
stated  the  case  in  few  words,  wnich  I  cer- 
tainly adopted  afterwards,  and  of  which,  I  be- 
lieve, no  man  ever  doubted  about  the  pro- 
priety. That  case  arose  not  three  weeks  ago 
at  Guildhall  upon  a  question  of  a  libel ;  anfl 


*  Mr.  Jolin  lite,  al  Uut  tiiot  bU  0iig«gt^'t  ftitor- 
aej  genenl. 

VOL.  XXL 


in  staUng  the  plaintiff's  case;  he  told  the  jury 
that  there  could  be  but  three  questions. 

The  first  is,   Whether  the   defendant  is 
guilty  of  publishing  the  libel  ? 

The  second.  Whether  the  innuendos  or  the 
averments  made  upon  the  record  are  true  ? 

The  third,  which  is  a  question  of  law^ 
Whether  it  b  or  is  not  a  lioel  ?  Therefore, 
said  he,  the  two  first  are  the  only  questions 
^ou  have  to  consider :  and  this,  adde<l  he^ 
very  rightly,  is  clear  and  undoubted  law.  It 
is  adoirted  by  me  as  clear  and  undoubted  law^ 
and  it  has  been  so  held  for  considerablv  more 
than  a  century  past.  It  is  indeed  admitted 
by  the  counsel^  that  upon  great  consideration^ 
it  was  so  held  m  one  of  the  cases -he  mention- 
ed, by  a  noble  and  learned  lord  who  has  pre- 
sided a  great  many  years,  with  very  distin- 
piished  honour,  in  the  first  court  of  criminal 
justice  in  this  country ;  and  it  is  worUiy  of 
observation,  how  that  case  came  on.  For 
S8  vears  past  (during  which  time  we  have 
had  a  vast  mimber  of  prosecutions  in  different 
shapes  for  libels)  the  uniform  and  invariable 
conduct  of  that  noble  jud^  has  been,  to  state 
the  questions  as  I  have  just  stated  them  to 
you;  and  though  the  cases  have  been  de*> 
fended  by  counsel  not  likely  to  yield  much^ 
yet  that  point  was  never  found  fault  with  by 
them,  and  often  as  it  has  been  enforced  by 
the  court,  they  never  have  attempted  yetbj 
any  explication  to  set  it  aside.  At  Last  it 
came  on  in  this  way ;  the  noble  Judge  him*> 
self  brought  it  on,  by  stating  to  the  court 
what  his  directions  had  always  been^  with  a 
desire  to  know  whether,  in  their  opimons,  tho 
direction  was  rieht  or  wrong?  The  court 
were  unanimously  of  opinion  that  it  waa 
rijB^t,  and  that  the  law  bore  no  question  or 
dispute. — It  is  admitted  by  the  counsel  like- 
wise, that  in  the  time  that  my  lord  chief  jus- 
tice Lee  presided  in  the  court  of  KingCs-^^encb. 
the  same  doctrine  was  laid  down  as  C^ear  and 
established.  A  sounder  lawyer,  or  a  more 
honest  man^  never  sat  on  the  bench  than  he 
was.  But  if  we  trace  the  question  farther 
back,  it  will  be  found,  that  about  the  year 
1731  (which,  I  suppose,  has  not  esckped  Uir 
dUigence  of  the  counsel)  another  chief  justice 
[Raymond]  held  the  same  dgctrine,  and  ia 
terms  whicn  are  more  observable  than  those 
in  most  of  the  other  cases,  because  they  shew 
pretty  clearly  when  it  was  that  this  idea  was 
first  broached. — ^That  was,  an  information 
against  one  Franklin^I  think)  for  publishing 
a  libel  called  The  Craftsman.*— The  then 
chief  justice  stated  the  three  questions  to  the 
ju^  in  the  same  way  I  mentioned.  He  said, 
*<  The  first  is  as  to  the  fact  of  publication;  se- 
condly. Whether  the  averments  in  the  infor- 
mation are  true  or  not;  and  thirdly.  Whe- 
ther it  is  a  libel."  He  says,  *'  there  are  biit 
two  of  these  questions  for  your  consideration ; 
— the  third  is  merely  a  question  of  law.  with 
which  you,  the  jury,  have  noting  to  do,  as 


3  P 


«  Sm  the  Cm«,  Vol.  17,  p.  626. 


947].' 


23  GEORGE  III.     Proceedings  against  ike  Dean  of  St.  Asaph,     [94S 


bas  DOW  of  late  been  thought  by  some  people, 
who  ought  \6  know  ISetter ;  but,"  says  he, "  we 
must  always  take  care  to  distiaeuish  between 
matters  ot  law  and  matters  of  lact,  and  they 
are  not  to  be  confounded." 

With  such  a  train  of  authorities,  it  is  really 
f  itraordinary  to  hear  ihp  matter  now  insisted 
on  as  a  question  which  admits  a  doubt;  and 
if  *we  go  farther  back,  it  will  be  found  still 
clearer :  for  about  the  time  of  the  Revolution, 


authorities  will  be  found  which  go  dh-ectly  to    Court  to  look  into  the  record,  and  they  ate 


are'  sworn  to  administer  the  law  ^thfully  m\ 
truly.  The  jury  are  not  so  sworn,  but  to  nvt 
a  true  verdict  according  to  the*evidence.  l>id 
ever  any  man  hear  of  it,  or  was  it  ever  yet 
attempted  to  give  evidence  of  what  the  law 
was? — If  it  were  done  In  one  instance,  H 
must  hold  in  all.— Suppose  a  jury  should  say, 
^t  whicih  b  stated  upon  a  record  is  high 
treason  or  murder;  if  the  facts  charged  upon 
the  record  are  not  so,  it  is  the  duty  of  ^ 


the  point.  In  one  of  them,  which  arose 
withm  a  year  or  two  from  the  time  of  the 
Case  of  the  Seven  Bishops  which  the  counsel 
allifded  to,  a  defendant,  m  an  information  for 
a  libel,  which  was  tried  at  bar,  said  to  the 
court,  *'  As  the  information  states  this  to  be  a 
scandalous  and  seditious  libel,  I  desire  it  may 
be  left  to  the  iury  to  say  whether  it  is  a  scan- 
'dalous  and  seditious  libel,  or  not.**  The  an- 
swer then  given  by  the  court  was,  "  That  is 
matter  of  law ;  the  juiy  are  to'  decide  upon 
tiie  fact;  'and  if  they  find. you  guil^  of  the 
foct,  the  court  will  dterwards  consider  whe- 
ther it  is  or  is  not  a  libel.'^ — If  one  goes  still 
iiftrther  back,  we  find  it  settled  as  a  principle 
which  admits  of  no  dispute,  and  laid  down  so 
early  as  the  reign  of  (]ueen  Elizabeth  as  >a 
maxim,  that "  adquaestionem  facti  respondent 
juratores,  ad  qusstionem  juris  respondent 
indices.'^  And  m  the  case  that  the  counsel 
xias  thouffht  fit  to  allude  to,  under  the  name 
of  Bushell^s  Case,  the  same  maxim  is  recog- 
nized by  the  court  negatively^  viz.  <<  ad  ques- 
tionem  fiicti  non  respondent  judices,  ad  ques- 
•tionem  legis  non  respondent  juratores:"  fbr, 
said  the  court  unanimously,  if  it  be  asked  of 
the  jury  what  the  law  is,  they  cannot  say ;  if 
'it  be  asked  of  the  court  what  the  fact  is,  they 
-cannot  say. 

Now,  so  it  stands  as  to  legal  history 
upon  the  busfaiess.  Suppose  there  were  no 
authority  at  all,  can  any  thing  be  a  stroneer 
proof  of  the  improoriety  of  what  is  contended 
for  by  the  coimsel  for  the  defendant,  than 
what  thev  have  had  recourse  to  i  They  have 
-addressed  vou — not  as  is  very  usual  to  address 
-a  jury,  which  you  must  know  yourseWes,  if 
-you  luive  often  served  upon  them ;  they  have 
addressed  you  upon  a  questbn  of  law,  on 
whieh  thcfy  have  quoted  cases  for  a  century 
back.  Now,  are  ]rou  possessed  ,of  those 
cases  in^our  own  minds?  are  you  apprized  of 
the  distmctions  on  which  those  determina- 
tions are  founded  ?  Is  it  not  a  little  extiaordi- 
nary  to  reauire  of  a  iury,  that  they  should 
carry  all  ttie  legal  aeterminatioas  in  their 
minds?  If  one  looks  a  little  fiurther  into  the 
-constitution,  it  seems  to  me,  thai,  without  re- 
course to  authorities^  it  cannot  admit  of  a 
doubt..  What  is  the  mode*  of  administering 
justiee  in  this  country  ?-— The  judg^  are  ap- 
pointed to  decide  the  law,  the  jtmes  to  de-< 
cide  the  fact.— How? -^ Both  under  the 
solemn  obligation  of  an  oath.    The  judges 


bound  by  their  oaths  to  discbsrge  the  defen- 
dant 'nie  consequence  if  it  were  not  ao 
woidd  be,  that  a  man  would  be  liable  to  ht 
hanged,  who  had  offended  against  -no  law  at 
all.  It  is,  after  the  fact  is  found  by  thejuy, 
for  the  Court  to  sagr  whether  it  is  miw  omoce 
or  not.  It  would  undoubtedly  hold  in  ctvii 
cases  as  Well  as  criminal ;  and  as  the  cooosei 
for  the  pi^osecution  has  said  in  reply,  by  the 
same  reason  in  the  case  of  an  ejectment, 
you  might  decide  contmry  to  the  law.  But 
was  it  ever  supposed,  that  a  jury  was  compe- 
tent to  say  what  is  me  operation  of  a  fine,  or 
a  recovery,  or  a  wammty,  which  are  men 
questions  of  law  ^— — 

Then  the  cotmsel  says,  it  is  a  very  esctn^w 
dinaiy  thing,  if  you  have  nothing  else  to  dfr- 
teide  but  the  fact  of  publication ;  because  then 
the  jury  are  to  do  notiiine  but  to  decide  that 
which  was  never  disputed. — ^Now,  there  is  a 
great  deal  of  art  in  tnat  argument,  add  it  was 
very  ingeniously  put  by  the  counsel;  but 
there  is  a  fallacy  in  the  argument,  which 
wses  from  tiie  want  of  distinguishing  how 
the  matter  comes  here,  and  how  it  stands 
now.  It  is  not  true,  that  the  defendant,  bj 
the  issue,  admits  that  he  ever  published  ic--> 
No ;  upon  the  record  he  denies  it-;  but  when 
he  comes  here,  he  thinks  fit  to  admit  it ;  but 
that  do»  not  sdter  the  mode  of  triaL 

Thenit  isasserted,  that  if  you  go  upoatbi 
publication  onlv,  tlie  defendant  would  bt 
found  guilty,  though  he  is  innocent.  But 
that  is  oy  no  means  the  case  $  and  it  is  only 
necessary  to  see  how  many  ^^lards  the  law 
has  made,  to  shew  how  fidlacious  that  argiK 
ment  is. — if  the  &ct  were,  that  the  defendant 
never  denied  the  publication,  but  meant  ft> 
admit  it,  and  insist  that  it  was  not  a  libel,  ht 
had  another  way  in  which  he  shouki  fanvt 
done  it  (a  way  universally  ktiown  to  the  vkfh 
fession)i-ihe  ought  to  have  demurred  to  tbi 
indictment ;  by  wlttch  in  substance  he  wfwld 
have  said-^I  admit  the  hd  «f  publis|iiiig  it, 
but  deny  that  it  is  any  offence.*-*But  he  is  not 
precluded,  even  now,  from  saying  it  is  not  a 
libel;  for  if  the  fact  be  fotmd  bv  you,  that  be 
did  publish  the  pamphlet,  and  upon  futurs 
consideration  .the  oourt  of  KingVbench  shall 
be  of  opinion  that  it  is  not  a  libel,  he  must 
then  be  acqiiiti^.*  As  to  his  coming  here, it 
ishisownaioilce. 


*  Qa.  It  Totchin'i 
VvlL  14,  p.  109^. 


Uw  MM  hen  iatended*  See 


*  It  akuAt  be  obrioot  U>  twerj  body  thai 
tfaii  dootrine  tke  Pren  wat  in  Uie  luuids  of  Jadget 
appointed  by  ths  orown.  Note  t«  Loid  Bnkipi^ 
Spetoliei« 


«49] 


for  a  SediHous  IdbcL 


A.  D.  178S 


But,  8iy  the  counsel  farther,  it  is  dear  in 
foini  of  uiw,  that  in  a  criminal  case  the  de- 
fendant cannot  plead  specially :  therefore  he' 
might  give  any  thine  in  evidence  that  would 
he  a  justification  if  ne  could  plead  specially. 
— J  admit  it ; — but  what  does  tnat  amount  to  ? 
You  must  plead  matter  of  fact ;   you  cannot 
plead  matter  of  law ;  the  plea  is  l^  if  you 
do.    Then  admitting  that  he  could  give  that 
in  evidence  upon  not  ffuihy,  which  would  in 
point  of  law^  ir  pleaded,  amount  to  an  excuse 
or  a  defence,  the  question  still  is,  what  are  the 
fects  on  which  the  defence  is  founded  ?    That 
brines  the  case  to  the  question  of  publication ; 
Ibr  tne  hmuendos  are  no  more  than  this :  the 
indictment  says,  that  by  the  letter   G.  is 
meant  Gentleman,  and  oy  thje  letter  F.  is 
meant  Farmer.    Now  the  title  of  this  paoiph- 
let  is,  ^  The  Principles  of  Government,  in  a 
Dialogue  between  a  Gentleman  and  a  Far- 
mer."   The  first  question  is  whether  the  G. 
means  Gentleman  and  the  F.  Farmer ;  the 
next  question  is  not  upon  initials  or  letters 
that  may  be  doubtful,  but  whether  the  King 
written  at  length  means  the  King  of  Great 
BrUainy  and  whether  the  Parliament  means 
the  Parliament  of  Grfiot  Britain.    These  are 
points  I  don't  know  how  to  state  a  question 
upon ;  and  if  vou  are  satisfied  as  to  the  innu- 
endos,  the  onj^  remaioiii^g  question  of  fact  is 
as  to  the  publication. 

Whether  Mr.  Edward  Jones's  evidence  will 
or  will  not  operate  in  mitigation  of  puni^ 
ment,  is  not  a  questiojn  for  me  to  give  an  opi- 
nion upon,  because  it  is  not  for  me  to  inflict 
the  punishment  if  the  defendant  is  found 
guil^.    But  upon  his  evidence  it  stitnds  thus : 
the  dean  had  thoughts  of  printing  the  pamph- 
let in  Welsh;   but  upon  what  was  saiato 
him  by  Mr.  Jones  ana  other  gentlemen,  his 
friends,  he  declined  it    But  lie  afterwards 
iJublished  it  in  English :  for  this  conversation 
IS  sworn  by  Jones  to  be  on  the  7  th  of  January* 
snd  not  tiU  the  94th  of  January  does  he  send 
this  feller  to  Edwards  with  the  pamphlet,  dA- 
aiiingthat  it  might  be  published;  therefore 
there  h  no  contradiction  as  to  the  publication ; 
and  if  ^ou  are  satisfied  with  this  in  point  of 
fact,  it  is  my  duty  to  tell  vou  in  point  of 
law,  you  are  bound  to  find  the  defendant 
^Itv. — I  wish  to  be  as  explicit  as  I  can 
in  the  directions  I  give,  because  if  I  err  in 
any  respect,  it  is  open  to  the  defendant  to 
have  it  corrected.    As  far  as  it  is  necessary 
to  ^ve  aiw  opinion  in  point  of  law  upon  the 
ittbject  of  the  trial,  I  readily  dp  it ;    beyqnd 
that  I  don't  mean  to  say  a  word,  because  it  is 
not  necessary  nor.  proper  here!    In  a  fiiture 
stage  of  the  business^  if  the  defendant  is 
found  guilty)  he  will  have  a  right  to  de- 
mand jny  opmion ;   and  if  ever  that  happens, 
it  is  my  duty  to  ^ve  it,  and  then  I  will:  but 
till  that  happens,  I  do  not  think  it  proper,  or 
by  any  means  incumbent  upon  one  who  sits 
where  I  do,  to  go  out  of  the  case  to  give  an 
opinion  upon  a  subject  which  the  present 
stage  of  the  casa  does  not  require.  .  Therefore 


[950 

I  can  only  s^y,  that  if  jou  are  satisfied  that 
the  defendant  did  publish  this  pamphlet,  and 
are  satisfied -as  to  ttie  truth  of  the  mnuendos 
in  point  of  law,  you  ousht  to  find  him  guilty. 
If  you  are  net  satisfied  of  that,  you  wiU  oi^ 
course  acquit  him. 

The  Jury  withdrew  to  consider  of  their  ver- 
dict, and  in  about  half  an  hour  returned  agai^ 
into  Court, 

Aisociate,  Gentlemen,  do  you  find  the  do* 
fendant  Guilty  or  Not  Guilty? 

Foreman.    Guilty  of  pubhshingoni^. 

Mr.  Erskine.  You  find  him  guilty  of  puW 
Ushino;  onfy  ? 

A  juror.    Guilty  onlv  of  publishing. 

Mr.  Justice  Buller.  I  believe  thatis  a  verdic^ 
not  quite  correct.  You  gentlenien  of  the  jury 
must  explain  one  way  or  the  other,  whethes 
you  find  the  meaning  of  the  innuendos.  TIm 
mdictment  has  stated  that  G.  means  GrenUe- 
man,  F..  Farmer,^-The  King,  the  King  of 
Great  Britain,  and  the  Parliament,  the  Par-i 
liament  of  Great  Britain.  Do  you  find  him 
Guiky  ?• 


*  Hera  the  raport  pablithed  by  Mn  Ganej  dilfen 
ooDsiderably  from  thai  given  in  Uie  "  Tlie  8peeohe% 
of  Um  Hon.  Tkoaas  Brskine."  The  former  is  exhi- 
bited in  Uie  text.  In  the  Utter  this  ooncluding  in- 
terrogatory of  Mr.  JoaUce  Boller't  speech  it  ooiiltetj^ 
and  then  follows : 

Otte  of  the  Jury.    We  hhve  no  doubt  of  that. 

Mr.  Jaitioe  B^^^er.  If  jqu  find  him  guilty  of  pain 

liahing,  yon  mutt  not  say  the  word  only.  ^ 

Mr.  Srtkme,    By  that  they  mean  to  find  ther* 

was  no  sedition.  , 

4  Juror,    We  onW  find  him  guilty  of  pibUshiag. 

We  do  liot  find  anj  thing  else; 

Mr.  JSfifcme.  I  beg  joar  lordship's  pardon,  widi 
great  submission.  I  am  sure  I  mean  nothing  that  li^ 
irregular. .  I  understand  they  say,  We  onlj  find  him 
guilty  of  publishing. 

A  Juror.  Certainly,  that  is  all  we  do  find. 
Mr.  Broderick.  They  have  not  found  that  it  is  a 
libel  of  and  oonoerning  the  king  and  his  governmenU 
Mr.  Justice  BuUer.  If  you  only  attend  to  what 
is  said,  there  is  no  question  or  doubt.  If  you  artf 
satisfied  wliether  the  letter  G.  means  GenUeman, 
whether  P.  means  Parmer,  the  King  means  King  of 
Great  Britain,  the  Parliament  the  Parliament  oC 
Great  Britain— if  Uioy  an  all  satisfied  it  is  so,— ia 
there  ao^  oiher  innuendo  in  the  indictment  ? 

Mr.  Leyetiier.    Yes,  there  is  one  more  upon  the 
word  votet. 

Mr.  Enlane'.    When  the  jury  came  into  courts 
they  gaye,  in  the  hearing  of  erery  man  present,  thsi 
Tery  rerdict  that  was  given  in  the  case  of  the  King 
against  Woodfidl ;  the?  said,  Guilty  of  publishing 
only.     Gentiemen,  I  desire  to  know  whether  you 
mean  the  word  otUy  to  stand  in  your  verdict. 
One  €f  the  Jury.    Certainly. 
Afwther  Juror.    Certainly. 
Mr.  Justice  BuUer.    Gentlemen,  if  you  add  tbf 
word  only,  it  will  be  a^gatiring  the  innuendos;  it 
will  be  negativing,  thai  by  the  word  King  it  mean* 
King  of  Great  Britain;   by  the  word  Parliament, 
Parliament  of  Great  BriUiu;    by  the  letter  F.   it 
means  Parmer,  and  G.  Centleman ;  that  1  understand 
yon  do  sot  mean. 


951 J  23  GEORGE  IIL     Proceedings  agaitut  the  Dean  of  Si.  Asaph^     [992. 

One  cf  the  Jury,  We  don't  say  any  thing 
to  jud^e  of  the  kbel,  we  only  find  him  guiltj 
ofpubiishin^. 

Mr.  Erthne.    I  beg  your  lordship's  pir^ 


One  of  Ihe  Jury.  Yes,  we  find  l;um  gqilty 
of  that. 

Mr.  Erskinc.  They  find  the  defendant 
guilty  of  publishing  onljf, 

'   '  II.-  ■  II  ■!  I    ..  ■       III.  ,1  ■! 

A  Surer,    No. 

Mr.  £rijlctfie.  Mj  lord,  I  -wkj  tbat  will  bare  the 
effect  of  a  general  verdict  of  Guiltj.  1  desire  the 
Verdict  may  be  recorded.  I  desire  joor  lordship, 
•ittiiij^  herp  as  jodge,  to  record  the  Tcrdict  as  given 
.bj  the  jury.  ]f  the  jary  depart  fipom  the  word  onhf, 
they  alter  their  TordioU 

Mr.  Justice  BulUr,  I  will  take  the  verdict  as 
they  mean  to  give  it;  it  shall  not  be  altered.  Gen- 
tlemen, if  I  nndersland  yon  right,  year  verdict  is 
this,  yon  mean  to  say  goiUy  of  publishing  this  libel  i 
A  Juror.  No;  tlie  pamphlet;  we  do  not  decide 
upon  its  being  a  libel. 

Mr.  Justice  BuUer.    Yon  say  he  is  guilty  of  pub- 
lishing the  pamphlet,  and  that  the  meaning  of  the 
innnendos  is  as  stated  in  the  iDdiotoMnt. 
A  Juror,    Certainly. 

Mr.  Enkme,    Is  the  word  okhf  to  stand  part  of 
jpor  vordict? 
A  Juror.    Cerlainly. 

Mr.  Erikine,'    Then  I  insist  it  shall  be  recorded. 
Mr.  Justice  BuUer,    Then  the  verdict  must  be 
piisnnderstood ;  let  me  understand  the  jury. 

'  Mr.  Erikine*    The  jury  do  understand  their  ver- 
dict 
Mr.  Justice  BulUr,   Sir,  I  will  not  be  interrupted. 
Mr.  Enkme,    1  stand  here  as  an  advocate  for  a 
brother  oitisdn,  and  I  desire  that  the  word  only  may 
Wreeorded.  . 

Mr.  Justice  BuUer.  Sit  down.  Sir;  remember 
your  duty,  or  I  shall  be  obliged  to  proceed  in  ano- 
ther manner. 

Mr.  Enkine.  Your  lordship  may  proceed  in  what 
vanner  yon  think  fit ;  I  know  my  duty  as  well  as 
your  loidship  knows  yours.  1  shall  not  alter  my 
conduct. 

Mr.  Justice  BvUer,  Gentlement,  if  yon  say  guilty 
of  publishing  only,  you  negative  the  meaning  of  the 
particular  words  1  luive  mentioned. 
A  Juror.  Then  we  b^  to  go  out 
Mr.  Justice  BuUer.  If  yon  say  guilty  of  publish- 
la;  ouly,  the  consequence  is  tUs,  that  you  negaUve 
the  meaning  of  the  different  words  I  mentioMd  to 
you—That  is  the  operation  of  the  word  onUf—Thej 
are  endeavouring  to  make  yon  give  a  verdict  in 
Fords  different  mm  what  you  mian, 

A  Juror,  We  should  be  very  glad  to  be  infonnod 
how  It  will  operate  ? 

Mr.  Justice  Bulter.  If  yon  say  aolUog  more  but 
lind  him  guilty  of  publishing,  and  leave  out  the  word 
4nUf,  the  question  of  law  Is  open  upon  the  r(H>ord, 
aad  they  may  apply  to  the  conr^  of  King's  bench, 
and  move  in  arrest  of  jodpnent  there.  If  they  an 
act  satisQed  with  the  opinion  of  that  Court,  either 
par^y  has  a  right  io  go  to  the  House  of  Lords,  if  yon 
ftid  nothing  more  than  the  simple  fkct;  but  if  you 
Add  the  word  only,  yon  do  not  find  all  the  fiwts ; 
yon  do  not  find  in  fact  that  the  letler  G,  means  Gen- 
tleman ;  that  R  means  Fanner ;  the  King,  the  King 
of  Great  Britaia ;  ftnd  Parliament,  the  Parliameat  of 
Great  Britain. 
A  Jitrtir.  We  admit  that. 
Mr.  Justice  BuUer,  Then  you  must  leave  oat  the 
word  onl^. 

Mr.  Erskme.  I  beg  pardon,  I  bog  to  ask  your 
lordship  this  qnestioa,  Whether,  If  the  jury  find  him 
|uilty  of  pabliflhiag,  leaving  out  the  word  eaJy,  aad 


if  the  judgment  is  not  arrested  by  the  court  of 
King'e'benoh,  whether  the  seditiott  does  not  stand 
jrecorded  ? 

Bir.  Justice  BuUer,  No,  it  does  not,  naless  tho 
pamphlet  be  a  libel  in  point  of  law. 

Mr.  Drtktne.  IVne ;  but  oan  I  say  that  the  do- 
fondant  did  not  publish  it  seditiously,  if  judgment  ia 
not  arrested,  but  entered  in  the  reoord  ? 

Mr.  Justice  BuUer.    I  say  it  will  not  st^d  an. 
proving  the  sedition.     Gentlemen,  I  tell  it  you  an 
law,  and  this  is  my  particular  salii^tion,  as  I  told 
you  when  summing  up  the  case ;  If  in  what  I  now 
say  to  you  I  am  wrong  in  any  instance,  they  have  a 
right  to  move  for  a  new  tri^.    The  law  is  this :  if 
yon  find  him  guilty  of  publishing,  without  saying 
more,  the  question  whether  libel  or  not  if  open  for 
the  considenUion  of  the  Coort    - 
A  Juror.    That  is  what  we  meiB. 
Mr.  Jostice  BuUtr,    If  you  say.  Guilty  of  pab- 
,  Ushing  only,  it  is  an  incomplele  verdict,  becanee  of 
t^  word  onbf, 

A  Juror,    We  oerlainly  mean  to  leave  Ihe  matter 
oflibel  to  the  Court 
Mr.  ErMte,    Do  you  find  sedition  ? 
A  Juror.   No ;  not  so.    We  do  not  give  any  ver- 
dict upon  it 

Mr.  Justice  BuUer.  I  speak  firom  adjudged  onief 
(I  will  take  the  verdict  when  yon  understand  it  your* 
selves  in  the  words  you  give  U) :  if  you  say.  Guilty 
of  publishing  only,  there  must  he  another  trial. 

A  Juror,  We  did  not  say  to ;  only  guilty  of  pub- 
Ushing. 

Mr.  Erikiue,    Will  your  lordship  allow  it  to  be 
recorded  thus,  oply  guilty  of  publishing  ? 
Mr.  Justice  BuUer.     It  is  misunderstood. 
Mr.  Enkine.    The  jury  say,  only  guilty  of  pub^ 
lishing.    Once  more,  I  desire  that  that  verdict  niaj 
be  recorded. 

Mr.  Justice  Butter.  If  yon  say,  only  gtrilty  of 
publishing,  then  it  is  contrary  to  thb'innoeodos;  if 
you  think  the  word  Ring  means  the  Ring  of  CienI 
Britain;  the  word  Parliament,  the  Parfiament  of 
Great  Britain ;  the  G.  means  Gentleman  ;'and  the  P. 
Vurmer ;  fou  wunf  soy  thu.  Guilty  of  publishing ;  b«a 
whether  a  libel  or  not,  the  Jury  do  not  find. 
jm  Juror,     X  es. 

Mr.  Enkuu,  I  asked  this  qaestion  of  yoor  lord- 
ship, in  the  hearing  of  the  jury,  whether,  upon  tlie 
veidiot  you  desire  theai  to  find,  the  sedition  which 
they  have  not  found,  will  not  be  inferred  by  tiha 
Court  if  judgment  is  not  arrested  ? 

Mr.  Justice  BuUer.  Will  you  attend  ?  Do  yo« 
give  It  in  this  way,  Guilty  of  tho  publicatioB,  bot 
whether  a  libel  or  not,  you  do  not  find  ? 

A  Juror,  We  do  not  And  it  a  libel,  my  lord;  wo 
do  not  decide  upon  it 

Mr.£rskme.    They  find  it  no  libel. 
Mr.  Justice  BuUer.    Y^u  sea  what  is  attempted  Io 
be  done? 

Mr.  JSrt^e.  There  u  nothing  wrong  alleHi|4ad 
upon  my  part.  I  ask  this  once  again  in  the  hsaiing^ 
of  the  jury ;  and  I  desire  an  answer  firom  yonr  lord- 
ship ae  judge,  whether  or  no,  when  I  come  to  move 
in  arrest  of  judgment,  and  the  Court  enter  up  jndg^ 
ment,  and  say  it  is  a  libel,  whether  I  can  afterwards 
say,  in  mitigation  of  punishment,  the  defendmit  waa 
not  gaiHy  of  paUiiUiig  it  wilb  a  Mdtlioai  ialM^ 


»53]. 


Jar  a  Seditious  LibeL 


A.  D.  178S. 


1954 


dcm,  I  am  sure  I  mean  nothing  that  is  irregu- 
Jar:  I  understand  the  jury  said,  they  only 
Ibund  that  the  dean  published  it. 

One  of  the  July.    Yes. 

Mr.  Ertkine,  They  only  find  that  the 
dean  published  this  pamphlet. 

Mr.  Broderick.  They  have  not  found  that 
U  is  a  libel  of  and  concerning  the  king  and 
bis  eovernmeat. 

Mr.  Justice  Butler.  I  asked  them  whether 
they  were  satisfied  that  the  kinz  meant  the 
king  of  Great  Dritainy  whether  uie  letter  G. 
meant  Gentleman,  and  the  letter  F.  meant 
Farmer ;  they  say  they  arc  satisfied.  Is  there 
any  other  innuendo  in  the  indictment? 

Mr.  Enkine.  When  the  jury  came  in, 
they  gave  the  very  verdict  that  was  nven  in 
the  case  of  the  Kins  aeainst  WoodfalT;  they 
sud  guilty  of  pubEsmng  only.  Gentlemen 
of  the  jurv,  do  you  mean  that  the  word  onfy 
ahall  stand  part  of  your  verdict  ? 

cine  bfthe  Jury,    Certainlv. 

Mr.  Justice  BuUer.  Gentlemen,  if  you  add 
the  word  onbf^  it  will  be  negativing,  or  at 
least  not  findmg  the  truth  of  ue  innuendos; 
that  I  understood  you  did  not  mean  to  do. 

Mr.  Erikint.  That  has  the  effect  of  a  ge- 
neral verdict  of  Guilty.  I  desire  your  lord- 
ship, sitting  here  as  judge,  to  record  the  ver- 
dict as  given  by  the  jury ;  if  the  Jury  demut 
from  the  word  onlv,  they  alter  their  verdict. 

Mr.  Justice  Bulttr,  I  will  take  their  ver- 
dict as  they  mean  to  give  it;  it  shall  not  be 
altered.  GenUemen,  do  you  mean  to  find  him 
jgidlty  /)f  publishing  the  iibel  ? 

Oneqf  the  Jury.  Of  pubUshing  the  pamphr 
let ;  we  don't  decide  upon  its  being  a  libel  or 
not. 

Mr.  Justice  Bulkr.  And  that  the  mean- 
ing of  the  innuendos  is  as  stated  in  the  in* 
dictment? 

One  of  the  Jury.    Yes,  certainly. 

when  lie  is  foiiii4  gvilty  of  psbliduqg  it  ia  nuuuisr 
and  fom  u  fUtod ;  aiid  whetker  tke  jury  u«  sol 
tku  BMdo  lo  fiod  hiiB  guilty  of  atdition,  when  in  the 
MOW  iBOBant  tkey  mj  tbej  did  not  metum  to  do  ao. 
GentleiBeii,  do  tou  fiud  him  guilty  of  Mdition  ? 

A  Juror.    We  do  not,  neither  one  or  the  other. 

Mr.  Jutioe  BulUr.    Take  the  verdiot 

AMsoeiate.  Yon  any,  Gnilty  of  pnbliahiog;  but 
whethor  n  libel  or  not  yon  do  not  find  ? 

A  Juror.    Hat  is  not  the  verdiet 

Mr.  Jnstioe  BuUer.  Yon  my,  Gnilty  of  publish- 
ing,  bnt  whether  n  libel  or  not  jon  do  not  find  ;  is 
atmt  jonr  meaning  ? 

A  Juror,    That  is  our  meanings 

One.  tf  the  CounteL  Do  yon  leave  the  intention 
to  the  Court? 

A  Juror.    Certainly. 

Mr.  Cowper.  Tlie  intention  arises  out  of  the  re> 
tford. 

Mr.  Justice  BuUer.  And  unlets  it  is  clear  upon 
the  veeord  there  ean  be  no  judgment  upon  it 

Mr.  Beareroft.  You  mean  to  leave  the  law  whera 
Uis? 

A  Juror.    Certainly. 

Mr.  Jlnstioe  BuUer.  The  first  verdiet  was  as  elear 
m  CMdd  be,  they  ^ly  wanted  it  to  be  ooofonnded. 


Mr.  Eptkine.  Would  you  have  the  word 
only  recorded  ? 

One  of  the  Jury.    Yes. 

Mr.  Ertkine.  Then  I  insist  that  it  shall 
be  recorded. 

Mr.  Justice  BuUer.  Mr.  Erskine,  sit  down, 
or  I  shall  be  obliged  to  interpose  in  some 
other  way. 

Mr.  Erskine.  Your  lordship  may  interpose 
in  what  manner  you  think  fit. 

Mr.  Justice  BuUer.  Gentlemen,  if  you  say 
goiity  of  publishing  only,  the  consequence 
IS,  that  you  negative  the  meaning  of  the  par- 
ticular words  fhave  mentioned--that  is  ,thd 
operation  of  the  word  only.  In  effect,  you 
would  give  a  verdict  in  words  contnuy  to 
what  you  mean. 

One  of  the  Jury.    How  will  it  operate? 

Mr.  Justice  MuUer.  If  you  say  nothing 
more,  but  find  him  guilty  of  ^ublishine,  the 

auestion  of  law  is  open  upon  the  record,  and 
tiey  have  a  right  to  apply  first  to  the  court 
of  King's-bench  to  arrest  the  judgment;  and 
if  they  are  not  satisfied  with  th^  opinion  of 
that  court,  either  party  has  a  right  to  eo  to 
the  House  of  Lords,  and  you  fiind  noSung 
more  bv  that  verdict  but  the  simple  fiict;  but 
if  you  find  him  guilty  of  publishing  only,  that 
verdict  will  not  mclude  the  innuendos  on  thtt 
record. 

One  of  the  Jury.    That  is  admitted. 

Mr.  £r$kine.  I  desire  to  ask  your  lordship 
this  question  in  the  hearing  of  the  iury,  Whe- 
ther if  they  find  the  verdict — Guilty  of  pub- 
lishing, leaving  out  the  word  only,  and  on  my 
application  to  arrest  the  judgment,  the  judg- 
ment shall  not  be  arrested,  but  entered  up  m 
the  Ring's-bench,  whether  the  sedition  docs 
not  stand  recorded  ? 

Mr.  Justice  BuUer.  No,  it  does  not,  unless 
the  pamphlet  be  a  libel  in  point  of  law. 

Mr.  Erskine,  True.  But  can  I  say  that 
the  defendant  did  not  publish  it  seditiously, 
if  judgment  is  not  arrested^  but  is  entered  in 
the  record } 

Mr.  Jus^ce  Bii/fer.  Gentlemen,  this  is  my 
satisfaction.  If  in  what  I  am  saying  to  you 
I  am  wrong  in  any  instance,4hey  have  a  right 
to  have  a  new  trial  directly  for  asking.  But 
I  must  tell  you  the  law  is  this :  If  you  find 
the  defendant  guilty  of  publishing,  without 
saying  any  more,  the  question  of  hbel  or  not 
is  open  to  the  consideration  of  the  Court ;  but 
if  you  say  he  b  guilty  of  publishing  only,  it  is 
an  incomplete  verdict. 

One  of  the  Jury.  We  certainly  mean  to 
leave  the  question  of  libel  or  not  to  the  con- 
sideration of  the  Court. 

Mr.  Er$kine.    Do  you  find  the  sedition  ? 

One  of  the  Jury.  We  give  no  verdict  upon 
it. 

Mr.  Justice  BuUer.  When  you  understand 
your  veidict  yourselves,  I  will  take  it  in  the 
manner  you  state  it.  If  you  say  guilty  of 
publishing  only,  there  must  be  another  Uial, 
because  the  verdict  will  be  imperfect. 

One  tfthe  Jury.    (^O;  we  did  not  say  that^ 


955] 


23  GEOBGE  III.     Proceedingi  agaUui  the  Dean  of  St.  Asaph,     [9$6 


ytt  put  the  w^r<l  wfy  first — Guilty  or^  of  | 
publishing. 

Mr.  Enkine.  I  desire,  with  great  sub- 
misftioa,  tht  juf^  having  said  guilty  onfy  of 
publishing,  that  it  may  be  so  recorded. 

Mr.  Justice  Buller.  Whether  you  say  guilty 
miUf  of  publishing,  or  guilty  of  publShing 
4nifyy  that  amounts  to  the  same  thii^.  You 
xnay  say  this,  *'  Guihy  of  publishing ;  but 
whether  it  is  a  libel  or  not  you  don't  know/' 
if  that  is  your  intention. 

One  of  lAe  Jury.    That  is  our  intention. 

!^r«  J  ustice  Bulkr.  Do  you  giv«  yow  vev- 
dlict  in  thb  way,  **  Guilty  of  pubhshing,  bu% 
whether  it  is  a  libel  or  not,  the  jury  don't 
Ipiow  ?" 

One  of  the  Jury,  We  don't  find  it  a  Ubel, 
my  lord ;  we  do  not  decide  upon  it. 

Mr.  Er$kw,    They  find  it  no  libel. 

Mr.  Justice  BuUer.  See  what  is  attempted 
to  be  done. 

Mr.  Erskine,  There  is  no  improper  at- 
tempt upon  my  part.  I  ask  this  ofyour  lord- 
ship, and  desire  an  answer,  as  a  judge.  Whe- 
ther or  no,  if,  when  I  come  to  move  in  arrest 
of  iudgmenty  and  the  Court  should  enter  up 
ju^y;ment,^8aving,  that  it  is  a  libel,,  whether  X 
can.afterwaras  sav,  in  mitigation  of  punish- 
snenly  that  the  defendant  did  not  publish  it 
seditiously,  when  he  is  found  guilty  of  pulvr 
lishine  it  in  mann«-  and  form  as  stated? 
Therefore  the  jury  are  made  to  find  a  man 
euilty  of  sedition,  when  in  the  same  moment 
they  say  they  did  not  mean  so  to  do.  Gen- 
tlemeUydo  you  find  the  dean  guilty  of  sedi- 
tion? 

One  rftk^  Jury.  We  neither  find  the  one 
nor  the  other. 

Mr.  Price  (Associate).  Do  you  say  <•'  Guilty 
i»f  publishing,  but  whether  a  tibel  or  not  you 
do  not  find  f' 

Mr.  Ju^Uee  Buller.   Is  that  your  meaning  ? 

One  of  the  Jury,    It  is  our  meaning. 

Mr.  Bearcrqfi,  All  you  mean  is  to  leave 
the  law  where  it  is  ? 

One  i^ihe  Jury.  That  is  all  our  meaning. 

Mr.  Justice  Buller.  The  intention  of  tne 
jury  was  from  the  first  as  clear  as  it  could  be, 
only  they  wanted  to  confound  it. 

The  Associate  recorded  the  Verdict,  *  Guilty 

*  of  pubUshing,  but  whether  a  libel  or  not  the 

*  juiy  do  pot  find.' 


Of  the  farther  Proceedings  in  this  Case,  the 
following  Report  is  printed  in  the ''  Speeches 
of  the  Hon.  Thomas  Erskine :" 

On  the  8th  of  November,  the  second  day 
of  the  ensuing  term,  Mr.  Erskine  moved  the 
Court  of  King's-bench  to  set  aside  the  verdict, 
fbr  the  misdirection  of  the  Judge  in  the  fore- 
going Charge  to  the  Jury,  and  obtsdned  a  rule 
to  show  cause,  why  there  should  not  be  a 
new  Trial. 


Mr.  £asKU«B's  Speech,  in  the  Court  of  Ring's- 
Bench,  pn  Monday  the  8th  of  Novem-. 
her  1784,  on  hb  Motion  for  a  New 
Trial  in  the  Case  of  the  Dean  of  St. 
Asaph. 

Mr.  Erskine  began  by  stating  to  the  Court 
the  substance  of  the  indictment  against  the 
dean  of  St.  Asaph,  which  charged  the  public 
lication  with  an  intention  to  incite  the  people 
to  subvert  the  government  by  armed  rebel* 
lion ; — the  mere  evidence  of  the  publication 
of  the  Dialogue  which  the  prosecutor  had  re- 
lied on  to  establish  thatmahcious  intention,— « 
and  the  manner  in  which  the  defendant  luidy 
by  evidence  of  his  real  motives  fi>r  publishing 
it,  as  contained  in  the  advertisement,  rebutlea 
the  truth  of  the  epithets  charged  by  the.  in* 
dictment. 

He  then  stated  the  substance  of  his  speech 
to  the  jury  at  Shrewsbury,  maintaiidi^  the 
legality  of  the  Dialogue,  the  right  of  the  jury 
ts  consider  that  lenity,  the  injustice  of  a 
verdict  affixing  the  epithet  oifuitty  to  a  pub- 
lication, without  first  considenng  whether  tht 
thing  published  contuned  any  guiU.;  and, 
above  all,  the  right  which  the  jury  unoues* 
tionably  had  (even  upon  the  authority  of  tnos« 
very  cases  wged  a^nst  his  client)  to  take  ths 
evidence  into  consideration,  by  which  the  de« 
fendant  sought  to  exculpate  himself  firom  the 
seditious  intention  charged  by  the  indict- 
ment. 

He  said  that  the  substance  of  Mr.  Jones'f 
evidence  was,  that  it  had  been  the  mteniiaa  tf 
the  JEUntihire  Committee  to  tramlate  the  jDm- 
logue  into  Welsh ;  that  it  v^as  delivered  to  him 
to  give  to  a  Mr.  Uoyd  for  that  piirpose ;  that 
the  dean  had  jud  then  received  U  from  sir 
William  Jonee,  and  had  not  had  time  to  read 
it  before  he  delivcted  it  to  the  witness.  Some 
days  after,  Mr.  Jones  wrote  to  the  dean,  iell- 
ing  him,  that  he  had  collected  the  opinions  of 
some  goitlemen  that  the  translation  of  it  into 
Welsh  mi^t  do  harm:  the  dean's  answer 

(who  had  never  then  reap  the  TRIVO  Bllf- 

sslf)  was  this,  '  I  am  very  much  obliged  to 
'  you  for  what  you  have  communicated  re- 
'  specting  the  pamphlet;  I  should  be  exceed- 
'  ing  sorry  to  publish  any  thiujg  tliat  should 
'tend  to* sedition.*  Mr.  Erskme  contended 
that  it  was  no  admission  on  the  dean's  part 
that  he  thought  it  seditious,  for  he  had  never 
read  it ;  but  that  his  conduct  showed  that  he 
was  not  seditiously  inclined,  since  he  stopped 
the  publication  even  in  compliance  with  thd 
affected  scruples  of  men  whom  he  found  out^ 
on  reading  it,  to  be  both  wicked  and  ignorant ; 
and  the  translation  of  it  into  Welsh  was  ac- 
cordingly dropped. 

Mr.  Jones  had  farther  said,  that  many  per- 
sons afterwards,  and  particularly  Mr.  ritz- 
maurice,  made  very  free  wit*h  the  dean*s  cha» 
racter,  for  havine  entertained  an  idea  of  trans- 
lating it  into  Welsh;  it  was  publicly  men- 
tion^At  the  general  meeting  of  the  county. 


957] 


Jwr  a  Seditious  LiM* 


A.  D.  1783. 


[958 


and  many  ofHpvobrious^epithets  foein^  fastened 
on  the  Dialogne  itself^  the  dean  said,  '  I  am 

*  now  called  upon  to  show  that  it  is  notseditiouif 

*  and  1  read  it  with  a  rope  about  my  neck,* 

Mr.  Erskine  then  spoke  as  follows  veiw 
batim: 

My  lord^  although  this  is  not  the  place  for 
any  commentary  on  the  evidence,  I  cannot 
help  remarking^  that  this  expression  was 
strong  proof  that  the  dean  diu  not  think  it 
seditious;  for  it  is  absurd  to  sufypoee  that  a 
man,  feetine  hurt  at  the  accusation  of  sedi- 
tion, should  say,  I  am  now  called  upon  to 
show  I  am  not  seditious,  and  then  proceed  to 
read  that  aloud,  which  he  felt  and  heUeved  to 
cantain  sedition.  The  words  which  follow, 
'  I  read  it  with  a  rope  aboUt  mjr  neck,'  con- 
firm this  constmction.  The  obvious  sense  of 
which  is-^I  am  now  called  upon  to  show  that 
this  Dialogue  is  not  seditious ; — it  has  never 
been  read  by  those  who  call  it  so ; — I  will 
read  it  in  itst>wn  vindication,  and  in  mine — 
^  /  read  it  with  a^vpe  about  my  neck,*  that  is — 
if  it  be  treasonable,  as  is  asserted,  it  is  a  mis- 
dsraoanor  to  read  it ;  but  I  am  so  convinced 
of  Its  innocenoe,  that  I  read  it  notwithstand- 
ine^--«eo  petieulo. 

The  onl^  part  of  Mr.  Joneses  evidence  which 
femains,  is  as  follows :  I  asked  him,  *  Did 
'  you  collect,  irom  what  the  dean  said,  that 
^  his  opinion  was,  that  ^  Dialogue  was  con- 
f  stiUitioAal   and  lecal?'   His  ansfTer  was: 

*  Un DooBTiDLY.  The  dean  said.  Now  I  have 
'^  read  this,  I  do  not  think  it  so  bad  a  thine ; 
'  and  I  think  we  ought  to  publish  it,  in  ifin- 

*  dieatum  of  the  Committee.*  The  question  and 
answer  must  be  taken  in  fairness  together: — 
the  witness  was  asked  if  he  collected  from 
4he  dean,  that  he  thought  it  innocent  and 
conaututional,  and  the  nrst  term  in  the  an- 
awer  is  decisive;  that  the  witness  did  not 
meiely  think  it  lcss  caiMiKAL  than  it  had 
been  supposed,  }mt^  peiiectly  conttitutional '; 
ibr  he  says,  <  Undoubtedly  1  collected  that  he 

*  thought  so.*  The  dean  said,  he  thought  he 
4)iigfat  to  publish  it  in  vindication  of  the  Com- 
mittee; and  it  is  repugnant  to  common  sense, 
40  believe  that  if  tne  dean  had  supposed  die 
Dialogue  m  atiy  degree  criminal,  he  would 
have  proposed  to  pijblish  it  himself,  in  vindi*- 
cation  of  a  fbkmer  mtentk>n  of  publication  by 
the  Committee.-— It  would  have  been  a  con- 
'ivmation,  not  a  recitation  of  the  charge. 

The  Jearned  judge,  after  reciting  the  evi- 
<deBce,  whieh  I  have  just  been  statins  (merely 
as  a  Dftatter  a[  form,  since  afterwaras  it  was 
laid  wholly  out  of  the  question),  began  by 
telling  the  iunr,  that  he  was  astonish^  at  a 
great  deal  he  htid  heard  from  the  defendants 
counsel;  for  that  he  did  not  knoiAr  anv  one 
^luestion.  of  law  more  thoroughly  settledi  than 
tne  doctrine  of  libels,  «s  be  proposed  to  state 
4t  to  them  :^t  then  beeame  my  turn  to  be 
astonished.  Mr.  Justiee  BuUer  then  prooeeded 
'to  state,  that  what  had  follen  from  me,  name- 
^jAT^tbat  the  jury  had  a  right  to  consider  the 


libel,  VMS  only  the  language  of  a  party  in  thii 
country  ;  but  that  the  contrary  of  their  notiont 
was  §0  well  established^  that  no  man  who  meant 
well,  could  doubt  concerning  it.* 

It  appeared  afterwards  that  Mr.  Lee  and 
myself  were  members  of  this  party;  though 
my  friend  was  charged  with  having  deserted 
his  colours;  as  he  was  the  first  aiHfaority 
that,  was  cited  against  me;  and  what  readered 
the  authority  more  curious,  the  learned  judge 
mentioned,  that  he  had  delivered  his  dictmm 
at  Guildhall  as  counsel  for  a  plaintiff,  wliaa 
these  doctrines  mieht  have  been  convenient 
for  the  interests  of  his  client,  and  therefore  no 
evidence  of  his  opinion.  This  quotation,  how« 
every  had  perhaps  more  weight  with  ^e  jwy 
than  all  that  followed,  and  certaitlly  the  no* 
velty  of  it  entitled  it  to  attention.  % 

I  hope,  however,  the  sentiments  imputed 
to  my  friend  were  not  necessary  upon  that 
occasion;  if  they  were,  has  client  was  be- 
traved :  for  I  was  myself  in  the  oause  al- 
luded to ;  and  I  take  upon  me  t»  affinn,  that 
Mr.  Lee  did  not,  directly  or  indirect^,  utter 
any  sentimeiit  in  the  most  remote  desree  re- 
sembling that  which  the  learned  judge  was 
pleased  to  impute  to  him  for  the  support  of 
nis  charge.  This  I  sliall  continue  to  affirm, 
notwithstanding  the  judge's  declaration  to  tha 
contrary,  until  f  am  contradicted  bjr  Mr.  Lee 
himseli,  who  is  here  to  answer  me  if  I  misre- 
present him.  fMr.  Lee  confirmed  Mr.  Er- 
skine by  remaining  silent.] 

The  learned  Jirage  then  said,  that  as  to 
whether  the  Dialogue,  which  was  the  sub* 
ject  of  the  prosecution,  was  crimkial  or  in- 
nocent, he  should  not  even  hint  an  opinion^ 
for  that  if  he  should  declare  it  to  be  no  hkel, 
and  the  Jury f  adopting  that  opinion,    sifould 
acquit  the  drfenaant,  he  should  thereby  d^ 
priroe  the  prosecutor  of  his  right  (f  appeal 
upon  the  record ;  which  was  one  of  the  dearest 
iSrthrights    of  the  subject .-^Theit   the   law 
was  equal  as  between  the  prosecutor  and 
defendant;  and  that  there  was  no  differenca 
between  criminal  and  civil  cases.— I  am  de- 
sirous not  to  interrupt  the  state  of  the  trial 
by  observations ;  but  cannot  help  remarking^ 
that  justice  to  the  prosecutor  as  standing  ex- 
actly in  equal  scales  with  a  prisoner,  and  in 
the  lieht Wan  adverse  party  in  a  civil  suit, 
was  uie  first  reason  given  by  the  learned 
judge,  why  the  juiy  should  at  all  events  find 
the  oefendant  guilty,  without  investigating 
his  guilt    This  was  telling  the  junr  in  tha 
I^nest  terms,  that  tkiey  could  not  find  a  gO" 
neral  verdict  infamnir  of  the  defendant,  with- 
out an  act  (f  injustice  to  the  prosecutor,  who 
would  be  shut  out  bv  it  from  his  writ  of  error, 
-which  he  was  entitled  to  bv  law,  and  whicb 
was  the  best  birthright  of  the  subject. — It 
was,  therefore,  an  absolute  denial  of  tne  right 
of  the  jury,  and  of  the  judge  also,  as  no  right 
can  exist;  which  Hedessarily  works  a  wrong  in 


*  SMp^-M^oftUft^^UiM* 


«69] 


25  GEORGE  III.     Proceedings  agaimt  the  Dean  of  SL  AsafA,     [960 


the  exercise  of  it.  If  the  prosecutor  had  by 
law  a  right  to  have  the  question  on  the  re- 
cord, the  judge  and  jury  were  both  tied  up  at 
the  trial;  the  one  from  directing,  and  the 
other  firom  finding  a  ^verdict  which  disappoints 
cd  that  right. 

If  the  prosecutor  had  a  right  to  have  the 
question  upon  the  record,  for  the  purpose  of 
appeal^  by  the  jury  confining  themselves  to 
the  fact  of  publication,  which  would  leave 
that  question  open,  it  is  impossible  to  say, 
that  uie  jury  had  a  right  likewise  to  judge  of 
the  question  of  libel,  and  to  acquit  the  de- 
fendant, which  would  deprive  the  prosecutor 
of  that  right  There  cannot  be  contradic^tory 
rights,  the  exercise  of  one  destroying  and  an- 
nihikting  the  other.  I  shall  discuss  this  new 
claim  of  the  prosecutor  upon  a  fiiture  ooca^ 
sion ;  for  the  present^  I  will  venture  to  say, 
that  no  man  has  a  neht,-Hi  nroperty,— or  a 
beneficial  interest  in  the  punishment  of  ano- 
ther. A  prosecution  at  the  instance  of  the 
crown  has  public  justice  alone,  and  not  pri- 
,  fate  vengeance,  for  its  object : — ^in  prosecu- 
tions for  murder,  and  felonies  and  most  other 
misdemeanors,  the  prosecutor  can  have  no 
such  pretence,  since  the  record  does  not  com- 
prehend the  offence. — ^Why  he  should  have 
It  in  the  case  of  a  libel,  I  would  gladly  be  in- 
formed. 

The  learned  judge  then  stated  your  lord- 
ship's uniform  practice,  in  trying  libels,  for 
eight  and  twenty  years, — ^the  acquiescence  of 
puties  and  their  counsel,  and  the  ratification 
of  the  principle,  by  a  judgment  of  the  court, 
i|i  the  case  of  the  Kmg  against  Woodfall. — 
^  He  likewise  cited  a  case,  which  he  said,  hap- 
pened within  a  year  or  two  of  the  time  of  the 
seven  Bishops^  m  which  a  defendant,  indicted 
for  a  seditious  libel,  desired  it  might  be  leit 
to  the  jurv,  whether  the  paper  was  seditious ; 
but  that  the  court  said,  the  juj^  were  to  de- 
cide upon  the  fact ;  and  that  if  they  found 
him  guilty  of  the  fact^  the  court  womd  after- 
wards decide  the  question  of  libel.  The 
learned  jud^e  then  cited  the  maxim,  ad  qiut$- 
tionem  Jactt  respondent  juratorei^  aid  qtuu- 
tionem  juris  respondent  judicesy  and  said,  that 
maxim  had  been  confirmed  in  the  sense  he 
put  on  it  in  the  very  case  of  Bushell,  on 
which  X  had  relied  so  much  for  the  contraiy 
position. 

Thf»  learned  jud^,  after  honourine  some  of 
,my  |ff|^|uments  witli  answers,  and  saying 
again,  in  stronger  terms  tlum  before,  that 
there  was  no  dinerence  between  the  province 
of  the  jury  in  civil  and  criminal  cases,  not- 
withstanding the  universality  of  the  general 
issue  instead  of  specid  pleadings,  told  the 
juiy,  that  if  they  believed  that  G,  meant  Oen- 
tlemany  and  F.  meant  Farmer,  the  matter  for 
their  consideration  was  reduced  to  the  simple 
fact  of  publication. 

The  Court  will  please  to  recollect,  that  the 
advertisements,  explaining  the  dean's  senti- 
ments .concerning  he  pamphlet,  and  his  mo- 
tives for  the  pubucationof  It  ia  English^  siter 


it  had  been  given  up  in  Welsh,  bad  been 
read  in  evidence  to  the  jury  :->that  Mr.  Jones 
had  been  likewise  examined  to  the  same  ef- 
fect, to  induce  the  jury  to  believe  the  adver^ 
tisement  to  have  been  prefixed  to  it  bonAfide, 
and  to  have  spoken  the  genuine  sentiments 
and  motives  of  the  publisher:— and  that  se- 
veral gentlemen,  of  the  first  character  in  the 
dean's  neighbourhood  in  Wales,,  had  been 
called  to  spieak  to  his-  general  peaceable  de- 
portment, in  order  to  stren^hen  that  proof, 
and  to  resist  the  assent  of  the  jury  to  the 
principal  averment  in  the  information,  viz. 
That  the  defendant  pubUshed,  intending  to  ex* 
cite  a  retfolution  in  the  government^  by  armed 
rebellion.  Whether  all  this  evidence,  given 
for  the  defendant,  was  adequate  to  its  pur- 
pose, is  foreign  to  the  present  enquiry. — I 
tbink'it  was. — But  my  olpection  is,  that  no  pari 
of  it  was  left  to  the  consuieration  ^  the  jury, 
who  were  the  Judges  of  it.  As  to  the  adver- 
tisement,  which  was  part  of  the  pamphlet 
itself,  the  learned  judge  never  even  named  it, 
but  as  part  of  the  prosecutor's  proof  of  the 
publication,  though  I  had  read  it  to  the  jury, 
and  insisted  upon  it  as  sufficient  proof  of 
the  defendant's  intention,  and  I  had  odled 
Mr.  Jones  to  confirm  the  construction  I  put 
upon  it. 

As  to  Mr.  Jones's  testimony,  Mr.  Justice 
Buller  said.  Whether  his  evidence  will  or 
'  will  not  operate  in  mitiottion  of  punish- 
^  ment,  is  not  a  question  Tor  me  to  give  an 
^opinion  upon.'  And  he  farther  declared; 
that  if  the  juiy  were  satisfied  as  to  the  foct  of 
the  publication,  they  were  bound  to  find  the 
defendsmt  guil^.  As  to  the  evidence  of  cha- 
racter, it  was  disposed  of  in  the  same  man* 
ner.  Mr.  Justice  Buller  said,  ^  As  to  the  se- 
^  veral  witnesses  who  have  been  called  to 
^  give  Mr.  Shipley  the  chanicter  of  a  quiet 
<  and  peaceable  man,  not  disposed  to  stir  up 
^  sedition,  that  cannalt  govern  the  present  ^aics- 
'  tion  ;  for  the  question  you  are  to  decide  om 
'  is.  Whether  he  he,  or  be  not,  guilty  of  publish* 

This  cnai]ge,  therefore,  contained  an  ex* 
press  exclusion  of  the  risht  of  the  jury  tm 
consider  the  evidence  ofired  by  the  4efen«» 
dant,  to  rebut  the  inference  of  sedition  aris- 
ingfrpm  the  act  of  publication. 

The  learned  judge  repeated  the  sane  doc- 
trine at  the  end  of  his  chaige ;  eotirely  re- 
moving fiom  the  iury  the  consideration  of 
the  whole  of  the  oefendanf  s  evidence,  and 
concluded  by  tellii^  them, '  2^^  tfth^  were 
'  satined  as  to  the  truth  of  the  innuendos  and 
*  the  fact  of  publkation,  they  were  bound  to 
^  find  the  defendant  guiUy.'  The  jury  retired 
to  consider  of  this  charge,  and  brought  in  a 
veidict«  *  Guilty  of  pubushint  o^ily.'  The 
learnea  judee  refused  to  record  it,  and  I  aa 
ready  to  aomit  that  it  was  an  imperfect  ver- 
dict.— He  was  not  bound  to  recttve  it;  but 
when  he  saw  the  jury  had  no  doubt  of  the 
truth  of  the  innuendos,  and  that  therefore  the 
word  ONLY  could  not  appl^  to  a  negation  of 

t 


9617 


Jar  a  Seditiotis  LibeL 


thenr;  he  should  have  asked  them  whether 
they  believed  the  defendant's  witnesses,  and 
meant  to  negative  the  seditious  purpose?  It 
was  the  more  his  duty  to  have  asked  that 
qiiestion,  as  several  of  the  jury  themselves 
said  that  they  gave  no  opinion  concerning  se- 
ditious intention:  a  declaration  decisive  in 
the  defen<&nt's  favour,  who  had  gone  into 
evidence  to  rebut  the  charge  of  intention, 
and  of  which  the  judge,  who,  in  the  humane 
theory  of  the  English  law,  ought  to  be  coun- 
sel for  the  prisoner,  should  at  the  least  have 
taken  care  to  obtain  an  explanation  from  the 
jury,  by  asking  them  what  their  opinion  was, 
instead  of  arguing  upon  the  principle  of  his 
oam  charge,  what  it  necessarily  mtut  be,  if  the 
imiuendos were  believed;  a  position  which 
gave  the  go-by  to  tlie  difficulties  of  the  jury. 
Their  intention  to  exclude  the  seditious  pur- 
pose was  palpable ;  and  under  such  circum- 
stances, the  excellent  remark  of  the  great 
Mr.  Justice  Foster  never  should  be  forgotten : 

*  When  the  rigour  of  the  law  borderetn  upon 
'iniustice,  mercy  ought  to  interpose  in  the 

*  administration.    It  is  not  the  part  of  judges 

*  to  be  perpetually  hunting  after  forfeitures, 

*  while  the  heart  is  free  from  guilt.  They 
«  arc  the  ministers  of  the  crown,  appointed 

*  for  the  ends  of  public  justice,  and  ought  to 
^  have  written  upon  their  hearts  the  obi iga- 

*  tion  whkh  his  majesty  is  under,  to  cause 

*  law  and  justice  in  mercy  to  be  executed  in 

*  all  his  judgments.'  This  solemn  obligation 
18  no  doubt  written  upon  the  hearts  of  Sil  the 
judges ;  but  it  is  unfortunate  when  it  happens 
to  be  written  in  so  illegible  a  hand  that  a  jury 
cannot  possibly  read  it. 

To  every  part  of  the  learned  judge's  direc- 
tionsy  I  have  objections  which  appear  to  me 
to  be  weighty.  I  will  state  them  distinctly, 
and  m  their  order,  as  shortly,  or  as  much  at 
krge,  as  the  Coiirt  shall  require  of  me. 

The  first  proposition  which  I  mean  to 
maintain  as  a  foundation  for  a  new'  trial^  is 
this : 

Then  when  a  bill  of  indictment  is  found,  or 
an  information  filed,  charging  any  crime  or 
misdemeanor  known  to  the  law  of  England, 
and  the  party  accused,  puts  himself  upon  the 
country  by  pleading  the  general  issue.  Not 
Ouitty; — the  jury  are  generally  charged 
with  his  deliverance  from  that  crime,  and 
Hot  SPECIALLY  from  tho.fact  or  fkcts,  in  the 
commission  of  which  the  indictment  or  in- 
fbanation  charges  the  crime  to  consist ;  much 
less  from  any  single  fact  to  the  exclusion  of 
others  charged  upon  the  same  record. 

Seco^ly,  I  nwn  to  maintain  that  no  act 
which  the  law  in  its  general  theory  holds  to 
be  criminal,  constitutes  in  itself  a  crime  ab- 
atracted  from  the  mischievous  intention  of 
the  actor;  and  that  the  intention,  even  where 
it  becomes  a  simple  inference  of  reason  from 
a  fact  or  facts  established,  may,  and  ought  to 
be,  coileclBd  by  the  jury  with  the  judge*s  as- 
sistance; because  the  act  charged,  though 
established  as  a  fact  in  a  trial  on  the  general 
VOL.  XXL 


A.  D.  lTSf5.  [96^ 

issue,  does  not  necessarily  and  unavoidably 
establish  the  criminal  intention  by  any  ab- 
stract conclusion  of  law;  the  establishment 
of  the  fact  bein^  still  no  more  than  evidence 
of  the  crime,  out  not  the  crime  tTsELr, 
unless  the  jiu*y  render  it  so  themselves  by 
referring  it  voluntarily  to  the  Court  by  spe- 
cial verdict. 

I  wish  to  explain  this  proposition. 

When  a  jury  can  discover  no  other  reason- 
able  foundation  for  judging  of  the  intention, 
than  the  inference  from  the  act  charged,  and 
doubting  wtiat  that  inference  ought  to  be  in 
law,  refer  it  to  the  court  by  special  verdict, 
the  intention  becomes  by  that  inference  a 
question  of  law';  but  it  only  becomes  so  by 
tnis  voluntary  declaration  of  the  jury,  that 
they  mean  the  party  accused  shall  stand  or 
fall  by  the  abstract  legal  conclusion  fn)n\ 
the  act  charged,  from  their*  not  being  able  to 
decipher  his  purpose  by  any  other  medium. 

But  this  discretionary  reference  to  the 
court  upon  particular  occasions,  which  may 
render  rt  wise  and  expedient,  does  not  abridge 
or  contract  the  power  or  the  duty  of  a  jury, 
under  other  circumstances,  to  withhold  \hcir 
consent  from  the  intention  being  taken  as  a 
legal  consequence  of  the  act;  even  when 
they  have  had  no  evidence  capable  of  being 
stated  on  the  face  of  a  special  verdict,  they 
may  still  find  a  general  verdict,  founded  on  * 
their  judgment  ot  the  crime,  and  the  inten- 
tion of  the  party  accused  cf  it. 

When  I  say,  that  the  jury  may  consider 
the  crime,  and  the  intention,  I  desire  to  be 
understood  to  mean,  not  merely  that  they 
have  the  power  to  do  it  without  controul  or 
punishment,  and  without  the  possibility  of 
their  acquittal  being  disannulled  by  any  other 
authoritv  (for  that  no  man  can  deny) ;  but  I 
mean,  that  they  have  a  constitutional  legal 
RIGHT  to  do  so;  a  right,  in  manv  cases,  pro^ 
per  to  be  exercised,  and  intended  by  the  wise 
founders  of  the  English  government  to  be  a 

f protection  to  the  lives  and  liberties  of  £ng- 
bhmen,  against  the  encroachments  and  ner- 
versions  ot  authority  in  the  hands  of  fixed 
magistrates.  ^ 

'ine  establishment  of  both,  or  either  of 
these  two  propositions,  must  entitle  me  to  a 
new  trial;  for  if  the  jury^  on  the  general 
issue,  had  a  strictly  legal  jurisdiction  to  judge 
of  the  libellous  nature,  or  seditious  tendency 
of  the  paper  (taking  that  nature  or  tendency 
to  be  law  or  fact),  then  the  judge's  direction 
is  evidently  unwarrantable.  If  ne  had  said. 
As  libel  or  no  libel  requires  a  legsil  appre- 
hension of  the  subject,  it  is  my  duty  to  give* 
you  my  opinion ;  and  had  then  said,  I  think 
it  is  a  libel,  and  had  left -the  jury  to  find  it 
one  under  his  directions,  or  otherwise,  at 
their  discretion,  and  had  at  the  same  time 
told  them  that  the  criminal  intention  was  an 
inference  from  the  publication  of  a  lib«l, 
which  it  was  their  duty  to  make, — or  if,  ad- 
mitting their  right  in  general,  he  had  advised 
'■  a  special  verdict  in  the  particular  instance,  I 

I      3Q 


963J 


2d^G£ORG£  III.     ProceetUngi  against  the  Dean  ofSL  Asaph,     [9&k 


bbould  liave  stood  in  a  very  different  situa- 
tion ;  but  he  told  the  jury  (I  take  the  eeneral 
result  of  his  whole  charge),  that  they  nad  no 
jurisdiction  to  consider  of  the  libel,  or  of  the 
intention;  both  being  beyond  the  compass  of 
their  oath. 

Mr.  Bearcrofl*s  pnosition  was  very  different; 
he  addressed  the  jury  with  the  honest  can- 
dour of  a  judge,  without  departing  fi^m  the 
proper  zeal  of  an  advocate.  He  said  to  the 
jury-—!  cannot  honour  him  more  than  by  re- 
•  peatinff  his  words ;  they  will  long  be  remem- 
bered By  those  who  respect  him,  and  love  the 
constitution : — 

*  There  is  no  law  in  this  countvy,'  said  Mr. 
Bearcroft,  (<  thank  God,  there  is  not;  for  it 
'  would  not  be  a  free  constitution  if  there  were,) 


as  the  palladium  of  the  constitution.  But 
'  does  it  follow,  because  a  jury  nu^  do  this, 
'  that  they  mutt  do  it — that  they  ouaHT  to  do 
*  it  ?'  He  then  took  notice  of  the  case  of  the 
Seven  Bishops,  and  honoured  the  jury  for  ex- 
ercising this  rieht  on  that  occasion. 

Mr.  Bearcron's  position  is  therefore  manly 
and  intelligible ;  it  b  simply  this :  It  is  the  ex- 
cellence of  the  English  constitution  that  you 
may  exert  this  power  when  you  think  the  sea- 
son warrants  the  exercise  of  it  The  case  of 
the  Seven  Bishops  was  sudi  a  season,  this  is 
not. 

But  Mr.  Justice  Buller  did  by  no  means 
ratify  this  doctrine.  It  is  surely  not  too  much 
to  expect  that  the  judge,  who  is' supposed  to 
be  counsel  for  the  prisoner,  should  keep 
within  the  bounds  of  tne  counsel  for  the  crown, 
when  a  crown  prosecution  is  in  such  hands 
as  Mr.  Bearcroil's. — The  learned  ju(%e,  how- 
ever, told  the  jury  from  his  own  authority, 
and  supported  it  with  much  history  and  ob- 
servation, and  mai^  quotations,  that  they 
bad  nothing  to  do  at  all  with  those  questions, 
their  jurisdiction  over  which  Mr.  Bearcrot^ 
had  rejoiced  in  as  t|ie  palladium  of  the  consti- 
tution.—He  did  not  tell  them  this  by  way  of 
advice,  as  applied  to  the  particular  case  before 
them ;— he  did  not  (admitting  their  r^ht)  ad- 
vise them  to  forbear,  the  exercise  of  it  in  the 
parikuhr  iiutance  s — ^no !  the  learned  judge 
fastened  an  ukiversal  abstract  Umitatiun 
on  the  province  of  the  jury  to  Judge  of  the 
crime^or  the  criminal  purpose  of  the  defend- 
ant.— ^His  Mrhole  speecn  laid  down  this  limita* 
jlionQMi VERSA LLY,  and  was  so  understood  by 
the  jurv ;  he  told  them  these  questions  were 
beyond  the  compass  of  their  oaliis,  which  was 
confined  to  the  decision  of  the  fact ;  and  he 
.drove  them  from  the  law  by  the  terrors  of 
consctence.-^The  conclusion  is  short. 

If  the  jury  have  no  jurisdiction  by  the  law 
of  England,  to  examine  the  question  of  libel, 
and  the  criminality  or  innocence  of  the  inten- 
tion of  tlie  publisher,  then  the  judge's  charge 
was  right :  out  if  they  have  jurisduction,  and 
if  their  having  it  be  the  palladium  of  the  go- 


vernment, it -must  be  wrong.  For  how,  in 
common  sense,  can  that  power  in  a  jury  be 
called  the  palladium  of^  the  constitation, 
which  can  never  be  exerted,  but  by  a  breach 
of  those  rules  of  law,  which  tlie  same  consti- 
tution has  established  for  their  government? 

If  in  no  COMB  a  jury  can  entertain  such  a 
question  without  stepping  beyond  their  duty, 
it  is  an  afifront  to  human  reason  to  say,  that 
the  safety  of  the  government  depends  oa 
men's  violating  their  oaths  in  the  administm- 
tion  of  justice.  If  the  jury  have  that  rights 
there  is  no  difference  between  restricting  tiie 
exercise  of  it  by  the  terrors  of  imprisonment, 
or  the  tenors  of  conscience. — ^If  ttiem  be  any 
difference,  the  second  is  the  most  dangerous ; 
an  upright  juryman,  like  Bushell,  would  de- 
spise the  nrst,  but  his  very  honesty  would 
render  him  the  dupe  of  the  last 

The  two  forhier  propositions  on  which  my 
motion  is  founded,  applying  to  all  criminal 
cases; — and  a  distinction  having  always  beea 
taken  between  libels  and  other  crimes  by 
those  who  suf^rt  the  doctrines  I  am  com* 
bating;— 'I  mean  therefore  to  maintain,  that 
an  indictment  for  a  hbel,  even  where  the 
slander  of  an  individual  is  the  olnect  of  it 
(which  is  capable  of  being  measured  by  pre- 
cedents of  justice),  forms  no  exception  to  the 
jurisdiction  or  duties  of  juries,  or  the  practice 
of  judges  in  other  criminal  cases: — that  the 
argument  for  the  difference,  vix.  because  the 
whole  crime  always  appears  upon  the  record^ 
is  false  in  fact,  and,  even  if  tnie,  would  Ibnn 
no  solid  or  substantial  difference  in  law. 

I  said,  that  the  record  does  not  always  eon* 
tain  sufficient  for  the  court  to  judge  of* 
libel.  The  crown  may  indict  part  of  a  m^li- 
cation,  and  omit  the  rest,  which  woukl  have 
explained  the  author's  meaning,  and  rendered 
it  harmless :  it  has  done  so  here;  the  adver- 
tisement is  part  of  the  puUication,  but  no 
part  of  the  record. 

The  famous  case  put  by  Algernon  Sidney, 
is  tlie  best  illustration  that  can  possibly  be 
put. 

Suppose  a  bookseller  having  published  the 
Bible,  was  indicted  in  these  words^  *  That  in- 
'  tenoing  to  promote  atheism  and  irreUgiMi. 
'  he  had  blasphemously  printed  and  pubhshed 
'  the  following  false  and  piofime  libel, — * 
<  There  is  no  God.'-^The  lesjrned  ju^ge  sudi 
that  a  person  unjustly  accused  of  publishing  n 
libel  might  always  demur  to  the  indictments 
this  is  an  instance  to  the  contrary ;  on  the 
face  of  such  a  record,  by  which  the  demurrer 
can  alone  be  determined,  it  contains  a  com- 
plete criminal  chai^ps.  The  defendant  there- 
fore would  plead  Mot  guilty,  and  go  down  to 
trial,  when  the  prosecutor  of  course  coukl.' 
only  produce  the  Bible  to  support  the  charge 
by  which  it  would  appear  to  oe  only  a  versa 
in  the  Proverbs  of  Solomon,  via.  *  The  fool 
*  has  said  in  his  heart.  There  is  no  God,'  and 
that  the  context  had  been  omitted  lo  con9li-> 
mte  the  libel.  The  jury,  shocked  at  the  impo- 
sitiodi  would  only  wait  the  judge^s  dirtction. 


VSS] 


fit  a  Seditunu  UhtL 


A.  D.  1788* 


[966 


to  aofUit^  \\\X  cdasistenlly  with  the  princi- 
ples which  have  governed  in  the  dean  of  8t. 
Ataph's  trial,  how  could  he  he  acouitted  ?— 
The  judge  must  say,  You  have  notning  to  do 
but  with  the  fact,  that  the  defendant  publish- 
ed the  words  laid  in  the  imfamMttion. 

But,  says  the  adversary,  the  distinction  Is 
obvious;  reading  the  sacred  context  to  the 
jwy  would  enabte  them  to  negative  the  innu- 
endos  which  are  within  their  provroce  t6  Re- 
ject, aad  which  being  rejected,  would  destroy 
the  charge.  The  answer  is  obvious :  such  an 
uukdmeni  woqld  contain  no  innuendo  on 
'which  a  nemtive  could  be  put:  ^r  if  the  re- 
oofdcfaarj^  that  thedefenoant  blttphenioiis- 
ly  published  that  there  was  no  God,  it  would 
teraire  no  innuendo  to  explain  it. 

Driven  from  that  argument,  the  adversary 
must  sav,  that  the  jury  by  the  context  would 
be  enabled  to  neptive  the  epithets  contained 
in  the  intrbduction,  and  could  never  pi)o- 
Aounce  it  to  be  btaspiiemous. — ^But  the  an- 
swer to  that  is  equally  eonchiuve ;  for  it  was 
Mid  in  the  case  of  the  King  i^nst  Woodfall, 
that  these  epithets  were  mere  formal  infer- 
ences of  law,  from  the  fact  of  publishing  that 
which  on  the  record  was  a  libel. 

When  the  defendant  was  convicted,  it  could 
not  appear  to  the  court,  that  the  defendant 
only  published  the  Bible.--The  court  could 
not  look  off  the  record,  which  says;  that  the 
defendant  blasphemously  published  that  there 
was  no  God.  The  judge,  maintaining  these 
doctrines,  would  not,  however,  forget  the  re- 
spect due  to  the  religum  of  his  countir, 
ihovaAk  the  law  of  it  had  escaped  him.  He 
would  tell  the  jury,  that  it  should  be  remem- 
bered in  mitigation  of  punishment ;  and  the 
honest  bookseller  of  IHitemoster  Row.  when 
he  came  up  in  custody  to  receive  juojgment, 
would  be  let  off  for  a  small  fine,  upon  the 
judge's  report,  that  he  had  only  published  a 
new  copy  of  the  Bible ;  but  not  till  he  had 
been  a  month  in  Uie  Kin^Vbench  prison, 
while  this  knotty  point  of  divinity  was  in  dis- 
cussion. This  case  has  stood  invulnerable  for 
above  100  years,  and  it  remains  still  for  Mr. 
Bearcfofl  to  answer. 

I  wid,  in  opening  this  proposition,  that 
even  if  it  were  true  that  the  record  did  con- 
tain the  whole  chai]ge,  it  would  form  no  sub- 
stantial difference  in  law ;  and  I  said  so^  be- 
cause, if  the  position  be,  that  the  court  is  al- 
ways to  judffe  of  the  law,  when  it  can  be 
nukde  to  see  It  unon  the  record,  no  case  can 
occur,  in  which  tnere  could  be  a  general  ver- 
dict, since  the  hiw  mieht  be  always  separated 
fiiom  the  facts  by  finding  the  latter  spHscially, 
and  referrins  them  to  the  judgment  of  the 
court  By  this  mode  of  proceeding,  the  crime 
would  be  equally  patent  upon  the  record  as 
by  indictment ;  and  if  it  be  patent  there,  it 
matters  not  whether  it  appears  on  the  front 
or  the  back  of  the  parchment ;  on  the  first  by 
the  indictment,  or  on  She  last  by  the  postea. 

People  who  seek  to  maintain  this  doctrine, 
4o  not  surely  see  to  what  length  it  would  go ; 


for  if  it  can  be  maintained  that  wherever,  as 
in  the  case  of  a  libel,  the  crime  appears  upon 
the  record,  the  court  alone,  and  not  the  jury, 
ought  to  judge ;  it  must  rollow,  that  where 
a  writing  is  laid  as  an  overt  act  of  high 
treason  (which  it  may  be  when  coupled  with 
publication),  the  iury  might  be  tied  down  to 
find  the  fact,  and  the  judges  of  the  crown 
might  make  state  criminals  at  their  discre* 
lion,  by  finding  the  law. 

The  answer  in  these  mild  and  independent 
days  of  judicature  is  this,  (Mr.  Bearcrofl  in- 
deed gave  it  at  the  trial):  Why  may  not 
judges  be  trusted  with  our  liberties  and  livc^, 
who  detennine  upon  our  property  and  every 
tiling  that  is  dear  to  us  ? 

The  observation  was  plausible  for  the  mo^ 
ment,and  suited  to  his  situation,  but  he  is  too 
wise  a  man  to  subscribe  to  it.  Where  is  the 
analogy  between  ordinary  civil  trials  between 
man  and  roan,  where  ju<l»Bs  can  rarely  hava 
an  interest,  and  great  State  prosecutions, 
where  power  and  freedom  are  weighing 
against  each  other,  the  balance  being  sus- 
pended by  the  servants  of  the  executive  ma- 
gistrate ?  If  an^  man  can  be  so  lost  to  reason 
as  to  be  a  scepticon  such  a  subject,  I  can  fur- 
nish himwitn  a  cure  from  an  instance  di- 
rectly in  point:  let  him  turn  to  the  190tK 
page  of  the  celebrated  Foster,  to  the  melan- 
choly account  of  Peachum's  indictment  of 
treason,  for  a  manuscript  sermon  found  in 
his  closet,  never  published,  reflecting  on  king 
James  the  firsfs  government.*  The  case  was 
too  weak  to  trust  without  management,  eveti 
by  the  sovereign  to  the  judges  of  those  days-; 
it  was  necessary  first  to  sound  them ;  and^he 
srcat  (but  on  that  occasion  the  contemptible) 
lord  Bacon  was  fixed  on  for  the  instrument ; 
and  his  letter  to  the  king  remains  recorded  in 
history,  where,  af\er  telhnEhim  his  successful 
practice  on  the  puisne  judges,  he  says,  tiiat 
when  in  some  dark  manner  he  has  hinted 
this  success  to  lord  Coke,  he  will  not  choose 
to  remain  singular. 

When  it  is  remembered  with  what  compre- 
hensive talents  and  splendid  c|uaUfication8 
lord  Bacon  was  gified,  it  is  no  indecency  to 
sav^  that  all  judges  ought  to  dread  a  trust 
which  the  constitution  never  gave  them,  and 
which  human  nature  has  not  alw^s  enabled 
the  neatest  men  to  fulfil.t 

If  the  court  shall  grant  me  a  rule,  I  mean 
to  contend,  4thly,  that  a  seditk>us  libel  con- 
tains no  question  of  law ;  but  supposing  the 
court  should  deny  the  legality  of^  all  these 
propositions,  or,  admitting  their  legality,  re- 
sist the  conclusion  I  have  drawn  from  them, 
then  the  last  proposition,  in  which  I  am  sup^ 
ported  even  by  aU  those  authorities  on  whick 
the  learned  judge  relies  for  the  doctrines  con- 
tained in  this  charge,  is  this : 

Propontion  5.    That  in  all  cases  where  the 

«  See  Vol.  S,  p.' 869. 

t  See  die  Prooeediiigt  egaiiist  Lord  Iko  jb,  V41I. 
3,p.  a087, 


©67] 


2S  G  E0R6E  III.     Proceedings  againH  the  Dean  aj  SL  Ataph,     ^]96B 


mischievous  intention  (which  is  agreed  to  l^ 
the  essence  of  the  crime)  cannot  oe  collected 
by  simple  inference  from  the  fact  charged,  be- 
cause the  defendant  eoes  into  evidence  to 
rebut  such  inference,  tne  intention  becomes 
^en  a  pure  unmixed  question  of  fact,  for  the 
consideration  of  the  jury. 

I  said  the  authorities  of  the  King  i^ainst 
Woodfall  and  Almon  were  with  me«  hi  the 
case  of  Rex  a^ihst  'Woodfall,*  5th  Burrow, 
lord  Mansfield  expressed  himself  thus: 
'  Where  an  act  in  itself  indifferent,  becomes 

*  criminal,  when  done  with  a  particular  in- 

*  tent,  THERE,  the  intent  must  be  proved  and 
f  found.  But  where  the  act  is  itself  unlawful, 
^  as  in  the  case  of  a  libel,  the  proof  of  justifi- 
'  cation  or  excuse  lies  on  the  defendant ;  and 
'  in.  failure  thereof,  the  law  implies  a  criminal 
^  intent.* — Most  luminously  expressed  to  con^ 
vey  this  sentiment,  viz.  That  when  a  man 
publishes  a  hbel,  and  has  nothing  to  say  for 
nimself, — no  explanation  or  exculpation,--a 
criming  intention  need  not  be  proved :  it  is 
■an  inference  of  common  sense,  not  of  law. 
But  the  publication  of  a  libel  does  not  con- 
clusively show  criminal  intent,  but  is  only  an 
implication  of  law,  in  failure  of  the  defen- 
dant's proof.  Lord  Mansfield  immediately 
afterwards  in  the  same  case  explains  this  ^- 
iheti  <  There  may  be  cases  where  the  pubh- 

'*  cation  may  be  justified  or  excused  as  lawful 

^  OR   INNOCVNT ;     FOR   NO   ACT   WHICH    IS   NOT 

*  CRIMINAL,  though  the  paper  be  a  libel,  can 
'vamount  to  such  a  publication  of  which  a  de- 
'  fendant  oueht  to  be  found  guilty.'  But  no 
questioiv  of  that  kind  arose  at  the  trial  (i.  e. 
trial  of  Woodfall).  Why  ?— Lord  Mansfield 
immediately  says  why,  *  Becaute  the  defen- 

*  dant  called  no  witnesses;*  expressly  saying, 
that  the  publication  of  a  libel  is  not  m  itself^ 
crime,  unless  the  intent  be  criminal;  and 
that  it  is  not  merely  in  mitigation  of  punish- 
m^t»  but  that  such  a  Dubfication  does  not 
warrant  a  verdict  of  gimtjr,  if  the  seditious 
intention  be  rebutted  by  evidence. 

In  the  case  of  the  King  against  A]moD,t  a 
magazine  containing  one  of  Junius's  Letters, 
was  sold  at  Almon's  shop ;  there  was  proof 
of  that  sale  at  the  trial.  Mr.  Almon  called 
no  .wiinesses,  and  was  found  guilty.  To 
ibund  a  motion  for  a  new  trial,  an  affidavit 
was  offered  from  Mr.  Almon,  that  he  was  not 
privy  to  Ihe  sale,  dot  knew  that  his  name 
was  inserted  as  a  publisher,  and  that  this 
practice  of  booksellers  being  inserted  as  pub- 
lishers by  their  correspondents  without  no- 
tice, was  common  in  the  trade. 

Lord  Mansfield  said,  <  Sale  of  a  book  in  a 
*'  bookseller's  shots  ^9  prima  facis  evidence  of 
4  p^iblication  by  the  master,  and  the  pubiica- 
'*■  tion  of  a  libel  is  ^rinus/acie  evidence  of  cri- 

*  minal  intent :  it  stands  good  till  answer- 
/  ed  by  the  defendant:  il  must  stand  till  con- 
'  tradicted  or  explained;  and  if  not  contra- 

*  dieted^  explained,  or  exculpatod^  becomes  tan- 


*  Vol  .leo,  p.  8^.        t  Vol.  so,  p.  W3. 


*tammtnt'to  eancbuive  when   the  drfendmmt 

*  calls  no  witnesses.' 

Mr.  Justice  Aston  said,  '  FrimA  facie  evi- 
'  dence  not  answered  is  sufficient  to  ground  a 
<  verdict  upon ;  if  the  defendant  had  a  suffi- 

*  cient  excuse,  he  might  have  proved  it  at  the 
'  trial :   his  having  neglected  it  where  there 

*  was  no  surprise,  is  no  eround  for  a  new  one.' 
Mr.  Justice  Willes  and  Mr.  Justice  Ashhurst 
agreed  upon  those  express  principles. 

These  cases  declare  the  law  beyond  all 
controversy  to  be,  that  publication,  even  of  a 
libel,  is  no  conclusive  proof  of  guilt,  but  only 
pxim&facit  evidence  of  it  till  answered ;  and 
that  if'^the  defendant  can  show  that  his  inten- 
tion was  not  criminal,  he  completely  rebuta 
the  inference  arising  from  the  DublicatioDy 
because,  though  it  remains  true  that  he  pub- 
lished, yet  it  is,  according  to  lord  Mansfield's 
express  words,  not  sucn  a  publication  of 
which  a  defendant  ought  to  be  found  guiUjf. 
Apply  Mr.  Justice  Buller's  dimming  up  to 
this  law,  sumI  it  does  not  require  even  a 
legal  apprehension  to  distinguish  the  repug- 
nancy. 

The  advertisement  was  proved  to  convince 
the  jury  of  the  dean's  motive  for  publishing^; 
Mr.  Jones's  testimony  went  strongly  to  aid 
it;  and  the  evidence  to  character,  thourit 
not  sufficient  in  itself,  was  admissible  tone 
thrown  into  the  scale. — But  not  only  no  part 
of  this  was  left  to  the  jury,  but  the  whole  of  it 
was  expressly  removed  from  their  consideratum  ; 
although  in  the  cases  of  Woodfall  and  Almoo, 
it  was  as  expressly  laid  down  to  be  within 
their  cognizance;  and  a  complete  answer  to 
the  charge,  if  salisfactoiy  to  Uie  minds  of  the 
jurors. 

In  support  of  the  learned  judge's  dmrfgb, 
there  can  be  therefore  but  two  arguintntst — 
either  that  the  defendant's  evidence^  namely, 
the  advertisement  ;-^Mr.  Jones's  evidence 
in  confirmation  of  its  having  been  published 
bonA  fide ;  and  the  evidence  to  cbaracier  to 
strengthen  that  construction,  were  not  suffi- 
cient proof  that  the  dean  believed  the  publi- 
cation meritorious,  and  published  it  in  vindi- 
cation of  his  honest  intentions ; — or  dae,  tfaaL 
even  admitting  it  to  establish  that  lad,  it  did 
not  amount  to  siich  an  exculpation  as  to  be 
evidence  on  not  guilty,  so  as  to  warrant  a  ver- 
dict.— ^I  give  the  learned  judge  his  choice  iif 
the  dtcmative. 

As  to  the  first,  viz.  Whether  it  showed  km- 
nett intention'\Xkpo\ntoi fact ;  thaisucdywas 
a  question  for  the  jury. — If  the  learned  judge 
had  thouzht  it  was  not  sufficient  evidence  to 
warrant  Uie  jury's  behevins  that  the  dean*8 
motives  were  such  as  he  had  Seckred  them,  he 
should  have  given  his  opinion  of  it  as  a  point 
of  evidence,  and  left  it  there. — I  cannot  con- 
descend to  go  fiirther;  it  would  be  ridiculoua 
to  argue  a  self-evident  proposition. 

As  to  the  second.  That  even  if  thi  jury  hn^ 
believed  firom  the  evidence,  that  the  dean% 
intention  was  wholly  innocent,  it  did  not 
amount  io  an  excuse,  and  Iheiefom  fibould 


ms] 


Ji)r  a  SeditiuHS  LibeL 


Aol  have  been  lefl  to  them. — ^Does  the  learn- 
^  judge  mean  to  say»  that  if  the  jury  had  de- 
dared,  '  We  find  that  the  dean  published  this 

*  pamphlet,  whether  a  libel  or  not  we  do  not 
'  find ;  and  we  find  farther,  that  believing  it 
^  in  his  conscience  to  be  meritorious  and  m- 
*•  nocent,  he  hon&  fidt  published  it  with  the 

*  prefixed  advertisement,  as  a  vindication  of 

*  ius  character  from  the  seditious  intentions, 

*  and  not  to  exdt^  sedition :'  does  the  judge 
mean  to  say,  that  on  such  a  special  verdict  be 
could  have  pronounced  a  criminal  judgment  ? 
-—If.  on  making  the  report,  he  says  yes^  I 
shall  have  leave  to  argue  it. 

If  he  says  no,  then  why  was  the  considera- 
tion of  that  evidence,  by  which  those  facts 
might  have  been  found,  withdrawn  firom  the 
jur^,  even  after  they  had  brought  in  a  verdict, 
Guilty  of  publishing  ovly^  which^in  the 
case  of  the  King  agamst  Woodfall,  was  only 
said  not  to  nezative  the  criminal  intention, 
because  that  defendant  had  called  no  wit- 
nesses ?  Whv  did  he  confine  his  enquiries  to 
the  innuenaos  ?  and  finding  the  jury  agreed 
upon  them,  why  did  he  dechu^  them  to  be 
bound  to  affix  the  epithet  of  Guilty,  without 
asking  them  if  they  believed  the  defendant's 
evidence  to  rebut  the  criminal  inference? 
Some  of  the  jurv  meant  to  negative  the  cri- 
minal inference,  by  adding  the  word  only,  and 
all  would  have  done  it,  h  they  had  thought 
themselves  at  liberty  to  enter  upon  the  evi- 
dence of  the  advertisement. — But  *  they  were 
told  espreuly  that  they  had  nothing  to  do  with 
the  consideration  of  that  evidence,  which,  if'  be^ 
lievedf  would  have  warranted  that  verdict. 
The  conclusion  is  evident; — if  they  had  a 
ri^ht  to  consider  it,  and  their  consideration 
might  have  produced  such  a  verdict,  and  if 
«ocn  a  verdict  would  have  been  an  acquittal^it 
must  be  a  misdirection. 

It  seems  to  me  therefore,  that,  to  support 
ihe  learned  judge's  directions,  the  very  cases 
rehed  on  in  support  of  them  must  be  aban- 
doned ;  since^  even  upon  their  authority,  the 
criminal  intention,  Ihough  a  legal  inference 
irom  the  fact  of  publishing,  in  the  absence  of 
proof  fioom  the  defendant,  becomes  a  question 
of  fact,  when  he  offers  proof  in  exculpation  to 
^^  jury;— the  foundation  of  my  motion 
therefore  is  clear. 

I  first  denv  the  authority  of  these  modem 
cases,  and  rely  upon  the  rights  of  juries,  as 
established  by  the  ancient  &w  and  custom  of 
England,  and  hold  that  the  judge's  charge 
confines  that  ri^ht,  and  its  exercise,  though 
xM>t  the  i>oaer  in  the  jury  to  find  a  general 
verdict  of  acquittal. 

I  assert  farther,  that,  whatever  were  the 
judge's  intentions,  the  jury  could  not  but  col- 
lect that  restriction  from  his  charge; — ^that  all 
free  agency  was  therefore  destroyed  in  them, 
from  respect  to  authority,  in  opposition  to 
reason  ^and  that  therefore  the  defendant 
iias  had  no  trial  which  this  Court  can  possibly 
sanction  by  sypporting  the  verdict.  But  u 
$hc  Court  ^ui«  be  resolved  to  support  its 


A.  D.  178S,  [970 

own  late  determinations,  I  must  content  my^ 
self  even  with  their  protection ;  they  are  cer^ 
tainly  not  the  shield  with  which,  in  a  contest 
for  freedom,  I  should  wish  to  combat,  but 
they  are  sufficient  for  my  protection :  it  is  im*- 
possible  to  reconcile  the  learned  judo's  di- 
rections with  any  of  them. 

My  lord,  I  shall  detain  the  Court  no  loqger 
-at  prescnt.^The  people  of  England  are  deeply 
interested  in  this  great  question ;  and  though 
they  are  not  insensible  to  that  interest,  yet 
they  do  not  feel  it  in  its  real  extent.  The 
dangerous  consequences  of  the  doctrines  esta» 
blished  on  the  subject  of  libel  are  obscured 
fix»m  the  eyes  of  many,  from  their  not  feeling 
the  immediate  efiects  of  them  in  daily  op« 
pression  and  injustice :— but  that  security  is 
temporary  and  fallacious;  it  depends  upon 
the  convenience  of  government  tor  the  time 
beine,  which  may  not  be  interested  in  the 
sacrince  of  indivicmats,  and  in  the  temper  of 
the  magistrate  who  administers  the  cnminal 
law,  as  the  head  of  this  Court  I  am  one  of 
those  who  could  almost  lull  myself  by  these 
Tefiections  from  the  apprehension  of  «iiiffie- 
</iW€  mischief,  even  from  the  law  of  libel  laid 
down  by  your  lordship, .  if  you  were  always  to 
continue  to  administer  it  yourself. — I  should 
feel  a  protection  in  the  gentleness  of  youc 
character;  in  the  love  of^ justice  which  its 
own  intrinsic  excellence  forces  upon  a  mind 
enlightened  by  science,  and  enlarged  by  liberal 
education,  and  in  that  dignity  of  disposition^ 
which  ^rows  with  the  growth  of  an  illustrious 
reputation,  and  becomes  a  sort  of  pl^ge  to 
the  public  for  security ;  but  such  a  secunty  is 
as  a  shadow  which  passeth  away  ;^— you  ca&p 
not,  my  lord,  be  immortal,  and  how  can  you 
answer  for  your  successor?  if  you  maintain 
the  doctrines  which  I  seek  to  overturn,  yon 
render  yourself  responsible  for  all  the  abuses 
that  may  follow  from  them  to  our  latest  pos* 
terity. 

My.lord,  whatever  may  become  of  the  li- 
berties of  England,  it  shall  never  be  said  that 
they  perished  without  resistance,  when  under 
my  protection. 


On  this  motion  the  Court  granted  a  rule  to 
sbew  cause  why  there  should  not.be  a  ne\^ 
trial — ^and  cause  was  accordingly  shown  by 
the  counsel  for  the  crown  on  the  45th  of  No- 
vember following ;  their  arguments  were 
taken  in  short-hand  by  Mr.  Blanchard,  bui 
were  never  published; — ^they  relied,  how- 
ever, altogether  upon  the  authorities  cited 
by  Mr.  Justice  Buller,  in  his  Chargei  to  the 
Jury,  and  upon  the  uniform  practice  of  the 
court  of  KingVbenchy  for  more  than  fifly 
years. 

The  following  Speech,  in  support  of  the  new 
Trial,  which  was  taken  at  the  same  time  by  JMr^ 


971]  S8  GEORGE  III.     Proceedings  agaimtihe  Dean  of  Si.  Asaph,     [978 

tttanohardy  was  soob  after  published  b^r  Mr. 


'Erskine's  authority,  in  order  to  attract  the 
attention  of  the  public  to  the  Libel  Bill,  which 
Mr.  Fox  was  then  preparing  for  the  conai^ 
vibration  of  parliament 

The  Hoir.  Thonia$  Enkine  :* 

I  am  now  to  have  the  honour  to  ad* 
dress  myself  to  your  lordship  in  support  of 
the  rule  granted  to  mc  by  tne  Court  upon 
Monday  last;  which,  as  Mr.  Bearcrofl  nas 
truly  said,  and  seamed  to  mark  the  observa* 
tion  with  peculiar  emphasis,  is  a  rule  for  a 
Dew  trial.  Much  of  my  argument,  according 
to  his  notion,  points  another  way ;  whether 
its  direction  be  true,  01;  its  force  adequate  to 
the  object,  U  is  now  my  business  to  show. 

Jn  rising  to  speak  at  this  time,  I  feel  all 
the  adVantagle  conferred  by  the  reply  over 
tbose  whose  arguments  are  to  be  answered ; 
but  I.  feel  a  disadvantage  likewise  which  must 
suggest  itself  to  every  intelligent  mind,— In 
foUowix^  the  objections  of  so  many  learned 


♦«i" 


*  In  the  fidinbnrgfc'R«v]ew  (vol. ,  16,  p.  203)  o^ 
'  Lord  Br«kfne*8  Speeches,'  tbe  eloquent  and  powei^ 
fy|  wriler.  that  expresses  himself: 

*'  In  tbese  Tclumta,  we  IiAve  a  oomplele  bo^j  of 
the  law  ef  libel,  and  a  most  perfect  history  of  its 
progress,  down  to  the  Libel  Bill  of  Mr.  Fox,  which 
owed  its  origin,  indeed,  to  the  doobls  and  diflioul- 
ties  that  arose  during  the  prosecution  (is  there 
liot  an  error  in  the  first  syllable  ?)  of  the.  dean  of  St. 
Aaaph.  The  argnment  on  the  rights  of  jaries,  as 
'  eoaneetisd  with  that  ease,  affords  the  clearest  expo- 
•iUon  of  Um  sobjeot,  and  is,  in  itself,  by  &r  the  most 
learned  oonmienta^y  on  the  nature  of  that  inestima- 
ble mode  of  trial,  wfaieh  is  any  where  to  be  found. 
Mr.  Pox's  bill  is  merely  declaratory  of  tbe  princi- 
ples, wht<^  wore  laid  down  in  this  argument  with 
onrivalled  clearness,  and  enforced  with  a  power  of 
nasenlng  which  none  ever  denied  to  this  great  ad- 
vocate, except  in  the  moment  when,  dazzled  by  tbe 
astonishing  powers  of  his  language,  they  were  tempt- 
ed to  fancy  that  so  rare  a  union  of  different  qualiUes 
was  not  in  nature ;  and  to  doubt  whether  such  elo- 
qoence  and  fire — ^so  lively  aa  imagination,  aud  so 
great  warmth  of  passions,  were  compatible  with  the 
froolUes  of  close  reasoning  and  nice  discrimination. 
As  connected,  then,  with  the  history  of  jury  trial 
»— as  laying  down  its  principles— as  furnishing  the 
irronndvrork  of  Mr.  Pox's  famous  bill'^aad  as 
baving,  in  poi»t  of  fact,  given  occasion  to  that  bill, 
we  yiew  the  speeches  for  dean  Shipley,  which  con- 
tain a  most  complete  history  of  that  case,  as  the 
iBost  Important  part  of  this  collection.  We  need 
tctanoly  add,  tliat  the  trial  by.  jury  is  hero  only 
▼iewed  in  its  relation  to  the  law  of  libel ;  bnt,  tu 
administer  this  law,  is,  beyond  all  comparison,  the 
■Mist  important  office  of  jaries, — ^the  one  in  which 
the  exceil^noe  of  that  institution  is  most  conspicuous 
and  indispn table,  and,  independent  of  which,  Uie  ob- 
jections to  it  would  be  neither  few  nor  light." 

Of  this  speech  of  lord  Brskiue  1  haTO  been  informed 
that  the  great  Mr.  Fox,  who  introduoed  the  stat.  3S 
Geo.  3,  c.  60,  repeatedly  declared  that  be  thought  it 
the  finest  argument  in  the.Bnglish  lattgoage. 


persons,  oifered  under  different  arrangemenfea 
upon  a  sulyect  so  complicated  and  corapre* 
hensive,  there  is  much  danger  of  being  dmwo 
from  that  Inethod  and  order,  which  caa  alone 
fasten  conviction  upon  unwilling  minds,  or 
drive  them  frbm  the  shelter  which  insenuity 
never  fails  to  find  in  the  labyrinth  of  a  de- 
sultory discourse. 

The  sense  of  that  danger,  and  my  own  in- 
ability to  struggle  against  it,  led  me  originally 
to  deliver  to  the  C^urt  certain  written  and 
maturely  considered  propositions,  from  tiie 
establishment  of  which  I  resolved  not  to  dc» 
part,  nor  to  be  removed,,  either  in  substaooe 
or  in  order,  in  any  stags  of  the  ffoceedings^ 
and  by  which  1  must  uierefbre  this  day  im» 
questionably  stand  or  fall. 

Pursuing  this  system^  I  &ni  vulnerable  two. 
ways,  and  in  two  ways  only.  Either  it  muA. 
be  shown  that  my  propositions  are  not  valid 
in  law ;  or,  admitting  their  validity,  that  the 
learned  judge's  chal'ge  to  the  jury  at  Shrews* 
bury  was  not  repugnant  to  them:  there  can 
be  no  other  possible  objections  to  my  appli- 
cation for  a  new  trial.  My  duty  to-day  is 
therefore  obvious  and  simple ;  it  is.  fimt,  to 
re-maintain  those  propositions;  ana  then  to 
show^  that  the  charge  delivered  to  the  jury  at 
Shrewsbury  was  founded  upon  the  absolute 
denial  and  reprobation  of  them. 

Ibe^in,  therefore,  by  saying  again  in  my 
own  original  words,  that  when  a  bill  of  in- 
dictment is  foimd,  or  an  information  filed* 
charging  any  crime  or  misdemeanor  known 
to  the  law  of  England,  and  the  party  accused 
puts  himself  upon  the  ooimtry  by  pleading 
the  general  issue, — ^Not  Guilty; — toe  jury 
are  gekerallv  charged  with  his  deliveianct 
from  that  crime,  and  not  specially  from  the 
jfact  orfttciSf  in  the  commission  of  which  tbe 
indictment  or  information  charges  the  crime 
to  consist :  much  less  from  any  single  fact, 
to  the  exclusion  of  others  chained  upon  the 
same  record. 

Secondly,  that  no  act,  which  the  law  in  its 
general  theory  holds  to  be  criminal,  consti- 
tutes in  itself  a  crime,  abstracted  finom  the 
mischievous  intention  of  the  actor;  and  that 
the  intention,  even  where  it  beecAnes  a  sim- 
{>le  inference  of  legal  reason  from  a  lact  or 
facts  established,  may  and  ought  to  be  col- 
lected by  the  jury,  with  the  judge's  assistance ; 
because  the  act  chai^ged,  though  established 
as  a  fact  in  a  trial  on  the  general  isfutf,  does 
not  necessarily  and  unavoidably  establish  the 
criminal  intention  by  any  abstract  conclu- 
sion of  law :  the  establishment  of  the  fiu:t 
being  still  no  more  than  full  evidence  of  the 
crime,  but  not  the  crime  itself;  unless  the 
jury  render  it  so  themselves,  by  referring  it 
voiimtarily  to  tbe  court  by  special  verdict. 
•  These  two  propositions,  though  worded 
with  cautious  preasion,  and  in  technical  lan- 
guage, to  prevent  the  subtlety  of  legal  dis* 
putation  in  opposition  to  the  plain  undei^ 
Standing  of  the  world,  nether  do  no*  were 
intended  to  convey  any  other  sentiment  than 


973J 


Jiiir  a,  Sediiiotia  Libel. 


Uus:  viz.  that  in  all  cases  where  the  law 
either  directs  or  permits  a  person  accused  of 
a  criioe  to  throw  himself  upon  a  jury  for  de- 
liverance, by  pleading  generally  that  he  is 
not  guilty  ;  the  jury,  thus  legally  applied  to, 
may  deliver  him  from  the  accusation  oy  a  ge« 
noral  verdict  of  acquittal  founded  (as  in  com- 
mon sense  it  evidently  must  be)  upon  an  in- 
vestigation as  general  and  comprehensive 
a«  the  charge  itself  from  which  it  is  a  general 
deliverance. 

Having  said  this,  I  freely  confess  to  the 
court,  that  I  am  much  at  a  loss  for  any  far- 
ther illustration  of  my  subject;  because  I 
cannot  find  any  matter  by  whiqh  it  might  be 
farther  ilhistraied,  so  clear,  or  so  indisputable, 
either  in  fact  or  in  law,  as  the  very  proposi- 
tion itself  which  ujKm  this  trial  has  been 
brought  into  question.-^Looking  back  upon 
the  ancient  constitution^  and  examining  with 
painfiil  research  the  onginal  iurisdictions  of 
the  countiy,  I  am  utterly  at  a  loss  to  imagine 
from  what  sources  these  novel  limitations  of 
the  rights  of  juries  are  derived.  Even  the  bar 
is  not  yet  trained  to  the  discipline  of  main- 
taining them. — My  learned  (liend  Mr.  Bear- 
crofl  solemnly  abjures  them : — he  repeats  to- 
day what  be  avowed  at  the  trial,  ana  is  even 
iealous  of  the  imputation  of  having  meant 
less  than  he  expressed;  for  when  speaking 
this  morning  of  tne  right  of  the  iury  to  judge 
of  the  whofe  charge,  your  lordsnip  oorrected 
his  expression,  by  telling  him  he  meant  the 
potper,  and  not  the  right ;  he  caught  instantly 
at  TDur  words,  disavowed  ^our  explanation; 
and,  with  a  consistency  which  does  him  ho- 
nour^ declared  his  adlierence  to  his  original 
admission  in  its  full  and  obvious  extent. — '  I 

*  did  ncpt  mean,'  said  he,  *  merely  to  acknow- 
'  led^e  that  the  jury  have  the  vower ;    for 

*  their  power  nobodv  ever  doubtea ;  and,  if  a 

<  judge  was  to  tell  them  they  had  it  not,  they 
^  would  only  have  to  laush  at  him,  and  con- 

<  vince  him  of  hb  errpr,  by  finding  a  general 

<  verdict  which  must  be  recorded  :  I  meant, 
'  therefore,  to  consider  it  as  a  rights  as  an  im- 
'  portant  privilege,  apd  of  great  vaiue  to  the 
^  constitution.' 

Thus  Mr.  BeapcvoA  and  I  are  perfectly 
agreed :  I  never  contended  for  more  than  he 
luis  voimituil^  conceded. — ^I  have  now  his 
express  authority  fur  repeating,  in  my  own 
former  words,  that  the  jury  have  not  merely 
the  power  to  acquit,  upon  a  view  of  the  whole 
charge,  without  controul  or  punishment,  and 
without  the  possibility  of  their  acquittal  being 
anouiled  by  any  other  authority;  but  that 
they  have  a  catutkutionalf  legal  right  to  do  it;  a 
rifktfit  to  he  exerciud ;  and  intended  by  the 
wise  founders  of  the  government,  to  be  a  pro- 
tection to  the  lives  and  liberties  of  English- 
men, against  the  encroachments  and  perver- 
•wns  oF  authority  in  the  hands  of  fixed  ma- 
gistrates. 

But  -this  candid  admission  on  the  part  of 
Mr.  Bearcroft,  tiiough  very  honorable  to 
Iraiylf,  is  of  no  importance  to.  me;   since, 


A.  D.  178S.  [974 

from  what  has  already  fallen  firom  your  lord- 
ship, I  am  not  to  expect  a  ratification  of  if 
from  the  court;  it  is  therefore  my  duty  to  es- 
tablish it. — ^I  feel  all  the  importance  of  my 
subject,  and  nothing  shall  lead  me  to-day  to 
go  out  of  it — ^I  claim  al|  the  attention  of  the 
court,  and  the  right  to  state  every  authority 
which  applies  in  my  judgment  to  the  argu* 
ment,  without  being  supposed  to  introduce 
them  for  other  purposes  than  my  duty  to 
my  client,  and  the  constitution  of  my  coun- 
try, warrants  and  approves. 

It  is  not  very  usual,  in  an  English  court  of 
justice,  to  be  driven  hack  to  the  earliest  his* 
tory  and  original  elements  of  theconstitutioii; 
in  order  to  establish  the  first  principles  which 
mark  and  distinguish  Enghsh  law : — they  are 
always  assumed,  and,  like  axioms  in  science, 
are  made  the  foundations  of  reasonidg  with- 
out being  proved. — Of  this  sort  our  ancestors, 
for  many  centuries,  must  have  conceived  the 
right  of  an  English  jury  to  decide  upon  every 
question  which  the  forms  of  the  law  submit- 
ted to  their  final  decision;  since,  though  they 
have  immemorially  exercised  that  supreme 
jurisdiction,  we  find  no  trace  in  any  of  the  an- 
cient books  of  its  ever  being  brought  into 
question. — It  is  but  as  yesterday,  when  com- 
pared with  the  age  of  the  law  itself,  that 
judges,  unwarrant^  by  any  former  judgments 
of  their  predecessors,  without  any  new  com- 
mission iirom  the  crown,  or  enlargemeiit  of 
judicial  authority  from  the  legislature,  have 
sought  to  fasten  a  limitation  upon  the  rights 
and -privileges  of  jurors,  totally  unknown  in 
ancient  times,  and  palpably  destructive  of  the 
very  end  and  object  ot  their  institution. 

No  fact, .  my  lord,  is  of  more  easy  demon- 
stration ;  for  the  history  and  laws  of  a  free 
country  lie  open  even  to  vulgar  Inspection. 

During  the  whole  Saxon  ftra,  ami  even  long 
after  the  establishment  of  the  Norman  go* 
vemment,  the  whole  administration  of  justice, 
criminal*  and  civil,  was  in  the  hands  of  th^ 
people,  without  the  controul  or  intervention 
of  any  judicial  authority,  delegated  to  fixed 
magistrates  by  the  crown. — ^Tne  tenants  of 
every  manor  administered  civil  justice  to  one 
another  in  the  court-baron  of  their  lord;  and 
their  crimes  were  judged  of  in  the  leet,  every 
suitor  of  the  manor  giving  his  voice  as  a 
juror,  and  the  steward  being  only  the  regis- 
trar,— and  not  the  judge.  On  appeals  from 
these  domestic  jurisdictions  to  tne  county- 
court,  and  to  the  torn  of  the  sherifi^,  or  in  suits 
and  prosecutions  originally  commenced  in 
either  of  them,  the  sherifTs  authority  extend- 
ed no  further  than  to  summon  the  jurors,  to 
compel  their  attendance,  ministerially  to  re- 
gulate their  proceedings,  and  to  enforce  their 
decisions ;  and  even  where  he  was  specially 
empowered  by  the  king's  writ  of  juUices  to 
proceed  in  causes  of  superior  value,  no  judicial 
authority  was  thereby  conferred  upon  him- 
self, but  only  a  more  enlarged  jurisaiction  qh 
THE  JURORS,  who'  were  to  try  tlje  cause  men- 
tioned in  the  writ. 


>75] 


23  GEOEGE  III.     P/oceedings  against  the  Dean  (fSt.  Asaph,     [97ff 


It  is  true  that  the  sheriff  cannot  now  inter- 
meddle in  pleas  of  the  crown ;  but  with  this 
exception,  which  brings  no  restrictions  on  ju- 
ries, these  jurisdictions  remain  untouched  at 
this  day :— intricacies  of  property  have  intro- 
duced other  forms  of  proceeaing,  but  the  con* 
»titutionis  the  same. 

This  popular  judicature  was  not  confined  to 
particular  districts,  or  to  inferior  suits  and 
misdemeanors,  but  pervaded  the  whole  le^ 
constitution :  for,  when  the  Conqueror,  to  in- 
crease the  influence  of  his  crown,  erected  that 
^reat  superintending  court  of  justice  in  his 
own  palace,  to  receive  appeals  criminal  and 
civil  from  every  court  in  the  kingdom,  and 
placed  at  the  head  of  it  the  capitalU  justiciar 
rius  tothu  Anglia,  of  whose  original  authority 
the  chief  justice  of  this  court  is  but  a  partial 
and  feeble  emanation :  even  that  great  mar- 
gistrate  was  in  the  aula  re^  merely  ministe- 
rial ;  every  one  of  the  king*8  tenants,  who 
owed  him  service  in  right  of  a  barony,  had  a 
seat  and  a  voice  in  wi  high  tribunal ;  and 
the  office  of  justiciar  was  but  to  record  and  to 
enforce  theirjudgments. 

In  the  reign  of  king  Edward  the  first, 
when  this  great  office  was  abolished,  and  the 
present  courts  at  Westminster  establbhed  by 
^  distribution  of  its  powers ;  the  barons  pre- 
served that  supreme  superintending  jurisdic- 
tion which  never  belonged  to  the  justiciar, 
but  to  themselves  only  as  the  jurors  in  the 
king's  courts:  a  jurisdiction  which,  when 
nobuity,  firom  being  territorial  and  fe<xlal,  be- 
came personal  and  honorary,  was  assumed  and 
exercised  by  the  peers  of  England,  who,  with- 
out any  delegation  of  judicial  authority  from 
the  crown,  form  to  this  day  the  supreme  and 
final  court  of  English  law,  judging  m  the  last 
resort  for  the  whole  kingdom,  and  sitting 
upon  the  lives  of  the  peerage,  in  their  ancient 
and  senuine  characters,  as  the  pares  of  one 
another. 

When  the  courts  at  Westminster  were  es- 
tablished in  their  present  forms,  and  when 
the  civilization  ana  commerce  of  the  nation 
•had  introduced  more  intricate  questions  of 
justice,  the  judicial  authority  in  civil  cases 
could  not  but  enlarge  its  bounds ;  the  rules  of 
property  in  a  cultivated  state  of  society  be- 
came by  degrees  beyond  the  compass  of  the 
unlettered  multitude ;  and  with  certain  well- 
known  restrictions  undoubtedly  fell  to  the 
judges :  yet  more  perhaps  from  necessity  than 
by  consent  as  all  judicial  proceedings  were 
artfully  held  in  the  Norman  language,  to 
which  the  people  were  strangers. 

Of  these  chantres  in  judicature,  immemo- 
rial custom,  and  the  arquiescence  of  the  legis- 
lature, are  the  evidence ;  which  establish  the 
jurisdiction  of  the  courts  on  life  true  principle 
of  English  law,  and  measure  the  extent  ot  it 
by  their  ancient  practice. 

But  no  such  evidence  is  to  be  found  of  the 
least  relinquishment  or  abridgment  of  popu- 
lar judicature  iti  cases  of  crimes ;  on  the  con- 
trary, every  page  of  oiir  history  is  filled  with 


the  stn^gles  of  our  ancestors  for  its  preserva-* 
tion.  'Die  law  of  property  changes  with  new 
objects,  and  becomes  intricate  as  it  extendi 
its  dominion ;—  but  crimes  must  ever  be  of  the 
same  easy  investigation :— :they  consist  wholly 
in  irdewtion,  and  me  more  they  are  multiplied 
by  the  policy  of  those  who  govern,  the  more 
absolutely  the  public  fireedom  depends  upcmr 
the  people's  preserving  the  entire  administra- 
tion of  criminal  justice  to  themselves.— In  a 
question  of  property  between  two  private  indi- 
viduals, the  crown  can  have  no  possible  interest 
in  preferring  tiie  one  to  the  other :  but  it  may 
have  an  interest  in  crushing  both  of  tKem  to- 
gether, in  defiance  of  every  principle  of  hu- 
manity and  justice,  if  they  should  put  them- 
selves forward  in  a  contention  for  public  li* 
berty,  against  a  government  seekin«:  to  eman- 
cipate iteelf  from  the  dominion  of  the  laws.— 
No  man  in  the^  least  acquainted  with  the  his- 
tory of  nations,  or  of  his  own  country,  can  re- 
fuse to  acknowledge,  that  if  the  administra* 
tion  of  criminal  justice  were  left  in  the  handa* 
of  the  crown,  or  its  deputies,  no  greater  free- 
dom could  possibly  exist,  than  government 
might  choose  to  tolerate  from  the  conve* 
nience  or  policy  of  the  day.    - 

My  lord,  this  important  truth  is  no  disco- 
very or  assertion  oi  mine,  but  is  to  be  found 
in  every  book  of  the  law.    Whether  we  go 
up  to  the  most  ancient  authorities,  or  appeal 
to  the  writings  of  men  of  our  own  times,  we 
meet  with  it  alike  in  the  most  emphatical 
language. — ^Mr.  Justice  Blacki^ione,   by    no 
means  biassed  towards  democratical  jgo^em- 
ment,  having  in  the  third  volume  of  his  Com- 
mentaries explained  the  excellence  of  the  trial 
by  jury  in  civil  cases,  expresses  himself  thus: 
vol.  iv.  p.  849 :  *  But  it  holds  much  stronger 
'  in  criminal  cases ;  since  in  times  of  duB- 
'  culty  and  danger,  more  is  to  be  apprehended 
'  firom  the  violence  and  partiality  of  judges 
*■  appointed  by  the  crown,  m  suits  between  the 
'  king  and  the  subject,  than  in  disputes  be- 
'  tween  one  indiyicfiial  and  another,  to  settle 
'  the  boundaries  of  private  property.    Our  law 
'  has,  therefore^  wisely  placed  this  strong  and 
'  two-fold  barrier  of  a  presentment  and  trial 
'  by  jury,  between  the  liberties  of  the  people 
'  and  the  prerogative  of  the  crown :  without 
'  this  bamer,  justices  ef  oyer  and  terminer     p 
*'  named  by  the  crown,  might,  as  in  France  or 
'  in  Turkey,  imprison,  dispatch,  or  exile,  any 
'  man  that  was  obnoxious  to  government  by 
'  an  instant  declaration  that  suCh  was  their 
'  will  and  pleasure  :   so  that  the  liberties  of 
'  England  cannot  but  subsist  so  long  as  this 
'  pal&dium  remains  sacred  and  inviouite,  not 
'  only  firoin  all  open  attacks,  which  none  will 
'  be  so  hardy  as  to  make,  but  also  firom  all  s&> 
'  cret  machinations,  which  may  sap  and  *uik 
'  dermine  it.' 

But  this  remark,  though  it  derives  new 
force  in  being  adopted  by  so  great  an  autlKK 
rity,  wasjio  more  origmal  in  Mr.  Justice 
Blackstoni  than  in  me :   the  institution  and   - 
authority  of  juries  is  to  be  fiaund  in  Bracio^ 


977] 


fw  a  Sedtlious  LtbA 


A.IX  1783. 


[978 


yrho  wrote  above  500  years  before  bim.  ^  The 
^  curia  and  the  pares,*  says  he, '  were  necessa- 
^  ril^  the  judges  in  all  cases  of  life,  limb, 

*  crime,  and  disherison  of  the  heir  in  capite. 
'  The  king  could  not  decide,  for  then  he 
'would  have  been  |)roseciitor  and  judge; 
'  neither  could  his  justices,  for  they  represent 

*  him.'* 

Notwithstanding  all  this,  the  learned  judge 
was  pleased  to  sav,  at  the  trial,  that  there 
was  no  difference  between  civil  and  criminal 
cases. — I  say,  on  the  contrary,  independent 
of  these  authorities,  that  there  is  not,  even  to 
vulgar  obscrvaUon,  the  remotest  similitude 
between  them. 

There  are  four  capital  distinctions  between 
prosecutions  for  cnmes,  and  civil  actions^ 
every  one  of  which  deserves  consideration. 

First,  In  the  jurisdiction  necessary  to  found 
the  charge.  - 

Secondly,  In  the  manner  of  the  defendant's 
pleading  to  it. 

Thircuy,  In  the  authority  of  the  verdict 
which  discharges  him. 

Fourthly,  In  the  independence  and  secu- 
rity of  the  jury  from  all  consequences  in  giv- 
ing it. 

As  to  the  first,  it  is  unnecessary  to  remind 
your  lordships,  that,  in  a  civil  case,  the  part^ 
who  conceives  himself  aggrieved,  states,  his 
complaint  to  the  court, — avails  himself  at  his 
own  pleasure  of  its  process, — compels^  an  an- 
swer from  the  defepdant  by  its  authority,— -or 
taking  the  charge  pro  confesso  against  him  on 
his  default,  is  entitled  to  final  judgment  and 
execution  for  his  debt,  without  any  interposi- 
tion of  a  jury.  But  in  criminal  cases  it  is 
otherwise:  tne  court  has  no  cognizance  of 
them,  witnout  leave  from  the  people  forming 
a  grand  inquest.  If  a  man  were  to  commit  a 
capital  offence  in  the  face  of  all  the  judges  of 
England,  their  united  authority  could  not  put 
hina  upon  his  trial :— they  could  file  no  com- 
plaint against  him,  even  upon  the  records  of 
the  supreme  criminal  court,  but  could  only 
commit  him  fpr  safe  custody,  which  is  equally 
competent  to  every  common  justice  of  the 
veace : — the  grand  jury  alone  could  arraign 
fiim.  and  in  tneir  discretion  might  likewise 
Anally  discharge  him,  by  throwing  out  the 
bill^  with  the  names  of  all  your  lordships 
as  witnesses  on  the  back  of  it.  If  it  shall 
be  said,  that  this  exclusive  power  of  the 
grand  jury  docs  not  extend  to  lesser  misde- 
meanors^ which  may  be  prosecuted  by  infor- 
niation ;  I  answer,  that  for  that  very  reason 
it  becomes  doubly  necessary  to  preserve  the 
power  of  the  other  jury  which  is  left.  In  the 
rules  of  pleading,  mere  is  no  distinction  be- 
tween capital  and  lesser  offences ;  and  the  de- 
fendant's plea* of  Not  guilty  (which  univer- 
sally prevails  as  the  legal  answer  to  every  in- 
formation or  indictment,  as  oppOse<l  to  special 
pleas  to  the  court  in  civil  actions),  and  the 

*  Vide  likewise  Mr.  Kee?6S'  very  iogwioai  Hii* 
tor  J  of  the  Bnglifh  JUw* 

VOL.  XXI, 


necessity  impo^  upon  the  crown  to  join  the 
general  issue^  are  absolutely  decisive  of  the 
present  question. 

Every  lawyer  must  admit,  that  the  rules  of 
pleading  were  originally  established  to  mark 
and  to  preserve  the  distinct  jurisdictions  of 
the  court  and  the  jury,  by  a  separation  of  tlie 
law  fi-om  th^  fact,  wherever  they  were  in- 
tend^ to  be  separated.  A  person  charged 
with  owing  a  debt,  or  having  committed  a 
trespass,  &c.  &c.  if  he  could  not  deny  the' 
facts  on  which  the  actions  were  founded,  wa9 
obliged  to  submit  his  justification  for  mattet* 
of  law  by  a  special  plea  to  the  court  upon  the 
record;  to  which  plea  the  plaintiff  might 
demur,  and  submit  the  legal  merits  to  the 
judges. — By  this  arrangement,  no  power  was 
ever  given  to  the  iury,  oy  an  issue  joined  be- 
fore them,  but  when  a  right  of  decision,  a9 
comprehensive  as  the  issue,  went  along  with 
it: — if  a  defendant  -in  such  civil  actionjf 
pleaded  the  general  issue  instead  of  a  special 
plea,  aiming  at  a  general  deliverance  from 
the  cham,  oy  showing  his  justification  to  the 
jury  at  the  tnal;  the  court  protected  its  own 
jurisdiction,  by  refusing  all  evidence  of  the 
facts  on  which  such  justification  was  founded. 
-—The  extension  of  the  general  issue  beyond 
its  ancient  limits,  and  in  deviation  from  its 
true  principle,  has  introduced  some  confusion 
into  this  simple  and  harmonious  systeqi ;  but 
the  law  is  substantially  the  same. — No  man,, 
at  this  day,  in  any  of  those  actions  where  the 
ancient  forms  of*^  our  jurisprudence  are  still 
wisely  preserved,  can  possibly  get  at  the  opi- 
nion of^a  jury  upon  any  question,  not  intend- 
ed by  the  constitution  for  their  decision.  Ii^ 
actions  of  debt,  detinue,  breach  of  covenant, 
trespass,  or  replevin,  the  defendant  can  only 
submit  the  mere  fact  to  the  jury ;  the  lam 
must  be  pleaded  to  the  court:  if,  dreading 
the  opinion  of  the  judges,  he  conceals  his 
justification  under  the  cover  of  a  general  plesi 
in  hopes  of  a  more  favourable  construction  of 
his  defence  at  the  trial ;  its  very  existence  can 
never  even  come  within  ^e  knowledge  of  the 
jurors ;  every  legal  defence  must  arise  out  of 
facts,  and  the  authority  of  the  judge  is  inter- 

Eosed,  to  prevent  their  appearing  before  a  tri- 
unal  which,  in  such  cases,  has  no  compe- 
tent jurisdiction  over  them. 

By  imposing  tliis  necessity  of  pleading 
every  legal  justification  to  the  court,  and  by 
this  exclusion  of  all  evidence  on  the  trial  be- 
yond the  negation  of  the  fact ;  the  courts  in- 
disputably intended  to  establish,  and  did  in 
fact  effectually  secure  the  judicial  authority 
over  legal  questions  from  all  encroachment 
or  violation;  audit  is  impossible  to  find  a 
reason  in  law,  or  in  common  sense,  why  the 
same  boundaries  between  the  fact  ana  th<^ 
law  should  not  have  been  at  the  same  time 
extended  to  criiiunal  cases  by  the  same  rules 
of  pleading,  if  the  jurisdiction  of  the  jury  had 
been  designed  to  be  limited  to  the  fact,  as  in 
civil  actions. 
But  uo  such  boundary  was  ever  made  of 
d  R 


^]  28  GEOkGk  m.     Proceedings  againti  tie  Dean  ^f  St.  Asaph^     (98^ 

attempted ;  on  tljie  contrary,  every  person, 
cfiarged  with  any  crime  by  an  indictment  oi* 
information,  iia9  becQ  in  all  times,  from  the 
IJf  orman  conquest  to  this  hour,  not  only  per- 
mitted, but  even  bound  to  throw  hunself 
upon  his  countiy  for  deliverance^  by  the  ge- 
neral plea  of  Not  Guilty Vaad  may  submit 
his  whole  defence  to  the  jury,  whether  it  be  a 
negation  of  the  fact,  or  a  justification  of  it  in 
law ;  and  the  judge  has  no  au^ority,  as  in  a 
civil  case,  to  refuse  such  evidence  at  the  trial, 
as  out  of  the  issue,  and  as  coram  tumjudice ; — 
an  authority  which  in  common  sense  he  cer- 
tainly would  have,  if  the  jury  had  no  higher 
jurisdiction  in  the  one  case  than  in  the  o&er. 
—The  general  plea  thus  sanctioned  by  im- 
memorial custom,  so  blends  the  law  and  the 
fact  together,  as  to  be  inseparable  but  by  the 
voluntary  act  of  the  juiy  m  finding  a  special 
verdict:  the  general  mvestigation  of  the 
whole  charge  is. therefore  before  them;  apd 
although  the  defendant  admits  the  fact  laid 
in  the  information  or  indictment,  he  never- 
theless, under  his  general  plea,  gives  evidence 
of  others  which  are  collateral,  referring  them 
to  the  judgment  of  the  jury,  as  a  legal  excuse 
Or  justification,  and  receives  from  their  ver- 
dict a  complete^  general,  and  conclusive  deli- 
verance. 

Mr.  Justice  Blackstone,  in  the  fourth  vo- 
lume of  his  Commentaries,  page  339,  says, 
*The  traitorous  or  felonious  intent  zrt  the 
'  points  and  very  gist  of  the  indictment,  and 

*  must  be  answered  directiy  by  the  general 
'negative.  Not  Guilty;   and  the  jury  will 

*  take  notice  of  any  defensive  matter,  and 
'  give  their  verdict  accordingly,  as  effectually 

*  as  if  it  were  specially  pleaded.' 

This,  therefore,  says  sir  Matthew  Hale,  in 
his  Pleas  of  the  Crown,  page  S58,  is,  upon 
all  accounts,  the  most  advantageous  plea  for 
the  defendant :  '  It  would  be  a  most  unhappy 
•'  case  for  the  judge  himself,  if  the  prisoner*s 

*  fate  depended  upon   his  directions : — un- 

*  haptjy  also  for  the  prisoner ;  for  if  the  judge's 
'^  opmion  must  rule  the  verdict,  the trialby 
t  jury  would  be  useless.' 

My  lord,  the  conclusive  operation  of  the 
Verdict  when  given,  and  the  security  of  the 
jury  from  all  consequences  in  ^ving  it*  ren- 
der the  contrast  between  crinunal  ana  civil 
cases  striking  and  complete.  No  new  trial 
caji  be  granted,  as  in  a  civil  action: — your  lord- 
ships, however  you  may  disapprove  of  the  ac- 
guittal,  have  no  authority  to  award  one;  for 
there  is  no  precedent  of  any  such  upon  re- 
cord; and  tne  discretion  of  the  Court  is  cir- 
cumscribed by  the  law. 
.  Neither  can  the  iurors  be  attainted  by  the 
crown.  In  Bushell's  case,*  Vau^l^n's  Re- 
ports, page  146,  that  learned  and  excellent 
judge  .expresses  himself  thus:  <  There  is  no 
<  case  in  all  the  law  of  an  attaint  for  the  king, 


*  which  there  b  no  warrant  in  law,  though 

*  there  be  other  specious  authority  against 
'it,  touched  by  none  that  have  argued  this 

*  case.' 
liOrd  Man^ld,    To  be  sure  it  is  so. 
Mr.  Erskine.    Since  that  is  clear,  my  lord, 

I  shall  not  trouble  the  Court  farther  upon  it : 
indeed  I  have  not  been  able  to  find  any  one 
authority  for  such  an  attaint  but  a  dictum  in 
Fitzherbert's  Natura  JBrevium,  page  107 ;  and 
on  the  other  hand,  the  doctrme  of  Busiiell^ 
case  is  expretely  agreed  to  in  very  modem 
times:  vide. lord  Raymond's  R6po9rts,  1st  vo« 
lume,  page  469.  .    ^ 

If,  then,  your  lordships  refiect  but  for  a 
moment  upon  this  comparative  view  of  cri- 
minal and  civil  cases  which  I  have  laid  be* 
ibre  you ;  how  can  it  be  seriously  contended^ 
not  merely  that  there  is  no  difference,  but 
that  there  is  any  the  remotest  nniilarity  be- 
tween them  ?  In  the  one  case,  the  power  of 
accusation  begins  from  the  court; — in  the 
other,  firom  the  people  only;  forming  a  grand 
jury. — ^In  the  one,  the  defendant  must  plead 
a  special  justification,  the  merits  of  which 
can  only  be  decided  by  the  judges ; — ^in  the 
other,  he  may  throw  mmself  for  general  de- 
liverance upon  his  country.— In  the  first  the 
court  may  award  a  new  trial,  if  the  verdict 
for  the  defendant  be  contrary  to  the  evidence 
or  the  law ; — m  the  last  it  Is  conclusive  and 
unalterable: — and  to  crown  the  whole,  the 
king  never  had  that  process  of  attsdnt  which 
belonged  to  the  meanest  of  his  suttjects. 

When  these  things  are  attentively  consi- 
dered, I  might  ask  those  who  are  still  dis- 
posed  to  deny  tiie  right  of  the  jury  to  investi- 
gate, the  whole  ch^ge,  whemer^  such  a  so* 
lecism  can,  be  conceived  to  eust  in  anjr 
human  government,  much  less  in  the  moat 
refined  and  exalted^  In  the  world,  as  that 
a  power  of  suoreme  judicature  should  be  con- 
ferred at  ranaom  by  the  blind  forms  of  the 
law,  where  no  right  was  intended  to  pass 

th  it ;  and  which  was  upon  no  occasion  auid 


wn 


^  nor  any  opinion  but  that  of  Thymings,  IQUi 
*  of  Itenry  4,  titie  Attaint,  60  and  64,  for 

*  Set  it  Lo  tliiA  Collection,  vol,  6,  p.  999, 


imder  no  circumstance  to  be  exercised ; 
which,  though  exerted  notwithstanding  in 
every  age  ana  in  a  thousand  instances,  to  the 
confusion  and  discomfiture  of  fixed  magis- 
tracy, should  never  be  checked  by  authority, 
but  should  continue  on  from  xentuiy  to  cen- 
tury ;  the  revered  guardian  of  liberty  and  of 
life,  arresting  the  arm  of  the  most  headstronc 
governments  in  the  worst  of  times,  withoiU 
any  power  in  the  crown  or  its  judges^  to 
touch,  without  its  consent,  the  meanest 
wretch  in  the  kingdom,  or  even  to  ask  the 
reason  and  principle  of  the  verdict  which  ac- 
quits lum. — That  suchasystem  should  pie- 
vail  in  a  country  like  England,  without  either 
tiie  original  institution  or  the  acquiescing 
sanction  of  the  legislature,  is  impossible.— 
Believe  me,  my  lord,  no  talents  can  recon- 
cile, no  authority  can  sanction,  such  an  ab- 
surdity ; — ^the  common  sense  of  Uie  world  re- 
volts at  it. 
Having  established  this  importiat  dght  0| 


8811 


fir  a  SeH^unu  LiM*. 


A.  D.  1785* 


[98!? 


the  jmy  beyond  all  possibility  of  cavil  or 
controversy,  I  will  now  show  your  lordship, 
that  Its  existence  is  not  merely  consistent 
with  the  theory  of  the  law,  but  is  illustrated 
and  confirmed  by  the  universal  practice  of  all 
judges ;  not  even  excepting  Mr.  Justice  Fos- 
ter liiinself,  whose  writings  have  been  cited 
in  support  of  the  contrary  opinion.  How  a 
man  expresses  his  abstract  ideas  is  but  of  lit- 
tle importance  when  an  appeal  can  be  made 
to  his  plain  direction^  to  others,  and  to  his 
own  particular  conduct:  but  even^none  of 
his  expressions,  when  properly  considered 
and  understood,  militate  agamst  my  position. 
In  his  justly  celebrated  book  on  the  crimi- 
nal law,  page  256,  he  expresses  himself  thus : 
'The  construction  which  the   law  putteth 

*  nyon  fact  stated  and  agreed  oa  found  by 

*  a  jur^,  it  in  all  caset  vndoubtedly  the  proper 

*  prffDtnce  of  the  court*  Now  if  the  adversary 
Is  disposed  to  stop  here,  tiiough  the  author 
never  intended  he  should,  as  is  evident  from 
the  rest  of  the  sentence,  yet  I  am  willing  to 
stop  with  hiin^  and  to  take  it  as  a  substantive 

Sroposition;  for  the  slightest  attention  must 
iscover  that  it  is  not  repugnant  to  any  thing 
which  I  have  said.  Facts  ttated  and  agreea, 
ot  facts  foundf  by  a  jury,  which  amount  to 
the  same  thing,  constitute  a  special  verdict; 
and  who  ever  supposed  that  the  law  upon  a 
special  verdict  was  not  the  province  of  the 
court  ?  Where  in  a  trial  upon  a  general  issue 
the  parties  choose  to  agree  upon  facts  and  to 
slate  them,  or  the  jury  choose  voluntarily  to 
£nd  them  without  drawing  the  leeal  conclu- 
sion themselves;  who  ever  denied  that  in 
such  instances  the  court  is  to  draw  it  ? — That 
Foster  meant  nothing  more  than  that  the 
court  was  to  judge  of  the  lawj  when  the  jury 
thus  voluntanly  i>rays  its  assistance  by  spe- 
cial verdict,  is  evident  from  his  words  which 
follow,  for  he  immediately  goes  on  to  say; 
In  cases  of  doubt  and  real  difBcuHy,  it  is 
therefore  commonly  recommended  to  the 
junr  to  state  facts  and  circumstances  in  a  spe- 
cial verdict:  but  neither  here,  nor  in  any 
other  part  of  his  works,  is  it  said  oi{  insinuat- 
ed that  they  are  bound  to  do  ao,  but  at  their 
own  free  discretion:  indeed,  the  very  term 
recommended,  admits  the  contrary,  and  re- 
quires no  commentary.  I  &m  sure  I  shall 
never  dispute  the  wisdom  or  expediency  of 
such  a  recommendation  in  those  cases  of 
doubt,  because  the  more  I  am  contending  for 
the  existence  of  such  an  important  right,  the 
less  it  would  become  me  to  be  the  Mvocate 
of  rashness  and  precipitation  in  the  exercise 
of  it  It  is  no  denial  of  jurisdiction  to  tell 
the  greatest  magistrate  upon  earth  to  take 
gooocoimsel  in  cases  of  real  doubt  and  diffi- 
culty.— Judges  upon  trials,  whose  authority 
to  state  the  law  is  indisputable,  often  refer  it 
to  be  more  solemnly  amied  before  the  court ; 
and  this  court  itself  often  holds  a  meeting  of 
the  twelve  judges  before  it  decides  on  a  point 
upon  its  own  records,  of  which  the  others 
bars  coniesaedly  so  oogoizance  till  it  comes 


before  them  by  the  writ  of  error  of  one  of  the 
parties. — ^These  instances  are  monuments  of 
wisdom,  intejgrity,  and  discretion,  but  they  do 
not  bear  in  the  remotest  degree  upon  juris- 
diction :  the  sphere  of  jurisdiction  is  measured 
by  what  may  or  may  not  be  decided  by  any 
given  tribunal  with  legal  effect,  not  by  the 
vectitude  or  error  of  the  decision.  If  the  juryj 
according  to  these  authorities,  may  determine 
the  whole  matter  by  their  verdict,  and  if  the 
verdict  when  given  is  not  only  final  and  unaU 
terable,  but  must  be  enforced  by  the  autho* 
rity  of  the  judges,  and  executed,  if  resisted,  by 
the  whole  power  of  the  state, — upon  what 
princiule  or  government  or  reason  can  it  be 
arguea  not  to  be  law?  That  the  jury  are  in 
this  exact  predicament  is  confessed  by  Foster; 
for  he  concludes  with  saying,  that  when  the 
law  is  clear,  the  jury,  under  the  direction  of 
the  court,  in  point  of  law  may,  and  if  thev  are 
well  advised  will,  always  find  a  general  ver^ 
diet  conformably  to  such  directions. 

This  is  likewise  consistent  with  my  posi- 
tion :  if  the  law  be  clear,  we  may  presume 
that  the  judge  states  it  clearly  to  the  jury*; 
and  if  he  does,  undoubtedly  the  jury,  if^thev 
are  well  advised,  will  find  according  to  such 
directions ;  for  they  have  not  a  capncious  dis^ 
cretion  to  make  law  at  their  pleasui^y'butare 
bound  in  conscience  as  well  as  judges  are  to 
find  it  truly;  and,  generally  speaking,  the 
learning  ot  the  judge  who  presides  at  the  trial 
affords  them  a  safe  sumfort  and  direction. 

The  same  practice  of^iudges  in  stating  the 
law  to  the  jury,  as  applied  to  the  particular 
case  before  uiem,  appears  likewise  in  the 
case  of  the  King  against  Oneby,*  Sd  Lord 
Raymond,  p.  1494.  '  On  the  trial  the  judge 
'  directs  the  jury  thus :  If  you  believe  such 
and  such  witnesses  who  have  sworn  to  such 
and  such  facts,  the  killing  of  the  deceased  ap- 
pears to  be  with  malice  prepense :  but  if  you 
do  not  believe  them,  then  you  ought  to  find 
him  gjuilty  of  manslaughter ;  and  the  jury 
may,  if  tney  think  proper,  give  a  general 
verdict  of  murder  or  manslaughter :  but  if 
they  decline  giving  a  general  verdict,  Ind 
wiU  find  the  racts  speci^ly,  the  Court  is  then 
to  form  their  judgment  from  the  facts  found, 
whether  the  defendant  be  guiKv  or  not 
guilty,  t.  e.  whether  the  act  was  done  with 
malice  and  deliberation,  or  not' — Surely 
anguage  can  express  nothing  more  plainly 
or  uneqiuvocally,  than  that  where  the  general 
issue  is  pleaded  to  an  indictment,  the  law  and 
the  fact  are  both  before  the  jury;  and  that 
the  former  can  never  be  separated  from  the 
latter,  for  the  judgmeut  of  the  Court,  unless 
by  their  own  spontaneous  act :  for  the -words 
are,  *  If  they  decline  giving  a  general  verdict, 

*  and  will  find  the  facts  specially^  the  Court  is 

*  THEN  to  form  their  judgment  from  the  facts 

*  found/   So  that,  after  a  general  issue  joined^ 
the  authority  of  the  Court,  only  commences 

when  the  jury  chooses  to  decline  the  decision  of 

II,  I.I  -  — '-  -  —    -  I  —  •   ..- 

*  See  it  itt  tliis  Coliectioo,  vol.  17,  p.  39. 


2S  GEORGE  III.     Proceedings  against  the  Dean  of  St.  Asaph^     [984 

'  tiaruBd  assUtu  capiendtu  assignatifXiov  comt* 
'  VEhLKvr  juratores  diccre  precue  si  sit  distei^ 

*  gina  vet  non ;  dummodo  votuerint  dicere  veri^ 
<  totem  facti  et  petere  auxilium  justUiariarumJ 
From  these  words  it  should  appear,  that  the 
jurisdiction  of  the  jury  over  the  law  when  it 
came  before  them  on  the  general  issue,  was 
so  vested  in  them  by  the  constitution,  that  the 
exercise  of  it  in  all  cases  had  been  considered 
to  be  compulsory  upon  them,  and  that  thia 
act  was  a  legislative  relief  from  tliat  compul- 
sion in  the  case  of  an  assize  of  disseizin :  it  is 
equally  plain  from  the  remaining  words  of  the 
act,  that  their  jurisdiction  remained  as  before; 
'  sed  si  sponte  velint  dicere  quod  dissei$ina  ttt 
'  vel  nofif  admittatur  eorum  veredictum  sub  tuQ 

*  periculoJ 
But  the  most  material  observation  upon. 

this  statute,  as  applicable  to  the  present  sub- 
ject, is,  that  the  terror  of  the  attaint  from 
which  it  was  passed  to  relieve  them,  having 
(as  has  been  shown)  no  existence  in  cases  of 
crime,  tlie  act  only  extended  to  relieve  the 
jury  at  their  discretion  from  finding  the  law 
in  civil  actims ;  and  consequently  it  is  only 
from  custom,  and  not  from  positive  law,  that 
they  are  not  even  atmpellable  to  give  a  general 
verdict  involving  a  judgment  of  law  on  eveiy 

criminal  trial,  ,     .  . 

These  principles  and  authorities  certamiy 
establish  that  it  is  the  duty  of  the  judge,  on 
every  trial  where  the  genend  issue  is  pleaded, 
to  give  to  the  jury  his  opinion  on  the  law  as 
applied  to  the  case  before  them;  and  that 
Sey  must  find  a  general  verdict  comprehend- 
ing a  judgment  of  law,  unless  they  cAoose  to 
refer  It  specially  to  the  Court 

But  we  are  here,  in  a  case  where  it  is  con- 
tended, that  the  duty  of  the  judge  is  the  direct 
contrary  of  this  -.—that  he  is  to  give  no  opi- 
nion at  all  to  the  jury  upon  the  law  as  apphcd 
to  the  case  before  them ;— that  they  likewise 
are  to  refrain  from  all  consideration  of  it,  and 
yet  that  the  very  same  general  verdict  com- 
prehending both  feet  and  law  is  to  be  given 
Dy  them  as  if  the  whole  legal  matter  had  beea 
summed  up  by  the  one  and  found  by  the 

other. 

I  confess  I  have  no  organs  to  comprehend 
the  principle  on  which  such  a  practice  pro- 
ceeos.  I  contended  for  nothing  more  at  the 
trial  than  the  very  practice  recommended  by 
Foster  and  lord  Raymond : — I  addressed  mv- 
self  to  the  jury  upon  the  law  with  all  possible 
respect  and  deference,  and  indeed  with  veiy 
marked  personal  attention  to  the  leamol 
judge:  so  far  from  urg^g  the  jury,  do^mati- 
calfy  to  think  for  themselves  without  his  con- 
stitutional assistance.  I  called  for  his  opinion 
on  the  question  of  libel;  saying,  that  if  he 
should  tell  them  distinctiy  the  paper  indicted 
was  libellous,  though  I  should  not  admit  that 
they  were  bound  at  all  events  to  give  effect  to 
it  if  they  felt  it  to  be  innocent;  yet  I  waa 


983] 

the  law  by  a  general  verdict;  the  right  of  de- 
clining which  legal  determination,  is  a  privi- 
lege conferred  on  them  by  the  statute  of 
w  estminster  2d,  and  by  no  means  a  restric- 
tion of  their  powers. 

But  another  very  Important  view  of  the 
subject  remains  behind :  for  supposing  I  had 
failed  in  establishing  that  contrast  between 
criminal  and  civil  cases,  which  is  now  too 
clear  not  only  to  require,  but  even  to  iustify 
another  observation,  the  argument  would  lose 
nothing  bjr  the>  failure.  The  similarity  be- 
tween criminal  and  civil  cases  derives  all  its 
application  to  the  argument  firom  the  learned 
jnuge's  supposition,  that  the  jurisdiction  of 
the  jury  over  the  law  was  never  contended 
for  in  the  latter,  and  consequently  on  a  prin- 
ciple of  equaUty  could  not  be  supported  in  the 
former ;  whereas  I  do  contend  for  it,  and  can 
incontestably  establish  it  in  both.  This  appli- 
cation of  the  argument  is  plain  from  the  words 
of  the  Charge:  *if  the  iury  could  find  the 

*  law,  it  wouul  undoubtedly  hold  in  civil  cases 
'  as  well  as  criminal :  but  w^  it  ever  sup- 
^  posed  that  a  jury  was  competent  to  say  the 

*  operation  of  a  fine,  or  a  recovery,  or  a  war- 

*  ranty,  which  are  mere  questions  of  law  ?' 

To  this  question  I  answer,  that  the  com- 
petency of  tne  jury  in  such  cases  is  contended 
for  to  the  full  extent  of  my  principle,  both  by 
Lytdeton  and  by  Coke :  they  cannot  indeed 
decide  upon  them  deplanoy  which,  ^  Vaughan 
truly  says,  is  unintelligible,  because  an  un- 
mixed question  of  law  can  by  no  possibility 
come  before  them  for  decision ;  but  whenever 
(which  very  of\en  happens)  the  operation  of  a 
fine,  a  recovery,  a  warranty,  or  any  other  re- 
cora  or  conveyance  known  to  the  law  of  Eng- 
land comes  forward,  mixed  with  the  fact  on 
the  general  issue,  the  juiy  have  then  most 
unquestionably  a  right  to  determine  it;  and 
"what  is  more,  no  other  authority  possibly  can ; 
because,  when  the  general  jssue  is  permitted 
by  law^  these  questions  cannot  appear  on  the 
record  for  the  judgment  of  the  Court,  and  al- 
though it  can  grant  a  new  trial,  yet  the  same 
question .  must  ultimately  be  determined  by 
another  iury.'  This  is  not  only  self-evident 
to  every  lawyer,  but,  as  I  said,  is  expressly 
laid  down  by  Lyttieton  in  the  308th  section. 

*  Also  in  such  case  where  the  inquest  may 
'  give  their  verdict  at  Jarge,  if  they  w^iU  take 
'  upon  them  the  knowlec^  of  the  law  upon 


e- 
e 


'  the  matter^  they  may  give  their  verdict  gc 
'  nerally  as  it  is  put  in  their  charge  -.  as  in  tn  _ 
'  case  aforessdd  they  may  well  say,  that  the 
*  lessor  did  not  disseise  the  lessee  if  they  will.' 
Coke,  in  his  Commentary  on  this  section, 
confirms  Lyttieton ;  saying,  that  in  doubtful 
cases  they  should  find  specially  for  Fear  of  an 
attaint ;  and  it  is  pla^n  that  the  statute  of 
Westminster  the  9a,  was  made  either  to  give 
or  to  confirm  the  right  of  the  jury  to  find  the 
matter   specially,  leaving  their  jurisdiction 


llie  words  of  the  statute  of  Wettminster  9d, 
chapter  30th,  are^  '  Ordinatum  est  quodjiuti- 


over  the  Jaw  as  it  stood  by  the  common  law.  .  ready  to  agree  that  they  ought  not  to  go 


against  the  charge  without  great  considera- 
tion :  but  that  if  he  should  shut  himself  up 


985] 


Jw  a  SedUious  UbeL 


A.  D.  1785. 


[9W 


in'siknce,  givioe  no  opinion  at  all  upon  the 
criminality  of  tne  paper  from  which  alone 
any  guilt  could  be  fastened  on  Ufe  publisher, 
and  should  narrow  their  consideration  to  the 
.j^ublication,  I  entered  my  protest  ^^dnst  their 
iinding  a  verdict  affixing  the  epithet  of  g^iUy 
to  the  mere  fact  of  publishing  a  paper,  the 
guilt  of  which  had  hot  been  investigated.  If. 
after  this  address  to  the  jury,  the  leamea 
judge,  had  told  them,  that  m  his  opinion  the 
paper  was  a  libel,  but  still  leaving  it  to  their 
judgments,  and  likewise  the  defendant's  evi- 
dence to  their  consideration,  had  farther  told 
them,  that  he  thought  it  did  not  exculpate 
the  publication;  and  if  in  coijsequence  of 
such  directions  the  jury  had  found  a  verdict 
for  the  crown,  I  should  never  have  made  my 
present  motion  for  a  new  trial;  because  I 
should  have  considered  such  a  verdict  of  guilty 
as  founded  upon  the  opinion  of  the  jury  on 
the  whole  matter  as  left  to  their  considfera- 
tion,  and  must  have  sought  my  remedy  by 
arrest  of  judgment  on  the  record. 

But  the  learned  judge  took  a  direct  con- 
traiy  course : — he  gave  no  opinion  at  all  on 
the  guih  or  innocence  of  the  paper ; — he  took 
no  notice  of  the  defendant's  evidence  of  in- 
tention:— he  told  the  iury,  in  the  most  ex- 
plicit terms,  that  neither  the  one  nor  the 
other  were  within  their  jurisdiction ;  and  upon 
the  mere  (act  of  publication  directed  a  general 
verdict  comprehending  the  epiUiet  of  guiUy, 
after  having  expressly  withorawn  from  me 
jury  every  consideration  of  the  merits  of  the 
paoer  published,  or  the  intention  of  the  pub- 
lisner,  from  which  it  is  admitted  on  all  hands 
the  guiU  of  publication  could  alone  have  any 
existence. 

My  motion  is  therefore  founded  upon  this 
obvious  and  »mple  principle;  tiiat  the  de- 
fendant has  had  in  fact  ko  TRiiiL;  having 
been  foimd  guiUy  without  any  investigation 
of  his  guilt,  and  without  any  power  left  to  the 
jurv  to  take  cognizance  of  his  innocence.  I 
undertake  to  snow,  that  the  jury  could  not 
possibly  conceive  or  believe  from  the  judge's 
charge,  that  they  had  any  jurisdiction  to  ac- 
quit him  ;  however  they  might  have  been  im- 
pressed even  with  the  merit  of  the  publicar 
tion,  or  convinced  of  his  meritorious  intention 
in  pubhshitig  it :  nay,  what  is  worse,  while 
the  learned  judge  totally  deprived  them  of 
their  whole  juri^iction  over  the  question  of 
libel  and  the  defendant's  seditious  intention, 
be  at  the  same  time  directed  a  general  verdict 
of  guilty,  which  comprehended  a  judgment 
upon  bothk 

When  I  put  this  construction  on  the  learned 
judge's  direction,  I  found  myself  wholly  on 
the  language  in  which  it  was  communicated ; 
and  it  will  oe  no  answer  to  such  construction, 
that  no  such  restraint  was  meant  to  be  con- 
veyed by  it. — If  the  learned  judge's  inten- 
tions were  even  the  direct  contrary  of  his  ex- 
pressions, yet  if,  in  consequence  of  that  which 
was  expressed  though  not  intended,  the  jury 
"were  abridged  of  ajurisdictiou  which  belonged 


to  them  bv  law,  and  in  the  exercise  of  which 
the  defenoant  had  an  interest,  he  is  equally  a 
sufferer,  and  the  verdict  given  under  such  mis- 
conception of  authority  is  equally  void :  my 
application  ought  therefore  to  stand  or  fall  by 
the  charge  itself,  upon  which  I  disclaim  all 
disingenuous  cavilling. — I  am  certainlv  bound 
to  show,  that  from  uie  general  result  of  it^ 
fairly  and  liberally  interpreted,  the  jury  could 
not  conceive  that  they  had  any  right  to  ex- 
tend their  consideration  beyond  the  bare  fact 
of  publication,  so  as  to  acquit  the  defendant 
by  a  judgment  founded  on  the  legality  of  the 
Dialogue,  or  the  honesty  of  the  mtention  in 
publisning  it. 

In  order  to  understand  the  learned  judge's 
direction,  it  must  be  recollected  that  it  was 
addressed  to  them  in  answer  to  me,  who  had 
contended  for  nothing  more  than  that  these 
two  considerations  ought  to  rule  the  verdict; 
and  it  will  be  seen,  uiat  the  charge,  on  the 
contrary,  not  only  excluded  both  of  them  by 
general  inference,  but  by  expressions,  argu- 
ments, and  illustrations  the  most  studiously 
selected  to  convey  that  exclusion,  and  to 
render  it  binding  on  the  consciences  of  the 
jury.  Afler  telling  them  in  the  very  begin- 
ning  of  his  Charge,  that  the  single  question 
for  tneir  decision  was,  whether  the  defendant 
had  published  the  pamphlet  ?  he  declared  to 
them,  that  it  was  not  even  allowed  to  him,  as 
the  judge  trying  the  causey  to  sa^  whether  it 
was  or  was  not  a  hbel :  for  that  if  he  should 
say  it  was  no  hbel,  and  they,  following  his  di- 
rection, should  acquit  the  defendant,  they 
would  thereby  deprive  the  prosecutor  of  his 
writ  of  error  upon  the  record,  which  was  one 
of  his  dearest  birthrights.  The  law,  he  said, 
was  equal  between  the  prosecutor  and  the 
defendant;  that  a  verdict  of  acquittal  would 
close  the  matter  for  ever,  depriving  him  of 
his  appeal ;  and  that  whatever  therefore  was 
upon  tne  record  was  not  for  their  decision^  but 
might  be  carried  at  the  pleasure  of  either 
party  to  the  House  of  Lords. 

Surely  language  could  not  convey  a  limita* 
tion  upon  the  right  of  the  jury  over  the  ques- 
tion or  libel,  or  the  intention  of  the  publisher, 
more  positive  or  more  universal.  It  Was  po- 
sitive, inasmuch  as  it  held  out  to  them  that 
such  a  jurisdiction  could  not  be  entertained 
without  injustice ;  and  it  vras  universal,  be- 
cause the  principle  had  no  special  application 
to  the  particular  circumstances  of  that'  trial ; 
but  subjected  every  defendant  upon  every  pro- 
secution for  a  libelj  to  an  inevitable  convic- 
tion on  the  mere  proof  of  publishing  any 
tHingf  though  both  judge  and  jury  might  be 
convinced  tnat  the  thing  published  was  inno- 
cent and  even  meritorious. 

My  lord,  I  make  this  commentary  without 
the  nazard  of  contradiction  from  any  man 
whose  reason  is  not  disordered. — For  if  the 

Erosecutor  in  every  case  has  a  birthright  by 
iw  to  have  the  question  of  libel  lefl  open 
upon  the  record,  which  it  can  only  be  by  a 
verdict  of  conviction  on  the  single  fact  of  pub- 


987}  S3  GEORGE  HI.     PrcceeHi^i  ^gainH  the  Dean  qjfSt.  Ataph^    [8891 

beine  no  supersedeas,  the  jHinisbment  is  in- 
flict3  on  him  in  the  mean  time.  In  the  case 
of  Mr.  Home,*  this  Court  imprisoned  him  for 
publishing  a  libel  upon  its  own  judgment, 
pendinz  his  appeal  from  its  justice ;  and  he 
nad  suffered  tne  utmost  rigour  which  the  law 
imposed  upon  him  as  a  crime,  at  the  time 
that  the  House  of  Lords,  with  the  assistance 
of  the  twelve  Judges  of  England,  were  gravely 
assembled  to  determine,  wnether  hehad  been 
guilty  of  any  crime.  I  do  not  mention  this 
case  as  hard  or  rigorous  on  IS^r.  Horhe,  as  au 
individual :  it  is  Uie  general  course  of  prac- 
tice ;  but  surely  that  practice  ought  to  put  an 
end  to  this  argument  of  equality  between  pro^ 
secutor  and  orisoner.  It  is  adding  insult  to 
injury,  to  teO  an  innocent  man  who  is  in  a 
dungeon,  pending  his  writ  of  error,  and  of 
whose  innocence  both  judge  and  jury  were 
convinced  at  the  trial,  that  he  is  in  equal 
scales  with'  his  prosecutor,  who  is  at  large,- 
because  he  has  an  opnoriunity  of  decidmg 
afler  the  expiration  ot  nis  pumshment,  that 
the  prosecution  had  been  unfounded,  and 
his  sufferings  unjust. — By  parity  of  reasoning, 
a  prisoner  in  a  capital  case  might  be  hanged 
jn  the  mean  time  for  the  benefit  of  equal 
justice ;  leaving  his  exeaitors  to  fight  the  oat- 
tle  out  with  his  prosecutor  upon  the  reco^, 
through  every  court  in  the  kuigdom ;  by  which 
at  last  his  attainder  might  be  reversed,  and 
the  blood  of  his  posterity  remain  uncor^upt* 
ed. — What  justice  can  be  more  impartial  or 
equal } 

So  much  for  this  right  of  the  prosecutor  of 
a  libel  to  comnel  a  jury  in  every  case,  generally 
to  convict  a  aefendant  on  the  fact  of  publica^ 
tion,  or  to  find  a  special  verdict ; — a  right  un- 
heard of  before  since  the  birth  of  the  consti- 
tution ; — not  even  founded  upon  any  equatitv 
in  fact,  even  if  such  a  shocking  pari^  could 
exist  in  law,  and  not  even  contended  to  exist 
in  any  other  case,  where  private  men  become 
the  prosecutors  of  crimes  for  the  ends  of  pub- 
lic justice. — It  can  have,  generally  speaking, 
no  existence  in  anv  prosecution  for  felony; 
because  tlie  general  description  of  the  crime 
in  such  indictments,  for  the  most  part,  shuts 
out  the  legal  question  in  the  particular  in- 
stance from  appearing  on  the  record :  and  for 
the  same  reason,  it  can  have  no  place  even  in 
appeals  of  death,  &c.  the  only  cases  where 
prosecutors  appear  as  the  revengers  of  Uieir 
own  private  wrongs,  and  not  as  Uie  represen- 
tatives of  the  crown. 

The  learned  judge  proceeded  next  to  esta^ 
blish  the  same  unvoenal  limitation  upon  the 
power  of  the  jury,  from  the  history  of  differ 
rfent  trials,  and  the  practice  of  former  judges 
who  presided  at  them ;  and  while  I  am  com* 


lishinjg;  no  l^gal  Tieht  can  at  the  same  time 
exist  in  the  jury  to  snutout  that  question  by  - 
a  verdict  of  acquittal  founded  upon  the  merits 
of  the  publication,  or  the  innocent  mind  of 
the  publisher.  Rights  that  are  repugnant 
and  contradictory  cannot  be  co-existent.— The 
jury  can  never  have  a  constitutional  right  to 
do  an  act  beneficial  to  the  defendant  which 
when  done,  deprives  the  prosecutor  or  a  right 
which  the  same  constitution  has  vested  in 
him.— No  right  can  belong  to  one  person,  the 
exercise  of  lyhich  in  coery  instance  must  ne- 
cessarily work  a  vn-ong  to  another. — ^If  the 
prosecutor  of  a  libel  has  in  every  instance  the 

{rivilege  to  try  the  merits  of  his  prosecution 
^  efore  the  ju(]^es,  the  iurv  can  haye  no  right 
in  any  instance  to  preclude  his  appeal  to  them 
by  a  general  verdict  for  the  defendant. 

The' jury,  therefore,  from  this  part  of  the 
charge,  must  necessarily  have  felt  then^selves 
ubsomtely  limited  {t  might  say  even  in  their 
powers)  to  the  fact  of  publication;  because 
the  highest  restraint  upon  good  meb  i^  to 
^convince  them  that  they  cannot  break  loose 
from  it  without  injustice :  and  the  power  of 
a  good  subject  is  never  more  effectually  de- 
■stroyed  than  when  he  is  made  to  believe  that 
the  exercise  of  it  will  be  a  breach  of  his  duty 
to  the  public,  and  a  violation  of  the  laws  of 
his  country. 

But  si  Ace  equal  justice  between  the  prose- 
cutor and  the  defendant  is  the  pretence  for 
this  abridgment  of  jurisdiction,  let  us  examine 
a  little  how  it  is  affected  by  it. — Do  the  pro- 
secutor and  the  defendant  really  stand  upon 
an  equal  footing  by  tliis  mode  of  proceeding  ? 
AVith  what  decency  this  can  be  alleged,  I 
leave  those  to  answer  who  know  that  it  is 
only  by  the  indulgence  of  Mr.  Bearcroft,  of  - 
counsel  for  the  prosecution,  that  my  reverend 
client  is  not  at  this  moment  in  prison,*  while 
we  are  discussing  this  notable  eguality.  Be-  - 
sides,  my  lord,  the  judgment  or  this  Court, 
though  not  final  in  the  constitution,  and 
therefore  not  binding  on  the  prosecutor,  is 
absolutely  conclusive  on  the  aefendant. — If 
your  Ibrdsliips  pronounce  the  record  to  con- 
tain no  libel,  and  arrest  the  judgment  on  the 
verdict,  the  prosecutor  may  cany  it, to  the 
House  of  Lords,  and  pending  his  writ  of 
error,  remains  untouched  by  your  lordship*s 
decision ;  but,  if  judgment  be  against  the  ae- 
fendant, it  is  only  at  the  discretion  of  the 
crown  (as  it  is  said),  and  not  of  right,  that  he 
can  prosecute  any  writ  of  error  at  all ;  and 
even  if  he  finds  no  obstruction  in  that  quarter, 
Jt  is  but  at' the  best  an  appeal  for-  the  oenefit 
of  public  liberty,  from  which  he  himself  can 
have  no  personal  benefit;  for  the  writ  of  error 

■ 

*  Lord  MamMd  ordered  U«  dean  lo  be  com- 
Butted^OQ  Uie  notioQ  for  the  Dew  triAl ;  and  Mid, 
Be  Imd'fio  discreiion  to  snfTer  him  to  be  at  large, 
withoot  oouent,  after  bis  appearaUDe  lo  coart,  oa 
eoDvictaoo.  Upon  which,  Mr.  Bearcroh  gave  his 
consent  that  the  dean  shonld  remain  at  lanpe  apon 
bail.    Note  to  <  Lord  RrsUoe's  Speeches.' 


*  Afterwards  Mr.  Home  Tooke,  whoee  writingi 
do  Jionour  to  our  language  and  conntry.  Note  !• 
'  Lord  Erakine*s  Speedies.' 

See  in  this  Colleotioo,  the  Gases  of  Mr.  Kom^ 
Tol.  20,  p.  651,  and  of  Mr.  Horae  Tooke,  a.  m 
1794. 


§&ff]  Jbr  a  Sedikom  IdSa.' 

plaining  of  what  I  conceive  to  bfe  injustice,  I 
miist  take  care  not  to  be  uijjust  myself. — I 
certainly  do  not^  nor  ever  did  consider  th« 
learned  Judge's  misdirection  in  his  change  to 
be  peculiar  to  himself:  it  was  only  the  resist- 
ance of  the  defendant's  evidence,  and  what* 
passed  after  the  jury  returned  into  court  with 
the  verdict,  that  I  ever  considered  to  be  a  de- 
parture from  all  precedents :  the  rest  had  un- 
doubtedly the  sanction  of  several  modern 
cases ;  and  I  wish,  therefore,  to  be  distinctly 
understood,  that  I  partly  found  my  motion 
for  a  new  trial  in  opposition  to  these  aecisions. 
r-It  is  my  duty  to  speak  with  deference  of  all 
tBe  judgments  of  this  court ;  and  I  feel  an  ad- 
ditional respect  for  some  of  those  I  am  about 
to  combat,  because  they  are  your  lordship's : 
but  comparing  them  with  the  judgments  of 
Jour  predecessors  for  ages,  which  is  the  highest 
evidence  of  English  law,  I  must  be  forgiven  if 
I  presume  to  question  tlieir  Authority. 

My  lord,. it  is  necessary  that  I  should  take 
tiotice  of  some  of  them  as  they  occur  in  the 
learned  judge's  charge ;  for  althouch  he  is  not 
responsible  for  the  rectitude  of  those  prece- 
dents which  he  only  cited  in  support  of  it,  yet 
the  defendant  is  unquestionably  entitled  to  a 
new  trial,  if  tHeir  niinciples  are  not  ratified  by 
the  court ;  for  wnenever  the  learned  judge 
cited  precedents  to  warrant  the  limitation  on 
the  province  of  the  jury  imposed  by  his  own 
authority,  it  was  such  an  adoption  of  the  doc- 
trines they  contained,  as  maae  them  a  rule  to 
the  jury  in  their  decision. 

First,  then,  the  learned  judge,  to  overturn 
my  argument  with  the  jury  for  their  jurisdic- 
tion over  the  whole  charge,  opposed  your 
lordship's  established  priEu:tice  for  ei^ht  and 
twenty  years ;  and  the  weight  of  this  great 
auUiopty  was  increased  by  tne  general  man- 
ner in  which  it  was  stated ;  for  I  find  no  ex- 
pressions of  your  lordship's  in  any  of  the  re- 
ported cases  which  go  the  length  contended 
for.— I  find  the  practice  indeed,  fully  war- 
ranted by  them :  but  I  do  not  meet  with  the 
principle  which  c^n  alone  vindicate  that  prac- 
tice, fairly  and  distinctly  avowed.  The  learned 
.  judge,  therefore,  referred  to  the  charge  of 
chief  justice  Raymond,  in  the  case  of  the  Ring 
^nd  Franklin,  in  which  the  universal  limitation 
contended  for,  is  indeed  laid  down,  not  only 
in  the  most  unequivocal  expressions,  but  the 
^cient  jurisdiction  of  juries,  resting  upon  all 
jthe  authorities  I  have  cited,  treated  as  a  ridi- 
culous notion  which  had  been  just  taken  up 
^  little  before  the  year  1731,  and  which  no 
niah  living  had  ever  dreamed  of  before.  The 
.  )eamed  judge  observed,  that  lord  Raymond 
ktat^  to  the  jury  on  Franklin's  trial  that  there 
yere  three  questions :  the  first  was,  the  fact 
•of  publishing  the  Craftsman :  secondly,  whe- 
ther the  averments  in  the  information  were 
true :  but  that  the  third,  viz,  whether  it  was 
jft  libel,  was  merely  a  question  of  laz^y  \vith 
which  the  jury  had  nothing  to  do,  as  had  been 
then  of'  late  thought  by  some  people  who 
^ught  to  have  known  better. 


A,  D.  178S4 


[990' 


This  direction  of  lord  Raymond's  was  fully 
'  ratted  and  adoptedin  all  its  extent,  and  given 
to  the  jury,  on  the  present  trial,  with  several 
others  of  the  same  import,  as  an  unerring 
guide  for  their  oonduct;  and  surely  human  in- 
genuity could  not  frame  a  more  abstract  and 
universal  limitation  upon  their  ri^ht  to  acquit 
the  defendant  by  a  general  verdict;  for  lonl 
Raymond's  expressions  amount  to  an  abso« 
lute  denial  of  tne  right  of  the  jury  to  find  the 
defendant  not  guilty,  if  the  publication  and 
innuendos  are  proved.  *  Libel  or  no  libel,  is 
'  a  question  of  law,  with  which  you,  the  jury, 

*  have  nothing  to  do,*  How  then  can  they  have 
any  ri^hl  to  give  a  general  verdict  consistently 
with  this  declaration?— Can  any  man  in  hr$ 
senses  collect  that  he  has  a  tight  to  decide  on 
that  with  which  he  has  nothing  to  do  ? 

But  it  is  needless  to  comment  on  these  ex- 
pressions, for  the  jury  were  likewise  told  by 
the  learned  judge  himself,  that,  if  they  bei- 
lieved  the  factofpubUcation,  they  were  bound 
to  find  the  defendant  guilty ;  and  it  will  hardly 
be  contended,  that  a  man  lias  a  right  to  re- 
frain from  doing  that  which  he  is  bound  to  do. 

Mr.  Cowper,  as  counsel  for  the  prosecution, 
took  upon  nim  to  explain  what  was  meant  by 
this  expression  ;  ana  I  seek  for  no  other  coh^ 
struction :  *  The  learned  judge  (said  he)  did 

*  not  mean  to  deny  the  right  of  the  jury,  but 

*  onlv  to  convey,  that  there  was  a  religious 
'  and  moral  obli^tion  upon  theih  to  relraia 

*  from  the  exercise  of  it.'  Now,  if  the  prin- 
ciple which  imposed  that  obligation  had  Deel^ 
alleg|ed  to  be  special,  applying  only  to  the 
particular  case  of  the  d§an  qf  St.  Asaph,  and 
consequently  consistent  with  the  right  of 
the  jury  to  a  more  enlarged  jurisdiction  In 
other  instances ;  telling  the  jury  that  thej 
were  bound  to  convict  on  proof  of  publication, 
might  be  plausibly  construed  into  a  recom- 
incndation  to  refrain  from  the  exercise  of  their 
right  in  that  case,  and  not  to  a  general  denial 
of  its  existence ;  but  the  moment  it  isrecol-' 
lected,  that  the  principle  which  bound  them 
was  not  particular  to  the  instance,  but  abstract 
and  universal,  binding  alike  in  ever^  prosecu- 
tion for  a  libel,  it  requires  no  logic  to  pro- 
nounce the  expression  to  be  an  absolute,  un- 
equivocal, and  universal  denial  of  the  right : 
common  sense  tells  every  man,  that  to  speak 
of  a  person's  right  to  do  a  thing,  which  yet, 
in  everv  possible  instance  where  it  might  be 
exerteJ,  he  is  religiously  and  momlly  oound 
not  to  exert,  is  not  even  sophistry,  but  down- 
right vulgar  nonsense.  But  tlie  jury  were  not 
only  linuted  by  these  modern  precedents. 
Which  certainly  have  an  existence;  but  were 
in  my  mind  limited  with  still  greater  effect  bj 
the  learned  judge*s  decTaration,  that  some  of 
those  ancient  authorities  on  which  I  had  prin-^ 
cipally  relied  for  the  establishment  'of  their 
jurisdiction,  had  not  merely  been  over-rulec^ 
out  were  altogether  inapplicable.— I  particu- 
larly observed  how  mucn  ground  I  lost  with 
the  jury,  when  they  were  tuJd  from  thie  bench- 
that  even  in  Bushell's  case,  on  which  I  bad 


991]  25  GEORGE  III.     Proceedit^s  against  ike  Dean  of  St.  Asaph,     [993 


a|o  greatlv  depended,  the  very  reverse  of  my 
doctrine  had  oeen  expressly  established :  the 
court  having  said  unanimously  in  that  case, 
according  to  the  learned  judge's  statement, 
that  if  the  jury  be  asked  what  tiie  law  is^  they 
cannot  say,  and  having  likewise  ratified  m  ex- 
press terms  the  maxim,  ad  qtuestionem  legit 
non  respondent  juratoret. 

My  lord,  this  declaration  from  the  bench, 
which  I  confess  not  a  little  staggered  and  sur- 
prised me,  rendered  it  my  duty  to  look  again 
mto  Vaughan,  wl^ere  Bushell^s  case  b  report- 
€id:  I  have  performed  that  duty,  and  now. 
take  upon  me  positively  to  say,*  that  the 
words  of  lord  chief  justice  Vaughan,  which 
the  learned  judge  considered  as  a  judgment 
of  the  court,  denying  the  jurisdiction  of  the 
jury  over  the  law,  where  a  general  issue  is 
joined  before  them,-  were,  on  the  contrajpy, 
made  use  of  by  that  learned  and  excellent 
person,  to  expose  the  fallacy  of  such  a  mis- 
application of  the  maxim  alluded  to,  by  the 
counsel  against  Bushell ;  declaring  that  it  had 
no  reference  to  any  case  where  the  law  and 
the  fact  were  incorporated  by  the  plea  of  Not 
Guilty,  and  confirming  the  right  of  the  jury 
to  finathe  law  ui)on  eveiy  such  issue,  in 
terms  the  most  emphatical  and  expressive. 
This  is  manifest  from  the  whole  report. 

Bushell,  one  of  the  jurors  on  tne  trial  of 
l^enn  and  Mead,  had  been  committed  by  the 
court  for  finding  the  defendant  not  guilty, 
against  the  direction  of  the  court  in  matter  of 
law;  and  being  brought  before  the  court  of 
Common  Pleas  by  Haoeas  Corpus,  this  cause 
of  commitment  appeared  upon  the  face  of  the 
return  to  the  writ — It  was  contended  by  the 
counsel  ajgainst  Bushell  upon  the  authority  of 
this  maxim^  that  the  commitment  was  legal, 
since  it  appeared  by  the  return,  that  Bushell 
had  taken  upon  him  to  find  the  law  against 
the  direction  of  the  judge,  and  had  been 
•therefore  legally  imprisoned  for  thai  con- 
tempt.— It  was  upon  that  occasion  that  chief 
justice  Vaughan,  with  the  concurrence  of  the 
whole  court,  repeated  the  maxim,  ad  guM- 
tionem  legis  non  respondent  juratores,  as  cited 
by  the  counsel  for  the  crown,  but  denied  the 
application  of  it  to  impose  any  restraint  upon 
jurors  trying  any  crime  upon  the  general 
issue. — His  language  is  too  remarkable  to  be 
forgotten,  and  too  plam  to  be  misimderstood. 
Taking  the  words  of  the  return  to  the  Habeas 
Corpus,  viz.  *  That  the  jury  did  acquit  against 

*  the  direction  of  the  court  in  matter  of  law  ;• 

*  These  words,'  says  this  great  lawyer,  *  taken 
'  literally  and  de  piano  are  insignificant  and 

*  unintelligible,  for  no  issue  can  be  joined  of 

*  matter  of  law ;  no  jury  caa  be  charged  with 

*  the  trial  of  matter  of  law  barely ;  no  evi- 

*  dence  ever  was,  or  can  be  given  to  a  jury 

*  of  what  is  law  or  not;  nor  anv  oath  given 

*  to  a  jury  to  try  matter  of  law  aionCy  nor  can 

*  any  attaint  lie  for  such  a  false  oath.  There- 
'  fore  we  must  take  off  this  veil  and  colour  of 

*  word^  which  make  a  show  of  being  soine- 

*  thing,  but  are  in  fact  Mpthing :  for  if  the 


^  meaning  of  these  words,  finding  against  the 
'■  direction  of  the  court  in  matter  <yf  laxo^  be,^ 
'  thatif  the  judge,  having  iieaid  the  evidence 

*  given  in  court  (for  he  knows  no  other),  shall 
'  tell  the  jury  upon  this  evidence,  that  the 
'  law  is  for  the  plaintiff  or  the  defendant,  and 
^  they,  under  the  pain  of  fine  and  imprison- 
'  ment,  are  to  find  accordingly,  everyone  sees 
'  that  the  jury  is  but  a  troublesome  deUy, 
'  great  charge,  ahd  of  no  use  in  determining 
'  right  and, wrong;  which  were  a  strange  and 
'  new-found  conclusion,  after  a  trial  so  cele- 
'  brated  for  many  hundreds  of  years  in  this 

*  country.* 

Lord  chief  justice  Vaughan's  argument  is 
therefore  plainly  this.  Adverting  to  the  ar- 
guments of  the  counsel,  he  says.  You  talk  of 
uie  maxim  ad  qutoitionem  legis  non  respondent 
juratoreSf  but  it  has  no  sort  of  application  to 
your  subject. — The  words  of  your  return,  viz. 
That  Bushell  did  acquit  against  the  direction 
of  the  court  in  matter  of  law,  are  unintelliei- 
ble,  and,  as  applied  to  the  case,  impossible. 
The  jury  could  not  be  asked  in  the  abstract, 
what  was  the  law :  they  could  not  have  an 
issue  of  the  law  joined  before  them :  they 
could  not  be  sworn  to  try  it.  Ad  qiuestionem 
legis  non  respondent  juratores :  therefore  to 
say  literally  a(id  de  piano  that  the  jury  found 
the  law  against  the  judge*s  direction  is  ab- 
surd :  they  could  not  be  m  a  situation  to  find 
it ; — an  unmixed  question  of  law  could  not  be 
before  them : — the  judge  coukl  not  give  any- 
positive  directions  of  law  upon  the  trial,  for 
the  law  can  only  arise  out  of  facts,  and  the 
judge  cannot  know  what  the  &cts  are  till  the 
jury  have  given  their  verdict.  Therefore, 
continued  the  Chief  Justice,  let  us  take  off 
thb  veil  and  colour  of  words,  which  make  a 
show  of  being  something,  but  are  in  fact  no- 
thing :  let  us  get  rid  of  \ht  fill  lacy  of  applying 
a  maxim,  which  truly  describes  tlie  jurisdic- 
tion of  the  courts  over  issues  of  law,  to  destroy 
the  jurisdiction  of  jurors,  in  cases  where  law 
and  fact  are  blended  together  upon  a  trial  :«- 
since,  if  thejunr  at  the  trial  ape  bound  to  re^ 
ceive  the  law  from  the  judge,  every  one  sees 
that  it  is  a  mere  mockeiy,  and  of  no  use  in 
determining  right  and  Wtong. — ^This  is  the 
plain  common  sense  of  the  argument;  and  it 
IS  impossible  to  suggest  a  dbtinction  between 
its  application  to  Bushell*s  case  and  to  tiie  pre- 
sent; except  that  the  right  of  imprisoning 
thejurors  was  there  contended  for,  in  order 
to  enforce  obedience  to  the  directions  of  the 
judge. — But  this  distinction,  if  it  deserves  the 
name,  though  held  up  by  Mr.  Bearcroft  as 
very  important,  is  a  distinction  without  a  dif- 
ference; for  if.  according  to  Vaughan,  the 
free  agency  of  the  jury  over,  the  whole  chaige» 
uncontrolled  by  the  judge^s  direction,  consti- 
tutes the  whole  of  that  ancient  mode  of  trial^ 
it  signifies  nothing  by  what  means  that  free 
agency  is  destroyed;  whether  by  the  impri- 
sonment of  conscience  or  of  bony :  by  the 
operation  of  their  virtues  or  of  their  fisars.^- 
Whether  they  d^line  exerting  their  Jurisdic- 


993] 


for  a  Seditious  LibeL 


tioD  from  being  told  that  the  exertion  of  it  is 
a  contempt  of  religious  and  moral  order,  or  a 
contempt  of  the  court  punishable  bv  impri- 
sonment ;  their  jurisdiction  is  equally  talcen 
away. 

My  lord,  I  should  be  very  sorry  improperly 
to  waste  the  time  of  the  Court,  but  I  cannot 
help  repeating  once  aeain,  that  if,  in  conse- 
quence of  the  learned  judge's  directions,  the 
jury,  from  a  just  deference  to  learning  and 
authority,  from  a  nice  and  modest  sense  of 
duty,  felt  themselves  not  at  liberty  to  deliver 
the  defendant  Irom  the  whole  indictment; 
BB  HAS  KOT  BERN  TRIED :  because,  though  he 
was  entitled  b^r  law  to  plead  generally  that 
he  was  not  giiilty;  though  he  did  in  fact 
plead  it  accoraingly,  and  went  down  to  trial 
upon  it,  yet  the  jury  have  not  been  permitted 
to  try  tiiat  issue,  but  have  been  directed  to 
find  at  all  events  a  general  verdict  of  Guilty ; 
with  a  positive  injunction  not  to  investigate 
the  guilt,  or  even  to  listen  to  any  evidence  of 
innocence. 

My  lord,  I  cannot  help  contrasting  this 
trial^  with  that  of  colonel  Gordon  but  a  few 
sessions  past  in  London. — I  had  in  my  hand 
but  this  moment,  an  accurate  note  of  Mr. 
Baron  Eyre's*  charge  to  the  jury  on  that  occa- 
sion ;  I  will  not  detain  the  Court  by  looking 
for  it  amongst  my  papers ;  becaufte  I  believe 
I  can  correctly  repeat  the  substance  of  it. 

Earl  of  Mantfield.  The  case  of  the  King . 
against  Cosmo  Gordon  ? 

Mr.  Ertkine,  Yes,  my  lord :  colonel  Gor- 
don was  indicted  for  the  murder  of  general 
Thomas,  whom  he  had  killed  in  a  duel :  and 
the  Question  was.  whether,  if  the  juiy  were 
satisfied  of  that  fact,  the  prisoner  was  to  be 
convicted  of  murder^  TAa/ was,  according  to 
Foster,  as  much  a  Question  of  law,  as  libel  or 
no  libel :  but  Mr.  Baron  Eyre  did  not  there- 
fore feel  himself  at  liberty  to  withdraw  it  from 
the  jury.  After  stating  (greatly  to  his  ho- 
nour) the  hard  condition  ofthe  prisoner,  who 
was  DTOUjght  to  a  trial  for  life,  in  a  case  where 
the  positive  law  and  the  prevailing  manners  of 
the  times  were  so  strongly  in  opposition  to 
one  another,  that  he  was  afraid  tne  punish- 
ment of  individuals  would  never  be  able  to 
beat  down  an  offence  so  sanctioned,  he  ad- 
dressed the  jury  nearly  in  these  words: 
Nevertheless,  gentlemen,  I  am  botmd  to 
declare  to  you,  what  the  law  is  as  applied 
to  this  case,  in  all  the  different  views  in 
which  it  can  be  considered  hy  you  upon  the 
evidence. — Of  this  law  andattkefactt  at  you 
thall  find  themy  your  verdict  must  be  com- 
pounded ;  and  I  persuade  myself,  that  it  will 
be  such  a  one  as  to  give  satisfaction  to  your 
*  own  consciences.' 

Now,  if  Mr.  Baroii  Eyre,  instead  of  telling 
the  juiy  that  a  duel,  however  fairly  and  bo- 
nourabfy  fought,  was  a  murder  by  the  law  of 

*  Afterwardf  iaooesilTely  Lord  Chief  Baron  of 
the  oourt  of  foohequer,  uid  Lord  Chief  Jaitioe  of 
Um  eoiirt  of  OoamMMi'  ?l«ai» 

VOL.  XXI. 


A.  D.  178S.  [994 

England,  and  leaving  them  to  find  a  genera^ 
verdict  under  that  direction,  had  said  tothent, 
that  whether  such  a  duel  was  murder  or 
manslaughter,  was  a  question  with  which 
neither  he  nor  they  had  any  thing  to  do,  and 
on .  which  he  should  therefore  deliver  no  opi- 
nion ;  and  had  directed  them  to  fihd  that  trie 
prisoner  was  guilty  of  killing  the  deceased  in 
a  deliberate  auel,  telling  them,  that  the  court 
would  settle  the  rest;  that  would  have  been 
directly  consonant  to  the  case  of  the  dean  of 
St  Asaph. — By  this  direction,  the  prisoner 
would  nave  been  in  the  hands  of  the  court, 
and  the  judges,  not  the  iury,  would  have  de- 
cided upon  the  life  of  colonel  Gordon. 

But  the  two  learned  judges  differ  most  es^ 
sentiallv  indeed:  Mr.  Baron  Evre  conceives 
himself  bound  in  duty  to  state  the  law  as  ap- 
plied to  the  particular  facts,  and  leave  it  to 
the  jury. — Mr.  Justice  Bullcr  saysf,  he  is  not 
bound  nor  even  allowed  so  to  state  or  apply 
it,  and  withdraws  it  entirely  from  their  cbnsi* 
deration. — Mr.  Baron  Eyre  tells  the  jury  that 
their  verdict  is  to  be  compounded  of  the  ^t 
and  the  law. — ^Mr.  Justice  Buller,  on  the  con- 
trary, that  it  is  to  be  confined  to  the  (act 
only,  the  law  being  the  exclusive  province  of  . 
th^  Court.  My  lord,  it  is  not  for  me  to  settle 
differences  of  opinion  between  the  judges  of 
England,  nor  to  pronounce  which  of  them  is 
wrong :  but  since  they  are  contradictory  and 
inconsistent,  I  may  hazard  the  assertion  that 
they  cannot  both  be  right:  the  authorities 
which  I  have  cited,  and  the  general  sense  of 
mankind  which  settles  every  thing  else,  must 
determine  the  rest. 

My  lord,  I  come  now  to  a  very  important 
part  ofthe  case,  untouched  I  "believe  before 
in  any  of  the  arguments  on  this  occasion. 

I  mean  to  contend,  that  the  learned  judge^s 
charge  to  the  jury  cannot  be  supported  even 
upon  its  own  principles ;  for,  supposing  the 
court  to  be  of  opinion  that  all  I  have  said  in 
opposition  to  these  principles  is  inconclusivcy 
and  that  the  question  of  libel,  and  the  inten- 
tion of  the  publisher,  were  properly  vnlth- 
drawn  firom  the  consideration  of  the  jury,  still 
I  think  I  can  make  it  appear  that  such  a 
judgment  would  only  render  the  misdirection 
more  palpable  and  striking. 

I  may  safely  assume,  that  the  learned  judge 
must  have  meant  to  direct  the  jury  either  to 
find  a  general  or  a  special  verdict;  or,  to 
speak  more  generally,  that  one  of  these  two 
verdicts  must  be  the  object  of  every  charge : 
because  I  venture  to  affirm,  that  neither  the 
records  ofthe  courts,  the  reports  of  their  pro- 
ceedings, nor  the  writings  of  lawyers,  furnish 
any  account  of  a  third. — There  can  be  no 
middle  verdict  between  both;  the  jury  must 
either  try  the Vhole  issue  generally,  or  find  the 
&cts  specially,  referring  the  legal  conclusion 
to  the  cour(. 

I  may  afiirm  with  equal  certainty,  Uiat  the 
general  verdict,  ex  vi  terminiy  is  universi^v 
as  comprehensive  as  the  issue,  and  that  con-> 
sequently  well  a  verdict  on  an  iadiotinenty 


993] 


S3  GEORGE  III.     Proceedings  against  the  Dean  of  St.  Asaph,     [996 


upon  the  general  issue,  Not  guilty,  univer- 
lally  and  unavoidably  involves  a  judgment  of 
law,  as  well  as  fact ;  because  the  charge  com- 
prehends both,  and  the  v^dict,  as  has  been 
'said,  is  co-extensive  with  it.  Both  Coke  and 
Littleton  give  this  precise  definition  of  a  ge- 
.  neral  veroiQt,  for  tney  both  say,  that  if  the 
jury  will  find  the  law,  they  may  do  it  by  a  gcr 
neral  verdict,  which  is  ever  as  large  as  Uie 
issue. — If  this  be  so,  it  follows  by  necessary 
consequence,  that  if  the  judge  means  to  direct 
the  jury  to  find  generally  against  a  (defendant, 
he  must  leave  to  their  consideration  everv 
thing  which  goes  to  the  constitution  of  such 
a  general  verdict,  and  is  therefore  bound  to 
permit  them  to  come  to^  and  to  direct  them 
np\w  to  form  that  general  conclusion  from 
the  law  and  the  fact,  which  is  involved  in  the 
term  Guilty. --Yoi  it  is  ridiculous  to  sa^>  that 
suilty  is  a  fttci ;— it  b  ^  conclusion  m  law 
from  a  fact,  and  therefore  can  have  no  place 
in  a  special  verdict,  where  the  legfl  conclu- 
sion is  left  to  tiie  court. 

In  this  case  the  defendant  is  charsed,  not 
with  having  published  this  pamphlet,  Dul,with 
having  published  a  certain  false^  scandalous, 
and  seoitious  libel,  witli  a  seditious  and  re- 
bellious intention. — He  pleads  that  he  is  not 
guilty  in  manner  and  form  as  he  is  accused ; 
which  plea  is  admitted  on  all  hands  to  be  a 
denial  of  the  whole  charjge,  and  consequently 
does  not  merely  put  in  issue  the  fact  of  nub- 
lishing  the  pampnlet;  but  tJbi^  truth  o/the 
whole  indictment,  i.  e.  the  j>ublication  of  the 
libel  set  forth  in  i^  with  the  intention  charged 
by  it. 

When  this  issue  comes  down  for  trial^  the 
jury  must  either  find  the  whole  charge  or  a 
part  of  U ;  and  admitting,  for  argument  sake, 
that  the  judge  has  a  ri^  to  di^te  either  of 
these  two  courses;  he  is  undoubtedly  bound 
in  law  tQ  make  his  direction  to  the  juiy  con- 
formable to  the  one  or  the  other.  If  he 
means  to  confine  the  jury  to  the  fact  of  pub- 
lishing, considering  the  guilt  of  the  defendant 
to  be  a  legal  concuision  for  the  court  to  draw 
from  that  £ELCt,  specially  found  on  the  record, 
he  ought  to  direct  the  Jury  to  find  that  fact 
without  affixing  the  epithet  of  Guilty  to  the 
finding. — But,  if  he  will  have  a  general  ver- 
dict of  Guilty,  which  involves  a  judgment  of 
law  as  well  as  fact,  he  must  leave  the  law  to 
the  consideration  of  the  jury ;  since  when  the 
word  Guilty  is  pronounced  by  them,  it  is  so 
TirelJ  understood  to  comprehend  every  thing 
charged  by  the  indictment,  that  the  associate 
Qr  his  clerk  instantly  records,  thiut  the  de- 
^ndant  is  guilty  in  manner  ana  form  as  he  is 
accused,  i.  e,  not  simply  that  he  has  published 
the  pamphlet  contained  in  the  indictment; — 
but  that  he  ia,  guilty  of  publisJiing  the  libel 
with  the  wicked  mtentions  charged  on  him  by 
,  the  record. 

Now,  if  this  effect  of  a  general  verdict  of 
piiilty  is  rejected  on  for  a  monient,  the  ille- 
gality of  directing  one  upon  the  bare  fact  of 
pubhsliing,  will  appear  in  the  most  glaring 


colours. — ^The  learned  judge  says  to  the  jury. 
Whether  this  be  a  Ubel  is  not  for  your  consi- 
deration ;  I  can  give  no  opinion  on  that  sub- 
ject without  injustice  to  the  prosecutor ;  and 
as  to  what  Mr.  Jones  swore  concerning  the 
defendant's  motives  for  the  publication,  that 
is  likewise  not  before  you :  for  if  you  are  sa-  • 
tisfied  in  point  of  fact  that  the  defendant  pu^ 
lisJied  this  pamphlet,  you  are  bound  to  find 
him  guilty.    Why  guilty,  my  lonl,  when  the 
consideration  of  gMUt  is  withdrawn  ?   He  con- 
fines the  jury  to  the  finding  of  a  fact,  and  en- . 
joins  them  to  leav^  the  le^  conclusion  l&t>m 
It  to  the  court :  yet,  inst^  of  directing  them 
to  make  that  ract  the  subject  of  a  special  ver- 
dict,' he  desires  them  in  the  same  breath  to 
find  9,  general  one;— to  draw  the  conclusion 
without  aj>y  attention  to  the  premises : — to 
pronounce  a  verdict  which  upon  the  face  of 
the  record  includes  a  judgment  upon  theiir 
oaths  tlii^t  the  paper  is  a  lioe],  and  thsiX  the 
publisher's  intentions  in  publishing  i^  were 
wicked  and  seditious^  although  neither  the 
que  nor  the  other  made  any  part  of  their  con- 
sideration.— ^^Mv  lord,  such  a  verdict  is  9,  n^on-- 
Sjl^r  in  law,  without  precedent  in  fonjur  limes, 
or  root  in  the  constiUition.-^If  it  be  true,  on 
the  principle  of  the  chargQ  itself,  that  th^  &ct 
of  jHiblication  was  all  that  the  jury  were  tK> 
find,  and  all  that  was  necessary  to  estabUah 
the  defendant's  guilt,  if  the  thing  published 
be  a  libely  why,  was  not  that  fact  found  like 
all  other  facts  upon  special  verdicts? — ^Why 
was  an  epithet,wmch  is  a  le^  conclusion,  fiom 
the  fact,  extorted  from  a  jury  whp  wece  le^ 
strained  from  forming  it  themselves  ?  The  ver- 
dict myst  be  taken  to  be  general  or  special :  if 
genera),  it  has  found  the  whof^  issue  ^tboot 
a  co-extensive  examination : — ^if  special^  the 
WQrd  Gyilty,  which  is  a  conclusion.from  facis, 
can  have  np  place  in  it — Either^  this.moni 
Guilty  is  operative  or  unessential ;  an  mthet 
of  sub^ancei  or  of  form. — ^It  is  impossible  to 
controvert  that  proppsition,  and  I  ^ve  the 
gentlemen  their  choice  of  the  alt^ixu^v«w — ^If 
they  admit  it  to  be  <^eratiye  and  of  real  auh- 
stance,  or.  to  speak  more  plainly,  th^^t  the 
fact  of  publication  found  specially,  witheul 
the  epitnet  of  Guilty,  i^ould  miye  bei^n  an  im. 
perfect  verdict  inconclusive  of  the  deifeiM)aiit*& 
guilt,  and  on  whi^h  qo  judgment.  CQuld  have 
followed :  t|iQn  it  is  imposswle  to  deny  that 
the  defeiidant  Im  s^fierifid  injustice;  becauie* 
such  an  admisjsipn  confesses  th^  a  ccimioal* 
conclusion  from  a  facthas  been  Qbtained from' 
the  jury,  without  permittmg  them  to  exercise* 
that  judgment  which  might  have  led  them  to 
^  conclusion  of  innocence;   and  that  the- 
word  Guilty  has  been  obtained  firom  them  at> 
the  trial  as  a  mere  matter  of  lorm,  although* 
the  verdict  without  it,  staling  only  the  &cl  of 
publication  wbif:h  they  were  direcled  to  fiad^* 
towhidi  they  tiaought.  the  fielding  alone  en-, 
larged,  and  beyond  which  they  hm  never  en* 
larged  their  enq|u^;y;  would  wve  been  an  ab- 
solute verdict  of  ae(|uittal. — ^I^  on  the  others 
hancl^  to  avoid  t£is  iasiipenhle  objection  to 


«9rj 


Jor  tf  flMtemi  WmL 


A.  D.  178d» 


[998 


the  ch&rg^  the  irohl  O^lty  Is  t6  be  reduced 
iq  a  mete  word  of  form,  tod  it  19  td  be  con- 
tended that  the  fkct  of  pub]iicatk>il  found  spe-; 
"cially  would  have  been  tantiihoiiht ;  be  it  96 : 
r— let  the  terdict  be  so  recorded  ;-^let  the 
'^ord  Guiltv  be  expunged  fW^m  it,  tod  I  iii- 
attotly  sit  down;— i  trouble  yobr  lordships  no 
ftrther; — I  withdraw  tilky  motion  fbr  a  new 
trial,  and  will  maintain  in  arrest  of  judgment, 
that  the  dean  is  not  conticted.  But  irthis  is 
tibt  conceded  to  me,  ahd  the  \^ord  Giillty, 
though  argued  to  be  but^/brm.  and  though  as 
atich  obtained  from  the  jury,  (s  still  {^reserved 
ti]M)n  the  recdtd,  tod  made  Ute  of  against  the 
defendant  ad  iubUaiict;  it  ti^Ul  then  become 
iis  (independently  of  all  consideration  as  law- 
yers), to  consider  a  little  how  that  argument 
Is  to  be  maae  consistent  with  the  honouJr  df 
gentlemen^  or  that  fairness  of  dealing  wMch 
ctonot  bnt  have  place  wherever  justice  is  ad- 
ciinistered. 

But  in  order  to  establish  that  the  word 
Cruilty  18  a  word  of  essential  substance;  that 
the  verdict  would  have  been  imperfect  with- 
out it;  and  that  therefore  the  defendant 
suffers  bv  its  insertion ;  I  undertake  to  show 
yofur  lordship,  upon  every  principle  and  au- 
ihority^  of  law,  that  if  the  fact  of  publication, 
which  was  all  that  was  \tfi  X<q  the  jury,  had 
l>een  found  by  special  verdic^  no  judgment 
could  have  been  given  on  it. 

My  lord,  I  will  try  this  by  taking  the  fUllest^ 
^dine  which  the  facts  In  evidence  could  pos- 
sibly have  warranted.  Supposing  then,  for 
instance,  that  the  jury  had  found  that  the  de- 
fendant published  the  paper  according  to  the 
teilour  6t  the  indictment :  that  it  wa^  written 
of  tod  concerninrthe  king  tod  hls^verU'- 
tnentr  tod  that  the  innuendos  Were  likewise 


ndt  ptonoitnee  that  he  published  it  with  the 
nidlieious  intention  which  is  the  essence  of 
the  crime :  they  could  not  sdy  whai  might 
have  passed  at  the  tHal  \-^f(k  any  thing  that 
appealed  to  them  he  might  have  given  such 
evidence  of  innocent  motive,  necessity,  or 
mistake,  as  might  have  amounted  to  excuse 
or  iustificatibn. — They  would  say,  that  the 
facts  stated  upon  the  verdict  would  have  been 
fully  sufficient  ih  the  absence  of  a  legal  de- 
^fente  to  have  i^arrartled  the  judge  to  have  di- 
rected, tod  the  jury  to  have  nven  a  general 
verdict  of  Guilty,  coiriprehenaing  the  inten- 
tion which  constitutes  the  crfme :  but  that  to 
warrant  the  Benchf  which  is  ignorant  of  every 
thing  at  the  trial,  to  presume  that  intention, 
and  thereupon  to  pronounce  judgment  on  the 
record,  the  jiiry  mUst  not  merely  find  full  evi- 
dence of  the  crime,  but  such  facts  as  compose 
its  legal  definition.  This  wise  principle  i$ 
Supported  by  authorities  which  are  perfectly 
familiar. 

If,  in  an  action  of  trover,  the  plaintiff  proves 
prbpetty  in  himself,  possession  in  the  defend- 
ant, and  a  demtod  and  refusal  of  the  thing 
charged  to  be  converted ;  this  evidence  unan- 
swered is  full  prpof  of  a  conversion ;  and  if 
the  deftndant  could  not  show  to  the  jury  why 
he  1^  refused  to  deliver  the  plaintiffs  pro- 
perty on  a  legal  detMtod  of  it,  thieiudge  Would 
dhect  tiiem  to  find  him  guilty  of  the  conver- 
sion .—But  on  the  ^me  facts  foiitid  by  special 
verdicty  ho  judgment  could  be  given  by  the 
court :  the  judged  would  say,  If  the  special 
Verdict  contains  the  whole  of  the  evidence 
given  at  the  trial,  the  jury  should  have  found 
the  defendant  guilty ;  for  the  conversion  was 
fully  proved,  but  we  cannot  declare  these  facts 
to  amount  to  a  conversion,  for  the  defendanVa 


as  averred,  iL  meaning  the  preseht  King,  and  I  intentitm  was  a  fact,  which  the  jury  should 


P.  the  pre^nt  Parliament  of  Great  Britain : 
On  such  a  finding,  ud  judgment  could  bate 
been  given  by  the  court,  even  if  the  Record 
had  containea  a  complete  charge  of  a  libel. 
No  principle  is  more  unquestionable  than  that, 
to  warrant  any  judgment  upon  a  special  ver- 
dict, the  court,  which  can  presuine  nothing 
that  is  not  visible  on  the  record,  fnust  see  suf- 
fiiciifnt  niatter  upon  the  face  of  it^  which,  if 
taken  to  be  true  is  cdnclushe  of  the  defecfd- 
anf tf  guilt  They  must  be  able  to  say,  If  this 
record  be  true^  the  defcndtot  caniiot  be  inno^ 
eent  of  the  cnme  which  it  charges  on  him.— ^ 
But  from  the  ftu:ts  of  such  a  verdict  the  court 
coukl  arrive  at  no  such  legitimate  conchision ; 
for  it  is  admitted  on  all  hands,  and  indeed  ex- 
pressly laid  down  by  your  lordship  ifi  the  case 
of  the  King  against  Woodfall,*  ttiat  pubHca- 
tion  even  of  a  libel  id  not  conchurce  evidence 
6f  guilt :  for  that  the  defendant  niay  give  evi- 
dence of  an  innocent  pubhcation. 

Looking  therefore  upon  a  Nfcord  containing 
a  good  indictment  6f^  a  libel,  aiM)  a  verdict 
finding  that  the  defendant  publish^  it,  but 
Without  the  epithet  of  Guilty,  the  court  could 

•  Vol.  «),  p.  W5. 


have  found  from  the  evidence,  over  which  we 
have  ncf  jurisdiction.  So  iii  the  case  put  by 
lord  Coke,  I  believe  in  his  first  Institute  1 15^ 
'^If  a  modus  is  found  to  have  existed  beyond 
memOiy  till  within  thirty  years  before  the 
trials  the  coitft  cann6t  upon  such  facts  found 
.  by  special  verdict  pronounce  against  the  mo- 
du^:  but  toy  one  of  your  lordships  would 
certainly  tell  the  jury,  that  upon  such  evi- 
dence they  were  war^nted  in  rniding  against 
it.    In  df  cases  of  prescription^  the  universal 

1  practice  of  judges  is  to  direct  juries,  by  anal- 
ogy to  tht  statute  of  limitations,  to  decide 
against  incorptfireal  rights,  which  for  many 
years  have  been  relinquished ;  but  such  mo- 
dem relincpiishments,  if  stated  upon  the  re- 
cord by  special  verdict.  Would  in  no  instance 
warrant  a  judgment  against  any  prescription. 
The  prmciple  of  the  difieren^e  is  obvious  apd 
universal :  the  court  looking  at  a  record  can 
presume  notiiing ;  it  has  nothing  to  do  with 
rciisonable  probabilities,  but  is  to  establish 
legal  certainties  by  its  judgments. — Every 
cnme  is,  like  every  other  complex  idea, 
capable  of  a  lezal  definition :  if  all  the  com- 
ponent parts  which  go  to  its  formation  are 
put  as  facts  upon  the  record,  the  court  caa 


S9S] 


23  GEORGE  III.    Proceedings  against  the  Dean  of  St.  Asaph,    [1000 


pronounce  the  perpetrator  of  them  a  criminal : 
put  if  any  of  them  are  wanting,  it  is  a  chasm 
in  fact,  and  cannot  he  supplied.  Wherever 
intention  goes  to  the  essence  of  the  charge,  it 
must  he  found  by  the  jury ;  it  must  he  ieither 
compreh^ded  under  the  word  Guilty  in  the 

feneral  verdict,  or  specifically  found  as  a  fact 
y  the  special  veraict.  This  was  solemnly 
decided  by  the  court  in  Uuggins's  case,*  in  se- 
cqnd  lord  Raymond,  1581,  which  was  a  spe- 
cial venlict  of  murder  from  the  Old  Bailey. 

It  was  an  indictment  against  John  Huggins 
and  James  Barnes,  for  the  murder  of  Edward 
Arne.  The  indictment  charged  that  Barnes 
made  an  assault  upon  Edwara  Arne,  bein^  in 
the  custody  of  the  other  prisoner  Huggms, 
and  detained  him  for  six  weeks  in  a  room 
newly  built  over  the  common  sewer  of  the 
prison,  where  he  languished  and  died:  the 
indictment  further  charged,  that  Barnes  and 
Huggins  well  knew  that  the  room  was  un- 
wholesome and  dangerous;  the  indictment 
then  charged  that  the  prisoner  Huggins  of 
his  malice  aforethought  was  present,  aidipg, 
and  abetting  Barnes,  to  commit  the  murder 
aforesaid.  This  was  the  substance  of  the  in- 
dictment. 

The  special  verdict  fou6d  that  Huggins  was 
warden  of  the  Fleet  by  letters  patent;  that 
the  other  prisoner  Barnes  was  servant  to 
Gibbons,  Huggins'  deputy  in  the  care  of  all 
the  prisoners,  and  of  the  deceased  a  prisoner 
there. — ^Thatthe  prisoner  Barnes,  on  the  7  th 
of .  September,  put  the  deceased  Arne  in  a 
room  over  the  common  sewer  which  had 
been  newly  built,  knowing  it  •  to  be  newly 
built,  and  damp,  and  situated  as  laid  in  the 
indictment:  mnd  that  fifteen  dayi  before  the 
prisoner's  death,  Huggins  likewise  well  knew 
that  the  room  was  new  built,  damp,  and  situated 
as  laid.  They  found  that  fifteen  days  before 
the  death  of  the  prisoner,  Huggins  was  pre- 
sent in  the  room,  and  saw  him  there  under 
duress  of.  imprisonment,  but  then  and  there 
turned  away^  and  Barnes  locked  the  door,  and 
that  from  that  time  till  hU  death  the  deceased 
remained  locked  up. 

It  was  argued  before  the  twelve  judges  in 
Serjeants'  Inp,  whether  Huggins  was  guOty  of 
murder.  It  was  agreed  that  he  was  not  an- 
swerable criminally,  for  the  act  of  his  deputy, 
and  could  not  be  guilty,  unless  the  criminal 
intention  was  brought  personally  home  to 
himself:  and  it  is  remarkable  liow  stronely 
the  judges  required  the  fact  of  knowle^ 
and  malice,  to  be  stated  on  the  face  of  the 
verdict,  as  apposed  to  evidence  of  intention, 
apd  inference  from  a  face. 

The  Court  said,  It  is  chiefly  relied  on  that 
Hiiggins  was  present  in  the  room,  and  saw 
Arne  sub  dur'Uie  imprisonamenti,  et  se  avertit ; 
hut  he  might  be  present,  and  not  know  all 
the  circumstances ;  the  words  are  vidit  sub 
duritie ;  but  he  might  see  him  under  duress, 

*■  See  the  Proooedingi  ftguBst  |liigg;ij|i  in  Vol. 
%/  of  lliis  CoUectMMi. 


and  not  know  he  was  under,  duress :  it 
answered,  that  ^eing  him  under  duress  evi- 
dently  means  he  knew  he  was  under  duress;  , 
but  says  the  court,  '  We  cannot  take  things  by 

*  inference  in  this  manner ;  his  seeing  is  but 
^  evidence  of  his  knowledge  of  these  things;  and 

*  therefore  the  jury,  if  the  fact  would  have 
'  borne  it,  should  hone  found  that  Huggins 
'  knew  he  was  there  without  his  consent ;  which 
'  not  being  dane^  we  cannot  intend  these  things 

*  nor  infer  them  ;  we  must  judge  of  facts,  and 

*  not  from  the  evidence  of  facts  ;*  and  cited 
Kelynge,  78 ;  that  whether  a  man  be  aidinr 
and  abetting  a  murder  is  matter  of  fact,  and 
ought  to  be  eipresslv  found  by  a  jury. 

The  application  of  these  last  pnnciples  and 
authorities  to  the  case  before  the  Court  is  ob- 
vious and  simple. — ^The  criminal  intention  is 
a  fact,  and  must  be  found  by  the  jury :  and 
that  finding  can  only  be  expressed  upon  the 
record  by  tne  general  verdict  of  Guilty  which 
comprehends  it,  or  by  the  special  enumera- 
tion of  such  facts  as  do  not  merely  amount  to 
evidence  of,  but  which  completely  and  con- 
clusively constitute  the  crime :  but  it  has  been 
shown,  and  is  indeed  admitted,  that  the  pub- 
lication of  a  libel  is  ooly  primd  facie  evidence 
of  the  complex  charge  m  the  indictment,  and 
not  such  a  fact  as  amounts  in  itself,' when 
specially  stated,  to  conclusive  guilt;  since,  as 
tne  judges  cannot  tell  how  the  criminal  in* 
ference  from  the  fact  of  publishing  a  libel, 
might  have  been  rebutted  at  the  trial;  no 
judgment  can  follow  fronri  a  special  finding, 
that  the  defendant  published  the  paper  in- 
dicted, according  to  tne  tenour  laid  m  the  in- 
dictment.— It  follows  from  this,  that  if  the 
jury  had  only  found  the  fact  of  publication^ 
which  was  ^1  that  was  left  to  them,  withaui 
affixing  the  epithet  of  Guilty,  which  could  only 
IJe  legally  aflixed  by  an  investigation  not  per- 
mitt^  to  them,  a  venire  facias  de  nova  must 
have  been  awarded  because  of  the  uncertainty 
of  the  verdict  as  to  the  criminal  intention : 
whereas  it  will  now  be  argued,  that  if  the 
Court  shall  hold  the  Dialogue  to  be  a  libel, 
the  defendant  is  fully  convicted ;  because  the 
verdict  does  not  merely  find  that  he  pub- 
LisaED,  which  is  a  finding  consistent  with  in* 
nocence,  but  finds  him  guilty  of  publishing^ 
which  is  a  finding  of  the  criminal  pubUcatiton 
charged  by  the  indictment. 

My  lord,  how  I  shall  be  able  to  defend  my 
innocent  client  against  such  an  argument  I 
am  not  prepared  to  say ;  I  feel  all  the  weight 
of  it ;  but  that  feeling  surely  entitles  me  to 
greater  attention,  when  I  complain  of  that 
which  subjects  him  to  it,  without  the  warrant 
of  the  law, — It  is  the  weight  of  such  an  ar- 
gument that  entitles  me  to  a  new  trial :  for 
the  dean  of  9t  Asaph  is  not  only  found 

fuiltv,  without  an)r  investization  of  his  guilt 
y  the  jury,  but  without  tnat  question  bcins 
even  open  to  your  lordships  on  tlie  record. 
Upon  the  record,  the  Court  can  only  saylbe 
Dialogue  is,  or  is  not,  a  libel ;  but  if  it  should 
pronounce  it  to  be  one,  the  criminal  inteq* 


1001], 


Jot  a  Seditiow  Libei. 


lion  of  the  defendant  in  publishing  it  is  taken 
for  granted  by  the  word  Guilty ;  although  it 
has  not  only  not  been  tried^  but  evidently 
appears  from  the  vodict  itself  not  to  have 
.   been  found  by  the  jurv. — ^Their  verdict  is, 

*  Guilty  of  publishing ;  but  whether  a  libel  or 

*  not,  they  do  not  find.'-^And  it  is  therefore 
impossible  to  say  that  they  can  havC'  foimd  a 

I  criminal  motive  in  publishing  a  paper,  on  the 
criminality  of  which  they  nave  formed  no 
jud^ent.  —  Printing  and  publishing  that 
which  is  legal,  conlams  in  it  no  crime ; — ^the 
ffuilt  must  arise  from  the  publication  of  a 
Ebel;  and  there  is  therefore  a  palpable  re- 
pugnancy on  the  face  of  the  verdict  itself, 
which  first  finds  the  dean  guilty  of  publish- 
ing, and  then  renders  tlie  finding  a  nullity, 
by  pronouncing  ignorance  in  the  jury  whe- 
ther the  thing  published  comprehends  any 
guilt. 

.To  conclude  this  part  of  the  subject,  the 
epithet  of  giulty  (as  I  set  out  with  at  first) 
must  either  be  taken  to  be  substance,  or 
form. — If  it  be  substance,  and,  as  such,  con- 
cliisive  of  the  criminal  intention  of  the  pub- 
lisher, should  the  thing  published  be  here- 
after adjudged  to  be  a  libel,  I  ask  a  new  trial, 
because  the  defendant's  guilt  in  that  respect 
has  been  found  without  having  been  tned : 
if,  on  the  other  hand,  the  word  guilty  is  ad- 
mitted to  be  but  a  word  of  form,  then  let  it 
be  expunged,  and  I  am  not  hurt  by  the  ver- 
dict. 

Having  now  established,  according  to  my 
two  first  propositions,  that  the  jury  upon' 
every  general  issue,  joined  in  a  criminal  case, 
liave  a  constitutional  jurisdiction  over  the 
whole  charge,  I  am  next,  in  support  of  my 
third,  to  contend,  that  the  case  of  a  libel 
forms  no  lesal  exception*  to  the  general  prin- 
ciples whicn  govern  the  trial  of  all  other 
crimes ; — that  the  argument  for  the  difference, 
viz.  because  the  whole  charge  always  appears 
on  the  record,  is  false  in  fact,  and  that,  even 
if  true,  it  would  form  no  substantial  difference 
in  law. 

As  to  the  first,  I  still  maintain  that  the 
whole  case  does  by  no  means  necessarily  ap- 
pear on  the  record. — The  crown  may  indict 
part  of  the  publication,  which  may  bear  a 
criminal  construction  when  sef)arated  from 
the  context,  and  the  context  omitted  having 
no  place  in  the  indictment,  the  defendant  can 
neither  demur  to  it,  nor  arrest  the  judgment 
afler  a  verdict  of  guilty ;  because  ue  Court 
is  absolutely  ciraimscribed  by  what  appears 
on  the  record,  and  the  record  contains  a  legal 
charge  of  a  libel 

I  maintain  likewise,  that,  according  to  the 
principles  adopted  upon  this  trial,  he  is 
equally  shut  out  from  such  defence  before 
the  jury;  for  though  he  may  read  the  expla- 
natory context  in  evidence,  ^et  he  can  derive 
no  advantage  from  reading  it,  if  they  are  tied 
down  to  find  him  guilty  of  publishing  the 
n^atter  which  is  contained  in  the  indictment, 
however  its  imiocence  may  be  established  by 


A,  D-  1783-  [100!^ 

a  view  of  the  whole  work. — The  only  opera- 
tion which  looking  at  the  context  can  nave 
upon  8  jury  is,  to  convince  them  that  the 
matter  upon  the  record,  however  libellous 
when  taken  by  itself',  was  not  intended  to 
convey  the  meaning  which  the  words  in- 
dicted import  in  language,  when  separated 
from  the  general  scope  pf  the  writing :  but 
upon  the  principle  contended  for,  they  could 
not  acquit  the  defendant  upon  any  such  opi- 
nion, for  that  would  be  to  take  upon  them  tne 
prohibited  Question  of  libel,  which  is  said  to 
be  matter  oi  law  for  the  Court. 

My  learned  friend  Mr.  Bearcrof^  appealed 
to  his  audience  with  an  air  of  triumph,  whe- 
ther any  sober  man  could  believe,  that  an 
English  jury,  in  the  case  I  put  from  Algernon 
Sidney,  would  convict  a  deiendant  of  publish- 
ing the  Bible,  should  the  crown  indict  a  mem* 
ber  of  a  verse  which  was  blasphemous  in  it- 
self if  separated  from  the  context.  My  lord, 
if  my  friend  had  attended  to  me,  he  would 
have  found,  that,  in  considering  such  sup- 
position as  an  absurdity,  he  was  only  re- 
peating my  own  words. — ^I  never  supposed 
that  a  jury  would  act  so  wickedly  or  so  ab- 
surdly, in  a  case  where  the  princiole  coni- 
tended  for  by  my  friend  Mr.  Bearcrott  carried 
so  palpable  a  face  of  injustice,  as  in  the  in- 
stance which  I  selected  to  expose  it;  and 
which  I  therefore  selected  to  show,  that  there 
were  cases  in  which  the  supporters  of  the 
doctrine  were  ashamed  of  it,  and  obliged  to 
deny  its  operation:  for  it  is  impossible  to 
denv  that,  if  the  jury  can  look  at  the  context 
in  the  case  put  by  Sidney,  and  acquit  the  de- 
fendant on  the  merits  of  the  thing  published, 
they  may  do  it  ip  cases  which  will  directly 
operate  a^inst  the  principle  he  seems  to  sup- 
port.— ^Tbis  wiH  appear  from  other  instances,* 
where  the  injustice  is  equal,  but  not  equally 
striking. 

Suppose  the  crown  were  to  select  some  pas- 
sage from  Locke  upon  Goveniment;  as  for 
instance;  '  that  there  was  no  difference  ie- 
'  tzoeen  the  king  and  the  constable  when  either 
*  of  them  exceeded  their  authority,*  That  a»* 
sertion,  under  certain  circumstances,  if  taken  - 
by  itself  without  the  context,  might  be  highly 
seditious,  and  the  question  therefore  would  b»e 
quo  animo  it  was  written ;— ^perhaps  the  real 
meaning  of  the  sentence  might  not  be  disco- 
verable bv  the  immediate  context  without  a 
view  of  the  whole  chapter, — perhaps  of  the 
whole  book ;  therefore  to  do  justice  to  the  de- 
fendant, upon  the  very  principle  by  which 
Mr.  Bearcrofl  in  answering  Sidney's  case  can 
alone  acquit  the  publisher  of  his  Bible,  the 
jury  must  look  into  the  whole  Essay  on 
Government,  and  foim  a  judgment  of  the 
design  of  the  author,  and  the  meaning  of  his 
work. 

Lord  Mansfield,  To  be  sure  they  may  judge 
from  the  whole  work. 

Mr.  Erskine.  And  what  is  this,  my  loni, 
but  determining  the  question  of  libel  which 
is  denied  to-day  r  for  if  a  jury  may  acquit  \h^ 


1005)  3i  GEOftGFE  lU.    Proem 

yoblifiher  of  any  part  bf  Mt.  tockt  oh  OtVehi- 
tiMiit)  from  VLnjApaeni  ittisaig  oilt  of  A  tiew 
«rf  the  wiiole  book,  though  there  be  no  thmi- 
^odos  to  be  filled  Hp  as  facts  iii  the  i&diet- 
ttent,— 0A41/  ii  it  that  bound  the  jufy  t0  eon- 
▼ict  the  deim  of  St.  Asaph,  as  the  piibiishet 
<>f  sir  William  Jones's  Dialogue,  on  tiie  bar« 
Ikct  of  publication,  without  the  rieht  of  saj- 
iog  that  hii  obserrations  as  well  as  Mr. 
hSck^iy  were  speculallYe,  abstract,  and  le^  f 
Lord  Manifield.  They  cettahily  may  iA  aH 
-  cases  go  iotothfe  whole  context 

Mr.  Er$kine.  And  «Ay  may  they  ^  iill^ 
-ihe  context? — Clearly^  my  lord,  to  en^le 
theni  lo  form  a  correct  iudgmefit  of  the  mean- 
ing of  the  part  indicted,  even  though  no  par- 
ticular meaning  ht  submitted  to  them  by 
averments  in  tne  indictment ;  and  therefore 
the  very  permission  to  look  at  the  context 
for  such  a  purpose  (where  there  ate  no  in- 
nuendos  to  be  filled  up  by  them  as  facts),  is 
a  palpable  admission  of  all  I  am  contending 
ibr»  viz.  the  right  of  the  jury  to  judge  of  the 
merits  of  the  pstper^  and  the  intention  of  the 
author.* 

But  it  is  said,  that  though  a  jury  have  a 
right  to  decide  that  a  paper  criminal  as  &r  as 
it  appears  on  the  record,  is  nevertheless  legal 
when  explained  by  the  whole  work  of  which 
'  it  is  a  part ;  yet  that  they  shall  have  no  right 
to  say  that  the  whole  work  itself,  if  it  happens 
to  be  all  indicted,  is  innocent  and  legal.  This 
^position,  my  lord,  upon  the  bare  stating  of 
It,  seems  too  preposterous  to  be  seriously  en- 
tertained ;  yet  there  is  no  allefnatite  between 
maintaining  it  in  its  fUJl  extent,  and  abandon- 
ing the  whole  argument. 

If  the  defendant  is  indicted  for  publishing; 
part  of  the  verse  in  the  Psalms,  <  Thert.  is  no 
*  Ood,'  it  is  asserted  that  the  jmy  may  look 
at  the  contejct,  and  seeing  th^l'the  Whole 
'  verse  did  not  maintain  that  blasphemoot  pro- 
position, birt  only  that  the  fool  had  said  s6  in. 
nis  hMtrt,  may  acciuit  the  defendant  Opon  a 
Judgment  that  it  is  no  FibCFl^  to  Iniptild  such 
miMfnstion  to  a  fooh  but  if  the  whofe  verse 
had  oeen  indicted,  viz.  *  The  fool  has  said  in 
<  his  heart,  There  is  no  Ood  ;*  the  ^Iry,  on 
the  principle  contended  to,  wo«^h)  l>e  r^ 
strained  from  the  sftme  jtrifeMent  of  Hd  lega- 
lity, and  rtnst  Convict  of  Nasph^my  on  tho 
fact  Of  publishing,  leaving  the  cfueirflott  of 
libel  untouclM^  on  the  uitSr6, 

If,  in  the  same  maAinef ,  only  ohtt  Of  this 
T€iy  Diak)gnc  had  been  hidicled  impleatl  of 
tho  whole,  it  t^  said  ei^^n  by  your  lofdship, 
tftat  the  jliry  m^t  hAv^  reM  the  content, 
and  then.  notwitlmafiMRng  the  fafct  of  Mblish- 
ing,  tt^rght  have  tolleeted  ftork  the  #woie,  if^ 
abstract  and  specolatrte  naiore,  and  have  ac- 
<patled  the  def<MdaM  upoH'  l^st  jihdgmeivt 
of  it ; — add  yet  it  is  contended  that  they  have 
no  right  to  form  the  same  jw^gment  of  it 


dg/Aut 


[lOM 


*  TBe  riglit  wm  fully  ^Mrobed  Iby  tlM  jQry  who 
tried  uld  mcn«utted  Mr.  Slockdilew  N0C6  to  «  Lordl 
R*skifie't  llpeeciftM.' 


ution  the  present  occasioh,  aithou^tiie  wb<rfe 
be  b^re  them  upon  the  fi^e  of  the  indict- 
ments—but are  bound  to  convict  the  defen- 
dant ttt>ob  the  &ct  of  puUiahing,  notwith- 
standing they  should  have  come  to  the  same 
judgment  of  its  legality,  which  it  is  admitted 
they  might  hftve  eome  to,  on  trying  an  iodiet- 
ment  for  the  pablication  of  a  pert.  Beallj, 
my  lord,  the  ai>sutdities  and  gross  departures 
from  reason,  which  must  be  nasirded  to  sup- 
|ioH  this  docttii^e,  ate  endless. 

The  criminality  of  the  paper  is  said  to  be  I 
lluestien  of  law,  yet  the  meaning  of  it,  frodi 
whieh  alone  the  l^gal  interpretation  cin  aiise^ 
is  aduiltted  to  be  a  question  of  foci— If  tbe 
text  be  so  perplexed  and  dubious  as  to  require 
innucndos  to  explain,  to  point  and  to  a^^ 
obscure  expression  or  construction,  the  juiy 
klone,  as  judges  of  fact,  are  to  interpret  and 
to  say  what  sentiments  the  author  must  hau 
Ineant  to  convey  by  his  writing : — ^yet  if  the 
writing  be  so  pisun  and  intelligible  as  to  re- 
quire no  averments  of  its  meaning,  it  tben 
becomes  so  obscure  and  mysterious  as  to  be 
a  question  of  law,  and  beyond  the  reach  of 
the  very  same  men  who  but  a  moment  befori 
were  interpreters  for  the  jtidges;  and  though 
its  object  be  most  obviously  peaceable  and  iti 
author  innocent,  they  are  bound  to  say  upoo 
their  oaths,  that  it  is  wicked  and  seditious^ 
and  the  publisher  of  it  guilty. 

As  a  question  of  ftct  thfe  jury  are  to  tnrtbe 
real  sense  and  construction  of  the  words  in- 
dicted,' by  compttiiig  them  with  the  eonteit : 
and  yet  if  that  context  itself,  which  affofo 
the  comparison,  makes  part  of  the  indid- 
ment,  the  whole  becomes  a  qoestron  of  law, 
and  they  are  then  bound  down  to  convict 
the  defendant  on  the  fact  of  publishing  H; 
without  any  jurisdiction  over  tbe  meanii^.— 
To  complete  the  jdggle,  the  intention  of  the 
publisher  may  likewise  be  shown  as  a  fact,  by 
the  evidence  of  any  extrinsic  circufAstttce^ 
such  as  the  context  to  explain  the  writing,  or 
the  circumstances  of  mistake  or  ignoraoce 
under  which  it  was  published ;  and  yet  in  tbfr 
same  breath,  the  Intention  is  pronounced  to 
be  an  inference  of  law  fifom  the  act  of  publi- 
cation, which  the  jury  cannot  extlude,  but 
which  must  depend  upon  the  fiiturc  jodgracftt 
of  the  Court. 

But  the  danger  of  this  system  h  no  less  ob- 
vious than  Hs  absunlfity.  I  do  not  belitt* 
that  ito  authors  ever  thought  of  inflirtii^ 
doath  upon  Englishmen,  withoirt  the  mfe'p^ 
sitiottotajifiy;  yet  its  cstabfishmcnt  wosld 
unqivestionabfy  exfend  to  annihifcte  the  sub- 
stance of^that  trial  in  every  prosecotion  for 
high  treasofi,  where  the  pubticataon  of  aBy 
writing  was  laid  as  the  overt  act.  I  illustrated 
this  by  a  case  wlien  I  moved  for  a  rule,  and 
called*  upon  my  friends  for  an  answer  to  it. 
but  no  notice  has  been  taken  of  it  by  anv  of 
them ;— this  was  jil#t  what  I  expected  .—when 
a  convinchie  answer  cannot  be  found  to  an 
objection,  tnose  who  understand  controversy 
never  give  stivngtb  to  it  by  •  wwriton^ 


ms] 


Jbr  4  ScdUioMS  lAW* 


A.  P,  17W. 


Ciooa 


I  said,  and  I  ag^  repeat,  that  if  an  indict- 
ment  uiBX%t&  w\  a  aefendaqt  did  traitOF- 
ously  inteiio,  compass,  and  imagine  the  death 
of  the  king ;  and,  in  order  to  carry  suph  trea- 
son into  execution,  published  a  paper,  which 
it  sets  out  literatim  on  the  face  oi  the  record, 
tiie  pripciple  which  is  laid  down  to-day  would 
subject  that  person  to  the  pains  of  death  by 
the  single  authority  of  the  judges,  without 
leaving  any  Chin^  to  the  jury,  but  the  bare  fact 
of  publishing  vie  paper. — For,  if  thai  fact 
were  proved  and  the  defendant  called  no  wit- 
nesses, the  judge  who  tried  him  would  be 
warranted,  nay  bound  in  duty  by  the  prin- 
ciple in  question,  to  say  to  the  jury,  Gentle- 
men, the  overt  act  of  treason  charged  upon 
the  defendant,  is  the  pubUcatioa  of  tni«  paper, 
intending  to  coropasai  the  death  of  the  king ; 
— the  &ct  is  proved,  and  you  are  therefore 
bound  to  convict  him :  the  treasonable  inten* 
tion  is  an  inference  of  law  from  the  act  of 
publishing;  «nd  if  the  thing  published  does 
not  upon  a  future  examination  intrinsically 
support  that  inference,  the  Court  will  arrest 
the  judgment,  and  your  verdict  wilt  not  afibct 
)he  prisoner. 

My  lord,  I  will  rest  my  whole  argument 
xxftjia  the  analogy  between  theae  two  cases, 
and  give  up  every  objection  to  the  doctrine 
when  applied  to  the  (Mie,  if,  upon  the  strictest 
examination,  it  shall  not  be  found  to  apply 
equally  to  the  other.  . 

If  the  seditious  intention  be  an  inference  of 
law,  from  the  fact  of  publishing  the  paper 
which  this  indictment  charges  to  oe  a  libel,— > 
is  not  the  treasonable  intenjdon  equally  an 
inference  from  the  fact  of  publishing  that 
paper,  wliicb  the  other  indictment  charges  to 
be  an  overt  act  of  treason  ?  In  the  one  ease 
as  in  the  other,  the  writing  or  pubUcation  of 
i,  paper  is  the  whole  charge ;  and  the  sub- 
stance of  the  paper  so  written  or  published 
makes  all  the  difference  between  the  two 
offences. — If  that  substance  be  matter  of  law 
where  it  is  a  seditious  libel,  it  must  be 
matter  of  law  where  it  is  an  act  of  treason : 
and  if  because  it  is  law  the  jury  ave  excluded 
from  judging  it  in  the  one  instance,  their 
judgipent  must  suffer  an  equal  abridgment  In. 
'the  other. 

The  conaequience  is  obvious.  If  the  jury,  by 
an  appeal  to  their  consdences,  are  to  be  thus 
limited  in  the  free  exercise  of  that  right  which 
waa  given  them  by  the  constitution,  to  be  a 
protection  against  judicial  authority,  where 
the  weight  and  majesty  of  the  crown  is  put 
into  the  scale  against  an  obscure  individual, — 
the  freedom  of  the  press  is  at  an  end :  for  how 
can  it  be  said  that  the  press  is  free  bcK^use 
every  thing  may  be  published .  without  a  pre* 
vious  license,  if  the  publisher  of  the  most 
meritorious  work  whidi  the  united  powers  of 
genius  and  patriotism  ever  gave  to  tne  world) 
may  be  prosecuted  by  information  of  ^• 
kin^s  Attorney  General,  without  the  consent 
of  Uie  grand  jury, — may  be  convicted  by  the 
petty  Jury,  on  the  inere  Act  jof  publiehmg 


(who,  Indeed,  without  peijuriQg  th«i«selv«^ , 
mt)st  QP  this  system  inevitably  convict  kiia), 
and  ipust  then  depend  upon  jude^s,  ^ho  Bsay 
be  tba  supporters  of  the  very  aojcuaistiatioa 
who^e  measures  are  auestioned  by  the  de^ 
fendant,  and  who  must  therefore  either  give 
judjg^ent  against  him  or  a^nst  themselves  f 

To  all  this  ]Ar.  Bearcrott  shortly  answers. 
Are  you  not  in  the  hands  of  the  same  judges, 
with  respect  to  your  property  and  even  to ' 
your  life,  when  special  verdicts  are  found  in 
murder,  felony,  and  treason  ?  In  these  cases 
do  prisoners  run  a^y  haxard  from  the  appli^ 
faUpn  of  the  law  by  the  judges,  to  the  Scia 
found  by  the  juries  ?  Whm  can  you  possibly 
be  safer  ? 

My  lord,  this  is  an  argument  whiich  I  can 
answer  without  indelicacy  or  offence,  becaus# 
your  lordship's  mind  is  muth  too  liberal  to 
suppose,  that  I  insult  the  Court  by  genen^ 
observations  on  the  principles  of  our  legS 
government: — ^however  s^e  we  might  be,  op 
might  think  ourselves,  the  constitutx>n  never 
intended  to  invest  judges  with  a  discretion, 
which  cannot  be  tried  and  measured  by  the 
plain  and  palpable  standard  of  law;  and  in 
all  the  cases  put  by  Mr.  Bearcrofi^  no  suoh 
loose  discretion  is  exercised  as  must  be  enter- 
tained by  a  judgment  on  a  seditious  libel,  aikl 
therefore  this  cases  are  not  parallel/ 

.On  a  special  verdict  for  murder,  the  life  of 
the  prisoner  does  not  depend  upon  the  reli* 
^us,  moral,  or  philosophical  ideas  of  the 

judgeis,  concerning  the  nature  of  homicide : 

no;  preoedenis  are  searched  for,  and  if  he  ia 
condemned  at  all,  he  is  judged  exactly  by  the 
same  rule  as  others  have  been  judged  by  be- 
fore him ;  hit  conduct  is  brought  to  a  precise^ 
clear,  iatelligyi)]e  standard,  and  cautiousi;^ 
measured  by  it :  it  is  the  law,  therefore,  am' 
not  tlie  judge,  which  condemns  him. — It  is 
the  same  in  all  indictments,  or  civil  actions, 
for  slander  upon  individuals. 

Reputation  is  a  personal  right  of  the  sub- 
ject,  mdeed  the  most  valuable  of  any,  and  ii 
IS  therefore  secured  by  law,  and  all  imuriea 
to  it  clearly  ascertained.  Whatever  sUmder 
hurts  a  man  in  luq  tmde, — ^subjecte  bim  to 
danser  of  life^  liberty,  or  loss  of  poperty,-M>c 
tend&to  render  him  infamous,  is  the  subject 
of  an  action,  and  in  some  instanpes  of  an  in*- 
dictment;  but  in  all  these  cases,  where  the 
mabu^animm  b  found  by  the  jury,  the  judges 
are  in  like  manner  a  safo  reposiloiy  of  3ie 
l^al  consequence ;  because  such  libels  may 
be  brought  to  a  well-known  standard  of  strict 
and*  positive  law : — ^they  leave  no  (iSscretion 
in  tl]UB  judges:— tile  determinailion  of  what 
words,  when  written  or  spoken  of  another, 
are  actioHable>  or  Uie  subject  of  an  indict 
meni,*  leaves  no  more  latitude  ta  a  oouri  sit- 
ting in  judgment  on  the  record,  Ihao  a  ques^ 
tion  of  title  does  \sk  a  special'  verdict  in  eject* 
meat. 

But  I  beseech  yourlordsihh>  to  consider,  by 
what,  rule  the  legality  or  illegality  of  ^s 
Dialogue  is  to  be  decided  by  uc  C^wrt  as  « 
I  t 


1007] 


Proceedings  agatnatke  Dean  of  St,  Aiapk^    [1008 


questioti  of  law  upon  the  record. — ^Mr.  Bear- 
croft  has  admitted  in  the  most  uieqniTocal 
terms  (wbit  indeed  it  was  impossible  for  him 
to  deny),  that  every  part  of  it,  when  viewed 
in  the  abstract,  was  leg^l ;  but  he  says,  there 
is  a  great  distinction  to  be  taken  between 
speci&tion  and  exhortation,  and  that  it  is 
this  latter  which  makes  it  a  libel. — ^I  readily 
zccede  to  the  truth  of  the  observation ;  but 
liow  your  lordship  is  to  determine  that  dif- 
ference as  a  question  of  law,  is  past  my  com- 
prehension : — for  if  the  Dialogue  in  its  phrase 
and  composition  be  general,  and  its  libellous 
tendency  arises  from  the  purpose  of  the 
writer,  to  raise  discontent  by  a  seditious  ap- 
plication of  legal  doctrines, — that  purpose  is 
surely  a  question  of  fact  if  ever  there  was  ! 
one,  and  must  therefore  be  distinctly  averred  I 
in  the  indictment,  po  give  the  co^zance  of  I 
it  as  a  fact  to  the  jury,  without  which  no  libel 
can  possibly  appear  upon  the  record  :  this  is 
well  known  to  be  the  only  office  of  the  in- 
nuendo ;  because  the  judges  can  presume  no- 
thing, which  the  stnctest  rules  of  grammar 
do  not  warrant  them  to  collect  intrinsically 
from  the  writins  itself. 

Circumscribed  by  the  record,  your  lordship 
can  form  no  jud^ent  of  the  tendency  of  this 
Dialogue  to  excite  sedition  by  any  diing  but 
the  mere  words :  you  must  look  at  it  as  if  it 
were  an  old  manuscript  dug  out  of  the  ruins 
of  Herculaneum; — ^you  can  collect  nothing 
from  the  time  when,  or  the  circumstances 
under  which  it  was  published; — the  person 
b^  whom,  and  those  amongst  whom  it  was 
circulated ;  yet  these  may  render  a  paper  at 
one  time,  and  under  some  circumstances, 
dapeerously  wicked  and  seditious,  which  at 
anoUier  time,  and  under  different  circum- 
stances, nu^ht  be  innocent  and  highly  meri- 
torious.— ^If^puzzled  by  a  task  so'  inconsistent 
with  the  real  sense  and  spirit  of  jucticature, 
your  lordship  should  spurn  the  fetters  of  the 
record,  and,  judging  with  the  reason  rather 
than  the  infirmities  of  men,  should  take  into 
your  consideration  the  state  of  men's  minds 
on  the  subject  of  equal  representation  at  this 
moment,  and  the  great  dispoution  of  the  pre- 
sent times  to  revolution  in  government: — if, 
reading  the  record  with  these  impressions, 
your  lordships  should  be  led  to  a  judgment 
not  warranted  by  an  abstract  consideration  of 
the  record,  then,  besides  that  such  a  judg- 
ment would  be  founded  on  facts  not  in  evi- 
dence before  the  Court,  and  not  within  its 
jurisdiction  if  they  were, — ^let  me  farther  re- 
mind your  lordships,  that  even  if  those  ob- 
jections to  the  premises  were  removed,  the 
conclusion  would  be  no  conclusion  of  law : 
ypur  decision  on  the  subject  might  be  very 
sagacious  as  politicians,  as  morali^,  as  plu* 
losophers.  or  as  Ucensers  of  the  press,  but 
they  woyld  have  no  resembUnoe  to  the  judg- 
ments of  an  English  court  of  justice,  because 
it  could  have  no  warrant  from  the  act  of  your 
predecessors,  nor  afiord  any  precedent  to  your 
vuccesson* 


'  But  all  these  objections  are  perfectly  rs- 
moved,  when  the  seditious  tendency  of  a  pa- 
per is  considered  as  a  question  of  fiurt :  we 
are  then  relieved  from  we  absurdi^  of  legal 
discussion  separated  from  all  the  nets  from 
which  alone  the  law  can  arise ;  for  the  jury 
can  do  what  (as  I  observed  before)  your  lord- 
ships cannot  do  in  judging  by  the  record  ;— 
they  can  examine  by  evidence  all  those  cir- 
cumstances that  tend  to  estaUish  the  sedi- 
tious tendency  of  the  paper,  from  which  the 
Court  is  shut  out: — ^ihey  may  know  them- 
selves, or  it  may  be  proved  before  them,  that 
it  has  excited  sedition  already : — they  may 
collect  from  witnesses  that  it  has  been  widel^ 
circulated,  and  seditiously  understood :  <^,  if 
the  prosecution  (as  is  wisest)  precedes  these 
consequences,  and  the  reasoning  must  be  i 
priori,  surely  gentlemen  living  in  the  coirotiy 
are  much  better  judges  than  your  lordship, 
what  has  or  has  not  a  tendency  to  disturb  the 
neighbourhood  in  which  they  live,  and  that 
very  neighbourhood  is  the  forum  of  criminal 
trial. 

If  they  know  tha^  the  subject  of  the  paper 
is  the  topic  that  agitates  the  country  around 
them : — if  they  see  danger  in  that  agitation, 
and  have  reason  to  think  that  the  publisher 
must  have  intended  it :  they  say  he  is  guilty. 
-^If,  on  the  other  hand,  they  consider  the 
paper  to  be  legal,  and  ealightened  in  piinci- 
ple ; — ^likeljT  to  promote  a  spirit  of  activitr 
and  liberty  in  tinies  when  tlie  activity  of  such 
a  spirit  is  essential  to  the  public  safety,  and 
have  reason  to  believe  it  to  be  written  and 
published  in  that  spirit,  they  say,  as  they 
ought  to  do,  that  the  writer  or  the  publisher 
is  not  guilty. — Whereas  your  lordships'  judg- 
ment upon  the  language  of  the  record  must 
ever  be  in  the  pure  abstract; — operating 
blindly  and  indiscriminately  upon  aiJ  times, 
circumstances,  and  intentions  ;-*making  no 
distinction  between  the  glorious  attempts  of 
a  Sidney  or  a  Russell,  struggling  against  the 
terrors  of  despotism  under  the  Stuarts,  and 
those  desperate  adventurers  of  the  year  ]74^» 
who  libelled  the  person,  and  excited  .rebel- 
lion against  the  mild  and  gracious  govom- 
ment,  of  our  late  excellent  sovereign  kii^ 
George  the  second. 

My  lord,  if  the  independent  gentlemen  of 
England  aore  thus  better  qualified  to  decide 
from  cause  of  knowledge,  it  is  no  offence  to 
the  Court  to  say,  that  they  are  fiiU  as  likely 
to  decide  with  impartial  justice  as  judges  ap- 
pointed by  the  ciown.— Your  lordships  haw 
out  a  life  mterest  in  the  pubhc  property,  but 
they  have  an  inhcnritance  in  it  for  their  chil- 
dren. Their  landed  property  depends  upon 
the  sepirity  of  the  eovemment,  and  no  mm 
who  wantonly  attacks  it  can  hope  or  expect 
to  escape  from  the  selfish  lenity  of  » j*"y/^ 
On  the  first  principle  of  humian  action  thg 
must  leaA  heavily  against  him.— It  is  omy 
when  the  pride  of  Englishmen  is  insulted  by 
such  doctrines  as  I  am  opposing  to  da]r,  thftt 
they  may  be  betrayed  into  a  verdict  dcUvesui$ 


1009] 


for  a  Seditious  lAbet* 


A.  D.  1783.  ^ 


[lOIO 


the  guilty,  ratiier  than  surrender  the  riglits 
by  which  alone  innocence  in  the  day  of  danger 
can  be  protected. 

I  venture  therefore  to  say,  in  support  of 
one  of  my  original  propositions,  that  where  a 
writing  indicted  as  a  lihel,  neither  contains, 
nor  is  averred  by  the  indictment  to  contain, 
any  slander  of  an  individual,  so  as  to  fall 
within  those  rules  of  law  which  protect  per- 
sonal reputation,  but  whose  criminality  is 
charged  to  consist  (as  in  the  present  instance) 
in  its  tendency  to  stir  up  general  discontent, 
that  the  trial  of  such  an  mdictmcnt  neither 
involves,  nor  can  in  its  obvious  nature  in- 
volve, any  abstract  auesiion  of  law  for  the 
judgment  of  a  court,  but  must  wholly  depend 
upon  the  judgment  of  the  jury  on  the  ten- 
dency of  the  writing  itself,  to  produce  such 
consequences,  when  connected  with  all  the 
circumstances  which  attended  its  publication. 

It  is  unnecessary  to  push  this  part  of  the 
argument  farther,  because  I  have  heard  no- 
thmg  from  the  bar  against  the  position  which 
it  maintains  -.  none  of  the  gentlemen  have,  to 
xny  recollection,  given  the  Court  any  one  sin- 
gle reason,  good  or  bad,  why  the  tendency  oi 
a  paper  to  stir  up  discontent  against  govern- 
ment, separated  from  all  the  circumstances 
which  are  ever  shut  out  from  the  record,  ought 
to  be  considered  as  an  abstract  question  of  law  -. 
they  have  not  told  us  where  we  are  to  find 
an^  matter  in  the  books  to  enable  us  to  argue 
such  questions  before  the  Court ;  or  where 
your  lordships  yoiirselves  are  to  find  a  rule  for 
your  judgments  on  such  subjects. — I  confess 
that  to  me  it  looks  more  like  legislation,  or 
arbitrary  power,  than  English  judicature,  if 
the  Court  can  say,  This  is  a  criminal  writing, 
not  because  we  know  that  miscliief  was  in- 
tended by  its  author,  or  is  even  contained  in 
itself^  but  because  fools  believing  the  one  and 
the  other  may  do  mischief  in  their  folly. — 
The  suppression  of  such  writings  under  parti- 
cular circumstances  may  be  wise  pohcy  in  a 
state,  but  upon  what  principle  it  can  be  cri- 
minal law  in  England  to  be  settled  in  the  ab- 
stract by  judges,  1  confess  with  humility,  that 
I  have  no  organs  to  understand. 

Mr.  Leycester  felt  the  difficulty  of  main- 
taining such  a  proposition  by  any  argument 
of  law,  and  therefore  had  recourse  .to  an  ar- 
gument of  fact.    *  If,'  says  my  learned  friend^ 

*  what  is  or^  is  not  a  seditious  libel,  be  not  a 

*  auestion  of  law  for  the  court,  but  of  fact  for 

*  tne  jury,  upop  what  principle  do  defendants 

*  found  guilty  of  such  libels  by  a  general  ver- 

*  dicty  defeat  the  judgment  for  error  on  the 

*  record :  and  what  is  still  more  in  point,  upon 
'  what  principle  does  Mr.  Erskine  himself,  if 
'  be  fails  in  his  present  motion,  mean  to  ask 

*  voUr  lordships  to  arrest  this  very  jadnhent 

*  by  savine  that  the  Dialogue  is  npt  a  libel  ?' 

My  lord,  the  observation  is  veiy  ingenious, 
and  God  knows  the  ar^ment  requires  that  it 
should ; — but  it  is  nothing  more. — The  arrest 
of  iudgment  which  follows  after  a  verdict  of 
guuty  -for  publishing  a  writing,  which  on  ia- 

VOL.  XXI. 


spection  of  the  record  exhibits  to  the  court  no 
specific  offence  against  the  law,  is  no  im- 
peachment of  my  doctrine. — ^I  never  denied 
such  a  jurisdiction  to  the  court. — My  position 
is,  that  no  man  shall  be  punished  for  the  cri- 
minal breach. of  any  law,  until  a  jury  of  his 
equals  have  pronounced  him  guilty  in  mind 
as  well  as  in  act.  Actus  non  facit  reum  nisi 
mens  sit  rea. 

But  I  never  asserted  that  a  jury  had  the  *4 
power  to  make  crihiinal  law  as  well  as  to  ad- . 
minister  it ;  and  therefore  it  is  clear  that  they 
cannot  deliver  over  a  man  to  punishment  if  it 
appears  by  the  record  of  his  Sensation,  which 
it  IS  the  office  of  judicature  to  examine,  that 
he  has  not  offended  against  any  positive  law ; 
because,  however  criminal  he  may  have  been 
in  his  disposition,  which  is  a  fact  established 
bv  the  verdict,  yet  statute  and  precedents  call 
alone  decide  wh|it  is  by  law  an  mdictabi& 
ofiTence. 

If,  for  instance,  a  man  were  charged  by  an 
indictment  with  having  held  a  discourse  in 
words  defamatory,  and  were  foimd  guilty  by 
the  jury,  it  is  evident  that  it  is  the  province  of 
the  court  to  arrest  that  judgment;  because 
thoush  the  jury  have  found  that  he  spoke  the 
words  as  laid  in  the  indictment,  with  the  ma- 
licioys  intention  charged  upon  him,  which 
th^,  and  they  only,  could  find ;  yet  as  the 
words  are  not  punislpble  by  indictment,  as* 
when  committea  to  writing,  the  court  could 
not  pronounce  judgment;  the  declaration  of 
the  jury,  that  the  defendant  was  guilty  in 
manner  and  form  as  accused,  could  evidently 
never  warrant  a  judgment,  if  the  accusation 
itself  con taijied  no  charge  of  an  ofience  ag'^iinst- 
the  law. 

In  the  same  maimer,  if  a  butcher  were  in- 
dicted for  privately  putting  a  sheep  to  cause- 
less and  unnecessary  torture  in  the  exercise  of 
his  trade,  but  not  in  public  view,  so  as  to  be 
productive  of  evil  example,  and  the  jury  should'* 
find  him  guilty,  1  am  afraid  that  no  judg- 
ment could  follow;  because,  tlioiigh  done 
malo  animo,  yet  neither  statute  nor  precedent 
have  perhaps  determined  it  to  be  an  indict- 
able offences; — it  would  be  difficult  to  draw 
the  line.  An  indictment  will  not  lie  for^every 
inhuman  neglect  of  the  sufferinars  of  the 
smallest  innocent  ammals  which  Providence 
has  subjected  to  us. 

"  Yet  Ibc  poor  beetle  which  we  tread  upon. 
In  corporal  suffering  feiels  a  pang  tut  great 
As  when  a  giant  dies." 

A  thousand  other  instances  mi(;ht  be 
brought  of  acts  base  and  immoral,  and  preju- 
dicial, in  their  consequences,  which  are  not 
yet  indictable  by  law. 

In  the  case  of  the  King  against  Brewer,  in  . 
Cowper's  Reports,  it  was  held  that  knovoingly 
exposing  to  sale  and  selling  gold  under  sterl- 
ing for  standard  gold,  is  not  indictable ;  be- 
cause the  act  refers  to  goldsmiths  only,  and 
private  cheating  is  not  a  common-^law  offence. 
— ^Ilere  too  the  declanitioii  of  the  jury  that 

3  T 


lOI  1]  2S  GBQRGE  III.    Procee^ngi  agMma  (ke  Dean  of  St.  Ataph,    [lOIf 


^e  4efendapt  is  guilty  ia  ipaiuier  and  form  as 
apcused,  does  not  change  the  nature  Qf  the 
9€cusation :  the  verdict  doi^  not  ^  iMt^ond 
the  charge ;  and  if  the  charge  be  mvahd  in 
I4W,  the  verdict  must  lie  invalid  also,  AU 
^hese  cases  therefore,  and  many  similar  ones 
iji^bich  might  be  put,  are  clearly  consistent 
with  my  princifde;  I  do  nqtseek  to  erect 
jurors  into  legislators  or  judges :  there 
mu3t  be  a  rute  of  action  ia  every  society 
vl^h  it  is  the  duty  of  the  legislature  t«i 
create,  and  of  judicature  to  eipound  when 
created.— I  only  support  their  right  to  deter- 
mine guilt  or  innocence  where  the  crime 
charged  is  blended  by  the  general  issue  with 
the  intention  of  the  crimmal;  more  espe- 
cially when  the  ouali^  of  the  act  itself  even 
independent  of  that  intention,  is  not  measur- 
able by  ai^y  precise  principle  or  precedent  of 
]^w,  but  ia  maeperably  connected  with  the  time 
when,  the  place  where,  and  the  circumstances 
iinder  which,  tl^e  defendant  ^cted. 

My  lord,  in  considering  libela  of  this  nature 
^&  opposed  to  slander  on  individuals  to  be 
mere  question&of  ^ict»  or  at  all  events  to  con- 
tain matter  &t  for  the  determination  of  the 
jury ;  I  am  supported  not  only  by  the  general 
pir^ctice  of  courts,  butevenofthoee  very  prae- 
tors tl^emaelves,  who  ia  proaeeuting  for  the 
<;roj¥n.have  ipaintained  the  contrary  doctrine. 

Your  lordships  will,  I  am  persuaded,  a^hnit 
tliat  the  general  practice  of  4hc  profession,  more 
especially  of  the  very  heads  ol  it,  prosecuting 
V>o  for  the  public,  is  strong  evidence  of  the 
hw.  Attornejr  Generals  have  seldom  enter- 
tained such  a^loi»y  of  the  king's  judges  in 
ilate  prosecutions,  as  to  lead  th^m  to  make 
presents  of  jurisdiction  to  juries,  which  did 
not  bekmg  to  them  of  right  by  the  constitu- 
iion  of  the  country. — Neither  ean  it  be  sup- 
posed,  that  men  ia  high  office  and  of  great 
e.xperience,  should  in  ever};  instance,  though 
djifering  frpm  each  other  ia  temper,  charac- 
ter, and  talents,  uniformly  fall  into  the  same 
i^bsurdkty  of  dc;:laiming  to  juries  upoa  topies 
tptally  irrelev^tyWhen  no  such  iacoasiflleDcy 
is  found  to  dis^gure  the  professional  conduct 
u/t  tlie  same  mea  in  aether  cases. — ^Yel  I  may 
^ppeal  to  your  lordships'  recoUeoyon,  with- 
out having  recourse  to  the  Slate  Trialsk  whe- 
tjber  upon  every  ptoseoution  for  a  seditious 
libel  within  living  memory,  the  Attem^y  Ge- 
neral has  not  umformly  stated  such  writings 
at  length  to  the  Jury,  jiointed  out  their  sedi- 
tious tendency  which  rendered  tt^em  crMninal, 
and  exerted  all  his  powers  to  convince  them 


Quality  of  the  paper  which  rwaed  the  legil  ia* 
tereace  of  gunt  a^sinst  tho  defendant,  wis 
matter  for  the  court  ?  No,  my  lord ;  bs  wat 
41  greajt  length  into  its  daae^ous  m  nenii- 
cjous  tendency,  simI  appli^  himself  wita  skill 
and  al^ility  to  the  understanding^  sad  the  ooa* 
sciences  of  the  jurors.  This  iastaace  is  ia 
itself  decisive  of  his  opimoQ:  that  great  isa« 
gistr^te  could  not  have  acted  .thus  uj^n  tk« 
principle  contended  for  toHd^;^h«  Qflm 
ws^  an  idle  decbumer;--close  and  maaculise 
argument  is  the  c)iaracteristic  ol  his  uadnv 
standiag. 

Ther  chanwrter  and  talents  of  the  late  liftd 
Chief  Justice  De  Grey,  no  less  intillc  lae  to 
iafet  his  opinion  8rom  his  uniform  coaduct-*-  * 
In  sdl  such  prosecutions  while  he  was  iaofficf, 
he  hekl  the  same  languue  to  juries;  and 
nartioularly  in  the  case  or  the  King  anina^ 
WoodfalC  to  us$  $h€  trpremimof  a  oMnUi 
wrUer  on  th§  otcusitm,  *"  he  toitund  bis  fr> 
'  cullies  for  more  than  two  hours,  to  coBvioos 
'  them  that  Junius's  letter  was  a  libel.'" 

The  opiaioBS  of  another  crown  lawyer,  vba 
has  since  passed  through  the  first  offiots  cl 
the  law,  aad  filled  them  with  the  highest  vi« 
nutation,  I  am  not  driven  to  collect  alosc 
m>m  his  language  as  an  Attoroey  Geoenl; 
because  he  carrira  them  with  him  to  the  seat 
of  justice. — ^Yet  one  case  is  too  reaiarksblets 
be  omitted. 

hofd  Camden  prosecuting  Br.  ShebbesN^ 
told  the  jury  that  he  did  not  desire  th^  vw* 
diet  upoa  an^  other  principle^  than  their  lo- 
leom  conviction  of  the  trutn  of  the  infonns* 
tion,  which  charged  the  defendant  with  s 
wicked  design,  to  alienate  the  hearts  of  lbs 
sulyeds  of  this  country  from  their  king  upoa 
the  throne. 

To  ooipplete  the  account  i  my  leaiaii 
friend  Mr.  BearcroA,  though  hirt  not  kast  ia 
favour,  upon  this  very  occasion,  spoke  sbovt 
an  hour  to  the  jurvat  Shrewsbury,  to  csa« 
vinoe  them  of  the  libeUous  tendency  of  the 
tikdogue,  whkh  soon  afWrwavds  the  leaian 
jud^  desired  them  wliolly  to  dismiss  fiwa 
their  oonsid(»ration,  as  matter  with  which  ^5 
had  no  concern.— The  real  feet  i%  thattbs 
doctrine  is  too  ahsurd  to  be  acted  u|ifiB;-«toO 
•distorted  in  pnndple,  to  admit  of  coasisteacv 
ui  practice  ;>-^it  is  contrabaad  in  law,  and  on 
qmy  he  amug^led  by  those  who  iatiocbiGe  it: 
-r-it  require  oreat  talents  aad  graal  addosM 
to  hide  Its  defermity  :->in  vulgsr  hands  it  hs* 

nes  contemptible. 

Having  supported  the  rights  of  juries^  wf 


of  their  iUegality,  as  the  very  point  on  which  ,  tlie  uniform  practice  of  cvowa  hmrs^  Wl  ^ 


their  verdict  for  tl^  ciown  was  to  be  founded. 
On  the-trial  of  Mr.  Horne,  fojr  publislunfl 
an  advertisement  in  favour  of  tKe  widows  (? 
those  American  subjects  who  had  beea  mur- 
4fited  by  the  king's  trooftt  i^t  Lexington,*  did 
the  present  OhanceUor,  then  Attorney  Geao- 
ral,  oqnms  himbelfwith  saying  that  he  hs4 
Uro^  the  pmhbcatioa,  sod  that  the  crimiBal 

*  l|iit^oQMsiaUu»€UiMtwa.Yfl|.li^>ttl. 


i 


now  examine  the  questioa  of  autnoiit^  aid 
see  how  this  court  itself,  and  its  judges,  hs?e 
acted  upon  trials  fer  lihek  in  fenner  tiM; 
for,  aocordiae  to  hwd  Raymoad.  in  Fiaokaa'^ 
case(as  cited  by  Mr.  JwsUoeBuikr,  nfrShi^ 
bury),  the  ^tnciple  i  am  supporting  ba^  " 
seemsy  heen-01%  broached  about  the  yssr 
1731,  b(^some  men  of  party  spirit,  apd  thea 

too  for  the  very  first  time. 
Id^y  lord|  sudi  an  observatiim  ia  the  mwli 


lOIS] 


fir  ft  Bif^um  LiheU 


A.  D.  1783. 


[lOU 


of  lord  lUymond,  proves  how  daogerous  it  is 
to  take  up  as  doctrine  every  thing  flung  but 
at  Nui  Prius  ;  above  all,  upon  sut^ects  which 
engage  the  passions  and'  interests  of  govern^ 
tD«Dt. — The  mo^  solemn  and  important 
trials  with  which  History  makes  us  acquainted^ 
discussed  too  at  the  bar  of  this  courts  when 
filled  with  judges  the  most  devoted  to  the 
crown,  afibrd  the  most  decisive  contradic*- 
tion  to  such  an  unfounded  and  unguarded  a»> 
sertion. 

In  the  ikmous  case  of  the  Seven  Bbhop», 
the  question  of  libel  or  no  libel  was  held  un*- 
animously  by  the  court  of  King's-bench  try^ 
ing  the  cause  at  the  bar,  to  be  matter  for  the 
consideration  and  determination  of  the  jury ; 
.and  the  bishops'  petition  to  the  king,  which 
was  the  subject  ot  the  infonnation,  was  ac>> 
cordingly  delivered  to  them,  when  they  with- 
drew to  consider  of  their  verdict. 

Thinking  this  case  decisive,  I  cited  it  at  the 
trial,  and  the  answer  it  received  from  Mr. 
Bearcrofl  was,  that  it  had  no  relation  to  the 
point  in  dispute  between  us,  for  that  the 
Dishops  were  acquitted  not  uj>on  the  question 
of  libel,  but  because  the  delivery  of  tne  pet>- 
tion'to  the  king  was  held  to  be  no  publication. 

I  was  not  a  little  surprised  at  this  state- 
talent,  but  my  tisrn  of  speaking  was  then  past ; 
finrtunately  to-day  it  is  my  pQvilege  to  speak 
last,  and  I  have  now  lying  before  me  the 
fifth  volume  of  the  State  Trials,  where  the 
case  of  the  Bishops  is  printed,  aad  where  H 
appears  that  the  publication  was  expressly 
|>roved : — that  nothing  turned  upon  it  in  tlie 
ludgment  of  the  Court,->and  that  the  charge 
turned  wholly  upon  the  question  of  liM, 
which  was  expressly  left  to  the  jury  by  every 
one  of  the  judges. — Lord  chief-justice  Wright, 
in  summins  ud  the  evidence,  told  them  that 
a  question  naa  at  first  arisen  about  the  publi- 
cation, it  being  insisted  on,  that  the  delivery 
of  the  petition  to  the  king  had  not  been 
proved ;  that  the  Court  was  of  the  same  opi- 
nion, and  that  he  was  just  going  to  have  di- 
rected them  to  find  the  Bishops  not  guilty, 
when  in  came  my  Lord  President  (ntoh  wH 
^wUnemn  mere  no  doubt  aiwa^s  at  hand  when 
wfantedjf  who  proved  the  delivery  to  his  ma- 
jesty. *  Therefore,'  continued  the  Chief  Jus- 
tice, *  if^ou  believe  it  was  the  same  petition, 
-^  it  is  a  publication  sufficient,  and  we  niust 

<  therefore  comt  to  inquire  whether  it  be  a 
f  Ubel.' 

He  then  gave  his  reasons  for  thinking  it 
within  the  case  de  libellU  famom,  and  con- 
eluded  hy  say'mg  to  the  JU17,  <  In  short,  I 
'  must  give  you  my  opinion :  I  do  take  it  to 
'  a  libel ;  if  my  brothers  have  any  thhic  to 

<  lay' to  it,  I  suppose  they  will  deliver  their 
*  opinion.'  Wdat  opbiion  ? — not  that  the  jury 
tea  no  jurisdiction  to  judge  of  the  matter, 
lait  an  opinion  for  the  express  purpose  of 
enabling  them  to  give  that  judgment,  which 
the  law  required  at  their  hands. 

Mr.  *  Justice  UoUoway  then  followed^  the 
.Chief  Justice;  and  so  pointedly  was  the  quea- 


tion  of  libel  or  no  libel*  and  not  the  publicar 
tion,  the  only  matter  which  remained  in 
doubt,  and  which  the  jury,  witli  the  assistance 
of  the  Court,  were  to  decide  upon;  thiU  wiien 
the  learned  judge  went  into  the  facts  which 
had  been  in  evioence*  the  Chief  Justice  said 
to  him,  '  Look  you ;  by  the  way,  brother,  I 
'  did  not  ask  you  to  sum  up  the  evidence, 

*  but  only  to  deliver  your  opinion  to  the  jUry, 
'whether  it  be  a  libel  or  no.'  The  Chief  Jus* 
tice*s  retnark,  though  it  proves  my  position, 
was,  however,  very  unnecessary ;  for  but  a 
moment  before^  Mr.  Justice  Holioway  had  de*- 
clare^  he  did  not  think  it  was  aJibel,  but  ad- 
dressmg  himself  to  the  jury  had  said,  *  It  k 

*  /^  to  yoHf  gentlemen,* 

Mr.  Justice  Powell,  who  likewise  gave  his 
opinion  that  it  was  no  fibel^  said  to  the  jury ^ 

*  But  the  meBtterefit  u  h^ore  youy  and  I  leave 
'  the  \9Sae  of  it  to  Goa  oni  yout  omn  con- 

*  iciences  t^  and  so  little  was  it  in  idea  of  any 
one  of  the  Court,  that  the  jury  ou^ht  to  found 
their  verdict  solely  upon  the  evioence  of  the 
publication,  wtthotit  attending  to  thecrimi- 
nahty  or  innocence  of  the  petition,  that  thb 
Chief  Justice  himself  consented,  on  their 
withdrawing  frotn  the  bar,  that  they  should 
carry  with  them  all  the  materials  for  coming 
to  a  judgment  as  comprehensive  as  the  charj^e; 
and  indeed  expressly  directed  that  the  intor^ 
mation, — the  libel^ — ^the>  declarations  under 
the  ereat'seid, — and  even  the  Statute*book, 
sheuTd  be  delivered  to  them. 

The  happv  issue  of  this  memorable  tf'ial,  in 
the  acquittal  of  the  bishepft  by  the  iury,  exer- 
cising jurisdiction  over  the  whole  charge, 
freely  admitted  to  them  as  legal  even  by  king 
James's  ji^ges,  is  admitted  by  two  of  the 
gentlemen  to  have  prepared  and  forwarded 
uie  glorious  «ra  of  the  Revolution.  Mr. 
Bower,  in  particular,  spoke  with  singular  en- 
thusiasm concemins  this-  verdict,  cli6o^ing 
(for  reasons  sufficiently  obvious)  to  ascribe  it 
to  a  special  miracle  wrought  for  the  safett  of 
the  nation,  rather  than  to  the  right  lodged 
in  the  jury  to  save  it  by  its  laws  and  consti- 
tution.* 

My  learned  friend,  finding  his  argument 
like  nothing  upon  the  earth,  was  obliged  to 
ascend  into  heaven  to  support  it-.^^naving 
admitted  that  the  jury  not  only  acted  like  just 
men  towards  the  bishops,  but  as  patriot  citi- 
zens towards  their  country,  imd  Jiot  being 
able,  without  the  sutrender  of  his  whole  argu- 
ment, to  allow  either  their  public  spirit  or 
their  private  justice  to  have  oeen  consonant 
to  the  laws,  he  is  driven  to  make  them  the 
instruments  of  divine .  Providence  to  bring 
good  out  of  evil,  and  holds  them  up  as  men 
inspired  by  Gvod  to  perjure  themselves  in  the 
administration  of  justice,  in  order,  bv  the  by, 
to  defeat  the  effects  at'  that  wretched  system 
of  judicature,  which  he  is  defending  to^ay 
as  the  censtitution.  of  England :  for  if  the 
king's  judges  could  have  decided  the  petition 
to  be  a  libe},  the  Sttiarts  might  yet  have  been 
on  the  throne. 


1015]  28  GEORGE  UL    Proceedings  agdmi  the  Dean  ofSL  ilxopft,    [iai6 


My  lord,  this  is  the  argument  of  a  priest, 
not  of  a  lawyer :  and  even  if  faith  and  not  law 
were  to  govern  the  question,  I  should  be  as 
far  from  subscribing  to  it  as  a  religious  opi- 
nion. 

No  man  believes  more  firmly  than  I  do 
that  God  governs  the  whole  universe  by  the 
gracious  dispensations  of  his  providence,  and 
that  all  the  nations  of  the  earth  rise  and  fall 
at  his  command:  but  then  this  wonderful 
system  is  earned  on  by  the  natural^  though  to 
us  the  often  hidden,  relation  between  effects 
and  causes,  which  wisdom  adjusted  from  the 
beginning,  and  which  foreknowledge  i^  the 
•same  lime  rendered  sufficient,  without  dis- 
turbing either  the  laws  of  nature  or  of  civil 
society. 

The  prosperity  and  greatness  of  empires 
ever  depended,  an(^  ever  must  depend,  upon 
the  use-  their  inhabitants  make  of  their  rea- 
son in  devising  wise  laws,  and  the  spirit 
and  virtue  with  which  they  watch  over  their 
just  execution :  and  it  is  impious  to  suppose, 
that  men,  who  have  maae  no  provision 
for  their  own  happiness  or  security  in  their 
attention  to  their  government,  are  to  be 
saved  by  the  interposition  of  Heaven  in  turn- 
ing the  hearts  ot  their  tyrants  to  protect 
them. 

But  if  every  case  in  which  judges  have  left 
the  (Question  of  libel  to  juries  m  opposition  to 
law,  IS  to  be  considered  as  a  miracle,  Eneland 
may  vie  Mrith  Palestine ;  and  lord  chief  jus- 
tice Holt  steps  next  into  view  as  an  apostle ; 
for  that  great  iudge,  inTutchin's  case,  left 
-the  question  of^^  libel  to  the  jury  in  the  most 
unambiguous  terms. — After  summing  up  the 
evidence  of  writing  and  publishing,  he  said 
to  them  as  follows : 
'  You  have  now  heard  the  evidence,  and 
you  are  to  consider  whether  Mr.  Tutchin  be 
guilty.  They  say  they  are  innocent  papers, 
and  no  libels ;  and  they  say  nothing  is  a 
libel  but  what  rejects  upon  some  particular 
person. — But  this  is  a  very  strange  doctrine,  to 
say,  it  is  not  a  libel  reflecting  on  the  govern- 
ment, endeavouring  to  possess  the  people 
that  the  government  is  mal-administered 
by  cornipt  persons,  that  are  employed  in 
such  or  such  stations  either  in  the  navy  or 
army. 

'  To  say  that  corrupt  officers  are  appointed 
to  administer  afikirs,  is  certainly  a  reflection 
on  the  government.  If  people  should  not 
be  called  to  account  for  possessing  the  peo- 
ple with  an  ill  opinion  of  the  government, 
no  government  can  subsist.  For  it  is  very 
necessary  for  all  governments  that  the  peo- 
ple should  have  a  good  opinion  of  it :  and 
nothing  can  be  worse  to  any  government, 
than  to  endeavour  to  procure  animosities, 
as  to  the  management  of  it ;  this  has  been 
always  looked  upon  as  a  crime,  and  no  go- 
vernment can  be  safe  without  it  be  punish- 
ed.' 

Having  made  these  observations,  did  the 
Chief  Justice  toil  the  jury,  that  whether  the 


publication  in  question  fell  within  that  prin- 
ciple so  as  to  be  a  libel  on  government,  was 
a  matter  of  law  for  the  Court,  with  which 
they  had  no  concern? — Quite  the  contnuy: 
he  considered  the  seditiou^  tendency  of  the 
paper  as  a  question  for  their  sole  determina- 
tion, saying  to  them, 
'  Now  you  are  to  consider,  whether  these 

*  words  I  ^have  read  to  vou,  do  not  tend  to  be- 
'  get  an  ill  opinion  of^^*  the  administration  of 
'  Uie  government :  to  tell  us,  that  those  that 
'  are  employed  know  nothing  of  the  matter, 
'  and  those  that  do  know  are  not  emploved. 
'  Men  are  not  adapted  to  offices,  but  offices 

*  to  men,  out  of  a  particular  regard  to  their 

*  interest,  and  not  to  their  fitness  for  ttfe 
^  places.    This  is  the  purport  of  these  pa- 

*  pers.' 

In  citing  the  words  of  judges  in  judicature 
I  have  a  right  to  suppose  their  discourse  to 
be  pertinent  and  relevant,  and  that  wbeo  they 
state  the  defendant's  answer  to  the  charge, 
and  make  remarks  on  it,  they  mean  that  me 
jury  should  e.\ercise  a  judgment  under  their 
direction :  this  is  the  practice  we  must  cer- 
tainly impute  to  lord  Holt,  if  we  do  him  the 
justice  to  suppose  that  he  meant  to  convey 
the  sentiments  which  he  expressed. — So  that 
when  we  come  to  sum  up  this  case,  I  do  not 
find  myself  so  far  behind  the  learned  gentle- 
man even  in  point  of  express  authority ;  put- 
ting all  reason,  and  the  analogies  of  law 
which  unite  to  support  me,  wholly  out  of  the 
question. 

There  is  court  of  KineVbench  a^nst  court 
ofKingVbench ; — chief  justice  Wnght  aganisl 
chief  justice  Lee; — and  lord  Holt  against  lord 
Raymond :  as  to  living  authorities,  it  would 
be  invidious  to  class  then^ ;  but  it  is  a  point 
on  which  I  am  satisfied  myself,  and  on  whidi 
the  world  will  be  satisfied  likewise  if  ever  it 
comes  to  be  a  quesUon. 

But  even  if  I  should  be  mistaken  in  thst 
particular,  I  cannot  consent  implicitly  to  re- 
•ceive  any  doctrine  as  the  law  of  England, 
though  pronotmced  to  be  such  by  magistrates 
the  most  respectable,  if  I  find  it  to  be  m  direct 
violation  of  tne  very  first  principles  of  English 
judicature.— The  great  jurisdicticma  of  the 
country  are  unalterable  except  by  parliamiat, 
and,  until  they  are  changed  oy  that  authority, 
they  ought  to  remain  sacred ; — the  judges 
have  no  powerover  them. — ^What  parliamen- 
tary abridgment  has  been  made  upon  the 
rights  of  juries  since  the  trial  of  the  Bishow, 
or  since  Tutchin's  case,  when  they  were  fiill) 
recognised  by  this  Court? — None.  LordRsy- 
mond  and  lord  chief  justice  Lee  ought  thw; 
fore  to  have  looked  to  their  predecessors  w 
the  law,  instead  of  setting  up  a  new  one  wr 
their  successors. 

But  supposing  the  Court  should  deny  the 
legality  or  all  these  propositions,  or,  atlmiltioK 
their  legality,  should  resist  the  conclusions! 
have  drawn  from  them ;  then  I  have  recourse 
to  my  last  proposition,  in  which  I  am  sup- 
ported even  by  all  those  authorities,  on  which 


1017] 


for  a  Seditious  UheL 


the  learned  judge  relies  for  the  doctrines  con- 
tained in  his  charge ;  to  wit, 

*  That  in  all  cases  where  the  mischievous 
^  intention,  which  is  agreed  to  be  the  essence 

*  of  the  crime,  cannot  oe  collected  by  simple 

*  inference  from  the  fact  charged,  because  the 
'  defendant  goes  into  evidence  to  rebut  such 

*  inference,  the  intention  becomes  then  a  pure 

*  unmixed  question  of  fact,  for  the  considera^ 

*  tion  of  the  jury.' 

I  said  th'e  authorities  of  the  King  against 
Woodfall  and  Almon  were  with  me.  In  the 
£rst,  which  is  reported  in  5th  Qurrow,  your 
lordship  expressed  ^yourself  thus: — *  Where 
■*  an  act,  in  itself  indifferent,  becomes  crimi- 
'  nal  when  done  with  a  particular  intent,  there 
^  the  intent  must  be  proved  and  found :— but 
'  where  the  act  is  itself  unlawful,  as  in  the 
^  case  of  a  libel,  the  proof  of  justification  or 

*  excuse  lies  on  the  defendant:  and  in  failure 
'  thereqfy  the  law  implies  a  criminal  intent.* 
Most  luminously  expressed  to  convey  this 
sentiment,  viz.  that  wnen  a  man  publishes  a 
libel,  and  has  nothing  to  say  for  himself, — ^no 
explanation  or  exculpation, — a  criminal  in- 
tention need  not  be  proved : — I  freely  admit 
that  it  need  not ; — it  is  an  inference  of  com- 
mon sense,  not  of  law. — But  the  publication 
of  a  libel,  does  not  conclusively  show  crimi- 
nal intent,  but  is  only  an  implication  of  law, 
in  failure  of  the  defendant's  proof  Your 
lordship  immediately  afterwards  in  the  same 
case  explained  this  farther.    *  Inhere  may  be 

*  cases  where  the  publication  may  be  justified 

<  or  excused  as  lawfxil  or  innocent  ;  for  no 

^  FACT    WHICH    IS    NOT    CRIMINAL,   thoUgh   the 

'  paper  be  a  libel,  can  amount  to  such  a 
'  puDlication  of  which  a  defendant  oueht  to 
^  DC  found  guilty.'  But  no  question  of  that 
kind  arose  at  the  trial  (i.  e.  on  the  trial  of 
Woodfall). — ^Why? — Your  lordship  imme- 
diately explained  why—'  Because  the  defen- 

*  dant  coiled  no  witnesses  ;\ejipresaiiy  sayins, 
that  the  publication  of  a  libel  is  not  in  ttself 
a  crime,  unless  the  intent  be  criminal ;  ancl 
th|tt  it  is  not  merely  in  mitigation  of  punish- 
ment, but  that  such  a  publicatioa  does  not 
warrant  a  verdict  of  Guuty. 

In  the  case  of  the  King  against  Almon,  a 
magazine  containing  one  of  Junius's  Letters, 
was  sold  at  Almon's  shop;  and  there  was 
proof  of  that  sale  at  the  trial.  Mr.  Almon 
called  no  witnesses,  and  was  found  guilty. 
To  found  a  motion  for  a  new  trial,  an  amdavit 
was  offered  from  Mr.  Almon,  that  he  was  not 
privy  to  the  sale^Dor  knew  his  name  was  in- 
serted as  a  publisner ;  and  that  this  practice 
.of  booksellers  being  inserted  as  publishers  by 
their  correspondents  without  notice,  was  com- 
mon in  the  trade. 

Your  lordship  said,  '  Sale  of  a  book  in  a 

*  bookseller's  shop,  is  primA  facte  evidence  of 
'  publication  bjr  the  master,  and  the  publica- 

*  tion  of  a  libel  is  primA  facie  evidence  of  cri- 
^  minal  intent :  it  stands  good  till  answered 
'  by  the  defendant :    it  must  stand  till  con- 

<  M^cttd  or  explained ;  end  if  not  contra- 


A.  D.  1783.  [1018 

'  dieted^  ejcplained,  or  exculpated^ '  becomes 
'  tantamount  to  conclusive,  when  the  defendant 

*  calls  no  zeitnesses* 

Mr.  Justice  Aston  said,  '  PrimA  facie  evi-. 
'  dence  not  answered  is  sufficient  to  ground  a 
'  verdict  upon :   if  the  defendant  had  a  suffi- 

*  cient  excuse,  he  might  have  proved  it  at  the 

*  trial :  his  having  neglected  it  where  there' 
<  was  no  «irprise,  is  no  ground  for  a  new  one.' 
Mr.  Justice  Willes  and ^r.  Justice  Ashhurst 
agreed  upon  those  express  principles. 

These  cases  declare  the  law  beyond  all  con- 
troversy to  be,  that  publication,  even  of  a 
libel,  is  no  conclusive  proof  of  guilt,  but  onlv 
prima  facie  evidence  of  it  till  answered;  ana 
that  if^he  defendant  can  show  that  hisinten" 
tion  was  not  criminal,  he  completel^r  rebuts 
thfe  inference  arising  from  the  publication ; 
because,  though  it  remains  ttue,  that  he  pub- 
lished, yet,  according 'to  your  lordship's  ex- 
press words,  it  is  not  such  a  publication  of 
which  a  defendant  ought  to  be  found  guilty. 
Apply  Mr.  Justice  Buller's  summing  up,  to 
this  law,  and  it  does  not  require  even  a  legal 
apprehension  to  distinguish  the  repugnancy. 

The  advertisement  was  proved  to  convince , 
the  jury  of  the  dean's  motive  for  publishing ; 
— Mr.  Jones's  testimony  went  strongly  to  aid 
it ; — and  the  evidence  to .  character,  thoush 
not  sufficient  in  itself,  was  admissible  to  be 
thrown  into  the  scale. — But  not  only  no  part 
of  this  was  left  to  the  jurj,  but  the  whole  of  it 
was  expressly  removed  from  their  considera- 
tion, although,  in  the  cases  of  Woodfall  and 
Almon,  it  was  expressly  laid  down  to  be 
within  their  cognizance,  and  a  complete  an^ 
swcr  to  the  charge  if  satisfactory  to  the  minds 
of  the  jurors. 

In  support  of  the  learned  judge's  charge, 
there  can  be  therefore  but  the  two  arguments, 
which  I  stated  on  moving  for  the  rule : — either 
that  the  defendant's  evidence,  namely,  the  ad-" 
vertisement; — Mr.  Jones's  evidence  m  confir- 
mation of  i  ts  being  bon6Jide: — and  the  evidence 
to  character,  to  strengthen  that  construction, 
were  not  sufficient  proof  that  the  dean  be- 
fieved  the  publication  meritorious,  and  pub* 
lished  it  in  vindication  of  his  honest  intend 
tions :— or  el^.that,  even  admitting  it  to  es-r 
tablish  that  fact,  it  did  not  amount  to  sucK 
an  exculpation  as  to  be  evidence  on  Not 
Guilty,  so  as  to  warrant  a  verdict. — I  still 
give  the  learned  judge  the  choice  of  the  alter- 
native. 

As  to  the  first,  viz.  whether  it  showed  ho- 
nest intention  in  point  of  fact :  that  was  a 
question  for  the  jury.  If  the  learned  judge 
had  tiioueht  it  was  not  sufficient  evidence  to 
warrant  Uie  jury's  believing  that  the  dean's 
motives  were  such  as  he  had  declared  them ; 
I  conceive  he  should  have  given  his  opinion 
of  it  as  a  point  of  evidence,  and  left  it  there. 
— I  cannot  condescend  to  go  fiu^er ;  it  would 
be  ridiculous  to  argue  a  self-evident  proposi* 
tion. 

As  to  the  second,  viz.  that  even  if  the  jury 
had  believed  from  the  evidence^  that  the 


lOlD]  23  GEORGE  IIL     Proceedings  against  the  Dean  of  St.  Asaph,   [lOSO 


lean's  i&tentioa  was  whoUjr  innocent,  it  would 
not  hxv%  warranted  them  in  acquitting,  and 
therefore  should  not  have  hcen  iefi  to  them 
upon  Not  Guilty  ;-WAa^  argument  can  never 
li9  8UpDorted< — For,  if  the  jury  had  declared, 
<  We  find  that  the  dean  published  this  | 
^  pamphlet,  whether  a  hbel  or  not  we  do  tkot  -, 
bod:  and. we  find  farther,  that,  believing;  it 
in  his  oonscience  to  be  meritorious  and  m^^ 
nooent)  he,  bond  fide^  published  it  with  the 

Kreiixed  advertisement,  as  a  vindication  of 
is  character  from  the  reproach  of  seditious 
intentions,  and  not  to  excite  se(]ition  ;*  it  is 
m)iossible  to  say,  without  ridicule,  that  on 
such  *  special  verdict  the  Ck>urt  could  have 
pronounced  a  criminal  judgment. 

Then  why  was  the  consideration  of  that 
evidence,  by  which  those  facts  might  have 
been  found,  withdrawn  from  the  jury,  afler 
they  brought  in  a  verdict  Guilty  of  publi^inc 
iMhXi  which|  in  the  King  against  Woodfall, 
was  only  sua  not  to  neeative  the  criminal  in- 
tentioU)  because  the  defendant  called  no  wit- 
nesses ?— Why  did  the  learned  Judge  confine 
his  enquiries  to  the  innuendos,  and  finding 
.  ihem  agreed  to,  direct -the  epithet  of  Guilty, 
Without  asking  the  jury  if  th^  believed  the 
defendant's  evidence  to  rebut  tne  criminal  in- 
lerence? — Some  of  them  positively  meant  to 
negative  the  criminal  inference,  bv  adding 
the  word  oniy,  and  all  would  have  done  it,  if 
they  had  thought  themselves  at  liberty  to 
enter  upon  that  evidence^ — But  they  were 
told  expressly  that  they  bad  nothing  to  do 
with  the  consideration  of  that  evidence, 
which,  if  believed,  would  have  warranted 
that  verdict, — ^The  conclusion  is  evident; — if 
they  had  a  right  to  consider  it,  and  their  con- 
sid^tion  might  have  produced  such  a  ver- 
dict, and  •  if  such  a  verdict  would  have  been 
an  acquittal,  it  must  be  a  misdirection. 
,  <  But|'  sa^s  Mr.  Bower,  <  if  this  advertise- 
ment, prenxed  to  the  ptiblication,  by  which 
the  dean  professed  his  innocent  intention 
in  pubhshing  it,  should  have  been  left  to 
the  jury-  as  evidence  of  that  intention,  to 
found  an  acquittal  on,  even  taking  the  Dia- 
logue to  be  a  libel ;  no  man  could  ever  be 
convicted  of  publishing  any  thing,  however 
dangerous  t  tor  he  would  only  have  to  tack 
an  advertisement  to  it  by  waj  of  preface, 
professing  the  excellence  of  its  pnndples 
and  the  sincerity  of  his  motives,  and  his  de- 
fence would  be  complete.' 
My  lordf  I  never  contended  for  anr  iuch 
position.  If  a  man  of  education,  like  the 
dean,  were  to  publish  a  writing  so  palpably 
libellous^  that  ho  ignorance  or  misapprehen- 
sion imputable  to  such  a  person  could  }Kre- 
vent  his  discovering  the  mischievous  design 
of  the  author ;  no  jury  would  believe  su<^  an 
advertisement  to  be  bond  Jide,  and  would 
therefore  be  bound  in  conscience  to  reject  it, 
aa  if  it  had  no  existence :  tha  effect  of  such 
evidence  must  be  to  convince  the  jury  of  the 
defendant's  purity  of  miod^  and  must  there- 
fore depend  upon  the  nature  ^  the  writing 


itself,  and  all  the  circumstances  attending  its 
publication. 

If,  upon  reading  th^  paper  and  couHdering 
the  whole  of  the  evidence,  they  have  rietsOa 
to  think  that  the  defendant  did  not  believe  it 
to  be  illegal,  and  did  not  publ'vsh  it  with  \ht 
seditious  pucpose  charged  by  the  indicimeDt ; 
— he  is  not  guilty  upon  any  principle  or  wt- 
thocit^  of  law,  and  wonld  have  been  acquiUed 
even  m  t^e  Star  Chamber :  tor  it  was  held 
by  that  court  in  Lambe's  case,*  \h  the  eighth 

J^ear  of  king  James  the  first,,  as  reported  by 
ord  Coke, whothen  presided  in  it,'thateferj 
one  who  should  be  convicted  of  a  libel,  must 
be  the  writer  or  contriver,  or  a  malkiem  pal^ 
iisher^  kmming  it  to  be  a  libel.- 

This  Otoe  «i  Lambe  beii^of  too  high  Inh 
thority  to  be  opposed^  and  too  much  in  point 
to  b«  jMiSed  over,  Mr.  Bower  endeavours  to 
avoid  Its  foroe  hy  giving  it  a  new  coAstnidioB 
of  his  own :  he  says,  that  not  knowing  •  writ- 
ing to  be  a  libelj  in  the  sefiae  of  tbatctie, 
means,  not  knowmg  the  contents  of  the  thiqg 
published ;  as  by  con veviAg  papers  sealed  up, 
or  having  a  sermon  ana  a  uoel,  and  deliTe^ 
ing  one  by  mistake  for  the  other.«*In  such 
cases  he  aa^s,  ignormntia  facti  egcmd,  be- 
cause the  mind  (foes  not  go  with  the  set ;  wrf 
ignorantia  legit  non  egcusmi  t  and  therefore  if 
the  party  knows  th«  contents  of  the  paper 
which  he  puhliabes,  his  mind  (loes  with  the 
act  of  publication^  though  he  ooeft  not  M 
out  any  thifig  criminal,  and  he  is  bound  to 
abide  by  the  legal  oonsequences. 

This  is  to  make  criminality  depend  upon 
the  consciousness  of  an  act,  and  not  upon  the 
knowledge  of  its  qualitv,  which  would  involve 
lunatics  and  chiloren  m  all  the  penalties  of 
criminal  lawt*^for  whatever  thev  do  ia  at- 
tended with  consciousness,  though  their  oii- 
derstanding  does  not  reach  t6  the  codsciotti- 
ness  of  offence. 

The  publication  of  a  libel,  ndt  believing  it 
to  be  one  afler  having  read  it,  is  a  much  taofs 
favourable  case  than  publishing  it  unread  hj 
mistake  *.  the  one,  nine  times  in  ten,  is  ^^^^^ 
ble  aegtigsnoe,  which  is  no  excuse  at  &Ujftr 
a  man  cannot  throw  papers  about  the  worn 
without  reading  them,  and  aflerwaids  sarf  he 
did  not  know  Sieir  contc&U  were  crimmal: 
but  if  a  man  r»ds  a  packer,,  and  not  belieriia 
it  to  contain  any  thing  Seditious,  having  co- 
iected  nothmg  of  that  tendency  himselfr- 
publishes  it  among  his  neighbours  as  an  in- 
nocent and  useful  work,  he  cannot  be  copncl- 
ed  as  a  criminal  publisher.— How  he  is  tt 
convince  the  jury  that  his  paipose  wU  mno- 
cent,  though  ih»  thing  published  be  a  aW, 
must  depend  unOD  circumstances ;  uid  these 
ciifcumstances ne  may,  on  the ■^^'^'[^'^rj 
the  cases  ancient  jand  modem,  li^benNethe 
jury  inevktence;  because  if  he  can  «<■»» 
the  innocence  of  fab  mind,  he  negMives  the 
very  gist  a(  the  indictment. 

*  in  all  crimes;  says  lord  Hale  inhisrki» 

■■!>■■■■  .■■■■■  1%  I       ■■■     I  -  ■  ■  * 

«  90o, d9, b. i  Moer 8>3»S. C 


lt»l] 


^  a  Seditious  Lihd. 


A.  D.  178JL 


[lOS 


oftheCrowQy  ^  the  initntion  is  the  principal 

*  consideration ;  it  is  the  aiind  that  makes  the 

*  taking  of  another*^  goods  to  be  felony,  or  a 

*  bare  trespass  coily :  it  is  impossible  to  pre^ 

*  acfibe  all  the  circumstances  evidencing  a  fe« 
'  lonious  inteoty  or  the  contrary ;   but  the 

*  same  must  be  left  to  the  attentive  conside* 

<  ration  of  judge  and  jury ;    vhercin  the  best 

<  rule  is,  in  dubiisy  rauiei  to  incline  to  acquits 

*  tal  than  conviction.' 

la  the  same  work  he  says,  <  By  the  statute 

*  of  Philip  and  Mary,  touching  importation 
'  of  coin  counterfeit  of  foreign  money,  it  must, 
'  to  make  it  treason,  be  with  the  intent  to 

*  utter  and  make  |iayment  of  the  same ;   ^nd 

*  the  intent  in  this  case  may  be  tried  and 
^  found  by  circumstances  of  fact  by  words, 

<  letters,  ai\d  a  thousand  evidences  besides  the 
^  \me  doing  of  the  &ct/ 

This  principle  is  illustrated  by  frequent 
practice,  where  the  intention  is  found  by  the 
jury  as  a  feet  in  a  special  verdict.— It  occurred 
not  above  a  year  ago,  at  ^st  Grinslead,  on 
»n  indictment  for  burglary,  before  Mr.  Justice 
Aahhurat,  where  I  was  myself  peinsel  for  the 
prisoner.'^It  was  clear  upon  the  evidence 
that  he  had  broken  in^o  the  house  by  force  in 
the  night,  but  I  contended  that  it  appeared 
from  proof,  that  he  had  broken  and  entered 
with  9i\  intent  to  rescue  his  goods,  which  had 
been  seized  that  day  by  the  oiBcers  of  excise : 
which  rescue,  though  a  capital  felony  by  mo- 
dem statute,  was  but  a  trespass,  temp.  Henry 
Vin.  and  consequently  not  a  hurslary. 

Mr.  Justice  Ashhurst  saved  this  point  of 
]aw,  which  the  twelve  judges  afterwards  de* 
termined  for  the  prisoner;  hut,  in  order  to 
create  the  point  or  law,  it  was  necessary  that 
the  prisoner's  intention  should  be  ascertained 
as  a  fact ;  and  for  this  purpose,  the  learned 
judge  directed  the.  jury  to  tell  liim,  with  what 
mtentioB  they  found  that  the  orisoner  br^e 
and  entered  the  house,  which  tney  did  by  an- 
swering, '  To  rescue  his  goods  i*  which  ver- 


dict was  recorded. 

Ib  the  same  manner,  in  the  case  of  the 
S^in^  against  Pierce,  at  the  02d  Bailey,  the 
intention  was  found  by  the  jury  as  a  fact  in 
the  special  verdict.  The  prisoner  having 
hired  ahorse  and  afterwards  sold  him,  was 
indicted  for  folony ;  but  the  .judges  doul>tipg 
whether  it  was  more  than  a  nai»,  unless  he 
firiginally  hir^  him  intending  to  tell  him,  re- 
oeavnended  it  to  the  jury  to  find  a  special 
verdict^  comprehending  their  judgment  of  his 
intention,  from  the  evidence.  l|ere  the  qua- 
li^  ef  tke  act  depended  on  the  intention, 
which  intention  it  was  held  to  be  the  exchi- 
ttve  province  of  the  juir  to  determine,  before 
the  judges  coutd  give  the  act  any  legal  deno- 
uioatloB. 

My  lord^  I  am  ashajned  to  have  cited  so 
many  authorities  to  establish  the  first  ele- 
Bftcnts  of  the  law,  but  it  has  been  my  late  to 
find  them  disputed.  The  whole  mistake  arises 
^m  oonCounding  criminal  with  civil  cases.-r- 
if  a  prtB^r\  s^vaat,  without  his  master's 


eoQsent  or  privity,  inserts  a  slanderQiia  artiel« 
against  me  in  his  newspaper,  I  ouglit  not  in 
justice  to  indict  him;  and  if  I  doy  the  jmyo« 
siich  prof^ should  acquit  him;  but  it  is  «q  de« 
fence  to  an  action,  for  he  is  responsible  to  qm 
tiviliier  for  the  damage  which  I  h^vei  sustais^ 
ed  from  the  newspaper,  which  is  hi&  proper^.* 
^-]&  there  any  thmg  new  in  this  princifuel  so 
far  fixHn  it,  that  every  student  knows  it  as  9i^ 
pticable  to  all  other  cases;  but  people  are  re-* 
solved,  from  some  &tahty  or  ot^er,  to  distort 
every  principle  of  law  into  aoitaense,  when 
they  come  to  apply  it  to  printiiig ;  as  if  none 
of  the  rules  ana  mauma  which  regulate  all 
the  transactions  of  eociety  had  any  refoienee 
to  it. 

If  a  man  risins  in  hb  sleep,  ,walks  into  a 
chiiuu-shop,  axka  breaka  every  thing  aho4i| 
him;  his  being  asleep  is  a  oooKplete  answer 
to  an  indietment  for  a  trespass ;  hut  he  ■uiat 
answer  in  an  action  for  every  thing  he'  hat 
broken. 

If  the  proprietfiff  of  the  York  goach^  though 
asleep  in  his  bed  at  that  city,  has  a  drunkeii 
servant  on  the  box  at  lrf»dow,  who  drivea 
over  my  leg  and  breaks  it,  lie  ia  re^wnaible 
to  npie  in  d2nage$  for  the  aceideBt ;  but  I  caB* 
not  iwiict  him  as  the  criminal  author  of  my 
mbfortuna. — What  distinetioQ  can  be  moiv 
obvious  and  simple  f 

Let  us  only  then  extend  these  priaciplesu 
which  were  never  disputed  in  other  crimliuu 
ease^,  to  the  crime  of  publishing  a  libel ;  and 
lot  ua  at  the  same  time  allow  to  the  jurv,  as 
oiir  forefathers  did  before  us,  the  same  jurki* 
diction  ia  that  icustanoe,  which  we  agree  in 
rejoicing  te  aUow  them  in  all  others,  and  thi* 
s^st^n  of  English  law  will^  be  wlse^  hanBq«> 
niou^  and  complete. 

My  fold,  I  have  now  finbhed  rao^  turgumenl^ 
having  answered  the  several  qjojectiona  to  mv 
five  original  propositions,  and  estahhshea 
them  by  all  the  principles  and  autlfton^iea 
which  appe^iF  le  me  to  app^r^  or  to  be  nepes- 
$«ry  fbr  tneir  supporl.<^Iit  una  process  I  hav« 
been  unavoidably  led  into  a  length  odt  more 
il^coovenient  to  the  Court  than  to  mys^t 
and  haye  been  obHaed  to  question  sevemi 
juckmettts,  which  had  been  before  questtoaed 
ana  confirmed. 

They  however  who  buqt  he  disposed  ta  oea- 
sure  me  for  the  zeal  which  has*i|nimated  na 
in  thb  cause,  will  at  kast,  I  hope,  have  the 
candour  to  give  me  credit  for  the  siacenify  of 
my  intentions : — it  is  surely  not  my  interesl 
to  stir  up  opposition  to  the  decided  authorises 
of  the  Court  in  which  I  practise :  with  a  seat 
here  within  the  bar,  •  at  my  time  of  hfo,  and 
looking  no  farther  than  myself,  I  should  have 
been  contented  with  the  law#as  I  found  it,  and 
have  considered  how  /i^/e  might  be  said  with 
decency,  rather  than  hoae  rmteh ; — but  foehng 
as  i  ha\e  ever  done  upon  the  subject,  it  was 
■  I-   11  ■  -  -  ■      I        .        .1         ■       1   .    , 

*  «  9iou8»t  aut  ext«iiiNil  dvHotem  in  oftpitaKbu« 
(l«i>d  «OB  operatar  \iom  in  oivilib^u."    I^ord  Jttaoeo's 
a^v  T. 


IflgSJ  23  GEOR6£  III.    Proceedings  against  the  Dean  of  St.  Asapk,    [1024 


impossible  I  should  act  otherwise. — It  was 
the  fiist  nwiinand  and  ooiinsel  to  mv  youth, 
always  to  do  what  i^y  conscience  told  me  to 
be  my  duty,  axid  to  leave  the  consequences  fo 
God.  I  shall  cairy  with  me  the  memory, 
and,  I  hope,  the  practice,  of  this  parental 
lesson  to  tne  grave :  I  have  hitherto  followed 
h,  and  have  no  reason  to  complain  that  the 
aJdherence  to  it  has  been  even  a  temporal  sa- 
cr^ce ; — I  have  foimd  it,  on  the  contrary,  the 
road  to  prosperity  and  wealth;  and  shall  point 
it  out  as  such  to  my  children.  It  is  impossi- 
ble in  this  country  to  hurt  an  honest  man; 
but  even  if  it  were  possible,  I  should  little 
deserve  that  title,  if  I  could,  upon  any  prin- 
ciple, have  consented  to  tamper  or  temporize 
with  a  question,  which  involves  in  its  deter- 
mination and  its  consequences,  the  liberty  of 
the  press ; — ^and  in  that  liberty,  the  very  ex- 
istence of  every  part  of  the  public  freeeom. 

Mr.  Welch.  My  lord ;  I  am  of  the  same 
side  v^ith  Mr.  .Erskine. — And  after  the  fiill 
discussion  which  my  learned  friend  has  be- 
stowed on  every  part  of  the  important  subject, 
submit^  to  your  Icnrdships,  for  your  determi- 
nation this  day,  it  will  not,  I  am  sure,  be 
thought  necessary,  for  my  client's  interest, 
that  I  should  take  up  much  of  th^  time  of  the 
court — I  shall  endeavour  to  confine  myself,  in 
my  observations,  principally,  to  a  considera^ 
tion  of  the  origin,  and  progressive  application 
of  the  hackneyed  maxim  so  much  relied  oh 
in  different. periods  of  leeal  history,  and  which 
the  gentlemen  on  the  other  side  wish  to  make 
use  of  on  the  present  occasion.— I  mean  the 
maxim,  *  ad  questionem  facti  non  respondent 
<  judices,  ad  qiiesUonem  legis  non  respondent 
«  juratores.'— Upon  the  true  legal  construction 
of  which,  it  seems  to  be  agr^d,  the  present 
Question  in  a  great  measure  depends;  as  if 
this  was  intended  to  mark  Uie  distinct  office 
of  judge  and  jury. 

To  a  pbin  man,  but  slightly  acquainted 
with  the  first  rudiments  of  our  jurisprudence, 
it  may  apoear  reasonable  and  right,  that  the 
law  should  be  explained  by  the  one,  and  ^e 
fact  determined  by  the  other ;  and  the  maxim, 
is  admitted  without  hesitation.  But  it  has 
always  struck  my  mind,  that  this  position, 
thoueh  true  in  pnnciple,  has  been  oftentimes 
greatly  misappRed.  It  was  never  intended  to 
mark  out  distmct  and  separate  jurisdictions  of 
the  judge  and  jury  at  Nisi  Prius,  independent 
and  exclusive  of  each  other. 

I  will  not  pretend  to  say  in  what  page  of 
Bracton  or  Fleta  we  are  to  look  for  the  origin 
of  it ;  but  sure  I  am,  that  in  the  time  of  those 
writers,  it  could  never  be  understood  in  the 
sense  which  is  now  attempted  to  be  put  upon 
it;  as  it  would  be  contradicting  some  of  the 
best  authenticated  facts  in  legal  history. 

I  take  it,  my  lord,  that  this  is  one  of  those 
significant  and  comprehensivesentences,  which 
it  was  the  amusement  of  our  old  laivyers  to 
frame,  in  order  to  convey  in  the  shortest  pos- 
sible way,  the  ground^  and  principles  of  ouf 


law ;  and  that,  by  this  maxim,  they  in  truth 
meant  no  more  than  to  say,  "  That,  in  the 
law  of  England  it  was  the  course  of  judicial 
proceedings,  for  all  matters  of  law  to  bie  put  to 
the  judges  to  be  determined  upon ;  and  all 
matters  of  fact  to  the  jury ;"  and  so  it  Is ;  but 
how  ?  Not  (according  to  my  poor  judgment), 
in  tlie  way  marked  out  by  the  learned  judge 
at  Nisi  Pnus  upon  the  trial  of  ^is  indictment ; 
but  it  meant  this,  that  an  issue  of  law  when  it 
arose  in  pleading  should  be  put  by  the  party 
to  the  judges,  and  an  issue  or  fact  to  thejorv. 
If  it  b  a  po'mt  of  law  which  the  party  pleads, 
he  prays  the  judgment  of  the  court  upon  it ; 
ana  the  court  in  giving  their  opinion  on  such 
prayer,  may  be  truly  said  in  the  language  of 
this  maxim,  respondere.    If  it  is  a  point  ol*  htX, 
he  prays  it  may  be  enquired  of  by  the  coun- 
try, to  which  prayer  toe  verdict  of  the  juiy 
may  be  considered  as  a  response.    Should  a 
party  in  pleading  do  the  reverse  of  this,  and 
pray  that  a  point  of  law  might  be  enquired  of 
Dy  the  jury,  or  pray  the  juds^ent  of  the  court 
on  a  matter  of  fact,  then  would  this  maxim  of 
the  law  ^  ad  questioncm  tacti  non  respondeat 
'  judices,  ad  questionem  juris  non  respondent 
'  juratores,*  be  justly  appued ;  which  in  other 
words,  would  be  saying,  you  should,  accord- 
ing to  an  old  maxim  of  the  law,  have  con- 
cluded to  the  court  in  one  instance,  and  in 
the  other,  to  the  country. 

This,  my  lord,  I  take  to  be  the  true  sense 
and  druft  of  the  wise  and  sententious  maxim 
so  much  observed  upon.  And  I  do  seriously 
beg  leave  to  contend,  that  it  is  not  a  rule  for 
governing  a  trial  by  jury :  but,  if  any  thing,  a 
rule  and  maxim  of  pleading.  That  it  is  not  a 
rule  for  governing  a  trial  oy  jury,  I  say,  ap- 
pears from  the  practice  of  the  courts  in  the 
time  when  this  maxim  gained  birth,  and  firom 
the  unifonn  and  almost  universal  practice 
from  thence,  down  to  the  present  times,  in  all 
judicial  inquiries,  whether  of  a  civil  or  a  oi- 
minal  natore. 

But  now,  when  the  changes  of  time  and 
circumstances,  have  rendered  the  appearance 
of  things  somewhat  complicated,  and  arp- 
ments  are  raised  on  different  sides,  concerning 
their  true  nature ;  I  know  no  promising  ine- 
thod  of  investigation,  but  to  recur  to  first  prin- 
ciples— and  the  first  principles  of  our  law  are 
to  be  looked  for  in  its  ancient  history.  We 
find  in  the  early  periods  of  our  jurisprudence, 
that,  notwithstanding  the  parties  Utigant 
might  select  some  point  of  law  or  fact,  to  rest 
tlieir  case  updn ;  yet  the  simplicity  of  those 
times  gave  such  indulgence  to  the  unlettered 
defendant,  as  to  allow  him  to  make  a  mere  ge- 
neral denial  of  the  charge ;  which  denial  must 
of  necessity  involve  in  it,  both  the  fact  and 
the  law  arising  upon  the  fact,  and  therefon 
vms  properly  called  a  general  issue. 

Here  then  an  allegation  was  made,  which 
contained  both  law  and  fact,  and  there  iieeded 
some  enwsition  of  the  maxim  '  ad  questionem 
*  facti,  &c/  and  '  att  (fuestionem  leeis,  &c.'  to 
determine  the  party  ia  the  piayer  he  vas  to 


1025] 


for  a  Seditmts  LibeL 


make  for  th^  trial  of  the  issue ;  whiqh,  as  it 
coDtaiued  both  la,w  and  fact,  did  not,  by  the 
terms  of  the  maxim,  seem  to  belong  singly  ^^ 
either :  and  the  iuterpre^tion  which  the  law 
has  ^Lven  in  this  instance,  is  peculiarly  de- 
servm^  of  observation ;  for,  as  the  plea  was 
general,  it  was  held  the  trial  should  be  geuersd 
also;  and  should  therefore  so  to  one, only, 
of  the  two  tribunals ;  and  such  preference  was 
given  to  the  fact,  before  the  law,  and  so  much 
more  sacred  was  the  privilege  of  trial  consi- 
dered than  the  prero^tivc  of  judgment,  that 
rather  than  the  fact  should  not  be  tried  by 
the  proper  jurisdiction,  the  wisdom  of  our  an- 
cestors ordained,  that  the  law,  also,  should  be 
determined  by  the  same  authority ;  that  is,  in 
the  language  of  the  law  at  this  day,  tl^at  a  ge- 
neral issue  should  conclude  to  the  country. 
Thus,  my  lord,  if  I  may  parody  a  maxim  of 
the  imperial  code,  it  seems  to  be  a  rule  of  our 
]aw,  and  a  rule  of  evidence  in  general  issues, 
that  '  jus  sequitur  forum  facti.' 

As  a  proof  of  this,  (and  a  strong  one,  consi- 
dering the  nature  of  the  trial^)  may  be  ad- 
duced the  trial  in  a  writ  of  right  by  battle. 
When  the  issue  was  joined  upon  the  mere 
right,  and  the  combatants  were  .produced  to 
decide  the  issue,  the  law  as  well  as  fact  were 
in  their  hands ;  and  we  hear  of  no  judge,  who 
felt  such  jealousy  for  the  supposed  duty  of  his 
office,  as  to  interpose  between  the  batoons  of 
the  champions,^(^ran/e  hello^  and  claim  part 
of  the  deoate,  as  the  share  which  peculiarly 
belonged  to  him  to  try  his  strength  at,  and  to 
decide  upon.  If  this  seems  extravagant  and 
ridiculous,  it  is  no  fault  of  mine,  the  prin- 
ciple is  the  same  when  applied  to  this  mode 
oi  trial  and  to  others ;  and  it  the  consequences, 
in  this  instance,  display  the  absurdity  of  it, 
more  than  in  others,  it  only  answers,  more 
happily,  the  purpose  of  a  just  criterion.  This 
was  the  usual  method  of  trying  a  general 
issue,  in  the  early  part  of  Henry  2,  and  the 
pr^eding  times,  up  to  the  conquest ;  and  ex- 
tended to  most  other  cases,  besideis  a  writ  of 
right,  whether  criminal  or  civil.  When  the 
assize  and  the  jury  were  introduced  by  that 
wise  prince,  in  the  place  of  the  duel,  there 
¥ras  yet  no  alteration  in  the  |>articular  subject 
now  in  question ;  the  assize  in  some^actions, 
and  the  jury  in  others,  were  substituted  for 
the  duel,  but  no  law,  no  book,  no  record,  no 
authority,  printed  or  written,  can  be  produced, 
to  shew  that  any  separation  was  then  made 
between  the  law  and  the  fact,  but  they  were 
now  given  together,  to  the  jurors^  \n  the  same 
manner,  as  to  the  combatants;  £is  appei^s 
plainly  from  the  forms  of  pleading,  and  from 
the  authority  of  our  old  books  and  statutes. 

To  take  one  instaqee  and  examine  it.  The 
.issue  of  '  nid  tort,  nul  disseisin,'-  was  the  ge- 
neral issue  in  an  assize  of  novel  disseisin,  and 
the  tenant,  consistently  with  this  ancient 
maxim,  and  the  exposition  upon  it,  concluded 
by  putting  himself  upon  the  assize  for  the 
truth  of  his  denial?  The  assize,  therefore,  by 
the  terms  of  the  writ  aad  record;  were  autho- 

VOL.  XXL 


A.  D.  1785.  .  [1026 

rized  and  compelled,  to  consider  of  every 
thing  which  would  enable  them  to  say,  whe- 
ther the  tenant  had  committed  the  cUsseisin 
with  wliich  he  was  charged ;  and  every  one 
knows,  that  this  might  turn  upon  various 

J>oint8,  which  could  only  be  determined  upon 
egal  ideas,  and  distioclions ;  an  entry,  a  de- 
scent, a  deed,  and  the  like*  The  jurors  were 
bound,  difficult  as  it  may  seem,  to  take  into 
their  consideration  many  matters  of  this  kind, 
before  thev  were  able  to  pronounce  their  con- 
clusion, whether  the  tenant  had  committed  a 
disseisin  or  not ;  and  in  doing  this  rightly,  and 
according  to  law,  they  acted  under  the  penalty 
or  an  attaint.  The  danger  into  which  imlet- 
tered  jurors  were  brought  by  having  all  this 
burden  of  determining  the  law  thrown  upon 
their  shoulders,  was  taken  into  consideration 
of  the  parliament  in  the  time  of  Edward  1, 
and  when  the  act  for  appointing  justices  oi 
Nisi  Prius  was  made,  in  stat.  2.  West.  ch.  SO, 
this  was  thought,  as  your  lordship  remembers, 
a  proper  occasion  to  pi'ovide  some  relief  for 
jurors,  and  it  was  enac^,  "That  the  justices 
for  taking  assizes  should  not  compel  the  jurors 
to  say  precisely  whether  it  was  a  disseisin  or 
'  no,  so  as  thev  are  willing  to  speak  the  truth  of 
th^  fact,  and  require  aid  of  the  justices ;  but 
if  tbejr,  of  their  own  head,  will  sav  that  it  is 
disseisin,  their  verdict  shall  be  admitted  at 
their  own  peril." 

This,  your  lordship  sees,  was  inte^ded  to 
exonerate  such  jurors  as  felt  and  expressed 
themselves  to  be  burdened  with  some  part  of 
their  duty ;  but  this  was,  provided  they  found 
the  truth  of  the  fact ;  ana  it  wasnever  meant 
to  deprive  them  of  the  right  tb  decide  the  law, 
or  so  much  of  it  as  they  pleased  to  retain, 
much  less  ^o  avo)d  deciding  on  any  part  of 
the  fact 

Now,  my  lord,  what  was  the  law  and  the 
practice  in  taking  assizes  afkr  this  act  ?  When 
the  parliament  had  thus  recognized  the  pos- 
sibility of  matter  ansing,  wnich  the  judge 
would  decide  upon  better  than  the  jurors,  did 
the  judge,  presuming  upon  that  parliamentary 
intimation,  make  a  division  and  apportion- 
ment of  the  matter  arising  at  the  trial  of  the 
assize,  and  did  he  venture  to  tell  the  jurors, 
''  Xliis  is  matter  of  fact,  and  this  is  matter  of 
law ;  the  latter  I  will  take  to  myself  to  con- 
sider upon,  vou  have  nothing  to  do'  with 
it."  -  Do  we  find  thb  to  have  been  the  con- 
duct of  judges  ?  I  believe  if  ever  there  had 
been  an  example  of  it,  some  discerning  juror 
might  and  would  have  ventured  to  expostu- 
late in  the  terms  of  plain  common  sense, 
"  My  lord,  we  are  sworn  to  try,  whether  the, 
demandant  unjustly,  and  without  judgment, 
disseized  the  tenant,  and  the  whole  case  has 
been  laid  before  us;  we  chuse,  as  it  is  our 
duty,  to  decide  the  whole  matter  between  the 
parties ;  but  how  are  we  to  perform  that  duty, 
if  you  take  part  of  the  matter  from  us  ?"  The 
good  sense  of  the  judges  of  tho^e  davs,  pre- 
vented such  complaints,  by  establishing  a 
course  conformable  with  the  old  principle  of 
3  U 


10S71  23  GEORGE  lU^    Proceedings  against  the  Dean  of  St.  Asaph^    [102g 


trials,  and  the  practice  recogpized  bv  the  sta- 
tute ;  they  took  i4>on  them  to  explain  such 
matters  of  h^w,  as  it  should  seem  the  Jurors 
would  wish  to  be  advised  upon,  and  so  lefl  the 
fact,  accompanied  with  that  advice,  to  be  de- 
cided upon  by  the  jurors :  who  still,  as  for- 
merly, gave  in  the  general  verdict  of  disseisin 
or  no  d^seisin,  if  they  so  pleased. 

The  statute  I  have  been  mentioning,  intro- 
.duced  nothing  new,  except  this,  that  ignorant 
judges  were  no  longer  to  throw  off  their  shoul- 
ders, the  burden  of  determining  points  of  law, 
compelling  the  jurors  to  find  it,  apd  run  the 
hazard  of  an  attaint,  if  it  turned  out  to  be  a 
wrong  verdict  in  point  of  law.  This  is  very 
different  from  the  case  of  which  we  now  com- 
plain. Before  this  statute^  it  was  the  usage 
for  jurors  to  take  the  advice  of  judges,  who 
were  able  and  disposed  to  give  it,  and  upon 
^uch  advice,  they  found,  if  they  pleased,  a  ge- 
neral verdict ;  or,  if  they  were  mcluied,  they 
inight,  before  that  act,  have  found  the  special 
matter,  as  is  the  opinion  of  lord  Coke,  (i  Inst. 
4^5)  and  lefk  the  conclusion  upon  it  for  the 
judgment  of  the  court*  It  is,  tnerefore,  partly 
by  tne  equity  of  this  statute,  and  partly  from 
the  former  practice  in  other  cases,  that  the 
modem  metnod  has  obtained  of  a  jurv  trying 
a  general  issue,  and  finding  a  general  verdict 
after  they  !>ad  received  the  advice  of  the 


^^i 


'hen  judges  had  been  long  in  the  habit  of 
dqing  their  duty,  by  assisting  the  jurors  with 
their  advice  in  all  matters  of  doubt,  and  that 
perhaps  too  readily;  and  when  we  consider 
the  manner  in  which  this  is  now  transacted  at 
Nisi  Prius,  I  do  not  wonder,  that  the  maxim 
which  has  been  so  ofVen  mentioned,  should 
Be  applied  in  ^e  sense  contended  fbr  by  the 
eentlemen  on  tne  otner  side.  If  a  matter  of 
taw  arises,  the  counsel  (without  the  jury  pray- 
ing the  advice  of  the  judge)  turns  round  to 
the  bench  stating  a  point  which  is  for  his  lord^ 
.  ship's  consideration ;  the  coimsel  on  the  other 
side  do  the  same ;  the  iuiy  are  at  a  distance, 
perfectly  ignorant  of  what  is  going  forward, 
and  ready  enough  to  acquiesce  in  what  they 
fire  told  plainly,  or  is  plainly  to  be  collectedf, 
yiz.  that  they  have  nothing  at  all  to  do  with 
the  matter ;  and  so  it  turns  out ;  for  af^er  a 
JBori  of  private  conversation  between  the  judge 
and  counsel,  his  lordship  tells  thp  jtny  that 
the  matter  is  so  and  so,  and  they  must  find  a 
verdict  accordingly ;  when  a  person  has  been 
bflen  witness  to  such  a  method  of  ordering  a 
Irial  upon  a  general  issue,  I  do  not  wonder, 
that^  before  diicf  consideration,  he  should  be 
led  into  the  idea,  that  the  office  of  the  judge 
was  an  independent  and  separate  one,  from 
that  of  the  jury ;  and  finding  such  a  maxim  as 
this  in  question,  readily  adopt  it  to  explain  the 
above  appearance.  And  tne  learned  judge 
seems  to  me  to  have  resorted  to  it  tp  support 
}iis  present  direction  to  the  jury. 

But  no  man,  who  reflects  a  mpment,  or  who 
has  trace'd  the  nature  of  a  trial,  upon  the  gc<r 
)|era]  issue,  from  the  first  origiij  of  our  law, 


would  be  long  deceived,  by  the  appearance  of 
things,  into  such  a  misconception ;  he  would 
readUy  enough  acknowledge  the  propriety  of 
such  an  ad£ress  to  the  judge,  on  a  point  of 
law ;  he  would  admit,  that  the  juiy  did  right, 
in '  aicquiescing  to  receive  that  aavice  m  the 
first  instance,  which  upon  tlieur  own  request 
they  are  intitled  to  expect  from  the  jinge ; 
bijt  he  would  be  able  to  reconcile  both  these^ 
with  the  true  and  legal  notion  of  the  pro- 
ceeding, namely,  that  the  jury  were  in  tnit^ 
and  con^Tiiction  of  law,  the  persons  who 
found  the^  verdict  containing  both  the  law  saj 
the  tact :  |hat  the  judge  was  their  assistant 
therein  to  si4vise  the  former ;  so  that  now.  as 
in  the  early  jtimes  of  our  law,  the  iuiy  nod 
both  the  law  gxid  fact,  upon  a  general  issue. 

The  obseryations  I  have  ventured  to  state 
to  your  lordslup,  on  the  trial  of  a  general  issue, 
have  been  connpcd  to  civil  cases ;  and  I  chose 
to  begin  with  Jhem,  partly  ^ecause  the  ancient 
examples,  and  particularly  the  statute  West- 
minster Sd,  belonged  to  civil  actions ;  but 
chiefly,  because,  whatever  I  may  establish  upo^ 
the  head  of  civil  trials^  will  i  fortiori  be  true 
as  to  criminal  ones :  for  if  the  legal  histoiy  of 
a  trial  of  the  general  issue  is  the  same  in  mat- 
ters of  crime,  the  leaving  the  law  to  be  found 
by  the  jury  in  such  cases,  is  less  hardship  iqmn 
them;  the  construction  the  law  puts  upoQ 
(Timinal  acts  being  less  artificial  ana  complex, 
than  that  which,  it  puts  on  civil  transactions ; 
a  man  who  would  not  readily  comprehend  the 
legal  notion  of  a  descent,  an  entry,  or  a  feoff- 
ment, might  soon  be  satisfied  of  the  whole 
law,  upon  the  subject  of  robbery,  burglai^f, 
larceny,  libel,  and  the  like. 

That  the  condition  of  the  judge  and  juiy, 
upon  the  trial  of  the  general  issue,  in  matters 
oi  crime,  was  the  same,  as  has  been  just  stated 
m  civil  issues,  is  well  known  to  those,  who 
have  looked  into  the  history  of  our  law ;  and 
little  need  be  said  on  this  head,  in  addition  to 
what  I  have  before  submitted  on  the  nature  of 
civil  trials.  We  know,  that  the  guilt  of  a  man 
was  tried  by  the  duel,  that  juries  were  substi- 
tuted in  the  place  of  ^at  barbarous  judicap 
ture,  about  tne  same  time,  and  in  the  same 
degree,  as  the  like  improvements  were  made 
in  trying  matters  of  property ;  and  no  more 
difference  was  introduced  afler  this  trial  passed 
from  the  batoon  to  the  verdict,  as  to  the  rcb- 
tive  situation  of  the  judge,  than  in  civil  trials  j 
the  pleading  was  exactly  the  same,  because 
regulated  by  the  maxim  so  often  mentioned, 
accompanied  with  the  exposition  of  it  I  have 
before  given.  If  the  defendant  alleged  matter 
of  law,  and  rested  upon  it,  he  prayed  the 
judgment  of  the  court;  if  he  picked  the|p- 
neral  issue,  by  denying  his  guut,  he  put  biffl- 
self  upon  tne  country  for  the  truCh  of  jt  The 
jury  therefore  were  the  tribunal  he  looked^ 
for  the  elucidation  of  his  innocence,  and  the 
law  upheld  him  in  the  choice  he  had  mw^ 
when  by  the  mouth  of  the  cryer  it  is  wished 
that  God  might  send  him  a  good  delivcrana. 
But,  if  a  judge,  acting  upoathe  new-fiM^gW 


i02&j  Jot  a  Seditious  Lib4* 

<6onstruction  ot  that  old  position  of  law,  Should 
iake  part  of  the  issue  to  himself^  telling  the 
jury  they  have  nothing  to  do  ^ith  i^  because 
It  is  a  point  of  law ;  in  vain  has  the  dfefendant 

Sut  himself  upon  his  Country,  the  hopes  of  his 
eliverancc  are  disappointed,  and  the  jury 
ip^ho  have  been  sworn  well  and  truly  to  try 
and  true  deliverance  make  between  the  king 
and  the  defendant^  are  thus  tendered  ridicu- 
lous \  pari  of  the  issue  being  wrested  from 
thetli,and.tak&n  to  another  tribunal,  which 
the  law  knows  pot ;  so  that,  altogether,  this 
Would  not  be  a  trial  by  jury,  but  a  trial  by  the 
judge  and  the  jury,  having  distinct  and  mde- 
pendent  authorit^^  exclusive  of  each  other ; 
one  to  enquire  of  the  fact^  and  the  other  of 
ihe  law;   a  tribunal  which  I  trust,  I  have 
shewn,  is  not  warranted  b^  the  principles  of 
our  ancient  law,  nor  reconcileable  to  any  true 
notion  of  judicial  proceedings  in  this  country. 
This  pomt  is  the  very  gist  of  the  Question, 
now  before  the  court  to  determine,  ana  I  mean 
to  contend  unequivocally,  and  as  a  necessary 
tonclusion  from  what  I  have  said,  that  the 
law  of  England  ^paradoxical  as  it  may  seem) 
knows  no  such  trial  as  that  by  iudge  and  jury ; 
or  in  other  words,  that^  in  all  questions  sent 
to  a  jur^  to  be  tried,  the  jury  are  the  only 
known  judges  of  that  question,  whether  it 
turns  upon  law  or  fact;  and  the  judge  has  no 
lawful  authority  to  interpose,  but  by  advice ; 
ivhich  implies  that,  this,  like  all  other  advice, 
may  be  rejected  by  those,  who  are  at  liberty, 
and  chuse  to  act  without  it.    The  judge,  not- 
\rithstanding  the  rank  of  his  office,  and  the 
advantage  he  derived  from  his  knowledge  of 
the  law^  over  those  who  wete  the  real  tryers 
of  the  issue,  yet  being  allowed  to  interfere 
V^ith  advice,  only  when  called  upon  by  the 
jury,  as  expressed  by  stat.  2.  Vvestm!  evi« 
denU^  was  placed  in  a  secondary  light. — The 
law,  m  an  instance  a  little  similar  to  this,  has 
given  an  opinion  upon  the  relative  character 
of  such  assistants  and  advisers  to  the  propei' 
judge  of  a  court ;  your  lordship  knows,  tnat 
by  Stat.  3  Hen.  7,  c.  for  new  modelling  the 
Star  Chamber,  it  was  ordained,  that  the  chan- 
cellor, treasurer,  privy  seal,  or  two  of  them^ 
tailing  to  them  a  lord  spiritual  and  temporal 
of  the  council,  should  determine  upon  riots 
and  othei^  offences  there  mentionea.    Upob 
this  statute  it  becaine  a  question,  whether  the 
lords  spiritual  and  temporal  so  called  in  were 
judgjes  of  this  court;  and  it  was  held  by  all 
the  justices  in  the  time  of  Henry  7  that  they 
"were  not ;  but  only  assistant  and  aiding  to  the 
chancellor,  treasurer,  or  privy  seal,  or  two  of 
them,  who  were  the  only  judges. — ^Now,  my 
lord,  by  judge  in  this  caise  We  must  understand 
the  |M)wer  to  try  and  determine;  and  if  a 
question  had  been  put  to  those  jud^s^  on  th^ 
nature  of  a  trial  on  the  general  issue^  What 
would  they  have  said  ?  they  must  Upon  the 
same  prindplie  have  pronounced  the  judge 
who  was  present  to  advise,  to  be  only  assistant 
and  aiding;  and  not  properly  a  juase  of  the 
natter  in  questions  and  tbereforei  of  course^ 


A*  D.  1783^ 


tfosd 


that  the  sole  power  to  try  and  determine  rested 
in  the  jury.  Indeed  the  language  of  the  law 
uniformly  corresponds  with  this  idea — while 
the  jurors  were  considered  as  the  p^ersons  to 
try  the  disseisin ;  the  jtidge  had  onlv  a  cotit« 
mission  ad  capiancUu.assisai^  to  take  the  assize 
or  verdict  of  the  jurors,  as  if  his  situation  on 
fhat  occasion,  was  only  to  aid  and  assist ;  in  a 
Way,  however,  somewhat  mere  than  minister 
rial.  And  that  this  is  the  situation  of  a  jndge^ 
when  trying  an  issue  (as  the  common  expres* 
sion  is,  but,  as  I  beg  leave  to  contend^  wheA 
the  jury  are  trying  an  issue,)  seems  to  havd 
been  the  opinion  of  all  constitutipnal  lawyers^ 
and  of  every  judge  in  this  country,  Whosd 
name  and  meitiory  we  are  taught  to  revere. 

When  a  burglary,  robbery,  or  the  like  h 
trying,  your  loraships^  in  your  address  to  the 
jury,  explain  to  them  itie  law  arising  upon  thtf 
f^ts,  and  after  such  advice,  you  leave  both  td 
be  tried  and  determined  by  the  jury  :  in* 
stances  of  this  kind  are  familiar  to  us  all ;  and 
some  of  us  have  been  witnesses  to  cases,  bi 
which  the  jury  have  taken  upon  them  to  dt»< 
regard  the  advice  of  the  judge ;  and  find  a 
eeneral  verdict  in  opposition  to  it ;  when  this 
happens,  who  will  ^f  there  is  a  remedy^ 
your  lordships  know  ther6  is  none ;  and  that 
IS  a  ciraimstance  of  itself  sufficient  to  shew^ 
they  acted  within  the  limits  of  their  province^ 

On  a  late  octasion^  the  relative  situation  ef 
the  judge  and  jury  in  criminal  trials,  appears 
to  me  to  have  been  fully  recognised  an^  e^ 
jilained  by  a  judge  of  Very  distinguished  leatn<< 
mg  and  talents,  and  whose  opinff^n  I  may  ten-* 
ture  to  say,  will  not  be  disregarded  by  yoat 
lordsliips.  This  was  in  the  trial  of  colonel 
Gordon,  at  the  Old  Bailey.  My  learned  friend 
has  already,  with  great  force  of  observation, 
taken  notice  of  this  case ;  I  shall,  therefore^ 
forbear  to  trouUe  the  court  with  the  particu-* 
lars  of  it  again. 

It  is,  my  lord^  in  opposition  to  all  these  au** 
ihorities,  to  history,  to  law,  and  to  plain 
Sense ;  that  upon  the  trial  of  this  indictment, 
as  well  as  a  few  similar  cases,  (all  of  which  i 
hope  from  this  day,  wiU  be  considered  as 
Waste  paper  in  our  report  books),  a  different 
practice  nas  been  introduced :  and  the  mattet 
which  ought  to  go  to  the  jury  for  them  to  try 
and  (letermine^  has  been  mutilated,  and  madd 
essentially  defective.  Instead  of  thd  jury 
l&eing  advised,  whether  the  publication  id 
question,  was  in  point  of  law  a  libel  or  not, 
according  to  the  practice  of  all  judges  iii 
Other  cnminal  matters;  instead  of  the  fact 
and  the  law  being  committed  to  thd  jury  to* 
gether ;  thai,  in  tlie  intelligent  words  of  Mr^ 
Saron  Eyre,  they  might  compound  their  ver^ 
diet  out  of  both,  the  jury^  in  the  present  in^ 
stance,  were  told,  they  had  nothing  to  do  with 
the  libel,  but  that  was  to  be  decided  upon  by 
the  court* 

This,  my  lord,  if  I  do  not  jgrossly  err,  is  such 
a  deception  on  the  expectations  and  privileges 
of  defendants  who  have  put  themselves  upod 
their  country^  that,  who  is  there  but  must 


losu 


S3  GEORGE  IIL    Proceedimgiapinaikel}eamcfSt.Amik,   [10» 


feel  himself  seriouriy  ilanned  tl  H?  h  is  not 
only  the  cause  of  my  client^  but  the  cause  of 
'Crery  man  ytibo  may  unbap|Hly  become  the 
object  oi  any  criminal  prosecution ;  the  doc- 
tnne  strikes  deep ;  it  extends  to  the  whole 
penal  code;  there  can  be  no  trial  at  the  Old 
Bailey,  ^here  the  jury  may  not  be  told  in  the 
tame. manner,  as  on  this  occasion:  ^The 
burglary  con^sts  of  law  and  feet ;  you  are  to 
try  the  fact  of  breaking  and  stealing ;  you' will 
say  if  the  property  is  proved  as  laid  in  the  in- 
dictment, but  wliether  this  is  a  burglanr  be- 
longs to  the  court  to  determine ;  I  shall  re- 
serve it  foF  the  opinion  of  the  judges.*^ 
.  One  reason  given  by  the  learned  judge  in 
the  present  case,  for  not  leaving  the  matter  of 
libel  to  the  consideration  of  the  jury  is,  that 
the  whole  appears  upon  the  record ;  I  do  not, 
with  great  submission,  admit  the  justness  of 
this  reason ;  because  it  is  making  a  circum- 
stance purely  accidental,  a  motive  for  altering 
the  established  method  of  trying  offences; 
and  if  it  is  a  reason,  the  same  reason  exists 
iif  an  indictment  for  perjury ;  though  I  fancy, 
no  judge  ever  made  this  use  of  it;  the  same 
reason  might  be  introduced  into  indictaients 
for  all  oftences;  for  a  prosecutor,  instead  of 
confiuing  himself  to  the  present  short  method 
of  indictmg  for  larceny,  might  alledse  every 
particubr  movement  in  the  process  oipicking 
a  pocket;  and  the  judge  might  then  say,  with 
the  same  propriety,  as  in  the  present  instance ; 
**  The  case  is  all  upon  the  record,  it  is  there- 
fore very  proper  to  leave  it  to  the  court  to  de- 
termine, whether  in  point  of  law  it  is  within 
the  statute  of  Elizabeth/'  But  lest  we  should 
fail  of  making  the  appUcation  of  the  prece- 
dent, as  it  stood  upon  its  own  ground,  smgly, 
and  bv  itself,  the  law  is  here  laid  down  m  a 
Fay  that  puts  all  your  lordships  under  a  like 
restraint;  not  only  where  the  indictment 
contains  the  whole  offence^  but  in  all  indict- 
ments wliatsoever.  The  learned  judge  says, 
whatev<Jr  appears  upon  the  record  b  not  for 
•ur  decision  here. 

.  My  lord,  I  know  that  the  where  and  the 
whereas  of  pleading  is  not  such  a  part  of  the 
record,  as  is  to  be  decided  upon  at  Nisi  Prius; 
but,  my  lord,  the  crime  appears  upon  the  re- 
cord, and  the  defendant  says  he  is  not  guilty 
of  it;  atid  the  jury  are  to  try  if  he  is ;  this, 
•urel^r,  is  to  be  decided  upon ;  or  the  judge 
and  jury  meet  there  for  no  purpose  at  all. 
But  "  it  may  be  decided  upon  hereafter."  I 
answer^  so  it  might  have  been  then,  as  I  trust 
your  lordships  wBl  determine,  and  in  so  deter- 
mining, you  will  justify  that  maxim  of  the 
law,,  which  says,,  •  frustra  per  plura  ansritur 
*  quod  fieri  possit  per  pauciom.'  When  the 
law  says,  my  client  ought  to  faave  been  left  to 
the  judgment  of  his  country,  why  is  he 
brought  up  to  the  bar  of  this  court,  to  contest 
the  same  point,  which  might,  in  the  proper 
course  of  things,  have  b^n  decided  m  the 
first  instance } 

But  the  learned  judge  has  given  another 
reason  for  this.    It  is  a  reason,  mdeed,  which 


I  own,  would  not  have  ooconed  to  me^  uk] 
which  I  beg  leave,  with  that  deference  whidi 
belongs  to  my  sitnation,  to  protest  against 
He  says,  speaking  almost  in  the  fau^mge  of 
the  counsel  for  the  prosecution,  ^  U  I  ms 
to  ove  an  opinion  here,  that  it  was  nota  libd 
and  you  adopted  it,"  that  is ;  if  you  wen  to 
acquit  the  di^endant;  what  then?  ^  you  de- 
prive the  subject  of  that  which  is  one  of  his 
dearest  birth-rights,  you  deprive  him  of  his 
writ  of  error." 

Your  lordship  has  heard  of  private  vices 
being  public  benefits ;  but  whoever  oonceiTcd 
that  public  vices  were  private  benefits?  Hie 
law  of  the  latter  position  is  sprely  as  incorrect 
as  the  morality  of  the  former ;  for  this  doc- 
trine, pushed  to  its  ftiU  eictent,  supposes  that 
the  prosecutor  of  a  public  crime  has  a  sort  of 
interest,  or  stake,  in  the  enquiry,  further  than 
the  ends  of  justice,  and  that  the  judge  should  ^ 
shew  a  soK  of  tenderness  for  the  preservatxm 
of  it.  Whereas  it  is  the  humane  langmee  of 
our  lawy  that  the  ju^  should  be  counsd  for 
the  crimi nal,  and  so  rar  has  this  judicial  merer 
been  indulged,  that  I  have  seen  jud^  hiink 
very  hard  indc^,  to  avoid  any  mfimgenKiU 
of  if. 

Not  to  be  tedious ;  I  trust  I  have  shewn,  to  ^ 
the  satisfaction  of  your  lordship  and  the  coui^ 
that  upon  the  trial  of  the  general  issue  of  not 
ffiiilty,  the  iury  are  the  proper  judm  both  of 
Uie  law.  and  fact.  That  the  duty  o?  the  jndg^ 
upon  the  bench  is  to  advise  them  in  finding 
that  law  and  fact.  That  if  he  takes  the  matter 
of  law  wholly  from  the  jury,  to  be  decided  in 
another  place,  as  lie  takes  part  of  the  matter 
of  enquirv  from  the  jury,  the  trial  is  iooom- 
p  lete,  and  the  verdict  so  of  course. . 

I  will  no  longer  delay  the  judgment  of  the 
court 

I  sit  down,  assured  that  your  lordship  will 
grant  a  new  trial.  If  I  shall  fmd  myself  dis- 
appointed in  my  expectation ;  and  the  doc- 
tnnes  which  I  have  weakly  endeavoured  to 
combat,  shall,  this  day,  be  pronounced  to  be 
the  fixed  and  unalterable  law  of  the  land,  I 
shall  Uien  rao^  seriously  lament  And,  in 
the  midst  of  ifr^  great  concern  hereafter,  it 
will  afford  my  mii3  but*  little  consolation,  to 
reflect,  that  by  ^our  lordship's  great  favour 
and  iffdulgence>  it  has  been  permitted  me,  for 
a  few  minutes,  to  avert — the  heaviest  blow 
which,  in  my  conscience,  I  shall  think  tht 
liberties  of  the  people  of  England  have  evtf 
received. 


It  was  too  late  in  the  dav,  when  the  Coun* 
sel  finished,  for  the  ludges  to  deliver  their 
opinions,  and  tiie  Court  immediately  adjourn- 
ed ;  the  Lord  Chief  Justice  declaring,  that 
'  they  were  s^eed  in  the  judgment  they  were  tt 
^  give,  and  would  deliver  it  the  next  morning.' 

Accordingly,  next  day,  the  16th  of  Novcni- 
ber,  at  the  opening  of  the  Courts 


1033] 


Jisr  a  Seditiout  LibeL 


K.D.  1763.. 


[1034 


The  Earl  of  Man^ld^  Lord  Chief  Justice, 
dielivered  himself  as  follows: 

In  this  case  of  the  King  against  Mr. 
Shipley,  dean  of  St.  Asaph,  the  motion  to  set 
aside  the  verdict,  and  to  grant  a  new  trial, 
upon  account  of  the  misdirection  of  th^  judge, 
•upposes  that  upon  this  verdict  (either  as  a 
general,  or  as  minutes  of  a  special  verdict  to  be 
reduced  into  form),  judgment  may  be  given  : 
— for  if  the  verdict  was  defective,  and  omitted 
finding  any  thing  within  the  province  of  the 
jury  to  find,  there  ought  to  oe  a  •venire  de 
funoy  and  consequently  this  motion  is  totally 
improper;  therefore,  as  I  said,  the  motioh 
supposes  that  judgment  may  be  given  upon 
the  verdict;  and  it  rests  upon  the  objections 
to  the  direction  of  the  iudge. 
.  I  think  they  may  be  reduced  to  four  in 
number,  one  of  which  is  peculiar  to  this  case, 
«nd  therefore  I  begin  with  it,  viz.  That  the 
judge  tlid  not  leave  the  evidence  of  a  lawful  ex- 
cuse or  justification  to  the  jury,  as  a  ground  for 
them  to  acquit  the  defendant  upon^  or  as  a  mat- 
^ter  for  their  consideration.  This  is  an  objec- 
tion peculiar  to  this  case,  and  therefore  I 
begin  with  it,  to  dispose  of  it  first.  Circum- 
stances merely  of  alleviation  or  aggravation 
are  irrelevant  upon  the  trial ;  they  are  totally 
immaterial  to  the  verdict,  because  they  do  not 
prevent  or  conclude  the  jury's  finding  for  or 
against  the  defendant;  they  may  be  made 
use  of  when  jud^^ent  is  given,  to  increase  or 
lessen  the  punisnm'ent,  but  they  are  totally 
irrelevant  and  immaterial  upon  the  trial. 
Circumstances  which  amount!  to  a  lawful  ex- 
^cuse  or  a  justification,  are  proper  upon  the 
trial,  and  can  only  be  used  thel^.  Upon, 
every  such  defence  set  up,^f  a  lawful  excuse 
or  justification,  there  necessarily  arise  two 

2'  uestions,  one  of  law,  the  other  of  fact ;  the 
rst  to  be  decided  by  the  Court,  the  second 
by  the  jury. 

Whether  the  fact  alleged,  supposing  it  true, 
be  a  legsd  excuse,  is  a  question  of  law ;  whe- 
ther the -allegation  be  true,  is  a  question  of 
fact;  and, according  to  this  distinction,  the 
judge  ought  to  direct,  and  the  jury  ought  to 
follow  the  direction ;  thotigh  by  means  of  a 
-general  verdict  they  are  intrusted  with  a 
power  of  blending  law  and  fact,  and  following 
the  prejudices  of  their  affections  or  passions. 

The  first  circumstance  in  evidence  in  this 
cause  is  a  letter  of  the  34th  of  January  to 
Edwards,  and  the  advertisement  that  accom- 

Janied  it;  and  what  was  said  by  Edward 
ones  in  the  conversation  that  he  held  with 
the  defendant  on  thd  7  th  of  January.  Upon 
this  part  of  the  case  we  must  suppose  the 
paper  seditious  or  criminal ;  for,  if  it  is  nei- 
ther seditious  nor  criminaK  the  defendant 
must  be  acquitted  upon  the  face  of  the  record. 
—Therefore,  whether  it  is  an  excuse  or  not, 
-we  must  suppose  the  paper  to  be  a  libel,  or 
criminal  in  the  eyes"  of  the  law.  ITien  how 
does  it  stand  upon  this  excuse  ?  why,  the  de- 
fendant, knowing  the  paper  had  been  strcngl^ 


objected  to  as  tending  to  sedition,  or  that  it 
might  be  so  understood,  publishes  it  with  aa 
advertisement,*  avowing  and  justifying  thd 
doctrine :  so  that  -he  publishes  it  under  th« 
circmnstances  of  avowing  and  justifying  %h\i 
criminal  doctrine. 

The  next  circumstance  is  from  the  evidence 
of  Edward  Jones,  that  the  defendant  was  told 
and  knew  that  the  paper  was  objected  to  as 
having  a  seditious  tendency;  that  it  might 
do  mischief  if  it  was  translated  into  Welsh, 
and  therefore  that  design  was  laid  aside; 
that  he  read  it .  at  the  county  meeting,  and 
said  he  read  it  with  a  rope  about  his  neck  ; 
and,  after  he  had  read  it,  ne  said,  it  was  not 
to  bad.  And  this  he  knew  upon  the  7  th  Ja^ 
nuar)r ;  yet  he  sets  this  up  as  an  excuse  for 
ordering  it  to  be  printed  upon  the  ^4th  of  Ja« 
nuary. 

We  are  all  of  opinion  clearly,  that  if  the 
writing  be  criminal,  these  circumstances  are 
aggravations,  and  by  no  means  ought  to  have 
been  left  to  the  jury  as  any  excuse. 

It  isi  a  mockery  to  say  it  is  an  excuse. 
What !  when  the  man  Hmself  knows  that  he 
reads  it  with  a  rope  about  his  neck ;  when  he 
says,  admitting  it  to  be  bad,  that  it  not  so 
bad;  when  he  nas  told  a  company  of  gentle- 
men, that  for  fear  of  its  doing  mischief  to 
their  country,  he  would  not. have  it  translated 
into  Welsh : — all  these  circumstances  plainly 
showed  him  that  he  should  not  have  publish- 
ed it.  Theriefbre  we  are  all  of  opinion,  it  is 
the  same  as  if  no  such  evidence. had  been 
given,  and  that,  if  it  had  been  offered  by  wav 
of  excuse,  it  ought  not  to  have  been  jeceivedf. 
The  advertisement  was  read  to  the  jury,  but 
the  judge  did  very  right  not  to  leave  it  to 
them  as  a  matter  of  excuse,  because  it  was 
clearly  of  a  contrary  tendency. 

What  was  meant  by  saying  the  advertise- 
ment should  have  been  set  out  in  {he  indict- 
ment, I  do  not  comprehend-;  much  less  that 
blasphemy  may  be  charged  on  the  Scripture 
by  only  stating  half  the  sentence. 

If  anv  part  of  the  sentence  qualifies  what  is 
set  forth',  it  may  be  given  in  evidence,  as  was 
expressly  determined  by  the  Court  so  long 
ago  as  tne  case  of  the  King  and  Bere,  in  Saf 
keld  417,  in  the  reign  of  king  William. 
Every  circumstance  which  tends  to  prove  the 
meaning,  is  every  day  given  in  evidencci  and 
the  jury  are  the  only  judges  of  the  meaning, 
and  must  find  the  meaning ;  for  if  they  do 
not  find  tbe  meaning,  the  verdict  is  not  com- 
plete. So  far  for  the  objection  upon  that  part 
which  is  peculiar  to  this  case. 

The  second  objection  is,  that  the  judge  did 
net  give  his  own  opinion,  whether  the  writuig 
was  a  libel,  or  seditious,  or  criminal. 

The  third,  that  the  jud^  told  the  jury  they 
ought  to  leave  that  auestion  upon  record  to 
the  Court,  if  they  had  no  doubt  of  the  mean- 
ing and  publication. 

*  Sa0  the  adverUaeoieiU.  prafi&ed  to  tbo  Dialogve^ 
p.  89S. 


1035]  23  GEORGE  lit.    Proceedingi  Ogalnsi  the  Dean  of  St.  Asapfi,    [WS 

The  fourih  and  last,  that  he  did  not  leave  ' 
the  defendants  intent  to  the  jiiry. 

The  answer  to  these  three  objections  is, 
that  by  the  constitution  the  jury  ought  not  to 
decide  the  question  of  law^  whether  such  a 
writiimy  of  such  a  meaning,  published  without 
a  lawful  excuse,  be  criminal ;  and  they  cannot 
decide  \\  finally  aeainst  the  defendant,  be- 
cause, after  the  verdict,  it  remains  open  upon 
the  record ;  therefore  it  is  the  duty  of  the 
judge  to  advise  the  jury  to  separate  the  ques- 
tion of  fact  from  the  question  of  law  ;•  and,  as 
they  ought  not  to  decide  the  law ;  and  the 
question  remains  entire  upon  the  record,  the 
judge  is  not  called  upon  necessarily  to  tell 
them  his  own  opinion  *  It  is  almost  peculiar 
to  the  form  of  the  prosecution  for  a  libel, 
that  the  question  of  law  remains  entirely  for 
the  Court  upon  record^  and  that  the  jury  can- 
not decide  it  against  the  defendant ;  so  that  a 
g;eneral  verdict '  that  the  defendant  is  guilty,' 
IS  equivalent  to  a  special  verdict  in  other 
cases.  Itfinds  all  which  belongs  to  the  jury 
to  find ;  it  finds  nothing  as  to  the  question  of 
law.  Therefore  when  a  jury  have  been  satis^ 
fied  as  to  every  fact  within  their  province  to 
fifid,  they  have  been  advised  to  nnd  the  de- 
fendant ^t/t7fy,  and  in  that  shape  they  take 
the  opinion  of  the  Court  upon  the  law.  No 
case  nas  been  cited  of  a  special  verdict  in  a 

E'osecution  for  a  libel,  leaving  the  question  of 
w  upon  the  record  to  the  Court,  though,  to 
be  sure,  it  might  be  left  in  that  form ;  out 
the  other  is  simpler  and  better. 

As  to  the  last  objection  upon  th^  intent : 
a  criminal  intent,  from  doing  a' thine  criminal 
in  itself  without  a .  lawful  excuse,  is  an  in- 
ference of  law,  and  a  conclusiv.e  inference  of 
law^  not  to  be  contradicted  but  by  an  excuse, 
which  I  have  fully  gone  through.  Where  an 
innocent  act  is  m«le  criminal,  when  done 
with  a  particular  intent,  there  the  intent  is  a 
material  fact  to  constitute  the  crime.  This  is 
the  answer  that  is  given  to  these  three  last 
objections  to  the  direction  of  the  judge.  The 
first  I  said  was  peculiar  to  this  case. 

The  subject  matter  of  these  three  objections 
has  arisen  upon  every  trial  for  a  libel  since 
the  Revolution,  which  is  now  near  one  hun- 
dred years  ago.  In  every  reien  there  have 
been  many  such  trials  both  of  a  private  and 
a  public  nature.  In  every  reign  there  have 
beien  several  defended  with  all  the  acrimony 
of  party  ataimosity,  and  a  spirit  ready  to  con- 
test every  point,  and  to  admit  nothing. 
During  all  this  time,  as  far  as  it  can  be  traced, 
one  may  venture  to  say,  that  the  direction  of 
c\*cry  judge  has  been  consonant  to  the  doc- 
trine of  Mr.  Justice  Buller ;  and  no  counsel 
has  complained  of  it  bv  any  application  to 
the  Court.  The  counsel  for  the  crown,  to  re- 
move the  prejudices  of  a  jury,  and  to  satisfy 


*  He  if  BOW  bound  by  the  Libel  Act  to  telUliem 
hU  own  opinion.  Note  to  <  Lord  Brakine^B  Speeches.' 
8(^  the  Libel  Act  (ittL  82  G.  S,  c  60}  ante,  VoL  8, 
p.  96, 


I 


the  b^-fitanders,  have  expatiated  upon  the 
enormity  of  the  libels ;  iudges,  with  me  saint 
view,  have  sometimes  done  the  same  thing; 
both  have  done  it  wisely  with  another  view-* 
to  obviate  the  captivatmg  harangues  of  the 
defendants  counsd  to  the  jury,  tending  to 
show  that  they  can  or  ought  to  find  that  in 
law  the  paper  is  no  libel. 

But  tne  formal  direction  of  eveiy  judge 
(under  which  every  lawyer  for  near  100 
years,  has  so  far  acqmesced  as  not  to  complain 
of  it  to  the  court)  seems  to  me,  ever  since  the 
Revolution,  to  have  been  agreeable  to  the  di- 
rection of  Mr.  Justice  Buller.  It  b  difBcuU 
to  cite  cases;  the  trials  are  not  printed* 
Unless  particular  questions  arise,  notes  are 
not  taken :  nobody  takes  a  note  of  a  direction 
of  course  not  disputed.  We  must,  as  in  all 
cases  of  tradition,  trace  backwards,  and  pre- 
suthe,  from  the  usage  which  is  rememUxed, 
that  the  precedent  usage  was  the  same.  We 
know  there  were  many  trials  for  libels  in  the 
reign  of  king  WUIiam ;  there  is  no  trace  that 
I  l^ow  of,  of  any  report,  that  at  all  bears  upon 
the  question  during  that  reign,  but  the  case 
of  the  King  and  Bere,  which  is  in  Salkeld : 
that  was  in  the  reign  of  kin^  William,  and 
the  only  thing  there  applicabte  to  the  present 
question  is,  uiat  the  Court  were  of  opinion 
that  the  writing  complained  of  must  be  set 
out  according  to  the  tenour  :  Why  ?  That  the 
Court  may  judge  of  the  very  words  them- 
selves ;  whereas,  if  it  was  to  oe  according  to 
the  effect f  that  judgment  must  be  left  to  the 
jury.  But  there  it  was  detennined,  and  under 
that  authority  ever  since,  the  writing  c«n- 
plained  of  is  set  out  according  to  the  tenour. 

•  During  the  reign  of  queen  Anne  we  know 
several  trials  were  had  for  hbels,  but  the  only 
one  cited  is  in  the  year  1704  f  and  there  tbif 
direction  (though  lord  Holt,  who  is  said  to 
have  done  it  in  several  cases,  goes  into  the 
enormity  of  the  libel)  to  the  jury  was,  *  If  you 
*  find  the  publication  in  London,  you  must 
'  find  the  defendant  guilty.'  Thus  it  stands, 
as  to  all  that  can  be  found  precisely  and  par- 
ticularly, in  the  reiens  of  ting  William  and 
2ueen  Anne.  We  Know  that  m  the  rciai  of 
reorge  1  there  were  several  trials  for  fibcli^ 
but  1  nave  seen  no  note  or  traces  of  them/ 
nor  any  question  concerning  them.  In  the 
reign  of  king  George  2  there  were  others  j 
but  the  first  of  which  Uicre  is  a  note  (for 
which  I  am  obliged  to  Mr.  Manleyt)*  ^""^  ^ 
February  1729— the  King  and  ClarkeJ- 
which  was  tried  before  L.  C.  J.Raymond; 
and  there  he  lays  it  down  expressly  (there 
being  no  question  about  an  excuse,  or  about 
the  meanmg%  he  lays  it  down,  the  fact  of 
printing  ana  publishing  only  is  in  issue. 

The  draftsman  was  a  celebrated  party-paper, 
written  in  opposition  to  the  ministiy  of  sir 

«  tatchin'i  Case,  To).  14,  p.  1095.     ^ 
t  One  of  the  eouuid  for  the  proiecatioB  la  tbi» 
cauM. 
^  See  it  in  Vol.  17,  p.  667,  of  this  CoDeetioa 


1037] 


Jot  a  Seditious  LibeU 


A.  D.  178S. 


[lOSg 


Robert  Walpole,  by  many  men  of  high  rank   It  was  the  admission  of  the  whole  of  tha$ 
and  great  talents :  the  whole  party  espoused  i  party:  they  put  it  right;  they  put  it  upon  thai 


it.  it  was  thought  proper  to  prosecute  the 
famous  Hague  letter,  i  was  present  at  the 
)rial,  it  was  in  the  ^ear  1731 .  U  happens  ^ 
be  printed  in  the  State  Trials.*  There  was  a 
great  concourse  of  people ;  it  was  a  matter  of 
great  expectation,  and  many  persons  of  high 
jank  were  present  to  countenance  the  de- 
fendant. Mr.  Fazakerly  and  Mr.  Bootle  ^af- 
jterwards  sir  Thomas  Bootle)  were  the  leading 
counsel  for  the  defendant.  They  started  every 
objection  and  laboured  every  point.  When 
the  judge  over-ruled  them,  he  usually  said, 
**  If  1  am  wrong,  you  know  where  to  apply." 
The  judge  was  my  lord  Rivymond,  C.  J.  who 
had  been  eminent  at  the  bar  in  tiie  reign  of 

?uecn  Anne^  had  been  Solicitor  and  Attorney 
reneral  in  the  reien  of  Geoinze  1,  and  was  in- 
timately connected  with  sir  Edward  Northey, 
30  Uiat  he  must  have*  known  what  the  ancient 
practice  had  been.    The  case  itself  was  of 
peiX  expectation,  as  I  have  stated  to  you,  and 
It  was  so  blended  with  party  passion,  that  i( 
required  his  utmost  attention;  yet.  when  he 
^came  to  sum  up  and  direct  the  jury,  ne  doesit^ 
as  of  course,  just  in  the  saipe  manner  as  Mr. 
Justice  Buller  did,  ''  that  there  were  three 
|K>ints  for  consideration :  the  ^ict  of  publicar 
.tion ;  the  meaning  (those  t;wo  for  the Jui^) ; 
the  question  of  law  or  criminality,  for  the 
court  upou  the  record.'^    Mr.  FiuBaxerly  and 
Mr.  Bootle  were,  as  we  all  know,  able  lawyers ; 
they  were  connected  in  party  with  the  writers 
of  the  Craftsman. — They  never  thought  of 
complaining  to  the  court  of  ^  misdirection ; 
they  would  not  say  it  was  not  law:  they 
never  did  complain. — It  never  was  complained 
off  nor  did  any  idea  enter  their  heads,  that  it 
.was  not  agreeable  to  law.    Except  that  case 
in  1729  that  is  mentioned,  and  this,  the  trials 
for  libels  before  my  lord  Raymond  are  not 
printed,  nor  to  be.  found  in  any  notes.    But, 
fo  be  sure,  his  direction  in  all  was  to  the  same 
iBlFect.    I  by  accident  (from  mem(»ry  only  I 
^peak  now)  recollect  one  where  the  Craftsman 
was  acquitted;    and  t  recollect  it  irom  a 
£imous,  witty,  and  ingenious  ballad  that  was 
made  at  the  tii!(ie  by  Mr,  Pulteney;   and 
though  it  is  a  ballad.  I  will  cite  the  stanza  I 
remember  from  it,  oecause  it  will  show  you 
the  idea  of  the  able  men  in  opposition,  and 
^he  leaders  of  the  popidar  party  in  those 
days.    They  had  not  an  idea  of  assuming  that 
the  juT^  had  a  right  to  determine  upon  a  ques- 
tion of'^law,  but  they  put  it  upon  another  and 
much  better  ground.    The  stanza  I  (illi^de  to 
is  this : 

For  Sir  PhiHpt  well  knoirii 

That  his  mnuitnd<a 
Will  lerve  him  no  longer 

In  Tone  or  in  pvose ; 
For  twelve  honest  men  hnve  dedded  the  cnoie, 
Who  tre  jodges  of  fiiot,  thoagh  not  jndyes  of  laws. 


it.  Vol.  17.  p.  (AS. 
f  Sir  Philip  Yorke,  iifierwMds  Lord  Cbuioe)kMr 
Hardwickei  uma  AUvniey  GeneriL 


meaning  of  the  innueridos :  upon  that  the 
jury  acquitted  the  defendant;  and  they  never 
pmt  up  a  pretence  of  any  oth^  power,  except 
when  talkmg  to  the  jury  themselves. 

There  are  no  notes  that  I  know  of  (and  % 
think  the  bar  would  have  found  them  out 
upon  this  occasion,  if  there  had  been  any  that 
were  material),  there  are  no  notes  of  the  triala 
for  libels  before  my  lord  Hardwicke.  I  an^ 
sure  there  are  none  before  Lord  C.  J.  Lee  til^ 
the  year  1752,  when  the  case  ot  the  King  and^ 
Owen^came  on  before  hun.  This  happens  to^ 
be  printed  in  the  State  Trials,  though  it  is  in« 
correct,  but  sufl^cient  for  the  present  purpose. 
I  attended  that  trial  as  Solicitor-general.  4i^r4 
Chief  Justice  Lee  was  the  most  scrupulous  o]>- 
server  and  follower  of  precedents,  and  he  di-« 
rected  the  jury,  at  of  course,  in  the  same  way 
Mr.  Justice  Buller  nas  done. 

When  I  Mras  Attomey-GenerfJ,  I  prose* 
cuted  some  libels ;  one  I  remember  firom  the 
condition  and  circumstances  of  the  defendant ; 
he  was  found  guilt/.  He  was  a  comnuMi 
councilman  of  the  city  of  London :  and  I  re^ 
member  another  circumstance,  it  was  the 
first  conviction  in  the  city  of  London  thatha4 
been  for  97  years.  It  was  tljie  case  of  the 
Ring  and  Nuti ;  and  there  he  was  convicte^ 
under  the  very  same  direction,  before  ksa 
chief  justice  Ryder. 

In  the  year  1756  I  came  into  the  eifice  I 
now  hold.  Upon  the  first  prosecution  for  4 
libel  which  stood  in  my  paper,  I  think  (bql  | 
am  not  sure),  but  I  think  it  was  the  case  of 
the  Kine  and  Sbebbeare,  I  made  up  my  nund 
as  to  the  directio^  I  ought  to  give.  ^  I  ^ve 
uniformly  given  the  same  in  all,  almost  in  the 
same  form  of  words.  No  counsel  ever  com<r 
plained  of  it  to  the  court.  Upon  eveiy  de-* 
fendant  being  broudbt  up  for  judgment,  Ji 
have  alwavs  stated  we  direction  I  gave ;  and 
the  court  nas  always  assented  to  it.  The  de^ 
fence  of  a  ku^l  excuse  never  existed  i^  any 
case  before  me ;  therefore  I  have  told  the 
jury  if  they  were  satisfied  with  the  evidence 
of  the  publication,  and  that  the  meinin»s  of 
the  innuendos  were  as  stated,  they  ought  to 
find  the  defendant  guiltv ;  that  the  quesUpn 
of  law  was  uoon  record  for  the  judgment  of 
the  court.  Tnis  direction  being  as  of  course^ 
and  no  question  ever  raised  concerning  it  in 
court  (though  I  have  had  the  misfortune  to 
try  many  liEels  in  very  warm  times,  against 
defendants  most  obstinatelv  and  ractiously 
defended),  yet  the  direction  being  as  cfcourH^ 


It  appears  by  a  pamphlet  printed  in  1754>  thaif- 
lord  Mansfield  is  mistaken.    The  verse  rans  uiat : 

Sir  Philip  well  knowi. 

That  his  unoendos 
Will  senv  him  no  longer  in  verse  or  in  prose ; 
For  twelve  honest  men  have  detennin'd  the  oause, 
Whoarejudgei  aUki  ofthefaetSt  and  th»  lauu 

NcMe  to  *  Speeches  oiHiom.  Thomas Bnkins/' 
*»tMj7,|u#7|» 


II 


1039]  23  GEORGE  III.    Froceeding$  against  the  Dean  ofSU  Atapk^    [lUO 

and  no  objection  made,  it  passed  as  of  course, 
and  there  are  no  notes  oi  what  passed.  In 
one  case  of  the  Kins  and  Woodiall,  on  ac- 
count of  a  very  different  kind  of  question 
/but,  upon  account  of  another  question),  there 
nappens  to  be  a  report,  and  there  the  direction* 
I  nave  stated,  is  adopted  by  the  whole  court 
as  right,  and  the  ooctrine  of  Mr.  Justice 
Buller  is  laid  down  in  express  terms.  Such  a 
judicial  practice  in  the  precise  point  from  the 
llevolution,  as  I  think,  down  to  the  present 
day,  is  not  to  be  shaken  by  arguments  of  "ge- 
neral theory^  or  popular  declamation.  Every 
species  of  cnminal  prosecution  has  something 
lie^iiliar  i^  ^e  mode  of  procedure ;  therefore 
general  propositions,  applied  to  all,  lend  only 
to  complicate  and  emDarrass  the  q\ie8tion. 
No  deouction  or  conclusion  can  be  drawn 
from  what  a  jury  may  do,  from  the  form  of 
aroeedure,  to  what  they  ought  to  do  upon  the 
limdamentalprinciples  of  theoonstitution  and 
;the  reason  of^tfae  thing,  if  they  will  act  with 
kiieantv  and  good  conscience. 

The  nindamental  definition  of  trial  by  juiy 
depends  upon  a  universal  maxim  that  is  witli- 
«>ut  an  exception.  Though  a  definition  or 
maxim  in  law,  without  an  exception,  it  is  said, 
is  hardly  to  be  found,  yet  this  I  take  to  be  a 
maxim  withoutvan  exception :  Ad  giutstionem 
juris  noA  respondent  juratcrts  ;  ad  quastionem 
Jacti  non  respondent  judices. 

Whett  a  question  can  be  severed  by  the 
form  ofpleadme,  the  distinction  is  preserved 
upon  the  face  ofthe  record,  and  the  jury  can- 
not encroach  upon  the  jurisdiction  of  the 
Co\ttX ;  where,  by  the  form  of  pleading,  the 
two  queslions  are  blended  togcliier,  and  can- 
not be  separated  upon  the  face  of  the  record, 
the  distinction  is  preserved  by  the  honesty  of 
the  jury.  The  constitution  trusts,  that,  under 
the  direction  of  a  judge,  they  will  not  usurp 
a  jurisdiction  which  is  not  in  their  province. 
They  do  not  know,  and  are  not  presumed  to 
know  the  law;  they  are  not  sworn  to  decide 
the  law ;  they  are  not  required  to  decide  the 
law.— If  it  appears  upon  the  record,  they  ought 
to  leave  it  there,  or  they  may  find  the  facts  sub- 
ject to  the  opinion  ofthe  Court  upon  the  law. 
But  fiirther,  upon  the  reason  of  the  thing, 
and  the  eternal  principles  of  justice,  the  jury 
ought  not  to  assume  the  jurisdiction  of  the 
law.  As  I  sakl  before,  they  do  not  know,  and 
are  not  presumed  to  laiow  any  thine  of  the 
matter;  they  do  not  understand  the  language 
in  which  it  is  conceived,  or  the  meaning  of 
the  terms.  They  have  no  rule  to  go  by  but 
their  affections  and  wishes.  It  is  said,  if  a 
man  gives  a  right  sentence  upon  hearin?  one 
side  only,  he  is  a  wicked  judge,  because  lie  is 
right  by  chance  only,  and  has  neglected  taking 
the  proper  method  to  be  informed ;  so  the 
jury  who  usurp  the  judicature  of  law,  though 
they  happen  to  lie  right,  are  themselves 
wrone,  because  they  are  right  by  chance  only, 
and  have  ngt  taken  the  constitutional  way  of 
deciding  the  question.  It  is  the  duty  of  the 
judge,  in  all  cases  of  general  justice,  to  tell 


the  jury  how  to  do  right,  though  they  have  it 
tn  their  potter  to  do  wrong,  which  is  a  matter 
entirely  between  God  and  their  ovn  con- 
sciences. 

To  be  free,  is  to  live  under  a  government 
by  law.  The  liberty  of  the  press  consists  io 
printing  without  any  previous  license,  subject 
to  the  consequences  of  law.  The  licentioss- 
ness  of  the  press  is  Pandors^s  box,  the  some 
of  every  evu.  Miserable  b  the  conditioQof 
individuals,  dangerdus  is  the  jcondition  of  the 
state,  if  there  is  no  certain  law,  or,  which  b 
the  same  thin^  no  certain  administration  of 
law  to  protect  individuals,  or  to  guard  the  stale. 

Jealousy  of  leaving  th%  law  to  the  Court,  as 
in  other  cases,  so  in  the  case  of  libels,  is  now. 
in  the  present  state  of  things,  pucrile'rantand 
declamation.  The  judges  are  totally  inde- 
pendent ofthe  ministers  that  mav  happen  to 
he,  and  of  the  kin^  himself.  Their  temota- 
tion  is  rather  to  me  popularity  of  the  day. 
But  I  agree  with  the  observation  cited  by 
Mr.  Cowper*  Jrom  Mr.  J.  Foster,  '  that  a  po- 
^  pular  judge  is  an  odious  and  a  pemidous 
*  chaxacter.'t 

The  judgment  of  the  Court  b  not  final ;  in 
tlie  last  resort  it  may  be  rcwwed  in  the 
House  of  Lords,  where  the  opinion  of  all  the 
judges  is.  taken. 

In  opposition  to  this,  what  b  contended 
for  ?  That  tlie  law  shall  be  in  every  particular 
cause  what  any  twelve  men^  who  snaiU  happen 
to  be  the  jury^  shall  be  inclined  to  thmk, 
liable  to  no  review,  and  subject  to  no  control, 
under  all  the  prejudices  of  the  popular  cry  of 
the  day,  and  under  all  the  bias  of  interest  in 
this  town,  where  thousands,  more  or  less,  are 
concerned  in  the  publication  of  newspapers, 
paragraphs,  and  pamphlets.  Under  such  an 
admuiistralion  ot  law,  no  man  'could  tell,  no 
couQsel  could  advise,  whether  a  paper  was  or 
was  not  punbhable. 

I  am  glad  that  I  am  not  bound  to  subscnbe 
to  such  an  absurdity,  such  a  solecism  in  po- 
litics.— Agreeable  to  the  liMi/or/ii  judicial  prac- 
tice since  the  Revolution,  warranted  by  the 
fundamental  principles  of  the  constitution,  of 
the  trial  by  jury,  and  upon  the  reason  and 
fitness  of  the  thing,  we  are  all  of  opinion  that 
this  motion  should  be  rejecte<l,  and  this  nuc 
discharged.  { 

Note.  Although  the  Court  was  unanirooui 
in  discharging  the  rule,  Mr.  Justice  Willes,ui 
delivering  nis  opinion,  sanctioned  by  his  au- 
thority Mr.  Erskine's  argument,  that  uyoxit 
plea  of  Not  guilty,  or  upon  the  general  issue 
on  an  indictment  or  information  for  a  libel, 
the  jury  had  not  only  the  paoer^  but  a  con^ 
tutional  right,  to  examine,  if  they  thought  fit, 
the  criminality  or  innocence  of  the  pap« 
charged  as  a  libel ;  declaring  it  to  be  bb  set- 

*  One  of  the  counsel  for  the  proieculioa. 

t  See  vol.  19.  p.  11  IS. 

t  In  ft  Note  to  the1CiBgftgftiDstWitfaen,STem 

r4'  428,  U  aleas  fuU  report  of  tfab  JvdpMftt. 


1041] 


Ji^  u  Seditious  Libel. 


A.  D.  178S. 


11042 


Ikd  opinion,  that,  notwithstandins  the  pro- 
duction of  sufficient  proof  of  the  puolication, 
the  junr  might  upon  such  examination  acquit 
the  defendant  generally,  though  in  opposition 
to  the  directions  of  the  judge^  without  render- 
ing^ themselves  liable  either  to  attaint,  fine, 
or  imprisonment,  and  that  such  verdict  of  de- 
liverance could  in  no  way  be  set  aside  by  the 
Court* 


Afterwards,  on  the  part  of  the  Defendant, 
iBras.made  a  motion  in  arrest  of  Judgment. 
The  following  account  of  Mr.  Erskine's  Ar- 
gument in  support  of  th^t  motion  is  copied 
into  the  *  Speeches,  of  the  Hon.  Thomas  Er- 
fikine'  from  a  newspaper  published  on  the  day 
ttfier  the  argument  was  delivered : 

Mr.  Erskine  moved  the  Court  to  arrest  the 
judgment  in  the  case  of  the  King  against  the 
Dean  of  St.  Asaph  upon  two  grounds :  first, 
l)ecause  even  if  the  indictment  sufficiently 
charged  a  libel,  the  verdict  given  by  the  jury 
^eae  not  sufficient  to  warrant  the  judgment  of 
the  Court;  and' secondly,  because  the  indict- 
ment did  not  contain  any  legal  charge  of  a 
libel. 

On  the  first  objection,  he  again  insisted  on 
the  right  of  the  jury  to  find  a  eeneral  verdict 
on  the  merit  of  the  writing  charged  on  the 
Tecord  as  a  libel,  notwithstanding  the  late 
judgment  of  the  Court; — and  declared  he 
should  maintain  it  there,  and  every  where 
else,  as  long  as  he  lived,  till  the  contrary 
should  be  settled  by  act  of  parliament  He 
then  ar^ed  at  considerable  length,  that 
.  the  verdict,  as  given  bjr  the  jury,  was  neither 
a  general,  nor  a  special  verdict,  and  com- 
plamed  of  the  alteration  made  upon  the  re- 
cord without  the  authority  of  the  Court. 

He  said,  that  the  only  reason  for  his  in- 
jesting  on  his  first  objection  at  such  leneth, 
was  tne  importance  of  the  principle  which  it 
involved,  and  the  danger  oi  the  precedent  it 
established;  although  he  was  so  certain  of 
prevailing  upon  his  second  objection,  that  he 
considered  it  to  be  almost  injustice  to  the 
Court  to  argue  it  All  who  knew  him  in  and 
out  of  the  profession,  could  witness  for  him, 
that  he  had  ever  treated  the  idea  of  ultimately 
prevailing  against  him,  upon  such  an  indict- 
ment, to  be  perfectly  ridiculous,  and  that  his 
only  object  in  all  tne  trouble  which  he  had 
given  t6  the  Court  and  to  himself,  in  dis- 
cussing the  expediency  of  a  new  trial,  was,  to 
resist  a  precedent,  which  he  originally  thought 
and  stilt  cont'mued  to  think  was  illegal  and 
unjustifiable: — the  warfare  was  safe  for  his 

^  This  JndgmeDt  may  be  considered  as  most  for- 
tanata  for  Ifae  publio,  sinee,  in  cunseqaenoe  of  the 
verjr  general  interest  taken  in  this  caaae,  the  poblic 
aund  was  at  last  fnlly  ripe  for  the  Libel  Bill ;  which 
.  was  soon  after  moved  in  the  House  of  Commons  by 
Mr,  Pox,  and  seconded  by  Mr*  Bnkiof  •  £8eo  vol. 
^  p*  36«J 

VOL.  XXI. 


client,  because  he  knew  he  could  put  an  end 
to  the  prosecution  any  bour  he  pleased,  by 
the  objection  he  would  now  at  last  submit  to 
the  Court  It  did  not  require  the  eye  of  a 
lawyer  to  see  that,  even  if  the  Dialo^e,  in- 
stead of  being  innocent  and  meritorious,  as 
he  thought  it,  had  been  the  foulest  libel  ever 
composed  or  pubUshed,  the  indictment  was 
drawn  in  such  a  manner  as  to  render  judg- 
ment absolutely  impossible.  He  said,  that  if 
he  "had  been  answerinjg  in  his  own  person  to 
the  charge  of  publishing  the  Dialo^e  com- 
plained of,  he  should  have  rejected  with  scorn 
the  protection  of  a  deficient  indictment,  would 
have  boldly  met  the  general  question,  and 
holding  out  defiance  to  the  prosecutor,  would 
have  called  upon  his  counsel  to  show  what 
sentence,  or  word,  though  lyrested  with  ali 
the  force  ingenuity  can  apply  to  confound 
grammar  ana  distort  language,  could  be  tor- 
tured into  a  violation  of  any  one  principle  of 
the  government : — ^but  that,  standing  as  coun- 
sel for  another,  he  should  not  rest  his  defence 
even  upon  that  strong  foundation,  but,  afler 
having  maintained  as  he  had  done  at  the 
trial,  Sie  innocence,  or  rather  the  merit  of  the 
Dialogue,  should  entrenc;h  himself  behind 
every  objection  which  the  forms  of  law  endr*. 
bled  him  to  cast  up/  ;        « 

The  second  objection  was,  that  the  indict- 
ment  did  not  contain  a  sufficient  charge  of  a 
libel  of  and  concerning  the  king  and  his  go- 
vernment :-— that  though  the  Court,  by  judg- 
ing' of  libels  of  that  nature,  invested  itself 
with  a  very  large  discretion ;  yet  it,  nevertlie- 
less,  was  a  discretion  capable  of  being  mea- 
sured by  very  intelligible  rules  of  law,  and 
within  which  rules  he  was  persuaded  the 
Coiurt  would  strictly  confine  itself. 

The  first  was^  that  the  Court,  i^  judging  of 
the  libellous  or  seditious  nature  of  the  paper 
in  question,  could  only  collect  it  from  the  ui- 
dictment  itself,  and  could  supply  nothing  from 
any  extrinsic  source;  and  that,  therefore, 
whatever  circumstances  were  necessary  to 
constitute  the  erime  imputed,  could  not  be 
supplied  from  any  report  of  the  evidence  nor 
fifom  any  inference  from  the  verdict,  but  must 
be  set  out  upon  the  record. 

That  rule  was  founded  in  great  wisdom, 
and  formed  the  boundary  between  the  pro- 
vinces of  the  Jury  and  the  Court;  because,  if 
any  extrinsic  circumstances,  independent  of 
the  plain  and  ordinary  meaning  of  the  writ- 
ing were  necessary  to  explain  it,  and  point  its 
criminal  application ;  those  facts  must  be  put 
upon  the  record,  for  three  reasons : 

First,  that  the  charge  might  contain^  such 
a  description  of  the  cnme,  that  the  defendant 
might  know  what  crime  he  was  called  upon 
to  answer.  . « 

Secondly,  that  the  application  of  the  writ- 
ing to  those  circumstances  which  constituted 
its  criminality  might  be  submitted  as  facts  to 
the  jury,  who  were  the  sole  judges  of  any 
meaning  which  depended  upon  extrinsic 
proof. 

dX 


J 


lOiS]  23  GEORGE  III.    Ptoceedings  against  the  Decn  of  St.  Asaj^    [1G14 


Thirdly,  that  the  Court  might  see  such  a 
'definite  crime,  that  they  mi^ht  apply  the 
punishment  which  the  law  inflicted. 

He  admitted,  that  wherever  a  writing  was 
expressed  in  such  clear  and  unamhiguous 
words  as  in  itself  to  constitute  a  libel,  with- 
out the  help  of  any  explanation,  all  averments 
and  innuendos  were  unnecessary ; — ^and  there- 
fore, if  it  could  be  estal)Ushed  that  the  pamph- 
let in  question,  if  taken  off  the  dusty  shelves 
of  a  library,  and  looked  at  in  the  pinre  ab- 
stract, without  attention  to  times  or  circum- 
stances, without  application  to  any  faots  not 
upon  record,  and  without  any  light  cast  upon 
it  finom  without,  contained  raise,  pernicious, 
illegal,  and  unconstitutional  doctrines,  in  their 
tendency  destructive  of  the  government,  it 
would  unquestionably  be  a  libel.  But  if  the 
terms  of  the  writing  were  general,  and  the 
criminality  imputed  to  it  consisted  in  criminal 
allusions  or  references  to  matter  dehott  the 
writing ;  then,  although  every  man  who  reads 
such  a  writing  might  put  the  same  construc- 
tion on  it ;  yet  when  it  was  the  charge  of  a 
criine,  and  Uie  party  was  liable  to  be  punished 
for  it,  there  wanted  something  more ;  it  ought 
to  receive  a  juridical  sense  on  the  record,  and, 
as  the  facts  were  to  be  decided  by  the  jury, 
they  only  could  decide  whether  the  applica- 
tion of  general  expressions,  or  terms  of  re- 
ference, or  allusions,  as  the  case  might  be,  to 
matters  extrinsic,  was  just;  nor  could  the 
general  expressions  themselves  be  extended^ 
even  by  the  jury,  beyond  their  ordinary  mean- 
ing, without  an  averment- to  give  them  cog- 
nizance of  such  extended  import; — nor  couM 
the  Court,  even  after  a  verdict  of  guilty,  with- 
out such  averment  infer  any  thing  from  the 
.  finding,  but  must  pronounce  strictly  according 
to  the  just  and  grammatical  sense  of  the  lan- 
guage on  the  record.  The  Court,  by  declar- 
ing Tibel  or  not  libel,  to  be  a  question  of  law, 
must  be  supposed  b^  that  declaration  not  to 
assume  any  jurisdiction  over  facts,  which  was 
the  province  of  the  jury ;  out,  only  to  deter- 
mine that,  if  the  woirds  of  tie  writing  without 
averment,  or  with  averments  Ibund  to  be  true 
by  the  jury,  contained  criminal  matter,  it 
would  be  pronounced  to  be  a  libel  accordins 
to  the  rules  of  law : — ^whereas,  if  the  libel 
could  only  be  inferred  from  its  application  to 
temething  extrinsic,  however  reasonable  or 
probable  such  application  might  be,— no 
Court  could  possibly  make  it  for  want  of  the 
averment,  without  which  the  jury  could  have 
no  jurisdiction  over  the  HwcXa  extrinsic,  by 
reference  to  which  only  the  writing  became 
criminal. 

The  next  question  was,  tiow  the  application 
.of  tho  writing  to  any  particular  object  was  to 
be  made  upon  the  record :  that  was  likewise 
settled  in  the  case  of  the  Ring  and  Home.* 

*  Im  all  cases  those  Acts  which  are  descrip- 
'  tire  of  the  chaige  must  be  introduced  on  the 

4^  S«e  lord  cbicf  jufttee  De  Onft  Aigwnat  in 
Pom.  Proo.  in  Hut  Caw,  rd.  20,  p.  791. 


'  record  bir  averments,  in  opposition  to  argn- 
'  ment  ana  inference.' 

He  said,  that  where  facts  were  necessarj 
in  order  to  apply  the  matter  of  the  libel  to 
them,  it  was  oone  introductorily,  and  when 
no  new  fact^as  necessary,  but  only  ambi- 
guous words  were  to  be  explained,  it  wst 
done  by  the  innuoido ;  bat  that  the  innuendo 
could  not  in  itself  eidai^ge  the  matter  wbicb 
it  was  employed  to  explain,  without  an  ante- 
cedent introduction  to  refer  .to;  but  coupJed 
with  such  introductory  matter  it  could. 

He  said,  nothins  repiained  but  to  apply 
those  unquesttionabte  principles  to  the  presKOt 
indictment,  and  tliat  application  divided  itself 
into  two  heads : 

First,  whether  the  words  of  the  Dialogue, 
considered  purely  inJhe  abstract,  without  be- 
ing taken  to  be  a  seditious  exhortation  ad- 
dressed to  the  people,  in  cdbsequence  of  tbe 
present  state  of  the  nation,  as  connected  with 
the  subject  matter  of  it,  could,  possiblv  be 
considered  to  be  a  hbel  on  the  king  and  his 
government 

Secondly,  whether,  if  such  reference  or  al- 
lusion was  necessary  to  render  it  criminal, 
there  were  sufficient  averments  on  the  record 
to  enable  the  Court  to  make  the  criminal  ap- 
plication of  othenvise  innocent  doctrines  coo- 
sistently  with  the  rules  of  law. 

He  said,  he  should  therefore  take  the  Dia- 
logue, and  show  the  Court  that  the  whole 
scope  and  every  particular  part  of  it  were  me- 
ritorious. 

Here  lord  Mansfield  said  to  Mr.  Erskine^ 
that  having  laid  down  his  principles  of  iudz- 
ment,  the  counsel  for  the  prosecution  shouU 
point  out  the  parts  they  insisted  on  as  sufB- 
cientiv  charged  to  be  libellous,  and  that  he 
would  be  heard  in  reply.  On  which  Mr. 
Bearcroft,  Mr.  Cowoer,  Mr.  Leycester,  and 
Mr.  Bower,  Were  all  heard ;  and  endeavoured 
with  great  ingenuity  to  show  that  the  Dia- 
logue was  on  the  lace  of  it  a  libel:  butoa 
Mr.  Erskine's  rising  to  reply,  the  Court  said, 
they  would  not  give  him  any  further  trouble, 
as  they  were  unanimously  of  opinion,  that  the 
indictment  was  defective,  and  that  the  judgn 
ment  should  be  arrested. 

The  Court  went  ufwn  the  principles  of  the 
case  of  the  King  against  Home,  cited  by  Mr. 
Erskine ;  saying  there  were  no  averments  to 
point  the  application  of  the  paper  as  a  libel 
on  tlie  king  and  his  government;  and  the 
dean  was  therefore  finally  discharged  from 
the  prosecution. 

Mr.  Justice  Willes  threw  out,  that  if  the 
indictment  had  been  propeiiy  drawn,  it  might 
have  been  supported ;  but  lord  Mansfield  aiM 
Mr.  Justice  Buller  did  not  g^ve  any  such  o^ 
nion,  confining  themselves  strictly  to  the 
question  before  the  Court. 


The  judgment  was  accordingly  aitested, 
and  no  new  proceedings  were  ever  towi  upon 


lOiS]     Proceeding^  against  George  Stration  and  others.    A.  D.  1779.' 


[1046 


the  subject  tt^inst  the  dean  or  the  printer 
employed  by  liixn.  His  adversaries  were,  it 
is  beheved,  sufficiently  «^isposed  to  distress 
.him;  but  they  were  probaoly  aware  of  the 
co«iseqnences  of  bringing  the  doctrines  main- 
tained by  the  court  of  KingVbench  into  a 
second  pubUc  examination,* 


In  the  New  Annual  Register  (Principal  Oc- 
currences, p.  97)  for  the  year  1?84,  is  given 
under  date  December  4th,  an  account  ofbon- 
£resy  illuminations,  and  other  testimonies  of 
attachment  and ,  gratulation,  with  which,  in 
honour  of  the  dean's  concern  in  this  case,  his 
arrival  at  the  house  of  his  venerable  father  at 

*  Note  to  lord  ErskiuB's  Speediefl. 


Twjrford,  near' Winchester,  was  celebrated  by 
the  inhabitants  of  the  neighbourhood. 


ADDENDUM 

To  the  No(e  in  page  857. 

Together  with  the  office  of  Chief  Justice  of 
Chester,  Mr.  Kenyon  held  that  of  the  King's 
Attorney  General.  There  would  have  been 
something  unseemly  in  that  officer's  presiding 
at  the  trial  of  an  indictment  for  the  publica- 
tion of  a  seditious  libel.  With  respect  to  the 
Kin^s  Attorney  General's  holdmg  the  office 
of  Chief  Justice  of  Chester,  see  sir  Samuel 
Romilly's  observations  in  th/s  House  of  Com- 
mons, March  1, 1814.  New  Pari.  Deb.  vol. 
27,  p.  330. 


V 

567.  Proceedings  against  George  StrattoNj  Henry  Brooke^  Charles 
Floyer^  .and  George  M ac^ay^  esqrs.  on  an  Information  filed 
against  them^  by  his  Majesty's  Attorney  General^  for  a  Mis-i 
demeanor^  in  arresting^  imprisoning^  and  deposing  George. 
Lord  Pigotj  Commander  in  Chief  of  the  Forces  in  Fort  St. 
George^  and  President  and  Governor  of  the  Settlement  of 
Madras,  in  the  East-Indies:  19  &  20 George  III.  a.  d.  1779, 
1780. 


The  Report  giyen  below  of  theTrial  of  Messrs. 
StrattOD,  Brooke,  Floyer,  and  Mackay,  in 
the  court  of  King's-bench,  was  taken  in 
short-hand  by  Mr.  Blanchard,  but  was  never 
printed.  For  the  communication  of  Mr. 
Blanchard's  MS.  Notes,  I  am  indebted  to 
Mr.  Henry  Smith,  npw  (April  1814)  Soli- 
citor to  the  Eastr-India  Company,  whose 
fkther  was  engaged  on  behalf  of  the  prose- 
cution. 

•  It  appears  from  the  Journal  of  the  House  of 
Commons,  that  on  April  16th,  If  79,  in  a 
Committee  of  the  whole  House,  to  which  the 
consideration  of  certain  papers  relating  to  the 
afiairs  of  the  East-India  Company  had  been 

.referred,  it  was  resolved, 

^  That  it  appears  to  this  Committee,  that 
Ceorge  lord  P%ot,  a  member  of  this  House, 
'was,  on  the  S4th  of  August,  1776,  arrested 
by  a  military  force,  and  carried  and  confined 
under  a  roihtary  force  at  the  house  of  major 
Home,  at  a  place  called  the  Mount,  about 
nine  miles  distant  from  the  town  of  Madras 

'  and  Fort  St.  Geor^,  of  which  he  was  governor 

and  commander  m  chief;  and  that  the  said 

George  lord  Pigot  continued  in  confinement 

>   under  a  milita^  force  /or  upwards  of  eight 

'Snonths,  that  is^  from  the  S4to  day  of  August^ 


1776,  until  the  11th  day  of  May  following^ 
when  he  died. 

"  That  it  appears  to  this  Committee,  that 
Geo.  Stratton,  Henry  Brooke,  Charles  Floyer, 
Afchdale  Palmer,  Francis  Jourdan,  and  Geo. 
Mackay,  esqrs.  did,  on  the  2Sdday  of  August 
1776,  form  themselves  into  a  council,  ancTdid 
confer  the  command*  of  the  army  and  the  gar- 
rison of  Fort  St.  .George  on  colonel  James 
Stuart,  ordering  him  to  arrest  the  person  of 
George  lord  Pijjot,  theh*  ^vemor  'and  com- 
mander in  chief,  and  to  put  the  fort,  garrison, 
and  fort-house,  under  their  commaiKL 

^  That  it  appears  to  this  Committee,  that 
the  Court  of  Directors  of  the  East-India  Com- 
pany have,  by  letters  of  the  4th  of  July,  1777, 
and  of  the  8Sd  of  December,  1778,  to  their 
presidency  at  Madras,  ordered,  that  courts- 
martial  should  be  held  for  the  trial  of  colo- 
nel. James  Stuart,  colonel  Edingtoun,  major 
Home,  and  captain  Lysaught,  for  havme  aix* 
rested  and  confined,  imder  a  militiuy  rorce. 
their  governor  and  commander  in  chie^ 
Geom  lord  Pigot. 

**  That  it  is  -the  opinion  of  this  Committee, 
that  an  humble  Address  be  presented  to  his 
Majesty,  praying  his  Biajesty  that  he  would 
be  graciously  pleased  to  give  directions  to  his 
Attorney  General,  to  prosecute  George  Strat- 
ton, Henry  Brooke,  Charles  Fioyer,  and 
Qeoi^e  MaclLay,  esqrs.  for  ordering  their  go- 


1047]  19  GEORGE  IIL         Proceedhgi  againa  George  StraUw        [1048 

1468.  Since  reported  in  1  Bbckslone,  460.] 
where  the  prosecution  was  by  indictment,  on 
a  motion  to  quash  the  first,  another  having 
been  found,  the  Court  would  not  permit  f^ 
but  upon  terms,  and  by  consent;  and  said, 
that  it  was  by  no  means  a  motion  of  course. 
That  in  all  cases  where  indictmcnU  have  ben 
quashed  on  the  motion  of  the  prosecutor,  it 
has  been  on  the  ground  of  insumdenof,  [Vide 
sir  Wm.  Withipo&sease,H.  4Car.  1.  Cro.Cir, 
U7.  Rexi^.  Swan  and  JeflFerys,FosL  104]  which 
was  not  pretended  in  the  present  instance. 
That  in  the  case  of  Rex  v,  Piimell,  [I  Wilson, 
£39.  Since  reported  in  i  Blackst.  S7\  which 
Was  an  information  filed  ex  officio  by  su-  Dud- 
ley Ryder,  then  Attorney  General,  agamslihe 
defendant  as  vice-chancellor,  and  a  justice  of 
peace  in  the  university  of  Oxford,  the  Attoraey 
General  had  put  an  end  to  the  nrsft  infbran- 
tion,  without  any  application  to  the  Court,  by 
a  noli  proiequi,  but  that  he  had  done  this  m 
the  express  order  of  the  king,  which  order 
was  slated  in  his  warrant  to  the  master  of  the 
crown-office  [sir  James  Burrow3  to  $ntcr  the 
noli  prosequi.  That,  at  all  events,  the  Court 
would  not  grant  the  motion  without  obligng 
the  prosecutor  to  pay  costs  [H.  6  Geo.  8.  Kex 
v.  Moore,  2  Str.  946.]  ,  . 

The  Solicitor  General,  in  support  of  the 
rule,  observed,  that  the  defendant  could  not 
suffer  any  injury  by  the  quashing  of  the  in- 
formation, because  the  crown  might  go  on 
to  trial,  and  judgment,  on  the  new  one,  Ml- 
withstandmg  the  pendency  of  the  other,  for 
that,  on  indictments,  or  informsitioos  for 
crimes,  the  pendency  of  another  prosecutioo 
for  the  same  offence  cannot  be  pleaded,  as  jt 
may  to  informations  for  penalties.*  [SirW^ 
liam  Withipole's  case,  Rex  c.  Swan  and  J* 
ferys.]  He  said,  that  leave  to  quash  indK*- 
ments  is  often  granted  in  the  first  instaacei 
without  a  rule  to  shew  cause. 

Lord  Manifield  having  asked  the  Sdiattf 
General  if  there  was  any  authority  or  pwe- 
dent  for  quashing  an  mformation  ex  tjfeA 
upon  the  application  of  the  prosecutor,  he  ad- 
mitted that  he  knew  of  none,  and  his  lora^ 
said,  that  if  it  was  proper  to  stop  the  infer- 
malion,  he  did  not  see  why  the  Attonigr  Ge- 
neral might  not  do  it  by  entenng  a  »•«>»• 
Mtftti,  wittiout  the  interference  of  the  Court. 

BuUer,  Justice.— What  the  Soliator  Ge- 
neral has  stated,  viz.  that  the  pendency  v 
the  first  information  would  be  no  plea  to  tl» 
second,  is  decisive  agsdnst  this  motion.  It* 
certainly  not  of  course  to  quash  indictiiioitfc 


weraor  and  commander  in  chief  George  lord 
Pkot,  to  be  arrested  and  confined  under  a 
xiSitary  force;  they  being,  returned  to  Eng- 
land, and  now  within  the  jurisdiction  of  his 
Msyesty's  courts  of  Westminster-hall."* 

The  above  resolutions  were  on  the  same 
day  -reported  to  the  House  and  ^g|^^^  ^^' 
The  I]x)use  thereupon  ordered,  "That  the 
9aid  Address  be  presented  to  his  majesUr  by 
such  members  of  this  House  as  are  of  his 
majesty's  most  honourable  privy  council:" 
and,  on  April  19th,  "  The  lord  Hmchinbrook 
reported  to  the  House  that  their  Address  of 
Friday  last  (praying  his  msyesty,  that  he 
wouia  be  graciously  pleased  to  give  directions 
to  his  Attorney  General^  to  prosecute  George 
Slratton,  Henry  Brooke,  Charles  Floyer,  and 
George  Mackay,  esqrs.  for  ordering  theil"  go- 
vernor and  commander  in  chief  George  lord 
Pigot,  to  be  arrested  and  confined  under  a  mi- 
litary force ;  they  being  returned  to  England, 
and  now  within  the  jurisdiction  of  his  ma- 
jesty's courts  of  Westminster-hall)  had  been 
presented  to  his  majesty;  and  that  his  ma- 
jesty had  commanded  him  to  acquaint  this 
House,  that  he  will  give  directions  as  required 
by  the  said  Address./'  • 

.  Accpr,dingly,  in  the  ensuing  Trinity  Term, 
Mr.  Attorney  General  (Wedderburn)  filed  an 
information  against  Messrs.  Stratton,  Brooke, 
Floyer,  and  Mackay,  and  in  the  succeeding 
Michaelmas  Term,  on  an  application  to  quash 
the  said  information,  the  following  proceed- 
iaga  took  place : 

Tke  Kino  against  St£atton  and  others. 

m 

November  11,  1779. 

An  information  had  been  filed  ex  officio,  by 
the  Attorney  General,  in  consequence  of  a 
resolution  of  the  House  of  Commons,  against 
the'ddendants,  for  imprisoning  the  govempr 
(lord  Pigot)  and  subverting  the  government 
of  the  settiement  at  Madras,  where  they  were 
members  of  the  council.  The  defendants  had 
pleaded,  and  the;parties  were  at  issue,  and 
nptice  of  trial  given  for  the  sittings  after  last 
term ;  but  the  prosecutor  countermanded  the 
notice,  and,  on  Tuesday  the  9th  of  November, 
the  Solicitcr  General  applied  for  a  rule  to 
shew  cause,  why  the  inrormation  should  not 
be  quashed,  suggesting,  as  the  ground  of  the 
application,  that  another  was  ready  to  be  filed, 
which  stated  the  ofience  more  particularly, 
fuad  was  better  adapted  to  the  nature  of  the 
charge.  The  rule  was  granted^  and  cause  was, 
this  day,  shewn  by  Dunning,  Wilson,  Arden, 
and  Erskine, 

They  said,  there  never  bad  been  an  appli- 
cation of  thid  sort,  but  that  in  the  case  of^Rex 
9,  Philip  Carteret  Webb  [E.  4  Geo.  S.  3  Burr. 

*  TImm  molaliont,  together  with  tlio  speeohea 
of  admiral  Pigot,  brother  to  lord  Pigot»  who  pro« 
|lQ«Bd  theiB^  and  of  Mr.  Str«ltoii  and  thd  other  gen- 
tl^mea  who  took  part  in  the  debate*  atq  iiuerted  in 
yn Now  FteLHist  toL^(^  pp. 3«3 eCie^ 


• 


uiformatioik  depending  nay  be  fjeaded  »"J"fJ 
ment  to  an  information  qui  tarn,  and  «•••  ^**  •) 
261.  1  Roll.  Rep.  49,  50,  134.  Bnl  K"^  j! 
thing  on  that  point  aa  to  other  infortmtwnjtm 
B.  2.  c  34,  $  1,  he  iaya.  generally.  Ihat  an»[ 
proMcntion  depending  is  no  good  pka  to  «a  imw^ 
ment,  aa  it  i«  to  an  appeal  or  informaiion>  M|  !^ 
rafera  ta  tho  former  paamge*  and  therofcr^f"*"^ 
meaat  qaljy  fsk  tea  inthnMtinMfc 


1049] 


and  oiher»p/or  depamig  Lor  Pi^oi* 


A.  D.  1779. 


[1050 


did  if  the  Court  hatf  even  permitted  it  in  the 
first  instance^  it  has  been  because  they  gave 
eredit  to  the  codnsel  in  stating  the  insuffi 
ciency. — The  rule  discharged.^ 

DouglasU  RepoHfy  p.  S97. 

In  conseauence  of  this  decision,  the  Attor 
ney  General  entered  a  nolle  prdtequi  on  the 
oridnal  information^  and  in  the  same  term 
fil^  the  following  r 

Of  Michaelmas  Term,  in  the  20th  year  of  the 
reign  of  King  George  the  Sd,- 

Middlaex,  to  wit  Be  it  remembered,  that 
Alexander  Wedderbmu,  esq.  Attorney  Ge- 
neral of  our  present  soverei^  lord  the  kine, 
who  for  our  said  lord  the  king  in  this  behut 
prosecateth,in  his  proper  person  cometh  here 
into  the  court  Of  our  said  lord  the  kine,  before 
the  king  himself  at  Westminster  on  Monday 
next  after  the  octave  of  St  Martin  in  this 
same  term,  and  for  our  said  lord  the  king 
giveth  tiie  Court  here  to  understand  and  be 
informed,  that  the  United  Company  of  Mer- 
chants of  England  trading  to  the  East-Indies, 
on  t)ie  4th  day  of  April,  m  the  15  th  year  of 
the  .reign  of  our  sovereign  loxd  Geoi^ge,  the 
third,  now 'king  of  Great  Bdtain,  &c.  and 
long  before,  were  and  from  thence  hitherto 
have  been  and  still  are  possessed  of  the  fort 
mnd  garrison  of  Fort  St  George,  and  the  city 
or  town  of  Madras  Patnam,  m  the  East  In- 
dies, which  during  all  the  said  time  have 
been  and  still  are  one  of  the  said  Company's 
principal  settlements  in  India,  and  of  other 
settlements  and  factories  on  the  coasts  of 
Coromandel  and  Orixa.  And  the  said  Attor- 
ney General  of  our  said  lord  the  kins  for  our 
said  lord  the  king,  further  giveth  the  Court 
here  to  understand  and  be  informed,  that 
heretofore,  to  wit,  on  the  said  4th  day  of 
A|»ril,  in  the  15th  year  aforesaid,  at  West- 
minster, in  the  said  county  of  Middlesex,  the 
said  United  Company  of  Merchants  of  Eng- 
land trading  to  the  East-Indies,  reposing 
especial  trust  and  confidence-  in  sir  George 
Pigot,  hart,  commonly  called  George  lord 
Figot,  baron  Pigot  of  Patshul  in  the  kmgdom 
of  Ireland,  did,  by  their  deed  in  writing,  sealed 
with  their  common  seal,  constitute  and  ap- 
point him  the  said  George  lord  Pigot  (the 
said  Georse  lord  Pigot  then  being  a  subiect 
of  our  said  lord  tlie  present  kin^)  to  be  their 
governor  and  commander  in  chief  of  their 
said  fort  and  garrison  of  Fort  St  George  and 
town  of  Madras  Patnam,  and  of  all  the  forces 
which  then  were  or  thereafter  should  be  em- 
ployed for  the  service  of  the  said  United  Com- 
pany, within  the  said  fort,  garrison  and  town ; 
and  he  was,  to  the  utmost  of  his  skill  and 
power,  to  do  and  perform  all  such  offices  and 
services  as  appertained  to  the  post  of  eovemor 
and  commander  in  chief  as  aioresaio,  and  to 
continue  in  Uie  exercise  of  the  same  during 
the  pleasure  of  the  said  United  Company, 
subject  nevertheless  to  all  such  rules,  orders' 
and  instructions,  as  had  theretofore  been  given 
ta  the  president  and  council  of  fort  St  George 


aforesaid,  and  were  then  in  force,  and  also  to 
such  others  as  he  should  at  any  time  there- 
after  receive  in  writing  from  the  Court  of  Di- 
rectors  of  the  said  United  Company,  or  under 
the  hands  of  thirteen  or  more  of  them,  cv 
from  the  governor  and  council  of  Fort  St 
George  aforesaid ;  and  the  said  United  Com- 
pany of  Merchants  of  England  trading  ta 
the  East-Indies,  did  thereby  strictly  require, 
charge,  and  command,  all  commission  omcers^ 
non-conimission  officers,  soldiers,  and  otheiB 
belong^g  to  their  military  forces,  smd  all  the 

nle  and  inhabitants  employed  or  residing 
eir  aforesaid  fort,  garrison,  and  town,  to 
yield  him  the  said  George  lora  Pigot  as  go- 
vernor and  commander  in  chief  as  aforesaid^ 
due  obedience:  which  deed  afterwards^  to 
wit,  on  the  same  day  and  year  aforesaid,  was 
delivered  to  and  accepted  by  the  said  Geor»B 
lord  Pigot,  to  wit,  at  Westminster  sdforesaid, 
in  the  said  county  of  Middlesex.  And  the  said 
Attorney  General  of  our  said  lord  the  king, 
for  our  said  lord  the  king,  further  giveth  the 
Court  here  to  nnderstana  and  be  informed, 
that  afterwards,  to  wit,  on  the  llth  day  ef 
April,  in  the  15  th  year  idToresaid,  at  West- 
minstor  aforesaid,  in  the  said  county  of  Mid- 
dlesex, the  said  United  Company,  by  their  • 
certain  other  deed,  in  writing,  sealed  with 
their  common  seal,  did  make,  constitute  and 
ordain  the  said  George  lord  Pieot,  upon  and 
from,  and  immediately  after  nis  arrival  at 
Fort  St  George  aforesaid,  and  publication  of 
that  commission,  to  be  president  and  governor 
of  and  for  all  their  affiurs  in  the  coasts  of  Co* 
romandel  and  Orixa,  and  of  the  Gingce  and 
Maratta  countries,  and  of  all  the  territories 
thereunto  belonging,  and  of  all  and  singular 
the  forts,  factones,  and  settlements^  territo- 
ries, countries  and  jurisdictions  thereof,  and  lo 
execute  all  and  every  the  powers  and  au- 
thorities thereunto  appertaining,  by  order  and 
direction  of  the  Court  of  Directors  of  the  said 
United  Company  for  the  time  being,  and  to 
continue  in  the  exercise  of  Uie  same  durine 
the  pleasure  of  the  said  United  Company,  and 
of  the  Court  of  Directors  of  the  said  United 
Company,  and  until  the  contrary  thereof 
should  be  signified  under  the  sea}  of  the  said 
United  Company  of  Merchants  of  England 
trading  to  the  East-Indies,  or  under  the  hands 
of  thirteen  or  more  of  the  Court  of  Directors 
of  the  said  Company  for  the  time  being;  and 
to  the  end  that  the  said  George  lord  Pigot 
might  be  better  enabled  to  order  and  manage 
all  the  affairs  of  them  the  said  Company,  they 
did  by  the  said  deed  constitute  and  ordain 
George  Stratton,  esq.  to  be  second  of  their 
council  of  Fort  St.  George,  to  wit,  to  be  next 
in  council  after  their  said  president  George 
lord  Pigot;  brigadier  general  Joseph  Smith  to 
be  third  of  their  said  council,  and  not  to 
rise  to  a  superior  rank  therein ;  Georse  Daw- 
son to  be  tourth,  Henry  Brooke  to  be  fifth, 
John  Whitehill  to  be  sixth,  Claude  Russell  te 
be  seventh,  Charles  Smith  to  be  eighth,  Alex* 
BAder  Dab^mple  to  be  math,  Samuel  Johi^ 


lOoVI  M  GEORGE  ffl. 

son  to  be  tcnlb,  Charles  Floyer  to  be  eleventh, 
John  Maxwell  Stone  to  be  twelfth,  Archdale 
Palmer  to  be  thirteenth,  James  Ray  to  be 
fourteenth,  Edward  Strace^  to  be  fifteenth, 
Edward  Cotsford  to  be  sixteenth,  Richard 
Lathom  to  be  serenteenth,  Francis  Jotirdan 
to  be  eighteenth,  and  George  Mackay  to  be 
nineteenUi  and  last  of  their  said  council  of 
Fort  St.  George,  who  was  not  at  any  time  to 
rise  to  an  higher  rank  therein,  for  governing 
and  managing  aU  the  said  Company's  affiiirs 
upon  the  coasts  of  Coromandel  and  Orixa. 
and  the  Gingfee  and  Maratta  countries,  and 

Soveming  the  said  Fort  St.  George  and  city  of 
ladras  ratnam,  and  all  other  forts,  factories, 
«and  settlements  of  the  said  United  Company, 
within  any  of  the  said  territories;  and  the 
8ud  United  Company  did  thereby  give  and 
f;rant  unto  their  said  president  and  governor, 
Oeorge  lord  Pigot^  ana  to  their  council  afore- 
named, or  the  major  part  of  them  (the  whole 
council,  except  such  who  were  absent  as 
chiefs  of  subordinate  factories  being  duly  sun^- 
moiMd)  full  power  and  authority  ftom  time 
to  time  to  rule  and  govern  all  and  everv  their 
factors  and  servants  under  their  said  presi- 
dency, and  all  the  soldiers  and  inhabitants  of 
their  sudFortof  St.  George  and  dty  of  Madras 
Patnam,  and  elsewhere,  within  the  places 
aforesaid,  to  administer  lawful  oaths  as  occa- 
sion should  require,  and  to  do  and  perform 
4ll  such  other  acts  and  things,  and  to  use  and 
exercise  all  such  other  powers  and  authorities 
as  the  said  president  and  eovemor  and  his 
council,  in  their  several  ana  resoective  places 
where  the  said  United  Company  had  or  should 
have  factors,  or  any  places  of  trade,  were  au- 
thorized to  do;  subject  nevertheless  to  ^e 
superintending  and  controlling  power  of  the 
governor  general  and  council  of  rort  William 
in  Bengal,  in  such  cases  wherein  they  were 
authorizea  to  have  a  superintending  and  con- 
trolling power,  in  and  by  an  act  of  parliament 
passed  in  the  ISth'year  of  his  then  ms^esty^s 
reign,  intitled,  *^  An  Act  for  establishing  cer- 
''  tain  Regulations  for  the  better  Management 
**  of  the  Afiairs  of  the  East-India  Company, 
^  as  well  in  India  as  in  Europe  f  ana  also 
subject  and  according  to  sucn  instructions 
and  directions  as  he  the  ^d  Georse  lord 

*  Pigot  their  president  and  governor  and  coun- 
cil aforesaid,  should  from  time  to  time  re- 
ceive, under  the  hands  of  thirteen  or  more  of 
the  Omrt  of  Directors  of  the  said  United  Com- 
pany for  the  time  beine,  and  they  the  said 
United  Company  did  thereby  order  and  re- 
quire all  their  ractors,  servants,  officers  and 

"  soldiers,  within  the  limits  of  the  said  presi- 
dency, and  ail  the  jpeople  and  inhabitants 
of  the  said  Fort  of  St.  G^rge  and  city  of 

.  Madras  Patnam,  or  any  other  their  forts, 
places  or  colonies  within  the  said  presidency, 
to  conform,  submit,  and  yield  due  obedience 

«  unto  the  said  George  lord  Pigot,  their  presi- 
dent and  eovemor,  and  his  council  accord- 
ingly; ana  they  did  thereby  revoke,  repeal, 

-  annul  and  make  Toid|  every  former  commis- 


mgs  againd  George  SMtai^        [1052 


•ion  or  comrnisMons  oven  and  granted  bj 
them,  whereby  any  o&r  person  or  persons 
was  aind  were  constituted  and  ordainea  piesi* 
dent  and  governor,  aad  any  other  peraom 
therein  named  were  constituted  and  ordaioed 
to  be  of  the  council  at  Fort  St  Geoige  afore- 
said :  which  said  last  mentioned  deed  af^- 
wards,  to  wit,  on  the  day  and  year  last  afoie- 
said«  at  Westminster  uoresaud,  in  the  said 
county  of  Middlesex,  was  delivered  to  and  ac- 
cepted by  the  said  George  brd  Pigot   And 
the  said  Attorney  General  of  our  said  laid 
the  king,  for  our  said  lord  the  king,  further 
giveth  xiit  Court  here  to  understand  and  be 
mfbrmed,  that  afterwards,  lo  wit,  on  the  11th 
day  of  December,  in  the  16th  year  of  the 
reien  of  our  said  present  lord  tlie  kin^  the 
said  Geom  lord  Pigot  did  arrive  at  Fort  St 
George  aroresaid;  and  afterwards,  to  wit,  on 
the  d^  and  year  last  aforesaid,  publication  of 
the  said  lastrmentioned  deed  was  there  made, 
and  the  said  Georp  lord  Pigot  did  then  and 
there  take  upon  himself  the  office  of  rovemor 
and  commander  in  chief  of  the  sakl  fort  and 
garrison  of  Fort  St  Geor^  and  city  or  town 
of  Madras  Patnam  aforesaid,  and  of  all  the 
forces  which  then  were  or  thereafier  should 
be  employed  for  Uie  service  of  the  said  United 
Company  within  the  same;  and  also  the 
office  ofjpresident  and  governor  of  and  for 
all  the  af&irs  of  ^e  said  United  Comptoj  on 
the  coast  of  Coromandel  and  Oiiia,  and  of 
the  Gin^  and  Maratta  countries,  and  of  all 
the  territories  thereto  belonging,  and  of  all 
and  singular  the  forts,  fiurtories  and  settle- 
ments, territories  and  jurisdictions  thereof; 
and  that  the  sud  George  Stratton,  Hen7 
Brooke,  Charles  Floyer,  and  George  Macbj, 
aflerwards,  to  wit,  on  the  same  day  and  jev 
last  aforesaid,  at  Fort  St.  Geom  aforesaid,  to 
wit,  at  Westminster  aforesaio,  in  the  said 
county  of  Middlesex,  did  respectively  a(x»^ 
and  each  of  them  take  upon  himseif  the  omoe 
of  one  of  the  council  of  Fort  St.  Geoi^  afore- 
said, for  governing  and  managing  all  the  said 
Company's  afibirs  upon  the  coasts  of  Coro- 
manael  and  Orixa,  and  the  Gmeee  and  Ma^ 
ratta  countries,  and  governing  tne  said  Fort 
St  Greorge,  and  the  city  or  town  of  Madias 
Patnam,  and  all  other  their  forts,  factories 
and  settlements,  vrithin  any  of  the  said  tenri- 
tories.   And  the  said  Attorney  General  of  our 
said  lord  the  king,  for  our  said  ford  the  kin^ 
further  giveth  tixe  Court  here  to  understaad 
and  be  informed,  that  afW  the  making  the 
said  lastHnentioned  deed,  to  vrit,  on  the  ISth 
day  of  April,  in  the  said  1 5th  year  of  the  w^ 
of  our  said  present  ford  the  king,  at  W^ 
minster  aforesaid,  in  the  said  county  of  Mi^ 
dlesex.  Edward  Wheeler,  John  HarrisoikJohB 
Woodhouse,  Joseph  Sparkes,  Frederick  Pigoi^ 
William  James.  Henry  Savage,  Thomas  Bato 
Rous,  Henry  Fletcher,  Darnel  Wier,  Richard 
Hall,  Samuel  Peach,  William  Geoi^  Free- 
man. Petef  Lascelles,  Charles  Boddam,  Jamtf 
Moftatt,  and  John  Smith,  being  then  ^ 
there  more  than  thirteen  of  the  Court  of  !> 


J 


t053] 


and  others, Jbr  deposing  Lord  Pigat, 


A'.  D.  1779. 


[lost 


rectors  of  the  said  United  Company  of  Mer- 
chants of  England  trading  to  the  said  East- 
IndicSy  did  b^  their  instructions  and  direc- 
tions, in  writing,  under  their  hands,  directed 
to  the  said  Company's  president  and  council 
of  Fort  St.  George  aforesaid,,  after  taking  no- 
tice, that  in  order  to  remedy  so  far  as  might 
be  the  inconveniences  occasioned  by  the  mis- 
conduct of  their  late  ]^resident  and  council, 
they  had  thought  proper  to  constitute,  and  by 
their  commission  under  their  seal,  dated  the 
11th  4ay  of  April,  1775,  had  constituted  and 
appointed  them  to  be  their  governor  and' 
council  of  Fort  St.  George,  for  governing  and 
managing  all  the  said  Company's  affairs  on 
the  coast  of  Coromandel  and  Orixa,  and  all 
their  forts,  factories  and  settlements  tliere- 
unto  belonging,  subject  however  to  the  Umi- 
tations  and  restrictions  contained  in  a  lat6  act 
of  parlisunenty  intitled,  '^  An  Act  for  estar- 
**  bushing  certain  Regulations  for  the  better 

•'  <<  Management  of  the  A£&irs  of  the  East- 
**  India  Comoany,  as  well  in  India  as  in  £u- 
'^  rope ;"  ana  also  taking  notice,  that  as  the 
solemn  promise  made  by  their  governor  and 
council,  at  the  re(juest  of  the  nabob  of  the 
Camatic  and  the  king  of  Tanjore,  to  guarantee 
the  treaty  of  1764,  had  been  fldly  approved 
by  the  Court  of  Directors  of  the  said  United 
Company,  they  could  not  but  consider  the 
public  fiuth  of  the  Compimy  as  forfeited,  and 
the  honor  of  the  British  nation  deeply  affected 
by  the  measures  taken  for  dethroning  the 
king  of  Tanjore,  whose  kingdom  had  been 
-wrested  from  him  by  the  servants  qf  the  said 
United  Company,  and  put  under  the  govem- 
jneut  of  Manmud  Ally  Khan,  in  direct  viola- 
tion of  that  treaty,  and  contrary  to  their  re- 
peated orders  and  instructions,  which  had 
uniformly  and  expressly  nrohibited  them  from 
attempting  to  enlarge  tneir  own  or  the  Na- 
bob^s  dominions ;  and  also  in  opposition  to 
the  letter  and  spirit  of  the  Nabob's  public  de- 
claration to  the  king  of  Tanjore's  vackeel, 
wherein  he  affirms,  th^-it  was  not  his  inten- 
tion to  take  the  fort  and  country  of  Tax^'ore 
to  himself,  but  to  secure  them  for  the  l^nefit 
of  the  king  of  Taniore's  family,  and  to  place 
a  proner  person  of  his  kindred  on  the'  throne : 
and  suso  taking  notice,  that^  having  resolved 
to  contribute  so  far  as  in  tiiem  laid  towards 
the  restoration  of  the  king  of  Tanjore,  which 
by  every  tie  of  honour  they  conceived  them- 

.  selves  bound  to  do,  they  thereby  directed  the 

S>vemor  and  council  of  Fort  St.  Geo/^e,  that 
ley  should  take  the  most  effectual  measures 
without  loss  of  time,  for  securing  the  person 
of  the  kin£  of  Tanjore,  and  that  they  forth- 
with jkoum  appoint  him  a  proper  guard  for 
his  pAection,  and  also  for  tne  protection  of 
his  family,  and  inform  him  that  Uiey,  mean- 
ing the  said  United  Company,  had  determined 
to  place  him  upon  the  throne  of  his  ancestors 
upon  certain  terms  and  conditions  to  be  agreed, 
upon  for  the  mutual  benefijt  of  himself  and 
the  said  United  Company,  without  infriusing 

the  rights  of  Mahmud  Ally  Khan,,  nabob  of 

+ 


the  Camatic.  And  the  said  Attorney  General 
of  our  said  lord  the  king,  further  giveth  th« 
Court  here  to  understand  and  be  informed, 
that  the  said  instructions  and  directions  under 
the  hands  of  the  Direcl^p  abovenamed,  after- 
wards, to  wit,  on  the  same  day  and  ye^r  last 
aforesaid,  at  Westminster  aforesaid,  in  tho 
said  county  of  Middlesex,  were  delivered  to 
the  said  George  lord  Pigol^  and  aflerwsuxls,  to 
wit,  on  the  Hth  day  of  December,  in  the  year 
last  aforesaid,  the  said  George  SCratton,  Henry ' 
Brooke,  Charles  Floyer,  ana  George  Mackay^ 
severally  had  notice  of  the  said  instructions, 
orders,  and  directions,  to  wit,  at  Westminster 
aforesaid.  And  the  said  Attorney  General 
of  our  said  lord,  the  king,  for  our  said  lord  the 
king,  further  giveth  the  Court  here  to  under- 
stand and  be  informed,  that  the  said  George 
lord  Pigot,  by  virtue  of  the  power  so  giveu 
hun  as  aforesaid  by  the  said  United  Company, 
and  in  obedience  to  the  said  instructions  ana 
directions,  soon  afW  his  arrival  at  Fort  St 
George  aforesaid^  to  wit,  on  the  same -day  and 
year  last  menUoned,  did  begin  to  put  in  exe- 
cution the  said  instructions  and  directions  for 
restoring  the  said  lune  of  Tanjore  to  the 
throne  of  Tanjore,  and  uie  said  council  of  Fort 
St.  George  did,  pursuant  to  the  said  directions 
and  instructions,  restore  the  said  king  of  Tan« 
jore  to  the  throne  of  Tanjore,  and  was. about 
to  proceed  as  far  as  in  him  the  said  George 
lord  Pigot  lay  to  secure  the  said  king  of  Tan* 
jore  in  the  possession  and  enjoyment  of  the ' 
territories  and  revenues  of  the  said  kingdom 
of  Tanjore.  And  the  said  Attorney  General 
of  our  sa^d  lord  the  king,  for  our  said  lord  the 
king,  further  giveth  the  Court  heve  to  under- 
stand and  be  m^rmftd,'.that  the  said  Geor^ 
Stratton,  late  of  Westminster,  in  the  said 
county  of  Middlesex,  esq.  Heni^  Brooke,  late 
of  the  same  place,  esq.  Charles  Floyer,  late 
of  the  ^same  place,  esq.  and  George  M&ckay, 
late  of*  the  same  place,  esq.  being  subjects, 
and  each  of  them  being  a  subject  of  our  said 
lord  the  present  kine,  and  being  of  "the  coun- 
cil  of  the  sdd  United  Company,  of  their  prin^ 
cipal  settlement  of  Fort  St.  George  and  Ma- 
dras Patnam  aforesaid,  and  being  of  wicked 
and  seditious  dispositions,  together  with  di- 
vers other  wicked  and  evil  disposed  persons^ 
whose  names  are  at  present  unknown  to  the 
said  Attorney  General,  wickedly,  maliciously, 
and  seditiously  intenduig,  devising,  and  con- 
triving to  depnve  the  said  George  lord  PigM 
of  the  government  and  command  of  the  said 
fort  and  garrison  of  Fort  St.  George  and  city 
or  town  of  Madras  Patnam,  and  of  all  the  . 
forces  then  employed  for  the  service  of  the 
^d  United  Company  within  the  same,  and 
to  deprive  the  said  George  lord  Pigot  of  his 
said  office  of  president  and  governor  of  and 
for  all  the  aflsurs  of  the  said  if nited  Company 
on  the  coasts  of  Coromandel  and  Orixa,  and 
of  the  Gingee  and  Maratta  countries,  and  of 
all  the  territories  thereto  belonging,  and  of 
all  and  singular  the  forts,  factories,  and  set« 
Uoments,  teiritories^  countries,  and  jurndic- 


1055] 


19  GEORGrE  IIL         Proceedings  ogainH  George  Siralton       [1056 


tioDS  ihereofy  and  unlawfully  to  obstruct, 
hinder  and  prevent  the  said  George  lord  Pigot 
fVom  discharging  his  duty,  and  uie  trust  re- 
posed in  him  in  carrying  the  said  instruction^ 
and  directions  of  t^  Directors  of  the  said 
United  Company  into  execution  and  effect, 
ftnd  to  assume  to  themselves  the  govern- 
ment and  command  of  the  ssdd  fort  and  gar- 
rison of  Fort  St.  George  and  city  or  town  of 
Madras  Patnam,  and  of  all  the  forces  \^ch 
vrcre  employed  for  the  service  of  the  said 
United  Company,  within  the  said  fort,  gar- 
rison, and  city  or  town,  and  of  the  govem- 
ment  of  all  the  affairs  oi'the  said  United  Com- 
pany on  the  coasts  of  Coromandel  and  Orixa^ 
and  of  the  Gingee  and  Maratta  countries,  and 
of  all  the  forts,  factories  and  settlements,  ter- 
ritories, countries  and  jurisdictions  thereof, 
on  the  £4th  day  of  Au^st,  in  the  16th  year 
of  tlie  reign  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  and 
within  the  jurisdiction  of  the  president  and 
council  of  the  said  United  Company,  of  their 
«aid  principal  settlement  of  Fort  St.  George 
and  Madras  Patnam,  to  wit,  at  Westminster 
aforesaid,  in  the  said  county  of  Middlesex, 
together  with  divers  other  persons  whose 
names  are  at  present  unknown  to  the  said 
Attorney  General,  unlawfully,  wickedly  and 
seditiously,  did  form  themselves  into  a  coun- 
cil, and  did  then  and  there  confer  the  com- 
mand of  the  army  of  the  said  United  Com- 
pany within  the  said  presidency  of  Fort  St. 
George,  and  also  of  the  eairison  of  Fort  St. 
Geoi^e  aforesaid,  upon  James  Stuart,  and 
then  and  there  order  the  said  James  Stuart  to 

'  put  the  said  fort  and  garrison,  and  the  fort 
nouse  there,  under  the  command  of  them  the 
said  George  Stratton,  Henry  Brooke,  Charles 
Floyer,  and  George  Mackay,  and  the  ssdd 
other  persons,  whx>se  names  are  at  present 
unknown  to  the  said  Attorney  General,  and 
did  then  and  there  further  order  the  said 
James  Stuart,  if  he  should  see  it  necessary,  or 

.  that  resistance  shoidd  be  made  to  their  said 
orders^  to  arrest  the  nerson  of  the  said  George 
lord  Pigot,  then  ana  there  being  a  subject  of 
our  said  lord  the  present  king,  and  so  bein^ 

Sovemor  and  commander  in  chief,  and  presi- 
ent  and  governor  as  aforesaid ;  and  that  they 
the  said  George  Stratton,  Henry  Brooke, 
Charles  Fioyer,  and  Georse  Mackay,  and  the 
said  James  Stuart,   tog»her  with  the  said 

S arsons  so  unknown  to  the  said  Attorney 
eneral  as  aforesaid,  af^rwards,  to  wit,  on 
the  same  day  and  year  aforesaid,  within  the 
jurisdiction  dforesaid,  to  wit,  at  Westminster 
aforesaid,  in  the  county  aforesaid,  with  force 
and  arms,  to  wit,  with  swords,  gnns,  pistols, 
and  other  ofiensive  weapons,  and  with  a  mi- 
litary force,  did  make  an  assault  upon  the 
said  George  lord  Pigot  so  being  such  subject . 
as  aforesaid,  and  in  the  peace  of  God,  and  of 
our  said  lord  the  king,  and  then  and  there 
beinjg  governor  and  commander  in  chief,  and 
president  and  governor  as  aforesaid,  and  did 
then  and  there  arrest  and  imprison  the  said 
Oeorge  lord  Pigot,  and  then  and  there  un- 


lawfully and  by  force,  did  deprive  the  mi 
George  lord  Pigot  of  the  power  and  capaciiy 
to  exercise  his  offices  of  eovenMr  and  com- 
mander in  chief  and  piea£nt  and  goverooi 
aforesaid ;  and  that  they  the  said  George  StnA> 
ton,   Heniy  Brooke,  Charles  Fbyer,  umI 
George  Mackay,  together  with  the  ssidotbei 
persons  whose  names  are  unknovm  lo  the 
sud  Attoraey  General,  did  there,  withami- 
litary  force,  *keep  and  continue,  and  cause  to 
be  kept  and  contmued  the  said  George  \oti 
Pigot,  so  imprisoned  and  deprived  of  the 
power  and  capadty  to  exercise  his  said  offices 
from  thence  lor  a' long  time,  to  wit,  for  the 
space  of  nine  months,  and  did  there,  duriog 
tnat  time,  uidawfuliy  assume  and  exerdae 
the  eovemment^  direction,  and  management 
of  the  army  of^the  said  United  Company 
within  the  said  preudency,  and  of  the  foriaoi 
garrison  of  Fort  St:  Geor^,  and  city  or  town 
of  Madras  Patnam,  and  of  ail  the  a&irs  of  the 
said  United  Company  on  the  coasts  of  Coro- 
mandei  and  Orixa,  and  of  the  Gingee  and 
Maiatta  countries,  and  of  all  thetemtono 
thereunto  belongi^  an4  of  all  and  singular 
the  forts  and  set^ments,  territuries,  oouo- 
tries  and  jurisdiction^'Uhereof,  aad  other 
wrongs  to  the  said  George  k>rd  Pi»>t,tbai 
and  there  did,  to  the  greftt  dsunage  of  the  saitl 
George  lord  Pigot.  and  agunst  the  ibrm  oi 
the  statute  in  such  case  inade.and  provided, 
and  against  the  peace  ^f  our  said  lord  the 
king,  liis  crown  and  diinity.    And  the  said 
Attorney  General  of  ouraud  lord  the  kin^for 
our  said  lord  the  king,  g^veth  the  Court  neie 
further  to  understand  and  be  informed,  that 
the  said  Geoiv;e  lord  Pigot,  on  the  Sith  day  of 
August,  m  the  said  16tk  year  of  the  reign  « 
our  saia  present  sovereign  lord  the  kin&  and 
before  and  afterwards  was  governor  ana  coo- 
mander  in  chief  of  the  iort  and  garrison  of 
Fort  St.  Geor^  and  the  city  or  town  of  31*- 
dras  Patnam  m  India,  the  same  during  thi^ 
time  beineone  of  the  principal  settlementeoj 
the  said  United  Company  in  India,  and  of  u 
the  forces  then  employed  for  the  ^^^^ 
the  said  United  Company  within  the  said  JDirt, 
garrison,  and  city  or  town,  and  alsopresid^ 
and  ffovemor  of  and  for  all  the  affairs  of  the 
said  United  Company  on  the  coasts  of  Coro- 
mandel and  Orixa,  and  of  the  Gingee  and 
Marattacountries,  and  ail  the  territories  there- 
unto belongmg,  and  of  all  and  sing^tlar  the 
forts,  factories  and  settlements,  ^^^^^ 
countries,  and  iurisdictions  thereof;  andw 
on  the  same  oay  and  year  last  mentioned, 
and  before  and  afterwards,  the  said  Oeoi|e 
Stratton,  Henry  Brooke,  Charles  f^J^^^ 
George  Mackay  were  of  the  counciLnd  eadi 
of  them  was  one  of  the  council  otm^  ^ 
United  Company,  of  their  said  lastrmentiooed 
principal  settlement,  for  governing  and  im- 
naging  all  the  said  Compiinys  a&iirs  upcn 
the  coasts  of  Coromandel  and  Orixa,  and  the 
Gingee  and  Maratta  rountriea^  and  goveriMBg 
the  said  last-mentioned  principal  settiemeat 
of  the  said  United  Company^  and  all  otbei  tW 


10S7] 


mui  niUm^fir  depoung  Lard  PIgci. 


A«  D.  1779. 


tl058 


Ibfta^  faemkfl^  apd  settkme&ts  of  tiie  said 

UfiitM  €!Mn|wiiy^  wiihin  any  of  the  said  tei^ 

viloraea  (that  ia  to  say)  at  Westmuist^  afore- 

aaidy  in  the  said  county  of  Middlesex.    And 

the  said  Atfebmey  General  of  our  said  lord 

the  kifigt  for  omr  snA  lord  the  king,  giveth  the 

Coort  Den  further  to  understaoo  and  be  in- 

Ibfined,  that  the  said  George  Strallon,  Henry 

Breokey  Charles  Floyer,  ain  George  Mackay, 

being  of  the  couneil,  and  each  of  them  being 

one  of  the  ciouncil  of  the  said  United  Com- 

]Maiy  as  hat  aforesaid^  and  unlawfully  and 

nsolicioiisW-  contriving  saad  intending  to  ag^ 

gprieve  and  injure  the  said  George  lord  PigoL 

0o  being  governor  and  commander  in  chief^ 

«Dd  ptfesiaent  and  xoverhor  as  last  aforesaid, 

aad  to  obstvuct,  hinaer,  and-  prevtmt  the  said 

CSeoige  lord  Pigot  in  the  exercise  of  his  said 

«Ates,  and  to  assume  to  theqaselves  the  go- 

veMnnenit  and  oHnmand  of  the  said  fort  and 

ganison  of  Fort  dt.  George  and  city  or  town 

<lf  Madnur  Patnam,  and  of  all  Ihe  forces  which 

treie  emfloyed  for  the  service  of  the  said 

Unilsd^CoiDfiany  within  the  said  fort,  gani- 

aon,  and  town,  and  of  the  government  of  aH 

the.  aifitirs  of  the  said  United  Company  on  the 

isoasta  of  Coromandel  and  Orixa^  and  of  the 

Oingee  and  Maratta  countries^  and  of  all  the 

mts,  factories  and  settlements^  territories, 

OAititries,  and  juiisdietions  thereof^  on  the 

aaid  Mih  day  of  August,  in  the  16th  year 

albre«ttd»  within  the  jurisdiction  of  the  pne- 

«delKt  andi  council  of  the  said  United-Corn- 

aany,  of  their  said  principal  settlement  of  Fort 

St.  Geot|^  and  city  or  tbwn  of  Madras  Pat- 

aam,  ta  wity  at  Westminster  aibresaid,.in  the 

county  albressad,  together  with  divers  other 

persons^  whose  names  ase  at  present  unknown 

to  the  said'  Attorney   Genera^  unkwfully, 

.wickedly  and  seditiously,  did  form  themselves 

Into  a  council,  and  then  and  there  conferred 

the  command  of  the  army,  of  the  said'  United 

Company,  within  the  said  presidency  of  Fort 

St  George,  and  also  of  tlie  garrison  of  Fort  St. 

€reorge  afbresaid,  upon  James  Stuart^  slad  did 

then  and  there  order  the  said  James  Stuart  to 

nut  the  said  fort  and  garrison,  and  the  fort 

nouse  tiiere,  tinder  the  command  of  them  Uie 

said  George  Stratton,  Henry  Brooke,  Charles 

Floyer,  and  George  Mackay,  and  the  said 

other  persons^  whose  names  are  at  present 

unknown  to  the  said  Attorney  General,  and 

did  then  and  there  further  order  the  said 

James  Stuivt,  if  he  should  see  it  necessary,  or 

tiiat  resistance  should  be  made  to  their  said 

Dffders,  to  arrest  the  person  of  the  said  George 

lord  ^eot^  then  and  there  being  a  subject  of 

our  said  lord  the  present  king,  and  s(^  being 

president,  flovemor,  and  commander  in  chief 

«s  aforesaid;  and  tiiot  they  the  said  George 

Stratton,  Henry  Brooke,  Charles  Floyer,  and 

Oe6i^  Mackay^  and  the  said  James  Stuar^ 


minster  aforesaid,  in  the  bounty  aforesaid, 
with  force  and  arms,  to  wit,  ^dth  swords^ 
guns,  pistols,  and  oth^r  offensive  weapons^ 
and  with  a  military  force,  did  make  an  a^ 
sault  upon  the  said  George  lord  Pigot,  so  be- 
ing such  subiect  as  afimresaid,  and  in  tha 
peace  of  God  and  of  our  said  lord  the  kingi 
and  then  and  there  being  governor  and  com- 
mander in  chief,  and  president  and  governor 
as  last  aforesidd,  and  did  then  and  there  ar- 
rest and  imprison  the  said  George  lord  Pigot, 
and  then  and  there,  unlawfully  and  by  force, 
did  deprive  the  said  George  lord  Pigot  of  the 
power  and  capacity  to  exercise  his  offices  of 

Sovemor  and  commander  in  chief  and  presi* 
ent  aforesaid;,  andthatthey  the  said  George 
Stratton,  Henry  Brooke,  Charles  Flojrer,  and 
George  Mackay,  together  with  the  said  other 
persons  whose  names  are  unknown  to  th# 
said  Attomev  General,  did  there,  with  a  mi^* 
litary  force,  keep  and  continue^  and  cause  to 
be  kept  and  contwued,  the  saia  George  lor^, 
Pigot,  so  imprisoned  •  and  defirived  of  the 
pQwer  and  capacity  to  eaercise  his  said  officea- 
from  thence  for  a  long  space  of  time,  te 
wit,  for  the  space  of  mne  months,  and  die 
there,  during  tluit  time,  unlawfully  assume 
and  exercise  the  government,  direction,  and 
management    of   the    army   of  the    said 
United  Company  within  the  said  presidency^ 
and  of  the  fort  and  earrison  of  Fort  St.  George^ 
and  city  or  town  of  liladras  Patnam,  and  of 
all  the  affairs  of  the  said  United  Company  on , 
the  coasts  of  Coromandel  and  Orixa,  and  of 
the  Gingee  and  Maratta  countries,  and  of  all 
the  territories  thereunto  belonging,  and  of  all 
and  singular  the  forts,  factories  smd  settle 
ments,  territories,  countries,  and  jurisdictions 
thereof,  and  other  wrongs  to  the  said  George 
lord  Pigot,  then  aiid  there  did,  to  the  great 
damage  of  the  said  George  lord  Pigot,  and 
against  the  form  of  the  statute  in  such  case 
made  and  provided,  and  against  the  peace  of 
our  said  lora  the  king,  his  crown  and  dignity. 
And  the  said  Attorney  General,  of  our  said 
lord  the  king,  for  our  said  lord  the  king^ 
giveth  the  Court  here  further  to  understaml 
and  be  informed,  that  on  the  said  24th  day  of 
August,  in  the  said  16th  ^rear  of  the  reign  of 
our  sovereign  lord  the  King,  and  before  and 
afterwards,  the  said  George  Stratton,  Henry 
Brooke,  Charles  Floyer,  and  George  Mackay, 
were  of  the  council,  and  each  of  'them  was 
one  of  the  council  of  one  of  the  principal  set- 
tlements of  Uie  said  United  CompjEiny  in  India, 
called  Fort  St.  George  and  Madras  Patnam, 
Otherwise  Madr^  Patnam,  otherwise  Fort 
St.  George  and  Madras,  otherwise  Fort  St. 
George,  oUierwise  Madras :  and  that  the  said 
George   Stratton,   Henry    Brooke,   Charles 
Floyer  and  George  Mackay,  beins  such  coun- 
^^.^w  «...^,««»j,  w,m^  w.^.  »m^  « .^. w  .^i^...  •,    cil  2S  aforcsaid,  together  with  divers  other 
togemer  with  tne  said  other  persons,  whose    persons,whose  names  are  at  present  unknown 


names  ave  so  unknown  to  the  said  Attorney 
General  as  afbraud,  afterwards,  to  wit,  on 
the  same  dav  and  year  aforesaid^  within  the 
jurisdiction  last  aroresaid,  to  wit,  at  West* 
VOL,  XXI. 


to  the  said  Attorney  General,  on  the  said*  d4tb 
da^  of  August,  in  the  said  l6th  year  of  the 
said  reign  of  our  sud  lord  the  king,  with  foitO' 
ZMid  arms^  to  wit,  with  swords,  guns,  pistols^ 
S  Y 


1050] 


19  GEORGE  UL         Procaadhgi  aguaa  Gemrgt  StnUom        [I06f 


and  other  oflfimshre  wcafioos,  and  with  a  mi- 
htary  force  within  the  jurisdiction  of  the  pie- 
•ideot  and  council  of  the  said  United  Com- 
pany  of  the  said  last-mentioned  prindfial  set- 
tlement,  to  wit,  at  Weatminster  aforesaid,  in 
the  said  countyofMiddleseZyinandupoarthe 
aaid  Gaorae  Um  Pwt,  then  being  a  sulject 
•four  said  lord  the  kuue,  and  in  the  peace  of 
God  and  our  said  lord  the  king,  and  then  and 
there  being  president  and  goremor  of  the 
aaid  last-mentioned  principal  aettkment  of 
the  said  United  Company,  did  make  an  aa- 
iauh,  and  htm  the  said  Genge  lord  Pigot  did 
then  and  there  beat,  wound  and  iU-tmt,  and 
did  then  and  there  imprison,  and  cause  and 
procure  to  be  imprisonecL  the  said  Gecage  lord 
riflot,  and  there  unlawlully  and  agamst  the 
will  of  the  said  George  lord  Piflot,  did  keep 
and  detain,  and  procure  to  be  kept  and  de- 
tained htm  the  said  George  lord  Pigot  in  pri- 
son, for  a  lone  time,  to  int.  for  nine  months 

•  then  next  followioCp  and  otner  wronss  to  the 
said  George  lord  PigM  then  and  there  did, 
to  the  great  damage  of  the  said  George  kMrd 
Pigot,  and  against  the  form  of  the  statute  in 
such  case  made  and  provided,  and  against  the 
peace  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  his  crown  and 
dignity:  And  the  said  Attorney  General  of 
our  said  lord  the  king,  for  our  said  lord  the 
^■^^  giveth  the  Court  here  further  to  under- 
ataml  and'be  informed,  that  on  the  said  24th 
daj  of  August,  in  the  said  16th  year  of  the 
reign  of  our  sovereign  lord  the  king,  and  be- 
Ibre  and  afterwards,  the  said  George  Stratton, 
Henry  Brooke,  Charles  Floyer,  and  George 
Mackav,  claimed  ta  be  of  the  council,  and 
oich  of  them  claimed  to  be  one  of  the  coun- 
eii  of  another  principal  settlement  of  the  said 
United  Company  in  India,  called  Fort  St. 
George  and  Madras  Patnam,  otherwise  Ma- 
dras JPatnam,  otherwise  Fort  St.  George  and 
Madias,  otherwise  Fort  St.  George,  othennse 
Madras,  that  is  to  say,  at  Westminster  afore- 
said, in  the  said  county  of  Middlesex ;  and 
that  the  said  Georee  Stratton,  Henry  Brooke, 
Charles  Floyer,  ana  George  Mackay,  so  claim- 
hig  to  be  such  council  as  aforesud,  together 
with  divers  other  persons,  whose  names  are 
at  present  unknowp  to  the  said  Attorney  Ge- 
neral, on  the  said  94th  day  of  August,  in  the 
said  lath  year  of  the  reign  of  our  said  lord  the 
king,  with  force  and  arms,  to  wit,  with 
swords,  guns,  pistols,  and  other  offensive 
wea[)ons,  and  with  a  military  force  within 
the  jurisdiction  of  the  president  and  council 
of  Fort  St^  George  aforesaid,  to  wit,  at  West- 
minster, in  the  said  county  of  Middlesex,  in 
and  upon  the  said  Georae  lord  Pigot,  then 

'  being  a  subject  of  our  said  lord  the  Cng,  and 
an  the  peace  of  God  and  our  said  lord  the 
king,  and  then  and  there  being  governor  of 
the  said  last-mentioned  princij^  settlement 
of  the  said  United  Company,  did  make  an  as^ 
4auH,  and  him  the  said  George  lord  Pigot  did 
then  and  there  beat^  wound  and  ill-treat,  and 
did  then  and  there  imprison,  and  cause  and 
yroeura  to  be  imprisoned^  tbaaaid  George 


lofd  P^ot,  and  there  vnfanrii^  and      _ 
the  will  of  the  said  George  bed  Pigot,  did 
keep  and  detain,  and  canae  and  nracnre  to  bi 
kept  and  detained,  turn  the  aaid  Georp  lord 
Pigot  in  priaon,  for  a  kmrtime^  towil,  iv 
ninemootfaa  then  next  foSowin^  and  other 
wrones  to  the  aaid  Gearse  lora  Pieot  tboi 
and  tncre  dkl,  to  the  great  damage  of  the  wd 
George  hud  Pigot,  and  against  thefomof 
the  statute  in  such  caae  made  and  provided, 
and  against  the  peace  of  ov  aaid  lord  tiis 
king,  his  ciown  sod  dignity.    And  the  aid 
Attorney  General  of  our  said  kadthekiDg 
for  our  aaid  kid  thekiii&  grveththeCoort 
here  fiirthertouiiderataiid  mdfceinlbroie^ 
that  on  the  aaid  i4th  dqref  August,  in  tbs 
Ifith  year  of  the  reign  of  our  sovereifli  M 
the  kmg^  and  before  and  afterwards,  toe  sMd 
George  StiattoDy  Heniy    Brooke,  Cliades 
Flover,  and  George  Mackay,  daiined  power 
and  authority  in  India,  under  the  aaidUmted 
Company;  and  that  the  aaid  George  Strattoo, 
Henry  Brooke,  Chaiks  Flover,  iod  Gtom 
Macaay.  dainung  power  and  authority  unoet 
the  said  United  Conmany,  together  wtthili- 
vers  other  persons,  wboae  names  are  at  pis* 
sent  oidmown  to  the  said  Attorney  G«Mn], 
on  the  same  day  and  year  last  mentioned^ 
with  force  and  arms,  to  wit,  with  sworda^ 
guns»  pistols,  and  other  ofeisive  weapoos^ 
and  with  a  militarv  force  within  the  junm* 
tion  then  claimed  by  the  aaid  George  aHattOB, 
Henry  Brooke,  Chailea  Fkgrer,  and  Geoiip 
Mackay,  under  the  aaid  Umted  Coimianj  a 
India,  to  wit,  at  Westminster  afoiesaio,  in  the 
said  counQr  of  Middlesex,  in  and-  upon  the 
said  George  lord  Pieot,  then  and  there  jbeing 
a  subject  of  our  said  knid  the  king,  and  in  the 
peace  of  God  and  our  said  lord  the  kinj^  did 
make  an  assault,  and  him  the  said  Geoigl 
lord'Pigpt  did  then  and  there  beat,  wouw^ 
and  ill-treat,  and  did  then  and  theitimprisoD, 
and  cause  and  procure  to  be  imprisoned,  the 
said  George  lord  Pi^t,  and  then  and  tbeif 
uniawfiilly,  and  against  the  will  of  the  said 
George  lord  Pigo^  did  keep  and  detaio,  sad 
cause  and  orocure  to  be  kept  and  detsined, 
him  the  said  George  lord  Pigot  in  prison,  for 
a  long  time,  to  wit,  for  nine  months^  then 
next  toUowiiig,  and  other  wrongs  to  the  aud 
George  lord  Pigot  then  and  there  did,  to  tbi 
great  damage  of  the  said  George  lord  Pigo^ 
and  against  the  form  of  the  statute  in  sudi 
case  made  and  provided,  and  a^uiut  tbi 
peace  of  our  said  lord  the  king,  bis  crowa 
and  dienity.    Whereupon  the  said  AiUan^ 
Genenu  of  our  $aid  lord  the  kiog,  who  m 
our  said  lord  the  kina  in  this  behalf  pn>- 
secuteth,  for  our  said  lord  the  king  pn^yeu 
the    consideration    of  the  Court  here  0i 
the   prendses ;    and   that  due  .  process  m 
law  may  be  awarded  against  them  the  said 
George   Stratton,   Henrv   Brooke,  Cbarltf 
Floyer,  and  George  Mackay,  in  this  bebu^ 
to  make  them  answer-  to  our  said  lord  tM 
king,  touching  and  concerning  tha  prenuiV 
aforesaid. 


lodi] 


anJ  ai^erifjbr  tUpo$ing  Zord.  Pigot*  A«  D.  1779. 


{106i 


In  tUc  Hjnr^  ^fiic». 

December  SOM  and  ilst,  1779. 

PROCEEDINGS 

cpon   thb  tkial  of 

Tab  king, 

against 
OsoROB  Stratton,    Hsnrt   Brooke, 

Charles    Floyer,    and    George 

Macray,  Esquires, 

before 

Tbe  Right  Hon.  William  '  Earl  of 
Maksfield,  L.  C.  J.  and  a  Special 
Jury  of  the  county  of  Middlesex,  at 
Westminster-hall : 

Upon  an  Infonnation  filed  by  ALSXAirnER 
Webiierbvrme,  Esq.  his  Majesty's  Attor- 
ney General,  against  the  several  Defen- 
dants, for  depriving  the.  right  hon.  George 
Lord  PiGorr  of  his  command  and  office  of 
Governor  and  President  of  the  Council  at 
Madras,  and  arresting  and  imprisonine  his 
person  for  the  SMte  of  nine  months,  &c. ; 
to  which  Defenaants  pleaded,  Not  Guilty; 
thereu{K>n  his  Majes^s  Attorney  General 
Joined  issue. 

Counsel  for  the  Crown, — Mr.  Attorney  Ge- 
iiend,  (Alexander  Wedderbumc)  (a)  ;  Mr. 
Solicitor  General,  (James  Wallace);  Mr., 
Mansfield  (h)  ;  Mr.  Serieant  Walker ;  Mr. 
Xiee;  Mr.  Davenport;  Mr.  Rous;  Mr.  lind ; 
Mr.  Woodhouse. 

Solicitor, — Mr.  John  Smith. 

-  Camuel  for  tke  Defen^nti^^Mr.   Dun- 
ning;   Mr.  lieuyon(c);    Mr.  AT6en(d); 
Mr.  Wilson  f«;;    Mr.  Chambre(/;7    Mr. 
I^SSOtt;  the  hon.  Thomas  l^^ine  (g). 
£2icitorf.^Me8sr8.  Gregg  and  Potts. 

The  information  was  stated  by  Mr.  Lind, 
and  the  cause  then  opened  at  large,  by 

Mr.  Atiom^  General,  May  it  please  your 
lordship,  and  you  gentlemen  of  the  jury; 
you  have  heard  the  infonnation  on  which  the 
defendants  are  to  be  tried  read  to  you;  I 
shall  avoid  re^stating  it,  as  I  shall  have  occa- 
sion for  employing  your  time  and  attention 
in  the  rest  of  what  I  have  to  trouble  you  with, 
-^riucb  cannot  be  short;  therefore  it  is  only 
becessaiy  for  me  to  observe  to  vou,  that  the 
defeadaats  are  here  charged  with  no  common 

{a)  Is  1780,  C.  J.  C.  B.  and  buvn  Longliboroiigfa ; 
in  1793,  Lovd  CbaoMllor ;  ialgOl,  mil  of  RomIto. 

(b)  In  ia04,  C.  J.  C.  B. 

(c)  In  1784,  Mkstmr  of  tlw  Rolls;  in  1788, 
C«  J.  B.  R.  and  lord  Kenyon. 

(d>  In  1788,  MAtler  of  the  Rolli;  ia  1801, 
C.  i,  C.  B.  and  lord  AWauley. 
<0  I*  1786,  ono  of  the  Jnitieea  C.  B. 

^  In  1800,  one  of  the  JoitioM  O.  B. 

\0  lBli06>  Lord  ChMweUor  and  bafoaBr^OM. 


misdemeanor,  the  assault  aftd  imprisonment 
of  their  governor,  which  </f  kselt  is  a  very 
,  heinous  ofFence,  as  it  is  stated  to  have  been 
the  means  used  by  them  to  overturn  the  go- 
vernment and  put  themselves  in  possession 
of  dl  the  authority  there,  and  not  only  pos- 
session of  an  authority  wmch  gave  them  the 
dominion  over  a  very  extensive  country  and 
the  nile  over  millions  of  people,  4>ut  of  what  I 
am  afit^id  was  of  still  more  consequence,  the 
possession  of  the  revenues. 

Gentlemen ;  this,  in  general,  is  the  nature 
of  the  ofFence  with  which  they  are  charged. 
Before  1  proceed  to  state  the  case  to  you,  it 
behoves  me  to  give  you  an  account  of  the 
history  of  the  present  prosecution. 

In  the  year  1777,  an  account  arrived  in 
this  count^,  early  in  the  year,  that  in  the  co- 
vemment  of  Madras  in  India,  which  to  that 
time  had  been  considered  as  the  most  regitlar- 
and  orderly  of  all  the  settlements  this  coun- 
try possesses  there,  the  governor  lord  Pigot, 
(who,  not  a  great  while  before,  had  been  sent 
out  of  this  country  as  a  man  from  his  per- 
sonal sfUiation  possessed  of  the  most  know- 
ledge of  the  country,  and  the  fittest  person  to 
hold  such  authority,)  had  been  not  only  de- 
prived of  the  government,  but  imprisoned  by 
the  members  of  his  council.     This  account 
first  arrived  here,  in  a  Narrative  published  by 
the  defendants  themselves,  to  put  the  best 
gloss  they  could  upon  their  act,  and  though 
they  had  tbe  advanti^e  of  tellmg  their  own 
story  first,  yet  it  was  deceived  in  tnis  country 
with  universal  indignation  and  alarm.    Tha 
general  court  of  East  India  proprietors  as- 
sembled at  one  of  their  quarterly  meetings, 
and  immediately  voted  that  lord  Figot  should .. 
be  immediately  restored  to  the  government ; 
and  gave  directions  to  proper  persons  to  carnr ' 
into  execution  this  resolution.    In  the  month 
of  April  there  was  a  change  in  the  direction,* 
and  various  measures  were  taken  for  that 

Surpose ;  at  last,  in  May  1777,  it  was  finally 
etermined  to  restore  lord  Pigot,  and  to  re- 
call those  who  had  been  concerned  upon  all 
sides  in  the  business  that  had  happened  at 
Madras.  In  the  course  ot  that  summer  per- 
sons were  sent  from  this  country  to  take  the  • 
command  of  the  forces,  to  take  upon  them 
the  government,  and  with  positive  directions 
to  send  home  the  actors  in  these  disturbances : 
thev  arrived  in  the  beginning  of  1778,  they 
took  possession  of  the  settlement,  took  upon 
them  the  command  of  the  forces  fiom  the 
commanding  officers  who  had  been  concerned 
in  the  disturoances  now  imputed  to  the  de- 
fendsAts  and  others,  and  intimated  the  ordert 
of  thecompanvfor  them  to  return  to  £ng-« 
land  :  Long'  before  that  lord  Pigot  was  no 
more !  Directions  were. given  to  prosecute  in 
India  those  who  by  their  fttuation  as  military 
officers  had  been  instrumental  in  the  over- 
throw of  the  flovemment  and  imprisonment  . 
of  lord  Pigot.  In  the  mean  time  Mr.  ^tratton,- 
Mr.  Floyer,  Mr.  Mackay,  and  Mr.  Brooka 
had,  ia  pursuance  of  a  diieciion  sent  wiUjiiitt 


I06S] 


19  OEORGE  IIL     .  Pt9auiing$  mmmt  Oeo^gf  SimUm        [1011 


that purpcMe,  retened to Eng^uid.  TbisyM 
it  was  very  natural  to  imaidne,  beome  a 
matter  of  eoauiiy;  it  would  indeed  have 
been  a  very  culpable  nedect  had  an  eoqimy 
not  have  been  mstituted  respecting  the  con- 
sequences which  b^d  amended  ue  acts  of 
these  gentleroen,  they  livine  in  ibis  country^ 
and  amenable  now  only  to  tne  judicature  of 
^lis  country.  For  that  purpose  the  House  of 
Commons  directed,  in  the  last  session  of  par- 
liament, the  directors  of  the  East  India  com- 
pany to  lay  before  them  an  account  of  tiie 
proceedings  which  had  been  had  upon  the  very 
extraordinary  events  that  I  have  just  de^ 
scribed  to  you  to  have  happened  at  Madras 
in  1776.  It  appeared  there,  that  directions 
had  been  repeatedly  giveq  forthe  trial  of  ailihe 
subordinate  instruments  that  had  acted  under 
the  authority  of  the  present  defendants.  It 
did^not  appear,  as  matters  then  stood,  that 
any  directions  had  yet  been  given  for  the 
prosecution  of  those  gentlemen  who  had  been 
the  principal  actors,  and  who  had  derived  to 
themselves  the  principal  advantage  from 
those  acts.  It  was  therefore  without  aAy  dis- 
sention  but  with  very  general  approbation 
4letennined  to  address  bis  ina^sty  to  direct  a 
prosecution  to  be  carried  on,  and  that  prose- 
cution according  to  the  laws  of  this  oountnr 
is  enabled  to  be  carried  on  bf  an  act  which 
the  repeated  disorders  in  Intta  had  rendered 
exceedingly  necessary.  In  consequence  of 
this,  orders  were  given  to  me  to  bring  this 
cause  before  the  court  and  jury,  and  in  obe- 
dience to  those  orders  I  Have  now  laid  the 
prosecution  before  voo.  Gentlemen,  with  what 
propriety  those  orders  of  which  I  have  now 

fiven  you  an  account  were  issued,  you  will  be 
etter  able  to  judge  when  you  have  heard  the 
case  I  have  to  state  to  you.  In  stating  that, 
there  are  two  things  extremely  necessary; 
^  one  b,that  you  should  be  made  to  uoder-^ 
stand  all  the  circumstances,  relations  and 
)iearings  <^  an  affair  existing  in  a  couotiy, 
the  manners  of  which  are  totally  diilnenf 
<iom  ours,  and  with  the  history  oi  which  yoM 
can  have  but  a  general  acquaintance;  for 
fbat  I  am  sure  nothing  more  is  requisite,  than 
that  you  should  bestow  such  attention  as  I 
dare  say  you  have  all  resolved  to  bring  with 
you  to  the  trial  of  this  cause.  That  <mca' 
done,  I  shall  have  i|o  doubt  that,  ^m^^fy^^a  as 
my  abilities  are  to  tbe  task,  your  sentimeots> 
and  the  justness  of  your  own  foelings,  will 
Q»ake  yoi|  understand  how  to  know  and  foel 
the  great  in^portance  of  the  cause  you  are  to 
try,  and  the  very  mat  and  uncopnmoa  coo- 
aequence  of  the  otnce  you  now  take  upon  you 
M  jurymen  in  this  case;  as  you  are  oot  to 
decide  upon  partioular  rights,  aur  any  rights 
that  affect  the  interest  of  the  govemmeot  of 
tlMs  country,  and  inhabitants  m  thb  cguntry 
aioae^  but  to  decide  upon  a  case  m  which  the 
Justness  of  your  decision  is  to  affect  the  inte- 
rest^ happiness  of  miUiops  in  another  piM 
of  tK  globe.  . 

Qm^mm;  ta  kying  Ihese  thinp  be^ 


[  sfaaU  be  obliged  to  go  iols  a  littie 

of  raatlavaef  whieh  I  c^gtveprao^ 

but  of  frfiich  I  don't  expect  to  be  called  upon 
for  a  strict  proof,  because  it  wiO  be  neeemiy 
tosute  to  you,  beforeloonetotalkof  llis 
actions  of  1776,  the  situation  of  the  psrties, 
and  the  relation  they  bear  to  one  anotlMr, 
and  the  affiur  upon  which  the  busiiisis  of  the 
scene  depended,  by  a  detail  of  (be  prior  his- 
tory eftnat  eeuntiy  as  short  as  I  ean  possUj 
make  it 

I  dare  say  it  is  known  to  most  of  you,  thtt 
Madras  was,  at  the  beginning  of  last  war,  the 
principal  settlement  uiis  country  possessed 
m  India,  It  is  likewise  not  unknown  to  jfoo, 
that  in  tiie  course  of  the  war,  and  a  little  m- 
tecedent  to  that,  a  project  had  been  forawd 
by  a  very  bold  an^  enterprisins  FreBchmsn, 
a  M.  Dupleix,  to  extirpate  the  J^Usb  totilly 
oot  of  the  East  Indies,  to  gain  to  his  nstioD, 
the  French,  aU  the  power  and  inflasDcse  of 
thatcount^:  Providence  turned  the  noject 
upon  the  author  and  hia  eountiy  2— -The  fio- 
secution  of  that  scheme  was  to  be  aeoon- 
plished  by  the  part  Duj^x  fouwl  mesas  to 
take  in  the  disp^ilesof  mateoiHitiy.iAwfakh 
to  that  tine  the  French,  the  En^^bsh,  tad  ill 
the  £uropeans  had  acted  a  very  udenor  pvt 
They  had  been  origmaUy  setlkd  m  latt  ftr 
the  purpose  of  tradii^  nod  before  thai  fvU 
had  very  little  share  m  those  disaealieBSthit 
had  prevailed  in  that  country.  Htdm, 
which  was  the  prindpal  Settlement  of  th^ 
English,  and  Pondicheny,  ^t  priQcip^  ^ 
tlement  of  the  French,  were  bo;th  within,  thi 
government  of  ArcQt.  Arcot  its<V  it  in  tbi 
government  of  a  larger  district  called  tth 
£>ecca.  About  tbe  period  I  have  beea  WJ- 
tioning  to  you,  the  governor  or  person  w 
had  ^e  govemmeot,  called  by  the  aseiCff 
sod^ak  of  the  Deoca,  who  poMedsed  %ei9 
ample  power  a  gvcat  votmy  years  thsi^  M 
leaving  a  dispvSad  aaooessieB  belwcia  w 
son  and  gAuMson;  and  nueh  aboiil  tte 
same  time,  th#  o^l)^  for  the  gpivvoor « 
Arcot  had  the  title  of  nabpb,,  was  kiw^ 
battle, leaving  his  children  young:  the  poBcf 
of  M.  Duplex  was  to  take  the  pait  of  oil  o^ 
the  competitors  for  the  goverBmcnl  of  tie 
Decca,  and  at  the  same  time  to  set  ep.t 
competitor  for  the  ffovemmeot  of  Aioo^  > 
opposition  to  the  son  of  tlie  nabobs  ^^^ 
well  known  by  the  name  of  MohaaunedAI^ 
and  as  the  present  nabob  of  $icot  war  •> 
gftged  in  a  war  attended  with  various  ^^"^ 
the  principal  p<Mnt  upon  the  part  of  the  w 
lish  was  the  establishW  of  M ohamoied  All* 
the  government  of  Arcot;  and  upoo  JJ 
French,  the  establishing  of  their  nabob  mtie 
government  of  the  Deoca.  In  the  coj«  «■ 
that  war,  after  a  variety  of  events  wen  i 
need  not  tell  you  are  not  materialtp  *yj 
sent  ol^qt  of  eoquiry^-^which  i»  QjjM^ 
make  you  understandthesituationof  IfoW**^ 
med  Ali,  Mihich.  I  take  to  be  emwmV^ 
cessaiy  to  the  eader^tandii^  theawp»; 
thia  caee^-rthe  wh9l»  Son^  d[  w  'MPfe 


1065] 


»HioHurt,Ji>r  d^foriiig  hard  Pigot. 


A.  D.  1779k 


[low 


vean.  with  mfiimsa]  approbailioB.  wA  gnat 
ooDour.  he  left  Itidia  in  this  conoiliOtt;  1km 
mthoh  Moheauned  Ali,  the  aodeot  fewKl  ef 
the  Godjpeii;r»ia  Alii  possettion  df  Antoty  the 

S)ah  of  Teajore  peyiiig  ibur  kcs  ef  nipeee  t» 
ohemmed  Ali,  guned  to  him  through  tht 
success  of  the  English  arms. 

Soon  aiW  .this  penod«-I  speefc  of  lovd 
Pigoi's  return  to  England-'^ohnifned  Alt, 
who  was  much  acquainted,  from  the  iater« 
course  he  had  with  our  countfymen  in  IndiB, 
with  the  language  and  policy  of  our  nation^ 
ooncdTod  tint  natural  disgust  thatapcrsoii 
greatly  obligated  is  apt  to  entertain,  of  nia  too 
powerftdpiotectors;  but, added  to  ttMtytedilfr 
eervation  of  what  had  happened  in  Bengal  in* 
spired  Mohammed  AUwita  what  he  eslSemed 
a  just  caution.  He  had  aeen  one  nabob  ovei» 
turned  by  the  servaBts  of  the  Compmi^  wiHi 
a  view  to  set  up  another  nabob,  by  whieh 
means  they  g^ed  profit  to  thea6isel¥es ;  Ahki 
nabob  overtmned  and  another  placed  in  hb 
situation,  and  that  nabob  overturned  agm; 
theobservatkm  of  which  inspired  Mohammed 
Aii  with  the  politic  scheme  of  guarding  him^ 
self  against  tne  like  inooorenienoss  upeo  hb 
nart  No  treasury  could  havestood  that  test; 
but  he  devised  to  himadf  a  acheae  of  buri* 
rowing  from  the  principal  servants  of  the 
Company  at  Madras  sums  of  money  al  4 
ooasideriible  interest,  either  paid  down  or  ii^ 
caured;  an  intsreat  once  so  high  as  95  ]^ 
cent  t  buiiowiiy  snns  of  money  at  soch  m- 
teres^  and  makmg  himsetf  a  debtor  to  tiKm^ 
gentieesflnyintlodiuoed  aoetiber  tiling,  which 
was  to  give  these  creators  assignments  upoa 
tiiere  were  two  upon  the'ceast  of  Ckwonaiide^i  portici£r  perti  of  his  ve^pcaue  for  their  peiy^ 
Mysore,  and  Tanjore;  the  tbM,  Plough  by  the  \  menft.  Tbmw^s  aftteaded  with  another  acU 
fortune  of  war,  succeeded  to  the  dommieii  of  j  vantage  to  himself:  those  assignmeals  warn 
the  nabob  of  Arcot    The  domittions  of  the  i  uapd^  pimad  hi  these  parti  wbennhe  coU 


upon  the  attack  of  Madias ;  if 
they  had  socceeded  in  that,  there  would  hawe 
been  an  end^f  the  Eiurlish  power  upon  the 
coast  of  Coromandel.  That  was  defended  by 
lord  Pigot^  the  governor,  in  1759.*  I  beUeve 
most  of  vou  are  not  nnacquamted  with  the 
itele  of  that  ne|;e,and  the  immense  merit  lord 
Pigot  then  acquired  with  this  nation  and  the 
East  India  Company,  for  the  vei^  able  and  ex« 
traocdinary  derate  of  Madras  inade  under  his 
ctmnnand.  The  French  were  repulsed,  and 
not  only  repulsed,  but  the  attack  returned 
upon  them,  the  Enfflsh  erms  laid  si^  to 
Pondscherry  and  to&  it  With  that  siege 
ended  the  French  power  upon  that  coast  en- 
tirely •  the  efiect  of  it  was,  that  in  I76e  there 
was  complete  peace  iqpon  the  ooast  of  Coro* 
mandel  where  Madras  ia  situated.  The  sue* 
oeas  of  the  English  anns  in  that  case  rqslored 
licrfiict  peace  to  aU  thto  places  upon  the  coast 
of  Coromandel,  and  established  Mohammed 
Alitnthefirmandundistnrbedjposseastonofhis 
gaveroment  of  Arcot  Lord  Pigot  led  him  by 
the  hand  throudi  all  ike  diffieultiea  of  that 
war,  till  he  left  nim  established  in  oomplaia^ 
safe,  and  seatre  possession  of  the  government 
of Aroot.  Besidesthe  govemment  of  Areot, 
there  are  two  other  powers  uponthe  coast  of 
Cktfomandel;  there  were  originally  thrae— 
these  are  ^governments^  not  under  tbe  Mogul 
ted  nabobs  the  officers  of  tlie  Mogul  powers, 
hut  others,  left  by  the  Mogul  prince  under 
the  government  of  the  successors  or  desean- 
dants  of  the  original  princes  of  ikt  conaftiy^ 
professing  tiie  original  rdisimief  thecouBtr^ 
and  commonly  known  by  uie  iiame  of  Rmah ; 


*  rajah  of  Tanjore  were  eseeedmglyrieh,  very  |  lection  moaS  be  exposed  to  daognv^T^^liKh 
fertile,  not  very  great  in  eatent,  and  not  very  !  neana  he  sasoicbd  tt»  hnnself  m-  sStong  port;y 


slrattg;  thererore  in  defence  of  the  coaiiary 
hfy  the  iribahitaats  in  the  eaaree  of  the  war 
%hat  ended  in  rrcau  wiMttever  part  the  nnah 
9i  Tanjore  had  tafcen^  timpeace  estahttsbed 
him  in  poeeesaion  ef  w  country,  anAeu^ect 
lathe  tribute  ancimlly paid  to  SheMsgah^ 
and  bcibre  coilacted  by  the  nabob.  %  tes 
UasSy  the  tribute  was  settled'  at  foar  lacs  «f 
rupees,  a  httle  abov»  eOyOOOi;  it  was.  to  be 
psdtotheaabobof  Arcet  Thus,  at  the  pe^ 
nod  when  brd  Figot  Ibft  his  govensment  in 
faidia^  which  he  had  earned  on  for  many 


mmmm 


m*^^ 


m*m 


i*i*a*' 


lbetow»  of 
IMewnbnr  ld«li»  1753^  tod  IhB  liflfci 
Mi  Iho  meniiiifr  orili0  tnb  •f  Pekrawy,  17501 
S0»  "A  9amfl^  Histopy  of  tM  Wmt  ui  Iaii|s» 
Urom  thd  y^  1740,  Ia  tiyo  takiag  of  PoodkbeDy  it 
17)61,"  p.  33. 

A  Torj,  copiom  apd.  clrGtuiuteiitis]  Narralivo  of 
tbe  oveaU  wbicK  occarrcd  doriog  tbe  siege  of  Ma* 
dras,  ia  gi^e^  by  MK  Oraie  ia  hii  Hiatoij  of  the 
Military  IVtpsactioDS  of  Ute  Brituh  Nation  ia  Iat 
dostan*  book  %0,  vol.  9,  p.  389,  Snd  edition.  See, 
fioo,  ■omoaocDimt  of  this  nege  hi  Ibe  ilemoirg  of 
Count  tMj,  pp!  14>  e««f. 


anen^thaservaatfr  c#  the  GonapaBy  at  Ma^ 
dna^  who  wen  intSreitad  m  the  presertation 
efhispawarya»iiBterestedin|aaiunaeiiectaal 
to  hhn  the  nseeeery  of  the  mdst  embarraesei 
and  dtfhxdt  part  of  hssroteauae,  £venfeii^ 
that  it  ia  not  naterhd  So  state^  aftsr  tbisi,  pna^ 
«boed  a  war  apon  the  coast  of.  Cerainiunhi^ 
wbach  was  camsd  en>bjf  HyderAlytheiUjail 
o^ftlysdeeyWhfch  was  tSfaDonaOed  bgr  no  taiy 
honourable  peace ;  Ihstotof  thttwaglrtaSa 
eniyaait  had  thaeftot'ta  utoraase  the eoa- 
penoss  ef  and  invaiffr  mm  Htlie  dificohf 
thosoatwitosecharge^itwascarrwdeiL  Ma^ 
hannned  AH  enseredinio  the  war,  and  a  eon^ 
deiaUe  part  of  the  charge  Ml  open  hiob  iltt 
the  eonehision  of  Shis  war,  the  twaaniy  «f 
Mobamneed  All  was  snppoaed  Us  baa  iittloe» 
haastef^and  for  the  paiposeof  OKtnejHnakay 
there  was  no  ▼ery  obyioaa  reemrer  for  bins 
hot  the  conntty  or  Tanjore.  I  stated  to  3f«« 
tboat  the  country  of  'nnyore  was  sobjeerto 
tile  annual  parent  of  fburlacs^df  suMBeKta 
the  nabob  of  Aroot  At  the  clescnof  tttet  war 
with  liydsr,  that  tribute  which  hs^roh  is  al4 
rearwB^demandedi  UpanthepartofthenQab 


1067] 


19  GEORGE  m.         ProceeHngs  MgamH  Geofge  SirMtUm         [IOCS 


«z^U8etf  were  made*  for  the  airear,  and  he  said 
he  and  his  eountiy  had  sufieredupon  account 
of  Ihe  war;  that  he  had  heen  at  considerable 
evpeoce  in  ihe.  aaaittance  he  save  in  that  war, 
that  he  was  to  compensate'  uiat  again  out  of 
the  arrearof  histHbute,  whieh  was  four  lacs 
of  rupees.  Upon  the  other  hand^  the  ]iretext 
vnti,  he  did  not  give  any  sincere  asslstanoe  to 
the  Company,  and  ought  to  nav  something 
upon  account  of  his. 'supposed  delinquency; 
and  the  servants  of  the  bampany^  veiyim^ 
properly,  and  in  an  instance,  as  much  deserv- 
ing repvehension  as  any  one  act  done  in  India, 
instituted  a  treaty,  in  which  they  agreed, — an 
violation  of  a  peace  made  in  which  the  rights 
of  the  nyah  of  Tanjore  were  the  object  grant- 
ed—4hey  agreed,  bv  the  }K>wer  of  the  Engli^ 
tiation,  to  attack  tms  rajah  of  Tanjore,  and 
assist  Mohammed  Ali,  and  put  him  in  pcoses- 
abn  of  the  city  of  Tanjore,  upon  a  pretence 
the  rajah  of  Tanjore  had  not  paid  that  tribute 
which  was  due  to  him.  Accordingly,  they 
inarched  and  attacked  Tanjore^  and  took  the 
place;  but  the  conclusion  of  that  affiurwas 
only  an  undertaking,  an  offer,  upon  the  part 
of  the  rajah'  of  Tanjore  to  save  tne  whpl^  t6 
pay  down  a  very  considerable  sum  of  money, 
of  which  money  he  was  forced  to  borrow  ihree 
fMUts.  When  thev  were  upon  the  point  of 
taking  the  town,  wnilst  stipulating  upon  those 
terms,  a  very  large  sum  ox  mooey'was  trans- 
mitted to  the  English  army  at  the  gates  of 
Tanjore;  they  accepted  of  a  veiy  large  sum 
of  mon^  as  an  indemnification  for  all  the 
expences  they  had  been  at,  and  a  considerable 
payment  was  made  to  Mohammad  Ah. .  The 
conduct  of  that  undertaking,  and  eveiy  thing 
felating  to  it,  met  with  disapfwobation  as  it 
deservM.    - 

This  treaty  beine  concluded,  and  the  rajah 
much  irapoverishea  by  the  resistance  he  had 
prepared  to  make,  and  the  term  A  whkh  he 
afterwards  did  make,  was  left  in  a  situation 
still  less  able  to  resist;  but  it  had  not  an* 
awered  the  purpose  intended  by  it,  and  very 
«oop  after  tnat,  a  new  governor  succeeded: 
in  consequence  of  which  a  new  war  was  set 
on  foot,  and  a  new  expedition  against  Ta&- 
joie;  for  upon  the  revival  of  the  several  pre- 
texts winch  had  been  used  before,  an  agree- 
ment was  made  to  p«it  M<^mmed  Ali  in  pos- 
session of  the  dominions  of  Tanjore  as  for- 
feited to  him,  and  (pive  him  the  intire  pos- 
session of  a  country,  the revenuesof  which 
amounted  to  a  milhon  sterling,  and  to  strip 
the  nyah  of  ^em  by  the  aid  of  tiie  Company's 
forces.  Thoee  forces  marched,  and,  aftier  a 
feeble  resistance,  the  whole  of  their  object 
was  compleled,  and  the  government  of  Tan- 
jore completely  overturned,  the  rajah  impri- 
soned)  and  Mohanuned  Ali  was  put  in  com- 
plete possession.  An  account  of  this  was 
sent  home  to  Europe ;  and  as  soon  a^  it  was 
sent  over  to  the  directors,  it  was  received 
with  the  most  complete  disapprobation,  and 
it  was  immediately  determineato  undo  every 
that  had  boen  dona  by  the  goyemor 


and  coonciL    The  Company  sent  out  orders 
to  remove  the  governor  and  reprimaod  tlia. 
council,  and  immedialely'to  restore  to  the 
rajah  of  Tanjore  the^  possession  of  his  donu* 
mons. 

;  To  accomplish -this  purpose,  lord  Pigot,-— 
who,  after  the  eryoyment  of  the  honours  of 
this  Company  for  a  great  many  vears,  was 
ready  again  to  offer  his  services  and  return  to 
India, — ^waa^ient  out  as^vemor  to  the  settiA- 
ment,  and  was'  sent  out  for  the  express  paF« 
pose,  and  with  an  express  commission,  after 
removijB^  the  than  governor  and  agnifyins 
the  reprmiand  of  the  directors  to  the  coimci^ 
immeoiately  to  restore  to  the  nyah  of  Tanjore 
the  possession  of  the  dominions  then  claimed 
by  Mohammed  Ali:  Gentlemen,  youcan  scatoa 
conceive  a  gentleman:  better  qualified  for  the 
office  put  upon  him  than  lord  Pigot  seemed 
to  be ;  with  respect  to  Mahomed  Ali,  the  in* 
ffueace  lord  I^got  had  justly  ac^uinsd  willi 
him; — ^he  havine  been  therefrom  the  year 
1755,  and  had  caused  the  restoradon  of  all 
the  dominions  hb  &ther  ever  possessed  to 
him,  more  secure  and  more  amply  provided 
for,  which  certainly  egve  him  every  aegree  of 
influence  respect  ana  grathude  coiud  inspire : 
With  fespect.to  the.  members  of  the  council 
whom  he  found  at  Madras^  they  wext  all,  I 
believe,  planted  by  his  own  hand;  some  of 
them,  the  young  men  of  his  household,  bred 
up  in  his  family,  the  foundation  of  whose  for- 
tunes he  had  laid  before  he  left  Madras; 
otliers  of  ^em,  whose  age  did  not  put  tbens 
in  siich  situation,- but  were  older  men,  whom 
his  goodness  hisd  dnmd  out  of  obscurt^; 
in  s£>rt,  one  aiul  all,  ifthey  had  the  feelings 
of  men,  must  have  felt  thc/iespectand  re- 
verenoe  due  to  a  patron  and  bene&ctor :  and 
in  respect  to  the  settlement  at  large,  lord 
Pigot  carried  with  him  fram  this  country-^ 
what  he  always  maintained  in  that  coaittiT» 
and  what  he  carried  with  him  to  an  untimely 
erave— -the  character. of  possessing  an  mw 
daunted  resolution  and  an  tmconupted  ii^ 
tegrity.    With  such  qualifications,  no  maa 
ccmld  have  been  chosen  more  apt  or  fit  to 
execute  that  office  committed  toium,  difficult 
and  delicate  as  it  was,  without  commotion 
and  disturbance,  by  the  mere  forte  of  autho- 
rity, and  by  the  mere  reverence  and  respect 
due  to  virtue  and  lawfiil  commands.  'So  ac- 
complished, lord  Pigot  1^  this  country,  and 
arrived  in  that.    Now  mark  the  sequel,  and 
what  followed :  What  I  have  hitherto  stated, 
I  thought  extremely  necessary  for  your  under- 
standing Uie  case.   It  was  not  the  impertinent 
narrative  of  one  who  delights  to  relate  stories 
of  facts,  which  stand  a  little  aloof  from  th§ 
circumstances  of  the  present  information.    I 
now  come  to  drcumstancea  which  rcquirtf 
your  close  attention  and  minute  investigation, 
and  more  precision  in  stating.     " 

Gentlemen,  lord  Pieot  arrived  in  Decem- 
ber 1775.  As  soon  as  ne  came  with  the  com- 
mission of  goyemor,  his  first  ol^ect  waste 
cany  into  execution  the  inunediate  older  and 


loeffj 


Mnd  others fjbr  deposing  Lord  Pigat. 


A.  D.  17791 


tWl9 


jttsectbns  of  the  Company,  for  the  restitution 
of  Tanjore  to  the  rajah ;  and  upon  the  first 
opening  of  the  business,  there  did  not  seem 
to  be  any  material  difficulty  to  oppose  lord 
Figot;  he  was  received  by  the  settlement 
at  large  with  all  the  respect  and  reverence 
which  always  accompanied  lord  Pigot.  The 
members  Of  the  council  all  seemed  to  pay 
respect  to  lord  Pigot,  and  deference  to  the 
commands  of  the  Company.  Upon  the  part 
of  the  nabob,  the  sa;tisfaction  ,to  see-  again 
his  ancient  friend,  his  father,  hb  protector, 
was  eiqnessed  in  all  the  terms  or  Eastern 
exag^ration,'  and  his  visits  and  attention  to 
lordPigot  were  uninterrupted,  and  such  as 
lord  Pigot  mi^t  have  expected  from  a  person 
standing  so  highly  indebted  as  the  nabob  did 
to  him.  When  they  came  to  the  particulars 
of  the  business,  upon  the  part  of  the  nabob 
there  was  no  direct  and  positive  refusal  when 
lord  Pigpt  signified  the  orders  of  the  Company 
to  him ;  but  the  industry  of  the  nabob  was 
eimploved  to  gain  time,  to  start  delays,  to  state 
^UfiSculties,  to  make  objections ;  upon  the  part 
of  lord  Pigot,  his  first  object  b^ing  to  restore 
possesion  to  the  rajahv  which  he  intimated  to 
nim  in  consequence  of  the  resolution  of  the 
council — ^I  don't  particularlv  state  it,  they  are 
mU  ready  in  court  and  may  be  called  for— lord 
Pigot  intimated  to  him,  the  Company's  forces 
must  be  sent  to  take  'possession  of  Tanjore : 
upon  the  nabob's  paxt,  his  answer  was  very 
guarded  and  polite ;  Tai^ore,  he  said,  was  his ; 
vie  Company  were  his  friends,  and  his  friends' 
troops  therefore  might  march  and  take  pos- 
aession  of  any  place  that  was  his.  The  set- 
ting up  a  claim  at  the » same  time  that  he 
qmttea  possession  was  incompatible  with  the 
orders  lord  Pigot  carried  oCit;  however  meet- 
ing with  all  the  punctualities  and  preiudices  of 
an  Eastern  mind,  the  answer  of  loru  Pigot  to 
the  nabob  was  civil,  that  the  orders  of  the 
Company  were  to  take  possession ;  that  they 
would  take  possession  without  any  conftision 
and  disturbance ;  but  signifying,  at  the  same 
time,  that  the  ordexs  must  be  obeyed^  and  that 
they  could  not  admit  his  claim  to  Tai\)ore.  The 
xial)ob  stated  he  had  been  at  great  expenqes, 
smd  the  claim  of  merit  which  he  had  with  re- 
spect to  this  nation,  but  which  had  been  fully 
compensated  by  the  national  respect  shewed 
him ;  lord  Pigot  was  urged  only  to  delay  till 
representation  could  be  made  to  England  by 
mn  application  to  the  court  of  directors,  who, 
be  said,  perhaps  were  not  rightly  informed  of 
all  the  circumstances  of  the  case ;  he  desired 
a  little  forb&rance,  and  protection  from  the 
fxecution  of  the  orders,  and  to  give  him  time; 
but  if  persisted  in,  the  nabob  would  not  break 
with  the  Engtish ;  but  he  desired  forbearance 
to  make  new  application  to  the  court  of  direc- 
tors. All  these  acts,  accompanied  with  all 
the  demonstrations  of  ^good  will,  politeness, 
and  attention  applicable  to.eastcm  potentates, 
of  the  consequence  nabobs  usually  are,  lord 
Pigot  without  any  difficulty  was  ^mg  to  pro- 
ce^  upon  I  the  business  mat  wiia  no  sort  of 


obstruction  from  the  ooundl  at  first,,  m  far 
from  that,  an  instance  happened  sA  one  o£  the 
coimcils,  the  date  I  don't  recollect,  one  of 
the  defendants,  Mackay,  proposed^  as  tba 
shortest  method  of  ending  thb'  busmess,  to 
take  the  nabob  prisoner;  and  having  seized 
his  person  and  put  him  in  prison,  then  toiake 
possession  of  Taiyore,  and  do  as  he  pleased. 
With  what  intention  that  proposal  was  mads 
by  Mr.  Mackay  you  are  to  judge  by  the  seouei. 
Whether  he  intended  to  embroil  or  precipitate 
matters,  or  intended  so  to  alarm  the  nabob 
as  to  make  him  try  other  means  of  applica- 
tion, if  those  means  of  applying  to  lora  ngot 
were  not  successful,  you  are  to  form  your 
own  opinion.  Another  member,  sir  itohert 
Fletcher,  was  not  of  opinion  to  seize  .the 
nabob's  person ;  sir  Robert  Fletcher's  opinion, 
as  a  soldier,  agreeable  to  his  profession,  was 
not  to  wait  those  tedious  delays  add  serious 
formality  with  an  eastern  prince,  but  to  march 
the  troops  at  once  briskly  upon  the  business; 
to  take  Tanjore  and  all  me  country  by  force  ; 
but  the  opinion  was,  all  this  was  to  be  done 
provided  so  great  an  officer  as  himself  was  to 
take  the  command ;  and  then  the  first  pos- 
session of  Tanjore,  especially  with  a  little  ap^ 
pearance  of  resistance,,  is  attended  with  con- 
sequences which  I  need  not  particularlv  point 
out  to  your  observation.    Neither  of  these 

{>rojepts  did  lord  Piflpt  adopt ;  neither  the  mi- 
itary  one  of  sir  Robert  Fletcher,  nor  the 
bailm-like  one  of  Mr.  Mackay,  of  seizing  the 
nabob  by  force  when  there  was  no  occasion 
for  makins  him  a  prisoner.  Lord  Pigot  chose 
to  proceea  in  his  own  way ;  this  certainly  was 
not  an  obstniction  that  led  lord  Pigot  to  think 
he  had  nothing  to  do  but  to  moderate  the  zeal 
of  the  council  to  carry  into  execution  the 
orders  of  the  Company :  lord  Pigot  found  the 
Company's  forces  on  the  9th  of  February  1776 
took  possession  of  Tanjore ;  the  nabob,  as  I 
have  already  stated  to  yoii,  having  given  that 
consent,  but  qualifying  that  with  a  sentence 
lord  Pi^t  was  not  content  with ;  but  at  tho 
same  time  he  avoided  any  occasion  of  quarrel 
or  offence  with  the  nabob.  In  the  mean  time 
this  was  only  taking  possesion  of  the  town 
and  fort  of  Tai^ore :  The  n^,  I  ought  to 
have  stated,  who  was  a  prisoner  at  Tanjore, 
was,  upon  tl)e  Company's  forces  taking  pos« 
session,  set  at  liberty ;  but  this  was  not  re- 
storing the  rajah  to  the  possosabn  of  tiio 
country,  which  means  restoring  him  to  the 
possession  of  the  revenues ;  to  restore  him,  to 
the  possession  of  the  capital,  and  leave  the  re» 
venues  and  the  whole  district  of  the  countiy 
round,  was  not  sufficient  ;v  for  in  that  country 
the  revenues,  which  consist  of  the  corn  etow« 
ing  upon  the  land,  are  collected  in  kino,  the 
revalues  of  that  corn  and  grain -are  collected 
in  kind :  upon  that  the  prince  depends  fi)r  hit 
subsistence; .  the  share  of  the  crop  is  the  re- 
venue of  the  prince.  Lord  Pigot  thought  tho 
shortest  way  to  settle  all  these  disputes,  anc^ 
the  safest  way,  was  to  have  it  attended  with 
the  least  violence,  was  not  to  l^ve  it  to  infeiior 


loni 


19  GEORGE  III.         PfoeeeAigs  t^oma  George  SInrftos         [1078 


ywjMUstmt  Id  ifll  wit  biiacelffwwi  Madras  to 
Tttgoitty  mad  upon  the  spot  lo  give4b«  proper 
Older  lor  piiltii^  the  nyah  m  possession  of  bie 
country,  ^nt  is^  the  revenues  of  bis  country : 
another  dianpstsnre  nsde  it  neeessan  to 
piusae  thisol]^cty  that  is,  the  sessoo  of  the 
year  was  so  fiur  advanced  the  state  Qf  the  crop 
.made  it  neoesiary  there  should  be  a  decision 
vposi  the  collection  of  the  crop,  and  the  pos- 
aesaioa  of  it;  to  have  let  the  matter  rest  in 
fluspence  vrould  have  been  to  have  left  the 
nabob  in  po8s«nibn  of  the  revenues  of  Tanjoie 
thatyeaTy  and  in  actual  possession  of  the  crop ; 
and  there  would  have  been  more  stroggle, 
vMence,  and  difficulty,  to  recover  the  posses- 
sion <if  that  from  him  and  his  pef»ple  after  he 
hud  QDce  taken  possession,  than  ts  procesd  to 
.put  the  countiy  under  the  re^ar  disfributioB 
of  officers  acting  under  the  rMah,  and  by  them 
to  collect  the  revenues  fitf  the  current  year. 
In  March  1776,  it  vvas  moved  in  the  eeuneil 
§or  knd  Pigot  to  prooeed  to  Tanjere,  ta  cany 
Into  effect  the  Company^s  orders;  and  after 
discussing  that  in  counciL  they  unanimously 
agroed,  upon  the  S5th  of  March  UTd^  that 
lord  P%ot  should  proceed  to  Tanjore  to  carry 
info  cAect  the  Company's  ordersy  the  state  of 
the  crop  not  admitliDg  aji^feither  delay;  I 
beg  to  Ksep  that  adaussion  in  your  memory, 
as  1  shall  find  occasion  to  refer  to  it  hereafter, 
*  thestale  of  die  crop  not  admittinj^  any  farther 
delay,'  so  that  carry  mg  into  execution  the  Com- 
pan  it's  orders  of  putting  the  rajah  in  possession 
of  the  country,  tne  revenues  of  which  was  the 
crop,  was  the  subject  of  consideration. 

Gentlemen;  Ipassovertheminutesofsome 
fandls  which  made  their  appearance  first  in 
tloB  council ;  thou^  they  were  unanimous  in 
the  resolution,  yet  thero  seemed  to  have  been 
a  push  made  to  induce  lord  Pigot  to  take  vritii 
ban  as  coadjutors  some  others  of  the  members 
af  the  council;  it  wsanot  put  to  the  vote  di*- 
fectly,  bttt  in  a  consMltstion  ^i^nch  is  to  be 
lead,  you  will  find  a  peevish  and  an  angry  mi« 
ante  of  sir  Robert  Ftetcher'Sy  thmigh  agreeing 
in  the  main,  and  not  dissentii^  dueetiy; 
whether  that  wns  firom  the  efiect  of  ill  hn- 
nour,  OS  to  pro^rake  a  degree  of  ill  humour  in 
lord  Bi^ty  yott  are  not  now  to  eMjuire ;  birt 
lord  Pigot  putan  end  to  all  the  disputes  by 
agreeing  withous  an^  sesokrtion  or  order  of 
council  ta  talce^  in  his  company  two  gentle- 
men, Iheone^  a  Mr.  Pahjympile^  and  an«ther 
miMnher  of  tha-eOuactl  in  Inina^  who  is  net 
pacticubrly  connected  with  lonl  Pigot^  who 
was  afterwards,  in  the  oppo8itien>  whosename 
waaJoucdan;  thosetwo  gentlemen' he  agreed 
to  can7  with  him  to  Tanjore.  Thus  &r  we 
Jiaye  seen  att  harmony,  all  ureement^  all 
nntty^  towards  the  main  point  ofcarrying  into 
wtfcutian  the  Company's  orders^  and  restoring 
the  possassion  of  Taiyore  to  the  rajs^  Just 
before  lotd  Pigot  set  out  fiir  Taniore,  he  Was, 
but  slightly^  told  of  some  Claims  on  the  Tan- 
jote  country,  which  a  Mr.  Benfield;  a  person 
I:  sliali.often  have  occasion  to  mention  to  you, 
~^*«^  a^tameootauU&auliartolord  Pigot; 


▼ei^  possibly  Europeans  might  have  ^ 
chums  in  the  Tanjore  countiy;  lordl^iBOtat 
the  ttme  it  tnk  first  mentioned  pahl  fitUe  at* 
Isntiea  to  it,  he  set  off  fiw  Taijore;  this 
claim  at  first  was  not  attended  with  consider- 
sbie  difficulties;  they  were easilv surmounted 
by  the  temper  or  firmness  wiln  which  losd 
Pigot  conducted  himself;  this  Mr.  Beafield 
d^vered  inaletter  to  lord  Pigot,  destrins  laid 
Pipt  to  interfere  upon  the  sidbject  of  this 
daon :  lord  Pigot  thoi^t  him  to  be  a  very 
small  and  inconsiderable  man,  and  with  tfaia 
idea^  he  was  not  a  little  astonished  when  thsa 
person  talked  big  of  mortsajifss  and  as8^;n- 
meats  aubdc  bythe  nabob  tohimof  ^Tanfoae 
countiy  to- the  aaoount  in  English  moaerof 
HbQ^MbL  simposed  to  be  lent  by  this  Ife 
fienfield  to  the  nabobs  upon  securilgr  pwtm  hgf 
the  nabob  on  tiie  revenue  of  theTaiyocaeoun- 
try.    You  wtU  observe  the  revenues. of  that 
couqtry  amounted  annually  to  l,OQCigP0Ol..  s# 
that  one  fourth  of  the  revenues  of  tfaiscoun* 
try  was  mortgaged  hjf  the  nabob  to  thia  Mr. 
Beafield'for  security  ur  the  like  sum  of  iMiMf 
bdrrowed  by^  him  of  Mr.  Benfiekt.    When 
Beftfield  gmvely  talked  of  this  demand^  and 
in  very  magnificent  termsy  somewhat  bolder 
than  he  hacr  at  firsts  he  cautioned  lord  Pigot 
not  to  give  up  the  possession  of  these  sav»' 
naea  without  the  intervention,  of  that  dain^ 
which  he,  Mr.  Benfield,  set  up  upon  theui. 
Lord  Pigot  in  return  to  this  manifestn  or 
epistle^  gave  a  very  dry  and  cool  answer  and 
referved  nim  to  the  council  ai  Madras  add 
said  be  only  came  there  to  execute  the  orden 
of  the  Company,  and  put  the  rajah  of  Tanioei 
in  possessioD  of  those  dominions;  as  for  other 
business  or  claims  upon  that  country,  he  most 
apply  to  the  council ;  and  concluded  with-  an 
observation  that  such  a  claim  was  in  oppose 
tion  to' the  Company's  orders. 

Gentlemen;  I  omitted  in  its  proper  placets 
state  the  debt  contracted  by  the  nabob  witfa 
the  Company's  servants,  had  been  carried  ea 
year  after  5«ar  ajpinst  the  orders  of  the  Com* 
pany,  in  spite  of  their  orders;  indeed  it  was 
at  last  grown  to  such  a  hcaght,  they  gave  op 
theattemptto  controul  it,  it  appeared  to  aflbct 
the  piopertyof  so  many  people;  andhaweOsd 
to  above  tRwmillions.  sterling,  according  to  its 
present  caSe^  notwithslandii(i2  repeated  orders 
of  th»  Company  again  aiKl  a^in  i^jaiaA 
Europeans  and-  servants  of  the  Company  coan* 
mitting  aftj^  sorti  of  oppresuoa,  ana  above  aR 
Mainst  their  lending  money  to  the  princes  of 
the  country,  fi>r  the  most  obvum  of  all  rsa* 
sons,  he  sfaiould  not  be  a  leader  ot  money  in  a 
country,  who  has  more  power  ti)anano|lMr 
man,  tor- that  would  be  the  means  of  <mna* 
sion ;  notwithstanding  the  great  debt  ottaa 
miliiona  to  the  Company'sssnants,  which  te 
Company  had  winked  at,  being  compelled  te 
it  perhapsi  they  therefore  at  Uist  had  saatioid 
Pi^t,  who  thought  their  orders  not  attended 
to  in  the  supposed  loan  of  BenfieUPs.  BeofieM 
applied  to  tne  council  before  my  lord  PSgol 
rstMine4firomTaiijoie>  they  very  pfopedjy  sit 


WIS] 


and.  atherttjbr  deponng  Lord  P^oi. 


A.  D.  1779; 


[1074- 


to  lord  PisDt  the  copj  of  Bcnfield's  lettei;  to 
them ;  and  did  Qot  proceed  upon  this  business 
till  a^r  the  return  of  lord  Pigot. — GenUe- 
men,  I  must  desire  yoii  will  here  let  mc  in- 
terrupt for  a  moment  the  thread  of  my  narra- 
tive, to  state  that  about  the  time  Mr.  Beniield 
complains  to  the  council,  you  will  find  a  com- 
plaint made  by  the  nabob  of  >the  seizure  of  a 
servant  of  bis  at  a  place  called  Ariclore.  Upon 
the  5th  of  May  lord  Pigot  returned  to 
Madras ;  he  set  outthe  25th  of  March,  settled 
the  business  at  Tanjore,  and  returned  the  5th 
of  May ;  he  laid  before  the  council  a  diary  of 
Ms  whole  proceedings  at  Taqjore.  The  coun- 
cil having  examined  all  those  proceedings  at 
Tanjore,  approved  in  general  of  all  he  had 
done  all  the  time,  I  thmk,  excepting  only  the 
scrupulous  Mr.  Mackay,  who,  tnopgh  he  had 
been  of  opinion  that  it  was  highly  expedient 
to  seize  the  person  of  the  nabob,  to  maice  him 
a  prisoner,  in  order  to  carry  into  execution  the 
Company's  orders, — jet,  truly,  his  delicacy  was 
exceedingly  offended,  he  took  notice  of  it  in 
the  minutes,*-~of  lord  Pigot's  having,  as  he 
supposed,  seized  in  the  town  a  runaway 
servant  of  the  Rajah's,  who  had  run  away 
with  books  of  accounts.  Such  a  difference  had 
happened  bctweeif  January  and  May  in  the 
nund  of  Mackay  *.  however  that  was  but  a 
slight  matter,  and  the  farther  discussion  of 
that  business  shewed  the  whole  was  misin- 
formation and  founded  upon  mistake ;  there 
-was  not  the  least  eroiind  for  that  complaint. 
Soon  after  this,  Mr.  Benfield's  claim  came 
forwards,  and  notice  was  taken  at  the  council 
of  the  claims  he  had  made,  and  a  day  was 
given  to  Benfield,  and  a  letter  written  to  him, 
to  produce  the  vouchers  of  his  claims,  and  give 
evidence  in  support  of  them.  After  seversJ 
appointments  to  take  into  consideration  his 
claim,  and  notices  to  come  with  his  vouchers, 
they  proce^ed,  upon  the  29th  of  May,  upon 
Mr.  Benfield's  claims.  I  shall  enoeavour 
now,  to  state  to  you  who  Benfield  is,  and  what 
are  tiie  claims  he  has.  In  the  first  place,  as  to 
who  Mr.  Benfield  is,  I  am  really  at  a  loss,  for 
after  all  the  enquiries  of  them  who  are  like^ 
to  know,  I  cannot  find  the  least  trace  of  Mr. 
Benfield,  m  the  early  part  of  his  history ;  I 
am  not  enabled  to  go  farther  back  than  1779. 
In  1772,  Benfield  was  the  Company's  servant 
in  such  a  situation,  that  he  was  offered  a  pre- 
ferment to  go  third  in  command'  to  a  settle- 
ment at  a  place  called  Balambanga.  It  was 
then  thousht  a  preferment  for  him;  Benfield 
understoou  his  own  affairs  better,  and  declined 
that  offer  and  did  not  go ;  but  so  little  was  he 
in  a  situation  to  chuse  tor  himself,  that  he  was 
suspended  for  refusing  to  go  third  in  council 
to  Balamban^  in  the  year  1772.  In  the 
year  1773,  it  4S  understood  he  got  bv  some 
mean^  or  other  into  the  nabob's  family.  In 
1774  the  suspension  was  taken  off,  and  he 
was  restored  and  again  appointed  a  junior 
merchant  in  the  Company's  service,  with  a 
salary  of  108  pounds  a  year.7— In  1774,  this 
gentleman  had  tliis  Salary  as  a  junior  mer- 
VOL.  XXL 


chant  in  l!he  Company's  service^ — and  in. 
i775,  he  is  lending  money  to  the  nabob  to  tho 
amount  of  250,000/.,  which  he  asserted  to  be 
his  own !  He  must  be  possessed  of  a  most 
singular  art  of  makingjgoid  in  India,  if  by  the 
savings  from  asalaryofl  08/.  a  year,  250,000/. 
could  be  lent  by  him.  This  is  sdl  I  know ;  if 
I  could  trace  his  iiistorv  fartlier  I  should  be 
very  glad  to  give  it.  I  shall  talk  Very  boldly ; 
I  hazard  nothing ;  if  I  have  given  a  wrong 
account  of  him,  it  is  easy  to  set  me  right :  I  ' 
have  heard  that  Mr.  Benfield  has  put  up  for 
the  post,  and  is  a  candidate  for,  the  goVem^ 
ment  of  Madras.  Now  let  me  state  what 
this  gentleman's  claims  were;~^there  are 
four  articles :  first,  he  advances  in  the  months 
of  August,  September,  October,  1775,  to  thfr 
nabobs  son,  to  enable  him  to  lend  money  to 
the  inhabitants  of  Tanjore,  in  order  to  cultivate 
the  ground  for  the  crop  of  the  next  year,  for 
whicn  il  is  said  the  inhabitants  bonds  were, 
deposited,  129,629  pagodas;  an  assignment 
of  part  of  the  revenues  of  the  Tanjore  country, 
taken  in  November  t775,for  369,000  pagodas; 
the  two  other  articles  are,  the  one  a  drafi 
upon  the'  collectors  in  a  part  f:}^  the  Tanjore 
country  for  ,15,000  pagodas  without  any  .date 
specified;  but  the  money  said  to  be  lent 
generally  in  1774 ;  the  other  a  draft  of  the 
like  kind,  upon  another  collector,  for  the  sum 
of  30,000  pagodas,  without  any  specified  date, 
but  asserted  to  be  lent  in  January  1775, 
whkh  make  all  together  533,000  pagodas ;  in 
the  whole,  I  think,  about  850,000/.  staling.* 
Now  let  me  beg  a  little,  that  you  will  carry 
your  attention  to  the  dates  here;  upon  the 
first  article,  the  advance  of  monev  begins  i^ 
August  1775 ;  upon  the  2nd  article,  the  as- 
signment bears  date  only  in  November  1775; 
wnen  the  money  was  advanced  is  not  at  all 
stated ;  upon  the  two  last  articles,  the  dates 
of  the  draughts  upon  the  collector  of  Taqjor^ 
are  not  given :  the  nabob,  which  is  certamly 
true,  was  in  the  courpe  of  the  year  1775  in 
possession  of  the  Tanjore  country ;  but  I  wiU 
prove  to  vou,  that  it  was  perfectly  known  to 
the  nabob,  and  that  it  was  peifectly  well 
understooQ  by  the  members  of  the  council  of 
the  settlement  of  Madras,  so  early  as  the 
month  of  May  1775,  that  the  Company  was 
to  restore  this  country  to  the  Rajah  of  the 
Tanjore  country.  ~  Gentlemen,  you  will  mark 
the  effect  of  that  circumstance, — it  was  per-* 
fectly  known  in  May,  by  the  nabob  and  by 
those  concerned  in  the  government  of  Ma- 
dras, that  the  orders  of  the  Company  were, 
to  come  and  restore  to  the  Rajah  of  Tanjore 
his  countrjr ; — to  take  assignments  therefore, 

'*  With  sespect  to  thcne,  and  other  somewhat 
similar  tranMaetions  in  which  Mr.  Panl  Benfield  was 
conoemed,  see  Mr.  Burke's  admirable  speech  in  \h% 
House  of  Commons,  Febniary  S8,  t785>  on  tli* 
Nabob  of  Arool's  Debts-^Burke's  Works,  vol.  4» 
p.227,[8vo.e<tit.ofl802.]  SoetooiothoBdinbars^li 
Review,  vol.  20,  pp.  113,  114,  some  passages  re* 
lating  to  Mr,  Paal  Benfiald  cited  from  the  above^ 
mentioned  speech  of  Mr.  Burke, 
3  Z 


ms] 


19  GEOItGS  in.         Pirocmfdmgi  ogfttfrxt  Gtorge  SifMon       [lOfA 


alM}  advtnce  motiey  in  tht  mooth  <if  Amnt, 
after  that  ^^«s  known,  was  not  A  very  fftiSex- 
peritnent  for  those  who  wished  to  put  tput 
their  mone/  vipoA  dure  ieciinties;-— to  give 
assignments  was  not  a  Very  diScuH  matter 
for  those  who  knew  what  was'  the  nabob's 
case,  that  the  possesaion  of  the  revenues  of 
that  country  were  not  to  belong  to  him. 
Oentlemen,  I  stated  to  you,  Mr.  Benfieki 
was  by  many  orders  appmed  to  produce  his 
voudbers;  you  will  hear  from  me  ooiisuHa- 
tionSf — I  shall  desire  to  have  them  read, — 
no  proof  was  Offered;  nothing  that  tended  to 
estimlish,  or  give  a  colour  for,  a  supposition 
that  Beniield  could  have  lent  the  money :  if 
he  had,  was  it  difficult  to  prove  it?  Good 
Cod !  if  any  of  you  had  lent  a  som  of  money, 
a  som  great  in  proportion  to  your  drcum- 
dances,  though  pernaps  not  beating  affinity 
to  350,000/.;  if  you  had  lent  a  considerable 
sum,  couM  not  yon  prove  the  advancement  of 
the  money?  Of  all  nets,  thfcre  are  no  facts  so 
plain  to  l>cj>roved.— How  does  he  attempt  to 
pove  it  ?  He  gives  no  colour  to  suppose  he 
had  the  money  to  advance :  my  credibility 
would,  I  must  own,'  have  disposed  me  to  hesi- 
tate a  good  deal  upon  all  he  offi;red  to  pro- 
duce, n^hat  does  he  say  as  to  the  several 
assi^ments  ?  Oh !  they  are  registered  at  the 
cutcnerry;  I  have  the  certificate  of  the 
nabob's  officer ;  but  the  nabob  will  acknow- 
ledge it  all. — ^That  is  to  prove  the  advance 
of  money. — In  such  a  case  the  supposition  is^ 
no  money  has  beeh  advanced ;  andivhere  the 
s\i8picion  is  tliat  all  is  a  fiction,  all  a  fraud, 
ana  all  a  contrivance,  I  am  bold  to  hazard  the 
<*onjecture,  that  the  whole  was  a  device  to 
keep  the  nabob  in  possession  of  the  revcnaes 
of  that  year ;  with  a  chance  for  what  might 
happen  to  keep  that  possession  longer,  with 
411  tne  advantage  of  gatning  one  year's  pos- 
session to  himself,  for  which  he  was  to  pay  at 
tfie  moderate  compensation  of  25  per  cent. : 
therefore  the  nabob  says,  **  let  me  receive  the 
"  Revenue  of  a  millioh,  and  I  will  give  950,000/. 
for  it ;  I  will  pay  it  to  Mr.  Beimeld,  let  hhn 
»make  the  best  interest  he  can,  and  make  ^e 
best  use  he  can  of  these  assignments:" — ^there- 
fere  he  was  to  give  Benfield  alone  t5  per  cent. 
'  to  secure  the  remaining  75  per  cent:  **  Then 
'  let  Mr.  Benficld  alone  move  this  vast  machine, 
let  him  secure  this  revenue  to  me,  and  let  him 
fake  this  25  per  cent. ;  he  knows  the  method 
of  coming  at  it,  and  may  apply  for  these 
assignments  as  he  thinks  proper;" — this  is 
the  suspicion. — Is  this  Suspicion  removed  by 
the  acknowled^ent  of  the  nabob,  signed  l^ 
the  nabob's  officer,  that  is  registerea  at  the 
cu^cherry?.  Where  are  the  vouchers  for  the 
real?  What  say  you  as  to  the  articles  of  the 
money  advanced  ?  That  goes  a  little  beyond 
the  nabob;  the  first  article  of  the  three 
months  August,  September,  and  October,  is 
for  money  advanced  to  the  nabob's  son, — bul 
tn  order  to  enable  him  to  lend  money  to  th^ 
tnhahilants  of  the  country — the  cidtivalorB  of 
tba  landy-^for  whieh  the  bonds  of  tke.  inha* 


bkants  are  supposed  to  b^  deposited  with  Mr. 
Benfiekl.  Where  are  those  bands?  Why, 
says  he,  they  are  either  reosterad  in  the 
cutcherry,  or  in  the  hands  S  some  of  niy 
people  to  the  southward.  I* dare  say  you 
douDt  a  little  whether  soch  a  case  will  turn  oat 
in  proof;  I  state  tt  to  be  an  impudent  asser- 
tion, which  he  does  not  attempt  to  prove;  but 
after  repeated  notice,  to  be  read^  with  fab 
vouchers  and  bonds,  be  contents  himsdf  trilh 
saying  generally,'  Oh !  they  are  registered  in 
the  cutcherry,  or  in  the  hands  of  some  of  my 
people  to  the  southward !— Is  this  a  proper 
way  of  talking  of  proofs  ?  Was  Mr.  BenfieM 
reckoning  the  people  lo  the  southward  indis- 
criminatdy  as  mhabitants  of  the  soutfawitd, 
from  whom  he  was  to  receive  the  rents  f  Who 
they  were  does  not  appear. 

This  is  his  account  at  the  time  of  meeliog 
the  council.    It  struck  the  gentlemen  preseot 
so  forcibly,  that  Mr.  Ben&ld's  assignmenU 
being  opened  and  disclosed  lo  them,  there 
was  not  so  full  a  communication  as  oosfat  to 
be  had  upon  the  subject;  and  the  resomtian 
of  the  council  upon  the  S9thof  May  was,  tint 
the  assigmnents  were  not  admissible;  and 
that  the  claim  of  Benfield  upon  the  mbafai- 
tants  in  genend  was  not  suffideOtly  eiphined; 
and  that  Benfield's  claims  in  general  were 
of  a  private  nature :— a  veiy  wise  deteniufli- 
tion;  and,  I  dare  say,  from  the  stale  of  tbe 
case,  you  will  think  it  veiy  just,— that  bii 
assignments  mere  not  admissible,  that  the 
claims  of  Mr.  Benfield  upon  tiie  inhabitttrti 
in  general,  were  of  a  private  and  not  of « 
public  nature.    So  end^  this  council,  i^ 
the  t9^  of  May,  upon  Mr.  Benfield^s  daim 
Now,  yon  will  be  astonished  to  hear,  that  a 
so  short  a  space- of  time,  as  from  the  S9Ch«f 
May  to  the  3rd  of  June,  by  what  msff^I 
know  not,  ptAnfs  you  may  guess,  Mr.  Ben- 
field's  chums,  which  had  appeared  to  the  coO' 
oil  m  general  in  the  lignt  I  staled  to  yMt 
struck  the  mind  of  a  Mr.  Broo^  one  of  the 
members  of  that  council,  in  m  v«ry  diftrent 
way  :*-Mr.  Brooke  was  aeited  with  tetnont 
at  the  iiijustice  he  had  done  Benfiekf;  there 
was  a  wonderful  conversion  wrought  ilpon  his 
mind  in  4  days;  and  in  a  coimcu  hdd  npon 
the  8d  of  June,  Mr.  Brookctnoved  to iwbb- 
siderthe  resolution  upon  Mr.  Bcttfield'sclum: 
lord  Pigot  had  no  objec^n,  and  consideHBg 
Mn  BenfieldS  chums  as  claims  of  pmperty. 
that  a  ouestion  of  property  should  not  vt^- 
eluded  ny  <me  d^ermmation  of  the  couodl; 
though  rescinding  and  reconsidering  rcsolii' 
tlons  cf  council  in  matters  of  government^ 
ofalT  things  to  be  avoitM;  hcsaidhewwiM 
consider  this  as  not  widun  the  tide ;  l^b^ 
fore  Benfield's  chiims  were  roumisidered  with- 
out  opposition ;  but  Mr.  Brooke  did  not  tt- 

EKct  it  wotdd  have  passed  so  easily ;  and  Vr* 
rooke  came  prepared  with  a  mmute  to  sop^ 
port  and  account  for  the  reason  of  his  n^otte 
to  reconsider  Benfi^d's  claims:  and'  tbn 
minute  Mr.  Brooke  th»^t  fit  to  insert  in  the 
council.    I  shall  JHt  do  juatxct  to  il^  trftho^ 


i07T] 


nmi  otkfrsfjkr  dqming  Jjwd  P^oi. 


A.  p.  1779.: 


rMdUi^  it  intimlyf  but  I  will  t«U  j^uof  what 
-  it  consists.  >lr.  Brooke  if  pleased  to  give  two 
reuBoos  for  having  altered  his  resolutions;  one 
ISf  that  when  Benfield  nreaented  his  hill,  he 
thousbt  (and  certainly  did  not  mistake)  that 
Bea&ld  claimed  the  interposition  of  cogncil 
upon  his  pneieneesy  as  ^  matter  of  r'yht»  and 
as  a  justice  due  to  him  upon  the  claim ;  but 
aince  that,  he  had  found  tnat  he  had  mistaken 
the  matter  entirely,  and  that  Mr.  Benfield 
only  daimed  it  as  a  matter  of  &vour ;  and, 
havmg  determined  against  hnn  when  he 
claimed  it  as^  matter  of  right,  now  he  found 
that  Mr.  Benfield  claimed  it  as  a  maUer  of 
iavour.  That  is  one  reason ;  the  other  is,  he 
had  read  oyer,  since  the  last  council,  the 
Company'.s  general  letter  which  lord  rigot 
.  carried  out  with  him  to  India,  directing  the 
hpMpadiate  restitution  of  the  country  of  Tan* 
jore  to  the  rajah  of  Taiyore,  and  directing  that 
in, the  strongest  and '  most  pointed  terms  in 
the  course  of  that  letter.  I  have  before 
ataied  to  you,  they  displaced  the  former  gover* 
DOT  agpreeably  to  that  letter,  and  he  was  to 
reprimand  their  council.  Then  he  states, 
that  the  noble  lord  had  undertaken  the  busi- 
^jf§f»*  of  Tanjore,  .and  that  contrary  to  justice^ 
f  Utrri  was  this  expression  in  it ;  the  directors 

Sin  the  letter,  '*  We  suppose  that  the  na- 
by  the  plund^  of  Ta^iore(  and  by  Uie 
posaoeaion  pf  the  revenues  Qt  Tai^jore  for 
mote  than  two  years,  has  acauired  a  conside- 
jable  sum  of  money  beyoad  ail  his  expences.*' 
Xhis  latter  passa^  Brooke  quotes,  and  his 
ammeat  upon  $&  text  is  this;  Now,  says 
be.  it  is  clear  the  Company  meant  to  give  the 
paneb  the  poss^^slon  of  the  revenues  of  Tan- 
jone-^f'or  what  tenn?-*-for  more  than  two 
jreaiB:  they  have  said  in  tbeif  letter  that 
they  euppofiBd  by  the  plunder  of  Tanione,  and 
by  the  possession  of  the  revenues  for  more 
than  tw»  yaarSf  he  «»us^  have  made  a  consi*- 
derable  eum  of  money;  therefore,  says 
Brooke^  they  meant  tp  give  him  poasession 
for  more  than  two  yaars :  now  he  has  not  had 
that;  and  he  might  have  made  an  assign- 
fltentof  them»  for  a  tin^e  when  that  was  to 
end.  Mr.  Brooke  has  not  explained,  the  term 
Spf  niore  than  two  years,  might  hfive  conti- 
nued as  long  as  Mr.  Brooke  thought  fit. 
IThew  are  tjm  ostensible  i^asons ;  and  when 
I  have  stated  this  as  produced,  though  unne- 
jeeiariiy,  by  ]\(r.  Brooke  himself,  I  a&k  all  of 
¥Wf  e^mir  man  to  la^  his  hand  upon  his 
imxX  and  eay  whether  be  thinks  X  am  strain- 
iffg  th^  dut¥  of  an  advocate,  or  putting  too 
iNxiiaritabd  a  «onatr<fction  upon  it,  if  I  sa^ 
boidJir,  my  opinion  end  conjecture  is,  that  it 
me  not  thaA  rea^n,  but  Mr.  Benfieki's  argu- 
m^P^  his  ai^HAsancest  and  the  commnnica- 
^(iofiQi  iiHeffit  throiieh  Mr.  Benfield,  that 
JBuet  have  op^re4^  the  conversion  of  Mr. 
ikooke? 

Gootl9m«n»  tbi»  was  upoa  the  3d  of  June. 
^(J|KMa  the  6tb,  a  Mr.  Floyer,  another  g/  the 
,4<ifigndanti»  wived  at  Madras ;  he  waa  sent 
^Hjt  •miwtfr4)f  tl»ecQw;tcil».bMt  wiUuhe 


pa7$ 


appointment  of  chief  at  Masulapatam:  when 
he  had  arrived  at  Madras,  he  found  mattery 
in  this  situation :  as  I  have  stated  to  yoM« 
notlxing  had,  before  that,  excited  any  great 
warmtn  in  the  council.    There  had  been,an4 
I  b^  you  will  not  forget  that  there  had  been 
concomitant  with  Mr.  Benfield's  complaints^ 
complaints   from  the  nabob,    ill-humourea 
and  peevish^  against  lord  Pigot  persouallv ; 
)irhicn  onlv  served  for  another  question  to  b^ 
introduced  in  the  council,  at  the  same  tim<^ 
fienfield's  afiBurs  came  on ;  an({  when  yoi|. 
find  Benfield's  business  started,  you  will  air 
way^  find  some  complaint  of  the  nabob*| 
thrown  in  at  the  same  time.    But  Mr.  Floye^ 
arrived  upon  the  6th,  he  took  the  oaths  and 
his  seat  as  member  of  the  council.      Mr, 
Floyer,  it  seems,  with  a  ereat  deal  of  delicacy 
with  respect  to  business  done  in  his  absence^ 
wishes  not  to  vote  in  it,  and  gives  in  a  long 
minute,  stating  that  he  dechnes  to  vote  in 
such  business' of  the  council ;  Benfield*s  busi^ 
ness  is  put  off  firum  the  6th  to  the  I3tb ;  in 
the  interval  you  will  find  Mr.  Flover's  doubts 
about  voting  lessen  a  good  deal;   however 
he  opens  Uie  council  on  the  13th.  with  a 
flond  and  distinct  state  of  the  difficulties  and 
his  doubts  in  voting.    They  are  got  over,  as 
the  principal  part  of  it  turns  upon  want  of  in- 
formation, from  a  sudden  arnval  in  that  part 
of  the  country  to  which  it  relates;   a  very 
smgular  effect  is  produced,  upgn  it  notwith-* 
standing,  and  Mr.  Floyer  vote$ ;  ill  instructed 
as  be  stat^  himself,  hesitating,  and  doubting 
in  his  own  mind,  naturally,  you  would  syp* 
pose,  he  would  let  Uiat  stand  which  was  done 
m  a  former  council,  and  4:onfinn  it ;   instead 
of  that^  the  effect  of  doubt  and  uncertaintv  ii^ 
the  mind  of  Mr.  Floyer,  was,  to  incline  hino 
to  overturn  that  which  w^s  done  before,  and 
he  votes  for  rescinding  the  resolution  of  the 
29th  of  May.    Mr.  Brooke  by  that  time,  it 
seems,  was  completely  converted ;  and  Mr, 
Bjooke  and  Floyer  overturned  that  resolution 
of  the  29th  of  May,  by  a  majority  of  7  to  5. 
Having  got  this  edvantago  upon  ^he  subject 
of  Ben^ld\s  business,  the  business  was  as^ 
ruined  again.     Mr.  Mackay  gave  notice  al 
the  close  of  the  council  on  the  13tb|  that  he 
should  have  a  motion  to  make  the  next  da^;  the 
council  opened,  and  lord  Pigot,  as  in  courses 
and  in  deoencyi  Mid  as  the  order  of  businesa 
ought  to  bo  always  conducted,  he  being  pre« 
sioent,  pr^oposes  a  motion  for  the  considera* 
tion  ot  the  council ;   when  to  his  surprise,  (aa 
nothing  particularly  indecent  had  happened 
before.)  Mr.  Mackay  stops  it,  sapi&  That 
he  ban  giv^n  notice  pf  a  motion  thatlie  had 
to  make;  while  at  thfi  last  council  ne  had 
said  he  had  a  motion  to  make  at  the  nex^ 
council;  the  question  was  tben  moved,  an<^ 
by  the  number  of  7  to  5,  resolved,  That  Mf, 
Mackay  having  given  notice  of  motion,  the 
president  was  not  to  make  his  moUojii  as  pre.* 
^vA^  but  Mr.  Mackay  was  to  have  prer 
audience;  the  effect  of  Mr.  Mackay 's  motiog 
w«s  tbi»>  that  the  ffavf^Pft*^  ^  aieigwneolf 


1079]  U  GEORGE  IIL         PrwxediHgi  ^ahut  George  SinOUm        '  [  1060 


nade  by  the  nabob  were  valid.  One  would 
think  that  rather  a  hasty  concluaon  to  make 
upon  this  state  of  it,  but  however  it  was  voted 
bjr  f  to  5 ;  the  doubts  of  Mr.  Floyer  were  en- 
tirely removed,  and  he  again  finds  himself 
cleac  to  vote  these  mortgages  and  assignments 
to  be  good^  of  which  there  was  no  proof  given, 
nor  any  investigation ;  that  surely  was  suft- 
cient  to  throw  a  suspicion,  instead  bf  remov- 
ing of  doubts,  and  he  among  the  rest  votes 
the  mortgages  and  assignments  valid.  The 
next  motion  of  Mr.  Mackay,  was  to  recom- 
mend to  the  rajah,  to  restore  to  Benfield  the. 
last  y<ear*8  grain,  and  give  him  all  reasoaable 
assistance  to  recover  nis  debts;  lord  Pigot 
thought,  after  Mr.  Mackay's  motion,  whose 
claim  extended  only  to  one  motion,  that  he 
as  president  might  be  heard :  lotd  Pigot  pro- 
posed for  their  consideration,  whether  it 
would  not  be  fit  (and  stated  a  question  u(K>n 
it,)  to  write  to  the  nabob  to  give  information 
concerning  these  assignments;  and  to  call 
for  the  ^counts  and  for  those  papers  that 
shewed  his  right  to  make  the  mortgages,  and 
the  validity  of  the  mortgages  t&msdves. 
That  was  a  proposal  that  m  decency  he  had 
a  right  t6  malce;  that  was  rejected,  lord 
Pigot's  motion  was  set  aside,  and  Mr. 
Mackay's  motion  again  voted  for,  to  recom- 
mend to  the  rajah  to  restore  to  Benfield  the 
grain ;  and  his  third  motion  was,  that  it  be 
farther  recommended  to  the  rajah,  to  account 
with  Benfield  for  the  farther  share  of  the 
grain  that  had  been  sowir  in  1775,  in  those 
parts  where  he  had  the  assignments.  After 
all  these  affairs,  lord  Pigot  thought,  having 
the  opinion  pf  those  gentlemen  so  verjr  clear 
upon  a  former  occasion^  that  Benfield's  claims 
were  of  a  private  nature,  when  it  was  per- 
mitted to  him  to  make  a  motion  in  council, 
be  thotight  it  fit  to  try  what  they  would  say 
upon  that  resolution.  He  moved  the  ques- 
tion, that  the  claims  of  Benfield  were  oi  a 
private  not  of  a  public  nature.— There  was 
no  doubt  about  it. — ^Thc  question  was  moved ; 
they  gave  thek*  opioions  upon  it^  a  happy 
distinction  struck  Mackay;  I  do  him  the  jus- 
tice of  being  the  author  of  it ;  First  it  was 
adopted  in  terms  by  one  gentleman,  tiiien  a 
Bttie  more  florid  by  another:  Mr.  Mackay 
says.  The  claims  of  Benfield,  so  far  as  they 
regard  Benfield,  are  of  a  private  nature;  so 
far  as  they  regard  the  assignments  of  the  nar 
bob,  whicli  you  recollect  are  to  Benfield,  they 
{Ire  of  a  public  nature :  which  was  in  effect 
saying  this ;  the  claims  of  Benfield,  so  far  as 
the;)r  regard  Benfield,  are  of  a  private  nature; 
so  far  as  they  regard  the  claims  themselves, 
th^  are  of  a  public  nature :  that  satisfied  the 
understandings  of  the  gentlemen  present, 
who  adopted  it ;  and  thus  it  ended  upon  that 
/consultation. 

Gentlemen;  sensible  that  I  must  detain 
you  upon  points  which  require  your  utmost 
attention,  I  pass  over  many  instances  that 
occurred  in  June  after  this  day,  of  opposition 
%s>  ^ord  Pigo^  and  the  most  mdecent  aad 


I 


most  destructive  conduct  towaida  uie  gover- 
nor ;  other  resolutions  of  the  ooundl  upon 
public  matters,  which  had  pasted  and  were 
agreed  to  in  the  same  way  as  Mr.  Beofield's 
bid  been,  were  again  moved  to  be  reconr 
sidered,  and  upon  consideration,  rescinded  by 
a  m^oritv.  It  was  impossible  the  govern* 
ment  could  have  gone  on  in  that  state ;  reso- 
lutions which  ban  passed  one  day,  rescinded 
the  next ;  he  perceived  it  was  mm  some  in* 
fiuence  that  was  very  foreign  to  the  proceed- 
ings  of  the  council,  which  lord  Pigot  thought 
fit  to  direct  for  enforcing  the  oraers  of  the 
Company ;  but  whatever  the  nature  of  them 
were,  tliose  resolutions  were  passed  williout 
diffiodty^  or  rescinded  a  day  or  two  after- 
wards wrthout  shame  or  remorse.  I  fian 
over  them,  because  I  want'to  come  mora  im- 
mediately to  that  which  is  the  point  of  this 
business,  upon  which  it  hinges ;  you  will  oib* 
serve,  so  far  as  restoring  the  rajah,  and  settii^ 
him  up  in  an  empty  tnrone  m  Tanjore,  no 
opposition  was  given ;  it  was  agr^ood  to ;  but 
when  the  effectual  restoration  of  the  revenoea 
of  the  country  was  hinted  at,  it  was  an- 
nounced by  Mackay  at  ^  consultations,  there 
would  be  an  opposition.  He  cones  Ibnvard 
in  favour  of  Benfield's  claims ;  those  claims 
make  themselves  strong  by  degrees:  tber 
had  gone  no  fiuther  than  this,  to  recommend 
to  the  rajah  to  assist  Benfield;  and  all  tixy 
had  done  at  their  meeting  on  the  14th  iriT 
June  remained  ineffsctual,  unless  there  was 
a  person  at  Tanjore  who  would  take  care  to 
give  efiect  to  it.  You  see  obviously,  wlnA 
was  the  effect  of  these  representations;  tliey 
were  so  ill  grounded,  there  would  have  been 
other  representations  agunst  them  upon  the 
part  of  the  rajah ;  th^  must  have  heard  the 
rajah ;  time  would  have  been  gained,  voA  an 
opportunity  given,  in  the  mean  time,  for  a 
communication  with  the  government  at 
home ;  and  perhaps  a  middle  measure  would 
have  been  taken.  It  became  therefore^  ne- 
cessary, to  accompUsh  their  purpose,  that  there 
should  be  a  person  upon  the  spot  at  Tanfore, 
who  would  ffive  to  that  recommendation  the 
effect  intended,  and  in  short  make  it  ;csm- 
ptilsory  and  carry  it  into  exeaition:  Ar 
that  purpose,  at  the  close  of  the  month  of 
June,  a  letter  was  sent  to  the  council,  written 
by  colonel  Stuart,  second  in  command  of 
thff  forces,  to  sir  Robert  Fletcher  the  com* 
mander  in  chief,  asserting  it  to*  be  the  rigfit 
of  the  second  in  command,  to  have  the  oooh 
noand  of  the  body  of  forces  employed  at  Tu»- 
jore,as  being  the  most  impoitant  command; 
— I  should  state  to  you  here,  that  beioR 
this,  before  the  importance  of  BenfieM 
claims  was  understood,  colonel  Stuart,  as 
second  in-  command,  had  claunedy  and  had 
been  appointed  to  the  command  of  the  Com- 
pany's forces  stationed  at  Vellore ;  which,  as 
the  most  important  station  of  a  miUtMyfixo^ 
upon  the  coast  of  Coromandel,  there  was  a 
much  greater  force  there,  than  at  Tanjote: 
the  ofacer  that  command^  af  Tnvoi^  wasf 


lOBl] 


and  others,  for  depoung  Lori  Pigol. 


A.  D.  17m 


{lost 


colonel  Harper,  an  ofBcer,  in  the  whole  of 
this  business,  of  conduct  unexceptionable, 
and  behaviour  perfectly  blameless ;  his  con- 
duct was  gentle  and  moderate;  he  eave  no 
cause  of  complaint  to  an^  nabob ;  and  great 
satis^ction  to  the  rajah.  Colonel  Stuart's 
letter  was  jnresented  to  the  council  in  the 
latter  end  or  the  month  of  June :  it  only  lay 
upon  the  table,  no  motion  was  made  upon  it, 
nothing  offered,  nothing  done.^  Upon  the 
eighth  of  Jul^,  lord  Pi^t  made  a  proposal 
to  the  council,  that  they  shodld  appomt  a 
chief  and  council  at  Tanjore,  to  carry  on  the 
commercial  business  of  the  Company  in  that 
country;  this  proposal  underwent  a  good  deal 
of  discussion,  and  was  over-ruled ;  afwr  whic^, 
lord  Pigot  said,  as  tbey  were  of  opinion  that 
^tablishment  was  not  proper  at  'Panjore,  he 
thought  it  proper  that  tliere  should  he  a  resi- 
dent at  Tanjore ; — ^to  that  tliere  was  no  objec- 
tion, and  myjovd  Pigot,  upon  the  spot,  im-, 
noediately  proposed  Mr.  Eussel  to  be  the  resi- 
dent there; — that  proposition,  upon  lord 
PigoVs  part,  came  upon  a  sudden ;  they  w%re 
not  prepared  upon  it,  and  not  quite  settled 
'who  was  to  go  there;  the  consequence  of 
which  was,  lord  Pigot  carried  that  question, 
Mr.  Stratton  voting*  nir.  Russel  to  go  resident 
to  Tanjore.  That  ^as  carried  by  a  majority 
tqpon  the  8th ;  no  sooner  was  the  council 
Irroke  up,  than  they  were  aware  of  the  mis- 

'  take  thev  had  fallen  into;  but  afterwards, 
ibey  had  better  directions,  and  more  able 
advice  interfered;  and  the  conseqiience  of 
aen^ng  Mr.  Russel  to  Tanjore  was  imme- 
diately seen  into ;  and  the  next  da^,  the  9th 
of  July,  at  a  meeting  of  the  council,  colonel 
Stuart's  letter  was  called  for,  which  had  been 
presentecT  the  latter  end  of  June,  in  which 
€olonel  8tuart  proposed  to  be  sent  to  com- 
mand the  militaiy  force  of  the  Company  ^ 

'  Tanjore.  What  reason  was  there  for  it  ? 
Why  remove  colonel  Harper  ?-^The  nabob 
had  no  objection  to  him. — The  rajah  was 
^rticnlaT]^  desirous  he  should  continue; 
though  his  character  was  blameless,  why 
scand  for  Stoart  from  Vellare  his  proper 
station  f  You  will  find  upon  the  minutes  no 
reasoning  i]ipon  it,  but  the  only  thing  like  an 
answer  which  is  given,  is,  he  applied  to  sir 
R.  Fletcher,  who  leccMnmends  it  to  the 
council;  he  ir  desirous  they  should  pay  a 
deference  to  the  recommendation  of  the  com- 
snaader  in  chief;  the  vote  was  carried,  and 
colonel  Stuart  appointed  to  command  at 
^Tanjore.  After  tnis,  there  is  some  little 
peace,  the  council  are  not  called  fer  some 
time;  till  towards  the  end  of  July,  but  during 
the  interval  you  will  find  the  period  not  un- 
occupied ;  for,  if  I  am  not  misled  by  my  in- 
structions, you  will  find  meetings  and  consul- 
tations frequent  with  Benfield,-  with  the 
nabob,  Brooke,  Floyer,  Mackay,  Stratton, 
colonel  Stuart,  and  dir  R.  Fletcher,  private 
and  unknown  to  the  rest  of  the  council,  and 
unsuspected  by  lord  Pigot,  who  suffered  a 
^reat  deal  ia  this  foiisinesi  fitnn  bia  frank, 


^Idier-Iike,  openness  of  temper,  which  did  not 
lead  him  to  think  there  were  designs  plotthtg 
agaipat  him. — Tlie  next  thinff-material  is  the 
"ddth  of  July ;  Mr.  Russel,  who  was  appointed 
to  be  resident  at  Taniore,  had  been  named, 
sooh  after  his  arrival  in  India,  with  a  com- 
mittee, called  a  Comnuttee  of  Circuit.  It  is 
necessary  to  expbiin  to  you,  the  Companv  in 
their  instructions  lord  Pigot  carried,  had  di» 
rected  there  should  be  a  committee  of  th^r 
servants,  ynt  to  examine  into  the  state  of 
the  Jaghire  Lands  and  Northern  Circars ;  a 
joum^  of  some  extent,  which  would  take 
some  time ;  but  it  was  expressly  guarded  in 
the  instructions,  that  committee  should  not 
set  out,  nor  that  business  be  undertidcen,  till 
the  ai&ir  of  Tanjore  be  completely  settled. 
Mark  that>— the  committee  wa^  nottosertout, 
nor  that  business  be  undertaken,  till  the 
affair  of  Tanjore  was  completely  settled.— 
Mr.  Russel  had  been  appointed  one  of  the 
committee^  but  there  was  nothing  more  in 
that,  than  if  any  other  person  had  been  ap- 
pointed ;  besides  Mr.  Russel,  there  were  upon 
that  coQtimittee  other  members  of  the  council, 
Mr.  Dalrymple,  Mr*  Mackay,  and  a  Mr. 
Dawson,  who  had  set  off  for  ^rope,  in  whose 
place  Mr.  Jourdan,  anothiw  member  of  the 
council,  was  proposed.  Upon  the  8th  of 
July,  Mr.  Russel  was  appointed  resident  at 
Tanjore;  and,  to  counteract  the  appointment 
of  Mr.  Russel,  on  the  9th  of  July,  Mr. 
Stuart's  letter  was  taken  into  consideration, 
and  be  was  voted  to  command  at  Tai\jore; 
upon  the  86th  of  July,  it  was  moved,  that  the 
committee  of  circuit  should  set  out  upon 
their  business  inunediatelv  ;-^it  was  opposed, 
upon  the  plainest  of  all  grounds^  that  the 
Company's  order  directed,  that  first  the  busi- 
ness of  Tanjore  should  be  settled ;  and  they 
objected  tluit  the  time  of  year  was  improper 
for  it  to  be  settled,  tl^ey  could  not  be  prepared  '^ 
for  it ;  it  required  more  time ;  and  Mr.  Russel 
was  appointed  to  another  more  nressing  busi- 
ness, and  directly  within  the  letter  of  the 
Compan^s  orders:  however,  the  resolution 
was  carried,  that  the  cominittee  of  council 
should  set  out  forthwith;  the  consequence  of 
which  was,  Mr.  Russel  ^v^as  to  go,  Bfr.  Jourdan 
was  allowed  to  decltne  accepting  the  office, 
Mr.  Mackav  is  allowed  to  excuse  himself  from ' 
goine,  so  that  the  presang  orders  to  set  off 
for  the  circuit  was  mere  pretence,  there  can 
be  no  doubt. — Lord  Pigot  moved  at  the  said 
council,  a  very  wise  and  fiur  resolution, — for 
besides  the  gentlemen  present  at  Madras, 
there  were  members  of  the  council  at  the  dis- 
tant settlenients,  who  continued  there  and 
had  no  part  in  Uie  disputes  then  agitated  in 
the  council  at  Madras,  — ^lord  Pigot  therefoi%, 
moved,  that  the  members  of  the  council  at 
the  distant  settlements  might  be  called  up  to 
attend  the  board ;  this  would  not  at  all  have 
answered  the  purpose  of  the  gentlemen ;  they 
did  not  wish  to  hazard  the  sure  majority  they 
had  got,  and  afterwards  kept  by  the  assistanoe 
of  ttra«e  two  which  I  mentioned  before;  thiy 


19  6E0AGE  in.         Ptomdittgt  •gunU  GeorgB  StnUkm        [IQU 


dki  iMt  ctmse  to  ad4  to  Mr.  Benfidd't  fiiendi 
koil  copoectioiis,  any  more  than  wa»  neoe»- 
aaiy  to  carry  Um  busioeis  through; — ^lord 

a^'a  propofiition  was  therefore  o^ativedt 
[  io  the  latter  eod  d  July^^upon  the 
gQthy^Mr.  Mackay  makes  ao  e&cuse  lor  not 
Koios  the  circuit;  then  instructions  are  |irei- 
fum  ibr  t:okMiel  Stuart,  who  had  notice 
Ijiven  him  to  set  out  forTanjore.  From  this 
time,  6om  the  3nd  of  Ansist,  to  the  19th» 
lord  Piget  called  nocoMncii;  but  in  that  in- 
terval you  will  find  frequent  meetingSy  held 
by  Benneld  with  the  gentlemen  who  are  the 
defieodants ;  and  sometimes  with  the  nabob ; 
there  was  frequent  intercourse  between  them, 
so  that,  during  that  time,  you  will  find  no 
nason  to  doubt  the  conspiracy  was  formed, 
to  oanry  at  all  events  the  point  of  security 
the  revenues  of  Tanjore,atthehaBirdofovei^ 
turning  the  government^  and  with  adetermina- 
tk>n  to  stick  at  no  measures  to  accomplish  it. 
Lord  Pigot  called  the  next  council  upon  the 
19th,  aM  the  minutes  of  that  council  must 
be  particularly  readw-^Lord  Pigot  turned  in 
his  mind  the  state  of  the  disoraers  they  had 
l^otinto;  seeing  the  difficulties  helaboiiM 
under  in  the  eiecution  of  the  Company's 
orderS;  which  it  was  his  duty  to  carry  into 
effect,  he  stated  expressly  his  reasons,  and 
jpropcMd  Mr.  Rusad  micht  be  sent  to  Tai\iore, 
^  it  were  but  for  a  few  days ;  the  importance 
of  sendios  Mr.  Russel  to  Tanjore  was  ex- 
tvemely  obvious  and  plain;  it  was  of  im- 
portenoe  U>  the  council  likewise  to  send  a 
parion  to  T|u:^re,  apers<Mi  who  was  designed 
to  put  into  esacution  such  iMnders  %8  the 
council  had  voted  the  14th  of  June;  there  was 
ao  doubt,  with  the  command  of  the  forces  in 
his  haods»  that  the  n^fah  being  left  to  bim- 
aelf  SMist  sink  under  it,-— whatever  oljections 
he  had  in  his  mind  muBt  have  given  way^ — 
without  remonstOAc^  enquiry,  examination, 
•or  the  production  ot  those  iccounts  whkfa 
might  have  &lsified  Benfield's  claims :  and 
Benficld  must  have  been  content  if  he  had 
£Nmd  the  r^ah  was  supported  by  tiiose  who 
were  determined  to  cany  Ihe  ordos  of  the 
directors  into  exeoution.  If  a  person  was 
aent  who  was  in  confidence  with  the  governor, 
undoubtedly  the  effect  would  have  been,  that 
the  enquiiy  that  had  been  negatived  in  the 
ix>iincil  must  have  been  forced  upon  the 
council,  in  a  shape  so  clear  and  distinct,  that 
Ihey  could  not  for  shame  and  xemorse  ;-*aiid 
in  the  shape  which  must  have  struck  upon 
Iheir  minds,  at  least,  what  their  conduct  had 
been;--they  could  not  hesitate  a  moment  to 
§p  into  that  enquiiy.  However,  this  propooi- 
tion  of  k»rd  Pigot,  that  he  might  be  aentlMr  a 
U»  days  onl^,  was  of  course  negatrved;  upon 
which  occaaun,  Mr.  Fk»yer  ti3ces  the  lead, 
0od  he  moves  for  colonel  Stuart's  instnH>- 
tions>  to  he  taken  into  consideration ;  lord 
Pisot  perceivin|  then  the  detcnuination  that 
colonel  Sluart  should  go,  and  that  no  person 


pwposal 

their  busttMess^'  tor  you  wui  nno  ^aw*^** 
«pon  the  part  of  himself  for  executing  the  ccnfidcnt  I  al^l  be  Me  to  prove  to  yool(f 
#iders  of  the  dirocton^  should  «o  to  TaqK»w ;  daaionslfatiM),  Ihoti^ 


ha  stated  to  them,  what  he  undentsod  to  be 
the  powers  of  the  president;  he  st^sd  it  Is 
them,  as  appears  upon  the  minutes,  that  bs 
conceived  himself,  as  president,  not  to  )m% 
a  power  to  act  i^gsinst  a  nujority,  for  to  it 
has  been  folsely  represented ;  but  that,  ai 
president,  he  wasaninteoalpartof  thsgo.' 
vemment:  that  as  presioent,  he  wss  pos. 
sessed  of  that  power,  without  which  a  nuyohtj 
could  not  act;  that  h^,  lord  Pigot,  with* 
holding  his  concurrence,  the  act  done  witiioat 
his  concurrence,  would  be  an  actof  am^jori^ 
of  tbie  counciUors,  but  not  an  act  of  tint  gsi 
veipmeot  which  consisted  of  the  presidsBt 
and  counciL  lord  Pmt  stated  tlttt  to  b« 
the  power  and  office  oftha  president ;  sod  ia 
statiQg  it  calmly  and  dehberately.  he  ssid  ts 
them,  '  Gentleman,  consider  what  yoa  ut 
about;  I  will  not  sign  the  instructioos  of 
colonel  Stuart;  and  the  person  who  is  ti 
act  under  these  instructions  must  act  uodtr 
his  peril.  I  conceive  they -will  be  irregular 
instructions  without  your  president,  aad  will 
not  justily  the  act  you  are  about,  pMHOg 
such  acts  by  force  of  a  majority,  which  will  bt 
productive  of  farther  coufiisioo.  If  I  with* 
nold  my  jooncurrence.  bv  adjouraioi  tin 
council,  there  is  an  end  of  the  f^aaaoT;  sa4 
here  wUl  be  private  violence  and  wrong  doos/ 
Lord  Pigot  stating  these  points,  thsre  m 
debates  upon  them,  and  they  arpis  tlw 
matter  extremely  iU.  The  effect  of  it  wsi  aa 
adjournment.  Upon  the  SOtb,  the  qaestioa 
was  resumed  agpun,  and  they  enter  iats 
debate  upon  tl^  president's  power;  then 
wasaar^deal  of  aoisquoting;  thenitwai 
movecT  that  Mr.  Dairvmple  ttid  theyoouU 
act  without  the  president,  Mr.  Dsuynph 
says,  <<  they  are  not  my  words ;"  and  them  «■! 
a  disiHite  upon  the  import  of  what  Mr.  Dil> 
evmple  said.  AU  that  alteraation  coDaunu^ 
the  husiness  of  the  90th;  and  when  tbty 
come  again  on  the  93od,  lord  Pigot  opened 
the  moating  with  a  proposal  to  theiD»  «^ 
in  my  apprehension,  takes  away  ereo  tlie 
smallest  pretence  for  excuse  that  there  oM 
have  bean  for  any  violoioe,  or  for  any  of  ue 
subsequent  violences  wlueh  wevs  oomoiittio; 
—this  was  a  wise  and  salutary  propoasl  m 
lord  P^'s,  stutii^  th^  ImuI  got  intocoa- 
siderabte  confusion  ;'they  deniedbis  chinjj[ 
power;  then  they  got  into  a  Question  ww| 
was  v<»v  much  permyal;  he  therefors  msUi 
them  this  proposition ;  as  to  all  the  ail- 
ments upon  my  power,  which  I  certainl/  iw 
not  exercise  without  the  greatest  neosanty  w 

it ;  as  to  the  immediate  obieclB  of  diipai^ 
let  the  aaatler  tort  till  there  fisn  be  lefenott 

to,  and  the  dbeaaure  of  the  dinactors  be  law 
u^  it;  aad  lot  us  prooeed  in  other  ntft^ 
with  unaniaii^  aad  order.  Hemadesfi^- 
poKil  to  waive  the  decision  upon  the  povlTt 
which  he  as  pit«dei>t  claimed  to  faave^-tm^ 


tOS9] 


and  stkerSffirskpoth^  Lmd  Plgot. 


A,  !)•  lY795i 


[1080 


must  have  been  tek^n  lo  cany,  at  all  events^ 
and  at  the  risk  of  every  videnee,  into  execu* 
tion,  the  getting  poesessicn  of  the  revenues  of 
Tanjore;  that  was  the  serious  ftmdamental 
object  they  had  pledged  themselveB  to  per- 
forin:   they   had   engaged-  thelaselvea  by 
bcHide,  stronger  than  iron^--'in  golden  bonds, 
•^to  accorophsh  that  object;  uid  that  they 
determined  to  pufsue  at  the  ri^  of  ail  that 
niight  happen.— Thu9 a  civil  bfoil  %as  started 
in   the  settlement.— They,   upon   all   this, 
vnth   dogged  and  obstinate   silence   upon 
the   representing  of  lord  Pignt,   persevere 
in  carryiiifr  into  execntioil   the   orders  of 
colonel  Ssnart;    and  said  it  shocdd  be  a 
mutative  of  their  own ;   lord  Pigot  stops  it, 
and  charges  Stratum  and  Brooke  with  acting 
illegally  m  this  matter;  and  moves  to  sus- 
pend them,  which  put  the  boh  upon  them 
aad  prevented  their  voting :  this  measure  of 
lord  Pi^t  came  upon  ^em  by  sorprise ;  they 
vrere  disconcerted  to  a  degree ;  as  the  votes 
tii^i  stood  they  were  a  majority  by  lord 
Pigot's  casting  vote ;  timt  put  an  end  to  the 
proceedings  of  the  99d  :  the  next  day,  v^ich 
was  the  fl3d,  they  assembled  together  by 
themselves;   lord  Figot,  however,  gave  out 
summonses  for  the  council,  in  which  he  sum- 
moned all  the  members,  except  Stratton  and 
Brooke.    Now  let  me  state  to  you,  what,  if 
thcr^  had  meant  any  other  than  confusion  and 
violenoe,  and  at  all  events  to  ge^  rid  of  lord 
Tigokf — whose  iiAexible  obstinacy  to  pursue 
the  orders  of  the  Company  ttwy  knew  would 
Jbf  an  eteraa)  obMacle  in  their  way, — ^if  they 
had  meant  otherwise,  whsit  oti^t  they  have 
^mie  ?  Gentlemen,  ymi  will  bear  this  a  little 
m  mind;  upon  the  9fd,  a^  the  Council  was 
then  composed,  by  removing  Stmtton  and 
Brooke,  tbere  was  lord  Pigot,  and  three  who 
aidhered  to  Mm,  Eussei,    t>alrymp)e,  and 
Slone,  that  made  in  the  whole  four;  there 
were  four  upon  the  other  side,  Floyer;  Palmer, 
leurdMi,  and  Mackay ;  there  were  then  four 
and  four  present  at  that  council ;  there  was, 
hendes  that,  sir  H.  Fletcher  who  was  ill,  but 
he  h«l  attended  aH  their  private  consuha- 
imiSj  therefore  couM  have  come  to  the  coon- 
efl ;  if  they  had  meant  fiuriy  and  honesty 
6fdy  lo  rescind  what  had  been  done,  thev 
cetirse  was  obvious,  there  were  as  matters 
then  stood  5  to  4 ;  they  were  all  summoned 
So  the  council;  they  had  nothing  to  have 
#wie  hut  to  have  attended  at  the  council  and 
stated  then*  complMBts  against  the  violence 
which  they  said  lord  Pigot  had  committed 
fhe  day  before ;   to  have  stated  them  i^n 
the  i^ihuites,  and  have'  moved  such  resolu- 
Ikms  as  Ihey  Ihousht  £t;   but  upon  what 
lord  Pigot  himself  laid  down,  he  had  not 
^Wen  them,  the  least  reason  to  suppose,  or 
ttpprehend,  he  asserted  power  to  do  any  thing 
whatsoever  a^asnA  the  authority  of  the  coun- 
dl ;  er  iSsat  his  power  went  any  farther  tiian 
to  edfoom,  and  stop  the  proceedings  of  the 
.  council.    It  was  a  'stop  upon  liiem,  and  irom 
loi4  Figot  they  had  not  the  ictstteason  upon 


earth tospprehted  any  forther  AsturiNAoe to 
the  peace  of  the  settlement.— But  that  is  ftoc 
the  whole;  upon  the  ^iSd,  there  amved  in 
Mates  a  Mr.  Lathom,  who  had  attended  no 
council,  whose  vote  was* unknown,  who  came 
for  the  first  time  to  the  counetl  in  obedieneo 
to  a  proper  notice  to  attend  the  couneil  imoii 
the  SSd,  who  upon  the  tsd,  voted  with  kml 
Pieot.  He  was  only  one,  wad  his  oppositien 
to  lord  Pigot  could  be  nothing;  thmfore  he 
acquiescea  and  assented  to  what  was  done* 
upon  the  SSd,  they  couk)  not  tell  how  his  vole 
would  be ;  but  Mr.  Lathom  made  «x,  when 
added  to  the  five»  If  the  opinion  of  those 
six  had  bea[i  for  lord  Pigot,  he  wouki  only 
have  made  apart  of  them  t  with  the  numbers 
standing  as  tney  did,  they  dki  not  attend  tfte 
council,  they  did  not  obey  the  summoas  «f 
lord  Pi^. — But  they  dkl  what  ?  met  them- 
selves m  private ;  and  s«it  a  protest  to  lord 
Pigot  ana  the  council  who  were  met,  by  s 
notary,  sisned  by  them  all,  comBhdfimg  off 
this  act  oT  suspending  Brooke  ana  Stratton  ; 
and  they  issue  an  order  to  cofonel  StuarU 
which  is  dated  at  3  in  the  a^noon  (for  I 
state  the  dates  as  ^y  themselves  have  re* 
presented  them) ;  that  is  an  order  of  a  very 
singular  nature,  and  must  be  read  to  ^ou ;  I 
only  state  the  purport  of  it ;  in  short  it  dele- 

gates  all  power  and  authority  to  colonel 
tuart,  ana  jiarticularly  directs  lum,  in  case 
he  should  think  it  necessary,  to  arrest  tha 
person  of  lord  Pigot—- This  is  dated  at  9  in 
Iht  afternoon;  when  it  was  delivered  to  him 
I  do  not  know ;  but  this  I  know,  it  cape  to 
colonel  Stuart  not  tmexpected;  pad  that 
order  to  arrest  lord  Pigot,  and  the  measure  to 
take  possession  of  lord  Figot's  person  by 
force,  was  not  the  birth  of  that  afternoon,  nor 
was  it  the  birth  of  the  .23d,  nor  was  it  con-^ 
oeived,  I  believe,  in  consequence  tyf  any  tluns 
that  happened  upon  the  S9d;  for  you  win 
find  in  evidence,  that  Mr.  Benfield,'-^  nam^ 
never  to  be  fon^gutten  in  this  business, — had 
communications,  as  I  have  staled  to  you. 
with  the  members  of  the  council,  with  colonel 
Stuart,  and  with  the  nabob ;  but  many  dtcyi 
before  the  52d,  a  trusty  servant  of  Mr.  Boh 
field's,  was  sent  with  Erections  to  put  him- 
self under  colonel  Stuart's  orders,  to  be  pro- 
vided with  a  chaise  and  horses,  and  to  tako 
care  tohave  them  always  inreadiness to  receivo 
such  orders  as  he  shomd  give  Mm.  Yon  ob- 
serve the  orders  bear  date  at  3  in  the  aflor- 
noon;  upon  that  23d,  colonel  Stuart  comes 
forwards  in  this  business ;  upon  the  l!3d,  b^ 
tween  1 1  and  IS  in  the  forenoon,  that  servaal 
t^ras  sent  back  again  to  colonel  Stuart ;  there 
he  receives  his  final  orders  from  colonel  Sti^ari 
to  have  the  chabe  and  horses  posted  at  o 
partictdar  place.— »Now,  I  say.  antecedent  to 
the  orders  of  the  93d  (and  I  am  intitled  to 
conclude  antecedent  to  all  that  happened 
upon  the  9%d),  the  determination  was  taken, 
and  the  conspiracy  formed,  to  seiie  the  per* 
son  of  lord  Pigot,  rf  by  other  means  it  was 
not  possible,  (and  I  believe*  by  no  o^^  means 


10B7J 


19GEOBGEIIL        Fivemiu^*  t^pmut  George  SinUm       [\m 


flcipcct  Id  llie  reventies  of  Taojorea  so  it 
uswd  upon  th9  33d.  Up<»i  the  Mtb,  lord 
Pfgoty  fluspectbiff  no  iotentioiK  of  vioksce, 
iiaviDg  fMMed  thst  day  in  giving  dbnection8 
for  the  govennmity  lor  the  greater  port  of  it 
in  ooinpaoj  with  colonel  Stuart,  going  in  the 
evening  to  mp  itt*the  garden-house,  and  co- 
lonel Stuart  with  hini,^he  was  arrested^  put 
into  a  post  cbaise,  which  was  the  post  chaise 
of  Benfield  driven  by  the  postillion,  who  re- 
cdved  directions  from  colonel  Stuart. — He 
was  taken  prisoner  by  colonel  Eidingtonn  with 
a  jarty  of  seapoy  troops,  and  put  into  custody 
ot  nuyor  Home,  at  the  Mount  These  aie 
the  ^en«al  circumstances  of  this  story ;  the 
portKulaiB  of  the  detail,  if  I  were  to  go  into 
It,  woul^  I  am  persuaded,  shock  your  nature : 
I  win  not  go  into  it,  but  I  will  roul  to  yw  as 
the  strongest  and  best  evidence  I  can  give  to 
you,  from  the  account  these  defendants  thcm- 
aelves  have  put  their  own  name  to,  and  stamp- 
ed with  their  own  mark,  and  transmitted  to 
England,  of  that  transaction.  I  desire  no 
other  method  oi  exdtins  your  horror  and  de- 
testation of  it  than  reamng  the  account  they 
give  in  cold  blood  in  attempting  to  palliate 
It.  Thus  lord  Pigot  is  lodged  in  the  custody 
of  m«or  Home  prisoner ;  there  he  was  ar- 
tetltedf  if  arrest  can  be  applied  to  it :  now 
mark  the  tequeV—this  is  upon  the  24tb, — 
colonel  Stuart  justifies  the  orders,  and  says 
they  were  the  orders  of  an  officer,  who  was 
the  proper  military  officer  to  major  Home, 
and  directing  his  prisoner  should  be  guarded, 
and  be  always  in  ueht  of  an  officer.— Ap- 
posing all  the  other  things  right,  this  was  not 
to  be  round  fault  with;  hut  there  is  an  order 
i>f  the  next  day,  for  which  I  am  happy,  from 
the  regud  I  have  borne  him,  that  colonel 
Stuart's  name  u  not  to  it,  but  only  Stratton, 
sir  R.  Fletcher,  Brooke,  Floyer,  Mackay,  Pal- 
mer,  and  Jourdao. 

That  order  is  to  major  Home,  which  I 
must  read ; 

**  Sir;  llir.  Claud  Russel  having  last  night 
^  made  attempts  to  get  the  main  guard  under 
^  arms,  and  as  he  and  his  assodates  may  en- 
^  dcavour  to  send  letters  to  pm  garrisons ; 
**  we  request  you  would  endeavour  to  prevent 
^  their  conveying  papers  to  lord  Pigpt's  hand, 
^.to  be  signed  by  Imn;  or  their  holding  cor- 
^  respondence  with  him,  whilst  he  is  under 
^  your  charge,  unless  in  your  presence,'' 

This  is  so  far  matter  of  business;  now 
comes  a  remarkable  passage ;  ^  As  your  last 
^  raourct  in  any  attempt  to  rescue  lord  Pigot, 
'^  kis  life  mutt  answer  for  it,  and  this  you  are 
^  to  signify  to  him.  Postscript,  The  nabob  has 
^  been  applied  to,  for  a  party  of  horse  to  be 
**  put  under  your  command,  and  they  are  for 
**  H^  purpose  of  conveying  quick  intelligence 
^  to  us,  and  for  such  other  purposes  as  yoli 
^  shall  see  necessary."  This  order  is  dated 
the  S5th,  and  sent  to  major  Home.  Gentle- 
men, I  am  sure  n^ou  anticipate  me  in  your 
obawvatioBS  upon  itr^U  we  turn  tQ  history, 


inpUncr 
tenns ;  if  you  go  even  to  frble,  witttea  b; 
those  best  armiaintfd  with  the  turn  ef  tbe 
human  heart,  not  what  is  pot  in  the  omithi 
of  the  wont  of  characters,  the  &ectk)os  ne 
in  terns  scarcely  so  plain  as  this.---ShBlBM8r, 
that  master  of  human  nature,  in  bis  RiJisrd 
the  third,  and  Madieth,wben  hemtimttes 
the  purpose  of  flBUider,  it  is  not  iatemn  » 
plain :— «« Why,  Buckingham,  I  would  be 
king;^--That  is  aU  thehint  tM he wiabes 
his  two  nephews  to  die.  These  oidersne^ 
^  If  any  attemptis  made  to  rescue  kid  Pi^ 
his  life  must  answer  for  it.''  As  to  the  Mrt- 
cript,  **•  The  nabob  has  been  amilied  to  iw  s 
par^  of  horse,  for  the  sake  of  quick  intelli- 
genoe,"  that  is  ridicnlaus  :~that  was  not  the 
case: — There  is  another  hint  given— ^  or  for 
such  other  purpose  as  you  shall  see  neces* 
sary;"  that  was,  for  such  a  purpose  ssEh> 
ropean  troops  would  not  execute.  Gentle- 
men, they  speak  of  mm  a^temft  to  rescue;— if 
any  attempt  to  rescue  lord  Pigot,  bis  life  is 
to  answer  for  it. — His  life !  Thoe  are  but  too 
many  instances  where,  under  the  notioD  of 
preventing  a  rescue,  unfortunate  rulers  hsfs 
been  imprisoned  by  their  enemies,  and  have 
fallen  sacrifices  by  Uttle  broils  baving  beoi 
excited  for  the  purpose. 

Strange  ideas  of  danger,  upon  the  SH 
strike  the  imaginations  Si  these  genUemeo; 
and  in  consequence  of  it,  they  determine  tfait 
lord  Pigot  should  remove  to  a  much  grester 
distance  than  the  Mount,  and  be  put  uoder^ 
very  different  custody  from  miyor  Home'ir 
accordingly,  they  determine  he  was  to  be  re- 
moved^ under  the  care  of  colonel  £idiiigtou% 
the  officer  that  first  sdaed  him,  to  a  very  co&- 
siderable  distance : — I  i^  not  sure  whether 
it  was  lord  PigoVs  suspicion,  or  that  it  was 
their  intention  to  carry  him  to  a  jAaw  n 
small  circumference,  to  a  fortress  called  Chis- 
gleput,  at  about  the  distance  of  36  miles  fnm 
the  place  where  he  was;  for  that  punnt^ 
ujpon  the  87th  thev  address  a  letto:  to  tbM 
Home,  in  which  they  say  **  We  have  this  day 
intercepted  certain  letters  which  give  us  some 
grounds  to  think  there  is  an  intention  to  tun* 
per  with  the  soldiers  of  this  garrison,  and  sin 
those  of  your  corps,  in  favour  of  lo«d  P^; 
this  obli^  us  to  come  to  a  resolution  ofrs* 
moving  his  lordship  without  delay  to  a  pha 
of  more  safety.  We  have  for  tms  purpose 
employed  colonel  Stuart  to  take  the  metaiRi 
he  thinks  proper  for  conveving  lord  Pigo^  ^ 
safety  to  toe  place  of  his  destination.^l^ 
adjutant  gjeneral  will  be  employed  to  reoa^ 
his  lordship  from  you  this  night,  so  soon  ssit 
can  be  done,  without  giving  unnecessary  alsnft 
to  lord  Pigot's  fiunilv. 

"  Postscript.  We  give  you  this  esny 
notice  to  prepare  for  what  is  to  bapp^ 
this  night;  but  you  are  not  to  divul^  i| 

to  any  one/' ^What  happened  that  aightl 

^--Colonel  Eidinfftoun  in  Benfield's  chaise-p 
(songie  of  the  nwob's  horse  upon  the  nm 
— makea  his  appeaiaoce  betwMi  ten  w 


and  oiherSf  for  deposing  Lord  PigoU  A.  D.  1779.  [1090 

*  _         .       •  • 

jpresent  defendants  upon  ^.cb^rgie  brought 
against  them,  after  the  death,  of  lord  Pigot, 


1089] 

ele\'en  at  night  at  the  Mount;  they  apply 
to  major  Home,  and  acquaint  him  they 
come  to  take  his  prisoner  lord  Pigot,  and 
desired  he  might  be  delivered  to  him.  Lord 
PigoL  very  properly,  (aware  of  the  danger  of 
it,  ana  as  he  naa  known  major  Home,  and  be- 
lieved him  to  be  what  the  sequel  proved, 
though  employed  in  such  a  business,  a  man  of 
honour  ana  an  honest  man^  addressed  him- 
self to  Home,  and  clumed  ofHome  in  a  most 
feeling  msmner  protection;  as  he  thought 
bimself  iniltled  to  it,  as  a  man,  and  an  officer, 
from  a  person  he  long  had  a  regard  for.  The 
orderly  men  were  drawn  out  to  receive  colonel 
£idingU)un  and  his  part^ ;  lord  Pigot,  after 
addressing  himself  to  major  Home  and  claim- 
ing his  protection,  addressed  himself  to  the 
men,  and  told  them  with  many  of  them  he 
had  foi^ht  at  the  siege  of  Madras ;  they  were 
old  soloiets  and  witnesses  of  the  dangers  he 
^lad  gone  through  with  them,  and  oegged 
th^  would  not  permit  him  to  be  delivereoup 
to  Bidingtouxi,  whom  he  looked  upon  as  an  as- 
sassin; he  besged  they  would  protect  his  life; 
that  they  would  pot  simer  their  former  fellow^ 
soldier,  an  Englishman^  to  be  taken  from 
their  euard  where  he  was  safe;  and  to  be 
fetched  away  by  those  with  whom  he  thought 
himself  not  safe.  The  effect  of  this  address 
upon  the  part  of  lord  Pigot^  was  this,  the 
honest  men  were  moved  with  indignation. 
Colonel  Eidingtoun  called  out  to  the  soldiers, 
«  No  doubt  you  will  qhey  your  orders.'  There 
ivas  a  profound  silence.;  no  man  advanced  to 
obey  them :  he  repeated  his  exhortation  again, 
-with  threats,  which  produced  in  their  minds 
no  alteration;  they  shewed  a  sulky  angry 
countenance,  which  intimidated  the  officers, 
"who  If  ere  obliged  to  give  wav  to  the  iust  sen« 
timents  of  then*  men ;  they  dbreaded  tne  effect 
of  this  change  in  the  minds  of  those  £nglish-r 
men  who  were  attached  to  lord  Pigpt,  and 
^bp  abhorred  th^  idea  of  dragging  himi  along, 
durine  the  darkness«.of  the  mght,  under  the 
<^to^y  of  a  man  who  had  once  violated  his 
duty  to  lord  Pieot,  bv  putting  his  hand  upon 
his  person;  where  ne  was  to  be  carried  and 
to  what  distance  they  knew  nothing  of.  To 
their  honest  indignation,  to  the  sentiments  of 
Englishmen  sUurting  up  in  their  breasts,  lord 
Pi£ot  owed  his  preservation,  I  do  verily  be- 
lieve. 

Then  major  Home  very  judiciously  took 
the  part  to' say  to  lord  Pigot,  if  he  would  give 
hts  word  there  should  be  no  disturbance,  ho 
would  be  answerable  for  his  person  to  colonel 
Eidingtoun  till  they  had  farther  orders;  that 
-word  was  easily  and  readily  given,  for  lord 
Pigot's  conduct  from  the  beginning,  was  to  re- 
commend to  his  friends  to  prevent  all  dis- 
orders, that  there  should  be  no  civil  broils, 
that  there  might  be  no  confusion  in  Madras. 

Gentlemen,  these  circumstaiibes  warrant 
me  in  the  conclusions  I  have  drawn,  upon  the 
intention  of  that  order  to  major  Home ;  but  I 
am  farther  confirmed  in  it,  by  a  passage  I  w[ll 
rciad  to  you  from  the  defence 

VOL.  XXL 


by  the  coroner's  inouest  at  Madras;.  I  will 
read  the  passage,  ana  appeal  to  the  force  of 
your  observations  upon  it :  "  Had  we  had  any 
*•*  intention  to  take  away  his  lordship's  life, 
*^  could  fortune  have  thrown  a  more  &vour^ 
**  able  opportunity  in  our  way,  than  when  he 
**  resisted  our  orders  to  remove  him  to  Cliin- 
^  eleput?  were  we  capable  of  entertaining  so 
**  horrid  an  idea  we  might  have  exe9ute^  it 
**  then,  and  sheltered  ourselves  under  the  law ; 
"  for  we  will,  remark  to  you,  that  we  were  not 
'^  only  members  of  the  government,  but  also 
^'  justices  of  the  peace ;  and  our  lenity  on  that 
<'  occasion  surely  demonstrates^  that  we  chose 
''  rather  to  let  pass  with  impunity  a  resistance 
*'  to  our  orders  on  the  part  of  lord  Pigot,  and 
^*  »  disobedience  on  that  of  colonel  Home  and 
<<  colonel  Eidingtoun,  than  that  his  lordship 
**  should  suffer  tne  least  personal  violence.'\^ 
I  have  read  the  passage;  I  only  ask  this 

auestion,  whether  it  is  possible  to  conceive 
lese  ideas  could  h^ve  entered  into  the  heads 
of  men,  whose  hearts  had  not  been  formerli 
framed  to  the  ideas  of  homicide  ?  They  talk 
of  being  sheltered  under  the  law ;  and  state, 
in  cold  blood,  the  situation  of  lord  Pigot,  and 
their  intentions  to  remove  lord  Pigot  to  Chin* 
gleput,  and  the  resistance  to  that  order  even 
afforded  an  opportunity  of  taking  off  lord 
PigoL — sheltering  themselves  under  the  la% 
— and  they  claim  merit  to  themselves,  that 
they  did  not  then  perpetrate  that  horrid  pur-" 
pose.  Could  such  a  new  idea  have  entered 
the  mind  of  any  man,  but  such  as  had  pre- 
viously formied  this  conjecture  to  himself,  that 
the  attempt  to  carry  him  toChingleput  would 
afford  an  opportunity  for  putting  him  to 
death  ? 

Gentlemen,  this  is  a  great  part  of  the  de- 
fence given  in  by  themselves,  and  published 
by  themselves,  as  an  account  of  their  conduct, 
which  they  gave  upon  an  occasion  not  nece^ 
saryto  state  to  you:  ,The  coroner^s  inquest 
plainly,  with  a  very  laudable,  but  at  the  same 
time  a  very  unskilful  zeal,  attributed  the 
death  of  lord  Pigot  to  the  whole  train  of 
his  imprisonment,  and  found  it  wilful  murden 
La  answer  to  which,  the  defendants  gave  in  a 
very  long  paper,  of  which  this  that  I  have 
just  now  troubled  you  with  b  a  part. 

I  am  now  near  the  close  of  wnat  I  have  to 
trouble  you  with,  which  has  been  very  long. 

«  See  p.  238  of  a  p«bUo*lioB  entitled  '*  Origiul 
Papers;  vith  ««  aothentio  Stale  of  tbe  Proofii  aa4 
Prooeedings  before  the  Coroner's  Inqoest,  whioli  waf* 
aaeembled  at  Madras  upon  the  death  of  Lord  Pigol^ 
on  tbe  lllh  day  of  May  1777 ;  likewise  the  sobsA- 
qnent  Proofs  and  Proceedings  before  the  Jostioes  al 
Madras,  with  the  Opinions  of  the'Jndmof  the  Sn- 
preme  Court  of  Jodioature  in  Bengal.  To  tbe  whola 
are  sabjoined,  the  Defence  of  Mr.  Stratum  and  th« 
other  Messbefs  of  Conaoil,  aoonsed  by  the  verdiot  of 
the  Coroner's  Inquest ;  and  the  sepaitto  Defence  o€ 
Brigadier  Genend  Stuart,  for  himself  and  the  ]y|iU- 


made  by  the     tary  under  his  Command,  ^o."    I^ondon,  1779. 

4  A 


1091] 


19  GEORGE  UI.         Proceedings  ogmtH  George  SiraUoii        [1092 


You  now  see,  that  on  the  S9d  of  August  1776, 
they  were  in  full  possession  of  the  govern- 
ment. When  they  took  possession  of  the 
usurped  government,  they  round  it  necessary, 
and  they  suspend  all  who  were  in  the  opposi- 
tion ;  as  to  Mr.  Lathom.  they  turned  him  out 
of  office,  and  all  who  haa  shewn  any  attention 
to  lord  Pigot,  and  filled  the  offices  with  their 
own  creatures ;.  and  they  gave, — which  is 
usual  in  the  East,  I  understand,  when  there 
IS  a  governor  deposed, — ^they  gave  a  donative 
to  the  troops  for  their  quiet  henavipur  in  this 
business,  and  distributed  amongst  themselves 
all  the  offices  of  the  government.  To  the 
time  lonl  Pigot  died,  he  continued  in  confine- 
ment :  on  the  11th  of  May  1777,  his  captivity 
and  his  life  ended.  He  was  seized  with  a  vio- 
lent illness  at  the  Mount ;  then  he  was  re- 
moved from  the  Mount  to  the  Company's 
Garden-house,  still  under  confinement ~  All 
under  sickness ;  and  the  guards,  whom  the 
humanity  of  major  Home  had  taken  off,  were 
replaced  again  by  the  defendants'  orders ;  and 
he  died  in  imprisonment.  And  I  cannot  state 
a  circumstance  more  strong  of  itself  to  move 
commiseration,  and  at  the  same  time  indig- 
nation, than  the  circumstance  of  lord  PigoVs 
family  begging  his  dead  body  of  Mr.  Stratton. 
At  last  they  were  permitted,  by  the  goodness 
of  that  government  that  took  place,  to  bury 
him  witli  all  the  honours  due  to  his  station. 

I  have  now  gone  through  all  the  faicts  that 
leem  to  be  necessary  for  your  consideration 
upon  the  present  occasion ;  I  state  them  from 
such  evidence,  that  I  can  have  no  doubt  they 
will  be  proved  to  you  exactly  as  I  have  stated : 
in  a  great  part  of  the  evidence  you  find  I  refer 
to  the  most  unsuspected  of  all  grounds ;  I 
ground  myself  not  only  upon  the  facts,  but 
the  accounts  the  defendants  themselves  have 
given— 1  judge  them  out  of  their  own  mouths. 
In  other  parts  where  positive  proof  cannot  be 
had,  the  circumstances  I  believe  you  will  find 
so  positive,  you  will  adopt  those  conclusions 
I  have  drawn,  and  will  take  them,  when  you 
have  heard  the  evidence,  to  be  more  than  con- 
jecture. In  the  course  of  the  narrative,  there 
are  undoubtedly  many  things  that  have  escap- 
ed me ;  that  has  been  a  great  deal  too  long, 
but  it  is  impossible  to  comprize  it  in  a  smaller 
bulk ;  and  at  the  same  time  that  which  might 
have  escaped  me,  the  eentlemen  will  pomt 
out  to  you,  but  stating  the  import  of  what  it 
is,  when  the  evidence  is  callea  for.  I  do  not 
expect,  therefore,  upon  the  facts  of  this  case, 
there  will  be  any  sort  of  controversy;  and  if 
there  is  no  controversy  upon  the  facts,  I  am 
at  a  loss  to  conceive  what  possibly  can  be  the 
defence.  I  have  read  the  vohune  published 
on  the  behalf  of  the  four  gentlemen  accused 
at  your  bar  upon  their  case ;  they  have  a  legal 
majority ,--be  it  so ;  how  is  that  a  defence  ? 
Does  that  empower  them  to  depose  and  im- 
prison their  governor?  Does  that  extend  in 
any  decree  to  a  justification  of  the  acts  com- 
mitted r  In  their  own  papers,  they  tell  you 
^cy  were  driven  to  this  by  UMMsity,— they 


state  necessity, — ^they  call  it,  in  their  reason- 
ing upon  it,  m  their  letters  to  the  directors, 
necessity :  where  was  the  necessity }  In  the 
first  place,  you  observe,  that  before  any  dis- 
sention  of  a  violent  nature  in  the  setUeroent,' 
the  (juestion  merely  was  this,-T>Mr.  Russel  was 
appomted  to  go  as  resident  to  Tanjore  by  lord 
Pigot ;  Mr.  Stuart  was  likewise  to  go  as  com- 
mander in  chief;  that  the  defendants  de- 
sired.   Lord  Pigot  proposes  they  should  both 
go  together ;  they  contend  Mr.  Stuart  should 
go  and'  Mr.  Russel  not  go.    Now,  unless  it 
was  an  absolute  necessity  to  the  very  being  of 
the  government  of  Madras ;  unless  the  wu)le 
must  have  fallen  into  total  confusion  unless 
Mr.  Stuart  did  go,  and  Mr.  Russel  not  goto 
Tanjore, — ^there  existed  no  necessity  for  the 
last  quarrel;  because  the  whole  dispute  bfr- 
tween  the  governor  and  them  might  be  quiet- 
ed, if  they  had  not  persisted  that  it  was  o^ 
cessary  that  Mr.  Stuart  should  and  Mr.  Rus- 
sel should  not  go.    As  to  necessity,  you  will 
judge  how  affected  all  that  is;  and  whether 
all  the  circumstances  of  the  case  more  na- 
turally lead  you  to  conclude,  that  a  scheme 
"vna  formed  in  consequence  of  that  interest 
Mr.  6enfield*s  claims  produced,  and  being  at 
all  events  determined  to  be  masters  of  the 
Tanjore  revenues.    But  they  say  then,  as  to 
lord  Pigofs  conduct,  the  claims  that  he  set 
up  were  imcoostitutional,  and  nobody  knows 
to  what  length  they  might  have  gone.  They 
talk  of  supjiosed  danger  to  sir  Robert  Fletcher: 
how  far  his  clums  were  unconstitutioDa],  I 
don't  know  how  to  enter  into  the  exanunip 
tion.    Lord  PisoVs  claim,  in  the  manner  yoi 
wUl  bear  stated,  is  a  claim,  not  only  deaded 
by  very  great  authority,  but  ought  to  be  de- 
fended by  every  authority.    The  constitution 
lord  Pigot  states  to  be  the  constitution  of  the 
government  of  the  East  India  setttenoents,  b 
to  consist  of  a  president  and  comcil;  the  pl^ 
sident  is  an  integral  part  of  the  gpvemmeDt, 
and  without  a  president  tiie  council  are  not  it 
liberty  to  act,  tncy  cannot  of  themselves  ha?e 
private  meetings  and  make  themsehres  a  go* 
vemment   Suppose,  for  a  moment,  lord  Pi^^t 
was  wrong,  it  can  be  of  no  avail  to  them-,  if 
it  was  an  error,  be  has  considerable  support 
in  it;  especially  when  it  was  oftcred  by  wro 
Pigot,  that  all  mention. of  his  claim  should  be 
referred  to  the  directors,  and  the  middle  took 
was,  it  should  betaken  no  fsuther  notice  of  tiH 
the  directors'  pleasure  should  be  known :  Does 
that  proposition  made  by  lord  Pigot  dcsenrc 
imprisonment  and  death  ?  Is  it  a  justifiation, 
or  a  proper  defence  for  all  the  enormities  they 
have  committed  ?  Unless  I  have  worked  up 
jny  mind  to  a  very  strange  state  of  enthu- 
siasm upon  this  business,  I  am  convinced  il 
is  no  more  possible  to  fnune  a  defence  for  the 
parties  now  charged  against  by  the  present 
mformation^  than  it  would  have  been  if  the 
death  of  lord  Pigot  had  happened  in  the  in- 
stance stated  bv  me ;  or  been  the  immediate 
consequence  of^the  act  he  did.   If  the  purport 
of  the  letter  had  been  all  carried  into  cscco- 


1093] 


and  others,  for  dinning  Lord  Pigot. 


A.  Di  1779. 


fl094 


tion,  and  lonl  Pi^ot  had  been  the  victim  of 
that  order,  I  conceive  it  impossible  to  defend 
that  Clime  by  anv  of  the  sort  of  topics  HaaX 
have  been  treated  of  by  them. 

I  shall  pass  over  them  very  slightly;  Tcan 
only  pick  them  up  from  such  papers  as  they 
have  published  in  their  defence.  If  stated 
from  those  papers^  I  shall  have  an  opportu- 
nity of  making  my  observations  upon  them : 
if  the  excellevit  judgment  of  my  learned  friend 
should  incline  him  to  rciect  such  a  futile  de- 
fence  as  the^  have  already  published,  it  would 
be  very  idle  m  me  to  mis-spend  your  time  upon 
,  them.  Upon  the  whole,  you  will  be  so  ^od 
^s  to  bear  m  your  mind  these  principal  facts : 
That  down  to  the  mention  of  infield's 
claims  all  appeared  quiet;  all  seemed  in  a 
fegular  course  of  carrying  into  execution  the 
orders  of  the  Company.  From  the  moment 
of  Benfield'B  claims;— the  claims  to  the  reve- 
nue of  Tanjore  are  in  the  name  of  tienfield, 
but  they  in  fact  bottom  themselves  upon 
this;  that  the  nabob  Mohammed  Ali  is  to 
conftinue  possession  of  the  revenues  of  Tan- 
tore,  as  having  a  risht,  as  he  says,  to  the  emo- 
luments of  a  fourtn  part  of  that  government 
crop,  for  the  time  that  is  stated ; — ^tliese  claims 
operate  an  entire  change  in  the  system,  and 
in  the  votes  and  proceedings  of  council ;  they 
first  operate  the  conversion  of  Brooke ;  then 
they  gain  the  full  vote  of  him  and  Fioyer,  and 
settle  all  the  doubts  in  Floyer's  mind ;  and  by 
that  means  they  effected  a  majority. 

Gentlemen,  you  will  attend  to  the  evidence 

that  will  be  given  to  you,  and  connect  the 

circumstances  of  the  meetings  held  amongst 

them ;  and  you  will  find  whether  the  proof 

accords  with  my  assertions ;  that  Benneld's 

<!laims  are  fictitious,  and  represent  only  the 

claim  of  the  nabob  to  the  entire  possession 

of  the  revenue^,  with  the  advantages  to  ac- 

Cnie  to  those  who  had  agreed  to  take  one- 

ibiirth;   and  you  must  consider,  upon  the 

whole,  whether  all  the   circumstances  to- 

gjether  do  not  shew  a  conspiracy  against  the 

person  of  lord  Pigot,  to  possess  themselves 

of  the  government  by  securing  his  person, — 

not  arisinz  suddenly  from  any  act  of  intem- 

|lerance  of  lord  Pigot  in  the  execution  of  that 

government,  but  from  partiality  and  design 

in  them,  as  the  means  to  accomplish  the  ol>- 

i4bct  they  had  in  view,  of  preventing  lord  Pi^ot 

Irom  carrying  into  execution  the  orders  of  tne 

Company,  for  the  restitution  of  Tanjore,  which 

fix»m  such  motives  I  have  stated  they  were 

determined  to  obstruct  that  which  it  was  his 

du\y  to  persevere  in,  and  in  which  duty  I  am 

persuaded  he  would  have  risked  that  life  he 

lost  at  last  in  carrying  into  execution  those 

orders  of  the  Company  ? 

Gentlemen,  that  is  the  whole  of  the  case ; 
1  'beg  pardon  for  taking  up  so  much  time ;  if 
iTiave  not  been  able  to  lay  it  before  you  with 
so  much  clearness  and  force  as  I  wish,  1  am 
sure  that  will  be  amply  supplied  by  his  lord- 
ship, and  from  your  attention  to  the  case,  as 
I' do  not  doubt  of  a  real  attention;  and  a  Uuiy 


comn^endable  zeal  which  you  and  every 
hcnest  man  must  bring  to  a  cause  like  this, 
to  vindicate  the  honour  of  this  country  in  ths 
eyes  of  all  nations,  and  to  wipe  off  this  ^taim, 
from  the  land. 


Mr.  Peter  Mitckel  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Solicitor  General, 

Sol.  Gen.  Ave  you  in  any  office  belonging 
to  the  East  India  Company  ? — ^I  am  secretary 
to  the  East  India  Company. 

How  long  have  you  been  in  that  office  l-^ 
About  nine  years. 

'    Wcje  you  brought  up  in  the  office  ? — I  have 
been  in  flie  secretary's  office  about  fifly  years. 

Sol.  Gen.  Look  at  that  entry  of  the  com- 
mission. 

•  Court.  They  will  not  put  you  to.  the  proof 
of  authenticating  the  commission. 

Sol.  Gen.  My  lord,  it  is  only  in  point  of 
form. 

Mr.  Mifchel.  This  is  an  original  minute, 
appointing  lord  Pigot  governor  and  com- 
mander in  chief  of^  Madras,  and  the  Coro- 
mandel  coast: 

Is  the  town  of  Madras  one  of  the  principal 
settlements  under  the  government  ot  Fort  St. 
George  ?— It  is  the  principal  settlement  under 
the  government  of  Fort  St.  George. 

Another  Minute  shewn  to  the  witness.  * 

Is  that  one  of  the  commissions  ? — It  is. 

[The  greatest  part  of  the  evidence  being 
,  contained  in  books,  by  the  agreement  of 
counsel  on  both  sides,  the  letters,  &c. 
were  read  by  the  associate  as  called  for 
by  them  alternately.  So  much  of  the 
evidence  as  was,  according  to  the  course 

'  adopted,  particularly  produced  on  behalf 
of  the  defendants,  has  been  indented 
from  the '  other  part  a^d  inclosed  in 
brackets.  They  were  accordingly  read 
in  the  order  of  time  as  follows :] 

First,  the  Commissions  appointing  lord 
Pigpt  governor  of  Fort  St.  George,  &c.;  datrd 
the  4th  and  5lh  of  April  1T75,  Signed,  P. 
Mitchel,  Secretary. 

The  Order  of  the  Court  of  Directors  for  the 
restoration  of  the  king  of^  Tanjore;  dated 
April  12th,  1775. 

From  the  beginning  to  the  1 1th  article, 
[From  the  1  Ith  to  the  21st  article.] 

The  24th  article.. 

Att.  Gen.  That  appointment  of  the  Com- 
niittee  to  make  the  circuit  of  the  Northeru 
Circar,  your  lordship  sees  is  not  to  be  made 
till  the  affair  of  the  restoration  of  Tanjore  is 
finally  settled. . 

[The  35th  article  read.l 


1095]  19  GJ^OHGp  IIL         Proeeedingi  ^tamt  George  SiraHon        [1099 


Evidence  from  the  Books,  called  Copies  of  { 
Papers,  relittive  to  the  RestoraUon  of  the 
King'of  Tanjore^  &c.  agreed  to  be  read. 

At  a  Consulution,  dated  Fort  St.  George, 
11th  of  6ec.  177.%  page  33.  Present,  Uie 
right  hon.  lord  Pigot,  governor,  president. 
Mr.  StrattOD)  sir  R.  Fletcber,  Messrs.  Dawon, 
Brooke,  Daliymple,  Stne,  Palmer,  Jourdan, 
Mackay,— Purport— letters  ftwa  tbe  Co:urt 
of  Directors  to  restore  the  king  of  Tanjore, 
read  there,  dated  18th  of  April,  as  received 
per  the  Grenville.  Opinion  of  the  Board ; 
QftsX  caution  and  delkicy  necessary,  in  com- 
municating the  same  to  the  nabob;  the  pre- 
sident is  requested  to  commimicale  the  Com- 
paiiy's  orders  to  the  nabob,  and  endeavour  to 
gain  his  compliance. 

Extracts  of  Military  Consultations,  dated 
FortSt.  George,  22d  Jan.  1776,  page  37.  Pre- 
sent, Lord  Pigot,  and  the  sameijouncil  as  be- 
fore^^i^Thepurpott :  President  acquainted  the 
Board,  aftei*  many  consultations  with  the 
nabob,  he  had  assured  his  highness  it  was  im- 
possible to'  accept'  his  offer,,  that  the  Com- 
pany's trooj[>8  should  garrison  Tanjore  under 
any  conditions;  which  implied,  the  country 
should  remain  under  the  nabob's  manage- 
ment. That  he  had  received  a  long  letter 
^m  the  nabob ;  would  see  the  nabob  upon  it. 
'  Resolved  by  the  Board,  in  the  mean  time 
orders  be  given  to  part  of  the  Company's 
troops  to  hold  themselves  in  readiness  to 
march. 

Extracts  pf  Consultations  of  S5th  January, 
1776 ;  present,  the  governor  and  council  as 
before.  President  acquainted  ^e  Board,  that 
the  nabob  had  promised  to  give  immediate 
orders  to  remove  his  troops  ftova  Tanjore^  ex- 
cept 1,000  seapoys,  who  were  to  keep  pos- 
session till  the  Company  took  possession. 

Letter  from  the  nabob  read,  says, "  That  he 
bad  received  iSie  letter  from  the  president, 
and  an  extract  of  the  Company's  orders  on 
the  subject  of  Tanjore ;  that  ne  was  convinced 
the  Company  would  not  have  given  such  or- 
ders without  misrepresentations  having  been 
gnren  them,  and  being  totally  unacquainted 
with  ai&irs  there.    Comphdns  of  the  miscon^ 
duct  of  Tuljaujee^  that  t^e  expences  he  had 
been  at  were  on  account  of  Tai^ore,  two  lacks 
and  sixty  odd  thousand  pagodas,  and  stands 
amazed  after  that  expence  in  five  years  such 
an  order  should  come  firom  the  Company." 
[Mr.  jyunning.    Please  to  tuni  back  to 
page  43,  and  read  the  last  paragraph  but 
one  of  the  nabob's  letter: — ^  The  concern 
I  am  under  since  the  perusal  of  these  or- 
ders, &c.  is  so  great,  he  was  unable  to  ex- 
press.   His  honour  and  that  of  his  family, 
'    and  afiairs  in  general,  will  be  hurt,  and  that 
of  the  Company,  as  well  as  the  tranquility 
of  the  Camatic."--Page  44.  <«  Can  lunar 
^ne  that  the  gentlemen  of  the  Company  | 
-  afUr  approving  of.  should  again  disapprove 
of  the  measure?  What  wiU  neople  say  of 
this  event?  States  the  money  lent  him  for 


that  very  business  he  most  pay,  and  bis  re-» 

imbursement  is  from  the  country  of  Tan* 

jore,"  &C.1 

Extracts  of  Military  Consultations:  I4tli 
Feb.  1776,  page  56.  Present,  lord  Pigot  and 
Council  as  before ;  read  a  letter  from  o^nel 
Harper,  dated  Tanjore,  9th  Feb.  1776 ;  to  in- 
form the  governor  and  council  he  had  that 
rooming  taken  possession  of  the  Fort  of  Tan- 
jore. 

Extract  of  a  Letter  from  the  Governor  and 
Council  of  Fort  St.  George  to  the  Court  of 
Directors,  dated  14th  Feb.  1776,  page  57: 

Your  honours  were  advised  in  a  short  letter 
we  wrote  to  you  by  the  Salisbmy,  &c.  Pur- 
port :  That  nabob  pretended  to  have  no  ob- 
jection to  the '  country's  troops  taking  pos- 
session of  Tanjore';  but  expressed  a' desire  to 
have  the  Qompany's  orders  for  that  purpose 
communicated  to  nim  in  writing,  infomung 
them  colonel  Harper  nad  taken  possession  on 
the  9th  inst. 

That  the  rajah  was  set  at  liberty  agreeably 
to  their  orders :  lliat  the  nabob  was  much  in 
debt ;  that  the  revenue  of  Arcot  for  13  months 
win  barely  pa^  them,  and  five  lacks  of  pago- 
das due  to  his .  troops :  That  they  haa  pro- 
mised, if  the  nabob  would  disband  his  troops, 
aind  keep  none  but  what  were  paid  by  the 
Company,  they  would  intercede  with  the 
rajah  for  him  to  engage  to  pay  the  amount 
of  the  assignment  out  of  the  produce  of  the 
Tanjore  country.  * 

At  a  Consultation,  dated  March  lltb,  1776, 
present,  lord  Pigot  and  Council  as  before :  A 
letter  produced  trom  the  nabob  to  lord  Pigo^ 
dated  26th  Feb.  1776,  p.  79. 

Letter  declining  to  send  an  account  of  the 
orders  on  theTai\)ore  country,  and  desiring  to 
wait  for  further  orders  frdin  the  Company. 

Letter  td  the  nabob,  daWd  6th  March,  17T6» 
p.  81,  desiring  that  he  will  give  an  order  to 
liis  officers  in  the  Tanjore  country  to  relink* 
quish  all  manner  of  authoritj  wnen  called 
upon  by  his  letter  so  to  do. 

Same  page.  At  a  Consultation,  present  as 
before,  dated  Fri^^y,  March  s{Sd. 

A  letter  produced  from  the  nabob,  dated 
19th  March,  1776,  urgine  his  claim  to  Tan- 
jore, and  representing  nis  oistiess  if  the  Com- 
pany's orders  be  executed.     * 

Letter  to  the  nabob  in  answer,  dated  Maidi 
23,  1776,  from  lord  Pigot^  acknowledging  the 
receipt  of  a  letter  from  the  nabob  of  tue  1 9tliy 
acquainting  him  that  the  public  faith  b 
pledged  to  the  rajah  of  Tanjore,  as  well  as  to 
nis  highness;  tHat  the  orders  of  the  Com 
pany  to  him  were,  that  the  country  of  Ttd- 
jore  shall  be  agdn  put  into  the  hanids  of  the 
rajah. 

At  a  Consultation,  present  as  before,  dated 
Monday^  March  25.       ' 

'A' minute  of  the  preadent,  that  be  judges 
firom  the  nabob's  letter,  that  he  will  not  < 
sent  to  the  order  of  the  Company  being 
ried  into  execution  respecting  Tanjore; 
the  state  of  the  crops  not  admitting  any  fi»> 


10973 


a^d  othfr^fjbr  defodiig  Lord  JfHgoi. 


A.  D.  1779. 


[1098 


tl;ier  delav^  that  he  had  made  preparations  for, 
going  to  Tamore  the  SOth  of  March,  to  place 
the  rajah  in  niH  possession  of  the  country. 

The  following  question  then  moved  by  the 
president,  Whether  it  was  proper  and  neces- 
sary for  lum  to  go  to  Taiyore,  tor  the  reasons 
set  forth  as  above  ? 

Agreed  ui  the  affirmative  unanimously. 

A  second  motion  firom  the  president^  Thaf 
the  governor  may  take  with  him*  to  Tan- 
jore  any  of  the  Company's  servants,  whether 
civil  or  military. 

Carried  in  the  affirmative — ^Mackay  and 
Jourdan  against  H. 

Sir  U\  Fletcher  has  no  objec^on,  provided 
they  are  not  members  of  the  Board. 

Kesolution,  that  the  governor  hold  the 
same  authori^  when  present  in  any  forty  &c- 
tory,  or  settlement,  under  the  presidency^  as 
if  present  in  Fort  St  Ceorg;e. 

Carried  in  the  affirmative — ^]!|Kackay  and 
Jourdan  a^inst  it. 

Sir  E.  Fletcher  objects  to  i^e  governor 
holding  any  military  command  out  of  the 
garrison  of  Fort  St.  George,  except  over  his 
own  guard;  and  thinks  his  lordship  ought 
not  to  go  wtthouj^  a  deputation  firom  the  Board, 
and  moves,  that  two  members  of  the  council 
go  with  him.  Messrs.  Mackay,  Jourdan  and 
Palmer,  for  the  motion,  which  was  carrii^  in 
the  negative. 

Ordered,  that  th^  governor  be  furnished 
with  such  parts  of  the  last  le^t^rs  from  Eng- 
land which  relate  to  Tanjore. 

letter  to  colonel  Harper  fat  Tanjore,  direct- 
ing him  upon  the  arrival  of  lord  Pigot,  to  put 
himself  under  his  command ;  dated^  Fort  St. 
George,  85th  of  March,  1776.' 

Sir  IL  Fletcher  objects  to  the  letter. 

At  a  consultation  jpresent  as  before,  dated 
Thursday  S8th  of  March,  1776,  president  laid 
before  the  board  a  letter  from  the  nabob,  with 
bis  answer  in  consequence,  p.  91. 

Letter  from  the  nabob,  ^ted  March  25tb, 
177^,  containing  farther  arguments  ag^st 
the  delivering  up  the  Tanjore  country. 

Letter  to  the  Nal^b  frpm  Lord  Pigot,  dated 
M,arch  37tb,  1776,  from  Fort  St.  wot^. 

The  honour  I  have  in  acknowledging  the 
recdpt  of  your  letter  of  the  25th,  gives  me  an- 
other opportunity  of  expressing  my  desire  of 
executing  «the  orders  of  the  Company,  as 
conformable  to  your  wishes,  as  the  faith  of  my 
nation,  and  my  duty  to  my  employers  will  per- 
mit. (Signed)  Pigot.' 

Leti^  from  t^e  nabob,  dated  ^th  March, 
t7T6,  still  refusing  to  resign  the  country  of 
Tanjore,— desires  to  wait  a  .farther  answer 
from  the  Company. 

'  The  president  act^uaints  the  bo^^  he 
means  to  take  with  him  Mr.  Dalrymple,  Jour- 
ilfn,  (^hambers  as  interpreter,  and  captaii^ 
Woo4;  3pth  ^arch  lord  Figot  set  off  for  Tan* 
'ore ;  ISth  of  April*  letter  came  from,  lord 

igot  to  the  councU  at  Madr;^  didedTaiki 


f 


jore,  April  8th,  1776,  informing  t^c^  of  his 
aridval  there. 

At  a  consultation  24th  April,  p.  101.  Pre- 
sent Geo.  Strat^on,  esq.  president,  Messieurs 
Dawson,  Ston?,  Russell,  Mackay ;  sir  kobert 
Fletcher;  Mr Pahner. ]^r  Brooke indisppsecl. 
Letter  read,  received  from  lord  Pigot,  on  thq 
17th,  with  a  letter  from  th^  rajah  of  Taqjore, 
stating,  on  Thursday  last  the  rajah  went  in 
procession  round  the  town,  and  inclosiiM^  a 
cop^r  of  the  public  orders  lord  Pigot  issu^a  at 
Tanjore  for  the  restoration  of  the  rajah. 

That  public  Order  read,  dated  in  Tanjf(i^ 
April  11th,  1776,  reauiripg  all  pejsQns*  civil 
and  mili^iry,  under  tn^  protection  of  the  Com^ 
pany,  to  con^id^r  the  rajah  of  Tanjore  as  agaia 
restored  to  his  Country  iff  the  full  extent  of 
that  government,  as  at  the  conclusion  of  th? 
Treaty  in  1762.  (SigM)  Picor. 

Letter  from  the  rajah  of  Tanibre  read,  to 
lord  Pi|;ot,  expressing  his  grabtude  for  tbt 
friendship  and  extraonlinary  justice  which  the 
Company  had  displaved  towards  him  in  his 
restoration ;  pray  mg  they  will  allow  him  troops 
for  the  protedtion  of  his  country,  for  which  &. 
vour  be  will,  with  pleasure,  assi^  the  mout  of 
his  revenues  the  sum  of  four  lacks  of  pagodas 
per  aiuium,  to  defray  military  expences;  he 
wishes  the  Company  to  buy  of  hini  at  a  rea- 
sonable rate^  the  grain  of  the  present  year,  e3(« 
cept  what  his  country  shall  Xte  in  need  of, 

Minute  on  the  letters  from  lord  Pigot  and 
the  rajah  of  Taniore.  The  offer  of  the  rajah 
to  allow  four  lacks  of  pagodas  for  the  expedce 
of  the  troop's  was  cdnuWy  to  the  Company'a 
orders.  The  Board  are  of  opinion  the  rajah 
should  be  informed  that  no  more  of  this  sum 
than  is  sufficient  to  defray  the  expence  of  the 
gatrison  shall  be  required  from  him,  and  if  he 
requires  more  force,  he  may  haVe  as  much 
force  as  he  chuses  to  provide  funds  fot. 

With  respect  to  the  last  parae;raph  of  lord 
PigoVs  letter,  recommending  that  theCom-^ 
pany  purchase  (he  grain  of  the  rajah,  the  mem- 
Ders  of  the  board  ^ve  separate  opinions :  Mr. 
Mackay  has  no  objections  to  purchase  paddy* 
from  the  rajah,  provided  it  is  not  grain^  mort- 
eaaed  by  the  naodb  to  individuals,  whilst,  he 
nan  the  ^vemment  of  that  country ;  he  thinks 
that  gram  should  not  be  disposed  of  till  suct^ 
time  as  the  Board  should  have  time  to  tak6 
that  matter  into  consideYation '. 

Mr.  Palmer  of  the  same  opinion. 

Mr.  Stone,  for  the  reasons  given  by  the 
rajah,  it  will  be  proper  to  purchase  upon  the 
Company's  account  what  paddy  he  can  collect 
for  them. 

Mr.  Russell  of  the  same  opinion, 

Mr.  Dawson  of  the  iame  opinion,  w,ith  thi^ 
ad(^tion^ — and  that  he  may  nave  a  right  to 
dispose  of.  ^ 

«  '<  Paddy,  rice  in  the  has^."  G1obsv7  to  the  Fifth 
Report  froro  tlie  Select  Compiitted  appointed  to  en- 
quire into  the  present  stale  of  tke  affairs  of  the  Baft 
India  Company  ;  which  Report  wis  matfe,  July  ^S$ 
tfiift*    NaUd  bj  ord«r  of  the  Home  of  CoinmoBib 


1099] 


19  GEORGE  III.         PrceeetSngt  againa  George  Sir/Mm        [1100 


Sic  R.  Fletcher  of  opinion  with  Mr.  fifackay. 

The  President  of  opinion  that  it  is  quite 
proper/ for  the  reasons  assigned  by  the  rajah, 
to  purchase  on  the  Company's  account  what 
grain  the  rajah  may  collect,  more  than  he 
&inlcs  necessary  for  the  consumption  of  his 
.country. 

Sir  K.  Fletcher  informs  them  he  founds  his 
opinion  upon  the  umdoubted  information  he 
h^s  received,  that  a  ereat  part  of  the  erain  of 
the  Tanjore  country  nas  been  assigned  by  the 
nabob  to  his  creditors,  some  of  whom  are  Bri- 
tish subjects. 

Read  a  letter  from  Mr.  Pan!  Bepfieid  to 
George  Stratton,  esq.  and  the  council  of  Fort 
^  St.  George,  dated  22d  April,  1776;  rcprescnt- 
'  ing  he  had  claims  on  the  Tanjore  country  foi 
money  lent  to  the  nabob,  and  that  he  had  sent  a 
letter  to  lord  Pigot  at  Tanjore  informing  Mm 
of  the  same,  dated  13th  April,  1776,  with  a 
postscript  that  he  had  acquainted  his  lordship 
gcoerallv  at  Madras  with  the  claims  he  had  on 
the  Tanjore  country. 

The  Answer  to  that  letter  read,  dated  ISth 
April,  1776;  stating  that  he  had  acted  by 
orders  from  the  Company  for  the  restoration 
pf  the  rajah  of  Tanjore ;  and  by  those  orders 
he  was  commanded  to  assure  the  rajah,  in  the 
Company's  name,  that  they  will  punish  every 
military  officer  or  Coxnpany'a  servant  who 
shall  in  any  respect  interfere  with  the  afiairs  of 
his  government,  but  that  he  would  on  his  re- 
turn to  Madras  lay  his  letter  before  the 
council;  and, 

Mr.  Benfield*s  Replv  to  lord  Pigot,  dated 
^4th  of  April;  stating  he  cannot  conceive  hb 
"(rst  claim  on  the  Tanjore  country  interferes 
Fith  the  rajah's  government;  or  that  the 
Court  of  Directors  meant  to  deprive  him  of  his 
right,  in  the  execution  of  their  orders ;  that  it 
would  be  hurtful  to  his  affi&irs  if  the  revemies 
asMgned  to  him  should  be  otherwise  applied 
than  paid  to  his  servants  in  the  different  coun- 
tries appointed  to  receive  them. — He  shall  be 
readv  at  any  time  to  lay  before  them  sufficient 
▼ouciiers. 

President  moves  a  copy  of  Mr.  Benfield's 
letter  be  transmitted  to  lord  Pigo^  and  the 
consideration  of  it  defened  till  ms  return. 
Mr.  Mackay  for  the  motion,  provided  lord 
Pigot  is  informed  the  grain  mortgaged  to  Ben- 
field  be  not  meddled  with  by  him  or  the  r^ah 
until  the  Board  have  come  to  a  determination 
on  it. 

Messrs.  Palmer^  Stone,  Russel,  and  Dawson, 
for  the  motion. 

Sir  R.  Fletcher  against  it— The  president 
ibr  it 

Letter  from  the  nabob  to  Mr.  Stratton, 
dated  the  Slst,  received  the  22nd  of  April, 
1776;  p.  113. 

Complaint  from  the  nabob,  of  lord  Pigot's 
proceeaings  at  Arielore,  seizing  his  dobbeer 
and  some  others,  with  their  papers,  &c. 

S4th  of  April,  dispatch»i  the  following 
letter  to  lord  I%ot}— stating  •  they  luul  re- 
ceived his  ]ordsbi|?8  letters  of  &  Oth  aad  13th, 

t 


and  tmnmittiiif  Benfield's  letter  to  Ihem  to 
his  lordship,  ana  tfadr  opnkm  on  the  rajah's 
ofiers  as  given  on  the  S4th. 

At  a  consultation,  Monday,  13th  May,  1776, 
p.  115. 

Present,  The  right  hon.  lord  Pigot,  governor, 
president  Messrs.  Stratton,  Dawson,  Russel, 
Stone,  Jourdan  ;  sir  R.  Fletcher ;  Messrs. 
Brooke,  Dalrvmple,  Palmer,  Mackay. 

Minutes  of' the  last  consultation  rod. 

The  Present,  being  returned  from  Tanjore, 
gives  them  an  account  of  the  execution  of  his 
commission,  by  restoring  Tanjore  to  the  ra^ ; 
and  la3ring  before  them  a  maiy  with  letters 
and  papers,  &c. 

Att.  Gen.  My  loni,  what  follows  is  a  very 
long  diarv,  from  the  time  lord  I^got  lett 
the  fort  till  he  returned.  '  '^ 

Court.  Can  that  be  material  ? 

Att.  Gen.  1  will  pass  it  over;  unless  they 
have  a  mind  to  read  any  thing  out  of  it. 

Mr.  Dunning.  There  is  not  a  passage  in  it 
of  sufficient  importance  to  give  the  gentleman 
the  trouble  of  reading  such  a  long  detail.  But 
in  that  diary  there  is  an  account  of  two  cir- 
cumstances,  in  whibh  the  coiMluct  of  lord 
Pigot  in  Tanjore  was  such,  as  did  not  merit 
their  approbation ;  that  was  the  treatment  of 
oiie  Comra,  some  run  away  servant  of  the 
rajah ;  and  the  dobbeer  or  auditor  general  of 
the  province :  those  two  circumstances  are 
distinguished,  by  being  excepted  out  of  the 
approoation  of  the  president  and  council,  unon 
the  return  of  lord  Pigot.  I  do  not  know  that 
they  are  material,  it  is  only  to  observe  those 
transactions  ptfss^  during  that  inter%'al ;  the 
nature  of  them  is  not  very  material  I  believe. 
— If  I  recollect 'right,  the  transactions  were 
shortly  this ;  one  Comra,  a  Madras  dubash,* 
had  intruded  himself  last  night  at  eleven,  and 
made  a  noise  in  some  body's  house,  for  which 
he  was  ordered  to  be  chabucked ;  what  that 
b  I  do  not  know. 

\F.  121,  read. — ^In  the  morning,  con>- 

aamt  having  been  made,'  that  Comra,  a 
ladras  dubash,  had  intruded  himself  last 
night  at  IX  o'clock  when  the  rajah  was 
gone  to  sleep,  and  behaved  himself  very 
.  unproperly :    gave  orders  that  he  ahoukl 
be  chabucked  upon  the  parade.  J 
Att.  Gen.  It  wul  turn  out  that  Comra  was 
a  servant  of  some  body*s  who  had  no  busineaa 
there. 

[On  the  13tb,  rave  captain  Tonyn  orders 
to  proceed  with  ibe  troops  to  Viq^erum  to 
escort  the  dobbeer  hither. 

Mr.  Dunning.  I  take  the  dobbeer  to  be 
the  auditor  general,  and  to  have  the  prm- 
cipal  direction  of  the  revenues  in  the 
oountiy.    [P.  126,  received  a  letter  from 

: /         

*  '*  Dubash — Oiie  who  spcakt  two  lutpmgn,  ui 
intMpreter :  the  Hindoo,  who,  at  Madras,  Bumagea 
the  monej  concerns  of  the  Boropean,  and  serves  hia 
as  a  confidential  agent  in  his  private  and  p«bb« 
tiaanotions  with  the  otber  nalifM."  Glonwy  Uf 
Hw  Fiftk  Itoport,  ace. 


1101] 


and  otIierSiJbr  deposing  Lord  Pigot* 


A.  D.  1779. 


[110« 


captain  Tpnyn,  l^th  April :   that  the  dob«  | 
beer  was  gone  from  Vickerum  to  Arielore, 
where  he  mteilded  to  follow.] 

[P.  15.  Received  a  letter  from  captaia 
Tonyn  at  Arielore,  that  he  had  taken  the 
doboccr,  and  that  he  would  escort  him  to 
Tahjore,  which  he  accordingly  did  this 
day.] 

Court.  The  nabob  complmns  of  this;  that 
makes  it  material. 

[Mr.  Dunning.  But  there  is  one  circum- 
stance more  to  be  added  to  it ;  Arielore, 
'  -  where  he  was  taken,  was  in  the  nabob's 
dominions.] 

Att.  Gen.  The  whole  complaint  of  the 
seizure  of  the  dobbeer  turns  out  to  be  false  by 
and  by;  therefore  I  desire  a  moment's  sus- 
pension of  opinion  upon  it. 

[Mr.  Thinning.  This  is  in  lord  Pigot's 
diary  ffrom  the  officer)  of  what  h*!,  lord 
Pigot,  had  done.] 

Aft.  i}en.  The  matter  was  examined  into 
afterwards,  and  captain  Tonyn  examined ;  his 
examination  is  a  part  of  these  papers,  which^ 
in  the  sequel  of  the  business,  i  will  read. 
[Mr.  Dunning  When  I  stood  up,  it  was 
for  the  purpose  of  shewing  lord  Pigot's  con- 
duct at  Tanjore  had  met,  in  general,  with 
the  approbation  of  the  board;  with  the  ex- 
ception of  two  persons,  the  proceedings  in 
that  diary  had  met  with  approbation.] 
* '  Court ,    I  only  observe  one  thing  from  it — 
You  have  read  all  these  things  very  correctly, 
which  X  wonder  at :  to  be  sure  it  is  an  ocean 
of  evidence. 

[Mr.  Dunning.  It  surpasses  all  my  in- 
dustry'.] 

Court.  I  wonder  you  had  time  to  examine 
them.  ^ 

glr.  Dunning^.   In  truth,  I  had  not  time 
cient. 
P.  148.   The  board  approve  of  the  pre- 
*   sident's  proceedings  on  liis  commbsion  to 
Tanjore. 

Mr.  Mackay  approves  of  them  except  the 
seizing .  of  the  dobbeer  in  the  nabob's 
country,  and  flogging  Comra  Dubash  upon 
the  parade.] 

At  a  consultation  on  Thursday,  May  the 
Idth,  1776,  p.  157,  called  for— 

[Mr.  Jjunmng   We  desire  to  have   a 
passage  in  p.  50  read  first,  in  a  letter  from 
■    the  nabob  to  lord  Pigot.] 

The  beginning  of  the  letter  from  lord  Pigot 
to  the  nabob  read;  dated  Fort  St.  George, 
JSth  May,  1776;  stating  his  lordship  wrote  it 
in  answer  to  two  letters,  which  had  been  sent 
to  Mr.  Stratton  and  the  council,  complaining 
of  a  trouble  and  uneasiness  of  mind. 

That  Narroo  Pundit  the  dobbeer,  after 
Tanjore  was  taken,  refused  to  act  witliout 
-the  rajah's  commands  as  he  would  not  desert 
liim. 

Accusing  the  nabob  of  ungenerosity  in 
seizing  that  venerable  old  public  officer  be- 
•f^ecn  70  and  80, — the  first  officer  of  the 
'Xanjore  revenue.    That  the  dobbeer  informed 


his  lordship  that '  the  nabob  had  received  40 
lacks  of  pagodas  in  3  years  from  Tanjore, 
which  was  much  more  than  his  expences. 

The  revenue  of  Tanjore  for  that  year  was 
12  lacks,  and  he  had  left  only  3  for  me  rajah. 
—The  good  purpose  it  had  answered,  he 
hoped,  was  a  sufficient  reason  for  escorting 
the  dobbeer  to  Tanjore. 

[Shall  thejeates  of  Arielore  or  any  other 

gates  in  the  Payen  Ghaut,  be  shut  aeainst 

Uie  Company's  troops  who  have  fought  for 

you  near  SO  years,   when  they  ask  ad-. 

mittance  by  my  authority  ?  I  hope  not  v^ ' 

This  would  be  an  improper  return.  &c.] 

Letter  to  Mr.  Benfield  contained  in  pag« 
159,  laid  before  the  Board  at  a  considtation, 
upon  Thursday  the  16th  of  May,  1776,^iened 
R.  J.  Sullivan,  secretary.  To  inform  mm, 
that  on  Mojiday  next,  the  president  and 
council  intend  taking  into  consideration  hiar 
letters,  and  directing  him  to  prepare  what 
else  he  has  to  offer  on  the  subject.  /  '    ; 

[Mr.  Xenyow— Turn  to  p.  155.] 

Att.  Gen.  My  lord;  I  do  not  object  to 
any  evidence  th^y  call  for,  in  the  course  of 
my  evidence,  which  comes  in  order  of  time« 
— I  only  observe  this  is  evidence  given  in- 
defence. 

Court.    It  is  better  to  be  taken  so  for  botli ; 

— the  observation  is  very  risht  to  be  made. — 

I  should  not  have  known  n  'otherwise,  only 

by  guessing,  as  Mr.  Kenyon  called  for  it. 

[Letter  from  the  governor  and  council  of 

Fort  St.  George,  to  the  honourable  the. 

pourt  of  Directors,  dated  14th  May,  177^^ 

informing  them  of  the  nabob's  saying  he 

would  never  consent  to  the  restoration  of 

Tanjore ;— that  Tanjore  was  restored  to  the 

rajah,  who  engaged  to  pay  400^000  pagodas. 

annually,  for  the  assistance  of  troops,  6cc, 

to  the  Company.] 

At  a  consultation-  p.  160,  present-^the 
president  lord  Pigot,  Messrs.  Stratton,  Russell, 
bali^mple,  Stone,  Palmer,  Jourdan,  and 
Mackay. 

Sir  R.  Fletcher,  Dawson,  and  Brooke,  in- 
disposed. 

.Letter  produced  there  from  Mr.  Benfield, 
respecting  his  claims  on  the  Tanjore  country. 
;  Stating  the  emn  of  the  present  crop  deli* 
vered  over  to  him  by  the  circar  on  account  of 
his  claims,  had  been  taken  possession  of  by 
the  Company's  seapoys  and  people  of  the 
rajah.  Sated  6th  May,  1776. 

Another  letter  to  the  same  effect  from  Mr. 
Benfield,  dated  SOth  May,  fo.  161. 

Resolved.— These  letters  he  upon  the  table 
for  the  consideration  of  a  full  Board;   in. 
the  mean  time  the  secretary  to  call  upon  him 
for  sufficient  vouchers,  &c.  ' 

At  a  consultation,  Monday,  STth  May, 
1776. 

Present,  lord  Pigot  and  all  the  members  of 
the  council. 

Minutes'  of  the  last  consultation  read, 
p.  163. 

Letter  from  Mr.  Benfield  laid  before  the. 


1103] 


19  GV.ORGE  IIL         Procecdtngs  agamst  George  ShreUm        [IIM 


Board — directed  to  Mr.  Secretary  Sullivaii. 
That  he  had  not  been  able  to  prepare  his 
letter  in  answer  to  one  of  the  SSd,  but  would 
i^id  ic  before  10  the  next  mornings  dated  S7th 
May. 

The  board  rescue  to  meet  at  10  the  next 
&y  to  tike  his  claims  into  consideration. 

At  a  oonsuhation  present  as  before,  S8A 
May,  p.  165. 

Letter  from  Mr.  Benfield  read,  dated  Sdth 
May  1770 ;  bis  former  letter  taken  into  cod- 
sit^eratkm. 

His  letter  of  the  28th  states  his  claims  on 
the  fiouba  *  of  Monagoody,  from  Feb.  1775 
fo  t7th  Nov.  in  the  same  year  said  to  be  ar- 
tklesw — Bj  the  naboVs  perwannahf  onac- 
eouiit  of  odnd  debts  for  advances  made  by 
him,  B.  S6%090  pagodas. 

That  the  jperwannahs  had  been  re^stered 
1^  the  doboeer  in  tiie  cutcherry^  and  he  had 
an  assignment  and  mortgage  of  Monagoody 
subah. 

Translation  of  letter  firom  tiie  nabob  to  Paul 
B^nfield  read— p.  109. 

Mt.  Gen.  Your  lordship  wiQ  please  to 
take  particulair  notice  of  that  letter  from 
the  nabob  to  Mr.  Benfield,  dated  20th  li^y 
1770. 

Acknowledge  the  account  of  the  several 
boilds  due  from  nim  to  Benfield  for  repairing 
fort,  alid  paying  troops  at  Tanjorc  ana  other 
purposes,  309.091  pagodas,  and  the  other 
sums  clldmed  by  Benfield  amounting  to 
595,000' pagodas,  value  350,000/. 

Att,,  Gen,  It  is  from  this  letter  I  state 
the  demand  of  the  items  to  the  amount  of 
309|000  pagodas,  the  assignment  of  the  reve- 
nues in  payment  of  this  demand  is  dated  ii) 
ICovember. 

[fii^r.  Dunning.  The  mortgage  for  the 

whole  debt  was  proposed  in  November.] 
^  Att.  Gen.  The  perwannahs  have  no  spe- 
cific date  when  the  articles  were  advanced; 
the  other  sums'  are  demands  upoA  the  inha- 
bitantSy  as  I  stated  it  to  liie  jury. 

Court.  I  attended  tO  you  very  closely  -  the 
resolution  was,  that  his  claims  were  mad- 
missible;  nbt  of  a  public,  but  a  private  na- 
ture. 

[Mr.  Tfuhnmg.  Vonr  lordship  will  find 

that  Vas  ne^rer  sugge^t^  in  India.] 

Att.  Gen.  Your  lordship  will  observe  my 
<A>ehihg  to  be  correct  whien  we  come  to. 
the  next  day's  proceedings ;  what  I  mentioned 
it  just  now  for,  was  to  shew  you  I  was  correjct 
in  classing  the  claims  in  the  manner  I  had: 
and  giving  you  the  date,  not  of  the  supposed 

*  **  Sabah.  A  prorinoe  sach  as  Bengal.  A  grand 
Aviiion  of  a  coontiy  which  is  again  diyidedinto 
oirotfs,  chucklahs,  pergmuiahs,  and  viUagea.  Bu« 
ropeans  ara  apt  to  confound  this  word  with  Sabahdar, 
the  ▼ioeroy  or  goiremor  of  a  provinoe."—- Glottair 
to  the  Piflh  Report,  he 

♦  "  Perwaonah.  A  royal' patent,  or  diploma.  A 
written  order  or  oomnittion,"— Richard«on'f  Peruaii 
PletioB^j,  bjr  Wilkini. 


advance  to  the  nabob,  but  the  actud  assigr 
ment  of  the  revenues. 

Court,   I  understand  you  perfectly,  it  il 
from  your  being  so  correct  one  b  cnaUed  to 

fakmg  with  you;  it  is  from  your  state  of  it 
speak,  and  nothms  dse.  That  is  a  point 
do  not  prooeea  upon  at  the  Boaro^  nor 
the  resolution  oponh-tfa^  do  not  aiy 
is  conclusive  or  a  fictitious  debt— or  tbt 
thb  is  a  oonchistve  aasorance  by  ihe  sdbob  of 
the  money  being  advanced ;— but  as  you  stsle 
it — as  hexo%  inadmissible  and  a  pirnte  aia- 
cern. 

[Mr.  Dunning.   Impeadui^  not  the  de- 
rivative right  or  title,  but  the  title  from 

whence  derived.] 

Court.  Not  acknowledging  the  titk,  but 
gdng  upon  that  ground. 

Att.  Gen.  The  next  thmg  is  the  Bo^ii 
calling*  upon  Benfield  for  more  paiticulsr  y> 
countsw — ^Resolution  read  for  Mr.  Benfield  to 
be  called  upon  for  more  particular  acoouab 
of  what  he  had  received  from  the  Taajom 
country,  of  the  bonds  fi^m  the  inhabitantSiaDd 
other  accounts.  Mr.  Daliymple  delivered  ia 
a  mmute  desiring  to  fauave  it  discussed  whe- 
ther the  members  of  the  council  were  liable 
to  actions  as  individuals  for  their  conduct  ins 
public  capacitjr  in  the  Tanjore  country? 

Adjourned  tin  the  next  day. 

Letter  sent  to  Benfield  to  prepare  his  a^ 
coimts. 

At  a  consulution  held  the  Sdth  of  tfsji 
present  the  president  knd  coi^dl,  as  befoiei 
p.  173. 

Letter  ftom  Benfield  statmg  his  daims  of 
594,749  pi^odas.  The  mor^ige  and  asap- 
ment  of  Jf.  369,090.  ^  naboVs  orders  oo 
Papanashem,  SO/XXX  By  ditto  subsh  ^ 
Puttcotah,  15,000.  By  liis  cli^s  on  the  io- 
halMtants  for  pioney  advanced  through  tbe 
clrcarsy  1S0,659.  CHher  claims  on  the  cmd> 
try  independent  of  the  Circars— no  price. 

That  the  records  of  the  cutchcny  woalo 
prove  the  3d  article— the  1S0^69. 

That  he  had  not  the  inhabitants'  bopdsit 
Madras;  they  are  in  the  cutcherxy,  or  in  tbe 
hands  of  some  of  his  people  to  the  southwu^ 
all  of  which  claims  ne  says  are  vouched  bj 
the  nabob. 

In  answer  to  that  part  of  Benfield's  kttff 
compMning'of  lord  Pigot's  conduct  in  ord^- 
ing  the  seapoys  to  seise  his  propertjr,  pits|' 
dent  desired  the  resolution  of  the  iI6th  » 
March  to  be  rea!d. 

Extracts  of  minutes  of  the  consultation  oo 
the  25th  of  March  1776,  read,  the  purport  d 
which  was— The  Company's  forces  show 
garrison  Tanjore  and  protect  the  nyab*8  coun* 
tiy. 

Resolution,  to  send  a  battalion  to  the  south* 
ward  to  enable  the  rajah  to  collect  his  rere* 
nues. 

A  letter  sent  to  captam  Mackenzie,  of  tbe 
6th  battalion,  to  proceed  for  that  purpose  to 
Mayaveram,  &c.  dated  13lh  April,  1776. 

Form  of  an  order  read-^firom  captain  Mi^ 


1105] 


and  others fjbr  deposing  Lord  Pigot. 


A.  D.  1779. 


[1106 


kenzie  to  his  officers  on  that  detachment  to 
proceed  to  *  and  to  protect  the 

officers  of  the  rajah  of  Taii|ore  in  themanage- 
ment  of  the  revenues. 

The  president  desires  the  opinion  of  the 
Board  as  to  the  propriety  of  those  orders  re- 
specting the  resolutions  of  the  council  of  the 
,  S^th  of  March  last,  and  the  powers  vested  in 
him  by  the  Board  to  carry  the  orders  of  the 
Company  into  execution. 

Resolution  of  the  Board  the  orders  were 
IMToper. 

President  moves — Not  in  the  power  of  the 
Board  to  comply  with  Benfield's  requests-^ 
that  the  clums  on  individuals  have  no  con- 
nections with  government,  and  the  assignment 
of  the  nabob  not  being  admissible. — 

A«dnst,the  question — ^Messrs.  Mackay, 
'  Jourdan,  Palmer,  sir  R.  Fletcher. 

.  For  the  question— Messrs.  Stone,  Dalrym- 
ple,  Russel,  Brooke,  Dawson. 
.  Mr.  Stratton  against  it. 
.  The  president  for  the  question,  with  this 
addition,  Benfield  has  broke  through  the 
standing  orders  of  the  Company  in  many  in- 
stances. 

Couff,  Read  the  resolution  a^ainl 

That  the  rajah  of  Tanjore  bemg  put  in  the 
full  possession  and  management  of  his  coun- 
try by  the  Company's  express  orders,  it  is  the 
opinion  of  the  Board  that  it  is  not  in  their 
power  to  comply  with  Mr.  Benfield*s  requests 
m  any  respects ;  those  claims  on  individuals 
which  bear  the  appearance  of  having  no  con- 
-nectkms  with  government,  not  bemg  suffi- 
ciently explained  to  enable  the  Board  to  foim 
an  opmion  thereon,  and  the  assignment  of  the 
nabob  not  being  admissible. 

Carried  in  the  affirmative  by  6  to  5. 

At  a  consultation^  present  lord  Pigot,  and  a 
liiU  council,  dated  3d  June  1776. 

Letter  firom  Mr.  L'Epuie  enclosing  a  packet 
from  sir  Edward  Huehes. 

Letter  from  sir  Edward  Hughes  read^in  fa* 
your  of  the  nabob,  p.  189. 

Letter  from  the  nabob  to  sir  Edward  Hushes, 
oosnplaining  of  lord  PigoVs  conduct,  &ted 
June  3d,  1776. 

Copy  of  a  transktMn  of  a  letter  from  the 
nabob  to  lord  Pigot,  dated  Sdth  May,  p.  185, 
accusing  him  of  taking  possession  of  part  of 
^his  country. 

Letter  ordered  to  be  sent  to  sir  £.  Hughes, 
from  the  Board,  replying  to  the  nabob's  com- 
plaints. 

The  president  lays  before  the  Board  ano- 
ther letter  from  the  nabob,  dated  May  the 

Sd,  Gen.  That  is  petty  much  the  same 
as  the  other ;  you  need  not  read  it. 

At  the  same  coiisultatidn  Mr.  Mackav  says, 
I  put  my  negative  to  the  motion  put  by  the 
j^ident  at  the  last  consultation,  because  ,1 
think  the  nabob  has  a. right  to  the  govern- 
ment share  of  the  crop  in  the  Tanjore  coun- 


VOL.  XXT. 


*  flo  ia  orig. 


trf,  sown  in  1775,  and.  reaped  in  the  begin^ 
nine  of  1776. 

liie  general  purport  of  .the  rest  of  his  rea- 
sons was;  all  assignments  of  orders  ^ven  by 
the  nabob  at  the  lanjorc  country,  as  tar  as  his 
share  of  this  crop  would  pay,  odght  to  stand 
good ;  that  the  Court  of  Directors  could  not 
eive  any  precise  orders  respecting  that  particu- 
lar, they  not  being  acquainted  with  the  time  of 
harvest ;  That  they  never  meant  in<tividuals 
and  British  subjects  should  be  deprived  of 
their  property  in  that  country  by  its  being 
taken  fiom  the  nabob  and  given  to  the  rajab; 
That  Benfield^s  loans  do  not  appear  to  be  con- 
trarf  to  the  orders  of  the.  Directors;  he  does 
not  allow  the  orders  of  1710  and  1713  to  be  i 
in  force  now ;  what  misht  be  proper  then, 
might  not  be  so  now ;  'Fhat  lending  money 
in  the  country  at  the  legal  interest  of  12  per 
cent,  is  no  injury  to  the  Company  or  natives, 
nor  any  mterference  with  the  country  govern- 
ment. 

[Mr.  Palmer  of  the  same  opinion,  Mr. 
Jourdan  of  the  same  opinion,  sir  Li.  Fletcher 
of  the  same  opinion — giving  additional  rea- 
sons, and  among  the  rest  quoted  damacea 
being  recovered  from  Mr.  VerelstbyUie 
Armenians,  for  the  losses  they  sustained 
through  his  influence  in  Sujah  al  powlah's 
count^ — ^that  he  understood  B^ifield's  mo-  . 
ney  to  have  been  actually  paid  for  property 
purchased,  &c. 

Mr.  Stratton  of  the  same  opinion,  giving 
his  reasons— In  particular  that  he  thinka 
the  nabob  intitled  to  the  present  crop,  by 
his  -having  advanced  very  consiilerable 
sums  to  the  inhabitants  for  the  cultivation 
thereof,  in  consequence  of  which  he  had 
mortgaged  the  government  share  of  certain' 
lands  to  Benfield.] 

Mr.  Brooke  gives  in  a  miniite  proposing  to 
consider  the  proceedings  of  the  29th. 

Sol.  Gen.  They  allow  the  nabob  the  profits 
of  the  crop  from  the  term  of  the  capture  to 
the  restoration  of  the  rajah. 
Court.   When  was  the  capture  ? 
Mr.  Smiths  In  the  be^ning  of  September^ 
1773. 
Court.   The  crop,  in  September,  is  over  ? 

[Mr.  Dunning:   There  are  three  crops 
there  every  year;  the  last  crop,  which  is  . 
material  to  the  present  question^  was  the 
crop  usually  reaped  in  March.l 
Mr.  Rous.   By  the  papers,  tne;y  reaped  in 
November; — in  the  intermediate  time  they 
took  possession  of  the  ibrt  of  Tanjore,  there- 
fore tne  nabob  reaped  the  crop  sown  by  tha 
r^ah. 

Court.  I  want  to  understand  the  times,  the 
two  years  intervening  the  capture  in  Septem- 
ber 1773  and  this  transaction  in  1776. 

FMr.  Kenyan.  The  crop  was  reaped  in 
March  1776 ;  your  lordship  recollects  the 
proclamation  of  lord  Pisot,  declaring  the 
nyah  put  in  possession  o?  Tanjore,  was  in 
May  1776,  two  months  after  the  crop  was 

T»pc4.J 

4-« 


MOT] 


19  GCOKGB  nL  VrouiiMmp  oganai  Geargt  BtraUtm        [tM 


.The  Bond  sgm  Mr.  finooke**  wt^aan  be 
€Omyhef\  with,  p.  197. 

Toe  Boaid  to  meet  oa  Thursday  next,  to 
coDMder  the  proceedii^  of  the  39th  iilt. 

(^ole,  Hooday  was  the  Boani  day) 

Letter  from  Beoliekl  to  the  Board  read, 
d^ted  Sd  June  1770. 

That  he  had  ndbrmed  the  president  of 
them  before  he  went  to  Tanjore. 

Supposed  French  or  Dutch  daims  would 
not  be  neglected,  and  hopes  tbej  will  support 
his. 

Consultation,  6th  June,  1776,  p.  199. 

Present  lord  Pigot,  president. 

Mr.  Stratton,  sir  E.  Fletcher,  Messrs.  Daw- 
son, Brooke,  Russell,   Daliymple,  (Floyer) 
8tone,  Palmer,  Jourdan,  and  Mapkay. 
'Bir.  Floyer  takes  his  seat  at  that  Board. 

Letter  from  sir  E.  Huehes  read,  admit- 
ting that  he  had  recovea  their  letter,  and 
had  sent  a  copy  of  his  and  the  reply  reoored, 
tothe.nabob«  Dated  8t.  Thoniey  3d  June, 
1776* 

'  Mr.  Benfield's  business  postponed  till  Mon- 
dajr  next 

t  'At  a  consultation,  present  the  governor  and 
a 'full  board  of  council,  Monday,  June  10,  p. 
SOS.  ' 

•Mr.  Floyer  presents  a  minute  giving  his 
reasons  upon  the  propriety  and  necessity  of 
^RTii^  his  opinion  on  Mr.  Benfield's  claim. 

Resolved,  Mr.  Floyer  not  having  been  pre- 
sent before  at  the  discusnon,  that  the  re- 
consideration of  it  be  deferred  till  Thursday 
*  next. 

[Defendant's  Coumel,    We  wish  to  read 

part  of  a  letter  from  lord  Pigot  to  the 

council  of  Bengal,  dated  ISth  June,  1776. 
Part  of  a  letter  from  lord  Hgpt  and  the 

council  of  Fort  St.  Geor^  to  governor 
iHastings  and  the  comicil  at  rort  M^liam. 
"  We  have  intelligence  that  large  guaa- 

titles  of  military  stores  have  been  lately 

Ibnded  at  Pondicherty ;  it  is  alledged  they 

arc^  for  Ilyder  Ally. 

"  That  1 ,90a  men  have  been  landed  at  the 
.islands  with  stores  and  ammunition ;  that  a 

64  gun  ship  and  a  frigate  were  expected  at 

Pbndicherry,  with  400  military  and  many 

-  old  officersi  who  served  ia  the  last  war  in 

India,"] 

.Sol.  Getu  Now  go  to  page  !^S0  upon  the 
fame  consultation. 

Mr.  Fioy^  delivered  \u  the  following  mi- 
nule,  in  which  he  appeals  to  the  board,  whe- 
ther it  Was  proper  for  him  to  give  a  vote  in 
Mr.  Ben6eld^B  business. 

Mr.  Floycr's  letter  taken  into  considers^ 
tjon. 

The  board  of  opinion  he  ought  to  vote. 

President  tlien  moved  that  the  resolution 
of  the  council  of  the  29th  inst.  do  stand  con- 
£rmed  respecting  BenAeld^s  claim. 

-Against  the  motion — Mackay,  Jourdan, 
PsUmer,  Floyer,    Brooke,    sir  R.    Fletcher, 

olsftCtOin,    .... 
For  the  moUoon-Stone,  Dalrymplt^  Ru9s«1, 

t 


Dawson,  aod  die  FpeadoL   C^nnediatfae 
negative  7  to  5. 

Mc  Dalrym^  aeqoainled  the  bond  Art 
sir  R.  Fletcher  and  Mr.  Macka?  hmg  de- 
cbied  they  would  give  an  answer  to  fais  mi- 
nufte,  he  would  not  iorm  ai^  ju^oientti&bs 
bad  seen  their  answers. 

Mr.  MackaT  aftetwaids  acqnuB&ig  tbt 
board  that  he  had  some  ooestions  to  BKrre,  it 
b  agreed  to  adjoum  tUl  to-monow  bkkwi^ 
10  crclock,  to  take  tha  sane  into  oonsyos- 
tion. 

Court.  GentlenMn,yoawiliallepdiiowto 
what  is  reading,  it  begins  novlocoiiietBa 
very  material  part. 

At  a  consultsi&Mi^  present  as  befive,  Fndiyy 
June  the  14th,  p.  2d4. 

President  mcnred  that  the  bcMud  mqr  cone 
to  the  following  resohitioD : 

Tt^  all  the  daims  of  Mr.  Bedield  are 
private,  and  not  publie  concerns; 

Mr.  Mackay  onscrved  to  the  bond,  Ttnt 
their  meeting  this  morning  was  in  conse- 
quence of  yesterday's  adjoivumeBl,  to  Iske 
some  motions  he  had  to  make  into  considen- 
tion ;  and  therefore  thinks,  in  point  of  pio*> 
prietT,  that  his  motbn  should  be  tskenioto 
debate  before  the  resolution,  that  is  nov 
moved  by  the  president,  is  put  to  the  vote. 

Upon  which,  the  president  faavine  explaiiMd 
what  be  thinks  the  custom  of  the  serrioe^ 
that  the  business  intooduced  by  him  be  lint 
taken  into  debate,  desires  the  sentimeiit  of 
the  board  upon  this  question. 

Whether  the  resolution  proposed  by  bim,  or 
the  motions  intended  hy  Mr.  Mackay,  show 
be  first  taken  into  consideration  ? 

Carried  for  Mr.  Madcay's  motion  being' 
first  put,  7  to  5. 

Wheisupon,  Mr.  Mackay  moves,  Thst  it  is 
the  opinion  of  the  Board,  that  the  nabob  bad 
a  tint  to  the  government  share  of  the  oop 
in  the  Tanjore  country,  the  produce  of  gtuB 
sown  during  the  time  it  was  m  hisposacwwwij 
and  that  any  mortgages  lie  may  have  givenoa' 
the  same,  are  good. 

The  President  thinks  tho  Board  an  not 
competent  judges  of  the  matter;  aSitheyvo 
entirely  relative  to  the  supposed  rights  (»  w 
nabob,  he  moves  that  Mr.  Mackay^s  cpiestko 
be  not  put,  as  tt  (p.  930)  may  tend  to  the  most 

fatal  consequences. 

Mr.  Mackay  for  the  questk>n  being  ^i 
Mr.  Joardan  ft)r  the  same. 

Mr.  Palmer  for  the  same. 

Mr.  8tone  a^inst  it. 

Mr.  Floyer  tor  the  question. 

Mr.  Floyer  delivers  m  a  minute,  which  wa* 
so  kwit  Was  not  read. 

Mr.  Dalrymple  against  Maekay^s  motion. 

Mr.  Ruis^el  against-tbe  motion. 

Mr.  Brooke  m  the  motion. 

Mr.  Dawson- gainst  it. 

Sir  R.  Fletcher  for  it. 

Mr.  Stratton  for  it 

President  asatnst  it. 

Carried  in  the  negatiyvy"^  &  S. 


1109] 


«mf  oHken,Jbr  deposing  Lord  P^ol, 


A.  D.  1779; 


tlll« 


Mr.  Mttcksy's  que^ion  was  thereupon  put» 
and  carried  in  the  affirmative^  7  to  5. 

Mr.  Mackay  farther  moves,  that  a  letter  be 
written  to  the  rajah  of  Tknjore  to  inform  him 
f  of  the  resolution  of  the  Board,  and  to  recom- 
mend him  to  give  .Benfield  assistance  in  reco- 
vering such  debts  as  appear  due  to  him  from 
the  iimabitants,  as  well  as  to  restore  to  him  the 
grain  of  h»t  jear,  ly^ich  is  said  to  be  forcibly 
talcen  from  him  by  the  regah's  people. 

President  moved  an  amenoment  to  Mr. 
Mackay*s  motion— That  the  nabob  be  in- 
formed of  the  resolution  of  the  Board,  to  de- 
nre  him  to  send  his  officers  with  their  accounts 
into  the  Tanjore  country,  that  the  dobbeer 
may  be  enabMd  to  la^r  before  the  Board  a  true 
state  of  the  nabob's  rights  to  the  government 
thare  of  the  crop  in  the  Tanjore  country,  that 
the  BMrd  may  form  an  opimon  how  far  those 
mortgages  and  orders  he  may  have  given  are 

Carried  against  the  amendment,  7  to  5. 

Mr.  Mackay's  moUon  put  and  carried  in  the 
«Lffirmative,  7  to  5. 

Mr.  Mackay  then  moved  it  to  be  recom- 
mended to  the  rajah  to  account  with  Beniield 
for  the  government  share  of  grain  in  tlie  dis- 
tricts assigned  to  him  by  the  nabob,  and  said 
to  have  been  forcibly  taken  from  his  people. 

Carried  in  the  affirmative,  7  to  5. 

President  reasons  in  particular  against  the 
motion ;  because  it  was  directly  opposite  to  the 
orders  received  from  the  Company  by  the 
Granville,  and' because  it  will  authiorise  Co- 
mera  the  dubash  to  transact  his  affairs  with 
the  rajah  of  Tanjore,  who  had  the  insolence  to 
propose  to  the  rajah  the  renting  his  whole 
country,  and  to  declare  to  him  that  he  was 
supported  bv  seven  of  the  council,  and  told  the 
-nfUi  that  he  vras  not  to  comply  with  lord 
.Pupt's  advice,  but  to  refbse  his  assistance; 

Ordered  by  the  Board,  that  Comera  be  sent 
ibr. 

President  moves  his  first  question,  that  all 
the  claims  of  Mr.  Benfield  are  private,  and  not 
poiblic  cmieems. 

Mr.  Mackay  is  of  opinion  that  the  claims  so 
far  as  they  regpird  Mr.  Benfield  are  private,  but 
so  far  as  they  regard  the  nabob's  assignments 
to  Mr.  Benfield,  thev  are  public. 

Mr.  Jounlan,  Palmer,  Floyer,  Brooke,  sir 
R.  Fletcher,  and  Stnttton,  are  of  the  same  opi- 
iuon. 

Mr.  Stone,  Dalrymple,  Russell,  Dawson, 
sDd  the  president  are  of  opinion  they  are  of  a 
private  nature. 

The  president  acouaints  the  Board,  he  in- 
tervded  to  have  IbiWed  t)pe  Board  in  the 
above  'motion,  with  a  recommendation  this 
matter  mi^t  have  been  referred  to  the  Court 
cf  Directors. 

'    Court.  What  became  of  the  motion  ?  Is  not 
that  n^atived  7  to  5  ? 
Mr.  ^13.  Walker.  That  is  sud  nothing  of. 

*  [Mr.  Dunninf,    The  next  passage  shews 
'Im  Pigtt  considered  it  as  negatived;  he 


viys  what  he  meant  to  have  propc^ed  as  a 

fartlier  question.] 

The  president's  intended  motion  read. 

That  it  appears  to  this  Board  that  Mr.  Ben- 
field's  transactions  with  the  country  govern- 
ment are  contraiy  to  the  express  orders  of  the 
Company,  and  that  any  interference  therein 
naay  raise  apprehensions  in  the  rajah  of  Tan- 
jore, and  tend  to  involve  tlie  Company's 
affiurs  on  this  coast;  for  which  reason  it  is 
resolved  to  refer  this  matter  to  the  honoural>te 
Court  of  Directors. 

Att.  Gen.  It  was  publicly  known  ^t  Ma- 
dras, the  Company  intended. to  restore  the 
nyah  so  early  as  the  beginning  1775. 

Ccurt.  That  will  no  t^  decide  upon  the  terms 
one  tvay  or  the  other:  to  be  sure  it  was 
notorious. 

Att,  Gen.  It  was  known  by  the  nabob  and 
the  persons  there,  in  the  month  of  May. 

Gmrt,   Read  what  it  is. 

A  book  produced  by  Mr.  Mitchell. 

Sd,  Gen,  Look  at  that  book.  Is  that  a 
book  of  consultations  sent  from  Madras  to 
the  East  India  Company  ?— It  is,  sir;  in  the 
nulitary  department. 

What  council  is  it  signed  by?  do  yod 
know? 

AttocitUe,  I  will  reafl  it.  7th  of  April, 
1776. 

At  a  consultation,  present,  Alexand^ 
Wynch,  esq.,  president.  —  Messrs.  Smithy 
Brooke,  Jourdan,  Palmer,  Mackay,  Dawsoi^ 
Johnson,  oaffe  443,  read. 

It  is  well  Icnuwn  to  the  members  of  thil 
Board,  that  the  report  of  the  disapprobation 
at  home  of  the  conquest  of  Tanjore  has  al- 
ready reached  the  nabob's  ears;  and  some 
private  letters  have  gone  so  far  as  to  say,  he 
will  either  be  compiled  to  restore  the  n^ah 
to  his  coimtry,  or  to  dehver  it  up  to  the 
Company. 

[Mr.  Dunning.  This  is  ik)  evidence,  what 

general  Smith  talks  of,  or  any  body  else 

present  at  that  Board.] 

'Courl.  No,  none  at  all. 

Sol,  Gen,  We  shew  that  Mr.  Brooke  krtew 
of  the  intention  as  bemg  one  of  that  councQ. 

Cotir^  But  this  does  not  prove  it. 

Bol,  Gen,  They  knew  there  was  a  rumour 
of  his  beinerestored. 

[Mr.  Dunning,    We  shall  have  no  f^^ 

mours  I  hope;   there  are  abundance    of 

rumours,  all  of  which  cannot  be  read  in  a 

quarter  of  «i  hour,  all  of  which  cannot  be 

proved,  and  none  of  which  I  hope  wilf  be 

proved.] 

At  a  council  held  the  t7th  of  April,  1775, 
Alexander  Wynch,  esq.  president,  &c. — - 
p.  502. 

Minute  of  the  Boartf. — If  it  has  reached 
the  nabob's  ears,  that  a  report  prevails,  that 
be  will .  be  required  to  restore  the  country  to 
the  rajah,  or  give  to  the  Company  the  charge 
of  the  Fort,  it  appears  the  more  extraofdinarv 
)ie  should  think  of  patting  bis  second  son,  al- 
ready charged  with  the  commaad  of 


1 1 11]  19  GEORGE  IIL         Proceedings  against  George  Station         [1112 

troops,  in  the  particular  chaise  of  it,  espe- 
cially as  he  is  collecting  almost  all  the  forces 
from*  and  the  neighbouring  districts. 

[Mr.  Dunning,  It  may  be  a  sagacious  ob- 
servation, but  what  it  imports  I  do  not 
understand;  if  some  report  had  reached 
the  nabob*s  ear,  he  might  be  acting  wbely ; 
— but  from  tlus  I  cannot  tell  what  his 
wisdom  is.^ 

Court.  It  is  very  loose  evidence  in  such  a 
caf  e  as  this. 

P.  5S1 — At  a  consultation  held  1st  May, 
1775.  Present  Alexander  Wynch,  &c.  p.  553. 
The  president  informs  the  Board,  that  the 
chief  engineer  had  represented  to  him^  That 
a  man  who  had  served  the  Company  a  consi- 
derable time,  and  who  understands  castinjg 
of  guns  and  shot,  had  been  seduced  from  their 
SQprice,  and  is  now  employed  by  the  nabob  at 
much  higher  wages  tnan  he  received  here, 
that  the  nabob  is  makm^  a  foundery  at  Tan- 

jore,  under  the  charge  of  a  Mr.  F. \  late 

chaplain  to — 

Entry  at  the  consultation  the  3rd  of 
April,  concerning  the  orders  of  the  rajah 
about  the^iabob,  was  desired  to  be  read  again : 
agreed  it  be  publicly  mentioned  to  the  nabob, 
that  the  Board  cannot  but  remark  the  extra- 
ordinary conduct  of  the  nabob  in  coUectiii^  his 
troops  nearTanjoreat  this  time^&c.  Rescuved 
a  letter  be  prepared  to  be  sent. 

Ceufi.  That  leaves  it  just  where  it  was; 
the^  intended  to  restore  it  upon  certain  con- 
ditions, was  it  mentioned  what  are  these 
conditions? 

ICounsel/or  Defendant.    Go  to  p.  85S, 
the  joint  minute,  letter  C — the  third  para- 
•     graph. 

Ata  consultation,  Monday,  17th  of  June, 
1776. 
Present  as  before. 

Joint  minute  delivered  in  by  Mr.  Stratton, 
sir  R.  Fletcher,.  Messrs.  Brooke,  Floyer, 
Palmer,  Jourdan,  and  Mackay. . 
Letter  Cj  p.  25^. 

Stating  It  had  been  urged,  Benfield's 
claims  were  of  a  private  nature,  as  con- 
trary to  tlie  Company'^  order — and  that  the 
interference  of  this  government  would 
alienate  the  mind  of  the  nyah  and  Mar- 
rattas ;  They  reply, 

It  was  neces^ry  to  determine,  whether 
the  nabob  had  a  risht  to  the  crop  on  the 
^ound?  if  none,  the  claims  on  that  were 
ill  founded ;  if  right,  it  was  incumbent  upon 
them  to  consider  of  them.  That  the  na- 
bob's possession  gave  him  a  right,  from  the 
day  of  capture  till  its  restitution,  to  the 
crop  sown  during  that  time. 

P.  254.  That  Benfield  m  1773  became  se- 
curity to  the  Dutch  for  485,^5  pagodas, 
mentioned  by  the  nabob  in  his  treaty  with 
them. 


*  Here  the  reporter  hu  made 
which  I  have  not  ventared  to  lopptj, 
•f  So  io  orif. 


oaianon, 


That  the  president  had  reaaon  to  be- 
lieve the  nabob  would  not  otherwise  have 
been  able  to  accommodate  with  the  Dutch 
so  soon:;  Benfield  there&»re  of  service  to 
the  Company,  and  the  nabob,  &c. 

P.S65.  As  alarms  and  apprehensionB  have 
been  thrown  out,  that  dan^rous  conse- 
quences may  ensue  firom  this  step ; — ^We 
mean  only  to  recommend  to  the  rajah,  to 
see  justice  done,  leaving  manner  and  time 
to  himself,  and  to'  go  no  farther  without 
orders  firom  our  superiors.] 
Sol.  Gen.  Now  go  to  the  8th  of  July,  1776. 

[Mr.  Dunning.  In  the  same  date  thece 
are  some  motions  respecting  the  nabob. 

p.  S5Q._Moved  by  the  president. 

That  the  letter  from  the  nabob  to  sir  E. 
Hughes  was  written  purposely  to  create 
animosity  between  the  members  of  this 
government. 

*  Carried  for  the  question  by  the  presi- 
dent's casting  vote.] 

Court.  What  makes  the  di£ference  in  the 
numbers  ? 

[Mr.  Dunning.  Mr.  Brooke  voted  with 
lord  Pigot  in  that  question ;  bethinks  the 
letter  has  some  appearance  of  meaning  to 
create  animosity. 

President  moves ;  none  of  the  members 
of  the  Board  visit  the  nabob  or  his  sons. 

Carried  for  the  question,  by  the  presi- 
dent's casting  vote.    . 

President  moves,  it  be  recommended  to 
the  nabob  to  reside  at  Arcot,  as  murders, 
imprisonments,  thefls,  happen  from  his 
people,  while  the  nabob's  people  are  in  the 
Company's  bounds. 

Carried  against  the  question,  7  to  5. 

At  a  consultation,  Friday,  91st  of  June. 
Present,  the  president  and  all  the  council 
except  Mr.  Dawson. 

Mr.  Kenyou.  Only  read  one  passage  in 
that,  N".  3. 

The  president  lays  before  the  Board  a 
letter  prepared  to  go  to  the  Court  of  Di- 
rectors. 

N°.  3.  Should  your  honours  have  re- 
ceived a  short  letter  we  wrote  you  the  ]4lh 
of  May,  vou  will  be  surprised  to  find^  that 
the  whole  of  your  president's  conduct 
durine  the  time  he  was  at  Taiyore,  had 
been  disapproved  of  by  a  majority  of  coud- 
cil,&C. 

Mr.  Dunning.  They  had  in  truth  ap- 
proved of  them  all,  with  the  exoefitioa 
I  mentioned  some  time  ago;  soon  after 
which,  lord  Pigot  thought  fit  to  send  it  as  a 
private  letter.  It  was  rejected  7  to  4  on 
account  of  that  supposed  misrepreaentatkiii, 
as  they  conceived  at  least,  of  what  they  were 
doing. 

'  Resolved,  ,7  to  4,  the  letter  be  not  sent 

Mr.  Dunning.  Go  to  301.  In  that 
page  exists  thenrstproposition  about  send- 
ins  any  body  to  Tanjore.  Your  kvdship 
wul  find  a  proposal  of  tendiog  coloM 


UlS] 


md  Meritjifr  d^Mdng  Lord  P^ot, 


A.  D.  1779. 


[1114 


Stuart  there' a9  one;  and  afterwards  some- 
body else. 

At  a  consultation  35th  June,  p.  295. 

The  commander  in  chief  lays  before  the 
Board  a  letter  from  colonel  Stuart,  p.  dOI. 

Letter  from  colonel  Stuart  reao,  dated 
'June  22, 1776. 

Stating,  he  thinks  Tanjore  the  most  im- 
portant military  post  under  the  presidency. 

That  the  most  important  military  post 
belonged  to  him,  in  the  rank  he  held,  in 
case  sir  Robert  did  not  occupy  it  himself, 
and  hopes,  through  sir  Robert's  favourable 
representation  to  the  Board,  the  usual  prac- 
tice will  take  place. 

Ordered  to  fie  upon  the  table. 

Mr.  Dunning,  On  the  28th  of  June  your 
lordship  will  find  lord  Pigot,  for  the  first 
time,  has  an  idea  of  sen(ung  a  chief  and 
council  to  Tanjore. 

£xtract<— Fort  St.  George,  general  consul- 
tation, 28th  June,  1776,  p.  3-^6^  N.  2. 

President  proposes  a  cbiei  and  coun- 
cil to  go  to  reside  at  Tanjore.  fib  Robert 
JFletcher  proposes  the  previous  question, 
that  that  question  be  now  put;  which 
the  president  will  not  suffer,  he  considering 
It  as  an  innovation  upon  his  right  as  pre- 
sident.] 

Court.  Acfjoumed  to  when  ? 
AstociaU.     To  Monday  next,  and  agreed 
to. 

[Mr.  Dunning.  The  proceedings  on  the 
1st  of  July  are  only  material  as  to  this,  be- 
cause on  that  day  Mr.  Dawson  who  had 
leave  of  absence  returns  again :  the  busi- 
ness of  that  day  was  adjoumea.  The  ex- 
planation is,  that  as  Mr.  Dawson's  vote  was 
useful  or  not,  he  did  or  not  attend.] 
Att.  Gen,  Upon  the  1st  of  July  Mr.  Daw- 
son does  not  attend. 

Mr.  Dunning.  Please  to  see  if  Mr.  Daw- 
son is  not  there  on  the  Ist  of  July. 

AtBodate.  Mr.  Dawson  not  there  the  Ist 
of  July. 

An.  Gen.  Now  go  to  the  8th  of  July. 
Present,  at  a  consultation,  lord  Pigot  and  a 
lull  board. 

President  moved  the  question  before,  for 
^Ihe  appointment  of  a  chief  and  council  at 
Tanjore,  as  recommended  by  him  in  council 
the  28th  of  June,  may  pass. 
Carried  in  the  negative  7  to  5. 
Att.  Gen.  Read  in  page  357. 
./Die  president,  after  declaring  himself  for 
the  motion,  expresses  his  concern  that  he 
cannot  have  the  concurrence  of  the  Board  to 
carry  into   execution  a  measure  which  he 
still  thinks  essentiaUy  necessary ;   at  present, 
he  shall  acauiesce  with  the  Board  till  Uie 
pleasure  of  tne  Directors  can  be  known. 

Since  the  measure  recommended  by  him 
cannot  take  place  at  present,  he  hopes  ^e 
Board  will  not  have  any  objection  to  the 
appointment  of  a  resklent  at  Tanjore,  and 
moves  &r  the  appo)^Unent  of  Mr.  Russel ; 


Carried  for  the  motion  by  the  presidents 
casting  vote. 

[Mr.  Kenyan.  Read  pa^e  318,  vol.  1. 

Sir  R.  Fletcher  desires  his  motion,  entered 
in  the  consultation  of  the  24th  instant,  for 
rescinding  the  resolution  of  the  17th  inst. 
iHK>n  the  president's  second  question  about 
the  members  of  the  Board  not  visiting  or 
receiving  messages  from  the  nabob  or  his 
sons,  may  be  now  taken  into  consideration. 

The  president  observes,  that  resolution 
was  grounded  upon  the  minutes  given  in 
the  minutes  preceding  that  motion. 

That  it  is  true  he  had  at  the  desire  of 
Mr.  Brooke  given  his  consent  to  that  re- 
consideration of  Benfield*s  claims,  becausa 
that  private  property  was  concerned ;  but 
there  was  nothing  of  that  sort  in  the  reso- 
iution  of  the  17th  of  June. 

That  the  rescinding  of  it  now  would  in- 
erease  the  difficulties  ne  found  in  the  con« 
duct  of  the  business  of  the  Company  with 
the  nabob,  therefore  he  would  never  give 
his  consent  to  the  question  of  sir  R.  J^letchef 
being  put. 

That  he  has  always  known  the  business 
to  originate  with  the  president,  who  is  the 
properest  person  to  Lay  before  them  such 
subiects  as  may  require  their  consideration. 

That  making  resolutions  on^  day  and 
rescinding  them  the  next,  would  be  produc* 
tive  of  bM  consequences. 

The  majority  ot  the  Board  are  of  opinion 
it  ought  to  be  put ;  but  the  president  woul4 
not  put  the  question.] 

At  a  consultation,  July  9,  1770,  present  aa 
before. 

Minute  delivered  by  Mr.  Stratton,  sir  R. 
Fletcher,  Messrs.  Brooke,  Floyer,  Palmer^ 
Jourdap  and  Mackay ;  On  Thursday,  July  9, 
1776.  Statine  the  president  having  at  two 
former  consultations  asserted  a  right  to  ad- 
journ the  council  contrary  to  the  opinion 
of  the  majority,  and  refused  to  put  a  pre- 
vious question,  though  desired  by  them, 
and  asserted  a  resolution  of  the  majority  can- 
not be  carried  into  execution  without  his  con- 
currence ; 

Such  claims  are  incompatible  with  our  right 
as  members  of  this  government. 

We  know  the  government  is  vested  in  a 
minority  of  the  Board,  whether  the  president 
be  of  it  or  not  We  know  our  riehts,  but 
hope  never  to  be  driven  to  the  painml  neces- 
sity of  exerting  them.  It  will,  on  this  occasion, 
we  hope,  suffice  that  the  opinions  of  the  ma^ 
joritv  of  the  Bound  being  for  rescinding  the 
resolution  upon  the  second  motion  of  the 
president,  on  the  17th  of  June,  the  same  is 
le^ly,  though  not  in  the  usual  form  re- 
scmded. 

Colonel  Stuart*s  letter  to  the  commander  in 
chief,  entered  in  the  minutes  of  the  consulta^ 
tion  of  the  S5th,  and  ordered  to  lie  on  the 
table,  now  taken  into  consideration;  and 
after  a  debate  the  question  moved  for  the 


4 1 15]  19  GEORGE  III.         Pro$eedmgs  txgainst  Geofge  Sh^Uion        [illf 


appointment  of  col.  Stuart  to  the  ^nunand  at 
Uanjore ; 

Carried  in  the  affirmative  7  to  4. 
;S^.  Oen,  lie  had  been  appointed  to  the 
command  at  Vellore,  17th  ofMay. 

[Mr.  Dunning.  The  SOth  of  July,  sir  R. 
Fletcher  laid  before  the  Board  instructions 
for  col.  Stuart's  proceedings,  left  for  their 
ccmBideration,  page  352. 

In  the  mean  while  he  has  the  appoint- 
ment ;  and  particular  orders  are  sent  to  hold 
himself  in  readiness  to  go  to  Tanjore.] 
At  a  consultation,  July  12,  1776,  present 
governor  and'coUncil,  except  Mt.^RusscI  who 
was  indisposed. 

Letter  to  the  governor  and  council  of  fort 
^Villiam  in  Ben^  read ; 

[Mr,  Dtfnfftf^.  It  is  nothing  more  than 
a 'Simple  transmission  of  all  their  proceed- 
ings, for  sJl  the  time,  upon  all  the  subjects 
up  to  th^t  date,  which  produces  an  answer 
which  your  lordship  will  hear  by  and  by 
from  the  governor  afid  council  of  Bengal.] 
At  a  consultation,  Au^st  19, 177^,  present 
^  before  except  sir  R.  Fletcher. 

Page  356.  President  moves,  that  Mr.  Rxis- 
«el  proceed  to  Tanjore,  if  it  was  only  for  a  few 
flays. 

.'  The  president  declares  as  a  reason  why  he 
hoped  they  would  ii^ee  to  it,  that  he,  the 
{>resident,  had  ?t  a  former  consultation  de- 
clared he  would  never  give  his  consent  for 
colonel  Stuart  going  to  Tanjore,  until  the 
Board  should  iitcewise  resolve,  that  Mr.  Rus- 
sel  proceed  thither  according  to  his  appoint- 
ment. 

Carried  against  Mr.  RusseFB  proceeding  to 
Tanjore  6  to  4.  • 

The  president  havmg  Tepeatedly  recom- 
mended to  the  Board  the- propriety,  not  to  say 
necessity,  of  Mr.  RussePs  going  to  Tanjore; 
liow  he  declares,  he  never  will  give  his  sanc- 
tion to  any  instructions  to  colonel  Stuart  until 
that  measure  is  adopted. 

[Mr.  Dunning.  If  I  understand,  rights 
upon  th^  19th  of  Aueast,  the  presi&nt 
a  second  time  nooved  Mr.  RussePs  going  to 
Tanjore,  which  v^as  negatived,  and  the  pre- 
sident now  moves  it  for  the  third  time. 

Mr.  Floyer  then  desires  the  question 
may  be  put  to  the  Board,  to  take  into  ooo- 
sideration  the  above  draught  of  BMtnic- 
tions  to  colonel  Stuart 

The  president  declares  then,  for  the  rea» 
sons  he  has  before  Msigned,  he  will  not 
put  the  question.] 

The  president  having  refused  to  put  the 
question  proposed  by  Mr.  Floyer,  and  it  being 
a  matter  of  the  greatest  consequence  to  be 
determined,  whetiier  the  president  has  a  right 
to  refuse  putting  every  question  proposed : — 
And  Mr.  Stratton  moves  ^n  adjoiflnuaeat 
till  tcPmorrow,  to  consider  of  it. 

Att.  Gen,  Gg  to  the  consultation  of  the 
ftOth  of  July,  p.  360,  vol.  8. 

At  a  consultation,  present  lord  Pisot,  and  a 
full  Boards   Mr.  Jourdao  infonBa.wa  Board 


he  has  delivereda  minute  to  the  86eRtei3r,m 
which  there  is  a  motion  respecting  the  com- 
mittee <^  Circuit. 

Sol,  Gen,  We  only  read  that  to  shew  thtt 
a  motion  was  made  for  a  Committee  of  Cir- 
cuit to  proceed  upon  th^r  enquiry  ismne- 
Qiately. 

[Mi,  Dunning.  Which  was  canted.] 
Au,  Gen,  This  was  a  motion  made  by  Mr. 
Uourdan,  upon  the  39th  of  July,  when  he  is 
excused  from  going  on  the  Conimitlee  of  Cir- 
cuit, by  a  majority  of  8  to  3. 

At  a  consultation  held  on  the  29th,  Mr. 
Mackay  writes  a  letter  to  be  excused  frnn 
going  on  the  Committee  of  Circuit. 

President  moves  that  his  request  be  com- 
plied with,  which  was  resolved  unanimouslj. 
Court.  >VhatuseismadeofthatunaaiBMui 
excfuse  ? 

[Mr.  Dunning.  To  obviate  the  usethit  is 
meant  to  arise  firom  reading  that  par»- 
-graph,  I  must  observe  the  msinuatioi^  is 
this ;  that  the  Board  wish  to  get  rid  of  Mr. 
Russel,  and  the  president  chose  to  get  rid 
of  Mr.  Mackay,  that  he  might  have  a  vote 
left  at  the  time  we  were  like  to  lose  one. 

Mr.  Kenyan.  Oo  to  the  proceedings  on 
the  9th  of  August,  p.  419. 

At  a  consuUatiofn,  9th  of  Atlgust,  1776,  a 
minute  was  delivered  in  by  Mr.  Stratton, 
sir  R.  Fletcher,  Messrs.  Brooke,  Flojer, 
'  Palmer,  Jourdan,  and  Mackay,  p.  419. 
Stating  minutes  of  that  kind  could  oat 
be  written  at  the  Bocrd  where  divisions  no 
hi^,  and  such  doctrines  had  been  iield 
ibnh  as  they  had  heard. — 

Stating  tlie  president  had  complsined  the 
muority  put  a  negative  en  every  meMnt 
he  nad  recommenwd. 

That  they  were  always  ready  lo  supfnrt 
him  n^en  he  proposed  sueh  oKasuresis 
they  in  their  consaences  could  ^prove,^ 
thev  had  often  heard  from  tbe  pieslfeQt 
and.  Mr.  Daliyrapie,  of  the  ceuncii  bdog 
appointed  to  assist  the^president;  and  tfaej 
were  not  surprized  to  hear  the  pnsideBt 
speak  of  his  patticalar  respontibdity;  to 
shew  the  fbtility  of  this  opinion  they 
would  insert  the  following  standing  order 
ftem  Engiand,  dated  Jan.  9d»  1768  : 

^  Whatever  thfH  be  agreed  on bv theig 
jerity  shall  be  esteemed  the  order  pywb>^ 
each  one  is  to  act ;  and  acooidingly,  eveif 
individual,  even  the  dissenters  thonselfes, 
are  to  pertorm  Ih&r  parts  in  the  proscoitioo 
thereof;  and  in  so  doing  they  do  their 
duty,  and  are  aot  to  be  Uaoaed  Ar  ttt 
sveiit ' 

Entiyi  9th  of  March  170t,  read  of  the 
instnictions  to  Mr.  Pitt.  ^^ 

«  We  do  atrictiy^cigoin  that  all  oi!ryfl| 
bettansacled  in  oouncil,  and  oidcredaBl 
managed  as  the  maiority  of  the  council 
ahall  determine^  and  not  otiwrwise,  vfm 
any  pretence  whatsoever.' 

Mr.  I>>ajun^.  I  believe  thefe  was  aioe- 
tira.fMiewcd,  thai  tame  dqr^  ivriqMhil 


1117] 


andoih&rt^Jbr  d&poong  Lord  PigBt. 


A.  D..1779. 


[Ill* 


'Mi^.RuBselrto  Tanjore  again,  that-was  ne- 

gatli^. 

;^try  read,  page  403. 
Tho   President   says,   h^  should  have 
thought  Mr.  Russel  ought  to  go  to  TaDJbre, 
provided  he  could  be  wck  in  Ume  to  pro- 
ceed on  the  circuit,  and  moved  that  he 
'*  go  to  Tanjore  for  a  few  days. 

Ne^tived  by  a  majority  of  6  to  4^] 
AU.  Uen,  Your  lordship  will  observe  u^n 
tile  S9thof  JiUy>  Mr.  Mcu^kay  is  excused  gomg 
upon  the  Committee  of  Circuit.  That  re- 
quest had  three  objects;  one  was  the  Jaghire 
Duid  at  Madias,  which  was  near — ^another 
was  the  Northern  Cirears,  wluch  was  &rth^r 
off. 

"Upon  Uie  S9th,  lord  Pieot  moves  that  cir- 
ciftit  should  be  confined  to  the  Ja^bire  at  pre- 
•ent;  but  that  motion  was  negatived. 

[Mr.  Dunning,    Those  Jaghire  Lands, 
-  supposed  to  be  so  near  the  town  of  Madras, 
extend  to  a  distance  of  above  60  miles  fiom 
it.] 

fAtt,  Gen,  If  they  do  so,  it  will  aopear,  Mr. 

Mackay  is  pleased  to  intimate,  Xbey  must 

begin  with  the  Northern  Circars;   and.. for 

that  reason  they  must  begin  with  the  North- 

^  em   Circara;    and    for    that   reaeoQ    they 

'  must  begin  with  the  other  part  of  their  busi- 

[Mr.  Dunning,  They  may  be  taken  as 

read.] 

Att,  Gen.  Then,  upon  the  2d  of  August, 
lord  Pigpt  makes  a  motwn  that  two  gentle- 
men from  the  distant  settlements  may  be 
ordered  to  attend  the  Board;— that  is  nega- 
tivedv 

I  did  not  quotQ  them  in  their  order;  as 
they'  put  their  civil  consultatioBfr  In  one  book^ 
aad  their  military  in  anoUier. 

At  a  consultetion,  20th  August  1776,  Tues- 
day;  p.  357. 

Fresident  lays  befcire  the  Board  a  draueht 
of  a  let^  to  the  nyah  of  Tanjore,  which  is 
read  and  approved. 

The  letter  read, 

Desiring  the  rajah  to  give  Benfield  all  rea- 
aooable  assistance^  in  recovorin^  such  debts 
as  ap^^eat  to  be  justly  due  to  him  from  the 
inhabitants,  as  well  as  to  restore  to  him  the 
grain  of  last  year,  which  was  in  the  possessibn 
of  his  people, ,  and  said  to  be  forcimy  takdn 
from  tnem,  &c. ;  dated  SOIh  August^  177^, 
signed  Pigot  ^ 

Mr.  Mackay  delivers  in  the  Ic^lowing  mi- 
irate  the  same  day ; 

The  president  refusing  to  put  the  question 
moved  yesterday  by  Mr.  Floyer,  to  take  into 
considioration  the  instructions  to  colonel 
Stuart;  Mr.  BAackay  now  moves  that  the 
Board  proceed  upon  that  business. 

President  saio,  he  would  not  allow  the 
matter  to  be  agitated  at  the  board,  but  has.no 
objections. to  the  members  of  the  board  en- 
tering minutes  for  the  information  of  the 
Company. 

''Tlia  majority  ofibt  hoard  approving  of  the 


infitractioQs  to  ook>nel'  Stuart,  titey  are  en? 
tered, 

Mr.  Stratton  desired  the  orders  of  tiie  Com* 
pany  of  3d  Jan.  1678,  and  9th  of  March  1702 
to  be  read ;  which  were  read  accordingly.  ^ 

Extracts  of  an  Act  of  Parliament  read,  to 
shew  that  the  governor  general  and  cormcil 
shall  be  hound  and  concluded  by  the  opinion 
and  decision  of  a  majority. 

Mr.  Dalrymplc  gives  m  a  minute,  that  the 
Company's  records  shew  that  it  never  was  the 
idea  of  the  Company  in  1678,  that  a  majority 
of  the  council  was  the  board  withovit  ttxe  go- 
vernor. 

Cites  tfie  proceedings  of  14th  Oct.  1690;— 
Yate,  esq.  nresident,  and  governor,  with  five  of 
the  council :  shewing  the  Company  that  they 
had  not  the  powerofgovernment  without  the 
president :  said  order  of  9th  IV^ch  1702,  "was 
without  authority,  and  only  some  private 
order. 

5o/.  Gen,  Read  Mr.  Mfeickay'^motion,  p.  3$ff, 

Mr.  Mackay.  The  majority  of  the  board 
having  approved  the  instructions  for  colonel 
Stuart,  I  am  of  opinion  that  the  secretary 
should  have  them  wrote  fair,  and  a  letter  sent 
to  colonel  H&rpertO  deliver  up  Tanjore  to  him.. 

Messrs.  Jouraan,  Palmer,  Floyer,  Brooke, ' 
Stratton,  of  the  same  opinion. 

The  president  said,  he  would  not  put  his 
name  to.  them,  and  desired  the  members., 
would  not  proceed,  in  it.  That  without  his 
name  they  were  no  act  of  government,  aiKl 
men  exeouting  such  orders  would  be  hMe  to- 
diiBculties  which  he  wished  them  to  be  aa 
sensible  of  as  himself. 

Letter  to  col.  Harper  read,  ordering  him  t» 
deliver  the  commano  to  colonel  Stuart^ 

Mr.  Stratton  moved  the  letter  be  not  signed 
for  th^  present,  but  the  matter  d^fqixed.  tdk 
Thursday  morning  ll^o^clockp 

Adjourned  till  Thursday. 

AtaConsul^tioo,  ftSdAug.  1776,  present, 
as  beforctx^P.  368.  Minute  delivered  i^  by 
Messrs.  Stratton,  Brooke,  floyer^  Palmw^ 
Jourdan,  and  Mackay*. 

BiBciting,  that  the  president  had  refused  to 
put  th^  question  on  the  19th  of  .^kugyst^  fbr* 
taking  into  considetation  the  instructions  t» 
colonel  Stuart;  thoy  consider  that  as  being' 
inconsistent  with  the  service;  that  th^  a£ 
joumed  to  the  pext  day.  Then  the  president 
refused  it,  and  said  he  would  not,  unless  Mr. 
Kussel  likewise  went  to  Taiyore. 

We  dei^  that  the  concurrence  of  the  pre^-. 
dent  is  necessary  to  constitute  an  act  of  go^ 
vernment ;  and  we  declare  his  conduct  tQ  oe 
uncoMtitutional  and  illegal. 

That  the  president  is  bound,  as  much  as 
any  other  member,  to  subscribe  to  the  orders 
of  the  majority.  • 

We  deQlsune,  we  are  of  opinion,  that  in  case 
of  the  president's  refusal  to  put  a  question » 
proposed  by  any  member,  it  shall  be  txie  du^ 
of  the  secretary  to  put  that  question,  begin- 
'jfiing  first  with  the  youngest  member;  and  the 
duty  of  every  Inember  m  the  council  tp  an- 


r 


UID] 


19  GEORGE  ItL       .  Proeeeiings  ogamH  George  SiraUan       [1120 


t^er  Q^uch  question;  and  a  refusal  ia  a  breach 
of  the  standing  orders  of  the  Company. — 
Citing  VanMttart's  Narrative,  vol  «,  p.  133; 

vol.  3,  p.  137. 

The  president  then  says,  he  hopes  they 
will  let  the  matter  rest  till  the  pleasure  of  the 
Ck>mpany  can  be  known. 

.  Mmutes  were  then  given  in  by  the  members 
Jburdan,  Mackav,  and  Palmer,  for  carrying 
into  execution  the  resolution  of  the  coimcu 
without  delay.  Messrs.  Stratton  and  Brooke 
of  the  same  opinion ;  and  that  the  instruct 
lions  and  letter  be  signed  by  the  secretary,  bv 
order  of  council,  immediately,  and  sent  to  col. 
Stewart.  Mr.  Floyer  of  the  same  opinion. 
The  majority  then  delivered  in  a  joint  minute, 
to  call  on  the  president  to  direct  that  the 
secre^ry  should  sign  the  said  letters  to  col. 
Stuart  and  col.  Harper;  and  on  his  refusal  to 
give  such  directions,  we  the  majority  do  look 
upon  ourselves  as  authorized  to  order  him  to 
do  so.    Signed  by  Uie  whole  six. 

The  preddent,  on  perusine  the  minute,  de- 
clared he  would  not  give  sucn  orders ;  in  con- 
sequence of  which,  a  letter  was  wrote  to  Mr. 
Secretary  Sullivan,  directing  him  to  sign  the 
instructions  and  letter ;  dated  Fort  St.  George, 
^M  Aug.  1776 ;— (Signed)  Geo.  SxiiATTOir, 
Hen,  Brooke. 

As  soon  as  the  letter  was  signed  by  the 
above  two  names,  the  president  tooic  the 
same  into  his  possession,  and  said  he  would 
stop  the  proceeding,  and  delivered  in  the  fol- 
lowing paper :  *  I  charge  George  Stratton  and 
Hairy  Brooke,  esqrs.  of  being  guilty  of  an 
act  subversive  of  the  authority  of  govem- 
nient,  and  tending  to  introduce  anarchy,  in 
the  si^ng  orders  to  the  secretaij  to  give  in- 
structions to  colonel  Stuart,  which  were  not 
approved,  and  -  passed  by  the  president  and 
council.'  Mr.  Stratton  and  Brooke  said  be- 
fore the  president  delivered  in  the  paper, 
which  he  will  tiot  admit  to  be  a  charge,  that 
the  president  snatched  the  paper  out  of 
Brooke's  hand,  and  prevented  the  other  four 
members  from  ngning  it. 

'  The  president  recommends  Messrs.  Stratton 
and  Brooke,  being  thus  charged,  may  be  or- 
dered to  withdraw.  Jourdui  moves,  and 
Mackay  seconds  the  motion ;  the  board  ad- 
journ till  to-morrow  morning  10  o'clock. 

.  The  president  then  moved  a  resolution,  that 
Messrs.  Stratton  and  Brooke  be  suspended , 
till  the  Company's  pleasure  be  known.  On 
casting  up  the  votes,  they  appeared — ^four, 
Mackay,  Jourdan,  Palmer  and  Floyer,  a^nst 
it;  Stone,  Dalrymple,  Russell,  the  president, 
for  it.  Cairied  for  the  resolution  by  the  pre- 
udenVs  casting  vote. 

The  other  four  aigainst  the  resolution,  pro- 
test against  the  proceedings. 

The  president  then  adjourned  the  court  Ull 
eleven  the  next  day. 

dSd.  Conformably  to  the  resolution  of  this 
d^y's  consultation,  the  following  general  or- 
ders and  letter  were  wrote : 


Order  of  suspoision  of  Strattcm  and  Brooke 
from  the  Company's  service.  Letter  to  Mr. 
Stratton  informing  .of  the  same.  Ditto  to 
Brooke.  All  signed  by  Mr.  Secretaiy  Sul- 
livan. 

At  a  Consultation,  S3d  Aug.  1776,  p.  877. 
Present,  lord  Pigot,  Messrs.  Russel,  Dalryn^ 
pie,  Stone,  Lathom.  The  minutes  of  the  last 
consultation  read  and  approved. 

Mr.  Lathom  takes  his  seat  at  the  board. 

The  secretary  having,  in  consequence  of  tha 
president's  orders,  issued  a  summons  to  Mr. 
Russel,  sir  R.  Fletcher,  Messrs.  Dalrymple, 
Floyer,  Stone,  Palfner,  Lathom^  Jourdan,  sod 
Mackay,  desiring  their  attendance  in  council 
this  morning. 

The  president  acquaints  the  board,  that 
Mr.  Bromley,  a  notary  public,  had  put  in  bis 
hands,  half  an  hour  ago,  a  paper  which  he  de- 
clared to  be  a  protest 

To  the  right  hon.  lord  Pigot,  president,  &c. 
C.  Russel,  A.  Didrymple,  J.  M.  Stone,  esqn. 
Council  at  Fort  St.  Georee. 

Protest  read,  dated  Madras,  83d  AugittI, 
1776.  Siened  Stratton,  Fletcher,  Brooke, 
Floyer,  Pauner,  Jourdan,  Mackay,  insisting, 
they  the  m^orit^  consider  themselves  as  the  ^ 
legal  representatives  of  the  Company  under 
this  presidency. 

That  the  summons  for  them  to  attend  wis 
evidently  illegal,  the  names  of  Stratton  and 
Brooke  being  omitted ;  therefore  they  would 
not  attend.— P.  380.  Messrs.  Stone,  Daliym- 
ple,  andJR,ussel,  deliver  in  a  ioint  minute,  de- 
claring that  they  do  not  think  lord  Pigst 
snatched  the  paper  from  Mr.  Brooke  at  yes^ 
day's  council,  as  recorded  by  Messrs.  Strattoa 
and  Brooke. 

[At  a  ConsulUtion,  Friday  afternoon,  SSd 

Aug.  1776,  page  381 .    Present,  lord  Pigo^ 

governor,  &c.  Messrs.  Russell,  Daliympki 
tone,  and  Lathom. 

The  preadent  acquaints  them  he  had  re- 
ceived from  Bromley,  a  notary  miUic,  a 
copy  of  a  protest  simed  by  Mr.  Stratton, 
sir  R.  Fletcher,  Messrs.  Brooke,  Flow, 
Palmer,  Jourdan,  and  Mackay,  and  that 
the  officer  of  the  main  guard  and  the  othos 
in  nrrison,  had  receiv^  similar  copitt. 

The  two  secretaries,  Oakelev  and  &illi- 
van,  acquunted  his  lordship  they  had  re- 
ceived the  same. 

It  appears,  air  Edward  Hughes  and  opt 
Webb,  and  others  belonging  to  the  ships, 

had  the  same. 

Bromley  being  sent  for,  said  he  bad  re- 
ceived the  orders  at  the  house  of  sir  B. 
Fletcher,  from  the  seven  who  signed  it 

The  Baard  of  opinion,  considering  what 
the  others  had  done,  thcw  could  not  detey, 
consistent  with  their  duty,  a»spcndi^ 
Floyer,  Palmer,  Jourdan  and  Mackay,  inwi 
the  Company's  service,  till  the  Companya 
pleasure  be  known.  Su-R.  Fletcher  being  a 
military  officer,  it  is  resolved,  that  he  be  im- 
mediately ordered  into  airest,  and  brougM 
to  a  court  martiali  for  diculating  leiun 


usii 


tind  cthet9fjbr  deposing  Lord  PigoU 


A.  D.  1779. 


[118* 


tending  to  exdU  waA  cause  mutiny  and,  de- 
sertion among  the  troops  in  thir  garrison, 
and  thst  colonel  Stuart  take  the  command. 

The  Board  are  of  opinion,  from  the  stand- 
ing orden  and  regulations  of  the  Company, 
ihe  affairs  of  the  ^vemment  can  only  be 
transacted  in  council,  and  that  council  can- 
ned be  formed  without  the  president. 

Cite  the  orders  of  9th  of  March,  1709. 
and  the  commission  of  government  to  lord 
F^0)l  and  the  council. 
"^  Th^  Tote  a  letter  of  suspension  be  sent 
to  Messrs  Floyer,  Palmer,  Jourdan,  and 
jtf  ackay,  which  was  sent  accordingly ;  dated 
Fort  8t.  George,  23d  Aug.  \n6. 

An  order,  slsned  hy  the  secretary,  for 

Jutting  sir  E.  Fletchet  under  arrest,  same 
ate.] 

At  a  Cpnsullation,  on  Friday  Inorning,  98d 
Aug.  1770.  Present,  Mr,  Stratton,  as  presi- 
dent. Sir  ft,  Fletcher,  Mr.  Brooke^C.  Floyer,  A. 
Palmer,  F. Jourdan,  G.  Mackay,  esqrs.  Agreed 
by  us  seven  members,  constituting  a  majority 
or  the  council  of  Fort  St.  George,  and  its  de- 
pendcincies,  that  the  following  letter  of  pro- 
test be  immediately  sent  to  lord  Pigot  and  to 
Messrs.  Russel,  Dalrymple,  and  Stone,  three 
other  members  of  the  council  at  this  presi- 
dency. 

.  The  protest  read :— P.  386 :  Madras,  33d 
AiJ«.  17 76,  Mr.  Bromley,  the  notary,  sent  for, 
ancTordered  to^liver  tlie  letter  of  protest  to 
lord  Pigot,  &c. 

letter  sent  by  them  to  Warren  Hastings,  esq. 
epvemor,  &c.  and  council  in  Bengal,  accusing 
unnd  Pigot,  and  such  of  the  council  as  were  of 
his  opinion,  with  acting  illegally,  and  defending 
their  own  conduct^  and  enclosing  the  protest. 

At  a  Consultation,  23d  Aug.  X776.  Pre- 
sent, George  Stratton,  e^.  sir  R.  Fletcher, 
H.  Brooke,  C.  Flover,  A.  Palmer,  F.  Jourdan, 
and  G.  Mackay,  raday  evening,  23d  Aug. 

Resolution,  That  the  fort  awl  garrison  be 
in  our  hands,  and  under  our  command,  as  the 
legal  representatives  of  the  East  India  Com- 
pany. We  think  it  our  duty  to  arrest  the  per- 
son of  lord  Pigot ;  for  which  purpose  we  ap- 
point colonel  Stuart,  during  the  indisposition 
of  sir  Kl  Fletcher,  to  command  the  army  and 
garrison  of  Fort  St.  George.  They  farther  or- 
dered and  directed,  if  he  saw  it  necessary,  or 
that  resistance  to  ^eir  orders  be  made,  to  ar- 
rest lord  Pigot,  or  any  other  obstructing  them, 
aad  requite  all  the  Company's  servants  to 
g^ve  him  assistance. 

A  letter  read,  sent  to  the  governor  and 
council  at  Bengal,  dated  24th  August,  1776. 
In  which  they  say,  amongst  other  tnin^',  they 
do  not  admit  of  any  letter  or  act  of  lord  Pigot 
and  his  associates  as  valid;  and  two  other 
letters  to  military  officers  to  obey  none  but 
them. 

Court,  Does  it  appear  at  all  which  was 
firat?  Lord  Pigot,  and  the  council  with  him, 
suspending  the  four  counsellors,  and  ordering 
M-   EdbiiH  FJeicher  in  istest?  or  tha.  majo- 

VOL.  XXI. 


rity  of  )he  seven  giving  orders  to  colonel 
Stuart  to  arrest  lord  Fieot  ? 

Aitomejf  General%  My  brd ;  the  letter  to 
colonel  Stuart  is  dated  8  o'clock,  p.  m.  or  in 
the  afternoon ;  and  it  arises  upon  a  fact  the 
president  relates  to  have  come  to  his  know- 
ledge while* at  dinner.  The  meeting  of  the 
council  of  the  majority  in  that  evening  again, 
is  subsequent  to  the  meeting  of  the  council 
that  has  just  been  read ;  but  the  orders'  to 
colonel  Stuart  are  of  a  date  prior. 

Mr.  Dunittfi^.    My  lord;     it   depends 

altogether  upon  the  wxuracy  of  the  clocks, 

whicn  was  first  or  last. 

AtL  Oen.    They  send  a  proieist  by  Brom«; 

le^ }   he  took  the  order  at  3  p.  m. ;  lord 

Pigot  sends  an  order  for  the  council  to  meet^ 

mi  goes  to  dihner;  in  the  afternoon  he  holds 

2^  council,  and  gives  ah  account  of  Bromley 

Comins.     In  the  evening  again,  the  other 

council  Is  h^d  by  the  seven ;  they,  enter, 

first  their  own  letter  to  Stuart,  and   Uiea 

take  notice  of  what  happened  in  lord  Pigot's 

council. 

Mr.  Dunning,  The  terms  aflemoon  and 
evening  are  not  vety  intelligible,  till  one 
kdo^s  the  hour  of  dinner  at  Bengal  or 
Madras;  the  dinner  time  about  Bengal  is 
at  one  or  two  o'clock,  and  the  aAernoon  or 
3  Q^clock  are  dnderstood  as  much  about  the 
same  thin^.  After  dinner  means  after- 
noon, that  IS  dtill  more  correct  than  I  have 
occasion  to  contend  for :  in  shprt,  the  pro- 
ceedings were  muck  about  the  same  time ; 
which  was  first,  and  which  last,  is  past  an^ 
ingenuity  in  the  world  to  tell;  your  lord- 
ship will  tfldce  the  facts. 
Couri,    What  sre  the  three  expressions } 

Mr.  Dunning,  My  lord ;  one  is  atlen- 
noon,  the  next  Friday  evenings  and  the 
dther  3  o'clock,  p.  m. 

JU,  Gen,  One  is  said  to  be  Friday  evenh 
ing  at  the  beginning,  and  it  dates  the  order 
to  Col.  Stuart  at  3  o'clock,  p.  m. 

Court.    It  is   plain  lord    Pigot's  council 
knew  nothing  of  tne  orders  to  arrest  him. 
Mr.  Dunning,    Upon  the  other  hand  id 
is  equally  apparent,  the  people  upon  the 
other  side  knew  as  little  of  the  orders  to 
arrest   sir   Robert   Fletcher.     The  other 
letter  takes  no  notice  of  the  orders,  for  sus- 
pending and  arresting  sir  Robert  Fletcher. 
Court,     The  letter  of  the  24th  states  it 
particularly;   the  letter  of  the  next  day  to 
Bengal. 

Mr.  Dunning,  I  presumed  your  lord- 
ship was  alluding  to  the  two  instruments, 
one  upon  their  consultation,  the  other  upon 
our  consultation  in  the  afternoon. 
Lord  Manifteid.  1  speak  of  the  fact  inde- 
pendent of  those  instruments. 

Mr.  DunniHg.  I  see  in  our  letter  for 
arresting  loid  Pigot  >re  take  no  notice  of 
the  suspension  of  the  five  members,  or  the 
order  for  arresting  sir  Robert  Fletcher  ; 

That  order  had  not  been  executed ;  tipo^ 
the  other  hsmd,  they  took  no  notice  of  this 
4C 


112S] 


19  GEORGE  III.         Praceedingf  against  George  SiraHoH        \im 


.  order  for  the  trrest  of  lord  Pigot,  therefore  i 
your  lordship  sees  those  two  transactions  | 
may  be  perfectly  coeval  for  any  thing  that 
arises  upon  the  face  of  them. 
JH.  Gcfi.    It  b  taken  notice  of  in  their 
letter,  date4  the  84thy  to  the  epveraor  and 
ebuncil  at  Bengal,  and  entered  in  their  pro- 
ceedings of  the  23rd  of  August. 
Astoci^e,    So  it  is. 

Court,  That  might  be  sent  the  next  day. 
Ait,  Gen,  Your  lordship  will  find  in  uie 
nest  consultation,  on  the  94th,  no  notice  is 
taken  of  it.  It  is  a  letter  dated  S4th,  but 
written  the  93rd,  and  approved  in  the  meet- 
ing on  the  i23rd. 

Ccurt  See  if  it  is  so,  that  shews  they 
knew  this  on  the  Sdrd. 

Jisociate,  The  letter  is  dated  Uth,  but 
entered  in  the  proceeding  on  the  33rd. 

Mr.  Dunntng,    I  will  save  your  lordship 
the  trouble  of  proving  that  proposition, 
the  fact  done  proves  it  sufficiently.    In  the 
evening  the  orders  were  executed,  and  sir 
Robert  Fletcher  actually  put  under  arrest 
on  the  38rd  at  night. 
Court,    That  is  very  material. 
Saturday  ni^ht,  half  past  9,  Aug.  94, 1776. 
At  a  consultation,  present  Greo.  Stratton,  esq. 
president,  sir   R.  Fletcher,  H.  Brooke,  C. 
Floyer,  A.  Palmer,  F.  Jouraan,  G.  Mackay. 
Entry  of  their  proceedings. 

That  colonel  Stuart  had  reported  to  them, 
in  consequence  of  their  orders,  ne  had  arrested 
loiifl  Pigot;  that  he  was  at  the  Mount  in 
arrest. 

That  all  the  military  officers  had  declared 
their  resolution  to  obey  their  orders. 

That  they  had  called  all  the  military  .of- 
£cer8  together,  and  stated  to  tiiem  an  account 
of  the  ntoceedings  that  had  passed  between 
themselves  and  lord  Pigot  with  the  other 
members  of  the  council;  and  their  reasons 
lor  putting  his  lordship  under  arrest.  The 
Entiy  signed  by  them  all,  p.  393. 

Colonel  Stuart  represented  to  the  board 
Mr.  Russel,  at  the  main^goard  then  under 
Arms,  was  inviting  the  troops  to  make  resist- 
ance to  government,  &c. 

Mr.  Russel  brought  before  th%  board,  in- 
formed he  was  suspended. 
'  Letter  to  major  Home  at  the  Mount. 
It  having  been  deemed  necessary  to  arrest 
lord  Pigot,  he  has  been  seiit  to  the  Mount, 
where  you  will  be  pleased  to  keep  him 
secured,  &c. 

yVe  have  this  evening  taken  charge  of  the 
government,  with  the  concurrence  of  the 
whole  garrison.  DsAed  9plh  Aug.  1776, 
signed  Stratton,  &c. 

General  Order  read. 
By  Geo.  Stratton,  esq.  president,  H.  Brooke, 
sir  R.  Fletcher,  &c.     Stating,  they  had  ar- 
rested lord  Pigot,  and  suspended  the  other 
three  gentlemen : 

T^at  Geo.  Stratton,  esq.  was  appointed 
president,  and  is  to  be  obeyed  as  such.  Dated 
Mh  Aug.  1776)^10  p,  n. 


LetteiT  of  suspenapn  sent  to  Claud  Ruaad, 
esq.  same  date,  signed  Btratton,  Palmer, 
Brooke^  Jourdan ;  the  same  to  Mr.  DabToi- 
ple ;  the  same  to  Mr.  Stone. 

Ordered,  letters  be  dispatched  U>  the  sub- 
ordinate  factories,  informing  them  of  ths 
general  orders. 

Attendance  of  colonel  Stuart  required  it 
the  board,  where  he  delivned  in  a  copj  of 
the  orders  bsued  by  him  to  major  Home : 

Stating,  in  conseauence  of  the  povds 
vested  in  him,  he  had  secured  the  persoD  of 
lord  Pigot,  and  put  him  under  the  care  of 
captain  JLjrsaght,  to  be  delivered  to  nujor 
Home.  To  order  major  Home  to  take  lord 
Pi^t  into  his  charge  and  custody,  till  he  le* 
ceive  ^rther  orders  from  the  legal  cifil  go- 
vernment in  and  over  the  presidency  of  Bnt 
Saint  George,  &c. 

To  order  his  lordship  be  always  kept  io 
view  of  him,  or  an  omcer  under  his  com- 
mand ;  not  permitted  to  carry  arms,  nor  GQ^ 
respond  or  converse  upon  matters  which  any 
way  concern  civil  or  mititary  business;  let* 
ters  to  be  stopped|  &c. 

To  treat  lorn  Pigot  with  every  mark  of  at> 
tention  and  respect  sniied  to  the  etigencj 
ofaffiurs. 

His  lordships^  servants  to  be  permitted  Io 
attend  him ;  the  number  limited.  These  or- 
ders, nothing  but  an  order  of  government  is 
to  supersede.  Dated  84th  August,  signed 
James  Stuarty  bv  order  of  eovemment  adiqg 
commander  of  the  forces,  £c.  under  the  ^ 
sidency  of  Fort  Saint  George. 

To  major  Home — ^to  be  delivered  to  a^ 
tain  Lysaght,  who  is  ordered  to  take  an  ac- 
knowledsnient  in  writine  from  major  Hon^ 
that  he  has  received  lord  Pigot. 

Every  thing  being  in  tranquillity  in  the 
garrison,  and  it  being  midnight,  it  is  agreed 
to  adjourn  till  to  morrow  6  o'clock,  in  the 
mornine. 

Att,  Oen,  Your  lordship  observes  in  tbk 
consulUtion  all  that  related  to  Mr.  ChxA 
Russel  was  known  to  them ;  and  the  letter 
is  sent  to  major  Home,  a  common  warrant 
to  detain  in  his  custodv  lord  Pigot,  who  had 
been  put  in  his  custody  by  colonel  Stuart 
— ^Now  eo  on  ^  in  the  next  consultatkm  ton 
will  fina  all  the  alarms  were  known,  and  it 
produced  no  other  than  that  conunon  warrenL 

At  a  consultation  held  on  Sunday  morning 
6  o'clock,  the  25th  of  August,  fbl.  407.     . 

Resolved,  that  the  following  letter  be  writ- 
ten and  dispatched  to  m^jor  Home,  com- 
mandins  the  artillery  at  the  Mount : 

Sir,  Mr.  Claud  Russel  having  kistn^ 
made  attempts  to  get  the  main-guard  unikr 
arms ;  and,  as  he  and  his  associaies  may  en- 
deavour to  send  letters  to  our  out  garrison^ 
we  request  you  would  endeavour  to  prevent 
their  conveying  papers  to  lord  Pigot  s  band 
to  be  signed  by  nim,  or  their  hoidme  correi- 
pondence  with  him  whilst  be  is  uncTer  yoiv 
charge,  unless  in  your  presence. 

As  your  tast  resource  ia  toy  attempt  ti 


ri25] 


and  atkerifjbr  deposing  Lord  PigoL 


A.  D.  1779. 


[1126 


iiescue  lord  Piget,  lus  life  must  answer  for  it, 
and  this  you  are  to  signify  to  him.  Dated 
Fort  Saint  George ;  signed  Stratton  and  coun^ 
cily  «5th  Auffust  1776.-*-P.  S.-  The  nabob  has 
been  applied  to  for  a  party  of  horse  to  be  put 
under  your  command,  and  they  are  for  the 
purpose  of  conveying  quick  intelligence  to 
ns^  and  for  such  other  purposes  as  you  shall 
think  necessary;  we  trust  to  your  making 
such  a  disposition  of  the  force  under  your 
command  as  to  prevent  the  possibility  of  a 
surpnse,  or  the  success  of  any  attempt  that 
may  be  made  by  lord  Pigot  and  his  associ- 
ates.—Signed,  Stratton,  Ike, 

[Mr.  Dunning.    Let  him  &>  to  the  ori- 

S'nal  papers  for  those  things.  J 
[r.  SmUh,    Sir,  they  are  m  your  pos- 
session. 

[Mr.  Dunning.     My  instructions   are, 

they  are  not  here.]  ' 

Att.  Gen.  The  counsel  have  all  seen  these 
letters  and  know  they  are  right 

SoLGen.  Go  to  the  consultation  on  the 
S7th  of  August 

At  a  consultation  27th  Aug.  1776.  Pre- 
sent Geo.  Stratton,  esq,  eovemor,  "bresident, 
H.  Brooke,  sir  R.  Fletcher,  C.  Floyer,A. 
Palmer,  F.  Jourdan,  G.  Mackay:  the  presi- 
dent acquainted  the  board  he  had  this  morn- 
ing received  intelligence  from  colonel  Stuart, 
^at  he  had  reason  to  apprehend  there  was 

fpme  tampering  with  the  troops  at  the  Mount, 
y  persons  in  the  interest  of  lord  Pigot,  and 
his  associates. 

^  The  board,  after  the  late  attempt  of  Mr. 
Claud  Russel,  and  the  apprehensions  ex- 
pressed by  colonel  Stuart,  trunk  lord  Pigot's 
re^dence  at  the  Moimt  may  furnish  the  ready 
means  of  creatine  dlHurbances.— 7The  fortress 
of  Chingleput,  about  56  miles  from  Fort  St. 
GeoTse,  appearing  in  every  respect  a  more 
eligible  place  for  lord  Pigot's  residence,  they 
ace .  of  opinion  unanimously  to  remove  bim 
firom  the  Mount  to  Chingleput,  as  soon  us 
possible. 

Resolved  the  following  letters  are  now 
wrote; 

Letter  to  colonel  Stuart,  mentioning  the 
Cute  attempt  of  Mr.  Russel,  and  the  violent 
disposition  of  the  rest  of  lord  Pigot's  associates, 
tibe  tampering  with  the  military.  *'  They  em> 
^  power  him  to  take  any  farther  measures  he 
^  may  Judze  necessary  for,  the  securitv  of  his 
^  loraship^  persou ;  and  desire  he  wul  j;uard 
^  against  attempts  to  carry  him  off.''  Dated 
krtfi  August,  1776. 

(Signed)        Stratton,  &c. 

{setter  to  major  Uuoke,  appointing  him  to 
4he  command  at  Chingleput,  and  ordering  him 
^  repair  thither  ana  take  the  command  as 
soon  as  possible. 

Letter  ta  captain  Mackerell,  to  deliver  up 

le  charge  of  the  fort  to  miyor  Cooke. 

Court.  H  it  supjposed  they  meant  to  do  anv 
^liinff  to  him  at  Chingleput  ?  I  aiean  rc^aitl- 
* — ms  life. 

f.  Cren,  Certafaily  not  fit  Chingleput. 


Court.  But  in  going  to  it  ?    . 

Ati.  Gen.  I  do  suppose  the  oommuniciition 
intended  by  these  letters  had  a  reference  to  a 
disturbance  that  mieht  have  arisen  by  taking-' 
away  lord  Pigot  in  me  night. 

Letter  to  Miyor  Home,  p.  4dS.  That  they 
had  intercepted  letters,  from  which  thev 
thought  there  was  atk  intention  to  tamper  with 
the  soldiers  of  the  garrison,  &c  in  favour  of 
lord  Pigot;  therefore  thev  had  come  to  a  reso- 
lution^ of  removing  his  lordship  to  a  place  of 
more  safety  without  delay,  at  the  same  time 
with  every  attention  to  lord  Pigot*s  health  and 
convenience. 

That  they  had  empowered  colonel  Stuart  to 
take  the  measures  he  thought  proper  for  coo* 
veying  his  lordship  in  safety  ^  to  the  place  of 
his  destination/' 

That  the  adjutant  general  will  be  employed 
to  receive  his  lordship  from  the  nuyor  thia 
nigh^  as  soon  as  it  can  be  done  without  alarm- 
ing his  lordshifr's  family. 

The  disposition  left  in  the  power  of  col. 
Stuart.    Dated  87th  August,  1776. 

PS.  We  give  you  this  early  notice  to  prepare 
for  what  is  to  liappen  this  nighty  but  you  are 
not  to  divulge  it^to  any  one. 

P.  436.  At  a  Board  held  Wednesday,  S8th 
August,  Stratton,  president,  &c. 

Letter  from  sir  Edward  Hughes,  dated 
Mount,  la  atnoon ;  a7th  of  Aujgust,  1776. 

To  George  Stratton,  esq.  president  and  go- 
vernor, &c.  Council  of  Fort  St  George. 

To  inform  them^that  lord  Pigot  had  claittied 
the  protection  of  the  king's  flag.  Und  to  re- 
quire Uiat  maijor  Home  be  ordered  to  give  his 
lordsliip  safe  conduct  to  my  ship,  and  that  he 
waits  there  for  their  orders  to  arrive,  and  de- 
sires they  may  be  sent  to  major  Home  with  all 
speed. 

In  consequence  of  the  resolution  of  yester* 
day,  tiie  board  state,  general  orders  had  been 
issued  empowering  lieutenant  colonel  Biding* 
toun  to  remove  his  lordship  to  Chii^leput,  a 
very  healthy  place ;  but  as  sir  EdwardHi^bes 
made  a  request  that  his  lordship  remain  at^ 
the  Mount,  th^  board  consent  to  it  for  the 

present 

Sent  a  letter  to  major  Home,  dated  d&th  of 
AuKust,  wiUi  a  letter  for  lord  Pigot 

Letter  to  Lord  Pigot ; 

Stating — ^they  are  sorry  such  a  notion  should 
have  prevail^  in  his  mind  that  he  waa  to 
have  been  removed  to  Gingee ;  and  assuring 
him  no  such  idea  hid,  or  ever  could  occur  ^to 
them. 

That  they  had  resolved  to  make  his  lordship 
an  offer  ,of  removing  to  any  settlement  upon 
the  coast  where  there  was  a  chief  and  council, 
if  he  would  pledge  his  honour  to  remain  quiet 
within  it,  until  the  Company's  pleasure  be 
known. 

If  his  lordship  consented,  they  would  order 
the  best  house  in  the  settlement  to  be  pre- 
pared for  him,  and  every  necessary  to  be  iinw 
nished  at  the  Company's  expence;  or  if  he 
preferred  embarking  for  Europe  in  mat  of  the 


1137] 


19  GEORGE  III.         Proctedings  dgaifUt  George  Straihn        [Ilfl 


Company's  ships,  they  would  order  eveiy  Ur  \ 
cominodHikiQ,  &c. 

Letter  from  sir  £dw.  Hughes  to  m^or  Home 
ready  dated  99  August. 

That,  as  he  was  obliged  lo  go  to  the  fort 
ifnuicdiately,  he  recpiested  mcyor  Home  would 
gi\'e  his  word  of  honour  that  he  would  not  ghre 
up  the  parson  of  k>rd  Pisot  till  his  return. 

Cauri,  Are  all  those  letters  read  tending  to 
ill  usage  or  ill  d^gns  upon  him  in  his  con- 
Snement?  these  letters  from  sir  Edwakl 
Hughes  to  Mr.  Home  can  be  nothing  to  the 
purpose. 

Ait.  Gen.  My  lord,  there  is  a  gap  in  tlie 
business  which  mtet  be  supplied  by  the  piaole 
evidence.  Your  lordehip  sees  the  meaning  of 
this  letter  to  major  Home ;  there  w«b  an  at- 
tempt made  to  remove  lord  Pigot  by  force ; 
that  happened  upon  the  97th  at  night ;  of  that 
your  lordship  has  had  no  accouni;  we  must 
examine  to  it  Upon  the  t8th,  lord  Pigot 
claimed  the  protection  of  the  king's  fiag» 

JJarmed  at  what. had  happened  the  mght  be- 
bre;  in  consequence  of  which  sir  Edward 
Hug^ies  came  to  them, — he  wsites  to  them  on 
iAtt  iddth,  and  he  writes  to  Bia|or  Home  what 
we  read,  on  the  29th ;  and  what  we  are  going 
to  read  now,  is  what  passed  between  sir  Edward 
Hughes  and  the  board  when  he  desired  to 
feke  k)rd  Pigpt  awar  upon  this  occasion. 
[Mr.  Dunning.  Please  to  read  the  answer 
sent  by  miyor  Hor^e,  importing  he  had 
complied  with  it] 
M't.  Gen.  If  other  things  are  thrown  ia  be- 


The  public  eoBduot  of  liM  pfgdl^ky  tets 
already  published,  having  sub? eiM  tbs  cbft* 
stituti<m  of  the  Company,  ^od  tending  la  m^ 
duce  anarchy,  &c.  The  nectsoi^  of  piiblD 
afikirs  justifies  the  steps  takeH  lo  wfinat  tin 
farther  progress  of  kml  PigoVs  aitstmrjr  mk 
illegal  proceedings ;  nis  |oc>Mup's  viohiil 
temper  led  them  to  ptf  t  such  a  leitnliA  u{)pt 
his  person ;  and  whoever  claims  an  anthontl 
to  give  proteetioft  t#  bis  lonbUpyin^pindnl 
of  them,  the  president,  &c.  must  give  isM* 
fiictory  assurances,  they  wiil  be  anaveisWs 
thai  the  public  peace  of  the  CanHrtia  will  Ml 
thereby  be  disturbed. 

Then  they  put  several  questions  to  sir  £dw. 
HushesL.  to  the  same  purport        / 

Will  he  be  answerable  to  them  for  tfad  oqd- 
seauences  pf  lord  Pigot^s  going  on  bosid  the 
Salisbury  with  him  i 

Sir  Edward  Hughes  informs  the  board  he 
cannot  give  an  answer  to  apy  of  these  ques- 
tions, until  he  receives  the  board's  reply  to  the 
letter  on  which  thes^  qiieries  ar^  miinded;  if 
they  accoropaliy  their  reply  with  tnese  qu(^es 
or  aay  other  papers,  he  wiH'take  them  ffltB 
consideration,  kc.  Sir  Edwanf  then  iritl^ 
drew. 

Resolved  to  send  a  letto*  to  sir  £.  Hqsbes; 

Letter  sent,  dated  4th  Sept  177(S  stat' 
they  had  received  his  letters  of  the  97tb 


^ween  these  letters  it  removes  the  effect.  i  ^^  j^-     ^^ 

[Mr.  Dunning   What  I  ^1  for  now^  is        ^hen  stkting  what  they  had  bcfwe  M 

the  answer  sent  by  major  Home  importing    ^-      -  -^  ^    .  .-a 

he  had  assented  to  it ;  this  b  callea  an  in- 
terruption :  I  don't  conceive  I  am  liable  to 

reproach  for  having  interrupted.     When 

they  hav^  read  this,  they  may  read  the  rest 
.  of  the  letters  that  passed  in  all  the  course 
•  oftheir  lives  if  they  please.  ^ 

JLetter  from  miyor  Home  to  the  Board 

read,  acquainting  them  of  sir  Edward 
.  Hughes's  letter  to  him  and  his  answer; 

that  he  very  readily  me  him  his  word  of 

honour  as  sir  Edward  desired.] 

At  a  consultation,  Tuesday,  the  3td  of  Sep- 
tember, present  as  before. — Minute. 

Before  we  take  sir  Edward  Hughes's  letter 
of  the  38th  of  August  under  consideraUon, 
agreed  that  the  president  requests  his  atten- 
dance at  this  board  to  morrow  morning ;  that 
he  may  inform  us  what  security  he  will  give 
this  government  for  the  preservation  of  the 
public  peace,  and  that  the  tranqiullity  of  the 
ooast  is  not  endangered  byotu:  consenting  lo 
the  removal  of  lora  Pigot  from  under  ouiImi- 
tfaority. 

At  a  Consultation  held  the  4th  of  Septeiaber, 
1776. — Present  as  l)efore. 
'  Sir  Edward  Hughes  altendins,  is  inftroduced 
into  the  council  oy  the  presiwnt  and  bemg 
seated,  the  affidayite  of  lieut  coL  Eidittglowi, 
and  Serjeant  ShaW|  aiid  tha  commissMn  of  go- 
vsnuMttt  read. 


_    consequence  ot  tnat  requ^rmg 

be  ordered  to  give  his  Icraship  sale  podocf 


him  in  councn  room — say  they  cannot  |ir| 
an  answer  to  his  letter  till  he  will  inf&4 
them  what  security  he  will  aive,  that  4< 
tranquillity  of  the  council  be  ndt  distatbed  tt 
the  removal  of  lord  Pigot  from  under  vm 
authority. 

At  a  consultation,  Friday,  6tb  Segt  V7% 
present  as  before.  . 

Read  a  letter  from  sir  £.  Hudbe^  dM 
Salisbunr,  m  Madras*  Road,  dth  Sept.  nro; 
stoting,  he  had  received  their  letter  ^'^  JJJ*^ 
day's  date  in  answer  to  his  Qi  the  Wth  « 
August.  . 

That  the  requisition  of  a  safe  condud  gj 
the  noble  lord  to  his  ship,  being  made  in  W 
name  of  the  Kinj;,-Hao  other  answer  ctn  ^ 
given  by  him,  as  being  intrusted  with  the  fij 
nour  and  dignity  of  his  majesty's  ^*&  *? .  |? 
requisition,  than  repeating  what  he  w^'JJ 
fore  required  in  the  Ring^s  name^  that  ib«F 
Home  be  ordered  to  give  terd  Pigot ^afcwOj 
duct  to  this  ship,  his  tordship  havu^  ^^hS 
his  claim  of  protectipi|  tfim  his  ta^Wl 

Letter  read  ia  0lmM  U  jk  »•  *^vj 
Repetitkm  of  %liat  th^  had  »f^..*"5l 
and  add,  Since  you  a»ef  ptoisad  to  dwh^  ■ 

ing  to  US  asy  stcurity  wfca*arer  »  ?2I 
quencc  of  that  request;  we  cannot, owj 
entiy  vWh  the  iiBfiM  tWi  t«^ 


U2Sf] 


(Hid  otkertfjitr  ilef»H«g  Lord  Pigot. 


A.  D.  1779. 


[11S6 


tonply  ^wkh  tke  seguisttion  jDubave  again 
repeated,  that  major  Home,  &c. 
Dated,  6th  Sept.  1776,     Signed  Stratton,  &c. 
.  At  aconsukation,  9th  Sept.  1776. 
Letter  from  sir  £.  Hughes,  dated  7th  Sept. 

ana. 

I  have  just  now  received  your  letter  of  yea- 
terday;  and  confess  I  should  have  been 
disappointed  to  have  been  told  that  you  had 
any  proofs  before  vou,  that  his  majesty  had 
empowered  any  of  his  oi&cers  to  require  the 
removal  of  any  servant  of  the  Company  In  a. 
similar  situation  with  lord  Pigot,  from  under 
the  authority  of  the  Gooipany^s  government; 
aa  I  had  believed  the  case  to  be  unexampled. 
You  think  you  cannot,  omsistently  with 
the  important  trust  reposed  iq  you,  comply 
with  tiie  requisition  made  by  me  » the  name 
of  his  majesty ; — %  name  bv  me  deemed  very 
high  security,  and  which  I  have  power  to  use 
in  natkmal  concerns  of  the  utmost  impoft- 
ftnce  ;««'-cuwl  as  I  feel  in  my  breast  tKfeit  I  hav«i 
done  my  duty  to  his  majesty,  and  to  my 
country,  in  making  the  reamsition ;  I  have 
«nly  tb  add  that  ^  have  tannos  yourselvas 
«ay  and  all  the  ill  ceoeequeiiees  which  mny 
•lise  hom  the  refusal. 

M^.  Gen.  The  pcxl  thia^;  te  read  is,  upon 
the  S9th  August,  a  long  mmute;  the  emct 
is^s. 

Thai  they  passed  the  orders  to  gVPe  t*  the 
in^ps  the  half  baitta*. 

CmiH,  Do  not  those  eircmn^tances  |$e 
futher  than  this?  it  mvohes  them  all  inn; 
that  they  iHd  taken  the  whole  government 
wpan  themselves  in  every  shape  in  the  world, 
te  be  sure  they  wooM  give  dny  thin^  to  s^ 
cure  ^e  troops-^tbey  had  every  thmg  in 
tinircNnipoww. 

jfcf .  OiM.  TheA  gwro  additional  pay  to  the 
troops. 

CbuK.  To  be  sure  tittt  wobM  involve  tkem 
all ;  but  there  are  ^nater  lines  the  iury  will 
ottond  to.  Is  there  sn^  kind  ot  charge  of 
any  intention  upon  his  hte  ^ 

Mr.  Dmmnmf.  Not  fl(  word.  The  ques- 
tion his  lordship  refused  lo  put  for  the  con- 
•ideratseiiof  the  Beafd^  was  resumed  and 
decided  upon  that  day;  knd  the  rest  that 
foUqwed  was  ihe  upehot  of  Hv 
SoL  Gen,  My  lord^  we  have  dene  with  this 
kindof  evidencei 

.  JEdwfird  Dempsey  sworn. 
EaoaiiBMCid  by  iAx^  SoUckof  ffgi^iff. 

Std,  Gin,  Uto  ^uk»ow  e^oAel  Slairt?-^ 
¥ai,Sir..  -    •    :  '  .- 

ikivo  .yoii  be^a  at  IfcdfaaF^^^-Ytesy  Sir. 

in  whose  eervice  «eie  you  at  Madias?-^ 
Miw  Beniddn. 

fai  what  capadly  were  ^a  ?^I  was  postilion 
asd  coachman; 

Mff.  Duiuita^.     I  stand  'up  merely  for 

the  pUr^serolFehotteDibg  th^  avideiMe ;  I 

I"  '  ^  .      

;   #  »  B«ttSr^iioofmt,'  alloir«ket,  dlovmioe    to 


beHcta  ovary  body  thhiks  ydur  lordshia 

would  not  wish  to  have  so  much  tinio  fsdeeA 

up  in  vain,  ae  to  hear  anv  ikmg  about 

whether  colonel  Stuart  ever  borrovMed  Bei^ 

field^s  chaise; — will  it  affect  any  eaquiries 

respecting  the  present  transactions  ?  I  have 

not  the  honoiirof  being  col.  Stuart's  counsel, 

nor  interested  with  any  part  of  Ins  defence. 

Court.  Nothing  that  passed  between  colo- 
nel Stuart  and  Benfield  can  a^ct  them. 

8oL  Otn.  It  respects  colonel  Stuart's  iasjpri- 
sonment  of  lord  Pigot,  and  putting  him  mio 
the  chaise  of  this  man.  Your  lordship  findk 
under  what  circumstances  he  acted;  it  wai 
under  their  ordeirs  to  imprison  lord  Pijot. 

Court.  That  is  established  already. 
Mr.  Dunning.  I  cannot  conceive  how  it 

can  be  said  we  can  be  answeratde  Ufr  taif 
'  thing  done  by  colonel  Stuart  more  than  by 

our  orders.— ^Our  otders  were  exeeuted,  that 

is  proved. 

Court.  I  think  you  cannot  —the  order  hie 
been  read;  he  has  executed  what  was  ordered. 
— What  is  the  sort  of  thing  you  want  now  to 
prove,  Mr.  Solicitor  f 

Sol.  Gen.  To  prove  the  manner  tsfd  PS|Ot 
was  seized ;  that  he  w^s  taken  out  of  lias  own 
chieiiso  by  ]>orsohal  violence)  and  in  that  mo- 
ment put  into  the  witness's  master's  chabe, 
which  he  drove.  * 

C4mrt.  The  use  of  it  i^  to  afoot  them  with 
this  violence  ? 

Sol,  Gen,  Yes. 

C^rt,  Surely  not.  Whefe  there  is  such 
an  ordor,  the  proceedings  must  be  violent ;-~ 
they  a^e  answerable  for  every  act  of  it.-^You 
are  not  going  for  damages. 

iSs/.  Qm,  No,  but  for  the  aggmvation  of 
the  offence.    • 

Court.  They  wiU  not  bo  answerable  for  any 
thing  but  their  own  orders;  aiMl  civilly^  for 
what  theit  i^nts  do. 

aa,  Gm.  If  they  authorize  him  to  tahe 
such  measures,  are  they  not  answeiahio  for 
the  medsoreef— ^They  leave  it  to  the  colonel ; 
-^they  trust  to  him  for  the  executioti  of  iMr 

ordel^. 

C0urt.  They  do  so.-^Tfaey  leave  it  to  hm 
to  do  what  they  think  it.-^Let  us  see  what 
the  evkien^  comes  to; 

Mr.  Vwrning, "  i  *pitAf  dosii«  it  hii^  be 

remembered  that  my  single  view  and  iaier- 

mptiMi  was  to  shortiea  the  time ;  I  have  not 

an  idea  that  any  thing  done  by  eolonei  Stuart 

fedai^s  to  be  now  jintified  or  defended. 

M.  G€a.  Hew  caAie  ysu  to  attend  thoia, 
or  to  have  any  concern  about  this  buunasa? 

Ho  uoswer. 

€oifit.  Where  was  it  you  attanded  ? 

Dempsey,  In  the  garnson ;  August  tho  18th 
I  wont  to  the  gamson  along  with  Mr.'Ben- 
fieUy  tod  I  staid  there  till  about  ti  oklodc ;'  I 
returasd  6om  the  garrison  back  agaai  la  diy 
ma6ter*s. 

Sol.  Gen.  What  were  the  measmas  Mr. 
Staart  took  for  the  security  of  lord  PIttyt?— 
Upon  the  18th  of  August;  I  retumoitaoiE 


1131] 


19  GEORG£  III.         Prooeedingi  agahut  George  SinUion         [1  ISt 


againrtomy-Biaster's^gardeii-bousey  upon  the 
0ame  day. 

Court.  It  is  impossible  to  leceive  this  as 
evidence.  This  is  what  Stuart  does  before  he 
has  any  orders  at  all;  and  you  want  to  alfect 
them  with  it 

Sol,  Oen.  He  provides  the  means,  before 
(your  lordship  sees)  he  has  any  orders. 
.  CcurL  Let  this  man  prove  what  he  wlil,  it 
is  iroposuble  they  can  be  affected  with  any 
.thing  but  what  he  did  in  consecjuence  of  their 
orders.  It  is  veiy  ^ood  evidence  against 
colonel  Stuart,  in  saymg  you  were  in  this 
jBchwe  before  the  dbpute  arose. 

Att,  Gen.  If  we  do  not  connect  it  with  them, 
it  will  be  matter  of  observation. 

Court:  You  must  not  ^ive  improper  evi- 
ilehce,  upon  an  undertakmg  to  connect  it. 
•Their  orders  were,  do  what  you  think  fit  to 
arrest  him; — ^it  goes  no  farther. 

SoL  Gen,  You  attended  colonel  Stuart?— 
.Yes,  Sir. 

Court.  When?— Upon  Sunday,  the  19th of 

AUEUSt. 

SoL  Gen.  When  had  you  any  order  to  go  to 
•ny  particular  place  ?-«Wednesday,  the  20th 
•f  Aueust 

Mr.  Dunning.  If  you  chuse  to  put  the 

question,  the.  only  question  proper  to  be 

put,  is,  Whether  you  had  any  orders  .or 

,    mtercourse  subsequent  to  the  orders  of  the 

'    J3d? 

Court.  Certainly. 

Sol.  Gen.  Do  you  know  any  pf  the  de- 
fendants, Mr.  Stratton,  or  Brooke,  or  sir  R. 
Fletcher,  or  Mr.  Mackay  ? — Yes,  your  honour, 
I  know  iJiem  all.  . 

Do  you  know  whether  tfiey  were  acquainted 
with  your  master  or  not } — ^Yes. 
..   With  Mr.  Benfield  ?— Yes. . 
Court.  I,  dare  say  th^ey  were. 
Sol.  Gen.  Did  they  use  to  visit  with  your 
master?— Yes,  sometimes;   I   have  known 
them  meet. 

.  Do  you  know  whether  they  were  together, 
any  of  them,  with  your  master  before  the 
time  we   have  been  speakine  of? — Nb;    I 
r  don't  know  of  their  being  togeUier  before. 

Do  you  remember  the  time  of  lord  Pigot 

being  seized  and  taken  into  custody  ?-i>Yes.  • 

.    Did  vou  receive  any  orders  that  day,  or  the 

.  day  before,  relative  to  attending  or  waiting,  or 

any  thing  of  that  sort? — ^Yes;  I  was  two  or 

;  three  days  in  waiting. 

That  day  did  you  receive  any  particular 
.  orders  ? — ^Yes,  the  94th  of  August  I  recdved 
particular  orders.  * 

Mr.  Dunning.    The  manner  of  putting 
that  question,  and  receiving  that  answer  is 
'   UBj^roper. 

Sol.  Gen.   Upon  his  sayins  I  attended  that 

)  dayi  I  desire  to  know,  wfacwer  he  attended 

jat  aoy  particular  place  where  he  was  to  be  of 

use  ? — Yes,  the  $4th  of  August  I  had  particu- 

iar  orders. 

I7pon  the  S<ith  you  bad  particular  ordera? 

i^r#es. 


From  whom  did  you  receive  them  ?-^Froiii 
colonel  Stuart. 

What  were  your  orders? — To  be  in  readi- 
ness bv  half  an  hour  after  five,  or  six  o'dock 
at  farthest. 

Where  were  you  to  be  in  readiness? — ^To  re- 
ceive farther  orders. 

Were  you  in  readiness? — ^Yes. 

Did  you  receive  any  other  orders? — ^Kq,  I 
did  not. 

Had  no  orders  to  go  any  where  ? — Yes,  I 
had  orders  to  go  upon  the  island. 

Who  gave  you  those  orders?— CoL  Stuart. 

Did  you  take  any  body  with  you  to  go 
there? — I  took  serjeant  Sawyer,  your  honour, 
in  the  chaise;  and  the  blincb  were  put  up. 

Was  this  by  colonel  Stuart's  orders  ?-Hf  es* 

You  went  to  the  island  ? — Yes,  about  half 
after  six  or  seven,  as  near  as  I  can  guess. 

Did  you  stay  any  time  at  the  islaiui,  or  see 
any  thmg  of  lord  Pigot? — I  was  there  ten 
minutes,  when  I  saw  colonel  Eidingioun  and 
captain  Lysaght  walking  together.  Then  I 
saw  18  or  90  seapoys  at  the  carter  ot  my 
chaise ;  I  was  all  in  amaze  to  see  a  guard  pot 
over  me ;  seijeant  Sawyer  said, "  If  you  make 
**  anv  disturbance  here,  I  will  shoot  you ;  lAj 
^  orders  are  to  shoot  any  pwson  that  nsakea 
"  it" 

That  quieted  you  ?— Yes,  that  quieted  me. 

Did  you  see  any  thing  of  lord  Pigot? — ^la 
about  twentv  minutes,  I  saw  lord  Pigot  com- 
ins  in  his  phaeton,  with  cobnel  Stuart  in  it ; 
and  captam  Lysa^t  halloo'd  out,  ^  HaUo  !** 
says  he,  ^^.  boy,  come  out."  I  came  out  di- 
rectly, and  mounted  mjr  horse.  Directly  after 
that,  captain  Lysaeht  jumps  up  to  the  other 
chaise,  and  says,  ^' My  lord,  vou  are  my  pri- 
soner ;"  and  clapt  a  pistol  to  his  breast ;  and 
colonel  Ei^ngUmn  goes  to  his  defence  with 
his  sword. 

Which  of  the  colonels  was  it  that  tock 
him? — Captain  Lysaght  and  col.  Eidinstoun. 

Colonel'  Eidingtoun  drew  his  sword  r— He 
took  his  sword  in  hb  defence. 

What  do  you  mean?— ^Went  upon  captiin 
Lysaght's  defencie. 

One  went  with  a  pistol,  the  other  with  a 
sword? — ^Yes;  I  thai  heard  colonel  Stoait 
say,  ^  My  lord,  get  out  of  my  chaise,  you  are 
**  my  prisoner." 

Court.    There  is  no  doubt  of  all  this. 

Where  did  th^  place  lord  Pigot ?~I  theu 
took  my  lord  in  my  chaise  to  the  Mount. 

Who  was  in  thechaise  with  him?—- CAptaia 
Lysa^t.  I  then  went  to  the  Mount  to 
miyor  Homers ;  he  was  delivered  up.  Upott 
my  return  upon  the  road,,  capt.  Lysi^tweiit 
out  of  my  chaise,  I  was  ordered  to  retnm 
home  to  my  master ;  and  upon  the  97th  of 
Ausust,  I  went  to  the.  garrison  again*  akm§ 
with  my  master;  and  wasleft  under  the  uxam 
charge  with  coL  Sti6irt  which  I  had  with 
Serjeant  Sawyer.  I  returned  with  the  tana 
segeant. 

Where  did  you  go?«— I  went  to  the  Moub^ 
to  bri^goy  Im  bra  a§Ma  tQ.th*ftfriKipk 


ll3St\ 


ttni  <4herspjbr  deposing  Lord  Pfgot. 


A.  D.  1779- 


[list 


What  time  was  it  when  you  got  there  ?*-A8 
near  as  I  can  sav,  it  was  between  9  and  10; 
then  I  drove  the  back  way  through  the  river ; 
and  col.  Eidingtoun  had  several  words  with  me^ 
because  I  would  not  go  the  way  he  ordered ; 
I  aaid,  I  did  not  like  to  go  that  Mrav^  upon  ac- 
count of  my  horses  being  Arabian  horses,  and 
veiv  difficult  to  .manage;  we  drove  to  the 
back  of  nuyor  Home's;— he  went  into  Dr. 
'  Story's  country  house, — there  he  walked 
abwxi  for  20  minutes  with  col.  Eidingtoun  and 
Serjeant  Sawyer,  till  he  |Ux>k  an  opportunity  to 
go  to  mayor  Home's,  to  fetch  my  lord;  he 

SLve  roe  farther  orders  to  drive  to  Mr. 
orne's;— then,  between  3  and  4  in  the 
morning,  I  was  goine  to  the  garrison,  and  I 
met  commodore  liugnes;  the  garrison  sates 
^ere  fast;  as  dear  as  X  can  guess,  at 4 o'clock, 
the  gates  were  not  open. 

Did  you  wait  at  the  Mount  till  near  that 
time  ?— The  thne.  I  set  out  from  the  Mount 
was  about  half  after  3. 

Who  ordered  you  to  go  from  the  Mount  ?*- ' 
Col.  Eidingtoun,  I  broueht  him  from  the 
nrrison ;  and  the  GommcSiore  was  waiting  at 
w  gates  for  their  being  opened;  col.  Eidmg- 
toun  got  out  of  the  carriaee,  and  got  into  the 
commodore's  coach,  aod  tney  had  a  great  deal 
•f  talk,  and  I  drove  into  the  earrison. 

This  was  upon  the  S7th  ?--^es. 

I  think  I  asked  you  before,  if  the  defendants 
or  any  of  them  were  frequently  with  your 
master, — either  Mr.  Strslton,  Mr.  Brooke, 
Mr.  Floyer,  or  Mr.  Mackay  ?— Yes ;  I  have 
seen  Mr.  Floyer  with  my  master  several 
limes. 

How  long  before  your  goinff  to  colonel 
Stuart's  ? — About  3  or  4  davs  before. 

Do  you  know  the  nabob  r— Yes,  I  do. 

Do  you  know  of  any  of  them,  going  there 
two  days  before  you  were  put  under  the  orders 
of  col.  Stuart? — ^I  drove  my  master  the  19th 
of  August 

I  do  not  ask  after  your  master,  I  mean  the 
defendants.  Did  they  go  to  ,the  nabob's  ?-^ 
*No  ;  I  never  have  seen  one  of  them. 

t>id  he  visit  an^  of  them  ?  or  either  of  his 
flOBS? — No;  he  visited  my  master. 

Court,    Have  you  done  with  this  man's 
goins  to  the  Mount? 
S^,  Gen.    Yes. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Dunning. 

Mr.  Dunning,  Your  master  had  the 
reputation  of  keeping  the  best  horses  in  the 
settlement? — ^Yes. 

And  the  best  carriages  in  the  settle- 
-ment? — Yes. 

And,  in  you,  the  best  driver  in  the  settle- 
ment ? — ^Yes,  your  honour,  I  am. 

Now,  may  be  col.  Stuart  was  not  at  all 

singular  in  chusing  to  be  driven  in  the  best 

chaise,   drawn  by  the  best  horses,  and 

driven  by  the  best  driver  in  the  settlement. 

.    Col.  Stuart  had  frequently  borrowed  this 

.    chaise  of  your  master^  and  so  had  other 


people?— No,  he  never  did  Imt  that  time 
he  sent  it  to  col.  Stuart's. 

He  had  had  it  frequently?— No;  never 
but  that  tiipe,  while  I  was  with  him. 

Perhaps  col.  Stuart  at  the  time  had  somft. 
horses  and  diaise  of  his  own  ? — Yes,  I  hi* 
hevehehad. 

Perhaps  you  can  tell  whether  any  ibiam 
was  the  matter  with  his  horses  ? — NoTT 
cannot  tell  any  thii^  at  all  about  that. 

He  did  not  use  your  master's,  you  say, 
from  the  time  ycti  were  with  him,  till  that 
time  ?— No. 

The  Hon.  Edward  MoncfUen  sworn. 
Examined  by  Mr.  Mansfield, 

Mr.  Mantfield,  Mn  Monckton;  you,  I  be^ 
lieve,  Sir,  were  at  Madras  at  this  unfortunate 

period,  when  lord  Pigot  was  imprisoned  ? ^I 

was,  Sir. 

Do  you  remember.  Sir,  whether  you  hap- 
pened to  go  to  the  Mount,  upon  the  87th  of 
August,  1776? — ^I  went  to  the  Mount,  the 
morning  after  lord  Pigot  was  confined ;  and 
remain^  at  the  Mount  the  whole  time  of  his 
confinement. 

I  wanted  to  call  your  attention  to  what 
passed  in  the  evening  of  that  day.  Do  you 
remember  going  to  the  Mount  in  the  evening, 
or  pretty  Site  at  night  upon  the  87th  of 
Au^st;  orbeine  there  about  that  time?  I 
believe  you  had  been  there,  and  were  in  bed 
when  you  heaAl  a  disturbance?— Upon  the 
S7th  of  August,  in  the  night,  between  eleven 
and  twelve  o'clock,  when  I  was  going  to  bed,, 
some  of  lord  Pigot's  servants  came,  and  called 
me  up,  and  said,  lord  Pigot  was  fighting  with 
the  soldiers;  and  said,  there  was  a  chaise 
with  provisions  in  it,  and  an  armed  man  be^ 
hind  It  in  a  ereat  cloak ;  and  that  they  wanted 
to  carry  lord  Pigot  away  prisoner  to  Gingee. 

This  was  between  elevoi  and  twelve  at 
nifht?— Yes. 

Upon  being  so  called  upon,  did  you  go  to 
the  place  where  lord  Pigot  was  ? — ^I  went  im^ 
mediately,  Mr.  Lathom  went  up  with  me,  Mr. 
Dalrvmple  had  got  there  just  before  us;  I 
saw  lora  Pigot  standing  in  the  veranda  with 
lieut  Gison  upon  the  guard,  standing  on  the 
side  of  him.  i 

What  is  the  veranda? — A  kind  of  portico. 

There  you  saw  lord  Pigot  ?^*There  wai 
col.  Eidingtoun  and  major  Horae^  standing 
just  in  the  earden  at  the  foot  of  the  steps 
below  it,  and  as  I  entered  in. 

What  do  you  call  theplace  where  thev  wera 
eoing  to  cany  him  ? — Tne  servants  told  me, 
3iey  were  going  to  carry  him  to  Gingee ;  it 
was  only  an  idea  of  the  servants. 

There  you  saw  col.  Eidingtoun  and  major 
Home  with  lord  Pigot  ? — Yes. 

You  were  going  to  add  something  to  that  ?•— 
Just  as  I  got  into  the  garden,  I 'heard  m^jor 
Home  say»  **  my  lord,  it  does  not  signify ;  my 
orders  are  positive,  and  I  must  obev." — ^Loid 
Pigot,  Upon  that,  asked  them  where  they 
meant  xk  take  him  ?  I  made  answer,  that  J 


1155] 


19  GBORGE  III.  proceedings  agaimt  Q/targe  Stratum        [1198 


«»derdlodd  they  inesnt  to  take  him  to  Oingee. 
Col.  Eidingtoun  said,  *'  my  lord*  I  am  nol  at 
Ittier^  to  tell  you  "wtiere  you  are  to  go,  or 
where  I  am  to  take  you.    Mr.  MoticktoB,  I 
can  assure  jroo,  it  it  not  to  Gingee,  but  to  a 
pkcdi  of  s»ety.'^    Just  at  that  time  a  guard 
of  artillery  came  into  the  garden,  I  imagine 
^bout  16  or  18  artillerymen,  miyor  Home  had 
tlie  command  of  the  artillery  at  the  Mount; 
lord  Pigot  came  down  to  them  immediately, 
anil  saidy  ^  be  had  known  many  o(  them  a 
loAt  time»  that,  many  of  them  had  fbught 
wi£  him,  at  the  siege  of  Madras ;  that  he 
would  depend  upon  them,  and  remain  at  tfie 
Mount  with  tkem,  or  they  should  take  him 
to  the  commodore,  to  demand  the  protection 
«f  the  king's  flag,  or  place  him  in  his  own  (brt* 
where  he  should  know  how  to  act ;  but  Chat 
lie  never  would  go  with  that  traitor  Elditag* 
toun ;  a  man  who,  though  he  acted  under  a 
cofnmissioa  he    received    from   him,   had 
(topped  him  in  liie  ni^  upon  the  high  road, 
and  with  a  loaded  pistol  lik^  an  assassin.'* 
Lord  Pigot  sakl  ft  grM  deal  more  to  this  jHtf^ 
fose^  aul  Mr.  Dalrymple,  myself^  and  Mr. 
Lathom  talked  a  good  deal  to  the  soldiers. 
€oI.  Eidingtoun  said  to  the  rtien,   "  I  am 
wre  you  know  yolir  duty,  and  yoit  t^ill  obey 
your  officer;*'   ne  repeated  h  twibe  to  the 
men,  but  the  Inen  stood  mute  and  made  no 
answer ;   and  I  am  convinced  from  their 
manner  they  would  have  doi^  any  thing  lord 
Pigot  had  desired  of  ihem.    Major  ifome, 
merring  that  the   artilleryiilHftn  made   no 
answer,  toak  eel.  Eidingtoun  on  one  side; 
where  they  conferred  together  a  little,  and 
then  came  back  to  lord  P^t;  and  major 
Home  iaid,  ''  my  lord,  if  your  lordship  will 
pomise  tP  remsan  quiet  fbr  to  night,  till  we 
can  get  farther  orders  from  the  foit,  I  win  be 
anawerable  foryou  to  eol.  Eidingtoun.^'  Afler 
this  we  all  went  to  our  own  rooms. 

Was  there  any  chaise  prepared  to  carry  my 
lord  Piffot  away  at  that  hour  of  the  night  ? — I 
Bftw 4i<£ai8e  standing  at  the  gate. 

Dp  you  know  what  chaise  It  was^ — ^Noj  it 
was  dark,  and  I  was  in  a  hurry  to  go  in ; 
tbeve  can  be  no  doubt  in-  th^  world  of  its 
being  Betlfield's  chftisei  liiat  is  allowed  Irf 
every  body  I  believe. 

.QtmH,,  Did  they  take  tord  Pig0t*s  wo^dl  that 
he  would  be  ouiet? — ^I  do  not  know  whether 
krd  Pigot  made  any  answer. 

Gotiff.  He  made  no  answer  f — ^I  do  not  re^  i 
collect  whether  lord  Pigot  m«^e  any  answer 
iv^iatei^er ;  fot  he  neter  wouki  come  into  any 
IttBd  of  terms,  or  Speak  of  any  business  whatr 
aver  to  them. 

Mr.    I>trt>iHeg.    Major  Horoe   said  to 

lord  Pigof,  '<  if  you  will  be -quiet,  I  will  be 

answerable  to  col.  Eidingtoun  ?"— Yes. 
Nothing  more  was  said'f — No. 

Mr.  MamJUld.  Hoov  long  did  lord  Pigot 
mnain  at;,  the  Mount,  from  the  37th  of 
August  ?— He  remained  at  the  Mount  till  the 
SSth  Aprils  1777  ;  there  was  always  an  officer 
wHh  him  wheret er  he  went|  and  I  have  seen 


theordeiD;  the  officers  had  a  written  otder 
given  from  one  to  the  other,  he  was  not  to 
converse  with  any  one  but  in  their  presence  { 
and  there  were  two  or  three  attiUeryDien  to 
guard  him. 

Then  his  lordship  was  kept  a  constant 
prisoner,  somebody  always  present  trith  him 
from  the  84th  of  August,  when  he  was  6nt 
imprisoned^  till  the  fisth  of  Apri]^-Tlli 
officei^  were  always  exceedinglv  exaet  in 
being  in  bis  prestoce,  for  their  orders  were  to 
be  so. 

No  disturbance  was  ever  created  by  his 
frknds  f — I  beliete  it  was  ^netally  known  to 
the  whole  place,  that  lord  Pigot  from  hit  first 
coniiaement,  desired  every  one  of  his  friends 
to  remain  quiet;  and  not  cMnfenit  an|  dis* 
turbanee  whatsoever  upon  any  acooont,  or  tiy 
to  raise  any  party. 

Court.  He  GoaiiBiied  at  the  Mount  from 
the  «4th  6f  August,  1T76,  till  the  38th  of 
April,  1777  ?— Yes. 

Cmwf.  Wits  be  thenset  at  liberty  P— Then 
the  siwgiton  at  the  Mount  gave  him  over,  and 
ihoiitrht  he  oouM  not  live  aa^ioogor;  and 
Mr.  Pasleyi  the  Mudns  surgeon,  4h^  recoai- 
mended  hU  being  taken  to  ^  Gompan/t 
Garden-boa  se. 

Mr.  Dunning.  I  do  not  object  to  this{ 
but  it  is  hearsay  ohly. 
Mr.  Mansfield.  He  was  kept  a  prisoner  at 
the  Mount  till  the  C8th  of  Aptil^  and  tbon  ie> 
moved  to  the  parden-house  l-^A.  He  «ai 
removed  to  the  Garden-house  the  S8th  of 
A  prill  in  the  morning:  upon  the  18th  d 
April  in  the  evening  major  Home  caaieta 
me,  and  three  days  aAer  I  put  upon  Mer 
what  he  said  to  ne  tlmt  day;  sir  £ow. 
Hughes  was  piesent  ai  the  conversatien ;  that 
conversation  was  respecting  loni  Plgot's  bdog 
again  put  into  eonfioement. 

Mr.  Dunmng.    I  do  not  eiyect  to  it  firon  • 
the  least  apprehension  of  its  hftving  aif 
weight  against  my  dients.    I  de  not  mean 
to  say  wh^  you  give  in  evidence  is  nottni^ 
but  it  is  not  competent  to  us  to  hoar  it 

€mrt.    It  is  not  very  naaterial. 
Mr.  Moncktms.    There  waa  a  gunrd  fA 
over  him  agaiu;  m^yor  Home  oraered  the 
guard  to  be  continued  over  him  till  the  oiljol  , 
before  his  death. 

When  did  he  die  ?— Upon  the  1 1th  of  May, 
in  the  morning. 

Mr.  ManxJjM.  You  said  the  officers  were 
constantly  with  him ;  in  fiioi,  you  mean  the 
officer  did  not  constantly  attend  him,  but 
sometimes  suffered  him  to  be  atone,  or  fiom 
their  imMedittie  wreseace?— They  W^ 
ways  near  him  ;  if  he  was  in  one  fooai  twy  * 
would  stay  in  another  roem ;  that  was  an  in- 
dulgence of 'tiieir  own. 

You  were  very  frequently  irilh  had  Pigot 
during  liis  confinement,  1  beliePc?— Y**;  1 
believe  every  day  conatuttlyy  eaeept  when  he 
was  so  ill  as  not  to  see  company. 

Ton  can  toll  me,  whether,  daring  th«  «>- 
fortunato  impriaoBmettt,  bis  wiflb  wnito  i«^ 


1137} 


and  othersyfor  deposing  Lord  Pigot. 


A,  D.  1779. 


[1138 


a  disturbance?— His  wish  was,  and  he  told 
me  a  hundred  times  over,  to  keep  every  thing 
as  quiet  as  possible;  and  it  was  his  desire 
and  wish,  which  he  mentioned  to  all  his 
friendsi  not  to  raise  any  disturbance  what- 
soever. 

Cross-examined  by  Mr.  Kenyan, 

Mr.  Kenyan.    You  were  son  in  law  to 
lordPi^ot?— J.  Yes. 

Dunng.the  time  of  lord  Pigot's  confine- 
ment, you  had  frequent  access  to  him  ? — 
Yes. 
You  saw  him  frequently  ? — Yes,  Sir. 
And  all  the  rest  of  his  relations } — Yes. 
He  visited    you  also  ? — Ue  visited  me 
very  little  after  he  had  informed  me  they 
wanted  to  kidnap  him,  and  send  him  on 
board  a  ship ;  1  make  use  of  the  word  kid- 
nap as  his  own  expression. 
I  ask  you  whether  lord  Pigot  did  not, 
-whenever  he  chose  it,  visit  you  or  his  other 
relations,  or  persons  nearly  connected  witii 
him? — ^When  we  were  at  the  Mount,  he  did. 
He  came  t;>  your  house,  and  you  went  to 
bis  house? — ^Yes.  ' 

Did  not  he  ride  out  in  a  chaise  ? — ^He  never 
went  out  in  a  chaise,  excepting  one  day  with 
major  Hoi-ne  and  Mrs.  Home,  I  believe. 

By  lord  Pigot's  servants,  you  say,  an  alarm 
was  given.  You  say  he  spoke  to  the  soldiers 
to  take  him  on  board  the  ship  or  to  his  fortP 
— Yts. 

He  used  that  sort  of  language  with  the 
soldiers  that  he  persuaded  them  to  be  ready 
to  do  any  thing  he  bid  them  ? — No,  by  no 
means,  he  used  that  language  to  make  them 
desist  from  acting  in  what  they  came  about. 
He  address^  them,   to  bring  the  sol- 
diers over  to  his  opinion.' — Not  at  that 
time ;  I  believe  from  the  time  of  his  being 
at  the  Mount,  excepting  the  head  officers, 
he  might  have  had  the  army  at  his  com- 
mand "from  the  first  day. 
Mr.  Manxfield,    You  said  lord  Pi|ot  was 
permitted  to  visit  you  while  at  the  Mount ; 
col.  Monckton,  what  sort  of  mount  is  it ;  is 
there  one  house  or  how  many  ? — A.  The  dis- 
tance firom  major  Home's  house  to  the  house 
where  I  live  at,  was  between  two  and  three 
Inmdred  yards. 

There  ford  Pigot  was  permitted  to  come  ? 
— There  lord  Pigot  was  permitted  to  come. 

Was  he  attended,  when  he  did  so,  by  a 
guard? — ^Yes,  he  was.  A  day  or  two  after 
lord  Pigot's  confinement,  I  applied  to  major 
Home  to  get  lord  Pigot  the  liberty  to  live 
at  my  house ;  that  they  mif  ht  place  as  many 
Is  over  him  as  they  pleased,  but  major 
[orne  said  he  could  not  allow  it. 
Was  the  room  where  he  was  confined  con- 
venient for  him  ? — By  no  means ;  he  had  only 
one  room  to  put  all  his  cloaths  and  every 
thing  in. 

Mr.  Dunning,     He  was    in  the   best 
rooni  in  major  Home's  house  ?— Yes,  I  b&t 
lieve  it  was. 
VOL.  XXI. 


A  room  of  thirty  feet  by  eighteen,  I  be- 
lieve .' — ^Yes. 

Ath,  Gen,    I  beg  to  ask  a  question :  as  an 

insinuation  was  thrown  out  in  the  first  letter 

sent  home  to  England  by  the  defendants,  of 

lord  Pigot's  having  received  money  upon  this 

account,  as  Mr.  Monckton  was  my  lord's  exe- 

,  cutor,  I  desire  that  he  will  give  your  lordship 

an  account  of  what  he  knows  upon  that  heaa. 

Mr.  Dttnning.   Does  your  lordship  think 

such   an  account   competent  to  this  in- 

formatiojd?    Are  we  under  a  necessity  of 

pursuing  such  enquiries  here  ? 

Court,  There  is  a  strong  insinuation  in 
their  opening  upon  your  clients. 

Mr.  Dunning.  Which  insinuations  they 
will  support  if  they  please :  but  your  lord- 
ship sees  the  tendency  of  this  question  re- 
specting tiiat  matter. 

AU.  Gen,  The  insinuation  upon  lord  Pigot 
was  very  public;  when  these  gentlemen  sent 
word  home  to  the  directors  containing  the 
first  account  of  the  transaction,  their  con- 
cluding paragraph  is  an  insinuation  tliat  lord 
Pigot  had  taken  money  for  this  business.  ,  I 
am  ready  upon  the  part  of  the  prosecution  to 
enquire  what  foundation  they  have  for  it; 
here  is  Mr.  Monckton,  lord  Pigot's  executor, 
ready  to  answer  aiiy  question  upon  it,  and 
ready  to  speak  upon  it.  As  to  tne  insinua- 
tions I  have  thrown  out,  I  have  thrown  them 
out  open  to  be  contradicted  by  Benfield  when 
produced. 

Mr.  Dunning.  I  shall  object  to  their 
being  answered ;  I  am  perfectly  ready  as  my 
learned  friend  can  be  to  go  out  of  the  cause 
if  your  lordship  pleases  ;  but  I  hope  the 
court  and  jury  will  think  the  cause  long 
enough  without  going  out  of  it 

Mr.  Mantfifld.  'Mr.  Monckton,  do  you 
know  Mr.  Benfield  of  whom  we  have  heard 
so  much  ? — ^Yes,  Sir. 

.  When  did  you  see  him  last  ? — About  seven 
or  eight  days  ago  at  the  India  Ilbuse. 

Have  you  seen  him  here  to  day  ? — ^No,  I 
have  not. 

You  have  seen  him  here  in  court  to  day  ? 
— ^No,  I  have  not  seen  him. 

Q.  To  Dempsey.  When  did  you  see  Ben- 
field ? — A,  Aoout  three  weeks  ago  or  a 
months 

Mr.  Mansfield.  I  believe  some  eentlemea 
in  court  have  seen  him  within  this  hour. 

Q.  Where  does  he  live  ? — A.  Please  you 
my  lord,  he  has  took  a  house  just  by  mf 
master  I  live  with  now. 

Who  is  your  present  master? — ^Mr.  Onslcw. 

Mr.  Duntdng,  Who  may  be  your 
tnaster?— -4.  Mr.  Onslow. 

You  have  been  indicting  your  master^^have 
not  you? — ^No,  Sir,  mymaisterwas  alwaj'i 
in  my  debt. 

f  I  believe  Mr.  Benfield,  who  has  good 
horses,  good  drivers,  and  good  carriages, 
has  a  good  horsewhip  ? — Yes. 
'   Which  he  bestowed  v^  handily  upga 
4  D 


1 159}  19  GEORGE  III.         Pr0ceedingi  agaimt  George  Siration        [1140 


yoiir  shoulders  ?— .-Yes,  aad  I  hope  I  shall 
have  some  satisfaction  for  it 
Att,  Gen.    M^r  lord ;  I  rest  it  here.  I  shall 
not  go  into  any  farther  evidence. 

For  the  Defendants^ 

Mr.  Dunning ; 

Please  your  lordship,  and  you  gentlemen 
of  the  jury,  to  favour  me  upon  the  part  of  the 
gentlemen  who  are  the  defendants  in  this 
case. 

I  am  perfectly  conscious  of  the  disadvan- 
tage of  havin?  to  solicit  your  attention  at 
this  hour  of  the  night ;  after  that  attention 
has  heen  so  employed  in  the  course  of  the 
day ; — First,  dunng  the  two  hours  which  my 
.  learned  friend  upon  my  left  hand  called  for 
and  engaged  your  attention, — ^thcn,  during  the 
^  seven  or  eight  hours  which  have  been  smce 
*  employed  upon  the 'papers  which  have  been 
read  to  you,  and  the  tew  witnesses  that  have 
been  produced ;  which  must  have  exhausted, 
if  not  distracted  your  attention  from  the  (Quan- 
tity of  matter  employed  in  it  as  well  as  firom 
the  nature  of  it ; — a  great  part  of  which  you 
must  have  found  yourselves  unable  perfectly 
to  apply  to  the  Question  you  are  to  decide ; 
if  you  have  found  yourselves  able,  you  have 
much  the  advantage  of  me,  who  profess  my- 
self perfectly  unable  to  apply  them  to  it. 

Gentlemen ;  at  this  hour  of  the  nighL  and 
in  the  state  in  which  I  find  myself,  perfectly 
exhausted,,  I  shall  certainly  not  trespass  un- 
necessarily, upon  a  moment  of  your  patience 
or  time ;  but  my  duty  to  my  clients  requires 
of  me  not  to  pass  over  any  of  the  points  that 
have  .been  pressed  upon  your  attention,  as 
relative  to  them,  or  material  for  them  to  an- 
swer, or  you  to  advert  to.  In  this  cause  that 
has  happened  in  a  very  considerable  degree, 
which  in  truth  one  generally  finds  the  prinr 
cipal  difficiiltv  of  aU  causes,  and  that  which 
iias  caused  all  the  great  leogtb— for  this  is  a 
cause  of  length — ^you  have  been  supposins 
this  to  be  a  cause  of  attention; — ^the  alteof 
ance  we  have  been  honoured  with  to  day,  is 
a  sufficient  proof,  from  the  civcumstaaces  and 
the  manner  they  came  liere,  of  stories  having 
been  circulated  upon  the  matter  before  they 
came  here,  whicn  pretty  well  accounts  for 
that  attenaance ; — I  apprehend,  a  great  part 
of  those  who. have  been  attending  to  this 
moment,  find  themselves  perfecuy  disap- 
pointed in  what  they  have  attended  to  hear; 
-—they  came  here  with  an  impression,  and  ao 
idea  that  they  should  hear  a  very  difieient^ 
charge,  and*very  different  evidence,  and  that 
they  should  be  possessed  of  a  veir  different 
story,  from  that  which  they  will  have  to 
carry  away  with  tliem,  when  they  leaye  this 
place. 

Gentlemen ;  there  may  be  some  advantage 
in  bringing  the  case  to  that  which  is  tne 
gucstion  in  it ;  for  that  purpose, — to  divest 
it  of  tiie  circumstances  whicn  make  no  part 
vf  it,-«it  is  my  duty  first  to  tall  you  what  is 

»  T 

4- 


not  the  question ;  meaning  afterwards  to  tell 
you,  what  is  the  question. 

1  shall  begin  with  that  which  is  longest^ 
for  the  sake  of  concluding  with  that  which  is 
shortest 

Gentlemen;  corruption  is  no  part  of  tha 
question  you  are  to  try ;  for  the  mfon]iatio& 
contains  no  charge,  ia  any  part  of  it,  of  cor- 
ruption of  any  sort  in  any  person  whatsoever. 

The  information  contains  no  charge  of  cop- 
spiracy,  or  confederacy  of  an^r  sort  whatso- 
ever ;  no  confederacy  for  the  purpose  of  ^ 
curing  the  revenues  of  Tanjore ;  because  it 
charges  no  confederacy,  and  of  course  it  does 
not  charge  any  confederacy  of  that  sort ;  both 
of  which  were  the  subject  of  mych  aaunad- 
version  in  the  course  of  the  opening. 

There  is  no  charge,  in  uie  infomuitifiD, 
upon  the  defendants,  of  having  been,  directh 
or  indirectly,  accessary  to  the  murder  of  Intl 
Pigot. 

There  is  no  charge,  in  the  inforinatioD,  of. 
having  intended  or  wished  any  thing  like  tb% 
assassination  of  lord  Pigpt. 

There  is  no  charg^,  in  the  information,  of' 
any  undue  severity  in  the  confinemeot  of 
lord  Pigot. 

There  is  no  charge,  no  hint,  in  the  informs*, 
tion,  of  any  thing  respecting  Benfieki,  or  hit-, 
claim ;  or  any  thing  in  the  information  re- 
specting the  nabobs,  or  any  question  tbst< 
concerns  them  ;•— -both  of  which  necessarily 
arise  from  the  nature  of  the  dispute. 

Of  all  those  circumstances,  therefore,  I 
trust  you  will  completely  divest  your  memo- 
ries and  minds;  oecause  if  any  impressoa 
has  been  raised,  firom  any  one  of  these  coft* 
siderations,  it  is  not  au  impression  that  owbt 
to  be  raised ;  as  it  is  your  du^  to  attend  to 
the  simple  charges  alone,  as  contained  ia  tke 
information,  which  are  of  this  sort;— afbr 
stating,  in  point  of  fact,  the  several  conou5- 
sions,  civil  and  military,  with  which  loid 
Pigdt  and  his  associates  m  that  govemmeot 
were  intrusted  in  India ;  after  stating,  in  poiat 
of  fact,  those  comnuasions  being  accepted,, 
alid  he  going  to  Indiaiaconseouenceofit; 
— ^thc  present  defendants  (who,,  oy  the  vay, 
are  described  as  beinK  coun<;U  at  the  time 
they  were  called  upon  by  this  information  to 
answer  for  their  conduct)  did  i&ieirupt  the 
said  lord  Picpt,  after  he'  had  b^Hntoputio 
execution  tne  instructions  and  directuaisff 
the  Ck>mpany  for  restoring  the  king  of  TaS' 
jore  to  the  throne  of  Tanjore ;  while  he  wj 
about  to  have  proceeded  to  secure  the  tuA 
king  of  Tanjore  m  the  possession  and  eiyo^ 
mciit  of  the  said  territories  and  revenues  m 
that  kingdom,  then  they  interrupted  U^  r^ 
stnicted,  hindered  and  prevented  bka.carrpiV 
those  instructions  and  directions  into  exeoi- 
tionand  effect,  and  assumed  to  tbenuem 
the  government  and  coounand  of  the  ftft 
ami  garrison  of  Fort  St.  George;  that  tbij 
arrested  and  imprisoned  lord  ri^t,  and  tf* 
suiued  the  government.  That  is  the  suIh 
stance  of  the  information,  it  contains  a* 


'1 141]         '    "and  'Others^  fir  deposing  Lord  Pigoi* 


A.  D.  1779- 


LI  142 


tnore ;  in  the  other  counts  of  it  the  charges 
•are  less ;  1  state  the  first,  for  that  is  the  most 
"Comprehensive  charge  that  is  to  be  found  in . 
the  mformation.  You  will  observe,  therefore, 
that  the  defendants  have  not  the  honour  to 
find  they  have  been  associated  with  either 
the  nabob,  or  his  son,  or  colonel  Stuart,  or 
colonel  TSidinglcun,  or  major  Home,  or  Mr. 
Benfield;  and  of  course,  lor  none  of  those 
"have  I  at  present  the  honour  to  stand  before 
you  as  counsel ;  any  questions,  or  Imputations 
that  rest  upon  them,  it  behoves  them  to  re- 
sist; or  any  thing  in  their  conduct  that  re- 
t^uires  explanation,  it  behoves  them  to  ex- 
plain ;  and  there  is  no  reason  to  doubt  they 
will  be  all  perfectly  ready  and  able  to  do  so, 
^hen  called  upon  by  any  body ;  whether  the 
question  concerns  them,  is  not  the  concern  of 
tny  present  clients. 

Having  said  tlius  itiuch,  as  I  conceive  with- 
out apprcheilding  I  should  be  supposed  to 
have  mistaken,  or  misrepresented,  or  mis- 
stated what  is  not  tlie  question,  or  what  is 
the  question ;  permit  me  to  advert  a  little  to 
the  opening  with  which  this  cause  began. 

Gentlemen ;  you  are  'told  the  assault  and 
Imprisonment  of  the  governor,  is  in  itself  no 
inconsiderable  misdemeanor ;  but,  in  the  pre- 
sent instance,  it  is  only  the  means  of  putting 
the  defendants  in  possession  of  an  ample  go- 
-vemment,  and  as  ample  d  revenue. — ^That  to 
Arrest  ana  imprison  any  body  is  a  misdc- 
ibeanor,  unless  the  circumstances  ^hich  oc- 
casioned and  accompanied  it  afibrded  a  justi- 
fication, or  at  least  an  excuse,  is  a  proposition 
I  cannot  deny ; — of  course  1  cannot  deny 
Ifeal  to  arrest  and  imprison  a  governor,  under 
some  circumstances,  affording  neither  justifi- 
cation nor  excuse,  is  a  misdemeanor ;  the  sa- 
gaci^  of  that  representation  seeins  to  consist 
m  the  close  erf"  it;  that  the  end  was  worse ^ 
than  the  means  ;  fox  the  end,  was  to  assume 
the  government  consisting  of  ample  dominion, 
and  affording  ample  revenues.  The  nature  of 
the  government,  is  not  very  material  for  the 
present  question ;  there  is  no  necessity  to  zo 
to  die  extent  to  enquire  how  many  people 
were  interested  in  the  event,  or  whetner  ill 
Ct  well  governed; — it  suffices  to  say,  the 
more  persons  were  interested  in  its  being  well 
>  governed,  the  more  important  is  the  duty  of 
all  interested  in  that  sabjt^cl,  to  attend  to  it ; 
-1— to  prevent  any  danger  if  they  saw  any ;  and 
to  discharge  their  respective  duties,  in  their 
respective  situations,  according  to  the  best 
jadTgrnent  they  have  who  possess  it. — ^Those 
ample  revenues,  which  from  this  government 
were  afforded  to  the  present  defendants,  con- 
tt^t,  as  it  was' aflerwards  explained,  in  the 
revenues  of  the  rajahship  of  Taigore,  which 
they  are  supposed  to  have  fixed  tbeir  atten- 
tion to  secure  to  themselves,  and  to  be  in 
{possession  of.  As  to  those  or  any  other  emolu- 
ments in  that  government,  with  respect  to  the 
first,  the  gentlemen  knovr,  and  therefore 
should  not  insinuate  the  contrary,  tliat  the' 
fevenues  of  the  rajahship  aie  at  this  moment 


in  the  hands  of  the  r^ah,  to  whom  they  were 
given  by  lord  Pifi;ot ;  and,  under  his  lordship's 
permission,  in  the  hands  of  those  by  whom 
taken, — the  rajah's  officers ;  and  are  precisely 
in  the  situation  in  which  they  stood  during 
that  time,  as  delivered  up  by  the  governor 
and  council — in  that  situation  they  remain  to 
this  hour ;  and  the  present^efendants,  though 
possessing  the  government  "as  you  have  been 
told,  and  though  suffered  to  remain  in  pos- 
session of  that  government  a  considerable 
space  of  tlnte  afterwards,  did  not  make  use 
of  the  means  they  then  had,  and  did  not 
make  use  of  the  means  they  had  long  before, 
of  applying  those  revenues  to  themselvcH,  or 
to  go  one  jot  in  the /decision  of  that  question, 
farther  than  it  was  carried  by  the  last  resolu- 
tions which  were  read  to  you. 

With  respect  to  any  emoluments  arising 
from  the  government,  the  only  person  whose 
situation,  m  point  of  emolument,  was  changed, 
was  Mr.  Slratton;  who  it  is  said  assumed  the 
title  of  president,  and  became  as  such  entitled 
to  emoluments  superior  in  point  of  size  to  the 
rest  of  the  council,  those  emoluments  re- 
maining where  they  were,  Mr.  Stratton  not 
having  toudied  one  penny  of  it,  as  he  wafi 
determined  he  would  not,  till  his  conduct,  and 
that  of  every  body  else  impeached  upon  this, 
should  be  enquired  into  and  decided,  so  that 
the  revenues  were  out  of  their  reach,  though 
said  to  be  withm  their  power  perfectly  to  lay 
their  hands  upon,  ana  to  secure  to  them- 
solves. 

Gentlemen ;  you  are  told,  that  in  a  parti* 
cular  month  in  1777,  intelligence  first  reached 
England  that  lord  Pigot  haobeen  dispossessed 
of  his  government,. and  was  imprisoned ;  that 
in  the  conveyance  of  this  intelligenoe,  and  the 
manner  of  stating  and  relating  it,  my  clieata, 
the  defendants,  had  the  advantage  of  havimr 
thdir  own  story  to  |pll  firsl;  and  yet  so  bad 
\vas  their  story,  or  they  so  unskilful  in  the 
manner  of  relating  it,  that  it  excited  general 
indignation  and  produced  general  detestation. 
The  fact  is  otherwise;  the  fact  being,  that 
Mr.  Balrymple,  whose  name  you  have  heapd 
60  frequently  in  the  day,  contrivijag  to  be  the 
first  conveyer  of  intelligence  to  tms  country^ 
his  letter  came  on  the  17th  of  the  month; 
and  their  information  did  not  oome  till  the 
SOth  of  the  same  month  of  March.  • 

Mr.  Dairy mplc,  and  the  bearers  of  their  in« 
telligence,  tofi:ether,  came  ^v«r  land  from 
Suez,  where  they  were  det^cd  some  time;  ^ 
Mr.  Dalrymple  had  the  precaution  to  wt' 
down,  and  wmte  liis  narrative,  and  convey  iK 
so  as  to  get  tlie  start  of  his  adversaries.  It 
is  not  very  material,  whether  truly  stated  or 
not ;  but  m  consequence  of  these  erroneous 
instructions  improuerly  stated,  this  ill-told 
story,  notwithstanding  it  is  said  they  had  the 
advantage  of  being  first,  is  supposed  to  have 
made  such  an  impression  aot  only  upon  by- 
standers but  persons  more  immediately  in-i 
terested  in  it,  the  proprietors  of  East  India 
stock,  that  it  produced  a  resolution  to  restore 


IMS] 


19  GEORGE  IIL         Proceedings  against  George  Stratitm        [1144 


JordPigot;  which  resolution  was  soon  after 
controuied  by  another  resolution,  to  recall  all 
the  actors  on  both  sides. 

My  learned  friend  omitted  another  circum- 
stance ;  there  had  intervened  a  change  in  the 
direction ;  what  that  change  was,  what  party 
it  consisted  of,  of  whom  the  former  direc- 
tion consisted,  or  of  whom  the  subsequent 
direction  consisted,  I  don't  know ;  but  I  think 
I  do  know  enough  of  it,  to  believe  the  power 
of  the  directors  is  above  all  other  considera^ 
lions  to  be  attended  to.  It  was  not  observed 
upon. 

Lord  Mansfield,  They  did  not  think  proper 
to  read' them. 

Att.  Gen,  I  am  ready  to  read  them,  if  any 
observation  is  to  be  made  upon  them. 

Mr.  Dunning.  The  fact  is,  there  was  a 
chailge  of  directors ;  both  of  them  formed  re- 
solutions upon  the  subject ;  of  those  two  re- 
solutions, you  and  I  are  at  present  unin- 
formed, or  about  the  secret  history  of  them. 
But  which  would  you  conceive  to  be  the  right 
resolution,  that  which  was  founded  upon  im- 
perfect intelligence,  the  result  of  haste,  and 
"which  was  stated  of  course  to  be  an  imperfect 
information  of  a  bad  story,  ill  told,  or  ill 
stated,  which  is  worse ;  or  tnat  which  was  the 
result  of  better  information,  of  a  more  deli- 
berate and  dispassionate  consideration,  the  re- 
sult at  least  or  a  second  attention  to  the  same 
question,  by  the  same  bodv  of  proprietors  at 
large  of  the  East  Ix\dia  stock }  In  consequence 
of  that  resolution,  all  the  parties  that  sur- 
vived came  home,  and  it  was  a  great  mis- 
fortune, which  I  believe  nobody  laments  more 
than  my  clients,  that  the  noble  lord  did  not 
come  home  in  person  as  well  as  themselves  in 
conseauence  of  that  order.    It  has  produced  a 

freat  aeal  of  calumny  upon  the  transaction  of 
is  death ;  they  have  been  charged  in  a  very 
different  manner  from  what  they  have  been 
charged  to  day;  yet  the  charge  of  to-day, 
yqually  unfounded  as  it  is,  has  been  the  sub- 
ject of  discussion  elsewhere.  However,  before 
these  orders  reached  India,  in  addition  to  those 
two  sets  of  orders,  a  third  set  was  stated  to  be 
sent,  which  were  orders  to  prosecute  those  to 
whom  military  offences  were  to  be  imputed 
upon  the  spot ;  and  likewise  to  prosecute  all 
the  subordmate  instruments  acting  under  the 
authority  of  the  defendants.  Which  of  those 
resolutions  sent  that  order  was  not  told  you, 
and  why  it  was  not  told  j;ou,  I  don't  know ; 
unless  for  the  purpose  of  inducing  you  to  be- 
lieve, that  the  conduct  of  the  defendants,  as 
well  as  of  their  civil  and  military  assistants, 
appeared  to  the  directors  and  company  at 
home,  to  be  such  as  rendered  them,  in  the 
opinion  of  that  company  and  directors,  the 
Objects  of  punisihment.  If  the  learned  gen- 
tleman meant  to  convey  that  insinuation  to 
you,  he  gives  me  a  right  to  say,  that  instead 
of  entertaining  those  sentiments,  the  senti- 
ments of  the  company  so  entertained  and 
explained  by  the  directors  were  the  reverse  of 
it.    I  am  called  upon^  and  authorited  to  tell 


you,  with  respect,  to  those  military  offeoden 
to  be  punished  tliere ;  though  a  military  en- 
quiry was  sent  thi^er,  those  who  sent  it  pre- 
saged so  little  of  its  being  followed  by  any 
disgrace,  infamy,  ruin,  or  conviction  in  coDse- 
quence  of  their  orders,  that  it  is  a  part  of 
such  orders,  if  colonel  Stuart  be  acquitted, 
he  shall  be  instantly  restored  to  all  bis  ho- 
nours, and  to  the  command  of  that  part  of  the 
army  in  the  country :  as  not  bein^  counsel  for 
col.  Stuart,  his  defence  not  being  involved 
in  this  case,  I  state  it  only  in  answer  to  what 
has  been  said  before  of  the  express  orders  sup- 
posed to  be  gone  out  to  India.  With  respect 
to  the  orders  to  prosecute  them,  there  is  not 
upon  such  orders,  nor  upon  the  foot  of  any 
such  charges,  as  I  know  of,  any  prosecution 
commenced ;  but  a  singular  sort  of  prosecu- 
tion was  commence  there:  I  did  not,  from 
motives  of  delicacy,  put  the  question  to  col. 
Monckton,  froni  wnom  that  prosecution  arose. 
There  are  relations  in  life,  which  lead  men  to 
think  it  their  duty,  and  to  make  it  their  du^, 
to  pursue  all  means  which  they  who  should 
know  better  have  themselves  suggested,  for 
the  purpose  of  the  prosecution  of  those,  who 
in  their  passions  they  are  inclined  to  think  de- 
serve it. 

Gentlemen;  there  were  proceedings  before 
the  coroner  in  India,  very  strange  proceedings, 
that  went  to  I  know  not  what  length,  before 
they  ended ;  in  fact  they  ended  as  such  a  ridi- 
culous business  oug^ht  to  end,  being  comoletely 
abandoned  and  laid  out  of  the  case,  oy  the 
people  there  conducting  the  courts  of  lav. 
That  prosecution  was  not  Idl  in  the  contem- 
plation of  my  learned  firiend;  not  directed 
from  Europe ;  no  prosecution  from  there  that 
I  have  any  knowledge  of  at  all ;  for  all  the 
knowledge  of  the  sentiments  of  the  compaoy 
here  is  of  the  sort  I  have  stated,  and  I  stated 
my  grounds  for  thinking  so,  and  you  will  judge 
whether  I  am  not  warranted  in  differing  from 
my  learned  friend  in  the  conclusions  we  draw 
from  those  different  subjects.— Gentlemen, 
you  are  told,  besides  these  orders  mnicr 
which  the  military  are  to  be  disposed  o(  ia 
India,  the  civil  servants  of  the  company  are 
to  be  disposed  of  in  England;  the  defendants 
themselves  are  now  come  to  Ei^laod;  tl^ 
the  House  of  Commons  have  oirected  the 
present  prosecution ;  that  the  House  of  Com- 
mons thought  it  was  proper  to  direct  a  prose- 
cution against  these  defendants,  who  had  de- 
rived the  principal  advantages  from  the  trans- 
actions in  question.  Whether  that  was  among 
the  reasons  that  induced  the  House  of  Com- 
mons to  direct  the  prosecution  or  no,  nj 
learned  friend  may  have  the  means  of  knoir- 
ing ;  I  am  sure  I  "know  of  none  such;  th»l 
do  know,  it  arose  upon  a  complaint  (however 
much  it  became  the  quarter  it  came  from) 
from  a  very  honourable  member  of  that  Ho«*, 
who  thought  himself  bound  by  his  relaUo&j 
ship  to  the  noble  lord  to  propose  there  ana 
every  where,  to  have  all  tne  proper  cni"{"^ 
made  of  the  whole  Uansaction,  m  the  fiiUc** 


1145] 


and  others f /or  deposing  Lord  PigoU 


A.  1).  1779. 


[1146 


extent  of  it.  This  is  among  the  fruits,  and 
I  am  afraid  tlie  only  fruit  of  the  application, 
that  came  from  him ;  but  this  is  so  far  from 
irritation  or  revenge,  that  lilce  every  act  of 
fais  life,  so  far  as  he  has  given  me  an  opportu- 
'  nity  of  knowine  it,  who  am  not  totally  unac- 

auainted  with  his  life,  it  does  him  honour  in 
tie  opinion  of  all  men  of  feeling  and  huma- 
nity. There  was  something  in  this  subject 
that  required  to  be  explained ;  some  parts  fit 
to  be  enquired  into;  his  wish  was,  and  he 
expressed  it  like  a  man,  to  have  every  part  of 
that  subject  enquired  into :  perhaps  tne  ho- 
nourable member  did  not  know  it;  but  those 
who  did  know  it,  ought  to  have  informed  him 
how  very  small  a  part  of  that  object  was  at- 
tainable by  the  present  mode  of  information ; 
I  speak  from  a  belief  that  the  transactions  of 
the  nabob  were  perfectly  open  to  be  enquired 
into ;  the  transactions  of  Benfield  in  his  rela- 
tions were  perfectly  open,  and  all  those  com- 
binations were  perfectly  open  to  be  inquired 
into;  I  am  apt  to  believe  the  honourable 
member  mistaken  in  conceiving,  as  he  did 
misconceive  .upon  many  parts  of  it ;  but  he 
took  his  information  from  a  quarter  not 
liable  to  be  suspected  by  him  of  any  intention 
to  mislead  him ;  he  took  his  information 
from  a  quarter,  upon  whom  I  shall  throw  no 
other  imputation,  than  having  first  misled 
themselves  by  the  violence  of  their  passions ; 
and  having  in  consequence  of  that,  misled 
him.  So  Sir  for  the  history  of  the  .present 
prosecution,  so  far  as  it  depends  upon  the  vot^ 
of  the  House  of  Commons ;  that  the  House  of 
Commons  voted  this  prosecution,  therefore, 
ivill  not,  ought  not,  nor  can  wei^  one  feather 
-with  you,  in  the  consideration  oi  this  question. 
I  only  need  to  state  to  you,  to  have  your  as- 
sent to  it,  that  instead  of  proceeding  tor  better 
information,  it  is  not  even  in  the  shape  of  an 
indictment  preferred  by  a  grand  jury ;  to  my 
shame  I  must  confess,  who  am  an  unworthy 
member,  those  proceedings  in  the  House  of 
Commons  are  much  more  imperfect  than 
those  before  a  grand  jury,  for  they  proceeded 
sometimes  with  no  information  at  all.  If  my 
learned  friend  had  cliosen  to  comprehend  me 
in  the  motion,  I  am  convinced  it  would  have 
passed ;  nobody  would  have  regarded  or  en- 
nuired  whether  they  could  have  got  me  out  of 
tne  scrape  or  not.  There  is  another  place 
above  stairs  where  they,  mjght  have  wished  to 
have  brought  it ;  so  may  you,  I,  or  my  lord, 
wish  for  our  dinners,  but  wish  in  vain.  The 
gentlemen  that  pass  round,  and  can  go  in, 
and  out,  and  get  their  dinners  when  they 
please,  take  all  tor  granted  upon  such  motions 
as  that,  and  think  all  is  right ;  this  was  the 
consequence :  to  that  House,  much  more  pro^ 
perly  than  this  place,  belongs  this  sort  of  en- 
quiry, to  which  this  tx>mp{aint  should  have 
been  brought ;  had  I  been  one  of  the  number 
of  those  to  take  a  part  on  that  subject,  in  that 
place,  I  should  have  taken  the  part  to  advise 
my  honourable  friend  the  honourable  admiral, 
if  he  will  permit  me  to  call  him  so,  to  call  for 


I 


the  different  resolutions,  and  to  insist  to  take 
the  sense  of  a  house  very  different  from  that 
House :  instead  of  this,  there  is  a  prosecution ; 
but  tor  want  of  something  or  other,  which  is 
nut  very  material  to  be  enquired  into,  it  so 
happened  this  was  all  he  got;  and  this,  which 
he  has  got,  I  believe  in  the  result  ^1  be  as 
unsatisfactQry  to  him  as  it  wouM  in  the  begin- 
ning of  it  be  tome,  standing  in  his  situation. 

Gentlemen,  having  taken  this  notice,  I 
hope  not  impertinently,  of  what  was  stated 
in  the  outset  by  the  learned  gentleman  upon 
my  lefl  hand»  who  then  proceeded  upon  a 
subject  respecting  the  history  of  tormer 
transactions  in  the  Deccan  and  the  Carnatic, 
which  he  himself  stated  to  be  somewhat 
aloof  and  at  a  distance  from  the  present; — the 

S resent  is  as  much  aloof  and  as  much  at  a 
istance,  at  least  they  appear  so  to  me,  as 
the  history  of  the  Deucalion  flood  or  the 
general  flood  is  distant  from  his  history  of 
the  Doccan  or  the  Camatic ;— it  did  not  ap^ 
pear  to  me  to  be  applicable  to  the  subject; 
his  ingenuity  will  not  probably  make  it  ap- 
pear, to  you  to  be  applicable  to  this  subject  t 
I  only  beg  leave  to  state  for  myself^  1 1  don't 
know  that  it  is  applicable.  In  the  progress 
of  that  history,  he  came  down  to  the  Tanjore 
war,  which  ho  said  was  marked  witli  all  the 
disapprobation  it  deserved,  and  it  was  deter- 
mined immediately  to  remove  the  governor, 
to  reprimand  the  council,  to  restore  the 
rajah,  and  undo  all  that  had  been  done.  The 
extent  of  that  proposition  I  totally  deny.  That 
it  was  disapproved,  or  rather  the  conduct  o£ 
the  governor  was  so  disapproved  that  he 
was  removed;  that  the  council  were  to  be 
reprimanded,  and  that  there  was  an  order  to 
restore  the  rajah,  is  true.  I  apprehend  those 
orders  cannot  be  well  understood  in  any  other 
sense,  than  as  expressing  that,  as  what  they 
meant;  those  three  propositions  I  shall  have 
no  quarrel  with ;  but,  when  the  fourth  is  add- 
ed, that  there  was  a  resolution  of  the  directors 
to  undo  all  that  had  been  done,  that  I  deny ; 
there  is  not  a  tittle  of  proof,  expressive  of 
that  idea :  there  are  circumstances  in  those 
instructions,  which  clearly  to  my  understand- 
ing convey  a  diflerent  idea  from  that  of  un- 
doing all  that  had  been  done;  perhaps  I 
may  as  well  state  in  this  place,  as  in  any 
future,  what  I  mean,  when  I  said  I  deny 
that  4th  proposition  was  added  to  the  three 
preceding  ones ;  certain  articles  in  those  in- 
structions I  desired  to  })e  attended  to  and 
read,  expressed  to  me  as  clear  as  language 
could  express,  this  idea,  You  are  upon  your 
arrival  to  take  proper  measures  to  restore  the 
rajah;  to  inform  the  nyah  such  was  their 
intention,  and  you  are  not  to  neglect  to  in- 
form him  of  it;  this  he  understood,  and  not 
misunderstood,  to  be  their  intention.  This,  X 
ajn  led  to  suppose,  expressed  in  their  instrus- 
tions  their  intentidn  was  to  restore  the  rajah* 
— ^They  state  a  part  of  the  transactions  rela- 
tive to  this  rajahship,  and  the  conduct  of  the 
nabob  witb  respect  to  it,  and  the  claims  of 


1147 J  19  GEORGE  lit.         Proceedings  ttgain^  George  Siruiton        [1148 


4he  nabob  of  tribute,  the  justice  of  which 
they  doa*t  appear  to  he  disposed  to  miestion, 
much  less  to  have  enquired  into,  and  inves- 
tigated ;  and  they  6tate,  for  reasons  expressly 
in  one  of  those  resolutions,  they  suppose  the 
expences  of  the  former  expeditions  against 
Tanjore  were  more  than  reimbursed  to  him ; 
the  subsequent  expences  he  found  means  to 
reimburse  himself,  and  his  particular  revenues 
at  the  time  w^re  more  particularly  stated, 
and  they  state  that  he  must  have  been  a 
considerable  gainer  after  dechjcting  all  his 
charges  incurred  in  that  expedition.  Gun- 
tlemen,  permit  me  to  observe  a  little  upon 
the  manner  in  which  this  article,  upon  their 
))art  of  the  business,  is  stated  to  ^ou.  It 
vas  stated,  as  if  the  compuiy  spoke  in  terms 
of  the  nabob,  as  if  he  had  stolen  these  reve- 
nues, and  appropriated  them  to  himself;  as 
if  they  were  phinder.  Now  I  will  read  them 
to  you ; — '  As  the  expedition  against  Tanjore 
in  1773  was  short,  being  undertaken  in  the 
month  of  August,  and  concluded  in  Septem- 
ber, we  apprehend  the  revenues  ot  the 
company  could  not  sufiRer  great  diminution 
by  that  war ;  and  we  must  suppose  that  the 
plunder  of  the  place  and  the  receipt  of  the 
'  revenues  (that  is  mentioned  in  contradis- 
tinction to  the  plunder)  for  more  than  two 
years,  will  have  rendered  the  nabob  a  very 
considerable  gainer ;  after  defraying  all 
charges  incurred  by  his  excellency  in  the 
.  said  expedition.'  There  is  not  a  hint,  or  wish, 
upon  the  part  of  the  company,  that  lord 
Ihgot,  or  his  coimcil,  t)r  any  other  powet 
upon  earth,  were  to  take  that  account,  or  en- 
lEfnife  into  it,  or  to  call  for  vouchers,  or  any 
statement,  from  the  nabob,  of  any  part  of 
those  revenues,  which,  in  the  article  i  have 
been  reading,  they  stxpposc  him  to  be  In  the 
possession  Or;  and  with  which  they  suppose  him 
to  have  reimbursed  himself  in  all  his  expences; 
they  therefore  meant  to  leave  this  subject 
where  this  article  leaves  H,— You  are  to  re- 
store the  rajah  of  Tanjore,  and  restore  all  the 
future  revenues  of  the  country  ;  but  yon  are 
to  go  to  no  retrospect  concerning  thfe  accounts 
t>f  the  nabob  whilst  he  was  m  possession, 
when  you  take'tfiat  possession  from  hhn, 
and  restore  it^o  the  rajah;  we  know  he 
has  received,  and  we  consider  him  entitled  to 
teccive,  all  the  revenues  to  that  thiie^  which 
we  don't  meddle  with.    Gentlemen,  perhaps 

•  you  had  not  seen  th6  materiality'  of  that,  s* 
tar  as  it  goes  to  the  merits  of  the  case ;  but  it 
is  plain  from  that,  the  directors  did  not  mean 
to  undo  all  that  had  been  done;  thej' meant 
to  attend  to  the  interest  of  both  those 
princes ;  they  meant,  as  far  las  they  were 
capable,  to  cultivate  the  friendship  of  both 

•  those  princes,  to  avail  themselves  of  future 
assistance  of  one  of  those  princes ;  they  had 
an  eye,  perhaps,  to  assistance  which  might 
be  expected  from  botii,  or  perhaps  they  meant 
to  form  some  future  barrier  agamst  mwchiefs 
\o  be  apprehended  from  them. — ^I  am  making 
ibeBi  a  ptiescfit  x>f  abundance  tff  reasons; 


without  knotting  what  were  their  actual  tea- 
sons.  You  see  clearly  tins  was  the  line  of 
their  oondttct;  that  infiiture,  the  kingdom 
of  Tanjore  belonging  to  this  mjahship,  ahoukl 
belong  to  the  r«|ah,  who  some  time  ago  wa* 
deposed  from  it ;  but  that  the  other  pan  pos- 
sessor and  enjoyer,  the  nabob,  should  not  be  . 
called  to  any  accoimt  for  any  part  <tf  the 
revenues  of  that  country,  while  he  remained 
in  possession ; — as  that  seemed  to  the  oora- 
pany  the  best  way  of  management. 

Gentlemen ;  you  are  next  told  a  narratiye 
of  what  passed  abroad;  and  my  learned 
friend  began  with  my  lotd  Pigot's  arrival, 
who  was  said,  and  truly  so,  to  be  received 
"^th  all  the  respect  due  to  his  character  and 
station,  and  with  great  respect  by  all  put- 
ties.— I  am  jierfectiy  ready  to  a4mit  it 
was  due  to  him  fr6m  both  parties. — ^You 
are  told,  the  defendaaits  have  been  obit- 
gated  to,  and  had  Hved  in  terms  of  friend- 
Siip  with  him ;  that  ?ome  of  them  were  bred 
up  under  him,  and  others  were  under  more 
recent  obligations  of  a  particular  sort  to  him, 
which  were  not  farther  explained.  I  do  not 
know  exactiy  hot¥  that  matter  stands ;  I  am 
content  to  suppose  it  stands  as  it  is  stated  ;<^ 
begging  to  make  my  own  use  of  it,  by  ob- 
serving it  is  not  unnatural  conduct  that  men 
so  related  to  the  noble  lord  should  become 
his  enemies,  but  H  must  be  under  the  influence 
of  something  more  than  a  sense  of  duty  to 
him ;  what  tliat  sense  was  which  was  i^re 
than,  and  preferable  to,' that  sense  of  duty,  we 
are  difforing  about.  I  say  it  is  tiiat  aense  of 
duty  every  officerupon  earth  owes  to  the  state. 
When  such  duties  clash,  however  painful  .the 
discharge  of  the  t)ne  may  be,  there  must  be  a 
total  forgetfulness  of  all  other  ichtions  in 
lifo:  in  compliance  trithtiiat  duty,  the  former 
appeared  to  these  eentlemen,  as  it  appean  to 
me,  to  be  below  ul  comjyarison  «nd  coirtrast. 
You  are  told  to  begin  wttii  the  nabob;  as  if 
he  had  been  among  'the  mimber  6f  the  defen- 
dants ; — ^that  his  conduct  was  of  an  cfqulvocal 
sort ;  no  positi\'e  refiisal  upon  his  part  to 
submit  to  the  pleasure  of  the  Company;  but 
it  was  a  direct  refusal,  or  somethtnv  tanta- 
mount  to  it ;  he  said  he  was  entitfea  to  the 
rajahship,  but  he  has  no  objecti<m  to  bis 
fnends  taking  possession  of  his  capital,  or  any 
thing  else  that  belonged  to  him ;  that  is  onlv 
a  circumstance  mentioned  en  passant.  This 
nabob  annears  to  be  of  good  character, — I  have 
heard  otnis  transactions,  and  a  great  deal  of 
ficood  of  him ;  but  never  heard  any  ill  of  him. 
So  long  as  I  have  been  acquainted 'with  the 
Eadt  India  Company,  X  have  had  occasion  to 
know  it ;  and  I  have  had  occasion  to  be  some- 
what interested  in  their  affairs !  and  I  have  al- 
ways heard  this  nabob's  proc^eedings,  having 
produced  the  most  lasting  connections  between 
men  ^Jid  states;  acd  things  have  been  so 
contrived,  and  so  involved,  that  the  nalMib 
canuot  exist  without  the  assistance  of  the 
Comj^any,  nor  the  Company  without  hioL 
That  produces  tmt  only  the  ismgoa^  the  gea- 


1 149}  and  otherifjbr  deposing  Lord 

tjeman  said  the  nabob  held ;  .but  the  senU* 
ments  and  lansuage  in  which  he  expresses 
himself  are  perfectly  agreeable  to  the'inanuers 
of  the  Asiatics,  as  weU  as  to  the  Europeans ; 
and  to  the  Europeans  as  well  as,  to  Asiatics. 
You  are  tol(^  however,  that  without  any  rea- 
son appearing  for  it,  "Mjr.  Mackay,  one  of  the 
defoDdants,  proposed  to  seize  the  nabob's  per- 
son; of  this  allegation  there  is  ho  proof; 
and  if  it  had  been  proved,  and  had  really 
passed  in  the  manii^r  stated,  I  could  only 
nave  lamented  my  client,  Mr.  Mackay;  for 
whatever  becomes  of  him  in  the  course  of  this 
prosecution,  I  think  he  should  be  kept  under 
the  care  of  others,  and  be  cloathed  with  a 
strait  waistcoat,  and  under  no  other  care,  if 
he  could  bold  the  conduct  he  is  represented  to 
have  held.  It  suffices^  thereibre,  there  is  no 
proof  of  it.  Then  sir  Robert  Fletcher  is 
stated,  (hy  the  way  I  am  no  more  counsel  for 
him  tbaa  for  th^  nabob)^^  not  to  be  embar- 
rassed by  any  forms,  but  proposes  to  march 
the  IrooBS  under  his  commana ;  an  emphasis 
was  laia  on  the  word  Aic :  it  was  complained 
that  sir  R«  Fletcher  had  the  comaoAnd  of  the 
|r<M)ps ;  how  they  were  to  be  employed, 
against  whom  they  were  to  march.  Lb  amatter 
of  perfect  indifference  to  him ;  if  any  thing  is 
said  of  which  there  is  no  pvool  that  can  war- 
rant it,  how  it  cam  afifect  his  character,  I  can- 
not tell.  Xiord  Pigot,  however,  declined  these 
ofiers,  it  is  said,  &it  sent  orders  to  some  o^ 
ccrs  upon  the  spot  to  take  possession  of  the 
town  of  Tanjpre ;  those  orders  were  obeyed 
an^  .  possession  of  the  town,  taken ;  but  you  ■ 
are  told  this  was  not  re8U>ring  him  to  the 
couatry,  of  which  the  revenues  were  a  prifjci-. 
pal  part. 

In  i^y  judgment  it  was  restoiiog  hitn  to  the 
4x>untry,  so  »r  as  the  country  was  comprised 
within  ^  town.  If  the  place  to  whieh  he 
was  to  be  restored  was  the  town,  in  cofolra^ 
distinotion  to  the  territory  round  about  it,  the 
restorine  him  to  the  town  would  not  be  re* 
storing  mm  to  the  country ;  but  when  the 
period  arrived  that  he  was  restoied  to  the 
r^jahship,  then,  in  my  opinion,  he  was  restored 
to  the  country,  and  restored  to  every  thing  ae» 
cordinjg  to  the  orders  of  the  Company  sent  hy 
the  Directors ;  and  though  net  in  possession 
of  the  ,rev<inues  collected  at  former  times, 
which  at  that  time  weresupposed  to  he  under 
the  possession  of  others,  he  was  not  to  be  re- 
stored U^  them.  Upon  the  36th  of  Mmch,  it 
was  said  to  be  unanimousW  resolved  and 
agreed^  that  lord  Piget  should  proceed  to  Tan- 
jore  to  execute  the  Company'^ orders;  great 
stress  was  laid  on  the  terms  of  those  orders : 
tbe  country  was  said  to  have  been  in  a  state 
Aot  admitting  any  farther  delay :  that  this 
has  been  rightly  interpreted,  to  mean  that  tha 
state  of  the  crop  was  such  as  could  net  be  de- 
lved (for  if  delayed  the  revenue  would  he  lost 
that  month  of  March,  the  date  of  these  or- 
ders) was  the  reason  for  cottectiog  thatcrep; 
I  undentand  so  from  my  dibits.  This  apr 
peaured  t»  thesR  amab^  o&ec  reasQua^  why  it 


Pi^f.  A.  D.  177a  11159 

was  proi)er  to' use  expeditk>a;  that  I  am  readv 
to  admit;  but  you  will  re(;oUect  what  it 
proves ;  it  proves  that  my  clients  were  joined 
m  that  resolution,  they  had  not  supposed 
themselves  at  that  time,  to  have  any  interest 
relative  to  any  claims  which  afterwards  they 
conceived  themselves  were  proper  to  be  en* 
quired  into,  and  of  which  ttuftt  crop  was  the 
subject  If  the  terms  prove  anything,  they 
prove  ^at  the  whole  oi  this  council  und  vore  ' 
resolved^  lord  Pigot  should  set  outimmediately 
for  Taiyore,  the  state  of  ^e  crop  not  admiu 
ting  farther  delay.  If  I  am  intelligible,  and 
you  understand  me,  you  must  feel  the  -force 
of  the  observation.  It  cannot  be  denied  to 
me,  it  was  reconcilable  to  no  possible  coo^ 
struction,  neither  is  it  reconcilable  to  agy  po8# 
sible  interpretation^  but  that  they  all  co^cuv« 
red  m  this  resolution;  then  at  least  they 
were  uncorrupted,  and  had  no  knowledge  of 
that  which  was  pressed  upon  you  alie^ 
wards  as  a  temptation,  in  order  to  furiHsh 
proof  of  the  reasons  of  their  conduet  Thhi 
resolution  upon  the  95th  of  JVfarch  is  de< 
cisive,  as  it  occurs  to  me,  for  my  clientSu 
and  appears  to  be  perfectly  useless  for 
those  whose  arguments  I  am  meeting.  It 
was  said,  tliat  before  lord  Pigat  set  out,  h»  ' 
was  just  told  Mr.  Benfiekl  had  some  claimt  ' 
upon  the  Tai^re  country ;  that  Mr.  Sen^ 
field  was  perfectly  unknown  to  my  lord  Pigot; 
that  afterwards  the  extent  of  that  claim  pnv 
duced  as  much  surprise  in  his  lordship's  mind 
as  in  the  nund  of  the  learned  gentlemfm  who 
stated  the  transaction  to  you ;  who  added, 
with  this  slight  and  useless  intimation  kud 
Pigot  set  out  for  Taojore^  wbeir  he  came 
there  he  found  np  difficulties,  but  such  as  wtre 
easily  removed.  As  it  is  truly  stated,  there: 
he  was  surprised  to  find  that  this  Benfield^ 
who  wasu thought  a  v«ry  inconsiderable  pnan, 
claimed  to  be  a  creditor  upon  the  Tanjor» 
country  to  the  enojtoious  amount  of  250)000/. ; 
this  does  not  immediately  produce  much  ob^ 
servation  u|»en  Mr.  Benfield's claims;  but  h% 
was  not  contented  to  be  forgotten.  You  will, 
upon  this  occasion,  permit  me  to  remind  you* 
that  before  lord  Ptgot's  return,  in^  the  first 
letter  sent  to  the  directors,  expressing  the  for<* 
wardness  of  the  state  in  which  the  execution 
of  their  ocders  was,  and  the  expectations  they 
thai  entertained,  they  would  immediately  bar 
concluded  to  their  satisfaction ;  they  ex- 
pressed some  apprehensions  of  some  difficui- 
ties,  upon  the  score  of  some  claims  then  so 
stated,  a3  if  they  who  wrote  to  the  directors 
at  home  did  think  them  then  as  worthy  of  their 
attention,  as  they  afterwards  appeared  to  be. 
In  that  letter  I  refer  to,  they  speak  in  those 
terms  that  neither  iu^orted  thev  wercjground- 
less,  or  that  they  weve  unworthy  theur  atteiS' 
lion ;  I  ^peak  of  the  letter  of  the  14th  of  Fe- 
bruary: on  the  5th  of  May,  however,  lord* 
Pigot  returned;  and  then,  it  is  said  to  you, 
his  proceedings  were  approved  of  by  all,  ex- 
cept Mr.  Mackay;  who,  l^ou^  he  had  been 
before  for  seuing  the  nabob  himself,  had  had 


1 15 1]  19  GEORG E  III.         Proceedings  against  George  Siraiton        [1 152 


iM:niples  about  what  he  conceived  to  be  un- 
•woTthy  treatment  of  a  run-away  officer  of  the 
rajah's.  That  Mr.  Mackay  had  an  inclination 
to  seize  the  nabob  is  asubjecti  have  spoken  of 
already,  and  have  done  with :  that  Mr.  Mackay 
was  the  only  person  that  objected;  is  perfectly 
ridiculous,  I  apprehend,  for  it  appears  he 
had  the  concurrence  of  the  rest  of  the  defen- 
dants ;  but  in  the  same  stile  with  Mr.  Mackay, 
they  in  general  all  concnrred  in  approving  his 
proceedmgs^  with  some  exceptions  to  one  in- 
Atance,  some  to  another.  There  were  two 
instances  in  particular,  affording  in  the  judg- 
ment of  the  oifferent  members,  exceptions  to 
the  general  approbation  which,  with  those 
exceptions,  thty  certainly  bestowed  upon  lord 
Pigot,  after  his  return  from  the'Tamore 
country.  Now,  this  run-away  servant  of  the 
rajaVs,  that  Mr.  Mackay  mentioned  as  having 
been  treated  improper^ ;  it  seems,  this  un- 
tvorthv  servant,  who  is  supposed  to  have  re- 
ceived this  treatment,  was  in  tnith  no  servant 
of  the  rajah's  at  all ;  he  was,  in  truth,  the 
dobbeer,  which  is  a  strange  word,  but  equiva- 
lent to  the  title  of  auditor  general  in  that 
country,  for  the  revenues  of  that  country,  and 
belongme  to  the  nabob,  not  the  njUti,  When 
^e  naboD  was  in  possession,  this  gentleman 
was  in  the  possession  of  the  revenues ;  under 
his  title  of  dobbeer,  he  is  mentioned  in  the 
letter  afterwards  read  to  you  firom  lord  Pigot 
to  the  nabob,  when  lord  Pigot,  in  consequence 
of  some  misinformation  that  had  been  con- 
veyed to  him,  was  made  to  believe  that  the 
dobbeer  had  ran  away  from  the  rajah ;  and 
that  he  laid  hold  of  him  when  he  was  running 
away.  You  see  in  what  terms  he  expresses 
himself  to  the  nabob,  who  thought  ne  did 
not  deserve  them,  and  complains  of  the 
nabob  as  he  had  unwortiiily  treated  this 
venerable  old  man ;  these  are  the  terms  he 
is  spoken  of  by  lord  Pigot,  which  are  contrary 
to  the  terms  he  has  been  spoken  of  to  day. 
Another  person,  that  appeared  to  the  rest  of 
the  coimcil  to  be  improperly  treated,  was  one 
Comra,  aGentoo  merchant,  and  of  one  of  the 
principal  casts  in  the  country.  It  requires 
more  Knowledge  than  perhaps  the  subject  I 
am  going  to  mention  to  you  is  "worth,  to  ex- 
plain how  the  different  casts  with  regard  to 
religion  in  that  country,  can  afiect  their  civil 
fortunes ;  but  so  it  is,  that  if  a  man  of  this 
distinction  loses  his  cast,  he  loses  his  rank 
4ind  his  estitjfiation  of  an  honest  man  in  that 
country,  until  he  has  gone  through  certain 
ceremonies,  by  way  of  expiation  or  ablution, 
which  the  pnests  of  that  country  hold  to  be 
material.  This  man  was  kud  hold  on,  and 
whipped  upon  the  public  parade,  like  an  ordi- 
nai^  culprit.  This  wad  a  temporary  act, 
which  did  not  deserve  approbation;  and  they 
chose  to  object  to  that  part  of  lord  Pigot*s  con- 
duct ;  for  it  cost  the  man  no  less  than  3,500/. 
Merlin^  to  pay  for  this  expiation,  to  wash  him 
clean  from  the  pollution  of  that  flogging.  It 
is  pretty  singular,  but  they  who  understand ' 
the  histoiy  and  manners  or  that  country  will 


understand  it  better  than  I  do,  and  the  truth 
of  it ;  I  believe  it  to  be  true,  and  I  only  state 
it  to  you  from  the  information  I  have  received. 

Gentlemen,  this  having  passed,  Mr.  Ben- 
field  is  again  brought  on  the  carpet,  as  laytnr 
his  pretensions  before  the  Board,  in  hopes 
they  would  have  the  attention  paid  that  he 
supposed  due  to  his  cliums .  Then  my  learned 
friend  (if  he  will  permit  me  so  to  express  myself 
runs  not  upon  the  subject  of  Mr.  Benneld; 
for  Benfield,  says  he,  was  so  indifierent  a 
person,  his  obscurity  prevents  the  possiblity 
of  speaking  enough  upon  his  history  to  give 
you  an  account  or  any  detail  of  Benfield ;  he 
IS  a  man  of  so  very  little  origin,  and  of  so 
very  bad  a  description  in  other  parts  of  his 
history,  that  it  puzzles  ingenuity  and  defeats 
industry  upon  the  subject,  to  get  any  other  or 
earlier  account  of  Benfield,  than  that  which 
he  stated  to  you.  Before  1  take  notice  of 
what  he  stated  to  you,  give  me  leave  to 
state  what  might  have  escaped  both  mj 
lord  and  you  in  the  reading,  but  that 
Mr.  Benfiela  is  supposed  to  have  arrived  in 
India  several  years  before  the  transactions 
in  question.  '  My  attention  was  called  to  it,  at 
the  time,  by  a  gentlenian  near  me;  I  speak 
correctly,  though  the  history  chosen  to  be 
given  you  of  Benfield  is  this ;  that  in  177%  be 
was  suspended  for  refusing  to  go  to  Balam- 
banea, — ^the  guilt  a  man  incurs  ror  refusing  to 
go  there,  is  not  stated  to  you.  Balsmban^ 
IS  ^  place  where  Mr.  Dalrymple  had  conceived 
the  idea  of  planting  a  setUement  which  cost 
the  Company  500,000/.  before  it  was  aban- 
doned, or  it  would  have  cost  more ;  it  appeared 
to  him  an  eligible  scheme,— to  him,  as  weQ 
as  to  more  persons  of  his  character.  Ifaave 
been  accustomed  to  entertain  a  very  singular 
respect  for  him,  as  he  appears  to  me  to  be  a 
man  as  well  deserving  estimation  as  any  living 
upon  the  habitable  part  of  the  gk)be ;  wfaert 
Mr.  Dalrymple  happens  to  be,  his  abilities 
entitle  him  to  the  good  opinion  of  the  publk 
at  large;  how  far  Mr.  Dalrymple  may  be 
qualified  by  that,  as  well  as  otner  parts  of  hs 
conduct  to  receive  your  approbatk>n,  you  will 
judee  firom  the  minutes  which  have  been 
real  to  you. 

Gentlemen,  this  inferior  situation  upon  the 
part  of  Mr.  Benfield,  whicli  accounts  for  his 
Deing  proposed  to  go  to  Balambangs,  was 
stated  for  the  purpose  of  shewing  he  could  not 
be  interested  ;  but  he  docs  not  tell  you  what 
appeared  to  be  Benfield's  situation  in  17T5 
and  1776,  at  the  time  these  transactions  an 
stated  to  have  happened.  But  my  learned 
friend,  with  heartfelt  astonishment  and^sur- 
prize^  says  it  is  a  little  astonishing  that  such 
a  ntan  should  have  the  insolence  to  pretend, 
(and  if  he  did  pretend,  who  would  believe 
him  >)  to  be  worth  950,000/. !  A  man  who  had 
100/.  a  year  in  India,  by  that  interest,  mixht 
make  «  or  3,000/. :  but  my  learned  fiicnd  has 
heard  of  persons  who  were  in  India  in  situa- 
tions at  least  as  obscure,  and  at  least  as  hun^ 
ble,  who  have  |one  to  India,  and  come  back 


1153] 


nni  oihertffor  3epoti§^  L^rd  Pigoi* 


A.  »*  177^; 


[1154 


|)osses8ed  of  miich  Isrger  fortunes' tlumt}nit|  and  in  what  manner  thelimitaUon  and  con* 


iclaimed  by  Mr.  Ben^eM.  If  he  does  not 
Jmow  of  such  personS)  I  do.  Neither  b  it 
necessary  to  eo  to  India  to  acquire  such  for- 
tunes, in  a  snort  time ;  is  it  not  the  case  at 
teme,  that  in  'this  country  we  shall  find  a 
man  in  possession  of  850,000/.,  who  has 
been  in  the  possession  of  a  place  of  100 
or  1,000/.  a  year,  that  has  g^ed  such  a  for> 
tune  in  S,  3,  or  5  years?  you  need  not  go  far 
from  tiie  place  where  we  are,  to  find  people 
possessed  of  S50,000/.  or  500^000/.  acquired  in 
a  .very  short  time,  when,  according  to  their 
appointments,  it  should  seem  nothing  tike  it. 
1  do  not  enquire  into  the  iheans  made  use  of, 
how  they  acquired  it ;  sure  I  am  that  some- 
thing more  than  knowing  what  a  man  pos- 
sesses^ is  necessary  for  me  in  fkimess  and 
candor  to  impute  iraud  in  the  mode  of  acquir- 
ing it ;  it  may  be  honest  or  not ;  something 
more  is  necessary  for  me  to  decide  my  opinion 
upon  it  at  least,  as  to  the  means  by  which  he  got 
it  However,  recollecting  himself,  that  he  had 
heea  a  little  severe  in  his  animadversions 
upon  Mr.  Benfield,  who  was  no  party  in  the 
cause,  my  learned  friend  concluded  with  say- 


ing, if  I  am  mistaken  upon  the  part  of  Mr.    lends  his  money  thus?  I  lend  you  money. 


Benfield,  I  hazard  nothing;  I  snail  be  set 
right:  By  whom  is  he  to  be  set  risht?  not 
by  me,  I  know  nothing  about  him—oy  me  he 
cannot  be  set  right :  by  Mr.  Benfield,  if  he 
were  ahiong  the  audience,  he  cannot  be  set 
ri^t;  for  however  a  man  may  think  himself 
injured  by  what  he  hears  here,  it  is  not  per- 
floitted  him  here  to  set  it  riffht :  my  learned 
friend  must  suppose  himself  speaking  of  a 
man  who  was  one  of  the  defendants  in  the 
cause ;  and  by  me  he  must  suppose  he  might 
be  .set  riffht.  If  he  thought  so,  he  was  mis- 
taken ;  I  apprehend  it  is  not  my  duty ;  I  have 
nothing  to  do  with  it;  I  leave  it  to  Mr.  Ben- 
field  to  3^dge  for  himself  about  what  it  be- 
.comes  him  to  do. 

.It^is  next  stated,  as  a  ground  of  imputation 
upon  Uie  claims  of  Mr.  Benfield,  that  it  was 
Jknown  so  early  as  1775,  that  Tanjore  was  to 
be  restored  io  the  rajah ;  and  then  the  que»^ 
tion  asked  was  this.  Is  it  possible  to  suppose 
that  any  man  would  think  it  safe  to  lend 
money  upon  the  security  of  a  title,  the  pos- 
sessor .ot  which  was  to  part  with  it  soonr  or 
is  it  to  be  supposed  the  possessor  of  Such  a 
title  would  not  find  difficulties  insurmount- 
able in  obtaining  money,  upon  the  terms  of 
such  security  ?  In  the  first  place,  with  re« 
spcct  to  the  terms,  it  is  without  proof  there 
was  such  knowledge  conveyed  to  India  in 
May  1775;  the  attempts  to  prove  it  were 
abortive,  and  I  was  not  at  all  surprised  when 
they  had  read  the  whole,  to  find  they  had 
proved  nothing.  The  whole  of  the  account 
18,  that  the  nabob  is  supposed  by  somebody^ 
to  have  heard  a  report  from  some  other  body> 
which  other  body  nobody  knows  of,  the  inten«> 
tion  to  restore  to  the  rajah  his  territories. 
Where  he  hesurd  it,  when,  or  upon  what  terms^ 


ditions.were  made  upon  the  part  of  those  re^ 
ports,  that  the  nabob  or  tne  persons  with 
whom  he  had  to  do,  should  rely  much  upon 
those  reports,  reftiains  to  be  made  out;  it 
cannot  be  made  out  by  arguments ;  4t  must 
be.  made  out  by  proof  to  be  an  absolute  cer- 
tainty, and  not  only  the  restoration  of  Tanjore 
but  the  precise  terms  upon  which  Tanjore  waa 
to  be  restored.  The  effect  of  that  communi- 
cation would  not,  in  the  nature  of  things^ 
prevent  these  transactions,  supposing  them 
all  honest  What  was  the  nature  of  tha 
transaction  ?  It  was,  that  the  nabob  wanted^ 
and  certain  other  persons  wanted  money,  for 
the  purpose  of  prosecuting  the  intended  culti- 
vation of  that  country;  the  means  of  repay-> 
ing  the  loans  they  required,  were  aff9rdea  bf 
the  crops  at  that  time  in  possession,  and  the 
second  crops  they  w^re  looking  forward  to  t 
supposing  these  two  crops,  which,  if  I  do  not 
mistake  the  orders  of  the  Company,  by  the 
spirit  as  well  as  the  letter  of  those  orders^ 
were  to  be  left  with  the  nabob,  or  any  body 
who  might  have  the  title,  if  he  had  parted 
with  it ;   what  hazard  does  a  man  run,  who 


with  tlie  full  knowledge  your  estate  is  to  end 
two  years  hence ;  but  I  lend  it  you,  for  1 
suppose  at  the  end  of  that  time  there  will  be 
abundantly  more  than  will  ^pay  me.  I  take 
an  assignment  of  those  rents;  am  not  t  com* 
pletely  secure?  it  is  ridiculous,  to  suppose  that 
It  is  not  a  proper  security  given  to  the  man 
who  lends,  by  another  who  borrov^,  if  the 
nature  of  it  was  as  I  have  stated  it  to  be. 
My  learned  friend  forgets  another  thing, 
which  is,  if  any  European  lends  money 
to  the  nabob,  it  is  lent  upon  a  security 
or  mortgage  in  European  terms ;  he  renuuned 
their  debtor,  and  would  still  be  their  debtor, 
if  it  was  never  paid  out  of  the  rajahshlp  to 
him ;  they  had  a  right  to  receive  it  from  the 
rajahship  if  he  was  not  m  a  condition  to  re* 
pay  it,  supposing  the  transaction  a  fair  one  ; 
put,  if  in  a  condition,  I  think  he  would  repay 
it ;  it  is  perfectly  clear  he  ought  to  do  so.  It 
was  said  Mr.  Benfield  could  produce  no  proof 
of  the  fact ;  all  he  offers  to  prove  is,  it  was 
registered  in  the  cutcherry,  and  in  the  know- 
ledge of  the  borrower,  who  admitted  it.  What 
better  could  he  propose,  circumstanced  as  ha 
was  ?  what  other  was  possible  ?  the  only  ad* 
ditional  circumstance  that  was  possible,  must 
have  been  to  appeal  to  those  registers,  which 
would  have  ascertained  at  once  the  dates  oC 
the  transactions. — ^Why  not  do  that?  Be-^ 
cause  the  cutcherry  court  was  kept  by  that 
same  dobbeer,  who  was  taken  away  from  the 
possession,— what  became  of  him  I  do  not 
know,  or  his  papers ;  those  were  oat  of  hig 
power  to  be  proauced ;  not  being  able  to  pro- 
duce the  immediate  instruments  themselves, 
ho  applied  to  the  nabob  about  it.  It  is  said, 
what  the  nabob  says  is  no  proof.  Is  the  na- 
bob a  person  that  ought  to  be  so  treated)  aa» 
'  4  B    .     ' 


1155] 


19  GEORGE  nL         Pifdc^eihgi  ^gabut  C^orge  StraUw        \\  IM 


person  who,  if  ao  appealed  to,  would  sapcti^a 
falsehood ;  if  called  upon,  under  the  sanction 
of  those  solemnities,  would  he  hazard  telling 
a  wilful  falshood  for  the  purpose  of  a  preme- 
ditated fraud  ?  Is  there  a  man,  so  far  as  they 
are  acquainted  \«ith  the  circumstances,  that 
can  bnng  any  proof  to  warrant  that  suppo* 
sition? 

Therefore  he  offered,  so  far  as  appeared  to 
bim,  and  so  far  as  appears  to  me,  a  compe- 
tent proof  of  the  demands.  It  is  said,  it  was 
strange  proof  to  offer; — the  acknowl«)gment 
of  the  supposed  borrower,  and  the  evidence 
of  the  supposed  deed,  signed  by  that  b<N> 
rower:  to  combat  suspicions  of  the  truth  and 
Reality  of  that  transaction,  to  satis^  those 
who  at  that  time  suspected  all  was  false  and 
jfraudulent,  I  should  be  glad  to  be  told  who 
Were  those  persons,  that  expressed  those  sup- 
lx>si^ons ;  from  one  of  the  minutes  to  the 
other,  I  see  abundance  of  disputes  about  the 
iaabob's  title,  which  are  either  well  or  ill 

Sounded ;  but  if  there  is  any  part  of  them 
at  expresses  these  doubts  or  ideas  of  falser 
hood  it  escaped  my  attention,  and  I  had  the 
totisfaction  to  observe  just  now  it  had  escaped 
fiiy  lord's.  I  hope  I  shall  not  b^  mistaken 
from  having  said  so  much  upon  Mr.  Benfield, 

ior  his  claims,  as  if  I  felt  it  of  any  importance 
n  the  cause ;  I  have  been  trying  to  discover 
t,  but  I  feel  it  is  of  none ;  because,  whether 
those  proofs  did  satisfy,  where  the  proof  was, 

feOT  whether  it  was  judged  of  wjell  or  ill,  by 
wyers,  or  persons  who  were  ignorant  of  the 
rms  of  law,  or  orders  of  law,  is  a*question 
^hich  makes  no  part  of  that  you  are  to  de- 
ade  upon :  to  some  it  appeared  these  claims 
tvere  madmissible,  to  others  they  ought  to  be 
admitted.  This,  however,  is  supposed  to  have 
been  the  sense  of  the  whole  council,  of  Ben- 
field's  claims,  at  the  time  which  was  then 
particularly  alluded  to,  upon  the  29th  of  May, 
when  they  voted  them  inadmissible,  when,  it 
was  Mid  to  you,  it  so  appeared  to  all  the 
council ;  the  evidence  ot  which,  I  presume, 
tras  the  vote  then  rassed,  which  rejected  Mr. 
Benfield's  claim.  My  learned  friend  had  for- 
^t  that  vote  was  carried  bv  the  casting  vote 
of  the  president;  that  the  nmnbers  were 
equal  upon  the  question,  and  nothing  to  maJce 
a  muority  but  that  castins  voice,  which  the 
(resident  claims.  How  tar  that  claim  ia 
sanctified  by  the  constitution,  the  evidence 
faas  not  convinced  me,  nor  satisfied  me  it  b ; 
but  whether  it  is  or  not,  bjr  that  casting 
voice,  the  measure  was  carried;  notwith- 
standing whichp  the  very  minutes  prove  it  to 
be  the  sense  of^  an  equal  part  of  the  council, 
{bat  they  were  admissible. 

Mv  learned  friend  says  he  cannot  conceive 
by  what  xnajpc  it  waa.  after  Mr.  Brooke  had 
been  so  perfectly  satisfied  of  the  Justice  of  this 
claim,  upon  the  89th  of  if  ay,  he  should  by 
the  3d  of  Jqne  have  tot  to  a  doub^  whether 
be  had  not  committed  some  injustice  in  the 
vote  he  had.  so  given.  Mr.  Brooke  speaks  for 
bimself;  he  says  he  voted  with  the  presd^nt 


whenhe  imderstood  the questifln  is  due  sense, 
and  vot^  against  him  when  be  understood  it 
inadifierent  seBse;*  the  propriety  of  that  dis- 
ti|M;tion  I  have  nothing  to  do  with|  nor  the 
distinction  itself;  but  I  think  the  distinctioo 
was  not  irrational;  it  was  this,  when  he  oqq- 
ceived  Mr.  Benfield  #as  demanding,  and  waa 
insisting  the  Comnany,  or  the  governor  and 
council,  should  fignt  for  his  daim,  and  insist 
upon  a  subnus^on  upon  the  part  of  the  njafa» 
then  he  conceived  it  right  to  vote  with  the 
president;  but  when  he  found  all  that  Mr. 
Benfield  wanted  and  wished,  was  a  recom- 
mendation  to  the  xzjfh  to  attend  to  them, 
then  he  conceived  it  right  to  vote  against  tha 
president.    I  subscribe  to  what  I  clearly  sup- 
pose to  be  his  ideas  of  right,  wluch  he  sup^ 
posed  himself  to  be  invested  vrith.    I  should 
not  forget,  before  I  so  fit>m  the  obiectian 
against  Mr.  Benfielas  claims,  my  leameA 
fnend  desired  you  to  take  notice,  upon  read* 
ing  of  the  letter,  that  the  nabob  had  given  a 
different  date  to  that  transaction;  to  me  it 
seems  that  letter  and  these  claims  are  per* 
fectly  reconcileable.    If  I  understand  the  le^ 
ter,  it  imported  no  more  than  this;  upcm  a 
particular  day  mentioned,  he  had  given  a  ge- 
neral assignment  for  the  security  of  some  of 
the  debts,  the  commencement  of  which  doni 
appear.    In  point  of  fact,  if  they  commenced 
at  the  time  Mr.  Benfield  shewed  tbey  did 
commence,  thev  we^  antecedent  to  any  or- 
ders given  by  me  Compsiny  from  Enghuid: 
and  whether  the  letter  mentions  the  exact 
time  or  not,  I  contend  them  to  be  periect^ 
reconcileable. 

Then  you  are  told  the  0th  of  June  Mir. 
Floyer  arrived;  and  you  had  observatioos 
made  upon  his  conduct,*  which,  I  must  take 
leave  to  say,  do  not  mean  to  imply  lus  eoi^ 
duct  to  have  merited  reprehension  m  any  da^ 
gree.  Mr.  Floyer  is  supposed  to  have  affected 
a  doubt  of  voting,  not  having  a  real  doubli 
but  making  a  parade  of  a  dmibt  which  h» 
meant  to  g^  nd  of  by  and  by ;  and  upon 
the  13th.  his  difficulties  about  voting  were  di» 
minished,  and  his  ol^jection  turns  outjpcinci^ 
pally  to  have  been  that  he  had  not  time  to 
uxstruct  hilnself  in  the  merits  of  the  qoe^lioiL 
It  does  not  seem  unnatural,  or  unbecoming  a 
man,  to  doubt,  till  he  thought  he  understood 
the  question  properl  v ;  there  are  casea  where 
people  are  in  the  habit  of  doing  the  eontrsiy 
every  day,  and  votjng  upon  questiona  they 
don't  understand.  I  am  glad  to  see  a  council 
belonging  to  the  East  Inilta  Company  was  net 
in  the  habit  of  doing  it  His  doubts  are  sup* 
posed  to  have  diminished  upon  the  IStn; 
then  my  learned  fnend  exnresste  a  dajrec  m 
surprise^  that  he  who  was  ui  insuucteoui  the 
merits  of  the  claim,  should  vote  for  rescindipg 
th|it  resolution  of  the  S9th  of  the  preoeding 
month.  Ifhehadrenudnedpetftctknautcr^ 
the  effect  of  the  question  would  Mm  beca 
precisely  the  same  as  if  he  did  ^ote ;  that 
miffht  be  his  reason  for  votkis;  at  first  as  ha 
dia;  fiirbewasuninstnictedaboiiltheiBMtf 


ilSTJ 


md  Men Jbr  Apomg  Lord  ftpa. 


A.  D.  1779; 


«f  the  quetlion. .  Afad.if  it  is  inaisted  and  x^ 
quired  of  a  man  to  TOte,  I  don't  know  what  a 
man  can  do  .better,  •  under .  those  dtcum^ 
atanceSy  than  so  to  vote  as  to  make  it  in 
efiect  just  e^ual  to  not  voting  at  all.  What 
Mr.  Fioyer  did  at  first,  was  not  voluntary,  as 
I  befi>re  stated,  it  was  minst  his  inclination 
to  vote.  Different  ftoflCf  it  is  stated,  had 
jdifferent  sentiments  upon  it;  he  then  atates, 
he  had  no  ob^tion  to  remove  their  doubts  if 
they  desired  it ;  Mr.  Dalrymple  is  of  opinion 
every  member  present  ou^t  to  vote,  for  it 
was  a  breach  or  the  Company's  orders  for  a 
man  to  be  there  and  not  vote ;  sir  Robert 
Fletcher  thinks  he  ought  not  to  be  compelled 
to  vote,  far  he  thinks  he  ought  not  to  vote  ,* 
hut,  as  good  luck  Would  have  it,  when  the 
vote  came  out,  it  disappointed  those  who 
wished  to  obstrua  it.  Su*  Robert  Fletcher, 
who  objected,  found  he  voted  for  him.  But 
his  vote  w^. equal  to  nothing  at  all;  his  vote 
only  made  six,  seven;  six  would  have  been  a 
miyority  of  five,  so  would  seven;  nothing  but 
Mr.  Floyer's  voting  with  tfa«  president,  made 
five  equal  to  six,  and  the  two  fives,  though 
equal  to  one  another,  would  have  been  over- 
turned bythepresidaiVs  casting  vote.  Mr. 
Daliympie,  with  great  precipitance,  sa^  you 
shall  vote.  You  shall  not  vote,  says  sir  Ro* 
hert  Fletcher,  who  perhaps  would  not  have 
objected  if  he  had  known  which  way  he  would 
liave  voted,  nor  woidd  Mr.  Dalrymple  have 
desired,  if  he  had  not  expected  he  would  have 
voted  iqion  the  same  side  he  did,  when  he 
would  have  made  five,  six.  Let  me  speak  a 
little  hire  of  whit  personally  concerns  the 
character  of  Mr.  Fk>yer;  I  cannot  suppose  it 
possible  for  any  man  to  give  you  a  clearer 
proof  of  innocence  and  impartiality,  till  that 
period,  at  least,  when  Mr.  Floyer  is  said  to  be 
affected  with  a  participation  in  that  measure, 
whiich  is  imputed  to  be  agreat  crime  in  these 
defendanife.  Mr.  Floyer  was  not  in  the  East 
Indies  in  1776,  at  the  time  of  the  claims,  nor 
when  the  daim  was  first  decided  upon ;  he 
was  not  in  India  when  this  was  brought  un- 
der a  second  Consideration ;  but  he  popped  in, 
as  ill  luck  would  have  it,  from  Europe,  just  at 
the  conclusion;  and  being  called  upon,  he 
gives  his  vote  upon  this  subiect:  is  vt  not 
clear,  beyond  all  tjuestion,  that  Mr^  Floyer 
must  stand  acquitted  of  any  share  in  these 
imputations  ?  it  must  satisfy  every  man  here 
of  fiis  innocence :  then  surely  T  may  be  war- 
ranted in  drawing  another  inference,  that  the 
same  people  siving  the  same  votes  may  have 
credit  given  tnem ;  and  it  is  not  unreasonable 
for  them  to  have  credit  given  them  for  sharine 
with  him  in  that  innocence,  which  belonsea 
to  him ;  andhe can  by  no  means  be  saidT to 
baVe  anv  share- in  that  guilt,  which  is  only 
assumed  and  pretended  to  belong  to  them. 

Gentleraien,  at  the  next  meeting,  it  was 
floid,  it  was  designedly  resolved  Mr.  Mackay 
ahould  have  preaudience  of  the  president, 
merely  because  Mr.  Mackay  had  given  notice 
^famotimtba^daybefoie.-  Ist&tacoirect 


Here  again 

I  appeal  to  your  memory,  and  my  lord's  in^ 
fi»rmation,  upon  the  subject  of  the  transaction 
to  which  this  observation  applies. 

Is  it  true  that  Vr.  Mackay  claimed,  or  was 
allowed  pre-audience  of  the  president  be- 
cause he  had  given  notice  of  a  molirn  the 
day  before?  'Hie  entnr  proves  this:  Mr. 
Mackay  had  got  to  the  length  of  making  a 
motion  the  day  before,  and  the  council,  upon 
the  consideration  of  what  passed  the  pre- 
ceding part  of  that  day  before,  agreed  to  ad*- 
joum  the  consideration  of  Mr.  Mackay's  mow 
tion  till  the  next*  da^ ;  the  cowicil  were  in 
possession  of  his  motion ;  and  if  decency  is  a 
term  appHcable  to  that  case,  there  is  more 
propriety  in  saying  if  was  indecent  upon  the 
part  of  the  president  in  thrustine  in  nis  mo- 
tion in  preference  to  one  made  before  him: 
For  any  person  now  to  stand  up  and  say  to 
me,  vou  shall  go  on  when  I  have  done^  seem^ 
not  less  indecency.  The  court  were  m  pos- 
session of  his  moUon;  there  was  no  inde» 
ceocy,  then,  in  dismissing  those  motions  be* 
fore  them,  oetbre  they  attonded  to  any  ^thef 
that  by  and  by  might  come  before  them ;  so 
thought  the  majorit^r*  smd  so  think  I,  and  so^ 
I  apprehend,  you  think. 

Mr.  Maekav  then  makes  his  motions;  upon 
the  first  of,  which  the  president  puts  the  pre^ 
vious  question ;  that  previous  question  being 
negatived,  Mr.  Mackay  makes  his  first  mo* 
tion,  that  is  carried ;  and  so  it  was  with  re- 
spect to  the  other  motions,  the  merits  of 
which  make  no  part  of  the  discussion  between 
us ;  they  appeared  to  Mr.  Mackaji  to  be  right, 
and  they  au^peared  so  to  the  majority  of  those 
to  whom  tne  right  of  judging  belonged ;  they 
concurred,  and  concurred  by  a  nu^ority. 

After  that  business  was  gone  through,  thet 
president's  pre^icKis  question  was  heard;  I 
cannot  help  bearing  in  memory,  when  I  hear 
talk  of  previous  questions,  there  is  a  great 
innovation  introduced  upon  the  practice  of 
the  Company  by  previous  questions. 

Lord  Pigot's  motion  -that  he  wished  Ui 
have  made  before,  was  made  then,  though  it 
was  of  a  sort  as  fit  to  be  made  then,  as  be- 
foire;  it  was  to  express  the  sense  of  that 
Board,  that  Mr.  Benfield's  claims  are  of  a  pri« 
vate  nature  :  Mr.  Mackay  was  kughed  at  by 
my  learned  firiend^  as  if  he  had  hit  upon  a  ridi*« 
culous  expedient,  in  saying  Mr.  Benfield^a 
claims  are  of  a  private  nature,  so  far  as  they, 
regard  Benfiekl,  but  public  as  they  regard 
the  nabob.  That  ridicule  don't  strike  me ;  I 
can  conceive,  if  there  was  a  sum  of  money 
due  from  the  nabob  to  the  Company's  ser« 
vants,  it  was  a  claim  which  involved  in  it  a 
question  wluch  concerned  a  prince  of  the 
country,  who  was  the  most  powerful  of  any 
in  that  part  of  the  Indies;— and  whether  it 
was  9rcii  or  ill  founded,  with  respect  to  him, 
concerned  the  very  beine  of  the  Company  ; 
but,  with  respect  to  Mr.  Senfield  as  an  indi* 
vidual,  they  were  of  a  private  nature*  if  ai> 
tually  well  founded. 


llB&i       ^  ^  GEOIOE  IIL    .'  J^oMrfMsp i^muf  George  &mum        [1169 


When  mvlearatdMend  had  got  thus  far ; 

says  he.  I  shall  pass  over  the  rest  that  con- 
cerns this  subject  upon  account  of  the  tedi- 
ousness  of  the  detail; — mj  learned  friend 
will  permit  me  to  remind  him,  that  if  he  had 
less  candour  than  he  has,  he  might  be 
suspected  to  have  some  other  meamn£  for 
passing  it  over^  than  up<m  account  of  the 
tediousness.  What  he  passed  over,  was  the 
explanation  that  matter  produced,  which  led 
sne  to  think  it  requisite  to  mention  it,  for  fear 
their  meaning  in  voting  as  they  did  upon 
those  motions,  should  be  misunderstood. 
Among  the  things  pro^sed  to  be  passed 
over,  one  of  them  is  this :  The  party  who 
were  the  present  majority  in  voting  for  those 
measures,  explaining  wliat  they  meant,  and 
what  no^  they  state  that,  for  fear  of  a  mis- 
construction, which  they  conceived  would  be 
the  case;  they>  to  obviate  and  put  an  end  to 
such  misconstructions,  tell  you  what  thqr 
meant,  which  was,  not  to  enforce,  but  recom- 
mend Benfield's  claims— not  to  enforce  them, 
at  any  rate,  without  an  order  from  the  Com- 
pany. We  meant  to  give  Mr.  Benfield  just 
the  assistance  he  requires,  or  a  recommenda- 
fion  to  the  r%jah;~if  he  thought  that  not 
sufficient,  he  could  sain  more  by  getting 
better  information,  if  he  thought  it  a  mea- 
agre  of  hardship^  it  was  open  to  him  to  ex* 
press  his  wish  that  such  hardship  should  not 
be  pressed  upon  him,  till  the  Company  at 
home  were  consulted  upon  it ; — but  without 
waiting  for  that^  upon  the  part  of  the  nyah, 
^  our  intention  is  immediately  to  recommend  it 
to  him  to  take  them  into  consideration,  and 
never  inforce  them  without  the  sanction  and 
«   order  of  the  Company. 

Here  ends  the  chapter  of  Benfield. — ^Upon 
a  much  earlier  stage  of  the  business,  about 
the  llth  or  12th  ol  April,  Mr.  Benfield  wrote 
to  lord  Pigot;  upon  that  day,  on  which  the 
rajah  was  put  in  complete  possession  of  his 
Cbuntry.  Upon  the  29th  of  May  the  busi- 
ness was  resumed ;  and  I  take  it  for  granted 
the  basis  of  lord  Pigot's  motion  was  against 
}lr.  Benfield's  claims,  strictly  in  the  words  of 
it ;  and  you  will  see  whether  I  am  accurate 
in,  both  the  parts  upon  which  I  am  now  ob- 
serving. The  14th  of  May,  the  Board  write 
tp  the  directors,  that  they  had  restoied  the 
r^ah,  and  that  he  was  put  into  possession  of 
the  whole  country, liis  father  bad  in  1769. 
Upon  the  29th  of  May,  the  terms  of  lord 
Pigot*s  motion  are  these  i  <<  Resolved,  That 
the  r^jah  of  Taqjore  being  put  in  the  full 

Possession  and  management  of  his  country 
y  the  Company's  express  orders,  it  is  the 
opinion  of  the  Board,  it  is  not  in  their  power 
to  comply  with  Mr.  Benfield's  requests,  in 
an^  respect;  those  claims  of  individuals, 
which  bear  the  appearance  of  having  no  con- 
pections  with  government,  not  being  suffi- 
cient] jr  explained  to  enable  the  Board  to  form 
an  opinion  thereon,  and  the  assignment  of 
the  nabob  not  beine.  admissible.''  Here  is 
Ibe  second  time^  acknowledging  under  his 


signature,  his  quitting  the  bunoen  of  Tui* 
jore^that  the  business  was  settled^  Upon 
the  5th  of  May  he  returned;  aadupon4fae 
29th  it  was  so  taken  formnted  as  settled, 
andthatwashisbaststobuudupon;  and  the 
business  I  last  stated  of  Beofield's  chums 
were  at  an  end  from  that  moment,  as  is 
proved  bv  the  minute  slating  an  explanxtioa 
of  it,  which  bears  date  the  17th  of  June. 
Those  circumstances  were  got  rid  o^  the 
nyah  was  restored,  and  there  existed  no  rea^ 
son  why  the  rest  of  the  Company's  orden 
should  not  be  carried  into  eaecution.  The 
Company's  orders  were,  that  the  commitlee 
which  they  had  appointed  of  certain  personsL 
of  whom  Mr.  Russel  was  <»ie,  should  prooeed 
upon  the  business  of  the  northern  ctrcai% 
and  the  Jaghire  lands;  *  when  the  business  of 
Tamore  was  settled,  the  commitlee  shall  pro- 
ceed to  the  Northern  Circars;'  that  is  in  the 
letter  frt)m  the  Company,  theur  precise  or- 
ders upon  the^sul^ject. 

But,  says  the  gentleman,  by  the  tenns  of 
those  orders,  this  committee  of  circuit  shsJl 
not  proceed  upon  the  business  of  the  Northern 
Circars,  till  the  business  of  restmng  the  ntiah 
of  Tai^ore  to  his  nyahship  be  settled ;  nor 
did  anv  body  propose  they  should  proceed 
upon  tnat  business  till  it  was  settled,  which 
was  subsequent  to  this  date  upon  which  knd 
Pigot  states  the  business  of  the  rajahship  to 
be  completely  at  an  end,  and  the  rajah  pos- 
sessed of  all  his  ancestors  were  possessea  o^ 
and  so  completely,  that  any  claims  upon  that 
country  were  barred,  and  we  can  give  no  as- 
sistance to  those  claims ;  then  the  whole  hi^ 
siness  was  determmed  at  that  period.  This 
motion  is  proposed  afterwards,  to  send  those 
gentlemen  upon  the  business  on  the  exami- 
nation of  the  Northern  Circars.  It  b  stated, 
that  cannot  be  done  yet,  that  this  *  object  of 
the  Company's  orders  was  not  so  important 
as  their  nrst  object;  that  the  first  object  was 
to  restore  the  rush  to  his  country  and  reve. 
nues ;  the  second  object  was  to  make  a  some* 
thing  of  a  territory  which,  under  proper  <h- 
rection  and  management,  might  be  produc- 
tive of  a  vast  revenue.'  This  was  naturally 
therefore  the  second  object  to  be  attended 
to.  At  the  head  of  this  committee  was  Mr. 
Russel,  whom  the  gentlemen  proposed  to 
send  upon  that  errand.  All  theyr  wanted, 
says  the  gentleman,  was  to  get  rid  of  Mr. 
Russel ;  and  Mr.  Mackay,  who  was  to  Inve 
gone,  got  himself  ill.  Mr.  Russel  is  a  youiit 
man  in  full  vigor,  possessed  in  his  own,  ana 
my  mind  too,  of  a  competent  understanding 
for  the  purpose  of  such  a  commission ;  there 
was  no  excuse  made  by  him,  nor  by  any  body^ 
for  him.  Mr.  Mackay  is  an  old  man  tamed 
of  seventy,  apparently  infirm,  and  incapable 
of  goii^  through  the  fioigues  of  the  journey. 
Lora  rigot  htu  justice  enoueh  to  admit  of 
the  propriety  of  Mr.  Macka^s  claim  to  be 
excused,  therefore  he  proposed  that  he  should  • 
be  excused ;  to  which. the  whole  conncii  mmk 
voce  consent,   I  cannot  coneeive  anjaifi^ 


1161] 


mi  affttr*i  Jor  i^fotii^  Lord  P^. 


A.  O.  1779. 


Iiiet 


awDt  cail  be  dtawn  from  aiivtlttn|  respecting 
tbe  situation  of  Mr.  Russel  or  Mr.  Mackay^ 
apf^icable  to  the  question :  whether  the  mea- 
siil«B  of  4he  Circars  were  rieht  or  wrong,  that 
cxrcumstance  affords  abundance  of  justifica- 
tion g(  all  the  fbrmer  measures.  That  cer- 
tainly was  a  business  to  be  more  attended  to 
by  Mr^  Russel,  than  the  circumstance  of 
teavinff  his  friends  in  the  minority  or  majo- 
rity. It  seems  to  have -bean  better  worth 
Mr.  Russel'S'  attention  than  that,  especially 
when  one  sees  whether  Mr.  Russel  was  ab- 
eent  or  present,  it  would  make  but  four  to 
tiiree,  or  five  to  seven  at  the  utmost,  as  he 
was  in  the  minority ;  which  shews  the  de- 
jfendants,  and  those  who  thought  with  iJiem. 
were  in  the  right,  and  those  who  opposed 
them,  were  so  far  in  the  wrong,  that  the 
-absence  of  Mr.  Russel  or  Mr.  Mackay  could 
make  no  difterence.  This  brings  us  to  the 
peiiod  when  colonel  Stuart'sletter  was  taken 
into  consideratioD.  It  was  said,  colonel  Stuart 
was  proposed  to  go  toTanjore,  at  a  time  when 
his  interest  and  Mr.  Russel's  seemed  to  be 
incompatible,  and  they  were  not  to  be  in- 
inistea  to  go  with  each  other;  and  the  idea 
of  sendinc  colonel  Stuart  to  Tanjore,  was 
taken  up  tor  the  purpose  of  defeating  the  idea 
of  sending  Mr.  Russel  to  Tanjore,  or  the  pur- 
pose' of  counteracting  the  sending  Mr.  Russel 
to  Tanjore. 

.  The  dates  do  not  very  well  correspoud  with 
that  idea;  for  on  the  SSdjof  the  month,  col. 
Stuart  wrote  his  letter  to  sir  Robert  Fletcher, 
which,  on  the  35th  of  the  month,  sir  Robert 
Fletcher  presented  to  the  council,  expressing 
Mr.  Stuart's  idea  of  the  propriety  of  removing 
him  from  Velore,  where  he  was  appointed  to 
command,  to  Tanjor^,  where  he  wished  to  be 
appointed  to  command. 
«  The  terms  of  that  letter  seem  to  me  not 
very  fairly  commented  upon,  when  it  is  said, 
that  upon  the  part  of  col,  Stuart  he  hftd  an 
improper  .object  in  view;  he  stales  hisKa- 
som^  tor  desiring  to  leave  Velore,  and  go  to 
Tanjore,  which  are  that,  in  his  opinion.  Tan- 
jore was  the  more  important  command,  that 
it  was  the  most  dangerous,  and  that  there 
was  the  most  difficulty;  he  does  not  express 
himself  in  that  letter  in  those  terms,  but 
speaks  o^  it  as  the  most  important  at  that 
crisis,  of  any  under  that  presidency. — A  few 
days  after,  at  the  proceedings  of  the  next 
committee  subsequent  to  the  one  where  this 
letter  was  read,  it  appeared  he  meant  to  allude 
to  what  he  had  heard  in  some  correspondence 
of  an  earlier  date^  in  respect  to  information 
said  to  be  received  upon  the  coast,  that  the 
French  had  landed  a  thousand  troops,  and 
more  were  expected ;  that  Hyder  Aly,  the 
supposed  friend  of  France,  and  enemy  of  ^is 
country^  was  in  motion  at  the  head  of  the 
Marattas,  advancing  towiuds  Tanjore  to  at- 
tack the  rajah,  who  was  one  of;  the  original 
Gentoo  princes  of  that  country :  this  was*  the 
daneer  Mr.  Stuart  alluded  to,'  when  he  speaks 
of  tae  crisis.:  therefore  he  concdved,  firom 


that  cireumstance,  there  was  a  necessity  for 
more  troops  being  employed  at  Tanjore ;  he 
thought  that  was  sufficient  knowledge  to  de- 
termitie  upon  which  was  a  post  of  Uie  most 
difficult^r  and  importance,  be  thought  that 
near  which  the  en^my  might  be  placed  more 
dangerous,  from  the  resistatice  to  that  ene- 
my, which  made  it  of  more  difficul^  ^nd  im- 
portance than  any  thing  he  could  do  at 
Velore.  Tiiis  explanatioir  is  agreeable  to  the 
sense  of  his  letter,  and  was  the  ground  of 
his  application.  This  had  passed  upon  the 
95th  of  June :  upon  the  98ih  of  June  is  ano« 
ther  entnr,  which,  for  the  sake  of  correctness^ 
I  called  for  to  be  read,  though  I  mieht  have 
forborne  so  to  have  done,  if  I  had  l>een  in- 
dined  to  have  taken  advantage  of  my  learn* 
ed  friend's  statement  of  it ;  he  supposed  the 
transaction  to  have  been  on  the  8th  of  July ; 
it  was,  in  truth,  the  transaction  of  the  98th 
of  June.  I  have  stated  before,  on  the  95th 
of  June,  was  the  first  intimation  at  the  boftrd, 
that  Mr.  Stuart  wished  to  be  sent  to  Tanjore, 
or  »r  R.  Fletcher  wished,  or  any  body  else 
to  send  him  *  that  letter  lay  upon/ the  table  i 
three  days  after  that,  was  the  first  wish  loitl 
Pigot  expressed  to  send  any  body  else'  to 
Tanjore;  the  resolution  moved  is^  that  a 
chief  atid  council  may  be  appointed  to  be  at 
Tanjore ;  that  Mr.  Russel  may  be  that  chief; 
that  the  ngah  has  desired  it ;  that  it  might  be 
the  means  of  openine  investments  m  hitf 
country;  and  the  president  is  of  opinion  the 
Company  will  r  derive  an  advantage  by  it,  as 
it  wfll  afibrd 'the  most  eligible  means  of 
conveying  to  the  settlement,  some  part  of 
the  surplus  which  may  arise  out  of  tne  four 
lacks  ot  pagodas  which  the  rajah  was  to  pay 
annually :  and  this  motion  was,  in  the  upshot 
of  it,  adjeumed ;  but  previous  to  that,  yon 
will  permit  me  to  observe,  that  sir  R.  Fletcher 
moved'  the  previous  Question  upon  this  mo» 
tion ;  which  the  president  refueed  to  put,  say- 
ing, <<  previous  questions  were  innovations.'' 
It  is  wonderfiil  that  upon  the  98th  of  June, 
that  circumstance  should  escape  the  memoiy 
of  the  president ;  for  if  that  was  an  innova- 
tion, he  had  introduced  an  innovation  him- 
self; a  fortnight  before  he  had  put  a  previ- 
ous question  himself,  and  for  ought  appears, 
he  had  put  the  first  previous  question  ever 
put  in  that  country.  That  it  was  an  innova* 
tiony  seems  to  be,  of  course,  a  strange  objec- 
tion to  come  from  the  m6uth  it  did.  In  his 
abstaining  from  putting  the  main  question^ 
therefore,  in  the  upshot  of  the  business,  that 
subject  was  adjourned  from  that  day,  to  a 
iutore  day,  to  the  8th  of  July ;  upon  the  8th 
of  July  this  question  was  again  resumed,  the 
motion  put  and  ne^tived.  and  reasons  were 
given  for  that  negative ;  ir  it  were  necessary 
to  give  those  reasons,  I  could  state  them ;; 
but,  I  confess,  T  donH  feel  them  necessary ; 
but,  it  seems  to  me  as  if  it  should  decide  Uiat; 
the  majority  were  of  opinion  against  the 
measure,  it  belonged  to  them  to  decide  it,  and 
unless  some  p^son  bad  suggested  any  ttainf 


tI6S] 


10^,t|fiORa£  m.    /    Jhrdceedingi  agOad  Gwrge  ShaUan        [llfli 


to  induce  yeu  t»  think  they  were  wrongs  it 
ought  to  be  taken  for  granted  that  they  were 
right.  The  motion  was  for  a  president  and 
council  t»  reside  at  Taiyore ;  it  ¥ras  said  the 
rajah  had  desired  it ;  the  party*  hr  whom  I 
am  of  counsel,  were  informed,  the  rajah  did 
not  desire  it ;  who  was  best  or  worst  in- 
formed, is  not  a  part  of  this  cause  sufficient 
to  be  enquired  into,  nor  am  I  able  to  state  it. 
— They  were  informed  about  anothef  thing, 
in  which  they  are  not  mistaken.  The  Com- 
pany had^  in  express  terms,  disclaimed  de- 
riving any  peissonak  advantage  from  the  re- 
volution at  Tanjore ;  they  lutd,  by  their  or- 
ders, pointed  out,  ^  You  are  to  keep  a  garrison^ 
and  get  firom  the  country  what  is  sufficient 
to  pay  the  garrison  expences^;  we  do  not  wish 
to  get  a  farthing  by  ii  and  we  will  not  ha^e 
it  so/ — ^Lord  Pi^t  proposed  to  employ  the 
surplus  of  these  tour  lacks  of  pagodats,,8tipu* 
laied  for,  sM^te^- defriiying  the  expences  of  the 

rris6n,<iniin!ve61meiits,  however  that  might 
contrary  ta  the  terms  that  entitled  vie 
fajah  to  have  an  account-  of  the  actual  ex^ 
pente  of  the  garrison ;  he  was  und^r  obligsr^ 
tioRs  to  make  up  the  sum  if  it  was  iasuf< 
ficient,  and  dot  to  give  mere  than  was-  suf- 
icient ;  for  that  beiMwed  to  him,  and  ought 
iu>t  to  be  the  subjectm  investments  for  any 
furpose  whatsoever. 

This  was  the  nature  «f  their  objections  I  td 
tne  they  seem  to  be  bottomed  injustice^  and 
attention  to  the  orders  of  the  Company }  and 
they' are  bottomed  in  good  sense  and  sound 
^screlion*  Upon  that  sut^ject  ihey  differed. 
Thia  iTM  the  first  mentioning  of  sending  a 
cbJ»f  and  council  to  Tanjore ;  it  was  moved 
thtti^  that  Mr.  Russel  should  be  appomted 
fttsidlent  at  Tai^re;  that  was  negatived. 
Then  it  was  aftrawards  itioved,  Mr.  .JEtnssel 
ihOttid  set  out  upon  the  c6mmittee  of  circiklit, 
aoA  carried;  here,  then,  vou  will  have 
thought  that  objection  should  have  dropt  j 
because  a  negative  was  put  upon  the  idea  of 
^eadingt  him  to-  Tai^jore,  andf  the  res^ution 
afinned  reifpecting  the  pro]^et;r  of  aending 
hkn  upon  the  committee  of  circuit :  hpwever^ 
upon  the  9th  of  Adgust,  the  motioh .  wais 
again  renewed  t^at  Mr.  iUlssel  be  permitted 
to  go  to  Ta^jegre,  the  motion  agSsn  nega* 
tivcS,  that  Mr.  Russel  shodd  not  go.  Then 
it  was  again  moved^ilpon  the  19th^  that  Mr. 
RuSsel  maybe  permitted  to  go* to  Tanjore, 
for  a  few 'days ;  m  the  discussion  of  that  mo^ 
tton,  there  occurs  a  very  singular  conversa- 
^n,  and  a  ve^y  extraordiiQary  point  is  plfesscd 
and  insisted  upon,  hjf  the. president,  whi<^  I 
do  not  know  how  to  jUBtiiy.  It  is  this, '  m^ess 
yon  give  me  vour  assent  to  this  motion  of 
iiMne,I  wil}  ohstrnct^e  execution  of  your 
instructions  to  col.  $tuart ;  which  is  not  a 

riotion  of  youk'S,  but;  a  resohition  of  yours, 
win  not  permit  col.  Stuart  to  go  to  Taq^ 
lore,  unless  you  permit  Mr.  Russel  te  ed 
likewiae.?  What  right  had  he  to  <}ualifv  the 
tote, which  had  passed  f  because  iic  voU  We 
jfiik9.  ara  Us  o^reasQiis,  which  remain  fer 


him  to  explain.:  howeveryin  IhialM  persist 
ed,  and  imxk  it  was  rec^uested  he  might  g6 
for  a  few  days.    Was  it  veiy  unreasonabby 
upon  the .  part  of  the  defendaotts,  to  resist  a 
measure  so  earnestly  pressed  as  that  of  scald- 
ing Mr.  Rus^l  there?  what  was  Mr.  Bussel 
to  do  there,  for  a  few  days }  not  fin*  the  pur- 
pose for  which  he  original^  proposed  to  send 
nim  there,  but  he  was  to  go  there,  at  all 
events,  either  wkh  or  without  a  council ;  it 
was  for  some  pwpose  that  was  to  be  dis- 
patched within  a  few  days ;  when  that  effint 
was  made,  I  don't  mean  to  say  they  acted  ub- 
consistently   in  resisting  it;  the    measure 
being  pressed  for  sending  him  at  all  events 
for  A.  re#  days,  created  m  the  minds  of  me^ 
who  had  got  to  the  Ibngth  of  being  so  heat- 
ed; a  stroneer  opposition,  and  they  thought 
it  more  and  more  their  duty  to  resist;  the 
reason   asdened  for    sending    Mr.    Rusail 
there  for  a  tew  days,  was  prefaced^  by  being 
staled  by  my  learned  friena,  as  perfmly  <^ 
vious.    It  is  not  obvious  to  me ;  I  have  no 
coi^ture  what  b  meant ;  what  would  have 
heien  the  conseouence  if  col.  Stuart  had^gone 
there  and  Mr.  Itussel  not?  Says  my  friend^ 
the  n^'s  spirits  would  have  sunk;  vrhereas 
if  he  were  aasured  of  protection  by  a  persoa 
from  the  governor,  which  would  shew  ht 
was  not  abandoned,  then  the  nyah*s  spirits 
would  have  risen. — ^If  that  assurance  was  ef 
so  much  importance  to  the  rajah*8  spirits, 
could  noi  that  have  been  done  by  a  letter  f 
coidd  not  that  explicit  assurance  be  conveyed 
to  him,  without  sending  Mr.  Russel  to  gqik 
vey  it?  It  was  strange  to  hear  it  said  it  was 
a  very  obvious  one,  and  that  I  should  ndl 
have  found  it  out  till  I  was  told;  and  it 
WES  Stranger  to  desire  me  to  assent  to  it 
now  I  am  told  that  thjb  was  a  necessary  ine»> 
sure,  the  sending  Mr.  Russel  there,  to  Ixep 
up  this  rajah's  spmtS|  if  it  was  only  ibra 
fow  days. 

In  <»raer  to'  avoid  breaking  in  upon  tiie  story, 
you  are  to  understand,  however,  pending  thcae 
proceedings^  of  which  Mr.  Russel  was  chiefly 
the  ol^ec^  there  were  others  in  winch  colonel 
Stuart  was  chie^y  the  object,  whose  incBnar 
tion  wsa  first  suggested  upon  the  S5th  of 
June ;  and  upon  1m  9th  of  July  he  got  lo  be 
appointed,  by  a  majority,  t6  the  cornmand  of 
Tanjore;  he  was  immediately  informed  bjr  a 
pubhc  order,  that  he  must  prepare  himsen  to 
eo;  upon  the  :M>th  of  the  same  month  «f 
July,  sir  R.  Pletcher  prepared  the  drali  for  his 
conduct,  whilst  he  ronained  therd.  Upoa 
the  19th  of  August,  Mr.  Floyer  moved,  tnal 
the  iniftructions  to  col.  Stuart  miflht  be  taken 
into  consideration ;  and  required  uie  preadeat 
to  put  the  question. 

Gentlemen;  those  instructions  were  not 
read,'  but  it  was  admitted  they  vrere  liable  t» 
no  exception'}  the  instructions  nbt  betaqftiMiB 
excmted  to,iior  now,  shews  they  were  smtahia 
to  the  occasion';  thonj^thejr  were  change^ 
and  the  first  instructions  bam^  withdrawn^ 
the. second,  were  substituted  in  their  ffaoa; 


1165] 


end  atkerhjor  dl^xmng  LoriPigoU 


A.  D.  ms. 


turn 


neither  one  iior  the  pther  were  oKjected  to  u 
improper.  They  were  fonned  into  a  <»ie»^ 
tion,  upon  the  motion  of  Mr.  Floyer.  Upon 
this  motion  of  Mr.  Floyer,  the  president 
peremptorily  refuses  to  put  the  question ;  and 
then  it  is,  upon  being  pressed  apd  reasoned 
with,  he  says  he  will,  at  no  event,  put  the  ques 
tion,  unless  tliey  will  consent  to  Mr.  Russet's 

Soing  to  Tanjore  likewise;  this  appeared  to 
ie  company  present  to  be  a  measure  of  vio- 
lence :  I  don't  wonder  it  should  do  so ;  it  ap- 
pears to  me,  that  he  had  no  patience  with  the 
question  at  all  t  and  I  think,  too  much  com- 
mendation, in  my  own  opinion,  cannot  be  be- 
stowed upon  one  gentleman  for  what  he  did 
upon  that  occasion ;  though  none  was :  it  was 
aqjoumed,  I  find,  upon  the  motion  of  Mr. 
Stratton,  itte  first  named  of  tiie  defendants,  to 
whom  it  occurred  that  a  farther  altercation 
upon  that  sulEyect  would  then  be  very  dis- 
agreeable to  the  president,  whom  he  thought 
•0  mssly  in  the  wrong,  and  he  conceived  that 
jpotning  more  was  wanting  than  for  him  to 
cool^  to  reflect  a  little,  which  he  thoiight  was 
accessary  to  convince  him ;  and  thev  would 
meet  the  next  day,  when  they  would  nave  an 
opportunitv  to  consult  him  again.    Upon  the 
next  da^,  they  met  again ;  Mr.  Floj^er  repeated 
the  motion  of  yesteraav,  that  the  Instructions 
to  colonel  Stuart  be  taken  into  consideration. 
Jiord  Pigot,  to  their  great  surprize,  declared, — 
what  ? — that  he  would  not  allow  the  matter  to 
he  agitated  I  that  was  a  most  singular  declara- 
tion,  that  one  can  conceive.— Not  allow  the 
matter  to  be  agitated  ?  if  one  is  to  understand 
the  import  of  that,  it  means,  I  will  not  allow 
the  matter  to  be  talked  of;  say  no  more ;  I 
will  hear  no  more;  call  another  chapter;  I 
will  hear  no  more,  upon  the  subject  of  send- 
kig  colonel  Stuart  to  Taniore ;  the  matter 
ahall  be  no  farther  agitated.    But  I  suppose, 
the  noble  lord  meant  no  more  than  this  con- 
struction which  he  put  upon  it ;  I  will  not  put 
this  question ; — do  what  you  can,  or  dare ;   I 
«hall  put  no  such  question;  this  is  not  in  the 
nature  of  a  previous  question;  though  I  my- 
self put  one  previous  question,  yet  I  objected 
to  sir  R:  Fletcher  puttmg  a  previous  ^estion, 
because  it  was  an  innovation. — This  was  a 
measure,  perfectly  competent  to  the  boards  for 
any  thing  yet  stated^  to  move  and  put;  this 
was  among  those  objections  durine  tne  whole 
time  of  my  being  in  possession  of  this  office, 
and  for  the  10  years  together,  formerly  and 
during  the  time  of  my  successors  and  prede- 
cessors, every  governor  has  thought  proper  to 
put,  and  are  daily  in  the  habit  ofputting  such' 
qucKStions ;    but  I  will  not  put  the  question  ;* 
mat  is  neremptory,  and  that  is  pointed.->It 
was  at  first  supposed,  by  Uiis  declaration,  that 
he  woukl  not  suffer  this  business  to  be  agi- 
tated, and  would  even  preclude  them  from 
entering  minutes  of  what  passed  the  day  be- 
fore ;   but  his  lordship  saidf,  if  they  n^eant  to 
make  minutes  of  what  was  done  the  day  -be- 
fore, they  might  do  it;  but  if  they  xpeant 
«ny  thing  more^  the  question  should,  not  be 


put.    Of  course  it  was  not  carried,  and  willi 
this  declaration  he  concluded. 

It  occurred  to  the  comi>any  present,  io 
think  of  some  means,-^without  depatting 
firom  what  they  took  to  be  (heir  clear  righ^ 
and  the  rights  of  the  Company,  and  tte 
constitution  of  the  Company,  and  without^ 
giving  way  to  what  ti^  insbt  was  totally 
unfoimded,-*and  thev  took  amiddle  measure? 
says  Mr.  Floyer,  I  will  collect  the  sentiments' 
of^e  several  members  of  the  BoarcL  fortheii^ 
coming  to  a  decision  upon  it ;  and  he  finds  0 
to  4  were  for  the  orders  to  cokmel  Stuart  ;-^ 
there  was.  in  short,  a  .clear  ms^rity  in  fkvoutf 
of  the  orders.— Then,  says  he,  I  think  of  an-« 
other  thing,  which  is,  we  wiU  all  sign  our  ap' 
probation^' those  orders;  they  did  do  so;  8<y 
that  the  sense  of  the  majority,  which  oouli 
not  be  easily  mistaken  after  what  I  havs 
stated,  was  then  entered,  by  the  actual  sigmK 
ture  of  those  that  approved ;  those  that  did 
not  approve  did  not  mterfere  in  it,  but  it  was 
in  the  proportion  of  6  to  4;'-thoi  th^ 
thought  it  was  at  rest  No,  says  the  presi^ 
dent,  this  will  not  do  neither :  though  you, 
the  majority,  have  signed  your  approbation  of 
these  orders,  I  mean  not  to  sign  them*  and 
says,  they  are  not  valid  without  him;  he 
says,  they  are  only  the  opinion  of  a  majority; 
and  says,  I  have  now  a  new  doctrine  to  come 
out  with ;  which  is  this,  No  act  of  the  majont  J 
b  an  act  of  the  government,  unless  it  has  my 
concurro[ice,  as  president,  and  my  name  to  it.  < 
This  is  gravely  to  be  insisted  upon,  that  a  mar 
jority,  whose  sense  is  taken  upon  every  que^ 
tion,  amounts  to  nothing ;  that  every  question 
which  should  dways  be  decided  according  to 
their  sense,  shall  be  nevertheless  so  perfectiy 
nugatory  and  ridiculous,  that  they  shall  be 
productive  of  no  one  act  in  the  world ;  and  all 
the  world  are  at  liberty  to  disi^gard  it,  because 
be,  the  soveriior,  did  not  happen  to  make  a 
part  of  t&t  majority. 

Gentiemen,  you  see  the  gradual  advance  of 
these  claims ;  they  go  step  by  step ;  the  first 
is  untenable,  the  second  is  more  so,  the  third 
is  so  preposterous,  I  don't  know  how  to  state 
it  To  this  state,  they  ^t,  and  the  passions 
of  the  company  were  a  littie  infiamecl ; — ^here 
again,  I  desire,  upon  the  part  of  Mr.  Stratton, 
it  may  be  recollected,  he  concluded  before,  by 
the  by,  with  a  second  motion  to  adjourn; 
when,  instead  of  moving  to  adjourn  to  the 
next  day,  he  moved  to  adjourn  fO  the  SSd, 
that  two  days  miffht  intervene  between  the 
heat  of  this  council,  and  the  hopes  of  the  next 
council,  and  what  was  to  follow  from  others  ; 
upon  the  22d,  afler  delivering  in  their  minutes 
denying  the  president's  concurrence  being 
necessary  to  an  act  of  government,  and* 
citing,  by  the  way,  what  appeared  to  them  to' 
be  good  authorities  fer  the  purpose ;  whether 
they  are  so,  or  no,  they  were  the  practice  in 
other  instances.  A  Mr.  Vansittart,  than 
whom  nobody  was  ^supposed  to  have  more 
abilities  in  those  affiurs, — and  that  was  like- 
wise the  practiceof  Mr.  Carticr,  who  succeeded 


116T] 


19  GEORGE  HI.         PfoteeJBngi  agnka  George  StnMtm .        [1 161. 


lunit  who  no  lesA  than  he  underrtood  the  in- 
terest, rules,  and  [xractice  of  the  Company, — 
Mr.  Vanuttart  signed  instructions  wnich  he 
disapproved,  because  he  thought  himself 
bouna  so  to  do,  agreeable  to  the  sense  of  a 
■ULJority.  This  appears  to  strengthen  their 
argument;  their  argumentappears  to  stand  in 
n^  of  no  such  strengthemng,  for  it  stands 
upon  its  own  bottom,  and  b  perfectly  irre- 
futable.— ^The  business  was  not  then  suffered 
to  pass,  any  more  than  upon  the  19th  or 
'SOtn ;  but  a  curious  device  had  suggested 
itselfi  as  the  means  to  be  taken  to  put  an  end 
to  the  whole  business  in  a  very  short  and  pe- 
remptory way  indeed.  Mr.  Dalrvmple, — to 
use  the  authority  of  his  name,  ana  the  infor- 
mation taken  firom  the  papers  which  I  ui^* 
derstand  to  be  his,  and  which  I  trust  it  is, 
at  least  as  competent  to  appeal  to,  as  those 

gublications  he  has  stated  them  to  come 
om, — taking  to  himself  a  due  share  of  the 
merit  of  the  correspondence,  he  sa^ s ;  During 
this  interval  we  were  not  idle ;  1  will  have 
you  to  understand,  we  contrived  for  all  possi- 
ble events,  we  were  at  a  loss  what  to  do;  it 
occurred  to  us  to  arrest  sir  Robert  Fletcher,  and 
try  him  upon  some  charge  of  a  military  of- 
fence; — it  occurred  to  us  again^  there  mi^t 
be  a  doubt  how  that  could  be  effected,  for  a 
nuyority  must  concur  in  a  warrant  for  a  court 
martial ;  and  as  the  majority  could  not,  this 
measure  mieht  be  ineffectual,  and  the  troops 

Serhaps  mismt  take  a  part  with  the  comman- 
er  in  chief:  we  might  find  it  a  difficultv. 
It  occurred  to  them  afterwards,  they  might 
do,— what  ?  What  they  did  afterwaras ;  that 
wasy  direct  the  secretary  how  to  act  respect- 
ing the  majority.  But,  says  he,  we  were  a 
little  puzzled  ;  we  hoped,  indeed^  they  would 
order  the  secretary  to  sign  it,  if  so,  he  must 
have  read  it,  aAd  possibly  th^  might  order 
him  to  sign  it,  in  the  name  of^the  president 
and  council.  If  so,  they  would  prevent  it. 
Mr.  Dalrymple,  I  dare  say,  could  explain  that 
contrivance ;  I  don't  attempt  it;  but,  with  a 
view  to  these  cases,  and  other  possible  cases 
that  might  occur,  the  president  was  to  be 
armed  with  preconstructed  and  previously 
prepared  motions.  I  am  speaking  from  in- 
formation of  a  pamphlet  that  comes  from  a 
quarter  in  the  knowledge  of  those,  who  know 
whether^it  is  so  or  not,  and  will  contradlA  me 
if  it  is  not  so.  I  am  now  statins  from  the 
authority  of  the  consultations  Siemselves, 
that  have  been  read  to  jou,  that  a  paper  pre- 
viously written  was  produced  upon  the  occa- 
sion; that  was  the  foundation  of  subsequent 
proceedings. — I  must  say  a  word,  however, 
upon  the  proceedings  prior  to  the  production 
or  that  paper :  it  occurred  to  lord  Pigot,  upon 
declaring  his  determined  objection  to  the  doc- 
trine laid  down  by  those  eentlemen,  ^hatthey 
might  make  a  proposal,  iSewise,  to  direct  the 
secretary  to  sign  the  order  as  the  order  of 
council : — in  &x  it  was  hinted,  and  in  point 
of  direction  to  the  secretary,  he  was  sent  to, 
and  told  if  required  to  sigaaa  ord^thatbe 


should  be  j|^stified  in  obeying  if  he  dune  to 
obey  so  singpilar  an  order  as  an  orderly  the 
council,  the  president  declaring  his  disappio^ 
bation,  and  declaring  that  vnthout  his  concord 
rence  it  was  no  act  of  govenament,  therefisro 
it  might  be  proper  to  send  these  ocders  to  the 
secretary ; — ^the  thou^t  was  no  sooner  sag* 
ffested,  but  it  was  given  way  to ;  and  the  gen- 
uemen,  with  the  suspicions  and  fri^ts  na- 
tural to  men,  who  had  two  days  before  inefiec- 
tually  endeavoured  to  put  an  end  to. those 
heats,  and  to  avoid  those  difficulties,  thought 
it  right,  as  it  occurred  to  them  there  could  be 
no  objection,  to  eive  an  order  to  the  secre- 
tary, under  their  nands,  for  him  to  sign  tlui 
proceeding,  as  in  the  name  and  by  the  orders 
of  the  council ;  they  all  declared  it  was  their 
intention  to  do  so;  they  all  concurred  in  the 
act  of  doing  so.    But,  when  they  came  to 
make  the  signature,  which  began  in  an  inverse 
order,  when  they  gave  their  votes,  it  wia 
properly  suggested,  to  have  the  juniors  sign 
first,  as  they  gave  their  votes.    Upon  tfaat, 
when  it  was  signed  by  all  the  majority,  as  % 
minute  of  their  opinion,  to  direct  the  secretanr 
to  sign  the  orders,  and  to  send  them  to  coL 
Stuart ;   the  letter  was  drawn  up  to  the  se- 
cretary, agreeable  to  that  resolution  :»the 
president  declaring  he  would  not  ^ve  such 
orders  to  the  secretary.    It  was  first  signed  by 
Mr.  Stratton  as  senior,  next  by  Mr.  Bnx>kew 
then  in  the  hand  of  Mr.  Brooke,  to  be  handed 
according  to  the  different  rights  of  those  upon 
the  spot^  to  sign  it,  lord  Pigot  takes  the  order, 
and  put  it  in  his  pocket.    There  was  some 
dispute  about  the  manner,  whether  he  sn^cb- 
ed  it,  or  took  it;  that  is  a  distinction  without 
a  difference.    Having  got  it;  now,  says  he,  I 
will  pluck  out  another  paper ;    which  paper 
contains  a  written  charge  a^unst  you  two 
first  signers;    you,  George  Stratton,  and  you, 
Henry  Brooke— In  signing  this,  you  have 
been  guilty  of  a  breach  of  your  duty,  and 
contempt  of  the  Company's  orders.— I  doa\ 
repeat  toe  terms  of  the  char^  exactly.    You 
have  been  guilty  of  somethmg,  for  which  I 
mean  to  suspend  you.  This  chaige,  which  Mr. 
Dalrymple  received  with  so  much  surprize, 
put  the  gentlemen  all  in  confusion  and  disor- 
der ;  they  had  not  sense  enoueh  to  know  whe- 
ther they  were  upon  their  heads  or  their  heeb  ; 
so  little  sense  had  they,  that  they  voted  a  sus- 
pension in  effect,  which,  if  they  had  been  in 
their  senses,  they  would  have  refused  to  do, — 
what  does  Mr.  Dalrymple   say  about  the 
measure  of  a4)oumment?  \  shall  remind  yoa 
of  that :  it  was  a  measure  of  his,  and  his  wor4 
may  be  taken.    I  dare  say  he  speaks  veir 
correctly,  there  is  no  doubt  of  his  veracity  m 
it, — We  had  been  previously  prepared  tor  it; 
we  supposed   that  would    be  the  measure 
taken ;   and  then  this  written  cluu^ge  passed 
by  word  of  mouth.  9re  teases,  which  vras  ia  a 
minute  before ;-— this  charge  surprised  them, 
and,  in  Ihat  surprise,  they  lost  some  advaa« 
tage  which  might  have  be«i  taken,  they  say; 
hut  I  say^  no;  whether  taken  by  surpiise  oc 


1169] 


and  others fjbr  deponng  Lord  Pigai. 


A.  D.  1779. 


fllTO' 


not,  men  not  passionate,  not  intemperate^ 
not  violent,  who  came  there  with  an  inclina- 
tion to  be  cool,  who  continued  there  with  an 
inclination  of  remaining  cool',  were  orepared 
for  all  events  properly, — how  were  tney  pre- 
pared ?— The  president  produces  this  strange 
charge,  under  strange  circumstances:   they 
were  so  prepared  that  two  of  them  moved  for 
an  adjoiumment  of  the  business.    That  ques- 
tion ror  the  adjournment  was  put  before  any 
other  question ;  that  motion  for  adjournment 
supersedes  everything ;  but  the  moment  that 
was  put  aiid  seconded,  no  farther  notice  was 
taken  of  it ;  but  the  president,  in  the  middle, 
puts  a  most  important  question  for  their  dis- 
cussion, and  that  question  must  be  first  put; 
but,  in  point  of  (act,  it  was  obtruded  in  a  way 
in  which  it  was  not  regular.    It  was  the  first 
motion  proposed,  before  lord  Pigot  had  reco- 
vmd  firom  his  own  surprise ;  and  it  is  some- 
thing rather  extraordinary,  the   gentlemen 
^omd  be  surprised  at  the  success  of  what 
tiiey  moved.    Lord  Pigot  puts  the  question, 
-whether  these  gentlemen  snail  be  or  not  sus- 
pended upon  the  ground  of  that  charge  ?   If 
the  motion  of  adjournment  had  been  put,  it 
'would  of  course  liave  put  an  end  to  that  sus- 
pension. If  therefore  the  formality  of  putting 
the  question  of  suspension,  had  been  gone 
through,  it  would  have  been  put  subsequent 
to  the  period  which  must  have  prevented  it, 
by  putting  the  question  of  adjournment  finst :  I 
beg  leave  to  say  the  question  of  suspension  is 
put  by  those  who  had  no  authority,  and  it  was 
perfectiy  nugatory  ;  and  tho^  gentlemen  left 
the  council  that  day,  as  full   and  entirety 
members  of  that  board,  as  when  they  came 
into  it  in  the  morning. 

That  their  conduct  was  not  such  as  warrant- 
ed the  charge,  is  clear ;  and  that  they  claimed 
a  right,  if  any  was  claimed,  equally  with  all 
the  rest  of  their  associates.  It  any  purpose, 
but  the  purpose  of  a  moment,  was  to  be  an- 
swered by  it,  the  charge  would  have  extend- 
ed to  all  the  rest  of  the  majority  of  the  coun- 
cil, is  equally  clear;  but  out  of  lenity,  it 
seems,  they  confined  their  charge  to  two  only : 
the  charge  was  ojoundless ;  the  crime  none ; 
they  had  done  no  more  than  their  duty; — 
they  were  perfectly  right  in  the  subject  of 
their  difference.  If  they  had  been  wrong 
instead  of  right,  the  motion  for  adjournment 
shoukl  have  precluded  this  motion,  and  con- 
sequentiy  they  were  not  or  could  not  be  in 
fUDStance,  and  in  form,  what  it  imports  to  be 
the  opinion  of  that  council. — ^In  that  con- 
dition tHe  council  broke  up. 

It  is  singular  enough,  but.  true,  thatin  the 
charges  oF  this  information,  this  character  of 
nieDobers  of  the  council  is  applied  to  them. — 
It  b  stated;. they  being  in,  and  continuing 
the  .character  of  metnbers  of  the  council  about 
tbem  at  the  time  they  are  usurping  the  go- 
wemment  of  the  country  and  seizing  lord 
i^^t : — ^I  will  give  the  special  pleader  more 
credit  than  he  deserves ;  it  might  have  slipped 
liicn,  perhaps  niore  by  accident  tbaa design ;— • 
VOL.  XXL 


there  theyare  so  described,  atod  truly  described, 
for  such  they  were.  Thus  the  business  stands 
on  that  important  day,  the  22d  of  August 
1776.  Upon  the  next  day,  the  23d,  two  inci- 
,dents  happened,  one  upon  the  part  of  the 

Srosecutors,  the  other  upon  the  part  of  the 
efendants;  both  of  which  merit  a  little  at» 
tention.    Upon  the  part  of  the  prosecutors,  at 
a  meeting  stated  to  be  in  the  afternoon  of 
that  day,  the  remaining  five  members  of  the 
council  were  resolved  to  be  suspended;   it 
being  taken  for  granted  Mr.  Stratton  and 
Mr.  Brooke  were  suspended  the  day  before ; 
and  one  of  those  five  members,  sir  R.  Fletcher, 
was  ordered  to  be  arrested  upon  a  charge  of  a. 
capital  offence,  and  to  be  tried  upon  a  charge 
01  mutiny;  the  orders  were  executed  in  the 
course  of  that  day; — thus  the  day  passed, 
upon  the  part  of  lord  Pigot  and  his  adherents. 
The  same  day,  upon  the  part  of  the  rest,  was 
passed  in  coming  to  resolutions  of^  the.  sort 
they  read  to  you;  first  the  letter  to  colonel 
Stuart,  giving  a  discretionary  order,  as  it  is 
called,  to  get  possession  of  the  fort,  to  arrest, 
the  person  of  lord  pigot,  if  he  shoidd  find  it 
necessary,  and  to  give  effect  to  that  measure, 
by  those  means,  which,  in  his  judgment  and' 
discretion,  should  occur  to  him  to  be  the 
properest  for  the  purpose :  whether  this  ofder ; 
of  tne  defendants,  or  that  by  the  other  party, 
were  prior  in  point  of  date,  does  not  stppear ; ' 
because  in  a  country,  where  the  usual  hour  of' 
dining  is  one  o'clock,  or  at  the  latest  two,  it 
makes  a  difference  with  respect  to  the  term . 
called  afternoon  from  any  otner  place,  as  may 
be  here,  where  the  hour  of  dinner  is  S  o'clock : 
3  o'clock  is  the  time  fixed,  for  one  of  the  orders; , 
and  afternoon  for  the  other;   the  hour  of 
dining  being  the  same,  it  does  not  appear  but 
their  consuUatiohs  may  be  acts  of  the  same 
moment;  which  was  first  or  which  last,  if 
any  priority  between,  nobody  knows,  nobody 
can  ascertain. 

Before  I  go  from  this  point,  you  recollect  I 
called  for  a  person  who  attends  the  East  India 
House^  for  the  purpose  of  knowing,  whether 
the  original  papers  were  here,  to  see  how 
it  stood  in  the  ori^nal  letters;  for  whether 
rightly  or  wrongly  informed,  I  am  informed 
by  my  clients,  to'the  best  of  their  recollection, 
the  c|2Lte  of  that  letter  will  be  found  to  be  8 
o'clock,  instead  of  3  o'clock;  whoever  re- 
collects the  difference  of  figures  3  and  8, 
knows  whether  they  agree,  and  knows  the 
extension  of  a  line  a  Uttle  farther  or  stopping, ' 
at  a  little  shorter,  makes  all  the  difference  be- 
tween 3  and  8.  The  original  letter  is  not  here ; 
I  don't  desire  it  to  be  taken  for  granted,  but 
the  fact  is  suggested  to  me  to  have  been 
so ;  I  have  no  proof  of  it.  But  as  the  copies 
came  home  authenticated  by  the  parties  them- 
selves, if  they  suffer  by  their  own  inattention 
folly,  they  must  be  content  to  abide  by  the 
consequences  of  it,  if  it  were  mat^ial ;  but  3 
o'clopk,  and  8,  and  afternoon  may^  for  aught 
appears  to  the  contrary,  be  applicable  to 
eitner,  which  cannot  be  denied  to  nie. 

4F 


1171] 


Id  GEOR)3E  m. 


Then  it  is  said,  they  came  to  resolutions, 
#hich  imported  to  be  an  assumption  of  the 
powers  ot  fipvemment;  they  came  to  the 
resolution  of  comniunicating  their  proceed- 
ings, to  the  eovernor  and  council  of 
fi^eal.  You  wul  observe,  in  the  progress 
of  this  business,  in  different,  penods^  on 
both  sides,  they  concur  in  the  Same  idea 
of  submitting  their  case  to  the  governor 
and  council  ofBeneal.  I  believe,  myself,  that 
idea  took  its  rise  nom  an  act  of  parliament 
which  passed  some  time  ago,  constituting  a 
liewform  of  government  for  Bengal,  amongst 
other  provisions  authorising  that  government 
to  interpose,  to  controul,  an4  direct  all  the 
rest  of  the  governments^  in  all  parts  of  India, 
upon  certain  subjects.  Whether  this  subject 
b  s^ch  as  they  might  interfere  upon,  is  not 


Proeeedingg  against  Gforge  ShraHptt        [lYli 

timents,  passions,  judgments,  wfakb  thdr. 
sense  or  nonsense  had  produced  unoog  them- 
selves ;  they  all,  to  a  man,  imanimou3j  coih 
curred  in  disapproving  all  the  measures,  the 
consequences  of  all  these  disputes  upon  the 
coast  of  Coromandel,  which  had  been  pressed 
upon  the  part  of  lord  Pigot;  and  tney  aU 
concurred  m  those  measures  taken  by  the 
present  defendants,  and  all  they  had  done  in 
consequence  of  those  measures;  and  they. 
concurred  in  a  resolution  absolutely  to  sup- 
port that  determination,  and  to  suppoit 
those  measures.  It  is  not  very  impertmeni 
to  add,  if  there  was  still  any  doubty^I  speik 
with  deference,  whether  my  lord  will  tniok 
it  is  of  sufficient  consequence,  so  as  to  bind 
and  preclude  the  agitation  of  the  questioa 
here, — ^the  Company  at  home  have  in  tenni 


dear;  the  gentleman  will  tell  you  it  is  not;    the  most  explicit,  the  most  concise,  the  moA 


be  that  as  it  may,  the  parties  on  both  sides 
might  mistake;  but  conceiving  it  right,  that 
they  transmitted  to  that  government  an  ac- 
count of  their  proceedings  from  time  to  time, 
h  most  certain.  I  desire  it  may  be  remem- 
bered, in  justice  to  my  clients,  after  the  trans- 
Actions  of  this  day  passed,  they  sent  an  ac- 
a)unt  of  thcu:  proceedings  to  take  the  sense 
of  the  governor, and  council  of  Bengal. — 
Here  let  it  be  permitted  to  me  to  say,  and  I 
will  prove  it  it  necessary,  the  governor  and 
council  of  Bengal,  in  consequence  of  all  these 
references,  approved  of  the  steps  ttJcen  by 
my  clients,  and  disaj^proved  of  the  steps  they 
had  been  encountering;  and  declared  the 
fullest  approbation  of  their  measures,  men- 
tioning all  the  exceptionable  parts  of  those 
which  nad  been  used  upon  the  other  side.  They 
passed  a  resolution  to  support  the  government 
in  the  hands  of  the  defendants^  m  wjhdch  it 
liad  been  placed ;  and  concurred  in  their  re- 
Jolutions :  and  give  me  leave  to  add,  wheiher 
the^  had  a  power  to  controul  bv  tiiis  decla- 
ration, or  the  others  to  be'  bound  by  their  de- 
cision, aye  or  no,  their  opinion  merits  the 
attention  I  ma  claiming  for  it.  It  is  an  opi- 
nion siven  by  Mr.  Hastmgs,  sir  John  Claver- 
ing,  Mr.  Monson,  Mr.  Barwell^  and  Mr. 
Francis,  not  general  Hudson  I  beheve,  but  it 
is  .an  opinion  in  which  those  five  people  con-' 
curred,  and  which  five  people,  I  believe  it  is 
pretty  well  known,  never  concurred  in  any 
one  opinion  in  the  course  of  their  lives ;  whicn 
five  oeople  had  been  distracting  their  coun- 
cils oy  every  species  of  opposition  and  vio- 
lence ;  and  which  five  people,  are  supposed, 
by  some  persons  who  have  turned  their  atten- 
tion to  this  subject,  to  have  differed  upon 
every  point  in  question.  The  circumstance 
of  their  concurring,  proves  they  were  not 
aware  of  their  difitering  upon  tJie  point  in 
question^  with  some  thmes  which  might  be 
relative  to  themselves,  ifowever,  they  agree 
in  this,  those  measures  insisted  upon  oy  lord 
Figot  were  perfectly  contrary  to  wnat  was  in- 
sisted upon  by  Mr.  Hastings:  the  fi)rce  of 
the  observation  consists  in  tnis,  with  all  the 


unequivocal,  and  the  most  unambiguous,  d^ 
clared  their  principles  on  all  the  points,  ia 
favour  of  the  defendants,  and  against  thi. 
claims  of  lord  Pigot;  so  that,  at  anyrat^. 
these  claims  can  i^ever  be  revived ;  these  kiodi. 
of  questions  can  never  be  renewed;  thecouo* 
cil  and  presidentship  there,  and  eveiy  where 
else,  have  now  a  clear  line  of  law  upon  the 
subject,  which  puts  an  end  to  the  revival  of 
those  kinds  of  claims :  whether  they  can  bi 
considered  as  declaratory  of  what  was  th|. 
constitution,  or  considered  as  only  dedaratoiyy 
and  enactive  of  what  are  to  be  the  fiituie 
constitutions  of  this  Company  /  or  if  these 
determinations  in  Bengal  or  Leadenhall- 
street  have  decided  upon^tlie  subject,  or 
lefl  it  open;  in  either  case,  they  are  mt 
authorities  for  the  purpose  to  whidi  I 
am  applying  them.  What  are  they?  the 
sentiments  of  men  very  distant  in  point  of' 
locality ;  uninterested  in  point  of  possessioa , 
Whether  the  judgment  of  those  two  bodies 
of  Bengal  or  Leadenhall-street  as  distinguished 
from  each  other: — or  having  before  dis- 
tinguished Bengal  where  the  individuals  were 
continually  difiering; — ^yet  all  these  persoof 
have  concurred  ,in  entertaining  but  one  opi- 
nion upon  tliis  question.  It  would  be  stranee 
as  it  seems  to  me,if  the  contrary  of  that  shouU 
be  taken  here  to.  be  so  clear,  which,  in  their 
judgment,  u'as  so  clear  in  the  way  they  hare 
decided  it  Considering  the  judgment  of  those 
who  have  decided  upon  it,  I  cannot  he  vdja* 
taken  in  supposing  credit  will  be  given  me 
for  the  observation,  they  were  acting  sincerely 
upon  their  opinions,  such  as  they  were;  be 
they  right  or  wrong. 

This  question  upon  the  87th,  my  leaiped 
friend  thought  best  to  conclude  with  saying 
what  lord  Pigot  had  upon  that  occasion  pnh 
posed,  was  a  wise,  sensible,  moderate  mea- 
sure, which  was  to  refer  the  dispute  to  the 
durectors :  how  wise  Uiat  might  be,  dependb 
altogether  upon  what  we  mean  by  the  worn 
wise. 

If  he  meant  to  say,  it  was  perfectly  wise 
for  lord  Pigot's  purposes,  or  jJerfectly  wisi 


4i£gcrences  with  respect  to  their  diferent  sen- 1  for  his  purpose,  ths  sense  of  the  words  de^ 


1173J 


tni  othertf/vT  depodng  Lord  Pigot. 


A.  D.  1779. 


[1174 


|>eiKl  a  little  upon  the  consec[uences  of  it,  had 
It  been  acquiesced  in.  If  it  was  temperate, 
it  depends  upon  observing  what  the!  apparent 
purpose  of  it  was;  tliat  it  was  sensible^  is 
another  repetition  of  the  word  wise,  which  i 
requires  discussion.  What  is  the  consequence  \ 
of  waiting  till  the  Company*s  pleasure  was  i 
known  ?  Lord  Pigot  must  have  teen  left  not 
only  in  the  possession  of  his  ofHce  and  the 
influence  that  belonged  to  it,  and  in  posses- 
sion of  the  support  he  had  then  procured,  and 
the  additional  support  of  what  he  would  h^ve 
proqired  by  that  means,  but  in  the  posses- 
sion of  all  those  claims,  and  the  exercise  of 
all  those  claims :  then  see  a  moment  what 
"the  condition  of  the  defendants  and  the  rest 
of  the  council  must  have  beeq;  lord  Pigot 
puts  previous  questions  or  not,  as  it  suits  his 
purpose  or  not ;  they  are  innovations  when 
proposed  by  any  body  else,  they  are  no  inno- 
^rations  when  proposed  by  himself; — ^Lord 
Pigot  puts  questions,  wrong  or  right,  when  he 
pleases;  he  refuses  to  put  questions,  rifht  or 
■wrong,  when  he  pleases;— lord  Pigot  claims 
'the  sole  right  of  agitating  questions  when  he 
pleases; — and  he  claims  the  sole  right  of 
talking  upon  them,  or  preventing  others  talk- 
ing upon  them,  when  he  pleases;— Lord  Pigot 
eXplams  himself,  by  stating  distinctly  as  a 
claim  of  his,  that  he  has  the  sole  right  of  con- 
curring orrefusing  to  concur;  or  insisting, that 
ivithout  his  concurrence,  the  acts  of  the  whole 
council,  exclusive  of  himself,  are  a  perfect 
nullity,  and  waste  paper^ — that  they  bind  no- 
'bodj,  and  relate  to  nothing ; — that  no  resolu- 
tion of  the  whole  council,  without  his  personal 
and  individual  concurrence,  is  any  thing. 
These  are  the  powers  of  which  my  lord  Pigot 
*  wisely,  and  temperately,^  as  it  is  said,  pro- 
poses these  gentlemen  should  leave  him  in 
'possession,  during  the  interval  necessary  to 
vrrite  to  Europe,  and.  have  an  answer.  Ibey 
who  think  lord  Pigot's  measures  wrong,  would 
of  coursp  think  such  a  measure  as  this,  would 
be  madness,  foUv,  ideotcy,  and  ruin,  if  they 
thought  it  their  dujty  to  insist  upon  their  own 
measures,  and  their  own  rights,  and  trice  versa, 
if  they  meant  to  abandon  their  own  rights,  they 
refer  to  his  measures,the  moment  they  cozisent 
to  the  reference  of  them  to  another  vear ;  they 
would  leave  him  in  possession  of  proposing 
'any  thinj  for  their  consideration,  and  puttine 
a  negative  upon  any  thing  they  proposed. 
I  suppose  the  noble  lord  got  that  idea,  from 
readmg  the  history  of  Scotland ;  when  certain 
I>ords  of  Articles  claimed  to  themselves  the 
Tight  of  proposing  and  talking  upon  any  sub- 
ject, and  It  was  reckoned  a  crime  of  a  high  dis- 
tinction to  talk  about  any  thin^  not  proposed 
by  those  Lords  of  Articles^  which  is  just  like 
the  clerk  of  a  parish,  insisting  it  was  proper  in 
bim  to  sing  to  any  tune  he  pleased,  hut  it 
would  be  criminal  in  any  body  else  :  perhaps 
lie  might  have  got  it  from  some  confused 
account  of  what  passed  in  Ireland,  which  was 
like  to  be  a  little  disputed ;  whether  the  par* 
tisuQoent  of  Ireland  should  talk  about  any  toiog 


till  other  persons  gave  them  leave,  by  bring^g 
in  the  heads  of  buls.  Unless  my  lord  Pigot's 
ideas  were  taken  from  the  one  or  the  othec 
of  those  ideas,  to  which  I  alluded,  I  protest 
that  I  am  unable  to  know  how  this  stranga 
proposition  got  into  his  imagination,  sub- 
versive as  it  is  of  the  very  principles  of  com- 
munity, and  the  participation  of  power ;  it 
amounts  to  nothing  more  than  this,  with, 
respect  to  the  Company  at  largc-^we  mi^a 
you  lord  Pigot  our  representative  with  a  fiil^ 
power  to  do  what  you  please ;  we  give  you  a 
cotmcil  for  the  purpose  of  having  somebody  to 
laugh  at ;  you  may  get  them  into  a  vein  of 
talking  something  for  you  to  laugh  at;  and 
then  you  may  tell  them,  they  are  not  to 
talk  any  more  for  the  rest  of  their  lives.  In 
this  case,  the  silence  impost  upon  them^ 
was  much  more  than  a  Pythagorean  silence  ; 
who  were  told  they  might  talk  some  time  or 
other. 

But  these  are  the  claims  that  are  gravely  in- 
sisted upon,  to  be  maintained;  they  cannot 
howeven  be  defended ;  it  seems  to  me  not  ne* 
cessary  to  say  much  upon  my  part  to  overturn 
them  all.  My  learned  friend  sayS|  this  was  a 
salutary  and  a  prudent  measure,  though  it 
did  not  meet  with  tiiie  approbation  of  those  to 
whom  it  was  proposed ;  lor  they  liad  engaged 
themselves  in  golden  bonds,  which  were  to 
come  firom  the  revenues  9f  Tanjore.  I  stated, 
at  the  outset,  what  was  the  utuation  of  those 
revenues ;  the  question  between  the  parties 
claiming,  and  the  parties  in  possession,  is  still 
open ;  the  party  in  possession  is  the  raiah  of 
Tanjore ;  the  party  claiming  is  the  nabob,  and 
a  Mr.  Ben6eld  claiming  under  the  nabob. 
Not  a  particle  of  unfaimes^  or  corruption  is 
proved,  so  as  to  involve  my  clients  in  it  If  I 
bad  asked  any  of  the  gentlemen,  af\er  they  had 

tot  back  again  to  abetter  temper,  whether  they 
elieved  Mr.  Stratton  had  any  uiare  in  those 
contracts,  which  my  learned  friend  hinted  at; 
they  would  have  told  me,  no :  they  did  not 

§ive  so  much  attention  to  what  they  consi- 
ered  as  slander,  to  make  it  the  subject  of  a 
question  of  that  sort.  If  it  were  my  case,  in 
spite  of  the  suggestion  of  my  clients,  I  would 
judge  for  mysdf ;  I  would  never  attempt  U^ 
prove  innocence  till  somebody  had  endeak 
voured  to  prove  me  guilty,  understanding  then 
that  I  act  wisely  and  rightly.  As  to  those 
*  golden  bonds,'  Lmake  my  learned  friend  a 
present  of  them ;  to  wear  tnem,  if.  he  thinks 
them  omamentfld — to  sell  them,  if  he  thinks 
them  valuable ;  or  to  make  a  better  use  of 
them  than  my  clients,  who  have  had  no  oppor- 
tunity of  making  use  of  them  at  all. 

Then  the  measure  taken  by  ray  clients  the 
next  day  is  impeached,  for  the  folly  of  it.  If 
my  clients  haa  been  only  called  fools  in  the 
course  of  the  day,  I  donH  know  whether  I 
should  have  given  myself  the  trouble  to 
engage  your  attention,  to  repel  it ;  but  when 
they  are  called  knaves,  I  feel  myself  a  little 
inclined  to  protect  them.  Let  me  see,  whether 
with  more  propriety  \beyt^re  ti^ed  fools  or 


1176] 


23  GEO£G£  III.         Proceedings  ^ama  George  Siraiion        £117€ 


knaves.  They  were  four  to  four,  if  they  sub- 
initted  to  Mr.  Stratton's  and  Mr.  Brooke's 
suspension ;  and  the  motion  was  carried  by 
the  casting  vote  of  the  president.  Why  do 
any  thing  of  the  sort  they  did  ?  Why  do  any 
thing  not  justifiable  upon  the  ground  of  neces- 
sity, when  the  object  was  within  reach  ?  without 
it  they  were  4  to  4 ;  bv  carrying  sir  R.  Fletcher 
with  them  they  would  be  five  to  four;  and  they 
would  have  got  rid  of  the  president's  casting 
vote,  which  was  still  controlable,  by  having 
five  to  four.  It  is  said  sir  R.  Fletcher,  though 
illy  might  be  carried,  for  when  ill,  upon  other 
occasions,  he  has  been  carried.  What  the 
state  of  his  health  was,  I  cannot  tell ;  but  this 
I  can  tell,  by  lord  Pigot's  means  of  getting  rid 
of  Mr.Stratton  and  Mr.  Brooke,  the  seven  were 
reduced  to  five;  and  by  the  absence  of  sir  R. 
Fletcher,  that  which  wouJd  have  been  five, 
amounted  to  no  more  than  four;  and  that 
ibur  themselves  might  be  annihilated,  as  in 
truth  they  were,  in  the. course  of  the  next  day. 
In  the  course  of  the  next  day,  they  published 
a  napcr,  imputable  to  sir  R.  Fletcher  as  an 
ofience,  and  they  signed  it,  and  concurred  in  it; 
that  was  the  ground  taken  for  suspending 
them  the  next  day.  I  believe  in  form  it  was 
BO ;  but  in  substance  need  it  have  been  so? 
tnight  it  nothavc  been  competent,  and  would 
it  not  have  been  competent,  after  what  had 
l^en  actually  practised  Iwlord  Pigot  for  the 
same  reason  made  use  of  to  reduce  the  six  to 
Jbur,  to  get  rid  of  the  four  like^se,  if  they 
had  signed  the  paper,  they  were  m  the  act  of 
signing,  which  nobody  but  himself  prevented  ? 
they  had  directed  it,  and  signed  a  minute  in  the 
book  ordering  h;  thcjr  stood  in  a  situation 
distinct  from  their  opuiions ;  and  they  knew 
▼eiy  well  the  fate  of  their  opinions  would  be 
their  own  fate,  if  they  had  not  by  their  vigi- 
lance taken  proper  measiu^s  to  repel  and  pre- 
vent it.  It  is  said,  in  this  extraordinary  cause, 
that  in  truth  there  was  another  gentleman  at 
hand,  who  made  his  appearance  the  next  day 
from  whom  they  might  expect  something  extras 
ordinary.  Gen^emen,  this  was  Mr.  Lathom, 
who  had  been  thfere,  did  not  attend,  but  who 
inight  have  attended ;  and  it  should  seem  in 
this  part  of  the  case  Mr.  Lathom's  name  was 
forgotten ;  and  in  truth  it  was  stated  as  a  griev- 
ance upon  the  part  of  the  defendants,  that  he 
had  no  other  oime  than  that  of  being  a  friend 
of  lord  Pigot's.  If  Mr.  Lathom  was  that  sort 
of  criminal,  they  had  no  sort  of  expectation  of 
assistance  from  him,  they  knew  him  too  well 
to  expect  any  thing  from  him,  and  they  did 
not  trouble  themselves  about  his  absence  or 
his  presence.  If  it  had  been  thought  of  im- 
portsb^c^  in  th/e  course  of  these  litigations,  he 
would  have  been  called  for ;  he  was  upon  the 
spot,  though  under  some  predicament,  from 
which,  it  was  understood  he  might  have  staid 
^way  if  he  pleased ;  he  was  the  chief  of  a 
subordinate  settlement  upon  that  coast,  and  he 
might  have  been  sent  for  sooner  if  it  had 
pccurred  to  any  body  his  presence  was 
material;  tbe  foll^  «f  the  measiire  therefore 


I  think  does  not  strike ;  but  the  rectitude  of 
the  measure  is  the  question  between  us^  not 
the  folly.  It  is  said  they  had  not  the  least 
violence  tp  apprehend  from  lord  Pigot:  I 
don*t  know  wnat  is  meant  by  violence ;  if  it 
is  meant  to  say  they  had  no  reason  to  expect 
lord  Pi^t  would  strangle  them,  hang  them, 
cut  their  throats,  or  poison  them,  I  believe 
they  had  as  little  ground  to  apprehend  that 
sort  of  violence  on  the  part  of  lord  Pigot,  as 
he  had  t6  apprehend  it  firom  them.  It  was 
not  in  the  apprehension  of  them,  or  any  body* 
the  conduct  of  none  of  the  parties  warrantied 
that  sort  of  violence:  but  they  had  this  to 
apprehend  from  lord  Pigot,  that  he  would  put 
an  end  to  their  poUticai  existence ;  and  that 
they  did  not  misapprehend  him,  is  perfectly 
clear  from  the  papers  produced  that  day ;  by 
the  one  of  those  papers,  he  puts  as  complete 
an  end  to  their  politick  existence,  as  they 
could  have  done  to  him  by  theirs ;  for  it  sua* 
pends  the  remaining  unsuspended  membeia 
of  the  council,  and  charges  sir  R.  Fletcher 
with  a  capital  offence;  which  supposes  he 
had  a  larger  share  of  guilt,  because  he  was 
threatened  with  a  larger  share  of  punishment 
In  this  situation  they  stood,  but  that  situation 
forms  the  question  between  us.  I  shall  now 
proceed  to  a  detail  of  the  subsequent  traosso- 
tions;  meaning  a^ain  to  revert  to  tt  for  the 
purpose  of  concludmg  with  what  I  shall  sulmni 
to  my  lord  by  and  by  to  be  the  real  question 
between  us — ^but  passing  over  it  for  the  present 
It  is  said  they  issued  uiose  orders,  in  cons& 
quence  of  which  lord  Pigot  was  airested;  ths 
learned  gentleman  says : '  I  will  not  state  the 
particulars  of  that  transaction,  because  nothing 
more  can  be  wanted  U>  excite  your  detestalioa 
ol  it  than  the  defendants'  own  account !'  Who. 
ther  the  defendants'  own  account  has  beep 
read,  I  don't  know;  if  it  has,  it  escaped  me; 
it  excited  very  little  detestation  in  me. 

Court,   No;  it  was  not  lead. 

Mr.  Dunning':  If  not,  that  is  not  the  war 
of  exciting  your  detestation;  and  my  learned 
friend  might  have  saved  himself  the  trouble 
of  mentioning  it  -I  am  sure  there  b  nothioe 
in  their  account  which,  if  it  had  been  reai^ 
would  excite  your  detestation  of  it  My  learn- 
ed friend  has  called  two  persons  to  speak  to 
the  defendants'  arresting  his  lordship.  l(r. 
Dempsey  was  produced ; —who  is  of  a  very  im> 
portant  character,  which  wais  alluded  to  fre* 
quently,  and  named  more  than  once^ — he 
was  produced,  as  a  witness,  to  say  somethii^ 
infinitely  important,  and  very  material  for  the 
purpose  of  explaining  some  part  of  the  duuse. 
who  is  this  Mr.  Dempsey  r  Is  he  a  sjen& 
man,  by  trade  or  profession  ?— A  postiuum,  a 
post-chaise  driver,  or  coachman;  who  has 
been  dismissed  firom  his  service  by  Mr.  Be&> 
field  with  a  horsewhip,  which  the  witness  aU 
lows  Mr.  Benfield  perfectly  well  knew  the  use 
of,  aqd  for  that  he  hopes  to  obtain  damages^— 
for  that  application  of  the  horsewhip  which 
was  applied  to  this  Mr.  Dempsey.  This  was 
the  person  of  importaiic^  that  evei;  bo^y 


1177] 


and  others  for  eUfodng  Lord 


A.  D.  1779. 


[1178 


to  do  I  don't  know  what  with.  I  protest  I 
know  as  little  what  this  imi)ortmce  is,  as 
when  I  beard  my  learned  friend  first  talk 
about  it.  It  seems  he  drove  for  Mr.  Bcnfield 
a  post-chaise ;  that  he  went  by  his  directions 
tp  colonel  Stuart  in  that  post-chaise ;  he  sa)rs 
that  *  colonel  Stuart  has  a  post^aise  of  his 
own^  but  whether  any  thing  was  amiss  with 
the  horses  I  don't  know ;  my  master  lent  him 
his  postrchaise,  and  1  went  to  attend  colonel 
Stuart/  This  post^haise  was  spoken  much 
about  by  my  learned  friend;  as  if  a  pos^ 
chaise  was  an  engine  of  torment,  as  a  piliory, 
or  a  pair  of  stocks,  which  a  man  can  only  be 
put  into  for  the  purpose  of  torturine  him ;  to 
me  it  operates  as  another  sort  of  idea;  for  I 
have  a  strong  inclination  in  my  mind  to  be 
now. in  my  own  postrchaise,  if  I  could; — but 
this  gentleman,  this  important  person,  and 
the  more  impor^t  personage,  his  post-chaise, 
were  ordered  to  attend  upon  a  particular  oc- 
casion. I  asked  him,  whether  his  master  had 
pot  the  reputation  of  keeping  the  best  horses 
in  the  settietneut  i  he  answered,  yes,  Sir.  The 
best  postrchaise  in  the  settlement?  Certainly 
Sip— And  are  not  you  the  best  driver  that  is, 
ever  was,  or  ever  will  be  in  that  settlement  ? 
Most  assuredly,  your  honour.  Now  i;eal]y 
and  truly,  j^ntlemen,  can  you  find  any  thing 
ver^  cnmmal  in  the  purpose  of  this  post^ 
chaise  beih^  lent  to  colonel  Stuart  to  convey 
any  lord  F^ot  in?  the  colonel  ^ving  bor- 
rowed it  ot  Mr.  Benfield^  who  is  proved  to 
you  to  have  the  best  ot  all  possible  post- 
chaises  ; — ^that  postrchaise  to  be  drawn  by  the 
best  of  all  possible  horses;— those  horses  to 
be  conducts  by  the  best  of  all  possible  dri- 
vers : — that  is  the  cruelty  and  severity,  and 
that  is  the  mischief  with  which  this  post- 
chaise  threatened  lord  Pigot  f  Really,  gentle- 
men, it  is  difficult  to  talk  gravdy  upon  such 
subjects  as  this ;  and  I  hope  I  shall  be  ex- 
cused for  talking  a  little  otherwise. 

Then  Mr.  Monckttm  is  called,  a  near  reUu 
tion  of  the  noble  lord,  who  expresses  very 
strong  resentment  against  what  he  conceived 
to  be  very  improper  treatment  of  lord  Pigot, 
ai^d  still  seemed  to  retain  his  tem])er  in  some 
measure ;  I  don*t  mean  it  as  an  imputation 
upon  him.  far  otherwise ; — but  it  was  for  the 
purpose  of  drawing  your  attention  to  the  just- 
ness of  his  opinions  in\he  manner  be  draws 
Ihem ;  yet  I  should  hope  you  have  not  the 
toiallest  inclination  to  draw  yours  from  his<» 
I  mean  with  res]^t  to  the  conclusions  he 
drew.  The  order  m  which  the  story  was  first 
told  by  my  learned  firiend  was  this:  Orders 
were  issued,  as  pointing  out  the  night  as  the 
^me  gf  execution^  and  assigning  as  uie  reason 
£>r  it,  that  it  might  be  a  means  of  preventing 
an  alarm  in  lord  Pigot's  family :  that  night 
was  an  hour  .of  deeds  of  darkness^  as  if  it  was 
impossible  things  could  be  done  honestly  of 
sately  in  the  msht,  or  that  such  scenes  and 
transactions  cnnSd  not  bear  day-light !  As  to 
that  of  avoiding  to  alarm  a  part  of  the  family, 
h  was  perfectlgr  ridiculous;  oa  treated  it  as  if 


he  simpoaed  the  night  would  be  more  alann- 
ing  than  the  day ;— now  I  djiffer  from  him;    . 
he  thinks  that  transaction  was  most  likely  to 
alarm,  when  it  was  most  unlikely  to  be  known. 
If  he  ever  submitted  to  his  removal,  intended 
by  them,  and  attempted  in  the  ni^ht,  whea 
the  family  of  lord  Pisot,  and  his  daughteray 
and  Mrs.  Monckton,  being  one  of  those,  wer« 
in  their  beds,  they  could  not  be  alarmed  by 
it.    If  they  had, found  next  momiiis  that  his 
lordship  was  removed,  the^  would  nave  beea 
told  where  he  was,  which  would  have  putsA 
end  to  any  fears  or  reproach  upon  the  scone 
of  that.    For  these  reasons,  it  occurred  it 
would  be  avoiding  an  alarms  therefore  they 
transact  the  business  in  ;the  night.  ProbaMy, 
if  it  had  passed  in  the  day,  they  would  have 
foimd  lord  Pigot  ¥dth  his  daughters;  wh# 
from  their  sex,  and  their  ignoraoca  of  |ha 
country,  m^ht  have  conceived  danger  wheie 
in  truth  there  was  none ;  they  might  notliasre 
listened  to   information,  they  might   hasy 
been  prejudiced  by  their  alarms.    But  why 
shoukf  they  chu9e  the  night?  Are  the  ni^ts 
in  that  country  quite  so  terrible  to  the  idio^ 
of  people  who  travel,  as  they  are  in  this  eaiua. 
try  ?  Po  niot  we  know  the  night  is  the  timt 
people  in  that  country  prefer  to  travel,  whea 
they  have  the  benefit  of  thib  moon  light  f 
Don't  we  know  it  is  done  in' colder  couatncs 
than  our  own  ?  Thi^  is  the  purppse  for  whack 
colonel  Eidingtoun  goes  to  colonel  Horoe,ia 
whose  custody  lord  Pigot  is  said  to  have  bceni 
— cu^ody,  did  I  say  ?  It  was  a  custody  of  thai 
sort,  which  Mr.  Monckton  truly  and  ftirif 
represents:  there  were  always  some  guait!^ 
whose  business  it  was  to  be  m  sight  or  BMt 
him,  to  prevent  his  going  firoin  the  situatioa 
in  which  he  was  placed  at  the  Mount  ;-wDot 
for  the  purpose  of  incommoding  him,  or  o^ 
fending  him,  or  keeping  4um  wm  sleeping^ 
eating,  or  talkins :  they  used  to  keep  at  somt 
distance.    Whether  they  did  continue  in  thai 
way  with  him,  or  with  a  moie  or  less  degreo 
of  attention,  according  to  the  more  or  less  i^ 
prehension  of  danger,  real*  or  intentional,  it 
IS  nothing  to  the  purpose.    My  lord  Pigol 
was  walkmg  in  the  viranda,  by  the  door,  fiw 
the  purpose  of  enjoying  the  cool,  in  that  vtiy 
night  ^nen  he  w^  found  by  Mr.  Monckton; 
woo  says,  colonel  Bidingtoun  and  mgor  Hama 
were  together  disputing;  colonel  EidingUNin 
informed  lord  Pigot  of  the  nature  of  his  coou 
mission ;  that  he  was  come  for  the  purpose 
of  removing  him :  some  servant  hearing  na 
more  than  that  he  was  to  be  removed,  awl 
kis  own  apprehen^ons  supplying  what  was 
deficient  in  nis  story,  came  and.  informed  hina 
that  lord  Pisot  was  mrhtiog  with  the  sokUers, 
who  came  there  for  we  purpose  of  removing 
him  to  Gin^ee.    Here  I  must  observe,  by  the 
way,  that.uie  names  that  have  been  used  m 
this  cause  are  a  little  difficult  to  remembery 
which  all  of  us  I  hope  shall  foreet  by  to* 
morrow,  but  to  dav  we  recollect  the  difoenoes 
sufficiently  to  find  the  servant  had  goft  thja 
name  into  his  mouth,  instead  of  the  nght  one. 


1179] 


19  tiEOR<j&  IIL         Proeeedhgt  ugamd  George  Stratum        \\V&i 


tfy  learned  friend  says,  colonel  Eidingtoun 
makes  his  appearance  in  the  night  to  execute 
these  orders,  to  avoid  an  alarm  in  the  coun- 
try ;  but  they  say,  their  intention  in  remov- 
kig  him  was  not  (as  lord  Pigot  expected)  to 
remove  him  to  Gmgee,  but  to  Chingleput ; 
and  I  will  take  their  word  for  it  that  they  say 
truth.  Not  to  dispute  about  small  circum- 
stances, if  this  circumstance  could  have  been 
made  any  thing  of,  I  should  have  thought  it 
would  not  have  been  a  small  circumstance : 
nor  is  it  a  difference  upon  a  small  circum- 
ctance  by  any  means  :  Gingee  is  a  place,  of 
«11  places  upon  the  continent  of  India,  the 
most  remarkably  unwholesome;  it  is  so  un- 
wholesome, that  instances  of  people  coming 
^ve  ^m  thence  are  rare.  If  tlie  defendants 
iiad,  for  a  moment,  conceived  an  idea  of  send- 
ing him  there,  whomever  they  might  have 
^und  for  an  advocate,  they  should  have  found 
none  in  me.  I  would  for  no  consideration  upon 
earth  liave  been  induced  to  prostitute  my  cna- 
lacter  and  abilities,  such  as  they  may  be,  to 
defend  the  characters  of  such  persons,  who 
could  have  the  thought  of  conveying  bim 
there;  even  if  he  had  been  the  worst  of*  all 
male&ctors,  they  had  not  a  right  to  do  that; 
I  should  have  looked  upon  them  as  the  worst 
of  all  malefactors,  ana  their  cases  to  have 
been  the  worst  of  all  possible  cases.  As  to 
Cliingleput,  history  says,  it  is  most  distin- 
foixshabiy  remarkable  and  notorious,  by  all 
tnat  I  can  learn  it  is  confessedly  distinguish^ 
by  its  salubrity — as  the  wholcsomest  Of  all 
possible  wholesome  places  in  that  country. 
These  are  the  traces  of  distinction  between 
those  two  places.  I  speak  in  the  presence  of 
a  great  number  of  East  India  gentlemen,  who 
know  both  places;  and  I  am  totally  misin- 
formed if  I  can  be  contradicted  in  the  ac* 
counts  I  have  given  of  either.  These  are  not 
small  circumstances,  they  are  important;  they 
decide  upon  the  whole  complexion  of  the  par- 
ties to  that  part  of  the  transaction  about  which 
we  are  now  differing.  Chingleput,  and  not 
Gingee,  was  the  place  which  was  the  subject 
of  those  orders  to  remove  lord  Pigot;  not 
for  the  purpose  of  hurting  his  health ;  if  any 
attention  to  health  was  the  consideration, 
it  might  be  stated  rather  for  the  purpose  of 
menmng  his  health  :  I  will  not  overstrain  it, 
I  believe  it  was  chosen  as  being  perfectly  un- 
exceptionable as  to  the  article  of  health. 
They  had  conceived  — ^where  they  were  in- 
formed I  do  not  know  or  care, — that,  in  con- 
sequence of  some  practices  of  Mr.  Russel 
with  the  officers  of  the  euard,  that  Mr.  Russel 
had  at  least  conceived  a  design,  without  a 
participation  of  lord  Pigot,  to  get  possession 
of  the  fort ;  that  was  called  a  disturbance ;  I 
dare  say  Mr.  Monckton  would  not  say  so,  if 
be  did  not  think  so,  but  Mr.  Monckton  said 
^at  was  lord  Pigot's  care  to  avoid ;  I  hope 
that  was  truly  stated  respecting  Mr.  Russel. 
They  apprehending  there  was  some  such  de- 
sign, some  where,  no  matter  where,  by  Mr. 
Eussel^  if  they  please,  or  imy  other  person,  to 


excite  commotions  amone  t)ie  soldiers,  that 
seemed  to  be  replete  wiSi  difficulties  that 
weVe  to  be  put  an  end  to,  to  prevent  their 
beins  again  brought  upon  the  carpet;  to 
avoid  those-  evils,  they  thought  it  best  ta 
send  lord  Pigot  from  this  house  of  major 
Home's  without  any  fortification  about  it, 
to  a  place  of  proper  safety,  for  Chingleput  is  a 
place  of  stren|;th,  force,  and  security ;  in  that 
country,  withm  the  limits  of  which  a  prisoner 
fiay  be  better  secured,  than  at  the  Mount, 
which  is  a  village  in  the  neijghbourhood  of 
Madras,  where  tne  people  of  ^hion  and  for- 
tune go  for  amusement, — ^no  fortification, — a 
place  mil  of  houses  of  pleasure ;  the  house  of 
major  Home  was  one,  lord  Pigof  s  another ; 
the  house  of  major  Lawrence  another;  of 
Mr.  Monckton  another. 

Mr.  Monckton,  in  stating  what  lord  Pigot 
said  or  did,  says,  upon  col.  £idingtoun*s  say- 
ing to  lord  Pigo^  Gingee  was  not  his  orders 
to  take  him  to,  all  they  wanted  was  to  re- 
move him  to  a  place  of  safety ;  lord  Pigot 
addressed  himself  to  the  soldiers,  apd  said 
he  desired  to  be  placed  in  his  own  fort, 
where  he  should  know  how  to  act :  the  sol- 
diers who  stood  round  him  were  silent,  and 
sud  or  did  notiiine.  But,  says  he,  I  am  con- 
vinced they  would  have  done  any  thing  lord 
Pigot  would  have  desired.  Now,  Mr.  Monck- 
ton will  excuse  me,  if  I  declare  to  you,  with 
all  the  truth  I  am  capable  of  expressing,  thai 
the  premises  from  wnich  he  draws  that  con- 
clusion, have  impressed  my  mind  with  a  clear 
contraoicti'ih.  The  words  were,  *  lord  Pigot 
desired  to  be  sent  to  his  own  fort,  where  ne 
would  know  what  to  do.'  Can  any  bodj 
doubt  his  meaning,  by  the  words,  '  Place  ma 
in  my  own  fort ;'  I,  with  my  own  assistance, 
or  others  which  the  place  affords,  will  use  the 
means  to  restore  what  I  have  lost,  and  to  re- 

S&in  the  possession  of  the  country  which  I 
ad  lost  ?— I  pursue  it  no  farther ;  would  any 
man  alive  concur.with  Mr.  Monckton  in  tfaia 
inference  he  draws,  that  he  was  convinced 
the  soldiers  would  do  anything  lord  P%ot 
desired  ?  or  will  they  agree  mtb  me,  in 
thinking  lord  Pigot  pursu^  that  no  ftrther, 
or  the  soldiers  were  not  in  a  humour  to  do 
what  he  desiried,  to  place  him  in  his  own 
fort  ?— That  is  the  difierence,  in  which  I  shall 
disagree  with  Mr.  Monckton ;  not  questiofung 
the  fairness  of  the  conclusion  in  his  owa 
mind,  but  makine  use  of  it  as  an  instance, 
admitting  the  truth  and  accuracy  of  their  evi- 
dence in  general,  to  shew  how  little  atten- 
tion is  really  due  to  the  opinions  of  honesi 
men,  though  delivered  unaer  the  sanction  of 
oaths,  in  which  their  passions  are  suffered  to 
mix.  The  impressions  noon  his  mind,  are 
impressions  upon  the  subject  which  make 
that  appear  to  nim  to  be  clear  tmtb,  of  which 
to  me,  who  have  no  passions  upon  it,  the 
direct  contrary  seems  to  be  as  clear  as  it  it 
in  the  power  of  language  to  express,  or  ia 
the  power  of  the  human  heart  to  ktL 
So  modi  for  the  witnesses.  Inustoot 


J 181] 


deporing 


A.  D.  1779r 


[1189 


min  this  part  of  the  case,  without  reverting 
acaiD  to  the  opening ;  there  is  a  letter,  upon 
wnich  my  Learned  mend  said  he  was  happy, 
from  the  regard  he  hore  to  col.  Stuart,  to 
find  his  name  not  suhscrihed  to  it.  I  am 
sorry  to  find  this  exceptionable  paa^sage  in 
that  letter,  by  a  suggestion  respecting  that 
aame  col.  Stuart  not  being  liable  to  it.  It 
is  an  imputation  which  my  learned  fiiend 
tays  he  would  not  give,  if  ne  did  not  feel, 
that  instead  of  throwing  an  imputation  upon 
col.  Stuart  he  should  Be  able  to  exculpate 
him  from  it,  and  throw  it  upon  them  who 
adopted  it.  For,  says  he,  this  to  which  it  gives 
me  pleasure  to  find  col.  Stuart's  name  is  not 
fubscribed,  b  an  expression,  which  directs 
and  commands  assassination  in  terms  than 
which  an  assassination  was  never  commanded 
in  plainer.  Did  it  so  strike  you,  when  you 
heard  it  ?  the  expression  was  this : — 

If  there  should  be  any  attempt  to  rescue 
lord  Pigot, — I  don't  mean  to  eive  the  words, 
but  the  substance  of  them,— lord  Pilot's  life 
must  answer  for  it,  and  you  will  signity  this  to 
him.  As  your  last  resource,  lord  Pigot's  life 
must  answer  for  it,  and  you  will  signify  so  to 
bim. — In  the  first  place,  did  you  ever  yet  hear 
«f  a  man  who  meant  to  command  or  commit 
an  assassination,  first  to  go  to  the  man  he 
meant  to  assassinate  and  tell  him  so ; — ^Sir,  I 
liave  an  order,  under  which,  some  time  or 
€>ther,  I  shall  assassinate  you ;  I  am  not  only 
ordered  to  take  your  life,  but  I  am  previously 
ordered  to  tell  you  so  ?  if  a  man  came  to  me 
^th  an  order  m  those  terms,  I  should  tell 
bim  thus,  there  is  somebody  means  to  frighten 
me,  or  this  is  out  of  bravado ;  though  per- 
haps this  b  not  in  the  nature  of  an  incendiary 
fetter,  which  if  I  could  get  hold  of  would 
bang  you.  But  this  letter  is,  and  my  orders 
are,  to  assassinate  you  and  tell  you  so.  Am  I 
to  tell  him  I.wiD  not  be  assassinated?  I 
should  say,  if  you  mean  to  ^e  my  money, 
or  my  watch,  there  they  are,  take  them,  and 
flo  about  your  business.  It  is  said  by  my 
learned  friend,  it  meant  assassination  in  the 
plainest  of  all  possible  terms ;  they  were  so 
plain,  that  two  nints  from  Shakespear,  which 
were  more  obscure  than  this,  that  were  under- 
stood to  mean  assassination,  were  produced. 
It  is'  no  assassination  here,  for  tiie  context 
£iils ;  those  hints  are,  '  Buckingham,  I  want 
to  be  king  J  I  cannot  be  kine ;  I  cannot  be  king 
unless  my  nephews  be  suSbcated, — Ergo,  go 
and  suffocate  my  nephews.'  He  does  not  say 
this,  eo  and  suffocate  them:  in  that  my 
l^mea  friend  says  true,  but  he  says  *  I  want 
to  be  king.'  Now  had  Shakespeare,  who  was 
possessed  of  a  competent  Knowledge  of 
ituman  nature,  put  into  the  mouth  of  any 
person  assassination  in  teims  like  this,  I 
should  submit  that  Shakespeare  was  not  Irarn 
oil  the  banks  of  the  Avon ;  out  perhaps  a  river 
we  have  some  connections  with,  and  expect 
soon  to  have  some  news  from,  on  the  banks 
of  which  I  should  expect  his  Shakespeare  was 
lioro :— but  tU9  Shakes^ eara  ia  not  my  Shake- 


speare.— ^If  I  wete  fold  it  was,  I  should  b« 
driven  to  a  conjecture,  and  accounting  for  it 
by  some  such  reason.  If  this  is  not  enough^ 
there  is  a  postscript,  it  is  s£ud,  decides  upoii 
the  subject;  the  postscript  mentions  an  appli<» 
cation  for  some  of  his  horse ;  this  puts  ao^ 
end  to  equivocation  upon  the  most  decisive 
order  of  assassination ;  and  the  postscript  about 
the  nabob's  horse  means  no  more  than  this« 
the  nabob's  horse  were  to  be.  tiie  nabob's  as- 
sassins.— Did  you  ever  hear  of  assassination 
upon  horseback?  that  is  an  odd  sort  of 
character :  to  me  it  would  occur  as  soon  to 
think  of  a  troop  of  horse  of  churchwardens, 
as  a  troop  of  assassins  on  horseback.  My 
learned  fnend  does  not  know  who  the  horse 
were,  nor  what  their  numbers  were :  they 
were  stated  to  be  employed  for  the  purpose  of 
conveying  backwards  and  forwards  auickljr 
what  passed ;  my  learned  friend  thinxs  that 
a  stranee  idea;  for  a  troop  of  horse  to  ba 
placed  uiere  for  that  purpose,  was  a  pretence 
too  shallow  and  too  flimsy  to  pass  with  you  ; 
the  whole,  therefore,  must  be  lor  tiiis  purpose, 
they  were  to  perform  the  part  of  assassins  on 
horseback. — 1  will  inform  you  what  they 
were  ;  they  were  13  in  number,  stationed  bj. 
the  nabob  for  the  purpose  of  attending,  and 
avowedly  so,  to  give  quick  intelligence  tiirough 
the  means  of  such  superior  fleetness,  with 
which  their  horses  would  enable  them  to  per- 
form the  business;  they  were  stationed  to  per-k 
form  that  business.  It  is  said  to  be  strange 
and  ridiculous,  for  there  was  no  enemy  near,  ] 
nor  any  purpose  for  which  horse  might  ba ' 
employea.~So  you  are  to  suppose,  under 
those  circumstances,  there  was  no  hostility 
intended  by  the  neighbouring  powers.  It  la 
said  this  was  for  the  purpose  otassassinatioi^ 
and  that  unquestionably  the  intention  of  coL  ' 
Eidingtoun,  and  those  who  gave  the  orders  to 
him,  was  to  assassinate  lord  Pigot,  if  lord 
Pigot  suffered  himself  to  be  removed,  that 
he  might  be  carried  to  the  place  where  col. 
Eidingtoun  would  convey  him ; — the  place  is 
admitted  to  be  Ch'mgleput  and  not  Gmgee-* 
colonel  Eidingtoun  was  then  to  assassinata 
lord  Pigot :  if  ne  did,  it  must  be  in  the  way  to 
Chingleput ;  then  colonel  Eidingtoun,  for  no 
motive  or  reason  that  has  been  suggested  yet, 
having  no  interest  of  his  own,  no  quarrel  of 
his  own,  no  resentment  of  his  own,  having 
orders  to  carry  lord  Pigot  safely  to  Chingleput, 
is  supposed  to  intend  to  murder  lord  Pigot  by 
the  way.  These  suppositions  cannot  be 
easily  adopted,  if  they  were  put  to  any  rea- 
sonable man ;— I  had  almost  worked  myself 
up  to  an  inclination,  notwithstanding  I  knpw 
what  our  clients  entertadn  of  us  upon  certain 
subjects, — to  say  to  my  learned  friend^— I 
would  give  up  tne  cause,  if  he  would  ration- 
ally and  coolly  tell  me,  th^t  he  himself 
senously  believes  assassination  was  ordered  or 
intended  by  the  letter  or  the  postscript  re- 
specting the  nabob,  or  sending  col.  Eidingtoun 
to  remove  him  from  the  Mount  to  Chingleput. 
If  either  of  the  gentiemen  had  it  seriously  in 


1183] 


19  GEORGE  nL  Proceedings  against  George  Stratum         [1 184 


coDtemplatioiiy  or  wished  the  assasanation  of 
lord  Pigot,  or  to  destroy  lord  Pigot,  or  to  hurt 
bim  in  the  sense  into  wnich  this  letter  or  post- 
script is  said  to  be  capable  of  being  expiam- 
edy — I  give  up  the  cause  as  being  incapable 
of  being  defended.  For,  sure  I  am,  no  ra- 
tional mani  divesting  himself  of  passions 
arising  from  the  consideration  of  any  other 
character  or  cause,  can  or  ought  to  say  se- 
riously to  you,  under  any  of  the  circumstances, 
ihat  lord  PigoVs  death  was  intended  by  any 
of  the  defendants.  He  could  not  remain 
under  such  an'  idea  for  a  nuuient.  In  this  I 
hazard  nothing,  because  1  am  not  claiming, 
in  behalf  of  m^  clients,  any  thing  upon  the 
part  of  humanity,  nor  any^  thing  upon  the 
part  of  justice, — I  am  claiming  a  right  in  not 
naving  deserved  all  this  which  has  been  im- 

Suted  to  them,  as  having  an  attention  to  nothing 
ut  their  interest.  Can  any  man  who  hears 
xne,  hesitate  to  assent  to  the  proposition  I  am 
going  to  state;  that  such  conduct  as  they 
are  represented  to  have  held,  would  not  have 
been  more  repugnant  to  honour,  and  more  re- 
pugnant to  Aity,  than'  to  their  clear  and  un- 
doubted interests  ?— What  could  their  enemies 
desire  more  than  the  accident  of  lord  Pigot's 
'  death  ? — What  could  have  brought  more  ca^ 
lumny  upon  them,  than  the  accident  of  lord 
Pigot's  death,  unconnected  in  point  of  time 
and  circumstances,  with  any  thing  for  which 
tiiey  are  answerable  ?  If  lord  Pigot  had  died 
mt  this  time,  and  under  those  circumstances, 
could  they  have  held  up  their  heads  in  that 
or  this  country?  could  they  have  maintained 
their  reputations  or  fortunes  here,  or  there  ? 
Or  would  they  have  been  suffered  to  exist? 
'«nd  would  they  not  have  merited  and  re- 
teived  the  most  exemplary  punishment  the 
laws  could  inflict ;  or,  if  the  gentlemen  like 
the  language  better,  what  mey  deserved  ? 
So  destructive  it  would  be  to  ev6ry  interest 
they  must  be  supposed  to  be  attentive  to.  and 
everyplsln  of  their  future  lives.  Can  it  be 
conceived,  that  these  men,  of  whom  we  know 
nothing  but  what  the  cause  affords,  could 
have  no  attention  to  their  own  happiness; 
could  have  no  wish  to  acquire  and  retain 
that  which  most  men  feel  to  be  the  most  va- 
luable of  all  acquisitions,  the  good  opinion  of 
their  neighboiirs;  and  their  own  good  opi- 
nion, which  was  still  more  valuable  ?  Are  they 
to  have  no  credit  given  them  of  that  sort  ? 
Would  not  a  regard  to  their  own  interest  be  a 
sufficient  secunty  against  so  foolish  and 
groundless  an  aspersion  ?  I  am  treating  this 
perhaps  more  seriously  thitn  it  deserves,  or 
has  any  title  to.  In  the  progress  of  this 
cause,  there  are  many  small  circumstances, 
and  I  don't  know  whether  some  of  them 
might  not  escape  my  notice  ;  they  certainly 
have.  There  was  one  passage  cited,  tendinjg 
to  confirm  this  imputation,  in  which  it  is 
said,  had  we  had  such  purpose  to  execute, 
could  we  have  desired  a  more  favourable  op- 
portunity, than  the  resistance  to  this  attempt, 
to  removg  hiox  to  Chingleputt  Tha^  my 


learned  friend  says,  b  an'idea  that  could  not 
occur  to  any  body,  but  one  who  obold  naedi- 
tate  such  an  act ;  such  an  idea  could  never 
have  occurred  to  me ;  for  the  amtment  that  is 
used  in  that  defence,  is  natunu  and  conclu- 
sive upon  the  subject  Could  there  have  been, 
in  the  nature  of  things,  a  fitter  opportunity,  if 
they  meant  to  execute  such  a  purpose  ?  There 
certainly  could  not  be  ;  if  it  was  proper  at  al^ 
it  could  not  have  been  executed  but  at  the 
hazard  of  all  the  consequences  I  have  been 
stating ;  but  the  ground  to  be  taken  for  the 
purpose  of  resisting  those  imputations  which 
were  thrown  upon  them,  is  answered  by  it; 
for  ihey  say  this  shews  we  did  not  intend  it 
At  best  it  would  have  been  a  kind  of  chance 
medley,  a  kind  of  manslaughter  at  worst,  but 
not  a  murder;  that  is  a  sufficient  circum- 
stance to  preclude  the  imputation  of  an  intei^ 
tion  to  murder. 

No  circumstance  would  have  justified  or 
extenuated  the  crime;  no  opportimity  Could 
have  been  found  which  could  have  justified 
them ;  but  still,  most  undoubtedly,  as  between 
that  moment  and  any  other,  it  was  as  this 
argument  supposes  the  fittest;  and  that  is  all 
that  this  argument  does  suppose.  Then  my 
learned  fnend  went,  on  very  pathetically,  by 
saying  lord  Pigot  died  in  May ;  and  a  circum- 
stance of  great  conrniiseration  that  misfix-- 
tune  produced;  which  was  the  necessity  the 
family  were  r^uced  to,  to  beg  his  dead  body 
of  Mr.  Stratton.  I  really  was  ready  to  believe 
that  idea  came  from  Mr.  Dempsey,  the  post 
boy;  I  am  sure  it  could  come  finom  nobody 
else,  who  could  be  called  as  a  witness  to  prove 
it.  It  was  described,  by  my  learned  friend, 
to  be  something  like  that  of  applvine  to 
another  Achilles,  to  beg  the  d^  Body 
of  another  Hector.  After  his  death  there 
was  no  such  occasion.  Mr.  Stratton  had  no 
custody  of  lord  Pigofs  body  when  alive;  and 
be  had  no  custo<w  of  U  when  dead  ;  and  as 
humanity  required,  it  has  been  admitted  die 
species  of  guard  was  of  the  soft  as  could  never 
subject  the  body  living  or  dead  to  this  treat* 
ment ;  but  the  euards  were  withdrawn  before 
he  died ;  and  there  was  no  such  embassy  to 
beg  of  Mr.  Stratton  the  dead  body.  It  would 
be  an  imputation  indeed  upon  theni,  Iiad 
there  been  a  pretence  for  that  sort  of  sugges- 
tion.— I  don't  know  from  whenc6  my  learned 
friend  got  it ;  unless  it  was  firom  reading  pre- 
viously that  book  which  gives  us  pleasure  to 
read, — ^where  there  is  an  account  of  the  dead 
bodjr  of  Hector  being  begged  by  a  Priam  of 
Achilles,  who  had  dragged  it  round  the 
walls  of  Troy  before  it  was  given  up';  the  ap- 
plication of  such  an  idea,  to  lord  PigoVs  case, 
you  must  observe,  has  no  foundation  in  tbs 
nature  and  truth  of  the  transaction.    ^ 

Having  got  through  with  the  particularity 
due  to  the  quarter  from  whence  the  observa- 
tions came,  which  I  have'  been  endeavour- 
ing to  explain  and  give  my  sentiments  upon, 
— we  revert  of  course  to  that  which  I  take 
to  be  thte  'only  ipiestioa  before  the  court; 


il8!Q 


«nd  oAertfJir  iqiodng  Z^d  JPtgot' 


A.  D.  1779. 


tim 


before  I  stele  wlut  that  question  is^  I  will 
Mate  to  yoUy  upon  the  authority  of  the  noble 
lord  who  presides  uj[)on   the   trial  of  this 
cause,  and  who  presided  upon  the  trial  of 
another  cause  in  this  place  within  this  last 
vreekf  in  which  he  stated  with  precision  and 
that  justice  which  is  felt  by  every^  body/ ac- 
quiesced in  and  approved  by  every  body,  his 
ideas  how  questions  like  this  should  be  tried ; 
— que8ti<»is  respecting  the  conduct  of  men  in 
office,  in  distant  situations.    In  the  trial  of 
those  questions,  says  he,  the  great  object  of 
attention,  vis  the  heart  of  the  party  into  whose 
conduct  you  are  to  enquire.    No  man  ought 
to  be  condemned  lor  small  errors  in  articles 
of  form,  who  means  to  be  right:   no  man 
ought  to  be  defended  upon  small  circum- 
stances of  form,  unless  he  means  to  do  wrong : 
— the  heart,  therefore,  is  that  to  which  the 
attention  of  juries,  in  subjects  like  this,  ought 
to  be  directed ;— -To  which  he  might  have 
added,  the  attention  of  courts,  when  it  comes 
under  their  consideration; — for  that  is  the 
point,  exclusivelv,  to  which  their  attention 
ought  to  be,  ana  always  is  directed  and  con- 
fined. If  that  position  be  true  in  any  instances 
of  human  life,  it  must  be  true  in  cases,  like 
this,  of  imputations  for  which  it  is  thought 
the  necessity  of  the  case  calls,  and  which 
were  attempted  to  be  impressed  upon  me  in 
various  stages  of  the  business ;   my  answers 
to  which  have  &iled  in  effect,  if  you  are  not 
convinced  the  whole  of  this  difference  which 
ended  so  unfortunately,  proceeded  from   a 
cause  which  had  long  before  subsided. 

If  you  are  not  convinced  that  the  dispute 
respecting  the  rajahship  being  restored,  was 
at  an  end  before  the  beginning  of  May ;   if 
you  are  not  convinced  that  Mr.  Benfield's 
claims  were  finally  dismissed  upon  the  17th 
of  June,  mixed  with  the  consideration  of  the 
subsequent  difference,   upon  the  subject  of 
sending  Mr.  Russel  or  Mr.  Stuart  to  Tanjore 
in  August;    the  whole  of  that  imputation 
thrown  upon  .the  defendants,  is  cut  up  by  the 
roots  :    there  they  bottom ; '  and  there  they 
spring,  from  the  suppositions  of  advantages  to 
arise  from  the  naboo  who  was  to  support  his 
claim,  and  the.  suppositions  of  interest  from 
the  nabob  to  be  derived  from  his  claims ; — . 
suspicions,  in  their  nature  unwarrantable,  of 
the  supposed  motives  which  induced  the  de- 
fendants to  act.    If  these  suspicions  have  not 
so  bottomed  themselves,  as  to  make  an  im- 
pression upon  your  ininds;    and  you,  as  a 
jury  upon  your  oaths,  do  not  think  yourselves 
warranted,  to  pronounce  upon  the  conduct 
and  character  of  men,  of  whomyou  know  no- 
thing, but  from  the  histoVy  of  to  day,  who 
ought  not  to  be  condemned  upon  evidence  so 
groundless,  so  inconclusive,  so  insufficient,  so 
(X>ntradictory,  and  self-destructive : — If  they 
are    not  grounds    that  can  warrant  you  in 
sidopting  those  imputations,  the  question  is 
at  an  end  :   so  far  as  the  heart  has  any  thing 
to  do  with  it,  it  is  reduced  to  this ;— is  there 
^ny  thing  so  intentiooally  wrong  in  the  pre- 
VOL.  XXI. 


dilectloA  the  defendants  are  supposed  to  en« 
ttirtatn  for  colonel  Stuart,  or  the  noble  lord  to 
entertain  for  Mr.  Russel,  that  should  maka 
the  heart  culpable  in  the  one  instance,  and 
leave  the  heart  perfectly  innocent   in   th^ 
otheri  If  stren^  and  violence  of  attachment 
to  any  person  be  criminal,  there  never  could 
be  greater  than  lord  Pigot  had  upon  that  oc- 
casion :  I  believe  it  ought  to  be  said,  in  jus- 
tice to  his  memory,  there  never  lived  a  maa 
with  more  warm  attachments  of  heart,  thaii 
he  possessed,  and  acted  more  upon  than  he* 
He  acted  violently,  and  strongly  in  any  casa 
where  he  thousht  himself  capable  of  being 
justified  or  apologized  for,  upon  anv  occasioa 
of  that  sort.    To  that  it  is  reduced; — if  you 
ate  to  convict  these  eentlemen  upon  suspi- 
cion which  is  short  of  pcQof,  from  a  belief 
that  any  thinjg;  got  from  Beniiehi  was  the 
motive  which  induced  these  gentlemen  to  act 
upon  the  subject;  the  point  I  am  now  con« 
fining  my  attention  and  yours  to,  remains  en- 
tirely at  rest :    upon  some  ground  of  attach- 
ment to  individuals  whose  names  occur  and 
stand  in  contradiction  to  one  another,  their 
pretensions  do  not  seem  incompatible, — I  se« 
no  reason  why  Mr.  Russel  should  not  go  tQ 
Tanjore ;  but  I  am  unable  to  find  a  reasoia 
why  he  should  go  to  Tanjore ;    I  see  no  rea-i 
son  why  they  should  Sjpnd  colonel  Stuart  there, 
unless  fot  some  purposes,  which  I  do  not  un-' 
derstand,  and  which  might  make  it  more  foe 
the  interest  of  the  Company;    or  why  ha 
should  not  remain  at  Velorc, — It  is  no  crima 
ta  confer  upon  the  parties  a  p(»8t  of  difficulty 
and  honour ;  instead  of  being  under  the  shape 
of  an  imputation  upon  them,  it  is  the  best 
tribute  of  applause  oue  to  the  human  heart, 
I  can  conceive.    Be  that  as  it  may,  my  clients 
say  they  acted  from  public  reasons;  they  did 
not  act  from  private  attachments  any  mor^ 
than  from  base  motives ;  they  meant  to  use 
the  best  lights  God  gave  them  to  understand 
their  duty  to  the  Company ;  and  they  do  not 
appear  to  me  to  be  incompetent  to  that  duty, 
upon  all  these  points,  their  conduct  appears 
defensible;  this  I  state  as  a  clear  opinion,  in 
which  I  have  np  doubt  you  will  agree  witU 
me. — If  the  point  is  to  be  determined  upon  a 
question  of  law,' in  which  this  discussion  upon 
all  thi|t  has  been  heard,  read,  and  talked  of 
to  day,  is  supposed  to  be  introduced  in  tha^ 
question  of  law,  I  am  ready  to  put  that  ques- 
tion in  any  mode  to  receive  any  discussion 
or  decision  that  can  be  given  on  it-elsewhera 
or  here  ;  or  to  refer  the  consideration  of  this 
question,  before  this,  or  any  court,  or  every 
court  in  the  hallj  by  special  verdict,,  or  any 
way  the  gentlemen  tell  me  they  like  best.^« 
If  there  is  the  least  reason  for  a  doubt  upon 
this  question,  I  am  perfectly  ready  to  submit 
to  the  consideration  of  the  court,  in  any  moda 
that  can  be  suggested. — ^This  is  the  nature  of 
the  question ;  it  it  involves  any  question  of 
law  in  it,  if  it  is  not  competent  to  you  to  de-. 
cide  it,  and  it  is  to  be  ultimately  left  to  the 
opinion  of  a  court,  I  will  refer  il  to  his  lord- 
4G 


1187] 


UflEOKGE  m.         ^oodmS$^  Mguma  G§MgB  mNMrn        fl^ 


jpty'dienls  should  oe  ceoTiisted,  with  th«.f»- 
servatioiK^f  a  sjpeciai  verdict;  I  beg  lesve  t» 
•a^  iK>w^— for  the  sake  of  ^^reventiBg  waf 
iDietaken  opiittoo,  ^i^ch  may  be  sent  about 
ttie  town,  by  the  opinions  of  peepie,  who  do 
l^t  understand  what  passes  in  this  phtoe,  aad 
those  tQ  whom  what  passes  in  this  court  can* 
Bet  be  e^iuned ;— 4kat  the  distinction  will 

ferolOfe  of  a  distinction,  thm  a  ^differenoe 
tween  a  conviction  and  an  acquittal,  ^t 
fhe  same  time,  centlemen,  you  wul  not  com- 
prehend me  to  be  assenting  to  a  conviction. 
«— I  trust  the  circumstances  of  this  case  not 
^Iv  afford  an  apology,  and  eatcuse,  palliation, 
and  alleviation;  but  will  afford  a  complete 
defenge,  and  justification :  but  if  it  defiends 
upon  a  question  of  law,  whether  they  wiU  or 
liot,-*-oone  of  which  have  been  talked  of, 
|K>ne  of  which  have  been  amied,  to  the  argu^ 
ment  of  which  I  fed  myselfat  presort  some- 
thing incompetent,-^*-* 

3>ord  Mantfield,  What  is  ^e  ^uesAioa,  tipo^ 
theoeostitBtton? 

Mr.  Dunning.  I  am  content  to  get  the 
fOBse  of  the  court,  upon  ail  the  <|ue8tions. 

Ceurt.  It  is  TOUT  consent  that  is  material 
p  it  i*^!  sfaouw  be  oxtreraely  glad  of  it.  I 
shall  tell  the  jury  what  I  think  of  the  consd^* 
^tion  i^^  should  be  glad  to  have  your  con- 
sent %ipon  thai  point ; — ^Uiey  shdl  take  tho 
amnion  of  the  court,  and  you  consent  to  a 
new  trial,  because,  you  see,  you  do  not  want 
aconsent,  for  if  my  opinion  should  be  wnmg 
lipon  any  point  of  law,  to  your  prc^diee,  you 
Inve  a  right  to  move  for  a  new  trial; — the 
orown  cannot  ;'«-no  other  way  but  vour  con^- 
9ont  oaa  do  it;  you  cannot  have  a  bill  of  «»• 
oeptions  here;  and  it  would  not  take  in  the 
whole  cause  upon  a  special  verdict ; — the  con- 
sequence of  it  would  only  be  this^—thfft  I 
should,  with  tnuch  more  ease  of  mind,  say 
what  I  shouki  have  thought  myself  obliged 
to  say  without  it,  but  with  much  greatar  ease 
to  my  mind,  knowing  it  can  hurt  neitiier 
aKie* 

Mr.  Z^aaniii^.  I  understand  it  to  be  far  the 
interest  of  Uie  Company,  lor  whose  interciBt 
alone,  it  is  stated  to  me,  it  would  be  proper 
lo  have  the  sense  of  the  oeurt  upon  all  the 
questions  of  the  constitution^  with  a  view  to 
prevent  iiilure  mischiefs 

Court,  The  questions  relating  to  the  eon* 
Viitntion,  lie  in  a  verv  narrow  compass ;  the 
argument  may  be  wide. 
.  Att  Gen,  It  is  clear  that  any  poesible  state 
ef  the  constitution  cannot  concern  or  aflRect 
Iht  innocency  or  auih  of  the  defendants. 

CiMMt.  It  may  be  so  :•  In  case  it  does,  the 
defendants  do  not  want  your  consent ;  it  is 
kx  your  favour. — ^If  the  constitution  is  as  lord 
Pisot  sam,  thare  is  no  question  at  all. 

Mr.  Dunning.  I  admit  upon  that  state  of 
^  case  there  can  he  no  qiiestion,^I  can 
make  no  question. 

(Here  fiAr.  Attorney  General  rose  to  reply.] 
HU*  Dmmittg.  Mj  lard;  Mr.  Altoney  Go- 


tieral\slBnda  tqp  lortfaa  pvMiflf  itplyiiggt 
I  MhoMht  glad  «o  know,  Wbether  ka re|ihsft 
hj  prerogative,  or  what  other  tight  f 

An.Cmn.  I  said  fiom  the  hegiBnii^  I 
meant  to  reply.  I  father  fancv  I  am  ^vnhin 
the  rule ;  I  navea  light  to  reply  if  there  was 
nothing  like  evidence  pToduced  ;*  hut  in  the 
course  of  te  trading  tnere  was  ovideHee  read 
upon  the  part  of  the  defendants. 

Mr.  Dttaani^.  That  is  no  other  elaini  hot 
from  prerogative,  and  this  seems  to  be  ne 
cause  of  oretogalive ;  thinr  read  a  gfOat  ded 
from  booits  containing  the  subject  maUer 
disclosed,  which  entitled  the  other  vat^  to 
read  any  thin^  in  the  same  book  wtikh  he 
thinks  benefinal  to  him ;  if  he  requires  the 
whole,  or  any  pait  of  lim  whole,  it  ftnist  be 
read ;  or  we  mig^  have  sat  here  above  a  ^ 
or  a  week. 

Urnrt.  The  Attorney  Generd  has  a  f%hl 
to  rejrfy ;   but  the  point  he  reserved  " 


upon,  was  the  justification ;  that  is  vrhat  I 
understood  he  reserved  hima^  upon. 

Ast.  Gen.  It  saved  a  good  deal  of  tine  in 
the  opening ;  but  at  anytime,  in  such  a  caBse 
as  this,  of  su^  importance^  T  don't  think  I 
should  do  my  duty  without  it,  and  even  if  it 
were  not  in  a  matter  of  very  ^ntX  consequence^ 
under  such  orders  aa  Ireceived  (or  the  arose* 
cation,  if  I  did  not  deliver  my  thou|^ts  to 
your  lordship  and  the  jury. 

Court.  You  certainly  have  a  rig^ 

Mr.  Dunning.  If  your  lordship  aDowv  hfan 
that,  I  must  begjeave  to  observe  that  we 
have  evidence  to  offer ;  and  I  thought  I  nugjht 
have  avoided  that  without  any  inconvenience 
to  my  clients,  and  that  it  would  prevent  a 
reply  in  declining  to  call  the  evidence  ;  bat  I 
must  bog  to  have  those  letters  read,  which  I 
have  reftri^  to,  as  being  explanatory  of  the 
sense  of  the  people  at  Bengal ;  in  tliese  cir- 
comstaiiGes  it  is  competent  to  me  to  read  thooe. 

I  shall  at  all  events  r^ad  those  paf«ia,  in 
evidence,  which  shew  the  andent  conrtitmion 
of  the  Company.  I  shall  then  go  into  the 
cqnsidemtion,  and  enquire  what  constitution 
more  modem  times  have  produced.  I  ahafl 
then  call  a  livmg  witness  or  two,  to  explain 
some  vacancy  which  mav  be  lef^  in  the  evi- 
dence. M^  whifh  I  feel  I  must  do,  which  I 
was  in  hopes  I  might  have  saved  the  tioBe  of 
the  Coitft,  without  any  inconvenienoe  to  my 
elicits. 

The  thing  I  call  for  first,  b  the  answer  cf 
the  jgovemor  and  council  of  Beng^  rqve- 
sentmg  their  o]Hnion  of  the  trsnaactioD. 

Ait.  Gen.  My  k>rd;  I  obiect  to  Aal 
evidence ;  becanse  I  concdve  the  gentlemn 
at  Bengal,  have  tx>  more  authority  in  thb 
business,  to  give  thdr  opinion,  than  any  oAcr 
set  of  Bsen,  m  any  other  part  of  the  kia^ 
dominions ;   or  at  least  ao  better  autfaortj 

*  Widi  reaped  to  tbe  right  ef  raply  wbm  ao 
evidenoA  hu  htem  prodooed  in  defeaoe  ;  sm  laid 
Manifietd^s  Mttuaing  ap.  In  llie  Oua  of 
▼el*  KH  f»  7-68»  aad  aola^  and 


f.  - 


fi8B>r 


mi  9§hgi^$tJkr  dgpo^g  Lfff4  Pigsi. 


A.  t>.  irf9. 


[iigtf 


Tbft  stmmeiite  are  4iistinct)  aM  .MejMtid- 
ant  o#  ewb  other;   i  take  it  tt>  b«  cle«i», 

alMue  not  aaora  tkan  o4h«r  pivaoB»  any 
ority  to  ^B  att  ofMRion;  your  ioffdihip'' 
will  not  hear  thoie  oftmiona. 

Cmtt,  CevttiinlyiDt^^^  iiiallAol  #ece2te 
it  upon  opinion.  What  are  th*  applications 
to  which  thia  is  ananswiir? 

Mr.  Jhmmmg,  Thcrv  is  thia  dMkrence  be- 
tween an  application  to  Bombay  and  BesgaF; 
tatlieatmineiiial  Bengal,  both  nartiea  ap- 
plied ;  we  have  read  letters  from  lord  Pigot, 
as  well:  as  lotteva  el  «i]is>  slatiag  »  diflbrence 
of  opinion ;  and  the  answers  of  the  people  at 
BoouMKy,  I  wish  to  yead^ 

Au.Oen.  AU  that  was  reid)idlllwt  passed, 
flliews  thst  tfaare  is  a^  cotsmiaiication  bet¥Feen 
ona  prasidenoy  and  the  o^ev,  of  the  transac- 
tieas  of  each  praaidirney ;  tiia  rxMprespendence 
1*  scat  fraai  one  is  the  other,  upon  aeceimt 
of  the  evtnti  that  happen;  they  aw  sent  in 
i^peioaunsy  a  nnmlMr  off  parcels  together^  wt& 
aceounils  pitor  to  that  in  date. 

Mr.  Suimmg,  I  belies  Mr.  Attorney  Ge- 
neral is  mistaken  in  what  he  has  last  stated. 
X  believe  it  never  waa  the  nractiee,  antecedent 
to  the  Mt  of  paiiianient  which  gare  rise  to  it, 
§0€  them  all  to  send  to  B^igal ;  but  since  that 
Art,  all  the  other  settlements  Iwve  sent  trans- 
nissiolit  of  the  sort  to  B|ensal ;  but  from  this 
place  to  Bombay,  or  to  Micoolen,  €t  any 
other  settlements,  no  such  transmissions  were 
ewer  heard  of.  It  is  wholly  and  solely  to 
Bmgal,  I  believe ;  Mr.  Mitchell  wiU  tell  you 
in  a  moment,  if  he  is  here. 

42.  to  Mr.  MUchell.  Is  them  a  transmission 
of  the  proceedings  from  Bengid  to  Bombay, 
or  torn  Madras  to  Bombay } — A,  No^  There 
19  from  Madras  to  Benga} ;  and  from  Bombay 
to  Bengal. 

And  every  other  settlement  to  Bengal } — 
Yes,  and  always  from  Bombay  to  Bengal; 


or  war. 


It  does  not  exist  in  ai&y  other  settlement, 
but  to  Bengal? — To  no  other  place,  in  ge- 
neral. 

Mr.  DwMiing,  I  will  tell  your  lordship  the 
nalure  of  the  contradistinction  given. — It 
comprises  the  whole  of  the  case. 

Court.  Comprise  ?  how  should  it  comprise 
&  case,  that  from  the  days  of  Adam,  never 
cttisted  in  any  other  instance } 

Mr.  Duikning.  If  it  does  not;  it  is  an 
arUthority  that  both  appeal  to. 

Cowrt.  If  you  have  done,  I  will  tell  you 

xi^  opinion. — I  think  evidence  is  always  to  be 

eonsidered  from  the  nature  of  the  question, 

and  the  subject  to  which  it  is  to  be  applied. 

MFo  are  in  a  case  that  never  could  exist  in 

JSnghmd,  but  has  existed  in  the  East  Indies ; 

maacTa  wA  necessity  for  a  v«ry  extraordinary 

jLSSumptioQ  of  government,  is  the  defence  to 

imsUly  the  aet.    N^oWlhe  supreme  council  of 

j3engal  have  the  superintendance  of  Madias, 

flEimd  all  tfa« other  Sasif  India  settlements;  and 

Ib^aid^  that,  ihey  ba^  the  ausHnlBlukboee 


wm^  a  degree  as  to  t>ut  a  negative  td  every 
thitte  lelative  to  jteace  or  war ;  so  th^t  they 
shall  not  declare  war,  or  make  peace,  or  makd  , 
treaties,  or  negociations  of  peace,  but  with  the. 
consent  and  approbation  of  Beng^ ;  but  id 
this  superior  station,  and  the  only  sup^riior 
station  they^have  in  India,  both  parties  applied 
to  them. 

M%,  O&n.  W6  dispute  that  fact. 

Mr.  Xenyon.  Most  undoubtedly  they  did. 

Mt.  Rous.  The  accounts  were  sent  to  both 
settlements,  I  believe ;  but  I  speak  from  recol- 
leetion.* 

Court,  Did  not  lord  Pigot  apply  to  the 
g^ovemor  and  council  of  Bengal  ? 

Mr.  Dunning.  Yes,  my  lord;  and  the. 
answer  begins ; — We  received  your  dispatches, . 
and  a  letter  from  lord  Pigot. 

Cifurt.  Then,  I  see,  both  applied  to  Bengal. 

SoL  Gen.  It  is  no  reference,  my  lord,  to  the. 
peo|)le  of  Bengal ;  it  is  only  like  the  opinion  of. 
a  third  person  who  has  nothing  to  do  with  it. 

Court.  Both  of  them  have  applied  to  Bengal* 
— Bengal  was  the  superintendent  power,  ana 
their  superiors. — It  cannot  be  read,  but  as  the 
opinion  of  a  third  person;  but,  I  think,  it 
ought  to  be  read,  as  there  was  an  application 
by  both  to  the  superintendent  power  of 
Bengal. 

Att.  Oen.  I  don^t  Oppose  it,  if  they  provo 
any  thing  like  an  application  by  both  parties,' 
by  way  of  reference  to  the  superintendent 
power  of  Benfi;a] ;  but  if  it  is  in  nothing  more' 
than  a  private  letter  from  lord  Pigot,and  a  public 
letter  from  the  others,  then  it  is  a  transmbsion 
to  Bengal  simply  of  an  account  of  what  they 
are  doing ;  it  is  not  an  application  by  way  of 
reference ;  it  is  in  a  communication  only  of 

Sublic  letters ;  and  upon  these  extraordinaiy 
isturbances  there  was  a  communication  of 
the  same  kind  carried  to  Bombay. 
*  Court.  And  I  snppose  there  was  applica^ 
tion  to  the  majority  or  the  council  in  the  same 
manner,  acquaintmg  them  with  what  was 
done } 

Att.  Oen.   Yes. ' 

Court.   Read  it. 

Mr.  Dunning.  Mr.  Mitchell  tells  yoti,  there 
is  no  such  communication  between  ^ny  othei* 
two  settlements :  but  only  to  Bengal  by  every 
one  of  them.  If  there  is  any  doubt  upon  it, 
the  answer  is  expressed  by  the  ptople  ^ 
Bengal,  that  they  considered  themselves  as 
called  upon  to  interj^ose,  and  did  interpose 
with  a  view  to  put  an  end  to  tlie  difference. 

Court.  Supposing  they  had  come  to  blood ; 
where  was  assistance  to  be  had  ?  From  no 
otlier  authority  than  the  supreme  council  of 
Bengal,  there  was  no  other  Indian  authority 
that  could  have  interposed ;  therefore  read  it. 

Mr.  Kenyon.  The  tirst  article  in  the  letter 
puts  it  beyond  ull  doubt  they  did  apply  to 
them  as  people  who  could  controul. 

Court,  I  take  it  so,  as  an  application  by* 
them  both  to  the  superintendent  power  of 
Bengal,  as  the  only  place  from  whence  they 
eoul3  haye  coBtroui  or  assistaaoe. 


1191] 


19  GEORGE  m.         Pfwseeiingi 


[11!» 


AU.  Gen.  My  lord ;  I  have  read  the  k|ter ; 
it  is  DO  application  to  them  as  having  any 
supenntendine  power;  none  as  havinx  any 
eontroul ;  and  in  the  sequel  of  the  huainetsy 
when,  after  the  government  was  overturned 
and  in  the  possession  of  Stratton,  they  applied 
to  Bengal  for  directions^  concerning  the 
removal  of  the  person  of  lord  Pigot,  the 
answer  of  the  governor  and  council  of  Benggl 
isy — **  You  must  do  as  you  think  good;  it  is  not 
a  case  upon  which  we  can  give  you  any  direc- 
tions,   it  is  not  within  our  authority." 

Court,  This  is  the  import  of  the  evidence 
when  read? 

Mr.  Dunning.  It  will  be  found  different 
from  that,  if  I  can  read ;  it  is  this.  *  We  have 
'  taken  these  proceedings  into  our  most  serious 
'  consideration,  and  have  unanimously  agreed 
'  in  resolutions  on  such  parts  of  them,  as  by 
<  their  importance  demanded  our  first  and 

*  immediate  attention,  and  by  their  nature  and 
^  tendency  called  for  the  interposition  of  the 
'  controllmg  power  vested  in  us  by  parliament 

*  over  the  presidency  of  Madras,  &c. 
Letters  from  Warren  Hastings,  esq.  eovemor 

of  Bengal,  and  council,  to  the  right  hon. 
George  lord  Pigot,  president,  and  councikat 
Fort  St.  George.  Dated  Fort  William,  7th  of 
Aiupt  1776.    Read.—. 

Ccurt,  You  see  the  whole  of  it  is  authori- 
tative. 

Att,  Gen.  It  is  in  that  stile,  but  that  arises 
upon  account  of  an  application  from  the  nabob 
representing  some  acts  done  which  he  con- 
ceived to  be  acts  of  hostihty.  It  arises  upon 
a  correspondence  of  that  sort,  and  if  your  lord- 
ship wiu  indulge  us  to  go  into  it,  I  am  put 
in  possession  of  a  paper,  to  prove  that  that 
assertion  against  lord  Pigot,  as  governor  of 
Madras  upon  that,  is  totally  ungrounded  in 
fact,  with  respect  to  sending  for  th^  nabob's 
people  from  Arielore.  It  is  proved  to  a 
demonstration,  those  are  confessed  and  ad- 
mitted to  be  part  of  the  Tanjore  country,  and 
that  is  in  the  direct  spirit  and  letter  of  Uie 
Company's  orders ;  and  the  people  at  Beogal 
did  not  know  it. 

Court,  And  therefore  it  is  not  conclusive 
evidence. 

Mr.  Dunning,  1  am  jlad  the  letter  was 
read;  having  been  read  it  speaks  for  itself, 
being  not  founded  upon  any  information  of 
the  nabob,  but  founded  upon  a  letter  of  the 
13th,which  had  been  sent  to  them,  which  they 
then  took  into  consideration  :  and  this  letter 
was  the  result  of  that  consiaeration. 

Then  I  will  read  another  letter,  which  is 
more  immediately  applicable  to  the  subject  of 
our  present  dispute,  of  the  same  date  with 
that  addressed  to  lord  Pigot,  which  is  ad- 
dressed to  sir  JBdward  Hughes ;  there  are  two 
letters  of  the  same  date,  acknowledging  the 
receipt  of  this,  and  their  resolutions  are  an- 
nexed to  this  letter. 

Court,  Oh!  don't  read  the  resolutions; 
tliey  go  no  ferther  in  this  dispute. 

Mr.  Dunning.  I  cau't  say  thqr  strike  mc  as 
^ery  material,  now. 


Then  read  thb  tarn  fhs  _ 
couDcil  of  Bei^^ly  to  Vmd  PJgcty  achauwlgig 
ing  the  lecdpt  of  a  letter  from  lua  bidsbip  ob 
theS9tb,and  a  letter  finim  Mr.  SiraaigB  anA 
the  luycMrity  of  the  council  of  tbe  SSd. 

That  letter  read,  Pfge  39,  voL  9. 

<*  We  have  been  iMaoared  with  your  letter 
from  the  Mount,**  &c. 

Copy  of  a  letter  from  the  eovemor  and 
council  of  Bengal  tosir  £dw.  Hnghea,  p.  41, 
▼d.  «.  • 

"« We  have  observed  with  the  deepest 
oern  that  the  difeences,''  &c. 

Court.    Both  these  lelten  are  in  a 
s^le. 

Mr.  Daaiiti^.  Yes;  tb^  are  ezercisiD^ 
as  they  supposed,  the  jurisdiction  they  IukL 

Jit.  Gem.  They  are  exenass^  that  sort 
of  iurisdiction  vre  would,  if  any  two  persons 
had  quairelled  and  had  each  wrote  to  Mr. 
Dumung,  or  myself,  or  any  body  ebe  in 
court  They  have  g^ven  wint  is  ^ery  deci- 
sive, in  point  <»f  opinion,  and  'not  much  more 
than  that.  Your  lordship  will  observe  that 
this  letter  refers  itself  to  a  fonner  letter,  in 
which  they  suppose  certain  chai]ges  to  be 
conveyed  against  the  president;  now  I  will 
go  into  it,  and  prove  firom  the  papers  evefy  one 
of  those  charges  are  felsii.'.es»  soopted  by  the 
council  at  Bei^al. 

Mr.  Let.  Read  lord  Pigof  s  letter,  that 
th^  may  have  that  as  well  as  the  opinion. 

Court.  I  go  upon  the  so|ienntending 
power,  the  whole  absolute  authority  of  evciT 
thing,  of  peace  and  of  war,  and  everv  thin^ 
belonging  to  the  Indian  powers.  They  are 
applied  to,  and  give  their  opinion.  As  to  all 
the  other  forroo' quarrels^  tb^are  nothii^; 
upon  this  very  point,  they  interpose.  If  tfaey 
had  a  jurisdiction,  in  the  cause,  and  pro- 
ceeded as  having  » jurisdiction,  it  would  have 
'  been  conclusive  evidence ;  but  it  is  not  con- 
clusive evidence  at  present;  I  think  it  ex- 
ceedingly proper  in  a  question  so  situated  la 
be  receivea  as  evidence,  though  not  con- 
clusive. 

Mr.  Lee.  The  question  is,  whether  it  is 
competent  evidence  to  be  received  or  not. 

Mr.  Dunning.  I  stated  something  about 
the  former  commission^  about  the  authority 
given  to  lord  Pigot 

Court,    Don't  go  into  that  now« 

Mr.  Dunning,  I  had  very  little  to  have 
said  on  that  subject;  but  I  shall  not  go 
into  it. 

An,  Gen,  I  can,  with  very  little  tfouUe, 
turn  to  those  parte  of  the  evidence,  tfail 
shew  the  two  charges  contained  in  that 
former  letter  to  Be^al,  upon  lord  PigoC\ 
supposed  ill  behaviour  to  the  nabobs  srs 
fairly  refuted  by  the  nabob ;  I  do  not  know 
whether  your  lordship  is  of  ofMuion  it  is 
proper  to  be  read  now. 
.  Court.  Exercise  your  own  judgment;  it 
has  veiy  little  to  do  with  the  oon^>iaant. 

Att.  Gen.    1  mean  the  cpm^«int  nf 
ing  the  m9Q  9t  Aridore» 


119S] 


t»d  ofhentjitr  dlyom^  Lord  Ptgot- 


A.D.  1779. 


[1194 


Court,  Strilie  out  that  about  Aridore; 
we  are  not  trying  the  nabob's  complaint 

Mr.  Rous,  You  will  find  that  account  in 
SeSf  the  examination  of  captain  Tonyn. 

Mr.  I>«?tfitfi^.  Am  I  to  have  a  new  case 
to  what  has  been  already  defended  ? 

Lord  Mansfield,  It  arises  out  of  3^our  evi- 
dence; they  will  contradict  a  part  of  the  an- 
swer of  the  council  of  Bengal. 

Mr.  Kenytm,  By  accident  that  circum- 
stance has  crept  into  the  letter,  to  shew  they 
^proved  of  our  proceeding.  ' 

Au„Gen.  The  Bengal  people  were  mi»- 
taken  in  that ;  read  it. 

Mr.  Dunning.  Nothing  upon  that  subject 
will  be  granted  by  me.  I  wul  not  be  knock- 
ed down  by  calling  out,  read  it.— It  shall  not 
be  read  without  my  lord  desires  it.  I  have 
read  that  letter,  which  is  an  answer  to  the 
two  letters,  one  received  from  lord  Pigot. 
the  other  from  the  majority  of  the  council 
to  oppose  lord  Pieot;  the  receipt  of  those 
two  letters  are  acknowledged  by  the  answer 
in  the  first  instance  as  weO  as  the  last,  the 
general  substance  of  those  letters  are  taken 
notice  of  in  it;  and  it  professes  them "io  be 
received  from  liiose  quarters.  Besides  that, 
there  is  a  passage  or  two  said  to  be  founded 
upon  an  information  from  the  nabob;  whether 
it  was  so  fomided  I  am  at  a  loss  to  state ;  I 
.was  not  aware  it  contained  any  thing  of  that 
sort,  but  thought  it  was  an  answer  to  some- 
thing received  from  lord  Pigot. 

Court,  You  could  Qot  separate  the  other 
parts  from  it. 

Mr.  Dunning.  I  understand  from  what 
has  been  stated  by  the  gentlemen,  what  was 
stated  on  the  nabob's  information  waa  not  true. 

Mr.  Mansfield.  The|re  are  two  instances 
stated^  in  that  letter  from  the  governor  and 
council  of  Bengal,  of  lord  Pigot  having  used 
the  nabob  ill ;  and  there  is  a  great  deafmore 
4>f  it,  which  is  wrong,  besides  these  two  par- 
ticulars. 

Mr.  Rous,  •  My  lord ;  respecting  the  inter- 
nal government  of  Madras,  or  any  transac- 
tions relative  to  it,  that  letter  ought  not  to 
be  received  as  evidence  in  this  court;  but 
upon  the  ground  of  their  superintendency, 
and  their  power  in  matters  of  peace  and  war. 

As  a  ground  for  the' exercise  of  that  super- 
intending power,  they  la^  their  fingers  upon 
two  facts :  first,  the  seizing  the  £bbeer  at 
Arielore,  which  theysay  was  a  hostile  inva^ 
aion  upon  the  nabob's  territory ;  that  we  will 
prove  IS  not  true  in  fact  *.  the  next  is,  seizing 
flotne  districts  in  the  nabob's  territory ;  that  we 
•  will  prove  is  not  the  fact ;  we  will  prove,  from 
the  admission  of  the  defendants,  the  districts 
belonged  to  the  nyah  in  1763 ;  and  that  they 
were  at  the  time  lord  Pigot  was  seized  ac- 
tually in  possession  of  the  nabob.  Then  the 
sole  foundation  upon  which  they  presumed  to 
deliver  an  opinion,  and  upon  which  it  can  be 
reoeived  as  evidence,  is  destroyed  by  proving 
$he  facts  do  not  exist. 

Jdr.  JDuming^  I  an  content  the  whole  of 


the  letter  may  be  expunged  with  those  facts; 
but  I  object  to  their  reading  any  letters  in 
this  stage  of  the  business. 
-  Ccnrt.   They  may  reply  to  your  evidence  if 
they  think  it  material. 

Mr.  Dunning.  Is  this  a  reply  to  our  evi- 
dence } 

Court.  Yes,  to  the  evidence  you  read  in 
your  letter  from  the  council  of  Ben^l ;  now' 
they  say  that  great  credit  should  not  be  given 
to  them ;  for  the  fact  is  mistaken :  and  if 
much  depended  upon  that  fact,  it  would  be 
material  evidence. 

Mr.  Dunning.  So  much  of  the  fact,  as  has 
any  relation  to,  or  is  founded  upon  what  in- 
formation was  received  from^  tne  nabob,^  so 
much  of  the  letter  I  am  content  to  wave  and 
expimge.  I  have  only  to  say,  it  was  read 
because  I  was  not  aware  it  contaiiied  any 
such  thing. 

Court.  You  could  not  have  avoided  it,  if 
you  had  been  aware ;  you  must  have  read  itie 
whole,  if  they  had  claimed  it. 

Mr.  Wilson.  I  see  in  this  letter  thev  have 
opinions  upon  undisputed  facts,  which  go  to 
the  other  facts  they  received  an  account  of 
from  the  nabob,   which  if  true  arc  equally 

disapproved. ^The  officer  was  then  going 

to  read  minutes  of  the  consultation  upon  the 
11th  of  September,  1776. 

Mr.  Dunning.  When  I  stand  up,  and  ob- 
ject to  reading  a  paper,  do  not  rcaa  it,  unlesa 
my  lord  bids  you. 

Court.  To  besure  they  may  read  it,  if  it  is 
to  impeach  any  evidence  you  have  read. 

Mr.  Dunning.  It  is  to  impeach  the  evi- 
dence only  in  a  point  I  do  not  dispute. 

Court,  But  if^  they  have  a  mind  to  read  it, 
they  may  if  they  please ;  they  had  rather 
have  it  read  as  their  evidence,  than  from  your 
admission ;  I  don't  know  why. 

At  a  consultation  1 1th  Sept.  1776,  present 
George  Stratton,  esq.  and  council ; — Tne  exa- 
mination of  captain  Tonyn,  read, — relating 
to  seizing  the  dobbeer  at  Arielore. 

The  purport  of  which  was;  That  he  had 
received  an  order  in  writing  from  lord  Pigot, 
to  proceed  with  the  troops  under  his  command 
to  Vickerum ;  and  escort,  from  that  place  to 
Tamore,  the  dobbeer  formerly  in  the  service 
of  tne  rajah. 

When  he  came  to  Vickerum,  found  him 
gone  to  Arielore ;  went  there  to  him. — That 
one  of  the  rajah's  people  delivered  a  letter  to 
the  dobbeer  from  the  rajah,  who  proposed 
setting  out  immediately  .<~That  captain  Tonyn 
told  him  he  was  come  to  escort  him  to  Tan- 
jore. — ^That-they  set  off  the  next  morning, 
very  early;r-That  he  did  not  acquaint  the 
dol)beer  it  was  necessary  for  him  to  take  any 

gapers  with  him,  nor  does  he  know  that  any 
ody  else  did. 

Court.  1  see,  from  what  has  been  read, 
they  desired  information  respecting  particular 
facts  which  the  nabob  told  them  of;  the^ 
write  about  it  to  Ben^;  and  they  send  their 


119SI 


1»  GEORGE  IIL 


fitohitiflng  to  coptroul  thg  proctf^iny  of  tht 

Mr.  Xtjuf.  They  have  no  tart  of  coDtrool 
by  the  vonfe  of  tbe  Act  as  to  llieir  iolenial 
gorenmieot. 

C4mrt.  Not  with  tbe  govcrnoieat;  but 
when  they  are  all  together  by  the  ears^  nobodjF 
can  interooM  if  tbey  do  not. 

Mr.  Lihd.  My  lord,  the  govcmoi  and 
council  have  no  command  of  the  focoefl^  so 
that  way  they  could  not  have  interfered. 

At  a  eoamltition  95th  of  Jane  1776,  pre- 
sent aa  before,  the  president  and  council.  £n- 
qujrv  into  the  nabob's  complaint  of  the 
Tajan'8  people  taking  part  of  Iuk  territories, 
frc.  in  which  those  complaints  are  refuted. 

Reply. 
Att.  Gen.  Please  your  lordship^and  gentle 
men  of  the  jury;  I  am  under  a  necessity  of 
troubling  you  again ;  but  I  wiU  endeavour, 
upon  your  and  my  own  account,  to  comprise 
what  I  have  to  say  to  you,  iiKw  small  a  aropa 
as  I  can ;  and  pot  run  asun  into  the  variety 
of  matters  which  have  Deen  agitated  in  the 
close  of  the  dav,  and  which  do  not  seam  to 
me  to  be  strictly  and  pointedly  applicable  to 
tbe  infofmation  which  youare  to  try.  In  the 
cutset  of  the  business,  I  statfd  to  you  under 
what  countenance  and  authority  this  inibrmar 
tion  was  brought  to  a  trial ;  I  staled  the  di- 
rection I  had  for  the  prosecution;  I  stated 
the  resolutions  that  had  recently  passed  in 
tile  court  of  proprietors,  wb«n  the  matter  was 
first  canvassed,  upon  the  first  infioraialian 
oomiBf  to  England.  The  first  authentic  in- 
formation, aod  that  firequantly  befiore  the 
proprietors  for  their  infonnation,  was  a  long 
letter  from  Mr.  Stratton  and  his  associates,  in 
vindication  of  their  proceedings,  to  the  Di» 
rectors  of  the  East  India  Company  at  home ; 
which  letter  was  immediately  put  into  print. 
I  was  not  inaccurate  in  stating  the  iiNKuiition 
of  the  general  court  of  proprietora^-^howcver 
they  dmered  in  some  circumstances,,  tiiey 
were  all  uniform  to  one  point ;  the  second 
lesolution,  as  strongly  as  the  first,,  inculcated 
and  commanded  the  restpring  loiid  Pigotto 
the  gevenmient  The  first  resolution  of  the 
court  of  proprietors,  was  to  take  immediate 
and  direct  steps  to  restore  lord  Pigot;  there 
was  some  difference  after  in  tlie  mode  of  it, 
by  a  change  of  the  direction,  and  some  delay  i 
but  there  was  no  variatien  from  the  ideas, 
that  lord  Pigot  was  wrongfully  dismissed 
from  the  govemmeot.  Mr.  Rumbold,  who 
went  out  with  a  commission  from  the  East 
India  Company,  went  out  with  express  orders 
to  restore  lord  Pigot  to  the  government ;  to 
put  the  government  again  in  the  possession 
of  lord  Pwot:  so  fitf  they  diMpproved  of 
what  had  oeen  dona  in  the  acts  whicbthey 
conceived  to  be  totally  ille^,  byStralton  and 
those  joined  with  him.  Separately  from  that 
order,  there  was  another,  that  the  parties  int 
this  business  were  supposed  to  be  much 
baited  agahisl  OM  anothfli^  and  weps  diraelad 


m  tha  Uoose  of  Coaunons^  thoa  ifstrisly 
was  very  Ibtt  tkawlialinn  and  eoaipltls 
evidence  laid  heSan  that  iftonse,  aaCaceKBt 
todiMctingthispfosecatkm:  il  was  thoigbl, 
wHMLd  itm  power  of  that  beaach  of  tbe  l^|is> 
lature,  profhcr  to  be  done,  aai  eonastaat  aith 
thck  dn^,  in  ofdo  to  brai§[  the  oAadsrsto 
public  justice.  It  was  SBid,majnaaier  of  this 
aort  theymiefat  have  done  one  thittg  Afomt; 
thqr  might  have  made  it  their  ewnpiaiaca* 
tioB,— and  the  magnitude  af  the  cause  would 
aot  hasre  ^1  des»ved  it;^aMl  have  beta 
themselvea  the  porosacutais^  by  iBaeadaDiB^ 
at  the  bar  f^  the  other  post  of  the  iigisktaN. 
Though  that  vraa  not,  in  my  judgment,  in- 
adequate to  such  a  case  aa  this;  I  am  madi 
better  pleased  with  this,  whoever  adrisal 
the  oMMle  to  be  adopted,  for  the  AttoriMy 
General  to  prosecute;  for  this  alain  wsstiv 
I  think  this  isagras^aadwill  be  auMBs- 
ESble  case  for  ezampie ;  as  it  wtk  not  oaljp 
be  doing  justice  in  tms  particular  insteaca;  tf 
tha*  were  all  the  object  of  it,  and  the  pOHb* 
ment  went  ne  Ibrther  than  to  make  sams^ 
gree  of  compensation  to  private  peiseM,  far 
unnries  they  will  feel  to  the  last  hour  of  tbiir 
lite,  it  would  not  be  a  sufficient  ground  ibr 
i«»^«*iiMp  of  pupishmcDt;  •  for  that  partakes 
more  of  private  revenge.  The  only  cad  I 
know  of  jMniriunent,  is  for  example  to  otbos; 
tot  the  fireaervation  of  the  osder  of  society; 
and  making  distinctions  between  tbe  nstoie 
ef  small,  and  j;reat  ofiedders,  for  the  comiM^- 
aion  of  crimes  that  endanger  the  pesos  sad 
well  being  of  society.  I  for  one  think  the  ef* 
Ulctof  thatenmol^  is  better  attained  in  ti« 
course ;  by  exhibiting  to  all  who  were  in 
India  and  all  who  may  meditate  to  go  to  Indis^ 
to  be  in  rule  1iiere,tmitinthecourtofluiig'»- 
bench,  and  by  a  jury  of  Enaliahmns,  the  con- 
duct and  the  behaviour,  the  afiairs  of  >  8^ 
vemor  and  council  in  India,  nMycooae  to  be 
seruitiniaed ;  aa  inan  ordinary  course  of  justice 
the  fiuality  of  carrying  on  such  piosecutiaaft; 
the  fivquency  of  them>  if  the  example  should 
call  for  it,  will  strike  much  more  in  P^^^^J 
example,  and  be  a  S(d)ject  much  more  usem^ 
than  the  great  and  uncommon  wny  of  pmiecai- 
tu>n,  atUmded  with  all  the  solenmirrof  im- 
peachment by  the  Cemmeos  ai  England  st 
the  bar  of  the  Lords.  For  this  reason,  it  i% 
I  am  ffhul  tins  mode  of  nroseeution  ^ 
adopted,  and  I  am  commanoed  to  do  it  I 
sitaii  say  no  more  to  ciicumstanees  ^^mi^6J^|* 
the  strict  merits  of  the  cause.  G«ntiea«^ 
you  will  now  give  me  leave^  Ibra  momeat,  to 
call  your  attention  to  what  thoee  marits  sic 
I  begleave  to  oonsider,  in  the  first  place,  hs# 
loidPiflot  went  out  to  India;  mderwhatw 
thority  ne  began  to  act,  in  DiBwaa*«  Hffh 
wha&  ha  aim« tiiei«.   HewMtvuddrsa 


1»7] 


mtd  ^jUhdnfJbr  ifpauiag  Lard  Piga. 


A.  D.  177^ 


tnw 


«rder  wlMiT*v««s  aelm^ed  to  heasr'wtB  lioi 
•affiolentiy  positrre;  thouefi  I  ngree  the 
«H<MP»amfK>tWorMwitbtnat  acmracYtny 
^ttameA  fiieiid  would  have  put  to  an  order  of 
I^B  conpositiofi ;  but  I  hftve  read  the  whole 
ottder,  the  language  is  pVain  to  those  purposes 
fotettded  to  be  dUfected  by  it.  It  was  the  ob* 
Ject  of  the  directors,  upon  aeeouat  of  the 
irielaled  honour  of  the  nation  from  thai!  great 
breach  of  faith  committed  rejecting  the 
fiqjah  of  Tanjore,  that  he  should  foe  imm^ 
diately  restored  to  the  possession  of  his  do- 
Bunions,  under  certain  terms  and  conditions 
between  the  raji^  of  Tanjore  and  the  Com- 
pany, not  in  that  instance,  nor  the  rest  of  the 
resolutions  having  reference  to  the  nabob,  but 
tA  the  business  I  shall  state  hereafter*  which 
terms  and  conditions, — ^notwithstanding  this 
«lnnge  comment  put  upon  the  order  from 
some  minutes  read  to  you,---were  not  left  to 
tiie  gentlemen  at  Madras  tb  settle ;  nothing 
lifce  It:  the  order  goes  oti,  and  article  by 
«rtkle,  states  the  terms  tod  conditions  to 
be  made  upon  the  restoration  of  the  rajah. 
If  ^our  loinship  turns  to  the  order,  your  lord- 
tkao  will  find  I  am  correct  in  stating  the  terms 
ana  oboditions  alluded  to  in  that  paragraph. 
The  orders  are  the  subject  of  several  subse- 
quent paragraphs  that  follow  from  about  tiie 
6lh  or  7th ;  the  condition  is,  admitting  a  garri- 
MMfi  of  their  troops  into  Tanjore ;  and  upon  that 
It  IS  stipulated  upon  the  part  of  the  Com- 
|may,^lbr  the  sake  of  the  peace  of  Tanjore, 
and  in  order  to  prevent  any  hostile  intentions 
that  might  spring  up  at  Tanjore  to  endanzer 
the  peace  or  the  Camatic  and  endanger  Sie 
lieaoe  of  the  Company's  settlements,— they 
are  to  assure  him  at  the  same  time,  it  is  not 
intended  there  shall  be  an;^  diminution  of 
the  king  of  Tanjore*s  authority  over  his  sub- 
jects ;  feey  are,  that  the  king  of  Tanjore 
riiatt  consent  to  be  at  the  expence  of  that  ^r- 
mon,  that  if  any  dispute  arises,  respeetms 
the  contingent  or  other  expences,  they  shafl 
be  adjusteo  by  the  king  of  Tanjore's  agents, 
and  president  and  council ;  and  the  accounts 
ibalf  b6  made  up  every  3  months;  that  the 
expence  of  the  garrison  shall  be  settled  be- 
tween the  king  of  Tanjore  and  the  Company ; 
and  he  shall  assign  to  the  Company  revenues 
for  the  maintenance  of  that  garrison.  In 
the  Klating  of  all  these  terms  there  is  no  con- 
dition that  has  the  nabob  for  its  object,  but 
•ne,  Bnd  that  is  distinctly  and  phtiniy  ex- 
pressed :  the  Company  expliun  themselves  to 
Hiean  not  to  infringe  upon  the  just  rights  of 
the  nabob,  and  thev  define  what  those  rights 
ifcre :  that  when  the  king  of  Tanjore  is  restored 
to  the  possession  of  his  dominions,  he  shall 
continue  to  pay  the  tribute  of  four  lacks  of 
itipees,  which  by  the  treaty  of  176S  he  was 
bound  tb  pay  to  the  nabob.  These  are, strictly 
and  plainly,  the  limitations  and  terms  of  the 
business  tnat  was  committed  to  lord  Pigot 
and  his  council  to  be  done  forthwith ;  and  uie 
immediate  restoration  of  the  rajah  is  the  sub- 
ject BptAxu  of  in  evety  line  of  the  iostnxc- 


tftoRs.—- In  ptH-ftmnee  of  those  inBtmctiona^ 
ford  Pigot  went  to  Tanjore;  and  the  S5th  of 
March^  it  was  resolved  he  should  go  frdm 
Fort  St.  George  to  Tai^ore ;  my  learned  friend 
aignes  there  were  no  obstructions  made  to  hit 
proceedings  till  that  period;  and  to  that  pe- 
riod I  acquit  the  defendants  of  any  improper 
motives,  any  connection,  or  any  thins;  that 
could  act  improperly  upon  their  minds.  There 
certainly  is  no  evidence  down  to  the  35th  of 
March,  that  tends  to  create  any  suspicion 
upon  their  conduct;  but  you  will  observe, 
before  that  $5th  of  March,  in  the  letter  that 
was  read,  the  great  object  of  the  nabob  was  to 
postpone,  detay^  protract,  and  put  off  the  re- 
storine  possession  of  the  country.  As  to  the 
firt  01  Tanjore,  he  had  no  objection  to  admit 
the  Company's  troops  to  garrison  the  fort  of 
Tanjore ;  but  he  did  not  chuse  to  restore  the 
possession  of  the  country.  He  writes  letter 
afler  letter,  with  all  the  civility  he  could,  and 
begging  all  that  he  could,  setting  forth  his 
own  merits  with  respect  to  the  Company, 
with  all  the  penonal  address  he  can  use  to 
lord  Pigot ;  and  desires  him,  by  aU  means, 
to  Dostpone,  what  the  Company's  orders  left 
lora  Pigot  no  authority  to  postpone, — ^the  re- 
storation of  the  country,  ne  wanted  to  con« 
tinue  another  year  in  possession  of.  That  was* 
meant  to  be  the  effect  of  his  letters :  a  great 
deal  turns  upon  the  sense  you  will  give  to  th« 
words,  *  restoring  the  rajah  of  Taniore.'  Was 
it  complete  upon  the  14th  of  May  r  Thert  was 
in  Tanpore  a  garrison  of  the  Company's  forces; 
tfie  rajah  was  at  liberty;  buit  to  oe  restored  to 
the  possession  of  his  country,  meant  to  be 
restored  to  the  revenues  of  his  country: 
which  meant  that  he  should  be  restored 
to  the  com  of  that  year,  as  the  com  there 
is  the  "revenue  of  the  country.  As  I  am 
now. upon  it,  let  me  take  notice  of  a  pas^ 
sage  in  this  letter  that  afforded  a  comment 
in  the  ingenious  defence,  which  I  did  not 
think  would  have  been  adopted.  The  Com* 
pany  supposed  the  nabob  was  to  be  in  pos- 
session of  the  country;  and  they  say,  we 
must  suppose  that  the  plunder  of  the  place, 
and  the  receipt  of  the  revenue,  for  moretj^n 
two  years^  will  have  rendered  the  nabob  a 
very  considerable  gainer,  af^er  defraying  all 
the  charges  of  the  expedition. — TheCompany 
reasoned  veiy  rightly,  he  had  been  in  pos^ 
session  that  time;  he  was  in  possession  of 
Tanjore  in  Septcmner  1773  when  the  crop  was 
in  the  ground;  he  had  the  crop  of  1774;  and 
he  had  the  'crop  of  1775  ;^crop  and  revenue 
you  see  are  the  same  thing,  in  that  country; 
he  had  received  the  crop  of  1774,  which  was 
not  sown  by  him ;  he  had  received  the  crop 
of  1775;  and  tiie  crop  of  1776  was  in  the 
mund,  when  the  Company's  orders  arrived ; 
Siat  crop  then  in  the  ground  was  the  great 
object  or  all  the  conflision  and  contention 
upon  the  part  of  the  nabob,  who  claimed  a 
right  to  reap  the  current  year's  crop,— that 
crop  which  was  to  be  reapea  in  1776 ;  though 
the  cooncU  understood  it  otherwise. 


1199] 


19  GEORGE  in.         Pirdcee^ngi  €igdMi  Gmrgfi  atrMtm    •   [ISOO 


Good  God !  it  is  plaio,  to  sdeiiMMistntkM^ 
bow  they  intended  it  at  that  date,  when  no 
influence  operated  upon  their  minds.  Upon 
the  35th  o\  March,  they  direct  lord  Pigot  to 
^0  to  Tanjore ;  the  state  of  the  crop  making 
It  necessary  he  should  proceed  without  delay. 
I;  pon  the  24th  of  AprUy  U|)on  an  application 
made  by  the  rajah  to  lord  Pigot,  who  was  then 
^t  Tanjore,  a^ce  of  which  he  sent  to  Mr. 
Stratton  and  the  council,  they  send  him  a 
letter,  in  answer,  in  which  they  agree  to  buv 
of  the  rajah,  upon  account  of  the  Company,  all 
the  crop  ot  the  year  beyond  the  necessary  quan- 
tity for  the  cDUhumption  of  Taiyore :  and  in 
'  those  two  instances,  they  have  decided  what 
\\icy  understood  to  be  putting  the  rajah  jn  pos- 
session of  ills  country,  that  itmcludes  the  crop 
of  that  year,  which  the  nabob  had  no  colour 
or  pretence  or  right  to  continue,  and  which, 
rigtit  or  wrong,  the  orders  of  the  Company 
left  them  no  latitude  to  give  )iiro ;  unless  it 
was  under  that  strange  idea  that  the  words 
'  for  more,'  might  extend  to  keep  the  n^x>b 
in  possession  to  the  ^  end  of  time.  If  lord 
Pigot  had  not  complied  with  those  orders  of 
the  Court  of  Directors,  he  would  have  deserved 
the  epithets  which  are  much  more  properly 
applied  to  other  persons.  That  was  not  all ; 
upon  the  ^9th  of  May,  upon  the  examination 
of  Mr.  Benfield*s  claims,  founded  upon  the  as- 
signments made  by  the  nabob,  that  affected 
the  current  crop  of  the  year,  the  coimcil  then 
decide,  by  a  majority, — not  a  casting  vote  of 
lord  Pigot,  but  6  to  5, — they  decide  the  na- 
bob's assignments  inadmissible.  Most  un- 
doubtedly they  were  so,  with  respect  to  that 
,  crop  which  was  upon  the  ground ;  for,  from  the 
time  of  the  arrrival  of  the  Company's  orders, 
the  possession  of  the  nabob  was  to  cease ;  and 
the  possession  of  the  rajah  to  commence. 
I'he  nabob  by  writing,  by  negociations,  and  by 
gentle  methods,  thought  to  prevail  upon  lord 
Pieqjl  to  delay  the  time;  that  carried  it  up 
till  towards  the  time  of  harvest,  about  the 
beginning  of  March  or  April.  The  whole 
matter,  therefore,  that  produced  resistance, 
and  tlie  cause  of  all  the  mischief  that  ensued, 
arose  from  the  single  question  which  had 
been  agitated  and  determined  upon  the  39th 
of  May,  respecting  the  possession  of  the  coun- 
try of  Tanjore,  to  Be  restored  according  to  the 
tenor  of  the  Company's  orders,  which  in- 
cluded the  possession  of  the  crop  of  the  year 
1776,  which  belonged  to  the  rajah  and  not 
the  nabob. 

Mr.  Dunning.  It  belonged  to  the  crop  of 
what  was  sown  in  1776. 

Att.  Gen.  I  beg  your  pardon:  the  nabob 
had  reaped  that. 

Mr.  punning.  In  1775,  Benfield  was  in 
possession  of  them;  and  was  deprived  of 
them  in  1776. 

Att,  Gen.  I  stated,  that  the  assignment  of 
Mr.  Benficld^s  possession  of  the  com,  men- 
tions they  are  in  the  hands  of  his  officers ; 
and  that  they  say,  and  he  says,  and  only  says, 
they  were  taken  from  ]m  Qmw  by  seapoys; 


fletiog^imda'  the  CompM^^  <viBs.  Aifep 
that,^the  orders  the  seapofs  were  fim^shM 
with,  if  any  vfen  givei^--4ie  is  called  upoo  to 
point  out  anj  put  wfaiflh  wis  the  propo^ 
taken  fram  bun  hj  any  sespoys;  and  thej 
held  up  redress  to  him.  Kit  the  objects  of 
oomplamt,  broudit  the  SOtfa  of  Mav,  to  the 
C<«ipany,  are  toe  assignments  made  by  the 
nabol^  and  taken  prior  to  March  1775,— the 
mortgages  upon  the  growing;  crop  of  tbs 
ground, — the  other  article  of  claim,  was  ad- 
vances made  to  inhabitants,  in  August,  in 
September,  and  in  Octobef  J775,  to  enbk 
them  to  put  the  crop  in  the  ground,  through 
the  medium  of  the  nabob's  son ;  for  which 
he  said  he  had  their  bonds,  which  woe  Dot 
in  his  own,  but  in  somebody's  hands  to  be  re- 
gistered ;  tiiey  are  never  produced ;  the  other 
two  articles  of  assignments,  are  for  old  debti 
upon  the  Tanjore  revenues.  Observe  the  as- 
signments bear  no  date :  and  they  are  nefer 
produced.  He  says  that  one  b  an  order  udod 
ruttestah;  and  one  on  Papanashem;  tkey 
have  no  dates ;  the  money  advanced  to  the 
nabob  might  luave  been  taken,  from  Benfield's 
story,  as  advanced  from  the  January  or  Fe- 
bruary in  the  course  of  that  year ;  but  tbat  is 
quite  another  question :  but  the  assiEoment 
aven  to  him,  by  way  of  mortgage,  could  not  be 
the  crop  of  com,  but  the  mortgage  of  the  hoi 
year's  grain ;  but  it  is  the  corn  then  in  the 
ground,  that  is  clauned ;  the  rigbt  aaserted^  is 
to  keep  that  crop,  in  consequence  of  the  light 
of  the  nabob  ;  which  was  aderwards  affirmed 
by  the  vote  of  the  council,  no  doubt  when 
they  stated  what  the  council  resolved :  it  was 
not  contended  so  impudently  afterwards,  for 
they  say  in  one  of  their  letters,  they  only 
recommended,  they  don't  mevn  to  enforce* 
Good  God!  If  they  only  meant  to  recomr 
mend,  and  not  to  enforce,  what  meant  that 
ungrounded  resolution  of  theurs, — the  first  of 
the  three  motions,  -made  upon  the  daims^ 
made  upon  Benfield's  claims,  that  the 
nabob  bad.  a  right  to  the  crop  of  the 
year?  I  cannot  torget  that  question  was 
put,  and  they  have  affirmed  it  without 
examination  or  evidence.  And  it  they  af- 
firmed it,  it  must  be  by  the  argumeot  of 
Brooke ;  but  upon  no  argument  that  I  can 
conceive,  should  they  have  affirmed  it  To 
follow  the  progress  of*  what  I  am  going  ^ 
st^te,  the  sole  cause  which  affected  the 
whole,  was  the  assertion  they  then  nwde, 
that  tlie  nabob  had  a  right  to  the  crop  in  the 
ground,  sown  in  1775  (and  then  lord  Pigot 
arrived,)  to  be  reaped  in  1776.  In  theM^ 
bob's  letter,  when  he  Uiks  of  having  made 
assignments  of  that  crop,  he  makes  use  of  A 
.  as  an  argument  and  reason,  why  he  should  be 
allowed  to  reap  it.  He  lis  c&Ued  upon,  befofo 
Benfield  appears  upon  the  stage,  to  expto 
what  these  assignments  were,  to  whom  made, 
and  to  give  an  account  of  tlie  receipts  and  dis- 
bursements upon  accomit  of  Tanjore^  to  sbc« 
how  the  account  stood ;  he  never  gives  that 
accguBt,  but  taUb  obscnrely  and  mystoiou^l 

§ 


t»i3 


and  olkertfjar  deporing  Lord  Pigot. 


A.  D.  1779- 


[isoe 


aJMUfc  the  assi^mentSy  though  the  question 
was  put  to  him  by  the  council;   he  never 
answers,  in  subsequent  letters,  when  they 
GiU  upon  him  to  explain  them.    You  are  to 
judge,  gentlemen^  wtien  the  business  of  the> 
nabc^  was  brought  forward  in  the  shape  of 
Beafield'a    dalmf^    why   Benfield's   claims 
should  have  better  fortune  with  the  council 
than  the  application  to  the  same  effect  and 
purpose  urged  by  the  nabob,  from  December 
to  March,  which  seems  to  have  had  no  effect, 
f  hey  did  not  avail  in  the  mind  of  the  council ; 
they  did  not  prevent  the  orders  to  lord  Pigot, 
to  ^  to  Tanjore,  the  state  of  the  crop  re- 
quiring he  s&ould  then  go ;  bv  the  orders  of 
vie   39th  of  May,  the   resolution   of  the 
"  council  then  was,  the  assimroents  of  the 
nabob  to    Benfield  are   iosSmissible, — how 
came   Benfield  to  be  acsin  consulted  ?^  I 
stated  in  the  opening. all  I  could  hear  of 
Benfield;    with  this    confidence,  that  if  I 
had  been  inaccurate  in  stating  it,  I  should 
have  an  opportunity  of  being  set  right,  by  a 
poflsible  conversation   with  Benfield.     Can 
any  body,  who  heard  me,  conceive  that  it 
should  not  occur  to  the  defendants  to  judge, 
and   say,  whether  they  did  or  not  think 
pfoper  to.  examine  Benfield  ?  and  the  reason 
'    vliy  he  is  not  produced  is  clear.    In  all  these 
xHreceedines,  during  the  whole  course  of  them, 
Benfield  oeing  the  origin  of  all  this  evil ; 
the  ^putes  springing  out  of  Benfield's  busi- 
nese ;  ne  now  in  England ;    is  it  possible  to 
imagine,  if  Benfield  cOuld  have  cleared  up  the 
matter  favourably  for  the  defendants,  his  tes- 
timony would  not  have  been  used  upon  this 
occasion?   'Ntt.  Dunning  was  perfectly  right, 
to  sav  he  was  not  counsel  for  Benfield.    I 
staled  it  &irly ;    and  urged  the  necessity  of 
calling  Benfield ;  vou  wiUJudge  how  far  I 
fHLit  it  justly;    I  nave  not  put  it  unfairly. 
JBenfield  is  existing  here  in  £ngland,  and  ca^ 
pable  of  being  produced  to  be  called  as  a  wit- 
ness if  tiiey  pleased ;   and  he  is  not  called  to 
explain  one  of  these  transactions,  or  to  wipe 
st^miy  the  inference,  that  arises  from  so  enor- 
SBOU6  a  claim  as  950,000/.  starting  up  in  the 
person  of  Benfield,  and  that  claim  succeed- 
jiftg  to  procure  not  only  a  recommendation  to 
-the  nuah  in  his  favour,  but  other  resolutions 
of  the  Doard  in  his  favour,  and  a  decision  in  far- 
^rour  of  the  nabob ; — not  the  very  moment,  but 
almost  -^irectiy  as  soon  as  a  majority  was  sot 
together,  to  procure  a  decision    upon  the 
jasusob's  claims,  which,  notwithstanding  direct 
3J[id  repeated  applications  from  the  nabob, 
t>efore  they  had  constantly  refused  !  When  I 
those  fads  staring  me  so  broadly  in  the 
iace,  is  it  possible  for  me  to  entertain  so  very 

nilky  a  candour  upon  this  business,  as  not  to 

discover  the  fact  r  or  is  it  possible  for  your 

janinds  to  be  so  far  divested  of  all  reason,  as 

xsot  to  conclude  it  was  the  easiest  of  all  pos- . 

^\Ae  matters  to  put  assignments  in  the  hands 

4jf  Benfield  ?  If  they  prevailed,  they  dragged 

^iJ^^er  them  the  possession  of  the  revenues  for 

^i^other  year;  they  had  that  effect;  whether 

^OL.  XXI. 


they  pushed  the  matter  afterwards,  was  not  of 
such  consequence ;  that  dropped  in  the  course 
of  the  argument;  I  don't  know  whetiier  the 
fact  is  so  or  not ;  I  believe  the  matter  rested^ 
and  has  not  taken  effect  in  the  Taniore  coun-' 
tn';  for  what  happened  afterwaros  was  the 
effect  of  the  events  not  foreseen  at  that  time. 
However  Mr.  BenfieJd*s  claim  prevailed;  they 
were  adopted,,  and  bad  the  effect  with  them  to 
substantiate  the  nabob's  claims;  they  are  de* 
cided  directly,  l^  a  resolution  the  nabob  had 
a  right  and  title  to  the  revenues  of  that 
year.  To  the  resolutions  upon  the  head  of 
Benfield's  claims,  succeeds  tne  contest  about 
a  person  toeo  to  Tanjore. 

Give  me  leave  to  observe  upon  what  you 
have  heard  in  this  case,  upon  that  head,,  it  is 
very  extraordinary;  ti^l  now  it  did  not  seem 
to  me'  to  be  in  the  compas^  of  men  of  th0  - 
most  mischievous  imagination,  to  devise  a 
method  to  put  a  government  in  confusion^ 
and  overturn  it  upon  so  simple  a  matter  as 
a  question  of  who  should  be  appointed  to  go 
to  Tanjore  to  attend  the  rajah  at  this  par- 
ticular moment.  I  before  stated,  that  it  ap« 
peared,  they  were  to  carry  recommendations 
to  the  rajah,  though  they  had  voted  it  was 
the  nabob's  right ;  so  long  as  they  could 
cany  it  civilly,  they  meant  to  do  it ;  there* 
fore,  say  they,  we  meant  to  send  a  retom* 
mendation  to  the  rajah  to  shew  attention 
to  Mr.  Benfield :  if  they  stayed  so  long  as  to  ' 
let  the  rajah  get  into  possesion  of  the  crop, 
liable  only  to  representations  in  behalf  of 
just  clalm»  that  might  be  made  upon  it.  they 
Knew  there '  woula  be  an  answer  to  them ; 
they  knew  there  would  be  no  possesion 
taken,  that  the  gmin  might  be  disposed  of; 
and  the  matter  would  run  into  length,  and 
might  terminate  afterwards  in  a  reference  to 
the  directors  at  home.  Their  object  was  th« 
keeping*  possession  of  the  rajah's  country; 
to  conduct  such  a  scheme,  therefore,  it  was 
essentially  necessary,  tliat  they  should  endea* 
vour  to  send  a  man  of  conhdence,  to  talk 
proper  language  to  tiie  rajah;  as  that  was  a 
matter  upon  which  the  whole  hinged,  who* 
ther  the  orders  of  the  Company  should  bf 
carried  into  complete  execution,  or  not ;  who* 
ther  the  matter  should  be  with  the  rajah  or 
the  nabob.  As  to  the  crop  of  177(3,  tha 
whole  of  it,  they  thought,  was  perfectly  de« 
pendent  upon  that:  their  object  therefore 
was  to  send  col.  Stuart,  and  to  prevent  Mr. 
Rnssel  from  ^oins.  As  to  col.  StuarVs  going, 
my  learned  triena  sug^sted  very  gocd  rea- 
sons and  made  very  ingenious  comments* 
upon  col.  Stuart's  lettet-,  respecting  his  rea^ 
sons,  why  he  should' prefer  tne  copamand  at 
Tanjore  to  Vellore,  and  referred  to  the  ima- 
gine<i  dangers,  hinted  at  in  one  of  the  mi- 
nutes, to  uie  supposed  designs  of  the  French 
in  concurrence  with  Hvder  Aly,  the  rajah  of 
Mysore.  If  they  had  had  better  to  have 
given  for  adopting  col.  StuarVs  object  of 
going  to  Tanjore,  they  would  have  given  . 
tiiem ;  unfortunately  for  those  reasons  and- 

4  H  . 


1203] 


19  GEORGE  ni.  Proceedings  againa  George  Siratiom         [1201 


my  learned  friend'f  obsenrations,  the  reasons 
tliey  adopted  were  false;  there  was  no  alarm 
from  the  French,  the  true  reasons  were  of 
another  kind,  there  was  not  any  intimation  of 
Tanjore  being  a  post  of  honour,  and  the  most 
important  situation  in  that  respect ;  yet  that 
was  the  argument  urged  upon  the  other  side. 
If  this  importance  were  true,  so  far  as  it  re- 
garded the  defendants  in  a  political  sense, 
it  was  not  in  a  military  sense  so  important  as 
Vellore;  but  the  other  sort  of  importance 
^was  quite  of  another  kind ;  there  is  no  doubt, 
tmdcr  their  command  at  Vellore,  there  were 
500  Europeans,  at  Tanjore  only  100.  Col. 
Stuart  f^tates,  as  second  m  command,  he  was 
entitled  to  the  post  of  Tanjore  if  that  was  not 
supplied  by  sir  R.  Fletcher  himself^  inti- 
mating that  which  never  took  f  ffect, — what 
be  thought, — ^that  they  had  a  right  to  send 
more  troops  there.  What  necessity  was 
there  for  sending  him  there,  whilst  t)ie  force 
at  Tanjore  was  so  uheaual  to  the  command 
of  ^n  officer  of  col.  atuart's  rank?  sir  R. 
Fletcher's  reason  is  not  so  i^ell  applied  upon 
this  case,  as  my  learned  friend's,  which  was 
extremely  ingenious ;  but  sir  R,  Fletcher's  is 
.not  among  tae  nature  of  those  to  which  we 
ascribe  the  term  ingenuity,  it  is  only  finding 
a  false  reason  when  an  ingenious  one  could 
not  occur  to  liim :  sir  R.  I'letcher  reasons  in 
this  manner ;  he  wishes  to  have  col.  Stuart's 
sentiments  regarding  the  state  of  the  fort 
and  country  of  Tanjore,  with  respect  to  their 
defence;  particularly  at  a  time  when  there 
is  intelligence  of  armaments  coming  from 
France.  Lord  Pigot  answers  it,  and  says  he 
should  be  glad  to  have  col.  Stuart's  opinion 
upon  the  defence  of  Tanjore ;  he  wished  to 
have  an  officer  of  his  experience  to  report 
what  the  state  of  the  defences  was ;  but  that 
imaginalion  of  an  alarm  from  the  French, — 
which  was  only  an  ima^nation  in  the  first 
place,---was  deserted,  and  all  the  rest  of  the 
reasoning  goes  upon  the  recommendations  of 
the  commander  m  chief.  One  of  the  gentle- 
men takes  notice,  that  it  is  the  Company's 
orders  attention  should  be  paid  to  tne  re- 
commendations of  the  commander  in  chief; 
however,  it  was  determined  Mr.  Russel  w;is 
not.  to  go.  And  it  was  slated  to  you  with 
great  candour, — my  learned  friend  feels  ob- 
servations of  that  kind,  which  are  only  to  be 
conducted  with  the  utmost  degree  of  candour, 
•—that  tjicrc  was  no  ground  for  lord  Pigot's 
pressing  for  him  to  eo  only  for  a  tew  day?; 
tiiose  reasons  have  been  explained  to  yoQ ; 
find  not  for  the  reasons  that  occurred  to  me 
and  my  ingenuity  only,  but  the  effect  it 
would  nave  upon  the  rajah  firom  beine  unin- 
formed and  prejudiced,  was  siiggostecfby  my 
learned  friend,  and  some  other  reasons  of  a 
nrivate  nature,  why  it  was  expedient  for  Mr. 
liuasel  to  go  to  Tanjore.  Now,  gentlemen, 
^fter  all  that  has  been  said  upon  this  subject, 
perhaps  I  do  not  hazard  a  very  improper  con- 
jecture, or  a  wild  one,  if  I  concluae,  posi- 
tjvsly  and  certainly^  that  you  may,  many  of 

,1 


you,  be  of  opinion  that  all  tiiat  has  happened 
at  that  place,  at  the  time  it  did  happefi,  could 
not  have  happened  witbout  the  iimcieiice  of 
those  gentlemen,  and-  indnoements  operating 
upon  the  one  side  or  the  other,— I  ask  no 
more.  I  think  it  probable  you  may  be  of 
opinion,  that  the  consideration  of  money  may 
have  weidied  upon  this  business,  on  one  side 
or  the  other.  As  to  ideas  of  imputation  that 
the  members  of  the  coundl  mi«;ht  be  sup- 
posed to  have  entertained,  and  the  infercDce 
they  might  draw  from  Mr.  RusseFs  going  to 
Tanjore,  you  wiO  judge  how  they  are  fouiid- 
ed,  from  the  conduct  of  both  sides.  I  offered 
Mr.  Monckton,  the  intimate  friend  of  lonl 
Pigot,  his  son  in  law,  acquainted  with  eveiy 
transaction,  even  the  most  secret  that  coidd 
be  discovered  by  his  papers,  who  performed 
the  part  of  executor, — I  offered  him,  upon  the 
most  public  examinations  on  that  head,  la 
shew  lord  Pigot  was  in  thict  part  of  his  li^, 
as  well  as  every  other,  superior  to  all  things 
of  that  kind,  where  his  duty  was  concerned. 

Upon  the  other  side,  they  did  not  produce 
Mr.  Benfield.  Now  I  repeat  it  again,  I  cannot 
conceive  it  possible  for  any  man  to  ii 
that  in  this  case,  connected  as  Benfield  is 
with  it,  Mr.  Benfield  should  not  be  called 
upon  to  give  evidence,  if  -they  had  tho«^t  it 
expedietit  for  Mr.  Benfield  to  have  stood  the 
examination. 

Mr.  Dunning.  My  learned  friend  seems 
surprised,  that  I  did  not  call  Mr.  Benfidd. 
If  Mr.  Benfield  bad  been  here,  I  should  haTe 
called  him.  Mr.  Benfield  is  not  here  :  it  is 
impossible  for  human  ingenuity  to  find  out 
from  the  information,  any^thing  coDceming 
Benfield.  I  myself  confess  my  idea  in  the 
course  of  the  business,  in  a  charge  like  this^ 
where  neither  the  name  of  Benfield  appean^ 
nor  his  claims,  directly  or  indirectly,  Ifeor 
charges  of  corruption,  of  any  sort  or  kind 
whatsoever,  against  him,  it  would  no  mora 
occur  to  me  to  call  upon  Mr.  Benfield  to  be 
produced  as  a  witness,  than  to  send  for  the 
nabob. 

Court.  To  be  sure  there  is  nothing  in  tbt 
information  that  imports  it. 

Att,  Gen,  Is  there  nothing  in  the  inlbmtt> 
tion  that  leads  \o  the  name  of  Benfield  ? 

Court.    Not  to  a  charge  of  corruption. 

Att.  Gen.  Is  there  noUiing  that  leads  to  it? 

Mr.  Dunning.  There  is  no  such  charge  in 
the  information. 

Att.  Gen.  To  restore  Tanjore,  is  to  respire 
the  revenues  of  it ;  to  keep  possession  of  Tan- 
jore, is  to  keep  possession  of  the  revenues  of 
Tanjore;  they  are  convertible  terms.  It  is 
impressed  upon  my  own  mind,  whoever  exa- 
mines these  facts  (you  see  we  have  upoo  all 
sides  carefully  read  these  proofs)  must  Invc 
been  aware  how  material  it  was  to  the  lutnre 
conduct  of  this  business,  to  shew  the  legmlitr 
or  excuse  upon  the  one  side  or  the  other  ;*uiii 
to  shew  the  conduct  of  Mr.  Benfield^  Iroim 
which  all  the  subsequent  matters  originate. 
If  they  wtra  not,  I  am  th«  kUest  of  nli    ~ 


J2053 


and  othersjjbr  deposing  Lord  PigoL 


A.  D.  1779. 


[1206 


reasonen,  and  deserve  your  reprehension.    If 
you  cannot  find  an  analogy,  between  the 
claims  of  fienfield  and  the  subsequent  con- 
duct of  these  defendants,  I  have  been  labour- 
ing idly  indeed,  and  to  little  purpose;  and 
must  beg  your  pardpn.    But  if  you  perceive, 
as  you  must,  throughout  the  whole  of  the 
business,  that  which  in  the  information  i« 
strictly  within  the  letter  of  the  charge,  what 
they  did  to  obstruct  mjr  lord  Pigot,  when  he 
was  proceeding  to  put  into  execution  the  or- 
ders pf  the  Company,  'was  done  in  the  in- 
stance I  mentioned ; — Mr.  Benfiield  asserting 
these. claims,  and  the  defendants  permitting 
them  to  tiake  place  in  ithe  prosecution  of  sbme 
scheme ; — in  making  it  a  point  to  send  some 
particular  person  to  Tanjore; — I  have  been 
talking  improperly  to  you,  when  I  say  that 
was  tkifi  whole  of  the  charge ;  the  charge  in 
the  information,  is  assault  and  imprisonment 
of  loid  Pigot,  qualified  with  these  observa- 
tions, that  It  was  done  to  obstruct  lord  Pigot 
in  doing  what  he  was  commissioned  to  exe- 
cute :  from  what  motives,  with  what  inten- 
tion, what  the  principles  were  operating  upon 
their  mtnds,  it  is  said  I  am  going  out  of' the 
charge,  when  I  am  stating  that.    Though 
cprruption  is  not  stated,  if  I  prove  a  criminal 
act  is  done,  and.  the  mind  in  doing  that  was 
acted  upon  by  corrupt  motives,  it  is  a  great 
aggravation.   And,  though  it  is  not  distinct!  v 
chareed  in  the  information,  the  motives  with 
i^^ich  the  actsof  violence,  charged  to  be  com- 
mitted by  the  defendants,  were  done,  is  a 
matter  for  your  consideration.  It  undoubtedly 
will  weigh  much,  both  in  judging  the  nature 
of  the  cnme,  and  the  defence,  and  the  nature 
of  the  punishment  to  be  inflicted  upon  them. 
I  thereiore  beg  you  to  bear  in  mind  the  object 
of  lord  Pieot' s  commission,  how  that  was  ob- 
structed, &st  by  the  nabob's  interposition  in- 
e|rectually,aAerwards  effectually  by  the  inter- 
poaition  of  Benfield,  of  whom  so  much  has 
peen  siud,  whom  the  defendants,   if  they 
thought  his  chiimd  proper,  did  not  think  pror 
per  to  call.    Benfieid  is  in  a  situation  that  he 
might  have  been  jMroduced ;  that  is  all  I  state ; 
ana  I  leave  it  to  you  to  judge,  and  to  dcaw  an 
jnforence  from  his  not  lieing  produced. 

.  Matters  have  been  gone  mto  in  this  cause, 
of  wliich  I  don't  now  go  into  the  detail,  of 
iaets,  and  this  narrative  which  was  stated  of 
questions  which  arose  in  the  month  of  May 
12  76,  and  from  that   time  downwards,  in 
which  debates  arose  upon  the  extent  of  the 
president's  authority.    Upon  that,  let  me  beg 
of  you  in  the  first  place  to  recollect,  with  re- 
gard to  the  fact,  it  is  said,   what  were  the 
authorities,  lord  Pigot  claimed  ?  It  is  said,  in 
one  instance,  he  claimed  a  power  of  pqttine 
a  pieviousques^on;  in  another,  he  oDJected 
to  any  other  person's  putting  a  previous  ques- 
tion. .  It  certainly  was  new,  as  lord  Pigot  said; 
ajudl  think  it  is  a  Uttle  incorrect,  to  state  lord 
Pigot  himself  had  given  an  example  of  it. 
JLord  Pigot  said,  at  the  meating  on  the  44th 
.of  )\me,  and  insiMed^  he  h§d  a  right  to  put 


his  question  before  Mr.  Mackav.  Mr.  Mackay 
insisted  he  had  a  right  to  put  his  question  be-<' 
fore  my  lord  Pigot,  in  consequence  of  an  ad- 
journment to  take  into  consideration  soma 
motions  he  had  to  make,  not  upon  a  specific 
(question  stated,  but  only  upon  an  intimation 
itt  the  minutes  by  Mr.  Mackay,  that  he  had  a 
question  to  put. 

Mr.  Dunning.  What  I  alluded  to,  was 
upon  Mr.  Mackay's  first  motion,,  after  the 
motion  was  made  upon  what  lord  Pigot  pro- 
poses, 

Att.  Gen,  We  are  exactly  upon  the  same 
point ;  mind  if  I  dan*t  state  it.  Lord  Pigot 
desired  he  might  put  his  question  first ;  Mr. 
Mackay  says,  no;  I  have  a  right  to  pUt  my 
question  first :  then  lord  Pigot  said,  tlie  only 
way  to  settle  this,  is  to  put  the  question,  whe- 
ther Mr.  Mackay*s  question  shall  be  put,  to 
determine  whether  Mr.  Mackay  or  lord  Pigot 
had  a  right  to  put  the  question. 

Mr.  JJunning,  Is  nut  that  in  the  most  ex- 
press term»  a  previous  question  ? 

Att,  Gen.  That  is  in  terms  a  previous 
question,  but  it  turns  upon  another  circum- 
stance. 

Court.  Nothing  turns  upon  that;  before 
they  had  done,  he  in  terms  refuses  to  put  tht 
question. 

Att.  Gen.  The  observation  merely  applies 
to  this. 

Court.    But  it  does  not  require  exactness. 

Att.  Gen.  I  don't  mean  to  state,  tliat  he 
would  not  put  a  previous  question  as  totally 
new  :  but  it  is  a  little  material  to  state  that  at 
the  time  he  objected  to  sir  II.  Fletcher's  pre- 
vious question,  not  an  instance  of  that  sort 
had  occurred  to  him.  Let  me  appeal  to  lord 
Pigot's  understanding  upon  the  subject ;  I  am 
certain  he  would  not  have  stated  a  thing  to 
be  new  in  a  settlement  where  he  had  don« 
the  th^ing  himself  before.  This  was  a  question 
upon  a  priority  between  two  questions;  on 
the  mode  of  stating  it,  it  was  upon  this  point, 
whether  Mr.  Mackay's  questibn  should  be  put 
before  the  president's,  so  it  was  understood  at 
the  time  by  the  gentlemen.  Lord  Pigot  how- 
ever, it  is  said,  objected  to  putting  a  previous 
question.  -  Now  I  really  cannot  conceive  this 
was  a  dangerous  or.  an  alarming  exercise  of 
power  upon  the  part  of  lord  Pigot;  as  a  ma« 
jority  could  not  nave  much  difficulty  to  en- 
counter a  previous  question,  lord  Pigot  did 
not  gain  much  by  asserting  it  was  a  novelty.; 
they  would  have  immediately  put  the  other 
question.  I  don't  conceive  that  the  assertion 
Upon  the  part  of  lord  Pigot,  that  a '  previous 
question  was  new  in  the  settlement,  and  that 
he  would  not  put  a  previous  question,  was 
such  an  innovation  ana  usurpation  upon  tlie 
part  of  him,  lord  Pigot,  as  merited  deprivation, 
imprisonment,  and .  death :  less  might  have 
done ;  a  less  degree  of  censure  was  required 
for  such  an  instance.  • 

Then  lord  Pigot  makes  other  assertions ;  he 
asserts,  too,  that  he  has  a  right  to  open  the 
business;  he  states  what  I  believe  to  be  uar 


IfOT]  19  GSOBGfi  nL 

^oestkmabljtnie.  lo  tfaecouneof  hiskm; 
expeneoce  m  lodi^  the  biwincM  was  always 
openad  b  v  the  pmideiit  There  was  no  io- 
ataoeey  I  htlieve,  in  lord  Pigsf  9  fbrmer  goverD- 
menty  nor  ever  any  where,  where  h  was  not 
fluch  a  fcene  ofoonfunon  whenever  the  coo- 
Itary  baii|i€iicd.  There  is  a  degree  of  respeet 
dtie  to  tne  president,  which  would  naturally 
make  every  member  of  the  Board  wait  till  lie 
Inings  on  the  business.  It  is  the  method,  I 
understand^  in  LeadenhaH-stceet  now,  that 
the  chairman  is  the  person  to  bring  all  the 
business  before  the  Court  of  Directors. 

Mr.  Dunning.  I  understand  it  is  otherwise. 

AtL  Gen,  I  say  it  is  a  matter  of  decorum ; 
I  don't  slate  it  as  a  matter  of  absolute  right; 
I  understand  it  to  be  a  matter  of  practice,  and 
1  understand  it  to  be  a  matter  of  decorum.  I 
luiow,  in  point  of  instance,  a  very  hostile 
eommittee  carried  it  to  such  a  pitch,  that 
they  forbore  to  have  questions  put,  when  cer* 
lain  of  them  were  present,  and  persuaded  the 
chair  to  move  questions  when  thcnf  were  not 
present;  the  business  proceeded,  bein^  sup^- 
posed  to  come  from  the  person  in  antbonty. 
Buty  whether  I  am  right  or  wrone  in  that,  I 
am  ready  to  give  up  the  point,  antiadmit  lord 
Pigot  wrong,  notwithstanding  it  having  been 
his  constant  practice  in  all  bis  time ;  I  still 
conclude  I  oon't  tbink  it  deserved  de^va- 
tion,  nor  the  imprisonment  in  which  lord 
PiffOtdied«  Less  censure  might  have  been 
mnicted  upon  him ;  it  does  not  strike  my 
Ideas,  that  it  would  amount  to  a  justification 
of  the  defendants  for  the  consequences  that 
followed.  The  ideas  of  the  powers  lord  Pigot 
had,  as  president,  I  apprehend  are  not  very 
disconformable  to  those  laid  down  by  Mr. 
Hastings,  laid  down  in  Bengitt:  only  Mr. 
Hastings  having  a  little  more  discretion,  and 
a  little  more  practice  in  the  forms  of  busi- 
ness, asserted  them  in  a  diilsrent  manner. 
Lord  Pigot  contended,  what?  not  that  he  had 
a  direct  right  to  controul  the  proceedings  of 
the  council;  lord  Pigot  did  not  assert  that  he^ 
as  president,  was  a  self-moving  integral  part ; 
that  he  could  act  without  the  authoqty  of  the 
council ;  he  never  asserted  that  he,  with  the 
minority  of  the  council,  because  the  president 
was  one  of  that  minority,  could  cariv  deUb^^ 
tions  into  execution  as  acts  of  council; — ^but  as^ 
sorted  this,  which  is  precisely  what  Mr.  Hast* 
ings  asserted,  be  could  stop  the  acts  of  the 
majority  by  going  away  and  leaving  the  room. 
Says  Mr.  Hastings,  I  leave  you  to  act  as  you 
please,  gentlemen ;  you  are  without  a  presi- 
dent, you  may  go  on  as  private  persons,  but 
you  tre  not  a  council  Lord  Pigot  tells  them 
not  in  so  advantageous  a  manner,  not  so  able 
a  method,  but  bringing  the  question  palpably 
before  their  eyes,  he  tells  them  not  how  he 
was  to  exercise  the  right,  but  that  he  under- 
stood he  had  a  right  to  do  it;  he  mi^t  have 
exercised  it  by  withdrawinjg  himself;  but  he 
says  an  act  of  the  majority  of  the  council, 
witliout  the  president,  is  not  an  act  of  coon* 
sii;  and  therafora  don't  predpitate  it;  sad 


he 

•ays  to 

involve 

which  I  ove 

will  not  have 

hend  the 

diy  without  mj 

«i  integral  sart  of  the 

be  an  act  ot  cot 

That 
not  asserted  iO' the 

dually  the  samedaam  as  Mr.  HaatiBg^  i 
in  the  case  of  the  act  of  partiamrnt  wftacii  ip- 
tervened;  my  lord  Pig)»l  |woiif iiFigiwi  wto 
he  understood  to  be  the  cmiHitmktB  of  the 
Company : — the  one  meant  to  eaavdlus 
by  tlue  act  of  withdrawing  and  Umb  p 
thevdJdnotcoiiBtitiileaeoimcH;lfaeodierL„  _ 
and  defined  the  oonstitatioii  to  the■^bntdii 
not  do  tfie  act  bjr  whkh  he  would  hawe  ahewi 
fats  power,  b^  wididrawing  himself; — tat  he 
pot-nimself  m  the  same  sort  of  predkaoMaat 
with  Hastings;  and  wfarther  he  withdrew  or 
stcttd,  he  asserted  he  had  in  hiBk  aoElin  power, 
which  was  the  same  thing  as  if  he  had  andp 
^  If  I  go  out  of  the  room  you  asc  m»  ctmaakf 
— it  would  be  trifina^  cimedingly  to  say  it 
was  not  ^le  same  daim;  or  to  sagrthat  ly 
the  oooduct  of  the  one,  he  has  a  power  bi^ 
cause  he  said,  I  can  turn  the  door  wpoo  ywi 
Was  it  not  fiul  as  snffieient  when  IsMi  Pigat 
says,  in  the  room,  *  Ontfamwi,  1  tail  wan 
hetie  in  the  room  yon  sie  no co«Mil>'te  irhs 
had  said  it,  when  he  had  got  out  of  the  4iom, 
in  the  fortress  Mr.  Haslinn  imrciiGhed  him* 
self?  But  having  said  it  andnol  havjugepeasj 
the  door,  it  seems,  has  occasioned  all  the  cqb» 
sequences  that  ensued,  and  it  as  aasd  he 
merited  all  the  coBclonoBs  dmwB,  sari  ail 
the  steps  that  were  Vtken  by  the 
in  this  cause.-^fiefoie  I  come  to  1 
eularW  what  those  eondosions  are,  muk  the 
actof  sitspendingthetwo  coondlloss^  1  mmA 
go  on  upon  the  oromnalanees  of  the  atieei;  I 
cannot  sufifer  thdii  to  pass  without  a  km  ob> 
servations  upon  them« — ^It  has  bsen  aaidy  %s 
the  ciromnstanoes  of  the  srrest  theve 
material  evidence.— It  is  admitted  be 
rested;  we  have  catted  a  postitioa; 
learned .  friend  treated  his  evide&ce  as 
ject  of  great  oontempt,  and  indu%od 
m  it  to  a  great  degree  (as  he  tbns|ght 
properly,  with  respect  to  this  csuss)  %e 
vour  to  take  off  mmi  your  miKnds  thai. 
mood,  in  wjhich  you  hiesr  such  a  cause 
by  turning  it  to  a  little  pkaaantry  ttpsai  the 
postilion  we  examined.  Bet  are  the 
stances  of  that  man's  evidence  tolslly 
terialf  can  I,  can  you  as  juiymeii,  ibigil 
the  business  of  colcmel  Stuwrt,  to  wlMMsa  si 
the  power  was  delegated,  touchiiig  the 
of  lord  Pigot  ^  Is  it  of  no  moment  what 
was  fixed  upon  for  his  arrest?  Can  you 
so  much  charity  as  to  conoeive,  when  so 
persons  were  made  to  attend  by  poaikrBc 
orders,  that  this  meesure  was  taken  without 
cosaumaicationieiidwitiioiiteiiy  ether  ptisurt 


JS09] 


mni  Mersijbr  depomn^^  Lard  PigoU 


A.  D,  1779. 


[1210^  , 


eoafidence,  or  knowM^  thst  he  would  have 
«aoh  orders  to  carry  loto  execution?  Is  it 
therefore  -so  Hidtfferent  a  circuroBtance,  to 
teke  notice  of  the  tioac  in  which  this  person 
was  sent  to  them  ?  and  is  it  quite  nothuig, 
that  Mr.  Benfield  kept  his  chaise  and  horses 
in  waiting)  for  this  purpose  ?  to  be  sure  it  was 
a  very  pleasant  matter,  to  sa^  it  was  an  easy 
l^st  chaise !  I  did  not  think  my  learned 
4riend  would  have  thought  it  right  to  have 
pushed  that  matter  quite  so  far,  when  speakine 
of  such  a  man  as  lord  Pigot.  We  are  obliged 
to  him  for  his  tenderness  and  humanity ;  lie 
6ays  it  was  no  hardship  to  be  carried,  provided 
It  was  an  easy  post  chaise,  to  a  comfortable 
flace  of  confinement;  that  such  imprison- 
laent  was  no  great  confinement,  if  he  had  his 
friends  about  him ;  and  though  there  was  an 
olicer  ^nardine  him,  in  view,  really  it  is  no- 
thing, if  tlie  humanity  of  the  officer  inter- 
poses, and  he  is  so  good  as  to  leave  a  parent 
to  discourse  with  his  cluldren,  without  inter- 
posing, and  hearing  it.  And  the  Mount  is 
^  very  pleasant  place,  and  (if  it  was  in  an 
easy  post-chaise)  a  journey  to  Chinglepot 
would  do  him  no  harm ;  upon  the  contrary 
it. would  be  very  pleasant,  especially  if  it 
was  taken  at  ni^t,  for  ttut  is  the  coolest 
time  at  that  time  of  the  year  to  travei 
an. — ^Tfais  is  ^le  kind  of  defence  set  up 
§fx  the  imprisonment  of  kmi  Pigot,  afler 
tisat  imprisonmeiM  has  tcrmtnaited  with  the 
death  of  k>rd  Pigot.  Gentlemei\,  it  would  be 
sporting  too  much  with  a  question  of  liberty, 
to  say  unprisonroent  is  nothing,  provided  a 
man  can  have  a  sood  dinner,  ana  be  in  the 
oompaay  of  his  mends,  and  have  ladies  to 
'vifflt  him ;  that  the  room  he  was  shut  up  in 
was  M  or  90  feet  kne.  I  have  a  better  opi- 
nion of  you,  than  %o  think  by  your  verdict  in 
this  case  ^ou  will  shew  countenance  to  the 
ciiciimscribing  any  EngMshman's  liberty, 
-«mch  more  lord  Pigot*s,  in  a  space  of  SO  feet. 
You  will  not  think  he  could  hold  himself  ex- 
tiemely  wril  off,  to  be  from  August  1776  to 
May  1777,  left  in  a  place  80  feet  by  90,  in 
pood  company,  with  only  an  officer  to  guard 
aim.  Thn  brings  me  to  another  circum- 
diAoe,  which  is  the  letter  written  upon  the 
fl5lh  to  major  Home.  Now  let  me  beg  of 
you  to  consider  it,  and  I  will  state  it  with  no 
exaggeration,  and  no,  degree  of  emphasis; 
you  will  consider  how*  tlie  circumstances,  of 
that  letter,  raise  nothing  but  common  sensa- 
'tions  *in  your  mind ;  notwithstandins  what 
TBj  learned  friend  said,  <  it  was  ootof  <&licacy 
%o  lord  Piget's  family,  that  the  time  of  his 
removal  was  chosen  to  be  at  mght.' 

Delicacy  to  lord  Pigot's  family!— Yes— 
TThey  were  to  know  it  in  the  morning. — It 
v^as  great  comfort,  no  doubt,  to  the  tender 
#eelinss  of  the  ladies  of  brd  Pigot's  family, 
that  Iney  were  not  to  be  shock^  with  the 
scene  of*  his  being  taken  away  in  the  day 
time ;  they  were  to  learn  the  next  morning 
lord  Pi^  was  removed,  in  the  dead  of  the 
jiijghty  u&def  the  care  of  cok&el  Eidtngtoun, 


to  a  place  they  knew  sot  where ;  nor  could 
they  know,  for  secrecy  was  enjoined,  and  the 
officers  were  not  permitted  to  tell  to  what 
place  they  were  to  carry  bira.    If  it  had  been 
the  case,  that  he  had  been  removed  then,  what 
pretence  would  have  been  made  to  quiet  the 
minds  of  lord  Pigot's  family  ?    You  see  the 
absurdity  of  it.    if;  by  an  attempt  to  take 
lord  Pigot,  any  disturbance  should  ensue  (that 
did  .in  mcX  ensue)  were  thdr  fears  to  be  less 
alarmed,  their  minds  less  agitated,  or  their 
feelings  less  roughly  handled  hy  that  circum- 
stance occurring  at  the  hour  of  rest,  when 
they  were  going  (as  Mr.  Moncktonseud)  peace- 
ably to  bed,  man  if  it  had  been  broaa  day- 
light and  the  circumstance  explained  ?    The 
circumstance  of  the  night,  there^e,  for  the 
removal  of  lord  Pigot. is  unaccounted  for,  b^ 
that  thin  and  empty  pretence  with  which  it 
has  been  attempted  to  cover  it.    It  xp  said, 
the  removal  of  nis  lordship  was  upon  an  ap-   ^ 
prehension  of  danger,  and  so  the  letter  states  ; 
let  me  bee  of  you  to  turn  in  your  considera- 
tion, whetner  the  pretence  of  the  lettor  was 
real?   it  certainly  was  i^t  reid; — ^whether  it 
was  imaginary  or  not  ? — upon  the  contrary,  it 
was  totally  affected.    I  say  it  was  totally 
atifected,  for  they  could  not  imagine  it  to 
themselves,  from  this  very  plain  zaA  obvious 
cirouttistance.     The  letler  is  written  upon 
the  I2jrth,  the  danger  tliat  it  mentions,  is  a 
danger  supposed  to   arise  from   what  Mr. 
Claud  Russei  had  done  upon  the  S3d.-— Y.oii 
will  attend  to  that  circumstanc^  Mr.  Claud 
Russei  was  before  them  upon  the  t4th  in 
the  morning;  and  was  examined  upon  the 
S4th.    Upon  the  84th  they  sent  an  order 
to  major  Home,  not  implying  any  alarm; 
on  the  «6th,  they  write,  *  people  are  alarmed  by 
an  aocouni  of  Mr.  Russei  having  made  a  dis- 
tm^ance;'   thfe  alarm  is  instantaneous  and 
takes  place  immediately,  the  precautions  to 
be  used  upon  H  are  instantaneous.     They 
write  upon  the  24th,  a  letter  to  major  Home,  in. 
whkh  no  mention  is  made  of  any  alarm,  no 
notice  taken  of  what  happened  in  regard  ta 
Mr.  Russei;  and  it  is  only  a  common  warrant 
to  keep  lord  Pigot  in  his  custody,  he  having 
been  delivered  to  him  by  Mr.  Stuart.    The 
alarni  therefore  was  not  conceived  on  the 
24th ;  it  could  not  rise  in  regard  to  Mr.  Rus- 
sei, therefore  I  argue,  and  trust  vou  will  thihk 
justly,  it  was  only  a  pretext  taken  up  afler^ 
wards,  at  a  time  when  all  was  quiet,  and  when 
they  were  satisfied  in  their  own  mind.    Ac- 
cording to  Mr.  Monckton's  evidence  there  was 
not  the  least  intention  upon  the  part  of  lord 
Pigot  to  raise  any  disturbance,  and  there  was 
a  recommendation  given  by  terd  Pigot,  before 
that  time,  for  his  friends  not  to  mal£  the  least 
disturbance  or  r|dse  the  least  commotion.    I 
did  congratulate  myself  that  colonel  Stuart's  " 
name  was  not  to  it;  but. my  learned  friend 
says,  there  is  no  doubt  ^  passage  in  it  was  put 
in   upon  the  instigation  of  colonel  Stuart. 
TThtere  is  no  proof  of  that,  and  I  am  convinced 
it  is  not  so ;  my  lesbroed  friend's  infbnnatioft  it 


>, 


^ 


19  GEORGE  III.     .      Proeeedif^i  agaiaU  George  SirmUon         [1212 


0.  I  vill  demoofttratc  the  inip9Si>ibility 
In  the  first  place,  there  is  not  a  pa.v&age 

cptild  have  supped  in  by  the  sugsestion 
uf  any  body:  It  is  very  obvious  the  whole  of 
the  letter  was  written  for  no  other  purpose 
than  to  convey  an  insinuation,  to  give  them  a 
pretext  for  the  orders  they  were  sending,  and 
to  carrv  that  particular  postscript.  The  prior 
part  o(  it  is  tliis,  '  Mr.  Claud  Russel  having 

*  that  night  made  attempts  to  get  the  main 
^  guard  under  arms,  and  as  he  and  his  asso- 
'  ciates  may  endeavour  to  send  letters  to  the 

*  out  garrisons,  we  re(^uest  you  would  endea- 
'vour  to  prevent  their  conveying  papers  to 

*  lord  Pi^oVs  hands,  to  be  signed  by  nira,  or 
'  their  holding  correspondence  with  him  whilst 

*  he  is  under  your  cnarge,  unless  in  vour  pre- 
'  sence.'  That  is  the  prior  part  of  the  letter ; 
'  as  your  labt  resource  in  any  attempt  to  rescue 

*  lord  Pigot,  his  liie  must  answer  for  it,  and 
^  this  you  are  to  signify  to  him/  The  post- 
scnpt  IS  this,  *  The  nabob  has  been  applied  to 
'  for  a  party  of  horse  to  be  put  under  your 
'  command,  and  they  are  for  the  purpose  of 
'  conveying  quick  intelligence  to  us,  and  for 
'•  such  other  purposes  as  you  shall  think 
^  necessary :  we  trust  to  your  making  such  a 

*  disposition  of  the  force  under  your  command 
^  as  to  prevent  the  possibilify  of  a  surprize,  or 
'  the  success  of  any  attempt  that  may  be 

*  made  by  lord  Pigot  and  his  associates/ — ^And 
that  is  the  whole  of  the  letter.  I  say,  they 
could  have  written  this  to  major  Home,  for  no 
other  purpose  but  what  was  meant  to  be  con-* 
veyedby  the  latter  part  of  the  letter,  and  the 
postscript.  Upon  the  S4th  major  Home  had  an 
express  letter  from  colonel  Stuart,  containing, 
iotidem  verbis,  the  very  orders  conveyed  in  that 
letter  of  the  S5th,  which  was^  not  permitting 
any  person  to  correspond  with  lord  Pigot; 
the  letter  was  to  be  stopped,  and  the  person 
dismissed  with  whom  such  conversation  was 
held;  and  lord  Pigot  was  to  see  no  person 
without  t^e  presence  of  an  officer :  these  are, 
totidem  verhii,  to  ,the  same  effect,  distinctly 
conveyed  to  him  in  the  letter  of  the  24th, 
which  is  the  letter  from  colonel  Stuart.  Now 
no  person  could  have  suggested  the  paragraph, 
as  necessary  to  be  put  in  that  letter  of  the 
25th,  which  is  a  demonstration  it  could  not 
be  written  for  any  other  purpose  but  the  ex- 
pression at  the  close  of  tne  letter,  and  what- 
ever was  meant  to  be  conveyed  by  the  post- 
script of  that  letter. 

Gentlemen;  It  is  said  upon  what  I  in- 
sinuated to  you  upon  this,  it  would  have  been 
a  strange  and  an  uncommon  device.  I  could 
refer  my  learned  friend  to  an  incident  of  no 
very  remote  historical  date,  in  which  just  such 
a  device  was  carried  into  execution,  and  the 
person  suffered  death  in  consequence  of  a 
supposed  scufHe,  a  supposed  intended  rescue. 
Something  like  a  scuffle  was  apps^-ently  made, 
and  in  the  resistance  of  that  supposed  scuffle, 
the  person  died.  I  dare  say  he  knows  the  in- 
stance I  allude  to.  The  idea  is  not  quite  new 
to  him.    It  is  not  entirely  of  eastern  growth^ 


though  in  soaie  degree  portkipatiDg  of  A&iatoc 
manners;    but  it  did  not  actually  take  place 
in  that  manner,  from  contriving  a  scuffle  as 
accidentally,  when  particular  orders  were  g^vea 
to  the  officer  of  the  fort  who  had  the  prisoner 
in  custody;  and  in  taking  care  of  the  pri- 
soner, eveiy  thing  happened  that  might  in  the 
imagination  of  a  person  have  happened  here. 
It  is  said  it  was  repugnant  to  their  interest; 
to  their  tme  interest  undoubtedly  it  was,  but 
so  I  trust  it  will  be  found  a  great  many  parts 
of  their  conduct  were  equ^y  repugnant  to 
their  true  interests.   To  judge  what  you  think 
agreeable  to  their  interests,  you   must  put 
yourself,  not  in  the  si  I  nation  in  which  the 
parties  stand  now,  but  the  ^tuation  in  which 
the  parties  stood  at  the  time.   Now  what  was 
the  situation  the  parties  stood  in  at  the  tinoe  ? 
A  power  suddenly  usurped,  I  say  an  ill^al 
power,  and  usurped  by  the  grossest  of  all  im- 
positions, not  certain  by  b^w  long  a  tenure 
that  power  would  be  held,  I  am  airaid  I  cannot 
say,  for  the  honour  of  human  nature :  (it  b 
nut  so  common  an  idea  that  the  persons  of 
rulers  and  their  deputies  ever  honour  one 
another  as  they  ought  io  do;,  but  was  it  vety 
repugnant  to  their  mterests,  and  so  conceived 
at  the  time  when  it  appears  they  had  the 
idea  of.a  possible  homicide  being  siieltered  by 
law  ?    that  was  the  idea  floating  upon  their 
minds.    My  learned  friend  sadd  it  was  against 
their  interest;  and  he  should  have  had  no 
such  ideas  of  homicide  in  his  mind.    It  never 
would  I  believe  enter  into  a  heart  so  pure;,  so 
benevolent,  and  honourable  as  his,  to  enter 
into  such  a  party ;  it  was  all  their  own  ideas, 
and  no  paf  t  of  his :  I  am  sure  you  canoot 
hesitate  a  moment.     Afler  findinjg  it  was 
their  own  ideas,  they  consider  tl^e  kiiline  of 
lord  Pigot  might  have  been  an  act  slieltcrea  by 
law,  that  was  the  circumstance  alluded  to  in 
the  letter;  it  was  wrote  without  passion,  at  a 
time  when  Uiey  were  cool,  it  was  the  act  of 
deliberation.    Gentlemen,  I  am  only  desiring 
you  to  consider  the  thinness  of  the  pretence ; 
consider  the  time  of  executing  the  orders; 
upon  the  least  alarm,  the  orders  were  to  be 
put  into  execution.  .  That  was  the  reason  of 
writing  ,the  letter  to  maior  Horne,  and  {kuUing 
in  the  postscript  to  that  letter,  at  the  beg^ming 
of  which  they  mention  the  circumstance  of  a 
thin^  being  likely  to  liappeii,  which,  in  fact, 
had  liappened  a  day  or  two.  before,  and  of 
which  they  knew  the  effect.   Considering  all 
this,  you  will  iudge  for  yourselves,  and  see 
whether  you  think  it  an  uncharitable  con* 
elusion  that  I  make.    If  at  that  time  a  scuffle 
had  ensued,  and  in  consequence  of  that  scuffle 
the  best  blood  in  India  had  .been  spilled^  what 
sort  of  defence  could  have  been  made  ior  it  ? 
Then  I  was  reproached  with  havii^  stated  a 
circumstance  pathetically,  which  I  will  restate 
and  state  it  very  dxyly  and  coldly  to  you; 
lord  Pigot  was,  under  confinement,  guarded  in. 
the  way,  and  with  the  mitigations  you  have 
heard;    but   he  was   under  a  oonfineroent 
which  imdoubtedly  preyed  upon  his  miocis 


N, 


I21S] 


end  others fjbr  depodng  Lord  Pigoi. 


A*  D-  1119. 


down  to  t^e  34th  of  Apnl  1776,  when  he  had 
a  moment's  release ;  but  the  suard  was  put 
on  again  in  the  course  of  his  illness,  and  he 
died  the  prisoner  of  Stratton.  Major  Home 
was  Stratton's  officer,  not  to  Stratton  was  the 
application  made,  but  the  family  applied  to 
major  Home  for  the  body  of  lord  Pigot ;  I  have 
stated  the  circumstance,  and  I  leave  it  to  your 
feelings  as  men,  without  any  comment  upon  it. 
I  have  troubled  vou  with  all  I  intended  to 
state  by  way  of  observation  upon  the  facts. 
It  is  stated  to  you,  and  a  case  was  stated  to 
i)e  put  by  a  great  authority ;  that  the  great 
object  of  enquiry,  upon  all  such  trials  as  these, 
is  the  heart  of  the  party.  Upon  what  occasion 
it  was  said,  is  not  within  the  compass  of  my 
knowledge;  I  am  sure  whenever  it  was  saidf, 
it  was  said  with  perfect  propriety,  and  the 
applicatioh  perfectly  just ;  but  upon  the  pre- 
sent occasion,  the  application  fsdls  exceedingly. 
The  motives  of  men's  minds,  excepting  very 
few  cases,  cannot  be  traced  by  evidence;  the 
heart  of  man  is  only  known  to  the  great 
Searcher  of  all  hearts ;  the  hearts  of  men  are 
not  the  subjects  4)f  human  tribunals,  unless 
their  actions  are  oppressive:  if  they  have 
acted  injuriously  to  tnat  community  of  which 
they  are  memb^s,  they  must  be  answerable 
for  it ;  but  if  in  the  government  of  that  com- 
munity any  persons  act  oppressively  and  inju- 
riously to  individuals,  it  is  in  vain  to  defend 
them  upon  a  supposed  goodness  of  heart,  and 
to  alledge  pureness  of  motive ;  such  enquiries 
would  baffle  all  efforts  of  human  justice.  Men 
must  be  accountable  for  their  actions ;  and 
they  cannot  avail  themselves  of  an  appe^  to 
the  testimony  of  their  own  hearts,  which  no 
man  can  know,  and  which  cannot  be  brought 
out  in  any  degree  of  evidence.  An  attach- 
ment to  Mr.  Stuart  was  thrown  out^  and  it 
is  admitted  that  might  be  the  motive.  If  that 
wa^  the  motive,  it  was  a  miserable  one  indeed, 
to  involve  t{ie  settlement  in  so  much  confu- 
sion, which,  but  for  that  one  attachment, 
might  have  rested  in  peace  to  this  hour.  But 
I  leave  you  to  consider,  whether  the  attach- 
ment to  Benfield  misht  not  be.  the  more 
cogent,  and  the  attachment  to  Stuart  a  very 
secondary  consideration.  It  is  said  they  dis- 
claimed acting  upon  private  motives,  and  they 
defend  themselves  upon  public  motives ;  but 
what  their  defence  realiy  is,  to  this  hour,  I 
confess  myself  at  a  loss  to  understand.  My 
ieamed  fnend,  possessed  of  the  great  dis- 
tinguishing talents  he  is,  has  not  in  any  part 
of  what  he  has  laid  before  you,  unquestionably 
very  ably  and  ingeniously, — he  has  not  in 
any  part  of  it  (unless  I  have  much  misappre- 
henaed  it)  stated  any  distinct  clear  proposition, 
by  which  he  proves  the  act  they  have  done  is 
to  be  justified.  I  will  eo  through  it  with  what  I 
apprehend  to  be  the  things  alluded  to  by  him, 
as  makingj  up  what  entitles  them  to  a  justifica- 
tion, upon  which  he  hopes  your  verdict  will 
acquit  the  defendants  of  the  crimes  charged 
in  the  information.  In  the  first  place  it  was 
pressed,  and  I  tiiink  wisely,  .to  be  a  violent 


[1214 

and  illegal  act  of  lord  Pigot  to  have  upon  the 
32Dd  suspended,  in  the  manner  he  did,  Mr. 
Stratton  and  Mr.  Brooke.  I  am  perfectly 
ready  to  admit  that  it  was  a  violent  and  illegal 
act,  upon  the  part  of  lord  Pigot,  to  have  sus- 
pended Mr.  Stratton  and  Mr,  Brooke ;  let  us 
see  a  little  what  are  the  consequences  of  the 
admission  I  so  readily  made.  Is  the  const!- 
ttition  dissolved  by  it  ?  Consider  what  con- 
stitution we  are  talking  of:  it  is  a  delegated 
authority,  in  which  all  the  parties  are  subject 
to  controul ;  in  which  all  are  subject  to  supe- 
riors; in  which  if  mischief  happens  it  can  be 
but  a  temporary  mischief.  I  have  said  before 
there  was  no  occasion  to  dread  violence  from 
lord  Pigot's  temper.  We  have  the  best  evi- 
dence of  it;  Mr.  Monckton  said,  with  dl  the 
injuries  fresh  in  his  mind,  lord  Piffot  conceals 
the  just  motives  of  his  warmth,  and  was 
abundantly  acquiescent  to  keep  the  peace  of 
the  settlement,  desiring  his  friends  to  make  no 
disturbance,  and  to  prevent  the  least  commo- , 
tion;  he  was  not  a  man  likely  to  {Proceed 
to  any  extremity  of  personal  violence.  It  is 
said,  his  council  were  suspended  illegally ;  I 
have  known  instances  happening  before  at 
Madras ;  an^  officer  or  a  council  have  been 
suspended  illegally,  and  suih  council  have 
been  restored  onapplication  at  home  by  Max^ 
damns :  does  that  make  a  dissolution  of  the 
govemment  because  one  or  two  are  sus- 
pended? It  is  said,  if  one  or  two  are  sus« 
pended,  all  may  be  illegally  suspendc^d.  I 
cannot  argue* upon  those  circumstances;  they 
have  not  waited  for  that  extreme,  but  if  an  , 
extreme  case  would  justify  people  acting  imder 
a  delegated  authority,  they  are  not  to  appeal 
to  God  Almiehty ;  they  are  amenable  to  ano- 
ther court,  i Ahtey  do  wrong ;  and  that  wrong 
may  be  rectified,  if  they  wait  for  a  message 
going  to  Europe  and  returning.  In  the  pre- 
sent case  that  did  not  happen,  till  lord  Pigot 
had  made  a  proposal,  which  I  state  agam^ 
left  them  without  all  excuse  not  to  adopt  as  a 
temporary  mode,  the  conciliation  that  would 
have  prevented  all  the  dissention  and  mischief 
that  followed.  But  lord  Pigot's  proposal 
amounted  to  notliing,  it  is  said,  for  it  he  did 
refer  the  matter  to  the  directors  at  home,  in 
the  mean  time  he  would  remain  in  the  pos- 
session of  the  rights  he  claimed.  I  take  the 
language  to  be  plain,  *  don't  send  Mr.  Stuart 
to  Tanjore ;  if  you  do,  let  me  send  Mr.  Riis- 
sel  too.'  Let  that  be  put  out  of  consideration, 
and  all  the  rest,  let  it  rest  here ;  he  having 
repeatedly,  again  and  again,  declared  that  was 
the  thing  he  would  do  in  the  extremity  of  the 
case :  as  to  controuling  theni  by  withdrawing 
himself  from  the  majority,  by  making  them  a 
council  without  a  president,  he  does  not  take 
that  step ;  but  in  the  extreme'  case  of  neces- 
sity desires  all  his  powers  may  be  referred  to 
the  directors;  and  it  was  too  uncandid  of  them, 
not  to  say  worse  of  it,  for  them  not  to  accede 
to  it.  U  those  proposals  had  been  acceded 
to,  none  of  those  questions  would  have  been 
agitated  again,  lord  Pigot  would  have  called 


N 


t         19  GEORGE  m.    .      ProceetOnff  apuMtt  George  SirMan         [1216 

/distant  ccmiiciUor& — ^Xo,  that  was  not 
they  wibhed.    I  am  wiiliog  to  admit 

Pieot  acted  illegally  in  suspending. 

those  counculors;  that  was  not  a  thmg  thai 
approached  towards  a  conciliation;  upon 
which  it  mav  be  said  kxd  Pigot  did  not  make 
all  the  possible  advances  he  could ;  it  was  im* 
poMible  for  him  to  make  more  than  he  did. 
And  I  have  heard  it  advanced,  and  yet  I  don't 
believe  I  shall  hear  it  advanced  as  a  pcinciple 
of  government,  that  for  an  illegal  act  of  the 
president,  without  due  form,  contrary  to  the 
opinion  of  some  members  of  the 'Council,  that 
it  wBoaats  those  council  to  dis6(dv«  the  go* 
vemBoent  and  imprison  the  president;— It  is 
said  (and  I  beg  it  may  not  be  underwood  as 
iqupirted  to  my  learned  friend), — it  is  thrown 
out  in  that  letter  from  Bengal ;  a  groat  deal  of 
notice  is  taken  about  their  beuig  a  majori^; 
and  throughout  in  every  passage  of  it^— You 
being  a  majority,  and  whde  you  the  niaprity 
do  so  and  84y— which  seems  ta  infer  the»r  be- 
ing a  m^oniy,  was  a  defence  for  what  they 
have.  done.  If  it  was  so  in  the  opinion  of  any 
body  that  signed  that  letter,  it  was  an  opinion 
founded  upon  gpaoss  ignorance,  and  palpably 
misunderstanding  the  tenns^  theee  was  no 
such  thing  as  msolute  nuyority.  Majority 
supposes  a  nunorit^,  they  are  oppMient  parts 
of  the  same  council;  but  these  who  because 
they,  are  a  majority  exclude  from  their  coun- 
cil the  rest  of  that  council  who  were  of 
the  minority,  they  2UPe  individui^ls,  oonspiia- 
tors,  ruffians, — not  a  council, — not  a  m%io- 
xitv,— to  say  they  were  a  nuyorUy  is  lidi* 
culous,  and  a  perversion  of  laittuage,  a  play 
upon  words, — ^te  pretend  to  quality  themselves 
with  the  phrase  of  majonty^ — ^While  they 
continue  to  act  in  council^  under  the  autho- 
rity of  the  president,  they  are  a  majority  and 
minority  of  men  deliberating  and  discussing 
and  votmg;  but  those  who  call  themselves 
a  majority  taking  upon  them  to  act  by  them- 
selves, to  imprison  theur  leader,  to^  imprison 
the  president  who  was  the  head  of  that  go- 
vernment, and  tetaispend  tiie  rest^  to  msdte 
themselveslnasters  of  that  ^ovemmentyare  do- 
ing unlawfully,  and  unqualified  under  the  title 
of  majority  or  anv  thing  else : — ^And  the  coun- 
cil at  Bengal  talk  strange  nonsense  when,  in 
every  paragraph,  they  set  up  a  majority.  I 
beg  their  pudons,  they  only  talk  ignorantly ; 
they  state  in  their  letter,  tiiey  are  not  informed 
of  Uie  train  offacU  which  led  to  that  conclu- 
sion ;  neither  were  they  insensible  they  were 
not  informed  of  the  series  of  aett  that  led  to 
those  effects.  And  they  don-t  appear  by  that 
letter  to  know,  that  the  power  had>  been, 
usurped,  and  all  the  consoauences  that  fol- 
lowed. But  then  the  lUegGuitjr  that  followed 
in  suspending  the  two  councillors;  the  ne- 
cessity of  the  state  requiring  .to  overturn  the 
government;  to  impeach  the  councillors;  and 
God  knows  what  acts  there  were  done  upon 
that  ground ;  they  mention  all  that,  but  who 
tells  them  so  ?  It  is  Mr.  Stratton — what W& 
thoiiist  act  which  others  znentbn^  that  lord 


Pigot  by  his  autiierity  a]«ie  had  suspended 
Mr.  Stiatton  and  Mr.  Brooke.  I  say  that 
was  illegal,  but  war  it  not  equally  illc^al^ 
upon  {he  part  of  these  gentlemen,  to  saspeod 
Mr.  Russel  and  Mr.  Dalrymple  r  thev  had 
called  upon  Mr.  Russel,  and  aoked  if  he  ac- 
knowleoeed  tiieir  authority — ^he  did  not.  Mr. 
Dalrymple  was  net  called  upon,  he  tbnug^t 
it  hard  he  was  not  sommonea ;  there  was  as 
illegal  suspension  of  Mr.  Dalrymple,  wfaidi 
is  gross  and  palpable  upon  eveiy  idea.  The 
next  day  thejr  suspended  Mr.  Latham,  I 
mentioned  Mr.  Lathom  as  a  person  newly  ar* 
rived  from  Caddalore;  he  ought  to  have  been 
called  to  the  council ;  there  was  no  1^^ 
council  without  him.  Mr.  Stratton's  council 
was  no  legal  coundl,  without  Mr.  Lathom^ 
a  council  consists  of  the  members  present 
upon  the  spot,  ready  to  attend  vdien  sum* . 
moned  to  attend,  when  necessary  to  the  con- 
stitution of  the  body;  but  Mrylatho^  was 
present  in  Madia8„l^  had  done  noact^  he  bad 
given  no  vole,  he  had  neither  been  of  one 
party  nor  the  other,  yet  he  was  not  sum* 
moned. — They  ss^  lord  Pigot  did  not  act  le-> 
sally !  Dare  they  talk  to  me  of  the  illegality  of 
tord  Pigot,  or  to  state  themselves  acting  le> 
gaily,  a^  under  the  colour  of  law,  when  thcj 
are  meetina  privately,  not  summoning  the 
member  of  the  council  untainted  by-^ths 
former  measures^  and  two  days  after 
pending  by  their  own  authority  that 
ber  of  the  council  uncalled,  unheard^ 
unexamined,  in  his  absence?  That  is  the 
wicked  illegality  that  accompanies  all  usurps 
tions;  and  oy  the  same  arts  that  the  power 
is  got,  those  grossly  ille^  usurpatimeof  a 
government  are  maintained,  in  the  same 
manner  this  has  beoi  maintained  by  their 
own  illegal  measures,  and  then  thc^  falave  the 
daring  confidence  in  a  court  of  justice^ — I  will 
not  say  to  urge  it  as  a  defence,  but  to  throw 
out  something  like  a  defence, — ^to  get  an  idea 
to  be  nursed  and  broueht  up  to  be  something 
that  is  stated  to  be  a  defence  in  point  of  law. 
I  dare  say  you  will  treat  that  in  the  stiJe  it 
deserves,  and  then  I  shall  hear  nothini;  like  a 
defence,  in  the  way  of  a  justifioation  for  such 
gross-ilkgalities^  and  we  shall  hear  no  more  of 
such  acts ;  and  this  contagion,  which  aroae  in 
Asia,  will  not  be  carried  into  foture  examples 
overturning  the  bonds  of  society,  and  tuniii^ 
all  into*  chaos  by  bloodshed  and  every  conse* 
quence  tliat  can  attend  upon  such  proeeed* 
ings.  It  is  said  there  was  a  collateral  neces* 
sity  for  colonel  Stuart's  going  to  Tanjorc,  was 
that  an  olyect  to  overturn  the  whole  ^vem- 
ment  ?  was  it  too  much  to  comply  with  kid 
Pigpt's  request?  Had  they  resisted  such  a  no- 
position  as  I  have  now  stated  to  yoo,  tiad 
they  been  intrusted  with  what^  operates  upon 
common  minds,  and  had  a  proper  respect  fat 
authority,  a  proper  regard  for  the  pufaUc,  moie 
moderation  of  temper,  or  anv  thing  fit  to 
possess  the  minds  of  men  with  a  proper  de- 
gree of  respect  for  those  to  whom  the  power 
was  delegated,  they  could  001  have  re&im  l» 


i»iri 


and  otherSffor 


LordP^at. 


A.  D.  nn. 


nm 


wrecoibplied  with  the  rqieated  proposals  of 
lord  Pigot  to  refer  to  the  directors,  and  to 
itop  allthese  proceedings,  and  say  no  more 
y£  Hy  that  he  would  adopt  a  middle  measure, 
that  midcile  measure  they  thought  would  cause 
ielay,  and  instead  of  that  they  hurry  on  and 
fcake  advcmtage  of  th^  act  lord  Pieot  had 
dune^  in  suspendingtwo  of  the  council,  which 
act  they  sanctioned  by  their  own  example. 
rhey  proceed/--4o  what?   Imprisonment  of 
his  person:   will  they  justify  that?  What  I 
adfited  m  the  opening,  I  will  repeat  again ;  I 
ooBCMve  nothing  but  that  physical  necessity 
that  would  have  justified  the  putting  a  pistol 
to^  lord  Pigot's  head,  upon  tne  moment  he 
had  done  it,  could  justity  the  imprisonment. 
There.was  no  man  who  had  aright,  while  the 
government  stood,  to  put  him  under  anv  con- 
Snement's   no  custody  could  be  legal :    no 
officer  could  be  .warranted  to  hold  the  eo- 
▼emor  ii> -prison.    Nothing  can  justify  that 
HBpiiaomnent ;   nothing  can  prevent  us  from 
recetviDg  ftill  satisfaction  by  your  verdict; 
these  can  be  no  aUerapt  to  palliate  it ;  but 
auch  ft'  defence  as  that  tor  every  one  of  the 
.persoBs  nutting  a  pistol  against  lord  PieoVs 
.nesol^  ana  saying,  now  tiierb  is  a  physical  ne- 
cessity for  it^  you  destroy  me,  or  I  you.    This 
is  nothing  like  that  case ;  and  nothing  but 
a  case  like  that,  can  afford  any  defence  for 
these  defendants.    Having  said  so  much,  1 
will  not  trouble  you  upon  the  circumstance  of 
those  opinions  sent  from  Bengal,  which  are 
very  imperfect;  and  without  proper  authority 
they  had  no  right  to  give  an  opmion,  direc* 
tion  or  controul  upon  the  business.    It  was 
said  to  be  the  opinion  of  four  men  who  never 
agreed  upon  one  point  before ;   that  only 
proves,  tiiey  are  all,  by  the  express 'orders  of 
the  Company,  to  sign  letters,  if  letters  are 
sent.    It  shews  it  is  the  opinion  of  the  ma^ 
jor^'of  four — if  the  letter  proves  that,  it 
proves  nothing  more* .  I  had  proofs  sufficient, 
if  I  had  been  prepared  for  it ;  there  was  one 
centleman,  Mr.  Francis,  who  it  is  said  signed  it, 
declared  it  was  not  consistent  with  his  opinion 
at  that  time;  and  how  it  jcame  to  be  the  opi- 
jdoD  of  the  others  we  could  give  good  evidence ; 
but,  be  that  what  it  may,  it  is  a  loose  uncer- 
tttn  vague  opinion,  and  not  strictly  justice  with 
respect  to  what  was  done.    I  will  tell  you  to 
what  it  is. in  that  respect,  I.appiy  the  deter- 
mination upon  their  part ;  it  was  to  prevent  a 
suspension  of  the  existing  government;  in 
that  they  were  right,  sir  £dward  Hughes  was 
right;  all  are  justified  in  my  opinion;   th^ 
thought  it  better  a  bad  government,  though 
usurped  and  illegal,  by  Stratton  and  his  coun- 
cil, should  he  held,  than  that  there  should  be 
acoufiision  like  that  in  Bengal.    I  state  that 
which  I  think  has  great  weight  in  it :  it  was 
the  opinion  of  lord  Pigot ;   for  he,  by  Mr. 
MdncKtan's  testimony,  bore  his  imprisonment 
with  patience,  waiting  for  deliverance  from 
bis  superiors  in  England,  giving  it  in  recom- 
meodation  to  every  friend  ne  had  not  to  stir,, 
not  to  make  tiie  least  coorniotkOy- or  excite 
VOLXW. 


the  least  disturbance  in  the  settlement,  antf 
that  he  expressed  at  the  time ;  I  dare  say, ' 
therefore, . that  was  lord  Pigot's  opinion;  I 
dare  say  he  never  had  two  opinions  upon  a 
thing  of  that  kind :  according  to  Mr.  Monck* 
ton's  account,  lord  Pigot's  opinion  of  ther 
soldiers  was  such,  that  their  reverence  for 
him  was  such,  that  his  party  would  be  consi- 
derable, if  he  risked  attempting  by  force  to 
regain  the  situation  he  had  lost  bv  force,  and 
not  by  force  only,  but  force  and  fraud,  and 
every  thing^^that  could  make  that  force  and 
fraud  not  only  odious,  as  it  is  in  its  own  na- 
ture, but  scandalous,  base,  and  detestable. 

GonUemen,  I  will  trouble  you  no  farther  in 
this  case,  but  rest  in  full  confidence  your  ver* 
diet  will  be  an  example  to  people  in  India, 
who  are  under  the  protection  of^  this  govern- 
ment ;  and  we  shall  haf  e  peaceable  and  quiet 
settlements,  and.  no  revolutions  attempted 
in  the  government  of  that  country.    ^ 

I«t  me  add  another  word,  upon  the  opinion 
of  the  people  of  iiengal ;  to  shew  of  what  litUe 
consequence  that  is,  they  had  this  kind  of 
dissention  arose  twice  in  Beng^;-  once,  Mr. 
Hastinsa  attempting  to  put  an  end  to  the 
council  by  withdrawing  himself,  the  others 
insisted  upon  goine  on  without  him,  but  on 
both  sides  they  had  at  last  the  moderation  to 
state  their  case  and'send  it  to  England ;  they 
took  no  violent  measures.  In  consequence  of 
that  it  went  no  farther.  Upon  a  second  oc- 
casion, tlie  same  incident  happened ;  upoh 
a  confusion  that  arose,  notwithstanding  oraers 
had  been  s^nt  out  from  here,  it  was  uiought 
Mr.  Hastincs  had  ceased  to  be  governor,  and 
Mr.  Barwell  a  councillor;  and  general  Claveiw 
in^  and  Mr.  Francis  had  posseued  themselves 
or  the  government;  Mr.  Hayings  and  Mr. 
Barwell  had  gone  Uie  length  to  suspend  the 
others;  and  the  other  two  had  suspended 
them  ;  but  that  confusion,  like  the  other,  by 
the  sense  and  moderation  of  the  parties,  was 
referred  home  to  the  directors  and  produced 
no  civil  broils :  those  two  are  great  examples 
-that  such  disputes  may  happen,  without 
going  to  extremities,  yet  the  constitution  and 
the  government  may  exist  and  no  evil  or  con- 
fusion follow.  I  trust,  gentlemen,  your  ver- 
dict will  be  an  example  to  all  that  part  of  the 
world ;  and  that  very  extensive  part  of  man- 
kind will  be  convinced,  that  such  crimes  can« 
not  be  committed  with  impunity. 

Court,  There  is  one  thing  great  stress  has 
been  laid  upon,  I  cannot  see  how  it  is  before 
the  jury  upon  this  indictment)  that  is,  the 
intention  t^  have  made  away  with  lord  Pigot, 
after  he  was  in  custody.  In  what  light  (toes 
that  cotat  into  that  information  F  I  was 
thinking  upon  it,  whatever  becomes  of  the 
rest  of  the  cause,  the  jury  should  convict 
or  acquit  of  it.  Is  that  by  aggravation  or  how  ? 
You  nave  no  charge  that  he  was  imprisoned, 
with  intent  to  make  awa^  with  him. 

Att.  Gen,  I  conteind  it  is  inferred  in  the 
infocmation. 

Court.  How  is  it  applied?  It  is  not  at  dll 
4  I 


1219] 


19  6EOR6B  IIL 


before  the  court  The  jury  have  notfaiiig  to 
do  with  It.    It  19  not  in  B^gravatioD. 

Jtt.  Gen,  I  conceive  it  is,  my  lord. 

Comrt,  How  ao?  In  an  action  for  damagies 
it  might  be. 

Att.  Gen.  In  statins  the  case  of  an  assanR 
a|id  imprisonment,  if  I  state  the  asaauH 
and  imprisonment,  I  am  to  shew  all  the  cir- 
cumstances of  that  assault  in  aggravation. 

Court,  Certainly ;  that  is  for  the  jud^ent 
•f  the  court;  but  if  you  did  not  state  it,  you 
might  by  affidavit  bring  it  home.— I  don't 
see  that  a  jury  can  give  a  judgment  upon 
Ihis. 

Mr.  Dunning.  It  would  ha^  been  a  sub- 
stantive and  distinct  offence  if  charged. 

Court.  It  would  have  been  put  as  continued 
with  a  view  of  makmg  away  with  him,  and 
it  is  a  point  of  that  i^ture.  I  was  turning  it 
in  my  mind  how  to  take  the  verdict  of  the 
jury,  upon  that  point ;  but  I  think  it  is  out  of 
the  case;  I  do  it  so  fiEu*  in  justice  to  the  de- 
fendants. I  think  I  cannot  take  the  opinion 
•f  the  jury  upon  it,  as  to  those  drcumstances, 
with  regard  to  the  taking  away  the  life  of 
lord  Pigot;  to  be  sure  much  too  great  stress 
has  been  laid  upon  them.  The  inference 
does  not  seem  to  me  to  follow :  I  should  have 
left  that  to  the  jury  if  I  could. 

Earl  of  Man^ld :  * 
Gentlemen  of  the  Jury ;  this  is  an  in- 
fonnation  of  great  consequence ;  it  has  taken 
up  a  great  d^  of  time,  and  they  have  gone 
into  a  variety  of  evidence  and  a  great  deal 
more  matter  than  one  knows  immediately 
how  to  apply ;  and  if  I  can  be  of  any  use  to 
you,  it  wuL  only  be  to  direct  your  attention  a 
little  to  what  are  the  questions  upon  this  in- 
formation. 

It  is  an  infonnation  charging  the  defendants 
with  assuming  the  government  of  Madras, 
and  with  assaulting  aiKJ  imprisoning  lord 
Pigot.  There  are  &ve  different  counts  in  it, 
that  is,  five  different  charges  in  the  nature  of 
hve  different  indictments,  but  I  see  no  dif- 
ference between  them,  except  that  in  the  two 
first  counts  the  defendants  are  additionally 
.charged  with  assuming  the  eoverament,  and 
in  the  three  others  only  wiUi  assaulting  and 
.imprisoning  my  lord  Pigot;  but ^et  I  think 
that  will  make  no  difference;  for  if  there  is 
not  a  justification  they  must  be  found  guilty 
oi  all^ — and  if  there  is  a  justification  ror  as- 
suming the  government,  it  will  veiy  nearly 
follow  that  there  may  be  a  justification  for 
imprisoning  lord  Pigot: — so  that  it  does  not 
occur  to  me  that  it  is  necessary  to  call  your 
attention  to  distinguish  between  the  counts, 
and  therefore  if  tbey  are  found  guilty  they 

will  be  found  guilty  of  all. 

—  — • 

*  This  report  of  lord  Mansfield's  samming  ap,  is 
MBpilod  from  the  Notes  of  Mr.  Blancbtrd  and  Mr. 
Oamey.— -For  the  commooicalion  of  Mr.  Gnmey*s 
Notes,  I  am  indebted  to  Mr.  Praaois  Gngg,  whose 
Ikiher  was  employed  u  8oli«ilcir  ibr  the  JMNidaBU 


againa  George  SiraUon        [129 

There  are  three  matters  upon  wliieh  thi 
question  dependst 

First,  what  is  the  constitution  of  the  ^ 
▼emment  of  Madras,  with  r^ard  to  the  g^ 
▼emor  and  council  in  whom  the  whole  power 
is  vested  by  the  East  India  Companv? 

In  the  3nd  place,  whether  my  ford  ?vgA 
had  subverted  or  violated  thst  consUtnliai^ 
so  as  to  assume  the  whole  to  himself? 

In  the  3rd  place,  supposing  that  he  hii 
done  that  which  may  be  called  a  violatioD  of 
the  constitution,  and  assuming  an  aadai 
power  to  himself  j  whether  it  wul  afibrd  vaj 
justification  to  the  defendants  for  what  thej 
have  done  in  assuminz  the  ^verameotiiilB 
their  own  hands,  and  impnsoning  my  kni 
Pigot;  and  in  this  case  you  must  find  the  6ct 
of  euilty  or  not 

You  have  nothing  to  do  with  dems  tf 
alleviation,  because  your  verdict  wiuibflov 
the  chanre,  and  no  circumstances  of  asntn- 
tton  wiir  appear  frem  your  veidict,!^ 
your  verdict  says  the  charoes  are  tnie  or 
false.  When  they  come  up  for  jw^mcnl,  if 
there  are  circumstances  of  alleviatxm  th^ 
must  appear  by  my  report,  and  therefore  jtn 
have  heard,  already  I  nave  delivered  you  m 
that  about  which  a  great  deal  has  been  said. 

The  charge  of  intention  to  take  aivay  tU 
life  of  lord  Pigot  is  out  of  the  case.— It  doe 
not  strike  roe  that  there  is  anv  erideace  of 
such  intention,  but  it  is  out  of  the  case. 

Now  as  to  the  first— the  constitutkm  oftbi 

fovemment  of  Madras, — as  to  that,  it  b  if 
uty  to  tell  you  what  I  think  of  it— and  I  te- 
lieve  I  have  no  difficulty  in  mv  opinkm  iboi< 
that,  but  if  I  had  any  orijginaily  it  is  now  » 
moved  by  the  consent  given,  and  I  take  tbi 
constitution  of  th^  government  and  coaacfl 
of  Madras  to  be  this,  that  the  governor  is  is 
integiul  part ;  and  therefore  there  can  be  w 
council  held,  unless  the  governor  is  preeenL— 
I  do  not  speak  of  cases  where  there  is  i 
provision  for  a  deputy  to  supply  his  phoe^ 
nothing  arises  upon  that  here,  of  any  poitt* 
cular  provision  tor  a  deputy  instead  oif  tin 
governor ;  but  I  take  him  to  be  an  iotegni 
part,  and  that  his  presence  is  necessary  ts 
constitute  the  counal. 

And  if  he  left  the  council,  though  hi 
might,  if  it  was  in  the  middle  of  business  td 
debate,  be  criminsd  in  so  doing,  yet  it  woatf 
operate  as  putting  an  end  to  that  cound, 
just  as  much  as  if  a  mayor  upon  a  stated  d^ 
of  election  were  to  absent  tiimself,  it »  > 
crime  for  him  to  do  so,  for  which  be  is  puniii^ 
abie,-^but  yet  there  would  be  an  enlof  Ai 
election,  because  he  is  an  integral  part 

But  though  he  is  an  integral  part  in  thi 
way  that  I  hfive  described  to  you,  yet  hekii 
no  negative  upon  a  majority  of  the  COUBC1I7- 
He  is  only  one,  votes  with  the  rest,  and  ■ 
case  of  equality  (whether  he  has  h  or  no^l 
see  in  this  case  he  takes  a  casting  voicc-^t 
is  very  convenient  he  should  have  a  caitias 
voice~>probably  he  has  it^ — ^betakes a ettj' 

gvoio^  but  he  has  no  n^ativvaidliCi 


mg  Toio^ 


122  J] 


iuid  otherSiJhr  tkpasing  Lord  Ptgot 


A.  D.  177a 


[1SS2 


lind  every  other  of  the  'minority,  are  bound 
by  the  majority  of  voices. 

The  neit  thing  that  I  think  is  clear  is^  that 
be  the  course  of  business  as  it  may,  m  de- 
cency and  propriety  and  in  custom,  that  the 
president  and  govesaor  should  be  the  man 
who  best  knows  what  business  the  council 
should  go  upon,-^yet  he  is  bound  to  put  such 
nieatiDos  as  the  minority  are  <^9pinion  should 
6e  put,  and  not  put  such  questions  as* they 
nentive;  foritwoukl  be  a  strange  thing  if 
noDUBUiess  could  be  done  but  what  he  pro* 
poaes  ;T*that  would  be  a  negative  upon  the 
meitation  of  business ; — for  be  may  propose 
what  is  liked  except  in  one  part»  and  Uien  a 
■leniber  of  the  council  proposes  an  amood* 


But  as  to  putting  the  question  he  is  minis- 
terial ;  while  he  stays  in  council,  .the  council 
16  regularly  constituted ;  they  can  say  what 
question  shall  be  entertained,  and  what  shall 
not  be  entertained ;  and  that,  I  think,  makes 
up  the  whole  of  this  constitution  by  the  go- 
vernor and  council  of  Madras. 

The  second  consideration  is,  what  lord 
Pigot  has  done  to  violate  this  constitution. 

Now,  as  to  that,  you  see  that  after  the 
nyah  was  put  in  possession  of  Tanjore,  I 
tlMnk  about  the  month  of  May,  there  or 
thereabouts,  there  began  to  be  dissentions  in 
the  council.  They  all  ajgreed,  or  at  least 
there  was  always  a  ms^onty  until  that  time, 
until  they  wrote  to  the  Company  that  the 
vuah  was  put  into  possession  of  Tanjore;  but^ 
afterwards,  theie  are  several  disputes,  and* 
the  greater  number  of  the  council  are  one 
way,  aad  lord  Pigot  and  the  minority  are  the 
other. 

They  dispute  about  Benfield's  claim,  as  a 
^nortgagee  of  the  nabob,  to  the  growing  crop 
efTaiyore. 

They  dispute  about  three  angry  motions 
thsUlprd  Pigot  proposed,  against  any  of  them 
visiUng  the '  nabob  or  his  sons,  and  that  ha 
ahouldbe  sent  to  Arcot  to  reside,  and  about 
another  motion  or  two  of  that  sort. 

And  last  of  all,  the  main  point  they  differ 
upon  is  this^  whether  coL  8tuart  should  go 
to  Tamore  without  Mr.  Russel,  or  Mr.  Eussel 
should  go  with  him? — ^Now  it  is  not  at  all 
materiafto  go  into  ^he  particular  resolutions 
of  these  matters  that  I  have  stated  to  you, 
because  it  is  so  clear  before  the  whole  ends, 
that  it  is  plain ;  lord  Pigot  insists  that  he  is 
not  bound  to  nut  any  question -but  what  he 
thinks  fit,  and  ne  insists  that  no  act  of  the 
soi^rity  without  his  name  to  it  is  good,  and 
Uierefore  that  he  has  the  negative  in  his 
power. 

.  But -the  great  point  of  all  is,  what  passed 
mi  the  19th  and  80th  tf  August  There  are 
two  or  three  several  meetings  where  lord 
PigQt  insists  that-  no  regard  should  be  paid  to 
the  orders,  for  col.  Stinrt's  going  to  Tazgore, 
l^at  no  motion  of  that  sort  should  be  agi- 
tilted,  and  that  he  will  put  no  question  pror 
ffivA  by  the  majority,  with  ktgpid  to  coL 


Stuart,  and  that  positively  he  never  wouldr 
consent  to  col.  Stuart's  going,  unless  Mr.' 
Russel  goes  at  the  very  same  time,  and  that 
he  will  sign  no  motion  that  is  carried  by 
them,  he  will  not  put  a  question,  he  •  wilh  not 
take  their  votes.  Upon  which,  they  propose, 
as  a  way  of  obviating  this  obstinacy  of  the 
governor,  that  the  member  who  put  that 
motion  which  he  refused  (Mr.  Floyer),  should 
collect  the  whole  and  take  the  votes;  and 
it  appears  there  is  a  minority  for  colonel 
Stuart's  going. 

Then,  say  they,  how  shall  we  get  this 
signed  as  an  act  of  council,  for  the  governor 
must  put  his  name  to  it;  he  will  not  do  it. 

Then  they  propose  that  the  secretary  sftiaU 
be  ordered  to  put  his  name  to  it,  saying  that 
it  was  an  order  of  council,  or  an  order  of  the 
governor  and  council,  and  this  they  propose 
tO'do,  being  driven  to  it  by  the  obstinacy  of 
the  governor,  who  would  not  put  the  ques- 
tion ;  and  they  draw  up  a  paper  and  autho-* 
rise  the  secretary  to  sign  the  order  that  tliey* 
should  make,  and  \mt  is  in  eflcct  this:-^ 
We  the  majority  direct  you,  (speaking  to  the 
secretary)  to  sign  by  the  order  of  council  and 
send  to  col.  Stuart  such  and  such  direclioos 
as  they  were  to  give. 

All  the  majority  then  sitting  at  the  board 
agreed  in  this  vote,  and  that  it  should  ba 
reuuced  into  writing  for  all  of  them  to  sign ; 
the  defendants  Stratton  and  Brooke  signed 
first,  being  to  be  followed  by  the  other 
five ;  but  when  they  two  had  signed  it^  the 
president  took  it  out  of  one  of  their  hands 
into  his  possession,  and  declared  he  would 
now  stop  It  where  it  was ;  and  pulled  a  paper 
out  of  his  pocket  and  read  it :  '<  I  charge 
Geo.  Stiattou^  and  Henry  Brooke^  esquires, 
with  being  ^ilty  of  an  apt  subversive  of  tha 
authority  ot  government,"  and  so  on« 
'  The  crime  was,  the  si«iin£  that  paper 
which  the  majority  had  resotveif.  And  charge 
ing  them  with  this  crime,  in  doing  that  which 
the  minority  had  done  in  every  thing  except 
the  signing,  for  they  had  resolved  i^^then 
he  orders  uem  to  withdraw,  and  then  he  put 
the  question  for  superseding  them,  and  gives 
the  secretary  an  order  not  to  take  their  votes. 

So  by  this  means  the  minority  is  turned, 
for  the  council  is  equally  divided,  and  lord 
PigoVs  casting  vote  carries  the  question* 
Now  there  is  that  act,  and  to  be  sure  it  was 
a  most  illegal,  arbitrary,  and  violent  act,  and 
it  certainly  was  an  assuming  of  the  whole 
government  by  my  lord  Pigot;  because,  in 
order  to  gain  a  vote  of  the  majority,  two 
members  of  the  council  are  ordered  out  and 
superseded;  if  three  had  b^en  wanted,  it 
would  have  been  the  same ;  they  are  all 
equally  involved  in  the  same  crime^  so  much 
I  as  it  was  a  crime  to  vote  as  tbev  did ;  in  re- 
spect^ to  giving  authority  to  the  secretary, 
tney.had  all  agreed  to  it;  and  therefore  it 
clearly  was  for  the  purpose,  of  getting  a  ma- 
jority of  the  council,  and  then  b^  getting  a 
miyority  of  tht  council,  any  a^t  imgm  bo  ~~ 


19  GEOBGE  nL        ProeeeiiMp  sgmmst  Gemgn  fiCrattN       [191 


Bed;  for  the  governor migtit  stop  anycomdl, 
1»y  going  awa^ ;  and  from  his  nut  being  pro- 
tent  and  calling  a  council,  no  bttsine»&  coold 
'  be  dune,  Uiat  is  most  certain ;  but  if  business 
was  to  be  done,  he  must  have  a  cooncil  to 
bis  mind,  and  by  this  conduct  most  unques- 
tionably be  got  a  majori^  of  the  council  by 
force ;  for  in  the  same  way  that  he  struck  out 
Strattoo  and  Brooke,  the  others  too  naight  be 
struck  out. 

But  supposisjg:  this  &ct  illegal  in  the  wny 
I  have  stated,  it'  is  bubverting  the  constitu- 
tion by  the  minority  of  the  council ;  tilt  a  re- 
medy could  be  brought,  for  the  same  reason 
that  they  dismissed  two  to  day,  they  might 
dismiss  two  more  to  morrow,  it  they  did  not 
come  into  hu  measures.  •  It  seems  as  mach 
laying  aside  their  power  as  Cromwell  did 
that  of  the  House  of  Commons  when  he 
turned  them  out  of  doors. 

But  the  main  question  then  reobains ;  sup^ 
posing  this  to  be  true,  will  it  aflbrd  a  justin- 
oation  to  the  defendants  f  Although  at  the 
last  voting  they  were  a  majority  of  the  coun- 
cil then  present,  they  had  no  l^al  authority 
whatsoever  without  the  governor.  •  They  arc 
BO  council  without  the  governor,  for  the 
council  must  be  called  by  the  governor, 
and  they  must  be  duly  summoned.  The 
moineiit  of  the  suspension,  there  is  no 
summoning  in  the  case ;  and  you  see  I  do 
not  state  nere  lord  PigoVs  suspending-  the' 
Others  of  th^  council  afterwards,  nor  arresting 
sir  Robert  Fletcher,  because  there  is  a  doubt 
nf  an  hour  or  two,  whether  it  was  not  with- 
out knowing  how  the  others  ^acted, — ^th^t 
each  acted  without  knowing  the  orders  of 
the  others.  Now  upon  what  ground  is  this 
justification }'  they '  had  no  legal  authority, 
that  is  certain.  Why  they  say,  it  was  upon 
necessity  ;  and-  to  be  sure  wherever  necessity 
forces  a  man  to  do  -an  illegsd  act^>/(M»c^  him 
to  do  it,  it  justifies  him,  because  no  man  can 
be  guil^  of  a  crime  without  the  will  and  in- 
tention of  his  mind.  It  must  be  voiluntary ; 
therefore  a  madman  cannot  commit  a'crlrae. 
A  man  who  is  absolutely  by  natural  necessity 
ftfrced,  his  will  does  hot  go  along  with  the 
^ ;  and  therefore  in  the  case  of  natural  ne- 
cessity, (and,  by  the  by,  whenever  a  question 
t|ims  upon  natural  necessity  it  is  a  qu6s- 
tisn  to  be  determined  by  a  jury,  and  by  a  jury 
dniy,  it  is  a  question  upon  fact  and  the  de- 
^e  of  fact),  if  a  roan  is  forced  to  commit 
acts  of  high  treason,  if  it  appears  really 
force,  and  such  as  human  nature  could  not  be 
eicpected  to  resist,  and  the  jury  are  of  that 
dpmion,  the  man  is  not  then  guilty  of  high 
tKason.  In  a  case  of  homicide^  if  a  man  was 
attacked,  and  in  danger,  and  so  on  in  a  variety 
df  instances,  natorarnecessit^r  t^rtiunly  justi- 
fies; but  this  is  not 'a 'case  of  natural*  nede9- 
aky ;  lord  Pigot  was  n6t  going  to  kill  any 
Df  ttiose  men^  nor  attack  them  eitbler  in.his 
private  capacity,  or  as  governor  or  magis^ 
irate  with  his  council ;  aSd  ther^fe'it  must 
JM  what  ia  oallad  a  dvil  Or  a  stato  necessity. 


Now  as  to  natmal 
I  alluded  to  are  all 
tfaoritiA. 

As  to  civil  nteaaktff  bodb  cmi  fasffn  is 
oorpantioDs^  societiea,  and  bodies  of  iKo^ 
riving  then-  authority  uoAor  the  crova,  tal 
tbcmere  -suboniiBates  ik>  case  am  dU 
exist  in  England,  no  case  ever  eta  eal^ 
because  thero  is  a  segolBr  foveniBMai  to 
whioh'tfaeycaB  apply,  tba^  have  a  mifam 
at  hand,  andthernbae  I  caoaot  bewnnsiBi 
to  pur  you  any  aase  of  dvil:  naeeaoty  tbH 
justifies  ille^  acta;  because  thecasenetocnti 
isg,  nor  bem^ supposed  to  anst,  tfacnisas 
autbority  in  ibe  law  .books,  nor  any  aiiS«d|Bd 
ease  upon  it  Imagination  vat^  saggsA^ym 
may  suggest  so  extraordinary  a  case  as  wm 
justify  a  man  by  fofce  overtiirninga  mi§^ 
tiate  and  be^nning  a  new  govefnment,  al 
by  force,-!  mean  in  India,  where  there  isos 
superior  nigh  them  to  apply  to ;  in  Eogjbaid 
it  cannot  bAppen;  but  in  bidta  you  may  np- 
pose  a  poesibie  case,  but  in  that  case,  it  ORat 
be  imminent,  extreme,  necessity ;  theieaKBt 
be  no  other  Mmedy  to  apply  to  for  redreis; 
it  must  be  very  imminent,  tt  must  be  var 
extreme,  and  in  the  whole  they  do,  thcjr 
must  a|^>ear  clearly  to  ^  it  with  a  view  sf 
preservmethe  society  and  themselves,— with 
a  view  of  preserving  the  whole. 

But  in  tnis  case  here,,  where  is  that  imiiB- 
nent  extreme  necessity  ?  but  that  I  leave  ti 
you  as  judges  of  it.  For  as  in  natuial  neG» 
stty,  soMu  the  other,  ^tte^uy  are  to  judge,  if 
a  case  exists^'  or  if  you  thmk  this  a  case  «da^ 
iog  of  that  nature.  What  •inunenae  owdiitf 
would  have  arisen,  to  have  waited  for  tla 
interposition  of  the  council  at  Bengal,  or  svai 
to  have  waited  for  the  dirocticMis  of  the  Eart 
India  Company  here?  or  whstwastobedon^ 
suppose  the  rsyah  of  Tanjore  had  got  poi« 
session  of  this  cwp,  and  more^  ftan  he  om 
to  have  had  V  would  ttitPb  have  been  a  ab- 
solution of  the  factovy  at  Madras  f 

You  will  take  all  the  cummfilanoes  villi 
you  and  conskier them.  lor  Icuppoeakfi 
Pigot 's  government  byfaia-eouUcil  aaill^ 
government  atler  this :  suppose  it  sd  ;  cat 
tben  the  other  is  an  illegal  govemowDt  too; 
the  other  is  auiie  illegal ;  uiere  is  no  coifr 
cil  at  all.  Then  you  must  see,  the  Om^ 
panv^s  seltlements  are  preserved  by  it  Rr 
if  there  is  a  straggle  of  a  factioo,  it  ail 
be  upon  ^aa  iHegaT  act.  If  the  gotcntf 
does  twenty  illegal  acts,  that  wiU  not  be  a 
justification  of  it ;  it  must  tend  to  the  difltsk^ 
tion  of  society,  and  the  fntenrantkm  nairt 
tend  to  the  preservation  of  it.  ' 

There  are  many  collateral  cticumsiaM 
they  in^st  uptm^  but-  iMspeadant  of  a  ««n 
of  them,  it  i^'naoessary  for  yon  10  besatisM 
this  is  such  w  aecesaify  to  pnnertioifae  Mwa 
ment  of  Madras  to  the  Company  aid  tsv 
Snglish  cfowo,  u  iaanalQ«o«atothenat«« 
neeesaityl  have  been  spe«ioa^o£  >  -  ^ 
1  There  aa&oiher'ClroiaflEfstaaJbs'I  nil  dM 
to  for  your  aoiaHaiaUPnj  tbat 


BBS] 


and  otheriffir  iepodng  Lord  Pigoi. 


tius  hatreaHj^beekia  struggle  about,  in  the 
first  fkiaoe,. preventing  the  r^yah  from  havuig 
poeaesiion  of  this  crop  f  Now  as  to  thatyU 
It  turned  upon  that,  it  is  not  very  clear,  upon 
the  evidence,  that  the  Company  had  decided 
vdlh  regard  to  that  question^  ror  the  presi* 
dent  and  council  wrote'to  the  Companvt  and 
they  tell  tbem  they  haire  jHit  the  n^ah  into 
poas^sBionrof  all  tnat  bis  wther  had  in  17^2, 
that  is  of  aU  the  lasd.^r'But  anan  mav  be  in 
pooacBuionof  the  lands  and  another  have  « 
r^bt  to  the  eoibkments ;  they  write  a  letter 
t»  the  Company,  mid  say  the  rajah  is  in  pos- 
session, sna  ahoii[t  the  possession  of  the  crop 
there  was  a  di&uhy ;  and  thev  go  uponthia 
flound,  in  their  reaolalioB%  that  the  nabob 
&d  sown  the  obp,  and  therefore  shovdd 
reap  il. 

Then  t^wre  is  anotbcr  point  that  suggests 
itaelf,  Ihitt  is  proper  for  your  consideraticHiy 
and  that  is,  that  in  t^ng^up  the  claim  or 
Benfield  there  nuut  be  a  fellow-ftelinff  for 
Inm,  or  some  interest  must  be  concerned,  for 
the  majority  had  voted  before  for  giving  the 
rajah  the  crop  upon  tbr  grotmd ;  and  th^ 
l^ave  orders  to  the  military  to:march  in,  that 
It  would  not  admit  of  delays  because  the  crop 
was  upon  the  ground ;  some  i^onis  (tar«xpMS- 
sioBBof  th^t  sort  wvfedMd,  it  wbuld  pot  adfliit 
<^  delay,  beeausisthe'crop  wan  onthe  orouod. 

TfaAt  is  offered  as  another'  subject  w  con- 
flidetation,  as' having  some  private  views,  but 
there  is  no  evidence  to  this*  point.  Thento 
1)e  sure  tiiey  begin  their  goveranlent  with? an 
illegal  act,  which  is  superseding  and  not 
summoning  members  to  the.oovncil,  and  I 
think  those  are  the  general  heads  and  topics; 

But  the  only  question  for  you  to*  consider  is 
this ;-— Whether  there  was  that  necessity  for 
the  preservation  of  the  societv  and  .thetinhabi- 
tants  of  the  place  as  authorises  private  men 
(Ibr  when  thev  are  out  of  the  coundi  till  a 
council  is  calfed  they  are  privets  men,  the 
ccmnseUors  are  only  more  censiderabie  tmsn, 
and  mote  to  be  trussed  byfv)  to  take  possession 
of  the  government ;  and  to  take  possession  of 
the  government,  tb  be  suf  e  it  was  necessary 
to  do  it  immediately;  if  they  were  warranted 
to  do  the  thin^  they  had  not  security  in  it 
without  taking  Sne  peison  of  loiid  Pigot;  for 
he  had  aJI'tho  militcrv  with  hiror  winiin  the 
Ibrt  and  town ;  he  had  long  ago  been  governor 
there,  and  had  been  there  at  the  siege  of 
Madras,  and  was  known  to  the  soldieiy. 

If  you  can  fitid  that  there  was  thatiabsolute 
immment  necessity  for  the  preservation  of  the 
whole,  vouwill  acquit  the  defendants ;  if  you 
tiiink'  there  was  not  that  absolute  necessity, 
notwiihstandine  the  provocation  they  >  bad 
iWnn  the  very  iu^al  act  of  lord  Pigot,  and  the 
tfifect  of  what  the  council  resolved  hefore  that 
trahsaction  of  lord  Pigotp— if  you  think  there 
%as  not  that  absolute  netessitv  that  I  ^tnen- 
tioned  (for  I  know,  as  I  said  befere,  no  defini- 
ilon,  and  there  tes  been  none  -made  in  the 
«rgum«nt  of  this  case^  of  that  necessity),  to 
defendants  in  thia.case,  you  will 


A.  D.  1779.  {tnS 

„  ^  ;  therefore  upon  these  point% 
gentlemen,  you  will  consider  of  and  find  your 
verdict. 

The  Jury,  after  retiring  for  a  short  time,  at 
two  o*ck)ck  in  the  morning  brought  in  their 
verdict,  Guilty. 

In  the  preceding  Report  of  this  Trial,  theio 
appear  to  be  some  inaccuracies  of  tlie  Short- 
hand writer,  which  I  have  not  ventured  to 
correct. 

[I  have  not  met  with  any  Report  taken  in 
Short-hand  of  the  proceedings  in  thi/i  (^ase 
subsequent  to  the  Trial.  Of  those  pio* 
ceetlhngs,  the  best  acoount  I  have  <Kbco» 
vered  is  exhibited  in  a  Pamphlet  puK 
lished*  at  the  time,  and  intitled,  "  An 
Abstract  of  the  Trial  of  Croorge  StratUnv 
Henry  Brooke,  Charles  Fk^yer,  and  George 
Mackay,  esqrs.  for  depoung  the  Right 
Hon.  l^rd  Pigo.t,  late  Governor  of  Fq^' 
St.'Qcorge,iinJhB£|i9^Indies.,  jUndon# 
ir80.^'  From  this  Paifiphlet^  the  Report 
given  below  is  principally  taken.] 

'  On  Thursday,  'Sd^of  February,  1700, -being 
the^aya^pointed  fbr  the  defcfndants  to  re^ 
ceive  the  judgment  of  the  Court, 

'  Lord  Mansfield  reported  tbe^case.  He  stated, 
that  the  evidence  given  at  the  trial,  consisted 
of  minutes  of  consultations,  of  letters,  and 
other  exhibits,  which,  he  said,  took  up  seveial 
hours  in  reading  ;  firom  two  volumes,  printed 
by  authohtv:  that  frcm  these  b<^9KS  was 
read,  as  well  the  evidence  which  applied  to 
the  defence,  as  that  adduced  in  support  of 
the  prosecution.  It  Ia,  ssud  his  lordship,  im* 
possible  to  state  that  evidence  minutely ;  if  I 
should  attempt  it,  1  do  not  know  how  longa 
time  it  would  take  s  but  to  obviate  that  di!n<- 
culty,  and  render  it  unnecessary,  I  have  used 
this  expedient:  Mr.  Justice  Wilies,t  having 
some  coaaection  with  the  parties,  declines 

O  With  Ike  followiav 

"  AoVEKTISBliXNt. 

<*  Tb«  following  ilite  of  the  proceerfinyg  agiunst 
Mr.  StrattrtD  snd  otbin)ror  liheir  condoot  on  the 
Ifele  Rovolotion  in  tlis  Sattlewtot  of  Madran,  Is  a 
oopj  of  ib$  NolBS  of  a  gentlonan  of  Lmooin'a-ino; 
token  for  Us  own  privfttome,  nad  trunaribod  •«t  Iks 
desire  of  Mme  parlioolar  friends.  Ai  they  weie  not 
intended  io  meet  the  public  eye,  thej  wUl  not  be  ea<» 
peoted  io  fnrniih  a  technical  deUil  of  the  whole  prOf 
reedings.  The  Editor  flatten  hinuelf  Ihey  will  be 
found  to  h«faithfkU\  and  as  the  proieculor  and  the 
defendants,  (from  obvious  reasons)  decline  publish- 
ing the  Notes  of  their  Short- hand  writers,  he  prs^ 
snmes  a  design  U>  inform  the  pablio  on  •«  tohjset 
which  hss  justly  awakened  tlieSr  cnribiily  sad  alliS- 
ticn,-will  be'iavoiiribly  reeeived.* 

t  Hedldiietaileudl. 


1SS73  19  GEORGE  HI.      .   Proeudinp  cigfAiui  George  Siratttm         [122S 


giving  any  assistance :  and  I  have  given  the 
other  judges  the  printed  books  with  my  notes, 
refemng  to  the  dates  and  folios  of  such  parts 
as  were  read  in  evidence.  Theyhave,  too, 
my  notes  of  the  parol  evidence,  which  tendcMi 
oiu  v  to  fix  a  charge,  that  the  imprisonment  of 
lord  Pieot,  or  the  removing  him  from  one 
place  ofconfiQement  to  another,  was  with  in- 
tent to  assassinate  him :  the  evidence  does 
not  prove  it ;  nor  was  it  charged  by  the  in- 
formation. It  was  intended  likewise  to  prove, 
that  by  a  conversation  on  the  S7th  of  Aumist, 
between  lord  Pisot  and  eighteen  artillery- 
men, it  appeared,  that  his  lordship  was  a 
daring  intrepid  man,  and  that  if  he  could  have 
got  over  the  troops  to  his  party,  he  would  have 
used  them. 

Mr.  Attorney  General,  in  his  opening,  laid 
great  stress  on  that  circumstance ;  that  it  was 
actually  intended,  under  the  pretence  of  re- 
moving his  lordship  to  a  more  proper  place  of 
confinement,  to  assassinate  him :  it  was  stated 
f^th  great  energy,  laboured  by  the  evidence; 
and  there  yrere  aiuwet^  given  to  it  by  the  de- 
fendants: and  in  his  reply,  Mr.  Attorney 
General  laboured  it  excessively,  with  more 
than  his  usual  eloquence.  I  thought  the 
defendants  had  particular  reiasons  for  not  ob- 
jecting to  it^  and  therefore  I  did  not  prevent 
their  going  into  it.  It  certainly  made  a  great 
impression  on  the  audience,  but  it  was  not  in 
the  cause ;  nor  was  it  properly  a  circumstance 
of  agfijravation  of  that  crime,  which  was'al- 
legedoy  the  information.  It  is  a  nile  of  law, 
that  wherever  there  arises  a  fact,  constituting 
another  ai^d  greater  crime,  it  must  be  laid 
in  the  indictment  or  information,  as  where  the 
same  crime  is,  either  less  or  more  enormous, 
according  to  the  circumstances,  as  imprison^- 
ment:  but  where  the  intent  constitutes  a 
crime  of  a  different  complexion,  that  intent 
must  be  laid  in  the  indictment :  as  in  the  case 
of  an  indictment^^r  an  assault  on  a  woman, 
you  cannot  give  m  evidence  that  it  was  with 
mtentto  commit  a  rape.  An  assault,  with 
intent  to  commit  a  rape,  or  to  maim,  and  a  va- 
riety of  other  cases,  cannot  be  given  in  evi- 
dence on  an  indictment  for  an  assault  only ; 
the  intent  cannot  be  tried,  unless  it  is  charged. 
i  gave  atkecided  opinion  as  to  this  point:  I 
thought  it  justice  to  the  defendants  so  to  do : 
though  the  jury  could  not  exercise  any  judg- 
ment on  that  Question.  I  told  the  jury  uiat  I 
was  saUsfied  (and  I  am  now  fully  satisfied), 
that  the  defendants  never  intended  to  put 
lord  Pisot  to  death,  nor  to  use  him  HI,  or 
worse  than  the  necessity  of  his  imprisonment 
required.  The  evidence,  indeed,  proves,  that 
rattier  than  let  him  escape,  they  would  have 
proceeded  to  extremities. 

There  is  a  letter  of  the  defendants,  on  which 
great  stress  is  laid :  wherein  they  say,  that  in 
any  attempt  to  rescue  his  lordship,  as  the  last 
resource,  his  life  must  answer  it.  The  defen- 
dants say,  they  did  this  to  intimidate  his 
lordship  and  his  firiends ;  and  the  thing  im- 
ports so;  for  no  man  who  intends  to  assassi* 


nate  another,  tells  him  of  his  inteotiaa.  They 
ofiered  to  discharge  his  lordship,  on  being  se- 
cured against  any  violence  on  his  part,  aad 
on  his  engaging  for  the  public  tnnquillity. 
There  was  no  cruelty  exercised :  their  conduct 
was  calculated  only  to  prevent  his  rescue, 
whereby  their  government  would  have  been 
endangered.  Great  stress  was  hid  on  the 
violent  dispute  between  the  eovemor  and  the 
minority  of  the  council,  wheuier  one  Benfield 
who  had  lenL  or  said  he  had  lent,  the  nabob 
large  sums  of  money,  on  the  security  of  the 
cropofTanjore,  should  have  the  boiefit  of 
that  security  against  the  raiah;  and  it  was 
insinuated,  that  the  defendants  were  oon- 
cerned  in  that  loan  (if  way  existed),  BeofieUI 
being  in  a  situation  incapable  of  lending  ii^ 
and  that  the^  were  acting  for  their  own  mo-. 
ney ;  or  if  tms  were  not  the  caise,  then,  that 
money  was  corruptly  given  among  than  for* 
their  mterest  Tney  gave  evidence  that  Paul 
Benfield  was  in  En^hmd,  and  had  been  seen 
in  London,  three,  rour,  or  five  days  befiire  the 
trial;  and  there  was  great  use  made  in  the 
reply  of  the  circumstance  of  the  deliendants 
not  calling  Benfield  to  eive  evidence  whether 
the  money  was  actuaSy  lent,  or  who  was 
concerned  with  him.  If  it  had  been  piovcd 
that  it  was  the  defendants'  own  money,  it  would ' 
have  been  a  material  circumstance  of  ag^- 
yation :  if  this  was*  the  motive  of  their  actioii^ 
if  they  were  influenced  by  corruption,  it  is- 
doubtful  whether  it  ought  not  to  have  been 
charged — but  there  was  no  evidence  ather 
wav.  It  is  certain,  there  were  great  j«dousics 
and  suspicions  of  each  other  between  lonl 
Pigotandthe  council.  There  was  noreasea. 
why  the  prosecutor  did  not  call  Benfield  ;  he 
might  have  examined  him  to  all  these  of- 
cumstanoes. 

There  was  a  piece  of  evidence  otknd  by 
the  defendants^  which  consisted  of  letters  to, 
and  answers  from,  the  supreme  council  at 
Bengal ;  the  reading  these  was  olneded  to  on 
the  part  of  the  prosecution:  but  as  the 
governor  and  councU  at  Bengal,  have  a 
superintendency  over  all  the  settlements  in 
India,  as  to  the  making  war  and  peace,  and  na 
this  was  a  political  question,  involving  in  it 
the  welfare  of  the  Company  at  a  great  distance 
from  Europe,  on  concerns  of  eastam  princes, 
whose  interests  are  much  better  knivvB  and 
understood  there  than  here,  as  the  supreae 
council  were  written  to  by  lord  Pigot,  as  well  as 
the  defendants,  and  as  their  answer  is  in  an 
authoritative  stile,  I  thought  it  proper  evt- 
dence  in  a  question  of  pouttcal  necessity,  to 
go  to  the  jury.  In  the  course  of  the  cause,  I  took 
the  truth  to  be,  and  accordingly  stated  it  so 
in  my  directions  to  the  jury,  that  the  infe- 
mation  contained  five  counts;  thai  the  two 
first  counts  charoed  the  defendants  with 
having  assumed  uie  government,  as  wdlas 
the  imprisoning  lord  Pigot;  and  that  tbe 
three  last,  chamd  the  impsisomnent  of  loid 
Pigot  only,  but  did  not  charge  the  assumplMSi 
of  the  govemmment:  but  I  told  the  jus^y 


ISS9] 


ind  others,  Jbr  d^osing  Lord  Pigot. 


A.  D.  1779. 


[1«W 


that  I  did.  not  see  any  distinction  between 
them;  because  the  defence  of  ail  the  five,  was 
the  civil  necessity  which  the  defendants  say 
Aoght  to  justify  what  they  did ;  and  I  told 
them,  the  defendants  musteither  be  acquitted, 
or  convicted  of  all ;  that  the  facts  were  all 
admitted,  and  that  it  was  their  duty  to  judge 
of  the  justification.  There  was  not  an^ 
observation  made  by  the  counsel  upon  this 
direction ;  but  we  were,  all  overseen ;  for  the 
first  count  states  a  fact  necessary  to  be  proved, 
and  which  oiKhtto  have  been  left  to  the  jury, 
and  whicb^  I  think,  was  not  proved.  It 
charges  tfaat  the  defendants  assumed  the 
fovemment,  and  imprisoned  lord  Pigot,  to 
prevent  his  executing  the  orders^  of  the 
Company  to  restore  the  n^ah :  this  is  a  v^ery 
material  fact,  and  ought  to  have  been  stated 
minutely  to  the  jury.  The  question  was, 
whether  the  nabob,  who  was  in  possession  by 
consent  of  the  Company,  and  lutd  sown  the 
country,  should  have  the  emblements  f  they 
iHrrite  a  letter  to  the  directors  here,  that  they 
liave  put  the  rajah  into  possession  of  all  that 
bis  &ther  died  seized  of  in  the  year  1762. — The 
jury  must  Imve  acquitted  the  defendants  upon, 
that  count.  I  told  tnem,  that  the  only  question 
was,  whether  the  defendants  could  histify 
what  they  did  ?  and  that  tliis  depended  on 
three  considerations. — Firtt,  The  constitution 
and  government  of  the  settlement  of  Madras. 
'-'Second,  Whether  lord  Pigot  had  violated 
mnd  overthrown  that  constitution?  And  if  be 
had, — Third f  Whether  that  would  justify  the 
conduct  of  the  defendants?  I  told  them,  that 
by  the  constitution,  the  governor  is  an  integral 
.part  of  the  government;  that  the  council 
could  not  be  neld  but  in  his  presence^  unless 
in  cases  where  the  deputr  was  provided  fo 
aupply  his  absence;  that  though  it  could  not 
be  neld  without  him,  yet  he  had  no  negative 
vote,  nor  power  to  refuse  putting  any  question 

r[)po8ed  in  council.    Upon  the  second  point, 
stated,  that  the  majority  of  the  council 
required  lord   Pigot  to  put  a  question  for 
.aignine  tlie  instructions  to  colonel  Stuart  to 
proceed  to  Tanjore ;  that  he  declared  he  never 
would,  but  afterwards  only  insisted  that  Mr. 
Russel  should  go  with  colonel  Stuart ;  that 
they  at^ourned,  and  at  their  next  meeting, 
the  majority  had  prepared  a  rec|uesland  order 
to  the  secretary  to  sign  the  instructions,  by 
•rder  of  the  majority  of  the  council — (lora 
Pigot  still  insisting  that  he  had  a  negative 
.power): — T\;ie  order  was  ajgreed  to  by  the 
.majority,  and  they  were  signing  it:    when 
.two  had  signed  it,  lord  Pigot  snatched  it 
4iui  of  their  hands,  and  produced  a  written 
card,   charing    those    two    (Stratton   and 
Brod^)  with    this   crime,  which  was  the 
■9ci  of  the  whole  majority.     He  does  not 
allow  them  to  vote,    though    there  is   no 
.cause  of  suspension,  it  being  the  act  of  the 
majority;  and  he  then  carries  the  question 
by  his  own  casting  vote.    He  acted  herein  in 
violation  of  the  constitution,  and  was   not 
Justifiable. 


There*  is  a  circuitistanoe  which  brings  k 
nearer  of  any  to  the  cases  of  natural  necessity, 
which  is,  tliat  soon  afier  the  cotmcil  broke  up, 
lord  Pi^t  anif  to  council,  ordered  sir  Robert 
Fletcher,  general  of  all  the  Company's  forces^ 
under  arrest,  to  be  tried  by  a  courtrmartiai  for 
mutiny,  for  his  behaviour  in  council,  and 
suspended  the  four  other  memberil.  I  enquired 
(said  his  lordship)  at  the  txial,  and  I  wish  now 
to  know  with  precision,  whether  the  arrest  of 
sir  Robert  Fletcher,  and  the  suspensbn  of  the 
rest  of  the  minority,  was  before  they  had 
assumed  the  government,  and  ordered  colonel 
Stuart  to  arrest  lord  Pigot  It  was  left  doubtful 
at  the  trial,  whether  it  was  before  Or  after. 
It  appears  by  the  minutes  of  the  consultation^ 
that  the  four  members  had  notice  of  their  own 
suspension  and  of  the  arrest  of  sir  Robert 
Fletcher,  on  the  evening  of  the  ft3d  of  Aitt;usL 
and  their  order  to  arrest  lord  Pigot  is  cbted 
the  same  day,  at  three  o'clock  P.  M.  [Noie, 
It  was  sworn  by  the  defendants  in  their  afii- 
davits,  which  were  afterwards  read,  that  their 
orders  were  subsequent,  in  point  of  time,  to. 
and  in  consequence  of  their  suspension,  and 
the  arrest  o£  sir  Robert  Fletcher/]  If,  con* 
tinued  his  lordship,  these  acts  of  lord  Pigot 
were  after  their  orders,  they  had  no  excuee  for 
their  conduct,  but  the  apfrehemion  of  danger ; 
if  they  preceded,  they  nad  great  additional 
danger  to  apprehend  and  account  for  ,their 
motives.  I  stated  the  opinion  of  the  supreme 
council,  not  as  conclusive. 

I  told  the  jury,  that  the  third  consideratioi^ 
was,  whether  the  defendants  were  justified, 
by  the  acts  of  the  governor,  to  assume  the 

fovemment  by  a  military  force?  The  law 
nows,  and  the  books  define,  what  a  natural 
necessity  is ;  and  no  man  is  criminal  for  acts 
done  by  him,  under  the  impulse  of  such  ne* 
cessity ;  and  the  law  has  provide^!  for  cas^ 
where  magistrates  in  this  country  go  bevond 
thdr  power :  but  it  is  entirely  new  to  subvert 
by  force  a  subordinate  government :  it  never 
did,  nor  could  exist  in  England;  no  such 
necessity  can  exist  here,  because  there  is  a  < 
legal  remedy  provided.  I  would  not  say,  but 
that  in  the  East  India  settlements,  which  ars 
of  a  peculiar  nature,  at  a  great  distance  from 
this  country,  forming,  a  sort  of  sovereignty, 
surrounded  by  foreign  princes,  such  a  casa 
might  exist,  and  such  cases  did  present  them- 
selves to  one's  imi^nation ;  but  being  cases 
merely  existing  in  imagination,  I  did  not  dare 
to  state  them  to  the  jury ;  but  I  told  them, 
that  unless  a  variety  of  things  concurred, 
such  an  assumption  could  not  be  justified; 
that  it  was  their  duty  to  try  whether  it  was 
justified :  that  to  amount  to  a  justification, 
there  must  appear  imminent  danger  to  the 
government  and  individuals ;  the  Inischief 
must  be  extreme,  and  such  as  would  not  ad- 
mit a  possibility  of  waiting  for  a  legal  remedy* 
That  ttie  safety  of  the  government  must  well 
warrant  the  experiment.  If  it  is  such  an  evil 
as  it  would  be  better  to  tolerate  than  to  brins 
on  a  civil  war,  the  aitempt  to  remove  it  woulo 


1195] 


1{^  OEOBGj^  in.        Proc$Bikgt  Hffdmi  Oearjgi  S^wikm       [tM 


resohiliaitf  to  coDtroui  the  pracee4iDf|i  «f  Ihf    W  fHum  Id  BBslnidy  at  tiMI  iligbt  be  s 
president.     .  proper  meMure  n>r  ue  fiitne  peace  of  the 


Mr.  Lind.  They  have  no  sort  of  contnxd 
by  the  words  of  the  Act  as  to  their  iatenial 
goveniment. 

Court.  Not  with  the  government;  but 
when  they  are  all  together  by  the  ears,  nebedji 
0in  interpOBe  if  they  do  sot 

Mr.  Land,  My  lord,  the  gevrelmoi  and 
council  have  no  command  of  the  foroea,  so 
that  way  they  could  net  have  int^ered. 

At  a  consultation  95tih  of  Jane  1776,  pre- 
sent as  before^the  president  and  council.  £n- 
quinr  into  the  nabob's  complaint  of  the 
rajah's  peoole  taking  part  of  nis  territories^ 
frc.  in  which  those  complaints  are  refuted. 

Ebply. 
Att.  Gen.  Please  your  lordshijp^and  gentle* 
men  of  the  jury ;  I  am  under  a  necessity  of 
troubling  you  ag^ ;  but  I  will  endeavour, 
upon  your  and  my  own  account^  to  comprise 
what  I  have  to  say  to  you,  iivas  small  a  acope 
as  I  can ;  and  not  run  aasiA  into  the  variety 
of  matters  which  have  oeeo  agitated  in  the 
close  of  the  day,  and  which  do  not  seem  to 
me  to  be  strictly  and  pointedly  applicable  to 
the  infonnation  which  you  are  to  try.  In  the 
^tset  of  the  business,  I  stated  to  you  under 
what  countenance  and  authonty  this  inibrmar 
ti<m  was  brought  to  a  trial ;  I  stated  the  di- 
rection I  had  lor  the  proseoution;  I  stated 
the  resolutions  that  had  recently  passed  in 
the  court  of  pr<^cieU>rs,  wh^a  the  matter  was 
first  canvaswd.  upon  the  first  infivmaiian 
comiu^  to  EnsleacL  The  first  authentic  in- 
formation, am  that  fi-equantly  be&re  the 
neoprietors  for  their  information,  was  a  long 
fetter  from  Mr.  Stratlon  and  his  assodates^  in 
irindication  of  their  proceedings,  ta  the  Di. 
rectors  of  the  East  iMia  Company  at  home ; 
which  letter  was  immediately  put  into  print. 
I  was  not  inaccurate  ^n  stating  the  rraohilion 
of  the  ^neral  court  of  proprietora,«-however 
they  differed  in  seme  circumstances,,  they 
were  all  uniform  to  one  point ;  the  second 
lesolution,  as  strongly  as  Uie  first,  inculcated 
and  commanded  the  restpring  lord  Pigot  to 
the  government.  The  first  resolution  of  the 
eourt  of  proprietors,  was  to  take  immediate 
and  direct  steps  to  restore  lord  Pigot;  there 
was  some  difference  after  in  tlie  mode  of  it, 
hy  a  change  of  the  direction,  and  some  delay ; 
but  there  was  no  variation  from  the  ideas, 
that  lord  Pigot  was  wrongfiiUy  dismissed 
^om  the  government.  Mr.  Rumbold,  who 
went  out  with  a  commission  from  the  East 
India  Companv,  went  out  with  express  ordera 
to  restore  lord  Pigot  to  the  government ;  to 
put  the  government  again  in  the  poseessioa 
ei  lord  Fifiot:  so  far  they  disapproved  of 
what  had  been  done  in  the  acts  which  they 
conceived  to  be  totally  illegal,  by  StraUon  sod 
those  joined  with  him.  Separately  from  that 
order,  there  was  another,  that  tluB  parties  id 
this  business  were  supposed  to  be  nmeh 
iM^ted  «0ilast  ooe  aootliav  and  weaa  directed 


1 


scttknaeiit.  Though  that  passed  ia  Msy, 
the  second  leselution  wee  aa-  simog  ti  Ae 
tal,  respecting  the  pioprietf  of  nstwin| 
lord  Pigot.  As  to  the  resoktieaa  tbat  fenei 
in  the  Uonse  of  Commons^  then  eemily 
was  very  fbU  demeDetmtbn  and  oonpide 
evidence  laid  before  that  iio«e,  sateceeeat 
to  disectmg  this  ptfosecuftion :  it  was  tboeght, 
ifithin  the  power  of  that  bcanch  of  the  t^|is» 
lature,  proper  to  be  done,  and  consistent  with 
their  do^,  in  ord^  to  bring  the  offBadtrsto 
public  justice.  It  wtLS  said,  in  a^nalltf  of  this 
aort  the^miefat  have  done  one  thing  difftitat; 
they  night  have  made  H  their  own  pmscu- 
tioB,— and  the  magnitude  ef  the  cauie  wedd 
not  hasre  ill  deserved  it;<-*aBd  have  be» 
tAicmselvee  the  prosecutors,  hy  impeachiMirt^ 
at  t^e  bar  of  the  other  pact  of  the  kgiiktSN. 
Though  that  wae  not,  in  my  jndgmeat,iB> 
adequate  to  such  a  case  aa  this;  I  sn  laedi 
better  pleased  vnth  this,  whoever  w^md 
tht  mode  to  be  adopted,  for  the  Attonsy 
General  to  prosscnjke;  for  this  pbin  ntmn, 
I  think  tliis  is  a  giea^  a»d  will  be  ameno- 
cahle  case  &r  example ;  aa  it  will  not  on^ 
le  doing  justice  in  tus  particular  instaacs;  v 
th«»  were  all  the  object  of  it,  and  the  peaiih- 
ment.went  no  &rtber  than  to  make  sems^ 
gree  of  compensation  to  private  persoai,  ftr 
uunries  they  will  feel  to  the  last  hour  of  tlMir 
life,  it  would  not  be  a  sufficient  ground  for 
inlfetiwg  ef  puqishment;  •  for  that  partdies 
more  of  private  revenue.  The  only  end  I 
know  of  pimi^mentt  isTor  example  to  otbsn; 
fir  the  j^esMTvation  of  the  osder  of  societj ; 
and  making  distinctions  between  the  DsHae 
ef  aoaall,  and^great  ofiboders,  for  the  eomiMs- 
aion  of  crimes  that  endanger  tiie  pesoe  sod 
well  being  of  society.  I  for  one  thmk  tfas  e^ 
Actof  thatcsBmol^  is  bet^r  attained  in  tli0 
course ;  by  exhimting  to  all  who  were  iff 
India  and  all  who  may  medita^  to  go  to  Iiidi% 
to  be  in  mle  there,  thai  in  the  court  of  King's- 
bench,  and  by  a  jury  of  Enalishmcni,  the  con* 
duct  and  the  behaviour,  the  a&irs  of  s  es- 
vemor  and  council  in  India»  may*come  to  w 
serutinused ;  aainan  ordinary  coune  of  juatie^ 
the  &dlity  of  canying  on  such  prosscutkaik 
the  fi«quency  of  thern^  if  the  example  Affm 
call  for  it,  will  strike  much  mora  in  point  of 
example,  and  be  a  subject  much  more  uBen% 
than  the  great  and  unoomown  way  of  pioBsctt- 

tion,  attended  mth  all  the  solemoi^  of  in- 
peachment  by  the  Commons  iji  Engitnd  at 
the  bar  of  the  Lords.  For  this  reaion,  it  u> 
I  am  slad  this  mode  of  proeeeutioo  M 
adopted^  and  I  am  commanded  to  do  it  I 
shaU  say  m>  more  to  ciicumstaaees  fimagn  te 
the  strict  merits  of  the  cause.  GentlesM% 
ynu  will  now  give  me  leave^  for  a  moAeat,  to 
call  your  attention  to  what  tiieee  merits  «« 
I  beff  le«ve  to  eonsider^in  the  firrtptaes,hg# 
lord  Piflot  went  eut  to  India;  imderwhMiJ* 
thority  tie  began  to  act,  in  DmrnxA^r  tfm 
whea  he  amW tiier*.   HeweMandarsa 


im] 


mml  otkerttjfbr  Apamg  Lvri  figot. 


A-D.  in^ 


[1198 


•rder  wMdhl'wM  astoniahed  to  hear^wtB  not 
«ttffi(^Dily  po9itit«  •    thoudi  I  agree  the 
^rdertamnolworMmthmat  accaracTtny 
kwriked  fiieiid  would  have  [nittooB  order  of 
bin  c€«npo9itioii;  but  I  hare  read  Itie  whole 
«rder,  the  latigt^e  ift  pfcun  to  those  purposes 
tetended  to  be  elected  by  it.    It  was  the  o^ 
Ject  of  the  directorsy  upon  acoouol  of  the 
violated  honour  of  the  nation  from  Uutt  great 
lireach  of  faith  committed  respecting  the 
fi0ah  of  Tanjore,  that  he  should  be  imm^- 
diaiely  restored  to  the  possession  of  his  do- 
flfiinions,  under  certain  terms  and  conditions 
between  the  rajah  of  Tasjorc  and  the  Ck)m- 
(any,  not  ki  that  instance,  por  the  rest  of  the 
resolutions  having  reference  to  the  nabob,  but 
itt  the  business  I  shall  state  hereafiseT  ^  which 
terms  and  conditions, — ^notwithstanding  this 
strange  comment  put  upon  the  order  from 
some  minutes  read  to  you, — were  not  leh  to 
the  gentlemen  at  Madras  tb  settle ;  nothing 
fike  It:  the  order  goes  on,  and  article  by 
article,  states  the  terms  tnd  conditions  to 
be  made  upon  the  restoration  of  the  rajah. 
If  jrour  lordship  turns  to  the  order,  your  lord- 
shm  will  find  I  am  correct  in  stating  the  terms 
and  conditions  alluded  to  in  that  paragraph. 
The  orders  are  the  subject  of  several  subse- 
quent paragraphs  that  follow  finom  about  the 
6th  or  7th ;  the  condition  is,  admitting  a  garri- 
mn  of  their  troops  intoTanjore ;  and  upon  that 
k  is  stipulated  upon  the  part  of  the  Com- 
pany,--for  the  sake  of  the  peace  of  Tanjore, 
and  in  order  to  prevent  any  hostile  intentions 
that  might  spring  up  at  Tanjore  to  endaneer 
the  peace  or  the  Camatic  and  endanger  9ie 
]Maoe  of  the  Company's  settlements,--they 
are  to  assure  him  at  the  same  time,  it  is  not 
intended  there  shall  be  an^  diminution  of 
the  kmg  of  Tanjore's  authority  over  his  sub- 
jects ;   Uiey  are,  that  the  king  of  Tanjore 
ahall  consent  to  be  at  the  expence  of  that  ^r- 
fiaon,  that  if  any  dispute  arises,  respeetine 
Ihe  contingent  or  other  expences,  they  shad 
ht  adjustea  by  the  king  of  Tanjore's  agents, 
and  president  and  council ;   and  the  accounts 
ahall  be  made  up  every  3  months ;  that  the 
expence  of  the  garrison  shall  be  settled  be- 
tween the  king  of  Tanjore  and  the  Company ; 
and  he  shall  assign  to  the  Company  revenues 
Ibf  the  maintenance  of  Uiat  garrison.     In 
Ihe  stating  of  all  these  terms  there  is  no  con- 
dition that  has  the  nabob  for  its  object,  but 
one,  and  that  is  distinctly  and  plainly  ex- 
pressed :  the  Company  explain  themselves  to 
mean  not  to  infringe  upon  the  just  rights  of 
the  nabob,  and  they  d^ne  what  those  rights 
^re :  that  when  the  king  of  Tanjore  is  restored 
to  the  possession  of  his  dominions,  he  shall 
continue  to  pay  the  tribute  of  four  lacks  of 
rapctes,  which  by  the  treaty  of  1768  he  was 
bcmnd  fb  pay  to  the  nabob.  These  are,  strictly 
and  plainly,  the  limitations  and  terms  of  the 
business  uiat  was  committed  to  lord  Pigot 
and  his  council  to  be  done  forthwith ;  and  the 
immediate  restoration  of  the  rajah  is  the  sub- 
Jact  BpoksA  of  tn  cfctj  hue  of  tfxe  ilistnic- 


Ifons.— In  pursuance  of  those  inBtnictiona, 
lord  Pigot  went  lo  Tanjore;  and  the  25th  of 
March,  it  was  resolved  he  should  go  frbm 
Fort  St.  George  to  Taiyore ;  my  learned  friend 
argues  there  were  no  obstructions  made  to  hia 
piocee<Kngs  till  that  period ;  and  to  that  pe- 
riod I  acqoit  the  defendants  of  any  improper 
motives,  any  connection,  or  any  thing  tnat 
could  act  improperly  upon  their  minds.  There 
certainly  is  no  evidence  down  to  the  35th  of 
March,  that  tends  to  create  any  suspicion 
upon  their  conduct;  but  you  will  observe, 
i>efbre  ^at  asth  of  March,  in  the  letter  that 
yras  read,  the  great  object  of  the  nabob  was  to 
postpone,  delay^  protract,  and  put  off  the  re- 
stoiine  tfossession  of  the  country.  As  to  the 
fort  or  Tanjore,  he  had  no  objection  to  admit 
the  Company's  troops  to  gamson  the  fort  of 
Tanjore ;  bat  he  did  not  chuse  to  restore  the 
possession  of  the  country.  He  writes  letter 
after  letter,  with  all  the  civility  he  could,  and 
begging  all  that  he  could,  setting  forth  his 
own  merits  with  respect  to  the  Company, 
with  all  the  personal  address  lie  can  use  to 
lord  Pigot ;  and  desires  him,  by  all  means, 
to  postpone,  what  the  Company's  orders  lefC 
lord  I^got  no  authority  to  postpone, — ^^e  re- 
storation of  the  country,  ne  wanted  to  con- 
tinue another  year  in  possession  of.  That  was* 
meant  to  be  the  effect  of  his  letters :  a  great 
deal  turns  upon  the  sense  you  will  give  to  tha 
words,  ^  restoring  the  rajah  of  Tanjore/  Was 
it  complete  upon  the  14th  of  May  r  There  was 
in  Tanpore  a  garrison  of  the  Company's  forces; 
tfie  rajah  was  at  liberty;  but  to  oe  restored  to 
the  possession  of  his  country,  meant  to  be 
restored  to  the  revenues  of  his  country: 
which  meant  that  he  should  be  restored 
to  the  com  of  that  year,  as  the  com  there 
is  the*  revenue  of  the  country.  As  I  am 
now. upon  it,  let  me  take  notice  of  a  pas-i 
si^  in  this  letter  that  afforded  a  comment 
in  the  ingenious  defence,  which  I  did  not 
think  would  have  been  adopted.  The  Com- 
pany supposed  the  nabob  was  to  be  in  pos- 
session of  the  country;  and  they  say,  we 
must  suppose  that  the  plunder  of  the  place, 
and  the  receipt  of  the  revenue,  for  more  than 
two  years^  will  have  rendered  the  nabob  a 
very  considerable  gainer,  af\er  defraying  all 
the  charges  of  the  expedition. — Thedompany 
reasoned  very  rightly,  he  had  been  in  pos^ 
session  that  time:  he  was  in  possession  of 
Tanjore  in  Septcmner  1773  when  the  crop  was 
in  the  ground ;  he  had  the  crop  of  1774;  and 
he  had  the  crop  of  1775;— crop  and  revenue 
you  see  are  the  same  thing  in  that  country; 
he  had  received  the  crop  of  1774,  which  was 
not  sown  by  him ;  he  had  received  the  crop 
of  1775;  and  the  crop  of  1776  was  in  the 
ground,  when  the  Company's  orders  arrived ; 
uiat  crop  then  in  the  ground  was  the  great 
object  or  all  the  confiision  and  contention 
upon  the  part  of  the  nabob,  who  claimed  a 
right  to  reap  the  current  year's  crop,— that 
crop  which  was  to  be  reapea  in  1776 ;  though 
the  090iicil  undexTtood  it  otherwise. 


1199} 


19  6E0R0JS  in*    .     Prdcee^ngi  agabui  George  ahnUan    •   [12(0 


Good  God !  it  is  plain,  to  a  demonstratioDy 
how  they  intendco  it  at  that  date,  when  no 
influence  operated  upon  their  minds.  Upon 
the  35th  ot  March,  they  direct  lord  Pigot  to 
go  to  Tanjore ;  the  state  of  the  crop  making 
It  necessary  he  should  proceed  without  delay. 
Upon  the  24th  of  April,  upon  an  application 
made  by  the  rajah  to  lord  Pigot,  who  was  then 
at  Tanjore,  advice  of  which  he  sent  to  Mr. 
Stratlon  and  the  council,  they  send  him  a 
letter,  in  answer,  in  which  they  agree  to  buv 
of  tlie  r^ah,  upon  account  of  the  Company,  all 
the  crop  ol  the  year  beyond  the  necessary  quan- 
tity for  the  consumption  of  Taniore :  and  in 
'  those  two  instances,  they  have  decided  what 
tlicy  understood  to  be  putting  the  r^jah  jn  pos- 
session of  his  country,  that  it  includes  the  crop 
of  that  year,  which  the  nabob  had  no  colour 
or  pretence  or  right  to  continue,  and  which, 
right  or  wrong,  the  orders  of  the  Company 
ielx  them  no  latitude  to  ^ve  )iim ;  unless  it 
was  under  that  strange  idea  that  the  words 
*  for  more/  might  extend  to  keep  the  nabob 
in  possession  to  the ,  end  of  time.  If  lord 
Pigot  had  not  complied  with  those  orders  of 
the  Court  of  Directors,  he  would  have  deserved 
the  epithets  which  are  much  more  properly 
applied  to  other  persons.  That  was  not  all ; 
upon  the  39th  ofMay,  upon  the  examination 
or  Mr.  Benfield's  claims,  founded  upon  the  as- 
signments made  by  the  nabob,  that  affected 
the  current  crop  of  the  year,  the  council  then 
decide,  by  a  majority, — ^not  a  casting  vote  of 
lord  Pigot,  but  6  to  5, — they  decide  the  na- 
bob's assignments  inadmissible.  Most  un- 
doubtedly they  were  so,  with  respect  to  that 
.  crop  which  was  upon  the  ground ;  for,  from  Uie 
time  of  the  arrrival  of  the  Company's  orders, 
the  possession  of  the  nabob  was  to  cease ;  and 
the  possession  of  the  rajah  to  commence. 
The  nabob  by  writing,  by  negociations,  and  by 
gentle  methods,  thought  to  prevail  upon  lord 
Pieqjt  to  delav  the  time;  that  carried  it  up 
till  towards  the  time  of  harvest,  about  the 
beginning  of  March  or  April.  The  whole 
matter,  therefore,  that  produced  resistance, 
and  the  cause  of  all  the  mischief  that  ensued, 
arose  from  the  single  question  which  had 
been  agitated  and  determined  upon  the  39th 
of  May,  respecting  the  possession  of  the  coun- 
try of  Tanjore,  to  Be  restored  according  to  the 
tenor  of  the  Company's  orders,  which  in- 
cluded the  possession  of  the  crop  of  the  year 
1776,  which  belonged  to  the  rajah  and  not 
the  nabob. 

Mr.  Dunning,  It  belonged  to  the  crop  of 
what  was  sown  in  1775. 

Att.  Gen.  I  beg  your  pardon :  the  nabob 
had  reaoed  that. 

Mr.  punning.  In  1775,  Benfield  was  in 
possession  of  them;  and  was  deprived  of 
them  in  1776. 

Att,  Gen.  I  stated,  that  the  assignment  of 
Mr.  6enficld*s.  possession  of  the  com,  men- 
tions they  are  in  the  hands  of  his  officers ; 
and  that  they  say,  and  he  says,  and  only  says, 
they  were  tak^n  from  hi»  offic€r»  by  wapoys^ 


actings tmder  the  Compeny's  orfos.  Alls 
thaty^the  orders  the  seapoys  were  fumi^«4 
with,  if  any  vrere  given,-^he  is  called  upon  to 
point  out  any  pvt  which  was  the  property 
taken  fr^om  him  by  any  seapoys;  snd  th^ 
held  up  redress  to  him.  But  the  objects  oif 
complamt,  brought  the  SOth  of  Mar,  to  the 
Company,  are  the  assignments  made  by  the 
nabob,  and  taken  prior  to  March  1775,— the 
mortgages  upon  the  growing  crop  of  the 
ground, — the  other  article  of  claim,  was  ad- 
vances madQ  to  inhabitants,  in  August,  in 
September,  and  in  October  1775,  to  emble 
them  to  put  the  crop  in  the  ground,  throi^b 
the  medium  of  the  nabob's  son ;  for  which 
he  said  he  had  their  bonds,  which  were  not 
in  his  own,  but  in  somebody^s  hands  to  be  re- 
gistered ;  they  are  never  produced ;  the  other 
two  articles  of  assignments,  are  for  old  debti 
upon  the  Tanjore  revenues.  Observe  the  as- 
dgnments  bear  no  date :  and  they  are  never 
produced.  He  says  that  one  is  an  order  uoon 
Puttestah;  and  one  on  Papanashem;  vxy 
have  no  dates ;  the  money  advanced  to  the 
nabob  might  have  been  taken,  from  Benfiekl's 
story,  as  advanced  from  the  January  or  Fe* 
bruary  in  the  course  of  that  year ;  but  that  ii 
quite  another  question  *.  but  the  assinuiKot 
given  to  him,  by  way  of  mortgage,  could  not  be 
the  crop  of  com,  but  the  mortgage  of  the  last 
year's  grain ;  but  it  is  the  corn  then  in  the 
ground,  that  is  claimed ;  the  right  asserted,  is 
to  keep  tha^  crop,  in  consequence  of  the  right 
of  the  nabob  ;  which  was  afterwards  affifiDed 
by  the  vote  of  the  council,  no  doubt  when 
they  stated  what  the  council  resolved :  it  was 
not  contended  so  impudently  afterwards,  for 
they  say  in  one  of  their  letters,  they  only 
recommended,  they  don't  me^  to  enforce. 
Good  God!  If  they  only  meant  to  reooob 
mend,  and  not  to  enforce,  what  meant  that 
ungrounded  resolution  of  theirs, — the  first  of 
the  three  motions,  -made  upon  the  claims,— 
made  upon  Benfield's  claims,  that  the 
nabob  had.  a  ri»ht  to  the  crop  of  the 
year?  I  cannot  forget  that  question  «u 
put,  and  they  have  affirmed  it  without 
examination  or  evidence.  And  if  they  aA 
firmed  it,  it  must  be  by  the  argument  of 
Brooke  ;  but  upon  no  argument  that  I  can 
conceive,  should  they  have  affirmed  it  To 
follow  the  progress  of*  what  I  am  going  to 
st^te,  the  sole  cause  which  affected  the 
whole,  was  the  assertion  they  then  made, 
that  the  nabob  had  a  right  to  the  crop  in  the 
ground,  sovm  in  1775  (and  then  lord  Pi^ 
arrived,)  to  be  reaped  m  1776.  In  the  na- 
bob's letter,  when  he  talks  of  having  nu«ic 
assignments  of  that  crop,  he  makes  use  of  it 
as  an  argument  and  reason,  why  he  sliould  be 
allowed  to  reap  it.  He  is  c&Ued  upon,  befofo 
Benfield  appears  upon  the  stage,  to  explain 
what  these  assignments  were,  to  whom  mafle» 
and  to  give  an  account  of  the  receipts  and  dis- 
bursements upon  accomit  of  Tanjore,  to  she* 
how  the  account  stood ;   he  never  gives  that 

account,  but  talks  obscurely  and  oiysWri^^ 


ttDl] 


and  oth^rSfJbr  dq^onng  Lord  Pigoi. 


A.  D.  1779- 


[isoe 


bbeut  the  assi^menls.  though  the  question 
iras  put  to  hjm  by  the  council;  he  never 
uiswersy  in  subsequent  letters,  i^vhen  they' 
:all  upon  him  to  explain  them.  You  are  to 
udge,  gentlemen,  when  the  business  of  the> 
iabcl>  waa  brought  forward  in  the  shape  of 
Senfifild'a  claims,  why  Benfield's  claims 
iheuld  have  better  fortune  with  the  council 
haxL  the  application  to  the  same  effect  and 
)UFpo6e  urgcxl  by  the  nabob,  from  December 
4>  March,  whith  seems  to  have  had  no  effect, 
they  did  not  avail  in  the  mind  of  the  council ; 
ihey  did  not  prevent  the  orders  to  lord  Pigot, 
o  gjo  to  Tanjore,  the  state  of  the  crop  re^ 
luirmg  he  should  then  go ;  by  the  orders  of 
iie  SMh  of  May,  the  resolution  of  the 
xMUicil  then  was,  the  assimroents  of  the 
[Uibeb  to  Benfield  are  inadmissible, — how 
atfoe  Benfield  to  be  aeain  consulted?,  I 
itated  in  the  opening  all  I  could  hear  of 
Benfield;  with  this  confidence,  that  if  I 
nad  been  inaccurate  in  stating  it,  I  should 
lave  an  opportunity  of  being  set  right,  by  a 
^oeaMe  conversation  with  Benfield.  Can 
iny  body,  who  heard  me,  conceive  that  it 
ihould  not  occur  to  the  defendants  to  judge, 
ind  say,  whether  they  did  or  not  think 
^rdper  to.  examine  Benneld  ?  and  the  reason 
w\ij  he  is  not  produced  is  clear.  In  all  these 
iMceedinss,  during  the  whole  course  of  them, 
Benfield  netng  the  origin  of  all  this  evil; 
;he  disputes  springing  out  of  Benfield's  busi- 
M88 ;  tie  now  in  England ;  is  it  possible  to 
.megine,  if  Benfield  cDuld  have  cleared  up  the 
xiat-ter  favourably  for  the  defendants,  his  tes* 
imony  would  not  have  been  used  upon  this 
Mrcasion?  Mr.  Dunning  was  perfectr^  right, 
]o  sav  he  was  not  counsel  for  Benneld.  I 
staled  it  fairly;  and  ur^ed  the  necessity  of 
:alling  Benfield;  you  wiUJudge  how  iar  I 
Hit  it  justly;  I  have  not  put  it  unfairly. 
Benfield  is  exiating  here  in  England,  and  c»- 
jMible  of  being:  produced  to  be  (^led  as  a  wit^ 
Msa  if  they  pteased ;  and  he  is  not  called  to 
Htplain  one  of  these  transactions,  or  to  wipe 
iway  the  inference,  that  arises  from  so  enor- 
BMHifl  a  claim  as  950,000/.  starting  up  in  the 
person  of  Benfield,  and  that  claim  succeed- 
Qog  to  procure  not  only  a  recommendation  to 
\he  nyah  in  his  favour,  but  other  resolutions 
>f  the  hoard  in  his  &vour,  and  a  decision  in  fa- 
vour of  the  nabob ; — not  the  very  moment,  but 
ilmost  -directly  as  soon  as  a  majority  was  sot 
:ogetl^r,  to  procure  a  decbion  upon  uie 
labob's  claims,  which,  notwithstanding  direct 
iod  repeated  applications  from  the  nabob, 
before  they  had  constantly  refused !  When  I 
see  those  tacts  staring  me  so  broadly  in  the 
ii£^y  is  it  possible  for  me  to  entertain  so  very 
nilky  a  candour  upon  this  business,  as  not  to 
iiscover  the  fact?  or  is  it  possible  for  your 
minds  to  be  so  far  divested  of  all  reason^  as 
lol  to  conclude  it  was  the  easiest  of  all  pos- 
dble  matters  to  put  assignments  in  the  hands 
>f  Benfield  ?  If  they  prevailed,  they  dragged 
fciler  them  the  possession  of  the  revenues  tor 
mother  year;  they  had  that  efiect;  whether 
VOL  XXI. 


they  pushed  the  matter  afterwards,  was  not  of 
such  consequence ;  that  dropped  in  the  course 
of  the  argument;  L  don't  know  whether  the 
fact  is  so  or  not ;  I  believe  the  matter  rested, 
and  has  not  taken  effect  in  the  Tanjore  coun-' 
tnr ;  for  what  happened  afterwards  wais  the 
effect  of  the  events  not  foreseen  at  that  time. 
However  Mr.  Benfield's  claim  prevailed ;  they 
were  adopted,,  and  had  the  effect  with  them  to 
substantiate  the  nabob's  claims;  they  are  de« 
cided  directly,  Iw  a  resolution  the  nabob  had 
a  right  ana  tiue  to  the  revenues  of  that 
year.  To  the  resolutions  upon  the  head  of 
Benfield's  claims,  succeeds  tne  contest  about 
a  person  to  go  to  Tanjore. 

Give  me  leave  to  observe  upon  what  you 
have  heard  in  this  case,  upon  that  head,,  it  is 
very  extraordinary ;  \x\\  now  it  did  not  seem 
to  me'  to  be  in  the  compas^s  of  men  of  th«  - 
most  mischievous  imagination,  to  devise  a 
method  to  put  a  government  in  confusion, 
and  overturn  it  upon  so  simple  a  matter  as 
a  question  of  who  should  be  appointed  to  go 
to  Tanjore  to  attend  the  rajah  at  this  par- 
ticular moment.  I  before  stated,  thatitap* 
peared,  they  were  to  carry  recommendations 
to  the  rajah,  though  they  had  voted  it  was 
the  nabob's  right ;  so  long  as  they  could 
carry  it  civilly,  they  meant  to  do  it ;  there* 
fore,  say  they,  we  meant  to  send  a  retooi* 
mendation  to  the  rajah  to  shew  attention 
to  Mr.  Benfield :  if  they  stayed  so  k)ng  as  to  ' 
let  the  raiah  get  into  possesion  of  the  crop,  ' 
liable  only  to  representations  in  behalf  of 
just  claims  that  might  be  made  upon  it,  they 
Knew  there '  woula  be  an  answef  to  them  ; 
they  knew  there  would  be  no  possessioa 
taken,  that  the  gcain  might  be  disposed  o^ 
and  the  matter  would  run  into  length,  and 
might  terminate  afterwards  in  a  reference  to 
the  directors  at  home.  Their  object  was  tht 
keeping*  possession  of  the  rajali's  country  2 
to  conduct  such  a  scheme,  therefore,  it  was 
essentially  necessary,  tliat  they  should  endea« 
vour  to  send  a  man  of  confidence,  to  talk 
proper  language  to  the  rajah;  as  that  was  a 
matter  upon  which  the  whole  hinged,  whe* 
ther  the  orders  of  the  Company  should  b^ 
carried  into  complete  execution,  or  not ;  whe- 
ther the  matter  should  be  with  the  rajah  or 
the  nabob.  As  to  the  crop  of  1770,  tho 
whole  of  it,  they  thousht^  was  perfectly  de- 
pendent upon  that:  Sieir  object  therefore  - 
was  to  send  col.  Stuart,  and  to  prevent  Mr, 
Rossel  from  joine.  As  to  col.  Stuart's  goin^ 
my  learned  triend  sug^sted  very  gocra  rea- 
sons and  made  very  ingenious  comments- 
upon  col.  Stuart's  lettef^  respecting  his  rea- 
sons, why  he  should^  prefer  tne  command  at 
Tanjore  to  Vellore,  and  referred  to  the  ima^ 
gined  dangers,  hinted  at  in  one  of  the  mi- 
nutes, to  the  supposed  designs  of  the  French 
in  concurrence  with  Hyder  Aly,  the  rajah  of 
Mysore.  If  they  had  had  better  to  have 
given  for  adopting  col.  Stuart's  object  of 
going  to  Tanjore,  they  would  have  given  • 
Siem ;  unfortunately  for  those  reasons  suid- 

4  H  . 


itos^ 


19  GEORGE  III.  Proceedings  againsi  George  SiraUon       [19H 


my  learned  friend'f  obsenrations,  the  reasons 
they  adopted  were  false;  there  was  no  alarm 
from  the  French,  the  true  reasons  were  of 
another  kind,  there  was  not  any  intimation  of 
Tanjore  being  a  fosX  of  honour,  and  the  most 
important  situation  in  that  respect ;  yet  that 
was  the  argument  urged  upon  the  other  side. 
If  this  importance  were  true,  so  far  as  it  re- 
garded the  defendants  in  a  political  sense, 
jt  was  not  in  a  military  sense  so  important  as 
Vellore;  but  the  other  sort  of  importance 
.was  quite  of  another  kind ;  there  is  no  doubt, 
tmdcr  their  command  at  Vellore,  there  were 
600  Europeans,  at  Tanjore  only  100.  Col. 
Stuart  states^  as  second  ui  command,  he  was 
entitled  to  the  post  of  Tanjore  if  that  was  not 
supplied  by  sir  R.  Fletcher  himself^  inti- 
mating that  which  never  took  ^ffect, — what 
he  thought,— that  they  had  a  right  to  send 
more  troops  there.  What  necessity  was 
there  for  sending  him  there,  whilst  t^e  force 
at  Tanjore  was  so  uneaual  to  the  command 
•f  ^  officer  of  col.  atuart's  rank?  sir  R. 
PJetcher*s  reason  is  not  so  ^-ell  applied  upon 
this  case,  as  my  learned  friend's,  which  was 
extremely  ingenious ;  but  sir  R.  Fletcher's  is 
,  not  among  the  nature  of  those  to  which  we 
ascribe  the  term  ingenuity,  it  is  only  finding 
a  false  "reason  when  an  ingenious  one  could 
not  occur  to  liim  :  sir  R.  itletcher  reasons  in 
this  manner;  he  wishes  to  have  col.  Stuart's 
sentiments  regarding  the  state  of  the  fort 
and  country  otTanjore,  with  respect  to  their 
defence;  particularly  at  a  time  when  there 
IS  intelligence  of  armaments  coming  from 
France.  Lord  Pigot  answers  it,  and  says  he 
should  be  elad  to  have  col.  Stuart's  opinion 
upon  the  defence  of  Tanjore ;  he  wisned  to 
have  an  officer  of  his  experience  to  report 
what  the  state  of  the  defences  was ;  but  that 
imagination  of  an  alarm  from  the  French, — 
which  was  only  an  imagination  in  the  first 
place,---was  deserted,  aiid  all  the  rest  of  the 
reasoning  goes  upon  the  recommendations  of 
the  commander  m  chief.  One  of  the  gentle- 
men takes  notice,  that  it  is  the  Company's 
orders  attention  should  be  paid  to  tne  re- 
commendations of  the  commander  in  chief; 
however,  it  was  determined  Mr.  Russel  was 
not.  to  go.  And  it  was  stated  to  you  with 
great  candour, — my  learned  friend  feels  ob- 
servations of  that  kind,  which  are  only  to  be 
conducted  with  the  utmost  degree  of  candour, 
•—that  tjiere  was  no  ground  for  lord  PigoVs 
pressing  for  him  to  go  only  for  a  few  dayf ; 
those  reasons  have  been  explained  to  yofi ; 
and  not  for  the  reasons  that  occurred  to  me 
and  my  ingenuity  only,  but  the  effect  it 
would  nave  upon  the  rajah  from  bein^  umn- 
formed  and  prejudiced,  was  siiggestetf  by  my 
learned  friend,  and  some  other  reasons  of  a 
private  nature,  why  it  was  expedient  for  Mr. 
Russel  to  go  to  Tanjore.  Now,  gentlemen, 
;after  all  that  has  been  said  upon  this  subject, 
perhaps  I  do  not  hazard  a  very  improper  con- 
jecture, or  a  M'ild  one,  if  I  concluae,  posi- 
tjivaly  and  certainly^  that  you  may,  laany  of 


you,  be  of  opinion  that  all  that  has  happeoed 
at  that  place,  at  the  time  it  did  hap^yeA,  cooM 
not  have  happened  without  the  iiifioence  of 
those  gentlemen,  and*  inducements  operatiDg 
upon  the  one  side  or  the  other,— I  ask  no 
more.  I  think  it  probable  you  may  be  of 
opinion,  that  the  consideration  of  moDey  may 
have  weighed  upon  this  business,  on  one  sde 
or  the  other.  As  to  ideas  of  imputatioD  thit 
the  members  of  the  council  mi^ht  be  sop- 
posed  to  have  entertained,  and  the  inference 
the^  might  draw  from  Mr.  RusseFs  going  to 
Tanjore,  you  will  judge  how  they  are  loiid- 
ed,  from  the  conduct  oi'  both  sides.  I  offered 
Mr.  Monckton,  the  intimate  friend  of  kid 
Pigot,  his  son  in  law,  acquainted  with  e^ 
transaction,  even  the  most  secret  that  could 
be  discovered  by  his  papers,  who  pcribnned 
the  ^rt  of  executor, — I  offered  him,  upon  Ae 
most  public  examinations  on  that  head,  Is 
shew  lord  Pigot  was  in  that  part  of  his  life, 
as  well  as  every  other,  superior  to  all  things 
of  that  kind,  where  his  duty  was  concerned. 

Upon  the  other  side,  they  did  not  pTodnct 
Mr.  fienfield.  Now  I  repeat  it  again,  I  camoC 
conceive  it  possible  for  any  man  to  iinapK, 
that  in  this  case,  connected  as  Benfida  is 
with  it,  Mr.  Benfield  should  not  be  called 
upon  to  give  evidence,  if  they  had  thooriitil 
expedient  for  Mr.  Benfield  to  have  stood  the 
examination. 

Mr.  Dunning.  My  learned  friend  seems 
surprised,  that  I  did  not  call  Mr.  Bcnfidd. 
If  Mr.  Benfield  bad  been  here,  I  should  haw 
called  him.  Mr.  Benfield  is  not  here:  itii 
impossible  for  human  ingenuity  to  find  «* 
from  the  information,  any^thing  conceninj 
Benfield.  I  myself  confess  my  idea  m  the 
course  of  the  business,  in  a  charge  like  this 
where  neither  the  name  of  Benfield  appcan, 
nor  his  claims,  directly  or  indirectly,  MJ 
charges  of  corruption,  of  any  sort  or  kind 
whatsoever,  against  him,  it  would  no  fun 
occur  to  me  to  call  upon  Mr.  Benfield  to  be 
produced  as  a  witness,  than  to  send  for  the 
nabob. 

Court,  To  be  sure  there  is  nothing  in  the 
information  that  imports  it. 

Att  .Gen,  Is  there  nothing  in  the  infbn* 
tion  that  leads  to  the  name  of  BsnfieM } 

Court.    Not  to  a  charge  of  comiptioo. 

Att.  Gen.  Is  there  nothing  that  leads  to  if? 

Mr.  Dunning.  There  is  no  such  charp* 
the  information. 

Att.  Gen.  To  restore  Tanjore,  is  to  rcsW« 
the  revenues  of  it ;  to  keep  possession  ofT»*, 
jore,  is  to  keep  possession  of  the  revenues  «• 
Tanjore ;  they  are  convertible  terms.  It  * 
impressed  upon  my  own  mind,  whoever  eii- 
mines  these  facts  (you  see  we  have  upon  w 
sides  carefully  read  these  proofs)  must  have 
been  aware  how  material  it  was  to  the  firio* 
conduct  of  this  business,  to  shew  the  l^gf^ 
or  excuse  upon  the  one  side  or  the  other  ;'aBS 
to  shew  the  conduct  of  Mr.  Benfieki,  fro* 
which  all  the  subsequent  matters  origioaie. 
If  they  w«r«  not,  I  am  the  idlest  of  aHidii 


i205] 


and  otherSfJbr' deposing  Lord  PigoL 


A.  D.  1779. 


ri206 


reasonen,  and  deserve  your  reprehension.  If 
you  cannot  find  an  analogy,  between  the 
claims  of  Benfield  and  the  subsequent  con- 
duct of  these  defendants,  I  have  been  labour- 
ing idly  indeed,  and  to  little  purpose;  and 
must  beg  your  pardon.  But  if  you  perceive, 
as  you  must,  throu^out  the  whole  of  the 
l)usiDess,  that  which  in  the  information  is 
strictly  within  the  letter  of  the  charge,  what 
they  did  to  obstruct  m^r  lord  Pigot^  when  he 
was  proceeding  to  put  into  execution  the  or- 
ders pf  the  Company,  'was  done  in  tlic  in- 
stance I  mentioned; — ^Mr.  Benfield  asserting 
these '  claims,  and  the  defendants  permitting 
them  to  tiake  place  in*the  prosecution  of  some 
scheme  ;-riii  making  it  a  point  to  send  some 
particular  person  to  Tanjore; — I  have  been 
talking  improperly  to  vou,  when  I  say  that 
was  the  whole  of  the  charge;  the  charge  in 
the  information,  is  assaidt  and  imprisonment 
of  lonl  Pi^t,  qualified  with  these  observa- 
tions, that  It  was  done  to  obstruct  lord  Pigot 
in  .doing  what  he  wajs  commissioned  to  exe- 
CMte :  from  what  motives,  with  what  inten- 
tion, what  the  principles  were  operating  upon 
their  minds,  it  i^  said  I  am  going  out  ot  the 
charge,  when  I  am  statins  that.  Though 
cf^rniption  is  not  stated,  if  I  prove  a  criminal 
act  is  done,  and  the  mind  in  doin^  that  was 
acted  upon  by  corrupt  motives,  it  is  a  great 
aggravation.  And,  though  it  is  not  distinctly 
charged  in  the  information,  the  motives  with 
vhic^  the  act&of  violence,  charged  to  be  com- 
mitted by  the  defendants,  were  done,  is  a 
matter  for  your  considieration.  It  undoubtedly 
viU  weigh  much,  both,  in  judging  the  nature 
of  the  cnme,  and  the  defence,  and  the  nature 
of  the  punishment  to  be  rnilicted  upon  them. 
I  therefore  beg  you  to  bear  in  mind  the  object 
of  lord  PieoVs  commission,  how  that  was  ob- 
structed, first  by  the  nabob's  interposition  in- 
cffecUially,  aAerwardsefiectually  by  the  inter- 
i>09ition  of  Benfield,  of  whom  so  much  has 
been  said,  whom  the  defendants,  if  they 
thought  his  claims  proper,  did  not  think  pror 
per  to  call.  Benfield  is  in  a  situation  that  he 
might  have  been  produced ;  that  is  all  I  state ; 
ana  I  leave  it  to  you  to  judge,  and  to  dnaw  an 
inference  IVom  his  not  bein^  produced. 

.  Matters  have  been  gone  mto  in  this  cause, 
of  which  I  don't  now.  go  into  the  detail,  of 
facts,  and  the  xuurative  which  was  stated  of 
4]uestioBis  which  surose  in  the  month  of  May 
1770.  and  from  that  time  downwards,  in 
which  debates  arose  upon  the  extent  of  the 
president's  authority.  Upon  that,  let  me  beg 
of  you  in  the  first  place  to  recollect,  with  re- 
gard to  the  fact,  it  is  said,  what  were  the 
authorities  lord  Pigot  claimed  ?  It  is  said,  in 
one  instance,  he  claimed  a  power  of  pqttins 
a  previous  ques^on;  in  another,  he  objected 
to  any  other  person's  putting  a  previous  ques- 
tion. It  certainly  was  new,  as  lord  Pigot  said; 
add  J  think  it  is  a  Uttle  incorrect,  to  state  lord 
Pigot  himself  had  given  an  example  of  it. 
Jjord  Pigot  siud,  at  the  meatitiiz  on  the  J  4th 
pf  June;  and  insisted,  he  hdd  a  right  to  put 


his  question  before  Mr.  Mackav.  Mr.  !Mackay 
insisted  he  had  a  right  to  put  his  question  be'<> 
fore  my  lord  Pigot,  in  consequence  of  an  ad- 
journment to  take  into  consideration  som.« 
motions  he  had  to  make,  not  upon  a  specific 
question  stated,  but  only  upon  an  intimation 
in  the  minutes  by  Mr.  Mackay,  that  he  had  a 
question  to  put. 

Mr.  Dunning.  What  I  alluded  to,  was 
upon  Mr.  Mackay's  first  motion,  after  tho 
motion  was  made  upon  what  lord  Pigot  pro- 
poses. 

Att.  Gen.  We  are  exactly  upon  the  sama 
point ;  mind  if  I  dqn't  state  it.  Lord  Pigot 
desired  he  might  put  his  question  first ;  itlr. 
Mackay  says, -no;  I  have  a  right  to  put  my 
question  first :  then  lord  Pigot  said,  tiie  only 
way  to  settle  this,  is  to  put  me  question,  whe- 
ther Mr.  Mackay's  Question  shall  be  put,  to 
determine  whether  Mr.  Mackay  or  lora  Pigot 
had  a  right  to  put  the  question. 

Mr.  Sunning.    Is  not  that  in  the  most  ex- 
press term»  a  previous  question  ? 
.   Att.  Gen.     That  is  in  terms  a  previous 
question,  but  it  turns  upon  another  circum- 
stance. 

Court.  Nothing  turns  upon  that;  before 
they  had  done,  he  m  terms  refuses  to  put  th« 
question. 

Att,  Gen.  The  observation  merely  applies 
to  this. 

Court.    But  it.  does  not  require  exactness. 

Att.  Gen.  I  don't  mean  to  state,  that  he 
would  not  put  a  previous  question  as  totally 
new  :  but  it  is  a  little  material  to  state  that  at 
the  time  he  objected  to  sir  II.  Fletcher's  pre- 
vious question,  not  an  instance  of  that  sort 
had  occurred  to  him.  Let  me  appeal  to  lord 
Pigot' s  understanding  upon  the  subject ;  I  am 
certain  he.  would  not  have  stated  a  thing  to 
be  new  in  a  settlement  where  he  had  dono 
the  thing  himself  before.  This  was  a  question 
upon  a  priority  between  two  questions;  on 
the  mode  of  stating  it,  it  was  upon  this  point, 
whether  Mr.  Mackay's  questibn  should  be  put 
before  the  president's,  so  it  was  understoou  at 
the  time  by  the  gentlemen.  Lord  Pigot  how- 
ever, it  is  said,  objected  to  putting  a  previous 
question.  *  Now  I  really  cannot  conceive  this 
was  a  dangerous  or.  an  alarming  exercise  of 
power  upon  the  part  of  lord  Pigot;  as  a  ma- 
jority could  not  have  much  dimculty  to  en- 
counter a  previous  question,  lord  Pigot  did 
not  gain  much  by  asserting  it  was  a  novelty.; 
they  would  have  immediately  put  tiie  other 
question.  I  don't  conceive  that  the  assertion 
upon  Uie  part  of  lord  Pigot,  that  a '  previous 
question  was  new  in  the  settlement,  and  that 
he  would  not  put  a  previous  question,  was 
such  an  innovation  and  usurpation  upon  \hi$ 
part  of  him,  lord  Pigot,  as  merited  deprivation, 
imprisonment,  and .  death :  less  might,  have 
done ;  a  less  degree  of  censure  was  required 
for  such  an  instance.  * 

Then  lord  Pigot  makes  other  assertions;  he 
asserts,  too,  that  he  has  a  right  to  open  the 
buftis^ess;  be  stales  what  X  l^lieve  to  be  UBr 


124S] 


19  GEORGB  III.         Proceedings  againxt  George  StraU^         [1244 


where  sevenl  of  the  roost  respectable  people 
of  the  settlement  have  their  country  houses, 
and  where  the  nabob  has  several  houses,  one 
of  which  was  then  used  and  occupied  by  Mr. 
Monckton,  who  married  one  of  lord  Pigot's 
daughters.     And   these    deponents,  further 
say,  that  at  the  time  of  sending  the- said  lord 
Pigot  to  the  Mount,  orders  in  writing  were 
ffiven  to  major   Home  there,  to  shew  his 
lordshi()  every  mark  of  respect  and  attention,, 
and  which  instrucUon  was  conceived  in  the 
following  words:  viz.  **  It  is  needless   to 
**  suggest  to  a  man  of  your  feeling,  that  lord 
'<  Pigot  is  to  be  treated  ivith  every  mark  of 
**  attention  and  respect,  suited  to  the  situation 
^  which  the  present  exigency  of  afibirs  makes 
^  necessary."    And  these  deponents  say,  that 
tne  said  nuyor  Home,  in  bis  letter  to  the 
board,  on  the  35th  of  Aueust,  1776,  informed 
them^that  sir  Edward  Hughes,  Mr.  Russel, 
Mr.  Dalrymple,  Mr.  Lathom,  and  others,  had 
visited  his  lordship,  and  that  he  expressed  a 
particular  satisfaction  at  being  under  major 
Hornets  charge,  as  he  was  to  be  under  no 
restraint  at  sul,  and  that  he  (nu^or  Home) 
would  pay  his  lordsliip  every  attention  and 
mark  ot  respect  in  his  power,  or  to  that  effect. 
And  these  deponents   believe,  that  on  the 
said  35  th  of  AiLgust,  (the  day  after  the  retnoval 
of  lord  Pigot),  be  was  visited  at  the  Mount  by 
the  said  Messrs.  Russel,  Dalrymple,  Lathom, 
Monckton,  sir  Edward  Hughes,  Mr.  L'Epine, 
his  secretary,  and  ^eneralfy  by  all  of  tnose 
that  used  to  visit  him  at  the  Fort-house,  who 
chose  to  go  to  the  Mount.  And  these  deponents, 
each  speaking  for  himself,  severally  say,  that 
on  the  evening  of  the  34th  of  August,  afier 
lord  Pigot  ha(f  been  removed  to  Uie  Mount, 
Mr.  Hussel  (one  of  the  members  who  had 
joined  lord  rigot  in  suspending  these  depo- 
nents, with  sir  Robert  Fletcher,  and  Messrs. 
Jourdan  and  Palmer),  having  been  found  at 
the  main  guard,  then  under  arras,  inviting  the 
troops  ana  others  to  make  resistance,  and  it 
being  also  apprehended  that  lord  Pigot  and 
his  triends  would  use  violent  measures  to 
regain  the  possession  of  the  Fort,  it  was  on 
the  35th  of  August,  in  order  to  prevent  any 
such  attempts,  and  thereby  prevent  the  blood- 
shed  which  such  attempt  would  probably  have 
occasioned,  resolved,  that  a  letter  should  be 
written   tu   major   Home,    informing    him 
thereof,  and  requesting  him  to  prevent  any 
papers  being  conveyed  to  lord  Pigot,  to  be 
signed  by  him,  and  closing  with  the  following 
passage :  viz.  ^  As  your  last  resource,  in  case 
«<  of  any 'attempt  to  rescue  lord  Pigol^  his  life 
^  must  answer  for  it,  and  this  you  are  to 
**  signify  to  him.''      And  these'  deponents 
severally  say,  that  the  words  above  referred  to, 
were  proposed  and  added  by,  colonel  Stuart,  aft 
likely  to  deter  and  prevent  mischievous  and 
dangerous  attempts,  whereby,  not  only  the  life 
of  lord  Pigot,  but  the  lives  of  other  persons, 
woidd  probably  have  been  endan^erea,  if  not 
lost;  and  that  upon  their  being  ust  proposed 
by  ^e  said  col.  Stuart;  they  were  objected  to 


I 


by  these  deponents,  or  some  of  them,  but  were 
aAerwards  submitted  to,  in  deference  to  his 
opinion,  and  in  the  expectation  and  belief 
that  they  would  tend  to  prevent  the  friends 
of  lord  Pigot  from  attempting  his  rescue,  by 
which  attempts,  not  only  the  person  of  his 
lordship,  but  the  lives  of  others  would  hav« 
been  endangered;  and  on  the  said  colonel 
Stuart's  4U-sing  that  he  could  not,  without 
some  such  t  nreat,  answer  for  the  consequences, 
or  to   tltat  effect      And    these   dqionenta 
further  severally  say,  they  have  l)een   in- 
formed, and  believe,  that  the  said  major  Home^ 
immediately  on  the  receipt  of  the  said  letter, 
shewed  and  product  it  to  the  said  lord  Pigot, 
and  several  of  his  friends,  some -of  whom 
endeavoured  to  misrepresent  the  intention  of 
the  said  letter,  which  these  deponents  being 
informed  of  two  or  three  days  afterwards, 
thev  not  only  took  proper  means  for  refuting 
such  insinuations  at  Madras,  but  they  also 
immediately  wrote  to  the  governor  general, 
and  council  of  Bengal,  to  prevent  the  de- 
sign of  such  insinuations  firom  taking  effect, 
and  in  their  letter,  explaining  their  motives 
for  using  the  expression  above  referred  to. 
And   these   deponents,  each    speaking  for 
himself,  severally  say,  that  on  the  27th  of 
August  1776,  the  board,  taking  into  considen- 
tion  the  many  evils  which  misht  arise,  from 
the   violent  disposition  manifested  by  lord 
Pigpt's  friends,  and  their  indefatigable  pur- 
suits in  attempting  to  sow  disaffection,  as  well 
in  the  civil  as  the  military  servants  of  the 
Company,  and  the  fortress  of  ChL^eput, 
about    36    miles   firom    Fort    St.    Ueorge, 
appearing  a  more  elisible  place  for  lord  Pigot*s 
residence^  as  in  his  being  removed  at  such  a 
distance  from  Fort  St.  George,  as  would  render 
any  attempts  to  disturb  the  public  tranquillity 
more  difficult,  and  there  bein^  no  objection  to 
the  place  on  account  of  its  situationjn  point 
of  health ;  it  was  on  the  proposal  and  recom- 
mendation of  the  said  col.  Stuart,  the  unani- 
mous opinion  of  the  board,  for  the  above 
reasons,  tiiat  lord  Pigot  should  as  soon  as 
possible  be  removed  to  Chingleput,  and  in 
order  that  his  lordship  miebt  meet  every 
possible  mark  of  respect  and  attention,  and 
for  his  better  accommodation  during  his  re»- 
dence  there,  it  was  agreed,  that  a  field  oiEcer 
should  beaopointedtothecommandof  thaigar- 
rison,  and  tnereuponit  was  resolved  that  major 
William  Cooke  should  be  appointed  to  the  com- 
mand of  Chingleput,  and  a  letter  was  written  to 
liim  directing  him  to  proceed  thither,  to  take 
upon  him  the  command  of  that  fort  as  soon  as 
possible.    And  these  deponents  iiirtlier  say, 
that  in  consequence  of  the  above  resohitioiis  a 
letter  was  written,  by  the  council,  to  ooL 
Stuart,  impowering  him  to  take  any  further 
measures  he  might  judge  necessary  for  the 
security  of  lord  PigoVs  person,  and  informine 
him  they  were  extremely  desirous  to  avoia 
every  chance,  either  of  public  disturbances, 
or  risk  to  lord  Pigot's  life.    And  these  depo- 
nents severally  say^  that  Chibgleput  is  •»- 


12*5] 


and  otherSyJbr  deposing  Lord  Pigot, 


A.  D.  1779. 


[1240 


teemed  the  most  healthy  place  in  the  Car-  I 
natic,  and  that  it  was  mtended  lord  Pigot 
should  be  removed  there,  and  not  to  Gingee 
or  any  other  place.      And  these  deponents 
further  say,  that  lord  Pigot  having  retused  to 
submit  to  the  intended  removal  from  the 
Mount  to  Chinglcput,  these  deponents  toge- 
ther with  the  said  other  members  of  the 
council,  on  the  28th  day  of  the  same  month 
of  August  (which  was  the  fourth  day  afler  his 
lordship*s  suspension)  wrote  a  letter  to  his 
lordship,  offering  him  the  choice  of  any  settle- 
ment on  the  coast,  where  there  was  a  chief 
and  council,  provided  he  would  pledge  his 
word  of  honour  to  remain  quiet,  witlim  the 
boimds  of  such  settlement,  until  the  Com- 
pany's pleasure,  touching  his  and  their  con- 
duct respectively,  should  be  known,  and  that, 
if  he  consented  to  such  proposal,  they  would 
order  the  best  house  in  such  settlement,  with 
every  necessary  to  be  prepared  for  his  recep- 
tion at   the  Company's  expence,  and  that 
every  respect  and  attention  snould  be  paid  to 
his  person,  or  if  his  lordship  should  prefer 
eml»rking  for  Europe  in  one  of  the  Com- 
panv's  ships,  they  would  order  every  accom- 
modation m  their  power.    And  these  depo- 
nents further  say,  tney  have  been  informed, 
and  believe,  that  lord  Pigot  received  the  said 
letter  whilst  at  fable  with  sir  Edward  Hughes, 
Mrs.  Monckton,  and  others,  and  afler  reading 
it  publicly  to  the  company  present,  he  deli- 
vered it  to  Mrs.  Monckton,  but  never  returned 
axky  answer  to  the  said  letter.    And  these  de- 
ponents further  severally  say,  that  during  the 
continuance  of  the  said  lord  Pigot  at  the 
Mount,  thes^  deponents  were  from  time  to 
time  informed,  and  believed,  that  lord  Pigot 
declared  repeatedly,  that  if  he  could  get  re- 
established   in    the  government,  he  would 
hang  colonel  Stuart,  colonel  Eidingtoun,  cap- 
tidn  Lysaught.  these  deponents,  ai^  all  those 
who  hiad  acted  in  hb  suspension.    And  these 
deponents   ^rther   severally  say,  that   the 
conduct  of  these  deponents,  and  the  other 
members  of  the  government,  towards  lord 
Pigot,  subsequent  to  his  suspension  and  re- 
moval, was  such,  that  his  loraship  was  on  all 
occasions  (so  far  from  being  laid  under  unne- 
cessary hardships  or  inconveniencies)  tr^ted 
with  every  degree  of  indulgence  that  was  by 
any  means  consistent  with  the  end  which  the 
board  had  in  view,  by  the  restraint  put  on 
him,  viz.  the  prevention  of  the  bad  and  mis- 
chievous  consequences   which   these  depo- 
nents believe  would  have  attended  his  return 
to  the  fort.    And  these  dep6nents  fbrther 
severally  say,  that  the  said  lord  Pigot  was 
under  no  restraint  whatever,  either  as  to  walk- 
ing or'  riding,  but  that  of  not  coming  into 
Fort  St.  George,  and  that  to  prevent  this,  it 
was  necessary  that  major  Home  should  ob- 
serve, that  he  did  not  break  through  this 
necessary  restraint;  but  that  in  all  ottier  re- 
spects his  lordship  was  at  liberty,  and  that 
be  visited  and  was  visked,  when,  by  whom 
mod  wherever  he  pleased,  and  ^m>  all  the 


pleasures  and  amusements  that  the  country 
afforded.  And  these  deponents,  each  seve- 
rally speaking  for  himself,  say,  that  at  the 
time  tney  took  upon  themselves  the  admi- 
nistr:\tion  of  the  affairs  of  the  settlement  of' 
Fort  St.  George,  they  did  then  verily  believe 
that,  by  the  nature  of  their  commission,  and 
the  tenor  of  the  Company's  orders,  relative 
to  the  powers  of  the  president  and  council, 
they,  as  a  majority  of  council,  had  a  complete 
power  so  to  do ;  and  that  the  imprisonment 
of  lord  Pigot  was  a  step  absolutely  neces- 
sary to  give  eflcct  to  the  power,  which  they 
then  conceived  to  be  vested  in  the  majority 
of  the  council,  independent  of  the  president, 
and  as  such  justifiable  and  legal  And  these 
deponents,  each  severally  speakine  for  him- 
self, say,  that  they  did  not,  in  anv  of  the  trans- 
actions, which  are  the  foundation  of  this 
prosecuUon,  act  in  an^  instance  with  a  view 
to  assume  powers  which  did  not  belong  to 
them,  or  which,  at  the  time,  they  did  not 
conceive  to  belong  to  them,  or  with  any 
view  to  promote  their  o^vn  private  interest ; 
but  that  in  eveiy  step  they  took  in  the 
course  of  those  transactions,  they  did,  to 
the  best  of  their  knowledge,  act  the  part 
of  feithful  servants  to  the  Company,  and 
for  the  interest,  and  in  conformity  to  the 
orders  thereof;  and  that  conceiving,  as  they 
then  did,  of  their  own  powers  and  duties,  and 
the  tendency  of  lord  Pigot's  acts,  they  should 
not  have  discharged  their  dvLiy  to  the  Com- 
pany, if  they  had  acted  otherwise^  or  forborn 
to  act  as  they  did. 


■*•« 


Toe  king,  upon  the  Information  of  his 

AlTOttNEY    GeKEHAL, 
GBOKOE       STRATtON,       HENRT      BbOOKE^ 

Charles    Floter,     and    Georcr 
.  Mackay,  Esqrs. 

Richard'  Joseph  Sullivan,  of  St.  JamesV 
street,  in  the  parish  of  St  James,  West- 
minster, in  the  county  of  Middlesex,  esq. 
maketh  oath  and  saith.  That  he  hath  been 
in  the  civil  service  of  the  Eastrlndia  Com« 
pany,  at  Madras,  ever  since  the  year  1769; 
and  that  from  the  vear  1775  to  1777,  he  this 
deponent  was,  and  acted  as  secretarv  in  the 
muitary  department  there ;  and  this  deponent 
is  still  m  the  service  of  the  said  Company. 
And  this  deponent  further  saith,  that  tlie  de« 
fendants  and  the  other  members  of  the  coun- 
cil, who  differed  in  opinion  with  lord  Pigot  in 
177^,  did  at  all  times,  when  this  deponent 
was  present  in  counc\l,  deport  themselves 
with  decency,  and  with  proper  respect  to  the 
president;  and  that  they  also  by  argiimcnts. 
persuasions,  and  remonstrances,  endeavoured 
to  dissuade  lord  Pigot  from  persevering  in 
what  they  deemed  his  arbitrary  and  illegal 
doctrines.  And  this  deponent  further  saith, 
that  ther«  was  so  summons  s^t  to  sir  Ko- 


1247] 


19  GEORGE  m.         Proceeditigs  agmust  George  Urattom        [lt48 


bert  Fletcher,  Messrs.  Floyer,  Palmer,  Jour- 
dan,  and  Mackay,  to  attend  council  on  the 
afternoon  of  the  iSd  of  August,  1776 ;  and 
tluit  the  said  lord  Pigot,  wiSi  Claud  Russel, 
Alexander  Dalrymple,  John  Maxwell  Stone, 
and  Richard  Latlioin,esqrs.  about  four  o'clock 
in  the  aflemoon  of  the  said  S3d  of  August, 
1776,  did  assemble  and  act  as  if  thevwere 
the  government.    AAd  this  deponent  further 
•aitl^  that  although  Mr.  Lathom  had  been 
about  twelve  days  at  the   presidency,   and 
many  councils  bad  been  held  after  bus  ar- 
rival, yet  that  he  was  onlv  called  for  the  first 
time  to  attend  the  council,  on  the  93d  of  Au- 
sust,  in  the  morning.    And  this  deponent 
further  saith,  that  in  consequence  of  orders 
received  by  this  deponent  at  the  said  council, 
held  on  the  said  23d  day  of  August,  in  the 
afternoon,  he,  this  deponent,  about  the  hour 
of  five  o*clock  in  the  same  afternoon,  issued 
letters  of  suspension  to  Charles  Floyer,  Arch- 
dale  Palmer,  Francis  Jourdail,  and  Geor^ 
Mackay,  and  orders  were  given,  by  the  said 
lord  Pigot,  to  captain  Wood,  the  town  m^or, 
to  serve  an  order  of  arrest  on  sir  Robert  Flet- 
cher ;  and  the  said  lord  Pigot,  on  the  sapae 
afternoon,  gave  this  deponent,  as  judee  ad- 
vocate, orders  to  prepare  for  trying  sir  Robert 
Fletcher  by  a  court  martial,  as  speedily  as 
possible.    And  this  deponent  furtner  saith, 
that  he,  this  deponent,  and  many  other  per- 
sons, both  civil  and  military,  in  the  settle- 
ment, did  look  upon  the  suspension  of  the 
said  Georee  Stratton  and  Henry  Brooke,  on 
the  28d  of  August,  1776,  as  an  unconstitu- 
tional and  oppressive  measure ;  and  that  by 
such  acts,  the  settlement  and  government  of 
F<Ht  St.  George  mixht  be  involved  in  a  state 
of  anarchy.    And  tnat  this  deponent,  and  by 
far  the  greater  number  of  the  Company's  ser- 
vants, civil  and  military,  in  the  settlement, 
whom  this  dcpofient  conversed  with,   did 
firmly  believe  thegoiemment  to  be  vest^ 
in  a  majority  of  the  council,  wheUier  the  said 
lord  Pigot  was  present  or  not.    And  tiiis  de- 
ponent further  saith,  that  after  a  majority  of 
the  council  had  delivered  their  joint  minute  in 
council  on  the  17th  of  June,  1776,  wherein 
they  declared,  "  That  they  meant  to  do  no 
**  more  on  the  Tanjore  claims  than  to  reoom- 
*'  mend  to  the  ngah  to  see  that  justice  be 
''  done,  leaving  the  manner  and  time  to  him- 
**  self,  and  that  they  had  not  an  idea  t&at 
^  that  government  ought  to  go  further  with- 
*'  out  orders  from  their  superiors," — no  fur- 
ther debate  or  altercation,  touching  the  said 
claims,  were  had  in  council  to  the  ^st  of  this 
deponent^s  recollection  and  belief,  during  the 
time  of[  the  said  lord  Pigofs  government 
And  this  deponent  further  saito,.  that  the 
said  George  Stratton  and  Henry  Brooke,  im- 
mediately at  the  time  of  their  suspension  by 
lord  Pigot,  on  the  ««d  day  of  August,  1776, 
and  whilst  they  remained  in  their  seats  at  the 
council,  wrote  and  delivered  to  this  deponent 
in  council  a  short  protest  on  a  slip  of  paper, 
against  the  legpdity  of  such  proceedmgf!^  which 


tins  deponent  entered  in  the  consultation  of 
that  day,  but  the  said  protest  was  afterwards 
expunged  bv  the  said  lord  Pigot,  with  his  own 
hand.    And  this  deponent  further  saith,  that 
the  said  lord  Pigot,  as  soon  as  he  had  de- 
clared that  the   said  Greorge  Stratton  and 
Henry  Brooke  were  suspended,  adjourned  the 
Board  by  his  own  authority,  whereupon  the 
minority  of  the  council  did  men  declare,  they 
should  still  consider  the  said  George  Stratton 
and  Henry  Brooke  as  legal  memters  of  the 
council.    And  this  deponent  fiirther  saith, 
that  previous  to,  and  on  the  said  $2d  day  of 
August,  1776,  he,  this  deponent,  declared  to 
the  members  of  the  councd  severally,  and  to 
the  said  lord  Pigot  also,  that  he,  this  depo- 
nent, conceived  it  to  be  hisduty^as  secretary, 
to  sign  and  issue  in  the  usual  form  any  order 
resonred  on,  and  dictated  by  a  majority  of  the 
Board;  and  that  he,  this  deponent,  would 
issue  such  orders  if  so  directed  by  such  ma> 
jority.    And  this  deponent  further  saith,  that 
he  endeavoured  to  oissuade  the  said  lord  Pi- 
^t  from  circulating  the  general  orders  rela- 
tive to  the  suspension  of  the  said  George 
Stratton  and  Henry  Brooke,  to  the  military, 
telling  the  said  lord  Pigot  that  he  thought 
these  measures  too  viotent ;  and  this  depo- 
nent refused  to  sign  the  said  orders  of  suspen- 
sion, until  the  said  lord  Pigot  com^ielled  this 
deponent  thereto^  by  saying,  that  if  this  de- 
ponent did  not  sign  them,  me  deputy  secre- 
tary, who  was  present,  should.    And  this  de* 
ponent  further  siuth,  that  the  said  lord  I^^ 
never  expressed,  to  this  deponent's  know* 
ledge  or  belief,  any  wish  to  accommodate  the 
breach  or  misunderstanding  between  the  two 
parties  in  council,  occasion^  by  the  suspen- 
sion of  the  said  George  Stratton  and  Henry 
Brooke,  which  this  deoonent  beKeves  mi^it 
have  been  done,  and  wnich,  as  he  believes^ 
most  of  the  members  in  the  minority  weie 
desirous  of  having  done.    And  this  deponent 
further  saith,  that  from  sundry  articles  of  in- 
telligence, produced  and  read  by  col.  Stuait 
to  the  council,  after  the  attempt  made  by  Mr. 
Claud  Russel,  on  the  84th  clay  of  August^ 
1776,  to  excite  the  main  guard  to  resistance, 
the   council  expressed  their  apprehensions^ 
and  as  this  deponent  believes,  aid  really  ap- 
prehend that  lord  Pigot  and  his  friends  were 
tampering  with  the  military  to  disturb  their 
government,  which  occasioned  their  oomii^ 
to  the  resolution  on  the  27th  of  August,  fat 
^movin^  the  said  lord  Pigot  to  Chingleput. 
And  this  deponent  further  saith,  he  verily 
believes  that  the  following  words  oootained 
in  the  board's  letter  to  major  Home  of  the 
25th  of  August,  1776,  viz.  ^  As  your  last  re- 
''  source  in  any  attempt  to  rescue  lord  Fi^ot, 
"  his  life  must  answer  for  it,  and  this  you  are 
*^  to  signify  to  him,**  were  written  with  no 
other  design  or  intention  what^iever  than  to 
intimidate  the  most  active  of  loni  Pigot's 
friends  from  continuing  to  disturb  the  goven^ 
ment,  and  to  deter  them  firom  attemnts  which 
might  endanger  the  Uvea  of  bis  l(«dahip  ind 


124£q" 


and  others^  for  deponng  Lord  Pigot 


A.  D.  1779. 


tl256 


many  others.  And  this  dcponefit  sailfe,  that 
at  the  lime  of  forming  the  said  letter,  the 
persons  signing  the  same,  declared  tihcabove- 
mcntionea  motives  to  be  those  which  in- 
fluenced them  to  use  the  words  above  referred 
to;  and  accordingly,  in  their  ordef?  to  colond 
Stuart  on  the  same  day,  they  used  the  follow- 
ing expressions,  viz.  "  We  are  eatre^ely  d^ 
**  sirous  to  avoid  every  chance,  either  ot  pub- 
« lie  disturbances  or  risk  ta  lord  Pigofs  fife.^ 
And  this  deponent  ftirther  saith,  that  notwith- 
stantfing  the  many  provocations  given  by  his 
lordship  and  his  friends,  after  his  suspension 
and  removal,  the  majority  studiously  endear- 
▼onred  to  make  his  situation  as  little  ofiensive 
as  possible,  and  that  good  order  was  main- 
tained by  liiem  in  the  government ;  and  that 
the  settlement,  during  their  time,  was  in  a 
flourishing  condition,  and  that  the  aftairs  of 
the  Company  were  prosperous,  and  that  the 
revenues  werq  increased*  beyond  any  foiroer 
period,  and  the  investments  carefiiily  provided 
for  and  enlarged. 


Tbb  king  upon  the   Information  of  his 
Attorney  General, 
againU 
GaoftOB     Stbattqn,     Henrt      Bao»BB» 
Charles     Floybr,    and    Georob 
Mack  AY,  Esqrs. 

Matthew  Home  of  Harley-strect,  *m  the 
Barish  of  St.  Mary  la  Bonne,  in  the  county 
of  Middlesex,  esq.  a  lieutenant  colonel  in  the 
service  of  the  honourable  East  India  Com^- 
pany  at  Madras,   maketh  oath,  and  saith. 
That  on  the  «4thrday  of  August  1776,  about  9 
of  the  clock  in  the  evening,  captain  LjTSE^ht, 
who  was  then  also  an  officer  in  Uie  said  East 
India  Goriipany's  service,  came  to  this  de- 
ponents house  at  St.  Thomas's  Mount,  about 
9  miles  from  Madras,  accompanied  by  lord 
Kgoti  and  delivcredto  this  deponent  a  paper, 
in  the  presence  of  the  said  loM  Pigot,  con- 
taining orders  fiiVmi  col.  Stuart,  actmg  com- 
mtaider  in  chief  of  the  said  Company's  forces, 
to  take  under  this  deponeAt's  charge^  the 
person  of  the  said  lord  Pigot.    And  ttns  de- 
ponent, after  perusing  the  siime,  addressed 
his  loro^p,  and  desired  to  know  if  he  knew 
the  contents  of  the  said  orders,  to  which  he 
answered,  that  he  imagined  the  purport  of 
Ijiem  was.for  this  depoiient  to  receive  him 
tmder  Ms  charge,  uid  that  he  was  happy  they 
bad  made  choice  of  a  man  whom  he  had 
long  known  to  be  a  man  ot  honour,  and  who, 
he  was  confident,  would  not  suffer  any  indigo 
irity  to  be  -shown  him;  and  this  depoiient 
saith,    he  assured   his  lordship   he    would 
show  hira  every  respect  and  attention   in 
his   power,  which   this  deponent   and   his 
femliy  at  all  times  did.     And   this  depo- 
nent  accordingly  immediately  mounted  an 
(TflScer's  guard,  with  orders  to  show  lord  Pigot 
the  same  honors  he  received  in  ^  fort  of 

VOL.  XXI, 


Madttw.  AHd  this  deponent  extended  the 
said  orderr  to  the  main  cuard,  and  all  the 
centinels  at  the  Mount.  And  this  deponent 
fiirther  saith,  that  on  the  next  day,  the  25th 
of  August  in  the  morning,  Messrs.  Russet, 
Dabymplc,  Stone,  Lafhom,  Morickton,  and 
also  commodore  sir  Edward  Hughes,  and  a 
peat  number  of  other  gentlemen,  visited  his 
lordship,  all  of  whom  had  ftec  atecess  to  him. 
And  this  deppnent  further  saith,  that  tlift 
said  Messrs.  Russel,  Dalrjrmple,  Lathom  and 
Monektoa,  being  discoursing  in  the  presencti 
of  many  other  gentlemen,  then  in  this  depo- 
nent's house,  m  a  maimer  which  be  con-^ 
ceiled  iikeljr  to  inflame  the  minds  of  those 
present ;  this  deponent  showed  to  the  said 
Mr.  Mbnckton  a  letter,  which  he  had  received 
that  day  from-  the  board,  iir  which  was  con- 
tained the  following  words,  viz.  <^  As  yout 
last  resource  in  any  attempt  tio  rescue  lord 
Pigot,  his  life  must  answer  for  it;  and  this 
you  are  to  signify  to  him."  And  this  depo^ 
nent  saith,  that  when  he  received  the  said 
tetter,  he  understood  it  was  meant  to  deter 
wad  prevent  the  friends  of  the  said  lord 
Pijjot,  from  attempting  to  rescue  him,  which 
might  have  pntliim  and  others  in  dan|er, 
and  with  no  other  view,  and  from  no  other 
inetive  whatever,  as  this  deponent  verily  be- 
lieves. And  this  deponent  saith,  that  it  was 
also  shown  to  the  taid  lord  Pigt)t,  and  to 
several  of  his  friends.  And  this  deponent 
verily  believes,  it  did  influence  the' gentle^ 
men  then",  present,  to  be  less  violent  in  their 
'discourse  at  his  house  at  that  time.  And 
this  deponent  further  saith,  tiuit  his  lordr 
ship's  friends  for  some  days  were  constantly 
brining  him  felse  alarms  of  parties  of  the 
nabob's  horse  being  hovering  about  with  an 
intention  to  seize  him,  and  at  other  times  of 
parlies  of  troops  marching  from  Madras,  al- 
though there  was  not  the  smallest  foundation 
in  truth  for  such  reports;  notwithstanding 
which,  the  friends  of  lord  Pigot' continued  to 
propazate  such  alarms  at  different  times. 
Ana  this  deponent  further  saith,  That  on  the 
«8th  August,  1776,  lord  Pigot,  in  speaking 
of  the  defendants  and  tiie  other  members  at 
the  council,  by  whom  be  had  been  suspended 
and  removed,  called  them  tSraitors  and  rebels, 
and  other  opprobrious  oames,  and  declared 
that  he  woula  hang  ever}r  man,  that  was  any 
ways  concerned  in  depriving  him  of  the  go» 
vernment,  or  to  that  eflect.  And  this  depo^ 
nent  hath  at  different  times  heard  his  lord- 
ship use  such  threats,  which,  with  much  abuse, 
were  also  much  more  frequently  u'sed  by  the 
said  Mr.  Monckton,  Mr.  Russel  and  Mr.  Stone'. 
And  this  deponent  further  saith,  that  except 
when  his  lordship  was  disturbed  by  such 
alarms  as  aforesaid,  his  usual  manner  of 
passing  his  time  at  the  Mount' wa^,  after 
oreakfast  to  walk  and  amuse  himself  about 
the  Mount,  or  at  Mr.  Monckton's  house  and 
ganlens,  in  the  conversation'  of  that  family, 
and  in  making  improvements  in  the  offices 
and  gardeoa^  after  which;  his  lordship  used  to 


1231] 


19  GEORGE  nL         Proceedings  againd  George  SlraUcm         [1232 


return  to  dinoery  and  used  the  like  eieicise 
aod  «DU&emcot8  aifker  dinner  as  be  had  done 
before.  And  that  Mr.  Monckton's  £unily 
generally  drank  tea  and  spent  the  evening 
with  his  lordship  at  this  deponent's  house; 
and  this  deponent  generally  invited  and 
asked  such  persons  as  came  to  vbit  his  lord- 
ships to  dine  with  him,  and  this  deponent 
ana  his  family ;  and  at  ail  times,  and  upon  all 
occasions,  used  every  means  in  their  power 
to  render  his  lordship's  residence  easy  and 
agreeable  to  him ;  ana  endeavoured  to  avoid 
tdung  notice  of  any  reflections  or  insinuations 
against  the  then  president  and  council,  not- 
withstanding the  said  Mr.  Monckton,  and 
many  other  of  his  lordship's  friends,  were 
frequently  imprudent  and  mdecent  in  such 
reflections.  And  this  deponent  further  saith, 
that  when  the  packets  were  sent  to  England 
by  lord  Pigot,  and  the  council,  in,  or  about 
September^  1776,  his  lordship  appeared  to  this 
deponent,  mclinable  to  wait  tlie  result  in  pa- 
tience, but  his  friends  about  him  constantly 
incited  him  to  interfeif ,  and  he  too  easily 
came  into  their  views.  And  this  deponent 
saith,  that  one  of  their  objacts  or  designs, 
was  to  throw  impediments  in  the  way  of 
the  then  government,  relative  to  the  quarter 
sessions;  uid  the  said  Messrs.  Russel, 
Monckton,  and  Stone,  were  constantly  bring- 
ing to  lord  Pigot  letters  and  advices  from 
their  correspomients,  and  were  the  means 
of  bis  countenancing  many  measures  which 
they  imagined  woum  keep  up  th^  spirit  of 
their  party,  and  throw  difficulties  in  the  way 
of  tbe  then  government.  And  this  deponent 
further  saith,  that  at,  or  about  the  time  when 
the  board  s^t  lord  Pigot  an  offer  to  reside  at 
any  of  the  chiefships,  or  to  proceed  to  England, 
he,  this  deponent,  had  some  discourse  with  his 
lordship  aoout  accepting  the  offer,  but  he 
would  not  hear  of  any  tning  that  looked  like 
acquiescing  in  any  offer,  or  measure,  with  the 
members  of  the  then  government.  And 
this  deponent,  on  another  conversation  with 
lord  Pigot  on  the  same  subiect,  intimated 
bis  beuef,  that  if  he  rather  cnosc  to  remain 
at  the  Mount,  and  would  give  his  word 
of  honor  to  remain  quiet,  and  not  in  any 
manner  disturb  the  then  government,  imtil 
the  Company  should  decide  between  his 
'  lordship  and  them,  they  would  not  think  of 
sending  his  lordship  to  Europe,  or  even  of 
keeping  him  longer  under  restraint;  but  his 
lordship's  answers  were,  that  he  would  never 
dishonour  himself  by  entering  into  promises^ 
or  having  an^  manner  of  engagements,  or  hold 
any  faith,  with  men  who  had  stripped  Kim  of 
his  government,  and  were  rebels.  And  thb 
deponent  further  saith,  that  the  said  lord 
Pigot  never  was  under  any  restnunt  whatever, 
except  going  into  the  garrison  of  Fort  St 
Georee,  which  this  deponent  would  have 
thought  it  his  duty,  under  such  circumstances, 
tu  have  endeavoured  to  prevent;  and  that  no 
limits  were  ever  assigned  to  his  lordship,  nor 
v^  ore  tbe  distance  of  ms  walks  ever  prescribed^ 


or  any  distance  or  bounds  whatever  fixed  where 
his  lordship  should  go,  either  by  this  deponent 
or  any  other  person  whatever.    And  that  so 
ht  from  limiting  his  lordship  to  any  distance, 
this  deponent,  on  tlie  contrary,  soon  af^  his 
lordship's  arrival  at  the  Mount,  used  to  inti- 
mate to  him,  that  he  used  to  ride  an  airing 
in  a  morning  with  his  daughters,  that  the 
rides  were  fine  about  tbe  Mount,  and  that  H 
would  amuse  him.  And  this  deponent  Ibrthet 
saith,  that  one  of  kmi  Pigot's  daughters  being 
indisposed,  this  deponent  sugg^ed  to  bis 
lordsiup  in  the  most  delicate  manner  he  could, 
that  perhaps  his  lordship   driving  her  out 
early  m  the  morning  might  contribute  to  her 
recovery.     And  this  (kponent  at  different 
times  repeated  these  intimations,  and  lest  he 
should  decline  on  an  idea  that  the  officer  on 
duty  must  hav^  gone  in  the  carriage  witii 
them,  this  deponent  informed  his  lurdabip  that 
Mrs.  Home  and  himself  would  have  pleamire 
in  accompanving  them,  with  this  deponenrs 
chaise.    And  this  deponent  saith,  that  at  one 
of  the  times  when  he  vras  pressine  lord  Pigot 
on  matters  of  this  kind,  nis  loraship  men- 
tioned some  of  the  nabob's  hoise  being  kept 
at  the  Mount,  who  were  in  number  nboat 
wher^pon  this  deponent  assured  his 
lordship  as  the\ruth  was,  that  no  use  whatever 
ever  had  been,  or  ever  was  intended  to  be 
made  of  them,  but  the  carrying  the  letters  Id 
and  from  Madras,  and  that  as  his  loviship 
disliked  their  being  there,  he,  this  deponent, 
would  appl;^  to  have  them  recalled ;  and  ac- 
cordingly tms  deponent  wrote  to  the  defendant 
Mr.  Stratton,  that  morning,  and  they  were 
instantiy  recalled.    And  this  deponent  saith, 
that  the  Darty  of  horse  above  mentioned  were 
those  referred  to  in  the  postscript  of  the  above 
mentioned  letter  to  this  deponent,  dated  the 
35  th  of  August.  1 776,  and  that  the^  never  were, 
to  the  knowledge  or  belief  of  tms  depooen^ 
meant,  or  intex3ed  to  be  used  for  any  other 
purpose  but  that  of  conveying  speedy  intelli- 
gence to  and  from  the  Mount,  and  Fort  St 
George.    And  this  deponent  further  saith, 
that  at  different  times  he  discoursed  with  krd 
Pi^ot  touching  the  forming  parties  ofplcasure^ 
and  proposedeoing  upon  one  to  CJoveiang, 
and  another  to  Vanmdore,  (about  twelve  miles 
from  the  Mount)  which  his  lordship  approved; 
but  one  day  at  dinner,  when   disoou 
thereon,  this  deponent  proposed  to  his  «■«- 
ship  taking  a  ride  the  next  afternoon  to  a 
cave  on  the  side  of  a  hill,  about  four  miles  ol( 
to  drink  tea,  and  engaging  Mr.  Moncktaa*^ 
family  to  accompany  Siem,  whereupon  bis 
lordship  proposed  going  that  ailemoon  witk 
only  the  company  then  present^  which  proposal 
was  immediately  put  in  execution,  his  loraship 
taking  Mrs.  Home  in  his  chaise ;  and  tim 
deponent  saith,  that  they  rambled  on  the  hifib 
and  drank  tea,  and  were  remarkably  happy  on 
the  occasion,  and  returned  home  about  sevca 
o'clock  in  the  evening,  when  they  found  thA 
lord  Pigot's  friends,  on  hearing  that  he  was 
rode  out,  immediately  decbured,  as  this  depo* 


ms] 


oni  otkerSf  fir  deposing  Lard  PigoU 


A,  D.  1779. 


[]2M 


nent  hath  been  informed,  and  believes,  that  it 
iras  a  scheme  laid  to  trepan  or  kidnap  his 
iordship,  and  immediately  sent  out  messen- 
gers on  different  roads  to  pursue  and  bring 
intelligence  which  way  he  was  carried,  and 
that  such  messengers  went  as  far  as  Van- 
dalore  (about  twelve  miles  from  the  Mount) 
on  full  speed,  and  hearing  nothing  of  his  lord- 
ship retumea.    And  this  deponent  saith,  this 
tx>nduct  of  lord  Pieot's  friends  vexed  him 
much,  and  prevented  his  engaging  in  future  in 
excursions  of  the  kind.    And  this  deponent 
further  saith,  that^afler  his  lordship's  first 
indisposition,  which  was  in  the  month   of 
Afardi,  1777,  he  very  seldom  dined  at  this 
deponent's  house,  but  generally  at  the  house 
of  Mr.  Monckton,  where,  and  in  his  gardens 
adjoining,  he  spent  the  greatest  part  of  his  time 
by  day.    And  this  deponent  further  saith,  that 
his  lordship^s  saddle  norse  was  every  morning 
brought  to  him  ready  for  him  to  ride  out  if  he 
chose  to  have  done  so ;  and  that  this  depo- 
nent never  gave  any  orders  or  directions  what- 
ever to  the  officers  on  duty,  to  restrain  him 
from  &oii^  wherever  he  pleased,  nor  did  any 
of  such  officers,  to  the  knowledge  or  belief  of 
this  deponent,  ever  restrun  his  lordship  in  any 
respect  whatever.    And  this  deponent  further 
saith,  that  every  possible  mark  of  respect 
and  attention  was  shewn  to  lord  Pigot  by  this 
deponent  and  his  family,  and  that  this  depo- 
neott  gave  orders  and  directions  to  all  the 
officers  and  soldiers  under  his  commatid  to 
pay  his  lordship  the  same  military  honors,  that 
were  paid  him  when  governor  of  Fort  St. 
George,  and  that  in  conseqiience  of  these 
orders  such  honors  were  paid  constantly  to 
him  accordingly. 

Ta£  KING,  upon  the  Information  of  his 
Attorkey  General, 
against 
George     Stratton,     Henry    Brooke 
Charles    Floyer,    and    George 
Mackay,  Esqrs. 

George  Stratton,  esq.  Henry  Brooke,  esq. 
Charles  Floyer,  esq.  and  George  Mackay,  esq. 
the  defendants  above-named,  severally  make 
ciath  and  say,  that  the  manner  of  executing  the 
resqlutions  and  orders  of  the  2dd  and  S7th  of 
August,  1776,  for  securing  and  removing  the 
person  of  lord  Pigot,  were  left  entirely  to 
caolonel  Stuart,  who  was  to  carry  those  mea- 
sures into  execution  by  such  means  as  to  him 
seemed  most  likely  to  prevent  danger  to  his 
lordship,  and  every  other  person  of  the  settle- 
ment; but  what  means  he  would  use.  these 
<lepoiients  were  unacquainted  with ;  ana  it  was 
i»ot  till  after  lord  Pigot  was  removed  on  the 
jMth  of  August,  1776,  that  these  deponenu 
ever  heard  thi^  the  Mid  eplonei  Stuart  had 
l>orrowed  Mr.  Benfield's  chaise  on  that  day, 
£oT  the  puTpote  of  removing  his  kndslup  to 
t|i<s  Mount.    And  these  deponents  fother 


say,  that  until  the  motion  made  bv  admiral 
Pigot  in  the  House  of  Commons,  in  the  month 
of  April,  1779,  they  never  heard  that  the  said 
Mr.  Benfield's  chaise  had  been  again  borrowed 
by  the  said  colonel  Stuart  on  the  said  27th  of 
August,  for  the  purpose  of  removing  lord 
Pigot  to  Chindeput.  And  these  deponents 
further  severally  say,  thaL  to  the  best  of  their 
remembrance  and  belief,  the  said  colonel 
Stuart,  in  August,  1776,  had  no  horses  broke 
in,  or  that  could  be  used  in  his  own  chaise, 
and  that  he  used  frequently  to  borrow  the 
horses  and  chaise  of  the  said  Mr.  BenfieM, 
who  was  reputed  to  have  the  best  in  the  set- 
tlement. 


The  king,  upon  tiie  Information  of  his 
Attorney  General, 
against 
George     Stratton,     Henry     Brooke, 
Charles    Floyer,     and    Georgb 
Mackay,  Esqrs. 

Richard  Joseph  Sullivan,  late  military  secrer 
tary  of  the  council  of  Fort  St.  George,  maketh 
oath  and  saith,  that  he  well  remembers  the 
defendant,  Charles  Floyer's  arrival  in  India, 
on  or  about  the  3d  day  of  June,  1776 ;  and 
that  on  his  arrival  he  was  summoned  to  at- 
tend as  one  of  the  council,  on  the  6th  day  of 
the  said  month  of  June ;  and  that  he  did  ac- 
cordingly attend  silch  council  on  that  day, 
but  no  mateiial  business  was  then  transacted : 
that  on  the  lOtii  of  June  another  council  was 
summoned  respecting  ^  the  mortgages  and 
claims  of  Mr.  Paul  Benfield,  at  which  council, 
and  also  at  the  council  on  the  IStb  of  the  same 
month  of  June,  the  said  Charles  Floyer  ob- 
jected to  giving  liis  vote,  and  earnestly  re- 
3 nested  to'  be  excused  giving  any  vote,  and 
esired  to  be  dispatched  to  Masmipatam,  of 
which  place  he  was  expressly  appointed  chief 
by  the  court  of  directors  in  England,  on  an 
event  which  liad  then  happenM.  And  this 
deponent  further  saith,  that  the  siud  Charles 
Floyer  was  required  by  the  late  lord  Pigot, 
the  then  presioent,  and  the  council  at  l^ort 
St  George,  to  come  into,  and  to  act  and  g;ive 
his  vote  as  one  of  the  said  council,  respecting 
the  said  claims  and  mortgages;  and  that  the 
said  Charles  Floyer  and  lord  Pigot,  were,  as 
this  defendant  venly  believes,  in  good  terms 
of  friendship.  And  this  deponent  further 
saith,  he  verily  believes  the  said  Charles 
Floyer  wished  much  to  go  to  his  chiefship  of 
Masulipatam,  and  that  his  vote  in  council  was 
given  honestiy  and  truly,  and  acoordine  to  the 
real  sentiments  formed  by  the  said  Charles 
Floyer  respecting  the  said  business.  And 
this  deponent  further  -  saith,  that  he  was  pre*- 
sent  in  the  council  on  the  13th  or  I4th  day  of 
June,  1776,  when  the  said  Charles  Floyer  de- 
livered in  to  the  board  his  opinion  on  the  ques* 
tion  respecting  Mr.  Paul  Benfield's  claims ; 
and  that  .very  soon  after  he  had  givea  his  vote 


lUbS] 


18  GEORQE  III.  Pfvc$eiingi  ngmmt  Gtorge  Strutton        (ISK 


on  the  said  subject,  he,  to  the  best  of  this 
fleponenCs  remexnbiaiicey  expressed  his  earo- 
est  "wish  to  the  board,  that  uiey  would  come 
to  the  resohitioD  of  obeying  the  positive  or- 
ders of  the  court  of  dveclors,  for  the  said 
Ciiarles  Flower  to  repair  immediately  to  his 
chiefshio  of  Masulipatam,  when  the  said  lord 
Pigot  addressed  himself  to  the  said  Charles 
Ployer,  and  declared,  that  he  shoidd  look  upon 
any  man  as  his  enemy  who  dared  to  give  his 
vote  against  him  at  that  board,  or  words  to  that 
ior  the  like  effect;  and  that  in  case  any  place 
of  trust  or  emolument  in  the  service  should 
1>ecome  vacant,  such  person  should  never  be 
appointed  thereto,  if  he  could  possibly  pre- 
vent it;  and  that  as  the  said  Charles  Floyer 
had  done  so,  he  should  most  certainly  do 
every  thing  in  his  power  to  prevent  his  nomi- 
nation to  MasuUpatam  from  takiiu^  place,  or 
used  words  to'  ttiat  or  the  like  enect.  And 
this  deponent  further  saith,  that  on  or  about 
the  Sd  day  of  October,  1776,  the  said  Charles 
Floyer  left  Fort  3t.  George,  and  went  to  his 
chiefship.of  Masulipatam ;  and  that  he  never 
acted  in  the  council,  or  interfered  in  the  eo- 
yemment  of  Madras,  until  the  month  of  July, 
^777,  afVer  the  decease  of  lord,  Pigot,  when  he 
came  to  Madras  to  settle  some  of  his  own 
aiiiEurs.  And  this  deponent  .further  saith,  that 
during  all  the  times  the  said  Charles  Floyer  • 
acted  as  one  of  the  council,  and  when  the  de- 
bates became  high  between  the  late  lord  Pigot 
and  some  of  the  said  council,  the  said  Chanes 
Floyer  did  endeavour,  to  the  utmost  of  his 
power,  to  ficcommodate  such  disputes,  and  to 
preserve  peace,  harmony,  and  good  fellowship, 
amongst  them.  - 

Mr.  SolkUor  General  stated,  that  this  was 
an  offence  of  the  greatest  enormity :  it  was 
the  imprisonment  of  the  governor  of  one  of 
the  principal  settlements ,  of  the  East-India 
Company,  and  who  was  also  commander  of 
the  army,  and  usurping  to  the  defendants  the 

¥>veminent  and  the  oommand  of  the  army, 
be  defence  is  the  necessity  of  the  act.  Ai« 
there  any  circumstances  to  apologize  for  the 
conduct  of  the  defendants?  There  are  no  cir- 
cumstances to  induce  civil  necessity.  There 
was  ilo  danger  of  war,  nor  any  injury  to  the 
Company :  .no  suspicion  to  treachery  in  lord 
.  Pigot.  The  conduct  of  lord  Pigot  was,  as 
they  say,  illegal,  in  assuming  powtts  which 
were  not  his  due.  There  was  no  personal 
danger  to  any  of  the  defendants.  All  nis  lord- 
sbij^s  offence  was,  tluLt  he«8ud  he  was  not 
bound  even  by  a  majority  of  the  council : 
their  authority,  and  the  exercise  of  their  of- 
fices, were  the  only  thusgs  in  any  danger.  All 
lord  PigoCs  endeavours  were,  to  carry  into 
honourable  execution,  all  the  ordora  of  the 
Company  to  restore  the  nyah.  He  was  re* 
stored,  indeed,  to  his  country;  but  Benfield's 
claims  to  th<a  crops  of  that  conntiv,  produced 
all  this  mischief.  Is  there  any  idea  that  the 
rejection  of  JBenfield's  claims  wovkl  have, 
cauiedany  war?----No:  thed«feaia«la^iiithout 


I 


4iBy  act  of  lord  PigoVs.to  iiyiire  the  Cooinny, 
and  with  a  view  only  to  hold  an  usurped  au- 
thority of  their  own.  thqr  imorison  their  go- 
vernor. Nobody  will  seriously  contend,  that 
it  justifies  their  conduct: — ^it  does  not  even 
oircr  an  apology  for  it.  The  Court  can  only 
inflict  the  proper  measure  of  punishinent,  by 
rendering  the  defendants  incapable,  in  future, 
of  hoMing  any  offices.  The  defendants  were 
brought  home  under  this  chaig^  and  have 
been  convicted  of  it;  and  if  they  are  permitted 
to  return  to  India,  in  oBce&  of  high  trust, 
what  must  people  in  that  couotiy  think  of 
this  f  It  would  disgrace  the  ju&tice  of  this  coua- 
tnr.  Fines  are  nothing  to  men  of  the  fortunes 
of  the  defendants ;  and  imprisonment  would 
not  be  much  r^arded.  There  is  no  way  of 
affecting  the  defendants  but  by  incapacitation. 

Mr.  Koui  was  very  strenuous  for  a  severe 
sentence.    He  entered  into  a  lone  detail  of 
the  Tanjore  war,  of  the  conduct  of  the  Com- 
pany's servants  respecting  it,  and  a  variety  of 
other  matters,  tending  to  explain  the  powers 
and  instructions  with  which  lord-  Pigot  wm 
invested.    He  stated,  that  it  was  the  duty  of 
the  defendants  to  have  obeyed  the  orders  of 
the  Company  without  resistance;  but  thai 
their  object  was,  to  continue  the  reveatiesof 
Taiyoie  to  the  nabob,  in  contradicUim  of  the 
orders  from  the  Company,  and  their  owb 
sense  of  those  orders.    The  approbation  of 
the  governor  and  council  of  Bengal,  b  the 
only  letter  subsequent  to. the  teansaction.   In 
their  letter  to  the  defendants,  dated  the  10th 
of  September,  as.  for  as  their  reasons  for  their 
disaoprol^tion  go,  they  .are  folse :  the  reason 
for  this  was,  that  the  source  of  their  inf«ma> 
tion  was  the  nabob.    Their  disapprobation  «f 
the  conduct  of  lord  Pigot,  was  founded  on  the 
information  of  the  n^sob  -.  finom  him  all  the 
complaints  against  his  lordship  originated, 
and  were  by  niiQ  presented  to  the  governor 
general  and  council,  before  the  disputes  be^ 
tween  lord  Pigot  and  his   council  existed. 
They  had  no  right  to  interfere,  except  only 
in  questions  of  peace  and  war.  It  is  true,  that 
the  Company  resolved,  by  a  majority  of  S90 
to  64,  to  restore  lord  Pigot,  and  to  recal  the 
defendants;   and  it  is  true,  too,  that  th^ 
afterwards  altered  their  opinion.    Thecasne 
that  produced  this  change,  I  shall  slate:  The 
Company  passed  the  fost  order  when  they 
,  were  unbiassed  and  uninflueaced;  but  befcie 
it  was  executed,  the  mivate  secretary  of  ths 
nabob,  -and  one  of  nis  avowed  a^enta^  ar- 
rived ;  they  broug[ht  argummU  ifwdgki  with 
them;  and  they, mconjunctioo  with  the  S0&- 
oitor  €»f  the  Treasury,  anda  herd  of  ministeriri 
dependants,  were  misily  employed  to  |in  iii 
justice:  and  I  profess  to  entortain  no  vciy 
great  veneration  for  the  subsa^pient  diffcmoa 
ci  opinion.    The  intention  of  the  defendaais 
is  evident,  from  the  comaltation  cif  the  14lii 
of  June,  and  the  proposilioii  of  Mr.  Mecfcay 
at  that  oonauHaftion.  ^■ 

The  revenoes  consist  of  part  cf  the  crof 
'  to  the  govenutieafL     Thtt 


mnd  oAen^fir  deptmi^  Lord  Pigot. 


mi] 

wfaicb  is  reaped  in  Aftiiyh  the  eiectiYe  re- 
venue. The  defendante  knew  thaii  the  nabob 
bed  mortgeged  idi  Ibe  revenue. 

The  Court,  m  determining  tbe  funirfuneat 
ef  tbe  defeodantay  witt-  consider  ibe  efiieoU 
of  tbttr  oondttct  Lord  Piget  wes  tnipiiseiied 
e%jbt  monthe,  and  nenabed  in  tbat  impnaon- 
ment,  under  tbe  nands  of  tbe  defendants. 
TbeCourt  will,  tberefbie,  make  imprisonment 
apartoftbepunishiiient.  The  Court  cannot, 
indeed  they  dare  not,  send  oaidn^faA  rufians 
^  aseaesinale  the  defendenta. 

Mr.  Bous  insisted,  that  the  Court  would 
net  judge  of  the  motives  of  tbe  defeaadants 
from  iiwir  own  affidavits;  but  that  until 
the  secrets  of  all  hearts  should  he  known, 
human  tribuals  conld  Jfadge  of  roenti  inten- 
tioDs»  only  fh>m  tbe  aotioos  which  were  the 
efiects  of  such  intentions.  He  staled,  that 
tbe  situation  of  the  defendants,  at  the  tiine 
they  comodtted  this  offence,  very  much  ag- 
gravated its  cnonnity :  they  were  then  in  the 
eiecution  of  a  public  trust,  sworn  to  the 
poper  discharae  of  their  duty.  He  said,  that 
in  the  Houes  of  Commons,  the  vote  ior  a  pro- 
secution passed  in  a  vei^  full  House,  without 
one  dissentient  voicov  Even  upon  Mr.  Strat- 
tun's  representation  of  the  business,  no  man 
was  jhere  finind  hardy  enough,  profligate 
eoough  to  oppose  it  He  continued ;  tbe  de- 
fendants Ime  been  foimd  guilty:  and  the 
Court  are  now  to  -determine,  whether  by  a 
slight  punishment,  th^  will  encourage  future 
revolutions,  or  by  a  just  severity,  secure  per- 
inenent  that  part  of  the  British  dominions 
which  alone  is  prosperous. 

Mr.  Dmmning  assured  himself,  that  incapa- 
citation would  not  be  part  of  the  sentence. 
He  said,  that  the  aels  for  ra^latin^  the  affairs 
of  the  Company,  are  not  imperative  on  this 
Court  to  inflict  that  punishment.  The  Court 
cannot  judge  of  the  proprie^  of  depriving  the 
Company  of  the  services  of  the  defendants ! 
and  if  it  shall  appear  to  the  Company,  that 
the  defendants  are  improper  persons  to  be 
empbyed  by  them,  they  may  reject  them 
without  the  assistance  of  the  Court.  Mr. 
Dunning  urged  many  arguments,  to  prove 
that  the  deftmdants  had  not  acted  from  any 
criminal  motive.  He  acknowled^d,  that  he 
oould  not  make  out  a  strict  ^g<t/ justification 
of  his  clients'  conduct ;  but  insisted  that  the 
Court,  ior  determining  their  sentence,  would 
'consider  the  intentions  by  which  they  were 
actnated  i  that  if  the  heart  was  right,  they 
would  not  punish  the  errors  of  the  head ;  and 
oondudMl  upon  the  whole,  that  the  Cetirt 
itoidd  ibflift  as  mikl  a  punishment  as  was* 
in  their  power. 


A.  D.  1779. 


[12S8 


Saturday^  Tebruar^  6. 

■  Mr.  Wittom  slated,  that  the  Mts  of  hM 
Pigotf  m  suspending  the  members  of  the 
council,  were  suhversive  of  the  eonstitulion. 
Tlie  deftndiote  were  otdiged  either  to  sidv- 
fldty  and  suibr  hli  lerdihip  to  deprive  Ibem 

t 


of  that  authority  with  whiofa  they  had  boen 
invested  by  the  orders  of  the  Company,  or  to 
do  the  very  thing  which  they  did.  The  steps 
taken  were  absolutely  necessary,  in  order  .to 
take  the  govermnent  into  their  own  hands. 
If  iord  Pigot  had  been  king  of  Madras,  and 
the  government  had^  been  such  by  oompact, 
as  it  was  by  the  charter  and  orders  of  the 
Comoany,  even  in  that  case,  the  resistance  of 
the  oefendants  would  liave  been  meritorious. 
He  stated,  that  there  is  no  compulsion  on  the 
Court  to  incapacitate  the  defondajits ;  that 
justice  does  not  call  ibr  it ;  for  it  appears,  that 
under  their  govemment  the  settlement  of 
Madias  was  in  a  more  flourishing  oondition 
than  in  any  other  period.  If  the  Court  should 
imprison  the  defendants,  it  would  (he  said)  be 
tite  first  case  in  which  that  punishment  was 
inflicted  for  doii^  what  the  delfendants  at  that 
time  thought  right,  and  which  many  thought 
legal.  They  have  been  mistaken  in  point  of 
law ;  but  that  mistake  was  attended  not  with 
bad,  but  beneficial  efiects  to  the  public. 

Mr.  mmmhre  said,  there  were  no  grounds 
even  for  a  suspicion,  that  tbe  defendants  liad 
acted  from  any  corrupt  motives :  their  oflenoe 
proceeded  only  from  an  eiror  in  judgment : 
and  he  stated  Mr.  Floyer's  case,  as  peculiarly 
unfortunate ;  for  that  he  had  been  appointed 
chief  or  resident  at  Masuiipatam,  and  tt* 
quested  to  go  there,  but  was  forced  by  the 
board  to  remain  and  vote.  He  stayed  et 
Madras  four  months,  and  lost  all-  the  emolu- 
ments of  his  appointments.  He  swears  he 
has  lost  many  thousand  pounds. 

Mr.  Arden  said,  the  defendants  had  not 
been  convicted  of  the  ofience  imputed  to 
them,  with  intent  to  prevent  the  executk>n  of 
the  orders  of  the  East  India  Company  •  sueh 
an  intention  was  not  alleged,  or  insisted  on  at 
the  trial.  That  the  f;ommiS8ion  under  which 
the  defendants  acted,  bad  been  said  to  be 
very  clear ;  but  he  said,  it  had  been  mulaken 
even  bv  men  conversant  in  kiw^  That  hk  a 
pamphlet,  avowed  by  a  gentleman,  who  was 
veiy  active  in  the  prosetution,  (Dalrymple), 
it  had  been  attempted  to  prove,  that  lord 
Pigot  had  a  negative  vote.  He  admitted, 
that  lord  Pigot  was,  as  governor,  an  integral 
part  ofnhe  constitution ;  but  insisted,  that  if 
the  defondants  were  assembled  with  him,  then 
every  act  they  did  was  legal.  He  said,  if  it 
appeared  to  the  Court,  tliat  the  defendants 
acted  with  a  bad  inte&tion,  their  conduct 
would  call  for  a  severe  punishment. ,  He  said, 
it  had  been  asked  by  Mr.  Rous,  what  people 
in  India  would  think  of  the  justice  of  thb 
country,  if  the  defendants  should  return  in 
power  f  He  asked  what  they  w^uld  think,  if 
they  should  find,  that  the  defendants  were  in« 
capacitated  from  holding  any  offices  ?-— They 
wooM  naturally  enquire  wliether  then*  con^ 
duct  was  disapproved  in  this  country,  whe- 
ther it  was  ^oved  that  they  acted  from  cor- 
rupt motives,  that  they  would  think  these 
drcumstances  ateeisaty  ie  justify  a  aevere 
sentence. 


1259] 


19  GEORGE  IIL  Proceedings  MgainH  George  StraUw       [1260 


Mr.  PiggeU  made  a  veiy  scDsible  speech 
6n  tbe  same  aide. 

The  Hon.  Tkomat  Erskine  ;• 

r 

My  lord ;  I  really  do  not  know  how  to 
a$k,  or  even  to  expect,  the  attention  of  the 
Court ;  I  am  sure  it  is  no  gtatification  to  me« 
to  try  your  lordships'  natience  on  a  subject 
so  completely  exhausted ;  I  feel,  besides,  that 
the  array  ot  counsel  assembled  on  this  occa- 
sion, gives  an  im|>ortance  and  solemnity  to 
the  conviction  which  it  little  deserves,  and 
carries  the  air  of  a  painful  resistance  of  an 
expected  punishment,  which  it  would  be  a 
Ubel  on  the  wisdom  and  justice  of  the  Court 
to  expect 

But  in  causes,  which,  from  their  public  na- 
ture, have  attracted  the  public  notice,  and  in 
which  public  prejudices  have  been  indus* 
triously  prop^tcd  and  inflamed,  it  is  very 
natural  lor  the  objects  of  them  to  feel  a  plea- 
sure in  seeing  their  actions  (if  they  will  bear  a 
naked  inspection)  repeatedly  stripped  of  the 
disguise  with  which  the  arts  of  their  enemies 
had  covered  them,  and  to  expect  their  counsel 
to  be,  as  it  were,  the  heralds  of  their  innocence, 
even  afler  the  minds  of  the  judges  are  con- 
vinced. They  are  apt,  likewise,  and  with 
some  reason^  to  think,  thaL  in  iku  stage  of 
a  prosecutbn,  surplusi^  is  less  olSensive,  the 
degree  of  punishment  not  beine  reducible  to 
a  point  like  a  legal  justification,  out  subject  to 
be  sol\ened  and  shaded,  away  by  the  variety 
of  views  in  which  the  same  tacts  may  be  fa- 
vourably and  justly  presented,  both  to  the  un- 
derstanding and  the  heart  Such  feelings,  my 
lord,  which  I  more  than  guess  are  the  feelingt 
of  my  iiyured  cUents,  must  be  my  apology 
fox  adding  any  thing  to  what  my  learned 
leaders  have  already,  I  think,  unanswerably 
urged  in  their  favour.  It  will  be,  however,  un- 
necessary for  me  to  fatigue  your  lordship  with 
a  minute  recapitulation  of  the  facts;  I  shall 
oonfine  myself  to  the  prominent  features  of  the 

The  defendants  are  convicted  of  having  as- 
sumed to  themselves  the  power  of  the  govern- 
ment of  Madras,  and  with  having  assaulted 
and  imprisoned  lord  Pigot  I  say,  they  are 
convicted  of  that^  because,  although  I  am 
aware  that  the  general  verdict  of  guilty  in- 
cludes, likewise,  the  truth  of  the  mt  count 
of  the  information,  which  charges  the  ob- 
struction of  lord  Piffot  in  carrying  into  execu- 
tion the  specific  orders  of  the  Company,  yet 
it  is  impossible  that  the  ^neral  verdict  can  at 
all  embarrass  the  Court  m  pronouncing  judg- 
ment, it  being  notorious  on  the  face  of  the 
evidence,  first,  that  there  were  no  direct  or 
specific  orders  of  the  Company  touching  the 
points  which  occasioned  eitner  the  original  or 
nnal  differences,  the  nyah  of  Tanjore  being, 

*  The  Iblloviog  raport  of  this  jotllj  oeiabraled 
Speaeh,  is  taken  from  p.  35,  of  the  *  Speeches  of  lord 
firikine  when  at  the  bar  on  Misoellaneoiis  saljects,' 
in  which  pablicatioa  it  was  first  printed. 


before  the  diipates  avoee,  even  b^^  the 
letter  of  the  mstiuctions,  restored  and  se* 
cured.  Secondly,  that  the  instructions,  wbit* 
ever  they. were,  or  however  to  be  construed, 
were  not  jgiven  to  the  single  constmction 
of  k>rd  Pigot,  but  to  him  and  kit  amncU, 
like  all  the  other  general  inMnutian  of  tktt 
government. 

The  Comnany  inclined  that  the  n^ofTsD- 
jore  should  be  restored  vrithuut  infrWing  the 
rights  of  the  nabob  of  the  Camatic ;  but  km 
such  restoration  and  security  oftherajahoouid, 
or  was  to  be  efiected.  without  the  iofinngemeol 
of  those  riehts  of  the  nabob  which  were  not  to 
be  violated,  the  Company  did  not  leave  to  the 
single  discretion  of  lewd  Pigot,  but  to  the  de- 
termination of  the  ordinary  powers  of  the  eo- 
vemment  of  Fort  Saint  George,  acting  to  Vat 
best  of  their  understandings,  respon^bleonly, 
like  all  other  magistrates  and  nders^  for  the 
purity  of  their  intentions. 

It  is  not  pretended  that  the  Company's  ia- 
structions  directed  the  rajah's  security  to  bee^ 
fected  by  the  residence  ot  a  civil  chid^and  ooun- 
cil  in  Tanjore,  or  by  any  other  civil  establish- 
Qient  whatsoever :  on  the  contrary,  they  dis- 
avow such  appropriation  of  any  part  of  the  re- 
venues of  that  country ;  yet  the  rttuting  a  ami 
ettabliihment  in  the  per9on  o/*  lord  Fimtt  Jos- 
in4aw, Mr,  Ruttel^ dettined too  by  theCoHfeuf 
for  a  different  and  incompatible  Meroicey  u  tit 
specific  obttmction  which  ii  the  burden  of  ik 
firtl  count  of  the  infomuitiony  and  which  it  there 
attempted  to  be  brought  forward  ae  an  eggnmi- 
tion  of  the  attumption  ^  the  general  poaemf 
the  government ;  the  obstruction  of  what  ms 
not  only  nei  ordered  by  the  Company,  but  of 
which  their  orders  implied^  ana  in  jpuhlic 
council  were  admitted  by  one  of  loni  Pi^s 
adherents  to  imply,  a  disapprobation  and  pro* 
hibition. 

The  claiihs  of  Mr.  Beofield,  the  subject  of 
so  much  slanderous  declamation  without 
proof,  or  attempt  of  proof,  and,  what  is  more 
extraordinary,  without  even  charge  or  !&> 
cusation,  are  subject  to  the  same  obsema- 
tions :  the  orders  to  restore  the  rush  to  the 
possession  of  his  country,  certainly  did  not  o- 
press,  and,  if  my  iudgment  does  not  mislead 
me,  could  not  imply,  a  restitution  of  the  cropt 
sown  with  the  Prince's  money,  advanced  lo 
the  inhabitants  on  the  credit  of  the  harvest 
without  which,  universal  famine  would  have 
ensued. 

ilad  the  nabob,  indeed,  seized  upon  Tanjore 

in  defiance  of  the  Company,  or  even  wttfaoot 
its  countenance  and  protection,  he  woukl,  no 
doubt,  have  been  a  maid  Jide  possessor  fimd 
all  transactions  concerning  it  with  the  Com- 
pany's  servants,  whatever  the  justice  of  ois 
title  to  it  might  in  reality  have  l>een ;  and  the 
Company's  governors,  in  restoring  the  r^ 
paying  no  respect  to  such  usurpedpossetsaoOf 
woula  have  been  justifiable  in  teliing  any  £»* 
ropean  who  had  lent  his  nkoney  on  the  seoi- 
rity  of  Tanjore— Sir,  you  have  lent  yox 
money  with  your  eyes  opeDjto  a  per>o0» 


1261] 


and  aiherSfJbr  deposing  Lord  PigoU 


A.  D.  1779. 


[1262 


whose  title  you  knew  not  to  be  ratified  by  our 
approbation,  and  we  cannot,  therefore,  consi- 
der either  his  claim  or  yours  derived  from  it. 
But  wlien  the  nabob  was  put  intb  possession 
by  the  Company's  troops ;  when  that  posses- 
sion, so  obtained,  was  ratified  ^n  Europe,  at 
least  by  the  silence  of  the  Company,  no  mat- 
ter whether  wisely  or  unwisely,  justly  or  un- 
iustly;  and,  after  the  nabob  had  been  pub- 
licly congratulated  upon  such  possession,  by 
the  King's  plenipotentiary  in  tne  presence  of 
all  the  neignbouring  princes  in  Inaia ;  I  con- 
fess I  am  at  a  loss  to  discover  the  abmrdUy 
(as  it  has  been  called)  of  the  nabob's  j>reten- 
sions;  and  it  must  be  remembered,  that 
Mr.  Benfield's  derivative  title  i^'as  not  the 
subject  of  dispute,  but  the  title  of  the  nabob, 
his  principal,  from  whence  it  was  derived ;  I 
am,  therefore,  supported  by  the  report  of  the 
evidence,  in  saying,  that  it  does  not  appear 
that  the  differences  iii  council  arose,  were 
continued,  or  brought  to  a  crisis,  on  points 
where  lord  Pigot  luid  the  Company's  orders, 
either  express  or  implied,  to  give  any  weight 
to  his  single  opinion  beyond  the  ordinary 
weight  allotted  to  it  by  the  constitution  of 
the  setdement,  so  as  to  justify  the  Court  to 
consider  the  dissent  of  the  m%jority  from  kit 
meaniret^  to  be  either  a  criminal  resistance  of 
the  President,  or  a  disobedience  of  the  Com- 
panv's  specific  or  general  instructions. 

TIius  perishes  the  first  count  of  the  infor- 
mation, even  if  it  had  been  matter  of  charge ! , 
But  much  remains  behind.  I  know  it  is  not 
enough  that  the  Company's  orders  were  not 
specific  touching  any  of  the  points  on  which 
the  difierences  arose,  or  that  they  were  silent 
lotMchins  the  property  of  the  crop  of  Taiyore, 
or  that  the  nabob's  claim  to  it  nad  the  sem- 
blance, or  even  the  reality  of  justice ;  I  admit 
that  it  is  not  sufficient  that  the  defendants 
bad  the  largest  and  most  liberal  discretion  to 
exercise,  it  that  discretion  should  appear  to 
have  been  warped  by  bad,  corrupt,  or  selfish 
motives;  I  am  aware,  that  it  would  be  no  ar- 
sument  to  say,  that  the  acts  charged  upon 
them  were  done  in  resistance  of  lord  Pigot's 
Ulegai  subversion,  if  it  could  be  replied  upon 
me,  and  that  reply  be  supported  by  evidence, 
that  such  subversive  acts  of  lord  Pi^t,  thcmgh 
neither  justifiable  nor  Ic^l,  were  m  laudable 
opposition  to  their  corrupt  combinations.  I 
freely  admit  that,  if  such  a  case  were  esta- 
blished iKainst  me,  I  should  be  obliged  to 
abandon  weir  defence ;  because  I  could  apply 
none  of  the  great  principles  of  government  to 
their  protection ;  but,  if  they  are  clear  of  such 
imputations,  then  I  can  and  will  apply  them 
all. 

Mv  lord,  of  this  bad  intention  there  is  no 
proof;  no  proof  did  I  say?  there  is  no  charge! 
— I  cannot  reply  to  $lander  here.  I  will  not 
debase  the  purity  of  the  Court  by  fighting 
with  the  phantoms  of  preiudicc  and  party, 
tjiat  are  invisible  to  the  sedate  and  sober  eye 
of  justice !  If  it  had  been  a  private  cause,  I 
would  not  have  suffered  my  clients^  as  tar 


as  my  advice  could  have  uifluen^ed,  to  have 
filed  a  single  affidavit  in  support  of  that  inte- 
grity upon  which  no  complaint  attached, 
and  whicli  no  evidence  had  impeached ;  but, 
since  they  were  bound  like  public  victims,  and- 
cast  into  this  fiimace,  we  wished  them  U> 
come  forth  pure  and  white ;  their  innocence 
is,  therefore,  witnessed  before  your  lordships, 
and  before  the  worltl,  by  their  mest  solemn 
oaths ;  and  it  is  surely  no  great  boon,  to  ask 
credit  for  facts  averred  imder  the  most  sacred 
obligations  of  relfgion,  and  subject  to  criminal 
retribution  even  A^re,  which  you  are  bound,  in 
the  absence  of  proof,  not  only  in  duty  as 
judges,  but  in  charity  as  men,  to  believe  with- 
out any  oaths  at  all. 

They  have  denied  every  corrupt  motive* 
and  purpose,  and  every  interest,  airectly  or 
indirectiy,  with  Mr.  Benfield,  or  his  claims. — 
But,  says  Mr.  Rous,  Benfield  was  a  man  of 
straw  set  up  by  the  Nabob  ;  be  it  so ; — they 
have  positively  sworn  that  they  had  no  inte- 
rest, directly  or  indirectiy,.in  the  claims  of 
tke  Nabob  himself;  no  interest,  directiy  or  in- 
directiy, in  the  property  of  the  crop  of  lanjore ; 
no  interest,  directiy  or  indirectly,  oeyond  their 
duty,  in  the  preference  of  colonel  Stuart's  ap- 

S ointment  to  Mr.  Russel's ;  nor  any  interest, 
irect  or  indirect^  in  any  one  act  wluch  is  the 
subject  of  the  prosecution,  or  which  can,  by 
the  most  collateral  direction,  be  brought  to 
bear  upon  it.  Such  are  the  affidavits;  and, 
if  they  be  defective,  the  defect  is  in  us.  They 
protested  their  innocence  to  us,  their  counsel, 
and,  telling  us  that  there  was  no  form  in 
which  language  could  convey  asseverations 
of  the  punty  of  their  motives,  which  they 
could  not  with  a  safe  conscience  subscribe  to, 
they  left  it  to  us  to  firame  them  in  terms  to 
exclude  all  evasion. 

But  eircumitancei  come  in  aid  df  their  credit 
stronger  than  all  oaths :  men  may  swear  fiilse- 
ly ;  men  may  be  perjured,  though  a  court  of 
justice  cannot  presume  it ;  but  human  nature 
cannot  be  perjured.  They  did  not  do  the 
very  thing,  when  they  got  tne  goyemment,  for 
which  they  are  supposed  to  luive  usurped  it. 
The  history  of  the  world  does  not  afford  an 
instance  ot  men  wading  through  guilt  for  a 
purpose  which,  when  within  their  grasp,  they 
never  seized  or  looked  that  way  it  lay. 

When  Mr.  Benfield  first  laid  his  claims  be- 
fore the  board,  lord  Pigot  was  absent  in  Tan- 
jore,  and  Mr.  Stratton  was  the  legal  governor 
diuuif  his  absence,  who  might  therefore  have, 
in  stnct  regularity,  proceeded  to  the  discussion 
of  them ;  but  he  r^erred  them  back  to  lord 
Pigot,  and  postpmted  that  discussion  till  his  re- 
turn; when,  on  that  discussion,  they  were 
declared  valid  by  a  legal  majority,  they 
neither  forced  them,  nor  threatened  to  force 
them  on  the  r^ah,  but  only  recommended 
it  to  him  to  do  justice,  leaviiu;  the  time  aad 
the  manner  to  himself;  and,  when  at  last* 
they  assumed  the  government,  they  did  not  * 
change  their  tone  with  their  power;  the 
rajah  was  lefl  unrestraiaed  as  betoce,  «ftd,  9t 


19  GEORGE  IIL  F^§C9edinff  iigm$t  George  EifMtm       [1264 

hem  it,  he  wilt  be  astenisked  he  did  not 
diacoter  it  himself.    Let  me  foauod  him, 
then,  that  aH  the  iafcranrti  which  eomwiioos' 
with  the  Jfmbok  so  amply  supped  oalhe  iw 
hamdt,  coMMxioBe  witn  the  St§mk  wmdd  is 
amply  hoive  sufplied  om  the  otiUr.    H*  llie 
Tai^jore  crop  was  the  hoae  of  ooatmtiM,  the 
Rayah,  hy  ke^imf  tf »  had  sively  the  suae  op- 
portHDity  of  natitade  to  hie  adherents,  thst 
the  nabob  hag  to  hia  by  ama$ckmg  iifrotUlm, 
The  appointment  of  Mv.  Rvsml,  te  ^  im^ 
deacy  of  Tanjore — ^Mr.  ftaasel,  tfae  ineod, 
the  coofideiil^  tfae  8oa-in*law  of  lord  Pigo^ 
was  sufely  as  apod  a  butt  for  insiDnalion  as 
cohmelStuaffyJoriiiemMeoauiKU,  ThebiU 
mighty  therefore,  have  been  thrown  back  wMi 
redoubled  violence ;  and  I  need  not  reouDd 
the  Court,  that  the  cause  waa  conducted  ob 
ouc  pait  by  ar  gentleman  whose  po#en  of 
thiovanff  it  bacE  it  wcmld  be  foll^  in  bm  t» 
speak  of;  but  he  nobly  disdained  it ;  be  sail 
he  would  not  hire  out  his  talents  to  scatter 
insinuation  and  abuse,  when  the  admiiiistn- 
tion  of  risht  and  justice  did  not  require  it; 
and  his  clients^  while  they  reoeived  the  M^ 
fiuthfiil,  and  energetic  exercise  of  his  j^ 
abilities,  admired  and  applauded  the  delidle 
manly  rectitude  of  his  conduct ;  they  feh  tihil 
tiieir  cause  derived. a  dignity  and  a  secuntr 
finom  the  m av,  greater  than  the  cdvoeaiBj  doa 
even  than  tuck  an  advocste,  could  bestsw. 

I  shall  follow  the  example  of  Mr.  Dunnisg. 
God  forbid,  my  lord,  that  I  should  insdttifio 
ashes  of  a  brave  man^  who,  in- other  respects^ 
deserved  well  of  his  country;  but  kt  m» 
remind  the  gentl^smen  on  the-  other  side,  tint 
the  honour  of  the  liviho  isas  sacred  a  caHoB 
humanity  and  justioe  as  the  memory  of  tkf 

DEAD. 

My  lord,  the  case,  thus  stripped  ofthefito 
colours  thrown  upon  it  by  party  deftmaliMr 
stands  upon  plain  and  simple  principles,  aid 
!'•  shall,  therefore,  disouss  it  in  the  saaoe 
arraa^ment  which  your  lordship  pirsoed  ia 
summing  up  ^tke  evidence  to  the  jury  at  ths 
trial,  only  substituting  alleviation  for  .^ttti* 
fication. 

First,  In  whom  did  the  ordinary  poms « 
the  government  of  Madras  reside  ? 

Secondly,  What  acts  were  done  by  lord 
Pigot,  subversive  of  that  government  ? 

Thiidly,  What  degree  of  oriminality  beloogs 
to  the  confessedly  iltegal  act  of  the  defendant^ 
in  assuming  to  themselves  the  whofe  po««f» 
of  the  government,  w  tuyvorfed  f  I  sayi  ^ 
sulbwrttd:  for  L  must  keep  it  coastently  » 
the  eye  of  the  court,  that  the  government  wa» 
subverted,  and  was  admitted  by  yourlonbfa^ 
at  the  trial,  to  have  been  subverted  ly  ^ 
Figciy  before  it  was  assumed  by  th€  maj^nbi 
o/tkecouneiL  . 

First,  then,  in  whom  did  the  govenmicnt  ot 
Fort  St.  George  reside  ?  And,  in  deddiBg: 
this  question,  it  will  not  be  necessarjT  to£i 
as  some  have  done,  into  tbegenerslpiinaiHts 
of  govemm^it,  or  to  com(fare  the  *P**?J2 
of  a  oompaoy  of  merdttots  with  gieatptHnKn 


1263] 

M»  hour  J  the  claims  remain  in  the 
skuaiioa  in  which  they  stood  at  the  cem^ 
mencement  of  the  disputes;  neither  the 
nabob  nor  My.  Benfield  have  derived  the 
BBsalleet  advantage  or  support  from  the  re- 
volution in  the  government. 

This  puts  an  end  to  all  diaaission  ef  Indian 
pohtics,  which  have  been  artfollv  introduced 
to  pussle  and  perplex  the  simfMe  merits  of 
this  cause ;  I  have  no  more  to  do  witi^  the 
first  or  second  Tanjore  war,  than  with  the  first 
or  second  Carthaginian  war ;  I  am  sony, 
howevep,  my  absence  yesterday  in  the  House 
of  Commons  prevented  me  from  hearing  the 
iiistoffy  of  them,  because^  I  am  tc^d,  Mr. 
Eous  spoke  with  great  ability,  and,  I  am  con- 
vinced from  what  I  know  of  his  upright 
temper,  with  a  zeal,  that^  for  the  moment, 
to  his  own  boson^Justified  what  he  said ;  but, 
if  I  am  not  misinformed,  his  zeal  was  his^ 
only  farief ;  his  imagination  and  resentment 
spumed  the  fetters  both  of  fact  and  aocusa- 
tion«  and  his  acquaintance  with  Indian  affnirs 
enabled  him  to  give  a  variety  to  the  cause, 
by  plausible  circumstances,  be^nd  the  reach 
of  vulgar,  ignorant  malice  to  mvent.  It  was 
calculated  to  do  much  mischief,  for  it  was  too 
long  to  be  remembered,  and  too  unintelhgible 
to  be  refuted ;  yet  I  am  contented  to  demand 
iudgment  on  my  clients  on  Mc  Rous-'s  terms: 
ne  tells  your  lordship,  that  their  intentions 
caniiot  be  known  till  that  time  when  tiie 
secrets  of  all  human  hearts  shall  be  revealed, 
and  then,  in  the  ver^  same  breath,  he  calls  for 
a  punishment  as  if  they  were  revealed  al- 
ready.  It  is  a  new,  ingenious,  and  summary 
mode  of  proceeding-^?eff inum  renudktm,  an 
assize  of  conscience.— If  it  should  become  tfae 
practice,  which«  from  the  weight  of  my  learned 
friend,  I  have  no  manner  of  doubt  it  will,  we 
shall  hear  such  addresses  to  juries  in  crimis^ 
courts  as  this : — Gentieroen.  I  am  counsel  n>r 
the  proseoution,  and  I  must  d4  candid  enough 
to  aanit;that  the  charge  is  not  proved  against 
the  defendants;'  there  is  certainly  no  legal 
evidence  before  you  to  entitle  the  crown  to 
your  verdiot ;  but,  as  there  is  little  reason  to 
doubt  that  tiiey  are  guilty,  and  as  this  defi- 
ciency in  .the  evidence  will  probably  be  sup- 
plied' at  the  day  of  judgment,  you  are  well 
warranted  in  convictmg  them ;  and  if,  when 
the  day  of  judgment  comes,  both  you*  and  I 
should  turn  out  to  be  mistaken,  they  may 
move  for  a  new  trial. 

This  was  the  general  argument  of  gailt; 
and,  in  the  particuUtrt^  the  reasoning  was 
equally  close  and  logical.  How,  says  Mr. 
Rous,  can  it  be  believed  that  the  Tanjore 
crop  •was  not  ^e  corrupt  foundatiim  of  the 
dciendants'  conduct,  when  it  appears  from 
day  to  day,  on  the  face  of  all  the  consultations, 
as  the  single  objeet  of  dispute?  That  it  was 
Ito  object  of  dispute,  I  shall,  for  argument's 
Wm^ admit;  but  does  Mr.  Rous's  conclu- 
Am  follow  from  the  adtoiission  of  his  pre- 
niiaes?  I  will  tell  him  why  it  does  not; 
itissoveiy  plam  a  reason,  that^  when  he 


1265] 


N  

end  others f  Jar  deposing  Lord  Pigoi. 


A.  D.  1779. 


riS66 


TOvernments,  either  ancient  or  modem.   The 
£ast  India  Company,  being  incorpoineited  by 
act  of  parliament,  derived  an  authority  from 
their  cnarter  of  incorporation,  to  constitute 
inferior  govemmentd,  dependant  on  them  for 
the  purposes  of  managing  their  concerns  in 
those djstant  parts: — ^had  the  Company,  at  the 
time  the  charter  was  sraiited^  b€«n  such  an 
immense  and  powelfui  body  as  it  has  since 
become  from  the  trade  and  prosperity  of  the. 
empire,  it  might  have  happened  that  the  forms 
of  these  governments  would  have  been  accu- 
rately chalked  out  by  parliament,  and  )>een 
made  part  of  the  charter ;  in  which  case,  the 
charter  itself  would  have  been  the  only  place 
to  have  resorted  to  for  the  sokition  ot  any 
question    respecting   the    powers    of    such 
'        governments,  because  the  Company,  by  the 
'        ge6eral  law  of  all_  corporations,  covdd  have 
^        made  no  by-laws,  or  standing  orders,  repug- 
I        nant  to  it;    but,  on   the  other  hand,  the 
'        charter  having  lei\  them  at  liberty,  in  this 

*  instance,  and  not  havuig  prescribed  constitu- 

*  tions  for  their  territorial  governments  in  India, 
I  tiiere  can  be  no  possible  place  to  resort  to  for 
>  the  solution  of  such  questions,  but  to  the  com- 
!       missions  of  government  granted  by  the  Com- 

*  pany ;  their  standing  orders,  which  may  be 
i  csonsidered as  fundamental  constitutions;  and 
I  such  explanatory  instructions  as  they  may, 
I  ifom  time  to  time,  have  transmitted  to  their 
p  servants  for  the  regulation  of  their  conduct ; — 
k  by[  these,  and  these  alone,  must  every  dispute 
I  arising  in  the  governments  of  India  be  deter- 
f  mined,  except  such  as  fall  within  the  ,cogni- 
»  zance  of  the  act  of  the  ISth  of  Georee  3rd, 
\       lor  the  regulation  of  the  Company's  a&irs,  as. 

veil  in  India  as  in  Europe. 

First,  then,  as  to  the  commission  of  govern- 
ment, where  the  plause,  on  which  they  build 
r        the  most,  is  made  to  run  thus :  **  And  to  the 
t        end  that  he  might  be  the  better  enabled  to 
I        manage  all  the  afiatrs  of  them  the  said  Com- 
pany, they  appointed  certain  persons,  therein 
,        named,  to  be  ^f  their  council  at. Fort  St. 
George."  These  words  would  certainly  imply 
the  president  to  be  an  integral  and  substantive 
part  distinct  from  the  council ;  but,  unfortu- 
,        nately,  no  such  words  are  contained  in  the 
cODunission  of  government,  which  speaks  a 
very  different  language,  almost  in  itself  con- 
elusive  against  the  proposition  they  wish  to 
establish.    The  words  are,  **  And  to  the  end 
that  the  said  George  lord  Pigot  mi^ht  be 
the  better  enabled  tu  manage  all  the  anairs  of 
us,  the  said  Company,  we^o  constitute  and 
ordain  George  Stratton,  esq.  to  be  second  in 
•ur  council  of  Fort  St,  George,  to  wit,  to  be 
SfEXT  IN  THE  COUNCIL  at\er  our  said  president 
€reorj;e  lord  Pigot.-'    It  is  impossible  for  the 
Snghsh  langus^  more  plainly  to  mark  out 
the  president  to  be  merely  the  first  in  council, 
and  not  an  integral  substantive  part,  tmisttd 
'  hv  a  council ;  for,  in  such  case,  Mr.  Stratton, 
Uki    senior   counsellor,  would,  it  is  appre- 
hended, be  called  the  fir$t  in  council,  instead 
of  tint  sMmd  in  council^  lOiwit,  next  after  the 
VOL.  XXI* 


president;  and  this  clause  in  the  commission, 
so  explsuned,  not  only  goes  far  by  itself  to  . 
resist  the  claim  of  independence  in  the  presi- 
dent, but  takes  off  from  the  ambiguity  and 
uncertainty  which  would  otherwise  cloud  the 
construction  of  the  clause  that  follows,  viz. 
'*  And  we  do  hereby  give  and  grant  unto  our 
said  president  and  governor  George  lord  Pigot, 
and  to  our  council  qfore-namedy  or  the  major 
part  of  them,  full  power  and  authority,  &:c.'' 
The  president  and  council  being  here  named 
distinctly,  the  word  them,  without  the  fore* 
goin^  clause,  might  seem  to  constitute  the 
president  an  integral  part,  and  separate  from 
the  council;  but  the  president,  bavins  been 
before  constructively  named  as  the  first  its 
council;  Mr.  Stratton,  though  the  senior 
counsellor,  being  expressly  named  the  second, 
it  is  plain  the  word  them  signifies  the  majority 
of  such  council,  of  which  the  president  is  the  first, 
and  who  is  named  distinctly,  not  only  by  way 
of  pre-eminence,  but  because  all  pubuc  bodies 
are  called  and  described  by  their  corporate 
names,  and  all  their  acts  witnessed  by  their 
common  seals,  whatever  their  internal  con- 
stitutions may  be.  No  heads  of  corporations 
have,  by  the  common  law  of  England,  any- 
negative  on  the  proceedings  of  the  other  con- 
stituent parts,  unless  by  express  provision  iq 
their  charters ;  ■  yet  all  their  powers  are  given 
to  them,  and  exercised  by  them,  in  their  cor- 
porate names,  which  ever  makes  the  head  a 
party,  altiiough  he  may  be  dissentient  from, 
the  act  that  receives  authority  from  his  name. 

The  standing  orders  of  the  Company,  pub- 
lished in  1687,  and  in  1709,  which  may  be 
considered  as  fundamental  constitutions,  ace 
plain  and  unequivocal ;  they  enjoin,  ^'  That 
all  their  afi&irs  shall  be  transacted  in  Council, 
and  ordered  and  managed  as  the  MAJoaiTr 
OF  THE  Council  shall  determine,  and  not 
othowise  on  any  pretence  whatsoever.'*  And 
a£ain,  '<  That  whatever  is  agteed  on  by  the 
Majority  shall  be  the  order  by  which  each 
one  is  to  act ;  and  every  individual  person, 
even  the  dissenters  themselves,  are  to  perform 
their  parts  in  the  prosecution  thereof.*' 

The  agreement  of  the  majority  being  deno- 
minated an  ORDER,  shews  as  clearly  as  lan- 
guage can  do,  that  obedience  is  expected  to 
their  determination ;  and  it  is  eoually  plain, 
that  no  constituent  member  of  tnat  govern- 
ment can  frustrate  or  counteract  such  order, 
since  each  individual,  even  the  dissenters  them- 
selves, are  commanded  to  act  in  conformity  to 
it,  and  to  perform  thejr  parts  in  the  prosecu- 
tion thereof.  In  speaking  to  dispassionate 
men,  it  is  almost  needless  to  add  any  argu- 
ments to  show  that  the  president's  claim  to 
refuse  to  put  a  question^  adopted  by  a  majo- 
rity of  council,  stands  upon  the  very  same 
grounds  as  his  claim  to  a  negative  on  their 
proceedings,  and  that,  if  the  first  be  over- 
turned, the  second  must  fall  alone  with  it ; 
for  if  he  be  not  an  integral  partof  tne  govern- 
ment, and  his  concurrence  be  conse^uentiy 
not  necessary  to  constiiute  an  act  of  it,  then 

4M 


werj 


19  OEORGE  IIL         ProeeetUngt  Hg^M  George  SifiOim        [1868 


his  office  as  prtsident,  with  retpect  t6  puUing 
qnestioHSf  must  necessarily  be  only  ministerial^ 
and  he  cannot  obstruct  the  oroceedines  by 
refusing  to  put  them ;  for,  it  he  could,  his 
power  woula  be  equal  in  effect  to  that  of  an 
mtegral  part ;  and  it  woidd  be  a  strange  sole- 
cism indeed,  if,  at  the  same  time  that  all  the 
afiairs  of  the  government  were  to  be  mana^ 
and  ordered  by  the  opinions  of  a  majority, 
the  president  could  prevent  such  opinions 
from  ever  being  collected ;  and,  at  the  same 
time  that  their  acts  would  bina  him,'  could 
prevent  such  acts  from  ever  takine  place. 
But  it  is  altogether  unnecessary  to  exfnam,  by 
argument  and  inference,  that  which  the 
Company,  who  are  certainly  the  best  judges 
•f  their  own  meaning,  have  explained  in  ab- 
8J[)lute  and  unequivocal  terms  by  their  instruc- 
tions sent  by  Mr.  Whitehill  to  Madras,  ex- 
planatory of  the  new  commission,  by  which 
they  expressly  declare  the  government  to  be 
in  the  major  part  of  the  council^  giving  the 
president,  or  the  senior  counsellor  m  his  ab- 
sence, z,  casting  vote,  and  directing  that  every 
quetti&n  prowaed  in  vriting  by  any  member  of 
council,  thaU  be  put  hy  the  governor^  or,  in  Ats 
mbience,  by  the  $enior  member  acting  as  preti- 
dent  for  the  time  being  ;  and  that  every  que^ 
tion,  carried  by  a  majority,  shall, be  deemed  the 
met  if  thepretideiU  and  council.  Indeed,  the 
uniform  oeterminations  of  the  directors  on 
€very  occasion  where  Uiis  question  has  been 
vefened  to  them,  have  been  in  favour  of  the 
miyoritv  of  council;  even  so  late  as  the  81  &t 
of  April  1777,  mbtequeat  to  the  diaturbaneei  at 
Madrat,  it  will  be  Ibund  upon  their  records  to 
have .  been  resolved  by  ballot,  <<  Thai  the 
powers  contendedfor  and  assumed  by  lord  Pigct, 
are  neither  knemn  in  the  constitution  rf  the 
Company,  nor  authorised  by  charter,  nor  wat^ 
ranted  by  any  orders  or  instructions  ^the  court 
^directors,"  Itis  clear,  therefore,  beyond  all 
controversy,  that  the  jMresident  and  council 
were,  at  all  times,  bound  and  concluded  by 
the  decision  of  the  majority,  and  that  it  was 
his  duty  to  put  every  question  proposed  by 
any  member  of  the  boara. 

¥M  these  regulations  been  made  part  of  the 
«ar  commbsion,  they  might  have  been  consi- 
dered as  a  new  establishment,  and  not  as  a 
recognition  of  Hie  former  government;  and 
consequently  such  regulations,  subsequent  to 
the  disturbances,  could  be  no  protection  for 
the  muority  acting  under  the^rm«r  commis- 
tbn ;  but  the  cautio^  of  the  East  India  Com- 
pany, to  exclude  the  possibility  of  suih  a 
construction,  is  most  striking  and  remark- 
able :  sitting  down  to  frame  a  new  commis- 
sion under  the  immediate  pressure  of  the  dif- 
ficulties that  had  arisen  from  the  equivocal 
expressions  of  the  former ;  they,  nevertheless, 
adopt  and  preserve  the  very  same  words  in  all 
the  parts  on  which  the  dispute  arose,  the  two 
commissions  <)iflrering  in  nothine  except  in 
the  Medal  pieamble  restoring  lord  Pieot; 
and  the  object  of  this  caution  is  self-evioen^ 
hecaiiMp  i4  instead  of  thus  preserving  the 


same  form,  and  sending  out  ooDateral  una 
structions  to  expUun  it,  to^y  had  rendered  the 
new  commission  more  precise  and  unequivo- 
cal by  new  modes  <tf  expression,  it  woula  have 
carried  the  appearance  of  a  new  establishment 
of  what  the  government  should  in /iiltM^  be, 
and  not  as  a  recognition  and  dennition  of 
what  it  always  had  been ;  but  by  thus  using 
the  same  form  of  commisaon,  and  accom- 
panying it  with  explanatory  regulatioos^ 
they,  Myond  all  dispute,  pronoimced  the 
former  commission  always  to  have  implied 
what  they  expressly  declare  the  latter  to 
be,  as  it  is  impossible  to  suppose  that  the- 
Company  would  make  use  of^the  same  form 
of  words  to  express  delegations  of  authority 
diametrically  opposite  to  each  other.  Bu^ 
takin«[  it  for  argument* 3  sake,  to  be  a  new 
estabUshment  rather  than  a  recognitioiiy 
still  it  is  a  strong  protection  to  the  defen- 
dants. If  the  question^  indeed,  were  coo* 
ceming  the  regularity  of  an  act  done  fay  the 
majority,  without  the  president,  coming  be- 
fore the  Court  by  a  person  claiming  a  fian- 
chise  under  it,  or  in  any  other  dvU  shape 
where  the  constitution  of  the  government  was 
in  issue,  my  argument,  I  admit,  would  not  hold; 
the  Court  would  certainly,  in  suck  cmat^  be 
obliged  to  confine  itself  stnctly  to  the 
sion  of  government,  and  such  explanatocy  c 
stitutions  as  were  precedent  to  uie  act,  tne 
g[ularity  of  wldch  was  the  subject  of  diacna- 
sion;  but  it  is  very  difierent  when  men  are 
prosecuted  cri$ninaU%f  for  subvertuig  a  con- 
stitution,  and  abusmg  delegated  authori^ : 
they  are  not  to  be  punished,  I  trust,  far 
the  obscurity  of  their  employers'  commia- 
sionsj  if  they  have  been  fortunate  enou^ 
ndtwi^tanoing  such  obscurity,  to  conslnie 
them  as  they  were  intended  by  their  authors : 
if  their  emj^loyers  declare,  even  afleranact 
done.  This  u  whalt  we  meant  should  be  our  go- 
vemment,  that  ought  to  be  sufficient  to  sanc- 
tion previous  acts  that  correspond  with  sudt 
declarations,  more  especially  declarations 
made  on  the  spur  of  the  occasion  which  sudi 
previous  acts  had  produced ;  for  otherwise 
this  monstrous  supposition  must  be  admitted, 
viz.  That  the  Company  had  enlar^ged  tfaa 
power  of  their  servants,  because  they  faad^ 
m  defiance  of  their  orders,  assumed  them 
when  they  had  them  not ;  whereas,  the  re^ 
sonable  construction  of  the  Company's  subse* 
quent  proceeding,  is  this :  It  is  necessary  that 
our  council,  on  the  president's  refusing  to  pet' 
form  his  duty,  should  have  such  powers  of  acting 
WITHOUT  HIM,  as  they  have  assumed  ia  the  late 
emergency;  the  obscurity  cf  our  oommissioai 
and  instructions  has  afforded  a  pretence  ef  r»- 
sistance,  which  has  dSuged  our  servants  esthar 
to  surrender  the  ^irit  of  their  trusts,  or  t$ 
violate  the' form ;  to  prevent  sstck  ^spades  ta 
fidure,  we  do  that,  hitherto  uxkiiowk  ;  w$ 
make  a  regular  form  of  goderwtxntf  smd,  at  tka 
same  time,  prescribe  a  rule  cf  adtwa  ta  case  H 
should  not  act  up  to  the  end  of  its  present  iatti* 
i  tutUm^  toprc9ast  m  €seroi9c  <i  diicrvfm  W» 


lies] 


and  Merifjbr  dq^mng  Lord  PIgai. 


A.  D-  177* 


[1870 


mp^,  ^poMiUf  to  be  avoided  in  every  gcvernr 
mentf  out  more  especial^  in  weh  «f  are  Ju5or- 
dinate.  Therefore,  [my  lord,  whether  the  late 
instructions  he  considered  as  explanatory,  or 
enacting,  they  ought  to  be  a  protection  to  the 
•  defendants  in  a  criminal  courtf  unless  when 
their  employers  are  the  prosecutors.  Neither 
iiarliament,  nor  the  crown,  ought  to  interfere; 
but,  as  they  have  done  it,  no  evidence  ought 
to  have  convicted  them  of  assuming  the 
powers  of  government,  and  obstructing  the 
company's  service,  but  the  evidence  <n  the 
directors  of  that  Company  under  whom  they 
acted.  They  oueht  not  to  be  judged  by  blind 
lecords  and  parchments,  whiui  the  authors  cf 
tiem  are  at  h4uui  to  explain  them.  It  is  a 
shocking  absurdity  to  see  men  convicted  of 
^  abusing  trusts,  when  the  persons  who  gave 
*  them  are  neither  prosecutors  nor  witnesses 
agunstthem. 

The  ordinaiy  powers  of  the  government  of 
Madras  being  thus  proved  to  fa£ve  resided  in 
the  nuyority  of  the  council,  it  now  only  re- 
mains to  shew,  by  a  short  state  of  the  evi- 
dence, the  necessity  which  impelled  the  extra- 
ordinary, and  otherwise  unwanantable  exer- 
^se  of  such  powers  in  suspending  and  impri- 
soning lord  rigot ;  for  they  once  more  enter 
«  protest  against  being  thought  to  have  as- 
sumed and  exercised  such  power  as  incident 
to  their  commission^  while  the  government 
jBubsisted.  It  is  their  business  to  show,  Uiat, 
as  lone  as  the  government  continued  to  sub- 
sb^  th^  faitluully  acted  their  narts  in  it; 
and  that  it  was  not  till  after  a  total  subversion 
cf  it,  by  an  arbitrary  suspension  of  the  go- « 
▼eming  powers,  that  they  asserted  their  own 
•nghts,  and  restored  the  government  by  re- 
suming them. 

On  the  8th  of  July,  lord  Pigot  refused,  as 
Ipresident,  to  put  a  question  to  the  board  (upon 
the  regular  motion  of  a  member),  for  rescind- 
ins  a  resolution  before  entered  into.  This 
leSisal  left  the  nuyoiity  no  choice  between  an 
absolute  surrender  of  their  trusts,  and  an  ex- 
ercise of  them  without  his  ministerial  assist- 
ance; there  was  no  other  alternative  in  the 
absence  of  a  superior  coercive  authority^  to  com^ 
fel  him  to  a  specpic  performance  of  his  duty ; 
t>ut  they  prooeeoed  no  fiirther  than  the  ne- 
cessity justified;  they  did  not}  extend  the  ir- 
regulanty  (if  any  there  was)  beyond  the  poli- 
tiod  urgency  of  the  occasion. — ^Althoueh  Uieir 
constitutional  lights  were  infringed  by  the 
president's  chum,  they  formed  no  plan  for 
their  eeneral  vindication;  but  contented 
themselves  with  declaring,  on  that  particular 
occasion,  that,  as  the  government  re^ad  in 
tkemf  the  president  ought  not  to  refiise  putting 
the  question,  and  that  the  resolution  ought  to 
beVesdnded. 

When  the  pre^dent  again  refused  to  put 
tbe  qoestioa  in  the  month  following,*  for 
taki^  onto  consideration  the  drauriils  of  in- 
Vtnictions  to  colonel  fttuarl  (which  was  the 
iwmediatf  caaae  of  all  Hm  disturbances  that 
Mtoffd)y  ^Nf  a|M»  paeaefvfd  Iha 


deration^  and  never  dreamt  of  aaj^  fiurthar 

vindication  of  their  authority,  thus  usurped, 
than  should  become  absolutely  necessary  for 
the  performance  of  the  trusts  delegated  to  them 
by  the  Company,  which  they  considered  it  t» 
be  treachery  to  desert.  They  lamented  the 
necessity  of^departing  even  from  tbrm ;  and, 
therefore,  although  the  president's  resolution 
to  emancipate  himself  from  their  constitu- 
tional controul,  was  avowed  upon  the  public 
ininutes  of  the  consultations,  they  first  ad- 
journed without  coining  to  any  resolution  at 
all,  in  hopes  of  obtaining  formali^  and  regu- 
larity to  uieir  proceedings,  1^  the  president's 
concurrence  :^isappointed  in  that  hope  by 
his  persevering  to  refuse,  and  driven  to  the 
necessity  eitl^r  of  surrendering  their  legal 
authority,  or  of  devising  some  otner  means  of 
exercising  it' without  his  personal  concurrence, 
having  (as  hrfore  observed)  no  process  to  cons- 
pel  hm  to  give  it,  they  passed  a  vote  approving 
of  the  instructions,  ana  wrote  a  letter  to  col! 
Harper,  containing  orders  to  deliver  the  com- 
mand to  col.  Stuart ;  but  they  did  not  proceed 
to  sign  it  at  that  consultation,  still  hoping,  by 
an  aqjoumment,  to  gain  lord  Pigot's  sanction 
to  acts  legal  in  all  points  by  the  constitu- 
tion of  tiie  government,  except,  perhaps,  in 
wanting  that  yarm  which  it  was  his  duty  te 
give  them. 

The  use  which  lord  Pigot  made  of  this 
slowness  of  the  majority  to  vindicate  the  di- 
vided rights  and  spirit  of  the  government,  by 
a  departure  from  even  its  undecided  forms, 
notwithstanding  the  political  necessity  which 
arose  singly  fix>m  his  own  illejgal  renisal,  is 
very  luckily  recorded  by  one  of^bis  lordship's 
particular  friends  in  council,  and  a  party  te 
the  transaction,  as  it  would  have  been,  other- 
wise, too  much  to  have  expected  full  credit  to 
it  from  the  most  impartial  mind. 

**  It  had  been  discussed/*  says  Mr.  Daliymple, 
**  before  the  council  met,  what  measures  could  be 
taken  to  support  the  government  established  by 
the  Compaf^y  in  case  the  majority  should  stiil 
persist  tn  their  resolution  to  come  to  no  compro- 
mise  or  reference  of  the  matter  in  question,  to 
the  decision  of  the  court  of  directors,  but  to 
carry  things  to  extremity.  One  mode  occurred 
to  lord  Figot,  vig,  by  putting  colonel  Stuisrt  in 
arrest  if  he  obeyed  an  order  without  the  f  o- 
vemoA  concurrence.  To  this  many  objectums 
arose.  Colonel  Stuart  might  contrive  to  receive 
the  orders  without  the  garrison,  and  cons^- 
quently,  by  the  nem  military  regulations,  not  be 
liable  to  the  governor^  arrest :  if  he  was  af»- 
rested,  the  majority  would,  of  course,  refuse  to 
issue  a  warrant  for  a  court-martial,  4^nd  co9^Sh 
turn  and  disgrace  nmst  be  the  consequence. 

**  The  onfy  expedient  that  occurred  to  atw  of 
us,  SMS,  to  ground  a  charge  in  cau  of  making 
their  declaration  in  the  name  of  the  councU^ 
instead  of  the  president  and  eounoil ;  bnt  here 
an  apprehension  arose,  that  they  would  see  thie 
impropriety,  and  exoress  their  order,  not  in  the 
name  of  the  council,  as  they  had  hinted,  but  in 

9^^9    wa^iWe^    ^Cr     9^^w    pr^'^wwaewJ^w    sapww    w^WP»Vv#a%  pmssvi^^^ 


1271] 


19  GEORGE  IIL        Proceedings  agahut  George  StraHon  [ISTf 


taining  that  the  minority  consHtuiedtke  efficient 
hoard  cf  president  and  camicil.  In  this  case, 
ve  could  devise  no  measure  to  be  pursued  con- 
sistent with  the  rules  of  the  service ;  but  lord 
Figot  said  there  was  nojfear  qfthity  as  he  insisted^ 
the  ucretary  woould  not  dare  to  issue  any  order 
in  his  name  when  he  forbade  it.  It  was  impos- 
sible to  know,  whether  sir  Robert  Fletcher  would 
attend,  or  not ;  it  was  necessary  to  have  every 
thing  prepared^  that  nothing  might  be  to  be  dime 
in  council;  thi  Company s  or&rt  required  the 
charge   to   be  in    writing;    the  gotebnor, 

THERBFOREy  HAD   IN  HIS  POCKET  CHARGES  PRE- 
PARED   FOR   EVERY    PROBABLE    CONTINGENCY, 

whether  they  began  at  the  eldest  or  the  youngest, 
and  whether  the  form  was  an  order  from  them- 
selves, or  an  order  to  the  secretary  ;  and  whether 
sir  Robert  Fletcher  was  present,  or  not.  It  was 
ag^ud,  that  the  first  of  us  to  whom  the  paper 
woas  presented  for  signing,  $hould  inmeaiately 
hand  it  to  the  president,  who  was  then  to  produce 
the  charge ;  the  standing  ordert  directing  that 
members,  against  whom  a  charge  is  made,  should 
have  no  seat;  the  members  charged  were,  of 
course,  deprived  of  their  votes.  As  our  ideas 
nent  no  farther  than  relieving  the  governor 
from  the  compulsjon  the  majority  wanted  to  lay 
him  under,  it  wm  determined  to  suspend  no  more 
than  the  necessity  of  the  circumstance  required.** 

With  this  snare  laid  for  them  dunng  the 
interval  of  that  adjourhment,  which  their  mode- 
ration had  led  them  to,  the  council  met  on  the 
J28d  of  August,  and,  after  havine  recorded 
their  dissent  from  the  president's  illegal  claim, 
to  a  negative  on  their  proceedings,  by  refUsing 
to  perform  his  part  in  the  prosecution  of  them 
(though  strictly  enjoined  thereto  by  the 
standmg  orders  of  the  Company),  and  in  which 
jpefusal  he  still  obstinately  persisted,  they 
.entered  a  minute,  declaring  it  as  their  opinion, 
that  the  resolution  of  the  council  should  be 
carried  into  execution  ivithout  ^her  delay, 
and  that  the  instructions  to  colonel  Stuart, 
and  the  letter  to  colonel  Harper,'  should  be 
signed  by  the  secretary  by  order  of  council. 

This  minute  was  re^arly  signed  by  a 
•mtuority,  and  the  president  liavine  again 
positivelv  refused  his  concurrence,  Uiey  pre- 
pared a  letter  to  Mr.  Secretary  Sullivan,  ap- 
provmg  of  the  instructions  to  colonel  Stuart, 
and  the  letter  to  lieutenant-colonel  Harper. 

The  letter  thus  written^  in  the  name  of  the 
majority,  and  under  their  most  public  and 
avowed  auspices,  it  was  the  immediate  purpose 
of  alt  of  them  to  have  ugned  in  pursuance  of 
the  minute  they  had  just  befoie  ddivered  in, 
expressive  of  their  authority  to  that  purpose ; 
.but  the  president,  according  to  the  trigenious 
plan  .preconcerted  during  the  adjournment, 
'  anatdied  the  paper  from  Mr.  Brooke  after  he 
and  Mr.  Stratton  had  signed  it,  before  the  rest 
of  the  UMyority  could  put  their  names  to  it, 
and  pulling  a  written  accusation  out  of  his 
pocket.'  charged  them  as  being  guilty  of  an 
act  subversive  of  Uie  government;  put  the 
question  of  suspension  on  both  at  once,  and 
ordered  the  iecretary  to  take  neither  of  their 


votes,  which,  accordh^  to  Mr.  Dalrympl^t 
economical  scheme  of  il^aiity,  exactly  got  rid 
of  the  majori^,  by  his  own  (the  accuset*s) 
casting  vote. 

The  weakness  and  absurdity  of  the  prineipU 
(if  it  deserves  the  name)  on  which  this  sus- 
pension was  founded,  creates  a  difficulty  in 
seriously  Exposing  it  by  argument ;  yel^asit 
produced  all  the  conseauences  that  mlowed,! 
pannot  dismiss  it  wittiout  tlie  following  re- 
marks: 

First,  It  was  a  gross  violatioD  of  the  ooosthu- 
tion  of  the  government,  even  adnutUng  kwi 
Pigotto  have  oeen  that  integral partof  it,  wfaick 
he  assumed  to  be,  as  the  establishment  of  that 
claim  could  only  have  given  him  a  negative  oat 
the  proceedinffs  of  a  maiority,  but  never  could 
have  enabled  nim  to  fabricate  .one  so  as  to  do 
positive  acts  without  one ;  the  sudden  charge 
and  suspension  of  Messrs.  Strattm  and 
Brooke,  and  breaking  the  miyoritv  by  putting 
the  question  on  both  atonce,wouiay  therefore, 
have  been  irregular,  even  supposing  the  con- 
currence of  the  ra^rity  to  the  act  which  coo- 
stituted  the  charge  a^unst  them,  to  have 
been  unknown  to  lord  Pigot,  and  the  minority 
who  voted  with  him:  but  when  their  con- 
currence was  perfectly  known;  when  the 
majority  of  the  board  had  just  before  pid^licly 
delivered  m  a  minute,  expressive  of  tbeir 
right  to  authorize  the  secretary  to  sign  the 
oraer,  if  the  president  refused  to  do. it;  when 
the  order  was  avowedly  drawn  out  in  pursu- 
ance of  that  minute,  which  made  the  whole 
one  act,  and  was  in  the  regular  course  of 
signing  by  the  majority,  who  had  just  beiote 
declared  their  authori^  to  sign  it^  the 
snatching  the  paper  under  such  circum- 
stances, while  unfinished,  and  arraigning 
those  who  had  already  signed  it  under  the 
auspices  of  the  majori^,  as  being  guiliv  of  an 
act.  subversive  of  the  ^veminent,  lodged  in 
that  majority,  and  turning  it  into  a  minoritr 
by  excluding  the  votes  of  the  parties  chargeo, 
was  a  trick  upon  the  governing  powers  which 
they  could  neither  have  submitted  to  with 
honour  to  themselves^  or  duty  to  their  eat- 
ployers. 

Such  a  power,  however,  lord  Pigot  assumed 
over  the  ^vemment  of  Fort  St  George,  by 
converting  an  act  of  the  majority,  rendered 
necessary  oy  his  refusd  to  do  his  duly,  into  a 
criminai  cliarge  a^Unst  two  members  actii^ 
under  their  authority,  and  by  a  device  too 
shallow  to  impose  on  the  meaner  under* 
standing,  cut  tnem  off  from  acting  as  part  of 
that  majority,  by  which  the  powers  of  the 
eovemment  were  subverted,  and  passed  away 
from  them  while  they  were  in  the  v«y  ad  of 
saving  them  from  subver^n. 

It  IS  unnecessary  to  say,  that  tbej  were 
neither  called  upon  in  duty,  nor  even  autho- 
rized, had  they  been  willing  lo  attend  the 
summons  of  a  board  so  constituted  by  the 
foulest  usurpation;  a  board  at  .which  they 
must  either  have  sacrificed  their  consciences 
and  judgments^  or-  become.the  van  epposoi 


127S] 


deponng 


A.  D.  1779. 


[1274 


of  measures  destructive  to  the  interests  of 
their  employers;  they  therefore  assemhled, 
and  answered  the  illegal  summons^  by  a  public 
ph>test  against  the  usurped  authority  by  which 
It  issued.  To  this  council,  assembled  foe  the 
single  purpose  of  sending  such  protest,  they 
did*  not,  indeed,  summon  the  subverters  of 
the  government  against  whom  it  was  levelled ; 
afiiurs  were  arrived  at  too  dangerous  a  crisis 
to  sacrifice  substance  to  forms,  which  it  was 
impossible  should  have  been  regarded.  '  Lord 
Pigot  and.  his  associates,  on  receiving  the 
protest  against  the  proeeedings  of  the  99d  of 
August,  completed  the  subversion  of  the  con- 
stitution, by  the  suspension  of  the  rest  of  the 
majority  ot  the  council,  and  ordered  sir  Robert 
Iletcher,  the  commander-in-chief,  to  be  put 
under  arrest,  to  be  tried  by  a  amrt-martialy  for 
asserting  the  rights  of  the  cnnl  sovemment  as 
a  member  of  .the  council.  This  is  positively 
sworn  to  have  been  done  by  lord  Pigot  before 
their  assumption  of  the  ^vemment  Here 
then  was  a  crisis  in  which  it  was  necessary  to 
act  with  decisioD;-and,  in  asserting  their  rights 
by  civil  authority,  to  save  the  impending  con- 
sequences of  tumult  and  blood.-— The  period 
of  temporizing  was  past,  and  there  was  no 
doubt  of  what  itwas  their  duty  to  do.  Charged 
with  the  powers  of  the  government,  they  could 
not  surrender  them  with  honour,  and  it  was 
impossible  to  maintain  them  with  safety  or 
efiect,  while  their  legal  authority  was  treated 
as  usurpation  and  rebellion.  They,  therefore, 
held  a  coundl,  and  agreed  that  the  fortress 
and  garrison  should  be  in  their  hands,  and 
under  their  command,  as  the  legal  represen- 
tatives of  the  Company,  and,  as  there  was 
every  thing  to  dread  from  the  intemperance 
of  lord  Pigot's  disposition,  they,  at  the  same 
time,  authorized  colonel  Stuart  to  arrest  his 
person  if  he  thought  it  necessary  to  preserve 
the  p^Ke  of  the  settlement;  colonel  Stuart 
t^  thmk  it  necessary,  and  his  person  was 
accordingly  arrested ;  but,  during  his  necessary 
confinement,  he  was  treirted  with  eveiy  mark 
of  tenderness  and  respect. 

Such,  my  lord,  is  the  case— and  it  is  much 
to  the  honour  of  the  defendants,  that  not  a 
ungle  fiict  appeared,  or  was  attempted  to  be 
made  appear,  at  the  trial,  that  did  not  stand 
avowed  upon  the  fece  of  their  public  proceed- 
ings; I  say,  literally  none;  tQr  I  will  not 
wheel  into  court  that  miserable  post-chaise, 
nor  its  flogged  postillion,  the  only  living  birth 
of  this  mountam  which  has  been  two  years  in 
its  labour ;  every  thing,  and  the  reason  and 
motive  of  eveiy  thing,  appeared,  and  still  ap- 
pear, to  speak  and  pleaa  for  themselves.  No 
cabals; — ^no  private  meetings; — vst^  coming 
prepared  tor  all  possible  events ;— no  secret 
manufiicUire  of  charges ;— no  tricks  to  over- 
come maj<Hitie8 ; — but  every  thing  fair,  open, 
and  manly,  to  be  judg^  of  by  the  justice  of 
their  employers,  the  equity  of  their  country, 
and  the  candour  and  humanity  of  the  civilized 
world.  As  loi^  as  the  eovemment  subsisted, 
pwts  appear  to  have  been  acted  init 


with  regularity  and  fidehty,  nor  was  it  till 
after  a  total  subversion  of  it,  by  the  arbitrary 
suspension  of  the  governing  powers  (and  in 
the  aluence  of  all  tuperiorvUUation),  that  they 
asserted  their  own  rights,  and  restored  the 
government  by  reassuming  them.  The  powers 
so  assumed,  appeal^  to  have  been  exercised 
with  dignity  ana  moderation;  the  necessary 
restraint  of  lord  Pigot's  person  was  not  tainted 
with  any  unnecessary  rigour,  but  alkvidted 
^notwithstanding  the  dangerous  folly  of  his 
friends)  with  every  enlargement  of  intercourse^ 
and  every  token  of  respect;  the  most  jealous 
disinterestedness  was  observed  by  Mr.  Stratton 
in  not  receiving  even  the  lawful  prc^ts  of 
magistracy ;  and  the  temporary  authority, 
thus  eierted  for  the  benefit  of  their  employ 
ers,  was  resigned  back  into  their  hands  with 
cheerfulness  and  submission;  resigned,  not 
like  rapacious  usurpers  with  exhausted  reve- 
nues, disordered  dependencies,  and  distracted 
councils,  but  with  such  large  investments, 
and  such  hMmonious  dispositions,  as  have 
been  hitherto  unknown  in  the  Company's  a^ 
fairs  in  any  settlement  in  the  East. 

Your  lordships  are,  therefore,  to  decide  this 
day  on  a  questiod  never  before  decided,  or 
even  agitated  in  any  English  court  of  justice; 
you  are  to  decide  upon  the  merits  of  ▲  azvo^^ 
LUTioN — which,  as  all  revolutions  must  be^ 
was  contrary  to  established  law,  and  not  le- 
^ly  to  be  justified.  The  only  revolutions 
which  have  happened  in  this  land,  have  been^ 
when  Heaven  was  the  only  court  of  appeal, 
because  their  authors  had  no  human  supe* 
riors;  and  so  rapidly  has  this  little  island 
branched  itself  out  into  a  great  empire,  that  I 
beUeve  it  has  never  occurred  that  any  dis- 
order in  any  of  its  foreign  chil  dependen- 
cies, has  been  the  subject  of  judicial  in- 
quiry ;  but,  1  apprehend  that,  since  the  em- 
pire has  thus  expanded  itself^  and  established 
governments  at  dittances  inaccesuble  to  it$ 
own  ordinary  visitation  and  superintendance, 
all  such  subordinate  governments,  all  poUtical 
emanations  from  them^  must  be  regulate^  by 
the  same  spirit  and  prmdples  which  animate 
and  direct  the  parent  state.  Human  laws 
neither  do  nor  can  make  provision  for  cases 
which  suppose  the  governments  they  establish 
to  f^U  ofiTlrom  the  ends  of  their  insututions; 
and,  therefore,  on  such  extraordinary  emer- 
gencies, when  fonm  can  no  longer  operate, 
&om>  the  absence  of  a  superior  power  to  com- 
pel their  operation,  it  strikes  me  to  be  the 
duty  of  the  component  parts  of  such  govern- 
ments, to  take  such  steps  as  will  best  enable 
them  to  preserve  the  spirit  of  their  trusts ;  in 
no  event  whatsoever  to  surrender  them,  or 
submit  to  their  subversion;  and,  by  consider* 
ing  themselves  as  an  epitome  of  the  consti- 
tution of  their  country,  to  keep  in  mind  the 
principles  by  which  that  constitution  has 
been  preserved,  and  on  which  it  is  esta- 
bhshea. 

These  are  surely  fair  premises  to  argua 
ftom^  whea  the  question  is  not  t^ckmcaljmti* 


1976] 


19  GEORGE  ill.        Proeeedbiti  agama  Gevrgg  Str^Mon        [lf7| 


^eof ioN,  but  jMi^MfMNi  and  ercvie.  Themem- 
Dtn  of  the  coioicily  in  the  majority  of  which 
the  efficient  eoverament  of  Madns  resided, 
were  certain^  as  deepl^^'  resfMnsible  to  the 
India  Coinpan}r  in  oonscienee,  and  on  eveiy 
firinciple  ot  society,  for  the  preservation  of  its 
cwistitution,  from  an  undue  eitension  of  lord 
Figot's  power,  as  the  other  component  parts 
6itki»  0>vemment  are  answerable  to  the  peo- 
ple of  &is  country  for  keeping  the  king's  pre- 
vogati^  within  its  legal  limits ;  there  can  be 
no  difference  but  that  which  I  have  stated, 
•amefy,  that  the  locie  is  subordinate,  and  the 
#lher  eupreiBe.  But  as,  in  the  total  absence 
«f  the  superior  power,  subordination  to  it  can 
ttiljr  operate  by  an  appeal  to  it  for  the  ratifr. 
eatioD  or  annulment  of  acts  already  done,  and 
lK>t  for  directions  what  to  do  (otherwise,  on 
«very  emergency,  government  must  entirely 
«ea8e),  I  trust  it  is  not  a  strained  proposition, 
•a  assert,  that  there  can-be  no  better  nde  of 
•elioii,  when  subordinate  rulers  must  act 
•emehow,  owins  to  Uieir  distioce  from  the 
Ibuntsin  of  authority,  than  the  history  of 
similar  emergencies  in  the  government  of 
tlieir  coimtry,  of  whKh  they  are  a  type  and 
an  emanation. 

Now,  mv  lord,  I  believe  there  is  no  doctrine 
tnore  exoloded,  or  more  repugnant  to  the 
spirit  of  tbe  British  goveramenC  beoMisf  the 
revolution  is  built  upon  its  niin,  than  that 
there  must  be  an  imminent  political  nooeik 
aity,  analogous  to  natural  necessity,  to  justify 
the  resistance  of  the  other  component  parts 
of  the  government,  if  one  steps  out  of  its  do- 
legation,  and  subverts  the  constitution ;  I  a,m 
not  speaking  of  technical  justification.— It 
would  be  nonsense  to  speak  of  law  and  a  re- 
volution in  the  same  sentence. — But  I  say, 
the  British  constitution,  which  is  a  govern- 
raent  of  law,  knows  no  greater  state  necessity 
than  the  inviolate  preservation  of  the  spirit  of 
a  public  trust  from  subversion  or  encrooch- 
sient,  no  matter  whether  the  countiy  would 
fall  into  anarchy  or  blood,  if  such  subversion 
Or  encroachment  were  suffered  to  pass  un- 
resisted.— ^A  good  Whig  woiUd  swoon  to  hear 
euch  a  qualification  of  resistance,  even  of  the 
resistance  of  an  integral  part  of  legisktion, 
much  less  of  a  part  merely  ministerial,  which, 
in  all  governments,  must  be  subonUnate  to 
the  legislature,  wherever  it  resides.  Sudi  a 
state  necessity,  analogous  to  natural  neces- 
sity, may  be  necessary  to  call  out  a  private 
man,  but  is  not  at  all  applicable  to  the  powers 
of  a  governments  The  defendants  <Ud  not 
act  as  ortiMi^€  men,  but  %»  goroermiuipcmen  f 
for,  altnough  they  were  not,  technicaSy  speak* 
ing,  the  gDvemment,  when  not  assembled  by 
the  president ;  yet  they  were  in  the  spirit  of 
law,  and  on  every  principle  of  human  society, 
the  rulers  of  the  settlement.— The  mleraia- 
tion  charges  the  act  as  done  by  them  in  the 
l^bhc  capacity  of  members  of  tbs  oeupoil,  in 
the  majority  of  which  the  government  «hd 
teside ;  and  tiieir  act  must,  therefore,  be  taken 
10  bt«puUic  aol,  for  the  prtstivailiiMi  of  their 

§ 


delegated  tmsli,  fen  mAnmnkm  bj  lord  Pi* 
got,  whkh,  on  the  trpe  prineiple  ii  British 
government,  is  sufficient  to  Mider  rssistance 
meritorious,  though  not  legaL 

Where  was  the  imminent  slate  liwtiwly  at 
the  Revolution  in  this  countiy }  KiiM  James 
suspended  and  disneosed  with  the  Jawsw — 
What  kws?— Penal  laws  apinst  both  Prists 
and  Preteatant  Disseutara.  Woukl  fiwand 
have  Men  into  oonftieioii  and  blaod  u  the 
pcfaecutedPltpisthad  been  suffiaiied  public^ 
to  humbug  himself  with  themjsteiy«ftn»w 
substaniiation,  and  the  IndeiMSBde^t  to  say 
his  pmyers  without  the  mediaaoAof  a  viaibia 
ehufoh^^Parliament,  on  ^  coirtary,  im- 
mediatej^  afier  the  Revolution,  npealed  many 
of  those  mtolerant  laws,  with  a  preamble  to 
the  act  that  abolished  tham,almos^oofiedTciw 
batim  fem  the  preamble  ii  the  proclanartion 
by  which  the  king  suspended  then;  yet,  that 
suspension  (although  kin^  James  was^  I  tnnty 
something  more  S[  an  mtagral  part  of  this 
flovemment  than  lord  Pigot  was  of  that  of 
Sladraa)  most  justly  cost  liim  the  crown  of 
these  kingdoms.  Whatwasthe  pRnci|ile<if 
the  Revolution?  I  hope  it  is  well  known,  mk- 
daratood,  and  revered  by  all  good  men.  The 
principle  was,  that  the  trustees  of  the  people 
were  not  to  suffer  an  infringement  of  the 
constitution,  whetktrfoT  good  orfmt  eoU.  All 
tyrants  are  plausible  and  cunnug  enoiigh  to 
give  their  encroachments  the  show  of  public 
90od.--JOur  ancestors  were  not  to  samnder 
the  ^trtt  of  their  trusts,  though  at  the  ei- 
pense  of  the  form,  and  thowch  urged  by  d» 
imminent  state  necessity  to  Afend  them  ;  no 
other,  at  least,  than  that  which  I  call,  and 
which  the  constitution  has  ever  since  called 
the  first  and  most  imminent  of  all  state  ne- 
cessities, the  inoioiaio  pretenHUum  afMegtOed 
trmits  from  umtrpatioH  amd  safoernoa.  This 
is  the  soul  of  tns  British  «wemment.— It  is 
the  very  being  of  eveiy  numan  inalitutioB 
^^fhich  desoves  the  name  of  government  ;— 
without  it,  the  most  perfect  inodel  of  aodetv 
is  a  painful  and  laborious  work,  which  amao^ 
man,  or  a  fool,  may,  in  a  moment,  kick  down 
and  destroy. 

Now,  why  does  not  the  principle  apply 
BEBB?  WhymaynotinferiorS)intbiBaiMeace 
of  the  jupener.yattiy,  though  not  l^dly,  at 
all  events  without  sanguinary  punishment^ 
do,by  ata»perafyart  io  he  mmntlU,  or 


Judy  bf  muk  luaeriar,  that  which  the  superior 
■nuktde  finally,  where  there  ia  no  appeal  at 
alll  Will  you  pumsh  men  mtio  wett  oblmed, 
from  their  ^stance  from  the  fbuntaia  or  au- 
thority, to  act  fi»r  themsalveey  osdy  for  h««» 
ing,  at  aUb  events,  refused  to  survesider  Ihoir 
tnists  N-MHily  for  havii^  saved  the  gowem* 
ment,  committed  to  theur  charge^  mn  aub* 
vendon  ?<*Hiiily  for  having  acted,  as  it  was  the 
ohiof  ^toyof  our  aaoeston  to  bava  actedl 
The  sauJntaide  dees  not,  to  be  aue^  hold 
threughaHi;hut  all«i»difieNiioe  iaineor 
finFOur;  ouraol  wasaotfenet^pleryandlbud, 
hul  ttiiyqraiy«ndeubmisiiiwt»— 


118773 


mnd  t^kerifjbr  dqxmag  Lord  PigoL 


A.  D.  177f. 


[1278 


nor  b  tbepresideiilof  ft  oiMuicily  eaual  only  to 
each  other  in^vidual  in  it,  witn  an  office 
merdy  nunisteriel,  to  be  compured  with  the 
condena^  executive  nugett^  of  this  great 
Idngl;^  goyemment,  with  a  negative  in  le- 
gislation. 

The  miiiorilY  of  the  cmmdl  iru  the  efficient 
covenunent  of  Madras^  or,  in  other  woivb^  the 
fegislatiire  of  the  settleBent,  whose  dedsiona 
the  Company  directed  sboiikd  be  the  older  by 
wliidi  each  one  was  to  act,  without  giving 
any  negati^  in  legislalion  to  tlie  pvendent^ 
whose  office  was  conseiuently  (as  I  hate  be- 
fore said)  ministarial.  Tina  ministerial  office 
lie  not  only  xefused  to  perform^  but  assumed 
to  himsclfy  in  eifect»  the  whole  government 
by  dissolving  a  nuyority  agftutsl  him.  Let 
me  out  thb  plain  question  to  the  Court.-^ 
Ou^l  Rich  arbitiarv,  illc|:al  dissohition  to 
have  been  submitted  to^-^-^Avht  the  majo- 
rity which  was,  in  fiwrt,  tiie  whm  goveitimettt 
in  substance,  spirit,  and  effect,  thoiiffh  not 
in  regular  form,  to  have  suffered  itself  to  be 
thus  crumbled  to  pieces,  and  destroyed  ?  Was 
there,  in  such  a  case,  any  safe  medium  be- 
tween Bufierins  both  spirit  and  form  to  go  out 
together,  and  uius  sacnficins  the  form  to  pre- 
serve the  spirit?  and  could  tne  powers  of  the 
government  have  been  assumed  or  exercised 
-without  bloodshed,  if  lord  Pigot  had  been  left 
sit  large?  I  appeal  to  your  lordships,  whether 
boman  ingenuity  could  have  devised  a  middle 
road  in  the  absence  of  all  superior  controul  ? 
Ouglrt  they  to  have  aoqiiiesced,  and  waited 
for  the  sentence  of  the  directors,  and,  on  his 
motioB,  played  at  shuttlecock  with  their  trusts 
810068  the  globe,  by  referring  back  questions 
to  Europe,  which  they  were  sent  out  to  Asia 
to  decide  ?  Where  representatiTes  douht  what 
are  the  wishes  of  ^eir  constituents,  it  may 
be  proper  to  make  such  appeals ;  but,  if  they 
were  subject  to  punishment  for  not  consenting 
to  them,  whenever  one  of  their  body  proposed 
them,  government  would  be  a  mere  mockery. 
It  wouui  be  in  the  power  of  the  president, 
whenever  he  pleasea,  to  cripple  ail  Uie  pro- 
ceedings of  the  council.  It  puts  me  in  mind 
of  the  embargo  once  laid  upon  com  by  the 
crown,  during  the  recess  of  parliament,  which 
was  said,  in  a  great  assembly,  to  be  but  forty 
days  ^rsnny  at  the  outside;  and  it  equally 
reminds  me  of  the  celebrated  cons^tional 
tetXy  which  was  made  on  that  occasion, 
wnich  it  would  be  indelioate  for  me  to  cite 
here,  but  which,  I  trust,  your  lordf^p  has 
not  forgotten  * 

Tins  would  have  been  not  only  forty  days 
tyranny  at  the  outside,  but  four  hundred  days 
tyranny  at  the  inside.— It  would  have  been  a 
Mse  surrender  of  their  trusts,  and  a  cowardly 
compromising  conduct  unworthy  of  magis- 
tnacy. 

But  the  defendants  are,  notwithatanding 


MAMiMka 


^^ibi 


lAAMMki 


*  liMrd  MaadMd'i  spesoii  btbe  Honie of  Lorcb 
agaiaitdw  <iKH<iiging  ponar.    Bse  Nmt  Furl.  Hht 


all  this,  covviCTEn ;  surely,  then,  ^ther  the 
jniry,  or  L  mistake.  If  what  I  have  advanced 
be  sound  or  reasonable  in  principle,  \h^  ver- 
dict must  be  unjust.  By  no  means.  All  I 
have  said  is  compatible  with  the  verdict. 
Had  I  been  on  the  jury,  I  should  have  found 
them  guilty ;  but,  bad  I  been  in  the  House  of 
Cofflsnons,  I  wmdd  have  given  my  voice 
against  the  prosecution.  Con  victiok  *  Good 
dod !  how  could  I  doubt  of  conviction,  when 
I  know  that  our  patriot  ancestors,  who  as« 
sisted  in  bringlnff  about  the  gkyrious  Revolu* 
tion,  could  not  nave  stood  justified  in  this 
Coinrt,thou^  king  William  sat  on  the  throne^ 
but  must  have  stood  self  convicted  crimiiials 
wi^out  a  plea  to  ofier  in  the&r  defence,  had 
not  parliament  protected  them  by  acts  of  in« 
demnil^! 

Nothing  that  I  have  said  could  have  been 
uttered  without  folly  to  a  Jury,  It  could  not 
have  been  uttered  with  less  foUv  to  your  lord* 
ship,  sitting  in  judgment,  on  this  case,  on  a 
neciai  verdict.  They  are  not  arguments  of 
fan  ;  thev  are  arguments  of  sfofe,  and  the 
state  ought  to  have  heard  them  before  it 
awarded  the  piosecution ;  but,  having  aw&uded 
it,  your  lardtkipi  now  git  in  their  place  to  do 
justice.  If  the  law,  indeed,  had  prescribed 
a  specUic  punishment  to  the  fact  charged^ 
the  judgment  of  the  law  must  have  followed 
the  conviction  of  the  fact,  and  your  lordship 
.could  not  have  mitigated  the  sentence.  They 
could  only  have  suei  to  the  state  for  indem- 
nity. It  would,  in  that  case,  have  been  tho 
sentence  of  the  law,  not  of  the  judge.  But  it 
b  not  so  here'  A  judge,  deciding  on  a  mis- 
demeanor, is  bouna  in  conscience,  in  the  si* 
lenre  of  law,  not  to  allot  a  punishment  be* 
yond  his  opinion  of  what  the  law,  in  its  dis- 
tributive justice,  would  have  specifically  al# 
fotted. 

My  lord,  if  these  arguments,  drawn  from  a 
reflection  on  the  principles  of  society  in  go* 
neral,  and  of  our  own  government  in  parti«. 
cular,  should,  from  their  unoonimonness  in  a 
court  of  justice,  fail  to  make  that  immediate 
and  decided  impression,  wliich  their  Justice 
would  otherwise  insure  to  them,  I  Mseech 
your  lordship  to  call  to  mind,  that  the  de- 
fendants who  stand  here  for  judgment,  stand 
before  vou  for  acts  done  as  the  rulers  of  a 
valuidile,  tmmcBsely  extended,  and  important 
country,  so  placed  at  the  very  extremity  of 
the  worid^  mt  the  earth  itselt  travels  round 
her  orbit  m  a  shorter  tiaie  than  the  Eastern 
dqai^  can  ht«ar  the  voioe  of  the  European 
superior;  a  coantiy  surrounded,  not  only  with 
nations  wfakh  polky,  but  which  Katmt^  vio- 
lated Nature !  has  made  our  enemies,  anid 
where  government  mnst,  therefera,  be  alws^s 
on  the  watch,  end  in  6ill  vigour,  to  maintain 
dominmn  overauMrtormnnbem  by  superior 
policy^ — dbe  conduct  of  men,  in  such  situa-* 
tioa%  ought  notauvely  to  be  measured  on  the 
narrow  SaHe  of  muaicinal  itm.^Their  acts 
must  net  be  j|udged  of  mce  the  acta  of  a  littlo 
corporation  withm  the  reach  of  a  mandamns^ 


1879]  19  GEORGE  III.         Proceedings  against  George  SiraHon         [1880 


or  of  the  executive  strength  of  the  state. — ^I 
cannot,  indeed,  help  borrowins  an  expression 
from  a  most  excellent  and  etoqueut  person, 
when  the  ^conduct  of  one  of  our  colony  go- 
vernments was,  Uke  this,  rather  hastil^r  ar- 
Taifi;ned  in  parliament.  ^  I  am  not  ripe," 
said  a  member  of  the  House  of  Commons, 
**  to  pass  sentence  on  the  ^vest  public  bodies, 
intrusted  with  magistracies  of  great  weight 
and  authority,  and  charged  with  the  safet^  of 
their  fellow-citizens  on  the  very  same  title 
that  I  am ;  I  really  think,  that  for  wise  minds, 
this  is  not  judicious ;  for  sober  minds,  not 
decent ;  for  minds  tinctured  with  humanity, 
not  miW  and  merciful."*  Who  can  refuse 
his  assent  io  such  admirable,  nianly  senti- 
ment<)? — What,  indeed,  can  be' so  repugnant 
to  humanity,  sound  policy,  decency,  or  justice, 
as  to  punish  public  men,  acting  in  extremities 
not  provided  for  by  positive  institution,  with- 
out a  corrupt  motive  proved,  or  even  cbarsed 
upon  them  ?  I  repeat  the  words  a^^,  that 
every  man's  conscience  may  force  him  to  fol- 
low me,  wUhotU  a  corrupt  motive  proved,  or 
even  charged  upon  them. 

Yet  it  hsls  been  said,  that  public  example 
ought  to  wei^h  heavily  with  the  Court  in 
pronouncing  judgment. — ^I  think  so  too.— 
ft  ought  to  weigh  hearvily  indeed ;  but  all  its 
weight  ought  to  be  placed  in  the  saving,  not 
in  Uie  vindictive  scale.  Public  example 
requires  that  men  should  be  secure  in  the 
exercise  of  the  great /iu6/ic  duties  they  owe  to 
magistracv,  which  are  paramount  to  the  obli- 
gations of  obedience  tney  owe  to  the  laws  as 
private  men.  Pu  blic  example  requires  that 
no  magistrate  should  be  punished  for  an 
error  in  judgment,  even  in  the  common  course 
of  his  cluty,  wluch  he  ought  to  know,  and  for 
which  there  is  a  certain  rule ;  much  less  for 
an  act  like  this,  in  which  he  must  either  do 
wrong  by  seizing  the  trust  of  another,  or  do 
wrong  by  surrendering  his  own.  —  Public 
EXAMPLE  reauires  that  a  magistrate  should 
stand  or  fall  fcy  his  heart; — that  is  the  only 
part  of  a  magistrate  vulnerable  in  law  in  every 
civilized  country  in  the  world. — Who  has 
wounded  the  Defendants  there  ?  Even  in 
this  fertile  age  of  perjury,  where  oaths  may 
be  had  cheap,  and^vhere  false  oaths  might 
be  safe  from  the  distance  of  refutation,  no  one 
champion  of  falsehood  has  stood  forth,  but 
the  whole  evidence  was  read  out  of  a  book 
printed  by  the  defendants  themselves,  for' the 
inspection  of  all  mankind. 

What,  then,  has  produced  this  virulence  of 
prosecution  in  a  country  so  famed  for  the  hu- 
manity of  its  inhabitants,  and  the  mildness 
of  its  laws  ? — I'he  death  of  lord  Pigot  during 
the  revolution  in  the  ^aoernmenti  Stranee, 
that  malice  should  conjure  up  so  improbable 
ixk  insinuation,  as  that  the  defendants  were 

*  See  Mr.  Barke't  speech  in  tlie  Hoaie  of  <Jom- 
mons,  on  moring  his  Resolutions  for  Conciliation 
with  America  ;  March  ft%,  1775.  New  Pari.  Hut 
vol.  18»  p.  503. 


interested  in  that  unfortHJMtte  event;  no  event, 
indoed,  could  be  to  tliem  more  truly  un- 
fortunate.    If  lord  Pigot  had  lived  to  re- 
turn to  £nglan(^,  this  prosecution  had  never 
been. — His  guilt  and  nis  popularity,  gained 
by  oth^  acts  than  these,  would  have  been 
the  best  protection  for  their  friendless  in- 
nocence.    Lord  Pigot,  besides  many  con- 
nexions in  this  country,  had  a  brother,  who 
has,  and  who  deserves  to  have,  many  friends 
in  it. — I  can  judge  of  the  zeal  of  his  friends, 
from  the  respect  and  friendship  1  feel  for  him 
myself;  a  zeal,  which  might  have  misled  iHe, 
as  it  has  many  better  and  wiser  than  /,  if 
my  professional  duty  had  not  lod  me  to  an 
earlv  opportunity  Of  correcting  prejudice  by 
truth.— 'Indeed,  some  of  the  darkest  and  most 
dangerous  preiudices  of  men  arise  from  the 
most  honourable  principles  of  the  mind.— > 
When  prejudices  are  caught  up  from  bad  nas- 
sions,  the  worst  of^men  feel  intervals  of  re- 
morse to  soflen  and  disperse  them ;  but  when 
they  arise  from  a  generous,  though  mistaken 
source,  they  are  hugged  closer  to  the  bosom, 
and  the  kindest  ana  most  compas^onate  na- 
tures feel  a  pltasure  in  fostering  a  blind  and 
unjust  resentment. — This  is  the  reason,  that 
the  defendants  have  not  met  with  that  protec- 
tion from  many,  which  their  meritorious  pub- 
lic conduct  entitled  them  to,  and  which  has 
given  rise  to  a  cabal  against  them  so  un- 
worthy the  legislature  of  an  enliehtened  jieo- 
ple ;  a  cabal  which  would  stand  forth*  as  a 
striking  blot  upon  its  justice,  if  it  were  not 
kept  in  countenance  bv  a  happy  uniformity  of 
proceeding,  as  this  failing  country  can  well 
witness.,— n^  believe^  indeed,  this  is  the  first 
instance  of  a  criminal  trial  in  England,  can- 
vassed for  like  an  election,  supported  by  de- 
famation, and  publicly  persisted  in,  in  the 
face  of  a  court  of  justice,  without  the  smallest 
shadow  of  evidence.  '  This  deficiency   has 
compelled  the  counsel  for  the  crown  to  sup- 
ply the  baldness  of  the  cause-  with  the  most 
foreign  invective ;   foreign,  not  only  in  proof, 
,  but  in  accusation.    In  justice  to  them,  I  use 
the  word  compelledy  as,  I  believe,  none  of 
them  would  have  been  inclined,  from  what  I 
know  of  their  own  manners  and  dispositions^ 
to  adopt  such  a  conduct  without  a  most  im* 
minent  Westminster»haU  necessity,  -viz.  that  of 
saying  something   in   support  of  a  cause, 
which  nothing  but  slander  and  finlsehood  coukl 
support.     I%eir  duty  |is  public  and  privede 
men  was,  perhaps,  as  incompatible  as  the 
duty  of  my  clients;  and  they  have  chosen, 
like  them,  to  fiilfrl  the  public  one ;    and,  in- 
deed, nothing  less  than  the  great  ability  and 
elocjuence  (1  will  not  say  the  propriety)  with 
which  that  public  duty  was  fumUed  at  the 
trial,  could  have  saved  the  prosecution  from 
ridicule  and  contempt     As  for  us,  I  am  sure 
we  have  lost  nothing  with  the  world,  or  with 
the  Court,  by  our  moderation ;  nor  could  the 
prejudices  against  us,  even  if  the  trial  had 
not  dispelled  them,  reach  us  within  these  ve- 
nerable   wails.-^NgthiDg,    unsupported  by 


1S8I  j  ^ni  mherstjbr  eUponng  Lord  Pigot.  A.  D«  1779. 


[128S 


evidence^  that  has  been  said  here,  or  any 
'where,  will  have  any  other  effect  upon  the 
Court,,  than  to  inspire  it  with  more  aoundant 
caution  in  pronouncing  judgment. — ^Jiidees  in 
this  count^  are  not  expected  to  shut  jtnem- 
•elves  up  from  society ;  and,  therefore,  when 
a  subject  that  is  to  pass  in  judgment  before 
ihem,  is  of  a  public  and  popular  nature,  and 
'i)ase  arts  have  been  used  to  excite  prejudices, 
it  will  only  make  wise  and  just  magistrates 
(such  as  I  know,  and  rejoice  that  I  am  ad- 
are8sitt|[  ravself  to)    the  more   upon  their 
guard,  risidly  to  confine  all  their  vi^ws  to  the 
<cecora  of  the  charge  which  lies  before  them, 
-mnd  to  the  evidence  by  which  it  has  been 
proved,  and  to  be  doubly  jealous  of  every  ave- 
nue, by  which  human  prejudices  can  force  their 
-ivavto  mislead  the  soundest  understandings, 
4tQa  to  harden  the  most  upright  hearts. 

Mr.  Attorney  General  (in  reply)  said,  that 
if  justice  was  not  baffled,  this  case  would 
prove  an  excellent  precedent.  He  observed, 
-that  the  affidavits  of  the  defendants  were  sin- 
gularly conceived :  they  look  like  memorials 
to  the  Court  for  preferment.  They  say  they 
got  nothing  by  the  revolution;  omittmg  to 
state  the  immense  list  of  friends  and  depen- 
dants, for  whom  they  provided  at  Madras. 
He  called  God  to  witness,  that  he  was  not 
convinced,  that  the  letter  of  the  95th  of  Au- 
gust did  not  import  an  intention  to  assassi- 
nate. When  the  defendants  determined  to 
usurp  the  government  and  imprison  lord 
Pigot,  they  did  not  foresee  all  the  dangers 
of  such  an  attempt :  but  afler  the  alarm  which 
it  produced,  they  began  to  apprehend,  that 
if  his  lordship  should  regain  his  liberty,  their 
design  could  not  be  effected— the  letter  of 
tbe  S&th  was  conseouent  on  a  commotion  in 
the  settlement ;  ana  as  an  order  to  major 
Home,  (who  had  before  received  a  military 
order  for  his  conduct),  or  as  to  any  thing 
except  to  convey  the  hint  respecting  his 
lordship's  life,  that  letter  was  totally  absurd. 
Itwas  followed  on  the  S7th  by  an  attempt  to 
execute  it,  by  removing  his  lordship  at  twelve 
o'clock  at  night,  by  Eidingtoun,  the  man,  of 
all  Qthers,  the  most  likely  to  create  an  alarm, 
and. to  occasion  resistance;  and  it  produced 
that  effect :  lord  Pigot  refused  to  go :  and  if  it 
had  not  been  for  the  steadiness  of  the  Euro- 
pean artilleiy-men,  in  all  probability  hn  life 
musi  have  answered  for  U,  It  is  observable, 
too.  that  in  the  postscript  of  the  letter  of  the 
45thy  there  is  a  party  of  the  nabob's  horse 
moitioned,  as  obtained  for  such  purposes  as 
nk^jor  ^pme  should  see  necessaiy.  On  the 
night  of  the  S7th,  there  was  a  party  of  the^ 
liorse  actually  .stationed  on  tne  road.  Mr. 
Attorney  General  i^,  he  did  not  suppose 
tl)is  a  lyi]^  in  wait  to  assassinate.  But  the 
injference  fi>m  )he  whole  was.  that  a  scuffle 
was  to  ensue,  in  which  his  lordship  was  to  be 
disnatched.  (He  said  much  stress  had  been 
laid  nn  the  ezraession,  ^  thii  you  are  to  tn- 
Hmtiie  to  himr)   He  observed,  that  u»  ord^ 

VOL.  XXI. 


to  produce  the  effect,  to  cause  a  tesistance,  it 
was  necessary  his  lordship  should  be  informed 
of  it.  It  is  said  by  the  defendants,  that  they 
only  meant  to  intimidate  lord  Pigot :  it  is  clear, 
then,  the^r  meant  his  lordship  should  believe, 
that  they  intended  to  carry  their  menace  into 
execution.  Suppose  tliere  had  been  an  at-, 
tempt  to  rescue,  and  the  death  of  lord  Pi^t 
had  ensued,  could  the  defendants  have  ssid, 
tliat  their  orders  were  exceeded,  for  that  they 
only  meant  to  intimidate  ?  He  observed,  Uutt 
major  Home  in  his  affidavit,  which  was  read 
for  the  defendants,  does  not  attemjytto  say, 
that  if  the  order  to  remove  lord  Piaot  had 
been  persisted  in,  his  lordship's  death  would 
not  have  ensued.  He  concluded  with  saying, 
that  for  his  own  part,  he  would  rather  that 
the  Court  should  discharge  the  defendants 
without  any  punishment,  and  with  a  recom- 
mendation to  the  East  India  Company,  than 
that  they  should  inflict  a  small  nne,  whic)^ 
would  be  but  a  mockery  of  justice. 


February  10th, 

Judgment  of  the  Court.* 

Mr.  Justice  Ashhurst ;  (Wilks  the  senioi 
puisne  judge  absente.) 

Before  I  proceed  to  give  the  judgment  of  the 
Court  in  the  cause  of  the  King  v.  Stratton,  iu 
order  that  the  munds  and  reasons  of  our 
judgment  may  Be  the  be.tter  understood,  1 
shall  go  a -little  at  large  into  the  case,  and 
into  the  several  heads  of  aggravation  on  the 
one  hand,  or  extenuation  on  the  other,  which 
arise  out  of,  or  have  been  introduced  into  the 
case. 

This  was  an  information  that  was  filed 
against  the  four  defendants  by  the  Attorney- 
(^neral; — ^the  first  count  ot  which  states, 
that  the  East  India  Company  were  possessed 
of  Fort  St.  George;  that  thev  appointed  lord 
Pigot  governor  and  commander  in  chief  of  the 
fort,  earrison,  and  of  the  Company's  troops 
and  forces  therein ;  they  also  appointed  lord 
Pigot  president  and  governor,  and  the  defen-. 
dants,  along  with  several  others,  to  be  of  the 
council,  and  they  gave  to  the  president  and 
council,  or  the  major  part  of  tnem,  the  full 
powers  of  the  government,  subject,  neverthe« 
less,  to  the  superintending  and  oontrollinf 
power  of  the  eovemor  and  council  of  Benga^ 
in  all  cases  wherein  they  were  invested  with 
that  power,  by  an  Act  made  in  the  13th  year 
of  his  present  majesty's  reign. 

The  information  states,  that  lord  Pigot 
arrived  in  India,  and  took  upon  himself  Sie 
government,  and  that  the  defendants  severally 
took  upon  themselves  and  accepted  the  office 
of  one  of  the  council. — It  states  the  instruc- 
tions given  to  the  president  and  council ;  by 
which,  among  other  thines,  they  were  directed 
to  take  the  most  effectual  measures  for  pro* 


*  Tins  Biporf  ii  rtpHaitd  firon  Iks  original  p«V 
liMiioii. 

.     4N 


12S8]  '         19  GEOacS  III.        Proceedi^  iligaiM  (harg^  StfuOon  [IBU 


tecting  thie  kine  of  Tanjore  and  his  family, 
and  to  inform  tiim  they  had  determined  to 
place  hhn  on  th6  throne.  It  states,  that  loni 
Pigot,  soon  after  his  arrival  in  India,  began  t» 
put  in  execution  his  orders  and  infitructions 
ibr  restoring  the  kine  jof  Tanjore ;  aad  that 
he,  with  the  council,  did  restore  him  Id  the 
throne^  and  was  about  to  proceed  in  the 
9ecuring  him  in  the  possession  of  his  terri- 
tories and  revenues,  but  that  the  defendants 
ikiaiiciously  and  seditiously  intending  to 
deprive  lord  Pigot  of  the  eovemment,  and  of 
his  office  of  president  ana  governor,  and  to 
prevent  him  from  dischaiging  his  duty,  and 
Iftie  tnist  reposed  in  him  in  carrying  the  said 
instructions  of  the  Company  into  enect,  and 
to  assume  to  themselves  tihe  government  and 
command  of  the  said  fort  and  garrison,  did, 
with  divers  others,  unlawfullj^  and  seditiously 
Ibrm  themselves  into  a  couBCtI,  and  did  confer 
the  command  of  the  army  upon  James  Stuart, 
and  did  order  htm  to  put  the  fort  and  garrison 
under  the  command  of  them,  the  defendants  ; 
and  that  if  any  resistance  should  be  made  to 
their  orders,  to  secure  the  person  of  lord 
Pigot ;  and  that  they  afterwards  did  actually 
arrest  and  imprison  lord  Pi«>t,  aiyl  by  force 
deprive  him  of  the  power  aim  ampacity  to,  &c. 
(8ec.  and  with  a  military  force  continued  him 
M  imprisoned  for  the  space  of  mne  months; 
and  during  that  time  mlawfoily  assumed  to 
themselves  the  government  of  th^  airmy,  and 
fort  and  garrison  of  Fort  St  George,  with  its 
dependencies. 

This  is  the  first  oouot.— The  second  as  to 
the  charges  is  pretty  much  the  same  with  the 
first,  only  it  drons  ah  the  introductory  matter; 
it  charges  the  defendants  with  the  assuming 
the  goveniment,  and  imprisoning  the  p^-son 
of  lord  «Pigot.— The  thfoe  last  counts  are 
different  from  the  two  first,  for  in  them  Uie 
assamptfon  of  the  government  is  dropped, 
aitd  the  charge  is  nothing  more  than  the 
iai^sonment  of  the  person  of  lord  Pigot,  he 
being  governor  of  Fort  St.  George. 

Upon  this  inforraatioB  the  defendants  hav^ 
been  found  guilty. 

If  the  assumption  of  the  governments  and 
taking  possession  of  the  fort,  had  been  with 
an  intent  to  draw  it  fiK>m  the  dominion  of  Uie 
crown  of  Great  Britain^  it  would  have  been 
h%h-trea8on ;  but  the  information  states  the 
ii^ient  of  the  defondadts  in  assuming  the 
government  to  be  to  substitute  themselves  ift 
the  place  of  those  in  whom  by  the  constitution 
it  was  vested,  and  that  in  subordination  to  the 
Bist  India  Company,  and  therefore  rightly 
treats  it  as  a  misdemeanor  only. 

•  Brthe  constitution  of  thegovemmentof  Fort 
St.  George,  the  powers  of  government  aire  lodged 
in  the  president  and  comKil,  but  subject  to  the 
controlling  |^wer  of  the  governor  and  council 
of  Beneat,  in  matters  or  poace  and  war,  or 
fcenctuiimgtk'ealies  with  any  Indian  princes  or 
powers,  rhey  are  likewise,  by-^ie-  terms  of 
this  act,  to  transmit  to  the  jgovemor  and 
<wvpcil  pf  Bengal,  advice  and  mtelligeooe  of 


all  transactiohs  and  mattere  wbMSter  lebfting 
to  the  government  or  the  imtengsto  of  the 
Company.  The  piesfidest  is  ail  inMral  part 
of  the  assembly,  but  when  tfae  omidch  ia  ttnl^ 
he  has  only  a  single  voioa  in  eoaHnoB  with 
the  rest  of  the  couneil,  except  in  catea  ef  n 
equaiity  of  numbers,  when  that  happettb  ha ' 
has  a  casting  voice.  He'  has  no  right  to  put  a 
negative  upon  any  act  of  the  eomdl;  ndit 
is  a  part  or  his  dut^  to  p«t  aajr  ^ae8tio&  pro* 
foaed  and  debated  m  the  couBoil. 

Having  stated  the  oanstitulm,  I  ahail  mem 
proceed  to  state  this  hittoiyof  the  cne,aMl 
the  flbveral  circametancfla  that  lead  to  the 
catastiophe  which  aftetwtvia  happenNi  m 
this  settlement. 

Ofk  the  «5th  of  lun^  177S,  a  letter  firatt 
colooei  Stuattto  air  ftdbert  Fletebcr,  daiei 
the  15th  of  JHiie,  was  prodaoed  at  the  eottndL 
by  which  he  represents,  that  as  the  oMnmand 
of  the  hroops  in  the  gairnsen  of  Taaybre  wiaa  at 
that  crisis  the  most  importaat  of  aay  WMkr 
that  presidency,  accoidmg  to  the  coone  ef 
military  sci<^ce,  it  beleneed  to  him  as  aei  ^  * 
in  command,  k^  case  sir  Robert  Fletdiery 
was  the  cooannandte  in  chief,  did  net  chi 

accept  it. ^Tlus  letter  ww  ordeied  t6  Me  w 

thetaMe. 

At  a  coMcli  the  8th  6f  July,  1?r6,  it  ha»<ng 
been  fesolved  ata  previous  coundl>  that  none 
of  the  m^nbbrs. should  visit  the  naheb,  Ut 
Robert  Ft^txrheUr  moved  to  retdnd  this  Msoh»i 
tion.  the  ptesid^nt,  lord  Pi|^  4tolares,  thet 
he  never  will  conMnt  that  the  questiMi  sheuii 
be  pert,  that  the  business  of  the  boat4  daght 
to  originate  with  the  president ;  he  lefaaea  t» 
put  wt  question  proposed  if  air  Ri4)M 
Fletcher,  and  insists  on  his  rigK  la  «egat|ii« 
any  questibn  being  pvt. 

On  the  Oth  of  Jtily,  the  m^ority  enter  Ifaetp 
protest  against  the  powoia  claimed  by  Aft 
president  as  unconfititatiiottd  and  arbitearf ^•^ 
Colonel  ^uart'a  letter  was  theft  taken  iMa 
oonsidetatton,  and  these  was  a  inafoiiljf  of 
seven  to  four  for  his  appokil«ient 

<M  the  lOth  of  Almost,  177«»  a  paMr  of 
instructions  for  oolohei  Stuart  wstt  bid  mSom 
the  council  for  their  oMisidptattoii.  1 
sident  again  proposed  Mr.  SMBsel%  gMt^ 
Taniore,  which  was  negatived  by  «x  lo  & 
— liie  draft  of  the  insuwcti^vna  la  qoIomI 
Stuart  was  then  read.  The  pAsidtet  dsdaiea 
he  never  will  give  his  aaHictieiiioaivf  ifiMTM^ 
tione  to  colonel  Stuart,  tiatil  his  rneasum  ia 
adopted  of  sendihl;  Mf .  Rolsel  to  Taipei*. 
Mr.  Floyer  desiring  that  HtUt  AMtioii  mi^  ha 
put ;  the  pr^sideM  declares,  thut,  for  the  n»* 
sons  he  has  before  alloged,  he  will  not  put  the 
question  at  thai  time :  upon  this  leftiial^  thft 
board  is  adjourned  till  ttoxt  dagp.-— The  «aM 
day  th«  question  waaagaia  iBi6)«od ;  thepmi 
d^nt  declared  th«t>  having  d«teitnbed  ftot  %ft 
1^  his  oonsbnt  to  eokmbl  Stuart^  gMnjg  m 
TahM^  until  Mr.  Itnseel  hMtdersdto  proc^ei 
;thidfker  likewise,  h«  woirid  mi  ^Uow  *» 
Imatter  lobe  now  i^iitattodal  the  board;  thft 
jMfthM  hiNrtver  ^ICHMI  miouM  tffWr 


£985] 


c%her$yjbr  deposing 


A.  D.  in9k 


opbikmsi  Slid  th«  instnictioBs  were  approved 
by  a  majority.-^Mr.  Macb^  nwwjed,  that  a 
Wtttr  be  prqMrad  for  colonel  Harper  to  give 
^  the  coHmand  to  ccrionel  SUiart.— The 
pretident  declares  it  as  his  opinion,  that 
without  his  name  to  the  ovders  to  colonel 
dtaart,  they  an  not  the  act  of  the  govern- 
■lent 

At  a  council,  !|9d  of  Ausust,  a  minute  was 
Mivered  in  by  the  majonty,  declaring  that 
the  president's  refusal  to  put  the  question  for 
teking  colonel  Stuart's  instructions  into  con- 
-aiderationy  was uneonstitutional  and  illegal; 
that  the  minority  are  obliged  to  assist  in  car' 
tying  the  orders  of  the  majority  into  execution; 
•ad  that  the  president  is  as  much  bound  by 
this  order  as  any  other  member,  and  declare 
it  as  their  opinion,  ^at  in  case  of  the  presi- 
dent's refusal  to  put  any  question  proposed 
by  any  member,  it  shall  be  the  duty  of  their 
secretary  to  put  such  question.~The  president 
desires  the  matter  may  rest  until  the  pleasure 
of  the  Company  be  kno|rn.— -TKe  majority 
insist  on  proceeding,  and  call  on  the  presi- 
dent to  direct,  that  the  secretary  should  sign 
-  the  instructions  to  colonel  Stuart,,  and  £e 
letter  to  colonel  Harper;  and  upon  his  re- 
Attal,  declare  that  they  look  upon  themselves 
as  authorized  so  to  do.-— The  president  de- 
dares  he  will  not  give  his  orders  to  the  secre- 
twry,  in  consequence  of  which  the  following 
letter  waswritten:  ^  Mr.  Secretary  Sullivan-- 
Sir;  We.  the  majority  of  the  board,  having 
af  proved  of  the  instructions  to  colonel  StuarS 
and  th^  letter  to  lieutenant  colonel  Huper ; 
and  the  president  not  only  having  refused  to 
sign  tiiem  himself,  but  also  reftised  to  order 
you  to  do  it;  we  are  reduced  to  the  disagree- 
able  necessity  of  directing  you  to  sign  the  said 
i&stnictions  and  letter  by  order  of  council, 
and  send  them  to  colonel  Stuart.    (Signed) 
George  Stratton,  Henrr  Brooke/'    As  soon 
as  the  letter  was  signed,  by  them,  the  presi- 
dent took  it  into  his  possession,  saying  he 
would  now  stop  it  where  it  was,  and  delivered 
in  the -following  paper:  "I  charge  George 
Stratton  and  Henry  Brooke,  esqrs.  of  beincr 
guilty  of  an  act  subversive  of  the  authority  of 
^vernment,  and  tending  to  introduce  -anar- 
chy, in  the  signing  orders  to  the  secretary  to 
give  instructions  to  colonel  Stuart,  which  have 
Bot  been  approved  and  passed  by  the  presi- 
dent and  the  council."    When  the  president 
took  the  paper,  the  otiiers  of  the  majority 
^^  about  to  sign  it,  but  were  prevented 
from  so  doing  by  the  paper  being  snatched 
ftom  the  hand  of  Mr.  Brooke.    The  president 
4hm  moves,  that  George  Stiitton  and  Heniy 
Brooke  be  now  suspended  from  the  Company's 
«ervioe,   until  tiie  Company's  pleasure   be 
known.    The  secretary  was  ordered  to  take 
«o  vote  from  Mr.  Brooke  or  Mr.  Stratton,  as 
^le  standing  orders  direct,  that  no  member 
shall  sit  in  council  when  a  charge  isdetivered 
iniMinst  him,  therefore  the  numbers  being 
^•qual,  it  was  carried  for  a  suspension  by  the 
'pmidenVs  casting  vote.— A  oot^kation  of 


liasa 


their  suspension  is  ordered  by  the  president 
to  be  sent  to  Mr.  Stratton  and  Mr.  Brooke. 

It  appears,  that  lord  Pigot  proceeded  to 
sUU  farther  acts  of  violence,  for,  on  the  23d 
of  August,  in  consequence  of  a  resolution 
come  to  in  a  council,  to  which  only  Mr.  Rus- 
sel,  Mr.  Stone,  Mr.  Dalrymple,  and  Mr.  Iat 
thorn  were  summoned;  he  suspends  Mr. 
Floyer,  Mr.  Palmer,  Mr.  Jourdan,  and  Mr. 
Mackay,  and  sends  them  a  notification  of 
their  suspension ;  an  order  was  likewise  issued 
for  the  arrest  of  sir  iRobert  Fletcher,  in  order 
that  he  might  be  tried  by  a  court-martial. 

I  forbear  commenting  on  these  proceedings 
of  lord  Pigot,  further  than,  in  general,  to  ob- 
serve, that  they  certainly  were  arbitrary  and 
illegal,  and  so  mdeed  it  was  admitted  by  the 
counsel  for  the  prosecution.    These  outrages, 
as  the  defendants  say,  were  the  causes  of  tneir 
assuming  the  government  and  imprisoning 
lord  Pigot.    It  was  left  doubtful  upon  the 
evidence,  whether  those  orders  of  lord  Pigot^ 
or  the  orders  signed  by  the  defendants  for  the 
arresting  of  lord  Pigot^  were  prior  in  point  of 
time;  lord  Pigot's  orders  are  dated  Friday 
afternoon,  S3d  of  August;  the  defendants'  or- 
ders at  the  heading  are  dated  Friday  evening, 
tiie  23d  of  August,  but  at  the  end  are  dated 
SSd  of  August,  three  o'clock,  p.  k.  ;  but  this 
matter  seems  to  be  very  amply  cleared  up  by 
the  defendants'  affidavits,  which  at  present 
stand,  uncontradicted,  for  they  say,  that  their 
order  veas  not  signed  or  formed  till  eight 
o'clock  in  the  evemng,  and  that  the  date  83d 
August,  three  o'clock,  p.  m.  was  a  mistake  in 
the  figure,  which  seems  probable,  as  the  head* 
ing,  as  I  said  before,  is  Friday  evening.   They 
have  further  sworn,  that  some  of  the  mem- 
bers were  actually  served  with  the  orders  of 
suspension,  and  sir  Robert  Fletcher  with  the 
order  of  arrest,  before  the  fbrmins  of  their 
order,  and  that  they  apprehended  danger  to 
their  persons  from  the  violence  of  lord  Pigot; 
and  they  farther  positively  say,  ^  That  the  re- 
moval and  suspension  of  lord  Pigot,  was  not 
the  result  of  any  premeditated  design,  but 
that,  on  the  contmy,  until  lord  Pigot,  and  his 
friends  in  the  minori^,  had,  by  artifice  and 
violence,  on  the  99d  of^Aug.  1776,  suspended 
these  deponents,  Stratton  and  Brooke,  for  the 
purpose  of  usurping  the  government ;  the  idea 
of  separating  themselves  from  the  minority 
had  not  even  entered  the  minds  of  these  do- 
ponents,  and  that  until  the  issuing  of  the  r^ 
solutions  and  orders  of  the  S3d  of -August,  for 
the  arresting  and  trying  sir  Robenrt  Fletcher 
by  a  court  martial  as  for  a  capital  offence, 
and  for  suspeciding  all  the  other  gentlemen  in 
the  majority,  an  intention  of  removing  lord 
Pigot  had  never  been  conceived  by  these  de- 
ponents." They  likewise  add,  in  another  part 
of  the  affidavit,  tiiat  at  the  time  they  took 
upon  themsdves  the  administration  of  the 
af&irs  dfthe  settiement,  they  did  then  verily 
believe,  that  by  the  nature  of  their  commis- 
sion, and  by  the  tenor  of  the  Company's  or- 
ders^ relative  to  the  poywers  of  the  president 


1287]  19  GEORGE  IIL         Procee4ings  againH  George  ShraUon         [I28S 


and  council^  they,  as  a  majority  of  the  coun- 
cil, had  a  competent  power  so  to  do;  and  that 
the  restraint  put  upon  the  person  of  lord  Pigot 
was  a  step  absolutely  necessary  to  give  effect 
to  the  power  they  then  conceived  to  be  vested 
in  a  majority  of  the  council,  independent  of 
the  president,  and  as  such,  justifiable  and 
legal.  And  Mr.  Sullivan,  the  secretary  (who 
is  a  disinterested  person)  says,  that  his  notion 
of  the  ^yemment  of  Fort  St.  Georse,  as  to 
the  majority  having  all  the  powers  of  govern- 
ment in  them,  was  the  ^ame  as  that  of  the 
defendants. 

The  comisel  for  the  prosecution,  by  way  of 
shewing  that  the  supposed  necessitv  was  not 
the  real  motive  which  actuated  the  defen- 
dants, have  endeavoured  to  prove,  that  their 
conduct  ]>roceeded  from  other  motives :  they 
have  assigned  two,  the  one,  that  the  acts 
they  have  done  were  done  to  prevent  lord 
Pigot  from  completely  fulfilling  the  instnxc- 
tions  of  the  Company  as  to  the  restoring  the 
rajah  of  Tanjore ;  the  other,  that  they  pro- 
ceeded from  some  corrupt  influence  either  of 
the  nabob  or  Paul  Benfield.  In  regpd  to  the 
first  of  these,  which  is  mentioned  m  the  first 
count  of  the  information,  though  not  by  way 
of  substantive  charge,  we  do  not  think  there 
IS  any  evidence  in  the  -cause  from  whence  it 
can  be  inferred ;  lord  Pieot,  in  his  letter  fVom 
Tanjore,  on  the  14th  of  April,  1776,  to  the 
council  of  Fort  St.  George,  says,  that  he  has 
restored  the  rajah  to  the  government  of  his 
country.  The  council,  ih  their  letter  to  the 
Company  of  the  14th  of  May,  1776,  says, 
''  The  rajah  is  put  into  the  full  possession  of 
the  whole  country  his  father  held  in  1762." 
Therefore  that  business  seems  to  have  been 
closed,  ^ud  of  course  the  motives  could  not 
be  to  prevent  that  from  being  done  which 
actually  was  done;  but  if  they  mean  to  con- 
nect with  this  the  claim  of  the  nabob,  ancl  to 
•av  he  could  not  be  in  complete  possession 
till  the  dispute  was  settled,  whether  the  rajah 
should  have  the  crop  which  was  upon  .the 
^und  at  the  time  he  was  restored,  or  whe- 
ther the  nabob  or  Mr.  Benfield,  claiming  un- 
der an  assignment  from  the  nabob,  should 
have  it,  as  the  expence  of  culture  was  paid 
with  the  nabob's  money:  in  this  view,  the 
imputation  will  appear  to  be  equally  unsup- 
ported when  I  come  to  consider  the  next 
bead,  namely,  the  supposed  cor^pt  influence 
of  the  nabob  and  Benfield.  The  ai&ir  of  Ben- 
field's  claims  was  closed  two  months  before 
the  dispute  happened,  which  gave  rise  to  that 
act  of  the  defendants  which  is  now  the  sub- 
ject of  discussion;  for  the  consultation,  when 
It  was  agreed  to  reconsider  Benfield's  claims, 
was  on  tlie^d  of  June,  1776 ;  on  the  13th  and 
14rth  of  June,  the  former  resolution  of  disal- 
lowing the  claim  was  rescinded,  and  the  claim 
allowed;  on  the  17th  of  June  an  explanatory 
minute  was  entered,  that  they  mean  not  to 
do  more  than  to  recommend  to  the  rajah  to 
see  that  justice  be  done,  leaving  the  manner 
and  time  to  himself,  and  that  they  had  not  an 


idea  that  they  ought  to  go  further  witboui: 
orders  firom  their  superiors.  Here  then  tha 
afibir  seems  to  rest ;  the  prosecutors  have  noC 
eiven  any  evidence  that  anyone  step  has 
Eeen  taken  from  that  time  to  this  relative  to 
this  business,  and  therefore  as  no  evidence  is 
given,  we  must  suppose  the  affiiir  rests  in  ths 
same  situation  as  it  did  on  the  13th  of  June, 
1776 :  but  it  is  not  left  on  presumption  only, 
for  the  defendants,  in  their  affidavit,' have  po- 
sitively sworn— *^  That  neither  the  nabob  of 
Arcot^  or  the  said  Paul  Benfield,  ever  had,  or 
had  cither  of  them,  to  the  knowledge  or  h%^ 
lief  of  the  deponents,  derived,  obtained,  or 
received  any  benefit  or  advantage  by,  fixxn, 
or  in  consequence  of  the  remo^  or  suspen- 
sion of  lord  Pigot;  and  that  he  was  not  so 
removed  or  suspended  with  a  view  to  accom- 
modate or  serve  them,  or  either  of  them  ;^ 
and  they  further  add,  '^  that  the  same  claims, 
as  they  verily  believe,  still  remain  just  as  thcrf 
did  on  the  17th  of  June,  1776 ;"  and  as  to 
any  corrupt  infiu^ce,  the  defendants  have 
positively  sworn  ^^  tliat  the  interest  of  Ben- 
field or  the  nabob  did  not,  in  any  respec^ 
operate  upon,  or  influence  them  in  their  con* 
duct,  in  the  removal  or  Suspension  of  lord 
Pigot,  or  in  any  of  the  transactions  which  aie 
the  subject  of  this  prosecution ;  and  that  they 
never  had,  nor  had  any  of  them,  or  any  otho' 
person  in  trust  for  them,  any  part,  share,  or 
int^est  in  the  claims  of  Benfield^  or  in  tha 
monies  due,  or  alleged  to  be  due,  m  respect 
thereof;  and  that  they,  nor  any  of  them,  did 
not  take,  accept,  receive,  or  expect  to  receive 
from  the  nabob  of  Arcot,  or  any  other  person 
or  persons  whatsoever,  any  sum,  or  sums  of 
money,  or  any  gratuity,  gift,  reward,  donation, 
or  present  of  any  kind  or  sort  whatsoever,  or 
any  profit,  benefit,  or  advantage  whatsoever, 
or  any  security,  bond,  engagement,  or  pro- 
mise for  any  sum,  or  sums  of  money,  gra- 
tuity, reward,  gifl,  donation,  or  present  of 
any  kind  or  sort  whatsoever,  or  any  pro* 
fit,  benefit,  or  advantage  whatsoever,  for 
or  in  respect^  or  on  account  of  their,  or  aziy 
of  their  votmg  or  resolving,  or  on  account 
of  any  other  part  of  their  conduct  at  tha 
presidency  of  Fort  St.  George^  either  as 
members  of  the  council  or  otherwise,  in  or 
during  the  months  of  June,  July,  or  August, 
1776,  or  at  any  other  time,  or  in  respect,  or 
on  account  of  the  removal  or  suspension  of 
lord  Pigot,  or  any  of  the  transactions  which 
are  the  subject  of  this  prosecution."  This 
affidavit  has  been  very  nicely  and  criticaily 
remarked  upon  by  the  prosecutor's  couns^ 
but  we  all  think  words  caniiot  well  convey  a 
more  exphcit  or  pointed  denial,  but  if  the  aiSB- 
davit  was  silent,  the  eoidentia  ret  speaks 
stronger  than  any  affidavit.  For  if  the  ob» 
structmg  this  part  of  the  Company's  orders  or 
instructions,  or  any  corrupt  mfiuence  of  the 
nabob  or  Benfield  for  the  purpose  of  fiiuilitat- 
ing  their  claims,  were  the  motives  to  induca 
the  defendants  to  usurp  the  government,  can 
it  be  supposed  that  fivm  the  moment  they 


mni  otkerSfJbr  ddponng  Lord  jRi^of* 


A.  D.  in^. 


[U9lf 


got  the  government  into  their  hands,  they 
•hould  not  take  any  one  step  to  obtun  satis- 
faction of  the  claims? 

These  two  topics  of  aggravation,  therefore, 
ve  think  ought  to  be  laraout  of  the  case,  and 
cannot,  with  any  degree  of  fairness,  be  con- 
nected with  the  subsequent  disputes  between 
lord  Pigot  and  the  council,  w^ich  did  not 
commence  until  the  19th  of  August,  above 
two  months  afterwards,  and  which  originated 
from  a  claim  of  preference  of  colonel  Stuart 

fiven  in  to  the  council,  by  which  he  insists  on 
is  right  to  be  sent  to  Tanjore  as  a  superior 
command,  and  as  the  post  of  honour,  there 
having  been,  before  that  time,  some  intelli- 
gence received  of  some  hostile  preparation,  by 
Xhe  French  and  Hyder  Ally,  on  the  side  of 
Pondicherry,  as  appears  from  a  letter  of  lord 
Fi0>t'softhe  Idthof  June,  1776. 

These  were  the  principal  topics  of  aggrava- 
tion insisted  upon  by  the  prosecutor,  fori  take 
no  notice  of  the  supposed  intention  to  take 
away  the  life  of  lora  Pigot,  that  having  been^ 
laid  out  of  the  case,  upon  the  motion  for 
judgment,  as  wholly  groundless. 

Tne  defendants,  besides  relying  upon  the 
supposed  necessity  of  the  act,  have  proved,  as 
a  circumstance  in  their  favour,  the  sentiments 
expressed  by  the  council  at  Bengal  upon  the 
subject.  It  appears  that  the  defendants,  and 
likewise  lord  Pigot,  immediately  after  the 
event  happened,  sent  an  account  of  their  pro- 
ceejlings  to  the  presidency  of  Bengal,  both 
sides  seeming  to  acknowledge  this  presidency 
as  a  sort  of  superior  tribunal,  to  whom  they 
were  accountable  for  their  proceedings,  under 
the  powers  vested  in  them  by  the  statute  of 
the  13th  of  his  present  Majesty.  The  presi- 
dency of  Bengal,  in  a  letter  to  the  majority 
•f  the  coimcil,  dated  the  10th  of  September, 
1776,  in  which  they  acknowledge  the  receipt 
•f  their  letter,  and  hkewise  of  lonl  Pigot's,  say, 
**  The  rights  and  powers  of  the  government 
of  Fort  St  George  oeing^  by  the  original  con- 
stitution, vested  in  a  majoritv  of  the  members 
who  compose  that  body,  and  the  intemperate 
conduct  of  lord  Pigot,  your  late  president,  in 
forcibly  excluding  two  .of  your  members  from 
Uieir  seats  at  me .  board,  having  been  the 
cause  of  the  unhappy  separation  of  the  ma- 
jority of  your  board  from  the  minority,  in  this 
alarming  and  dangerous  situation  of  your  go- 
vernment, we  thmk  it  Incumbent  on  us  to 
declare,  that  we  acknowledge  the  title  and 
authority  which  we  understand  you  have 
been  thus  compelled  to  assume,  in  conse- 
quence whereof,  we  have  resolved  to  support 
you  in  the  government  by  allj  the  means 
which  you  may  require  from  us,  and  we  have 
it  in  our  power  to  grant."  And  in  a  letter 
from  the  governor  and  council  of  Bengal,  of 
the  same  date,  to  lord  Pigot,  af\er  expressing 
their  concern  for  what  nad  happened,  they 
say,  "  We  deem  it  incumbent  on  us  to  declare, 
that  the  rights  and  powers  of  the  governor 
and  council  of  any  of  the  Companys  presi- 
dencies, are  ve^ed  by  the  original  coMtitu- 


tion,  in  the  majority  of  the  board.  That  the 
violence  committed  by  yoor  lordship,  in  ex- 
cluding two  of  the  members  of  the  council  of 
Fort  St.  George  from  their  places,  was  a-  vio* 
lation  of  the  constitution ;  that  tne  measures 
taken  by  the  majority  to  recover  the  actual 
government,  which  of  right  is  vested  in  them, 
arose  from  the  necessity  of  the  case,  and  that 
we  shall  acknowledge  and  support  the  title 
and  authority  which  they  consequently  pos- 
sess :  in  doing  this  it  is  sufficient  for  us  to 
know^  that  we  are  supporting  the  legal  and 
constitutional  government  of  the  Company, 
though  we  are  not  yet  perfectly  informed  of 
all  the  train  of  facts  which  have  brought  the 
government  of  Madras  into  the  present  situa- 
tion.'' It  is  farther  urged  on  the  behalf  of 
the  defendants,  as  an  argument  of  the  up- 
rightness of  their  intentions,  in  assuming  the 
power,  that  when  thev  were  in  possession  of 
It,  they  were  not  guilty  of  any  abuse  in  the 
admimstraUon  of  the  Company's  afiairs.  We 
don't  find  that  any  charge  of  that  kind*  has 
been  imputed  to  them  on  the  part  of  the  pro- 
secution, and,  on  the  contrary,  it  is  sworn  bj 
the  defendants,  that  the  settlement  of  Madras 
was  in  a  flourishing  state  during  the  time  they 
held  the  government,  and  that  the  amount 
and  increase  of  the  revenues  and  investments 
and  the  v^ue  and  returns  during  that  period, 
exceeded  those  of  any  other  period  of  liAce  du- 
ration; that  order,  peace,  and  tranquillity 
were  maintained  in  the  settlement,  and  the 
army  was  in  so  good  a  condition,  and  so  pru- 
dently disposed,  as  greatly  to  contribute  to 
the  subsequent  reduction  of  Pondicheriy ;  and 
that  when  Mr.  Whitebill  arrived  in  August, 
1777,  they  cheerfully  and  readily  gave  up  the 

government  to  those  to  whom  the  Company 
ad  delegated  it. 

There  is  another  matter  which  has  made  an 
impression  not  intended,  that  is,  the  earnest- 
ness with  which  we  were  urged  to  disable  the 
East  India  Company  from  employing  any  of 
the  defendants  dunng  the  whole  course  of 
their  lives,  for  that  is  the  only  effect  of  the 
sentence  of  incapadty.  One's  imagination 
might  suggest  cases  in  which  it  mi^ht  be  a 

Srudent  caution  in  the  legislatore  to  give  such 
iscretion  to  this  Court.  The  servants  of  the 
Company  might  be  guilty  of  peculation  and 
oppressions  which  might  redound  to  the  ad- 
vantage of  the  Company  or  some  individuals  * 
of  it,  as  well  ^  of  themselves,  but  to  the  dis- 
grace of  the  national  honour.  Therefore  the 
jealousy  of  the  legislature  thought  fit  to  in* 
trust  a  controlling  power  in  other  hands,  vrho 
are  no  ways  interested  in  the  subject;  but 
this  is  not  a  case  of  that  kind.  From  the  na- 
tore  of  the  subject,  the  pr^udices  of  evay 
member  of  the  Company  must  be  against  re- 
sistance to  their  own  governor,  and  tlieir  own 
authority,  against  revolutions  in  their  settle- 
ments, by  means  of  their  army.  No  man  in 
England  could  have  any  share  or  interest  in 
what  passed  in  Madras  upon  this  occasion, 
because  it  was  sudden  and  unpremeditated^ 


ISSl] 


19  GEORGE  III.         PnouHngi  against  Gwrge  StraUon        [MSI 


and  it  is  sworn  that  no  gain  or  profit  arose 
from  the  ravoluUoa.  No  instance  has  been 
i^ewn  in  which  the  Company  has  hitherto 
&voured  the  defendants — they  are  suspended : 
—they  are  convicted  : — If  an;^  of  the  defen- 
dants should  be  employed  again  by  the  Com- 
pany, it  will  be  but  from  a  persuasion  tiiat 
they,  in  general)  look  upon  what  the  defen- 
dants have  done  in  a  venial  K^fat,  from  their 
motive,  intention,  and  object  m  doing  it.  If 
the  Companv  should  entertain  that  opinion 
of  their  conduct,  it  wilt  be  the  addition  of  a 
greater  authority  than  that  of  the  council  at 
Bengal,  and  may  b«  the  means  of  removing 
the  strong  impression  ma^  by  their  con- 
viction. ^ 

Having  thus  gone  through  every  topic  that 
anggests  itself  to  me  in  your  favour,  I  must 
BOW  address  ibyself  to  you : — George  Stratton, 
Henry  Brooke,  Charles  Floyer,  uid  George 
liackay,  you  are  called  up  to  receive  the 
judgment  of  this  Court ;  and  it  is  my  duty  to 
tell  you,  that  the  result  of  our  judgment  upon 
the  several  circumstances  stated  is,  tluit 
thoush  they  tend  to  lessen  the  guilt  of  what 
you  have  done,  from  ;four  intention,  motive, 
and  object  in  doing  it,  and  must  certainly 
weigh  m  the  scale  of  mitigation,  yet  the  of- 
fence of  which  you  are  convicted  is  a  grave 
and  serious  crime,  and  of  most  dangerous 
aiample,  and  so  must  be  deemed  in  conse- 
i|uence  of  the  verdict  itself.  You  are  hot  con- 
victed of  a  formal  transjgression  of  law,  but 
upon  the  merits  of  your  justification,  though 
it  may  be  yer^  difficult  to  define  what  would 
be  a  legal  justification  of  your  acts :  yet  the 
jury  was  not  told,  that  in  strictness  of  law, 
you  could  not  in  anv  event  be  justified,  but 
the  occasion,  with  all  its  facts  and  circum- 
stancesy  was  lef^  to  their  consideration.  They 
were  told  what  was  necessary  to  produce  that 
natural  necessity  which,  in  a  court  of  law,  was 
sufficient  to  justify  crimes  and  wrongs.  If 
they  found  analogous  circumstances  to  concur 
in  your  case  in  forming  that  crisis  whidi  you 
insisted  upon  as  a  justification,  they  ihight 
Tenture  to  acquit  you ;  and  though  some  ob- 
servationB  were  made  to  shew  that  the  ana- 
logy did  not  ^eaist  in  the  present  case,  vet  the 
whole  case  was  left  to  the  jury  with  great 
latitude.  Your  case  therefore  is  not  like  that 
of  magistrates  convicted  tlm>u^  their  having 
asistaken  the  forms  of  law.  No  forms  of 
law  coidd  warrant  your  imprisoning  the  go- 
'VemcM:,  and  assuming  the  government.  Even 
if  the  act  you  had  d<me  was  in  your  judgment 
necessary,  you  should  hive  endeavoured  to 
have  restored  the  government  as  nearly  to  its 
ancient  standard  as  circumstances  would  i^- 
mit,  after yo|ii  had  confined  loud  P^t;  but  in- 
stead of  this,  you  followed  lord  Pigot  in  the 
conduct  you  condemned  in  him,  and  proceeded 
to  a  suspension  of  three  members  of  the 
council,  Russel,  Dalryniple,  and  Stone. 

Though  it  is  fit  therefore,  on  the  one  hand, 
we  should  bear  in  mind  that  fundamental  rule 
#f  crimiaal  judicature,  that  the  measure  ef 


punishment  should  be  in  proportkn  to  the 
degree  of  malignity  appearing  in  the  intentioB 
of  the  ofiender,*  it  is  not  the  less  nocesssij 
that  we  should  have  a  view  to  eiample,  thst 
others  may  learn  how  dangerous  it  is,  even  in 
a  case  attended  with  many  favourable  m- 
cumstances,  for  men  arbitFarily  to  assume 
powers  inconsistent  with  the  nature  of  tint 
government  with  which  they  are  entrwled. 

As  you  all  concurred  in  the  several  sds 
which  are  the  objects  of  this  infimnation,  ire 
do  not  see  anv  ground  for  making  any  diaoi- 
mination  in  the  punishment 

This  Court,  therefore,  having  taken  sll  the 
circumstances  into  consideration,  and  bavitt 
regard  to  the  loss  you  have  alreafiy  sustaioea 
by  being  deprived  of  your  situations  in  lodit, 
do  order  ana  adjudge  that  you  severally  pay  t 
fine  to  the  king  of  1,0004.  each,  and  that  yoa 
severally  be  imprisoned  until  your  respective 
fines  be  paid. 

The  fines  were  immediatelv  paid  in  court, 
and  the  defeniknts  discharged!. 


It  seems  probable  that  there  are  some  mif- 
takes  in  the  report  of  this  judgpient;  whipb, 
agreeablv  to  my  general  practice,  I  h^ve  oot 
ventured  to  afreet. 


To  lord  £rskine*s  Speech  for  the  defendtptt. 
in  mitigation  of  puni&hment,  is  sul^oined 
(Misc.  Speeches  of  Lord  Erskine,  when  at  the 
Bar,  Bvo,  1813,  p.  79)  the  following  Note: 

"  The  Court,  by  iU  judgment,  only  imwMed 
a  fine  of  1,000/.  upon  each  of  the  defenmots; 
a  sentence  which,  we  believe,  was  considered 
at  the  time  by  the  whole  profe^ion  of  tbe 
law,  and  by  all  others  qualified  to  consider 
such  a  subject,  as  highly  just  apd  proper,  un- 
der all  the  circumstances  of  the  case.  The 
accusation  was  weighty,  but  the  judges  woe 
bound,  by  their  oaths,  to  weish  all  the  cir- 
cumstances pf  mitigation,  as  Uiev  appeared 
from  the  hcts  in  evidence,  and  from  the 
pleadings  of  the  counsel  at  the  bar.  They 
were  not  to  pronounce  a  severe  judgment,  be- 
cause the  House  of  Commons  was  the  prose- 
cutor. Mr.  Burke,  however,  who  had  taken 
a  very  warm,  and,  we  have  no  doubt,  an 
honest  part,  in  the  prosecution,  took  ereat 
ofience  at  me  lenient  conclusion;  and  re- 
peatedly animadverted  upon  it  in  the  Hoiue 
of  Commons.  There  can  be  no  doubt  of  w 
high  value  of  the  privilege  oossessed  by  the 
representatives  of  the  people,  to  be  public 
accusers ;  but  for  that  very  reason  theycan 
have  no  right  to  determine,  or  to  interrcre 
with  the  ju^ments  of  other  tribunals,  when 

•  See  this  fonduiieDUl  prinoiple  of  joriipredeBot 
at  to  criioeft,  most  clearly  tUted,  ino«t  fioelj  deli- 
neated, most  ably  and  eloqoeotly  eoforoed,  and  wo*^ 
splendidly  illastnUed  by  lord  Braklne  ia  his  Sp«^ 

Ibr  Mr.  CiitheH«  a;  o.  1799. 

* 


1S95] 


and  othert,Jbr  deposing  Lord  Pigot. 


A.  D.  1779. 


riS94 


they  themselves  are  the  prosecutors.  If 
judges,  indeed,  conduct  themselves  corruptly, 
or  partially,  upon  a  prosecution  hy  the  House 
of  <Jommons,  or  upon  any  other  judicial  pro- 
ceeding whatsoever,  it  is  a  high  and  valuable 
privilege  of  the  people's  representatives  in 
parliament  to  proceed  against  the  offenders 
Dy  impeachment ;  but  it  is  not  the  duty  of 
any  member  of  that  high  assembly,  to  dis- 
parage the  decisions  of  the  judges,  by  invi- 
oious  observations,  without  any  pubhc  pro- 
ceeding which  may  bring  their  knerits,  or 
dements^  iato  pablic  exaquoation.    Such  a 


course  is  injurious  to  those  who  have  beea 
the  subjects  of  them;  disrespectful  to  the 
magistrates  who  have  pronounced  tliem ;  and 
contrary  to  the  spirit  and  character  of  the 
British  constitution." 


Of  Philip  Carteret  Webb's  Case,  dt.  p. 
1048,  there  is  a  report  in  vol.  19,  p.  1178. 


With  respect  to  Mr.  Whitehill,  ^lentioned 
in  the  preceding  report,  p.  1S90^  see  stat. 
38  G.  S,  c.  69. 


END  OF  VOL.  XXL 


SBE 


Priotad  by  T.  C.  Hamud,  Peterboroafh-Court, 
Fleet-Street,  LoodDn. 


SSmSS 


A    TABt.E 


OF 


PARALLEL    REFERENCE 


TO  THB 


STATE  TRIALSA     rSTATE  TRIALS, 


FOLIO  EDITION^ 


BT 


F.  HARGRAVE,  Esq 


OCTAVO  EDITION, 
BY  ^ 

T.  B.  HOWELL,  Esq. 


1814. 


\ 


ADVERTISEMENT. 

THIS  Table  of  Parallel  Reference  is  compiled  for  the  pur- 
pose  of  rendering  Mr.  Howell's  Edition  of  The  State  Trials 
applicable  to  those  Books  of  authority  in  which  references  are  made 
to  the  last  Folio  Edition. 

It  is  presumed  that  the  principle  upon  which  it  is  constructed 
wiU  appear  to  be  so  plain,  that  a  slight  explanation  will  be  sufficient 
for  its  general  application. 

The  first  Column  is  merely  an  enumeration  of  the  pages,  in 
each  successive  Volume  of  the  last  Folio  Edition :  the  second  Column 
indicates  the  pages  in  which  the  same  matter  will  be  found  in  the 
present  Octavo  Edition. 

*\ 
It  is  to  be  observed,  that  the  whole  of  Mr.  Hargrave's  CoU 

lection  of  State  Trials  is  comprized  in  the  first  Twenty  Volumes  of 

the  present  Edition  ;   but  as  the  following  Table  is  printed  in  a 

form  completely  independent  of  any  part  of  the    Work  itself  it 

may  either  be  bound  separately,  which  may  be  thought,  in  some 

cases,  preferable,   or  with  the   Twentieth   Volume,    or  any  other 

Volume,  at  the  option  of  the  possessor. 


P0t€rboro*  Court,  Aug.  1814, 


TABLE, 


4-c, 


FOLIO — Vol.  1. 

octavo.    . 

FOLIO — Vol.  1. 

OCTAVO. 

Vol*  h        page  1 

vol.  I. 

page  S9 

Vol.  I.      page  34 

vol.  I.    page  214 

2 

•  •• 

...      91 

5 

...     ...     ^lo 

S 

•  •• 

...      93 

225 

4 

•*• 

...      95 

6 

...     ...    218 

5 

# 

•  •• 

...      97 

225 

6 

•  •• 

...     100 

7 

225 

.    7 

•  •• 

...     102 

8 

...      ...      *^»o 

8 

•  •• 

...     104 

9 

...  ^     ...        /toM 

9 

1 

•  •• 

...     107 

^       40 

•  a.          •••          2o^ 

10 

•  • 

•  •• 

...     109 

1 

...          ...          £00 

11 

•  *• 

...     Ill 

2 

...     ...     ^37 

12 

•  •• 

...   lis 

3 

...         •,•        TbOtJ 

IS 

•  •• 

...     115 

4 

...       •••       Z*x\. 

14 

•  •• 

...     119 

5 

243 

15 

•  •• 

...     121 

6 

245 

175 

7 

...       .  *  ■       ^nni 

16 

•  •• 

...     122 

8 

...       ...       £t!l\3 

176 

9 

252 

17 

•  •• 

...    177 

50 

^_...     ...  '  ittyi 

18 

•  «• 

...     179 

1 

•..     ...        " 

19 

•  • 

...     18? 

2 

257 

20 

•  •• 

...     184 

3 

...     ...        ' 

1 

•  •• 

...     186 

4 

...       ...      ILO^ 

2 

•  •• 

...     188 

5 

...       ...        ~~" 

3 

•  •• 

...     190 

6 

261 

4 

•  •• 

.1.     193 

7 

...     ...     ""^ 

5 

•  •• 

...     195 

8 

...     ...     ^09 

6 

•  •• 

...     197 

9 

...      ...      OOO 

■     7 

•  •• 

...     199 

60 

...      ...     9oo 

8 

•  *• 

...     201 

1 

...         ^.         OirV 

9 

•  •• 

...    203 

2 

...         ...         TSt^jftt 

SO 

•  •• 

...     206 

3 

...      ...      9^0 

1 

••• 

...    208 

869 

2 

•  •• 

...    210 

4 

...       ...      9Sy3 

S 

••• 

...    212 

5 

• 

...       ...  -  872 

STATE  TRIALS. — Ihdex  of  Rkvskevce  to  BotH  Editioks, 


roLio- 

-Vol.  I. 

OCTAVO. 

FOLIO-rVoL.  1. 

OCTAVO. 

VoLl. 

page  66 

«o/.  L    page  874 

VoLl.    page  us 

no/.  L   page  105* 

r-3     ^ 

876 

lOM 

8 

878 

19 

»••         ...     *Vfcv 

9 

881 

120 

...           ...       AVfV/ 

70 

883 

1 

1095 

1 

885 

2 

...      ...    IvRlo 

2 

887 

3 

1100 

I 

889 

4 

1102 

892 

5 

...           •••       Jl  mvrV 

5 

•  ••        •••        OtV 

6 

...     ...  1106 

6 

896 

898 

7 

••■     ...   1JU9 

, 

7 

1127 

901 

8 

1110 

8 

•••     .••    oify 

1129 

^ 

901 

9 

1129 

903 

130 

...       ...    1 191 

9 

903 

1 

...              ...         M    lOf 

80 

905 

2 

...       ■••     llOO 

1 

•••     •••     9Uo 

957 

.     3 

...            •••       lido 

1141 

^ 

957 

4 

...         ...      ■»  X  JSy 

1 142 

S 

957 

5 

...               ...         M  1^9 

4 

960 

6 

...         .f.      X  L^if 

5 

962 

7 

1147 

6 

964 

8 

...     ...  1 1  ■  •/ 

7 

967 

9 

...     ...  1152 

8 

969 

140 

...       ...    1  l^r 

9 

971 

1 

...       ...    1 UO 

90 

973 

2 

...           ...      1  IdO 

1 

976 

3 

1161 

2 

978 

4 

...     ...  1163 

8 

980 

5 

...     •••   1165 

4 

982 

6 

1167 

5 

985 

7 

...     ...   1169 

6 

987 

8 

1171 

7 

989 

9 

117* 

8 

...     ...     991 

150 

1176 

9 

993 

1 

...     ...  1 1  i^ 

100 

996 

2 

...     ...  1180 

1 

998 

3 

...     ...  1183 

2 

1000 

4 

...     ...  1185 

•              S 

1002 

5 

•  •■        •••     11  Of 

4 

1005 

6 

...     •••   llo9 

« 

5 

1007 

7 

••*     •••  iXiK 

6 

1009 

8 

...        •*.     1  l«fV 

;     7 

1011 

9 

...      ...   ll«ff} 

8 

1014 

160 

...        ••.     XlSfO 

9 

1016 

1 

1201 

110 

1018 

2 

•••     •••  l^Jo 

11 

1020 

3 

1308 

1 

12 

1023 

• 

1249 

13 

1025 

4 

•••     •«•  1909 

14 

1027 

»                    ' 

1251 

15 

4029 

5 

1251 

16 

1031 

6 

1253 

• 

17 

1034 

1041 

•       •    7 

1255 

1271 

w 


I 


STATE  TRIAL&«^InBz  ov  Ektsbbvcx  to  both  Editioiis. 


FOLKM^YOI*.  h 

octavo. 

VoL  L    page  IW 

voLl. 

page  1257 

» 

1271 

.  .     9 

••• 

..•  1271 

170 

'••• 

...  1274 

1 

••* 

...  1276 

2 

••* 

...  1279 

.     S 

t 

••• 

...  1281 

4 

••• 

...  1283 

.     5 

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...  1285 

S 

••• 

...  1288 

.    7 

••• 

...  1290 

.     8 

••• 

...  1292 

9 

••• 

...  1294 

180 

•• 

...  1296 

1 

*•• 

...  1299 

2 

••• 

...  1301 

3 

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FOI/IO — ^VOL.  I. 


Vokh 


page  219 

220 

1 

2 

8 

4 

5 

6 

•      7 

8 

9 

230 


2 

3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
240 
1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 

8 

9 
250 
1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
260 
1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
270 
1 
2 


OCTAVO. 


voLlL 


... 


... 


... 


... 


... 


... 


... 


... 


... 


... 


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... 


... 


... 

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... 
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page  16 

...      18 

20 

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...      27 

31 
33 
37 
39 
41 
43 
159 
44 
160 
161 
163 
165 
167 
170 
172 
174 
177 
179 
181 
183 
186 
188 
190 
192 
217 
193 
218 
219 
221 
223 
226 
228 
230 
233 
235 
237 
239 
242 
244 
246 
248 
251 
253 
255 
257 
260 
262 
264 
267 
269 
271 


»•• 


... 


... 


STATE  TRIALS.— Imn  ov  Rbrebvcs  to  both  Editioiis. 


POLIO— Vol.  I. 

OCTAVO. 

a/.  I.  page  273 

w^IL 

oaf  e  273 

4 

... 

...  276 

5 

•  •• 

..   278 

6 

•  •* 

...  280 

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...  283 

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...  285 

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m»* 

...  987 

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FOLIO— V0L«  L 


VoLh 


pageSn 

9 
.330 

.     1 
2 


5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
340 
1 

2 
3 
4 

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7 

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9 

350 

1 

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4 

5 
6 
7 
8 
9 

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1 
2 
3 
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5 
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7 

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9 

370 
1 
2 


OCTAVO. 


... 


... 


«.. 


... 


... 


... 


••• 


••• 


... 


•.• 


voL  IL  jMge  917 

••.      ...    ftfitf 

•«.         •••      \f2i 
...        ...     929 

...  925 
...  927 
...    929 

1021 
...    930 

1023 
...  1025 
...  1027 
...  1029 
...  1032 
...  929 
...  932 
...  95* 
935J 
...  937 
939 

...    9*^ 

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9*7 

...    9" 

947 

...   9« 
949 

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...    948 

949 

958 

...    958 

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965 

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969 

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987 
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... 


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... 


... 


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.«< 


STATE  TRIALS— Inpss  of  Kbfsrsvce  to  both  EDxnon. 


FOI.IO— Vol.  I. 

OCTAVO. 

FOLIO — Vol.  1. 

octavo. 

VqL  I.  page  374 

voL  IL  page  1018 
1087 

Vol.  I.  page  423 

4 

vol*  III.  page  572 
...  ...  575 

6 

1090 

5 

...  ...  *y  i  i 

7 

1092 

6 

...   .«•  O  l%f 

8 

•   1094 

7 

...  ...  581 

9 

1096 

8 

...   ...  00*j 

1097 

9 

591 

880 

1096 

430 

597 

( 

1098 

1 

...   ...  oifiy 

1 

1099 

2 

601 

2 

1102 

3 

...   ...   CM/t 

3 

1104 

4 

...   ...   OviO 

4 

1106 

5 

...   ...   OvO 

5 

1108 

6 

610 

6 

lUO 

7 

612 

7 

1112 

8 

615 

vol.  III.  ...   401 

9 

...  ...  617 

r           8 

vol.   II.  ...  1113 

440 

619 

vol.  III.  ...   403 

1 

622 

9 

...   ....    45v/y 

2 

624 

390 

...   ...    tV/O 

3 

627 

1 

...   ...    ^A/%f 

4 

...  ...  o^^ 

2 

...  ...   411 

5 

...  ...  631 

3 

413 

6 

634 

4 

415 

7 

636 

5 

417 

8 

•  638 

419 

9 

640 

6 

418 

450 

...   ...   O  y9 

9 

420 

1 

...    ...    04d 

7 

421 

2 

...   ...   Or  1 

8 

...   ...   T!ju*y 

3 

...    ...   D  Y^ 

9 

425 

4 

652 

519 

5 

...    •  a  •    Dd4 

400 

426 

6 

...  ...  656 

« 

521 

7 

658 

1 

523 

.   8 

•••  ...  661 

2 

525 

9 

...   ••.   DOS 

3 

528 

460 

...   ...   DOO 

4 

530 

1 

•  • .   ...   OOo 

5 

532 

2 

670 

6 

...  ...   5S4 

3 

672 

7 

••.  ...   536 

4 

675 

8 

•••  ...   538 

5 

677 

9 

541 

6 

679 

410 

...    ...     ^jTS 

7 

...  •••  682 

11 

545 

8 

...   ...   Oo4 

12 

547 

9 

686 

13 

550 

470 

...  ...  688 

14 

552 

1 

• .  •   ...   OS^v 

15 

554 

2 

692 

16 

...  ...  55G 

3 

...  .••  695 

17 

559 

4 

697 

561 

5 

...  •*.  ^j%f%j 

18 

560 

6 

701 

19 

...  ...   563 

7 

703 

^  420 

...  ...   566 

8 

705 

1 

•••  ...   568 

9 

707 

2 

570 

» 

480 

710 

STATE  TRIALS— -Index  of  Rbpbrbkce  to  Both  Editiohs. 


FOLIO- 

-Vol.  1. 

octavo. 

FOLIO — Vol.  I. 

OCTAVO. 

Vol.  I. 

page  481 

VOL  Ilia 

page  711 

VoL  I.  page  539 

voL  Iff.  page  910 

2 

... 

...     715 

540 

...       •*.      •flu 

3 

... 

.a.      717 

1 

...        ...        «7ld 

4 

... 

...    719 

2 

...        ...       S/l  1 

5 

... 

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3 

...        ...       ftflSf 

6 

... 

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4 

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7 

... 

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5 

•..      ...     tjtn 

8 

... 

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6 

...     •••    926 

\ 

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... 

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7 

...      ...     SfZo 

490 

... 

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8 

•..       ...      SAnI 

1 

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...     735 

9 

•  ..        ...       •r9«) 

2 

... 

...    737 

550 

...     ...    9S5 

3 

•  u» 

...    739 

1 

...     ...     *foi 

4 

... 

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2 

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5 

... 

...    744 

3 

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6 

... 

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4 

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7 

... 

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6 

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4 

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2 

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6 

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9 

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aa. 

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570 

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13 

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1 

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14 

•  •a 

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2 

•  ••            •..          mfvO 

15 

•  aa 

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3 

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16 

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4 

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17 

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6 

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8 

a*.          ...        5^^ 

1 

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9 

998 

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2 

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580 

1000 

3 

•  •a 

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1 

1008 

4 

•  •• 

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2 

...    .;.  loot 

5 

.aa 

...    879 

3 

1006 

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6 

aa* 

..•    881 

4 

1008 

I 

7 

•  •• 

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5 

1011 

8 

•  •• 

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6 

lOlS 

9 

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7 

1015 

530 

aa* 

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8 

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1 

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9 

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2 

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590 

1021 

3 

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1 

102* 

4 

aaa 

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2 

1086 

5 

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3 

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4 

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7 

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5 

10S2 

8 

•  •• 

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6 

• 10S5 

STATE  TRIALS- 

-Indbx  of 

RlFXRlNCX  TO  BOTH  EDITIONS. 

FOLIO— Vol.  I. 

OCTAVO. 

FOLIO — Vol.  I. 

OCTAVO. 

VoL  I.  page  597 

t>otIII. 

page  1037 

VoL  I.  page  BUS 

oo/.in.  0agell64 

8 

•  •• 

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6 

1166 

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4 

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11 

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9 

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12 

•  •• 

...  1070 

670 

1196 

13 

•  •• 

...  1072 

1 

1198 

14 

•  •• 

...  1074 

2 

1200 

15 

•  •• 

...  1077 

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1202 

16 

•  •• 

...  1079 

4 

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17 

•  •• 

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5 

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18 

•  •• 

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6 

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7 

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9 

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1 

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6 

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7 

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9 

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1 

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4 

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2 

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5 

•  •• 

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4 

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7 

•  •• 

...  1124 

6 

1251 

8 

•  •• 

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6 

1253 

9 

•  •• 

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7 

1256 

640 

•  •• 

...  1131 

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1258 

1 

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...  1133 

9 

1261 

2 

•  •• 

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700 

».  ...  1263 

3 

•  •• 

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1 

1265 

4 

•  •• 

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2 

1267 

5 

•  •• 

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8 

1269 

6 

•  •• 

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4 

1271 

7 

•  •• 

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5 

1273 

8 

•  •• 

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6 

1275 

9 

•  •• 

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7 

1277 

650 

•  •• 

...  1153 

8 

1280 

1 

•  •• 

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9 

1282 

2 

•  •• 

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710 

1284 

3 

•  •• 

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11 

1286 

.   4 

•  •• 

...  1162 

12 

1288. 

62 

' 

STATE  TRIALS*— Ihdez  or  Rwrmuwscm  to  both  EDmon. 


POLIO — Vol.  I. 

OCTAVO. 

FOLIO — ^VOL.  L 

OCTAVO. 

VoLL  page  lis 

iW.m.  page  l^l 

Fo/al.  page  766 

voL  TV.  page  189 

14 

1293 

9 

...        •••        l«rl 

15 

1295 

770 

•a.          ...         i«0 

16 

1297 

1 

...          a*.         M.}jO 

17 

1299 

2 

.aa         ...         1*W 

18 

1301 

3 

•  a.         ...        200 

19 

1304 

4 

202 

1369 

5 

•  ..         ...        9/T 

720 

1305 

6 

207 

1370 

7 

•a.     ...     209 

1 

1371 

8 

...      ...     211 

2 

1374 

9 

.».        ...       alu 

3 

1381 

780 

216 

4 

1387 

1 

...      ...     "\o 

5 

1389 

2 

...    ...    220 

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1391 

3 

aaa          .a.         £Sj 

7 

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4 

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1398 

6 

..«    &..    230 

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1400 

7 

.aa          aa.         23" 

1 

1402 

8 

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2 

1404 

9 

236 

3 

1406 

790 

•  aa          •••         *39 

4 

1408 

1 

241 

5 

1411 

2 

243 

6 

1413 

3 

245 

7 

1418 

4 

348 

8 

1420 

5 

...     ...    250 

9 

1423 

6 

252 

740 

1425 

7 

aa.          —         254 

1 

1427 

8 

...    ...    257 

2 

...     ...     1429 

9 

...    ...    259 

3 

1431 

800 

...     ...    261 

4 

1433 

1 

...    ...    26S 

5 

1436 

2 

oca 

6 

1438 

3 

...    ...    268 

7 

1440 

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...    ...    270 

8 

1442 

5 

...     ...    273 

9 

1445 

6 

...   ...  ??s 

750 

1447 

7 

-   -  21 

1 

1450 

8 

279 

2 

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9 

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810 

284 

4 

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11 

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5 

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187 

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314 

S15 

STATE  TRIALS.— Indbx  ot  RxnftBHCB  to  both  Epitiohs^ 


FOLIO— Vol.  I. 

OCTAVO. 

FOLIO— Vol.  I.  |    octavo. 

VoLL  pageS2^ 

vol.  IV.  pa^e  315 

VoL  I.  page  881 

vd.  IV.  page  447 

317 

2 

..  •  ...  fM?y 

5 

318 

3 

...  .. 

.  452 

6 

320 

4 

...  ..< 

.  454 

7 

322 

5 

••.  ..1 

.  456 

8 

325 

6 

1 
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9 

327 

7 

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329 

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331 

9 

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465 

2 

333 

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5 

335 

1 

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4 

338 

2 

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5 

340 

3 

...  ..■ 

474 

6 

...  ...  342 

4 

...  ..« 

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7 

•••  ...  %iJ, 

5 

...  ..• 

479 

8 

346 

6 

...  ..■ 

481 

9 

348 

7 

...  ..t 

.  484 

840 

...  ...  351 

8 

...  .*■ 

486 

1 

353 

9 

...  ..< 

>    488 

2 

356 

900 

...  ..1 

491 

3 

358 

1 

...  .. I 

493 

4 

360 

2 

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5 

362 

3 

•••  ••« 

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6 

364 

4 

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500 

7 

366 

5 

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8 

369 

6 

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9 

371 

7 

...  .«• 

507 

850 

373 

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509 

1 

376 

9 

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2 

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STATE  TBIALS. — Ixsiz  o>  Bsnmcx  to  boxb  Emtun. 


FOLU>— Vol-  L 


940 


fOgeSn  FatL^^geS 


e7s 

675 
«77 
679 


771 
T7S 
775 
777 
779 
780 
783 
785 
787 
790 
792 
79« 
798 


812 
813 
816 


STATE  TRIALS.— -Index  of  Rsferekcb  to  both  Editioks. 


FOLIO — Vol..  11. 

OCTAVO. 

FOLIO — Vol.  II. 

OCTAVO. 

VoL  II.  page  1 

VO/.IV.  «ifi^ell55 

Vol.  II.  page  58 

vol,  IV.  page  1355 

2 

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9 

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1182 

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3 

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3 

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4 

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5 

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67 

6 

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9 

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2 

1319 

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1338 

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7 

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15 

...  •••   xx^ 

^ 

STATE  TRIALS-xImmx  of 

RBrERsircs  to  both  Editiokb. 

FOLIO— Vol.  II. 

OCTAVO* 

FOLIO— Vol.  II. 

OCTAVe. 

VoLlL  page  116 

voLY.  page  US 

Vd.  U.  page  174 

voLW.  jMge248 

17 

: 118 

5 

245 

18 

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6 

247 

19 

122 

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9 

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180 

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STATE  TBIAL8— IxDsx  Of  Rbvxuncb  to  both  Editioks. 


VOLIO-^YOL.  II. 

octavo. 

folio— Vol.  IJ. 

octavo. 

Yd.  W.  yagt  224 

9ol»  V.  yag€  554 

VoL  II.  page  280 

vo/.  y.  pafreSSO   : 

5 

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2 

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8 

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9 

901 

4 

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290 

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1 

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6 

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914 

240 

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767 

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12 

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1 

1 

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k.a    •••     III 

15 

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16 

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17 

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5 

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19 

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9 

, 

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1 

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5 

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1053 

STATE  TBIALS. — Inn  of  Bcrbxms  xo 


FOLIO— Vol.  IL 

OCTAVO.              I 

FOLIO ^VOL.  11. 

1          « 

TATO. 

Vol.  IL  page  SS5 

voL  V.  f(^  1056 

VU.IL  |M^391 

papim 

4 

1058 

2 

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1062 

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9 

1072 

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340 

1074 

8 

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...    1215 

2 

•  ••       •••       lllDU 

400 

••• 

...    1217 

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1 

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...    1220 

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3 
4 

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7 

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9 

1121 

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...    1900 

360 

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1369 

1 

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18 

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•*•     •••     J.136 

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7 

1141 

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9 

•  ••      •••       IItO 

5 

•  •• 

...    1388 

370 

1148 

6 

•  •• 

...    1390 

1 

1150 

7 

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...    1392 

2 

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•  •• 

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...      119 

1 

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196 

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6 

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...    1507 

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...      137 

4 

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7 

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5 

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2 

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•  ••          •••          XXiTk 

3 

•  •• 

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STATE  TRIALS.— Index  op  Rbfbrskce  to  both  Editions. 


POLIO — Vol.  II. 

OCTAVO. 

FOLIO — Vol.  II. 

OCTAVO. 

V(d.U.  page  44^ 

voL  VI.  pag^tf  154 

Fo^IIa  pageW! 

vol.  VI.  po^e  269 

5 

•  ••       •••       JLdO 

273 

6 

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8 

270 

7 

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274 

8 

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9 

275 

9 

165 

500 

277 

450 

167 

1 

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1 

• 169 

565 

2 

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2 

280 

8 

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565 

4 

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3 

...     ...     565 

5 

•••     •••     178 

4 

567 

6 

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576 

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9 

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74 

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470 

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4 

610 

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8 

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225 

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8 

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229 

530 

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9 

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1 

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480 

232 

2 

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5 

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7 

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251 

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262 

6 

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264 

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6 

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8 

...       ...       OO  V 

STATE  TRIALS. — Ivdsx  or  SsFsmcwcs  to  both  Editiovs. 


FOLIO — Vol.  II. 

OCTAVO. 

FOLIO.— Vol.  II. 

OCTAVO. 

VoLIL  page5i9 

iwiL  VI.  page  562 

Vd.  U,  page€Oli 

voL\L  pa^9S4 

701 

3 

...       ...      SfjQ 

550 

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4 

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702 

5 

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1 

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§ 

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307 

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317 

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15 

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9 

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8 

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590 

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1 

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2 

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2 

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3 

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3 

1320 

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5 

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1337 

STATE  TRIALa— Iin>ez  or  ] 

Rbfemncb  to  both  Enmeiis. 

FOLIO.*— Vol.  11. 

OCTAVO.         H    FOLIO— Vol.  II. 

OCTAVO. 

Fo/.n.  page6S9 

vol.  VI.    J947^  1940 

Vol.  IL  page  704 

vol.yil,  page  96 

3 

1342 

5 

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4 

•  •  •          •  •  .          M  Z/Tv9 

'  1347 

6 

•••       ...       XiAl 

5 

7 

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•^ 

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rOLIO— V*L.  II.                    OCTAVO. 

rotio — Vol.  H. 

FoLU.  fagtS71    vtLVU.  page  76S 

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STATE  TRIALS.- 

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RSFEBXNCB  TO  MTj|  EDITJOmU 

FOLIO — Vol.  111. 

OCTAVO. 

POLIO— Vol.  111.  , 

OCTAVO. 

VoL  Ul.  jk^fi  93 

voLVlh 

page  10415  . 

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STATE  TRIALS.~IironL  ot  ReFESBvcs  to  mom  EDinon. 


FOLIO — Vol.  IIL 

OCTAVO. 

FOLIO — Vol.  IIL 

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i»/.VILp^<;]S80 

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STATE  TRIALS— -Ikdbx  of  Referencs  to  both  Editions. 


FOLIO — Vol.  III. 

OCTAVO. 

FOLIO— Vol.  IIJ. 

OCTAVO. 

VoiAlh  page  250 

voAVIII.  page  SOi 

Vol,  III.  page  306 

W/.VIII. 

page  AH  ^ 

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FOLi^ — Vol.  III. 

• 

OCTAVO. 

FOLIO— Vol.  III. 

OCTAVO. 

Vol.  lU.  page  960 

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STATE  TRIALS.— IroBx  of  Rstbbbmcb  to  both  EotTroM. 


FOLIO — Vol.  III. 

OCTAVO. 

FOLIO— Vol.  III. 

OCTAVO. 

••  • 

VolAU.  page  if7i 

vol.  IX.   page  15 

F0/.IU.  |Mi^525 

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STATE  TRIALSL ---Index  of  Referbkce  to  both  Editiovs. 


FQLip — Vol,  III. 

■  octavo. 

,  FOLIO — Vol.  III. 

OCTAVO. 

VoL  Uh  pageSSi 

w/.VIII.o/7^ell63 

VoL  III.  page  637 

vo;.IX.  page2¥i 

S 

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OCTAVO. 

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FOLIO— 

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POLIO— Vol.  VL 

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FOLIO — Vol.  X. 

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Printed  by  T.  C  Hansard,  Peterburough-Coart, 
Fleet-Street,  Loudon. 


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