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ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN ORGANIZATIONS
IN THE UNITED STATES
PARTS
{.'Ar'.?:.:' ct::''": usrahv
OtPOSlTEO BY THE
{JNITEO STATES GOVERNMENT
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-NINTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
FEBRUARY 14, 15, 21, 23, AND 24, 1966 ; SEPTEMBER 29, JULY 28,
AUGUST 24, AND OCTOBER 6, 1965; AND JANUARY 28, 1966
(INDEX IN SEPARATE VOLUME)
Printed for the use of the
Committee ou Un-American Activities
CONTENTS
February 14, 1966: Testimony of — Page
William Hugh Morris 3484
Afternoon session:
William Hugh Morris (resumed) 3510
Eloise Witte 3525
Earl Donald Holcombe 3546
February 15, 1966: Testimony of —
Colbert Raymond McGriff, Jr 3554
Marlin Price 3560
John Max Mitchell 3564
Afternoon session:
Curtis Alvin King 3570
James R. Venable 3572
February 21, 1966: Testimony of—
Richard Joseph Hanna 3622
Afternoon session:
Richard Joseph Hanna (resumed) 3654
Eunice Grover Fallaw 3656
Robert Pittman Gentry 3665
Jacky Don Harden 3674
Saint Elmo Mattox, Sr 3679
BartonH. Griffin 3682
Donald Eugene Spegal 3688
Willie Eugene Wilson 3694
Buddie Sammy Cooper 3700
Kenneth Marvin Overstreet 3705
February 23, 1966: Testimony of—
Noel Woodrow Wood 3710
Robert Sylvester Arant 3714
John Lee Stoudenmire 3717
Richard Edgar Kersey 3728
Joseph Thomas Huett, Sr 3739
Donald Joseph Ballentine 3743
Leon Aspinwall 3748
Afternoon session:
Jack Harold Grantham, Sr 3752
Charles Baker Riddlehoover 3768
February 24, 1966: Testimony of—
Jesse Benjamin Stoner 3804
EXECUTIVE TESTIMONY RELEASED
September 29, 1965: Testimony of —
Robert Pittman Gentry 3831
Afternoon session:
Robert Pittman Gentry (resumed) 3850
July 28, 1965: Testimony of—
Royal Virgin Young, Sr 3854
Afternoon session:
Royal Virgin Young, Sr. (resumed) 3865
August 24, 1965: Testimony of —
Raymond Duguid Mills 3896
October 6, 1965: Testimony of —
James R. Venable — 3937
Afternoon session:
James R. Venable (resumed) 397 1
January 28, 1966: Testimony of—
George Alvm Otto 3992
Index in separate volume.
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946]; 60
Stat. 812, which provides:
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
H; ***** *
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
(q)(l) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcom-
mittee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and at-
tacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution,
and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any
necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to
the Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such
investigation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times o.nd places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
Rule XII
LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT BY STANDING COMMITTEES
Sec. 136. To assist the Congress in appraising the administration of the laws
and in developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem neces-
sary, each standing committee of the Senate and the House of Representatives
shall exercise continuous watchfulness of the execution by the administrative
agencies concerned of any laws, the subject matter of which is within the juris-
diction of such committee; and, for that purpose, shall study all pertinent reports
and data submitted to the Congress by the agencies in the executive branch of
the Government.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN ORGANIZATIONS IN
THE UNITED STATES
Part 5
MONDAY, FEBRUARY 14, 1966
United States House of Kepresentatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D.C.
public hearings
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities,
as reconstituted for the February 14 hearings, met, pursuant to recess,
at 10 a.m., in the Caucas Room, Cannon House Office Building, Wash-
ington, D.C, Hon. Joe R. Pool (chairman of the subcommittee)
presiding.
(Subcommittee members: Representatives Joe R. Pool, of Texas,
chairman; Charles L. Weltner, of Georgia; and Del Clawson, of
California.)
Subcommittee members present: Representatives Pool and Clawson.
Staff members present: Francis J. McNamara, director; William
Hitz, general counsel; Alfred M. Nittle, counsel; Donald T. Appell,
chief investigator; and Philip R. Manuel, investigator.
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
The Chair wishes to first read the appointment of the subcommittee
to hear the hearings this morning :
Febbuaby 11, 1966.
To : Mr. Francis J. McNamaba,
Director, Committee on Un-American Activities.
Pursuant to the provisions of the law and the Rules of this Committee, I
hereby appoint a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities con-
sisting of Honorable Joe R. Pool as Chairman, and Honorable Charles L. Weltner
and Honorable Del Clawson as associate members, to conduct hearings in Wash-
ington, D.C, on Monday, February 14, 1966, as contemplated by the resolution
adopted by the Committee on the 30th day of March, 1965, authorizing hearings
concerning the activities of the various Ku Klux Klan organizations in the
United States.
Please make this action a matter of Committee record.
If any member indicates his inability to serve, please notify me.
Given under my hand this 11th day of February, 1966.
/s/ Edwin E. Willis
Edwin E. Wh-lis
Chairman, Committee on Un-American Activities.
Call your witness.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, the staff would like to call Mr. Wil-
liam Hugh Morris.
Mr. Pool. Would you raise your right hand ?
3483
3484 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Morris. I do.
TESTIMOITY OF WILLIAM HUGH MOERIS
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, would you please state your full name
for the record, please ?
Mr. Morris. William Hugh Morris.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, are you represented by counsel?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. At this time, do you desire a counsel ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Have you had the advice of counsel prior to your
appearance before the committee ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. Give him the clause concerning the fifth amendment.
Mr. Manuel. Are you aware there is available to you constitutional
privileges, including that of the fifth amendment, to protect you from
possible self-incrimination ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, I am very familiar with the Constitution of the
United States.
Mr. Pool. If at any time you desire counsel, if you will notify the
Chair, we will stop and discuss it and give advice on any matter per-
taining to that.
Mr. Morris. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, have you been provided wnth a copy of
the chairman's opening statement which he issued in October of 1965 ?
Mr. Morris. I suppose this is it; yes, sir, I just got a copy today.
I have not read it.
Mr. Manuel. Have you read it ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir ; I have not.
Mr. Manuel. You are not familiar with its contents ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir ; I am not, really.
Mr. Pool. I think, Mr. Manuel, in view of that statement, I think
that he should be allowed to step aside and call another witness.
Mr. Morris. I will waive that. I haven't got anything to hide, so
reading this would not alter my testimony one iota. I am quite sure
of that.
Mr. Pool. I would think we would prefer that you read the opening
statement and be familiar with its contents. If you will step aside we
will call the next witness.
The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes to allow you to
read the opening statement.
For the benefit of the press and the audience, the Chair wishes to
announce that we will adjourn at 12 o'clock today and come back at
4 o'clock and probably go to about 6 :30 today so you can arrange your
schedule.
(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken. Subcommittee members
present at time of recess and when hearings resumed : Representatives
Pool and Clawson.)
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3485
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, please take the stand again.
Have you read the chairman's opening statement, Mr. Morris?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Are you familiar with its cqntents?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please state the date and place of your
birth?
Mr. Morris. Douglas County, Georgia; January 17, 1905.
Mr. Manuel. Would you give the committee a brief resume of
your educational background ?
Mr. Morris. Not very much formal education.
Mr, Manuel. Specifically, sir, how much formal education did you
have ?
Mr. Morris. About 10th grade.
Mr. Manuel. Would you give the committee a brief resume of your
occupational background since 1950?
Mr. Morris. I have been a contractor.
Mr. Manuel. In what type of business, Mr. Morris ?
Mr. Morris. Roofing and siding and related work, home improve-
ments as it is usually called.
Mr. Manuel. Have you engaged in that business from 1950 to the
present ?
Mr. Morris. I have engaged in that business since 1927.
Mr. Manuel. Wliere do you currently reside, Mr. Morris ?
Mr. Morris. My permanent residence is Buchanan, Georgia. Due
to illness in my wife's family, I am in Birmingham at the present time.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, have you ever been a member of a Ku
Klux Klan organization ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir ; since 1924.
Mr. Manuel. What organization did you first become a member of ?
Mr. Morris. The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Manuel. How long did you maintain membership in that or-
ganization ?
Mr. Morris. Until it w^as disbanded.
Mr. Manuel. What year was that, sir ?
Mr. Morris. I don't know if I am correct — about 1943, I believe
1944.
Mr. Pool. Mr Manuel, did you ask him if he read the chairman's
opening statement ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir; he said he had. I asked him if he was
familiar with the contents, and he said he was.
Mr. Morris, did you ever hold any office in the old Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please tell the committee what offices
you held and the period of time which you held those offices, or that
office?
Mr. Morris. It has been a long time ago. I have held every office
there is in the Klan from klexter on.
Mr. Manuel. I am speaking specifically of the period between 1924
and 1943.
Mr. Morris. I understand that ; yes, sir. I was naturalized in the
Klan in my hometown of Douglasville, Georgia, in 1924, Douglasville
3486 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Klan No. 50. I went to Birmingham in 1927 and transferred my
membership to Klan No. 60.
Then I transferred my membership to Robert E. Lee Khm No. 1,
and there is where it remained until the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
operated.
Mr. Manuel. Wliere was Robert E. Lee Klan No. 1 ?
Mr. Morris. It was located in Birmingham.
Mr. Manuel. In Birmingham, Alabama ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you hold membership in another Ku Klux Klan
organization after your membership in the old Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir. I had formed the Federated Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Manuel. What year w^as that?
Mr. Morris. I believe it was incorporated in 1944 or 1945.
Mr. Manuel. How long did the Federated Ku Klux Klan remain
in existence?
Mr. Morris. Some 4 or 5 years.
Mr. Manuel. Could you give the committee a date as to when?
Mr. Morris. As to when it actually ceased to operate, when my
house burned, of course, all of my furniture and everything had burned
with it and I can't — as I get a little older, dates sort of run together.
Shortly after Dr. Green died — at that time there was two, the Fed-
erated and the Associated. Dr. Green formed the Associated Georgia
Klan after the old Knights of the Ku Klux Klan suspended opera-
tion and we formed the Federated Klans in Alabama.
There was cooperation between the two groups but there was no
actual affiliation.
Mr. Manuel. Did you hold any position or title in the Federated
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. I was elected, at some time of its operation, I was
elected its Imperial Wizard.
Mr. Manuel. Did you hold the title of Imperial Wizard at the time
the Federated Klan ceased to operate ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Where did the Federated Klans operate geographi-
cally?
Mr. Morris. In Alabama.
Mr. Manuel. Solely in Alabama ?
Mr. Morris. Solely in Alabama.
Mr. Manuel. After your membership in the Federated Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan, did you hold membership in any other organiza-
tion?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Have you since the Federated Klan ceased to operate,
have you held membership in any other Klan organization ?
Mr. Morris. Not actual membership in the common terminology.
I was instrumental in forming the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan. I signed its charter and I was on its board for some little short
time.
Mr. Manuel. Were you a member of that organization ?
Mr. Morris. Not a dues-paying member ; no, sir.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3487
Mr. Manuel. In other words, you served on the board ?
Mr. Morris. I believe we held two meetings. I believe that is cor-
rect, two board meetings, and then 1 resigned.
Mr. Manuel. You resigned from what ?
Mr. Morris. From the board.
Mr. Manuel. Have 3^ou ever held membership in an organization
called the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan since your resignation from
the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir. I am one of the founders and was elected the
Emperor.
Mr. Manuel. Do you currently hold a position of Emperor in the
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. That is correct.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, are you appearing before the committee
this morning in response to a subpena served upon you at 9 :30 a.m.
on the 4th day of February 1966 at 330 Post Office Building, Birming-
ham, Alabama, by Deputy Marshal Daniel Moore?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, an attachment made part of your subpena
called for you to produce in paragraph 1 :
All books, records, documents, cori'espondence and memoranda of the Fed-
erated Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc., for the period from 1949 to date,
relating to its organization, business and affairs in your possession, custody or
control as Imperial Wizard of the said organization which the constitution and
by-laws of the said organization require or authorize you as such officer td
maintain.
Mr. Morris, in the representative capacity stated in paragraph 1, I
now ask you to produce the documents called for.
Mr. Morris. We have none. There is none in existence that I know
of.
Mr. Manuel. What happened to the records, Mr. Morris, that per-
tain to the Federated Klans ?
Mr. Morris. As I stated awhile ago, my home burned and all of my
furniture and everything I had, and the records that pertained to that
organization were in the house at that time.
Mr. Manuel. Were all of the records to your organization, to your
knowledge, destroyed ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. When did your house burn ?
Mr. Morris. About — let's see, this is 1966. It was about 1954 or
1955 at Waco, Georgia. I lived at Waco, Georgia, at that time.
Mr. Pool. You have not been an officer in the Klan since then?
Mr. Morris. Not in the Federated Klan. It was already out of
existence at that time.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, paragraph 2 of your subpena calls for
you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence and memoranda of the Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan, relating to its organization, business and affairs for the
period from April, 1965, to date, in your possession, custody or control, or main-
tained by or available to you in your capacity as Emperor of said organization.
Mr. Morris, in the representative capacity stated in paragraph 2,
I now ask you to produce the documents called for in that paragraph.
Mr. Morris. I will have to answer you this way, sir. The Emperor
3488 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
as designated in the constitution as being the philosophic and spiritual
head and his duty is to promulgate the ritualism of the Klan.
Now, I don't have any records of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
in my possession or control.
Mr. Manuel. This, sir, also includes all books, records, documents,
correspondence, and memoranda.
Mr. Morris. I have some of the Klorans in my control, certainly,
because I wrote them and I think you have one there. That is the
Kloran of the K-DUO.
Mr. Pool. You have already presented them to the staff.
Mr. Morris. No, sir; I have not, but I have one here.
Mr. Pool. Do you want to present them to the staff now ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
(Document handed to Mr. Manuel.)
(Document marked "William Morris Exhibit No. 1" and retained
in committee files.)
Mr. Manuel. Is this one document which you handed me, which
is the Kloran of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Atlanta, Georgia,
the only book or document or correspondence or piece of memoranda
that you have in your possession or control ?
Mr. Morris. I possibly have a few pieces of correspondence from
different people that I did not have on this such short notice time to
locate.
Mr. Pool. How long would it take you to locate it?
Mr. Morris. What I could find was possibly some communication —
one or two letters from Mr. Stephens, two or three other letters I
have, of course, and some application blanks.
Mr. Pool. Do you have any charters ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir ; we don't have a charter.
Mr. Pool. If we continue your subpena, would you furnish them
to the staff?
Mr. Morris. What I have and that which I can locate, I will be
glad to.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, as Emperor of the Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan, are you the chief executive officer of that organization?
Mr. Morris. No, sir ; I am as I stated, the philosophical and spiritual
head of the order. My sole job is to develop the Kloranic orders of the
Klan which have not been developed.
Mr. Manuel. Who is the chief executive officer of the Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. We really have none.
Mr. Manuel. How is it governed or ruled ?
Mr. Morris. I will have to explain to you this way, sir : The Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan — the idea behind forming the Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan was to develop the ritual of the three orders that never
had actually been developed. In 1922 when the machinery was set
in motion to oust Mr. Simmons, the Klan only had the one degree or
order and that was the Probationary or Border Realm of Klankraft.
After he was ousted, Dr. Evans did attempt to promulgate two
other degrees which — it w^as no continuing of Klankraft. So out of
the unpublished manuscripts of Colonel Simmons, I have been devel-
oping the K-DUO which I have developed and which is available.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3489
Mr. Manuel. These are the four degrees.
Mr. Morris. These are the four degrees of the Klan. This one^has
never been communicated and that is why the Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan was formed to have a vehicle.
There is no such thing as a Knight in the Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan, Kloranically or ritualistically speaking, because there has only
been one degree that has been developed.
It is like any other fraternal organization, any that I know any-
thing about, it takes at least three to complete the ritualism and make
you a bona fide member of any fraternal organization. Of course,
there are some where there are higher degrees that you can go on up
and up and up.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever initiated persons into the first degree
of Klansmanship or what you call the K-UNO ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Does initiation into that degree of^ Klansmanship
make a person a member of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. No.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Manuel, before we get away from the question on
the subpena there, what official did have control of these books, docu-
ments, and records and other things called for in the subpena ?
Mr. Morris. So far as I know, we actually have none.
Mr. Pool. You have no records ?
Mr. Morris. We have not actually projected it and put it into op-
eration. I w^as trying to explain what we were going to do.
Mr. Pool. No other official in your organization has any records as
called for in the subpena ?
Mr. Morris. Not to my knowledge, sir, not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. Pool. How about correspondence?
Mr. Morris. Let me say this : I will modify that to say that perhaps
Mr. Venable has some that is mixed in with the National Knights.
Mr. Pool. He has copies of letters he has written ; hasn't he ?
Mr. Morris. I suppose so. He is the counsel for the Klan.
Mr. Pool. Did you ever get any kind of a letter from Mr. Venable ?
Mr. Morris. Concerning the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Pool. Yes, or any matter.
Mr. Morris. Certainly.
Mr. Pool. So he should have copies of the letters he sent to you.
Mr. Morris. It is possible if it pertained to the Klan and it is possi-
ble if it is insignificant I wouldn't have it now.
Mr. Pool. Would you also include any letters that you received
from Mr. Venable or any other official in the Klan ?
Mr. Morris. Any that I have. I don't keep all of them. There are
some that are not of any importance, and I don't have a capacity for
doing a lot of filing.
Mr. Manuel. Along that same line, Mr. Chairman, I would like to
ask Mr. Morris if he retained copies of various documents he sent to
various individuals, under his own signature, making them officials or
organizers in the organization known as the Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan. And in asking Mr. Morris this question, I would like to show
him two such documents in the committee's possession, one making
B. J. Stephens a great titan of Province No. 2 for the Kealm of Ohio
3490 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
and one making Robert "Annabelle" a great titan for Province No. 3
of the Realm of Ohio.
Mr, Morris. I don't think that I have kept a copy. I probably made
a notation. I know who they are.
(Documents previously marked "Bobby Stephens Exhibits Nos.
8 and 9," respectively. See pp. 3415, 3416.)
Mr, Pool. Would you like to name who they are ? This would be a
good point for you to name them.
Mr. Morris. I appointed Mr. Stephens and Mr. Harris and I note
Mr. Lewis of Akron. I made him the kleagle.
I had had several conferences with Mr. Annable and I had thor-
oughly explained to him what, according to my knowledge, the Klan
was, and he was interested and he had it under consideration, and I
did send, because I needed a man of his caliber, and I did send this to
Mr. Stephens to give to him with the instruction if he became a mem-
ber, of course, he couldn't be an official unless he was a member. That
would be ridiculous.
Mr. Manuel. Was Mr. Stephens an official ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Was he a member ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manual. How many degrees of Klankraft did he take to
become a member of the Ku Klux Klan? You just stated if a man
just received K-UNO or the first degree, he does not become a member.
Now, how did Mr. Stephens become a member?
Mr. Morris. He is not a Knight. He cannot be a Knight until he
receives the fourth degree. That does not make him a Knight. That
makes him a Knight of the second degree or the beginning of Knight-
hood.
Mr. Manuel. What is the status of the person who just takes the
first degree ?
Mr. Morris. He is a Citizen of the Invisible Empire, that is, if
he has been properly instructed, he becomes a Citizen of the Invisible
Empire with the title.
Mr. Manual. Is the Citizen the same thing as a member of the
Klan?
Mr. Morris. He is a member of the Probationary or the Border
Realm. He has the title of Klansman, which is a borrowed title and
he is on probation, he is on trial, and if he proves himself worthy,
then he can apply for membership in the higher orders or degrees.
Then, according to the constitution, he is selected for these higher
degrees. If he, for some reason — if his character is not sufficient or
if he does not understand and has not been inculcated, then he wouldn't
be advanced any further.
Mr. Pool, It looks to me like you have so many different degrees of
his status, you ought to keep memoranda to see what steps or level he
is on.
Mr. Morris. Sir, this has never actually been instituted yet. We
are laying the groundw^ork. We are going to form this out of members
of various Klan groups
Mr. Pool. Did you write letters on everything or did you make some
oral appointments ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3491
Mr. Morris. Sir?
Mr. Pool. Were some of your appointments oral and some written ?
Mr. Morris. I haven't any appointments that are not written.
Mr. Pool. So you would have copies of everything?
Mr. Morris. I can tell you — have already stated to the committee
who they are.
Mr. Pool. You have a very big organization, and it looks to me
like you would get confused if you didn't keep any records.
Mr. Morris. We don't have a big organization. We are just getting
the groundwork laid and we have not actually put it into physical
operation.
Mr. Pool. Go ahead, Mr. Manuel.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, I am a little bit confused about the status
of the two organizations, the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
and the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, which was organized after
the National Ivnights.
Could you tell me why it was necessary to start the Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan when the National Knights were already in existence
in Ohio?
Mr. Morris. Well, sir, it is probably due for sentimental reasons,
perhaps. The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan was a continuation of
the old Klan under reconstruction days.
I simply wanted to become a member of the Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan again, without anything before it or behind it, and I wanted to
develop the ritualism of the Klan and let it be a memorial to Colonel
Simmons, who started it and was not allowed to finish it.
If that is a worthy motive, that is my motive for doing that.
Mr. Manuel. Taking the Realm of Ohio, which was first developed,
as the committee understands it, by the National Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan in the autumn of 1964, after the organization of the
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, the organization Avhich you belong to,
did you assume the members of what was previously the National
Knights?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. What was the status of those members in the Na-
tional Knights after you organized the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. Those that wanted to remain in the National Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan were free to do so. This was not a proselyting
expedition that I was on. Mr. Venable and I are friends. We prob-
ably don't agree with each other on everything, and I don't know
everybody who does, but we are not at swords points, we are not
fighting each other.
I don't care what Klan operates where so long as it is decent and
respectable and does carry out this ritualism and does conduct itself
as a Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Is Mr. Venable a member of the Imperial Kloncilium ?
Mr. Morris. He is our attorney.
Mr. Manuel. Is he also a member of the Imperial Kloncilium ?
Mr. Morris. As an attorney, he would be ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Does he hold any other title within the Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
3492 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. What is his title in the National Knights of the Ku
KluxKlan?
Mr. Morris. He is the Imperial Wizard.
Mr, Manuel. What other members are there on the Imperial Klon-
cilium of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. There is the Imperial Kloncilium, which has not ac-
tually been completed because we are handpicking good men out of
the various Klan oragnizations so that they may select the rank-and-
file membership who are worthy.
Mr. Manuel. How many members of the Imperial Kloncilium
are there as of this minute ?
Mr. Morris. There are 12.
Mr. Manuel. How many ?
Mr. Morris. Twelve.
Mr. Manuel. Would you name the 12 individuals who comprise the
Imperial Kloncilium of the Knights ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir; I am oath-bound and honor-bound not to
reveal their names.
Mr. Manuel. In other words, you decline to answer the question
on the basis of your Klan oath ?
Mr. Morris. On my Klan oath and on my honor, I have given my
word and my honor.
Mr. Pool. What is the question, Mr. Manuel?
Mr. Manuel. I asked Mr. Morris to identify the 12 members of the
Imperial Kloncilium of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. Mr. Mor-
ris' answer is because of his Klan oath and because he is honor-bound
to do so he refuses to answer the question.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Morris, I direct and order you to answer the question.
Mr. Morris. Sir, I will respectfully decline to do so on the grounds
of the 1st, 5th, and 14th amendment.
Mr. Pool. Including the fifth amendment.
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. You are talking about the self-incrimination clause.
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir; and the fourth amendment that guarantees
me under the Constitution.
Mr. Pool. Is that the reason you are invoking the fifth amendment
because of the self-incrimination part of it?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. I would like to continue with the reading of Mr.
Morris' subpena.
Paragraph 3, Mr. Morris, in your subpena, calls for you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence and memoranda of the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc., relating to its organization, business and
affairs for the period from 1963 to date, in your possession, custody or control
and which by the constitution and by-laws of said corporation are required or
authorized to be maintained by or available to you as Imperial Emperor of
said corporation.
Mr. Morris. Sir, I am not the "Imperial Emperor" of that organiz-
ation because there is no such title, in the first place, as an Imperial
Emperor. In the second place, as I so stated, I am no longer a member
of the Imperial Kloncilium and I have no records.
Mr. Pool. Have you ever had any records?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3493
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. In that capacity.
Mr. Morris. Sir?
Mr. Pool. In that capacity.
Mr. Morris. In that capacity or any capacity in the National
Knights — I have never had any documents.
Mr. Pool. Books, memoranda.
Mr. Morris. What I had I reproduced the original concerning
Simmons' Kloran of the K-DUO and I gave them to Mr. Venable
sometime ago.
Mr. Pool. So your statement now is that you do not have any
records
Mr. Morris. That is correct.
Mr. Pool. In accordance with the subpena of paragraph 3.
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Maxuel. Paragraph 4 of your subpena, Mr. Morris, calls upon
you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence and memoranda of tbe Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan
Mr. Pool. Just a minute, Mr. Manuel.
Did you say you don't think so, or "I do not"?
Mr. Morris. I do not have any.
Mr. Manuel. Paragraph 4 of your subpena, Mr. Morris calls upon
you to produce:
All books, records, documents, correspondence and memoranda of the Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan relating to its organization, business and affairs, in your
possession, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you in your
capacity as a member of the Imperial Kloncilium of the said Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan.
Now, in the representative capacity stated in paragraph 4, I ask
you to produce any books, documents, or records which you have in
your possession, or available to you.
Mr. Morris. My answer to that would have to be the same as it
was to the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. My position would be the
same and my answer would be the same to that as it was to the other
question.
Mr. Manuel. In other words, as far as the organization of the
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan is concerned, you will produce all docu-
ments that you have in your possession, custody, or control?
Mr. Morris. That is right, letters, you know, whatever — there
wouldn't be very much of anything.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, did this include copies of all corre-
spondence which you have had with other members of the Imperial
Kloncilium?
Mr. Morris. Any copies — I didn't make copies of all correspondence
but the correspondence there was of any significance, I suppose I
would have.
Mr. Mani'el. To your knowledge, do the other members of the Im-
perial Kloncilium of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan maintain
and have records of that organization ?
Mr. Morris. Not to my knowledge; no, sir, not to my knowledge;
no, sir.
59-222 O— 67— pt. 5 2
3494 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. Is it your testimony that they do not ?
Mr. Morris. That would be my testimony ; yes, sir. To my knowl-
edge, they do not. I would see no reason for them to have any.
Mr. Manuel. Paragraph 5 of your subpena calls upon you to
produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence and memoranda of the Na-
tional Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc., relating to its organization, business
and affairs, in your possession, custody or control, or maintained by or available
to you in your capacity as a member of the Imperial Kloncilium of said National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc.
Mr. Morris, as a member of the Imperial Kloncilium of the National
Knights, I now ask you to produce the items called for in paragraph 5.
Mr. Morris. In the first place, I am no longer a member and, in
the second place, I don't have any,
Mr. Manuel. Have you served as a member of the Imperial Klon-
cilium of the National Knights ?
Mr. Morris. I believe for two meetings, two executive meetings only.
Mr. Manuel. How many members are there of the Imperial Klon-
cilium ?
Mr. Morris. I do not know, sir.
Mr. Manuel. At the time of your membership on that body, how
many members were there ?
Mr. Morris. There were three.
Mr. Manuel. Would you name the three persons who comprise the
Imperial Kloncilium of the National Knights?
Mr. Morris. Mr. Venable, Mr. Hill, and myself— Mr. H. G. Hill,
Mr. James R. Venable, Mr. H. G. Hill, and myself.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, why is it that you would respond to the
identity of the members of the Imperial Kloncilium of the National
Knights and yet refuse on the grounds of the fifth amendment to pro-
vide the committee with the identity of the members of the Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. Now, that is a tricky question that I don't understand,
sir.
Mr. Manuel. Very simply, when I asked you to identify the mem-
bers of the Imperial Kloncilium of the Kights of the Ku Klux Klan,
you took the fifth amendment in refusing to answer that question.
When I asked you to identify the members of the Imperial Klon-
cilium of the National Knights you identified Mr. Venable, Reverend
Hill, and yourself.
My question was why did you take the fifth amendment in response
to the question regarding the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, and
identify the members of the Imperial Kloncilium of the National
Knights ?
Mr. Morris. Because I felt it was necessary.
Mr. Manuel. In other words, naming the members of the National
Knights, you feel, will not incriminate you, but naming the members
of the Knights, you feel, will incriminate you as far as a future crim-
inal proceeding is concerned ?
Again, I only asked you for identity.
Mr. Morris. Are you asking a question ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3495
Mr. Morris. I f oel it is necessary.
Mr. Manuel. I am only restricting my question to the Imperial
Kloncilium and not the membership in general.
Mr. Morris. I understand that.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, did you ever know Mrs. Eloise Witte to
be an official member of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. I assumed that she was.
Mr. Manuel. On what did you base that assumption ?
Mr. Morris. On conversations with her and Mr. Venable.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, was Mrs. Witte appointed to
any position in the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. I can't honestly say to my knowledge. She was sup-
posed to have been.
Mr. Manuel. What title did Mrs. Witte have in that organization?
Mr. Morris. I don't know her title, but she was supposed to be in
charge of the women's organization for the National Knights.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever know her to go by the title of Grand
Empress of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. I don't know whether she assumed that title or went
under that title. I actually have no knowledge of lier going under any
title, my personal knowledge. Of course, newspaper accounts showed
her as Grand Empress and different titles, but so far as her saying to
me that she was the Grand Empress or the Empress or whatever, I
don't recall her ever telling me.
She did tell me that she was supposed to be the head of the women's
Klan in Ohio for Mr. Venable.
Mr. Manuel. She did tell you that?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir ; at one time.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee, Mr. Morris, when she
made that statement to you ?
Mr. Morris. Sometime during last summer.
Mr. Manuel. Could you set an approximate date ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir. I don't want to be evasive, but I don't know.
It was some time between May and August.
Mr. Manuel. When did you first meet Mrs. Witte, Mr. Morris?
Mr. Morris. Three or four years ago.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee the circumstances under
which you met Mrs. Witte ?
Mr. Morris. Mr. Venable and myself was on our way to Columbus,
Ohio, on invitation to address a rally for the National Association for
the Advancement of White People and we stopped over in Cincinnati,
and Mr. Venable had previously met Mrs. Witte, and he called her on
the phone and talked to her and her husband, and they came down
to the hotel and we talked for a while, and that w\as the first time I
met her.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever give Mrs. Witte an oath making her —
or the K-UNO oath in the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. I don't know if I gave her the oath or not, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Try to recall, please. Is it possible that you did?
Mr. Morris. It is ])ossible that I did or someone else gave it to her.
Mr. Pool. Would the witness pull the microphone closer to him so
people can hear him ?
3496 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Morris. I think she was a member, if that will answer your
question.
As to who gave her the obligation, she can answer that better than
I can. I don't recall whether I gave it to her or whether somebody
else did.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, do you know^ Daniel Wagner ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. When did you first meet Mr. Wagner ?
Mr. Morris. At Mrs. Witte's house.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mrs. Witte introduce you to Mr. Wagner?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. What did Mrs. Witte say to you in introducing you
to Mr. Wagner ?
Mr. Morris. She just introduced me to him as Danny Wagner.
Mr. Manuel. Can you recall the approximate date on which you
met Mr. Wagner ?
Mr. Morris. Sometime last summer.
Mr. Manuel. Sometime last summer?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you meet Mr. Wagner prior to the rally which
w^as held at Parkie Scott's farm ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. That rally was May 28 and 29.
Mr. Morris. Yes, I came up to Ohio the first part of May and I met
him sometime in the first w-eek or two that I w-as in Ohio.
Mr. Manuel. Again, in introducing you to Mr. Wagner, did Mrs.
Witte make any statements to you regarding Mr. Wagner, his activi-
ties, his character, his potential, or anything like that ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did not?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Wagner, to your direct knowledge, subse-
quently become a member of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir ; he did not.
Mr. Manuel. Did you at Akron, Ohio, on July 18, 1965, administer
the K-UNO oath to Mr. Wagner in the presence of Mr. Bobby J.
Stephens ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. You did not ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, has Mr. Wagner ever received
that oath ?
Mr. Morris. Unless he received it from Bobby Stephens, he has not,
because he is not proper material. I would not associate with him in
anything.
Mr. Pool. We can't hear you. I asked you once to talk a little
louder and into the microphone so people can hear what you have
to say.
Mr. Morris. I w^ould not invite him into my home and I would not
tolerate his membership in the Klan.
Mr. Manuel. On approximately July 5, 1965, was a letter read in
your presence and also in the presence of Mr. Bobby J. Stephens, was
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3497
the letter read by Verlin Gilliam outlining the conversations which
Mr. Wagner had had with Mrs. Witte ? (See Bobby Stephens Exhibit
No. 5, pp. 3398-S407.)
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. What was your reaction to the reading of that par-
ticular letter?
Mr. Morris. It was surprise. I felt it was ridiculous. It is hard
to describe my exact feelings — certainly not that of alarm.
Mr. Manuel. Did you have any conversations with Mrs. Witte re-
garding the contents of that letter ?
Mr. Morris. We laughed about it ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. What conversation did you have ?
Mr. Morris. I asked her first did she know that she had been plot-
ting to kill her husband, and she read it and said no, and we talked
about it.
Mr. Manuel. Did you question Mrs. Witte specifically concerning
the portion of that letter which had to do with a plot to assassinate
you?
Mr. Morris. I mentioned it to her.
Mr. Manuel. What was Mrs. Witte's reaction that time ?
Mr. Morris. We both laughed about it.
Mr. Manuel. Did she deny it ?
Mr. Morris. Well, it was so ridiculous I don't know if she in so
many words denied it. It was not necessary.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever see Daniel Wagner again after that
letter was written to you ?
Mr. Morris. Possibly so. I was in Columbus at that time, and he
possibly came by Mr. Stephens' house on one or tw^o occasions.
Mr. Manuel. Were you there at that time ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir; I guess so. I think I seen him once or twice
since the letter.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever see Mr. Wagner after you had conversa-
tion with Mrs. Witte regarding the contents of the letter?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir; I think so. I would say yes.
Mr. Manuel. When and where was that?
Mr. Morris. At Mr. Stephens'.
Mr. Manuel. Did any conversation take place between you and
Mr. Wagner at that time ?
Mr. Morris. Not that I recall.
Mr. Manuel. Again, your testimony is, after the reading of that
letter, you are telling the committee that you never gave Mr. Wagner
the oath, the K-TTNO oath at Akron, Ohio, on July 18, 1965 ?
Mr. Morris. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Did you administer the oath at that time, on that
date, to any individual ?
Mr. Morris. I have never administered the oath or any part of the
ritualism at any time in the presence of Mr. Wagner.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, would you please explain to the com-
mittee the difference, if any, between administering K-UNO or the
first degree to a potential Klansman as contrasted with giving a man
an oath ? " ,
Mr. Morris. Giving a man an oath is simply binding him to secrecy
and to loyalty and all of the things that the oath binds a man.
3498 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
It simply does not give him any of the ritualism, and he does not
have the benefit of the Klan's ritualism teachings, and it is to his
best interests that he just receive the oath. He needs to receive the
Kloranic instruction as well. They are just as important, if not more
important, than his obligation, because it teaches certain things and
lays the groundwork for Kloranic advancement and actually it should
be carried out that way.
Mr, Manuel. Now, did you at any time, Mr. Morris, in light of your
response to that question, administer an oath to Mr. Wagner or any
segment of ritualistic work at any time ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir; I ^vouldn't under any circumstances, divulge
any part of Klankraft to him because, as I say, I don't think he is
mentally capable of absorbing it. He is too much of a mad dog in his
thinking. I don't know anything about his character, but he is too
radical. I don't think he would understand a bit. I don't think he
would absorb any of the philosophy of the Klan.
I think he thinks it is a rabid, anti-Negro organization, and I think
his conception of it would be he would not be a good one unless he
went out and killed a "nigger" every morning before breakfast.
I am not interested in that type of thinking.
Mr. Manuel. Did you give the oath to any individual on July 18,
1965, at Akron, Ohio?
Mr. Morris. I don't know wdiat date.
Mr. Manuel. On that approximate date, do you recall whether you
administered oaths to certain individuals in Akron, Ohio?
Mr. Morris. No, sir ; I don't recall.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know Mr. Verlin Gilliam ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know him to be a member of the Knights of
the KuKlux Klan?
Mr. Morris. No, sir; he is not a member of the Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Did you know him to be a member of the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir ; I can't actually say that.
Mr. Pool. In wdiat manner is he actually associated with the Ku
Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. I don't know to my knowledge that he is. I have never
been in any kind of meeting wnth him.
Mr. Manuel. Wasn't it Mr. Gilliam who read you the contents of
that letter written by Mr. Wagner ?
Mr. Morris. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. What contacts did you have with Mr. Gilliam prior
to the reading of that letter ?
Mr. Morris. I met Mr. Gilliam the first time we went to Columbus
to speak at the National Association for the Advancement of White
People, and I saw him on quite a few occasions.
Mr. Manuel. How did you know Mr. Gilliam was in possession of
that letter?
Mr. Morris. He told me he had it.
Mr. Manuel. Why would he tell you a thing like that ?
Mr. Morris. I don't know.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3499
Mr. Pool. What was the occasion for him telling you?
Mr. Morris. He told me he had something that he thought I ought
to know. No, he didn't tell me — he told me he could get something or
he knew something I ought to know and he carried me, and I talked
to Danny, and Danny Wagner told me verbally, and I told him to put
it in writing.
He gave it to Mr. Gilliam instead of giving it to me.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, as a matter of fact, did you not advise
Mr. Wagner over the telephone from your home in Buchanan, Geor-
gia, to put that material that he had in writing ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. You did ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. For what reason did you so advise Mr. Wagner ?
Mr. Morris. It was so fantastic I wanted him to put it in writing in
his own style and language, and if I deemed that it was of enough
importance, I intended to turn it over to the proper authorities be-
cause in it there was a threat to the President of the United States.
Mr. Manuel. Did you, as a matter of fact, ever advise proper au-
thorities as to the contents of that letter ?
Mr. Morris. I talked to the FBI about it. I talked to them, and
they talked to me.
Mr. Manuel. Can you give the committee a brief resume of what
you stated to the FBI at that time ?
Mr. Morris. I told them, in my opinion, that he had hallucinations
of grandeur and was not responsible. I don't remember — we talked a
good bit about that and other things.
Mr. Manuel. Could you give the committee the date you gave this
statement to the FBI ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Was it after the contents of the letter were read to
you by Verlin Gilliam ?
Mr. Morris. It was after Mr. Gilliam and Mr. Wagner had been
arrested. It was sometime after that.
Mr. Pool. Did you go to the FBI, or did they come to you ?
Mr. Morris. They called me at Buchanan and told me that they had
this information and wanted to come out and talk with me. My wife
was somewhat nervous at times, and I was going to Atlanta anyhow,
I believe the next day, and I told them I would come to Atlanta and
we would discuss it, and we did.
Mr. Manuel. As a matter of fact, you never volunteered the in-
formation to any law enforcement authority?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. If they had not have contacted you, would you have con-
tacted the FBI ?
Mr. Morris. I didn't know whether the letter was actually still in
existence or not.
Mr. Pool. Did you think it was so fantastic there wasn't any reason
to contact the FBI ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir ; I certainly did.
Mr. Pool. Are you a student of history? I am talking about the as-
sassination of other Presidents in the United States. Are you familiar
3500 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
with the circumstances surrounding the assassination of Abraham
Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley ?
Mr. Morris. I have read some of it ; yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. Do you think they were fantastic ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, as a Klan leader and as an official, after
you heard the contents of the letter written by Daniel Wagner, did
you initiate any typo of an investigation to determine whether the
contents of that letter were accurate or not?
Mr, Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you speak to Mr. Wagner? Did Mr. Wagner
ever tell you the contents of that letter wore true and correct as he
did before this committee ?
Mr. Morris. He told me at the time it was. He told me at the
time, but I never discussed it with him any more at any time after
that.
Mr. Manuel. He told you it was true, and you did nothing to deter-
mine whether it was or not ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you talk to Mrs. Witte after Mr. Wagner said
the contents were true ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did she deny that the contents of that letter were
correct ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir ; she certainly did.
Mr. Manuel. And it is your testimony, as I understand it, in light
of no other investigative action on your part that you took Mrs.
Witte's word over Mr. Wagner's in this regard; is that correct?
Mr. Morris. That is absolutely correct.
Mr. Manuel. Was there anyone else present when you spoke with
Mrs. Witte regarding the contents of this letter?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Was there anyone present when you spoke of the
contents with Mr. Wagner ?
Mr. Morris. Other than Mr. Stephens and Mr. Gilliam, no one else.
Mr. Pool. What did Mrs. Witte tell you when you asked her about
the letter?
Mr. Morris. She said it was fantastic and, of course, was utterly
ridiculous.
Mr. Pool. Did she try to explain any of the contents of the letter ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, as the result of a Klan rally which was
held on Parkie Scott's farm in Oregonia, Ohio, May 28 and 29, Mr.
Wagner, who at times during that rally was dressed in Klan robe and
was armed at least with a rifle, was present, according to press reports.
Can you enlighten the committee as to how Mr. Wagner could be at
a Klan rally dressed in a Klan robe and carrying a rifle without being
a member of that organization ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir; I certainly can. It was my knowledge — I
didn't know that he was going to he there, and the first morning I
got there he was there with a rifle and it was my understanding — Mr.
Scott was at work — and it was my understanding that Mr. Scott who
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3501
owned the farm had hired him. The Klan certainly did not. Some-
body had tried to tear the Khin sign down the night before, and Mr.
Wagner told me that jMr. Scott had given him instructions not to let
anybody in on the farm.
I spent the day, almost all day, taking his rifle away from him.
Every time I would turn around, some of the news media would have
him again with his rifle, taking pictures of it; and that afternoon —
there is a hme coming up in to the house, I guess you would call it a
lane, a narrow road, anyway — and the first thing I knew Danny was
out at the end of the lane with a Klan robe on talking to the news-
papers.
1 sent someone out there after him and got him back there and made
him take the robe off. When Mr. Scott come in from work, I told him
that w^e had plenty of law enforcement officers there to take care of
any situation that might arise and, if it was going to be the policy to
have hell-raisers there with guns that I had to disarm every 15 minutes
and every time my back was turned he would have another one, or
have the gun again, that I would call the rally off then and there and
pack my bag and go back to Birmingham.
He agreed, and the law officers had assured me that they were there
to protect us and protect everybody else, and that is the way that
it has always been conducted.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, are you absolutely certain Mr. Wagner
w^as hired by Mr. Scott as you previously stated?
Mr. Morris. I am not absolutely certain of it. I believe Mrs. Witte
told me that he had him hired.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Wagner testified that he was at that rally at the
invitation of Mrs. Witte.
Mr. Morris. Well, she can answer that question better than I can.
I don't know whether Mr. Scott hired him or Mrs. Witte. I really
don't know.
Mr. Manuel. Do you l<:now where he got the Klan robe?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know where he got the rifle ?
Mr. Morris. It w^as his rifle, as I understood it.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Wagner testified that he obtained this rifle at the
urging of Mrs. Witte from a William Davis of Dayton, Ohio.
Do you know this testimony to be correct ?
Mr. Morris. I have no knowledge of where he got the rifle, or any-
thing about it.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know Mr. William Davis of Dayton, Ohio?
Mr. Morris. Xo, sir; I don't know if I do or not. I may have met
him, but I don't know. I don't know any gun dealers. I would have
no reasons to know them. I don't know if I know the man or not,
really.
Mr. Pool. I believe you said you discussed the contents of this letter
wnth Mr. Gilliam and Mr. Stephens.
Mr. Morris. It was read in their presence. We didn't have a long-
discussion about it. There w\as some animosity between Mr. Stephens
and Mrs. Witte, and of course Mr. Stephens tried to make it appear
in a pretty serious light.
3502 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. He didn't think the letter was fantastic; did he?
Mr. Morris. He didn't comment on it too much. I don't remember
his exact reaction.
Mr. Pool. What was Mr. Gilliam's attitude?
Mr. Morris. I don't think he had very much to say about it.
Mr. Pool. Didn't he think it was a pretty serious matter ?
Mr. Morris. I don't recall him expressing himself that way.
Mr. Pool. Go ahead, Mr. Manuel.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, do you have knowledge that Mr. Gilliam
and Mr. Wagner made a trip to the State of Georgia and returned to
Ohio in possession of a quantity of dynamite?
Mr. Morris. No, sir ; I do not.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have any knowledge whatsoever of dynamite
being transported from the State of Georgia to the State of Ohio?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, concerning the rally held on Parkie
Scott's farm, was there a rally of the National Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan or the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. It was advertised as the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Venable was there, and it was a joint effort.
Mr. Manuel. A joint effort.
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. On the part of the Knights and the National
Knights ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, would you explain to the committee how
it is possible, in view of your statements regarding both the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan,
how it is possible for both organizations to sponsor a rally?
Mr. Morris. It is just as possible for two Klan organizations to
sponsor a rally as it would be for two churches to join hands in a
revival, which is often done. I see nothing unusual about that.
Mr. Pool. Did you take up any collection ?
Mr. Morris. I think at one of the meetings there was a collection
taken up to help defray some expenses for Mr. Scott. That is the
only collection I have any knowledge of.
Mr. Pool. Did both organizations have collection-takers?
Mr. Morris. Not that I know of ; no, sir.
Mr. Pool. What happened to the money ?
Mr. Morris. It was given to Mr. Scott.
Mr. Manuel. This is the rally at his farm in May ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Scott, I believe, testified that the only money he
received as the result of that rally was $1 for the rental of his farm.
Is his testimony correct in that regard?
Mr. Morris. He received a dollar and then I think, as I previously
stated, I believe there was a collection taken up.
Mr. Pool. You say you "believe" it. Do you know it?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir; I know it.
Mr. Pool. You are under oath here and you are testifying and
you know it.
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir; I know it.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3503
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, whose applications were passed out at
the Memorial Day rally?
Mr. Morris. As I recall it, there were some applications signed in
the National Knights, some with the Knights, and some on the Dixie
Klan's application blanks.
Mr. Manuel. Was the Dixie Klan also participating in the rally?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. How could their applications be passed out?
Mr. Morris. I think Mrs. Witte had taken some of the applications.
I think she wrote up some on her forms.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know Mrs. Witte to be a member or organizer
for the Dixie Knights of the Klan?
Mr. Morris. I am not trying to confuse you. I don't think the ap-
plication was taken for the Dixie Klans. It was taken for the
Knights of the Klan on Dixie application blanks.
Mr. Manuel. How did you determine who got which application ?
Mr. Morris. I don't understand your question.
Mr. Manuel. You said applications were passed out
Mr. Morris. I said — what I meant to convey, I think at that time
there were applications signed that had the Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan. Some of them had the National Knights and some were signed
on the Dixie Klan, but they all came into the same place. There
weren't actually three different organizations bidding for member-
ship there.
Does that answer your question?
Mr. Pool. In other words, you did not have enough blanks and
you used the Dixie Klan blanks, but it was intended for the other
klan?
Mr. Morris. That is exactly right.
Mr. Manuel. Which Klan ultimately received the members who
signed the applications?
Mr. Morris. The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Of which you are the Emperor ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. I would like to show you an application for citizen-
ship in the Invisible Empire, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, on which
is also written the "Federated Ku Klux Klans, Inc.," and that part
is inked out. I would like for you to examine this document and I
would like for you to tell the committee whether this is a copy of the
applications which were made available at the Ohio rally in May?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir ; this is some of them. This is some of them ;
yes, sir.
(Document marked "William Morris Exhibit No. 2" and retained in
committee files.)
Mr. Manuel. How many applications in total were passed out at
that rally ?
Mr. Morris. I don't know.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have an estimate, over a hundred, over 500,
whatever it is ?
Mr. Morris. I would say approximately 300.
Mr. Manuel. Approximately 300.
Mr. Morris. Were signed.
3504 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. What happened to the applications after they were
signed ?
Mr. Morris. Some of them had paid and some hadn't paid, and those
that were paid were processed, investigated, and inducted into the
Klan at a later date.
Mr. Manuel. How much money was realized from those who paid
at the time they signed their application ?
Mr. Morris. I don't recall exactly. There was something over a
hundred that paid — approximately 150, 1 suppose.
Mr. Manuel. How much money did each person pay — actually pay
in?
Mr. Morris. $15.
Mr. Manuel. So that if there were 100 applications turned in at
$15 apiece, it would be $1,500.
Mr. Morris. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. What happened to that money ?
Mr, Morris. After the expense of printing and incidental expenses
that went to holding the rally, that money w^as put in trust for the
Klan in Ohio.
Mr. Manuel. Put in trust, and wdiere w^as it kept ?
Mr. Morris. I left all of the records, the membership, the applica-
tions, and those that had paid and those that had not paid in alpha-
betical order. I left them with Mr. Stephens and so far as I know, he
still has them.
Mr. Pool. How much profit did you make on that rally?
Mr. Morris. I think I left for the Klan in Ohio, I think I left
around — in application funds, around $1,000.
Mr. Pool. So it cost you about $500 to put on the rally ?
Mr. Morris. Something in that neighborhood.
Mr. Manuel. Who has access to that money ?
Mr. Morris. Mr. Stephens.
Mr. Manuel. Is he the only one ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Was there an actual trust agreement signed ?
Mr. Morris. He signed a receipt for it, a receipt for the applica-
tions, those that had paid and those that hadn't. Of course, he was
to hold that in trust until the Klans were formed and he would receive
a part of it and a part of it would go into the treasury of the local
Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Who has the receipt that Mr. Stephens signed?
Mr. Morris. I do.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have any receipts of any other money that was
deposited in the same fashion ?
Mr. Morris. That is all I have anything to do with.
Mr. Pool. Are you going to present that to the committee as part
of the documents and records that were called for in the subpena ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, what happened to the applications after
you received them after that rally ? In other words, if a person filled
m an application such as this, what would happen to it?
Mr. Morris. To the application ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3505
Mr. Morris. That would become the permanent property of the
Klan and iiltmiately that would go to the local Klan that was estab-
lished, as part of the member's permanent record.
Mr. Manuel. My question to you is : Did the persons wdio signed
these applications ultimately become members of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. If the investigation proved them worthy, if their char-
acter was good, their morals were good, and their vocation was hon-
orable and they passed the constitutional requirements for member-
ship, they were inducted ; if not, their money was returned to them.
Mr. Manuel. "Wliat investigation did you conduct to assure that
the character, and so forth, as you have described it, of these appli-
cants was of the level acceptable to the Klan ?
Mr. Morris. If you will turn over to the back there you will see
where it has the references on the back there. It has the man's occu-
pation, his age, and all of the pertinent information that is necessary.
And on the basis of that, you make discrete inquiries and learn some-
thing about the man's background.
Mr. Manuel. What discrete inquiries did you make concerning all
of these applicants in the State of Ohio as the result of just that one
rally ? There were two others in whicli you participated.
Mr. Morris. Some of them I did, and some of them other people
did for me.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have a board of investigators for the Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan in Ohio ?
Mr. Morris. When a Klan is established, there will be a board of
investigators.
Mr. Manuel. Did you specifically have one in this instance?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge, were these applications
investigated ?
Mr. Morris. I think not as thoroughly, certainly, as they would be
after a Klan is established.
Mr. Pool. How are you going to establish a Klan ? Do you mean
the charter members will not be investigated ?
Mr. Morris. Certainly they will be investigated, but after you get
a Klan established they have much better machinery to do that.
Mr. Pool. The original members are not going to be investigated.
You are just going to take the date on the back of the original appli-
cation ?
Mr. Morris. How is that, sir ?
Mr. Pool. With the original members, you have no investigators to
investigate the original incorporators or charter members of the unit.
Mr. Morris. They are investigated, but not as thoroughly.
Mr. Pool. Who investigates them ?
Mr. Morris. Some people that are already members of the Klan.
We wouldn't take an outside source of information.
Mr. AIanuel. Specifically in this case, in the case of the May rally
at Parkie Scott's farm, who investigated the applications that were
received by the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. I investigated some of them, Mrs. Witte investigated
some of them
Mr. Pool. What did your investigation consist of? What did
you do?
3506 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Morris. We would verify their employment and find out what
some of the references thought of them as to their character
Mr. Pool. How did you do this ?
Mr. Morris. By telephone or personal contact.
Mr. Pool. Whom did you call?
Mr. Morris. I called the references.
Mr, Pool. You called the references listed there ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir ; and if there was any derogatory information
turned up, we would look further.
Mr. Pool. Did you try to investigate them outside of the references
they listed? Nobody would list a reference that would give them a
bad name, I don't suppose.
Mr. Morris. Sometimes they do.
Mr. Pool. I guess it is possible.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, how long did it take for this investigation
to be made on an individual ?
Mr. Morris. I believe that it was 6 weeks or something like about 6
weeks.
Mr. Manuel. I would like to show you a copy of a letter
Mr. Morris. It might have been a month.
Mr. Manuel. Pardon ?
Mr. Morris. It might have been a month or 6 weeks.
Mr. Manuel. I would like to show you a copy of a letter dated
June 11, 1965, P.O. Box 23036, Cincinnati Ohio, 45223, the letter states
as follows :
Dear Sir:
Having made application for citizenship with us sometime ago, we are pleased
to inform you that you have been found worthy for membership.
please appear at the same location our rally was held in the Lebanon area.
In case you did not attend, this is the farm of Parkie Scott. The dead end of
Lincoln Rd. Which runs ofC Wilmington.
If all fees have not been paid, please be there early. The initiation is sched-
uled for twelve-o-clock, and all papers must be in order by that time. No one
will be admitted to the grounds after twelve.
No visitors will be weclone [sic] except Klanspeople. We caution you to
destroy this notice and to tell no one, even your family where you will be at this
time.
Bring the empty envelope from this letter to admit you to the farm. The date
is June 27th, and the time is TWELVE NOON.
Looking forward to seeing you there,
Sincerely Yours,
/s/ Wm. Hugh Morris
Wm. Hugh Morkis.
I hand you a copy of this letter, Mr. Morris, and ask you to advise
the committee if you did send out letters like this and, further, to
identify the persons who received such letters ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir; this was sent out by my authorization.
(Document marked "William Morris No. 3" appears on p. 3507.)
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, who maintains Post Office Box
23036 in Cincinnati ?
Mr. Morris. I paid the rent on it while I was there. I don't know
if it is still being maintained there or not.
Mr. Manuel. Did you keep a list of those who were initiated as
the result of receiving this letter ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3507
William Morris Exhibit No. 3
P. O. BOX 23036
CINCINNATI, OHIO 45223
J-ane 11, I965
Dear Sir:
Raving made application for citizenship vdth us some time ago,
we are pleased to inform you that you have been found worthy
for membership.
please appear at the same location our rally was held in the
Lebanon area. In case you did not attend, this is the farm of
Parkie Scott, The dead end of Lincoln Rd, YJhich runs off
Vfi.lmington.
If all fees have not been paid, please be there early. The
initation is scheduled for twelve - o - clock, and all papers
must be in order by that time. No one will be admitted to the
grounds after twelve.
No visitors will be welcone except Klanspeople. We caution you
to destroy this notice and to tell no one, even your family
where you will be at this time.
Bring the empty envelope from this letter to admit you to the
farm. The date is June27th, and the time KffiLVE NOON*
Looking forv^ard to seeing you there.
Sincerely Yours,
Vilm. Hugh Morris
Mr. Manuel. Wliat happened to that, Mr. Morris ?
Mr. Morris. I turned it over to Mr. Stephens.
Mr. Manuel. The Klan had two other rallies. What happened to
the records and results of those two rallies, namely, the one at Lodi
and the other, I believe, sometime in August in
Mr. Morris. One in Brunswick and one in Lodi. Mr. Scott kept
those records.
Mr. Manuel. Did he also keep the proceeds of any moneys that
were received by the Klan ?
Mr. Morris. I received no money from him. He reported to Mr.
Venable, and Mr. Venable has those records. I don't have them.
3508 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. Out of the three rallies that were held in Ohio, Mr.
Morris, did you realize any financial gain as the result of them ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you receive any money whatsoever?
Mr. Morris. Very little. You can look 'at my bank account and
tell that.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee approximately how
much you received ?
Mr. Morris. A part of my expenses, possiblv $150 at one time,
possibly $250.
Mr. Manuel. All together ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Venable receive any money from those
rallies ?
Mr. Morris. Xot to my knowledge ; no, sir.
Mr. Manltel. Mr. Morris, in traveling to Ohio to initiate members
into the Klan, did a special degree team accompany you from the
State of Georgia ?
Mr. Morris. They didn't accompany me. I was already here.
Mr. Manitel. Did you have knowledge that a degree team did come
from Georgia to help initiate members into the Ohio Eealm?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please identify members of the degree
team who initiated people into the Ohio Realm ?
Mr. Morris. Mr. Venable brought that degree team, and I didn't
know the gentleman, so I suppose he knows who they are.
Mr. Pool. You are saying, under oath, you did not know any of
them on that degree team ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir ; I didn't meet any of them.
Mr. Pool. I am asking you if you knew any of them.
Mr. Morris. No, sir; I didn't know them.
Mr. Pool. You didn't know them by name.
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know their identity now ?
Mr. Morris. I believe two or three of them.
Mr. Pool. Let us have the names.
Mr. Morris. Well, let's see. I believe that there was a Mr. McGriff.
Mr. Pool. Who?
Mr. Morris. Mr. McGriff.
Mr. Pool. What is his first name ?
Mr. Morris. I don't know.
Mr. Pool. Where did he live?
Mr. Morris. Somewhere in Georgia.
Mr. Pool. l^Hio is another one ?
Mr. Morris. I can't think of his name.
Mr. Manuel. Was Mr. Earl Holcombe a member of that degree
team?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. And Mr. Ray McGriff ?
Mr. Morris. I don't know about Mr. McGriff.
Mr. Manuel. Were there any other members of the degree team?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3509
Mr. Morris. Those are the only two I have seen since that time to
know who they were.
Mr. Pool. They were part of the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan, Incorporated ?
Mr. Morris. They came up with Mr. Venable ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. You said all of the people who submitted applica-
tions were initiated into the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and then
you said Mr. Venable, who is the Imperial Wizard of the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, brought his own degree team up to
initiate members.
Now, would you please explain to the committee, in light of those
two facts that you have testified to, how this is possible ?
Mr. Morris. The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan used the same basic ritual in K-UNO
which Colonel Simmons produced in 1916, so the ritualism is the same
and the oath is the same.
The only thing that you would do would be, in giving a person the
oath, they would swear their allegiance and take their vows in the name
of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan instead of the National Knights.
There is nothing confusing about that.
Mr. Manuel. Then Mr. Venable used persons who were National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan to initiate members into the Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan ; is that right ?
Mr. Morris. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Did you know at that time that Mr. Holcombe and
Mr. McGriff were members of the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan?
Mr. Morris. No, sir. I knew that Mr. Venable wouldn't bring up
there anybody who was not a member.
Mr. Manuel. In other words, to serve on the degree team, you
would have to be a member of the National Knights ?
Mr. Morris. You would have to be a member of the same Klan ; yes,
sir.
Mr. Manuel. Other than being a member of the degree team, to
your knowledge, did Mv. McGriff or Mr. Holcombe hold any other
title in the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr, Morris. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Pool. The committee will stand in recess until 4 o'clock this
afternoon. The witness will return. You are not excused.
(Members present at time of recess: Representatives Pool and
Clawson.)
(Whereupon, at 11 :45 a.m., Monday, February 14, 1966, the sub-
committee recessed, to reconvene at 4 p.m. the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— MONDAY, FEBRUARY 14, 1966
(The subcommittee reconvened at 4 p.m., Hon. Joe R. Pool, chair-
man of the subcommittee, presiding.)
(Subcommittee members present: Representatives Pool and Claw-
son.)
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Manuel. Will Mr. William Hugh Morris resume the stand
please ?
59-222 O— 67-^pt. 5 3
3510 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM HUGH MORRIS— Resumed
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, would you please tell the committee
when the organization, Kniohts of tlie Ku Klux Klan, of which you
are the Emperor, was established ?
Mr. Morris. Sometime in the early spring, I believe, of 1965.
Mr. Manuel. Would that have been, sir, in the month of April
1965 ?
Mr. Morris. It could have been.
Mr. Manuel. Where was the organization established, at what
place?
Mr. Morris. Our first meeting w^as at Tucker, Georgia.
Mr. Manuel. Could you tell the committee who was present at
the organizing meeting of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. No.
Mr. Manuel. You say "no." What is the basis for your answer
of "no"?
Mr. Morris. There was never any acts of lawlessness or violence
or plans discussed. Nobody's civil rights.
Mr. Pool. He asked you a question and he asked you why you do
not answer.
Do you want to plead one of your amendments ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. Plead it.
Mr. Morris. The 1st, 5th, and 14th.
Mr. Pool. Did you say the fifth ?
Mr. Morris. Yes; 1st, 5th, and 14th.
Mr. Pool. On the self-incrimination part of the fifth?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Up until April of 1965 when the Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan was organized, were you a member of the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. Sometime prior to that; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. When exactly did you leave membership of the Na-
tional Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. When the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan was formed
and I was elected Emperor.
Mr. Manuel. That would have been April of 1965.
Mr. Morris. Somewhere around there; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee why you were no
longer a member of the National Knights ? Why did you leave the
organization ?
Mr. Morris. No particular reason. What time and thoughts I had,
I felt I could better devote to the other one.
Mr. Manuel. Up until April of 1965, was the National Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan also considered a national association of Klan
groups ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir ; not to my knowledge ; no, sir.
Mr. Manuel. In April of 1965, was there a national association of
Klan groups?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Under what name did it go, specifically ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3511
Mr. Morris. I believe — I am not certain — but I believe it was the
National Association of Ku Klux Klans.^ I am not sure. I am not
positive.
Mr. Manuel. Was the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
under the leadership of Mr, James Venable, a member of that asso-
ciation ?
Mr. Morris. I think so ; yes, sir. I would say so ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you name the other Klan groups which com-
prise membership in the association ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir ; I can't.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please explain why you can't.
Mr. Morris. I don't know for certain what groups belong to it and
what groups didn't actually belong to it. I attended some of the meet-
ings and some of the informal meetings, but at different times, and
there were different groups represented. Mr. Venable would be in a
much better position to answer that than I would, because he is the
chairman of that particular group.
Mr. Manuel. With whom did you attend the meetings of this asso-
ciation ?
Mr. Morris. At the times I was there, there was pretty good repre-
sentation of different groups there. So far as the individuals are con-
cerned, I couldn't, with any degree of accuracy, name them.
Mr. Pool. Name some of them then.
Mr. Morris. Well, I attended some meetings where Mr. Maddox
was in attendance.
Mr. Pool. Which Mr. Maddox is that ?
Mr. Morris. I believe he lives down around Savannah, and Mr.
Shearouse.
Mr. Manuel. Wliat organizations did Mr. Shearouse and Mr. Mad-
dox represent ?
Mr. Morris. I think they called themselves members of the Georgia
Klan.
Mr. Manuel. What other organizations were represented?
Mr. Morris. I believe at one meeting I was attending, I believe
there was a group from Florida represented.
Mr. Manuel. Is that the United Florida Klan ?
Mr. Morris. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Pool. Name the leader of that group.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Kersey.
Mr. Manuel. Is that Jason Kersey ?
Mr. Morris. I don't know his initials.
Mr. Pool. Wliat other groups did you see there ? Name some more.
Mr. Manuel. Was the Association of South Carolina Klans repre-
sented ?
Mr. Morris. I don't recall, possibly ones believe
Mr. Pool. Who were they led by ?
Mr. Morris. I believe Mr. Hodges was.
Mr. Manuel. What is his full name? Is his first name Kobert
Hodges ?
Mr. Morris. I think so ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Aubrey Bolen and Mr. Cecil Mims also
represent the Association of South Carolina Klans ?
1 National Association, Knights of the Ku Klux Klans. See chart p. 1544.
3512 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Morris. I don't know those.
Mr. Manuel. Was the Dixie Klan from Chattanooga, Tennessee,
represented in the association ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Who was their representative, Mr. Morris ?
Mr. Morris. Mr. Brown. There were two of them. I don't know
their initials or names.
Mr. Manuel. Does the name Jack Brown ring a bell ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir ; I believe that is right.
Mr. Manuel. Was the U.S. Klans, Knight of the Kii Kliix Klan,
represented in the association ?
Mr. Morris. I don't recall attending any meeting at the U.S. Klans.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, was the U.S. Klans a member
of the association of Klans ?
Mr. Morris. I do not know.
Mr. Manuel. Did the Original Knights of Louisiana have represen-
tatives on the association ?
Mr. Morris. I do not know.
Mr. Manuel. Did the Improved Order of U.S. Klans have repre-
sentatives on the association ?
Mr. Morris. I have seen Mr. George at some of the meetings. I
don't know whether he came as an official representative or not.
Mr. Manuel. What is Mr. George's full name, Mr. Morris ? Is his
name Earl George ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Is Mr. George the Imperial Wizard of an organiza-
tion known as the Improved Order of U.S. Klans ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir ; he is.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, you testified this morning that currently
and as of April 1965, there is a 12-member Imperial Kloncilium of the
organization of which you are the Emperor, namely, the Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan.
Is this Kloncilium made up of members of that association which
you have just described ?
Mr. Morris. Not necessarily ; no, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you describe exactly the makeup of it, ex-
actly ?
Mr. Morris. It is composed of men from several States.
Mr. Manuel. Which States, Mr. Morris ?
Mr. Morris. Florida, Georgia, and South Carolina.
Mr. Manuel. You say it is made up of men from several States;
namely, Georgia, Florida, and South Carolina. Are the members of
the Imperial Kloncilium of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan also
representatives of other Klan groups in those States?
Mr. Morris. Not necessarily ; no, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please state who is and who is not?
Mr. Morris. Who is a representative and who is not ?
Mr. Manuel. Who is a member of the Imperial Kloncilium who
is not a member of a Klan organization within the States you have de-
scribed— South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida.
Mr. Morris. No, sir ; I can't
Mr. Pool. I don't know whether he understands the question. Do
you understand the question ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3513
Mr. Morris. I am not sure I do.
Mr. Manuel. Do you currently have a member on the Imperial
Kloncilium of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan who is also a member
of the Association of South Carolina Klans ?
Mr. Morris. I think so ; yes, sir.
Mr. Maxuel. Who is that individual ?
Mr. Morris. I can't tell you.
Mr. Manuel. On what basis do you refuse to answer?
Mr. Morris. On the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 14th amendments.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have a member on the Imperial Kloncilium
of the United Ku Klux Klan who is also a member of the United
Florida Klan ?
Mr. Morris. I don't know what o:roup they go by. There are two
or three groups in Florida. I don't know what the official name
of this individual group is.
Mr. Manuel. Is this individual a member of a Klan in Florida?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Who is that individual ?
Mr. Morris. I cannot tell you.
Mr. Manuel. On what basis ?
Mr. Morris. On the basis of the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 14th amendments.
Mr. Pool. You are not objecting on the grounds of your Klan oath?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir ; on my honor and on my oath I have sworn
on the Christian Bible that I would not reveal it.
Mr. Pool. And you are invoking the fifth amendment because that
would not do you any good ?
Mr. Morris. You said that ; I didn't.
Mr. Pool. Well, I am asking you.
Mr. Morris. I am invoking the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 14th amendments
to the Constitution.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have a member on the Imperial Kloncilium of
the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan who is also a member of the Geor-
gia Association of Klans ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have a member on the Imperial Kloncilium
who is a member of the U.S. Klans, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have a member on the Imperial Kloncilium
who is a member of the Improved Order of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have a member who is also a member of the
United Klans of America who is also on the Imperial Kloncilium ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, at that point I would like to ask you
has the association of Klans, as you describe it, ever had a member
from the United Klans of America?
Mr. Morris. I do not recall them, sir, having one.
Mr. Pool. Well, did they, or didn't they ?
Mr. Morris. I Avouldn't be in a position to know.
Mr. Pool. Then say you don't know.
Mr. Morris. I don't know.
3514 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, have the United Klans of Amer-
ica been invited to participate in the activities of the National Knights
oftheKuKluxKlan?
Mr. Morris. I don't know.
Mr, Pool. You are under oath, so when you make a statement like
that you know Avhat you are sayng ?
Mr, Morris. I know, but I don't have no way of knowing,
Mr. Manuel. Could you tell the committee why it is that the United
Klans of America does not have a representative on the National Asso-
ciation of Ku Klux Klans ?
Mr. Morris. I do not know that answer either.
Mr, Manuel. Have you ever discussed membership in the associa-
tion by the United Klans of America with Mr. James R. Venable ?
Mr. Morris. I don't remember having done so.
Mr. Pool. Did you, or didn't you ?
Mr, Morris. Sir ?
Mr. Pool. Did you, or did you not ?
Mr. Morris. I don't remember. It is possible that I have, but I
don't remember it at this time. I am trying to be honest.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, is it a fact that the Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan, of which you are the Emperor, is the organization which
now represents what was formly the National Association of Ku Klux
Klans?
Mr, Morris. No, sir ; not in any sense.
Mr. Manuel. Is the National Association of Ku Klux Klans still
in existence ?
Mr, Morris. So far as I know. I haven't heard of it being dis-
banded.
Mr, Manuel, Is the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, of which you
are the Emperor, a member of that association?
Mr. Morris. No, sir; it is not,
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris would you please restate the date at
which you ceased membership in the National Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan?
Mr, Morris. I don't remember the date. It was sometime last year,
about the time that we formed the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Were you a member of the National Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan in July of 1965?
Mr. Morris, I don't know. It was sometime last year that I
resigned.
Mr. Manuel. You previously stated that, at a meeting held in
April of 1965 or thereabouts, the organization, the Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan, was formed and you left the National — membership of
the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ; is that right ?
Mr. Morris. Sometime after the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
was formed, the specific date I do not remember.
Mr. Manuel. After the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan was formed,
did you continue to serve as an officer of the National Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. I only served as an officer of the National Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan at two executive meetings. The dates of those
meetings I do not remember.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3515
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, I would like to show you a copy of an
application for the certification of authority of a foreio;n corporation,
namely, the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc., organized
and existing under the laws of the State of Georgia to do business in
the State of North Carolina.
This document is dated July 27, 1965, and on the second page thereof
it lists the following individuals : James R. Venable, president, chair-
man (Imperial Wizard) ; William Hugh Morris, vice president. Box
415, Buchanan, Georgia; H. G. Hill, Sr., 2d vice president (kludd),
and Mrs. Sara Langley, secretary-treasurer.
I show you this document, Mr. Morris, and ask you to advise the
committee as to whether you are the William Hugh Morris so named
in that document?
Mr. Morris. This is my name and this is my address, but I have
no knowledge of this.
(Document marked "William Morris Exhibit No. 4" and retained
in committee files.)
Mr. Pool. I did not get your answer.
Mr. Morris. That is my name and that is my address, but I have
no knowledge of that document.
Mr. Manuel. Was this document filed with the secretary of state
of the State of North Carolina without your knowledge and consent?
Mr. Morris. It was without my knowledge.
Mr. Manuel. At the date indicated, July 27, 1965, were you the
vice president of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. I don't remember whether it was at that time or some
time later that I officially resigned.
Mr. Manuel. Did you officially resign ?
Mr. Morris. Verbally, I officially resigned.
Mr. Manuel. To whom did you offer your resignation ?
Mr. Morris. To Mr. Venable.
Mr. Pool. Was this document filed with the State of North Caro-
lina without your consent?
Mr. Morris. I had no knowledge of it. I couldn't approve it or
disapprove it, sir.
Mr. Pool. This document was filed with the State of North Caro-
lina. Now that being the case, did you give your consent for this
being filed in the State of North Carolina ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir ; I did not give my consent.
Mr. Pool. You did not give your consent. Is that your answer ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir ; that is my answer.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, under the laws, whatever they are, of the
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, of which you are the Emperor, does
Mr. James R. Venable have the authority to appoint imperial officers?
Mr. Morris. Not in the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. He does
in the National Knights.
Mr. Manuel. I would like to show you, Mr. Morris, the original
of a document on the letterhead of the National Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan, Inc., dated 6 April 1965, signed James R. Venable, Im-
perial Wizard, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
The document is embossed with a gold seal which says "National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan" and the letter reads as follows :
3516
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
To Whom it May Concern :
This is to certify that Mr. Walter N. Huff is an Imperial Officer in the Knights
of the Ku Khix Klan for the State of Ohio and as such has a right to solicit mem-
bership, create Klavern, do ritualistic work and any and all other things and
matters concerning the Klan for the State of Ohio.
Given under my hand and official seal this 6th day of April, 1965.
Signed by James R. Venable.
Mr. Morris, would you explain to the committee after you have
read that document how Mr. Venable could appoint an imperial of-
ficer in the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. I have no explanation.
(Document marked "William Morris Exhibit No. 5" follows:)
William Morris Exhibit No. 5
'The Most Sublime Lineage in AH History
Commemorating and Perpetuating as it Does
the Most Dauntless Organization Known to Man"
NATIONAL KNIGHTS OF
THE KU KLUX KLAN, INC.
Imperial Office
Invisible Empire
Tucker, Georgia
To Whom it May Concern:
ThlB la to certify that Mr. Walter H. Huff la an Imperial
Officer in the Knlghta of the Ku Klux Klan for the State
of Ohio and aa auch haa a right to aollclt neraberablp,
create Klavern, do rltuallatlc work end any and all other
thlnga and mattera concerning the Klan for the State of
Ohio.
GlTen under my hand and off Iclal/ aeal thla 6th day of April, 1965.
;
lies H. vena Die "
[m|>erlal Wizard
'Knlghta of the Ku Klux Klan
Mr. Manuel. Does Mr. Venable have the authority to sigri "Im-
perial Wizard, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan"? Does he, in fact,
have that title within your organization ?
Mr. Morris. We have no Imperial Wizard.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge, is Mr. Walter N. Huff
of the State of Ohio an imperial officer in your organization, the
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3517
Mr. Morris. No, sir; he is not.
Mr. Pool. "Was this letter mailed?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir.
Did Mr. Venable at any time prior to the 6th day of April 1965
discuss with you the appointment of Walter N. Huff as an imperial
officer in the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. Xot in tlie Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. I talked
to him sometime about the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan,
but not the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge, is Mr. Walter Huff an
officer of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. I do not know, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, earlier this morning we got in a little
bit as to the results of the Klan rallies which were held in the State
of Ohio. I asked you at that time, to your best knowledge, how
many members of the Ku Klux Klan were recruited from the State
of Ohio as the result of the rally held at Parkie Scott's farm on
May 28 and 29, 1965.
I would like to ask you that question again and have your answer
for the record, sir.
Mr. Morris. I don't know exactly. I would say there was some-
thing over 100 that paid, and the total that signed applications was
between 250 and 300, I believe, but they were not inducted and did
not pay their entrance fee.
Mr. Manuel. As far as that particular rally was concerned, to
your certain knowledge, how much money was taken in by the
Klan?
Mr. Morris. In the neighborhood of $1,500. I couldn't say just
exactly.
Mr. Manuel. The Klan on August 19, 20, and 21, either the Na-
tional Knights or the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, or both, held a
rally at Brunswick, Ohio.
Would you please tell the committee, to your certain knowledge,
how many persons were inducted or initiated into membership into
the Klan as the result of that rally ?
Mr. Morris. I do not know.
Mr. Manuel. Approximately how many ?
Mr. Morris. I haven't any "idea. I didn't have access to any of
those records.
Mr. Manuel. Did you yourself initiate persons into the Klan as
the result of that rally ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have any idea of how much money was
taken in by the Klan ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Similarly, the Klan had a rally at Lodi near Cleve-
land on September 18 and 19 of 1965.
Could you tell the committee how many members were initiated
into the Klan as the result of that rally?
Mr. Morris. No, sir; I have no knowledge of that.
Mr. Manuel. How nuich money was taken in by the Klan?
Mr. Morris. The records were not available to me, and I do not
know.
3518 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. Were application blanks distributed at the rallies
at Brunswick and Lodi ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mantlh:!.. Would you tell the committee wliat happened to
those application blanks?
Mr. Morris. No, sir; I don't know how many were signed and how-
many were not, how many paid and how many didn't. I don't
know.
Mr. Manuel. Did you receive into membership some individuals
as the result of those two rallies, any number at all ?
Mr. Morris. So far as I know, none of those members came into
the Kniglits of tlie Ku Klux Klan. They possibly came into the
National Knights.
Mr. Manuel. So, as I understand your testimony, the only per-
sons w^ho came into membership of the Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan were as the result of Parkie Scott's rally, the rally held on
Parkie Scott's fann in May of 196.5 ?
Mr. Morris. That is all I have any records of.
Mr. Manuel. Where in Ohio does the Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan have units or Klaverns set up ?
Mr. Morris. As I told you this morning, we have no charter plans
in existence anywhere.
Mr. Manuel. AVliat happened to the 100 or 150 people, whatever
the case may be, wlio signed up and became members of the Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan in Ohio ?
Mr. Morris. I think Mr. Harris or Mr. Stephens would be in far
better position to answer that question than I am.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, what is your answer to that
question ?
Mr. Morris. They may be meeting mider the National Kniglits of
the Ku Klux Klan and they may be chartered under the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. I do not know.
Mr. Manitel. But you said they were members of the Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan. They were inducted into membership into
the Knights?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Does the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
and the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan interchange membership, at
least insofar as the State of Ohio is concerned ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir; not so far as I know.
Mr. Manuel. Do they in any case ?
Mr. Morris. I have no direct knowledge of it.
Mr. Manuel. Is a person initiated in the Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan also a member of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. No, sir; but if he desires to transfer, he would be free
to do so.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, does the National Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan have any organized Klaverns in the city of
Cleveland?
Mr. Morris. Not beinj? a member of that organization, I have no
knowledge of where their Klans are located.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever discussed this aspect of Klan activity
withMr. Venable?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3519
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Who are the present officers of the Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan in the State of Ohio ?
Mr. Morris. We have one officer there now, as of today.
Mr. Manuel. Wlio is that individual, Mr. Morris ?
Mr. Morris. Mr. Harris, of Cincinnati. Excuse me, and Mr. Lewis,
of Akron.
Mr. Manuel. Is Mr. Parkie Scott an officer in your organization?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. What position does Mr. Harris hold in the KJnights of
the Ku Klux Klan for the Realm of Ohio ?
Mr. Morris. He is a great titan.
Mr. Manuel. When was Mr. Harris appointed to that position ?
Mr. Morris. Either last September or October.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, do you have any knowledge that Mr.
Harris specifically on September 26, 1965, met in Zanesville, Ohio, with
representatives of the United Klans of America, including Eobert
Shelton, for the purpose of transferring membership from your orga-
nization to the United Klans of America ?
Mr. Morris. I have no direct Imowledge of that. I had a rumor of
it.
Mr. Manuel. Would you, please, inform the committee what your
knowledge is in that regard ?
Mr. Morris. No more than a rumor. I don't have any direct knowl-
edge that he did or didn't.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know that such a meeting was held ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir ; I do not.
Mr. Manuel. If such a meeting was held, Mr. Morris, and Mr.
Harris was in attendance, would it have been necessary for him as the
Grand Dragon or the great titan for the Realm of Ohio to have gotten
your permission before meeting with an officer of another Klan group?
Mr. Morris. It would not have been necessary for him to get my
permission to do so ; no, sir. This is a free country, and he can engage
in any activity he wants to.
Mr. Manuel. Can a person hold simultaneous membership in the
JNational Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and the United Klans of
America ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Why not?
Mr. Morris. He couldn't swear unqualified allegiance to both.
Mr. Manuel. As I understand your testimony, you said it was
possible for a person to be a member of the Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan and also to be a member of the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan. Why is it a different situation-
Mr. Morris. I think you are trying to twist-
Mr. Manuel. Not at all ; I am trying to unravel the situation.
Mr. Morris. I said that he could transfer if he wanted to from
the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan to the National Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan. That would be — he could be — certainly if a member
of our organization desired to affiliate with another organization, I
would not be selfish enough to try to hold him in any group that I
represented.
3520 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
The proper procedure would be for liim to request that.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, do you have knowledge of an organiza-
tion which is known as the Black Shirts?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever heard the name "Black Shirts" men-
tioned ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir, I read it in the paper.
Mr. Manuel. When was the first time you heard of that organiza-
tion?
Mr. Morris. Actually way back in the twenties there used to be an
order known as the Black Shirts here in this country.
Mr. Manuel. Since April of 1964 have you discussed an organiza-
tion known as the Black Shirts with Mr. James Venable ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have knowledge of the existence of a group
operating in the State of Georgia called the Vigilantes ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. While you were a member of the National Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan, was Mr. Earl Holcombe a member of the National
Knights ?
Mr. Morris. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Manuel. Did you subseouently know him to be a member of
the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. No. sir. I don't know what Klan affiliation he had.
Mr. Manltel. This morning you testified that Mr. Holcombe has
accompanied Mr. Venable to the State of Ohio as a member of his
degree team. You did testify to that ; is that not correct ?
Mr. Morris. As a member of a degree team ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Of what Klan group did he act as a member of the
decree team?
Mr. Morris. I don't know what group he belongs to. I just do not
know.
Mr. Manuel. What about Mr. Ray McGriff. Did you know him to
be a member of a degree team of the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan?
Mr. Morris. No, sir. I don't know if he is a member of the degree
team of the National Ku Klux Klan or not.
Mr. Manuel. Have you been i^resent when Mr. McGriff and Mr.
Holcombe have initiated members into the National Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan in the State of Ohio?
Mr. Pool. What was your question, Mr. Manuel ?
Mr. Manuel. The reporter can read it back.
(The question was read bv the reporter.)
Mr. Pool. I think he testified to that this morning. Is that correct ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manltel. Mr. Morris, were you present at a meetin<^ of the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in Columbus, Ohio, on or
about the 10th day of October 1964, and tliat meeting was held at the
Airway Lodge at 4800 East 17th Street, in Columbus, from the hours
of approximately 3:80 p.m. to 7 p.m.?
Mr. Morris. I attended a meeting at this airport inn, but as to the
date I am not
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3521
Mr. Manuel. Was it in the fall of 1964?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir, I think so. It was getting cool weather,
Mr. Manuel. What was the purpose of that particular meeting in
Columbus, Ohio, Mr. Morris?
Mr. Morris. There had been quite a bit of dissension between the
group in Columbus and the group in Cincinnati, and I came up here
more or less as an ambassador to see if I could get the dissension
straightened out.
Mr. Manuel. Was Mr. Flynn Harvey present at that meeting, Mr.
Morris ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Was Mr. Flynn Harvey at that time the Grand
Dragon for the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in the State
of Ohio?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Flynn Harvey subsequently leave that office ?
Mr. Morris. Sometime later, yes, sir; or I understood he did.
Mr. Manuel. For Avhat reason did Mr. Harvey leave that office ?
Mr. Morris. I don't know.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge, were charges ever brought
against Mr. Harvey by members of the Columbus Klavern of the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. No, sir, I have no knowledge of that.
Mr. Manuel. Was Mr. Robert Leavey of Columbus, Ohio, present
at the meeting at the Airway Lodge ?
Mr. Morris. I believe so.
Mr. Manuel. Did you know Mr. Leavey to be the exalted cyclops
of the Columbus Klaveni of the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan?
Mr. Morris. I did not know.
Mr. Manuel. Did you know he held an officers' position in that
Klan?
Mr. Morris. This was a rather informal meeting, and I didn't know
who the officers were.
Mr. Manuel. I am sorry, I didn't hear you.
Mr. Morris. This w^as an inf onnal meeting, and no offices were filled,
so therefore I don't know who the officers w'ere.
Mr. Manuel. Is it your testimony that there were no officers elected
or appointed prior to that meeting?
Mr. Morris. I don't know whether they were or not. I didn't ap-
point any.
Mr. Manuel. Was Mr. William K. Smith at that meeting?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir, I believe so.
Mr. Manuel. Did you know Mr. William K. Smith to be a member
of the Columbus Klavern of the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan?
Mr. Morris. I assumed him to be a member; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you know Mr. William K. Smith to be an officer
of that Klavern?
Mr. Morris. I didn't know.
Mr. Manuel. Was Mr. Chuck Gilliam present at that meeting?
Mr. Morris. I believe he was.
3522 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. Did you knoAv Mr. Gilliam at that time to be a mem-
ber of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Is it not a fact, Mr. Morris, that Verlin Gilliam was
initiated into the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan at a rally
held in Stone Mountain, Georgia, over the Labor Day weekend in
September of 1964?
Mr. Morris. I wasn't at that rally and I don't know.
Mr. Manuel. Was any pei*son present at the meeting at the Airway
Lodge who was not a member of the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan, to your knowledge?
Mr. Morris. No, sir, I don't think so.
Mr. Manltel. That being the case, then Mr. Gilliam must have been
a member of the National Knights at that time.
Mr. Morris. He must have been.
Mr. Manuel. Was Mrs. Eloise Witte at that meeting?
Mr. Morris. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Was she known by you at that time to be a member
of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. At that time, did she have any title wathin the Na-
tional Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. I understood her to be head of the women's group.
Mr. Manuel. Was Mr. Barney Ross present at that meeting, Barney
Ross of Covington, Kentucky.
Mr. Morris. I am not sure. I don't recall him being there.
Mr. Manuel. At that time, did you know Barney Ross to be a mem-
ber of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Was Mr. Curtis Rose present at that meeting?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Was he, at that time, a member of the National
Knights ?
Mr. Morris. So far as I know, he was.
Mr. Manuel. Was Mr. McKinley Mink of Cincinnnati, Ohio, pres-
ent at that meeting ?
Mr. Morris. I don't remember if he was there or not.
Mr. Manuel. Did you know McKinley Mink, at that time, to be a
member of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Have you known since that time that Mr. Mink was
a member of the National Knights?
Mr. Morris. I assumed him to be. Not having seen his application,
I don't know. I suppose so.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, to your certain knowledge, is Mr. Wil-
liam K. Smith currently a member of the Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Is he a member of any Klan at all ?
Mr. Morris. Not to my knowledge. I think he resigned some time
back.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge is Mr. Verlin Gilliam a
member of the Kniffhts of the Ku Klux Klan ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3523
Mr. Morris. Not of the Knights ; no, sir.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge is Mrs. Eloise Witte a
member of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. Manuel. Is Mrs. Witte eligible for membership in your organi-
zation ?
Mr. Morris. I suppose she would be ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Has Mrs. Witte ever made application to the Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan for membership ?
Mr. Morris. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge, is Mrs. Witte a member
of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan at this time ?
Mr. Morris. I do not know, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know of any resignation eifected by Mrs.
Witte regarding her membership in the National Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, concerning the organization which you
testified about this morning, namely, the Federated Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan of Alabama, was that organization the subject of a
grand jury inquiry in the year 1949 by a grand jury in the State of
Alabama ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did that grand jury inquire into the activities of
the Federated Knights of the Ku Klux Klan with respect to alleged
acts of terriorism, flogging, and burning on the part of members of
that organization?
Mr. Morris. Some flogging incidents were investigated. That is
all I remember.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge, were members of the Fed-
erated Klans involved in acts of terriorism or flogging in the State of
Alabama in the year 1949 or any time prior thereto?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. They were not ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, as the result of your appearance before
the grand jury in 1949 in Alabama, were you sentenced to a jail term
for contempt of that court ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please tell the committee why this came
about?
Mr. Morris. They asked me for the membership list and the attor-
ney general had made the statement that he intended to indict not
only the Klan, but every Klansman in the State of Alabama. I told
the attorney general that I would help him investigate and help him
convict if any were guilty if he would let me know who he suspected of
being guilty. He refused to do that and asked for the names of every
member in the State of Alabama, which I could not in good conscience
give him.
Mr. Manuel. Was that because of an oath that you took of the
Federated Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
3524 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, have you held membership in an organi-
zation in the State of Alabama known as the Caucasians ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir. Caucasians? I don't remember any organi-
zation like that being in existence.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge, do you possess any infor-
mation regarding acts of violence on the part of members of the Na-
tional Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever seen or heard of the existence or the
possession of dynamite by members of the National Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Morris. I read in the paper that some was discovered in Colum-
bus ; that is all I can remember.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have any knowledge of how the dynamite
got to Columbus ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir ; I certainly do not.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have any knowledge of a quantity of dyna-
mite and arms which is being stored in the area of Barnesville,
Georgia ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Morris, could you tell the committee the number
of members which you have now in the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir. It is very, very small. We are actually not
ready to launch the organization as yet.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Clawson ?
Mr. Clawson. I would like to ask one question, Mr. Morris.
You indicated that you may have some record or correspondence
this morning appointing men to positions in the Klan. You said it
might not be a copy of a letter, but an entry of some kind. Did you
keep a diary or journal of some kind ?
Mr. Morris. No, sir; I do not. The organization is not completed
as yet. There must be 16 members of the kloncilium, and it has not
reached that point yet, so therefore actually it is still more or less a
paper organization. We hope to project it.
Mr. Clawson. What is the nature of the appointments you liave
and what are the records you have in mind ?
Mr. Morris. I am not certain, but I might have a copy of the cre-
dentials that I sent these people, and I may not. I don't remember
whether I do or not.
Mr. Clawson. If you find that, this would be included with the otlier
correspondence and other papers and records you are going to give to
the committee under subpena ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Morris, your subpena will be continued to March 1.
I believe you promised to submit to the staif these records, memoranda,
and other papers that you have in your possession. After the staff
receives them and looks them over, we will advise you whether we want
to question you any further, but you are still under subpena until
March 1.
Mr. Morris. Do you want me to mail tliese to you by registered
letter?
Mr. Pool. That is riffht.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3525
Mr. Morris. All right, sir; and you will notify me if you want me
further ?
Mr. Pool. And I do advise you to do it as swiftly as you can.
Mr. Morris. You will get it within a week or 10 days. Is that
all right?
Mr. Pool. Your subpena is continued to March 1, so you can decide
that, but we want to look them over to decide whether we want to
question you further. We will advise you after we look over the
records.
The committee will stand in recess for 4 minutes.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Manuel, will you call your next witness?
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, the staft' would like to call at this
time Mrs. Eloise Witte.
Mr. Pool. Raise your right hand, please.
Do you swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. WiTTE. No, sir. But I shall affirm it.
Mr. Pool. Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mrs. WiTTE. Yes, sir, I do.
Mr. Pool. So affirmed.
TESTIMONY OF ELOISE WITTE
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, would you please state your full name
for the record. Ma'am ?
Mrs. Witte. Eloise Witte.
Mr. Manuel. Where do you currently reside ?
Mr. Pool. Question her about an attorney first.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, are you represented by counsel?
Mrs. Witte. No, but counsel is available if I need one.
Mr. Manuel. At this time, do you desire to have counsel by your
side?
Mrs. Witte. No.
Mr. Manuel. Have you conferred with counsel prior to your ap-
pearance before the committee ?
Mrs. Witte. I have talked with many lawyers, not necessarily about
what you might ask me, but I am well aware of what my rights are.
Mr. Manuel. You are well aware, as your last statement indicated,
that you have available to you certain constitutional privileges which
guarantee you the right not to testify in a matter in which you think
you might be criminally implicated ?
Mrs. Witte. I am aware of that ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. You are also aware that you can ask for counsel at
any time ?
Mrs. Witte. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Have you been provided with a copy of the chair-
man's opening statement w^hich he made in October of 1965, prior to
the opening of the hearings into the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mrs. Witte. One was given me this morning.
59-222 O— 67^pt. 5-
3526 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. Have you read that document, Mrs. Witte, and are
you familiar with its contents ?
Mrs. Witte. Yes, I am.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, would you please tell the committee when
and where you were born ?
Mrs. Witte. Marion, North Carolina, August 2, 1925.
Mr. Manuel. Where do you currently reside ?
Mrs. Witte. 1654 Otte Avenue, Cincinnati.
Mr. MiVNUEL. Mrs. Witte, what is your current occupation ?
Mrs. Witte. Housewife.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever held membership in any Ku Klux Klan
organization ?
Mrs. Witte. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please tell the committee what was the
first such organization in which you held membership ?
Mrs. Witte. National Knights.
Mr. Manuel. When did you join the National Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan?
Mrs. Witte. I refuse to answer that under my rights of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. INLvNUEL. Under what circumstances did you join the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mrs. Witte. I shall refuse to answer that under the same gromids.
Mr. Manuel. During what period did you hold membership in the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Ms. Witte. I shall refuse to answer that.
Mr. Manuel. Are you currently a member of the National Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mrs. Witte. I am.
Mr. Manuel. Are you currently a member of any other Klan orga-
nization ?
Mrs. Witte. No other.
Mr. Manuel. Have you made application to join other Ku Klux
Klan organizations ?
Mrs. Witte. No, I haven't.
Mr. Manltel. Specifically, Mrs. Witte, have you filled out an appli-
cation for membership in the United Klans of America?
Mrs. Witte. No, I haven't.
Mr. Manuel. While a member of the National Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan, Mrs. Witte, did you hold any office in that organization ?
Mrs. Witte. Yes; I held the title of Empress of Ohio, and this
commission was given me by Mr. Venable.
Mr. Manuel. Wlien was this commisison conferred upon you, Mrs.
Witte?
Mrs. Witte. About 2 years ago.
Mr. Manuel. Can you give the committee an approximate date of
your commission — Did you say Grand Empress?
Mrs. Witte. Empress.
No, I don't remember the date. I am sorry.
Mr. Manuel. Could you tell the committee briefly what your duties
are as Empress of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mrs. Witte. Well, as the Empress, I am entitled to pass applica-
tions. I have very little to do with the men's applications, but I can
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3527
give applications or advice to them as to where to go and what to do, et
cetera ; I mean as far as the Klan work is concerned, and whom to get in
touch with for counsel. That is, when I say counsel, I mean advice
on Klan activities, et cetera. But most of my work would naturally be
with women. This is an auxiliary to the men's group.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, are you the Empress of the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan on a national basis or solely for the
State of Ohio?
Mrs. Witte. No ; just for the State of Ohio.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, does the National Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan have persons with the title of Empress in the other
States in which they operate ?
Mrs. Witte. I know of no others.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, have you ever disseminated or accepted
applications for membership in any Klan organization other than
the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mrs. Witte. I have only used applications for other groups on one
occasion, and that was at the Parkie Scott's farm over the Labor Day
weekend and that was only after we had run out of all applications
for the other group.
Mr. Manuel. Where did you obtain applications for the other Klan
groups ?
Mrs. Witte. Many Klan groups pass my way. As a matter of
fact, I would suppose within the last 2 years at least 15 Klan groups
have passed through my house. It is like Grand Central Station. Some
of them leave their applications. And, of course, at that time some
of the old Klans people in Ohio had written to many Klan groups
they heard about in the South at one time or another, and I suppose
the old Klans people wanted to revive the Klan in the North. So,
therefore, many of them left applications with me. However, I only
had one book and I can't even remember who left that with me, but
it must have been from years back.
But, nevertheless, it has the same lines on it that any of the other
books would have had, for instance, for references and everything
else would have been the same.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, are you appearing before the committee
this afternoon in response to a subpena which was served to you at
6 :05 p.m. on the 19th day of December 1965 at 1654 Otte Street in
Cincinnati by Deputy Marshal Ernest D'Amico?
Mrs. Witte. That is true, but it is Otte Avenue.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, an attachment, which was made part of
that subpena, called upon you to produce in the first paragraph of that
attachment :
AH books, records, documents, correspondence and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan and/or the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. Inc., in your
possession, custody or control, or maintained by you or available to you as a
present or former member and/or official of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
and/or the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc.
Mrs. Witte, in the representative capacity stated in paragraph 1, I
request that you produce the documents called for in that paragraph.
Mrs. Witte. That was letters ; right ?
Mr. Manuel. And books, records, documents, correspondence, and
memoranda.
3528 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mrs. WiTTE. I only have two letters because most of the correspond-
ence I destroy as soon as it comes my way and I answer it and toss
it out. I only have two letters from Mr. Venable as far as records; I
have never kept any records myself. They go directly to Mr. Morris.
These are the only letters in my possession.
Mr. Manuel. In view of paragraph 2 of the subpena, which I shall
read :
All memoranda and correspondence between or hy yourself and .Tames R.
Venable and/or William Hugh Morris, the same being officials of the Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan and the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc.
It seems that you have answered to the second paragraph of that
subpena. Do you have in your possession any books, records, docu-
ments, or memoranda other than you have presented today?
Mrs. WiTTE. No ; I do not.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever had any such documents?
Mrs. WiTTE. Yes, I have ; but as I told you, most of our business was
on the telephone or in person, certainly nothing discrimintory ever
came my way, but it is just a habit of mine to destroy correspondence.
Mr. Manuel. Other than Mr. Venable, have you had contact with
any other officials of any other Klan organization?
Mrs. WiTTE. Some have called me on the phone.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please tell the committee who they are
and what position they hold in their respective Klan organizations?
Mrs. WiTTE. No, sir. I refuse to answer that — my rights under the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Pool. Have you destroyed any correspondence since being
served with the subpena ?
Mrs. WiTTE. No, sir; I have not. I destroyed it well before the
subpena.
Mr. Pool. Have you destroyed any other documents called for in
the subpena since being served with the subpena ?
Mrs. WiTTE. No, sir; I have not.
Mrs. Clawson. What was the nature of the correspondence you
sent to Mr. Morris?
Mrs. WiTTE. Well, my correspondence with Mr. Morris was — more
than anything else had to do with just the rally to be held and details
to be worked out, business to be conducted there, and the dates he could
be there, et cetera. That is just about the extent of my correspondence
wnth Mr. Morris.
Mr. Cl.uvson. You didn't transmit any applications or anything of
that kind ?
Mrs. WiTTE. Only in person.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, would you please tell the committee if
there are, at this time, any active Klaverns or units of ladies of the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mrs. Witte. I shall invoke my rights under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Pool. You invoke the fifth amendment ?
Mrs. Witte. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, would you please inform tlie committee
what role, if any, you had in organizing the rally which was held
at Parkie Scott's farm on May 28 and 29 of last year?
Mrs. Witte. Yes, sir. As I told you, many people had come my
Avay wanting information as to how to get into the Klan or what
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3529
they could do. They wanted to revive the Klan in Oliio. Mr. Scott
told me his farm was available, and I made the arrangements for
the use of that farm. I gave him $1 for the use of the farm and set
up the rally.
Mr. Manuel. Were you in attendance at that rally ?
Mrs. WiTTE. I sure was.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge, could you inform the
committee of how many members were initiated into the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan as the result of that rally ?
Mrs. "WiTTE. I am not sure of the number. I know as many appli-
cations as we could process between the time of that rally and I
believe June 27 was the date of the first initiation. All of the appli-
cations we could process and get mailed out to these people, we did
that. How many more we couldn't i:)rocess, I don't know. I did not
count them. I haven't the faintest idea. I know two women worked
an entire day getting the applications into alphabetical form, but
these were turned over to Mr. Morris.
Mr. Pool. Who were the two ladies who helped on that?
Mrs. WiTTE. I refuse to answer that — my rights under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Clawson. When was the last time that you submitted, either
in person or by mail, any of the documents or applications or instru-
ments to Mr. Morris? Do you recall the last time?
Mrs. WiTTE. No, sir; I can't remember, but it would have been
about the time of the initiation. I suppose these would have been
the last submitted to Mr. Morris.
Mr. Clawson. That w\as approximately when ?
Mrs. WiTTE. That was approximately the first of July.
Mr. Pool. You admit doing the work yourself, but you say you
won't tell who the two ladies were that helped you and you invoke
the fifth amendment?
Mrs. WiTTE. I said I helped set up the rally. I did not say I was
the only one who did it and I did not say I was the only one who
put the applications into alphabetical order.
Mr. Pool. You did help.
Mrs. WiTTE. Yes.
Mr. Pool. I can't understand why it would incriminate these other
ladies if it does not incriminate you.
Mrs. WiTTE. That is the only way I can see of protecting these
people, just by invoking the fifth amendment. I don't mind being-
identified myself, but as Mr. Morris stated earlier, he took an oath
not to reveal the identity of people who certainly had no part of any
wrongdoing, had broken no laws.
Mr. Pool. Did you take an oath like that?
Mrs. WiTTE. I certainly did.
Mr. Pool. In what organization?
Mrs. WiTTE. The National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Pool. Are you a member of the National Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan?
Mrs. WiTTE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. Not an auxiliary?
Mrs. WiTTE. It is an auxiliary, too. We take the same oath.
3530 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. You take the same oath?
Mrs. WiTTE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. And you are taking the fifth amendment.
Mrs. WiTTE. To protect the identity of other people.
Mr. Pool. Are you taking it to keep from incriminating yourself?
Mrs. WiTTE. I told them I helped to get them into alphabetical
order, but I just take it. I know it looks ridiculous, but if you would
ask me to violate an oath I had taken before, it seems to me this type
of reasoning could be the same type of reasoning that could make me
violate my marriage vow. It makes about that much sense to me.
If they had done anything criminal, I would certainly be the first
to tell you about it.
Mr. Pool. You are going to be the judge and jury of all that?
Mrs. WiTTE. I said I would not reveal their identity. If I have
to do it that way, then that is the way I will do it.
Mr. Pool. You are talking to a committee of Congress trying to
get the facts. You are just up here to answer the questions. If you
want to take the fifth amendment, you can do so.
Mrs. WiTTE. Then I take the fifth amendment.
Mr. Pool. Then I can't understand why you invoke it in the case
of those two ladies, but I wouldn't argue the point.
I would like to clarify for the record though as to whether you are
taking the fifth amendment to protect yourself from incrimination
or in accordance with your oatli that you took. Whicli is predomi-
nant? Which is the reason that you are pleading the fifth amend-
ment right now?
Mrs. WiTTE. The real reason is because of an oath I took not to
reveal the identity of another person.
Mr. Pool. I order and direct you to answer the question.
Mrs. WiTTE. I shall invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Pool. But you just said that the reason is that you are doing
it on account of the oath you took and that is not a valid reason
before this committee.
Mrs. WiTTE. You know very well I have the right to take the fifth
amendment, sir, and I shall.
Mr. Pool. You are really taking the fifth amendment so as not to
incriminate yourself. If that is what you want the record to show,
it
Mrs. WiTTE. Then the record shows I took the fifth amendment.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, in this letter which you have just pro-
vided the committee dated April 7, 1965, addressed to yourself and
signed by Mr. James R. Venable, the last paragi'aph of that letter
reads as follows :
I wrote Brother Huff and I am sure that he will do every thing that he can
to help us to preserve our white race. If there are any two people in Ohio that
can get the K's off up there I am sure they are you and Brother Huff.
Would you please identify for the committee, Mrs. Witte, the
"Brother Huff" referred to in the letter?
Mrs. Witte. Mr. Walter Huff. You asked Mr. Morris about liim a
while ago. He is the same Mr. Huff.
(Document marked "Eloise Witte Exhibit No. 1" follows:)
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
3531
Eloise WiTTE Exhibit No. 1
James R. Venable
ATTORNEY AT UAW
WALTER R. BROWN BUILDING - OPPOSITE COURT HOUSE - ATLANTA 3 OEORQIA
ASSOCIATK
H. O. McBRAYER. JR.
Residence Phong DR 3-2003
Office Phones
MUrry 8-9137
JACKSON 4-4966
Residence Phone
Stone Mountain 469-9786
Tucker. Ga. Office 938-5921
April 7, 1965
Mrs. Eloise Witts
1654 Otte Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio
Dear Mrs. Witte:
I was indeed glad that jou c ailed me concerning the meeting
there. Please get written permission from the owner of the
property to use the premises and paj hin a charge for rental
which can be small, even fl.OO will do.
In the near future I will send jou some money for circulars.
You should try to get this meeting advertised where you can
have a large crowd.
It may be that you can get the boys to get ahold of some old
telephone posts, wrap it with burlap, soak in oil and kerosene
and use as a burning cross.
I believe you said the meetings would be the 29th, 30th, and
31st of Hay so please confirm the dates and I will be there.
The circulars should advertise as "Knights of The Ku Klux Klan"
using the 1| Ks.
I wrote brother Huff and I am sure that he will do every thing
that he can to help us to preserve our white race. If there
are any two people in Ohio that can get the K» a off up there
I am sure they are you and Brother ^ixi
8 very truly,
,1
Venable
Mr. Manuel. Well, do you know him to be an imperial officer of the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan %
Mrs. Witte. I do not know him to be an officer.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know him to be an officer of the Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mrs. Witte. No; I do not.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, you have testified that you have partici-
pated in the prepartion of a Klan rally which was held on the farm
3532 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
of Parkie Scott. Would you please tell the committee for which orga-
nization, the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan or the Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan, you engaged in these activities ?
Mrs. WiTTE. Mr. Venable contacted me and asked me to put out the
circulars under the four Ks. That is the Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Which Klan organization to your knowledge spon-
sored the rally ?
Mrs, WiTTE. The National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in Ohio
had had their charter revoked. So I assumed they were coming in —
I mean just under another name, but still the same people.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know for what reason the National Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan had their charter revoked in the State of Ohio?
Mrs. WiTTE. Because when they applied for a charter it shook the
State to its eye roots.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, did you participate in the organizing of
the Klan rally which was held near Brunswick, Ohio, on August 19,
20, and 21, 1965?
Mrs. Witte. No ; I was in Canada.
Mr. Manuel. Did you participate in the organization of the rally
which was held in Lodi, near Cleveland ?
Mrs. Witte. What was the date ?
Mr. Manuel. September 18, 19, 1965.
Mrs. Witte. No ; I was not.
Mr. Manuel. Were you in attendance at that rally ?
Mrs. Witte. I was not.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever maintained any bank accounts or post
office boxes on behalf of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mrs. Witte. No, sir.
Mr. INIanuel. Have you ever been present at any initiation ceremony
of either the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan or the Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mrs. Witte. Except my own ; no.
Mr. Manuel. When was your own held ?
Mrs. Witte. I refuse to answer that — fifth amendment.
Mr. Manuel. Who administered the oath to you, Mrs. Witte, in
order for you to become a member of the National Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan ?
Mrs. Witte. I also refuse to answer that for the same reason.
Mr. Manuel. Have you attended any meetings or functions of the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan outside of the State of Ohio?
Mrs. Witte. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please tell the committee when you did so ?
Mrs. Witte. No, sir; I refuse to ans^yer that on the ground stated
before.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee where you attended
functions of that organization outside of the State of Ohio.
Mrs. Witte. No ; for the same reason.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever attended rallies at Stone Mountain,
Georgia.
Mrs. Witte. No ; I have not.
Mr, Pool. You said you were a member of an auxiliary, I believe.
Mrs. Witte. Yes.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3533
Mr. Pool. But you are allowed to attend meetings of the Ku Klux
Klan ; is tliat correct ?
]Mrs. WiTTE. Certainly meetings, rallies, things of that sort, yes;
but not their closed meetings.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, are you acquainted with an individual
named Verlin Gilliam ?
Mrs. Witte. No, sir; to my knowledge I never have met the man,
although Mr. Morris told me — after reading in the paper what I did
about liim, I asked Mr. ^Morris if he had been present at any of the
meetings wliere I had been. He told me yes, he has been on occasion
to one meeting or another, and I think it was a rally, but to my knowl-
edge I have never met the individual.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, Mrs. Witte, what active Klans
now exist of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in the State
of Ohio?
Mrs. Witte. Well, since the State of Ohio revoked the charter, I
would say that all of the Klans are just Klans. They don't go under,
I believe, any particular title, national or otherwise. They are just
Klans, Klanspeople.
Mr. MvNUEL. Would you identify, to the best of your knowledge,
the locations of the units which you describe as Klans in the State of
Ohio?
Mrs. Witte. No; of course, a lot of information has come my way,
a lot of people come to my house, and a lot of people do a lot of talk-
ing about what they are doing in particular areas, but not firsthand
knowledge. So I don't know.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee any knowledge you
have in that regard ?
Mrs. Witte. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. On wdiat basis?
Mrs. Witte. Under the fifth amendment.
Mr. M\nuel. To your knowledge, does the National Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan have an active organization in the city of Cleveland?
Mrs. Witte. I have heard from many individuals in Cleveland and
they do seem to be doing very well.
Mr. Manuel, What individual in Cleveland have you heard from
in the regard ?
Mrs. Witte. I refuse to answer that under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge, are there membei^ of
the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in the Cleveland area?
Mrs. Witte. I did not see them initiated so, therefore, I cannot
verify the fact.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, as the Grand Empress of the ladies
units of the National Knights in the State of Ohio, would you please
tell the committee how you determine whether a person is a member
of the Klan, or not ?
Mrs. Witte. No, sir; I refuse to answer that on the same grounds,
as stated before.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, do you know an individual by the name
of Daniel Wagner?
Mrs. Witte. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee when you first met
Daniel Wagner ?
3534 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mrs. WiTTE. The first contact I had with Daniel was on a Satur-
day afternoon. He called my home. This must have been a bit more
than a year ago. Then one mornino; my daughter brought him in
with the Sunday morning paper. He had been sitting on my porch
for about 2 hours.
He stuck like glue. He wanted so desperately to be recognized as
something important, to be important, to do something important. So
I tried to give him small things to do, to make him feel that he was
accomplishing something.
But I thought Danny was a psychopath. After he came to my house
the jfirst time or two, he started trying to help me. He wanted to really
help me. He was writing letters to magazines and newspapers all over
the country and he would send them to me for my signature. He
thought he was really accomplishing something, or helping the cause
along, by doing this. Well, I wouldn't send tliem to the editors, of
course. After a while, be became a little disenchanted with this.
Then he found the Klan was on the scene, and especially after this
rally was first announced. So, he wanted to join.
All this time, Danny had been maintaining he had an honorable
discharge from tlie Army, and he was supposed to be a very bright boy,
though his language was very bad, and I didn't especially care about
having him around my children, but still I tried to be patient with
him and hoped eventually he would straighten up and be a man.
Mr. Manuel. ]\Irs. Witte, you testified that Mr. Wagner called you
on the telephone.
Mrs. Witte. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. And that was your first contact with him; approxi-
mately a year ago. Is that correct?
Mrs. Witte. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Why did Mr. Wagner contact you ?
Mrs. Witte. Because I probably raised more Cain than anybody else
in Cincinnati.
Mr. Pool. What do you mean by that ?
Mrs. Witte. I mean I am in several right Aving groups. When some-
thing comes my way that I don't like and think can be changed, I will
go out and picket, if necessary, and, if necessary, circulate petitions
on the street, or do whatever is necessaiy to quell the situation.
Mr. Pool. Did you ever engage in any unlawful acts ?
Mrs. Witte. If I had, sir, I think I would have been arrested.
Mr. Pool. You didn't answer my question.
Mrs. Witte. Well, not for publication.
Mr. Pool. You still didn't answer my question.
Mrs. Witte. Not to my knowledge. I don't even spit on the
sidewalk.
Mr. Pool. That would be a good place for you to invoke the fifth
amendment.
Mrs. Witte. No ; I think I will just leave that as is.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, do you know how Mr. Wagner got your
phone number or got information about you in order to call you?
Mrs. Witte. Well, I think through the newspapers, probably, be-
cause we had a Eussian health exhibit coming to our music hall, and
there was quite a bit of publicity about that. I think that is possibly
the way he would have found out something about me.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3535
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, on approximately how many separate
occasions did you meet with Mr. Wagner?
Mrs. Witte. I don't think more than three or four, before the rally.
Mr. Manuel. When was the last time that you had contact with Mr.
Wagner ?
Mrs. Witte. About the first part of June.
Mr. Manuel. Of 1965 ?
Mrs. Witte. 1965 ; yes.
Mr. Manuel. On that last contact with Mr. Wagner, would you
please tell the committee what was discussed?
Mrs. Witte. Yes; he wanted to fill out an application for the Klan.
He had started to fill out one before and, as I told you before, he had
told us he was 21, had finished his duties in the service.
So he started to fill out his application and he got as far as his age,
and then I took his application from him.
Mr. Manuel. Did you provide Mr. Wagner with an application for
a Klan group ?
Mrs. Witte. I provide lots of people.
Mrs. Manual. Specifically ?
Mrs. Witte. Yes, I gave him an application. Yes, as a matter of
fact, I have the same one here, partially filled. That is where I took it,
and I did not allow him to continue filling out the application.
Mr. Manuel. Did you at any time, Mrs. Witte, accept any money
from Mr. Wagner as an initiation fee or as a klectokon for Klan
membership ?
Mrs. Witte. No, sir. As you can see, his application is incomplete.
I did not accept anything from him. As a matter of fact, at the point
you see, I took the application from him. I would not allow him to
finish it.
(Document marked "Eloise Witte Exhibit No. 2" appears on p. 3536.)
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Wagner did write at the request of Mr. Morris,
according to Mr. Morris' own testimony, a letter (Bobby Stephens
Exhibit No. 5) in which he set down certain descriptions of conversa-
tions which he allegedly had with you.
In the course of this letter, Mr. Wagner stated that it was through
you that he purchased a weapon, namley, a .250 Savage rifle, and also
a .32 caliber Mauser, from one W. A. Davis, of Dayton, Ohio.
Mrs. Witte. At my instigation ?
Mr. Manuel. This is what he put in.
Mr. Pool. Read exactly what the letter says about that.
Mr. Manuel. [Reading:]
On April 10, 1965 I accompannied [sic] Mrs. Witte and others to an N.S.R.P.
meeting at 224 Oalc St., Dayton 2, Ohio. After the meeting Mrs. Witte introduced
a Mr. W. A. Davis to me in hopes of acquiring a weapon for myself. Mr. Davis
sold me a 32 German Mauser pistol and a 250 savage Rifle. He then had me fill
out an I.O.U. stating what I had purchased and the price. I mailed Mr. Davis
$75.00 on April 12, 1965, and $50.00 on April 29, 1965.
Now, Mrs. Witte, do you know W. A. Davis?
Mr. Witte. I have met the gentleman, yes; and T know that he is
a legitimate gini dealer, but I did not ask Danny to buy a gun.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know for a fact whether Mr. Wagner did
purchase the guns which he describes in this letter?
3536 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Eloise Witte Exhibit No. 2
APPUCATION FOR CITIZENSHIP
IN THE
INVISIBLE EMPIRE
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
I, the undersigned, a native born, true and loyal citizen of the United States of America, being a white male Gentile persoa
of temperate habits^ sound in mind and a believer in the tenets of the Christian religion, the maintenance of White Supremacy and
the principles of a "pure Americanism," do most respectfully apply for membership in the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan through
Kl^ No , Realm of
I guarantee on my honor to conform strictly to all rules and requirements regulating my "naturalization" and the continuance
of my membership, and at all times a strict and loyal obedience to your constitutional authority and the constitution and laws of the
fraternity, not in conflict with the constitution and constitutional laws of the United States of America and the states thereof. If I
\jTOve untrue as a Klansman I will willingly accept as my portion whatever penalty your authority may impose.
The required "klectokon" accompanies this application.
Signed Applicant
Endoised by Residence Address
KI Business Address ,
KI Date , 19
The person securing this application must sign on top line above. NOTICE — Check the address to which mail may be sent.
NOTICE
The sum of this donation MUST
accompany application, if poss'ble.
Upon payment of same by appli-
cant this certificate is made out
and signed by person securing ap-
plication, then detached and given
to applicant, who will keep same
and bring it with him when he is
called, and then turn it in on de-
mand in lieu of the cash.
DO NOT detach if donation is
not paid in advance.
This certifies that
has donated the :
"DOLLARS to the propagating fund of the
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
and same is accepted as such and as full sum of "KLECTOKON" entitling him to be
received, on the acceptance of his application, under the laws, regulations and require-
ments of the Order, duly naturalized and to have and to hold all the rights, titles, hon-
ors and protection as a citizen of the Invisible Empire. He enters through the portal of
Klan No
Realn
Date
Received in trust for the
KNIGHTS OF THE KU KLUX KLAN
(Back of Application for Citizenship)
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3537
Mrs. WiTTE. I can't vouch for that because I was not with Danny
and I have never been to Mr. Davis' home or shop. The only contact
I have had witli Mr. Davis has been in NSRP meetings.
On occasion, he lias been to Cincinnati to the NSRP meetings, and
I have from time to time visited Dayton. On the particuLar date
he specifices, that was one of the mornings he was brought in with
the paper, and I was to address an afternoon meeting in Dayton, Ohio,
of the NSRP.
He wanted to go along, because that was half way back to Columbus,
and he could ride back. He became acquainted with many people
there.
Later he told me that he had bought the guns, but as I said before,
I did not go with him. I did not encourage him to buy them and I
don't even know what Mr. Davis has, though I know he has a license
to deal in weapons.
Mr. Pool. Did the letter state that she introduced Mr. Davis to
Mr. Wagner ?
Mr. Manuel. The letter states :
After the meeting Mrs. Witte introduced a Mr. W. A. Davis to me in hopes of
acquiring a weapon for myself.
Mrs. Witte. Why does he say "in hopes" ? I don't know what is
wrong with the boy.
Mr. Pool. Did you introduce Mr. Wagner ?
Mrs. Witte. I must have introduced him to hundreds of people.
Mr. Pool. That same day ?
Mrs. Witte. Yes, sir. All the people T knew in that meeting I
introduced to him, because my daughter and her boyfriend, as well as
Danny and myself, went along to that meeting. So the people in the
meeting I knew, I introduced them to the children, as well as to Danny,
but certainly with no idea about buying weapons.
Mr. Clawson. Did you identify this gentleman as a dealer in fire-
arms, in your introduction ?
Mrs. Witte. I didn't tell him. I didn't tell him. If anyone told
him, it must have been Mr. Davis himself.
Mr. Pool. Just a minute.
You never have answered my question as to the reason why you
introduced Mr. Davis to Mr. Wagner.
Mrs. Witte. When you are in a meeting, why do you introduce
one person to another? Simply because they are your friends, or
because you want them to be acquainted with them.
Mr. Pool. I am asking you the question: Why did you introduce
Mr. Davis to Mr. Wagner? It is verj' simple. Wliy did you?
Mrs. Witte. That sounds like a strange question to me. Wlien I
am in a meeting with anybody, I introduce them to each other.
Mr. Pool. Is your answer that you had no reason to introduce them
to each other?
Mrs. Witte. I had no particular reason to introduce them, no, except
they were just people and all thinking alike, so everybody should be-
come acquainted with everybody else.
Mr. Pool. And you knew Mr. Davis was a gun dealer, though?
Mrs. Witte. Yes, I was aware of that.
Mr. Pool. And you didn't know Mr. Wagner wanted to buy a gun ?
3538 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mrs. WiTTE. He had mentioned it to me months before, but I don't
think — possibly the latter part of January, or maybe in February, he
had mentioned to me something about he was afraid in his place of
work, and so forth, but I did not introduce him to Mr. Davis for the
purpose of buying a gun, because I was to speak there that day.
Mr. Pool. Then I will ask you this question : You did not introduce
Mr. Davis to Mr. Wagner so that they could get together to buy a gun ?
Mrs. WiTTE. Certainly not.
Mr. Pool. Is that your answer?
Mrs. WiTTE. That is my answer, because I am sure there are plenty
of gun dealers in Columbus, if he wanted to buy one.
Mr. Pool. 1 am just trying to get to the fact, and you still haven't
told me the reason wdiy you introduced them.
You remember introducing him, so you must have had a reason.
Mrs. WiTTE. I don't remember specifically introducing him, but I
said I introduced him to a lot of people, because he was a stranger
on the scene.
Mr. Pool. That does not answer the question.
Mrs. WiTTE. 1 think it is a pretty good answer.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, was Daniel Wagner, to your certain
knowledge, present at the Klan rally held at Parkie Scott's farm on
May 28 and 29?
Mrs. Witte. Yes, he was.
Mr. Manuel. Was he at any time during that rally wearing a Klan
robe?
Mrs. Witte. Yes, he took one off the clothesline.
Mr. Manuel. He did what?
Mrs. Witte. He took a Klan robe from the clothesline. Someone
had hung one out in the air to get the wrinkles or folds out, so Danny
just grabbed it and decided to go down there and make a big splash
before the new^spaper people.
Mr. Manuel. WTiat contact did you have with Mr. Wagner prior
to that rally?
Mrs. Witte. He told me he had a vacation coming and he was so
desperate to do something, I mean to be helpful to us in some way,
because I would not use his letters that he was writing to the news-
papers and magazines, would not allow him to be a correspondent for
me, in other words, and Parkie needed someone to clean up the dead
trees and that sort of thing in an area wdiich was to be used for
parking.
Danny agreed to go down and help. He agreed to go down and
clean up the farm on his week off, and that is his purpose there.
Mr. Pool. We have had testimony that Mr. Davis and Mr. Wagner
were introduced by you for the purpose of purchasing a gun.
Mrs. Witte. Yes.
Mr. Pool. And you say you did not introduce them for that
purpose?
Mrs. WiiTE. I say I did not.
Mr. Pool. You answered my question a while ago and said that was
not the purpose of introducing them.
Mrs. Witte. That was not the purpose of introducing them.
Mr. Pool. What w^as the purpose of introducing them, then ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN TN THE U.S. 3539
Mrs. WiTTE. The purpose of introducing them was because they did
not know each other, and I introduced him to at least 50 people in that
meeting and introduced him for the purpose of making him acquainted
with them.
Mr. Pool. I am making this serious, because you knew he wanted to
buy a gun and you knew Mr. Davis was in the gun business.
Mrs. WiTTE. Mr. Davis was in a long line of people.
Mr. Pool. Somebody is committing perjury in this hearing, and the
transcript will show that.
Mrs. WiTTE. Sir, if I had wanted him to buy a gun, I know dealers
closer to me than up in Dayton where I coulcl have sent him. I did
not have to send him to Mr. JDavis.
Mr. Pool. Why do you know all these gun dealers ?
Mrs. WiTTE. I just happen to know a lot of them.
Mr. Pool. Are you an expert on guns ? Is that the reason ?
Mrs. WiTTE. Not exactly.
Mr. Pool. Can you explain that any further, why you know so many
gun dealers ?
Mrs. WiTTE. A lot of them just happen to cross my path, just as a
lot of teachers have crossed my path, too.
Mr. Pool. Well, I have given you a chance to explain it.
Mrs. WiTTE. I have no particular reason for knowing any gun deal-
ers. I do not deal in them, I do not buy them, and I do not introduce
people to them for the purpose of buying guns.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, Mr. Wagner stated in his letter that his
first contact with you came on or about the 19th of March 1965.
Mrs. Witte. That is a lie.
Mr. Pool. IVliat was that ?
Mr. Manuel. I said Mr. Wagner in his letter stated that his first
contact with Mrs. Witte came on or about the 19th or 20th of March
1965.
Mr. Pool. He testified to that the other day ?
Mr. Manuel. That was in his letter.
Mr. Pool. Now, you say he is a liar ?
Mrs. Witte. Yes,
Mr. Pool. Then we have a clear case of perjury here. Someone is
committing perjury.
Go ahead.
Mrs. Witte. He came to me the first time, I think the first time, in
January, and I know for sure that by that time he had paid one or two
visits to me before the Russian health exhibit, which would have been
the 20th of February of last year, at the music hall, because he went
there with me and he picketed that music hall in Cincinnati the 20th
of February.
Mr. Manuel. Was that the first time you had met Mr. Wagner?
Mrs. Witte. No; he had been down once before. He callecl me on
the teleplione, and I think once or twice he had been to my house before
the 20th of February.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Wagner makes mention of that particular activity
in his letter, and he states as follow^s:
Mrs. Witte found that I didn't believe in these small marches or protest but
in much larger protest or in drastic steps.
3540 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Now, did Mr. Wagner convey to you the idea at that time that he
was •
Mrs. WiTTE. That he believed in more drastic steps ?
Mr. Manuel, les.
Mrs. WiTTE. Yes, he did.
Mr. Manuel. Could you tell the committee what conversation you
had with Mr. Wagner along those lines ?
Mrs. WiTTE. I told Mr. Wagner we have tAvo ways to do it, that is,
the ballot and the boycott. We can protest to draw attention to our
grievance, but we can only take legal steps to remedy, and it must be
by one of the other of the two things I mentioned to him, and not the
type of thing he was speaking of.
Mr. Manuel. What type of thing was he speaking of ?
Mrs. WiTTE. Well, apparently he believed in a mass march on
Washington, for one thing. He believed someone should come up here
and turn Washington up side down,
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever have conversations with INIr. Wagner
subsequent to this time concerning specific acts of violence, such as
murder, assassination, or anything like that?
Mrs. Witte. Well, Danny is quite a loud mouth, and he does a
lot of talking, but I can't remember a particular instance where he
said he wanted to murder anyone.
Mr. Manuel. Your testimony is that he never discussed with
you, nor you with him— —
Mr. Pool. Just a minute, Mr. Manuel.
You did not answer his question. You have given general and
evasive answers. Now answer his question.
The reporter will read the question back.
(The question was read by the reporter.)
Mrs. Witte. Do you want me to give something I don't remem-
ber, and then give a "no" to something I remember later ?
Mr. Pool. Did you have any conversation along that line ?
Answer the question.
Mrs. Witte. I have no conversation with him.
Mr. Pool. Did he say anything?
Mrs. Witte. I told you I am trying to remember.
Mr. Pool. We will give you plenty of time. How long do you
want ?
Mrs. Witte. I Imow I had a bad time keeping him under control,
because he thought there should be mass demonstrations, but he didn't
say anything to me about murdering anyone.
Mr. Pool. Do you deny his statement that he did have that con-
versation ?
Mrs. Witte. I am saying I can't remember an instance where he
did mention murder to me.
Mr. Pool. Do you deny his statement ?
Mrs. Witte. I told you I don't remember his ever saying anything
like this to me.
Mr. Pool. You have a chance here to deny his statement, if you
want to take advantage of it.
Mrs. Witte. Well, if I could remember an instance where he
wanted to murder someone, I would tell you.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3541
Mr. Pool. There are just two people who know anything about
it, you and him. Now, do you want to deny his statement?
Mrs. WiTTE. I tliink at all times Mr. Wagner has been with me
someone else has been present, whether it was Mr. Morris, my hus-
band, my children, and I am quite sure he would not have spoken
of this before them.
Mr. Pool. So you refuse to deny his statement? Is that right?
Mrs. WiTTE. I am not denying it, nor confinning it. I am say-
ing I do not remember an instance where he spoke to me of murder.
Mr. Maxuel. Specifically, Mrs. Witte, did you converse with
Mr. Wagner with regard to a possible assassination of Mr. William
Hugh Morris, which was supposed to take place at Parkie Scott's
farm?
]\Irs. Witte. Certainly not.
I have heard about this plot, but Mr. Morris was living at my
house, and I think I had ample opportunity if I wanted to do away
with him, to put a little something in his coffee, but he continued
to live with me. He was living at our house, and certainly he was
a very fine guest.
Mr. Pool. That might be more easily detected.
Mrs. Witte. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Pool. Putting something in his coff'ee might be more easily
detected.
Mrs. Witte. Well, maybe; but, no, I had never thought about
doing away with Mr. Morris. As a matter of fact, he is one of my
best people.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Wagner ever convey to you that he was
an expert with an M-1 rifle ?
Mrs. Witte. No.
Mr. Manuel. He did not?
Mrs. Witte. He did not.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever have any conversation with him with
regard to him acting as a sniper against Negroes ?
Mrs. Witte. No, indeed.
Danny, I suppose, if you asked him, would tell you I never advo-
cated such a thing. I have told him always we must stay well
within the law, that we would tolerate no such nonsense.
Mr. Manuel. Did he talk to you about it, though? Did he sug-
gest it to you ?
Mrs. Witte. Well, a time or two, he jokingly said, "We ought
to get out and stir up something," but he didn't say what.
Mr. Manuel. Specifically, did he mention in conversation with
you, or you with him, ways of killing President Johnson or Vice
President Humphrey ?
Mrs. Witte. No, indeed.
Mr. Manuel. He never did ?
Mrs. Witte. He never did.
Mr. Manuel. You never had a conversation in that regard with
Mr. Wagner wdiatsoever ?
Mrs. Witte. No, indeed.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever have a conversation with Mr. Wagner
in the presence of Mr. Richard Hanna ?
59-222 O— 67— pt. 5 5
3542 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mrs. WiTi'E. Mr. Hanna? He has been to my house on several
occasions, and I suppose their paths might have crossed there.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge, did you converse with
Mr. Wagner in tlie presence of Mr. Hanna ?
Mrs. WiTTE. I suppose I have on occasion.
Yes, I did. I remember once he was to my house, and as a mat-
ter of fact he went over to Covington and stayed either with Mr.
Hanna or somewhere in that vicinity, but they Avere to my house
for an evening.
Mr. Manuel. What was the conversation which took place at that
particular evening, as you remember it ?
Mrs. WiTTE. They both wanted to get into the Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Did either one of them actually join the Klan as a
result of their meeting with you ?
Mrs. White. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Wagner
in the presence of Mr. Hanna to the effect that you wanted to take
some violent action against your husband ?
Mrs. WiTTE. No. They knew my husband didn't agree with me.
As a matter of fact, I had — both of these boys are a little upset
mentally, I think. Well, they are emotionally disturbed, at least, and
my husband
Mr. Pool. Do you have some reason to say that ? Have they been
examined by psychiatrists ?
Mrs. WiTTE. One of my friends is a phychiatric nurse, and she be-
lieves Mr. Hanna is way overboard.
Mr, Pool. Is she qualified to pass judgment on someone like that?
Mrs. WiTTE. Yes.
Mr. Pool. A psychiatric nurse ?
Mrs. WiTTE. Yes.
Mr. Pool. What is her name ?
Mrs. WiTTE. Her name is Mrs. Thomas Cameron.
Mr. Pool. Where does she live?
Mr. WiTTE. On Davy Avenue, in College Hill.
Well, she knows that he is emotionally disturbed
Mr. Manuel. You are talking about Mr. Hanna, now?
Mrs. WiTTE. Yes.
I tried to engage both my husband and Mr. Morris to help these
boys to live a more normal life. Let's put it that way. To teach them
to bowl, to teach them to take some interest in sports, or something
besides just having hate on their mind 24 hours a day.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Wagner in his letter said that he knew Mr.
Hanna to be, as he put it, a late member of the Nazi Party in Ken-
tucky. Did you know Mr. Richard Hanna to be a member of the
Nazi Party, or American Nazi Party ?
Mrs. WiTTE. When Mr. Hanna first came to me, he was a member
of Rockwell's group. He had been up here Washington on several
occasions, or over in Arlington. I encouraged him to get out, and lie
did and he sent a copy of a letter charging him with mutiny by
Rockwell.
Mr. Pool. Charging him with what?
Mrs. WiTTE. Mutiny. That is what he charges people with who
drop out of his group.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3543
But yes, I did encourage Mr. Hanna to drop out of the group.
Mr. Manuel. Why did you maintain contact with Mr. Hanna?
Mrs. WiTTE. Because I wanted to help him.
Mr. Manuel. But you would not get him into the Klan ?
Mrs. WiTTE. No, sir ; I would not get him into the Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Did he know you to be an official of the Klan?
Mrs. WiTTE. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Did you give him an application ?
Mrs. WiTTE. No.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever collect money or klectokon from him
as initiation fee ?
Mrs. WiTTE. No ; I did not.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever make the statement to Mr. Wagner
that your husband had threatened to commit you to a mental insti-
tution ?
Mrs. WiTTE. No.
Mr. Manuel. You never did ?
Mrs. WiTTE, I did not.
Mr. Pool. Did your husband ever threaten you that way ?
Mrs. WiTTE. No, sir; he doesn't like my activities in the Klan, but
he doesn't give me credit for being a fool.
Mr. Clawson. Do you think he should ?
Mrs. WiTTE. I think maybe he should learn something about the
Klan. As a matter of fact, I think a lot of people ought to learn
something about it, then I don't suppose we would have so much
confusion about it.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever make the statement to Mr. Wagner
that the Klan had hired a gunman for $25,000?
Mrs. WiTTE. Heavens, no.
Mr. Manuel. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Wagner re-
garding the appearance of Martin Luther King at Antioch College
in Yellow Sprmgs, Ohio ?
Mrs. WiTTE. No.
Mr. Manuel. None whatsoever ?
Mrs. WiTTE. I had no contact with him about it. However he
read it in tlie paper and he gave me a call about it, and he also had
written a letter prior to King's appearance saying he hoped I
wouldn't be alarmed with him, but he had some ideas that he wanted
to carry out, and so forth. But Mr. Morris was at my house at that
time, and he knows I refused to talk with Danny on the telephone.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Wagner ever tell you what these plans were
that he had for Martin Luther King?
Mrs. WiTTE. No ; he didn't tell me.
Mr. Manuel. Did you introduce Mr. Morris to Mr. Wagner?
Mrs. Witte. Mr. Morris was living at my home once when Danny
came down ; yes.
Mr. Manuel. Is that the first time Mr. Wagner ever met Mr.
Morris to your knowledge?
Mrs. Witte. Yes.
Now let's give Mr. Pool time to find out why I introduced them.
Mr. Manuel. Could you tell tlie committee what date approxi-
mately the meeting between Mr. Morris and Mr. Wagner took
place?
3544 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mrs. WiTTE. I have no idea, but it would have been sometime, I
think, about the time of the rally.
Mr. Manuel. Wliich would mean that you had known Mr. Wag-
ner for approximately 5 or 6 months, is that correct, according to
your testimony ?
Mrs. WiTTE. From about, I suppose, the latter part of January;
yes.
Mr. Maxuel. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Morris
not in the presence of Mr. Wagner regarding Mr. Wagner's char-
acter or his conversations with you ?
Mrs. WiTTE. Yes; I told him he was not emotionally stable and
I told him he was not fit for anything, but perhaps with a little
patience on the part of himself and my husband, they could make
him feel important by giving him small things to do which didn't
amount to much, but they might be able to get him on the right
path.
Mr. Clawson. What acts or staternents had led you to believe
Mr. Wagner was a psychopathic case or an emotional case? "Wliat
did he say or do?
Mrs. WiTTE. Well, you know, always talking about going out and
a mass march, or a mob doing something. As a matter of fact, I
think that is what he thought the Klan was supposed to do — just
become a violent mob.
Mr. Clawson. A violent mob.
Mrs. Wptte. I think that is what he had in mind.
Mr. Clawson. He talked about mob violence?
Mrs. WiTTE. Yes ; I am quite sure that that is what he wanted.
Mr. Clawson. Along with this, did he speak of the kind of action
that might be accomplished by this?
Mrs. WiTTE. No; he didn't tell me what sort of action because
I never let him get that far. I tried to always change the subject
or get him on to something more rational, because I am sure I made
it quite clear we do not believe in mob action.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, did you ever have a conversation with
Mr. Wagner in which you conveyed the idea to Mr. Wagner that
you were the secret head of the Klans of the Dixie Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan in the State of Ohio?
Mrs. Witte. No, indeed.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever give Mr. Wagner an application for
the Dixie Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mrs. Witte. Not to my knowledge ; no.
However, I must tell you this. I trusted Danny. He was in my
home quite a lot. Sometimes I had to leave. I mean quite often.
I have left him in my house alone.
Mr. Clawson. With your children ?
Mrs. Witte. No; I mean absolutely alone, but I thought since,
well, he had told us the story about being deserted when he was a
baby by his mother, so I thought just the normal home environment
might do something for him, to make him know he was trusted,
to make him think that we liked him and wanted to help him or to
accept him at least.
I mean it is possible that he might have found the Klan applica-
tion. I am not sure if he went through my things while I was out
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3545
or not, but I am sure he will tell you he was on occasion in my
home alone.
Mr. Manuel. How did you find out, Mrs. Witte, that Mr. Wagner
had written this letter?
Mrs. Witte. The other day Mr. Morris and Mr. Venable came
by my hotel room and had told me.
Mr. Manuel. In other words, you had not heard of the existence
of this letter prior to your stay in Wasliington ?
Mrs. Witte. I didn't know about a letter. Mr. Morris did tell
me that he had heard of a plot underfoot to do away with the Presi-
dent and my husband, himself, Martin Luther King, and Humphrey.
Mr. Manuel. Did he tell you that Mr. Wagner had put this ma-
terial in a letter which was read to him by Mr. Verlin Gilliam ?
Mrs. Witte. He mentioned about the plot, but I dichi't know it
was in the form of a letter. Perhaps Mr. Morris mentioned it, but
it was so ridiculous I just forgot about the whole thing.
Mr. Manuel. On what date did Mr. Morris inform you of this
information?
Mrs. Witte. I don't remember. It was sometime in the summer.
Mr. Clawson. Did he tell you it was Mr. Wagner's letter?
Mrs. Witte. Mr. Wagner's; yes.
Mr. Clawson. He did tell you it was Mr. Wagner's idea?
Mrs. Witte. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, did Mr. Morris ever actively
investigate the charges or the information contained in this letter
to find out wliether they were true or false?
Mrs. Witte. I don't know what Mr. Morris did about it. I heard
his testimony today, but he did not tell me about it.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Morris ever ask you for an affirmation or
denial as to the material contained in this letter?
Mrs. Witte. No. When he mentioned it, we just laughed about it.
We thought it was a big joke. We didn't think anybody could be
that much of a fool.
Mr. Clawson. Knowing he was unstal:»le and you called him a
psychopathic case, do you think you should have taken it as lightly
as you did, that this man might carry out some of the things he
said here?
Mrs. Witte. Mr. Clawson, I found this to be the case — most peo-
ple who do that much talking never go into action. No, I never did
think he would do anything like that, I really didn't.
Mr. Clawson. Did you take any steps at all to see that it wouldn't
happen ?
Airs. Witte. After the letter?
Mr. Clawson. Yes, or after you heard about it, after you heard
this plot was underway ?
Mrs. Witte. No; because by that time I stopped answering my
telephone and I was trying to stay away from him as mucli as I
could. He was just annoying us. Appeared every time he liad a
day oft' and he called two or three or four times a night.
Mr. Clawson. Did you notify any law enforcement officers of this
threat?
Mrs. WmT.. No; I didn't think it was serious. I thought he
misfht hav^e taken this method of retaliation because he was denied
3546 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
membership in the Klan. I really didn't think he would try to
carry through on anything as ridiculous as this.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Wagner further testified on October 25, 1965,^
in the presence of Verlin Gilliam and Bobby J. Stephens, he was
administered an oath by Mr. Morris to become a member of the
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. Do you know if tliis testimony is
true or not ?
Mrs. WiTTE. I doubt this very much. I will tell you this: Mr.
Stephens is another one I told to look after Danny to see to it that
he got him on the riglit path. So I would say right offhand if an
oath was administered, Stephens would have done it, because I
don't think Mr. Morris would have.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Witte, prior to your appearance this after-
noon, have you discussed any or all of your testimony with Mr.
Robert Shelton ?
Mrs. WrrTE. No ; certainly not.
Mr. Manuel. You have not had any conversation with Mr.
Shelton ?
Mrs. Witte. Yes; the first day I came to my hotel I met him.
But he knows nothing about my business, if you are talking about
what I know here.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions of Mrs.
Witte.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused.
Mrs. Witte. Permanently or just today?
Mr. Pool. Yes.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Manuel. I would like to call at this time Mr. Earl D.
Holcombe.
Mr. Pool. Raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Holcombe. I do.
TESTIMONY OF EARL DONALD HOLCOMBE
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Holcombe, would you state your full name for
the record ?
Mr. Holcombe. Earl D. Holcombe.
Mr. Manuel. What does the "D" stand for in your name ?
Mr. Holcombe. Donald.
Mr. Manuel. Are you represented by counsel, Mr. Holcombe?
Mr. Holcombb. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. At this time I would like to inform you that you
have a right to counsel and ask you whether at this time you desire
a counsel ?
Mr. Holcombe. No, sir ; not at this time.
Mr. Manuel. Prior to your appearance, have you received the
advice of counsel ?
Mr. Holcombe. No, sir; not in a legal way.
1 Actually according to Mr. Wagner and Mr. Stephens, Wagner was sworn in on July
18, 1965.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3547
Mr. Manuel. Are you aware of your rights under the Constitu-
tion under the fifth amendment?
Mr. HoLCOMBE. Eiglit.
Mr. Maxuel. Are you aware of the fact that at any time during
your testimony this afternoon, if you so desire counsel, arrange-
ments will be made to obtain counsel for you ?
Mr. HoLCOMBE. Right.
Mr. Maxuel. Have you obtained a copy of the chairman's open-
ing statement of October 1965 ?
Mr. Holcombe. Right.
Mr. Manuel. Have you read that statement, Mr. Holcombe, and
become familiar with it?
Mr. Holcombe. I have.
Mr. Pool. You are familiar with the contents?
Mr. Holcombe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Where do you currently reside ?
Mr. Holcombe. I decline to answer that question because I hon-
estly feel my answer might tend to incriminate me in violation of
my rights under, guaranteed to me by amendments 4, 1, 5, 10, and
14 of tlie Constitution of the United States of America and, further-
more, I further decline to testify on the grounds that it might tend
to jeopardize my job, my life, or my family.
Mr. Manuel. Have you held membership in any Ku Klux Klan
organizations?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever been a member of the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Manuel. Are you appearing before the subcommittee this
afternoon in response to a subpena served upon you at the U.S.
marshal's office in Atlanta, Georgia, at 1 p.m. on the 7th day of
February 1966 ?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the same grounds, sir.
Mr. Manuel. I am just asking you whetlier you received a sub-
pena to appear here today.
Mr. Holcombe. I have a subpena ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you receive it on the date and place indicated?
Mr. Holcombe. The date, I am not positive.
Mr. Pool. You were served a subpena, though ?
Mr. Holcombe. I have a subpena.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Holcombe, an attachment was made part of your
subpena, and in paragraph 1 of that attachment, you were called
upon to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to
the organization of and the conduct of the business and the affairs of the
Invisible Empire, United Klans, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of America,
Inc., also known as the United Klans of America, Inc., Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan, and its aflSliated organization, namely, the Alabama Rescue Service, in
your possession, custody or control, or available to you.
At this time I would ask you to produce any and all documents
which you have which are called for in paragraph 1 of your sub-
pena.
Mr. Holcombe. I decline to answer that.
3548 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. Would you like to have the advice of legal counsel
before you make that answer ?
Mr. HoLCOMBE. No, sir. I decline to answer that question for the
reason that I honestly feel my answer might tend to incriminate me
in violation of my rights as guaranteed to me by amendments 5, 1,
4, 9, 10, and 14 of the Constitution of the United States of America
and, furthermore, I decline on the grounds that it might jeopardize
my job, my life, or my family's life, and my job.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Holcombe, so we don't misunderstand, I didn't
ask you a question. I asked you to produce documents and records
called for in paragraph 1 of the subpena.
If you have any explanation to make or any books or records to
produce for the committee, I wish you would do so at this time.
Mr. Holcombe. I don't have any.
Mr. Pool. You don't have any. Is that what you said ? You are
not pleading the fifth amendment? You are saying you don't have
any.
Mr, Holcombe. I just don't have any.
Mr. Pool. Have you ever had any in your possession ?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer that on the grounds that it
violates my rights as guaranteed to me by amendments 5, 1, 4, 9, 10,
and 14 of the Constitution of the United States of America.
Mr. Pool. Did you destroy any of these records after you received
your subpena ?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the same grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Pool. I order and direct you to present the documents called
for in the subpena in accordance with Mr. Manuel's request.
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the ground previously
stated, sir.
Mr. Pool. The Chair wants to advise you that there have been
seven citations passed by the House of Representatives and turned
over to the Federal attorney, based upon the grounds of a refusal
to bring these documents and records to this committee in answer to
a subpena, and I think they all pleaded the fifth amendment or were
basing their defense on the fifth amendment.
If you wish, the Chair will give you an opportunity to get counsel
to advise you as to whether or not you have the right to deny the
answer.
Mr. Manuel. There being no response, I will proceed with the
reading of paragraph 2 of Mr. Holcombe's subpena.
Paragraph 2 calls upon you, Mr. Holcombe, to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to
the organization of and the conduct of the business and the affairs of the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc., the Vigilantes, the Black Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan, and the Black Shirts, in your possession, custody or control, or
available to you.
At this time I would like to ask you to produce all the material
requested in paragraph 2 of your subpena.
Mr. Pool. Before you answer that, the Chair wishes to state that
in the previous question where you refused to answer, pleaded the
fifth amendment, that the Chair does not recognize your answer as a
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3549
valid reason for not producing them and ordered and directed you
at that time to do so.
Go ahead now.
Mr. HoLcoMBE. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. The Chair directs and orders you to produce the records
and documents called for in the subpena in paragraph 2.
Is that right, Mr. Manuel ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. I order and direct you to produce those records.
Mr. HoLCOMBE. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Pool. Go ahead, Mr. Manuel.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Holcombe, would you pleas© describe for the
committee
Mr. Pool. Just a minute. Your answer is rejected by the Chair.
Mr. Holcombe, Sir?
Mr. Pool. Your answer is rejected by the Chair.
Go ahead.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Holcombe, would you please describe for the
committee the lapel pin Avhich you are wearing on your suit?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Is that a pin denoting membership in a Ku Klux
Klan organization, specifically the United Klans of America?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever held membership in the United
Klans of America ?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Holcombe, I would like to show you a story
taken from the Atlanta Constitution of Friday, January 13, 1961,
headed, "Arsenal Confiscated From Car — 2 Claim To Be Fulton
Deputies."
The story is datelined from Athens, Georgia, and it describes that
certain people were arrested with regard to activities on the campus
of the University of Georgia ; arrested on charges of carrying dead-
ly weapons to a public gathering were the following persons: Lloyd
Homer Mapp, William K. Stubbins, Charles Albert Scroggs, Dan
Gus Peskopos, Sidney Thomas Puckett, all of Atlanta, and Earl
Donald Holcombe, 31, of College Park,
All but Puckett admitted to Klan membership, and Mapp and
Stubbins claimed to be special Fulton deputies.
Mr. Holcombe, I ask you to read this article and advise the com-
mittee as to whether you are the Earl Donald Holcombe described
in that article ?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
(Document marked "Earl Holcombe Exhibit No, 1" appears on
p. 3550.)
Mr. Manuel. Were you at the time this article was written a
member of the U.S. Klans?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the gromids previously
stated.
3550
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Earl Holcombe Exhibit No. 1
[Atlanta (Ga.) Constitution, January 13. 1961]
Arsenal
Confiscated
From Car
2 Qaiin To Be
Fulton Deputies
By BRUCE C.AI.PHIN
ATHENS — aty police laid
Thursday that eiKht Atlanta area
Ku Klux Klansmen werr anvstoil
In th« middle of Wedi»es<li».v
night's bitter anti-inlegratipn riot
at the University.
In the car with the eijiht vn«n.
police said they di.'^covered a^d
confiscated a small arsenal o(
flreams.
Two of the men clainwd
to t>e special deputy sheriffs of
Fulton County, but Fulton records
were locked up "Hiursday after-
noon and unavailable for identifi-
cation.
PRESS HITS INSTIGATORS
The Athens Banner- Herald in a
front -page editorial Thursday aft-
ernoon asserted that "The (lersons
responsible for this disorder
should be severely prosecute^.
"Must people in Athens, the
University and Georgia do not
want integration, but tbay do not
want their problems aattM by
la^Mess rabble or federal inter-
venjlioi^ either."
ITie Mitorial alao was critic*)
of the ;SUtto Patrol for not being
'^inunediataly available."
the group was traveling to a Klan
meeting I in Washington, da . and
just happened to cet mixed up"
in the not after thipy stopped
Pblice Chief E E Hardy and
Police diarged five of the men Mayor Ralph Snow announced
they identified as Klansmen and jointly that police had confiscated
another Atlanta man with dls- mx pistols, all but one lo^ed. and
orderly conduct and carrying a t^o ammunition bells with extra
deadly weapon to a public gather- rounds.
The weapons include two 22
RELEASED ON BONDS caliber pistols, three .38a and a
They weft released on bonds of ^ automatic.
'^•**^*'- The gun.^ and buUets were
Three others identified as Klans- found under the front seat and
men were charged with disofOerly cu.shions of an automobile in
conduct and releuied on bonds of ^^hich some of the men were
$27 each. iravclinR. police reported
Eight students, whose names
were not listed by police, were re-
lea.sed earlier on $27 bonds for
disorderly conduct charges.
"Hie lesser charges will be tried
in Municipal Court Friday.
Arrested on the more serious
dw-ge were Lloyd Honter Mapp,
'QSli William R. Stv|4ii>«. M:
Charka Albert Scroggs. X Dan ^^
^'ii!;f^^ ^ ^f*'*/*2r^ several"'^i^i U^hidincT"^
[^lckett, both U, all of iVlanta. k »~
and Earl Donald Holcombe. 31. of
The outsiders showed up while
a rock-throwing, fire-setting, ob-
scenity shouting i^ob of some
!.«» students, townspeople and
other* mtfted around Center
Mj(*y Hall, where Charlayne
Hunter was living before Gov
Vandiver ordered her removed
"for her own safety" late
Wedne.sday night
Dormitory windows were stoned.
CoUece Park. Alt but Puckett ad-
mitted to Klan nwmbershlp. and
lice officer were wounded, and
police and riotera tangM opeoiy.
The melee atartad abortly after
Mapp and StiiJ>tuns claimed to be the Tech-Georgia basketball game
.special Fulton deputies, police Wednesday nlgbt mvd continued
said. for more tban twoHipurs.
The three men arrested on dis- Police used tear gas and fire
orderLv conduct charge.s were ho-ses to help l>reak up the dts-
listed by police as William Thomas turbance ■•"
Brooks. 2S: William Franklin
Griffeth. 34. and John Daniel Mil- The campus was quiet Thurs-
ler, 35. all of College Park. day and dassea operated almost
Police said Mapp asserted that nonrviUy.
Mr. Manuel. Were you in Athens, Georgia, at the direction of
any Klan official ?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Holcombe, have you ever held membership in
an organization called the Black Shirts?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Could you advise the committee the extent of your
knowledge concerning the group known as the Black Shirts ?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee whether Colbert Ray-
mond McGrifi' is also a member of the Black Shirts ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX EXAN IN THE U.S. 3551
Mr. HoLCOMBE. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Is Cecil William Myers a member of the Black
Shirts?
Mr. HoLCOMBE. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Is Joseph Howard Sims a member of the Black
Shirts?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Is Marlin Price a member of the Black Shirts?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the groimds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Is Curtis King a member of the Black Shirts?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Are all the persons whom I have just mentioned,
Mr. Holcombe, also members or have they held membership in the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever acted as a member of a degree team
for the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in the State of
Ohio?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, has Mr. Ray McGriff acted as
a member of the degree team ?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the gromids previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Holcombe, do you know Mr. Verlin Gilliam ?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the gromids previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever provided Mr. Gilliam with dyna-
mite?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know of the existence of dynamite in the
possession of members of the Black Shirts ?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Holcombe, Mr. Daniel Wagner appeared be-
fore the committee on last Friday and testified that he, in the com-
pany of Verlin Gilliam, went to Georgia on the weekend of July
11 and 12, 1965, and at their arrival in Georgia, near Stone Moun-
tain, they met persons whom Mr. Wagner identified by photograph
as you. Earl Holcombe, and Colbert Raymond McGriff (Bobby
Stephens Exhibit No. 7) .
Mr. Wagner further testified that he accompanied you to a destina-
tion unknown to him, and there he saw you and Mr. Colbert McGriff
load a quantity of dynamite in a milk can in the trunk of a car which
was being operated by Mr. Gilliam. Is Mr. Wagner's testimony in
that regard correct ?
3552 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. HoLCOMBE. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your knowledge, was Mr. James Ven-
able aware of the fact that Mr. Gilliam and Mr. Wagner traveled
to Georgia and received an amount of dynamite from you and from
Mr.McGriff?
Mr. HoLCOMBE. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Wagner further testified that while at a service
station in an unknown area, unknown to him, he also saw persons
whom he identified by photograph as Joseph Howard Sims and
Cecil William Myers (Daniel Wagner Exhibit No. 3, p. 3438). Did
Joseph Howard Sims and Cecil William Myers participate in the giv-
ing of dynamite to Mr. Gilliam and Mr. Wagner ?
Mr. HoLCOMBE. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Holcombe, for what purpose did Mr. Gilliam and
Mr. Wagner receive dynamite ?
Mr. Holcombe. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions to
ask of this witness.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused permanently.
The committee will stand adjourned until 11 o'clock tomorrow
morning.
_( Wliereupon, at 6 :30 p.m., Monday, February 14, 1966, the subcom-
mittee recessed, to reconvene at 11 a.m., Tuesday, February 15,
1966.)
ACTIVITIES OF KIT KLUX KLAN ORGANIZATIONS IN
THE UNITED STATES
Part 5
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 15, 1966
United States House or Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D.G.
public hearings
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities,
as reconstituted for the February 15 hearings, met, pursuant to recess,
at 11 a.m., in the Caucus Room, Cannon House Office Building, Wash-
ington, D.C., Hon. Joe R. Pool (chairman of the subcommittee)
presiding.
(Subcommittee members: Representatives Joe R. Pool, of Texas,
chairman; Charles L. Weltner, of Georgia; and Del Clawson, of
California.)
Subcommittee members present : Representatives Pool and Clawson.
Staff members present: Francis J. McNamara, director; William
Hitz, general counsel; Alfred M. Nittle, counsel; Donald T. Appell,
chief investigator; and Philip R. Manuel, investigator.
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
The Chair wishes to read this letter from the chairman of the com-
mittee :
Febkuaey 14, 1966.
To: Mr. Francis J. McNamara
Director, Committee on Un-American Activities
Pursuant to the provisions of the law and the Rules of this Committee, I
hereby appoint a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities con-
sisting of Honorable Joe R. Pool as Chairman, and Honorable Charles L. Weltner
and Honorable Del Clawson as associate members, to conduct hearings in Wash-
ington, D.C. on Tuesday, February 15, 1966, as contemplated by the resolution
adopted by the Committee on the 30th day of March, 1965, authorizing hearings
concerning the activities of the various Ku Klux Klan organizations in the
United States.
Please make this action a matter of Committee record.
If any member indicates his inability to serve, please notify me.
Given under my hand this 14th day of February, 1966.
/s/ Edwin E. Willis
Edwin E. Wnxis
Chairman, Committee on Un-American Activities
Call your next watness.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, the staff would like to call at this time
Mr. Colbert Raymond McGriff.
3553
3554 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. Raise your rio;ht hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. MoGriff. I do.
TESTIMONY OF COLBERT RAYMOND McGRIFF, JR.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. McGriff, would you state your full name for the
record, sir ?
Mr. McGriff. Colbert Raymond McGriff, Jr.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. McGriff', are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. McGriff. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you so desire counsel at this time ?
Mr. McGriff. No.
Mr. Manuel. Have you been advised as to your legal rights con-
cerning your right to invoke privileges of the fifth amendment ?
Mr. McGriff. I am aware of my rights ; yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. If at any time during the hearing you desire counsel, if
you let the Chair know^, we will stop the proceedings and see about
counsel.
Pull the microphone up to you a little bit.
Mr. Manuel. Have you been provided with the chairman's open-
ing statement, which he made in October of 1965, prior to the start of
this committee's hearings into Ku Klux Klan activities ?
Mr. McGriff. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manltel. Have you read the contents of that statement and are
you familiar with the contents?
Mr. McGriff. I have read it and I am familiar with the contents.
Mr. Manuel. When and w-here were you born ?
Mr. Pool. Speak up a little bit so you can be heard.
Mr. McGriff. I respectfully decline to answer that question for
the reason that I honestly feel my answer might tend to incriminate
me in violation of my rights as guaranteed to me by amendments 5, 1,
4, 9, 10, and 14 of the Constitution of the United States of America
and, furthermore, I decline on the ground that I might jeopardize my
life or my family's life and job.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. McGriff, are you appearing before the committee
this morning in response to a subpena served upon you on the 31st day
of January 1966 at the McGriff Refrigeration and Electric Service at
303 Dusy Street in Dothan, Alabama, by Deputy U.S. Marshal Julian
M.Alford?
Mr. McGriff. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. McGriff, an attachment made part of your
subpena calls upon you to produce in paragraph 1 of that subpena :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of the business and the affairs of the Invisible
Empire, United Klans, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of America, Inc., also
known as the United Klans of America, Inc., Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, and
its affiliated organization, namely, the Alabama Rescue Service, in your posses-
sion, custody or control, or available to you.
Mr. McGriff, I would like to ask you now to produce the documents
called for in paragraph 1 in your subpena.
Mr. McGriff. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3555
Mr. Pool. I order and direct you to produce these documents in
accordance with the terms of the subpena.
Mr. McGriff. I will have to refuse to answer that on the pounds
previously stated.
Mr. Pool. Your reasons are rejected by the committee.
Do you refuse to produce the documents, or do you refuse to answer,
which ?
Mr. McGriff. I respectfully decline to answer that for the reason I
honestly feel my answer might tend to incriminate me in violation of
my rights guaranteed me by amendments 1, 4, 5, 9, 10, and 14 of the
Constitution, which I believe that covers refusing to turn over the
records.
Mr. Pool. Under the subpena that was served upon you, in para-
graph 1, you were directed to produce these documents, books, records,
and so forth, and the Chair now directs you and orders you to produce
these documents called for in paragraph 1 of the subpena, and your
answer is not responsive to the direction the Chair has given you.
Mr. McGriff. I \\i\\ still have to stand on my constitutional rights
and refuse to turn them over.
Mr. Pool. Your constitutional privilege is not applicable to the
production of these records, and the Chair rejects that.
Do you have any further statement to make on your refusal to pro-
duce the records ?
You understand that the direction the Chair gave you was to pro-
duce the records, and it is not an answer we are asking of you. We are
asking you to produce the records and that is what I am directing and
ordering you to do, to produce the records. You are not responsive
to the direction given you. It has nothing to do with answering a
question.
Mr. McGriff. I feel that under my constitutional rights I am not
required to turn the records over as I stated under
Mr. Pool. What constitutional provisions are you invoking?
Mr. McGriff. I am invoking all of them — 1, 4, 5, 9, 10, and 14, any-
thing applicable to the situation.
Mr. Pool. The Chair rejects your answer and orders and directs you
to produce the records called for in the subpena.
Let the record show that the witness refused to produce the records.
Go ahead, Mr. Manuel, and ask your next question.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. McGriff, paragraph 2 of your subpena calls upon
you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of the business and the affairs of the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc., the Vigilantes, the Black Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan, and the Blackshirts, in your possession, custody or control, or
available to you.
I now ask you to produce the documents called for in parargraph 2
of your subpena.
Mr. McGriff. I again will have to stand on my constitutional rights
as I previously stated.
Mr. Pool. I order and direct you to produce these documents as re-
quested by the interrogator and pursuant to the terms of the subpena
in your respective capacity in which you were served in the subpena.
Mr. McGriff. I will still stand on my constitutional rights as I
previously stated.
3556 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. The Chair rejects your answer.
Go ahead, Mi'. Manuel.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. McGriff, have you ever held membership in the
United Klans of America ?
Mr. McGriff. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Have vou ever held membership in the National
Knights of the Ku KluxKlan ?
Mr. McGriff. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Do you possess any knowledge concerning the organi-
zation known as the Black Shirts ?
Mr. McGriff. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, in view of the witness' claim of privi-
lege and his consistent refusal to answer my questions, I present to the
committee the results of our investigation as they pertain to Mr.
McGriff.
Colbert Raymond McGriff, also known as Ray McGriff, was born
on March 30, 1944, near Dothan, Alabama. According to the testimony
of Chief Leo Blackwell and the records of the Griffin, Georgia, Police
Department, Mr. McGriff, along with John Max Mitchell, Allen Lee
Bayne, Oliver Sanders, and Royce Carlyle, were arrested in Griffin,
Georgia, on the charge of burning a cross in front of a cleaning estab-
lishment, owned and operated by a Negro, on April 25, 1964.
Of importance is the fact that police confiscated from two vehicles
used by these men the following weapons: three Eagle .45 semi-auto-
matic carbine rifles, one German-make rifle, two English .88 caliber
pistols, two Smith and Wesson pistols, one Army Colt .45 caliber auto-
matic pistol, one H & R .22 caliber pistol, one .357 caliber pistol, several
hundred rounds of ammunition, two Handle Talkie radios, several
robes, and two signs bearing the name Spaulding Co. No. 25, KKKK.
Along with this material was a small black case belongin<r to Mr.
McGriff giving him the authority to start a UKA, or United Klans of
America Klavern in the city of Dothan, Alabama.
Mr. McGriff and the other men arrested were reported at that time
to be members of the United Klans of America. Shortly after this
incident, Mr. McGriff, along with John Max Mitchell, were known to
have met with a group known as the Vigilantes in the area of Barnes-
ville, Georgia.
This organization, the Vigilantes, was formed in the summer of 1964
in Lamar County, Georeria. Its leadership was composed of former
members of the LTnited Klans of America, Incorporated, Knights of
the Ku KluxKlan.
It is known that leadei*s of this organization have instructed their
members to purchase guns and ammunition.
During the summer of 1964, this group had an average attendance
of 20 to 24 men at their meetings.
During the fall of 1964, the membership declined ; and during the
winter of 1964 and 1965 and the spring of 1965, the membership de-
clined even further, and very few meetings were held.
Early in the summer of 1965, this group obtained a charter in the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Incorporated, and planned to
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3557
operate the Vigilantes as a small action group within the National
Knights of the Kii Klux Klan.
The leaders of this organization are, or were, John Max Mitchell
and Colbert Kaymond McGriff, Jr.
Mr. Pool. Does that complete your statement ?
Mr. Manuel. No, sir. It is known that Cecil William Myers and
Joseph Howard Sims have met with this group in the Barnesville area.
Raymond McGrifl' is known to have served as a member of a degree
team to initiate new members into the National Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan.
He is also known to have traveled to areas in Alabama, including
Centre, Alabama, as an organizer for the National Knights, along with
Earl Holcombe.
Ray McGriff was identified by Daniel Wagner as one of five men,
including Earl Holcombe, Joseph Howard Sims, and Cecil Myers,
whom Wagner and Gilliam met on a trip to Georgia in July 1965 and
from whom they obtained a quantity of dynamite which Wagner and
Gilliam brought back to Ohio.
Mr. McGriff is also known as a leader of a group which calls itself
the Black Knights or Black Shirts. Also in this group are Earl
Holcombe, Marlin Price, Curtis King, Cecil Myers, and Joseph
Howard Sims.
These persons are also known to have been active in the area of
Crawfordville, Georgia, during racial demonstrations in that city
in September and October 1965.
This information, Mr. Chairman, indicates that Mr. McGriff pos-
sesses additional information which is both pertinent and relevant to
this inquiry and would materially aid the Congress in enacting re-
medial legislation.
Mr. Pool. Mr, McGriff, you have heard the sworn statement of the
committee's investigator.
You are now permitted to reply to any portion of this statement, to
confirm or deny the accuracy of the information, or to explain any
part of this statement.
In addition, you may, if you desire, offer any other matter the
committee may deem relevant to the inquiry.
Do you have anything to say ?
Mr. McGriff. No.
Mr. Pool. Mr. McGriff, I must inform you that, absent rebuttal
and other facts that may come to the attention of the committee, this
committee will rely upon the accuracy of its investigation.
Go ahead.
You don't have anything further to say?
Mr. McGriff. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. Go ahead, Mr. Manuel.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. McGriff, I show you a copy of a photograph
which was turned over to the committee by Chief Leo Blackwell of
the Griffin, Georgia, Police Department, and in this photograph is
pictured the weapons which I described just a moment ago.
I would like to show you a copy of this photograph and ask you to
advise the committee where these weapons were obtained.
(Photograph handed to witness.)
59-222 O— 67— pt. 5 ^6
3558 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. McGriff. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
(Photograph previously marked "Leo Blackwell Exhibit No. 1." See
committee report, The Present-Day Ku Khix Klan Movement^ j). 110.)
Mr. Manuel. What portion of these weapons, Mr. McGriff, be-
longed to you on April 25, 1964?
Mr. McGriff. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. McGriff, did you, in July of 1965, provide a
quantity of dynamite to Daniel Wagner and Verlin Gilliam?
Mr. McGriff. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. What contact did you or Mr. Earl Holcombe have
with Mr. Gilliam prior to his trip to Georgia ?
Mr. McGriff. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Manuel, what is his age?
Mr. Manuel. Mr. McGriff was born March 30, 1944, Mr. Chairman
Mr. Pool. That would make him 22 years old.
Mr. Manuel. It would make him 22 years old the 30th of March o^
this year.
Mr. Pool. Is he married?
Mr. Manuel. Our records do not reflect whether he is married or
not.
Mr. Pool. Do you care to answer the question? Are you married?
Mr. McGriff. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. McGriff, Mr. Wagner in his statement which he
gave to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which was from memory,
stated that he, in the comany of Verlin Gilliam, yourself, Earl Donald
Holcombe, and Marlin Price, proceeded to a gas station, the identity
of which and the location of which was unknown to him.
I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny the fact,
that that is an Amoco gas station located in the area of Bamesville,
Georgia ?
Mr. McGriff. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that from this gas station you, in the company of Mr. Hol-
combe, Mr. Price, Mr. Gilliam, and Mr. Wagner, proceeded to a farm
owned by John Max Mitchell where the dynamite was transferred to
Mr. Gilliam's car ?
Mr. McGriff. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Do you possess any knowledge, Mr. McGriff, of other
dynamite or weapons located and stored on the farm of John Max
Mitchell in the vicinity of Barnesville, Georgia ?
Mr. McGriff. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. McGriff, have you acted as an organizer for the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. McGriff. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3559
Mr. Manuel. I put it to you as a fact, and a>sk you to affirm or deny
the fact, that you have acted as an organizer for that organization and
helped organize a Klavem in the area of Centre, Alabama?
Mr. McGriff. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever acted as a member of a degree team
which initiates national members into the National Knights of the Ku
KluxKlan?
Mr. McGriff. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that you have so acted as a member of the National Knights
degree team in the State of Ohio during the summer of 1965 ?
Mr. McGriff. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. McGriff, were you active or did you travel to the
area of Crawfordville, Georgia, during the months of September and
October 1965, to take part in racial demonstrations in that city?
Mr. McGriff. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Do you possess any knowledge as to whether you and
other members of your group were ordered to go there by any Klan
official ?
Mr. McGriff. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. I put it to you as fact that you and Mr. Earl Hol-
combe, Mr. Joseph Howard Sims, Mr. Cecil Myers, among others
were present in the area of Crawfordville, Georgia, and did agitate
in the racial demonstrations which were held in thati city ?
Mr. McGriff. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. McGriff, I hand you a copy of a story which was
printed in the Baltimore Sun on October 20, 1965, headed "Negroes
Seek Talks With 2 Georgians.''
In the last paragraphs of this particular article, there is quoted the
following paragraph :
Seven white men arrested in a racial incident here were free under bonds of
$250 each, including two who were tried and acquitted in the slaying of a Negro
educator in north Georgia last year.
Sheriff M. B. Moore said the men, members of a Ku Klux Klan group known
as "Black Shirts" were charged with pointing a gun at another.
Kenneth Goolsby, Solicitor General, identified them as Cecil Myers and Joseph
Howard Sims, both of Athens, who were acquitted in the slaying of Lemuel Penn,
of Washington. The others were identified as John Mitchell, Albert Ray McGriff,
Jr., Earl Holcombe, Bobby Gene Myers and Franklin D. Myers.
The Sheriff said they were also charged with forcing George Turner, a Negro,
off the highway Sunday and pointing shotguns and pistols at him.
I show you this article, Mr. McGriff, and call your attention to the
paragraphs which I have just read and ask you to advise the committee
as to whether you are the "Albert Ray McGriff, Jr.," identified in that
article ?
Mr. McGriff. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated,
(Document marked "Colbert McGriff Exhibit No. 1" and retained
in committee files. )
3560 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. McGriff, have you engaged in the shipping of
dynamite to other parts of the United States from the State of
Georgia ?
Mr. McGriff. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Do you possess knowledge as to the source of dynamite
which is in the possession of Mr. Mitchell and has been seen by IMr.
Holcombe, Mr. Myers, Mr. Sims, Mr. Price, and yourself?
Mr. McGriff. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions of
this witness.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused permanently.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, the staff would like to call at this time
Mr. Marlin Price.
Mr. Pool. Raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the
ti-uth, the whole tinith, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Price. Yeah.
TESTIMONY OF IVTAEXIN PRICE
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Price, would you state your full name for the
record, sir ?
Mr. Price. Marlin Price.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Price, are you represented by counsel?
Mr. Price. No.
Mr. Manuel. At this time I would like to ask you whether you
desire counsel ?
Mr. Price. No.
Mr. Manuel. Have you had the advice of counsel prior to your
appearance before the committee?
Mr. Price. [Shakes head.]
Mr. Manuel. I would like to tell you any time you desire counsel
you can communicate that to the committee and an effort will be made
to secure counsel for you.
Do you understand that, sir ?
Mr. Price. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Have you been advised as to your rights under the
fifth amendment of the Constitution of the United States protecting
you from possible self-incrimination?
Mr. Price. Sure have.
Mr. Manuel. Have you also been furnished a copy of the chair-
man's opening statement made in October of 1965, prior to the start
of hearings into Ku Klux Klan activities ?
Mr. Price. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Have you read that statement, Mr. Price, and are
you familiar with its contents ?
Mr. Price. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer that question for the reason that I
honestly feel my answer might tend to incriminate me in violation
of my rights as guaranteed to me by amendments 5, 1, 4, 9, 10, and
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3561
the 14th of the Constitution of the United States of America and,
furthermore, I decline on the ground that I might jeopardize my life
or my family's life and job.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Manuel, how old is the witness ?
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no knowledge as to Mr.
Price's date and place of birth.
Mr. Pool. Or whether he is married or not ?
Mr. Manuel. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. How old are you ?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. Are you married ?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. Go ahead, Mr. Manuel.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Price, are you appearing before the committee
this morning in response to a subpena which was served upon you on
the 28th day of January 1966 by W. J. Andrews, U.S. marshal, at
92 Brighton Street, Atlanta, Georgia ?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Have you received a copy of this subpena ? In other
words, you are appearing here today in response to this subpena. That
was just my question.
Mr. Price. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Price, an attachment was made part of this sub-
pena which calls upon you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to
the organization of and the conduct of the business and the affairs of the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc., the Vigilantes, the Black Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan and the Blackshirts, in your possession, custody or
control, or available to you.
I ask you now, sir, to produce the documents called for in that
particular paragraph.
Mr. Price. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. I am not really asking you a question.
I am asking you to produce certain documents. So in that con-
text would you respond to the committee ?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer that question for the reason that I
lionestly feel my answer might tend to incrhninate me in violation
of my rights guaranteed to me by the amendments 5, 1, 4, 9, 10, and
the 14th of the Constitution of the United States of America.
Mr. Pool. He did not ask you a question. He asked you to produce
a record.
Mr. Price. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Pool. You are not responsive to the question.
Do you, or do you not, decline to produce the records ?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. I order and direct you to produce these documents.
Mr. Price. I decline to answer
*Mr. "Pool. Wait just a minute. It has been requested by this inter-
rogator, pursuant to the terms of the subpena, and I order you to
3562 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
produce these documents called for therein in the representative
capacity stated in the subpena.
Mr. Price. Do what?
Mr. Pool. In the representative capacity stated in the subpena, I
order and direct you to produce these documents.
Mr. Price. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. You decline to produce the documents on the grounds
previously stated. Is that correct ?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer that question for the reason that I
honestly feel that my answer might tend to incriminate me in viola-
tion of my rights as guaranteed to me by amendments 5, 1, 4, 9, 10, and
14 of the Constitution of the United States of America.
Mr. Pool. Let the record show that the witness refused to produce
the documents on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Do you have anything further to say to that ?
Mr. Price. No.
Mr. Pool. I order and direct you for the last time to produce the
documents called for.
Mr. Price. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously state.
Mr. Pool. Your reasons are rejected by the committee.
Proceed, Mr. Manuel.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Price, have you ever been a member of the Na-
tional Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever been a member of an organization
known as the Black Shirts ?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Do you possess any knowledge with regard to the
organization known as the Black Shirts ?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, in view of the witness' claim of
privilege and his consistent refusal to answer my questions, I present
to the committee the results of our investigation as they pertain to
Mr. Price.
Mr. Price is known to have been initiated into membership of the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan at a meeting of Chapter 3 of
the National Knights in Allen's trailer court in College Park, Georgia.
Since that time, Mr. Price is known to have attended meetings of
Chapter 3 of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan at Allen's
trailer court in College Park, Georgia, and also at the meeting place
of this organization, w^hich was on the second floor of an office building
in College Park, Georgia, the first floor of which is occupied by the
Liberty Loan Company.
Also in attendance at meetings of Chapter 3 with Mr. Price at vari-
ous times were Earl Holcombe, Ray McGriff, and Curtis King. Mr.
Price is known to have been in the group which provided dynamite
to Verlin Gilliam and Daniel Wagner in July of 1965.
Also in this group were Mr. Earl Holcombe, Ray McGriff, Cecil
Myers, and Joseph Howard Sims.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3563
Mr. Chairman, this information indicates that Mr. Price possesses
additional information which is both pertinent and relevant to this in-
quiry and would materially aid the Congress in enacting remedial leg-
islation.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Price, you have heard the sworn statement of the
committee's investigator.
You now have the opportunity to reply to any portion of that state-
ment or confirm or challenge the accuracy of this information or to
explain any part of that statement. In addition, you may, if you de-
sire, offer any other matter the committee may deem relevant to this
inquiry.
Do you have any statement to make ?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. I must inform you that absent your rebuttal or other
facts that may come to the attention of this committee, this committee
will rely upon the accuracy of its investigation.
Mr. Price. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Price, the committee mvestigation has determined
that in July of 1965 Mr. Verlin Gilliam and Mr. Daniel Wagner
traveled from the State of Ohio to the State of Georgia, at which place
they met you, Mr. Earl Holcombe, and Mr. Ray McGriff in an area
near Stone Mountain, Georgia, and then proceeded to the area of
Barnesville, Georgia, where you stopped over for a short length of
time at an Amoco service station located in Barnesville, Georgia.
I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny the fact, that
this service station was an Amoco station in the area of Barnesville.,
Georgia ?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr, Manuel. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that this station is operated at various times, or has been
operated at various times, by Mr. Earl Holcombe and Mr. Cecil Wil-
liam Myers?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that from that service station you, in the company of Mr.
Verlin Gilliam, Mr. Daniel Wagner, Mr. Earl Holcombe, Mr. Ray
McGriff, traveled to a farm owned by John Max Mitchell, where a
quantity of dynamite was placed in a milk can and loaded onto a car
in which Mr. Gilliam and Mr. Wagner were traveling?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. For the information of the witness, the facts that he is
stating here, he is stating as facts, and he is under oath himself, the
investigator is, and you have your chance to deny or affirm these facts
or whatever you want to say.
What is your answer again?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer on tlie grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Price, do you possess any knowledge of additional
shipments of dynamite from the area of Barnesville, Georgia, to any
other place in the country?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Could you inform the committee as to the source of
dynamite which has been stored on the farm of John Max Mitchell
in the area of Barnesville, Georgia?
3564 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Price. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know John Max Mitchell to be a member of
the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Price. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions of
this particular witness.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused permanently.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Manuel. The staff would like to call at this time, Mr. Chair-
man, Mr. John Max Mitchell.
Mr. Pool. Raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Mitchell. I affirm.
Mr. Pool. You affirm that the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. You so affirm ?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN MAX MITCHELL
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Mitchell, would you please state your full name
for the record, sir?
Mr. Mitchell. John Max Mitchell.
Mr. Manuel. Are you represented by counsel, Mr. Mitchell ?
Mr. Mitchell. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. At this time I would like to ask you whether you
desire counsel?
Mr. Mitchell. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Have you been advised by counsel prior to your ap-
pearance before the committee?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Are you aware, Mr. Mitchell, of your rights under
the fifth amendment of the Constitution that you have a right to refuse
to answ^er a question on the grounds of possible self-incrimination?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Are you also aware, Mr. Mitchell, that at any time
during your testimony, if you so desire counsel, you can communi-
cate that to the committee and arrangements will be made for you to
obtain counsel?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes, sir.
Mr, Manuel. Mr. Mitchell, have you been provided with a copy of
Chairman Willis' opening statement of October 1965, prior to the
public hearings into activities of Ku Klux Klan organizations?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Have you read that document, Mr. Mitchell, and are
you familiar with its contents?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Mitchell, when and Avhere were you born, sir?
Mr. Mitchell. I respectfully decline to answer that question for
the reason that I honestly feel my answer might tend to incriminate me
in violations of my rights as guaranteed to me by amendments 1, 4,
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3565
5, 9, 10, and 14 of the Constitution of the United States of America
and, furthermore, I decline on the ground that it miglit jeopardize my
life, my family's life, and my job.
Mr. Maxuel. Mr. Mitchell, have you ever held membership in the
United Klans of America ?
Mr. Mitchell. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever held membership in the National
Knights or the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Mitchell. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. ^NIaxi'el. Have you ever been a member of an organization
known as the Black Knights or the Black Shirts?
Mr. Mitchell. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Mitchell, are you appearing before the committee
this morning in response to a subpena served upon you on the 3d day
of February 1966 by U.S. Deputy Marshal J. C. Burns at E.F.D.,
Barnesville, Georgia ?
Mr. Mitchell. I am responding — I am here in response to a sub-
pena served by that marshal.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Mitchell, an attachment was made part of your
subpena, paragraph 1 of which calls for you to produce:
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to
the organization of and the conduct of the business and the affairs of the In-
visible Empire, United Klans, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of America, Inc.,
also known as the United Klans of America, Inc., Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan, and its affiliated organization, namely, the Alabama Rescue Service, in
your possession, custody or control, or available to you.
I ask you now, sir, to produce the documents called for in paragraph
1 of your subpena.
Mr. Mitchell. I have no such documents.
Mr. Pool. Have you ever had any documents ?
Mr. Mitchell. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever destroyed— —
Mr. Pool. Just a minute, Mr. Manuel.
The subpena calls for you to produce these documents. Do you
state now that you do not have these documents in your possession?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. Did you have the documents at any time after the subpena
was served on you ?
Mr. Mitchell. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. You did not have them at any time after the subpena
Avas served upon you ?
Mr. Mitchell. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. And you refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment as to whether or not you had them previously?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes.
Mr. Pool. Who did have the documents?
Mr. Mitchell. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Pool. Who has the documents now?
3566 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Mitchell. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated,
Mr. Pool. Have you liad these documents at any time since March 30,
1965, when these hearings were first announced?
Mr. Mitchell. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Pool. Go ahead, Mr. Manuel.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Mitchell, paragraph 2 of your subpena calls upon
you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of the business and the affairs of the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc., the Vigilantes, the Black Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan and the Blackshirts, in your possession, custody or control, or avail
able to you.
I ask you at this time, Mr. Mitchell, to produce the documents called
for in paragraph 2 of your subpena.
Mr. Mitchell. I have no such documents.
Mr. Pool. Have you ever had these documents at any time since
March 30, 1965, at the time these hearings were first announced?
Mr. Mitchell. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. Next question, Mr. Manuel.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Mitchell, do you presently hold membership in an
organization known as the Black Shirts ?
Mr. Mitchell. I refuse to answer that question on the ground pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Mitchell, do you ]30ssess any knowledge concern-
ing the obtaining and storing and dissemination of dynamite by
individuals known by you to be members of a Ku Klux Klan
organization ?
Mr. Mitchell. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, in view of the witness' claim of
privilege and his consistent refusal to answer my questions, I present
to the committee the results of our investigation as they pertain to Mr.
Mitchell.
Mr. Pool. This is a sworn statement by you; is that right?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir ; I am aware of that.
John Max Mitchell, as a member of the United Klans of America,
was arrested with Raymond McGriff and others on April 25, 1964, in
Griffin, Georgia, for burning a cross on the business property of a
Negro.
During the course of this arrest, an arsenal of weapons was confis-
cated by Griffin police. This arsenal of Aveapons has previously been
described in the testimony of Chief of Police Leo Blackwell and also
the testimony of Colbert JRaymond McGriff.
After this arrest, Mitchell is known to have been a leader and an
active member of a group known as the Vigilantes, w^hich met in the
vicinity of Barnesville, Georgia,
Sometime in 1965, members of this irroup received a charter from
the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, and Mitchell is known to
have been a member of the National Knights at this time.
Mitchell is also a member of a group known as the Black Shirts and
he is known to have been active in the racial demonstrations which
took place in the area of Crawfordville, Georgia, in September and
October 1965.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3567
Committee investigation has established that in July 1965 Mr. Verlin
Gilliam and Mr. Daniel Wagner traveled to the State of Georgia and,
after having met with Mr. Colbert Raymond McGriff, Mr. Marlin
Price, and Mr. Earl Holcombe, they traveled to Barnesville, Georgia.
And after a short stay at an Amoco service station in Barnesville,
Georgia, they traveled to a farm owned by John Max Mitchell, where
they obtained in a milk can a quantity of dynamite which was loaded
into the trunk of the car operated by Mr. Gilliam.
Mr. Chairman, this information indicates that Mr. Mitchell possesses
additional information which is both pertinent and relevant to this
inquiry and would materially aid the Congress in enacting remedial
legislation.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Mitchell, you have heard the sworn statement of the
committee investigator. You now have an opportunity to challenge
that statement or confirm or deny any part of that statement. In addi-
tion, you may offer any other matter that the committee may deem
relevant to this inquiry.
Mr. Mitchell. I would like for permission to read that statement
myself.
Mr. Pool. You would like what ?
Mr. Mitchell. Permission to read that statement.
Mr. Pool. Do you want him to read it back to you ?
Mr. Manuel. Have the reporter read it back.
(The record was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Pool. Go ahead.
Mr. Mitchell. Part of that statement up to July, I decline to answer
on the grounds previously stated.
After July, Mr. Gilliam and the rest, if they did so, they did so with-
out my knowledge.
Mr. Pool. They did what ?
Mr. Mitchell. They did what the statement says without my knowl-
edge, if they did so. There is not now, and never has been, any dyna-
mite on my property, to my knowledge.
Mr. Manuel. Do you possess any knowledge, Mr. Mitchell, if this
dynamite, as you state, is not stored on your property, where dynamite
is stored by members of the Barnesville Unit ?
Mr. Mitchell. I have no knowledge of such.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever seen any dynamite or taken part in any
dynamite demonstrations ?
Mr. Mitchell. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Mitchell, do you know where this dynamite was
stored or who has possession of it ?
Mr. Mitchell. I have no knowledge of any dynamite.
Mr. Pool. Do you have anything further to add to the information
of this committee?
Mr. Mitchell. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. Did the men mentioned in the statement go to the farm
on that date?
Mr. Mitchell. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Pool. Were you at the farm on that date ?
Mr. Mitchell. I don't know.
Mr. Pool, You don't know ? Is that your answer, you do not know ?
Mr. Mitchell, I am not positive.
3568 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. Do you have cany further questions, Mr. Manuel?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mitchell, have you ever met Mr. Verlin Gilliam ?
Mr. Mitchell. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know, as a matter of fact, that Mr. Gilliam
and Mr. Wagner obtained a quantity of dynamite ?
Mr. Mitchell. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Pool. You opened this up, Mr. Witness. Have you had any
experience with dynamite whatsoever?
Mr. Mitchell. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Pool. Have you ever purchased any dynamite ?
Mr. Mitchell. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. Have you ever transported any dynamite across State
lines ?
Mr. Mitchell. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. But your statement is that you did not have this dynamite
in this statement stored on your farm ; is that correct ?
Mr. Mitchell. That is correct.
Mr. Pool. Go ahead, Mr. Manuel.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Mitchell, to your knowledge, was any dynamite
ever transported to your farm from some other source and your ij.rm
used then not as a storage area, but as a place from which dynamite
was transported?
Mr. Mitchell. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Pool. Did you ever deny anybody the use of your farm to store
dynamite ?
Mr. Mitchell. Never denied it or affirmed it.
Mr. Pool. I didn't get your answer.
Mr. Mitchell. I never denied or affirmed anybody use.
Mr. Pool. Nobody asked you, then ?
Mr. Mitchell. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Mitchell, I would like to show you a copy of a
photograpli of the arsenal of weapons wliich was taken by the Griffin,
Georgia, Police Department, on April 25, 1964, from a group of
members of the United Klans of America, including yourself, and in
showing you this photograph, I ask you to advise the committee, to
your knowledge, where these weapons came from.
Mr. IMiTciiELL. I decline to answer on tlie grounds previously stated.
(Photograph previously marked "T^o Blackwell Exhibit No. 1.")
Mr. Manuel. Chief Blackwell of the Griffin, Georgia, Police De-
partment, testified that after these weapons w^ere stored in the county
courthouse for a period of time they were released, ordered released
to the owners.
I ask you, Mr. Mitchell, since that release, what has happened to
these weapons ?
Mr. MiTciiii.L. I decline to answer ou the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. Do you have any knowledge of transfer of dynamite to
these people?
Mr. Mitchell. No, sir.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3569
Mr. Pool. Your statement, then, is that you do not know of any
transfer of any dynamite ?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes, sir.
• Mr. Pool. You are totally unfamiliar with the dynamite
transaction ?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. The arms, you decline to answer on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Mitchell. Decline to answer.
Mr. Pool. Do you have any other questions, Mr. Manuel?
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Mitchell, would you advise the committee as to
the purpose and organization of the Black Shirts?
Mr. Mitchell. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manlt^ll. Would you identify for the committee the leadership
of the Black Shirts?
Mr. Mitchell. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Mitchell, I show you a copy of a story that ap-
peared in the Baltimore Sun on October 20, 1965, headed "Negroes
Seek Talks with 2 Georgians," and the last few paragraphs of this
story are as follows:
Seven white men arrested in a racial incident here were free under bonds of
$250 each, including: two who were tried and acquitted in the slaying of a Negro
educator in north Georgia last year.
Sheriff M. B. Moore said the men, members of a Ku Klux Klan group known
as "Black Shirts" were charged with pointing a gun at another.
Kenneth Goolsby, Solicitor General, identified them as Cecil Myers and Joseph
Howard Sims, both of Athens, who were acquitted in the slaying of Lemuel Penn,
of Washington. The others were identified as John Mitchell, Albert Ray McGriff,
Jr., Earl Holcombe, Bobby Gene Myers and Franklin D. Myers.
The Sheriff said they were also charged with forcing George Turner, a Negro,
off the highway Sunday and pointing shotguns and pistols at him.
I show you a copy of this article, Mr. Mitchell, and I invite your
inspection of the paragraphs which I have just read and ask you to
advise the committee as to whether you are the John Mitchell referred
to in that article.
Mr. Mitchell. I decline to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
(Document previously marked "Colbert McGriff Exhibit No. 1.")
Mr. Manuel. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused permanently.
The Chair wishes to announce that one of my dear colleagues from
Texas, Albert Thomas, passed aw^ay this morning, and the members
of the Texas delegation and other Congressmen are eulogizing Con-
gressman Thomas on the floor, so we are going to adjourn at this time
until 2 o'clock.
(Subcommittee members present at time of recess: Representatives
Pool and Clawson.)
(Wliereupon, at 12 o'clock noon, Tuesday, February 15, 1966, the
subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 2 p.m. the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 15, 1966
(The subcommittee reconvened at 2 p.m., Hon. Joe R. Pool,
chairman of the subcommittee, presiding.)
(Subcommittee members present: Representatives Pool and
Clawson.)
3570 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Manuel, call your next witness.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, the staft' would like to call at this time
Mr. Curtis King.
Mr. Pool. Raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. King. I affirm.
Mr. Pool. You affirm that the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. You so
affirm?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF CURTIS ALVIN KING
Mr. Manuel. Mr. King, would you please state your full name for
the record, please ?
Mr. King. Curtis Alvin King.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. King, are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. King. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. At this time I would like to ask you whether you
desire counsel during your testimony ?
Mr. King. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. King, have you received the advice of counsel
prior to your appearance before the committee ?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Are you aware that, under the Constitution of the
United States and under the fifth amendment of the Constitution, you
have the right to refuse to answ^er a question which you believe would
incriminate you ?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. King, have you been provided a copy of Chair-
man Willis' opening statement of October 1965, prior to the hearings
of this committee into the activities of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Have you read that statement, Mr. King, and are
you familiar with its contents ?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. King, would you please advise the committee
when and where you were born ?
Mr. King. I respectfully decline to answer that question for the
reason that I honestly feel my answer might tend to incriminate me
in violation of my rights as guaranteed to me by the amendments 5, 1,
4, 9, 10, and 14 of the Constitution of the United States of America
and, furthermore, I decline on the ground that it might jeopardize my
life, my family, and my job.
Mr. Pool. You say that it might jeopardize your life, your family,
and your job.
Have you been threatened, Mr. King?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. I was just going to say that the Federal law provides pro-
tection for subpenaed witnesses, and this applies for about 5 years, so
you have no fear of reprisal being taken on.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. King, have you ever held membership in the Na-
tional Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3571
Mr. King. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever held membership in an organization
known as the Black Shirts ?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Have you, as a member of the National Knights of
tlie Ku Klux Klan, helped organize a Klavern or a unit of that orga-
nization in the city of Centre, Alabama ^
Mr. King. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. King, are you appearing before the committee
today in response to a subpena served upon you on the 7th day of
February 1966 at 2520 Jonesboro Eoad, Southeast, Aliens Trailer
Park No. C-17, Atlanta, Georgia, by W. J. Andrews, United States
marshal ?
Mr. King. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. King, an attachment, which was made part of
you subpena, orders and directs you to produce in paragraph 2:
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of the business and the affairs of the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc., the Vigilantes, the Black Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan, and the Blackshirts, in your possession, custody or control, or
available to you.
I ask you now, sir, to produce the documents called for in that
paragraph.
Mr. King. I respectfully decline to answer that question for the
reason that I honestly feel my answer might tend to incriminate me in
violation of my rights as guaranteed to me by amendments 5, 1, 4, 9,
10, and 14 of the Constitution of the United States of America.
Mr. Manuel. In order to avoid some misunderstanding on our parts
here, I did not ask you a question.
I asked you to produce certain documents outlined in your subpena.
Mr. King. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. You refuse to produce the documents on the grounds that
you stated ? Is that right ?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have given for your refusal to produce
the documents called for by this subpena do not legally justify your
refusal and these reasons are rejected.
I order and direct you to produce these documents requested by the
interrogator pursuant to the terms of the subpena and in the repre-
sentative capacity stated in the subpena.
Mr. King. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. Your reasons are rejected.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. King, have you, as a member of a Klan group,
participated in any acts of racial disturbance or agitation in the area
of Crawfordville, Georgia, in the months of September and October
1965?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, in view of the witness' claim of
privilege and his consistent refusal to answer my questions, I present to
the committee the results of our investigation as they pertain to Mr.
King.
Curtis King has held membership in the National Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan and has attended meetings of Chapter 3 of that orga-
nization at least at Allen's trailer court in College Park, Georgia.
3572 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. King is also known to have been a leader and an organizer of a
group of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Avhich meets in
the area of Centre, Alabama, and uses Post Office Box 434.
Mr. King is known to have brought Centre members of the Centre,
Alabama, Unit to the area of Crawfordville, Georgia, during racial
demonstrations in that city during the months of September and
October of 1965.
This information indicates that Mr. King possesses additional infor-
mation that is both pertinent and relevant to this inquiry and would
materially aid the Congress in enacting remedial legislation.
Mr. Pool. Mr. King, you have heard the sworn statement of the
committee investigator and you now have the opportunity to reply to
any portion of that statement, confirm or challenge the accuracy of
any portion of the statement, and to explain any part of the statement.
In addition, you may, if you so desire, offer any other matter that the
committee may deem pertinent to the inquiry.
Do you have any further statement ?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. Mr. King, I must inform you that, absent your rebuttal
or other facts that may come to our attention, this committee will rely
upon the accuracy of its investigation.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. King, have you ever discussed operations of the
group known as the Black Shirts with Mr. Earl Holcombe or Mr. Ray
McGriff?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know Joseph Howard Sims to be a member
of the Black Shirts?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know^ Mr. Cecil William Myers to be a mem-
ber of the Black Shirts?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Manuel. "Would you please identify for the committee the
other leadership of the Klavern which is located in Centre, Alabama,
of the National Knights?
Mr. King. I refuse to answer on the grounds I previously stated,
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions of
Mr. King.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused permanently.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, I would like to call at this time Mr.
James R. Venable.
Mr. Pool. Raise your right hand. .
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. VENABLE
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, would you please state your full name
for the record, sir ?
Mr. Venable. James R. Venable.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, what is your occupation ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3573
Mr. Pool. Mr. Venable, I believe you are an attorney; is that
correct ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. You do not care to have counsel ?
Mr. Vex ABLE. No, I guess I have a fool for a client. I represent
my own self.
Mr. Pool. You do not care for a counsel ?
Mr. Vexable. I am familiar with the rules.
Mr. Pool. If at any time durincr the investigation you desire to
confer with other counsel, just advise the Chair and we will be
glad to provide the time for that.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, have you been provided with a copy of
the chairman's opening statement ?
Mr. Vexable. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. Maxuel. Have you read that statement and are you familiar
with its contents?
Mr. Vexable. I have read it ; yes, sir.
Mr. Maxuel. Are you familiar with its contents ?
Mr. Vex\\ble. Yes, I am familiar vith it.
Mr. Maxuel. Mr. Venable, where do you currently reside ?
Mr. Venable. 900 V.F.W. Drive, Stone Mountain, Georgia.
Mr. Manuel. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Venable. DeKalb County, Georgia.
Mr. Mi\NUEL. What was tlie date of your birth ?
Mr. Vexable. January 15, 1905.
Mr. Manuel. You have already stated that your occupation is that
of attorney?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee, please, where you
maintain law offices ?
Mr. Vexable. Well, I got an office at Walter E. Brown Building,
Atlanta 3. It is the corner of Hunter and Pryor Streets in Fulton
County, Atlanta, Georgia.
I also got one out in Tucker, Georgia, in DeKalb County. I believe
that number classified for mailing is 4701 Lawrenceville Highway.
Mr. Maxuel. Mr. Venable, would you please give the committee a
brief resume of your educational background ?
Mr. Vexable. I am a high school graduate and I finished Atlanta
Law School, and I believe in 1930, finished old Tech High School at
Marietta Street and Luckie Street in 1923.
Mr. Manuel. AVlien did you receive your law degree, Mr. Venable?
Mr. Vexable. I believe June 1930.
Mr. jNIaxuel. Have you been a practicing attorney since that date?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, have you ever been a member of the
Ku Klux Klan organization ?
Mr. Venable. I have ; yes, sir, since 1924.
Mr. Manuel. You first joined the Klan in 1924 ?
Mr. Venable. 1924.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee what Klan organiza-
tion?
Mr. Venable. Dr. Evans, at that time, was head of it.
59-222 O — 67— pt. 5-
3574 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. Was that the Knights of the Ku Khix Klan ?
Mr. Venable. I believe tliey called it the Ku Klux Klan or maybe
the Invisible Empire, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. I believe it was
chartered in Georgia in 1916.
Mr. Mani'el. How long did you remain a member of that group?
Mr. Venable. I have been a member of that group up imtil that
charter was dissolved, or I think they abandoned it.
Mr. Manuel. What was the date of that dissolution ?
Mr. Venable. That year, I am not certain.
Then I Avas a member of the Ku Klux Klan when the Imperial
Wizard, Colescott, was there, and Dr. Evans, and I believe I was also
a member when it was continued on, I believe the Associated Klans of
Georgia of which Dr. Green was the Imperial Wizard or the Grand
Dragon.
I was not an active member. I was just what they call a card-
carrying member.
Mr. Manuel. Did you hold any office or position within the first
Ku Klux Klan group that you belonged to which you stated you
joined in 1924?
Mr. Venable. No, I never held any office, just as a Klansman, no
office, just as a member.
Mr. Manuel. Did you have any office in the Association of Georgia
Klans?
Mr. Venable. Never had any office in that Klan.
Mr. Manuel. How long were you a member of that particular
Klan?
Mr. Venable. I was a member of that Klan when Dr. Green died
and I think it was succeeded either by Mr. Roper, I believe, and I be-
lieve a fellow by the name of Klein was with it, too. I believe his
nickname was Chuck Klein.^
Mr. Manuel. With what Klavem were you associated in the Asso-
ciation of Georgia Klans?
Mr. Venable. Well, I went down to Lithonia, Georgia, and I also
used to meet at 91. They called it Old Klan 91. That was the old
Nathan Forrest Klan that met on Central Avenue.
Mr. Manuel. After your membership in the Association of Georgia
Klans, did you hold membership in any other Klan organization?
Mr. Venable. Well, I held membership in the Klan as I believe or-
ganized and chartered Eldon Edwards' Klan. I believe it was chart-
ered probably in 1957.
Mr. Manuel. "Wliat w^as the name of that Klan ?
Mr. Venable. I think they called that the U.S. Klans, Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan, Incorporated. I belive that was the name of it.
Mr. Manuel. How long did you hold membership in that organiza-
tion?
Mr. Venable. I held membership in that organization for several
years while Mr. Edwards was Imperial Wizard of it. After his death
a man by the name of Bill Davidson succeeded him. Then Davidson
resigned. Then I believe Mr. Earl George headed it then.
Mr. Manuel. Did you hold any official position or title in the U.S.
Klan?
1 Charles Klein.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3575
Mr. Venable. Other than just as Imperial Klonsel, the attorney.
I gave them advice and occasionally would represent them in legal
matters.
Mr. Mantjel. Did the U.S. Klans have an Imperial Board?
Mr. Venable. Yes, they had an Imperial Board.
Mr. Manuel. As the Imperial Klonsel, were you a member of the
Imperial Board?
Mr. Venable. Yes, I was a member of it, but I didn't participate in
it, very seldom in the meetings, unless they requested my appearance
on some legal matter,
Mr. Manuel. After you left membership in the U.S. Klans, did you
hold membership in any other Klan organization ?
Mr. Venable. Well, the U.S. split up. Davidson resigned and Mr.
George had it, and then I continued in that Klan, and that Klan
finally, you might say, split up the second time.
I continued my membership in that. I believe there was another
Klan organization that was started up and I was a member of that.
I held membership in the old U.S. and I held a membership in the
new Klan. For short it was called the United Klan headed by Mr.
Shelton.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee what period of time
you held membership in the United Klan ?
Mr. Venable. I don't have records of the dates. I represented them
in some legal matters occasionally and I was known as the Imperial
Klonsel with no salary attached.
Mr. Manuel. From your testimony, you did have the title of Im-
perial Klonsel.
Mr. Venable. Yes, just a short while. I didn't stay in that Klan
too long, you know.
Mr. Manuel. As memory serves you, Mr. Venable, could you give
the committee the dates of your service as Imperial Klonsel ?
Mr. Venable. I just couldn't give you the dates. I mean, I kept
no record of it. It was not a job that paid a salary, you know, and I
would say maybe 2 years, a year, something like that.
Mr. Manuel. As the Imperial Klonsel, did you sit on the Imperial
Board?
Mr. Venable. Occasionally I sat ; you know, when they needed legal
advice I would sit with them.
Mr. Manuel. Why did you leave your position as Imperial Klonsel
for United Klans of America ?
Mr. Venable. Well, friction arose. I was friendly to Mr. George.
I have always tried to be a friend to all of them. After becoming a
member of that Board, they started what they called you might say,
an association, where different group Klans, and I believe United was
a member of that, and it started meeting among the various Klan lead-
ership.
Mr. Manuel. When did this association start, Mr. Venable ?
Mr. Venable. The first time I ever attended one, I believe as I re-
call, maybe 1957. I was not a delegate. I was invited there as a
guest — maybe 1957 or 1958, somewhere in along there.
Mr. Manuel. In 1957, the United Klans of America had not been
established then.
3576 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Venable. It must have been the old U.S. They was a part of
it. I believe the first time Mr. William Hugh Morris invited me I
allowed them to meet with me. They met at the hotel Saturday night.
I don't recall the date.
Mr. Manuel. At the time of your first meeting with the National
Association of Klan groups, what Klans were members of the associa-
tion?
Mr. Venable. Well, at that time I believe a portion maybe of Flor-
ida Klans — I didn't know the names. I was not a member, you know,
of that association at that time, and maybe some of the Georgia Klans
and maybe some of the South Carolina Klans, and maybe some of the,
as I recall, maybe Arkansas.
Mr. Manuel. Does this Association of Klans exist today ?
Mr. Venable. Well, a portion of it exists today ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you hold any title or position in that association ?
Mr. Venable. I am what we call a temporary chairman. I am only
elected temporarily for a year.
Mr. ML\NUEL. How long have you held that position ?
Mr. Venable. — and I have no vote as a chairman.
Mr. Manuel. How long have you held that office, Mr. Venable?
Mr. Venable. I mean as temporary chairman, I am only elected for
a year — probably about 3 years. The first time that I remember at-
tending it they alternated, you know. They would have the meetings
in various States, and the people who represented that State w^ould
act as chairman, some Klansman.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, which Klan groups are members
of the National Association as of the current time?
Mr. Venable. I never have had a record. I mean, they had a secre-
tary who kept the record. They would call the roll, you know, and he
w^ould call them out. I believe to my knowledge I believe Florida —
I don't know the names.
Mr. Manuel. United Florida Klans [United Florida Ku Klux
Klan].
Mr. Venable. I don't know the names of it, and I believe South
Carolina Klans.
Mr. Manltel. The Association of South Carolina Klans.
Mr. Venable. I believe that is what they call it, and I believe at one
time some portion of Arkansas was a member of it, and maybe some
portion of Alabama.
You see, the old U.S., thev had the United, and the old U.S. over
there and maybe some other Klan groups.
Mr. Manuel. "Wliat other Klan groups meet with the National
Association ?
Mr. Venable. There is what they call Associated Klan of Georgia,^
you know, and I think it is a small Klan. I believe Charlie Maddox
was a representative of that, but they would not attend every time.
Thev would send a delegate.
Mr. Manuel. Does the Dixie [Klans, Inc.] , Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan meet with the delegation?
Mr. Venable. Severnl times it met, at one time, when it used to
rotate over the various States it was a member of it.
1 Association of Georgia Klans.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3577
Mr. Manuel. Do any Klan groups from the State of Louisiana meet
with the association?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir. I don't know the names. I think there are
two groups that meet down there with them, you know. In fact, I don't
know the names of any of them that meet.
Mr. Maxuel. Would they be portions or factions of the Original
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Vexable. I don't know how they list their names there, you
know. I don't know the names of the Klan organizations in Loui-
siana. In fact, I didn't know there were that many until I attended
some of these hearings. I found out there were more groups than I
found.
Mr. Manuel. Does the United Klans of America, headed by Robert
Shelton, meet with the National Association ?
Mr. Venable. When it rotated a long time ago I believe one or two
of their members maybe met in, I believe, the old Dinkier Plaza Hotel.
They call it the old Ansley Hotel and maybe some other places.
Mr. Manuel. ^\nien, to your knowledge, did the United Klans meet
with the National Association?
Mr. Venable. Several years, to my knowledge, as a delegate. I be-
lieve maybe myself or some other member invited them on several
occasions to meet at Tucker in the last 2 or 3 years, but none of them
has ever come as a delegate and participated and actually meet.
Mr. Manuel. Do you possess any loiowledge as to why United Klans
is not represented in the National Association?
Mr. Venable. I can only state from what I heard in the meetings,
you know\ It was divulged by some of the delegates that they would
not cooperate wdth the other Klans. They would go into a State in a
vicinity and wouldn't even invite those people to participate in it.
Mr. Manuel. Let me understand your testimony correctly. I get
the idea that you are saying — and correct me if I am wrong — that it
was discussed in the National Association meetings that United Klans
of America was using unethical recruiting methods.
Mr. Venable. That is right ; I had heard some of that rumors, about
unethical and trying to cut into the other Klan groups and try to steal
membership and wouldn't try to cooperate w^ith the other Klan groups
at public rallies.
I have heard that statement made by the South Carolina group and I
believe maj^be the Associated group down in Georgia.
Mr. Manuel. Is it considered unethical within Klan groups them-
selves for another Klan to go into a territory where one Klan group is
established?
Mr. Venable. As I recall it^ — I could be wrong, you know — but as
I recall it, I believe they had a resolution, you know, as a result those
minutes were kept at this meeting and read at the next meeting for
approval and then destroyed.
I believe there was a resolution, as I recall it, to the effect if anything
occurred or if these groups would be unethical or if a man was banished
from a Klan, you know, that report, if he is banished in Louisiana,
would naturally be sent out by the secretary of all of the other groups
that he was banished and why he was banished, you know, he or them.
Mr. Manuel. Klan groups do keep such records
3578 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Venable. Well, I mean, that information, if say, Louisiana
banished me, if I was a member there, it was the duty — if they was a
member of the National Association, to send that to me if I was chair-
man. Then I was supposed to divulge it out in the next National meet-
ing, read his or her, or their name out, or the secretary, rather, would.
Mr. Manuel. In other w^ords, one order of business of the National
Association when it is necessary is to read the reports of other Klans
as to which members of those Klans were banished ?
Mr. Venable. Yes; but as I recall, that was a resolution but I
never had heard, never read any time I presided- — I didn't preside
at all of the meetings, you see, although I was temporary chairman,
I know members a lot of times in Tucker, Georgia, we would feed the
delegates there, and I w^ould be in there helping to serve them and
somebody else would act in my place.
Mr. Pool. If he was banished per se, the rest of them wouldn't
take him in. Is that the idea ?
Mr. Venable. That was the policy, but I never heard of any action
being taken against any group.
Mr. Pool. They just accepted the other group's decision.
Mr. Venable. Yes ; but I never heard any complaint filed about any-
body being banished.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, as temporary chairman of the National
Association, could you advise the committee whether the United Klans
of America is eligible for membership in the National Association?
Mr. Venable. In my hearing, attending what meetings, you know,
that I presided over in the last 2 or 3 years, none of the delegates
would ever yield. I had no vote, as I told you.
Mr. Manuel. How many delegates comprise a meeting at which
this would have been discussed ?
Mr. Venable. Well, regardless, if a group was a member of the
National Klan Association, they were entitled to three delegates. If
one delegate appeared, he could vote for the other two if they was
absent. If two come, they could vote three votes.
Mr. Pool. Each Klan had the same number of votes.
Mr. Venable. Regardless of how large or how small.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, to your knowledge, have the delegates
to the National Association ever discussed the activities of the United
Klans of America ?
Mr. Venable. Well, as I said, they discussed problems I told you
about.
Mr. Manuel. I mean other than recruiting. Have there been any
other
Mr. Venable. They wouldn't accept them, and I don't think
Shelton would ever accept us. He never would meet us on mutual
grounds.
I was appointed as a representative from a National Association to
meet with him and I had Miss Norse to call him. and he promised to
come to Atlanta where maybe we could iron out the problems, and he
never would meet.
Mr. Pool. Was your group a larger membership combined than
his group ?
Mr. Venable. No, sir ; I would not say they was. I don't know the
membership of any group, but just from newspaper accounts and hear-
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3579
say evidence I would say they was not. They may have been larger
m certam percentage or States than they had.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, was any alleged act of violence which
could have been attributed to the United Klans of America ever dis-
cussed at your meetings of the National Association ?
Mr. Venable. Well, they discussed this matter down in Alabama,
you know.
Mr. Manuel. Would you be more specific ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I mean tliis alleged killing down there.
Mr. Manuel. Mrs. Viola Liuzzo ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, the Selma march. I have heard some of the
members discviss that, and some members discussed other problems
where they would have maybe a fight or something, like the freedom
riders occasion over there.
Mr. Pool. Which Klan was involved in that killing?
Mr. Venable. I believe from accounts of newspapers and from evi-
dence obtained through hearsay evidence, I believe, Mr. Chairman,
United.
Mr. Manuiil. Was the slaying or murder of Lieutenant Colonel
Lemuel Penn ever discussed ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir ; that was discussed.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee the gist or briefly what
was discussed ?
Mr. Venable. It was discussed about it and, of course, not too much
there because we did not want to point the finger of any suspicion or
guilt on anybody. We did discuss that and other little fights and
things there, but we had no jurisdiction over tliem.
Mr. Pool. Which Klan was involved in w^hat you heard ?
Mr. Venable. From what accounts I learned, I believe it was the
United Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Now, because of these alleged acts, or the acts which
were allegedly involving members of the United Klans of America,
because of this, Mr. Venable, did the delegates to the National Asso-
ciation decide that United Klans was not a proper Klan organization
to have in the National Association ?
Mr. Venable. That was my opinion, I gathered.^ from the discus-
sion that they would not accept them as a member. They would have
provided these things if their delegates had come forth and presented
their credentials and in good faith I am sure they would have ac-
cepted them.
Mr. Pool. For further enlightenment on this problem and on the
subject you have under discussion, was it your belief that the United
Klans was involved in these two cases, or was it the general feeling
of your group ?
Mr. Venable. It was the general feeling and that brought the con-
clusion that brought the heat on all of us.
Mr. Manltel. Mr. Venable, did any one member organization of
the National Association, or did the National Association itself, con-
duct an investigation into the activities of the United Klans of Amer-
ica in regard to these two acts of violence which you liave described?
Mr. Venable. None to my knowledge, because we liad no jurisdic-
tion. If they had been a member of the association, we would have,
you know. We would have appointed a committee.
3580 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. Since it was the United KLans involved, you did not have
access to the information.
Mr. Venable. They was not a member, and therefore we had no
jurisdiction over their conduct or their officers.
Mr. Pool. It was pretty hard for you to investigate the United
Klans. Is that what you are saying ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, did you, to your certain knowledge,
know that the individuals arrested in both of these murder charges,
namely, the Penn murder and the Liuzzo murder, did you know to
your certain knowledge that the members arrested were members of
the United Klans ?
Mr. Venable. I could not say under oath. I learned it from the
news account like all of us, but I don't like to say, you know, that I
go on record saying, but from what I could learn in talking to people
and through the news account they was members of the United, but 1
couldn't swear it because I didn't see any of them people initiated as
being Klansmen.
Mr. Manuel. At any time, did any member of the United Klans
communicate with the National Association and say the persons ar-
rested were not members of the United Klan ?
Mr. Venable. No, sir ; not to my knowledge. They could have to
some of the other Klans.
Mr. Pool. Did you have an investigation and determine it was not
members of your groups that were involved in that ?
Mr. Venable. That is right; we discussed that at great length.
Mr. Pool. And they did determine it was members of the United
Klans and not your group ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. We will come back to this subject in just a little while
in more detail.
First, in regard to other Klan organizations, have you ever been a
member of other organizations, other than what you have just de-
scribed ? I am referring to Klan organizations.
Mr. Venable. I w^as a short time a short member of the Federated
Klan when it was in existence when it met in Atlanta, you might say,
as just an honorary, not a paid member.
Mr. Manuel. Did you hold any office in the Federated Klan?
Mr. Venable. No.
Mr. Manltel. Was Mr. William Hugh Morris head of that Klan
at that time ?
Mr. Venable. Yes. I met him in Atlanta, in I believe 1957, when I
let them use the pasture at Stone Mountain, Georgia, and that was
the first time I was invited to attend an association meeting — along
in 1957 or 1958.
Mr. Manuel. Have vou lield membership in the National Ku Klux
Klan?
Mr. Venable. National Knights of the the Ku Klux Klan, Incor-
porated, do you mean ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manltel. Being you raise that point, is there a difference be-
tween the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Incorporated ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3581
Mr. Venable. The National Kii Kliix Klan Association — that is one
I am temporary chairman of. The National Knigrhts of the Kn Klux
Klan, Incorporated, I am a member. I would guess you would
classify me a member, a card-carrying member.
Mr. Pool. It is an association.
Mr. Vexable. Yes, all of the different groups meet there.
Mr. Manuel. Do you head an organization of the National Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan which is a member of the National Association?
Mr. Venable. No, we have talked about it, one, because it is pretty
hard to get tliese charters in other States domesticated, you know,
recorded. If it is chartered in Georgia, and if you go into the North,
East, and West, sometimes they Avon't register your charter there.
Do you understand what lam talking about?
Mr. Manuel. Not exactly. My question relates to this : Have you
ever held t'lie^office of Imperial Wizard in the National Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan, Incorporated ?
Mr. Venable. National Knights, yes — National Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan, Incorporated.
Mr. Pool. Is that organization a member of the National Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan Association ?
Mr. Venable. Yes. The two I am a member of, but we don't carry
cards there.
Mr. Pool. You are temporary chairman of the association.
Mr. Venable. Yes, temporary chairman.
Mr. Manuel. Now, Mr. Venable, were you, in fact, one of the
original incorporators of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan,
Incorporated ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Who were the other
Mr. Venable. Mr. Hugh Morris and I believe Mr. Hill and Mr.
Butterworth. You see, you have to have three bona fide people living
in a State to charter a corporation. You can have a thousand, but you
have to have a minimum of three. You don't necessarily incorporate
meaning they own any part of it.
Mr. Pool. This is what State you are talking about ?
Mr. Venable. Georgia.
Mr. Manuel. I would like to show you a copy, Mr. Venable, of
the charter filed with the secretary of state for the State of Georgia,
for the superior court of Fulton County
Mr. Venable. Fulton County — DeKalb County.
Mr. Manuel. — DeKalb, which lists the original incorporators as
William Hugh Morris of Box 415, Buchanan, Georgia; H. G. Hill of
461 Moreland Avenue, Fulton County, Atlanta, Georgia ; Wally But-
terworth, V.F.W. Drive, Stone Mountain, DeKalb County, Georgia;
and James R. Venable, 900 V.F.W. Drive, Stone Mountain. And I
show you this, Mr. Venable, and ask you if that is a true copy, to the
best of your recollection, of the charter?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir ; it appears to be.
(Document marked "James Venable Exhibit No. 1." See commit-
tee report, The Present-Day Ku Klux Klan Move7nent, pp. 325-328.)
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, at the time of this incorporation, which
was the 1st day of November 1963, did Mr. Morris, Mr. Hill, Mr.
Butterworth hold official positions within the National Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan?
3582 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Venable. National Knights, do you mean the association?
Mr. Manuel. No, the National Knights.
Mr. Venable. None of us held anything official until it was incorpo-
rated and the first meeting was held.
Mr. Manuel. After the first meeting did the original incorporators
as listed in this document become officers of the Klan organization ?
Mr. Venable. I become one and I believe Mr. Morris become one,
and Mr. Hill become an officer.
Mr. Manuel. Which office did Mr. Morris hold ?
Mr. Venable. Vice president, Klaliff .
Mr. Manuel. Imperial Klaliff?
Mr. Venable. That is right, that was known as vice president, and
myself as president.
Mr. Manuel. Which office did Mr. Hill hold ?
Mr. Venable. He was acting as secretary and chaplain, temporarily,
you know.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Butterworth hold any office?
Mr. Venable. He never did hold any office.
Mr. Pool. What office did you hold ?
Mr. Venable. President.
Mr. Pool. Imperial Wizard ?
Mr. Venable. Imperial Wizard ; that is right. It was a nonprofit,
fraternal, secret organization.
Mr. Manuel. For the record, did Mr. Butterworth hold any office
in the organization ?
Mr. Venable. He never did hold any. He attended the first meet-
ing, may have gone to some Klan meetings after it was chartered.
Mr. Manuel. Was he a member of the organization ?
Mr. Venable. Yes ; he was a member of it.
Mr. Manuel, Of the National Knights ?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Did you know Mr. Butterworth prior to his member-
ship in the National Knights to be a member of the United Klans?
Mr. Venable. Yes ; he told me he was.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever meet with Mr. Butterworth at meet-
ings of the United Klans of America when you were also a member ?
Mr. Venable. Yes; I met him, I believe some place in Georgia, I
believe at some tourist court there when there w^as some effort made
to try to merge, you know, to unite the Klans. That is the first
occasion I met him.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever know Mr. Butterworth to hold the
position of publicity director for the United Klans of America?
Mr. Venable. Well, I understood he published some paper or helped
publish some paper called the Fiery Cross.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain laiowledge was Mr. Butterworth ever
a m.ember of the Imperial Board of the United Klans of America ?
Mr. Venable. That I don't know because I didn't attend that
board because I was not connected with that Klan at that time.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, getting back to the National Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan, Inc., I should like to show you a copy of the
certified statement for annual registration of the corporation of
the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc., listing its president
as James R. Venable and its general manager as Wally Butterworth,
giving the principal office at P.O. Box 657, in Tucker, Georgia.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3583
I would like to show you this, Mr. Venable, and ask if Mr. Butter-
worth ever served in the capacity described on that certificate as
general manager of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Venable. He never did serve. He may have aided the Klan,
certainly.
(Document marked "James Venable Exhibit No. 2" follows:)
Form r.38 >|
James Venable Exhibit No. 2
state of georgia ^
-^,t^ DEL 1 e ,363
CERTIFIED STATEMENT FOR ANNUAL REGISTRATION OF A CORPORATION
NAME OF CORPORATION: . National _Krii£;ht.s__o_f Th^e_Ku.Klu!C Klan_Llnc.
PRESIDENT: ^3^^:^ A'J'f^able _ ...GENERAL MANAGER Jfa^y. But terwqrth _ _
Pr'iNCIPAL OFFICE: (Strpct »nJ No.) P'Ot '<ox 657 _ CITY .. Tucker STATE 0^.
mfSciPAL OFFICE IN GA.: (St. nnd No.) CITY tucker, Georgia _
AUTHORIZED AGENT IN GA. (If foroiKn): _ _ _ _ '
AGENT'S ADDRESS (If foroiRn): . ... - CITY .; .. -"j _J
NATURE OF BUSINESS ,, Fraternal Secret Order. __. _ _ _ ',
WHFN INCORPORATED (Date) - . BEGAN BUSINESS IN GA. (Date) _ -
WHERE INCORPORATED (CITY) D«^cati>r COUNTY .. De%lb.. STATE ^a
BY WHAT AUTHORITY .Judsg. ^3ui).erj.oi' t^aurt De'^alb Cgimty. capital stock ^one
TO THE HONORABLE BEN W. FORTSON. .11!.. Allnntn, Ga.
I hereby certify that the above statement furnishcii the Secretary of State of the State of Georgia for record, as required by law, is correct.
\^, /, />' /V ^^"^^ December J^ jg63
Signed byZ.'l'J^. I V ''A^Ui/Li ^ TITLE_ . .P^.^sident
(OVtR)
Mr. Pool. Did you have such an office as general manager ?
Mr. Venable. Well, he would answer the phone.
Mr. Pool. Did you provide for a general manager ?
Mr. Venable. No, we had no money to pay any general manager.
He would answer the phone, like we have had lots of people
Mr. Pool. The general manager was not an official ?
Mr. Venable. No; not an official. I don't know of any title to give
a man such as a general manager of a Klan. He might be the Im-
perial Wizard or secretary or something like that.
Mr. Pool. Is that charter application false, then ?
Mr. Venable. I would not say it is true or correct, because I be-
lieve this title here was typed in there maybe at Tucker, Georgia. It
may have been typed in at Atlanta.
Mr. Pool. Who signed the application 'I
Mr. Venable, This seems to be my signature over here on the
left-hand side.
Mr. Pool. When you signed it, did it have the general manager
provision in there ?
Mr. Venable. That I couldn't say, it did or it didn't, because the
post office box then was 657. It has been changed to 107. They
moved the post office there.
Mr. Pool. In view of your testimony, you filed an incorrect ap-
plication there ; is that correct ?
Mr. Venable. I would not say that I did or didn't, you know. I
don't know who typed this in. It could have been typed in by him;
it could have been typed in by the boy in the office. I wouldn't say it
was or wasn't.
Mr. Pool. In other words, you signed it before it was on there?
3584 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Venable. That I don't recall, just like this charter that went
to North Carolina. I guess Mr. McBrayer may have filled out that
registration.
Mr. Pool. I am not trying to twist you up because a general manager
would not be an official, and it is not too important, and I was just
trying to find out if you knew what was in the application when it
was filed.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Butterworth was a member of the National
Knights?
Mr. Venable. For a short while. He never did participate much
in the Klan.
Mr, Manuel. Were you ever associated in another organization
known as the Defensive Legion of Registered Americans, Inc., with
Mr. Butterworth?
Mr. Venable. Yes; we first chartered that corporation. He ap-
proached me. He wanted to make some tapes and phonograph
records, and I chartered that corporation.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever use the tapes and phonograph records
that were made ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. How were they used, Mr. Venable ?
Mr. Venable. We would give some away and we would send some
to people, people would purchase the phonograph records, you know,
throughout the United States, and in different States and order them.
Mr. Manuel. Was this activity done on behalf of any Klan group?
Mr. Venable. It wasn't done on any behalf. It was a project that
he and I started. We hoped to try to do some good on different
subjects. He was a former narrator or broadcaster for, I believe,
NBC or one of the broadcasting companies.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Butterworth subsequently go on the air in
Atlanta, Georgia?
Mr. Venable. He went on the air maybe three or four times or some-
thing as a Defensive Legion, several. I had a contract I think for a
week at a time or a few days or 4 days a week or 3 days a week.
Mr. Manuel. Was that station
Mr. Venable. WJUN, one on Ponce de Leon, Decatur, Georgia. I
think they called it "Big Gun."
Mr. Manuel. Did that station terminate Mr. Butterworth's broad-
cast on that station?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. For what reason, Mr. Venable, to your knowledge did
the station
Mr. Venable. I never did get any reason out of it. They claimed
that his language was too strong, you know, criticizing people severely.
That was my understanding, and I think some of the people who
patronized them
Mr. Pool. What were some of the statements he made?
Mr. Venable. I don't know. He made his own tapes, you know.
Mr. Pool. You don't recall any of the statements?
Mr. Venable. No ; but that is what I was told.
Mr. Pool. You didn't hear the statements?
Mr. Venable. Sometimes I did. I didn't hear all of them.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3585
Mr. Pool. You don't recall any of the statements?
Mr. Venable. I don't recall any of them, but that was the com-
plaint they told me. I signed the contract with them as presideni .
Mr. Manuel. At the time that this radio station
Mr. Venable. In fact, I put up the money, you know, for them.
Mr. Manuel. At the time that this radio station took this action,
Mr. Venable, was Mr. Butterworth associated with you not only in the
Defensive Legion of Eegistered Americans, Inc., but also in the Na-
tional Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Venable. I don't know what period there was. I mean this
Defensive Legion was incorporated, I believe, maybe in 1962 or some
period along there.
Mr. Manuel. I am talking specifically about the time of his radio
broadcasts now.
Mr. Venable. I wouldn't say it was or wasn't, you know. Dates —
I have no way of being certain about them. He was connected with
the Klan after it was chartered, you know, and I believe he may have
attended some of the National meetings, you know, before this Klan
was chartered while that Defensive Legion was in existence.
Mr. Manuel. Were you ever advised by the broadcasting station
that they were going to terminate Mr. Butterworth's program because
of his alleged Klan connection?
Mr. Venable. No, I didn't hear that. I mean, the man never did
give me anything definite, the gentleman I talked to, but I under-
stood from my conversation with him — they didn't mention anything
about the Klan. It was some of the peoj^le, the advertisers, you know,
and I believe he criticized Senator — I believe Fulbright, from some
statement he made in a university in California in some college on
some subject. Maybe that was one of the reasons. I heard certain
rumors. I don't know it to be a fact.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever been associated in an association called
the Christian Voters and Buyers League?
Mr. Venable. That was a trade name owned by the Defensive
Legion that put phonograph records and tapes to try to get people to
join, furnish them literature and records and tapes, and try to advo-
cate, you know, for them to register and vote.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge, did the Christian Voters
and Buyers League, which you stated was a trade name under the
Defensive Legion of Registered Americans, advocate against busi-
nesses that were Jewish-owned?
Mr. Venable, They published a book. Perhaps I may have it here
or I may have it there, or you may have one in those records, or I would
be glad to send the committee one of them, exposing the kosher food
racket.
Mr. Pool. Exposure of what ?
Mr. Venable. Kosher food, showing that the Jewish race dominated
practically most products, all of the detergents, like the Kraft Cheese
Company. They would put certain ingredients, the Jewish race, in their
products, ingredients in it, and like Heinz pork and beans and taking
out the pork and say pork and beans. These ingredients was a part
to be used in these foods there in which a consumer would have to buy
and which the people were taxed to support the Jewish religion.
3586 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. I don't quite understand what you mean by that. How
were they taxed?
Mr. Venable. You get you a can of Heinz pork and beans, most all
of the detergents and you will see a little "k" in it meaning "kosher."
It has no hog fat in pork and beans. If I was a purchaser or you was
a purchaser, that company would have to purchase these products and
put them in these beans or whatever they was manufacturing, and
in turn it would increase the payouts. In other words, that company
would have to pay out and the consumer would have to pay it. It was
using indirectly to support a religious faith which we contend was
contrary to the Constitution. I shouldn't be taxed, and neither should
you.
Mr. Pool. Did it have the word "kosher" on there?
Mr. Venable. No, it had a little "k" on there.
Mr. Pool. Could you buy the pork and beans without the "k" ?
Mr. Venable. Maybe from some companies, but we was trying to
expose that factor.
Mr. Pool. What is wrong with a company putting a "k" on there for
"kosher"?
Mr. Venable. I should not be held liable and taxed to support your
religion or my religion.
Mr. Pool. Why do you have to buy them ?
Mr. Venable. I don't have to, but if I want to eat Heinz pork and
beans
Mr. Pool. I don't know what they are bellyaching about.
Mr. Venable. You didn't have to buy them, but nearly all or many
of the products, you didn't have to buy them but it was no fat in them.
They would use the vessels, they have to sterilize the vessels of any pork
in there, they would have to be destroyed. Kosher meat — it would
start off, say, in Chicago.
Mr. Clawson. Are you making the observation just because mem-
bers of tlie Jewish faith
Mr. Venable. No, I am not-
Mr. Clawson. Let me ask the question first — because members of
the Jewish faith might be in business and you deal with them, you are
supporting the faith ?
Mr. Venable. I don't feel that nobody ought to be tax supporting
any religious faith.
Mr. Clawson. That w^as not my question. Just because they are
members of a particular religion and in a particular business, does
that automatically mean you are supporting their faith ?
Mr. Venable. No, you are free to patronize anybody, but I would
say nearly all of the products had a little "k" on there, showing it was
kosher.
Mr. Clawson. That does not respond to my question,
Mr. Venable. I will try to get this committee one of those little
books so you can understand it. Even the tinfoil had certain
ingredients.
Mr. Pool. Are you telling me, if I buy a can of fish on Friday, I am
supporting the Catholic faith ?
Mr. Venable. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. What is the difference ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3587
Mr. Venable, There is a lot of difference between kosher
Mr. Pool. A little "k"?
Mr. Venable. Kosher, and it has certain ingredients in it.
Mr. Pool. I kind of like kosher pickles better than I do regular
pickles.
Mr. Venable. I have eaten them myself, your Honor.
Mr. Pool. I don't know what they do to me, but they are better.
Mr. Venable. I am not against it personally, against any race, color,
or creed.
Mr. Pool. Was this the main purpose of the Ku Klux Klan, to get
in to act ?
Mr. Venable. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. This is just a byproduct ?
Mr. Venable. It is just a different corporation printing different
subjects.
Mr. Pool. Was this a subject of importance to the members to boy-
cott these things ?
Mr. Venable. We was on many subjects like the mental health
program, foreign aid. Federal Reserve. We discussed many subjects
so the public could know something about it. We didn't know all
about it. We knew a little something about it.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, I would like to show you the annual
registration for a corporation for the years 1963 and 1964 of the De-
fensive Legion of Registered Americans, Inc., of which you have said
the Christian Voters and Buyers League was a part
Mr. Venable. It was just a trade association, you know.
Mr. Manuel. On the 1963 registration, Mr. James R. Venable is
listed as the president, and the authorized agent in the State of Georgia
is listed as either Mr. James R. Venable or Wally Butterworth.
On the 1964 registration, the president again is listed as James R.
Venable, the authorized agent in Georgia is listed as Wally Butter-
worth.
Now at the time that these two registrations were effected Mr.
Venable, were both yourself and Mr. Butterworth members of the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Venable. That I couldn't answer. I only become a member of
the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan after it was chartered
and the first meeting had, you know. I believe it was in November, if
you got the date there.
(Annual registration documents marked "James Venable Exhibits
Nos. 3-A and 3-B," respectively, appears on p. 3588. Copy of charter
marked "James Venable Exhibit No. 3-C.' See committee report.
The Present-Day Ku Klux Klan Movement, pp. 335-338.)
Mr. Manuel. November 1963?
Mr. Venable. I never did see Mr. Wally Butterworth initiated in
the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan or any Ku Klux Klan,
you know. I was not present when he was initiated in United, or if
he Avas initiated in the National, I was not present, to my knowledge.
Mr. Manuel. As Imperial Wizard of the National Knights,
wouldn't you know whether or not Mr. Butterworth was a member?
Mr. Venable. I issued him a card, you know, but as far as swearing
him in and initiating him, I never did do that because I understood
he had been. He gave me a certain hand grip which I recognized as
a member.
3588
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
James Venable Exhibit No. 3-A
p™r.» ^?!i ""^ r^tf on° STATE OF GEORGIA 1,, ,c. , ,,.,,
^ ^- r^ , l^o3 now due $1.00 j :,^ ■ tn ^ )K^^r,
y ^ tyt:^^' • ->•
CERTIFIED STATEMENT FOR ANNUAL REGISTRATION OF A CORPORATION
NAMeJqf corporation :,Pe_'>4y!,!r''9'°". °^ Re£isteredJmcri£a^ns^Inc
PRESIDENT: ^fi ilC^i \\^ U '■■ ^'-f-^~:~ ^ ^GENERAL MANAGER ,^ , y -.-^..
PRINCIPAL OFFI^^Street and No.) 'd2L L^C l^ ^jAl'-'prrA^ CITY .^^jj^ "ij^^^fi. ST.4.TE
PRINCIPAL. OFFICE IN CA.r (St. and No.) &^_-/l/^i-'^ L^- ''J^l^lifL. CITY-
AUTHORIZED AGENT IN GA. "f foreign): -JydP''*^^3^Jt^^.Lf^^-^ — O^ lA^
AGENT'S ADDRESS (If foreign):. 5/.t' '4^ ti '^ i_) i^i'Vfr'; CITY„
NATURE OF BUSINESS ^ -0.' '' ''■^ i' C\ ' 1 7~' lltjl^'-t .^ f--^ -l. ^ Li-JrtJ-ZZl/ ^
WHEN INCORPORATED (Date) //(■> , ^__. _.BEGAN BySlNESS IN GA. (Date)
WHERE INCORPORATED (CITY) , . )Ctt6.'ilPi f^ltC\^ (--L' COnNTy STATE J^.,t~ ■
BY WHAT AUTHORITY ' j/^^^Lj, ^ ''I'^^-^pi^ U(-\y |-,.<- '-^\^{ CAPITAL STOCIC."L'*":Vi^''-''/v' -/-—
TO THF HONORABLE BEN W. FORtSON, JR., Atlanli, Ga. , ' ^"■^St? /^ '"''y'"^~
I hereby! certify tlia^ the above statement furnished the Secretary of State of the State of Georgia for record, as re<]uired by law, is"correct.
I ,i— n // , . ) DATE .. /^/■^ /P^ ^ 19
Signed by ,^/'^ ' ^'>^ ("^ (/■J H^^^f'-C: ^ t,t,.f /f.-^:.L< J . '_ '
/ ,- • (OVIR)
James Venable Exhibit No. 3-B
'""'■* i state of georgia ' '^'^■
,/ ; CERTIFIED STATEMENT FOR ANNUAL REGISTRATION OF A CORPORATION
NAME OF CORPORATION: /^^''^f'?^^) -^^^-^ '"/ ^^^>^J'<^^-^~-f^'- <^^^^ l^^T^t..^ . M ^ C,
PRESIDENT: kr^^^-^zfl-A-^^^^^^t^SL 1 GE^ziKL MANAGbR.. ,^ ... ^
PRINCIPAL OFFIctf (Street and 'Ao^S'AQ.^Vl:I^Wjj:^:l^-'<kL.. CITY_ ^^^^._^W:i^<*<^ STATE y'^^
-^TMNCIPAL OFFICE IN GA.: (St. and No ) ^6' (^ l/F LA- ^^^±S^__^ -^ CITY fV^i^' y^fi^ 'cL^U -^ .^^,
i*T«JTHORlZED ;jVGENT IN GA. (If foreign) :-./Z^S^^;^i. 'Lfi-^ZiU^^^^S, ,^_ ^' J J
AGENT'S ADDRESS (If foreign) :..-^i^:^_^_._ ^ ^1^^ ihU'^ CVTy '^^^tT^ y^d-^^^^J^-t,-,^ \ J
NATURE OF BUSINESS fgypC^lcAii: "^Aj ^ JfJJi /[fC /V (-^CrX^y^^cf^ ( _*
WHEN INCORPORATED (Date) _y^ 2- t<^?2^'' BEGAN BUSINESS IN GA. (D^Ku.&^67^-Z'/L^:..!?r.:r_'...^. ...
WHERE INCORPORATED ICITYl ./Vyife .7'_'^ll_ C0UNTY_.._7?^^:^^^. STATE ....^^i^
BY WHAT AUTHORITY (YU. ju . ^ l>^'J'2^AAy"-^ CAPITAL STOCK. .:_
TO THE HONORABLE BEN W. FORTSON, JJL, AtlanU, Ga.
I hereby^ certify that the above statement furnished the Secretary of State of the State of Georgia ^or jecord, u required by law, is correct.
Sigr.ed by l^rj^^^^^^ < W'lM^d^ Tm.F V^ ^^/^J^ ^^■<'* '^ '.' «»
<y (OVER)
Mr. Manuel. And you issued him a membership card ?
Mr. Venable. He was never active in the Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Were you and Mr. Butterworth officers in the De-
fensive Legion of Registered Americans?
Mr. Venable. He was what we called a narrator, kind of a manager.
He made the tapes, he made the records, and I practically paid the
money, you know. It cost me lots of money to fool with it; it was
a losing proposition.
Mr. Manuel. Were there any other officers on the staff or on the
board of the Defensive Legion of Registered Americans?
Mr. Venable. We had a lady there a short while who helped us,
and he and I and my nephews and my sister helped us, you know,
with some secretarial work and keep the books and records and post
the addresses for mail and records where they was going to the users
who ordered them.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3589
Mr. Manuel. Did you maintain a regular mailing list for the De-
fensive Legion?
Mr. Vexable. We had a mailing list, but I never did have it. Mr.
Butterworth kept the list. He made it up and he kept it. When he
left, he had taken the membership lists and taken a lot of records,
I don't know what records, maybe his personal records.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge, where did the records
come from that were used by Mr. Butterworth ?
Mr. Venable. Do you mean what records we bought ? I think the
first batch of records we bought in Atlanta, Georgia, I forgotten the
name of the company. He made out and made the arrangements to
buy them. I think I put up the first payment on them, you know,
maybe a hundred or two hundred dollars.
Mr. Manuel. Were all of these records purchased from the Kite
Record Company ^ of Cincinnati, Ohio?
Mr. Venable. I don't know. I am pretty sure all of them but
maybe the first order or the second order or something like that.
He done all the buying and purchasing things, you know.
Mr. Manuel. Were all of the labels on the records those of the
Defensive Legion of Registered Americans?
Mr. Venable. That was all his design; all that Avas left entirely
up to him.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, did you ever disseminate records
with the label "National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan" ?
Mr. Venable. Now, he made one record, one record called "The
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan," what we called a Ku Klux Klan record on the one time, and I
believe he interviewed some people in Lebb's Restaurant and inter-
viewed some employees there about what took place about a riot there.
You wouldn't call it a riot. It was people pushing in, the colored
people doing it.
Mr. Manuel. Was that record subsequently played over the radio
station ?
Mr. Venable. I didn't have it played, but he could have made it.
Mr. Pool. Were any of your Klan funds ever used to finance your
record and tape operations?
Mr. Venable. No, sir, because neither one of them had any funds.
I had to finance all of them.
Mr. Pool. You paid for it out of your pocket ?
Mr. Venable. Paid practically all of it except the income reflected
by our books and records. It cost me lots of money. That is the rea-
son we had to discontinue both, I mean tlie Klan, this Defensive Legion
or Christian Voters and Buyers.
Mr. Pool. Did you take any of this off your income tax as an
exemption ?
Mr. Venable. No, sir ; I didn't take it off as any exemption.
Mr. Pool. It was just a flat loss to you ?
Mr. Venable. It was just a flat loss, because if I had taken it off I
would liave to show it was coming from my ownself . I could not have
taken it off. It was a losing proposition. We gave away lots of
records, lots of them were broken.
1 Rite Record Productions, Inc.
59-222 O— 67— pt. 5 8
3590 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. You did derive some income from the Klan operation ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir ; we got some income, I mean the Defensive
Legion or Christian Voters and Buyers.
Mr. Pool. You personally got some income from your Klan
activities ?
Mr. Venable. I got some refund.
Mr. Pool. Why couldn't you take this over then as an expense?
Mr. Venable. I never did do it. I felt that I owed it to my race
and my country.
Mr. Pool. Did you ever take anything off as an exemption on your
income tax on your operations and expenses promoting the Klan ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, I believe I did. I am going to try to do it this
year if I got any.
Mr. Pool. Do you feel if it produced any income for you
Mr. Venable. It ought to be refunded if it has any, but I would
rather leave it with the Klan.
Mr. Pool. "What are some of the expenses you took off of your
income tax?
Mr. Venable. I haven't filed 1965 yet.
Mr. Pool. Well, what about 1964 ?
Mr. Venable. It was a losing proposition there. We taken in I
believe $591, as I recall.
Mr. Pool. But you made income as an attorney and you didn't take
it off of there?
Mr. Venable. Oh, yes, I made my own what I take for my personal,
I made my income return
Mr. Pool. It showed a profit on that ?
Mr. Venable. On my personal, I am sure I did.
Mr. Pool. Did you ever take any expenses off in your Klan promo-
tion ? Did you ever take any of those expenses off your income tax ?
Mr. Venable. No, I haven't yet. I showed what I spent trying to
improve the Tucker Building for paints and materials, and so forth.
I had none to take off. You might say all of it was a loss.
Mr. Clawson. Is the name of this organization Christian Voters
and Buyers ?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Clawson. What was the "buyer" part of it? Did you recom-
mend buyers?
Mr. Venable. Well, certain products.
Mr. Clawson. Were any of them distributed or sold by Christian
people ?
Mr. Venable. We never did manufacture any products.
Mr. Clawson. I don't mean that; when you recommended buyers,
did you buy from Christians or did you buy from people known to
be Christians ?
Mr. Venable. I never did make any recommendation. That Avas
left up to Mr. Butterworth.
Mr. Clawson. Did he make recommendations along that line ?
Mr. Venable. I am sure he did.
Mr. Clawson. Would that be supporting a Christian then if you
made that kind of recommendation ?
Mr. Venable. The Christian Voters and Buyers League was trying
to get people to register and vote.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3591
Mr. Clawson. What was the buyers part of it ?
Mr. Venable. To buy certain products.
Mr. Clawson. From certain people?
Mr. Venable. Certain people, certain manufacturers, certain groups.
Mr. Clawson. If the name was Christian, then they were using
Christian people. Wouldn't that be supporting the Christian religion ?
Mr. Venable. If you buy from them, it would be increasing their
income.
Mr. Clawson. It would be the same as the Jewish situation.
Mr. Venable. It seems it would be.
Mr. Pool. You were putting up the money for Butterworth, but
you didn't know what he was doing ?
Mr. Venable. It was left up to him, through, to do these things.
I didn't have time to participate in it much.
Mr. Pool. You felt like he had good judgment and you relied on
him?
Mr. Venable. I thought he had good judgment, but I had a loss.
Mr. Manuel. I show you a series of documents the committee has
in its possession relating to the Defensive Legion of Registered Amer-
icans and the Voters and Buyers League. These documents include a
letter under your signature sent to "Mr. and Mrs. Christian American,
and Family, :#rl Main Street, Everywhere, U.S.A.," and a list of in-
structions and certain other documents relating to certain corpora-
tions and, I might add, Mr. Chairman, that if there are any corpora-
tions that are left out of this, it would be amazing. And I ask you,
Mr. Venable, to review those documents and explain to the committee
why all those companies were listed on those documents of the Chris-
tian Voters and Buyers League.
Mr. Venable. Mr. Butterworth listed those, you know. I mean, he
had a buying book, a big catalogue. I don't know what you call it,
kind of like a directory.
(Documents marked "James Venable Exhibit No. 4" and retained in
committee files.)
Mr. Manuel. Am I to understand every company listed in those
documents was to be boycotted by persons whom you would contact?
Mr. Venable. That is the list he sent out. It is may personal opinion
that lots of them companies on there shouldn't be boycotted, you
know.
Mr. Pool. What about reading a few of those names there, Mr.
Venable, that are to be boycotted.
Mr. Venable. Look, like you got one here, company like Marquis
Neuman, Goldes, and Blum. It says national distribution on it;
Duncan C&T of Houston, Texas.
Of course, a lot of these things here I don't know what it means
or why. I couldn't explain all them companies. I understand from
him he used a directory listing these, national, some type of directory.
Mr. Manuel. Were all of these companies listed supposed to be
operated or owned or manipulated in some fashion by Jewish people?
Mr. Venable. That, I don't know; you know, I mean, he mdexed
them and I think he studied them. You see, he's got listed down
here, and distribution and whether it is State, local, or what. I don't
know.
3592 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. According to the document and the first letter on the
pack that I handed you under your signature, you sent out to persons
instructions, as I understand that letter, to boycott Kosher food prod-
ucts, and so forth.
Am I to understand that every company in that was intended to be a
target for boycott?
Mr. Venable. No; I don't think so, you know. It was left up to
the person who bought it to study the companies. He didn't have to
boycott them. Free enterprise should exist whether it is owned by
any race, color, or creed.
Mr. Clawson. But you made the recommendation that they study
and then refrain from buying from them ?
Mr. Venable. If they wanted to. It is left up to the individual.
I don't think any Government or individual should dominate and
tell me who to buy from or not to buy from.
Mr. Clawson. It was just your recommendation ?
Mr. Venable. It was just a study. It was his recommendation.
Mr. Clawson. It was your letter so it would be your recommen-
dation.
Mr. Venable. Well, it would be that Defensive Legion, under my
signature as an officer.
Mr. Manuel. Are you appearing before the committee this after-
noon in response to a subpena served upon you ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. At the Armed Services Hearing Room of the Old
House Office Building in Washington, D.C., on the 6th of October
1965?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, an attachment, which was made part of
that subpena, called upon you to produce in paragraph 1 :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your pos-
session, custody, or control, maintained by or available to you as Imperial Klonsel
of the U.S. Klans, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc., pursuant to its constitution
and by-laws, relating to the organization, business, and affairs of said U. S. Klans,
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc., and its affiliated organizations, for the period
from 1955 to date.
Is it not a fact, Mr. Venable, that you met with me this morning and
turned over records which you had in your possession ?
Mr. Venable. Yes; I turned over records, but I didn't have any.
I don't recall having any in the first item. I never had any of them
records because, as a lawyer, I wouldn't have anything except maybe
some lawsuits and I don't think that would be admissible. It wouldn't
be relevant to this proceeding.
Mr. Manuel. So you have complied with paragraph 1 of the
subpena ?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. So you do not possess any of the items called for now
in paragraph 1 ?
Mr. Venable. No.
Mr. Manuel. Paragraph 2 called upon you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your pos-
session, custody, or control, maintained by or available to you as Imperial
Klonsel of the United Klans of America, Inc., Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, also
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3593
known as Invisible Empire, United Klans Knights of the Ku KIux Klan of Amer-
ica, Inc., pursuant to its constitution and by-laws, relating to the organization,
business, and affairs of the said United Klans of America, Inc., Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan, also known as the Invisible Empire, United Klans Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan of America, Inc., and its affiliated organizations, for the period
from 1961 to date.
Again, Mr. Venable, have you by turning over documents to me this
morning complied to the best of your knowledge with paragraph 2 of
the subpena?
Mr. Venable. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Paragraph 3 of your subpena calls upon you to
produce :
A copy of the constitution and by-laws of the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan, Inc., and all books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in
your possession, custody, or control, maintained by or available to you as Im-
perial Wizard of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc.. pursuant to its
constitution and by-laws, relating to the organizations, business, and affairs of
the said National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc., and its affiliated organiza-
tions, for the period from 1963 to date.
Have you also, Mr. Venable, by turning over certain documents to
me this morning and records complied fully to the best of your knowl-
edge with paragraph 3 of this subpena ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir, except I may have a lot of letters from stu-
dents, you know, just requesting Klan literature for the matter of writ-
ing a thesis on the Ku Klux Klan.
(Constitution and Laws of Knights of the Ku Klux Klan together
with certain amendments adopted by the National Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan, Inc., marked "James Venable Exhibits Nos. 5-A and 5-B,"
respectively, and retained in committee files.)
Mr. Manuel. Other than the documents that you turned over to the
committee through me this morning, do you possess or do you have
control over any other books, records, documents, correspndence, or
memoranda?
Mr. Venable. No, sir. I had some applications and I had some let-
ters at Tucker, Georgia, but 2 or 3 months ago somebody went in there
and got some old applications, come in from Ohio that never have
been processed, most of them, 1964, and somebody got an old televi-
sion out there. Them's the only records I had. I had a lot of letters
and copies of letters in there.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your knowledge does any other indi-
vidual or officer of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan maintain
or have control over any of the documents, if they exist, of the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Venable. Nobody that I know of except this lady, Mrs. Witte,
she may have some that are not available. I mean being — was an of-
ficer up there in Ohio, active then and inactive now, and Mrs. Foster
might have some correspondence herself. She's got charge of the
ladies' auxiliary.
Mr. Clawson. What was that name ?
Mr. Venable. Mrs. Estelle Foster, sometimes known as Granny
Foster.
Mr. Manuel. Does she hold an official position in the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Venable. She is known as Grand Commander, the same as an
Emperor.
3594 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your knowledge, since March of 1965,
have any records, correspondence, memoranda, or books belonging to
the National Knights of the Kn Klux Klan been destroyed either by
yourself or anyone else ?
Mr. Venable. No ; not to my knowledge, you know. I had some out
at Tucker and I got some in the Atlanta office — not to my knowledge.
In fact, I would not permit them to be destroyed because I know we
have to have them for tax purposes and files.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your knowledge, have you complied
fully to paragraph 3 of the subpena?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Paragi'aph 4 calls upon you to produce :
A copy of the constitution and by-laws of the National Association of Klans
in America, and all books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda
in your possession, custody, or control, maintained by or available to you as
Chairman of the National Association of Klans In America, pursuant to its
constitution and by-laws, relating to the organization, business, and affairs
of the said National Association of Klans In America, and its aflQliated organi-
zations, for the period from 1958 to date.
Mr. Venable. I would like to say that the association did adopt
the constitution in which you get a photostatic copy but as to any
records or books I never have had any of the association. I am just
temporary chairman. If there are any, Mr. Shearouse in Savannah
used to live — I suppose he is still there — he was secretary of the
National Association.
Mr. Manuel. How does Mr. Shearouse spell his last name?
Mr. Venable. S-h-e-a-r-o-u-s-e.
Mr. Manuel. What was his position ?
Mr. Venable. Secretary from year to year, like myself.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your knowledge, is he the custodian of
the records?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your knowledge, what do those records
include?
Mr. Venable. It would include who was members of it, you know.
Mr. Manuel. Would it include minutes of the meetings of the Na-
tional Association ?
Mr. Venable. It would probably include minutes or discussions
made. I don't know how it kept them.
Mr. Manuel. As chairman of the National Association, do you have
access or control over those documents or records ?
Mr. Venable. No, I don't have any control over them.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your knowledge, have you as chair-
man of the National Association of Klans complied with paragraph
4 of your subpena ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir; of anything I got. I told you verbally
what it stood for, but I don't have anv documentary evidence.
Mr. Clawson. Before you leave that, what authority do you have
as temporary chairman ?
Mr. Venable. Nothing ; iust to preside.
Mr. Clawson. Wlio does have authority?
Mr. Venable. The delegates^ — I have no voting authority, and I
keep no books or records and have no business to look at them. They
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3595
elected a secretary, the gentleman I just spoke of, and if there was
any minutes or records or resolutions he would have them.
Mr. Clawsox. He would have more authority than the chairman,
then?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Clawson. Wlio delegates that authority ?
Mr. Venable. The delegates.
Mr. Clawson. Do they delegate the authority just to him?
Mr. Venable. Just him and his secretary. He takes down anything
or writes up anything. I have no jurisdiction over him.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venahle, paragraph 5 of your subpena calls upon
you to produce :
A copy of the constitution and by-laws of the Defensive Legion of Registered
Americans, Inc., and all books, records, documents, correspondence, and memo-
randa in your possession, custody, or control, maintained by or available to
you as President of the Defensive Legion of Registered Americans, Inc., pur-
suant to its constitution and by-laws, relating to the organization, business,
and affairs of the said Defensive Legion of Registered Americans, Inc., and its
aflBliated organizations, for the period from 1962 to date.
Mr. Venable. I produced all of tliem in my custody and control.
Now, Mr. Butterworth may have some. When he moved he took
some records. They may have been personal, I don't know. In fact,
he had taken everything of the corporation except those that I had for
income tax purposes. He may have had letters and so forth, I don't
know.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your knowledge, Mr. Venable, have you
complied Avith paragraph 5 of the subpena ?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Paragraph 6 calls upon you to produce :
A copy of the constitution and by-laws of the Christian Voters and Buyers
League, Inc., and all books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda
in your possession, custody, or control, maintained by or available to you as
President of the Christian Voters and Buyers League, Inc., pursuant to its con-
stitution and by-laws, relating to the organization, business, and affairs of the
said Christian Voters and Buyers League, Inc., and its affiliated organizations,
for the period from 1962 to date.
Mr. Venable. That would be included in a Defensive Legion.
That Avas merely a trade name used which was owned by the corpora-
tion.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your knowledge, have you complied
fully with paragraph 6 ?
Mr. Venable. Yes; other than if there are any others that Mr.
Butterworth would probably have, but I don't know.
Mr. Pool. The committee will stand in recess for 3 minutes.
(Brief recess)
Mr. Pool. Tlie committee will come to order.
Mr. Venable, I have been looking over this list of boycotted firms. I
have noticed that among them are included the Duncan Coffee and
Tea Company of Houston, Texas, and the Frito-Lay Company of
Dallas, Texas. I have watched these organizations grow from small —
even one-room operations — into large and great companies of the
United States. Their growth is a real tribute to the American system
of democracy and enterprise.
3596 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
You do not name any of their executives here. You do not show
any reason for induding them on the list. It is very unfair to have
listed companies such as these — which have struggled hard to grow
and contribute to the Nation's economy.
My feelings in this regard apply to the Gladiola-Dallas Company —
and Mrs. Baird's Bakery. Mrs. Baird began her operation by baking
birthday cakes. Little by little, her business increased. Through her
baking, she was able to put her four sons through college. The whole
family has contributed much to Dallas and even to the entire State,
as their operation has branched out to Houston and Forth Worth.
Her initiative is another tribute to American enterprise. It is an
insult to the American people to put out an irresponsible list like
this in criticism of people having done a good job.
Youngblood's in the kitchen business — this is another example.
Just like the others, they started with a small beginning. I am per-
sonally familiar with all of these companies and that is why I men-
tion them here. Many, many others on your list bear brand names
that are synonymous with the American way of life.
Anderson-Clayton has done an enormous amount of good in this
country and throughout the world. If it were not for the help of this
compaiiy in marketing the cotton of Texas throughout the world, our
State economy would not have boomed over a period of many yeai-s.
Anderson-Clayton has been an important element in international-
izing the economy of Texas and the United States.
It is a disservice to the Nation to publish a list like this. I am
pointing out your error with regard to companies I am personally
familiar with, and I want the record to show this.
I believe Mr. Clawson ran into one or two from California.
Mr. Venable. I am sure if you got Mr. Butterworth here to explain
this, he could explain it.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Butterworth cannot tell me anything about my own
Dallas concerns. I think I know more about them than he does. I
know" what I am talking about on these.
Mr. Venable. I am sure you are familiar with the companies.
Mr. Pool. I am sure the same list has the same inaccuracies and
assumptions all the way through it. I think the whole thing is wrong
anyhow, to say that something is bad and you should not buy it just
because Jewish people have something to do with it. I think that is a
wrong assumption. I think the Jewish people have done a lot in
this world to make America great and I want to be sure that gets in
the record, too.
Mr. Venable. I hold no ill will, Mr. Chairman, against any race,
color, or creed. Some of the best friends I got are Jewish people.
Mr. Pool. This is the most assinine thing I have seen the Ku Klux
Klan do yet.
Mr. Venable. The Ku Klux Klan didn't doit.
Mr. Pool. Then Mr. Butterworth, because he is connected with it.
You signed the letter.
Mr. Venable. He was connected with it.
Mr. Pool. You should have checked up on what you were signing.
Mr. Clawson.
Mr. Clawson. You have some listed here in California, such as the
Breakfast Club, and there are others such as the Folgers and MJB
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3597
and Maxwell House. All of these companies — Nescafe, Old Dutch —
I imagine if you went through all of these pages, some hundred or so
pages, there would be very few firms that you could still do business
with.
Mr. Pool. I think this committee can write legislation to stop this
kind of action and I am glad this came up, because if this is going on,
we should certainly be able to write legislation to stop this kind of
thing.
Mr. Clawson. Does this become a part of the record ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, I would ask that all documents Mr. Venable has
turned over to the committee and all documents we will go into with
Mr. Venable during his testimony will be made a part of the record.
Mr. Pool. Thank you.
We will be glad to do it.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, as far as the National Association of
Ku Klux Klans is concerned, to your best knowledge other than your-
self and Mr. Shearouse, w^hom you have already identified as the
secretary, who are the other officers of the association ?
Mr. Venable. They are elected officers, and I couldn't name them
other than myself and Mr. Shearouse. I am sure he has a list of
them.
Mr. Manuel. When was the last time the association held^
Mr. Venable. Some months ago they elected officers of the asso-
ciation to preside in the difi'erent chairs when they meet, you know, but
in truth and in fact it was always in a rush to transact any business.
They never did open and close just like a Klavern should or like a
kloncilium should.
Mr. Manuel. Did the National Association hold an election in
September of 1964?
Mr. Venable. I don't know what date it was. I know they had one
and I was retained as temporary chairman and Mr. Shearouse was
maintained as secretary, but I don't know the date or the month. I
don't want to testify to something I don't know about, dates or times.
Mr. Manuel. In September of 1964 the committee investigation
has determined that there was an election of the National Association
held and that you, as you have stated, were reelected to the position
of chairman and Mr. I. T. Shearouse, Jr., known as Ted Shearouse,
was elected to the position of kligrapp or secretary.
Mr. Venable. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. To your direct knowledge, Mr. Venable was Mr. P.
L. Morgan of Louisiana elected to the position of klaliff, or vice presi-
dent.
Mr. Venable. That I couldn't tell, other than myself and secre-
tary. I couldn't call the names. If you read them, I am sure your
notes are correct, but the secretary would have that knowledge.
Mr. Manuel. I am asking you as the chairman.
Mr. Venable. I wouldn't say he was or w^asn't, other than myself
and the secretary.
Mr. Manuel. Is the basis of your answer, Mr. Venable, that you do
not know ?
Mr. Venable. I would know these people if you called the names,
but as to how they was elected and what position they were elected to.
I haven't got any notes on that.
3598 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever know Mr. P. L. Morgan of Louisiana
who served as the klaliff or vice president of the National Association ?
Mr. Venable. Vice president ?
Mr. Manuel. The klaliff or the vice president or vice chairman.
Mr. Venable. He may have been elected. The reason — as I told
you, sometimes when they would meet, you know, some person would
fill the chair like this committee here, not the chairman, and I would
be busy trying to wait on the delegates, feed them, and so forth.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know Mr, P. L. Morgan to be a delegate to
the National Association ?
Mr. Venable. I know him to be the delegate, but as any officer I
don't know.
Mr. Manuel. Is he a delegate from the Klan group known as the
Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Venable. That group I don't know what name it is. I know
Mr. Morgan.
Mr. Manuel. Was Mr. Charles H. Maddox, of Bloomingdale,
Georgia, who was a delegate from the Association of Georgia Klans
elected to the position of klokard ?
Mr. Venable. That I don't know. I know that his organization
was or has been a member of the association.
Mr. Manuel. Did you know Mr. Charles Maddox to be a delegate
from that association ?
Mr. Venable. He has come there as a delegate.
Mr. Manuel. Did you know Mr. H. G. Hill of Atlanta to be elected
to the position of kludd in the National Association ?
Mr. Venable. Of the National Association ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know Mr. Walter
Mr. Venable. I don't know what he was elected to. I know he is
a member of it.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know Mr. Walter Rogers of the United
Florida [Ku Klux] Klan to be elected to the position of kladd?
Mr. Venable. I couldn't state what position he is elected to. I am
familiar with Mr. Rogers.
Mr. Manuel. Is Mr. Rogers to your direct knowledge, or has he
been, a delegate to the National Association from the United Florida
Klan?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir ; he has attended some of the meetings, not
all of the meetings. I know Mr. Rogers. I don't know what is the
name of his group in Florida. There are several groups there.
Mr. Manuel. Has Mr. Flynn Harvey of Columbus, Ohio, ever held
the position of klexter, or outer guard in the association ?
Mr. Venable. He had attended some meetings but I don't know
whether he was elected an officer, or outer guard or inner guard.
Mr. Manuel. Was he a delegate to the National Association?
Mr. Venable. He was a delegate there on maybe one or two oc-
casions.
Mr. Manuel, What Klan did he represent ?
Mr, Venable, The National Knights,
Mr. Manuel. The National Knights ?
Mr. Venable. At that time ; yes.
Mr. Manuel. Of which you are the Imperial Wizard ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3599
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Robert Hodges, delegate from the Associa-
tion of South Carolina Klans ever hold the position of night-hawk in
the association ?
Mr. Venable. That I couldn't say. I know he has attended as a
delegate, but his holding of any position I don't know, you know. I
wouldn't say he did or didn't.
Mr. Manltel. Subsequent to this election, Mr. Venable, which was
held in September of 1964, to your knowledge, was Mr. Murry H.
Martin of the Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan from Louisiana
appointed to the position of klokann chief of the National Association ?
Mr. Venable. I know Mr. Martin has attended, but as far as his
holding that position or elected, I couldn't say without having any
records which are not available to me. I know they elected officers to
fill the chairs when they had meetings, but who they elected other than
me and the secretary, I couldn't say.
Mr. Manuel. Again, so the record is straight, I would like to ask
you questions pertaining to each organization which is a member of
the National Association and the identification of the delegates, which
information the committee has partially in its possession. I would
ask you to affirm our information.
Is a member of the association a group called the Association of
South Carlolina Klans ?
Mr. Venable. It is a member of the National Klan Association,
but, as I stated, they send different delegates. They come on there.
There may be one this time and another one the next time.
Mr. Manuel. Is Mr. Eobert Hodges of Columbia, South Carolina, a
member of that organization ?
Mr. Venable. Wlien he comes he is a delegate, you know, but he
could send one or two to represent him. He would be a delegate.
Mr. Manuel. Has Mr. Aubrey Bolen or Mr. Cecil Mims ever been
a delegate to the convention ?
Mr. Venable. I believe the gentlemen's names register as delegates,
not at all times but on certain occasions.
Mr. Manuel. Have Mr. P. L. Morgan and L. G. Wilder and Mr.
Hunter of Coushatto, Louisiana, been delegates to the National
Association meetings ?
Mr Venable. I would not say they have or have not. They are
not names that were familiar with me. It doesn't register with me.
I wouldn't say they have or have not.
Mr. Manuel. Has Mr. Morgan ?
Mr. Venable. Mr. Morgan has. He has been a delegate.
Mr. Manuel. Has Mr. Wilder ?
Mr. Venable. I wouldn't know unless I could see that gentleman,
you know. Vei'y few of the names I know. I know lots of their
faces. I know Mr. Morgan has.
Mr. Manuel. Is the Improved Order of U.S. Klans a member of
the national organization?
Mr. Venable. That is Mr. George ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Venable. They have off and on for the last year or two. They
would not send delegates all the time. Mr. George has been sick.
3600 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. Has Mr. George been a delegate to the convention?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Has Mr. Ira DeBolt been a representative to every
convention of the national organization ?
Mr. Venable. I believe Mr. DeBolt has attended several. I don't
know whether he came as Mr. George's delegate or not, but I know he
come with Mr. George one time.
Mr. Manuel. Has Mr. Murry H. Martin from the State of Louisi-
ana been a delegate to the national oro;anizntion?
Mr. Venable. I know we have some Florida Klans, a Klan or Klans
down there, but I don't know the names of them. They have had some
representatives or delegates.
Mr. Manuel. Has Mr. Jason Kersey from New Smyrna Beach,
Florida, been there ?
Mr. Venable. Yes ; he has been there but he has been incapacitated.
He has had a heart, attack or something.
Mr. Manitel. Has Mr. Walter Rogers of Tallahassee, Florida, been a
delegate?
Mr. Venable. I have seen him there.
Mr. Manuel. Does the Association of Georgia Klans send delegates
to the National Association ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manltel. Have Mr. Ted Shea rouse and Mr. Norton Anderson
and Mr. Charles Maddox served as delegates ?
Mr. Venable. Mr. Andersons' name doesn't register with me. I
know Mr. Shearouse and Mr Maddox. I may know Mr. Anderson,
but, you know, the name wouldn't register.
Mr. Manltel. Mr. Venable, would you please tell the committee, as
of the current time, how many Klaverns or units are in existence of the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Venable. We got one at Tucker and I think we got a small one
over in Alabama
Mr. Manuel. Wliat citv ?
Mr. Venable. Hartwell. I have not attended one in Hartwell. I
have been over there on occasions. Tucker, you know, we Avould meet
there, not too often.
In the State of Ohio, I have never attended a Klavern, you know,
what we call a Klavern, as I recall, you know. I mean I have been up
there on many meetings, with rallies, you know, but I don't know if
there is a Klavern in Ohio or not. To my own personal knowledge, I
have not received any fees or any dues from any of them up there.
Mr. Manuel. Wliat city in Alabama does the National Knights have
a Klavern ?
Mr. Venable. They have a small Klavern, I believe, in Centre,
Alabama.
Mr. Manuel. Who are the leaders in Centre?
Mr. Venable. There are about 20 there, but I don't know who the
officers are. I have been there. I met all of them. I mean, I have just
seen everybody, but I couldn't name them by name and whether they
were officers because I don't know wlien they were installed or anything.
Mr. Manuel. How long has that Klavern been there?
Mr. Venable. Maybe a year or less, or maybe a little longer.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3601
Mr. Manuel. Was Mr. Ray McGriff, Mr. Holcombe, or Mr. Curtis
King instrumental in organizing' that Klavern?
Mr. Venable. That I don't know, whether they was instrumental
or who was. I gave Mr. Holcombe a couj)le of charters. He said he
was going to try to start a couple of Klaverns, you know, but I don't
know whether he started them or under what names or whether he
started this one in Centre or not.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge has Mr. Holcombe started a
Klavern of the National Knights in Barnesville, Georgia?
Mr. Venable. That I don't know. I understood there w^as some
Klavern. I never received any sums of moneys or dues or applications
from there.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Holcombe or Mr. McGriff ever report to you
that there was a Klavern of the National Knights ?
Mr. Venable. No; they never reported it to me. They said they
was trying to get one organized. I don't know whether it was at
Griffin or Barnesville or College Park. I never attended any Klavern
in that city there where they were organizing.
Mr. Manuel. Have Mr. McGriff and Mr. Holcombe acted as orga-
nizers for the National Knights to your knowledge ?
Mr. Venable. Mr. Holcombe has tried to organize, and I guess Mr.
McGriff may have helped him.
Mr. Manuel. Have Mr. Holcombe and Mr. McGriff, to your knowl-
edge, acted as members of degree teams in the State of Ohio?
Mr. Venable. They made, I believe, two trips up there. We was
trying to get a degree team. Mr. Morris wanted to initiate some people
up there, and I asked Mr. Holcombe if he could get a degree team, and
he did carry a degree team or a degree team was sent up there.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, has Mr. Holcombe or Mr. McGriff ever
given you a list of members they have taken into the National Knights
of theKuKluxKlan?
Mr. Venable. No, sir; I have never had any list or any application
from any source from them where they had taken in any members.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, were they acting as organizers
into the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Venable. They never did tell me they was either. Mr. Hol-
combe said he was trying to get some Klaverns started, but I never got
any applications.
Mr. Manuel. Would persons that they initiated into the Klavern
of the National Knights be members in your eyes?
Mr. Venable. They would not be members unless they was initiated
in the National. They would fill in the application and pay their
klectokon fees, you know.
Mr. Manuel. Would they have the power to do this, accept applica-
tions, take money
Mr. Venable. No ; they would not have the power unless an appli-
cation was signed by the applicant and okayed by that committee or
that Klavern or the memberships of that Klavern and they would
process them themselves.
Mr. Manuel. How often has that taken place in the National
Knights ?
Mr. Venable. Out at Tucker, we met on many occasions to initiate
some aliens, as you call them.
3602 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr, Manuel. To your knowledge has Mr. Cecil Myers or Mr. Joseph
Howard Sims been initiated into membership ?
Mr. Venable. Not to my knowledge, not in the National. I under-
stood Mr. Sims was a member of the United, you know. That I under-
stood, but I don't know it to be a fact. I heard that and I read it in
the paper.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge has Mr. Sims or Mr. Myers ever
attended national meetings of the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan?
Mr. Venable. Not to my knowledge at a Klavern. They could have,
but I don't know whether they did or not.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, I would like to show you an article from
the Portland, Maine, Press Herald dated October 13, 1965, and this
article has a picture of Cecil Myers wearing a black shirt, a member of
the Ku Klux Klan threatening Brig Cabe, a Negro photographer, at
Crawfordville, Georgia. The caption reads "Klansmen Disrupt Negro
March To Church In Ga."
The following paragraphs were included in this article, after this
alleged attack took place on the Negro photographer.
Mr. Sims told newsmen, and he is quoted as follows :
"We are still in the Klan but we are not in Craig's Klan. We have the same
basic beliefs." Craig heads the Georgia branch of the United Klans of America.
Sims said he and Myers belong to the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
headed by attorney James Venable of Stone Mountain, Ga., and a rival of the
United Klans.
The National Knights, Sims said, differ from the other group in that they
"want a little more action."
He identified himself and Myers as "black knights." He also referred to some
organization other than the National Knights.
"We don't care to identify our organization. We have a leader," he said.
"Most of our people are in Alabama."
Mr. Venable, I invite your inspection of this particular article which
I have just read and ask, to your certain knowledge, whether Mr. Sims
and Mr. Myers, as Mr. Sims stated to the news people, were members of
the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Venable. I have never received an application from them.
I have never seen them initiated in any Klavern of the National
Knights. If they were initiated it was unknown to me, and what
Klavern. I have no knowledge.
(Document marked "James Venable Exhibit No. 6" appears on pp.
3603, 3604.)
Mr. Pool. Are you saying that you don't know whether they are
members or not?
Mr. Venable. That is right, I don't know if they are members. I
didn't see them swear them in; I don't know what Klavern they
belong to. I mean, in the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc.
They could be unknown to my knowledge. I guess there is a lot of
people belonging to it that I couldn't say either was or was not.
Mr. Pool. Have you ever met them in a Klaveni ?
Mr. Venable. I met this gentleman here this week, back here, I
believe his name is Sims, to know him personally.
Mr. Pool. That is the first time you met him ?
Mr. Venable. I have seen his picture in the papers, in the national
newsprint, and I read this article but I never had any knowledge of
this article until today.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
3603
James Venable Exhibit No. 6
[Portland, Maine, Press Herald, Oct. 13, 1965]
Flees Klansman
Cecil Myers, wearing black .shirt, a member of the Kii Klux Klan. threat-
ens Brig Cabe, a Negro photographer, ar CrawfordvUie. Ga , Tuesday.
3604
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
James Venable Exhibit No. 6— Continued
Klansmen Disrupt Negro
March To Church In Ga.
CRAWFORDVILLE, Ga.
fAP) — Two Ku Klux Klansmen
tried to attack a Negro photog-
rapher Tuesday during a two-
mile civil rights march to a Ne-
gro church where demonstra-
tors have been meeting for sev-
eral weeks.
The Klansmen were tried and
acquitted for the slaying last
year of a Washington, D.C., Ne-
gro educator on a lonely north-
east Georgia road.
Cecil Myers and John Howard
Sims broke past two state troop-
ers as an estimated 100 march-
ers approached the Negro
church in this rural town.
One trooper grabbed Sims.
But Myers charged past and
chased the photographer, Brig
Cabe, who works for the South-
ern Christian Leadership Con-
ference.
Myers made a diving lunge at
Cabe and both fell to the
ground. Troopers quickly pulled
the two apart. Myers was
charged with assault and later
released on $100 bond posted by
Crawfordville citizens.
Sims was questioned and re-
leased and then threatened to
take a camera from another
photographer. But a state troop-
er intervened and Sims walked
away.
Cabe was charged with poss-
ession of fireworks, which is
against the law in Georgia, and
was held in custody. Lt. Col.
E.B. Harbin, deputy director of
the State Department of Public
Safety, said the Negro youth
had a firecracker in his posses-
sion.
Myers and Sims were charged
with the murder of Lemuel
Penn last year and later acquit-
ted. The Negro educator was
shot while driving through
Georgia en route to Washington
from summer camp at Ft. Ben-
ning, Ga. A third Klansman,
James Lackey, was arrested
but never brought to trial.
The incident on the return
march from the courthouse oc-
curred some hours after nearly
200 Negro demonstrators
swarmed into the Crawfordville
Negro school and sat in the hall-
ways singing and clapping.
State troopers removed Ed-
ward Bedford of the Southern
Christian Leadership Confer-
ence, the organization headed
by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
which is directing the civil
rights drive.
The protest started when all
the white pupils in Taliaferro
County transferred to surround-
ing counties in the face of inte-
gration.
Frank Bates, another SCLC
worker, told the demonstrators
the state troopers wanted them
to leave. "Do you want to
move?" he asked.
"No!" shouted the group sit-
ting on the floor.
Bedford. 22, and Bates, 17,
were arrested. Bates was sitting
on the floor at the time, and a
trooper pulled him to his feet.
The demonstrators returned
to their church headquarters
where WiUie Bolden of the SCLC
charged there had been police
brutality and announced a
march to the courthouse.
He taunted state troopers dur-
ing the courthouse rally. "This
is what you call a legalized Ku
Klux Klan," he said.
About 60 troopers are in
Crawfordville.
On the march back to the
church Myers and Sims at-
tempted to get at the Negro
photographer. Troopers quickly
put Cabe in a car and took him
down the road and let him out.
Myers, who has a black
beard, was wearing a green
military-looking cap. black trou-
sers and a black shirt. There
was no immediate explanation
for the outfit he was wearing.
Cabe started shooting pictures
of Myers and Sims as they ap-
proached escorted by two troop-
ers. It was then they tried to
break away.
While Myers and Sims were
being questioned, W.E. Watson,
chairman of the Taliaferro
County Commission, told the
Klansmen that they had made
"fools of themselves." He said
they had "played into the hands
of the Negro demonstrators."
W.G. Bird, who identified
himself as a local supporter of
the United Klans of America,
said Myers and Sims were not
associated with his group — the
group headed by Robert M.
Shelton Jr. of Tuscaloosa, Ala.
Bird said the two men were
connected with the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan,
the group which held a rally in
Crawfordville on Monday night.
He said the United Klans had
sought to keep white spectators
away from Negro demonstra-
tors in recent days.
Sims told newsmen that, "We
are still in the Klan but we are
not in Craig's Klan. We have the
same basic beliefs." Craig
heads the Georgia branch of the
United Klans of America.
Sims said he and Myers be-
long to the National Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan headed by
attorney James Venable of
Stone Mountain, Ga., and a ri-
val of the United Klans.
The National Knights. Sims
said, differ from the other group
in that they "want a little more
action."
He identified himself and
Myers as "black knights." He
also referred to some organiza-
tion other than the National
Knights.
"We don't care to identify our
organization. We have a lead-
er," he said. "Most of our peo-
ple are in Alabama."
Capt. Arthur L. Hutchins ot
the Georgia Bureau of Inves-
tigation, said he did not believe
the men belonged to any new
Klan group but merely dressed
in black and Myers wore the
beard "to be different."
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3605
Mr. Pool. Did you ask him if he was a member ?
Mr. Venable. No ; I didn't ask him whether he was or wasn't.
Mr. Pool. Did lie tell you he was a member ?
Mr. Venable. He never told me he was a member of the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Clawson. Time after time, you said you don't know because
you didn't see them sworn in, or you didn't swear them in. Is that
a reason for not knowing? I doubt if you ever saw 435 Members of
Congress sworn in, but you know they are sworn in.
Mr. Venable. I couldn't swear unless I had a record where he was
initiated or I witnessed it.
Mr. Clawson. You don't know anything except what you see?
Mr. Venable. That is right ; unless some member of that Klavern
or the EC of that Klavern says he swore in certain people, then I
would know it. I have seen them swear in certain people out at
Tucker.
Mr. Clawson. I would say you have a very limited knowledge of
the organization.
Mr. Venable. We have a small Klavern and like most of them we
are a small Klan.
Mr. Pool. Are you willing to repudiate these men right now?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir; if they belong to this National Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan Association, I mean this corporation here, which
I am Imperial Wizard of, I will banish them here in this committee,
I put them on notice they are here and now banished.
Mr. Pool. Is that what you are doing right now ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir; and if they belong to any Klavern and I
w^ll see in that Klavern that they get a trial and we can prefer
charges against them.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should show that in
the records which Mr. Venable turned over to the committee, there
were two letters, both dated October 7, 1965, one addressed to Mr. Earl
Holcombe at 2520 Jonesboro Road, care of Aliens Trailer Park, Lot
C-13, Atlanta, Georgia :
Dear Earl :
Please do not use the name of National Knights of The Ku Klux Klan, Inc.,
in any Klavern or any public rallies, or use or hand out any of our literature.
If you are operating any Klaverns at Lakewood, College Park, Barnesville or
Grifl3n, Georgia, or any other location, please advise all concerned that your
Klaverns, if any you have, are not in any way connected with the National
Knights of The Ku Klux Klan, Inc.,
Yours very truly,
/s/ James R. Venable
James R. Venable,
Imperial Wizard,
National Knights of The Ku Klux Klan, Inc.
Mr. Pool. To whom was that addressed ?
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Holcombe.
Another letter is addressed to Ray McGriff, Post Office Box 615,
Barnesville, Georgia, dated October 7, 1965, which states exactly the
same as the letter to Mr. Earl Holcombe.
Now, Mr. Venable, I hand you these letters and ask you whether if
in fact you did write these identical letters to Mr. Holcombe and Mr.
McGriff.
59-222 O— 67— pt. 5 9
3606 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir, I dictated these letters to Mr. H. G.
McBrayer, a young lawyer who does our typing there in the office.
(Documents marked "James Venable Exhibits Nos. 7-A and 7-B,"
respectively. Exhibit 7-A retained in committee files ; 7-B follows :)
Mr. Ray McGrlff
p o Rox tM^'C/V
James Venable Exhibit No. 7-B
October 7, 1965
S#i!#ftn, ^Georgia
Dear Ray:
please do not use the naae o/ National Knights of The Ku
vriux Klan, Inc. In any Klavern or any public rallies,
or use or hand out any of our literature.
If you are operating any Klavcrns at Lakeiiood, Ocflege
Park, Barnesvllle or Griffin, Geotrgla, or any other
location, please advise all concerned that your Klavorns,
if any you have, are not in any way connected with the
National Knights of The Ku Klux Klan, Inc.
Yours very tx&y,
j^anes 1? . Venable
Imperial 'Izard
Natiaial Knights of The Ku Klux Klan, Inc.
copy to:
!;ay McGriff
c/o litchell Brothers Air Conditioning Coapany
^^arnesville, Georgia
Mr. Manuel. Why did you write those letters ?
Mr. Venable. I learned while I was here some time in October this
thing I read it in newsprint down at Crawfordville. And I learned
prior to that the concern about these two boys coming here from Ohio
and, in order to protect this organization, I thought it would be neces-
sary, as I understood they had been holding meetings or maybe dis-
tributing literature.
Mr. Manuel. Prior to the time you wrote this letter, did in fact
Mr. Ray McGriff and Mr. Earl Holcombe start Klaverns in the Na-
tional Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Venable. Mr. Holcombe, as I said, said he was going to try to
get two or three started.
Mr. Manuel. Was he ever authorized by you to do this?
Mr. Venable. If he could get some started there, but if he got them
he would have to process the applications and notify me where he was
starting these Klaverns and how many people he had. But he never
has. I have never had a report from either him or McGriif that they
had a Klavern at Griffin or Barnesville or any place else.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3607
Mr. Manuel. Did you conduct any investigation with regard to the
activities of Mr. McGriff and Mr. Holcombe concerning their initiation
and their recruiting on behalf of the National Knights?
Mr. Venable. A^Hien I learned these things here I asked Mr.
McGriff, I had him come to my office, and he denied these things to me.
Mr. Manuel. Which things ?
Mr. Venable. About this trip of these two young people, Klansmen,
these subjects from Ohio on coming into Georgia.
Mr. Manuel. Did he deny this ?
Mr. Venable. And I told Mr. Holcombe not to go in these places
where there was a riot or any kind of march of any race, color, or creed
because it might cause trouble. Stay out of them.
Mr. Manuel. Wlien did Mr. McGriff deny to you that he had been
involved in any act concerning people from Ohio ?
Mr. Venable. Both of them denied it. I faced them when I learned
after these subjects were arrested there and after Mr. Morris, who
had told me about it, he come by my office and told me about it.
Mr. Manuel. When did Mr. Morris come by your office and tell
you about it ?
Mr. Venable. I think maybe the day he made a visit to the FBI
and somebody called me from up in Ohio, and I had a communication,
a letter, that a newspaper sent from Ohio. That is the first knowledge
I had of this.
Mr. Manuel. What was the approximate date of that, Mr. Venable ?
Mr. Venable. That I couldn't say. Mr. Morris would know what
day he went to the FBI, that is the first knowledge I had.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, are you acquainted with Mrs. Eloise
Witte?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir ; I met her in Ohio, I believe, when I was up
there to speak at an NAAWP in Cincinnati. I have forgotten the year.
Maybe it was 1963 or 1964, or some period in along there.
Mr. Manuel. Was she a member of the National Knights of the
KuKluxKlan?
Mr. Venable. She become a member after it become chartered up
there.
Mr. Manuel. When did she become a member of the National
Knights?
Mr. Venable. That I don't know. That was one of the letters that
somebody got that I had commissioned her up there, but as to the date,
I don't know when it was, probably 1964 or 1965.
Mr. Manuel. Where was she initiated ?
Mr. Venable. She was initiated in Chattanooga, Tennessee.
Mr. Pool. What was she initiated into ?
Mr. Venable. The National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, you
know.
Mr. Pool. She testified the other day that she was in the auxiliary
and not the actual Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Venable. She was initiated into the National Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan in Chattanooga, Tennessee.
Mr. Pool. Not the auxiliary, but the actual Klan ?
Mr. Venable. I mean she had taken an oath, which is practically
the same. She is initiated in the National Knights in a chapter where
men were present, in Chattanooga, Tennessee.
3608 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. Could she attend all the meetings ?
Mr. Venable. No ; on certain occasions on initiation and when you
have open joint meetings the ladies can attend, you know, but they
hold different chapters or Klaverns from the men when they organize
and operate.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mrs. Witte ever act as an organizer in Ohio for
the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Venable. I understood she did from Mr. Morris up there. He
went up there in the summer — I believe it was last year, or maybe
the year before that. I know I met her out at Mr. Scott's farm up
there, and she was passing applications around and receiving moneys,
you know, from applicants.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, are there any ladies' units in Ohio
of which she could be the Grand Empress ?
Mr. Venable. That I don't know, other than Mrs. Foster told me
she attended one somewhere, maybe in Cincinnati, some ladies where
they did meet. I don't know whether it was a chapter or Klavern. It
may have just been a meeting of certain ladies.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know of any organized Klan unit in the State
of Ohio?
Mr. Venable. Organized Klan unit ?
Mr. Manuel. Organized Klan.
Mr. Venable. To my personal knowledge, I don't know of any. I
heard there was one up around Cleveland and I heard of one in Cleve-
land from attending this meeting here, but I have not attended any
meetings or seen anyone initiated up there. I heard they did or may
have one in Cincinnati up there.
Mr. Manuel. But you don't know exactly ?
Mr. Venable. I have not received any of the fees from any mem-
bership or from dues there.
Mr. Manuel. Who are the leaders of the Klan movement in Ohio
for the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Venable. The only man we got is Mr. Parkie Scott. He is an
organizer. That is about all. We may have some individual people
that is working.
Mr. Manuel. Was Mr. James Scott ever an organizer ?
Mr. Venable. Mr. who ?
Mr. Manuel. I am sorry. Mr. James Harris.
Mr. Venable. Of what Klan ?
Mr. Manuel. Of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Venable. Now, I met Mr. Harris, I believe, at Parkie Scott's
first time they had a Klan rally. He was there, and Mr. Morris intro-
duced me to Mr. Harris, and I met Mr. Harris a second time. I believe
he attended a — what we call open rally there in Stone Mountain in
Georgia.
Mr. Pool. Did he identify what Klan he belonged to?
Mr. Venable. He never did. I think he was trying to become a
Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan, maybe of the National. I heard recently
that he become a member of the United Klan. I don't know that to
be sure — just rumors.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, is the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan currently active in the State of Ohio?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3609
Mr. Venable. Not too active. We liave a few people, I am sure,
left up there.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have any connection with the Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Venable. Yes; I was trying to to help in that field there be-
cause Mr. Morris felt that if we could unite the Klans we could operate
it under the old name, the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. IVIanuel. What was the reason for the change of the name in
Ohio from the National Knights to the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Venable. In discussing it with him and some of the delegates
at these various meetings, they wanted to get back to tlie old name,
the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and confer definite degrees.
Mr. Manuel. In the records w^hich you turned over to the commit-
tee this morning, there was included in the correspondence a letter
dated July 8, 1965, addressed to "Mr. Flyn Harvey" of 418 South Jo-
sephine Avenue, Columbus 4, Oliio, which reads as follows :
Dear Flyn :
Your letter handed to Mrs. Foster and received by me. I am .sorry that I did
not get to talk with you in person but I was suffering with dysentary [sic] which
struck me before we got there and I was forced to fly back Sunday instead of
making the trip back with the rest of the boys.
I note that you are organizing a KKK known as the Ohio Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan and I am sure that you will make a great success there. Since the
charter of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan was revolked [sic] in Ohio
we can not legally operate there in that name therefore Mr. Morris is operating
under the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan which is not a chartered organization,
just an association. I suggest that you confer with some lawyer and see about
your trade name and comply with the law.
I find that Ohio is like the rest of the States. Everyone would like to be a
chief and have no Indians. I suggest that everybody bury the hatchet and start
over with plenty of Indians.
Please write me the news and give my regards to your wife and children,
and, 1 remain, as ever,
Your friend,
/s/ James R. Venable
James R. Venable.
Mr. Venable, did you write this letter to Mr. Flynn Harvey ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
(Document marked "James Venable Exhibit No. 8" and retained
in committee files. )
Mr. Manuel. Could you explain to the committee your statement
to Mr. Harvey concerning the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Venable. When I was up there at a rally at Parkie Scott's farm,
I got sick with ptomaine poison and was late getting there.
And Mr. Harvey, I understand, arrived there, but I was unable to
meet with him because I had to go to bed there. And I understood
from people in and around there that there were applications circulat-
ing around there. Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. I was told that he
had organized one, or attempted to organize, you know, not for the
National Association or the National Knights, Inc., but as an in-
dividual Klan.
Mr. ]Manuel. What is the meaning of your statement to Mr. Harvey
that National Knights are no longer legally able to operate and now
the Kniijhts of the Ku Klux Klan under Mr. Mori:is will operate in
the State of Ohio.
3610 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Venable. Mr. Morris was trying to organize the Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan. Mr. Morris was trying to organize a Ku Klux
Klan group, probably similar names.
Mr. Manuel. That is not really my question. Let me rephrase it.
Is the organization known as the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ac-
tually a device that is made up by the Klan so that the Klan can do
business in the State of Ohio ?
Mr. Venable. No ; as I said, the association and the delegates there
was under the impression and was under the belief if they could
use the original name to organize the Klan, it would be better to go
back to the original name.
When we got up there, I found out Mr. Harvey had started him
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, you know, and I just wanted to con-
gratulate the man. There is no connection. I didn't want him to
feel that I had any hard feelings against him or any Klan group up
there that was trying to organize.
He had felt that I had ignored him, and I wanted to let him know
that I had no ill will against him. If he could organize himself
a Klan group up there, that was fine.
But that was no connection with the one of Mr. Morris nor the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Manuel. I want to refer to this part of your letter again to
see if I can approach it in another way :
Since the charter of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan was revolked
[sic] in Ohio we cannot legally operate there in that name, therefore Mr. Morris
is operating under the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan which is not a chartered
organization, just an association.
Now, my question is : Is this an attempt to circumvent the law in
the State of Ohio?
Mr. Venable. No, sir; it wasn't any attempt to circumvent any
law in Ohio because Mr. Harvey had a right to use that name, "Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan," which can be used by any group that wants
to. Nobody had any jurisdiction or nobody has the right to
Mr. Manuel. Did you feel that since the charter of the National
Knights was revoked in Ohio that a new organization, namely, the
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan would be the one to recruit and
organize ?
Mr. Venable. Not me, because that was Harvey's individual group,
and I didn't want him to feel tliat I held any malice, and neither did
Mr. Morris hold any malice.
Mr. Manuel. I am not speaking of Mr. Harvey's group, Mr. Ven-
able. I am speaking of Mr. Morris' group.
Mr. Venable. Mr. Morris was trying to organize a group up there
under his authority as Emperor, which I had nothing to do with it.
Mr. Manuel. Was his effort really then for the National Ku Klux
Klan?
Mr. Venbale. No ; it was individual acts to try to get a united Klan
throughout the United States called the Ku Klux Klan. That was on
his part there, which I had nothing to do with it other than to help
any Klan group.
Mr. Manuel. As far as the State of Ohio is concerned, does the Na-
tional Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and the Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan share membership ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S. 3611
Mr. Venable. That I couldn't answer. We got some members that
originally joined. I don't know whether Mr. Morris has any up there
or whether Mr. Flynn Harvey has any up there.
Mr. Pool. The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Venable. Mr. Manuel, I w^ill try to make myself clear on that
letter.
Flynn Harvey had pulled out. In fact, he couldn't get the Klan in
the National Knights off the ground. He had pulled out of this orga-
nization which I helped, and I learned that he was trying to organize
him a Klan group up there and I was merely congratulating him and
telling him to try to comply with the laws. It wasn't that he was work-
ing in conflict with me or Mr. Morris.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, I think the statement in the letter con-
cerning the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and Mr. Morris'
operation in the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan speaks for itself.
Mr. Venable. Mr. Harvey was not connected with us then when
that letter was sent, and I was merely trying to keep friendship with
him. I didn't want to have any hard feelings, and Mr. Morris didn't
either.
Mr. Manuel. I understand.
Mr. Venable, how many public rallies did you attend in the State of
Ohio?
Mr. Venable. That I couldn't say, you know. I don't know. I at-
tended one or two at Parkie Scott's, maybe three.
Do you mean Klan rallies ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Venable. I made one to Brunswick and one to Lodi.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your knowledge, did the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan realize any money as the result of those
rallies?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir; I believe you have my books there, and it
shows, I believe, we got from Ohio — Mrs. Scott paid me, I think $600
at one time. She paid $400 and two or three other times, all of the
money I got out of Ohio.
Mr. Manuel. Where is the money you got out of Ohio ?
Mr. Venable. The Klan got it, the National Knights. I don't know
from what rallies it was obtained. I obtained these sums of moneys
at various times, you know. You have the records that shows it.
Mr. Manuel. Could you tell the committee how much money you
realized out of the operation ?
Mr. Venable. I didn't realize anything out of it. It was a dead
expense to me going up there, going to and from, flying, sometimes
using my time.
Mr. Manuel. How many members did the National Knights get
as a result of those rallies ?
Mr. Venable. I don't know. The only records I have are the sums
of moneys I mentioned there.
Mr. Manuel. Didn't any of the Klan organizers in Ohio report to
you in any way, shape, or form ?
Mr. Venable. No, sir ; I haven't had any report from any of them
except the financial report which I stated to you which the books show.
3612 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
I was sent in 1964 from Ohio, I believe, $135.60 and some others from
other sources.
Mr. Manuel. Does your organization rely on organizers to go out
and pass out applications and get members and is this done, Mr. Ven-
able, without your knowledge ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I rely on the people in the neighborhood to
try to get neighbors. That is the only thing we can rely on.
Mr. Manuel. How do you find out who your members are ?
Mr. Venable. You only find out wno tne memuers are wnen you
have an organized Klavern, you know. You can find out the numbers
of it when you go in there. Klaverns are organized and they have
certain members in it.
Mr. Manuel. What has happened to all of the people who have
filled out applications and taken the oath in the State of Ohio? You
tell me that you have no knowledge of any organized Klavern in
Ohio.
Mr. Venable. I don't know how many has been initiated except the
two occasions. Some were initiated on one occasion at Parkie Scott's,
where I was present. There was the time I was sick. I didn't actually
witness that, and then another occasion at Lodi, but I had nothing to
do with the processing the applications. They were done by Mrs.
Scott.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, are there any members of the
National Knights in Ohio ?
Mr. Venable. That I couldn't say. I never got a financial report.
The number of applications has never been sent to me.
Mr. Manuel. In other words, it is possible that you have a certain
number of members in the State of Ohio of which you have no knowl-
edge of their existence or activities?
Mr. Venable. It could be; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Is that the case with the State of Ohio?
Mr. Venable. I don't know. I presume it could be, you know.
I don't know.
Mr. Manuel. Is that also the case with respect to the State of
Georgia concerning the National Knights?
Mr. Venable. Well, I don't know how many members we got there.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know where the Klaverns are located ?
Mr. Venable. The only ones where they got a Klavern is at Hart-
well and a Klavern located at Tucker, Georgia. We haven't got but
very few there.
Mr. Manuel. Who in the State of Georgia
Mr. Venable. And there is a small one over at Centre, Alabama.
Mr. Manuel. What is the membership of the Klavern over at
Centre, Alabama?
Mr. Venable. That I don't know, I haven't had a report. I think
$22 from over there.
Mr. Manuel. Could you tell the committee how many members
the National Knights have ?
Mr. Venable. I couldn't tell you. That is what I would like to
find out myself. If there are any Ohio ones I would like to find out,
and how many is in Alabama and Georgia.
Mr. Manuel. How do you detennine whether a person is a member
of the National Knights or not ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3613
Mr. Venable. The only way I can do is talk to them in person or if
he sends me his application and I see him initiated, I know he is a
member.
Mr. Pool. You are the Imperial Wizard, but you don't know what
your Imperial Kingdom is.
Mr. Venable. That is right. That is what I am trying to find out.
You know organizing a Klan, the competition is just like a filling sta-
tion, you know, it is strong. There is so many of them that try to
spring up and die down overnight, and membership shifts from one
Klan to another.
Mr. Manuel. You say you are trying to fuid out what the situation
is within your own Klan group. To whom would you go to find out?
Mr. Venable. To some of the people in Ohio.
Mr. Manuel. Wlio are those people ?
Mr. Venable. Mr. Scott and his wife.
Mr. Manuel. Who else ?
Mr. Venable. Mr. Morris, if he has anything to do with it, and I
have been trying to find out, and Mrs. Witte — she claims that she
hasn't got any membership list.
Mr. Manuel. "Wlio would you go to in the State of Alabama to find
out what the situation is as far as the National Knights are concerned?
Mr. Venable. I would go to a Klavern.
Mr. Manuel. What individual would you talk to ?
Mr. Venable. I don't know. I would have to go there and see who
the officers are.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have any organizers in the State of Alabama ?
Mr. Venable. To my loiowledge, I don't know of any personally
unless Mr. Holcombe went over there and tried to organize. I know
he went over there. I attended one Klavern there one time.
Mr. IVIanuel. Does that Klavern have a charter ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you sign the charter ?
Mr. Venable. I signed the charter.
Mr. Manuel. In whose name did you sign the charter?
Mr. Venable. I signed my name to it. I think it is called the Cen-
tre Klavern.
Mr. Manuel. Does this Klavern have officers ?
Mr. Venable. It had home officers over there the night I was over
there, but I met all of them but I couldn't tell you their names.
Mr. Manuel. And you have never had a written record as to who
they are ?
Mr. Venable. Never have had the written record. I have been
trying to find out the membership in every Klavern, who is a member
and who is not a member.
Mr. Manuel. "When there was a Klavern in Barnesville, did that
Klavern have a charter ?
Mr. Venable. I never did have knowledge there was a Klavern in
Barnesville. That is what I have been trying to check on. I was told,
I believe by you, that they had a charter. Maybe that was one of the
cliarters organized by Mr. Holcombe, but who the members are I don't
know.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever give Mr. Holcombe any blank charters ?
3614 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S.
Mr. Venable. I gave him two or three charters.
Mr. Manuel. Signed in blank ?
Mr. Venable. I think so ; yes.
Mr. Manuel. What was his responsibility with regard to those
charters?
Mr. Venable. Try to get Klaverns set up.
Mr. Manuel. Did he ever report to you
Mr. Venable. Never had any report from him whether he had one
or two or how many is in the Klavem.
Mr. Pool. Do you ever get mixed up and get in the wrong Klan
when you are going around trying to find these Klaverns ?
Mr. Venable. No ; I never have got mixed up that way.
Mr. Pool. You know where to find the Klaverns ?
Mr. Venable. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. Pool. How do you know they are not United Klans when you
go in them ?
Mr. Venable. As I attend — I never have attended any except this
one and over at Tucker, I mean, whether it was actually operating.
Mr. Clawson. How would you know the difference?
Mr. Venable. We have a National password, a password, you know.
Mr. Clawson. And they don't have the same one you have ?
Mr. Venable. No ; I don't know whether they have or not.
Mr. Clawson. They could?
Mr, Venable. They could have.
Mr. Clawson. So they could give you the same password ?
Mr. Venable. They may have the same. The different Klan groups
have a password. Whether they are similar or the same as ours, I
couldn't state. We try to change them every year.
Mr. Clawson. How do you get to your people if you don't know
any of them ? How would your people know ?
Mr, Venable. It is up to the officers of that Klavern. It is up to
the Imperial Wizard to give the passwords to the EC's. He is the
president of the Klaverns or chapter. It is up to him to pass it on
to each individual member.
Mr. Clawson. Do you know all of these various people through
your various Klaverns?
Mr, Venable. As I said, I haven't had the opportunity to visit but
two.
Mr. Clawson. I didn't ask yiou if you visited with them; I asked
you if you knew them.
Mr. Venable. No.
Mr. Pool. When is the last time you changed the password ?
Mr. Venable. We changed the password last year.
Mr. Pool. How did you get it out to the members ?
Mr. Venable. I gave it to some of the people that meet out at
Tucker. Sometimes they come from various — like Ohio. They come
out there,
Mr, Pool, And they pass it on to other exalted cyclops ?
Mr. Venable. When they are initiated, it is up to them to com-
municate that password.
Mr. Clawson. Do you devise the password and the changes your-
self?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3615
Mr. Venable. Sometimes it is suggested, you know, by some of the
members or the leaders.
Mr. Clawson. Who makes the final determination ?
Mr. Venable. It is up to me to make the final determination.
Mr. Clawson. You are the final deteraiination?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. "^^Hiat are some of the passwords you used in the past ?
Mr. Venable. Well, "Caucasian race."
Mr. Pool. What are some more ?
Mr. Venable. "Wliite man,'' things like that.
Mr. Claw^son. You indicated certain handclasps. Have they been
taken from any other fraternal organizations or secret organizations?
Mr. Venable. Well, the handshake, and so forth, is the ones the
Klans always use, the old Klans.
Mr. Clawson. They never changed that ?
Mr. Venable. No; not to my knowledge. Some groups may have
changed it, but as far as I am concerned
Mr. Pool. If a man comes to a Klavern and gives the wrong pass-
word, does he get in ?
Mr. Venable. He is challenged at the door if the Klaveni is in
session. If he happens to be in there before it opens and you go
around and take up the password from all of them and he hasn't got
the password, he may be a visitor from some other Klavern or some
other Klan group. Then somebody in there has to vouch for him or
her, you know, as being a Klansman from so and so.
Mr. Pool. They don't have any kinds of a card or identification?
Mr. Venable. Do you mean w^hat Klan has it ?
Mr. Pool. Does the Klansman have a card or any kind of identifica-
tion?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir ; he would have if he has been initiated and a
member of a Klavern, he would have a card.
Mr. Pool. Would you accept that ?
Mr. Venable. They would accept that if it was issued by that
Klan organization, you know, if he had it, just like any other member-
ship card.
Mr. Clawson. Do you carry a membership card yourself ?
Mr. Venable. Well, no; I don't carry one myself because I would
usually know somebody if it is a Klan group that I am friendly with.
They would know me, and I would know some of the leaders and I
wouldn't have any trouble.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, with the knowledge that you have testi-
fied to this afternoon with regard to your National Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan, I would like to ask you how it is possible for you, as
Imperial Wizard of the organization, to control your membership ?
Mr. Venable. We are trying to process them where we can use
numbers, you know.
Mr. Manuel. I am not talking about controlling in that sense.
Mr. Venable. I am telling about the membership.
Mr. Manuel. I am talking about controlling the activities of your
members. In other words, your testimony as I understand it
Mr. Venable. It is up to the EC's. It is up to the leadership to tell
them the do's and the don'ts.
3616 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Mantjel. You, as Imperial Wizard, have testified that you don't
even know who the EC's are in some cases.
Mr. Venable. That is right, because we are not active. We have
been trying to build the Klan, National. We have been, I would say,
inactive to a certain extent.
Mr. Manuel. You have members today and you have had members
in the past. How do you control the activities of those members as the
Imperial Wizard ?
Mr. Venable. Say Mr. Flynn Harvey is a Dragon. We would talk
with him and meet with him, and it is up to him to tell the members
of those Klaverns the do's and don'ts. If you have a rally w^here Klan
members attended, it was up to some speaker, if he is a member of the
organization, to tell the people what to do and what not to do and try
to keep out of trouble, keep them out of trouble.
Mr. Clawson. Do you have a list of those do's and don'ts anywhere ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir. We don't have a list of them, but I know
what they are.
Mr. Clawson. Could you make those available to this committee?
Mr. Venable. I can't. I don't have it printed.
Mr. Clawson. Do you have them in your mind ?
Mr. Venable. Yes ; I can do that.
Mr. Clawson. Could you make that available to us ?
Would you want to say what some of the do's and don'ts are?
Mr. Venable. I am speaking of the National now. Our policy is
not to interfere in any race, color, or creed and to use no violence, law
violators.
Mr. Pool. You say your policy is to use no violence.
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Pool. How do you control your individual exalted cyclops
throughout the country on that point right there ?
Mr. Venable. There is no way ; if he wants to violate the law and
if he violates it, he would be banished or tried, you know.
Mr. Pool. How many have you banished ?
Mr. Venable. How^ many have we banished ? The only one that I
know we have banished — I mean we didn't — I mean Mr. Flynn Harvey
and them that was up there they banished this man w^ho testified, Mr.
Bob Stephens.
Mr. Pool. You now tell this committee that all of your Klaverns are
practicing no violence ?
Mr. Venable. We try to tell all Klansman whether they belong to
ours or not.
Mr. Pool. But you have no way to check on whether they are follow-
ing this philosophy ?
Mr. Venable. Other than from word to word or some of the leaders
or some of the Klansmen there, you know. If we have know of it,
if we get knowledge of it through the law enforcement agency there,
we try to stop those members. We tell them not to do these things.
Mr. Pool. How do you get the knowledge from the law enforce-
ment agencies?
Mr. Venable. Sometimes you read it in the papers.
Mr. Pool. Do you have any members who belong to law^ enforce-
ment agencies?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3617
Mr. Venable. None that I know of, none to my knowledge. But
I know a lot of local law enforcement officers personally if tliey is
anything wrong down there around Stone Mountain or Tucker,
Georgia
Mr. Pool. Does that include burning crosses ?
Mr. Venable, "V^Hiat do you mean by burning crosses?
Mr. Pool. Do they come and tell you what information they have
about a cross being burned ?
Mr. Venable. Some time you hear about a cross being burned, but
my policy is, and I tell all, never to burn a cross unless it is a public
rally, you have permission from the owner that owns that property.
That is the only time.
Mr. Pool. Do all of your exalted cyclops follow that policy ?
Mr. Venable. I don't know. I hope they do.
Mr. Pool. You have no way of controlling that ?
Mr. Venable. No; you can't keep people from violating the law.
Mr. Pool. You can remove them from office.
Mr. Venable. That is right, and if anybody violates the law we
remove him from office.
Mr. Pool. If you knew that was his philosophy, wouldn't it be a
good idea to remove him before any violence ?
Mr. Venable. Yes; and it is the duty of any Klan leader if any-
body -sdolates the law to remove him or try him for doing something.
Mr. Pool. Isn't it your duty as Imperial Wizard to see to it that
your organization has that philosophy, and you say that is your
philosophy ?
Mr. Venable. That is right.
Mr. Pool. What are you doing about that ?
Mr. Venable. I have written letters around and talked to people
not to violate any of these civil rights laws; that it is a crime to ^et
out here. And I try to make myself plain when I speak at these rallies
not to do these things. You can't do it and get by with it. Whether
you like it or not, civil rights or any other law, we have to recognize
it is the law of this country.
Mr. Clawson. You indicated that you had this policy of nonvio-
lence. I asked you about the do's and dont's. I believe you said you
had been a member of the Klan from 1924, in one capacity or another.
What have these Klans done, to your knowledge, that has been con-
structive, that has actually helped the community during all of this
time, that you would like to point to, some constructive project or
program you feel they have completed ?
Mr. Venable. I have documents to show that the old Klan in 1923
built hospitals and built buildings and done charity things.
Mr, Clawson. That was before you were a member?
Mr. Venable. Since 1924 I know the Klan has helped in many ways,
in Christmas gifts, unfortunate people. I understand up in Ohio,
I don't know if it is our group or some group there, carried around
Christmas baskets to needy people and I understand that they carried
it to an old colored woman's home there with some children and pre-
sented it. That is what I w^as told.
Mr. Clawson. Is this the reason the Klan was organized ?
Mr. Venable. No, sir; this Klan here, the day Klan, it was organ-
ized first — our oath and our duty is we owe allegiance to God first.
3618 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Second, we owe allegiance to our country and, third, to our family
and, fourth, to the Klan organization. That is our allegiance.
Mr. Clawson. I owe allegiance to several of these, but I don't need
the Klan for that.
Mr. Venable. There have been secret, fraternal organizations in
this country for many years.
Mr. Clawson. I understand this, but I was trying to see the pur-
pose of it.
Mr. Venable. The purpose of it is to advocate the separation of
the races, to keep the nigger race black and the white race white, but
give them equal protection of rights and laws.
Mr. Clawson. I have no other questions.
Mr. Manuel. You stated, to your knowledge, you had never re-
ceived a report from Ohio stating in any way what the activities of
your klavems were in the State of Ohio, yet we have a letter from
Mr. Flynn Harvey addressed to yourself, an undated letter, but it
reads as follows :
Dear Mr. Venable :
I cut this clipping out of this mornings newspaper, and thought you would
be interested in it, hope this meets with your approval. I have proved that this
State Sen. Anthony O. Calabrese is another lying Democrate [sic].
I would like to ask your advice on a matter we have here, concerning this
Columbus Klavern. A couple of fellows here in the Klavern. keep after me to
select State Officers to work with me, they are Mr. W. K. Smith and Chuck
Gilliam who keep after this subject all the time, in my oppinion [sic] I don't
as yet have the fellows I want in mind for this job, and they certainly are not
these two fellows. These are good people but the kind that like to stir up
descention [sic] in the group, if you know what I mean.
Have you had the chance to write or call Mr. Martin in Cleveland, Ohio as of
yet? I'm very ancious [sic] to know what is going on. Drop me a line when you
liave the time.
Also have you heard anything from Mrs. Whitie [sic] Or Mr. Head from the
Cinni. Area? I haven't heard a thing, we well [sic] have to get the applications
straighted [sic] out. I well [sic] go to Cinni. before long if I don't here [sic]
anything from them.
We have had a lot of mail from the Cleveland area, which has all been very
favorable, I'm going to set up some meeting with them people up there befor [sic]
very long, they sound like what we have been looking for.
I well [sic] try to keep you informed of what is going on up here. Thanks a
lot for everything.
Yours Truly
/s/ Flynn R. Harvey.
Flynn R. HARVEry.
Mr. Pool. Who signed the letter ?
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Flynn Harvey.
Mr. Venable. I received this letter from Mr. Harvey, but I have
not yet had any report on this man Martin — I don't know who he is
talking about, or Head. I may have met him, but I have not had any
financial report from Mr. Harvey.
(Document marked "James Venable Exhibit No. 9" and retained in
committee files.)
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever asked him for one ?
Mr. Venable. I have asked him for one, and he said he is getting it
up, but I never got a report. I tried to get a report from Mrs. Witte
and Mr. Harvey to determine who are and who are not members there,
Mr. Manuel. I go back to my original question, Mr. Venable; you
as Imperial Wizard under this system, I don't see how you could
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3619
possibly control members of the National Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan.
Mr. Venable. I am trying to do my best to control them to see what
we got np there and who we got up there in Ohio and other places.
It is pretty hard.
Mr. Manuel. How long have you been trying to find out?
Mr. Venable. For the past year, I have been trying to find out.
Mr. Clawson. Mr. Venable, I am going to go back to your letter,
and it is your letter and not Mr. Butterworth's, and I want to call
attention to two or three things in this letter and actually quote from
it (James Venable Exhibit No. 4.) :
You are being forced to support a religion, which is unconstitutional, and which
is made up of anti-Christian rabbis and synagogues. This you do with every
purchase of Kosher-Jewish food, in both Christian and Jewish stores.
This tithe, or tribute, is filched from your pocket without your knowledge or
consent, for hardly one person in ten thousand is aware of the secret coded mark-
ings. The Jewish racket of continuous inspection and super\'ision is only a
scheme to force Jewish employees on a manufacturer, and throw our own Chris-
tians out of a job. Christian plants have been forced to pass the costs of this
blackmail along to you, the ultimate consumer, and bar their own race.
After study of these lists, you will realize that it is the most diabolical plot
ever conceived by these leeches of mankind. Nothing in the most barbaric days
of history approaches it, in the exaction of cruel tribute. We say to every
Christian American, without rudeness. — Smash the slave tribute, or forever be
silent about Jew Communism and Jew Bankers ruling the world.
Resolve to fight with every penny you spend. Buy and distribute these lists
to every Christian home. Get off your lazy seat and send a big fat check to the
ONE outfit that is going to KILL this blackmail. * * *
This is your letter. Among all these firms — and I know some of
them personally and I have some personal contact with the people
involved — the Wong's ChinesQ Foods — these are areas close to me and
in my district, Wliite Star Tuna Company. With a name Wong, I find
a little difficulty. You also list Sunkist, Superior Honey, Sanna Dair-
ies, Hunt Foods, Snowdrift Products, Star-Kist Tuna, Milani Foods,
Arizona Can Foods, Smart & Final Iris, Breast O' Chicken, and then
you list all the Kraft and General Foods and Post and Kellogg's and
all these others in this group.
Frankly, I am offended by a letter of this kind. I just don't believe
it is proper and within the province of an organization to write a let-
ter like the one written here, and I hope that you would want to retract
a letter like that if it has been sent out.
Mr. Venable. I left that up to Mr. Butterworth to check these items
and these companies, and he got a book and made the check.
Mr. Clawson. Even the wording of the letter seems to me rather
harsh.
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir ; it probably is pretty harsh.
Mr. Clawson. It is pretty harsh ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. You don't wish to retract the language used ?
Mr. Venable. I said I w^oulcl like to retract it.
Mr. Pool. At this time do you do so ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir ; I retract it and I apologize, you know.
Mr. Clawson. I don't believe letters like this should be given wide
distribution.
Mr. Pool. Did you write this letter, or did someone else ?
3620 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Venable. Mr. Biitterworth did.
Mr. Clawson. But it is your signature ?
Mr. Venable. That is one of the reasons we were at odds. He was
too bitter-tongued, and that is the reason we parted the ways because
it was a losing proposition of me financing the thing.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Venable, your subpena will be continued until March
1. We will not take the time to examine the documents today which
you presented, but we will inform you of a further appearance.
I remarked yesterday that perjury had been committed before this
committee. My comment was based on what appeared to me to be
direct conflict in testimony received then and on previous occasions.
I have requested the stafl' to make an analysis of the testimony in
question. If analysis confirms what I believe to be true, and I think
it will, it is my intention to recommend to the committee that this
testimony be referred to the Department of Justice for the purpose
of initiating legal action against the offenders.
The committee will stand in recess until next Monday morning at
10 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 5 p.m., Tuesday, February 15, 1966, the subcom-
mittee recessed, to reconvene at 10 a.m., Monday, February 21, 1966.)
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN ORGANIZATIONS IN
THE UNITED STATES
Part 5
MONDAY, FEBRUARY 21, 1966
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D.C.
PUBLIC HEARINGS
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities,
as reconstituted for the February 21 hearings, met, pursuant to recess,
at 10:45 a.m., in the Caucus Room, Cannon House Office Building,
Washington, D.C, Hon. Joe R. Pool (chairman of the subcommittee)
presiding.
(Subcommittee members: Representatives Joe R. Pool, of Texas,
chairman ; Charles L. Weltner, of Georgia ; and John H. Buchanan,
Jr., of Alabama.)
Subcommittee members present: Representatives Pool and Bu-
chanan.
Staff members present: Francis J. McNamara, director; William
Hitz, general counsel; Alfred M, Nittle, counsel; Donald T. Appell,
chief investigator; and Philip R. Manuel, investigator.
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
The Chair wishes to read a letter from the chairman appointing
the subcommittee :
To : Mr. Francis J. McNamaba
Director, Committee on Un-American Activities
February 17, 1966.
Pursuant to the provisions of the law and the Rules of this Committee, I hereby
appoint a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities consisting
of Honorable Joe R. Pool as Chairman, and Honorable Charles L. Weltner and
Honorable John Buchanan as associate members, to conduct hearings in Wash-
ington, D.C. on Monday, February 21, 1966, as contemplated by the resolution
adopted by the Committee on the 30tli day of March. 196-5, authorizing hearings
concerning the activities of the various Ku Klux Klan organizations in the
United States.
Please make this action a matter of Committee record.
If any member indicates his inability to sen-e, please notify me.
Given under my hand this 17th day of February, 1966.
/s/ Edwin E. Willis
Edwin E. Willis
Chairman, Committee on Un-American Activities
Mr. Manuel, call your next witness.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, the staff would like to call at this time
Mr. Richard Hanna.
3621
59-222 O— 67— pt. 5 10
3622 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Hanna. I do, sir.
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD JOSEPH HANNA
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Hanna, would you please state your full name for
the record ?
Mr. Hanna. My name is Kichard Joseph Hanna.
Mr. Manuel. And Mr. Hanna, are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; I am not.
Mr. Manuel. At this time, I would like to ask you, Mr. Hanna,
whether you desire counsel ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir ; I do not.
Mr. Manuel. Do you understand, Mr. Hanna, that at any time dur-
ing your testimony, if you should desire counsel, you have the right
to communicate that desire to the chairman of the committee, and ar-
rangements will be made for you to obtain counsel ?
Do you understand that ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. Manuel. Do you also understand, Mr. Hanna, that under the
Constitution of the United States, and under the fifth amendment of
that Constitution, you have the right, if you so desire, to refuse to
answer any question which you honestly feel might tend to incriminate
you?
Do you understand that, sir ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. Manuel. Now, have you been provided, have you been furnished
a copy of the chairman's opening statement, which Mr. Willis made
in October of 1965, prior to the start of the hearings into the KKK?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. And have you become generally familiar with the con-
tents of that document?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir ; I have.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Hanna, are you appearing before the committee
this morning in response to a subpena served upon you at 216 East 6th
Street, Newport, Kentucky, at 8 :30 p.m. on the 16th day of Februar}'
1966, by committee investigator Neil Wetterman?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Hanna, when and where were you born, sir?
Mr. Hanna. I was borned in Dayton, Kentucky, April 19, 1943.
Mr. Manuel. And where do you currently reside?
Mr. Hanna. I live the 216 East 6th Street, Newport, Kentucky.
Mr. Manuel. And how long have you lived at the residence, sir?
Mr. Hanna. Twenty-three years, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you give the committee a brief resume of your
educational background?
Mr. Hanna. I have an eighth-graded ; went to Ohio Military [Acad-
emy], Cincinnati, North College Hill, Cincinnati, Ohio.
Mr. Manuel. And since the year 1960, would you give tlie commit-
tee a brief resume of your employment background?
Mr. Hanna. I am employed as maintenance man, busboy, waiter,
regular restaurant work.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S. 3623
Mr. Manuel. Are you currently employed ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir ; I am not.
Mr. Manuel. And how long have you been out of work, Mr. Hanna ?
Mr. Hanna. Three months.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Hanna, have you ever been arrested ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee when and where the
first arrest occurred ?
Mr. Hanna. The first arrest occurred in Arlington Heights, Ohio,
in August of 1964. The circumstances was a neo-Nazi Ku Klux Klan
demonstration in front of Clarence Brandenburg's radio-TV repair
shop. Mr. Brandenburg was arrested for alleged Ku Klux Klan ac-
tivities, and I was there to protect him and his rights.
Mr. Manuel. And how many persons took part in this demonstra-
tion, Mr. Hanna ?
Mr. Hanna. Mr. Brandenburg and myself .
Mr. Manuel. And you said it was a neo-Nazi Ku Klux Klan
demonstration ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please explain that statement a little bit
better for the committee ?
Mr. Hanna. Well, I was a member of the American Nazi Party,
U.S. Stormtrooper Division, Cincinnati. Mr. Brandenburg was iden-
tified as an imperial officer in the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan. The man was arrested, and due to a demonstration that some-
one held in Cincinnati, they seized different articles belonging to
the Klan in his shop, and rightwing extreme literature.
The man — I, at that time, still to a certain extent, think the man
was in his rights in having this stuff, and I was there to protest this
and to protect Mr. Brandenburg, because his life has been threatened
by enemies of our cause.
Mr. Manuel. Now under what charge were you arrested ?
Mr. Hanna. The charge was disorderly conduct.
Mr. Manuel. And what was the disposition of that case?
Mr. Hanna. Well, I went to trial, after the first continuance, I was
convicted by this Mr. Englander and Mr. Cook, Mr. Cook being the
judge and Mr. Englander being the prosecutor. These two men found
me guilty. I was fined $75 and court costs for disorderly conduct.
Mr. Manuel. Did you spend any time in jail on that charge?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Manuel. Was that the first time you were ever arrested?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Since that time, were you arrested again ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir ; I was.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please describe for the committee the cir-
cumstances under which you were arrested for a second time ?
Mr. Hanna. This was at a Ku Klux Klan rally in Sanford Town,
which is a part of Kenton County, Kentucky. This is a National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan rally, held on private property, right off
the road. A reporter from WCPO, which is a news station, TV sta-
tion in Cincinnati, came on the property, which he was not invited. A
security guard — I was acting as a security guard for the Klan — asked
3624 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
him to leave. The man shoved the security guard, and a fight oc-
curred. This man was beaten to a certain extent.
The man next day came to the rally grounds, arrested myself and
another man for the assault. We were tooken to the Kenton County
jail and booked on assault and battery.
(At this point Representative Weltner entered the hearing room.)
Mr. JVIanuel. And what was the disposition of that case, Mr. Hanna ?
Mr. Hanna. This former FBI man who is the judge, Mr. Nelson,
found me guilty — or rather, dropped the charges from assault and
battery to disorderly conduct and found me guilty. I was fined $112.00
and court costs and spent 1 day in the Kenton County jail.
Mr. Manuel. Wlien did their rally take place, Mr. Hanna?
Mr. Hanna. It took place somewhere in September, I believe, of
'65. I can't think of the exact date. It was somewhere in September.
Mr. Manuel. All right.
Now who were the other individuals who were with you when this
arrest took place ?
Mr. Hanna. People that was involved, you mean the people that
was involved in the beating?
Mr. Manuel. All right, we will take it from there. Who was in-
volved in the beating ?
Mr. Hanna. The people that was accused of the beating with Mr.
William Green, Mr. Barney Ross, and myself.
Mr. Manuel. Did you know at that time that Mr. Green and Mr.
Ross were members of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Manuel. Were you, yourself, a member at that time ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you Imow that at that time that Mr. Green and
Mr. Ross were members of an organization known within Klan groups
as the Black Shirts ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Manuel. Did you have any knowledge whatsoever at that time
of the Black Shirts?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Manuel. All right.
Now, Mr. Hanna, have you ever been under the care of a psychia-
trist?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever been in a mental institution or a mental
hospital ?
Mr. Hanna. Unfortunately not.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Hanna, are you acquainted with a person named
EloiseWitte?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please tell the committee when and where
you first met Mrs. Witte ?
Mr. Hanna. I met Mrs. Eloise Witte in January of 1965.
Mr. Manuel. And how did you meet Mrs. Witte ?
Mr. Hanna. At that time, I was no longer with the American
Nazi Party and I was seeking an organization to join, so I heard of
the National States Rights Party. I called its office in Cincinnati
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3625
and I spoke to Mrs. Witte, and she invited me to her house for a dis-
cussion about the organization, about joining.
Mr. Manuel. Now, before we proceed with that, would you please
tell the committee when you first joined the American Nazi Party?
Mr. Hanna. I joined the American Nazi Party in the year 1959.
Mr. Manuel. And did you hold any office in the American Nazi
Party?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir ; I did.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please tell the committee the office or of-
fices which you have held within that organization ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; I was a Storm Leader of Ohio and deputy
commander of the American Nazi Party, Cincinnati Division, U.S.
Stormtroopers.
Mr. Manuel, What was that last office ?
Mr. Hanna. U.S. deputy commander, U.S. Stormtrooper Division,
Cincinnati.
Mr. Manuel. You were deputy commander of the U.S. Storm-
trooper Division for Cincinnati, Ohio. Is that correct ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. And how long did you hold that office, Mr. Hanna ?
Mr. Hanna. Approximately a year.
Mr. Manuel. One year ?
Mr. Hj^lNNa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. And did you have that office when you terminated
your membership in the American Nazi Party ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please tell the committee when you termi-
nated that membership in the American Nazi Party ?
Mr. Hanna. Let's see. ShortlybeforeDecember, sir, of '65.
Mr. Manuel. Shortly before December of '65 ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Now how did you first contact Mrs. Witte?
Mr. Hanna. At the States Eights Party, by phone.
Mr. Manuel. And what were the main points of that conversation,
your first conversation with Mrs. Witte, at that time ?
Mr. Hanna. I told her on the phone that I was interested in joining
a sincere, white Christian American organization. I stood against
communism, race-mixing, and Jewism and I wanted to join an orga-
nization worthwhile, doing something against this.
Mr. Manuel. And what was Mrs. Witte's response to you at that
time ?
Mr. Hanna. Mrs. Witte commended me for this and said I came
to the right organization and that she would like to talk to me.
Mr. Manuel. And did you subsequently talk to Mrs. Witte?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. Manuel. And when was that, Mr. Hanna?
Mr. Hanna. It was shortly thereafter, 2 weeks after I went out to
Mrs. Witte's house, made an appointment, spoke to Mrs. Witte in
private. I asked her the different platform of the organization, the
different functions of the States Rights Party, and she told me about
the organization in general.
Mr. Manuel. Now, was your first contact with Mrs. Witte with
3626 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
regard to the National States Rights Party rather than the Kii Khix
Klan?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mantjel. And you said you spoke to Mrs. Witte in private at
her home, approximately 2 weeks after you first telephoned her.
Wliat was the gist of that particular conversation with Mrs. Witte,
at that time?
Mr. Hanna. You mean when I talked to her over the telephone?
Mr. Manuel. No, when you went to her house, about 2 weeks after
you talked to her over the phone.
Mr. Hanna. Well, at that time, I went to her house, talked to her,
she gave me, as a matter of fact, some literature on the States Rights
Party, some of their publications from Atlanta, Georgia. I gave her
a donation towards the cause. I left, went home, and read the
literature.
Mr. Manuel. Did you have any other conversation with Mrs. Witte
with regard to any possible action on your part in this organization ?
Mr. Hanna. I explained to her — she explained a certain functioning
of the organization itself, and I said, well, I thought all organizations
should have more of a uniform. We talked, discussed that, and Mrs.
Witte asked me exactly what was I looking for in the organization
itself, and I — we discussed that. She asked me was it — I explained
I wanted to form a different task force, specific task force for younger
people, and I said she had too much older people in the organization
itself. I said I wanted a regular young men force, like stormtroopers.
And she wasn't so enthused about that.
Mr. Manuel. Did she use any words similar to these? Did she
ask you how far you would go for the white race at that time?
Mr. Hanna. Yes ; she did.
Mr. Manuel. And what did that mean to you, Mr. Hanna ?
Mr. Hanna. Well, it meant to me, would I give my life, would I take
a life, would I die for the cause. And I explained to lier that the only
time that I would have to take a life is in self-defense, defending my
race or my country, and also, as far as giving my life, I would give
my life for my race or my country.
Mr. Manuel. At any time during this conversation, did she ask
you whether you would be willing to kill for the white race?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. At that time, at that first conversation, did she men-
tion any one individual against whom she would send you, possibly?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. She did not. Now, also with regard to that first con-
versation, did Mrs. Witte discuss in any way activities of the Ku
KluxKlan?
Mr. Hanna. Very little, sir. She told me that she was Imperial
Empress, or Grand Empress, in the National Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan ; that she was connected with the couple of affiliate Klan
organizations ; and that if I ever wanted a membership, I could seek
this membership through her.
Mr. Manuel. Did she tell you that she was actively recruiting for
the Ku Klux Klan at that time ?
Mr. Hanna. She planted the seed of thought that she did not state
she was recruiting officer. But, actually, anyone who had the appli-
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3627
cation, she said she would sign anyone up that was qualified, so this
automatically, in my own mind, I took it that she was a recruiting
officer.
Mr. Manuel. I see. And at that time, at the time of this meeting,
did you join the NSRP?
Mr. Hanna. Not the first meeting ; no, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you submit an application to Mrs. Witte ?
Mr. Hanna. Not at the first meeting; no, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Okay. Did you subsequently submit an application
to Mrs. Witte either for the National States Rights Party or the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Hanna. I did so.
Mr. IVIanuel. Did you do so for both organizations?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you subsequently become a member of the Na-
tional States Rights Party?
Mr. Hanna. I did.
Mr. Manuel. Are you currently a member of the National States
Rights Party ?
Mr. Hanna. I am a member of the organization.
Mr. Manuel. Now, you stated that you submitted an application
for the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. Is that correct?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. To whom did you submit that application ?
Mr. Hanna. I submitted the application to Mrs. P^loise Witte.
Mr. Manuel. And at that time, did you pay the required initiation
fee or klectokon to Mrs. Witte?
Mr. Hanna. I paid the application fee.
Mr. Manuel. How much was that, Mr. Hanna?
Mr. Hanna. Fifteen dollars.
Mr. Manuel. Now, subsequent to your giving Mrs. Witte an appli-
cation and initiation fee, were you at any time after that initiated into
membership of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have^ — do you possess any knowledge as to
what happened to your application and to the $15 which you gave
Mrs. Witte? ' '
Mr. Hanna. I have heard from different people, and this is only
hearsay, that tlie money went in Mrs. Witte's pocket.
Mr. 'Manuel. Now, what was the date, approximately, that you
gave this application for the National Knights to Mrs. Witte?
Mr. Hanna. This was about, oh, let me think liere. Somewhere in
March, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Sometime in March?
Mr. Hanna. March, middle of March.
Mr. Manuel. Middle of March. Had you had any contact with
Mrs. Witte from the time of your first meeting witli her and the time
tliat you submitted an application to the National Knights?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; I had several meetings.
Mr. Manuel. Would you briefly tell the committee wliat went on
in those meetings with Mrs. Witte?
Mr. Hanna. Well, we discussed the health, Russian health exhibit,
which was this Communist health exhibit, wliicli I was bitterly op-
3628 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
posed to. We discussed that and discussed picketing or ripping up
the hammer and sickle flag, which was very proper to do, and we dis-
cussed different tactics in picketing, and so forth, putting out publica-
tions, recruiting for the States Eights Part-y and the Klan.
(At this point Mr. Weltner left the hearing room.)
Mr. Manuel. Now, did Mrs. Witte ever talk to you concerning
getting you into a certain elite type of squad that she was fonning?
Mr. Hanna. Yes; I understand that she, without different leader-
ship, was forming her own elite guard and killer squad.
Mr. Manuel. Did she use the word to you "killer squad" in refer-
ring to this?
Mr. Ha.nna. Yes, she did.
Mr. Manuel. Did she want you to become a member of this ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes; she said that she wanted me to become a mem-
ber, but to keep it very quiet from James R. Venables.
Mr. Manuel. And was this killer squad, to your knowledge, con-
nected with the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, or any other
Klan group ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir ; I can't say this. This was Mrs. Witte's private
project, for the local area.
Mr. Manuel. Can you identify any other member, or possible mem-
ber, of such a group ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; because she said you would have to be initiated
first, before you find this out.
Mr. Manuel. And what, to your knowledge, was supposed to be the
purpose of this squad ?
Mr. Hanna. The opposition to the Black Muslim.
Mr. Manuel. And how was it supopsed to be opposed to the Black
Muslim?
Mr. Hanna. Well, as you know, sir, the Black Muslim have an elite
guard and guerrilla force, and this was to opposition in race war or
race riots. And, actually, there is discussed to eliminate different
Muslim leaders, even before the war itself.
Mr. Manuel. And these so-called assassination plans, were they
supposed to be directed to anyone other than Black Muslims, to your
knowledge?
Mr. Hanna. This was discussed, but there was never no names
mentioned. The Muslim Mosque, the Muslim itself, was directed.
Later in the testimony, it will be brought up again, but right now, at
this point, we were discussing the Muslim in itsef .
Mr. Manuel. And you had these conversations with Mrs. Witte, as
I understand it, around the middle of March of 1965. Is that correct?
Mr. Hanna. At this time ; yes, sir, all through the period of March,
from the middle to the end of March.
Mr. MvNUEL. And at that time, you had also applied for member-
ship in the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan through Mrs.
Witte. Is that correct ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Now Mr. Hanna, have you ever met a man by the
name of Daniel Wagner ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir ; I have.
Mr. Manuel. When did you meet Mr. Wagner?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3629
Mr. Hanna. It was Easter Sunday, 1965, at Mrs. Witte's living
room. I am pretty sure of this, the date. Because I remember bring-
ing Mrs. Witte and her daughter a, present, and he was sitting there
in the front room, and the situation was, he had a — and I walked in
and seen he was sitting there, he had a rifle in his hand, he had his
sport coat off, he had a shoulder holster on, with a pistol in his shoulder
holster.
Mr. Manuel. What type of pistol was that ?
Mr. Hanna. It was a German Mauser .32 automatic pistol, Second
World War model.
Mr. Manuel. Did you inquire as to where Mr. Wagner obtained
this weapon, or these two weapons ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. M^VNUEL. And what did you find out in that regard?
Mr. Hanna. Well, the first time I asked him, he said he bought it
from a Mafia, or some gangster up in Detroit. Then later on that
evening, when he got to know me better, trust me, he took me into his
confidence and told me he got them from a man in Ohio.
Mr. Manuel. Did he identify that man in Ohio from whom he
got the gun ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did he tell you at any time that be got this gun
through the efforts of Mrs. Witte?
Mr. Hanna. He said she was instrumental in directing liim to the
source.
Mr. Pool. Did he ask her whom to see, to get a gun ?
Mr. Hanna. Sir, this was not discussed. I asked the Wagner youth
where he got the gims. He said he got them from some man in Ohio,
and Mrs. Witte was instrumental in getting these, making contacts.
He did not say who the man was, what the man's business was, except
tliat he was in the gun business.
Mr. Pool. Did he relate to you the circumstances of lier recommend-
ing this man?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. Pool. Can you tell us about that?
Mr. Hanna. She said— Mr. Wagner told me, this is— that Mrs.
Witte said this man could be trusted, and he would never divulge the
serial numbers or the purchase to the authorities, if they asked, or to
anyone else.
Mr. Manitel. Did Mrs. Witte at any time suggest that you purchase
a 'weapon?
Mrs. Hanna, Yes, sir; she did.
Mr. Manuel. And would you tell the committee under what cir-
cumstances she made this suggestion to you?
Mr. Hanna. Well, she asked me, she said I was in quite a few street
fights in the American Nazi Party, and so forth, and that I was well
known, since I made the paper, oh, hundreds of times in Cincinnati,
in all kinds of publicity; she said that I should protect myself at
night, walking the. streets, and I should own a pistol. She said, as a
matter of fact, she wanted all of her elite guard carrying pistols.
Mr. Manuel. And did you at this time purchase a weapon subse-
quent to your conversation with Mrs. Witte in this regard ?
3630 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. You did not ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. Did she tell you someone to go see about purchasing a
pistol ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; she did not mention that. She said that they
had sources, service sources where I could get the guns from.
Mr. Pool. But she never did get right down to finding out whom
to see.
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Hanna, you just stated that your first meeting
with Mr. Wagner was at Mrs. Witte's home on approximately Easter
of 1965. Is that correct ?
Mr. Hanna. This was the first time T seen Mr. Wagner: ves. sir.
Mr. Manuel. And you stated that Mr. Wagner had in his posses-
sion openly weapons at this time. Is that correct ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Now. during your first meeting with Mr. Wagner at
Mrs. Witte's home, did you have any conversation regarding any as-
sassination plot or any possible act of violence ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please t^ll the committee the first such
conversation ?
Mr. Hanna. Well, the first conversation, Mr. Wagner was sitting
in her living room, drinking beer, and at that time, I believe the youth
was partially intoxicated. I say "partially." I would say halfway to
the point of drunk.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Wagner was ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir. And I explained to him that he was waving
these guns around somewhat carelessly, and to put them away. This
was a sleeve action rifle. And he explained to me that he was a fire-
arms expert and that he was a sniper, and I explained to him that I
did not care to hear this, I wanted the guns put away, and I went to
Mrs. Witte, and she said, "This is my ace in the hole. This is my boy,"
and she said, "He knows all about firearms."
He said, "That's right. I am going to go to work, and I am going
to take care of L.B.J, and Horatio."
And then he only mentioned Mr. Humphrey once by the name of
"Horatio," I take it, and then he started talking about killing Lyndon
Baines Johnson.
Mr. Manuel. Now what conversation was there, to your knowledge,
between Mrs. Witte and Mr. Wagner at this point when Mr. Lyndon
Baines Johnson was discussed ?
Mr. Hanna. Mrs. Witte was actually nonconcerned about it at first.
I got very upset. I told him, I said, "Well, even saying this could go
back to the Federal authorities," and I said, "You could be arrested."
And he said in his slang, he said, "Man, cool it. That's my business,
not yours." He said, "that's where you separate the men from the
boys."
And I said, "Well, I have been involved in a lot of street fights, and
everything, and it sure takes more to stand up to a crowd against you
than it does to sit in a window and snipe at the President."
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3631
And we almost came to blows. Mrs. Witte separated us. She set us
down. She talked to both of us and said that I shouldn't get upset at
Mr. Wagner, that Mr. Wagner is going to do some work for her, and
she said there, Mr. Johnson, if he needed assassination, Mr. Wagner
could do it. Then she said that "Right now, we are interested in other
people," And she said that "Martin Lucifer Coon" was one. This is
Mrs. Witte's words. She said this and then she said that
Mr. Pool. Speaking of whom?
Mr. Hanna. Mrs. Witte used the expression, instead of Martin
Luther King, "Martin Lucifer Coon," a rightwing expression, and she
also stated there is other people to go, white people, before there was
anyone else. The colored, that is, are open enemies. She said, there
is a lot of people that stood behind these organizations that should go.
And then she got on a discussion of her husband, Mr. Albert Witte,
who is a recently retired fireman in Cincinnati. And she explained
that Mr. Witte has caused her trouble, embarrassment, and disgrace,
amongst the Klan and the States Rights Party. He was a nonbeliever
and nothing less than a Communist without his hammer and sickle.
Now, Mr. Witte and I never did get along, sir, and they discussed
assassinating him. I told them that I did not want nothing to do with
assassination. And up to this point, even I did not consider the Presi-
dent, talking about the President, a plot, because they didn't actually
really plot. But when she started talking, plotting about her hus-
band, I left the room and I went out to the refrigerator and got myself
a Coca-Cola and stood there and poured it in a glass and looked in at
the doorway. And I looked at them and I heard them discuss the
methods they were going to use to eliminate him.
Mr. Pool. Eliminate who?
Mr. Hanna. Mr. Witte. One was to go across the street in the
shrubbery and so snipe him with this rifle, and I explained, well, the
neighbors would see.
Mr. Pool. Whose idea was this, Mrs. Witte's or whose ?
Mr. Hanna. That was Mr. Wagner's.
Mr. Pool. What did Mrs. Witte have to say to that?
Mr. Hanna. Mrs. Witte didn't comment. I commented and quelled
it. I was there to quell all this. I said, "You realize the neighbors
would see you do this." Then tliat killed that, so they thought of a
couple of ways, and I killed that.
So Mr. Wagner was thinking up these ways to kill Mr. Witte, and
they weren't amounting to anything, so Mrs. Witte, with her mind,
evil mind, I would say, she thought up a way of, she put the "final
solution," which is a Nazi phrase, and this was to get a Ku Klux Klan
membership card, identifying him as an imperial officer, getting a
Klansman's robe, and a revolver
Mr. Pool. Identifying Mr. Wagner?
Mr. Hanna. Mr. Witte.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Witte. All right.
Mr. Hanna. Mr. Witte as an i^nperial officer, getting this robe and
a pistol, drugging Mr. Witte
Mr. Pool. What drug were they going to use ?
Mr. Hanna. I believe the drug was called — if they talked about
some kind, Mr. Wagner seemed to know all about narcotics, benzedrine.
3632 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
commonly known as "bennies." He said, a certain amount or quantity
of this would make Mr. AVitte incoherent to everything and nonaware
of what was going on.
Mr. Pool. Did they discuss where they were going to get the drug?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; they did not. Mrs. Witte said, "This is wdiat
we will do." She said, "We will drug him, we will drive him out in
Avondale in front of the Black Muslim Mosque. We will put the card
in his pocket, we will put him in the road.-'
She said, "Danny, you fire four shots out of six at the door, hand
him the pistol.'' She said, "He will be standing out there, not know-
ing what's going on, with a pistol in his hand, and," she said, "the
Muslims will rip him into ground beef."
Mr. Pool. The Muslims will do w^hat ?
Mr. Hanna. Please?
Mr. Pool. What did she say about the Muslims?
Mr. Hanna. She said, when the bullets hit the Muslim door during
the meeting, they would tear out and see him standing there with this
pistol and they would tear him into gromid beef.
And that time, I became — well, very ill. Very scared, so I took Mrs,
Witte, I got into it, then, and I says, "Mr. Stoner is one of your lawyers,
is he not?"
And she said, "Yeah, he is."
And I said, ""WHiy don't you let Mr. Stoner handle this divorce
matter?" I said, "There is legal ways of doing this." I said, "Cer-
tainly you will get caught."
Mr. Manuel. Now, did Mrs. Witte during the course of tliis con-
versation ever explain why she wanted to kill her husband ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; as I explained, she said he was a menace to
her cause, that he was a sellout to her cause, that he embarrassed her in
front of the different dignitaries of the Klans and the States Rights,
and that she could not no longer take this, and she mentioned some-
thing about he was planning to declare her incompetent.
Mr. Manuel. Did she ever tell you that Mr. Witte had threatened
to have her put in a mental institution ?
Mr. Hanna. Sir, she might have. I can't remember, because this
has been a strain on me, but she said at one time that he was going
to declare her incompetent. It is very similar.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Hanna, you are aware that Mr. Daniel Wagner
has testified before the committee, and in the course of his testimony,
he presented to the committee a letter, a 10-])age letter, which he had
written at the request of Mr. William Hugh Morris. And in a certain
portion of that letter, Mr. Wagner set forth certain conversations and,
in this letter lie states that you were a witness to some of these con-
versations, which, of course, you have just testified to here.
I would like to read you those portions of Mr. Wagner's letter
[Bobby Stephens Exhibit No. 5] and his testimony which relate to
instances in which he says you Avere a witness.
On the last paragraph of the tliird page, Mr. Wagner states as
follows :
On the last evening of my stay in Cin., at the liome of Mrs. Witte accompanied
by Richard Hanna whom is a late member of the Nazi Party in Kentucky, Mi*s.
Witte told Richard and myself that her husband had demanded that she drop
all activity with the K.K.K.K.. and N.S.R.P. and be a mother to her children
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3633
and a housewife. When she refused he said he would liave lier committed to a
mental institution since it only took his signature and the signature of a
doctor. She claimed there was nothing but Jew doctors and Judges in Cin.
and she would be committed. She also stated her I.Q. was in the 150's which is
near genius (average 100 — 110) and there was nothing wrong with her, but if he
(her husband) w^ent through with this, it would be a big step for the Communists
in hurting the AVhite race. R. Hanna wasn't for killing her husband but for
beating some sense into his head. Mrs. Witte claimed this was no good and
wanted him either shot as he left the house for work or in the house to make it
look like an intruder did this. I thought — ["I" referring to Mr. Wagner's
thought — ] a good idea was to get him high on narcotics and clothe him in a
Klan robe, then have him drive into the Black Muslims training center in
Cincinnatti [sic]. Mrs. Witte agreed, but Richard Hanna w^as hesitant about
murder so he dropped out of the scene. The next week R. Hanna phoned me in
Columbus and told me it was called off for a w^hile because J. B. Stoner was
straightening her husband out legally and Mr. Morris would be down to help soon.
Now, Mr. Hanna, to your direct knowledge, is that testimony in the
form of Mr. Wagner's letter substantially correct ?
Mr. Hanna. Most of it is, sir. There is a couple of — it wasn't —
first of all, let me explain a few things that is wrong. This was Mrs.
Witte's idea, not Mr, Wagner. Mr. Wagner, as far as criminalwise,
or evilwise, is not that smart, to think this up.
As far as calling Mr. Wagner, I called Mr. Wagner and lied to him
to keep him away, and I said tliat Mr. Stoner, this is a personal friend
of mine, Mr. Stoner, was going to handle this in a legal manner.
Now Mr. Wagner believed me, so he stayed away.
Mr. Manuel. In other words, you made this call to stop any possible
action in that regard. Do I understand you correctly ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes; so then I called Mrs. Witte and I told Mrs. Witte
tliat Mr. Wagner was ill and could not do this, and she said, "you
should have kept out of this anyway, Richard."
I said, "He is very sick." I said, "He is very sick and he is not going
to be able to make it."
So I tried to get in touch with Mr, Stoner in Atlanta at tlie States
Rights Party headquarters. I knew if Mr, Stoner knew this, he could
have stopped it, so I tried to get in touch with Mr, Venables, and Mr.
Venables was nowhere around, so I took Mrs. Witte's daughter in
my confidence and I told Mrs, Witte's daughter what went on, and she
said, well, her mother was sick. She said her mother was making
enemies amongst the Klan and the States Rights, and so forth.
Mr, Manuel, Now, to your direct knowledge, did Mrs. Witte ever
accept an application from Mr. Wagner and a certain initiation fee to
join the National Kniglits of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Do you know that ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir ; I witnessed this.
Mr, Manuel. And was this the same day that you met Mr, Wagner
at Mrs. Witte's home ?
Mr, Hanna, No, sir; 1 believe it was the last time I seen him there.
I only met Mr. Wagner twice, and this was the last time, I believe. It
was the same application which I filled out. Now these were not male
applications. These were female applications for the ladies' auxiliary.
Mrs. Witte explained that all she had to do was blot out the word
"female" and put "male"; there is no dif?'erence in the applications.
Mr, Mani'el. And that is for the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan?
3634 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Hanna. These were signed National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, did Mr. Wagner ever submit an
application for the Dixie Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir ; I can't say this. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. And do I understand your testimony correctly in
that you also heard discussed a possible assassination on President
Johnson and Vice President Humphrey and Martin Luther King?
Is that correct ?
Mr. Hanna. Well, yes, definitely, there was Mr. Johnson's name
mentioned in regard to elimination. The name "Horatio" was men-
tioned, but there was no last name. And also, Martin Luther King's
name was mentioned. And then they got into her husband, and I can
truthfully say that Mrs. Witte w^as not so sincere about the other
names, but when it came to her husband, Mrs. Witte w^as very sincere.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Hanna, has Mrs. Witte ever discussed with you
any other possible assassination or means of assassination of another
President of the United States ?
Mr, Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please tell the committee what she said in
that regard ?
Mr. Hanna. If they can stand it ; yes, sir.
Mrs. Witte was talking, after this was all over, and I explained to
her the mistake she made by mentioning this, and she explained to me,
she said, "Well, you m.ust realize that I would have killed President
Kennedy if I had a chance."
She said, "Before he visited Cincinnati" — this was when the police
held me in jail while the President visited — she said that "I walked
around Fountain Square looking for a spot to stand so I could get a
bead on him." "Bead" meaning an aim.
She said that "I was going to kill him." And I explained to her
that the Secret Service would have dropped her before she took two
steps, and she said, "Well, I had a plan for that, also. I was going
to ask a woman, I was going to ask a woman who had a baby in her
arms if I could hold it. I was going to set the baby up on my arms
and walk into the President shooting." And she said, "them Feds
wouldn't have dared shoot back at me."
And then is when I believed she was sick, and that's when I talked
to her daughter and that's w^hen I saw this woman was destroying the
Klan, the States Rights Party, and everyone that was connected with
her.
Mr. Pool. Did she, or did Mr. Wagner, ever discuss any plans or
how they could assassinate President Johnson or Vice President
Humphrey, Martin Luther King? Did they go into details?
Mr. Hanna. Not at that time, because she thought I wouldn't listen,
and they knowed if they kept it up, I would have went to the
Mr. Pool. Did they ever discuss it in your presence ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Manltel. Now, at the same time that you had these cotiversa-
tions or heard these things discussed, did Mrs. Witte ever discuss the
presence of weapons or of any type in Cincinnati, which she had ac-
cess to ?
Mr. Hanna, Yes, sir.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3635
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee what her conversa-
tion was in that regard ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; she said when Mr. Kennedy — no, not Mr.
Kennedy, excuse me.
She says, when Martin Luther King arrived in Cincinnati, he spoke
at the Music Hall. She said there is two gims shipped into town
from a personal friend of hers. She didn't mention which organiza-
tion this person represented. She said that one was a German MP-40
Schmeisser submachine gun and one was an M-1 Gerand gun, .45
caliber.
Mr. M\NUEL. And did she tell you that these would be used in any
possible assassination attempt on Mr. King's life?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir ; she did.
Mr. Manuel. Did she identify the source of these weapons to you ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; she did not. She said they were shipped
from Ohio. She did not say exactly where in Ohio. She said, "Keep
this quiet from the Klan and the States Eights." She wanted her
own special people handling it.
Mr. Manuel. And did she at that time tell you where these guns
were stored ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; she said some woman friends of hers had
these guns.
Mr. Pool. Some who?
Mr. Hanna. Woman friends.
Mr. Pool. How about dynamite? Did she ever discuss storage of
dynamite ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; she discussed explosives, but not exactly
dynamite.
Mr. Pool. Bombs?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. Did she say where they were stored ?
Mr. Hanna. These were not stored. She had a person to make
these for her.
Mr. Pool. She had what?
Mr. Hanna. These were not stored bombs. She had a person to
make these for her.
Mr. Pool. Who is the person ?
Mr. Hanna. The boy's name is Henry Muegel.
Mr. Pool. How do you spell that ?
Mr. Hanna. M-u-e-g-e-1.
Mr. Pool. Where does he live ?
Mr. Hanna. He lives at 560 Howell Avenue, in Clifton.
Mr. Pool. Any other discussions you had about that that you would
like to relate to the committee?
Mr. Hanna, Yes, sir; this boy is here — well, she calls this boy "the
boy wonder," Henry Muegel, and she said that H.D., these are ab-
breviated, she said that H.D. could, being a chemist at U.C. and an
employee, could make her bombs which two drops of it would blow
the Carew Tower in Cincinnati up. And she also explained to me that
his boy had advanced knowledge in explosives, since he was a son of
a professor, and that he was an employee and a student there and that
this boy could put two chemicals together, that in a certain period
of time, being mixed, it would blow up.
3636 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. How old was this boy ?
Mr. Hanna. This boy is now 20 years of age. His place was re-
cently raided for rightwdng literature and a printing press.
Mr. Pool. Did he belong to any organization that she had anything
to do with ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir ; he got into the States Rights Party, but they
later kicked him out.
Mr. Pool. He was a member at one time ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes ; Mrs. Witte got him in there.
Mr. Pool. Who kicked him out ?
Mr. Hanna. The leader of the States Rights Party, Jerrold Black,
because this boy w^as half Jewish.
Mr. IVIanuel. Now you state that Mr. Muegel is a student at the
University of Cincinnati ? Is that correct ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir ; he is.
Mr. Manuel. To your direct knowledge, has Mr. Muegel done any
printing for Mrs. Witte ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir ; he has.
Mr. Manuel, I would like to show you a two-page leaflet titled
"Americans" and, on there, several paragraphs relating to John
Foster Dulles and Allen Dulles and world government by socialism.
There are references to J.F.K., L.B.J., and so forth, and so on. On
the bottom of this is printed "NATIONAL KNIGHTS OF K.K.K."
and also on the bottom of the second page is printed "NATIONAL
KNIGHTS OF THE K. K. K."
I hand you a copy of this, Mr. Hanna, and ask if this is one piece
of literature or one leaflet which was printed by Mr. Muegel for Mrs.
Witte and stamped with the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Hanna. Sir, I can't identify this as Mr. Muegel's printing.
However, you have some which I have supplied you with.
No, sir; I could not say one way or the other. I can't comment
on this, sir. I am awful sorry.
(Document marked "Richard Hanna Exhibit No. 1'' appears on
pp. 3637, 3638.)
Mr. Manuel. Now, Mr. Hanna, after your conversation on ap-
proximately Easter of 1965 with Mr. Wagner and Mrs. Witte, did
you see Mr. Wagner again ?
Mr. Hanna. You mean the last time at her house, did I see him
after that?
Mr. Manuel. Yes.
Mr. Hanna. I seen him on television ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you possess any knowledge whatsoever concern-
ing Mr. Wagner's role as a security guard at a Klan rally on Parkie
Scott's farm in May of 1965 ?
Mr. IL\NNA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, did Mr. Wagner act as a security
guard on that occasion ?
Mr. Hanna. Mr. Wagner did act as a security guard.
Mr. Manuel. And how did Mr. Wagner (^et to be a security guard?
Mr. Hanna. Mr. Wagner and myself both became security guards
at that rally through Mrs. Eloise Witte and Parkie Scott.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mrs. Witte, to your direct knowledge, appoint
Mr. Waffner to be a securitv jruard ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3637
Richard Hanna Exhibit No. 1
AMERICANS
Its Time you wake up. Do you nknow about the Gommuniat ,
Jrw, and nigger, con^piraey that is threateni^ig you? . The
conference of foreighn relations or " CP-R." is a sncia
lict world organization that was created by John Poster
and Allen Dulles in Paris France in 1919 with the idea
of world gmveriiient by socialism. Every Presi^^ent since
1 944 except Truman" who was an accident " has belonged
to the "G.P.R," such notables as J.F.K." L.B.J. » Ike
Hubert- Humphery ,Dean ^usk, Arthur Goldberg, a jew, Arthur
Schelesinger a jew, Prestiantial assitant for science
and technology, Jerome Wiesner a jew, Dean Acheson, U.S. I. A.
dirHctor, The late Edwerd R. Marrow, The late Adhlie Steve
son Mc Bumdy, Willam Mc C Forton, George Fc Ghee, George
Ball Harlan, Clevelande Prestiantial AdYiser,John Mc Cloy
and 1400 more in the top positions of our goverment.
They Are in both parties and they are socialist all. The
so called social problen in are country is backed by the
communist jew because it serves aumber of purposes, one
that it supports the Axon, "The Russians will make good
propaganda out are aacial problem", and at the same time
because they contol the press ,raeio, television, Hews media
our educational institutions and the United Counsel of
churches. They have brained washed the white Americam adult
and our childern in tm beliving in the idea- of excepting
the nigger as and eq-ual^ with the <idea of inter acial
59-222 O — 67 — pt. u 11
3638 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Richard Hanna Exhibit No. 1 — Continued
Whioh will result in- mongrelization and loss of national
pride individual spirit- and the will to win, we will be
controlled by a totalitrian goverment will not tellyou
how our nation emerged from world war 11 victoriousand
started our decline by appeasement and wars of attrition
with the idea of not winning which is leading us down the
road to defeat and communism, you as an american should
put pressure on your state represenatives ,make them do
their jobs, and make this county again , '» America Beuti
ful", Ourgoal is to rid america ot all niggers and ship
the niggers , and niggerlovers back to Africa with them.
If L.B.J, has his way, the last genejr9.tion of whites has
been born.'-'hich means your children growing up today will
be half nigger and half white.
P.S.
Association with ones own kind is a god given right not a
goverment given right,
HATIOiUL OIGHTS OF TrfE K,K,K,
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3639
Mr. Hanna. She did so.
Mr. Manuel. And to your knowledge, did Mrs. Wagner know that —
Mrs. Witte know that Mr. Wagner was there armed with a rifle?
Mr. Hanna. Yes ; she did, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you also act as a security guard on that occasion?
Mr. Hanna. I did.
Mr. Manuel. Now, Mr. Wagner, as a result of certain activities at
that rally, was arrested. To your direct knowledge, did Mrs. Witte
post a bond for Mr. Wagner ?
Mr. Hanna. This was told me by Mrs. Witte and Mr. Morris, that
they posted the bond, with Mr. Wagner in the Warren County jail
for carrying a concealed weapon ; yes.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever see Mr. Wagner after the rally at Parkie
Scott's farm ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Manltel. Mr. Hanna, have you had other conversations with
Mrs. Witte regarding plots of acts of violence to be directed against
certain individuals?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you name for the committee persons who were
discussed by Mrs. Witte as being possible targets for acts of violence?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir. There was quite a few. There was a foot-
ball player named Clem Turner.
Mr. Manuel. Clem Turner ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Was he a football player at the University of Cin-
cinnati ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. And did Mrs. Witte discuss with you the desirability
of having certain acts of violence directed against Mr. Turner?
Mr. Hanna. She did, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee what, briefly, was that
conversation ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes. Mrs. Witte lied to me. She said Mr. Turner,
being a black fellow, at one time attacked her daughter; knowing
that I was very much in love with her daughter, she knowed that this
would work me up, and I wanted to beat his head in right then, when
I heard this.
Barbara later said that this was false, that there was no such thing
that happened.
Mrs. Witte, what she wanted me to do was — I believe the proper
pronunciation is to beat the boy, castrate him, and
Mr. Pool. Go a little slower.
Mr. Hanna. To beat him, castrate him, and to cut KKK on his back,
stomach, and each side of his cheek.
Mr. Manuel. And did she discuss with you the means by which
you were supposed to do this ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes ; she did.
Mr. Manuel. And would you tell the committee what that conver-
sation involved?
Mr. Hanna. Well, Mr. Turner playing football hurt his leg, and
he had a cast on his leg. Therefore, she explained that this was an
3640 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S.
advantage point for his attackers. She appointed — she appointed me
several men, and she mentioned several names, and I turned her down.
I said, "What's the matter with Henry Muegel?"
I said, "He done all of your liandy work. He professes to be in
sympathy with your causes and everytliing,*' I said, "How come he
can't go with me ?"
She said, "You must realize, Henry is my right-hand man," and
she said, "He has an education to fulfill, and you have nothing to lose,
and hun being Jewish, he is weakminded and he would talk if he got
caught."
She said, "The only reason why I keep him around is he would
make my bombs, and so on," and she said, "You can do it alone," and
I explained at that time, by castrating a person, he could have bled
to death. They do bleed to death.
I said, it was horrible to cut KKK on a person, and so forth, and
I said outside of beating him, I would not do nothing.
So usually, I talked my way out of doing tilings where Mrs. Witte
tried to involve me, because Barbara and I had this made up, she
said, "Don't pay no attention to mother,'' because her mother was an
alcoholic, and that her mother was sick.
Mr. Manuel. Now, did you have any conversations with Mrs. Witte
regarding possible acts of violence to be directed against certain civil
rights leaders in the area of Cincinnati, Ohio?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. And would you please describe or identify to the com-
mittee those persons who are discussed by Mrs. Witte ?
Mr. Hanna. A woman named Mrs. Green, the NAACP president's
wife.
Mr. Manuel. And do you know her first name ?
Mr. Hanna. Her name is Lucv Green.
Mr. Manuel. And why did Mrs. Witte— first of all, what did Mrs.
Witte say with regard to Mrs. Lucy Green ?
Mr. Hanna. Mrs. Green, who is believed to be a white woman, is
very much in the civil rights move. In Cincinnati, involved a lot,
and Mrs. Witte dislikes this woman very much.
Now, I explained to Mrs. Witte at that time I wasn't in sympathy
with her movement, but there is no use hurting her, and she said, well,
this is what she wanted me to do. She wanted me to take one of her
husband's farming uniforms, put it on, take a clipboard and flashlight,
make it look very official, go to Mrs. Green's house and knock. She
said, Mrs. Green would open the door, she said, I should shoulder-butt
her, go in there and cuff her hands behind her back, chloroform her —
she said, Henry Muegel can mix up the chloroform for me — tear her
clothes off of her, beat her, and cut KKK on her and also on her
children.
At that time, Mrs. Witte Avas under the impression that her children
were youngsters, but later, Mrs. Witte, through myself, found out
that her older child was 16, and I talked Mrs. Witte out of that, again.
Mr. Manuel. Was anyone supposed to accompany you to Mrs.
Green's house ?
Mr. Hanna. She did not actually give me a person. No, sir. She
mentioned Daniel Wagner, and I said, I didn't want nothing to do with
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3641
this boy, due to his attitude, and so forth, and these guns, I said no,
and she named a few other men, and I kept putting them oli' and find-
ing something wrong with them, finding fauk with them somehow.
Mr. Pool. Now, you testified a while ago that you hadn't talked to,
or you hadn't seen, Mr. Wagner for some time.
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. When was the last time you saw him ?
Mr. Haxista. The last time I seen him was on TV. The date he was
arrested. Showed him standing there with police officers, being
searched.
Mr. Pool. About when was that?
Mr. Hanna. That was in May, late. Memorial Day, sir, first day of
the rally.
Mr. Pool. You haven't seen him since Memorial Day ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. So your testimony here this morning — you haven't talked
to him about your testimony here this morning ?
Mr. Hanna. I beg your pardon, sir ?
Mr. Pool. You haven't talked to Mr. Wagner about your testi-
mony here this morning?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Now^, Mr. Hanna, did you have any conversations
with Mrs. Witte w-ith regard to Mrs. Green's husband, Dr. Bruce
Green, head of the local NAACP in Cincinnati ?
Mr. Hanna. She didn't really discuss the man too much. She was
more worried about Mrs. Green than anything. She — Mrs. Green was
one of her main targets.
Mr. Manueu. Nor did Mrs. Witte ever discuss with you the possi-
bility of throwing acid at persons ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes ; she did.
Mr. Manuel. And would you tell the committee which persons were
involved and the circumstances under wdiich these conversations took
place?
Mr. Hanna. Well, first of all, she said, Henry Muegel, this boy she
calls the boy wonder, was planning to pitch acid on Keverend Shuttles-
worth, w^ho is a civil rights figure, Martin Luther King's aide, and a
minister, white minister named Maurice McCracken, and she said
that this would be a good idea, for me to use acid, since Henry can
make it at IJ.C, and they can't trace where it was made.
She said it was boric, or some kind of acid. So later, Mr. Muegel
talked to me at her house and explained it was sulphur burnt, mixed
with something, that was simple to make
Mr. Pool. Did Mr. Muegel know why you Avanted that information?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; I don't believe he knowed the nature of it.
He just simply said he could make it. He was planning on using it on
these civil rights figures and he thought it was a good idea that I go
along with Mrs. Witte's idea.
Mr. Pool. Did he know some of these plans ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. Pool. Can you tell the committee wdiich plans he knew about?
Mr. Hanna. He was aware of the one concerning Mrs. Green. He
was aware of the one concernino; Mr. Turner. He was aware of the
3642 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
one concerning a riot that was planned by Mrs. Witte, a full-stage riot.
This is what I want to mention next.
Mr. Pool. Which plans of Mrs. Witte's did Mr. Wagner know
about ?
Mr. Hanna. This was after Mr. Wagner was no longer with Mrs.
Witte.
Mr. Pool. I see.
Mr. Hanna. Wlien he was in custody ?
Mr. Pool. The subcommittee will take about a 2-minute recess.
(Whereupon, the subcommittee took a brief recess. Subcommittee
members present at time of recess and when hearings resumed : Repre-
sentatives Pool and Buchanan.)
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
Proceed, gentlemen.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Hanna, you mentioned just prior to our short re-
cess the fact that Mrs. Witte had mentioned race riots.
Would you please tell the committee, explain to the committee what
was involved in these race riots which you mentioned.
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; well, as you know, for the last 3 or 4 years,
there has been savage race riots in Harlem, Los Angeles, and Mrs.
Witte — at least, I am very opposed to these riots. I think they should
be investigated, too.
However, Mrs. Witte talked about starting these riots herself and
blaming it on the colored, which I think is twice as bad. Now Mr.
Muegel
Mr. Pool. Right there, can I ask you this : Did she ever relate to you
at any time that she participated in any violence by the Ku Klux Klan
or the States Rights Party ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. She never did tell you that she had actively participated
in anything like that ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir. As far as riots is concerned, she wanted Mr.
Muegel to print a pamphlet. As you know, in the Harlem riots, there
was a group called the Negro liberation party, and they printed a
pamphlet, telling the Harlem freedom fighters how to make a Molotov
cocktail.
Mrs. Witte was in favor of Mr. Muegel to print a pamphlet telling
how to make a Molotov cocktail, putting the half moon and star on
it, and a lot of Muslim words, and passing this through Avondale,
Avhich has a mosque.
Mr. Manuel. And is Avondale is predominantly Negro section of
Cincinnati ?
Mr. Hanna. This would be the main Negro ghetto in Cincinnati —
the largest, that is. And I would say personally, knowing it, that most
of the youngsters out there, is white police haters, that they respect the
Muslim. Mrs. Witte is aware of this. These pamphlets were to be
pasted on walls, put in phone booths and fireboxes, garbage cans, and
so forth, so the youth there could get ahold of them.
Now I explained to Mrs. Witte all the police officer would have to
do is throw a group of them off the corner, and they have tried this.
Now the pamphlet was supposed to read, and I quote, after killing
the police, they were supposed to seize the policemen's guns and clubs.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3643
and so forth, and take over the police cruiser. And it was a horrible
pamphlet which Mr. Muegel was planning to print up.
Now Mrs. Witte abandoned this idea. I don't know if I talked her
out of it. I would like to think so.
Later, she was instrumental in a couple of small riots in Cincinnati.
One boy was hit with a shotgun blast at a football game.
Mr. Manuel. You saj^ Mrs. Witte was instrumental in this. Would
you explain how she was"?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; she had Mr. Muegl call up a predominant
place, a place where it was predominately Negro, a kids' hangout, and
in his white voice, he would say, "If you want to fight us, you meet us at
the football game." Then Mr. Muegel woulfl call up a place which
was predominatly white, and tell them in a colored voice, "Man, if you
want to fight us, you meet us at the football game."
So they automatically would clash, and Mr. Muegel would be no-
where around, Mrs. Witte would be nowhere around, and there was
violence, and there was propaganda for Mrs. Witte, and she would
run to city council with it, and so forth, and say, "Look at these,
wiiat they are doing."
Now a Klan officer almost foimd out about this, and then Mrs.
Witte was very scared that someone in the Klan would find out about
this, or someone in the States Eights Party. This is why she used her
special forces, and she called them
Mrs. Pool. A little slow^er,
Mr, Hanna. Instead of calling us the Green Berets, she called us
the Black Berets.
Mr. Manuel. In other words, your tesimony, as I understand it,
is she w^ould use certain individuals, not necessarily Klan members,
with whom she would discuss these things, and it is your testimony
that she didn't want the Klan leaders to find out about this. Is that
correct ?
Mr. Hanna. This is true, especially William Hugh .Morris and
James R. Venables. I would say, out of the two, Mr. Morris, she did
not want these, because they w^ould be dismissed by the Klan, she
claimed.
She said there is only a couple of Klansmen that she could trust.
She said that she would rather people would be — she would rather
feel people out before she signed them up in a Klan, know what
they do,
Mr. Pool. Let me ask you this question: Was Mrs. Witte drink-
ing when she was telling you some of these things ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; it was just the opposite way around. When
she was drinking, she was nice. When she was sober, she would
Mr. Pool. Why would she tell you all of these things? Wliy?
What was the reason ? Why would she tell you all of these things ?
Mr. Hanna. Well, I always called Mrs. Witte my queen, and I was
devoted to Mrs. Witte. I was very much in love with her daughter,
and Mrs. Witte provided me with a home that I always wanted. So
that's why I would go out there every Friday and Saturday and stay,
because I had no place to go and I found this a good place to be.
Mr. Pool. Another question that occurs is why didn't you report
some of these things to the police ?
3644 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Hanna. Well, mostly on account of Barbara, because Barbara
explained to me that her mother would be put in jail and that it wasn't
right for a person that w\as — in Barbara's words — "sick," to be put in
jail, and she said her mother would never follow through with these
things.
I did tell Barbara this, and she said her mother would never follow
through with these things, and not to go to work and do anything about
it, and Barbara said, "If you love me, Eichard, you will not do that."
And I explained to her. Commander Rockwell has instnicted us to co-
operate, I explained to Barbara this Commander Rockwell, leader of
the American Nazi Party, always trained us to cooperate with the au-
thorities, the FBI, and Secret Service, and she begged me, she said, "My
mother is not altogether well, Richard," and she said, "She don't mean
half of what she says." She says, "My mother hasn't been sane for
the last 2 or 3 years."
Mr. Pool. Just a minute.
Now, as you know, you are under oath, and the things you are telling
are in accordance with the oath you took before this committee
Mr. Hanna. Sir
Mr. Pool. — that you would tell truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God.
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir ; I am telling the truth.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Hanna, as a matter of fact, have you not been on
several occasions questioned regarding certain activities by the Secret
Service and possibly the Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
Mr. Hanna. Two Secret Service men spoke to me in regards to Mrs.
Witte one time ; yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. Wliat were the circumstances ?
Mr. Hanna. This was in regards to the Warren County rally and in
regards to Mr. Wagner. And they talked to me in regards to dynamite.
And I explained at that time that I did not know nothing about dyna-
mite and, as far as I knew, it could be bought about round Cincinnati,
that you had to buy it near lumber camps, or something.
Mr. Manuel. Now, Mr. Hanna, you have testified that there were
certain conversations concerning leaders of civil rights organizations
by Mrs. Witte. Were there also conversations involving possible acts
of violence to be directed against city officials, or judges, in the Cin-
cinnati area?
Mr. Hanna, Yes, sir ; there was one judge.
Mr. Manuel. And who was that judge, Mr. Hanna ?
Mr. Hanna. That is Judge G. S. Heitzler, who is an arch enemy of
the Klan and the States Rights Party in Cincinnati.
Mr. Manuel. And what particular act of violence was discussed
with regard to Judge Heitzler ?
Mr. Hanna. Mrs. Witte wanted Mr. Heitzler also eliminated from
his position, and she said she didn't care how she had to do it, illegally
or legal. And she appointed me executioner, so she had a fellow one
time to drive me to his house and hand me a pistol, so I throwed the
pistol back in, the car. I didn't know where I was going. He lives
about four or five blocks out from Mrs. Witte.
Mr. Manuel. Wio is that individual, Mr. Hanna ?
Mr. Hanna. His name is Bob Brann
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3645
Mr. Manuel. Brannon?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir. What you said; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. And do you know him to be a member of the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. Did she ever threaten, or did she ever discuss, violence
against a leader in the Ku Klux Klan or a member of the Ku Klux
Klan?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir. As far as I can truthfully say, I have never
heard any — I know she hated the leaders and she talked about over-
throwing the Klan and eliminating the leaders, but she never did men-
tion no names for assissination plots.
I know she — from the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Mrs.
Witte — was connected with the Dixie Klan, and now I know she is
trying to get United Klans. She is trying to join the United Klans of
America, Knights of the Ku Klx Klan, and she said she would like to
overthrow Mr. Shelton, too.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, did Mrs. Witte have any dis-
agreement with Mr. William Hugh Morris ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes ; she did.
Mr. Manuel. Wlien did this come to your knowledge ?
Mr. Hanna. The night of the rally. I was clearing the grounds.
Mr. Manuel. Is that Parkie Scott's rally now? Memorial Day
weekend ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, this is. This is the last night of the rally.
Mr. Manuel. Okay. Please proceed.
Mr. Hanna. I went to work and turned in my club for a rifle, and
I started to walk through the grounds and, coming back, I put the
rifle bacl^ in the house. Mr. Morris and Mrs. Witte was in there count-
ing the money and the applications, and so fortli, and I heard them
fighting. And all through the rally, previous to this, Mrs. Witte was
irritated, and so was Mr. Morris, at each other, and during the
money-counting, Mrs. Witte said, "Well, I will tell you one thing,"
she says, "I am not taking peanuts for walnuts," or something like that,
and Mr. Morris said, "This is my third glass. You are not going to
get me drunk to get my money," so he took the grip that liad the money
in it, and chained it to his wrist.
Mr. Manuel. He chained the case that he was carrying money —
to his wrist ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, he did.
Mr. Manuel. Is it your testimony that the basis of their disagree-
ment, to your knowledge, was money?
Mr. Hanna. Money and power.
Mr. Manuel. Would you explain that, the power statement that
you just made? lYliat disagreement existed betAveen Mr. Morris and
Mrs. Witte concerning power?
Mr. Hanna. Well, she said Mr. Morris was a thief and he was
spending the Klan funds upon himself, and Mr. Morris claimed just
the opposite on her; he said fhat she was a thief and spending the
funds, and they both discussed this to me, separate occasions. Really
and truthfully, I can't say w^ho is a thief here, but I know my appli-
cation fee went some place and I didn't benefit, and I know quite
3646 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
a few other people that signed up for applications and not benefit
by them.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Hanna, did Mrs. Witte ever participate in a
demonstration or protest in Cincinnati, where a coffin was used for
some reason or another?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know what happened, and when was this
particular protest or demonstration in Cincinnati, where the coffin
was used ?
Mr. Hanna. This protest was the raising of the U.N. flag in Foun-
tain Square, which was picketed by yours truly, from the American
Nazi Party and the States Rights JParty. I was there that day, and
Mrs. Witte and her group came marching up, the group carrying a
coffin. The coffin had a dummy in it. Mrs. Witte kept this coffin in
her basement at times, and at times other people kept it. This was
one of the props of the National States Rights Parly.
Mr. Manuel. Do you possess any knowledge with regard to the
use of that coffin at private parties held at Mrs. Witte's home?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. How was this particular piece of equipment used?
Mr. Hanna. This piece of equipment was used in what they called
victory parties, when different rights people, civil rights people was
killed, they would have small victory parties at Mrs. Witte's, and
they used to put a dummy inside that. Specially the day Mrs. Liuzzo
was killed, they had a dummy in the coffin, they were drinking and
having party music, they were playing Klan records, and I remember
Henry Muegel went to work and put a record on called The Old
Rugged Cross. He walked over and took a knife and stuck it in the
dummy a couple of times.
Mr. Manuel, Were you in attendance at this party which you de-
scribed ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Who else was there, Mr. Hanna ?
Mr. Hanna. Sir, I can't describe all the people.
Mr. Manuel. Were persons there — were there persons in attendance
whom you knew to be members of the Ku Klux Klan, the National
Knights?
Mr. Hanna. Sir, I have to state here, as I told you previous to this,
that you can't identify a Klansman unless you see him initiated. You
can hear people say he is a Klansman, he can say he is a Klansman, but
in order to say a man's a Klansman, you have to see him initiated.
You have to have proof, and I have never seen any of these men
initiated.
Mr. Manuel. Let me put it to you this way: Were there persons
in attendance at that party whom you had seen at Klan rallies and
Klan functions?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Have you yourself ever attended meetings of tlie Na-
tional Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever attended any meetings at the farm of
Parkie Scott?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3647
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. And when did you attend these meetings?
Mr. Hanna. These were private meetings, held for certain people
only.
Mr. Manuel. Now, at that point, explain what yon mean by that.
Mr. Hanna. A lot of — these people were not necessarily Klans-
men, not necessarily States Rights Party members, not necessarily
Minute people. These people were involved in rightwing movements
at different times, and things was discussed. They used Scott's farm
to discuss these things. I was to four or five of the meetings.
Mr. Manuel. And while in attendance at Parkie Scott's farm,
would you tell the committee very briefly what the conversation was '?
What was discussed ?
Mr. Hanna. Well, first of all, there was discussed about, oh, the
Klan was going to hold a meeting, in Newport, Kentucky, at the Eagle's
Hall. And the news media got ahold of this, and the Eagle's Hall
was alerted, and they couldn't hold their meeting.
So I was invited to this meeting, since I was concerned in this
scuffle with a reporter, so we had it at Mr. Scott's farm. Myself and
the men accused were there, and a few others. They tqjked about
opening a front for the Klan at that time and a meeting hall, that is,
for the Klan, in a private key club, to keep the black race out.
Mr. Pool. The question occurs to me, did Mrs. Witte at any time
ever keep any guns or explosives in her home ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; I have never seen no guns or explosives in
Mrs. Witte's home.
Mr. Pool. The only guns you saw, somebody had brought them in
there.
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. They belonged to somebody else, they didn't belong to Mrs.
Witte.
Mr. Hanna. This is trvie.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Hanna, while in attendance at meetings at Parkie
Scott's farm, did you observe any weapons being transported or
distributed ?
Mr. Hanna. I did so, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you describe for the committee what weapons
and how they were being transported, and so forth?
Mr. Hanna. One evening, 9 o'clock, at the Scott's farm, I was there
for a meeting, a green panel truck drove in, took out cases of Spring-
field rifles. First World War model 30-06 rifles, and then they carried
them to the barn. And when I seen it, not being connected with the
Klan, I would say that is the reason they put me in a car and drove
me away real quick.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know wliere those weapons were obtained?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; I can't even say they were weapons. They
were cases marked U.S. military rifles.
Mr. Manuel. You didn't actually see the weapons. Is that it ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; I did not see the weapons.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know what happened to those boxes after
you left the farm?
Mr. Hanna. No, sif .
3648 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. Did you meet any Klan leaders or people that you thought
of as being Klansmen at Mrs. Witte's home?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, I did.
Mr. Pool. Can you name off some of these people?
Mr. Hanna. People that I have met, I can name off both organiza-
tions, States and the Klan both. Leaders I have met, is this what
you want?
Mr. Pool. Definite leaders of the Klan that you met in Mrs. Witte's
home.
Mr. Hanna. Well, of the Klan I met Mr. Venables.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Venable was at Mrs. Witte's home?
Mr. Hanna. This is true. I met Mr. Morris, Mr. Heflin
Mr. Manuel. Is that Heflin, William Heflin of Chattanooga, Ten-
nessee, known as Doc Heflin?
Mr. Hanna. This is a Mr. Heflin of Chattanooga Dixie Klan, Incor-
porated, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Pool. Now you are sure that you met Mr. Venable in Mrs.
Witte's home?
Mr. Hanna. This is true, sir.
Mr. Pool. Can you recall the occasion ?
Mr. Hanna. He was there for some reason for the Klan, the Klan
initiations.
Mr. Pool. About what month ?
Mr. Hanna. This is when I first met Mrs. Witte.
Mr. Pool. When you first met Mrs. Witte. What month was that,
now?
Mr. Hanna. This was between January and March, He was there
at her home. He was staying with her at that time, at her house, living
there.
Mr. Pool. How long did he stay there ?
Mr. Hanna. Sir, I don't know, because the next week after I went
out, he wasn't there. I only met him and said hello, and he said, "I am
James" — shook hands, and that was it.
Mr. Pool. But he stayed at her house.
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir ; he did.
Mr. Manuel. Did you also meet Mr. William Hugh Morris?
Mr. Hanna. I did, sir.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge, has Mr. William Hugh
Morris ever been a house guest at Mrs. Witte's home ?
Mr. Hanna. He has.
Mr. Manuel. And could you tell the committee when this hap-
pened ?
Mr. Hanna. This happened all through the Klan rally. He was a
guest at her home. They mapped out strategy for the Klan rally, and
so forth, went over papers. And I met him there at her house, and we
talked about the Klan, and so forth, and he told me about the different
movements in the Klan; a little bit about the Klan itself, the baclc-
ground, and the platform.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, did Mr. Morris know that you
had submitted an application for membership into the Klan ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. And you have stated that you have never taken the
initiation or taken the oath to become a Klan member. Is that correct ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3649
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; this is the reason why I made the statement
that Mrs. Witte wasn't really sincere. Now Mrs. Witte told me in
order to be a Klansman, you didn't have to be initated and you had
to have it in your heart, and then they said later, "You have got it in
your heart, and Mrs. Witte has got it in her pocketbook."
Mr. Manuel. Now Mr. Hanna, prior to Mrs. Witte's appearance
before the committee, were you visited by persons known by you to
be affiliated with the Klan movement in some way ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Now would you tell the committee where and when
this visit occurred ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir. This occurred, Mrs. Witte, as you know,
took sick, and she could not testify
Mr. Manuel. This was on Friday ?
Mr. Hanna. Friday. So that Sunday, two men paid me a visit.
Mr. M\NUEL. And who were the two men ?
Mr. Hanna. Well, one of them's name is Simpson.
Mr. Manuel. Is his first name Wilson Simpson ?
Mr. Hanna. Sir, I can't say this, that his name was William Simp-
son ; his name is Simpson, that's all I know.
Mr. Brandenburg made me acquainted with this man. That's all I
knowed, his name was Mr. Simpson, "the little fellow," as they call
him, Mr. Simpson.
Mr. Manuel. And who was the other gentleman '?
Mr. Hanna. The other man, I heard Mr. Simpson say, the name was
Roe or Rose or something like that.
Mr. Manuel. Is that Mr. Curtis Rose ?
Mr. Hanna. Sir, I do not know this.
Mr. Manuel. All right.
And why did these men pay you a visit ?
Mr. Hanna. They thought that I— well, they knowed I was going to
be called next to Washington, they thought that right away, you know,
I would be up here by Monday or Tuesday. And they told me that
if I was brought up here, under guard and everything, to make con-
tact with Mr. Scott and not to trust Mrs. Witte, because Mrs. Witte
has been expelled from the Klan, due to her stupidity, and that, well,
they explained that Mrs. Witte was going to carry the load, to show her
loyalty, and they told me that Mrs. Witte was already going to^ —
Mr. Pool. Go slower.
Mr. Hanna. What Mrs. Witte was going to say.
Mr. Manuel. And what did tliey tell you with regard to Mrs.
Witte's testimony, which she didn't give until Monday ?
Mr. Hanna. They said she was going to take the fifth part of the
time and then square herself with the assassination plots, and she done
this; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. And how was she supposed to "square herself," as you
put it, with the assassination plots ?
Mr. Hanna. She was to make Mr. Wagner look like a — a demented
person. And that she was going to make herself look like a mother to
Mr. Wagner.
Mr. Manuel. Now, at any time during this conversation with these
two individuals, did they ever tell you, or in any way inform you as to
3650 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
what your conduct was supposed to be when you came before the
committee ?
Mr. HJVNNA. Yes ; they did.
Mr. Manuel. And what did they tell you in that regard?
Mr. Hanna. They told me that Eloise taught me to be relaxed at
all times, before an investigation, that I should come up here, that I
should take the fifth amendment constantly, and that I should not
answer no questions, that I should not accept the Government in no
w^ay, shape, or form, or any kind of deals that the Government would
try to make with me, that I am obligated to them, and that Mrs. Witte
is going to handle this matter in her own way.
Mr. Pool. Did you make any kind of deal with the investigators
for the committee ?
Mr. Hanna. No ; I did not, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Hanna, prior to your appearance before the com-
mittee and, as I understand it, before Mrs. Witte's appearance before
the committee, did you attend a meeting at Parkie Scott's farm ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes ; I did, sir.
Mr. Manuel. And when did this meeting take place ?
Mr. Hanna. This meeting took place the same day, sir, the conversa-
tion, the conversation was held going up to Scott's farm.
Mr. Manuel. In other words, these two persons affiliated with the
Klan came to your home and took you to Mr. Scott's farm. Is that
correct ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes ; they did, sir.
Mr. Manuel. What was the purpose of them taking you to Mr.
Scott's farm ?
Mr. Hanna. Sir, I do not know this. They just drove up; they
said, "We need to go for a drive." They said, "We might be being-
watched." They said that there is investigators in town. They said
we know that a couple is coming, a couple more is coming into town, and
we feel as that we should take a drive, since they have got equipment
they can detect voices with, and that we should go for a drive, so
nothing can be found out.
Mr. Manuel. And, specifically, Mr. Hanna, and I will ask you this
question again, did they advise you on how you were supposed to act
when you came before the committee, if you did ?
Mr. Hanna. They said that I was supposed to take the fifth amend-
ment. They said not to tell a thing. They said that Mr. Scott would
advise me when I got here, that Mr. Scott has denounced Mrs. Witte,
the entire Klan has denounced Mrs. Witte.
They said that Mr. Scott said that this is Mrs. Witte's own fault
for getting this young boy involved with us, this Wagner, that is,
and to keep calm, cool, and collected ; Mrs. Witte had to carry the load,
and she was going to take the fifth amendment, part of the time, and
then as far as assassination plots towards her husband, and so forth,
was concerned, that she was going to go to work and testify there and
square herself.
Mr. Pool. Now could you identify these two men, if you saw them
again ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; I could. I identified one. I believe, this
morning, if I am not mistaken.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3651
Mr. Pool. You did what?
Mr. Hanna. I believe I identified a picture of one man this morning.
Mr. Manuel. This morning, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Hanna identified a
picture of Mr. Curtis Rose as one of the individuals.
Mr. Pool. Do you have a picture of Mr. Curtis Rose now ?
Mr. Manuel. Now to your knowledge, Mr. Hanna, w^hat contact
WRS there between Mrs. Witte and persons in Ohio, prior to her tes-
timony? Do you possess any knowledge along those lines?
Mr. Hanna. Rephrase that question just a little, please.
Mr. Manuel. Well, to your knowledge, did Mrs. Witte contact per-
sons in Ohio prior to her appearance before the committee regarding
her testimony ?
Mr. Hanna. I believe she contacted her husband. I know this, be-
cause I talked to her husband. And as a matter of fact, I asked
her husband to ask Mrs. Witte for advice, of what I should do, and
Mrs. Witte had no advice.
.Mr, Manuel. And this was prior to your receiving a subpena to
appear before the committee. Is that correct ?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir ; this is true, sir.
Mr. Manuel. "V^Hiat was the conversation between yourself and Mr.
Witte?
Mr. Hanna. Well, I explained to him that Mrs. Witte is, I told
him, I said, "Mrs. Witte is not in the nicest predicament down in
Washington," and I said, well, he didn't believe none of it. He
said, he didn't think his wife would kill him, that she only beat him
up occasionally.
Mr, Manuel. Did you inquire of Mr. Witte, or did Mr. Witte in-
quire of you, whether the testimony brought out in Washington was
correct ?
Mr. Hanna, No, sir,
Mr. Manuel. He did not.
Mr. Hanna, He did not make a statement to me ; no, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Hanna, during the course of your association
with different Klan groups in the State of Ohio and in the Cincinnati
area, have you become familiar with an organization known as the
Black Shirts?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir ; I have.
Mr. Manuel, And would you tell the committee, to your direct
knowledge, what the Black Shirts is?
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir; the Black Shirts is very similar to Mr. Shel-
ton's security patrol or security guard. They are a force that guard
for the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, These are military
Black Shirts. These men wear gold badges, state trooper hats, pis-
tols, and clubs. As a matter of fact, the first time I seen them, I
thought it was some kind of auxiliary police force or sheriff's depart-
ment, until I recognized a few of the men as being connected with
either the States Rights or the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Now, have you ever been a member of that organiza-
tion, the Black Shirts?
Mr. Hanna. I was considered a member ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. And it was your function, as I understand it, to act
as security guard for rallies.
3652 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Hanxa. This is true, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever meet with members of the Black Shirts
in a closed meeting ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee, to your direct knowl-
edge, who the other members of the Black Shirts are in the State of
Ohio? •
Mr. Hanna. These men have been identified at the rally as Barney
Ross, Ed Green, Malcolm Smith, W. K. Smith.
Mr. Manuel. And Mr. W. K. Smith is from Columbus, Ohio. Is
that correct ?
Mr. HanNxV. He is from Ohio. 1 do not know where.
Mr. IVIanuel. Where is Mr. Barney Ross from ?
Mr. Hanna. Barney Ross is from Walton, Kentucky.
Mr. Manuel. And *Mr. Malcolm Smith ?
Mr. HLvNNA. Malcolm Smith is from somewhere in Ohio.
Mr. Manuel. I am sorry.
Mr. Hanna. Somewhere in Ohio ; I do not know where.
Mr. Manuel. And how^ about Mr. Ed Green ?
Mr. Hanna. Mr. Ed Green is from South Fort Mitchell, Kentucky.
This is in Kenton County.
Mr. IVIanuel. South Fort Mitchell, Kentucky.
Mr. Hanna. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Is there anyone else whom you can identify for the
committee as members of the Black Shirt organization?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; because the men were at the rally, these men
were identified in the newspapers as members of the Black Shirt
Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Other than the incident at the rally in Kentucky, do
you possess any knowdedge regardino: any act of violence carried out
or plotted by members of the Black Sliirt organization?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. M.\NUEL. Mr. Hanna, for purposes of identification, I will show
you a copy of an article which appeared in the Cleveland, Ohio,
Press and News^ on September 27, lOfio, titled "Cambridge Klan
Rally Burns Out," and next to that description of that rally is a
photograph, which shows and identifies Mr. Flynn Harvey and also
identifies another officer of the Ohio Klan, Curtis Rose of Hamilton.
I show you this, Mr. Hanna, and call your attention to the figure
of the person identified as Curtis Rose and ask if this is the man who
paid you a visit along with Mr. Simpson on last Sunday.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Hanna. This picture here is not the one that I actually iden-
tified. The picture was a glossy picture. This is very similar, but
the glossy picture, because you must remember, this man in this pic-
ture has a peak hat on, which is a Klan uniform, and you can't see
his hair. The way I identify this man is due to his haircut and due
to the thinning spots and also to the structure of his nose.
The glossy picture, I could identify. This is very similar to the
glossy picture, but the glossy picture, I would say, is more similar to
the man that paid me the visit than this picture — clipping, rather.
(Document marked "Richard Hanna Exhibit No. 2" follows:)
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
3653
Richard Hanna Exhibit No. 2
[Cleveland, Ohio, Press and News, Sept. 27, 1965]
OHIO GRAND DRAGON Flynn Harvey was asked for
autographs at rally of United Klfln-^ of America at
Cambridge during the weekend. 'Wdiuiing the grand
dragon is another officer of the Ohio Klan, Curtis
Rose of Hamilton.
Rally Bums Out
By Press State Service
CAMBRIDGE — The ballyhoocri Ihice-day rally nf
the United Klan.s nf America near here pxpireri r|iiietly
Saturday night because of lack of attendance, one day
short of its planned length.;
Only about 175 persons at,
tended the final meeting,
which lasted about one hour
and ended with a cross-burn-
Rohprt Sheltnn of Tusca
lon.sa. Ala., Ihe imperial
wizard, did not .spealc at the
meeting as planned.
The State Highway Patrol
and Guernsey County sher-
iff's deputies intervened
when Klan members and
about 15 pickets carrying
anti-Klan placard.s confront-
ed each other.
The officers herded the
pickets across the road and
there was no trouble.
Flynn Ilaivoy of Colum-
bus, grand dragon in Ohio.;
had said he expected seyerat
thousand persons to attenrf
the rally.
The two night meetings
drew a total of less than 25(i
persons.
Harvey said he believed
the group had accomplisherl
what it hoped for and hail
gamed 125 new members.
Mr. Manuel. From that picture alone, Mr. Hanna, are yon able to
identify Mr. Rose as the person who paid you the visit?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; I can't identify this man from — from the
o^lossy picture, there is a very good resemblance, but from this picture,
due to the boy's head and the way the shadow is and the robe itself,
I can't identify this as Mr. Rose ; no, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Now with regard to Mr. Simpson, do you know where
Mr. Simpson is employed, or has been employed?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; I knoAv that he is connected with a TV repair
business. I do not know exactly where.
Mr. Pool. The committee will stand in recess until "I o'clock, Avhen
the witness will return to the stand.
(Members present at time of recess: Representatives Pool and
Buchanan.)
(Whereupon, at 12 : 20 p.m. Monday, February 21, 1966, the sub-
committee recessed, to reconvene at 2 p.m. the same day.)
59-222 O — G7 — pt. u-
-12
3654 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
AFTERNOON SESSION— MONDAY, FEBRUARY 21, 1966
(The subcommittee reconvened at 2 p.m., Hon. Joe R. Pool, chair-
man of the subcommittee, presiding. )
(Subcommittee members present: Representatives Pool and Bu-
chanan.)
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
Continue your interrogation, Mr. Manuel.
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD JOSEPH HANNA— Resumed
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, I just have several more questions
to ask of Mr. Hanna. And with regard to one statement you made
this morning, Mr. Hanna, you stated that you had left membership
in the American Nazi Party in December of 1965.
Now, I ask you is that date correct, or was it a different date?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir; I believe I left the membership in 1964
and contacted Mrs. Witte in 1965.
Mr. Manuel. 1965.
Mr. Hanna. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. In other words, you had left membership in the
American Nazi Party prior to contacting Mrs. Witte?
Mr. Hanna. This is true.
Mr. Manuel. For the record, Mr. Chairman, I would like to
state regarding the photographs in question of this morning's testi-
mony, I have discussed this matter with Mr. Hanna, and it is my
understanding that Mr. Hanna is unable to positively identify both
the glossy photograph which was referred to this morning and the
photograph w^hich appears in the Cleveland Press, which was re-
ferred to, so I state for the Chair that the investigative staff will
look further into this to try to determine the identity of these two
people and also the identity of the person who called on Mr. Hanna
at his home, about which he testified.
Mr. Pool. Let the Chair also state, in the Chair's opinion, the
photographs are not good enough photographs for purposes of
identification, in my opinion.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Hanna, you stated that two individuals, one
of whom you know to be a man named Simpson and another was
identified to you as either Roe or Rose, paid a visit to you last
Sunday to discuss certain matters relating to your appearance,
possible appearance before the committee, and also told you certain
facts concerning Mrs. Witte's appearance before the committee.
Now, prior to Sunday, did these same two individuals visit you?
Mr. Hanna. Friday, Mr. Simpson visited me and talked to me
briefly. He told me he would be getting in contact with me, and I
w^aited for him. We got into his car and drove up to Scott's farm
and discussed it and told us what we were going to say up here.
Mr. Manuel. On the Friday visit, what was discussed by Mr.
Simpson ?
Mr. Hanna. He said we were faced with a serious problem be-
cause, as he put it in his own words, fouled up with this kid and
this kid put the finger on a lot of people.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3655
Mr. Manuel. Was he referring to Daniel Wagner?
Mr. Hanna. Yes; he was. He said I should be tight-lipped and
not talk to Walter Huff because Walter Hufl' was involved with
Bobby Stephens who was an FBI or police informer.
Mr. Manuel. Did you know Walter Huff to be a member of the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Hanna. AValter Huff told me in a personal conversation he
has been in the Klan since 1923.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know him to hold any office in the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Hanna. No, sir ; I do not.
Mr. Manuel. IMf. Cliairman, the staff has no further questions
to ask of Mr. Hanna at this time.
Mr. Pool. When these people contacted you and talked to you
just before Mrs. Witte went on the stand and testified, did they
at any time threaten you '?
Mr. Hanna. Well, they sort of beat around the bush. They ex-
plained to me that the Klan — that anyone in the Klan who talks,
their life is not worth a nickel. I told them I was not obligated to
the Klan in any way, shape, or form and if I wanted to tell the
truth, I would, and if I was subpenaed I would tell the truth.
They said, "What do you know to be the truth?" I said, "I am
not at liberty to say.'' Mrs. Witte, also previous to this, threatened
my life several times — Mrs. Witte, that is.
Mr. Pool. The Chair wishes to tell you that you are protected
under the Federal statutes and if at any time you are threatened,
or any of your relatives are threatened, or there is any other form
or fashion of a threat, you should get in touch with the committee
and let them know about it, because under the Federal statutes,
anything in connection with an inquiry or investigation being held
by either House or any committee of either House or any joint com-
mittee of Congress, any witness under those circumstances is covered
by this Federal statute and there is a stiff penalty for anyone to
attempt to interfere with a committee.
Mr. Hanna. May I say one thing on behalf of my presence here,
that as far as I know, we have some people from the Klan here,
one who I know personally, Mr. Stoner, from the National States
Rights Party, and I know quite a few Klansmen.
I think by coming up here testifying against Mrs. Witte I am
doing the Klan and the States Rights Party a favor. I talked to
Mr. Stoner awhile back and I made the remark on a few activities
of Mrs. Witte dealing witli people who should not be in the States
Rights Party, and this has been taken care of.
The Klan should thank me, I believe, for coming up here to testify.
I have done no harm to the Klan. If the Klan wants to stay a clean
group, they should not have these people in their organization such
as Mrs. Witte, because she will do them more harm than good.
I hope I can ahvays speak to these men as far as friends are con-
cerned. I have nothing against these people. Any traitors that are
going to do our country harm, such as assassinate the President or
hurt our cause or the security of our country, I will turn them in at
any opportunity I can and see they are dealt with justly.
3656 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. There have been a great many people identified before
this committee who are, in my opinion, very unsavory and irresponsible
people. I think, of course, the Klan has too many of these types of
people in the Klan. Perhaps these hearings will help clean out the
Klan and maybe elevate their purposes a little.
Mr. Hanna. I would hope this very much.
Mr. Pool. If it does not, I would hope they would disband and get
into some other kind of organization that might be more helpful to
the country.
Do you have anything, Mr. Buchanan?
Mr. Buchanan. No.
Mr. Pool. I do want to state that your testimony this morning .and
the testimony of Mr. Wagner and the testimony of Mrs. Witte con-
vinces me that certainly there has been perjury committed before this
committee and I, for one, am going to do everything I can to have
the committee present this evidence and the transcript to the Justice
Department with the idea of prosecuting the ones who have committed
perjury before this committee.
I am convinced of it this morning. I w.as convinced of it the other
day, but I am more convinced today than I was the other day.
I do want to state that you have been very cooperative with the
committee.
Mr. Hanna. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Pool. And for that the committee thanks you.
Mr. Hanna. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Pool. You are excused permanently .as a witness, but I want
to point out to you and anyone else who might hear about this or be
in the audience that your protection is good for many months aftei
this hearing is over with. I believe it is 5 years.
So with that admonition I gave you a little while ago, please con-
tact us if anyone does contact you and thinks you have done a dis-
service and tries to harm you or tries to intimidate you in any way.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Appell. Eunice Grover Fallaw.
Mr. Pool. Raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and notliing but the truth, so help vou
God?
Mr. Fallaw. I do.
TESTIMONY OF EUNICE GROVER FALLAW, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, J. B. STONER
Mr. Appell. Would you state your full name for the record ?
Mr. Fallaw. Eunice Grover Fallaw.
Mr. Appell. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Fallaw. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Counsel identify himself for the record.
Mr. Stoner. J. B. Stoner, attorney at law, from Augusta, Georgia.
Mr. Appell. Are you appearing here today in accordance with a
subpena served upon you at tlie Winner Motor Companv, Cocoa,
Florida, on January 28, 1966 ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3657
Mr. Fallaw. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Fallaw, when and where were you born ?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Appell. Would you give the committee a brief resume of your
educational background?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Appell. Would you give the committee a brief resume of your
employment background ?
Mr. Pool. Mr. Appell, did you ask him if he had read the opening
statement?
Mr. Appell. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. Fallaw, did you receive a copy of Chairman Willis' opening-
statement of October 1965 and are you familiar witli tlie contents
thereof ?
(No response.)
Mr. Appell. Would you give the committee a brief resume of your
emnlnvnent back^rround?
Mr. Fallaw. I refuse to do so on the ground that my answers might
tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Appell. Under the terms of the subpena served upon you and
an attachment thereto, which was made a part of the subpena, you
were commanded to bring with you and to produce documents de-
scribed in two paragraplis, paragraph 1 reading :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to
the organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the United Florida
Ku Klux Klan in your possession, custody or control, or maintained by you or
available to you as present or former officer of the United Florida Ku Klux Klan.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 1, Mr. Fallaw,
I ask you to produce the records called for.
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so
might tend to incriminate me and I also refuse to answer by invoking
all of my rights and privileges under the 1st, 2d, 5th, 6th, 4th, 6th,
8th, 9th, 10th, and Uth amendments of the Constitution of the United
States.
Mr. Pool. Did you give the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Fallaw. Yes.
Mr. Appell. I did not ask you a question. I asked you to produce
documents. Will you produce the documents, or are you refusing to
produce them on the grounds you are now setting forth?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Fali^w. I refuse to under the groiuids of the 1st, 5th, 4th, 6th,
Sth, 9th, 10th, 11th, and Uth amendments of the United States.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be directed to
produce those documents called for in his representative capacity as
outlined in paragraph 1.
Mr. Pool. I order and direct you to produce those documents re-
quested by the interrogator pursuant to the terms of the subpena, para-
graph 1, and to produce the documents called for therein in the repre-
sentative capacity stated therein.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
3658 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Fallaw. Again, under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 11th, and
the 14th amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Pool. I want to tell you this before I order and direct you for
the last time, that the House by an overwhelming vote supported this
committee's request that certain witnesses be cited for contempt of
Congress, by overwhelming vote. Citations for seven of them were
sent to the Justice Department for further action.
With that in mind, I order and direct you to produce the documents
called for in this subpena, paragraph 1, in your representative capacity
as called for in the subpena.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Fallaw. I refuse on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. Your answer is rejected by the Chair.
Go ahead, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. Paragraph 2 calls for you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your pos-
session, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your capacity
as present or former oflBcer of tbe United Florida Ku Klux Klan, which the "Con-
stitution and Laws" of said organization authorize and require to be maintained
by you and any other officer of said organization, the same being in your posses-
sion, custody or control.
In the representative capacity set fortli in paragraph 2, 1 ask you to
produce the documents called for.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Fallaw. I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so might
tend to incriminate me and I also refuse to answer by invoking all of
my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th,
and the 14th amendments of the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Fallaw, again you were not asked a question. You
were asked to produce documents called for in a representative ca-
pacity. Do you refuse to produce the documents under the grounds
you have previously stated ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Fallaw. Under the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. You refuse to produce the documents called for.
Mr. Chairman, in light of the witness' refusal to produce the docu-
ments called for in paragraph 2, I ask that tlie witness be directed to
produce the documents.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have given for your refusal to produce
the documents called for by this part of the subpena do not legally
justify your refusal, and this answer is rejected. I order and direct
you to produce those documents called for by the interrogator in re-
sponse to the paragraph 2 of the subpena in your representative
capacity stated therein in the subpena.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Fallaw. Could I say something here at this point, sir?
Mr. Pool. Go right ahead.
Mr. Fallaw. Without waiving anything — in other words, some-
thing I would like to say and we would take this back up again.
Mr. Pool. We don't give you any immunity or anything; however,
you can say anything you want to, but I warn you ahead of time, any-
thing you say will go into the record.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3659
Mr. Pool. Is it your claim that you do not have the documents?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, I have never had any documents.
Mr. Pool. You do not have them at the present time ?
Mr. Fallaw. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. And you liave never liad them in your possession, custody.
or control ?
Mr. Fallaw. I have never been an officer of the Klan to the point
where I would have any documents.
Mr. Pool. What about paragraph 1, the first request? Does the
same thing apply there ?
Mr. Fallaw. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. You do not have the documents called for in paragraph
1 or 2?
Mr. Fallaw. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. You have never had them in your possession and never
had control or custody ?
Mr. Fallaw. I have never had any control of that part of the
organization.
Mr. Pool. Who does have control and custody of them ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Fallaw. I refuse to answer on the grounds that my answer
might tend to incriminate me, and the fifth.
Mr. Pool. In view of the witness' answer, Mr. Appell, I think you
can go ahead and ask your next question.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that the witness
has testified that he has never held a position within a Klan organiza-
tion which required him to have and maintain records of the organiza-
tion called for in paragraph 1 and paragraph 2 of the subpena, and
you asked him for his knowledge as to the identity of the members
who did possess those documents, I ask that he be directed to answer
your question with respect to who did have and maintain the records.
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, I would like to say one more thing.
Mr. Pool. Go right ahead.
Mr. Fallaw. Since the FBI investigation in Jacksonville 2 years
ago, they advised me to just stop right where I was. And it has been
2 years since I have been in contact with any organization whatsoever
or the Klan, and I don't even have the slightest idea now what is
going on or vice versa.
Mr. Pool. You don't know who has control of these documents or
records ?
Mr. Fallaw. At the present time, I couldn't tell you who is an
officer or who is not.
Mr. Pool. Did you know who had them ?> or more years ago.
Mr. Fallaw. It is possible.
Mr. Pool. Wlio had them 3 years ago ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Pool. Are you refusing on the grounds that you took an oath
to the Ku Klux Klan that you would not reveal the names of any of
the members?
Mr. Fallaw. I will use the fifth again, sii'.
3660 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. You are refusing on the grounds of the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Fallaw. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. I order and direct you to identify who has the records if
you don't have them. Since you opened it up, I order you now to
either produce tlie documents or state wlio has them or who had them 2
or 3 years ago, the last time you knew about them. That is up to you
now. I am ordering and directing you to do that. This is the final
time I am going to direct you to do that.
Mr. Fallaw. I wouldn't know who ^^■as doing it now ; but 3 years
ago, at that time, tliere was a fellow wlio was our secretary, and I pre-
sume he would have had such records.
Mr. Pool. What was his name ?
Mr. Fallaw. I couldn't begin to spell it. Philip S-t-a-t-m-i-o-r-e
or something like that.
Mr. Appell. Is that John E. S-t-o-u-d-e-n-m-i-r-e ?
Mr. Fallaw. This was some 3 years ago, sir, and like I said, I have
not had any connection or affiliation with them since then.
Mr. Pool. You know nothing about the records for the past 3 years?
Mr. Fallaw. Absolutely nothing.
Mr. Pool. We accept your statement on that.
Mr. Appell. When did you cease being a member of a Klan
organization?
(Witness confers with counsel. )
Mr. Fallaw^ Sir, I am going to use the fifth here. I refuse to
answer on the grounds that to do so might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Appell. As an officer of the United Florida Klaus, did you at-
tend as a delegate meetings of the National Association of Ku Klux
Klan organizations w^hich w^as chaired by James R. Venable?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, I refuse to answer on the grounds to do so might
tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Pool. On the grounds previously stated?
Mr. FxVLLAw. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. That includes the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Fallaw. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. On April 6, 1963, did you attend such a meeting of the
National Association in Biloxi, Mississippi?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, I will stand on the fifth again. Do you want me
to read all of this ?
Mr. Appell. No, sir; and it will be acceptable to the committee if
you will just say for the reasons previously given.
At the meeting in Biloxi, Mississippi, on April 6 and 7, 1963, were
the other delegates from the United Florida Klan Jason Kersey of
New Symrna Beach and William Eogers of Tallahassee ?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, I stand on the fifth as previously stated.
Mr. Appell. On May 26, 1963, did you attend a meeting of the Na-
tional Association under the chairmanship of James R. Venable at the
Dinkier Hotel in Atlanta?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previously.
Mr. Appell. On August 3 and August 4, 1963, were you a delegate
to the National Association of Ku Klux Klan organizations, that
meeting held at the Dinkier Hotel in Atlanta?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previously.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3661
Mr. Pool. Mr. Appell, are these dates you are asking about during
the past 3 years?
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir. This is August 3, 1963.
Mr. Pool. I believe in your testimony a while ago you said you had
nothing to do with the Klan.
Mr. Fallaw. Two years and one month.
Mr. Pool. Do you have any dates in there, Mr. Appell, that would
be inclusive of the time that he said he had nothing to do with the
Klan?
Mr. Appell. We are working up to some dates, jSIr. Chairman.
Did you attend a Klan rally at Stone Mountain, Georgia, on Au-
gust 31, 1963 ?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previously.
Mr. Appell. Were you a speaker at that rally which, as a part of
your remarks, you made the statement, "I'm 48 years old and I may
not live to be 50, but when my kids put me in the ground they'll know
1 died like a white man" ?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previously.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Fallaw, who were the other delegates to the Na-
tional Association of Ku Klux Klan organizations?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previously.
Mr. Appell. On November 30, 1963, Mr. Fallaw, the National As-
sociation held a meeting at the Henry Grady Hotel in Atlanta.
According to the committee's investigation, at the close of that meeting,
attacks were made upon Gene Fallaw, Comiie Lynch, for their orga-
nizing efforts in north Florida. They were criticized — and you were
criticized and Connie Lynch was criticized because you were raiding
the Klan organization, the United Florida Klan, headed by Jason
Kersey. Was that factual as of that time ?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previously.
Mr. Pool. Did you say it was factual, Mr. Appell?
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. When Mr. Appell says it is factual, he has taken the
oath early in the hearings and he is stating under oath that it is
factual. You are having the chance here now to deny it.
Mr. Appell. ]Mr. Fallaw, did you and Connie Lynch and J. B.
Stoner attempt to form a new Klan organization in opposition to the
United Florida Klan headed by Jason Kersey ?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I will take the fifth as previously.
Mr. Appell. Were you attempting to start an independent Klan
group, or was there a promotion whereby you might transfer this
membership into the United Klans of America under Robert Shelton?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I will take the fiftli, as previously.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Fallaw, on August 17, 1963, Connie Lynch spoke
at a United Klans rally in Spartanburg, South Carolina. Did you
arrange for Connie Lynch to speak at that rally ?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previously.
Mr. Pool. When was that ?
Mr. Appell. August 17, 1963.
Mr. Fallaw, starting July 27, 1963, did you, Connie Lynch, Calvin
Craig, J. B. Stoner, Don Cothran conduct a series of Klan rallies
tlirouffh the Jacksonville-St. Auirustine area of Florida ?
3662 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Fali.aw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previously.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Fallaw, the Legislative Investigation Committee
of the Florida Legislature under the chairmanship of R, O. Mitchell,
conducted an investigation and lield some hearings with respect to the
racial and civil disorders in St. Augustine, Florida. Page 31 of their
report gives chronological events in St. Augustine in a section headed,
"The K.K.K. Arrives."
The first date refers to the date of September 18, 1963, states, and
I quote :
Dr. Robert Hayling and three colored companions were severely beaten when
they tried to observe a Ku Klux Klan meeting 3 miles south of St. Augustine.
Deputy sheriffs rescued the four Negroes and arrested four Jacksonville Klans-
men. The St. Augustine Record reported that this "the first open meeting of
its kind in this area in recent years." A crowd of 400 attended the first night's
session and well over 2,500 on the second night. Klansmen reported many new
I'ecruits.
Did you organize that rally on September 18, 1963?
Ml*. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previously.
(Document marked "Eunice Fallaw Exhibit No. 1" and retained in
committee files.)
Mr. Appell. Was Connie Lynch the principal speaker at that rally?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previously.
Mr. Appell. Do you recall that Connie Lynch made reference to
his being interviewed by the FBI and then asking him, "Do you know
who bombed the church in Birmingham?*', and of Connie Lynch tell-
ing the people there, "I said no and if I did I wouldn't tell you," and
then to the people he said, "But I will tell you people here tonight
that if they can find those fellows, they ought to pin a medal on them."
Did you hear Connie Lynch state that ?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previously.
Mr. Appell. Did you also hear Connie Lynch say to the people
gathered that he was speaking for God and that those people in the
audience had better listen to them, and then he said :
"We've got guts enough to do something about the situation and no other
organization has. AVe need a good strong group in St. Augustine. You come
and sign up. But don't come if you are weak or a coward. This ain't no
peaceful organization. We aim to do whatever is necessary to put the Nigger
back in his place, preferably in his grave."
Do you remember Connie Lynch saying that ?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I will stand on the fifth as previously.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Fallaw, do you remember the Klansmen assembled
discovering the four Negroes in the vicinity of the rally? Do you
remember that?
Mr. Fallaw\ Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previously.
Mr. Appell. Wlien those Negroes were brought to the platform that
was being used to address the audience by the Klansmen, will you tell
the committee which of the Klansmen that were at that rally actually
participated in the beating of those Negroes ?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previously.
Mr. Appell. Were you one of them who actually participated in
that, Mr. Fallaw?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previous.
Mr. Appell. Was Joseph H. Bedford, Albert T. Massey, Robert
Sylvester Arant, and Connie Lynch also involved in the beating of
those Negroes?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3663
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previous.
Mr. Appell, Mr. Fallaw, the sheriff's department arrived and res-
cued the Negroes and arrested four individuals who were still at the
scene, whose committee investigation showed had no actual participa-
tion in the beating. They just happened to be there when the sheriff's
members arrived. The four they arrested were Dewitt Wade String-
field, Lawrence Allen Bessent, Clarence Oscar Wilson, and Jarmou
Davis, all of Jacksonville, Florida.
Did you know those four men to be members of the Klan?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previous.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Fallaw, were you a member of the United Florida
Klan on the night of February 15-16, 1964, when the home of Donald
Godfrey was bombed?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previous.
Mr. Pool. That has been less than 2 years and 1 month.
Mr. Fallaw. That was about the time the FBI started the investi-
gation.
Mr. Pool. That is about 2 years and a week.
Mr. Fallaw. As soon as that investigation was over, I had no affilia-
tion whatsoever.
Mr. Pool. You are changing your testimony again now. You hrst
said it is 3 years since you had anything to do with them, then you said
2 years and 1 month. Are you changing it again uoav ?
Mr. Fallaw\ This was as far as United Florida was concerned.
Mr. Pool. Any Ku Klux Klan organization.
Mr. Fallaw. As far as my figures, and I could be wrong as to the
dates, but as soon as the actual — and I imagine he has it over there —
when I was picked up here at the Federal Building, 1 week after that
I resigned from the organization and had nothing further to do with
it or with anything.
Mr. Pool. Any kind of Ku Klux organization ?
Mr. Fallaw, That is right.
Mr. Pool. Any name similar to that ?
Mr. Fallu\w. That is right.
Mr. Pool. Or any cover name ?
Mr. Fallaw. After I took that lie detector test in Jacksonville.
Mr. Pool. You have not been a member under any cover name since
that time ?
Mr. Fallaw. That is right.
Mr. Pool. That is the last statement you are going to make on
that?
Mr. Fallaw. It was a week or a week and a half — in other words,
when I took that lie detector test.
Mr. Pool. When was that?
Mr. Fallaw. I couldn't give you the exact date. I don't know.
Mr. Pool. What month was it?
Mr. Fallaav. He has it there somewhere.
Mr. Appell. Was it after the bombing and before the arrest or
indictment of those arrested ?
Mr. Fallaw. It was before the arrest. There was an investigation
made there.
Mr. Appell. There were indicted in March.
Mr. Fallaw. Forty or fifty of us were picked up, and it was before
the indictments that all of this other transpired.
3664 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. What knoAvledge did you possess of that instance that
they were investigating ?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previous.
Mr. Appell. To what extent to your knowledge was the KLan active
in late 1963 in the St. Augustine area ?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previous.
Mr. Appell. You stated that you had not had anything to do with
the tJnited Florida organization for 3 years and 1 month. You then
stated that you have had nothing to do with a Klan organization of
any nomenclature since sometime after the 15th of February and the
middle of Marcli. What Klan organization were you active in imme-
diately prior to your quitting any Klan affiliations?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previous.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Fallow, prior to your quitting the Klan after in-
vestigation by the FBI in either February or March of 1964, how long
had you been an active member of a Ku Klux Klan organization?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previous.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Fallaw, the committee's information is that you
were affiliated with the Association of Georgia Klans, with the U.S.
Klans, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, with the Ku Klux Klan organi-
zation in Florida, with the United Florida Ku Klux Klan. Were you
ever affiliated with any other Klan organization ?
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, again I stand on the fifth as previous.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions.
Mr. Pool. Why did you quit the Ku Klux Klan? Can you give
me a reason since that time why you quit? I am sure you thought
about the reason you quit.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, I would like to invoke the fifth as previous on
that.
Mr. Pool. I am not asking you about something that happened
while you were a member. I am asking you why you quite the Ku
Klux Klan. What do you think of the Ku Klux Klan today? I will
ask it that way.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Pool. This is your chance to make a statement.
Mr. Fallaw. Sir, I would like to stand on the fifth.
Mr. Pool. I thought you were going to talk there for a while when
you set a date as to when you got out. You cut it off and you don't
explain to the American people why you got out. I think it would be
very pertinent if you want to do it.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Pool. It is up to you and your lawyer. I am not telling you to
disregard his advice. I am just wondering what you would say. Do
you care to make any statement ?
Mr. Fallaw. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused permanently.
Mr. Appell. Mr, Robert Pittman Gentry.
Mr. Pool. Raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Gentry. I do, sir.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3665
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT PITTMAN GENTRY, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL. J. B. STONER
Mr. Stoxer. I represent Mr. Gentry, also.
Mr. Pool. Let us get the witness identified first.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Gentry, will yoii please state your full name for
the record ?
Mr. Gentry. Robert Pittman Gentry.
Mr. Appell. You are represented by counsel?
Mr. Gentry. I am, sir.
Mr. Appell. Will counsel identify himself for the record?
Mr. Stoner. I am J. B. Stoner, attorney at law, from Augusta,
Georgia.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, would you give us your business address?
Mr. Stoner. The Marion Building, in Augusta, Georgia.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Gentry, are you appearing here today in accord-
ance with a subpena served upon you on the 31st day of August 1965,
by Mr. Ray McConnon, an investigator of this committee, which called
for your original appearance and you did appear on September 29,
1965, in executive session ?
You have been continued since that time, have you not, and you are
appearing today in that sequence ?
Mr. Gentry. That is correct.
Mr. Appell. When and where were you born, Mr. Gentry?
Mr. Pool. Let me ask if you have been furnished a copy of the
opening statement?
Mr. Gentry. I have.
Mr. Pool. And you understand the contents of the chairman's open-
ing statement?
Mr. Gentry. I do, sir.
Mr. Appell. When and where were you born, Mr. Gentry?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me and I assert
my right not to answer guaranteed to me by the fifth amendment of
the Constitution.
Mr. Pool. How old are you ?
Mr. Gentry. I respectfully decline to answer that question on the
grounds that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Pool. Were you born in the United States?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Pool. I can't see where that would incriminate you if you were
born in the United States and I do not see how your age would
incriminate you.
Are you basing your answer on the fact that your answer would
tend to incriminate you under the fifth amendment?
Mr. Gentry. That is correct.
Mr. Pool. Do you honestly feel that way ?
Mr. Gentry. I do.
Mr. Pool. Well, I don't think so.
Go ahead, Mr. Appell.
3666 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
There is no use staring at me. One of the witnesses tried it, and it
didn't work.
Mr. Appell. Did you appear before the committee in executive ses-
sion in September 1965 ?
Mr. Gentry. I respectfully decline to answer that question on the
grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Gentry, were you represented by Mr. J. B. St oner
at that time even though Mr. Stoner did not accompany you?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the gromids that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Gentry, there is a document signed J. B, Stoner,
attorney at law, Marion Building, P.O. Box 184, Augusta, Georgia,
addressed :
Petition to the House of Representatives, United States Congress,
Washington, D.C.
Re: The Investigation by the House Comm. Un-American Activities of the Ku
KIux Klan and my client, Mr. Robert Gentry.
Gentlemen : Today, September 27, 1965, my client and friend, Mr. Robert
Gentry, testified before the House Un-American Activities Committee as a result
of a subpoena having been served upon him.
Upon my legal advice. Mr. Robert Gentry invoked the Fifth Amendment to
the Constitution upon being questioned. As a result of his exercising said Con-
stitutional right, Chairman Willis and Committee Investigator Ray McConn '
threatened him with contempt, thereby violating his Constitutional rights. In
an effort to bulldoze Mr. Gentry, Chairman Willis and Investigator McConn^
mentioned other cases where vpitnesses had been indicted for failing to answer
questions of the Committee, failing to point out to Mr. Gentry that the Fifth
Amendment was not invoked in the other cases.
Mr. Gentry will continue to use the Fifth Amendment because the purpose
of the Committee is to obviously try to get him to incriminate himself and,
under the Constitution and consistent Supreme Court rulings, I can guarantee
Mr. Gentry that he will never be convicted. Nobody has ever been convicted of
using the Fifth Amendment before a Congressional Committee and Chairman
Willis undoubtedly knows it. The Fifth Amendment was placed in the Con-
stitution by the founding fathers for the benefit of American patriots and
now is the time for them to use it when efforts are being made to incriminate
them.
Wherefore, I hereby petition you to pass a resolution reprimanding Chairman
Willis, the House Committee on Un-American Affairs and Investigator Ray
McConn ^ for misusing a Congressional Committee to persecute a patriotic White
Christian American Citizen and to order them to cease and desist. The Commit-
tee should be upholding the Constitution instead of trying to wreck it.
Mr. Gentry, can you explain to me how this was sent to the Speaker
and received by him on September 28 when you did not appear before
the committee in executive session until September 29?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the grounds that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
(Document marked "Robert Gentry Exhibit No. 1" appears on
p. 3667.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Gentry, in the course of some 3 days that you were
here did you offer to aid the staff in its inquiry into the Ku Klux
Klan organizations?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the ground that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
^ Correct nanio "McConnon".
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3667
Robert Gentry Exhibit No. 1
PETITION TO THE HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES
UNITED STATES CONTOESS ^'^
WASHINGTON, D.C.
Re: The Investigation by the House Comm.
Un-American Actlvitlfcs of the Kli
Qentlemen: Klux Klan and my client, M-. Robert
Gentry.
Today, Septembet 27, 1965, my client and friend, rt-. Robert Gentry
testified before the House Un-American Activities Committee as a result
of a subpoena having been served upon him.
Upon my legal advice, Mr-. Robert Gentry Invoked the Fifth
Ainendment to the Constitution when being questioned. As a result
of his exercising said Constitutional right. Chairman Willis and
Committee Investigator Ray rfcConn threatened him with contempt,
thereby violating his Constitutional ri^ts. In an effort to bull
doze M". Gentry, Chairmen Willis and Investigator MsConn mentioned
other cases where witnesses had been Indicted for failing to answer
questions of the Conmlttee, failing to point out to Mt-. Gentry that
the Fifth Amendment was not invoked in the other cases.
^fr. Gentry will continue to use the Fifth Amendment because the
purpose of the Conmlttee is to obviously try to get him to incriminate
himself and, under the Constitution and consistent Supreme Court rulings,
I can guarantee Ifr. Gentry that he will never be convicted. Nobody haa
ever been convicted of using the Fifth Amendment before a Congressional
Committee and Chairman Willis imdoubtedly knows it. The Fifth Amendment
vas placed In the Constitution by the founding fathers for the benefit of
Anerlcan patriots and now is the time for them to use It when efforts are
being made to Incriminate them.
WHEREFORE, I hereby petition you to pass a resolution reprimanding
Oialrnaji Wlllla, the House Committee on Un-American Affairs and Divestl-
^tor Ray ffcConn for misusing a Congressional Committee to persecute a
patriotic White Christian American Citizen and to order them to cease and
dealst. The Conmlttee should be upholding the Constitution instead of
trying to wreck It.
Respec tfullx--«ub^tlftil*_____^
v.B. Stoner
Attorney at Law
Jfcrion Building
P.O. B ox 184
Augusta, Georgia
Phone 724-07S2, area code 404
3668 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Gentry, I desire to read into the record a state-
ment, after which I will give you an opportunity to respond to any
]3art of that statement :
Kobert Pittman Gentry was subpenaed on August 31, 1965,
by B. Ray McConnon, Jr., an investigator of the Committee
on Un-American Activities. Gentry arrived in Washington,
D.C., on September 27, 1965, and was a witness in executive
session on September 29, 1965.
In advance of the 29th, Gentry offered his knowledge to
the staff, but reserved the right to claim privilege before the
committee unless certain conditions he outlined would be met.
The conditions rejected by the committee were :
1. No part of the testimony to be made public;
2. No testimony given by him would ever be used against
him in a trial or for an indictment ; and
3. He be allowed to "discriminately" invoke the fifth
amendment.
Wlien Chairman Willis pointed out to the witness that it
was impossible to comply with his demands due to the law and
conditions which might arise, Gentry inA'oked constitutional
privilege on questions relating to Klans, Klan violence, ex-
cept that he denied membership on date of appearance on
September 29, 1965.
Gentry was born on July 7, 1938, at Nashville, Tennessee.
During interviews with staff members, Gentry admitted
joining the Klan shortly before June 25, 1961. At the time
he joined, the Florida Klan was afRliated with the newly
formed United Klans, which split from the United Klans
and became independent.
Gentry was assigned to the Robert E. Lee Klavern No. 8,
which was one of the six Robert E. Lee Klaverns in the Jack-
sonville, Florida, area. After 6 months, he became kligrapp,
or secretary, of the Klavem. In the late fall of 1963, he was
elected grand klexter or outer guard.
Members, according to Gentry, were even carried on rolls
by number and code. Only the kligrapp and the exalted
Cyclops knew the identity of all, based upon their committing
knowledge to memory. Some members never paid dues, at-
tended meetings, or were even carried on the rolls.
No law enforcement people were members of his Klavern.
He w^ould not identify State or municipal officials in the Klan.
He stated that the Klan did have people of political prom-
inence as well as scum.
The Klan screened its membership in order to detect and
eliminate informers, but they were not interested in "getting
troublemakers out."
The dues in Gentry's Klavern were $2.50 per month, with
part of the dues being set aside in a special emergency fund.
Money from the special collections were also placed m this
fund. Gentry, in stating that the existence of the special fund
was unknown to the general mmebership, described the funds'
purpose as providing bail, attorneys, or ''Mexican vacations."
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3669
According to Gentry's knowledge of possible infiltration by
. agents of law enforcement agencies, important business relat-
ing to cross-burnings, intimidation, or violence was not dis-
cussed before the general membership l^ut before a klokann
conunittee comprised of the most trusted members. The com-
mittee might only discuss and make plans and then get others
not on the committee to carry out the plan. The klokann
committee must have the exalted cyclops' approval before
carrying out violence, except murder. Murder must be ap-
proved in advance by the Grand Dragon.
Gentry denied any knowledge of plans to bomb the God-
frey residence or also participating in the stealing of dyna-
mite. He admitted riding with William Rosecrans and firing
a shotgun at Eugene Striggler, 2649 Bethel Eoad, Jackson-
ville, Florida, a Negro employee of Tamiami trucking
company, as their car passed Striggler's station wagon at a
high rate of speed.
Gentry stated that he deliberately shot to miss. This oc-
curred on February 6, 1964, with the main charge from the
shotgun striking Striggler's station wagon about the center
of the rear door window on the driver's side of the vehicle.
Gentry admitted being in Birmingham. Alabama, on
September 15, 1963, but would not discuss his purpose for
being there or the identity of those persons with whom he met.
Gentry stated that Gene Wilson, Bart Griffin, Gene Spegal,
and himself were deputy sheriffs to L. O. Davis, St. Johns
County. Davis, according to Gentry, was not a Klansman
but allowed Klan meetings to be held in the county jail and
also loaned sheriff department automobiles to the Klansmen.
Gentry identified Spegal as the exalted cyclops of the
Robert iE. Lee Klavern No. 13, Kenneth Overstreet as the
exalted cyclops of the Robert E. Lee Klavern No. 6, Bart
Griffin as the exalted cyclops of the Robert E. Lee Klavern
No. 13, and the Grand Dragon replacing Gene Fallaw.
He identified other grand officers ser\dng with him as :
Buddie Cooper and "Hoss" Manucy of St. Augustine,
Florida ; Paul Steadman, Gene Wilson, and Gene Spegal.
Gentry identified J. B. Stoner as a hidden member of the
Klan who possessed a passport which entitles Stoner to be
admitted into any Ignited Florida Klan Klavern.
Mr. Gentry, I give you this opportunity to add any comment that
you desire to make on this statement that has been read to you.
Mr. Gentry. I respectfully decline to answer, sir, on the grounds
that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Gentry, in view of your refusal to rebut the state-
ment made by the investigator, there is only one thing this committee
can do and that is to accept the statement as read for our purposes
unless you have something to offer or to comment on or reject or deny
the statement or make any further statement about it, we are going
to accept that statement. ' »
Now, do you have any statement ?
Mr. Gentry. No, sir; I respectfully decline to answer, on the
grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
59-222 O— 67— pt. 5 13
3670 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. This is your opportunity right now to tell the United
States and the world and the people of America whether or not the
statement is true.
(Witness confers with comisel.)
Mr. Gentry. I respectfully decline to answer Mr. Appell's question
on the grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Pool. In other words, you are going to take the fifth amend-
ment on that statement ; is that correct ?
Mr. Gentry. That is correct.
Mr. Pool. That is your privilege.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Gentry, William Eosecrans, who admitted to the
actual bombing, manufacturing, and making of the bomb that dyna-
mited the residence of Donald Godfrey, advised that 13 cases, each
containing 165 sticks of dynamite, were stolen by him and other
Klansmen in December 1963.
He further advised that some of the dynamite was used to make
grenades by packing dynamite, nuts, and bolts into a can and attach-
ing a fuse.
Do you possess knowledge of the manufacture of such grenades?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question
on the grounds that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Appell. Eosecrans further advised that you, Gene Wilson,
Gene Spegal, and Bart Griffin discussed using this type of grenade
on the liquor store located at Linturner and Edgewood Avenues in
Jacksonville, also on the NAACP headquarters, also located in Jack-
sonville.
Was Eosecrans telling the truth ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question
on the grounds that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Appell, did he testify to his age before the com-
mittee in the executive session ?
Mr. Appell. I don't believe so, but his birth date, according to our
records, is July 7, 1938, at Nashville, Tennessee.
Mr. Gentry, I hand you some pages from a looseleaf binder, headed
"Start Of 2nd Trial, 11/18/64." Let me hand you these and ask you
if you turned these over to me while you were here in Washington in
September of 1965?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question
on the grounds that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
(Documents marked "Eobert. Gentry Exhibit No. 2" and retained in
committee files. )
Mr. Appell. You thumbed through this. Is this your writing ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question
on the grounds that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Gentry, were you, William Sterling Eosecrans,
Barton H. Griffin, Jacky Don Harden, Donald Eugene Spegal,
Willie Eugene Wilson indicted on a two-count indictment, charged
with violating an injunction against interference with the attendance
of Negroes at Lackawanna Public School and, second, a conspiracy
which reads —
did combine, conspire, confederate and agree with each other and with divers
other persons to the Grand Jury unlvnown, to injure, oppress, threaten and in-
timidate Donald Godfrey, a Negro citizen of the United States, and other persons
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3671
similarly situated, in the free exercise and enjoyment of, and on account of their
having exercised, a right secured to them by the Constitution and laws of
the United States, namely, a right to attend the Lackawanna Public School and
other public schools in Duval County, Florida, pursuant to the permanent in-
junction of the United States District Court for the Southern District of Florida
made and entered the 21st day of August, 1962 * * *.
Is that factual ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the grounds that my answer might tend to incriminate me and also I
refuse to answer by invoking all of my privileges under the 1st, 4th,
5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th amendments to the Constitution of
the United States of America.
Mr. Pool. Did you include the fifth ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir ; I did.
(Document marked "obert Gentry Exhibit No. 3'' appears on pp.
3672,3673.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Gentry, is it a further fact that at the end of the
first trial, count two of the indictment was dropped against you ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me, and I as-
sert my right not to answer as guaranteed to me by the fifth amend-
ment of the Constitution.
Mr. Appell. Is it true both counts were dropped against Jacky Don
Harden ?
Mr. Gentry. I respectfully decline to answer that question on the
grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Appell. The second trial that these notes report on result from
tlie fact that the first jury resulted in a hung jury with a vote of 10
to 2 and when we get to these notes we are getting to a second trial
which started on 11-8-64.
Do you possess any knowledge of dynamite that was found on
Hickscher Drive on March 20, 1964, as testified to in that trial by
agents of the FBI?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the grounds the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Appell. Can you tell me what is the significance of the page
which is headed "Bill Rosecrans 5th Amendment" and then the word
"Hooray"?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Gentry, you told me this morning that approxi-
mately 3 weeks ago an attempt, in your opinion, had been made upon
you by some occupants in an automobile bearing California tags, not
otlierwise identified.
Was such an attack made upon you ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Pool. This happened 3 weeks ago.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Gentry advised me this morning. I asked him if
it was factual or not.
Mr. Gentry, have you ever, in connection with your conversations
with me or other members of the staff, been under assignment from
anyone that you knew to be a member of a Klan organization?
Mr. Gentry. Would you please restate that?
3672 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Robert Gentry Exhibit No. 3
UNITED STATES DIST".-:r COURT
MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
JACKSONVILLE DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
V, No, Cr-J
(18 use 241, 1509)
WILLIAM STERLING ROSECRANS, Jr.,
a/k/a JAMES LEWIS
ROBERT PITTMAN GENTRY
BARTON H. GRIFFIN,
a/k/a BART rJlIFFIN
JACKY DON HARDEN
DONALD EUGENE SPEGAL,
a/k/a GENE SPEGAL
WILLIE EUGENE WILSON,
a/k/a GENE WILSON
The Grand Jury charges:
cprajT o:']"
Beginning on or before September i, 1963, and continuing until the
date of this Indictment, in D'lval County, in the Middle District of
Florida, and at divers other places to the Grand Jury unknown, WILLIAM
STERLING ROSECRANS, Jr., a/k/a JAMES LR7IS, ROBERT PITTMAN GENTRY, BARTON
H. GRIFFIN a/k/a BART GRIFFIN, JACKY DON HARDEN, DONALD EUGENE SPEGAL
a/k/a GENE SPEGAL and WILLIE EUGENE WILSON a/k/a GENE WILSON, co-defendants
and CO -conspirator 3, did combine, conspire, confederate and agree with
each other and with divers other persons to the Grand Jury unknown, to
injure, oppress, threaten and intimidate Donald Godfrey, a Negro citizen
of the United States, and other persons fiimilarly situated, in the free
exercise and enjoyment of, and on account of their having exercised, a
right secured to them by the Constitution and laws of the United States,
namely, a right to attend the Lackawanna Public School and other public
schools in Duval County, Florida, pursuant to the permanent injunction
of the United States District Court for the Southern District of Florida
made and entered the 21st day of August, 1962, and the Final Order of the
United States District Court for the Middle District of Florida entered
the 8th day of May, 1963, in the case entitled Braxton et al. v. Board of
Public Instruction of Duval County, Florida, et al.. No. 4598-Civil-J;
in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 241.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3673
Robert Gentry Exhibit No. 3 — Continued
COUNT TWO
On or about February 16, 1964, WILLIAM STERLING ROSECRANS, Jr., a/k/a
JAMES LEWIS, ROBERT PITTMAN GENTRY, BARTON H. GRIFFIN a/k/a BART GRIFFIN, /
JACK? DON HARDEN, DOilALD EUGENE SPEGAL r./k/a GSNE SPEGAL, and WILLIE.
EUGENE WILSON a/k/c GF)^:; I.'tLSC^F, by tlirer-ts and force, did unlawfully
prevent, obstruct, impede and interfere wir-.hjand did unlawfully attempt
to obstruct, impede and interfere with, the due exerciae of rights by
Donald Godfrey ani others similarly situated under an Order, Judgment
and Decree cL the Court of the United States, to-wit, the Decree for
perngnent iiijunct:-.ou signed by Chief Judge Bryan Slapson of the United
States District Crurt for the Southern District of Florida, Jacksonville
Division, ;.:i the ccfq of Braxton et al, v. Board of Public Instruction
of Duval County, Florida, et al,, No, 4598-Civil-J, as modified by the
Final Order signed by Chief J-ad-^e. Bryan Simpson of the United States
District Court for the Middle District of Florida in the aforesaid
case; in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1509.
FOREMAN
EDWARD F. BOARDMAN
United States Attorney
By.
Assistant United States Attorney
3674 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. In your conversations with me or other members of the
staff, have you been under any instructions issued to you by anyone
you knew to be a member of a Klan?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further question^ to
ask of Mr. Gentry.
Mr. Pool. Have you ever been threatened about your testimony?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Pool. If you w^ant to tell us about it, I point out to you that
a Federal statute protects you as a witness subpenaed before this
committee and I doubt veiy seriously that anyone would harm you.
It covers a 5-year period and it is a stiff penalty. If 3'ou want to
reveal anything to the committee, we would be glad to hear from you.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Gentry. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. You do not have any statement to make about that?
Mr. Gentry. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. Do you have any questions, Mr. Buchanan?
Mr. Buchanan. No questions.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused permanently.
Mr. Gentry. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Pool. The committee stands in recess for 5 minutes.
(Whereupon, a brief recess w^as taken. Subcommittee members
present at time of recess and when hearings resumed : Representatives
Pool and Buchanan.)
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
The Chair wishes to make the statement and stand corrected : The
act of intimidation or threat that I mentioned to the witnesses earlier
could happen at any time, and they would still be under the protec-
tion of the Federal law. The 5 years applies to the statute of limita-
tions. In other words, after the threat was given, there is a 5-year
statute of limitation on prosecution.
I wanted to have the record show that as a correction.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Appell. Jacky Don Harden.
Mr. Pool. Raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the wliole truth, and nothing but the trutli, so help you God ?
Mr. Harden. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JACKY DON HARDEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
J. B. STONER
Mr. Appell. State your full name for the record.
Mr. Harden. My given name, or the name I go by ?
Mr. Appell. Your legal name.
Mr. Harden. Jaclcy Don Harden.
Mr. Appell. What name do you go by ?
Mr. Harden. Jack.
Mr. Appell. Jacky. You spell it J-a-c-k-y?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3675
Mr. Harden. J-a-c-k-y.
Mr. Appell. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Harden. I am.
Mr. Appell. Will counsel identify himself?
Mr. Stoner. J. B. Stoner, attorney at law, Marion Building,
Augusta, Georgia.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Harden, when and where were you born?
Mr. Harden. I refuse to answer, on the grounds that the jvuswer
may tend to incriminate me, under the fifth amendment of the Con-
stitution of the United States of America.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Appell, ask him about the opening statement of the
clvainnan.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Harden, did you receive a copy of, and become ac-
quainted with, tlie opening statement of Chainnan Willis given in
October of 1965 ?
Mr. Harden. I did receive a copy.
Mr. Appell. Are you familiar with its contents ?
Mr. Harden. In brief; yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Will counsel stipulate that he is familiar?
Mr. Harden. I am familiar.
Mr. Pool. Do you care to have any further time to study it ?
Mr. Harden, 1 have read over it sufficiently.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Harden, are you appearing here today in accord-
ance with a subpena served upon you in Jacksonville, Florida, on
January 24, 1966 ?
Mr. Harden. Yes.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Harden, the subpena served upon you contains an
attachment thereto, which is made a part of the subpena, and under
the conditions of the subpena you are commanded to bring with you
and to produce tliose documents set forth in paragraph 1, as follows :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the United Florida
Ku Klux Klan and affiliated organizations ; namely, Robert E. Lee Klavern
508, Jacksonville, Florida, in your possession, custody or control, or maintained
by you or available to you as former Exalted Cyclops, Robert E. Lee Klavern
#508, United Florida Ku Klux Klan.
In the representative capacity set forth there, Mr. Harden, I ask
you to produce tlie documents called for.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Harden. I refuse to answer that question, sir, invoking all of my
in-ivileges and rights under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and
14th amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you ha^■e given for your refusal to produce
these documents as called' for by this subpena do not legally justify
your refusal, and those reasons are rejected.
I order and direct you to produce these documents at the request of
the interrogator pursuant to the terms of the subpena and to produce
the documents called for therein in the representative capacity stated
in the subpena.
Mr. Harden. Sir, I respectfully refuse, on the previously stated
grounds.
Mr. Pool. Your answer is rejected.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Harden, paragraph 2 called for you to produce :
3676 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your posses-
sion, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your capacity
as former Exalted Cyclops, Robert E. Lee Klavern #508, United Florida Ku
Klux Klan, which the "Constitution and Laws" of said organization authorize
and require to be maintained by you and any other officer of said organization,
the same being in your possession, custody or control.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 2, I ask you
to produce the documents called for.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Hardex. I refuse to produce so on the grounds to do so might
tend to incriminate me, and I refuse to answer bv — or to produce, under
the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and the 14tli amendments to the
Constitution of the United States of America.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have given for your refusal to produce
the documents called for by this part of the subpena do not legally
justify your refusal, and your answer, therefore, is rejected.
I order and direct you to produce the documents called for by the
interrogator in response to paragraph 2 of the subpena in your repre-
sentative capacity stated therein in the subpena.
Mr. Harden. I refuse to answer or produce them on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Pool, Your answer is rejected.
Go ahead, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Harden, in March of 1964 were you indicted along
with William Sterling Rosecrans
Mr. Pool. Pardon me just a moment, Mr. Appell.
Do you have the documents in your possession ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Harden". I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. I want to find out if you have the documents in your pos-
session. If you do not, do you want to explain when was the last time
that you had them ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Harden. Sir, I refuse on the same grounds.
Mr. Pool. Your refusal is rejected, and I order and direct you for
the last time to produce the documents called for in paragraph 2 of
the subpena. And I want to point out to you that other witnesses have
refused to produce docmnents called for similar to this instance here,
and the House of Representatives has overwhelmingly backed this
committee and sent the citations for contempt to the Justice Depaii:-
ment for further action.
Do you still want to make any statement ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Harden. Sir, I refuse on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. Your grounds are rejected.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Harden, were you indicted in March 1964, along
with William Sterling Rosecrans, Robert Pittman Gentry, Barton H.
Griffin, Donald Eugene Spegal, and Willie Eugene Wilson, under a
two-comit indictment growing out of the bombing of a residence of
Donald Godfrey of Jacksonville, Florida ?
Mr. Harden. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
that this answer might tend to incriminate me, and invoke my rights
under the fifth amendment of the Gonstitution of the United States of
America.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3677
Mr. Appell. Is it a fsict that at the conclusion of the first trial that
counts one and two were dropped against you ?
Mr. Harden. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that its
answer might tend to incriminate me, and invoke my rights under the
fifth amendment of the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Pool. If you wish, you can say, Mr. Witness, you refuse on tlie
gi'ounds previously stated, if it is the same as previously stated.
Mr. Harden. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that the record of the
case reflects that the two-count indictment against Mr. Harden was
dropped, I direct that he answer the question as to wliether or not it is
factual that the two counts were dropped.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Appell. I ask that he be directed to answer that question, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Pool. Ask your question again.
Mr. Appell. Is it a fact that at the conclusion of the first trial that
the indictment of yourself under counts one and two was dropped?
Mr. Harden. I respectfully refuse to answer on the grounds pre-
viously stated, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Harden, w^ere you acquainted with Earl Sidney
Jordan, who testified in the second trial in November and identified
himself as a former member of the Klan ?
Mr. Harden, Sir, I refuse to answer, on the ground previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Harden, an account in the W ashington Post of
November 22, 1964, states, in reference to Earl Sidney Jordan, that :
.Jordan testified that Barton H. Griffin, one of the defendants, aslced him to fill
out an application to join the Klan. He said he heard Griffin discuss dynamite
on one occasion and another time he saw a 30-g:allon drum full of dynamite at the
home of William Sterling Rosecrans, Jr., who has pleaded guilty to conspir-
ing to bomb the home.
.Jordan said he was stationed as a road guard during the first pai't of the Klan
initiation, and heard a loud explosion. He testified it sounded like dynamite.
Jordan said he was later taken back to the place of the initiation and saw
Griffin and another man set off dynamite blasts in cans.
Were you one of tlie men who set otf dynamite blasts at that Klan
initiation ceremony ?
Mr. Harden. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated, under the fifth amendment.
(Document marked "Jacky Harden Exhibit No. 1'" appears on p.
3678.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Harden, is it a fact that you were born September
28, 1938, at Griffin, Georgia ?
Mr. Harden. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
])reviously stated,
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that you received a general edu-
cation diploma while serving in the United States Navy.
Mr. Harden. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that you reside at 15339 Duval
Road, Duval County. Florida.
Mr. Harden. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on tlie grounds
previously stated.
3678 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Jacky Harden Exhibit No. 1
[Washinglon Post, November 22, 1964]
Former Klaiisiiiaii Says Dyiiaiiiile
Was Set Off as Initiation Ritual
I
JACKSONVILLE, PU . Nov.
21 (OlM)— A former mrtnher
Af iht Kb Khiw.jci«n teiUlied.
Tn'rHfral Vo{i\ri tMiy UK
ht ■ attrndrd. an Inlllallon
where dynamltr wa« net off
"•t WHIT* AT ImM of a «Wm-
onilrallMi "
The Ualiiitutu' hy Lar 1 Sid
nfy Jordan, 24, canif i>n the
f^fth day of thf rHflal «f four
Klaniimrn rharKcd In ronnrr
Uon wUh Ihp hnnihlnR of the
home of a NVgro bov who
hrokf thr rolor line at an
rlentrntary arhool
Th* four were Ihh^A In a
mUtrUl laat ^uljkwhen a Juryj
waa unablv to reach a verdlrt
Jordan teatlfled that Hartonl
H (iriffin. one of the defend
ant*, aaked hlni to fill out an,
aindlratlon to Join the Klan i
lie aatd he heard (irifftn dli '
ruii dynamllV on one i>c^ai>un
aiMl another time he law a SO
gallon drum full of dy/tainile
at the home of William Sler
Itnt Woiaocaoa Jr., who haa.
pIradH lullty to ronntiirini:,
to bomb the honir
Jonlan kaid he \*a« sta(loiM->l
a> a riMMl tiuanl itiirini: the
firil iMkrt of the Klan iniiiatiiii
anil ht>anl ■ liiuti rxpliMiim Mt*
laallflcU II koyikdnl llk<< ilMia
"Hie • .»,
llnrttab kaiill lti< w «% laitt
talM»4ta«'k to thr plat-r iil tltt*
InitlaticMi an0 uw (;rirrin and
another man act off dynamite
-bUau In oana.
Chanted with .rtmipirtnc to
vtulata th« cIvU rtjthu »f the
NrRro hoy, dyrar-old Donald i
Godfrey, wore Donald KuKenoj
StM«gal Wnite Kuifpna WUaon,
RoTirTfT* TTFfflfi/TlM (tHfflfi '
All but Ci^ntry are aNt
rhartsnl wllh ohNtrurttnt; a
Federal Cwirt order for denett-
rruallon of l.a<'kawat)iu Kit'
in«iil«ry Srituul htev.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that you are employed by Owens-Illinois, Wood Products
Division in Jacksonville, Florida.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Harden. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
to do so might tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to answer
by invoking all of my rights under the 1st, 4th, 5th, Btli, 8th, 9th,
10th, and 14th amendments to the Constitution of the T'nited States.
Mr. Pool. What company did he work for ?
Mr. Appell. Owens-Illinois.
Mr. Pool. Your employment there would tend to incriminate you (
Is that what you are saying?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Harden. Sir, I am refusing that on the ground previously
stated, including the fifth amendment.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Harden, I put it to you as a fact that you admitted
during testimony at the first trial that you were the exalted cyclops of
Robert E. Lee Klavern No. 508. I put that to you as a fact, and as]<
you to affirm or deny the fact, that you did so testify.
Mr. Harden. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
that answ^er to that question might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that other members of Eobert
E. Lee Klavern 508 were Robert Pittman Gentry and Saint Elmo
Mattox.
Mr. Harden. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Pool. The Chair wishes to advise the witness that when he puts
it to you as a fact, he is testifying under oath. He has previously been
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3679
SATorn, and his statement is sworn testimony when he puts it to you
as a fact.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Harden, Kobert Gentry advised members of the
staff of the committee that Robert E. Lee Klavern No. 508 maintained
a special fund out of which bail was raised, attorneys secured, and what
he described as Mexican vacations financed.
Do you possess know'ledge of such a fund?
Mr. Harden. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Gentry also advised the staff that \vithin the
Klavern there was a klokann committee and that acts of violence to
be carried out under the supervision and direction of this committee
were to be approved by the exalted cyclops.
As the exalted cyclops of the Klavern, did you ever approve such
acts?
Mr. Harden. Sir, I refuse to ansAver that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Appell. As an exalted cyclops of the Klavern, could you tell
the committee the purpose of a klokann committee?
Mr. Harden. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Harden, was the testimony of yourself in the Fed-
eral trial in Jacksonville, which grew out of the bombing of the Donald
Godfrey home, truthful ?
Mr. Harden. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Appell. To your certain knowledge, was the testimony of your
codefendants truthful ?
Mr. Harden. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
])reviously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions to ask
this witness.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused.
Mr. Appell. Saint Elmo Mattox.
Mr. Pool. Raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Mattox. I do, sir.
TESTIMONY OF SAINT ELMO MATTOX, SR., ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, J. B. STONER
Mr. Appell. Mr. Mattox, state your full name for the record.
Mr. Mattox. Saint Elmo Mattox, Sr.
Mr. Appell. In writing your name, is "Saint" abbreviated ?
Mr. Mattox. Saint or S.E. Igoby "S.E.,"also.
Mr. Appell. Your middle name is Elmo, and your last name is
spelled M-a-t-t-o-x ?
Mr. Mattox. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Mattox. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Counsel, please state your identification.
3680 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Stoner. J. B. Stoner, Marion Building, Augusta, Georgia.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Mattox, are you appearing here today in accord-
ance with a subpena served upon you in Jacksonville, Florida, on the
24th day of January 1966 ?
Mr. Mattox. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Mattox, under the terms of the subpena which
was served upon you, an attachment, which was made a part of the
subpena, called upon you to bring with you and produce certain
documents set forth in the attachment, paragraph 1 reading :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the United Florida
Ku Klux Klan and aflSliated organizations ; namely, Robert E. Lee Klavern
#508, Jacksonville, Florida, in your possession, custody or control, or main-
tained by you or available to you as present or former Exalted Cyclops of the
Robert E. Lee Klavern #508, United Florida Ku Klux Klan.
In a representative capacity set forth in paragraph 1, Mr. Mattox,
I ask you to produce the documents called for.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Mattox. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer on the grounds
that to do so might tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse by invok-
ing all my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th,
10th, and 14th amendments of the Constitution.
Mr. Pool. He didn't ask you to answer. He asked you to produce.
Mr. Mattox. Sir, I refuse, on the previous ground.
Mr. Pool. You refuse to produce the documents called for?
Mr. Mattox. On the previous grounds stated; yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have given for your refusal to produce
the documents called for by this part of the subpena do not legally
justify your refusal, and these reasons are rejected.
I direct and order you to produce these documents called for by the
interrogator pursuant to the terms of the subpena, to produce the
documents called for therein in the representative capacity stated in
the subpena.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Mattox. I refuse on the ground that to do so might tend to
incriminate me, and also I refuse by invoking all my rights and privi-
leges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th amendments
of the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Pool. Your reasons are rejected.
Mr. Appell. Paragraph 2 calls for you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your pos-
session, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your capacity
as present or former Exalted Cyclops of the Robert E. Lee klavern #508, United
Florida Ku Klux Klan, which the '•Constitution and Laws" of said organization
authorize and require to be maintained by you and any other officer of said
organization, the same being in your possession, custody or control.
I ask you to produce the documents called for in the representative
capacity set forth in paragraph 2.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Mattox. I respectfully decline to do so on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have given for your refusal to produce
the documents called for by this part of the subpena do not legally
justify your refusal, and your answer is, therefore, rejected.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3681
I order and direct you to produce the documents called for by the
interrogator in response to paragraph 2 of the subpena in your
rei3resentative capacity stated therein in the subpena.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Mattox. I respectfully refuse to do so on the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Pool. Your refusal is rejected.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Mattox, I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to
affirm or deny the fact, that you were elected the exalted cyclops of
Robert E. Lee Klavern 508 in 1964.
Mr. Mattox. I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so would
tend to incriminate me and in accordance with the fifth amendment
of the United States Constitution of the United States of America.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Mattox, did you succeed Jir^ky Don Harden as
the exalted cyclops of Robert E. Lee Klavern No. 508 ?
Mr. Mattox. I refuse on the grounds previously stated, sir.
Mr. Appel. Mr. Mattox, what information do you possess of
violence carried out by members of Robert E. Lee Klavern No. 508 in
Jacksonville-St. Augustine area of Florida?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Mattox. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated,
sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Mattox, do you know Willie Eugene Wilson to
have been the exalted cyclops of Rol)ert E. Lee Klavern No. 1-3?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Mattox. I refuse to answer, on the same grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Do you know Barton H. Griffin to have been an
exalted cyclops of Robert E. Lee Klavern No. 13 ?
Mr. Mattox. I refuse to answer, on the grounds that to do so
might incriminate me, as previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Do you know Robert Vincent Hamrick to have been
exalted cyclops of Robert E. Lee Klavern No. 14 in Jacksonville ?
Mr. Mattox. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Mattox, does Robert E. Lee Klavern No. 508 and
Robert E. Lee Klavern No. 13 both use 11741 Main Street, Jackson-
ville, Florida, as the meeting place for their Klaverns?
Mr. Mattox. Sir, I refuse to answer on the grounds previo\isly
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Mattox, I put it to you as a fact that you were
born on June 3, 1907, at Lake Butler, Florida.
(Witness confers Avith counsel.)
Mr. Mattox. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to }'ou as a fact that you have a ninth grade
education and you reside at 1013 Seminole Avenue, in Jacksonville.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Mattox. I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so
might tend to incriminate me, and also by invoking all of my rights
and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6tli, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th
amendments of the Constitution of the Ignited States.
Mr. Pool. If you wish, you can say you refuse on the grounds
previously stated, if that is your grounds. It will save time.
3682 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions to
ask of this witness.
Mr. Pool. Do you have any questions, Mr. Buchanan ?
Mr. Buchanan. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused permanently.
Mr. Appell. Barton H. Griffin,
Mr. Pool. Raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Griffin. I do.
TESTIMONY OF BARTON H. GRIFFIN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
J. B. STONER
Mr. Appell. State your full name for the record.
Mr. Griffin. Barton H. Griffin.
Mr, Appell. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Griffin. I am.
Mr. Appell. Counsel, please identify yourself for the record.
Mr. Stoner. J. B, Stoner, Marion Building, Augusta, Georgia,
Mr, Appell, Mr, Griffin, are you appearing here today in accord-
ance with a subpena served upon you in Jacksonville, Florida, on
January 25, 1966 ?
Mr, Griffin, Yes.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Griffin, under the terms of the subpena
Mr. Pool. Just a moment.
Mr, Griffin, are you familiar with the chairman's opening state-
ment of October 1965 and the contents therein ?
Mr, Griffin, I was given a copy of it, which I read.
Mr. Pool. Do you understand it ?
Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir,
Mr. Pool. You don't care to examine it any further?
Mr. Griffin. No, sir.
Mr. Pool, Go ahead, Mr, Appell,
Mr. Appell. The subpena contained as an attachment, which was
made a part of the subpena, and under the terms of the subpena you
were commanded to bring with you documents described in the at-
tachment, which reads, paragraph 1 :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to
the organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the United Florida
Ku Klux Klan and aflBliated organizations ; namely, Robert E. Lee Klavern
513, Jacksonville, Florida, in your possession, custody or control, or maintained
by you or available to you as present or former Exalted Cyclops, Robert E. Lee
Klavern 513, United Florida Ku Klux Klan.
In the representative capacity set forth in the subpena, Mr. Griffin,
I ask you to produce the documents set forth, in the representative
capacity stated therein,
Mr, Griffin, I refuse on the grounds that to do so might tend to
incriminate me, and I also refuse to produce by invoking all of my
rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and
14th amendments to the Constitution of the United States,
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3683
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have given for your refusal to produce
the documents called for do not legally justify your refusal, and these
reasons are rejected.
I order and direct you to produce these documents as called for by
the interrogator pursuant to the terms of the subpena and to produce
the documents called for therein, in the representative capacity stated
in the subpena in paragraph 1, the documents in paragraph 1.
Mr. Griffin. My answer is the same.
Mr. Pool. Your reasons are rejected.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Griffin, paragraph 2 of the subpena calls for:
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your pos-
session, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your ca-
pacity as present or former Exalted Cyclops, Robert E. Lee Klavem 513, United
Florida Ku Klux Klan which the "Constitution and Laws" of said organization
authorize and require to be maintained by you and any other oflBcer of said
organization, the same being in your possession, custody or conrtol.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 2, I ask you
to produce the documents called for.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to produce on the grounds that to do so might
tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to produce under all of my
rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and
14th amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have given for refusal to produce these
documents called for by this part of the subpena, paragraph 2, do not
legally justify your refusal, and your answer is, therefore, rejected.
I order and direct you to produce the documents called for by the
interrogator in response to paragraph 2 of the subpena in your repre-
sentative capacity stated therein in the subpena.
Mr. Griffin. I refuse for the previously stated reasons.
Mr. Pool. Your reasons are rejected by the committee.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Griffin, when and where were you born ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer, as previously stated.
Mr. Pool. You refuse to answer on what grounds ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse because of the previously stated reasons.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Griffin, the committee's investigation established
you were born on March 10, 1929, at Caryville, Florida, that you have
a grammar school education, that you served in the Marine Corps from
January 21, 1944, to November 17, 1944, in the United States Army
from February 16, 1946, to May 13, 194Y, in the Army again from
October 22, 1951, to March 20, 1952, all separations honorable, medical
reasons, asthma, and that your specialty while in the Army was that
of heavy weapons and infantryman.
Do you care to offer any comment upon that ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Griffin, Robert Gentry advised members of the
investigative staff that you were the exalted cyclops of Robert E. Lee
Klavern No. 13 and that you also held the position at one time of Grand
Dragon. Were the statements made by Robert Gentry factual ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse on the grounds previously stated, sir.
3684 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. Both Kobert Gentry and William Rosecrans advised
that they overtook a Negro employee of Tamiami Freightways and
that Gentry fired a shotgun at the Negro named Eugene Striggler.
Mr. Gentry testified that he shot to miss.
Did you order either or both Rosecrans and Gentry to take this
action against Eugene Striggler?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer, on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Isn't Eugene Striggler a fellow employee of yours at
Tamiami Freightways?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. What did you hope to gain by having this course of
action take against Mr. Striggler ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Griffin, did you know another employee of Tami-
ami Freightways, Gus Denson ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Griffin, on September 26, 1963, a shotgun was
fired at a Tamiami truck being driven by Gus Denson, which resulted
in Denson being shot in the left side with seven pieces of buckshot
imbedded in the left posterior chest area.
Did you order an attack upon Gus Denson ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Griffin, in March of 1964 you, along with William
Sterling Rosecrans, Robert Pittman Gentry, Jacky Don Harden, and
Donald Eugene Spegal, Wille Eugene Wilson, were indicted follow-
ing the bombing of a Negro residence of Donald Godfrey, a Negro who
had enrolled in the Lackawanna School.
Did you testify in your own defense ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Griffin, I will attempt to summarize testimony
which you gave in that trial, and at the conclusion of which I will ask
you to offer any comment that you care to upon this summary :
That you knew a place on Yellow Bluff Road where numerous ini-
tiation rites of the Klan were held ; that you denied the testimony of
Government witness Jordan that there had been detonations, explo-
sions, at these initiations, and instead exhibited some cherry bombs
which you testified were exploded instead of dynamite.
You denied ever having seen Douglas Holmes. You denied that
you helped Rosecrans break into the Merrill Dynamite Company.
You denied disposing of any dynamite in the Ortega River. You
alleged that your house had been bombed and burned on April 25,
1964.
You admitted being the exalted cyclops of Robert E. Lee Klavem
No. 513 during the month of March 1964.
That you admitted being the exalted cyclops on the date of your
testimony, July 4, 1964; that you admitted being a member of the
Klan for 2 or 3 years; that you know William Rosecrans in the
Klan and that you helped to initiate him ; that you attended a number
of Klan meetinofs with Rosecrans and admitted that Rosecrans was a
a member of Robert E. Lee Klavern 513 ; that you admitted driving
to see L. O. Davis, sheriff, accompanied by Eugene Wilson ; and you
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3685
testified you would not tell about bombings if you were involved be-
cause of your Klan oath ; and that you admitted that rifles and pistols
were fired at initiation meetings as part of the initiations, and that
there were 40 or 50 members present at the initiation, as testified to
by Jordan; and that you testified that Frank Rigdon was not a
member of the Klan at the time the dynamite was stolen; and that
you refused to take the lie detector test on whether or not your house
had been burned ; and that you admitted that your wife Pearl was in
charge of the picket lines at the Lackawanna School; and that you
claimed that the oath administered by the court superseded your
Klan oath.
On that summary of your testimony, Mr. Griffin, do you desire to
make any comments, additions, or corrections ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Griffin, was the testimony which you gave in that
Federal proceeding truthful ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Griffin, according to the New York Times of Mon-
day, May 4, 1964, there is a story, "300 at Klan Meeting Applaud Slurs
on Negroes.-' I will read from the story :
The speaker at the night meeting was J. B. Stoner, an Atlanta lawyer who
has long been connected with Klan activity. A few weeks ago he was nomi-
nated as the Vice-Presidential candidate of the National States Rights party, an-
other fringe group that exists chiefly in Birmingham, Ala.
His running mate for President is John Casper, who served a prison term
for inciting racial trouble in Tennessee.
The speaker praised a fellow Klansman, Bart Griffin, who has been indicted
in the bombing of a Negro home here. A few days ago Mr. Griffin's home was
destroyed by fire reported to have been started by a bomb. But the Duval
County authorities said no bomb was involved and they found no evidence
the fire was set by Negroes.
Mr. Griffin, can you tell the committee how the fire that burned
your home was started ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
(Document marked "Barton Griffin Exhibit No. 1" appears on p.
3686.)
Mr. Appell. Was this a fire that got out of control after there had
been an attempt to establish an alibi ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Griffin, what role did you and other Jacksonville,
Florida, Klansmen play in the violence that erupted in St. Augustine,
Florida, in the summer of 1964 ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Were you arrested and charged with burning a cross
on the property of the City Baking Company ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Were you ever convicted of that arrest ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Were you a deputy or special deputy of Sheriff L. O.
Davis?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Jacksonville is not located in St. John's County, is it?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Other people at that time arrested on warrants signed
by County Judge Charles Mathis, Jr., charging four men with placing
59-222 O— 67— pt. 5 14
3686
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S.
Barton Griffin Exhibit No. 1
[New York Times, May 4, 1964]
THF NEW YORK TIMES, MONDAY, MAY 4, 1964.
300 at Klan Meeting Applaud Slurs on Negroes
By JOHN HERBEBS
Special to Tbt New York Tlmti
JACKSONVILLE, Fla., May
3 — As the last refrain of "The
Old Rugged Cross" died out and
a 25-foot cross burned agziinst
a dark sky, a chubby man in
a gray suit and bow tie
stepped to tlie speaker's stantf.
"People in other parts of the
country like to think of niggers
as human beings because they
have hands and feet," he said.
"So do apes and gorillas have
hands and feet. If a nigger has
a soul I never read about it in
the Bible. The only good nigger
is a dead nigger."
The audience of about 300
men and women — most of them
in robes, hoods and masks —
applauded and began to mur-
mur other anti-Negro senti-
ments as the speaker went on:
"The nigger is a willing tool
of the Communist Jews and is
being used to destroy America.
They want to pump the blood
of Africa into our white veins."
Children at Flay
The faces that could be seen
were hard and humorless. Chil-
dren played in and out of the
robes, apparently unaware of
what was being said.
This was a Saturday night
meeting of an extremist fringe
of the Ku Klux Klan, itself a
fringe group among prosegre-
gation Southerners. Small in
Cfdldrtn Play Amid Hooded
Men and Women at Night
Rally in Jacksonvdle
numljers, these groups — known
as the Klan or by other names
— exist in pockets across the
South. The authorities believe
they inspire bombings and pro-
vide the spark for other racial
violence.
They met In a field just
north of the Jacksonville Mu-
nicipal Airport. Earlier, they
had paraded through downtown
Jacksonville to protest the civil
rights bill. Mayor W Haydon
Bums, a candidate for Gover-
nor in Tuesday's Democratic
primary, had granted the per-
mit for the parade.
To the relief of the police, a
thunderstorm throughout the
parade reduced pedestrian traf
fie, and with it, the possibility
of violence in the city that was
the scene of riots Easter week.
The speaker at the night
meeting was J. B. Stnncr, an
Atlanta lawyer who has long
been connected with Klan ac-
tivity. A few weeks ago he
was nominated as the Vice-
Presidential candidate of the
National States Rights party,
another fringe group that ex-
ists chiefly in Birmingham, Ala.
His running mate for Presi-
dent is John Casper, who served
a prison term for inciting racial
trouble in Tennessee.
The speaker praised a fellow
Klansman, Bart Griffin, who
has been indicted in the bomb-
ing of a Negro home here. A
few days ago Mr. Griffin's home
was destroyed by fire reported
to have been started by » bomb.
But the Duval County authori-
ties said no bomb was Involved
and they had found no evidence
the fire was est by N»£r<>««.
"I suspect that niggers
bombed it with F.B.I, consent
or the F.B.I, bombed it itself."
the speaker said. "Even if they
didn't, they set him up as a
target."
His voice was carried for
blocks by a loudspeaker.
It was difficult to ascertain
which Klan group was in
charge. The parade was
arranged by Woodrow Woods,
who calls himself the Grand
Titan of the United Klans of
Florid^. Some knights who wear
black robes call themselves the
Knights of the Golden Eagle.
One leader identifies himself as
a Kleagle (organizer) from
Augusta, Ga.
From the tone of the meet-
ing, it was obvious that this
was not the Klan element that
asserts it has adopted non-
violence.
a burning cross or causing it to be placed on the property of the City
Baking Company are identified in this article ["Klansmen Facing Ar-
rest," Miami Herald, July 25, 1964] as being J. B. Stoner of Atlanta,
an attorney for the Ku Klux Klan ; Connie Lynch of San Bernardino,
California, a segregationist who says he is a minister ; Paul Cochran,
identified by the State attorney as a KKK leader in Jacksonville ; and
Bill Coleman of St. Augustine, a man the State attorney said was a
KKK leader.
Mr. Griffin, were either or any or all of these people known to you
to be members of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
(Document marked "Barton Griffin Exhibit No. 2" appears on p.
3687.)
Mr. Appem.. Mr. Griffin, the National States Rights Party held a
meeting in Birmingham, Alabama, in November of 1964. Were you
introduced, along with Mr. Gene Wilson, as two Florida white patri-
ots who had been framed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Were you framed by the Federal Bureau of Investi-
gation ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
3687
Barton Griffin Exhibit No. 2
[Miami (Fla.) Herald, _}u\y 25, 1964]
Klansmen
Facing
Arrest
5 Men Sought
'; After Bombing ;
ST. Al'Gl'STINU (API -
The special ttaie pohrr forrr
cnck«<l down on the Ku Klux
Klan Friday Mfirr m (irr txvTtb
wa* t«vsMd into n plu>h motel
trapped in an iniri;ratUini.<(-
anKKationisi onvssfirr
Warrants were sworn luii
again5t (i\-e men rharcint; thrm*
with humini! a rroxs on private
property without permission
One of th«^m also was oharReil
with wearing a hood ih.d tx>\-
ered his face, a violation ot a
slate law .
The wamkMl* were the ftntl
to be awom out a(»ln«t lead-
era of the Klaa movemeat
ataee this elty'a raHal turmoil ;',
started two moaths aco.
] Hours before the warmnis
■were sworn out by the special
police force, ^ gallon juk of
I inflammable liquid wa.s tos.<ied
thi-nugh a window of the trmpo-
irarily integrated Monson MiMm
Lodge dining room, then ignited
jby two Mololov cocktails made
.with soft drink bottles
No one vvas in the restaurant
'when the fire bomb wont off
iat)out 3 a.m. i
!Os t a t e Attorney i>nerRl
{Junes Kynes rushed to the city
land pledged that law and order
I would be enforced under the
I go\'emor"s emergency powers.
I Tke warraata. algaed by ,
{ Cooaty Judge Cliarleti Mathi*
' ir.. speelftcall)' charged four
' oaea with placing a bumlag
I eroas or ranalag It to be i
' placed on the property of City i
I Baking Co. without written
{ pcmlasloa from tke owaer.
I Those named were J, B.
iStoner of Atlanta, an attorney
,for the Ku Klu.x Klan: Connie
(Lynch of San Bernardino,
Calif., a segivgationLst who says
he is a minister; Paul Cochran,!
jidentified by the state attorney!
as a XKK leader in Jackson-'
jville: and Bill Coleman, a St.'
; Augustine man the state attor-
ney said wa!> a KKK leader.
Cochran aUo was charsed
Iwifh wearing a hood. Barton'
Griffin. Stone and Lynch were
charged with actually burning
thecroaa.
Griffln. 35. of Jacksonville,
jwai charged with actually burn-
ing the croas. Griffin recently
iwaa tried and Mcquitted (n a
case stenuning from the bomb-
ling d the home qf a boy who
jhad Integrated a Jarkspnvllle
'school. State Attorney Dan I
Warren saW he was Informett.
Bond on each charge was set
■at $500. 1
Kynea asM Roy LUton, I
I prealdeat of aty BaMag Co., |
, declared he had not given <
i permtaaloa to anyone to hold i
nteetlB^a «■ hla property. i
The fire bomb was the latest i
outbreak of violence since white {
segregationists began picketing!
businesae* that had at first!
agreed to serve NegroM under
the a vil Rights Act.
The containers reeked of
kerosene." said the lodge's man-
ager. James Brock, who hat
been caught in the middle of the
long battle between whitw and
Negroes in the natkMi's oMett
city.
He estimated damage at S3,«
000. moatly from smoke.
Broek. wk*
aeW Into the i
pool In an effort to eloer » af
N«Vt« deasonatratoea, tal».
grated the .<Moaao« Mftar
Lodge after paaaage al Ika
CI\1I Mghis Act.
A few days later, however, he
uid he was forced td stop aerv-
ing Negroes by threats and
demons) rations by white aegte-
gationi.Ms. who never have re-
laxed their efforu to keep the
races apart
• Negro pickeu for civU righU
can hurt your business. " Brock
told a newaman earlier this
week, "but white pickeU oppoa-
ing civil rights can kill it '
he oaq^ pawed
aaeM-aMiMiriiW
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Griffin, other than the incidents that I have talked
to you about, as a leader of a Klan organization, have you ever or-
dered anyone to carry out an act of violence against a human being ?
Mr. Griffin. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions to
ask this witness.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Buchanan ?
Mr. Buchanan. Mr. Chairman, I have just one observation.
Just having returned from Southeast Asia, may I say I am struck
with the similarity of what we are hearing today and what we have
heard on other days in hearings like this, and what I have heard con-
cerning the Viet Cong in South Vietnam, as acts of terrorism and vio-
lence, the use of force and fear, and as to crimes against people.
The chairman earlier expressed some hope that the Klan might,
acting on the information developed by this committee, improve it-
self and lift its sights, and so forth.
3688 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
May I say my hopes for the reform and the revival of the Ku Klux
Klan are approximately equal to my hopes for reforms of the Viet
Cong, Mr. Chairman.
No questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused permanently.
Mr. Appell. Donald Eugene Spegal.
Mr. Pool. Raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Spegal. I do.
Mr. Pool, Before you start interrogating the witness, the Chair
wishes to ask the staff to provide me with the names of the executives
of the companies that these witnesses today work for. I would like to
know who the executives of these companies are.
More specifically, I would like to know which ones are gentiles
and which ones are Jewish.
Go ahead, Mr, Appell.
TESTIMONY OF DONALD EUGENE SPEGAL, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, J. B. STONER
Mr. Appell, State your full name for the record, please.
Mr. Spegal. Donald Eugene Spegal.
Mr. Appell. That is S-p-e-g-a-1 ?
Mr. Spegal. That is correct.
Mr. Appell. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Spegal. lam,
Mr. Appell. Will counsel identify himself for the record?
Mr. Stoner, J. B, Stoner, Marion Building, Augusta, Georgia.
Mr. Appell, Mr, Spegal, are you appearing here today in accord-
ance with a subpena served upon you on January 21, 1966, at "641
Cassat Avenue," Jacksonville, Florida ?
Mr, Spegal, I am,
Mr. Appell. What is located at 641 Cassat Avenue, Jacksonville,
Florida?
Mr. Spegal, I refuse to answer on the ground that to do so might
tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to do so by invoking all of
my rights under the 1st, 4th, 5th. 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th amend-
ments to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Spegal, were you furnished a copy of Chairman
Willis' opening statement of October 1965 and have you read it and
are you familiar with its contents ?
Mr. Spegal. Yes.
Mr, Appell, Mr, Spegal, imder the conditions of the subpena served
upon you and the attachment, which is made a part of the subpena, you
are commanded to bring with you and to produce before the committee
documents described in paragraph one :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to
the orajanization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the United Florida
Ku Klux Klan and aflSliated organizations; namely, Robert E. Lee Klavem #
513, Jacksonville, Florida, in your possession, custody or control, or maintained
by you or available to you as Klokard of the Robert B. Lee Klavern 513, United
Florida Ku Klux Klan.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3689
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 1, Mr. Spegal,
I ask you to produce the documents called for.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to do so on the grounds that to do might tend
to incriminate me, and I also refuse to answer by invoking all of my
rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th,
and 14th amendments to the Constitution of the United States of
America.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have given for your refusal to produce
the documents called for by this part of the subpena do not legally
justify your refusal, and your answer is, therefore, rejected.
I direct and order you to produce the documents called for by the
interrogator in response to paragraph 1 of the subpena in your repre-
sentative capacity stated therein in the subpena.
Mr. Spegal. I refuse on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. Your refusal is rejected.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Spegal, paragraph 2 calls for you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your posses-
sion, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your capacity
as Klokard of the Robert E. Lee Klavern 513, United Florida Ku Klux Klan,
which the "Constitution and Laws" of said organization authorize and require
to be maintained by you and any other oflScer of said organization, the same
being in your possession, custody or control.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 2, I ask you
to produce the documents called for.
Mr. Spegal. I refuse on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have given for your refusal to produce
the documents called for by this part of the subpena do not legally
justify your refusal, and your answer is, therefore, rejected.
I order and direct you to produce the documents called for by the
interrogator in response to paragraph 2 of the subpena in your repre-
sentative capacity stated therein m the subpena.
Mr. Spegal. I refuse on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. Your reasons are rejected.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Spegal, the committee's investigation establishes
that you were born on November 24, 1932, although the exact place
of your birth is not certain. Would you tell the committee where you
were born ?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to do — I refuse to answer on the grounds to do
so might tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to answer by in-
voking my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th,
10th, and 14th amendments of the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Spegal. Are you still employed by Florida Carbonic at 3038
Lennox, in Jacksonville, Florida ?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. In March of 1964, were you, along with William
Sterling Eosecrans, Robert Pittman Gentry, Barton H. Griffin, Jacky
Don Harden, and Willie Eugene Wilson, indicted under two counts
growing out of the bombing of the residence of Donald Godfrey of
Jacksonville, Florida?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the ground previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Spegal, William Rosecrans testified that he came
to the Jacksonville, Florida, area because you were known to his
3690 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE TJ.S.
brother. Were you responsible for William Kosecrans coming to the
Jacksonville, Florida, area ?
Mr. Spegal,. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Was there any discussion between yourself and other
members of the Klan that because of William Kosecrans' violent hatred
of Negroes and his criminal record that you could get him to bomb the
Donald Godfrey residence ?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Did you participate in the stealing of dynamite in
December of 1963 — 13 cases containing 165 sticks each?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Spegal, was the testimony which you gave in the
trial truthful?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Spegal, after the bombing of the Godfrey resi-
dence, Mr. Eosecrans discovered that agents whom he believed to be
FBI were approaching the trailer home in which he lived, and he left
hurriedly and hid overnight in a partially constructed home.
Did you take Kosecrans from the place where he was hiding to the
home of a Herbert Morris in Jacksonville ?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Do you know Holstead Manucy, who was popularly
known as "Hoss" Manucy ?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr, Appell. Do you know his brother, Herbert Manucy ?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Did you attempt to contact "Hoss" Manucy by con-
tacting his brother Herbert for the purpose of hiding William Kose-
crans ?
Mr, Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Spegal, did you make contact with Klansmen in
the St. Augustine area by placing a call to "Hoss" Manucy at his
brother's residence, Herbert Manucy ?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Following this telephone call, did Buddie Cooper come
to Jacksonville from St. Augustine and pick William Kosecrans up
and take him to the St. Augustine area ?
Mr. Spegal, I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Did you know "Hoss" Manucy to be a member of the
Klan?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell, Did you, as well as Bart Griffin and Kobert Gentry,
have deputy sheriff cars issued to you by Sheriff L. O. Davis of St.
John's County, Florida ?
Mr. Spegal, I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr, Appell, Mr. Spegal, did you testify truthfully during your
trial in July and again in November of 1964 ?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr, Spegal, was some of the dynamite used to bomb
the Godfrey residence stored in your garage ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX EXAN EST THE U.S. 3691
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Was the bomb manufactured in your garage, and did
you assist William Rosecrans in the manufacture of the bomb ?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Spegal, I show you five photographs of dynamite,
fuses, a can with dynamite, a footlocker with dynamite, which was
recovered on a highway on March 20, 1964.
Testimony was given at the trial that some of this dynamite had the
fingerprints of William Rosecrans on the sticks of dynamite. How-
ever, William Rosecrans was incarcerated at that time.
After you review these photographs, I ask you if you possess any
knowledge of how that dynamite got on to the highway and thereby
permitted the law enforcement authorities to recover it.
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
(Photographs marked "Donald Spegal Exhibit No. 1" appear on
pp. 3692, 3693.)
Mr. Appell. As a member of the Ku Klux Klan, did you ever en-
gage in any acts of violence in Jacksonville- St. Augustine, Florida,
area?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. During the summer of 1964, did you travel to St.
Augustine, Florida, in order to give assistance as it might be needed
by Klansmen in the St. Augustine area ?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Are you acquainted with how a grenade can be manu-
factured by putting dynamite and nuts and bolts in a can and fusing it ?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Did you ever discuss the use of such a grenade against
any establishment in the Jacksonville, Florida, area ?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. When you visited Rosecrans in jail, did you advise him
that counsel had been retained for him ?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Who arranged for counsel for William Rosecrans?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Do you presently hold an office in a Ku Klux Klan
organization ?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions to
ask this witness.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Buchanan?
Mr. Buchanan. I notice you as well as your counsel are wearing bow
ties with two Confederate flags, one on each side. Is that an insignia
of either your Klan organization or any other organization?
Mr. Spegal. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr, Buchanan. I have no further questions.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused permanently.
Mr. Appell. Willie Eugene Wilson.
Mr. Pool. Raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Wilson. I do.
3692 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Donald Spegal Exhibit No. 1
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Donald Spegal Exhibit No. 1 — Continued
3693
•■?'
I'd
\j V "^i
^'
Photographs of dynamite stolen by Jacksonville Klansmen and discarded following
their arrests.
3694 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIE EUGENE WILSON, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, J. B. STONER
Mr. Appell. State your full name for the record, please.
Mr. Willie Wilson. Willie Eugene Wilson.
Mr. Appell. Do you spell Willie with a "y" or an "ie" ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. W-i-1-l-i-e.
Mr. Appell. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Will counsel identify himself for the record?
Mr. Stoner. J. B. Stoner, attorney at law, Marion Building, Au-
gusta, Georgia.
Mr, Appell. Mr. Wilson, are you appearing here today in accord-
ance with a subpena served upon you at "614 Cassatt Avenue," Jack-
sonville, Florida, on January 20, 1966 ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. Have you been furnished a copy of the chairman's open-
ing statement of October 1965 and do you understand the contents
therein ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. You don't care to examine it any further?
Mr. Willie Wilson. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wilson, the subpena served upon you contains an
attachment, which under the terms of the subpena was made a part of
the subpena, and under the terms of the subpena, in paragraph 1, you
were commanded to bring with you and to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to
the organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the United Florida
Ku Klux Klan and aflSliated organizations ; namely, Robert E. Lee Klavern
# 513, Jacksonville, Florida, in your possession, custody or control, or main-
tained by you or available to you as present or former Exalted Cyclops, Robert
E. Lee Klavem #513, United Florida Ku Klux Klan.
In the representative capacity as set forth in paragraph 1, I ask
you to produce the documents called for,
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to do so on the grounds that to do
so might tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse by invoking all
of my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th,
10th, and 14th amendments of the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have given for your refusal to produce
the documents called for by this part of the subpena do not legally
justify your refusal, and your reasons are rejected.
I order and direct you to produce the documents called for by the
interrogator and pursuant also to the terms of the subpena, paragraph
1, and I order you to produce the documents called for therein, in the
representative capacity stated in the subpena.
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. Your refusal is rejected by the committee.
Mr. Appell. Paragraph 2, Mr. Wilson, reads :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your pos-
session, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your capacity
as present or former Exalted Cyclops, Robert E. Lee Klavem #513, United
Florida Ku Klux Klan, which the "Constitution and Laws" of said organiza-
tion authorize and require to be maintained by you and any other oflScer of
said organization, the same being in your possession, custody or control.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S. 3695
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 2, I ask you
to produce the called-for documents.
Mr. WnxiE Wilson. I refuse to do so on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have given for your refusal to produce
the documents called for by this part of the subpena do not legally
justify your refusal, and your answer is, therefore, rejected.
I order and direct you to produce the documents called for by the
interrogator in response to paragraph 2 of the subpena in your repre-
sentative capacity stated therein in the subpena.
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse on the grounds previous stated.
Mr. Pool. Your reasons are rejected.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wilson, were you born on March 8, 1925, at Brox-
ton, Georgia, and did you serve in the United States Navy from Sep-
tember 3, 1943, to December 11, 1945, and in the U.S. Navy Keserve
from August 17, 1949, to November 26, 1951, with all discharges being
honorable ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do
so might tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse by invoking all of
my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th,
and 16th amendments of the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Appell. Are you part owner of a concern known as S & W Re-
builders, Jacksonville, Florida ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Did you replace Barton H. Griffin as the exalted Cy-
clops of Robert E. Lee Klavern No. 13 ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse on the grounds previous stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wilson, in March of 1964, were you indicted, along
with William Sterling Rosecrans, Robert Pittman Gentry, Barton
H. Griffin, Jacky Don Harden, Donald Eugene Spegal, on a two-count
indictment growing out of the bombing of the residence of Donald
Godfrey?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Pool. I don't blame you for using the fifth amendment there.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wilson, in the course of the trial, did you testify
that you then resided at 4741 Cambridge Road, Jacksonville, and
were then employed by the Hunter Armature Motor Works in Jack-
sonville ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. During your testimony, did you admit that you were
a member of the Klan and that you had held a temporary State
office ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Did you identify Barton Griffin as acting exalted
Cyclops at a meeting you attended on the night of February 15, 1964?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Did you identify Jacky Don Harden as the exalted
Cyclops of Robert E. Lee Klavern No. 508 ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
3696 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. Did you also testify that you accompanied Gene Spegal
and Bart Griffin on a trip to St. John's County jail for the purpose of
visiting Rosecrans, after Rosecrans' arrest ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Did you deny during the course of your trial that you
participated in planning the bombing of the Godfrey residence ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Was your testimony with respect to your knowledge
and participation in the bombing of the Donald Godfrey residence
truthful?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Did you accompany Bart H. Griffin to Mobile, Ala-
bama, in November of 1964 for the purpose of attending a National
States Rights Party meeting ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Were you and Bart Griffin introduced at that meeting
as white Southern patriots who had been framed by the Federal Bu-
reau of Investigation ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. In connection with the Godfrey trial, were you framed
by the Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
Mr. Wlllie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wilson, the Thunderbolt publication of the Na-
tional States Rights Party, issue of June 1965, contains a photograph,
I might say, of yourself and identifies W. E. Wilson as National States
Rights Party director for Duval County, Florida.
Is this information factual ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
(Document marked "Willie Wilson Exhibit No. 1" and retained in
committee files.)
Mr. Appell. The October 1965 issue of the Thunderbolt contains
a story by W. Eugene (Gene) Wilson in which I find that there are
these statements :
In the election campaign, as always, we want every real White person in Duval
County to know that we are against the Jews ; against the negroes ; against the
communists ; and against the F.B.I, because all of those groups are a part of the
Jewish conspiracy against White Christian America. The F.B.I, is controlled by
the Jew-communists, is a political police and is making every effort to destroy the
Constitutional rights of us White people and to give the cannibals special
privilege over us. * * *
The committee would be very much interested, Mr. Wilson, in any
evidence that you might be able to supply it that the FBI is controlled
by the Jewish Communists, is a political force, and of course is making
every effort to destroy the rights of white people.
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
(Document marked "Willie Wilson Exhibit No. 2" follows:)
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN INT THE U.S.
3697
Willie Wilson Exhibit No. 2
[The Thunderbolt, Oct. 1965]
PAGE FOLIR
FLORIDA REPORT
NSRP TO BE ON MAY BALLOT
By W. FjiEene ;Gene) Wilson
Director, i.u:A County, Florida
N.S.R.P.
Office address 643 Cassai Ave.
P. O. Box 6075, Jacksonville, Fla.
32205
Phones 384-3888 and 384-1932
Here In Florida, the old corrupt
parties have placed unconstitu-
tional laws In our Florida Sta-
tutes which make it too difficult
fw aac«h«r pollUcal party to get
on the general election ballot.
Therefore, since we are effec-
tively barred, for the time being,
from being on the general elec-
tion ballot, we are legally entit-
led to participate in the primar-
ies of the old parties. It is ne-
cessary for us to use their elec-
tion machinery. Since both the
Democratic and Republican par-
ties are controlled by the Jews
and are against us White p>eople,
our choice of primaries is based
upon only one thing: we will use
the primary that will best serve
the N.S.R.P.'s purposes, princi-
ples, and platform. Therefore, we
shall use the Democratic primary
in Duval i, ounty In 1966 and func-
tion as a party vdthin a party.
In LXinal C ounty, we shall run
our N.*^ R.i'. candidal es in the
Democratic prlmarv in May on
Che N.S.R.P. platform. We will
make every tifart co el«ct our
candidates to both houses cft the
Florida leglaUnire, bochtheSm-
ate and the house. Also, we hope
to elect a Congressman In this
district. All (rf our candidates
will speak In plain words so that
everybody who Is against the
Jews, negroes and communists
will know to vote for our candi-
dates. Far from being subtle, in
this forthcoming election cam-
paign, we will call a spade a
spade, a dog a dog, a snake a
snake, a Jew a Jew, a canoibal
a cannibal and a communist a
traitor who Is controlled by the
Jews.
Enomtos Homed
We White Christian patriots in
the N.S.R.P. have friends and we
hatve aiemles and we can't win
unless we clearly and pointedly
identify our enemies. As intelli-
gent people, we are against our
enemies. In the election cam-
paign, as always, we want every
real White person In EXival Coun-
ty to know that we are against
the Jews; against the negroes;
■gainst the communists; and
against the F.B.I, because all ct
[hose groins are a part of the
JavlBh conspiracy against White
Cbristlm ABiericB. The P.B.I.
1« coatrolled by the Jew-com-
rainiiMS, Is a p<^tlcal police and
is BMklng every effort todestroy
the C(»stltutional rights of ua
White people and to give the can-
nibals special privilege over us.
They are against us and we are
against them. By letting the good
White people of this county know
where we stand, they will vote for
the candidates of the National
States Rights Party. If we made
the mistake of "beating around
the bush" and evading Issues
during the campaign, we would
be wastlag our time. The White
citizens of this county are
demanding candidates who will
stand up for the White people and
tell the negroes that they are not
welcome in Florida and to move
out.
NSRP on Ballot
We are getting ready for the
May primary now, but will not
select our candidates until the
qualifying deadline draws near.
We will make every effort to de-
feat Congressman Charles E,
Bennett and replace him with a
real White man, a member of the
Natlwial States Rights Party.
Since he is running after the
black vote with all of his
strength, he is not entitled to the
vote (A even one White person.
He has won so much favor with
the negroes that his regular col-
umn Is now carried in a negro
weekly, "The Jacksonville Ad-
vocate." He loves the negroes so
much that he enthusiastically vio-
lates the U. S. Constitution; he
violated it by supporting the so-
called federal voting rights bill
which clearly violated the provi-
sion of the Constitution that gives
the states the right to set the
qualifications of their own voters
and to regulate their own elec-
tions. Congressman Bennett is
the worst enemy that states rights
have had in Florida since leftist
Claude Pepper came along. He
must be defeated in the May pri-
mary with a Congressman who
will represent us White people.
Duval County will have more
seats In the legislature which Is
to be elected in Viay. If you are
willing to help in ibis campaign.
phone me or come tv mv office
to see me.
Activities Listed
If we are to win the May elec-
tions, we must become better or -
gaiUzed and more active. Present
members must goout of their way
to attend their chapter meeting
each week and do their part in
carrying on the program <rf our
National States Rights Party.
Those members at large who are
not participating in chapter ac-
tivity should contact me about
either joining an existing chapter
or helping in the formation of
more chapters.
3698 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE TJ.S.
Willie Wilson Exhibit No. 2 — Continued
NSRP Intends
To Take Power
The National Slates Rights
Party Is one d the few organiza-
tions that Isn't afraid to say where
it stands and to offer a program
to solve the actual problems with
which we are confronted. We offer
a political program and seek to
come to power with only legal
means. With ihepower of govern-
ment, we wUl be safe and our
enemies will be ruined. If we are
active In other fields and neglect
the political, we are squander-
li^ our money and our time. We
Whites have neglected the politi-
cal field (00 long; yet, this Is
where w* will gaift the most for
our White race In proportion to
the rffort that we make. If you are
a loyal White man, belong to
other organizations, but unite
with other real White men In the
N.S.R.P. to win vIct<M^ and power
for us White Christian patriots.
We must win county, state and
national political power so that
we can then purify our country
and drive all of our enemies
out before t|Ky destroy us. We
are. In fact, engaged In a struggle
for survival and any White person
"who doesn't realize urjusi simp-
ly doesn't know the facts.
By a concentration of efforts
on politics, we Whites, If pro-
perly organized, and not frag-
mented by unrealistic schemes
and disrupters, can easily cap-
ture the power that political vic-
tory brings. Any serious program
to save the White race must con-
template making the maximum
use of power both before and af-
ter capture of the political means.
St. Augustine Victory
We Whites must not be divided
in our alleglaac6 to our wonder-
ful White race. As was clearly
demonstrated in St. Augustine
in the Summer of 1964, Protes-
tants and Catholics can and did
work together and deal Martin
LucUer Koon and his black mobs
their most crushing defeat. We
don't care which church you go to
on Sunday, if you are a real
White man <x woman, we want
you in the National States Rights
Party. We have Protestants and
Catholics In the N.S.R.P.; the
tiling that counts with us is that
they are White. We have Ca-
tholics and Klansmen In our Par-
ty. Please tell your Klan friends
and your Catholic friends that
they are welcome in the National
States Rights Parry if they are
loyal to the White Race.
All of us White people have a
common heritage and, as a race,
we Whites will all share the same
destiny; either death by an ad-
mixture of African blood, or life
for our White people by winning
the powers of government through
poUtlcal action and getting rid of
our enemies. In this racial stnig-
%im. we rMi VVhlte people, those
of us who loive our race, are all
in the same boat. TTiat Is true
regardless of whether we were
bom in America, Europe or any-
where else. TTiat Is true regard-
less of the fact that we go to dif-
ferent churches and regardless
of different Ideas that each of us
get from reading the Bible. The
existence of our White race is
threatened throughout the world
which means that we must have a
common racial loyalty if we are
to survive. It is the Jews, the
master race-mixers, who mainly
try to incite White Protestants
and White CAholics against each
other so that fvU Jewish domina-
tion of our cMUry may continue.
The Jews n^ fall In their ef-
forts to divide us Whites.
We don't h«ye anything in com-
mon with any negro, even If his
birth plac« iiaf^ens to be in
America -^ even If he claims to
be a Protestant or a Catholic. We
don't want any part of any negro
and detest the sight as well as the
smell of them. The farther they
are from us the better. I enrtploy
no negroes In my home or In
my business and never will; that
Is the policy of the National
States Rights Party and one of the
reasons why I am dedicated to Che
N.S,R.P.
Great Campaign
Planned
I hope that N.S.R.P. leaders
In other Florida counties will also
run candidates for the legislature
in the May primaries on the
N.S.R.P.'s platform and that they
will take an open stand against
the jews and negroes as we will
do in this county.
As a prelude to the election
campaign, we will hold open air
rallies in the Jacksonville area
as soon as Connie Lynch re-
Wcll said Sir— or Madaai
turns. At these N.S.R.P. rallies,
he will be joined on the platform
by Dr. Edward R. Fields and J. R^
Stoner from Augusta, as well .i^
local speakers. Be sure to notify
your friends and have them also
attend the most dynamic rallies in
the Country. We mean business.
Work with us. We of the National
States Rights Party Intend to win
the 1966 May primary in Duval
County.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3699
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wilson, let me ask you whether or not in October
of 1965 you were a member of the Klan, also.
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Is it the purpose of the Klan to make these charges
without having any facts with which to support them ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I see here that, "We will make every effort to defeat
Congressman Charles E. Bennett and replace him with a real White
man."
What is a "real White man"?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Did you know Connie Lynch and Dr. Edward K. Fields
to be members of the Klan ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Talking about a campaign that the Duval County Na-
tional States Rights Party intended to put on, it is reported in this
article by you :
As a. prelude to the election campaign, we will hold open air rallies in the Jack-
sonville area as soon as Connie Lynch returns. * * *
Connie Lynch, it is my understanding, is a Californian. Why is it
necessary to have Connie Lynch before you conduct campaigns m the
State of Florida ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Appell, is there anything else in that article you were
reading about Congressman Bennett that was derogatory ?
Mr. Appell. They say Mr. Bennett is —
running after the black vote with all of his strength, he is not entitled to
the vote of even one White person. He has won so much favor with the negroes
that his regular column is now carried in a negro weekly, "The Jacksonville
Advocate." He loves the negroes so much that he enthusiastically violates the
U.S. Constitution ; he violated it by supporting the so-called federal voting rights
bill which clearly violated the provision of the Constitution that gives the states
the right to set the qualifications of their own voters and to regulate their own
elections. * * *
Mr. Pool. Do you agree with this statement ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Pool. You are taking the fifth amendment on this statement,
also?
Mr. Willie Wilson. On all the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. For your information, Congressman Bennett is one of
the outstanding Congressmen in Congress, and this is your chance to
explain this and whether you agree with this or not.
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on all the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr, Pool. It is an insult to Congressman Bennett and it is an insult
to the whole membership of the House for this type of propaganda to
be put out. It is not based on any fact. Somebody didn't like him, so
they just cut loose.
3700 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
I am trying to find out if you agree with that.
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on all the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Pool. I hope Congressman Bennett hears about this and tells
the people in Florida that you took the fifth amendment when you had
a chance to back this up or back down.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions to
ask this witness.
Mr. Buchanan. Along the lines you just mentioned, Mr. Chairman,
this Thunderbolt magazme in its November issue describes the mem-
bers of this subcommittee as pro-Communist, anti-Constitution, and
dangerous enemies to America.
I just wanted you to know that they are bipartisan in their slander.
Mr. Wilson, concerning the remarks in this Thunderbolt issue, at-
tributed to you, I believe, this article concerning the FBI, are you
aware, sir, that this organization under the brilliant leadership of
J. Edgar Hoover has distinguished itself in fighting both crime and
communism in this country ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on all the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Buchanan. Is it not true that all of the charges you make
against the Federal Bureau of Investigation are totally unfounded ?
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Pool. This is the forum for the Ku Klux Klan to state its case,
and you refuse to testify. This is your chance to come before this com-
mittee to say what is true, and you refuse to do it, by taking the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Willie Wilson. I refuse to answer on all the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Pool. Do you have any further questions ?
Mr. Appell. No further questions.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused permanently.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Appell. Buddie S. Cooper.
Mr. Pool. Raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. CoopEK. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF BUDDIE SAMMY COOPER, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, J. B. STONER
Mr. Appell. State your full name for the record, Mr. Cooper.
Mr. Cooper. Buddie S. Cooper.
Mr. Appell. The "S" stands for?
Mr. Cooper. Sammy.
Mr. Appell. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Cooper. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Will counsel identify himself for the record ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S. 3701
Mr. Stoner. J. B. Stoner, Marion Building, Augusta, Georgia.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Cooper, are you appearing here today in accord-
ance with a subpena served upon you at St. Augustine, Florida, on
JanuaiT 25, 1966?
Mr. Cooper. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. Are you familiar with the contents of the chairman's
opening statement of October 1965 .and understand the contents
therein ?
Mr. Cooper. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appeix. Mr. Cooper, the subpena served upon you contained
an attachment, and under the terms of the subpena you were com-
manded to bring with you and produce documents set forth in the
attachment. Paragraph 1 reads :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to
the organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the United Florida
Ku Klux Klan and aflSliated organizations; namely, St. Augustine Klavem
# 519, St. Augustine, Florida, in your possession, custody or control, or main-
tained by you or available to you as present or former Exalted Cyclops, St.
Augustine Klavern # 519, United Florida Ku Klux Klan.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 1, I ask you
to produce the documents called for.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Cooper. I refuse on the grounds to do so might tend to incrim-
inate me, and I also refuse by invoking all of my rights and privileges
under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th amendments of
the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have given for your refusal to produce
the documents called for by this part of the subpena do not legally
justify your refusal, and your answer is, therefore, rejected.
I order and direct you to produce the documents called for by the
interrogator in response to paragraph 1 of the subpena in your repre-
sentative capacity stated therem in the subpena.
Mr. Cooper. Sir, I refuse on the same grounds that I used before.
Mr. Pool. Your reasons are rejected.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Cooper, paragraph 2 calls for you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your pos-
session, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your
capacity as present or former Exalted Cyclops, St. Augustine Klavern #519,
United Florida Ku Klux Klan, which the "Constitution and L^aws" of said orga-
nization authorize and require to be maintained by you and any other officer of
said organization, the same being in yovir possession, custody or control.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 2, 1 ask you to
produce the documents called for.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Cooper. I refuse on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have given for your refusal to produce
the documents called for "by this part of the subpena do not legally
justify your refusal, and your answer is, therefore, rejected.
I order and direct you to produce the documents called for by the
interrogator in response to paragraph 2 of the subpena in your repre-
sentative capacity stated therein in the subpena.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Cooper. I refuse on the grounds previously stated.
69-222 O— 67— pt. 5—^5
3702 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. Your reasons are rejected.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Cooper, were you born on October 2, 1937, at Bed-
ford, Virginia ?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so may
tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to answer by invoking all
of my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th,
and 14th amendments of the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Appell. Do you reside at 108 Surfside Avenue, Vilano Beach,
St. Augustine, Florida ?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Are you currently employed as a bartender at Surf
Side Casino and as a surveyor for the Pacetti company at 58 Hypolita
Street, St. Augustine, Florida ?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse on the ground previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Your education is that of a ninth grade ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Cooper, do you know Donald L. Booth ?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Do you and Donald L. Booth maintain a checking
account at The St. Augustine National Bank, St. Augustine, Florida,
and is this an account in which the St. Augustine Klavem 519 funds
are kept ?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. I show you a copy of a bank signature card containing
signatures of Donald L. Booth and Buddie S. Cooper. I ask you if the
signature of Buddie S. Cooper is your signature.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
(Document marked "Buddie Cooper Exhibit No. 1" follows:)
Buddie Cooper Exhibit No. 1
'.^':.L*Lij'>i!i^'.M^i V^^
900?!! ft COOPpR
iC Nf Aii'.'>-iM"
JSOjo'AS'Mt Vl^STiftNf, HA10W-X BA-'tlc Of ST. AUoi'S' ;■-.
** ' foil ttw Pli*^\i^lic«Kilr' tSftM\ fiff IWpJflt i>r. J u-»oSt to *he .<xn> a.iy ana oil «!••
r.~j n -xfc* :n •*».■ nutTM* o' *:n«^ Of bo*".. o> !'".» (..I.lr. ■.^■. «H, on<i f(, .: -, .np'.k Of roc«ipT of
*iHi»< Of li« »w(v,..ot flialJ oi.>ci».'^e v-iu ion :i.»b.l>ry. tocr. o> m« ur'.'4';isnj-.j j- jciits iho o'ber as ottor-
'\*f- ■ ' fccf vi»*i i>ower tc 'fepojil i'l tt»e o!:iOvo-«lyl»<i <j«coi' \undi of iho ^■■-*: c. iKu, oi 'h* ifr-^art^gpect,
i • >• I'l.^txte, Hi .».' jor^' < ly c.i<»cV, d'ofk J* <nlli»r ir.3if.'m«nt po/able ci '»« cl'iv O' \>c^h o' H<*
.Manti end eai.» 'e-i w .'itrr^ it'r/ in aammi—i K> or upc.i !i)« dtrm^ian oi eithar vt l+w
, fount ^aV. i-» ^feu «e a i.t»orQ» 0/ t'.Ot. if i'. is cimwci wi'hin "j pu'iud af ihren nion'hj
', onrf >iid> t!<»i-> t.Q'omcs' is If'ti thtm $.5(X100; oiio c^..."ja o* I • >0 i--'- jrtior, »ho^W
. .Jcrir,r'> tii»3 : •- p«no<l 5! Cmw y«ar :, i' -i.-e is l.-'U*?
• iholi be w » - sjOvernSti^ h^rdiwy ' i •■•^w cHect-
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3703
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that Duval Sportsmen Lodge,
Jacksonville, Florida, is an account to which Klaverns of the United
Florida Klans pay their per capita assessement.
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. I hand you a copy of a notice from the Florida Dealers
and Growers Bank dated September 3, 1965, to the Duval Sportsmen
Lodge, advising them that a check drawn against the account of
Booth and Cooper in the amount of $18 was debited to their account
because Booth and Cooper account was insufficient funds.
I ask you if that check in the amount of $18 was a payment to the
United Florida Klans made payable to the Duval Sportsmen Lodge.
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
(Document marked "Buddie Cooper Exhibit No. 2" follows:)
Buddie Cooper Exhibit No. 2
R.OIUDA DEALERS AND GROWERS lANK
WC CHARGE your occoiyntan4*ii«»un» hAWIfij vmptid Joeksonvill*, Hc^-'..... )M**f
NKAtON
DRAWN OM.
oiiAWM av
AMOUNT •
X
63-5J
•OCfft k 0OB|^..
18.00
". ' ■ •
■ "• ••• '.' •■
TOTAL
ia«oe
Kir TO lEASONt *Ot xrWtN
I. N^ Mdc^at FvMti li tn— MlnM«
] fcJlrnmiiH Mliilna It. P<irn«M «»»>«<
I. AecMiri Cltntd IT t.«M>»ia N>< Arikwb«4
4. Auaiwrt ttttttinmi II S:a«««r« Not C*mct
I. ••M AkM4 It WlhWM M Mo*
4. %*m*mtm AHsraHMi M. bviN^ Acc«M# Mat
t. •mtmH* AiimhI S<iI>I«c4 M Owck
1 BmWIm C««»»nnMm II U>c*H«c«W CMi*
« Ha AacaMt n. tl«u«m Mulat
m. Wa Na* a Wa «o «■« Kfjiir <» |«>l
m! |ljpi»in tfaai iM>) airaa
vtkaaa aa Ma
■• •»io>"0 2> wf*^? /ooooooiaoo/
Mr. Appell. Is the Surf Side Casino leased by the St. Augustine
Klan and used as its meeting place ?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. I hand you some checks payable to The St. Augustine
National Bank in the amount of $75, two signed by Booth and one by
Cooper.
I put it to you as a fact that these checks are payable to the bank
as the conditions of a lease whereby the Surf Side Casino is used by
the Klan.
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
(Checks marked "Buddie Cooper Exhibit No. 3." One of said checks
appears on p. 3704; others retained in committee files.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Cooper, what is the relationship between the Klan
and the hunting club which is allegedly operated by "Hoss" Manucy ?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Are you familiar with an organization known as
Manucy's Raiders ?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Did you hold a title of lieutenant or captain within this
organization ?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Do you know William Rosecrans ?
37€4 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Buddie Cooper Exhibit No. 3
■•\S( Aii*>iistinf, noHda JMK 1 ^ ''^ ''^ ^'
le St.Augustiae National litmk
' ' ^ ■'"• ^ Yli, 81. teiMttM %i^'mA latl, It »«;5srt«B, Hi,
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. In response to a request of Eugene Spegal, did you
travel to Jacksonville, Florida, to pick up William Rosecrans to bring
him to St. Augustine, Florida, and obtain for him employment at
Nick's Boat Yard, with him using the alias of James Lewis ?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Did you and other Klansmen ever use the facilities of
Sheriff L. O. Davis for conducting Klan meetings ?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Wliat knowledge do you possess of the number of
Klansmen who were deputized as special deputies by Sheriff L. O.
Davis?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. In an interview which "Hoss" Manucy gave to a re-
porter which appeared in the June 4, 1964, issue of the Miami Herald.
Mr. Manucy talked about the two-way radios maintained by members
of his organization, which he described to be the Ancient City Hunting
Club.
What know^ledge do you possess of the use of the two-way radios for
purposes of carrying out acts of violence in the summer of 1964 in St.
Augustine, Florida ?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. What knowledge do you posess of the participation of
the Klan in picketing against restaurants and other business establish-
ments in St. Augustine which, in compliance with the Federal law,
integrated their establishments ?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. What participation did you engage in with respect to
violence as a member of a Klan organization ?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answ^er on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Manucy testified that members of his organizations
do not carry guns on their persons, but in their cars. What knowledge
do you possess of the arming of members of the Ancient City Hunting
Club?
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Molotov cocktails were thrown into the office of the
Munson Motor Lodge in St. Augustine. What knowledge do you
possess of that, Mr. Cooper ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3705
Mr. Cooper. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused permanently.
Mr. Appell. Kenneth Overstreet.
Mr. Pool. Raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Overstreet. I do.
TESTIMONY OF KENNETH MARVIN OVERSTREET, ACCOMPANIED
BY COUNSEL, J. B. STONER
Mr. Appell. Mr. Overstreet, would you state your full name for the
record, please ?
Mr. Overstreet. Kenneth Marvin Overstreet.
Mr. Appell. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Overstreet. Yes; I am.
Mr. Appell. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ?
Mr. Stoner. J. B. Stoner, attorney at law, Marion Building,
Augusta, Georgia.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Overstreet, are you appearing here today in ac-
cordance with a subpena served upon you in Jacksonville, Florida, on
January 24, 1966?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Overstreet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. Have you been furnished a copy of the chairman's open-
ing statement of October 1965 ?
Mr. Overstreet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. Are you familiar with the contents therein ?
Mr. Overstreet. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Overstreet, the subpena served upon you contained
an attachment, which is made a part of the subpena, and under the
conditions of the subpena you were commanded to bring with you
documents set fortli in two paragraphs of that subpena. Paragraph
1 reads :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the United Florida
Ku Klux Klan and affiliated organizations; namely, the Robert E. Lee Klavem
# 506, Jacksonville, Florida, in your possession, custody or control, or main-
tained by you or available to you as present or former Exalted Cyclops. Robert
E. Lee Klavem # 506 of the United Florida Ku Klux Klan.
In the representative capacity set forth in that document, Mr. Over-
street, I ask you to produce the documents called for.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. 0\t:rstreet. I refuse on the grounds that to do so might tend
to incriminate me, and I also refuse by invoking all of my rights and
privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th amend-
ments to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have given for your refusal to produce
the documents called for by part 1 of the subpena do not legally jus-
tify your refusal, and your reasons are rejected.
3706 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE TJ.S.
I order and direct you to produce the documents called for by the
interrogator in response to paragraph 1 of the subpena in your repre-
sentative capacity stated therein in the subpena.
Mr. OvERSTREET. I ref use on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. Your reasons are rejected.
Mr. Appell. Paragraph 2, Mr. Overstreet, calls for you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your pos-
session, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your capac-
ity as present or former Exalted Cyclops, Robert E. Lee Klavem # 506 of the
United Florida Ku Klux Klan, which the "Constitution and Laws" of said or-
ganization authorize and require to be maintained by you and any other officer of
said organization, the same being in your possession, custody or control.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 2, I ask you
to produce the documents called for.
Mr. Overstreet. I refuse on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have stated for your refusal to produce
the documents called for in paragraph 2 of the subpena do not legally
justify your refusal, and your answer is, therefore, rejected.
I order and direct you to produce the documents called for by the
interrogator in response to paragraph 2 of the subpena in your repre-
sentative capacity stated therein in the subpena.
Mr. Overstreet. I refuse on the previously stated grounds.
Mr. Pool. Your answer is rejected.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Overstreet, I put it to you as a fact that you were
born on August 27, 1923, at Jacksonville, Florida.
Mr. Overstreet. I refuse to answer on the grounds to do so might
tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to answer by invoking all of
my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th., 8th, 9th, 10th,
and 14th amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that you reside at 3211 Phyllis
Avenue, Jacksonville, and are employed as a shipping and receiving
clerk at the Patterson Cold Storage Company, 2481 Dennis Street,
Jacksonville.
Mr. Overstreet. I refuse on the previously stated grounds.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that you have a seventh-grade
education and that you were honorably discharged from the United
States Marine Corps with the rank of corporal after serving from
September 30, 1942, to November 3, 1945.
Mr. Overstreet. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that you joined the Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan in 1963 and that you became in 1965 the exalted
Cyclops of Robert E. Lee Klavem No. 506.
Mr. Overstreet. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Overstreet, do you know a Bart H. Griffin ?
Mr. Overstreet. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Did Mr. Griffin lend to you a flare gun which you
attempted to fire into the residence of Donald Godfrey in Jackson-
ville, Florida ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3707
Mr. OvERSTREET. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Does Klavem No. 506 in Jacksonville hold its meet-
ings at 532 Ricker Road, Jacksonville, at 1448 Wolf Street in Jack-
sonville, and at 974 Crest Drive East, Jacksonville, Florida?
Mr. Overstreet. I refuse to answer on the previously stated
grounds.
Mr. Appell. Do you know Malcolm Lee Sellers ?
Mr. Overstreet. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. In March of 1965 did you have a discussion with Sell-
ers relative to the need to kill Martin Luther King ?
Mr. Overstreet. I refuse on grounds previously stated to answer.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions to ask
this witness.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused permanently.
The committee will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock Wednesday
morning.
(Whereupon, at 5:20 p.m., Monday, February 21, 1966, the sub-
committee recessed, to reconvene at 10 a.m., Wednesday, February 23,
1966.)
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN ORGANIZATIONS IN
THE UNITED STATES
Part 5
WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 1966
United States House of Eepresentatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington, D.C.
public hearings
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities, as
reconstituted for the February 23 hearings, met, pursuant to recess,
at 10 a.m., in the Caucus Room, Cannon House Office Building, Wash-
ington, D.C, Hon. Charles L. Weltner, presiding.
(Subcommittee members: Representatives Joe R. Pool, of Texas,
chairman; Charles L. Weltner, of Georgia; and John H. Buchanan,
Jr., of Alabama.)
Subcommittee members present: Representatives Weltner and
Buchanan.
Staff members present : Francis J. McNamara, director; William
Hitz, general counsel ; Alfred M. Nittle, counsel ; Donald T. Appell,
chief investigator; and Philip R. Manuel, investigator.
Mr. Weltner. The subcommittee will be in order.
The designation of the chairman of the committee constituting as
a subcommittee to sit for today Messrs. Pool, Buchanan, and myself
will be entered in the record at this point:
February 17, 1966.
To I Mr. Francis J. McNamara,
Director, Committee on Un-American Activities.
Pursuant to the provisions of the law and the Rules of this Committee, I
hereby appoint a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
consisting of Honorable Joe R. Pool as Chairman, and Honorable Charles L.
Weltner and Honorable John Buchanan as associate members, to conduct hear-
ings in Washington, D.C. on Wednesday, February 23, 1966, as contemplated by
the resolution adopted by the Committee on the 30th day of March, 1965, au-
thorizing hearings concerning the activities of the various Ku Klux Klan organi-
zations in the United States.
Please make this action a matter of Committee record.
If any member indicates his inability to serve, please notify me.
Given under my hand this 17th day of February, 1966.
/s/ Edwin E. Willis
Edwin E. Willis
Chairman, Committee on Un-American Activities.
Call your first witness, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. Noel Woodrow Wood.
Mr. Weltner. Raise your right hand, please.
3709
3710 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this
hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. Wood. I do.
Mr. Weltner. Proceed, Mr. Appell.
TESTIMONY OF NOEL WOODROW WOOD, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, J. B. STONER
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wood, would you state your full name for the
record, please?
Mr. Weltner. The rules of the House prohibit taking photographs
during the course of testimony.
Mr. Appell. Would you state your name for the record, please?
Mr. Wood. Noel Woodrow Wood.
Mr. Weltner. Are you represented by counsel, Mr. Wood?
Mr. Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr. Weltner. Will counsel give his name, please?
Mr. Stoner. J. B. Stoner, attorney at law, Marion Building,
Augusta, Georgia.
I was told I didn't have to stand up the other day.
Mr. Weltner. This is just to show that your client is represented
by counsel.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wood, are you appearing here today in accord-
ance with a subpena served upon you at 8206 Phillips Highway, Jack-
sonville, Florida, on February 14, 1966 ?
Mr. Wood. I am.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wood, under the terms of the subpena, an attach-
ment, which is made a part of the subpena, you were directed to
bring with you and to produce documents described in two paragraphs.
Paragraph 1 reads :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to
the organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the United Florida
Ku Klux Klan in your possession, custody or control, or maintained by you or
available to you as present or former Grand Titan, United Florida Ku Klux
Klan,
Before asking you to produce those documents called for in para-
graph 1, Mr. Wood, I ask you if you have received a copy of the
chairman's opening statement of October 1965 and whether you are
familiar with the contents thereof.
Mr. Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. I will now ask you, Mr. Wood, in the representative
capacity set forth in paragraph 1, to produce the documents called
for.
Mr. Wood. I refuse on the grounds that to do so might tend to in-
criminate me and I also refuse by invoking all of my rights and
privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th amend-
ments to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wood, I can hear you, but the committee members
probably cannot.
Would you pull the microphone closer to you and talk into it ; we
will appreciate it.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3711
Mr. Weltner. The witness' response to the request has been heard,
and it is not necessary to repeat it.
Mr. Wood, the committee does not accept your reasons for refusing
to produce those documents and, accordingly, the committee directs
you to produce them at this point.
Mr. Wood. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. You have at this point, Mr. Wood, an opportunity
to present to the committee a reason why you would be unable to
comply with those commands, such as the unavailability of the docu-
ments to you, if it be the case, or you do not have possession or custody
or control of them ; you have that opportunity at this point to so state.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Wood. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wood, paragraph 2 calls upon you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your posses-
sion, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your capacity
as present or former Grand Titan, United Florida Ku Klux Klan, which the
"Constitution and Laws" of said organization authorize and require to be
maintained by you and any other oflBcer of said organization, the same being in
your possession, custody or control.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 2, Mr. Wood,
I ask you to produce the documents called for.
Mr. Wood. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. The committee directs you to produce the documents
called for in paragraph 2 at this time.
Mr. Wood. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wood, when and where were you born ?
(Witness confers with counsel. )
Mr. Wood. I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so might
tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to answer by invoking all of
my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, lOth, and
14th amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wood, I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to
affirm or deny the fact, that you were born on August 24, 1935, at
Macclenny, Florida, and that you are presently employed by General
Motors at Jacksonville, Florida, and that you reside at 9616 Melvina
Road, Box 911 D, at Mandarin, Florida.
Mr. Wood. I refuse to answer on all of the gromids previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that you served in the United
States Navy from August 1952 to August 1956, that you were hon-
orably released and transferred to the United States Navy Reserve,
from which you were discharged in August of 1960.
Mr. Wood. I refused to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wood, are you currently a member of a Ku Klux
Klan organization?
Mr, Wood. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wood, I put it to you as a fact that you attended
meetings of the Nassau Klavern No. 10, United Florida Ku Klux Klan
at Yule, Florida, and in 1964 you were apppointed the grand titan for
Province No. 5, and I ask you to affirm or deny that, sir.
3712 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Wood. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wood, as a member of the United Florida Klan,
were you active in agitational activities carried out by the Klan in St.
Augustine, Florida?
Mr. Weltner. Let's define the term "agitational activities." Re-
phrase the question.
Mr. Appell. As a member of the Klan, did you engage in any acts
of intimidation, threats, or violence in St. Augustine, Florida?
Mr. Wood. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wood, the Nem York Times of May 4, 1964, in a
story datelined Jacksonville, Florida, refers to a rally sponsored by
the Klan and to a street walk or parade. The article reads :
It wa« diflScult to ascertain which Klan group was in charge. The parade was
arranged by Woodrow "Woods, [sic] who calls himself the Grand Titan of the
United Klans of Florida. Some knights who wear black robes call themselves
the Knights of the Golden Eagle. One leader identifies himself as a Kleagle
(organizer) from Augusta, Ga.
Are you the Woodrow Wood identified in this story ?
Mr. Wood. I refused to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
(Document previously marked "Barton Griffin Exhibit No. 1."
See p. 3686.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wood, are you familiar with a John Edward Land
of Calhoun, Florida?
Mr. Wood. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Wood, investigation by the committee established
that on September 16, 1963, a group of Klansmen called at the Land
residence and when Land answered the door was advised that a man
seated in an automobile desired to talk to him.
As Land left his residence headed for the car, he was hit on the back
of the head and forced into the car. In the automobile he was hit with
a pistol and ordered to lie down where he could not be observed.
He was driven some 10 miles from his home to a point on State
Highway 18 where he was further beaten, warned, and abandoned.
He was treated at the Humphreys Memorial Hospital at Fernandina
Beach, Florida, for the injuries sustained, and cuts sustained by the
beating required five or six stitches.
Do you have any knowledge of this, Mr. Wood ?
Mr. Wood. I refuse to answer on the groimds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Were you one of those involved in taking this 62-year-
old white man from his residence and beating him as I have described ?
Mr. Wood. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Was Glen Knouse and Virgie Glen and James Edward
Higginbotham also involved in that, sir ?
Mr. Wood. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that you were one of those in-
volved and I ask you to affirm or deny that.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3713
Mr. Wood. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. It is the committee's understanding that the reason
this beating was inflicted upon Mr. Land was that he was suspected
of having an affair with a Negro woman, and he was 62 years of age.
Is this factual, Mr. Wood ?
Mr. Wood. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. On March 7, 1965, did you attend a meeting of State
officers and exalted cyclops of the United Florida Klan, United Florida
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, at Samsula, Florida?
Mr. Wood. I refuse to answer on all of the' grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. At this meeting, did you resign the office of grand titan
of Province No. 5 ?
Mr. Wood. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Were you replaced by C. L. Wilson of Jacksonville,
Florida?
Mr. Wood. I refuse to answer on all of the gi'ounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Are you today a member of any Ku Klux Klan orga-
nization?
Mr. Wood. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions to
ask of this witness.
Mr. AVeltner. Do you have any questions of this witness, Mr.
Buchanan ?
Mr. Buchanan. How many men were allegedly involved in this
flogging, Mr. Appell ?
Mr. Appell. Our investigation has identified four.
Mr. Buchanan. It must take great courage for four men to beat up
one 62-year-old man.
I am interested, also, in the fact that this group apparently assumed
the role of judge and jury and prosecutor in administering their own
peculiar brand of justice.
I wonder if the witness considers this kind of activity in harmony
with our Constitution and with the laws of our society.
Mr. Wood. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Buchanan. No further questions.
Mr. Weltner. The witness has at this point an opportunity to pre-
sent any facts that may be relevant. It is not a question directed to
him, but it is an opportunity if he desires to take advantage of it.
There being no response, the witness will be excused.
Call your next witness, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. Robert. Sylvester Arant.
Mr. Stoner. Is he permanently excused?
Mr. Weltner. Yes, sir.
Raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in tliis hearing
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. Arant. I do.
3714 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT SYLVESTER ARANT, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, J. B. STONER
Mr. Appell. State your full name for the record.
Mr. Arant. Robert Sylvester Arant.
Mr. Weltner. Are you represented by counsel, Mr. Arant?
Mr. Arant. Yes.
Mr. Weltner. Will counsel state his name, please ?
Mr. Stoner. J. B. Stoner, attorney at law, Marion Building, Au-
gusta, Georgia.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Arant, did you receive a copy of the chairman's
opening statement of October 1965 and are you familiar with its
contents ?
Mr. Arant. I am.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Arant, are you here today in accordance with a
subpena served upon you at Route 3, Box 321, Palatka, Florida, on
February 15, 1966?
Mr. Arant. Yes.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Arant, the subpena served upon you contained an
attachment and under the terms of the subpena you were directed
to bring with you and to produce documents set forth in two para-
graphs of the attachment.
Paragraph 1 reads :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the United Florida
Ku Klux Klan and affiliated organizations ; namely, the Palatka Klavern, United
Florida Ku Klux Klan, in your possession, custody or control, or maintained by
you or available to you as present or former Exalted Cyclops, Palatka Klavern,
United Florida Ku Klux Klan.
In the representative capactity set forth in paragraph 1 of the sub-
pena, I ask you to produce the documents called for.
Mr. Arant. I refuse on the grounds that to do so might tend to
incriminate me, and I also refuse by invoking all of my rights and
privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and the 14th
amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Arant, the committee does not accept your re-
fusal to produce the documents called for in paragraph 1, and conse-
quently at this time you are ordered and directed to produce them.
Mr. Arant. I refuse to do so on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. You have at this point an opportunity to present to
the commttee any reason why you would be unable to produce such
documents, such as lack of custody or possession.
Mr. Arant. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Arant, paragraph 2 calls for you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your pos-
session, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your capacity
as present or former Exalted Cyclops, Palatka Klavern, United Florida Ku Klux
Klan, which the "Constitution and Laws" of said organization authorize and
require to be maintained by you and any other officer of said organization, the
same being in your possession, custody or control.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 2, I ask you
to produce the documents called for.
Mr. Arant. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3715
Mr. Weltner. The committee directs you to produce the documents
called for.
Mr. Arant, I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Arant, when and where were you born ?
Mr. Arant. I was born in Palatka — I refuse to answer on all of the
grounds previously stated.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Arant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so might
tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to answer by invoking all of
my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, and 14th
amendents to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Arant, I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to af-
firm or deny the fact, that you were born at Palatka, Florida, on
December 3, 1932 ; that you reside at the place where you were served
your subpena. Route 3, Box 321, Palatka, Florida ; and that you are
employed by the Hudson Pulp and Paper Corporation, Palatka,
Florida.
Mr. Arant. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Arant, the Tampa Tribune of September 20, 1963,
contains a story about four St. Augustine Negroes who were beaten at
a Klan rally held in St. Augustine, Florida.
Do you possess any knowledge with respect to the beating of four
Negroes at a Klan rally in St. Augustine, Florida, in September of
1963?
Mr, Arant. I refuse to answer on all the grounds previously stated.
(Document marked "Robert Arant Exhibit No. 1" follows:)*
Robert Arant Exhibit No. 1
[Tampa (Fla.) Tribune, Sept. 20, 1963]
4 St. Augustine Negroes Beaten on Arrival at Klan Rally ; 4 Whites
Charged
ST. AUGUSTINE (AP)— Four white men were charged yesterday with assault
and battery in the beating of four Negroes who drove into a Ku Klux Klan rally.
A Florida official of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored
People appealed to U.S. Atty. Gen. Robert Kennedy and Gov. Farris Bryant for
investigations.
Bryant, in Jacksonville to attend a State Road Board meeting, said all he knew
about the case was that four men had been arrested and "it appears the sheriff is
on top of it."
The attack occurred near a highway two miles south of the city. The Klan had
advertised the meetings Wednesday night and last night and distributed leaf-
lets inviting white persons to attend.
Sheriff L. O. Davis of St. Johns County said he sped to the rally site after re-
ceiving a call reporting trouble. Four hooded and robed Klansmen still at the
scene were taken in custody, he said.
The car driven by the Negroes was wrecked. They were taken to a St. Augus-
tine hospital in patrol cars. Three were admitted for treatment of cuts and
bruises.
The fourth was treated for a head wound and released.
"Why they went to a Klan rally I just don't know," Davis said. "They never
did tell me."
The Negroes included Dr. R. B. Hayling, 33, a dentist who has been advisor
to the youth council of the St. Augustine NAACP branch.
Others were Clyde Jenkins, 35 ; James Hauser, 43, and James Sanders Jackson,
18, all of St. Augustine.
3716 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
The four men arrested by the sheriff were from Jacksonville. They posted
$100 bonds and were released. A hearing was set for Sept. 27.
The accused men were : Clarence O. Wilson, 29 ; Harmon Davis, 49 ; Lawrence
A. Bessout, 30, and Dewitt W. Springfield, 46.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Arant, do you know Connie Lynch ?
Mr. Arant. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Do you know Don Cothran ?
Mr. Arant. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Do you know" Gene Fallaw ?
Mr. Arant. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that Lynch, Cothran, and
Fallow were the principal speakers at the rally at which these Negroes
were beaten on September 18, 1963.
Mr. Arant. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Did you hear Connie Lynch tell the people assembled
at the rally that he wanted them to sign up, but that they should not
sign up if they were weak or coward because this Klan was no peace-
ful organization ?
Mr. Arant. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Arant, did you, Joseph H. Bedford^ Albert T.
Massey, Conrad Lynch, and Gene Fallaw actually participate in the
beating of those four Negroes ?
Mr. Arant. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Arant, will you identify to the committee the offi-
cers of Palatka-Putnam Klavern which met in Palatka, Florida?
Mr. Arant. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Were Delbert Giddings and Foy Smith leaders of
this Klavern along with yourself ?
Mr. Arant. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions to
ask this witness.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Arant, this is not a question to you, but this is
an opportunity afforded to you at this time to make any statement
you care to make.
Mr. Arant. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Buchanan ?
Mr. Buchanan. I have no questions.
Mr. Weltner. The witness is excused, and you may call your next
witness, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. John Lee Stoudenmire.
Mr. Weltner. Raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this
hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I do.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3717
TESTIMONY OF JOHN LEE STOUDENMIRE, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, J. B. STONER
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, please state your full name for the
record.
Mr. Stoudenmire. John Lee Stoudenmire.
Mr. Appell. You may stay seated. Is that spelled properly in the
subpena : S-t-o-u-d-e-n-m-i-r-e?
Mr. Stoudenmire. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Stoudenmire. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Will counsel identify himself for the record?
Mr. Stoner. J. B. Stoner, attorney at law, Marion Building, Au-
gusta, Georgia.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, did you receive a copy of the chair-
man's opening statement of October 1965 and are you familar with its
contents ?
Mr. Stoudenmire. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, are you appearing here today in
accordance with a subpena served upon you on January 24, 1966, at
Jacksonville, Florida ?
Mr. Stoudenmire. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, under the terms of that subpena and
an attachment that was made a part of that subpena, you were directed
to produce documents set forth in paragraphs contained in the attach-
ment.
Paragraph 1 reads : •
AH books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the United Florida
Ku Klux Klan and affiliated organizations namely, Klavern 502, Jacksonville,
Florida, aka Duval Fellowship Club and Paul Revere Historical Society in your
possession, custody or control, or maintained by you or available to you as Grand
Klabee (Treasurer) United Florida Ku Klux Klan and Klabee (Treasurer) Jack-
sonville Klavern 502, United Florida Ku Klux Klan, also known as Duval Fellow-
ship Club and Paul Revere Historical Society.
In the representative capacity set forth in the subpena, Mr. Stouden-
mire, I ask you to produce the documents called for in paragraph 1.
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse on the grounds that to do so might tend
to incriminate me, and I also refuse by invoking all of my rights and
privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and i4th amend-
ments to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Stoudenmire, the committee does not accept your
grounds for refusal to produce the documents called for in paragraph
1, and accordingly you are directed and ordered to produce those
documents at this time.
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. You have at this time an opportunity to present to
the committee any reasons which you might have which might sub-
stantiate a failure to produce the documents, either you lack possession
of them or you do not have custody of them.
That is an opportunity afforded you at this time.
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. Proceed, Mr. Appell.
59-222 O— 67— pt. 5 16
3718 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appeoll. Paragraph 2, Mr. Stoudenmire, calls upon you to
produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your pos-
session, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your ca-
pacity as Grand Klabee (Treasurer) United Florida Ku Klux Klan and Klabee
(Treasurer) Jacksonville Klavern 502, United Florida Ku Klux Klan, also known
as Duval Fellowship Club and Paul Revere Historical Society of the United
Florida Ku Klux Klan which the "Constitution and Laws" of said organiza-
tion authorize and require to be maintained by you and any other officer of said
organization, the same being in your possession, custody or control.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 2, I ask that
you produce the documents called for.
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. You are directed and ordered to produce the docu-
ments called for in paragraph 2 at this time.
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, I hand you a bank signature card
covering a checking account in the name of the Fellowship Club
maintained by the Florida Dealers and Growers Bank, Jacksonville,
Florida.
I ask you if the signature contained on this card as the treasurer is
your signature?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so
might tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to answer by invoking
all of my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th,
10th, and 14th amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
(Document marked "John Stoudenmire Exhibit No. 1" follows:)
John Stoudenmire Exhibit No. 1
Fellowship Club , . .'
iSDi DUAL rt* •. .
FORM ao DMUMMOND PI»E»»
Ht.KinA in.M.t.UA AM. (ikOWKtfl BANK iuki^nrUl., KlorUto. U herrtj wt.'wrlMd tn recflintee ...Uj the sit
im'.i.r h-h't. n p«>rTOifit of fumte or ihe irMMrtlon of uiy „iti»r Ixttlmw for ■; mcoutI li U ««rM>.l by ttw <W
|M.i>„ il,«i it,re %ra.imi shall bf subject h, «rrtfr rhxrgf- n..* In ffffrt of lh»t uy l^ A-iermUv,} uj).m frnm tin.
I III.... >M.I ,.1, »J1 iNiUncr. .,f I.SS than f 1(K) ih» vhlH. ^r„n,r dormuii »n(l rrauln so U„ , i»-rl...l ..f ,n muniM .
ui^.iiilrti»ncr riuirKi- „f i\ (X) («., Bwith Is t,) b. nudr b..|i.,nlrM( mv in.,nihK from tli* .l»it ,rf .),. U--( -mrr
^^^^-i^jJ^-fd^ ^Xzc^
//JUL
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, the other signature on the card is
that of J. Mercer Johns. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to
affirm or deny the fact, that Mr. Johns is secretary and you are the
treasurer of a Klavern of the United Florida Ku Klux Klan, Klavern
No. 502, which uses as its cover name the Fellowship Club?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-»
viously stated.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3719
Mr. Weltner. What is the Fellowship Club, Mr. Stoudemnire ?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, I have in my hand a check dated
May 8, 1964, made payable to B. H. Griffin, who is Barton H. Griffin,
one of those indicted in the bombing of the Donald Godfrey home,
later found not guilty. The check is in the amount of $25. The
check is drawn against the account of the Fellowship Club. It is co-
signed by you and J. Mercer Johns.
Can you tell us the purpose for which this check was drawn?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
(Check marked "John Stoudenmire Exhibit No. 2" appears on p.
3720.)
Mr. Appell. Was the check drawn payable to Mr. Griffin to help
defray expenses incurred by him in connection with the indictment
growing out of the Godfrey bombing ?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Appell. I have another check dated November 13, 1964. This
one is payable to Gene Spegal, another of the codefendants in that
indictment, also later found not guilty. This is also in the amount
of $25 drawn against the same accoimt and containing the same
signatures.
Could you tell me the purpose for which this $25 was drawn ?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
(Check marked ''John Stoudenmire Exhibit No. 3" appears on p.
3720.)
Mr. Appell. I hand you copies of two checks, one dated July 30,
1965, payable to cash in the amount of $50, and the other dated
August 2, 1965 — originally it was July and it was stricken and August
was inserted — in the amount of $940, both checks drawn against
the Fellowship Club and both containing the signatures of Stouden-
mire and Johns.
In looking at these, Mr. Stoudenmire, I would like to ask you the
purpose for which they were drawn.
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
(Checks marked "John Stoudenmire Exhibit No. 4" appear on p.
3721.)
Mr. Appell. Were these checks drawn in order to defray expenses
of the trials of Bart Griffin, et al. ?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, I put it to you as a fact that this
account is an account of the Jacksonville Klavern No. 502.
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, I put it to you as a fact that Alton
O. Cooksey was the exalted cyclops of your Klavern, that he was the
Grand Klaliff of the United Florida Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and
up until the last election was the Acting Grand Dragon due to the
illness of Jason Kersey, the Grand Dragon.
3720 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
John Stoudenmire Exhibit No. 2
r>k»
w^k^<,i^^,.^^^^^^^a.MJU. ^ ''.^^::"Tr«
n^cjoifi
vif»JMN|^ ^^
uji»iiijiA|i^AKi»ciiawif»
' <?
WuvftkA M»«tf>rf
!^':#fi-i^l^
<ii. m*MW •*••» ••■ 'w *!■ •*
John Stoudenmire Exhibit No. 3
''^W/A-' ^^^^ '^'Sm.x.Aii** >
/y
-f^^i nji*«Mt»A XArtov* A «iMH r ttr
^L
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, the committee requested of the In-
ternal Revenue Service copies of corporate tax returns filed by the
Duval Fellowship Club, the Paul Revere Historical Society, and in
connection with this Internal Revenue agents interviewed Mr. Alton
O. Cooksey of 8851 Adams Avenue, Jacksonville, Florida.
The report reads, with respect to the Duval Fellowship Club :
Contact was made with Mr. Alton Cooksey at Ms residence on July 28, 1965
for the purpose of determining his aflBliation with the above named organization
and determining whether liability had been incurred for Federal taxes. He stated
that he was the president of the club, but declined to furnish any names of
the oflScers or the membership of the organization. He stated this organiza-
tion had existed for a period of six or seven years and that dues were collected
from each member on a quarterly basis. He voluntarily agreed that liability
had been incurred and that he would file the x-equired tax returns with Internal
Revenue Service on or before August 2, 1965. The returns have not been received
and follow-up has been initiated to secure these returns. We find that Mr.
Cooksey filed returns in his individual name for the years 1960 through
1964. * * *
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S. 3721
John Stoudenmire Exhibit No. 4
TOTA4. CA^*<
1 aw*!* •
• • */, * . . \,, -*-/
.IA« KHONMI I I . Il (>M!I>,\ ^ -t
K^, - lAruHoNviiiilioi
koyiiw i*AiJ^^K*CV<i/(4«»it^bi/i.
On August 23, there was a conference with Mr. Cooksey and his
attorney at the Internal Revenue Service, and the report reads :
After considerable discussion, it was determined that Mr. Cooksey was con-
fused when he stated on July 29, 1965, that dues were collected. Actually,
there is no organized club, and "Duval Fellowship Club", should be considered
to be a pseudonym only, and there are no regular meeting nights, no dues or fees
are collected. During political times, such as around the time elections are
held, Mr. Cooksey calls a few friends on the telephone, and they go to some
person's home, and hold informal discussions as to the merits of various political
candidates. Only about fifteen to twenty persons appear at these gatherings,
and the same persons are rarely at each meeting.
There are no records, and. there is no list of names, or roster. There is no
charter, no by-laws, and it is considered that no liability exists for filing Forms
720 or 1120.
Now, I ask you, Mr. Stoudenmire, whether or not this information
given to the Internal Revenue Service by Mr. Cooksey is factual?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that this is a Klavem of the United Florida Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, are you familar with an organiza-
tion known as the Duval Sportsmen Lodge ?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that this Duval Sportsmen
Lodge has since 1957 been the principal bank account now for the
3722 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
United Florida Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and prior thereto for
other Klan groups, such as the Florida Ku Klux Klan or when affiliated
with the U.S. Klans, a faction of that organization.
I ask you to affirm or deny that, sir.
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, do you know Mr. Gene Fallaw?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Fallaw testified on Monday that he does not have
the records of the United Florida Ku Klux Klan ; that he has not been
affiliated with the United Florida Ku Klux Klan since sometime be-
tween February and March of 1964 ; but that while he was an officer
of the United Florida Ku Klux Klan that the records of that organi-
zation were maintained by you.
Was Mr. Fallaw's testimony truthful ?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. What disposition did you make of the documents
which Mr. Fallaw testified were in your possession at the time he
was an officer of the United Florida Klan ?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr, Stoudenmire, I show you a series of statements
filed by the Duval Sportsmen Lodge covering authorized signatures
to an account maintained in that name at the Florida Dealers and
Growers Bank.
The first authorizes the signatures of J. L. Stoudenmire as treas-
urer and T, E. Brown as secretary, and that was effective September
10, 1957; effective June 30, 1959, with W. J. Walker as president and
J. L. Stoudenmire as treasurer; effective March 5, 1962, John P.
Garcia as secretary and J. L. Stoudenmire as treasurer; effective
September 26, 1963, and the current card at the time the committee
subpenaed the books and records duces tecum, Richard E. Kersey,
secretary, and J. Ia Stoudenmire, treasurer.
I hand you these, Mr. Stoudenmire and I ask you if your signature
is contained on each of these authorizations ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
(Documents marked "John Stoudenmire Exhibits Nos. 5-A through
5-D," respectively, appear on pp. 3723-3726.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, the checks received by the commit-
tee drawn against this account from 1960 to date contain, as one of
the two signatures to the account, your signature.
I ask you if these checks over a period of 6 years were written
without any records being maintained by you as to the disbursement
items for which Ithe checks were drawn.
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
(Checks marked "John Stoudenmire Exhibit No. 6" and retained in
committee files.)
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
John Stoudenmire Exhibit No. 5-A
Authority of Lodge, Association or Other Similar Organization
to Open Deposit Account
3723
To DEALERS & GROWERS STATE BANK
JACKSONVILLE. PLORIDA
At a regular meeting of the. l>uval Sportsmen Lodge _._
of ttie - _ memberB __,.... ,.^_
heldonthe 6th day of SeEtenber |0 57 o« wh;ch n qi.O'um
was present, the followmg officers ware duly elected f r the ensuing >efr and until their successors shall be
elected and shall ^ave qualified;
Name
J. ••. Stoudenmir*
T. F. "rown
Title
Treasurer
Secretaiy
Spe(;^ar; fiignature
Under the ruiei; of *he Duval Sportsmen Lodge
Any funds deposited to \\'. credit wItK a banit or trutf cmpany may be withdrawn by the. Treasurer aad__Secretary
' -<.« b a'^k spac«l fo* til'«i •
who . . . authorired tj eri:
The rt jfhority here'i qi^S'^
in writing of the revocation cJ ii
Atfix Seal Below
r
n
ivment of m>
■ vc b-^nli I' I- 'oncer*
'10 rei.c^pt *lier0of
^^/^^
y.fr-i'L'-'rl
J
Acc'.oJ
3724 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
John Stoudenmire Exhibit No. 5-B
Authority of Lodge, Association or Other Similar Orgoiuzation
to Open Deposit Account
To-
At a regular meeting of **'ff ■ — '^PZ^^int ^^^-^-^
of the ^/Ci^^^nLfy
_^____day of itfif-nr/i^
held on the ---^^ day of Jki^^n 4 i^ . , IP ^7 . at which a quorum
was present, the following ofFicers were duly elected for the ensuing year and until their successors shall be
elected and shall have qualified:
Name •" Title / %><Tiliiiiiii Jijfiiiliiiii y'
iT'L ^Tc^^^^/TAt/dA'
^Jl_^^^^^:^ij^kte4*i^£(^
Under the rules of f-n ^Jfj ^^^ r^t^/^^i^-mt/m/ CTy* *^ i ' ^ /} —
Any funds djtoosited to its credit with a bank or trust company may be withdrawn by *''i' j^4 t^<t t/^l^m'
(U^e bl^nk ipac«s for titias of signing cfftc«ri and sfe^a whethar chvcks w<tl b*«r on* Hgnatur* or wilt btt lignad and countarsiqnad).
who ^\t r' authoriied to endorse and sign Checks, Drafts and Orders for the payment of money.
The authority herein given is to remain irrevocable so far as the Above bank is concerned until it be notified
in writing of the revocation of such authority and shall in writing «cknowted9e receipt thereof
AfFl< Seal Below
r n
. Approved:
y/Uu^.?\JiL-
. ^J^fyt^-rrr^r-yr./
T J be signed by the
I retiring officers
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3725
John Stoudenmire Exhibit No. 5-C
Authority of Lodge, Association or Other Similar Organization
to Open Deposit Account
To-
At a regular masting of ttie. .^.
of the
held on the O —
jday of_
y/^c^itc-/^
19^'^. at which a quorum
was present, the following officers were duly elected for the ensuing year and until their successors shall be
elected and shall have qualified: TWO SIGNATURES REQUIRED
Under the rules of the.
'^ «-><7/^-^*-^"^^**-^-^'^ '-^^-^-''^V^
Any ^seas deposited to its crodit with a bank or trust company may be withdrawn by the f^'-^ i ^i nM'ttt^' ■
^
H^^lfl^
im SlfiHATURfS RgQoiweo
(Use blank spac«i for t>t1«f of S'griing cff'c«'i a' :J state x'tietKer ctieclit will beer one signature or will be siq'-ed anS countersigned)
whn ^y^L^ — * authnriied to endorse and sign Checks, Drafts and Orders for the payment of money.
The authority herein given is to remain irrevocable so far as the above bank !i concerned until it be notified
in writing of the revocation of such authority and shall in writing ackrjjjwledge recelptJh«»eof
Affix Seal Below f \ I
r
Ap/nbyed:
~l
LiM-
To be signed by the
g officers
I retirln.
3726 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
John Stoudenmire Exhibit No. 5-D
Authority ol Lodge, Association or Other Similar Organization
to Open Deposit Account
To
At a regular meeting of Hi«_a^SK^
^atu/<^
[)«♦» Cw^/.
of the ^\r<^f^/.,'r7i^^i^€0M*'n.i <?>^rj^
held on the / ~
. day of_
19.^^. at which a quorum
was pre-,eni. the following officen were duty elected for thf ' entuinq year and until their tuccessort jhall b«
elected and shall have qualified:
Name ^^ SIGNALS REQUIRED Sp*:im.n Signatur.
UnHer the rules of the.
Any funds depolited to its credit with a banli or ^truit company may be wilftdrawn by the.
^>^^r rn/Jt! ^ r^it4tA/
i£^«f
TH-.
■■^^'^i^n
(Use blank ipacsi (or litlai of liqninq '^ffic«ri and llaU whe^hsr chackt will bur on* llgoatur* or will b« liqrwd arvd countamqriad)
who^ ^^44— .«_-authoriied to endorse end sign Checks, Drafts and Orderj for the payment of money.
The authority herein given is to remain irrevocable so far as the above bank is concerned until it be notified
in writing of the revocation of such euthoriiy and shall in writing acknowledge receipt thereof
Affii Seal Below
4 _^/t<>^«tA- -^- 4i/>r^^.
To be signed by thr
retiring officers
S*c/«tafy
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, the committee's investigation estab-
lished that officers of the United Florida Ku Klux Klan were :
Grand Dragon — ^Jason Edgar Kersey of Samsula, Florida.
Grand Klaliff — Alton O. Cooksey of Jacksonville, Florida.
Grand klokard — William Richard Joyce of Ormond Beach, Florida.
The grand kludd was Rubin Talmadge Norton of Jacksonville,
Florida.
The grand kligrapp, or secretary — Richard Edgar Kersey.
The grand klabee — John Lee Stoudenmire.
The grand titan replacing Mr. Wood — Charles Lee Wilson of Jack-
sonville, Florida.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3727
The grand kladd — J. G. Hopkins of Plant City, Florida.
The grand klarogo — Gary Hogue of Plant City, Florida.
The grand klexter as George T. Luke of Orlando, Florida ; and the
grand klokan — M. A. Luke of Orlando, Florida, and the grand night-
hawk — Marshall Wise of Ocoee, Florida.
Did you know these men to hold the offices which I have stated to
you?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, an election was held in June of
1965. Where there any changes made in the grand officers of the
United Florida Klan other than I read to you ?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viosuly stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoudenmire, I put it to you as a fact that you
were born on September 19, 1908, at Flint, Georgia ; that you reside
at 961 Ontario, Jacksonville, Florida; and that you were employed
with the Duval Insulation and Weatherstripping Company, Jackson-
ville, Florida.
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions to ask
of Mr. Stoudenmire.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Buchanan ?
Mr. Buchanan. No questions.
Mr. Weltner. What is the Duval Sportsmen Lodge, Mr.
Stoudenmire ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Stoudenmire. I didn't understand your question.
Mr. Weltner. What is the Duval Sportsmen Lodge ?
Mr. Stoudenmire. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Weltner. The witness will be excused, and the documents prof-
fered to the witness during the course of his examination will be en-
tered into the record at this time.
You are excused, Mr. Stoudenmire.
Call your next witness, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Richard Kersey.
Mr. Weltner. Stand and raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give during the
course of this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Kersey. Yes, sir.
3728 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Weltner. Be seated, please.
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD EBGAR KERSEY, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, J. B. STONER
Mr. Appell. Mr. Kersey, will you state your full name for the
record ?
Mr. Kersey. Richard Edgar Kersey.
Mr. Appell. Are you represented by counsel?
Mr. Kersey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Counsel identify himself for the record.
Mr. Stoner. J. B. Stoner, attorney at law, Marion Building,
Augusta, Georgia.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Kersey, are you here today in accordance with a
subpena served upon you in the Conrad Building, De Land, Florida,
on January 26, 1966?
Mr. Kersey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Kersey, the subpena served upon you contained
an attachment, which was made a part of the subpena, and under the
conditions of the subpena you were commanded to bring with you
and to produce documents set forth in certain paragraphs of the
subpena.
Paragraph 1 reads:
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the United Florida
Ku Klux Klan, in your possession, custody or control, or maintained by you or
available to you as Grand Kligrapp (Secretary) of the United Florida Ku Klux
Klan.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 1, I ask you
to produce the documents called for.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Kersey. I refuse on the grounds that to do so might tend to
incriminate me, and I also refuse by invoking all of my rights and
privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th amend-
ments to the Constitution of the United States of America.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Kersey, have you been furnished a copy of
Chairman Willis' opening statement ?
Mr. Kersey. Yes.
Mr. Weltner. Are you familiar with the contents of that statement ?
Mr. Kersey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Weltner. The committee does not accept your reasons for fail-
ing to produce these documents, and you are ordered and directed to
produce them at this time.
Mr. Kersey. I refuse on all of the groimds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. You have an opportunity, if you so desire, to present
to the committee any reason to show that you are unable to comply
with the terms of the subpena.
Mr. Kersey. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. Proceed, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. Paragraph 2, Mr. Kersey, calls upon you to produce :
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3729
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your pos-
session, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your capacity
at Grand Kligrapp (Secretary) of the United Florida Ku Klux Klan, which the
"Constitution and Laws" of said organization authorize and require to be main-
tained by you and any other oflScer of said organization, the same being in your
possession, custody or control.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 2, I ask you
to produce the documents called for.
Mr. Kersey. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. You are ordered and directed to produce the docu-
ments at this time.
Mr. Kersey. I refuse on all the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that the Internal
Revenue Service reports that no corporate records have been filed,
we will not ask for the production of the items called for in para-
graphs 3 and 4.
When and where were you born, Mr. Kersey ?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so might
tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to answer by invoking
all of my rights under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and
14th amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Kersey, I put it to you as a fact that you are the
son of Jason Kersev, Grand Dragon of the United Florida Ku Klux
Klan.
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should note at this
point the committee authorized and there was served upon Jason
Edgar Kersey as the Grand Dragon of the United Florida Klan a
subpena calling for his appearance and the production of documents
maintained by the Grand Dragon.
The committee has received a medical statement which conclusively
establishes that Mr. Kersey is physically incapable of giving testi-
mony.
Mr. Weltner. One minute, please.
In view of that announcement by the investigator, the committee's
action at this point is to discharge Mr. Jason Kersey from any and
all further obligation or responsibility pursuant to the service of the
subpena and to cancel the same, and that action is taken herewith.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Kersey, are you acquainted with the fact that on
June 25, 1961, at a convention held in Orlando, Florida, the United
Florida Klan was born ?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. I did not understand the last few words of your
question,
Mr. Appell. Wliether or not on that date he was familiar with the
fact that at a meeting in Orlando, Florida, the United Florida Ku
Klux Klan as an organization was born.
Mr. Kersey, I have a copy of resolutions adopted at that convention.
I shall read them into the record and ask you for any comment after
I am finished with them. [Reading :]
3730 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
1. That the Florida Ku Klux Klan and the United Ku Klux Klan unite into
one State Organization at once. Resolution adopted.
2. The organization be called, "The United Florida Ku Klux Klan." Resolution
adopted.
3. Both Klans use the literature, books and regalia they now have until same
is used up. The new literature be printed in the new name, "The United Florida
Ku Klux Klan." Resolution adopted.
This refers to Jason E. Kersey —
4. That Kersey remain as Grand Dragon for one year. Resolution adopted.
5. That The United Klan of Florida have no State Charter. Resolution
adopted.
6. That the State Officers of both Organizations be declared vacant and that
new officers be elected today. Resolution adopted.
7. That the body nominate and elect State Officers. Resolution adopted.
8. That all life memberships be revoked and that new life membership be
presented to worthy members of 63 years of age or older, or to disable [sic] mem-
bers. Resolution adopted.
9. That we have no motorcades, street walkings, parades, cross burnings or
rallies for security reasons. Resolution adopted.
10. That we do away with all membership cards. Resolution rejected.
Mr. Weltner. Rejected?
Mr. Appell. Rejected. [Continues reading :]
11. That the State per capta [sic] tax be $1.00 per quarter and that the initia-
tion fee be $10.00 of which $5.00 goes to the state and $5.00 goes to the local unit.
Resolution adopted.
12. That the local dues be .set by the local unites [sic]. Resolution adopted.
13. That worthy members be promoted to the Degree of K-Duo. Resolution
adopted, and a committee chairman was appointed by the Grand Dragon to head
up a committee to work on the higher Degree of Klan Kraft.
14. That the State Secretary of the Florida Ku Klux Klan be a resident of the
same or adjoining the County as the presiding Grand Dragon. Resolution rejected.
Mr. Kersey, I hand you this and ask you if this was the action taken
by that convention on June 25, 1961 ?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
(Document marked "Richard Kersey Exhibit No. 1" follows:)
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3731
Richard Kersey Exhibit No. 1
THS UNITED FLo.(ID« KU UXL. Uu.N
8?SCI-I BUXLZTIK oF R^SOLLTIuir^ i'AEiZHTZi' T*.. AITHU— CuiyVJillOI
ORI-rDO, FLCali;*, JUITZ 80, 1961.
1. That the Florida Kii i.lux }JLrn and tho United Ku lO-xut BLfin
unite into one ot-it- Or^ani;,."tion at one. Resolution adootcd.
2. The or{:.ini::.atlon -b-- c.^llrd, "2hc Ifcitcd Florida hii liux Klan."
Resolution ado.vt'-d.
3. 3oth Klsr.s ute ■tnc liter, tiirc, 'cooks .ind re^iilie they now hevo
until zRu.r io u&ed up. Inc nc\- literature be .printed in thr
no* name, "Ihc united ilorid'u hu tSbxz: .JLrjn," if solution ftdoptcA,
4. That iicrEcy rciuain ac Grr."jr.u Lt< jon lor or.'- year, .-te solution
cdo.itod.
)'B, aiat 'Tl^c Uuiied laan ol Florid.^ hav. no ot^te ci'-'Ctcr.
I .^eoolution i(\o:tri.
I'
l^» That the 5t.= tc Officers of both orsani-ations b" declared vacent
? and that ncv< oflicors be elected tod.jy. resolution adopted.
;7. That the body nouiinate .:nc elect at.vt: Officers, .\ocolution
; 8do:^tcd.
B, That all lif: m-mbe^ u-ii.:.G be revoked and tn^-t nev life meabcrship
bo presented to wortny m'l.ibcro of be yer.rc of j;;;e or older, or
to dteable meuihris. .c.-:,oultion .idoiteU.
9. That wc havr iio »iotorc;dc&, street walLinss, jsr.ic.ec, cros&
buruta^s or rsllieslor s-ciu-ity r'-.'-oone. .iesolution adOjitcd.
10. ?b«t wc do awKy v.ith r.ll r..einber shiT c-.rds. iiesolution rojcotc4«
11. That ttc itate jer c.3pta tRx be ^1.00 per quarter and that the
Initiation fer be ,10.00 of '.^liich j>6.00 .^o'-'s to th*" atate end
vS'OO GTE to til'- loc?.l luiit. .iesolution •-'dotted.
•lii. That the local ■'Mies c'- set by the local unites. . resolution
.'dopted.
1S« Tliat vorthy faemc.:rs be pronioted to tl!'- J^-^i-cc of K-D\io.
iiecolution 4<do.;trd, a.-A h coi.iL.ittT cii.^ii*u.3n i .".s aj.'ointed by
the Gr.'nd Dragon to hn^d up k, coriuitt-e to v/orl: ontiie
higher i^c^ree of -J^r. .j:.-:ft.
14. That the otJte a'crct-ry of the Fici ida ..u .J.\u: iJ..en tr «
resident of t;-.<- z:i,\' cv 'Cjoiniiv tn- Cca.ntv ?-£ the i}reol4~
ii. Crund */r. ' Oi . .<' „ lu:,i;>n .'■j-ci-d.
3732 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Kersey, I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to
affirm or deny the fact, that you have been a member of the Klan since
1958, when you were 20 years of age, and that in September 1959, you
were elected to kligrapp of the De Land Klavern and that in June of
1962, you were elected the grand kligrapp or secretary of the United
Klan or of the Florida Ku Klux Klan and that you have held the
position of grand kligrapp since that time.
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Kersey, are you Acting Grand Dragon in view of
the illness of your father at the present time ?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Weltner. Under the combined organization, Mr. Appell, pur-
suant to the action of June 25, 1961, the highest officer in the United
Florida Ku Klux Klan is the Grand Dragon; is that correct?
Mr. Appell. That is correct.
Mr. Weltner. Consequently, the designation grand before any title
would mean that that is the chief officer holding those responsibilities
within the entire organization of the United Florida Ku Klux Klan ;
is that correct ?
Mr. Appell. That is true.
Mr. Weltner. Then this witness being the grand kligrapp would
be the chief secretary of the entire organization of the United Florida
Ku Klux Klan ; is that correct ?
Mr. Appell. That is also correct, sir.
Mr. Kersey, I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that the exalted cyclops of the De Land Klavern known as De
Land Klavern 8-1 and also known as the 8-1 Sportsman's Club is
Edward Arnold Kersey ; that the klaliff is Frank T. Holder, Jr. ; that
the current secretary is Bill Joyce, who also is the grand klokard ; that
the klabee is Joe Tomazin, Jr.; and that the klokard is Porter E.
Rossner.
I ask you to affirm or deny that fact, sir.
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all the ground previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the 8-1 Sportsman's Club maintains a
bank account at the Florida Bank at De Land, De Land, Florida.
In the bank the address of the 8-1 Sportsman's Club is recorded as
Route 1, New Smyrna Beach, Florida.
I ask that the authorized signature cards of this Klan account going
back to February 24, 1957, through the current signature card dated
1-23-64 be made a part of the record at this point.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3733
Mr. Weltner. Does the name of this witness appear on any of
the cards?
Mr. Appell. No, sir ; it does not, but this is the Klavern to which
this witness holds formal membership.
Mr. Weltner. These photostatic copies received from the Florida
Bank?
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir ; in accordance with the subpena duces tecum.
Mr. Weltner. They will be entered into the record at this point.
(Documents marked "Richard Kersey Exhibit No. 2 and retained
in committee files.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Kersey, I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to
affirm or deny the fact, that the meetings of this Klavern are held
on a farm owned by your father.
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Is there still active in Lake City, Florida, the Lake
City Klavern of the United Florida Klan under Exalted Cyclops
Thomas Edison Booth?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Is there still active at Nassau County Klavern No. 501
at Yulee, Florida, under the Exalted Cyclops James Lewis ?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Atpell. Is there still active at Oak Hill, Oak Hill Rod and
Gun Club, Oak Hill, Florida, under Exalted Cyclops Ray Wend'all
Goodrich ?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Is there still active in Jacksonville, the Robert E. Lee
Klavern 506 under Kenneth Marvin Overstreet?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Is there still active in Jacksonville the Robert E. Lee
Klavern 508 under Exalted Cyclops Saint Elmo Mattox ?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Is there still active in Jacksonville the Robert E. Lee
Klavern 513 under Willie Eugene Wilson?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. With respect to Robert E. Lee Klavern 513, did you
know Frank Thomas Rigdon to be a member of that Klavern?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell, I put it to you as a fact that in July of 1964 he was a
member and he was arrested for burning a cross on the residence of
the former superintendent of schools in Jacksonville, Florida, for
which he was tried and fined.
Mr. Weltner. Tried and convicted?
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir.
I put that to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny the fact.
59-222 O— 67— pt. 5 17
3734 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr, Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. In Jacksonville, Florida, do you know the exalted
Cyclops of Robert E. Lee Klavem 514 to be Robert Vincent Hanirick ?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. In Jacksonville, Florida, Robert E. Lee Klavem 518,
do you know the exalted cyclops to be John Edwin Crissman ?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. In St. Augustine, Florida, Klavem No. 519, do you
know the exalted cyclops to be Buddie Sam Cooper?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. In Jacksonville, Florida, Robert E. Lee Klavern 520,
the Exalted Cyclops Wayne J. Norris. Do you know him to be the
exalted cyclops of that Klavern ?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. In Sebring, Florida, do the United Florida Klans have
a Klavem there know as Imperial Klavem 27-1 with the Exalted
Cyclops Charles Fritz ?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Does the United Florida Klan have a Klavern in
Apopka, Florida, known as the West Orange Sportsman's Lodge with
the Exalted Cyclops Lonnie Edward Strickland ?
Mr. Kersey, I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Does the United Florida Klan have a Klavem at Au-
burndale, Florida, with the Exalted Cyclops A. C, Smith ?
Mr, Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell, At Dade City, Florida, does the United Florida Klan
have a Klavem under the Exalted Cyclops Louis Hodges?
Mr, Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. At Haines City, Florida, does the United Florida
Klan have a Klavern under the Exalted Cyclops Marlim Gashaw?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. At Lake Wales, Florida, does the United Florida
Klan have a Klavern under the exalted cyclops of — known by the
name of Carl Capps?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. At Lakeland, Florida, does the United Florida Klan
have a Klavern mider the Exalted Cyclops C, L. Sheffield?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. At Melbourne, Florida, does the United Florida Klan
have a Klavern under Exalted Cyclops Benjamin Rotgers?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3735
Mr. Appell. At Orlando, Florida, does the United Florida Klan
have a Klavem under Exalted Cyclops George Thomas Luke ?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Also at Orlando, does the United Florida Klan have
a Klavern known as the Sherwood Club, 7-2 Club, under the Exalted
Cyclops Marshall L. Wise?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. At Plant City, Florida, does the United Florida Klan
have a Klavern known as the East Hillsborough County Sportsman's
Club under the Exalted Cyclops Gary Hogue?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Under the constitution and laws of the United Florida
Klan, as the grand kligrapp, are each of these organizations required
to furnish you with a report of the number of members and to transmit
to the State offices through you a financial report based on mem-
bership ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Kersey, following the arrest of William Rose-
crans, was a meeting held at your father's farm for the i)urpose of
securing attorneys for Rosecrans and later for the others indicted?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Do you possess knowledge as to the guilt or innocence
of the ones indicted, growing out of the Godfrey bombing ?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated,
Mr. Appell. Do you possess knowledge of violence carried out by
members of the United Florida Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Kersey. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr, Chairman, the staff has no further questions to
ask of this witness.
Mr. Weltner, Mr, Buchanan ?
Mr, Buchanan, No questions,
Mr, Weltner. Mr. Kersey, you have an opportunity at this point,
if you so desire, to offer any matter which the committee might deem
relevant to this inquiry.
You are afforded that opportunity at this time.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Kersey. No, thanks.
Mr, Weltner, The witness will be excused.
The committee will take a 5-minute recess, and the Chair will an-
nounce that we probably will proceed for approximately 1 hour more
unless the committee is interrupted by quorum bells.
(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken. Subcommittee members
present at time of recess and when hearings resumed : Representatives
Weltner and Buchanan,)
Mr, Weltner, The subcommittee will resume.
Mr. Appell, Mr, Chairman, before calling the next witness, I would
like to ask that the bank records relating to Klaverns of the United
3736
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Florida Klans, together with information obtained by the committee
during its investigation which establishes its officers, locations, and
other pertinent information with respect to Klaverns, be made a part
of the record.
Mr. Weltner. Is that request joined with your statement that this
information is the result of the committee's investigation and that it
is accurate and correct ?
Mr. Appell. It is accurate and correct, sir, as of the time the in-
vestigation was made. It will not be accurate if there have been sub-
sequent elections which change the officers, but as of May of 1965 the
information is accurate.
Mr. Weltner. Without objection, the information will be inserted
at this point in the record along with the documents as requested.
(Bank records marked "Richard Kersey Exhibit No. 3" and re-
tained in committee files. A list of the various Klaverns and officers
of such Klaverns of the United Florida Ku Klux Klan follows:)
United Florida Ku Klux Klan
klaverns ^ officers
West Orange Sportsman's Lodge Lonnie Edward Strickland, exalted
#7-3 Cyclops
(Apopka, Fla.)- Richard C. Lebre, klaliff
Norman Eishone, klokan
Robert Monroe Craig, kludd
Rudolph J. Kramer, kligrapp
William Herbert Lldswick, klabee
Robert Lacey Eishone, kladd
Howard Taft Carpenter, klarogo
Kenneth Joseph Carriveau, klexter
Ola Paris McCafferty, night-hawk
Donald Lee Eishone, klokan chief
Auburndale Klavem, also known A. C. Smith, exalted cyclops
as Auburndale Fisherman's Deimer Shook, klaliff
Olub Roy Meadows, kligrapp
(Auburndale, Fla.) James Sutton, klarogo and klexter
Gerald Exum, klokan
Albert Hall, klabee
Dade City Klavern,* also known as Louis Hodges, exalted cyclops
Confederate Club #38 Marvin Merritt, kligrapp
(Dade City, Fla.) P. C. Buttram, kludd
Patriot Klavem*
(Gainesville, Fla.)
Haines City Klavern, also known
as Central Sportsman's Club
#101
(Haines City, Fla.)
Jacksonville Klavem #502, also
known as Paul Revere Histori-
cal Society, Duval Fellowship
Club and Fellowship Club
(Jacksonville, Fla.)
Robert E. Lee Klavern #506
( Jacksonville, Fla. )
See footnotes at end of table.
Marlim Gashaw, exalted cyclops
David Gribbs, klaliff
Paul Hamford, klokard
J. L. Bunn, kludd
John T. Willis, kligrapp
James Little, kladd
Sam Bunch, klarogo and klokan chief
Dick Easley, klexter
Virgil Gashaw, night-hawk
Alton O. Cooksey, exalted cyclops
John Mercer Johns, kligrapp
John Lee Stoudenmire, klabee
Kenneth Marvin Overstreet, exalted
cyclops
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
3737
United iFlorida Ku Klux Klan — Continued
KLAVERNS
Robert E. Lee Klavern #508
(Jacksonville, Fla.)
Robert E. Lee Klaveni #513
(Jacksonville, Fla.)
Robert E. Lee Klavern #514*
(Jacksonville, Fla.)
Robert E. Lee Klavern #518*
(Jacksonville, Fla.)
Robert E. Lee Klavern #520
(Jacksonville, Fla.)
Lake Butler Klavern*
(Lake Butler, Ma.)
Lake City Klavern
(Lake City, Fla.)
Lake Wales Klavern, also known
as Pioneer Club 5-4
(West Lake Wales, Fla.)
Lakeland Klavern, also known as
Forrest Club #11 and United
Gun Club
(Lakeland, Fla.)
Melbourne Klavern, also known as
West Melbourne Sportsman's
Club
(Melbourne, Fla.)
Mount Dora Klavern*
(Mount Dora, Fla.)
Oak Hill Rod and Gun Club "
(Oak Hill, Fla.)
Marion Klavern*
(Oeala, Fla.)
See footnotes at end of table.
Saint Elmo Mattox, exalted cyclops
Willie Eugene Wilson, exalted cyclops
Cecil Steward, klaliff
Donald Eugene Spegal, klokard and
kligrapp
Donald Harold Butler, klabee
Jack Reed, kludd
Herman J. Morris, klai-ogo
Robert Vincent Hamrick, exalted cy-
clops
John Edwin Orissman, exalted cyclops
Wayne J. Norris, exalted cyclops
Bill Williams, klaliff
James F. Pope, klokan
James Leopard, kludd
Mrs. Wayne Norris, kligrapp
Mrs. James Leopard, klabee
Thomas Edison Booth, exalted cyclops
Caii Capps, exalted cyclops
•John Rogers, klaliff
Bill Bovsonan, kligrapp
Miles Headen, klabee
Gene McLean, klokan
A. R. Woods, kladd
Harvey Balkim (or Balkom), acting
night-hawk
O. L. SheflSeld, exalted cyclops
Donald Johnson, klaUff
William Townsend, klokard
N. F. Byrd, kludd
Curtis Boykin, kladd
A. A. Heady, klarogo
James Ready, klexter
Mack Spivey, klokan
H. W. Grimes, night-hawk
Benjamin Rotgers, exalted cyclops and
klabee
Willard William Yates, Jr., klaliff
Brent "Pappy" Strand, kludd
John Johnson, kligrapp
George DeMont Millon, kladd
Richard Dixon, klarogo
Ray Green, klexter
John Green, klokan
Bill Murphy, night-hawk
Ray Wendall Goodrich, exalted cyclops
3738
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Unmed vFlobida Ku Klux Klan — Continued
KLAVEKNS ^
Orlando Klavem, also known as
7-lOIub'
(Orlando, Fla.)
Orlando Klavern, also known as
7-2 Club and Sherwood Olub"
( Orlando, Fla.)
Putnam Klavern*
(Palatka, Fla.)
Pedro Klavem #15-1,* also known
as Marlon — Sumter Sports-
men's Olub
(Pedro, Fla.)
Plant City Klavem, also known as
East Hillsborough County
Sportsman's Club
(Plant City, Fla.)
St. Augustine Klavem #519
(St. Augustine, Fla.)
De Land Klavern, also known as
8-1 Sportsman's Club
(Samsula, Fla.)
Imperial Klavern #27-1,
known as Imperial Club
(Sebring, Fla.)
also
Nassau County Klavem #501
(Yulee, Fla.)
George Thomas Luke, exalted cyclops
Leroy Lake, kligrapp and klabee
Robert Monroe Craig, klarogo
Billy Carl Edwards, klexter
Milton A. Luke, klokan
Marshall Lee Wise, exalted cyclops
(succeeded during 1965 by Lonnie
Edward Strickland)
Chilton StiU, klalifE
Benjamin Franklin Gibson, klokard
Robert Monroe Craig, kludd
Winfred Lewis Whitehead, kligrapp
William Herbert Barwick, klabee
Thomas Jefferson Fuller, kladd
Hubert Strickland, klexter
Ola Paris McCafferty, night-hawk
Gary Hogue, exalted cyclops
Jack Lunsf ord, klaliff
Jack Baker, klokard
Butler Polk, kludd
Wayne Hickey, kligrapp
J. G. Hawkins, klabee
Eugene AUen, kladd
J. D. Wood, klarogo
Dan Wood, klexter
C. W. Manedin, klokan
Carl Sheffield, night-hawk
William Foster, kleagle
Buddie Sam Cooper, exalted cyclops
Jerome F. "Rusty" Godwin, klaliff
Edward Arnold Kersey, exalted cyclops
Frank T. Holder, Jr.. klaUff
William Richard Joyce, kligrapp
Joe Tomazin, Jr., klabee
Porter E. Rossner, klokard
Charles lYitz, exalted cyclops
Ivey Waldron, Jr., klaliff
Donald Hamlin, klokard
I. W. Grissom, kludd
Jack Prescott, kligrapp
James Lewis, exalted cyclops
1 This is a list of Klaverns of the United Florida Ku Klux Klan which committee investi-
gations revealed were operating in 1964 and/or 1965. A single asterisk (*) following
the name of the Klavern indicates that the Klavern became inactive at some point within
this period.
2 The UFKKK in the Orlando-Apopka area was represented by three Klaverns. When
Klavern membership fell below minimum requirements, some officers occupied official posts
in more than one Klavern.
3 It is the committee's information that the membership of this Klavern has been ab-
sorbed into the De Land Klavern at Samsula, Fla., and that Oak Hill Rod and Gun Club
no longer exists as a separate organization.
Mr. Weltner. Proceed with your next witness, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. Joseph Thomas Huett.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3739
Mr. Weltner. Stand and. raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this hearing
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. HuETT. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH THOMAS HUETT, SR.
Mr. Appell. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. HuETT. Joseph Thomas Huett, Sr.
Mr. Weltner. I notice that you are not represented.
Do you understand your right to have counsel represent you in
these hearings?
Mr. Weltner. The committee advises you that you have a right
to have counsel represent you if you so desire. I wanted to be sure
you imderstood your right.
Mr. Huett. If somewhere along the line if I decide I need one, can
I shut it off?
Mr, Weltner. If at any time you feel you desire counsel, let the
committee know and we will suspend in order to let you obtain counsel.
Do you understand your rights under the Constitution, particularly
the fifth amendment of the Constitution, to refuse to answer questions ?
Mr. Huett. Yes.
Mr. Weltner. Is it your desire to proceed at this time without
counsel ?
Mr. Huett. Yes.
Mr. Weltner. Go ahead, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Huett, did you receive a copy of the chairman's
opening statement of October 1965 and have you read it and are you
familiar with its contents ?
Mr. Huett. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Huett, are you appearing here today in accord-
ance with a subpena served upon you on February 15, 1966, at 337
Simpson Street, Moimt Dora, Florida ?
Mr. Huett. I was served but not at 337 Simpson.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Huett, the subpena served upon you called for you
to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the United Florida Ku
Klux Klan and aflSliated organizations; namely, Mount Dora Klavem also
known as the Mount Dora Dunkers Club, in your possession, custody or control,
or maintained by you or available to you as present or former Exalted Cyclops,
Mount Dora Klavem of the United Florida Ku Klax Klan.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 1, 1 ask you to
produce the documents called for.
Mr. Huett. All I have is a statement of the bank of the Dunkers
Club.
Mr. Weltner. What is the name of that club ?
Mr. Huett. Dunkers Club.
Mr. Weltner. D-u-n-k-e-r-s?
Mr. Huett. D-u-n-k-e-r-s.
Mr. Weltner. Is it your testimony, Mr. Huett, that the only record
that you have in your possession or which might be available to you
which fits the description contained in the subpena is the statement
you are now submitting to the committee ?
3740 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. HtJETT. That is correct.
Mr. Appell. When and where were you bom, Mr. Huett ?
Mr. Huett. Center Hill, Florida, 1919, December 24.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Huett, what was the Dunkers Club ?
Mr. Huett. Just a night-out-a-week club, boys get together and
have a little fun.
Mr. Appell. Did it have any affiliation with any group known to
you to be a Klan organization ?
Mr. Huett. I don't know if it did or not.
Mr. Appell. Were you ever its president ?
Mr. Huett. Yes.
Mr. Appell. Were you ever its
Mr. Huett. But I didn't do very much when I was president.
Mr. Appell. Did it pay dues to any organization ?
Mr. Huett. Not that I remember.
Mr. Appell. Were you at any time affiliated with the Ku Klux
Klan organization ?
Mr. Huett. I was with the Dunkers Club and have stated in here
that it was affiliated with it.
Mr. Appell. But you were an officer of it, sir. Don't you know
whether it was affiliated ?
Mr. Huett. I was in charge of it.
Mr. Appell. You never knew it to be ?
Mr. Huett. I kind of suspected that some of the fellows might
have been, but I couldn't say.
Mr. Appell. What did one do to become a member of the Dunkers
Club?
Mr. Huett. He was invited out by someone else.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Huett, I find it difficult to hear you. Would
you speak up a little more and speak more directly into the micro-
phone ?
Mr. Huett. My voice don't carry very well.
Mr. Appell. Did you know it also to carry a designation of 12-3 ?
Mr. Huett. 12-3?
Mr. Appell, Yes.
Mr. Huett. I don't remember.
Mr. Appell. Did you ever sign an application for membership in
a Ku Klux Klan organization ?
Mr. Huett. I don't believe I did.
Mr. Appell. Did you ever take an oath subscribed to by members of
a Klan organization which carried a form similar to that which I am
handing you ?
Mr. Weltner, State what the document is, Mr. Appell,
Mr. Appell. It is a series of oaths administered to members of Klan
organizationsi (See obert Shelton Exhibit No. 4, Committee report,
The Present-Day Ku Klux Klan Movement, pp. 343-346.)
Mr. Weltner. Which Klan organization ?
Mr. Appell. This particular one was obtained by the committee
Mr. Huett. I have taken several oaths and some similar to that. I
wouldn't say that was one.
Mr. Appell. Wlien you took an oath which was similar to this, what
was your purpose of taking it ?
Mr. Weltner. Let's suspend a moment here. Have you ever taken
a Klan oath ? Have you ever joined the Ku Klux Klan ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3741
Mr. HuETT. No, sir.
Mr. Weltner. Have you ever joined any Kii Klux Klan organi-
zation ?
Mr. HxjETT. I might have, if this is one, yes.
Mr, Weltner. Is it you testimony that you do not know whether
or not the Dunkers Ckib was a Klan organization ?
Mr. HuETT. I don't know.
Mr. Weltner. Did you ever take an oath that contained within the
body of the oath the name Ku Kkix Klan or Klan ?
Mr. HuETT. I don't remember.
Mr. Appell, Mr. Huett, what is your educational background ?
Mr. HuETT. I finished the 8th grade.
Mr. Appell. When, sir?
Mr. HuETT. That, I don't know. I guess it was 1933 or 1934.
Mr, Appell. What has been your employment since 1960 ?
Mr. HuETT. Police work.
Mr. Appell. What is your current employment ?
Mr. Huett. Police work.
Mr. Appell. In the way of police work, what type of police work?
Mr. Huett. City police.
Mr. Appell. Do you hold an office wnthin the Mount Dora City
Police Department ?
Mr. Huett. Yes.
Mr. Appell. What office do you hold ?
Mr. Huett. Chief of police.
Mr. Appell. Would you tell the committee where you took oaths
which you say are similar in part to this, but not verbatim to this?
Mr. Huett. I took one in — I don't remember what date — Junior
American Auto Mechanics. When I was sworn into office I took an
oath that had part of that in it.
Mr. Appell. Wlien you were sworn into office, did you have an oath
that "I most solemnly swear that I will forever keep sacredly secret,
the signs, words and grip"
Mr. Huett. No, it didn't have anything like that in it.
Mr. Appell. Wliich of these specific oaths did you take and w^hich
one did you not take ?
Mr. Huett. I would have to read it and see.
Mr. Weltner. Give the witness the document once again and ask
him to look at it.
Mr. Huett, each of these papers is an oath of the form usually used
by Klan organizations known to be the United Klans of America and
it conforms pretty much to all other Klan organizations.
It is not your statement that the Junior Order of Mechanics is in
any wav connected with the Ku Klux Klan ; is it ?
Mr. Huett. No, sir.
Mr. Weltner. What we are trying to determine here is to the best
of your recollection whether or not you ever took a Klan oath and
whether or not you ever joined any Klan organization.
Mr, Huett, This part over here on page three, I guess it is, where it
says:
I most solemnly assert and affirm that to the government of the United States
of America and any State thereof, of which I may become a resident, I sacredly
swear an unqualified allegiance above any other and every kind of government
in the whole world * * *
3742 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
The one I took don't read just like that. "This Constitution and
law is to protect, defend unto death."
I think you know the oath I took.
Mr. Weltner. We do not know the oath you took. We just want
you to tell us whether or not you ever took the Klan oath.
Mr. Buchanan. Did you take any kind of oath when you joined the
Dunkers Club?
Mr. HuETT. No.
Mr. Appell. In connection with your membership, Mr. Huett, in
the Dunkers Club, did you ever attend any meetings outside the State
of Florida such as Arkansas, Georgia, Texas ?
Mr. Huett. I have been all over ; yes.
Mr. Appell. I assume that you have been all over, but I am asking
you whether or not in connection with your membership in the Dunkers
Club whether you attended any meetings in Arkansas, Georgia, and
Texas?
Mr. HuETT. I don't believe there is a Dunkers Club in either one
of these places.
Mr. Appell. I didn't ask you that, sir. I asked you whether or not
you attended any meetings in those places in connection with your
membership in the Dunkers Club ?
Mr. Huett. I don't remember.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Huett, have you ever attended any meeting in
the States of Georgia that was attended by persons known to you to
be members of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Huett. I don't remember.
Mr. Weltner. Have you ever attended a meeting in the State of
Arkansas which was also attended by persons known to you to be
members of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Huett. I couldn't rightfully say.
Mr. Weltner. Have you ever attended any Klan meeting ?
Mr. Appell. I didn't hear the answer. Was there an answer ?
Mr. Weltner. The question was whether or not you ever attended
any Klaji meetings ?
Mr. Huett. I attended some public speakings ; yes.
Mr. Weltner. Specifically, did you attend the State klonvokation
of the United Florida Ku Klux Klan in 1964 ?
Mr. Huett. I don't remember.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Huett, how large is the town of Mount Dora?
Mr. Huett. About 4,000 people.
Mr. Weltner. And you are the chief of police of that town ?
Mr. Huett. Yes.
Mr. Weltner. How many members of the police force are there?
Mr. Huett. Seven, besides myself.
Mr. Weltner. How long have you been chief of police ?
Mr. Huett. Since 1960.
Mr. Weltner. How long have you been in police work ?
Mr. Huett. Since 1957.
Mr. Weltner. That is 8 or 9 years.
Mr. Huett. Right.
Mr. Weltner. In police work, isn't it very important that an offi-
cer of the law be able to observe actions, be able to recall details, and
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3743
be able to reconstruct things that happened within his presence? Is
that an important part of police work ?
Mr. HuETT. Yes.
Mr. Weltner. Is that not part of the training that you give to your
men?
Mr. HuETT. Yes.
Mr. Weltner. Is it not also very important that an officer of the
law have a memory that can recall details and identities and times
and places and circumstances and incidents ?
Mr. HuETT. Yes.
Mr. Weltner. Are you telling us that you do not recall whether
or not you have ever been to any Klan meeting ?
Mr. HuETT. I would rather not answer. Let's get an attorney.
I didn't know you were going to give me the third degree here.
Mr. Weltner. Very well. You have that right. The committee
will suspend the appearance of this witness in order to permit him to
obtain counsel, and I will ask the director of the committee, Mr.
McNamara, to confer with the witness with that in mind.
Mr. Huett, at this point you are excused, continued under subpena
and under an obligation and responsibility to return as expeditiously
as possible after you have been able to obtain counsel.
Mr. McNamara, would you confer with the witness at this point?
The witness may now leave the witness stand.
Call your next witness, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. Donald Joseph Ballentine.
Mr. Weltner. Raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this
hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Ballentine. I do.
TESTIMONY OF DONALD JOSEPH BALLENTINE, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, J. B. STONER
Mr. Appell. State your full name for the record.
Mr. Ballentine. Donald Joseph Ballentine.
Mr. Appell. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Ballentine. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. Appell. Counsel identify himself for record.
Mr. Stoner. J. B. Stoner, attorney at law, Marion Building,
Augusta, Georgia.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Ballentine, are you appearing here today in ac-
cordance with a subpena served upon you at 3834 Notter Avenue,
Jacksonville, Florida, on February 14, 1966 ?
Mr. Ballentine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Ballentine, the subpena served upon you con-
tained an attachment, which was made a part of the subpena, and
under the terms of the subpena you were commanded to bring with
you and produce before the committee items described in the attach-
ment, paragraph 1, reading:
ah books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the Militant Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan in your possession, custody or control, or maintained by
3744 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
you or available to you as Imperial Wizard of the Militant Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 1, Mr. Ballen-
tine, I ask you to produce the documents called for.
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse on the grounds that to do so might tend
to incriminate me, and I also refuse by invoking all of my rights and
privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and the 14th
amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Ballentine, have you been furnished a copy of
the opening statement by Chairman Willis concerning these hearings ?
Mr. Ballentine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Weltner. Are you familiar with the contents thereof?
Mr. Ballentine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Ballentine, the committee does not accept your
refusal to comply with this request, and accordingly you are directed
and ordered to produce the documents called for at this time.
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse on all the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. If you desire it, you have the opportunity now to
present to the committee any reason why you are unable to comply
with the requirement of the subpena.
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. Continue, Mr Appell.
Mr. Appell. Paragraph 2 calls upon you to produce :
All books, records, documents, corresiwndence, and memoranda in yoiir posses-
sion, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your capacity as
Imperial Wizard of the Militant Knights of the Ku Klux Klan which the "Con-
stitution and Laws" of said organization authorize and require to be maintained
by you and any other oflBcer of said organization, the same being in your posses-
sion, custody or control.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 2, I ask you
to produce the documents called for.
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. The committee directs and orders you to produce the
documents at this point.
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Ballentine, when and where were you born?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do fo
might tend to incriminate me.
I also refuse by invoking all of my rights and privileges under the
1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and the 14th amendments to the Con-
stitution of the United States.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Appell, the witnesses previously called today
have all been associated with an organization known as the United
Florida Ku Klux Klan, and that organization is an outgrowth of the
combination of the Florida Ku Klux Klan and the United Ku Klux
Klan pursuant to an agreement in a convention in 1961 ; is that correct?
Mr. Appell. That is correct.
Mr. Weltner. This witness is called not as a member of that or-
ganization but as a member of the Militant Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan; is that correct?
Mr. Appell. That is correct.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3745
Mr. Weltner. And the subpena directs him in a representative
capacity as the Imperial Wizard of the Militant Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan to produce certain documents; is that correct?
Mr. Appell. That is correct.
I put it to you as a fact that you were born on October 12, 1918, in
Detroit, Michigan, and you reside at 3834 Notter and you are a jour-
neyman plumber.
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Ballentine, I put it to you as a fact, and ask you
to affirm or deny the fact, that you held membership in Robert. E.
Lee Klavern No. 508 of the United Florida Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Ballentine, do you know Warren Henry Folks
who operates a barbershop in Jacksonville, Florida ?
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Ballentine, on April 15, 1965, a meeting was held
at Warren Henry Folks' barbershop at 7 North Hogan Street in Jack-
sonville, Florida, at which Mr. Folks mentioned that David Jones
was present there representing a new Klan organization calling it the
Militant Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and he advised those assembled
that the Imperial Wizard of this new Klan organization was Donald
J. Ballentine.
Were the announcements made at this meeting on April 15, 1965,
correct ?
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse to answer on all the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Ballentine, I put it to you as a fact that on July 21,
1965, that members of the Militant Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
burned a cross in front of the Seminole Hotel in Jacksonville, Florida.
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I put to you as a fact that on the night of Jime 20, 1965,
that members of the Militant Knights of the Ku Klux Klan attempted
to destroy by arson the residence of two Negroes residing in the
Jacksonville area. However, the fires were extinguished with very
little damage.
I put it to you as a fact that the members of the Militant Knights
did set fires to those homes.
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Ballentine, I put it to you as a fact that Gene
Foreman of Jacksonville, Florida, is the Grand Dragon of the Mili-
tant Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that Eobert J. Cornwall is the
exalted cyclops of Unit No. 1 which is located in the Springfield sec-
tion of Jacksonville.
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
3746 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Ballentine, the St. Petersburg, Florida, Times^ of
October 24, 1965, contains a story by Bob Stiff, Times staff State editor.
He refers to the Militant Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and to Gene
N. Foreman, its Grand Dragon, and reports that Mr. Foreman dis-
patched to Chairman Willis of this committee a telegram which reads
in part:
"Do yourself, the committee and the American taxpayers a favor — EXCLUDE
me and my Klan from your HATE list, because I wouldn't tell you anything
anyhow !"
Did you discuss with Mr. Foreman the dispatching of that telegram
to Congressman Willis ?
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
(Document marked "Donald Ballentine Exhibit No. 1" follows:)
Donald Ballentine Exhibit No. 1
[St. Petersburg, Fla., Times, Oct. 24, 1965]
FLORIDA REPORT
Ku Klux Klan Dragon
Seeks 'Militanf Knights
By BOB bTIFF j^^y ^^^ assigned for duty. Death alone will prevent me from
Times State Editor defending a distressed White brother, sister or child when mo-
Listing of the Militant Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of Jack- '^sfed. TrisnliaJ or physically attacked in my presence by one of
sonviUe by the House Committee on Un-American Activities Satan's two-legged Black Beasts or one of his brothers, the di-
has apparently disturbed Grand Dragon Gene N. Foreman abolical Jew whom I believe to be the heart - core -brains and
more than somewhat '^'^'•^f supporter of the International race - mixing Communist
,, . J. ,,..,,, , , TIC n T^j -n conspiracy, which I believe is designed for the ultimate pur-
He immediately fired off a telegram to U.S. Rep^ Edwin E. J^^ destroying the pure White Caucasian Race of which Al-
WiUis. committee chairman, saying: Do yourself the commit- ;;;■ ^^^ ^^^ blessed me to be a member."
tee and the American taxpayers a favor — EXCLUDE me and
my Klan from your HATE list, because 1 ^^^ IF THAT confusing bit of prose hasn't ruined the taste of
wouldn't tell you anything anyhow!" Capitali- ^Rj^^k -'>°"'" morning coffee, here are some of the 29 questions an ap-
zation is his. ^B^^^^fc plicant must answer:
Fnrppian says his group is picketing the mt W "Did you know that in America the Niggers have declared
federal building in Jacksonville daily with VV''^B war on the Whites?
signs demanding the FBI investigate Willis 1 iTy ..Are you aware of the fact that Klansmen are hated by
and his committee. MtWF Niggers, Jews & FBI?
Accompanying this information, Foreman l^fcaHt^ . ... . ,. « .»,.,...»
sent me a membership application for his Mill- V^PH| "^° y°" "^'^ ^«*'' ^'^Sers & aU Communist? (sic) If not
tant Knights. His card asks, "R-U- A WHITE ~ (AflH ~ I ""'• „ ,, . u „■ . . ,-u ,„
man? If so, prove it! Join today." ' '^IfWT^ "Do you own a gun? If So, what Kind and caliber?
In order to join, an applicant must sign an STIFF jp yOU think you are far removed from all this, you
oath, which includes these sentences: shouldn't. Klan rallies with armed security guards swaggering
"With my very life I will defend the time-honored Consti- around are being held all over Florida these days. There was
tution of the United States of America as interpreted by the one in Citrus County last weekend and another near Brandon in
Grand Dragon of this Order and-or other officers to whom I Hillsborough County last night.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stiff reports that Gene Foreman stated that the
Militant Knights of the Ku Klux Klan were picketing the Federal
Building in Jacksonville daily with signs demanding that the FBI
investigate Willis and his committee.
Was this picketing going on by members of the Militant Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr, Stiff reprints an oath which is contained in an
application of the Militant Knights of the Ku Klux Klan which reads :
"With my very life I will defend the time-honored Constitution of the United
States of America as interpreted by the Grand Dragon of this Order and-or
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3747
other officers to whom I may be assigned for duty. Death alone will prevent
me from defending a distressed White brother, sister or child when molested,
insulted or physically attacked in my presence by one of Satan's two-legged
lilack Beasts or one of his brothers, the diabolical Jew whom I believe to be
instead of hard-core it reads —
heart-core-hrains and c'hief supporter of the international race-mixing Commu-
nist conspiracy, which I believe is designed for the ultimate purpose of destroy-
ing the pure White Caucasian Race of which Almighty God has blessed me
to be a member."
Mr. Ballentine, can you advise the committee as to what interpre-
tations of the time-honored Constitution you and the Grand Dragon
have made to be followed by the Militant Knights?
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Weltner. Is that provision in the oath and required to be taken
by members of the Militant Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Ballentine, this cross that was burned in front of
the Seminole Hotel was about 2i/^ to 3 feet tall, wrapped in burlap,
soaked in gasoline, but placed inside of the burlap was 25 or 30 .32-cali-
ber cartridges, 9 of which actually fired during the burning of that
cross.
What was the purpose of placing the cartridges inside the burlap
of the cross?
Mr. Ballentine. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Did the Militant Knights of the Ku Klux Klan give
any concern as to the innocent people who might be on the street and
who might be struck by these bullets as they exploded ?
Mr, Ballentine. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. How can you dedicate yourself to the protection of
the white race when you put a cross in the street which can very
easily injure those people that you are dedicated to protect?
Mr. Weltner. The witness will not be required to answer that
question before this hearing.
Mr. Appell. I have no further questions to ask of this witness.
Mr. Weltner. There being no further questions by the staff, Mr.
Ballentine, I will advise you that at this point you have the oppor-
tunity to present any matter that you feel might be relevant to this
inquiry.
This is not a question, but it is an opportunity which is afforded at
this time.
The witness is excused.
Mr. Stoner. Is he and all of the other witnesses excused this morn-
ing, permanently excused ?
Mr. Weltner. All witnesses are permanently excused, including
Mr. Ballentine, except Mr. Huett, who, as the Chair announced, is
not excused.
Call your next witness, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. Leon Aspinwall.
Mr. Weltner. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give
in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Aspinwall. I do.
3748 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
TESTIMONY OF LEON ASPINWALL, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
J. B. STONER
Mr. Appell. State your full name for the record, Mr. Aspinwall.
Mr. Aspinwall. Leon Aspinwall.
Mr. Appell. That is spelled A-s-p-i-n-w-a-1-1?
Mr. Aspinwall. That is correct.
Mr. Appell. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Aspinwall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Counsel identify himself for the record.
Mr. Stoner. J. B. Stoner, attorney at law, Marion Building, Au-
gusta, Georgia.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Aspinwall, are you appearing before the commit-
tee today in accordance with a subpena served upon you at 639 Emona
Street, Jacksonville, Florida, on October 2Y, 1965 ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Aspinwall. Yes, sir; it is true, except for the address which
is wrong. It is 651.
Mr. Appell. 651.
Mr. Aspinwall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Aspinwall, were you presented a copy of the
chairman's opening statement of October 1965 and are you familiar
with the contents thereof ?
Mr. Aspinwall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Aspinwall, the subpena served upon you con-
tained an attachment, and under the terms of the subpena you are com-
manded to bring with you and to produce records called for in the
attachment, paragraph 1, reading:
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the Invisible Empire,
United Klans, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of America, Inc., also known as the
United Klans of America, Inc., Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, and aflSliated or-
ganizations, namely, the Alabama Rescue Service, and the Florida Rescue Ser\'-
ice (Florida Realm, United Klans of America) and Klavern #2, Realm of Florida,
United Klans of America, Inc., in your possession, custody or control, or main-
tained by you or available to you as Grand Klabee, Realm (State) of Florida
and Exalted Cyclops, Klavern #2 Realm of Florida of the Invisible Empire.
United Klans, knights of the Ku Klux Klan of America, Inc., also known as the
United Klans of America, Inc., Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 1, Mr. Aspin-
wall, I ask you to produce the documents called for.
Mr. Aspinwall. I refuse on the grounds that to do so might tend
to incriminate me.
I also refuse by invoking all of my rights and privileges under the
1st, 4tli, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th amendments to the Constitu-
tion of the United States of America.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Aspinwall, the committee does not accept your
grounds for refusing to produce the documents, and you are ordered
and directed to produce them.
Mr. Aspinwall. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Paragraph 2 calls upon you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your pos-
session, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your capacity
as Grand Klabee, Realm (State) of Florida and Exalted Cyclops Klavern #2,
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3749
Realm of Florida of the United Klans of America, Inc., Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan, which the "Constitution and Laws" of said organization authorize and
require to be maitained by you and any other officer of said organization, the
same being in your possession, custody or control.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 2, I ask you
to produce the documents called for.
Mr. AspiNWALL. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner, Mr. Aspinwall, the committee orders and directs you
to produce the documents at this time as described in paragraph 2 of
the subpena.
Mr. Aspinwall. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Aspinwall, when and where were you born ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Aspinwall. I refuse to answer on the groiinds that to do so
might tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse by invoking all of
my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th,
and 14th amendments to the Constitution of the United States of
America.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact, born March 6, 1937, at Offer-
man, Georgia; finished 1 year of high school; served in the Army
from September 1954 to 1957, and that you were released from duty
receiving an undesirable discharge.
Mr. Aspinwall. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Aspinwall, in December of 1964, I put it to you
as a fact that you were appointed by the United — Grand Dragon of
the United Klans of America, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Incor-
porated, as the grand klabee or treasurer of the Realm of Florida
of that organization.
I ask you to affirm or deny the fact.
Mr. Aspinwall. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that in April of 1965 you
became the exalted cyclops of Klavern No. 2 of the United Klans of
America, which Klavern is located in Jacksonville, Florida.
Mr. Aspinwall. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that in October of 1965 you
and other members of the United Klans of America met and formed
a new organization known as the United Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan of America, Incorporated.
Mr. Aspinwall. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. At the time you were the grand klabee of the Realm of
Florida for the United Klans of America, I put it to you as a fact
that Weldon Don Cothran was the Grand Dragon, that John Everett
Harps was the kligrapp, that Lloyd Munlyn Williams was the great
titan, that Al Massey was the grand klokard, that Lawrence Crews
was the grand kludd, that Ray Peacock was the grand kladd, that Emot
Test on- was the grand klarogo, that George Ross was the grand
klexter, that Warren Hansen was the grand klokan and that Jack
Dean was the grand night-hawk and tliat all of these individuals are
from Jacksonville, Florida.
59-222 O— 67— pt. 5 18
3750 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. AspiNWALL. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that Warren Hansen replaced
Joe Bedford as the grand kligrapp and that on March 27, 1965, Joe
Bedford was appointed by the Grand Dragon, Don Cothran, to be the
Imperial Klexter replacing Robert Korman of Florida who was
elected to that position in September of 19i64 at a klonvokation at the
Dinkler-Tutwiler Hotel in Birmingham, Alabama.
Mr. AspiNWALL. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. As the grand klabee of the United Klan, are you
acquainted with the fact that the United Klans of America maintains
a Klavern in Wildwood, Florida, known as the Wildwood Sports-
man Club and that the authorized signators to their bank account
were officers Eldon C. Stone, Alfred W. Knowles, and Cody McGowan.
Mr. AsFiNWALL. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
(Document marked "Leon Aspinwall Exhibit No. 1" follows:)
Leon Aspinwall Exhibit No. 1
WILDWOOD SPORTSMAN ;UJ> (2 of 3 »ifri«tur«8 Ptqulri
• on T.., TRAHS« 'i-iO-^ or kUSINCSS WITH
Bank of Wildwood. Wildwood. Fla.
In raot'vtng itein for M0owt or oonaet'O's, t^ i Sir. icti ar'ty u dsa^Sitor"! latfmcttng aovnt and aHMMK
no r»«pon»!Bilit)r Myond th« ■(•reiM ai (Ju9 iar» i ts'-'j ar» cf<i<'.'> : sui lect lo '"inal pcymant m CMll mr
»o(v»nt ofediti. fivi Sartk wt.i not b« liiois ■ /■ •■■*,'■ v n«gi,g»r,e« <)< -tj uiy ^siectej co>FM|H>ni>«Rtt n«i tar
)MWM m trans-t, tna AM^ ">« ."••oorxlent »> t***,-!.. ,-.» n jt c* lia!)!* •«o»t>' 'or .ts own n«Qlig*nM. Xhm Bank
ir It* corrtspondaits rnav Mod items dir*atl« •^o'..y. tc «ny ti'^t. incijd>n'; t^s piyor. an<f atawt >ta draft
•r Of»dit u cond'tcm* »«yrrv«"t in li«u «( aM>i -«, cM«r\;« ti»cli «ny itsn »t »ny hnm b0lor% fl'«l Mywiant,
urtwUt^raturnad or not. auo any it*m d'awn on t t &ank rtoc yood ■( etoa* u( dushwm Of day da^aait«4.
Pi^ Srrvlt« Chsrcr. This Account wh« i>e> «f tivc or tri&rtiw tK*!) b« fub.ect Co t^ B<iiifc'a ti titit
CK&cycl urt'i.r tit ruie» now c&utio^ or %» n»«y t-» ««ic,)i<7l or amen.iati.
•OOUCEO BY
Mr. Appell. I ask you did you know that the Wildwood Klavern
also had an auxiliary known as the Wildwood Sewing Auxiliary and
that the officers of that auxiliary were Norma Jean Knowles and
Alice M. Andrews?
Mr. Aspinwall. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. As the grand klabee of the United Klans of America,
I ask you if you knew of the existence of the United Klans of Amer-
ica Klavern at Summerfield, Florida, known as the Summerfield Fel-
lowship Club, whose officers were G. A. Newsom, Howard . Diet,
and Jack L. Gwynn ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3751
Mr, AspiNWALL. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I ask you as klabee of the organization if you possess
knowledge of the Summerfield Klavern having an auxiliary known as
the Summerfield Sewing Auxiliary with Jerry Newsom and Vera M.
Newsom as the officers of the auxiliary ?
Mr. AspiNWALL. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Did the United Klans of America have a Klavern in
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, which was under the exalted cyclops of
Charles B. Riddlehoover ?
Mr. AspiNWALL. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Because of the fact that the membership of the United
Klans of America were dissatisfied with the handling of funds by the
Grand Dragon by their belief that he was not a capable leader, was
there a meeting held in October 1965 at which Charles Riddlehoover
was elected the Grand Dragon of the United Klans of America for
the Realm of Florida ?
Mr. AspiNWALL. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. When apparently the Imperial Wizard Shelton would
not accede to the wishes of the membership and replace Mr. Cothran
with Mr. Riddlehoover, was there held an election or convention,
rather, at which the dissenting factions of the United Klans of Amer-
ica voted to create a new organization known as the United Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan of America, Incorporated ?
Mr. AspiNWALL. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Were you appointed a titan for the new Klan organi-
zation, the United Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Incorporated ?
Mr. AspiNWALL. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Aspinwall, have you ever engaged in activities
on behalf of the United Klans of America in the State of Texas ?
Mr. Aspinwall. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions to ask
of this witness.
Mr. Weltner. Are there any questions ?
Mr. Buchanan. No questions.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Aspinwall, you have an opportunity to submit
any matter that you might deem relevant at this point.
There being no response, before excusing the witness, Mr. Appell,
the two Florida organizations heretofore considered, the United
Florida Ku Klux Klan and the Militant Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan, this witness is the first witness who has been associated with
theUK:A.
Mr. Appell. This is true.
Mr. Weltner. The witness is excused.
It is now 12 :30, and the committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock
this afternoon.
3752 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
(Subcommittee members present at time of recess: Representatives
Weltner and Buchanan.)
(Whereupon, at 12 :30 p.m. Wednesday, February 23, 1966, the sub-
committee recessed, to reconvene at 2 p.m. the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 1966
(The subcommittee reconvened at 2 p.m., Hon. Charles L. Weltner
presiding.)
(Subcommittee members present: Representatives Weltner and
Buchanan.)
Mr. Weltner. The subcommittee will come to order.
Call your next witness, please, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. I would like to call Mr. Jack Grantham.
Mr. Weltner. Stand and raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this hearing
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Grantham. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF JACK HAROLD GRANTHAM, SR., ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, J. B. STONER
Mr. Weltner. Will counsel step up here to the bench, please ?
Mr. Appell. Mr. Grantham, will you state your full name for the
record ?
Mr. Grantham. Jack Harold Grantham.
Mr. Appell. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Grantham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Will counsel identify himself for the record?
Mr. Stoner. J. B. Stoner, attorney at law, Marion Building, Au-
gusta, Georgia.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Grantham, are you appearing here today in accord-
ance with a subpena served upon you ?
Mr. Grantham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. On February 1, 1966, at Miami, Florida?
Mr. Grantham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Grantham, the subpena served upon you contained
an attachment, which was made a part of the subpena, and under the
conditions of the subpena you were directed to bring with you and
produce documents set forth in the attachment.
Paragraph 1 reads :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the Invisible Empire,
United Klans, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of America, Inc., also known as the
United Klans of America, Inc., Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, and affiliated orga-
nizations; namely, the Alabama Rescue Service, or Florida Rescue Service, in
your possession, custody or control, or maintained by you or available to you
as present or former Exalted Cyclops, Miami Klavern, Realm of Florida, of the
Invisible Empire, United Klans, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of America, Inc.,
also knovpn as the United Klans of America. Inc., Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 1, Mr. Gran-
tham, I ask you to produce the documents called for.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3753
Mr. Grantham. I refuse on the grounds to do so might tend to
incriminate me, and I also refuse by invoking all of my rights and
13rivileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th 9th, 10th, and 14th amend-
ments to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Grantham, have you received a copy of the open-
ing statement of Chairman Willis ?
Mr. Grantham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Weltner. Are you familiar with the contents of it?
Mr. Grantham. Yes, sir.
Mr. Weltner. The committee advises you that we do not accept
your grounds for refusal to produce the documents, and accordingly
you are hereby directed and ordered to produce the documents called
for in paragraph 1 of your subpena.
Mr. Grantham. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Grantham, paragraph 2 calls upon you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your pos-
session, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your capacity
as present or former Exalted Cyclops, Miami Klavern, Realm of Florida, of the
United Klans of America, Inc., Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, which the "Con-
stitution of Laws" of said organization authorize and require to be maintained
by you and any other officer of said organization, the same being in your posses-
sion, custody or control.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 2, Mr. Gran-
tham, I ask you to produce the books and records called for.
Mr. Grantham. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. The committee directs and orders you to produce
the documents called for in paragraph 2.
Mr. Grantham. I refuse to answer on all grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. At this point, you have a privilege at this time to
state any reasons you have for not producing them.
Mr. Grantham. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Paragraph 3 of your subpena calls upon you to
produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the United Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan in your ix)ssession, custody or control, or maintained by or
available to you as present or former Grand Klabee (Treasurer) and Exalted
Cyclops of Miami Klavem AKA Dade Fellowship Club of the United Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 3, I ask you
to produce the books and records called for.
Mr. Grantham. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. The committee orders you to produce the documents
called for in paragraph 3.
Mr. Grantham. I refuse on all the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Grantham, did you, in 1965, become a member of
the United Klans of America, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Grantham. I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so
might tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to answer by invoking
all of my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th,
10th, and 14th amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Grantham, I show you a document which reports
on a meeting held October 10, 1965, at the Holiday Inn conference room
at Fort Pierce, Florida.
3754 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
This document summarizes the dissension within the United Klans
of America and reports that after the Grand Dragon for the Realm
of Florida, Don Cothran, had scheduled a meeting at that place and
on that date for the purpose of electing State officers, that without
giving due notice to him of the people in attendance at that rally,
the Grand Dragon canceled the meeting.
In the absence of the Grand Dragon and with the delegates as-
sembled there was elected as Grand Dragon for the UKA, Realm of
Florida, C. B. Riddlehoover.
I ask you to look at that document and I ask you if that factually
summarizes that meeting ?
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Grantham. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
(Document marked "Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 1" appears on pp.
3755-S757.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Grantham, in November of 1965, were you stopped
by agents of the Dade County Sheriff's Department driving an auto-
mobile owned and registered to C. B. Riddlehoover?
Mr. Grantham. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that the document exhibited
to you was obtained by the Dade County sheriff from that automobile.
Mr. Grantham. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Weltner. That document was obtained in what manner Mr.
Appell?
Mr. Appell. It was obtained by the Dade County sheriff from the
automobile of Mr. Riddlehoover after the sheriff's department stopped
the vehicle on traffic violation when it was being operated by the
witness.
I hand you now a handwritten document of many pages dated
October 24, 1965, headed "Minutes Of Meeting In Melbourne,
Florida." '
I ask you if these are the minutes of a meeting called for the purpose
of disaffiliating with the United Klan of America and re-creating those
delegates present under the United Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of
America, Incorporated?
Mr. Weltner. While the witness is examining that document,
have the first document marked "Grantham Exhibit 1." Wlien the
reporter has an opportunity to mark the present exhibit, mark it
"Grantham Exhibit No. 2."
If you have further exhibits to show to the witness, have them
marked serially.
Mr. Appell. Is the document that I handed you, to the best of
your knowledge, a true and factual reporting of the minutes of the
meeting held on October 24, 1965 ?
Mr. Grantham. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
(Document marked "Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 2." See pp. 3759-
3768.)
Mr. Appell. On the second from last page of the document which
I handed you, under a heading "State Officers," there appears the
identity of individuals elected to various offices. Grand Dragon,
Brother Riddlehoover; king kleagle. Brother Massey; Grand Klaliff,
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3755
Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 1
01 mis DAI 0/ OCX, 10, IJtJ >'Di. 3
FORT ?XKlC£, FLA. (UOLILAX IM (Xiiii'UixSiCE WOU)
Drotbor Uasaey aoked i^at UnlLa wero rcprvson^ud at this Beating. Ihcy «oro
MoIboiTie; Ulaal, /t. Lauderdale cad Jacksoir/ille* It «&a doloraiaed that
no Onltts traro olficiolly notified that thia mi^otlati was cancelled. Brother
Twlet oaid that Brother Zbla had roceivod a phoco call Troa tbo Grand Dragoa /C^a!^-A>;_7
or Florid^ that tbia aeoting was callod o££. Ho nas the otdy ono roceirin^ this .
notification. No reason ime given to him for iho cancellat;ion. It v&s dotor-
minod ihat the electi(»i for Grand Dragon of Florida nas legally carried out
end that this election vas to ba at 10 A. HI, this date (Oct. 10, 1965.) This
notion for election took place at the Holiday Inn in Uclbomu en the 25th of
Soptombcr, I965 and vas made iij Brother Peacock and waa seconded by Brother
Biddlohoovor and vaa parsed uoaninoualy (12 Officers proaent.) It vae further
stipulated that no one yas officially notified 1:^ Brother iiholton that this
election CCS officially called off. Iho L. C. of Jackjonvillo statvd that he
never received any uoi'd In reference to the nootlng being cancelled. It vas
further stated that no official Rord ^aa ^ivcn for reason the rcllieo VGre called
off in Lccoburg, Dade City and Clce^x^^.aior, Florida. Tbo £. C. from Jaukjcnvillo,
Florida stated xhay still bad their Charter. Uc was aoked by a Klcnuci4i if it
tia^ziH pulled Uua to non-pu^inont of dues u:d lack of neabcrship. Brother Joe of
Jacksonville, Florida stated that Charter vuc cappo&ed to have boon pulled but
it «as Illegal and that bubting of an Officer vae illegal. Brother Uassoy said
that Charter «as gi7on back and that they had 90 days to build back up to required
aieabership. Brother tiaesey statod that there kqs a Ela vcm operating in his oun
back yard and him being Kleaglo had not been notified. Brother Uasscy said thare
vas too ffluch rocking of the boat and uncertainty nmong Slavems and this nas due
to poor leadership. Ho Stated wo are now in Ft, Pierce for the purpose of holding
an election for Grand Dragon of Florida. That Brother Don Cothran was supposed to
3756 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 1 — Continued
bo b«re at 10 A« 11* this dale Xor this oicolloa which ha had toUmI sor falaaotf
c^ th* 2Sth or SoptcBtUsr at tbo Holiday Iim In Uolbounio, riorida* Brother
Cothrsa w%m hvro at tha Holi(l^gr Ixm oo Saturday but had chocked out 1$ slsutea
prior to our arrival on Saturday eroalng at it2i P.a* It «&o Turthor stipulated '
that the date Tor this elcutloo wus overuuo and that it «as coactitutioiui 1 to
hold it* It V&3 QtaCod that this olcclion v^s being held dtko to iho poor Icadop-
flhipi poor notiTicaiioa and o£ the unccn^wiUii/Lanol mmnar in Bhi(Ji firothar Cothrsa
had nm ovor aome of tho oiricGrs* It n&t eta tod oad agrood Ui>OQ Ijy Slaneaoa that
it ia tholr belief that ao aeabor am. ho run ovsr uodor tho constitutioa unless a
hoarloa or trial is hold or that he io notUiod ^ CertiXied Uail or by a letter
preoented to th«a \3f a. Klfiniirwn in good oUuidin^ end that none of this hod boaa
ddasa Orother Poacook eta tod that ho had b«on coniacted by dlfi:ar«Dt pereciut
aoJcing whoa wo wore eoio^ to get a qok Crond Dragon oiid that if vo had a &e« Grand
Draesn that he ^oac assured o£ several nc« Uai'.o* Brother LcoB acid that hio Klavcni
hod practically nil droppod out due to poor laadcrshlp and discootuntaent* Brother
BedTord stated tho Grand Dragon hod oaJo the uuiteiscnt that he would run the State oT
Florida the way ho oaw lit end ho did not caro nho it htu't or nhc volkca out* Brother
BedTord node a sotion that so mako Uirothor Massey chainaan ol this aocting* Brother
Everovt Barpe eocouucd the laotion. lioCion carriod urar.iactuxly* Brothtir Tniat aekcd
if vo bad eD0U(;h doloi^atofi ^I'esijnt lo hold on olocxAaa* Bro.iicr Uajsey in^oraod
BroUior Ivist that Brother £holton hod b^Dc^ notlL'iod of this cloction and it sas caljr
voted on and paased uith tisti end place oi" clccticn siipiilatod. Brother Hiddlehoovor
stated that if we hold electico today liuit it diould be carried out in a buEinosslila
Banner and prouentcd to tho loporial VKizaid ma that ho hddself Tould (fo to *Tnh--.iifc
to seo hia ena proc^at hia with tho rusuita of Uie ol^ction. ilroihsr Svcxett Uaipo
Bode tho notion Uu^t wo hold on oloctlon* Uotion eocondod tqr firothor ?eacocic* Itotloa
hy Brother Syapecsx to oacnd aoticxi to oloctioa of Grand Drogcn only at this tico and
to eleot State Orficera oTter Brother Hiddlchuo/o; hod contacted Brother £hcltoa uhl
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S. 3757
Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 1 — Continued
ruErolts of Uio xostln^ bc:>«uat Uiua ^ls. cxs^lTlou* This swLlon ccconJsd ty
CroUior Luoo* UotioDo ptta»e<i. 17-1* tiro 'her /xdcraca b&Uo Uio oouloa th&t
BroUioi- PiiiOJleboovcr hr. notiir^t'^-i I'm tLc (ii-uid Dragon ot Florida, Koulco
&aixaut'.a l^j iii'oJ;,ei' loicU liroUxor hsan atido oo-wloa that noniaailona coau«
at tho 'ula&« iiotico socoadod ty Brochor I'jM.~Mck» Uotioa pasnsd unantaouiily*
Brother i-liridlehoovcr U)sti)£cd ua all and suld bo «aa bonox^ aod nould do alJL in
biu pc;:ar to uttko U19 Staui oX ^ioiiua go lorr.-urd. Kovloa bo close Boot,ins bgr
Srothcir .v'aii* Coccndcd \y Bro'Jior ;;/>u;;.>cn> iuotion carried ua^iiUiousJl;*
this is a coui^iiMtat.ict) i»2 Jio aiuutv:; ci rjl^^c^lcn held &t >i^ liolidoy Xim»
Con rcroaco Hsoii In jr't Picrto, ITlcrida cc the 10, ol Ocvoberj l-^b^ and cbicb
a!.Tiut3a :r9 ia Uio i/r«ceedic£; p:^c9 •
Si^odt
Rsb-^rt J *-^ui
A rlbur J. /i::;cU:i:aoa Jr«
Gco.oC ^* CcuiauA
Ucocr Ckjifida,
Ted avist
fU T..ii.t
Leca Aspimwall
Ccr&ld V. FcKlor
J* il. i3eui'cxti
Joaaa Uinor
2vtTGtt Rurpe
iiobr.rt F, fioothfe
Jto-vacad PiAccci:
JOu Sl.UlotlS
Jucjc uran'>.aaa
E» £♦ Gyupson
CJJ. fiiddleboover
3758 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
F. Stephens; klokard, J. Siddons; grand kludd, H. Canada; grand
kligrapp — and in this document it is spelled "if" — initial R., last
name White; the grand klabee, J. Grantham; the grand kladd, F.
Andrews; the grand klarogo, B. Roache; the grand night-hawk —
and hawk is spelled "H-a-w-k-e" — E. Harpe; the grand klexter and
chief security guard, T. Riddle; the northern titan, R. Peacock;
southern titan, B. Ryan ; north kleagle, J. Box ; north kleagle again,
E. C. Stone ; southern kleagle, a notation "To be appointed by Grand
Dragon" ; central kleagle, Leon Aspinwall, although in this document
it is spelled E-s-p-i-n-w-a-1-l-e; and central kleagle again, Norman
Carter.
Is this a. true representation of the oflScers elected for the newly
created KJnights of the Ku Klux Klan, Incorporated ?
Mr. Grantham. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. This document, Mr. Grantham, states that the group
was going to attempt to obtain a charter in the State of New York.
Was a charter ever obtained for the organization ?
Mr. Grantham. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Grantham, at the time the car which you were
operating was stopped, was there strapped to the door of the vehicle
an automatic revolver?
Mr. Grantham. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Can you tell the committee why a revolver was strapped
to the door of that vehicle ?
Mr. Grantham. I refuse to answer on all the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Is an automatic weapon a part of the uniform of a
Klansman ?
Mr. Grantham. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions to ask
of this witness.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Grantham, you have an opportunity to present
any points which you feel relevant at this point.
There being no response, this witness may be excused.
(Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 2, introduced on p. 3754, follows:)
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3759
Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 2
^AM^ ^^*>^^'(^ ^C'^^ycrt^ .X<4x^ ^-^^Z^ yO.^ ZX^ Z>&^ U^-<J^'
3760 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 2 — Continued
-<-^
l»f/jucX ,.^-^zl*/ ^*>-*tV^^^ tx-^cZi^ ^L'y^^ 0 ,.gi-<^«-*>» >/>-^:^
^S^#^gCt/ ^j^^^/ * «»c^ .4M4^ .^^^2^ ZX^,^ coyl^'i^
i
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE TJ.S. 3761
Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 2— Continued
*-•, >fc^ ^JUuc.^*^
(^(^.4^-,^ Zl^Cu -T/AT/^." ^ ^l.4U.aA^ .aU<f*XjjUJ ^.Li.yy ^^Z-
^;?^Ad«»*^ y^^u^ ,^4*^ ^.^^£-*.<^ ^X^ ^:^^!t-«-^ ,<>,*.**^ ,.<sy6*-t«**/
..<t^ ^^ yt)UcM^
y
3762 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 2 — Continued
^jt^vt- /^^^i>c^ .<a--**.c*v*> C^^i- ^-^Z*^. ,^.<^ ^:X^
CJi-^'^
-■■^■i*. .L/^a^t^-<jL ,^
^^<f-*^^^^ dc^tty^*^*^^pu,^^iLm<^ _^ZX0 ^ju^ ^^'-**^
^</c*.c^/ .^0<J^yn4>ye^ .<A^>^^^ >^^^^ /^gcW'^^ '/<.«-^*tf^t^
TJYJt, <t*<^4
.•<*><^-
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX E:LAN IN THE U.S. 3763
Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 2— Continued
^^fL^n^ ^^$^ ^ ■<^i».aj -'■^.^^ ^U-eM.^ <:l^«M-i.<^ Z^ ^^l^**-'^ , "T^A-*-*^
^>*-^-^5?*^ --«^»<«^/i»^ ^^^t-*-**^a>4 -^^<,>«-Z5Jc»-*^/'t^,d:^<<**<.«^
_Oi>T 4'i'i«ini< • ^yir* - -^ ■^P^ /^ ^ an rr /<-i f .//i^in.f <-^^./^ ^
3764 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 2 — Continued
^1*5al*u 9r7/LA^^ AU^^^^CXSi .4^i0<^ jeUrsJt.
>''\/^^aA^.
^JS-^ttSB^i^-^
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3765
Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 2 — Continued
^ --<^^ ^W^^^O^,^ ~2^:Lt^-t*^^ /Sc^^-^^^^
^.^-^eMc^^ ^^J^, ^^ ^7:^iC. ^3^^,.^,<.^.U.u..^
yo*^ ZXi^ ^^:^^^ y:^^c<y^^^ cU^<X/ ^^ --.<iv^l<,*^^pcil-
f «<fcC**
iit4^m^
59-222 O— 67— pt. 5 19
3766 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 2 — Continued
" /f^/}fZ^(rC /' iS Ifo/iC/^^
't
K
J.f0d FsflJU ULA*-"-^
-"^^ A
^^^TAAi- /rl^^/ff- ff j/^ (!^A t.r£A^
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3767
Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 2— Continued
JcuJ^-^^^^^^^ - i^'^1 ^J^^"-^^-
If /♦ '^
/I'
i
3768 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Jack Grantham Exhibit No. 2 — Continued
^ fS'^o S^^^/^ ^s^JTJ^pj^ Jiarjtje^
Mr. Weltner. You may call your next witness, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, I would like to call Mr, Charles B
Riddlehoover.
Mr. Weltner. Stand and raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this hearing
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. RiDDLEHoovER. I do.
Mr. Weltner. Be seated, please.
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES BAKER RIDDLEHOOVER, ACCOMPANIED
BY COUNSEL, J. B. STONER
Mr. Appell. Mr. Riddlehoover, would you state your full name for
the record ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3769
Mr. RiDDLEHOOVER. Charles Baker Riddlehoover.
Mr. Appell. That is R-i-d-d-1-e-h-o-o-v-e-r ?
Mr. Riddlehoover. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Riddlehoover. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Counsel, please identify himself for the record.
Mr. Stoner. J. B. Stoner, attorney at law, Marion Building, Au-
gusta, Georgia.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Riddlehoover, are you appearing here today in
accordance with a subpena served upon you on January 28, 1966, at
3111 Houston Street, Fort Lauderdale, Florida?
Mr. Riddlehoover. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Riddlehoover, the subpena served upon you con-
tained an attachment, which was made a part of the subpena, and
under the conditions of the subpena you were ordered to bring with
you and to produce documents set forth in the attachment.
Before I read it to you, Mr. Riddlehoover, were you supplied a copy
of the chairman's opening statement of October 1965 and are you
familiar with its contents ?
Mr. Riddlehoover. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Paragraph 1 reads :
AH books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to
the organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the Invisible
Empire, United Klans, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of America, Inc., also
known as the United Klans of America, Inc., Knights of the Ku Klux Klan,
and affiliated organizations, namely, the Alabama Rescue Service or Florida
Rescue Service in your possession, custody or control, or maintained by you
or available to you as present or former Grand Titan, Realm of Florida of the
Invisible Empire, United Klans, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of America, Inc.,
also known as the United Klans of America, Inc., Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 1, I ask you
to produce the documents called for.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse on the grounds that to do so might
tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse by invoking all of my rights
and privileges under the 1st, Itli, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th
amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Weltner. The committee does not accept your refusal to pro-
duce the documents, and accordingly you are ordered to produce the
documents called for.
Mr. Riddlehoo\'er. I refuse on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. The committee will give to you this opportunity
to give it any reason you have for the inability to produce the docu-
ments.
If you have any reason for being unable to produce them, you have
the opportunity at tliis time to make those reasons known.
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Paragraph 2 calls upon you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your pos-
session, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your capacity
as present or former Grand Titan, Realm of Florida of the United Klans of
America, Inc., Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, which the "Constitution and Laws"
of said organization authorize and require to be maintained by you and any
other officer of said organization, the same being in your possession, custody
or control.
3770 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 2, I ask you
to produce the documents called for.
Mr. RiDDLEHoovER. I ref usc on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr, Weltner. You are directed and ordered to produce the docu-
ments called for in paragraph 2.
Mr. RiDDLEHOOVER. I refusc on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Paragraph 3 calls upon you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to the
organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the United Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan in your possession, custody or control, or maintained by
you or available to you as present or former Grand Dragon of the United
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 3, I ask you
to produce the documents called for.
Mr. RiDDLEHOOVER. I refusc on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Weltner. You are directed by the committee to produce the
documents called for in paragrapli 3.
Mr. RiDDLEHOOVER. I rcfusc on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Riddlehoover, in April of 1965, did you become a
member of the United Klans of America ?
Mr. RiDDLEHOOVER. I Tcfusc to auswcr on the grounds that to do so
might tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to answer by invoking
all of my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th,
10th, and 14th amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Riddlehoover, records obtained from The First
National Bank in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, relating to the account of the
Alabama Rescue Service, which is the account under which the im-
perial account of the United Klans of America is maintained, reflects
that money was received into that account from the Broward Fellow-
ship Club using Post Office Box No. 6043 in Davie, Florida.
I hand you several documents of the Broward Fellowship Club and
an application for the post office box, and ask you if the signature of
applicant on the post office box application is your signature ?
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. RiDDLEHOOVER. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, I ask that these documents be marked
"Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Weltner. Let the reporter mark them at this time.
(Documents marked "Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 1." Appli-
cation for post office box and money order appear on p. 3771.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Riddlehoover, on October 28, 1965, was your vehi-
cle, operated by Jack Grantham, stopped by the Dade County Sheriff's
Department ?
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. Were there in that vehicle at that time documents
relating to the United Klans of America and the United Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan, Incorporated ?
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, through the cooperation of the Dade
County Sheriff's Department, the staff has obtained the documents
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 1
3771
P.O.B« 601*3, D»Tl«, n«rlda
APPLICATION FOR POST-OFFICE BOX . iHL^t leP.^^
J^J./.^..^
Tba undanJgBMi berebj applic* for tbe om of a boi in Um po*t oCe* at
and agree*
to comply wiih tba poatal rcfulaiiona and rutea relaiive to the renlioK and nae of poat .office bozea.
If the bni ia ranted for a corporation, tbe applicant should write on the linaa below the name of ihe
corporation: if for a firm, tbe name of tbe firm and tbe fuJI naoM of eacb of ita iMaibera wboae mail ia
to be placed in tbe boi.
of applicant X .^^^..;;^tiucii^»uLCrfn^^^
of bmiaiii ,<y t /^<--^-'*-^
Signal lire
Character
Buaineaa addreaa ./^i^n^f.^.
Reaideoce mA6nt»-2/.l.l--7^jL-<
Referencea
... Zone No. .
... Zone No. .
•po la— wua-a
.£i_-jR
7 — ELEVEK STORES -.-.m-.
KNOW rewn
CASH ONLY
* Mcouaac
■• AVMLAaLt
«■ GOM^AMT ACUa ra ,AV AT M aUMSWAV, Nnv TOW, N. V.
/jt — R-i.c^L
THE
SUM
OF
WJIf M <!6trf 4*"" "*
3w^^S*''®7Isr>o5!Octs
rni ■■nngjCMC
^-/^^
..£C
DO KOT CAAH IF AU
■TCTCP
^^^£
^
i:aooo"Q00 5i:>aia «?oia5E»t«,Q5»'
which were in this vehicle, and I shall now question Mr. Riddlehoover
with respect to them.
Mr. Weltner. Ask him if that document, Exhibit No. 1, was in his
car at that time and place, as well as these exhibits,
Mr. Appell. Mr. Riddlehoover, I show you Grantham Exhibit
No. 1, a report on a meeting of the United Klans of America, Octo-
ber 10, 1965, which in effect summarizes itself by the fact that you
were elected by those assembled to be the new Grand Dragon of the
United Klans of America, and Grantham Exhibit No. 2 which are
the minutes of a meeting held in Melbourne, Florida, October 24, 1965,
at which the delegates assembled disaffiliated with the United Klans
of America and voted to constitute themselves as a new organization
known as the United Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Incorporated.
3772 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Were these two documents, Grantham Exhibits 1 and 2, in your
vehicle ?
(Documents handed to witness.)
Mr. Weltner. The witness, having had the opportunity to examine
the documents, Mr. Appell, put the question to him once again.
Mr. Appell. Were those documents in your vehicle ?
Mr. RiDDLEHOOVER. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Riddlehoover, I have a mimeographed document
which is captioned "THE FOLLOWING MUST BE EMPHATI-
CALLY CARRIED OUT," and it relates to initiation fee of Klans-
men and the division of that money between the State and the Klavern.
It states :
STATE DUES GOES TO— P.O. BOX 9472, Lake Forest Station, Jacksonville,
Fla.
DUBS TO PROVINCE # 3-^Mr. GHABLBS RIDDLEHOOVER, 3111 Hous-
ton Street, Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
The second document is headed "FROM THE OFFICE OF THE
GRAND DRAGON," and it also deals with the division of initiation
fees.
Initiation fees shall be $15.25. Ten dollars stays in the Klavern per
man. Three dollars of this initiation fee up to 25 men go to the kleagle
of that province, the kleagle being the organizer, $2.25 paid to the
State. Reinstatement dues, $10.25 ; $2.00 to be paid to the kleagle by
the Grand Dragon ; $2.50 paid to the State, and the remainder staying
in the Klavern. Monthly dues, $2.00 per man unless the Klavern as
a body votes for it to be more. Imperial dues, 50 cents per man goes
to Mr. Shelton, ^5 cents goes to the State, 25 cents goes to the titan of
each province, which will be paid by the Grand Dragon.
The third document in this gi'oup that I will hand you and mark it
"Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 2" is a "KLIGRAPP'S MONTHLY
REPORT."
I hand you those documents, Mr. Riddlehoover, and ask you if they
were contained within your vehicle ?
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
(Documents marked "Charles Riddlehoover Exhibits Nos. 2-A
through 2-C," respectively, appear on pp. 3773-3775.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Riddlehoover, I now hand you a series of docu-
ments, the first dated June 14, 1965, signed Don Cothran, Grand
Dragon, which states in effect that this letter is to inform all Klans-
men of the UKA, Incorporated, Realm of Florida, that Klansman
Charles Riddlehoover of Fort Lauderdale has been appointed to the
office of titan of southern Florida.
The second document, dated July 9, 1965, addressed to "All Units,"
salutation "Klansmen" :
Brother Rip Riddlehoover is now Klaliff in the State of Florida. Brother
Osborne is Titan of Southern Florida.
Another document, dated August 26, 1965, signed Don Cothran,
Grand Dragon, reads as follows :
At this time I would like to call too [sic] your attention that Frank Stephens
of Ocala, Fla. and Al Massey of Jacksonville, Fla. will organize under the di-
rection of Brother Charles Riddlehoover.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3773
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 2-A
. ' THB FOLLOWINQ HUST BS EUPHATICALLT CARBIID OUTt
Ih« initiation fee ot • klansoan is $15«25« Of this emAunt, $2*50
will CO to the state— *2. 50 gcee to the province office in Port
lauderdale, Fla. The remainder >dll p;o to the klavem and kleagle*
The reinstatement fee is $10.25. Of this omonut $5*00 stays in
the klavem and the ranalnder goes to the state.
The Initiation fee of a lady In the Ladles AuxHiasry is tf7*^5*
Of this amount ^r2.25 will reniRln In the klavem— $2.50 will go
to the state end ;ii>2.50 will go to the provinoe in Fort I^uderdals,
Pla. Dues Trt.ll reraaln the ssme — ■f2.00 a month, unless the Eo
sees fit vjlth the permlcson of the body to make it more.
FOR KEli C'LYt Fifty cents per men t^II co to the National office
regardiesE whether they ate charter stren^rht or not. Twenty-five
cents v.'lll come to the st-ate end twenty-five cents will go to the
province In Fort louderdale, Fls.
All donr.tlons that are talren at the mill as In the state of Florida
will be divided betrecb Province #1 and Province #3 for the puiposs
of securlnc literature. Let me tenilnd you provinoe #3 thct you
be held rceponsible for ybur own lltartture. Province #1 will bs •
held r^sDoncible for literature lor pro vice nl and Province ^2.
Ef.ch nrovlnce vrlll be held responsible for their own security
guards. I.'o security guard will go Into another area without the
permission of the Titan.
Let me ra^tnd you also, tliat If Kr. CJielton comes to the State
of Florida to speak, that there v.lll not be Just one province
there, but, the state as a whole will be there under the direction
of the Grand Dragon.
At this time I would also like to reralnd you that this past week-snd ^
in Vlldwood, Pla, I gave two orders that was not carried out. ■*'
Ho. 1— That the first speakers would be allowed 15 minutes each*
No.2— >-I asked the head of the security to put two security
gu?^rd5? e.t the entrnnce to the relly ground.
Neither od hre two orders were oerrled out. This will not happan
again at any rally that I am In charge of.
I am sending each man a mop di'^ignatlng thetr province. Now that
the state dues are only twenty-five cents per man a month, would
you please see that these reports are In by the 10th of each
Bonth, regardless if there is only sItt men.
So that there is no mistake as to where they have to be sent
the mailing address is listed belowt
STATE DUES GOES TO— P.O. BOX 9^72
LpJce Forest Station
Jacksonville, Fla.
DtTES TO PBOVINCS #3— HH. CHARLES RIDDLEHOOVEB
3111 Houston Street
Port Lauderdale, Pla.
Ihere will have to be tvio reports made out. One for the state and
one for province #3. (IT JS A MUST) T::a.T THESE REPOBTS be in by
the lOth of each and every month. I hope that this will make ths
State of Florida go forward and that we find it In our haarts
to wozk together for our great cause.
3774 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 2- B
FBDM tilf OFFICB OF IHB
CBamD OB/LOON
Jaokaonvllle, Fla.
Sept«ab«r 21, I965
ATTENnON VtStMi K/^-^ ^/^ ^
At this tlae» Z find that we cajinot go by the last letter
that was put out. As I have talked with the Grand Dragons of
the other states and I find thAt bendlns backwards to make
STerybody happy I hare broken the Constitution,
IHIHATIOH PBES-— $15.23 110. 00— Stays In the klavern
per man.
% 3.00 of this Initiation
fee up to 25 men goes
to the klea^le of that
province.
% 2,25 Is paid to the State.
TBJ3 $3.00 per man up to 25 men Is paid to the kleagle
by the Orand Dra^^on.
KBZNSIATBMENT DUES — $10.25- — ^2.00 Of thlsls paid to the
kleagle by the Grand
Oregon.
$2.50— >— Is paid to the State.
REMAINDER OP IHIS STAYS
IN TUB KIAVEBN.
H0N1BLX DUSSt<>->**—-$2.00-— -— — — Per man unless the klavem
as a body votes forit to
be more.
!.50 1
.25 C
.25 c
ZKPSBIAL DUES— — — »-$ .50 .— Per man goes to Mr. Shelton
-Goes to the State.
-Goes to the Titan of each
Province, which will be
paid by the Grand Dragon.
I have been advised by the National Offlve, If any \inlt sees
fit to print up any literature, It must be approved by the Grand
Dragon. Also, If any unit prints any literature, imless otherwise
told by the Grand Dragon, they will be responsible for the bills.
To my knowledge this approves with the Constitution of the lOIIVSa
KLAN OP AMERICA. As Grand Dragon of the UIJITED KIAN OP AMERICA,
Z have to do the best I can by every man.
PROVINCE #2 will be moved up on the N.W. fraa KENTON BEACH
361 to GREENVILLE, PIA, on 221 on FP through ASHVILLE, PIA. on to
the Alabama state line. If anyone in Provlnve #2 desires to stay
under Provinoo #1 they will be allowed to do so.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3775
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 2-G
■ KLIOHAPP'3 MONTHLX HEPOHT « — ■'-'
Klan No. __„^ Realm of __________________ Month of . 19___
This T'-port must be accurately made out In duplicate by the Kllgrapp
and sent to proper headquarters NO LATER THAN THE TENTH of the month Im-
mediately following the last month. Klans In Organized Realms send ONE
COPX TO XOUH STATE OFFICE AND ONE COPY TO IMPERIAL OPi'ICE.
To His Majesty, the Impf>rlal '-'Izard, Knights of the Ku Klux Klani
The following Is my report for the month of . IQ
1. Klan Located at _______^________^___ State of
2. Number KlonVlaves held _____■
3. Average attendance _____
4. Number of members In good standing last
report (If new Klan, number nhen chartered)
5. Number members naturalized this month __
6. Number ministers naturalized this month __
7» Number members reinstated this month __
8* Number members received by transfer this
month __
CROSS HEKBERSUIP
9* Deductions I a. - Suspended __
b. - Transfered
o, - Died
TOTAL DEDUCTIONS
Net Kembershlp In Good Standing This Month
10. Tax on at 25i^ (ONi: KO.^TH) $
Total Amount Due Imperial Headquarters This Report &
♦ • * KAKE CHECK PAYABLE TO UR/u.D DRAGON IN YOUR REaLM • « •
• • "Make Check PAYauLE TO ALAiiA>lA HE;>CUE SERVICE FOR IMPERIAL TAA ♦ • •
Remarket In organized Realms Reports will be sent to Grand Dragon's
Office for certification.
Date t A.D., 19 I A.K.
Signed ______________^ Kllgrapp
Cerlfled by .E.C, Klan
No. __^__ Realm of
SEAL P.O. Address
They will set up units under and as are told by Brother Riddlehoover. These
men will be known as State Kleagles.
The next document, unsigned, is headed "Jacksonville, Florida,
September 6, 1965," relates to Province No. 3 from New Smyrna Beach
to Homosassa to Key West, Florida :
My assistant Brother Charles Riddlehoover is in charge of this area and who-
ever he names as Titan and Security Guard.
Document No. 5, also signed by Don Cothran as Grand Dragon, lists
under Province 3 in charge, Charles Riddlehoover, with question
marks following "titan" and "security guard."
Document No. 6 is a document which also lists Charles Riddlehoover
as Province 3 as the kleagle. The titan has a question mark, and
3776 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
there is under this the officers of the State and this document is dated
prior to Octdber 10, 1964, because it announces that officers meeting
would be held on October 10, 1964.
I hand you these documents, Mr. Riddlehoover, and I ask you if
they were contained in your vehicle?
Mr. Weltner. Mark the set of documents Riddlehoover Exhibit
No. 3.
(Documents marked "Charles Riddlehoover Exhibits Nos. 3-A
through 3^F," respectively. See pp. 3782-3787.)
Mr. Appell. I would like to have marked, Mr. Chairman, "Riddle-
lioover Exhibit No. 4"
Mr. Weltner. Place your question once again to the witness, Mr.
Appell.
Mr. Appell. Were these documents in your vehicle?
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Riddlehoover, was there within the United Klans
of America, in August of 1965, a Klavern known as the Venice Rescue
Service, Venice, Florida?
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. I hand you a document which is marked "Riddle-
hoover Exhibit No. 4," in longhand, addressed to the Broward Fellow-
ship Club, salutation : "Dear Mr. Riddlehoover," and signed "Sincerely
yours, John Peeples," in which there is set forth in the body of the
letter the officers elected according to Mr. Peeples on Tuesday night
prior to 8-11-1965.
I ask you if that was in your vehicle?
Mr. Chairman, I submit the exhibit as Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 4.
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
(Document marked "Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 4" appears
on p. 3777.)
Mr. Weltner. Is that addressed to Broward Fellowship Club?
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir; with the salutation "Dear Mr, Riddlehoover."
Mr. Weltner. Wliat is the staff's comprehension of the Broward
Fellowship Club?
Mr. Appell. As we established in Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 1, Mr.
Riddlehoover is the applicant for a post office box used by Broward
Fellowship Club and the imperial account of the United Klans of
America shows receipt of money from the Broward Fellowship Club.
It is the committee's information that this was a Klavern of the
United Klans of America in Florida.
iMr. Weltner. All of the documents previously marked and ex-
hibited are documents pertaining to the United Klans of America ; is
that correct?
Mr. Appell. Except for Grantham Exhibit No. 2, which Grantham
Exhibit 2 is the minutes of a meeting held October 24, 1965, at which
former members of the United Klans of America met and reconsti-
tuted themselves into a new Klan organization known as the United
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Incorporated.
Mr. Weltner. Let me see Grantham Exhibit No. 2.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3777
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 4
/4vu**- iP-JUtcA. -it/U/A
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yrA^tAJU ^^«r*.I^ .J'ry^fuyfi "yin^rtcC^^lJf- ^ •O^k^'i,,^ Xj"-
./i><^ ^•^ ^3<s^ xO-rt«**. c^-ipU. T^-t^^r t^^Ut^ty».j '^a^ i
/r-^.*^,
t^-Zj. -m^ ;6W. §^*«- <2<r«UJ. o^^^t-v^ d^<-'^>*^^''^>^
^ /,^j»c ;5^ ./u;^ /=<:^^^ M^x,JL^A^ e->nd^*^.*^
3778 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Eiddlehoover, I show you a document which is
headed at the top "To Robert M. Shelton Imperial Wizard IT.K.A."
It is titled "A PETITION."' It reads :
We the members of the U.K.A. hereby file the petition to oust Don Gothran
Grand Dragon of the state of Fla. from the U.K.A. Reason for ousting.
1. No ability as a leader.
2. No clear record of funds.
3. Does not give assistance to Klaverns.
4. When a man does a good job as organizer or for the good of the U.K.A. Mr.
Cotheran [sic] suspends or demotes these men.
There is contained the hand signatures of different individuals, in-
cluding C. B. Riddlehoover.
I ask you if this document was in your vehicle?
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. I would like to have this document admitted as "Rid-
dlehoover Exhibit No. 5."
Mr. Weltner. It will be marked and all of the documents will be
offered at the conclusion of the witness' testimony.
(Document marked "Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 5" appears
on p. 3779.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Riddlehoover, there is a document dated Octo-
ber 12, 1965, addressed to the United Klans of America, Realm of
Florida, "Dear Brother Shelton."
This document is signed "Yours for Christ and America, C. B.
'Rip' Riddlehoover," and it reads :
I sit here tonight in deep regret of having to write you this letter.
I have tried to contact you on numerous occasions without success.
Our great organization, United Klans of America, in the state of Florida needs
help — and very quickly. The kind of help we need is Leadership.
There is no limit to the growth of U.K.A. in this state if we can rid our ranks
of this terrible friction and ill will.
I do want you to know and understand that Brother Al Massey and I have
put forth ix)ssibly more time, effort and money moving up and down this state
every weekend building this organization than anyone in the state of Florida.
I am not trying to win any medals or recognition. I am interested only in
organizing and going forward. My interest and intentions in the organization
began in Broward County, Florida (of which I am a resident.) I started out
as an E.C of the local Klavern. Then suddenly Brother Cothjan wants me to
be a Titan. One month later he changes my rank to Grand Klaliff ; then decides
to change me back to a Kleagle. Now, I understand (without notification)
I am just a Klansman.
I ask you Brother Shelton what kind of Klan business is this? To be honest
I don't think any oflicer under Don Cothran is anything, as he appoints a new
list about every month.
I'll tell you Mr. Shelton we can never go forward as long as this dissension
and turmoil prevails in our state. I am pleading with you to come forward and
straighten this matter out before it gets into our Klaverns and we lose a lot
of good men.
I am enclosing the minutes of our meeting held in Fort Pierce on Oct. 10, 1965
at which time an election was to have been held as agreed upon by the Grand
Dragon himself and supported by the majority of state officers. The election
was held by 17 delegates who were not notified by anyone that no election
was to be held. I am leaving the legality and certification of this entirely up
to you.
I am enclosing check in amount of $40.00 to cover cost of Fiery Crosses which
I received from you.
I ask you, Mr. Riddlehoover, one, did you write a letter identical to
this to "Brother Shelton"?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3779
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 5
To .tBob«rt M. Shsltoa Iap«rl«l ffltard O.K.A.
A PKTITiaH
¥e the ■enbers of the O^ItAt hereby file the petition
to oust Don Cothran Oraad OraigoB of the itate of Tla.
froB the U.K. A'* Baaaom for ooetlnc.
1. No ability as a leaAer
2. Ro clear record of funds
3. Does not glre aasiatance to CaTema
4: When a Ban doea a good job aa organiser or for the
good of the U.K. A. Mr* Cotheran aaapenda or denotea
these Ben.
^/yf'
•i)
I
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. I ask you whether or not a copy of this document, the
copy from which I read, or a copy of the copy, w^as contained in your
vehicle ?
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Weltner. The witness has been furnished a copy of the docu-
ment for examination.
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
3780 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
(Document marked "Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 6" and re-
tained in committee files.)
Mr. Appell. I ask you if the Grantham Exhibit No. 1, which I
exhibited to you, was a copy of the minutes of the October 10 meeting
which you forwarded along with that letter to Imperial Wizard
Shelton?
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. Is it a fact that because you received no response from
that letter that your group met on October 24 and voted to disaffiliate
with the United Klans of America and affiliated yourselves into a new
Klan organization known as the United Knights of the Ku Klux Klan,
Incorporated ?
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Riddlehoover, I show you a copy of pages from an
address book. I ask you if that address book containing the informa-
tion thereon was in your vehicle ?
Mr. Weltner. Mark it "Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 7."
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
(Document marked "Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 7." See
pp. a788-3798.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Riddlehoover, I ask you whether or not the desig-
nation after the names shown in this address book, designation such
as BR No. 176, and so forth, if the BR-176 is the numerical designa-
tion of a Klansman given to the individual whose name appears next
to it?
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Weltner. Would that mean Broward County ?
Mr. Appell. It does not, Mr. Chairman, because in alphabetical
order you will find on one page people whose last names are M, BR-
176, BR-171, BR-151, and BR-126 and the BR number runs as low
as 103 and up into the late lOO's.
Mr. Riddlehoover, I show you a list of names and ask you whether
or not in your vehicle at the time it was stopped by the Dade County
Sheriff's Office at the time it was driven by Mr. Grantham, whether
there were applications for membership in the United Klans of Amer-
ica of the individuals whose names are listed on this list ?
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previ-
ously stated.
(Document marked "Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 8." See
pp. 3799,3800.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the documents exhibited to
the witness marked "Riddlehoover 1 through 8," inclusive, be admitted
at the points where they were referred to.
Mr. Weltner. Without objection, they will be admitted at the
aj^propriate points.
Mr. Appell. The staff has no further questions.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3781
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Riddlehoover, you have an opportunity at this
point to offer any matter that is relevant. This is not a question, but
it is an opportunity that you are afforded at this point.
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Appell, is it the result of the investigation of
the committee that, when the organization United Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan was formed from the former UKA members in the State
of Florida in October 1965, Mr, Riddlehoover became the Grand
Dragon of that new organization ?
Mr. Appell. That is what the records of the meeting founding
convention dated October 24, 1965, reflect, sir.
Mr. Weltner. That would be the highest office, in the organization
created in October known as the United Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Appell. Tliis was the highest office that they provided for;
yes, sir.
Mr. Weltner. Does the staff have any information about how
many imits or Klavems of the United Knights there are at this time ?
Mr. Appell. We have no certain knowledge, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Riddlehoover, how many Klaverns are there of
the United Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in the State of Florida ?
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Riddlehoover, are you today a member of any
Klan organization?
Mr. Riddlehoover. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Appell. The staff has no further questions.
Mr. Weltner. I note that this organization as a separate Klan
organization came into existence subsequent to the beginning of these
hearings in October of last year. Consequently, there is no designa-
tion on the map which is here behind the desk of the newly formed
United Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
I think it would be helpful in order to supplement the analysis that
has previously been made and made a part of this record to develop
it as fully as possible based upon the testimony and the investigation
the full extent of our knowledge concerning the location of Klaverns
and any cover they use and the present situation with regard to UKA
and United Knights within the State of Florida.
There being no further questions, the witness will be excused and
the comLmittee will be in recess for approximately 5 minutes.
(Whereupon, at 3:15 p.m., a brief recess was taken. Subcommittee
members present at time of recess and when hearing resumed : Repre-
sentatives Weltner and Buchanan.)
(Charles Riddlehoover Exhibits Nos. 3-A through 3-F, No. 7, and
No. 8, introduced on pages 3776 and 3780 follow :)
59-222 O— 67 — pt. 5 20
3782 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 3-A
June lif, 1965
9Mf Kermard Street
Jacks onvllle, P:j.orlda
TO ALL UNITS
REUM OFrLOalDA
CNTIEO KLAKS OP FLORIDA
DE'.H KlAJIGlffiNi
This letter is to inform all Klansnen of the UKA, Inc», Realm
of Florida that Klansman Sharles Riddlehoover of Ft« Lauderdale,
h-^s been appointed to the office of TITAN of Southern Florida
and will work directly with myself ani Brother Lloyd Williams,
who is Titan of Northern Florida. The Titans will han-tle the
disbursement of all ^lacs emblems*
Please announce this change in your next Idonldave assenbly and
If there are any further, questions oonccrninc this matter please
let us know*
Yours,
For God, Country and Our Hace,
Don Cothran, "Jrand Dragon
United Kians of America, Inc.
Realm of '"lorida
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3783
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 3-B
iOl Oilta
Qdtod I2jxa of AaKifio^ Ino*
Buln of Florida
HSDSCtDt
Qrothor R!p Rid lltdxxDvor I9 nsv SLaliff In tho State of Rorlda*
Brot.'nr Ooboms la Sitfp of Doutium Flori(2a«
Z vill bo out of fftato cppra^JxAd^ ttcoo voo\:Om TiroVbcs':^uy!laixxrrat
vUl bo ia oorploto otignn of t:» Ototo of Tlxxiiia litlo Z aa Qonn*
*y lOmarm op klaraOacV ojsj:;* tc^isic '-IdrsraXt ootoido of nootlng
wHl bo ouaproctod fbe o parioi of 90 dxra*
i^ U-jtmec or U-aagoc^ {r>lrc over ilo rj*a bood or vboovor is In
oliorco uiU olao bo oospcn^xl*
tJIicQ Z rotum Z uiU booo ocxa» Zltoraturo to cS-vo to tha di£&xx»t
viito* Z bopo fit tI:iio tdm tbo Idcnxoo end IJLancdadlns of Slcslda
ecD stop tboir oWl^ftft vt^ wA so XtevurJ*
YburOf
Cts* 05d flod
n Cotlrcn
L.uod' itXci^ of flncrftea» Jao^
Roolaof Floorlda
Brother Ted TMist
3784 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 3-C
JacksKivUle^ Florida
August 26, '!$($
United Klon of Aaorioa
P.oaln of Florida
Attention SC»a
At tliid tlc» I %ioAld like to call too your attention that Pracic
Stepliena of Ocala, Vla^ md Al Ma-.coj- of Ja2'.:sorville, Via \dll
orsanis© imder the dlrec+Aon of Drothar Ciuurlos Hlddlehxyver*
They will set tip tsiLts tmder and as oro told ti^ Brothoc IdLdJlaboorvetrt
These raen will be lcnm:n as State I<U*acioc»
A^so lot it be lonoiai that Brother Carlos Lopcr vill be over all
eecurlty guards In l'oi'tfu:>m ?la« At thia ti:x I would like to
rendnd all EC'S in IJorthem Fla, to holp 2rotl:or lOper to coco
up vith soQo mon as security guards ai'O badly ncoded jba VArtbem
FSLa*
Brother Rid>ilehoovar also vUl have 1?) appoint one to be in charge
of scotiri-ty guards In Scnzttem Fla» Theso tax idll vork togethor
for better seourltgr*
Yovu'S
5br Cod and Country
/C
fii O'-^/u
Don Cot rsn
Groxid Dracon
Realm of Florida
VKLTSD KLAN 0? AMSRICA
DCt^
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3785
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 3-D
Jaokeonvlll©, Florida
September o, I965
Attention to all EC»st
As of September 4th, I965 the follovrlns >»611 be carried out,
Ihe frorit state of Florida will be divided Into three provlnoes.
I am proud to announce thati
PflDVTKCE #1— Consists fron the Al^bnira strte line — 1-75 down
to k2. Oils area Is In charge of Tlten — Brother Lloyd Wllllems--
Kleegle Bobby Graham from l^^llniiflcsciff and Head Security Guard-
Brother Carlos E. Loper from Jacksonville, Florida.
pncVIKCE #2 Starte from 1-75 to Spst Coast to New Snyma
Beach, Fie, Ihls district Is under TttDji— Raymond Peacock-
Organizer — -Al Kassey and rhoever tbey have as security gunM,
PHDVirCE ^3 Frxjm New Smyrna Beach, Fla. to Horaasassa to
Key V^est, Fla,\Ky asslstflnt Brother Charles Riddlehoover Is
In charge of this area and vhoever he names as Titan and
Security Guard.
Klensmen, let me at this time specify clearly, that the Grand
Dragon villi have the right to go Into these territories for
Inspection at any time he wishes. I also clearly state that
no klansmen vtIII not 50 into another province without the per-
mission of the Grand Dragon.
It Is our steadfast wishes that the Stnte of Florida grovr- and
we ere doing xihat we can to make It grow. Each province »^11
be able to have their rallies at any time as they see fit.
But, the Gnjid Dragon requecte thr.t i^rch pro'"lncc notify hire
one week In advance of any rally held In the State of Florida.
Let me remind you at this time that you ^-i-ll be held responclbl*
of your areas, that you will not put rr.yone on the plntform
that Is not a United Klaji of Anericr kl'-npirian oft klrnrlrdy.
iasarges vrill be banishment froa the United Klan of America. At
all times a klansmen or klanslady ;.-ill speak in Interest of
the United Klan of America. AIfo, let me remind you that at
ell times that the State of Florida comes imder the direction
of the Grand Dragon, At thld time, I will remind you that at
any time a charge is mafle sgplnst any klansmsn or klanslady,
there will be as many as twelve men sitting at the trial, Befor*
Z win recognize the charges. Also, there must be one state
offloer there to take ziotea for me and the Imperial board.
3786 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 3-E
At all rallies no inltlatioB ohaxsa vlll b« aada until tha nan
ara oh«oked out.
this !• a list of vAio is in the three provinoesi
PIDVINCB #1
TITAN Lloyd 3. Wllllens
. Organizer— Bobby Graham v
HEAD SECUQITY GUABD-— Carlos S. Loper
PH0VINCE52
TITAN- — Hfiymond Peacock
ORG-VNIZEH— Al Massoy
SECUEtTY GUAHD-— ????
PHDVIHCE#3— - -
IN C^UHG EOF CHARLES RIDDLSnoOVER
TITAN—????
• • SECURITY GUARD ????
X f any oreanlzer vdll looH at the.'^e mr.pe very oarefully and has
any oppll cations, monoy or otherwise, rail then to the Grand
Dragon ftnd he vlll see that It goes to the proper place. A receipt
will be sent for the money that Is received.
Yours for God/and Country
Don Cothi'an
.Gmnd Drac-on
UIJITED YUAli OF AMERICA
Reala of Flo rids
DCtJrl
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3787
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 3-F
A STAT8 OPFICSBS MEBTISOr WILL BB HELD OCIDBSB 10th, AT HOUDAX Xm.
PLACE FOBT PIEHCE, FLA.
TIK.E-i: lOiOO A«— SirNDAT,
Thlt neetlng la aoalled so that we vaj Iron oat an/ dlfferanoaa that
va say have/
It hne been ay duty for over a yeftr to shuffle men around to
try pnd find the scan beat fitted for each office they hold.
Also loyalty to these positions ond prompt response means a lot.
At this time I find It neooecGnry to reappoint State Officers until
tlaa of election vhloh will be this oo-nlnc sprlns.
Officers for PROVINCE #1 vlll cc :io under TIT.\N Uoyd WllUama.
KLiL\GLZ— — OCTVAX LANIRFi— — nE.HUlNDO, FLA.
SECUniTT GUARDS BEaAIM -EIE SAI-iE.
Pxo'Tlnea #2 Titan-— Bnynond PcecooIc
Kleagl»<~Al Ni£G3ey
ProTlnoa #3 Kleoglft—Cherles Rlddlchoovep
Titan 7???????
Z feeftthat these men are the best to orsanlze theee territories*
Z also feel that these men are best f 11 ted for thesa posltlona.
SIATE OFFICERS
DON KHIGHT VICB PRHS, FT, lAUDERDALB
Tburton bi^lL '>;'!!£ lsctoseti -ns'^T'^KDO, fla
.REV, Konnc aL\ru'-iN H~r^:Aj:Do, fia,
-BIEO'A LBCMAHD 31CRETART— — JACT:DC:IVILLE, FLA
•CAHLOS E, LOPETl— TaEASU.'lEB- -JACKGOMTILLE, FIA.
-ADCfiJATni— — COrJDUCTOP. KT. LAUDSHDALE, FIA. |
-FFAMX CHAIG— IHNER GDRnS JACKSONVILLE, FLA.
'B.M PSIUEL— — — — OUTiin GUARD— —OCAL«>, FIA. '
.— VAPaiai HAi;SOM———i:iVr"-nTlGAl'OS— JACKSONVILLE, FIA*
KLOKANM———- WILLIAM S. LL01T5 DOARD OP IN7ESnGATOE3 — DELLVIEW,PL
CIAHTTCE VILCOM— — — — FOHT PIlHCE, FIA.
NIGHT HAVK— — ????77?77????77— — Cl'OK CAilDILATES — FT. lAUDaHDALB
Gentlemen, I ' -ive looked at each stnta srow with no oompleAnta
and I have alco uoen to everu eouthom strte this Ginrser. I have
watched the resooot they have for tholr officers, eonethlng we have
been lax on in the pant. 3ut 1 hone that In t'.ie future that we cen
respeot the ofi'lces these nen hol-i. I have been to lax In the past,
but In the future you will find It hard to stand up to the standards
we must have, Tr^sse officers t'-uit have bean ncned will bo respected and
their orders ccrrled out. If yoa wish to rcisla In the U;."irij3 KLAiJ OF
A«2aiC\, i:: the BSALM of FLOniDA, Anyone that doeca»t feel that he
oan coma up to those standards, we; 11 be elad to accept his raslgnatloiu
do State of Florida as a whole Is groans (III ALL PABT3) and
wa shall go forward.
I0UE13
FOB GOD Ara COUNTHT
DOH COTSMUa
3788
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Charles Riddi.ehoover Exhibit No. 7
(Pages from address book.)
Anderson, Charles
Margate, Florida
Annsdoerf, H. E.
4440 N. W. 33 Avenue
Abernathy, Olen
1444 N. E. 1 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Abernathy, Clay
1445 N. W. Third Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Anderson, Arthur M.
1344 N. E. 1 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Austra, George
4263 Raverswood Road
Fort Lauderdale
Brother #114
Brother #117
Brother #120
(Home) JA 4-5396 (Work) JA 3-6494
Brother #132
(Home) JA 3-2755 (Work) ^A 3-892$
Brother #165
Brother #187
(Home) 583-3152
Bowman, George W.
1444 N. W. 7 Terrace
Fort Lauderdale
Bowman, George
Birminglam, 0. H.
1438 N. E. 1 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Boykin, N. R.
5262 Redwood Place
Plantation
Burton, William F.
224 N. E. 30 Street
Fort Lauderdale
Birmingham, Gerald A.
1300 N. E. 1 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Bland, James C.
209 N. E. 5 Street
Pompano Beach
Bowie, John V.
3121 N. W. 46 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Brown, Ralph T.
3141 S. W. 22 Street
Fort Lauderdale
Barnhill, James F.
3181 N. E. 12 Avenue
Pompano
(Home) 523-2993
Brother #112
(Home) JA 39361 (Work) 583-0930
Brother #134
(Home) 583-4595 (Work) JA 3-5007
Brother #148
(Home) 566-0938 (Work) 523-0874
JA 4-5485
942-6722
581-8009
LU 1-2952
972-0911
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3789
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 7 — Continued
Clark, John
5787 Winfield Blvd.
Margate, Florida
Conn, George R. , Si.
Cleatwood, Eric
2231 S. W. 42 Terrace
Fort Lauderdale
Carroll, Robert G.
3621 N. E. 10th Avenue
Chapman, James W.
1420 N. W. 41 Court
Fort Lauderdale
Carroll, Dick
1506 N. E. 43 Street
Pompano
Gulp, James LeRoy
1506 S. W. 4 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Carlstroft, Howard W.
3205 N. W. -Third Street
Fort Lauderdale
972-6391
Brother #125
Brother #146
(Home) 587-3811
Brother #169
(Home) LO-6 6334
Brother #180
(Home) 565-3253
Brother #184
(Home) 941-2901
Brother 191
(Home) JA 2-6482
581-2177
Dures, Glen
515 N. W. 29 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Delegal, Charles F.
4098 North Dixie Highway
0. P.
Dwyer, Chuck
3350 S. W. 46 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Denker, Ernest J.
660 S. W. 55 Avenue
Pompano
Daniel, David R
N. W. Rock Island
Road, 0. P.
Downey, Phillip C.
811 N. W. 68 '^Terrace
West Hollywood
Dan
Brother #115
(Home) 583-1186
Brother #131
(Home) 566-0909
Brother #153
Brother #158
(Home) 972-1251 (Work) 525-5512
Brother #173
(Home) LU 3-4778
LU 9-3689
JA 2-3227 - 45 minutes
3790 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 7 — Continued
E
Elmore, Harry L.
4330 N. W. 34 Court
Lauderdale Lakes
Edwards, James W.
518 N. W. 42 Street
Fort Lauderdale
Brother #159
(Home) 581-4915
Brother #170
566-6792
Fisher, Don
Freeman, Paul A.
1013 N. W. 11 Court
Fort Lauderdale
Fletcher, Gilbert (Dick)
1551 N. E. 59 Place
Fort Lauderdale
F lynn , Leon
1629 N. W. 15 Place
Fort Lauderdale
Brother #124
Brother #133
(Home) 523-5024 (Work) 523-7321
Brother #136
Daly Wrecker (Work) 523-1861
Brother #183
(Home) JA 3-8765
Oilman, H. L.
30 S. E. 25 Street
Gettinger, John H.
1500 N W 1 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Geiger, Ellis R.
4240 N. W. 10 Terrace
Fort Lauderdale
Grantham, Jack H.
18710 N W 44 Court
Works/ Hollywood Ford (Mechanic)
Gaines, Hershal
6052 Pliinkett Street
West Hollywood
Greer, Russell S.
931 N. W. 12 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Gomillion, Earl
2200 S. W. 46 Terrace
Fort Lauderdale
Brother #105
(Home) 522-8058
Brother #138
(Home) 524-6488 (Work) 523-1236
Brother #182
(Home) 564-5128
Brother #190
(Work) 922-6721
Brother #194
(Home) YU - 3 2698
JA 4-2158
583-7384
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3791
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 7 — Continued
H
Horton, Bobby
612 S. W. 16 Street
Fort Lauderdale
Howell, Charles
6050 Pluckett Street
West Hollyvood
Heflin, Herman E.
1239 N. W. 1 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Holton, L. R.
1012 West Organe Street
Lake City, Florida
Hardway, Robert E.
1201 N. W. 18 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Holmes, Leo
1310 Miami Road
Fort Lauderdale
Harrelson, J. E.
1307 S. W. 24 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Brother #181
525-3961
Brother #186
(Home) YU 3-2698
523-9342
752-5638
Brother #119
Brother #123
Brother #155
Johnson, Hoke L.
1351 RD. 84
Jones, F. George
1004 S. E. 6 Court
Fort Lauderdale
James, Robert
810 N. E. 58 Court
Fort Lauderdale
Brother #123,
JA 2-1388
Brother #140
(Home) 523-9906
933-5673
3792 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 7 — Continued
K
Karl
Kemp, John W.
1800 S. W. 69 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Kidd, Fred R.
1512 N. W. 6 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Knight, Don
5464 N. W. 5 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Kinnucan, W. H.
2880 N. E. 29 Street
Fort Lauderdale
Kraft, Robert W
4421 S. W. 73 Terrace
Davie, Florida
229-7976
Brother #178
Brother #152
(Home) 524-5832
Brother #104
(Home) 565-5954
Lamme, Gordon L.
818 N. W. 26 Street
Fort Lauderdale
Lebo , B immy
3820 N. W. 8 Court
Lee, Lawrence
5717 Seth Drive
Margate
Law, Willard
1097 N. E. 40 Court
0 . Park
Lunsford, Grady E.
1146 N. W. 6 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
LeClair, Audre
700 S. W. 2 Court
Fort Lauderdale
Lane, John H.
2427 N. E. 7 Avenue
Fort Lauderdale
Lane, Clarence T.
620 N. W. 33 Terrace
Fort Lauderdale
Lawrence, L. R.
1408 S. E. 2 Court
Fort Lauderdale
Brother #128
(Home) 566-8193
Brother #109
583-6334
Brother #144
(Home) 972-0214
Brother #160
(Home) 564-1398
Brother #166
(Home) 525-1187
Brother=#185
(Home) 522-5380
LO 4-8884
587-0299
JA 2-2753
2^
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 7 — Continued
3793
I 7
I NAME-ADDRESS -ZIPCODE
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3794 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 7 — Continued
NAME • ADDRESS • ZIP CODE
PHONE
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ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 7 — Continued
3795
una III! I ""Mill
NAME • ADDRESS • ZIP CODE
PHONE
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3796 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 7 — Continued
NAME • ADDRESS • ZIP CODE
PHONE
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ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 7 — Continued
3797
A
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PHONE
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59-222 O— 67— pt. 5 21
3798 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 7 — Continued
NAME • ADDR • ZIP CODE
PH
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ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3799
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 8
Th« following Hat vaa Uik«n froa •pplleatlont found
in th« po*s«aslon of CHARLES BAKER RIDDLEHOOVER vh«n h« wa« arrested on*
October 29, 196S:
JAtCS R. HAU. - Box ^91, UaatllU, Florida. Th« aubjact ia cuyloyad by
the City of DaatllU. Ha liata hia age aa 32, hla vaight aa 170 pounda,
and his height aa 9* 10%".
W. F. ROUWPTRn: - Box #262, naatilla, Florida. The aubjact' a application
vaa dated 6/i2/65, and ha liata hla age aa 52 yaara, hla viight aa 200
pounda and is height aa 6*.
FRANKLIN WIUBY • Route #1, Box 273-1, UmatllU, Florida. The aubjact'a
application ia datad 6/12/65. The aubject la eo^loyed by Howard Henry
Mason Constriiction, and lists his age as 28 years, hla weight aa 245 pounda,
and his height aa 6* 1".
KKNNARD C. WIILIAHB - Box M83, Umatilla, Florida. The aubject is etaployed
by Cape Kennedy and liat^ hla age aa 53 yeara, hia wAtght aa 190 pounda,
and his height aa 5' 9".
JAMES F. SWELL —Box #341, Unatllla. Florida. The aubjeet'a application
ia dated 6/12/65. He la employed by Harold Oakley Fruit Company, liata his .
age aa 36 yeara, hia weight aa 195 potinda, and hia height aa 5' 9Y.
MERRELL A. AUJ^OW - Route #1, Box 290-0, ttaatllla. Florida. The aubject
la employed by Allison Brotiiera Grove Service, and liata his aga aa 29 years,
hia weight as 180 pounda, and hia height aa 5' 9".
RAY W. BRYApr • Box #142. Umatilla, Florida. The aubject' a application is
dated 6/12/65. The aubject liata his employer aa the Golden Gem Growers,
and his age as 22 years, his weight as 175 pounds, and his height as 5'
S. C. BRYAMT > Post Office Box #1A2. Umatilla, Florida. The subject's
application Is dated 6/12/65. He is enployed by Lake County, and lists his
age as 60 years, his weight as 195 pounds, and la height aa 5* 7".
JAMES L. KRAFT QOUMrT) • 4421 S. W. 73 Terrace. The subject's application
Is dated August 1, 1965. He is enployed by Steel Fab, 721 M. E. 44th
Place. The subject lists his age as 24 years, his weight aa 110 pounda,
and his height as 5' 10".
CECIL HOU - 4487 8. W. 67 Terrace, Davie, Florida. The subject's
application la dated August 1, 1965. He Is aaployed by Industrial Pump,
261 S. W. 12th Avenue, Pompano, Florida. He lists his age as 30 years,
his weight as 175 pounds, and his height as 5' 7".
KDIG SOL BRAMHAM (BRAHKAM) - 4421 S. W. 73 Terrace, Fort Uuderdala,
Florida. The subject's application is dated August I, 1965. He is
employed by CECIL HOLT (see above). He lists his age as 30 years, his
weight as 175 pounds, and his height as 5* 7*'.
R. B. MA8SET • 4240 S. W. 64 Avenue. The subject's application is dated
September 13, 1965. The subject states he is self-employed and gives the
above address for both business and residence. He is 41 years of age,
weights 175 pounds, and is 5' 11" in height.
fik E. JSPKBIBIWS - 1661 Limiood Drive. The subject's application is dated
eptember 7, 1965. He states that he is a boat operator employed by
Joe Cramel. He lists his ai;e as 56 years, his weight as 210 pounds, and
hia height aa 6' 2V'.
3800 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Charles Riddlehoover Exhibit No. 8 — Continued
CARL J. VINMPK? - 6931 S. W. 57th Str««t. The subject llgts his
occupation «s • 1 '
Be lists his age
5' 8".
- 6931 S. W. 57th Street. The subject lists his
livestock inspector for the Florida Department of Agriculture.
I as 32 years, his weight as 170 pounds, and his height aa
(The following applications wave labeled "8-7«'65)
(Clearwater )
KENNETH TUQTf - 906 M. Belcher Road. The subject's application Is dated
August 6, 1965. The subject lists his eii|>Io/:nent as being self employed
at 1612 Hercules. He lists his age as 45 years, his weight as 300 pounds,
and his height as 5' 10%".
CHESTER W. sum - 4999 % Avenue, North Pinellas Park. The subject's
application is dated Auguat 7, 1965. He lists his occupation as President
of 8. & S. Earthnovers, Inc. , P. 0. #774. PlnelUa Park, Florida. He
lists his age as 32 years, his weight as 192 pounds, and his height as S'
lOYt
tOIKRT R. SDICUIK * 1730 tMiahem Orlwa. Hm aukjaet** application la
d«te4 Auguat 77 mS. He states th«t he is aayloyed by Dick Mills
Haatlas and Air Conditioniag Company. 702 Court Street. Clearwater. PUrida.
Re lists hia age aa 60 years, his weight aa ISS pounds, and his height aa
5' 9".
JfOt HALEY (AUT) • 1318 Sunset Place Road. The aubject's application
ia dated Auguat 7, 1961. He lists his occupation as a switchman for
the General Telepbons Company. Re is 29 years of age, weights 158 pounds,
wd is S* r in hai^t.
RAYMOWD F. H0CHK8 — 5600 31 Street, So. St. Pete. The sx^Jaet's
application ia dated August 7, 1965. He lists hia occupation aa loan
manager and field representative of the Univiaal Lean Coopaay, lllO Castral
Avanue, St. Fete. Ba liats his age aa 24 years, hia weight mm 140 pouada,
and hia hal^t aa S' 9".
l^kRRT R, COOPg^ - 2601 60 Avenue, Ko. St. Pete, Florida. The aubjact*s
application is dated Auguat 7. 1965. He lists his occupation aa parking
and landscaping contractor, 4399 62 Avenue, Ho. St. Pete, Florida. Ha
ia self-eioployed.
AMPREW RQDiy. JR. - P- 0. Box #7. The subject's application is dated
Auguat 7, 1965. He lists his occupation as student at die Clearwater
Junior Collage, and hia age as 19 years, his weight as 215 pounds, and
his height aa 5' 9".
JOSEPH A. PATTEy III - 1741 Loirf>ardy , Clearwater. The aubject's
application is dated July 28, 1965. Re lists his occupation as a sales
man for Croolaer Building Supply Company. He is 30 years of age, weights
213 pounds, and hia 6' 2" in height.
TOM R. McCOCT - 442-S76S. The subject lists his occupation as a roofing
contractor, self employed. 442-6744. He Is 33 years of age, weights 273
pounds, and is 6' 3" in height.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3801
Mr. Weltner. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Stoner.
Mr. Stoner. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask at this time whether
my client, Mr. William Sterling Rosecrans, Jr., who is now^ in the
United States penitentiary at Terre Haute, Indiana, if he will be
called at this time as a witness since I am his attorney?
Mr. Weltnee. The committee has no present plans to call your
client, Mr. Stoner. He is not under subpena. There are no present
plans to call him. Of course, that may change, but it would require
further action on the part of the committee. There is no present plan
to call him, Mr. Stoner.
The committee will now stand in recess until 10 :30 tomorrow morn-
ing to meet at this same place.
Subconunittee members present at time of recess: Representatives
Welter and Buchanan.)
(Wliereupon, at 3 :20 p.m., Wednesday, February 23, 1966, the sub-
committee recessed, to reconvene Thursday, February 24, 1966.)
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN ORGANIZATIONS IN
THE UNITED STATES
Part 5
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 1966
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D.C.
PUBLIC HEARING
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities, as
reconstituted for the February 24 hearing, met, pursuant to recess, at
10 :30 a.m., in the Caucus Eoom, Cannon House Office Building, Wash-
ington, D.C, Hon. Joe R. Pool (chairman of the subcommittee)
presiding.
(Subcommittee members: Representatives Joe R. Pool, of Texas,
chairman ; Charles L. Weltner, of Georgia ; and John H. Buchanan,
Jr^ of Alabama. )
Subcommittee members present: Representatives Pool and Bu-
chanan.
Committee members also present : John M. Ashbrook, of Ohio.
Staff members present: Francis J. McNamara, director; William
Hitz, general counsel; Alfred M. Nittle, counsel; Donald T. Appell,
chief investigator; and Philip R. Manuel, investigator.
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
For the record, the Chair would like to state that the subcommittee
appointed to investigate the Ku Klux Klan, named heretofore by the
chairman, has a quorum present, consisting of Mr. Buchanan and
myself, with Mr. Ashbrook of the full committee also present.
(The ap]3ointment of the subcommittee follows :)
February 17, 1966.
To: Mr. Francis J. MoNamara
Director, Committee on Tin-American Activities
Pursuant to the provisions of the law and the Rules of this Committee, I
hereby appoint a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities con-
sisting of Honorable Joe R. Pool, as Chairman, and Honorable Charles L. Weltner
and Honorable John Buchanan as associate members, to conduct hearings in
Washington, D.C. on Thursday, February 24, 1966, as contemplated by the reso-
lution adopted by the Committee on the 30th day of March, 1965, authorizing
hearings concerning the activities of the various Ku Klux Klan organizations in
the United States.
Please make this action a matter of Committee record.
If any member indicates his inability to serve, please notify me.
Given under my hand this 17th day of February, 1966.
/si/ Edwin E. Willis,
Edwin E. Willis,
Chairman, Committee on Un-American Activities.
3803
3804 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell, call your next witness.
Mr. Stoner. Excuse me, Your Honor. I have bursitis in my right
shoulder this morning.
Mr. Pool. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this
morning will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Stoner. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JESSE BENJAMIN STONER
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, will you state your full name for the
record, please?
Mr. Stoner. Jesse Benjamin Stoner, S-t-o-n-e-r.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Stoner. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. Do you desire counsel ?
Mr. Stoner. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. Have you received a copy, and are you familiar with
the contents, of the opening statement of Chairman Willis delivered
in October 1965 ?
Mr. Stoner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, when and where were you born ?
Mr. Stoner. I respectfully refuse to answer on the grounds that
to do so might tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to answer by
invoking all of my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th,
8th, 9th, 10th, and 14tli amendments to the Constitution of the United
States of America.
Mr, Appell. Mr. Stoner, would you give the committee a resume of
your educational background ?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, would you give us a brief resume of your
employment background ?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. In 1952, were you admitted to the practice of the
law by the Superior Court, Fulton County, Georgia?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, are you appearing here today in ac-
cordance with a subpena served upon you on February 11, 1966, at
the United States marshals' office in Atlanta, Georgia ?
Mr. Stoner. To the best of my memory and recollection, that is
correct, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, the subpena served upon you contained an
attachment, which was made a part of the subpena, and under the
terms of the subpena you were commanded to bring with you and
to produce documents described in paragraph 1 :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda relating to
the organization of and the conduct of business and affairs of the Christian
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc. in your possession, custody or control, or
maintained by you or available to you as present or former official of the Chris-
tian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3805
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 1, I ask you
to produce the documents called for.
Mr. Stoner. I refuse on the grounds that to do so might tend to
incriminate me, and I also refuse by invoking all of my rights and
privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th amend-
ments to the Constitution of the United States of America.
Mr. Pool. The reasons you have given for your refusal to produce
the documents called for by this attachment to the subpena do not
legally justify your refusal, and those reasons are rejected.
I order and direct you to produce these docmnents called for by
the subpena pursuant to paragraph 1 of the subpena and to produce
these documents called for therein in the representative capacity
stated in the subpena.
Mr. Stoner. I respectfully refuse on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Pool. Your reasons are rejected.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, we now give you an opportunity at this
time to explain whether or not there is any reason which makes it
impossible for you to produce the records called for in paragraph 1.
Mr. Stoner. I refuse on the grounds that to do so might tend to
incriminate me, and I also refuse by invoking all of my rights and
privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th amend-
ments to the Constitution of the United States of America.
I further resiDectfully refuse on the ground that to do so w^ould con-
stitute a waiver of my right to use and to invoke my constitutional
rights and privileges on further questions.
Mr. Pool. Your answer is rejected by the committee, and I order
and direct you to produce these documents called for by the inter-
rogator and pursuant to the subpena, paragraph 1, and to produce
these documents called for therein in the representative capacity
stated in the subpena.
Mr. Stoner. I respectfully refuse on all of the grounds just stated-
Mr. Pool. Your reasons are rejected.
Mr. Appell. Paragraph 2 calls upon you to produce :
All books, records, documents, correspondence, and memoranda in your pos-
session, custody or control, or maintained by or available to you, in your capacity
as present or former official of the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc.,
which the "Constitution and Laws" of said organization authorize and require
to be maintained by you and any other officer of said organization, the same being
in your possession, custody or control.
In the representative capacity set forth in paragraph 2, I ask you
to produce the docimients called for.
Mr. Stoner. I respectfully refuse on all of the grounds previously
stated and also on the ground that to do so would waive my right
to invoke my privileges and rights under the Bill of Rights and the
14th amendment to following questions along the same subject.
Mr. Pool. You are not pleading the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Stoner. Yes, Your Honor, I have stated that previously. I am
pleading the 5th and the 4th and, to be specific, if it pleases the chair-
man, I refuse on the grounds that to do so might tend to incriminate
me, and I also refuse by invoking all of my rights and privileges under
the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th amendments to the Con-
3806 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
stitution of the United States of America, and I understood you on
Monday you preferred for witnesses to state on f ollowup questions
Mr. Pool. That is correct, but when you start particularizing an
amendment you had better put in the fifth amendment, also. If you
want to say "I refuse on the grounds previously stated," that is all
right, but if you add the 14th amendment like you did awhile ago you
had better add the 5th amendment.
In this particular case you do not have legal right, according to the
committee, and I order and direct you to produce these documents
called for in the subpena and at the request of the interrogator in the
representative capacity stated in the subpena.
Mr. Stoner. So there will be no misunderstanding in regard to all
of the subpena duces tecum, it was my intention on request and orders
to produce and on all requests and orders to produce on those to fol-
low, to refuse on the grounds that to do so might tend to incriminate
me and I also refuse by invoking all of my rights and privileges under
the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th amendments to the Con-
stitution of the United States and, further, on the ground that to do
so would constitute a waiver of my right to invoke my rights and
privileges under the Bill of Eights and the 14th amendment on ques-
tions to follow.
Mr. Pool. Your reasons are rejected.
(At this point Representative Weltner entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, in 1942, at the age of 18 or 19, did you
become a kleagle or organizer of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in
Chattanooga, Tennessee ?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so might
tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to answer by invoking all of
my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th,
and 14th amendments to the Constitution of the United States of
America. I further respectfully refuse on the ground that to do so
would constitute a waiver of my right to use and to invoke my con-
stitutional rights and privileges on further questions.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, with the abandonment of the Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan, did you become an organizer of the Associated
Klans of America ?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Is that all right, sir?
Mr. Pool. Yes, it is.
Mr. Appell. In 1945, did you create an organization known as the
Stoner Anti- Jewish Party ?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Did you later change the name of that organization
to the Christian Anti- Jewish Party ?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr, Appell. Mr. Stoner, in January of 1950, were you expelled
from Chattanooga Klavern No. 317 of the Associated Klans of Amer-
ica for making a motion at a Klavern meeting to throw all Jews out
of Chattanooga, Tennessee?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3807
Mr. Stoner. I respectfully refuse to answer on all of the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, in 1959, did you create an organization
known as the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, I hand you an application for a post office
box in the name of the Christian Anti-Jewish Party, the application
stating the name of the applicant to be J. B. Stoner.
I hand you this application and ask you if it is your signature that
appears on the copy of the document ?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
(Document marked "Jesse Stoner Exhibit No. 1" appears on p.
3808.)
Mr. Appell. When you moved your seat of operation to Atlanta,
Georgia, and formed the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan,
did you use this same post office box as the official mailing address of
the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell, Mr. Stoner, was Edward Fields associated with you
in the Christian Anti- Jewish Party and the Christian Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. This application for a post office box that I showed
you, Mr. Stoner, lists in what appears to be the same handwriting as
your signature, references Edward Fields, Post Office Box 676, At-
lanta, and there is a response from Mr, Fields to the Post Office De-
partment saying: "Yes, I know J. B. Stoner to be responsible and
trustworthy,"
Due to the fact that you have reviewed the document, is that which
I have stated to you factual ?
Mr. Stoner, I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated,
Mr. Appell. Mr, Stoner, what knowledge do you possess of the mak-
ing of detonating devices, using as a base dynamite ?
Mr, Stoner, I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated,
Mr, Appell, Mr, Stoner, on September 15, 1963, were you in Birm-
ingham, Alabama?
Mr, Stoner, I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated,
Mr, Appell, Mr, Stoner, on September 15, 1963, there was a detona-
tion of an explosive device which damaged the 16th Street Baptist
Church in Birmingham, Alabama, damaging the church and killing
four young Negro parishioners.
Do you possess any firsthand knowledge of either the planning, the
making of the explosive device, or the identity of the individuals
involved in planning the explosive device on the 16th Street Baptist
Church property?
Mr, Stoner, I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
3808 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Jesse Stoner Exhibit No. 1
^ . . ' • - ■ - . .i8si--.a Box No „
"t^l?^' ■ APPLICATION F0O0ST-CFFIC£ BOX -\ -'"
yj^he under»igne<l hereby applies for the use of a box in the post ofilce at ..G.<^fiT:i.<r:^fsr^7:^.Y^.7^- )
^:^C£r:?^j.-:^dL^ „ , -. and agree* ^
to comply wttfi-lh'e postal regulation* and rules relative to the renting and use of post-office boxes.
If the box is rented for a corporation, the applicant should write on the lines below the name of the
corporation; if for a firm, the name of the firm and the full name of each of its members ■whose mail is ^^
to be pbced in the box. ^— __,, . • ^ /< y^ ^~Z/~. ; ^
Signature of applicant ...r^L.<f^i,J^,^^^^^^?^j:^.ri^^.!(^?i^^
Character of business .0^. r^fc?^^:rL-C.<-zir<rfC<^-.r..,..-^??j-^^<ST —
Business address .
Residence address 2S^3^Z^^C^t^^^^^.^^^^^
:5^.^.:.4.::.-:u.
f?^T07^^^
vKiaric&TXON OP refe;:. :cE or applicant for eox
- •"< ' C'-^ UNITED STATES POST OFFICE
•■•-■-. Vi,t^-.i. , y Q^ ci- «_ ■ <'S
C^]:^€,^^Zfy.Jl_S^^:^
An application iaij!^ post-office box ta/Eaen hied at ttis o(£ice, with your name as releVence, by —
Name of applicant- J!^-^,.j^^^^s^.^ii. ... '.r.^l'.l.: — fll. — :x^
Character of busines/T... y;<.xrlfk-<^L.C-~. . - ' ,: -1' Llr.r.T.:':!.;.'. /....:..,.;
Business addiess „. ^'l -- ..'...:.--. — »_ .^,...._-
Residonco address^.^.i.3^ ^.„l,^^dh<.:::!-i!^...'.-- — > ■-...:.' .'..^...'-.^l.^..'.'. _
Will you kindly advise tki* office if, in your judgment, the applicant is responsible and trustworthy?
REPLY;
Poetn^oster.
S14S-J' U. I. eOVHKKCKI MmriNt ettizz
..*i^
CStgaatur* oi rctetaoo*} 19 — i$i4S-;
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3809
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, at 2 :31 a.m. on September 25, a small ex-
plosion took place in a Negro residential section of Birmingham.
In response to an alarm issued by citizens, over 50 law enforcement
officers responded and attempted to locate the site of the detonation.
They failed to find where the device was exploded; and 15 or 13
minutes after the original explosion, a shrapnel bomb was exploded in
the same location, this shrapnel bomb believed to have been made by
placing dynamite, nails, nuts and bolts, and other scrap metal into a
can and detonating it.
If the law enforcement officers had found the first explosion, many
would have been injured or killed. Law enforcement officers, whom the
committee has interviewed, are convinced that these two explosions
were set to injure FBI agents and other law enforcement personnel
in retaliation for their vigorous investigation of the 16th Street Bap-
tist Church bombing, including the questioning of many Klan suspects.
Now, Mr. Stoner, do you possess any knowledge of the planning,
the making of the shrapnel bomb, or the identity of individuals in-
volved in planning the two detonating explosive devices which went
off on September 25, 1963 ?
Mr. Stoner. So as to make my grounds for refusal to answer clear,
if I may at this time, I would like to restate what I have already said.
I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so might tend to incrimi-
nate me, and I also refuse to answer by invoking all of my rights and
privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th amend-
ments to the Constitution of the United States of America. I further
respectfully refuse on the ground that to do so would constitute a
waiver of my right to use and to invoke my constitutional rights and
privileges on further questions.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, in view of the witness' claim of privilege
and his consistent refusal to answer my questions, I present to the
committee the results of an investigation as it pertains to Mr. Stoner.
Mr. Pool. And you are under oath ; is that correct ?
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir; and these are the results of our investigation,
and by no means complete.
Jesse Benjamin Stoner was born April 13, 1924, in Walker County,
Georgia. He was educated at the McCallie School and Chattanooga
High School, Chattanooga, Tennessee, and the Atlanta Law School.
He was admitted to practice law before the Fulton County Superior
Court on February 2, 1952.
In 1942, Stoner became a kleagle or organizer for Tennessee for the
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan by Imperial Wizard James Colescott.
His address was 204 Temple Court Building, Chattanooga, Tennessee.
With the disbanding of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, he
became associated with the Associated Klans of America.
In 1944, while a Klan official, he filed a petition with the U.S. House
of Representatives urging the Houses to pass a resolution recognizing
the fact that "the Jews are the children of the devil, and that, conse-
quently, they constitute a grave menace to the United States of
America."
In 1945 Stoner formed the Anti-Jewish Party. In 1952 he
joined with Edward R. Fields in forming the Christian Anti- Jew-
ish Party and gave to himself the title of arch leader.
3810 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
In July 194:6, the Atlanta Constitution printed an interview with
Stoner by Jim Furniss. This article describes Stoner as thinking
Hitler was too moderate and the article quoted Mr. Stoner as stating
that he and his men planned to be more modern about it, using gas,
electric chairs, shooting, hanging, and "whatever way seems most
appropriate" in eliminating all Semitic people except Christian Jews.
(Document marked "Jesse Stoner Exhibit No. 2-A." See p. 3820.)
Stoner, a member of the Chattanooga Klavern No. 317 of the Asso-
ciated Klans of America, was expelled in January 1950 for making
a motion at a Klan meeting to throw all Jews out of Chattanooga,
Tennessee.
In July 1959, Stoner rented Post Office Box 45 in Louisville, Ken-
tucky, for the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. He is known
to have advised that he started the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan with people who were in bad financial condition. However,
he felt that after the organization's activities became known it would
attract a higher class of individual.
Stoner gave himself the title of Imperial Wizard and arch leader
of the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
In May of 1960, the first issue of the Klan publication entitled Klan
Bulletin^ an official publication of the Christian Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan appeared. The June 1960 issue disclosed that the address
of the Christian Knights was Post Office Box 48, Atlanta, Georgia.
This post office box was rented in 1952 by J. B. Stoner in the name
of the Christian Anti-Jewish Party.
In October 1959, Stoner attacked the then larp-as<^ Klan orfranization,
the U.S. Klans, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Incorporated, as being
Jew dominated and controlled by the Anti-Defamation League of
B'nai B'rith.
On October 24, 1959, Eldon Edwards, the Imperial Wizard of the
U.S. Klans, replied to Stoner's attack by stating that he possessed
evidence that the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan advocates
violence.
While a leader of the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan,
Stoner became affiliated with the National States Rights Party. In
August 1959, Stoner and Edward R. Fields, an associate with Stoner
in the Christian Anti-Jewish Party, the Christian Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan, and the National States Rights Party, decided to hold
rallies in protesting the contemplated integration of the Orchard Villa
Elementary School in Miami, Florida. Stoner spoke at rallies held in
Jacksonville on August 29 and West Palm Beach on September 5, 1959.
Stoner planned methods for preventing white parents from sending
their children to the Orchard Villa Elementary School.
In July 1963, Stoner spoke at a rally of the National States Rights
Party outside Birmingham, Alabama. In the course of his speech he
told the audience how to make a bomb by using a candle to regulate
the amount of time which would elapse, depending on the length of the
candle, from the time the candle was lit till the bomb exploded. In giv-
ing these instructions Stoner advised his listeners that the methods that
he described were taken from instructions given by FBI to one of its
plants within the Klan organizations in order to bring discredit to tlie
Klan.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3811
Stoner was known to be in Birmingham, Alabama, immediately
prior to, and including, September 15, 1963. He was known to be in
Birmingham in March and April of 1965, when a series of bombs
were uncovered in that city.
Stoner was in and out of Jacksonville, Florida, between January 19,
1963, and November 9, 1963, participating in a series of Klan rallies
along with Connie Lynch, Gene Fallaw, and Don Cothran. This
group advocated shooting of Negroes and violent night-riding.
At a rally on November 9, 1963, at Jacksonville, Stoner, during a
speech in which he attacked Barry Goldwater, Nelson Rockefeller,
and President Kennedy, characterized the FBI as Jew-Communist
stooges. He stated that the Jews and Negroes are Communists and the
FBI is led and controlled by Communists.
On May 2, 1964, Stoner spoke at a United Florida Ku Klux Klan
rally on U.S. Highway 17 at Cedar Bay Road in Jacksonville, Florida.
He stated the civil rights legislation was sponsored by Communists,
that FBI agents were Communist secret police, and that the Director
of the FBI was following a policy set down by the Communist Party.
He described President Johnson as being no better than Khrushchev.
In June 1964, Stoner was in St. Augustine, Florida, directing and
leading Connie Lynch, Holstead "Hoss" Manucy, and members of the
Klan largely from St. Augustine and Jacksonville, Florida, Klaverns
of the United Florida Ku'KIux Klan. The Legislative Investigation
Committee of the Florida Legislature in a report entitled "Racial and
Civil Disorders in St. Augustine" made repeated references to the
activities of J. B. Stoner in St. Augustine, Florida. (Eunice Fallaw
Exhibit No. 1.)
In 1965, Stoner's principal areas of activities had been in Ohio, Ala-
bama, Florida, and Louisiana, particularly in Bogalusa in July 1965.
Stoner's theme during speeches made has been primarily against the
FBI and the Negroes.
In Jacksonville, Florida, on May 2, 1965, he described J. Edgar
Hoover as a homosexual, Jew-dominated Communist.
At Bogalusa [according to a July 11, 19^6, New York Times article],
he stated :
The nigger is not a human being. He is somewhere between the white man
and the ape. We don't believe in tolerance. We don't believe in getting along
with our enemy, and the nigger is our enemy.
(Document marked "Jesse Stoner Exhibit No. 2-B." See p. 3821.)
At Anniston, Alabama, he shared the platform on August 31, 1965,
with Connie Lynch whom he shared the platform with many times at
other rallies located in Florida and other Southern cities.
Lynch [as reported in the Louisville, Ky., Courier- Journal, Decem-
ber 3, 1965] told the crowd—
if it takes killing to get the niggers out of the white man's streets and to protect
our constitutional rights, I say yes — kill them.
(Document marked "Jesse Stoner Exhibit No. 2-C." See p. 3822.)
This information, Mr. Chairman, indicates that Mr. Stoner possesses
additional information which is both pertinent and relevant to this
inquiry and would materially aid the Congress in enacting remedial
legislation.
3812 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Stoner, you have heard the sworn statement of the
committee's investigator.
You now have the opportunity to reply to any portion of that state-
ment, to confirm or challenge the accuracy of the information, or to
explain any part of that statement.
In addition, you may, if you desire, offer any other matter the com-
mittee may deem pertinent to this inquiry. Do you have any
statement ?
Mr. Stoner. I respectfully refuse to answer on all of the grounds
previously stated and especially emphasize the part of the previously
stated reasons for not answering wherein, if I answered this question,
1 would be waiving my right to invoke my constitutional rights and
privileges in replying to further questions.
Mr. Pool. And you are invoking the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Stoner. Yes, I am.
Mr. Pool. I must inform you, absent your rebuttal or other facts
that may come to the attention of the committee, this committee will
rely upon the accuracy of its investigation.
If you have no further statement, continue, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, the committee's information is that in
November of 1964 you were elected to the position of vice chairman of
the National States Rights Party at a convention held in Mobile,
Alabama.
Is that information factual, sir ?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on the grounds that to do so might
tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to answer by invoking all of
my rights and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and
14 amendments to the Constitution of the United States of
America.
I further respectfully refuse on the ground that to do so would con-
stitute a waiver of my right to use and to invoke my constitutional
rights and privileges on further questions.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, the Thunderbolt^ the official publication
of the National States Rights Party, issue No. 74, dated February
1966, contains a story to the effect that you had been subpenaed to
appear before the committee. The statement says that "even though
he is not a member of the Klan," Mr. Stoner is a "friend of the Klan."
Mr. Stoner, can you explain to the committee what is meant by your
being a friend of the Klan ?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
(Document marked "Jesse Stoner Exhibit No. 3" appears on p.
3813.)
Mr. Pool. Counsel, the article you referred to there — read the head-
line on that.
Mr. Appell. It says, Mr. Chairman, "Flash-Bulletin Un-American
Rats" — R-a-t-s — "Subpoena Atty. J. B. Stoner In Giant Smear
Campaign."
Now, Mr. Stoner, at your rallies at Anniston, Alabama, you have
shared the speaking platform with Kenneth Adams. I put it to you
as a fact that Kenneth Adams was the exalted cyclops in Anniston,
Alabama, of a Klavern of the Dixie Klans.
I ask you to affirm or deny the fact.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
3813
Jesse Sto'ner Exhibit No. 3
[The Thunderbolt, February 1966]
Flash-Bulletin
Un-American Rats Subpoena
Atty. J.B. Stoner In Giant
Smear Campaign
J. B. Stoner, a leader in the
National States Rights Parry, has
been subpoenaed to appear before
the un-American Committee in
Washington, even though he is not
a member at the Klan. Mr. Ston-
er is a friend of the Klan and
sometimes represents Klansmen
In court. Obviously, the dreg
committee has no respect for the
Sixth Amendment part of the BUI
of Rights which gives Klansmen
the right to have an attorney and
a privileged relationship between
attorney and client. Stoner will
uphold the Bill of Rights and the
committee be damned.
The committee Is operating as
a bunch of pimps for the Jew-
controlled, race-mixing FBI and
plans to lie about Stoner and
smear him with the kind of lies
that the FBI fairies have already
planted in magazines about him.
The House Committee protects
communism and has become a
vital part of the communist- Jew-
ish revolution l;i America. The
illicit committee needs to be
flushed. To hades vvrlth iti
Is Willis An Ape?
The Tlioriderbolt has received
a report rha: nigger-loving rd^ln
E. Willis, chairman of the red,
hatchet-job un-American com-
mittee is part ape. We call upon
Louisiana readers who have the
detailed facts to rush them to
us. Since Willis is for the
negroes and hates White people,
he would undoubtedly not object
to his racial ancestry being re-
vealed since it would get him
more negro votes at the next"
election, Willis, the race-mix-
i. B. STOMlOt
Ing fanatic, is misusing a Con-
gressional committee in an ef-
fort to smash all opposition to
the communist revolution in
America. He hates all White
people, both Catholics and Pro-
testants, The NSRP calls upon
its White Catholic and White
[-■rotestant members in Louisiana
to denounce Willis every day and
to vote the degenerate scoundrel
out of Congress. Remember, rush
us all facts you have about the
ape ancestors of Willis.
59-222 O— 67— pt. 5-
-22
3814 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that he is a director in the
Anniston area of the National States Rights Party.
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that Frank Rotella, an orga-
nizer for the United Klans of America, New Jersey, is a State director
of the National States Rights Party for the State of New Jersey.
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that Roy Everett Frankhouser,
the Grand Dragon of the United Klans of America in Pennsylvania,
operated as an organizer for the National States Rights Party.
Mr, Stoner, I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that Gene Wilson of Jackson-
ville, Florida, is a director of the National States Rights Party for
Duval County, Florida.
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Stoner, did you write this article here that he just
read the headline for ?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Pool. Well, the "rats" are the Ku Klux Klan and the National
States Rights Party, not Congress. This is a committee of Congress
and appropriations for the conduct of this investigation are approved
by Congress, so you are insulting the people of the United States by
attacking and calling this committee names and trying to smear them.
In so doing, you are smearing the representatives of the people of the
United States.
Do you have any statement to make ?
Mr, Stoner. I have no statement to make and refuse to answer,
respectfully refuse to answer, on all of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Pool. The funny thing about it is the same part of this publi-
cation attacked Fulton Lewis and several other people, and it shows
the irresponsibility of this type of publication, I got one at my home
yesterday, including four petitions for the recall of our chairman, Mr,
Willis, and that is an insult to me to get that at my home, I do not
know anything that you are doing with it except hurting yourself, be-
cause anybody intelligent realizes what kind of smear campaign this
is by the Ku Klux Klan indirectly.
That is why I asked you if you wrote these articles,
Mr, Stoner, Are you putting a question to me ?
Mr, Pool. I will put it to you again.
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Pool, So you are one of the leaders of the Ku Klux Klan that
when this hearing first started back in October, many of them said,
"We want to tell all and we want to show the Ku Klux Klan is a great
organization and we want the American people to know all about us,"
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3815
and you are refusing to answer questions to enlighten the American
people. And. what you are doing is letting the American people know
just what a bunch of dirty rats you are.
Mr. AsHBROOK. I notice in the article to which reference has been
made they particularly single out our chairman, who cannot be with us,
for attack and, I might add, abuse.
It says, and I would quote :
Willis, the race-mixing fanatic, is misusing a Congressional committee in an
effort to smash all opposition to the communist revolution in America. He hates
all White people, both Catholics and Protestants. * * *
Mr. Willis happens to be a Catholic and, in the first place, he does
not hate anyone and he particularly would not hate Catholics.
This is an effort to appeal to the very worst of people. Would you
care to comment about this general request that you have sent to people
who read this spurious document to — "rush us all facts you have about
the ape ancestors of Willis."
Mr. Stoner. Mr. Ashbrook, I respectfully refuse to answer on all
of the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Buchanan. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Pool. Yes, Mr. Buchanan.
Mr. Buchanan. Mr. Stoner, in addition to the obviously false and
slanderous statements which have been mentioned here this morning,
this Thunderbolt newspaper rather consistently makes slanderous
statements about various people. The other day, we read what was
said about the FBI and another Member of Congress. You called the
members of this subcommittee pro-Communist and anti-Constitution
and dangerous enemies to America. You singled out individuals like
our chairman and this member for slanderous attack.
How is it that you as an attorney, knowing full well the law cover-
ing libel and slander, can permit this newspaper, with which we must
assume you are associated, to print the opposite of the truth, as the
truth, as regularly as is the case with this publication ?
It seems to me that the regular production of slander and of vicious
slander like this is just a little bit dangerous. Don't you think so?
Mr. Stoner. Mr. Buchanan, since you are asking me a question di-
rected to me as an attorney, in refusing to answer on all of the pre-
vious
Mr. Buchanan. I am not talking to anybody else's attorney, but I
am talking to you as an individual and as connected with this or-
ganization.
Mr. Stoner. I respectfully refuse to answer on the grounds that
to do so would tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse to answer by
invoking all of my rights under the 1st, 4th, 5th, and I especially em-
phasize the 6th amendment to the Constitution of the United States
which I now respectfully invoke, and the 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th
amendments; and also respectfully refuse to answer on the grounds
that to do so would constitute a waiver of my right to use and to in-
voke my constitutional rights and privileges in reply to further ques-
tions.
Mr. Pool. I want to point out another thing. I notice on page 10
of this publication that you have even gone so far as to get on Billy
James Hargis.
3816 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE IJ.S.
"It is easy to understand why Hargis is for the Jews and Negroes
and hates us White people * * *." I am quoting from the text, but this
shows the mixed-up philosophy of this group. They don't know ex-
actly who they are for, but they are gonig to jump on anybody who
does not agree with them, and I suppose this includes violence and
doing away with people.
This is the most flagi-ant example of the harm the Ku Klux Klan
and the National States Eights Party is creating in this country.
Do you have any statement to make to that ?
Mr. Stoner. I respectfully refuse to answer on all of the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Apfell. Mr. Stoner, with respect to your activity in Ohio, have
you worked with Mrs. Eloise Witte of Cincinnati, Ohio ?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Appell. I put it to you as a fact that Mrs. Eloise Witte was
an official of the National States Rights Party in the State of Ohio.
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
(At this point Mr. Ashbrook left the hearing room.)
Mr. Appell. You were present in the hearing room the other day
when Mr. Richard Hanna testified. Are you acquainted with Mr.
Richard Hanna?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Pool. The committee will stand in recess for 10 minutes.
(Whereupon, at 11 :15 a.m., a brief recess was taken. Subcommittee
members present at time of recess: Representatives Pool, Weltner,
and Buchanan. Members present when hearings resumed : Repre-
sentatives Pool and Buchanan, of the subcommittee, and also Repre-
sentative Ashbrook.)
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, in September of 1965, the committee sub-
penaed before it one Robert Pittman Gentry. Mr. Gentry advised
the staff that his attorney was Mr. Howell Washington of Murfrees-
boro, Tennessee, and that he had also obtained legal advice in Wash-
ing'ton, D.C. According to the time stamp — September 28, 1965 — the
Clerk of the House received a petition, which reads as follows :
PETITION TO THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
UNITED STATES CONGRESS
WASHINGTON, D.C.
Re : The Investigation by the House Comm. Un-American Activities of the Ku
Klux Klan and my client, Mr. Robert Gentry.
Gentlemen :
Today, September 27, 1965, my client and friend, Mr. Robert Gentry testified
before the House Un-American Activities Committee as a result of a subpoena
having been served upon him.
Upon my legal advice, Mr. Robert Gentry invoked the Fifth Amendment to
the Constitution when being questioned. As a result of his exercising said
Constitutional right, Chairman Willis and Committee Investigator Ray
McConn
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3817
who is an investigator with the committee although his real name is
McConnon —
threatened him with contempt, thereby violating his Constitutional rights. In
an effort to bulldoze Mr. Gentry, Chairman Willis and Investigator MeConn
mentioned other cases where witnesses had been indicted for failing to answer
questions of the Committee, failing to point out to Mr. Gentry that the Fifth
Amendment was not invoked in the other cases.
Mr. Gentry will continue to use the Fifth Amendment because the purpose of
the Committee is to obviously try to get him to incriminate himself and, under
the Constitution and consistent Supreme Court rulings, I can guarantee Mr.
Gentry that he will never be convicted. Nobody has ever been convicted of using
the Fifth Amendment before a Congressional Committee and Chairman Willis
undoubtedly knows it. The Fifth Amendment was placed in the Constitution
by the founding fathers for the benefit of American patriots and now is the time
for them to use it when efforts are being made to incriminate them.
WHEREFORE, I hereby petition you to pass a resolution reprimanding Chair-
man Willis, the House Committee on Un-American Affairs and Investigator Ray
McConn for misusing a Congressional Committee to persecute a patriotic White
Christian American Citizen and to order them to cease and desist. The Commit-
tee should be upholding the Constitution instead of trying to wreck it.
Respectfully submitted,
/s/ J. B. Stoner
J. B. Stoner
Attorney at Law
Marion Building
P.O. Box 184
Augusta, Georgia
Phone 724-0752, area code 404
(At this point Mr. Weltner entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, the full committee has voted to release
the executive testimony of Mr. Robert Pittman Gentry taken on Sep-
tember 29, two days after the date which the petition to the House of
Representatives advises that he appeared before the committee.
With the permission of the Chair, I hand you a copy of this execu-
tive testimony. I invite your attention to review it and I ask the
Chair for a 5-minute recess in order to permit you an opportunity
to review it, after which I would like to ask you certain questions.
Mr. Pool. Did you state that the full committee had ordered the
release of this for purposes of this investigation ?
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. The permission is granted. You may examine it, and
we will stand in recess for 5 minutes to see if he has enough time to
examine it. If he needs more time, more time will be granted.
The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.
(Whereupon, a brief recess was taken. Members present at time
of recess : Representatives Pool, Weltner, and Buchanan, of the sub-
committee, and also Representative Ashbrook.)
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
(Subcommittee members present: Representatives Pool, Weltner,
and Buchanan.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, have you had enough time yet?
Mr. Stoner. No, sir; I am on page 1011. I am scanning tlirough it
in an effort to speed it up.
Mr. Pool. The committee will recess a little longer so you may
finish reviewing the transcript.
How much more time do you need, Mr. Stoner ?
3818 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Stoner. I am at page 1033 and it goes to 1044.
Mr. Pool. Do you desire more time ?
Mr. Stoner. Yes, sir; if it pleases the committee.
Mr. Pool. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Stoner, have you had time to examine it?
Mr. Stoner. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Stoner, I want to point out to you, first, that that testi-
mony is being made public and that your petition which you sent to
the House of Representatives was received by the Clerk of the House
of Representatives on September 28 at 2:15 p.m., according to the
date and time stamp that the House Clerk uses on receipt of documents
such as this.
Mr. Gentry testified on September 29, the next day, so you are ac-
cusing this committee and Mr. Willis of things that had not happened
at the time you sent your petition in, the time it was received by the
Clerk, a day before Mr. Gentry testified. It is obviously a concocted
plot to discredit the committee.
There have been many false accusations in this petition and you
know that and you signed it, and your signature is on here. You knew
it because the man had not even testified and you know it also from
reading the transcript which you just read. And there is not one
iota of testimony in there or any related facts to prove your statement
that he was denied his rights under the fifth amendment.
Anybody can examine it. It is going to be made public to prove
that point. Do you have any statement to make ?
Mr. Stoner. I especially, at this time, would like to emphasize I
refuse to answer in accordance to the sixth amendment of the Con-
stitution of the United States which establishes a
Mr. Pool. I have not asked you a question.
I asked you if you had a statement to make so you do not have to
invoke any kind of amendment. Do you have no further statement
to make ?
Mr. Stoner. I have no statement to make on the ground to do so
would waive my right to invoke my constitutional rights and privi-
leges to further questions.
Mr. Pool. You do not want to answer or make any statement: is
that correct ?
Mr. Stoner. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Pool. Go ahead, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, did you note from a review of this tran-
script that it was reported by the Alderson Reporting Company,
whose certification on this document designates that the date of the
hearing was Wednesday, September 29, 1965 ?
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on all the grounds — I refuse to an-
swer especially in regard to invoking the sixth amendment of priv-
ileged relationship between attorney and client. And I also refuse to
answer because to do so would tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse
to answer on the grounds of the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9^\, 10th, and
14th amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America.
I further respectfully refuse on the ground that to do so would
waive my rights to invoke my constitutional rights and privileges —
would waive my right to invoke the constitutional rights and privi-
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3819
leges to further questions and also I emphasize the privilege of attor-
ney and client, under which the law forbids me to talk about something
in regard to a confidential relationship between attorney and client.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Stoner, in my opinion, the same person who wrote
this inaccurate, incorrect, and fraudulent petition to the House of Rep-
resentatives wrote a great deal of this stuff in this Thunderbolt here,
in which you accuse the committee and our chairman of very many
scurrilous and insidious things.
I am not going to repeat some of the things you have in here, but it
is a terrible situation when you use the press to do things like this.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stoner, did you note in your review of this testi-
mony on page 1009 the chairman made a statement to Mr. Gentry
which read:
Let me tell you this further : We are after the facts. The facts are important.
Somebody must assemble them. This subcommittee has been ordered by the full
committee to conduct this investigation. The House of Representatives has sup-
plied funds to conduct it. We are duty-bound to get the facts. In getting the
facts, we don't intend to use tricks against anybody or to trick you into any
situation that you feel might possibly involve you. We don't intend any such
thing, if that affords you any consolation or relief. We don't intend to trick
you. But on the other hand, people in America, generally speaking, are under a
certain obligation to cooperate with their Government and the committees of
Congress.
'I understand the way you feel, but ultimately you will find that the one thing
that you can rely on is your guarantees under the Federal Constitution. Those
are not to be bargained away. I could not bargain it away or do anything to
deprive you of that right. That is your ultimate protection, and you have that
right at all times, you and any and all people who appear before this committee
or any other committee of the Congress or any court or grand jury or petit jury,
judge, or anything else.
In light of that statement, Mr. Stoner, can you explain to the com-
mittee why the Thunderbolt in its issue of October 1965, dealing with
the petition that was filed with the House of Representatives, states :
This committee is being used to pry into the secrets of the Klan so as to break up
that organization and try and entrap said witnesses into situations where they
will be tricked into getting themselves in trouble. * * *
Mr. Stoner. I refuse to answer on the ground that to do so niight
tend to incriminate me, and I also refuse by invoking all of my rights
and privileges under the 1st, 4th, 5th, especially the 6th amendment,
also the 8th, 9th, 10th, and 14th amendments to the Constitution of the
United States, and further respectfully refuse to answer because to do
so would waive my right to invoke my constitutional rights and privi-
leges in response to further questions.
(Document marked "Jesse Stoner Exhibit No. 4" appears on p.
3823.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the staff has no further questions to ask
Mr. Stoner.
I ask that the documents which support the statement of investiga-
tion, the Petition to the House of Representatives, and the testimony of
Mr. Gentry be introduced in the record at this point.
(Documents supporting statement of investigation introduced on
pp. 3810 and 3811 and marked "Jesse Stoner Exhibits Nos. 2-A through
2-C" appear on pp. 3820-3822. Petition to House of Representatives
previously marked "Robert Gentry Exhibit No. 1." (See p. 3667.)
For executive testimony of Mr. Gentry, see pp. 3831-3852.)
3820
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Jesse Stoner Exhibit No. 2-A
[The Atlanta Coiislilulioii, Ju\y 5. 1946]
'NOT A CRACKPOT-A PRODIGY'
Tennessee's Klan Kleagle Only 22.
But Has He Mass Murder Plan?
By JIM PTRVISS
Near the Tennessee border, In
the quiet of the North CeorRja
hill country, »ii intense, pimply-
f»ced younif man is syslpmatically
planninR the mass miinler of hu-
man trt'inRs on a scale which
makes Nazi Ccrmnny scorn » ha
ven for the oppressed by compari-
»on.
Although only 12 yean old.
Jesse B. StonT. the Kleagle for
me Ku Klux Klan m Tennessee,
ill considered no i.iikpol by fel-
low Klansmeii who udmirr liim as
■ prodigy for his iiina/ing feat of
nrginiring the hooded oidcr
throuRhout the Slate
Admitting he thinks Hitler was
Ux' mmlerate, Sloiier. wilh n rjuKk
ut;1e laugli. explains th.it he and
his men plan to be "tnoTt modem
about It," using gas, electric chain,
shdoting, hanging — "Whatever way
seems most appropriate" — in elim-
inating all Semitic peoples except
Christian Jew.s. These he would
settle in another land — not Pales-
tine.
BEGAN CAREER IN 1942
Stoner's career as a Klan hero
began In IM2 when he was given
llie title of Kleagle by Imperial
Wizard James Colescott, head of
the organization for the United
States. The young man relates
that he Joined the Klan since it
seemed imprudent during the war
to as.soei.itc himself with some of
the other urKanizations whose
leaders then were being arrested
for .•.edition.
Interviewed ut his home. Stoner,
a pudRy little man with close-
cropped h.iir and red-rimmed eyes,
spoke freely of his dream for a
new Amerirn. He explained that
the Republican and Democratic
parties were poor places for a man
who Is attempting to work with
prejudice.
"Look what happened to Ham
Fish in New York. The first thing
he knew, the leaders of both par-
ties were after him."
As a consequence, Stoner plans
to form a third political party with
a nucleus of Klansmen which will
deal with what he calls racial and
rellRioiis problems in a wholeaale,
if ruthless, manner. He will ad-
mit women becauae they arc
"more gullible, Muler to fool."
BS8ENCB OP NEW FARTT
The essence of the new part>
will be "to make being a Jaw i
crime, punishable by death."
"We'll just take them out and
km tliem," ha grinned. "That may
sound a little •xtren* but cthai
cooDtrles hava- dona it."
In furtherance of thcae aims,
Stoner has had a stamp made
marked "Down with the Jews,"
which he prints on all letters, "ex-
cept when I'm writing to Govern-
ment offices, of course." He also
hopes to substitute this stamp for
"sincerely yours" In all corre-
spondence by members of his
party.
Regarding Negroes, Stoner
blandly suggest* all colored peo-
ple be relocated in Africa "where
we can send them tome Cadillacs
and make them happy." He would
like similar action to be taken
with Japanese, Chinese and
Southern Europeans, whom be
does not consider white.
The country as it Is now la not
much to Stoner's liking. He teea
President Truman as a traitor to
the principles for which he, Ston-
er, stands. In a letter to Stetson
Kennedy, author of a soon-to-ba-
publlshed book on Fasclstlc or-
ganizations entitled "Southern Ex-
posure," Stoner went so far as to
write;
"Congress Should Impeach Pres-
ident Truman for betraying Amer-
ica to the Jews."
HITS SUPREME COURT
He has similar things to aay
about the Supreme Court, particu-
larly Charles Evans Hughes,
whom,he pictures in most tincom-
pUmentary terms for his attempts
to alleviate racial tensions. The
Nation's sedition trials during the
war also are indicative of how the
country is being run. Stoner opin-
ed. In this connection he later
mentioned ttiat his Idea of the
greatest living American is Col.
Eugene Nelson Sanctuary, now
undei^ a double indictment for m-
dlUon in Washington.
Poesessed of o shrewd, quick
mind, he has learned much from
his association with Klan officials
and his career as a Klan organizer.
Concerning the internal politics of
the Klaiv he remarked that Im-
perial wizard James Colescott,
leader of the Klan Corporation
whose charter Georgia now Is at-
tempting to annul, is purpoaoiy
keeping hlmse^ in the background
these days.
.ccording to Stoner. Colescott
iizes that the Klan Corporation
Is a dead Issue unless it Is able to
pay off the huge tax assessment
slapped on it In 1944 by the Treas-
ury Department, in the Associa-
tion of Georgia Klans, however,
Stoner sees a means whereby the
organization can continue to oper-
ate without the fovernment walk-
ing In.
"If the Klan la organized State
by Slate the way Green has done
in Georgia, the government can't
go Into the Atlanta headquarter*
and find out what's going on in
California or Illinois."
OWN HISTORY
Stoner's own history with the
hooded order also gives some in-
dication of the present status of
Klan affairs After Colescott
suspended activity of the Klan on
a national basis In 1944, Stoner
continued to operate as a organ-
izer. Since he was not yet 21. he
lould not rent a post office box
In Ills own name for communica-
tion purposes and therefore uted
the name of R. W. Byerly.
Leaning against a bank of poison
oak — "Poison oak doesn't bother
me" — Stoner steadfastly refused
to have his face photographed.
"After all. It would be kind of
dangerous having people 1 don't
know recognizing me on the
street," he said, explaining his
penchant for Invisibility.
In December of last yeer.
Stone, who suffers from a Coeb-
bels like limp and sinus trouble,
decided to go to Florida for his
health At the •ams time, ha said,
his Tennessee Klan posts ware tak-
en over by Green, who chartered
them In the name of the Associa-
tion of Georgia Ktans.
"Of course I could run Green
out whenever I wanted to," Stoner
confided.
Regarding a possible rift be-
tween Green and Colescott, on
the grounds that Oreen was in po-
sition tn take control of the Klan
from his former l)ois, Stoner was
certain that Georgia, Tennessee
and Kloridn — and probably most
of the country — "would go for
Coleiicutt" It the Isaue were ever
liroiight to H head
At the moment, Stoner 1« engag
rd In Kclllng copies of "The Pro
tocol, of 7.ioii," a bitterly »ntl
Semitic pamphlet whclh received
Hient currency in Europe through
the efforts of the late Adolph Hit
ler The fact that he charges t2
for this brochure and has stamped
his favorite epithet against the
Jews on the Inside of each enve-
lope In which the pamphlet la
mailed may have laid him open
to action by the Department of
Justice
C'HATTANOOOA COMPLAINS
In Chattunnoga. for exanu>le,
local citizens complained to the
Post Office Department and the
iniiller was referred ' to the Jus
lire Depftrlmenl In Washington In
May for a decision on the legality
of Stoner's us-? of the mails.
Undaunted, Stoner soon will
have another book availablei for
distribution which he himself has
written. He described It as his ef-
fort to disprove certain theses on
racial matters by reference to the
Bible. The book, to be printed in
Chattanooga through the auspioea
of an unldeptlfled ChatUnoota
businessman who will tinderwrlie-
all costs of printing and advertit-
Ing, will sell for $3, Stoner added.
The new book is an integral
part of his new party, he said,
both of which will be pushed from
an undercover office. As far as
help goes, he has recruited a book-
keeper and seversl Klansmen to
assist with advertising and mail-
ing. Plans to run a candidate for
Congress In the Third Tennessee
District, however, have been de-
ferred until 1948, he said.
While Stoner it at issue with
the Klan on various points — "I
know Iota of Catholics who are
anti-Jew, so why should I ex-
clude them?" he maintains dote
eonteet with the Klan as a recruit-
int (round for members of hit
new party.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
3821
Jesse Stoner Exhibit No. 2-B
[New York Times, }\i\y 11, 1965]
MODERATES FAIL
TO AID BOGALUSA
Most Remain Silent While
Extremists Hold Sway
By RAY REED
SpeciaJ to The New York Times
BOGALUSA, La., July 10— At
2:30 P.M. yesterday, A. Z.
Young, the president of the
Bogalusa Civic and Voters
League, mounted a speaker's
platform and called off a civil
rights march for w^hich 400
Negroes had assembled.
Mr. Young reluctantly agreed
with the city officials that ten-
sion was high. A street dem-
onstration 24 hours earlier had
ended in violence. The city had
asked him to cancel further
marches.
Thirty minutes later, a young
white man leaned against a post
on a downtown street and said
with satisfaction to a com-
panion, "Well, we scared 'em
off."
The issue was apparently un-
cluttered in the young man's
mind: The whites and the Neg-
roes were in a fight and the
whites had scored a victory.
This vmcomplicated approach
to race relations is not uncom-
mon in Bogalusa. It was en-
couraged tliis week by a pair
of roving white supremacists,
J. B. Stoner and Connie Lynch.
Sponsored by the National
States Rights party, Mr. Stoner
and Mr. Lynch are in Bogalusa
with the same road show they
used to inflame white mobs in
St. Augustine during the sum-
mer of 1963.
'Not a Human Being'
Mr. Stoner stood on a plat-
form at the edge of towm
Thursday night and said:
"The nigger is not a human
being. He is somewhere between
the white man and the ape. We
don't believe In tolerance. We
don't believe in getting along
with our enemy, and the nig-
ger ds our enemy. Every time
a nigger gets a job, that's just
one more job that you can't
have.
"You notice the niggers are
singing, 'I Love Everybody.'
They sure do love everybody,
and especially our white women.
What the nigger really wants
is our white women."
Mr. Stoner is an Atlanta law-
yer who has represented Ku
klux Klansmen in criminal
cases. He once was a self-styled
Imperial Wizard of the Chris-
tian Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan. He was the Vice-Presi-
dential candidate of the National
States Rights party in 1964.
Mr. Lynch Is a Jong-time
associate' of Klan leaders and
is minister of the Church of
Jesus Chrijt Christian, Inc., at
Riverside, CalKf.
At St. Augustine, the two
men helped agitate the white
mobs that attacked Negro
demonstrators in the streets. At
Bogalusa, they are advising
whites to "go into the streets
and stand up for your rights."
They are urging the whites to
arm themselves and store
ammunition.
Audience Reaches 2,000
Almost 1,500 men, women
and children went to hear them
Thursday night. The r-owd was
up to 2,000 last night. This is in
a town with a population of
23,000.
White resentment has intensi-
fied since Thursday, the day
the States Rights party came
to town for an indefinite
stay. That day, a Negro shot a
white man who had attacked
him with his fists during a civil
rights march. The white man is
in a New Orleans hospital, 70
miles south of here across Lake
Ponchartrain, nursing two bul-
let woimds.
The resentment is ma^e worse
by fear. The Negro who fired
the shots is believed to be a
member of the Deacons for De-
fense and Justice, an armed
Negro protective league that
has sprung up in Bogalusa and
other Southern towns in re-
sponse to white terrorism. Most
whites don't want to admit it.
but the Deacons send a chill
down their spines.
Mr. Stoner mentioned the
Deacons in his address last
night in stressing that the
white people had to arm them-
selves.
Meanwhile, on the other side
of town, the Congress of Racial
Equality and its local support-
ing organization, the Bogalusa
Civic and Voters League, con-
tinued to push their drive for
better jobs and less racial dis-
crimination. The drive began
early this year and already the
friction created among resist-
ant whites has resulted in sev-
eral injuries and one death. A
Negro sheriff's deputy was am-
bushed and slain June 2.
The Negro gain?, have been
negUgible. Few jobs have been
added, although the Crown-
Zellerbach Corporation, which
operates a papermill here and
is the town's Ijirgest employer,
has liberalized its policy, but
not enough, the Negroes say.
Restaurants that cater to whites
opened their doors briefly to
Negroes last spring but have
firmly shut them again since
the build-up of tension.
Both Attitudes Stiffen
Attitudes have noticeably
stiffened on both sides.
Gov. John J. McKeithen at-
white man to "the extremists
on both sides.''
"A plague on both their
houses," he said.
The Governor's remark im-
plies that a large moderate
element existe in Bogalusa. The
city's leading moderate. Mayor
Jesse H. cStrer Jr., publicly
contends the same thing, but
privately concedes he is dis-
mayed to find so few of "the
good people" speaking up and
supporting the moderate posi-
tion.
A few weeks ago, a group of
moderates drafted a statement
of belief in law and order. They
began gathering signatures with
the intention of publishing the
statement to show the world
that Bogalusa was not in the
hands of bigots and extremists.
The project has quietly faded
into the background. It is un-
derstood that not enough sign-
atures could be obtained.
Vertrees Young, the city's
No. 1 elder citizen, who headed
the papermill until he retired
several years ago is still a
source of advice and inspiration
in civic matters and visited
Mayor Cutrer Thursday eve-
ning. He sat in the white-
columned City Hall and wept.
He pleaded with the Mayor to
tell him what he could do to
help his unhappy town.
When the Mayor could offer
no satisfactory suggestion, Mr.
Young left City Hall and went
to the National States Rights
party rally on the edge of town.
The old man made his way to
the speaker's platform and stood
shaking his head in anger and
disagreement as Mr. Stoner and
Mr. Lynch instructed the citi-
zens of Bogalusa in "the nigger
problem."
At the end, he asked permis-
sion to speak two minutes in
opposition.
They turned him down, and
he hung his head and went
home.
3822
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Jesse Stoner Exhibit No. 2-C
[Louisville, Ky., Courier -Journal, December 3, 1965]
Defense Lawyer Denounces Jury
White Man Convicted
In Negro Slaying
ANNISTON, Ala. (UPI)— An all-white
jury convicted Hubert Strange of second-
degree murder yesterday for the night-
rider slaying of Negro Willie Brewster
and sentenced him to 10 years in prison.
It was the first time in recent history
that a Southern jury has convicted a
white man of a racial killing.
Strange was speechless.
His attorney wept and denounced the
jurors as "white niggers." The jury was
escorted from the courthouse by state
troopers.
Negro Killed From Car
The all-male jury deliberated more
than 10 hours before returning the ver-
dict at 4:15 p.m. after 20 ballots.
Strange, 25, and two other white men
were indicted for the killing. Brewster
was mortally wounded July 15 by a shot
fired from a passing car as he drove
home from the foundry where he worked.
The other two suspects, Lewis Blevins,
26, and Johnny Defries, 25, will be tried
later.
Strange's attorney. States Rights Parly
olfidal J B. Stoiier, blood in the cour^t-
room with tears streaming down his
cheeks and said, "I was surprised that
a jury of 12 so-called white men would
convict an innocent person on such a
flimsy case."
Stoner charged that Strange was con-
victed by the "so-called blue-ribbon
men" on the jury. He said these business
and professional men were interested
in "the dollar."
They convicted Strange, he said, to
"keep things nice and peaceful."
"I would rather have some good black
niggers than the white niggers on the
jury," he said. Stoner is from Augusta,
Ga.
The jury foreman was Brandon Rig-
ney, a typewriter salesman. He read the
-verdict. The other 11 included four
factory workers, two farmers, a retired
fireman, a banker, a civilian employe at
the Anniston Army Depot, a telephone
repairman and a telephone service fore-
man.
The Southern Christian Leadership
Conference had printed leaflets de-
nouncing an acquittal of Strange and
calling for protest demonstrations. The
leaflets never were handed out.
'Yes— Kill Them'
Circuit Judge Robert Parker will pass
sentence — already fixed in the verdict —
today. Stoner said he would try to get
Strange out of jail then on an appeal
bond.
Judge Parker told the jurors before
they left that "if any attempt to intimi-
date or chastise a juror is made, please
let it be known to the court."
As he lay dying in a hospital, Brewster
said he had never taken part in civil
rights activity. Two hours before he was
shot, Stoner and the Rev. Connie Lynch,
a segregationist lecturer, addressed a
rally in Anniston.
Lynch told the crowd then that "if it
takes killing to get the niggers out of the
white man's streets and to protect our
constitutional rights, I say yes — kill
them."
After Strange's case went to the jury
Wednesday, Judge Parker began hearing
another — unrelated — murder case. The
jury came back during a recess in the
second case. It took the court by surprise.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
3823
Jesse Stoner Exhibit No. 4
[The Thunderbolt, October 1965]
Rrst HnisBMn Takes RHh Amendment
Before Un-American Activities Committee
TTie Home Cowmlttee on Un-
American Activities has slipped
Into the bands of the left-wing
Liberals and Is being used to
persecute Southern White peo-
ple who ar« siandii^ up for the
>«paretl(Bi 61 the races. Tills
was Inevitable with the huge ma-
jority L.B.J, took Into crff Ice with
him diurlng the last election. Two
weeks ago the first Klansman to
take the witness stand (against
his will) refused to answer any
of the prying questions of this
Stacked committee. His name is
Robert Gentry, of Miurphrees-
boro, fenn. He took the Fifth
Amendiiient, and refused to ans-
wer any questions. TTie commit-
tee Is willing to allow leftwingers
the right to use the 'Fifth,' but
anempis to avoid grqnt{j}g the
tain* to rlgJttwing p«trtcKS ^|t«
Mr. Gentry.
BLT, COMMITTEE CHAIR-
MAN WILLIS OF LOUISIANA,
(his true liberal colors now show-
ing) THREATENED AND TRIED
TO COERCE BOB GENTRY INTO
GIVING TESTIMONY. He told
Mr. Gentry that he would be
charged with contempt if he didn't
answer the questions. Then Willis
told a FALSE story of some
Irft -wingers being charged for
contempt for not answering
some time ago and being cited
for contempt. But, what Chair-
man Willis didn't tell Mr. Gentry
was that these reds did not take
the Fifth Amendment, they just
walked out of thee ommtttee hear
Ing without saying anything.
THE GREAT U. S. CONSTITU-
TION GIVES YOUTHERIGHTTO
REFUSE TO GIVE ANY TESTI-
MONY THAT MIGHT IN ANY-
WAY INCRIMINATE YOURSELF.
THAT IS IN THE FIFTH AMEND-
MENT. .WD OUR FOREFA-
THERS WANTED CITIZENS TO
USE IT TO PROTECT THEM-
SELVES FROM .VNY DICTATO-
RIAL TYRANNY AS CONG.. WIL-
LIS IS TRYING TO ESTABLISH.
Attorney J. B. Stoner instructed
Robert Gentry to take the Fifth
Amendment and refuse to answer,
and to stand pat. This Mr. Gentry
did. Mr. Stoner informs this edi-
tor that no man has ever been
convicted of contempt of Con-
gress for taking the Fifth Amend-
ment.
Chairman Willis should
INSTRUn EACH WITNESS OF
HIS INALIENABLE RIGHT TO
TAKE THE FIFTH AMENDMENT
BEFORE ANY QUESTIONS ARE
ASKED. 'This committee is being
used to pry into the secrets of
the Klan so as to break up that
organi7ation and try and entrap
said witnesses into situations
where they will be tricked into
getting themselves In trouble.
J. B. STONER
Klansmen
Being
Threatened
And Intimidated
By Chalfinan
Willis,
Charges Stoner
For these reasons, Atiornt-v J I'..
Stoner has petltioneO the ►•niitc
House of Representatives to re-
buke Chairman Willis and tcsiop
this committee from trying to
run roughshod over the rights of
White people who are st;mdiiig tip
against race-mixing.
3824 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Weltner.
Mr. Weltner. I have no questions.
Mr. Pool. Do you have any questions, Mr. Buchanan ?
Mr. Buchanan. No questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Pool. The witness is excused permanently.
Mr. Weltner?
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Chairman, It is my understanding that, with
the excusal of this witness, there are no further witnesses to be called
in public hearings at least for the time being. That being the case,
I would ask the Chair's permission to submit a brief statement at this
point.
I think we have been here for 9 or 10 weeks in open hearings. That
followed a lengthy investigation, in which the staff and members of
the staff were engaged full time, and many members of the committee
were heavily engaged in some of the executive hearings that preceded
the public hearmgs.
We have now been involved in this endeavor for well over a year
since the matter first came out. A great deal has happened in that
time.
I cannot help but express my desire publicly to commend our dis-
tinguished chairman for his statesmanship and his courage in this
investigation. He has suffered personally politically as a result of it.
The night before last, he and his Louisiana colleague, Mr. Hale Boggs,
were hanged in effigy by the Ku Klux Klan group in the State of
Louisiana. He is the subject of a declaration of political war upon
him as a result of the sulDJect of this investigation, the Klan. He
has been ill, and I know that he would want to be here for the con-
clusion of this matter, but his health prohibits that.
In expressing my lively affections and admiration for him, I also
wish to express my gratitude and admiration for the staff, I think
this committee sometimes is criticized for the size of its staff, but the
work produced and the quality of careful, patient, investigative work
has not been equaled by anything I have seen. As one member of this
committee, the staff is entitled to a substantial amount of credit and
great commendation for its work.
A year ago it was my firm belief that the great majority of South-
erners were far from abiding and agreeing with the Klan outlook
and the Klan mentality. It was my hope a year ago that these hearings
would substantiate that factor for all the world to see. I believe that
has been the case.
I think we have shown that although Klan activity is widespread
to a degree, it exists independent and separate and apart from the
opinions, the outlook, the viewpoint of the vast majority of Southern-
ers— ^the vast majority of white Southerners. I believe the hearings
have shown that.
I think they have done some other things too.
In the first place, we have seen the drastic diminution in Klan ac-
tivity throughout the South. We have seen areas that were Klan
infested, and now they are in a state of dormancy with respect to Klan
action.
As a result of these hearings, I believe there has been a substantial
effect within the Klan itself, brought about by the revelations concern-
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3825
in^ the financial aflfairs of the Klan and the consistent claiming of the
privilege against self-incrimination and the undoubted substantiation
between Klan activity and acts of violence, which have certainly
caused many persons who may have joined the Klan under a mis-
apprehension as to its goals to withdraw from it and realize their
serious mistake.
Insofar as the effect of these hearings on the great bulk of the
Southern people not connected with this, I think the Southern tem-
perament against violence has been heightened, and it has become quite
evident that the days of Klan influence in political and social decisions
of the South are over. That is as it should be.
I think these hearings have accomplished that and have been of vast
assistance along those lines.
Now the question, Mr. Chairman, is : What now ?
I would say that it is my hope that we will move as quickly as the
chairman of the full committee desires into open public legislative
hearings.
I have proposed legislation which I think will be valuable. It can
be vastly improved by the thoughts and expressions of my colleagues
on this committee. There are other members of this committee who
have good suggestions, and we need now to proceed to legislative
hearings.
Secondly, I think it would be a mistake for this committee to close
today and give the impression to any interested observer that we are
closing, once and for all, the books on the Ku Klux Klan. I think
that book has to stay open. Just as this committee has a duty of con-
tinuing a constant surveillance, a sustained surveillance, in what has
traditionally been its area, I think that we must now undertake an
additional responsibility of further concern with all groups, South-
ern or otherwise, which through the use of force and violence seek
to deprive the citizens of this country of the free exercise of rights
guaranteed them by the Constitution and laws of the United States.
I think that is the second thing that must be a part of the future
responsibility of this committee.
But, Mr. Chairman, I feel that, in spite of the valuable legislative
contribution we can make and in spite of the continuing responsibility
of this committee in this field, the real question is not up to this com-
mittee or to the House of Representatives or to the United States Con-
gress. The real question is up to the people of the South.
All of us here today are Southern men. We have given the people
of our section the facts about the Klan, and it is now time for the
people of that section to look at those facts, to weigh them to deter-
mine whether or not the Klan is going to govern community affairs
in the South, or whether it will be the people of the South.
So, the challenge now passes from Congress and it is placed directly
into the hands of the people of the South. I for one am confident
that Southern people are anxious to make their own decisions; that
they desire the democratic processes to be operative ; and they desire
that the problems of the South, however pressing and compelling
they may be, be determined within the framework of the Consti-
tution of the United States, in accordance with the laws of the United
States and in accordance with the free expression of public opinion.
3826 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
I do not believe that Southerners really want to turn those decisions
over to any group of hooded, hidden, terroristic, anonymous men.
Mr. Chairman, I thank you for the opportunity of expressing these
remarks. In closing these hearings, I think we have accomplished
what we have set out to do and I think the future will support that
observation.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Buchanan.
Mr. Buchanan. Mr. Chairman, let me begjin by associating myself
with the remarks of my colleague from Georgia, Mr. Weltner, concern-
ing the way in which our chairman, Mr. Willis, has conducted these
proceedings.
It would seem that any fairminded person would recognize the
restraint, the good judgment he has demonstrated in the way he
has led us.
I should also like to compliment the outstanding work of our staff
and, finally, to second his words concerning the fine people of the
South.
The gentleman from Georgia and I may disagree widely in our
politics, yet we in the South stand together in overwhelming majority
against violence and terrorism and racial bigotry.
Mr. Chairman, the purpose of this investigation has been to obtain
facts and develop information concerning the various Klan organiza-
tions for legislative purposes. If, as various Klan leaders claimed
at the outset, the Ku Klux Klan did not fit the ugly image it has
had in the minds of many Americans throughout the long years, such
investigation would reveal this injustice and clear its name.
He who had nothing to hide had nothing to fear from this
investigation.
It was my hope that leaders of the various Klan organizations
would freely testify, as some of them had boasted they would do.
We have been determined here to ascertain the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth about the Ku Klux Klan.
In spite of the persistent noncooperation and opposition of the Klan
leaders, accompanied by vitriolic attacks upon the personalities and
purposes of this committee, we have accumulated a mountain of evi-
dence and testimony concerning the several Klan organizations. We
have done so through the outstanding investigative work of our dedi-
cated and highly competent staff.
Out of this has come a sordid picture of bigotry and hate, of terror-
ism and violence. We have had testimony of beatings and bombings
and burnings and worse.
From our own investigators' sworn testimony, from other reliable
witnesses, and from other documentary evidence we have developed
a great deal of damaging information about the Ku Klux Klan.
In vivid contrast, the favorable testimony concerning the "Invisible
Empire" has been minute, and the charges answered few. Those high
officers who should have been its most ardent and eloquent apologists
have sat before us mute and silent, unable or unwilling to speak in
defense of the Ku Klux Klan.
We are, therefore, forced to the conclusion that the traditional ugly
image of the Ku Klux Klan is essentially valid — preaching love and
peace, yet practicing hatred and violence; claiming fidelity to the
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3827
Constitution, yet systematically abrogating the constitutional rights
of other citizens — indeed, the very constitutional rights and privileges
they themselves cling to and have hidden behind in the course of these
hearings; and taking the law into their own hands to pass judgment
and administer penalties. Their record seems clearly one of moral
bankruptcy and of staggering hypocrisy. Claiming to be champions
of the South, they have brought down upon the fine people of the
South, who, in overwhelming majority, are not racial bigots and who
deplore terrorism and violence, the scorn of the world and the wrath
of the Nation.
The Klan itself has thus proved the wellspring of unjust and puni-
tive legislation against the South.
Claiming to be anti- Communist, the Klan has played into the hands
of atheistic communism, fulfilling Communist goals for racial strife
and turmoil in our Nation, punctuated by acts of violence, and provid-
ing grist for the Communist propaganda mills all over the world.
Mr. Chairman, this is not a court of law, and our purpose here is to
develop information rather than to convict anyone of anything. Yet,
if the Ku Klux Klan were a defendant in a trial and the Nation should
be its jury, in light of the mountain of condemnatory evidence devel-
oped in these proceedings, that jury would have no choice but to
declare the defendant guilty as charged.
Mr. Pool, Thank you, Mr. Buchanan.
At the close of today's session, the committee will recess the public-
hearing phase of the Klan investigation, subject to the call of the
Chair. In all probability, a further call will be dependent upon a
Supreme Court ruling, expected almost any day now, which will deter-
mine the advisability of the committee's hearing certain subpenaed
witnesses from the State of Georgia. The court ruling may be such
that this session will be the last public hearing on Klan organizations.
The committee has held 36 days of public hearings on the Klans,
during which 187 witnesses have testified. The 4300-page hearing
record, unfortunately, indicates that, with few exceptions, top-ranking
Klan leadere have refused to divulge information about the Klans or
their aims and objectives.
Mr. Willis, the chairman of this subcommittee and the full com-
mittee, in his opening statement of last October 19, pointed out that
certain Klan leaders had publicly stated that they welcomed the inves-
tigation. Their conduct ever since then, however, has belied their
statements. While in the witness chair, they consistently invoked the
fifth amendment in response to all questions asked them. Outside
the hearing room, they conducted a vicious smear campaign against
the committee, particularly against the chairman, and, in addition,
have done everything possible to frustrate the committee's investiga-
tion by intimidating potential witnesses, urging them not to talk, and
similar activities.
In his opening statement, the chairman also pointed out that the
Klans claimed to be patriotic, 100 percent American, Christian, moral,
and law-abiding and that, for this reason, the committee hoped it
would not experience what it had while investigating other matters
within its jurisdiction — witness after witness invoking the fifth amend-
ment when asked, not about their beliefs, but their actions.
3828 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
As far as I am concerned, and all members of the subcommittee
share my view, the conduct of Klansmen and Klan leaders both on
the witness stand and outside the hearing room — and the facts placed
in this hearing record — have completely exploded the Klan's phony
claims about 100 percent Americanism, patriotism, their being law-
abiding, and so forth.
The Klans have had their chance to state their case under oath.
They refused to take advantage of their opportunity, and the reasons
they refused are spread all through the record. They have nothing to
tell that would do them, or the Klans, a bit of good in the eyes of the
American people. They remained silent, I am convinced, because
they dared not speak the truth. Like most other un- Americans the
committee has dealt with, they are loud-mouthed when in a mob, but
silent when in a witness chair and, therefore, under compulsion to
speak the truth or hold their tongues.
These hearings have been held, as the chairman pointed out last
October, to assist the Congress in drafting such remedial legislation
as it deemed appropriate and necessary to deal with the problems
created by Klan activities. In his opening statement, the chairman
asked this question :
What must Congress know to determine whether legislation is called for in
this area and, if so, what type legislation will be effective?
He answered the question in the following words :
It must know the objectives and purposes of the Ku Klux Klans, their struc-
ture and organizations, their affiliated organizations, and groups created or con-
trolled by them or organized to support, defend, and assist them. The Congress
must know their constitutions and bylaws, the type of activities in which
they engage, how they are controlled, who their key officers are, how Klan
groups are financed, and what their funds are used for. It must know whether
the Klans subscribe to — and use — illegal means to achieve either declared or
concealed objectives. The Congress must know whether the operations and
actions directed and carried out by Klan leaders and certain members are in
accord with the wishes of the membership as a whole, or whether certain ac-
tivities are engaged in without the knowledge and approval of the membership.
It must know whether Klan recruits are informed of the true nature and
purposes of the Klans — or whether they are hoodwinked into joining them. It
must also know, of course, something of the size, strength, and scope of the
Klan movement. These are the matters which are the subject of this inquiry.
We believe these hearings have produced this information, that
all the facts which the Congress will need to legislate on this matter
have been placed in the record.
The record is not a pretty one. It is a record of floggings, beatings,
killings, of talk of and plans to assassinate public figures and others
for no other reason than the color of their skin or the fact that
they disapprove of the ideas, policies, and activities of the Klans. It
is a record of the activities of sneaky, cowardly men, taking advantage
of the cover of night and superiority in numbers to intimidate and do
physical violence to young and old, male and female. It is a record
of hatred, a record of double-dealing, of quarreling and fighting over
spoils, of leaders deceiving followers, a record that no real American
could be proud of.
Facts presented in the hearings have cause defections from the
Klans. Our overall record, I believe, will cause more and more
Klansmen to leave the ranks of these organizations and will reveal to
all others the true and repulsive nature of the Klans.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3829
I very much regret that the chairman of the committee cannot be
here today for what may be the last public hearing in this investiga-
tion. In his absence, speaking for myself and, I am sure, for all other
members of the subcommittee, I want to pay tribute to his most effec-
tive leadership in conducting this investigation and in his overall work
as chairman of the committee. To me, it is a shameful thing that,
because of what he has done, certain persons and groups have ganged
up on him as they have and, by using every despicable trick and device,
have tried to destroy his good name and reputation and end his career
in Congress. The record being as I have described it, however, I can
only say that you could never expect anything else from the Klans.
There is no doubt in my mind but that the chairman is too big to be
hurt by these dirty tactics and that the Klans will not succeed in their
efforts to destroy his career.
Let me say in conclusion that, while the investigative and hearing
phase of the committee's activities in regard to the Klans has about
ended, there is still work to be done in other areas. I have in mind,
of course, the basic purpose for which these hearings were held — the
drafting of legislation which will be effective in dealing with Klan-
type activities. We will pursue this actively, and it is expected that,
with the return of the chairman in the near future, hearings will be
held on this subject.
Various organizations and individuals have requested that they be
granted an opportunity to testify in the legislative hearings. The
committee would very much appreciate it if all such interested indi-
viduals and organizations would communicate with it as soon as possi-
ble to facilitate the scheduling of witnesses for the legislative hear-
ings.
Mr. Appell, would you care to say anything?
Mr. Appell. No, Mr. Chairman. I would just request that we ad-
journ subject to the call of the Chair.
Mr. Pool. Before I do that, I also want to join my colleagues in
praising the work of the investigative staff, the legal staff, and others
on the Un-American Activities Committee staff. They have done a
tremendous job, and we want to thank the press for the full coverage
it has given these hearings. I think it is a great service to the Ameri-
can people.
The subcommittee will stand in adjournment subject to the call of
the Chair.
(Whereupon, at 12 :30 p.m., Thursday, February 24, 1966, the sub-
committee adjourned, subject to the call of the Chair.)
59-222 O— 67-nPt. 5 23
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN ORGANIZATIONS IN
THE UNITED STATES
Part 5
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 1965
United States House of Representattves,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ B.C.
executive session ^
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities ^
met, pursuant to resolution dated March 30, 1965, at 10:30 a.m., in
Room 313-A, Cannon House Office Building, Washington, D.C., Hon.
Edwin E. Willis (chairman) presiding.
( Subconmiittee members : Representatives Edwin E. Willis, of Lou-
isiana, chairman; Joe R. Pool, of Texas; Charles L. Weltner, of
Georgia; John M. Ashbrook, of Ohio; and John H. Buchanan, Jr., of
Alabama.)
Subcommittee members present: Representatives Willis, Pool, and
Ashbrook.
Staff members present: Francis J. McNamara, director; William
Hitz, general counsel; Donald T. Appell, chief investigator; and
Philip R. Manuel and B. Ray McConnon, Jr., investigators.
The Chairman. The subcommittee will please come to order.
This hearing is being held pursuant to a resolution adopted by the
committee on March 30 of this year,^ authorizing a formal investiga-
tion of the Ku Klux Klan, an organization withm the United States.
Let the record show that a quorum of the subcommittee is present.
Please raise your right hand, sir.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Gentry. I do, sir.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT PITTMAN GENTRY
Mr. Hitz. Mr. Gentry, ^ive your full name, please.
Mr. Gentry. Robert Pittman Gentry.
Mr. Hrrz. Where do you live now, Mr. Gentry ?
Mr. Gentry. Route 4, Murf reesboro, Tennessee.
1 Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.
2 For appointment of subcommittee, see p. 1527.
3 For resolution, see pp. 1523, 1524.
3831
3832 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLIJX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Gentry, I first want to advise you tliat this is an
executive session. You have been told before you came here on nu-
merous occasions while in Washington over the last 2 days, this is the
third day, that this is an executive session that you would attend, and
it is here now executive.
In the room there are only the three members whom you see, Mr.
Willis, our chairman ; Mr. Pool, a member ; and Mr. Ashbrook, a mem-
ber, all of a subcommittee of the full Committee on Un-American
Activities.
In addition, there are the staff director, Mr. McNamara; next to
him is Mr. Manuel, an investigator; and you know Mr. Appell, the
chief investigator ; and Mr. McConnon you know to be a member of
the staff as an investigator; you know me to be the chief counsel; and
that gentleman, of course, is the reporter. So I want you to observe
that this is an executive session, as I tell you it is, and that there is no
one other than members of the committee or the staff membership and
the reporter present.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Chairman, I think you ought to advise him that there
might be two other members of the subcommittee who might come in.
Mr. HiTz. There may be other members of the subcommittee come
in later on.
If you care to at any point, you may ask me who it is who is coming
into the room, and I will likely tell you.
I want to advise you that, inasmuch as you obviously do not have
an attorney here today, under the rules of the committee you may have
an attorney here today. Being as you are from out of town and you
don't have one, you will be given a reasonable and adequate, but short,
opportmiity to get an attorney.
We will assist you in that in the sense that we will put you in the
way of fuiding an attorney, possibly by contacting the bar association
and its facilities. We camiot appoint an attorney because we don't
have the appointing power to do it.
With that in mind, I will ask you in addition this question : Have
you consulted an attorney or more than one after you had been
subpenaed to appear here for this occasion ?
Mr. Gentry, I have, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. And just tell us in what city or where that was.
Mr. Gentry. That was in Murfreesboro, Tennessee; Washington,
D.C. ; Augusta, Georgia.
(At this point Representative Buchanan entered the hearing room.)
The Chairivian, This is Mr, Buchanan, a member of the subcom-
mittee.
Mr. HiTz, Do you understand what I told you about representation
by counsel and all that I have said on that subject?
Mr, Gentry. I do, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. You are aware of it and understand what I have said ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you desire now to have counsel ?
Mr. Gentry. No ; I do not,
Mr, HiTz, Another subject : You have the right, as do all witnesses
here and in other proceedings, to take advantage of your rights against
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3833
self-incrimination under the fifth amendment of the Federal Constitu-
tion, wliich means that you do not have to answer questions which you
think might divulge information from you that might tend to incrimi-
nate you for any State or Federal prosecution, ill or well brought.
Do you midei-stand what I have said in that regard ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir,
Mr, HiTz. Have you discussed this matter at some length with your
attorneys prior to coming here ?
Mr, Gentry, Yes, sir ; I have,
Mr. HiTz. And you have received advice from them as to what you
should do in that regard, have you ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir ; I have.
Mr. HiTz. So that, as we go along, you are in a position to make
your own judgments and your choices in respect to the fifth amend-
ment?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir,
Mr, HiTz. Without any further ado, and without counsel ?
Mr, Gentry. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Gentry, have you ever been a member of a Ku Klux
Klan organization ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me and I assert
my right not to answer as guaranteed by the fifth amendment of
the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. HiTz. I would like to ask you a question or two about that. I
also want you to realize, as I feel that you probably do from your talks
with your counsel, that certain questions that go deeply or even fringe-
wise around your claim of self-incrimination themselves may be re-
fused of answer. Nevertheless, I am going to ask you whether you
have, when you assert that privilege, a good-faith fear that the answer
to that question might tend to incriminate you in a State or Federal
charge.
Do you have a fear of prosecution ?
Mr. Gentry. I do, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. In addition to that, do you also have a fear of retaliation
by anyone if you should answer that and related questions that we
may put to you?
Mr. Gentry, I do, sir,
Mr, HiTZ. Would you care to tell us from what source you fear that
retaliation if you should answer that and related questions?
Mr. Gentry. From the Ku Klux Klan, sir.
Sir, at this time, I would like to speak before we go any farther with
the proceedings.
The Chairman, Would you speak a little louder, please?
Mr, Gentry. I am sorry.
I explained to counsel at this time, with the permission of the com-
mittee and permission of the staff, I would like to speak and go a little
bit more into detail and explain myself on this stand that I am taking.
I have agreed, before coming into this closed session of the commit-
tee, that if certain guarantees were made to me that I would be more
than glad to give cooperation to this committee. But without these
grants that I have referred to, I am afraid I won't be able to be of
3834 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
very much help to the committee. Don't misunderstand. I am not
trying to set the rules for this committee or intimidate any member of
this committee or anything of that nature. I am merely trying to
protect myself in this matter, sir.
The Chairman. Well, your protection comes under the provisions
of the Constitution. You have the right to invoke the fifth amend-
ment at any point that your conscience causes you to believe you would
be testifying against yourself or giving incriminating evidence against
yourself.
I don't know exactly what more you mean or what more you assert.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr, Gentry, do you care to spell that out a litte more,
to tell us under what conditions you feel that you will be protected
and, therefore, satisfied in respect to your fear of prosecution and
also in respect to your fear of retaliation if you give certain informa-
tion to us today ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir ; I will.
Mr. HiTz. Spell that out for the chairman and the committee.
The Chaiirman. I want the record to show that the young man who
just came in is a member of the staff.
(At this point Mr. Butler entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
These requests I can put under three separate headings. I will be
glad to elaborate on these headings if necessary, although I feel them
to be self-explanatory. Number one is that any testimony that I
give before this committee be kept in strict secrecy, and that even ap-
plies to inferrals or suggestions to the press or anything of this nature
or anyone outside of this committee.
The Chairman. In answer to that, I will say that this is an execu-
tive session, and executive sessions are respected. Under the rules of
the committee, for example, this subcommittee, even if it wished to,
could not release testimony. It takes approval of a majority of the
full committee. There is now no intention of asking the full committee
to release that testimony.
In other words, the intent is to take what }^ou say here today under
oath, and the only condition is that everything you say must be the
truth, whatever you do say, and which will be transcribed.
It is not intended to be released.
Mr. Gentry. Sir, the reason I ask this particular stipulation is
that this rule that you speak of, of secrecy in this committee, has not
been observed, in my opinion^ to the utmost in past hearings or in this
hearing, this particular hearing in other investigations before today.
I have knowledge at this time that because of statements that have
been made and released to the press and to the general public by mem-
bers of this committee, that in all possibility innocent men's lives are
in danger today. I don't want to find myself in that position, sir.
The Chairman. That, I assure you, was not a committee action, and
I assure you, speaking for myself, it did not come from me.
I will ask the other members to speak for themselves.
Mr. Pool. At any meetings I have been to, I have never revealed
anything that has come out of an executive session and I do not
intend to.
Mr. Ashbrook. Nor I.
Mr. Buchanan. Nor I.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3835
The Chairman. The other three members indicate the same thing.
Mr. Pool. The only way that would be released would be by action
of the full committee to authorize its publication, which could happen
if the full conmiittee so desired. But that is a matter that the chairman
explained to you.
Is that right, Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. That is correct. No request will be made of the
full committee to release this testimony. There is no intention that
that be done.
Do you mean you have an incident involving the hearings on the
Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir. Sir, I have in my possession a photostat
of a portion of the Nashville Banner, printed on last Thursday after-
noon^ that I was referring to in particular.
With your permission, I would like to read this.
The Chairman. Let me take a look at it.
(Document handed to chairman.)
The Chairman. This is a news release which is along the lines that
you indicated, except it speaks in terms not of a committee action but
of a newspaper reporter, without quoting any member who said that
a member had said the committee "has located a key witness in its
investigation of the Ku Klux Klan, a former Klansman who 'told all,'
a member of the committee said today."
How those things get out, with what accuracy a newspaperman
puts them out, I don't know. But I assure you it is not an action of
the committee.
Mr. AsHBRooK. It does not mention any name specifically.
The Chairman. Anyway, you know what I have said, and I am
speaking for the committee.
Proceed with your next question.
If you have any other statement to make, you may.
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir ; I do.
I mentioned when I started into this that I did have three requests
to make. That was one.
The Chairman. Well, all right. Are you satisfied with my answer
to number one ? If you are not, it is useless to go into others.
Mr. Gentry. I understood you to say, sir, that I did have your
assurance that this would be all confidential and in secrecy; is that
correct ?
The Chairman. Yes, sir; and I explained to you why and the
circumstances that I was speaking under.
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir ; I am satisfied with that.
The Chairman. All right, go ahead.
Mr. Gentry. The next request that I would like to make
The Chairman. Along that line, let me ask you just one question.
Did you say a moment ago that as a result of this news article you
felt like you do today, or that you had heard others say that they
felt like you do ?
Mr. Gentry. I am afraid I don't understand you, sir.
The Chairman. You referred to this article and you said — I don't
remember if you said that you had heard that other witnesses were
nervous because of this news article appearing.
3836 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Gentry. Sir, in relation to this particular article, it is my
understanding that probably an innocent man has been accused by
the Klan and that
The Chairman. I don't know what you mean by that. In other
words, you are speaking for yourself. You are not speaking for other
witnesses?
Mr. Gentry. No, sir.
The Chairman. Nobody was accused of anything. I do not ap-
plaud the article. Nobody was really accused of anything except the
article says that a witness "told all," and I am not commenting
on that.
So far as I am concerned, so far as the committee is officially con-
cerned, there were no details of what that witness said, if he said it,
it is not going to be revealed.
Do you want to raise another point?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir; I do.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Gentry. My second request would be that any information
I gave before this committee, that a stipulation be made that this
information could never be used against me in court proceedings.
The Chairman. I have to be very frank about this. The testimony,
I have just said, will not be released by the committee. You can
hardly expect me or this committee to tell you that officials of the
State, officials of the Federal Government, are going to play dead
and not involve you in anything that might come to their attention.
You are asking me to say that what you say here will not be used
against you. I have already indicated that the testimony won't be
released. But I can't tell you that you may never be involved in court
proceedings or certainly are not going to be involved in court proceed-
ings on the basis of a release of that testimony.
In other words, I think you are asking almost the same thing, if I
understand you. If I don't, make it plain.
Mr. Gentry. I will try to clarify that.
Wliat I am referring to particularly is criminal proceedings that
would be brought against me as a result of testimony that I Avould
give before this committee.
Mr. HiTZ. You are only asking in that regard about criminal pro-
ceedings that might be brought against you involving the matters that
you might testify a^bout?
Mr. Gentry. Criminal or civil; yes.
Mr. HiTZ. What we had in mind, among other things, was that the
committee, I am convinced, would not care to give you any agreement
that if you should be charged with perjury, for example, for what
you might say today, that this won't be released in the interest of
justice. But you don't make that asking?
Mr. Gentry. No, sir.
Mr, HiTz. Perjury excepted?
Mr. Gentry. Perjury excepted.
Mr. HiTz. By you today or at any appearance that you make on this
trip to Washington under this subpena ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. It is my understanding he has stated his second proposi-
tion.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3837
Have you stated it fully ?
Mr. Gentry. I have, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Has the chairman responded fully on that?
The Chairman. I still feel that the second point in many ways is
the same, or certainly involves the first. And I said in connection
with the second point that I or this committee can't bind the actions of
State or Federal officials. It would not be honest for me to assure you
nothing can come about where you might be involved in a prosecution.
In addition to that, I will say this, that if, for instance, not through
action of the release of testimony — I have already told you we don't
intend to release it — if, somehow, a criminal prosecution comes about
and if a United States attorney, a local prosecuting attorney, a grand
jury, or a court feels, whether involving you or anybody else, what you
said here today would be important to be revealed and if I, for exam-
ple, as chairman, should get a court order for me to go testify, I cer-
tainly, if called and if the House grants permission to my being called
and the revelation of the record, I would have to tell the truth.
You see, you are asking me something over which I can't ultimately
control outside parties. I am not implying, I am not saying, anything
like that would ever happen. But you see my position. I want to be
fair with you, but I have to be fair with myself.
It involves more people than Ed Willis, and even you and maybe
others may be involved. So, as I say, the point we are now talking
about is so closely related to the first that if you are relying on the first
point that is probably an answer to your second worry.
But I want you to put yourself in my position and understand that
I can't bind everyone. There are a lot of people in these United States,
and a lot of things can happen. You are talking about a possibility.
Anything is possible, and he is a fool who does not realize that.
I understand your position. I understand your disposition and
attitude. But I can only go as far as I have gone.
Is there anything else ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes; there was one other request that I had to make
before this committee before these proceedings get mider way.
The Chairman. Let me tell you this further : We are after the facts.
The facts are important. Somebody must assemble them. This sub-
committee has been ordered by the full committee to conduct this
investigation. The House of Representatives has supplied funds to
conduct it. We are duty-bound to get the facts. In getting the facts,
we don't intend to use tricks against anybody or to trick you into any
situation that you feel might possibly involve you. We don't intend
any such thing, if that affords you any consolation or relief. We don't
intend to trick you. But on the other hand, people in America, gener-
ally speaking, are imder a certain obligation to cooperate with their
Government and the committees of Congress.
I understand the way you feel, but ultimately you will find that
the one thing that you can rely on is your ^arantees under the Federal
Constitution. Those are not to be bargained away. I could not bar-
gain it away or do anything to deprive you of that right. That is
your ultimate protection, and you have that right at all times, you
and any and all people who appear before this committee or any other
committee of the Congress or any court or grand jury or petit jury,
judge, or anything else.
3838 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Thatprotection is yours at all tinies.
Mr. GrENTRY. Sir, m view of your commitment on this second request,
this third request that I had to make at this time I am sure is going
to have quite a ring of humor to it. But, on the other hand, in view
of what you have told me in regard to this second request, now even
more so I am going to have to rely on this third request.
I want it to be known and understood before this committee that I
don't have any legal background personally. I have no law degree
or anything of that nature. But I do know enough about procedure
to know that if I invoke the fifth, it is my understanding that it be
required that I carry the fifth amendment on through the particular
field in which I invoke it and must refuse to elaborate in any way
whatsoever.
The third request, sir, is that I be allowed to discriminately invoke
the fifth amendment through the course of this testimony for my
protection.
Mr. HiTz. Will you spell out your use of the word "discriminately"
a little bit there?
Mr. Gentry. At random, so to speak, whenever I feel like it is neces-
sary to protect myself.
I realize, sir, that this is very unusual.
The Chairman. It is unusual. It is so unusual that it is hard to
make a ruling in advance of the points where you would invoke it.
The fifth amendment is something that cannot be bargained away or
bargained about. You have protections under the fifth amendment.
That does not come from me ; it comes from the Constitution.
I do not know exactly what you feel and at what point you would
say you would at random invoke the fifth amendment. I will say this,
that the idea of these hearings is to get the facts and not to trick a
witness. We do not intend to take advantage of you in any way.
Some witnesses sometimes in the past have taken the position
that they have a right to say everything that is good and harmless and
fine about themselves and brag what great people they are and, having
painted a beautiful picture about themselves, then just clam up and
do not respond to cross-examination, you see. That is the area of black,
white, and gray that I can't rule on in advance.
I will say this, that we do not intend to lay a situation in an exami-
nation to trick you in any way. We would not do it to anybody, so
why should we do it to you. ?
Mr. Gentry. Let me explain, sir, my position a little more clearly,
and maybe by this you can understand a little bit more what I am
trying to accomplish. I have come before this committee today with
the intention of trying to be helpful and to be of benefit to this
committee.
The Chairman. We appreciate that.
Mr. Gentry. But, on the other hand, I didn't come before this com-
mittee today to become involved in any type of action that may result
from it, whether it be in the nature of contempt proceedings or any-
'thing of this nature.
This is the reason, sir, that I did make that last request.
The Chairman. There, again, you are getting close to the second
point, involvements over which I have no control.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3839
Proceed with your questions, Counsel, and we will face each situa-
tion as we come to it. If what I have said leads the witness to the
conclusion that he n\\ist invoke the fifth amendment at every point,
that is up to him.
On the other hand, I can only say that we do not intend to trick
the witness and we do not intend to lay a situation, to deliberately
create a situation, to make him guilty of contempt or criminal
prosecution.
iWe do not intend that. But I can't make a ruling in the blind before
the situation develops. I understand your position, but that is the
best the committee can do in all fairness to committee proceedings and
to the Constitution itself.
If you prefer, under these circumstances, to have a lawyer seated
by you, we will adjourn the committee right now and give you an
opportunity, a short, reasonable time, to get one.
Mr. Gentry. That wouldn't be necessary, sir.
The Chairman. It would not be necessary ?
Mr. Gentry. No, sir.
The Chairman. We have to proceed.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, I have one question that I think might
elicit an answer that would be helpful on this last, the third, matter.
The Chairman. I do not see how we can go any further, the com-
mittee, than I have said, on the occasion of trying to be fair, on the
occasion of certainly not having any intent or creating any situation
that might result in contempt or criminal prosecution or anything of
the sort, but I cannot make a broad commitment on questions to come
and positions to come until we really have faced them.
Proceed with your questions.
Mr. HiTZ. With that question or my general questioning? Shall
I forego that question that might illuminate his point number three ?
The Chairman. No ; let's proceed with the questions.
Mr. HiTz. How old are you, sir ?
Mr. Gentry. Twenty-seven years old, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Where were you born ?
Mr. Gentry. Nashville, Tennessee, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Are you now married and have children ?
Mr. Gentry. I am, sir. I do.
Mr. HiTz. How man^ children ?
Mr. Gentry. Two, sir.
Mr. HiTz. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Gentry. I am employed by Greer Stopnut Company, a division
of K&K Manufacturing Company
Mr. HiTz. Greer Stopnut Company ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Go ahead.
Mr. Gentry. — as a machinist, sir.
Mr. HiTz. How much schooling have you had ?
Mr. Gentry. Thirteen years, sir, not counting service school.
Mr. HiTZ. How far did you go in your schooling ?
Mr. Gentry. Thirteen years, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Where did you end up in the type of schooling that
you had ?
3840 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Gentry. Freshman in college, sir.
Mr. HiTz. And your service schooling was of what sort ?
Mr. Gentry. The communications field, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. In what service were you ?
Mr. Gentry. The National Guard, but at the time of these service
schools I was on active duty with the U.S. Army.
Mr. HiTZ. For what length of time ?
Mr. Gentry. All together, sir ?
Mr. HiTZ. Yes. Your service.
Mr. Gentry. Approximately a year and a half to two years.
Mr. HiTZ. When did you come out of the service ?
Mr. Gentry. I am not sure on the discharge date, sir; possibly in
1961.
Mr. HiTZ. And when you did, how old were you ? That would be
4 years back from now and you would have been 23 ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Where did you go to live at that time ?
Mr. Gentry. Murf reesboro, Tennessee, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Did a time come when you went to live in Florida?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. When was that ?
Mr. Gentry. 1961, 1 believe, sir.
Mr. Hitz. What part of the year of 1961 ?
Mr. Gentry. I am sorry, sir, I am not sure on that.
Mr. Hitz. Did you have employment when you went to Florida?
Mr. Gentry. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. Hitz. Where did you go ?
Mr. Gentry. Jacksonville, Florida.
Mr. Hitz. Did you obtain employment at Jacksonville ?
Mr. Gentry. I did, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Wliat sort of employment?
Mr. Gentry. First ?
Mr. Hitz. Yes.
Mr. Gentry. I took a part-time job until I could find regular em-
ployment with a painter as an apprentice or helper.
Mr. Hitz. Was that your part-time employment or was that the
employment
Mr. Gentry. That was part-time employment, sir.
Mr. Hitz. How long did you have that?
Mr. Gentry. Roughly 3 weeks or a month.
Mr. Hitz. Then what did you do?
Mr. Gentry. I went to work for the Pepsi-Cola Bottling Company,
the Jacksonville division.
Mr. Hitz. How long did you work for them ?
Mr. Gentry. Approximately 2 years, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Until when?
Mr. Gentry. March of 1964, 1 believe that would be, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Prior to your coming to Jacksonville, had you been a mem-
ber of any Klan organization ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me and I assert
my rights not to answer as guaranteed by the fifth amendment of
the Constitution of the United States.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3841
The Chairman. If you want, as questions go on, to invoke the
fifth amendment, it will be sufficient, if the procedure is acceptable to
you, it affords you the same protection, to simply say that you refuse
to answer on the grounds previously stated.
It will save time then for you not to go through the technical state-
ment. We have this situation and that is the general way of invoking
the fifth amendment. We are not insisting that you detail your rights
in the fifth amendment. We understand what you mean. Understand,
however, that in every case, in order to have the right to invoke the
fifth amendment, you have to have an honest conviction that you are
invoking it because you fear criminal prosecution.
Do you understand what I am trying to tell you ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. HiTz. After you got to Jacksonville, did you join a Klan
organization ?
Mr. Gentry. Again, sir, I respectfully decline to answer that ques-
tion on the grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Pool. On the grounds previously stated ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Let me ask you a question concerning this claim of
privilege. Would you be willing to answer that question and a num-
ber of others relating to possible Klan membership, if it existed, if
you were not at some subsequent time in this hearing confronted with
the proposition, the legal proposition, that at that later time you can-
not claim the self-incnmination protection because you had answered
these earlier questions concerning Klan activity ?
Mr. Gentry. That is correct, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Obviously, you understand my question because you have
answered it. Are you sure you understand what I have said ?
In other words, if you would answer this question and certain other
questions concerning Klan activity, just so long as they weren't later
held up to you at a time when you feel perhaps more danger to your-
self in the field of incrimination ?
Mr. Gentry. That is correct, sir.
Mr. HiTz. And that these answers will not be held up to you as a
waiver of a later claim of incrimination on more serious, perhaps,
matters ?
Mr. Gentry. Let me see if I understand you, sir. What you are
saying, in effect, is would I be willing to answer these questions if
later on in these proceedings they were not held up to me in the form
of a waiver ; is that what you are saying ?
The Chairman. We have covered that ground, and I can't be more
specific than I was.
Just ask questions.
Mr. HiTz. Please tell us in what fashion you became a member of
a Klan organization in Jacksonville, if you did ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. HiTz. Did you attend any Klan rallies in the Jacksonville
neighborhood before you joined the Klan ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
3842 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. You are not asking if he was a member of the Ku Klux
Klan. You are asking if he attended any Klan rallies before he be-
came a member.
Can you answer that question ?
Mr. Gentry. No, sir ; I can't.
Mr. Pool. On the same grounds previously stated ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Did you ever hold any Klavern office in a Ku Klux Klan
organization in the Jacksonville area ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. HiTZ. Did ^ou join the United Florida Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the ground previously stated.
Mr. HiTZ. Where you assigned to a Klavern No. 508 of the Robert
E. Lee series of Kiavems ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. HiTz. Let's remember what the chairman said, if it is agreeable
to you, that if you just say, "I claim my fifth amendment rights" or
words to that effect, it will do, and we will recognize it.
If you are satisfied with that, we can shorten that up.
Did you ever hold a State office in the United Florida Klans ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I claim my fifth amendment rights.
The Chairman. Were you aware of the existence of the Klan or-
ganization in or around Jacksonville ?
Mr. Gentry. Aware, sir ?
The Chairman. Yes. Did you know that one existed ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes ; I was aware, sir.
Mr. Pool. Were you acquainted with any of the members of the
Klan ? Did you know them personally or know any members of the
Klan in that vicinity ?
Mr. Gentry. I plead -my fifth amendment rights in reply to that
question, sir.
Mr. Pool. Then how did you know^ that there was one that existed ?
Mr. Gentry. At that particular time, sir, there was quite an ex-
tensive advertising campaign, we shall say, being carried on by the
Klan. I don't think even a casual traveler to that city at that particular
time could have helped but be aw^are that there was Klan activities
in the area.
Mr. Pool. Do you want to tell this committee anything else about
what you knew oi the Klan there or your awareness of it ? Maybe we
can't think of the right questions, but maybe you can cooperate by
telling us things that wouldn't incriminate you or tend to incriminate
you.
Mr. Gentry. As I stated previously, sir, I don't have a background
in law and I would be afraid of putting my foot in a bear trap.
The Chairman. Proceed with the questions.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Gentry, are you informed on the means by which
the Robert E. Lee Klavern No. 508 in Jacksonville
(At this point Representative Weltner entered the hearing room.)
The Chairman. This is a member of the subcommittee, Mr. Gentry.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3843
Mr. HiTZ. — collected initiation fees, collected dues, provided and
sold robes, handled reports, communicated with the realm officer, the
Grand Dragon, who was also the imperial officer ?
Are you possessed of such information, sir?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I plead my fifth amendment rights in answer to
that question.
Mr. HiTz. Are you possessed of information regarding special con-
tributions made by members at the Klavern level for emergency and
special purposes, having to do with providing bail and other similar
functions ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I plead my fifth amendment rights in answer to
that question.
Mr. HiTZ. Are you aware of the security precautions that were prev-
alent at the Klavern level with respect to safeguarding the existence
and the use of these special funds ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I plead my fifth amendment rights in answer to
that question.
Mr. HiTz. Are you possessed of information concerning the means
by which members of Klaverns in the United Florida Klans were car-
ried and remembered?
Mr. Gentry. Sir^ I plead my fifth amendment rights in answer to
that question.
Mr. HiTz. And security precautions with respect to the safeguard-
ing of the identity of members?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I plead my fifth amendment rights in answer to
that question.
Mr. Hrrz. Are you possessed of information that there were certain
members of the United Florida Klans who were relieved of certain
Klan restrictive responsibilities, such as attendance at meetings, paying
dues, and otherwise associating in routine Klan activities?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I plead my fifth amendment rights in answer to
that question.
Mr. Hrrz. And that those members were, by and large, charged with
certain special responsibilities and performed certain special functions
in the Klan?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I plead my fifth amendment rights in answer to
that question.
Mr. HiTz. Are you possessed of information that there were a cer-
tain limited number of persons who had what may be termed a pass-
port which enabled them, as hidden or otherwise security protected
members of the Klan, to attend practically any Klan function within
the United Florida Klans ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I plead my fifth amendment rights in answer to
that question.
Mr. HiTz. Did you yourself ever possess such a passport within the
Florida Klans, United Florida Klans?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I plead my fifth amendment rights in reply to
'"hat question.
Mr. HiTz. Did you come to know — Mr. Gentry, did you become
acquainted with a man named Rosecrans ? Did you become acquainted
with Rosecrans ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I plead my fifth amendment rights in reply to
this question.
3844 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. HiTZ. Were you ever engaged as a Klansman in any acts of
violence ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I plead my fifth amendment rights in answer to
this question.
Mr. Hrrz. Were you ever accused of having engaged in such acts of
violence ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. HiTz. Were you ever arrested and indicted and tried for the
Federal offenses of violation of civil rights of others and also for viola-
tion of rights protected by a Federal court injunction ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I would like to go on record here as saying that I
don't actually remember the exact wording or anything of that nature
of the indictment, other than I think probably the best way to put this
thing under a broad head or two broad heads is that one indictment
concerned violation of civil rights or a court injunction issued by Judge
Bryan Simpson, the Federal Court in Jacksonville, Florida, and the
other indictment was Federal conspiracy charges.
I was indicted on these charges.
Mr. HiTZ. More specifically, you were charged in count one of that
Jacksonville Federal indictment for violation of section 241. That is
the civil rights charge, the old one. And the other is the injunction
charge and conspiracy under it, section 1509, both of Title 18, right?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Were you tried in Federal Court in Jacksonville for those
two charges ?
Mr. Gentry. I was, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Were you charged twice for those two charges?
Mr. Gentry. I was.
Mr. Hitz. Was a man named Rosecrans a defendant along with you
in the indictment bringing those two charges ?
Mr. Gentry. He was, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Were others charged in that indictment, besides you and
Rosecrans, Barton H. Griffin, Jacky Don Harden, Donald Eugene
Spegal, and Willie Eugene Wilson, a total of six defendants?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Did the first trial of those charges result in a hung jury
and, therefore, a mistrial ?
Mr. Gentry. I did, sir.
Correction on that, sir. It did result in a hung jury. It also resulted
in an acquittal for one man, a total acquittal, and a partial acquittal for
myself.
Mr. Hitz. ^Yho was the one totally acquitted on the first trial?
Mr. Gentry. Jack Harden.
Mr. Hitz. Was that first trial in the Federal Court in Jacksonville
approximately the 6th of August 1964?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Early in August. That might have been the date of
the return of the hung-jury verdict. Do you happen to know, actually,
was it the 6th that the jury was hmig?
Mr. Gentry. I believe that was the date, sir.
Mr. Hitz. And subsequently were you and the other defendants,
except Mr. Harden — and you say he was acquitted on both of his
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3845
counts in the first trial — Avere you and the other defendants, except
Harden, brought to trial a second time in Jacksonville?
Mr. Gentry. We were, sir.
Mr. HiTz. And did that trial in the end of November 1964 result in
an acquittal for all defendants on trial ?
Mr. Gentry. It did, sir.
Mr, HiTz. Did the charges brought in the indictment result from
the alleged participation by the defendants in a bombing of the home
of a young colored boy who had shortly theretofore been permitted
under a Federal court order to go to an otherwise segregated school
in Jacksonville?
Mr. Gentry, Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. His name being Godfrey, his last name?
Mr. Gentry. Donald Godfrey. Also named in that was one Mrs.
lona Godfrey.
Mr. HiTZ. She was the mother of Donald ?
Mr. Gentry. That is correct, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. You, of course, were present, were you not, at the time
that the petit jurors were selected from the jury panel in the Federal
court for the first trial ?
Mr. Gentry. I was, sir.
Mr. HiTz. At that time, were you represented by attorney Matt
Murphy ?
Mr. Gentry. I was, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Andalsoby J. B.Stoner?
Mr. Gentry. That is correct, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. And also by an attorney named Washington ?
Mr. Gentry. Howell Washington.
Mr. HiTZ. Matt Murphy had theretofore, and since then, engaged
in the defense of a number of Klansmen ; had he not ?
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I will have to answer that question on a hearsay
basis. I really don't know due to the fact that I wasn't present. I had
heard reports.
Mr. HiTZ. Answer it on hearsay, that is all right.
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. And J. B. Stoner had also represented Klansmen from
time to time, had he not, so far as you have information ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. And Mr. Washington, your attorney, Howell Washing-
ton, he was a family and personal attorney for you, was he, or at least
one
Mr. Gentry. A personal attorney, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Did all three of those attorneys represent all of the de-
fendants and each of them ?
Mr. Gentry. They did, sir.
Mr. Hrrz. In the first trial, defendant Rosecrans testified against
the other defendants, that is, against his codef endants ; correct?
Mr. Gentry. That is correct.
Mr. HiTz. Was Mr. Rosecrans, as he appeared as a Government
witness — which is the way in which he testified against the defendants,
is it not ?
Mr. Gentry, Yes.
59-222 O— 67— pt. 5 24
3846 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. HiTz. — was he not represented by the same attorneys who were
representing you gentlemen who were on trial ?
Mr. Gentry. No, sir ; he was not.
Mr. HiTz. He was not?
Mr. Gentry. No, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Who represented him as he was a Government witness?
Mr. Gentry, This is at the time of the first trial ?
Mr. Hrrz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Gentry. I may be wrong, but it was my impression at that par-
ticular time that he was represented by Mr. J. B. Stoner.
. Mr. Hrrz. So the picture isn't precisely as my question seemed to
indicate, but he was represented not by the same lawyers who repre-
sented the men on trial who are still defendants, but he was represented
by only one of them ?
Mr. Gentry. That is correct, sir.
Mr. HiTz. So that Mr. Stoner was representing the Government wit-
ness defendant, Rosecrans, as well as you four boys who were on trial
at that time, and against whom Rosecrans was testifying?
Mr, Gentry. That was my understanding.
Mr, Hrrz. Who was the Federal judge who conducted that trial ?
Mr. Gentry. Judge Bryan Simpson.
Mr. HiTZ. And just to digress a moment, he is the Federal judge who
issued the injunction which permitted young Godfrey to attend the
segregated school and required the school officials to accept him as a
pupil; right?
Mr. Gentry. That is correct, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Did Judge Simpson take any precaution with respect
either to Mr. Rosecrans, the Government witness, or as to any or all of
you tried defendants to protect them or him against conflict of interest
in respect to the fact that Mr. Stoner was on both sides of that trial?
Mr. Gentry, I am not qualified to answer that question.
Mr. HiTz. Did you observe any precautions taken by the judge to
see that there was not a common representation so far as Mr. Stoner
was concerned, of a Government witness and men on trial ?
Mr, Gentry. To the best of my knowledge, there was not, sir. I
remember there being some controversy about this, but I wouldn't
really know exactly
The Chairman. A little louder, please,
Mr. Gentry. I am sorry.
There was some controversy, I believe — I believe I recall,
I am sorry, sir, you are asking me to remember things that at that
particular time didn't have any particular importance. There has
been quite a time lapse. I was under a very severe strain at that
particular time and was not too particularly interested with proce-
dures and things of that nature.
Mr. HiTZ. All right, sir.
Now to get back to where we were a little while ago, you were pres-
ent during the selection of the petit jury from the jury panel in your
first trial ?
Mr, Gentry. That is correct, sir.
Mr, HiTz. And even from there, to go back a little bit, are you
aware of any procedures adopted by the Klan in respect to evaluating
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3847
the members of the jury panel that were selected to try the cases in
that term of court before which your criminal trial came ?
Mr. Gentry. I plead my rights to the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Let me say this: Thus far, to practically all of
the questions before the incident of his charge before the court, which
is a matter of record, this witness has invoked the protection of the
fifth amendment, which he has a right to do.
We are now in the realm of questions beyond what is public knowl-
edge. He again has invoked the fifth amendment. Therefore, nothing
prejudicial, certainly, has occurred to this point.
I feel obligated to say to the witness, as I did at the opening of his
testimony before he testified, that he raised three points with reference
to apparent conditions under which he might or might not testify
voluntarily and truthfully under oath.
As to the first point involved, it was the question of whether or not
the committee would release his testimony. In substance, more as a
matter of policy than anything else, the Chair stated that there was
no such intention. His testimony before us would not be revealed or
made public.
As to the other two points, what I had to say is a matter of record.
In view of the attitude of the witness especially, within his rights,
invoking the protection of the fifth amendment to all questions ex-
cept matters of public knowledge, the Chair states this : We are always
very careful with reference to not releasing executive testimony, and
to whatever extent it can be said that the Chair, for the committee,
committed the committee with reference to this witness not to reveal
the testimony, I must say that the committee is no longer under any
obligation.
As a matter of policy, we will pursue good judgment and discretion,
as always, on the question of propriety of releasing testimony in
executive session.
Before any other questions or involvement, and in fairness to the
witness, I must say that whatever commitment might have been con-
strued from what I said, it does not now hold.
Proceed.
Mr. HiTz. Do you have any information — I am sorry.
The Chairman. You are under oath, and we will proceed with the
hearings.
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Did you have something you wanted to say ?
Mr. Gentry. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Do you have information with respect to efforts by mem-
bers of the Klan and your counsel at the first trial to endeavor to
secure a sympathetic petit jury for your case?
Mr. Gentry- I plead m^ rights in regard to the fifth amendment in
answer to that question, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Are you possessed of information as to — by the way, that
first jury was undecided and hung on the vote of 10 to convict and
2 to acquit; am I correct in that?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Are you possessed of information as to whether or not
there was or was not' a member of the Ku Klux Klan organization to
which you belonged on the petit jury panel?
3848 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Gentry. I plead my rights-
Mr. HiTz. I am sorry, on the petit jury.
Do you plead your fifth amendment?
Mr. Gentry. I plead the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. I think I should ask this question, and certainly
there is no intention of doing away with the confidentiality with refer-
ence to any action on the part of our investigators.
I don't know the trend of the questions, Mr. Gentry, by the inves-
tigators. But I think I ought to ask this question: With reference
to all these questions that have been asked of you, or any one of them,
did you answer them and give information to our investigators ?
By the way, let me say you have a right to invoke the fifth amend-
ment on that question.
Mr. Gentry. Before I answer that question, sir, may I ask you a
question ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Gentry. In answering this question, regardless of whether it be
affirmative or negative or by invoking the fifth, will I in any way
waive my rights to continue to answer questions in this line?
The Chairman. We will face that problem when we face it.
Mr. Pool. If you care to have counsel at this time, we can adjourn
the committee and give you time to get counsel.
I think it would be appropriate to give him that opportunity.
The Chairman. He was offered that three times.
Mr. Pool. I have reference to the last question.
Mr. Geistry. I invoke my rights to the fifth amendment in reply
to this question.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Gentry, are you possessed of information as to
whether or not there were persons believed, and perhaps known, to be
sympathetic to the Klan, other than a Klan member, who were seated
as members of the petit jury in your first trial?
Mr. Gentry. I invoke my rights to the fifth amendment in reply
to this question, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Are you possessed of information as to whether or not,
at the second trial, there were seated as members of the petit juiy any
members of the Klan ?
Mr. Gentry. I invoke my rights to the fifth amendment in reply
to this question.
Mr. HiTz. And are you possessed of any information that there
were or were not persons on the second petit jury who were believed
to be, and perhaps known to be, by counsel for the men on trial,
sympathetic to the Klan ?
Mr. Gentry. I will refer again to the fifth amendment in reply
to this question.
The Chairman. Mr. Gentry, I want to ask you this question: I
referred a while ago to any conversations you had with any one or
more of our investigators, and I indicated, or commented, that I
wasn't proposing to violate any confidentiality, if any existed.
Now I feel I must ask you this question : Did any one of our investi-
gators, and they are now before you, promise you immunity or make
you any kind of commitments that this, that, or the other would or
would not happen if you testified ?
Mr. Gentry. No, sir.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3849
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Gentry, are you possessed of information, as an al-
leged former member of the Klan, of certain procedures that were in
force in respect to acts of violence by individuals in the United
Florida Klan having to do with the authorization for the commission
of those acts of violence?
That is my question.
Mr. Gentry. I invoke my rights to the fifth amendment in answer-
to that question.
Mr. HiTz. Are you possessed of information havli^^g to do with a
committee within a Klavern, which committee might have jurisdic-
tion a little bit beyond the particular Klavern, the function of which
committee was to seek to screen certain activities of the members and,
likewise, to safeguard, through certain security measures that they
had, the persons who might commit those acts ?
Mr. Gentry. I invoke my rights under the fifth amendment in reply
to that question.
Mr. HiTZ. Have you ever heard of a group called a klokann com-
mittee ?
Mr. Gentry. I invoke my rights to the fifth amendment in reply
to that question.
Mr. Chairman, may I go on record at this point as stating something
for the record ?
The Chairman. All right, and then I will rule on it.
Mr. Gentry. A few moments ago you asked me about any promise
or grant of immunity, I believe — I don't remember the exact words,
but things of this nature — in regard to the investigators for this
committee.
I would like to go on record at this time as stating that the investi-
gators for this committee have shown me nothing but the very best
treatment and there has been no
The Chairman. I appreciate your saying that.
Mr. HiTz. Did you Imow a Klansman named Manucy or Manucey ?
Mr. Gentry. I invoke my rights to the fifth amendment in reply to
that question.
Mr. HiTZ. And particularly of two such persons, a man named
"Hoss" Manucy? Do you take the fifth on that?
Mr. Gentry. I do ; yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Have you, to your knowledge, been under investigation
for possible participation along with two or more other people in
connection with the shooting at a colored man named Striggler, a
member of the Teamsters Union?
Mr. Gentry. Would you state that question again?
Mr. HiTZ. Have you ever been under investigation for the shooting
at a colored man named Striggler, an employee of the Teamsters
Union?
Mr. Pool. He would not be an employee of the Teamsters Union.
Mr. HiTz. I beg your pardon. Thank you.
A member of the Teamsters Union.
Mr. Gentry. Sir, I was never in a position, with the exception of the
times that indictments were brought against me, to know exactly what
I was being investigated for.
Mr. HiTz. Do you have any information concerning the shooting at
Striggler ?
3850 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Gentry. I invoke my rights to the fifth amendment in reply to
that question, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Do you have information concerning the situation sur-
rounding the fact that — well, let me preface that by asking you do you
know a man named Griflfin, who was a member of the Teamsters Union,
his name being Barton Griffin ?
Mr. Gkntry. I know Barton Griffin. I don't know whether he was
a member of the Teamsters Union or not.
The Chairman. It is now 12 o'clock, and the quorum call, I know,
will be coming.
The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
(Subcommittee members present at time of recess: Representatives
Willis, Pool, Weltner, Ashbrook, and Buchanan.)
(Whereupon, at 12 :05 p.m. Wednesday, September 29, 1965, the sub-
committee recessed, to reconvene at 2 p.m. the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 1965
(The subcommittee reconvened at 2 :25 p.m., Hon. Edwin E. Willis,
chairman, presiding.)
(Subcommittee members present: Representatives Willis and
Ashbrook.)
The Chairman. The subcommittee will resume its executive hearing.
I hereby constitute as a subcommittee to conduct the executive session
this afternoon Mr. Pool, of Texas ; Mr. Ashbrook, of Ohio ; and myself,
as chairman.
Let the record show that a quorum of that subcommittee is present.
Proceed, Mr. Hitz.
Mr. HiTZ. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT PITTMAN GENTRY— Resumed
Mr. Hitz. Mr. Gentry, did you know a man named Gene Fallaw
when you were living in Florida ?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir ; I did.
Mr. Hitz. Did you know Fallaw to have been a Klansman in that
area?
Mr. Gentry. I would like to invoke the fifth amendment in reply
to that question.
Mr, Hitz. Did you know that Fallaw was one of the leading Klans-
men in a Klan organization preceding the United Florida Klan
organizacion?
Mr. Gentry. Again I invoke the fifth amenament in reply to that
question, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Did you know Fallaw to have been sought as a witness
in the trials against you and the other men for the Godfrey bombing?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir ; I did.
Mr. Hitz. To the best of your information, is it a fact that the
Government was unable to locate and serve its subpena upon Fallaw
to become a witness for the Government at your first trial ?
Mr. Gentry. No, sir; that is not correct. The information I re-
ceived was that he had been subpenaed,
Mr. Hitz. I see.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3851
Mr. Gentry. I base this on the fact that it is required by law for
the Government to issue, prior to trial, a list of subpenaed witnesses.
Mr. HiTZ. And he was on that list?
Mr. Gentry. That is correct.
Mr. HiTZ. Did Mr. Fallaw appear as a Government witness at the
trials?
Mr. Gentry. No. sir.
Mr. HiTz. Did you see Mr. Fallaw sometime fairly close before the
commencement of the first trial in Jacksonville ?
Mr. Gentry. Quite a while before ; yes.
The Chairman. Mr. Gentry
Mr. HiTz. Could I interrupt just a moment? Before we conclude,
I do have a couple of questions that will round it out, if you will let
me when you are through.
The. Chairman. I want to ask a question.
Were you involved in any bombing incident?
Mr. Gentry. I would invoke the fifth amendment in answer to that
question.
The Chairman. Did you ever use a gun, shotgun or pistol or rifle,
to fire at anybody in connection with Klan activities ?
Mr. Gentry. Would you state that again, sir ?
The Chairman. Read the question.
(The question was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Gentry. Directly at a person for the intention of harming him ?
The. Chairman. For any reason.
Mr. AsHBROOK. Harming or scaring.
Mr. Gentry. I invoke the fifth amendment in reply to that question.
The Chairman. Now, you were asked before, but I want to ask
two questions more. I think you were asked if you ever had been a
Klansman and you invoked the fifth amendment. Is that correct?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Are you a Klansman now ?
Let me say this is not a tricky question.
Mr. Gentry. It is not a tricky question ?
No, sir ; I am not a Klansman now.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Gentry, have you engaged in any Klan activities in
the State of Alabama ?
Mr. Gentry. I would invoke the fifth amendment in reply to that
question, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Have you ever been in the neighborhood of, in or near
Birmingham, Alabama, at a time when, to your knowledge, J. B.
Stoner was also there ?
Mr. Gentry. I would invoke the fifth amendment in reply to that
question.
Mr. HiTz. The Godfrey bombing was in the early morning of Febru-
ary 16, 1964, actually the night of the 15th, so to speak. Did you
separate from the Klan at some time shortly after February 16, 1964?
Mr. Gentry. I would invoke the fifth amendment in reply to that
question.
Mr. HiTz. Did you separate from the Klan prior to the arrest and
charges made against you as a result of the Godfrey bombing?
Mr. Gentry. Will you please state that question again ?
3852 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLTJX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. HiTz. Did you separate from the Klan prior to your arrest and
charges growing out of the Godfrey bombing ?
Mr. Gentry. I would invoke the fifth amendment in reply to that
question.
Mr. HiTz. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. The Chair will say this : The committee will stand
in recess until further call of the Chair.
Now, Mr. Gentry, you are now under subpena. You realize that?
Mr. Gentry. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you are not released from that subpena. I
hereby extend the effectiveness of the date of the subpena to November
10. That means that unless otherwise notified to appear either before
or after that date or not at all, you will report on November 10.
I want to say to you that I and the committee regret that you saw
fit to take the position that you did, but that is a matter between you
and your conscience. It is also, of course, a matter of the protection of
the constitutional guarantees accorded to you.
However, because you did not choose to give us information that
we happen to know you possess, I want you to know that one reason
for the continuance of that subpena is for your own protection. If a
Federal subpena has meaning at all, I want to tell you that if as a result
of your appearance you are threatened or intimidated or harm should
come to you, if I have any powers of persuasion or influence, that will
will be the law, the subpena will be strictly enforced as far as I am
concerned.
The committee stands in recess- until further notice.
(Subcommittee members present at time of recess : Representatives
Willis and Ashbrook.)
(Whereupon, at 2:38 p.m. Wednesday, September 29, 1965, the
subcommittee recessed, suDJect to call of the Chair.)
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN ORGANIZATIONS
IN THE UNITED STATES
Part 5
WEDNESDAY, JULY 28, 1965
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
CoMMnTEE on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ B.C.
executive session ^
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to call, at 10 a.m., in Room 313-A, Cannon House Office
Building, Washington, D.C., Hon. Charles L. Weltner (chairman of
the subcommittee) presiding.
(Subcommittee members: Representatives Charles L. Weltner, of
Georgia, chairman; John M. Ashbrook, of Ohio; and John H.
Buchanan, Jr., of Alabama.)
Subcommittee members present : Representatives Weltner and Ash-
brook.
Staff members present : William Hitz, general counsel, and Don Ap-
pell, chief investigator.
Mr. Weltner. The subcommittee will come to order. Without ob-
jection I will place into the record a copy of the committee resolution
of March 30, 1965, providing for the conduct of the investigation into
the Ku Klux Klan and related organizations.
I will also place into the record the letter of the chairman of this
committee dated July 28, 1965, directed to the director appointing as
a subcommittee pursuant to the resolution of March 30, 1965, the fol-
lowing members of this committee: myself as chairman, Honorable
John M. Ashbrook and Honorable John H. Bunchanan as members.
(The documents referred to follow :)
July 28. 1965.
To: Mr. Francis J. McNamara
Director, Committee on Un-American Activities
Pursuant to the provisions of the law and the Rules of this Committee, I
hereby appoint a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities con-
sisting of Honorable Charles L. Weltner as Chairman, and Honorable John M.
Ashbrook and Honorable John H. Buchanan, Jr., as associate members, to con-
duct hearings in "Washington, D.C., commencing on or about Wednesday, July
28, 1965, and/or at such other times thereafter and places as said subcommittee
1 Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.
3853
3854 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
shall determine, as contemplated by the resolution adopted by the Committee
on the 30th day of March, 1965, authorizing hearings concerning the activities
of the various Ku Klux Klan organi2sations in the United States.
Please make this action a matter of Committee record.
If any member indicates his inability to serve, please notify me.
Given under my hand this 28th day of July, 1965.
/s/ Edwin E. Willis,
Edwin E. Wilus,
Chairman, Committee on Un-American Activities.
COMMITTEE RESOLUTION
March 30, 1965
WHEREAS, at the commencement of the 89th Congress the Chairman in-
structed the staff to commence a preliminary inquiry into the activities of the
Ku Klux Klan organizations in the United States to assist the Committee in
determining whether it should authorize an investigation of the Klan organiza-
tions; and
WHEREAS, the Committee on February 2, 1965, by resolution, unanimously
directed the Chairman to continue the preliminary inquiry ; and
WHEREAS, the Chairman has today made a report to the Committee on the
results of this preliminary inquiry, which report clearly indicates that the
nature and scope of the Klan organizations' activities are such that the Com-
mittee should authorize an investigation ; and
WHEREAS, the President's recent public appeal also demonstrates that such
an investigation is justified and necessary ; and
WHEREAS, the President has offered the full cooperation of the Executive
Branch of the Government in such an investigation; now therefore,
BE IT RESOLVED, that the Committee undertake an investigation of the
various Klan organizations and their activities with the view of holding hearings
for the purpose of aiding Congress in any necessary remedial legislation ; and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that inasmuch as the appropriation for the
Committee's work for this session is not suflBcient to enable it to undertake
this investigation in addition to other investigations already approved and
under way, the Chairman is directed to request a supplemental appropriation
of $50,000 to conduct an investigation of Ku Klux Klan organizations ; and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that the Chairman is directed to continue
the preliminary inquiry into the activities of the Black Muslims, the Minutemen
and the American Nazi Party previousily authorized by the Committee, for the
purpose of determining whether an investigation of these groups is called for.
Mr. Weltner. At this point Mr. Appell will appear as the first wit-
ness.
* * * m * iti nt
[The next witness called was Royal V. Young, Sr.]
Mr. Weltner. Raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the t-estimony you give in this hearing
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Young. I do.
( Suiboommittee members present: Representatives Weltner, Ash-
brook, and Buchanan.)
TESTIMONY OF ROYAL VIRGIN YOUNG, SR.
Mr. Hrrz. Mr. Young, ^ive your full name to the record, please.
Mr. Young. Royal Virgm Young, Sr.
Mr. HiTZ. Your address?
Mr. Young. Route 1, McDade, Louisiana.
Mr. Hrrz. Is that in Bossier County ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3855
Mr. Young. Bossier Parish.
Mr. HiTz. Your occupation?
Mr. Young. Locomotive engineer.
Mr. HiTZ. For what road?
Mr. Young. Illinois Central.
Mr. HiTz. You are active in that work now, are you ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Weltner. We will suspend the hearing for a brief recess.
(A brief recess was taken.)
Mr. Weltner. Back on the record.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Young, would you state further to identify you and
then I have some procedural questions to ask. You are active in the
railroad business and you take trips out of Bossier Parish?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir; I go from Bossier City, Louisiana, to Vicks-
burg, Mississippi, as my run.
Mr. HiTZ. Several times a week ?
Mr. Young. Well, I would say two trips one week, maybe three
trips the next.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Young, the record will show, and we note, that you
are not accompanied by counsel today. I want to advise you that you
have a right to have counsel here as a witness before this subcommittee
and I would like to know whether you desire to have counsel or
whether you will expressly waive your right to have counsel here
today with you.
Mr. Young. Sir, I don't know whether it would be to my advantage
to have counsel or not. Would it ?
Mr. HiTz. What is your wish, since you have the right to have one
and because, then, of that right you may avail yourself of the oppor-
tunity to get a counsel here in Washington or to send for one if it does
not cause too much delay ? We want to know if you want to go for-
ward without counsel and thereby waive your right, or whether you
want to avail yourself of the right and obtain counsel.
Mr. Young. I waive that right.
Mr. Weltner. The Chair will advise the witness there is no irre-
vocable waiver of his right to have counsel. If you feel at any time
during the course of these proceedings that you would like to have
counsel, then you simply make that right known and your right
continues.
If you wish to proceed now without counsel, we will proceed accord-
ing to your desires.
Mr. Young. I will proceed now.
Mr. HiTz. Yesterday you were interviewed by Mr. Appell and my
self in our office here in Washington ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. At that time we discussed the matter of counsel, and you
stated that you did not desire to have counsel ; is that right?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Did you bring a copy with you of a subpena that was
served upon you by Mr. Appell representing the committee?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Would you produce it, please ?
(Witness complies.)
3856 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. HiTZ. When was this served upon you and where, Mr. Young?
Mr. Young. I believe it was sometime in Jime. The exact date I
don't remember, but it was at my home.
Mr. HiTZ. Did Mr. Appell, who sits on my right here, serve it on
you?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Would you please look at the pink copy which I am
handing you and tell me whether that appears to be a copy of the
white copy that was served upon you ?
Mr. Young. Sir, it looks like a duplicate copy.
Mr. HiTZ. Before I ask you any further questions, I want to advise
you that you have available to you here, as you do in most places,
the privilege against self-incrimination in the Federal Constitution.
Because of that, you need not answer any question, the answer to
which you honestly and in good faith believe might furnish a link or
tend to incriminate you or lead you into a prosecution, either an ill-
founded one or a proper prosecution, for any crime either State or
Federal.
You are no doubt aware of that privilege and generally the scope of
that privilege ; are you not, sir ?
Mr. Young. Yes.
Mr. HiTz. As a matter of fact, yesterday in the interview that we
have already referred to, we went into that several times and at some
breadth and depth ; did we not ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir ; you explained it to me.
Mr. HiTz. I explained it quite fully, did I not ?
Mr. Young. I have an understanding of it.
Mr. HiTz. You came here with an understanding anyway of this
self-incrimination privilege that you have ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir ; that is right.
Mr. HiTZ. That abided with you today ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. With respect to this subpena, I would like to read a
Eortion of it for the record. The first part of it requires you to be
ere on July 27, 1965, at 10 :30, in the offices of the Committee on Un-
American Activities, then and there to testify touching matters of
inquiry committed to said committee.
Then in addition you are directed by this subpena to bring with
you and to produce before the committee :
All records in his possession or under his control relating to the organization
known as the Original Knights of the Ku Klux
Can I see your copy ?
(Witness complies.)
Mr. HiTz. [Continues reading :]
— [Klan] of which organization he is the former Imperial Dragon. Such records
shall include correspondence, financial books of accounts and reports, reports
received from Dens, Klans or Klaverns of said organization, and minutes of all
meetings attended by him or which came into his possession by reason of the
office he held, namely, Imperial Dragon.
I want to remind you that the subpena is directed to you, Royal V.
Young, on the top line, as you can observe from your original copy.
Is that right, sir?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3857
Mr. Young. That is right.
Mr. HiTZ. Therefore, when the pronoun "he" and the adjective
"his" is used in what I just read, directing you to bring certain books
and records, the reference is to you, Royal V. Young. You under-
stand that?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. I would like to offer the pink carbon copy of the subpena
into evidence, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Weltner. It will be received.
(Document marked "Royal Young Exhibit No. 1" and retained in
committee files.)
Mr. HiTz. Do you have any of the records with you called for in
the subpena, Mr. Young?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Why do you not have any of those records, sir?
Mr. Young. I destroyed them.
Mr. HiTz. Wlien did you destroy them ?
Mr. Young. It must have been some time around March of 1964.
Mr. HiTZ. When you were served with this subpena which your orig-
inal copy will note — anyway, whenever you were served with it, did
you have in your possession or under your control, in any fashion
available to you, any of the documents that were described and covered
by the subpena?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
May I ask one question?
Mr. HiTz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Young. By those documents, can you verify that a little clearer
for me?
Mr. HiTz. Do you mean the description of them ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Well, the description of the papers and records that are
contained in the subpena here is what I am asking about. Do you want
me to clarify that— —
Mr. Young. Minutes and records and things of that sort ?
Mr. HiTz. All records at the top of this. Would you look at this
copy with me? [Reading:]
All records in his possession or under his control relating to the organization
known as the Original Knights of the Ku Klux [Klan] of which organization he
is the former Imperial Dragon. * * *
Mr. Young. Yes, sir ; I destroyed all of those records that I had in
1964.
Mr. HiTZ. Is there any question in your mind here today about the
coverage, the scope of this subpena, as to whether or not it might in-
clude some papers that you did have in your possession at the time
when Mr. Appell served you with this subpena ?
Mr. Young. I — no, I don't think so.
Mr. HiTZ. I asked you that because you — because of what you just
asked me.
Mr. Young. The reason I asked that is because they had a piece of
paper called "Fifty Reasons" and that is just a commercial print. It
does not pertain to the Klan. It is just the reason why you joined
the Klan, and I had a few of those. It is just a public form that they
3858 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
put out, but I don't have any records pertaining to the Ku Klux Klan,
no, sir ; I destroyed them.
Mr. Hrrz. You don't have in your mind here today that this sub-
pena only calls for minutes and certain formal records of that sort?
Mr. Young. No; I understand what you mean.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Appell is going to interrogate the
witness on the structure and the organization of the Klan and his
connection with it.
Mr. Weltner. Proceed, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Young, are you now, or have you ever been, a
member of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir. I am not now, I would not say.
Mr. Appell. Would you answer what you mean by you "would not
say"?
Mr. Young. I mean that I resigned, as I went over it with you ; or I
did not resign, but I became inactive or I gave up. Let's say I did
not tender a letter of resignation, but I quit taking part in the Klan
in the first part of 1964. I severed my connection.
Mr. Appell. When did you first become a member of the Ku Klux
Klan?
Mr. Young. Sir, I think it was in either the latter part of '60 or
theearly part of 1961. I am not sure.
Mr. Appell. Was this the first time you had ever held Klan
membership ?
Mr. Young. No, sir; I held a Klan membership in 1924 as a junior
Klansman.
Mr. Appell. When you joined the Klan in 1924, to what national
organization of the Klan were you affiliated ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I think that was the Original Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Appell. How long did you maintain a membership in the
Klan in 1924?
Mr. Young. Sir, I went away to the Marine Corps in August 1924,
and I believe I had joined in June. I imagine I never even made a
meeting.
Mr. Appell. When did you again join the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Young. In 1961 or 1960. I believe it was the first part of 1961.
Mr. Appell. What organization of the Ku Klux Klan did you join
at that time ?
Mr. Young. The Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Appell. In joining the organization in 1960 or 1961, did you
make an application for new membership or an application for read-
mission ?
Mr. Young. Just a regular application.
Mr. Appell. Into what Klavern of the Original Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan were you naturalized ?
Mr. Young. It was in Bossier.
Mr. Appell. What was the designation of this Klan unit to which
you were naturalized?
Mr. Young. That is all I know at that time, the Bossier Klan.
Mr. Appell. It had no numerical designation within the structure
of the Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Young. That I could not say, to tell you the truth, I could not.
I imagine it was either second or third one at that time.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3859
Mr. Appell. In the reorganization of the Original Knights in 1960-
1961, as each Klavern was chartered did they start with the first and
give it Klavern Number 1 where it was located, Shreveport, and the
next Klavern Number 2 of whatever area it was located in, and the
next Klavern, Bossier, Klavern Number 3 ? Is this the way they were
organized ?
Mr. Young. There was a procedure ; yes.
Mr. Appell. That was the procedure.
At the time that you were naturalized and participated in a naturali-
zation ceremony, did you subscribe to certain oaths required of you by
the Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I took an oath.
Mr. Appell. I hand you a copy of an oath, not the one which you
took, but a copy of those issued to Klansmen. I ask you to examine
this and to tell us whether or not in substance the oath of allegiance,
the obedience, secrecy, Klanishness, were similar to the oath to which
you subscribed ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I wish to invoke the fifth amendment on that be-
cause it may come back to something else.
(Document previously marked "John Swenson Exhibit No. 1.") ^
Mr. Weltner. The witness will be advised that the fifth amendment
enables him to refuse to answer. It is his privilege where he feels that
the answer may tend to incriminate him or furnish some substance for
prosecution in a State or Federal proceeding.
The fifth amendment is not available to the witness on the basis
that it would cause him to violate any oath which he took. In other
words, Mr. Witness, you do not have, under the Constitution, the
privilege of refusing to answer any question on the grounds that it
would violate any Klan oath or any other oath that you took.
Mr. Young. Sir, I was not lookmg at it that way. I was looking
that this may come back on me that I had taken that oath and I may
be prosecuted some day.
Mr. Weltner. I wish to make that clear. The witness has every
right to take the fifth amendment where he feels that it might tend to
incriminate him. He has no right to take it on the grounds that he
is taking it on the Klan oath. If that is clear, the witness' refusal
on the grounds of the fifth is proper and you may proceed.
[Mr. Appell. Yesterday, in the series of interviews Mr. Young iden-
tified these as the series of oaths he took, during the naturalization.
Mr. Weltner. With the consent of the other members I will ask
that that statement be stricken from the record and if at any time in
the future it is necessary to call any other witnesses that will be done,
but at this time we will proceed with the questioning of the witness.
Mr. Appell. It is the committee's information according to the in-
vestigation that the Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan was or-
ganized in Shreveport, Louisiana, in December 1960. Did you par-
ticipate in any of the meetings which led up to the reorganization of
the Original Knights or organization of the Original Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
1 These oaths similar in form to those used by the United Klans of America, Inc. See
Robert Shelton Exhibit No. 4.
3860 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. How long after you were naturalized into the Bossier
Klavern of the Original Knights did you hold an office within that
organization ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. How long thereafter ?
Mr. Young. Sir, it could not have been very long.
Mr. Appell. Were you elected or appointed to the office that you
held?
Mr. Young. I was elected to that office ; yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. You were elected to that office.
To what office were you elected ?
Mr. Young. Louisiana division, vice president.
Mr. Appell. In the structure of the Klavern, the klaliff was the vice
president ?
Mr. Young. That is right.
Mr. Appell. Wlien did the Bossier Klavern hold its election of
officers ?
Mr. Young. I think they all held their elections at the end of the
year.
Mr. Appell. In the month of December ?
Mr. Young. In the month of December.
Mr. Appell. So at the time you were elected to office, were you
elected as a temporary officer or were you elected as a permanent
officer to fulfill a term of office of 1 year ?
Mr. Young. They were starting another Klavern, and I was elected
as temporary klaliff to that new Klavern.
Mr. Appell. How long did you hold the office of klaliff?
Mr. Young. Sir, I could not put down any specified time in number
of days.
Mr. Appell. To the best of your recollection, a month, 2 months ?
Mr. Young. I would say 2 or 3 months, something of that sort,
possibly more.
Mr. Appell. At the time you were elected klaliff, or vice president,
who was the president or, in the Klan called, the exalted cyclops of the
Bossier Klavern ?
Mr. Young. Buddy Gibbs.
Mr. Appell. Buddy Gibbs?
Mr. Young. That is right.
Mr. Appell. Other officers within that Klavern in addition to
klaliff is the secretary, known as the kligrapp. Who held that office
at the time you were the klaliff ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I would not want to say because I don't rightly
remember.
Mr. Appell. Who held the office of treasurer, known as klabee ?
Mr. Young. The same thing.
Mr. Appell. You don't remember ?
Mr. Young. No, sir, I can't, because that has been quite awhile a^o
and I have seen lots of people and heard lots of names since I was m
that organization. I would not want to name a man unless I knew
specifically within my memory.
Mr. Appell. We don't want you to name a man, Mr. Young, unless
you remember clearly and distinctly.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3861
Mr. Young. That is right, that is what I thought.
Mr. Appell. Another office within the Klavern would be that of the
klokard or lecturer. Who held that office ?
Mr. Young. Sir, may I tell you that I don't remember all of the
officers.
Mr. Appell. Let me make it simple. What other offices or officers do
you remember as to the identity of the people who held those offices
during the time you were klaliff ?
Mr. Young. I don't remember any of them except that one that I
gave you.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Young, when you answer as you just have, I want
to make it clear to you that we would not expect you in your answer
to, or by making your answer to have been present when these officers
either took their oath of office, if they did, or were elected or appointed.
But if they performed the function of the particular offices about
which we are asking you and you knew they were performing those
functions, our question would include did they do that, even though
I repeat you may not have been present when they were elected or
appointed or sworn in.
Do you understand what I have just said, that if they performed
the fimction of the office, that is sufficient to come within the meaning
of our question? You understand that, sir, do you not?
Mr. Young. May I answer that in a way that would explain my
part of it?
Mr. HiTz. Yes, please do.
Mr. Young. I was elected to this office but then my duties on the
railroad at that time — I was on the extra call and I was called out.
Now I could not say positively that any man served because I did
not make the meetings for several months, until I was appointed Grand
Giant. When I was appointed Grand Giant, then I had other duties.
Mr. HiTZ. So that you are not resorting to any technicality in the
way you answer ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I would not want to name anybody if I was in
doubt, and I am in doubt. I don't want to if I am in doubt. If I
were positive, I would tell you.
Mr. Appell. Who recruited you into membership into the Klan ?
Mr. Young. I believe it was Brother Swenson.
Mr. Appell. Would you identify Brother Swenson fully, by his
full name?
Mr. Young. Sir, I don't know his full name. All I know — all I
can do is give you his initials.
Mr. Appell. By whatever identities you can give then.
Mr. Young. It is J. D. Swenson.
Mr. Appell. At the time that he recruited you into membership,
what did you know him to be within the Klan organization ?
Mr. Young. At that time he was known as the Grand Dragon.
Mr. Appell. To whom did you pay your klectokon or initiation fee 2
Mr. Young. That was taken in the night I was initiated.
Mr. Appell. To whom did you pay it?
Mr. Young. Sir, I don't know. They were hooded.
Mr. Appell. As a member of the Klavern, what were the dues of
Klavern membership at that time?
59-222 O— 67 — pt. 5 25
3862 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Young. $10.
Mr. Appell. The dues?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. You are talking about the initiation ?
Mr. Young. No, I am talking about the initiation fee.
Mr. Appell. I am now asking you about the dues.
Mr. Young. The dues to the Klavern would have been $1 a month.
Mr. Appell. $1 a month.
Mr. Young. $1 per month.
Mr. Appell. Now to whom did you pay your dues ?
Mr. Young. You want me to be truthful. I never paid any dues
until I was made Grand Dragon because I was not active in that
Klavern.
Mr. Appell. How long did you hold the office of klaliff in that
Klavern ?
Mr. Young. I was made temporary klaliff and as I said it was 2
or 3 months, I imagine, because I did not go back, Mr. Appell. I
could not make the meetings.
Mr. Appell. How long did you hold the office, no matter how long
you could not go back ?
Mr. Young. I suppose there was someone acting at the meetings.
Mr. Appell. I say how long did you hold it, how long did you con-
sider yourself to be the klaliff of the Klavern ?
Mr. Young. Actually I was not the klaliff because I did not serve.
Mr. Appell. Did you hold an office other than klaliff within the
Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. What other offices did you hold ?
Mr. Young. I was Grand Dragon. That is the position I was
elevated to.
Mr. Appell. How did you become elevated to the position of Grand
Dragon ?
Mr. Young. I was appointed.
Mr. Appell. Who appointed you?
Mr. Young. Swenson.
Mr. Appell. At that time what j>osition did he hold ?
Mr. Young. At that time I imagine he was still the Grand Dragon.
Mr. Appell. A Grand Dragon in the organization of the Original
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan is the mp,n who has charge of a state
or realm ; is that right ?
Mr. Young. That is right.
Mr. Appell. What were the offices in the chain of command in the
Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan at the time you were appointed
to the position of Grand Giant ?
Mr. Young. At the time I was appointed ?
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir. I am now only talking about the offices.
Mr. Young. Who was in that? He was the only one on the na-
tional or state level as they called it then.
Mr. Appell. I am only talking about the offices. The only office
was the Grand Dragon ?
Mr. Young. That is right because they were just starting back.
Mr. Appell. Then he appointed you as the acting
Mr. Young. Grand Giant.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3863
Mr. Appell. Why did he appoint you as the Acting Grand Giant
when you were a man who had been in the Klan for just a period of
6 months or so, never active in your Klavern ?
Mr. Young. That is up to Swenson ; I could not say. I guess it was
because I knew the work. I don't know.
Mr. Weltner. What were the duties of the Grand Giant ?
Mr. Young. The duties at that time was to serve on the Grand
Dragon's staff.
Mr. Weltner. This was not an office such as a vice president or
secretary or any of the normal offices, but assistant to the Grand
Dragon ?
Mr. Young. Vice president and things like that were in the Klavems.
Mr. Appell. As the organization within the State of Louisiana was
formed, what other grand offices were created ?
Mr. Young. What other grand offices were created ?
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Young. As I was elevated to the status that you have on this
subpena, there was another Grand Giant appointed.
Mr. Appell. I am not talking about that, sir. The Grand Dragon
and the Grand Giant, what other grand offices were there? Was
there a Grand Klaliff or secretary on the State level ?
Mr. Young. Not yet.
Mr. Appell. When did this take place ?
Mr. Young. That took place after I became Imperial Dragon and
tried to straighten it out.
Mr. Appell, I know it is confusing to you, but it is still confusing in
my mind.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Appell asked the witness to relate chronologi-
cally the offices. Just tell us in your own words.
Mr. Young. When you start organizing or bring something back,
regardless of what it is, a company or anything, you grow as you add
officers. If you have no growth, there are no officers to be added, and
I imagine they were adding them at that time.
Mr. Weltner. We understand clearly that the only officer on the
realm level was Mr. Swenson and he placed you as his assistant.
Mr. Young. That is right.
Mr. Weltner. There were no other offices at that time ?
Mr. Young. Not at that time.
Mr. Weltner. Then the organization grew. Could you tell us the
growth of that and your progression from one office to another ?
Mr. Young. The other offices that were added when I took place,
was the Grand Giant in my place.
Mr. Appell. When were you elevated to an office other than Grand
Giant? How many months had you held the office of Grand Giant
until you were elevated to the next office that you held 2
Mr. Young. Very shortly.
Mr. Appell. What was the next office that you held ?
Mr. Young. Imperial Dragon.
Mr. Appell. What was the relationship to the organization of the
Imperial Dragon ? Were your responsibilities broader than one State ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir ; at that one time I guess they had grand illu-
sions that they would build and the Imperial Wizard was getting
3864 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S.
old, I guess, and they appointed me to the Imperial Wizard's position.
I imagine it is something like a vice president. In other words, they
have a lot of vice presidents. They have a vice president of this and
a vice president of that and they made me an Imperial Wizard.
Mr. Appell. Who reactivated the Original Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan?
Mr. Young. Roy E. Davis, Sr.
Mr. Appell. Where was Mr. Roy E. Davis, Sr., residing ?
Mr. Young. In Dallas, Texas.
Mr. Appell. With respect to the Original Knights was his position
an honorary one, or did he take a position of active leadership from
Dallas, Texas, into the Realm and Klaverns in the State of Louisiana?
Mr. Young. Sir, you are asking me a question that I cannot answer
after taking an oath, because I rightfully could not answer that. I
know him to be the Imperial Wizard, but if he was made or elevated
or took oaths I could not say because I rightfully don't know. I sup-
posed him to be.
Mr. Weltner. We are not trying to get you to say anything you
don't know. As in any proceeding, some of the questions you can't
answer. As in any proceeding there will be questions you can't an-
swer, but all you need say is you don't know.
Mr. Young. To my understanding, he was the Imperial Wizard.
Mr. Weltner. That is all. We are not trying to elicit
Mr. Young. The question Mr. Appell asked me went broader than
that. He wanted to know if I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt. I
don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt, sir.
Mr. Weltner. We are just trying to determine what you know
according to your best recollection.
Mr. Young. I could not prove that he is the Imperial Wizard.
I don't have anything to prove it.
Mr. Appell. Who appointed you to your position of Imperial
Dragon ?
Mr. Young. Roy E. Davis, Sr.
Mr. Appell. What other officers were there on the imperial level
besides the Imperial Wizard, Roy E. Davis, and yourself as the Im-
perial Dragon ?
Mr. Young. I know of no other officer.
Mr. Appell. Was there an organizer on the imperial level ?
Mr. Young. No, sir ; not that I know of.
Mr. Appell. What organizational title did Mr. J. D. Swenson have,
whom you also identified as the Grand Dragon ?
Mr. Young. He was organizer.
Mr. Appell. Was he an organizer on the imperial level or were his
organizational responsibilities restricted to the State of Louisiana?
Mr. Young. It was on a national level.
Mr. Appell. But he was not considered to be the Imperial Kleagle ?
Mr. Young. No, sir, because to be an imperial officer — I don't know
this but I was told this — that you had to be a member of the Klan for
several years. I don't believe Mr. Swenson came to requirement. He
had been a national officer.
Mr. Appell. On the imperial staff level, the only two imperial offi-
cers that you know of were the Imperial Wizard and the Imperial
Dragon, which was yourself ?
Mr. Young. Those are the only two I know, sir.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE TJ.S. 3865
Mr. Appell. As the organization grew and there became need for
additional realm or state officers, what offices were created within the
state?
Mr. Young. The Grand Giant's office and Acting Grand Dragon's
office and the Acting Grand Giant's office.
Mr. Appell. Was there ever created a grand kleagle — a grand kli-
grapp or secretary ?
Mr. Young. At that time, there was not.
Mr. Appell. Wlien was this created to the best of your recollection ?
Mr. Young. To the best of my recollection it was created after I be-
came the Imperial Dragon.
Mr. Appell. When approximately did you become the Imperial
Dragon ?
Mr. Young. The first part of 1963.
Mr. Appell. The first part of 1963 ?
Mr. Young. That is right, or the latter part of 1962. I am not
quite sure.
Mr. Appell. At the time you became the Imperial Dragon and
created the other realm offices, what other realms or grand offices were
created ?
Mr. Young. Mr. Chairman, sir, may I clarify one thing ?
Mr. Weltner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Young. These dates, had I known that you needed specific
dates, I would have tried to refresh my memory otherwise than here.
Now, when I left this organization, it had been over a year ago. I sev-
ered my connection and I have never thought of it since. Therefore
I can't pinpoint the exact dates that I did so and so, or did not do so
and so.
Mr. Weltner. We understand that, Mr. Young. We are just ask-
ing for your best recollection on the matter.
This committee will stand in recess until 12 :30.
During that time — we will return at 12 :30 after lunch — if you can,
Mr. Young, we will ask that you do as best you can to refresh your
recollection.
Mr. Young. I have nothing to refresh them with.
Mr. Weltner. The committee will be in recess.
(Subcommittee members present : Representatives Weltner, Buchan-
an, and Ashbrook.)
(Wliereupon, at 11:15 a.m., Wednesday, July 28, 1965, the sub-
mittee recessed, to reconvene at 12:30 p.m. the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— WEDNESDAY, JULY 28, 1965
(The subcommittee reconvened at 12:40 p.m., Hon. Charles L.
Weltner, chairman of the subcommittee, presiding.)
(Subcommittee members present: Representatives Weltner and
Buchanan.)
Mr. Weltner. The subcommittee will come to order.
TESTIMONY OF EOYAL VIRGIN YOUNG, SR.— Resumed
Mr. Appell. Mr. Young, just before we broke for a recess because
of a no quorum call on the floor of tlie House, you made a statement
to the Chair that, if you had known that we were interested in precise
3866 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
dates, you would have refreshed your memory in order to have been
able to supply us with precise dates.
By what method not available to you here in Washington, but avail-
able in Louisiana, could you have refreshed your recollection on pre-
cise dates ?
Mr. Young. I probably could have tried to get ahold of Mr. Swen-
son and find out if he knew. That would have taken some doing, but I
would have tried. But you told me down there at my house, Mr.
Appell, that you wanted to know the working parts of the organiza-
tion. I told you I would be willing to tell you that. I did not know I
was going to have to supply exact dates on when I became an officer,
because that is quite awhile back, sir. If I told you I was an officer, I
certainly would not want to hide the date I became the officer.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Young, we are not going to pursue this further.
I was just interested in the source, but the thing is that when I inter-
viewed you, you would neither admit nor deny
Mr. Young. No, sir, I would not.
Mr. Appell. — that you had ever been the Imperial Dragon.
Mr. Young. No, sir. I had every right. I did not know who you
were. You come down there with some credentials you know ; I have
been served with credentials before that looked good, but they were
not good. I do — I could not tell who you were really, Mr. Appell,
imtil you handed me the subpena.
Then when you handed me the subpena, I told you I would be there ;
didn't I ? I said, if I can't, I will let you know. I will come early or
wire you or call you, or something, and find out.
Mr. Appell. Now, we talked about your appointment as Imperial
Dragon by Imperial Wizard Roy A. Davis.
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. You told us that after your appointment as Imperial
Dragon, you attempted to reorganize the State organization of the
Original Knights and that, thereafter, a complete set of State offices
were designated and appointments made to them.
Mr. Young. That is right.
Mr. Appell. Now would you tell me approximately when this took
place ?
Mr. Young. Sir, after I became the Imperial Dragon, it was in a
period before I became him, it was already established, but there had
been dissension and breakups. Sir, I don't know any of that. I did
not want to go into that. The less you know about things, the better
off you are. I immediately took over, myself, and tried to put an
organization together.
I have been in organization work, not in this Klan organization, but
I have been in unions, and things like that, and done work and helped
do work and put together organizations. And I know to make an
organization work, you must have an advisory head.
So then when I became the Imperial Dragon, I tried to straighten
out this, and I put together, I let them make the appointments, and
they appointed this Murry Martin that I told you yesterday. You
asked me, and I told you
Mr, Weltner. Appointed whom ?
Mr. Appell. Murry H. Martin.
ACTIVrriES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3867
Mr. Young. To take the place that I had held.
Mr. Weltner. As Grand Giant ?
Mr. Young. Grand Giant ; yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Then were there other State offices created under your
leadership as Imperial Dragon ?
iMr. Young. Yes; there was one more- Mr. Martin — he wanted
an assistant, so he took this Mr. Wilder, Grady Wilder, as his assistant.
Mr. Appell. Grady Wilder.
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. And Grady Wilder was then designated by Mr. Martin
to be the Assistant Grand Giant ?
Mr. Young. That is right.
Mr. Appell. All right, sir. Now at the time that you were elevated
to the office of the Imperial Dragon, did Mr. J. D. Swenson continue
as the Grand Dragon ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir. He was supposed to continue until the first
of 1964.
Mr. Appell. All right, sir. Now at the same time, were other
State offices created ?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. Well, when was the office of grand kligrapp created,
the State secretary ? When was that office created ?
Mr. Young. You mean — that was created a little bit later.
Mr. Appell. Well, approximately what time, 1963 ?
Mr. Young. Yfes, it was in 1963. The first part of 1963.
Mr. Appell. All right, the first part of 1963.
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. All right now, did they appoint a grand klabee or
grand treasurer ? An office. Did they create the office of
Mr. Young. No, no, this same office took care of both treasury and
secretary.
Mr. Appell. All right, sir.
Now did they also have on a State level a man who would be known
as the chief of the Klan Bureau of Investigation?
Mr. Young. That came later. Sir, you asked me about that. Not
before.
Mr, Appell. When did that come ?
Mr. Young. That was sometime in 1963.
Mr. Appell. Sometime in 1963. Now were there any other offices
of a State level ?
Mr. Young. No, sir ; I think that fulfills the bill.
Mr. Appell. How about a grand kleagle ?
Mr. Young. Now wait a minute. I will refute that statement. I
don't mean to say that was the end of it. There was an organizer.
Mr. Appell. An organizer.
Mr. Young. To help Swenson.
Mr. Appell. All right. Now in addition to Grand Dragon, did
Swenson hold another office as National Kleagle?
iMr. Young. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Appell. So he held two offices. And then he had an assistant
organizer who was known as the grand kleagle? I guess
3868 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Young. You see, maybe I can explain that to you, sir.
Mr. Appell. Please do.
Mr. Young. In this interim, there was a lot of dissension, and we
was lettmg temporary officers go until the first of 1964. Then we
would have created regular assigned offices. You understand what I
mean?
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Mr. Young. But during 1963, we had a lot of trouble, a lot of dissen-
sion. And, of course, I guess you and Mr. Hitz both can understand
that.
Mr. Appell. Now you have identified J. D. Swenson as the tempo-
rary Grand Dragon. You have identified Mr.
Mr. Young. Well, he was the Grand Dragon.
Mr. Appell. Well, Grand Dragon. You have identified Mr. Murry
H. Martin as the Grand Giant.
Mr. Young. That is right.
Mr. Appell. You have identified Mr. Grady Wilder as the Assist-
ant Grand Giant.
Mr. Young. That is right.
Mr. Appell. Wlio held the position of grand secretary -treasurer ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I would rather not discuss that. I think we went
into it. And I am sorry, but
Mr. Appell. Well, on what grounds do you refuse to discuss it ?
iMr. Weltner. One moment. The Chair will advise the witness that
he is under a legal compulsion to answer every question to the best of
his recollection, knowledge, and belief unless he chooses to claim the
constitutional privilege provided him in the fifth amendment.
Now, with that advice, I will ask Mr. Appell to put the question
once again to the witness.
Mr. Appell. Wlio held the position of grand secretary-treasurer ?
Mr. Young. Sir, that would involve me later, and I wish not to dis-
cuss it. I would like to invoke the fifth amendment on that, if I may.
Mr. Weltner. Very well. Proceed, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appeljl,. All right. Now who headed the position of — fulfilled
the position of chief of the Klan Bureau of Investigation ?
Mr. Young. Sir, that was knowledge, and I agreed to it, Robert
Fuller.
Mr. Weltner. Thank you.
Mr. Appell. Robert Fuller?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Who is Robert Fuller?
Mr. Young. Sir, he is a man. Tliat is all I can tell you. And the
position, I did not go into the background or anything else. Well
when an officer was appointed to me, he was — I could not tell you
whether he was a saint or what he was, sir. I am sorry.
Mr. Appell. Where was he from ?
Mr. Young. He was from Monroe, Louisiana.
Mr. Appell. What was his employment?
Mr. Young. That, I could not tell you that. I believe that he was
in the septic tank business.
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir. Now did Mr. Robert Fuller have an assistant
to him such as Mr. Martin had to him ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE TJ.S. 3869
Mr. Young. Sir, if he did, I know naught of it. That was not—
I did not go into things like that, with the position I held. They was
entitled to, if they wanted.
Mr. Appell. Did you know Charlie Pearson ?
Mr. Young. Charlie Pearson. I met him one time, sir.
Mr. Appell. Did you know him to be the assistant chief of the Klan
Bureau of Investigation ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I was told. I could not prove it or anything else.
Mr. Appell. Who was the grand kleagle?
Mr. Young. The grand kleagle we have already discussed that. It
was Houston P. Morris.
Mr. Appell. I thought we discussed him as the National Kleagle. I
am asking you about the
Mr. Young. The grand and the national — understand, let me ex-
plain that now. The national sir, would have been the grand officers
of each State, if we had been able to build them. They would serve
as national officers. There was not national staff, because there was
no other States. As it later come out, as Mr. Appell will bring out,
Mississippi, but to no avail.
Mr. Appell. All right, now did Mr. Swenson have assistant orga-
nizers working mider him ?
Mr. Young. Sir, if he did, I did not know who they were. He had
Houston. He had Houston P. Morris, as I explained before. That
was the grand kleagle, and Mr. Swenson was the National Kleagle.
Mr. Appell. Well, that is
Mr. Young. That is all I can tell you about that.
Mr. Appell. Now on a State level did they have another office of
grand chaplain ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. And who fulfilled the office of the grand chaplain ?
Mr. Young. Jack D. Young. That was the only executive function
he had, was as chaplain. He knew nothing of the State organizational
work and he had nothing to do with it; he was merely a chaplain at
the national meetings.
Mr. Appell. Well, due to the fact, Mr. Young, that I know that Mr.
Jack Young is your brother
Mr. Young. That is right.
Mr. Appell. — I would like to ask you, to your knowledge, whether
Jack Young is presently affiliated with any Klan organization to
the best of your knowledge ?
Mr. Young. No, sir. When I stepped down, my brother and Mr.
Swenson and Mr. Morris stepped down. When I stepped down, they
quit their activities.
Mr. Appell. Well, now, the committee's investigation establishes
that Mr. Houston P. Morris continued Klan affiliations.
Mr. Young. Sir, I know nothing of that. It is only hearsay on my
part. I heard that he went forward. I coaild not say. I cannot swear
if he did.
Mr. Appell. Yes, but you just said that Mr. Morris, like your
brother, ceased his Klan activities.
Mr. Young. They told me they were, but now I know beyond a
shadow of a doubt that my brother and Mr. Swenson did, as far as I
am concerned, in the State of Louisiana.
3870 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Now what Mr. Morris did, I cannot say.
Mr. Appell. Now towards the end of 1963, would you say that the
Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan had reached its peak strength
as far as you are concerned ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir; it had reached its peak strength and its ex-
tinction as far as I am concerned. I tried to hold it.
Mr. Appell. Now prior to December of 1963 and its reaching its
peak strength, did Mr. Swenson or any organizer of the Original
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan go across the river into Mississippi and
organize Klans into the Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Young. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Appell. Can you tell this committee approximately how many
Mississippi ans were naturalized into the Original Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan?
Mr. Young. Sir, I could not tell you. I might give you a guess,
my guess, but I could not state any number.
Mr. Appell. All right, sir, would you
Mr. Young. Not knowing, I don't know.
Mr. Appell. Would you give us your guess on the basis of the office
that you held ?
Mr. Young. I would say that he had started maybe one or two
lodges.
Mr. Appell. He started
Mr. Weltner. Wliat was the answer ?
Mr. Young. Or three, maybe. I don't know.
Mr. Appell. Started one or two lodges.
Mr. Weltner. One or two Klavems ?
Mr. Young. That is about right ; yes.
Mr. Appell. Would you say that the membership that he had re-
cruited was as high as 300 ?
Mr. Young. I would not think so. I would make it around 150,
maybe, a start.
Mr. Appell. I am talking about, now, December 1963, when you were
at your peak ?
Mr. Young. No ; I would not say he had that many.
Mr. Appell. All right, sir. Now when you were at your peak in
December 1963, about how many Klaverns were there in Mississippi ?
Mr. Young. I would say there was about three finished, maybe four
or five started. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Appell. So that either in a chartered stage or in a preliminary
stage, there were approximately nine Klaverns ?
Mr. Young. I would say eight or nine, probably.
Mr. Appell. Eight or nine. Now with the creation of Klavems in
the State of Mississippi, did the Original Knights create a Realm of
Mississippi ?
Mr. Young. Well, they are not supposed to create a realm in the
working of the old Original until they have as many as five completed
units. But we did appoint a temporary Dragon of the realm.
Mr. Appell. All right, sir.
Now let me ask you, under the Constitution and bylaws of the Orig-
inal Knights, how many members had to be naturalized before a
Klavern could officially receive a charter ?
ACTIVmES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3871
Mr. Young. Fifty.
Mr. Appell. Fifty. Were exceptions made to that ?
Mr. Young. In some cases.
Mr. Appell. All right, sir. Now who did you appoint as the tempo-
rary Grand Dragon for the Realm of Mississippi ?
Mr. Young, He was appointed by Brother Swenson. It was Doug-
las Byrd.
Mr. Appell. Douglas Byrd. Now did Mr. Swenson or yourself ap-
point any other realm officers in Mississippi ?
Mr. Young. Not that I know of. Now Mr. Swenson may. He was
organizer. Now until the realm is established, my office would not
interfere as an Imperial Dragon. I would not go into anything, or
try to deal — ^to delve into anything. My office was to see that it was
carried out executively, not organizatioii^l work. I have no idea of the
organizational work at all, and that is an organizational stage, to
create offices as it grows.
Now whether Brother Byrd or Mr. Byrd had helpers or assistants,
I have no knowledge. In fact, I would not have known the names, if he
had them. That would have been realm business.
Mr. Appell. Well, now let me bring this up to you in this record,
because many things we repeat on this record, although we discussed
them yesterday, we do it for the benefit of the committee.
Mr. Young. Yes, sir. That is right.
Mr. Appell. According to the cormnittee's investigation, on Decem-
ber 28, 1963, you as the Imperial Dragon of the Original Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan revoked the conrniission of Edward Lenox
McDaniel.
Mr. Young. I heard that. You told me that yesterday.
Mr. Appell. And banished him from your organization, the Origi-
nal Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. The notice which you issued
charged McDaniel with being guilty of slandering and threatening
the heads or leaders of the Klan, and also of committing treason by
exciting and recommending a revolt against the principles of the old
Original rules and regulations.
Mr. Young. That is right, sir.
Mr. Appell. Could you revoke the commission of a man who did
not hold an office ?
Mr. Young. Sir, may I explain that?
Mr. Appell. Please do, sir.
Mr. Young. As an Imperial Dragon, I sat over it, supposed to sit
over the national board. In other words, you names the State officers
that sit with me, that I had appointed. This was brought to me, sir. I
don't go out and know this.
The accusation was brought against these two men, and I sit like the
chairman of your committee. I listen to the accusations brought
before me, and that I am asked for banishment procedures. I sign
the letters.
Mr. Appell. All right. Now other than from any independent
knowledge
Mr. Young. But knowing this McDaniel, I still don't know him.
Mr. Appell. Do you remember signing the order to which I referred
and which was dated December 28, 1963 ?
3872 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Young. The banishment ?
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Young. I signed that order ; yes.
Mr. Appell. All right, did you also sign one for Douglas Byrd ?
Mr. Young. I just got through stating that those two men there
was brought before me.
Mr. Appell. How were they brought before you ? Physically ?
Mr. Young. No, sir ; in conversation, merely.
Mr. Appell. All right, sir. Now in December 1963
Mr. Young. In fact, let me say this. I cannot swear, as you asked
me at the committee meeting yesterday, that they were even Klansmen,
because I never seen them take the oath. But I super — supposed they
were, going with the three officers that I knew to be with them, but
as I took an oath today to tell you the truth, sir, I could not get on any
stand in God's world and tell you they were Ku Klux Klansmen. I
could not.
Mr. Appell. Well, let's see if we can develop that a little bit, Mr.
Young.
Mr. Young. I told you the same thing yesterday, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. In December 1963 or prior thereto, there had been great
dissension within the Original Knights, relating to charges on the part
of some group of the membership against certain officers, with respect
to the irregularity of funds. Is this a fact, sir ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir ; that was a fact. It was brought to my atten-
tion, and that is the reason why I taken over and tried to straighten
that out.
Mr. Appell. All right, sir.
Mr. Young. But it is still to no avail. There was a power purge.
Somebody wanted more power.
Mr. Appell. All right.
Mr. Young. They carried it on through, and it finally came to a
breakdown.
Mr. Appell. All right. Now it came to a breakdown.
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Now what were the charges being leveled by this dis-
senting faction against the constituted leadership of the Original
Knights?
Mr. Young. Sir, it is very comical. One of the charges, the main
charge, that caused all the trouble — and as far as I am concerned, it
should not have been ; if I had anything to do with it, it never would
have been — was the manufacture of robes.
Mr. Appell. Would you explain that ?
Mr. Young. There is no explaining to it. Some people wanted to
take over the manufacturing of the robes, and one man had it, and
that was it. That is the only thing I can tell you. Power purge.
Mr. Appell, Now, who was the man that had the jurisdiction of
the manufacturing of the robes ?
Mr. Young. Everyone in the United States knows that, and also
your investigators. Mr. Swenson.
Mr. Appell. Well, may we go off the record a second ?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Weltner. Back on the record.
ACTIVmES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3873
Mr. Appell. Mr. Young, did Mr, J. D. Swenson have what we shall
call the robe concession ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir ; he did.
Mr. Appell. He purchased the material ; he had the robes manu-
factured
Mr. Young. He had them so delivered, I imagine.
Then he sold them to the membership.
Well, now how he did that, Mr. Appell, I can only answer this. He
did have the concession; that he got the money, I am sure he did.
How he distributed the money, or how he got it, I can't truthfully tell,
because I don't know. That was none of my business to start with.
That was not under my jurisdiction. I was told it was not under my
jurisdiction. Therefore, I did not delve into it.
Mr. Appell. Who told you it was not under your jurisdiction?
Mr. Young. The Imperial Wizard and that gave him the concession.
He was a grand officer before I ever became a member, back this time.
Mr. Appell. Were all the charges leveled against J. D. Swenson, or
were some of the charges leveled against you ?
Mr. Young. They were leveled against me also, because I took up for
Mr. Swenson.
Mr. Appell. Did this dissenting faction within the Original Knights
also make charges against you with respect to the handling of finances?
Mr. Young. That, sir, was the minor. The major that was brought
to my knowledge, was that I would not act as a real leader. Now,
whether it was others wanting my position or not, I do not know, but
they said that I was an incompetent leader and that I would not let
them do things they wanted to do. I don't know what they were talk-
ing about.
Mr. Weltner. Well, let's inquire, Mr. Appell, as to just what the
dissenting group felt would be the proper activities of leadership in
this area.
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir ; did you hear the question of the chairman ?
Mr. Young. Percentage?
Mr. Appell. No ; in what manner did the dissenting faction believe
that the office of the Imperial Dragon should be handled, and how
should their proper leadership be carried forward ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I would say at that time around 30 percent. Now
these different Klavems had been visited by these officials.
Mr. Appell. Now, when you are talking about "these officials" you
are talking about the dissenting officials?
Mr. Young. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Young. And they did not withdraw at that time, but they held
their funds. In other words, the funds that they were supposed to
send in. Then I had to travel and try to explain to them that we could
not go, unless we remained together. I did. I tried to hold it together.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Young, what did the dissenting group feel was
the proper program ? WTiat kind of activities did they want you to
lead them into ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I don't know. I will decide, and show you one
incident that might suffice. They wanted to bum crosses .at the polls
at the election in 1963, and I put out specific orders that was to be
3874 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
mled out because I did not believe in intimidation of the voters. I
might believe in segregation, sir, strongly, because I was raised that
way. But I believe in equal facilities, or equal rights, but separate
facilities. I would no more intimidate anybody to keep from voting
and I put that, pulled that order down, and that was one of the
biggest arguments.
Mr. Weltner. Did you consider the act of burning the cross in and
of itself to be an intimidation ?
Mr. Young. I did. I figures that there was some people might see
those crosses and fail to go to vote.
Mr. Wei/tner. Wliat people specifically ?
Mr. Young. I don't know. Anybody.
Mr. Weltner. Was that — was your ban on cross-burning at the
polls the only gromid for quarrel over your leadership ?
Mr. Young. Sir, as far as I am concerned, that was the only major
quarrel that I had in my cabinet. Now there was other rumors. I
can't say what they were; I don't know. But I think that there was
some in my cabinet that wished to take over.
You know, when you are trying to organize anything, they don't
care who does it, or whose expense it costs to do it, but after you g&t
something almost on its feet, there is people that want to take over.
iSir, that is natural. And that is exactly what happened in this
incident.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Young, is it your feeling that some of your
people felt you were not active enough in Klan activities ?
Mr. Young. That probably might have been it.
Mr. Weltner. Well, was lihere any ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I am a railroad man. I have to make a living.
I had no money and no finances behind me.
Mr. Weltner. I mean, was that the quarrel with you, that you were
not enough of an activist in Klan matters ?
Mr. Young. That would have been one of them ; yes.
Mr. Weltner. And one of the examples of this was your ban on
cross-burning at the polls in the election of 1963 ?
Mr. Young. That is it.
Mr. Weltner. Was there any other instance where they claimed
you lacked leadership, failed to let them act?
Mr. Young. No, sir ; there was not, that I know of. I tried to be
a good leader and hold it equally right, within righteousness.
Mr. Appell. Who were the leaders in this faction against you ?
Mr. Young. Sir, this was the Murry Martin and Mr. Wilder.
Mr. Appell. What other officers participated in this faction?
Mr. Young. That I would not know.
Mr. Appell. Did Kobert Fuller?
Mr. Young. I can't say that he did. I have no proof that he did.
Within my common knowledge, I believe that he did.
Mr. Appell. You believe that he did ?
Mr. Young. I believe that he did, but that is all.
Mr. Appell. Now at the time this faction was brewing, what do
you estimate to be the membership of the Original Knights in
Louisiana?
Mr. Young. At that time the trouble started, and at the time that
it dropped ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE IT.S. 3875
Mr. Appell. Yes.
Mr. Young. I would say around 2 — maybe 2,300. Maybe 2,000 or
2,300.
Mr. Appell. And this included Louisiana and Mississippi?
Mr. Young. That included everything I had anything to do with,
sir.
Mr. Appell. Now how many Klaverns would this represent?
Mr. Young. I would say from 40 to 50, possibly.
Mr. Appell. Forty to fifty including the Klaverns that were in
Mississippi ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir. But they dropped out way before the final
drop fell. Mississippi had dissensions at the first part of the end of
1963, and they had theirs, they may have reorganized.
Mr. Appell. Now we are talking about December 1963.
Mr. Young. Yes, sir; that was the whole total, around 40 to 50
Klaverns, as far as I know.
Mr. Appell. Now these 40 to 50 Klaverns— these chartered Klaverns,
does that include a number of Klaverns that were in the organizational
stage ?
Mr. Young. That was a few still in the organizational stage, and
few that was already chartered.
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir. Now in order to break down this dissension,
did you travel around and visit the leadership in the respective areas of
Louisiana and Mississippi in order to try to keep this organization
together ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I traveled in Louisiana.
Mr. Appell. Did you make
Mr. Young. I went to somewhere below Baton Rouge, in an area,
and I went to Monroe and I went to a couple more places, specifically.
And I would go in in my statute of office, I did not deal and delve
around. I went in, and I had already known, my cabinet had brought
to me what dissensions had brought up.
I had tried to explain to them knowledge that I had of what should
be done, what should not be done, and tried to correct the accusations
made against me and tried to show them that I was a good leader.
In other words, I tried. And then I left. I did not stay.
Mr. Appell. At the time of the dissension with the Mississippi
group, did you go over and confer with Douglas Byrd and McDanieL
then?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir. I made one trip.
Mr. Appell. And Douglas
Mr. Young. Who the other men were, I don't know. Sir, I went to
Douglas Byrd. I never met him. I sat there, and these boys in the
State, I could not tell you who they were. They were hooded, sir.
Mr. Weltner. They were what?
Mr. Young. They were hooded.
Mr. Weltner. Hooded ?
Mr. Young. Hooded ; yes, sir. In that organization, nobody knows
who the other man is, unless you are right close, like a cabinet.
Mr. Weltner. Well, when you would go to theirs
Mr. Young. It could have been you, sir, sitting next to me. I never
would have known. It could have been Mr. Hitz. I wouldn't have
known it.
3876 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Weltner. But when you go to Monroe and Baton Eouge ?
Mr. Young. Those meetings were hooded.
Mr. Weltner. Well, you knew who the cyclops of those Klavems
were though ; did you not ?
Mr. Young. No, Mr. Fuller — not Mr. Fuller. Yes. I believe at that
time Mr. Fuller had arranged the meeting for me.
Mr. Weltner. So you went into a hooded meeting, and the whole
assemblage was hooded ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Weltner. And you did not know the identity of anybody in that
room ?
Mr. Young. I could not tell the identity.
Mr. Weltner. That is your testimony, that on each of these visits
you made in the State of Louisiana specifically, when you were trying
to put down dissension, that Mr. Fuller arranged the time and place
for the meeting and that you
Mr. Young. No; not for both of them. Mr. Fuller arranged for
one of them, and the one below Baton Eouge, Mr. Morris arranged
for me.
Mr. Weltner. All right, sir, the meetings were arranged for you.
By someone else. And you went in, and the entire discussion was be-
tween you and a ^roup of hooded men.
Mr. Young. Sir, I spoke to the assembly. I did not speak to any-
body, and my office, the imperial office, I was supposed to be an im-
perial officer.
Mr. Weltner. All right, sir. Now, do you know who the cyclops of
the Baton Rouge Klavern was at the time you went there?
Mr. Young. No, sir ; I don't have that on record. No, sir.
Mr. Weltner. Do you know the name of any person who was a
member of the Baton Rouge Klavern?
Mr. Young. No.
Mr. Weltner. Well, does that hold true for Monroe, Louisiana,
also?
Mr. Young. No, I did know Monroe at one time. It was Irving
Bayles.
Mr. Weltner. Who ?
Mr. Young. Irving Bayles.
Mr. Weltner. Did you ever go to Bogalusa, Louisiana ?
Mr. Young. No.
Mr. Weltner. How many Klavems did you visit during this time,
Mr. Young?
Mr. Young. It was not the Klaverns that I visited. It was just
the meeting place.
Mr. Weltner. How many different assemblages of local men ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I could not say. I would imagine it would be, I
would say, three or four different Klaverns there at the assemblage.
Mr. Weltner. How many assemblies did you address during this
period of time ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I expect I went to five or six meetings at that
time.
Mr. Weltner. Five or six meetings ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3877
Mr. Weltner. All right, proceed.
One moment.
Mr. Buchanan. In each case, the assemblage was hooded, and you
could not identify the persons ?
Mr. Young. Let's put it this way. Some of them in the back may
not have been hooded. I did not know them. In my station, sir,
I did not go around and start shaking hands. I was not campaigning
for election.
Mr. Weltner. All right.
Mr. Appell. But at this time, you were campaigning to keep to-
gether an organization of which you were the Imperial Dragon?
Mr. Young. Sir, listen. Let me put it this way. There had been
so many dissensions and so much disorder that I tried to bring right
and order to my organization. But still at the same time, I was
disheartened and sick that they had said what they did about me.
And if an organization don't want a man to start with, and are hold-
ing back their dues and things like that, until thej^ get it straightened
out, and it does not look like they would ever get it straightened out,
sir, my heart was not in it any longer.
Mr. Appell. All right, now before this dissension, did you ever go
around and meet with EC's from the various Klavems to discuss the
Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan business ?
Mr. Young. I visited several Klavems.
Mr. Appell. I am not talking about Klaverns. I am talking about
the get-together of the exalted cyclops and other officers in a little
confab.
Mr. Young. No; that was held under me. That was held by the
Grand Giant's meetings.
Mr. Appell. You mean — didn't you ever attend them ?
Mr. Young. No, honestly, I did not.
Let me put it this way. I again w^as very busy at the first few months
that I became Imperial Dragon ; then all this dissension started. I was
trying to troubleshoot. You would not understand it, sir. I have no
way of telling you,
Mr. Appell. Well, the thing that I asked, it is a procedure of the
Original Knights that in every meeting, all persons should be hooded?
Mr. Young. Sir, that was a secret organization. I gave you the
names I was associated with and the ones that I knew — or was pretty
sure of being Klansmen. Now on the down level of the organization,
I had nothing to do with it, nor did I ask names, or did I have a
record of names ; no, sir. And I could not name you anybody now as a
Klansman, and it would not do you any good if I named anybody
now and said they was a Klansman, because I don't know.
The membership, sir, that I knew, I did not know if they were
Klansmen or not.
Mr. Appell. When you say that you don't know whether a man is a
Klansman, is it based upon whether or not you were present when he
took his oath ?
Mr. Young. It is based on me knowing myself whether he is a
Klansman or not.
Mr. Appell. What constitutes your knowing he was a Klansman ?
Mr. Young. Being there and seeing him take the oath.
59-222 O— 67— pt.
3878 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLTJX KLAN IN THE TJ.S.
Mr. Appell. That is what I asked. So, in other words, we ask
you about an individual. Even though he might have been an EC of a
Klavern, you would not identify him as a person you knew to be a
Klansman except if you had been there when he came in originally and
took an oath.
Mr. Young. Sir, I did not say that. I said there is lots of people
that I know I couldn't identify as a Klansman, but I did not go
around, I did not know the names of these men that were EC's of
these Klaverns and I still don't know.
Mr. Appelx,. You did not know
Mr. Young. You asked me a few names. I told you the names that
I knew.
Mr. Appell. You tell this committee under oath that you did not
know the name of an EC
Mr. Young. Of every EC in those Klaverns, no, sir, I do not.
Mr. Appell. All right. You tell this committee under oath that
you do not, that you did not know the name of one EC in any Klavern
of the Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Young. I just got through telling you two EC's, Irving Bayles
and Buddy Gibbs, sir.
Mr. Appell. You identified
Mr. Young. I did not say that I did not know any, because I gave
you two names.
Mr. Appell. Well, you identified Buddy Gibbs as the Grand Dragon.
Mr. Young. No, sir. You had better look back on that. Buddy
Gibbs was the EC of the Bossier Klan.
Mr. Appell. You are right.
Mr. Young. Yes, sir, I think I am right.
Mr. Weltner. Suspend please for a moment. We want to confer
about the time.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Weltner. The committee will resume.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Young, what ciin you tell the committee about
Mr. Swenson's robe concession ?
Mr. Young. Sir, there is very little I can tell vou about the con-
cession. He was given a concession to make the robes by the Imperial
Wizard. I had instructions to never invoke that or revoke that.
And that the robes cost $10. Now what the robes cost for him to make,
I do not know ; if he paid a percentage to people to deliver, I don't
know, because I know he must have had deliveries made ; and whether
he sold the robes to everyone that came into the organization, I can-
not say that.
The only thing I can tell you, Mr. Appell, honestly, he had the
concession, and he charged $10 a robe. Now what Mr. Swenson
made of that, which I know that is what you would like to know,
I can't tell you, sir.
Mr. Appell. You do not know where
Mr. Young. I did not even go into it to find out what the material
cost or the thread cost or the labor. I don't know. Now what profit
he made, I still don't know.
Mr. Appell. Do you know who manufactured the robes for him?
Mr. Young. Sir, I don't.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3879
Mr. Appell. Did you know where he bought his material ?
Mr. Young. Sir ? No, sir ; I never asked him.
Mr. Appell. Now you said that the dues were a dollar. What
division
Mr. Young. They were a dollar, and, or I imagine, some Klaverns
charged more. I don't know. They could have.
Mr. Appell. The minimum was a dollar ?
Mr. Young. Was a dollar.
Mr. Appell. How much of the dollar went to your units outside
the Klaverns ?
Mr. Young. I don't believe any of that dollar went to the units
outside the Klavern.
Mr. Appell. Did it
Mr. Young. There was a klectokon
Mr. Appell. Did the realm get any of the dollar dues ?
Mr. Young. Not of the dues. I know what you mean, now. The
klectokons were $10. The organizers, the ones that done the organi-
zational work, theirs was $7.
Mr. Appell. He got S7 2
Mr. Young. Yes, sir. I think there was a dollar proportioned to
the Grand Dragon of the State. The $2 went into the State level, to
defray the State officers. In other words, it was a nonprofit organiza-
tion at the time I straightened it out. What we merely wanted was
enough money to defray the expenses of the State officers when they
traveled.
Mr. Appell. Now how about of the dues collected, did any portion
of the monthly dues go to the State ? From the Klaverns ?
Mr. Young. No, sir. There was 10 cents made for an imperial tax.
Mr. Weltner. 10 cents out of $1 monthly dues ?
Mr. Young. No, sir, just 10 cents a man.
Mr. Weltner. 10 cents in addition to the dues.
Mr. Young. Yes.
Mr. Weltner. 10 cents per member per month ?
Mr. Young. That is right.
Mr. Weltner. Was that the only regular revenues ?
Mr. Young. That is the only revenue the imperial officers got.
Mr. Weltner. 10 cents a member per month ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Weltner. And no part of the monthly dues inured to the State,
to the national officers ?
Mr. Young. No, sir ; there is only $2 put into the national treasury.
That was to take care of the State officers.
Mr. Weltner. And that was from klectokon ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Weltner. Which is the initial membership fee ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Weltner. Yes, sir. Thank you.
Mr. Appell?
Mr. Appell. Now, I understood you to say yesterday that a tenth,
that 10 cents also went to the State organization. Ten cents to the
State, and ten cents to the imperial.
Mr. Young. Maybe you misunderstood, Mr. Appell. The State
organization got $2 of the klectokon, sir.
3880 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. I am talking of the dues, sir.
Mr. Young. No, we did not; I don't know where you get that 10
cents. The 10 cents was in addition to the Klavern dues, sir.
Mr. Appell. All right. Now how often did the Klavern turn over
the per capita, this assessment to the imperial office ?
Mr. Young. To the State office ?
Mr. Appell. To — I thought you said
Mr. Young. Once a month.
Mr. Appell. Once a month.
Mr. Young. Yes.
Mr. Appell. Was this transmitted on a form which showed the
number of membere of Klavern and
Mr. Young. Sir, I am going to have to tell you that I wish not, and
I wish to invoke the fifth amendment, because that is leading right
back to the question, who was the national secretary. In other words,
if I tell you now it was done, then it is going to lead back to why I
invoked that fifth amendment.
Mr. Weltner. The witness does not have to explain why he invokes
it, unless he desires.
Mr. Young. Sir, I am sorry. I was trying to do it, but I want to
invoke it.
Mr, Weltner. This is for your protection, sir, and all you need do
is decline to answer and on that ground.
Mr. Young. I don't want to be disagreeable, but some things I have
to invoke the fifth amendment on.
Mr, Weltner, That is your constitutional privilege.
Mr. Young. Thank you.
Mr. Weltner. And this committee is certainly going to protect that.
Mr. Young. That part of it I wish to let die.
Mr. Appell. Were you familiar with any of the Klaverns in the
Bogalusa area?
Mr. Young. No, sir ; I was not. I was up in the northwest part of
the State and I never go to their meetings there, sir.
Mr. Appell. You never had a State klonvokation or State
Mr. Young. Sir, I told you I went down there that one time in the
Baton Rouge area to hold this organization together. That was when
he went to whatever you want to call it.
Mr. Appell. Do you know the identity of any members of the Orig-
inal Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in the Bogalusa area ?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. None?
Mr. Young. That I know of.
Mr. Appell, Do you know the identity of any members or any per-
son who was a member of the Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan
in the Shreveport area, Louisiana ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Who do you know ?
Mr, Young. Swenson. And my brother.
Mr. Appell. And who else ?
Mr. Young. I can't go any further, sir.
Mr, Appell. Sir?
Mr. Young. I want the fifth amendment on that; I cannot go any
further on that, sir. I wish not to discuss it.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3881
I have tried to-
Mr. Appell. Did you know any original members of the Original
Knights of the Klu Klux Klan in the Monroe area ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Who did you know ?
Mr. Young. Irving Bayles.
Mr. Appell. Who else ?
Mr. Young. Robert Fuller.
Mr. Appell. Who else?
Mr. Young. That is it.
Mr. Appell. Houston Morris in that area ?
Mr. Young. Well, he lives in Monroe now, but he was in the Baton
Rouge area when he was with me.
Mr. Appell. In addition to those that you named, what other mem-
bers of the Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan did you know in
the Monroe, Louisiana, area ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I want to invoke the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Appell. All right. What members of the Original Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan did you know in the Baton Rouge area of
Louisiana ?
Mr. Young. Houston P. Morris.
Mr. Appell. Wliat other members of the Original Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan did you know then in the Monroe area, sir ?
Mr. Young. I just named them for you.
Mr. Appell. I said what other persons ?
Mr. Young. I invoked the same fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Appell. What members of the Original Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan did you know in the Winnsboro, Louisiana, area, of the
Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Young. Mr. Murry H. Martin.
Mr. Appell. What other members of the -Original Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan did you know in the Winnsboro, Louisiana, area?
Mr. Young. That is it, sir.
Mr. Appell. What members of the Original Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan did you know in the Benham Springs area of Louisiana ?
Mr. Young. None that I know of. Denhajn Springs, I don't even
know where Denham Springs is.
Mr. Appell. What members of the Original Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan did you know in Ouachita Parish, Louisiana ?
Mr. Young. I knew one, but I can't think of that name, honestly.
Mr. Appell. Wliat members of the Ku Klux Klan did you know
in Washington Parish area of Louisiana ?
Mr. Young. None.
Mr. Appell. Did you know Russell Magee ?
Mr. Young. You brought up that name before, sir, and I don't
remember that name.
Mr. Appell. Principal of Thomas High School ?
Mr. Young. That is a name I don't remember.
Mr. Appell. What members of the Original Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan did you know in the Bogalusa area of Louisiana ?
Mr. Young. That I told you ; none.
3882 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr, AppEii.. You knew none?
Mr. Young. None.
Mr. Appell. Other than Byrd and McDaniel, what members of the
Original Knights
Mr, Young, That is the extent of Mississippi, to my knowledge.
Mr. Appell. Let me finish the question, sir. What other members
of the Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan did you know in the
State of Mississippi ?
Mr. Young. I said, sir, that was it. To my knowledge.
Mr. Appell. In early 1954
Mr. Weltner. 54 ?
Mr. Appell. — 64, did you appoint Henry Irving Bayles as the Act-
ing Grand Dragon of the Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. As a result of the friction, did the organization known
as the Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan for all practical pur-
poses cease to exist ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir, as far as to my knowledge.
Mr. Appell. To your knowledge, was there an organization to re-
place it known as the Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of Lou-
isiana ?
Mr. Young. I know nothing of that organization.
Mr. Appell. Do you know that such an organization was created,
from hearsay or any other knowledge ?
Mr. Young. No sir, I don't know that it was created ; no.
Mr. Appell. I say, from hearsay or any other knowledge ?
Mr. Young. I still say I don't know.
Mr. Appell. Had you heard that there was ?
Mr. Young. Yes, I had heard there was.
Mr. Appell. Do you have any knowledge of an organization known
as Ark-La-Tex ?
Mr. Young. No, sir. I really don't.
Mr. Appell. Did you ever hear of an organization known as Ark-
La-Tex?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. I noticed that about a mile from your home in a field,
there is a sign that says "Ark-La-Tex Christian Encampment."
Mr. Young, Sir, I don't know, I have tried to find out who that
is, I don't know whether it is in NAACP or the Christian Endeavor
Society or Deacons for Defense, I don't know,
Mr, Appell. You do not know anything about it ?
Mr, Young, I do not know. But I imagine it is one of those, sir,
Mr, Weltner. Counsel, we have to conclude very shortly now, or
suspend, one or the other.
Mr. HiTz. Whenever you are ready, you tell us. I have some ques-
tions I wanted to ask, and then Mr. Appell wants to come back to some-
thing he is looking up.
Mr. Weltner. One moment, please. We will have to take a recess
until 2 :15, at which time the committee will resume, unless the floor
action requires to the contrary, in which event, we will postpone re-
sumption of the sitting of this committee until a time later in the
afternoon.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3883
Mr. Appell. All right, sir.
Mr. Weltner. The committee will be in recess.
(Subcommittee members present: Representatives Weltner and
Buchanan.)
(Whereupon, at 1:40 p.m. the subcommittee recessed to reconvene
at 2:15 p.m.)
(The subcommittee reconvened at 5:30 p.m., Hon. Charles L.
Weltner, chairman of the subcommittee, presiding.)
(Subcommittee members present: Representatives Weltner and
Buchanan.)
Mr. Weltner. The subcommittee will come to order.
Proceed.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Young, I show you a document called the Klwn
Ledger, published by the Original Ku Klux Klan of Louisiana. Can
you tell me who is responsible for publishing that?
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Young. The first thing I see there is : "This being so, can you
really wonder at the existence of the Old Original Ku Klux Klan of
Louisiana."
No, sir. I did not have anything to do with that, and don't know
anything that did.
(Document marked "Royal Young Exhibit No. 2" and retained in
committee files.)
Mr. Appell, Did the Original Knights at the time that you were
the Imperial Dragon have a publication ?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. During the time that you were the Imperial Dragon,
did the State organization maintain a bank account ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I don't wish to discuss that. We will have to get
back to the same discussion we had before, Mr. Appell.
Mr. Weltner. The witness will have to answer the question or claim
the constitutional privilege.
Mr. Young. Well, I claim the fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Weltner. Very well.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Young, are you acquainted with an organization
known as the American Royal Rangers ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Would you tell the committee what is your connection
with the American Royal Rangers ?
Mr. Young. May I ask one question ?
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Young. Mr. Appell, what has the American Royal Rangers to
do with this investigation or with the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Appell. Would you please answer the question, sir?
Mr. Young. Well, sir, I would like to know why I am being asked
this question.
Mr. Weltner. The witness will be advised that he must either
answer the question or claim the constitutional privilege.
Mr. Young. Well, I will claim that privilege right now.
Mr. Weltner. You decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
3884 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. You decline to answer any questions with respect to
the American Royal Rangers ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Is the American Royal Rangers an organization which
has an affiliation with any other group outside the State of Louisiana ?
Mr. Young. I will answer your question one there truthfully. It
has not any affiliation with any organization, either in Louisiana or
any other State in the Union.
Mr. Appell. Does this organization engage in armed exercises or
guerrilla type of maneuyers?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. Do its members engage in any type of warfare in which
there is use of rifles and other weapons for any purpose, other than
shooting game?
Mr. Young. No, sir; I don't know of any other purpose.
Mr. Appell. I say, does it do that ?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. It does not. Do you head this organization known as
the American Royal Rangers?
Mr. Young. Sir, I invoke the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Hitz ?
Mr. Hitz. Do you belong to the American Rifle Association ?
Mr. Young. National Rifle Association?
Mr. Hitz. National Rifle Association ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. That is the button there, isn't it, the gold button ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Do you know a man named Howard Lee?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Have you ever had any dealings with Howard Lee?
Mr. Young. Not to my knowledge ; no, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Howard Lee has held a permit from the Internal Revenue
Service to sell guns as a dealer under the Federal Firearms Act.
Mr. Young. I have no knowledge of that.
Mr. Hitz. In Louisiana.
Mr. Young. I have no knowledge of that ; no, sir.
You are telling me something I don't know.
Mr. Hitz. And for failure to keep the proper records required by
the Federal act, he was arrested, charged with that violation, and has
pleaded guilty to it.
Mr. Young. That still does not concern me, sir.
Mr. Hitz. One of his offenses was to sell a large quantity of Italian
and other military rifles, with large quantities of ammunition, to
people in Louisiana. Are you aware of those activities in Louisiana,
or anywhere else?
Mr. Young. No, sir ; that is the first I have heard of it.
Mr. Hitz. Have you ever had occasion to obtain for yourself or for
any members of the American Royal Ran2:ers any rifles ?
Mr. Young. No, sir; I belong to the National Rifle Association. I
have got a rifle of mine which the Government has given me a bill of
sale for, and I also have got a 45. I have a bill of sale and I think that
the United States Government has a copy of the contract. I am sure
ACTIVmES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3885
they do, because I have got a copy of it, too. But I did not buy it for
any American Royal Rangers, or anybody else. I bought it for Royal
Young.
Mr. HiTz. Royal Young?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Yes. Let's see. Now that organization has, as its middle
name, your first name, does it not, or at least a name just like it?
Mr. Young. It is similar, but it is not my name.
Mr. HiTz. It isn't?
Mr. Young. No. Royal is my name, but I am not the owner of any
organization, if that is what you are trying to say ; no, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Isn't — I didn't say that. I did not say — I did not try to
say that. I just noted the coincidence.
This Klan oath, concerning which you declined to answer whether
or not you took the oath, has a certain provision, nevertheless, in it,
that I want to invite your attention to in order to ask you another
question.
One of the several Klan oaths is called the oath of secrecy, which in
most solemn fashion requires the person taking the oath to swear, in
effect, that he will divulge no secrets of the Klan organizations at all,
and with no exception whatsoever — not even for treason, rape, or
murder. That is in the secrecy oath itself.
Now I have in mind that you have taken the fifth amendment in
respect to whether or not you swore to that. But regardless of your
position in that regard, I want to ask you whether your answers to
questions today — whether it be "I don't know somebody" or "I don't
recall" or taking the fifth amendment — are in any fashion whatever
related to or dependent upon or influenced by any oath of secrecy that
you may have taken ?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. In other words, you are answering your questions, giving
the words with their ordinary meaning, that you have used today, and
you don't mean to in any fashion, and you have not, failed to answer
or given what answer you did give in the light of an oath of any sort
to any other organization or entity ?
Mr. Young. Sir, the answers I gave to you today was answers
straight from what I knew. No oath has anything to do with the an-
swers I gave today.
Mr. HiTz. Have you ever dealt indirectly with a gun dealer in Bo-
galusa, looking toward, even if not accomplishing, the purchase of
any firearms or any sort ?
Mr. Young. No, sir; I have never dealt with any firearms dealer
except the United States Government when I purchased my rifle and
45. That is the only time.
Mr. HiTz. Did you charter, or have anything to do with the actual
chartering of, any Klaverns in the Original Knights when you were
a member of the Original Knights ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir ; I signed charters.
Mr. HiTz. Was that in your capacity as Imperial Dragon ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Was that one of the functions of that office ?
Mr. Young. That was one of the functions.
3886 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. HiTZ. What form would the charter take? What did it look
like ? What did it say ? Who did it read to ?
Mr. Young. It just read to the number of the Klavem. That is all.
Mr. HiTz. A member of the Klavem ?
Mr. Young. A number of the Klavem.
Mr. HiTz. To a number?
Mr. Young. That is all.
Mr. HiTz. Well, to whom was it addressed ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I want to invoke that fifth amendment again,
please, sir.
Mr. HiTz. I did not ask for a name. I merely asked for the fashion
in which
Mr. Young. I still would rather not discuss that, Mr. Hitz.
Mr. Weltner. Well, you may invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Young. I invoke the fifth amendment, sir, because that is some-
thing I did. I know.
Mr. Weltner. You don't have to explain it if you invoked it, but
you can't state, "I would rather not answer."
Mr. Young. Well, I don't mean that ; honestly I don't.
Mr. Weltner. You must claim the constitutional privilege, or you
must answer the question.
Mr. Young. I want to claim my constitutional privilege; yes, sir.
Mr. Weltner. Very well, that is quite clear.
Mr. Hitz. Now the constitutional privilege that you seek here to
claim is the privilege against self-incrimination ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Did the charter state on it the names of the persons who
were being chartered ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I have already invoked the fifth amendment. I
asked for that protection.
Mr. Hitz. I see. And you intend to ask that protection on all ques-
tions relating to
Mr. Young. Relating to the charter ; yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. To the form of the charter ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Even though I am not asking for any names ?
Mr. Young. I want that fifth amendment relating to the charter,
sir. The only answer I give, I said I signed the charter.
Mr. Hitz. You named certain persons as Klansmen here without
any claim of privilege, of course, and without any apparent hesitation.
I believe perhaps as many or perhaps twice as many positions whose
occupants you were asked about, you refused to name. I am going to
ask you about one or two. Let me ask you this : You named a man
named Bayles, did you not?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. And in what capacity did you, or what office did he hold
.intheKlan?
Mr. Young, He held one office, as EC at Monroe. That was the
question Mr. Appell asked me.
Mr. Hrrz. EC, Monroe.
Mr. Young. Yes, sir ; then later, he was appointed to me as Acting
Grand Dragon for the State.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3887
Mr. Weltner. The initials EC stand for exalted cyclops, which is
equivalent of the leader of a Klavern. Is that correct ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir, that is it.
Mr. Hrrz. And then tell me again what you said about his being
recommended to you as acting what ?
Mr. Young. Grand Dragon.
Mr. HiTz. Acting Grand Dragon. Did he take any position in the
charges made against you and Mr. Swenson ?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Was he on your side or on the other side in the discussion ?
Mr. Young. Sir, he was neither.
Mr. Hrrz. And when that came to a head, and you and Mr. Swenson
decided that you would separate yourselves, or at least cease to be
active in the Klan, did Mr. Bayles remain in the Klan?
Mr. Young. To my knowledge, he did not.
Mr. HiTZ. Did not?
Mr. Young. That is right.
Mr. Hrrz. You mentioned Buddy Gibbs as being the exalted cyclops,
I think it was, of Bossier?
Mr. Young. Bossier.
Mr. Hrrz. It was your own Klavern, was it not ?
Mr. Young. Bossier Klavern ; yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. And the time came when someone succeeded him, did it
not?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Who succeeded him ?
Mr. Young. I ask for the fifth amendment.
Mr. HiTz. Now when you became exalted cyclops — when you be-
came Imperial Dragon, was Buddy Gibbs still head of your Klavern ?
Mr. Young. To the best of my knowledge, he was.
Mr. Hrrz. And how long after you became Imperial Dragon did
Gibbs get succeeded by another?
Mr. Young. Sir, I am not sure. He was either succeeded right after
our — or just before. Now that I can't tell you. I am not sure.
Mr. HiTz. Either j ust before or j ust after ?
Mr. Young. In other words, when I was elevated to Imperial
Dragon — when I was elevated to Grand Giant, he was, at that time.
Now Buddy Gibbs fell out. He fell out of the organization entirely.
Mr. HiTZ. The entire organization ?
Mr. Young. The entire organization ; yes, sir. He got out.
Mr.HiTz. He left the Klan?
Mr. Young. He did not resign, he just gave up. What I mean, he
has not — I have not seen him or heard of him, and I know to my
knowledge that as long after that he lost out as EC of that Klavern,
he discontinued his function.
Mr. Hrrz. I see. Now these charges that were made against you
and Mr. Swenson, they related to money matters, among other things ;
didn't they ?
Mr. Young. Yes.
Mr. HiTz. And did they pertain as to money matters to your holding
of the office and your execution of the office of Imperial Wizard only,
or your entire — I am sorry, of Imperial Dragon only, or did those
3888 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLTJX KLAN IN THE U.S.
charges in respect to money relate to your entire membership in the
Klan?
Mr. Young. Let me straighten this out. The relationship to the
money was not to the money of the Klan. It was to the money of the
robe money. That was most of the argument.
Mr. HiTz. I see.
Mr. Young. Now the relationship to me was that I should have made
some reparations, or I should have done something about that. Do
you understand ?
Mr. Hjtz. Not exactly.
Mr. Young. In my oiRce, they say that I was the Imperial Dragon,
that I should have changed it, or let somebody else have a shot at it,
in other words.
Mr. HiTz. Instead of Swenson ?
Mr. Young. Instead of Swenson ; yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Because he had sole control ?
Mr. Young. He had sole control of it. I had no control of it. It
was give to him by the Imperial Wizard, as I stated before.
Mr. HiTz. That is right, Davis gave it to him and told you to keep
your nose out of it ; didn't he ?
Mr. Young. Tliat is right.
Mr. HiTz. And then that is exactly what he said, or that then is the
meaning of it, to keep out of Mr. Swenson's conduct of the robe
business.
Mr. Young. He did not say that, exactly ; no, sir. He told me that
Mr, Swenson had the concession of the robes.
Mr. HiTZ. I see.
Mr. Young. And to allow Mr. Swenson to continue as long as he
wished.
Mr. HiTz. And did not you tell us today that also Mr. Davis said
that it was none of your concern ?
Mr. Young. No.
Mr. HiTz. Or words to that effect ?
Mr. Young. I don't remember saying he told me it was none of my
concern.
Mr. Hrrz. Or words to that effect ?
Mr. Young. He told me not to dig into it.
Mr. HiTz. "Not to dig into it." Well, let's use those words, then.
And you did not, did you ?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. And was that the sole accusation of mishandling of funds
that was again made against your, Mr. Young ?
Mr. Young. That was the question brought up to me. That I should
do something about it.
Mr. HiTZ. Well, was it not quite easy to represent to anyone who
accused you of that, that it was the act of the Imperial Wizard and
that your direction from the Imperial Wizard, who gave you your
job as Imperial Dragon, was to keep out of it ?
Mr, Young. At that time, it made no difference. There was a power
purge on ; and if I had to have told them that anybody had told me
to stay out of it, it would still have been the same thing over and over
again. When men set their mind to take over something, the first
thing they go through is your pocketbook.
ACTIVrriES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3889
Mr. Hjtz. Well, in any event, the accusations ?
Mr. Young. And they were out to take over, sir. And I knew it.
Mr. Hrrz. We are just talking about one phase of the reason they
asserted for it. Now, in any event, their criticism of you in the mis-
handling of funds was that you did not do better in supervising the
robe situation ?
Mr. Young. That must have been it ; yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. And you only had power to intervene, if you ever did
have it, after you became Imperial Dragon, so it would be the Imperial
Dragon period of your membership in the Klan that was subject to
that charge ; right or wrong ?
Mr. Young. That is right.
Mr. HiTZ. Yes. And it was in that period of time that the man
whom you will not now name to us was the head of the Klavem in
Bossier Parish, as successor to Mr. Gibbs? Buddy Gibbs.
Am I correct in that ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I don't answer that question. I have invoked the
fifth amendment.
Mr. HiTZ. I am speaking not of the person but the period in which
it is involved.
Mr. Young. The period with which all that was involved ?
Mr. HiTz. What I am saying
Mr. Young. What — was after Brother Gibbs was done.
Mr. Hrrz. That is right, and after this unknown person whose name
you will not give, because you say it might incriminate you, was the
Klavem head ?
Mr. Young. I still invoke the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. I see.
Mr. Weltner. Very well.
Mr. HiTz. All right, sir.
When did you first meet Mr. Davis, the Imperial Wizard of the
Original Knights?
Mr. Young. Oh, you mean when I come back in ?
Mr. HiTz. Yes.
Did you know him before you came back in the Klan ?
Mr. Young. In '60. I had heard of him.
Mr. HiTz. Had you met him?
Mr. Young. Do you mean did I know him personally ?
Mr. Hrrz. Yes; did you ever shake hands with him, say hello to
him, be in a gathering with him, observe him ?
Mr. Young. I had never been in a gathering with him.
Mr. HiTz. Had you ever seen him before you came back into the
Klan your second go-round ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hrrz. How many times had you seen him ?
Mr. Young. Once.
Mr. HiTz. And had you met him, had you shaken hands with him
and been introduced to him ?
Mr. Young. No, sir ; I had seen him and I was told who he was.
Mr. HiTz. Okay. And then it was within a matter of months that
after you had been elected by the Klavern to be its klaliff, that Mr.
Davis elevated you to higher office, which was the Grand Giant; was
it?
3890 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Young. By request. By an appointment, as I told you before.
By appointment of Brother Swenson.
Mr. HiTZ. And do I have the title correctly, Grand Giant, he made ?
Mr. Young. Grand Giant ; yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Now what occasions — by the way, did you see Mr. Davis
from the time when you first saw him, again, until he had made you
Grand Giant?
Mr, Young. No, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. And how did that come about? Who recommended
you?
Mr. Young. I told you. Brother Swenson.
Mr. HiTZ. Swenson?
Mr. Young. Yes. Brother Swenson recommended me.
Mr. HiTz. Did Swenson know Davis very well ?
Mr. Young. Sir, I can't say. I don't know.
Mr. Weltner. One moment, please.
Would counsel come up ?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. HiTZ. Did Mr. Swenson know Mr. Davis very well, so far as
you know ?
Mr. Young. He knew him, sir.
Mr. HiTZ Yes. Did you understand him to be well acquainted with
Mr. Davis?
Mr. Young. No, I never asked him that question.
Mr. HiTz. Now, you said that you were made Grand Dragon by
Mr. Davis after you had only been in the Klan 6 months ?
Mr. Young. Grand Giant, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. I am sorry. Grand Giant. And that you had only been
in the Klan 6 months at that time, or your second go-round ?
Mr. Young. I believe I said it was approximately around 6 months ;
yes.
Mr. Hrrz. All right, "approximately" then instead of "about."
And that, most of that time, you were on your railroad business and
work, to a point where you went to either few or no meetings at all
of the Klavern.
Mr. Young. That is right.
Mr. HiTz. That you did not know who the members were and, so
far as I can remember, you only knew who its exalted cyclops was.
But you also told us that the Imperial Wizard gave you that new office
because you "knew the work," to quote you. Can you explain that?
Mr. Young. I can explain it in this sense of the word. Initiatory
work, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. By that, do you mean recruitment?
Mr. Young. I had observed — no, sir. I am no organizer.
Mr. HiTZ. Well, then, explain what you mean by "initiatory."
Mr. Young. Lodge work. Just like any other lodge.
Mr. Hrrz. I see. You are an advanced Shriner, are you not, or
rather, you are an advanced Mason and a Shriner now ?
Mr. Young. No, sir; I am just 32d degree Mason and a Shriner.
Mr. HiTz. And a Shriner. Was Mr. Swenson a Shriner?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Davis ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3891
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. And then you said that you became Imperial Dragon by
appointment of Mr. Davis down in Dallas, for the reason, as I im-
derstand it, that there was not anyone else qualified to be appointed on
the imperial level ?
Mr. Young. That is right.
Mr. HiTZ. And that no other imperial office was filled except his
and yours?
Mr. Young. Sir, to my knowledge, he was the only imperial officer
of the old Original living.
Mr. HiTz. That is right. And you were the only other one
Mr. Young. He appointed me.
Mr. HiTz. — that he appointed.
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. And didn't you also tell us that other imperial offices
ordinarily filled in the Klan were not filled because you were the
only one who was qualified to sit on the imperial level ?
Mr. Young. I said I supposed that was the only reason. As the
Original said, it has to be a number of years to become an imperial
officer. Now there could have been Klansmen and they would have
been Klansmen 50 years, sir. I don't know.
Mr. HiTz. I see. Now what sort of access did you have to the judg-
ments of Mr. Davis that caused you to achieve that honor so rapidly ?
Mr. Young. That I could not tell you.
Mr. HiTz. Was Mr. Davis ever accused of participating in the mis-
handling of funds, as you and Mr. Swenson were accused ?
Mr. Young. No, because Brother Davis never came to Louisiana
that I know of, but once.
Mr. HiTz. Moneys were sent on to him. Isn't that true?
Mr. Young. That is true.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Appell?
Mr. Appell. Mr. Young, yesterday we talked about Grady Wilder.
Today you identified him on this record as being Acting Grand Giant.
Yesterday you told us that he was the finance officer. Is that true,
sir?
Mr. Young. You want me to clarify that ?
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Young. He was the finance officer that was given a report, once
a month, and he gave it out to the various departments of the orga-
nization. That is what I mean.
Mr. Appell. He made a report on the financial status of the Original
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Did he handle any money ?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. From whom did he receive the information which was
contained in these financial reports ?
Mr. Young. Who did he receive the information from ?
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Young. I invoke the fifth amendment on that, sir.
Mr. Appell. Who was the secretary-treasurer of the Original
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
3892 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Young. I have already invoked the fifth amendment, sir, on
that same question.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, I am forced to ask the witness, in view
of the invocation of the fifth amendment on financial matters and peo-
ple there, as to whether Mr. Young, as an individual, ever financially
benefited from the organization, the Original Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Weltner, Mr. Young, we are about to conclude this hearing,
and I have just one or two questions which I would like to ask.
Mr. Young. Yes, sir.
Mr. Weltner. Did any Klavern affiliated with the Original Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan, of which you were Imperial Dragon, engage in
any acts of violence during the time of your membership ?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. Weltner. Do you know of any acts of violence in which they
engaged ?
Mr. Young. I know of no violence they were engaged in.
Mr. Weltner. And you state as a fact that at no time during your
membership in the Original Knights did any organization affiliated
with that body engage in acts of violence ?
Mr. Young. To my knowledge, there was not.
Mr. Weltner. With this — were any charges ever leveled against
any members of your organization for engaging in acts of violence?
Mr. Young. No, sir.
Mr. Buchanan, Mr. Yoimg, you have indicated that you had initi-
ated a ruling against an act of burning a cross, which you felt would
be using an instrument of terror or terrorizing in connection with an
election. And, consequently, you ordered that it not be done.
Mr. Young. Yes, sir, that was the order, one order that I had given.
Mr. Buchanan. Now, did you at any time hear talk of any other
like instance, either of terrorism or violence among the members of
the organization ?
Mr. Young. No, sir, we — they would not, in front of me, because
they knew how I stood.
Mr. Buchanan. And so neither before nor after this, you heard talk
of any terrorism or violence by members or Klavems?
Mr. Young. Sir, the only violence or anything I know of pertaining
to the Klan is what I had read in the newspapers, and that is simply
all this. I have not been active with the Klan since — I can't pinpoint,
it is January, February, or March of last year, which has been 15 or
16 months.
Mr. Buchanan. Yes.
Mr. Young. During my reign as Imperial Dragon of the old
Original, I was proud. Because there was nothing of any violence
that I know of. I meant to say that there was no violence while I was
affiliated with it.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Hitz ?
Mr. HiTZ. Did you get any of the robe money, directly or indirectly ?
Mr. Young. Sir, that comes back to that same question. I will
have to invoke the fifth amendment on that one.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3893
Mr. HiTz. All right.
Mr. Weltner. All right, Mr. Young, the session will conclude at
this point, and I think it would be in order for the Chair to advise
you at this point that you are now released for the present time, but
your subpena, without objection, will be continued in force and effect
until such time as you might be so advised by the direction of the
committee.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, I think that perhaps it ought to be to a
day certain, as certain as we can be now. I suggest that this be until
the 20th of September, at which time it can be either changed to a date
forward of that, or even accelerated beforehand.
Mr. Weltner. Very well then, Mr. Young, you are advised by this
committee that it is the action of the committee to continue your
subpena until the 20th day of September and that, if your presence is
not then and there required, you will be notified by this committee.
And the committee will stand at recess.
Thank you very much.
We wiU send you a letter, affirming, so that you have it in writing.
Mr. Hitz, you can direct a letter to Mr. Young advising him of the
20th of September.
Thank you.
Mr. Young. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Weltner. Mr. Young, you are advised that it is the action of
this committee to continue your subpena until the 20th day of Sep-
tember, at which time and place you are under a direction to appear
here for further proceedings in connection with this inquiry.
Thank you.
(Whereupon, at 6 p.m., Wednesday, July 28, 1965, the subcommittee
recessed, subject to the call of the Chair.)
bv-222 O— 67— pt. 5 i7
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN ORGANIZATIONS
IN THE UNITED STATES
Part 5
TUESDAY, AUGUST 24, 1965
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ B.C.
EXECUTIVE session ^
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to recess, at 2 :30 p.m., in oRom 313-A, Cannon House Ofl5.ce
Building, Washington, D.C., Hon. Edwin E. Willis (chairman) pre-
siding.
(Subcommittee members : Representatives Edwin E. Willis, of Lou-
isiana, chairman; Joe R. Pool, of Texas; Charles L. Weltner, of Geor-
gia, John M. Ashbrook, of Ohio; and John H. Buchanan, Jr., of
Alabama.)
Subcommittee members present: Representatives Willis, Pool,
Weltner, and Buchanan.
StaflP members present: Francis J. McNamara, director; William
Hitz, general counsel ; Alfred M. Nittle, counsel ; Donald T. Appell,
chief investigator; and B. Ray McConnon, Jr., investigator.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
This hearing this afternoon is being conducted pursuant to a com-
mittee resolution adopted March 30, 1965, resolving that the commit-
tee undertake an investigation of the various Klan organizations and
their activities with a view of holding hearings for the purpose of aid-
ing Congress in any necessary remedial legislation, a copy of which
resolution is already in the record.^
[A copy of the order appointing the subcommittee for this hearing
follows :]
August 20, 1965.
To : Mr. Francis J. McNamara,
Director, Committee on Un-American Activities
Pursnant to the provisions of the law and the Rules of this Committee, I hereby
appoint a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities, consisting
of Honorable Joe R. Pool, Honorable Charles L. Weltner, Honorable John M.
Ashbrook, and Honorable John H. Buchanan, Jr., as associate members, and my-
self, as Chairman, to conduct hearings in Washington, D.C., commencing on or
about Tuesday, August 24, 1965, and/or at such other times thereafter and places
^ Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.
2 For resolution, see pp. 1523, 1524.
3895
3896 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
as said subcommittee shall determine, as contemplated by the resolution adopted
by the Committee on the 30th day of March, 1965, authorizing hearings concern-
ing the activities of the various Ku Klux Klan organizations in the United States.
Please make this action a matter of Committee record.
If any member indicates his inability to serve, please notify me.
Given under my hand this 20th day of August, 1965.
/s/ Edwin E. Willis,
Edwin E. Willis,
Chairman, Committee on Un-American Activities.
The Chairman. Will the witness please stand? Please raise your
right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Mills. I do.
The Chairman. Proceed, Counsel.
TESTIMONY OF RAYMOND DUGUID MILLS
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, what is that machine you have in front of you ?
Mr. Pool. Just a second. Counsel.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Mills, would you give your full name for the record ?
Mr. Mills. My name is Raymond Duguid Mills — D-u-g-u-i-d.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Mills, I see you have a machine there that looks like
a tape recorder. I believe that the chairman will advise you that
we do not permit tape recorders to be used by witnesses, if it is your
intention to make it operative. I suggest that the chairman so advise
the witness and that it should be removed from the table.
The Chairman. Yes. That is the rule of the House.
Mr. Hrrz. Mr. Mills, will you please give your address?
Mr. Mills. Route 2, Box 393, Vanceboro, North Carolina.
Mr. HiTZ. What is your age, sir?
Mr. Mills. Thirty-five.
Mr. HiTZ. How much schooling have you had, Mr. Mills ?
Mr. Mills. High school education.
Mr. HiTz. Did you receive a subpena to appear here today, August
24, from this committee ?
Mr. Mills. I did, Mr. Hitz.
Mr. Hrrz. Do you have a copy of it with you? I don't ask you
to show it to me, but I wonder if you would hold it so I can ask a
couple of questions.
Mr. Mills. I have it.
Mr. HiTZ. This was served upon you on the 12th of August; was
it not, Mr. Mills?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. By Mr. McConnon, who sits on my left ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hrrz. And that was served at your — was that served at your
father's place of business ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. At the filling station.
Mr. Hitz. Were you working for him at the time that this subpena
was served on you ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLTJX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3897
Mr. Mills. I was.
Mr. HiTz. Now this subpena calls for you to produce certain rec-
ords and documents ; does it not, sir ?
Mr. Mills. That is ri^ht.
Mr. HiTz. May I see it ?
(Document handed to coimsel by witness.)
Mr. HiTz. I would like to read into the record, Mr. Mills, the re-
quirement of the duces tecum part of this subpena. This is for at-
tachment :
For any time within the period from January 1, 1961, to and including the
return date hereof, all books, papers, records, documents, memoranda, notes, etc.,
in your possession or available to you, belonging or relating to :
(1) the Klavern, Den or Klan of the United Klans of America, Inc., Knights
of the Ku Klux Klan chartered and operating in the area of New Bern, North
Carolina ;
(2) any organization, club, group, activity, or business operation, of any kind
or description, which is or has been :
(a) controlled by or affiliated with, or
(b) engaged in any activity (business or other) with,
the organization described in (1) above:
(3) any person by reason of any connection or any activity (business or other)
with the organization described in ( 1 ) above.
Now that is the subpena you have been served with. Is that right,
Mr. Mills?
Mr. Mills. That is right, Mr. Hitz.
Mr. Hitz. And that is what brings you here today ; correct ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. You are here under subpena and because of the subpena ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Mr. Mills, have you been furnished a copy of the rules of
the committee, this little blue book here ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. Hitz. I am now going to give you a copy to have and keep.
I would like particularly to advise you that this committee respects
the fifth amendment clause, giving the privilege against self-incrim-
ination, and that therefore you can claim, if you see fit to do so, the
privilege against self-incrimination before this committee in any situa-
tion where you feel that an answer to a question put to you might tend
to incriminate you.
Now, do you understand the words and the phrases that I have
used ? If not, I will explain them in some other fashion.
Mr. Mills. Well, I believe it is what it points to, Mr. Hitz ; you have
stated that I could use the fifth amendment. If the question was asked
to me that would tend to incriminate me, I pould use this amendment.
Is that right ?
Mr. Hitz. That is correct. If you honestly believe that your an-
swer would tend to incriminate you, or tend to involve you or lead you
towards a prosecution. Federal or State.
Mr. Mills. I understand it, Mr. Hitz.
Mr. Hitz. Yes. I also want to advise you that if you so desire, and
would you turn to your rule book, please ? And turn to page 4, please.
You may avail yourself of what is the content of part A there, under
"Advice of Counsel," which states : "At every hearing, public or exec-
utive, every witness shall be accorded the privilege of having counsel
of his own choosing."
3898 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
The Chairman. May I say that this is a paraphrase, or another way
of stating, of complying with the rules of the House, the pertinent
part being shown at page vii of the same blue rule book, which reads
as follows : "Witnesses at investigative hearings may be accompanied
by their own counsel for the purpose of advising them concerning their
constitutional rights."
Mr. HiTZ. Now, Mr. Mills, having advised you here of the matter
of self-incrimination and the matter of counsel, I am going to ask you
whether or not you have complied by bringing and producing the
papers and records
Mr. Pool. Mr. Hitz, pardon me just a second. Have you all asked
him if he has counsel?
Mr. Hitz. Not in so many words ; no.
Mr. Mills, do you have counsel with you here today in the room?
Mr. Mills. I do not.
Mr. Hitz. And you understand the statement that was made to you
with reference to the rule of the House and the rule of this committee
having to do with counsel?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. Mr. Mills, have you brought with you, and do you pro-
duce, the material that is called for in the subpena ?
Mr. Mills. I produced what material the FBI seized on my premises.
This is all the material that I have relating to the Klan, or the Den
of Klan or Klavern.
Mr. Hitz. At the time of the service of the subpena on August 12?
Mr. Mills. That is right.
Mr. Hitz. And is it all that was available to you, that is, that you
could get your hands on and bring with you ?
Mr. Mills. That is right.
Mr. Hitz. Would you please tell us whether or not that picture, that
framed picture, is part of what you have brought with you and turned
over earlier today to the staff of the committee?
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Hitz. Is that what you turned over ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hitz. What is it, Mr. Mills ?
Mr. Mills. This is the charter for the Klans. Craven County.
Mr. Hitz. That would be the charter for the Klan of the county,
that is, for Klavern of the Klan ? Is that right?
Mr. Mills. That is right.
Mr. Hitz. And it issues from what organization ?
Mr. Mills. It comes from Mr. James R. Jones and the Imperial
Wizard, Mr. Shelton.
Mr. Hitz. Yes.
Now Mr. Mills, this reads, "United Klans, Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan of America, Inc."
Now that is the document that we are speaking of, and it is one
which charters a Klan organization, that is, a Klavern, in the county
of Craven. Is that right?
Mr. Mills. That is right.
Mr. Hitz. I would like to have this received in evidence, and we
would have that known as Mills No. 1, Mr. Chairman.
I
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3899
The Chairman. The document will be received and marked axjoord-
ingly.
(Document marked "Raymond Mills Exhibit No. 1" ; also designated
"James Jones Exhibit No. 26." See p. 1765.)
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Mills, I would like to hand you a spiral notebook and
ask you if that is a notebook that you brought with you this mornmg
and turned over to the staff.
Mr. Mills. It is, sir.
Mr. Hnz. Is that produced — brought and produced in answer to
the subpena duces tecum ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. What is the document?
Mr. Mills. It was minutes of, I would say, just a few of the meet-
ings that were attended or that were held in Craven County, in this
notebook.
Mr. HiTZ. That would be the meetings of the Craven County or the
Klan organization for Craven County, the Klavern organized there.
Is that right?
Mr. Mills. That is right.
The Chairman. He said a few of the meetings. In other words, you
held more meetings than are reflected in the minute book ?
Mr. Mills. Definitely, yes.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman I would like to have this received and let
it be known as Mills No. 2.
The Chairman. It will be received and so marked.
(Document marked "Raymond Mills Exhibit No. 2" and retained in
committee files. For minutes of August 17, 1964, meeting, see com-
mittee report, The Present-Day Ku Klux Klan Movement^ p. 116.)
Mr. Pool. Could I look at that ?
( Document handed to Mr. Pool. )
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, before we get on to another exhibit, I would
like to ask you whether this wrapping paper, with certain stamps and
whatever on it, is the way in which you had the charter wrapped when
you brought it to us and when you opened it, or had it opened, in our
presence this morning in the staff room ?
Mr, Mills. Yes, sir ; this was the cover.
Mr. HiTZ. And did these markings appear on it when you brought
it and gave it to us?
Mr. Mills. They did, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. And did they appear on there when you received them
from Mr. Luther Hamilton, Jr. ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. And who is he ?
Mr. MJCLLS. He is the solicitor.
Mr. HiTZ. In what city ?
Mr. Mills. State solicitor. He lives in Morehead City.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask that that be marked as
Mills 1-A.
The Chairman. It will be so marked.
(Document marked "Raymond Mills Exhibit No. 1-A" and retained
in committee files.)
Mr. HiTz. Now next, Mr. Mills, I would like to ask you whether
this paraphernalia, consisting of three pieces, is also part of what you
3900 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
brought to the committee and turned over to the staff this morning
as part of the material called for in the subpena duces tecum?
(Material handed to witness.)
Mr. Mills. That is right.
Mr. HiTZ. Would you please tell us what that paraphernalia is?
Mr. Mills. You mean this?
Mr. HiTZ. Yes.
Mr. Mills. This is a robe.
Mr. HiTZ. What kind of a robe ?
Mr. Mills. It is a Klan robe.
Mr. HiTZ. That is the larger of the three pieces here?
Mr. Mills. Sir?
Mr. HiTZ. The larger of the three ?
Mr. Mills. This is the cap [indicating], this is the sash [indicat-
ing], this is the robe [indicating].
Mr. HiTz. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to have that received in evidence, and
all three regarded and marked as Mills No. 3.
The Chairman. It will be received in evidence and so marked.
(Uniform marked "Raymond Mills Exhibit No. 3" and retained in
committee files.)
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Mills, while we are on this exhibit, tell me what
color is this robe, please. Having in mind that we are trying to illumi-
nate the record that the young lady is taking down, although we can
see it. What color is this robe ?
Mr. Mills. Red and white.
Mr. HiTZ. Now the red is — what do you call the red and where is it?
Mr. Mills. You see where it is.
Mr. HiTZ. I am trying to illuminate the record, if you don't mind,
sir. Is it part of
Mr. Mills. It is part of the robe.
Mr. HiTz. Is it part of the back of the robe ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. And is it on one side only ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Do you have any name for that part of the robe?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. And on the front, am I correct in it being the front, there
is that insignia ?
Mr. Mills. That is right.
Mr. HiTZ. Is there any name for the insignia ?
Mr. Mills. Just a Klan insignia.
Mr. HiTz. What Klan robes are white with the red coloring?
Mr. Mills. I use the fifth amendment on that, and not answer it.
iThe Chairman. Do you apprehend or fear that an answer to this
question may tend to involve you or incriminate you ?
Mr. Mills. I do, sir.
The Chairman. All right. Your invocation is accepted.
I think the record ought to reflect, since it must do so on its own
face, that a while ago, when admonished that a recording device
couldn't be used by the witness, he put it away. We know you did it,
but let the record show it.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3901
Mr. HiTZ. Did you understand what the chairman said to you, or
said to the committee ?
Mr. Mills. I heard some of it. Some of it, I did not understand.
Mr. HiTz. I didn't hear all of it, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. That last remark ?
Mr. HiTz. No, I did not. We have trouble hearing down here.
The Chairman. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Hrrz. Mr. Mills, towards the beginning of this session, we ad-
vised you that the committee does not permit tape recorders to be used
by witnesses and, after advising you of that, you put it away ; did you
not?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. So it is not in operation. In fact, it is not on the table
at this time.
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, without regard to this particular robe that
you have here, I ask you generally, will you tell me if there are robes,
to your knowledge, in the Klan, of different colors and different
makeup than this ?
Mr. Mills. I will also take the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. Pool. Repeat the question, again, I didn't get all of it.
Mr. HiTz. Will you read it, please ?
(The question was read by the reporter.)
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, have you ever been a member of any part or
organization of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Wliat organization were you a member of in the Ku Klux
Klan?
Mr. Mills. What organization ?
Mr. HiTZ. That is correct. What Ku Klux Klan organization did
you belong to ?
Mr. Mills. Well, I think the charter will show that.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you mind repeating, if it does show it? Will you
tell me from your own information and recollection what Ku Klux
Klan organization you have belonged to?
Mr. Mills. The charter will show that.
The Chairman. Well, read the words in the charter, and ask him if
that is the organization.
Mr. Mills. Read all of it?
Mr. HiTz. Read the organization.
fThe Chairman. Read the name of the Klan that you belong to. It
is right in front of you there. The record ought to show that. You
see, that document can't be copied in that little book, so we are asking
you what order you belong to.
Mr. Mills. United Klans, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of Amer-
ica, Incorporated.
The Chairman. All right, thank you.
Mr. HiTZ. When did you join that organization, Mr. Mills?
Mr. Mills. I will also take the fifth amendment on that, and refuse
to answer.
3902 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
The Chairman. Why ?
Mr. Mills. On the grounds that the answer I give might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, you have already admitted that you have
belonged to the Ku Klux Klan organization that you have just named.
And my last question was, When did you join ?
Mr. Mills. I answered your last question.
Mr. Hrrz. By stating that it would incriminate you to give the
answer?
Mr. Mills. I used the fifth amendment and did not give an answer.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, having admitted that you were a member of
the Ku Klux Klan, I advise you that you have waived your privilege
against self-incrimination with respect to the details of your member-
ship in the Klan, which includes the time when you joined the Klan.
Are you aware that you can waive the privilege against self-incrimina-
tion by giving testimony ?
Mr. Mills. I don't understand what you mean.
Mr. Pool. Counsel
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Hrrz. Mr. Mills, did you separate from the Klan membership
that you have already told us existed? Did you leave the Klan at
some time?
Mr. Mills. When you say "leave" it, are you speaking of dissolving
partnership or office position ?
Mr. HiTz. Well, first of all, since you mention it, I will ask you
whether you ever held an office in the United Klans ?
Mr. Mills. I would refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. Are you still a member of the Klan, of the order
that you named a while ago ?
Mr. Mills. And I also refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. Why?
Mr. Mills. I will take the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Hrrz. Mr. Mills, this charter has down in the lower left-hand
comer the following :
CERTIFICATE OF ACCEPTANCE
THIS CERTIFIES that above CHARTER was read to and duly adopted by
above named Klan in session assembled with all stipulations and conditions
herein stated or implied on the 4 day of June A.D., 1964 A. K. 98 Signed Raymond
D. Mills EXALTED CYCLOPS of the above named Klan and in behalf of all
present and future members thereof.
Witness James R. Jones Grand Dragon of Realm.
Now having that in mind, from this charter document here, were
you or were you not exalted cyclops of the Klan unit that is chartered
here?
Mr. Mills. I was at one time.
Mr. HiTz. How long were you exalted cyclops of the Klan unit ?
Mr. Mills. I refuse to answer that question, using the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. HiTZ. Are you ^ill exalted cyclops of this Klan irnit of
United Klans?
Mr. Mills. And I will refuse to answer that on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Hrrz. And when you say "fifth amendment"
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3903
Mr. Mills. On the grounds that an answer I give might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. HiTz. And we will
Mr. Pool. Counsel, just a minute. You say that you were "at one
time." That was the only answer given to that. Does that mean that
you are not now ? That is all we are trying to find out.
Mr. Mills. I didn't say that, sir. I didn't say that I was not now.
When this was, I was.
Mr. Pool. What did you say, then ? I was just trying to get it.
Mr. Mills. Ask your question, and I will answer it.
Mr. HiTz. In substance, I asked you whether you were the exalted
Cyclops of this unit of the United Klans on June 4, 1964 ?
Mr. Mills. I was at that time ; yes, sir.
Mr. Pool. What I was asking, then, is to clarify in my mind, are
you still in that position ?
Mr. Mills. I took the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Pool. Well, is there any way you can clarify it where you don't
have to take the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Mills. I can't. I can't.
Mr. Pool. Go ahead. Counsel.
Mr. HiTZ. When you say the fifth amendment, you mean the self-
incrimination clause of it ; and do you wish us to assume that you mean
that whenever you say that ?
Mr. Mills. That I will not answer it.
Mr. HiTz. Yes, but on the basis of the self-incrimination part of the
fifth amendment?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. All right, we will understand that.
Mr. Pool. When he takes the fifth amendment, that is, what he is
claiming is self-incrimination ; is that the way ?
Mr. Mills. Absolutely, Mr. Pool.
Mr. HiTz. What is your business or occupation, Mr. Mills?
Mr. Mills. I help my father work.
The Chairman. What is the answer ?
Mr. Mills. I help my father.
Mr. HiTz. What business is he in ?
Mr. Mills. We have a small store and we also farm.
Mr. HiTz. Where is the store located ?
Mr. Mills. In the vicinity of Vanoeboro, North Carolina,
Mr. HiTZ. Is that near New Bern ?
Mr. Mills. No ; that is 16 miles north of New Bern.
Mr. HiTz. Are you also a salesman on your own ?
Mr. Mills. I have been. I am not any more.
Mr. HiTz. What did you sell ?
Mr. Mills. I believe I use the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. I can't see why, or on what basis, it could possibly
incriminate you.
Mr. Mills. I can't see whatsoever in any way, Mr. Willis, the job
that I had for a livelihood would intend to have any part of this what-
soever. Now if it will, if you will explain it to me
The Chairman. All right, let me ask you this question : Were you
engaged in selling Klan paraphernalia ?
3904 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Did you sell anything connected with the Klan, Mr.
Mills?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Did you sell any robes ?
Mr. Mills. No. sir.
The Chairman. I should tell you that as a matter of law we don't
accept your invocation of the fifth amendment on this and even other
questions we have asked you. For instance, you said that you can't
conceive of what you might have engaged in in the selling line has to
do with these hearings. That, in itself, showed that you know better,
that your invocation has nothing to do with your rights. You can only
invoke the fifth amendment if you fear that it might subject you to
criminal prosecution or tend to incriminate you. I am just making
these statements, because I want the record to be clear. You don't
have the right to choose willy-nilly on what point you will invoke the
fifth amendment. For the time being, we will let it go.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, this charter is signed "BY HIS lordship," it
says, "Robert M. Shelton." Underneath that is the description, "Im-
perial Wizard, of the Invisible Empire, United Klans, Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan of America, Inc."
Do you know Robert M. Shelton?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Have you ever known him ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Have you ever met him ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Have you ever seen him, so far as you know ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Now his signature is attested by "William O. Perkins,"
according to this, who is described as the Imperial Kligrapp. Do
you know William O. Perkins?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Now in case that is a middle initial other than "O," I
will ask you, do you, do you know a William Perkins?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Have you ever known him ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Have you ever seen him, so far as you know?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Now over in the left-hand side of this charter, under-
neath your certificate of acceptance, there is stated, "Witness, James
R. Jones, Grand Dragon of Realm." Do you know James R. Jones?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. In what way have you known Mr. Jones?
Mr. Mills. By meeting him. Personal acquaintance.
Mr. HiTz. Does Mr. Jones hold the position of Grand Dragon of the
realm?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. And what realm is that ?
Mr. Mills. For the State of North Carolina.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3905
Mr. HiTZ. And he therefore is a Grand Dragon of the United Klans,
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of America, Incorporated. Is that
right?
Mr. Mills. That is right.
Mr. HiTZ. How long have you known James Jones ?
Mr. Mills. Idon'tkaow.
Mr. HiTz. Approximately how long ?
Mr. Mills. I don't know.
Mr. HiTZ. Well, now you were exalted cyclops on June 4, 1964.
As of that time, about how long had you known Mr. Jones ?
Mr. Mills. I don't recall.
The Chairman. Pardon?
Mr. HiTZ. Can you not approximate that within several years ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. How long have you known Mr. Jones as the Grand
Dragon of the North Carolina Realm ?
Mr. Mills. I do not know, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Will you approximate that for us ?
Mr. Mills. I can't.
Mr. Pool. Wlien is the first time that you met Mr. Jones ?
Mr. Mills. I really don't know.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Chairman, I direct that you instruct the witness to
answer the question.
The Chairman. I must direct you to answer that question. You
must have some notion, some idea, as to how long you have known Mr.
Jones.
Mr. Pool. The question was when he first met him.
The Chairman. The question was about when you first met him.
Not necessarily the place or the exact date, but about, in terms of
weeks or months or years. Certainly you have a notion of that.
Mr. Mills. My answer is I don't know.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, we are going to try and iind out
iThe Chairman. Well, my statement to you here is that that is in-
credible. And I direct you to answer that question.
Mr. Mills. I can't answer it.
The Chairman. Do you mean by that you are reinvoking the — you
have not invoked the fifth amendment, by the way, on that question.
So I must warn you that you are treading on dangerous ground in
refusing to answer simple questions that logic, commonsense, dic-
tate that you can answer. You said you had a high school educa-
tion, and so you are on your own. I have directed you to answer the
question, and you still persist in saying you don't know. The record
will speak for itself.
Proceed.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, are you stating that you can't answer that ques-
tion because you know the answer and won't give it, or because you
don't know the answer?
Mr. Mills. I do not know the answer.
Mr. HiTZ. Let's see if we can get at it this way: How long have
you been married, Mr. Mills ?
Mr. Mills. Approximately 13 years.
Mr. HiTz. Did you know Mr. Jones at the time that you were
married, sir ?
3906 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTZ. That is, you are saying that you feel in good faith that
it will incriminate you, or tend to incriminate you, if you state that
at the time that you were married, 13 years ago, you also knew Mr,
James R. Jones ? Is that what you are saying ?
Mr. Mills. I use the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. You have told us that you have a high school education.
Will you tell us, please, approximately when you graduated fi-om high
school ?
Mr. Mills. 1950.
Mr. HiTz. At that time did you know James R. Jones ?
Mr. Mills. I did not.
Mr. HiTZ. I am going to ask you again whether you knew Mr. Jones
several years later when you were married, in 1963 ?
Mr. Mills. And I will take the fifth amendment on that and use it.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, I am corrected by our staff director. If I said,
as I think I did, that you were married in '63 and, therefore, I asked
you
Mr. Mills. I was not married in '63.
Mr. HiTz. I am saying that I was corrected, and I am now correcting
myself, Mr. Mills, so that my question again is, having in mind that
you said that you did not know Mr. Jones when you graduated from
high school in 1950, 1 would like to ask you whether or not you knew
Mr. Jones when you got married.
Mr. Mills. And I will use the fifth amendment on that question.
The Chairman. When did you get married ?
Mr. Mills. Somewhere about the latter part of 1952 or the first of '53,
somewhere along in there.
The Chairman. Mr. Mills, while you were exalted cyclops, did you
have anything to do with the collection of initiation fees or of dues
from the members of the Klavern that operated in Craven County?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Pool. Let's make it more general. Have you ever collected any
dues for the Klavern ?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that also.
Mr. HiTz. Have you ever transmitted any initiation fees, any dues,
any collections, or any money of any sort, to any of the higher officers,
particularly to the Imperial Wizard of the Klan ?
Mr. Mills. I will take the fifth amendment on that, also.
Mr. HiTz. Have you ever transmitted any moneys of that sort to
anyone within the Klan ?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Did you ever collect money from Klansmen and fail
to transmit it to your superiors, where the funds ought to go, if you
collected them ?
Mr. Mills. I will n=e the fifth amendment on that^ too.
The Chairman. Why ?
Mr. Mills. On the ground that the answer I would give might
intend to incriminate me in some way.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, do you know a man named French?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that, sir.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3907
Mr. HiTZ. Do you know a man named E. E. Mills? Do you know
E.E.Mills?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. Hjtz. Do you know Joseph Wetherington ?
Mr. Mills. I will take the fifth amendment on that, also.
Mr. HiTz. Do you know Bryan Ipock ?
Mr. Mills. What's that?
Mr. HiTz. Bryan Ipock, I-p-o-c-k.
Mr. Mills. I will take the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. HiTz. Do you have any knowledge of a bank account in the
name of Craven County Improvement Association in the First-Citizens
Bank & Trust Company ? In New Bern, North Carolina ?
Mr. Mills. I will take the fifth amendment on that, too.
The Chairman. Why ?
Mr. Mills. The answer I give might intend to incriminate me in
some way.
The Chairman. Is there such a bank in that town ?
Mr. Mills. I do not know.
Mr. HiTZ. What is the Craven County Improvement Association?
Mr. Pool. Now, just a minute. You said you do not know whether
there is such a bank in that county.
Mr. Mills. I don't know how many banks is in the town of New
Bern.
Mr. Pool. But you are stating the fact that you do not know
whether that bank is in that town. Is that right ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir. I don't know anything about the banks in
New Bern.
Mr. Pool. All right, that is your statement.
Mr. HiTZ. Including the First- Citizens Bank & Trust Company in
New Bern?
Mr. Mills. I have answered that question.
Mr. HiTz. Answer it again, please.
Mr. Mills. I do not know anything about the banks in New Bern,
North Carolina.
Mr. HiTz. What is the Craven County Improvement Association,
Mr. Mills?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, would you please look at the charter here,
which I am holding up in front of you, and I invite you to read with me
the first "Whereas" clause to it, and it says :
WHEREAS, The Imperial Wizard has received a petition from the following
named Klan of the Invisible Empire, Craven County Improvement Assoc [iation].
Praying for themselves and others and their successors to be instituted a Klan
of the Order under the name and number of New Bern Klan No. 33, Realm of
North Carolina
and so forth.
Does that, what I have read, appear on the charter which you have
brought and given to us ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hrrz. Now what is the Craven County Improvement Associa-
tion that is named in this charter which you have accepted, according
to the legend on the left-hand bottom corner? What is the associa-
tion?
3908 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, shortly after the 24th of January 1965 were
you arrested ?
Mr. Mills. I believe — may I say this : There is a transcript in the
Craven County Courthouse of my record. It can be obtained by
anyone that wants it. Anything pertaining to my arrest, the trial, I
will use the fifth amendment. The courthouse speaks for itself, and
I will not answer any questions.
The Chairman. Well, I don't wish the record to indicate that silence
in this or any other instance indicates acceptance of your right to
invoke the fifth amendment in these areas. The counsel has a perfect
right to pursue this line of examination, and I invite him to proceed.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Chairman, I move we recess for 20 minutes.
The Chairman. We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.
(Whereupon, at 3 :20 p.m., a brief recess was taken.)
(The subcommittee reconvened at 4 p.m. Subcommittee members
present: Representatives Willis, Pool, and Buchanan.)
The Chairman. The subcommittee will come to order.
Sir, before the short recess we took in order to respond to a vote
on the floor, you said — and I don't know whether that was taken down
by the reporter — that your attorney had asked that you be permitted
to get a transcript of your testimony.
Is that correct ?
Mr. Mills. That's right.
The Chairman. In that connection, I want to read from the rules of
the committee. You have the rule book, the Rules of Procedure, that
little blue bound document which I see you have before you.
If you turn to page 3, you will see that any witness or his counsel
may obtain a transcript of any executive testimony of the witness :
(1) When a special release of said testimony prior to public release is author-
ized by the Chairman of the Committee or the Chairman of any Subcommittee ;
or
(2) After said testimony has been made public by the Committee.
This is an executive session, and it will require committee action on
the making of your testimony public before that can be done, but we
will certainly take your desire under consideration.
Now, from your statement, it appears that you did consult with a
lawyer or counsel before testifying.
Mr. Mills. I talked with one ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you talk to more than one counsel ?
Mr. Mills. I talked with three.
The Chairman. Pardon ?
Mr. Mills. I talked with three.
The Chairman. Three counsel ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So you are well advised of your rights ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed, Counsel.
Mr. Mills. Before we start, do I get a transcript of this ?
The Chairman. Well, under the rule, this testimony will first have
to be made public. You see, these are executive sessions.
Mr. Mills. Yes.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3909
The Chairman. And customarily, we will take your desire under
consideration, but customarily executive testimony taken in prepara-
tion for public hearings is not released until the public hearings.
So that's the situation we are under, in accordance with the rules.
So I can only tell you that we will take your request into consideration,
but I would doubt that any testimony, yours and other witnesses',
taken in executive session, will be released and made public before the
open hearings. I would doubt that, but you have made the request, and
we will consider it. We will let you know.
Right now, I can't say you will have it. I can't tell you that, under
the rules I have just read. It will require committee action.
Proceed, Counsel.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, do you know a man in New Bern named
Oscar Dove ?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. Oscar Dove, it is our information, Mr. Mills, is an under-
taker, and he operates what is known as Dove's mortuary on Pem-
broke Road.
Are you aware that, about the middle of August 1964, there was a
cross-burning at the Dove mortuary, about 10 o'clock in the evening ?
That is my question.
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. HiTz. Did you, Mr. Mills, have anything to do with the keeping,
by that I mean the making of the minutes that are contained in the
spiral notebook that you have produced here today, which you said
was a notebook of minutes of some of the meetings of the Craven
County Klavem ?
Mr. Mills. Did I what, now, you say ?
Mr. HiTZ. Have anything to do with the making of the minutes
that are contained in the book ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Were they made under your direction ?
Mr. Mills. Refuse to answer that question, using the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Hrrz. Were they made with your knowledge ?
Mr. Mills. And I will take the fifth amendment on that, also.
Mr. Pool. Is there anything in your oath or in your ceremony in the
Klan that prevents you from answering some of these questions ?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that question, also.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Mills, are you refusing to answer any of these ques-
tions— some you have taken the fifth amendment on, several you said
you don't know, as to matters that would seem to be very well within
your recollection and your knowledge. Are you refusing to answer any
part of them because of your Klan oath ?
Mt- Mills. I will take the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. HiTZ. Have you ever read the minutes in the minute book that
you have produced here ?
Mr. Mills. I will also use the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. Under date of August 17, 1964, there are some minutes,
and I will read the last one, and it goes like this, quote :
We also decide to bum 3 cross one at Oscer Funerl [sic] Home, one on
Brices Creek Road, and one in Pamlico County. The meeting was then ajourind
[sic]. The Klexter built the cross for us.
59-222 O— 67^t. 5 28
3910 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S.
(At this point, Mr. Weltner entered the hearing room.)
Mr. HiTz. End of the quote.
Mr. Mills, does that minute in that book reflect that action of deci-
sion to bum those crosses taken at about the time of August 17 by
the Klavem ?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that, also.
The Chairman. Were three crosses actually burned at the places in-
dicated by the minutes ?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. HiTZ. Did you know, Mr. Mills, in August 1964, that Mr. Dove,
Oscar Dove, on whose place a cross was burned in the mid-part of Au-
gust 1964, was on the biracial committee in New Bern ?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that, also.
Mr. Hrrz. Do you now know that he was on the biracial committee
at that time ?
Mr. Mills. I will take the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Chairman, let's get that point, but I want to ask a
question at this time.
(The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Pool. I have been told, and I have read reports, that the Com-
munists have infiltrated the Ku Klux Klan to a certain extent. Is
there anv truth to that ?
Mr. Mills. I have no knowledge of it whatsoever.
Mr. Pool. Well, would you say that there are no Communists in the
Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Mills. As far as I know, there is not.
Mr. Pool. "Well, the reasoning behind it is that the Communists try
to get into any kind of organization, just to create havoc and to pro-
mote violence. Do you have anything to say about that ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir. As far as I know, there is no Communists in it.
Mr. Pool. No Communists in the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. Any other subversive groups have infiltrated the Ku
Klux Klan ? Do you know of any ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. Go ahead.
The Chairman. Well, along that line, but not drawing any kind
of comparison, do you know personally that FBI undercover agents
are members of the Klan organizations ?
Mr. Mills. I have no knowledge of it whatsoever.
The Chairman. You have heard that said, have you ?
Mr. Mills. Sir?
The Chairman. You have heard that said ?
Mr. Mills. Oh, yes ; I have heard it. I have read it in the paper.
The Chairman. Has that been the subject of discussions at meet-
ings?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
The Chairman. You mean to say you have never attended any meet-
ing where the subject of FBI undercover agents being in Klan orga-
nizations for the purpose of reporting the actions of the Klans to the
FBI, you have never — you now under oath say that that subject has
never been discussed in your presence at meetings of the Ku Klux
Klan?
ACTIVITIES OP KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3911
Mr. Mills. Let me say this to clarify one thing, Mr. Willis. I don't
know of any FBI bein^ into the organization. They may have men
into our organization, but let me say this : We have men in organiza-
tions, also.
The Chairman. You have what?
Mr. Mills. Also there is Klans in the law enforcement business.
The Chairman. What, for example?
Mr. Mills. Well, when I say in the law enforcement business, I
mean if the FBI, as you just mentioned, could be in our organization,
why can't we have Klans in that organization ?
TThe Chairman. Well, I am just asking what you know. That's all.
You said
Mr. Mills. I don't have-
The Chairman. You asserted as a fact that you had Klans in law
enforcement organizations. Do you ?
Mr. Mills. It has been told ; yes. I have read it in the papers.
The Chairman. Do you know of any ?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Do you know of members of Ku Klux Klan as such,
I mean, bona fide members from the point of view, of the Klan, who
are, let's say, in city police or sheriff's departments in you area, or
anywhere ? Do you know that to be true ?
Mr. Mills. I would have to use the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. I thought you would.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, you say that if other organizations have in-
filtrated the Klan, why shouldn't we infiltrate them? Who do you
mean when you say "we" ?
Mr. Mills. Well, we couldn't exist. I mean, myself, who wouldn't
be "we." I am saying that of any organization, could certainly — if
one organization can get into another organization, why can't this
organization get in their organization ?
Mr. HiTz. I know that, but when you said that, you said "we." Why
can't "we" do it?
Mr. Mills, Well, I was speaking more or less of the Klans.
Mr. HiTZ. That's what I gathered you were speaking of.
Are you now a member of the Klan ?
Mr. Mills, Kefuse to answer that, and using the fifth amendment,
Mr, HiTZ. On the evening of January 24, 1965, in New Bern, about
8 :30 p,m,, there was a bombing of a 1963 Plymouth automobile which
was parked near the St, Peter's African Methodist Episcopal Church,
and also a bombing by. dynamite of a 1962 Rambler, parked nearby,
on Johnson Street. They were both on Johnson Street, near Metcalf .
Considerable damage was done to each of the automobiles.
Were you there and did you have anything to do with the bombings
of those two cars ?
Mr. Mills, I believe I made myself clear a while ago that an5i:hing
pertaining to my arrest, or to the court case in which I was involved
in Craven County, is on record. Anything pertaining to this charge
or this trial, I will use the fifth amendment on it.
The Chairman, And incidentally, I want to make myself plain, just
like I did a while ago. We don't accept your right to do it. We
have a perfect right to question you about that.
3912 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Mills. That is O.K.
The Chairman. Meaning that we don't accept your invocation of
the plea.
Mr. Mills. Yes ; I know what you mean, Mr. Willis.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Mills, we have information that the Plymouth that
was bombed that night was owned by a man named Julius Levonne
Chambers, who was legal counsel for the NAACP. Did you know
that Chambers was legal counsel for that organization?
Mr. Mills. I will take the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Pool. Don't you have Klan members that have infiltrated the
NAACP?
Mr. Mills. Sir?
Mr. Pool. Do you have Klan members who have infiltrated the
NAACP?
Mr. Mills. I would use the fifth amendment on that, too, Mr. Pool.
Mr. HiTZ. Did you know that a man named Chadwick, who was
the owner of the Rambler that was dynamited that night, was a
speaker at the time at a civil rights meeting that was held in the St.
Peter's African Church that I have just referred to?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that, too. I will
plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. Hnz. Approximately an hour later, about 9 :30 p.m., that same
night, January 24, 1965, some dynamite was thrown and exploded near
the garage of the funeral home operated by Oscar Dove, on Pembroke
Road.
Were you there and did you assist in the placing and the exploding
of that clynamite ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Pool. What is the purpose of the Ku Klux Klan? What is
their main purpose ?
Mr. Mills. I will also take the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Pool. I asked you what the purpose was. That has nothing
to do with you. Do you know what the purpose is ?
Mr. Mills. I can accept the fifth amendment on that. I don't have
to answer.
Mr. Pool. Well, now, I am asking you, Do you know the purpose?
Mr. Mills. And I am teJlmg you, I took the fifth amendment.
Mr. Pool. You can say "yes" or "no."
Mr. Mills. No, I don't have to answer "yes" or "no."
Mr. Pool. Well, that's right, but I don't see where that could in-
criminate you, is what I am getting at.
Mr. Mills. Well, I am accepting the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. You are invoking it.
Mr. Mills. Yes.
Mr. HiTZ. Now, on that evening, were you the driver of the car
from which this dynamite was thrown ? And did you have with you
two young men named Fillingame?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
The Chairman. This robe and the cap and the string, which fits, I
suppose, around the midriff, that you brought here in response to the
subpena, does that paraphernalia belong to you ?
Mr. Mills. Does this belong to me ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3913
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. When was the last time you wore it ?
Mr. Mills. I don't recall.
The Chairman. Could you give an approximate date?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
The Chairman. And you are not invoking the fifth amendment on
that ? You j ust want to rely
Mr. Mills. I don't know the date.
The Chairman, Well, about?
Mr. Mills. I don't know about.
The Chairman. Was it last week ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
The Chairman. Last month ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
The Chairman. Yesterday? Three weeks ago?
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, the record can't get your shaking of your head.
Would you please
The Chairman. He said "No" to each question.
What did you say to each question ?
Mr. Mills. I said, "No, sir."
The Chairman. You mean
Let's try again,
Mr. Mills. You asked me, when did I wear that last.
The Chairman. You said you didn't know.
Mr. Mills. I said I did not know.
The Chairman. Then I asked you whether it was last week, last
month, 3 weeks ago, or yesterday, and you still say you don't know.
Mr. Mills. That is right.
The Chairman. Was it as long ago as 6 months ago ?
Mr. Mills. I don't recall.
The Chairman. You understand you are under oath ?
Mr. Mills, Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Do you know whether it was between 2 weeks and 2 years
ago, Mr. Mills?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. In view of that, I am going to ask you this question : Are
you able to recall approximately when you last wore the robe, but you
are not answering because of the fifth amendment?
Mr. Mills. On your question, I will also plead the fifth amendment
on that.
The Chairman. Did you wear that robe since the bombings that the
lawyer, our counsel, questioned you about a while ago ?
Mr. Mills. Did I what?
The Chairman. Did you wear that paraphernalia, the robe and so
on, since the bombings that Mr. Hitz, the committee lawyer, questioned
you about?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. Hrrz. Mr. Mills, do you know a young man named Edward Earl
Fillingame, F-i-1-l-i-n-g-a-m-e, and another young man named Laurie,
L-a-u-r-i-e, Latham Fillingame?
Mr, Mills. And I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
3914 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. HiTZ, Is it not a fact, Mr. Mills, that on the night of the 24th
of January 1964, that both of those young men named Fillingame
were riding with you in your car and that you were driving and that
one of them threw the dynamite that exploded and damaged each of
these two cars, and also the garage area of Mr. Dove's funeral parlor?
Is that not true ?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that. I will plead
the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Did you talk to these two gentlemen you just re-
ferred to about the fact that you were to appear before this committee
under subpena ?
Mr. Mills. I will also use the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Let me ask you just simply if you know : Do you
know whether they had been summoned to appear before this
conmiittee ?
Mr. Mills. I do not.
Mr. Pool. Is there something in the State of North Carolina that
makes this organization illegal ?
Mr. Mills. Is there what, sir ?
Mr. Pool. Is there anything in the State laws of North Carolina
that makes the Ku Klux Klan illegal in that State?
Mr. Mills. Not that I know of.
Mr, Pool. Well, what — some of the questions that have been asked
you, I don't understand your invoking the fifth amendment. That is
why I asked that question. I can understand why you invoke it in
some cases ; and in other cases, I can't.
Go ahead. Counsel.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Mills, you were arrested, were you not, a couple of
days after the bombing on the 24th of January, at your home, and
were charged with the bombing of these three loc^ions ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTZ. After you were charged with these bombings by the
State and also by the Federal authorities for conspiracy to violate
the civil rights law, the older civil rights law, you were admitted to
bond ; were you not ?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. And were you not able to obtain bond in the amount of
$25,000 for your release ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Well, that amoimt is no peanuts, you know.
Who signed the bond ?
Mr. Mills. The court and the papers speaks for it. It is on record
at the courthouse.
The Chairman. I am asking you, who signed the bond?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on it.
The Chairman. What is the amount of dues that must be paid on
admission to membership in the Klan organization you admitted you
were a member of ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Who did the collecting?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Did you do any collecting?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3915
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that, too.
The Chairman. Who is entitled to receive the money collected ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
The Chairman. Could you give at least the title of the officer who is
supposed to be the one responsible for the keeping of the dues
collected ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
The Chairman. Did you collect any of these dues or money for para-
phernalia, robes, and whatnot, personally, and did you, having received
them, convert that money to your own use, instead of turning it over
to your superiors entitled to the funds ?
Mr. Mills. I will use the fifth amendment on that, too; plead the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Pool. Have you been charged with any kind of crime in regards
to handling of the money ?
Mr. Mills. Sir?
Mr. Pool. Have you been charged with any types of crime or any
statutory violation on account of the way you handled money ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, have you ever filed a Federal income tax
return ?
Mr. MHiLS. I will plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
The Chairman. Why ?
Mr. Mills. The records speak for theirself .
The Chairman. Pardon ?
Mr. Mills. I say the record speaks f ot itself.
The Chairman. It speaks awfully bad for you.
Mr. Mills. Well, I plead the fifth amendment on that,
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, were you appointed — and I use that word as
distinguished from "elected" — were you appointed sometime prior to
the 4th of June 1964 to be the exalted cyclops, that is, the head man
of the Klavem in New Bern, which had the front name of Craven
County Improvement Association? Were you appointed to that?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
• Mr. HiTz. Would it help you, despite your pleading the fifth amend-
ment, to remind you that earlier today in this session you testified
that you were, on or about that date, the cyclops of this Klavem ?
I am merely now asking you were you appointed to that. Do you
still feel that that would incriminate you ?
Mr. Mills. I will take the fifth amendment on that. I plead the
fifth amendment.
Mr. HiTz. Now, shortly after this charter was granted, concerning
which we have information that it was what commenced the life of
this New Bern Klavem, were there not elections held in the Klavern
and was not someone else made by election the cyclops, and you wer^
not any longer the exalted cyclops ?
Mr. Mills. That is right.
Mr. HiTz. And that is reflected in the minutes; is it not?
Mr. Mills. That's right. As of August 10, 1964.
The Chairman. It has been related that Ku Klux Klan organiza-
tions have a self-disciplining procedure of some kind, whereby mem-
bers, so the story goes, violating laws or conducting themselves
improperly, are dismissed or voted out of the Klan.
3916 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S.
Following the charge filed against you and, as I recall, your convic-
tion, was any action taken by your organization to expel you?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, in connection with what the chairman was
asking you, did the Grand Dragon, Mr. Jones, immediately after your
arrest, aimounce that the Klan was going to stick by you and defend
you, and did he not attack the legality of your arrest and particularly
the search that accompanied the arrest, and did he not do all that and
say it in public print ?
Mr. Mills. I read it in the paper.
Mr. HiTz. Did it happen ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. And also, did not Eobert Shelton, the Imperial Wizard,
make a public statement, which also appeared in the press, to the effect
that the FBI had violated your rights when it seized what it did take
at the time of the arrest ?
(At this point, Mr. Buchanan left the hearing room.)
Mr. HiTz. And attacked the FBI for what it had done?
Mr. Mills. I don't recall.
Mr. Hrrz. Mr. Mills, without going into any more of the details
about your being charged with these dynamitings and what took place
in court, is it not a fact that after you had pleaded guilty to those
charges, which resulted in only two being brought and pressed against
you, that is, for the two automobile bombings, that you were publicly
declared by Grand Dragon Jones to be expelled from the Klan ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. Now, do you not know that that was stated by Mr. Jones
and published in the paper ?
Mr. Mills. It could have been.
Mr. HiTz. Do you know that it was ?
The Chairman. Well, now, was Mr. Jones telling the truth, or was
he lying, when he said you had been expelled ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. Now, after your plea of guilty to the two bombings, and
at about the time that I have just been referring to, did not Mr. Jones
also call you a big liar, in the public press, and are you not now aware
that he did do that ?
Mr. Mills. I recall reading it in the paper.
Mr. Pool. What was that in reference to? What was he talking
about ?
Mr. HiTz. And did not Mr. Jones say that you were a liar for what
you had previously told him about your participation, or lack of it, in
the bombings ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTz. And did Mr. Jones not say that it was his understanding
and belief that you were not implicated in the bombings and that now
that you had pleaded guilty to it, that made you a liar in his eyes,
and he said so ?
Mr. Mills. I think that's what was in the paper.
Mr. HiTz. And in turn, did you not call him the biggest liar in the
country ? Or words to that effect ?
Mr. Mills. Something to that effect might have been put into the
press. Seems like I read it.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3917
Mr. HiTz. Did you say it ?
Mr. Mills. Did I say it?
Mr. HiTz. Did you say that about Jones, or words to that effect,
that he was a big liar ?
Mr. Mills. I did.
Mr. HiTz. Now, what did you mean when you said that he was a
big liar, after he had called you one?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Could it be that both of you were exaggerating a
little bit?
Mr. Mills. Sir?
The Chairman. Could it be that maybe both of you were exaggerat-
ing ? I don't want to use the word "lying."
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
The Chairman. Well, I take it that Mr. Jones knew do^goned well
you were involved, but he was quite taken aback and disappointed
because you had talked about it. Isn't that the truth of it?
Mr. Mills. Well, I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Wliere is Mr. Jones ?
Mr. Mills. Sir?
The Chairman. Where does he live — Mr. Jones?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
The Chairman. Do you know from personal knowledge whether he
has been subpenaed to appear before this committee ?
Mr. Mills. I do not.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, does this name-calling, or whatever you would
like to term it, between you and Mr. Jones that got into the public
press at the time, and immediately after you pleaded guilty to the
bombings, relate to when it was that you were expelled or suspended
from the Klan ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Well, as a matter of fact, I ask you, is it a fact that
you never were expelled ?
Mr. Mills. Sir?
The Chairman. Is it a fact that you never were expelled, that Jones
was trying to make it appear that you were expelled in order to show
your Klan organization as being on the up and up? I am just asking.
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Pool. Let me ask a question, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Pool. Several years ago, the Attorney General put the Ku Klux
Klan, I believe, on the subversive list. And I just want to ask you
this as a matter of information : Does the Ku Klux Klan advocate the
overthrow of law and order and the overthrow of the Government,
or anything like that, in case they don't get their way ? Is there any-
thing like that in the Klan creed ?
Mr. Mills. Let's see, you said several years ago the Ku Klux Klan
was what, now ?
Mr. Pool. Was put on the United States Attorney General's subver-
sive list.
Mr. Mills. Well, I don't believe this is the organization
Mr. Pool. I wondered if it had changed its policy or something,
where — ^that's what I am getting at.
3918 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Mills. This is not the same organization as that was.
Mr. Pool. That's what I am getting at. Can you explain what has
happened in the Klan ?
This is investigating. We are trying to bring out the facts. We are
not trying to trip you on this, or anything like that.
Mr. Mills. I can't, Mr. Pool.
Mr. Pool. It has nothing to do with you personally, but I thought
maybe you could explain to the committee what had happened in that
regard.
Mr. Mills. I can't.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, was a collection taken up in the Klan to help
yon financially after you had been arrested and enlarged on bond and
before your trial at which you pleaded guilty ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. Did you receive any money that was collected to give
you aid ?
Mr. Mills. I will also plead the fifth amenmdent on that.
Mr. HiTz. Do you know Grady Mars, M-a-r-s ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that, also.
Mr. HiTz. Are you aware of any stir within the Klan having to do
with the disposition of any money that was collected for your aid?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you know whether or not some other Klavems within
the State contributed to that aid fund for you ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. HiTz. Were you ever elected to any office in the New Bern
Klavem ?
Mr. Mills. I also plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Pool. Have you ever engaged in politics for officeholders or
anything like that ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that, also.
The Chairman. Why ? How can running for public office subject
you to fear of criminal prosecution or tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Mills. Well, why would it have anything to do with this case,
Mr. Willis?
The Chairman. Well, that's not the point. We are conducting this
hearing. And you have to answer questions, except when you have a
right to invoke the fifth amendment. I am telling you
Mr. Mills. I used the fifth amendment on his question.
The Chairman. All right. I am just cautioning you as to what you
are doing.
Mr. Hrrz. Do you know Walter Moore ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Hrrz. Clifton Heath?
Mr. Mills. I will also plead it on that, too; the fifth amendment.
Mr. Hrrz. Fred Moore?
Mr. Mills. I plead the, fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. Harce Faulkner?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTZ. Cecil Moore?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3919
Mr. Pool. Now, Counsel, just a minute. When this investigation
was first announced, it seems to me I recall where several of the
leaders of the Klan stated publicly that they welcomed the investiga-
tion by this committee and would cooperate with the committee, be-
cause they had nothing to hide.
You are taking the fifth amendment on a lot of these questions.
Some of them, probably, you have a right to, but on some of them,
it is not cooperation with this committee, and I just want to point
that out to you that tliis record is being made, and for your own good,
I am telling you that.
You can go ahead and take the fifth amendment, all you want to,
but I am j ust mentioning that to you.
Mr. Hrrz. Do you know Cecil Moore ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you know those persons to have been members of the
Klan when you were ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Hrrz. Now, New Bern
The Chairman. Pardon me. I read in the press, certainly in the last
3 or 4 days, and I think it might even have been this morning or
yesterday, that quite a large number of Ku Klux Klansmen had a
meeting in North Carolina that recently, that is, within the last few
days.
Did you attend that meeting ?
Mr. Mills. I would plead the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. You think simply attending a meeting of the Ku
Klux Klan away from your hometown, or your county, would subject
you to criminal prosecution, tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. Pool. Does the Ku Klux Klan plan acts of violence at these
meetings ? Is that why you are invoking that ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, what kind of a car do you drive now ?
Mr. Mills. I drive two automobiles.
Mr. HiTz. Do you have a Valiant ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hjtz. What is the year of it ?
Mr. Mills. '65.
Mr. HiTz. What color is it ?
Mr. Mills. Ked.
Mr. HiTz. What sort of an engine does it have ?
Mr. Mills. ItisaV-8.
Mr. HiTz. How much horsepower ?
Mr. Mills. 235.
Mr. HiTZ. That is bigger than what usually comes in that model
and make of car in that year ; isn't it ?
Mr. Mills. They call that the Barracuda engine.
Mr. HiTZ. Is it
Mr. Mills. It is a standard engine. I mean, it is standard m a
Barracuda. That is the sports car. You can get it in the other cars,
but you have to order it. . .
Mr. HiTZ. I see. Well, yours isn't Barracuda, though; is it?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
3920 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S.
Mr. HiTz. So you have got the high-powered Barracuda engine put
in your Valiant. Is that it ?
Mr. Mills. Well, it came from the factory like that.
Mr, HiTz. Well, yes, but that's what you have, anyway; isn't it?
Mr, Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz, What's your other car ?
Mr. Mills. That's my wife's car.
Mr.HiTz, The Valiant?
Mr, Mills, No, sir ; the Plymouth. She has a Plymouth.
Mr. HiTz. What year is that ?
Mr. Mills. It is a new car, '65 model.
Mr. HiTz. '65. Has that got a large horsepower engine in it?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir,
Mr. HiTZ. How many horsepower have you got in that car ?
Mr. Mills. 365.
Mr. HiTz. Do you have air conditioning in your Valiant ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Do you have one in the Plymouth ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir,
Mr, HiTZ. Now, in your Valiant, you have got a citizens band two-
way radio ; haven't you ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Transmitter and receiver ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. What do you do with that ?
Mr. Mills. I can communicate from my house to my automobile.
Mr. HiTZ. And you have another citizens band receiver and trans-
mitter there; do you?
Mr. Mills, At my home?
Mr. HiTZ. At home.
Mr, Mills. Yes, sir.
Tlie Chairman. Can you use the same equipment in your car to com-
municate with other places than your home ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir ; providing that they have the same channel to
operate on that I do, I can.
Mr, HiTZ. And they do, don't they ?
Mr, Mills, Some of them do and some of them don't. The radios,
some of them are different.
Mr. HiTZ. And they have a lot of them in the New Bern area, do
they not, that are on the same channel ?
Mr. Mills. Approximately a hundred ; I would say a hundred.
Mr. HiTz. Have you conducted any Klan business over that citizens
band radio?
Mr. Mills. No, sir,
Mr. HiTZ. Are you aware that Robert. Shelton, the head of the
United Klans, has a pretty elaborate setup of numerous citizens band
radios ?
Mr. Mills. I don't know anything about Mr. Shelton,
Mr, HiTz, You don't know anything about him?
(At this point Mr. Buchanan returned to the hearing room.)
Mr. HiTz. Well, don't you know tliat he is the Imperial Wizard of
the United Klans of America ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3921
Mr. Mills. That's what it says on the charter.
Mr. HiTz. And he signed his name, and that's the title that he has
got, and you signed this as accepting not only the charter on behalf
of the Craven County Improvement Association, but the position of
its exalted cyclops. Isn't that right ?
\Mt. Mills. I will also plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. Well, you have already said that; haven't you?
Mr. Mills. Said what?
Mr. HiTz. That you accepted this charter on behalf of the New Bern
Klavem, and that you acknowledged it and the fact that you were its
exalted cyclops.
Mr. Mills. When I received this, I was exalted cyclops.
Mr. HiTz. No, haven't you told us today that you have already re-
ceived this for the Klavern and that you were its exalted cyclops?
Mr. Mills. At the time this was presented, I was.
Mr. HiTZ. That's correct.
Mr. Mills. That's right. That's right.
Mr. HiTZ. Now, this causes me to caution you, Mr. Mills, with re-
spect to your saying from time to time that you don't know, or that
you don't remember. You just said a little bit ago that you don't
know anything about Robert Shelton, and his name appears as the
person who gave this charter to your new Klavem, just organized in
New Bern.
Mr. Mills. May I state, Mr. Hitz, that that charter had his name on
it when it came to me.
Mr. HiTz. Yes. And your answer to my question was, the question
being, "Do you know him?" You said, "I don't know anything about
him."
Mr. Mills. I have never seen the man.
Mr. Hitz. Do you still say that you don't know anything about him ?
Mr. Mills. I don't know anything about Mr. Shelton.
Mr. Hitz. My caution to you, then, is that in this jurisdiction, Mr.
Mills, there is a case you might care to write down. The name is
Burle, B-u-r-l-e, in which somebody who was questioned under oath
by the grand jury said that he did not remember something, and it
was of such importance, apparently, in his life, that he was charged
with perjury for testifying that he didn't remember. And he was con-
victed of it, and the United States court of appeals upheld the convic-
tion for perjury of such a person.
That is the caution that I want to give you, and maybe should have
given it to you earlier.
Do you know a man named Woody Goodwin, who has been Klaliff
in the United Klans of America?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Hitz. Do you know him as a member of the Klan in the Realm
of North Carolina ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. Hitz, Have you known Arthur Leonard as a member of the
North Carolina Realm of United Klans?
Mr. Mills. I will also plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Hitz. Have you known that he has held the office of klokard?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
3922 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. HiTz. Have you known W. E. McCubbins? As a member of
the North Carolina Realm ?
Mr, Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. HiTz. Have you known McCubbins as a kludd ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Hrrz. Now, I have called Mr. Goodwin the Klaliflf, and Mr.
Leonard the klokard, and now I am calling Mr. McCubbins the kludd.
Actually, State's officers for North Carolina, they were more correctly
Grand Klaliff, grand klokard, and grand kludd. I am correct in
making that amendment to my question ; am I not ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead a fifth amendment on the question you
asked as to whether I knew them or not.
Mr. HiTz. And as to whether they were respectively Grand Klaliff,
grand klokard, and grand kludd, what is your answer?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. HiTz. Have you known Charles Deese, D-e-e-s-e, as a member of
the Klan in the Realm of North Carolina ?
Mr. Mills. I will also plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. Have vou ever known him to have been grand kligrapp ?
Mr. Mills. I will also plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. Have you known Ray Terry to have been a member of
the North Carolina Realm in the Klan ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. Have you known him to be the grand kladd of the North
Carolina Realm ?
Mr. Mills. I will have to plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. Do you know Buck House ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Hrrz. Do you know him to have been a member of the North
Carolina Klan? That is. North Carolina Realm, and to have been
the grand klarogo ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you know Jim McLamb ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you know him to have been a member of the North
Carolina Realm ? And a grand klexter for them ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. While counsel is looking up something, Mr. Mills,
did you know, or did you know of, a man named Eldon Edwards, from
Atlanta, who used to be head of the U.S. Klans?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Did you either know or did you read in the paper
or did you hear discussed that in 1960, when Mr. Edwards was head
of the U.S. Klans, that he expelled Shelton from the position of Grand
Dragon of the Alabama Klans for withholding funds, for not reporting
funds to the head of the Klan ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
The Chairman. And did you know that it was at about that time
that Shelton went on his own, apparently, and formed his own
organization ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3923
The Chairman. Do you know whether it was true or not true that
Shelton had, in fact, misappropriated or withheld funds that he
collected ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. All right. Counsel.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, did you make application as spokesman for
a group of persons to be admitted into the United Klans and to receive
a charter as a Klavern ? Did you do that ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Hrrz. What I am trying to find out from you is if you did not
make application, and have it favorably acted on by Mr. Shelton, here,
as Imperial Wizard, which resulted in the charter which resulted in
the Klavern which resulted in your being the appointed officer, hold-
ing the appointed office of exalted cyclops ?
Mr. Mills. Mr. Jones gave me that charter.
Mr. HiTz. He did ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Well, did you make application?
Mr. Mills. I made no application ; no, sir.
(At this point Mr. Weltner left the hearing room.)
Mr. HiTZ. Well, did you act as spokesman for the group of people
who became chartered as the Klavern in New Bern ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTz. Did you negotiate with Mr. Jones for the granting by the
Wizard of this charter ?
Mr. Mills. And I will also plead the fifth amendment on that ques-
tion.
Mr. HiTz. You have told us that on and about the date of 4 June,
which is the date of your acceptance of this charter for the Improve-
ment Association, the Craven County Improvement Association, that
you were its exalted cyclops, which is the head man.
Mr. Mills. When that charter was issued, I was ; yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Yes. And were you that up until the 10th of August,
when I think you made some reference to action taken that is reflected
in the minutes ? Were you exalted cyclops ?
Mr. Mills. I believe the minutes states.
The Chairman. The minutes said the 17th. Is that the minutes,
the meeting of the 17th when the decision was made
Mr. Mills. I believe the minutes of that date
The Chairman. — to bum three crosses. You submitted those
minutes.
Mr. Mills. Sir?
The Chairman. I am asking counsel if that is the date he is refer-
ring to.
Mr. HiTz. I am referring to the minutes of the 10th of August,
which is the date that he gave us a while ago.
Mr. Mills. Of '64?
Mr. HiTZ. And I have the minute book here. Yes, of '64.
Mr. Mills. There was an election of officers as the minutes stated.
Mr. HiTz. And is the date correct, the 10th of August ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hrrz. All right, go ahead.
3924 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S.
Mr. Mills. There was an election of new officers, which there was
new officers appointed. I was at that time — up until then, I was ex-
alted Cyclops of the Klavern.
The Chairman. Well, let's go. What happened at that August 10th
meeting ? Were you reelected or reappointed ?
Mr. Mills. I was not reelected. There were new officers elected.
The Chairman. Who were they ?
Mr. Mills. I use the fifth amendment on that. I plead the fifth
amendment.
Tlie Chairman. Don't the minutes show that ?
Mr. Mills. I don't think so.
(At this point Mr. Weltner returned to the hearing room.)
The Chairman. The minutes don't show who was elected?
Mr. Mills. He has them.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Chairman, the minutes of that day do not show.
They do show, however, and I am going to incorporate this into a ques-
tion— I am doing that now, Mr. Mills — it says in here : "The EC," that
is exalted cyclops, of course ; isn't that right ?
Mr. Mills. That is right.
Mr. HiTz [Continues reading:] "said he could no longer serve — his
business took so much of his time." Did you make that statement to
the body ?
Mr. Mills. I did, sir.
Mr. HiTz. What was the business that took so much time?
Mr. Mills. Well, I was working some on the road and I helped my
father, and I also helped my brother some, work.
Mr. HiTz. It goes on: "The Treasurer also resined [sic] and Bill
Ross took his place."
Now was there an election there that made Ross the treasurer and
possibly replaced you? Was there an actual election that night?
Mr. Mills. Well, the minutes speak for themselves.
Mr. HiTZ. But I am asking you the question. I am asking you for
your recollection of whether or not there was an election that night.
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. And you didn't run, evidently.
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. For exalted cyclops.
Mr, Mills. No, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Up to that time, you had served as exalted cyclops by ap-
pointment ; had you ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. You had not been elected at any time ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir. It was temporary.
Mr. HiTZ. And the appointment, I think you told us, was by J. R.
Jones ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What position did J. R. Jones hold, to give him
the authority to appoint you ?
Mr. Mills. Grand Dragon of the State of North Carolina.
The Chairman. Is he still Grand Dragon ?
Mr. Mills. To my best knowledge, he is.
Mr. Pool. Is that Klavern that you belonged to in New Bern, has
it increased in membership or dropped down, or what has happened
to it?
I
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3925
Mr. Mills. I would plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Mills, when I commenced to ask you just now about
the 10th of August, which is the date you gave us a while ago, when
you were mentioning the time that officers were elected, you had in your
hand a paper which appeared to have some typewriting on it, and it is
in the pile of papers you are holding now, and you referred to it as I
was asking the question.
I wonder if you would tell us what that paper is.
Mr. Mills. I will read it to you, if you want me to.
Mr. HiTz. May I see it first, so we can tell whether it has anything
to do with what we are looking into?
Mr. Mills. Wlien you get through with it, I will read it to Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. HiTZ. Thank you.
(Document handed to Mr. Hitz.)
Mr. HiTZ. Well, Mr. Mills, in view of the fact that you have offered
to read this on your own, I won't make it any part of my question, so
that you will be reading this in at your wish.
Mr. Mills. All right. Is it permittable, Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Surely.
Mr. Mills. You want me to read it all, the date and everything
on it?
Mr. Hitz. Since you have offered, it will be helpful to us. It is
right in line.
Mr. Mills. [Reading:] "August 10th, '64. Dear Fellow Klans-
men : In regards to being your EC in the past, let me say I have en-
joyed working with you"
The Chairman. A little louder.
(Mr. Mills. [Continues reading:] "let me say I have enjoyed work-
ing with you and serving the organization as much as anyone. But
with other work that I have to do, it is taking too much of my time up,
and therefore, I recommend that you get someone else tonight for your
new EC and any time I can help any of you all, in paper, or book
work, I will be more than glad to do it. Thanking you all for your past
support, I am."
The Chairman. And that was from yourself ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. It was in the form of a letter of resignation ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. HiTz. Did you again hold office in the Craven County Improve-
ment Association Klavern ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Wliat is the name of that association ?
Mr. Hitz. Craven County Improvement Association.
The Chairman. Can't you tell us what that outfit is ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Is that a social club ?
Mr. Mills. I pled the fifth amendment on the question.
The Chairivian. Is that a hunting lodge, or a meeting place?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on your question as to what
it was.
59-222 O — 67 — pt. 5 29
3926 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
The Chairman. In all frankness, would it be what we call a front
organization for a Klan outfit?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Does it own any property ?
Mr. Mills. I will also plead the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Repeat that name, Counsel.
Mr. HiTZ. Craven County Improvement Association.
The Chairman. It doesn't say incorporated?
Mr. Hrrz. No. No, it does not.
The Chairman. Now you are not a lawyer.
Mr. Mills. Sir?
The Chairman. I know you are not a lawyer and I don't want to
ask you any questions that you couldn't answer, that you can't answer
because you are not a lawyer, but let me ask you this : As a practical
proposition, does an association of this kind, as far as you know, have
to have some kind of a charter or permit from, let's say, the secretary
of the state, or must the association's bylaws or charter be recorded
at the courthouse, to try to use nonlegal words? Do you know what,
the practice is?
Mr. Mills. I do not.
The Chairman. Do you know whether this association has any
foundation paper, charter, bylaws, or whatever, recorded at the local
courthouse in that county ?
Mr. Mills. I would plead the fifth amendment on that. I plead the
fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTz. Actually, Mr. Mills, and I don't think we are getting
beyond the testimony that you gave here, the name "Craven County
Improvement Association" is just a front name or a nickname, or
whatever you want to call it, for a Klan ; is it not ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTz. And doesn't it say right on here that it is a Klan, under
the United Klans, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
The Chairman. Read the sentence, so I can follow it. I have never
read it.
Mr. Hrrz. And doesn't it state this in this fashion, "Whereas, The
Imperial Wizard has received a petition" — and I am going to inter-
rupt now.
Did you not become the spokesman for a petition to accomplish
the issuance of this document here ?
Mr. Mills. I believe I pled the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTz. All right, "Whereas, The Imperial Wizard has received
a petition from the following named Klan of the Invisible Empire,
Craven County Improvement Assoc fiation]" —
Now I am going to ask you again — you have been asked before,
perhaps — if the Craven County Improvement Association just isn't
the front name for that unit of the Klan which is the New Bern Kla-
vern ? Isn't that what the Improvement Association is ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Well, has it done any improving?
Mr. Mills. I plead
The Chairman. Either in social life, or streets or buildings or prop-
erty or esthetic or other areas in the little town of New Bern ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3927
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
The CHAiRMAisr. Isn't it just a plain front?
Mr. Mills. I pled the fifth amendment on your question, Mr. Willis.
Mr. HiTz. Now did you read that paper that you had of a statement
to the body that you couldn't any longer act as exalted cyclops, on the
10th of August 1964, in order to indicate that when these bombings
took place on January 24, 1965, that you were no longer the exalted
cyclops ? Is that what you had in mind when you read that to us?
Mr. Mills. I pled the fifth amendment, on that.
The Chairman. Well, for the record, let me read this reference to, or
identification of, the association we have been referring to from the
charter itself :
To All Who Read and Respect These Lines, Greeting: WHEREAS, The
Imperial Wizard has received a petition from the following named Klan of
the Invisible Empire, Craven County Improvement Assoc [iation]. Prajdng for
themselves and others and their successors to be instituted a Klan of the Order
under the name and number of New Bern Klan No. 33, Realm of North Carolina.
and same to be located at New Bern, in the County of Craven, State of North
Carolina, United States of America, * * *
And you still don't know what improvements this improvement
association engaged in ?
Mr. Mills. I pled the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Yes, I know, but this leads to another question:
Would such things as bombing automobiles be improving a locality ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, on July 16, 1964, the minutes state in part,
"It was brought to our attention about some trouble within the
organization."
What sort of trouble was there ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTz. Were you involved in the trouble ?
Mr. Mnj:.s. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTZ. And on the 3d of August, the minute say in part that
that was "a very poor meeting," only 15 members present.
How many members did the Klavem have ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTz. Did you meet once a week ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. Hrrz. Now it was very shortly after this, less than a month,
where the minute noted trouble, that you in effect resigned as exalted
cyclops, or at least you said you couldn't go on any further with that
position and would like to be relieved of it, and didn't run for office.
Did the trouble noted on July 16 have anything to do with your
decision not to run ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTZ. Was it financial trouble?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that, also.
Mr. Pool. Can you answer this question without taking the fifth
amendment? Who manufactures your robes and your hoods?
Mr. Mills. Mr. Pool, I am going to give you a good answer and 1
am not going to take the fifth amendment.
Mr. Pool. All right.
Mr. Mills. Honest, from my heart, I do not know.
3928 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. All right. 1 won't insist on an answer, because I believe
you on that.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Mills, I have another question I would like to ask
you. You told the staff this morning when we were talking to you,
told me, told Mr. McConnon and myself, that you brought everything
with you that was in your possession or available to you or under your
control that was called for by the subpena, except some Roman candles
that were
Mr. Mills. And some small firecrackers, what we call the lady
crackers. It is one of the smallest you can buy. Strictly for chil-
dren's use.
Mr. HiTz. All right, I see. And that those were, however, seized by
the FBI when they arrested you shortly after the bombing and
were retained by them until turned over to the State solicitor, Mr.
Hamilton ?
Mr. Mills. That's right.
Mr. HiTZ. From whom just recently, and after you were served with
our subpena, you recovered this material ?
Mr. Mills. That's right.
Mr. HiTZ, That is, you recovered what you brought here, plus th-
Roman candles which you did not bring?
Mr. Mills. I did not bring them.
Mr. HiTZ. From Mr. Hamilton, who was holding them to be re-
turned to you?
Mr. Mills. That's right.
Mr. HiTz. Is that right?
Now, was Mr. Hamilton the prosecutor of your State charges for
dynamiting the two automobiles?
Mr. Mills. He was solicitor at the trial ; yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz, Now, how big were these Roman candles that we have
been talking about just now?
Mr. Mills. Well, Mr. Hitz, may I ask a question ? Do you know
what a Roman candle is?
Mr. Hitz. Yes ; I have fired them. Have you ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir; I have shot about a hundred, Christmas.
Mr. Hitz. What size were they ?
Mr. Mills. It is a 10-shot.
Mr. Hitz. Beg pardon ?
Mr. Mills. It is a 10-ball Roman candle, and I would say probably
it is about this long [indicating] .
The Chairman. The witness indicates about how long?
Mr. Hitz. Do it again.
Mr. Mills. I would say approximately 14 or maybe 15 inches long.
The Chairman. That would be the approximation of the distance
between your two hands. You see, the record doesn't reflect.
Mr. Mills. I have never measured one.
The Chairman. I understand. It is just approximating.
Mr. Hitz. Wliat do you have them for ?
Mr. Mills. We shot the — a bunch of them at Christmas, and they
were some I had left over.
Mr. Hnz. Were they any part of cross-burning or any of the other
ceremonies of the Klan ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3929
Mr. Mills. Absolutely not.
Mr. HiTz. Did you explain that to the FBI when they took them
from your house, along with a few other things ?
Mr. Mills. They didn't ask me.
Mr. HiTZ. They didn't?
The Chairman. Let me ask you this, and this has to do with in-
formation, and means of gathering it, concerning the organization of
one Klan organization as compared to another, over the areas where
they exist.
Now you have invoked the fifth amendment to this, but I want to
make a statement. You were charged, and we know that you pleaded
guilty, to the bombing charge. My question is : Were you ordered to
do that by any superior, or was that decision made by you alone, or
was it made at a meeting, or does it take a group of leaders or Klans-
men to order such an action in the Klan to which you belonged ?
Mr. Mills. I will have to plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Pool. A while ago I asked you about the paraphernalia you
wear. You said you didn't know who manufactured it. Without tak-
ing the fifth amendment, can you tell me how these are distributed?
Do they come from the national office or, you know, do you know how
that would work?
Mr. Mills. I would have to plead the fifth amendment on that
question.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, do you know Gordon Jewell?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HQetz. Ked Hardison?
Mr. Mills. Repeat that.
Mr. HiTz. Red Hardison, H-a-r-d-i-s-o-n, or a last name similar to
that.
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that, also.
Mr. HiTz. John Anderson ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that, too.
Mr. HiTZ. Pete Anderson ?
Mr. Mills. And I also plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. Did you know them to be Klan members in New Bern ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you know Darrall Chambler? C-h-a-m-b-1-e-r.
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTz. Or Clinton Willey, W-i-1-l-e-y ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTz. Did you know them to be members of the Klan in Craven
County, your county ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTz. Do you know an organization known as the Craven
County Wliite Citizens Council ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. Pool. Did you bring any pins or rings or other insignia with
you under this subpena?
Mr. Mills. Mr. Pool, I will tell you, like I believe I told Mr. McCon-
non when he served the subpena on me, I returned, when I left office,
let's put it^and in the Klavem, all the papers I had, I turned them in.
I never owned any pins or any rings.
3930 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Pool. You never owned any pins or rings ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir.
Mr. Pool. Are the other members of the Klan, do they have rings
and pins, or were you the only one that didn't have? Is that it?
Mr. Mills. Well, I plead the fifth amendment on what they have.
Mr. HiTz. When did you turn over these pins and rings ?
Mr. Mills. When I left office. I didn't have any pins or rings.
Mr. HiTz. You mean
Mr. Mills. I didn't have anything like that in my possession. No
pins or rings.
Mr. HiTz. On the 10th of August ?
Mr. Mills. That's righ<>-of '64.
Mr. Hjtz. Well, did you turn any over on that day, so you didn't
have them afterwards ?
Mr. Mills. No, sir; I didn't turn any over. I didn't have any.
Mr. HiTz. Well, I thought you answered Mr. Pool that whatever
of this material you had, you turned over.
The Chairman. No. No, in fairness, he said he never owned
Mr. HiTZ. Oh, you never had any.
Mr. Mills. That's ri^ht.
The Chairman. — pms or rings.
Mr. HiTz. Well, I am mistaken on that, and I am corrected.
Mr. Pool. Papers. He said papers. Isn't that what you said?
Mr. Mills. That's right.
The Chairman. What did you turn over ? Let's ask independently.
Mr. Mills. Sir?
The Chairman. What did you turn over to the lodge or the order ?
The group. On August 10th ?
Mr. Mills. I would plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTz. Did you turn anything over on the 10th of August when
you went out of office ?
Mr. Mills. I would plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. Pool. He said a while ago that he turned papers over.
Mr. HiTz. How does it happen, Mr. Mills, that on about the 26th
of January 1965 — now, we are talking about almost 6 months later —
that you were possessed of the minute book of the Klavem ?
Mr. Mills. That minute book is not any good. It is recorded in
another book.
Mr. Hrrz. I see. All right, sir, and how does it happen that the
minute book that I have here and you brought to us and which ends
up in your possession, nevertheless carried these entries up through
the I7th of August, which was 7 days and one meeting after you had
relinquished your office ? How does that occur ?
Mr. Mills. Phrase the question again, Mr. Hitz.
Mr. Hrrz. How does it happen that the book that we have here
has an entry in it which is a full 7 days after you said you relinquished
your job as exalted cy clops ?
Mr. Mills. This book wasn't used into the Klavern but just a short
time. All information on this book was recorded on another book.
This book was just waste material.
Mr. Hitz. Yes, but it records one formal meeting of the l7th of
August by date, and it has three pages or so of entries after that, and
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3931
all after you say you left office. How does it happen that this book
that you say is no good was nevertheless used to make entries on
after you had relinquished your office ?
Mr. Mills. How was it used ?
Mr. HiTZ, No; how does it happen that it was used as a book on
the l7th of August and bears the original minutes in it, and entries
on other pages later than that, and yet you say that the book is useless
and that you turned your office over on the 10th ?
Mr. Mills. That's right.
Mr. HiTz. How does that fit in ?
Mr. Mills. As I stated before, what there was on this book was
transferred to another book.
Mr. HiTz. But it was current before it was transferred; was it not?
Mr. Mills. It was what?
Mr. Hrrz. It was current, it was new, it was original, before it was
transferred on to the new book.
Mr. Mills. The book, may I say, the book hasn't always been in my
possession.
Mr. Hrrz. You mean that
The Chairman. Has not always been in your possession ?
Mr. Mills. That is right.
Mr. Hrrz. You mean that you got it back after the 10th, if you
turned it over on the 10th ?
Mr. Mills. I would say yes.
Mr, Hrrz. But these are the original minutes as of and for the day
August 17, and its meeting. Is that right ?
Mr. Mills. What is recorded in there is the original minutes; yes.
Mr. Hrrz. And then there are entries that are not dated that are
contained on separate pages after that. You were possessed at the
time of your arrest of this original notebook, of original minutes;
right?
Mr. Mills. That was some of the first. The original notebook was
not in my possession, not in 1965.
Mr. HiTz. And how does it happen you were possessed of the very
charter that gave being to the Klavem of which you had been the
exalted cy clops, 6 months later and at the time of your arrest ?
Mr. Mills. How come I was in charge of it ?
Mr. HiTz. No; how come you were possessed of this charter here?
Mr. Mills. That's what I am saying. You want to know how come
it was in my possession.
Mr. HiTz. Still in your possession.
Mr. Mills. I will be glad to answer your question. It fell, and the
glass broke in it, and I took it to Craven Glass Company in New Bern.
Or shall I say, I will phrase that question differently, that I didn't take
it. Another gentleman did, and we had a new glass put in it. And
that's how come it was in my possession at the time.
Mr. HiTZ. Who gave it to you to get repaired for the glass?
Mr. Mills. I take the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Hrrz. And you think that would further incriminate you, now
that you have already said that you took it from them and got it
repaired. And were you holding it for the return to that individual ?
Mr. Mills. I was going to return it back to the gentleman that gave
it to me.
3932 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Hjtz. Now why did they give it to you to get repaired?
Mr. Mills. I don't know.
Mr. HiTz. Is this minute book one of the papers that you have said
you turned over when you gave up office on the 10th of August?
Mr. Mills. Is this minute book one of them that I gave over?
Mr. HiTz. Yes.
Mr. Mills. Yes ; that is some of the literature.
Mr. HiTz. Well, then you must have gotten it back for the writer to
put the minute entry, the original minute entry in it of August 17.
Why did the writer or whomever you gave it to return it to you ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Pool. Are we to assume, then, that you are still the head of the
Klan in New Bern ?
Mr. Mills. I pled the fifth amendment on that.
Let me answer Mr. Pool's question. Can I answer it ?
Mr. Pool. Go right ahead.
Mr. Mills. I believe I took the fifth amendment on your question,
didn't I, Mr. Pool ?
Mr. Pool. If you want to withdraw it, that will be fine.
Mr. Mills. I will withdraw the fifth amendment on Mr. Pool. Mr.
Pool, ask me that question again.
Mr. Pool. Is the committee to assume that you are still the head of
the Klan in New Bern ?
Mr. Mills. I am not head of the Klan of New Bern.
The Chairman. Are you a member of it now ?
Mr. Mills. And I take the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. Pool. Can you explain further and say, do you hold any office
in the Klan in New Bern ? Can you say that ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. Pool. Are we to assume, is the committee to assume that you
then are still an officer of the Klan in New Bern ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. Pool. You withdraw the fifth amendment as to being the head
of it, but now you are invoking the fifth amendment when I ask you
about being an officer ?
Mr. Mills. That's right.
Mr. Pool. In other words, the committee then can assume that you
are an officer of the Klan in New Bern.
Mr. Mills. No ; I plead the fifth amendment on it.
Mr. Pool. I really can't understand why you withdraw the fifth
amendment on the first question, but invoke it on the second question,
but that's your privilege.
Mr. HiTZ. So, Mr. Mills, you have just now told us that you are
not the head of the Klan in New Bern.
Mr. Mills. That's right.
Mr. HiTz. By which I would assume that you mean you are not
the head of the unit, that is, the unit for the New Bern area, which
is the Craven County area — ^that you are not the head of that?
Mr. Mills. I am not a head of the New Bern Klavem.
Mr. HiTz. Eight.
Mr. Pool. You are not the exalted cyclops of the Klan any more?
Mr. Mills. I am not the exalted cyclops of the Klavern.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3933
Mr. HiTz. And New Bern Klavem is the Craven County Improve-
ment Association ; is it not ?
Mr. Mills. I have pled the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. And you have also told us that you would take the fifth
as to whether or not you are even a member of the New Bern
Klavem ?
Mr. Mills. That's ri^ht.
Mr. HiTz. I would like now to ask you, since you are drawing a
line which I am not quite able to follow as to when you answer and
when you take the firth, whether or not at any time you have been
an officer at the State level, that is, at the grand level, in North
Carolina, of this United Klans?
Mr. Mills. You say "an officer." Do you mean holding a position
like the Grand Dragon, or something like that ?
Mr. HiTz. Holding any position, any grand position, any position
at the State, realm, level.
Mr. Mills. State, realm, level. Would that be the exalted cyclops
of the Klavem ? That is the only position
The Chairman. No ; that is the local.
Mr. Hrrz. That would be the county level.
Mr. Mills. That is the only position I have ever held.
Mr. Hjtz. Ever held ?
Mr. Mills. That's right.
Mr. Pool. In other words, that is the only office you have ever held
in the New Bern Klavem ?
Mr. Mills. That's right.
The Chairman. Or in any other chapter or any other oi^anization ?
Mr. Mills. I pled the fifth amendment on that, Mr. Willis.
Mr. Pool. Well, according to your statement, then, he is not an
officer in the New Bern chapter, then. That's what I — the way you
answered it, is thalt the way you want to leave it ?
Mr. Mills. I believe you asked me was I exalted cyclops of the
New Bern Klavem, and I stated I was not. Then you asked me a
question, was I an officer of the organization, did you not? And I
said I plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. Pool. That is right. Then what did you just say a while ago?
Mr. Mills. And what was your question a while ago ?
Mr. Pool. I didn't ask a question. You were answering that ques-
tion.
Mr. Mills. And I believe Mr. Willis asked me a question, do I hold
office in any other organization ; did you not ?
Mr. Pool. Let's have the reporter read that back.
Mr. Mills. All right.
Mr. Pool. I would like to see how he answered it.
(The reporter read from her notes as follows : )
Mr. Pool. You are not the exalted cyclops of the Klan any more?
Mr. Mills. I am not the exalted cyclops of the Klavem.
Mr. HiTz. And New Bern Klavem is the Graven County Improvement Asso^
elation ; is it not?
Mr. Mills. I have pled the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. And you have also told us that you would take the fifth, as to
whether or not you are even a member of the New Bern Klavem?
Mr. Mills. That's right.
3934 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S.
Mr. HiTz. I would like now to ask you, since you are drawing a line which
I am not quite able to follow as to when you answer and when you take the
fifth, whether or not at any time you have been an officer at the State level,
that is, at the grand level, in North Carolina, of this United Klans?
Mr. Mills. You say "an officer." Do you mean holding a position like the
Grand Dragon, or something like that?
Mr. HiTz. Holding any jwsition, any grand position, any position at the State,
realm, level.
Mr. Mills. State, realm, level. Would that be the exalted cyclops of the
Klavern ? That is the only position
The Chairman. No ; that is the local.
Mr. HiTZ. That would be the county level.
Mr. Mills. That is the only position I have ever held.
Mr. HiTz. Ever held?
Mr. Mills. That's right.
Mr. Pool. In other words, that is the only office you have ever held in the
New Bern Klavern ?
Mr. Mills. That's right.
The Chairman. Or in any other chapter or any other organization?
Mr. Mills. I pled the fifth amendment on that, Mr. Willis.
Mr. Pool. The record is fine, as far as I am concerned. That just
answers my question.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, we have some information to the effect that
you have started your own Klan.
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. I hadn't asked the question yet.
Mr. Mills. I thought you had. You stopped talking.
Mr. HiTZ. I was thinking. I do that occasionally.
I say, we have information that you started your own Klan. Is
that true ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that.
Mr. HiTz. Would that fact, if it is true, have anything to do with
the fact that you on the 10th, on the 24th of January 1965, and again
shortly aft«r you were served with this subpena were possessed of the
original minute books of this Craven County Klavern, which books
contained entries of at least one dated meeting after the time w^hen
you say you no longer held any office there at all, and other entries
that don't bear any date at all ?
Mr. Mills. I pled the fifth amendment on that.
The Chairman. Well, at this point, now, his invocation of the fifth
amendment to my question is starting to make sense. So let me ask
you two or three questions.
As I understand, the exalted cyclops is the head officer of the local
Klan organization. That is his name ; is it ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.
The Chairman. Well, I said to you that it is correct, and I said to
you that I know that you know. Now let's quit pussyfooting. You
know that the exalted cyclops is the head officer of a local Klan orga-
nization. Don't you know that ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on the question.
The Chairman. And do you know that as regards statewide offi-
cials, first, the designation is "grand." You have the Grand Dragon,
the Grand Klaliff, those are statewide officials. Isn't that true ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment to that question, too.
The Chairman. Now I asked you a while ago, you having said that
you were not now the exalted cyclops, I honestly understood you to
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3935
be conveying the thought, and I was simply clarifying the record, and
asked you whether you are not now the exalted cyclops, or any other
officer, of that New Bern Klan, and you invoked the fifth amendment
on that. Does that mean that you are now an officer of this new Klan
organization counsel just talked to you about?
Mr. JVIiLLs. I believe I stated I was not the exalted cyclops of the
Klavem.
The Chairman. Pardon ? Let's get that straight.
Mr. Mills. I believe I stated that I was not the exalted cyclops of
the Klavern.
The Chairman. Right.
Mr. Mills. I believe the question followed, did I hold any other
office. And I pleaded the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Well, let me ask you this question: Do you hold
any other office below the exacted cyclops in the New Bern Klan orga-
nization ?
Mr. Mills. I will plead the fifth amendment on that question.
The Chairman. Do you hold any other office in another Klan orga-
nization that you helped to organize recently or in the not too distant
past ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that question, too.
Mr. Pool. Do you hold a State office under Shelton ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Mills, in this same minute book, after a page is
skipped, I notice a much later entry than what I had asked you about
before, and the entry is for 11-8-64, the 8th of November, and it
states : "Meeting of Unit was called to order by E. C, Business was in
order. Donald Bland was voted out of the order by the unit."
Now that would seem to indicate there were some omissions here,
that this was the original minute book, at least on the date of the 8th
of November. Again I would like to know, despite the fact you say
this isn't any good and that it is old and that the entries have been
copied over, I would still like to know how it happens that you re-
mained possessed of this original document at the time that you were
arrested.
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTz. Has any one in the Craven Klan ever attempted to get
from you this original minute book ?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTz. Have you ever refused to deliver over to anyone in the
Klan this original minute book?
Mr. Mills. I plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTz. Wlio was going to pay you, or who did pay you, for the
broken glass that you had replaced in the charter picture that you
have brought to us ?
Mr. MiiJLs. I will plead the fifth amendment on that question.
Mr. HiTZ. I think that's the staff questioning, Mr. Chairman.
Oh, I have one question, please, sir. I do have one question.
Would you look at this and tell us whether any of this is in your
handwriting?
Mr. Mills. Not a bit of it.
The Chairman. What?
3936 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Mills. Not one bit of it.
Mr. HiTZ. That is the staff questioning.
The Chairman. What was his answer ?
Mr. HiTZ. "Not a bit of it."
Mr. Mills. He asked me, was this any of my handwriting, and I
said not any bit of it was my handwriting.
Mr. HiTz. In that minute book.
The Chairman. The Chair has no questions.
Mr. Pool, any questions?
Mr. Pool. No.
The Chairman. Mr. Weltner?
Mr. Weltner. No.
The Chairman. Mr. Buchanan ?
Sir, you will remain under subpena. In other words, the subpena
will remain in effect until October 21, unless you are otherwise notified.
Mr. HiTz. Might I suggest that he be advised that the subpena is
continued until the 21st of October; that is, it has a new return day,
which is the 21st.
The Chairman. That is right. The subpena is now continued and
renewed to and through October 21.
Mr. Mills. It is good up until that date. Is that right, Mr. Willis?
Mr. HiTZ. Well, it calls for his return to Washington on the 21st
of October. That is, we are continuing today's call upon him
The Chairman. Until that time.
Mr. HiTZ. Until October the 21st.
In other words, it compels you to return here, unless otherwise ad-
vised, on October 21. Do you understand, sir ?
Mr. Mills. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is a time necessary ?
Mr. HiTZ. I beg pardon ?
The Chairman. Is a time, an hour, necessary ?
Mr. HiTz. Ten a.m., whatever is the Washington local time at that
time. I think it may be Eastern Standard Time.
Mr. Mills. It is an hour ahead of our time.
The Chairman. Ten a.m. Washingtx)n time, October 21.
All right.
(Whereupon, at 5 :50 p.m., Tuesday, August 24, 1965, the subcom-
mittee recessed, subject to the call of the Chair.)
(Subcommittee members present at time of recess: Representatives
Willis, Pool, Weltner, and Buchanan.)
i
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN ORGANIZATIONS
IN THE UNITED STATES
Part 5
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 6, 1965.
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ B.C.
executive session ^
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities -
met, pursuant to recess, at 10 a.m., in Room 313-A, Camion House
Office Building, Washington, D.C., Hon, Edwin E. Willis (chairman)
presiding.
(Subcommittee members: Representatives Edwin E. Willis, of
Louisiana, chairman ; Joe R. Pool, of Texas ; Charles L. Weltner, of
Georgia; John M. Ashbrook, of Ohio; and John H. Buchanan, Jr.,
of Alabama.)
Subcommittee members present : Representatives Willis, Pool, and
Weltner.
Staff members present : Francis J. McNamara, director ; Donald T,
Appell, chief investigator ; and Philip R. Manuel, investigator.
The Chairman. The subcommittee will please come to order.
This executive hearing is being conducted pursuant to the resolution
of this committee adopted on March 30, 1965, to conduct the investi-
gation of the Ku Klux Klan organizations of America.^
A copy of that resolution has already been placed in the record.
Will you be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Manuel.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. VENABLE
Mr. Manuel. Would you please state your full name for the record ?
Mr. Venable. James R. Venable.
Mr. Manuel. Where do you reside, Mr. Venable?
Mr. Venable. I live at 900 V.F.W. Drive, Stone Mountain, Georgia.
Mr. Manuel. Wlien and where were you born, sir ?
1 Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.
2 For appointment of subcommittee, see page 1527.
3 For. resolution, see pp. 1523, 1524.
3937
3938 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S.
Mr. Venable. I was born in DeKalb County at Lithonia, Georgia,
January 15, 1905.
Mr. Manuel. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Venable. I am attorney at law.
Mr. Manuel. How long have you been an attorney ?
Mr. Venable. I have been practicing law since 1930.
Mr. Manuel. Where did you earn your attorney's degree ?
Mr. Venable. I went to Atlanta Law School in Atlanta, Georgia,
Fulton County.
Mr. Manuel. What is the address of your law office ?
Mr. Venable. Well, it is known as the Walter R. Brown Building;
it is opposite the Fulton County Court. It has two addresses: 1291/^
Pryor Street and IOOI/2 Hunter Street, both of them are Southwest.
Mr. Manuel. Is that the only law office you maintain ?
Mr. Venable. I got a law office out at Tucker, Georgia. That is in
DeKalb County, Georgia.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
Now, Mr. Venable, have you ever been a member of a Ku Klux
Klan organization?
Mr. Venable. Yes, I have been a member of the Knights of the
Ku Klux Klan since 1924.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please identify the organization which
you joined in 1924?
Mr. Venable. Well, I joined the old Colonel Simmons' and Dr.
Evans' Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Manuel. How long did you remain a member of that
organization ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I have been a member of it over since that date.
I have not been an active member, just a dues-paying member, paid
my dues.
Mr. Manuel. Is this the organization that disbanded for all prac-
tical purposes in 1944?
Mr. Venable. I don't know when it disbanded. As soon as it went
out of existence, dissolved the charter, I think Dr. Green started
another one. I was a member of that organization.
Mr, Manuel. Did you hold any office in that organization ?
Mr. Venable. I never did hold any office in the old Klan organiza-
tion, just as a member.
Mr. Manuel. And in that organization, what Klavem did you be-
long to ?
Mr. Venable. AVell, I belonged to several Klaverns. I belonged to
one at Lithonia — I was bom down there. I attended one in East At-
lanta; I attended one, I believe they call it the Wigwam on Central
Avenue, there across back of the Fulton County Courthouse.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
Mr. Venable. I believe they called it the Old 91, I believe. It was
a part of the No. 1 Nathan Bedford Forrest Klan. 91, I think, was
a part of the old No. 1 Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Subsequent to 1944, did you hold membership in an
organization known as the Association of Georgia Klans headed by
one Dr. Samuel Green ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3939
Mr. Venable. I belonged to that organization. I forgot now, I
always called it the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. I know Dr. Green
headed one and I think Sam Roper at one time was the head of it.
I belonged to the one that Mr. Colescott — he took Dr. Evans' place.
He belonged to that when I was.
Mr. Manuel. That was the same organization that was once headed
by Colonel Simmons?
Mr. Venable. Colonel Simmons, Dr. Evans, and Dr. Colescott.
Mr. Manuel. Colescott was the last leader of that particular Klan ^
Mr. Venable. To my knowledge. There could have been some
changes, I don't recall. I didn't take too active a part in it.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
How long did you remain a member of the Klan organization headed
by Dr. Green, the Association of Georgia Klans ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I was in that organization when Dr. Green
died. I knew Dr. Green and I knew his
The Chairman. That was when, about ?
Mr. Venable. Mr. Chairman, I don't know the dates.
The Chairman. How many years, about what date ?
Mr. Venable. I would not even know the year.
The Chairman. Well, could you supply the reference ?
Mr. Manuel. Our records show, Mr. Chairman, that Dr. Green
took the old charter of the old Ku Klux Klan in approximately 1944.
Mr. James Colescott, the last Imperial Wizard of the original Ku
Klux Klan organization, disbanded that organization, Dr. Green took
it up in approximately 1944, and that organization lasted until ap-
proximately 1954, for all intents and purposes.
The Chairman. Was that about when the gentleman died?
Mr. Manuel. He died prior to that date, and the leadership was
assumed by one Samuel Roper, a policeman in Atlanta.
The Chairman. Well, his own connection, did you say, terminated
upon the death of the doctor ?
Mr. Venable. No, when Dr. Green died, I believe Mr. Roper, one
of our former detectives in Atlanta, took over, and I believe maybe
assisted. Maybe at one time, a short while, a fellow named Chuck Klein
was connected with it, I don't know in what capacity. I never did at-
tend their office.
Mr. Manuel. Subsequent to your membership in Dr. Green's asso-
ciation, the Association of Georgia Klans, did you hold membership
in any other Ku Klux Klan organization ?
Mr. Venable. You mean along that period of time ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Venable. No, I didn't hold any other. As I say, I was just a
member and paid my dues. I didn't attend any regular meetings, I
didn't have time.
Mr. Manuel. Have you ever been a member of the Ku Klux Klan
organization known as the U.S. Klans headed by one Eldon Edwards?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir. I was a member of that. I believe Edwards
took it over after Mr. Roper and maybe Chuck Klein.
I believe he chartered that some time in 1956, 1957, along there.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, was the U.S. Klans headed by
Mr. Edwards, a splinter group of the Association of Georgia Klans
which was first headed by Dr. Green ?
3940 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Venable. Well, I would say it was the remnants of Dr. Green
and maybe the others. It originally belonged to the old Klan.
Mr. Manuel, Sir, to the best of your recollection, when did you
first join the U.S. Klans ?
Mr. Venable. Well, shortly; I don't know offhand. I could not
state.
Mr. Manuel. Approximately.
Mr. Venable. Maybe around 1957, 1958, sometime. During Mr.
Kdwards' period in which he was Imperial Wizard. He approached
me to come down to Stone Mountain, he and a man by the name of Earl
George who was wanting to use the property there at Stone Mountain
which joins the mountain property that originally was owned — the
mountain property — by the Venable Brothers, wanted to use it for
what they call a rally.
Mr. Manuel. Wliat is the relation of Venable Brothers to yourself?
Mr. Venable. Well, Venable Brothers and my father was a part of
the old Venable firm. They owned the mountain since about 18 — maybe
'68 or '72, along there, consisted of several of the brothers.
Mr. Manuel. I see. So that Stone Mountain, the traditional home
of all Ku Klux Klan organizations, is owned by your family, or was
owned ?
Mr. Venable. Was owned. It was owned at the time the old Klan
was — I mean when I speak of the old Klan, 50 years. The Klan was
reborn on top of Stone Mountain on November 9, 1915.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
Now, before we develop further into your association with the U.S.
Klans, let me ask you : Were you ever a member of an organization
known as the Federated Klans in the period 1949, 1950?
Mr. Venable. I was only connected with them a short while. Mr.
Hugh Morris, I believe, headed them. I had nothing to do with or-
ganizing it ; I was not an officer of it.
Mr. Manuel. You did not hold any office in that organization; is
that right, sir ?
Mr. Venable. Other than a delegate.
Mr. Manuel. How long did you remain a member of that organi-
zation ?
Mr. Venable. Oh, just a short while, not too long, you know, be-
cause it disintegrated, you might say, dissolved, or quit functioning, I
was also at that time a member of the U.S. Kjiights of the Ku Klux
Klan which was headed by Mr. Edwards as well as Mr. George.
Mr. Manuel. We will develop that right now, sir. While a member
of the U.S. Klans, which you stated your membership started approxi-
mately 1957, is that correct, sir?
Mr. Venable, Something like that, I would not know.
Mr. Manuel. All right. While you were a member of that organi-
zation, did you hold an office ?
Mr, Venable. Well, I was only as an attorney you know ; they call
that the imperial officer.
Mr. Manuel. What is the exact title of the Klonsel ?
Mr. Venable. Well, the Imperial Klonsel, K-l-o-n-s-e-1. Lawyer,
that is really the meaning.
Mr. Manuel. How did you get that position, sir ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S. 3941
Mr. Venable. Well, Mr. Edwards appointed me that position as
well as Mr. George. He succeeded Mr. Edwards for a period after he
died with a fellow named Davidson and I was the Klonsel under him.
He headed that organization for a short period of time. Lee David-
son, I believe is his name.
Mr. Manuel. I see. In other words, you were appointed to the
position of Klonsel rather than elected ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, appointed by the Imperial Wizard or president.
Mr. Manuel. Sir, to your knowledge, is that appointment in accord-
ance of the constitution of the U.S. Klans ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I never read the constitution of the U.S. Klans.
I may have glanced at it, but I would not recall ; I could have. I un-
derstood it was adopted practically along the same line as the old
1922 constitution written by Colonel Simmons.
Mr. Manuel. I see. Did you have any connection with the draw-
ing up of either the charter or the constitution of the U.S. Klans?
Mr. Venable. I had nothing to do whatsoever with drawing the
charter of the U.S. Klans.
The Chairman. Now the charter was granted — the charter was
granted, I suppose.
Mr. Venable. In Fulton County.
The Chairman. Pursuant to Georgia law.
Mr. Venable. Yes, I think Dr. Green's son, a young lawyer, repre-
sented the Klan for a short period before his death.
Mr. Manuel. As Imperial Klonsel of U.S. Klans, would you please
describe your duties ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I was only asked for advice, you know, giving
them legal advice and when they had any kind of litigation. I recall
one litigation we had out in DeKalb County, a civil matter which
there was some question about their rights to use the courthouse or
the premises of the DeKalb County Courthouse.
I think one or two of the commissioners objected to them using the
grounds, and we were not in accord and went into court. And the
court ruled in Mr. Edwards' favor, and they were permitted to use
their outside premises of the courthouse.
The Chairman. The grounds ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, the grounds, not inside the court. In the square.
Mr. Pool. Maybe I was not paying attention but I didn't get that.
What was the reason?
Mr. Venable. Well, some of the county commissioners objected to
it. One, Mr. Jim Bowen, I recall.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Who?
Mr. Venable. Mr. Jim Bowen. He was the county commissioner
there, one of the county commissioners there.
Mr. Pool. Did anybody else object besides him ?
Mr. Venable. I don't know. I didn't appear before the county
commissioners. I know he was the main opposition in the lawsuit.
Mr. Pool. He was objecting to the Klans' views?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, as Imperial Klonsel of the U.S. Klans,
did you sit on the Imperial Board of that organization ?
59-222 O— 67— pt.
3942 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLTJX KLAN EST THE U.S.
Mr. Venable. I may have occasionally, you know, sit. I don't
recall any particular time. I did sit once or twice during the Davidson,
he held it a short while after Edwards did, and maybe two or three
times under Mr. Earl George, who succeeded Davidson.
Mr. Manuel. How long did you remain the Imperial Klonsel for
U.S. Klans?
Mr. Venable. Well, 1 guess several years until they split up, you
know. It was split up.
Mr. Manttejl. What was the date of that split?
Mr. Venable. That I could not tell you, you know, offhand. The
dates I don't recall. I remember the occasion. They were present —
when I say "they," they met in a Klavem at Northside Drive and
Marietta Street and there was some dispute there arose in the Klavem
between some of the Klansmen and officials
Mr. Manuel. I see. We will develop that.
Mr. Venable. — concerning the conduct of Davidson or his criti-
cism of what was called splinter groups.
Mr. Manuel. I see. While you were a member of U.S. Klans, did
you have occasion to meet Robert Shelton ?
Mr. Venable. I met Mr. Shelton for the first time to know him
personally, I may have seen him, but to know him personally I met
him in Montgomery, Alabama, at a litigation where I went down
to represent the U.S. Klans and to represent the Federated Klans
there in an injunction brought in Federal court there. Judge Johnson
presiding, a Federal district court judge.
I represented those two groups. I met Mr. Shelton in the hotel
there with his attorney. I believe he represented Alabama Klans, the
head of the Alabama Klans, I believe,
Mr. Manuel. Did you know him to be a member of U.S. Klans
at that time ?
Mr. Venable. No ; I don't think he was a member. I never heard
of him, but he could have been a member. I understood he was a
member at one time under Mr. Edwards.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
Mr. Venable. At the time I went there it was not under Edwards'
jurisdiction.
The Chairman. Edwards died about that time ?
Mr. Venable. Sir ?
The Chairman. Edwards had died about that time ?
Mr. Venable. Mr. Edwards died several years ago.
The Chairman. Do I recall that was in 1961, about ?
Mr. Manuel. 1960, sir. Mr. Edwards died in the year 1960.
Mr. Venable, to your direct knowledge, was Robert. Shelton ex-
pelled from the U.S. Klans on a charge of misappropriation of funds?
Mr. Venable. Well, now, my knowledge is based on hearsay.
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Venable. I don't know whether it to be truth other than what
I was told by Mr. Edwards.
The Chairman. It is permissible for you to state.
Mr. Venable. I was told by Mr. Edwards as well as Mr. George
that he was expelled or released from that organization by reason
of the fact he would not report. He would collect money and send
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3943
in his monthly reports. Sums of money was raised in the State of
Alabama.
Also Mrs. Edwards told me; she is still alive, she lives in Atlanta.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, what did Mr. Shelton do, to the best
of your knowledge, after he was expelled from the U.S. Klans?
Mr. Venable. Well, I understood he organized what is known as the
Alabama Klans. I don't know whether that was a corporation or not.
I know it was made a party of this litigation in the Montgomery Fed-
eral court.
The Chairman. By the way, what was that litigation about?
Mr. Venable. It was concerning the "freedom riders bus," the trou-
ble there in Birmingham and maybe started up at Anderson, maybe
went on into Montgomery, Alabama. They brought certain injunc-
tions, the Government did, against certain members of the Klan, cer-
tain corporations as well as individual, I believe, police officers.
I believe the State of Alabama there, I have forgotten the city, one
or two, maybe Montgomery police, Birmingham police, chiefs, I
believe.
Mr. Manuel. Did you act as attorney for one of the defendants in
that trial, Mr. Venable ?
Mr. Venable. I acted as attorney for the Federated Klans. That
was the Klan headed by Mr. Hugh Morris and the U.S. Klans at that
time, Mr. Earl George had headed it.
Mr. Manuel. What was the result of that trial ?
Mr. Venable. Well, they heard evidence there for several days.
I heard no evidence involving my clients, but nevertheless the judge
granted an injunction restraining the parties of the corporation, offi-
cials and individuals, from interfering in any manner with interstate
movement of these buses and interference with their rights to use the
terminal facilities, and so forth.
The Chairman. Then known as the freedom riders?
Mr. Venable. Well, they called it the freedom riders bus.
The Chairman. That was the incident popularly referred to.
Mr. Venable. Yes. It was interference with them as I understood,
individuals as well as police officers.
Mr. Manuel. Now to the best of your recollection, Mr. Venable,
how many Klan groups were involved in that trial and would you
please identify the groups to the best of your memory ?
Mr. Venable. Well, to the best of my memory, I got it filed at the
office, the Federated Klans is named a party, maybe some individuals,
I don't recall at the time. The U.S. Klans was named, it may have
been some individuals.
Shelton's group, I don't know whether it was a corporation. As
I understood it was the Alabama Klans. I believe at that time they
may have been the Dixie Klans. They operated in Alabama as well
as Tennessee. They may have been a party, several individuals.
The Chairman. Who generally was regarded as the leadership of
the Dixie Klans at that time?
Mr. Venable. A fellow by the name of Brown they called him, the
Brown brothers. I don't know, may be one or two.
The Chairman. Where was that Klavern?
3944 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Venable. The Brown brothers lived in Chattanooga, Tennessee,
but I think they may have had some chapters or Klavems in the State
of Alabama.
I understood that, but I don't know to be sure.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, the groups you just named, were they
the main Klan groups, to the best of your knowledge, at that time?
Mr. Venable. To the best of my knowledge, they were the main
Klan groups, a bunch of individuals. I believe the chief of police or
safety director, maybe individual policemen, and maybe the city may
have been named, I don't know.
Mr. Manuel. Aren't you speaking now of the Klan groups named?
Mr. Venable. The Klan groups. I don't know whether Dixie and
some of its members may have been involved ; I don't know whether
they were personally, they could have been. I have the file in my
office, and there is a record down there who was involved in Mont-
gomery.
Mr. Manuel. I see. Now to get back to your membership in the
U.S. Klans, while a member of that organization, did you have occa-
sion to know Calvin Fred Craig?
Mr. Venable. Well, I met Calvin Craig, yes, in the U.S. Klans.
Mr. Manuel. Could you give the approximate date of your first
meeting with Calvin Craig ?
Mr. Venable. Well, the first knowledge that I knew of Craig was
after the fellow by the name of, I believe Lee Davidson, took over
after Edwards' death.
That is the first time I met Craig to know him personally. I had
heard of him.
Mr. Manual. Approximately what year was that, sir ?
Mr. Venable. That, I don't know.
Mr. Manuel. All right. At the time of your first meeting, did you
know Calvin Craig to be a member of the U.S. Klans ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I had never met him to my knowledge. I
could have, but I don't recall.
Mr. Manuel. Well, did you subsequently know him to hold an offi-
cial position within the U.S. Klans?
Mr. Venable. I knew after Davidson took over he was elected, or I
guess by appointment, the Grand Dragon of Georgia under the old
U.S. Klans.
Mr. Manuel. Did I understand you to say he was appointed as the
Grand Dragon ?
Mr. Venable. I don't know how he got his authority, who elected
him or whether the Imperial Wizard appointed him. That, I don't
know.
Mr. Manuel. Then I understand you to say you did not have any
official capacity in getting Mr. Craig?
Mr. Venable. No, not having anything to do with his election.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
Mr. Venable. Of how he was appointed.
Mr. Manuel. I see. Subsequent to that, sir, did you know that
Mr. Craig left the U.S. Klans ?
Mr. Venable. Well, as I stated before, he and Mr. Davidson pulled
out or resigned on the occasion that we met out at Marietta and
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3945
Northside Drive. I believe it was a Friday night, I don't know the
date or year it was.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your recollection, Mr. Venable, could
you give the committee the circumstances under which Mr. Craig left ?
Mr. Venable. Well, he and Mr. Davidson left or resigned on that
occasion out there. Mr. George and myself jumped on him about
talking so much and criticizing other Klan groups and referring to
them as splinter groups.
Mr. Manuel. Was there any question of money involved in Mr,
Craig's lea\dng the U.S. Klans?
Mr. Venable. I believe there may have been some question about
some money. Now I don't know. I had nothing to do with any of
the financing or who got it or where it went.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your knowledge, were charges brought
against Mr. Craig by the leaders of the U.S. Klans regarding financial
transaction ?
Mr. Venable. That, I don't know. They could have. You see, I
didn't get involved in much of the discussions. I know there was
some discussion about Davidson going short, you know. I may have
some of the records there after Mr. George took over. There could
have been some shortage there. I knew there was some discussion
about some of the properties. A little old mimeograph or printing
machine disappeared, Davidson had carried it to Macon and maybe
mortgaged it for some debt there,
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your recollection, Mr. Venable, could
you tell the conmiittee what happened to the organization known as
U.S. Klans after Mr. Davidson and Mr. Craig left that organization?
Mr. Venable. After Davidson and Craig left the organization, Mr.
George was appointed.
The CiiAiKMAN, What is his full name?
Mr. Venable. E. E. George. He is known as Earl George, lives at
Lithonia, Georgia, He had been in the Klan at the same time I went
in, in 1924, I have known him all my life.
He took over, Mr. George did, and operated the Klan for maybe
2 years.
Mr. Manuel. This was after Mr. Davidson left?
Mr. Venable, Yes, I was associated with him, that is as a lawyer.
Mr. Manuel. I see. What happened to the membership of the U.S.
Klans after Mr. Davidson and Mr. Craig left?
Mr. Venable. A great number of them, in particular, those in Ala-
bama, lots of them in Georgia, went with Craig and Shelton. I think
Shelton and Craig went in together.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
To the best of your knowledge, was their merger the start of the
organization known today as the United Klans of America?
Mr, Venable, I think after they got together as T recall it, I believe
they got a charter in Fulton County known as the United Klans,
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, or some words to that effect,
Mr, Manuel. Now, Mr. Venable, have you ever held membership in
that organization, that is, the United Klans?
Mr. Venable. I held a membership in that organization as a lawyer
a short while, not too long, and also as a member.
3946 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S.
The Chairman. On the imperial level ?
Mr. Venable. Yes. The lawyers are on the imperial level, Your
Honor, called the Imperial Klonsel.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. We will develop that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Venable, would you please give the circumstances under which
you joined, or became a member of, the United Klans?
Mr. Venable. Well, they asked me, you know, to act as their law-
yer, knowing that I had been in the Klan quite a while and connected
with it.
The Chairman. By "they," you mean substantially Craig and
Shelton?
Mr. Venable. Craig. I don't know Shelton. As I say, I met
Shelton at this litigation for the first time. I didn't know too much
about Shelton.
Mr. Manuel. After you became a member of the United Klans, did
you meet with Kobert Shelton ?
Mr. Venable. I met with him maybe on two or three occasions.
Mr. Manuel. Did you attend meetings of the Imperial Board of
the United Klans?
Mr. Venable. I may have attended one or two, to my knowledge,
but during that period of time, there was another organization known
as the Association of Ku Klux Klan where the various organizations
would meet every so often, maybe every 3 or 4 months.
Mr. Manuel. Did you have a concurrent membership in that organ-
ization along with United Klans ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I had gone there. They would rotate — maybe
meet one time in Florida, maybe one time in South Carolina, maybe
one time in Alabama and Georgia.
Mr. Manuel. I see. We will examine that organization in depth
a little bit later.
The Chairman. At this point, just for the record, could you estab-
lish about the year when Craig and Shelton left and formed the
United Klans?
Mr. Venable. No, sir.
The Chairman. It would be in the sixties, would it not? It had
to be.
Mr. Venable. Well, it would probably be in the sixties. A charter
was granted to it in Fulton County. I don't know what date it was
granted. I didn't handle that litigation.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, the investigation conducted by this
committee can establish that the organization which Mr. Venable is
speaking of was granted a charter in Fulton County, Georgia, in
February of 1961.
The Chairman. 1961.
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And it had been incorporated and had a charter
in Alabama probably before ?
Mr. Manuel. No, sir. There were two separate organizations
which merged and formed the new organization wh^ch was granted
that charter in February 1961 in Fulton County, Georgia.
The Chairman. All right.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3947
Mr. Manuel. And those two separate organizations then became
the United Klans.
The CHArRMAN-. I see.
Now the Association of Ku Kux Klans, that was an overall associa-
tion to which the leadership of various Klan groups belonged; sub-
stantially, is that about it ?
Mr. Venable. They would meet, discuss their problems, you know.
They were not connected, one or the other had nothing to do with the
internal operation of the other one. They would meet and discuss
problems.
The Chairman. Common problems of the Klan ?
Mr. Venable. Common problems there. It started off where they
were allowed three delegates from each Klan organization regardless
of how small or how large. They would rotate in different States.
The chairman of that State would act, if it was in Georgia, who they
might elect at a meeting in Alabama or Florida or South Carolina.
They would meet every so often.
Mr. Manuel. Now, Mr. Venable, was the United Klans of America
ever a member of the Association of Klans ?
Mr. Venable. It was a member of that Association of Klans for a
short period of time, to my knowledge. Maybe they met once or twice
with it or maybe two or three times. I remember one time they met,
I believe in Florida, Tallahassee, or one of the cities there; I was
present.
Mr. Manuel. Who were the delegates from United Klans on that
occasion ?
Mr. Venable. I believe Mr. Bob Thompson may have been one and
I don't know whether Craig was. There may have been a fellow named
Neuberger, all three of them.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
Mr. Venable. I was not chairman at that time.
Then I met with them in Alabama, I believe Centreville or some
town there, they met one Sunday. I was present at that occasion
there.
Mr. Manuel. But they did at one time hold membership in the
association ?
Mr. Venable. They did for a short period of time hold membership
there.
Mr. Manuel. Why did they discontinue that membership ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I don't know. They dropped out of there, and
I understood that Shelton sent a message, I don't remember. I was
acting as chairman in the Dinkier Plaza Hotel. That is Dinkier Plaza
Hotel in Atlanta and maybe the Robert Fulton Hotel. I met there
once or twice with them.
I believe Mr. Thompson, either a fellow named Anderson from
Tennessee, one of their alleged delegates, made the statement that
Shelton did not want to participate, that there might be a conspiracy
among the Klan groups. That was his excuse.
Mr. Manuel. Aconspiracy in what form, sir?
Mr. Venable. Well, I don't know. I mean he just said a conspiracy
if something happened there.
The Chairman. Would it be a conspiracy on the part of Shelton
to take over ?
3948 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Venable. I don't know what he meant by conspiracy, you know.
He just made that statement on the floor.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, at the time of this meeting, what was
your position in the association ?
Mr. Venable. I was maybe a delegate, I don't know. I may have
been from Federated, I may have been from the U.S., you know, the
short period I was in it.
The Chairman. As a lawyer, do you recall — and I have no knowl-
edge of this at all — whether perhaps the question of fear of conspiracy
or expressions about the word conspiracy had to do with some feeling
that amalgamation or association of various groups would involve liti-
gation with the Federal Government?
Mr. Venable. Well, I would take it that way, Your Honor. I mean,
he may have. The gentleman on the floor didn't say what he meant
by a conspiracy. I know what a conspiracy is from a criminal stand-
point and a civil standpoint, but that was the message he conveyed
there. I don't know what he meant.
The Chairman. Yet he conveyed that conspiracy somehow to
Shelton.
Mr. Venable. They had dropped out, they did not want to partici-
pate with this group on that ground. That was his excuse.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, is this association currently in existence?
Mr. Venable. Yes, that association has been in existence since
probably maybe i960 or 1961 or 1962.
Mr, Manuel. And it is in existence at the present time ?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. What is your position in that association as of this
date?
Mr. Venable. Let me go back just a short period there.
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Venable. I was a delegate either in the U.S. there for a short
period or Federated when it rotated around over the States at meet-
ings. Now the Klan or association meets at Tucker, Georgia, DeKalb
County, it don't rotate. Since it has met there for approximately a
year and a half or 2 years, I have been elected as temporary chairman,
you know, just temporary chairman. I have no vote in the policy-
making.
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir ; we will explore that in just a little while.
The Chairman. Well, at this point for the sake of chronology, who
would belong to that present association, what Klan groups, as you can
recall ?
Mr. Venable. Well, to my knowledge, the Florida Klan, I don't
know what they call it, whether it is a corporation.
There are two Klan groups in the State of Louisiana ; I don't know
their names, you know. I know some of the leaders there.
There is a group from the State of South Carolina headed — I don't
know whether he is Imperial Wizard, he is one of the leaders, Mr.
.Robert Hodges.
The Florida Klan, I don't know whether that is a corporation or
whether it is an association.
The Chairman. Shelton's group is not active?
Mr. Venable. Shelton's group has not been a member for several
years.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3949
Mr. Manuel. Is Mr. Shelton's group of United Klans eligible for
membership in the association ?
Mr. Venable. No. Since I have been temporary chairman and for
a year or so prior to that time, the association would not accept them
for the simple reason that they said they would do things that they
didn't approve of. They would go over in a State and have a rally in
the back door of another Klan organization and would not extend
them any courtesy to participate in it. They would go in robes and
picket maybe places of business which the National Association didn't
approve of. In the robe now.
Now if they picketed as an indivdual without a robe, they had no
fault with them. That was their excuse.
Mr. Manuel. In other words, Mr. Venable, do I understand you to
say that the association regards Mr. Shelton's group as practicing
unethical recruiting methods ?
Mr. Venable. Well, that is what they classified unethical recruiting
and, too, for the last year or two, they have brought a lot of embar-
rassment to all of the Klan organizations by this thing in Athens,
Georgia. I don't know whether these gentlemen are guilty or not.
Mr. Manuel. Are you referring to the murder of I^muel Penn ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, and the Alabama episode down there, this white
lady who was alleged to have been killed by some of those Klansmen.
Mr. Manuel. And that would have been the murder of Mrs. Viola
Liuzzo ?
Mr. Venable. Yes. That is embarrassing to the leaders and the
leaders of the Klan groups. That has caused us a lot of criticism over
which we have no bearing or have no control.
Mr. Manuel. Have the other members of your association, Mr.
Venable, implicated or discussed the United JKlans of America or
Robert Shelton being a participant in these incidents ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, we discussed it on many occasions there when it
was in session. Things like that has caused a lot of embarrassment
to all of us.
Mr. Manuel. Could you explain further to the committee what those
discussions entailed involving United Klans ?
Mr. Venable. As I stated before, the association has urged against
any type of violence or any type of picketing in a Klan robe of any
group whatsoever, you know. They don't believe in that.
Mr. Manuel. Has your association discussed any specific act of
violence in which allegedly Mr. Shelton's group was a participant?
Mr. Venable. Well, we have discussed the Athens, Georgia, epi-
sode, that alleged killing there, as well as the Alabama episode.
Mr. Manuel. Wliat was the conclusion of the association regarding
that particular incident ?
Mr. Venable. That it should not be tolerated, and it was embar-
rassing to all of us, but we could not do anything about it. I made an
effort, I was delegated myself, along with two others, to meet with
Shelton and try to discuss these things, but he never would meet with
us.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
Mr. Venable. I had not communicated directly because I had Mrs.
Foster to call him, and he promised to meet with me where I could
discuss these things with him and he never did.
3950 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel,. Would you please identify Mrs. Foster ?
Mr. Venable. Mrs. J. M. Foster.
Mr. Manuel. Is she also known as Granny Foster ?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. What connection does she have ?
Mr. Venable. She heads the ladies group which I head.
Mr. Manuel. What connection does she have with Mr. Shelton ?
Mr. Venable. None whatsoever.
Mr. Manuel. But she did make the call for you ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, she made the call. She told me she did and I
am sure she did, and he promised to meet with us.
Mr. Manuel. Wliat investigation did your association make re-
garding the Penn murder ?
Mr. Venable. Well, we made no investigation because we felt that
the law enforcement officers made that investigation. We only based
our findings and our discussion on the newsprint.
Mr. Manuel. I see. Specifically, how did you determine that Mr.
Shelton's group had participated in some way in this incident?
Mr. Venable. Well, they named certain individuals, the paper did,
who were alleged to belong to some unit over there and some Klavern
over there.
Mr. Manuel. At this point, do you remember the names of those
individuals?
Mr. Venable. No, I don't oflfhand.
Mr. Manuel. At the time you heard these news releases, did you
know the individuals so named to be members of the United Klans?
Mr. Venable. Well, I might know the faces, but the name didn't
register with me. You see, a lot of Klansmen know me and I know
a lot of their faces, but very few I know by name.
Mr. Manuel. Was it the conclusion of your association that Robert
Shelton's group was involved in this incident ?
Mr. Venable. Well, yes, sir; from what we could learn by talking
to people and by the newsprint.
Mr. Manuel. All right.
Now that is the incident of Colonel Penn's murder ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Now regarding the murder of Mrs. Liuzzo, was any
investigation conducted by your association regarding the involve-
ment or alleged involvement of the United Klans in that incident ?
Mr. Venable. No, sir ; we made no investigation because we didn't
want to interfere and because it would be bad for us to interfere in
the enforcement of the law and in the investigation. We have no
facilities to make such an investigation and no money. We have no
money to do such things.
Mr. Pool. Did you discuss the matter in your meeting ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, we discussed it.
Mr. Pool. Could you tell us a little bit about that ?
Mr. Venable. Well, we talked on several occasions about it, you
know, how embarrassing it was that we would be criticized about
the conduct of some other Klan organization which we had no juris-
diction over.
Mr. Pool. With respect to who might have been involved and things
like that?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S. 3951
Mr. Venable. No, sir ; other than we just read the names. I read
the names of those alleged to have been involved. We understood
they were connected with the United Klans there in Alabama.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, with further regard to the Penn murder,
did your association establish subsequent to that murder that the
defendants in the case were members of the United Klans ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I knew they were members because I went to
Athens, Georgia, and talked to a lawyer — I have forgotten his name,
he is a reputable lawyer there ; he was first hired to represent maybe
one or two of them. I believe somebody called me about representing
them and I went over there to his office and met with him and I learned
that they were Klansmen involved.
Mr. Manuel. Was this prior to the trial ?
Mr. Venable. Prior to the trial ; yes, sir. That is my source of in-
formation there, too.
Mr. Manuel. And specifically how did you learn that they were
Klansmen ?
Mr. Venable. Somebody called my office and wanted me to go over
there and talk to them.
Mr. Manuel. How did you find out that they were Klansmen?
Mr. Venable. Well, I went over there and talked to the lawyer there
in Athens, Georgia. I believe his name is Van G. Hawkins. He was
alleged to have been going to be representing maybe one or two of them.
I don't think he did represent them ; he may have. I don't know. He
never did get up any money and never did employ me, and that is the
reason I didn't participate.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Hawkins identify these individuals, these
defendants, as members of the United Klans of America at that time ?
Mr. Venable. He said they were Klansmen; he didn't state what
organization they belonged to.
Mr. Manuel. Did you determine what organization they did belong
to?
Mr. Venable. Yes; I understood from my information they did
belong to the U.S .
Mr. Manuel. The U.S.?
Mr. Venable. I mean the old United Klans.
Mr. Manuel. The United Klans ?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Sir, what was the source of your information regard-
ing this particular ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I know to my own personal knowledge no other
Klan organization had a ^^nit there in Athens other than the United
Klans unit.
Mr. Manuel. Now regarding the Liuzzo murder in Alabama, like-
wise did your association conduct an investigation as to the participa-
tion or aileged participation of United Klans into that incident?
Mr. Venable. No. We didn't. As I say, we have no facilities to
make an investigation. All our sources is from the newsprint and
news media.
Mr. Manuel. However, you did mention the killing in Alabama of
Mrs. I 'uzzo as one of the reasons that your association refuses to
recognize Robert Shelton's organization.
3952 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. VENABL.E. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Could you please explain to the committee why the
association took that action or holds that position ?
Mr. Venable. Well, the Klan as a whole, and I am speaking of the
ones that I am connected with in any minor
Mr. Manuel. I am speaking specifically now of the Liuzzo incident
just as we explored the Penn incident.
Mr. Venable. Those delegates from those various Klans that I
have mentioned there, they felt that if these men had participated in
such a crime they should be tried and convicted because it is embar-
rassing to me as well as all of them.
(At this point Representative Buchanan entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Manuel. Did any of the members of the association raise the
possibility that the United Klans had planned either or both of these
killings?
Mr. Venable. No, sir ; they didn't go into that field of it because to
my knowledge none of them knew anything about any plan being
made because, as I say, we are far apart, the ones in which I am con-
nected with and those of Shelton's group. We have very little to do
with each other.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
Now does your association then regard the United Klans of Amer-
ica, headed by Robert Shelton, to be a violent type organization ?
Mr. Venable. We have come to the conclusion that that organiza-
tion should not exist because of the methods and the things that it
has been involved in.
Mr. Manuel. Specifically, sir, could you explain to the committee
the methods to which you refer ?
Mr. Venable. Well, as I say, the alleged Penn killing as well as the
Alabama thing, as well as some of those that participated in the free-
dom riders episode down there, as you called it.
The Chairman. Were there bombing episodes that were discussed
also?
Mr. Venable. I never heard anybody discuss anything about — we
have never had any knowledge, that is, any firsthand knowledge, as
to any Klan participated either in that group or any other group there
of any type of bombing, to my knowledge. I never heard it discussed
by the delegates from the various Klan organizations.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, this point having been raised, I would
like to ask you at this point if you are acquainted with a gentleman
named Jesse Benjamin Stoner?
Mr. Venable. I know him as J. B. Stoner. I have always known
him as J. B. Stoner, not Jesse.
Mr. Manuel. Do you possess any knowledge regarding Mr, Stoner's
alleged involvement in the bombing incident which occurred in Bir-
mingham, Alabama ?
Mr. Venable. Nothing other than what I read from the newsprint.
Of course, the association would never recognize him or I don't know
whether he heads any Klan or not, they would turn a deaf ear and let
him be a member of the association of the Klans.
Mr, Manuel. Did you ever know him to be a member of any Klan
organization ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3953
Mr. Venable. Well, not to my personal knowledge, other than what
he told me. He told me at one time he is connected with a Klan up in,
I believe, Chattanooga, I don't know in what capacity. I have heard
that he at one time was connected with what is known as the Chi-istian
Knights of the Kn Klux Klan, or the Christian Knights.
(At this point Mr. Pool left the hearing room. )
Mr. Manuel. Further regarding Mr. Stoner, do you possess any
knowledge regarding Mr. Stoner's alleged involvement in the xVtlanta
temple bombing in 1958 ?
Mr. Venable. No, I know nothing about him being involved in it.
I have known him for a number of years.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
Mr. Venable. He is a fellow that does not discuss his problems with
me or any other person.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, do you know Mr. Stoner within any
Klan group to be known by the nickname of "Bomber" Stoner?
Mr. Venable. I have never heard that mitil you mentioned it to me
here yesterday or the day before. That is news to me.
Mr. Manuel. You have no knowledge of that ?
Mr. Venable. No, I never heard that being used before.
Mr. Manuel. I see. Are there any other incidents of violence which
were discussed in your association with regard to possible participation
by the United Klans of America other than the Liuzzo and Pemi
murders ?
Mr. Venable, Well, this is based on hearsay evidence. In Atlanta,
before the Civil Rights Act was passed, there were some few incidents,
I don't know whether there were any cases made or not, which it is
alleged that they participated in some type of picketing some of the
cafes around Atlanta there.
The Chairman. With robes ?
Mr. Venable. Sir?
The Chairman. In robes?
Mr. Venable. Well, I notice they did picket Rich's in robes one
time, you know, before the civil rights, but I never did witness any
of that cafe episode because I stay away from those things because it
gets you in trouble.
Mr. Manuel. Now, sir, going back to April of 1964, did your as-
sociation discuss the incident in Griffin, Georgia, involving some mem-
bers of UKA who, in robes, burned a cross m front of a Negro business
establishment ?
Mr. Venable. Well, now, I never heard the national one. I say I
never heard them discuss it, you know, in open session or otherwise.
I myself went down there and represented those boys down there.
Mr. Manuel. Could you identify the people whom you represented ?
Mr. Venable. I don't know ; I can maybe recall some of the names.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your knowledge.
*******
Mr. Manuel. And the approximate date of that ?
Mr. Venable. I don't know. I have a file on that. You say
dates, I handled a lot of cases, but I have a file. I can tell you the court
it was in.
Mr. Manuel. Could you tell me was it the early part of the summer,
1964?
3954 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Venable. It oould have been.
Mr. Manuel. Proceed.
Mr. Venable. The evidence showed that these defendants — they
identified them ; of course, they denied it — on a Saturday, I believe — of
some afternoon, I believe it was a Saturday — went there, drove up in
front of this dry cleaning establishment that belonged to some colored
man there, and set a cross out in front on the sidewalk, or between the
curb and the sidewalk there, and lit it and drove off.
I believe he or some other people there got the tag number of the
automobile ; there were several of them in it, maybe two or three or four
or five there. And later on sometime that same day, the police officers
saw that car parked a block or a block and a half away from the estab-
lishment and arrested some of these people, maybe some of them, and
maybe some of them were not. I have a file and a brief of evidence on
it, I don't remember. That was evidence. Of course, these de-
fendants contended, and they brought witnesses there, that they were
not there at the time ; they were on a fishing episode or some other place
of what we called legal alibi there.
But the court. Colonel Bolton, who is now the attorney general of
Georgia, he was the police judge at that time of the city of Griffin, and
he found them guilty. Maybe one or two of them had weapons and
they were bound over to the superior court or city court there, what
we call the State court- there.
He imposed a fine of $500, I believe, 3 dollars and some odd cents;
it may be more or less. I filed a notice and filed a writ of certiorari for
each one of them. They eventually made a bond, I think he maybe put
the bond at a $1000.
They tried one or two of them in the State courts. I didn't repre-
sent them at thai hearing, I believe a lawyer by the name of Bailey did ;
a mistrial. They were acquitted about the weapons, maybe they had a
license, or one of them did.
Mr. Manuel. Sir, before you proceed, may I ask you who paid the
fine for these defendants ?
Mr. Venable. They didn't pay the fine. I certioraried those cases
in superior court. I argued those cases here a month or so ago before
Judge Mitchell and Judge Bolton appeared, and the city attorney ap-
peared in Thomaston, Georgia. My ground in our writ was that they
didn't prove the venue ; they didn't prove where the cross was actually
placed. The fire was set in the city, you know ; they proved that the
establishment was in the city, so on that technicality the judge had to
sustain a writ and grant them a new trial.
^Vhile that was pending, I understood that the defendants, some
of them, I don't know, maybe all of them, went there and posted a
100-some-odd-dollar bond, maybe $103, to cover the costs.
I had a letter from the attorney for the city who said that they would
pay the superior court, costs — I don't know what that is — and he would
recommend such a fine if I dismissed it. I dismissed it, the costs have
not been paid, and I don't know who put up fines.
That is the status of it now.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know the source of the money of the bond
that was put up for these gentlemen?
Mr. Venable. No, I don't know who signed the bonds ; I don't know
who put up the cash. I had nothing to do with it, whether individuals
or not.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3955
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, at this time, did you know these defend-
ants to be members of the United Klans of America ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I understood they were members of the United
Klans. I don't know for certain.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your recollection, what was the source
of 3^our information as to their membership in that organization ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I was told that they belonged to it, you know.
I personally, I don't know. I imderstood at one time they belonged
to it.
]\Ir. Manuel. Well, at any point at the time of the trial, did you
establish they were members ?
Mr. Venable. That never did come out in evidence. Nobody, to
my knowledge, swore that they were, but I understood they belonged
to the United Klans at that time. I believe maybe one of them told me.
Mr. Manuel. Do you remember which one made that admission ?
Mr. Venabi,e. I believe Mr. Holcombe maybe told me they belonged
to it. I don't think he was mixed up in it in any way.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
To the best of your knowledge, did United Klans of America or
Mr. Calvin Craig, who is the Grand Dragon of that organization in
the State of Georgia, take any action regarding the membership of
these individuals in his organization ?
Mr. Venable. That, I don't know. I don't know whether he tried
them or whether he was tried or whether they were banished or whether
that charter was revoked or their membership.
Mr. Manuel. Now subsequent to this trial, did it come to your knowl-
edge in any way whatsoever that some of these defendants, some of
whom you represented; namely, John Max Mitchell and Raymond
McGriff and possibly Earl Holcombe, established another organiza-
tion known as the Vigilantes in the area of Bamesville, Georgia, in
Lamar County ?
Mr, Venable. No, I never heard of that until you mentioned it.
You see, the rank and file of the Klansmen never tell me anything,
secrets, if it be a secret. They know that I will give them a reprimand
or I would tell them not to do it.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
Now, Mr. Venable, do you have any knowledge regarding the cur-
rent membership in any Klan organization of Jolin Max Mitchell,
Colbert Raymond McGriff, or Earl Holcombe?
Mr. Venable. Do I have any knowledge
Mr. Manuel. Regarding the current membership in any Klan or-
ganization of those three individuals ?
Mr. Venable. Well, they have attended our Klaveni out at Tucker,
Georgia, on several occasions. If we know a man to be a Klansman, if
he is from some other organization, w^e have alw^ays, through a matter
of courtesy, allowed them to attend, you know, if somebody would
vouch for him or her.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
Would you please identify the organization which you referred to in
that last statement ?
Mr. Venable. Well, that is the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan, Inc.
3956 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. And that is a completely separate organization from
all those we have discussed up to this point ?
Mr. Venable. Yes; different, distinct, separate organization.
Mr. Manuel. When was that organization established ?
Mr. Venable. I believe I chartered that in November 19, maybe '63,
or first of the year.
Mr. Manuel. What is your position in that organization ?
Mr. Venable. I am now the imperial officer, Imperial Wizard of
that organization.
The Chairman. What is the name of it ?
Mr. Venable. National EJnights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc.
Mr. Manuel. Chartered in Fulton County, Georgia, November
1963, I believe, or was it DeKalb County, Mr. Venable ? Would you
correct me on that ?
Mr. Venable. That, I have forgotten, Mr. Manuel. It may have
been DeKalb, it may have been Fulton. I have a copy, but not with me.
Mr. Manuel. Now, Mr. Venable, what is your position in the Na-
tional KJtiights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Venable. You mean the one we are just talking about?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir ; the National Knights.
The Chairman. He is the Imperial Wizard.
Mr. Venable. I am the Imperial Wizard, or what you call the pres-
ident, you might say.
Mr. Manuel. How long have you held that position ?
Mr. Venable. Well, shortly after it was chartered and we met.
Mr. Manuel. Are you in a position as Imperial Wizard to know
who are members of your organization ?
Mr. Venable. No, I am not in the position to know and identify
every member belonging to it.
Mr. Manuel. All right. Specifically, do you know
The Chairman. You might develop something at this point so I can
follow it.
I take it that you have a number of Klaverns within that
organization ?
Mr. Venable. We just started off. Your Honor, and we have them.
We only got two or three lOaverns. In fact, we have not tried to set
up any.
The Chairman. Where are they ?
Mr. Venable. Well, we have got one small one, I mean we have got
the ladies and we have got the men at Tucker, Georgia, DeKalb
County. I believe there is a small unit up in Cobb County.
Mr. Manuel. Would that be in Marietta, sir ?
Mr. Venable. I don't know. In Ohio we have some. I don't think
we have set up actually any Klaverns there.
The Chairman. Well, at least I take it that you would know who are
your co-imperial officers.
Mr. Venable, Yes.
The Chairman. Aside from membership. Aside from simple mem-
bership, who are your co-officers ?
Mr. Venable. Well, Mr. Hugh Morris is one of them and Mr. H. G.
Hill.
The Chairman. What is Mr. Hill ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3957
Mr. Venable. Well, he is known as the vice president.
The Chairman. And what is that name in Klan language ?
Mr. Venable. Well, he is a Klaliff, and Mr. Morris is a Klndd. He
is what we call the chaplain.
We have not fully completed it because we are waiting on develop-
ment of membership there. We want to try to get the best and the
highest type people we could. We hesitate filling what is to be known
as the Imperial Board because I made a mistake up in Ohio. I had a
fellow named Flynn Harvey, I believe, and he kind of let us down up
there. He didn't do the things that he said he was going to do up there.
The Chairman. Well, I am referring now to a period before the
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Inc., was organized.
First, you said that you personally, and your associates in the orga-
nization, prior to the National Knights, didn't approve, and repudi-
ated probably you meant, certain acts of violence by the Shelton group.
Mr. Venable. Yes.
The Chairman. And you named two or three.
Mr. Venable. Yes.
The Chairman. Now aside from those incidents, what are some of
the tolerabje activities'? Let me be specific and frank. We have evi-
dence, and I think some of it documentary, spelling out acts of harass-
ment— there is a written docmnent somewhere — to distinguish between
what you are talking about and acts of harassment involving, oh, phone
calls and warnings and so on.
Wliere, within the group before the National Knights was formed,
was the line drawn beitween acts of violence and harassment m the lan-
guage of the Klan, activities, if you want to ? I am not using the word
"harassment" in any other fashion except as we have evidence that
there is a sharp distinction between acts of violence and other activities.
I want to get your best judgment.
Mr. Venable. Yes. I would consider acts of intimidation, you
know, using a robe, burning a cross as these men are alleged to have
done down there in Griffin. That was, you might say, intimidation,
so you might say threats. I would consider acts of violence where you
participated in beating a man up or killing a person or doing some
harm.
The Chairman. Or engage in bombings ?
Mr. Venable. Any kind of bombing, that would be acts of violence.
Of course, I get threats through the mail and phone all the time and
members of my family, but I have never let it worry me to any extent.
I mean I never have met any. I have got many threats. There is not
a day passes I don't receive in the mail from, I assume, some crackpot,
you know, threatening me to come to Atlanta and kill me and kill the
members of my family.
The Chairman. If I can choose another word, what are acts of
"discipline," "disciplinary" matters that are approved of or encour-
aged or acquiesced in, or any word you want to call it?
Mr. Venable. It is a duty. If that knowledge comes to an officer
of the Klan or one that heads a unit known as the cyclops — he is the
president of that Klavern or unit there — it is his duty to prefer writ-
ten charges, serve that member, and try him. He can have a lawyer
and try him in that Klavern. He can pick his own jury among the
members.
59-222 O — 67— pt. 5 31
3958 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
The Chairman. I am afraid we are not communicating with each
other. Certainly there are principles that the Klan stands for, your
Klan group ?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
The Chairman. The present one — and before the National Knights
of the Klan was organized- — that are acquiesced in, known and winked
at or overlooked, or encouraged. I don't want to put any words in your
mouth, you are a lawyer.
Mr. Venable. I have never overlooked any of them. If it comes to
my knowledge, I immediately call him to talk if it is just a minor thing.
If I see a Klansman and know he has got authority to carry a gun, a
permit as we call it, a pistol, toter's license, I have always been against
it. Even going to a public rally, even though you have that authority,
not to come on the premises with a gun, not to get into any disturbance.
The Chairman. That leads to my final question. I thought what I
was asking about might have been a reason. What, then, was the reason
for you to form a new group about November of 1963, the National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?
Mr. Venable. My reason for it, I said I have been a dedicated
Klansman practically all my life up until when I was about 18 years
old, having known all of the former Imperial Wizards except Nathan
Bedford Forrest. I went to school with the first; I knew the second
who lived in Atlanta ; went to old Tech High School with the third,
he is a good friend of mine. I knew Dr. Simmons, Dr. Evans, Coles-
cott, and all the rest of them, the past Imperial Wizards.
My uncle was a believer and belonged to the Klan ; Mr. Klaskin, who
I lived with; my grandfather, a Confederate soldier, was in the old
original Klans ; Mr. J. J. Ragan. I have been around and in connec-
tion, I have studied the ritualistic ceremony. I have considered that
I have been fortunate in being a member of many secret organizations,
but I have never fomid one that is a more solemn and sacred fraternal,
patriotic organization than the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. There
are many members that have abused that authority granted them,
willing to admit that, but we should not be condemned for the conduct
of Craig or Shelton or some other group there.
The Chairman. Now what were the reasons for organizing this?
Mr. Venable. My reason was to try to take the best and try to
reorganize a Klan which I would be proud of and society would be
proud of there. Under these new laws that have been enacted by the
Congress, use a ballot box. I mainly preach that. That is our salva-
tion, using the ballot box. We can use the boycott if we want to, but
I said the ballot box is the main thing.
I have been trying to advocate that and teach it to them, to unite the
white people to use the ballot box.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, to get back to the National Knights at
this point, do the National Knights operate under a constitution and
bylaws?
Mr. Venable. Well, we operate under a charter and we recognize the
old charter. There ought to be some changes in the old constitution.
The reason we hesitated, we wanted to get enough members on the legis-
lative branch that will make it. There should be an amendment, and
let them say how it should be made and what sections should be made.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3959
Mr. Manuel. More specifically, does your organization now operate
under a set of laws and constitution and bylaws ?
Mr. Venable. We recognize the old constitution as a supreme law,
but there are some changes that ought to be made in it.
Mr. Manuel. Now in general, as Imperial Wizard, could you tell
the committee whether your organization adheres to these laws as
set down by that constitution ?
Mr. Venable. We do try to. There may be some ways we don't
stick strictly to it because our charter is a little different than the old
charter.
Mr. Manuel. Now, did you, sir, draw up the present constitution
and bylaw^s of the National Knights in their present form ?
Mr. Venable. No, I have not. No, I have not drawn it. I have
been working on it, but I have not had time to finish it and I did not
want to make any changes in it until I discussed it with the full board.
Mr. Manuel. In other words, you are an organization now oper-
ating without a completed constitution and bylaws ?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please tell the committee at this point
what are your duties as Imperial Wizard of this organization ?
The Chairman. Before that, I think the record should show, are
you still a member of any other Klan group ?
Mr. Venable. No, sir. No, I am not a member of any other Klan
group other than the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Further for the record, Mr. Chairman, he is the
chairman of the association which we discussed.
Mr. Venable. But we don't pay dues or carry any cards from that ;
it is just an honorary, temporary job.
Mr. Manuel. All right. Then what are your duties as Imperial
Wizard of the National Knights ?
Mr. Venable. Well, as the president of a corporation there I try
to keep it in line and order. I try to promote the Klan, I try to speak,
I try to give them advice, the Klan, put it in session, in rallies or even
in a Klavern there. And I try to teach them the do's and the don'ts,
which is a hard problem, what not to do and what to do to keep your-
self out of trouble and to build the Klan.
Mr. Manuel. I see. As Imperial Wizard, do you keep any set of
records for your organization ?
Mr. Venable. Yes; we keep all the money that is taken in and
from what source and what State. We keep receipts and canceled
checks, if I give one, where we pay bills for printing, and so forth.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee where your records
are kept ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I keep them in Atlanta, I keep some at Tucker,
and I keep some at home. My niece, my nephew's wife, she helps,
you know, put them on the books, make up cards.
Mr. Manuel. What is her name, sir?
Mr. Venable. Mrs. Sara Langley. She lives near me there.
Mr. Manuel. Are there any other individuals besides yourself and
Mrs. Langley who have access to your records ?
Mr. Venable, No. Of course they are out there, anybody can go
there and steal them. We practically had a burglar out there recently.
3960 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
stole some stuff out there ; I don't know what they got. Stole a tele-
vision, stole the flag and sword out there in the Klavern. They are
not under any lock and key.
The Chairman. What are your dues?
Mr. Venable. You mean initiation?
The Chairman. Initiation and dues.
Mr. Venable. The klectokon as you call it, that is the initiation fee,
that is $15 if you accept it. That is for a man ; $12 for a lady ; and a
teenager from 16 to 20, that is $10 initiation fee. The annual dues are
$15 a year. You can pay a third of it or all of it or half of it. It is
$15 for a man, $12 for a lady, and $10 for what we call a teenager.
The Chairman. Do you have, or have you had, occasion to have
as yet special fund collections, such as for the defense of people ?
Mr. Venable. We have not started that. That is one of the things
that we anticipate doing, you know. We ought to have a defensive fund
as the Negroes have in the NAACP — if a Klansman runs afoul of the
law or have a bond or have legal counsel. We have not raised or kept
any for that; in fact, we have not had any to do that. We are just
young in the field.
The Chairman. Have you engaged in the passing of the hat at
meetings ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir; we have on several occasions there. Now
the rally we had at Stone Mountain, we meet there annually, we have
for years and years met on property there that I own an interest in
there for the last 25 years. This last meeting they raised $52 down
there by passing the hat. That was to defray the expenses — I had a
gentleman by the name of Dr. Fowler who flew from St. Petersburg,
was in the old Klan, the Colonel Simmons Klan. We took that up
to pay his fare, $65-something. We got $53-something donations, as
you call them.
(At this point Mr. Weltner left the hearing room.)
The Chairman. Let me ask you this question. It is a technical
one, but it is important with reference to accounting. The National
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan is a corporation ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. It is a legal entity?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
The Chairman. Does it file income tax returns?
Mr. Venable. Yes ; they filed in 1964. You know, under our law
now what we call a charity, it is a benevolent nonprofit corporation.
I itemize. Printing is one thing, telephone is another one, itemize it.
Yes, we filed 1964 ; I signed it as president. We will have to file one
this year which will be, you know, the year to come in March or April
or sometime.
The Chairman. I think that, at this point, in order to rest the re-
porter's fingers, we will take a 5-minute recess.
(Whereupon, at 11 :25 a.m. a brief recess was taken.)
(At this point Mr. Weltner returned to the hearing room.)
(Subcommittee members present at time of reconvening after brief
recess: Representatives Willis, Weltner, and Buchanan.)
The Chairman. The subcommittee will please come to order.
Proceed, Mr. Manuel.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3961
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, with further regard to your records,
that is the records of the National Knights, would you please tell the
committee what these records reflect in regard to finances ?
Mr. Venable. Well, it is in the hole, you mean ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Venable. They owe me $700.
Mr. Manuel. No, let me make myself plainer.
Mr. Venable. Well, I can tell you, if any money comes from the
State of Georgia or any other State there or North' Carolina, any
State there, we keep a record how much money comes there, what it
is for, the initiation fees or whether it is dues.
Mr. Manuel. Are the records kept in such a manner that they re-
flect by name or number every one who pays an initiation fee to the
National Knights ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I do it. I keep it that way. I keep a card
index for this reason. We try to process them. We get a lot of
applications from people that want to join. They sign an applica-
tion, and we send him or her a receipt and we put on that receipt
"Not Initiated" or we put on there whether it is initiation fee, you
know. Put "N.S.," not sworn; "N.I.," not initiated.
Mr. Manuel. How is that determination made, Mr. Venable?
Mr. Venable. Well, I mean if he or she sends in an application,
we don't want to go in that area until we know that we can operate
in that area, we want to know that there will be a sufficient number
of applicants that warrants having somebody to investigate the indi-
viduals or the people there to find out the character, and so forth, of
our applicant.
Mr. Manuel. I see. Would you then explain how one applies for
membership in the National Knights ?
Mr. Venable. Well, lots of them at these public rallies have filed
an application where you have an open rally soliciting membership.
They file an application. We usually leave that application in. that
community with somebody that we trust.
Mr. Manuel. Now at the time that they filed the application, do
they also pay the initiation fee which I understand is $15 ?
Mr. Venable. Sometimes they pay it all, sometimes they pay a part
of it, and sometimes they pay none of it. If they are accepted and ini-
tiated it has to be paid before he or she is initiated, the balance of
his initiation fee.
Mr. Manuel. And how is that determination made?
Mr. Venable. Well, the applicant shows what sums he paid and
what sums he owed, you know. Because he files an application and
pays a fee, that does not mean he is accepted. I have rejected a num-
ber of applicants.
Mr. Manuel. On what basis have you rejected applicants?
Mr. Venable. Well, I can usually look at an applicant's applica-
tion. On the back he has to give reference. If he is unemployed I
am a little scared of him. If he has been employed by a place, say 6
or 7 years, reputable, chance then he would make a good Klansman.
In order to qualify you have to be a native-born white of the Christian
faith to become a' Klansman. This is the only organization I know,
white organization, in the United States, that requires that.
3962 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
The Chairman. Requires what now ?
Mr. Venable. A native-born white of the Christian faith. You
have to be a native-born citizen of this country of the Christian faith
and you have to be white.
The Chairman. I thought that was universal from what we have
heard so far ?
Mr. Venable. You have to be white and native-bom of Christian
faith.
The Chairman. I am not going into a sensitive area of religion
now, but just as a matter of record that does not include Jews and
Catholics?
Mr. Venable. Well, I know nothing in the constitution which pro-
hibits a Catholic from becoming a member, but we have knowledge
that his faith, his priest, that they don't condone secret organiza-
tions ; it is not tolerated, I understand, except the Knights of Colum-
bus. He disqualifies himself, I understand, on his religion. I have
never had any objection to a Catholic. In fact, I sent my children
each to a Catholic school ; my sister went to one.
The Chairman. Well, that has been the general pattern ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, that has been the general pattern.
The Chairman. Jews and Catholics are not part of it.
Mr. Venable. It is not because being a Jew, it is because he does
not believe in Jesus Christ and the Klan is based on the Holy Writ, all
of its obligations, its oath. Not that we hold it against him.
The Chairman. An objection that was referred to with reference
to Catholics is that they are obligated to confess to the priest and
have faith in the brotherhood of Christ and that somehow excludes
them.
Mr. Venable. That is right. Then, too, there has been some dis-
cussion, he owes allegiance to a foreign sect, that is the Pope. I don't
know if he has that right. I have no falling out with any person, any
color, creed, worship, anything he wants to. He can be an atheist and
I recognize his rights.
The Chairman. Aside from the wording of the documents, as a
practice, Jews, for the reasons you stated, and Catholics, are excluded ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir ; but I notice where Mr. Shelton has opened
the door and has accepted Catholics up in Delaware. Now we may
have accepted some applicants in and around, you know, they say they
are of the Christian faith. You know, some of them have rejected their
faith, have been Catholics and have joined the Klan. I haveiieard of
such cases.
The Chairman. But not in your organization?
Mr. Venable. Not to my knowledge.
The Chairman. White, native-bom, Christian.
Mr. Venable. Christians ; that is right. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, what is the initiation fee of persons ap-
plying for membership in the National Knights ?
The Chairman. He said $15, $12, and $10.
Mr. Venable. That is right. Yes, sir ; you are right.
Mr. Manuel. Of the $15 that a prospective member pays what per-
centage of that money is sent to the national headquarters and what
percentage is kept by the local head of the Klan in the particular
locality ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3963
Mr. Venable. It depends on this. I know Mr. Morris has gone into
a State and has an organizer. He has paid as much as $5 for a kleagle
or $2.50 or maybe $2. That person that is listed and gets people to
sign an applicant, if the applicant is accepted, he is paid that kleagle
or the organizer there to solicit $2.50 to $5. If he gets $5, $5 is left with
the local people there to pay their rent and establish a Klavem there,
and $5 is sent to the home office. That money is used to pay telephone,
rent, and literature. We have to furnish Klorans and other matters
that are necessary to run a Klavem with.
Mr. Manuel. Wlien you say the home office, you mean the national
headquarters ?
Mr. Venable. The national headquarters at Tucker, Georgia.
Mr. Manuel. So you receive one-third ?
Mr. Venable. If it is processed. If they paid the kleagle fees, then
one-half comes to the national and they keep half of it there.
The Chairman. Mr. Venable, at this point, from what you have
said about keeping records and everything else and the care with which
funds are accounted for and everything else, it seems to me inevitable
that you must have a working knowledge of the number of Klavems
you have and total membership.
Mr. Venable. Well, as I say, we are young. We really have not
had any Klaverns set up operating weekly or monthly. Now and
then we meet at Tucker, Georgia. We used to meet twice a month,
we meet maybe once a month, because we have not had sufficient time
and memberships where you could pay the rents for Klaverns and af-
ford to have a Klavern, you know, rent one or lease one there.
The Chairman. Well, in terms of applications received, you cer-
tainly ought to be able to give us some figures.
Mr. Venable. Well, we only collected $500 or $500 last year, which
would not warrant even paying all the expenses of printing and tele-
phone and postage there. We have sent out hundreds of
The Chairman. That is last year but
Mr. Venable. This year we have probably collected $900.
The Chairman. Well, 9 and 5 is 14 and can we divide that a little
bit and judge with some accuracy ?
Mr. Venable. That will be broken down. I will be glad to furnish
this committee with a breakdown of what we paid out of last year,
the income taxes filed with the State.
The Chairman. I am talking in terms of membership, as so much
material printed
Mr. Venable. Yes.
The Chairman. In the press, I am talking about, and speculations
and sometimes exaggeration on the part of certain Klavems and
groups, large groups, that we have. I ask this because we want to have
ultimatiely for our report some reliable figures.
Mr. Venable. I can break it down to every dollar and cent. Your
Honor. I mean, I can tell you
The Chairman. I am talking in terms of numbers of people, not
numbers of dollars.
Mr. Venable. We have not got in the National Knights, you might
say, 500 people in good standing, that is actually been initiated in the
Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. We have got maybe 200 applicants
3964 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
pending that have never been initiated, we don't know whether to ac-
cept it or be rejected. I could tell you that. We have not tried to
build too fast; we have not had the finances. Time is now spent; I
have spent hundreds of dollars trying to promote the Klan, flying here
and there, driving the automobile.
The Chairman. I am in no position to do so and I do not challenge
what you are saying.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, likewise, how many Klavems are affili-
ated with the National Knights at this time ?
Mr. Venable. As I told you about Ohio, I don't know whether
there has ever been a lOavern in operation up there. I know we have
initiated probably 250 people up there. I don't know w^hether they
have ever set up a Klavern. We left money up there for that purpose.
Mr. Manuel. Well then, Mr. Venable, would you explain for the
committee how a Klavern is chartered by the National Knights?
AVliat procedure do you follow, sir?
Mr. Venable. Well, we have never legally chartered any Klavern
according to the constitution.
Mr. Manuel. Well, has any Klavern ?
Mr. Venable. Neither has the National Klavern ever been char-
tered. I have never hung the charter up on the Avail because, as I
said, we have not had sufficient members. It takes about 15 officers in
the Klavem and you can't get that many regularly to attend.
Mr. MiVNUEL. Have you, as Imperial Wizard, issued any charters for
any Klavem ?
Mr. Venable. I sent some charters up signed and made them to sign
up — Ohio to Mr. Flynn Harvey, and he is out of it. I understood he
joined the United Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Let's take one Klavem as an example.
Mr. Venable. All right.
Mr. Manuel. Does the National Knights operate a Klavem and
is a Klavem chartered in the area of Barnesville, Georgia, at the pres-
ent time ?
Mr. Venable. That, I don't know. I think Mr. Holcombe got some
charters from me, blanks, and maybe some signed charters. I keep
some at home, I keep some out at the national headquarters — you can
go out there and pick them up on the table there — and I keep some in
my office in Atlanta.
Mr. Manuel. Is it your procedure, then, to sign charters in blank
and give them to individuals who are organizers ?
Mr. Venable. We only have one seal, and that seal stays at my
house, you know. I put a gold seal on them and put the impression
of the seal on that charter, you know. I take some to the office, I
take some to Tucker.
Mr. Manuel. And to the best of your knowledge, is there such a
charter in Barnesville, Georgia ?
Mr. Venable. I have never legally handled one or been down there
to present them one myself. If there is such a charter down there,
it is not according to our constitution.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge, are Earl Holcombe, Eay
McGriff , and Jolui Max Mitchell members of the National Knights ?
Have they paid initiation ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3965
Mr. Venable. They have never paid any initiation fees. They
have never paid any dues to the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan. They were members of the old U.S. and they were members
of the United Klans. They are Klansmen, as far as I know.
Mr. Mantjel. Have they received any compensation from the Na-
tional Knights as organizers of that organization ?
Mr. Venable. Not to my knowledge. I have no report, where they
liave sent any money to the National Knights or have they received
any to my personal knowledge; no, sir. There would be a record,
and I know of no such record.
Mr. Manuel. To your certain knowledge, do Mr. Holcombe, Mr.
McGriff, and Mr. Mitchell have in their possession, or available to
them, membership cards in the National Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan?
Mr. Venable. We have issued very few membership cards. As I
say, there are membership cards at Tucker, some at my Atlanta office,
and some at my home.
Mr. Manuel. Specifically, do you know that they have?
Mr. Venable. Not personally. They could have, but I don't
remember if they issued any. I have issued quite a number to dif-
ferent people, you know.
Mr. Manuel. Well, could you explain for the committee, then,
how one does obtain a membership card in the National Knights?
Mr. Venable. When he is sworn, initiated, he obtains one.
Mr. Manuel. Well, to your certain knowledge, then who in the
National Knights has such a membership card ?
Mr. Venable. You mean what individuals have it?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Venable. There are probably a hundred or so have a member-
ship in the National, maybe 300 membership cards.
Mr. Manuel. Is it in your knowledge to know by way of records
who those individuals are?
Mr. Venable. No, I could not tell you by any records for the simple
reason that I could not tell you whether they paid an initiation fee
or whether they paid any dues. I have those records ; I have to keep
those for the Government.
Mr. Manuel. Well, Mr. Venable, in light of the procedures which
you have just described, how do you as Imperial Wizard keep con-
trol over your membership ?
Mr. Venable. Well, if I issue a card, it is put on an index and
that index carries his or her card number, 1102 or 406. On his card,
if he has a card or she has a card, it would be signed by me. Now
if they pay dues in a Klavern, I have nothing to do with that, they
are supposed to account to me so much of that fund. I have never
received any accounting from any Klavern except a small one, I think,
in Alabama. I received $5 on one occasion and $5 again on another
occasion from some small unit operating in Centreville, Alabama.
The Chairman. Your index cards, then, are kept on the basis of
numbers rather than names?
Mr. Venable. Well, I think we set up the names as well as numbers
on the receipt that we send him. If he sends his application in we send
him back the receipt acknowledging his fee that he has paid. That
3966 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
doesn't mean that he is accepted, we want to acknowledge that we
have received it. Many of them come through the mail.
The Chairman. Do the numbers follow serially ? In other words,
do you start from number one ?
Mr. Venable. No, sir; because I have cards in the Tucker office, I
have some in the Atlanta office, what I speak of my law office, and I
have some at home.
The Chairman. Because you just said one might bear number 406,
the other might bear niunber 1102.
Mr. Venable. That is right. The reason we keep that number, that
card, usually we know who got 402 or 608 or 12 or 15.
The Chairman. So I take it that you must have some control list
of numbers aside from the numbered cards.
Mr. Venable. That is right. He may be number two Klansman, he
may have 608 card if it is issued out of Tucker. See, I get a lot of
mail at Stone Mountain and I get some at Tucker; we have a post
office box there. Then some comes to Atlanta at my address there.
I usually make an entry, or my nephew's wife files it, you know, fixes
it up where we can keep a tab on who is paid, who has not paid his or
her dues.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, will you identify the individuals to
whom you have given blank application forms in bulk ?
Mr. Venable. "Well, that, I could not name. I give to numerous
people. I give Mrs. Foster some ; I give some out up in Ohio. I have
given maybe 500 or more to Mr. Hugh Morris, you know.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your knowledge, have you given such
application forms to Messrs. Holcombe, McGriff, or Mitchell ?
Mr. Venable. They have got some application forms. In fact,
they can go out of Tucker now, the office is open 24 hours a day out
there, somebody to answer.
Mr. Manuel. Have you personally, sir, given them application
forms for charters ?
Mr. Venable. Yes. They have for charters. The only one I give
any charters to is Mr. Holcombe, several of them signed, and unsigned,
I believe.
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir. Now with reference to the question of con-
trol of membership which I asked you a minute ago, I had in mind
how do you control membership with regard to possible criminal
backgrounds of applicants to the National Knights ?
Mr. Venable. Well, there is no way we can check up on the man's
background. I mean we have not got facilities ; I can't give you that
information. The Atlanta police information, if he is in that area,
you know, won't give it out to the public. We have to rely on the
local people in the neighborhood where he lives or people who have
known him. He furnishes two references. Looking at those refer-
ences we go by those as a good risk.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess a second.
(Wliereupon, a brief recess was taken.)
(Subcommittee membere present at time of reconvening after brief
recess : Representatives Willis, Weltner, and Buchanan.)
The Chairman. I hereby reconstitute this subcommittee composed
of myself, Mr. Weltner, and Mr. Buchanan to continue the taking of
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3967
the testimony, and let the record show that there is a quorum of that
subcommittee.
(At tliis point Mr. Weltner left the hearing room. )
Mr. MA.NUEL. Mr. Venable, are persons who are known to have crim-
inal or police backgrounds or records eligible for membership in the
National Knights?
Mr. Venable. Are they eligible? Their application does not say
anything about whether he or she has a crimmal record or not. He or
she furnishes their reference on the back, two references, his occupa-
tion, his name and address, and they vouch for him or her.
The Chairman. Let me ask you, is it a requirement or practice that
application references must be members of your organization? Is
there any requirement on that ?
Mr. Venable. I didn't get your question, Your Honor.
The Chairman. You said that the application forms lists people
recommending the applicant. Now just for my own information, is it
required that one of these references must be an initiated and accepted
member ?
Mr. Venable. He or she must furnish reference on the back of the
application. The applicant himself must give his name and address
and occupation, telephone number, and on the reference he must give
so-and-so as reference.
The Chairman. Is it required that one of these so-and-so's must be
a member of the National Knights ?
Mr. Venable. Well, in the old Klan it was. I had to endorse you
if you wanted to join.
The Chairman. That is what I am talking about.
Mr. Venable. But now trying to organize what we call a new Klan,
there are hundreds of people that have never been in the Klan and
never been in a Klavern and we just accept reference. He or she does
not have to be in the Klan.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Manuel. Is it possible, Mr. Venable, that individuals who have
been involved in acts of violence prior to application to your organiza-
tion could become members of the National Knights under the proce-
dvre that you have described ?
Mr. Venable. They could become members known and unknown to
the authorities of the people who solicited them because it is a hard
process now to go through. We have no means hardly. If we had
the sums of money, we could process them properl5\ Under the old
procedure, you used to have a klokann connnittce. If I brought your
application in, it was read in the Klavern there three times just like
the Masonic — I don't know whether you have been into it or not. You
could get blackballed or rejected. I have rejected many. In fact,
I rejected a lawyer on occasion and made an enemy in Atlanta some
years ago; he was under indictment in his own profession. His appli-
cation come up in the Klavern of which I was president and it was
being passed, and I rose to my feet and stopped it there because I
mew he was undesirable at that time. The klokann committee could
process them and they could go out in the neighborhood, like the Ma-
sonic area does, and see if they have a good character or good reputa-
tion. But we can't do it, it is hard to do it.
3968 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. Let me ask you, to your knowledge, how do your
recruiting procedures differ from the United Klans of America headed
by Shelton?
Mr. Venable. Well, I don't know how they process theirs. We only
process them by the community, the people who are interested in that
community or established in a Klavern. We allow them to process
them and okay them or reject them. Now I don't know how Mr.
Shelton and Mr. Craig accept their membership.
When I was there a short time, I noticed in the Klavern they did
read certain names. I know the old U.S. always read his or her name
out there several times to see if there were any objections and, if he
had been okayed by the klokann committee that a Klansman would
put in the minutes that this application has been okayed by the com-
mittee there, and then they would vote on him or her.
Mr. Manuel. It is my understanding that one of the objections to
Shelton's United Klans of America by your National Association is
that the United Klans takes in anyone for membership, including
Mr. Venable. I have heard that, and on any occasion they would
take in anyone who has had an initiation fee. I have heard that.
Down in there they tell me they take them back of the platform during
the meeting. If that person signed an application and paid his money,
he was taken in then and there without any process of investigation.
I have heard that, I don't know it to be a fact. I have heard that about
Shelton.
Mr. Manuel. Specifically, then, sir, if your organization functions
differently, what investigation do you perform on your prospective
members ?
Mr. Venable. As I stated before, if it is in Hartwell, Georgia, I
am just assuming that, or Athens, Georgia, if we had a prospective
bunch in the Klan — in fact, I went over there and spoke to them before
they ever joined.
We would tell them the qualifications ; we would leave it up to those
local people to solicit membership and to okay his or her application.
If they accepted them, we would certainly accept him or her.
The Chairman. And your obligation is to set out the guidelines to
the local people who might solicit.
The Venable. The guidelines, and in fact I give them a letter there.
We go further than the applicant in our guideline to that klaliff or that
man that is soliciting or woman soliciting.
The Chairman. I am a lawyer myself and I am not engaging in
repartee with you or cross-examination, but this point does occur to me.
If I listened to the evidence well thus far, two or three members for-
merly connected with United Klans whom you defended for acts of
violence — you are not sure whether they are members now and it may
be that they are.
How would that slipup come ?
Mr. Venable. Well, they have been in the old U.S., they have been
in the United Klans. They have attended our meeting out at Tucker.
I have known these boys personally. I didn't know anything about
their engagement in a lot of this stuff; it has just come to my attention.
As soon as I get back to Atlanta, if they are operating under a charter
I am going to suspend it or, if they are connected with our organiza-
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3969
tion, I certainly will take steps to get them out of it, you know. I don't
want to do anything to hurt this young Klan organization of which
I am a member.
Mr. Manuel. But the record I think at this point should show that
for whatever reason they acquired membership that they are currently
members of the National Knights.
Mr. Venable. Undoubtedly they are, but they have never paid any
dues or never have been initiated in the National applicants.
Mr. Manuel. I see. Are they recognized as what you describe as
local people or Klavern heads in Barnesville?
Mr. Venable. I don't know what their position is. I have never
been to Barnesville myself if they have a Klavern there; it is 40 miles
away from Atlanta. I went there some 2 or 3 years ago and spoke
to a Klavern. I don't know whether either one of them are in it. At
that time, I don't recall seeing either one in it. It was a United
Klavern.
Mr. Manuel. I see. Now could you describe for the committee
what investigative procedures your so-called local people or kleagles
in various geographical areas, what investigative procedures they go
through to screen prospective members? It seems that from your
testimony the onus is on them as far as recruitment is concerned.
Mr. Venable. Well, I instruct them to see that the people that are
regular, that have jobs and sources of qualification, I have always
stated that, and try to keep out of the Klan any what we call rabble-
rousers, people that are likely to cause trouble at an open meeting or
that are all the time getting into trouble or cause any kind of trouble
or to cause any kind of violation of the law, be a party to it, law
violators who want to go out and create trouble, preaching, intimida-
tion of any type. We don't want that type of people.
Mr. Manuel. Now as of this point, is this procedure which you
have just described in accordance with the constitution as it now
stands of the National Knights?
Mr. Venable. Well ; yes, sir. They must be people of good moral
character and of course, I have told you, being white and native-born.
Mr, Manuel. Now we have established for the record that there is
a Klavern of the National Knights in Barnesville, Georgia. Is that
correct, sir ?
Mr. Venable. That, I don't know. If it is, I know it is operating
there illegally.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
Mr. Venable. If it is.
Mr. Manuel. In what other areas in Georgia does the National
Knights have a Klavern ?
Mr. Venable. The only one I know is at Tucker, Georgia, and I
don't know where it is located in Cobb County. That is the only
ones I know of.
Mr. Manuel. Is that also known as the Smyrna ?
Mr. Venable. I don't know where it is located. It may be in Cobb
County or one of the adjoining counties. I know Mr. Chapman was
with it.
Mr. Manuel. What is Mr. Chapman's first name ?
Mr. Venable. I think it is John Chapman. I knew him in the old
U.S. Klans.
3970 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. Is Mr, Chapman the organizer for your Klavem in
Smyrna ?
Mr. Venable. Up in that area there, he has the authority to orga-
nize and to accept or reject membership in the Klan,
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your knowledge, could you describe
the organization of the National Knights in that area ?
Mr. Venable. As I say, I never have been up in that area to any
Klavern. I never attended one. I understand he has one up there
and what Knights they might and whom he has, I don't know.
The Chairman. Let me ask you just one question.
Have not quite a large number, or any percentage that might come
to your mind, of former U.S. Klansmen joined your new organization ?
Mr. Venable. Approximately how many, to my knowledge ?
The Chairman. Yes, in other words, is that a social solicitation ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I would say not more than 25, you know, the
former old U.S. Not all 25, it may be probably less than that, just
knowing the names and faces.
The Chairman. Now finally, you mentioned quite a while ago that
you instructed them into the do's and the don't s and you say that that
sometimes becomes a hard job. I didn't follow you at that point.
What did you have in mind ?
Mr. Venable. Well, the do's is not to get out and create anv dis-
turbance, violate any laws — Federal, State, or local — and use the oallot
box. Those are the do's, and get your neighbors to vote, register, get
the teenagers that are eligible and capable of voting.
The Chairman, I am going to ask you a question on that point and
I don't want it to be misunderstood, as I know you respect the sanctity
of registration and the right to vote.
Mr. Venable. Yes,
The Chairman. And it would not surprise me if in recommending
to the members that they do vote, that you advocate certain policies or
you go beyond that in the case of cer'tain candidates. I know this is a
difficult question, I am trying to put it in an acceptable context.
Mr. Venable. We don't tell a member who he should not vote for or
against. That is what destroyed the old Klan of 50 years; Colonel
Simmons and Evans and Colescott was participating in politics. They
know who is best qualified,
I never have told anybody "you ought to vote for this or that," leave
it up to them, but vote. I always tell them it is their duty to vote ; if
they criticize the Government, then take a part in the ballot box and do
something about it if you are dissatisfied.
The Chairman. At this point we have reached the time when we
must recess for lunch. We will resume the hearing at 2 o'clock.
I (Subcommittee members present at time of recess: Representatives
Willis and Buchanan.)
(Wliereupon, at 12 :15 p, m., Wednesday, October 6, 1965, the sub-
committee recessed, to reconvene at 2 p.m. the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 6, 1965
(The subcommittee reconvened at 2 :40 p.m., Hon. Edwin E. Willis,
chairman, presiding.)
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3971
(Subcommittee members present: Representatives Willis and
Buchanan.)
The Chairman. Tlie subcommittee will come to order, the quorum
being present.
Proceed, Mr. Manuel.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES E. VENABLE— Resumed
Mr. Manuel. Now, Mr. Venable, with further regard to the organi-
zation of National Knights, do you have a chartered Klavem located
in Hartwell, Georgia ?
Mr. Venable. We have not got a charter Klavem. We have maybe
anywhere from 8 to 20 people. It has been initiated, but they never
have set up. We have a place to meet, a Klavern. I mean the place I
meet is in Tucker, Georgia. They were initiated at Tucker, Georgia.
Mr. Manuel, Will you please identify by name and title, if any, the
person who is in Hartwell ?
Mr. Venable. Well, the only one I can name, I know them all by
face — just a minute, I will tell you his name. I will have to look in my
little book. His name is Herndon, He called me some months ago
and was interested in joining. He lives out from Hartwell and not
in the city.
Mr. Manuex. Is his last name Herndon ?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. H-e-r
Mr. Venable. H-e-r-n-d-o-n, Herndon.
Mr. Manuel. All right. That is quite sufficient.
Mr. Venable. He, I believe, is connected with the potato chip busi-
ness, a distributor or something in that area, maybe working out of
Anderson, South Carolina.
Mr. Manuel. Other than the Klaverns or organizations which the
National Knights has in Barnesville, Georgia ; Smyrna, Georgia ; and
Hartwell, Georgia, are there any other Klaverns in the State of
Georgia ?
Mr. Venable. I know of no other. I understood they were trying
to set one up around Cartersville, but I don't know. I have not had
any communication from that area in several weeks. I don't know
whether they have been able to set up one or not.
Mr. Manuel. Now, other than the State of Ohio, Mr. Venable, in
what other State or States does the National Knights operate ?
The Chairman. He mentioned four: North Carolina, South Caro-
lina, Tennessee, and Ohio, if I remember well.
Mr. Venable. No. North Carolina, we got some members up there,
but we have not got any Klaverns set up yet. We are just in the process
of trying to get off the ground in these States.
Mr. Manuel. Do you have any chartered Klaverns in the State of
Louisiana ?
Mr. Venable. No, the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan has
not got any, to my knowledge. I know the other two Klan groups
down there. I don't know under what names they operate. I know the
two gentlemen who are alleged to head them; I don't know the names.
The Chairman. Can we have their names? Do their names come
to you ?
3972 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Venable. One of them is named Mr. P. L. Morgan from Cou-
shatta and the other gentleman's name is M. H. Martin of Winnsboro.
I don't know how they operate down there.
The Chairman. Do I understand your testimony to be that, whereas
there is no Klavern as such, you do have members from these States ?
Mr. Venable. There is none that belongs to us. Now I have sent
those people maybe literature and I believe I sent them, they wanted
to see a charter, I sent them some charters, you know, maybe signed
or not signed or maybe my office did. Of course, we have never got
any dues ; they never report to us.
I don't know how they operate, how many they got ; no, sir.
The Chairman. Well, do you know, whatever individuals you dealt
with and sent charters to or communicated with or talked to, what
groups they do belong to now ?
Mr. Venable. They don't belong to us. I mean, I just have given
them a form or charter to go by if they wanted some printed.
The Chairjman, Is it a fact, it seems to be — what I am asking
about, from your observation and general knowledge, is whether the
United Klans of America is spreading out more prolifically than all
the other groups.
Mr. Venable. I find. Your Honor, that they are spreading out all
over the country. In fact, they have gone into Louisiana, Texas, and,
in fact, they have caused a lot of confusion down there and ill will
among these two groups that I have spoke of. They are not like
these two groups that I spoke of recent, them coming in there and
the method they operate from — sources, they told me.
The Chairman. Well, that is our information. That is the infor-
mation we have, that by far the largest group, the one in more States
and more areas of more States is the United Klans.
Mr. Venable. In my opinion, they are the largest.
The Chairman. That is all I asked for.
Mr. Venable. Yes ; that is my information, too.
The Chairman. Would you have, and I am just asking the question,
could we ultimately get, because we have to state this reliably, figures
as to the total number in the United Klans of America? Have you
heard that discussed ?
Mr. Venable. No, I have never heard that discussed. Your Honor.
They would keep that information secret from me, afraid it would
get among the other Klan groups.
The Chairman. There seems perhaps to be an inclination by some
leaders in the other direction, sort, of bragging about it.
Mr. Venable. Yes, they brag about having thousands in North
Carolina.
The Chairman. That is what I am talking about.
Mr. Venable. And you know, in other States, maybe Louisiana.
Now I heard Shelton say out of liis own mouth here a year or two
ago that "I set up 40 Klavems in Louisiana," which I am sure he did
not. I think he was bragging. He may have that many now.
The Chairman. We heard what he said as to his estimate of his
total membership.
Mr. Venable. He has never divulged that to me.
The Chairjvian. And it might have been on the exaggerated side?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3973
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir ; because usually it has been the custom to all
of the Klans, they don't like to set up a Klavern unless they have 25
or more. They don't like them too big because they get fighting among
themselves. Twenty-five ought to be a minimum and that is the
reason we have not been able to get off the ground.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this frank question. We have evi-
dence, information, that the United Klans of America pretty well
fights, and that they have a lot of drives, for defense funds, and so on ?
Mr. Venable. I have heard that, too, you know.
The Chairman. Have you heard also, perhaps, that all the funds
are not going to these defendants ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir; I heard that report from North Carolina.
The two gentlemen that I communicated and met in person one Sun-
day in South Carolina, just met them halfway, they pulled out of the
United for that reason. They told me that they would take up col-
lections, you know, donations as we call it, and pour it into the back of
a Cadillac and just drive off and make no accounting of it. He told
me they don't make people account of donations or anything.
The Chairman. That is exactly the type of testimony and evidence
1 am talking about.
Mr. Venable. That is the reason these gentlemen told me they quit
them. They are located and they are now with our Klan; they have
not been able to get oft' the ground up around Wilson and Monroe,
North Carolina. Now they told me that.
The Chairman. Incidentally, is there any particular State where a
fund-raising campaign in a cer^tain incident spread out throughout
the State and it is said that considerable money was picked up ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And it was distributed to those in trouble ?
Mr. Venable. Distributing to those Klaverns the people were en-
titled to the benefits, would not make accounting to them or would
not tell the local people there what went with the money, would not
give them any to operate on. I have tried to leave it to little places,
you know, the sum that set them up.
The Chairman. We have evidence, information, along that line.
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Wliich seems to be creating dissatisfaction among
their own ranks.
Mr. Venable. That is right.
The Chairman. They were left holding the bag.
Mr. Venable. Yes, and I have heard rumors and people talk about
they would collect initiation fees and never initiate the subjects, you
know. So that is not right.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Appell has one question.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Venable, could you identify for us the two men
that you met with in South Carolina ?
Mr. Venable. I could give you one of their names. His name is
Bill Brown from Wilson, North Carolina. The other gentleman I
would know him, I have got his name at the office; but I could not tell
you now, I don't know. But Mr. Bill Brown.
Mr. Appell. Would it be Roy Woodle ?
Mr. Venable. No, he is a tall-looking gentleman. I met him, about
your size, maybe a little taller, and about your age.
59-222 O — 67 — pt. 5 32
3974 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. Would his name have been Clark ?
Mr. Venable. That, I don't know. I mean, if you called it I
would recognize it. But I got it at my office, I would be glad to
furnish it to you or to the committee.
The Chairman. Does the name "Wilson" strike a bell anywhere?
Mr. Venable. That may be. Your Honor. It is from Wilson,
North Carolina, where these two gentlemen are from. And I believe
they are both in the insurance business, working in debits.
The Chairman. I was not necessarily referring to North Carolina.
Mr. Venable. I met these two gentlemen and their wives and Mr.
Hill one Sunday some 2 or 3 months ago. They wrote to me and
wanted to talk to me in reference to starting a Klan up there. They
pulled out of Shelton's and I met them there and they gave me the
information I told the committee about.
Mr. Manuel. Now, Mr. Venable, to get into another area, yesterday
you provided me with a document, a three-page document titled "Oath
of Allegiance, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan."
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. At this point, Mr, Chairman, I would like to have
this document entered as Exhibit E-1 into the record of this hearing.
The Chairman. All right. It will be printed in the record at this
point.
(Document marked "James Venable Exhibit No. E-1" follows:)
James Venable Exhibit No. E-1
OATH OF ALLEGIANCE
KNIGHTS OF THE KU KLUX KLAN
(You will place your left hand over your heart
and raise your right hand to heaven.)
OBEDIENCE
(You will say) 'I', (pronounce your full name and repeat after me) — In the
presence — of God and man — most solemnly pledge, — promise, and swear, — un-
conditionally— that I will faithfully obey — the Constitution and laws ; — and
will willingly conform to — all regulations, — usages and requirements — of the
* * * * — which do now exist — or which may be hereafter enacted ; — and will
render — at all time.s — loyal respect and steadfast support — to the I. A. of the
same; — and will heartily heed — all official mandates, — decrees, — edicts, — rul-
ings, and instructions — of the I. W. thereof. — I will yield prompt response — to
all summonses, — I having knowledge of same, — Providence alone preventing.
II
SECRECY
I most solemnly swear — that I will forever — keep sacredly secret — the signs, —
words and grip; — and any and all other — matters and knowledge — of
the * * * * — regarding which — a most rigid secrecy — must be maintained, —
which may at any time be — be [sic] communicated to me — and will never —
divulge same — nor even cause same to be divulged — to any person — in the whole
world, — unless I know postively — that such person — is a member of this order —
in good and regular standing ; — and not even then — unless it be for the best
interest of thes [sic] Order.
I most sacredly vow — and most postively swear — that I will not yield — to
bribery — flattery — threats — passion — punishment — persuasion — nor any entice-
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3975
ments whatever — coming from or offered by — any person or persons — male or
female, — for the purpose of — obtaining from me — a secret or secret informa-
tion— of the * * * * I ■will die — rather than divulge same. — So help me God.
Amen
(You may drop your hands)
( You will place your left hand over your heart and raise your hand to heaven. )
III
FIDELITY
(You will say) I, (pronounce your full name and repeat after me) Before God, —
and in the presence of — ^these mysterious *men, — on my sacred honor, — do
most solemnly — and sincerely pledge — promise and swear — that I will diligently
guard — and faithfully foster — every interest of the * * ♦ * — and will maintain —
its social cast and dignity.
I swear that I will not — recommend any person — for membei^ship in this Order —
whose mind is unsound — or whose reputation — I know to be bad — or whose
character is doubtful — or whose loyalty to our coimtry — is in any way question-
able. I swear that — I will pay promptly — all just and legal demands^ — made
ui>on me — to defray the expenses — of my Klan and this Order— when same are
due or called for. I Swear that — I will protect the property — of the * * * * —
of any nature whatsoever — and if any should be — intrusted to my keeping — I
will properly keep **** — or rightly use same ; — and will freely and promptly —
surrender same — on oflBcial demand, — or if ever — I am banished from — or vol-
untarily discontinue — my membership in this Order.
I swear that — I will most determinedly — maintain peace and harmony — in all
the deliberations — of the gatherings or assemblies — of the I. A. — and of any
subordinate jurisdiction- — or Klan thereof.
I swear that — I will most strenuously — discourage selfishness — and selfish politi-
cal ambition — on the part of myself — ^or any *man.
I swear that — I will never allow — personal friendship — blood or family relation-
ship— nor personal — political or professional prejudice — malice — or illwill — to
influence me — in casting my vote — for the election or rejection — of an applicate
[sic] for membership — in this Order — God being my helper.
Amen
(You may drop your hands)
IV
KLANISHNESS
(You will place your left hand over your heart and raise your right hand to
heaven. )
(You will say) I, (pronounce your full name and repeat after me) Most
solemnly pledge — promise and swear — that I will never — slander — defraud —
deceive — or in any manner wrong — 'the * * * * — a *man or a *man's family —
nor will suffer — the same to be done — if I can prevent it.
I swear that— I will be faithful — in defending and protecting— the home — repu-
tation and physical and business interests — of a *man and a *man's family.
I swear that — I will at any time — without hesitating — go to the assistance or
rescue — of a *man in any way ; — at his call — I will answer ; — I will be truly —
Klanish — toward Klansmen — in aU things honorable.
I swear that — I will not allow — any animosity — friction — nor ill will — to arise
and remain — between myself and a *man — ^but will be constant in my efforts — to
promote real Klanishness — among the members of this Order.
I swear that — I will keep secure — to myself — a secret of a *man — when same is
committed to me— in the sacred bond of Klansmanship — the crime of violating
this oath — treason against the U.S.A. — rape — malicious murder— alone
accepted [sic]. — I mosit solemnly — assert and affirm— that to the government-
of the U.S.A. — and any State thereof— which I may become a resident — I
sacredly swear — an unqualified allegiance — above any other and every kind of
government — in the whole world. — I here and now — pledge my life — my prop-
erty,—my vote — and my sacred honor— to uphold its flag— its constitution—
3976 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
and constitutional laws — and will protect, — defend — and enforce same to death.
I swear that — I will most zealously — and valiantly — shield and preserve — by
any and all — justifiable means and methods — the sacred constitutional rights —
and privileges — of free public schools — free speech — free press — separation of
church and state — liberty — white supremacy — just laws — and the pursuit of
happiness — against any encroachment — of any nature — by any person or per-
sons— political party or parties — religious sect or people — native naturalized or
foreign — or any race, color or creed — lineage or tongue whatsoever.
All to which — I have sworn by this oath — I will seal with my blood — Be thou my
witness — Almighty God.
Amen
( You may drop your hands)
Mr. Manuel. This copy, is this the same oath which is given to mem-
bers of the National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Venable. That oath is administered during initiation ceremony
at various stages of the initiation to the subjects ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your knowledge, is this same oath used
by any other Klan group ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I don't know. I don't know the United; but
the other, what we call recognized, legitimate Klans, use practically —
they use that same oath there. I know tlie South Carolina Klans use
it, Florida Klans.
Mr. Manuel. I would like to refer to the section of this document
which is entitled "Klanishness" and a brief sentence from it and ask you
several questions about it.
Mr. Venable. All right.
Mr. Manuel. I am quoting now :
I swear that I will keep secure to myself a sacret of a *maii when same is com-
mitted to me in the sacred bond of Klansmanship — the crime of violating this
oath — treason against the U.S.A. — rape — malicious murder — alone accepted [sic].
Would you please, for the committee, explain that portion of that
oath?
Mr. Venable. Well, in any matter pertaining to the Government,
any kind of treason, rape, or murder, it is the duty of the Klansman to
divulge that, you know, in any court of justice or in anybody that
might be investigated.
Mr. Manuel. Does the Klan consider it a crime to divulge anything
other than what you have just stated ?
Mr. Venable. I have instructed my people, in view of that oath, if
they are under investigation, if they know a crime has been committed
and they are not involved, for God's sake, give the information to the
authorities investigating.
I have also explained to them that they could stand on the fifth
amendment, you know. I hate for anybody to stand on the fifth
amendment. I would not prefer standing on it because I am not
ashamed.
Mr. Manuel. Well, let me put it another way. Is it considered a
crime within the Klan to divulge information other than what you
have stated, the exception : treason, rape, malicious murder ?
Mr. Venable. According to that oath, it would be. But I would
not hesitate and I would tell my clients, and my clients wliich are
under my jurisdiction, to divulge anything, not to do anything, but if
it involved any crime to come clear and clean with it.
Mr. Manuel. Well, Mr. Venable, what happens to a Klansman who
is known to have divulged information regarding either his Klan
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3977
activities, the identities of other members, or any other provision of
this particular oath ?
Mr. Venable. I have never said — I never have been a party where
they tried a Klansman for divulging information. I have sat where
they tried a Klansman for violating some law, you know, against the
public policy, you know, some statute law, or there may be some regula-
tion pertaining to the Klan.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, an incident occurred recently in Atlanta,
Georgia, involving the United Klans of America whereby they were
allowed — the public news media were allowed to attend and photo-
graph a so-called initiation ceremony of that organization.
Upon learning of this, public sources quoted you as saying words
to the effect that Calvin Craig should be executed. I would like for
you to explain to the committee what you meant by using this term
"executed."
Mr. Venable. Well, he ought to be banished from the Klan. It is
the ceremony of initiation ; it should not be divulged to the alien world.
There is nothing in it I would be scared for the alien world to be made
aware of, it is like the Masonic, it is ceremony, it should never be
divulged.
The Klansman takes an oath that he will not divulge those secrets ;
there is nothing that is very sacred in it, there is nothing that would be
harmful to humanity in any source whatsoever.
Mr. Manuel. Then I understand you to mean that you did not mean
that he should
Mr. Venable. No, not to be his head cut off or electrocuted,
banished forever from it because it is a secret like the Masonic Lodge ;
he should not divulge it out to the alien of the outside world.
The Chairman. May I make this comment? I have before me a
public document entitled "Ku-Klux Klan Hearings before the Com-
mittee on Rules, House of Representatives, Sixty-seventh Congress,"
back in 1921.
I refer to the testimony at that time before that committee of Mr.
William Joseph Simmons.
Mr. Venable. Yes.
The Chairman. That is the gentleman that you refer to ?
Mr. Venable. Yes; that is the gentleman that organized the Klan
in 1950.
The Chairman. He testified at some length, but I will come to this
part of his testimony referring to the oath obtaining at that time and
after the oath which is quoted in full, and it is necessarily too long for
me to quote in full — the windup passage, quoting from part of the oath :
"All to which I have sworn by this oath, I will seal with my blood, be thou my
witness, Almighty God. Amen !"
You will drop your hands.
That is a statement to the Klansmen?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
The Chairman. [Continues reading :]
Xow, I am concluding this in just a moment.
That is not part of the oath, that is the testimony of Mr. Simmons.
After the oath has been administered, there is the ceremony of dedication, and
this question is asked :
3978 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
"Sirs, have you assumed without mental reservation your oath of allegiance
to the invisible empire?"
He ansiwers, "Yes." Then this statement follows :
That is the words of the witnesses quoting from the oath.
"Mortal man can not assume a more binding oath ; character and courage
alone will enable you to keep it. Always remember that to keep this oath means
to you honor, happiness, and life ; but to violate it means disgrace, dishonor, and
death. May honor, happiness, and life be yours."
—significantly omitting "death."
Now, it is my information that this more ancient oath — or that part
referring to death — is not now included.
Mr. Venable. That is right, and I can say in my 41 years connected,
I have never known where any person, even though he violated that,
had ever been hung physically. His banishment ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. I understand that and that is my last question,
but would it come as a surprise to you that, at least in the minds of
present-day Klansmen, the violation of the oath could or would mean
that?
Mr. Venable. Well, it could with some of the people, you know,
nowadays, that some of them would do anything, they would burn me
up or if they knew I would divulge it, I mean they would have it done.
But I would not ever advocate that; no, sir.
The Chairman. I understand, but it would not surprise you?
Mr. Venable. No, it would not.
The Chairman. People that we have come in contact with still have
in mind the possibility of that ancient penalty resulting if they talk.
Mr. Venable. That is right.
The Chairman. And it would not surprise you either, would it,
that it makes our hearings and gathering of evidence slightly difficult?
Mr. Venable. That is right. That is the reason I have hesitated to
adopt fully the constitution, you know, because there are many changes
ought to be made in it, such as that oath and a number of other things
where we could bring it up to modem times of recognition and where
it would not be used as any threat, or could be used, that we use in
such a method.
That is the old, old oath there, yes ; and I am against that verbiage
there and I will change it.
The Chairman. But the point is that I think you and I know that,
in the minds of some people, that is still a possibility.
Mr. Venable. Yes.
The Chairman. And maybe there is more reality than mere feeling
about this as regards certain Klans under the leadership of certain
people, or members within a Klan, who are capable of such things.
Mr. Venable. Of taking such oath and might feel that they had to
live up to it and die or commit murder, you know, to protect it.
I would not want to be a party to it, and that is the reason that
many changes ought to be made. I didn't write that and had nothing
to do with it.
The Chairman. I understand.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Venable, is this, then, why this section of the oath
which Mr. Manuel read to you reads so clumsily because it says : "I
swear that I will keep secure to myself a secret of a[Klans]*man when
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3979
same is committed to me in the sacred bond of Klansmanship — ^the
crime of violating this oath," and then it goes to "treason against the
U.S.A. — rape — malicious murder — alone accepted [sic]."
The words are left in here "the crime of violating this oath," but
what the penalties of violating the oath are, are left out where they
should be right in there.
Mr. Venable. Well, if a man violates his oath by divulging any of
this, we would try him and banish him from the Klan, we would not
do any violence, and I would not be a party or tolerate that.
Mr. Appell. I realize that, but the thing I am saying: Was not
something left out in the oath from which this was copied and there-
fore this is the reason why this paragraph does not read clearly ?
Mr. Venable. I will be glad to give you a Kloran, you know, that
is the first degree, and I mean you maybe can find it. I believe in the
book that I gave you they had the obligations, you know. If you
look back in there, you know, I believe it was.
The Chazeman. Let me ask you this very frank, legal question.
Mr. Venable. Yes.
The Chairman. And I assume from what you said that the answer
probably would be in the negative because of what consequence you
said would result.
Is there any notion and any fixed idea, any advice by lawyers,
Imperial Wizards, or anyone to the effect that the taking of this oath,
to be perfedtly frank about it, could lay the foundation for a refusal
to answer questions before a committee or a court ?
Has any such defense ever been advanced ? I am curious to know.
I don't know of any.
Mr. Venable. No, I know of none. We have never discussed that.
All of them are familiar, most of them are, with the fifth amendment.
I may be called here with some of these people tTiat may be subpenaed
here as leaders and I certainly will do by best to aid this committee
and advise them ; we have got nothing to hide.
I would not want any of the secrets of our Klan divulged to the
alien world and I am sure
The Chairman. Let me assure you without any reservation, mental
or otherwise, that this committee completely respects the right to
invoke the fifth amendment of any witness. We do away with that
and we chop off a pretty good part of our Constitution. Now some
people always say the witness has a perfect right to invoke his rights in
the fifth amendment if he honestly feels, of course, that to speak would
subject him to criminal prosecution.
But having that honest feeling, we are not being overly technical
about it, we just respect it. But I always add, not coming from me,
that that is as far as I can go as a lawyer, that I attach nothing to the
invocation, but if in America some people feel differently about it and
I am accused as chairman of saying so, I don^t, so don't blame me for
it — if people feel that way, that is beyond my control.
Mr. Venable. Well, I feel the same way. il know I get a lot of
criticism in public being a Klansman and connected. I know they
have been persecuted, and some ought to have been persecuted, but
we should not be condemned, those that are trying to do right for
those that are not trying to do right, and those not doing right ought
to be prosecuted.
3980 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
I hold back and am hesitant to say that if any of them are goin^
out here and committino: a crime or violating somebody's rights we
all got to i^rotect the rights of others whether we like their way, and
I am upholding it and I want to see those prosecuted.
If the Klansman is going out here and murdering a bum or some-
thing, he had no riglit and it is a disgrace on our organization; he
ought to be prosecuted.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Venable, without taking the time to read the
Kloran
The Chairman. We liave a copy of that, do we ?
Mr. Appell. Yes. I have only scanned it, but these oaths are not
contained in the Kloran.
Mr. Venable. I will send you, if you will permit me, and I will
certify the full oaths of obligation, but I believe you will find the
obligation in this book here. I will leave it with the committee.
Mr. Appell. But I say the oaths are not a part of the Kloran.
Mr. Venable. Some of the Klorans carry it and some don't. Now
that is the oath of the K-UNO. There are four degrees in the Klan.
There are very few of them — I have had the honor of having thi*ee of
them. Number four I have never had, and I don't know of any
Klansman living that has ever had the fourth one. It takes 16 hours
and something to confer it and takes $40,000 worth of equipment,
and the Klan has not got it.
The Chairman. That is interesting.
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Can you spend 2 minutes in describing the degrees ?
Mr. Venable. Well, this is what they call a Border Realm, primary
grade of the first degree like in Masonic; it is an apprentice, you might
say. It is K-UNO. A Klansman taking that obligation, it takes
about an hour to confer it on him or her. After having that you are
just in the Border Realm. That is the reason we are having so much
trouble with the Klan people because of sheltered groups and many
others. If they ever get in the second and third degree, they will
know something how to respect the laws of our land and public offi-
cials. We have not had the facilities ; we are trying.
The second degree is a K-DUO, it takes several hours to confer that.
It is still another step up the ladder.
The third degree is K-TRIO, it will take 3 or 4, probably 4 hours to
confer that. It takes a lot of equipment to do that. We have not
had the people with the education and time to set up those degrees.
We are trying to get the second degree where we can confer that,
Mr. Hugh Morris and myself and Mr. Hill.
The fourth one is the K-QUAD. It has never been fully written or
completed. Colonel Simmons started it, and I think he practically
almost finished it and I think the gentleman from St. Petersburg, Dr.
Fowler, probably has the greater portion of it. I think you will find
it in the Congresslonnl Record here and in the Copyright Office, the
third degree of record here. I think Colonel Simmons registered it.
They may have been misplaced or destroyed. It is very sacred and
very long obligation.
The Chairman. Proceed.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3981
Mr. Venable. Under Dr. Evans I had those conferred, but I under-
stood they were not fully completed as Colonel Simmons had so set
them up.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Venable, you earlier had talked about being super-
seded in the trial in Griffin, Georgia, by an attorney by the name of
Bailey.
Mr. Venable. Well, I think he was a young lawyer. He sat in the
case when I tried it. I believe he is a lawyer, I am sure he is. I
understood he went over and maybe tried these cases or one of them ;
they had a mistrial in the city court there or the misdemeanor court
there.
Mr. Appell. What I would like to ask you is whether or not you
knew Mr. Bailey to be a member of the UKA ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I don't know whether he was or not. I never
did talk to him. In fact, the first time I met him was in this case. I
knew his father who was a lawyer ; he is now dead, maybe still living.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Venable, I attended a meeting in Williamston,
South Carolina, a Klan rally, at which you and Reverend Hill and
Granny Foster spoke. It appeared to me that you were there for the
purpose of trying to obtain recruits for the Association of South
Carolina Klans.
Mr. Venable. That is right. If I go into a State, if I go into Lou-
isiana or Florida or South Carolina, I don't go there to seek member-
ship, I go there to aid that group there, to seek membership, speak for
them.
Mr. Appell. I am interested to inquire as to why you and the Rev-
erend Hill and Granny
The Chairman. Who?
Mr. Appell. Granny Foster.
The Chairman. That is the lady ?
Mr. Appell. Yes.
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Appell. Wliy were you three the only three unmasked on the
podium ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I very seldom ever wear a mask, you know, un-
less it is in a Klavern. And occasionally, very seldom I ever wear it
out where they have a lease on the property. I have always been
against the wearing of a mask except in the Klavern. I am utterly
opposed to wearing it.
Mr. Appell. Now one thing that struck me with respect to your testi-
mony was that you were talking about liow some Klans just take people
and take them in the back of a truck and sign them up right then and
there.
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Appell. That is what they did at that rally there that night?
Mr. Venable. Well, I may not have made myself clear. I under-
stood that, down in Florida, they would take a man's money and swear
him in right there. Those people accepted his application and his
money, and he was not accepted and he was not initiated. Tliey would
have to carry him into a Klavern.
We do the same thing, we take him but we don't accept him until
that local body says they are okay.
3982 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. Now I think that you testified that Mr. Hodges was the
one of the delegates from the Association of South Carolina Klans to
the association.
Mr. Venable. Yes. He comes not too often. He usually sends a
representative or two representatives; there are three, you know.
Mr. Appell. Wlio else represents Mr. Hodges ?
Mr. Venable. Well, he has various ones. I believe a fellow named
Bolen may be one. A fellow, I believe his name may be Sims from
Columbia, South Carolina, a contractor of some type, maybe electrical
or something. He has at other times sent others in their place.
Mr. Appell. Who are your delegates from the United Florida
Klan?
Mr. Venable. Well, the main one that attends most of the time is
old man Kersey; he is called a Grand Dragon of Florida. Then
another one nanied is Walter Rogers, and sometimes they bring
another one with them, you know.
Mr. Appell. Well, Jason Kersey has not been coming recently be-
cause he is in rather bad health ?
Mr. Venable. Yes ; he has had a stroke and he cannot speak.
Mr. Appell. Who has been rej)lacing him as a delegate ?
Mr. Venable. Well, he was there the last time. You know we had
one the Sunday after we had the Stone Mountain rally. He was there
and Mr. Rogers, and he had some other gentleman, you know.
Mr. Appell. A man by the name of Stoudenmier ?
Mr. Venable. Stoudenmier, I believe. I have forgotten his name.
I believe he is from Jacksonville, Florida.
Mr. Appell. Yes ; and he has been a member of the United Florida
Klan for many, many years.
Mr. Venable. Well, I just met him just within the last year or two.
He may have. There are many of them that know me that I don't
know them.
Mr. Appell. Now what other Klaiis do you presently have within
your association ?
Mr. Venable. Well, we have the two groups that I spoke of.
The Chairman. From Coushatta and one from Winnsboro.
Mr. Venable. Yes; and then we have another one from Florida
known as Associated Klans of Georgia ^ headed by Charlie Maddox.
He is from Bloomingdale, Georgia. He has his delegates, and I be-
lieve one of his delegates acts as secretary a)t this delegation, Shearouse.
He is from Bloomingdale, Ted Shearouse.
Then let me see. Occasionally Mr. Earl George used to attend. He
has not been to the last two or three. Improved U.S., that is at
Georgia.
Then not this time, but the time before, then I believe we had the old
U.S. delegation and maybe one or two of them and a fellow named
Newman from Deltasville, Georgia, Clyde Newman. I believe he is
head, maybe the Imperial Wizard ; I don't know. There has been some
change in that organization.
Mr. Appell. Was not a man by the name of Jones, at one time ?
Mr. Venable. Jones at one time was the Imperial Wizard, and I
understood that he got to drinking within or something and didn't
attend or something there that they let him go.
1 Association of Georgia Klans.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3983
Mr. Appell. I see.
Mr. Venable. I know Jones, he lives at Jonesboro.
Mr. Appell. And you believe that Mr. Newman is now the Imperial
Wizard ?
Mr. Venable. I believe he acts there and I know Mrs. Edwards
is the head of the ladies' imit.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this question. There is information
that has come to us that in some Klan groups there is a very secretive
small nucleus, known primarily and perhaps exclusively only to the
Grand Wizard, who are assigned as they say in slang, "jobs," and so on.
Now they are variously referred to as terror groups, terror squads,
and so on, and it is pretty hard to reach, to get exactly, the truth as to
who they are, how many there are, what they do, who meets, who is
required to do what.
This is a matter of our information, and you can answer or not an-
swer this question. Are you aware of the existence of such ?
Mr. Venable. I don't know of any now, to my personal knowledge.
I know when I was a young Klansman I heard there was such what
we called a wrecking crew to make it plain ; yes.
The Chairman. Terror groups, wrecking groups, terror mobs, and
so on?
Mr. Venable. Yes; but I would not tolerate it. Being a lawyer
myself — and there could be such a group in mine, you know — but I
like to know if there is because I can destroy it some way and get
them out and banish them because I don't want anything, an3rthing
that hurts the Klan, it hurts me personally and they point the finger
at me as the cause so I don't want that to happen.
The Chairman. Are you aware of the existence of such groups in
other Klans?
Mr, Venable. Well, I don't know
The Chairman. I won't press you for an answer.
Mr. Venable. I don't know of any because they would, see, I have
no jurisdiction over the other groups. If it is in such groups, wrecking
crew as we might call them there, I don't know of it. It could be,
but they certainly would not let me know it, you know, not being
connected with it.
The Chairman. No, I doubt if they would. But we have incidents
which, when added together, pretty well spell out who they are even
though we don't get testimony telling specifically their names.
Mr. Venable. You have, no doubt, in many organizations people
that are going to violate the law, and we have to weed them out. I
know it is a problem, yes.
The Chairman. Well, beyond that, I meant as a matter of practice,
I am asking you.
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Appell. Recalling back in your young days and your knowl-
edge that there did exist such things as wrecking crews, it would be
only the members of the crew that would know the identity of the
crew members; is that right?
Mr. Venable. That is right.
3984 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. So, therefore, the average Klansman, while he might
understand there is a crew, he would know nothing about it?
Mr. Venable. He would not know who they were or what they do ;
they would keep it secret among themselves.
The Chairman. Well, have you heard that in certain Klan groups
ordinary members are given the honor "of performing the job," bomb-
ing, whatever, and that that is secret and that they, in turn, call for
assistance of comembers and that comembers are sort of honorbound
to assist?
Mr. Venable. I don't know of any such group in any Klan that
I have connection with or associate with. It could be, you know.
Mr. Manuel. With further regard, Mr. Venable, to the Association
of Klans, does the organization known as the Dixie Klans based in
Chattanooga, Tennessee, send delegates to the association meetings?
Mr. Venable. They used to, but we have not had any of them for,
you might say, a year, maybe longer; they dropped out. And they
were suspended or struck from the roll because they had not paid their
dues.
Mr. Manuel. Was there any reason other than
Mr. Venable. Not attending.
Mr. Manuel. Were there any reasons other than the nonpayment of
dues which caused their suspension from the association ?
Mr. Venable. Well, when they failed to come regular and we would
send some delegates and don't pay their dues, they are automatically
dropped or suspended.
Mr. Manuel. I see.
Now to your knowledge, Mr. Venable, to open another subject, where
do Klansmen obtain the robes which they wear in Klan functions?
Mr. Venable. Well, I mean the modern-day Klan, you are speak-
ing of?
Mr. Manuel. Yes; as of your knowledge at the present time.
Mr. Venable. At the present time, Klansmen, what few we got.
Granny Foster has made or had a few made for our group. My group
had them made. I think over there — made in Hartwell — made those
boys their robes, maybe they bought the cloth and maybe hired some
lady. I don't know Avho makes the other groups' robes.
Mr. Manuel. To your knowledge, has any member of your orga-
nization ordered robes and Klan garments from a firm known as the
Heritage Garment Works located in Columbia, South Carolina?
Mr. Venable. Not to my knowledge. Now them boys over in Hart-
well could have; I don't know whether they did or not. They could
have.
Mr. Manuel. Now, Mr. Venable, are you acquainted with an indi-
vidual named Wallace Butterworth?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Could you please tell the committee where and when
you first met Mr. Butterworth ?
Mr. Venable. I met him I believe with the United Klans.
Mr. Manuel. At the time of your meeting, did he hold an official
position with the United Klans?
Mr. Venable. The only official, if it was official, I think he was
publisher or aide to the })ul>lishing, or what he is known of the paper
the Fiery Cross.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3985
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever know him to hold the title of public
relations director of the United Klans and that title also carrying
with it a position on the Imperial Board of United Klans?
Mr. Venable. I mean to my knowledge, I didn't never hear it called
that. I knew he was a publisher or assistant publisher.
Mr. Manuel. Now, at the time of your meeting with Mr. Butter-
worth, were you yourself the Imperial Klonsel of United Klans?
Mr. Venable. At that time, I don't believe I was. I believe at the
time I was connecting with Mr. Hugh Morris and maybe Earl George,
you know, at that time. He may have attended one or two meetings
where I acted as chairman under the old Klan organization, you know,
association.
Mr. Manuel. Well, did there come a time when, to your knowledge,
Mr. Butterworth left the United Klans of America ?
Mr. Venable. Yes, he left the United Klans of America. He said
that they didn't have any money to publish the paper and could not
feed him.
Mr. Manuel. Was he, to your knowledge, a paid employee of the
United Klans?
Mr. Venable. I understood he got some money ; I don't know what
or maybe his meals and a place to sleep and cigarette money ; I don't
know whether he got a salary or not.
(At this point Mr. Weltner entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Manuel. Now subsequent to your meeting with Mr. Butter-
worth, did you participate in the formation and organization of an
organization known as the Defensive Legion of Registered Americans,
Inc?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Would you please tell the committee what function
you played in the organization of that ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I was president of it. He made some records,
phonograph records. He was a former broadcaster for the NBC radio,
worked with them for some years.
Mr. Manuel. Wliat relation, if any, did the United Klans of Amer-
ica have with the Defensive Legion of Registered Americans?
Mr. Venable. Not any whatsoever, you know.
Mr. Manuel. Did any other Klan group have an official or un-
official relationship with the Defensive Legion of Registered
Americans ?
Mr. Venable. Well, no other Klan group except, you might say,
need me in connection with United, I mean the National Knights of
the Ku Klux Klan, but they were two different and distinct corpora-
tions. The money was separate and everything.
Mr. Manuel. Very briefly, Mr. Venable, what were the purposes
of the Defensive Legion ?
Mr. Venable. Well, it was to make phonograph records and sell
them and it turned out to be a failure.
Mr. Manltel. Was the primary purpose, as I understand it then, to
sell records ?
Mr. Venable. Phonograph records on different subjects; yes.
Mr. Manuel. Wlio financed the manufacture of these records ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I financed it, you know, which it costs me
money.
3986 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Manuel. To the best of your memory, how much money was
involved in that ?
Mr. Venable. I don't know. I made the income tax report; in
fact, I had to buy the equipment, the machines, you know, and I had
to sign a note. The note financed it, we paid it off monthly and when
we stopped it, why, he had taken the machines and equipment.
Mr. Manuel. Where, then, were the records manufactured?
Mr. Venable. In Cincinnati, Ohio. I believe Rite Record Com-
pany.
Mr. Manuel. The Rite Record Company ?
Mr. Venable. Right, I believe, R-i-t-e.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Butterworth, in connection with his manu-
facture of records, also broadcast under the auspices of the Defensive
Legion on the radio in the area ?
Mr. Venable. He broadcast maybe one or two broadcasts.
Mr. Manuel. Would you tell the committee who arranged for the
time to be purchased from the radio station ?
Mr. Venable. He and I went up there and talked to a fellow by the
name of John Fulton what we called the Big Gun station in Dekalb
County, Georgia.
Mr. Manuel. When were these broadcasts terminated?
Mr. Venable. Oh, I think he made about three or four broadcasts,
and the radio people cut him off. We didn't have a written contract ;
we just make a week or something like that.
Mr. Manuel. Wliat was the reason again more specifically why
the radio station cut him off ?
Mr. Venable. I don't know ; they didn't give any excuse. I guess
it was too vile, not vulgar language, but too bitter-mouthed against
subjects.
Mr. Manuel. Approximately how much money did the Defensive
Legion realize from the sale of records ?
Mr. Venable. It is all on records ; I filed income tax. They didn't
realize much because of the postage and handling taking practically
all. Manufacture the records, get them out, a lot of them would be
broken, a lot of them would not be delivered, some people would not
pay for them.
Mr. Manuel. Now, to the best of your recollection, when was the
last time you had any contact with Mr. Butterworth ?
Mr. Venable. Oh, it has been probably a year, a year or more. 1
understood he left and went to Alabama and now I understand he is
with a sister in Pennsylvania, Swartlmiore; some place in Pennsyl-
vania near Philadelphia, Swarthmore or something.
Mr. Manuel. Were you also involved in an organization known as
the Christian Voters and Buyers League ?
Mr. Venable. Well, that was just a trade name. It worked in con-
nection with the record business.
Mr. Manuel. Was Mr. Butterworth also involved ?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Did he hold an official position in this venture ?
Mr. Venable. Well, he was made secretary of it.
Mr. Manuel. Wliat was your position, sir ?
Mr. Venable. President and treasurer.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3987
Mr. Manuel. Wliat were the activities of the Christian Voters and
Buyers League with regard to raising finances ?
Mr. Venable. Well, we had literature on different subjects, the
same as the record buys. It all worked in connection with the record
buys.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Venable, were you also associated with an orga-
nization known as the Committee of One Million Caucasians to March
on Washington ?
Mr. Venable. Well, I was associated with that; yes. That was just
a season, you know, when they were going to have a march here on
Washington.
Mr. Manuel. What was the purpose of this organization, briefly ?
Mr, Venable. Well, to oppose the civil rights bill, that was the
purpose of it, when it was in the making or before Congress.
Mr. Manuel. What action did this organization propose to fight
the civil rights bill ?
Mr. Venable. Well, similar to the Negroes having their march there,
thought maybe by having the march we could have some effect on the
Congress and might eliminate some portions of it.
Mr. Manuel. Could you identify the organizations which partici-
pated in the Committee of One Million ?
Mr. Venable. Well, these various people throughout the country,
you know, was interested in it.
Mr. Manuel. Specifically, did any Klan organizations participate ?
Mr. Venable. 200 attended here — what did you say ?
Mr, Manuel. I said specifically did any Klan organizations partic-
ipate in this ?
Mr. Venable. I don't know only about maybe three or four Klans-
men participated, myself, Mrs, Foster.
The Chairman. Klansmen or Klan groups?
Mr. Venable. Klan groups, only about three or four members that I
know of, (Some gentleman said he was a Klansman from Florida, I
didn't know him, he was here. Myself and Mrs. Foster and maybe two
others from Georgia, I don't know,
Mr, Manuel. Did George Lincoln Rockwell of the American Nazi
Party participate in this committee and, if so, would you explain what
was the extent of his participation ?
Mr. Venable. He wanted to participate in it, and we met at the
hotel, I believe they call it the Sheraton Park Hotel, And we didn't
invite him because we had nothing to do with him because we were
afraid he would get us in trouble,
I approached him, I understood he had a lease, a peraiit, to use
some of the District land here near Lincoln Memorial somewhere to
see if he would not let us use it. He told me he would, but we found
out that he — first he told me he would allow us to use it and then late-r
on he wanted to participate in it, and I knew that that would never
do, so we didn't participate; we held our meeting in the hotel as 1
spoke of a few minutes ago,
Mr. Manuel, To your knowledge, did Mr, Rockwell go through
with the planned demonstration ?
Mr, Venable. I understand he did go through with it, but I didn't
participate, didn't go over there, I didn't want to get mixed up with
3988 ACTIVITIES OF KD KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
him ; I have known him for a nnmber of years, having seen him. He
come through Atlanta ; I have seen liim around there where they have
some meetings, yes.
The Chairman. About what period of time was that? Was that
during the consideration of the civil rights bill ?
Mr. Venable. Just before the civil rights bill.
The Chairman. The latest?
Mr. Venable. The latest, the one that passed here in July.
The Chairman. Last year.
Mr. Venable. Maybe the second or third of July.
Mr. Manuel. Our records indicate that took place July 4, 1964.
Mr. Venable. I believe the bill was signed on the 3d. We got here
too late.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Venable, was tliis at the same time when Bob Shel-
ton was planning to participate in it, also, and his plane crashed ?
Mr. Venable. No ; none of his groups was going to part-icipate, to
my knowledge. He crashed over in South Carolma, I tliink, on a
mission going to some Klan rally or setting up a Klan rally.
Mr. Appell. It was my understanding they were en route here.
Mr. Venable. No; he was not known to participate or any of his
leaders, to my knowledge.
Mr. Appell. Of course, he wound up in a hospital, and his pilot got
killed.
Mr. Venable. No, he w^as not going to participate, to my knowledge.
I had no knowledge he w^as going to participate. He was not invited.
The Chairman. In other words, this was an anti-civil rights move-
ment?
Mr. Venable. Civil rights movement opposing the passage of the
bill. Your Honor, and we got here too late. We planned it and found
out you could not get the grounds on July 4, it was too late, we had
already announced it.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, in view of the time the staff has no
further questions at this time of the witness.
The Chairman. Mr. Weltner.
Mr. Weltner. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Buchanan ?
Mr. Buchanan. No.
The Chairman. Mr. Venable, we appreciate your attendance very
much.
Mr. Venable. And I appreciate being here.
The Chairman. I understand that you came here voluntarily.
Mr, Venable. Yes.
The Chairman. And not under subpena ?
Mr. Venable. Yes.
The Chairman. I have discussed this Avith the members next to me,
respectively, and I think I ought to say this: You refer to certain
records you had and even offered to make them available.
Mr. Venable. Yes.
The Chairman. Well, I can do no less under the situation than to
have an examination of some of the records.
Mr. Venable. I would be glad
The Chairman. It is my view that the way to do it is to serve a
subpena duces tecum, and it can be worked out as agreeably as pos-
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3989
sible. I mean by that, all the way around for you and the committee,
tliat would probably be the better procedure.
Mr, Venable. I would be glad to furnish any information, names.
I trust that nobody will, you know — it is embarrassing to people, you
know, to go to their home and job and find out if they are a Klansman.
The Chairman. We have to make a record.
Mr. Venable. I know it.
The Chairman. You see, this investigation was ordered by the full
committee.
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. By unanimous action of both parties.
Mr. Venable. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Kepublican on my right and Democrat on my left.
Mr. Venable. Both of them are good people. I voted Kepublican,
but I am a Democrat.
The Chairman. And then, too, following the decision of the full
committee, by unanimous action — I was very cautious, the committee
was — on instructions of the committee, I introduced a resolution to get
funds to conduct this investigation, which was an indirect but a pretty
sure way to test the will of the House. And, of course, the House
has approved this, and we have to make a record.
Mr. Venable. Well, I realize that and I have welcomed an investi-
gation of it because I have nothing to hide.
The Chairman. I understand.
Mr. Venable. And I think it ought to be investigated because if
there is something wrong with certain groups they ought to be
destroyed or exposed, but I don't think that those that are trying to do
right ought to be persecuted.
The Chairman. On the question of subpena, I didn't want you to
go back home and then get a subpena duces tecum signed by me.
Mr. Venable. I will be glad to furnish any information I have.
The Chairman. Both you and the committee are glad.
Mr. Venable. Yes.
The Chairman. Maybe you can.
Mr. Venable. Because this gentleman here come to my office and
took up some time, I mean he can tell you I cooperated to the fullest
extent.
The Chairman. We certainly appreciate it.
Mr. Venable. Gave him information he probably could not have
gotten elsewhere.
The Chairman. We appreciate your attitude.
The committee will stand in recess until the call of the Chair.
( Wliereupon, at 3 :45 p.m., Wednesday, October 6, 1965, the subcom-
mittee recessed, subject to the call of the Chair.)
59-222 O— 67— pt. 5 33
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN ORGANIZATIONS
IN THE UNITED STATES
Part 5
FRIDAY, JANUARY 28, 1966
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-Ajierican Activities,
Washington, D.G.
EXECUTIVE session^
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
at 10 a.m., in Room 429, Cannon House Office Building, Washington,
D.C., Hon. Richard H. Ichord presiding.
(Subcommittee members: Representatives Edwin E. Willis, of
Louisiana, chairman ; Richard H. Ichord, of Missouri ; and John M.
Ashbrook, of Ohio.)
Subcommittee members present : Representatives Ichord and Ash-
brook.
Staff members present: Francis J. McNamara, director; William
Hitz, general counsel; Alfred M. Nittle, counsel; and Donald T.
Appell, chief investigator.
Mr. Ichord. The subcommittee will come to order.
The purpose of the committee meeting today is to hear Mr. George
Otto, who, I understand, was first subpenaed October 19, 1965.
At the outset of the hearing I will read a letter for the record from
the chairman of the full committee, Mr. Willis, dated January 28,
1966, to Mr. Francis J. McNamara, director of the Committee on
Un-American Activities :
Pursuant to the provisions of the law and the Rules of this Committee, I here-
by appoint a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities con-
sisting of Honorable Richard Ichord and Honorable John M. Ashbrook as asso-
ciate members, and myself, as Chairman, to conduct hearings in Washington,
D.C., on Friday, January 28, 1966, as contemplated by the resolution adopted
by the Committee on the 30th day of March, 1965, authorizing hearings concern-
ing the activities of the various Ku Klux Klan organizations in the United States.
Please make this action a matter of Committee record.
If any member indicates his inability to serve, please notify me.
Given under my hand this 28th day of January, 1966.
It is signed "Edwin E. Willis, Chairman, Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities."
Mr. Willis is not present today, and as the ranking majority member
of the subcommittee, I will be performing the duties of the Chair.
1 Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.
3991
3992 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S.
Let the record show that a quorum is present with Congressman
John M. Ashbrook and myself constituting a majority of the sub-
committee.
Mr. Appell, the witness has not been sworn; is that correct?
Mr. Appell. Not today and I suggest we administer a new oath.
Mr. IcHORD. Raise your hand, sir. Do you solemnly promise
and swear that the testimony you are about to give before this com-
mittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Otto. I do.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE ALVIN OTTO
Mr. IcHORD. Be seated, sir.
Before Mr. Appell begins interrogation of the witness I would like
to inquire as to whether you have been furnished a copy of the state-
ment of the chairman of the committee, Mr. Willis? I am referring
to his statement of October 19, 1965.
Mr. Appell. The mimeographed statement.
Mr. Otto. No ; I have not.
( Discussion off the record and brief recess. )
(At this point Representative Buchanan entered the hearing room.)
Mr. IcHORD. Let the record show that the committee has been
briefly in recess while the witness has been given the opportunity to
read the statement of the chairman of the committee of October 19,
1965. Before Mr. Appell begins questioning, I would like to ask the
witness if he has had the opportunity to read the statement of October
19, 1965.
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. IcHORD. Do you understand the statement ?
Mr, Otto. Yes.
Mr. IcHORD. Have you been advised of your right to have counsel
before the committee ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. IcHORD. And I understand you have consulted with counsel
before at a previous meeting of the committee ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. IcHORD. You understand that you do have the right to have
counsel, but you have not chosen to avail yourself of that right ?
Mr. Otto. That is true.
Mr. IcHORD. I would like also to advise the witness of his right to
invoke the fifth amendment if he feels that any question asked by
the interrogator might tend to incriminate him. You underetand you
have the right to invoke the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. IcHORD. With those preliminary questions out of the way, Mr.
Appell may proceed.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Otto, state your full name for the record.
Mr. Otto. George Alvin Otto.
Mr. Appell. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Otto. Evansville, Indiana, September 2, 1930.
Mr. Appell. Would you give for the record a brief resume of your
employment background ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3993
Mr. Otto. I worked for Kingan and Company, Indianapolis, In-
diana, from February 1950 to April 1951. I worked for Western
Electric from May 1951 to January 1952 ; for RCA from January to
February 1952; P. R. Mallory Company from February 1952 to Sep-
tember 1952 ; T. & N. O. Railroad Company, September 1952 to No-
vember 1957 ; Continental Emsco, October 1958 to May 1960 ; Terminal
Railroad Association, May 1960 to October 1961 ; Houston Belt and
Terminal Railroad Company, October 1961 to the present.
Mr. Appell. In addition to your employment do you operate a sale
and exchange of used coins and stamps, a business of that type?
Mr. Otto. Not at the present time.
Mr. Appell. For what period of time were you engaged in that
business ?
Mr. Otto. It is hard to place a date exactly.
Mr. Appell. Just roughly.
Mr. Otto. We were collectors, and as collectors various swapping
and selling of coins has been an intermittent procedure with us.
Mr. Appell. What is the extent of your formal education ?
Mr. Otto. High school graduate.
Mr. Appell. In what year ?
Mr. Otto. I graduated in January 1948.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Otto, I hand you a copy of an application for
membership in the United Klans of America, Inc. Did you ever ex-
ecute an application similar to that ?
Mr. Otto. Similar.
(Document previously marked "Richard Constantineau Exhibit No.
3.") ]
Mr. Appell. When did you execute such an application ?
Mr. Otto. The 1st of April 1965; the first week of April 1965.
Mr. Appell. Can you tell the committee briefly what led up to your
signing an application for membership in the United Klans of
America ?
Mr, Otto. I wrote a letter to Tuscaloosa, Alabama, United Klans of
America, Suite 401, Alston Building, and requested information.
About 10 days after I requested this information, a Mr. William B.
Drennan called upon my home with an application form.
Mr. Appell. You gave Drennan's middle initial as "B." Other
places I have seen it, it is "H."
Mr. Otto, I am not certain.
Mr. Appell. I think the record ought to eliminate the middle initial.
Mr. Otto. If you would like.
Mr. Appell. What happened after Mr. Drennan called upon you ?
Mr. Otto. Well, I signed an application, and Mr. Drennan informed
me there was a meeting in his house every Monday night at, I think,
7 o'clock and that I should try to appear at these meetings that he
would have at his home.
Mr. Appell. Let me show you a reprint of a series of oaths that
are administered to members of the United Klans of America — al-
though not in this form, this is a copy made by the committee — and
ask if you ever subscribed to a series of oaths similar to those.
Mr. Otto. At the time that I was to be sworn in, Mr. Drennan read
me such an oath and asked me would I take this oath and I nodded
"yes."
3994 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
(Document previously marked "Robert Shelton Exhibit No. 4.")
Mr. Appell. Then did you go through a formal swearing in, or was
it your agreement to take a fulfillment of Drennan's requirements?
Mr. Otto. I never actually took the oath as far as raising my hand
or repeating the oath. I took it only morally. I more or less ac-
cepted it.
Mr. iVppF.LL. As a newly admitted member of the United Klans of
America, you never went through what they call a naturalization
ceremony ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. IcHORD. Are you offering that as an exhibit ?
Mr, Appell. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask that the documents
be introduced at the place they are exhibited.
Mr. IcHORD. If there is no objection, the documents will be identified
and marked as exhibits. Is there any objection ?
So admitted.
(At this point Mr. Buchanan left the hearing room.)
Mr. Appell. After agreeing to become a member of the United
Klans of America, were you required to pay an initiation fee?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. What were your dues that the Klavern charged to which
you were assigned eventually ?
Mr. Otto. There were none.
Mr. Appell. No dues ?
Mr. Otto. No dues.
Mr. Appell. What disposition was made of the application that you
signed, to your knowledge ?
Mr. Otto. To my knowledge, it has been torn up.
Mr. Appell. Were you known within the Klavern or group to which
you were assigned by your name or by number ?
Mr. Otto. By my name.
Mr. Appell. By your name.
At the meetings you attended, was there a rollcall read off by the sec-
retary and did members respond by their names ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. When did you start attending meetings of the United
Klans of America ?
Mr. Otto. About the second week of April 1965.
Mr. Appell. And these meetings were held at the residence of Wil-
liam Drennan?
Mr. Otto. That is correct.
Mr. Appell. How many members were there of this group at the
time you first joined it?
Mr. Otto. The attendance at the meetings would range from 4 mem-
bers to approximately 10.
Mr. Appell. Do you know what the full membership was?
Mr. Otto. No, I don't.
Mr. Appell. At the time you joined in April 1965, had a charter
been issued to the State of Texas for the formation of a unit in Texas?
Mr. Otto. No ; it had not.
Mr. Appell. At the time you joined, did you know Jerry Walraven ?
Did you ever get to know him as a member of the United Klans ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3995
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. Do you possess any knowledge that he was one of the
original organizers along with Drennan in the State of Texas?
Mr, Otto. Only hearsay. I understand from newspaper accounts
he was a member.
Mr. Appell. Was the group to which you were assigned at the time
you were assigned to it of sufficient strength that they had received a
charter as a Klavern ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. Did the group ever reach sufficient strength to get a
charter ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. When did it get a charter ?
Mr. Otto. The particular unit that Mr. Drennan was heading was
later taken over by a Mr. Rosalee B. Sell, oh, about, somewhere in the
latter part of August, and at this time it was charter strength.
Mr. Appell. What was the designation of the Klavern to which this
charter was issued ?
Mr. Otto. Do you mean by number ?
Mr. Appell. By number or by name.
Mr. Otto. I don't know what the number or name was.
Mr. Appell. What did you call yourselves as a group? To make
myself clear, in many jurisdictions we find names of Klaverns such
as Betterment Association or Gun and Rifle Club.
Mr. Otto. I don't think Mr. Sell's group had a name. There is
only one other group that I know that actually uses a cover name.
Mr. Appell. And what group is that ?
Mr. Otto. That is a group out in Jacinto City.
Mr. Appell. By what name is it known ?
Mr. Otto. Jacinto Committee for Law and Order.
Mr. Appell. We will come back to the Jacinto City Klavern.
When your Klavern, the one to which you were assigned, came to
sufficient strength to obtain a charter, who became its elected officers ?
Mr. Otto. Well, let's go back a little way. I was never actually
assigned to any Klavern in itself. Mr. Sell w^as appointed by Mr.
Drennan to head the group that Mr. Drennan used to head. Actually
I was more or less in the administrative field. I was not assigned in
any unit.
Mr. Appell. Are you saying after it became charter strength you
do not know the identity of the officers that were elected ?
Mr. Otto. Mr. Rosalee B. Sell was the exalted cyclops and Mr.
Frank Converse was the treasurer. Mr. Tommy B. Harrison— just
make it Tommy Harrison. I am not sure of his middle initial — was
the secretary, and at the present time I believe this is all the officers
they have in that particular group.
Mr. Appell. To what strength did this unit attain ?
Mr. Otto. At its greatest strength, about 50 members.
Mr. IcHORD. Of what period of time are you talking, Mr. Otto?
Mr. Otto. A period from September to November 1965.
Mr. IcHORD. In November 1965, you knew it had a membership
of about 50 members ?
Mr. Otto. About 50.
3996 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. Has it maintained this, or has its membership
declined ?
Mr. Otto. It has declined.
Mr. Appell. At the last information you possess, what was its
membership ?
Mr. Otto. Due to circumstances within the organization, the mem-
bership has declined, in my estimation, to approximately 10 member?.
(At this point Mr. Buchanan returned to the hearing room.)
Mr. Appell. When you joined, you were given administrative re-
sponsibility. Will you explain to the committee what your admin-
istrative responsibilities were and how you received the appointment
to carry out these duties ?
Mr. Otto. I was appointed, along with a Bobby Mead of Galveston,
Texas, to assist Mr. Drennan in the recruiting of new membership. I
guess that would be about it.
Mr. Appell. Wlio gave you the appointment ?
Mr. Otto. Mr. Drennan.
Mr. Appell. What appointment had Mr. Drennan received in order
to delegate authority to other people to carry out responsibilities ?
Mr. Otto. He was designated as State representative.
Mr. Appell. How long did you continue the duties of organization
and, in connection with these duties, did you receive the title of
kleagle, or organizer — what title did you receive ?
Mr. Otto. I continued on with Mr. Drennan until about the first
week in September. At this time there was a split in the organization.
Half the organization went with me and half went with Mr. Drennan.
I actually received the title of kleagle from Mr. Robert Shelton, Sep-
tember 18, 1965.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Otto, the subpena served upon you called for the
production of certain books and records. Do you have any books and
records which relate to any responsibilities you had, or correspondence
with any of the individuals in connection with this organization ?
Mr. Otto. I have some of the literature that we have distributed.
Also I have a few of the letters of which I had carbon copies.
Mr. Appell. Will you present them to the committee in accordance
with that subpena ?
(The documents were supplied.)
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, I suggest, with the permission of the
chairman that we make a listing of these for the record and I will do
this with Mr. Otto, and we will make copies of those documents sub-
niitted by Mr. Otto and return the documents which he submitted to
him.
Mr. IcHORD. The Chair will direct Mr. Appell to meet with the wit-
ness and identify these documents that are being turned over by the
witness to the committee, make a list of them, and give Mr. Otto a
receipt for the identified documents.
Mr. Appell. You stated that in September you received a formal
appointment from the Imperial Wizard Shelton to that of kleagle.
Mr. Otto. That is correct.
Mr. Appell. How long did you maintain the position of kleagle?
Mr. Otto. Until December 11,1965.
Mr. Appell. And what happened on December 11, 1965 ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3997
Mr. Otto. I resigned.
Mr. Appell. Would you tell the committee what caused your resig-
nation on December 11, 1965 ?
Mr. Otto. December 11, 1965, there was an election of State officers
in the State of Texas. At this time I was tired of receiving com-
plaints; tired of the confusion; tired of the turmoil, the problems,
within the organization ; tired of having my telephone lines tapped,
my mail filtered and stolen, my automobile insurance canceled, and my
job of my wife and myself in jeopardy. And besides that, it was cost-
ing me a fortune to stay in the organization and it seemed like at this
time things should have gone along the lines that I was hoping they
would go.
Mr. Appell. And along what lines were you hoping the organization
would go as compared to the lines that it actually followed ?
Mr. Otto. Well, I was hoping that the organization would continue
along the lines of a Christian, fraternal type of organization, strictly
nonviolent.
Mr. Appell. And along what lines did you experience that the or-
ganization took ?
Mr. Otto. Shortly after the election of State officers, the newly
elected Grand Dragon, Mr. Royce McPhail of Crockett, Texas, ad-
mitted back into the organization several groups of people that I had
managed to eject from the organization.
Mr. Appell. Who were these people that were readmitted and what
were the reasons you had arranged for their ejection ?
Mr. Otto. Accepted back into the organization was a Mr. Rosalee B.
Sell, of Houston, Texas; Mr. Bobby Mead of Galveston, Texas; Mr.
Jerry McCraw of Beaumont, Texas. Those were the groups that
we had ejected.
Mr. Appell. Now, what were the reasons you had ejected them?
Mr. Otto. Mr. Sell was relieved of his responsibility as unit leader
sometime in October, I believe it was, because of complaints received
about Mr. Sell and his wife and
Mr. Appell. Mr. Otto, let me interrupt you here. Perhaps a copy
of a document which you turned over to us in accordance with the
subpena might help straighten this whole thing out.
One of the documents that you gave us is a form letter dated Decem-
ber 23, 1965, and it is addressed "TO ALL KLANSMEN IN THE
STATE OF TEXAS," and while there is no signature on this, I as-
sume from the language that you are the author of it. It reads as
follows :
For personal reasons, I sent a letter of registration to his majesty Robert M.
Shelton announcing my resignation to be effective at 12:01 AM on the morning
of December 11, 1965. This time and date was to coincide with the date and
time that Texas became a realm. My resignation reflects upon no man in this
organization, nor was it because of anyone in the organization.
I have in my possession, taped conversations of the following men ; John
Aspinwall, Rosalee Sell, Bobby Mead, Bob Rutland, Royce McPhail, Frank
Langston and several of his men. Fnank Converse, Robert Shelton, El Paso secret
unit leader of Drennan's, J. M. Edwards.
As some of you know, these tapes were made not only upon my telephone but
upon other members phones. These tapes were made for the sole purpose of
ejecting the bad elements from the organization.
3998 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S.
I have found that 6 men were responsible for all the trouble in the state of
Texas. "William B. Drennan, Rosalee Sell, Bobby Mead, Wilson —
not further identified—
Jerry McCraw, Bob Rutland.
The only man of these to make effort to join our group before we became
a realm was Bob Rutland.
I consider any of the other 5 men to be a detriment to the organization and
would contaminate it by their presence. It would lead the organization to a
path of destruction if any of the 5 mentioned men are to be admitted as members.
My hopes is for the organization to grow and to prosper, to become a political
power in itself, although I choose not to remain a member, I shall always be with
you in spirit, and I want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy New
Year.
Now, the tapes of conversations which you announced in this docu-
ment that you have, do you still have them ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
(Document marked "George Otto Exhibit No. 1" appears on p.
39:99.)
Mr. Appell. What disposition did you make of them, erase them ?
Mr. Otto. With music. I recorded music over the top of the voices.
Mr. Appell. Now, what was the general content of these tapes as it
applied to William Drennan ?
iMr. Otto. It was statements made by people witliin the Drennan
organization, or having affiliation with the Drennan organization, as
to the type of organization which Mr. Drennan was putting together.
Mr. Appell. Was this a type of organization which intended to
carry out whatever the Unit-ed Klans of America stood for by acts of
intimidation, threat, and violence rather than by political action as you
envisioned the purpose of the organization to be ?
Mr. Otto. Mr. Drennan advocated intimidation and violence, and
there were intimidations made upon myself and my wife and other
members of our organization by the Drennan organization.
Mr. Appell. Merely because you disagreed with their program and
policies?
Mr. Otto. That is correct.
Mr. Appell. What was the nature of the threats made against you ?
Mr. Otto. Mr. Wilson, who was a member of the Drennan organiza-
tion, phoned my home one evening and asked me if I was going to con-
tinue to present rallies, and I informed Mr. Wilson that I was. I was
going to continue to speak at rallies and was going to continue to put
them off. Mr. Wilson threatened bodily harm to my wife if I should
continue.
Mr. Appell. In other words, all the rallies that were to be put on
should be put on by the Drennan organization rather than by your
group ?
Mr. Otto. No. We were the only ones putting on the rallies. The
Drennan organization had declared our organization illegal. If you
will notice in the records that I gave you, there is a letter in there from
a Mr. Campbell of Galveston, Texas. At the time we were having
trouble witli Mr. Sell and his wife and her big mouth, I relieved Mr.
Sell of his duties as exalted cyclops of his unit, and this Drennan
group at that time was going to try to forcibly eject me from the
organization and all people who followed me.
I refused to attend this meeting as did most of the other people in
Houston, and it was attended only by, I think, 10 men in the entire
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 3999
George Otto Exhibit No. 1
TO ALL ELAH5MEV IH IfiB STlTB OP TEXASf
Tor p«rtoDaI rensona, I s«nt a l*tt«r of realgtxatlon to
his najaaty Robart M. Shalbon anaounolng my rasigoatlon to ba
• ffaotiva at ISiOI A«f on the morning of December 11, I065.
Thla tlma and data «aa to oolDolda «lth the data and tine that
Tazas oeoair.e a reala, Ky raal> nation rafleota ucpn io men
In thla organisation, nor waa It booauaa of anyone In the organ! ?.a&!on.
■•B|
I have in my potaaaalon, tapad oon^araatlon* of tha following
John Aaplnwall J.M. Edwards
Roaalaa Self i
Bobby Maad
Bob Rutland
Royoe Mo?hall
Frank Lefitt^-aton and aavaral of M.i men.
Frank Convaraa
Robert Sh^lton
Bl Paao aeorat unl% I*«dar of Drennan* a
At SOB* cf yoa koov, thaaa tapea m«v i&ada not only upon my teiaphona
but upon other mtnbera phonea. Thaae tapea wera made for the sole
purpoaa of ajeatlng tha bad alaaenta froa the organlaatlon.
I have found tha% • man apera reaponalbla for all the trouble In
ttia atata of Texas.
Wllllan P. Dronn«B
Roaalae 3alfi
Bobby Mead
Wllaon
Jerry Mo Or aw 2
Bob Rutland
Tb* only nan of thaaa to aak* effort to Join evr group before wa
baoaee a realm waa Bob Rutland.
1 oonalder any of tha other 8 ^lan to ba a detriment to the
organleatlon and would aontaailnate It by their preaanoe. It would
lead tha orp:anlratlcn te a path of deatruotlon if eny of tho 6
■antloned man are to ba admitted aa mamb«ra*
My hopaa li for tha organlaatlon to grow and to proapar, to beeoma
a political power In Itaelf, although I chooa* not to remain a isMnber,
I ahall alwaya ba with yeu In aplrlt* and 1 want to olah every one
a M«rr."' Chrlatnaa and a Happy Kew Year.
' Cbrrect name "Rosalee B. Sell."
^ Correct name "Jerry McCraw."
4000 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
State of Texas, and they, the people at this meeting, set upon a policy
that they would forcibly restrain us from our activities with whatever
means was necessary to do so. The first means that they employed
was threats of violence against the Klansmen's wives.
(Documents marked "George Otto Exhibit Nos. 2-A and 2-B"
follow:)
George Otto Exhibit No. 2-A
■I
.■ J
^ f
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 4001
George Otto Exhibit No. 2-B
Unitsa .J\lan6 of ..MriMrica, Jrnc.
KNIGHTS OF THE KU KLUX KLAN
OFFICE OF THE GRAND DRAGON
Ootobcr aO, 1965
Mr* Jaok W* Campbell
ZdI6 K|^
0«ly«atoB, T«xai
D«av SlVf
Received your leister todmy. Am sorry to Inform you
that I dontt bar* tiia tlaa tev a suinaoas* Am to buay with
EXaa AotlTltLflfl, Maybe aoaa other time perhapa*
Your a for Qod aod Country ,
Oeorge A. Otto
Kleagla
Mr. Appell. Do you know the identity of this group of 10 that met
that carried out their first means of stopping you by threatening the
wives of Klansmen ?
Mr. Otto. I know a portion of them.
Mr. AppeixL. Which ones do you know ?
Mr. Otto. Mr. William Drennan attended. The meeting was held
in his home. Mr. Jack Campbell of Galveston, Texas, was there, and
I am fairly certain that Bobby Mead of Galveston was there. A Mr.
McCraw of Beaumont was there. A Mr. Glass of Beaumont was
there. A Mr. White of Beaumont was there. A Mr. Wilson of
Houston was there. I have heard that Mr. Sell of Houston, Texas,
was there. I believe that is about the extent of it.
Mr. IcHORD. You did not know of your own personal knowledge
that Mr. Sell was there?
Mr. Otto. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Appell. Did you attend this meeting ?
4002 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. Did you have any of your men present there to give you
a report of what went on ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. How did you learn the identity of those who partici-
pated in this meeting?
Mr. Otto. Mr. McCraw of Beaumont, Texas, had a security officer
who attended. I don't recollect his name. This security officer later
came to us and revealed the information about what took place in the
meeting.
Mr. Appell. Wliat was the identity of the security officer ?
Mr. Otto. I don't recollect his name. He is from Vidor, Texas. I
do not recall his name.
Mr. IcHORD. By "security officer," do you mean he was a police
officer ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir ; he was a Klan security officer.
Mr. Appell. What are the functions of a Klan security officer ?
Mr. Otto, They are to maintain order at the rallies and generally
protect the leaders of any group against any violence or anything that
may happen to come their way.
Mr. Appell. The conversation tapes that you had of Rosalee Sell,
Bobby Mead, Wilson, McCraw, and Rutland, these tapes all relate to
violence against your faction, or do any of these conversations relate
to the subject of violence against citizens of Texas?
Mr. Otto. The tapes that I had were strictly violence against those
other members of the Klan. The tape of Bobby Mead was a tape
between Mr. John Aspinwall of Houston, Texas, and Mr. Bobby
Mead of Galveston and disclosed the fact that the Galveston group
wore masks at all their meetings and not even the members within the
imits themselves knew each other.
Mr. Appell. How about the tape of Jerry McCraw ?
Mr. Otto. Now, I didn't actually have a tape of his conversation, but
Mr. McCraw was the subject of a conversation we had within a taped
meeting that was held in my home.
Mr. Appell. What were his advocacies as far as violence is con-
cerned ?
Mr. Otto. Well, Mr. McCraw was — Mr. McCraw, Mr. Drennan, Mr.
Wilson, and Mr. Sell, it seems like, were those who formulated all the
violence against the other members — threats of violence.
Mr. Appell. I see that you have the name J. M. Edwards. Is this
J. M. Edwards the Grand Dragon of the State of Louisiana ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. What taped conversation did you have involving him ?
Mr. Otto. The tapes of Mr. Edwards were more or less pertaining
to the point that he would attend and preside over the State of
Texas when it became a realm on December 11th. He would be the
presiding officer.
Mr. Appell. That he would act as the presiding officer over the
election ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. Appell. How about the taped conversation of Robert Shelton ?
Mr. Otto. That was a tape on our end of the phone with myself,
John Aspinwall, and Frank Converse, iThe threats had been made
against the Klansmen and their wives in Houston, and it was inform-
ACTIVmES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 4003
ing Mr. Shelton of this and it informed Mr. Shelton as to the condi-
tions that existed in Houston, Texas, and Beaumont and Vidor, Texas,
and was asking Mr. Shelton for some sort of action against the other
group, or what we could do about it.
Mr. Appell. What was Mr. Shelton's position ?
Mr. Otto. Mr. Shelton was noncommittal on the phone, except that
this organization had declared us illegal. It declared everything we
had done illegal. I established the new unit from Mr. Sell's unit,
headed up by Mr. Frank Converse, and the legality of Mr. Converse's
group was established in this taped conversation.
Mr. Appell. Did Shelton ever make an investigation of the charges
that you were making against Drennan ?
Mr, Otto. I have no knowledge of whether he did or not.
Mr. Appell. In response to your resignation, did he contact you in
order to try to keep you and your nonviolent followers into the orga-
nization ; or what position did he take ?
Mr. Otto. He never contacted me at all.
Mr. Appell. You never even received any acknowledgement of your
letter of resignation ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. Did Mr. Shelton, either directly or through any of his
Grand Dragons, support the Drennan faction, either by permitting
these violent people to run for the State office, or
Mr. Otto. I have no knowledge of it.
Mr. Appell. Now, we talked about Drennan. Did Drennan ever re-
ceive a commission from Shelton as Grand Dragon ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. I note in a letter you gave us to Heritage Garment
Works, July 10, 1965, a letter signed "George A. Otto, Titan," it says :
"Dear Sirs; Our Grand Dragon is Mr. William M. Drennan * * *."
Can you explain that ?
Mr. Otto. Yes. At the time we were organizing the group in Hous-
ton and in Texas, it was felt that it would be to our benefit to have an
Acting Grand Dragon and acting officers until such time as we did
become a realm.
(Document marked "George Otto Exhibit No. 3" appears on p. 4004. )
(At this point Representative Senner entered the room.)
Mr. Appell. He was the Acting Grand Dragon ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. By commission from Shelton ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. Just assumed ?
Mr. Otto. Assumed.
Mr. Appell. Prior to becoming a realm — I see from another piece
of correspondence — that you designated yourself a realm without in
fact being one because a letter to a Jack W. Campbell of Galveston,
Texas, dated October 20, 1965 (George Otto Exhibit No. 2-B), is on
the letterhead "United Klans of America, Inc., Knights of the Ku
Klux Klan, Realm of Texas, Office of the Grand Dragon."
Mr. Otto. That is correct. We used that for advertisement pur-
poses for impressing new applicants.
Mr. Appell. And was it also used to conceal the small membership
that you had in Texas ?
4004 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
George Otto Exhibit No. 3
E«rltngs o«rm«nt Worka
522 .'^owmi-d Stpeat
ColuablB, South CerollM
t)e«ir Sirs;
our C-TCTVi Ora^on Is Mr, WlllisjB M, Dreaatta, of i|aOI
W«8twiy, r'cusi;on, Texas. He waa Tery pleeaed to learn q£ your kind offer*
Tho me a a ur eaten 1 8 for hla robe ar« ea follonsf
Hei.-bfc 5' to"
Saia'fc 54
Sloe"* I^ntih SS"
Hat 7i
For years thare h«J been no 1-nown ."Ian activity 't
waa organized 'y Vt* Drennan only Tew weeks sgo. Not' «
beginning to tud, we ere In expeotatlona of a very raplu rise in
«eiB> erehip. I !j»ve been elevated to tha poalticn or ..Ittn r, oaf.; with
one ct.'-'cr .c, bar. rv.erafore ', ru w'. 11 find th« :■ 'Ll-^.v Im-^ cM-r.
Titan 'uNea
|I lieif.J.t,
SI liei^j.t, ivo" .,alat 2S4'' Sleoro SI" Hat 74
llansffian obf».<i
#1 ieiijl t 5' 10" i'alat 54» Sleeve 53" Hat 7i
#2 Sai'.e
#3 San. :
#4
All - Ir iplth biood drop.
It la <j!U« Dolljy to have only myaelf order rotes "or al] t" oae
who vlah ouitoa made robea, for thla reaaon it is deslrod r' &t <.:i
robes be ae it dirootly to my poat of floe bojc, including the vooe
of Mr, I'ronnan.
Slnoerely,
Oeoree A. otbo
Titan
Mr. Otto. I wouldn't say it was done for that purpose.
Mr. Appell, Because, really, under the Constitution and Laws of
the United Klans of America, you did not have sufficient chartered
Klaverns to qualify as a realm ?
Mr. Otto. That is correct.
Mr. Appell. Even in December did you have enough to qualify
as a — — •
Mr. Otto. We had 11 units of charter strength represented in Texas
of our own group, excluding the Drennan group, on December 11.
Mr. Appell. In December when you held the first election of realm
officers, how many delegates did each Klavern have ?
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 4005
Mr. Otto. Three.
Mr. Appell. They were from your group and Drennan's group both ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir. Strictly from my group.
Mr. Appell. Is this the meeting over which Grand Dragon Edwards
presided ?
Mr. Otto. That is correct.
Mr. Appell. Yovi earlier spoke about being opposed to Royce Mc-
Phail and yet Royce McPhail was a part of that State meeting of
elected oflS.cers.
Mr. Otto. I was backing Royce McPhail for the position of Grand
Dragon because I thought that Mr. McPhail was going along with
our line of thinking. After we became a realm, one of the very first
things that Mr. McPhail did was to invite some of the Drennan
groups to rejoin our group.
Mr. Appell. This is confusing to me because, according to the docu-
ment you handed me, the election of realm officers took place on De-
cember 10.
Mr. Otto. That is correct.
Mr. Appell. Your letter of resignation is December 11.
Mr. Otto. The realm officially began at 12:01 a.m., December
11.
The meeting was held on the night of December 10. Mr. Edwards
showed up at about 11 : 05 p.m.
Mr. Appell. I can't see how there was enough time between the
date of the election and the date of your resignation for McPhail to
invite Drennan's group in and cause you to be dissatisfied with
them.
Mr. Otto. It wasn't that. It was by my previous statement that
I was tired of the confusion and tired of the' pressures, and so forth
and so on, that I resigned in the first place. I figured that Mr. Mc-
Phail would just continue on.
Mr. Appell. When you did resign, December 11, did you resign
from the Klan or resign from an office ?
Mr. Otto. I resigned from the Klan.
Mr. Appell. Getting to the first election, and the document that you
turned over to me — and I would like to read into the record a portion
of it — Mr. Chairman, I would like the entire document to be entered
at this point, except I would like to read into the record and ask some
questions based upon that which I read.
(Docimient marked "George Otto Exhibit No. 4" follows:)
Geoege Otto Exhibit No. 4
FIRST OFFICIAL MEETING OF THE UNITED KUANS OF AMERICA
Texas Organization
DATE : Friday, December 10, 1965
TIME : 10 :40 PM
PLACE HELD : Old School House, Midway, Texas
THOSE PRESENT : Dr. J. M. Edwards, Grand Dragon of Louisiana ; Kleagle
George A. Otto, Houston, Texas ; and 3 delegates repre-
senting each of 11 Texas units.
At 10 :40 p.m., December 10, 196.5 the meeting was called to order by Kleagle
George A. Otto of Houston, Texas and Kleagle Royce McPhail of Crockett, Texas
at Midway, Texas. This meeting was for the purpose of electing the State
Officers for the State of Texas and thereby establish the Realm of Texas.
59-222 0—67 — pt. 5 34
4006 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
At 10 :41 p.m. Kleagle George Otto called for all delegates of the different units
to come forth and be recognized as delegates. It was recorded tliat 33 men were
present for the voting. At 10 :45 we recessed until 11 :00 p.m. for the purpose
of waiting for Dr. J. M. Edwards of Louisiana who was scheduled to preside over
the election. Dr. J. M. Edwards arrived at about 11 :05 and at 11 :15 p.m. the
meeting was called to order by Dr. Edwards. He explained the duties of each
of the offices to be elected.
Kleagle George Otto and Kleagle Royce McPhail each presented before the
electoral body five of the most qualified men in their territories. Qualifications of
these 10 men were given before the electoral body. The selected men returned to
their .seats. Slips of paper were handed out to each delegate. ( In order to avoid
repetition in this report, let it be known that to each of the 9 offices, men were
elected who were duly nominated and seconded. Each time the nomination was
closed by motion and popular vote. )
The first nomination for office was for the Grand Dragon of Texas. Kleagle
Royce McPhail of Crockett received 24 votes, E.G. John Aspinwall of Houston
received 9 votes. Royce McPhail became the first Grand Dragon of Texas today.
The next office elected was for Grand Klaliff. E.G. John Aspinwall of Houston
received 19 votes and E.G. Frank Converse of Houston received 14 votes.
In the Grand Klokard office E.G. Wayne Smith of Austin received 24 votes
and E.G. F. O. Langston of Vidor received 5 votes.
The fourth office for Grand Kludd was next. Rev. M. O. Fredericks ' of Lufkin
received 28 votes and Rev. Stanley of Groveton received 5 votes.
In the office for Grand Kligrapp E.G. Underwood of Tyler received 21 votes
and E.G. F. O. Langston of Vidor received 12 votes.
The sixth office was for Grand Klabee. Klansman Hunter Bruce received 24
votes and E.G. F. O. Langston received 9 votes.
In the Grand Kladd position E.G. F. O. Langston of Vidor received 24 votes
and Klansman John Blassimgin ^ of Houston received 4 votes.
In the office for Grand Klarogo Klansman Burgin of Vidor received 26 votes and
Klansman John Blaa^mgin ^ received 7 votes.
In the office for Grand Klexter Klansman John Blassimgin " was accepted by
acclaimation [sic].
In the office for Grand Night-Hawk, EG Dolese of Lufkin was accepted by
acclaimation [sic].
The following offices elected today will become effective at 12 :01 A.M., Saturday,
December 11, 1965. These officers will remain in office for one year ending at
12 :01 a.m., December 11, 1966.
Offices : Grand Dragon Royce McPhail
Grand Klaliff John Aspinwall
Grand Klokard Wayne Smith
Grand Kludd Rev. F. O. Fredericks ^
Grand Kligrapp E. C. Underwood
Grand Klabee Hunter Bruce
Grand Kladd F. O. Langston
Grand Klarogo Klansman Burgin
Grand Klexter John Blassimgin "
Grand Night-Hawk E.G. Dolese
The ending prayer was given by Rev. M. O. Fredericks ^ and the meeting was
adjourned by Dr. Edwards at 12 :45 a.m.
Submitted by :
George A. Otto
Kleagle
Mr. IcHORD. You may read it into the record.
Mr. Appell. This is a document entitled "First Official Meeting of
the United Klans of America, Texas Organization." It is in memoran-
dum form.
Date : Friday, December 10, 1965. Time : 10 :40 p.m. Place held :
Old School House, Midway, Texas. Those present : Dr. J. M. Edwards,
Grand Dragon, Louisiana; Kleagle George A. Otto, Houston, Texas;
and three delegates representing each of the 11 Texas units.
The document then goes on with a description of the number of men
^ Correct name "M. O. Frederick."
^ Correct name "John Blaslngin."
ACTIVmES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 4007
present and goes into the nominations for office, the first nomination
being that of the Grand Dragon of Texas.
It says :
Kleagle Royce McPhail of Crockett received 24 votes, E.G. John Aspinwall of
Houston received 9 votes. Royce McPhail became the first Grand Dragon of
Texas today.
What position did Koyce McPhail have in the organization prior to
being elected as the kleagle ?
Mr. Otto. Before kleagle ?
Mr. Appell. Yes.
Mr. Otto. He was the exalted cy clops of the Crockett Klan.
Mr. Appell. The Crockett Unit?
Mr. Otto. Right.
Mr. Appell. Did that unit have a cover name, to your knowledge ?
Mr. Otto. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Appell. Do you know what numbers were used to designate
Klaverns in Texas?
Mr. Otto. To the best of my knowledge, we were to become a realm
in September. On September 18.
At this time, Mr. Shelton issued to Mr. Drennan eight charters
nimibered from one to eight.
Mr. Appell. Not in a hundred series with the first one being 801
or 901 ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. And Jolm Aspinwall, who was candidate for the office
of Grand Dragon. Wliat Klaveni in Houston was he the exalted
Cyclops of?
Mr. Otto. The Jacinto City group.
Mr. Appell. The memorandum states the next office election was for
Grand Klaliff. EC Jolin Aspinwall of Houston received 19 votes and
EC Frank Converse of Houston received 14 votes. Of what Klavem
was Frank Converse the exalted cyclops?
Mr. Otto. Frank Converse had his own group made up of the rem-
nants of Mr. SelFs group.
Mr. Appell. Is this the new group that you formed out of Mr. Sell's
group when you removed Sell ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. Appell. Do you recall its designation ?
Mr. Otto. Just the Converse group, as far as I know.
Mr. Appell. What area of Houston did the Converse group draw
from?
Mr. Otto. North central.
Mr. Appell. Where did the Converse group hold its meetings?
Mr. Otto. In Mr. Converse's garage.
Mr. Appell. The memorandum states for the office of grand klokard
EC Wayne Smith of Austin received 24 votes and EC F. O. Langston
of Vidor received 5 votes. What was the group in Austin of which
Wayne Smith was the exalted cyclops?
Mr. Otto. Wayne Smith was formerly the King Kleagle for the
National Klan in Texas and had a group' of Mr. Venable, I believe,
in Austin, Texas — I don't recall the date — at which time Mr. Smith
and his entire group came in with the United Klan.
Mr. Appell. Wlien a group that belongs to one Klan organization
becomes affiliated with another Klan group, like the members of the
4008 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
National Knights become affiliated with the UKA, these members do
not have to sign new applications or go through new rituals ; do they ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know the procedure that was handled on Mr.
Smith. That was handled by Mr. Royce McPhail.
Mr. Appell. Wliat Klavem in Vidor would F. O. Langston be
EC of?
Mr. Otto. His own. On all of these we just designated as the Vidor
Unit.
Mr. Appell. The fourth office, for grand kludd, the Reverend M.O.
Frederick of Lufkin received 28 votes and Reverend Stanley of Grove-
ton received 5 votes. With what Klavern in Lufkin was the Reverend
M.O. Frederick affiliated?
Mr. Otto. I don't know exactly which Klavern he belonged to,
whether he belonged to the Lufkin group or to the Crockett group.
Most likely, in my opinion, he belonged to the group headed by Mr.
Dolese of Lufkin, Texas.
Mr. Appell. How about the Reverend Stanley ?
Mr. Otto. He belonged to the group in Groveton, Texas.
Mr. Appell. Next is the office of grand kilgrapp. EC Underwood
of Tyler received 21 votes and EC F. O. Langston of Vidor received 12
votes. What group in Tyler was Underwood the exalted cyclops of?
Mr. Otto. I have no knowledge of the Tyler group except that the
Tyler group is made up of three towns. It is Tyler, Texas; Lake
Jackson, Texas ; and Frankston, Texas ; I believe. Each town had a
group, but at the time of becoming a realm neither one of the three
towns had 25 members. So in order to comply with the charter
arrangement, Mr. McPhail combined the three units into the Tyler
group so they could present three delegates.
Mr. Appell. The next office, according to the memorandum, was
for grand klabee or treasurer, with Klansman Hunter Bruce receiving
24 votes and EC F. O. Langston received 9 votes. Of what Klavem
was Hunter Bruce ?
Mr. Otto. Crockett, Texas.
Mr. Appell. The next is in the grand kladd position. EC F. O.
Langston of Vidor received 24 votes and Klansman John Blasingin of
Houston received 4 votes. To which of the Houston groups was John
Blasingin ?
Mr. Otto. The Jacinto City group.
Mr. Appell. The office of grand klarogo. Klansman Burgin of
Vidor received 26 votes and Klansman John Blasingin received 7
votes.
For the office of grand klexter, Klansman John Blasingin was ac-
cepted by acclamation.
How did the Klaverns in Texas pay their per capita assessment to
the realm and to the imperial office ?
Mr. Otto. There was no per capita assessment made to the State
office or to the National office until the time that we became a realm.
After the split in the organization with Mr. Drennan and myself, the
^roup that I headed required each new member to pay a $10 klectokon
into the treasury of every unit that he was to be assigned to. Each
individual unit then were assessed, would assess their members a spe-
cific amount that was voted on by the members of that specific unit.
Mr. Appell. Under the Constitution and Laws of the United Klans
of America, the kleagle or organizer is entitled to retain for himself a
portion of the klectokon ?
ACTIVmES OF KU KLTJX KLAN IN THE U.S. 4009
Mr. Otto. That is correct.
Mr. Appell. Was that done in Texas ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. We have obtained checks written by you, one, August
31, 1965, in the amount of $80, and one on September 8, 1965, in the
amount of $50. I noted in one letter that the $50 was for the purchase
of a quantity of Fiery Crosses. Were the other checks for the same
purpose ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
(Checks marked "George Otto Exhibit No. 5- A" and retained in
committee files; letter marked "George Otto Exhibit No. 5-B" fol-
follows:)
George Otto Exhibit No. 5-B
•I »M
Salt* 401 Alatoft Bl4c.
ffiue»l0*M« A2a«
Dmup IMM ab«l%M^
Bila la to •onflVM tel«phoM eonvaraAtlen of S«pt«mb«>7,
IB6S, In alileh X h«T« •rd«r*d 8000 of th« mw 8 p«g«
Pltry Qm%»%9
BaoloMA you will find ay oh««k for lO.OO
'!•••• —xA to Ooergo A* Ot«o By CeaftlnnonUl Bus Llnei*
77D8 ApplotoB
louataft, 88. Texas
QaUkloil
Ihovo aro B Tory ale* Botov hotals aloag hlghaay 75
#iloh I would rvaoBatnd for Mr. Shaltoa'f atay with ua. Z
•uggaat any ona of tha 8 baoauaa af tbatr looatiaa on /7S
ahlah 1« «ha Hlipiaay laadli^ «a Croekatl^ faxaa, tha alta of
tha fir at rally« and alaa baaauaa tbay ajpa aloaa ka aqr ova
hcaM aa aalX aa ttiat af Kr* Orannam*
I hawa aakad tha ■Mbavahlp la Oraakatt, Tazaa to raaarra
at laaat • ro«a« at a gaod Batal for tha night of tha 17 th*
fhla la doa ta tha dlataaaa batwaan Houataa and Crookatt ( lao allaa)
Bapiac to haar fraai yaa ahortiy^
Tovra for God and Country,
Qaorga A* otta
4010 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. We also have a check in the amount of $117, payable to
Royce McPhail, from you, dated September 20, 1965. What would
that be for ?
Mr. Otto. That was for unused soda water that Mr. McPhail had
left over from the Crockett rally.
(Check marked "George Otto Exhibit No. 6" follows :)
George Otto Exhibit No. 6
M^K ar TSS SOUTHWEST
/&^2^^
Mr. Appell. Several pieces of correspondence relate to the purchase
of robes from the Heritage Garment Works of Columbia, South Caro-
lina. Did you know that the Heritage Garment Works was owned by
Younger Newton, who is the Grahd Klalitf of the Realm of South
Carolina ?
Mr. Otto. I knew Mr. Newton was affiliated with it, I didn't know
he owned it.
Mr. Appell. According to copy of an application we received — I
think these prices were later increased, but the form that we have shows
cotton robes, $15, and satin robes, $17. Is that the amount that you
paid to them or is that the amount that you collected from the member-
ship ?
Mr. Otto. That is the amount that I paid to Mr. Newton.
(Document previously marked "Younger Newton Exhibit No. 5.")
Mr. Appell. And the members paid the fee set forth here?
Mr. Otto. They paid the exact same amount.
Mr. Appell. Do you know whether or not the imperial office received
any part of the profit from the sale of robes by Heritage Garment
Works?
Mr. Otto. I don't know how they distributed their finances.
Mr. Appell. Did you require that all members purchase a robe?
Mr. Otto. I didn't require it, but it w^as strongly suggested that
they get one.
Mr. Appell. What percentage of the membership of the Klan of
Texas do you estimate that you ordered robes for ?
Mr. Otio. At the time that I ordered the robes, I guess I ordered
tliem for about perhaps a third or a fourth of the membership, and
then I ordered these robes out of my own personal funds, and when
ACTIVrriES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 4011
the amount became excessive I let each of the people order their own
robes.
Mr. Appell. At the time the realm elections were held in December,
what do you estimate the membership of the United Klans of America
in Texas?
Mr. Otto. I don't know what the membership of the Crockett or the
Lufkin group was, or the Tyler group. The Austin group, at the last
count I had, was 32 members, and the Vidor group was between 28
and 30, and the Converse group had just made their 25, and the Alex-
ander group in Houston, Texas, reported at about 28. The Aspinwall
group was perhaps 75. I can't think of any others.
Mr. Appell. Do you estimate the top membership would have been
somewhere around 400 ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir ; in that vicinity.
Mr. Appell. From your knowledge, since the realm election and your
resigning, has this membership declined ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know.
Mr. Appell. On the document you addressed to all Klansmen on De-
cember 23, 1965, you talked about the El Paso secret unit under Dren-
nan. What is that secret unit ?
Mr. Otto. We were first to become a realm on September 18, 1965.
Mr. Shelton came over here on the assumption that Mr. Drennan had
the required 10 units. Well, Mr. Drennan, all of his units were so-
called secret units. In other words, no one knew anything about them
except himself. And Mr. Roscoe Smith of El Paso, Texas, was
supposedly the head of a secret unit that Mr. Drennan had in El Paso.
I called Mr. Roscoe Smith on the phone long distance one time and
found that Mr. Roscoe Smith was the only member in El Paso, Texas,
that he did have the applications, that he did have some materials,
but he had no one signed up.
Mr. Drennan also was supposed to have a secret unit in Orange
County in Orange, Texas. Investigation showed that there were
three members in this organization. One member was an habitual
drunk, another member was a Roman Catholic, and the third member
had paid his dues and was hunting for the other two members. So I
contacted Mr. Roscoe Smith in El Paso to find out just what progress
he had made. Mr. Drennan on September 18 was boasting of 17
secret uints, but I contended that these secret units didn't even exist.
Mr. Appell. Did you confront Drennan with your findings at a
meeting with Shelton at the time he came there to grant the charter ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir; I didn't. I confronted Mr. Shelton with the
facts. At the time we were to become a realm on September 18 we had
only three units of required strength and consequently Mr. Shelton
called off the election of State officers.
Mr. IcHORD. Was there any prohibition in the charter against a
Roman Catholic being a mBmber ?
Mr. Otto. Roman Catholics are now being accepted into member-
ship.
Mr. Appell. Have they changed the Constitution and Laws to per-
mit this ?
Mr. Otto. I believe they have.
4012 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Appell. At the time Shelton was in Texas, in September, he
was accompanied there or met there by Dr. Theodore Crane of Vir-
ginia. Do you remember meeting Dr. Crane there ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. What was Crane's position in the United Klans of
America ?
Mr. Orro. Mr. Crane didn't occupy a position in the Klan. He was
supposedly writing a book on the Klan and gathering information for
a book which he was to publish later.
Mr. Appell. Younger Newton was there with Shelton at that time,
in addition to Dr. James Everett ; wasn't he ?
Mr. Otto. Yes ; he was a ^est in my home, he and his wife.
Mr. Appell. And he is the man you identified with the Heritage
Garment Works ?
Mr. Orro. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. I think the record should show that Younger Newton
was a witness before us in the South Carolina phase of our hearings
and refused to testify and invoked constitutional privilege.
Mr, Otto. I might add a statement, if you like.
Mr. Appell. Please do.
Mr. Otto. On the collecting of the $3 out of each $10 for the kleagle,
the only reimbursement I have ever received for any of my activities
came from the Houston rally which we had on September 18, at which
time I collected all the donations, and I collected $80 from applica-
tions taken on the rally field that night. Eight applications at $10
each. And I received all the proceeds from the Houston rally that
night. I more or less reimbursed myself as I had bought all the ma-
terials, I had bought all the soda waters, and so forth, myself anyway.
Mr. Senner. In this regard, you say $80 was collected for eight ap-
plications. What was the amount of the other revenues ?
Mr. Otto. $174 and some odd cents, for donations. Eight applica-
tions at $10 each, and approximately $43 or $44 proceeds from the
sale of orange and rootbeer soda waters.
Mr. Senner. And you took all of the revenues from that rally ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, I did.
Mr. Senner. How much would you consider you had expended out
of your own funds prior to this time ?
Mr. Otto. Approximately $2,100.
Mr. Appell. Did you meet on the property of A. J. Davis ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Did you pay him $300 for the use of the property?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Did you also send some money to Shelton to cover his
expenses ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. IcHORD. How big a rally was this? About how many people
were there ?
Mr. Otto. Newspaper accounts say 1,000.
Mr. IcHORD. How many do you estimate were there ?
Mr. Otto. 250. It rained all day that day. It was still raining
that night.
ACTIVrriES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 4013
Mr. Appell. The check that you gave to Royce McPhail in the
amount of $117 was sent to him and deposited in the Alabama Rescue
Service account. Can you explain that '?
Mr. Otto. No, sir. I reimbursed him. I took the, I think, about
60 or 65 cases of unused rootbeers and orange off his hands and reim-
bursed him for it in the amount of $117. As far as I know, that was
the end of it.
Mr. Appell. Could the money have been advanced to him by Shel-
ton ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know.
Mr. Appell. Why would the money show up in the imperial bank
account ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know.
Mr. Appell. Do you possess any knowledge as to whether or not
Shelton is reimbursed for his attendance at these rallies, either in Texas
or in other places ?
Mr. Otto. I don't think he is. He wasn't in Texas. He received a
gift that my wife bought him in the form of a Texas hat, which cost my
wife about $20, 1 think.
Mr. Appell. He was very proud to show me that hat and say it came
from Texas.
On August 21 of 1965 you and other leaders of the United Klans of
America participated in rallies and meetings in Landis, North
Carolina ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. Appell. There you were introduced as the Acting Grand Dragon
for Texas. Was this a factual introduction or is this to impress other
people ?
Mr. Otto. I was introduced as Grand Dragon. That was Mr.
Shelton's idea.
Mr. Appell. Even though it was not factual ?
Mr. Otto. Even though it was not factual.
Mr. Appell. At that rally did you also meet Frank Calser from
Pennsylvania and Dan Burros, who committed suicide several months
ago?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Do you possess any knowledge of the fact that Frank
Calser and Dan Burros and Jeri-y Walraven, who was at one time
one of the early leaders of the Klan in Texas — of their affiliation
with the American Nazi Party ?
Mr. Otto. I had no knowledge of it.
Mr. Appell. I understand there was a meeting of the people there
in addition to the appearance in the rally. What was the discussion
at this meeting of Grand Dragons ?
Mr. Otto. I didn't attend the meeting, I only attended the rally.
I was in the company of Mr. Newton and various other people for
the period of time I was there. However, I did not attend the meet-
ing between the Grand Dragons and the imperial officers.
Mr. Appell. Do you possess knowledge as to the subject matter
discussed ?
Mr. OiTO. No, sir ; I don't.
Mr. Appell. At any meeting, private or with a gathering of other
leaders of the United Klans of America, was there ever discussed
4014 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN EST THE U.S.
the investigation of this committee and the position which should
be taken by people if they should happen to be subpenaed?
Mr. Otto. I made a telephone call to Mr. Shelton at one time, and
Mr. Shelton informed me that I would appear — I forget which date
it was now, but that all of the members of the United Klans were tak-
ing the fifth amendment, and it was urged that I do so.
Mr. Appell. This was in a telephone conversation with Mr. Shelton ?
Mr. Otfo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Was this after you were served with a subpena ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. Appell. Prior to the time you came up here in January ?
Mr. OiTo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Is this the only conversation you had with Shelton
with respect to your invocation of the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Otto. Yes. No, sir. There was a general discussion in Mr.
Shelton's room concerning
Mr. AsHBROOK. When was this? Is this when you were here in
January ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir ; this is when I came over here January 9, which
was on a Sunday morning. I registered in the Congressional Hotel,
and at approximately 1 p.m. I went up to Mr. Shelton's room and 1
remained in Mr. Shelton\ company more or less until I departed on
January the 12th.
Mr. AsHBROOK. During the time you were supposed to appear pur-
suant to subpena ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Wliat was the conversation there at that time with
respect to your invocation of the fifth ?
Mr. Otto. I was undecided at the time I came up whether I would
take the fifth or not, and Mr. Shelton and Mr. Chalmers, who appeared
later that night, Sunday night, at approximately 7 o'clock I believe it
was
Mr. Appell. Let's divide the discussion as to the discussion between
you and Shelton, you, Shelton, and Chalmers.
Mr. Otto. That would be rather hard to do because I don't remember
just exactly what was said by each individual man.
Mr. Appell. Who all was at this meeting ?
Mr. Otto. In Mr. Shelton's room it was Mr. Shelton and — I don't
remember the man's name. He came in about 3 o'clock. He was from
New Orleans, a businessman from New Orleans, who had been to the
hearings just prior to the time I arrived. And he arrived about 3
p.m., and at 5 p.m.
Mr. Appell. A man with glasses ?
Mr. Otto. Rather short, heavy-set man.
Mr. Appell. Would it have been Jack Helm, H-e-l-m?
Mr. Otto. Yes ; yes, that is who it was. At 5 o'clock or around that
time I think, Mr. J. M. Edwards and Mr. Kelly of Louisiana arrived,
and at approximately 7 o'clock Mr. Chalmers and another man ar-
rived, and there were discussions all during that time.
Mr. Appell. Did you ever make known to any of those assembled
that you were giving consideration to testifying ?
Mr. Otto, Yes.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 4015
Mr. Appell. And what was their response to this ?
Mr. Otto. They told me that I would be a fool to testify because, if
1 testified in the closed hearings, that it was almost a sure bet that I
would be recalled into the open hearings and that I stood a very good
chance of perjuring myself.
Mr. Appell. How could they tell you that you stood a good chance
of perj uring yourself ? Wliat would they support that with ?
Mr. Otto. Perhaps testimony of other Klansmen later on to appear
who would testify in a different manner than I did.
Mr. Appell. Was there any inference that the committee would get
eople to testify differently than you testified in order that there might
e a perjury conviction ?
Mr. Otto. There existed that possibility.
Mr. Appell. They suggested this ?
Mr. Otto. I am not going to say. I don't really remember.
Mr. Senner. Mr. Chairman, I am not so interested in what Mr.
Chalmers recommended to you. Was he ever your attorney in this
matter ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Senner. And of your own choosing, or was that choice being
made by Mr. Shelton ?
Mr. Otto. Mr. Shelton offered me the service of Mr. Chalmers free
of charge.
Mr. Senner. Did you accept that service ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. Senner. Prior to talking to Mr. Chalmers when you went
up to the room of Mr. Shelton at 1 o'clock — and as I understand the
testimony, you said until about 3 when somebody else appeared — did
Mr. Shelton make the suggestions and comments to you that you are
testifying about ? In other words, Mr. Shelton, the Imperial Wizard
of the Invisible Empire, in that 2-hour period what did you discuss
with him before counsel came in about 7 o'clock that evening ?
Mr. Otto. We discussed a little of everything in between them 2
hours.
Mr. Senner. In the period of the 2 hours
Mr. Otto. I am sure it was touched on.
Mr. Senner. Did Mr. Shelton indicate to you, after you were served
with the subpena, what you should do before this committee is take the
fifth amendment ? Did he recommend that to you ?
Mr. Otto. He recommended it.
Mr. Senner. And was that prior to any conversation you had with
legal counsel?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. Senner. And what was your response to the suggestion that
you take the fifth amendment on the basis that possibly this commit-
tee might try to find some person to trap your testimony and charge
you with perjury ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know exactly. My feelings about whether to
testify or not had been mixed for a long time prior to that, and just
how far my conscience would let me go, and so forth, and whether it
would serve the best interests of the country, and so forth, just what
would be the right thing to do.
4016 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Senner. And you told this to Mr. Shelton ?
Mr. Otto. Yes ; I told him that I had been subpenaed for Monday
morning in a closed session, and he recommended that I take the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Senner. Even in a closed session ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. Senner. And, as I understand, your response to Mr. Appell
was that he suggested this committee might be able to get other wit-
nesses that would be used to testify differently against you.
Mr. Otto. He said there was a possibility that, if other witnesses
would appear which would give testimony contrary to mine, I could
be recalled and charged with perjury in giving testimony.
Mr. Senner. Did you make any comments to that suggestion or
statement ?
Mr. Otto. I don't think so. I j ust took it all in.
Mr. Senner. When did you decide to use Mr. Chalmers as your legal
adviser ?
Mr. Otto. Sunday night, January the 9th.
Mr. Senner. That was after you met him in the hotel room ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. Appell. Was the condition under which Mr. Shelton offered
you free legal advice based upon whether you would take the fifth
amendment ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know. It was never put in just such a manner.
Mr. Appell. Could you tell us in what manner it was put ?
Mr. IcHORD. I think at this point the Chair would instruct the in-
vestigator and the witness that communications between a client and
attorney are privileged communications, which the investigator knows,
and the Chair certainly would honor any communications which you
had with Mr. Chalmers. I understand you did accept him as your at-
torney, and I would tell you those would be privileged, and the Chair
would not press you to answer any questions concerning it unless you
want to do it voluntarily. Those are privileged communications, and
it is not necessary to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Appell. My question, Mr. Chairman, related itself only to what
the Imperial Wizard Shelton had said.
Mr. IcHORD. I thought the witness, not being represented by an
attorney, should be advised of the law in that regard.
Mr. Appell. Yes, sir. I am only interested in the conditions under
which Mr. Shelton offerd the attorney for you, which the United Klans
of America would reimburse.
Mr. Otto. I don't know. There was no strings attached at the time
he made the offer. I don't know whether he would have rescinded the
offer had I testified or not.
Mr. Appell. Prior to the discussion about your appearance, the
night you had discussions with respect to witnesses, we had discussed
several individuals. The John Aspinwall, whom you identified as
the exalted cy clops of the Jacinto City Klavern, which is also known
as the Citizens Connnittee for Law and Order, lives at 12426 Mylla
Lane in Houston, Texas ?
Mr. Otto. Yes,
Mr. Appell. The John Blasingin resides at 10150 Burman Street in
Houston, Texas ?
ACTWrriES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 4017
Mr. Otto. I don't know the address. Burman is right. I assume
it is.
Mr. Appell. The EC of Unit No. 3, Joe Alexander, resides at 5337
Bell Street?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. Appell. Is that also Houston ?
Mr. Otto. Houston.
Mr. Appell. And Sell resides at 9905 Exeter Street in Houston,
Texas?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. And Bobby G. Wilson resides at 11218 Rebel Avenue,
Houston ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know his address. I have been wanting to get
it for a long time.
Mr. Appell. Bobby Wayne Mead, did he reside at 4820 Avenue E, in
Galveston ?
Mr. Otto. I think that is correct.
Mr. Appell. Have you mentioned the name of John W. Campbell
to this point ?
Mr. Otio. Only on one previous occasion, on that Saturday night
meeting that was held at which they were going to eject me and my
so-called band of followers out of the Klan.
Mr. Appell. Did he at one time have the title of coordinator for
the Klan in Texas ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. And was this an office to which Drennan made the
appointment ?
Mr. Otto. No. Upon the failure to become a realm on September
18 and after the rally on the night of September 18, a group of Klans-
men representing several units assembled in back of the speakers
platform and elected Mr. Campbell as the coordinator.
Mr. Appell. Does Campbell live at 1615 Avenue N-i^? Is that
Houston also ?
Mr. Otto. Galveston.
Mr. Appell. Do you know whether or not the Klavern which Royce
McPhail headed in Crockett used the cover name of the Houston
County Committee for Law and Order ?
Mr. Otpo. I don't know whether they used it or not.
Mr. Appell. Did you know Jimmy B. Cloud to be a member of
the Klan in Texas ?
Mr. Otto. The name isn't familiar. Cloud ?
Mr. Appell. Yes.
Mr. Otfo. I don't know the name.
Mr. Appell. Who, at the time he was initiated into the Klan, was a
member of the United States Army.
Mr. Otto. We did initiate one Army personnel in Crockett, Texas,
one night. However, I didn't know his name.
Mr. Appell. The Jerry McCraw you testified to, does he live at 11430
Carpenter Road, Beaumont, Texas ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. Appell. Do you know Edward G. Allen of Nederland, Texas,
a member of the Jacinto City Club ?
4018 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Otto. No, sir ; I don't know him by name.
Mr. Appell. Do you know Roy Lewellen ?
Mr. Otto. Not by name.
Mr. Appell. Was he ever sent up to Mississippi to get instructions
on organizing organizations ?
Mr. Otto. No one in our group was ever sent to Mississippi, I know.
Mr. Appell. Did you know William Brewer of Houston ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. Did you know John Burros, a student at Abilene
Christian College ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. Did you know Luther M. Boyd, who was arrested in
Huntsville for using abusive language while he was in a Klan robe in
a cafe ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Did you know him to be a member of the Klan ?
Mr. Otto. He was a member until the time he was arrested.
Mr. Appell. What happened to him ?
Mr. Otto. He resigned.
Mr. Appell. He resigned ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. In order to preserve the image of the Klan?
Mr. Otto. I believe in order to preserve his license as a chiropractor.
Mr. Appell. Was this a sincere resignation, or did he continue to
associate with the Klan ?
Mr. Otto. It was a sincere resignation.
Mr. Appell. Is George Drennan, William Drennan's brother, a
Klansman ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know him.
Mr. Appell. Were you with them the night the group of Klansmen
went to this cafe in Huntsville ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. What was the purpose of your group going there ?
Mr. Otto. We thought it would be excellent for advertising pur-
poses for future recruiting.
Mr. Appell. In what way ? Was this restaurant integrated ?
Mr. Otto. At the time there were demonstrations going on in Hunts-
ville by those seeking to integrate the restaurant and at the time we
felt if we made an appearance there it would be the best place in Texas
to make an appearance to get the most publicity.
Mr. Appell. Let me show you a series of photographs and ask if
you can identify the people who appear in those photographs who are
dressed in Klan robes.
Mr. Otto. This is the first time I have seen those photographs. I
have wanted to see them for a long time.
This is Mr. Boyd.
Mr. Appell. No. 1 is Mr. Boyd ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. IcHORD. Do you have them marked ?
Mr. Appell. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Otto. This is the owner of the cafe.
Mr. Appell. That is No. 2.
ACTIVmES OF KU KLtJX KLAN IN THE U.S. 4019
Mr. Otto. This is Jolin Blasingin.
Mr. Appell. No. 3 is Jolxti Blasingin.
Mr. Otfo. This is Dremian.
Mr. Appell. No. 4 is William Drennan.
Mr. Otto. I don't recall his name [indicating] . I don't recall his
[indicating]. This is John Aspinwall.
Mr. Appell. John Aspinwall is No. 8.
Mr. IcHORD. What is the number of the photograph ?
Mr. Appell. We will nimiber the photograph No. 1.
Photograph No. 2, who is the one with the back to the camera ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know his name. I don't know the name of No. 2,
I don't think I have seen him before. No. 3, I know his name, but I
can't think of it.
Mr. Appell. Is it Joe Alexander ?
Mr. Otto. No. If I think of it later on I will tell you. Then there
is Aspinwall and myself.
Mr. Appell. No. 4 is John Aspinwall and No. 5 is George Otto in
photograph No. 2,
I now show you photograph No. 3.
Mr. Otto. That is John Aspinwall, and that is John Blasingin. I
don't know his name. I don't know his name.
Mr. Appell. Nos. 3 and 4 are unknown.
Mr. Otto. And this is the same person on the other photograph. I
can't think of his name. He has "LOVE" tatooed across his knuckles.
These two fellows I don't know their names. They were at the
meetings held at Drennan's house.
Mr. Appell. Let the record show the witness is only able to identify
figures 1 and 2 on photograph No. 3.
Mr. IcHORD. Are you offering those as exhibits for the record ?
Mr. Appell. Yes, photographs Nos. 1 2, and 3, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. IcHORD. Is there any objection to the admission of the photo-
graphs in the record ?
If not, they will be admitted.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Otto, was one of the people in the photographs that
I exhibited to you Virgil Brown ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know the name.
Mr. Appell. Gordon Wood?
Mr. Otto. I don't know that name either.
Mr. Appell. Roy Schulz?
Mr. Otfo. I don't know his name.
Mr. Appell. Robert E. Couch, Jr. ?
Mr. Otfo. I don't know his name.
Mr. Appell. D. C. HoUoman?
Mr. Otto. I don't know his name.
(Photographs 1, 2, and 3 marked "George Otto Exhibits Nos. 7-A,
7-B, and 7-C," respectively, follow :)
4020 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
George Otto Exhibit No. 7- A
Photograph No. 1
Individuals in above photograph are: (1) Dr. Luther Boyd, (2) Abe Dabaghi, cafe
owner, (3) John Blasingin, (4) WiUiam Drennan, (5) unknown, (6) Bobby Wayne
Mead, (7) unknown, (8) John Aspinwall.
Mr. Appekl, Mr. Chairman, the committee's investigation shows
these people were driving automobiles that were part of the caravan.
Were any of the Klansmen that were there that night armed ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. Is it the policy of the Klan, or was it while you were
in it, for the members to be armed ?
ACTIVmES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 4021
George Otto Exhibit No. 7-B
Photograph No. 2
Individuals in above photograph are: (1) Morsene Smith, (2) and (3) unknown,
(4) John AspinwaU, (5) George Otto.
Mr. Otto. .No, sir. On the night of July 26 when we went to
Huntsville I personally shook the men down before we left to make
sure there were no arms.
Mr. Ighord. In the shakedown did you find any arms ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. IcHORD. Will you describe them for us ?
Mr. Otto. I think we came up with three or four pistols.
Mr. Appell. In August did you attend a meeting in Crockett, Texas,
in which eight care in a caravan left Houston for Crockett, one being
your 1964 Volkswagen ?
59-222 O — 67 — pt. 5 35
4022 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
George Otto Exhibit No. 7-C
Photograph No. 3
Individuals in above photograph are: (1) John Aspinwall, (2) John Blasingin,
(3) Bobby Wayne Mead, (4)-(8) unknown.
Mr. Otto. That is quite possible. I was in Crockett sometime in
August.
Mr. Appell. Were any of the people that night armed ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir ; not to my knowledge.
Mr. Appell. Did you know Lewis R. Merrill to be a member of
the Klan ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know the name.
Mr. Appell. What about Lusann Willif ord ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know him either.
ACTIVmES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 4023
Mr. Appell. Bill Wilson, who lives on Three Sisters Street in
Houston ?
Mr. Otto. Bill Wilson?
Mr. Appell. Yes.
Mr. Otto. I don't know if it is the same Wilson. What was the
other Wilson who resided on the other street ? You had another Wil-
son with a different address. I don't know which is which.
Mr. Appell. Bobby Wilson lived on Rebel Drive. This Wilson re-
sided on Three Sisters Street.
Mr. Otto. I don't know which is which. I know one of the two
Wilsons.
Mr. Appell. Did you know Lee W. Thornton ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. Did you laiow him to be a member of the Klan at
Houston ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. Appell. What about J. B. Thornton, Jr. ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. James Ronald, who lives on Hershie Street in Houston ^
Mr. Otto. I don't know him.
Mr. Appell. Thomas Park ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know him.
Mr. IcHORD. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Appell. Since December 11, or 10, the meeting of the realm
officers, have you attended any Klan meetings ?
Mr. Otto. There was a meeting held in my home about a week after-
wards. In the position I was in, there were loose ends to be tied up,
and at this meeting various phases of what had happened were dis-
cussed. This was about 1 week afterward.
Mr. Appell. Did any of the newly elected Klan officers attend this
meeting ?
Mr. Otto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Appell. And the purpose was to turn over to them records and
things you might have accumulated ?
Mr. Otto. The purpose of that meeting was to try to show Mr.
McPhail evidence that we had collected on various members of the
organization, to show that they were undesirables, such as Mr. Sell
and Mr. McCraw and Mr. Mead, and so forth ; to present him with this
evidence so he would not renew their charters and would not accept
them back into the organization.
Mr. Appell. Did he indicate he would go along with your recom-
mendation ?
Mr. Otto. He was not present at that meeting. It was a taped
meeting. He showed every indication that he would not go along with
it and he has accepted back into the organization the very people we
discussed that we didn't want to associate with.
Mr. Appell. Do you possess any knowledge as to whether or not,
since liis election as Grand Dragon, lie has received official credentials
from Imperial Wizard Shelton?
Mr. Otto. I do not know.
Mr. IcHORD. You say this was a taped meeting ?
4024 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. IcHORD. Who has the tape now ?
Mr. Otto. We have no tape now.
Mr. IcHORD. What was the purpose of taping the meeting?
Mr. Otto. Mr. McPhail was to come that night to Houston, but he
failed to come to the meeting. And the meeting was in my home and
it was to show him evidence we had gathered about these members, to
prevent him from allowing those members to come back into the
organization.
Mr. IcHORD. In other words, you put it on tape to present to him
as evidence of the meeting ?
Mr. Otto. That is correct.
Mr. Appell. When Shelton was in Texas for the 3 days, September
16, 17, and 18, are you familiar with the fact he made a statement to
the press condemning the press for referring to the Klan membership
in Texas as being small, by making a statement to them there was in
fact ample strength to form an official realm at that time?
Mr. Otto. I don't know what press releases he gave out,
Mr. Appell. But if he gave such a press release he gave it knowing;,
based on the facts you gave him and that he knew of his own knowl-
edge, that this was false ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Otto, do you possess any knowledge of action on •
the part of any Klan group carrying out acts of intimidation against
citizens in the form of cross-burnings or threatening telephone calls
or that sort of thing ?
Mr. Otto. The only threats that have been made are from the
Drennan orgajiization to our organization. They threatened to put
us through the belt line and threatened bodily harm to our wives.
After Mr. Wilson called my home and threatened my wife, I went to
the Federal Bureau of Investigation and reported the incident to the
agents there. I did that the very next morning. In fact, I called that
night and asked for an interview the next morning with the Federal
Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. IcHORD. Do you know of any threats or acts of violence against
any others in your group ?
Mr. Otto. No. There have been no acts of violence at all that I
know of, and none that have been reported to me. The only violence
has been in the form of a threat to myself and other leaders in my
group.
Mr. Appell. Did the United Klans of Texas, to your knowledge,
recruit into membership any members of law enforcement agencies?
Mr. Otto, Yes,
Mr. Appell. Can you identify to the committee any members of law
enforcement agencies that have been recruited ?
Mr. Otto. We have in Houston a security officer of the Texas Cat-
tlemen's Association. I understand, though I wasn't present at the
time, that either the sheriff or the chief of police in Madisonville was
a member.
Mr. Appell. Sheriff J. W. Parks ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know his name. I understand one of the two is
a member. The chief of police that is going to be newly appointed
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 4025
in Vidor, Texas, is a member. They are about the only ones I can
think of right now.
Before we split with the Drennan faction, Mr. Hargreaves was a
law enforcement officer and a member of the Drennan group and is
presently with Mr. Wilson, I believe.
Mr. Appell. Where is Hargreaves from ?
Mr. Otto. From Houston.
Mr. Appell. Is he with the Houston Police Department '?
Mr. Otto. I don't know exactly who he is with.
There was one in Mr. Sell's group, a city health inspector, but he
carried a police badge.
Mr. Appell. And who was that ?
Mr. Otto. I don't remember. I would know him if I saw him.
Mr. Appell. With respect to the identity of Klansmen, would you,
as a kleagle, or would the State realm organization or the imperial
organization, ever receive the identity of a rank-and-file Klansman ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. The identity of a rank-and-file Klansman would be
known only to the members of the Klavern with whom he met ?
Mr. Otto. That is true, except through visitation or something
where we just happened to meet them.
Mr. Appell. Or if you visited another Klavern ?
Mr. Otto. Yes ; that would be the only way.
Mr. Appell. But only through membership or personal contact in
a Klavern would a man know the identity of another Klansman ?
Mr. Otto. That is correct.
Mr. Appell. Was it the policy of the United Klans of America of
Texas, if questioned by the FBI or police authorities, to deny member-
ship in the Klan ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know what Mr. Drennan instructed his group,
but I don't think any of our group has ever been questioned by the
Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. Appell. But did you establish a policy that if questioned they
should deny membership in the Klan ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Chairman, the committee in its investigation has
identified of the total membership in Texas, some 250 Klansmen.
However, due to the fact the witness would not know the identity of
the average rank-and-file Klansman, I am asking only about the people
we know in Klavern positions and other positions and therefore I have
no further questions to ask this witness.
Mr. IcHORD. Mr. Otto, you say you submitted your resignation be-
cause you considered some of the members whose names you mentioned
to be undesirable persons .and mifit to be members of the Klan ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir ; I didn't resign because of that reason. You see,
we had two separate and distinct organizations in Texas. Those that
we ejected, there were two lines of thought, there was our line of
thought and Mr. Dremian's line of thought.
Mr. IcHORD. What was your line of thought and what was Mr.
Drennan 's line of thought?
Mr. Otto. Mr. Drennan had what he called secret units, so-called
secret imits, and they were in more or less a standby position, and he
4026 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
would instruct them at sometime or other to commit any act that he
so desired, no advertisement of KLan policy, and so forth and so on.
Mr. loHORD. When you said "line of thought" you meant policy?
Mr. Otfo. Yes.
Our policy was we didn't give a dam whether an FBI agent sat
in our meetings or not. We had open meetings and we didn't care
if it was known or not. They had threatened to use violence
Mr. AsHBROOK. In what specific way ? In the way of bodily harm ?
Mr. Otto. Of bodily harm to our membership. We simply would
not tolerate that sort of stuff and we disassociated ourselves with
them and when we became a realm, 2 days before we became a realm,
our group held a meeting in Houston, Texas, and we established the
policy that if representatives from the other organization would ap-
pear we would not admit them as delegates in the election of officers
and we would not even sit at the same table with them or be asso-
ciated with them. That is about the di fference.
Mr. Senner. Wliat happened ? Did they show up ?
Mr. Otto. They did not.
Mr. Senner. Then why did you resign ?
Mr. Otpo. I resigned because I was tired of all the bickering, .and
so forth, and tired of having my phone tapped and my job threatened.
Mr, Senner. Wlio tapped your phone and who threatened your
job?
Mr. Otto. I don't know who, but I know my phone is tapped and
my automobile insurance has been canceled twice. My wife has lost
her job because of it. The place where she worked, as I understand —
she worked for the Texas Rehabilitation and Research Institute, and
as I understand the director of the institute was in Washington, D.C.,
at the time of the September rally. And he returned to Houston on
the same day my wife returned from her vacation and he informed
my wife that the funds for the Tex.as Rehabilitation and Research
Institute had been cut off until such time as my wife was dismissed
from service, even though she had been there for 7 years.
Mr. Senner. Was this brought about because of general publicity in
the newspaper of the rally ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know why. I only know the director of the in-
stitute returned to Houston from Washington the same day my wife
returned to work after her vacation and he gave the impression he had
orders to fire her and that he got them from Washington.
Mr. Senner. Have you heard of any violence or burnings of the
cross ?
Mr. Otto. We bum a cross at every rally.
Mr. Senner. On private property ?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Senner. And you haven't heard -of any violence of this nature ?
Mr. Otto. Two Klansmen were arrested at Crockett, Texas. As I
understand, they were newly — I don't know if they had been admitted
or had just made application — they were arrested because of intent to
murder, I believe because of an incident in a cafe.
Mr. Senner. Was there any difference in name between the two
factions ?
ACTIVrriES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 4027
Mr. Otto. We called the Drennan faction the Nazi Party because the
instructions he gave his men went down the line of the Nazi Party,
uniforms, et cetera.
Mr. Senner. What did you call your group ?
Mr. Otto. We called our group the United Klans.
Mr. Senner. Going back to this telephone talk you had with Mr.
Shelton, did you initiate the call or did Mr. Shelton ?
Mr. Otto. I initiated all the calls.
Mr. Senner. What was the purpose of initiating the calls, to tell
him you had been subpenaed ?
Mr. Otto. I called him on several occasions.
Mr. Senner. I am referring to the time he suggested you take the
fifth amendment after you had been served with a subpena.
Mr. Otto. I believe it was brought up as a part of the complaint
I had of the way Mr. Drennan was conducting his business in Houston,
and I think the fact I had been subpenaed came up during the conver-
sation.
Mr. Senner. And his advice to you after you had been served with
the subpena was that you should take the fifth amendment before this
committee ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. Senner. Was perjury also brought up in that conversation?
Mr. Otto. No, sir.
Mr. Senner. Is it Brennan or Drennan ?
Mr. Otto. Drennan, D-r-e-n-n-a-n.
Mr. Senner. Did Mr. Shelton recognize the Drennan faction as a
lawful part of the Ku Klux Klan ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know. Mr. Drennan brought the information to
his membership that he was in constant contact with Mr. Shelton. I
don't know if that is true.
Mr. Senner. You were introduced prior to your election as Grand
Dragon of Texas by Mr. Shelton ?
Mr. Otto. Yes.
Mr. Senner. And subsequently you were elected as Grand Dragon ?
Mr. Otto. No.
Mr. Senner. Did vou run for that office ?
Mr. Otfo. No ; I did not run for any office.
Mr. Senner. Did you favor any candidate ?
Mr. Otto. I favored Royce McPhail at the time.
Mr. Senner. I understand he was elected at what time, 11:05?
11:30?
Mr. Otto. Shortly before 12 o'clock, midnight.
Mr. Senner. When did you resign ?
Mr. Otto. I resigned at 12 : 01 a.m. That was 12 : 01 a.m. December
11, to coincide with the date that Texas officially became a realm.
Mr. Senner. In other words, you wanted an official organization
established so that you could resign ?
Mr. Otto. That 'is right. I wanted it established the way I wanted
it established.
Mr. Senner. Was it established the way you wanted it ?
Mr. Otto. At that time it was. At least I thought it was.
Mr. Senner. But in that period of 30 minutes or so
4028 ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S.
Mr. Otto. Not in the 30 minutes ; no. I wasn't dissatisfied with Mr.
McPhail until about a week afterwards that I feared I had been wrong;
in backing Mr. McPhaiL
Mr. Senner. But you resigned a week prior to when you ascertained
the feeling toward Mr. McPhail. Could you explain that to the com-
mittee, when you resigned a w^eek prior ?
Mr. Otto. When I resigned at the same time that we became a realm
and I had been backing Mr. McPhail, up until the time we became a
realm, it was only after I had resigned and after we had become a
realm that my feelings toward Mr. McPhail changed.
Mr. Senner. Now, getting back to your resignation, it wasn't be-
cause of Mr. McPhail because that took a w^eek
Mr. Otto. No, sir; Mr. McPhail had nothing to do with my res-
ignation.
Mr. Senner. Wliat was the purpose of your resignation ?
Mr. Otto. I just wanted to quit. It just was that I had been under
enough pressure.
Mr. Senner. Would you be kind enough to give us the names of
those three persons that you found weapons on ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know who they were. I just shook them all
down.
Mr. Senner. How many did you shake down ?
Mr. Otto. I shook down the whole group.
Mr. Senner. Would that be 20 ?
Mr. Otto. That would be 15 of them.
Mr. Senner. And you found three pistols, at least ?
Mr. Otto. Three or four.
Mr. Senner. You don't remember who you found them on ?
Mr. Otto. I don't know who I got them off of, but we left them at
Mr. Drennan's home before we left.
Mr. IcHORD. Has the gentleman from Ohio any further questions ?
Mr. AsHBROoK. Just one amplification of what you have already
said : Would it be fair to say that through this point of your associa-
tion with the Klan you found yourself in general sympathy with the
overall purposes of the Klan, but when a pattern of violence became
apparent to you, this was the point at which you decided you were not
going to be going forward ?
Mr. Otto. I was in general sympathy with the Klan all alon^.
After about the first week in September I ran the organization to suit
myself. My own faction. I ran it without violence and I built it up
to such a point that I figured it could carry on by itself without my
help any further. I guess I put nearly $3,000 into the Klan.
I was tired of the jeopardy that association with it had given me.
And so when I felt relatively sure that the organization would con-
tinue on as I had built it up, then I resigned because I figured they no
longer needed me, but had it continued along these lines, perhaps I
would have taken the fifth amendment all the way.
Since portions of the Drennan faction had been readmitted to the
group that I was heading, I feel that the Klan has degenerated right
back to the same position it was when I first split off with Drennan.
Mr. AsHBROOK. So there was a considerable tug of war, so to speak ?
Mr. Otto. Very considerable.
ACTIVITIES OF KU KLUX KLAN IN THE U.S. 4029
Mr. AsHBROOK. Between those like yourself who would forward
Klan principles but not advocate violence, as against those in the Klan
movement, both in and out of leadership, who would come closer to
that type of activity during this same time. You found yourself in
some degree of contention with them ?
Mr. Otto. It was a seesaw struggle of power.
Mr. AsHBROOK, You mentioned the Drennan faction. Was there
any indication the Drennan faction was receiving support from the
national headquarters or that their line of approach would have been
looked on with more favor than yours ?
Mr. Otto. Mr. Drennan repeatedly made statements to his group
that he was in constant contact with Mr. Shelton. Now, whether he
lied about that, I don't know.
Mr. AsHBROOK. So there wouldn't be anything that you would-
Mr. Otto. I couldn't tie it up ; no.
Mr. AsHBROOK. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. IcHORD. Before the meeting is adjourned, the chairman will in-
struct the investigator to meet with the witness and prepare a list of
the docimients which he handed over to the committee and to receipt
the witness, Mr. Otto, for the documents.
The Chair will not excuse the witness from his subpena, but continue
the subpena and call for the reappearance of the witness on February
24, which will be subject to change, and if the committee does not want
you to appear on February 24, we will notify you.
Mr. Otto. I don't really believe there would be much else I could
tell you.
Mr. IcHORD. The committee will take that into consideration. I
doubt at this time that you will be recalled, but we will continue the
subpena until February 24 and the staff will keep in contact with you
with regard to any future hearings.
Mr. Otto. All right.
Mr. IcHORD. The meeting will be adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., Friday, January 28, 1966, the subcom-
mittee adjourned.)
o
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