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Full text of "Army Signal Corps - subversion and espionage. Hearings, Eighty-third Congress, first session pursuant to S. Res. 40"

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ARMY SIGNAL CORPS— SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 




HEARINGS ^^^5.<-.V-^.= 

BEFORE THE f^lS. I — (I 

PEKMANEJiT SUBCOMMITTEE ON 

INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON 

GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-THIRD CONGEESS 

FIEST SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

S. Res. 40 



PART 1 



OCTOBER 22, NOVEMBER 24, 25, AND 
DECEMBER 8, 1953 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
40558 WASHINGTON : 1954 



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Boston Public Library 
Superintendent of Documents 



COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 
JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman 



KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota 
MARGARET CHASE SMITH, JLaine 
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho 
EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois 
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland 
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan 



JOHN L. MCCLELLAND, Arkansas 
HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota 
HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 
JOHN P. KENNEDY, Massachusetts 
STUART SYMINGTON. Missouri 
ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina 



Francis D. Flanagan, Chief Counsel 
Waltee L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk 



Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations 

JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman 

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota 
EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois 
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan 

Roy M. Cohn, Chief Counsel 
FRANCIS P. Cabr, Executive Director 



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CONTENTS 



Page 

Appendix 67 

Index 67a 

Testimony of — 

Bernstein, Barry S 1 

Coleman, Aaron Hyman 51,62 

Grundfest, Prof. Harry 43 

Hyman, Harry A 35 

Kitty, Fred Joseph 62 

Levitsky, Joseph 25 

Lotz, Walter Edward, Jr 13 

Rogge, O. John 18 

Sussman, Nathan 57 

EXHIBITS 

Introduced Appears 
oa page on page 

1 (a). Affidavit of David Greenglass, November 22, 1953 19 19 

1 (b). Deposition of David Greenglass, October 29, 1953 19-22 19-22 

2. Excerpt from New York Daily Worker, February 14, 1953. ._ 49 67 

3. Excerpt from New York Daily Worker, December 10, 1952_. 49 (*) 

*May be found in the files of the subcommittee. 

in 



(On October 22, 1953, the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations 
held hearings in executive session on Army Signal Corps — Subversion and 
Espionage. The testimony of Barry S. Bernstein was later made public by 
the members of the subcommittee and follows below:) 

AEMY SIGNAL;C0EPS— SUBYEESION AND ESPIONAGE 



THURSDAY, OCTOBER 22, 1953 

United States Secnate, 
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the 

Committee on Government Operations, 

Fort Monmouth^ N. J. 

The subcommittee met at 11 : 15 a. m., pursuant to notice, in Build- 
ing 302, Fort Monmouth, N. J., Senator Joseph R. McCarthy (chair- 
man) presiding. 

Present : Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin. 

Present also : Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel ; Francis P. Carr, execu- 
tive director; Harold Rainville, administrative assistant to Senator 
Dirksen; Robert L. Jones, executive assistant to Senator Potter; 
John Adams, counselor to the Secretary of the Department of the 
Army; Maj. Gen. Kirk B. Lawton, commanding general, Fort 
Monmouth. 

The Chairman. Will you stand up, sir, and be sworn ? 

In this matter now in hearing before the committee, do you 
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I do. 

The Chairman. Mr. Cohn will ask you some questions, Mr. Bern- 
stein. Your full name is what ? 

TESTIMONY OF BARKY S. BERNSTEIN 

Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Bernstein, where do you live, first of all ? 

Mr. Bernstein. Long Branch. 

Mr. Cohn. And where are you employed? 

Mr. Bernstein. Evans Signal Laboratory. 

Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been employed 
there ? 

Mr. Bernstein. Slightly over 12 years. 

Mr. Cohn. And what is your clearance ? 

Mr. Bernstein. At the present time, my clearance has been lifted, 
I suppose. 

Mr. Cohn. When was your clearance lifted ? 

Mr. Bernstein. Friday last. 

Mr. Cohn. Have you been suspended ? 



2 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Bernstein. No ; I have not been suspended. 

Mr. CoHN. Your clearance was lifted? 

Mr. Bernstein. That is right. 

Mr. CoiiN. Prior to that time, what was your clearance? 

Mr. Bernstein. Well, for the year preceding that, a year and a 
half, I had secret clearance. As far as I know, for a year prior to 
that, I had secret clearance. 

Mr. Cohn. Where did you work ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I worked in the Measurements Section, which is 
part of the Applied Physics Branch. 

Mr. Cohn. And who was the head of that Section ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I was the head of the Section from about August 
of 1952, 1 guess. 

Mr. Cohn. Was there ever any time that you were suspended or 
brought up on loyalty charges? 

Mr. Bernstein. Security charges ; yes. 

Mr. Cohn. When was that ? 

Mr. Bernstein. It was, I think, in January of 1951. 

Mr. Cohn. And on what ground were you suspended then? 

Mr. Bernstein. The security charges read, "Communist sym- 
pathy," essentially. 

Mr. Cohn. In what respect? Give us just as much detail as you 
can recall. 

Mr. Bernstein. I was supposed to have uttered sentiments that ex- 
pressed sympathy for communism. 

Mr. Cohn. What else ? Wasn't there something else ? 

Mr. Bernstein. There were three of them. I can't remember them 
exactly. There were three statements. I don't remember exactly 
what the three were. 

Mr. Cohn. Now, what were those alleged statements ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I don't think that there was mention made of a 
particular statement. It was simply said that I had made such state- 
ments. 

Mr. Cohn. Well, weren't you given at any time any further detail 
as to what those statements were alleged to have been? 

Mr. Bernstein. Well, during the course of my hearing, there were 
a number of things that had come up. 

Mr. Cohn. Tell us what came up. 

Mr. Bernstein. There was a matter of a pamphlet, that I recall. 

Mr. Cohn. A what? 

Mr. Bernstein. A pamphlet. 

Mr. Cohn. Yes? 

Mr. Bernstein. Wliich was called The Atom and the Brass Hat, 
I believe. 

Mr. Cohn. It was entitled what? 

Mr. Bi:rnstein. Tlie Atom and the Brass Hat. 

Mr. Cohn. The Atom and the Brass Hat. By whom was that 
pamphlet put out? 

Mr. Bernstein. I had gotten it from a Friends organization. I 
don't recall the exact name. 

Mr. Cohn. From what? 

Mr. Bernstein. Friends. Quakers. 

Mr. Cohn. What was the substance of that pamphlet ? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 3 

Mr. Bernstein. Essentially it was an argument against universal 
military conscription. 

Mr. CoHN. What else? 

Mr. Bernstein. There was some mention made of AVC, the Ameri- 
can Veterans Committee, of which I was the chairman of the Eastern 
Monmouth Chapter. 

Mr. CoHN. And wasn't the allegation that that was under pro- 
nounced Communist control at that time ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I don't think that the allegation was essentially 
that. I think it was an endeavor to determine whether it was or not. 

The Chairman. Could I interrupt? You had letters of charges 
served on you ? 

Mr. Bernstein. That is right. 

The Chairman. And there were three allegations ? 

Mr. Bernstein. There were three. 

The Chairman. And pardon me if this is a repetition. I was read- 
ing a document here while you were testifying. 

The first allegation was that you had made statements favorable to 
communism ? 

Mr. Bernstein. Sympathetic to communism. 

The Chairman. The second one was that you were an officer of the 
AVC, and that this particular branch of the AVC was Communist- 
dominated ; is that right ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I don't believe this was one of the allegations. 
This came up during the course of the hearing. 

The Chairman. '\Vliat was the second allegation ? 

Mr. Bernstein. As I say, there were three of them, and I can't 
remember them precisely in that order. They all of them seemed to 
be essentially that 

The Chairman. This is a pretty important matter. You had these 
served on you last Fridav ? 

Mr. Bernstein. No, these were previously served on me. 

The Chairman. How long ago ? 

Mr. Bernstein. In 1951. 

The Chairman. And there were three charges against you ? 

Mr. Bernstein. Yes. 

The Chairman. And you say you cannot recall the charges ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I say I cannot recall exactly the particulars. 

The Chairman. Just give them to us generally. 

Mr. Bernstein. My feeling is that essentially they all amounted to 
this allegation that I had pro-Communist sympathy. 

The Chairman. Let us be more specific. This is a very serious 
charge. The first one was that you made statements on occasion sym- 
pathetic to communism. Wliat was the second one ? You know what 
the second one was. 

Mr. Bernstein. No ; I really don't I don't remember them in the 
exact order. I certainly can provide them if you wish. 

The Chairman. ^Vhat was the third one ? Do you know ? 

Mr. Bernstein. No ; I don't. 

The Chairman. No idea? 

Mr. Bernstein. Again, I say that the sum and substance of it, my 
remembrance of it, was that essentially they were all three the one 
thing. 



4 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

The Chairman. How long will it take you to get the charges ? 
Mr. Bernstein. They are in my home. 
The Chairman. How far is your home from here ? 
Mr. Bernstein. Oh, no more than 15 minutes. 
The Chairman. I think we want those. 

The lieutenant will get you transportation to go over and get them. 
Mr. Bernstein. I have my car. I can get them. 
Mr. CoHN. Could we see that letter, Mr. Bernstein ? It will save 
a little time. 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF BARRY S. BERNSTEIN 

Mr. Bernstein. Yes. I have sorted it out. It is on top here. 

Mr. CoHN. Thank you very much. 

Now, Mr. Bernstein has given me a copy of this letter dated Jan- 
uary 11, 1951. The first thing is that you "have stated in frequent dis- 
cussions that living conditions in Russia were superior to those in the 
United States and praised Russia as providing greater racial equali- 
ties, this without any personal knowledge on your part of actual con- 
ditions in Russia, thereby indicating a susceptibility to communistic 
influence." 

Did you ever make any such statement? 

Mr. Bernstein. I did not. 

Mr. CoHN. Anything similar to this? 

Mr. Bernstein. Actually, in the whole course of this thing, I think 
it can be best summarized that at the Appeals Board hearing in Wash- 
ington, a gentleman on the Board made the statement that in the course 
of conversation things can be misconstrued. 

Mr. CoHN (reading) : 

(b) That you favor the Communist system in Russia over the capitalistic 
system in the United States. 

Did you ever say that ? 

Mr. Bernstein. No. I don't hold this. This is quite the antithesis. 

Mr. CoHN (reading) : 

And (c) praised the Russian form of government and attempted to convince 
a fellow employee that the Communist form of government in Russia was 
superior to that of the present system of government in the United States. 

Did you ever say that? 

Mr. Bernstein. No, sir, 

Mr. CoHN. Did you ever say anything similar to those statements? 

Mr. Bernstein. No, I did not. I don't hold these opinions, and I 
don't say them. 

Mr. CoHN. You say there are things that can be misconstrued. 
Taking those three statements there, you would have to go awfully far 
to misconstrue them. Isn't that true ? 

Mr. Bernstein. That is quite true, if they were stated as state- 
ments that I have made. 

Mr. CoiiN. Did you say anything substantially similar? Did you 
say jiny thing which could be misconstrued, to come out with this, as 
just indicated? 

Mr. Bernstein. Of course, this is a two-way proposition. I don't 
know who might have misconstrued them. I never did know. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 5 

Mr. CoHN. Did you say anything which might have been mis- 
construed ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I said nothing that I had intended to be miscon- 
strued. The individual of the second part could possibly have mis- 
construed it. I don't deny this at all. 

Mr. CoHN. Who were some of the individuals that reported these 
statements ? You found that out in the course of the hearing ; did you 
not? 

Mr. Bernstein. No, sir, and it was never told to me. 

Mr. CoHN. Do you have a transcript of the hearing here ? 

Mr. Bernstein. Yes. 

Mr. CoHN. May I see that? 

Mr. Bernstein. Surely. I have a transcript of both the appeals 
hearing and the first hearing. 

The Chairman. Who testified at the first hearing ? 

Mr. Bernstein. Who testified? There were six witnesses of my 
own that testified for me. 

Mr. CoHN. Did anyone testify against you ? 

Mr. Bernstein. No. 

Mr. CoHN. Did anyone testify against you at the second hearing? 

Mr. Bernstein. No. 

The Chairman. Do you know why they did not call the witnesses 
against you ? 

Mr. Bernstein. There was a statement made, as I recall, at the 
first hearing that they had asked the witness to appear and he had 
not appeared. 

Mr. CoHN. Could I see those transcripts ? 

Mr, Bernstein. Yes. This is the first hearing, and this is the 
appeal. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, what was the finding of the Board after the first 
hearing? 

Mr. Bernstein. After the first hearing, I was discharged, and I 
submitted an appeal to the Board in Washington, and, by the Appeals 
Board in Washington I was reinstated. 

Mr. CoHN. I am going to ask you if I can retain this copy and have 
a copy made from it and return this to you. 

Mr. Bernstein. As long as it is returned to me, certainly. 

Mr. CopiN. We will see that it is returned to you in the next couple 
of days. 

The Chairman. Mr. Bernstein, you will be excused until counsel 
has a chance to go over the hearing. 

Just before you leave, one question. I think I asked you this before. 
I am not sure. Did you ever join the Young Communist League? 

Mr. Bernstein. No, sir, I did not. 

The Chairman. Did you ever join the Communist Party? 

Mr. Bernstein. I did not. 

The Chairman. Did you ever attend any meetings of the YCL or 
of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I did not. 

The Chairman. Were you ever asked to join the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Bernstein. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Were you ever asked to attend any Communist 
meetings ? 

Mr. Bernstein. No, sir. 

40558— 54— pt. 1 2 



6 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

The Chairman. Do you know any Communists? 

Mr. Bernstein. I know a Communist who is a member of the AVC 
and admitted to being a Communist. 

Mr. CoHN. What was his name? 

Mr. Bernstein. Bennett Davies. 

Mr. CoHN. Did he work here ? 

Mr. Bernstein. No. 

Mr. CoHN. Did he work for the Army ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I don't know. 

Mr. CoHN. Was there anybody else in the AVC you knew to be 
a Communist? 

Mr. Bernstein. This was the only one I know for a positive fact. 

Mr. Cohn. Let's forget the positive fact. There were some very 
heated discussions down at the AVC. From those, couldn't you make 
a reasonable deduction concerning several there? 

Mr. Bernstein. Several. At the time there were a group of people 
of about 47 who had been out of service, who I would say were inter- 
ested in a democratic ideal and didn't believe particularly that the 
Veterans' Committee was the place for politics, and for this reason 
offered an opinion against the disbarment of the Communist members. 
I don't think that they were Communists at all. 

Mr. CoHN. You said there were several others concerning whom 
you could make the deduction, that they were Communists. 

Mr. Bernstein. I would say this, that the most I could say is that 
perhaps there were some of them that might have been sympathetic. 

Mr. CoHN. Wlio were the several people you feel were sympathetic? 

Mr. Bernstein. Oh, there was a chap by the name of Sockel. 

Mr. Cohn. That is Albert Sockel ? 

Mr. Bernstein. That is correct. 

Mr. CoHN. He worked up here, didn't he ? 

Mr. Bernstein. He worked at Evans ; yes. 

Mr. CoHN. Who else ? 

Mr. Bernstein. Offhand, he is the only one that comes to mind. 

The Chairman. Just a second. You j ust said that there were several 
others you knew. 

Mr. Bernstein. No; I think I said there were several sentiments 
that I could express, that there were several people who expressed 
different sentiments. 

The Chairman. In other words, Sockel was the only man you had 
reason to believe was a Communist in the AVC ? 

Mr. Bernstein. That I had reason to believe was sympathetic. 

The Chairman. There was no one else? 

Mr. Bernstein. Except the one chap, Bennett Davies, who made a 
positive statement to this effect. 

The Chairman. And during all the time you were in this AVC 
chapter, you had no reason to believe there was anyone else, except the 
two you mentioned, who were sympathetic to communism? 

Mr. Bernstein. Well, as I say, this is the name that comes back 
to me now, Levinson. 

Mr. Cohn. Was it Norman Levinson? 

Mr. Bernstein. No ; it wasn't Norman. It may have been Gabriel. 

Mr. Cohn. Was Levinson working up here ? 

Mr. Bernstein. No ; he was in his own business, as I recall, or his 
father's business. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 7 

The Chairman. Did you ever visit in the home of Da vies? 

Mr. Bernstein. No. He was at my house, as a member of an exec- 
utive committee. 

The Chairman. Did the executive committee meet occasionally at 
your home ? 

Mr. Bernstein. Every once in a while. 

The Chairman. Were you on the executive committee ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I was the chairman of the chapter. 

The Chairman. The chairman of the chapter ? 

Mr, Bernstein. For a period of time ; yes. 

The Chairman. And the chapter voted to expel the Communists at 
one time, did it? 

Mr. Bernstein. I think the chapter hit its demise on this particular 
issue, and the particular action we took was recognizing that there was 
this problem involved. We were organized, I might say, on a sort of 
eastern Monmouth County basis. 

The Chairman. This is just a simple question. Did the chapter 
vote to expel the Communists ? 

Mr. Bernstein. It took a vote on it. I don't recall the outcome. 

The Chairman. You knew they took a vote to expel the Communists, 
but you did not know the outcome of the vote ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I am sorry, sir. I don't know exactly what the 
outcome was. 

The Chairman. You were chairman of the group. 

Mr. Bernstoin. That is correct. 

The Chairman. And you do not know how they voted ? 

Mr. Bernstein. Oh, I do know how they voted. When I say I don't 
know the outcome, I couldn't tell you whether it was 25-24, or some- 
thing of this nature. 

The Chairman, I just asked you a simple question, whether they 
voted to bar the Communists, and you said you didn't know the out- 
come. 

Mr. Bernstein. Specifically, sir. 

The Chairman. You do know the outcome. They voted not to bar 
the Communists? 

Mr. Benrstein. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How did you vote ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I did not vote, I was the chairman. 

The Chairman. And do you know how the different members 
voted ? Do you have a record of it ? 

Mr. Bernstein. No ; as I recall, it was a closed vote and not signed. 

The Chairman. It was a secret ballot ? 

Mr. Bernstein. A secret ballot. 

Mr. Cohn. How did the Leeds brothers vote ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I don't recall the Leeds brothers as being members 
of AVC. 

Mr. CoHN. Was anyone presently employed at Monmouth a member 
of AVC at that time? 

Mr, Bernstein. Presently employed? Yes; there are some people 
that are presently employed. 

Mr. CoHN. Let's have the names. 

Mr. Bernstein. One I think of was Katz, Max Katz. I think he is 
at Squier. 



8 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. CoHN. How did he vote on it? 

Mr. Bernstein. Gee, I don't know. It was a closed ballot. 

The Chairman. Did he not tell you? Did not Katz get up and 
argue against barring the Communists ? 

Mr. Bernstein. No. I would say that Katz was one of the persons 
who resolved that they should be barred. 

The Chairman. Did you argue either way on it? 

Mr. Bernstein. I am afraid not. I was the chairman of the 
meeting. 

The Chairman, Did you speak the night you had the final vote ? 

Mr. Bernstein. Only to chair the meeting. 

The Chairman. Did you speak for or against barring the 
Communists ? 

Mr. Bernstein. No; I did not. 

The Chairman. Who S])oke against barring the Conununists? 

Mr. Bernstein. Generally, I would say that the expression was 
from Davies and Levinson. 

The Chairman. Who else? 

Mr. Bernstein. I am afraid these are the only two that I can 
recall. 

The Chairman. What was your view, whether you voted or not? 

Mr. Bernstein. At the time I did not think so. I was among those 
who felt that it was not a political organization. 

The Chairman- You felt the Communists should not be barred? 

Mr. Bernstein. That is correct. 

The Chairman. And what year was this? 

Mr. Bernstein. 1947, 1 believe. 

The Chairman. Now, to refresh your recollection, you say you do 
not recall the outcome. By that, you explained, you meant you did not 
know the vote. Was not the vote 47 against barring them ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I really don't know. 

The Chairman. Don't you know? 

Mr. Bernstein. No; I really don't. 

The Chairman. What was the membership? 

Mr. Bernstein. The membership has varied. 

The Chairman. Roughly ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I remember this much of it. Of the particular 
vote we had, a motion was passed and carried that we solicit the bal- 
lots of the membership through the mail, because we had a rather 
small turnout. Our enrollment on paper was something on the order 
of 50, 1 imagine. 

The Chairman. Did you get the ballots by mail ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I could not say. I think they were sent out. 

The Chairman. You say you did not vote, because you were chair- 
man ? 

Mr. Bernstein. That is correct, I did not vote. 

The Chairman. If there had been a tie vote, you would have had to 
vote? 

Mr. Bernstein. I would have had to vote. 

The Chairman. And at that time you were against barring them? 

Mr. Bernstein. I was. 

The Chairman. So if you were called upon to vote, you would have 
voted against barring the Communists ? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 9 

Mr. Bernsteix. That is right, sir. 

The Chairman. Were you working at the Signal Corps lab at that 
time ? 

Mr. Bernstein. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. Did yon think Communists should be barred from 
working in the Signal Corps lab ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I don't think I thought of it at that particular 
time, sir. 

Mr.CoHN. In 1947? 

Mr. Bernstein. In 1947. 

The Chairman. Some of your fellow AVC members and you were 
working here. Did you think at that time that Communists should 
be working here ? Did you have any feeling on it at all ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I am afraid I didn't. 

The Chairman. So if you knew of a Communist working here at 
that time, you would have had no feeling that you ought to report that 
to the FBI, or anything ? 

Mr. Bernstein. If I knew of some one working here. Communist 
or not, that was doing something I thought improper, I certainly 
would. 

The Chairman. I am not speaking of whether you caught them in 
the act of espionage. I am asking you whether or not in 1947, if you 
knew that there was a Communist handling secret material, you felt 
bound to report that to your commanding officer or the FBI. 

Mr. Bernstein. I don't know, sir. 

The Chairman. You had no feeling on that ? 

Mr. Bernstein. Not at that particular time. 

The Chairman. As of today, if you knew of a Communist han- 
dling secret material, would you report it ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I would. 

The Chairman. Sometime between 1947 and 1953 your thought 
on this changed. Would you tell us when you arrived at a state of 
mind where you thought that a Communist would have been danger- 
ous in the Evans lab ? 

Mr. Bernstein, I think it evolved from the entire episode of the 
AVC demise and the way it broke up. I think we clearly saw some 
responsible fingers in this particular matter. Most of us had joined 
the AVC, I guess, because of its motto, "Citizens first, veterans second.'' 
and we felt that we could return to citizenship, and it was a rather 
glorious thing to us. And to see it crumble the way it did, and I 
believe on this particular issue and because of these particular senti- 
ments — that was the first occasion I had to appreciate this point. 

The Chairman. Now, in 1947, you thought Communists should 
belong to the AVC. In 1947, you say you did not know whether you 
would report a Communist to your commanding officer or the FBI if 
he were handling secret material. In '53, you say you would report 
him. The question is : In what year did you decide that a Communist 
was dangerous? 

Mr. Bernstein. It is hard to pin a year. I would say it was out of 
the episode of '47. 

The Chairman. Roughly '48, '49, '50 ? 

Mr. Bernstein. About '48. 

The Chairman. You decided it because the AVC broke up? 



10 ARIVIY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

]\Ir. Bernstein. Because I saw the influence these people had. It 
was rather shameful to me that people who I felt had spirit could not 
defeat what I considered a rather small core and couldn't continue to 
grow in the manner that we thought proper. 

Tlie Chairman. And you say it broke up because you voted not to 
bar Communists. The non-Communists left the AVC, did they not? 

Mr. Bernstein. No. Actually, what happened — we made an at- 
tempt to retain the AVC on a smaller basis. 

The Chairman. Let us get this record straight now. You voted 
not to bar the Communists. Thereafter the non-Communists quit the 
AVC, did they not? So you only had Communists left? 

Mr. Bernstein. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Let us make the record clear. You voted not to 
bar them, by a very sizable vote. Is is not a fact that when you had 
that vote the anti-Communists became dissatisfied and dropped out? 

ISIr, Bernstein. No, sir. I would say not. 

The Chairman. Did any of them drop out, any of the anti-Com- 
munists? 

Mr. Bernstein. All along the line, as I said, we had a mailing list 
of a certain number, and a regular attendance that was considerably 
less than this. And we were losing members in this particular all 
the way along, for various reasons. 

Now, if I may : We made an attempt 

The Chairman. You may step down. 

Mr. CoHN. We are going to study that transcript. 

What is your title at the present time out here, Mr. Bernstein? 

Mr. Bernstein. I have just been relieved from the title of Chief, 
Measurements Section. 

INIr. CoiiN. You have not been suspended, have you ? 

Mr. Bernstein. No ; I have not. 

Mr. CoHN. You were Chief of the Measurements Section ? 

Mr. Bernstein. That is right. 

The Chairman. In other words, you cannot go into any of the labs 
that handle secret or confidential material? 

Mr. Bernstein. That is right. 

Mr. CoiiN. Was your clearance secret or top secret, Mr. Bernstein? 

Mr. Bernstein. Secret, not top secret. 

The Chairman. What kind of work are you doing right now ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I haven't been at work. I have had a bad cold. I 
have been out for the last 4 days. 

Mr. CoiiN. Have you ever taken classified material out of your lab 
to your home? 

Mr. Bernstein. I have taken classified material to a conference. 

Mr. CoiiN. But have you ever taken any to your home ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I have not taken any out to my home. 

Mr. CoHN. Would you say it was a general practice to take secret 
material home? 

Mr. Bernstein. I wouldn't say it was a general practice. I knew 
it had occurred. 

Mr. CoiiN. Who did it? Can you name anyone? 

Mr. Bernstein. No, this is just something I know of. I don't know 
people by name. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE H 

The Chairman. You may step down. We will want you further. 
You may consider yourself under subpena. 

Mr. CoHN. How many people worked under you? 

Mr. Bernstein. There are 17 people in the Section. 

The Chairman. Up until you were suspended Friday, you had 
access to secret material ? 

Mr. Bernstein. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Up until your clearance was lifted Friday, you had 
access to secret material. 

Mr. Bernstein. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. AVhat is your salary? 

Mr. Bernstein. Eighty-three-forty. 

Mr. CoHN. Of what college are you a graduate? 

Mr. Bernstein. City College of New York. 

Mr. CoHN. In what year ? 

Mr. Bernstein. I finished up at night school in 1941. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you know Julius Rosenberg at City College? 

Mr. Bernstein. No ; I did not. 

Mr. CoHN. Morton Sobell? 

Mr. Bernstein. No. 

Mr. CoHN. William Mutterperl? 

Mr. Bernstein. No. 

Mr. CoHN. Aaron Coleman? 

Mr. Bernstein. I knew him here, not at City College. 

Mr. CoHN. Were there any you knew at City College who have 
worked here ? 

Mr. Bernstein. Quite a number. 

Mr. CoHN. Are there any you knew or suspected to be Communists ? 

Mr. Bernstein. No, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you know Carl Greenblum? 

Mr. Bernstein. No ; I did not. 

The Chairman. Is it your testimony that you never attended a 
Young Communist League meeting at City College ? 

Mr. Bernstein. That is correct, sir. 

The Chairman. No meeting that you had any reason to suspect 
was a Communist meeting ? 

Mr. Bernstein. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You will be called back. I suggest that you refresh 
your recollection especially as to whether you attended a number of 
meetings in either the spring or the fall of 1939. 

Mr. Bernstein. In City College? 

The Chairman. In New York, YCL meetings. 

(Whereupon, at 4 p. m., a recess was taken, to reconvene at 8 p. m., 
in room 29, Federal Building, New York, N. Y.) 



AEMY SIGNAL CORPS-SUBYEESION AND ESPIONAGE 



tuesday, november 24, 1953 

United States Senate, 
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the 

Committee on Government Operations, 

New York City, N. Y. 

The subcommittee met at 10 : 35 a. m., pursuant to call, in room 110, 
Federal Building, Foley Square, New York City, N. Y., Senator 
Joseph R. McCarthy (chairman) presiding. 

Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin. 

Present also : Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel ; Francis P. Carr, executive 
director ; and Daniel G. Buckley, assistant counsel. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

We received word this morning from the other three Senators on the 
committee. Senator Potter is unable to be here because he is out of 
the United States, and is due to return very shortly. Senator Mundt 
and Senator Dirksen are tied up in their home States, and they are 
making arrangements to come in for future hearings. 

This, as you know, is the first public hearing going into the alleged 
espionage and alleged Communist infiltration of the Army Signal 
Corps at Fort Monmouth. 

The first witness, Mr. Cohn. 

Mr. Cohn. The first witness is Colonel Lotz of the Signal Corps. 

I wonder if you would take this chair right down here, if you 
will. 

I may say we welcome the legal counsel of the Secretary of the 
Army here, Mr. John Adams. Will you take a chair, Mr. Adams? 

Will you raise your right hand and be sworn ? In this matter now 
in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly swear to tell the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Colonel Lotz. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF COL. WALTER EDWARD LOTZ, JR. 

Mr, Cohn. Would you give us your full name, please, Colonel 
Lotz? 

Colonel Lotz. Walter Edward Lotz, Jr., L-o-t-z. 

Mr. Corn. Where are you stationed now. Colonel ? 

Colonel Lotz. I am currently stationed in the Office of the Chief 
Signal Officer, Washington, D. C., and I am assigned to the Engineer- 
ing and Technical Division of that Office. 

Mr. Cohn. Do you have any connection with research and devel- 
opment ? 

13 

40558— 54— pt. 1 3 



14 ARAiy SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Colonel LoTz. Yes, sir. The Engineering and Technical Division 
supervises the research and development progi'am of the Signal Corps. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Colonel Lotz, I would like to ask you this right 
now : Can you give to the committee a brief picture of the fields for 
which the Army Signal Corps is responsible ? 

Colonel LoTz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I am going to have to ask the men with the news- 
reel cameras and television to try and maintain a bit more order. 
It is almost impossible to conduct a hearing with all of the con- 
fusion, and sooner or later you are going to have to try to pool your 
efforts so that less camera will be used here. It is extremely difficult to 
conduct a hearing under these circumstances. 

Colonel LoTz. The Signal Corps has responsibilities within the 
Department of the Army for the fields of wire and radio communi- 
cation, for television, for sound and light, for photography and 
meteorolog}^ and for some phases of radar. 

Now, by that last statement, I mean that during World War II 
the Signal Corps had responsibility for all phases of radar, but in 
about 1945 the responsibility for radar equipments peculiar to the 
Air Forces, such as airborne radar components, and early warning 
radar equipments for air defense purposes' — the responsibilities for 
these equipments was passed to the then Army Air Corps. 

In 1946 and thereafter, certain other phases of radar, including the 
radar equipments which are an integral part of fire-control systems 
and radar equipments for guided missies, were passed in responsi- 
bility to other Army agencies. 

Mr. CoHN. Is the Signal Corps responsible for research and de- 
velopment in the radar field ? 

Colonel LoTz. Yes, sir, they are, within the fields that I mentioned. 

Mr. CoHN. I would like to ask you this. Colonel — I think it will 
be important for the future evidence which will develop : Without 
revealing any classified information, could you give us a brief ex- 
planation of the purposes for which radar is used ? 

Colonel LoTZ. Yes, sir. The name "radar" is derived from an ab- 
breviation of radio detection and ranging. Now, with radar equip- 
ment we are able to detect the presence of and location of certain 
types of objects. Kadar is used to detect the approach of and the 
actual location of various types of hostile targets. 

Mr. CoHN. Can you tell us the physical location, where and in what 
manner the Signal Corps carries out its responsibilities with reference 
to radar ? 

Colonel LoTz. Within the Signal Corps our principal research and 
development agency is the Signal Corps Engineering Laboratories, 
with headquarters at Fort Monmouth, N. J. This agency has three 
separate laboratories. Coles, Squier, and Evans Signal Laboratory. 

Mr. CoiiN. C-o-l-e-s, and S-q-u-i-e-r, and E-v-a-n-s. Those are the 
three Monmouth laboratories? 

Colonel Lotz. That is right. 

Now, the radar work is primarily conducted at Evans Laboratory. 
In addition to these agencies of the Signal Corps, we do a considerable 
amount of work by contracting with commercial laboratories. 

Mr. CoHN. I wonder if you could name for us — I know you can- 
not name all, but could you name for us some of the leading com- 
mercial companies which do this Signal Corps work ? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 15 

Colonel LoTz. Of course, a list of companies with which we con- 
tract is rather large, but some of the more prominent companies that 
we deal with are Radio Corporation of America, General Electric 
Co. 

Mr. CoHN. General Electric? 

Colonel LoTZ. Yes, sir. 

Bendix Aviation Co., Emerson Radio Co., Sperry Gyroscope Co., 
and there are many others, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, high up on that list, do you have the Raytheon 
and Glenn Martin, as well ? 

Colonel LoTZ. Yes, sir ; that is one of our principal companies, and 
we do quite a bit of contracting with Glenn L. Martin Co. 

Mr. CoHN. Is another one the Federal Telecommunications Lab- 
oratories ? 

Colonel LoTZ. Yes, sir ; we do contract with those laboratories. 

Mr. CoHN. Wliere is that laboratory located ? 

Colonel LoTz. That is at Nutley, N. J. 

Mr. CoHN. Can you tell us whether or not, since 1946, the Federal 
Telecommunications Laboratory has handled any classified contracts 
for the Signal Corps ? 

Colonel LoTz. Yes, sir; they have. 

Mr. CoHN. Have any of those classified contracts gone as high as 
"secret" ? 

Colonel LoTz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN". And is the Federal Telecommunications Laboratory do- 
ing work for the Signal Corps right now? 

Colonel LoTz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. May I suggest it might be well at this time to put 
a definition of "secret" into the record, if we may have that. 

Mr. CoHN. Could you tell us. Colonel, lust what you mean bv 
"secret"? 

_ Colonel LoTz. Yes, sir ; "secret" classification is assigned to mate- 
rial and information, the unauthorized disclosure of which would 
endanger our national security or would cause serious injury to our 
national interest or be of great advantage to a foreign nation. 

Mr. CoHN. I would like to ask you this — but before we leave the 
question of companies doing work for the Signal Corps, 1 or 2 other 
names might be mentioned in these hearings, and I want to ask you 
about them. How about the ARMA — A-R-M-A — Corp. ; do they do 
any Signal Corps work? 

Colonel LoTz. I believe we do some with ARMA. 

Mr. CoHN. How about Espey — E-s-p-e-y ? 

Colonel LoTZ. I believe so. 

Mr. CoHN. The ARMA Corp. is located in Brooklyn, N. Y., is it? 

Colonel LoTZ. I believe that is where their main office is, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Colonel, I would like to ask you about this, which 
will be of considerable importance in these hearings : Is some device 
called the proximity fuse related to the work of the Signal Corps ? 

Colonel LoTz. Well, during World War II the Signal Corps had 
the responsibility for the procurement of devices known as proximity 
fuses, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Can you tell us, again without revealing classified infor- 
mation, just what the function of a proximity fuse is? 



16 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Colonel LoTZ. Well, the proximity fuse is a type of fuse that is 
attached to bombs or shells or rocket warheads that ^Yill detonate those 
devices in flight. When they come within effective range of their 
targets, if those fuses are attached, for example, to one of these devices, 
it is not necessary that they come in contact or impact with their target. 

Mr. CoHN. In other words, the bombs, or whatever it might be, will 
explode without an actual impact with the target ? The fuse will set 
them off? 

Colonel LoTZ. That is right, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Can you tell us, again without revealing classified infor- 
mation, just how big, physically, a proximity fuse is? 

Colonel LoTZ. Of course, there are various types of these fuses. 

Mr. CoHN. But of the Signal Corps one in particular. 

Colonel LoTZ. The type that we Avere procuring in the Signal Corps 
during the war ran, say, 10 inches long, and maybe 4 or 5 inches in 
diameter, and probably weighed a couple of pounds, 2 or 3 pounds. 

Mr. CoHN, Would it be possible to place one of these proximity 
fuses in a briefcase ? Were they that small ? 

Colonel LoTZ. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. I would like to ask you this, Colonel : What was the 
classification of the proximity fuse during World War II ? 

Colonel LoTZ. It was "secret," sir. 

Mr. CoHN. The classification was "secret"? 

Colonel LoTz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. You have already given us a definition of "secret"; is 
that right ? 

Colonel LoTz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. "Secret" classification is assigned to information, unau- 
thorized disclosure of which would endanger national security, cause 
serious injury to the interests of our Nation, or be of great advantage 
to a foreign nation ; is that correct ? 

Colonel LoTz. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Colonel, has the Army made available to this com- 
mittee a copy of the personnel file of Julius Rosenberg ? 

Colonel LoTZ. Yes ; it has. 

Mr. CoHN. And have you, at the request of the committee and the 
Army, examined this personnel file of Julius Rosenberg? 

Colonel LoTz. I have, sir. 

Mr. ConN. Can you ascertain from that whether or not Julius 
Rosenberg was employed by the Army Signal Corps at any time? 

Colonel LoTZ. I have ascertained that Julius Rosenberg was em- 
ployed by the United States Army Signal Corps from 1940 until early 

1945, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Can you tell us again with reference to this Rosenberg 
file, which the Army has made available to us, whether or not Rosen- 
berg, when employed by the Army Signal Corps, actually had access 
to the proximity fuse which we have been discussing? 

Colonel LoTZ. The file indicates that during his Signal Corps em- 
ployment, Rosenberg had been assigned as an inspector to the Emerson 
Radio Co., and during that period of time he was inspecting the pro- 
duction of a type of proximity fuse, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. And was this around 1944 or 1945 ? 

Colonel LoTZ. Yes, sir. 



i 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 17 

Mr. CoHN. What was the classification of the proximity fuse at the 
time Rosenberg was inspecting it for the Signal Corps? 

Colonel LoTZ. It was "secret," sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Is that still classified? 

Colonel LoTZ. Yes, sir ; it is still classified. 

Mr. CoHN. Was it downgraded in later years? 

Colonel LoTZ. Yes, sir. After the war, in about 1948, June of 1948, 
that particular device which Rosenberg had access to was downgraded 
from "secret" to "confidential." 

Mr. CoHisr. And it still remains classified "confidential"; is that 
correct ? 

Colonel LoTZ. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. And a "confidential" classification applies to those 
things, unauthorized disclosure of which would be prejudicial to the 
interests of our Nation, or would be of advantage to a foreign nation? 

Colonel LoTZ. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. That is "advantage" rather than "great advantage"? 

Colonel LoTZ. That is right, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Colonel Lotz, if Julius Rosenberg, when employed 
by the Signal Corps, had stolen one of these fuses and given it to a 
foreign power, would that have resulted in a serious menace to the 
security of this country ? 

Colonel LoTZ. Well, all I can say to that is that it was classified 
"secret" at the time that Rosenberg had access to it. 

Mr. CoiiN. You have given us the definition of "secret." 

Colonel LoTZ. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Colonel, I want to ask you this : Can you tell us 
generally speaking, in general terms, what is involved in this field of 
electronics ? 

Colonel Lotz. Well, electronics is a rather broad field, but in general 
it would include the devices which contain vacuum tubes and other 
components which perform the functions of vacuum tubes. 

Mr. CoHN. I would like to ask you this : Has the Signal Corps been 
concerned with electronic valves and vacuum tubes ? 

Colonel LoTz. Well, we are concerned with vacuum tubes. By 
"valves," I presume you mean the British terminology where "elec- 
tronic valves" is equivalent to the American name of "vacuum tube." 

Mr. CoHN. They are really synonymous terms? 

Colonel LoTZ. They are. 

Mr. CoHN. And the Signal Corps has been and is concerned with 
vacuum tubes ? 

Colonel LoTz. Yes, sir, we are concerned with that within the Army. 

Mr. CoHN. Wliere in particular, or at what physical location are 
these vacuum tubes worked on ? 

Colonel Lotz. Our vacuum tube work is done at Evans Signal 
Laboratory, and of course we, like all research and development pro- 
grams, subcontract that work to various industrial concerns. 

Mr. CoiiN. That is the Evans Signal Laboratory at Fort Monmouth, 
which you have described? 

Colonel LoTZ. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoTiN. Does the Signal Corps, in addition, have responsibility 
for capacitors, c-a-p-a-c-i-t-o-r-s? 

Colonel Lotz, Yes, sir. We deal with capacitors. They are fairly 
common electronic components. 



18 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. CoHN. And where are they worked on, commonly? 

Colonel LoTz. The work that we were doing on those would be done 
at Squier Signal Laboratory at Fort Monmouth, and there again, that 
work might be contracted to some commercial organization. 

Mr. CoHN. How about transformers ? 

Colonel LoTZ. Yes, sir, they are electronic components also. 

Mr. Cot IN. Would they be worked on at Squier, also? 

Colonel LoTz. Yes, sir, 

Mr. CoHN. Does the Signal Corps have responsibility for the prepa- 
ration of tube manuals? 

Colonel LoTZ. Yes, sir, we do, for tubes peculiar to military re- 
quirements. 

Mr. CoHN. Where would that work be done ? 

Colonel LoTZ. That would be done at Evans, and other agencies, 
Squier, and so on, and perhaps also at contractors' plants, but more 
likely to be done at one of our laboratories. 

Mr. CoiiN. I assume that the classification of the tube manual would 
depend upon the classification of the vacvuim tube to which it is ad- 
dressed, would that be, generally speaking, true? 

Colonel LoTZ. Normally, the tube manual would be classified, since 
it gives details of the tubes that are listed in it. It would normally 
be classified with the highest classification of any tube that was listed 
in it. 

Mr. CoHN. Thank you. 

I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. I have one question. Colonel. If a Communist were 
to have access to Signal Corps material up until, we will say, 1953, do 
you consider that extremely dangerous to the security of this Nation ? 

Colonel LoTZ. That would depend upon the classification of that 
material, sir. 

The Chairman. If they had access to the general run of material at 
Fort Monmouth ? 

Colonel LoTz. Any unauthorized access would be dangerous, sir. 

Mr, CoHN. That is the purpose of classifying material, is that right ? 

Colonel LoTZ. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. I have no further questions. 

Mr. CoHN. Thank you very much, Colonel. We appreciate your 
cooperation. 

I wonder if at this time we could ask Mr. O. John Rogge to come 
forward. 

STATEMENT OF 0. JOHN ROGGE, AN ATTORNEY 

Mr. CoHN. You are a member of the bar of the State of New York, 
and admitted to practice in the Federal courts, is that correct ? 

Mr. RoGGE. That is right. 

Mr. Cohn. And you have represented various witnesses before this 
committee, is that correct? 

Mr, Rogge, I have. 

Mr. Cohn. Mr. Rogge, have you for a number of years acted as 
counsel to David Greenglass? 

Mr, Rogge. I have. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 19 

Mr. CoHN. And did you have occasion to talk with David Green- 
glass in recent weeks ? 

Mr. RoGGE. Yes, I did. 

Mr. CoHN. Would you describe that for the committee ? 

Mr. RoGGE. The circumstances were these: In the investigation 
which this committee is conducting into espionage, the clients whom 
I represent, of whom David Greenglass is one, will cooperate with the 
committee. Pursuant to that position, various representatives of the 
committee — yourself, Mr. Cohn, and Mr. Schine, and Mr. Carr — and 
I went down to Lewisburg and conferred with Mr. Greenglass. I 
conferred with him first, and he indicated that he was willing to 
cooperate. 

I think that I should add in fairness to David Greenglass that he 
has cooperated with the Government almost from the beginning, and 
he is continuing that cooperation. 

Pursuant to that position, both you and Mr. Schine questioned him, 
and Mr, Carr took notes. Afterward, those were reduced to written 
form, and questions and the answers which David Greenglass made 
were submitted to him, and he went over them, and I have a copy 
of those questions and answers. I can say to you that they correctly 
represent questions that were asked of David Greenglass, and answers 
that he gave. 

Mr. Cohn. We want to thank you very much, Mr. Rogge, for your 
cooperation with the committee and the trouble which we have occa- 
sioned you with that trip to Lewisburg. 

Mr. Chairman, Mr. Buckley, assistant counsel for the committee, 
has produced here the sworn affidavit of David Greenglass, accompany- 
ing the questions and answers which have been referred to by Mr. 
Rogge, and I wonder if I might read them into the record at this 
time. 

The Chairman. I think that is an excellent idea. 

Mr. Cohn (reading) : 

Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, 

County of Union, ss: 

David Greenglass, being duly sworn, deposes and says : 

I have read the attached interrogatory consisting of four typewritten pages 
and I incorporate everything contained therein in this affidavit. 

I have placed my initials and the date on each of the attached four pages. 

I have carefully read each question and each answer which appear on the 
attached four pages and I declare that the questions were those that were asked 
of me and the answers were that which I gave. 

David Gkeenglass, 

Subscribed to and sworn to before me this 22d day of November 1953. 

G. W. Humphrey, WcM'den. 
Authorized by the act of February 11, 1938, to administer oaths. 



Interrogation of David Greenglass conducted at the United States Penitentiary, 
Lewisburg, Pa., October 1953. 

Q. What is your name? — A. David Greenglass. 

Q. You realize a subpena has been sent to you in care of Warden Humphrey? — 
A. Yes, I do. 

Q. Have you talked with your attorney, Mr. Rogge? — A. Yes, he was up here 
and I told him I would cooperate. 

Q. Are you incarcerated in Lewisburg Penitentiary? — A. Yes. I am serving 
a 15-year term. 



20 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Q. For what? — A. Conspiracy to commit espionage. 

Q. Did you plead guilty in Federal court, New York, to conspiracy to commit 
espionage in which Julius Rosenberg and others were involved? — A. Yes, I did. 

Q. Did you yourself give atomic secrets to Rosenberg and to Harry Gold for 
transmission to Russia? — A. Yes. When I was stationed at Los Alamos at the 
atomic bomb project, I passed sketches and other information on the bomb to 
Rosenberg and to Gold at their request. 

Q. After you were discharged from the service and left Los Alamos did you 
have occasion to learn anything further about the espionage activities of the 
Rosenberg ring? — A. Yes, I was told more. 

Q. Under what circumstances? — A. Rosenberg and I went into the metal goods 
manufacturing business together in New, York in 1946. While we were together, 
Rosenberg told me certain things about the secrets and material they stole for 
Russia. Also around the period after Harry Gold's arrest, when Rosenberg was 
trying to get me to leave the United States and go to Russia, I found out more 
from him about those involved in the ring. 

I think the public record shows that that was 1950. 

Q. Did you learn if there was espionage in the Army Signal Corps? — A. Yes; 
I learned that there was espionage in the Army Signal Cori)s. I learned that 
the Rosenberg ring took and obtained secrets from the Army Signal Corps and 
transmitted them to Russia. 

Q. Will you give us some of the details concerning your knowledge of espio- 
nage in the Signal Corps? — A. Yes. Rosenberg told me that the Russians had 
a very small and a very poor electronics industry (this is, of course, another 
name for the radar industry) and that it was of the utmost importance that 
information of an electronics nature be obtained and gotten to him. Things like 
electronics valves (vacuum tubes), capacitors, transformers, and various other 
electronic and radio components were some of the things he was interested in. 

Rosenberg also told me that he gave all of the tube manuals he could get his 
hands on to Russia, some of which were classified "top secret." 

I think, Mr. Chairman, you will recall from Colonel Lotz' testi- 
mony that vacuum tubes and tube manuals were worked on at Evans 
Signal Laboratory and its contractors. 

The Chairman. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN (reading) : 

About 1947. at a time when it was a top United States scientific secret, Julius 
Rosenberg told me about information he had obtained from a friend relating to 
a thinking machine which would send out interceptor guided missiles to knock 
out an enemy's guided missiles which had been detected by our radar and its 
course predicted by our thinking machines. Rosenberg was discussing this 
information with me, as I said before, when it was a top American scientific 
secret. 

The Chairman. I think the record should show that the term 
"thinking machine" is a term applied to certain radar devices. 
Mr. CoiiN. That is correct, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. That is the term that is used in the Signal Corps. 
Mr. CoHN (reading) : 

Of course, it must be remembered that Rosenberg was employed by the Signal 
Corps during World War II and worked at Fort Monmouth and at other places 
which were working on prime or subcontracts for the Signal Corps such as the 
Emerson Radio Corp. At one time, too, Roscnbei-g was an inspector for the 
Signal Corps. 

After the war when Rosenberg and I were in business together in New York, 
Rosenberg used his Signal Corps contacts in attempts to obtain contracts for Pitt 
Machine Products and the G. & R. Engineering Co. 

That is the Greenglass & Rosenberg Engineeriug Co. 

As a matter of fact, Julius made a number of trips to Signal Corps officials in 
Philadelphia for this purpose. 

Once when I questioned Julius about the necessity of the frequent Philadelphia 
trips, he answered that not only were the trips necessary for company business 
but also because he had to see his espionage contacts. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 21 

I also recall that in New York City there was a purchasing agent in the Air 
Corps whom Julius had met in the Signal Corps sometime earlier when both were 
with the Signal Corps. Julius was in contact with this individual and went to 
see him regularly. 

Q. Did Rosenberg tell you anything about working on the proximity fuse 
while he was at the Signal Corps installation at Emerson?— A. Yes. Rosenberg 
told roe that while he was employed for the Signal Corps at Emerson he stole 
the proximity fuse and gave it to the Russians. 

Q. Did Rosenberg tell you exactly how he accomplished this theft? — A. Yes. 
Julius told me that it was his practice to bring his lunch to work in a briefcase. 
He said that he was actually able to place a proximity fuse in the briefcase and 
walk out of the Emerson plant with it. 

Q. Did Rosenberg tell you what he did with the proximity fuse once he had 
stolen it? — A. Yes. He told me that he handed it over to a Russian agent. 

Q. Was Rosenberg the only member of the ring who committed espionage in 
the Signal Corps? — A. No. There were others. 

Q. Would you give us details on what you know about the others? — A. Yes. 
There was Joel Barr. He worked out at Fort Mommouth with the Signal 
Corps and later he worked with Sperry Gryroscope in Lake Success, N. Y. 
Julius, at this time, was trying to get me to leave the country, hoping that I 
would not be caught and thereby expose the spy ring. When I differed with 
Julius on the method of leaving the country, he said that I should leave via the 
port of New York, taking a steamship to France. 

When I remonstrated with Rosenberg saying that this was not a very good 
method since I would be under the eye of the FBI and the State Department, 
Julius said that more important people than I had left by this route. When 
I asked who they were, Julius said "Joel Barr, for one." Julius had told me 
that Barr was one of those who had given him information on electronic appa- 
ratus. Rosenberg then mentioned that he had gotten the information on the 
thinking machines from Barr. 

Originally Julius had said that Barr had gone to Belgium to study music. 

Julius said that there were others who gave him information relating to 
electronics. For example, he once told me he had an espionage agent at General 
Electric who, like all of his otlier espionage agents, were not members of Com- 
munist cells. 

On one occasion there was a telephone call from a man whose voice I did 
not recognize. The caller asked for Julius. I told the caller that Julius was 
out on business and I told him when Julius could be expected back. When 
Julius returned I told him about the call and from the facts I related to him, 
he immediately recognized the caller. A little later the telephone rang again 
and Julius answered. After Julius hung up he told me that he had to go out to 
meet the caller who was waiting on the corner, the call having been placed from 
a nearby telephone booth. I started to go out with Julius, being curious and 
wishing to see what the caller looked like, knowing from the mysterious circum- 
stances surrounding the call and Rosenberg's reaction to it that the caller was 
one of Rosenberg's agents. Julius, however, did not want me to go, saying 
"I do not want you to see this man, so stay in the shop." Julius did not return 
to work that day. 

Q. When did the operation of the Rosenberg ring which had as its purpose 
the obtaining of radar secrets for Russia stop? — A. As far as I know these opera- 
tions never stopped and could very possibly be continuing to this very day. When 
I was with the ARMA Co. — 

which Colonel Lotz has named as a Signal Corps contractor, Mr. 
Chairman — 

during 1949 and 1950, working in their research and development department 
on various fire control gyroscopic and radar apparatus', Julius asked me to 
obtain information on the projects upon which I was working. I refused. 

The Chairman. Mr. Cohn, I think in connection with the ARMA 
Corp., the record should show that Mr. Greenglass gave the committee 
additional leads concerning present employees of ARMA. Those 
witnesses that have been before the committee, and those uncovered 
through the information which Mr. Greenglass gave indicate consider- 
able evidence of Communist activity on the part of present employees. 



4055€^ — 54 — ^pt. 1- 



22 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. CoHN. That is right, and the last question in here makes it 
clear there is additional information which Mr. Greenglass gave to 
the committee which we are in the process of tracking down, and 
calling in witnesses concerning it. And Mr. Greenglass has said 
that he will be available when that information has been developed, 
and we can go back there and complete that picture. 

Q. Do you know Vivian Glassman? — A. Yes, I do. 

Q. Under what circumstances did you meet Vivian Glassman? — A. I first 
met Vivian Glassman after the war, around 1946. I met Vivian at Julius' and 
Ethel's apartment where I was told that she worked for some kind of a board 
that dealt with backward children. I believe s'he was employed as a secretary. 
Vivian, Ethel, and Julius were exceedingly friendly. When, for example, Ethel 
had to go out Wednesday afternoons on her mysterious business, Vivian took 
care of the Rosenberg children. 

I also met Vivian down at our shop. Joel Barr had some radio equipment 
and some photographing equipment at our shop. Barr was also building an 
electronics apparatus of some kind in the shop. Vivian would come to the 
shop to meet Joel and they would eventually leave together. I later learned 
from Julius that Joel and Vivian were keeping company together. 

Q. Did you believe Vivian Glassman to be a member of the Roseberg spy 
ring? — A. After Julius Rosenberg told me about Joel Barr, I knowing about 
the relationship between Joel Barr and Vivian Glassman, came to the conclusion 
that Vivian Glassman was involved in some way. 

Mr. Chairman, the records, of course, indicate that Vivian Glass- 
man had been employed during the war at Fort Monmouth, and as 
soon as her health permits she will be a witness before this committee. 
She has been heard in executive session, as you will recall. 

The Chairman. In view of the fact that Vivian Glassman's attorney 
informs us that her health will not permit her being present before 
the committee tomorrow, she having been subpenaed for tomorrow, 
I think the record should show that she was before the committee in 
executive session and was asked whether or not she was a part of the 
Rosenberg spy ring, and she refused to answer on the ground that 
a truthful answer might tend to incriminate her, and she was asked 
about many other activities in connection with espionage at Fort 
Monmouth, and asked about her connections with people at Fort Mon- 
mouth as of today, and connection with some of those who were 
suspended. And in all of those cases she invoked the fifth amendment. 
Is that roughly correct, Mr. Colin ? 

Mr. CoHN. That is exactly correct, Mr. Chairman. 

Q. With reference to some of the other information which you have given to 
Mr. Carr, Mr. Cohn, Mr. Schine, and Mr. Buckley, of the subcommittee staff, 
will you be agreeable to answering questions in the near future? 

A. I am willing to answer any questions and give any information that I may 
have if in so doing I can help my country and its authorities in exposing what 
has been done by way of giving Russia our secrets. 

That concludes the deposition, Mr. Chairman. 

May we have this received in evidence and made a part of the record 
in theseproceedings ? 

The CThaieman. It will be received and made a part of the record. 

(The affidavit and deposition referred to were marked "Exliibit 
No. 1 (a) and (b).") 

The Chairman. I think the record should also show, Mr. Cohn, 
that you and Mr. Carr and Mr. Schine and Mr. Rogge spent 2 or 3 
hours with Mr. Greenglass, and that Mr. Buckley the other day spent 
an additional 6 hours with him, and that there is considerable infer- 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 23 

mation given by Mr. Greenglass which is outside of this affidavit; 
that you did not include the names of people in this affidavit whom 
we have had no opportunity to call ; and I think after they have all 
been called and all of the leads run down given by Mr. Greenglass, it 
may well be important to have Mr. Greenglass testify down here in 
executive session. 

We have a great deal of difficulty with working that out, and it will 
be necessary to have him confront certain witnesses to know whether 
he recognizes them. We cannot very well take them to the Federal 
penitentiary at Lewisburg. And there is some reluctance, and I can 
understand why, on the part of the Justice Department to have him 
produced here in New York. I think we should proceed to work out 
some arrangement whereby we can arrange the necessary confronta- 
tions between Greenglass and the various witnesses whom he has 
named. 

Mr. CoHN. We will take that up with the Justice Department. 

Mr. Chairman, ^t^ith reference to the Greenglass testimony concern- 
ing the Rosenberg ring and its operations, and with particular refer- 
ence to the year 1953, Mr, Carr has procured for the committee a file 
relating to the witness whom we are about to call, and I wonder if 
I could ask him one or two questions with reference to that file. 

Mr. Carr, have you obtained and has there been made available to 
the committee the file of a man named Joseph Levitsky, L-e-v-i-t-s-k-y ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes, there has. 

Mr. CoHN. Does that file reflect anything concerning Levitsky's 
employment ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes, it does. 

Mr. CoHN. Will you tell us what that shows, briefly ? 

Mr. Carr. The file reflects that after working for the Philadelphia 
Signal Corps as an inspector and associate engineer in 1940 through 
1943, he obtained employment at the Federal Telecommunications 
Laboratories, in Nutley, N. J. 

Mr. CoHN. That Federal Telecommunications, of course, as we 
know, to which Levitsky transferred in 1943 from the Signal Corps, 
has been identified by Colonel Lotz as a subcontractor for the Signal 
Corps, which is today doing Signal Corps work, and which since 1946 
has been handling classified contracts for the Signal Corps up to and 
including the classification of "Secret." 

Mr. Carr, does that file reflect how recently Joseph Levitsky has 
been working at the Federal Telecommunications Laboratories? 

Mr. Carr. The last day of February 1953. 

Mr. CoHN. He has actually been working there into the year 1953, 
is that right ? 

Mr. Carr. That is correct. 

Mr. CoHN. Does the file show whether, when he left there in Febru- 
ary of 1953, he was fired or he resigned ? 

Mr. Carr. No, he resigned. 

Mr. CoHN. He resigned in February of 1953 from this laboratory, 
is that right ? 

Mr. Carr. That is correct. 
^ Mr. CoHN. Now, Mr. Carr, does that file include Levitsky's applica- 
tion for transfer from the Signal Corps to the Federal Telecommunica- 
tions Laboratories? 



24 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Carr. Yes, it does, dated November 6, 1943. 

Mr. CoiiN. November G, 1943? 

Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. 

INIr. CoiiN. And does that file show the names of the people who 
Mr. Levitisky gave as references to obtain that position for him with 
the Federal Telecommunications Laboratories? 

Mr. Carr. Yes, it does. 

Mr. CoHN. Would you direct your attention to the last name, the last 
reference given by Mr. Levitsky to obtain that position, on that 
application ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. The name is Mr. Julius Rosenberg, 10 JNIonroe 
Street, New York City. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, the record of the Rosenberg trial, a copy 
of which we have, indicates that the Julius Rosenberg of 10 Monroe 
Street is the Julius Rosenberg who was convicted and executed for 
a conspiracy to commit espionage against the United States, in an 
indictment in which Mr. Greenglass, wdiose testimony was read here, 
was named as a codefendant. 

We believe this Mr. Levitsky is of particular importance in view of 
the fact Rosenberg was given as a reference foi" Levitsky in obtaining 
this position, and the fact that Levitsky was allowed to remain in this 
position until the year 1953, and that when he left, he left under his 
own power, having resigned. 

I would now ask, Mr. Chairman, if we may call Mr. Levitsky as the 
next witness. 

Mr. Chairman, before Mr. Levitsky is called, you correctly called to 
my attention the fact that we should place in the record at this point, 
before Mr. Levitsky is called — and IStr. Levitsky has been advised of 
this — that he has been named in sworn testimony before the committee 
as a Communist. That testimony is the testimony of a man named 
Carl Greenblum, G-r-e-e-n-b-1-u-m, and he has testified in executive 
session. On pages 1063 to 10G5, you will recall he first denied knowl- 
edge that Levitsky was a Communist and had been a Communist, and 
denied completely any knowledge of that; and that afterward he was 
emotionally upset and left the room, and came back in again and said 
he had been hiding his association with Levitsky, and then proceeded 
to testify in pertinent part as follows, page 1079 of the record : 

I want to start afresh, and I want to explain the circumstances of coming here 
and trying to liide an association with Levitslv.v, who I know to be a Communist. 
I Ijnow him to be a Communist because he told me he was a Communist. 

That is with reference to Joseph Levitsky. 

I wonder, with that in the record, if we may have Mr. Levitsky as a 
witness before the committee. 

The Chairman. I think JMr. Levitsky sliould liaA'e the information 
that the testimony in executive session shows Mr. Levitsky had about 
as close an association as anyone could possibly have with the Rosen- 
berg spy ring. 

Mr. CoiiN. There is detailed testimony on that in the record, of Mr. 
Levitsky's close personal association with Julius Rosenberg over a 
period of years. 

The Chairman. Mr. Levitsky, will you take the stand? 

(The witness Levitsky, accompanied by his counsel, Leonard B. 
Boudin, approached the witness stand.) 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 25 

Mr. BouDiN. I request that the television be turned off, and the 
motion-picture camera be turned off, and in view of the fact I advised 
the committee yesterday that I objected to the procedure to employ 
a wire recorder, I request that be turned off. 

The Chairman. The witness is entitled to have the television 
cameras turned away from him. 

Mr. BouDiN. And the motion pictures please, and the still cameras. 

The Chairman. The cameramen will take no pictures. Did you 
hear me, gentlemen? No more pictures will be taken of the witness. 
That includes all of the time that he is in the hearing room. 

The television cameramen are informed that the rule of the com- 
mittee is that where a witness does not want his picture taken by tele- 
vision or motion-picture cameras, the cameras will not be turned upon 
him. The cameras can be used in any other part of the room, however, 
but you w411 turn them on no part of the witness' body. 

Mr. BouDiN. I think the cameras can be turned on the chairman, 
and I have no objection to the chairman having pictures taken. 

The Chairman. How about counsel ? 

Mr. BouDiN. Counsel does not need the pictures. 

The Chairman. Does counsel object to his own picture being taken? 

Mr. BouDiN. Counsel does not need the publicity. 

The CHAiiiMAN. Does counsel object to his own picture being taken? 

Mr. BouDiN. Counsel does not need the publicity. 

The Chairman. Then counsel's picture will not be taken either. 

Mr. BouDiN. May I request the lights be turned off me. 

The Chairman. Do not turn the lights on the witness or upon 
counsel, if he is light shy. 

Will you stand and raise your right hand, Mr. Levitsky? In this 
matter now in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly swear to 
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God ? 

Mr. Levitskt. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH LEVITSKY 

Mr. BouDiN. I do not want to throw the room into complete dark- 
ness, more than before. It is a little better but it really isn't very 
good. Those lights in particular should be turned a little more on the 
chairman, and off me. 

Mr. CoHN. I do not know about the affirmative part of your sug- 
gestion, but the negative part we will be glad to comply with. 

Will the record indicate that the counsel for the witness is Mr. 
Leonard Boudin. 

Mr. BouDiN. May I interrupt you again. The lights are still on me. 

The Chairman. Are the lights blinding you ? 

Mr. BouDiN. No ; but they are in my eyes and I would like to have 
them turned off me. 

The Chairman. There is no light on you. 

Mr. Boudin. I can only handle one chairman, and may I request 
the lights be not turned on either me or Mr. Levitsky. 

The Chairman. I cannot see that they are in your eyes, but if you 
can swing them away a bit more, it will be good. 

Are you comfortable now, Mr. Boudin ? 

Mr. Boudin. I think perhaps if I got on the other side, that will be 
all right. 



26 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

The Chairman. You may do that. Do you feel better now ? 

Mr. BouDiN. No. I must again request that all of those lights be 
turned out, and that we simply have a normal courtroom light, and 
that your instructions with respect to pictures be followed. May 
1 call your attention to the fact that your instructions with respect 
to the taking of photographs have not been followed and are not being 
followed now. 

The Chairman. There will be no pictures taken. 

May I say in regard to television cameras that the committee has 
considered that problem very carefully, and we feel we do not have 
the right to exclude from the room any media of information, and 
we feel we cannot exclude television any more than we can exclude 
newsmen. However, the television must be handled in such a way 
that it will not embarrass the witness, and will not cause him any 
discomfort. Also, counsel is entitled not to have any bright lights 
shined upon him. I cannot see that the light is bright down there, 
but if you still object I will ask the newsmen to try and shift your 
lights over away from counsel. Can you turn those lights a little 
more? 

Mr. CoHN. May we get your full name, please, sir ? 

Mr. Levitskt. Joseph Levitsky. 

Mr. CoHN. Could you speak a little louder ? That is L-e-v-i-t-s-k-y ? 

Mr. Levitsky. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Where do you reside, sir? 

Mr. Levitsky. At 65 Rutgers Place, River Edge, N. J. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Levitsky, did you work at one time for the Signal 
Corps? 

Mr. Levitsky. Yes, I did. 

Mr. CoHN. And during what years were you with the Signal Corps 
itself? 

Mr. Levitsky. From 1940 to 1943. 

Mr. CoHN. And in 1943 did you transfer someplace, to someplace 
else? 

Mr. Levitsky. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. Where? 

Mr. Levitsky. The Federal Telecommunication Laboratories. 

Mr. CoHN. Where are they located ? 

Mr. Levitsky. Now they are located at Nutley, N. J. 

Mr. CoHN. Were you working at the Federal Telecommunication 
Laboratories in Nutley, N. J., as of February of 1953, this year? 

Mr. Levitsky. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. You were? 

Mr. Levitsky. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. IVlien you left there, did you resign ? 

Mr. Levitsky. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. You were not fired, you resigned? 

Mr. Levitsky. That is right. 

Mr. CoiiN. Mr. Levitsky, when you were with the Signal Corps 
itself, were you working on classihed information? Did you have 
access to classified information? 

Mr. Levitsky. I believe I did. 

Mr. CoHN. When you were with Federal Telecommunications Labo- 
ratory, did you have access to classified information ? 

Mr. Levitsky. Yes. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 27 

The Chairman. Mr. Levitsky, very serious charges have been made 
against you here in executive session, and charges of association with 
an espionage ring and charges of espionage, and charges of member- 
ship in a Communist conspiracy. The committee was very careful 
not to have those made public until you were here and had a chance 
to deny the very serious charges. You are here this morning and you 
will be given that opportunity. 

Let me ask you lirst, did Julius Rosenberg help you to get your job 
at the Signal Corps or at Telecommunications? 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. Senator, you have stated that serious charges have 
been made against me. 

The Chairman. Did Julius Rosenberg help you to get your job at 
Telecommunications or at the Signal Corps laboratory ? 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. Except for the fact that I happened to put his name 
down in the application, he had absolutely nothing to do with my get- 
ting that job as far as I know at Federal. 

The Chairman. Did you give him as a reference ? 

Mr. Levitsky. I am told, and I don't recollect that myself, but I am 
told that I did give him as a reference. 

The Chairman. Well, to refresh your recollection, I will hand you 
your application in your own handwriting and ask you whether or 
not you did give Julius Rosenberg as your reference to get this job. 

Mr. Levitsky. It appears to have my name, and I guess I did. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether you did or not? 

Mr. Levitsky. I did, yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You did? 

Mr. Levitsky. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you know Rosenberg when you gave his name 
as your reference? 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. You mean, was I acquainted with him ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Levitsky. Yes. 

The Chairman. You were? 

Mr. Levitsky. Yes. 

The Chairman. How well did you know Rosenberg ? 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. I just don't understand what that means — "How 
well do I know Rosenberg?" 

The Chairman. You don't understand that? 

Mr. Levitsky. Would you be more specific? It is a general ques- 
tion, and I don't want to have to answer that. 

The Chairman. Were you a member of the Communist Party with 
Julius Rosenberg ? Will that help you out ? 

Mr. Levitsky. I would like to state my reasons for declining to 
answer that question. 

The Chairman. You may do so. 

Mr. LE\r[TSKY. I decline to answer the question on the grounds that 
this subcommittee is not engaged in a bona fide legislative inquiry, 
but in the criminal investigation constitutionally within the exclusive 
jurisdiction of a grand jury. 



28 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Two, the committee having taken testimony on this subject in ex- 
ecutive session is not fulfilling legislative functions by repeating tbis 
process in public. 

The committee's jurisdiction is limited under the Senate rules and 
the Legislative Reorganization Act to matters of efficiency and econ- 
omy in Government, and subversive activities are under the jurisdic- 
tion of another Senate committee, if under any committee jurisdiction. 

Four, that from the committee's press statements after my previous 
testimony, regarding the alleged conflicts between mine and other 
testimony, and from the nature of this investigation, it is clear that 
although I am innocent of any crime, it is seeking to entrap me and 
ensnare me, and I therefore rely upon my constitutional privilege 
under the fifth amendment not to be a witness against myself. 

The Chairman. Did a member of the Communist Party write that 
statement for you? 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

]Mr. Levitsky. Are you serious in asking that question ? 

The Chairman. Read the question, Mr. Reporter, 

(Whereupon the question was read by the reporter, as above 
recorded. ) 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer that question for all of the rea- 
sons given in the statement above. 

The Chairman. Your grounds for refusal will be overruled, except 
if you refuse on the basis of that part of the fifth amendment which 
deals with self-incrimination. Are you invoking that part of the fifth 
amendment ? 

Mr. Levitsky. I am invoking my entire statement, including the 
fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. Are you invoking that part of the fifth amendment 
that deals with self-incrimination? That is the only part that you 
can invoke. 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. I am invoking all of my reasons including the fifth 
amendment. 

The Chairman. Do you feel that your answer to this question might 
tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. Levitsky. Have explained my reasons for answering as I did, 
and I am advised by counsel that I am not required to adopt your 
formulation. 

The Chairman. Do I understand you are refusing to tell me 
whether or not 

Mr. Levitsky. I am sorry. However, I didn't finish. To avoid 
further harassment, I will adopt your formulation and say "Yes." 

The Chairman. Did you ever sign a statement which read as fol- 
lows—this being part of the application for membership in the Com- 
munist Party : 

The undersigned declares his adherence to the program and statutes of the 
Communist International and the Communist Party of the U. S. A., and agrees 
to submit to the discipline of the party and to engage actively in its work. 

That is signed "Levitsky." Did you ever sign such a statement? 
(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

]\Ir. Levitsky. Could you please tell me what you are reading, and 
please tell me or show me the document that you are reading, if any ? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 29 

The Chairman. Do you know whether you ever signed such a state- 
ment ? 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. Could you before I give my answer show me such a 
statement, if there is any. 

The Chairman. Do you Avant to know whether you can run the 
risk of committing perjury before you answer? I am asking you 
whether you ever signed such a statement. 

Mr. Levitsky. If there is such a statement, I would like to see it. 

The Chairman. Did you ever sign such a statement? Let us put 
it this way : If you don't recall what the pledge was, did you ever sign 
a pledge generally pledging support to the Communist Party along 
the lines that I have read to you? 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer that question for all of the rea- 
sons previously given, including the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. Including the grounds of self-incrimination ? 

Mr. Levitsky. That is right. 

The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist Party, or 
rather were you a member of the Communist Party while you were 
handling classified material for the Government? 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer the question for the reasons pre- 
viously given. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Levitsky, were you a member of a Communist ring 
with Julius Kosenberg? 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer for the reasons given above, in- 
cluding the fifth amendment. 

Mr. CoiiN. Mr. Levitsky, were you engaged in a conspiracy to com- 
mit espionage? 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. I have previously denied in executive session that I 
have ever committed any acts of espionage, and I see no reason why 
this question is asked at this public hearing. 

Mr. CoHN. You are being asked now whether you were engaged in 
a conspiracy to commit espionage, and after you answer that question 
we will go into great detail about that. 

The Chairman. Now, if you did not engage in such a conspiracy 
to commit espionage, here is your chance to deny it under oath. 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. Can you please give me an idea of what you regard 
as conspiracy to commit espionage? 

Mr. CoHN. I wouldn't know, Mr. Levitsky. I think that you can 
answer that question without any difficulty for us. 

Have you engaged in a conspiracy to commit espionage? I will 
withdraw the question, and I will take what you say on good faith, 
and I will withdraw that question and ask you another question first : 
Did you ever ask any other person to commit espionage ? 

Mr. Levitsky. If you have anything particularly in mind, could 
you please specify it? 

Mr. CoHN. We don't have to tell you what we have in mind, and 
what evidence we have. We are asking you, who are the witness and 
the person involved, whether or not you asked anybody to commit 
espionage. 

40568 — 54^-J)t. 1— — 5 



30 ARRIY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer for the reasons given above, in- 
cluding the fifth amendment. 

The Chair]vian. Did you know a Mr. Carl Greenblum ? 

Mr. Levitsky. Yes, I did. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you take Mr. Greenblum to a meeting in New York 
where you introduced him to three members of an espionage ring, of 
the Rosenberg espionage ring? 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer on the grounds given above, 
including the fifth amendment. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you take anybody from New Jersey to New York 
to a restaurant on 38th Street, and introduce them to William Perl, 
a member of the Rosenberg ring ? 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer for the reasons given above in 
my statement, including the fifth amendment. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you following Julius Rosenberg's arrest on espio- 
nage charges, when asked whether or not you had been involved in 
espionage with Rosenberg, did yon state as follows: "Yes, and but 
for the grace of God, there go I." 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. Is that question asked seriously ? 

Mr. CoHN. That question is asked very seriously. 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. Can you put into evidence then where, when, and to 
whom I made that statement ? 

Mr. CoHN". Mr. Levitsky, if you did not make that statement, tell 
us "No, I did not make that statement," and if you didn't ask anybody 
to commit espionage, tell us so ; and if you did not take anyone to this 
meeting on 38th Street, say "No" to each question, and that will end 
that. 

Mr. Levitsky. Do you refuse to specify where, when, and to whom 
I made that statement ? 

The Chairman. Counsel is instructed not to give the witness any 
further information. We have seen you Communists come before 
this committee so often trying to find out what information we have 
so that you will know whether you can safely commit perjury or not, 
and you are not being given any such protection before this committee. 

You have been asked a very simple question, of whether you made 
a statement of this nature. If you made a statement of this nature, 
you know you made it. 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer on the basis of my statement 
made previously, including the fifth amendment. 

Mr. CoTiN. Did you in July of 1953 make a trip to New Jersey, and 
visit three people and ask them to engage in espionage? 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer for the reasons given above. 

Mr. CoiiN. Did you ask persons who were employed at Fort Mon- 
mouth, in the Signal Corps, to engage in espionage? 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline for the same reason. 

The Chairman. Do you feel that your answer might tend to in- 
criminate you? 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. I am advised by counsel that I need not adopt your 
formulation of this matter. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 31 

The Chairman. I am asking you a simple question : Do you feel 
that your answer might tend to incriminate you? If you do, you are 
entitled to the fifth amendment privilege, and if not you are not 
entitled to the fifth amendment privilege. 

So that the witness will further understand the position of the 
Chair, you have given various reasons for refusing to answer. All of 
them are invalid. The only valid ground for refusal to answer this 
question is if you feel the answer might tend to incriminate you. 

And so I will ask you the simple question : Do you feel the answer 
might tend to incriminate you, and if not you will be ordered to 
answer the question. 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. In the context of this investigation, and the state- 
ments made to the press by Mr. Cohn earlier, the answer is "Yes, 
it might tend to incriminate me." 

The Chairman. Then j^ou are entitled to the fifth amendment 
privilege. 

Mr. CoHN. In February of 1953, when you were working at the 
Federal Telecommunications Laboratory, were you a Conmiunist? 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer for the reasons given above. 

Mr. CoiiN. Since you resigned from the Federal Telecoimnunica- 
tions Laboratory, have you asked any person working there to commit 
espionage ? 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer for the reasons given above. 

Mr. CoHN. Since you left the Federal Telecommunications Labora- 
tory, have you asked any persons working at Fort Monmouth to com- 
mit espionage? 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer for the same reason. 

Mr. CoHN. Specifically, on March 9, and March 11, of 1953, were 
you in communication with a man named Harry Hyman ? 

Mr. BouDiN. Excuse me a moment. 

The Chairman. We will give you all of the time you want. 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. BouDiN. Could we have the question repeated ? 

(Whereupon the pending question was then read by the reporter, 
as above recorded.) 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer for the reasons given above. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you and Harry Hyman in March of 1953, discuss 
recruiting people into a Communist espionage ring ? 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. Are you serious about that question ? 

Mr. CoiiN. We are serious about every question that we have asked 
you here, starting from the application which you made giving Julius 
Rosenberg as a reference, through every other question that has been 
asked you at this hearing. 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer that question. 

The Chairman. On the grounds of self-incrimination ? 

Mr. Levitsky. On the grounds given above in my statement. 

The Chairman. On the grounds of self-incrimination ? 

Mr. Levitskt. Yes, sir. 



32 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. CoHN. Do you have the telephone number Hubbard 7-1932 ? 

Mr, Levitsky. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Was that your telephone number in March of 1953 ? 

Mr. Levitsky. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Were jou present at a meeting attended by Communist 
miderirround leadei-s at wliich Mr. Hyman was also present in March 
of 1953? 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

The Chairman. Mr. Boudin, you are ordered to produce Mr. Hy- 
man at 10: 30 tomorrow morning, and Mr. Hyman, as I understand, 
is your client and he is under subpena. 

Mr. BouDiN. I object to the fact that instructions to produce an- 
other client of mine is given to me in a public hearing when I am 
representing this client. It seems to me that the committee should 
be aware of the responsibilities of attorneys and can understand that 
this attempt to relate one client to another through the attorney is im- 
proper. I want to strongly state my objections to this sort of pro- 
cedure. It has occurred before before this committee. If a request 
is made that a witness be produced, one I have represented in other 
sessions, that request can be made to me after a hearing and can 
be made to me by telephone, and Mr. Cohn has always been able to 
get clients of mine when he wanted them, if I represented them. 

I am sorry, but I will not accept an instruction of this kind made 
at a public hearing in this context, and I consider it highly improper. 

The Chairman. You are ordered to have Mr. Hyman here at 10 : 30 
tomorrow morning. 

Mr. BoTJDiN. I am sorry. 

The Chairman. You are ordered to produce Mr. Hyman tomorrow 
morning at 10 : 30, and you are reminded that the last time Mr. Hyman 
was present, as he left the stand, the chairman told him he was still 
under subpena, and we asked him how it would be easiest for him and 
for you to be ordered to come back, and at that time you agreed that 
instead of our serving another subpena upon Mr. Hyman, if we would 
notify you and give you 24 hours' notice, or thereabouts, that you 
would produce him. Now you are ordered to produce him at 10 : 30 
tomorrow morning. 

Mr. BouDiN. Will the record show that your statement is incorrect, 
and if you will look at the transcript of Hyman here, you will see 
you are in error. 

The Chairman. Are you Mr. Hyman's counsel? 
Mr. BouDiN. I was his counsel in the executive session, and if a call 
were made to me which will not be an attempt to embarrass this wit- 
ness, such as is being done now, of course I will produce Mr. Hyman 
or any other client. But I object to the procedure followed at the 
present time. 

The Chairman. If you don't produce Mr. Hyman, I will ask the 
committee to hold you in contempt. 

Mr. Boudin. You can't hold an attorney in contempt in a proceed- 
ing like this and you know that. 
The Chairman. Shall we proceed? 
Mr. BouDiN. Very well. 



AEMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 33 

The Chaieman. Is Mr. Hyman known to you to be a member of 
the Communist underground? 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer for the reasons given above. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether Hyman is an espionage agent 
as of today ? 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer. 

The Chairman. On the grounds of self-incrimination? 

Mr. Levitsky. On the reasons given above. 

The Chairman. When you say "the reasons given above," you mean 
one of the reasons is the ground of self-incrimination ? 

Mr. Levitsky. Yes; and I am asserting all of the other reasons I 
gave. 

The Chairman. When did you last see Hyman? 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. The fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. Have you discussed espionage with Hyman within 
the last 30 days? 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer on all of the grounds previously 
given. 

The Chairsian. Have you been in telephone contact with Mr. Hy- 
man on at least three different occasions since the first of this year? 

(The witness consulted his counsel.) 

Mr. Levitsky. I decline to answer for the reason given previously. 

The Chairman. You will be ordered to return here tomorrow morn- 
ing at 10 : 30 and Mr. Hyman will also be present. 

We will now adjourn until 10 : 30 tomorrow morning. 

(Whereupon, at 12 noon, the hearing was adjourned, to reconvene 
again the following morning, Wednesday, November 25, 1953, at 
10:30 a.m.) 



AEMY SIGNAL CORPS-SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 



WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 25, 1953 

United States Senate, 
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the 

Committee on Government Operations, 

New York City^ N. T. 

The subcommittee met at 10: 55 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room 
110, Federal Building, Foley Square, New York City, N. Y., Senator 
Joseph K. McCarthy (chairman) presiding;. 

Present : Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin. 

Present also : Harold Rainville, administrative assistant to Senator 
Dirksen. 

Present also : Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel ; Francis P. Carr, execu- 
tive director ; Thomas W. LaVenia, assistant counsel ; and Daniel G. 
Buckley, assistant counsel. 

The Chairman. The committee will be in order. 

Is Marcel Ullmann in the room ? 

(No response.) 

The Chairman. Mr> Harry Hyman? Will you step forward, Mr. 
Hyman ? 

(The Witness Hyman, accompanied by his counsel, Leonard B. 
Boudin, approached the witness stand.) 

The Chairman. Mr. Hyman, if you have any objection to the 
pictures 

Mr. Boudin. Very definitely objections to the picture being taken 
now, as well, sir. 

The Chairman. If the witness objects to pictures being taken, no 
pictures will be taken — and that means no pictures will be taken. 

Mr. Boudin. Could we have the lights out, please ? 

The Chairman. Will you turn the lights off the witness? 
Will you stand and raise your right hand. In this matter now in 
hearing before the committee, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Hyman. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF HARRY A. HYMAN 

The Chairman. I may say I am very happy to have with us today 
Mr. Rainville, Senator Dirksen's administrative assistant, and Mr. 
Rainville \^\\\ feel free to take the same part in the proceedings that 
Senator Dirksen would take if he were here. 

All right, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr, Cohn. May we get your full name, please, Mr. Hyman? 

Mr. Hyman. I would like to first make a statement objecting to the 
jurisdiction of the committee. 

35 



36 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. CoHN. Will you first give us, for the record, your full name, 
so we will know who is making the statement. 

Mr. Htman. Harry A. Hyman. 

Mr. CoHN. Could you give us your address, and then make your 
statement ? 

Mr. Hyivian. 719 East Ninth Street. 

Mr. CoHN. New York? 

Mr. Hyman. New York. 

The Chairman. You may make your statement. 

Mr. Hyman. In objecting to the jurisdiction of this committee, 
I decline to answer any questions on the subject of crime. That is 
a grand jury matter, outside the committee's jurisdiction. No charges 
have ever been made against me in accordance with the constitutional 
procedure, since I have not committed any crime, and this committee 
cannot constitutionally make and investigate criminal charges. 

I further decline to answer any questions because, having heard my 
testimony in executive session, the present duplicating hearing is ob- 
viously for a political and not a legislative purpose. 

I further contest the jurisdiction of the committee, which is limited 
under the standing rules of the Senate, rule 25, to the economy and 
efficiency of Government operations. 

Finally, I contest the jurisdiction of the committee, and decline to 
answer its questions on the ground that no person is required, under 
the Constitution, to be a witness against himself, amendment V ; and 
is entitled, if such evidence exists, to be confronted with it before 
response to charges, amendment No. VI. 

The Chairman. May I say, Mr. Hyman, that you will be allowed 
to refuse to answer questions on one ground only, and that is if you 
feel that a truthful answer would tend to incriminate you. 

We have had testimony from a number of witnesses under oath that 
you, as of today, are an undercover spy for the Communists. That is 
the reason you are here this morning. You will be given a chance to 
refute that and you will be given a chance to tell us whether it is true 
or false. 

You see, if you were not called today, and the other witnesses were 
called who would name you as a spy and traitor to your country, then 
you would be screaming to high heaven that you had no chance to 
answer. You are here in order to give you an opportunity, under oath, 
to tell us whether or not the charges made against you are true or false. 

Mr. CoiiN. Mi\ Hyman, at the present time do you have two 
businesses ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. In view of all of the statements made by the chair- 
man, and for the reasons that I have previously stated, I decline to 
answer the question. 

Mr. CoHN. Let me ask you this, sir: Is it a fact that you are in 
the insurance business, and at the same time a paid functionary of 
the Communist Party of the United States? 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. In view of the chairman's statements, and the reasons 
as I stated before, I decline to answer the question. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 37 

The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer. You are not en- 
titled to refuse unless you invoke that section of the fifth amendment 
against self-incrimination. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Htman. I believe the Chair will remember my statement. I 
included that in my statement. 

The Chairman. You mean you are refusing on the grounds that 
your answer might tend to incriminate you ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. The formulation was already in my prepared state- 
ment, and I decline to answer under the grounds so stated. 

The Chairman. Do you feel that your answer might tend to incrimi- 
nate you ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel. ) 

Mr. Hyman. It is my understanding that I don't have to adopt that 
formulation, and no other committee uses it except this one ; that the 
formulation that I have used in my own prepared statement is 
adequate. 

The Chairman. Are you refusing to tell the Chair whether or not 
you feel the answer to counsel's question would tend to incriminate 
you? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman, At your insistence, I will adopt your formulation, 
although under protest. 

The Chairman. Do you feel that your answer might tend to incrimi- 
nate you ? 

Mr. Hyman. The answer is "Yes," under protest. 

The Chairman. Either you feel the answer would tend to incrimi- 
nate you, or not. 

Mr. Hyman. As I stated before, I have already made my formula- 
tion, and you choose another one, and I feel my formulation is ade- 
quate; and if you insist on yours, the answer is "Yes." 

The Chairman. I want to know whether or not you honestly feel that 
your answer might tend to incriminate you. Is the answer "Yes" ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

The Chairman. It is the only ground upon which you can refuse 
to answer here. 

Mr. Hyman. In view of the statements made by you at the outset 
of the hearing, the answer is obviously "Yes". 

Mr. COhn. Mr. Hyman, have you until late in 1951 been working 
on Signal Corps work at the Federal Telecommunications Laboratory 
in Nutley, N". J. ? 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. CoHN. Isn't it a fact that public records indicate that you 
until 10-31-51, were working on Signal Corps work at the Federal 
Telecommunications Laboratory at Nutley, N. J. ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer under the same grounds. 

The Chairman. May I say, Mr. Counsel, normally he would not be 
entitled to decline as to employment, but in view of the extensive 



38 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

evidence of his having engaged in espionage at that time, I believe 
he would be entitled to the fifth amendment. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, I would like at this time to note for the 
record that the file which has been made available to this committee by 
the Defense Department and the Federal Telecommunications Lab- 
oratory sliows that Mr. Hyman was employed and was working on 
Signal Corps work there, and that his employment was from 1943 
until 10-31-51. 

Mr. Hyman. Will you also present evidence as to my espionage 
activities, as you put it? 

The Chairman. You have a chance to tell us whether you engaged 
in espionage. 

Mr. Hyman. You made the charges. 

The Chairman. Were you engaged in espionage ? 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

The Chairman. On the greunds a truthful answer might tend to 
incriminate you ? 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds as on the other 
questions. 

The Chairman. On the grounds of self-incrimination? 

Mr. Hyman. That is right. 

The Chairman. You are entitled to the fifth amendment. 

I think it would be a great thing if some of you individuals were over 
in Kussia, and if you were taking a fifth amendment as to spying 
against Communist Russia. You wouldn't last very long. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Hyman, when you left the Federal Telecommunica- 
tions Laboratory, you left there voluntarily, did you not, by 
resignation ? 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. CoHN. Since you left there, and up through and including the 
present moment, have you been in communication with people still 
working at the Federal Telecommunications Laboratory, and work- 
ing at the Evans Signal Laboratory in Fort Monmouth ? 

The Chairman. Do not turn the lights on the witness. 

(Tlie witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer the question, because it deals with 
the subject of crime, and that is a grand jury matter outside the com- 
mittee's jurisdiction. No charges' have been made against me in ac- 
cordance with constitutional procedure, since I have not committed 
any crime, and this committee cannot constitutionally make and in- 
vestigate criminal charges. 

I further decline to answer any questions because, having heard my 
testimony in executive session, the present duplicating hearing is ob- 
viously for a political and not a legislative purpose. 

T further contest the jurisdiction of this committee, which is limited 
under the standing rules of the Senate, rule 25, to the economy and 
efficiency of Government operations. 

Finally, I contest the jurisdiction o'f the committee and decline to 
answer its questions on the ground that no person is required, under 
the Constitution, to be a witness against himself, amendment V; and 
is entitled, if such evidence exists, to be confronted with it before 
response to charges, amendment VI. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 39 

The Chairman". Now, you say that you think this is a function of 
the grand jury. We can very easily have you transferred over to a 
grand jury, and do you want to tell the committee today that you will 
answer these questions before a grand jury? In other words, will you 
tell a grand jury about your activities for the Communist Party, 
whether or not you have been spying, and whether or not you are an 
espionage agent ? 

Mr. Hyman. I wasn't aware this committee had any connection 
with a grand jury. 

The Chairman. We can refer a case to the grand jury, and you have 
said that you think this is a function of the grand jury. I now ask you 
the simple question: If we ask the grand jury to call you tomorrow, 
will you agree to answer the questions as to your espionage activities ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Hyman, in the month of October 1953, did you ask 
persons working at Federal Telecommunications Laboratory and at 
Fort Monmouth to give to you classified information from the Army 
Signal Corps ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. I decline for the reasons already stated. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you have a meeting at your home to plan out 
espionage activities, attended by Howard "Stretch" Johnson, one of 
the top leaders of the Communist Party of New York, Jack Banks 

Mr. BouDiN. Will you spell those names ? 

Mr. CoHN. Howard Johnson^ known as "Stretch" Johnson, 
J-o-h-n-s-o-n ; Jack Banks, B-a-n-k-s ; and Sandy Smith of the Phila- 
delphia Communist Party. Did those three persons attend a meeting 
in your home in which the obtaining of classified information from 
the Army Signal Corps was discussed ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. CoHN. Were you in March of 1953 discussing with Joseph 
Levitsky the obtaining of classified information from the Army Signal 
Corps ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. CoHN. Are you engaged in espionage today ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer any questions on the subject of 
crirne. That is a grand jury matter, outside the committee's jiu^is- 
diction. 

Mr. Corn. Will you tell the grand jury 

Mr. Hyman. May I continue my statement ? 

Mr. CoHN. I would like to know at that point, now, just to take 
that very first point: If we refer this to a Federal grand jury and 
they agree to hear you this morning or tomorrow, willyou answer the 
identical questions concerning Communist and espionage activities 
before the grand jury? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. My conduct before the grand jury will be determined 
at that time, and this committee hasn't got any authority with reference 
to that. 



40 ARIMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

The Chairman. Did a soldier from the Aberdeen Proving Grounds 
make a collect call to you on November 18, 1952, in regard to the work 
he was doing at Aberdeen ? 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

The Chairman. Mr. Cohn, will you arrange to have the soldier 
who made the call subpenaed ? 

Mr. CoiiN. That has been done. We have asked the Army to pro- 
duce him in executive session. 

The Chairman. Do you think this is funny ? 

Mr. Hyman. No. 1 think it is — it is really an outrageous affair. 

The Chairman. I know it is outrageous, to call a Communist spy 
before this committee and ask him questions. It is a great invasion 
of your rights. 

Did you make a total of approximately 76 calls to the Federal Tele- 
communications Laboratory in the last year, specifically between 
January 24, 1952, and the present date? 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

The Chx\irman. Were you discussing espionage in those phone 
calls? 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer any questions on the subject of 
crime. That is a grand jury matter, outside the committee's juris- 
diction. 

The Chairman. Do you feel if you told the truth about this it would 
incriminate you ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the grounds that my answer 
might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. How old are you ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr, Hyman. Thirty-one. 

The Chairman. How tall are you ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

The Chairman. Strike the last question. 

Did you make a total of 242 calls between October of 1951 and 
September of 1953 to the Federal Telephone & Radio Corp., at 
Clifton, N. J.? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

The Chairman. Did you make calls to the United States Govern- 
ment Navy Air Rocket Testing Station at Lake Denmark, at Dover, 
N. J.? 

Mr, BouDiN, Would the first name be spelled, please? 

The Chairman, It is the Navy Air Rocket Testing Station at Lake 
Denmark, Dover, N, J. Did you make calls to that place? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer for the same grounds. 

The Chairman, Specifically, did you make a call there on January 
2, 1953? 

Mr. Hyman, I decline to answer for the same grounds. 

The Chairman. The grounds of self-incrimination? 

Mr. Hyman. That's right. 

The Chairman. Did you make approximately eight calls to the 
United States Government Department of the Air Force at Newark, 
N. J,, between August 1953 and October of 1953 ? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 41 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer for the same gi-ounds. 

The Chairjvian. Who is your espionage contact at that place? 

Mr. Htman. I decline to answer any questions on the subject of 
crime. That is a grand jury matter outside the committee's jurisdic- 
tion. No charges have ever been made against me in accordance with 
the constitutional procedure, since I have not committed any crime, 
and this committee cannot constitutionally make and investigate crimi- 
nal charges. 

The Chairman. Do you advocate the overthrow of our Constitution 
by force and violence ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. Under what rule of the Senate are you making that 
inquiry, please? 

The Chairman. You are relying upon the Constitution today, and 
I asked you the simple question : Do you advocate the destruction of 
that Constitution? 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer for the grounds previously stated. 

The Chairman. The grounds of self-incrimination? 

Mr. Hyman. That is correct. 

The Chairman. Do you feel that if you were to tell us who your 
espionage contact is at the Air Force Base in Newark, N. J., that it 
would tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. BouDiN. Could we have the question repeated ? 

^The question was read by the reporter.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer for the reasons already stated. 

The Chairman. You feel that the answer would tend to incriminate- 
you? 

Mr. Hyman. That is right. 

The Chairman. Did you make approximately 40 calls between Jan- 
uary 23, 1953, and October 13, 1953, to the Department of the Air Force 
Transportation Control Depot, at Newark, N. J. ? 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer for the grounds already stated. 

The Chairman. Did you make a call on January 26, 1953, to th& 
Office of the New York District Engineer, Department of the Army ? 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer for the grounds previously stated. 

The Chairman. Are you an undercover espionage agent for the 
Communists as of today ? 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer for the reasons already given. 

The Chairman. On the grounds of self-incrimination? 

Mr. Hyman. That is correct. 

The Chairman. Did you make a number of calls between March 16,. 
1953, and the present date, to the Electronic Research Associates, Inc.» 
at North Caldwell, N. J. ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr, BouDiN. What is the name of that company ? 

The Chairman. Do you recognize the name of the company, Mr. 
Hyman ? 

Mr. Hyiman. I decline to answer for the grounds already stated. 

The Chairman. Who is your espionage contact in that company? 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer for the reasons already stated. 

The Chairman. On the grounds of self-incrimination ? 

Mr. Hyman. That is correct, and the other grounds in my prepared 
statement. 



42 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

The Chairman. We will have the record show that this witness 
made a sizable number of calls between March 16, 1953, and the present 
date, to the Electronics Research Associates, Inc., North Caldwell, 
N. J. ; and that he called the New York District Engineers Office, the 
I)epartment of the Army, January 26, 1953 ; and that he made 40 calls 
between January 23, 1953, and October 13, 1953, to the Department 
of the Air Force, Transportation Control Depot, Newark, N. J.; and 
that he made 8 calls to the Department of the Air Force, Newark, 
N. J., between August 10, 1953, and October 6, 1953 ; and that he made 
calls to the United States Government Navy Air Rocket Test Station 
at Lake Denmark, Dover, N. J. ; that he made a total of 76 calls to the 
Federal Telecommunications Laboratories between January 24, 1952, 
and October 21, 1953. 

We have here today what would appear to be one of the most active 
Communist espionage agents that we have run down, to date, and he 
has been given a chance to tell whether it is true that he is a Com- 
munist spy or not, and he takes advantage of the Constitution which 
he apparently is working to destroy. 

Unfortunately, under the fifth amendment, he has the right to pro- 
tect a conspiracy, and the fifth amendment was not intended for that. 
It was intended to protect only individuals. 

Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Hyman, have you made a number of trips to Fort 
Monmouth within the last 2 months ? 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer for the grounds previously given. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you on October 23 of this year, make a trip to Fort 
Monmouth and meet a person outside of the gates of the Evans Signal 
Laboratory at Forth Monmouth? 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer for the reasons previously given. 

The Chairman. Do you feel if you were to tell us the truth as to 
whether or not on October 23 of this year, you journeyed to Fort 
Monmouth and met a man outside the gates of the Evans Laboratory, 
that that answer might tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Hyman. I have already stated my reasons fully, and they in- 
cluded the grounds of self-incrimination. 

The Chairman. Answer the question. 

Mr. Hyman. Wliat is the question, please ? 

The Chairman. Read the question. 

(The question was read by the reporter.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. In view of the unsupported charges made by the chair- 
man, the answer to the question is "Yes." 

The Chairman. You say "unsupported charges." Are you not an 
espionage agent on the payroll of the Communist Party as of this 
moment ? 

Mr. Hyman. If you have any evidence, you can produce it. 

The Chairman. Answer the question. 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer for the same grounds. 

The Chairman. The best evidence is your standing up here and 
saying that "If I tell you the truth, I will go to jail." You cannot get 
better evidence. 

Mr. Hyman. Not according to the Constitution, that isn't so. 

The Chairman. The question is: As of this moment, are you an 
espionage agent on the payroll of the Communist Party ? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 43 

Mr. Htman. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 

The Chairman. Let me ask you this question: Julius Rosenberg 
was convicted of espionage, and he has been executed. From your 
answers here, apparently you were engaged and still are engaged in 
the same type of espionage. Do you feel that you should be walking 
the streets of this country free, or that you should have the same fate 
as the Rosenbergs ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. That is an outrageous question, and it is more rhetoric 
than a question. 

The Chairman. Answer it. It is not so outrageous when you know 
we have 140,000 casualties, many of them directly as a result of the 
work of traitors. 

Mr. Hyman. Repeat the question, please. 

The Chairman. Will the reporter read the question ? 

(The question was read by the reporter.) 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

The Chairman. Mr. Rainville, do you have any questions? 

Mr. Rainville. Mr. Hyman, you have several times here said today 
you had given testimony in executive session, and refused to repeat 
that testimony here because this is for political purposes. Under those 
circumstances, would you be willing to have your executive testimony 
read into this record? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

The Chairman. I may say, Mr. Rainville, the performance he 
gave in executive session was almost identical to what he gave today, 
and the evidence is of no value. In executive session, we went through 
the same procedure. 

You may step down. Wait just a minute. 

Mr. Hyman, we will need you further. You may go into the side 
room if you care to, but we will need you further. 

We will call Professor Grundfest. 

Professor, will you raise your right hand and be sworn? In the 
matter now in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly swear 
to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. Grundfest. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF HARRY GRUNDFEST 

Mr. CoHN. Professor Grundfest is represented by counsel, Mr. 
Osborn Frankle, of the New York Bar. 

The Chairman. May I remind the reporters that the committee 
rule is that you will not take any flash pictures while the witness is 
testifying; and, if he requests, of course, we will take no pictures 
at all. 

Mr. Frankle. As long as they are not being taken during the 
testimony. 

Mr. Cohn. May we have your full name ? 

Mr. Grundfest. Harry Grundfest. 

Mr. CoHN. G-r-u-n-d-f-e-s-t? 

Mr. Grundfest. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. Where do you reside ? 



44 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Grundfest. 4 East Ninth Street, New York. 

Mr. CoHN. Where are you employed at the present time ? 

Mr. Grundfest. Columbia University. 

Mr. CoHN. Are you an associate professor? 

Mr. Grundfest. That is right ; of neurology. 

Mr. CoHN. Associate professor of neurology ? 

Mr. Grundfest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. For how long a period of time have you held that post? 

Mr. Grundfest. I have been at Columbia University for the last 
8 years, I believe ; since 1945. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, prior to your work at Columbia University, were 
you working for the Army Signal Corps ? 

Mr. Grundfest. Yes; for a period of about 18 months or so. 

The Chairman. Will you try to speak a little louder? 

Mr. CoHN. For a period of 18 months you were working for the 
Army Signal Corps? 

Mr. Grundfest. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. Where were you stationed? 

Mr. Grundfest. At the Squier Laboratory, where we had a biologi- 
cal research unit called the climatic research unit. 

Mr. CoHN. Tliat was at the Squier, S-q-u-i-e-r, Laboratory at Fort 
Monmouth, N. J. ? 

Mr. Grundfest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Cohn. For the Signal Corps ? 

Mr. Grundfest. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. What was your capacity, what was your function with 
that climatic research unit? 

Mr. Grundfest. I was senior physiologist working on problems of 
human physiology. 

Mr. CoHN. You were a senior physiologist; is that correct? 

Mr. Grundfest. I think so. 

Mr. CoHN. Dr. Grundfest, did you at that time have access to classi- 
fied material in connection with your work ? 

Mr. Grundfest. I presume I had access to all sorts of restricted 
material, which is the lowest classification of the Army, and I do not 
recall having any other kind of classified material. 

Mr. CoHN. The classified material which you recall working with 
was classified "restricted"; is that right? 

Mr. Grundfest. That is right. 

Mr, CoHN. At that time, when you were with the Army Signal 
Corps at Fort Monmouth, Professor Grundfest, were you a member 
of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Grundfest. I decline to answer, sir, on the grounds that this 
committee has no functions in asking me about it. and that it is against 
my constitutional rights under the first amendment and under the 
fifth amendment. . , . , 

The Chairman. Do you feel that you have any constitutional right 
to commit espionage ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

The Chairman. Do you feel that is a constitutional right? 

Mr. Grundfest. I have committed no espionage, sir, and that is all 
I can answer to this question. 

The Chairman. Have you discussed any of your work with mem- 
bers of the Communist Party? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 45 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grundfest. I must decline to answer, sir. 

The Chairman. Let us rephrase the question. Did you discuss 
any classified Government work with members of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Grundfest. As far as I recall, I discussed it with no one who 
was not authorized to discuss it. 

The Chairman. The question is, Did you discuss it with members 
of the Communist Party? Some of your fellow Communists may 
have been authorized to do the same work you were doing. 

Mr. Grundfest. I decline to answer, sir, under the claim of the 
privilege of the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. I think we will order the witness to answer that. 

You will be ordered to answer that. 

Mr. Grundfest. I decline to answer, sir. 

The Chairman. Will you have the record show that the witness 
volunteered the information that he had not ever engaged in espion- 
age, and therefore he has removed the fifth amendment privilege inso- 
far as the question concerning giving information about Government 
secrets to members of the Communist Party is concerned; and we will 
have the record show he was ordered to answer, and persists in his 
refusal. 

I may say, for your benefit, and you can govern yourself accord- 
ingly, your case in due coure will be submitted to the grand jury 
for contempt proceedings. 

Mr. CoHN. Dr. Grundfest, do you know Prof. Raymond Boyer of 
Canada ? 

Mr. Grundfest. Yes, I knew him for a short while. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you know that Professor Boyer was a Communist 
spy? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grundfest. Not at the time I knew him, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. At the time you knew Professor Boyer, did you discuss 
your work with him ? 

Mr. Grundfest. No, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. You never discussed your work with Professor Boyer? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grundfest. No, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. You never did? 

Mr. Grundfest. I don't believe so. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you know a Dr. Allan May? 

Mr. Grundfest. I have no recollection of knowing him. 

Mr. CoHN. Have you ever corresponded with him ? 

Mr. Grundfest. No, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Have you ever had any connection with him ? 

Mr. Grundfest. 1 do not recollect that, either. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you know Prof. Wendell Furry of Harvard Uni- 
versity ? 

Mr. Grundfest. I know him slightly, yes. 

Mr. CoHN. You say you know him slightly ? 

Mr. Grundfest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Have you ever discussed your work with Dr. Furry ? 

Mr. Grundfest. No. sir. I don't believe I knew him during the 
war. 



46 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. CoHN. Do you know Prof. Kirtley Mather of Harvard Uni- 
versity ? 

Mr. Grundfest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you ever discuss your work with Professor Mather? 

Mr. Grundfest. As far as I can recall, I did not. 

Mr. CoHN. How well did you know Professor Mather? 

Mr. Grundfest. I know Professor Mather as a very eminent scien- 
tist, and as one of the leaders of scientific thought in this country. 

Mr. CoHN. Were you a member of the Communist Party with Pro- 
fessor Mather ? 

Mr. Grundfest. I decline to answer, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Is Professor Mather one of the people who placed you 
in the Army Signal Corps ? 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grundfest. The only connection, as far as I know, was that 
I gave Professor Mather as a reference at Fort Monmouth. 

Mr. CoBN. You gave Professor Mather as a reference at Fort 
Monmouth ? 

Mr. Grundfest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. ConN. At the time you gave Professor Mather as a reference, 
were you and Professor Mather members of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Grundfest. I decline to answer, sir. 

The Chairman. On the ground your answer might incriminate you ? 

Mr. Grundfest. On the grounds, sir, that you have no business 
asking this kind of question, and that this falls under the first and 
fifth amendments, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you feel that your answer to that question might 
tend to incriminate you ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grundfest. Yes. 

The Chairman. The answer is "Yes"? 

Mr. Grundfest. Yes. 

The Chairman. You are telling me the truth when you say "Yes," 
you think it might tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Grundfest. Well, sir, I promised to tell the truth at this time. 

The Chairman. Then you truthfully feel that an answer to counsel's 
question might tend to incriminate you ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.; 

Mr. Grundfest. This question comes under the area of self-incrim- 
ination, and therefore I have the right to refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. When did you first learn that Professor Boyer was 
a Communist spy ? 

]\[r. Grundfest. It appeared in the newspapers, and when it did, 
I first heard it. 

The Chairman. Have you seen him since that time; since you 
learned he is a spy, have you seen him ? 

Mr. Grundfest. I don't recall, sir. 

The Chairman. You do not recall whether you did or not? 

Mr. Grundfest. I don't recall whether, after he was sent to jail, 
that I ever saw him. I don't believe so. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you go to visit him in jail ? 

Mr. Grundfest. No, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Then you know you didn't see him since he has gone 
to jail. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 47 

The Chairman. Did you write to him ? 

Mr. Grundfest. I don't recall that. 

Mr. CoHN. You say you don't recall whether you did or whether 
you didn't or you don't think you did, which is it? You don't think 
you did write to him, or you do not recall one way or the other ? 

Mr. Grundfest. I don't recall one way or the other. 

The Chairman. For you to write to a convicted spy in jail would 
be of insufficient moment to you to remember that ? 

Mr. Grundfest. Well, I don't believe I have ever written to him, 
but I don't recall, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you think Communists should be allowed to 
continue as professors in colleges? 

Mr. Grundfest. May I refuse to answer, sir, on the grounds that 
this has no relation to anything here. This is a question in the domain 
of my private feelings and beliefs. 

The Chairman. You cannot refuse on that ground. You can refuse 
if you feel the answer would tend to incriminate you. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grundfest. I believe it is outside the jurisdiction of this 
committee, sir. 

The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer. 

Mr. Grundfest. I refuse to answer on all of the grounds I have 
specified before. 

The Chairman. You do not include the grounds of self-incrimi- 
nation ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grundfest. I don't quite understand your question, sir. "V\Tiat 
was the question ? 

The Chairman. The reporter will read the question. I think a 
professor should be able to understand a simple question. Will you 
read it to him, Mr. Reporter ? 

(The question was read by the reporter.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grundfest. I refuse to answer, sir, because it is outside the 
jurisdiction of this committee. 

The Chairman. May we have the record show that the witness was 
ordered to answer, and he refuses, and he does not invoke the fifth 
amendment. Is that correct. Professor? You are not invoking the 
fifth amendment? 

Mr. Grundfest. In this case, yes. 

Mr. CoHN. Professor Grundfest, between the time you were with 
the Army Signal Corps down at Fort Monmouth and the time you 
went to Columbia, were you at Princeton ? 

Mr. Grundfest. Yes. 

Mr. CoHN. Exactly what were you doing at Princeton ? 

Mr. Grundfest. I was working in the physiological ways of pro- 
ducing gunshot injuries. 

Mr. CoHN. Physiological ways of producing — — 

Mr. Grundfest. The physiological phenomenon. It is called wound 
ballistics. 

Mr. CoHN. Was the work you were doing there classified work for 
the United States Government ? 

Mr. Grundfest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. It was ? 



48 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Gkundfest. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. At that time when you were doing that work were you 
a member of the Communist Part}'? 

Mr. Gruxdfest. I refuse to answer, sir. 

Mr. CoHX. While you were doing that classified work for the 
United States Government at Princeton were you in constant asso- 
ciation with members of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Grundfest, I refuse to answer, sir. 

The Chairman. On what ground ? 

Mr. Grundfest. On all grounds, sir, including self-incrimination. 

Mr. CoHN. On February 14 of 1952, did you appear at a Communist 
meeting on a program with Victor Perlo, a Soviet espionage agent? 
P-e-i'-l-o. ^ 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grundfest. I object to the question, sir, but I will answer it 
if you will leave out the characterizations. 

Mr. CoHN. We will put it this way 

The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question as asked 
by counsel. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grundfest. Then I decline, sir, on the basis of the fifth amend- 
ment. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, the record will note, of course, that 
Victor Perlo has been named under oath by Whittaker Chambers and 
Elizabeth Bentley as a Communist spy, and head of the Perlo group, 
the Perlo spy cell of the Communist Party. And Mr. Perlo, in ap- 
pearances before our committee and before other congressional com- 
mittees, has consistently invoked the fifth amendment as to espionage 
activities up to and including the present time. 

Then, of course, Attorney General Brownell referred at length to 
that in the course of his recent testimony. 

I would ask, Mr. Chairman, that we receive in evidence now, from 
the Daily Worker of February 14, 1952, a notice of a conference called 
by 4 people, 2 of whom were Dr. Harry Grundfest and Mr. Victor 
Perlo. 

The Chairman. That will be received. 

Mr. Frankle. May the record show the whole thing? 

Mr. CoHN. This is from page 8 of the Daily Worker, New York, 
Thursday, February 14, 1952, and the conference by the National 
Council of American-Soviet Friendship was a conference on Ameri- 
can-Soviet relations, and the leaders of the conference were Dr. Harry 
Grundfest, Mr. Victor Perlo, and 2 other names, and the other 2 
names I don't believe have been mentioned before this committee. 

The moderator of the conference was Dr. Alpheus Hunton, Il-u-n- 
t-o-n, who the records of this committee will show Avas convicted of 
contempt of court following his refusal to answer questions in connec- 
tion with the fiight of the Communist leaders, for whom he had been 
one of the bail trustees. 

Mr. Frankle. This is not yet a court. It is the records of this 
committee. 

Mr. CoiiN. The record of the United States District Court of the 
Southern District of New York, whose hospitality we are enjoying 
at this moment. 

I will end this by saying luncheon was served at the meeting. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 49 

(The document above referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 2," and 
will be found in the appendix on p. 67.) 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Professor Grundfest, are you the Dr. Harry 
Grundfest who signed an appeal to the President of the United States 
asking- for the inmiediate release of the convicted Conuiiunist Party 
leaders, on December 10, 1952, which appeal was published in the 
Daily Worker ? 

Mr. Grundfest. I do not recall, but I expect I signed such an appeal. 
I don't know the exact wording of it. 

Mr. CoiTN. May we have this in the record? It is entitled "280 
National Leaders Ask Truman's Amnesty for Jailed Communists," 
j)age 4 of the Daily Worker, New York, Wednesday, December 10, 
1952. And one of the signatories appearing there is Prof. Harry 
Grundfest, Columbia University. 

The CHAiRMAisr. That will be received as an exhibit. 

(The document above referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 3," and 
may be found in the files of the subcommittee.) 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions to 
ask the professor. 

The Chairman. Just 1 or 2 further questions. 

Did you ever attend meetings of the Communist Party where there 
was discussed any classified Government material or work? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grundfest. To the best of my knowledge, sir, I never discussed 
classified information with anyone who was not authorized to dis- 
cuss this with me; and as for the rest, I refuse to answer, sir. 

The Chairman. Your idea of a Communist who is authorized to 
get secrets may be different from the Chair's, and so I will ask you 
the question : Did you ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party 
where you heard discussed classified Government w^ork, regardless 
of whether you think that you were authorized to do it or not? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grundfest. I must refuse to answer that, sir. 

The Chairman. On the grounds of self-incrimination? 

Mr. Grundfest. On the groimds as I pointed out before, sir. 

The Chairman. Is one of the grounds that the answer might tend 
to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Grundfest. Including that, yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Including that ground ? 

Mr. Grundfest. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You may step down. You will consider yourself 
under subpena. 

Incidentally, are you still at Columbia? 

Mr. Grundfest. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You are? 

Mr. Grundfest. Yes. 

The Chairman. That is all. 

May I say we had one other witness called for this morning, but 
he apparently has not had an opportunity to discuss the matter with 
his attorney, so I think that it would not be proper to put him on 
this morning. We will give him a chance to discuss this matter with 
his attorney in full. 



50 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

There is one other witness subpenaed. Is Mr. Marcel UHmann 
in the room ? 

(No response.) 

Mr. CoHN. The record will indicate that Mr. Marcel Ullmann, who 
the records of this committee show is a rather well-known employee 
of Fort Monmouth, was served and has been under a continuing sub- 
pena from this committee, and was supposed to respond on imme- 
diate notice. A telegram was sent to him yesterday, and we have ^ 
message from Western Union that that telegram was delivered, and 
Mr, Ullmann has failed to appear. 

I would suggest that in view of his failure to appear, contempt 
action by this committee be considered. 

The Chairman. I will recommend to the full committee that he 
be cited for contempt, and that his case be referred to the grand 
jury. 

I may say for the record that Mr. Ullmann was before us in execu- 
tive session, and he was asked about alleged espionage activities on 
his part at Fort Monmouth, up to a very recent date, and he claimed 
the fifth amendment on the grounds if he were to tell the committee 
the truth it would incriminate him. 

I will recommend that he be cited and indicted for contempt of 
the committee for his failure to appear this morning. 

We will adjourn until 2 : 30 Monday afternoon, at which time hear- 
ings will be held in the same room. Hearings will be held Monday 
and Tuesday, and as to the rest of the week we will determine later. 

(Whereupon, at 11 : 50 a. m., the hearing was adjourned until 2 : 30 
p. m., Monday, November 30, 1953.) 



AEMY SIGNAL COEPS— SUBYERSION AND ESPIONAGE 



TUESDAY, DECEMBEB 8, 1953 

United States Senate, 
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations or the 

Committee on Government Operations, 

Washington^ D. G. 

The subcommittee met (pursuant to S. Res. 40, agreed to January 
80, 1953) at 10:35 a. m., in the caucus room of the Senate Office 
Building, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy (chairman) presiding. 

Present : Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin ; and 
Senator Charles E. Potter, Republican, Michigan. 

Present also : Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel, Francis P. Carr, executive 
director, Thomas W. LaVenia, assistant counsel, Daniel G. Buckley, 
assistant counsel, and Ruth Y. Watts,^hief clerk. 

The Chairman. We will proceed. 

Mr. Aaron Coleman, will you take the stand up here ? 

Will you raise your right hand and be sworn I In this matter now 
in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly sw^ear to tell the 
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Coleman. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF AAEON HYMAN COLEMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 
COUNSEL, RICHARD F. GREEN, OF ELIZABETH, N. J.) 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Coleman's counsel has requested that while Mr. 
Coleman is testifying, no pictures be taken of him. Is that right, Mr. 
Green ? 

Mr. Green. Thank you, sir. 

The Chairman. We will ask the television cameras not to focus 
upon the witness, and we will ask the still photographers to take no 
pictures either while the witness is testifying. 

Do you have any objection to pictures being taken now? 

Mr. Green. No, sir. 

Mr. Cohn, Do you object to the television lights ? 

Mi. Green. We would like to reserve the right to request that they 
be turned off, but at the moment no objection. 

Mr. Cohn. As soon as you feel there is one, you tell us about it, 
and we will order them to be turned off. 

Did we get your full name ? 

Mr. Coleman. Aaron Hyman Coleman. 

Mr. Cohn. And where do you reside, Mr. Coleman? 

Mr. Coleman. 42 Branchport Avenue, Long Branch, N. J. 

Mr. Cohn. And until the end of September of this year, were you 
on duty as an employee of the Evans Signal Laboratory at Fort 
Monmouth, N. J. ? 

51 



52 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Coleman. Not of the Evans Signal Laboratory. I was assigned 
to the Signal School in January of 1952. Prior to that time I was 
with the Evans Signal Laboratory. 

Mr. CoHN. Until January of 1952 you were with Evans Signal 
Laboratory; from Jamiary of 1952 until the end of September of 
this year, 1953, until the end of September of the current year, you 
were attached to the Signal School at Fort Monmouth ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, for how long a period of time have you been 
employed at Fort IMonmouth ? 

Mr. CoLEHiAN. The total period is approximately 15 years. 

Mr. CoHN. That is when you were a radar officer in the Marine 
Corps? 

Mr. Coleman. Exclusive of 2 years' military furlough with the 
Marine Corps. 

Mr. CoHN. When you were with the Marine Corps, you served as a 
radar officer, is that correct? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. As of January 1952, when with the Evans Signal Lab- 
oratory, what was your position ? 

Mr. Coleman. I was the chief of the systems section. 

The Chairman. Chief of the systems section ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. You were chief of the systems section, is that right? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. What was your grade and salary? 

Mr. Coleman. GS-14, $9,600 a year. 

Mr. CoHN. In this position as chief of the systems section, did you 
have access to classified material ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Up to what classification were you cleared ? 

Mr. Coleman. I am not sure. I think it was secret. For most of 
that period it was secret. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, you will agi^ee that your position was an extremely 
sensitive one, will you not ? You had access to important material ? 

Mr. Coleman. I am not sure of the use of the adverb, the word 
"extremely." It was a sensitive position, and I do not know how 
sensitive. I am in no position to evaluate its sensitivity. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, at this point, from the file, photostatic 
copy of personnel file supplied us by the Department of the Army, and 
which has been unclassified on October 9, 1953, I wonder if I could 
just read from some sections, from the job description of Mr. Cole- 
man's duties. This is from his personnel file. 

Mr. Coleman is responsible for planning, orjianiziiip:, direetinfr, coordinating, 
and programing the work of a large organizational segment engaged in the i*e- 
seareh, development, design, and constrnction of large-scale antiaircraft systems 
for employment by the Army all over the world. 

The urgent need for the centralized direction of large numbers of various anti- 
aircraft weapons, guided missiles, rockets, guns, countermeasures for defense 
against atomic bombing attacks has been repeatedly emphasized by Anny Field 
Forces. This organizational segment is also engaged in the design and develop- 
ment of new computers, displays, tracers, and similar equipment required for 
completely integrated systems. 

The dollar value of the total internal and external efl'ort on these systems 
is at approximately $32 million for fiscal years 1940 to VXui, inclusive. Approxi- 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 53 

mately $10 million is to be expended during the fiscal year of 1952 for the design 
and development of new equipment. 

I emphasize again, Mr. Chairman, that we feel at liberty to read 
tliis because this file has been specifically unclassified by the Depart- 
ment of the Army, and that is noted here on the file. 

Now, you returned to Evans Signal Laboratory in 1945, is that 
correct, Mr. Coleman, or the beginning of 1946 ? 

Mr. Coleman. I am not sure what the official date is, and I think it 
is January of 1946, but I am not completely sure. It might be Decem- 
ber of 1945 or January 1946. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, did you have a secret clearance at that time ? 

Mr. Coleman. I believe I did, while I was in the Marine Corps. 

Mr. CoHN. I am talking about the time you were in Evans Signal 
Laboratory. 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir ; I believe so. 

Mr. CoHN. You did have a secret clearance ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Did that clearance continue from 1946 until 1952? In 
other words, when you were at Evans Signal Laboratory in 1952, did 
you still have that secret clearance ? 

Mr. Coleman. As far as I know ; yes, sir. I may have lost it with- 
out knowing it, but as far as I know ; yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. And you were aware of the definition of "secret" ; is that 
right? 

Mr. Coleman. In general terms; that secret material would harm 
the Nation or the Nation's prestige if it were revealed to an enemy. 
I am not sure verbatim what the definition is. 

Mr. CoHN. I think we have a verbatim definition of that, Mr. 
Chairman. 

The Chaikman. I think it might be well if we read a definition of 
''secret" into the record at this time, Mr. Cohn. I believe that I have 
the military definition here someplace in my grip. 

Mr. Cohn. We can insert that in the record at this point if it is 
agreeable with the Chair. 

The Chairman. It will be so ordered. 

(The definition is as follows:) 

Secret Infokmation 

Information and material (matter), the unauthorized disclosure of which 
would endanger national security, cause serious injury to the interests or pres- 
tige of the Nation, or would be of great advantage to a foreign nation shall be 
classified secret. 

2. The following are some examples of matter which normally shall be classi- 
fied "secret" : 

(a) Particulars of operations in progress. 

(ft) Plans or particulars of operations, or war plans with necessary en- 
closures thereto, not included under "top secret." 

(c) Instructions regarding the employment of important new munitions of 
war, including scientific and technical developments. 

(d) Important improvements to existing munitions of war until accepted 
for service use including scientific and technical developments. 

(e) Information relating to new material (matter) including material (mat- 
ter) of the type described in 1 above. 

(/) Information of the type described in 1 above concerning specific quantities 
of war reserves. 

(g) Development projects of the type described in 1 above. 



54 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

(h) Information of enemy or i>otentiaI enemy material or other material, 
procedure, dispositions and activities, the value of which depends upon con- 
cealing the fact that we possess it. 

(i) Reports of operations containing information of vital interest to the enemy. 

(;■) Vital military information on important defenses. 

(A-) Adverse reports on general morale aifecting major operations. 

(I) Communication intelligence information and important communication 
security devices and material of the type described in 1 above. 

(m) Certain new or specialized techniques or methods to be used in future 
operations. The identity and composition of units, wherever located, which 
are especially intended for employment of such techniques or methods. 

(w) Information indicating the strength of our troops, air and naval forces, 
identity or composition of units or quantity of specific items of equipment pertain- 
ing thereto in active theaters of operation, except that mailing addresses will 
include organizational designations. 

(o) Photographs, negatives, photostats, diagrams, or models of secret matter. 

ip) Certain compilations of data or items which individually may be classified 
"confidential" or lower when the aggregate of the information 'warrants the 
higher classification. 

I think it might be well to read the definition of "top secret". 

Information and material (matter), the security aspect of which is para- 
mount, and the unauthorized disclosure of which would cause exceptionally grave 
damage to the Nation shall be classified "top secret." 

The top-secret category is reserved for information which in and of itself, if 
disclosed without authorization, would reasonably be expected to lead ultimately 
to one or more of the following results : 

(a) Initiation of war against the United States by a foreign government as a 
countermeasure against plans or intentions disclosed. 

(&) Defeat of planned operations of war of the United States, if launched. 

(c) Loss by the United States of a scientific or technical advantage of sufficient 
military importance as to affect materially the course or outcome of a war or 
major operation. 

Mr. CoHN. You testified before the committee, Mr. Coleman, on 
two occasions, I believe, in executive sessions ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. And on a number of occasions prior to that you were 
interviewed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN, And at all times have you told the truth and endeavored 
to tell the truth? 

Mr, Coleman. To the best of my knowledge ; yes, sir. I endeavored 
to tell the truth as I saw it. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, I wanted to note that the investigation 
of subversive infiltration in the Signal Corps commenced on August 
31, 1953, and that the first witnesses from the Signal Corps were heard 
in executive session in New York on that date; namely, Monday, 
August 31, 1953. 

Now you say that the testimony you gave was true; is that correct? 

Mr. Coleman. Insofar as I know. 

Mr. CoHN. And you were telling us the truth when you said you 
were never a member of the Young Communist League ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. And you were telling the truth when you testified as 
follows, and I am reading from page 637 of the record at this time. 

I did not have to hold Mr. Coleman on for this, but I will tell you, 
Mr. Green ; Mr. Coleman can step aside now ; and as I explained to 
you, we wanted to get this background in, and we are going to hear 
some other witnesses. We would like Mr. Coleman to stay in the room 
and hear them, too, and then when they are through, we will recall Mr. 
Coleman, and you, and if there is any statement that Mr. Coleman 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 55 

wants to make, we want to remind you of the committee rule that that 
should be submitted to the Chair, I think the rule is 24 hours in 
advance of the giving of that statement. I do not know whether 
you anticipate one or not. 

Mr. Green. Quite obviously that is impossible, because we came 
down here without a secretarial staff. 

Mr. CoHN. You talk to me after the hearing, Mr. Green, and if 
there is difficulty on that, tell me about it, and I will take it up with 
the Chair and see if we can get that rule waived, and any other accom- 
modations we can give you along those lines we will be glad to do 
that. 

Mr. Green. That will be fine. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, before the next witness is called, in view 
of Mr. Coleman's reaffirmation of his testimony in executive session, 
the following testimony becomes extremely important, and I would 
like to read it into the record at this point. The issue here is whether 
or not Mr. Coleman had continued his association with Julius Rosen- 
berg, who was convicted and executed for conspiracy to commit 
espionage in the southern district of New York, following their days 
at City College. To that effect, Mr. Coleman testified as follows — I 
read from page 637 : 

Let me ask you this, Mr. Coleman. Did you see Julius Rosenberg at all after 
you left college? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir; I have never seen him or heard from him or corre- 
sponded with him. 

Question. Did you see him after you attended the Young Communist League 
meeting with him? 

Answer. I believe I did in my class. 

Question. Did you see him thereafter? 

Answer. Never. 

Now, I am reading from page 639 : 

The Chairman. When did you say you first went to the Signal Corps? 

Mr. Coleman. In March of 1939. 

The Chairman. March of 1939? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You knew Rosenberg was working there in the early 1940's ; 
did you? 

Mr. Coleman. I did not; no, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you ever learn Rosenberg was working for the Signal 
Corps? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir ; I did not. 

The Chairman. May I suggest, Mr. Cohn, at this point, that we 
ask the witness whether or not he questions the fact that these ques- 
tions were asked and the answers made as read by counsel ? 

Mr. Coleman. I am sorry, I did not hear that. 

The Chairman. If, as this testimony is read, Mr. Coleman and Mr. 
Green, you take issue with the correctness of the transcript, you will 
promptly notify counsel. Otherwise, we will assume that this is as 
you remember the testimony. 

Mr. Coleman. On the last point, I believe the first time that I 
learned 

The Chairjman. I am not asking you the questions now. 

Mr. Coleman. I think on the last question, I am not sure. 

Mr. CoHN. I will read it again. 

The Chairman. All we want to know is if there is anything wrong 
in the stenographic minutes here. 



56 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. CoHN (reading) : 

The Chairman. When did you say you first went to the Signal Corps? 

Mr. Coleman. In March of 1939. 

The Chaieman. March of 1939? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You knew Rosenberg was working there in the early 1940's; 
did you? 

Mr. Coleman. I did not ; no, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you ever learn Rosenberg was working for the Signal 
Corps? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir ; I did not. 

Now, let me read the next one to you, and maybe that will clarify 
something, and then you can comment on the whole thing. 

The Chairman. While you are looking for that, may I say, Mr. 
Green, that we have completely reliable reporters, and they use the 
utmost caution, and there is no question in the mind of the Chair that 
this is an exact transcript. However, I think in fairness to the wit- 
ness, he should be entitled to comment if he thinks at any place the 
stenographic reporter misquoted him. 

Mr. CoHN. Reading from page 684: 

The Chairman. When did you last see Mr. Rosenberg? 

Mr. Coleman. In this class, in my senior year, I last saw Mr. Rosenberg. 

The Chairman. You never saw him after that? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir ; I did not. 

The Chairman. You did not know that he worked at the Signal Corps? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir ; I did not. 

The Chairman. When did you first learn that he worked at the Signal Corps? 

Mr. Coleman. When I read about his arrest in the newspapers. 

Is there anything in here which you say was an inaccurate taking 
down in the notes of what you said ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. That is all you wanted to know ? 

The Chairman. That is all. You will be called back, so do not 
leave the room. 

Mr. Coleman. One point 

The Chairman. I do not want any speech from you. I merely 
called you back here to give you a chance to tell us if you were inac- 
curately quoted by the stenographic reporter; and if you were, tell us ; 
and if not, I will hear from you later. 

I think for the record at this time we should make it clear that we 
have been getting what I consider good cooperation from the Army, 
and all of the individuals who will be questioned here as to their 
alleged Communist activities have been individuals who have been in 
the Signal Corps for a number of years, and the Army has indicated 
that they are just as anxious to get to the bottom of this as we are. 
Is not that correct, Mr. Cohn ? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, Mr. Chairman ; absolutely. 

The Chairman. That is, the present administration of the Army. 

Mr. Cohn. That is correct. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, the next witness is Nathan Sussman. 

The Chairman. Mr. Nathan Sussman. 

Mr. Cohn. I am asking the Chair to take him now. He has about 
?> minutes, and he has to make a plane connection. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 57 

TESTIMONY OF NATHAN SUSSMAN 

Mr. CoHN, Mr. Sussman, may we have your full name ? 

Mr. Sussman. Nathan Sussman. 

Mr. CoHN. S-u-s-s-m-a-n ? 

Mr. Sussman. That is correct. 

The Chairman. You are reminded you have been previously sworn, 
Mr. Sussman. That oath is still in effect. 

Mr. Sussman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. You reside in New York City. Is that your permanent 
home ? 

Mr. Sussman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Are you engaged in private business now ? 

Mr. Sussman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I wonder if the camermen would move back from 
in front of the witness. It is somewhat of a mental hazard to have 
the bulbs going off in his face while he is testifying. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Mr. Sussman, did you ever work for the United 
States Government, by the way ? 

Mr. Sussman. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Mr. CoHN. Where did you work ? 

Mr. Sussman. The Inspector of Naval Material in New York. 

Mr. CoHN. In New York. And when was that? 

Mr. Sussman. In October of 1940, to April of 1942. 

Mr. CoHN. That is your only Government employment? 

Mr. Sussman. Yes, sir; Federal Government. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Mr. Sussman, have you ever been a Communist? 

Mr. Sussman. Yes, sir; I have. 

Mr. CoHN. And during what years were you a Communist, covering 
all phases of your Communist activity ? 

Mr. Sussman. Well, between 1935 and 1940, and in 1942 to Feb- 
ruary of 1945. 

Mr. Cohn. Now, taking the period from 1935 to 1940, when you 
were a Communist, did you belong to any Communist organizations? 

Mr. Sussman. Yes, sir; the Young Communist League. 

Mr. Cohn. And where did you belong to the Young Communist 
League ? 

Mr. Sussman. From 1935 to 1938 at City College. 

Mr. Cohn. From 1935 to 1938 at City College? 

Mr. Sussman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Cohn. You were a student at City College at that time? 

Mr. Sussman. That is correct. 

Mr. Cohn. Did you know a man named Julius Rosenberg? 

Mr. Sussman. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Cohn. That is the convicted atom spy? 

Mr. Sussman. Yes. 

Mr. Cohn. Was Julius Rosenberg a Communist? 

Mr. Sussman. He was a member of the Young Communist League. 

Mr. Cohn. He was a member of the Young Communist League? 

Mr. Sussman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Cohn. Did you know Morton Sobell at City College ? 

Mr. Sussman. Yes, sir, I did. 

Mr. Cohn. I refer to Morton Sobell, convicted with Rosenberg, of 
conspiracy to commit espionage and sentenced to 30 years. Was Mor- 
ton Sobell a member of the Young Communist League ? 



58 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. SussMAN". He was. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you know Joel Barr? 

Mr. SussMAN. Yes, I did. 

Mr. CoHN. And Joel Barr, was he at City College? 

Mr. SussMAN. Yes. 

Mr. CoiiN. Was he a member of the Young Communist League? 

Mr. SussMAN. He was. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you know Aaron Coleman ? 

Mr. SussMAN. Yes, sir, I did. 

Mr. CoHN. Was he a student at City College? 

Mr. SussMAN. Yes, sir, he was. 

Mr. CoHN. Was he a member of the Young Communist League? 

Mr. SussMAN. He was. 

Mr. CoHN. You have seen Mr. Coleman here this morning? 

Mr. SussMAN. Yes, I have. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Mr. Sussman, after you left City College, was 
there a time when you were employed with the Western Electric Co.? 

Mr. SussMAN. There was. 

Mr. CoHN. And about when was that? 

Mr. SussMAN. That would be from April 1942 to December of 1947, 
I believe. 

Mr. CoHN-. Wliile you were at Western Electric Co., were you doing 
any work on any Government contracts ? 

Mr, SussMAN. Yes, sir; I was. 

Mr. CoHN. Any classified nature? 

Mr. SussMAN. That is correct. 

Mr. CoHN. Were you a Communist at that time? 

Mr. Sussman. For part of that time. 

Mr. CoHN. The early part; is that right? 

Mr. SussMAN. Mostly the early part. 

Mr. CoHN. And did you at Western Electric run into Joel Barr 
again? 

Mr. Sussman. Yes, I did. 

Mr. CoHN. In between the time you had known Joel Barr in the 
Young Communist League at City College and the time you saw him 
at Western Electric Co., do you know where Joel Barr liad worked? 

Mr. Sussman. He told me he had worked at Fort Monmouth. 

Mr. CoiiN. Now, when you knew Joel Barr, you told us he was 
in the YCL at City College, and was Joel Barr still a Communist 
wlien you saw him down at Western Electric ? 

Mr. SussMAN. Yes, he was. 

Mr. CoHN. And did you meet a man named Alfred Surrene? 

Mr. Sussman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoiiN. Was he also a Communist? 

Mr. SussMAN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoiiN. And you were, too, at that time? 

Mr. SussMAN. That is correct. 

Mr. CoTiN. Now, there are two more names, and I know there is 
other information with which you furnished the committee, and we 
are in the process of calling in witnesses, and there are two witnesses 
we have contacted and we will have them available, and I want to ask 
you about them. 

Did you know a man by the name of Morris Savitsky at City Col- 
lege? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 59 

Mr. SussMAN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Was he a member of the Young Communist League? 

Mr. SussMAN. He was. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you know a man by the name of Nathan Shoiket? 

Mr. SussMAN. Yes. 

Mr. CoiiN. Was he likewise in the Young Communist League ? 

Mr. SussMAN. Yes. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Savitsky and Mr. Shoiket have been subpenaed and 
we have asked that they appear before the committee tomorrow or 
Thursday, as soon as we can hear them. 

Now, Mr. Sussman, is it a fact that some 2 or 3 years ago, prior to 
the Rosenberg trial, you furnished the FBI with information concern- 
ing your Communist activities and told the FBI about the fact that 
Eosenberg, Sobell, Coleman, and the others you have mentioned were 
in the Young Communist League ? 

Mr. Sussman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. You gave them that information at that time ? 
' Mr. Sussman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Sussman, we will want to call you back at 
some future time, and we appreciate your making arrangements to be 
here. We know you have other engagements for today, and we will 
want to call you back at some future time. Counsel will be in touch 
with you. 

Mr. CoHN. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Green. I am aware that it is not in accordance with the cus- 
tomary practice, but may I ask the witness a couple of questions ? 

The Chairman. You can submit them in writing to the Chair. The 
rules of the committee, adopted unanimously, are that counsel will 
not be entitled to cross-examine any witness, and he may, however, 
submit questions to the Chair, and we will ask them of the witness. 

Mr. CoHN. We will be glad to do that, Mr. Green. We will put that 
on the agenda and anything along those lines you want. 

Mr. Green. Then may I have notice of the following appearance 
of the witness, so that I may present such questions ? 

Mr. CoHN. You certainly may. 

The Chairman. How much time would you want, 48 hours? 

Mr. Green. I should think so. 

Mr. Corn. We will put that on the agenda of things we have to talk 
about, and we will make arrangements for questions to be submitted. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, at this time in view of Mr. Coleman's sworn 
testimony that he was never a member of the Young Communist 
League, and now in view of the testimony of Mr. Sussman that Mr. 
Coleman was in fact a member of the Young Communist League, with 
Mr. Sussman, with Julius Rosenberg, and Sobell, and Barr, and the 
others mentioned, Savitsky and Shoiket — and Rosenberg has been 
executed ; and Barr, the record will note, according to the best infor- 
mation we have been able to obtain, has been named in public testi- 
mony as a member of the Rosenberg ring and named in testimony 
before this committee and other places ; and Barr has left this country, 
and according to our best information is behind the Iron Curtain at 
this time and, of course, unavailable to the committee. 

Sobell, of course, is serving a 30-year term for conspiracy to commit 
espionage, in Alcatraz. Shoiket and Savitsky have been subpenaed 
and will appear before the committee ; and as far as Mr. Surrene is 



60 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

concerned, the best information the committee has is that Surrene, as 
you know, Mr, Chairman, of course worked down at Fort Monmouth, 
as did Joel Barr ; and Surrene, according to our best information, has 
likewise fled this country and is behind the Iron Curtain in the Soviet 
Union at this time. Mrs. Surrene is in this country, and we have sub- 
penaed her to a})pear before the committee. 

Now, Mr. Chairman, in view of the direct conflict in testimony, and 
in view of Sussman's sworn testimony that Mr. Coleman was a mem- 
ber of the Young Communist League, I want to go to another point 
that we think is of the utmost importance. That is, of course, Mr. 
Coleman's connection with Julius Rosenberg, the convicted atom spy. 

I read to the Chair before Mr. Coleman's sworn testimony, and I 
would like to read that briefly again, if I might. The committee was 
inquiring, you might recall, to ascertain the extent of Coleman's con- 
nection with Rosenberg, and particularly whether or not they Imew 
each other while they were both with the Signal Corps. The question 
was, page 637 : 

Let me ask you this : Did you see Julius Rosenberg at all after you left college? 
Mr. Coleman. No, sir. I have never seen him or heard from him or corre- 
sponded with him. 

Page 639 : 

The Chairman. When did you say you first went to the Signal Corps? 

Mr. Coleman. In March of 1939. 

The Chairman. March of 1939? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You knew Rosenberg was working there in the early 1940*s, 
did you? 

Mr. Coleman. I did not ; no, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you ever learn Rosenberg was working for the Signal 
Corps? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir ; I did not. 

Now, I might state that this position of Mr. Coleman's, namely, 
that any connection or contact with Rosenberg ended in City College, 
that he never met him down at Fort Monmouth, was so strongly em- 
phasized by Mr. Coleman that when some of the New York newspapers 
contained statements that Coleman had in fact seen Rosenberg at 
Monmouth and was in fact a friend of Rosenberg's after college days 
and knew him and had seen him after college days, Mr. Coleman 
through his counsel, Mr. Green, sent letters to the newspapers demand- 
ing retractions and threatened suit if they were not forthcoming. 

I have specifically in my hand a letter from Mr. Green of October 
31, 1953, to Norma Abrams, of the New York Daily News, in which 
with reference to a statement in the Daily News that Mr. Coleman 
was an admitted close friend of executed atom spy Julius Rosenberg, 
Mr. Green states to the Daily News, on authorization of his client: 

Mr. Colonian was never at any time a close friend of Rosenberg, and has never 
admitted tliat he was. Rosenberg was a classmate of Mr. Coleman in City Col- 
lege in New York and they never saw or communicated with each other in any 
maimer after Mr. Coleman's graduation in 1938. 

The Chairman. Mr. Cohn, do you have a witness to dispute those 
facts? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes. We do not have a live witness, but w^e have the 
testimony of Julius Rosenberg himself, which was given at his trial in 
New Yoi'k when lie was on trial for conspiracy to commit espionage, 
for which crime he was convicted and executed. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 61 

The Chairman. I may say that the testimony from the grave would 
not be admissible in a criminal action against Mr. Coleman for per- 
jury. In a committee, however, where we are seeking the facts and 
not prosecuting criminally that evidence, of course, is admissible. It 
will be received. 

Mr. CoHN, Mr. Chairman, the subject matter of the inquiry to 
Rosenberg on cross-examination was concerning people like Barr and 
how long his association with them continued after they were class- 
mates at City College. Bearing in mind that Rosenberg and Sobell 
were in the same class, as were Barr, Coleman, and others, Rosenberg 
under cross-examination was asked a question as to Avhich people who 
were his college friends he continued a relationship with after he left 
college. 

He named Joel Barr, I recall, and one or two others, and that was 
all he could recall. Subsequently, on redirect examination, and I 
am reading from page 1284, this is at the very beginning of his re- 
direct examination, he was questioned as follows by his counsel, Mr. 
E.H. Block: 

Question. Now, between the time that Mr. Sapol cross-examined you the 
other day and today, did you have an opportunity to think more closely about 
the classmates you had at City College, New York, and whom you saw sub- 
sequent to your graduation from that institution ?" 

Rosenberg. I did, sir. 

Question. And can you give us now the names of some other classmates 
of yours with whom you had either social or business relations after your 
graduation? 

Answer. Well, there were people who were in my squad in the electrical- 
engineering courses. Mr. Aaron Coleman who subsequent to graduation I met 
at Fort Monmouth when I was assigned there. 

Of course, that is a direct and flat contradiction by Rosenberg of 
Coleman's testimony on the very important point of his association 
with Julius Rosenberg, and when it started and when it stopped, and 

1 hope this can be incorporated in the record ; and I recommend it be 
sent to the Department of Justice. 

The Chairman. The testimony will be sent to the Department of 
Justice with the recommendation that it be sent to the grand jury, 
not only this but all of the testimony of Mr. Coleman and those who 
appeared in executive session. 

Mr. Cohn, I think for the record at this time, as this testimony 
unfolds, many people will wonder, I know, why these individuals 
were kept on so long, some of them right down to the date we com- 
menced these hearings, and I think we should make it very clear that 
the FBI in all of the cases insofar as we can determine had done a 
thorough job of investigating and had reported fully to the military 
forces the nature of the evidence against these various individuals 
handling secret work. 

Is that substantially correct, Mr. Cohn ? 

Mr. Cohn. That is definitely correct, and Mr. Sussman's testimony 
here is that he furnished this information to the FBI and to the De- 
partment of Justice prior to the Rosenberg trial, and which was over 

2 years ago. Undoubtedly, he did that according to routine and in- 
variable procedure, and that information was placed by the FBI in 
reports which would have been sent to the agency in which Mr. Cole- 
man was working, and we know that no action whatsoever was taken 
against Mr. Coleman until a month before this investigation began, 



62 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

and he continued to work at Monmouth. And I think it is very safe 
to assume that according to regular FBI routine, the FBI had fur- 
nished the Department of the Army with this information and Cole- 
man's connection with the Young Communist League at a period at 
least over 2 years ago. 

We know from one witness he gave that to the FBI over 2 years 
ago and close to 3 years ago. 

I think it would be very important for us to determine who in the 
Army received that information and why no action was taken on the 
basis of it, and why not even a hearing was held and no question raised 
about it, and whether or not those people are still in positions of re- 
sponsibility in the Army, making decisions on other cases. 

The Chairman. That is a very good idea. 

Mr. Coleman, we are going to put several other witnesses on, and 
I am sure you will want to hear them before you testify, so that you 
will know what their testimony is. 

Mr. Cohn, I think we should have a resume in the record of the 
secret and other classified documents that Mr. Coleman removed from 
the Signal Corps laboratory. Has that been prepared? 

Mr. CoHN. That will be covered tomorrow, Mr. Chairman. 

TESTIMONY OF AAEON HYMAN COLEMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 
COUNSEL, EICHARD P. GREEN, OF ELIZABETH, N. J.)— Recalled 

The Chairman. Incidentally, while we are waiting for the next wit- 
ness, you have not been reinstated as of this time, have you ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Your case is still pending ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. The nest witness. Mr. Kitty. 

Will you raise your right hand ? 

In the matter now in hearing before the committee, do you swear 
to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. Kitty. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF FRED JOSEPH KITTY 

Mr. CoHN. May we have your full name, Mr. Kitty ? 

Mr. Kitty. Fred Joseph Kitty. 

Mr. CoHN. Where do you reside ? 

Mr. Kitty. Do you want the full address ? Cranf ord, N. J. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Kitty, I would like to ask you : Have you worked 
for the United States Government ? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir ; I have, sir. 

Mr. Cohn. Keep your voice up a bit, will you ? 

Where have you worked for the Government ? 

Mr. Kitty. Evans Signal Laboratory. 

Mr. Cohn. And during what period of time were you employed 
at Evans Signal Laboratory ? 

Mr. Km-Y. 1942 to 1945. 

Mr. Cohn. After you left Evans, where did you go ? 

Mr. Kitty. I went to work for Bendix radio division. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 63 

Mr. CoHN. How long were you with Bendix ? 

Mr. Kitty. Seven years. 

Mr. CoHN. That is 1945 to 1952 ? 

Mr. Kitty. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. While you were at Bendix, did you work on any Gov- 
ernment work? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Mr. CoHN. Classified ? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Was any of it Army work ? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. It was classified work, is that right ? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir. 

Mr.CoHN. In 1952? 

Mr. Kitty. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Mr. Kitty, were you ever a member of the Young 
Communist League ? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir ; I was, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Where was that? 

Mr. Kitty. Cooper Union; and before that neighborhood club at 
New York. 

Mr. CoHN. First a neighborhood club at New York and then at 
Cooper Union, is that right ? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. In what years were you in the YCL at Cooper Union ? 

Mr. Kitty. Between 1938 and 1941. 

Mr. CoHN. Was there a man by the name of Harry Sachs ? Did 
you know him? 

Mr. Kitty. I did not know him at Cooper Union ; I met him later. 

Mr. CoHN. Where did you meet him? 

Mr. Kjtty. Evans Signal Laboratory, 

Mr. CoHN. Now, did you find out from conversations with Mr. 
Sachs that he had been a member of the YCL ? 

Mr. Kitty. I don't recall. I never attended any meetings with him, 
but I understood from conversations that he had been. 

Mr. CoHN. That he had been a member ? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you meet Alfred Surrene up at Evans Signal Lab- 
oratory ? 

Mr. Kitty. No, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you know whether or not Surrene was a Commu- 
nist? 

Mr. Kitty. I did not. 

Mr. CoHN. You had no way of knowing that one way or the other? 

Mr. IviTTT. I did not. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Mr. Kitty, do you know Aaron Coleman? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir ; I do. 

Mr. CoHN. You have seen him here this morning ? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you ever work with Coleman at Evans Signal Lab- 
oratory ? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir ; I worked for him. 

Mr. CoHN. He was your boss ; is that right ? 

Mr. Ejtty. Yes, sir. 



64 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. CoiiN. During what period of time was that? 

Mr. KrrTY. 1942 to 1944. 

Mr, CoHN. Then he left and went on military leave, is that right? 

Mr. Kitty. That is right. 

Mr. CoiiN. And he was away from Evans for a couple of years 
and then returned, is tliat right? 

]Mr. Kitty. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you see him again after he returned? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir, I did. 

Mr. CoHN. By the way, did Mr. Coleman know Harry Sachs? 

Mr. Kitty. I would say so; yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Do you have a definite recollection that they did know 
each other? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir, for a while I believe Harry Sachs moved into 
the apartment that Coleman vacated when Coleman went to the 
marines. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Coleman's military leave was around 1944 to 1945 
or 1946. is that your recollection on that? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Mr. Kitty, did Coleman ever directly or indi- 
rectly ask you to take radar material and classified material from the 
Evans Signal Laboratory and send it to him when he was not with 
the Evans Signal Laboratory? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, he did. 

Mr. CoHN. Did he ever ask you that directly ? 

Mr. Kitty. I don't recall whether he asked me directly in a conver- 
sation; to the best of my recollection it is that he made a request 
through correspondence and possibly through Mr. Okun, a mutual 
acquaintance. 

Mr. CoiiN. That is Jack Okun? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Do you have a definite recollection of some of these 
requests coming through Okun? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoiiN. Now, as a result of these requests, did you take any 
classified material from Evans Signal Laboratoiy and send it to Mr. 
Coleman ? 

Mr, Kitty. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you send any of it to him directly ? 

Mr. Kitty, Yes, sir ; I did, 

Mr. CoiiN. How did you send it to him ? 

Mr. Kitty. By correspondence. 

Mr. CoiiN. You sent it to him through the mails? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoiiN. In those letters, containing that classified material, did 
you, in addition to the written information, supply some sketches ? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes ; I did, sir. 

Mr. CoHN, Now, in addition to your direct communication with Mr. 
Coleman, did you furnish him with material through Mr. Okun? 

Mr. KiTiTt'. I don't recall that I did, but it is quite possible that I did. 

Mr. CoHN. Wliat you recall about Mr. Okun is that the requests 
came through him ? 

Mr, Kitty. That is right. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 65 

Mr. CoHN. Do you recall requests coming through Okun and that 
the material was supplied directly by you to Coleman; is that right? 

Mr. EaxTY. That is right. 

The Chairman. Mr. Cohn, at this time may I ask, does the record 
show that the Army intercepted some of those letters with classified 
material in them directed to Mr. Coleman ? 

Mr. CoHN. I was about to ask Mr. Kitty : Do you know whether or 
not the Federal Bureau of Investigation is in possession of some of 
those letters which you wrote to Mr. Coleman containing this classified 
material ? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, they are. 

Mr. CoHN. They have shown those letters to you ? 

Mr. KjTTY. Yes. 

Mr. CoHN. And you recognized them and identified them? 

Mr. Kitty. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. And have you supplied the committee with the names 
and identities of some of the projects concerning which you supplied 
Mr. Coleman with material? You have told that to us, is that right? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, I have. 

Mr. Cohn. I do not want to go into those now, because we have not 
determined that that is unclassified, in the case of one there is a pos- 
sibility that the actual designation is still classified, and I do not 
want to go into that in public session now. 

Did there come a time when you refused to continue furnishing this 
information to Coleman? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, sir ; there did. 

Mr. CoHN. About when was that ? 

Mr. Kitty. I would guess about September of 1944. 

Mr. CoHN. And at that time, did a request come from Okun for 
some specific items ? 

Mr. Kitty. I do not recall that the request came directly from Mr. 
Okun ; I do not know the refusal to give the information was made 
to Mr. Okun. 

Mr. CoHN. The refusal was made by you to Mr. Okun ? 

Mr, Kitty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. You told him you did not want any more of it and would 
not supply this or any further information ? 

Mr. Kitty. That is correct. 

Mr. Cohn. That was the last that you heard about that ? 

Mr. Kitty. That is right, sir. 

The Chairman. At the time the FBI questioned you, they showed 
you letters that they had intercepted and letters from you to Coleman 
containing classified material, is that correct? 

Mr. Kitty. That is right, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. You do not know what Coleman actually did with this 
information, do you ? 

Mr. Kitty. No ; I don't know. 

Mr. CoHN. Is it correct to say that it was your assumption that what 
he was going to do with it was use it in connection with Marine Corps 
work or something like that ? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes, it was my impression. 

Mr. CoHN. Then there came a time Avhen you felt if that is what he 
wanted it for, he should ask for it through official channels and not in 



66 ARAIY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

tlie way it was ^oing on, and you refused to do this any more and you 
refused to supply any further information? 

Mr. Kitty. That is rifjht, sir. 

Mr. CoHx. That is right? 

Mr. Kitty. Yes. 

Mr. CoHX. I have nothing further. 

The Chairmax. Just one further question. I think counsel made 
this clear, but as far as you are concerned, you have no way of knowing 
whether or not Coleman might merely have asked you for this in 
connection with his work? 

Mr. Kitty. Would you repeat that, sir ? 

The Chairmax. As far as you are concerned, you do not have any 
ijiformation what Coleman did with the material^ 

Mr. Kitty. No, sir ; I do not. 

Mr. CoHX. All you know is what you told us here, and the fact after 
you had done this for a while, you made up your mind if he wanted 
it for what he said he wanted it for, it should be secured by a formal 
request through channels, and you would no longer supply informa- 
tion in the way you had been doing it? 

Mr. Kitty. That is right, sir. 

Mr. CoHX. I have nothing further. 

The Chairmax. May I say, Mr. Green, this is perhaps the last time 
we recall this witness, and if you have any questions you want to ask. 
if you will jot them down, you can send them up. 

Mr. Greex. Written questions, Senator ? 

The Chairmax. Yes. Or if something important comes up, we 
will call him back. 

Mr. Green. I do not think I can conduct cross-examination by 
written questions. It would delay the whole proceeding, and I do not 
think it would be satisfactory to anyone. 

The Chairman. Thank you. 

Who is your next witness : 

Mr. Green, I will not be able to finish with Mr. Coleman this morn- 
ing, and it is possible he may want to go back to the stand this morn- 
ing, however. Unless he prefers to go on today, we will hold up his 
testimony and put him on tomorrow. We will not be able to finish 
with him today. Is it satisfactory to wait until tomorrow? 

I say we cannot finish with him today, and we will not call him 
again this morning unless for some reason he wants to go back on the 
stand. He may w^ant to comment on some of the testimony that has 
been given here about him today. Otherwise he will be called at 
10 : 30 tomorrow morning or perhaps 11 o'clock tomorrow morning. 
Is that satisfactory ? 

Mr. Greex. That is satisfactory. 

The Chairman. The committee will adjourn until 11 o'clock tomor- 



row morning 



(Whereupon, at 11 : 30 a. m., the subcommittee recessed, to recon- 
vene at 11 a. m. Wednesday, December 9, 1953.) 



APPENDIX 



Exhibit No. 2 
IP. 8 Daily Worker, New York, Thursday, February 14, 1952] 



Amerlaiii-Sdvkt ReMims 

Ciimike li#i> e&uMrhM €lwp^erm0 for m4}rM peace? 

A whale «ia^** e«nfep*>siee ^- SATI5BP4V, FE8Els4R¥ Ife, 1932 

JBEEVOORT FJOTEi, Fmia AvfB»e a* Sth Street 

S«»ic«r*» irmi& M A. M, ?f» S J*» M* 

^l«5lea?s, isj«l»disif laiscii ~— $1.23 

MH. nvaii OEAi^E « MISS JESSICA SIIITM 

JF»r r&«er»mtufm» -~~ trsrlt* or phone i 

NATie?^AL COUN'OL <IF AMERICW-SO¥!ET . FFJENDSIIIP 
114 East S2»d Sl.» n^vf Y*rk City , Ml! 3-2080, 



67 



INDEX 

Pas* 

Aberdeen Proving Grounds 40 

Adams, John 13 

Air Corps (United States Army) 14,21 

Air Force (United States) 14,40-42 

Air Force Base (Newark, N. J.) 41,42 

Alcatraz (Federal prison) 59 

American-Soviet Relations (conference notice) 67 

American Veterans Committee (AVC) 3,6,7,9,10 

Anti-Communists (AVC) 10 

Appeals Board (Washington) 4,5 

Applied Physics Branch, Measurements Section (Evans Signal Labo- 
ratory ) 2, 10 

ARMA Corp. (Brooklyn, N. Y.) 15,21 

Army (United States) 6,13,14,16,17,40-42,44,52,53,56,62,68 

Army agencies 14 

Army Air Corps 14,21 

Army Field Forces 52 

Atom and the Brass Hat (pamphlet) 2 

AVC (American Veterans Committee) 3,6,7,9,10 

Banks, Jack 39 

Barr, Joel 21, 22, 58-61 

Belgium 21 

Bendix (radio division) 62,63 

Bendix Aviation Co 15 

Bentley, Elizabeth 48 

Bernstein, Barry S., testimony of l-ll 

Block, E. H 61 

Boudin, Leonard B 24-26, 32, 35 

Boyer, Raymond 45, 4t» 

Brevoort Hotel (New York) 67 

British electronic valves (vacuum tubes) 17 

Brooklyn, N. Y 15 

Brownell, Attorney General 48 

Chambers, Whittaker 48 

Chief Signal Officer (Army Signal Corps) 13 

City College of New York 11, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61 

Clifton, N. J 40 

Coleman, Aaron Hyman 11, 58-61, 63-66 

Testimony of 51-56, 62 

Coles Laboratory (Fort Monmouth, N. J.) 14 

Columbia University 44, 47, 49 

Communist International 28 

Commonwealth of Pennsylvania 19 

Communist Party 4, 5, 8, 11, 13, 24, 27-33, 36, 39, 40, 42, 44-49, 54-60, 62, 63 

Communist Party (New York) 39 

Communist Party (Philadelphia) 39 

Communist Party (Russia) 4,38 

Communist Party (United States) ' 5, 

8, 11, 13, 24, 27-33, 36, 39, 40, 42, 44-49, 54-60, 62, 63 

Communist Party (Young Communist League) 5,11 

Communist system in Russia 4 

Communists (infiltration of the Signal Corps) 13 

Constitution of the United States 36, 38, 41, 42 

Cooper Union ' 53 

Cranford, N. J 62 

Daily News (New York) 60 



II INDEX 

Daily Worker (publication) 48,49,67 

Davies, Bennett 6, 7 

Deane, Hugh 67 

Defense Department 38 

Department of the Air Force (Newark, N. J.) 40-42 

Department of the Army 14, 52, 53, 62. 63 

Department of Justice 23, 61 

Department of State 21 

Dover, N. J. (Lake Denmark) 40,42 

Eastern Monmouth Chapter (AVC) 3,7 

Electronic Research Associates, Inc. (North Caldwell, N. J.) 41,42 

Elizabeth. N. J 51, 60 

Emerson Radio Co 15, 20, 21 

Engineering and Technical Division (Army Signal Corps) — ; 13,14 

Espey 15 

Evans Signal Laboratory (Fort Monumouth, N. J.) 1, 

2, 6, 9, 10, 14, 17, 20, 38, 42, 51-53, 62-64 

Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 9, 21, 54, 59, 61, 62, 65 

Federal courts (New York State) 18,20 

Federal Government 19, 28, 29, 36, -38, 40, 45, 47^9, 57, 62, 63 

Federal grand jury 39 

Federal Penitentiary (Lewisburg, Pa.) 19,23 

Federal Telecommunications Laboratories ( Nutley , N.J.) 15, 

23, 24, 26, 27, 31, 37-40, 42 

Federal Telephone & Radio Corp. (Clifton, N. J. ) 40 

Fort Monmouth, N. J 1. 2, 6, 

7, 9, 13, 14, 17, 18, 20, 22, 27, 30, 31, 38, 39, 42, 44, 46, 47, 50-53, 60-64 

France 21 

Frankle, Osborn 43, 48 

Friends organization 2 

Furry, Prof. Wendell 45 

General Electric Co 15, 21 

Glassman, Vivian 22 

Glenn L. Martin Co 15 

Gold, Harry 20 

Government contracts 58 

Government of the United States 19, 28, 29, 36, 38, 40, 45, 47-49, 57, 58, 62, 63 

Green, Richard F 51, 54, 55, 60, 62 

Greenblum, Carl H. 24, 30 

Greenglass & Rosenberg Engineering Co. (see also Julius Rosenberg) 20 

Greenglass, David 18, 19, 21-24 

Grundfest, Harry ^7 

Testimony of ^2 

Harvard University 45, 46 

Humphrey, G. W 19 

Hunton, Dr. Alpheus 4S, b7 

Ilyman, Harry |l-33 

Testimony of oo-^d 

Inspector of Naval Material (New York) ^ 57 

Iron Curtain 59, 60 

Johnson, Howard "Stretch" 39 

Justice Department 23, 61 

Katz, Max «o^«ft 

Kitty, Fred Joseph, testimony of 62-66 

Lake Denmark, Dover, N. J 40, 42 

Lake Success, N. Y 21 

Leed.s brothers ^ 

Legislative Reorganization Act 28 

Levin.son, Gabriel " 

Levinson, Norman 6 

Levit.sky, Joseph 23, 24^ 39 

Testimony of 25-33 

Lewisburg, Pa 1^' 23 

Lewi.shurg Penitentiary 1^. 23 

Long Branch, N. J 1. 51 

Los Alamos, N. Mex 20 



INDEX III 

Page 
Lotz, Col. Walter Edward, Jr 20, 21, 23 

Testimony of 13-18 

Marine Corps 52, 53 

Martin, Glenn 15 

Mather, Prof. Kirtley 46 

May, Dr. Allan 45 

Measurements Section, Applied Physics Branch (Evans Signal Labo- 
ratory) 2, 10 

Monmouth County 7 

Mutterperl, William 11 

National Council of American-Soviet Friendship 48, 67 

Navy Air Rocket Testing Station (Lalie Denmark, Dover, N. J.) 40,42 

New York, N. Y H. 

13, 20, 21, 23, 24, 30, 35, 36, 44, 48, 49, 54, 55, 57, 60, 61, 63, 67 

New York City College 11, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61 

New York Daily News 60 

New York District Engineers Office (Department of the Army) 41,42 

New York newspapers 60 

New York State bar 18, 43 

New York State Federal courts 18, 20 

Newark, N. J 40, 41, 42 

Non-Communists ( A VC) 10 

North Caldwell, N. J 41, 42 

Nut:.^y, N. J 15, 23, 24, 26, 27, 31, 37, 38, 40, 42 

Office of the Chief Signal Officer (Army Signal Corps) 13 

Okun, Jack 64, 65 

Pennsylvania Commonwealth 19 

Perlo, Victor 48, 67 

Philadelphia Communist Party 39 

Philadelphia, Pa 20, 23, 39 

Pitt Machine Products 20 

President of the United States 49 

Princeton "^I* "^^ 

Proximity fuse 15-17, 21 

Published appeal (280 national leaders ask Truman's amnesty for jailed 

Communists) 49 

Quakers 2 

Radar 14, 21, 52 

Radio Corporation of America 15 

5.aytheon 15 

River Edge, N. J 26 

Rogge, O. John l 22 

Testimony of 18-19 

Rosenberg children 22 

Rosenberg espionage ring 20-23, 27, 29-31, 59 

Rosenberg, Ethel 22, 43 

Rosenberg, Julius 11, 16, 17, 20-22, 24, 27, 29-31, 43, 55-57, 59-^1 

Rosenberg trial 61 

Russia 3, 20-22, 38 

Russian agent 21 

Russian form of government 4 

Sachs, Harry 63, 64 

Savitsky, Morris 58, 59 

Second World War 14-16, 20 

Secretary of the Army 13 

Senate, rule 2.5 36,38 

Senate rules 28 

Shoiket, Mr 59 

Signal Corps Engineering Laboratories (Fort Monmouth, N. J.) 14, 27, 30, 44 

Signal School (Fort Monmouth, N. J.) 52 

Smith, Jessica 67 

Smith, Sandy 39 

Sobell. Morton 11, 57, 59, 61 

Sockel, Albert 6 

Southern District, New York (United States District Court) 48 



IV INDEX 

Pag* 

Soviet Union _ 60 

Sperry Gyroscoi>e (Lake Success, N. Y.) 15,21 

Squier Laboratory (Fort Monmouth, N. J.) 14, 18, 44 

State Department 21 

Surrene, Mrs 60 

Surrene, Alfred 58-60, 63 

Sussman, Nathan 56, 60, 61 

Testimony of 57-59 

Systems Section (Evans Signal Laboratory) 52 

Telecommunications Laboratories ( Nutley, N. J. ) __ 15, 23, 24, 26, 27. 31, 37-40, 42 

TransFJortation Control Depot (Air Force, Newark, N. J.) 41, 42 

Truman, President 49 

Two Hundred and Eighty National Leaders Ask Truman's Amnesty for 

Jailed Communists (published appeal) 49 

UUmann, Marcel 50 

Union County, Pa 19 

United States Constitution 36, 38, 41, 42 

United States Air Force 14, 40-42 

United States Army 6, 13, 14, 17, 40-42, 44, 52, 53, 56, 62, 63 

United States District Court (Southern District, New York) 48 

United States Government 19, 28, 29, 36, 38, 40, 45, 47-49, 57, 58, 62, 63 

United States Government Navy Air Rocket Testing Station (Lake Den- 
mark, Dover, N. J.) 40,42 

United States penitentiary (Lewisburg, Pa.) ^ 23 

United States President 49 

United States system of government 4 

Warden (Lewisburg Penitentiary) 19 

Washington, D. C 4, 5, 13 

Western Electric Co 58 

Western Union (telegram) 50 

World War II 14-16,20 

Young Communist League (YCL) 5, 11, 54, 55, 57-60, 62, 63 

o 



'< '^r/,A ^^ 



79^ 

ARMY SIGNAL CORPS— SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 



HEARINGS 

. ^ / ' " /before THB,j^,^j^y 

permmmt.su:bcommittee on 
investigatiofs'of the committee on 

GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 
UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-THIRD CONGEESS 

FIRST SESSION 

PUKSUANT TO 

S. Res. 40 



PART 2 



DECEMBER 9, 1953 



Printed for the use of the Committee on GoTernment Operations 




"DNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICB 
40558 WASHINGTON : 1954 



Boston Public Library 
Superintendent of Documents 

APR 7 - 1954 



COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 

JOSEPH R. McCarthy, Wisconsin, Chairman 

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arljansas 

MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota 

HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 

EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts 
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 

CHARLES B. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina 

Francis D. Flanagan, Chief Counsel 
Waltee L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk 



Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations 

JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman 

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dalfota 
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois 
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan 

Roy M. COhn, Chief Counsel 
Francis P. Care, Executive Director 
II 



CONTENTS 



Page 

Appendix 114 

Indes I 

Testimony of — 

Coleman, Aaron Hyman 77, 79 

Reid, Andrew J 69, 79 

EXHIBITS 

Introduced Appears 
on page on page 

4. Photostatic copy of Morton Sobell's application for employ- 
ment with Reeves Instrument Corp 88 114 

III 



AEMY SIGNAL COEPS— SUBYEKSION AND ESPIONAGE 



WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 9, 1953 

United States Senate, 
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the 

Comjuttee on Government Operations, 

Washington^ D. C. 

The subcommittee met (pursuant to S. Res. 40, agreed to Jan. 30, 
1953) at 11 : 10 a. m., in the caucus room of the Senate Office Building, 
Senator Joseph R. McCarthy (chairman) presiding. 

Present : Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin. 

Present also : Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel ; Francis P. Carr, execu- 
tive director; Thomas W. LaVenia, assistant counsel; Daniel G. 
Buckley, assistant counsel ; and Ruth Y. Watts, chief clerk. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

Mr. Counsel, who is your first witness? 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Reid, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Will Mr. Reid come forward ? 

Will you stand up and raise your right hand ? 

In the matter now in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly 
rfwear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God? 

Mr. Reid. I do ; yes, sir. 

TESTIMONY OF ANDREW J. REID 

Mr. CoHN. May we have your full name, please ? 
Mr. Reid. Andrew J. Reid. 
Mr. CoHN. How is that last name spelled ? 
Mr. Reid. R-e-i-d. 

Mr. Cohn. Where do you reside, Mr. Reid ? 
Mr. Reid. 44 Lefetra Avenue, Eatontown, N. J. 
Mr. Cohn. What is your occupation ? 
Mr. Reid. Chief agent, G-2, Fort Monmouth, K J. 
Mr. Cohn. You are the chief agent of G-2, Fort Monmouth, N. J.I 
Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Cohn. Is that correct ? 
Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Cohn. How long a period of time have you held that position? 
Mr. Reid. For 13 years, going on 13 years. 
Mr. Cohn. For over 12 years, going on 13 years? 
Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Just for the record, in case anyone does not know 
what G-2 is, that is Army Intelligence ; is that right ? 
Mr. Reid. That is right. 
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Reid, did you hold that position in 1946 ? 

69 



70 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. You did ? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. You were chief agent at that time ? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Do you know a man by the name of Aaron Coleman? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Was Mr. Coleman working at the Evans Signal Labora- 
tory in Fort Monmouth in 1946 ? 

The Chairman. Could we have the record show at this point that a 
representative of the Army has stated that up to this point they have 
not had a chance to discuss with Mr. Reid what he could safely discuss 
without violating Army security regulations. For that reason Mr. 
Adams, legal counsel for the Army, has asked for permission to sit 
beside Mr. Reid, and he has been granted that permission. 

Let me sslj that at any time if you think that Mr. Reid is violating 
any security regulations, feel perfectly free to interrupt him, will 
you? 

Mr. Adams. Yes. 

Mr. CoHN. Didyou have, as chief agent, some familiarity with the 
work going on at Evans Signal Laboratory, the general type of work? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. AVas that extremely sensitive work? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Would you say it was vital to the security of the United 
States? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr, CoHN. And that if any part of the work there was carelessly 
handled and got into the hands of the enemy, that it would be an 
extremely serious situation ? 

Mr. Reid. It could be. 

The Chairman. May I interrupt to tell the cameramen, while I 
think that you should have the same consideration as any other news 
media, too many of the witnesses object to having cameramen 
poised before them with flash bulbs waiting, and I wonder if you could 
not move back. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Reid, was Mr. Coleman the holder of an important 
position at the Evans Signal Laboratory? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Did he have access to classified material ? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. And material that was of an important nature? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, did Mr. Coleman come to your attention in 1946 
under certain circumstances? 

At any time you think Mr. Adams does not want you to say some- 
thing, just confer with him. 

(Witness conferred with Mr. Adams.) 

Mr. Reid. Counsel advises me I cannot answer that question. 

Mr. CoHN. You cannot answer that question ? 

Mr. J^EiD. Under the existing directive. 

The Chairman. Let me say I think Mr. Adams is in error on this 
point. We are not asking for the status of the case, and we are going 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 71 

into the method whereby it was found that Coleman was removing 
secret materials from the laboratories and conditions surrounding it, 
and how he was discovered to have had secret material. 

Mr. CoHN. I was going to add this was not treated by the Army as 
a case coming within the President's directive, because when we went 
up to Monmouth and examined this situation, the papers relating to 
this case were contained in the 201 file, the personnel file, which is 
specifically available to committee of Congress even under the Truman 
order. Those papers were in that file at that time, and this committee 
saw them and copied them, and this matter was not then treated by 
the Army as a case under the President's order; and I do not see why 
that order should be invoked at this point. 

The Chairman. I think you are in error on that, John, and I think 
it would be a great mistake to invoke the Truman order on that par- 
ticular information. 

Mr. CoHN. Furthermore, documents relating to this have been 
formally supplied to us by the Army. 

Mr. Adams. If this refers to the investigation by that board of 
officers, the committee already has those facts and I am in error; 
I was speaking about investigations of loyalty and security. If it is 
not about that, you may answer. 

Mr. CoHN. The inquiry, Mr. Adams, is directed to the documents 
taken by Coleman and found in his home. 

The Chairman. That list of documents has already been made 
public. 

(Witness conferred with Mr. Adams.) 

Mr. Eeid. What was the question ? 

Mr. CoHN. Could we have the question? 

(Question read by the reporter.) 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Would you tell us what those circumstances were, 
Mr. Reid? 

Mr. Reid. In September, I think it was the 27th, of 1946, Mr. Cole- 
man was brought to my attention due to the fact — — 

Mr. CoHN. I am having a little trouble hearing. 

Mr. Reid. He was brought to our attention due to the fact he had 
been stopped at the gate going into the laboratory with some classified 
documents. The guard reported that to his superior, who reported 
it to our office. 

Mr. CoHN. Was that reported to you personally ? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. What did you do after that was reported to you per- 
sonally ? 

Mr. Reid. I called Mr. Coleman into the office and I asked him for 
an explanation of it, and if he had any documents in his home. 

Mr. CoHN. That is very important. You say you asked him 
whether or not he had any other documents, any other classified docu- 
ments in his home, is that correct ? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. What did Mr. Coleman tell you when you asked him 
that question? 
^ Mr. Reid. Well, I specifically asked him the same question three 
times, and the first time he denied having any documents in his home. 



72 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. CoHN. The first time you asked him that question, he flatly 
denied having any of those documents? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. And he said he did not ? 

Mr. REm. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. Did that statement later turn out to be untrue ? 

Mr. Reid. The second time I asked him, he said maybe, and the 
third time I asked Mr. Coleman, he said, "Yes." 

Mr. CoHN. Now, after he said "Yes," that he did have other docu- 
ments in his home, did you at that time decide that you would like 
to have his apartment searched ? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you follow procedure then in asking to execute a 
consent to search? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoiiN. Did he execute that right away ? 

Mr. Reid. He did, I believe, after he talked to his lawyer. He re- 
quested permission to talk to his lawyer, and he was taken downstairs 
where he was allowed the use of a telephone, and I believe that he 
talked to his lawyer. 

He then came upstairs and agreed to sign the waiver. 

The Chairman. He knew, of course, that if he did not agree to the 
search, that you would get out a search warrant. 

Mr. Reid. He was advised of that fact, sir. 

The Chairman, It was only after he was advised of the fact that 
vou would get a search warrant that he did consent to have the search 
made, is that correct? 

Mr. Reid. Yes. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Mr. Reid, was the apartment of Mr. Coleman, or 
the home of Mr. Coleman searched by some of your agents? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir, two agents. 

Mr. CoHN. Wliat did they find ? 

Mr. Reid. They found numerous documents, in excess of 40. I am 
not sure just the exact number, but it was over 40 documents, some of 
them were classified secret; some confidential; and some restricted; 
and some unclassified. And the exact number of each classification, I 
do not know. 

Mr. CoHN. Were these documents seized by the agents and brought 
to your office ? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you examine those documents ? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you examine the information in them ? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Was that information of importance to the security of 
the country? 

Mr. Reid. I thought so. 

Mr. CoHN. Pardon me. 

Mr. Reid. I thought so. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you regard this as an extremely serious thing? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoiiN. Did you ever in the entire time you have been chief agent 
out at Fort Monmouth, encounter anything this serious, along these 
lines ? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 73 

Mr. Keid. No, I have not. 

Mr. CoHN. And, Mr. Eeid, of course, I think the record speaks for 
itself in the fact that by virtue of the fact these documents were 
found there, Mr. Coleman, had not been telling the truth when he 
denied to you that he had any of these documents at home ? 

Mr. Reid. That is right, sir. He did change his story. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Mr. Reid, did you write a report of this entire 
incident ? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you submit that report to your superiors ? 

Mr. Reid. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. And was Mr. Coleman promptly fired from Fort Mon- 
mouth for what he had done ? 

Mr. Reid. No, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. What happened? 

Mr. Reid. He was subsequently suspended for 10 days. 

Mr. CoHN. And then he was put back right where he was, is that 
right? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Mr, Reid, I want to ask you another question: 
Wlien did there first come to your attention, and when did you first 
call to the attention of your superiors, information from the FBI 
concerning Communist connections on Mr. Coleman's part? 

Mr. Reid. Now, I am not going to answer that question, on advice 
of counsel. 

Mr. CoHN. You regard that question as coming within the directive ? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Can you tell the committee the names of the people to 
whom this FBI information was given, plus the fact that Coleman 
had been found with these forty-odd documents in his home, plus the 
fact that he had lied when asked whether or not he had them there, 
and plus the fact of his request to ICitty for classified information 
which had been intercepted were a matter of record, plus the allega- 
tions concerning his membership in and participation in the Young 
Communist League and his association with Julius Rosenberg? Can 
you tell us the names of the people who were given all of that informa- 
tion, and who in the face of it, left Mr. Coleman where he was and 
never even went to the trouble of ordering a hearing to determine the 
facts and see whether or not he should remain where he was ? 

Mr. Reid. I could not answer that question. 

Mr. CoHN. You feel under the directive that you cannot answer 
that question? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Reid, one other question. We already have 
the information, but I think it should be inserted in the record : Is it 
correct that in 1951 the FBI made available to the Signal Corps Labo- 
ratories at Fort Monmouth a lengthy report pointing out that well- 
established Communist infiltration existed and the situation was poten- 
tially extremely dangerous from the standpoint of espionage ?~ This 
report further contained a list of individuals with information as to 
their Communist affiliation, and Aaron Coleman's name was on that 
list. 

(Witness conferred with Mr. Adams.) 

40558— 54— pt. 2 2 



74 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

The Chairman. Do you feel that is within the directive ? 

Mr. Reid. That is within the directive, sir. 

The Chairman. We certainly cannot order you to answer that. 
You are following advice of the counsel for the Army and I assume 
that Mr. Adams is trying hard to stay within the rules and regulations 
that are set down. But, John, let me say this, I think this is some- 
thing of extreme importance, and I do not think this committee can 
perform its function unless we have this information. We know 
that the FBI did send over a lengthy and rather vigorous report on 
Coleman in 1951. 

Mr. CoHN. The information we have, Mr. Chairman, actually the 
information which we have gathered from Army files would indicate 
that the FBI reports came in as early on Coleman as 1949. 

The Chairman. I am talking about a comprehensive report which 
you now have in your files over at Fort Monmouth, a report from the 
oureau covering not only Coleman but others. 

Now, I think it is impossible for us to conduct a thorough investiga- 
tion unless we know who saw that report and who ignored it in 1951. 
It is a situation that I assume parallels the Harry Dexter White case. 
You have the FBI report, and you apparently have an intelligence 
officer, Mr. Reid, out there, who is willing to do his job, and I think 
trying to do a good job; and some place somebody is tying someone's 
hands. 

I think it is extremely important that no one remain in this new 
administration of the Army who has been ignoring FBI reports of 
potential espionage and Communist infiltration under the old admin- 
istration. 

I am going to ask you, Mr, Adams, if you will not take this matter up 
with the Secretary of the Army, who in turn may want to take it up 
with the President, and see if that information cannot be forthcoming. 
I am not asking you to supply it this morning, and I think under the 
old Truman order of 1948 that you could not supply it. In other 
words, I think that your legal advice is correct under the orders that 
exist. 

Mr. Cohn. Mr. Reid, is it a fact that following a number of reports 
from the FBI concerning Communist connections of Coleman and 
concerning participation in Young Communist League activities by 
Coleman, and his association with Julius Rosenberg, including Julius 
Rosenberg's trial testimony, is it a fact that following those events, 
Coleman was not once, but continuously, promoted ? 

Mr. Reid. I cannot answer that, sir. 

Mr. Cohn. Do you feel that would come within the directive? 

Mr. Reid. Not only that; I would not know the information. 

Mr. CoiiN. Would you give us that information, having checked 

Mr. Cohn. Do you feel that would come within the directive ? 

Mr. Adams. He would not know. 

Mr. Cohn. He would know, because you could check the dates when 
FBI reports came up containing the information, and then you can 
check the dates of promotions. 

Mr. Reid. We are not authorized to give that information. 

Mr. Cohn. You feel that would come within the order ? 

Mr. Reid. Yes. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 75 

The Chairman. You could give the dates of his promotion and that 
would not come within the directive. Do you know the dates of his 
various promotions ? 

Mr. Reid. Yes. 

The Chairman. Without relating it to the FBI report. 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I wonder if you could give us those dates. 

Mr. Reid. I have not got them, sir. I do not know what they are 
at this time, and I would have to refer to the personnel file, Mr. 
Coleman's personnel file. 

The Chairman. Counsel has the file here. In view of the fact you 
do not remember, it would be unfair for you to rely upon your 
memory and guess. We will get the information from the files which 
we have here. 

Mr. CoHN. I see there was a promotion on July 8, 1951. 

The Chairman. Incidentally, for the record, his promotion was 
subsequent to the date of a rather comprehensive report on Mr. Cole- 
man from the FBI to the Army according to the Army records. 

I wonder if you could do this for us, and this would not violate 
any security regulations : Could you, or if you are not the man to do 
it, have someone else over there check and find out who was responsi- 
ble for his promotions, all promotions that he received, and all changes 
in his job status from 1946 up to date. 

Mr. Reid. I think that request should be submitted to the Depart- 
ment of the Army. 

Mr. Adams. I will be glad to submit to the committee a communica- 
tion outlining the status of Mr. Coleman's personnel advancements in 
the Army since 1945, if you wish it. 

The Chairman. And I assume, John, that could include without 
any violation of the regulations the names of the individuals who 
were responsible for his promotion. 

Mr. Adams. Yes. 

The Chairman. I have one other question, and this has come up 
before : You have, as you know, a board of 20 civilians over there in 
the Pentagon who are the final appeal board, and we have had the 
complaint from some of the people at Monmouth who were responsi- 
ble for security that when a man was suspended, at least they would 
get by the first Army loyalty board, which apparently was difficult, 
and that the first Army loyalty board would order his discharge. 
Then the case would go to the old board in the Pentagon, and there 
were some 35 cases, and my figures may be off, and you would know, 
but there were some 35 cases that were found unfit because of Commu- 
nist activities, and all except 2 were ordered reinstated. 

As the previous commanding officer told us in executive session, 
he said, "With that experience, we just gave up." He said, "We 
would pick the rottenest apples in the barrel and we would find them 
unfit, and we would get through a first Army board, which," as he 
said, "was very liberally inclined toward the employee." But even 
then I am not sure if the figures are correct. It was his estimate 
that out of 35 cases that were found unfit, all because of Communist 
activities and connections, 33 were ordered reinstated and their back 
pay paid to them. 



76 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

I think for that reason it is important that this subcommittee be 
furnished the names of the members of the loyalty board who passed 
upon Mr. Coleman's case and ordered him reinstated. 

Mr. CoHN. I think along those very lines, the very point you make, 
we have been able to place under subpena one of those persons who 
was suspended and the suspension upheld by the regional board, and 
then he was ordered reinstated by the Secretary's screening board, 
and we have subpenaed him, and I think he will be in public session 
this week, and I think that will present a very grapliic example of the 
way in which things were run over there. 

The Chaibman. Also, Mr. Adams, as well as being furnished the 
names of those who passed upon Coleman's case, I would like to know 
how many of the men who were on that loyalty board under the 
previous administration clearly doing a job far beyond words, how 
many of them still are acting as the loyalty board. 

Now, I hope the Army approves our request for this information. 
We can obviously get it, but it will be very difficult if we have to 
subpena all of the members of the board and find out when they were 
appointed. 

Mr. Adams. We can give you the names of the members of the 
screening board, and we will give you the names of the members of 
the board and the dates on which they have served. We may not, 
under existing policy, give you the names of the members of the board 
who sat on particular panels which considered any particular case. 
So we will be restricted by that limitation. 

The Chairman. We will have to call all of the members of the 
board and put them under oath, and may I say, John, and this is not 
criticism of you; I think that you have tried to cooperate with this 
committee fully, and I think Mr. Stevens has. I think it is ridiculous 
beyond words to follow the old Truman order to the effect a congres- 
sional committee cannot get the names of a board who cleared men 
with clear-cut Communist connections, and I am not referring to the 
Coleman case, but to the situation in general. 

We should knoAv what the pattern is, whether it is the same indi- 
viduals who have been clearing individuals with Communist back- 
grounds, and so I am going to ask you to give us a report on it, and 
I am going to ask you to have Mr. Stevens take that up with the 
President. I do not think the President will take the attitude that 
he wants to hide any members of the old administration who, in turn, 
hide Communists; and I am sure that is not Eisenhower's intention, 
and I am sure he will give us those names. 

Ifyou will furnish us a report on this problem, we will appreciate 
it. dould you do that within the next week or so ? 

Mr. Adams. Yes. 

The Chairman. Are there any more questions of this witness? 

Mr. CoHN. No. 

The Chairman. We will return to Mr. Reid, and we will clear 
up the matter of questions he can and cannot answer and his opinion 
of the present regulation. 

Mr. Reid, I am now going to ask you some general questions not 
having to do with any specific individual, and I believe you and I 
agree that where I ask you general questions about the security in 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 77 

general, as long as we do not apply it to a particular individual, 
you will be able to answer those questions ; is that right ? 

Mr. Reed. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You have been the security officer at Fort Mon- 
mouth for how many years now ? 

Mr. Reid. About 121^ years, sir. Change it from security to 
intelligence. 

The Chairman. I may say, for your benefit, to keep the record 
clear, so this will not appear as an attempt to criticize you, I think 
the files indicate that you and the FBI have done a good job, the fault 
is not at your level, it is at the level of those who refuse to recognize 
the material that you dig up. 

Can I ask you this question : Over that 13-year period of time have 
you repeatedly furnished information on individuals whom you con- 
sidered very dangerous to the security of this country and discovered 
that they were kept on there year after year even after you had 
supplied the complete facts on them? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I hope, Mr. Reid, we can have the rule changed so 
we can go into the individual cases, but obviously you are tied down 
today and you cannot go into those questions under the present regu- 
lations. So we will not ask you about any particular individual. 
1 want to thank you very much for your appearance here. 

I have just one other question, Mr. Reid. Would you say there 
has existed for a long period of time a situation that is dangerous to 
the security of this Nation from the standpoint of potential espionage ? 

Mr. Reid. I do not think that I could answer that, sir. 

The Chairman. That will be all. 

Mr. Coleman, will you take the stand ? 

- i. 

TESTIMONY OF AARON HYMAN COLEMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 
COUNSEL, RICHAED P. GREEN, OF ELIZABETH, N. J.)--Recalled 

The Chairman. Mr. Coleman, before we start asking you questions, 
if you care to, you may comment at as great length as you care to on 
the testimony that has been heard here in regard to your activities; 
and if not, we will proceed to ask you some questions. 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Coleman. I would like to comment on the evidence that has 
been given this morning about documents which were found in my 
apartment in 1946. 

The circumstances surrounding that, to the best of my recollection, 
are as follows: About September, the end of September of 1946, I 
was leaving the laboratories with a registration card for the Brooklyn 
Polytechnic Institute. On my way out of the parking lot I was 
stopped by the guard and asked what the card was. I showed it to 
him, and he asked me for my name and badge number. 

That afternoon I was escorted to Mr. Reid's office, as he described. 

The Chairman. May I interrupt as you go along, if you do not mind. 
At the time the guard stopped you, is it a fact that you were carrying 
some material under your coat and it dropped out, and he saw it? 

Mr. Coleman. I had this pink registration card which was not sup- 
posed to be folded. I carried it in my coat pocket. 



78 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

The Chairman. And it dropped out and he saw it? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir, I believe what I did, I went to the parking 
lot, and I put it on the seat of the car, and the guard apparently saw 
me do that, and he wondered what it was, and I showed it to him, and 
he took my name and badge number. 

The Chairman. Was there an occasion on which you were going 
out the gate with classified material under your coat? 

Mr. Coleman. I have no recollection. 

The Chairman. And the material dropped on the ground and the 
guard then took you to Mr. Reid's office? Did that happen? 

Mr. Coleman. I have no recollection of such an incident. 

The Chairman. If it did happen, you would remember it, would 
you not? 

Mr. Coleman. I think so. 

The Chairman. Do you think so? It would not be an everyday 
occurrence if you were carrying classified material from a secret radar 
laboratory, under your coat, and it dropped out and the guard wit- 
nessed the event and picked you up? You would not forget that, 
would you ? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not think I would, no. 

The Chairman. You do not think you would ? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not think so. 

The Chairman. Do you at this time, is there any doubt in your 
mind? 

Mr. Coleman. I am not sure I understand. Doubt about what? 

The Chairman. About whether you would remember an occurrence 
of that kind. 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

The Chairman. I may say, Mr. Coleman, for your benefit, we have 
found so many discrepancies in your testimony already that this is 
going to be referred to the Attorney General at least on the ground of 
perjury and maybe on other grounds, and for that reason, take your 
time on these questions ; and I do not want you at any future time to 
make the claim that you did not understand the question and that you 
were confused, that you were trapped into anything. It is a very 
simple question. 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Coleman. I do not have any doubts. 

The Chairman. You say you had no classified material on you that 
particular day ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

The CiiAuiMAN. You say you had no classified material ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you mean yes, you did not ? 

Mr. Coleman. I did not have any classified material. 

The Chairman. Then you were taken to Mr. Reid's office? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you were asked about whether or not you were 
carrying classified material out of the plant? 

Mr. Coleman. I was asked to describe the material. 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Coleman. He asked me whether I was carrying classified ma- 
terial out at that time, and I told him that I was carrying out this 
pink registration card. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 79^ 

The Chairman. Was that the only material that you had ? I would 
suggest that you think very carefully before you answer. Was that 
the only material you were carrying out of the radar lab that day ? 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Coleman. To the best of my memory today, that is the only 
material that I was carrying with me at that time. 

The Chairman. It was not classified ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir, it was not classified. 

The Chairman. Mr. Reid, could I bother you again, I wonder. 

TESTIMONY OP ANDREW J. REID— Recalled 

The Chairman. I have just one question. Is it correct on the day 
Mr. Coleman was picked up by the guard, it was reported to you he 
had classified material in his possession ? 

Mr. Reid. I cannot remember, sir, whether it was or not ; I do not 
remember that. 

The Chairman. Would your files show that? 

Mr. Rsm. It might, sir, but I do not know. 

The Chairman. Would you check your files for us on that? 

Mr. Reid. Yes, sir, I will be glad to do that. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. 

TESTIMONY OF AARON HYMAN COLEMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 
COUNSEL, RICHARD P. GREEN, OP ELIZABETH, N. J.)— Recalled 

The Chairman. They said they took you to Mr. Reid's office because 
you had an unclassified registration card in your possession ? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not know for what reason they took me, but I 
believe it was because of this incident. 

The Chairman. And you had a perfect right to take this registra- 
tion card out, did you not ? 

Mr. Coleman. I think so, yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you say because you folded this card they 
picked you up ? 

Mr. Coleman. I say I do not know why they picked me up, but 
the guard wanted to know what this card was, and I showed it to 
him, and it is my understanding that the guard was not permitted to 
make an evaluation of the incident, and he was required to report 
anything that he had noticed. 

The Chairman. If the guard caught anyone taking classified mate- 
rial out of the plant, it was his job to report that to the G-2 ? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not know what instructions he had, and I am 
assuming that he reported whatever he thought was pertinent. 

The Chairman. On all of the other occasions when you removed 
classified material from the plant, did you display it to the guard 
as you left the gate ? 

Mr. Coleman. Did I display what to the guard ? 

The Chairman. The various pieces of classified material that were 
picked up when Army Intelligence searched your apartment. 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Coleman. Most of the time I displayed the material, but 
sometimes the guard was only interested in whether or not I had a 



80 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

pass authorizing me to remove classified material, and they sometimes 
did not examine all of the material themselves. 

The Chairman. Now, we have had you before the committee in 
executive session for a considerable period of time, and as I recall, 
the first time you testified you said that you had a pass to take each 
of the secret documents out of the plant which you took out. The 
second time you appeared, as I recall, you said you did not mean a 
pass to take the material out of the plant, but you were talking about 
a pass which you signed within the plant when you received material 
within the plant. 

Will you clarify for us today now this question of whether or not 
you had a pass to remove all of those secret documents from the plant 
or whether when you refer to a pass you are referring to an interplant 
pass? 

Mr. Coleman. To the best of my recollection, there were three ways 
by which an individual could remove material with authorization 
from the laboratories. One method was a pass which was signed 
either by the Director or the Adjutant, which was a white pass, a 
small card that you carried in your wallet. That authorized you to 
remove classified material, and the nature and classification was stated 
on the pass. 

The Chairman. You say there was a pass which not only gave you 
access to classified material, but the pass allowed you to remove from 
the radar laboratories classified material? 

Mr. Coleman. I believe this pass specifically authorized you to re- 
move classified material. 

The Chairman. Is it your testimony today under oath there was 
in existence at Fort Monmouth a pass which allowed the employees 
to remove or take away from the laboratories secret material ? 

Mr. Coleman. Certain employees, yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And did you have such a pass ? 

Mr. CoLE3iAN. I had such a pass. 

The Chairman. And if you had that pass, you did not have to ac- 
count to anyone for the removal of the secret material ? 

Mr. Coleman. Well, I wanted to tell you about the other method of 
removing it. 

The Chairman. Tell us this method first. 

Mr. Coleman. You had to show the guard what you had, and he 
would look at your pass, and see if it was properly signed and see what 
the nature of the classification was, and sometimes he would check to 
see that you did not exceed that classification. 

The Chairman. Now, I do not quite understand this. We have 
a list here of secret documents which were removed having to do with 
radar and radar defenses, and you say j^ou got by the guard with 
all of those, but the day you took out an unclassified card or regis- 
tration card, for some reason or other he picked you up then and took 
you to the security office. I am just curious to know how that could 
happen. I may say it does not jibe with the stories we have heard 
from others. You may consult counsel. 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

The Chairman. While Mr. Coleman is consulting with counsel, we 
will read into the record the definition of secret which is followed at 
Fort Monmouth : 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 81 

Information and material, the unauthorized disclosure of which would en- 
danger national security, cause serious injury to the interests or prestige of 
the Nation, or would be of great advantage to a foreign nation, shall be classified 
"Secret." 

The following examples are then given of secret material : 

(a) Particulars of operations in progress. 

(b) Plans or particulars of operations, or war plans with necessary enclosures 
thereto, not included under "Top Secret." 

(c) Instructions regarding the employment of important new munitions of 
war, including scientific and technical developments. 

(d) Important improvements to existing munitions of war until accepted for 
service use including scientific and technical developments. 

(e) Information relating to new material (matter) including material (mat- 
ter) of the type described in 1 above. 

(f ) Information of the type described in 1 above concerning specific quantities 
of war reserves. 

(g) Development prospects of the type described in 1 above. 

Mr. Reporter, this is rather lengthy, and we will give it to the re- 
porter to copy. You will copy page 42 down to the end of the defini- 
tion of "Secret." 

(It is as follows) : 

(h) Information of enemy or potential enemy material or other material, 
procedure, dispositions, and activities, the value of which depends upon con- 
cealing the fact that we possess it. 

(i) Reports of operations containing information of vital interest to the enemy. 

(j) Vital military information on important defenses. 

(k) Adverse reports on general morale affecting major operations. 

(1) Communication intelligence information and important communication 
security devices and material of the type described in 1 above. 

(m) Certain new or specialized techniques or methods to be used in future 
operations. The identity and composition of units, wherever located, which 
are especially intended for employment of such techniques or methods. 

(n) Information indicating the strength of our troops, air and naval forces, 
identity or composition of units or quantity of specific items of equipment per- 
taining thereto in active theaters of operation, except that mailing addresses 
will include organizational designations. 

(o) Photographs, negatives, photostats, diagrams, or models of secret matter. 

(p) Certain compilations of data or items which individually may be clas- 
sified "Confidential" or lower when the aggregate of the information warrants 
the higher classification. 

The Chairman. Do you recall the question ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. 

I would like to explain that, if j^ou will permit. That is, the 
circumstances require a little detailed elaboration. First of all, all 
of the documents listed there are not secret; some were unclassified, 
and some were marked "Restricted," and some were marked "Confi- 
dential," and some were marked "Secret." 

Not all of them were removed from the laboratories. Some were 
lemoved from the laboratories with 1 of the 3 methods I was trying 
to describe before. Some I received while in the Marine Corps, and 
some were personal notes of technical data of an unclassified nature 
that I had received elsewhere, which I had obtained as an engineer 
trying to do my job. 

The Chairman. Let us stick to those that you removed from the 
i-adar laboratories. Is it your testimony now, Mr. Coleman — this is 
the third time you have testified now — and the first time you said you 
signed a pass for everything, and you explained you would sign it 
and someone else would countersign the pass for the specific item. 

40558K-54— pt. 2 3 



82 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

And the next time you appeared before us you said you did not mean 
you signed a pass when the material was taken from the building on 
all occasions and you were referring to a pass signed within the 
laboratory; when you would get a secret document from someone 
else, you would give him a receipt for it, and that is what you meant 
by a pass. 

Is it your testimony today, now, there is a third method, that at 
times you took the material from the building merely by displaying 
it to the guard and showing him a pass which you say you had which 
gave you permission to take secret material from the building? 

Mr. Coleman. There are four items that you are referring to, 
Senator, and I believe it will help us both if you would permit me to 
finish, and I think you will have the full facts then. 

The Chairman. We will let you finish, but will you answer this 
question: Is it your testimony now on certain occasions you took 
secret material from the laboratories and you did not sign a pass 
for that specific receipt and failed to receive a pass for that specific 
document, you merely displayed the secret document to the guard 
at the gate and showed him the general pass which you had which 
you say allowed you to take secret material out, is that correct? 

Mr. Coleman. I believe at certain times in the past 10 or 15 years 
that was possible. At other times you needed a "whiz" pass which 
specified the specific documents and was countersigned by your 
superiors. 

The Chairman. Do you claim now you were violating no part of 
the Espionage Act by removing the secret material and keeping it in 
your apartment? Do you claim that you were following all of the 
rules and regulations ? 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Coleman : May I answer that question. Senator ? 

I claim I was not violating the Espionage Act, but I may have been 
violating Army regulations on safeguarding military information. 

The Chairman. Mr. Eeid told you you had no right to keep secret 
material in your apartment, did he not ? 

Mr. Coleman. The offense of which I was guilty was carelessness 
in safeguarding classified material by not having it in a three-combina- 
tion lock safe and by failing to downgrade material which had been 
declassified. 

The Chairman. You mean you had the right to downgrade 
material ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir, I did not. I could have taken or initiated 
action to have someone else downgrade it oflEicially. 

The Chairman. Did you tell Mr. Reid, the first time he asked you, 
you had no classified material in your apartment? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not recollect the details of that conversation. 
I know that in the same conversation, at the end of the conversation, I 
stated that I had documents at my home, some of which might be 
classified. 

The Chairman. Let us get this straight, and we may have to stay 
here a long time, Mr. Coleman, and we will try and get the facts 
straight. Mr. Reid has positively testified that you denied having 
the material in your apartment. After it was made clear to you 
a search warrant would be obtained, then you consented to have 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 83 

your apartment searched. Now, you know when you were picked up 
by the guard and taken to the intelligence office ; you know, Mr. Cole- 
man, whether or not you denied that you had secret documents at 
your home. That is not an everyday occurrence in your life, 

Mr. Coleman. Are you asking me a question ? 

The CiLzURMAN. Yes. 

Mr. Coleman. "VVliat is the question? I am not sure I under- 
stand it. 

The Chairman. Is it your testimony under oath today that you 
do not know whether or not you denied to the Army Intelligence officer, 
Mr. Reid, you had been removing secret documents and keeping them 
in your home and you had some in your home at that time ? 

Mr. Coleman. The only recollection I have is that at the end of 
this interview I was asked did I have any classified documents at 
iny home, and I said, "Yes, I did." 

The Chairman. You do not remember whether you first denied it ? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not remember the details of that discussion 
with Mr. Reid. 

The Chairman. Now, if you felt you had a right to take the 
secret documents out, there would be no reason for you to lie to Mr. 
Reid, would there be ? You would pull out your pass and say, "Here, 
Mr. Reid, is my pass, and I have a right to take these documents home, 
and of course I have got them there." 

Mr. Coleman. I do not recollect Mr. Reid asking me any further 
questions after I told him that I had classified documents at home. I 
do not remember. My recollection is that after I told him I had 
classified documents at home, he asked me to go with his agents 
downstairs. 

The Chairman. Now, you said this came at the end of the interview, 
that you told him you had classified documents. Did it come after 
you talked to your lawyer or before ? 

Mr. Coleman. I never talked to my lawyer at any time in that 
entire incident. I had no lawyer, and I never consulted a lawyer on 
this matter. 

The Chairman. Mr. Reid said you went downstairs and phoned. 
Who did you phone ? 

Mr. Coleman. I phoned one of my supervisors. 

The Chairman. What was his name ? 

Mr. Coleman. Mr. Fister. 

The Chairman. How do you spell that ? 

Mr. Coleman. F-i-s-t-e-r. 

The Chairman. Did you ask him whether or not you should allow 
your apartment to be searched ? 

Mr. Coleman. I asked him for his advice in the matter. 

The Chairman. Whether or not you should allow your apartment 
to be searched? 

Mr. Coleman. I asked him what should I do, and I think the 
general tenor, as I remember, was what should I do. 

The Chairman. Let us just run over a few of these documents that 
you removed. First, is it your testimony you were removing the 
documents and taking them home only for the purpose of studying 
so you would be a more efficient employee ? 

Mr. Coleman. I was removing them in order to work on my project 
to which I had been assigned. 



84 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

The Chairman. What was the project to which you had been 
assigned ? 

Mr, Coleman. It is a classified project. 

The Chairman. Tell us what the project was. 

Mr. Coleman. I would like to ask Mr. Adams as to what I can say 
in this regard, Senator. I am not sure. 

The Chairman. You can advise with your lawyer, and you are 
ordered to tell us what the project was. You claim that you were 
using all of these documents in connection with that project, and we 
want to know what the project was and see whether your testimony 
is true or not. 

Mr. Green. May I say I am not 

The Chairman. You may say nothing. You can talk to your client 
and we will follow the rules of this committee. The rule voted by 
the committee unanimously is the rule not to hear from counsel, and 
he can advise with his client whenever he cares to, and we will hear 
from your client at any length he cares to be heard. 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Coleman. I do not state that I was using all of those docu- 
ments in connection with that project. Some of the documents were 
personal notes which were not directly concerned with that project. I 
I can tell you 

The Chairman. Let us narrow this down. You say some of the 
documents were personal notes. How about the documents that were 
not personal notes, the other documents removed ? Were you remov- 
ing those in connection with the project upon which a'ou were work- 
ing, all of them, all of the documents ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How about the personal notes which you made 
from other secret documents and took home ? You say you were not 
using those in connection with your project? Why did you copy 
from secret documents and take the notes home if you were not using 
them in connection with your work ? 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 
-■' Mr. Coleman. I do not think they were copied from secret docu- 
ments. There is one item there which I copied from a report, and I 
do not believe the nature of the material that I copied was classified. 

The Chairman. Let us get the answer. First you said you were 
using these documents in connection with a project. Now you say 
not all of them. What percentage of the forty-odd documents were 
you using in connection with your work? In other words, why did 
you remove them, if you were not using them in connection with your 
work ? 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Coleman. I could only guess, sir. 

The Chairman. You can only guess why you stole secrets from 
the radar laboratories? 

Mr. Coleman. I am sorry, sir, but I did not steal. 

The Chairman. Strike the word "stole." You can only guess at 
why you took these secret documents from the laboratories ? 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Coi^MAN. I can only guess at the percentage of the documents 
which I was using directly on my project. 

The Chairman. All right. Guess then. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 85 

Mr. Coleman. 30 to 50 percent. 

The Chairman. How about the other 50 to 70 percent ? Why did 
you remove those from the radar Lib ? , 

Mr. Coleman. I do not believe I removed those. Those were per- 
sonal notes which I had used in connection with my wartime work, 
or I had used in connection with my Marine radar work. 

The Chairman. Then is it your testimony all of the docu- 
ments which you removed were used in connection with your work ? 
I have difficulty understanding. You say that from 30 to 50 per- 
cent of the documents were used in connection with your work. Then 
I say to you, "How about the other 50 to 70 percent which were not 
used in connection with your work?" You come back with the an- 
swer, "I don't believe I removed them." So let us narrow this down 
and let us stick to the ones you removed from the radar laboratories. 
What percentage of those documents were you using in connection 
with your work i 

Mr. Coleman. To the best of my recollection, 7 years after the 
incident, I believe I was using them all in one way or another in con- 
nection with my work. Since the nature of my project was of such 
a broad and complex nature, I was using a wide variety of informa- 
tion, and it was a complex project, and I had been in the Marine 
Corps for 2 years, and I had been away from the field, and I was 
attempting to do my job as conscientiously as I could, and so I tried 
to develop the background necessary to prosecute the project well. 

The Chaikman. Were the documents which you had in your apart- 
ment sufficiently comprehensive so that if Communist Russia had ob- 
tained copies she would have had a rather complete picture of our 
radar setup in this country, the progress we had made in developing 
radar ? 

You do not have to consult your lawyer on that. He does not know. 
You know. You can consult with him if you care to. 

Mr. Coleman. I believe that it would give anybody a picture of our 
wartime radar work insofar as the ground radar was concerned. I 
do not know how complete a picture it would give them, but it was 
wartime radar work. And to that I would like to point out that of 
all of those documents, only two were actually currently classified at 
the time. 

The Chairman. Which two ? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not know which two. 

Mr. CoiiN. How many were classified at the time you took them? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not know. 

Mr. CoHN. That is the question. You can take documents that are 
secret documents and hold on to them for 10 years, and a lot can hap- 
pen in 10 years, and when you come up with them 10 years later, you 
can say that these are no longer classified, 3 years ago they were un- 
classified or declassified. The important thing is when you took them, 
when they came into your possession, were they classified or not, and 
you do not contend that only two were classified when they came into 
your possession? 

Mr. Coleman. I contend that only two at the time, September of 
1946, were actually classified. 

Mr. CoHN. At the time you were caught with them, but how about 
the time you took them and you had them in your apartment and you 



86 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

could do whatever a'ou wanted; how many were classified during that 
period ? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not know. 

The Chairman. Is it your testimony under oath today that you 
know that only two of these documents w^ere still classified secret at the 
time your apartment was searched? Is that your testimony? Do 
you know that yourself ? 

Mr. Coleman. Now, today? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Coleman. No, I do not know that. I was told that in my 
reprimand, that only two of them were classified as confidential. 

The Chairman. Have you a copy of your reprimand here ? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not have it. I do not have a copy of my 
reprimand. 

The Chairman. You say that is written out in your reprimand? 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

The Chairman. I have seen your reprimand, you see. And is it 
your testimony that in your reprimand only two were classified secret? 

Mr. Coleman. Confidential ; two of which are currently classified 
as confidential was stated in the reprimand. 

The Chairman. And none secret ? You say none were classified as 
secret ? 

Mr. Coleman. Well, I am quoting the reprimand. 

The Chairman. You say none were classified secret ? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not know, sir. 

The Chairman. "What were the stamps on the document ? Do you 
know how many were stamped secret? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not know from memory how many were marked 
secret. 

The Chairman. At the executive session you were asked the same 
question you were asked today, whether or not, if these documents 
were all available to Communist Russia, it would have brought her 
up to date on our development of radar, and your answer was that 
perhaps not to date because some of the documents were a bit old, and 
you said it would have brought her within 6 months of being com- 
pletely up to date. Is that your testimony today ? 

Mr. Coleman. My testimony today? 

The Chaiman. Do you want to change that ? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not recollect exactly what I said. To the best 
of m^ knowledge, and this is a matter of judgment, and it is only my 
opinion, they would cover a picture, and I do not knoAV how complete, 
of ground radar activities in 1943 or maybe 1944. This is a matter of 
judgment, and I am in no position to say how complete or actually what 
exact year. 

The Chairman. You say now instead of bringing them within 6 
months of being up to date, it would have brought them within 2 or 
3 years of being up to date, is that correct ? 

Mr. Coleman. I cannot pin it down except to say wartime. I am 
saying this as a matter of judgment, and I am only trying to express 
an opinion which I think is a technical opinion. 

The Chairman. What was the project you were working on ? 

Mr. Coleman. As Mr. Cohn described yesterday, development of 
antiaircraft systems. 

The Chairman. You were doing what? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 87 

Mr. Coleman. Development of antiaircraft systems. 

The Chairman. Wliat is the number of the project you were work- 
ing on ? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not know if I can reveal that. 

Mr. CoHN. Could you write the number on a piece of paper and 
hand it up to us, and I will show it to Mr. Adams ? 

Mr. Coleman. I will give the number to Mr. Adams. 

Mr. CoHN. I do not want you to give us the number if you feel it is 
classified. 

The Chairman. How many people had access to your apartment 
while these documents were there? 

Mr. Coleman. My roomate, as far as I know, had access to my 
apartment. 

The Chairman. What was his name? 

Mr. Coleman. Jack Okun. 

The Chairman. Jack Okun? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. He had been suspended on loyalty grounds, too? 

Mr. Coleman. He was suspended in 1949. 

The Chairman. Later reinstated? 

Mr. Coleman. He was later reinstated. 

The Chairman. Immediately resigned after his reinstatement? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not think so, and I think he resigned about 6 
months or a year after, and I am not sure of the exact dates. 

The Chahuman. Did you know a Mr. Levitsky? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir, I did not. 

Mr. CoHN. On the question of 

Mr. Green. Excuse me, Mr. Cohn. 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Coleman. Could I add an additional statement? To my 
knowledge Mr. Okun resigned because the Watson Laboratory to 
which he was then assigned was in the process of moving to Rome, 
N. Y. ; and therefore he did not want to leave the area, and so he 
resigned. 

Mr. CoHN. There was no admission of guilt implicit in his resig- 
nation ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes. 

Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Coleman, we have talked about Mr. Okun, 
and I would like to ask you this : Did you know Morton Sobell, the 
convicted atom spy ? I believe his involvement was not with atomic 
energy but it was with radar. 

Mr. Coleman. I was a classmate, and then I also had chance meet- 
ings with him at three places, General Electric Co., Reeves Instru- 
ment Co., and also at Evans Signal Laboratory. 

Mr. Cohn. Is that the extent of your association with him? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Cohn. Is it not a fact Mr. Sobell was a good friend of yours ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir, he was not. 

Mr. Cohn. Well, is it not a fact that as late as the year 1947 Mr. 
Sobell gave you as one of his three personal references for employ- 
ment on classified Government work ? 

Mr. Coleman. I only learned that fact when it was reported in my 
charges. If you will permit me, I would like to explain it. Will you 
you permit me ? 



88 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Coiix. As far as I am concerned, you can submit any explana- 
tion von care to make. 

Mr. CoLEMAx. Will you permit me to make a complete explanation? 

I met Morton Sobell for the first time after college, at General 
Electric Co. in late 1946 or early 1947, and it was a chance meeting 
which occurred when I went with some other individual from the 
Signal Corps to General Electric Co., and we met him there. The 
next I heard about him was I was told by a member of the Reeves 
Instrument Corp. that he had been hired to work there. I think I 
met him at Reeves about the same time. I believe he may have used 
my name as a reference because he knew that I was the Government 
I^roject engineer on an important project of the contractor, namely, 
Reeves Instrument Corp. 

I also know that sometime around that time. First Army sent me a 
security questionnaire. 

Mr. CoiiN. Indeed they did, and you sent word back that you 
thought he was a good loj^al American. 

Mr. Coleman, I answered it to the best of my ability. At that time 
I had no derogatory information on him, and I did not know he was a, 
Communist or 

Mr. ConN. Mr. Coleman, you were 1 of the 8 people who v/ere per- 
sonal reference for Mr. Morton Sobell in obtaining a position with 
Reeves. On the face of the application there is a statement that he 
will have access to classified material, and he did have access, as you 
know, thereafter, and this is 1947, well after the war, to a considerable 
amount of classified material on Signal Corps work. You were 1 of 
his 3 references on that. 

And, Mr. Chairman, I would ask that there be received in evidence 
a photostatic copy of Sobell's application for employment with Reeves, 
and showing Mr. Coleman's name as 1 of the 3 references. 

The Chairman, It will be received. 

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 4" and will be 
found in the appendix on p. 114.) 

The Chairman. I do not understand the witness's testimony. He 
said he did not learn he had been used as a reference until letters of 
charges were filed on him. He tells us now that he wrote a letter of 
recommendation. Would you care to reconcile those statements? 

Mr, Coleman, I did not state I wrote a letter of recommendation. 
I was sent a security questionnaire by First Army, which asked me to 
furnish whatever information I had about hiuL I felt it was my duty 
to furnish whatever I knew. 

Mr, Coiin, The reason it was sent to you, what is the reason they 
sent you that questionnaire, and why were you asked about Sobell ? 
Do you think they just picked your name out of a hat? 

Mr, Coleman, Apparently because he listed my name. 

Mr. CoHN. He listed your name as a reference? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr, CoHN. And they made inquiries to find out what you knew 
about him ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir, 

Mr, Cohn. And whether or not he was a good security risk and 
whether or not they ought to hire him? 

Mr, Coleman, Yes, sir. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 89 

Mr. CoHN. Because the application states on its face he would have 
access to classified material, and the inquiry came not from the private 
company with which he was seeking employment, but from the Army, 
is that right? 

Mr. Coleman. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. And did you not reply then that you had known Mr. 
Sobell for a period of 12 years and that you knew him to be a good 
loyal American ? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not recall what I replied about the 12-year 
period. I knew I had known him in college, which started in 1936 or 
1937, but I did not see him after college until this chance meeting at 
General Electric Co. in 1947. 

As far as the question about his loyalty, since I did not have any 
unfavorable information, any intimation, or anything that might 
make me suspicious, I answered what was natural, and I had no 
doubts at that time about his loyalty. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you ever attend any meetings of the Young Com- 
munist League with Sobell? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you ever attend any meetings of the Young Com- 
munist League with Julius Kosenberg? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. When? 

Mr. Coleman. One meeting in 1937, about 1937. 

Mr. CoHN. Who took you to that meeting of the Young Com- 
munist League ? 

Mr. Coleman. Rosenberg. 

Mr. CoHN. How well did you know Rosenberg ? 

Mr. Coleman. He was a classmate of mine, and I never saw him 
at his home ; and he never visited my home, and I did not see him after 
the graduation, and I did not correspond with him after graduation. 

Mr. CoHN. Would you care to comment — you say you did not see 
him after graduation — and would vou care to comment on Mr. Rosen- 
berg's testimony at his own trial that j^ou were one of his acquaintance? 
down at Fort Monmouth when you were there and when he was there ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, I would. 

Mr. CoHN. I would be very happy to have you comment. 

Mr. Coleman. Would you permit me to make a complete statement ? 

Mr. Cohn. Wliy, of course, anything you want to say. 

Mr. Coleman. As far as I know, Rosenberg never worked at Fort 
Monmouth. I believe he was an inspector and that inspectors were 
assigned temporarily to Fort Monmouth in the fall or in the latter half 
of 1940, for orientation courses, and then they were sent out on their 
inspection duties. This is to the best of my knowledge from what I 
have been able to learn from others. 

Mr. Cohn. I don't know if you ^ot the question. The question is 
whether or not Rosenberg was telling the truth or whether you are 
telling the truth. Did you see him at Fort Monmouth ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir ; I did not see him at Fort Monmouth. 

Mr. Cohn. He was down at Fort Monmouth on a number of occa- 
sions, was he not, when he was an inspector for the Signal Corps 
inspection agency ? 

40558^54 — pt. 2 4 



90 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Coleman. I only have been told that he might have been down 
there in the latter half of 1940 for an extended period, and I don't know 
of any other occasions. 

Mr. CoHN. Were you telling the truth or was Rosenberg? 

Mr. Coleman. I am telling the truth. 

Mr. CoHN. And you say that what Rosenberg said when he was on 
the stand is untrue, is that right? 

Mr. Coleman. I am trying to explain it, if you will let me. 

Mr. CoHN. I am sorry. 

Mr. Coleman. If you will let me finish, I am trying to explain it. 

Mr. CoHN. I wish you would address yourself to that point. 

Mr. Coleman. I am trying to do it. I want to get all of the facts 
on the record. 

Mr. CoHN. So do we. And now let us get that point now of 
Rosenberg's testimony. 

Mr. Coleman. That is what I am trying to do. Since that was 
news to me when I heard it yesterday. He probably was at Mon- 
mouth, and I have been led to believe, for several weeks on orienta- 
tion, and he was being given orientation as an inspector, as many 
others, hundreds, I think, were, in the latter half of 1940. 

I had been living in Long Branch with four other people for quite 
some time, since 1939, and I had been reasonably well known to tnese 
people and others. He may have come into the area and he may have 
learned that I was there, but I did not see him. Now, if he came, and 
if he was there for orientation in the latter half of 1940, I could not 
have seen him because I was in Panama from July of 1940 to late 
November. 

Mr. CoHN. Were you in Panama in December of 1940? 

Mr. Coleman. I returned in the late 1940, and I was on the way 
back, and I don't know exactly the date I landed, whether it was 
December or November 29, or what it was. You might have better 
information. 

Mr. CoHN. Were you in Panama from 1940 to 1945 at various times 
when Rosenberg's duties as a Signal Corps inspector brought him to 
Fort Monmouth? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. You were at Fort Monmouth, were you not ? 

Mr. Coleman. I was in Panama from July to late November 1940. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, your explanation then is what Mr. Rosenberg must 
have said was that he — and I am not citing Mr. Rosenberg as a person 
worthy of credibility ; I am citing him as a person who here had no 
motive whatsoever to misrepresent on something that at that time was 
at best purely incidental to the issue at hand — now, your explanation 
is, well, he must have been talking about the fact that he had heard 
you were down there. That was not the testimony. The testimony 
was: 

Can you give us the names of classmates of yours with whom you had social 
01- business relations after your graduation? 

The first name on the list is Mr. Aaron Coleman, "who, subsequent 
to graduation, I met at Fort Monmouth when I was assigned there." 

Mr. Coleman. I deny that. He did not meet me at Fort Monmouth. 

Mr. Cohn. Do you deny Mr. Sussman's testimony you were a mem- 
ber of the Young Communist League? 

Mr. Coleman. I do. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 91 

Mr. CoHN. And you say, however, that Mr. Eosenberg whom you 
hardly knew asked you to go to a meeting of the Young Communist 
League, and you went to the meeting of the Young Communist 

League ? 

Mr. Coleman. He was a classmate of mine, and he was m the 
same class, mechanical engineering class, and he worked on me for a 
number of occasions to try to get me to go to this meeting. 

Mr. CoHN. How many people were there in that class, roughly ? 

Mr. Coleman. Twenty or thirty. 

Mr. CoHN. How many other people in that class took you to meet- 
ings of that kind? 

Mr. Coleman. None. 

Mr. CoHN. Pardon me. 

Mr. Coleman. None. 

Mr. CoHN. He was the only one? 

Mr. Coleman. Would you permit me to make an explanation? 

Mr. CoHN. Surely, go ahead. 

Mr. Coleman. It was a mechanical engineering class, and therefore 
there probably were students from civil engineering and chemical 
engineering, but he was an electrical engineering student, and I had 
known him from a previous class. 

The Chairman. Who else was at that Young Communist meeting? 

Mr. Coleman. There were 10 or 15 other people, whom I do not 
recollect or remember. 

Mr. CoHN. Do you remember Mr. Sussman ? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not remember Mr. Sussman. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you know Mr. Sussman was a Communist? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir ; Rosenberg told me. 

Mr. CoHN. He told you Sussman was a Communist? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Who else did Rosenberg tell you were Communists? 

Mr. Coleman. He didn't tell me of anybody else. 

Mr. CoHN. You were a casual acquaintance of Rosenberg and you 
didn't know him socially and he was lying when he said he knew you 
down at Fort Monmouth ; but nevertheless he took you to a meeting 
of the Young Communist League, of activities that, had they become 
known, he would have been exposed much earlier than he was, and he 
trusted you enough to take you to a meeting of the Young Communist 
League, and he confided in you as to the name of at least one other 
person who was a Communist with him ; is that right ? 

Is that the fact ? 

Mr. Coleman. Well, you made about 3 or 4 statements. 

Mr. CoHN. I would like to know which of those statements I have 
made is inaccurate, and if any is, I would like it to be corrected here 
and now. 

Mr. Coleman. I can't follow you as fast as you go. 

Mr. CoHN. Let me go very slowly. You say that you hardly knew 
Mr. Rosenberg, and you didn't know him socially, and you never had 
known him socially at all, and he was merely one of a number of your 
classmates. Is there anything wrong with that statement^ 

Mr. Coleman. I knew him at City College, as a classmate. 

Mr. CoHN. Just as a classmate, a guy who walked in the class and 
sat down? 



92 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Coleman. Well, I knew him in the laboratory class, and we 
worked on laboratory equipment too;ether. 

Mr, CoiiN. Don't be modest. Tell us the full extent of your asso- 
ciation and how well did you know Rosenberg? 

Mr. CoLKMAN. Well, I would say that I only knew him at the 
college with the exception of this meeting; he was a classmate, and I 
have already defined this fact; and I didn't visit his home and he 
didn't visit mine. 

Mr. CoiiN. Were you a member of his clique at college? And 
would 3^ou stay around with him ? And would you have lunch with 
him ? Was he your pal at college ? 

Mr. Coleman. At the time we were in the laboratory class, which 
was several years previous, I may have had lunch with him because 
we were in the same squad. 

Mr. CoHN. I didn't hear the last part. 

Mr. Coleman. We were in the same squad. 

Mr. CoHN. How well did you know him when you were in that 
squad? 

Mr. Coleman. Well, I don't know what you mean about how well. 

Mr. CoHN. Were you a close friend of his, and did you spend your 
time with him ? 

Mr. Coleman. At the laboratory, you mean ? Because we worked 
together, I was with him and I was not a close friend of his. 

Mr. CoHN. Can you explain then, how, if yoii were not a close friend 
of his, and your acquaintance was as casual as you seek to make it 
here, how it was that Rosenberg not only took you to a secret meeting 
of the Young Communist League but confided in you as to the name 
of at least one other person who was a Communist? 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. CoiJSMAN. As far as I know, it was not a secret meeting. 

Mr. CoHN. Was it an open meeting? Was it advertised? 

Mr. Coleman. It was not advertised. 

Mr. CoiiN. Were you introduced to the other people at the meeting? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Were names given ? 

Mr. Coleman. No. 

Mr. CoiiN. Would you call it an open meeting? 

Mr. Coleman. I walked into the meeting while it was in progress, 
as far as I remember, and I walked out while it was still in progress. 

Mr. CoiiN. Was Rosenberg at the meeting? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoiiN. And he had asked you to come? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir ; he had tried to get me to come, and 1 finally 
agreed. 

Mr. CoHN. He had tried to get you to come? On how many oc- 
casions did he try to get you to come? 

Mr. Coleman. T don't remember. 

Mr. CoHN. Give us an approximation. 

Mr. Coleman. Several. That is the best I can remember today. 

The Chairman. Mr. Coleman, at the time of the Rosenberg trial 
a question arose whether or not Rosenberg was a Connnunist, and I 
assume you read in the paper about that trial. And did you ever in- 
form the Justice Department or the FBI that you knew Rosenberg 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 93 

had been a Communist, and he had been soliciting you to join the 
party ? 

Mr. Coleman. Vohmtarily, no, sir, 1 did not. I informed them 
when they asked me. 

The Chairman. In other words, when they were investigating you, 
then you told them ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't know whether they were investigating me or 
anyone else. Tliey asked me to sign a statement about Rosenberg. 

Mr. CoHN. On what interview by the FBI was that? You were 
interviewed three times, weren't you ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't remember how many times. 

Mr. CoiiN. It was more than once? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes. 

Mr. CoiiN. Did you tell the FBI the full story the first time? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't think I did. 

Mr. CoHN. No ; you didn't. You don't seem to have told anybody 
the full story the first occasion. Why didn't you tell the FBI the full 
story at the first occasion? 

Mi\ Coleman. I don't remember why I didn't tell them, but I did 
tell 

Mr. CoHN. Didn't you think it was a pretty important issue? This 
is a man who was arrested for conspiracy to steal atom secrets and 
commit espionage against this country, and the FBI was interviewing 
people who might be in a position to give it information which the 
Government could use at the trial to support the indictment of the 
grand jury. Don't you think it was a pretty important thing for you 
to give full information as to that at that time? 

(Witness conferred with his counsel) 

Mr. Coleman. They asked me primarily whether or not he was a 
Communist, and they asked me how I knew, and I told them he had 
told me, and I signed a statement for them. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you tell them that he had taken you to a meeting 
of the Young Communist League ? 

Mr. Coleman. No ; I did not on that occasion. I told them on the 
second occasion. 

Mr, CoHN. Mr. Coleman, you were a high official then of the Evans 
Signal Laboratory, a man in an extremely sensitive position, and you 
were being questioned about another man who had worked for the 
Signal Corps, a man who then was up on the most serious charges 
in the history of the country. And don't you think you owed an 
obligation to the FBI to disclose to them that this man had taken you, 
solicited you to become a Communist, and had actually taken you to 
this meeting of the Young Communist League? 

Mr. Coleman. I told them whatever information they asked me 
about. 

Mr. CoiiN. And nothing more, is that right? 

Mr. Coleman. I gathered they were primarily interested in a state- 
ment and that I might be called upon to give further testimony at the 
grand jury ; and they said that they might come back, and also I- 

The Chairman. You said you told them everything they asked 
you. They did ask you on the first occasion, did they not, how you 
knew Rosenberg was a Communist and whether you had ever attended 
any meetings with him? And you told them at that time you 



94 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

never attended any meetings with him, that the only reason you knew 
he was a Communist was because he told you so? Isn't that correct? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't think I told them that. I had previously 
told many people that I had attended a meeting of the Young Com- 
munist League, and I don't see why I would conceal it at that time. I 
had told a friend of mine in 1939, and he reported it to appropriate 
authorities. 

Mr. CoHN. To whom did he report it ? 

Mr. Coleman. G-2 Army Intelligence. 

Mr. CoHN. What was the person's name ? 

Mr. Coleman. Mr. Tepper. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Tepper? 

Mr. Coleman. T-e-p-p-e-r. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. To whom in G-2 did he make that report ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't know. 

Mr. CoHN. Where is Mr. Tepper now ? 

Mr. Coleman. He is working at the Signal Corps. 
Mr. CoHN. Is that down at Monmouth? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Is he employed there now? 

Mr. CbLEMAN. Yes. 

Mr. CoHN. If he made reports concerning Rosenberg being a Com- 
munist prior to the time Rosenberg was retained for 5 years by the 
Signal Corps, I think we ought to know the name of the person to 
whom he made that report. 

Mr. Coleman. I am sorry, you misinterpreted me. I did not say 
he reported that Rosenberg was a Communist. This man was not a 
classmate of mine. Wliether I mentioned Rosenberg's name or not I 
don't recollect, and if I did, I don't know if it would mean anything 
to the fellow. I did say I had gone to one meeting and this was in 
1939 or early 1940. 

The Chairman. You say Tepper reported that to G-2? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did he tell you he reported it to G-2 ? 

Mr. Coleman. No ; he did not, not until recently. 

The Chairman. You didn't know he reported that until recently? 

Mr. Colemax. I didn't know that he had reported it. 

The Chairman. How did you learn that he had reported that? 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Coleman. How did I learn that he had reported it? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Coleman. He told me. 

The Chairman. When did he tell you? 

Mr. Coleman. Several weeks ago. 

The Chairman. That is the first time you knew about it? 

Mr. Coleman. It is the first time I knew that he had told them, and 
I knew that either Naval Intelligence or the FBI knew that I had at- 
tended a meeting of the Young Communist League, and they knew 
that in 1943, at the time I was applying for my Marine Corps com- 
mission. 

The Chairman. Getting back to the FBI report, they interviewed 
you during the prosecution of Rosenberg, that is correct, isn't it? 

Mr. Coleman. You mean when the trial was actually on? Before 
the trial, I believe. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 95 

The Chairman. After his arrest and indictment? 

Mr. Coleman. After his arrest, that is the best I can place it. 

The Chaieman. And they came to see you three times ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't remember how many times they came to see 
me; it was more than once. 

The Chairman. Do you recall that the first time they came they 
asked you whether you belonged to the Young Communist League or 
whether you had ever attended any meetings and you said, "No," 

you had not? 

Mr. Coleman. I have no recollection of such questions. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Coleman, the fact is when the FBI went to you 
the first time, you did not tell them that you had attended this meet- 
ing of the Young Communist League with Rosenberg? 

Mr. Coleman. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. And the fact is that at the time you did not tell them 
that, you knew it in your own mind ? 

Mr. Coleman. And I also knew that they knew it, too. 

Mr. CoHN. Why didn't you tell them ? 

Mr. Coleman. They didn't ask me, and I didn't know whether it 
was important or not. But I knew that they knew I had attended 
the meeting. 

Mr. CoHN. How did you know ? 

Mr. Coleman. Because I had been told that the Naval Intelligence 
people when investigating me for a commission asked whether or not 
I had attended a meeting. 

Mr. CoHN. By whom had you been told that? 

Mr. Coleman. I was told that by Mr. Okun. 

Mr. CoiiN. When did he tell you that ? 

Mr. Coleman. I believe he told it to me in 1943 or thereabouts. 
Now I knew that they knew I had attended a meeting. 

Mr. CoHN. But you felt the thing should just not be mentioned out 

there? 

Mr. Coleman. I didn't know whether it was important or not, and 
I didn't volunteer the information; when they asked me further, I 
told them the details. 

Mr. CoHN. The whole purpose of them going to you was concern- 
ing getting information concerning Rosenberg's Communist activities, 
and you say you didn't tell them that Rosenberg had taken you to 
this meeting of the Young Communist League ? 

Mr. Coleman. On the first occasion, no ; I told them he was a Com- 
munist and I signed a statement to that effect. 

The Chairman. I would like to get back, Mr. Coleman, to this 
question of how you removed the secret and other classified material 
from the laboratories. It was your testimony this morning on certain 
occasions you did not sign out for the material ; is that right? 

Mr. Coleman. To the best of my recollection, I may have used this 
pass without signing a "whiz" pass. 

The Chairman. I want to read to you from your testimony taken 
in executive session on October 22. First let me ask you this ques- 
tion : You say that on each occasion you showed the classified material 
to the guard ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't know whether the guard examined the ma- 
terial every time; sometimes they were not interested in examining 
the material, and they only wanted to see the pass. 



96 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Tlie CiTAiKMAN. Did yon ever carry it under yonr coat? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Where did you carry it, ont in the open, or brief- 
case, or what ? 

]Mr. Coleman. I don't recollect, sir. 

The Chairman. You don't recall ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. 

The Chairman. AVas a list made each time of the material that 
you removed? 

JNIr. Coleman. A list made by whom? 

The Chairman. By anyone? 

Mr. Coleman. "WTien it was removed with a pass, the list was given 
to the guard. 

The Chairman. Wlien it was removed without a pass, was any 
record made? 

Mr. Coleman. It was never removed without a pass. There are two 
kinds of passes. 

The Chairman. In each case was a record made ? 

Mr. Coleman. "Wlien the material was removed with a white pass 
of a oeneral nature, I don't think a record was made. 

The Chairman. How about when you signed what they call a "whiz" 
pass ? 

Mr. Coleman. At that time carbon copies were made and sent to 
either the property officer or, I believe, the security officer and kept 
on file at the section or branch. 

The Chairman. Let me read now from your testimony on page 
1241: 

Now, didn't you keep a record yourself of the secret material wliich was 
removed or the classified material? 

Answer. No; the material was removed and it was checljed in my presence 
and a list was made and a copy was given to me. 

Is that a correct answer ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't believe we are talking about the same thing, 
Senator. 

The Chairman. We are talking about the secret material which 
you removed from the radar labs, and it is rather difficult to misunder- 
stand each other about that. 

Mr. Coleman. I thought you were talking about material that was 
in general removed with passes from the radar laboratories. Now 
I see you are talking about the material that was found in my apart- 
ment. The testimony that you just read is correct. I was furnished 
a list and you have a copy of it right there. 

The Chairman. You mean they furnished you a list when they 
raided your apartment. 

Mr. Coleman. They didn't raid my apartment. The circumstances 
have been explained. 

The Chairman. Wlien they searched your apartment. 

Mr. Coleman. They searched my apartment and they took the docu- 
ments witli them to the security and intelligcMice office and a list was 
made in my presence, and I was given a copy of the list. 

The Chairman. When I questioned you in executive session, you 
say, about whether you kept the i-ecords when the material was re- 
moved, that you thought I was talking about the time the intelligence 
officers removed it from your apartment; is that correct? 



\RMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 97 

Mr. Coleman. I am not sure now; I have to read the testimony 
to be sure exactly what you are referring to. 
The Chairman. Let me read it to you : 

Didn't you keep a record yourself of the secret material which j-on removed 
or the other classified material? 

Answer : No ; the material was removed and was checked in my presence 
and a list was made and a copy was given to me. 

The Chairman. No ; I am talking: about the time you removed the material 
from the Sig:nal Corps lab and took it to your apartment. Did you at that time 
make any record of your having removed it? 

Answer. I don't think so, sir. 

Question. Didn't you sign some kind of a pass saying, "I am taking such 
and such a document away?" 

Answer. Yes, sir. I removed it with the authorization of a "whiz" pass. 

Question. And you signed that pass yourself? 

Mr. Coleman. As well as my supervisor. 

Question. Did you keep a copy of that pass? 

Answer. I may have kept a copy of that pass for a while, but I don't have 
it now. 

Question. So anyone searching the Signal Corps records would find a record 
of all of the material you removed, is that correct? 

Answer. Well, if you will permit me to explain, I think there Avas more 
than one copy of the "whiz" pass made. One copy was given to the guard, 
and one copy was for the individual, and one copy went to either the supply 
ofiicer or the security officer ; so there should be a record. 

I may say since that time we have searched for that record and we 
find that there apparently is not such record of your having removed 
it. Now, do I understand today you say you did not sign the "whiz" 
pass for all of the material removed ? On some occasions you merely 
picked it up and took it out of the plant ? 

Mr. Coleman. On some occasions I may have used the white pass, 
and it depends upon what the regulations in effect at that time were. 
I am not absolutely certain that the "whiz" pass was used for every 
single one of those documents. I believe so, but I am not certain. 

The Chairman. How could you have been so certain on the 22d of 
October and have the serious doubt today? Is it because you have 
learned we have searched the records and found what you told us on 
that date could not be true and that there is no record made of the 
material you removed ? 

Mr. Coleman. If you read all of the testimony, Senator, I think 
that you will recall that I mentioned this white pass, and we liad 
quite a bit of confusion about the various kinds of passes. 

The Chairman. I am going to ask j^ou to read the testimony, Mr. 
Coleman, and you point out to us where in your executive session 
testimony — and we questioned you in detail — where you ever told us 
that you removed material without keeping a record. I will let you 
read your own testimony and you are ordered to point out wherein 
you told us anything like you are telling us this morning. 

Now, let us get on to some of these documents, if we may. No. 5, 
not using the classification number but merely the number on tlie list 
here. Incidentally — we will take No. 6 entitled "Close Cooperation 
Set, Secret." That was a document describing a radar set which had 
not been completed but was on the drawing board and in the process 
of being completed ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't remember the details of that set, Senator. 
As I think I told you this morning, it was a modified wartime radar, 
but I am not sure. 



98 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

The Chairman. "VVe have a considerable amount of testimony on 
this question of marking down the classification. Let me see if you 
understand it the same as the other people who have testified. 

The testimony is that if you have a new radar set in the blueprint 
stage, it would be extremely important for the enemy to 
acquire those blueprints because it would enable him to keep apace 
of our development and add his own research to that and would 
allow him to be ahead of us. The most important time, so far as 
security is concerned, in the life of the development of a new weapon 
or new piece of radar is in the early stages. 

After it has once been fully developed, at that point it is generally 
classified downward. Is that your understanding? 

Mr. Coleman. Generally speaking, yes, sir. In general, that is 
my general understanding. 

The Chairman. Some of these secret documents concern the verj', 
very current development of our radar, is that correct ? 

Mr. Coleman. Today you mean ? 

The Chairman. No, at that time. In other words, the day you 
took the documents from the laboratory, the documents marked 
"Secret," they concerned the very current development, the modifica- 
tion, and the changes in our radar detection system and in our radar, 
is that correct ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't know. 

The Chairman. You don't know ? 

Mr. Coleman. I think if you are referring to that one document, 
my best recollection of it, it was a modification of a wartime radar 
which had been declassified that year, but I am not sure. 

The Chairman. When you were taking these documents home, jou 
said you were working on this project of yours. You were not tak- 
ing home descriptions of old outmoded material, were you? 

Mr. Coleman. I may have. 

The Chairman. Let us shift on to another document, then. An- 
other document is Technical Report number so and so, subject, 
Translation of the Military Requirement of Range in the Technical 
Specifications of Radar, marked "Secret." Do you recall that that 
concerned the then current development of our radar ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't think so, sir; I don't think that concerned 
any particular radar ; it concerned the factors upon which the range 
of any radar depends. I am judging that from the title as you read 
it. 

The Chairman. You do not recall what Avas in the document? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir, I do not. 

The Chairman. Let me give you another one : Summary of Military 
Characteristics for Equipment as Used by the Army Air Force — 
Secret. Do you think it might be of any benefit to the enemy if he 
had a copy of that? 

Mr. Coleman. At what time, sir ? 

The Chairman. At the time you took them, sir. 

Mr. Coleman, In 194G, I don't think so. I think it was all pub- 
lished in Electronics, IRE, and AIEE, all of the characteristics of 
all of our radar; and a year later, 28 volumes of all of the American 
wartime radar work was published. It was sent all over the world. 

The Chairman. Now let us take the two that were still classified 
secret, not the date you took them, but the day the Army Intelligence 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 99 

picked tliem up, still classified secret. Keeping in mind the classifi- 
cation of secret, do you feel that those documents would have been of 
benefit to the enemy if he had them ? 

Mr. Coleman. Insofar as I know, only two documents were still 
classified, and they were classified confidential, so shall we talk about 
the confidential documents ? 

The Chairman. Let us have a definition of confidential, then. 

Mr. Coleman. I am not sure of the exact definition of confidential, 
but I know it is not as critical as secret, which you previously read 
the definition of. 

The Chairman. Let us read the definition of confidential so we will 
know what we are talking about, then : 

Information the disclosure of which, although not endangering the national 
security, would impair the effectiveness of Government defense activities. 

Do you feel that those documents that you say were classified con- 
fidential at the time they were picked up in your apartment would have 
been of some benefit to the enemy ? 

Mr. Coleman. As described, they would have been of some benefit, 
as indicated in the definition. 

The Chairman. Many of them were stamped secret at the time you 
took them, and do you say that those documents had been classified 
lower at the time you took them ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't knoAv, sir. 

The Chairman. In other words, at the time you took them, as far 
as you knew, the material was still classified as secret ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't know, sir, and I don't know what the classi- 
fication, actual current classification, was. 

The Chairman. Wlien there was a secret stamp on a dociunent and 
you took it away from the laboratory and took it to your apartment, 
in your opinion that was still classified secret; is that right? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Who had access to that apartment? 

Mr. Coleman. My roommate. 

The Chairman. I think the record shows he was suspended. How 
many roommates did you have in 1946 ? 

Mr. Coleman. Just the one. 

The Chairman. Just the one, all during 1946 ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And when was he suspended ? 

Mr. Coleman. In 1949. 

The Chairman. Did your landlady have access to the room ? 

Mr. Coleman. I am not sure. You asked me that question before, 
and she probably, as all landladies, she may have had a key to the 
apartment, and I don't know. Probably. 

The Chairman. Did you ever live with Mr. Sachs ? 

Mr. Coleman. I believe he shared our apartment in 1943 for a 
month or two, and I am not sure of the exact length of time. 

The Chairman. Did you know Sachs was a Communist at that 
time? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir ; I did not. 

The Chairman. Did you think he was ? 



100 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Coleman. I think sometime while he was rooming with us, 
I thought he might be favoring Russia in connection with the Finland 
incident. 

The Chairman. You undei-stand my question. The question was : 
Did you think he was a Communist when you were rooming with 
him? 

]Mr. Coleman. I did not think he was a member of the Communist 
Party. I thought he might be sympathetic. 

The Chairman. At that time, did you have secret documents in 
your home? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't recollect. 

The Chairman. You do not know whether you did or not? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't remember. 

The Chairman. But you might have ? 

]Mr. Coleman. I might have. 

The Chairman. Would you think it was a breach of security 
to have secret documents lying around in your apartment when you 
are living with a man whom you thought was sympathetic to 
communism ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't know if I had any secret documents lying 
around in the apartment at that time, and I only learned about his 
sympathies just before I went into the Marine Corps. I did not 
know anything about his general opinions in this matter prior to 
that time. 

The Chairman. Did the maid have access to your room, or did 
you have someone come in and clean it up ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't recollect a maid coming in to clean up 
our room. 

The Chairman. Did jou do the housework yourself ? 

Mr. Coleman. I think we did a lot of it ourselves, and we cooked 
internally, but I do not remember all of the circumstances. 

The Chairman. How long — I believe you told us this before, but 
how long did you say you lived with Sachs ? 

Mr. Coleman. Several months, to the best of my recoUecttion. 

The Chairman. And in what year was that ? 

Mr. Coleman. I think it was in the very last half, maybe November 
of 1943, or December, or something around that period of time, just 
before t went into the Marine Corps. 

The Chairman. And you say you do not know whether you were 
removing secret documents at that time or not? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't recollect. 

The Chairman. Who was your landlady? 

Mr. Coleman. I think it was somebody by the name of Brown, but 
I am not sure. 

The Chairman. What was the address at which you lived? 

Mr. Coleman. 108 Second Avenue, Bradley Beach. 

The Chairman. Did you have a safe in your apartment? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir; I did not. 

The Chairman. Where did you store this secret material? 

Mr. Coleman. What secret material ? 

The Chairman. Tlie secret matorial that the Army picked up when 
they searched your apartment. 

Mr. Coleman. In 1946? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 101 

The Chairman. Did they search your apartment at any other time? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. 

The Chairman. All right, then the question is very clear. 

Mr. Coleman, All right, I had some material, not all of which was 
secret, stored on top of my desk, and some material I had in a closet. 

The Chairman. And you had removed that material from the 
laboratory over a period of what time? 

Mr. Coleman. Several months in 1946, and I doil't remember the 
exact times. I took some material out and I returned other material, 
and I don't remember the details of it. 

The Chairman. So this list which the Army made when they 
searched your apartment is not a complete list of all of the secret or 
other classified material which you removed ? 

Mr. Coleman. In the sense that I returned some material ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. "In the sense you returned some of the material, 
yes, sir." You mean there was additional material ? 

Mr. Coleman. Which I may have returned to the laboratories, and 
which was not in my apartment at the time they searched it. 

The Chairman. Do you know the classification of the other ma- 
terial which you removed and returned ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir ; I do not. 

The Chairman. Did Army Intelligence tell you at the time that 
you had not accoinited for all of the documents which you had re- 
moved ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't recollect any such conversation. 

The Chairman. Did anyone in connection with the military ever 
at any time inform you that some of the classified documents which 
you had removed were not accounted for by you ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. 

The Chairman. No one ever did ? 

Mr. Coleman. To the best of my recollection ; no, sir. 

The Chairman. And did Mr. Reid ever inform you that certain 
documents which you had removed were not returned ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir, Mr. Reid didn't, to the best of my recollec- 
tion, talk to me about this after the documents were recovered from 
my apartment. 

The Chairman. I believe we covered this before, but can you esti- 
mate approximately how many other secret documents you removed 
from the Signal Corps lab and later returned ? 

Mr. Coi^man. I cannot estimate, and I don't really know if they 
were secret or not. I have no recollection of the nature of the 
documents. 

The Chairman. You have no idea how many you removed? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You cannot even make a guess at how many you 
removed ? 

Mr. Coleman. It might be as high as 10, but I am not sure. 

The Chairman. Then your testimony is that you kept most of those 
that you removed ? 

Mr. Coleman. "Well, I would take it out and work on it, and re- 
turn some of it, and that was the general procedure. I don't know 
how long I had kept the documents that were in my apartment, and 
I cannot say. 



102 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

The Chaikjian. But your testimony is that over this period of time 
you worked for Monmouth, you feel you did not remove any more 
than 10 other documents which you later returned ? 

Mr. Coleman. This is in 1946, since the war. This is a general 
impression. I cannot vouch for its accuracy. 

The Chairman. Did you make notes of secret documents and take 
those notes home with you ? 

Mr. Coleman. I may have made notes from some documents, and I 
don't remember what their classification was. However, the notes 
may not have been classified, and the fact that it was taken from a 
document doesn't mean it has the same classification. I think I recol- 
lect one report which was concerned with antennas, and I think that 
I may have made some notes on it, and I don't think that the notes 
were classified but I am not sure. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Coleman, you are not telling us you 
only made notes from one classified document and took those notes 
liome with you, are you ? Is that your testimony 'i 

Mr. Coleman. No. I am saying I don't remember. 

The Chairman. You only remember one occasion upon which you 
made notes from a classified document and took those notes home, 
or rather, took them along with you, whether you took them home or 
not ; is that your testimony ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't know where I made the notes, and I don't 
know what the classification of the documents was at the time I made 
the notes. I may have made the notes at home and I may have made 
them at the laboratory. 

The Chairman, Let us forget about the classification. On how 
many occasions do you recall having made notes from documents in 
the radar laboratories and removing those notes from the labora- 
tories ? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not recollect. 

The Chairman. Well, would you say 50 times would be too great? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir; I think so. 

The Chairman. You think so? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. Would vou let me answer that more 
completely ? 

The Chairman. Proceed. 

Mr. Coleman. I don't know whether I made the notes in the 
laboratories or whether I made them when I was working on them at 
home. I don't remember how many times I may have made the notes, 
or what the classification was. I did make some notes, and this is 
the best of my recollection: I remember one case which I tried to 
cite to you before, and I don't remember any other cases. 

The Chairman. Unfortunately I do not follow you. You say you 
do not remember any more than 1 case, and then you say it might be 
less than 50, Let us rephrase the question again so that there can be 
no question of your misunderstanding it. Would you say that on at 
least 50 different occasions you made notes from documents which 
were either in the Fort Monmouth laboratories or documents which 
you had removed from the laboratories? 

Mr, Coleman, I would not say 50 occasions, and I say I don't recol- 
lect how many occasions. 

The Chairman. Would you think that 50 is a reasonable estimate ? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 103 

Mr. Coleman. I think 50 is high, but I cannot say. You are trying 
to pin me down, and my memory isn't that good. I think if I did tel] 
you how many occasions, you would have good reason to suspect my 
veracity, and I don't remember how many occasions. I think there 
were a few, and perhaps many. 

The Chairman. You think there were a few, and maybe many ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't know how many. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Coleman, I have one or two questions. Can you 
give us any idea as to what you had in the nature of classified docu- 
ments in your apartment when Mr. Harry Sachs, whom you thought 
to be a Communist, was living with you ? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not remember, and I don't know if I had any 
documents at that time. I said before, I had suspicions of his opinions 
just before I went into the Marine Corps. 

Mr. CoHN. Was Mr. Sachs living with you at that time ? 

Mr. Coleman. At the exact date I went to the Marine Corps? 

Mr. CoHN. At the point when you had suspicions. 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Let we ask you this : Did Sobell know Rosenberg at City 
College? 

Mr. Coleman. I believe he did. 

Mr. CoHN. Did he know him well ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't know. I don't think so, insofar as I knew. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you ever see them together ? 

Mr. Coleman. And I have evidence to indicate why I thought so. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you ever see them together ? 

Mr. Coleman. I may have, and I don't remember. 

Mr. CoHN. You have no recollection of ever having seen them to- 
gether ? 

Mr Coleman. I don't say that. I don't remember, and I don't re- 
call them as being particularly close friends. 

Mr. CoHN. Would you say that you recall Sobell as being as friendly 
with Rosenberg as you were with Rosenberg ? What is your recollec- 
tion on that ? 

Mr. Coleman. My recollection of him is that he wasn't particularly 
friendly with Rosenberg, and I have no other evidence to the contrary, 
and I never associated his name with Rosenberg particularly. 

Mr. CoHN. How about Sussman, did he know Sobell ? 

Mr. Coleman. I didn't associate Sussman with Sobell, and I asso- 
ciated him with Rosenberg. 

Mr. CoHN. You didn't know whether Sussman knew Sobell? 

Mr. Coleman. No. 

Mr. CoHN. I want to ask you this question here — ^by the way, is 
there anything else you said on this recommendation you gave to 
Mr. Sobell? And when was that, by the way? When did you give 
IVIr. Sobell this recommendation to the First Army ? 

Mr. Coleman. I did not give Mr. Sobell a recommendation? 

Mr. CoHN. Did you tell them that they shouldn't employ him ; that 
he was an associate of Julius Rosenberg? 

Mr. Coleman, I didn't know that, and I didn't say that. I said 
only what I knew at the time, and I don't remember what I said, but 
it was not unfavorable, since I had no unfavorable or derogatory in- 
formation against him. He was working on classified work and he 



104 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

had been, and I assumed he was all right, and I knew nothing else 
about him. 

Mr. CoHN. You gave him a favorable reference, did j'ou not? 

Mr. CoLEMAX. I don't remember what it was, but it was not de- 
rogatory. 

Mr. CoHN. It was not derogatory ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. When was that? 

Mr. Coleman. It was 1946 or 1947. 

Mr. Cohn. He applied for the job in 1947 and gave your name. 

Mr. Coleman, Then it was in 1947. 

Mr. Cohn. Sometime in 1947. I assume it was sometime there- 
after. 

Mr. Coleman. It was 1947. 

Mr. Cohn. Mr. Coleman, one thing I think we ought to cover, and 
I am not sure we have completely. Mr. Reid has testified that when 
you were brought in to his office, and he asked you whether or not 
you had classified documents in your home, you told him no, you did 
not; and that later you changed your answer and said maybe; and 
then finally you admitted that you had. 

Now, did you tell Mr. Reid, as he has testified, at first that you did 
not have classified documents in your home? 

Mr. Coleman. I recollect only one interview. 

Mr. Cohn. This is all the same interview. 

Mr. Coleman. All I remember is the end result of the interview, 
because it seemed rather abrupt to me. 

Mr. Cohn. Isn't it a rather important point? I can understand the 
end result of the interview, and after he told you your place was 
going to be searched you then told him, "Well, yes, there are some 
things or some papers there." But I want to know whether or not 
you lied to Mr. Reid at the beginning, as he said you did, and told 
him and denied to him that you did have any classified documents 
whatsoever in your home? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't remember anything of that nature, and I 
remember I told him about the pink registration card, and I re- 
member I hold him I had documents in my home. This is all I re- 
member about the incident. At the moment I told him I had docu- 
ments in my home, bang, downstairs I went for this waiver. This 
is the only recollection I have of it. 

If you want to get some more out of it, you can't get it while I am 
conscious. 

Mr. Cohn. What is that? 

Mr. Coleman. You will have to do something more. This is all I 
remember. 

Mr, Cohn. Can you give us any more of your recollection of your 
association with Rosenberg, which was close enough so that he not 
only took you to this meeting of the Young Communist League, but 
was confiding in you the identity of at least one other person who was 
a member of the Communst movement ? 

Mr. Coleman. At that time, that wasn't considered very much of 
a confidence. They were very open about it, and they called them- 
selves the Young Communist League and they didn't hide. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 105 

Mr. CoHN. Then give us the names of some other people besides 
Rosenberg, who is dead, and Sussman, who has come forward and ad- 
mitted the charge and named himself. 

Mr. Coleman. This is the only two people I knew at that time, and 
I explained to you the circumstances why it was only those two people. 
Senator McCarthy questioned it in executive session, and I tried to 
give him an explanation of why that was so. 

The Chairman. May I say, Mr. Coleman, when you tell us the 
Communists were very open about their membership at that time, and 
then can give us the names of only one executed Communist and 
another one who admits he was a Communist, it does not quite ring 
true. You see, it follows a pattern; it follows a pattern of men we 
have had before us, and they have attended Communist meetings and 
they admit it because they know they will be guilty of perjury and 
be caught if they do not. But when they start thinking of names of 
their friends who went to those meetings the only names we get are 
the names of very well-known Communists. However, you, of course, 
have a right to your views. 

I am going to go over a few of these documents. 

Mr. CoHN. I have one last question on that point. 

When did you disclose to anybody that Mr. Sussman was a 
Communist ? 

Mr. Coleman. I disclosed it to the FBI, and I don't remember 
when. I may have mentioned it to classmates of mine at various times, 
but I don't remember. 

Mr . CoHN. Did you disclose Mr. Sussman was a Communist before 
or after you knew that he had named you as one ? 

Mr. Coleman. Before. 

Mr. CoHN. Wlien? 

Mr. Coleman. The first time I knew was when you people told me 
at executive session that he was cooperating with you, and I told you 
then that I was testifying under oath, and I was well aware of it, 
and I said that the first time I knew that Susman was cooperating with 
the Government was at that time. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you tell the FBI about Sussman at the first inter- 
view? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't remember when I told them. 

Mr. CoHN. You know you didn't tell them at the first interview? 

Mr .Coleman. I don't remember. 

Mr. CoHN. Did the FBI mention Sussman to you at the first 
interview ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't recall. I know I told them, and they asked 
me at some time, in one of those interviews, who I thought were Com- 
munists in the City College class, and I told them all I knew. 

Mr. CoHN. Namely, Eosenberg and Sussman ? 

Mr. Coleman. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. Is that right? 

Mr. Coleman. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. And that was not — or you can't tell us whether or not 
that was at the first interview ? 

Mr. Coleman. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. But you are sure at the first interview you did not tell 
them that Rosenberg had taken you to a meeting of the Young Com- 
munist League ? 



106 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Coleman. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. You are sure of that ? 

Mr. Coleman. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. I have nothing further. 

The Chaik&ian. Let me see if I have this correctly in mind. Mr. 
Coleman, you were handling secret material at Fort Monmouth, and 
you knew that Rosenberg was a Communist and Sussman was a Com- 
munist. Did it ever occur to you that you perhaps should, on your 
own, notify the FBI and tell them that you knew both of those men 
were Communists ? I am curious to know why you waited until along 
in 1950, or whenever it was that Rosenberg was up for trial, when they 
came to you and questioned you, they had to come back three times 
to get the complete story — why you waited until that time, you, a 
man who was handling secret and top secret material. 

Mr. CoLEikLAN. I did not know Rosenberg was working for the 
Government, and I didn't know anything about Sussman or Rosenberg, 
where they were or what they were doing. 

The Chairman. Wlien he was arrested, why did you not contact the 
FBI and say, "I can give you some information on this man"? 

Mr. Coleman. I read the newspaper reports, and I realized that they 
knew he was a Communist, and they indicated that he had been fired 
in 1945 as a Communist. The only information I had to give was that 
he was a Communist, and it didn't seem to me that that would add 
anything. 

The Chairman. We have another document here. See if you can 
tell us what is in this : "Comparative Technical Characteristics of Vari- 
ous Radar Sets — Secret." Do you know why you had that? 

Mr. Coleman. I was using that in connection with my work, which 
was a broad-scale project requiring information on many radar sets. 

The Chairman. Were you writing a report? 

Mr. Coleman. I had been writing many reports, and I don't remem- 
ber if I was writing one at that time. 

The Chairman. Then we have another one : "Research Laboratory 
Special Report." The registry number of it has to do with the radar 
scanning system, classified "Secret." Do you know how long you had 
that lying around your apartment? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir ; I don't. Whatever is in that document that 
you are reading from is the best information I have. 

The Chairman. And it never occurred to you that with people hav- 
ing access to your apartment, you should not leave secret material lying 
around in it ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't remember if it occurred to me in 1946 or not. 
It has occurred to me since then many, many times. 

The Chairman. Do you think that a man should continue handling 
secret material when he is found to have removed the material and leit 
it lying around his house? 

Mr. Coleman. I think 

The Chairman. Do you think he should be allowed to continue 
handling secret material? 

Mr. Coleman. I think if you want to be fair, you should take all of 
the circumstances into account and make an impartial evaluation, and 
I have learned recently that that is what was done. I stood on that. 
I told you in executive session, and I will say it now in public, if it 



AEMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 107 

happened today and I was responsible, I would fire the man. This 
happened in 1946 when circumstances were entirely different, and the 
case was investigated as thoroughly as it was under the circumstances, 
and I don't know how thoroughly. 

The Chairman. Were not the rules and regulations covering secret 
material the same in 1946 as they were in 1952? 

Mr. Coleman. The ground rules in the installation were different, 
quite different. 

The Chairman. You say you would fire a man if you caught him 
doing this today ? 

Mr. Coleman. I certainly would, and I told you that in executive 
session, and I repeat it in public. 

The Chairman. In 1946, you say you would not ? 

Mr. Coleman. In 1946, 1 would have a board investigate all of the 
circumstances, and why he did it, and what were his motives, and 
I would weigh the factors as to whether it would be worth while in 
the national interest to retain him. 

The Chairman. How about in 1949, if you caught a man taking 
secrets out of the lab, would you fire him ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't know. I would have to evaluate the cir- 
cumstances, and I am talking about today in comparison to 1946. 

The Chairman. I am just wondering when conditions changed so 
radically that now you think a man should be fired for taking secrets 
out, and in 1946 he should not. I wonder when the conditions were 
changed. 

Mr. Coleman. When we realized that Russia is our enemy, and 
everybody didn't realize that in 1946, and we didn't know, everybody 
didn't know that the Communists were infiltrating the Government 
at that time, that a guy sitting next to you might be a Communist. 
We were fighting a different kind of an enemy, and he didn't use that 
type of work, and everybody here in this room knows that there is 
a difference between 1946 and 1953. 

The Chairman. When you went to that meeting, did you not know 
about their tactics? 

Mr. Coleman. I was 19 years old, and I was beginning to learn, and 
I learned at that meeting part of it. 

The Chairman. How about in the 1940's ? You admit having taken 
secret material away in 1943, and we had an enemy then at war with 
us. You knew our enemy also was trying to steal our secrets. Did 
you think a man who took secret material away from the laboratory 
in 1943 should be fired? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir, I did not. He was trying to help the war 
as best he could. 

The Chairman. You say by taking the secret material away, you 
were trying to help the war as best you could ? 

Mr. Coleman. I3y using it to fight the radar war, yes, and my whole 
record bears it out. 

The Chairman. Wliy did you not return the secret material ? 

Mr. Coleman. What secret material ? 

The Chairman. The material you took in 1943. 

Mr. Coleman. Some of that material, the material that I received 
at the labs, I was using as a Marine Corps radar officer to fight the 
war against Japan, and I was a radar officer and I was continuously 



108 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

cleared for access to radar information. I was using it to fight the 
war in the Pacific, just as you were, sir. 

The Chairman. To get back from the Pacific, why did you not turn 
it in then ? 

Mr. Coleman. I was still working on classified work, and I was 
trying to do the best job I knew how, and this was the way I was 
doing it. I know that everyone associated with me can testify to 
the fact that I dedicated myself to my work, and I thought only of 
that. And this is what I was doing. I have made many substantial 
contributions to the national interest, and that you yourself reported 
yesterday in the testimony. 

The Chairman. I reported that you made many contributions? 

Mr. Coleman. Your chief counsel read from the record what my 
job description was, and I was working toward that end, to help de- 
fend this country, not only against the enemies in wartime but the 
enemies in the cold war. 

The Chairman. You say that is the reason you kept material, 
some secret material, as much as 3 years, because you were fightingr 
the enemy ? You left it lying around your house. 

Mr. Coleman. I don't know whether I left it there that long. 

The Chairman. Knowing you were living with a man you thought 
was a Communist, and you thought you were fighting the enemy by 
keeping that secret material around. 

Mr. Coleman. You asked me several questions. Senator, and I am 
not sure which one you want me to answer. 

The Chairman. You can answer them all. 

Mr. Coleman. Will you take them one at a time ? 

The Chairman. You take them one at a time. 

Mr. Coleman. Well, all right. As far as I know, the radar infor- 
mation I carried with me, and I used it in connection with my work 
as a radar officer for the Marine Corps. I served overseas, and I 
carried other radar information that I received at Marine Corps 
School at Camp Lejeune at the same time. I was in charge of a 
number of different radar equipments while I was in the Pacific, and 
I tried to do the best job I could in wartime. That is the reason 
1 carried the documents with me. 

The Chairman. We have here Study of Automatic Weapons Fire 
Control Systems, that was produced in June of 1946, marked "Con- 
fidential." Do you know how soon you received it after it was 
produced ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir, I do not. 

The Chairman. You know nothing about it? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. 

The Chairman. I assume this had to do with radar fire control. 

Mr. Coleman. I don't remember what it was specifically concerned 
with. 

The Chairman. Study of Automatic Weapons Fire Control Sys- 
tems. 

Mr. Coleman. That is radar, that is probably radar fire control, 
reading from that title. 

The Chairman. You say you do not tliink that material would 
be of any benefit to the enemy if he had it ? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 109 

Mr. Coleman. Inasmuch as it was only two documents, classified 
confidential, the rest of the documents wouldn't help him any, since 
he could get much more from publications. 

The Chairman. Let us clarify the issue in reference to the two 
documents. You have stated that you removed a number of docu- 
ments and had them in your apartment and took them back to the 
plant, and you say you do not know how many of those were classified 
secret. Is it your testimony now that you can safely give the enemy 
two documents that are classified as high as confidentigtl without help- 
ing him? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir, I don't testify to that. 

The Chairman. Then you realize if the enemy received these docu- 
ments, it would be of great benefit to him ? 

Mr. Coleman. I am in no position to evaluate the benefits which 
he would get from confidential documents. 

The Chairman. From your work in radar, you have no idea 
whether this would benefit him or not ? 

Mr. Coleman. Those two confidential documents, which I don't 
know specifically which they are, I don't know how much benefit it 
would give him. 

The Chairman. Do you know when the documents that you took 
in 1943, marked "Secret," were declassified ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir, I do not. 

The Chairman. Did you get some of these documents from places 
other than the lab in which you were working ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir, I think that I may have gotten 1 or 2. 

The Chairman. Who gave them to you ? 

Mr. Coleman. I think I reported to you that one document I may 
have received from several people at Watson Laboratories, and I don't 
remember exactly who. 

The Chairman. You may have received them from whom at 
Watson ? 

Mr. Coleman. Mr. White. 

The Chairman. How do you spell that ? 

Mr. Coleman. W-h-i-t-e. 

The Chairman. What is his first name ? 

Mr. Coleman. Albert. 

The Chairman. And you say Albert White gave you the secret 
documents from Watson Laboratory ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. I say he was one of the three who might 
have given it to me in the course of our work. 

The Chairman. Who are the other two who might have given you 
the secret documents ? 

Mr. Coleman. It might have been Peter Rosmovsky. 

The Chairman. And the third man ? 

Mr. Coleman. Lester Cornell. 

The Chairman. You say it could not have been anyone else ? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't know. It might have been someone else, 
and this is the three names that suggest themselves to my memory, and 
I don't know. It might have been other people, and I do not recollect. 

The Chairman. I think in fairness to these three people who have 
been named, your testimony is that you have no knowledge they gave 
you these documents ; you say they might have given them to you. Is 
that correct ? 



110 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Coleman. That is correct, one of them may have given it to 
me in the course of our mutual work. 

The Chairman. How far is Watson from the lab in which you were 
working ? 

Mr. Coleman. About 10 miles. 

The Chairman. Do you recall when you went over to Watson and 
received this secret document? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't recall the specific time. 

The Chairman. You do not recall anything about it ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, I don't specifically recall the circumstances sur- 
rounding that visit any more than there were probably other visits. 

The Chairman. Do 3'^ou know if you received other material, other 
secret material, from Watson Laboratory ? 

Mr. Coleman. I may have, and I don't remember specifically. 

The Chairman. In other words, this was such a common occurrence 
you would not recall, is that correct ? 

Mr. Coleman. That is right. Many people from the two labora- 
tories interchanged visits, and they would receive material for use in 
their work. 

The Chairman. Do you know of anyone else who took secret or con- 
fidential material from any of the laboratories and kept it in his 
home? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir, I do not know. 

The Chairman. You know of no one else who did that? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't know of anyone specifically who did. 

The Chairman. Either specifically or unspecifically ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know of anyone? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know of anyone else who went to Young 
Communist League meetings, still working at Evans? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir ; I do not. 

The Chairman. Besides the documents you received from Watson 
Lab and Evans Lab, where else did you acquire others? 

Mr. Coleman. I received documents in the Marine Corps — some 
documents were my personal notes, and some documents were tech- 
nical manuals that I may have received from the Government Printing 
Office or from some place in the Pentagon where they were made 
available to Government employees. 

The Chairman. You say you received a few secret documents from 
the Pentagon? 

Mr. Coleman. I do not believe they were secret. I believe they 
were unclassified. 

The Chairman. Let us discuss only the secret and confidential. 

Mr. Coleman. All right. The secret and confidential documents 
I believe I got only in the Marine Corps, as far as I can recollect. 

The Chairman. You were not a combat soldier in the Marine 
Corps ; you were working in radar ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Coleman. I was in antiaircraft. 

The Chairman. Radar? 

Mr. Coleman. I was a radar officer with antiaircraft battalions. 

The Chairman. Now we have Watson Lab, Evans Lab. Where 
else did you get secret material or confidential material ? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 111 

Mr. Coleman. The Marine Corps. 

The Chairman. When I say "Secret" or "Confidential," let us both 
understand the term. I mean material that was stamped and marked 
"Secret" or "Confidential." Can you think of any other place? 

Mr. Coleman. I cannot recollect anj other place at the present time. 

The Chairman. How about the Air Corps ? 

Mr. Colem^an. Watson Laboratories was Air Force. 

The Chairman. How about the other branches of the Air Corps'? 

Mr. Coleman. I can't recollect receiving any information, and I 
may have, but I don't remember it. 

The Chairman. Did you get anything from MIT ? 

Mr. Coleman, I don't think I received any information from MIT 
personally, that is, by a visit. I may have received a report at Evans, 
but nothing by personal visit to MIT. 

The Chairman. Did you remove any documents from Evans that 
originated at MIT ? 

Mr. Coleman. You have the thing in front of you, and that is the 
best of my recollection. I think there was an MIT report. 

The Chairman. I have only the list of the documents they found in 
your apartment, and you said you removed others. 

Mr. Coleman. I don't know whether any of those others which I 
returned were from MIT. 

The Chairman. Was there a typewriter in your apartment ? 

Mr. Coleman. No, sir. 

The Chairman. How did you make the notes when you made notes? 
Was it by longhand ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir; longhand. 

The Chairman. And did you at times take classified documents 
home and make notes from them, and then take the original document 
back? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't recollect whether the documents were clas- 
sified, and the nature of the notes that I made. I cited one instance 
before. 

The Chairman. I am not asking the nature of the notes. Let us 
make it simpler, then. Did you ever take a document from the Signal 
Corps lab to your apartment, or anyplace else, and either photostat 
it or make notes from it, and then taKe the document back to the lab ? 

Mr. Coleman. I did not photostat any documents. That is the first 
question. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Coleman. And the second question, as to whether I made notes, 
I said before that I made notes, but I don't know where I made them ; 
either in the lab or in the apartment. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Do you know at this time whether you ever took 
any documents home and made notes from the document, and then 
returned the original documents? 

Mr. Coleman. I don't remember whether I made notes at my apart- 
ment or not. 

The Chairman. Mr. Green, as I stated yesterday, we are referring 
this to the Department of Justice with a recommendation that it be 
referred to the grand jury for presentation to the grand jury. No. 1, 
on perjury. I may say on the question of espionage, we do not have 
any witnesses to testify that they saw Coleman turn over any material 



112 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

to an enemy agent. I discussed this with some of the attorneys in the 
Department of Justice, and there is a difference of opinion as to 
whether or not removal of classified material and leaving it in a 
position where it is readily available, to a man whom he thought 
was a Communist or leaving it readily available to a landlord or 
landlady whom he does not know, and a roommate — whether that 
would be a violation of that part of the Espionage Act which is not 
outlawed by the statute of limitations. The mere removal would, of 
course, be a violation of the Espionage Act, and the Justice Depart- 
ment has ruled that the statute of limitations has run upon that par- 
ticular offense. Is that correct ? 

Mr. CoHN. I think the Department of Justice has had that under 
advisement for some time, Mr. Chairman, and the tentative ruling was 
that under the facts made out, it would be barred. It would be a viola- 
tion of one of the sections, but would be barred by the statute of 
limitations. 

The Chairman. Let us have the record clear on this : The Depart- 
ment, with the information they had, ruled that the violation of the 
peacetime Espionage Act would be outlawed ? 

Mr. CoHN. By the statute of limitations. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

They have not yet ruled on the question — and we are referring this 
to them specifically after all of the evidence is in — whether or not 
there was a violation which would be equivalent to turning it over to 
an enemy agent when he makes it available to an enemy agent, a man 
whom he thought was a Communist and who now has been proven to 
be an active Communist at the time, and making it available to any 
and all comers, in effect, who had a key to his apartment, again in 1946. 

Now, I think it is a very close question ; I think it is something the 
Department of Justice attorneys should go into after we have sub- 
mitted all of the testimony. 

Mr. CoHN. There are more witnesses. 

Mr. Green. Senator, you addressed that statement to me. 

The Chairman. Just as a courtesy, I was going to tell you what we 
intended to do. 

Mr. CoiiN. I wanted to amplify the Senator's point, Mr. Green, and 
you might want to hear that before you make a comment. 

Mr. Chairman, as I understand from what you said yesterday, what 
we are referring to the Department of Justice — first of all, on the 
matter of the false statement made to Mr. Reid in 194G, that is, the 
denial of possession of these documents in his home, which turned out 
to be an untruthful denial, according to Mr. Reid's testimony, that 
would be barred by the statute of limitations, and therefore we were 
not going to refer that, even though if not barred it would be a false 
statement in a matter pending before a Government agency. 

However, we were going to refer, according to what you said. No. 1, 
the question of false statements made to the Federal Bureau of Inves- 
tigation in the first interview, and failure to disclose, in response to 
questions, information concerning the Young Communist League 
activities of Rosenberg and of himself. 

No. 2, the direct contradiction in testimony concerning member- 
ship by Mr. Coleman in the YCL, in view of the sworn statement of 
Mr. Sussman yesterday. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 113 

And, No. 3, the direct contradictions in testimony concerning the 
extent of the association between Mr. Coleman and Julius Rosenberg. 

That still leaves open the question of the Sobell matter and the 
statements made in the recommendations given by Mr. Coleman for 
Mr. Sobell, and we have not seen an original copy of that yet. 

The Chairman. Mr. Cohn, unless you have a living witness on the 
Eosenberg association, the record at this time would not be such that 
you could prove any point ? 

Mr. CoHN. I assume that the Department of Justice is not going to 
determine that merely on the record we send them. They are going 
to take that as a start and, with the aid of the FBI investigation, 
build from there and determine what the facts are. When they have 
completed a full investigation and talked to all of the people, they 
will present the matter to the grand jury for a determination. 

To answer your last question, Mr. Chairman, we do have Mr. Shoiket 
and Mr. Sevitsky, who are also named as members of the Young 
Communist League by Mr. Sussman yesterday. I think Mr. Shoiket 
is here, but I assume we can't reach him this morning, and I know 
there is some more material we want to go over with him in executive 
session. May he appear in executive session in room 357 at 3 o'clock 
this afternoon, and may Mr. Shoiket and Mr. Sevitsky be heard in 
open session tomorrow morning? 

The Chairman. And, Mr. Green, I assume that your client will 
want to be here to hear all of the testimony concerning him. He does 
not have to be here and he is not being ordered to be here, but he nat- 
urally has the right to be here if he cares to listen to the testimony. 

Mr. Green. Senator, your original statement was addressed to me, 
insofar as you went, which related to the same matter you mentioned 
to me in the second executive session ; am I correct in that ? 

The Chairman. I do not recall what we discussed in the second 
executive session and what I addressed to you in the second executive 
session. 

Mr. Green. I appreciate your courtesy in addressing me, but I think 
it calls for no reply from me. 

The Chairman. I think that is right. 

Mr. Cohn. If you and Mr. Coleman decide not to be here, we will 
be very glad to furnish you promptly with a transcript of the testi- 
mony of those witnesses. That will be done. 

The Chairman. It will not be furnished at the committee's expense. 
If you want a copy of the testimony, you will have to order it from 
the reporter. The committee is operating on a very close budget, and 
we cannot pay for that transcript of testimony for you. 

(Wliereupon, at 1 : 45 p. m,, the hearing was recessed until 10 a. m., 
Thursday, December 10, 1953.) 



APPENDIX 



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INDEX 

Page 
Adams, John 70, 71, 73-76, 83, 86 

Adjutant (Fort Monmouth, N. J.) 80 

AIEE (publication) 98 

Air Force (United States) 98,110 

Antiaircraft (Marine Corps, radar officer) 107,110 

Army (United States) 69-71, 74^-76, 82, 83, 88, 93, 94, 98, 100, 101 

Army Air Force 98 

Army Intelligence (G-2) 69, 79, 82, 83, 93, 94, 98, 100, 101 

Army Loyalty Board 75 

Army regulations 82 

Attorney General (United mates) 78 

Bradley Beach 100 

Bronx, N. Y 114 

Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute 77 

Brown , 100 

Brown, T 114 

Bureau of Ordnance (Navy Department) 114 

Camp Lejeune (Marine Corps School) 108 

City College of New York 91, 103, 105 

Close Cooperation Set, Secret (document No. 6) 97 

Coleman, Aaron Hyman 70-76, 114 

Testimony of 77-113 

Communist Party 73, 76, 85, 89-94, 99, 104^-107, 110-112 

Communist Party (United States) 73, 76, 89-94, 99, 105-107, 110-112 

Communist Russia 85, 86 

Comparative Technical Characteristics of Various Radar Sets — Secret 

(secret documents) 106 

Confidential documents 81, 86, 99, 108, 110 

Congress 71 

Cornell, Lester 109 

Curewitz, Sydney 114 

Davega City 114 

Department of the Army 75 

Department of Justice 92, 111, 112 

Directive (existing) 70 

Director (Laboratory, Fort Monmouth) 80 

Document No. 6 (Close Cooperation Set, Secret) 97 

Document (confidential) 81, 86, 99, 108, 110 

Documents (restricted) 81 

Documents (secret) 80-84, 86, 96-101, 105-107, 109, 110 

Documents (top secret) 80 

Eatontown, N. J 69 

Eisenhower, President 74, 76 

Electronics (publication) 98 

Elizabeth, N. J 77, 79 

Employment application (Morton Sobell) 114 

Espionage Act 82, 111, 112 

Evans Sijmal Laboratory (Fort Monmouth, N. J.) 70, 87, 93, 110, 111 

FBI report on Coleman (1951) 73-75 

Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 73-75, 77, 92-95, 105, 112 

Finland incident 99 

First Army Loyalty Board 75, 88, 103 

Fister 83 

Fort Monmouth, N. J 69-75, 80, 87, 89-91, 93, 94, 101, 102, 105, 110, 111 

G-2 (Army Intelligence) 69, 79, 82, 83, 93, 94, 98, 100, 101 



n INDEX 

Page 

General Electric Co 87-89, 114 

Government defense activities 99 

Government Printing Office 110 

Government project engineer 88 

Government of the United States 87, 88, 93, 99, 105-107 

Green, Richard F 77, 79, 84, 112, 113 

Ground radar 85, 86 

Inspection agency (Signal Corps) 89 

Inspector (Signal Corps) 89, 90 

Intelligence (G-2, Army) 69, 79, 82, 83, 93, 94, 98, 100, 101 

Intelligence (Naval) 94, 95 

IRE (publication) 98 

Japan 107 

Jurist, David 114 

Justice Department 92, 111, 112 

Kotike, Berman 114 

Laboratories, Signal Corps (Fort Monmouth, N. J.) 73 

Levitsky, Joseph 87 

Long Branch, N. J 90 

Marine Corps 81, 85, 94, 100, 103, 108, 110 

Marine Corps (Watson Laboratories) 87, 109, 110 

Marine Corps radar officer 107, 108 

Marine Corps School (Camp Lejeune) 108 

Marine radar 84, 107, 108 

MIT 110, 111 

Naval Intelligence 94, 95 

Navy Department (Bureau of Ordnance) 114 

NevF York City 114 

New York City College 91, 103, 105 

O'Hara 114 

Okun, Jack 87, 95 

Ordnance Bureau (Navy Department) 114 

Pacific (war against Japan) 107, 108 

Panama i 90 

Pentagon 75,110 

Port-au-Peck, N. J 114 

President of the United States 71, 74, 76 

President's directive 71 

Radar 78, 80, 84-87, 96-98, 102, 106-110 

Radar antiaircraft 110 

Radar detection system 98 

Radar fii-e control 108 

Radar officer (Marine Corps) 107, 110 

Radar sets 106 

Radar war 107 

Reeves Instrument Co 87, 88, 114 

Reid, Andrew J 78, 82, 83, 101, 104, 112 

Testimony of 69-77, 79 

Report on Coleman (FBI, 1951) 73-75 

Research Laboratory Special Report (secret document) 106 

Restricted documents 81 

Rome, N. Y 87, 109, 110 

Rosenberg, Julius 73, 74, 89-95, 103-106, 112 

Rosenl)erg trial 74, 92, 112 

Rosmovsky, I'eter 109 

Russia 99, 107, 114 

Sachs, Harry 99, 100, 103 

Schenectady, N. Y 114 

Secret documents 80-84, 86, 96-101, 105-107, 109, 110 

Secretary of the Army 74 

Secretary's screening board (Army) 76 

Security officer (Fort Monmouth, N. J.) 76 

Senate of the United States 117 

Sevitsky, Mr 113 



INDEX III 

Page 
Shoiket, Mr 113 

Signal Corps (records) 97 

Signal Corps inspection agency 89 

Signal Corps inspector 89, 90 

Signal Corps laboratories (Fort Monmouth, N. J.) 73 

Sobell, Beverly 114 

Sobell, Helen 114 

Sobell, Morton 87-89, 103, 112, 114 

Sobell, Hose 114 

Stevens, Mr 76 

Study of Automatic Weapons Fire Control Systems (confidential docu- 
ment) 108 

Summary of Military Characteristics for Equipment as Used by the Army 

Air Force — Secret (secret document) 98 

Sussman, Nathan 90, 91, 103-106, 113 

Technical Report, Translation of the Military Requirement of Range in the 

Technical Specifications of Radar (secret document) 98 

Tepper, Mr 94 

Top-secret documents 80 

Translation of the Military Requirement of Range in the Technical Speci- 
fications of Radar, Technical Report (secret document) 98 

Truman order (194S) 71, 74, 76 

United States Army 69-71, 74-76, 82, 83, 88, 93, 94, 98, 100, 101 

United States Government 87, 88, 93, 99, 105-107 

United States Marine Corps 81, 85, 94, 100, 103, 108. 110 

United States President 71, 74 

United States Senate 117 

University of Michigan 114 

Washington, D. C 114 

Watson Laboratories (Marine Corps, Rome, N. Y.) 87, 109, 110 

White, Albert 109 

White, Harry Dexter 74 

Whiz pass 82, 95-97 

Tereal, T 114 

Toung Communist League (YCL) 73, 74, 89-95, 104, 105, 110, 112, 113 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS— SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 



HEARINGS 

BEFORE THE 

PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON 
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON 

GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 
UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-THIKD CONGRESS 

riEST SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

S. Res. 40 



PART 3 



DECEMBER 10 AND 11, 1953 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
40558 WASHINGTON : 1954 



Boston Public Library 
Superintendent of Documents 

APR 7 - 1954 



COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 

JOSEPH R. McCarthy, Wisconsin, Chairman 
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAND, Arkansas 

MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota 

HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idalio HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 

EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts 
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 

CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LBNNON, North Carolina 

Francis D. Flanagan, Chief Counsel 
Walter L. Retxoldss, ChieJ Clerk 



Permanent Subco.\imittee ox Investigations 

JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman 

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota 
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois 
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan 

Roy M. Cohn, Chief Counsel 
Frances P. Carr, Executive Director 
II 



CONTENTS 



Page 

Index I 

Testimony of — 

Percoff, Joseph H 133 

Sarant, Louise 143 

Shoiket. Henry N 124 

Ullmann, Marcel 115 

III 



•■•tv'.l I 



AEMY SIGNAL CORPS— SUBVEESION AND ESPIONAGE 



THURSDAY, DECEMBER 10, 1953 

United States Senate, 
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the 
Committee on Government Operations, 

Washington^ D. G. 

The subcommittee met (pursuant to S. Res. 40, agreed to January 
30, 1953) at 10:40 a. m., in the caucus room of the Senate Office 
Building, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy (chairman of the subcom- 
mittee) presiding. 

Present : Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin. 

Present also: Francis P. Carr, executive director; Thomas W. 
LaVenia, assistant counsel ; Daniel G. Buckley, assistant counsel ; and 
Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk. 

The Chairman. We will proceed. 

Mr. Marcel Ullmann. 

Will you raise your right hand and be sworn ? 

In the matter now in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly 
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God? 

Mr. Ullmann. I do; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I may say the staff has been asked to subpena Mr. 
Telford Taylor, known as General Taylor, and we have checked with 
the Civil Service Commission and find that his file has been flagged 
on loyalty grounds, and we find unusual activities he has engaged in, 
and we find he has interested himself very greatly in this investiga- 
tion of espionage at Fort Monmouth. Some of his associations would 
indicate that he may be able to give us some information of value on 
that case. 

Before calling him, we doublechecked to make sure that his file is 
flagged and that he is ineligible himself to get a job in any Govern- 
ment agency at this time. I understand he is retired, and we are 
going to see if he is getting a pension or in what way the Government 
is supporting him. 

TESTIMONY OF MARCEL ULLMANN 

The Chairman. Mr. Ullmann, will you give the reporter your full 
name? 

Mr. Ullmann. My name is Marcel Ullmann. 

The Chairman. How do you spell that? 

Mr. Ullmann. U-1-l-m-a-n-n. 

The Chairman. You are not working at Fort Monmouth as of 
today and have not worked there for a number of years ; is that cor- 
rect? 

115 



116 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mi\ Ullmann. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. When was the hist time you worked at Fort Mon- 
mouth ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I can't recall the exact date. 

The Ch^virman. The year? 

Mr. Ullmann. It was about 6 years ago I should say, about 1947. 

The Chairman. Wlien did you start working in the Signal Corps 
lab? 

Mr. Ullmanx. Just prior to the outbreak of the war; I believe it 
was December 1941. 

The Chairman. Would you prefer not having the cameramen 
there? 

Mr. Ullmann. I guess it doesn't matter, sir. 

The Ch^virman. In what year did you say? 

Mr. Ullmann. I believe it was December 1941, just prior to Pearl 
Harbor. 

The Chairman. Now, at the time you were working at Fort INIon- 
mouth, up until 1947, were you at any time supplying information to 
any members of the Rosenberg spy ring? 

Mr. Ullmann. I must decline to answer, sir, on my constitutional 
rights. 

The Chairman. Do you feel if you were to tell us the truth in an- 
swer to that question, that your answer might tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. Ullmann. I know that the Constitution states that a witness 
may not be compelled or a man may not be compelled to be a witness 
against himself, and on that basis I must respectfully decline to an- 
swer. 

The Chaibman. The fifth amendment provides that you need not 
answer any question if you feel a truthful answer might tend to in- 
criminate you, and I am asking you the simple question now : Do you 
feel that if you were to truthfully answer that question, the answer 
might tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. Ullmann. I don't know what application you put to the fifth 
amendment, sir ; I happen to have a copy of the Constitution with me, 
and may I quote, sir, that the fifth amendment provides — I will take 
the pertinent part. 

The Chairman. I will not hear any reading by you of the Con- 
stitution until I first ask you this question : Do you belong to an or- 
ganization or liave you belonged to an organization which taught the 
destruction of the Constitution? 

Mr. Ullmann. I must decline to answer on the grounds I have just 
stated. 

The Chairman. Well, we see this happen every day; we see you 
Conununists come before us and take advantage of a provision of 
the Constitution which you are trying to destroy. I am going to 
order you to answer the question unless you will tell me that you 
feel that a truthful answer in your opinion would tend to incriminate 
you. That is the only ground upon which you can refuse to answer. 

Mr. Ullmann. Sir, I only know the fact that I can understand, 
and to me the wording of the fifth amendment is very clear and 
j)recise. 

The Chairman. Will you have the record show that the Avitness 
on three different occasions has been given the opportunity to tell the 
Chair whether or not he feels his answer would tend to incriminate 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 117 

him, and lie refuses to answer that simple question, and therefore 
he has no right to answer the original question on the basis of the fifth 
amendment. Therefore, you are ordered to answer the question. 

Mr. Ullmanx. I repeat, sir, that the Constitution states that no one 
shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself. 
I must respectfully decline to answer. 

The Chairman. Were you engaged in espionage during the time 
you were working in the Signal Corps laboratories at Fort 
Monmouth ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I must decline to answer, sir, on the reason pre- 
viously stated. 

The CiiAiRMAx. Have you been, as recently as September 15 of this 
year, in contact with people working at Fort Monmouth, obtaining 
classified information from them and passing that classified infor- 
mation on to Communist espionage agents? 

Mr. Ullmann. Sir, I must decline to answer that for the reason 
stated previously. 

The Chairman. Do you feel that a truthful answer might tend to 
incriminate you 'i 

Mr. Ullmann. I repeat, sir, I must decline to answer that on the 
grounds I have stated, that a man cannot be compelled to be a witness 
against himself. 

The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question. 

Mr. Ullmann. I repeat, sir, the Constitution states that it is my 
prerogative not to answer and not to be compelled to answer or be 
a witness against myself. The Constitution states that a man may 
not be compelled to be a witness against himself. 

The ChxMRMan. Just so there can be no claim at some future legal 
proceeding that you did not understand what was going on here, let 
us have the record clear that you Avere advised on a number of 
occasions by this Chair that j^ou were entitled to have legal counsel 
here, and you were advised we would give you all the time you wanted 
to get a lawyer ; and we gave you an acljournment in New York for that 
purpose, and you came back without legal counsel. And in view of 
the fact that you do not have legal counsel here, the Chair has 
advised you that you have no right to refuse under the fifth amend- 
ment of the Constitution unless you first tell the Chair that you 
feel that your answer might tend to incriminate you. 

You have refused to do that, and for that reason the Chair has 
ordered you to answer. And let us have the record show that the 
witness persists in his refusal. 

I would suggest that you obtain u lawyer, and your case will be 
submitted to the Senate for contempt action, and I assume that the 
Justice Department will present it to the grand jury for indictment. 

Do j-^ou imderstand, if you have not been engaged in espionage in 
the last couple of weeks, you could merely say, "Xo, I was not," and 
that could not incriminate you ? The only basis upon which you can 
refuse is that the answer would tend to incriminate you. 

Let me ask you another question : Did you know Aaron Coleman at 
the time you were at Fort Monmouth ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I must respectfully decline to answ-er on the grounds 
I have stated. 



118 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

The Chairman. Do you feel that a truthful answer to the question 
of whether or not you knew Aaron Coleman might tend to incrimi- 
ate you ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I must repeat that the Constitution states that a 
man cannot be compelled to be a witness against himself. 

The Chairman. You are then ordered to answer the question of 
whether or not you knew Aaron Coleman at the time you were work- 
ing at Fort Monmouth. 

Mr. Ullmann. I repeat, sir, that it is my constitutional right not 
to be a witness against myself. 

The Chairman. Now, Coleman was in here yesterday, and it ap- 
pears that he had been removing secret and other classified material 
from the Fort Monmouth and other laboratories, and there is a seri- 
ous question as to what he was doing with that material. Was any of 
that material ever given to you for transmission to a Communist 
espionage agent ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I must decline to answer, sir, on the grounds stated. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Ullmann, you understand, of course, 
being a friend of Coleman's when you give that answer, if you are 
honest in feeling that would incriminate you, you are definitely in- 
criminating Coleman ? Do you understand that ? 

Mr. Ullmann. You are assuming, sir, that I am a friend of Cole- 
man or that I knew Coleman. 

The Chairman. Are you a friend of Coleman's ? 

Mr. Ullmann. Sir, I must decline to answer on the grounds stated. 

The Chairman. Do you feel that if you were to tell us whether or 
not you were a close friend of Aaron Coleman's, that answer would 
tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I am sorry, sir, I must decline to answer again on 
the grounds stated. 

The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question then as to 
whether or not you were a close friend of Aaron Coleman. Will you 
desist while I am asking the question. 

Mr. Ullmann. I am sorry. 

The Chairman. You are ordered then to answer the question of 
whether or not you knew Aaron Coleman, for the reason you are 
not entitled to any fifth-amendment privilege when you refuse to state 
whether or not you feel the answer would tend to incriminate you. 

Mr. Ullmann. Sir, it is my understanding that the fifth amend- 
ment of the Constitution implies no guilt as such, and it is protecting 
the innocent as well as the guilty, and I am invoking the fifth amend- 
ment so that nothing I can say may be in any way testimony against 
myself. 

The Chairsian. No; the Fifth Amendment is for the purpose of 
providing a man who is guilty of a crime that he need not send him- 
self to jail. If I ask you the question, "Are you a member of the 
Communist Party today?", if you are not, by saying "No" you can- 
not be incriminated. You do have the privilege, if you have been 
engaging in espionage work, as you very obviously have been, you are 
entitled to refuse to answer, because under our Constitution even 
though you were trying to destroy it, even though you belonged to 
an organization for years that has been trying to destroy it, you are 
still entitled to the protection of that (constitution. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 119 

Let US have it very clear when you say, "I refuse to answer be- 
cause if I were to tell the truth it would incriminate me," you are 
giving the committee and the country some information. Of course, 
it cannot be used against you in a criminal trial. 

Up until at least 10 days ago, were you on the payroll of the 
Communist Party? 

Mr. Ullmann. Sir, I decline to answer that question on the grounds 
that a man cannot be compelled to be a witness against himself. 

The Chairman. Do you feel if you were to answer the question 
as to whether or not up to 10 days ago you were on the payroll of 
the Communist Party, that that answer might tend to incriminate 
you? 

Mr. Ullmann. I repeat, sir, that the Constitution provides that 
a man may not be compelled to be a witness against himself. 

The Chairman. Did you organize a Communist Party unit or 
cell known as the Shore Club unit of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Ullmann. Sir, I must decline to answer on the grounds that 
a man cannot be compelled to be a witness against himself. 

The Chairman. Do you feel if you were to tell us the truth in 
answer to that question, the answer might tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. Ullmann. I repeat, sir, that the Constitution provides that 
a man may not be compelled to be a witness against himself. 

The Chairman. You are then ordered to answer the question of 
whether or not you organized a unit or cell of the Communist Party 
known as the Shore Club ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I must decline, sir, on the grounds that a man 
cannot be compelled to be a witness against himself. 

The Chairman. Was the purpose of that Shore Club unit of the 
Communist Party to infiltrate the employees at Fort Monmouth for 
espionage purposes ? 

Mr. Ullmann. Again, sir, I must decline to answer on the grounds 
that a can cannot be compelled to testify against himself. 

The Chairman. You are ordered to answer unless you inform 
the Chair that you feel that your answer might tend to incriminate 
you. 

Mr. Ullmann. I repeat, sir, that the Constitution states that a 
man cannot be compelled to be a witness against himself. 

The Chairman. Wliere were you born ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I was born in Brooklyn. 

The Chairman. What have you against this country ? 

Mr. Ullmann. Nothing at all, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you feel that a Communist system of govern- 
ment would be of benefit to this country ? 

Mr. Ullmann. No ; I don't think I do. 

The Chairman. You are going to incriminate yourself with the 
Communist Party if you are not careful then. 

Do you feel that our system is better than the Communist system ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I think it is by far, and there has never been another 
system like it. 

The Chairman. Do you know that the Communist Party is dedi- 
cated to the overthrow of this Government by force and violence ? 

4055S — 54— pt. 3 2 



120 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Ullmanx. That, sir, I must decline to answer on the grounds 
that a man cannot be compelled to be a witness against himself. 

The Chaii?man. Did you organize a cell and give speeches at cell 
meetings, advocating the overthrow of this Government by force and 
violence and the establishment of a Communist system in this country ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I must decline, sir, to answer that on the grounds 
stated. 

The Chairman. Now. as a matter of fact, j'ou gave any number of 
speeches to this Communist unit known as the Shore Club, did you not? 
And in those speeches did you not preach the Communist doctrine, the 
necessity of the destruction of this Government by force and violence? 

Mr, UiXMANX. Sir, I must decline to answer that under the pro- 
visions of the fifth, that a man cannot be compelled to be a witness 
against himself. 

The Chairman. When was the last time you contacted any present 
employees at Fort IMonmouth, N. J., the secret radar laboratories, for 
the purpose of obtaining information from them? 

Mr. Ullmann. Sir, I must decline to answer that on the grounds 
stated. 

The Chairman. A^Hien was the last time j^ou received money from 
the Communist Party in connection with your espionage activities ? 

Mr. Ulliviann. Sir, again I must repeat I must decline to answer 
that on the grounds stated that a man cannot be comjielled to be a wit- 
ness against himself. 

The Chairman. Do you know a Bob Martin ? 

Mr. Ullmann. Beg pardon. 

The Chairman. Do you know a man known as Bob Martin ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I must decline to answer that, sir, on the grounds 
stated. 

The CiL\iRMAN. As a matter of fact you received secret documents 
from Bob Martin and you were the courier who transmitted those 
documents to a member of a Communist espionage group, is not that 
correct ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I must decline to answer that, sir, on the gi'ounds 
stated, that a man cannot be compelled to be a witness against himself. 

The Chairman. During all of the time you worked in the radar 
laboratories, were you a member of an espionage group ? 

Mr. UiJLMANN. I must decline to answer that, sir, on the grounds 

7 7 ^5 

stated, that a man cannot be compelled to be a witness against himself. 

The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question unless you 
inform the Chair that you feel that your answer might tend to incrim- 
inate you. 

Mr. Ultjmann. Again I rejieat the Constitution states that a man 
cannot be compelled to be a witness against himself, and there are no 
ramification to the statement of the fifth. 

The Chairman. IIow often did you visit the home of Julius 
Rosenberg? 

Mr. Ullmann. Sir, I must decline to answer that on the grounds 
stated. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 121 

The Chairman. How often did you go to the apartment of Aaron 
Coleman in the year 1946 ? 

Mr. UiXMANX, Again, sir, I nuist decline to answer that on the 
grounds stated. 

The Chairman. We have had testimony here that Coleman had 
in his apartment a sizable nmnber of classified documents in 1946, 
and Army intelligence raided the apartment and removed some 40, 
and he testified at times he had other documents which he took to his 
apartment and returned to the laboratories. During the time that 
he had any of those secret or confidential documents in his apartment, 
did you visit the apartment and obtain from him any of those docu- 
ments or notes from the documents ? 

Mr. Ullmann. Again, sir, I must decline to answer on the grounds 
stated. 

The Chairman. Do you feel if you were to answer that question, the 
answer might tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I recognize, sir, that the Constitution states that 
a man may not be compelled to testify against himself. 

The Chairman. And you feel you would be testifying against 
yourself ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I feel that any answer I may give may be in the 
nature of testimony against myself. 

The Chairman. In other words, you feel if you were to answer 
that question it would be testimony against yourself? 

Mr. Ullmann. Sir, I repeat, the Constitution states tliat a man 
may not be compelled to testify against himself. 

The Chairman. Will you have the record show the Chair has 
asked the witness repeatedly whether or not he feels tliat if he were 
to answer he would be testifying against himself, tliat seems to be 
the formula he repeats ; he refuses to tell the Chair whether or not he 
feels this Avould be testifying against himself. Therefore he is or- 
dered to answer the question. And I assume you persist in your 
refusal. 

Have the record show that the witness sits nuite and makes no 
answer. 

Mr. Ullmann. I beg pardon. I did not undei'stand tliat you were 
addressing that to me, and I thought you were addressing that to one 
of your aides. Will you kindly repeat the question ? 

The Chairman. The reporter will repeat the question. 

Mr. Ullmann. Sir, I feel that my answer to that question would be 
in the nature of testimony against myself, and as such I must — and I 
am most reluctant to do so, sir, and I have been right along — ^liowever, 
I must avail myself of the provisions of the fifth amendment which, 
from what I understand of it, does not imply either guilt or innocence, 
but protects a man in conditions like these; and I therefore must de- 
cline to answer on the grounds stated that a man may not be compelled 
to be a witness against himself. 

The Chairman. Now you are taking advantage of our Constitution. 

Mr. Ullmann. I am proud of the Constitution, sir. 

The Chairman. Please let me finish. 



122 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Ullmann. I am sorry. 

The Chairman. You have been taking advantage of our Constitu- 
tion, and I will ask you this simple question now : Is it not true that 
you repeatedly appeared before the Communist unit which you helped 
organized known as the Shore Club, where you personally advocated 
the destruction of the Constitution and the establishment of a Com- 
munist system here by force and violence? Is that correct? 

Mr. Ullmann. Sir, may I state 

The Chairman. You may just answer that question. 

Mr. Ullmann. That I will 

The Chairman. Did you or did you not? 

Mr. Ullmann. Sir, I must decline to answer on the grounds stated, 
but I may remark 

The Chairman. I will hear no lecture from you if you refuse to 
answer whether you have made speeches advocating the destruction of 
the Constitution on which you are relying today. 

All of the evidence indicates that you have been active over just 
as long a period of time as Julius Rosenberg and involved in the same 
type of filthy activities against your country, the country which has 
treated you rather well. Rosenberg has been executed, and you are 
walking the streets free. Do you not feel that if Rosenberg was 
properly executed, you deserve the same fate ? 

]\Ir. Ullmann. Sir, in answer to that, I would not willingly do 
harm to this country in any manner. But the question is that a part 
of the Constitution — I would not overthrow it — and I must decline 
to answer that question on the grounds stated. 

The Chairman. You say you would not overthrow it. Have you 
repeatedly given lectures advocating the overthrow of this Govern- 
ment ? 

Mr. Ullmann. Sir, I must decline to answer that on the grounds 
stated. 

The Chairman. At these lectures to the Shore Club and during 
your solicitation of people to join it, did you not state that it was one 
of the objectives of that club to infiltrate key spots in the Signal 
Corps laboratories at Fort Monmouth ? 

Mr, Ullmann. Will you repeat that, sir? That is rather lengthy, 
and I could not follow it. 

The Chairman. The reporter will read it to you. 

(Question read by the reporter.) 

Mr. Ullmann. Sir, I must decline to answer that on the grounds 
stated. 

The Chairman. Did you go to Fort Monmouth within the last 
month and meet an individual employed there and receive material 
from him ? 

Mr. Ullmann. Sir, I must decline to answer that on the grounds 
stated. 

The Chairman. You were never suspended or fired from the Signal 
Cori)s, were you ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I must decline to answer that, sir, on the grounds 
stated. 

The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer. 

Mr. Ullmann. I must decline. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 123 

The Chairman. That is a matter of record. 

Mr. Uluviann. I beg pardon. 

The Chairman. It is a matter of record whether you were sus- 
pended or fired from the Signal Corps and you are ordered to ansv er. 

Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Is the answer yes, you were suspended? 

Mr. Ullmann. I was suspended. 

The Chairman. From the Signal Corps or from the Air Corps? 
It is actually a fact you were suspended from the Air Corps and not 
from the Signal Corps, is that correct ? 

Mr. Ullmann. That is right. 

The Chairman. You were suspended from your work in the Air 
Corps, and you then went to work for the Signal Corps, and you 
never were suspended at the Signal Corps, is that correct ? 

Mr. Ullmann. Will you repeat that, sir ? 

The Chairman. You worked for the Air Corps for a while and 
you worked for the Signal Corps for a while, and you voluntarily 
resigned from the Signal Corps, but you were suspended from your 
work at the Air Corps, is that correct ? 

You will be ordered to answer the question. ^ 

Mr. Ullmann. I am trying to follow you, sir. 

The Chairman. Let me ask you this simple question: Were you 
suspended from your work while you were working for the Air 
Corps? 

Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir ; I was suspended at the time I was workmg 
for the Air Forces. 

The Chairman. Did you voluntarily resign from the Signal Corps 
or were you suspended at the Signal Corps ? 

Mr, Ullmann. Neither, sir. There was a transfer in force from 
the Signal Corps to the Air Force at the time, and that was previous 
to that time. 

The Chairman. In other words, you were transferred to another 
job from the Signal Corps? 

Mr. Ullmann. No, sir ; a new laboratory was activated, if I can re- 
call, whether that term is correct, let us assume it is ; that is, a new 
branch of the laboratory was originated under the auspices of the Air 
Force, and a good number of personnel from the Signal Corps were 
transferred en masse to the new establishment. 

The Chairman. Just to simplify this, you were working for the 
Signal Corps, and then you were transferred to Watson Laboratories, 
which was taken over by the Air Corps, and Watson Laboratories was 
also doing secret and other classified work. Wlien you were trans- 
ferred to the Air Corps, the Air Corps suspended you after you were 
transferred to the Air Corps, is that correct ? 

Mr. Ullmann. Well, subsequently, after a considerable period, of 
2 years possibly. 

The Chairman. And during all of the time you were working 
at the Signal Corps laboratories and at Watson Lab, that is the Air 
Corps lab, were you engaged in espionage and part of an active espio- 
nage ring? 

Mr. Ullmann. That, sir, I must decline to answer on the grounds 
that a man may not be compelled to be a witness against himself. 

The Chairman. Will you give us the names of the other people who 
belonged to the Shore Club with you ? 



124 ARMT SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Ullmann. Tluit, sir, I nuist decline to answer on the grounds 
stated. 

The Chairman. Do you feel that an answer to that question would 
tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Ullmann. I repeat, sir, a man may not be compelled to be a 
witness against himself. 

The Chairman. You may ste]) down; and you will consider your- 
self under subpena, subject to call. 

We will call Mr. Shoiket. 

Mr. Katz. May I request that no pictures be taken of my client? 

The Chairman. No pictures w^ill be taken. The rule of the com- 
mittee is that none will be taken where the witness requests his picture 
not to be taken. 

Mr. Katz. Thank you very much for the courtesy. 

The Chairman. That includes both the still cameras and the others. 

Will the witness stand and raise his right hand ? 

In the matter now in hearing before this committee, do you solemnly 
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God ? 

Mr. Shoiket. Yes, sir, I do. 

TESTIMONY OF HENRY N. SHOIKET (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 
ATTORNEY, SIDNEY L. KATZ, NEW YORK, N. Y.) 

Mr. Carr. Your name is Henry Shoiket? 

Mr. Shoiket. That is correct. 

Mr. Carr. How do you spell the last name? 

Mr. Shoiket. S-h-o-i-k-e-t. 

Mr. Carr. What is vour present address, Mr. Shoiket? 

Mr. Shoiket. It is 1337 - 55th Street, Brooklyn, N. Y. 

Mr. Carr. Where are you presently emj^loyed ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I am presently employed at the Lawson Machinery 
Corp., New York City. 

Mr. Carr. Is that Manhattan ? 

Mr. Shoiket. That is correct. 

Mr. Carr. What is the address of that place ? 

Mr. Shoiket. 426 West 33d Street, and they are manufacturers of 
papercutting machinery and machinery for the printing industry. 

Mr. Carr. They do no Government work at this time ? 

Mr. Shoiket. They do no Government work, although some of 
their machines may have been sold to the Government. 

Mr. Carr. Where were you educated, Mr. Shoiket ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I was educated in the Brooklyn public schools and 
then at the College of the City of New York, and subsequently at 
Penn State College. 

Mr. Carr. You were graduated from the College of the City of 
New York in the class of 1939 ? 

Mr. Shoiket. That is correct. 

Mr. Carr. Were you a classmate of Julius Rosenberg? 

Mr. Shoiket. He went to school at the time that I did, yes, sir. 

Mr. Carr. How well did you know Julius Rosenberg? 

Mr. Shoiket. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of 
the fifth amendment. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 125 

Mi\ Carr. Did Julius Eosenberg ever take you to a Young Com- 
munist League meeting ? 

Mr, Shoiket. I refuse to answer this question. 

Mr. Cakr. Did you ever join the Young Communist League? 

Mr. Shoiket. I refuse to answer questions of this sort on the 
grounds of the first amendment as well as the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Carr. You never attended a meeting of the Young Communist 
League? 

Ml". Shoiket. I refuse to answer this question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Carr. Did you know Aaron Coleman at CCNY? 

Mr. Shoiket. When his name appeared recently in the newspapers, 
in my recollection I associated that name with a person who probably 
went to City College at about the same time as I did, but my recol- 
lection is rather vague. I was here at the open hearings yesterday, 
and his face was even less familiar than the name. 

Mr. Carr. He was in your class, but you say now 

Mr. Shoiket. I thinl? he was, and I am not certain; the name 
strikes some sort of recollection in my mind, but that is about all. 

Mr. Carr, Do you recall now after having seen him that you at- 
tended any Young Communist League meetings with him? 

Mr. Shoiket. I have stated to you that I recall only a vague recol- 
lection of his name as having occurred to me before, probably when 
I was at City College. 

The Chairman. You do not recall having attended any Young 
Communist League meetings with him ? 

Mr, Shoiket, I don't recall having had anything to do with Aaron 
Coleman. 

The Chairman. How about Julius Kosenberg ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I refuse to answer regarding any association with 
Julius Rosenberg on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Carr. Have you seen Julius Rosenberg since college days? 

Mr. Shoiket. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Carr. Did you see Julius Rosenberg during any period from 
your college days until his subsequent execution ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Carr. At no time ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Carr, You at one time worked for the Government ? 

Mr, Shoiket, Yes, I did, 

Mr. Carr, In what department ? 

Mr. Shoiket, I worked for the Navy Department as an engineer. 

Mr, Carr, Was that in Brooklyn ? 

Mr, Shoiket, In Brooklyn, as well as Mare Island, 

Mr. Carr. What were the years of that employment? 

Mr. Shoiket. You will forgive me if I make a mistake of a few 
months here or there; I think that I worked in the Brooklyn Navy 
Yard either from the end of 1940 or the beginning of 1941 until about 
1943, and then was transferred at the Navy's request to the west coast 
where I worked until I think 1947 or thereabouts. 

The Chairman. How old were you then ? 

Mr. Shoiket. Wlien, sir ? 

The Chairman. Let us take 1941. 



126 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Shoiket. In 1941 that would make me 23 years old. 

The Chairman. Could you tell us why you were deferred from 
military duty? 

Mr. Shoiket. I was deferred from military duty because of the 
work that I was doing for the Navy, which the Navy considered to be 
of service to the war. 

The Chairman. Were you a Communist at that time ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I refuse to discuss questions of Communist associa- 
tion on the grounds of the fifth and first amendments. 

The Chairman. The question is : Were you a Communist ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I refuse to answer this question, sir. 

The Chairman. On the grounds of self incrimination ? 

Mr. Shoiket. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you feel if you were to answer that question, 
the answer might tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I feel that answers to this question may in some 
remote way incriminate me. 

The CHAnoiAN, Might incriminate you? 

Mr. Shoiket. That is correct, sir. 

The Chairman. If you feel it might incriminate you, you can 
refuse. 

Mr. Shoiket. I don't know the mechanism precisely, but the tend- 
ency is there. 

The Chairman. Then you are ordered to answer. 

Mr. Shoiket. Sir, I feel the answer to this question will tend to 
incriminate me. 

Mr. Carr. The work that you were doing, Mr. Shoiket, at the 
Brooklyn Navy Yard and then later at Mare Island Navy Yard, in 
California, was that of a classified nature ? 

Mr. Shoiket. Let me take that up in two halves, if I may. 

Mr. Carr. Well, was it electrical work ? 

Mr. Shoiket. Please. You asked a question regarding my work 
at two places. 

Mr. Carr. Tell us about the Brooklyn work. 

Mr. Shoiket. To the best of my recollection perhaps 99.9 percent, 
if not 100, of the work was of a restricted but not of confidential 
nature, of no classification higher than restricted. I may be wrong, 
and there may be a single incident or two when some document ap- 
peared which was of higher classification than restricted, but I don't 
recall it. At the Mare Island Navy Yard I was working on work 
which involved classifications of confidential. 

Mr. Carr. Was there work of a higher classification being performed 
at eitlier of these places during the time of your employment, to your 
knowledge ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I should think so. 

The Chairman. Did you know any members of the Communist 
Party who were working at either of the installations you have 
mentioned ? 

Mr. Shoiket. Sir, I refuse to answer questions regarding the Com- 
munist Party on the grounds previously stated. 

The Chairman. Did you ever belong to the Bund ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I did not. 

The Chairman. You never belonged to the Nazi Party ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I did not. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 127 

The Chairman. Did you ever belong to the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I refuse to answer any questions regarding Com- 
munist association. 

The Chairman. Did a member of the Communist Party help you 
get your deferment from the Army ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Shoiket. Sir, repeat that question ? 

My deferment from the Army, sir, was obtained by my stating to 
my draft board exactly the nature of the work that I was doing, and 
the draft board to my recollection wrote to the Navy, and whoever 
it is that answered this, I have no knowledge of it. No one helped me 
obtain my deferment from the Army. 

The Chairman. You received your deferment on the basis the 
work you were doing was important to the defense of the country ? 

Mr. Shoiket. That is correct. 

The Chairman. And you say you don't know of anyone who inter- 
ceded in your behalf? "You merely went down and made your own 
application for deferment? 

Mr. Shoiket. I filled out the proper questionnaires and everything ; 
it was according to channels and forms as required. 

The Chairman. Did any member of the Communist Party advise 
you to make this application for deferment ? 

Mr. Shoiket. Sir, I was not advised by anyone. This was a form 
put out by the Selective Service people who requested rather extensive 
information of a person regarding his domestic record as well as his 
work record, and on the basis of this I believe they decided that a 
deferment was to be granted or not. 

Mr. Carr. Mr. Shoiket, you were also employed by the Boeing Air- 
craft Co. ? 

Mr. Shoiket. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Carr. That was in 1947? 

Mr. Shoiket. I guess that is it, yes. 

Mr. Carr. What kind of work did you do at the Boeing Co. ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I was working in the vibrations unit. 

Mr. Carr. Elimination of vibrations? 

Mr. Shoiket. That is correct. 

Mr. Carr. The aircraft company was engaged in the making of jet 
planes and jet motors? 

Mr. Shoiket. Jet planes and not jet motors. 

The Chairman. Do I understand that you saw the plans in their 
blueprint stage, plans for the new type of aircraft ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I saw those plans which were pertinent to the work 
I was doing, and I don't think anyone saw extensive plans. 

The Chairman. But you saw some of the blueprints for the plans 
til at were in the drawing-board stage ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Shoiket. Yes. 

Mr. Carr. Mr. Shoiket, following your graduation from the College 
of the City of New York, you were employed by the Navy at the 
Brooklyn Navy Yard and then also at the Mare Island Navy Yard and 
also at the aircraft company, and you had one term of employment for 
the Sam Tour Co. ? 

4i0558r— 54— pt. 3 S 



128 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Shoiket. Yes, sir. 

Perhaps in this record you should also include approximately a 
month or two that, prior to any of these employments, during which I 
worked for the board of transportation of the city of New York, if 
3 ou are after a rather complete record. I worked for the board of 
transportation of the city of New York as a draftsman, working on 
the subways. 

Mr. Carr. You were a draftsman ? 

Mr. Shoiket. This lasted about a month, yes. 

Mr. Carr. At the Sam Tour Co. what type of work were you doing? 

Mr. Shoiket. At the Sam Tour Co., I was not doing any classified 
work. I was a mechanical engineer in charge of a mechanical depart- 
ment which consisted of a machine shop, and some metals testing 
equipment. We were engaged in routine metals analysis as well as 
work with sundry legal clients and we investigated why a particular 
scaffold fell down, or why some ship's equipment failed to function, in 
legal cases. 

Mr. Carr. But the Sam Tour Co. did have some Government sub- 
contracts ? 

Mr. Shoiket. Subcontracts, yes, sir ; none that I worked on, that I 
know of, were of a classified nature. 

Mr. Carr. So that from the time you left the College of the City of 
New York and were employed in these various employments which we 
have listed, we have included them all? 

Mr. Shoiket. I guess so. 

Mr, Carr. Up to the present date? 

Mr. Shoiket. Yes, I had a short spell of self-employment, if you are 
interested in that. 

Mr. Carr. So that in all of the time that you were so employed, after 
leaving the College of the City of New York, had you been in con- 
tact with Julius Kosenberg? 

Mr. Shoiket. Say this again? 

Mr. Carr. At any of the times, at any time from your leaving the 
College of the City of New York to the present, to the time of the 
Rosenbergs' execution, had you been in contact with him? 

Mr. Shoiket. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Carr. While you were working for the aircraft company, what 
plant did you work in ? 

Mr. Shoiket. Wliat plant? 

Mr. Carr. Yes. 

Mr. Shoiket. The Seattle plant, plant 3. 

The Chairman. That was for Boeing Aircraft Co.? 

Mr. Shoiket. Yes. 

The Chairman. I think the record is clear on this, but just so 
there is no question, in the course of your work you did see the blue- 
prints for the proposed new jet planes while they were still in the 
drawing-board stage? 

Mr. Shoiket. I have explained that I saw blueprints of small sec- 
tions of the planes or those sections which pertained to the work on 
which I was working. 

The Chairman. You were concerned with vibration work, and did 
not that require that you see the entire plan of the plane? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 129 

Mr. Shoiket. If you are speaking of — well, let us put it this way : 
The sections on which I worked were rather widespread through the 
airplane, all right, sir. 

The Chairman. Let us not be coy about this. 

Mr. Shoiket. I saw plans pertaining to the airplane. 

The Chairman. To the entire plane ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I cannot speak for the entire plane, and I don't know 
exactly what was left ont. And how can you ask me whether what I 
saw was complete or not? I don't know. 

The Chairman. You apjparently are a much better engineer than 
I am. 

Mr. Shoiket. If you will ask me the details, I will be glad to tell 
you whether I saw something. 

The Chairman. Just a moment. You apparently are an expert en- 
gineer, and I know a little about engineering. You being a vibration 
engineer, can you tell us how you can conceivably do your job unless 
you could see the plan for the entire plane ? How can you do your 
vibration work unless you see the entire plane ? 

Mr. Shoiket. Can I expand on this for a second or so ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Shoiket. A picture or plan of an airplane in its bare outlines 
means nothing. What is necessary in any particular problem is de- 
tailed information regarding particular section of it. For example, 
when I was engaged in problems of engine installation, I knew con- 
siderable, and I had to know, on the details in which the engines were 
going to be installed, and so on. 

I might have known something about the structure details of cer- 
tain portions of the airplane, and I would certainly not know anything 
about, for example, the fire-control apparatus or many of the other 
items which would be involved. An airplane is a combination of very 
specialized fields. 

The Chairman. If your task was to eliminate potential vibration 
in a new-model aircraft, it was necessary, among other things, that 
you would know how much weight the plane was carrying, where 
the weight would be carried, and the size of the plane, and the wing- 
spread, and the horsepower of the motors, and the type of motor ; isn't 
that necesary? 

Mr. Shoiket. Some of these items you have listed, and in fact a 
majority of them, yes. 

The Chairman. So that at the time when you refused to tell us 
whether you were a member of the Communist Party, you were work- 
ing on the plans for the plane, and nothing was kept secret from you ? 
It was necessary that you know practically everything about the new 
type of aircraft, wasn't it ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I beg to differ with you, sir. There are many things 
which I did not know about this aircraft. However, those things 
which were pertinent to my job, of course, I knew. 

The Chairman. Did you see Morton Sobell at any of the times that 
you were working on classified work for the Government ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I refuse to answer this question on the groimds previ- 
ously stated. 

The Chairman. Self-incrimination? 

Mr. Shoiket. The fifth amendment; yes, sir. 



130 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

The Chairman. Do you have any brothers or sisters? 

Mr. Shoiket. I have not. 

The Chairman. You have none? 

Mr. Shoiket. None. 

The Chairman. Your wife is not working for the Government? 

Mr. Shoiket. She is not. 

The Chairman. I believe you were asked the question : Are you a 
member of the Communist Party as of this moment ? 

Mr. Shoiket. I will not answer those questions, sir. 

The Chairman. On the grounds of the fifth amendment? 

Mr. Shoiket. The fifth and the first amendments. 

The Chairman. You have already been asked whether you ever 
belonged. Have you contributed part of your salary to the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Shoiket. I will not answer any questions, sir, regarding the 
Communist Party, for the same reasons. 

The Chairman. There is no blanket refusal. You must refuse sep- 
arately, and you can only refuse on the basis of self-incrimination. 
You are refusing on that ground ? 

Mr, Shoiket. I am refusing because such answers may tend to in- 
criminate me. 

The Chairman. You may step down. 

Mr. Shoiket. Sir, may I say that you have not asked me 

The Chairman. Officer, will you remove this man ? 

Take him out. I want no speech from any man who refuses to tell 
whether he is trying to destroy this Nation. 

(The guard removed the witness.) 

The Chairman. He can make his speech outside if he wants to. 

Mr. Sam Snyder. 

Is Mr. Sam Snyder here? 

Have the record show that Mr. Snyder appeared before the commit- 
tee in executive session in New York, and I do not have the dates. We 
will get the dates later. He was then informed he was under continu- 
ing subpena, and he w^as sent a wire on November 24, ordering him 
to appear on November 25 in New York, and he refused to appear at 

that time. 

He was sent a wire yesterday, ordered to appear tliis morning, and 
he is not here; and a wire went to his lawyer, Leonard Boudin, to 
inform Snyder to appear, and it was sent yesterday, and it has been 
established that Mr. Boudin received the wire. For that reason Mr. 
Snyder's case will be referred to the Justice Department for contempt 
also. First, it will be presented to the full committee and then to the 
Senate. 

I may say Mr. Snyder's case is of considerable interest in that he 
had been ordered suspended as a result of the work of the FBI and 
the G-2 at Fort Monmouth. The Pentagon board ordered him re- 
instated prior to 1953, and Mr. Snyder takes the fifth amendment in 
regard to Communist activities. This was all known to the board in 
the Pentagon who ordered him reinstated, and that points up the 
importance of getting the names of the board members who sat in 
these various cases of Communists. 

Mr. Adams, have you had an opportunity of taking this up with the 
Secretary ? Here you have Snyder a fifth amendment case, and the 
Pentagon board ordered him reinstated; and I feel it is imperative 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 131 

to this investigation that we call those board members and find out 
why that was done. Have you had a chance to take that up ? 

Mr. Adams. I have not. a j ni- 

The Chairman. I wish that you would take that up. And Mr. 
Snyder's case will be referred for contempt. 

Incidentally, do we have a list of the cases being referred for con- 
tempt, either referred to the Justice Department for perjury or 
contempt? I think we should read that list into the record. 

Mr. MoiTis Savitt? 

Will you have the officer call his name outside the door so that there 
can be no claim that he was waiting outside? 

We will also have that done with the name of the previous witness, 
Snyder. 

Have the record show that Mr. Snyder's name was called both mside 
the room and outside of the door, as well as Morris Savitt's name. 
Savitt is under subpena and was ordered to appear, and he is also 
a client of Mr. Boudin. 

Mr. Joseph Perkoff. 

Mr. Perkoff, I understand, is not here either, and Perkoff was 
subpenaed also and his attorney was notified yesterday concerning the 
appearance, and he has been under a continuing subpena. No excuse 
has been given for his failure to appear ? 

Mr. Carr. No, sir. 

The Chairman. How about Mr. Boudin's clients, was any excuse 
given ? 

Mr. Carr. Mr. Boudin said this morning that he would not have 

them here. 

The Chairman. So the record will be complete as to who Perkoff is, 
Perkoff is a close friend of Harry Hyman, and Hyman was before the 
committee in public session in New York, and at that time there was 
introduced into the record a vast number of telephone calls that Hyman 
has been making right up until the date of the hearing to various 
installations handling secret and other classified work, and Hyman 
has been identified as an undercover espionage agent before the com- 
mittee. Perkoff was head of a union at Fort Monmouth and has been 
accused in connection with Communist activities and alleged espionage 
activities, and he has taken the fifth amendment before the committee. 

I believe under the circumstances, Mr. Carr, without wasting any 
time with these people, we have their testimony, we will take the 
executive testimony and make that part of the public record and make 
sure that all three of these cases are submitted to the full committee 
and to the Senate and to the Justice Department for contempt action. 

If we cannot have some of these people who take the fifth amend- 
ment prosecuted for espionage, perhaps we can have them prosecuted 
for contempt. 

Does that conclude your witnesses ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes ; it does. 

The Chairman. That will conclude the hearing for today, and we 
will recess until 10 : 30 tomorrow morning. 

(Whereupon, at 11 : 60 a. m., the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene 
at 10 : 30 a. m. Friday, December 11, 1953.) 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS— SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 



FBIDAY, DECEMBER 11, 1953 

United States Senate, 
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations or the 

Committee on Government Operations, 

Washington^ D. G. 

The subcommittee met (pursuant to S. Res. 40, agreed to January 30, 
1953) at 10 : 30 a. m., in the caucus room of the Senate Office Build- 
ing, Senator Joseph E. McCarthy (chairman of the subcommittee) 
presiding. 

Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin. 

Present also : Francis P. Carr, executive director ; Daniel G. Buck- 
ley, assistant counsel ; and Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

Mr. Joseph Percoff. Will you raise your right hand, Mr. PercoflP, 
and be sworn ? 

In the matter now in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly 
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God ? 

Mr. Percoff. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH H. PERCOFF 

The Chairman. Will counsel identify himself for the record ? 

Mr. Golditch. Leonard E. Golditch, 25 Broad Street, New York 
City. 

The Chairman. How does counsel spell his name ? 

Mr. Golditch. G-o-l-d-i-t-c-h. 

The Chairman. I understand the reason that your client didn't 
appear yesterday was that he felt that he did not have sufficient time 
to discuss the matter with his attorney and have counsel here. Is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Golditch. No ; that is not correct. The reason for it was that 
I received a call from Mr. Bucldey of your committee, about a quar- 
ter to 6 at night as I was leaving my office, and it was impossible for 
me to reach Mr. Percoff by 11 o'clock that night. 

The Chairman. Did not Mr. Percoff receive his wire in the 
morning ? 

Mr. Golditch. No; he received no wire. As a matter of fact, the 
only wire he received was one yesterday afternoon, after I had spoken 
by telephone with Mr. Buckley, of your committee. 

The Chairman. But what is his address ? 

Mr. Golditch. 274 Madison Avenue. As a matter of fact, the tele- 
gram is marked Washington, D. C, 3 : 37 p. m., on December 10. 

133 



134 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

The Chairman. So you did not receive a wire the day before or 
yesterday ? 

Mr. GoLDiTCH. Til at is right. Otherwise, Mr. Percoff would have 
been present and testified. 

The Chairman. You have presented a reasonable excuse. 

Mr. GoLDiTCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Mr. Percoff, we have had 

Mr. GoLDiTCH. Mr. Chairman, before you start the questioning 

The Chairman. May I say the rule of the committee, adopted 
unanimously, is that we do not hear from counsel. If the witness has 
anything to say we will be glad to hear from him. 

Mr. GoLDiTCii. It is a preliminary objection. If you will remember, 
Mr. Chairman, when we were in executive session 

The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, it is a rule that I did not make, it is 
a rule adopted by the committee unanimously 

Mr. Golditch. Thank you very much. 

The Chairman. By the seven members of the committee, that coun- 
sel would not be heard from, but that we would hear from the witness. 
I should perhaps give you the reason for that, and this is no reflection 
upon you personally, you understand. But from past experience, from 
the experience that Judge Medina has had in his court, for example, 
it was found that oftentimes the Communist attorneys of Communist 
witnesses would engage in delaying and hedging tactics. We decided 
not to let that happen before this committee. 

Mr. Golditch. I assume that is not a reflection upon anybody here 
this morning. 

The Chairman. It is not a reflection upon you or your client. It is 
merely a general reason for the adoption of the rule. For that reason, 
anything your client may want to say we will be glad to hear, but not 
from counsel. 

Mr. Percoff. In that event, Mr. Chairman. I would like to renew 
the objections my counsel made at the closed hearing to this inquiry 
and my being here. 

The Chairman. A little louder, please; I cannot hear you. 

Mr. Percoff. I said I would like to renew the objections my counsel 
made at the executive session at which I appeared, this hearing, and 
to tlie inquiry and to my being here. 

The Chairman. We understand your objection. The objection will 
be overruled. 

Mr. Percoff, you are here this morning because of testimony in 
regard to your activities while you were at the Fort Monmouth Signal 
Corps and since you have left. The charges made against you by 
other witnesses are of a very serious nature. You have a chance to 
deny those this morning or to affirm them if you care to. We will go 
over them in detail. 

No. 1, your name as of today is Joseph H. Percoff; is that right? 

Mr. Percoff. That is correct. 

The Chairman. P-e-r-c-o-f-f ? 

Mr. Percoff. That is right. 

The Chairman. Address, 274 Madison Avenue? 

Mr. Percoff. That is my office address. My home address is 1840 
Phaelen Place, New York City. 

The Chairman. Were you ever known by the name of Joseph 
Herbert? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 135 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Percoff. In view of the statement just made by the Chairman, 
in view of the statements made at the executive session at which I 
appeared, at which I was advised that this is an inquiry into Com- 
munist activities at Fort Monmouth 

The Chairman. And espionage. 

Mr. Percoff. And espionage, I will have to refuse to answer that 
question on the grounds that in the first place I consider it my duty 
to refuse to answer any question concerning Communist activities 
or Communist political activities, as an attack upon the rights 
guaranteed by the Constitution, the right of free speech, the right to 
be heard and to hear, the right to publish and to read what one 
pleases, the right to assembly and to associate with whomever one 
pleases, and guaranteed under the first amendment. I also refuse to 
answer the question on the ground that I believe that inquiry of this 
sort is a violation of the 9th amendment and 10th amendment which 
limits Congress' power insofar as its rights are concerned to those 
specified in the Constitution, and I also refuse to answer the question 
on the ground that 

The Chairman. Yes ? 

Mr. Percoff. That this inquiry is an attempt to establish a 
procedure by which ex officio oaths are extracted from witnesses which 
has been barred under the fifth amendment and also on the grounds 
that the witnesses cannot be compelled to testify against themselves 
as stated in the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. If you feel that your answer might tend to in- 
criminate you, you are entitled to refuse, otherwise you will be 
ordered to answer. Do you feel that an answer to the question of 
whether or not you were known as Joseph Herbert would tend to 
incriminate you? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Percoff. I would like to object to the ruling of the Chair on 
the grounds that there isn't a quorum of the committee here, and that 
as a member of one, as a committee of one, the chairman does not have 
the right to rule on these questions but only a majority has. The 
chairman under this situation only has the right to interrogate 
witnesses. 

The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question unless you 
inform the Chair that you feel that your answer would tend to 
incriminate you. 

Mr. Percoff. I have already answered the question. And I refuse 
to answer it on the ground that the fifth amendment prohibits a 
witness to be compelled to answer against himself. 

The Chairman. Have the record show that the Chair has given 
the witness ample opportunity, and still gives him the opportunity, 
to tell the Chair that he feels his answer would tend to incriminate 
him. He refuses to do so. He has been ordered to answer the 
question. He persists in his refusal to answer the question. 

I will ask him another question : Was your alias in the 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

The Chairman. May I have the witness' attention ? 

Would the witness care to hear the question before he consults witJi 
counsel ? 



136 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Percoff. If the chairman pleases, I am concerning myself with 
your first question. 

The Chairman. With the previous question. All right. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Percoff. Mr. Chairman, I would like to state my objection to 
the ruling of the Chair, but if the Chair insists on me answering the 
question in the manner he has put it, I feel I have alread}^ answered 
the question. I refuse 

The Chairman. You may state your objection. 

Mr, Percoff. What is that ? 

The Chairman. You may state your objection. I thought you 
had, but you may state it again. 

Mr. Percoff. I feel I have already answered the question. I still 
refuse to answer on the grounds that the question may tend to 
incriminate me. 

Tlie Chairman. Then the order the Chair previously made that 
you answer the question is withdrawn. You are entitled to refuse if 
3'ou feel the answer would tend to incriminate j'^ou. 

Let me ask you this question : Have you ever used an alias as a 
member of the Communist Party, while attending Communist meet- 
ings ? 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on all the grounds 
that I have previously stated, each and every one of them. 

The Chairman. Just so we need not go through this every time, 
whenever you refuse, am I correct in assuming you are refusing on 
the grounds, among your other grounds, that the answer might tend 
to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Percoff. Among all the grounds, each and every ground that I 
already stated. 

The Chairman. And the self-incrimination ground is included? 

Mr. Percoff, It seems to me that my language was clear. 

The Chairman, I am not arguing with you. I am asking a simple 
question so we can save time. 

Mr. Percoff. You are only making me repeat answers to questions 
that have already been answered. 

The Chairman. I am trying to avoid this constant repetition by 
asking if I can assume that each time you refuse to answer one of 
the reasons for your refusal is that you feel your answer might tend 
to incriminate you, 

Mr, Percoff. That is correct. 

The Chairman. All right, we can save some time. 

Is it correct that your Communist Party card number was 17342? 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that on all the previous grounds 
that I have already stated. 

The Chairman. You worked for the Signal Corps during wdiat 
period of time? 

Mr, Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the same gi'ounds 
that I have already stated. 

The Chair.aian, Did you engage in any illegal activities while 
working for the Signal Corps? 

Mr. Percoff. That question, Mr. Chairman 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Percoff. That question, Mr. Chairman, assumes that I have 
worked for the Signal Corps. I have never testified to that fact. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 137 

However, if the question were asked me whether I ever committed es- 
pionage, my answer would be "no." 

The Chairman. We will get to that. 

During the years 1942 to 1945, were you engaged in any illegal oper- 
ations in connection with your work ? 

(The w^itness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds that I 
have already stated. 

The Chairman. Then, of course, you are entitled to refuse to tell us 
whether you worked for the Signal Corps in view of the fact that you 
refuse to state whether or not you were engaged in illegal activities 
while there. The answer would be incriminating. Normally, you 
would not be allowed to answer that way. 

The record shows, JNIr. Carr, does it not, that this man worked for the 
Signal Corps until sometime in 1945 ? 

Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And he was not separated but resigned; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Carr. He transferred to the Watson Laboratory and then he left 
Watson Laboratory in March of 1945. 

The Chairman. And he left there voluntarily, does the record show, 
the Watson Laboratory I 

Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Percoff, did you ever engage in any il- 
legal activities in comiection with the Communist Party, or any 
members of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds 
I have already stated. 

The Chairman. Did you ever discuss any classified Government 
work with any member of the Communist Party % 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds al- 
ready stated. 

The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer. So counsel under- 
stands the ruling of the Chair, the witness has volunteered the infor- 
mation that he has not been engaged in espionage. Therefore, he has 
waived the fifth amendment insofar as the field of espionage is con- 
cerned. If he gave secret material to members of the Communist 
Party, that could be espionage. He will be ordered to answer the 
question. 

Mr. Percoff. Mr. Chairman, I might point out that you asked me 
if I recall the question, you asked me if I ever turned over any classi- 
fied materials — I don't know whether those are the correct words — to 
Communists. As far as the Communist inquiry is concerned. I have 
already stated my position, that I will not answer any question that 
opens the door to any inquiry into political activities of any nature. 

The Chairman. We are not talking about political activities now, 
we are speaking about espionage against this country. You are or- 
dered to answer the question. And you have waived the fifth amend- 
ment in the field of espionage when you volunteered the information 
that you have not engaged in espionage. We are now questioning 
you in regard to your espionage activities. 

Mr. Percoff. Well, if the chairman 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 



138 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Percoff. I object to the chairman's ruling first on the grounds 
I have ah-eady stated, in that the chairman is sitting here alone, and 
a majority of the committee is not present, and further on the ground 
that the question interrelates itself and interlocks itself with Com- 
munist activity, and that if this committee will exclude inquiry into 
political activity, including Communist activity from its inquiry, I 
will be glad to answer all questions insofar as espionage is concerned. 

The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question and you 
refuse ? 

Mr. Percoff. I still refuse. 

The Chairman. During the last 90 days, have you been in contact 
with individuals at Fort Monmouth who had access to classified 
material ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
I previously mentioned. 

The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question. 

Mr. Percoff. I make the same objections to the chairman's ruling 
and I still refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. This committee has the authority to investigate into 
espionage activities where it concerns the safety of this country. You 
have been named as an espionage agent. You have been named as a 
Communist. Your Communist Party card number is 17342. Your 
name in the Communist Party is Joseph Herbert. You have been in 
contact with people handling secret material at Fort Monmouth. We 
intend to go into that. You have no protection of the fifth amend- 
ment in view of the fact that you have denied espionage. 

Therefore, you are asked the question, did you not have direct con- 
tact with individuals handling classified material at Fort Monmouth 
as late as September 1953, and did you not get material from them 
and pass it on to other members of the Communist Party ? That is 
a very simple question. You have been accused of that. If that is 
not true, you simply say "no." If it is true, of course you are not 
entitled to the protection of the fifth amendment. You waived your 
privilege. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question. 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on all the grounds I 
have previously mentioned. 

The Chairman. Just so there can be no question in the record, yoU 
deny that you engaged in espionage ? 

Mr, Percoff. Would you repeat the question, please ? 

The Chairman. Do you deny that you engaged in espionage? 

Mr. Percoff. I do. 

The Chairman. Did you ever take part in a conspiracy to commit 
espionage ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Percoff. I do. 

The Chairman. You do what? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

The Chairman. The question is did yoU ever engage. 

Mr. Percoff. I never was guilty of conspiring m espionage. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 139 

The Chairman. Did you obtain classified material from people at 
Fort Monmouth and pass that on to members of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
I have previously stated. 

The Chairman. That would be espionage. 

Mr. Percoff. That would also be Communist activities. 

The Chairman. You denied espionage, you have waived your fifth 
amendment privelege. 

Mr. Percoff. I still refuse to answer the question on the same 
grounds I have already mentioned. 

The Chairman. You can build up as many counts as you care to. 
Have you been active in organizing a Communist cell known as the 
Walt Whitman Club? 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I 
have previously stated. 

The Chairman. Did you give speeches at the Walt Whitman Club, 
the Communist cell, where you announced the purpose of organizing 
that club was to infiltrate Fort Monmouth laboratories with 
Communists ? 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the ground al- 
ready stated. 

The Chairman. Did you, at the Shore Club, or Shore Branch, of 
the Communist Party, also Imown as the Walt Whitman Club, discuss 
or hear discussed, by Communists, secret work being done at the Fort 
Monmouth radar laboratories ? 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds al- 
ready stated. 

The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Percoff. I object to the ruling, as I previously objected to the 
other rulings at this hearing. 

The Chairman. And you still refuse to answer the question, I 
assume ? 

Mr. Percoff. That is correct. 

The Chairman. While you were working at either the Army Signal 
Corps radar laboratories or the Air Corps lab at Watson, or the 
Air Corps Watson Laboratories, I should say, were you at any time 
transmitting to the Communist Party, or people known to you to be 
espionage agents, any classified material that you were handling? 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I 
have already stated. 

The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question. 

Mr. Percoff. I make the same objections and still refuse to answer 
them. 

The Chairman. I assume that you understand the reason why you 
are ordered to answer the question ? Just so there can be no claim at 
a future legal proceeding that you didn't know what we were doing 
here, you are being ordered to answer the question because it involves 
the field of espionage. You have stated that you have not engaged in 
espionage. Therefore, you have waived the fifth amendment privi- 
lege in regard to espionage. 



140 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Percoff, I also understand that this inquiry goes to the ques- 
tion of Communist and political activities and any question relating 
to Fort JNIonmouth or anybody connected with Fort Monmouth would 
open the door to those questions, and I refuse to answer any questions 
concerning that. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

The Chairman. I just want to make sure you understood the 
ruling. 

Wlien did 3'ou last see Aaron Coleman ? 

Mr. Percoff. If you are referring to — 

(The witness conferred w^ith his counsel.) 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds 
I have already mentioned. 

The Chairman. Do you feel if you answered that question the 
answer might tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Percoff. On each and every ground that I have already stated. 

The Chairman. Does it include that ground? 

Mr. Percoff. That is correct. 

The Chairman. You are entitled to refuse. Did you know Harry 
Hyman ? 

Mr. Percoff. Will you repeat the question, please? 

The Chairman. Will the reporter read the question? 

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.) 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I 
have already stated. 

The Chairman. Did you know ^Marcel Ullmann ? 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you, Hyman and Ullmann 
have been engaged in obtaining secret material from the Fort 
Monmouth Lal)oratories and transmitting the information on to 
people known to you to be part of an espionage ring, is that not 
correct ? 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds 
I have already stated. 

The Chairman. Do j-ou feel that a truthful answer to that question 
Avould tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. Percoff. I have already answered the question. Mr. Chairman. 

The CiiAiRaiAN. Do you feel that a truthful answer would tend to 
incriminate you? You understand, you are not entitled to refuse if 
you feel that perjury 

Mr. Percoff. I understand 



The Chairman. Please. You understand 3'ou are not entitled to 
refuse if you believe that perjury would become an issue. I will ask 
you the question if you feel a truthful answer to that question would 
tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. Percofi\ I have already answered the question. I refuse to 
ansM-er on all the grounds that I have already mentioned, including 
the fifth amendment which prohibits compulsory testimony from a 
witness and protects a witness from testifying against himself. 

The Chair]man. Do you feel that a truthful answer to the question 
which I have just asked you would tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. Percoff. I have given all the grounds that I have. 

The Chairman. Do you feel that a truthful answer to the question 
would tend to incriminate you ? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 141 

Mr. Percoff. I repeat the same answer. 

The Chairman. Have the record show that the witness has refused 
to tell the Chair whether or not he feels that a truthful answer would 
tend to incriminate him. He is therefore ordered to answer the 
question. 

So there can be no doubt about the question : Mr. Reporter, will you 
read it to him ? 

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.) 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on all the grounds I 
have previously stated, each and eveiy one of them, and also object 
to the chairman's ruling on all the grounds I have already stated. 

The Chairman. Unless you inform the Chair whether or not you 
feel that a truthful answer would tend to incriminate you, you are 
ordered and your answer stands. 

Mr. Percoff. I have already given my answer, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. All right. Maybe some of you Communists, en- 
gaged in espionage, will remove yourselves from circulation by con- 
tempt proceedings, even though you may be clever, clever enough 
to cover up your illegal activities. You may go ahead and build up 
counts against yourselves. 

Wlien you worked at the Air Corps laboratories, did you ever trans- 
mit secret information to individuals known to you to be espionage 
agents ? 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on all the grounds I 
have previously stated. 

The Chairman. Have the record show the witness is ordered to 
answer. 

I assume you refuse ? 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse — I still refuse to answer on all the grounds 
previously stated and on the same objections I have already stated. 

The Chairman. Did you, on February 7, 1945, at the time you were 
being transferred to Watson Laboratories, inform someone whom 
you thought at that time to be a member of the Communist Party, 
that you were being transferred to "Watson Laboratories, that you 
were being transferred there at the behest of the Communist Party, 
and you would be able to obtain valuable information from Wat- 
son Laboratories ? The date is February 7, 1945. 

Mr. Percoff. I refuse to answer that question on all of the grounds 
that I have previously stated, each and every one of them. 

The CiiAiKMAN. Have the record show the witness is ordered to 
answer. 

Mr. Percoff. I still refuse to answer on all the grounds I have pre- 
viously stated and make all the objections that I have previously 
Uiade to the chairman's ruling. 

The Chairman. I understand. 

Are you a lawyer, Mr. Percoff ? 

Mr. Percoff. That is correct. 

Tlie Chairman. Are j^ou admitted to practice before any Govern- 
ment agencies ? 

Mr. Percoff. Wliat was the question? 

The Chairman. Have you been admitted to practice before any 
Government agencies? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Percoff. No. 



142 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

The Chairman. Have you been admitted to practice before the 
Federal courts? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Per(X)ff. No. 

The Chairman. New York State courts? 

Mr. Percoff. Yes. 

The Chairman. Wliere did you go to law school ? 

Mr. Percoff. St. Johns Law School in Brooklyn, N. Y. 

The Chairman. Wlien did you graduate? 

Mr. Percoff. I believe it was 1935. 

The Chairman. You belong to what bar association now ? 

Mr. Percoff. I belong to the Bronx Bar Association. 

The Chairman. The Bronx Bar Association? 

Mr. Percoff. And the National Lawyers Guild. 

The Chairman. And the National Lawyers Guild. 

Who is the president of the Bronx Bar Association ? 

Mr. Percoff. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Frank, I wonder if you would have the president 
of the Bronx Bar Association notified of this testimony. I do not 
think it will be necessary to notify the National Lawyers Guild. 

I think that is all. You may step down. You are informed that 
you are under continuing subpena, and for the benefit of counsel, who 
is here, I will now inform you that this man's case also will be re- 
ferred, first to the committee with a recommendation that he be held 
in contempt, and it will then be referred to the Senate, assuming that 
the committee agrees with me, with the recommendation that his 
case go to the Justice Department and the grand jury for indictment 
on all of the counts of contempt where it involves his refusal to an- 
swer questions covering the subject of espionage. The Chair is of 
the opinion he has waived the fifth amendment insofar as the field 
of espionage is concerned. You may step down. 

Mr. GoLDiTCH. Mr. Chairman, did you say the subpena continues? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. GoLDiTCH. Is that subject to 24 hours recall ? 

The Chairman. Yes, 24 hours. 

Mr. GoLDiTCH. I think you ought to ask Mr. Buckley to at least 
give us that much notice. 

The Chairman. I may say the wire was sent to Mr. Percoff yes- 
terday morning. Why it was not delivered, I do not know. But we 
will take his word for it. 

Mr. GoLDiTCH. We responded to that telegram, Mr. Chairman, 

The Chairman. The wire was sent the day before yesterday, order- 
ing him to appear yesterday. If it was not delivered, that is not his 
fault. We will take his word for the fact it was not delivered. He 
is entitled to 24 hours notice. 

Mr, GoLDiTcii, Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. I think this record should show that I have just 
been informed that Judge Pine this morning denied an application 
for a restraining order by attorneys against this committee. The 
attorneys who appeared were David Eein and Victor Rabinowitz, 
who appeared in behalf of — you read those names. 

Mr. Carr. Leonard Mins, Silvia Berke, Sidney Glassman, Ernest 
Pataki, Morris Savitt, Dianna and Benjamin Wolman. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 143 

The Chairman. And for the record, I think it should be clear that 
all of these individuals have been named as Communists by the com- 
mittee. Some of them have been named as havino; taken part in 
espionage activities. The application was to obtain the judge's order 
to prevent these witnesses being called before the committee. That 
application was denied by Judge Pine this morning. 

I merely mention that so the attorneys representing some of the 
other witnesses will be fully informed of it. I think this shows the 
vigor and the length to which the Communist Party will go in an 
attempt to keep their members from appearing before this committee. 

Who is your next witness ? 

Mr. Carr. Louise Sarant. 

The Chairman. Mrs. Sarant, will you raise your right hand? In 
this matter now in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly 
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ? 

Mrs. Sarant. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF LOUISE SARANT, ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL, 
JULIAN C. TRUPIN, NEW YORK, N. Y. 

The Chairivian. Your name is Louise Sarant ? 

Mrs. Sarant. That is correct. 

The Chairman. And your husband's name ? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

The Chairman. What is your husband's name, Mrs. Sarant? 

Mrs. Sarant. I am not married. 

The Chairman. Pardon. 

Mrs. Sarant. I am not married. 

The Chairman. Then please give your former husband's name. 
Wliat is your former husband's name ? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the protection that the fifth 
amendment gives me, in that a witness may not be compelled to testify 
against himself. 

The Chairman. Would counsel identify himself for the record? 

Mr. Trupin. Julian C. Trupin, 217 Broadway, New York City. 

The Chairman. I wonder if you would give the reporter your 
phone number, in case we should want to get in touch with your 
clients. 

Mr. Trupin. Courtland 7-0553. 

The Chairman. Mrs. Sarant, were you ever present when your 
husband, Joel Barr, and Julius Rosenberg were discussing plans 
concerning espionage against the United States? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. You feel that your answer might tend to incrimi- 
nate you ? 

Mrs. Sarant. As I understand it, the fifth amendment protects 
the innocent. 

The Chairman. You feel your answer might tend to incriminate 
you? 



Mrs. Sarant. Since- 



(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Sarant. Since that is the interpretation that the conunittee 
insists upon, I will agree to that. 



144 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESFIONAGE 

The Chairman. We do not insist on it. We do not know. You 
are the person who feels whether or not the answer would tend to 
incriminate you. If you feel it would, you are entitled to answer. 
Otherwise you w^ill be ordered to answer. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Sarant. I don't believe that is a valid interpretation of the 
fifth amendment. However, I will accept it. 

The Chairman. I am not asking you to accept anything. I am 
asking you a simple question. Do you feel it would incriminate you 
if you tell us w liether or not you were present while espionage against 
your country was being discussed. Do you feel that that answer 
would tend to incriminate you ? 

Mrs. Sarant. I do. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Now, for j^our information let me inform you as to the testhnony 
heretofore taken. You will luive a chance to deny this, if you care to. 
The testimony is that your husband, Mr. Al Sarant, worked in the 
Signal Corps laboratories at Fort Monmouth in the early 1940's, that 
he was engaged in espionage at that time, he was part of the Rosen- 
berg spy ring, that he continued his contacts with people at Fort 
Monmouth for a considerable period of time after he left there, and 
that he continued to engage in espionage. The evidence indicates 
you were present and heard espionage discussed. If you were not 
present and never heard these people plot against this country, you 
simply say "No, I did not hear it," If you were present, of course 
you are entitled to refuse, because the answer would incriminate you. 

{The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Sarant. Are you stating now that I so testified f 

The Chairman. No ; I was giving a resume of the testimony against 
you, so that you will have a chance to deny it, if it is untrue. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

The Chairman. Do you claim any of that testimony is untrue? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under tlie fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. Wliere is Mr. Al Sarant toda3^? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under tlie fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. Do voii know where he is today ? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The CiiAiRiMAN. You understand he is a fugitive being sought, do 
you not? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. Did you refuse to give the FBI any information as 
to where Al Sarant is? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Sarant. I am sorry ; what was the lieginning of your question? 

The Chairman. Will you read the question to the witness? 

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.) 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The CiiAiRiNiAN. Were you born in this countr}'? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Sarant. Yes, I was. 

The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist Party as of 
today ? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendmeiit. 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 145 

The Chairman. Do you receive money from the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. Do you understand the question? The question 
is. Are you a paid member of the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Sarant. I understand the question, and I refuse to answer 
under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. How many brothers and sisters do you have 'i 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. You are ordered to answer. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Sarant. I don't have any brothers or sisters. 

The Chairman. Wliy did you feel it would incriminate you to 
tell us that? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Sarant. Can you wait for a minute, please? 

The Chairman. Yes. Consult your counsel to any extent you 
care to. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

The Chairman. Are you ready to answer the question now ? 

Mrs. Sarant. Because of the general line of questioning of this com- 
mittee and the implications and the innuendoes in the questions, I 
hesitated to answer the question as to whether I had brothers or sisters 
or how many, whatever it was, because 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, there were two people who 
have passed as your brothers in the Communist Party, who actually 
were not your brothers; isn't that the actual situation? 

Mrs. SiVRANT. May I finish saying w^hat I was saying before you 
interrupted me? 

T]ie Chairman. I want to ask you to answer that question. I want 
to ask you is it not a fact  

Mrs.' Sarant. I refuse to answer that question under the fifth 
amendment. 

The CiiAnjMAN. Let me finish the question, please. Is it not a fact 
that in attending Communist Party meetings, two men used to attend 
with you and they posed as your brothers? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question under the fifth 
amendment. 

The Chairman. Where are those two men now ? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question under the fiftii 
amencbnent. 

The ChairMxVN. What are their names ? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question under the fifth 
amendment. 

The Chairman. You have no legitimate brothers and sisters ; is that 
correct ? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question under the fifth 
amendment. 

Tlie Chairman. Do you have any legitimate brothei"S and sisters? 
You are ordered to answer that question. 

Mrs. Sarant. No; I do not. 

Tlie Chairman. You do not. Can you tell us why you passed those 
two men off as your brothers ? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. Were they espionage agents? 



146 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. Has Aaron Coleman ever visited your home? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. In 1947 did Coleman visit your home on several 
occasions ? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. Have you, youreelf, ever participated in a con- 
spiracy to commit espionage? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. Where does your father work ? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs, Sarant. Would you repeat that question, please ? 

The Chairman. I said where does your father work. 

Let me phrase it this way, then: Does your father work for the 
Government ? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer it. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Sarant. On what ground? 

The Chairman. Pardon? 

Mrs. Sarant. On what ground am I ordered to answer that question ? 

The Chairman. On the ground that you are entitled to no fifth- 
amendment protection in that question. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer the question because of the nature 
of this investigation, which apparently attempts to tie me up with 
relatives that don't exist and all sorts of fantastic, ridiculous situa- 
tions. 

The Chairman. You may think it is fantastic to bring people here 
who engaged in espionage against their country. We don't. We 
think it is rather important to expose the spies, the saboteurs working 
against the country, the country that is supporting them. You appear 
here and refuse to give us any information and you in the past refused 
to give the FBI the information about a fugitive who has violated 
the espionage act. That means that you are equally guilty with him. 
I now ask you. Is your father working for the Government? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Sarant. Are you insisting that I answer that question even 
though I raised the fifth amendment- 

The Chairman. I am ordering you to answer it. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Sarant. All right, then. He is not working for the Govern- 
ment. 

The Chairman. Where is he working ? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer tlie question because I feel this 
committee is attempting to drag people into this investigation who are 
in no way related to the purpose of this investigation. 

The Chairman. If that is the ground of your refusal, you are or- 
dered to answer. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Sarant. Since you insist upon my answering despite my ob- 
jections 

The Chairman. Yes ? 



ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 147 

Mrs. Sarant. Would you repeat the question, please ? 

The Chairman. I will be glad to. Where is your father working? 

Mrs. Sarant. My father is working in Ithaca. He is an attorney. 

The Chairman. An attorn(^y in New York ? 

Mrs. Sarant. Ithaca, N. Y. 

The Chairman, Is he a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. You are entitled to refuse to answer that. 

Mrs. Sarant. What did you say ? 

The Chairman. Were you present — I said you were entitled to re- 
fuse to answer it. 

Mrs. Sarant. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Were you present at a restaurant on 34th Street in 
New York City with your husband, and Joel Barr, and William Perl 
on an occasion when Joseph Levitsky brought Carl Greenblum to that 
restaurant, the purpose of the meeting being to look over Greenblum 
and decide whether or not he would make a suitable member of your 
ring? I may say for your information, that is the evidence before 
the committee at this time. 

Mrs. Sarant. Would you repeat the question, please ? 

The Chairman. Would you read the question to the witness, Mr. 
Reporter ? 

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.) 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mre. Sarant. It is quite a complicated question. 

I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Greenblum? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. The witness is informed that she will remain under 
continuing subpena. We may or may not want her back before the 
committee. I do not know. Counsel will be notified if she is wanted. 

I am not sure if we asked you this question or not : Were you, your- 
self, engaged in espionage ? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. While your husband worked at the Signal Corps 
Laboratories, was he part of the Rosenberg spy ring? 

Mrs. Sail\nt. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. Do you know a Mr. Hyman Yamins? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. Did Vivian Glassman ever attend any meetings 
that were attended by Mr. Rosenberg and by you and your husband? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. How about Joseph Levitsky? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. I believe you have already refused to answer as to 
William Perl? 

Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer under the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. You may step down. 

Mr. Trupin. May I suggest to the chairman that if this witness is 
desired again, that I be notified at the same time, so that there won't 
be this delay of about a day ? 

The Chairman. If it is satisfactory, we will notify you and try to 
give you at least 48 hours' notice. 



148 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 

Mr. Trupin. Thank you very much. 

The Chairman. The committee will now go into executive session 
in room 357. The public hearing is adjourned until Monday morn- 
ing at 10 : 30 at the Federal Building, Foley Square, New York. 

(Whereupon, at 11 : 45 a. m., the committee was recessed, to recon- 
vene at 10 : 30 a. m., Monday, December 14, 1953, in the Federal Build- 
ing, Foley Square, New York.) 



INDEX 



Page 

Adams, John 1^ 

Air Corps (United States) 123, 137, 139, 141 

Air Corp (Watson Laboratories) 123, 137, 139, 141 

Armv (United States) 121, 127, 130 

Army Intelligence (G2) 121. 130 

Barr, Joel 143, 147 

Berke, Silvia 142 

Boeinj; Aircraft Co 327, 128 

Boudin, Leonard 130, 131 

Bronx Bar Association 142 

Broolilyn, X. Y 119, 124-127, 142 

Brooklyn Navy Yard 125-127 

Brooklyn pnblic schools 124 

Bund 12<; 

California 126 

City of New York 117, 124, 127, 128, 130, 131, 133, 143, 147, 148 

Civil Service Commission 115 

Coleman, Aaron 117, 118, 120, 121, 125, 140, 146 

College of the City of New York (CCNY) 124, 125, 128 

Communist attorneys 134 

Communist espionage agents 117, 118, 120 

Communist Party 118, 119. 120, 122, 125, 126, 127. 129, 

130, 134, 139, 141, 143, 144, 145, 147 

Communist Party (card No. 17342) 180, 138 

Communist Party (Shore Branch) 139 

Communist Party (United States) 118,119,120,122,125,126,127,129, 

130, 134, 139, 141, 143, 144, 145, 147 

Communist system of government 110, 120, 122 

Congress 135 

Constitution of the United States 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 135 

Department of Justice 117, 130, 131, 142 

Dociunents (secret) 120, 121 

Federal Building (New York City) 148 

Federal Bureau of Investigatin (FBI) 130, 144, 146 

Fifth amendment (defined) 118 

Fort Monmouth (G-2) 130 

Fort Monmouth, N. J 115-120, 122. 130, 131, 134, 135, 138, 139, 140, 144, 147 

Fort Monmouth Radar Laboratories 139, 140 

G-2 (Army Intelligence) 121, 130 

G-2 (Fort :Monmouth) 130 

Glassman, Sidney 142 

Glassman, Vivian 147 

Golditch, Leonard E 133, 134, 142 

(Jovernment agencies 141 

Government subcontracts 128 

Government of the United States 115, 119, 120, 122, 124, 125, 128, 129, 137, 141 

Greenblum, Carl 147 

Herbert, Joseph (see also Joseph Percoft") 131, 134, 135, 138 

Hyman, Harry 131, 140 

Intelligence (Army, G-2) 121, 130 

Ithaca, N. Y 147 

Justice Department 117, 13(X 131. 142 

Katz. Sidney L 124 

Lawson Machinery Corp. (New York City) 124 

Levitsky, Joseph 147 

Manhattan 124 



II ESTDEX 

Page 

Mare Island Navy Yard 125, 126, 127 

Martin, Bob 120 

Medina, Judge 134 

Mins, Leonard 142 

National Lawyers Guild 142 

Navy Department 125, 126, 127 

Nazi Party 126 

New York City 117, 124, 127, 128, 130, 131, 133, 143, 147, 148 

New York City College (CCNY) 124. 125. 128 

New York State courts 142 

Pataki, Ernest 142 

Pearl Harbor 116 

Pentagon board 130. 131 

Percoff, Joseph H. (Joseph Herbert) 131 

Testimony of 133-142 

Perl, William 147 

Pine, Judge 142-143 

Rabinowitz, David 142 

Radar 120, 139 

Radar Laboratories (Fort Monmouth) 139, 140 

Rein, David , 142 

Rosenberg, Ethel 128 

Rosenberg, Julius 116, 120, 122, 124, 125, 128, 143, 144, 147 

Rosenberg spy ring . — 116, 144, 147 

Rosenbergs' execution 128 

St. Johns Law School (Brooklyn, N. Y.) 142 

Sam Tour Co 127, 128 

Sarant, Al 144 

Sarant, Louise 

Testimony of — 143-147 

Savitt, Morris 131, 142 

Seattle plant No. 3 (Boeing Aircraft Co.) 128 

Selective Service 127 

Senate of the United States 130, 131, 142 

Shoiket, Henry N. 

Testimony of 124-130 

Shoiket, Mrs. Henry N 130 

Shore Branch (Communist Party) 139 

Shore Club . 119, 120, 122, 123, 139 

Signal Corps Laboratory (Fort Monmouth, N. J.) 116, 122, 144, 147 

Snyder, Sam 130, 131 

Sobell. Morton 129 

Tavlor, Gen. Telford 115 

Tour, Sam (see also Sam Tour Co.) 127, 128 

Trupin, Julian C 143. 147, 148 

Ullmann, Marcel 140 

Testimonv of 115-124 

United States Air Corps 123, 137, 139, 141 

United States Army 121, 127, 130 

United States Constitution 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 135 

United States Government 115, 119, 120, 122, 124, 125, 128, 129, 130, 137, 141 

United States Navy Department 125, 126, 127 

United States Senate 130, 131, 142 

Walt Whitman Club 139 

Washington, D. C 133 

Watson Laboratories (Air Corps) 123, 137, 139, 141 

Whitman, Walt 139 

Wolman, Benjamin 142 

Wolman, Dianna 142 

Young Communist League 125 

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