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ARMY SIGNAL CORPS— SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
HEARING
BEFORE THE
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-THIKD CONGRESS
riRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO
S- Res. 40
PART 7
DECEMBER 17, 1953
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
40558° WASHINGTON : 1954
Boston Public Uarary
^ntendent of Docut
APR 2 S 1954
superintendent of Documents
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
JOSEPH R. McCarthy, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dalsota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HI'MPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idalio HENRY M. JACKSON, Wasliington
EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY. Massachusetts
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. TOTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
Francis D. Flanagan, Chief Counsel
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota
EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSEN, Illinois
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan
Roy M. Cohn, Chief Counsel
Francis P. Carr, Executive Director
II
CONTENTS
Page
Index I
Testimony of —
Ackerman, Lester 295
DeLuca, John Anthony 293
Heyman, Ezekiel 291
Hyman, Harry 297
Kaplan, Louis 285
Morris, Sam 296
Saunders, Jolin 292
III
I'
L
ARMY SIGNAL COEPS-SUBVERSION AND
ESPIONAGE
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 17, 1953
United States Senate,
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the
Co3imiitee on Government Operations,
Neio York, N. Y.
The subcommittee met (pursuant to S. Ees. 40, agi'eed to January
80, 1953) at 10 : 30 a. n.. in room 110, United States Courthouse, Foley
Square, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy (chairman of the subcommittee)
presidin^:.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin.
Present also : Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel ; Francis P. Carr, execu-
tive director ; and t)aniel G. Buckley, assistant counsel.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Louis Kaplan?
Mr. Stavits. ]\Iay we have the lights turned off ? We don't care to
be on television, sir.
The Chairman. Will you turn the lights off the witness ?
In this matter now in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Kaplan. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS KAPLAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS ATTORNEY,
MORTON STAVITS, NEW YORK
The Chairman. Will you give your name to the reporter ?
Mr. Kaplan. Louis Kaplan.
The Chairman. K-a-p-1-a-n ?
Mr. Kaplan. Right.
The Chairman. Will you identify counsel for the record?
Mr. Stavits. Morton Stavits, S-t-a-v-i-t-s, 744 Broad Street, New
York.
The Chairman. Mr. Kaplan, where are you working now ?
Mr. Kaplan. At the present moment I am selling eggs.
The Chairman. And will you give us your address, please, Mr.
Kaplan ?
Mr. Kaplan. 120 Taylor Avenue, Neptune, N. J.
The Chairman. And how long since you worked on any Govern-
ment project?
Mr. Kaplan. About six and a half years or so.
The Chairman. And where were you w^orking then ?
285
286 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. Kaplan. I Avas workinrr at the Standards Agency at Eaton-
town, N. J.
Tlie Chairman. And what type of work, Government work, did
Standards Agency do?
Mr. Kaplan. Mostly standardization of materials, and the nature
of my AA'ork was the standardization of plastic materials.
The Chairman. Did 3'ou ever work at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Kaplan. At the fort proper ? No.
The Chairman. Did you work in any of the Signal Corps labora-
tories ?
Mr. Kaplan. Well, for a while I AAas stationed in Philadelphia, and
then out at Dayton, Ohio, a very short period of time.
The Chairman. And you have heard of tlie Shore Club, have you ?
(The Avitness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. Senator, can you tell me Avhat you mean by the Shore
Club?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. Do you knoA\' Avhat the Shoi'e Club is?
Mr. Kaplan. Can you tell me \Ahat you uiean by the Shore Club?
(The witness conferred Avith his counsel.)
The Chairman. Did you help organize the Shore Club?
(The witness conferred AA'ith his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. As a matter of fact, there probably is a SAvimming club
doAvn there by the name of the Sliore Club, Senator.
The Chairman. We will identify it for you a little better. Did you
not help organize the Shore Club, which is a cell of the Communist
Party, organized for the purpose of infiltrating the Signal Corps lab-
^iratories Avith Communists for the purpose of conducting esi:)ionage ?
Does that refresh A-our recollection ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. Senator, there seems to be tAVO parts of that question,
the latter part in relation to espionage. As T stated at a closed session,
1 ncA'er engaged in espionage of any nature whatsoeAxr.
The Chairman. AVhat was the purpose of the organization of the
Shore Club?
(The witness conferred AA'ith his counsel.)
The Chairman. 1 am referring not to a SAA'imming club but to the
Conununist club.
Mr. Kaplan. I refuse to answer that on the privilege granted me by
the fiftli amendment, the reason
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Kaplan. For the reason that an ansAver might tend to incrim-
inate.
The CirATR:\rAN. Was it organized for the purpose of infiltrating the
Signal Corps laboratories Avith Communists for the purjjose of con-
ducting espionage?
(The Avitness conferred Avith his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. Senator, I have already indicated I have never en-
gaged in es])ionage.
The Chairman. AnsAver the question.
Mr. Kaplan. Can AAe haA'e the question again?
The Chairman. You ma3\
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
Mr. Stavits. IMay Ave have it sloAAly ?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 287
The Chairman. You may.
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
(The witness conferred with his counseh)
Mr. Kaplan. Senator, if you mean by that if I have ever engaged
in espionage and organized anything for espionage, I have already
indicated that the answer is no.
The Chairman. Answer the question.
Mr. Kaplan. Well
Mr. Stavits. Can we have that question again ?
The Chairman. You may have it again.
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. Senator, in relation to the question, if it has anything
to do whatsoever with discussion of the Communist Party or a Com-
munist club, I refuse to answer that part on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question.
(The witness conferred Avith his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. In relation to any aspect of the question with respect
to espionage, I have already indicated my answer.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. ]\Iy attorney advises me that I have answered the
question.
The Chairman. The Chair is advising you to answer the question.
Mr. Stavits. May we have the question read again ?
The Chairman. You may have it read as often as you like.
(The reporter read from liis notes as requested.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. If the question is related to the point of organizing
a Communist club, I refuse to answer that part on the basis of the
fifth amendment. If the question is relating to the question of espio-
nage, I have already indicated that I never committed any espionage.
The Chairman. Are you refusing to answer the question? The
question was. Did you help to organize a club which was organized
for the purpose of infiltrating Fort Monmouth labs with Communists
for the purpose of committing espionage ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. You have waived the fifth amendment insofar as
the espionage field is concerned. Therefore you are ordered to answer
the question of whether or not this club was organized for the purpose
of committing espionage.
]\Ir. Stavits. That wasn't the question that you asked before,
Senator.
The Chairman. ^Ve will not hear from counsel.
]\Ir. Stavits. You changed the question now.
The Chairman. If you want to be heard, you will stand up and
be sworn.
Mr. Kaplan. The question is, Was it organized for the
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. Can we get the question again, please ?
The Chairman. Will the reporter read the question again ? You
are ordered to answer it.
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
288 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. That, Senator, is not the same question you just
posed to me.
The Chairman. Answer the question as read to you.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. In my opinion, Senator, I have answered the question.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kaplan. In my opinion, Senator, I have answered the question.
The Chairman. You refuse to answer whether or not this was
organized for the purpose of infiltrating Fort Monmouth with Com-
munists so as to commit espionage?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. You refuse to answer that question ?
Mr. Kaplan. I have answered that question, indicating that I
never organized anything for the purpose of espionage. That is the
main nature of the question, the way I get it.
The Chairman. Did you help organize the Shore Club ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. I refuse to ansAver that on the ground of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. What was the purpose of the organization of the
Shore Club?
Mr. Kaplan. I refuse to answer that. Fifth.
The Chairman. We Avill restate the question. Was it organized
for the purpose of committing espionage in the radar laboratories ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. I believe my answer that I stated before, that I never
at any time have committed any espionage, including the organization
of anj'thing, fully covers the answer to that question.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Stavits. May we have tlie question read ?
The Chairman. You may liave the question read.
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
The Chairman. Will the reporter have the record show whenever
counsel writes out the answer for the witness?
Mr. Stavits. Will tlie Senator please read this and please see that
it is not the answer to the question ?
The Chairman. Will the attorney please sit down?
Mr. Stavits. I resent 3'our suggestion that I am Avriting out an
answer. Tliis happens to be the question.
May I have the question read again because of this interruption.
The Chairman. You may have the question read back again.
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
Mr. Stavits. What does "it" refer to ?
The Chairman. Do you understand the question?
Mr. Kaplan. I would like to be specific about the "it," Senator,
The Chairman. The Shore Club.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. Senator, I have already indicated that I have never
organized any group or club for the purpose of espionage, and if
that is the intent of the question then the answer to that question is
no.
ARTvIY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 289
The Chairman. You say that it was not organized for the purpose
of committing espionage at Fort JSIonmouth 'i
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. Tlie answer which I gave just prior to your last ques-
tion is the answer I am offering.
The Chairman. I would like to understand whether you are
testifying under oath that the Shore Club was not organized for the
purpose of committing espionage. Let us make that clear so that
you cannot claim at any future proceeding that your answer was
to some other question.
Mr. Stavits. JNIay we have that read again ?
The Chairman. You may have it read.
Let me rephrase it so that there will be no question.
"Was the Shore Club organized for the purpose, for the dual pur-
pose, of infiltrating the Signal Corps laboratories with Communists
and for the purpose of committing espionage in those laboratories?
(The Avitness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. In my opinion, Senator, I have answered that
question. •■
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer it.
Mr. Kaplan. I bee; your pardon ?
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. I believe I have answered that question three or
four times.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. To whatever extent the question deals with Com-
munists or the Shore Club of the Communist Party, I refuse to answer
on the basis of the fifth. To whatever extent the question deals with
espionage, I have never committed or organized anything for any
espionage of any nature.
The Chairman. The record will show that the witness has been
ordered to answer this question a great number of times and given the
opportunity and refuses to do so.
You said, I believe, unless I misunderstood you, that you hadn't
worked for the Government for about 8i^ years ?
Mr. IL^PLAN. I didn't say. I worked for the Government about 5
years.
The Chairman. Did I understand that you did or did not work for
the Signal Corps laboratories ?
Mr. Kaplan. I was working for the Standards Agency, which was
a branch of the Signal Corps and not stationed at the fort proper.
It is probably considered part of the Signal Corps.
The Chairman. Iii other words, from 1943 to 1947, you were work-
ing on Signal Corps work, is that correct?
Mr. Kaplan. From 1943 to 1947 I was working on materials and
the standardization of materials, mostly with plastic materials.
The Chairman. Was that Signal Corps work ?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes.
The Chairman. I note the Army gives your address here as Fort
Monmouth, N. J. Was that your address?
Mr. Kaplan. You mean wliere I lived ?
40558°— 54— pt. 7 2
290 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. The location of your assignment, Fort Monmouth.
N.J.
Mr. Kaplan. That is the general area.
The Chairman,. So 3'ou were at Fort IMonmouth, in that general
area ?
Mr. Kaplan. I was working at the Standards Agency, Avhich was
outside the fort gates.
The Chairman. At the time you were doing this work, were you a
member of the Communist conspiracy?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. I refuse to answer any questions in relation to the
Communist Party on the privilege aiforded me by the fifth amend-
ment.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist conspiracy as
of this moment '^
Mr. Kaplan. I have already indicated I refuse to answer any ques-
tion in relation to the Communist Party on the ground of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. You will have to refuse or answer each question.
You are not entitled to any blanket refusal before this committee.
Mr. Kaplan. I refuse to answer any question in relation to the Com-
munist Party on the grounds that an answer might tend to incriminate
me.
The Chair^ian. Did you ever discuss any classified Avork with mem-
bers of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Kaplan. As I understand
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. As I answered at the closed hearing, I never discussed
any classified w^ork with anyone unless they were authorized to be part
of the discussion.
The Chairman. Well, your idea of being authorized might be dif-
ferent from ours. You perhaps would think that your superior in tlie
Communist Party would be authorized to get the information.
Mr. Kaplan. By whom, the Government ?
The Chairman. So, will you answer without any qualification?
The question is, Did you ever discuss any classified work with any
member of the Communist Party, regardless of whether you thought
they were authorized to get the information or not ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kaplan. You mean. Senator, authorized by the Signal Corps?
I mean, that is what I mean, too.
The Chairman. I asked you a simple question. Did you ever dis-
cuss any classified work with any members of the Conununist Party ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. Is Mr. Hyman here?
(There was not no response.)
Mr. Kaplan. Senator, I never discussed any classified work with
anybody unless they were authorized by the Signal Corjis. As to the
relationship of their party, if they were authorized by Signal Corps,
I had no knowledge of that.
The Chairman. Answer the question.
Mr. Stavits. May we have the question again?
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 291
The Chairman. The witness will step aside. He will have a chance
to study these questions and consult with his lawyer. You will not
leave the building. You are under subpena and will be available when
called. Do you understand that, Mr. Kaplan?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes.
The Chairman. You understand that you will be under subpena
and will be here available in this room.
Mr. CoHN. Mr. Heyman, please.
Mr. Atkins, Will you turn the lights off ?
The Chairman. Turn the lights off the witness.
Mr. Heyman, will you stand and raise your right hand?
In this matter now in hearing before this committee, do you solemn-
ly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Heyman. I do.
TESTIMONY OF EZEKIEL HEYMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
MICHAEL B. ATKINS, NEW YORK
The Chairman. I may say for the benefit of the press who are cover-
ing this, we have been referring to a Mr. Hyman. That is not the
same man as the Mr. Heyman on the stand.
How do you spell your name ?
Mr. Heyman. H-e-y-m-a-n.
Mr. CoHN. What is your first name?
Mr. Heyman. Ezekiel.
Mr. CoHN. Where do you reside?
Mr. Heyman. 255-22 74th Avenue, Queens, N. Y.
Mr. CoHN. Have you ever been employed at the Federal Telecom-
munications Laboratory?
Mr. Heyman. I have.
Mr. CoHN. And when?
Mr. Heyman. Roughly between the period of 1943 and 1947.
Mr. CoHN. Did you work on any Government work when you were
there ?
Mr. Heyman. I did.
Mr. CoHN. Army Signal Corps work ?
Mr. Heyman. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. Of a classified nature?
Mr. Heyman. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. What was your clearance ? Was your clearance secret ?
Is that correct?
Mr. Heyman. I honestly don't know, sir. I imagine so.
Mr. CoHN. The record indicates Mr. Heyman's clearance was
through secret.
When you were working on classified Army Signal Corps work at
this laboratory, were you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Heyman. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. CoHN. On what ground, sir?
Mr. Heyman. On the grounds under my privilege under the fifth
amendment that I may not be a witness against myself.
Mr. CoHN. Are you a member of the Communist Party today?
Mr. Heyman. I refuse to answer that question under the same
grounds.
292 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. CoHN. While you were working on classified material for the
Army Signal Corps at this laboratory, were you attending Communist
Party meetings ?
Mr. Heyman. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. CoiiN. Were you attending Connnunist Party meetings with
fellow employees at this laboratory ?
Mr. Heyman. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
The Chairmax. Would you give the grounds for your refusal each
time, please?
Mr. Heymax. I refuse to answer under my privilege under the fifth
amendment which says that I may not be forced to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Coiix. I have nothing further.
The Chairmax. You will consider yourself under contiiniing sub-
pena. You will be notified when you are wanted.
Is Mr. Hyman in the room now ?
(There was no response.)
The Chairmax. Mr. Hyman was before the committee the other
day, Harry Hyman, and objected strenuously and loudly because there
was no positive testimony in regard to his activities. Today we have
a number of witnesses who will testify positively as to his Communist
activities. We told Mr. Hyman to be here so that he can deny that
testimony if he feels it is untrue. His attorney advises me that he i&
parking his Cadillac now. It will take 5 or 10 minutes, so we will take
a recess of 10 minutes.
Will that be sufficient, Mr. Boudin ?
Mr. BouDix. It depends upon how large a Cadillac is.
The Chairmax. We will give you 10 minutes.
(Brief recess.)
The Chairmax. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Saunders?
You have been previously sworn, Mr. Saunders, and you are re-
minded that your oath is still in effect.
Mr. Diamoxd. May we have the lights turned off ?
Tlie Chairmax. Certainly.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN SAUNDERS, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS ATTORNEY,
BERT DIAMOND, INTERNATIONAL UNION OF ELECTRICAL,
RADIO, AND MACHINE WORKERS, CIO, WASHINGTON, D. C.
The Chairmax. May I say to counsel that we do not propose, since
we do not have the time, to discuss any of Mr. Saunders' own activities.
He is here this morning only to give us the testimony which he gave
in executive session on Mr. Hyman. Mr. Hyman is here and will
have a chance to deny that testimony if he cares to.
Mr. CoHx. I wanted the record to note, of course, that the witness
is here pursuant to subpena.
Mr. DiAMOxD. He is.
Mr. CoHx. Can we have your full name, please ?
Mr. Sauxders. John Saunders.
Mr. Coiix. S-a-u-n-d-e-r-s?
Mr. Sauxders. That is right.
Mr. CoHx. Where do you reside ?
Mr. Sauxders. 70 East Seventh Street.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 293
Mr. CoiiN, Where are you employed ?
Mr. Saunders. Federal Telecommunications Lab.
Mr. ConN. For how long a period of time have you been working
there ?
Mr. Saunders. Since 1945.
Mr. CoHN. While working at the Federal Telecommunications
Laboratory, did you meet a man named Harry Hyman ?
Mr. Saunders. I did.
Mr. CoHN. And you know IMr. Hyman ; is that correct ?
Mr. Saunders. 'I'hat is ri<>-lit.
Mr. CoHN. Did Mr. Hyman ever ask you to join the Communist
party?
Mr. Saunders. He did at one time.
Mr. Corn. When was that?
Mr. Saunders. It was before a union meeting after I had been in
the labs for about a year or two.
The Chairman. Will you try and speak up a little louder?
Mr. Saunders. It was either before or after a union meetino;, I am
not sure, after I had been in the labs for about a year or two.
Mr. CoHN. That would make it about 194C or 1947?
Mr. Saunders. 194G or 1947.
Mr. CoiiN. In connection with Hyman's attempt to recruit you
into the Communist Party, did he give you any documents ?
Mr. Saunders. He gave me a card.
Mr. CoiiN. Did he actually issue you, to you, a party card?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Mr. CoHN. And what did you do with that card ?
Mr. Saundlrs. 1 held on to it for a while and then later on I
destroyed it.
Mr. CoHN. Did Hyman continue working at the Federal Tele-
communications Laboratory for a considerable period of time after
that ?
Mr. Saunders. Yes, quite a while after that. I don't remember
•when it was that he left, but it was either around the fifties or before
the fifties, sir.
Mr. CoHN. I have nothing further.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Saunders.
Mr. CoHN. Mr. De Luca, please.
The Chairman. You are reminded, Mr. De Luca, that you have
been sworn and your oath is still in effect. Will you turn the lights off
the witness?
Mr, Diamond. Did you have the record show, Counsel, that this
witness is also here under subpena ?
Mr. CoHN. I think it is safe to say that every one of your clients
here this morning is here pursuant to subpena; is that correct?
Mr. Diamond. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN A. DE LUCA, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
BERT DIAMOND, INTERNATIONAL UNION OF ELECTRICAL, RADIO,
AND MACHINE WORKERS, CIO, WASHINGTON, D. C.
Mr. CoHN. Will you give us your full name ?
Mr. De Luca. John Anthony De Luca.
Mr. CoHN. How is your last name spelled ?
294 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. De Luca. D-e L-u-c-a.
Mr. CoiiN. Where do you reside, Mr. De Luca ?
Mr. De Luca. Fairlawn, 4-03 30th Street, Fairhiwn.
Mr. CoHN. Where are you employed ?
Mr. De Luca. Federal Telecommunications Laboratories.
Mr. CoHN. And for how long a period of time have you been em-
ployed there ?
Mr. De Luca. July of 1943.
Mr. CoHX. And do you have access to classified material there?
Mr. De Luca. Well, I am a machinist.
Mr. CoHN. I say have you had access to confidential, restricted,
secret ?
Mr. De Luca. Only confidential occasionally.
Mr. CoHN. Confidential?
Mr. De Luca. Occasionally.
Mr. CoHN. Mr. De Luca, while working at the Federal Telecom-
munications Laboratory, did you know a man named Harry Hyman?
]\Ir. De Luca. Yes.
Mr. CoiiN. And did Mr. Hyman ever ask you to join the Communist
Party?
Mr. De Luca. Yes.
Mr. CoHN. About when was that?
The Chairman. I wonder if you would try and speak a little louder,
sir. It is hard to hear.
Mr. De Luca. I Avould say roughly 1948.
The CHADiMAN. Mr. De Luca, will you wait a moment, sir?
Mr. Hyman, will you stand up ?
Mr. De Luca, will you look and see if this is the H3nnan who asked
you to join the Communist Party?
Mr. Hyman, will you stand up ?
Is this the same Mr. Hyman ?
Mr. De Luca. Yes.
The Chairman. Is Mr. Saunders still here in the room ?
Mr. Hyman, will you stand up again?
Mr. Saunders, you referred to Harry Hyman who asked you to
join the Communist Party. Is this the Harry Hyman?
Mr. Saunders. Yes.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Mr. CoHN. Would you say it was general knoAvledge around the
plant that Harry Hyman was a Communist, Mr. De Luca?
Mr. De Luca. Yes.
Mr. CoHN. That was pretty well known. And after that was pretty
well known, did he nevertheless continue to work there for some
period of time?
Mr. De Luca. Yes,
Mr. CoiiN. I have nothing further of this witness.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Mr. CoHN. Mr. Ackerman?
The Chairman. I wish you would not turn the lights in the witness'
eyes.
Mr. Ackerman, you have been sworn and you are reminded that
your oath is still in effect.
Mr. Ackerman. Yes, sir.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 295
TESTIMONY OF LESTER ACKERMAN
The Chairman. Mr. Cohn?
Mr. Cohn. May we have your full name, please?
Mr. AcKERMAN. Lester Ackerman.
Mr. Cohn. A-c-k-e-r-m-a-n?
Mr. Ackerman. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you reside?
Mr. Ackerman. 910 Gerard Avenue, Bronx, N. Y.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Ackerman. Federal Telecommunications Laboratories, Rye
Lake, N. Y.
Mr. Cchn. For how long a period of time have you been employed
at the Federal Telecommunications Laboratory?
Mr. Ackerman. January 10 will be 10 years, sir.
Mr. Cohn. W^hile working at the Federal Telecommunications Lab-
oratory, did you have occasion to come in contact with a man named
Harry Hyman?
Mr. Ackerman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Can you tell the committee whether or not Harry Hy-
man was a Communist?
Mr. Ackerman. It was a known fact throughout the plant that
Harry Hyman was connected Avith the Communist Party.
Mr. CoiiN. Well, now, outside of the fact that it was a known fact
around the plant, did you ever hear Hyman make any statement from
which you concluded that Harry Hyman was connected with the
Communist Party?
Mr. Ackerman. I have heard Harry Hyman mention that he was
with the Communist Party.
Mr. Cohn. About when would you say you heard him mention
that?
Mr. Ackerman. Well, it is hard to give a definite date. It was on
occasion where we might have been to a meeting or it might have been
in the plant itself. But a definite date, an exact date, rather, I' can-
not give you.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have a specific recollection of hearing Hyman
say that he was connected with the Communist Party?
Mr. Ackerman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Hyman, will you stand up again so the wit-
ness can see you ?
Mr. BouDiN. May I ask how many more of these confrontation
scenes we are going to have ? This witness is here under subpena — Mr.
Hyman — to testify, not to be an exhibit. I don't mind conveniencing
the Chair if we are told this isn't going to continue all morning.
The CiiAiRiMAN. ]Mr. Boudin, if you want to concede this is the Har-
ry Hyman referred to by all these witnesses, he will not have to stand
up. I may say one of the reasons why the witnesses were called was
because Mr. Hyman, when he was here the other day, very loudly,
very vigorously, protested because he was being questioned whether
he was a Communist, and he said "there is no positive evidence that
I am."
I thought in view of the fact that he wanted this positive evidence
we should take a half hour and give him that evidence.
296 ARlVrY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. BouDiN. I haven't heard any evidence of espionage. Do you
intend to produce any ?
The CiiAiRMAX. Do you want to testify ?
Mr. BouDix. I am asking a question.
The Chairman. If you do not want to testify, sit down.
Mr. BouDiN. Is there anything else you want ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. BouDiN. We will wait and have him testify.
The Chairman. Mr. Boudin, do I understand that you do not ques-
tion the fact that the Harry Hyman these witnesses are talking about
is the Harry Hyman
Mr. Boudin. I am not making any statements. I am here because
you asked me to produce a Avitness. Mr. Hyman is sitting next to
me, and if the Avitness wants to point him out, he can. He is here as
a witness.
Mr. CoHN. That is the Harry Hyman to which you are referring?
Mr. Acin.KMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. You heard him state that he was with the Communist
Party ?
Mr. AcKERMAN. That is right.
Mr. CoHN. I have nothing further, sir.
The Chairman. Tliank you very much.
Mr. CoHN. Mr. Morris, please.
The Chairman. You are reminded you have been sworn, Mr. Mor-
ris. Your oath is still in effect.
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
TESTIIIONY OF SAM MOHRIS, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, BERT
DIAMOND, INTERNATIONAL UNION OF ELECTRICAL, RADIO, AND
MACHINE WORKERS, CIO, WASHINGTON, D. C.
Mr. CoiiN. What is your name?
Ml*. Morris. Sam Morris.
Mr. CoHN. AVhere are you employed?
Mr. Morris. Federal Telecommunications Laboratories, Bellville
plant.
Mr. CoHN. For how long a period of time have you been working
there ?
Mr. Morris. January will be 10 years.
Mr. CoHN. And while 3'ou were working at the Federal Telecom-
mmiications Laboratory — you say 3'ou have been there for 10 j-ears?
Mr. ]\IoRRis. In January.
]\Ir. CoHN. AVhile you were working at the Federal Telecommuni-
cations Laboratory, did you know a man named Harry H3anan?
Mr. Morris. I dKl.
Mr. CoHN. Did you know he was a Communist? Was that com-
mon knowledge ?
Mr. Morris. I heard him say so.
Mr. CoHN. Have you seen Mr. Hyman here this morning?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. And is that the Harry Hyman you heard refer to him-
self as a Communist [indicating] ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS— SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE - 297
The Chairmax. I hate to repeat tliis, but will the cameramen ob-
serve the rule? I don't Avant any flash pictures taken after the wit-
ness starts to testify. After one takes a flash picture, the others do
tlie same.
Mr. CoHK. I ha\'e nothing further.
I didn't ask your address.
Mr. Morris. 90 Martha Avenue, Clifton, N. J.
The Chairman. I have just one question. "Was it such general
knowledge around the plant that he was a Communist that at the
time certainl}^ the security officers and everyone else knew that Hyman
was a Communist ?
Mr. Morris. Well, I wouldn't know liow many peo])le know.
Tlie Chairman. Was it general knowledge around the plant?
Mr. Morris. I would say so, among people at work, the working
people. I don't know about the security officer.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Tliere are a number of other witnesses who will testify substantially
the same as the last four, but I think there is nothing gained by
repetition.
Mr. Hyman, will you take the stand?
Mr. Hyman, you are reminded that you have been sworn previ-
ously, and the oath is still in effect. You understand that, do you ?
]\Ir. Hyman. Yes, I do.
T^S'f^IMONY OF EAREY HYMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
LEONARD B. BOTJDIN, NEW YORK, N. Y.
Mr. BouDiN. Senator, could we have those lights moved a little
more toward the Chair ?
The Chairman. Will you turn the lights off Mr. Boudin?
Mr. BouDiN. Thank you. '
Mr. CoiiN. Mr. Hyman, you heard the testimony of Mr. Saunders
first of all here, did you not?
Mr. Hyman. I Avould like to make a statement first, before I answer
any questions.
Mr. CoHN. Is the statement addressed to the jurisdiction of the
committee?
Mr. Hyman. Yes, it is.
The Chairman. You can make it.
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer any questions on the subject of
crime, that is a grand jury matter outside the committee's jurisdiction,
no charges have ever been made against me in accordance with the con-
stitutional procedure, since I have not committed any crime, includ-
ing espionage, and this committee cannot constitutionally make an in-
vestigation of criminal charges.
I further decline to answer any questions because the present dupli-
cating hearing is obviously for a political not a legislative purpose,
since it follows two previous hearings in which I declined to answer
similar questions on statutory and constitutional grounds.
I further contest the jurisdiction of the committee which is limited
under the standing rules of the Senate, rule 20, to the economy and
efficiency of Government operations.
I contest the jurisdiction of the committee and decline to answer
its questions on the ground that no person is required under the Con-
298 ^ ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
stitution to be a witness cagainst himself, amendment 5, and is entitled,
if such evidence exists, to be confronted with the evidence before
response to charges, amendment 6.
The Chairman. Mr. Hyman, I note you say it is the function of
the grand jury and not this committee to investigate crime. If we
transfer this matter over to the grand jury, will you tell the grand jury
whether or not you are an espionage agent, the extent of your espio-
nage activities, the extent of your Communist activities ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. If so, we will be glad to transfer your case over
to the grand jury.
Mr. Hyman. As I understand, *his committee has no authority to
transfer anything.
The Chairman. Oh, yes. We can refer it to the grand jury. Isow,
let us assume that we can. Will you testify before the grand jury and
answer the questions that you refuse to answer before this committee?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyman. My conduct at that time will be determined at that
time.
The Chairman. Would you be willing to give the FBI
Mr. BouDiN. I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I would like to
have the cameras stop going in accordance with your instructions.
The Chairman. The cameras will not be turned on the witness.
How about counsel ? Does counsel object?
Mr. BouDiN. Only counsel to the committee should have his picture
' The Chairman. No pictures will be taken of either Mr. Boudin or
his client. That includes motion pictures as well as still pictures.
Mr. BouDiN. I didn't mean to interrupt you, Senator.
The Chairman. That is all right.
Mr. Hyman, would you be willing to give the FBI the information
which you do have about espionage and communism in this country?
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Hyman. ^My answer is the same as the previous question.
The Chairman. What is that answer?
Mr. Hyman. That my conduct at that time will be determined at
that time.
The Chairman. We have introduced into the record, I do not recall
how many, roughly four or five or six hundred long-distance phone
calls that you have made to secret installations, the radar laboratories
at Fort ]\ionmouth and other installations having to do with secret
Government work.
Did any of those phone calls have to do with espionage?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. BouDiN. Will you excuse me a moment?
The Chairman. Certainly.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. While Mr. Hyman is conferring with counsel, may
I say that I think Mr. Hyman is exhibit No. 1 in the argument as to
why Attorney General BrownelFs proposal should be adopted, that is,
his proposal'to legalize wiretapping evidence in cases of espionage.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. BoiTDiN. Could I have the question repeated, please ?
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
ARMY SIG>:AL corps — SUBVERSION A>:D ESPIONAGE 299
(The witness conferred witli his counsel.)
Mr. Hymax. I previously answered that question in my opening
statement. But since the Senator made a remark about my being-
exhibit No. 1, I think you are exhibit No. 1 of fascism coming to the
United States.
The Chairman. Now, will you answer the question?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated
in my statement. Do you want me to read the statement ?
The Chaikman. You have read the statement. Is one of the grounds
that portion of the fifth amendment which provides that no man need
be a witness against himself if he feels his evidence might tend to
incriminate him ?
Mr. Hymax. My ground is the entire statement. I will read it over
again, if you please.
The CiiAiRMAx. No ; we will not hear it. Do yon feel that if you
were to answer, the answer might tend to incriminate you ?
(The witness conferred w^itli his counsel.)
Mr. Hyman. I rest on the entire statement I made, including the
portion on the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Do you feel that your answer might tend to
incriminate you ?
Mr. Hyman. I have already made my statement.
The Chairman. We will have the record shoAv that the witness
refuses to tell the Chair Avhether or not he feels his answer might
tend to incriminate him. Therefore, he is ordered to answer the
question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer the question on the grounds of
the privilege afforded me by the fifth amendment.
Mr. CoHN. You heard Mr. Saunders' testimony here this morning,
Mr. Hyman. Was Mr. Saunders telling the truth when he said you
had asked him to join the Communist Party Avhile you were working
at the Federal Telecommunications Laboratory?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. CoiiN. Was Mr. Saunders telling the truth when he said that
you actually issued a Communist Party card to him while you were
both working at this laboratory on Government work?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. CoHN. Do you know Mr. Saunders?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hy]man. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. BouDiN. I take it the chairman knows the grounds that are
referred to. We don't have to repeat the statement ?
The Chairman. I assume, and let us see if I am correct in this,
that he will not tell the Chair whether on not he feels the answers
would tend to incriminate him. Under the circumstances, I will ask
for a contempt citation on each count. He can build up as many
counts as he cares to.
Mr. Hyman. I would like to perhaps read my statement. It
seems that the Senator didn't hear it. I am declining to answer on
the grounds in my statement, not on the grounds that he sets forth.
The Chairman. I will ask you again. Are you declining, among
other reasons, for the reason that you are relying upon that section
300 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
of the fifth amendment which provides that no person may be a
witness ajiiainst himself if he feels that his testimony might tend to
incriminate him ?
If you are relying npon that, you can tell me. If not, of course,
you are ordered to answer. A Communist and espionage agent has
the right to refuse on that ground, but not on any of the other
grounds you cited.
(The witness conferred w^ith his counsel.)
]\Ir. Hyman, In reference to the fifth amendment, I am relying
on that section which says "no person shall be compelled in any
criminal case to be a witness against himself."
The ChairMz\n. Proceed, Mr. Cohn.
Mr. CoiiN. You were sitting here while Mr. De Luca testified
this morning. JMr. De Luca stated that while both you and he were
working at the Federal Telecommunications Laboratory, you asked
Mr. De Luca to join the Communist Party. Did you ?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Cohn. By the way, do you know Mr. De Luca ?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Cohn. You heard the testimony of Mr. Morris here this morn-
iiig, in which he stated that he heard you say that you were a member
of the Communist Party. Did you make such a statement?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Mr. Morris ?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Cohn. You heard Mr. Ackerman, Mr. Lester Ackerman,
testify this morning. Mr. Ackerman said he heard you state that
you were connected — Avhile you were working at the Federal Tele-
communications Laboratory and while he was there — with the Com-
munist Party. Did you make such a statement?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Mr. Ackerman ?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Cohn. While you were working at this laboratory doing class-
ified Government work, how many peoj^le did you recruit into the
Communist Party?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Cohn. From how many people did you obtain classified
information?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Are any of the persons who you recruited into the Com-
munist Party or into Conununist espionage still working at the
Federal Telecommunication Laboratory ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
The Chairman. Are you engaged in espionage at this time ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyman. I have previously stated, and in my opening state-
ment reiterated, that I have not committed any crime, including that
of espionage. I reaffirm that statement now.
The Chairman. You say you never have been engaged in espio-
nage : Is that correct ?
Mr. Hyman. I just made my statement.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 201
The Chairman. You say you never liave been engaged in
espionage?
Mr. Hyman. I have never committed any crime, including
espionage.
The Chairman. Did you ever engage in a conspiracy to commit
espionage ?
(The Avitness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyman. What does that mean, exactly ?
The Chairman. Do you know what it means?
Mr. Hyman. No, I don't.
The Chairman. I am sure Mr. Bondin knows what it means.
Mr. BouuiN. It has such a wide meaning, Mr. Chairman. It is
pretty hard for anyone to answer such a question of that scope.
The Chairman. It is a simple question.
The question is did you ever engage in a conspiracy to commit
espionage 'i
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyman. I don't understand the question.
Mr. CoHN. You have a right to consult with counsel. Conspiracy
is a term which is well defined and espionage is a term which is
well defined. Mr. Boudin is an able lawyer and can certainly advise
you fully of your rights in res]5onse to that question.
Mr. BcUDiN. I have told — I was responding to your flattery, Mr.
Cohn.
Mr. CoHN. You can consult with Mr. Boudin and then answer the
question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyman. Well, since you suggested m}^ consulting my attorney,
according to my attorney the laws right now indicate there are no
limits to such a term as conspiracy, and it is still an impossible
question to answer. Define what you are talking about.
Mr. CoHN. You can't tell us whether or not you were engaged in a
conspiracy to commit espionage against the United States?
Mr. Hyman. I have already stated that I haven't committed any
crime including espionage.
Mr. CoHN. The Rosenbergs were not convicted of espionage. They
were convicted of a conspiracy to commit espionage. I want to
know if you committed that same crime. Were you engaged in a
conspiracy to commit espionage ?
Mr. Hyman. Can't you define the term conspiracy for me so I will
know what I am answering?
Mr. Cohn. You can tell us whether or not 3'ou were engaged in a
conspiracy to commit espionage. If you have any difficulty with
reference to any of the words used in that question, you can consult
with your counsel and give us the answer to that question. If you
do not, I think you can give us a very simple answer.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Boudin. Are you pressing the question?
The Chairman. He is ordered to answer the question.
Mr. Boudin. Was he? I didn't hear that.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer the question on the grounds given
before, and the fact that you haven't been able to define the term.
The Chairman. Well, let us ask another question.
302 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Have you ever discussed the subject of espionage with any members
of the Communist Party ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer that for all the reasons previously
given.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer.
Mr. Hyman. I have already made my statement.
The Chairman. I assume you persist in your refusal ?
Mr. Hyman. I haven't refused. I have answered according to my
statement. I will read the statement again, if you please.
Mr. BouDiN. May we have the statement read so that the witness'
position is completely made ?
The Chairman. The witness has read that statement.
Mr. BouDiN. You know the statement to which he refers ?
Mr. Cohn. Practically by heart.
The Chairman. Have you ever discussed any classified material
with individuals whom you knew to be espionage agents, or indi-
viduals you had reason to believe were espionage agents?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer for the reasons given.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer. I assume you still
refuse ?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer any questions on the subject of
crime. That is a grand jury matter outside
Mr. CoHN. The chairman has indicated that we are not going to
read this lengthy statement again.
Mr. BouDiN. There are only four paragraphs.
Mr. CoHN. Four is too much. The statement is in the record,
available to everybody, and Mr. Hyman's position has been clearly
stated. It would be a lot simpler to say yes, no, or invoke the
privilege.
Mr. BouDiN. I think in view of the fact that you have stated that
his position is clearly stated, there is no reason to read it now.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question, and so
that you cannot claim ignorance or entrapment at a future criminal
proceeding, let me tell you why you are being ordered to answer it.
No. 1, when you stated that you never engaged in espionage, you
have waived the fifth amendment insofar as the field of espionage is
concerned. No. 2, when you volunteer the information that you liave
never committed a crime, if that is true, then you have done nothing
about which you cannot testify under the fifth amendment.
You could not incriminate yourself if you never committed a crime.
For that reason, you are being ordered to answer the question.
Mr. Hyman. The Senator seems quite inconsistent because at previ-
ous hearings I stated that I hadn't committed any crime and you
accepted that and had not ordered me to answer the questions.
I am merely reiterating the same position I have taken before at
two previous hearings.
The Chairman. I do not accept the fact that you haven't committed
a crime.
Mr. Hyman. I made that statement in the past.
The Chairman. But I inform you that when you say under oath
you have not been guilty of any crime, when you say that you have not
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 303
committed espionage, you haA^e no fifth amendment privilege then,
yon see.
Mr. Htman. What you are doing, then, is arbitrarily destroying
tlie privilege of the amendment for the innocent which is what it was
set up to do, and the manner in which I am using it.
The Chairman. If we get a few innocent Communists before us, it
is unfortunate. Answer the question.
Mr. Hyman. I have already stated my position.
The Chairman. Have you ever discussed classified material at a
meeting of the Communist Party?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer for the same grounds.
The Chairman. You are again ordered to ansAver. I assume you
still decline?
Mr. Hyman. I have already stated my reasons.
The Chairman. Have you ever turned Government secrets over to
anyone known to you to be an espionage agent ?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer.
Mr. Hyman. You have my statement.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, I was going to indicate this for the
record here, with reference to Mr. Hyman's statement that he has not
committed a crime. I think the affirmative testimony of the four
w itnesses here this morning particularly of those two who stated that
Mr. Hyman attempted to recruit tliem into the Communist Party,
certainly constitutes very powerful evidence of violation of those parts
of the Smith Act which make it a crime to be a member of the Com-
munist Party with knowledge of its objectives and which make it a
crime to organize or help to organize the Communist Party.
I think in view of that the record should be referred to the Depart-
ment of Justice with a view toward presentation to a grand jury, a
view toward indictment for violation of those two sections of the
Smith Act.
I think we should refer the testimony of these four affirmative wit-
nesses this morning, in addition to testimony of other witnesses who
have been heard by the committee in executive session.
The Chairman. If I may, Mr. Cohn, I think you are completely
right. One of the reasons why some of these cases have not been
referred to the Justice Department prior to this time is that I realize
the tremendous difficulty they have in presenting a clear-cut case of
espionage beyond a reasonable doubt. I have been hoping that the
Congress, and I think they will, will pass the law requested by Mr.
Brownell to make phone-tap evidence legal in espionage and sabotage
cases.
The case will, however, be referred to the Justice Department. I
think you are right. I think you have a clear-cut case here of the »
violation of the Smith Act. You have complete proof that would
convince any man that this man has engaged in espionage. "Wliether
or not the Justice Department can prove that beyond a reasonable
doubt or not, I don't know.
Now let me ask you this, Mr. Hyman.
Mr. Hyman. You made a statement. What proof was that? I
didn't see any proof or hear any proof.
The Chairman. Well, are you an espionage agent ?
304 ARIVIY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hyman. Ko, you made a statement.
The Chairman. Are you an espionage agent?
]Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the grounds already given.
But you made some statement about evidence as to my espionage. I
haven't heard any.
The Chaiiiman. The best evidence is from your own mouth.
Mr. Hyman. That isn't evidence.
The Chairman. I will not argue that with you. We will let you
argiie that before the grand jury.
Have you, within the last month, made phone calls to Albert
Shadowitz?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer or the same gi'ounds.
The Chairman. Did you make the phone calls for the purpose of
obtaining classified material which you in turn passed on to an espio-
nage agent?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyman. That is a loaded question, and in addition I decline
to answer on the same grounds.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer.
Mr. PIyman. I have already stated my position.
The Chairman. Did you make a phone call to a Mr. Joel Levitsky
within the past — did you make three different phone calls to Mr.
Levitsky in March of 1953, and discuss classified material with him?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
The Chairman. Did you obtain classified information from Mr.
Levitsky when you made these three phone calls? Did you pass that
on to an individual knowni to you to be a Communist espionage agent?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer.
Mr. Hyman. You already have my statement.
The Chairman. I asked you certain questions the last time you
were before this committee
Mr. Hyman. The answer is the some.
The Chairman. At that time, however, you had not volunteered
the information that you were never guilty of any crime or espionage.
So the situation is different as of today.
Mr. Hyman. That isn't so. If you will check the record, you will
find I did say it. My statement was similar the last time. I said I
hadn't committed any crime.
The Chairman. All right, let's assume you did, then. You will
be ordered to answer the questions today, however. You were not
the other day.
Did you make a phone call to the United States Government Air
Rocket Test Station at Lake Denmark, Dover, N. J., in 1952?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds, on the ground
that the question Avas asked before, and that there would be no legis-
lative purpose served by repeating the question.
The Chairman. You understand you are ordered to answer, of
course?
JSIr. Hyman. I have already given you my statement.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 305
The Chairman. Did you make a phone call to the Navy Air Rocket
Test Station for the purpose of obtaining classified material and for
the purpose of turning that over to Communist agents ?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer.
Mr. Hyman. You have my statement.
The Chairman. Did you, in 1953, make eight calls to the Depart-
Bient of the Air Force at Newark, N. J., for the purpose of obtaining
classified material for the purpose of turning that over to espionage
agents ?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds, and you have
asked the question before and repeating it Avon't serve any legislative
purpose.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer.
Mr. Hyman. You have my statement.
The Chairman. Did you make 4U calls between January 23, 1953,
and October 13, 1953, to the Department of the Air Force Transporta-
tion Control Depot, Newark, N. J., for the purpose of getting classified
Government information and material and for the purpose of turning
it over to an espionage agent?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer.
Mr. Hyman. You have my statement.
The Chairman. Did you make 7() calls to the Federal Telecommuni-
cations Laboratory at Lodi, N. J., between January 21, 1953, and Oc-
tober 21, 1953, for the purpose of getting classified information and
for the purpose of then turning that over to an espionage agent or
agents ?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer.
Mr. Hyman. You have my statement.
The Chairman. Did you make three calls in 1953 to the Electronic
Associates, Inc., at North Caldwell, N. J., for the purpose of obtain-
ing classified information and then turning that information over to
an espionage agent or agents?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
The Chairman.: You are ordered to answer.
Mr. Hyman. You have my statement.
The Chairman. Did you make 27 calls to the Allen B. DuMont
Laboratories at East Patterson, N. J., between March 7, 1952, and
January 12, 1953, for the purpose of obtaining classified Government
material and turning that classified material over to an espionage
agent or agents ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. BouDiN. Could we have the question repeated ?
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds, and the ques-
tion has been previously asked. It is only for publicity purposes.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer.
Mr. Hyman. You have my statement.
The Chairman. Did you make 24-2 calls during the last year to the
Federal Telephone & Radio Corp. at Clifton, N. J., for the purpose
of obtaining classified material and turning that classified material
over to an espionage agent or agents ?
308 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hymax. I decline to answer for the same grounds.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer.^
Mr. Hyman. You have my statement.
The Chairman. Did you make 12 calls in the year 1953 to the Fair-
child Engine & Airplane Corp., at Farmingdale, N. Y., for the pur-
pose of obtaining classified material and then turning that material
over to an espionage agent or agents ?
Mr. Hyman. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
The Chairman. You are again ordered to answer.
Mr. Hyman. You have my statement.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Tlie Chairman, This case will be referred to the Justice Depart-
ment as well as the testimony of all the witnesses who testified against
him, wath a recommendation that it be submitted to the grand jury for
an indictment for violation of the Smith Act. The case will also be
submitted to the investigating committee with a recommendation that
this witness be recommended for indictment for contempt of the com-
mittee. That, of course, wnll come before the Senate as a whole. I
assume we will have no clifficulty Laving the entire Senate recommend
the indictment of this witness for contempt on all the counts in which
he is clearly in contempt of the committee. It will then be transferred
to the Justice Department.
You may step down. You will consider yourself under a continuing
subpena.
i\Ir. BouDiN. With respect to the subpena — could we just have the
pictures away for a moment?
The Chairman. Do not take Mr. Boudin's picture for a moment.
Mr. BoTJDiN. You are asking that the witness remain subject to the
subpena ?
The Chairman. I am not asking.
Mr. BcuDiN. I said directing, and I take it that it is in connection
with the same investigation into whatever it is called, espionage and
subversion. Yes ?
The Chairman. Espionage, Communist infiltration, subversion, the
entire field.
INIr. BouDiN. I think I should state, then, for the record, so that there
w^ll be no misunderstanding, that I do not regard this investigation as
a proper one.
The Chairman. I will not hear from counsel.
Mr. BouDiN. Then I will ask that if you do wish the witness again,
I think you had better subpena him, and I would like to have sufficient
time to make a motion to vacate.
The Chairman. May I say, Mr. Boudin, the order that he remain
under continuing subpena will stand. However, if you feel that in
order to avail yourself of any legal rights which you think you have,
lliat the written subpena must be served upon him, in other words,
if you feel you cannot get into court merely upon this verbal order of
the chairman, we certainly will not deny you any legal right which you
have, and we will be glad to serve any kind of a written subpena which
you think is necessary to give you the right to get into court.
JNIr. l')OuniN. Thank you.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 307
The Chairman. I would like at this time to thank the Federal Tele-
comniiuiications Laboratory, and especially their security oflicer, for
the wholehearted cooperation they have given us in this investigation.
I realize it must be embarrassing to them to have this information
made public. But despite that, they have cooperated fully.
I may say that from all the information they have, the attitude over
in Federal Telecommunications is infinitely different than what it had
been in the past. In the past number of years there apparently was no
remote conception of security. "While there was a high barbed-wire
fence around the laboratories, you cannot help but get the impression
that perhaps the high fence was to keep the Communists from being
disturbed in their work of obtaining secrets. I do think they are doing
a good job at this time, and making a very sincere attempt to clean
house.
It is a very difficult job to have in view of the fact that the condition
which now exists grew over a ])eriod of 20 years. I do want to thank
and compliment the security officers for their attitude and their help.
The press have been asking when we will resume hearings. Ke.xt
week is Christmas week, the following week New Year's. The present
plans are to hold no public hearings until after the first of the year.
However, there is a possibility, as counsel has pointed out, that it may
be necessary to have 1 or 2 days' hearings in the meantime. I hope not.
So we will adjourn the public hearings now until after the first of the
year.
May I say that again, as some of the press have been asking about
this. As we have announced the number of fifth amendment cases,
which is now over 20. some members of the press interpreted that as
meaning that all of those cases would be submitted to the Senate for
contempt. That is incorrect. A man who properly invokes the fifth
amendment is not in contempt of the committee. It is only in those
cases where we indicated that we Avill ask for contempt citations that
should be spoken of. I think one of the things that has been accom-
plished to date, with apparently a bit of blindness on the part of the
Communist Party, is that they have created a situation in which their
ranks will b? considerably dissipated by Avay of contempt convictions.
We will adjourn now until further call.
(Whereupon, at 12: 25 p. m., the committee was recessed, subject to
call of the Chair.)
INDEX
Page
Ackerman, Lester 204, 30()
Testimony of 2Ur,-298
Air Force (United States) 304,305
Air Roclvet Test Station (U. S. Government, Lake Denmark, Dover, N. J.)- 304
Allen B. DuMont Laboratories (East Patterson, N. J.) 30.")
Armv (United States) 289
Annv Sianal Corps Laboratories 286-288,292
Atkins, Michael B 291
Attorney General (United States) 298,303
Bondin,^ Leonard B 292, 295-299, 301, 302, 305, 306
Bronx, N. Y -- 295
Brownell, Attorney General 298, 303
Cadillac car 292
Christmas week 3.07
CIO (Congress of Industrial Oriianizations) 292,293
Clifton, N. J 297, 305
Communist club 286-289
Communist conspiracy 290
Communist espionage agent 300, 304. 305
Communist Party 286, 287, 289-296, 299, 300, 302-305,307
Confidential documents 294
Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO) 292,296
Congress of the Ignited S'p^es 303
Constitution of the United States 298
Dayton, Ohio 286
DeLuca, John Anthony 3(X>
Testimony of 293-294
Department of the Air Force (Newark, X. J.) 305
Dej)artment of the Air Force Transport<ition Control Depot (Newark,
N. J.) 30.5
Department of Justice 303, 306
Diamond, Bert 292, 293, 296
Documents (confidential) 294
Dover, N. J 304
DuMont, Allen B 305
DuMont Laboratories (East Patterson, N. J.) 305
East Patterson, N. J 305
Eatontown, N. J 286
Electronic A.s.'^ociates Inc. (North Caldwell, N. J.) 305
Fairchild Engine & Airplane Corp. (Farmingdale, N. Y.) 306
Fairlawn 294
Farmingdale, N. Y 306
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 298
Federal Telecommunications Laboratories 291, 293-296, 299, 300, 305, 307
Federal Telecommunications Laboratories (Bellville plant) 296
Federal Telecommunications Laboratories (Lodi. N. J.) 305
Federal Teleconnnunications Laboratories (Rye Lake, N. J.) 295
Federal Telephone & Radio Corp. (Cliftim, N. J.) 305
Fort Monmouth, N. J 286-290, 292, 298
Government Air Rocket Test Station (Lake Denmark, Dover, N. J.) 304
Government secrets 303
Government of the United States 285, 286, 289-291, 298-300, 303, 304
Hey man, Ezekiel
Testimony of 291-292
Hyman, Harry 290-296
Testimony of 297-306
II INDEX
International Union of Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers, Page
CIO 292, 293, 296
Justice Department 303, 306
Kaplan, Louis
Testimony of 285-291
Lake Denmark, Dover, N. J 304
Levitsky, Joel 304
Lodi, N. J 305
Morris, Sam 300
Testimony of 296-297
Navy (United States) 305
Navy Air Rocket Test Station 305
Neptune, N. J 285
New Years 307
New York, N. Y 285, 291, 297
Newark, N. J 305
North Caldwell, N. J 305
Philadelphia, Pa 286
Radar 288, 298
Rosenberg, Ethel 301
Rosenberg, Julius 301
Rve Lake, N. Y 295
Saunders, John 297, 299
Testimony of 292-293
Security oflicer (Federal Telecommunications Laboratories) 307
Senate, rule 20 297
Senate of the United States 297, 307
Shadowitz, Albert 304
Shore Club 286-289
Signal Corps Laboratories (Fort Monmouth, N. J.) 286-289, 292
Smith Act 303, 308
Standards Agency (Eatontowu, N. J.) 286, 289, 290
Stavits, Morton 285-289
Telecommunications Laboratories 291, 293-296, 299. 300, 305, 307
Transportation Control Depot, Newark, N. J. (Department of the Air
Force) 305
Union of Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers 292, 293, 296
United States Air Force 304, 305
United States Air Rocket Test Station (Lake Denmark, Dover, N. J.) 304
United States Army 289
United States Army Signal Corps Laboratories 286-288, 292
United States Attorney General 298, 303
United States Congress 303
United States Constitution 298
United States Department of the Air Force 304, 305
United States Government 285, 286, 289-291, 298-300, 303, 304
United States Government Air Rocket Test Station ( Lake Denmark, N. J. ) _ 304
United States Navy 305
United States Senate 297, 307
United States Transportation Control Depot (Newark, N. J.) 305
Washington, D. C 292, 293, 296
O
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS— SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE OJN
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
PURSUANT TO
S. Res. 189
PART 8
FEBRUARY 23 AND 24, 1954
Printed for the use of the Committee on Govei'nment Operations
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
40S58 WASHINGTON : 1954
Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents
JUN 1 6 1954
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
JOSEPFI R. MCCARTHY. Wisconsin. Cluiirman
KARL E. JSIUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. MoCI-RLT.AN. Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH. Maine HUPEKT H. HUMPHREr. Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho HENRY U. .TACKSON. Washington
EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY. Massachiisotts
JOHN MARSHALL PUTLER. Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER. Michisran ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
Richard J. OMblia, Oetieral Counsel
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk
Pekmanent Subcommittee on Investigations
JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY. Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT. South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois HENRY M. JACKSON. Washington
CHARLES E. POTTER. Michigan STOART SYMINGTON, Missouri
Roy M. Cohn, Chief Counsel
Francis P. Carr, Executive Director
ROBERT F. Kennedy, Chief Couthsel for Minoritt/
II
CONTENTS
Page
Appendix 353
Index I
Testimony of —
Markward, Mrs. Mary Stalcup 310,340
Moss, Mrs. Annie Lee 332
Oram, Mrs. Ctiarlotte 339
Peek, Sallie Fannie 3.38
EXHIBITS
Introdnced Appears
on page on page
18. Memorandum from Executive Secretary, Loyalty Review
Board, to Chief, Investigations Division, Civil Service Com-
mission, January 4, 1952 321 (*)
19. Job description, dated March 3, 1950, showing duties of Mrs.
Annie Lee Moss, submitted to the Senate Permanent Sub-
committee on Investigations by the Department of the
Army 323 353
♦May be found In the files of the subcommittee.
Ill
AEMY SIGNAL COKPS— SUBYEESION AND ESPIONAGE
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 23, 1954
United States Senate,
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
OF the Committee on Government Operations,
Washington^ D. C.
The subcommittee met at 10 : 45 a. m., pursuant to notice, in room 318
of the Senate Office Building, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy (chair-
man) presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin;
Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota ; Senator Charles
E. Potter, Republican, Michigan ; Senator John L. McClellan, Demo-
crat, Arkansas ; Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, Washington.
Present also : Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel ; Robert Francis Kennedy,
chief counsel for minority; Francis P. Carr, executive director;
Daniel G. Buckley, assistant counsel ; Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
This morning we will deal with the case of an alleged Communist
working in the Army Signal Corps as of today. The first witness will
be an FBI agent, an undercover agent and not an informant. This
witness will testify as to this woman's activities, and will identify other
individuals in the Communist cells to which this Signal Corps em-
ployee belonged.
The Signal Corps employee may or may not be here this morning.
Her lawyer called and said she was not feeling well and asked for per-
mission not to have her here. The doctor phoned and said she was
not able to appear, and therefore she will not have to appear.
The Civil Service Commission records will be introduced this morn-
ing to show that the Army had the same knowledge over the past
months that we have this morning. In other words, this is no surprise
to anyone, and the record w^ll show the Army was notified by our
committee some time ago that we intended to call this woman if they
would not get rid of her and develop the facts themselves.
I think that I should say in fairness to Secretary Stevens I doubt
very much that he personally knew about this case, and I think if he
did he would have taken care of it.
We will wait a few minutes until counsel gets back with the Civil
Service Commission records.
For the benefit of the other Senators, the first witness, Mrs. INIark-
ward, is on her way here now. She went to the wrong room.
In this matter now in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Mrs. Markward. I do.
309
310 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Will you take the chair over on this side, if you will,
please. I am going to ask Senator Mundt to temporarily act as chair-
man, as I have to go back to my office for a very quick appointment,
and I will be back just as quickly as I can.
(Senator Mundt assumed the chair.)
Senator Mundt. Mr. Cohn, do you wish to proceed with the ques-
tioning of the witness ?
TESTIMONY OF MES. MARY STALCUP MARKWAED
Mr. CoHN. Mrs. Markward, may we please have your full name?
Mrs. Markward. Mary Stalcup, S-t-a-1-c-u-p, Markward, M-a-r-k-
w-a-r-d.
Mr. CoHN. x\nd you reside in the vicinity of the District of
Columbia ?
Mrs. Markward. T do.
Mr. CoHN. What is your occupation now ?
Mrs. Markward. Housewife.
Mr. CoHN. Mrs. Markward, was there a time when you were an
undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
Mrs. Markward. There was.
Mr. CoHN. And as an undercover agent of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, did you join the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Markward. I did.
Mr. CoHN And for how long a period of time were you a Com-
munist ?
Mrs. Markward. I was a member of the Communist Party from
May of 1943 and I was active through October of 1949 and my dues
were paid through January of 1950.
Mr. Cohn. Now, from about 1943 to 1949 or 1950, is that right ?
Mrs. Markward. Yes.
Mr. CoHN. During the time you were in the Communist Party, wero
you at any time anything more than a mere member of the party ?
Mrs. Markward, I was .
Mr. CoHN. Did you hold any ojfice ?
Mrs. Markward. I did.
Mr. CoHN. Would you tell Chairman Mundt and the members of
the committee exactly what offices you held in the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Markward. I was named press director of the Northeast Club
of the Communist Party in October of 1943. The following January
or February I was elected to be chairman of that club. That was in
1944. About June of 1944, when the Communist Party changed to the
Communist Political Association, I was elected to the city committee
of Washington, D. C, of the Communist Political Association, and
I was elected to be treasurer and membership director of the city of
committee of Washington, D. C.
I held that position until the Communist Political Association was
changed back into the Communist Party in the summer of 1945. At
that time I was elected to the district committee of district No. 4 which
included Maryland and Washington, D. C, and I was again elected
to the district committee, excuse me, the city committee and city board
in Washington, D. C., and again elected treasurer of Washington, D. C.
And in January of 1946 I was elected to the district board, which
is the executive committee of the district committee, for district No. 4.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 311
I held those positions until the 1948 convention of the Commu-
nist Party at which time I was reelected to the district committee of
district No. 4, but was not reelected to the district board because they
greatly reduced the number of membership available on that and I was
not one of the members elected.
I was reelected to the city committee in Washington, D. C., and re-
elected treasurer of the Communist Party of Washington, D. C. I
held numerous positions on committees during that time also.
Mr. CoHN. Over the period of years that you were a Communist
for the FBI, you held many and varied official positions in the Com-
munist Party, is that correct ?
Mrs. Markward. That is true.
Senator Mundt. "WHiat was the date of your last membership con-
nection with the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Markward. My dues were paid through January of 1950. I
ceased activity at the end of October, because of illness, in 1949.
Mr. CoHN. Now, while you were in the Communist Party for the
FBI, and while you held office in the Communist Party, were you in
such a position that you were able to know the names of other mem-
bers of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Markward. I was.
Mr. CoHN. Did you report those names to the Federal Bureau of
Investigation ?
Mrs. Markward. I did.
Mr. CoHN. As a matter of fact, did you make detailed reports to
the Federal Bureau of Investigation of all the knowledge you gained
while you were in the Communist conspiracy for them ?
Mrs. Markward. I did.
Mr, CoHN. Would you tell us a little something about those reports
and what would you include in that customarily ?
Mrs. Markward. Well, customarily, I included the names and any
other pertinent information I had about any Communist Party mem-
ber. At the time of registration, I included their party -book number.
And also at the time of registration there would also come to my at-
tention other descriptive information about the Communists, such as
the type of employment they had, their age, their race, what unions
they belonged to, what other mass organizations they belonged to, and
generally a very detailed description of the party member.
I also, during 1943 and 1944 and 1945 and 1946, had access to their
address and telephone number ; and after 1946 the Communist Party
tightened its security to the point that they ceased to keep the lists of
names, of addresses, and that type of information. It was harder to
obtain that, but I did, though.
Mr. CoHN. I would like to ask you this, Mrs. Markward : How soon
after the events occurred did you make your reports to the FBI ?
Mrs. Markward. I have to answer that by saying as soon as prac-
ticable. During part of the time I had occasion that I would have
Communist Party members or guests at my home, and when they were
there it was not possible for me to type a report or to make a phone
call.
The Chairman. May I ask this question : Does that constant photo-
graphing bother you ?
Mrs. Markward. I prefer that they would not.
312 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. I wonder if the photographers would be a little
more careful. It is hard for the witness to sit right in front of you
with that flash camera ready. I know that you have a job to do and
you have been assigned to it, but we just have to cut that down a bit,
if you will.
Mr. CoHN. They were as close to the period of time in which the
events occurred that you could possibly do it ; is that right ?
Mrs. Markward. It was in general within a few days of the time
the events happened ; at the maximum amount of time.
Mr. CoHN. So that was usually within a very few days of when the
events actually occurred, and I assume a great degree of accuracy
could be achieved through that method ?
Mrs. Markward. Yes, sir.
Senator Potter. Did I understand that you were treasurer of the
Communist Political Association in Washington, D. C. ?
Mrs. Markward. Yes, sir.
Senator Potter. As treasurer the members of the association paid
their dues to you ?
Mrs. Markward. During the time of the Communist Political Asso-
ciation the members themselves paid the dues directly to me. After
the Cojnmunist Party was re-formed in 1945, and the membership was
broken down into smaller cells or clubs, I got most of the dues from
the secretary or another officer of the club. At that time I had occa-
sion to meet with the officer of the club to find out the names of the
members.
Senator Potter. Even when you were paid by another officer of
the club, you knew the members of that organization ?
Mrs. Markward. That is right; and I was responsible for every
indfvidual dues payment to the district organization; and I had to
make the checkup with the officer of the club.
Senator Potter. Therefore you were in a position to know all of
the Communists in the area?
Mrs. Markward. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. Now, after you left the Communist Party — or what
were the circumstances of your leaving the party ?
Mrs. Markward. I became ill in 1949 and it was at that time diag-
nosed as multiple sclerosis, which is a form of paralysis; and I recov-
ered, though, sufficiently to return to duty. But after 7 weeks I became
completely paralyzed, and I was unable to continue any further.
The Chairman. I was out of the room for a moment, and I assume
it has been made clear that this young lady was at all times a full-
fledged FBI agent while she was allegedly a Communist Party mem-
ber. That is correct, is it not ?
Mr. CoHN. That is right. And it is established that Mrs. Mark-
ward would submit detailed reports to the Federal Bureau of
Investigation.
The Chairman. May I say to you, Mrs. Markward, that I think
that the courage of a young lady who will join the party for the
FBI and report to the Bureau is about as great as anything that you
can find.
Senator Jackson. Did you join for the purpose of getting the
information for the FBI, or did you join initially on your own?
Mrs. Markward. I joined for the purpose of getting the information i
for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 313
Senator Jackson. From the very beginning?
Mrs. Markward. Yes.
Senator McClellax. To get this in proper perspective then, all of
the testimony that you may give here with respect to individuals who
may have been or are members of the Communist Party — all of that
information was given by you to the FBI prior to the time that you
left the party ?
Mrs. Markward. That is correct.
Senator McClelland. So that any testimony that you give now is
information that the FBI has had
Mrs. Markward. That is correct.
Senator McClellan. All of the time. And if you identify any
member or any present Government employee as a member of the Com-
munist Party here today, then that information has been in the posses-
sion of the FBI at all times since you gave it to them, and that was prior
to the time that you left the party in January of 1950 ?
Mrs. Markward. That is correct.
The Chairman. I think we can add to what Senator McClellan has
said, that under the normal procedure any report which you would
give to the FBI about an employee in any department of the Govern-
ment would be automatically turned over by the FBI to that depart-
ment. So we can assume as of today that whatever you tell us was
known to the boss of the employee concerned. Would you know that?
Mrs. Markward. I don't know that, sir; and I only know that I
gave it to the FBI and I don't know what they did with it or when.
Senator McClellan. The purpose of my question, Mr. Chairman,
was to establish the fact that any of these persons whom she names
today as members of the Communist Party, that those persons have
been known to the FBI and, through the FBI in its functioning, to the
head of any agency who now has such person in their employ; they
could have known it, did know it, and were warned of their Communist
connections.
The Chairman. I may say in confirmation of that. Senator McClel-
lan, that we will read into the record very shortly the report from the
Civil Service Commission to the Army which makes it very clear that
this information which has been developed this morning has been
known for a long time to the Army. There is nothing new about this.
Mr. CoHN. I wanted to ask you this question, or a few preliminary
questions, if I may.
After you left the Communist Party, through the FBI you were
available to various constituted agencies of government, grand juries,
and juries, to tell what you knew of the Communist conspiracy ; is that
right?
Mrs. Markavard. That is true.
Mr. CoHN. Under the sponsorship of the Department of Justice in
the past few years, you have since 1951 and 1952, 1 believe — and other
Government agencies — you have been ready, willing, and able to give
the country the benefit of what you learned in the Communist Party ;
is that right ?
Mrs. Markward. That is correct.
Mr. CoHN. Now, I want to take you back to this one thing. You told
us after you were in the party that you were, I believe, treasurer and
40558— 54— pt. 8 2
314 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
press director of the Northeast Chib of the Communist Party ; is that
correct ?
Mrs. Markwaed. That is correct.
Mr. CoHN. And as such did you know who the members of the
Northeast Ckib of the Communist Part}'' were?
Mrs. Markward. I did.
Mr. CoHN. Did you report the names of those members to the FBI?
Mrs. Markward. I did.
Mr. CoHN. We are referring here to dues-paying, card-carrying
members ; is that right ?
Mrs. Markward. That is right.
The Chairman. The principal reason you are testifying this morn-
ing is because we understand that a woman who is currently employed
by the Department of the Army, and her job description places her iii
the Army's code room in the Signal Corps, handling the incoding and
decoding of confidential and top-secret messages, may have been a
member of the cell that you have full information about, that you
may have collected her dues. This woman's name is Annie Lee Moss.
1 wonder if you would tell us now whether or not early in 1944 you
gave reports to the FBI on Annie Lee Moss.
Mrs. Markward. I did.
The Chairman. Would you tell us what you told the FBI m tnose
reports ?
Mrs. Markward. I recall, sir, that I had a woman by the name of
Annie Lee Moss on the list of card-carrying, dues-paying members oi
the Northeast Club, and at that period in the history of the Commu-
nist Party detailed lists were kept.
The Chairman. Was Annie Lee Moss a member of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Markward. She was.
The Chairman. You collected dues from Annie Lee Moss ?
Mrs. Markward. I was not specifically the dues collector at that
point. I was the chairman of the club. I had overall responsibility
for the dues collection, but I was not actually handling the funds.
The Chairman. There is no doubt in your mind that she was a
full-fledged member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Markward. Absolutely not.
The Chairman. And you reported that in detail to the FBI from
time to time ?
Mrs. Markward. I did.
The Chairman. I think at this time counsel should read into the
record the job description for Annie Lee Moss so that the Senators
may know exactly what her job is.
Senator McClellan. Mr, Chairman, just before he proceeds to do
that, may we determine whether the Annie Lee Moss that is now em-
ployed in the Government is the same Annie Lee Moss about whom
you speak, and whom you know to be a Communist ? Let us establish
that before we proceed.
The Chairman. I think that is a good idea. Senator. What was
the address of the Annie Lee Moss that we have been discussing?
Mrs. Markward. My recollection is that she had several addresses,
all of them in the area of Second and F Streets NW., in Washington,
D.C.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 315
The Chairman. Wliat was her occupation?
Mrs. Markward. She was a cafeteria worker.
The Chairman. At the time you knew her?
Mrs. Markward. That is right.
The Chairman. Where did she work at that time?
Mrs. Markward. In the Pentagon.
The Chairjsian. May I ask the chief counsel or the chief of staff
whether they have checked to determine that Annie Lee Moss is now
there in the code room in the Signal Corps, and was at that time
working in the cafeteria, and whether or not that address has been
checked? Have you found the address and the general location the
same as described by the witness ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir, we have. From the records of her employment
with the Army, it is reflected that she lived at 5251/2 Second Street
NW., Washington, D. C, during the period from November 1942 to
June 1943.
The Chairman. She was a cafeteria worker ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. At the time that Mrs. Markward knew her?
Mr. Carr. Yes.
The Chairman. Am I correct in this, that she was suddenly pro-
moted to the code room?
Mr. Carr. She subsequently went to the code room; yes. This is
not directly from this job.
The Chairman. I see.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, may I ask if Annie Lee Moss
is present ? If she is, I would like to have the witness identify her,
if she knew her personally. Did you know her personally ?
Mrs. Markward. I don't
The Chairman. May I say first. Senator, I do not know whether
she is present or not. We told her lawyer that this testimony would
be taken this morning, and he said that Annie Lee Moss was ill. We
told him that if he assured us that her doctor said she could not be
here, we would not require her to be here. I am not sure if she is in
the room or not.
Senator Jackson. Before the job description is read into the rec-
ord
The Chairman. Just a moment. We will check to see if she is here.
Senator McClellan. May I inquire of the witness, did you know
her personally so you could identify her as a person, or was it only as
a name to you as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Markward. I don't specifically recall that I do know her as a
person. I don't recall that I don't know her as a person, either. I
just have no specific recollection on that point.
Sanator McClellan. What I am trying to determine, could you
identify her if she was present ?
Mrs. Markward. I am not sure whether I could or not.
Senator McClellan. We will have to establish the connection
through other means. I thought maybe you could identify her.
Mrs. Markward. I am very, veiy sure of the name, and the matter
that she was a dues paying member as a matter of fact.
The Chairman. First, is Annie Lee Moss here this morning ?
(No response.)
316 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. CoHN. Mr. Carr just advises me that she is not here due to ill-
ness, that her lawyer has submitted to the committee a written certifi-
cate to the effect she is ill and could not be here and stating he has
been advised we would proceed this morning whether she was here
or not, and he would have her appear at some subsequent time, as soon
as her health is regained, to testify. I have asked that certificate be
brought up here so it can be entered into the record.
The Chairman. May I ask this question, and I think Senator Mc-
Clellan raises a good point.
Mrs. Markward, you have been cooperating with our committee and
the FBI. You know much more about this woman obviously than
any of the committee and the staff know. Having informed of her ad-
dress and checked her employment, is there any question at all at this
time that the Annie Lee Moss that you are discussing is the Annie Lee
Moss that is now working in the code room of the Pentagon ?
Mrs. Markward. No question in my mind, sir.
The Chairman. I understand you will also identify other members
of that particular Communist cell ; is that correct ?
Mrs. Markward. I can, sir ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Let me ask counsel this : Do the records show that
the FBI through the Civil Service Commission reported to the Army
that the Annie Lee Moss who is now doing the decoding, the routing
of messages from CIA, other sensitive agencies, is the same Annie Lee
Moss that this witness is now discussing ?
Mr. CoHN. I believe there is no question about that, Mr. Chair-
man. Our information from the Civil Service Commission was to
the effect that the FBI report shows that not only was Mrs. Markward
available, but there were other witnesses whom the FBI had as in-
formants in the party who knew Annie Lee Moss as a member of the
Communist Party, and all of that information has been supplied to
the Civil Service Commission and to the Army, and specifically, Mr.
Chairman, we were told, and I think some of the records reflect this,
under date in September of 1951, the FBI filed supplemental report?
with the Civil Service Commission and with the Department of the
Army giving to them the benefit of the information not only sup-
plied by Mrs. Markward, but supplied by other FBI informants con-
cerning the Annie Lee Moss. Mrs. Markward has been exposed and
is available to testify publicly. Insofar as any of the other witnesses
are concerned, that is a matter which we will have to take up witli
the Department of Justice and the FBI and the Army.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, the only thing I have in mind
is that we are talking about a name here. I do not know whether there
is anyone else that could possibly qualify or be identified as another
Annie Lee Moss. I am simply trying to establish once and for all, and
right in the beginning of this hearing, that the Annie Lee Moss we are
talking about, and taking testimony about here, is the Annie Lee ]\1osp
who is now employed by the Federal Government. If we can get that.
then we can proceed. No doubt you can connect it up, but if it can
be connected right in the beginning of the hearing and definitely
establish that fact, then we know all the time whom we are talkinj:
about.
The Chairman. I think Senator McClellan raises a very good point, j),
Would you give us the address of the Annie Lee Moss who work? j
in the coding room, her address at that time? Is that in the report?
Senator Jackson. Mr. Cohn, I understood you to say that there are
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 317
some other witnesses that knew Annie Lee Moss to be a member of the
Communist Party. Do we have those ?
Mr. GoHN. I explained on that, Senator, that as far as the informa-
tion we have is concerned, those witnesses have up until this time been
confidential informants of the FBI who have not been exposed. We
put in a formal request with the Department of Justice and the FBI
to see whether or not we could secure the release of any of those wit-
nesses. They told us this much, that all the information concerning
the testimony of those other witnesses on this same person as well as
what Mrs. Markward has to say has been supplied to the agency in-
volved, and to the civil service.
Senator Jackson. I take it that information is in her FBI file ?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir ; it is.
Senator Jackson. The Annie Lee Moss FBI file.
Mr. CoHN. That is correct. There is only one Annie Lee Moss FBI
file, and only one Annie Lee Moss Department of Justice file. We
have ascertained that and have been told that the Annie Lee Moss
Mrs. Markward is talking about is the Annie Lee Moss that the file
deals with, and there is no other.
Senator Jackson. While we are waiting for the address, may I ask
a preliminary question to get the record straight ?
The Chairman. Certainly. May I say that before this witness was
called this morning, we checked in detail, and there is no doubt in the
mind of any of the staff members that the Annie Lee Moss reported
to the Army by the Civil Service Commission as a member of the
Communist Party is the same person that this witness is describing
this morning.
Senator Jackson. I just want to get these things in the record. I
appreciate that.
The Chairman. May I say this : I do not know whether the other
witnesses will be available to testify in public session or not. I know
that all the Senators realize that the FBI, doing the tremendous job
it is doing, cannot at all times make available for public testimony
their undercover agents. They have made available this young lady.
But her testimony has been firmed in every detail by other undercover
agents.
Is that correct, Mr. Carr and Mr. Cohn ?
Mr. CoHN. That is correct. I believe the file is in the possession
of the Civil Service Commission and the Department of the Army,
and
Senator Jackson. There is certain basic information I want to get
here preliminary to our proceeding further. That was all.
Senator Potter. Mr. Chairman, I think it could very easily be estab-
lished, first, the time when you submitted your information on Annie
Lee Moss. Then I would assume that the FBI, if she held a certain
position, certainly followed her by file, at least, from job to job.
There would be no difliculty if you establish this Annie Lee Moss
was working in the cafeteria that Mrs. Markward was talking about
at that time, and is now holding this job, and that seems to be t:he only
Annie Lee Mos.s
The Chairman. May I say there is no difficulty, and you are com-
pletely correct, Senator Potter. This woman was reported by this
FBI undercover agent to the Bureau repeatedly as a member of the
318 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Communist Party. All of her activities were known. We have a
Civil Service Commission report here to the Army in which the Civil
Service Commission confirms this, I think, in as much detail as
possible.
Senator Mundt. Why do we not resolve this thing by reading into
the record the chronological steps this young lady made in the transi-
tion from a cafeteria worker to a Signal Corps worker.
The Chairman. May I say this was about to be done by my chief
counsel until I and some other Senators interrupted him.
Senator Jackson. Before we do that, Mr. Chairman, this is not a
matter of interruption. I just want to get the record straight of the
membership of Annie Lee Moss in the Communist Party. I do not
believe that is complete in the record at this point. I think it is very
relevant to her later employment in the Federal Government.
I understand you joined the Communist Party in 1942.
Mrs. Markward. May 1943.
Mr. Jackson. You joined the Northeast Club ?
Mrs. Markward. That is right.
Senator Jackson. Was Annie Lee Moss a member of the club at
that time ?
Mrs. Markward. I cannot recall specifically. May I explain just
why? I knew nothing about the Communist Party when I joined it.
I learned almost to speak a new language. Everybody I met were
new people.
Senator Jackson. How many in the club ?
Mrs. Markward. I should imagine there were 30 people present
at the first meeting I attended. It was not possible for me to remem-
ber all their names and all their faces that first time. I did not have
access to their records for some months after I joined the Communist
Party. They don't even open their records to all the club members.
I cannot recall right now when exactly the first time I came across the
name of Annie Lee Moss. I do recall she was on the membership
records. There were records that she did make dues payments. There
is a record she was issued a party book and she had that party book.
Senator Jackson. Do you recall whether or not she ever attended
a meeting ?
Mrs. Markward. I cannot recall specifically.
Senator Jackson. That she ever attended a meeting? When did
her name disappear from the books of the Northeast Club?
Mrs. Markward. The Northeast Club itself was dissolved when the
Communist Political Association was formed in June of 1944. Some-
time to the best of my recollection between the time the Communist
Political Association was formed and the time the Communist Party
was re-formed in AVashington was October 1945, her name was dropped
from our rolls.
Senator Jackson. Her name was not on the rolls in 1945 ?
Mrs. Markward. In October of of 1945, to the best of my recollec-
tion.
Senator Jackson. Of the Communist Political Association.
Mrs. Markward. That is correct.
Senator Jackson. Was her name on the rolls of the Northeast Club
of the Communist Party prior to that transition ?
Mrs. Markward. To the best of my recollection, it was, sir.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 319
Senator Jackson. Was it ever on the rolls of the Communist Polit-
ical Association ?
Mrs. Markward. It was.
Senator Jackson. It was on the rolls ?
Mrs. ]\Iarkward. Yes.
Senator Jackson. How long did it remain on the rolls of the Com-
munist Political Association ?
Mrs. Markward. I cannot recall specifically.
Senator Jackson. But do you know why her name no longer ap-
peared at a latter date on the rolls of the Communist Political Associa-
tion ?
Mrs. Markward. No ; I don't.
Senator Jackson. How many members were there in the Communist
Political Club Association at that time ?
Mrs. Markward. Around 280 or somewhere around there, or 300.
Senator Jackson. Around 280?
Mrs. Markward. Something like that, for the whole city of Wash-
ington.
- Senator Jackson. That was for the whole city. They dissolved
the sectional breakdown of the Communist organization ?
Mrs. Markward. That is correct.
Senator Jackson. Do you have any recollection of ever having met
her or seen her ?
Mrs. Markward. I am not positive, sir, whether I have or not.
Senator Jackson. Did you ever have any information that she ever
attended a meeting or was active in the Communist Party or Political
Association ?
Mrs. Markward. As I say, my recollection is not such, sir, that I
would definitely want to make a commitment one way or another.
1 cannot specifically say she did any particular act on any particular
date, no.
Senator Jackson. Is it your judgment that she left the Communist
Party in 1945 when her name disappeared?
Mrs. Markward. That is right.
Senator Potter. Would the Senator yield at that point ?
Senator Jackson. You say she left the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Markward. She was removed from the rolls of the Communist
Party.
Senator Jackson. What would that indicate ?
Mrs. Markward. It would indicate if she had taken Government
employment, she would have been dropped from the rolls of the Com-
munist Party in Washington.
The Chairman. It was the rule of the Communist Party at that
time that when anyone took Government employment, especially in
any sensitive job, that their name was removed from the rolls?
Mrs. Markward. Whenever anyone was employed by the Federal
Government, they were removed from the rolls, I call it the open
party of the Communist Party, including the Communist Political
Association.. That even included the white-collar clubs. Their
organization for the Government employees was an underground
organization that was not composed of party members who carried
cards.
The Chairman. Senator Potter.
320 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Senator Potter. I was going to ask the same question.
The Chairman. I am sorry. Then as far as you know, in view
of that, you had no evidence whatsover that she broke with the party,
and being an officer in the Communist Party at that time, I assume
if she had broken with the party, you would have known that?
Mrs. Markward. I know very definitely she was not expelled by
the party.
The Chairman. She was not expelled by the party and did not
break with it as far as you know ?
Mrs. Markward. That is right.
Senator Potter. It was a practice when they received Government
employment, they would cease their active participation in the Com-
munist Party?
Mrs. Markward. That is correct.
Senator Potter. And they would go into inactive status or under-
cover status, is that right ?
Mrs. Markward. The general policy was that after they had been
in the more exposed part of the party, such as the Northeast Club
was, that at most they let them sleep a little while before they were
picked up by a more sensitive group of the Communist Party, because
they didn't want an exposed person to expose the secret members.
Senator Potter. In other words, it was just a normal procedure. If
she received Government employment, she was taken off the active
party rolls.
Mrs. Markward. That is correct.
Senator McClellan. Mrs. Markward, I think it might be helpful
to establish from your experience, at least, and your connections with
the party and official position, did you have any way of knowing
and determining when one left the party voluntarily of their own
volition? Would you be able to know in this particular instance
whether when her name was removed from the rolls she had resigned
or actually quit the party, or if it was a matter of the mechanism of
the party in dropping her name so as not to expose her if she went to
work for the Government?
Mrs. Markward. I
Senator McClellan. What I am trying to determine, could you
tell us the difference in the names removed from the rolls?
Mrs. Markward. Yes.
Senator McClellan. Could you determine, and were you able to
determine in this particular instance, whether her name being removed
was an act of her own voluntarily and on her own initiative in quit-
ting the party, or was it because she had accepted a position in the
Government ?
Mrs. Markward. I again must say that I do not have a specific rec-
ollection of just what came about. That was many, many years ago.
Senator McClellan. I am sure it was, but what I am trying to
determine is this : Suppose she comes in and says, "Yes, I was a mem-
ber a little while and found out what it was and became disillusioned
and disgusted with it and I quit." How are we going to determine
whether that statement is true? Can you give us any information
that would help us in judging that problem?
Mrs. Markward. That information undoubtedly came to my at-
tention at the time it happened. The FBI would have that in my
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 321
reports. As I say, I am not sure enough right now to make a definite
statement one way or the other here.
Senator McClellan. You have no doubt that she was a member?
Mrs. Markward. I have no doubt she was a member.
Senator McClellan. And you know her name was removed from
the rolls in 1945 ?
Mrs. Markward. That is correct.
Senator McClellan. I do not know what is going to happen, but
I am trying to determine how to judge this matter if that is admitted
later, and they contend it is a voluntary withdrawal from the party.
Senator Potter. What was the Communist policy or practice
The Chairman. May I interrupt there for just a moment to point
out that in September 1951, that is a considerable period of time after
the date this young lady is testifying about, the FBI submitted a
supplemental report of investigation in this case which was sent to
the Army for consideration. This obviously would not have been
done unless they had other informants showing that this woman,
Annie Lee Moss, still was a member of the party in 1951. The memo-
randum is available for the Senators in case they want it. In fact, I
think it should be filed with the record as an exhibit.
(The memorandum referred to above was marked "Exhibit No. 18"
and may be found in tlie files of the subcommittee. )
Senator Jackson. Do you have any recollection of Annie Lee Moss
being active or having any connection with the Communist Party after
1945 ?
Mrs. Markward. I do not.
Senator Jackson. Did you have any information on the so-called
unlisted members or secret members ?
Mrs. Markward. The only information I had about them was in
transferring members in and out of that group. I had enough
information to know a few of the individuals to know their procedures
and their cooling-ofF periods when they were going in and out of
Government, and by providing literature to them, and that type of
activity.
Senator Jackson. In that connection, you do not recall the name
of Annie Lee Moss at any time ?
Mrs. Markward. No, sir.
Senator Potter. Was it not the policy of the Communist Party at
that time that when somebody left the party for a voluntary reason
that the party followed up to find out why they left the party and tried
to bring them back to the fold ? Is that true ?
Mrs. Markward. Yes, sir; they did.
Senator Potter. And if they left for voluntary reason, certainly as
an officer of the club you would have some knowledge that there was
a deviation on her part and an effort would be made to reinstate her
or get her dues or bring her back into the party ?
Mrs. Markward. It would have been my responsibility to do that.
Senator Potter. You have no recollection that this was the case as
it relates to Annie Lee Moss ?
Mrs. Markward. That is correct.
Tlie Chairman. May I ask, is there a representative of the Depart-
ment of the Army here today ?
(No response.)
4055&— 54— pt. 8 3
322 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Is there any representative of the Department of
the Army here today ?
(No response.)
The Chairman. Is it correct that there is a representative here?
I would like to know, because it would seem that the Department of
the Army should be sufficiently interested in this case to send one here.
Is there someone here ? You may sit up here, Mr. Berry, if you care to.
May I say at this time that I sincerely ho^^e that all the facts in this
case are brought to the attention of the Secretary of the Army. I
think he has been grossly misinformed, misadvised. I do not think
that Bob Stevens wants to protect Communists in the Aniiy, any
more than any member of this committee does. I hope he gets all
of the details of this case.
I may say I was very much disturbed to find the Secretary of the
Army giving the members of this committee a memorandum telling
them what happened in executive session before he even asked for a
copy of the testimony at that executive session, before he even called
me to ask what had occurred. I just hope that in the future, Mr.
Berry, and I am not blaming you because this is the first time you
have been present at these hearings
Mr. Berry. That is right.
The Chairman. I sincerely hope in the future that the Secretary
of the Army is given all the facts, and I sincerely hope that before he
goes to any members of this subcommittee and tries to tell them what
happened in executive session at which he was not present, that he
at least ask me for a copy of the official reporter's transcript of what
occurred.
Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, to answer your question you asked a few
minutes ago, and I believe the question Senator Potter and Senator
Mundt raised, the file we have shows that Annie Lee Moss transferred
apparently from the job as cafeteria worker to a job as an under-
clerk in the Govermnent in the year 1945, I believe on January 15,
1945. She worked as an underclerk, then. Senator.
Senator Jackson. What agency was that ?
Mr. CoHN. That was in the General Accounting Office, I believe,
Senator Jackson. After that she went from underclerk to clerk to
assistant comj)uter in the General Accounting Office. She was trans-
ferred over to the Department of the Army in 1949 or 1950. We will
try to get that exact date. I think it was 1950. She went to work
in the General Accounting Office for the Govenunent at the beginning
of January 15, 1945.
Was that during the Communist Political Association period ?
Mrs. INIarkward. Yes.
Mr. CoHN. Could that be around the time she disappeared from the
rolls?
Mrs. Markward. It could be.
Mr. CoiiN. It was within that general period ?
Mrs. Markward. That is right.
Mr. CoHN. The Communist Political Association was in existence
for about a year, is that right ?
Mrs. Markward. From June of 1944 or the end of May 1944 until
the summer of 1945.
Mr. CoHN. Just a little bit over a year.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 323
Mrs. Markward. Yes. In Washington we were delayed in having
our official convention, and the change officially was the 14th of Oc-
tober 1945 when we got the name of Communist Party again.
Mr. CoHN. So this General Accounting Office employment on the
part of Annie Lee Moss was commenced during the Communist Po-
litical Association general period when you say she disappeared from
the rolls, is that right ?
Miss Markward. That is right.
Mr. CoHN. She worked there until the middle of 1944 and on De-
cember 19, 1950, she received an appointment as a communications
clerk in the office of the Chief Signal Officer in the Department of the
Army, and she has been there ever since. We have a job description
which has been supplied to us by the Army, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Before you read that into the record, is it correct,
Mr. Counsel, that this witness is in a position to name other members
of the same Communist cell to which Annie Lee Moss belonged, that
those members of this cell are here in the room today ?
Mr. CoiiN. I believe she can name members of the cell and func-
tionaries of the party at the period of time in which we are particu-
larly interested.
The Chairman. And those other members of the same Communist
cell are here in the room available to testify ?
Mr. CoHN. Some of them are, Mr. Chairman.
The CiiAiRJviAN. I think it is a good idea to read the job description
into the record.
Mr. CoiiN. The job description supplied us by the Army and drawn
up at the time of the appointment of Annie Lee Moss and this job
description is dated March 3, 1950.
Major duties: 1. Receiving messages over radio or wire circuits
from stations all over the world. Examines messages received in
tape form, in code and clear text from receiving banks to determine
coherence thereof, whether numbers are in correct sequence. Cor-
rects, if necessary, time and date group, precedence and whether com-
plete, and to determine from the procedure headings how the messages
should be disposed of, and so on, and so forth.
No. 1, final disposition of messages. Continuing the job description
of Annie Lee Moss under No. 2, as workload requires ascertain and
record final disposition on messages addressed to this station and
originating overseas or by the State Department, the Army Security
Agency, Central Intelligence Agency, General Staff and so forth. To
determine that final disposition has been completed by the communi-
cations center on such messages.
That is the general. Then there are other duties, such as occa-
sionally transmitting messages over radio or wire circuits.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, I suggest we put the whole analysis
in the record at this point.
The Chairman. I think that is a good idea. That will be marked
"Exhibit 19" and filed with the record.
(The job description was marked as "Exhibit No. 19" and will be
found in the appendix on p. 353. )
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, we also have as you know from the Civil
Service Commission various records indicating that the FBI has over
a period of years been submitting reports in the case of this Annie
324 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Lee Moss, both to the Civil Service Commission, and copies to the
Department of the Army.
Senator Jackson. May I ask at this point a question ?
The Chairman. May I first say this, if I may. Let us make it
clear at this time, in previous hearings when we mentioned the P'BI,
certain members of the press, being honestly mistaken, I am sure,
being confused by the reference to the FBI, assumed that we were
talking about reports which this committee got from the FBI. Let
us make it clear there that we are referring to the files which we
subpenaed from the Army and the Civil Service Commission, which
files, in turn, refer to FBI reports. We are not referring today to
any original reports received directly from the FBI. Just so there
is no question about that.
Senator Jackson. Just this one question, Mr. Chairman. Is there
anything in her FBI file, or any information that the committee has
that she was a member of the Communist Party after 1945, while she
was employed in the Government ?
The Chairman. The answer is "Yes."
Senator Jackson. There is an FBI report that she continued to be
a member of the Communist Party and is one at the present time?
The Chairman. I do not know as of today or this moment, you
understand, because the new formula you know is to quit the day
before you are called before the committee, or the day before you are
subpenaed. We know that adverse reports were submitted on this
woman as late as September 1951.
Senator Jackson. Adverse reports, or
The Chairman. Eeports from the Bureau concerning Coinmunist
activities.
Senator Jackson. Of Mrs. Moss?
The Chairman. Of Mrs. Moss, in September 1951.
Mr. CoHN. That is the latest date.
Senator Jackson. I read this report, and I can refer to it without
any breach of confidence.
The Chairman. The entire report can be put in the record, so there
is no breach of confidence at all.
Senator Jackson. I read the report, and from the report all I have
is that there is supplemental information and the finding that it was
not new, that the Board considered the information that had been
given previously.
The Chairman. That is incorrect. Senator. There are two addi-
tional informants
Senator Jackson. I am just speaking of the report, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Let me make it very clear now so there is no ques-
tion about this. There are additional informants, who I hope will be
available in any criminal action — I am not sure if they will be avail-
able to testify in a public session — there is no question about the fact
that this woman, Annie Lee Moss, who is now handling the encoding,
decoding, the routing of classified work, has been an active member
of the Communist Party. There is nothing in the record to show that
she ever broke with the party. I may say in view of the fact that she
is not here this morning, I believe she will deny membership in the
party herself.
Senator Jackson. She will deny membership ?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 325
The Chairman. I understand she will. She will not claim it is
misidentity. She will not claim that she reformed. We have in this
room five people who will be identified by this FBI agent who is on
the stand now as members of the same Communist cell to which Annie
Lee Moss belonged. They will be called to the stand. They will be
put under oath. They will be asked to testify. I assume they having
been identified as members of the Communist conspiracy will take
the fifth amendment.
Senator Jackson. As you recall, they did not take the fifth amend-
ment in the committee as to knowing her.
The Chairman. Let us keep the record straight. If we are going
to discuss the executive testimony, I would prefer not to. I would
prefer putting these people on the stand and having everyone here
hear them. If we start discussing executive testimony, Senator, we
are relying on your memory and mine. I do not want to do that. We
have both heard these witnesses in executive session. If you insist
upon discussing executive testimony, I will discuss it.
Senator Jackson. I did not bring it up.
The Chairman. But as chairman I would much prefer not to discuss
it, because those witnesses will all be called to the stand and I would
like to have the members of the press and the people in the room here
hear those witnesses under oath. That will be the ruling unless the
committee disagrees with me.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that since you
are going to have those witnesses testify, that we had in executive
session, let us proceed to have this witness identify them, or those of
them she can, before they are placed on the stand.
The Chairman. That" is what we will do if we ever get to it.
Mr. Cohn. I wanted to ask you this. Our information was that
Annie Lee Moss at a time roomed with a woman named Hattie Griffith.
Do you know Hattie Griffith?
Mrs. Markward. I do.
Mr. Cohn. Did you come in contact with Hattie Griffith in the
Communist Party?
Mrs. Markward. I did.
Mr. Cohn. In what capacity?
Mrs. Markward. She and her husband were both members and we
held Communist Party meetings in their home.
Mr. Cohn. Wliere was that home located ?
Mrs. Markward. I believe the address was 639 Second Street NW.
That is within 2 or 3 numbers of being right. I believe it was 639.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know whether or not Annie Lee Moss was shar-
ing that home at that time ?
Mrs. Markward. I don't recall.
The Chairman. Has it been established that she was living there
at that time?
Mr. Cohn. It has been established that Hattie Griffith was the room-
mate of Annie Lee Moss at that time. I want to hedge on the exact
address, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. We will have that established under oath. Thank
you.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a woman by the name of Sallie Peak 2
Mrs. Markward. I do.
326 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. CoHN. Would she be in a position to know of the Communist
Party membership of Annie Lee Moss ? Could she be one of those ?
Mrs. Markward. In my opinion she would, sir.
Mr. CoHN. Can you tell us about Sallie Peak? Was she herself a
Communist?
Mrs. Markward, Sallie Peak was a member of the city committee
all the time I was a member of the Communist Party and the Commu-
nist Political Association. She was a Communist who was sent to the
National Training School of the Communist Party in New York for
further education. She was also a functionary in the cafeteria
workers union in Washington, D. C. She was an officer also of the
cafeteria workers club after it was reestablished in 1945.
Senator Mundt. Sallie Peak you knew personally and could iden-
tify her?
Mrs. Markward. Definitely.
Senator Mundt. What is her nationality ?
Mrs. Markward. She is an American Negro.
Mr. CoHN. I want to ask you this one question, Mrs. Markward.
Were you at all times after you broke with the party available to
api^ear at the request of the Army or the Civil Service Commission ?
Mrs. Markward. Of course, I was unable to appear for a while
because I was not in physical condition, but the Communist Party
wrote an article in the Daily Worker in February of 1951 saying that
they had expelled me. I have never had any direct contact from them.
Subsequent to that, I was subpenaed by the House Un-American Ac-
tivities Committee and did testify before them in executive sessions.
They had asked me to appear in public session about the 11th of July
1951, and in some manner a reporter on the Washington newspaper
got hold of my executive committee testimony and on the 6th of July
1951 that was published. From that time on, as far as I was con-
cerned, I certainly was in a position to appear publicly and testify.
Mr. CoHN. Did the Army, which we know from the documented
evidence of the Civil Service Commission was notified by the Civil
Service Commission and the FBI concerning the Communist activities
of Annie Lee Moss, or any representative of the Army, ever speak
to you about Annie Lee Moss or ever ask you for the information
you had concerning her Communist Party membership ?
Mrs. Markward. They have not.
Mr. CoHN. Would you have been willing to give that information
to the Army, the information that Annie Lee Moss, residing on Second
Street, working in a cafeteria at that time, as the file shows this very
same Annie Lee Moss did, you reported to the Bureau was a dues-
paying member, would you have given that information to the Army ?
Mrs. Markward. I certainly would.
Mr. CoHN. And they never asked you for that information ; is that
correct?
Mrs. Markward. They did not.
Senator Mundt. Along that same line, may I ask, were you ever
called before any Civil Service Loyalty Board to testify about Annie
Lee Moss ?
Mrs. Markward. I was not.
Senator Mundt. Were you ever called before the so-called Presi-
dent's Loyalty Board or any other loyalty board established by the
executive agency of the Government to testify about Annie Lee Moss ?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 327
Mrs. Markward. I was not.
Senator Mundt. In other words, you testified only before the FBI
and the House Un-American Activities Committee. Those were the
only two ?
Mrs. Markward. That is correct.
Senator Mundt. I think it is rather significant, Mr. Chairman,
because of the Loyalty Board records that we have here that she
was not called before the Loyalty Board to testify at all.
The Chairman. I may say. Senator, I agree with you. I thmk
it is inconceivable that a woman who would be handling encoding
and decoding of classified material, her superiors knew that this
agent of the FBI, Mrs. Markward, was available to testify, and
they would clear this Annie Lee Moss without even calling Mrs.
Markward as a witness. It is unheard of.
Again may I say, so that this will not be interpreted as any attack
upon Secretary Stevens, I know he has been absent from his desk
in the Pentagon on official business a great deal of the time since
he has been appointed. I feel confident that he did not know about
this case. We will ask him about it Thursday.
Senator Potter. Mr. Chairman, could I ask you or the counsel as
to when the Loyalty Board hearings were held ?
Mr. CoHN. I believe there was one. Senator Potter, in 1948, and
there was another review of the case in 1951.
Senator Potter. Did the Loyalty Board have the information from
the FBI concerning Mrs. Markward ?
Mr. CoHN. The Loyalty Board had some of the information and
had Mrs. Markward listed as a confidential informant at that time.
Senator Potter. So the Loyalty Board had information that Mrs.
Markward was available and had information on the person under
consideration ; is that correct ?
JNIr. CoHN. I think the fact on that is this. Senator Potter, and I
think it is very important. Mrs. Markward was probably listed in
the FBI reports as a confidential informant while under cover with
the FBI in the party. When slie broke from the party she then be-
came available to the various Government agencies as a live witness
ready to testify under oath. Our information is that on Septem-
ber 11, 1951, the Civil Service Commission and the Army received
letters from J. Edgar Hoover notifying them that Mrs. Markward
was now available to appear in person and give the benefit of her
knowledge, which she had given years before to the FBI, concerning
the Communist Party membership of this Annie Lee Moss to the
Army, to the Civil Service Commission, and to any loyalty boards
that might desire to have that information. In other words, she had
changed from the status of a confidential informant to an informant
of the FBI who was now available to testify under oath.
Senator McClellan. Counsel, will you state again the dates of
those loyalty hearings?
Mr. CoiiN. Let me see if I can get them exact.
The Chairman. May we also have the record clear that this young
lady was not an informant. She was an agent. There is a big
difference.
Mr. Cohn. The second hearing
328 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Senator Potter. Is that the last hearing ?
Senator McClelland. Just give me the dates of the hearing.
Mr. CoHN. That is what I am trying to get.
Senator McClelland. What I want to determine is whether she
was available then as a witness.
Mr. CoHN. June 23, 1948, her case was decided by the loyalty board.
October 20, 1949, it was postaudited by the Loyalty Keview Board.
That was while she was with the General Accounting Office, and
after that she was transferred to the Department of the Army. The
exact date of her transfer I now see is December 15, 1950. She was
appointed to the Office of the Chief Signal Officer of the Department
of the Army. On January 21, 1951, a new loyalty hearing was held,
and she was rated eligible.
The Chairman. Let us stop there. On January 21, 1951, were you
available to testify, Mrs. Markward?
Mrs. Markward. It was not public knowledge at that time that I
had broken with the Communist Party. However, I had an under-
standing with the Department of Justice that by that time I was
available to testify.
The Chairman. In other words, you would not know whether you
were available or not from your own knowledge. That would have
been decided by the Department of Justice.
Mrs. Markward. That is right. I at that time knew I was available
when they decided to call on me.
The Chairman. In other words, you were no longer active as an
undercover agent, so there was no reason why you could not have
been available to testify at that time?
Mrs. Markward. That is right.
Mr. CoHN. But the fact that you did not testify, I believe the first
time you testified was some time in July.
Mrs. Markward. That is right, the first public testimony I gave.
Mr. CoHN. I wanted to finish this chronology for Senator
McClellan.
Senator McClellan. That is late enough. You are down to 1951.
Senator Potter. If there is any later, let us have it.
Mr. CoHN. January 21, 1951, she is rated eligible by the Loyalty
Board to continue with the Army in this sensitive position. After
that point, Mrs. Markward testified in July of 1951 for the first time,
and our information is that on September 11, a memo was sent by J.
Edgar Hoover — September 11, 1951 — to the Army and Civil Service
Commission, apparentl}^ according to our information saying, "We
have been advised that you have found this Annie Lee Moss to be
loyal and are allowing her to continue on this job. We wish to call
your attention to the fact that Mrs. Markward, who previously was a
confidential informant is now available to come forward and testify"
and an FBI report to that effect was formally submitted on September
27, 1951, by the FBI to the Civil Service Commission and was referred
by the Civil Sei*vice Commission to the Department of the Army on
November 24, 1951.
Senator McClellan. What I wanted to determine is — and that
information is helpful — during the Loyalty Board hearings she was
not available for testimony until at least January 21, 1951; is that
correct?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 329
Mrs, Markwaru. That is correct, sir.
Senator McClellan. It is subsequent to that where the faihire may
luive occurred that they did not call you after it was made known to
them by this memorandum that counsel has referred to. They did
know it from that time on that you were available to give testimony of
information you had gained as an agent for the FBI and subsequently,
as I understand it, the Loyalty Board did not review it or take any
further action but merely referred it to the Army and the Army took
no action, and she is still in the service.
Mr. CoHN. Exactly, sir.
The Chairman. ]\Iay I say, Senator, in the memorandum that the
Army took the position that it is up to the Civil Service Connnission
to handle the case. Tlie Civil Service Commission took the position
that it was up to the Army to handle it. Is that correct?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, I would say that is correct.
The Chairman. Mrs. IMarkward, we have five witnesses here in the
room that have been identified by you as members of the same Com-
munist cell to which Annie Lee Moss belonged or connected with the
])arty at the time you were an official of the party. It is now 12
o'clock. I hate to impose upon you, but if it is agreeable to the other
members of tlie committee, we will order the witnesses to appear
tomorrow morning — and Mrs. Markward, we will ask you to appear
at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. That may be made 10 : 30, depend-
ing on the necessity for an executive session earlier. I think we
better make it 10 : 30 because I fear we will have to have an executive
session at 9 : 30. So we will ask you all to come back at 9 : 30 tomorrow
morning.
I think we should at this time make it a part of the record that the
House committee, Mr. Velde's committee, has done some excellent
research in this same case, and has been doing, I think, an outstanding
job, and has been just as much alarmed by tliis situation as we are. I
would like to make it clear that our staff will continue to work with
the House committee to make sure there is not any duplication of
effort in this particular Communist case.
Thank you very much.
(Thereupon, at 12 o'clock noon, a recess was taken until Wednesday,
Februin y 24, 1954, at 10 : 30 a. m.)
40558—54— pt. S- 4
ARMY SIGNAL COEPS— SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 1954
United States Senate,
Permanent Subcommittee on Inmsstigations
or THE Committee on Government Operations,
Washington^ D. G.
The committee met at 10 : 35 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room 318
of the Senate Office Building, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy (chair-
man) presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin;
Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota; Senator Charles
E. Potter, Republican, Michigan ; Senator John L. McClellan, Demo-
crat, Arkansas; Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, Washington.
Present also : Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel ; Robert Francis Kennedy,
chief counsel for minority; Francis P. Carr, executive director;
Daniel G. Buckley, assistant counsel ; Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
JNIr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, we would like to note for the record at
this time that we had under subpena for executive session today a
woman who has been identified publicly and frequently as one of the
top Communist functionaries in the District of Columbia and her
husband who has likeAvise been identified as a top Communist in this
area. They were subpenaed at 8 o'clock last night and spoke with
the committee investigator and asked not to testify in public session
today, but asked rather to talk with you.
That was done, and as you know they both indicated that since
they were subpenaed by this committee, they desired to break with
the party and were willing to supply all of the information in their
possession concerning Communist activities in the District.
With reference to the specific cases at hand, the woman named Annie
Lee Moss was a member of the Northeast Club of the Communist
Party, confirming the testimony of Mrs. Markward yesterday. That
testimony you took under oath, in sworn form. Having done that,
you ruled that the two witnesses would go to the Federal Bureau of
Investigation forthwith and give to the FBI the benefit of all of
their knowledge on the Communist conspiracy and that this com-
mittee would defer calling them or releasing their names until such
time as they had given the Bureau full information.
The Chairman. May I say that is subject to the approval of the
committee? I think that this is subject to the approval of the com-
mittee, naturally. We had subpenaed these witnesses as hostile wit-
nesses. The Bureau has been trying to get information from them for
a long time. This morning they decided for the first time they would,
or, rather, it was last night, and they decided that they would break
with the party and would give us all of the information they have.
331
332 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
As you know, that is a rather emotional turmoil on the part of some
who have been leaders of the party. I felt it would be a mistake to
call them in public session until the Bureau or the FBI has an oppor-
tunity to get all of the information possible from them.
Senator Potter. I think that is a wise course.
Senator Jackson. When will they be available for testimony ?
The Chairman. I w^ould like to leave that up to the Bureau, the
FBI, and let them decide when thev have finished with these two wit-
nesses, and then we will call them.
I may say that the Bureau has never been unreasonable in the past,
and I am sure they will not be in this case. We only took the sworn
testimony of one of the individuals this morning. That testimony will
be available as soon as it can be written up. We will see how soon we
can get that testimony typed up.
Mr. CoHN. I have a copy of it.
The Chairman. This will not be given to the press but will be given
to the members of the committee.
Your first witness, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. CoHN. Mrs. Moss is the first witness.
The Chairman. The first witness is Annie Lee Moss.
Will you take that seat over to your right, please ? Will you raise
your right hand ? In this matter now in hearing before the committee,
do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you, God?
Mrs. Moss. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ANNIE LEE MOSS (ACCOMPANIED BY HER
COUNSEL, GEORGE E. C. HAYES)
The Chairman. Let me ask counsel, yesterday we understood the
witness was not in such physical condition that she wanted to testify.
We will not ask her to testify today unless she feels that her health
is such that she can. I frankly thought, in view of the fact that she
was issuing public statements yesterday, that maybe her healtli Avas
good enough so that she could testify todav. If you feel that her
health is not such that she can testify, she wdl not be forced to testify.
Mr. Hayes. With respect to the public statements, Mr. Chairman,
so far as I have been given to understand, the only public statement
she made was because of the misrepresentation made to her that some-
one had come there from your committee and desired to have a ])icture
of her, and she made a statement to that individual that probably you
saw in the public press.
The Chairman. In other words, some newsman came there and said
that he represented the committee and asked for a picture ?
Mr. Hayes. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. That was completely improper on his part and if
we find out who it is he will be held in contempt of the committee,
no one can go around — and let us not have any pictures now and the
witness does not want her picture taken.
Senator Jackson. Do the pictures bother you?
Mrs. Moss. Yes.
The Chairman. AVe will lia\e no further })ictiues. I might say,
if you will help us get the name of the individual who came to you
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 333
yesterday and got the statement claiming he was representing this
committee, that individual will be held in contempt of the committee.
No one can do that.
Now, let me ask you this : If your health is not good and if you feel
this testimony toda}^ and the strain of it w^ill adversely affect your
health, you will not be forced to testify today. Let me ask counsel:
What does the doctor say?
Mr. Hates. Let me say this to this committee : We received a sum-
mons from the House of Representatives committee which summoned
her to appear before them on Saturday last. At that time, I presented
to the committee a certificate from her doctor indicating that in his
opinion he thought it might be adverse to her physical condition for
iier to come. The committee had a doctor to examine her, representing
the Government, and they agreed that it was probably not advisable
for her to appear on Saturday. They contacted me with respect to it
and indicated their desire that she be heard at least on Monday, even
though a holiday, and asked me if I would come and I told them I
would try to accommodate them by coming.
We went there and went through an ordeal of about 2 hours with
the lady under examination. AVlien we came on yesterday, her condi-
tion was such that I think it was apparent that the request that was
made was a legitimate one. At 11 o'clock last night, I got a call ask-
mo; me
The Chairman. May I interrupt you to say this for the benefit of
3'our client; we do have the sworn testimony of two witnesses who
know that she has been a member of the Communist Party for a long
time. There are other informants who will testify to the same. I
do not want to bring a woman here who is in ill health and have her
run the risk of being indicted for perjury. We have too many pend-
ing cases of contempt and perjury at this time, and we are not trying to
build that up.
If you feel and if the doctor has assured you that this woman's
health will be affected by testifying, she will not be forced to testify
this morning. I am just asking for your opinion and I will take your
word for it.
INIr. Hayes. JNIy word cannot address itself to what you have asked
me because you asked me whether or not the doctor has indicated to
me.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this : We have a rule in this com-
mittee that when an individual has been named as a member of the
Communist conspiracy that person can come forward under oath
immediately and admit or deny. You understand that. Now, in this
particular case, I do not think this witness herself is of any great
importance, but the thing that is important to us far beyond this wit-
]]ess is this : Who in the military, knowing that this lady was a Com-
munist promoted her from a waitress to a code clerk? The informa-
tion we have is that she has no special ability as a decoding clerk.
We know that she has been handling classified material despite the
statement issued last night by the military.
I am not interested in this woman as a person at all. I am in-
terested in those who kept her — no pictures of this lady, please, she
does not want her picture taken — I am interested in knowing who in
the military kept her on and promoted her from a waitress to a
decoding clerk.
1
334 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Now, if she testifies this moriiiii^ under oath, if she ])erjures her-
self, her case of necessity will be submitted to the grand jury. I do
not want her to do that if you feel her health is such that she should
not testify. So, all I am asking you is a simple question. You know
the condition of your client. Do you feel she should not testify?
Senator Jackson. Just before that, I certainly do not want the
I'ecord to stand that the testimony of this witness is not important.
I think the testimony of
The Chaieman. Just a minute. Senator. The testimony of this
witness is important, but the thing I tried to stress is the fact that
far more important than this individual who has been identified as
a member of the Communist Party, infinitely more important will
be the explanation of those who kept her on and promoted her. I do
not have any brief for any member of the Communist Party but I
can understand how this individual might join the party thinking
she was doing the right thing. But I am very much interested in
the Army officials and we notified the Army, you understand
Senator Jackson. I do say that I think her testimony
The Chairman. On January 4, about her background, and I want
to hear her testimony, but I do not want to hear her testimony if she
is ill. I will not have a person who is ill before this committee, a
person who is not in a position to use her best judgment. If there
is perjury, I will insist upon an indictment and I do not want to do
that in case someone is not feeling well. She does not look well to me.
Mr. Hates. I can see her just as you can and I know nothing be-
yond that except what I have indicated to you about what the doctors
have agreed upon.
The Chairman. Do they think she should not testify ?
Mr. Hayes. I have not been able to contact the doctors and I was
contacted last night at 11 o'clock and asked to bring the lady here.
I do want to say this, Mr. Chairman
The Chairman, I am asking you a simple question. Talk to your
client there and ask her whether or not she feels she can testify today,
and if she cannot, she will step down from the stand. If she feels
she can testify, then I will take her testimony under oath. Just talk
to her. Do you want to take her out of the room and talk to her?
Take your client out of the room and talk to her, and then come back
and tell us whether or not you think that she can testify.
Mr. Hayes. I will be glad to do that, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to
say, if you will allow me to, that the
The Chairman. Talk to her first and then say what you want to.
Senator Jackson. I do not think that they ought to bother her,
taking pictures.
The Chairman. Take her out of the room and talk to her.
(At this point, the witness was excused from the hearing room,
and her counsel returned to the witness stand.)
The Chairman. Counsel, do you feel that hor health is such that
she cannot testify ?
Mr. Hayes. I feel definitely that she is not in condition to testify.
I call your attention to the fact that either fortunately or unfortu-
nately the newspaper last night carried the statement tliat were she
to say that she was not a member of the Communist Party that the
matter was to be referred to the Department of Justice. Now, that
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 335
would be entirely inconsistent with what vshe has said to nie about the
situation all along.
The Chairman. Just a moment. All right, go ahead.
Mr. Hayes. I say that has put her in a position that nervously she
is definitely in a position now where I feel she cannot even do herself
justice even as far as thinking is concerned.
The Chairman. We do not want her to testify then. But do this,
if you will : You are not a typical type of Communist lawyer that
appears before this committee.
Mr. Hayes. I do not know what that means.
The Chairman. You appear to be an honest intelligent lawyer. 1
would like to urge you that you talk to this woman. Clearly, slie
has been a member of the party, and whether she has broken as of
today or not, I do not know\ When she regains her health, if she
wants to talk to the Bureau or talk to us in confidence, I would urge
that you suggest to her that she do that. There is no reason why she
cannot.
Mr. Hayes. I have conferred with her, Mr. Chairman, and I will
say to you as soon as she is physically able I shall be glad to get her
to make a statement either to you or to the committee or in open
court or elsewhere.
Senator Jackson. There is one thing on that question. The ques-
tion was: You are not a typical type of Communist lawyer that
appears before the committee. Are you a Connnunist ?
Mr. Hayes. No, sir, I certainly am not.
Senator Jackson. I do not like that question, and I think it assumes
that the witness is a Communist because he has a client here.
The Chairman. You go ahead. Senator Jackson, if you like, and
protect the Communist's attorneys who have appeared before this
committee. You have not been on the committee for some time, and
you absented yourself — let me finish — by your own choice and you
now object to my description of attorneys who have appeared here.
You have no way of knowing whether that description is correct
or not.
If you had been sitting with us over the past 4 months, watching
members of the Communist conspiracy violating their oath as lawyers
and misinforming and misadvising clients, then you would not make
the statement. 1 made the statement because I know something about
the background of this lawyer, and I have every reason to believe that
he is a good loyal American.
That is why I wanted to make it clear that he is not one of the
typical Communist attorneys who have come screaming in before this
committee, and. Senator Jackson, if you had been sitting with us
during the time you absented yourself, you would not make that
statement.
Senator Jackson. I think that your statement is uncalled for. I
made my position very clear. The inference of that question was
that this attorney was a Communist, and is it true that you are or
are not a Comnmnist?
Mr. Hayes. Mr. Senator, it is definitely untrue, and if I had felt
(he implication, I would have immediately resented the implication,
but I take it from what the chairman says that he was not indicating
336 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
that I am, because, certainly, I would certainly definitely want to go
on record as resenting the implication of that.
The Chairman. I think it was very clear and you and I both under-
stood that we made it clear that you were not a Communist, is that
right?
Mr. Hayes. I appreciate that, sir.
The Chairman. That is as far as I know.
Mr. Hayes. Well, your knowledge is entirely supportable, sir.
The Chairman. That is why I asked you to advise your client to
tell us the truth. If you were a member of the Connnunist Party
yourself, it would be a waste of my time advising you to tell your
client what to do.
Mr. Hayes. I have indicated that my client is ready and willing
to testify, and she just happens not to be able and as soon as she is
able, I will see to it that she does.
Senator McClellan. I believe I understand, and is this correct
that she did testify before the House Un-American Activities Com-
mittee on Monday of this week ?
Mr. Hayes. That is correct.
Senator McClellan. At which time she was thoroughly examined
and cross-examined by the members of that committee?
Mr. Hayes. That is entirely correct, sir.
Senator McClellan. For my information, would you mind telling
me whether she took refuge under the fifth amendment on any ques-
tions that were asked her ?
Mr. Hayes. She took refuge under no amendment for any question,
and she answered all questions.
Senator McClellan. She did appear on Monday and testify freely
and fully before another congressional commitee on this same subject?
Mr. Hayes. She appeared before another congressional committee
on the same subject and answered spontaneously and, I believe, sir,
truthfully.
Senator McClellan. Under those circumstances, I think it is quite
pro])er not to insist that she testify today, with the assurance of the
attorney that he will have her here when she is able.
The Chairman. That is very important that she return here at the
very earliest date. Her testimony, I understand, before the House
Committee was to the effect that she had been in close contact with a
top member of the Communist Party and purchased the Daily Worker
from her.
Mr. Hayes. That is not correct, sir.
The Chairman. I want it very clear now that the principal reason
why I am not insisting that she testify is that the evidence be as
complete and as convincing and with no question about it that she
has been a member of the Communist Party. If she lies and if she
perjures herself, I will ask to have her indicted. I do not want to
have a sick woman before the committee and have her perjure herself.
Let me ask this: How soon do you think she can return?
Mr. Hayes. I cannot answer that, sir. I am not a physician and
I do not know, sir, and I shall give you the assurance as soon as her
doctor indicates to me she can come, in liis opinion. The one thing
that disturbs me, Mr. Chairman
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 337
The Chairman. That is too indefinite. I want you to contact the
doctor this afternoon, and I want you to contact the committee and
tell the committee how soon the doctor says she can testify.
Mr. Hayes. I will be glad to do that.
The Chairman. This case is not going to be left hanging in the air.
Mr. Hayes. I will be glad to do that, sir.
The Chairman. In the meantime, I think that you are an honest
lawyer and I suggest that you advise her to come in here and tell
the truth.
Mr. Hayes. As an honest lawyer, I could advise her nothing other
than that, but it disturbs me when I come before a committee that
begins by telling me that "We have already condemned her and we
have all of the evidence and there is no need of your coming because
whatever happens we are going to send her to the Department of
Justice." It does not seem to me that is a proper approach.
The Chairman. One moment please. As a courtesy to you, and for
the protection of your client, we try to inform the attorney in each
case what the situation is. We have done that for you. Now, you
may step down.
Mr. Hayes. Yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. Did you have any further statements in con-
nection with your client?
Mr. Hayes. I simply wanted to say that it seems to me
The Chairman. You may step down.
Mr. Hayes. I can't do what both of you gentlemen want. One
asked me a question and one tells me to step down and I do not know
which to do.
The Chairman. I can see your problem. Just stay there and if
anybody wants to ask you a question, he can go ahead.
Senator McClellan. I wanted to make the observation that it is
a little unusual, maybe, that we take a lawyer's statement about the
physical condition of his client rather than to insist upon a doctor's
certificate. Now, we are doing that this morning and one reason I
am willing to do that is because of the fact that this witness has
appeared this week before another congressional committee and testi-
fied on the same subject matter. I understand that she did not take
refuge under the fifth amendment or refuse to answer any of the
interrogations.
Under those circumstances, I am willing to take your word for
her physical condition, and otherwise, personally, I would insist upon
a doctor's certificate.
Mr. Hayes. You understand my position. I simply see her in
the physical condition which you see her, and I would not want
The Chairman. May I say that I think that Senator McClellan
makes a very important point, and I do not think that we should
take the statement of any lawyer as final. Therefore, you will have
her get a doctor's certificate and have that presented this afternoon.
Unless the doctor certifies that she cannot testify, she will be back
here on Friday morning at 10:30.
We would like to have that certificate at any time this afternoon,
and I want to thank Senator McClellan for bringing up that point.
Senator McClellan. At this point, Mr. Chairman, I have to ask
to be excused from further attending this morning. The Judiciary
338 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Committee is meeting, and it is an important matter that is to be
taken up.
Mr. Hayes. Am I excused?
Senator McClellan. I wanted the record to show that I have to
absent myself.
The Chairman. May I thank you. I know that you have another
committee with an important vote on, and I appreciate your coming
over here for the time that you did this morning.
The Chairman. Miss Sally Peek?
Mr. FoRER. We prefer not to have pictures taken.
The Chairman. The witness is entitled not to have her pictures
taken.
Mr. FoRER. That applies to the moving-picture cameras.
The Chairman. The cameras will not take pictures while she is
in the room, and you cannot even take them when I am not looking.
Will you stand and raise your right hand. Miss Peek? In this
matter now in hearing before the committee do you solemnly swear
to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Miss Peek. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MISS SALLY FANNIE PEEK (ACCOMPANIED BY HEK
COUNSEL, JOSEPH FORER)
The Chairman. Your name is what ?
Miss Peek. My name is Miss Sally Fannie Peek.
The Chairman. Miss Peek, you are not being called this morning
because of any connection you have had with the Government. You
are being called because you have been named as a meniber of the
Communist Party in the same cell or same group as Annie Lee Moss.
You are called because the information indicates that you were the
individual who recruited her into the Communist Party.
You are here so that you can have an opportunity to either deny
that, or if it is true tell us it is true, or give us any other information
that you care to give us.
Let me ask you this question : No. 1, did you recruit the lady who
was just here on the stand and just left the room, Annie Lee Moss,
into the Communist Party ?
Miss Peek. Will you ask that question again, please?
The Chairman. Kead the question.
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
(The witness consulted with her counsel.)
Miss Peek. I refuse to answer that question because of my privilege
under the fifth amendment, not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist Party today ?
Miss Peek. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds
that I stated before.
The Chairman. You are not working for the Government?
Miss Peek. No.
The Chairman. You never worked for the Government, have you ?
Miss Peek. No.
The Chairman. Do you have any brother or sisters who are work-
ing for the Government ?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 339
Miss Peek. No.
The Chairman. Have you been active as a recruiting agent for the
Communist Party?
Miss Peek. Do you mind if he reads that, please ?
The Chairman. Read the question.
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
(The witness consulted with her counsel.)
Miss Peek. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds
that I before stated.
The Chairman. Senator Jackson.
Senator Jackson. Did you see the witness this morning that ap-
peared before the committee but did not testify, Mrs. Moss ? Did you
see her this morning ?
Miss Peek. The lady?
Senator Jackson. That appeared with her counsel here?
(The witness consulted with her counsel.)
Miss Peek. The lady that was sitting here ?
Senator Jackson. The lady that was sitting at the table where
you are now?
Miss Peek. Yes, I saw her.
Senator Jackson. Could you identify her?
Miss Peek. I refuse to answer that question
Senator Jackson. Do you know her ?
Miss Peek. For the same reason that I stated before.
Senator Jackson. That is all.
The Chairman. Senators Potter and Mundt, do you have any
questions ?
Senator Mundt. I have no questions.
The Chairman. That is all. You may step down.
You are released from your subpena and we will not want you any
further.
Mrs. Oram, please?
Is Mrs. Oram here ?
Mr. Forer. We would like not to have pictures again, please.
The Chairman. There will be no pictures.
Will you raise your right hand. In this matter now in hearing
before the committee do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Oram. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. CHARLOTTE ORAM (ACCOMPANIED BY HER
COUNSEL, JOSEPH EORER)
The Chairman. Your full name ?
Mrs. Oram. I don't hear very well, and there is something about this
public-address system.
The Chairman. Your full name is what ?
Mrs. Oram. My full name is Charlotte Oram.
The Chairman. Charlotte Oram, 0-r-a-m?
Mrs. Oram. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is that "Miss" or "Mrs."?
Mrs. Oram. "Mrs."
340 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Again let me say that you are not being called
because of any job you have with the Government. You are being
called because of testimony in regard to you in executive session.
Now, it has been testified that you had access to the records of the
Communist Party in Washington, specifically of the Northeast Club of
the Commuist Party. Is that correct or not ?
(The witness consulted with her counsel.)
Mrs. Oram. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my
privilege under the fifth amendment, not to be a witness against
iiiysoli.
The Chairman. Do those records show that Annie Lee Moss was a
dues-paying member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Oram. I never saw her or heard the name of Annie Lee Moss
until yesterday, Senator, to the best of my recollection.
The Chairman. You say you did not see her name in any records ?
Mrs. Oram. To the best of *my recollection, until yesterday, I had not
even heard of that name.
The Chairman. And until yesterday you say you never heard of
Annie Lee Moss ?
Mrs. Oram. That is right.
TESTIMONY OF MES. MAEY STALCUP MAEKWARD— Eecalled
The Chairman. Mrs. Markward, may I ask you, did this woman
have access to the records of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Markward. She did.
The Chairman. And one other question : Do you know positively
that those records contained the name of Annie Lee Moss?
Mrs. Markward. They did.
The Chairman. There is no reason why this woman should not have
seen the name Annie Lee Moss on the records ?
Mrs. Markw^ard. There is no reason why she should not have ; that
is right.
The Chairman. Now, how do you spell your last name?
Mrs. Oram. I am sorry, I don't hear you.
The Chairman. How do you spell your last name ?
Mrs. Oram. 0-r-a-m.
The Chairman. Do you still have any records of the Communist
iParty?
(The witness consulted with her counsel.)
Mrs. Oram. I refuse to answer that question.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to produce any records, any-
thing in writing which you have, everything to do with the Communist
Party ; and you will be ordered to produce that by 2 : 30 tomorrow
afternoon.
You understand that order?
Mrs. Oram. No; I don't.
The Chairman. Have your lawyer explain it to you.
That will include the membership lists of the Communist Party.
Do you understand that I have ordered you to produce — can't you
hear me?
Mrs. Oram. I think that I hear you, but it sounds rather strange.
The Chairman. Let me repeat it. You are ordered to produce any
records which you have concerning the Communist Party, including
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 341
the membership lists. The reason for that order is that it has been
testified to under oath that you have been in possession of those records
and that you do have a membership list. And so you are ordered to
produce that.
Now, let me ask you this question : Are you as of today a functionary
of the Communist Party ?
(The witness consulted with her counsel.)
Mrs. Oram. Senator, I was subpenaed before this committee to be
a witness against some other person, and I have given you my answer
concerning the person under investigation. And now it seems that
you are turning this into an investigation against me and asking me
to be a witness against myself. I don't think that you have any right
to do that, sir.
The Chairman. You are not subpenaed to be a witness against
anyone. You were subpenaed here to give us information in regard to
the membership of the Communist Party.
Mrs. Oram. I gave you what information I could give you about
the person under investigation.
The Chairman. Now, to decide whether or not you are telling us
the truth, I am asking you a few simple questions, and one is whether
or not you are a functionary of the Communist Party as of today.
Mrs. Oram. I consider that type of a question a question that is
making a person the object of the investigation, and I don't consider
that you have a right to ask such a question. I have given you my
answer about the question that you asked that is pertinent to the
investigation.
The Chairman. If you feel the answer will tend to incriminate
you, you will be allowed not to answer; and otherwise you will be
ordered to answer.
Mrs. Oram. I think that I have the right to exercise my privilege
under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. You are entitled to use the fifth amendment. Let
me ask you this : Is it true, to your knowledge, that members of the
Communist Party have been ordered to lie whenever necessary to
protect members of the Communist conspiracy '?
Mrs. Oram. I am going to refuse to answer all such questions under
my privilege of the fifth amendment regardless of how fantastic
the questions are. I think that you are just trying to intimidate
me, and I think that you have no right to do that sort of thing.
The Chairman. I am not trying to intimidate you, young lady.
You have been named as a top functionary in the conspiracy designed
to destroy this Nation. If that is not true, you can easily say so. Are
you a member of the conspiracy as of today ?
Mrs. Oram. I am not responsible for what other people say.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist conspiracy
as of today ?
Mrs. Oram. I refuse to answer all such questions on the basis
previously stated.
The Chairman. Now, you are as of today the city educational
director of the Communist Party, are you not ?
Mrs. Oram. I am not going to answer any of those questions, Sen-
ator. I have stated the basis on which I am refusing to answer those
questions.
342 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. You are entitled to refuse, if you feel the answer
will tend to incriminate you.
Keep in mind that an agent of the FBI, you are listening to me
are you — an agent of the FBI who has been in the Communist Party
for a number of years, who collected the dues, has given in detail
your background as an important functionary of the Communist
Party. If that is not true, you can merely say it is not true. If
it is true, of course, naturally, you will invoke the fifth amendment.
I am going to ask you one more question : Will you produce tomor-
row any membership list of the Communist Party which you have?
(The witness consulted with her counsel.)
Mrs. Oram. I don't have any such membership lists. Senator.
The Chairman. Do you have any records of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Oram. I have no such records, and I think this whole thing
has just been cooked up.
The Chairman. Mrs. Markward, there is no question she has access
to the records of the Communist Party ; is that correct ?
Mrs. Markward. That is correct.
The Chairman. Could I ask you if you have access to the records of
the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Oram. Is that addressed to me ?
The Chairman. Read the question.
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
Mrs. Oram. No ; I do not.
The Chairman. How about the past, have you had access in the
past?
Mrs. Oram. I refuse to answer that question. Senator, on the basis
that I previously stated.
The Chairman. Did you have access to the records of the Com-
munist Party a year ago ?
Mrs. Oram. I am just going to refuse to answer all of those ques-
tions on the basis previously stated.
The Chairman. You can refuse to answer any question if you feel
the answer might tend to incriminate you. You will have to invoke
the privilege as to each specific question.
Did you have access to the records of the Communist Party while
Mrs. Markward, the lady sitting behind you, was a member of the
Communist Party? And I should make it clear she was a member
under orders from the FBI. Do you understand the question ?
Mrs. Oram. No.
The Chairman. Will you read the question ?
( The reporter read from his notes as requested. )
Mrs. Oram. I refuse to answer that question on the basis previously
stated.
The Chairman. Will you turn around and look at Mrs. Markward ?
Did you know her as a member of your cell in the Communist Party?
Mrs. Oram. I refuse to answer that question on the basis previously
stated.
The Chairman. Mrs. Markward, have you seen this woman ; is there
any doubt in your mind that this is the individual you described
yesterday as having access to the records of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Markward. This is the same lady.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Are you employed now ?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 343
Mrs. Oram. No.
The Chairman. Do you have any brothers or sisters working for
the Government ?
Mrs. Oram. No.
The Chairman. Your husband does not work for the Government ?
Mrs. Oram. No.
The Chairman. Senator Jackson.
Senator Jackson. Do you know Mrs. Annie Lee Moss, did you say ?
Mrs. Oram. To the best of my knowledge, I have never seen that
woman before.
Senator Jackson. Did you see the lady with her counsel here earlier
who was identified as Annie Lee Moss ?
Mrs. Oram. I saw the woman as she walked in and as she walked out.
Senator Jackson. Do you recall ever having seen that lady ?
Mrs. Oram. I do not recall ever seeing her before.
The Chairman. As a member of the Communist Party, did you ever
receive orders to shield members of the Communist Party ? In other
words, did you ever receive orders that if you were called to testify
that you would not identify other members of the party?
(The witness consulted with her counsel.)
Mrs. OrxIM. I have never received orders of that kind from any
source.
The Chairman. Have you attended Communist leadership schools ?
(The witness consulted with her counsel.)
Mrs. Oram. I am not going to answer that kind of a question on the
basis of my privilege under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Did you discuss with any officer of the Communist
Party the fact that you were to testify before this committee ?
Mrs. Oram. No, I did not.
The Chairman. Did you discuss it with any member of the Com-
munist Party ?
(The witness consulted with her counsel.)
Mr. Oram. No.
The Chairman. Do you know any members of the Communist
Party?
Mrs, Oram. I refuse to answer that question on the basis previously
stated.
The Chairman. Mrs. Markward, may I ask you this question : Is it
correct that orders were given by the Communist Party, orders which
should be known to this woman, to shield other members of the party ?
Mrs. Markward. Very specific orders were given to me, sir, to not
identify any other member of the Communist Party before the com-
mittee or to tell any place where the funds came from or where any
records were kept.
The Chairman. In the normal course this woman having been an
officer of the Communist Party, she w'ould have gotten the same orders
that you received?
Mrs. Markward. I would think so.
The Chairman. Would you know what offices this woman held in
the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Markward. She was city membership director in 1943 and
until I took over that post and the Communist Political Association
was formed in 1944. There was a gradual transition between the
344 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
time I took over the membership records and her previous office. She
maintained the control of the white-collar club records from some
time before they were handed over to me. After that she had various
posts.
The Chairman. I wonder if you would step down.
And, Mrs. Markward, you come up here.
Senator Potter. I have one question before she leaves.
You stated that you didn't recognize Annie Lee Moss. Had you
ever seen her name before prior to this investigation ?
Mrs. Oram. No ; I did not.
Senator Potter. And the name didn't ring a bell with you or mean
anything until this investigation ?
Mrs. Oram. Not a thing.
The Chairman. Did you ever know of a Mary Stalcup ?
Mrs. Oram. I refuse to answer that question on the basis previously
stated.
Senator Jackson. I have just one question. I believe you have
testified that you did not know Annie Lee Moss. Do you recall that
name back in 1942 or 1943 or 1944?
Mrs. Oram. I don't recall that at all.
Senator Jagkson. And you saw her today in the hearing room?
Mrs. Oram. Yes.
Senator Jackson. Did her appearance here this morning refresh
your recollection in any way?
Mrs. Oram. It was a perfectly strange person.
Senator Mundt. Did you at any time ever see the membership
records of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Oram. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons pre-
viously stated.
Senator Mundt. I want to ask you a question. The chairman and
other members of the committee may take what course they want, but
when I ask a question I want to have a complete answer; and if you
want to take refuge in the fifth amendment, I want you to state the
full reason why you do it.
Mrs. Oram. Will you repeat it ?
Senator Mundt. As far as I am concerned, when I ask you a ques-
tion, if you are going to take refuge under the fifth amendment, you
have to do it legally and completely and totally.
Mrs. Oram. If you want me to repeat the entire provision, I will be
happy to.
Senator Mundt. Did you at any time ever see any of the member-
ship records of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Oram. I am refusing to answer that question because I have
the privilege under the fifth amendment not to be a witness against
myself.
Senator Mundt. That is all.
Senator Jackson. Did you know Annie L. Moss?
Mrs. Oram. No.
Senator Jackson. Can you give the committee the list of the mem-
bers of the Communist Party in the Northeast Club during the years
1943, 1944, and immediately prior to the dissolution of the Communist
Party, as such, and its transformation to the Commmiist Political
Association ?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 345
(The witness consulted with her counsel.)
Mrs. Okam. I have no such — —
Senator Jackson. You have no such what?
Mrs. Oram. I have no such list.
Senator Jackson. Could you give the list to the committee that I
requested, the list of the Communist Party members ?
Mrs. Oram. How can I give you a list I don't have ?
Senator Jackson. Did you ever have a list?
Mrs. Oram. I refuse to answer that question.
Senator Jackson. You do not now have the list ?
Mrs. Oram. I do not now have any such type of list.
Senator Jackson. Of members of the Communist Northeast Club
in Washington, D. C., during the years 1943, 1944, and up to the time
that the Communist Party was transformed to the Communist Politi-
cal Association. You do not have that list now ?
Mrs. Oram. No.
Senator Jackson. What did you do with the list ?
Mrs. Oram. I refuse to answer that question on the basis that I
previously stated.
Senator Jackson. Do you recall the names on the list back
Mrs. Oram. I refuse to answer that question on the same basis.
The Chairman. I think Senator Mundt has made a good point here.
I think if she wants to refuse, she should state the full grounds for
the refusal each time.
Senator Jackson. I agree she should state specifically the basis for
her refusal ; otherwise, the privileges do not apply.
Mrs. Oram. Do you want me to repeat that ?
Senator Jackson. Yes.
Mrs. Oram. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my
privilege under the fifth amendment not to be a witness against my-
self.
Senator Jackson. If you do not have the list now, do you recall
the names of the members of the Northeast Communist Club in Wash-
ington, D. C, during the years I have previously stated ?
Mr. Oram. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my
privilege
Senator Jackson. Do you recall the name of Anna L. Moss or Annie
Lee Moss during the period I previously referred to ?
Mrs. Oram. As I have previously stated, I do not recall that name
in any connection.
Senator Jackson. Do you recall that name in connection referring
now to a list?
Mrs. Oram. I do not recall that name having come to my attention
in any way until I appeared in your hearing room yesterday when it
was first mentioned to me. I have stated that a sufficient number of
times I think so it ought to be clear.
The Chairman. So the record will be absolutely clear, you saw the
lady who was on the stand, Annie Lee Moss. You saw her, did you?
Did you see Annie Lee Moss when she was here on the stand this
morning ?
Mrs. Oram. You say that was Annie Lee Moss on the stand this
morning ?
The Chairman. Did you see the lady on the stand?
346 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mrs. Oram. I saw the lady who come in this morning.
The Chaieman. Whom we call Annie Lee Moss. Did you see her ?
Mrs. Oram. I saw her as she came in. I didn't get a very good look
at her.
The Chairman. Can you state now under oath that you have never
seen her before ?
Mrs. Oram. To the best of my recollection I have never seen her
before.
The Chairman. You may temporarily step down. I would like
Mrs. Mark ward to take the stand.
Mrs. Markward, will you tell us what the records of the Commu-
nist Party showed in regard to Annie Lee Moss?
Mrs. Markward. The records of the Communist Party, the ones
which were kept continuously in the club, showed her name, address,
regularity of her dues payments, whether or not she subscribed to the
Daily Worker, and her attendance at meetings. Also periodically
once a year a registration of Communist Party members was taken,
when each member had to fill out a card stating their name, their
occupation, their sex, race, the union or mass organization they be-
longed to, and that sort of descriptive material. That was kept and
forwarded on to district and national headquarters.
There was also, I might say, a card in 1948 and 1944 in addition to
the club record, the city membership director had a card file on each
member of the Communist Party in Washington, D. C.
The Chairman. The other day I believe you testified that the rec-
ords showed that there were 280 — is that the correct figure — in the
Northeast Communist Club ?
Mrs. Markward. I believe I said there were approximately that
many in the Communist Political Association. I prefer not to be
pinned down so exactly on that figure, because it varied from day to
day. That was about the best average figure.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this : You did not, of course, per-
sonally know the two-hundred-odd members of that particular Com-
munist club?
Mrs. Markward. I did not know quite all of them, sir.
The Chairman. But as far as the woman who was just on the
stand, you did know her personally. There is no question in your
mind she was the individual you described ?
Mrs. Markward. I worked with her very closely over a number of
years.
The Chairman. Annie Lee Moss was here on the stand this morn-
ing. Let me ask you. Is she one of those you worked closely with so
you recognize her face, or do you merely recognize her from the
record ?
Mrs. Markward. She had her face rather well wrapped up. I
didn't really get a good look at her this morning. That being the
case, I cannot positively swear that I know her or personally knew
her. But from the general description that I have had, it is entirely
possible or probable that she is the person.
The Chairman. Let me say for your information we subpenaed this
morning one of the important officers of the Communist Party, an
individual who has been a Communist until at least last night. They
appeared this morning and said they had decided to break with the
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 347
party. They didn't want to appear in a public session because the
decision was just made in the last few hours. They are down now
with the FBI.
I might say they have confirmed your testimony in detail about
Annie Lee Moss. I thought you might be interested in knowing that.
They will be very valuable insofar as the Bureau is concerned.
Counsel, I think, has gone over with you just exactly what the rec-
ords have shown in regard to Annie Lee Moss. I am going to ask
Mr. Cohn to go into that in detail with you if he will.
Mr. CoHN. Mrs. Markward, I believe you told us that when you
were an officer of the Northeast Club of the Communist Party, you
had possession or access to its reports, is that right ?
Mrs. Markward. That is correct.
Mr. CoHN. And you told us yesterday that those records showed
that Annie Lee Moss was a card-carrying, dues-paying member of the
Party ?
]\Irs. Markward. That is correct.
Mr. CoHN. Do you recall now, and did you report to the FBI at the
time, anything else which the record showed about Annie Lee Moss,
anything about her general description, occupation, residence, and
things of that kind ?
Mrs. Markward. My recollection of what I reported at the time, and
her record showed, was that at that time she was approximately 38
years old, she was a cafeteria worker in the Pentagon cafeteria, that she
lived in the vicinity of Second and F Streets Northeast. I am think-
ing in this case of the last days certainly, and to the best of my recol-
lection one of her addresses was either 216 or 18 F Street, as well as the
Second Street address, and that she was an American Negro woman.
Mr. CoHN. In other words, Mr. Chairman, the facts given by Mrs.
Markward from her viewing of the records of the Communist Party,
and what she reported to the FBI, I believe, coincide exactly with
Annie Lee Moss insofar as address, occupation, race, and all other
salient features.
The Chairman. May I ask, counsel, has the Army ever denied that
this is the same Annie Lee Moss ?
Mr, CoHN. No, I think they confirmed that yesterday in their state-
ment by stating that they transferred her, that she had been under
loyalty investigation by them based on the same information.
The Chairman. In other words, just so this is absolutely clear, am I
correct in this, that no one, so far as you know, in any intelligence
agency or in the military has questioned the fact that the Annie Lee
Moss identified by Mrs. Markward is the identical Annie Lee Moss who
was promoted from a waitress to a code clerk in the Pentagon ?
Mr. Cohn. There is no question whatsoever, Mr. Chairman, and no
question has been raised by anybody concerned, or anybody else.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this, Mrs. Markward, and you may
not have any idea and I do not know. The thing that impresses me
somewhat is the fact that you have a lady here, Annie Lee Moss, who
apparently has no special qualifications insofar as educational back-
ground is concerned. She was working in the cafeteria and suddenly
we find her handling material in a communications room, encoded, de-
coded messages. Can you give us any idea as to why that sudden
promotion for this woman, or would you have any way of knowing
that?
348 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mrs. Markward. I have no way of knowing that.
The Chairman. It seems rather unusual, does it not ?
Mrs. Markward. Yes.
Senator Jackson. Mrs. Markward, a couple of questions because I
am a little confused here. As I understand it, in the northeast club
that you say Mrs. Annie Lee Moss was a member, there were only 30
members, is that correct ?
Mrs. Markward. I believe I have publicly identified approximately
30 members. In the spring of 1944 to the best of my recollection, the
number reached approximately 75.
Senator Jackson. But the Communist political association with
two hundred and thirty odd members was for the whole city ?
Mrs. Markward. That was for the whole city of Washington.
Those were the card-carrying members in Washington. That does not
include the members who were in the underground, the Government
ernployees and so forth.
Senator Jackson. Yes, but what I am trying to get straight in my
mind, Annie Lee Moss joined the Communist Party Northeast Club.
Mrs. Markward. That is right.
Senator Jackson. In 1943, was it, or about that time ?
Mrs. Markward. To the best of my recollection, that is right.
Senator Jackson. And then later all of the clubs in the city were
brought into the Communist political association when they dissolved
the Communist Party in — when was that, 1944 ?
Mrs. Markward. That is correct.
Senator Jackson. And at that time there were two hundred-odd
members in the entire city ?
Mrs. Markward. That is right.
The Chairman. Could I interrupt there for 1 minute ? I think it
should be clear when you are referring to two hundred-odd members,
you are referring to those who were permitted to carry cards.
Senator Jackson. She testified to that.
The Chairman. And anyone in Government would not be permitted
to carry a card.
Mrs. JNIarkward. That is correct.
The Chairman. So the 238 or whatever the figure is — pardon me
for using that — the two hundred-odd, let us say, are individuals in
addition to those who worked for the Government.
Mrs. Markward. I have to amend that just slightly. We did have
a club of members who worked in the Navy yard at that time. They
were employed in the Government and were a part of the regular
organization. They were registered just the same as other party mem-
bers were. Just for the record, I didn't want to say that there were no
Government employees in the party.
The Chairman. Why were those Navy employees not covered by
the general I'ule of the Communist Party that no Federal employee
be known as a member?
Mrs. Markward. I never had it too clearly explained to me, but
the best explanation I got was that they were machinists, workmen,
and that the underground party dealt mainly with the more intel-
lectual, the white-collar worker, the different type of people.
Senator Jackson. Now, you have stated in connection with the
records that you kept the attendance of the members of the Commu-
nist Party was also maintained.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 349
Mrs. Markward. That is right.
Senator Jackson. I wonder if you can supply for the committee
the full information on the attendance record of Mrs. Annie Lee Moss?
Mrs, Markward. Sir, it has been a long time, and my recollection
is just not clear enough for me to make a direct statement on that.
I have had no access to my records. Wlien I turned it over to the
FBI, that was it. I didn't have a chance to look at it again. Un-
doubtedly I told them if and when she attended a meeting, and I at-
tended a meeting, I said she was there. But I had no chance to have
access to any of that information to refresh my recollection.
Senator Jackson. It would be very helpful to the committee to
know if she attended one meeting or several.
Mrs. Markward. I am very interested in that myself, but as I say,
I just don't have the opportunity to see the record I made at the time.
I did not keep my personal record. My memory is not sufficient to
make a definite statement one way or another.
The Chairman. However, you did report to the FBI almost daily
at this point?
Mrs. Markward, I did.
The Chairman. So, Senator, that information, I assume, has been
made available to the military by the FBI.
Senator Jackson. I think it would be helpful to have it. I do not
see there is anything confidential since we have gone into the point
that she is alleged to be a member of this northeast club. I think it
becomes quite important in connection with future questioning to
know whether she attended meetings, and how many she attended,
and how long she paid dues.
The Chairman. May I say we will be glad to ask for that record.
As the Senator knows, I have had some difficulty in the past in get-
ting certain records.
Mr. CoHN. Mrs. Markward, can you help Senator Jackson on the
question of payment of dues ? Do you have any recollection on that ?
Mrs. Markward. No, sir.
Mr. CoHN. You do not recall over what period of time dues were
paid?
Mrs. Markward. No; I do not. But I do know it was more than
one time. It was over a considerable period of time, but I can't give
a definite statement.
Mr. CoHN. She did pay dues over a considerable period of time;
is that right?
Mrs. Markward. That is right.
Senator Mundt. In the records that were kept by the Communist
Party, was a separate list kept for those who subscribed to the Daily
Worker or did membership in the Communist Party automatically
bring the Daily Worker?
Mrs. Markward. It did not. When I joined the party, they had
a club plan where you could pay 50 cents a month to the club treas-
urer, and the Daily Worker would come to you. But they did awav
with that, and it was delivered by individual subscription. The club
was always eager to know whether the individuals were reading the
Daily Worker, and were familiar with its policies.
Senator Mundt. A separate treasury was kept in the club for the
subscription to the Daily Worker ?
350 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mrs. Markward. That is right, and the Daily Worker and the Com-
munist Party were in the same office in downtown Washington, and
there they kept a list of the Worker subscribers.
Senator Mundt. Did they have any subscribers on the Daily Worker
lists who were not members of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Markward. Oh, yes.
Senator Mundt. And vice versa?
Mrs. Markward. Of course, you have all the intelligence agencies
and many Senate committees, and people like that are interested in
reading the Daily Worker to find out what they are saying. In
Washington that helped to swell the circulation figures considerably.
Senator Mundt. Do you recall whether Annie Lee Moss was a
subscriber to the Daily Worker in addition to being a member of the
Communist Party?
Mrs. Markward. I can't recall specifically.
The Chairman. Let me ask, Mr. Cohn, has Annie Lee Moss admitted
subscribing to the Daily Worker ?
Mr. CoHN. I believe that will be covered in her testimony, Mr.
Chairman. She has admitted to receiving the Daily Worker and
subscribing to it from Eobert Hall, who was one of the top leaders
in the Communist Party in the District of Columbia. But that is gone
into in detail in her testimony.
The Chairman. May I say, and I want to make it very clear, that
I think subscription to the Daily Worker does not mean you are a
member of the Communist Party. It so happens that I look at it
very regularly and the louder they scream, the more I am sure we
are hurting the Communist Party. So I am rather curious to read
it myself.
Mr. CoHN. Who was Robert Hall ? Do you know him ?
Mrs. Markward. Robert Hall was the Daily Worker editor in
Washington.
Mr. CoHN. In Washington ?
Mrs. Markward. That is right.
Mr. CoHN. He was editor of the Daily Worker in Washington ?
Mrs. Markward. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Was he one of the top functionaries of the party here
as such ?
Mrs. Markward. He was a member of the District committee. He
also sort of was the — or appeared to be a sort of watchman for the
national committee. He sat on the control board when there was a
question of discipline in the party and generally helped with the in-
vestigation and did that type of overall
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mrs. Markward, our records show that Annie Lee
Moss for a period of time resided with a woman named Hattie
Griffin, at 639 Second Street NE. Did you know Hattie Griffin?
Mrs. Markward. I did.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know her as a Communist Party member ?
Mrs. Markward. She was.
Mr, Cohn. The record showed Mrs. Moss resided with her at 639
Sixth Street NE., for a period of time. Does that address mean any-
thing to you?
Mrs. Markward. That was the address where I knew Hattie Griffin
and we did hold Communist Party meetings in her home.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 351
Mr. CoHN. At that very place?
Mrs, Markward. That is right.
The Chairman. One other question. I realize you do not know
every individual who belongs to the Communist Party who is in the
city of Washington. Did you ever by any chance know Andrew
Older?
Mrs. Markward. From the records, also, sir, he was identified to
me as a member of the Robert Hall Club of the Communist Party in
Washington. In other words, it was a club composed mainly of
newspapermen. He and his wife both.
The Chairman. Do you know what his assignment was in the
party ?
Mrs. Markward. No, I don't.
The Chairman. I wonder if you would do this : I think this should
be gone into in executive session, but I wonder if you would try and
recollect and give us the names of all the members of that particular
branch of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Markward. I will.
The Chairman. Could you do that ?
Mrs. Markward. Yes.
The Chairman. That particular club was composed of what — just
newsmen ?
Mrs. Markward. Essentially it was. There were 1 or 2 wives in the
club which did not exactly fit that description. But 96 percent of them
were newsmen.
The ChxVirman. If you would do that, I would appreciate it very
much. We have received lists from various other witnesses, and we
would like to keep a cross check. So, will you give us that list ?
Mrs. Markward. I would be glad to.
The Chairman. Mrs. Markward, that will be all for the time being.
Mr. CoHN. Did you know Hattie Griffin's husband ?
Mrs. Markward. I did.
Mr. CoHN. Our information is that one of them is dead, Mr. or Mrs.
Griffin. Do you know what that is?
Mrs. Markward. I heard the other day that Hattie Griffin is dead.
I don't know that of my direct knowledge.
Mr. CoHN. Is her husband still alive ?
Mrs. Markward. I don't know.
Mr. CoHN. Was he a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Markward. He was.
Mr. CoHN. Was he present at any of the meetings at this address at
which Mrs. Griffin and Annie Lee Moss resided ?
Mrs. Markward. I know he was present when Mrs. Griffin was there.
Again I say I could not definitely say Mrs. Moss was there.
The Chairman. I think Senator Mundt has made a good suggestion.
I think either Mr. or Mrs. Griffin should be subpenaed. Let me ask you
this one other question. Mrs. Oram was on the stand and said she did
not know Annie Lee Moss. As you heard, she would not give us any
information with regard to the other Communists known to her. Is it
correct to assume that she has received orders from the Communist
Party not to expose any individuals who are members of the Party ?
Mrs. Markward. That is
The Chairman. Is that a standing order of the party ?
352 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mrs. Markward. That is a standing order of the party, that if you
do, you are no longer a member of the party. You are automatically
expelled in support of their rules not to divulge the secrets of the party.
The membership list is one of their most precious possessions, not just
a physical list, but a list which is
The Chairman. There is one other question, Mrs. Oram. Mrs.
Oram, I am not sure whether you will answer this question, or refuse to
answer it if it is asked. Are you a member of the Communist Party
today ?
Mrs. Oram. I would refuse to answer that question on the basis of
my privilege under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. That will be all, Mrs. Markward, I want to thank
you very, very much for being of considerable help to the committee.
Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, I want to tender one more thing in the
record. It is a letter to the Army from the Civil Service Commis-
sion, indicating that at the time of Mrs. Moss' appointment the Army
stated to the Civil Service Commission the position which she was to
hold was to be a sensitive position and that she was raised. I would
like to further indicate that our records show Mrs. Moss was working
not only with coded messages, but with coded messages that had
been translated, and were in what is known as "in clear" rather than
in code. She was working with both kinds, both transmitting and re-
ceiving, and had a clearance to handle secret messages.
Mr. Chairman. Let me ask you this, Mr. Cohn: Since the com-
mittee has ordered this woman to appear, I understand she has been
transferred to different work, I believe as of February 9 or February
5. I do not recall which. Do you know what work she is doing now,
or have we been informed ?
Mr. CoHN. I believe in the last few days or week or so she has been
in the supply room of the Signal Corps and has been transferred from
the sensitive position.
The Chairman. In other words, as of today she is not handling sen-
sitive work or any encoded or decoded matter ?
Mr. Cohn. I believe the Army statement is that she has not been
since the 5th of this month.
The Chairman. We will recess until 10 : 30 tomorrow morning, at
which time Mr. Stevens will appear.
(Thereupon at 12 noon, a recess was taken until Thursday, Febru-
ary 25, 1954, at 10 : 30 a. m.)
APPENDIX
Exhibit No. 19
SURVEY
3 March 1950
Page
Army Command and Administrative Communications Agency 5
Telegraphic-typewriter Operator (Semi-Automatic) Class Act GS-385 4
/S/ J. H. DONAGHY 4/6/50
Position No. s-108 allocated by OCSigO 9/3/49
CSC Standard for Telegraphic-Typewriter Operating Series, August 1943 :
JOB CONTROLS
1. Verbal instructions are received from a Higher grade employee on problems
encountered. Work is checked for conformance with procedures and for
accuracy.
2. Written guides consist of flexoline records containing routine information as
well as Branch, Station, and Unit orders and Memoranda, Operational Instruc-
tions, etc., covering in-station procedures.
major duties
1. Receiving messages over radio or wire circuits from stations all over the
WORLD : Examines messages received in tape form in code and clear text from Re-
ceiving Banks, to determine coherence thereof, whether numbers are in correct
sequence, correctness of time and date group, precedence, and whether complete,
and to determine from procedure headings how the message should be disposed
of, i. e., proper routing according to transmitting channel and call signs on the
messages, precedence, whether it is a multiple address message requiring routing
to Manual Teletype Unit for duplicate tapes, etc. ; when necessary, logs messages
according to number, precedence, identification call and number, directional call,
group count, date and time of message. Messages received in code must be more
carefully scrutinized inasmuch as it is more difiicult to detect omissions or errors
in coded letter or number groups. Processes high procedence messages immedi-
ately by handcarrying to overseas desk for quick routing. If messages are gar-
bled, incomplete, or if numbers are not in correct sequence, refers to supervisor for
clarification or contact with transmitting station to obtain reruns. When strag-
glers are received (messages received out of sequence between other messages),
refers to supervisor or sends message to transmitting station notifying them of
straggler and requesting explanation. Recognizes misroutes and missent mes-
sages, and refers to supervisor for disposal. Reports faulty equipment operation
to supervisor.
2. Final disposition op messages : As workload requires, ascertain and re-
cords final disposition on messages addressed to this station and originating
overseas or by State Department, Army Security Agency, Central Intelligence
Agency, General Staff, etc., to determine that final disposition has been completed
by the communication Center on such messages. This requires contact with vari-
ous Groups of Manual Teletype Unit (where messages are routed for determin-
ing and effecting disposition action) to ascertain nature of disposition and dispo-
sition number, i. e., whether messages were forwarded for local delivery to various
Government Agencies in Washington, refiled commercially, routed to Crypto Cen-
ter or Staff Communication Branch (General Staff). If necessary, performs re-
search through the various file of Manual Teletype Unit to locate disposition ac-
tions, including commercial circuit files, misrouted files, staff Communication
Branch files, etc.
353
354 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
3. Channel checking: As assigned by supervisor, makes channel cliecks on
circuits whicli involves contacting and informing distant stations at periodic
intervals of number of messages sent and received since previous channel check,
and requesting verification of figures. Upon receipt of acknowledgment, makes
proper notation on message sheets. If no reply is received or if number of
messages disagree, notifies supervisor who makes further investigation to deter-
mine reason therefor. Acknowledges channel checks made by other stations
by answering queries as to number of messages received and sent to those
stations.
4. Transmitting messages o\'ek radio or wire circuits to stations all over
THE world : Transmits messages by removing tapes from washboard, ascer-
taining correctness of routing indicators, and placing tapes in proper trans-
mitting positions ; watches tapes to insure that they do not become tangled,
since any stoppages would result in garbled messages. If tapes do get tangled,
stops transmitter, and refers to supervisor. Logs channel numbers under whicl
messages were sent out.
Performs other incidental duties as assigned.
Note : Performance of the foregoing duties requires a knowledge and applica
tion of Semi-Automatic message routing, receiving and transmitting procedures.
e. g. order of transmission of tape messages ; operation on Non-automatic Type
transmitters (Tab type) ; tape markings (indications of tape handling) ; incom-
ing message reception (receiving Domestic Bank positions) ; message reception
(overseas Receiving Bank positions) ; recognition, recording, and disposition of
encrypted messages destined to or received from the Crypto Center ; recognition,
recording, and disposition of special-type originating and refile messages ; etc.
This position also required the application of codes for designating channels
(A-Able, B-Baker, C-Charlie, D-Dog, etc.) ; sending and receiving on a circuit
on which numerous stations are located and circuit interruptions are frequent,
etc.
INDEX
Page
Administrative Communications Agency 353
American Government 313, 316, 318, 319, 320, 324, 333, 338, 340, 343, 348, 353
American Negro 326, 347
Army (Chief Signal Oliicer) 323, 328
Army (Secretary) 309, 322, 323, 327
Army (United States) 309, 313-318, 321-324, 326-329, 334, 347, 352, 353
Army Command 353
Army Security Agency 323, 353
Berry, Mr 322
Cafeteria worker (Pentagon) 315, 318, 822, 326, 347
Cafeteria workers club (Wasliington, D. C.) 326, 346
Cafeteria works union (Washington, D. C.) 326
Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) 316,323,353
Channel checks 354
Chief Signal Officer (Army) 323, 328
Chief of Staff 315
CIA (Central Intelligence Agency) 316, 323, 353
City committee (Communist Party, Washington, D. C.) 310
Civil Service Commission 309, 313, 316-318, 323, 324, 326-329, 352, 353
Civil Service Commission report 313
Civil Service Loyalty Board 324, 326, 327
Code room (Pentagon) 315, 316
Communist club (Washington, D. C.) 326, 346
Communist conspiracy 313, 325, 331, 333, 335, 341
Communist functionaries (District of Columbia) 331
Communist lawyer 335
Communist Northeast Club (Washington, D. C.) 310,
314, 318, 320, 331, 340, 344, 345, 347, 348
Communist Party 310-328, 331, 333, 334, 335, 336, 338-351
Communist Party (convention, 1948) 311
Communist Party (District of Columbia) 310,311,312,
314, 318, 319, 320, 322, 323, 326, 331, 340, 345, 346, 347, 348
Communist Party (District committee) 350
Communist Party (District committee No. 4) 310,311
Communist Party (leadership schools) 343
Communist Party (National Training School, New York) 326
Communist Party (Northeast Club, Washington, D. C.) 310,
314, 318, 320, 331, 340, 344, 345, 347, 348
Communist Party (Political Association) 310,
312, 318, 319, 322, 323, 326, 344, 345, 346, 348
Communist Party (Robert Hall Club) 351
Communist Party (Washington, D. C.) 310-312,
314, 318-320, 322, 323, 326, 331, 340, 345, 346, 347, 348
Communist Political Association 310, 312, 318, 319, 322, 323, 326, 343-346, 348
Communist Political Association (Maryland) 310
Communist Political Association (treasurer, Washington, D. O.) 312
Communist Political Association (Washington, D. C.) 310,
312, 318, 319, 322, 323, 326
Communist Political Club Association 319
Communists (Army) 322
Convention of the Communist Party (1948) 311
Crypto Center 353, 354
CSC Standard for Telegraphic-Typewriter Operating Series, August 1943- 353
Daily Worker 326, 336, 349, 350
Department of the Army 309, 313-318, 321-324, 326-329, 334, 347, 352, 353
11 INDEX
Page
Department of Justice 313, 317, 328, 334, 337
Department of State 323, 353
District of Columbia 310-312,
315, 318, 319, 323, 326, 331, 345, 346, 348, 350, 353
District committee (Communist Party) 350
District committee No. 4 (Communist Party) 310,311
Domestic banlc positions 354
Donaghy, J. H 353
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 309-314,
316, 317, 320, 321, 323-329, 331, 332, 335, 342, 347, 349
Federal Bureau of Investigation (undercover agents) 317
Federal Government 313, 316, 318, 319, 320, 324, 333, 338, 340, 343, 348, 353
Flexoline records 353
Forer, Joseph 338, 339
GAO (General Accounting Office) 322,323,328
General Accounting Office (GAO) 322,323,328
General Staff 323, 353
Government agencies 313, 327, 353
Government of the United States. 313, 316, 318, 319, 320, 324, 333, 338, 343, 348, 353
Griffin, Mr 351
Griffin, Hattie 325, 350, 351
Griffith, Hattie 325
Hall, Robert 350, 351
Hayes, George E. C 332-338
Hoover, J. Edgar 327, 328
House of Representatives committee 333
House Un-American Activities Committee 326, 327, 329, 333, 336
Judiciary Committee (Senate) 337
Justice Department 313, 317, 328, 334, 337
Leadership schools (Communist Party) 343
Loyalty Board 324, 326, 327, 328, 329
Loyalty Review Board 328
Manual Teletype Unit 353
Markward, Mrs. Mary Stalcup :
Testimony of 209-329, 340, 342, 343, 344, 346, .347, 348, 349, 350, 351, 352
Maryland Communist Political Association 310
Moss, Annie Lee 314-329,
331, 339, 340, 343, 344, 345, 346, 347, 348, 349, 350, 351, 352
Testimony of 332-338
National Training School (Communist Party, New Yorli) 326
Navy employees 348
Navy Yard (Washington, D. C.) 348
New Yorlv 326, 336, 349, 350
New York Daily Worker 326, 336, 349, 350
Northeast Club (Communist Party, Washington, D. C.) 310,
314, 318, 320, 331, 340, 344, 345, 347, 348
Older, Andrew 351
Oram, Mrs. Charlotte 351
Testimony of 339-346, 352
Overseas Receiving Bank positions 354
Peak, Sallie. (See Sallie Fannie Peek.)
Peek, Sallie Fannie 325, 326
Testimony of 338-339
Pentagon 315, 316, 327, 347
Political Club Association (Communist) 319
President's Loyalty Board 326
Receiving banks 353
Report (Civil Service Commission) 313
Robert Hall Club (Communist Party) 351
Secretary of the Army 309. 322, 323, 327
Security Agency (Army) 323,353
Senate Judiciary Committee 337
Signal Corps (United States Army) 309, 315, 318, 352
Staff Communications Branch (General Staff) 353
Stalcup, Mary (see also Mrs. Mary Stalcup Markward) 344
INDEX m
Page
State Department - 323, 353
Stevens, Bob (Secretary of the Army) 322
Stevens, Secretary 309, 322, 323, 327
Telegraphic-Typewriter Operating Series, August 1943 (CSC Standard) 353
Telegraphic-typewriter operator (Army Command) 353
Treasurer (Communist Political Association, Washington, D. C.) 312
Un-American Activities Committee (House) 326, 327, 329, 333, 336
Undercover agent (FBI) 309
United States Army (Secretary) 309, 322, 323, 327
United States Army Security Agency 323, 353
United States Civil Service Commission 309,
313, 316-318, 323, 324, 326-329, 352, 353
United States Department of the Army 309,
313-318, 321-324, 326-329, 334, 347, 352, 353
United States D-epartment of Justice 313, 317, 328, 334, 337
United States Department of State 323, 353
United States Government— 313, 316, 318, 819, 820, 324, 388, 338, 340, 343, 348, 353
United States House of Representatives committee 333
United States Navy employees 348
United States Signal Corps 309, 315, 318, 352
Velde committee (House Un-American) 326, 327, 329, 333, 336
Washington, D. C__ 310-312, 314, 315, 318, 319, 323, 326, 831, 345, 346, 348, 350, 353
Washington, Navy Yard 348
o
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS— SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
HEARINGS
BEFORE TUB
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
PURSUANT TO
S. Res. 189
PART 9
MARCH 1 AND 5, 1954
i'rinted for the use of the Committee on Government Operations
UNITED STATES
OOVEKNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
■16558 WASHINGTON : 1954
Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents
JUN 1 6 1954
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idalio HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
Richard J. O'Melia, Oeneral Counsel
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk
Pejrmanent Subcommittee on Investigations
JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
ROY M. COHN, Chief Counsel
Feancis p. Carr, Executive Director
Robert F. Kennedy, Chief Counsel for the Minority
n
CONTENTS
Fase
ndes I
testimony of —
Gragis, Peter A 375, 407
Lintield, David LaPorte 355
McGee, Frank Mason 382
Rubinstein, Sidney 369
m
AEMY SIGNAL COEPS-SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
(On March 1, 1954, Pvt. David LaPorte Linfield and Mr. Sidney
Kubinstein testified in executive session during hearings held by the
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations on Army Signal
Corps — Subversion and Espionage. This testimony was made public
on March 2, 1954, by members of the subcommittee and follows
below.)
MONDAY, MABCH 1, 1954
United States Senate,
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the
Committee on Government Operations,
Washington^ D, G.
executive session — confidential
The subcommittee met (pursuant to S. Res. 189, agreed to February
2, 1954) at 10 : 30 a. in., room 357, Senate Office Building, Senator
Joseph R. McCarthy, presiding.
Present : Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin ;
Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota ; Senator Charles
E. Potter, Republican, Michigan ; Senator John L. McClellan, Demo-
crat, Arkansas.
Present also: Francis P. Carr, executive director; Roy M. Cohn,
chief counsel; Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel for the minority;
Daniel G. Buckley, assistant counsel ; Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk.
Present also : Mr. John G. Adams, counsel, Department of Defense.
Mr. Adams. I would like to say I will never be here other than as
representative of the Secretary and the Army, and if an individual
witness is defending actions of the Army, I might sit with him.
TESTIMONY OF PVT. DAVID LaPORTE LINFIELD, ACCOMPANIED
BY MORTON FRIEDMAN, ATTORNEY AT LAW
The Chairman. In the matter now in hearing do you solemnly
SM ear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
wliole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
1 rivate Linfield. I do.
The Chairman. Will you state your full name?
Private Linfield. David Linfield. Senator, I would like to read a
statement. I object to the jurisdiction of the committee
Tlie Chairman. First, may I say the last time you were before this
coiDinittee you were informed the rules of committee require that you
must submit any statement 24 hours in advance. We will hear your
statement this morning. However, in the future if you appear here
355
356 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS— SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
again, unless you submit any statement 24 hours in advance it will not
be received.
Mr. Friedman. He was not so informed the last time.
The Chairman. Could we have counsel's name and address for the
record.
Mr. Friedman. Morton Friedman, 401 Broadway, New York City.
Private Linfield. I object to the jurisdiction of the committee on
these ^rounds : That the committee has no jurisdiction over the subject
matter of the inquiry, and that there is no proper legislative purpose
to this inquiry.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Mr. CoHN. Mr. Linfield, are you in the Army?
Private Linfield. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. You are a private?
Private Linfield. Yes, sir.
Mr, CoHN. When were you inducted?
Private Linfield. In April 1953.
Mr. CoHN. And are you a member of the Communist Party?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. CoHN. Are you engaged in espionage ?
Private Linfield. No.
Mr. CoHN. Now, where are you stationed at the present time?
Private Linfield. Eight now I am in Fort Myer, but that is only
on temporary duty.
Mr. CoHN. For how long a period of time have you been at tort
Myer?
"Private Linfield. I think I came there last Saturday.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you before that?
Private Linfield. Fort Dix.
Mr. CoHN. Now, while at Fort Dix, did you attend Communist
Party meetings? ,
Private Linfield. I decline to answer that on the basis of the faitb
amendment.
Mr. CoHN. Did you attempt to recruit other military personnel w
the Communist Party?
Private Linfield. I decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. CoHN. Have you attended Communist Party meetings witlur
the last week? . .
Private Linfield. I decline to answer that on the basis of the nttli
amendment. ,
Mr. CoiiN. Have you attempted to recruit other military personneJ
in the last week?
Private Linfield. That is really an internal matter for the Army
to consider, and I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
The Chairman. You say it is an internal matter for the Army, I'l
that your answer? , .P
Private Linfield. I said two things, Senator. That is an internaSfe
matter for the Army to consider and I decline to answer on the basi|
of the fifth amendment. , P
The Chairman. Is there anyone in the military you will give thafli
information to ? That is, whether or not you attempted to recruit mili If
tary personnel for the Communist Party ? '*
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 357
Private Linfield. I don't understand the question, Senator.
The Chairman. You said it was an internal subject for the Army
when we asked you whether or not you attempted to recruit other sol-
diers. Is there anyone in the Army — any private, general, or major
to whom you will give the information disclosing your activities in
the Communist Party ?
Private Linfield. One moment while I think about this Senator.
Senator, it is not for me to know who the proper authority is who
may properly ask me that question and I claim the fifth amendment
on that question.
The Chairman. Have you ever given anyone in the Army this par-
ticular information? Is there anyone you can think of today you
have given the information to? It is rather important information
to know who in the military belongs to the Communist apparatus.
The question is, will you give the information to the Army? You
have stated you will not give it to this committee.
Private Linfield. I believe that is the same question that you just
asked me, Senator. I don't see the dili'erence.
The Chairman. What is your answer to it? I will rephrase it.
Is there anyone in the military whom you are willing to give wdiat-
ever information you have about the Communist conspiracy ?
Private Linfield. Well, it is up to the military to ask me the ques-
tions they desire to ask, and I decline to answer your question on the
basis of the fifth amendment.
Senator Potter. Will you give it to G-2 ?
Private Linfield. As I say that would be — the question refers to an
internal Army matter and the specific question I decline to answer on
the basis of the fifth amendment.
Senator Potter. We have jurisdiction in this field. You are de-
clining to answer us on that question but you are leaving doubt as to
whether you would give that information to the Army.
Now, we are asking you : Will you give information you have about
the Communist conspiracy to G-2 of the Army ? That is a question
that you can answer "Yes' or "No" or decline to answer.
(Off-record discussion.)
Private Linfield. Could you please repeat the last question?
Senator Potter. The question is: You stated you won't give this
committee — you are using the fifth amendment as a reason for not giv-
ing information to this committee as to whether you recruited mili-
tary personnel in the Communist Party, but you inferred by your
answer you might give it to the Army, You inferred you might give
it to the military. My question to you is : Will you give that to the
military, G-2? That is the branch of the military service which has
authority to inquire into this field. My question is: Will you give
this information to the military ?
Private Linfield. I haven't said that I have such information and
I decline to answer your question on the basis of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Has anyone in the military asked you any ques-
tions about alleged Communist activities on your part?
Private Linfield. That is an internal Army matter.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question. The ques-
tion was merely whether some of the Army has asked you
Private Linfield. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
358 ARRIY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Let the record show the Chair ordered the witness
to answer the question and he still declined,
Mr. CoHN. Before you entered the Army, Private Linfield, did you
ever work for the Federal Telecommunications Laboratories?
Private Linfield. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. Did you ever do any Government work ?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. CoHN. You had a secret clearance?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. I think the record discloses that he had a secret
clearance at the Federal Telecommunications Laboratories from the
Army Signal Corps. The secret clearance was effective in June of
1952 and I don't know how long thereafter.
Is it your opinion that he can rightfully invoke the fifth amendment
on this question, Counsel?
Mr. CoHN. I don't think he can. I think that is a matter of pubUc i
record.
Senator McClellan. The Federal Telecommunications Labora-'
tories does Government work ?
The Chairman. The Federal Telecommunications Laboratories does
classified work for the Government.
Senator McClellan. Then that would be clearance for handling
military secrets ?
The Chairman. That is right.
You are ordered to answer the question.
Private Linfield. I continue to decline, Senator.
The Chairman. Did you work on Army Signal Corps work when
at Federal Telecommunications Laboratories ?
Private Linfield. That is practically the same question and I de-
cline on the basis of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer.
Private Linfield. I decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. So the other members of the committee will know
what the chairman has in mind, I take the position when the witness
says he has never committed espionage he has waived any privilege
as far as handling of secret material, and also, it is a matter of public
record that he handled it. After he said he has not committed espio-
nage, then he cannot invoke the fifth amendment as to any area of
espionage — just so you will know why I am ordering him to answer.
Mr. CoHN. When at Federal Telecommunication Laboratories, were
you in a Communist cell with Harry Hyman ? _
Private Linfield. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment. , . ,
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Harry Hyman was engaged in espionage i
Private Linfield. I have no knowledge of espionage agents or
activities.
Mr. Cohn. Did you discuss the work you were doing at the Fed-
eral Telecommunications Laboratories with Harry Hyman?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer on the basis of the fiftb
amendment. \
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 359
Private Linfield. I decline to answer the question on the basis of
the fifth amendment.
The Chaibman. You say you never knew or had reason to believe
Harry Hyman was engaged in espionage ?
Private Linfield. I said I have no knowledge of espionage agents
or their activities.
The Chairman. Then you are ordered to answ^er the question.
Private Linfield. Would you please repeat the question, Senator.
The Chairman. Did you ever know or have any reason to believe
that Hyman was an espionage agent ?
Private Linfield. I never had any reason to believe that anybody
was ever an espionage agent, and I decline to answer your question
on the basis of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer it.
Private Linfield. I decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. CoHN. Did you discuss your secret work with Harry Hyman ?
Private Linfield. I decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question.
Private Linfield. I decline, Senator.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever discuss secret work at meetings of the
Communist Party ?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer.
Private Linfield. I decline, Senator.
The Chairjvian. A little louder, please.
Private Linfield. I decline, Senator.
The Chahuman. Do you know anyone in the military now who is
engaged in recruiting other military personnel into the Communist
Party ?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth,
amendment.
The Chairman. Do you believe in the principles of the Communist
Party ?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Did you know that the Communist Party is dedi-
cated to the destruction of this Nation by force and violence?
Private Linfield. I don't think, Senator, you should ask me ques-
tions on beliefs or opinions and I decline to answer the question on the
basis of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. I am not talking about beliefs or opinions. I am
asking you as a fact whether it is known to you that the Communist
Party is dedicated to the destruction of this Nation by force and
violence ?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, let me inquire : You are a private
in the United States Army ?
Private Linfield. That is correct.
Senator Mundt. Haven't you ever been given any literature or in-
doctrination courses or briefing lessons from the Army telling you that
the Communist conspiracy is dedicated to the overthrow of this
Government?
40558—54 — pt. 9-
360 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Private Ltnfield. Could you put that question again, sir?
Senator Mundt. Would the reporter read the question ?
(The reporter read the question.)
Private Linfield. I claim the fifth amendment on the question,
Senator.
Senator Dirksen. May I
The Chairman. Just to have the record complete I would like to
order the witness to answer Senator Mundt's question as to whether he
received certain material from the Army. It is the position of the
chairman the witness cannot invoke the fifth amendment privilege on
that question.
You are ordered to answer the question and I assume you decline.
Private Linfield. That is right.
Senator Dirksen. I was going to say for the benefit of the witness,
we are asking for statements of fact and not for expressions of opinion
or views. The question is simple. While you were in the Army did
you receive any courses of any kind or any literature that teaches that
the Communist jDhilosophy is dedicated to the overthrow of this Gov-
ernment by force and violence. If you did not, it is a statement of
fact, not opinion. It seems to me, Linfield, that the line shouldn't be
drawn quite so finely. The question merits an answer.
Private Linfield. The proper authority to ask on that would be the
training officer or proper Army authority.
Senator Mundt. The proper person to ask would be the person who
received it. We don't want to know whether they had the material
available. Just about a week ago the Army was given the national
award for their fine course of indoctrination. The course isn't any
good unless it gets down to the private. I am asking you, did you get
it.
If you don't want to answer and want to be in contempt of the com-
mittee, it is up to you. It is a question of fact.
Let the record show the witness consulted with his attorney.
Private Linfield. I received certain lectures or courses or talks with
other military personnel on the question of communism or Russia — or
along those lines.
Senator Mundt. Did those courses or lectures on communism teach
you that it was a conspiracy dedicated to world aggression and to over-
throwing our way of life in this country ?
(Witness consults with counsel.)
Private Linfield. Senator, yes, in general along those lines.
Senator Mundt. All right. You received those. Did you dis-
believe them? You say now you don't know whether communism is
that or not.
Private Linfield. Could you repeat the questions ?
Senator Mundt. Did you disbelieve the lectures you got?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Senator Mundt. I presume if you were a Communist and they gave
you lectures on that subject, you would naturally rebel against them
and reject them, or perhaps follow the Communist line and refuse
to answer. Could you think of any reason why a good, loyal Ameri- ,
can boy would refuse to answer whether or not he accepted or rejected
the Army's briefing on the subject?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 361
Private Lintield. Would you repeat the question, please ?
Senator Mundt. Would the reporter read the question?
(The reporter read the question.)
Private Linfield. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Senator Dirksen. Mr. Linfield, you testified just now you did
receive literature, some lectures, that sort of thing along the general
lines of the subject discussed here. You have received those?
Private Linfield. I testified I received literature or lectures or tall^s,
some information, indoctrination along those lines. I wasn't specific
as to what that was.
Senator Dirksen. If you listened to the lectures, I infer from your
answer that means you doubtless are familiar with the general content
of the lecture. You knew what it was about. If you sat in a class-
room in the Army and heard a lecture along those general lines, you
would know pretty well what the lecture was about.
Private Linfield. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question.
Senator Dirksen. You are surely not confessing to yourself or the
committee that you sat in those lectures, lecture hall, and listened to
the lecture on certain principles of government, forms of government,
and not know what it is about.
Mr. Friedman. That is purely a legal thesis, and calls for operation
of the witness' mind, and is objectionable on that ground.
Senator Dirksen. The witness testified he received some literature?
Private Linfield. I did not so testify, sir. I said "literature or
talks or briefings or something."
Senator Potter. What did you receive?
Senator Dirksen. Then you received some literature ?
(Witness consults with counsel.)
Senator Dirksen. That is purely a mechanical matter and doesn't
involve an opinion of the witness. You have to qualify the witness
in this sense. The chairman hands me this. The question is: Did
I read it? Wliat I want to know, after he received the literature,
did he read it?
That is not a question of opinion. It is a question of fact. If you
received lectures or literature, did you examine the literature? That
you can answer "Yes" or "No."
Private Linefield. Well, I testified. Senator, that I received litera-
ture or lectures or talks.
Senator Dirksen. Receiving literature is one thing. If you stuck
it in your pocket and when you got over to the barracks you threw
it in the wastebasket or put it in the stove — did you look at the litera-
ture after you got it? That is not a matter of opinion. Did you or
didn't you ?
(Witness consults with counsel.)
Private Linfield. Senator, I don't remember receiving literature.
I don't remember receiving literature.
Senator Potter. Did you attend lectures ? Did you receive a lecture
on this subject?
Private Linfield. Lecture or talk ; yes.
Senator Potter. You said lecture or talk ?
362 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Private Linfield. Yes, I believe so, Senator.
Senator Potter. Then the question Senator Dirksen asked you was
whether yon listened to the lectures and you were able to comprehend
what the lecturer was saying.
Private Linfield. That I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment. That, as my counsel said, is operation of the mind com-
prehension.
The Chairman. Senator Dirksen, Senator McClellan, Senator Pot-
ter, and Senator Mundt have asked a very pertinent question — why
isn't this an open session ? I think it should be made public.
(Off-record discussion.)
(The witness and his counsel left the room for the off-record dis-
cussion.)
The Chairman. Private Linfield, you have a brother, Jordan?
Private Linfield. One moment. Senator, while I sit down and get
ready.
The Chairman. I beg your pardon.
Private Linfield. Could you wait 'til I sit down? O. K., Senator.
The Chairman. Now that you are sitting down
Private Linfield. Yes, Senator.
The Chairman. Is your brother working on Government work?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment, and you shouldn't ask me questions about my family.
The Chairman. Do you have a brother, Seymour ?
Private Linfield. I refuse to answer the questions on the basis of
the fifth amendment. That is a family question.
Senator Mundt. Do you have a brother, Seymour ?
Private Linfield. Yes. I have a brother Seymour.
The Chairman. Is your brother Seymour working for the Govern-
ment ?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Do you have a sister, Mrs. Allan Weingarten ?
Private Linfield. Yes, Senator.
The Chairman. Does she work for the Government?
Private Linfield. I decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer whether or not she
is working for the Government.
Private Linfield. I decline.
The Chairman. Do you have a brother-in-law, Allan Weingarten ?
Private Linfield. That is also a family question. Yes.
The Chairman. Does he work for the Government ?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Did the personnel manager, Mr. Stohldrier, ask
you whether you were a Communist before requesting a draft defer-
ment for you ?
Private Linfield. I decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Just so you will not claim ignorance at some future
legal proceeding, I am not asking you whether they are Communists.
The question carries no implication that they are Communists. The
answer carries no implication that they are Communists. The ques-
tion was if Stohldrier asked you if you were a Communist before he
requested a draft deferment for you ?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 363
Private Linfield. I decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Senator Dirksen. Did you ever request a draft deferment?
Private Linfield. One moment, Senator.
(Witness consults with counsel.)
What was your question, Senator ?
Senator Dirksen. Did you ever request a deferment from selective-
service draft?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer, Senator.
The Chairman. It is a question of fact, not a question of opinion.
You will be ordered to answer.
Does the witness refuse to answer whether or not he himself ever
requested a deferment from selective-service draft? No opinion is
involved ; it is a question of fact.
Private Linfield. I continue to decline on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Have the record show the witness was ordered to
answer the question and still declined.
Senator McClellan. Let us ask it this way: Do you decline to
answer the question after you have been ordered to answer that ? You
can answer that "Yes" or "Xo." Did you decline after
Private Linfield. I continue to decline to answer the question.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever do anything in violation of the laws of
the LTnited States while in the Army ?
Private Linfield. Would you repeat that question?
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever do anythiuo; in violation of the laws of
the United States while you have been in the Army?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Senator Dirksen. Mr. Linfield, what is your regular address?
Wliat do you call home?
Private Linfield. You mean my civilian address?
Senator Dirksen. Yes.
Private Linfield. 1475 Townsend Avenue in the Bronx.
Senator Dirksen. Does your brother Jordan have a middle name ?
Private Linfield. Yes.
Senator Dirksen. "N^Hiat is the full name of your brother, Jordan ?
Private Linfield. Jordan LaPorte Linfield.
Senator Dirksen. And does your brother Seymour have a middle
name ?
Private Linfield. Yes, sir.
Senator Dirksen. Wliat is his full name?
, Private Linfield. Seymour LaPorte Linfield.
Senator Dirksen. Does your brother Jordan also live in New York?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Senator Dirksen. It is a question of fact. Either he does or he
does not.
Private Linfield. I decline to answer.
Senator Dirksen. Does your brother Seymour live in New York?
Private Linfield. I decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Senator Dirksen. Do you know where Jordan lives ?
Private Linfield. I decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question.
364 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Do you know where your brother Seymour lives ?
Private Linfield. One moment, Senator.
(Witness consults with counsel.)
What was the last question ?
The Chairman. Do you know where your brother Jordan lives?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
The Chairman. Do you know where your brother Seymour lives?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
The Chairman. Do you know where your sister, Mrs. Allan Wein-
garten lives ?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Senator Dirksen. How old is your brother, Jordan Linfield?
The Chairman. Do you think this is funny ?
Private Linfield. No, sir.
Senator Dirksen. It won't be later. It is very serious.
The Chairman. Go ahead and laugh and smirk all you like.
Senator Dirksen. These are not questions of opinion. They are
questions of fact.
Private Linfield. What was the questions ?
Senator Dirksen. I asked you where your brother Jordan lives.
You declined to answer. Then I asked you how old Jordan is, if you
know.
Private Linfield. I may be off a little but I think he is 31' years old.
Senator Dirksen. How old is your brother Seymour ?
Private Linfield. I think he is 37 years old. I may be off a little.
Senator Dirksen. How old is your sister, Mrs. Weingarten ?
Private Linfield. I think she is 22 years old. I may be off a year or
2 years.
Senator Dirksen. All right. It is not too material — just to estab-
lish your two brothers and sister are not people of tender years. You
tire only 2G yourself?
Private Linfield. I am going on 26.
Senator Dirksen. So your sister is younger and your two brothers
are older than you. From that we have a right to infer, if there is
something damaging in the record, they are at the age of discretion. It
is presumed that at the age of 26, you know what you are doing.
Senator Potter. What is your present military assignment?
Private Linfield. I am on temporary duty at Fort Myer.
Senator Potter. Do you have any knowledge of what duty you will
be assigned to at Fort Dix ?
Private Linfield. You mean when I return to Fort Dix? I was
under orders, sir, to report to Camp Detrick, Md., next.
Senator Potter. Wliat is your specialty with the Army — your MOS
classification ?
Private Linfield. One moment, sir.
(Witness consults with counsel.)
Private Linfield. I have a 1392 as my specialty. That is assistant
mathematician and statistician. That is the title.
Senator Potter. Before you were assigned to temporary duty at
Fort Myer, and before you were hospitalized, what was your military
duty?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 365
Private Linfield. Before I was hospitalized, I was in training at
Fort Dix, basic training ; then I was hospitalized for 8 months ; then
T was returned to Fort Dix to finish basic training. After I finished
basic training I was put on temporary duty at Fort Myer, Va., for the
purpose of appearing before this committee.
Senator Dirksen. Are you a graduate of City College, New York ?
Private Linfield. No, Senator.
Senator Dirksen. Did you attend City College, New York City ?
Private Linfield. You mean as a student, Senator ?
The Chairman. In any capacity ?
Did you attend classes at City College, New York City ?
Private Linfield. As a student that means ?
One moment, please — I was never a student at City College, New
York.
Senator Dirksen. You say you were never a student. First, let's
go back a little. Did you graduate from high school ?
Private Linfield. Yes ; I did.
Senator Dirksen. What high school ?
Private Linfield. Bronx High School.
Senator Dirksen. Did you then attend some college ?
Private Linfield. Yes; I did.
Senator Dirksen. What college ?
Private Linfield. New York University.
Senator Dirksen. How long were you in New York University?
Private Linfield. I began
Senator Dirksen. Just roughly.
Private Linfield. Well, I attended many years. I continued to
take courses at New York University practically until the time I
entered the Army.
Senator Dirksen. Are you a graduate of New York University ?
Private Linfield. Yes.
Senator Dirksen. What degree ?
Private Linfield. Bachelor's degree and master's degree.
Senator Dirksen. Now, what did you major in when you got your
bachelor's degree?
Private Linfield. I majored in mathematics. Now, I forget
whether I also majored in English or minored in English.
Senator Dirksen. That is how you became a very accomplished
mathematician today. Is that correct ?
Private Linfield. I hope so, Senator.
Senator Dirksen. You said something about statistics ?
Private Linfield. I studied some statistics. Senator.
Senator Dirksen. At New York University ?
Private Linfield. Well, I don't know whether I ever took a formal
course. Yes, once I did take a course. I also studied on my own.
Senator Dirksen. What was the subject matter of the thesis when
you got your master's degree ? I assume you wrote a thesis. '\A^iat
was the subject?
Private Linfield. It was a mathematical subject.
Senator Dirksen. It had a title, didn't it ?
Private Linfield. You want that ?
Senator Dirksen. Yes.
366 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Private Linfield. I believe this is the exact title: "History of
Existence and Uniqueness of Theorems in Ordinary Differential Equa-
tions." That was my master's thesis when I got my master's degree.
Senator Dirksen. And it generally deals with what?
Private Lineield. Well, it deals with a technical mathematical
subject.
Senator Dirksen. You would just say you wrote a history of the
differences in existence and uniquenesses in existence today and you
probably went back to Euclid to bring it up to date.
Private Linfield. I am sorry, Senator.
Senator Dirksen. It is not material.
Private Linfield. It is a technical thing. I could explain it but
it w^ould take some time.
Senator Dirksen. In all kindness, your answer to some very simple
questions where we sought only to get the facts, not opinions, on the
basis of your mental training that you have had, it would look rather
strange.
(Off the record discussion.)
Senator Mundt, I have a question for the witness.
Mr. Linfield, at the time of your induction into the Army, did you
take a loyalty oath ?
Private Linfield. That is an internal Army matter, Senator. That
is between the Army and me.
Senator Mundt. It is a question of fact. You can answer "yes" or
"no."
Private Linfield. One moment, Senator.
(Witness consults with counsel.)
I claim the fifth amendment on that. Senator.
The Chairman. You are ordered to ansAver the question.
Private Linfield. I continue to claim the fifth amendment. Senator.
Senator McClellan. Are you willing to take a loyalty oath to your
Government now ?
Are you willing to take an oath now that you are loyal to the United
States Government ?
Private Linfield. One moment.
(Witness consults with counsel. )
Yes, Senator.
Senator McClellan. You will take that oath now— that you are
loyal to the United States Government ?
The Chairman. And to defend the Constitution of the United
States against all enemies, foreign and domestic ?
Private Linfield. Yes, sir, Senator.
Senator Potter. And you will take an oath that you do not belong
to an organization dedicated to the overthrow of our Government by
force and violence ?
Private Linfield. Could you say that again, Senator ?
Senator Potter. Along with that loyalty oath would you state that
you do not now belong to an organization that is dedicated to the over-
throw of our Government by force and violence ?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer that.
Senator Potter. You stated that you were willing to take a loyalty
oath at this time. In answer to Senator McClellan's question, you
stated you would be willing to take a loyalty oath. Most loyalty
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 367
oaths I have seen ask the question, "Do you belong to any organiza-
tion dedicated to the overthrow of our Government by force and vio-
lence?" On the one hand you said you would be willing to take the
oath, but you refused to answer the question whether you belong to any
organization dedicated to the overthrow of our Government by force
and violence.
Private Linfield. Well, I stated I would be willing to uphold the
Constitution and defend it against all enemies, domestic and foreign,
and that is what I stated previously.
The Chairman. Would you defend it against Communist Russia?
Private Linfield. I would obey the orders of my commanding of-
ficer.
The Chairman. If the Communist Party were to order you to com-
mit espionage or sabotage would you obey those orders?
Private Linfield. I have never committed espionage or sabotage
and I never will.
The Chairman. The question is. If the Communist Party were to
order you to commit espionage or sabotage, would you refuse to obey
those orders ?
Private Linfield. I never will commit espionage or sabotage and I
never have.
The Chairman. Please answer the question.
Private Linfield. I believe I just answered your question, Senator.
The Chairman. Will you answer the question ?
Private Linfield. I don't understand. Senator.
The Chairman. I will make it very clear. Let me ask you this.
Would you disobey an order from Communist Party ordering you to
commit espionage or sabotage ?
Private Linfield. I will obey all legal orders of my commanding
officer and will obviously never commit espionage or sabotage.
The Chairman. I am going to insist that you answer the question
whether or not you would disobey orders from the Communist Party
if they told you to commit espionage or sabotage. Your answer might
get you in difficulty with the Communist Party but I am going to order
you to answer the question.
Private Linfield. I have answered it three times.
Senator McClellan. Answer "yes" or "no" without the qualifying
remarks. Would you disobey ?
Private Linfield. I have never and will never commit espionage
or sabotage.
Senator Potter. Even if the Communist Party ordered you to do
so? _
Private Linfield. When I stated I will not ever commit espionage
or sabotage, I meant that in the absolute sense and without any
qualifications.
Senator Potter. If the Fascists ordered you to commit sabotage,
would you do it ?
Private Linfield. "When I said I wouldn't commit sabotage or
espionage, I meant it without reservation.
Senator Potter. Including the Communist Party?
Private Linfield. Yes, including anybody.
Senator McClellan. Your answer is "Yes" you would disobey an
order, is that correct, of the Communist Party to commit espionage
or sabotage ? Is your answer "Yes" or "No" ?
40658— 64— pt. 9 3
368 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Private Linfield. I would disobey anybody or any organization
which told me to commit espionage and sabotage and report that fact
to competent authority.
Senator McClellan. The answer is "Yes." Why don't you say yes ?
Wliat are you hedging about ?
Private Linfield. I am not hedging at all.
Senator McClellan. I don't see why you hesitated to say yes, that
you would disobey such an order.
(Witness consults with counsel).
Private Linfield. All right, Senator, the answer is "Yes."
Senator McClellan. Why didn't you make the statement right
away without reservation ? You go all the way around ?
Private Linfield. Yes, I would disobey.
The Chairman. Have you ever received orders from the Com-
munist Party ?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Have you ever disobeyed any order from the Com-
munist Party ?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Now, you took the fifth amendment before us last
December when in the military. Subsequent to the time you appeared
before us and took the fifth amendment, were you questioned by any
military authorities?
Private Linfield. Wliat is that question again ? I didn't hear the
question. Senator.
The Chairman. Were you questioned by any military authorities
in regard to alleged Communist activities on your part after you ap-
peared before our committee last December, at which time you took the
fifth amendment ?
Private Linfield. That is an internal Army matter.
The Chairman. Answer the question.
Private Linfield. I decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer.
(Witness consults with counsel.)
Private Linfield. I continue to decline, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you attend any meetings at City College, New
York ?
Private Linfield. What meetings?
Mr. Kennedy. Any kind of meetings at all ? Have you ever been to
City College of New York?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever attend meetings at City College, New
York?
Private Linfield. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever take courses at City College, New
York? y ^^
Private Linfield. To the best of my knowledge, no.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you attend meetings at City College, New York,
where courses were not griven?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 369
Private Lixfield. I don't understand your question.
Mr. Kennedy. Did yon attend meetings at City College of New
York where City College courses were not given ?
Private Linfield. I decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer.
Private Linfield. I decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. You may step down.
Mr. Friedman. Senator, may I ask whether the committee is plan-
ning to see this witness again in the immediate future?
The Chairman. We don't know. He will consider himself under
subpena. Counsel will give you notice.
Mr. Friedman. It is all right for me to return to New York ? Will
you want us tomorrow I
The Chairman. We will let you know. I can't see any reason why
we will want you in the foreseeable future.
(Off the record discussion.)
TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY RUBINSTEIN
The Chairman. In the matter noAv in hearing, do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Kubinstp:in. I do.
The Chairman. Will you give us your full name?
Mr. Rubinstein. Sidney Rubinstein.
The Chairjman. You understand you are entitled to counsel and
sufficient time to acquire counsel if you desire it?
Mr. Rubinstein. I don't feel I need one, sir.
The Chairman. How long were you in the military ?
Mr. Rubinstein. A year and 3 months, sir.
The Chairman. When were you discharged?
Mr. Rubinstein. The 18th of February, this year.
The Chairman. What type of discharge did 3'ou receive?
Mr. RimiNSTEiN. General discharge under honorable conditions.
The Chairman. And the gi^ounds for the discharge were what ?
Mr. Rubinstein. There was Army regulations, I think, Communist
affiliations. I don't have the number available. It was read to me.
The CiiAiR^iAN. Army regulations were read to you to the effect
that if you had a Communist affiliation you would receive this type of
discharge.
Mr. Rubinstein. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. So far as you know such a rule exists?
Mr. Rubinstein. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You were discharged when?
Mr. RuBiNsiT^iN. The 18th of February, this year.
The Chairman. "When was the regulation read to you?
Mr. Rubinstein. It was read to me at the time I was getting my
discharge. I requested them to read it.
The Chairman. Who read it to you?
Mr. Rubinstein. It was read to me by some lieutenant. I don't
know his name.
The Chairman. What camp?
Mr. Rubinstein. Fort Devens.
370 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Had you refused to sign the loyalty oath?
Mr. Rubinstein. No, sir. I did not refuse to sign it. I couldn't
sign it. I signed a qualifying statement. I have a duplicate of it here
in my pocket. May I
The Chairman. Certainly.
Mr. Rubinstein. This type forai has no relation to this. This is
a form — the type I made a statement on — DD Form 98. Would you
like to look at it, sir ?
The Chairman. ^'\Tiat type of statement did you make on this form ?
Mr. Rubinstein. This particular form was a request for a duplica-
tion of the first one made and because I didn't have a form available,
I was unwilling to answer that particular one they have there. Because
I didn't have the form, I had to request constitutional privilege;
merely because I didn't have the form available.
Senator Potter. Constitutional privilege to what ?
The Chairman. Let me ask you this? Are you a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Rubinstein. No, sir. I am not.
The Chairman. Have you ever belonged to the Communist Party ?
Mr. Rubinstein. Yes.
The Chairman. Wlien did you drop out ?
Mr. Rubinstein. I dropped out in late 1947.
The Chairman. And if you are not, would you be willing to give
Army Intelligence or the FBI any information which you might have
about people who were Communists at the time you were ?
Mr. Rubinstein. Yes, sir; I would. I would be willing to co-
operate.
The Chairman. You haven't up to this time ?
Mr. Rubinstein. I have given the Army the information they re-
quested from me on the questionnaire.
The Chairman. You will be willing to go down to the FBI and
talk to them ?
Mr. Rubinstein. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Let me find out. Are you now or have you ever
been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Rubinstein. I have been, sir.
Senator Mundt. Are you now ?
Mr. Rubinstein. No, sir. I haven't been for 6 years.
Senator Mundt. Were you a member and broke with the party ?
Mr. Rubinstein. Yes, sir.
Senator Dirksen. What were the mechanics for your getting out?
Mr. Rubinstein. I just walked out.
Senator Dirksen. Did the Army know that you had been ?
Mr. Rubinstein. That particular form the Senator is looking at
now in his hand had the loyalty oath on it to sign. I could not sign
it because of constitutional falsification.
Senator Dirksen. You were given a form of this type and you made
a complete statement?
Mr. Rubinstein. This was the only one I had available to make a
complete statement on explaining when I was a teen-ager I was asso-
ciated with Communists and Communist-front organizations and
listed those organizations and other information requested of me.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 371
Senator Dirksen. At the time you were recruited into the Army
were you a Communist?
Mr. Rubinstein. No, sir.
Senator Dirksen. Why would you be prechided from signing a
loyalty oath if you were a Communist when a teen-ager ?
Mr. Eubinstein. The loyalty oath was whether you had ever be-
longed to any of these organizations and signing it without making
any statements qualifying it would constitute a falsification.
Senator Dirksen. You were perfectly willing to sign a loyalty oath
in the present terms?
Mr. Rubinstein. Not only willing but I requested it of the Army.
Senator Dirksen. You wished to bring it to the attention of the
Army ?
Mr. Rubinstein. Yes.
The Chairman. Mr. Adams, here we have a young man who had
broken with the party and was willing to sign any oath in regard
to present-day loyalty. He was given a discharge other than honorable
and Major Peress was given an honorable discharge. Another private
who is clearly a Communist is still in the service. The Army discharge
procedure in loyalty cases lacks consistency.
Mr. Adams. I think the witness said "General discharge under hon-
orable conditions.''
Mr. Rubinstein. That is right. General discharge under honorable
conditions.
The Chairman. That is not a straight honorable discharge?
Mr. Rubinstein. No, sir.
The Chairman. Let us have the record clear. ]\Iajor Peress received
an honorable discharge. This man received something less.
Mr. Adams. The type of discharge open to officers is different from
the type open to enlisted men. In the case of an officer, he is entitled
to either an honorable discharge, discharge under other than honorable
circumstances, or dishonorable discharge. An enlisted man is entitled
to an honorable discharge. The second type is general discharge under
honorable conditions, and then three — the others I won't attempt to
name them.
The Chairman. It appears to me, John — Why didn't this young
man receive an honorable discharge? I might ask why was he dis-
charged ? He seems to be completely frank and honest and is willing
to talk to the committee. He is willing to talk to the intelligence
agents.
Senator Potter. Apparently when he went in he didn't try to hide
the fact that he had been a member of the Communist Party. The
reason he failed to sign the loyalty oath is that he would have to falsify
the document.
Senator Dirksen. What was written on the discharge when you
were separated from the service? There are remarks there usually.
On the discharge there is a specific reason.
Mr. Rubinstein. If you are interested, I have the discharge and
form 214 and a copy of the orders requesting my discharge?
Senator Dirksen. Does it give the reason ?
Mr. Rubinstein. That doesn't come on the discharge. It comes on
form 214.
Senator Dirksen. What does that say ?
'372 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. Rubinstein (reading).
No time lost under section 6a, appendix 2b MCM 1951. Personnel grade, pri-
vate— 2, 17 March 1953. Aptitude area I 126. Blood type A. Authority : Letter
file. ACPO-XD 201. TAGO, Washington, D. C, dated January 27, 1954.
Senator McCleijlan. Were you recently discharged ?
Mr. Rubinstein. Yes, sir.
Senator McClellan. How long were you in service ?
Mr. Rubinstein. For a year and 3 months.
Senator McClellan. When you were discharged were you dis-
charged because of the fact that you had been a Communist?
Mr. Rubinstein. I guess so. I guess it was considered affiliation.
I don't know exactly what regulation.
Senator McClellan. You were not due to get a discharge that
soon? You didn't serve the regular time?
Mr. Rubinstein. No, I was not ready for discharge.
Senator McClellan. There was a special order discharging you ?
Mr. Rubinstein. Yes.
The Chairman. They read to him the section of the regulations
providing for liis discharge because of affiliation with the Communist
Party.
Senator Mundt. What were the circumstances under which this
thing came up? You were running along as an ordinary GI and
something happened ?
Mr. Rubins'it:in. Well, I was at Camp Kilmer where I made the
statement. I was sent down to Fort Dix to the Infantry. From the
Infantry I was sent to Fort Banks, Antiaircraft Artillery. When
I was sent to the antiaircraft site, the lieutenant who interviewed me
asked me if I attended college. I was then put on the range section,
which is radar, M-3o radar set. I worked on that for a period of
5 or 6 months. I was doing communications work and one of the
officers at the AAOC, Antiaircraft Operations Command, was satis-
fied— more than satisfied with the work I was doing and requested
me to be transferred to the headquarters battery to work on another
type of radar. In order to get on that set, this is all my point of
view, you had to be cleared for secret. You had to be cleared for
secret to work on this type of radar. They tried to clear me for secret
and it was immediately stopped. The Army refused to clear me.
At that point the officer that had ordered me down, ordered me to
headquarters battery, and they put me on a truck, which they con-
sidered wasn't too strategic a job — driving a truck around. That is
what I was doing.
Senator Mundt. You haveri't been associated with Communist
fronts in the last couple of years?
Mr. Rubinstein. No, sir.
Mr. CoiiN. Since 1947?
Mr. Rubinstein. I was working for the Progressive Party.
Mr. CoHN. When did you break completely ?
Mr. Rubinstein. 1948. Right after the 1948 election.
Mr. CoHN. The last 5 or 6 years you were out and have had nothing
to do with them.
The Chairman. Nevertheless, you were discharged under this regu-
lation for Communist affiliation?
Mr. Rubinstein. Yes.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 373
The Chairman. Do I iinderstimd that you are willing to talk to
the FBI, Military Intelligence or a hearing by this subcommittee to
disclose the information that you have in your possession concern-
ing the Communist Party and its activities, and you will testify to
the proper authorities in that regard?
Mr. EuBiNSTEiN. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. What are you doing now ?
Mr. Rubinstein. I am unemployed now.
(Wliereupon, the hearing adjourned.)
I
AKMY SIGNAL CORPS-SUBYEESION AND ESPIONAGE
FRIDAY, MARCH 5, 1954
United States Senate,
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
OF THE Committee on Government Operations,
Washington^ D. C.
The subcommittee met at 10 : 30 a. m., pursuant to notice, in room
357, Senate Office Building, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy (chairman)
presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin;
Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, Washington.
Present also : Roy M. Colin, chief counsel ; Francis P. Carr, execu-
tive director; Daniel G. Buckley, assistant counsel; Robert Francis
Kennedy, counsel to minority ; James Juliana, investigator ; and Ruth
y. Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Who is your first witness, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Corn. Mr. Peter Gragis.
The Chairman. Will you stand and be sworn ?
In this matter now in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly
swear the testimony you will give is the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I first want to apologize to you, Mr. Gragis, for
having to hold you over an extra clay. The testimony took longer
yesterday than we expected. I want to thank you very much for
staying over to testify.
TESTIMONY OF PETER A. GRAGIS
Mr. CoHN. May we get your full name, please ?
Mr. Gragis. Peter A. Gragis.
Mr. CoHN. That is G-r-a-g-i-s?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Corn. And you come from New York ; is that right ?
Mr. Gragis. Levittown, Long Island, N. Y.
Mr. CoHN. Where were you born ?
Mr. Gragis. Great Neck, Long Island, N. Y.
Mr. CoHN. Where did you receive your education ?
Mr. Gragis. Great Neck Arrandale Grammar School, Great Neck
High School, New York University, University of Kentucky, and
some other courses.
Mr. CoHN. Did you take courses in architecture ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes.
375
40558— 54— pt. 9 4
376 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. CoHN. Is that your specialty ?
Mr. Gragis. Architecture; art was my specialty for a good number
of years.
Mr. CoHN. Have you held employment in various defense plants
and war plants in the country?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. What are some of them?
Mr. Gragis. I started in 1936, and worked in Ford Instrument Co.
in Long Island City, N. Y., which company manufactured range-
finders for battleships.
Mr. CoHN. You say you worked at Ford Instrument Co. and they
were making rangefinders ; is that right ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. What other defense plants did you work at besides
Ford?
Mr. Gragis. De Laval Separator Works up in Poughkeepsie.
Mr. CoHN. How do you spell that ?
Mr. Gragis. D-e L-a-v-a-1 Separator Works, Poughkeepsie.
Mr. CoHN. "Wliat did you produce up there ?
Mr. Gragis. It is an old concern originally manufacturing mechan-
ical milk separators, and then they turned to electrical milk sepa-
rators. With the appearance for the need of equipment for the serv-
ices, DeLaval received some subcontracts to do work for the forces
consisting mainly of fire cutoffs and limit stops for the flying
fortresses.
Mr. CoHN. From De Laval where did you go?
Mr. Gragis. I thought I was going to be inducted into the services,
so I resigned and came to New York. However, when I found that
I was rejected, I looked around in the vicinity of New York City for
employment, and the first job I got I do believe was Kollsman Instru-
ment Co.
Mr. CoHN. Kollsman, K-o-l-l-s-m-a-n?
Mr. Gragis. That is right, sir.
Mr. CoHN. What did you serve as with Kollsman ?
Mr. Gragis. As research assistant to Dr. Paul G. Weiler.
Mr. CoHN. What were they working on there ?
Mr. Gragis. Where I was working was at 65th Street, Woodside,
separate from the factory, which was in Elmhurst. We were doing
essentially research, gathering data on flow meters and solving prob-
lems for the Kollsman Instrument Co. at Elmhurst.
Mr. CoHN. Where did you go from Kollsman ?
Mr. Gragis. I went to work for Simmonds Aerocessories.
Mr. CoHN. That is S-i-m-m-o-n-d-s ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes; Aerocessories.
Mr. CoHN. In Long Island?
Mr. Gragis. Long Island City.
Mr. CoHN. What kind of work were they doing there ?
Mr. Gragis. Hydraulic accumulators, push-pull controls, hydraulic
metering valves, aircraft pressure control and power boosters — what
do you call them ?
Mr. CoHN. I think we have the general trend of what you were
doing.
Mr. Gragis. Yes.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 377
Mr. CoHN. Did you subsequently go to work for the Federal Tele-
communications Laboratories in Huntley, N. J. ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, but before I went to work there, I went to work for
Bulova Watch Co.
Mr. CoHN. I assume you did not do sensitive work at Bulova ; is that
right, or did you ?
Mr. Gragis. We were at that time trying to design something which
would have meant a contract to Bulova. However, although we did
design the instrument, our efforts to get the bid were not successful.
Some other company got it.
Mr. CoHN. Was that a Government job?
Mr. Gragis. It would have been a Government job.
Mr. CoHN. From Bulova, did you go to Federal Telecommunications
Laboratories ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, I did.
Mr. CoHN. Did you go there in 1945 ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, Mr. Cohn, I did.
Mr. CoHN. Then you stayed there from 1945 until when?
Mr. Gragis. Until I was separated, which was early in 1950.
Mr. Cohn. From 1945 until early in 1950?
Mr. Gragis. Yes.
Mr. CoHN. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Gragis. I regret to say, Mr. Cohn, that I made the mistake of
joining the party quite a number of years ago.
Mr. Cohn. When did you first join the Communist Party?
Mr. Gragis. It was in 1934 or 1935.
Mr. Cohn. I would like to make this clear. You are not today a
Communist ; is that right ?
Mr. Gragis. I have not been a member for a number of years now.
Mr. Cohn. Did you break with the party completely in the year
1951?
Mr. Gragis. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. And from 1951 to this time you have not been a member
of the Communist Party, and you have not been connected with the
Communist movement ; is that right ?
Mr. Gragis. That is correct.
The Chairman. So the record will be clear, Mr. Cohn, this young
man has been completely cooperative with the committee, and has given
the committee and the FBI a great deal of valuable information.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Gragis, you say you joined the party around 1934
or 1935. Can you tell us this : Did you read any works at that time
which influenced you to join the party, any particular writings?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, I did. There were the petitions that were being
prepared by Herndon, the Scottsboro boys, and articles from the
Worker which were brought to my attention. Then copies of the
Manifesto, Das Kapital, dialectical materialism, and typical Com-
munist propaganda.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, the witness has supplied the committee
with the entire picture of his activities in the party. A good number
of names are involved, and with your permission this morning we
are going to refer only to the names of people who have already been
named before the committee and had an opportunity to testify, or
witnesses whom we have been able to produce before the committee
378 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
this morning, so they will have an opportunity to be heard as to the
accuracy of Mr. Gragis' statements concerning them. The other
names with your permission will not be given at this time, but will be
held until we can have the people named in executive session first.
The Chairman. Very good.
Mr, CoHN. By the way, while you were at Ford, you were a member
of the Communist cell, is that correct?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, I was.
Mr. CoHN. I do not want to go into the names on that, Mr. Chair-
man.
When you were working at DeLaval Separator Works in Pough-
keepsie, were you put in contact with the Communist Party up there?
Mr. Gragis. Not a company cell, so-called, but in a neighborhood
party unit.
Mr. CoHN. Were you introduced to a professor at Vassar College
who was a Communist Party member?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, I was.
Mr. CoHN. We have that name, Mr. Chairman, and we will not bring
it out, because we have not been able to contact the person.
The Chairman. Have you a subpena out for him?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, we do.
Now I want to get to the direct purpose of the hearing this morn-
ing, and that is your membership in the party while you were work-
ing at the Federal Telecommunications Laboratory where you worked
from 1945 to 1950. We have had before the committee a inan named
Harry Hyman who has invoked the fifth amendment as to Commu-
nist and conspiracy to commit espionage activities. I want to ask you
this. Did you know Harry Hyman to be a member of the Commu-
nist Party at Federal Telecommunications Laboratory ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, I did.
Mr. CoHN. Was Hyman an active member of the party ?
Mr. Gragis. Extremely active.
Mr. CoHN. Would you describe for the committee some of the Com-
munist activities which took place at the Federal Telecommunica-
tions Laboratories when you were a member of the party there ?
Mr. Gragis. I think he more than any individual established the
cell, in Federal Telecommunications Laboratories. He not only did
work of that nature, but he also was elected to the leadership of the
union which he mainly organized in the company. First, the shop
and maintenance, then the guards and then directed the organizing of
the rest of the company, the engineers, the draftsmen, and the clerks.
The Chairman. May I interrupt you, Mr. Cohn. I have already
referred the Hyman case to the Justice Department for prosecution
under the Smith Act. Therefore, I think all the testimony that is
taken from time to time in regard to Hyman should be iminediately
transmitted to Justice.
Mr. CoHN. Very well, Mr. Chairman.
Did you attend cell meetings of the Communist Party while em-
ployed at Federal Telecommunications Laboratory ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, I did.
Mr. CoHN. Was Hyman present at any of these cell meetings ?
Mr. Gragis. Not at every one, but he was present at many of them.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 379
Mr. CoiTN. Was the Daily Worker in evidence at these cell meet-
ing or at the time of your employment at the Federal Telecommunica-
tions Laboratory ?
Mr. Gragis. Tlie Daily Worker was brought into the cell and Hy-
man never did conceal the fact that he always carried several copies
in his briefcase with him, which he would read anywhere at any time.
]\Ir. CoHN. Did you pay dues to the Communist Party during this
period ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, I did.
Mr. CoHN. Did you have any Communist schooling during that
period ?
Mr. Gragis. If we did not, we would not have been a Communist
cell. Yes, we did. We would have regular periods at which time
we would discuss the basic propaganda, leaflet, booklet, magazine.
Mr. CoHN. In addition to that, did the party ever send you to Jef-
ferson School to study ?
Ml". Gragis. It seemed it was part of the policy of the party in the
area at that time to insist that all cells send some representatives to
the so-called Thomas Jefferson School, which was on the East Side of
New York.
Mr. CoHX. And you were sent to that school ?
Mr. Gragis. No one else seemed to want to go. I thought there
were some courses that I would at that time care to take, so I volun-
teered to go.
Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, with reference to the Jefferson School
teachings, once again there are names involved of people we have not
talked to, so I would ask that I be permitted not to elicit evidence on
that score.
The Chairmajst. Very well.
Mr. CoHN. Getting back to the instruction you received at the cell
meetings while you were employed at Federal Telecommunications
Laboratories, did you come across a man by the name of Frank McGee?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, I did.
Mr. CoHN. Was he a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, he was.
Mr. CoHN. Was he working at the Federal Telecommunications
Laboratory ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, he was.
Mr. ConN. What was the nature of McGee's activities in the Com-
munist cell ?
Mr. Gragis. Somewhat similar to Harry Hy man's, but he was also
the cell educator. He would propose and lead in the education and
discussion of Communist literature.
Mr. CoHN. Did he ever teach from State and Revolution, by Lenin ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, I think he enjoyed very much reading State and
Revolution himself, and he seemed to like reading it over a period of
several months in our cell.
The Chairman. Is Mr. McGee here ?
Mr. Gragis. I don't know.
The Chairman. I am just inquiring. Mr. Frank McGee. Will you
look at this man and see if this is the man you knew?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, Senator; that is Mr. McGee.
Senator Jackson. Have you ever worked for the Federal Govern-
ment?
380 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. Gragis. No, I never have ; sir.
Senator Jackson. You worked on contracts for a private company.
I mean you worked for private companies that had contracts with the
Military Establishment?
Mr. Gragis. That is right, sir.
Senator Jackson. Did you ever work on any classified material ?
Mr. Gragis. I will tell you most of the years — I went back from
around 1936 up until the time of my separation. My observation was
that many of the companies were rather careless in calling our atten-
tion to what was restricted, secret, classified, or otherwise confidential.
Over this period of time I did not see too much of that work.
Senator Jackson. Let me ask you this.
Mr. Gragis. I know the work was Government work and extremely
important.
Senator Jackson. First you worked for the Ford Co. in 1936 and
1937?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, and 1938.
Senator Jackson. And for some other companies ?
Mr. GuiVGis. Yes.
Senator Jackson. You say that these companies that were engaged
in defense work were careless in handling their security ?
Mr. Gragis, I thought they were. I can see it now, I would not
perhaps have realized it then, but I would say that they were, as I look
back at it now, benefiting from hindsight.
Senator Jackson. At the Federal Telecommunications Laboratoiy
where you were employed from 1945 to 1950, did you work on classi-
fied material ?
Mr. Gragis. There I would say what I said just a minute ago ap-
plied. I would say there should have been more care in indicating
classified, restricted, secret material. Actually, just before I was
separated, they were setting up one department, and it was pretty
Avell being publicized at that time that it was secret, and no one was
supposed to go in there.
Senator Jackson. I mean did you work on any classified material ?
Mr. Gragis. Well, all Government contracts were somewhat classi-
fied. If you ask, sir — I mean to say most of the documents I saw were
not stamped "secret," "confidential," "restricted," or otherwise.
Senator Jackson. Did you work on anything marked "restricted,"
"secret," "confidential," "top secret" ?
Mr. Gragis. I must have worked on classified material.
Senator Jackson. Do you recall whether you worked on anything
marked "restricted," "confidential," "secret," "top secret"?
Mr. Gragis. I do. I will tell you where ; for instance, it was known
that the work being done was extremely secret. During the period
of time when I was on loan from FTL to FTR and worked on the
mark V project at Hazeltine Electronics.
Senator Jackson. To get back to the question
Mr. (ttragis. That was secret. It was top secret.
Senator Jackson. Were the papers that you dealt with marked as
such ?
Mr, Gragis. The admission into it was very carefully looked into
by guards. We were told it was secret. We had to have cards that
w*e could not carry any documents except in our own personal port-
folios.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 381
The Chairman. May I say for the benefit of Senator Jackson the
company records that will be put in evidence will show that this young
man did have access to classified material up to and including secret.
Senator Jackson. That is what I am trying to get from him.
The Chairman. Restricted, confidential, and secret.
Senator Jackson. Let me ask you this : Do you recall whether the
company through the Military Establishment made any attempt to
get clearance for you ? Were you investigated ?
Mr. Gragis. I would imagine so, sir. I understood although I don't
know how true this is, I thought that the work on the mark V project
at Hazeltine Electronics you had to have special clearance over and
above ordinary clearance.
Senator Jackson. You do not know from your own knowledge
whether you were investigated for clearance ?
Mr. Gragis. Of course, I had heard at different times from different
friends of mine down in Kentucky or acquaintances who were ap-
proached by the Federal Bureau of Investigation or others, and I knew
I was being investigated.
Senator Jackson. Did you fill out a PSQ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, I did. That was, I believe, in 1947.
Senator Jackson. You filled that out l
Mr. Gragis. Yes, I did.
Senator Jackson. In that questionnaire, were you asked whether
you were a member of the Communist Party or advocated the over-
throw of the Government by force and violence, the usual questions ?
Mr. Gragis. There is a little history on even those PSQ's. I think
there were two types of PSQ's. One was where the question was, were
you a member of the Communist Party and believed in revolutionary
overthrow of the Government, and there was another type of PSQ
which did not ask that question, but which asked, do you believe in
violent overthrow of the Government, or something like that.
Senator Jackson. Which one did you fill out?
Mr. Gragis. The latter. I felt that was not perjuring myself at the
time when I filled it out. It asked to what organizations do you be-
long.
Senator Jackson. What did you fill out in answer to that question?
Mr. Gragis. I left the Communist Party out because I felt it was
a political organization.
Senator Jackson. But it asked what organization. Do you not
think there is probably a little perjury there?
Mr. Gragis. At the time I would have thought no, but I would cer-
tainly recognize it as such, today, sir.
Senator Jackson. You do not recall whether you did work on any
documents or material marked and stamped "classified" which would
include restricted, confidential, secret, top secret?
Mr. GuiVGis. I have seen the documents.
Senator Jackson. You have?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, but working day to day you do not see it coming
in.
Senator Jackson. You had access to it?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, I believe I had access to it.
Senator Jackson. Wliat was your mission as a member of the Com-
munist cell in the Federal Telecommunications Laboratory ?
382 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. Gragis. My mission, if you wish to use the word, was to use
the best of my abilities, my talents, toward completing the organiza-
tion of the draftsmen, the designers, and the clerical unit of the com-
pany and then to accept leadership in that union.
The Chairman. May I interrupt you to say this. I have been fol-
lowing the rule, especially when we have had a one-man committee,
of allowing anyone who has been named as a Communist to immedi-
ately come forward and testify. The witness has named Mr. McGee.
I would like to have him step aside, and have Mr. McGee tell whether
or not it is true whether he is a Communist or not. This witness will
be called back.
Senator Jackson. Just so I can talk to him. I have no objection
to following that procedure.
The Chairman. I would like to follow the rule of anyone being
named a Communist to come forward immediately.
Will you step aside, and Mr. McGee, will you come forward ?
Raise your right hand. In this matter now in hearing before this
committee, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
TESTIMONY OF FEANK MASON McGEE, MONEOE, LA., ACCOM-
PANIED BY VICTOR EOBINOWITZ, ATTORNEY AT LAW, NEW
YORK, N. Y.
Mr. McGee. I do.
The Chairman. Will counsel identify himself?
Mr. RoBiNowiTz. Victor Robinowitz, New York City.
Mr. CoHN. Mr. McGee, is your full name Frank McGee?
Mr. McGee. You mean any middle name?
Mr. CoHN. You are Frank McGee?
Mr. McGee. That is correct.
Mr. CoHN. Where do you reside now ?
Mr. McGee. Monroe, La.
Mr. CoHN. And you worked at the Federal Telecommunications
Laboratories ?
Mr. McGee. I have.
Mr. CoHN. During what period of time ?
Mr. McGee. About 31/2 years.
Mr. CoHN. From 1947 to 1950?
Mr. McGee. No, it was prior to 1947.
Mr. CoHN. Pardon me?
Mr. McGee. I don't recall the exact date offliand.
Mr. CoHN. That is all right. AVe do not need the exact date.
Mr. McGee. It was 31/2 years prior to 1947.
Mr. CoHN. Did you leave there in 1950 ?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
Mr. CoHN. When did you leave there ?
Mr. McGee. The best of my recollection is that I left there about
July 1947.
Mr. CoHN. You worked there prior to 1947?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. From 1944 to 1947, or something like that?
Mr. McGee. Something like that.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 383
Mr. CoiiN. "Wliat have you done since you left the telecommunica-
tions plant ?
Mr. McGee. I have taught television, primarily.
Mr. CoHN. While you were at the Telecommunications Laboratory,
were you educational director of a Communist Party cell operating
within the laboratory?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. CoHN. On what grounds ?
Mr. JNIcGee. On the grounds of the fifth amendment to the Consti-
tution.
Mr. CoHN. On the ground that the answer might tend to incrimi-
nate you under the fifth amendment ?
Mr. INIcGee. Yes.
Mr. CoHN. You heard the testimony of Mr. Gragis here this morn-
ing. Was that testimony insofar as it related to you, namely, that
you were a member of this Communist cell, that you were educational
director of the cell, and that you taught to the employes of the Fed-
eral Telecommunications Laboratory who belong to that cell from
State and Revolution? Was that testimony true?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that question on the same
The Chairman. You will have to state the ground.
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer the question under the protection of
the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
The Chairman. On the ground you might tend to incriminate
yourself ?
Mr. McGee. Yes.
Mr. CoHN. Have you ever worked in any defense plant other than
Federal Telecommunications Laboratory ?
Mr. McGee. I believe for a short period of time I worked at Kolls-
man Instrument Division of the Square-D Co. I think Mr. Gragis
identified it.
Mr. CoHN. Of what division ?
Mr. McGee. Square-D Co. It is the Kollsman Instrument of the
Square-D Corp. or company, or some such name.
Mr. CoHN. At that time were you a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. CoHN. Have you taught at any college or university at any
time ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. Where?
Mr. McGhee. University of Kentucky, Moorehead State Teachers
College.
Mr. CoHN. And while you were teaching at those colleges, were you
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that question.
The Chairman. You will have to state the grounds.
Mr. McGee. The same grounds as before.
The Chairman. You will have to state the ground each time.
Mr. McGee. The fifth amendment to the Constitution.
The Chairman. You will have to state the grounds and give us that
part of the fifth amendment which permits a witness to refuse if he
feels his answer might tend to incriminate him.
Mr. McGee. Yes.
384 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. You will have to state it each time you refuse.
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is that the part of the fifth amendment on which
you rely ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Wlien did you teach, Mr. McGee ?
Mr. McGee. I am sorry, I didn't hear the question.
The Chairman. "VVlien were you last teaching school ?
Mr. McGee. You mean in college ?
The Chairman. Any school.
Mr. McGee. I taught up until about last May or June.
The Chairman. Last May or June ?
Mr. McGee. Yes.
The Chairman. Were you a member of the Communist Party then ?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds,
sir.
Mr. RoBiNOWiTz. Senator, you asked that the light be turned off.
Can you enforce your directions ?
The Chairman. The witness will not have the light turned on him,
gentlemen. He has asked that it not be turned on him.
The Chairman. "What school were you teaching in ?
Mr. McGee. Pierce School of Radio and Television.
The Chairman. Pierce School of Radio and Television ?
Mr. McGee. Yes.
The Chairman. Wliere was that ?
Mr. McGee. 52 East 19th Street, New York City.
The Chairman. Does that school have any Government contracts of
any kind ?
Mr. McGee. Well, they have a lot of veteran students. I suppose
they have some kind of a Government contract.
The Chairman. They receive money from the Government ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Were you a Communist when you were teaching
there?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Are you a Communist as of this moment ?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Do you know Harry Hyman ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you know that Harry Hyman was an espion-
age agent?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds, sir.
The Chairman. Have you been engaged in espionage yourself?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you engaged in any sabotage?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
The Chairman. If the Communist Party were to order you to
engage in espionage, would you disobey that order?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever discussed secret or confidential
material with Harry Hyman ?
Mr. McGee. Well, sir ; I may have.
The Chairman. You may have?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 385
Mr. McGee. Could I explain my answer?
The Chairman. You may.
Mr. McGee. I would like to read briefly a statement in relation to
this which I would like to put in. I assui^ you it has to do with the
security setup at Federal and how I may have discussed this with Mr.
Hyman, or with anyone else.
The Chairman. There is a rule adopted by the subcommittee on
January 14, 1953, with which your counsel is fully familiar ; you must
submit \a written statement 21 hours in advance of the hearing at
which the statement is to be presented. However, we have been very
liberal in interpreting that rule, so if you will pass your statement up
so we can see it, we will tell you whether you can read it or not.
IVIr. McGee. It is in my own handwriting, sir.
The Chairman. Maybe I can read it. Pass the statement up, Mr.
Counsel.
Mr. McGee. Do I have permission to read it?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. McGee. In order to make my answer completely clear, I must
explain the security setup at Federal. There were armed guards at
all possible entrances to the laboratories for the purpose of keeping
out all unauthorized persons. Each employee was provided with a
badge, and it was necessary to obtain clearance through the appropri-
ate Government agency in order to have that badge.
The Chairman. May I interrupt. Senator Jackson, will you take
over for a few minutes ? I will be right back.
Senator Jackson (presiding). You may proceed.
Mr. IMcGee. Inside the labs there were all sorts of classified material
lying about.
The Chairman. Let me interrupt you. This is generally not the
approved one-man subcommittee.
Senator Jackson. I am not making it such.
Mr. McGee. Inside the labs there was all sorts of classified material
lying about without any additional protection. Engineers were espe-
cially free to wander about in their own or other departments. In-
dividual engineers often helped each other without the formality of
asking for any special clearance or authorization. For example, Dr.
Iskandourian said he needed a certain device with certain specifications
and he had been unable to design it or obtain the design from any
source. Since I had been designing such devices and equipment on
which I was working, I sat down in about 5 minutes and dashed off
the design and presented it to him. Later he thanked me profusely
and made some very flattering remarks about my ability. I am not
trying to prove anything with this. I am only trying to let the com-
mittee know the facts. If in the manner described above I passed
any classified information to an espionage agent, the responsibility
must lie with the agency that cleared him and allowed him to work
with me.
Now let me cover the field of people who had not been given special
clearance by Government agencies to work with me at Federal. I
never knowingly gave classified information to any such unauthorized
person nor did I induce anyone else to do so. Neither did I persuade
or attempt to persuade anyone either at Federal or elsewhere to do so.
No one in my memory eitlier inside or outside of Federal ever tried
386 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
to get me to do any of these things or stated before me that these things
should be done, nor do I have any knowledge of anyone who did or,
is doing any of these things.
Let me state that the above statement includes, but is not restricted
to and without necessarily admitting that I know any such people, all
members and officers of the Communist Party and all agents of foreign
governments, whether friendly, enemy or neutral.
Senator Jackson. I take it from your statement that you did not
know of any espionage at Federal Telecommunications Laboratory?
Mr. McGee. I was unaware of any espionage.
Senator Jackson. Were you aware of any unauthorized giving out
of any kind of classified information to persons not authorized to
receive it?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
Senator Jackson. What about Mr. Hyman ? Did you Imow Hariy
Hyman ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir ; I did.
Senator Jackson. How long did you know him or how long have
you known him ?
Mr. McGee. Let me put it this way, sir. Shortlj^ after I went to
work at Federal I met Harry Hyman at a union meeting.
Senator Jackson. What union ?
Mr. McGee. The union that organized the Federal, the Federation
of Architects, Engineers, Chemists, and Technicians.
Senator Jackson. Of the CIO ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. That was later kicked out of the CIO ?
Mr. McGee. I believe so.
Senator Jackson. On the ground that it was Communist dominated.
Mr. McGee. I don't know what ground it was kicked out. I was
not a member of it at the time.
Senator Jackson. You were a member of it at the time ?
Mr. McGee. I was not.
Senator Jackson. You met him at a meeting ?
Mr. McGee. I met him at a union meeting. He was primarily con-
cerned with organizing the shop workers with whom he was working,
and I was interested in organizing the engineers.
Senator Jackson. You were organizing them for what union?
Mr. McGee. Federation of Architects, Engineers, Chemists, and
Technicians.
Senator Jackson. But you were not a member of it?
Mr. McGee. I was a member of it then. I was not a member of it
when it was kicked out of the CIO. I am sorry if my answer was mis-
interpreted.
Senator Jackson. Did you leave the union ? Did you resign from
it?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir ; I left it.
Senator Jackson. Why did you resign from it?
Mr. McGee. When I left Federal.
Senator Jackson. Because of the termination of your employment?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. Wliy did you leave Federal Telecommunications
Laboratory ?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 387
Mr. McGee. I would like to say that my clearance was removed,
after I had been working there for 3l^ years, and I was never given
any satisfactory explanation of why it had been removed. I do have
an opinion on the subject, if you would care to hear it.
Senator Jackson. In your opinion, what was the reason for your
termination of your clearance ?
Mr. McGee. This had been given to me by a member of the person-
nel department at Federal. The statement was that they had a great
deal of trouble in their department because it was believed that I had
been sent in by the CIO to organize the plant.
Senator Jackson. Did they ask you at the time whether you were
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. McGee. Wlien I left?
Senator Jackson. No: at the time when your security clearance
was terminated.
Mr. McGee. No.
Senator Jackson. You were not interrogated in connection with
the removal of your security clearance ?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
Senator Jackson. \Miat reason did they give you for the termina-
tion oi your security clearance ?
Mr. McGee. None, sir.
Senator Jackson. Did you ask?
Mr. McGee. I was read, I believe, three communications from
various Government departments saying that my clearance had been
removed, and please separate me from contact with classified material
in their departments. That was as well as I can remember the com-
plete statement that I got.
Senator Jackson. Did you inquire as to the reason why the termi-
nation had been made ?
Mr. McGee. I inquired of the people who read it to me and they
said that is all they knew about it, what was in the document that
they read to me.
Senator Jackson. Did you attempt to pursue the matter any
further ?
Mr. McGee. I left the matter entirely in the hands of the union,
and since I had decided not to move to Nutley, N. J., with the labora-
tories in any case, I didn't pursue it at any great length.
Senator Jackson. Mr. McGee, at the time you were terminated,
were you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. J^IcGee. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. ISIcGee, you said that there was no espionage
that you Imew of at Federal Telecommunications ?
Mr. McGee. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You said that you also knew Harry Flyman?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know Harry Hyman as an espionage agent
at Federal Telecommunications Laboratory?
Mr. McGee. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You refused to answer that question a while back
when it was asked you whether you know Harry Hyman was an
espionage agent.
388 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. McGee. I am answering it now. If I do so before I may
have
Mr. Kennedy. Did Harry Hyman ever ask you for any material
on which you were working that he needed information on ?
Mr. McGee. Well, let me say that I don't recall any such incidents
specifically, but let me say that it is entirely possible that he may have
been working on some material which I had designed since I quite
often sent material to the shop where he was employed, and it may
have been given to him, and he may have asked me a question about
it. Also, Mr. Hyman had a pass which enabled him to come to my
office and quite often he did so. He usually wanted to ask me about
some union matter, and I may say that my desk was usually covered
with classified material of one sort or another.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you think while you were working at Federal
Telecommunications Laboratory that you were a member of a group
whose purpose was not inimical to the best interests of the country ?
Mr. McGee. Sir, I am not sure I understand that question.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you feel that the whole time that you were work-
ing at Federal Telecommunications Laboratory that you were working
in the best interests of the United States ? ,
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you Avere never requested by any member of the
Communist Party to turn over material which you felt would be harm-
ful if it got into the hands of a foreign government ?
Mr. McGee. I have never been asked in my recollection by anybody
whatsoever to turn over classified material to anyone not employed at
Federal.
Senator Jackson. Anyone not authorized to receive it?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir, not authorized to receive it.
Senator Jackson. Have you ever worked for the Federal Govern-
ment ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. Wliat period ?
Mr. McGee. Just prior to my employment at Federal. I am sorry,
just prior to my employment at Kollsman, which was about 3 months
total.
Senator Jackson. Where and when ?
Mr. McGee. I worked as a civilian employee of the Signal Corps.
Senator Jackson. Where abouts ?
Mr. McGee. Well, I went through a radar school at Lexington, Ky.,
Lexington Signal Depot.
Senator Jackson. What year was this, and what time ?
Mr. McGee. Let me refer to my notes.
Senator Jackson. Approximately.
Mr. McGee. I am trying to give you the most accurate information
I can. From about December 1942 to approximately January 1943.
Senator Jackson. What was that again ?
Mr. McGee. From December 1942 to January 1943, I believe I was
on their payroll.
Senator Jackson. You worked about 3 months ?
Mr. McGee. No, sir ; this was about a little over a year.
Senator Jackson. You worked
Mr. McGee. Kollsman, about 3 months.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 389
Senator Jackson. You worked for the Federal Government how
long ?
Mr. McGee. a little over a year.
Senator Jackson, Were you given a security clearance ?
Mr. McGee. I assume that I was, since all of the radar work was
classified material. I must have had clearance.
Senator Jackson. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
that time ?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that on the ground of the fifth
amendment.
Senator Jackson. Did you during that period of employment turn
over to anyone not authorized to receive the same any kind of clas-
sified material?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
Senator Jackson. Have you ever in your lifetime to your knowl-
edge ever turned over any classified material to anyone not authorized
to receive the same ?
Mr, McGee. So far as I know ; no, sir.
Senator Jackson. And you understand by classified material we
refer to material
Mr. McGee. I understand what classified material is.
Senator Jackson. You have a full understanding of that?
Mr. McGee. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever do anything contrary to the laws of
the United States while you were working at the Federal Telecom-
munications Laboratory ?
Mr. McGee. That covers an awful lot of territory.
Mr. Kennedy. The question stands.
Senator Jackson. To the best of your knowledge.
(The chairman entered the room.)
Mr. McGee. In view of the breadth of that question I will refuse
to answer under the fifth amendment.
Senator Jackson. Do you recall of ever having done anything, either
at Federal Telecommunications Laboratory or in any of your pre-
vious employment, that would be detrimental to the national security
and interests of the United States ?
Mr. McGee. Well, that is a very
Senator Jackson. In favor of a foreign power.
Mr. McGee. That is a very broad statement. I wish to call atten-
tion to the fact that I have already as clearly as I could defined
espionage and said that I had no knowledge of it whatsoever. I would
like to stand on that answer, sir.
Senator Jackson. Have you given any material to an agent of a
foreign power?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
Senator Jackson. Of any kind ?
Mr. McGee. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. CoHN. I have some questions, if I may.
The Chairman. Mr. Cohn, you may proceed.
Mr. Cohn. You say you never gave any of this classified material
to any unauthorized person, is that right ?
Mr. McGee. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. That sounds very good. Let me come to this. You say
on the other hand that Harry Hyman would walk into your office
390 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
when you had your desk spread, I think that was your term, with
classified material, is that right?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. At that time was Harry Hyman a dedicated Communist
organizer ?
Sir. McGee. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of the fifth
amendment. However, I would like to say simply in relation to that,
that Mr. Hyman had a pass which implied clearance to come to my
office.
The Chairman. May I interrupt you ? Did you know or have any
reason to believe that Hyman was an espionage agent at that time ?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know that he was an espionage agent at
that time?
Mr. McGee. I know that this committee has said so, sir.
The Chairman. That does not answer the question.
Mr. McGee. I do not know.
The Chairman. Do you have any reason to believe now that he
was an espionage agent?
Mr. McGee. Only what this committee has said.
The Chairman. Outside of that, you have received no information
that he was an espionage agent?
Mr. McGee. I have no information about any espionage agents
whatsoever.
The Chairman. Do you know he was an organizer for the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. McGee. Fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, what I was trying to develop is this:
You made a point here in answering questions of saying that you never
gave any of this material to unauthorized persons and that sounds
very good from a security standpoint.
Mr. McGee. I think I defined specifically what an authorized per-
son was, and w^hat an unauthorized person was.
Mr. CoHN. Your point is that Mr. Hyman, you conceded, came into
your office when your desk was spread out with classified material, and
he certainly had access to it.
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir, and he had a pass to come there.
Mr. CoHN. Your statement is that it is not j^our fault because he
had a pass.
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. I assume you will agree with me that does not alter the
fact that Mr. Hyman might have been a Communist Party organizer
and dedicated to the overthrow of this Government at that time
whether he had an official pass or not. Was he such an organizer at
that time?
Mr. McGee. Organizer of what?
Mr. CoHN. An organizer of the Communist Party teaching the over-
throw of this Government at cell meetings at which you were present ?
Mr. McGee. Fifth amendment.
Mr. CoHN. Fifth amendment; is that right?
Mr. McGee. Yes.
The Chairman. At the time you say you had your desk littered
with classified material, were you then a member of the Communist
conspiracy ?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 391
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Were you the educational director of the Com-
munist conspiracy at the time that you say you had your desk littered
with classified material?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that under the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. On the grounds of self-incrimination ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. Did you have your desk littered with classified material
during the day and at night when you were teaching from State and
Revolution, by Lenin, to a Communist cell ?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. CoHN. As late as the year 1952. were you going around solicit-
ing petitions for the Peoples Eights Party which was a Communist
Party at that time in New York City ?
Mr. McGee. Soliciting?
Mr. CoHN. I withdraw that. Did you sign petitions pledging sup-
port to the Peoples Rights Party and to Simon W. Gerson, a leader
of the Communist Party? I am talking about the year 1952.
Mr. McGee. Fifth amendment.
Mr. CoHN. Yes ; fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Let me ask you a question. You have been invok-
ing the fifth amendment. You understand you cannot invoke the fifth
amendment on self-incrimination in case of perjury. You can only
invoke that if you feel that a truthful answer to the questions might
tend to incriminate you.
Is it your testimony that you feel that a truthful answer to the
questions asked might tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The answer is "Yes"?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I did not hear you.
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you leave your desk littered with classified
material ?
Mr. McGee. What do you mean, leave it ?
Mr. Kennedy. At the end of the day was there classified material
left on the top of your desk ?
Mr. McGee. I don't think so.
Mr. Kennedy. Were there any rules about putting classified mate-
rial away?
Mr. McGee. The place was continually guarded day and night.
Mr. Kennedy. That is not the answer.
Mr. McGee. My desk included a workbench where material was that
was never put away.
Mr. Kennedy. You left classified material on the top of your desk ?
Mr. McGee. Units of electronic nature, they were left in a locked
laboratory. Papers were never left on my desk at night.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliy did Mr. Hyman have a key to your office ?
Mr. McGee. He did not have a key, sir. There was no particular
key to the door. The room was occupied by a number of engineers,
392 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
3 or 4, and in the day we would be getting out papers, working on
them, and maybe run out of the Laboratory to take a measurement or
so and come back in and work some more on papers. That was the
practice of all the engineers in the department and in the other depart-
ments, too, as I understand it.
Mr. Kennedy. The reason was that you felt that everybody had
clearance by the FBI ?
Mr. McGee. Not that I felt, they did have clearance, or they were
not in there.
Mr. Kennedy. Therefore, they were good security risks ?
Mr. McGee. The Government agency that cleared them said that
they were. I don't know. I was not hired as a security agent.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you feel you were a good security risk ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. Mr. McGee, you have so far answered all ques-
tions relating to espionage, sabotage, and national security. Would
you be willing to cooperate with the FBI in connection with any pos-
sible case they may have against anyone at the laboratory while you
were there in trying to bring about an enforcement of the laws in the
interests of the security of this country ?
Mr. McGee, Any information which I may unwittingly have con-
cerning the transmission of documents of confidential nature from
this country to any other foreign power I think I would be willing to
answer specific questions concerning the matter.
Senator Jackson. Let me ask you this : Would you be willing to give
to the FBI any information that you may have that would help our
Government in protecting its security, whether it involves the trans-
mission of such information directly to a foreign agent or to some
intermediary ? Would you be willing to do that ?
Mr. McGee. I believe I would, sir ; yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. Would you cooperate in any way you can to
eliminate any possible espionage, sabotage, or anything affecting the
national security during the time you have been employed on anything
relating to classified material?
Mr. McGee. Let me state that I don't know that I have any such
information.
Senator Jackson. But if they asked you or interrogated you?
Mr. McGee. As long as it is a direct
The Chairman. May I interrupt?
Senator Jackson. Mr. Chairman, let me finish this.
The Chairman. I did not hear the testimony. Will the reporter
read the last couple of questions and answers ?
(The reporter read a portion of the record as follows:)
Secator Jackson. Let me ask you this : Would you be willing to give to the
FBI any information that you may have that vpould help our Government in pro-
tecting its security whether it involves the transmission of such information
directly to a foreign agent or to some intermediary? Would you be willing to do
that?
Mr. McGee. I believe I would, sir ; yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. Would you cooperate in any way you can to eliminate any
possible espionage, sabotage or anything alfecting tlie national security during
the time you have been employed on anything relating to classified material?
Mr. McGee. Let me state that I don't know that I have any such information.
Senator Jackson. But if they asked you or interrogated you?
Mr. McGee. As long as it is a direct
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 393
Senator Jackson. But if .you have any such information, to your
truthful knowledge, would you give it ?
Mr. McGee. Yes.
Senator Jackson. I think that is very important, and I think as
a citizen you should voluntarily after this meeting go to the FBI and
make available any information that you might have and let them
know that you are willing to give to them any information along the
lines that I have raised here.
Mr. MoGee. I really don't think I have any information, sir. But
I am certain they have representatives here. I have never refused to
talk to the FBI yet.
Senator Jackson. But suppose you voluntarily — I suggest it to
you as a citizen, in view of the grave threat to our security — I suggest,
and I hope you will agree to it, that you voluntarily go to the FBI
and give them any information you might have as a citizen to protect
the security of this country. I hope you will do that. Do you not think
you can do that?
Mr. McGee. I really don't think I have any such information. I
wouldn't know what to say.
Senator Jackson. I know, but suppose you present yourself to them
and maybe they can ask some questions that you might be helpful to
the FBI in doing the job that has been assigned to them by our Gov-
ernment.
Mr. McGee. Well, sir, I am certain that the FBI knows where I
am. As I say, I have been asked questions by the FBI previously, and
I have given them as much information as I have.
Senator Jackson. Do you not feel that sometimes you ought to do
these things voluntarily as a citizen? At least you are not going to
hurt yourself any by making a voluntary appearance.
Mr. McGee. I really don't know what I talked to them about, but I
am willing to answer any questions they have.
Senator Jackson. I suggest we turn this record over to the FBI.
The Chairman. You say you gave the FBI as much information as
you have. Did I understand that answer ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, when they questioned me.
The Chairman. Did they ask whether you were the educational
director for the Communist Party, and did you tell them whether
or not you were ?
Mr. McGee. They asked me no such question, sir.
The Chairman. Did they ask you for the names of the members of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. McGee. They asked me no such question.
The Chairman. Wliat did they ask you, then?
Mr. McGee. This was a long, long time ago, sir.
The Chairman. How long ago ?
Mr. McGee. I think somewhere around the beginning of 1942 or
1943.
The Chairman. You have just told us you gave the FBI all the
information you had. We know you refused to give the FBI any
information as to the Communist conspiracy, and you are under oath.
1 want to ask you now, have you during the past 10 years ever given
the FBI any information about
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
394 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESFIONAGE
The Chairman. About your fellow members of the Communist
Party?
Mr. McGee. I don't recall that I have ever been asked any questions
by them in the last 10 years.
The Chairman. Did you ever give them any information?
Mr. McGee. No.
The Chairman. You have not?
Mr. McGee. Not in the last 10 years that I know of.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this. You have refused to tell this
committee about your activities in the Communist Party. Do I under-
stand that if we call an FBI man down here today that you will give
that FBI man all the information that you have about the Communist
conspiracy ?
Mr. McGee. That was not the question that was asked me previ-
ously.
The Chairman. It is the question now. Will you or will you not?
Mr. McGee. I think I am going to refuse to answer that under the
fifth amendment, sir.
The Chairman. You cannot refuse to answer whether or not you
would give them information. It does not deal with information. I
merely ask you the question whether or not if we refer over to the
Bureau, you will give them any information which you may have
about the Communist conspiracy. You are ordered to answer that
question.
(Witness consults his counsel.)
Mr. McGee. Well, sir, I will give the FBI any information which
I may have with regard to espionage or sabotage or any other specific
acts. I refuse to cooperate with them in witch hunting.
The Chairman. You call digging out members of the Communist
conspiracy witch hunting?
Mr. McGee. I don't know what the Communist conspiracy is, sir.
The Chairman. You don't?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
The Chairman. Look at the petition in front of you. Did you sign
that ?
While your counsel is looking at it, were you not educational direc-
tor of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. McGee. This seems to be a petition for someone to run for office
in New York City.
The Chairman. For who to run ? Simon Gerson, is it not ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Was he a member of the Communist conspiracy
at that time when you pledged him your support?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. McGee. Fifth amendment.
^ The Chairman. Did someone in the Communist Party ask you to
sign that?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer under the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Tlie Chairman. On the grounds of self-incrimination ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 395
Tlie Chairman. Wlien you were educational director for the Com-
munist Party, did you teach the necessity of the overthrow of the
Government by force and violence ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. McGee. The question contains an assumption, sir.
The Chaieman. If you did not, just say so.
Mr. McGee. I don't know how I can answer that without telling
you that I was at some time a member of the Communist Party.
The Chairman. Were you educational director ?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that under the grounds of the fifth
amendment to the Constitution.
The Chairman. You told us under oath here a few minutes ago that
you gave the FBI as much information as you had.
Mr. McGee. At the time that they asked me ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. When did you give that information ?
Mr. MgGee. Again, as I recall, it was some time in 1942 or 1943.
The Chairman. At that time you told them you were not a member
of the Communist Party ; did you not ?
Mr. McGee. I don't recall whether I was asked that question, sir.
The Chairman. AVhat questions were you asked ?
Mr. McGee. I don't recall.
The Chairman. You have no idea ?
Mr. McGee. Look, it is a long time. I don't remember. Certainly
they have a record of it and you can obtain it.
TThe Chairman. You told us very positively you gave them as much
information as you had. You told us that under oath. You must re-
call something about what information you gave them. No. 1, did you
tell them you were a Communist at that time ?
Mr. McGee. I don't recall.
The Chairman. Were you a Communist at that time ?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that under the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. How well did you know Harry Hyman ?
Mr. McGee. I met him a number of times at union meetings and
union committee meetings, and at the Federal Laboratories.
The Chairman. Did you visit him in his home ?
Mr. McGee. I believe I have, sir, once or twice.
The Chairman. Did you attend Communist cell meetings in his
home?
Mr, ISIcGee. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. At his home did you discuss classified material
from Telecommunications?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
The Chairman. Never.
Mr. McGee. Never.
The Chairman. Did you ever hear classified material discussed at
Communist Party meetings ?
Mr. McGee. I never heard classified material discussed at any place
other than in Federal and when I was working for the Government
in the proper places.
The Chairman. Did you ever discuss classified material with mem-
bers of the Communist Party ?
396 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. McGee. If these people had been cleared to ^York with me I
may have.
The Chaiem.\n. In other words, you may have discussed it with
Communists who were cleared, is that the answer ?
Mr. McGek. I may have ; yes, sir.
The Chairini AN, With cleared Communists. You say that the place
was guarded day and night ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Could you tell us whether it was guarded to keep
the Communists in or keep them out, if you know. You were
educational director of the Connnanist Party at the time. Harry Hy-
man was an espionage agent at the time. You. say he had free access
to your office. But the place was carefully guarded. Can you tell
what they were guarding against or who they were guarding?
Mr. JMcGee. I assume that they were there for the pui'pose of pro-
tecting the information which was lying about the place from falling
into the hands of some espionage agent.
The Chairman. Do you think they were trying to keep it away
from the Communists?
Mr. McGee. I don't know, sir.
The Chairman. You were there. Do you think there was any at-
tempt to keep the information away from the Connnunists?
Mr. McGee. I really don't know.
The Chairman. You do not have any idea ?
Mr. McGee. I don't know whether the Government agencies that
cleared these people knew they were Connnunists or espionage agents
or what, but I assume that their duty was to make sure that this in-
formation did not fall into improper hands.
The Chairman. Would you consider Communist hands improper
hands ?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that, sir, under the grounds of the
fiftli amendment.
The Chairman. You cannot refuse to answer the question on the
grounds of self-incrimination. You might get yourself in dutch with
the Communist Party, but not otherwise. You are ordered to answer
that question.
Mr. McGee. I still refuse, sir.
The Chairman, Were you ever asked by any security officer of
Telecommunications whether or not you were a Commmiist?
Mr. McGee. I don't recall ever being interviewed by a security
officer.
The Chairman. By any official of Telecommunications?
Mr. McGee. Well the personal department did have a questionnaire
to be filled out, and I guess it had such a question on it ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. On that questionnaire did you say you were or were
not a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer that. That is a
matter of record.
Mr. McGee. I still refuse, sir.
The Chairman. If the Communist Party were to order you to obtain
secret material for the Communist Party, would you refuse to obey
that order?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 397
Mr. McGee. I have answered that question, sir. The answer was
"No."
The Chairman. You would not refuse or you would refuse?
Mr. McGee. I would refuse.
The Chairman. You would refuse ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever refused to obey any order of the
Communist Party up to this time ?
Mr. McGee. That question assumes that the Communist Party gives
me orders, and therefore I refuse to answer under the grounds of the
fifth amendment to the Constitution.
The Chairman. Does the Communist Party give you orders ?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that.
The Chairman. You refuse to tell us whether or not you ever dis-
obeyed an order of the Communist Party ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. On the ground that the answer might tend to in-
criminate you ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. Has the Communist Party ever given you any
orders to engage in espionage, sabotage, or anything affecting the
national security while you worked on these classified projects'^
Mr. McGee. To the best of my knowledge and recollection no one
has ever given me any such orders.
Senator Jackson. Does that include the Communist Party?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. That includes the Communist Party?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. May I say that you certainly have a right to ask any
questions you care to, but it seems so obvious when his desk is stacked
with classified material up to secret, and Harry Hyman, member of
the Communist conspiracy, has free access to it, and this individual,
an educational director of the Communist Party, can take it out any
time he wants to, nothing can more affect the security of the United
States than that.
Senator Jackson. When he answers a question, it does not mean I
agree with his answer. He is here under oath and if he says that they
have never ordered him to give any information relating to sabotage,
espionage, and anything on classified material, I think he is placing
himself in jeopardy on the basis of perjury.
Mr. McGee, I want to make this observation, and that is that I hope
you will go all the way in making a complete break with the people
that you have been with in the past. You have stated to the committee
that you have not engaged in sabotage, or espionage, or anything
adverse to the national security of this country. You have indicated
that you would give any information that you might have on those
subjects to the FBI, is that right ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. Why can you not tell the committee today wheth-
er you are a member of the Communist Party ? You have invoked the
fifth amendment in the past, but can you not tell the committee today?
Mr. McGee. I am afraid I am going to have to refuse to answer
that, sir.
398 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Senator Jackson. You are an intelligent and well-educated man.
You must be aware of the international situation today, and that the
Communist movement everywhere is in the furtherance of the Soviet
foreign policy, which is to dominate the world, are you not?
Mr. McGee. I read the newspapers. I see it said there, yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. Can there be much question but that the chief
aim of the foreign policy of the Soviet Union is to dominate the free
people ?
Mr. McGee. I don't know.
Senator Jackson. I laiow, but you have watched world events, you
have watched one country after another being gobbled up.
Mr. McGee. I really don't know what Soviet foreign policy is. I
don't know if anyone in this country does.
Senator Jackson. Let me ask you this : Are you not aware of the
fact that the Communist Party is not a local radical movement, but it
is a part of an international organization under the control of the
Cominf orm, and that it is directed by the Soviet Union ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. ]\IcGee. I don't know.
Senator Jackson. You do not know. If you join an organization,
do you not try to find out what the charter stands for ?
Mr. INIcGee. I have never said I joined it.
Senator Jackson. I think it is pretty apparent here, Mr. McGee,
that you have been a member of the Communist Party for quite some
time. I am trying to encourage you as one citizen here sitting up on
this end of the committee hearing for you to make a break, and I think
if this hearing has accomplished nothing else, if you will be willing
to cooperate and try to make this country and the free world a little
more secure, you might accomplish something.
The Chairman. Let me say that this man is a paid organizer of
the Communist Party today. Any hope you have that he is going
to suddenly go and give the FBI information about his conspiracy is
certainly a very forlorn hope. As of today he is a paid organizer for
the Communist conspiracy. Is that not right?
Mr. McGee. I would like for you to some out from behind con-
gressional immunity and prove that.
Tlie Chairman. Are you ? Are you a paid organizer for the Com-
munist Party today ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
The Chairman. If you are not, here is your chance to say so.
Mr. McGee. The answer to that question is no.
The Chairman. Are you being paid by the Communist Party as of
today ?
]Mr. McGee. No, sir.
Tlie Chairman. Have you been paid during the last week?
]Mr. McGee. No, sir
The Chairman. During the last month?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever been a paid organizer for the Com-
munist Party ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
The Chairman. If you have not, just say no.
Mr. McGee. I don't like the direction that this question is going.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 399
The Chairman. I know you don't. Answer the question.
Mr. McGee. Just exactly what is that question again ?
The Chairman. The reporter will read it to you.
(The reporter read the question as follows:)
The Chairman. Have you ever been a paid organizer for tlie Commnnist
Party?
The Chairman. May I say we give counsel the right to consult with
a witness any time there is a need. It is done so you can advise him as
to his legal rights. I do not like to have you sit there and coach the
witness what he should say. You are there for the purpose of ad-
vising him on his legal rights. I might say it is a right that the wit-
ness does not have in any court of law or before a grand jury, so
please do not abuse it by trying to tell him what to say.
Mr. McGee. He was giving me advice, sir.
The Chairman. What is your answer to that question ?
Mr. McGee. On advice of counsel, I am going to refuse to answer
that question on the grounds of the fifth amendment to the Constitu-
tion.
The Chairman. Do you feel that your answer might tend to in-
criminate you?
Mr. McGee. It might in some way tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You told me you would like to have me prove you
were an organizer.
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. When you refuse to answer, and tell us that you
feel a truthful answer — wait a minute, Mr. Counsel — would tend to
incriminate you, that is saying you were an organizer. If you were
not, you merely say "No, I was never an organizer of the Communist
Party."
I will again give you an opportunity to clear vourself of that, if you
have not been an organizer. The question is. Have you been an
organizer for the Communist Party?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. McGee. Well, sir, the question which you asked me originally
and I challenged you to prove or come out from behind congressional
immunity and make the statement was that I am a paid organizer
of the Communist Party today. I answered that question "No," and
you asked last week, and so forth, and I said "No."
The Chairman. Have you been an organizer for the Communist
Party ?
Mr. McGee. On that question I am going to refuse to answer your
question on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Do you feel that a truthful answer might tend to
incriminate you ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you solicited people in Telecommunications
and asked them to join the Communist Party?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that question on the ground of the
fifth amendment to the Constitution.
The Chairman. Were you ever on the payroll of the Communist
Party?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
400 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer on the ground of the fifth amend-
ment.
The Chairman. Look, Mister, you have challenged us to prove that
you are a paid organizer as of today. We know you have been a
paid functionary of the Communist Party, that you are educational
director, that you have tried to recruit people into the party ; if you
broke at some time, if you changed your mind 6 months or a year
ago, I would like to know that. You see, I cannot follow you from
day to day. When we say you are a paid functionary as of today,
in our book that means that all the information shows that you have
been, no indication you have ever reformed or ever changed your
mind. If you have suddenly reformed, I would like to know about
that.
In that connection, let me ask you a question. Are you a Communist
today ?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that question, sir.
The Chairman. In answering Senator Jackson's question I got the
impression that you were attempting to create the impression that you
would cooperate with the FBI. Let me ask you this: Will you be
willing to give the FBI any information which you might have about
the Communist Party and membership in it.
Mr. McGee. I think I stated before, sir, that I was unwilling to
cooperate in witch hunting.
The Chairman. I am not talking about witches. I am talking
about members of the Communist conspiracy.
Mr. McGee. Conspiracy to do what?
The Chairman. If you consider hunting Communists hunting
witches, all right. You can call them witches if you like. The ques-
tion is. Will you give the FBI any information that you may have
about members of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. McGee. I think I have answered that, sir.
The Chairman. The answer is "Yes" or "No"? What is the an-
swer?
Mr. McGee. Wliat is the exact question ?
The Chairman. I will repeat it for you. Are you willing today to
give the FBI any information which you might have about member-
ship in the Communist Party on the part of any individuals, especially
those working in Government ?
Mr. McGee. Well, I haven't been in contact with anybody in Gov-
ernment for so long that I am quite certain that any information I
have would not be of any value.
The Chairman. Answer the question.
Mr. McGee. I refuse to engage in witch hunting, sir.
The Chairman. All right. Answer the question.
Mr. McGee. What question ?
The Chairman. The question that was just asked.
Mr. McGee. Will I give information concerning Communist Party
membership to the FBI ? No, sir.
The Chairman. You will not ?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
The Chairman. I knew you were trying to create the impression in
answer to Senator Jackson's questions that you would, and I think
Senator Jackson asked very good questions along that line.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 401
Mr. McGee. Let me repeat what I said to Senator Jackson.
The Chairman. There is no question about it. As of today, is this
correct, No. 1, you are a member of the Communist conspiracy ; No. 2,
you will not give any information about membership in that con-
spiracy to any Government agency ? Is that a fair recap of your posi-
tion?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
The Chairman. All right. Wlierein have I stated your position
incorrectly ?
Mr. McGee. I have agreed to ";ive any information which I may
have regarding espionage and sabotage to anybody that desires it.
Mr. Kennedy. You said that you would give information on espio-
nage and sabotage to the FBI.
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Will you give the information to the FBI of the
names of the individuals who you know advocate the forceful over-
throw of the Government ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. McGee. I have to refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you believe that advocating the forceful over-
throw of the Government of the United States can be espionage or
sabotage ?
Mr. McGee. I don't know the exact meaning of those words. It
might possibly be.
Mr. Kennedy. You said that you were going to turn over to the
FBI any information that they wanted to know on espionage and
sabotage.
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
The Chairman. Mr. Kennedy, I would be glad to order the witness
to answer your question if you care to, because he has waived any fifth
amendment privileges on that question.
Mr. McGee. I don't know that this is espionage or sabotage. I
think those are legally defined terms. Legally defined terms of espio-
nage, transmission of classified information to a foreign power, or
sabotage, certainly I am willing to give these things.
The Chairman. ISIr. Kennedy has asked you a very simple ques-
tion. He asked you whether or not you would be willing to give the
FBI the names of any individuals who were known to you to advocate
the overthrow of this Government by force and violence. You have
refused to answer that question. You are now ordered to answer that
question.
Senator Jackson. For your information, too, my question was pretty
broad previously. It not only involved sabotage and espionage, but
I said also the national security of the country. So the question put
to you and to which you responded in the aimrmative embraced not
only your willingness to give information on sabotage, espionage, but
also, I think the record will disclose, anything affecting the national
security of the country.
Mr. McGee. I don't know everything that might possibly affect the
national security of the country.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. McGee, you agreed that advocating the forceful
overthrow of the Government affects the national security of the
Government.
402 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
(Witness consulted his attorney.)
Mr. McGee. I am going to refuse to answer that question on tlie
grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. McGee, you said that you did not know about
any espionage that has been committed in this country; is that right?
Mr. McGee. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And you do not know anything about any sabotage?
Mr. McGee. I don't knowingly know it. I may have information,
but I don't know anything or recall anything.
Mr. Kennedy. You will not tell the FBI any information you have
about anyone advocating the forceful overthrow of the Government;
is that right ?
Mr. McGee. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Then do you think it is going to a fruitful dis-
cussion between you and the FBI ?
Mr. McGee. I told you I had no idea
Mr. Kennedy. Excuse me.
Mr. McGee. I think I told the other Senator that I did not have
knowingly any such information. I didn't know what I would talk
to them about. I think I indicated then I didn't think it would be
very fruitful.
Mr. Kennedy. What if an FBI agent feels that he has some in-
formation about somebody advocating the forceful overthrow of the
Government and feels that is espionage ; will you answer his questions
about that individual?
Mr. McGee. I don't think legally that is espionage.
Mr. Kennedy. You are going to have the definition. You are going
to make your own definition of it.
Mr. McGee. I am taking advice from my lawyer on this.
Mr. Kennedy. That is not the answer, Mr. McGee. You have to
give your own answer and not the lawyer's.
Mr. McGee. Wlien it comes to legal definitions, I have to defer to
my lawyer. I don't know the legal definitions. My lawyer probably
does.
The Chairman. I think it is very clear from what he says that
he says he does not knowingly know about espionage and sabotage.
What that means I do not know. He can give the FBI information
which he does not have.
Mr. McGee. You asked me for instance
The Chairman. Let me finish my question. But you will not give
the FBI or anyone else any information about anyone whom you know
who advocates the overthrow of this Government by force and violence.
Mr. McGee. Can I make a statement with regard to that, sir? I
think anybody that advocates the overthrow of the United States
Governm.ent by force and violence belongs in a booby hatch.
Senator Jackson. How should you do it? In a subtle subversive
way?
Mr. McGee. There are a few things about the Constitution of the
United States which I have advocated need to be changed. For in-
stance, I believe the President should be elected by direct popular
vote. There is certainly provision in the Constitution for making
these changes.
Mr. Kennedy. I just have a couple of more questions.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 403
Mr. McGee. It doesn't have to be done by bloody revolution.
Senator Jackson. You have read the manifesto, have you, the
Communist Manifesto ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. McGee. I am going to plead the fifth amendment on that, sir.
Senator Jackson. A lot of people may have read the Communist
Manifesto. Have you read any of Karl Marx's teachings, Das
Kapital ?
Mr. McGee, I started to once.
Senator Jackson. Did you finish it ?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
Senator Jackson. What discouraged you from finishing it ?
Mr. McGee. Three very large and very difficult volumes of that
work, sir.
Senator Jackson. Have you read anything on dialectical mate-
rialism ?
Mr. McGee. I think I am going to refuse to answer that question,
sir.
Senator Jackson. You do not mind commenting on Das Kapital,
but you would rather not say what you got out of dialectical
materialism ?
Mr. McGee. I don't know. I think that is a kind of broad question.
I don't know exactly what you mean by dialectical materialism.
Senator Jackson. You know what the teachings of the Communist
Party are?
Mr. McGee. Do I?
Senator Jackson. I have asked the question.
Mr. McGee. Do 1?
Senator Jackson. Yes.
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that question, sir.
Senator Jackson. Have you read any of Lenin's teachings?
Mr. McGee. Fifth amendment.
The Chairman. You cannot invoke the fifth amendment on whether
you read Lenin. You can invoke the fifth amendment whether you
taught Marxism and Leninism. There is no crime to read Das Kapi-
tal, Red Leninism, or anything else you want to read. The question
is where or not you have taught the Marx-Lenin line. So you will
be ordered to answer Senator Jackson's question.
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. McGee. Well, sir, I heard you have some very
The Chairman. Just a minute. I think counsel makes a point.
In view of the fact that you refuse to answer the question if you read
these works in connection with a Communist training course, you
would be entitled to refuse to answer.
Mr. McGee. My grounds for refusing to answer are slightly dif-
ferent, sir. With your permission I would like to state them.
The Chairman. You may state them.
Mr. McGee. My lawyer informs me you have some peculiar ideas
of what constitutes a waiver of privilege. I do not wish to waive my
privileges to use the fifth amendment, and therefore I am going to have
to refuse to answer this question.
The Chairman. If Senator Jackson wants the question answered,
I will order it answered. The reading of those works does not in-
criminate you.
404 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
I may say I have read them myself very carefully.
Mr. McGee. Every time I take tlie fifth amendment, you conclude
that the answer is yes, anyhow, so I don't know
Senator Jackson. Independent of any teaching, have you read any
of the books or works that I referred to previously ? I tliinli: you can
answer that.
Mr. McGee. I have read a very large number of books in my life-
time, and some of them may have been books which Senator McCarthy
would call Communist.
Senator Jackson. Have you read Lenin's works ?
Mr. McGee. I may have read something that he has written at
some time or other.
Senator Jackson. You know in his teachings he advocates the force-
ful overthrow of the government as the main overall objective of the
Communist Party throughout the world ; is that not right ? Referring
now to what he says in his works. I am not asking you as yet for
your opinion. I am asking you to state whether or not that is in
his works, his teachings.
Mr. ]\IcGee. I don't consider myself to be an expert on the subject.
Senator Jackson. I did not ask you that. You have read his works.
Is it not a fact that in his teachings he advocated as the ultimate ob-
jective of the Communist Party the forceful overthrow of the govern-
ment or the governments of the world ? I am not asldng your opinion.
I am asking you if you have read them and I gather that you have.
Mr. McGee. I don't know. My experience with this stuff is that
different people reading the same thing come to different conclusions.
For example, I would like to
Senator Jackson. Wait a minute. The language in his works
I think is not what you call equivocal or ambiguous. I think it is
pretty direct.
Mr. McGee. "Wliich language is that sir, Russian, German, French,
what?
Senator Jackson. You know that Lenin's teachings are in the
English language as many others; is that not right?
]\Ir. McGee. Which work are are you referring to, sir?
Senator Jackson. I am talking about all of his works. Have you
read State and Revolution?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that, sir.
Senator Jackson. Is it not a matter of fact that you did teach
State and Revolution at one time?
Mr. McGee. I still refuse to answer.
Senator Jackson, You can answer these questions whether you in
fact have read it. I think you must have been on notice that the Com-
munist Party historically and right on down to date, despite the many
variations in temporary policy, their overall objective has been a
continuous one, the ultimate and violent overthrow of governments
everywhere ; is that not right ?
Mr. McGee, Sir, could I give you some information which you
possibly don't have?
Senator Jackson. There is a lot of information I do not have.
Mr. McGee. Concerning this very subject.
Senator Jackson. I think you can just answer the question. We
will go on forever if you are going to review one of your lectures.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 405
Mr. McGee. I will tell you there are people who have read these
same works and come to violent disagreement with each other.
Senator Jackson. Are you a philosophical Communist, if there is
such? • • 1
Mr. McGee. I don't know what a philosophical Communist is, but
I am still going to refuse to answer that, sir.
Senator Jackson. You are not a violent Communist; is that it?
Mr. McGee. If you mean do I advocate the violent overthrow^ of
the United States Government, the answer to that is "No ; I don't."
Senator Jackson. Have you ever ?
Mr. McGee. No, sir.
The Chairjvian. Have you ever taught the necessity of the violent
overthrow of the United States Government?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. McGee. No, sir ; I haven't. I don't think I have ever been that
crazy. ^
The Chairman. Did you ever use Lenin's writings. State and Eevo-
lution, as a textbook in any class you ever taught?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that on the gromid of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer that.
Mr. McGee. I still refuse.
The Chairman. Just so you cannot claim ignorance of what tran-
spired, you have stated that you never taught the violent overthrow
of the United States Government. The question now is whether or
not you ever used this work of Lenin which does so advocate, State
and Eevolution, in teaching classes. You have no fifth amendment
as far as this question is concerned. You have waived it with the
answer to the last question.
Mr. McGee. I told you you had some peculiar ideas about waiver
and here you are again.
The Chairman. Do you still refuse to answer ?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. I just wanted to ask you one thing, Mr. McGee. In
some of these ideas you were suggesting before for the revision of the
United States Constitution, would you believe in retaining the fifth
amendment under the revised Constitution ?
Mr. McGee. I believe in retaining the whole Bill of Rights.
Mr. CoHN. Including the fifth amendment.
Mr. McGee. Including the fifth amendment.
The Chaiioian. You are ordered to answer one question asked by
Mr. Kennedy previously, and I believe there was an interruption at
that time. You had stated that you would give to the FI3I any infor-
mation which you had concerning the national security. Mr. Kennedy
then asked you the question whether or not you would give the FBI
any information which you might have with regard to individuals who
advocated the overthrow of this Government by force and violence.
You refused to answer that. You were ordered to answer it. To have
the record clear do you still persist in that refusal ?
Mr. McGee. After due consideration of this, no, I won't give that
answer.
The Chairman. You refuse?
Mr. McGee. No, I am answering the question. The answer is "No."
406 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. That you will not give that information to the
FBI.
Mr. McGeb. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you consider that a threat to the national secu-
rity ? In other words,'do you consider that individuals who advocate
the overthrow of this Government by a bloody revolution would be a
threat to our national security?
Mr. McGee. Well, I don't know whether I have my counsel's ap-
proval on this answer, but I would like to say that I consider all such
people to be insane, and I don't think that they constitute any threat
to this Government at all.
The Chairman. You advocate bringing communism to power by
peaceful means?
Mr. McGee. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. Do you advocate bringing communism to power by
means of a bloody revolution ?
Mr. McGee. No, sir. I do not advocate the overthrow of this Gov-
ernment by force or violence.
The Chairman. Do you advocate its overthrow by peaceful means?
Mr. McGee. I don't know what overthrow constitutes, sir. Maybe
it would be the election of a Democrat to the Presidency. That I do
advocate.
The Chairman. Do you have any brothers or sisters who work in
the Government or in any defense plants?
Mr. McGee. I have no brothers or sisters.
The Chairman. Are you married?
Mr. McGee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Does your wife have any brothers or sisters who
work in either the Government or any defense plants ?
Mr. McGee. Well, she has a brother who is in Detroit. I don't
know what he does, sir. I believe that he is a heating engineer.
The Chairman. You do not know whether he works on defense
work or not?
Mr. McGee. I don't know.
The Chairman. What is his name?
Mr. McGee. Garni Moretti.
The Chairman. Is he a Communist, if you know ?
Mr. McGee. I haven't the slightest idea. I never discussed politics
with him.
The Chairman. Is your wife a member of the Communist Party ?
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
The Chairman. You need not give us any information which you
learned from her-
Mr. McGee. I refuse to give any information about my wife
The Chairman. Please let me finish. You need not give us any
information which you learned from her while no one else was present.
You are entitled to refuse on the ground of the marital privilege. So
when I ask you this question and ask you if you know whether or
not she is a Communist, the information must have been coming to
you while others were present.
Mr. McGee. I am going to refuse to answer that on the ground
of the fifth amendment.
AR]MY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 407
The Chalrman. All right, you may step down.
Mr. McGee. Are you through with me, sir ?
The Chairman. We are through with your testimony; let us put
it that way.
Mr. Gragis, will you resume the stand ?
TESTIMONY OF PETER A. GRAGIS— Resumed
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. Did you engage in any espionage or sabotage
while working on any classified work ?
Mr. Gragis. Senator Jackson, I did not ever take any classified
documents, I didn't take any type of documents whether they were
classified, marked as such or were not. I never took any of those
documents out. I had no remembrance — and if I had a remembrance
I would admit it now — I have no remembrance of anyone whether it
was Hyman, McGee, or anyone else in the cell to which I belonged
Senator Jackson. Just to the best of your knowledge.
Mr. Gragis. That is right. Furthermore, I would like to say I
didn't even see cameras around so that I can say somebody was
doing it.
Senator Jackson. You do not always have to have cameras.
Mr. Gragis. If I had seen a camera around I might have suspected
somebody might have been taking pictures.
Senator Jackson. Let me ask you this simple question. Did you
at any time turn over classified material — do you know what I mean
by classified material ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. Did you ever turn over classified material to any
unauthorized person ?
Mr. Gragis. Well, I have no recollection of it. The way I worked,
I worked on my drawings and submitted them to my supervisor, and
he would take them back. That is the way it went. I didn't take
drawings and give them to anybody else, and I presume he was
authorized.
Senator Jackson. You thought he was authorized ?
Mr. Gragis, Yes.
Senator Jackson. Did you give any classified material to anyone
outside of the plant that you were working with ?
Mr. Gragis. No, sir, that I never did.
Senator Jackson. You were employed up until 1950 ?
Mr. Gragis, That is right, sir.
Senator Jackson. And you were dismissed for what reason ?
Mr. Gragis. My remembrance of that is quite clear, and I also re-
member it was a bit different from the dismissal of Mr. McGee. My
severance came about this way. There were two gentlemen that came
in from the Air Materiel Command at Wright Field, I believe, and
they delivered these papers to me, and they said it was of what they
were supposed to do, to see that I got it. They didn't withhold any
reasons. They came out and stated pointedly that I had been acknowl-
edged as a Communist, and therefore I was to be denied access to any
classified material.
The Chairman. May I interrupt, Senator Jackson. We will have
this witness back Wednesday at 10 : 30 in the morning. The other five
408 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
witnesses who were called for today will return Wednesday morning
at 10 : 30 at which time the public phase of the hearing will be con-
tinued.
Senator Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I have just two more questions I
want to ask. He stepped down before.
The Chairman. He will be back again, because he will identify four
other Communists who are here, including a defense worker. If there
are two questions, go ahead and ask them.
Senator Jackson. This is cross-examination on the questions he
brought out. I just want to ask him whether or not Mr. Hyman or
Mr. McGee to your knowledge ever engaged in espionage, sabotage or
anything inimical to national security ?
Mr. Gragis. To my knowledge, no. Senator Jackson.
Senator Jackson. You have no knowledge?
Mr. Gragis. No, I don't say it couldn't have been possible. It is
possible but to my knowledge, no.
Senator Jackson. Did you ever hear of it in the plant ?
Mr. Gragis. No.
Senator Jackson. Or at Communist meetings ?
Mr. Gragis. No.
Senator Jackson. Was espionage, sabotage or the procurement of
material from the establishments that you worked in discussed?
Mr. Gragis. No.
Senator Jackson. To give it to any unauthorized person ?
Mr. Gragis. No. You must understand our meetings did not come
once a week. They would come once in 3 months or so, but during all
that period of time, no. Wlien I was there nobody ever asked me and I
never heard any talk on it.
The Chairman. In other words, you yourself were not part of an
espionage ring?
Mr. Gragis. That is right.
The Chairman. You were a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Gragis. That is right.
The Chairman. But you were never assigned to any espionage or
sabotage ?
Mr. Gragis. That is right.
The Chairman. Could you shed any light on this ? Harry Hyman
who was working there at the time you were there has been named as
an espionage agent.
Mr. Gragis. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about that ?
Mr. Gragis. In fact, I have a complete report of that committee
hearing right here. I have read it. All that is completely new to
me, and it actually shocks me.
The Chairman. So that you, yourself, personally, had nothing to
do with any espionage operation in the plant ?
Mr. Gragis. No. I have read the case a couple of times and it was
all new information to me and it shocked me.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this. If a man were a member of
the Communist Party
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Under Communist discipline
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 409
The Chairman. And if he were ordered to perform any act, such
as espionage, sabotage and refused to perform that act, would he be
expelled from the party ?
Mr. Gragis. I believe so. I might not have believed that 5 years
or so ago. But I believe today that he would definitely if he received
instructions from ])arty organizers up at the top gladly subndt what-
ever information they wanted.
The Chairman. I hate to impose on your time more, but I am
afraid we will have to. There are 4 people in the audience, 4 wit-
nesses who will have to be identified. I want them here, and you
here, when they are identified. So will you return Wednesday at
10 : 30 in the morning ?
Mr. Gragis. Senator, I won't have a job. I will be unemployed,
so it is perfectly all right to call me down.
The Chairman. We will talk to your employer about that.
Mr. Gragis. Yes; but he doesn't have any work. He has very
little work even as it is. So you can't do anything on that score. I
found there is some truth in this for the last 3 or 4 years. If you find
him employment, I am sure he will give me a raise.
The Chairman. Your testimony is extremely important. The
counsel will discuss it with you and we will make some arrangements
whereby you can appear without endangering your job. Will you
see Mr. Cohn.
Mr. Gragis. Thank you.
(Thereupon, at 12:25 p. m., a recess was taken until Wednesday,
March 10, 1954, at 10 : 30 a. m.)
LN DEX
Page
AAOC (Antiaircraft Operations Command) 375
ACPO-XD TAGO, Washington, D. C 372
Air Materiel Command (Wright Field) 407
American Government 358, 360, 362, 366, 367, 377,
379-381, 384, 385, 387, 390, 392, 395, 396, 400-402, 405, 406
Antiaircraft Artillery (Fort Banks) 372
Antiaircraft Operations Command (AAOC) 372
Armed services 356-361, 363, 364, 366, 368-372, 381, 388
Army (United States) 35&-61, 363, 364, 366, 36&-372, 381, 388
Army (discharge procedure) 371
Army Intelligence (G-2) 357, 370, 373
Army regulations 369
Banks (Fort) 372
Bill of Rights 405
Bronx High School (New York City) 365
Bulova Watch Co 377
Camp Detrick, Md 364
Camp Kilmer 372
CIO (Congress of Industrial Organizations) 386, 387
City College (New York) 365, 368, 369
Cominform 398
Communist conspiracy 357, 390, 391, 393, 394, 397, 400, 401
Communist Conspiracy No. 2 401
Communist espionage agent 390
Communist Manifesto 377, 403
Communist Party 356, 357, 359, 362, 367, 368, 370-373,
377-379, 381, 383, 384, 386, 387, 389-391, 393-400, 403, 404, 406, 408
Communist Party (Cominform) 398
Communist Party (Manifesto) 377,403
Communist philosophy 360
Confidential material 381
Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO) 386,387
Constitution of the United States 366, 383, 395, 399, 402, 405
Daily Worker 377, 379
Das Kapital 377, 403
DD Form 98 370
De Laval Separator Works (Poughkeepsie, N. Y.) 376, 378
Democrat 406
Department of Defense 356-361, 363, 364, 366, 368-372, 381, 388
Department of Justice 378
Detrick (Camp) 364
Detroit, Mich 406
Devens (Fort) 369
Dix (Fort) 356, 364, 365
East Side (New York City) 379
Ehnhurst 376
English language 404
Euclid 366
Fascists 367
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 370,
373, 377, 381, 392-393, 397, 400-402, 405
Federal Government 358, 360, 362, 366,
367. 377, 379-381, 384, 385, 387, 390, 392, 395, 396, 400-402, 405, 406
Federal Telecommunications Laboratories (FTL) 358,
377-383, 385-389, 395, 396, 399
Federal Telecommunications Laboratories (Huntley, N. J.) 377
II INDEX
Federation of Architects, Engineers, Chemists, and Technicians (CIO ^^se
union) 3S6
Ford Instrument Co. (Long Island City, N. Y.) 376,378,380
Fort Banks Antiaircraft Artillery 372
Fort Devens 369
Fort Dix, N. J 356, 364, 365
Fort Myer, Va 356,364,365
French language 404
Friedman, Morton 355, 356
FITR 380
G-2 (Army Intelligence) 357,370,373
General discharge (honorable) 369,371
German language 404
Gerson, Simon W 391,394
Government agency 385, 392, 396, 401
Government contract 384
Government of the United States 358, 360, 362, 366,
367, 377, 379-381, 384, 385, 387, 390, 392, 395, 396, 400-402, 405, 406
Gragis, Peter A 383
Testimony of 375-382, 407-409
Great Neck, Long Island, N. Y 375
Great Neck Arrandale Grammar School 375
Hazeltine Electronics 380
Herndon 377
History of Existence and Uniqueness of Theorems in Ordinary Differential
Equations (thesis) 366
Honorable discharge (general) 369,371
Huntley, N. J 377
Hyman, Harry 358, 359, 378, 384-391, 395, 396, 407, 408
Infantry (U. S. Army) 372
Iskandourian, Dr 385
Jefferson School (New York City) 379
Justice Department 378
Kentucky University 375,383
Kilmer (Camp) 372
Kollsman Instrument Co 376,383,388
Kollsman Instrument Division (Square-D Co.) 383
Lenin 379, 391, 403, 404, 405
Levittown, Long Island, N. Y 375
Lexington Signal Depot (Lexington, Ky.) 388
Lexington, Ky 388
Linfield, David LaPorte : Testimony of 355-369^
Linfield, Jordan LaPorte 363, 364
Linfield, Seymour LaPorte 362, 363, 364
Linfield's sjster (Mrs. Allan Weingarten) 362,364
Long Island City, N. Y 376
M-33 radar set 372
Manifesto (Communist) 377, 403
Mark V project (Hazeltine Electronics) 380
Marx, Karl 403
Marx-Lenin 403
McGee, Frank Mason 379,408
Testimony of 382-407
Military Establishment 356-361, 363, 364, 366, 368-372, 381, 388
Military Intelligence (G-2) 357,370,373-
Monroe, La 382
Moorehead State Teachers College 383
Moretti, Garni 406
MOS 364
New York City 356, 363, 365, 368, 369, 375, 376, 379, 382, 384, 391
New York City College 365,368,369'
New York Daily Worker 377, 379^
New York University 365,375'
Nutley, N. J 387
Peoples Rights Party 391
Peress, Major 371
Pierce School of Radio and Television (New York City) 384
INDEX ni
Page
Pouglikeepsie, N. Y 376, 378
Presidency 406
President of the United States 402
Progressive Party 372
PSQ 381
Radar 372, 388
Radar (M-33 set) 372
Radar school (Lexington, Ky.) 388
Red Leninism 403
Restricted material 381
Robinowitz, Victor 382
Rubenstein, Sidney
Testimony of 369-373
Russia 360, 367
Russian language 404
Scottsboro boys 377
Secret material 381
Signal Corps (United States Army) 358, 388
Simmonds Aerocessories (Long Island City, N. Y. ) 376
Soviet Union 398
Square-D Co. (KoUsman Instrument Division) 383
State and Revolution (book) 379, 383, 391, 404, 405
Stohldrier, Mr 362
TAGO ACPO-XD, Washington, D. C 372
Telecommunications Laboratories (FTL) 358, 377-383, 385-389, 395, 396, 399
Thomas Jefferson School (NYC) 379
Top secret material 381
United States armed services 356-361, 364, 366, 368-372. 381. 388
United States Army (lutellisence G-2) 357,370,373
United States Army Signal Corps 358,388
United States Constitution 366, 383, 395, 399, 402, 405
United States Department of Justice 378
United States Federal Bureau of Investigation 370,
373, 377, 381, 892-394, 397, 400-402, 405
United States Government 358,360,362,
366, 367, 377, 379-381, 384, 385, 387, 390, 392, 395, 396, 400-402, 405, 406
United States Infantry 372
United States Military Establishment— 356-361,363,364,366,368-372,381,388
United States President 402
University of Kentucky 375, 383
University of New York 365, 375
Vassar College ; 378
Washington, D. C 372
Weiler, Dr. Paul G 376
Weingarten, Allan 362
Weingarten, Mrs. Allan (sister of David Linfield) 362,364
Worker (publication) 377,379
Wright Field (Air Materiel Command) 407
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Understanding 9/11