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ARMY SIGNAL CORPS— SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
PURSUANT TO
S. Res. 189
PART 10
MARCH 10 AND 11, 1954
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1954
Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents
JUN 16 1954
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MDNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
Richard J. O'Melia, General Counsel
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
Roy M. Cohn, Chief Counsel
Francis P. Carr, Executive Director
Robert F. Kennedy, Chief Counsel for the Minority
II
CONTENTS
Pag«
Appendix 471
Index j
Testimony of —
Dash, Harriman 427
Gragis, Peter A 411,426, 434
Kantrowitz, Leo 413
Moss, Mrs. Annie Lee 443
Saunders, John 462
EXHIBITS
Introduced Appears
on page on j age
20 (a). Memorandum from Arnold M. Levine, Federal Telecom-
munication Laboratories, Inc., to William F. Boyd,
personnel manager, Federal Telecommunication Lab-
oratories, Inc. March 14, 1950 426 471
20 (b). Letter from William F. Boyd, personnel manager, Federal
Telecommunication Laboratories Inc., to County
Court of the County of Kings, Brooklyn, N. Y., March
16, 1950 426 471
20 (c). Memorandum from Arnold M. Levine, Federal Telecom-
munication Laboratories, Inc., to William F. Boyd,
personnel manager, Federal Telecommunication Lab-
oratories, Inc., July 31, 1950 426 471
20 (d) . Letter from William F. Boyd, personnel manager, Federal
Telecommunication Laboratories, Inc., to County
Court of the County of Kings, Brooklyn, N. Y., August
1, 1950 _- .___ 426 472
21 (a). Communist Party nominating petition, dated 1940, Facing
signed by Leo Kantrowitz 426 472
21 (b). Communist Party nominating petition, dated 1941, Facing
signed by Leo Kantrowitz 426 472
21 (c). Communist Party nominating petition, dated 1943, Facing
signed by Leo Kantrowitz 426 472
21 (d). Communist Party nominating petition, dated 1945, signed Facing
by Leo Kantrowitz 426 472
22. Letter from Leo Kantrowitz to Chester Johansen, vice presi-
dent, Federal Telecommunication Laboratories, Inc., March
16,1953 '_ 426 472
23. Affidavit, signed by Harriman Dash, February 26, 1954 430 *
24. Excerpt from House of Representatives Report No. 2233,
79th Congress, 2d session, June 7, 1946 439 472
•May be found in the files of the subcommittee.
Ill
AEMY SIGNAL COBPS— SUBVEB8I0N AND ESPIONAGE
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 10, 1954
United States Senate,
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the
Committee on Government Operations,
Washington, D. C.
The subcommittee met at 10 : 30 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room
357, Senate Office Building, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy (chairman)
presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin;
Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota ; Senator Charles
E. Potter, Republican, Michigan ; Senator Stuart Symington, Demo-
crat, Missouri.
Present also; Roy M. Colin, chief counsel; Robert Francis Kennedy,
chief counsel to minority ; Francis P. Carr, executive director ; Daniel
G. Buckley, assistant counsel ; James Juliana, investigator ; Ruth Y.
Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Your first witness, Mr. Colin ?
Mr. Cohn. I believe Mr. Gragis was on the stand when we ad-
journed last time, Mr. Chairman. We would like to have him back.
The Chairman. Mr. Gragis? I am going to impose upon you
photographers to move to one side so we can proceed with the hearing.
TESTIMONY 0E PETER A. GRAGIS
The Chairman. Mr. Gragis, you are reminded you are still under
oath.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Gragis, I think we had interrupted your testimony
to put on Mr. McGee, whom you had named as a member of this Com-
munist cell at the Federal Telecommunications Laboratory. You
identified him, and you identified Harry Hyman. Did you know a
man by the name of Ernest Pataki, by the way ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. Cohn. In what capacity did you know Ernest Pataki?
Mr. Gragis. I knew him as a member of the same Communist cell
in FTL and also in the local 231, FAECT, which is the union, and
which also is Communist dominated.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, the record shows that Mr. Pataki has
already appeared in public session before this committee, and has in-
voked the fifth amendment as to Communist and espionage activities.
That is Ernest Pataki. P-a-t-a-k-i.
The Chairman. Mr. Cohn, does the record show that Mr. Pataki
was handling classified material ?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, it does, Mr. Chairman.
411
412 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
We have Hyman, we have Pataki, we have McGee, we have your-
self. Did you know a woman by the name of Ruth Levine?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. In what capacity did you know Ruth Levine?
Mr. Gragis. I knew her also as a member of the same cell in FTL,
not however as active as the other members of the cell.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, the public record shows Ruth Levine has
likewise appeared in public session before the committee. At the time
she appeared, I believe she had top secret clearance and she invoked
the fifth amendment as to Communist and conspiracy to commit espio-
nage activities, before the committee on December 16, 1 believe.
The Chairman. Am I correct in this, that Ruth Levine was sub-
penaed or ordered to appear on the loth of December ; that at the time
she was ordered to appear she had top secret clearance, currently em-
ployed at Telecommunications, which, in turn is handling secret radar
work ? Is that correct ?
Mr. Cohn. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. And when she was informed by her security officer
that she would have to tell whether she was a member of the Com-
munist Party or not, she then resigned, is that correct ?
Mr. Cohn. That is correct.
Did you know a man by the name of John Saunders?
Mr. Gragis. I do.
The Chairman. We have the rule that you can take pictures be-
fore the witness starts to testify, you can take them when he completes
his testimony. It is impossible for a man to testify when the photog-
raphers are poised in front of him. I know you have a job and are as-
signed to it, and I do not want to make your job more difficult, but I
must, I am afraid.
Mr. Gragis. Thank you very much, Senator McCarthy.
The Chairman. Will you young men step aside, please ?
Mr. Cohn. Did you know John Saunders as a member of this Com-
munist cell?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, I knew Mr. Saunders as a member of the same cell.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Saunders will be heard later this morning, Mr.
Chairman, I hope.
Now, how about Leo Kantrowitz ? Did you know him at the Fed-
eral Telecommunications Laboratories?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, I knew Mr. Kantrowitz who worked in FTL and
who was also a member of the same cell.
Mr. Cohn. Do you identify Mr. Kantrowitz as a person you knew
to be a member of the Communist cell ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did he attend meetings?
Mr. Gragis. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Was he active in the cell ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Kantrowitz was directed to be here
this morning with counsel. I wonder if he could stand up.
The Chairman. First let me ask the witness : I understand that you
were not part of an espionage ring, you were part of the so-called
aboveground element of the Communist Party ? In other words, you
were never part of an espionage ring ?
Mr. Gragis. No, sir.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 413
The Chairman. So you would not be in a position-
Mr. Gragis. I might have been, but I wouldn't have known about it.
The Chairman. In other words, some of the information you might
have had might have been used by an espionage ring, but you wouldn't
know about it ?
Mr. Gragis. That is right.
The Chairman. So you would not be in a position to tell us which
of the Communists you have named were or were not in espionage?
Mr. Gragis. That is correct.
The Chairman. Mr. Kantrowitz, would you stand up ?
Would you look at this man. Is this the man you have reference to ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You may sit down, Mr. Kantrowitz.
He was an active member of the Communist Party, was he ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I think we should hear Mr. Kantrowitz. I be-
lieve he has a right to come up and tell us whether this is true or not.
Will you step aside?
Mr. Kantrowitz, will you come forward, please ?
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, are you going to have this
witness back again?
The Chairman. Yes. We have been following the rule, Senator,
of allowing a witness who has been named as a member of the Com-
munist conspiracy to come forward and deny immediately, and the
witness Gragis will be called back to the stand.
Mr. Kantrowitz, will you stand and raise your right hand ? In this
matter now in hearing before the committee, do you solemnly swear
to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LEO KANTROWITZ (APPEARING WITH COUNSEL,
VICTOR RABINOWITZ, NEW YORK, N. Y.)
The Chairman. Counsel has been identified previously.
Do you prefer to have the lights turned off the witness ?
The witness would prefer to have the lights turned off and he is
entitled to that. Would you turn the lights off the witness? You
can turn them on Mr. Symington, if you like.
Senator Symington. That would be a novel experience, Mr. Chair-
man.
Mr. Kantrowitz. Thank you.
Mr. Cohn. May we have your full name for the record, please?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Leo Kantrowitz.
Mr. Cohn. K-a-n-t-r-o-w-i-t-z ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Would you tell us where you reside?
Mr. Kantrowitz. 69 Bruan Place, Clifton, N. J.
Mr. Cohn. When you were subpenaed by this committee last month,
were you employed at the Zenith Engineering Co. ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, I wasn't.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you employed ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I stated then that I had resigned.
414 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. Cohn. Well, when did you resign from the Zenith Co. ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Several days prior to my appearance here.
Mr. Cohn. Yes. Well, I don't think I said when you appeared. I
said when you were called to appear before this committee, were you
employed by the Zenith Engineering Co. ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Yes, I was.
Mr. Cohn. And, Mr. Chairman, I would like the record to show a
communication from the Zenith Engineering Co. to the committee to
the effect that at the time Kantrowitz was notified to appear before
this committee, he had a clearance to do "confidential and restricted
work behind locked doors." That is from a Mr. Kastle and a Mr.
Bacilli, of the Zenith Engineering Co.
Senator Potter. Who was he cleared by ?
Mr. Cohn. I don't know which one of the services he was cleared by,
Senator. It says "Under the security agreement with the United
States Government he was performing confidential and restricted
work behind locked doors."
If we want that broken down into what particular branch of the
Defense Department, we would ask that it be done.
The Chairman. It would be the military, right ?
Mr. Cohn. The Defense Department.
The Chairman. And this Zenith Engineering was doing confiden-
tial defense work ; is that correct ?
Mr. Cohn. That is correct.
Now, Mr. Kantrowitz, you have heard the testimony here of Mr.
Gragis to the effect that you were, when he knew you in Federal Tele-
communications Laboratories, an active member of a Communist cell
there. Is that testimony true? Were you a member of this Com-
munist cell ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
that under the fifth amendment a person may not be compelled to bear
witness against himself.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a member of the Communist Party while work-
ing at the Zenith Engineering Co. last month ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Are you a member of the Communist Party today?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
The Chairman. On the grounds of self-incrimination?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever discuss with any members of the
Communist Party the confidential work which you were doing at
Zenith Engineering, the defense work?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
already stated.
The Chairman. On the grounds of self-incrimination ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How old are you now ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. ThiiM^-six.
The Chairman. And where are you working as of today ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I am unemployed.
The Chairman. You are unemployed ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Yes.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 415
The Chairman. And how long did yon work for Zenith Engineer-
ing?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Approximately 1 year.
The Chairman. And before that where did you work?
Mr. Kantrowitz. At Federal Telecommunications Laboratory.
The Chairman. Federal Telecommunications? xVnd Federal Tele-
communications does work for the Radar Laboratory, is that correct,
the Army Signal Corps ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I don't know the answer to that question.
The Chairman. You do not know who the work is being done for.
And did you have confidential clearance at FTL also, at Federal Tele-
communications ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I don't know the answer to that question, either.
The Chairman. Did you have a badge which allowed you to get in
beyond the guards?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Yes, I did.
The Chairman. So you were working in an area that was guarded
by guards with a high wire fence ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Well, it had no high wire fence, but it had guards.
The Chairman. Was there a fence around the place?
Mr. Kantrowitz. It is a restricted area, yes.
The Chairman. And at that time you were a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
already stated.
The Chairman. You will have to restate your grounds.
Mr. Kantrowitz. On the grounds
The Chairman. If it is that you fear the answer might tend to
incriminate you, you may refuse to answer.
Mr. Kantrowitz. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is the ground?
Mr. Kantrowitz. That is the ground.
The Chairman. How long did you work at Federal Telecommuni-
cations?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Approximately 6 years.
The Chairman. During all that period of time, were you giving
information about your work to the Communist Party ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
already stated.
The Chairman. You will have to restate your grounds, mister.
Mr. Kantrowitz. On the grounds that under the fifth amendment
a person may not be compelled to bear witness against himself.
The Chairman. Before you worked for Federal Telecommunica-
tions, where did you work?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Paragon Design Co.
The Chairman. Paragon?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Paragon.
The Chairman. That is P-a-r-a-g-o-n?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Yes, that is right.
The Chairman. Where was that located?
Mr. Kantrowitz. It was located in New York City.
The Chairman. Did you work on turbines there ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. That is riffht.
416 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. And did the general public have access to that
work ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In other words, that was not classified, any one
could come in and look at your work, could they ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I believe so.
The Chairman. Do you know whether that is a fact or not?
Mr. Kantrowitz. To the best of my knowledge, it is so.
The Chairman. In other words, you did not have to get by any
guards to work on this work ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
The Chairman. How many years did you work at the Paragon
Design Co.?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I don't know, several years.
The Chairman. Before that where did you work?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Lloyd Rogers & Co., another engineering office.
The Chairman. Was that Lloyd Rogers & Co. also doing work for
the Government?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I don't remember if they did or not.
The Chairman. We are back now to about 1946. How long did you
work for the Lloyd Rogers Co.?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Several years. I don't know the exact dates.
The Chairman. And before that where did you work?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Federal Tele — Bell Laboratories.
The Chairman. Bell Telephone Laboratories?
Mr. Kantrowitz. That is right.
The Chairman. Doing electronic work while with them?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I was a detailer.
The Chairman. Pardon me?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I did detail work in the drafting room.
The Chairman. By detail work what do you mean ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I was a beginner.
The Chairman. You were a beginner.
Mr. Kantrowitz. That is right.
The Chairman. In other words, just learning the trade?
Mr. Kantrowitz. That is right.
The Chairman. Before that where did you work?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I think I worked for a company called Surrey
Dress Shop.
The Chairman. The Surrey Dress Shop?
Mr. Kantrowitz. That is right.
The Chairman. Nothing confidential about that, I assume.
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
The Chairman. Before that where did you work?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I think a place called
The Chairman. You worked for the War Department when ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Oh, yes. I worked for the War Department.
Around that time. I don't recall.
The Chairman. What type of work did you do for the War De-
partment ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I was a topographical draftsman.
The Chairman. A what?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Topographical draftsman.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 417
The Chairman. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
that time ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer on the grounds that under the
fifth amendment a person may not be compelled to bear witness
against himself.
Senator Potter. Were you in military service at that time or work-
ing as a civilian ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I was a civilian.
The Chairman. What year was that?
Mr. Kantrowitz. It might have been '42.
The Chairman. It might have been when ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. '43 or 42.
The Chairman. Did you serve in the Army ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you request deferment or did someone request
deferment for you ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
The Chairman. How were you deferred? Will you tell us that?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I was declared unphysically fit.
The Chairman. Pardon ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I was declared not physically fit.
The Chairman. In other words, you were physically unfit, and
that is the reason you did not serve?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Right.
The Chairman. Did you ever sign any petitions pledging support
of the Communist Party or Communist candidates while working for
the War Department?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
already stated, under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. I will hand you certain petitions in which you
pledged support of Communist candidates in the Communist Party,
petitions which allegedly bear your signature, and ask you whether
or not this is your signature.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, for the purpose of the record, petitions
from 1940, Communist Party nominating petitions in 1940, 1941, 1943,
and 1945, each of which, Mr. Chairman, contains a pledge of support
to the Communist Party at the next election, and contains the name
of the signers as Leo Kantrowitz, K-a-n-t-r-o-w-i-t-z, and the petition
shows the signatures appear to be identical.
The Chairman. I think we should read the petition into the
record. It reads as follows :
I, the undersigned, do hereby state that I am a duly qualified elector of the
Borough of Brooklyn, city and State of New York, the political unit for which a
nomination for public office is hereby made, that my place of residence is truly
stated opposite my signature hereto, that I have registered as a voter of such
Borough of Brooklyn, city of New York, within 18 months previous to the time
this petition is filed, that I intend to support at the ensuing election, and I do
hereby nominate the following-named person as a candidate for nomination for
the public office of councilman from the Borough of Brooklyn, New York City,
to be voted for at the general election to be held in said borough on the 6th day
of November 1945, and I select the designation Communist Party to appear
after the name of the candidate on the ballot in accordance with the provisions
of subdivision D of section 1004, chapter 43, of the New York City charter.
Did you sign this petition in which you selected a designation for
the Communist Party?
418 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
already stated, on the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Before you were given clearance to handle confi-
dential defense material, which you were handling, of course, up to the
day you were subpenaed by this committee last month, did anyone ever
ask you whether you were a member of the Communist Party ? That
is, anyone in authority, your boss, the security officer in the plant,
anyone with the military?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
already stated.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer that. I am not ask-
ing you now whether you are part of the Communist conspiracy. I
am merely checking the type of security that was followed. I merely
ask you the question whether or not you were asked by the security
officer or anyone in authority at the plant whether or not you were a
Communist. You will be ordered to answer that question.
Mr. Kantrowitz. I still refuse to answer that question on the
ground that under the fifth amendment a person may not be compelled
to bear witness against himself.
The Chairman. For the information of counsel, I of course will
submit this case to the full committee with a request that this man be
cited for contempt, because this is improper use of the fifth amend-
ment. He can only invoke the fifth amendment where he honestly
believes an answer might tend to incriminate him. It cannot in-
criminate him to tell us about the security regulations at the plant.
As a courtesy to the counsel we give you that information. That will
be taken up at the next meeting of the full committee.
I assume you persist in your refusal ?
Now let me ask you this
Senator Mundt. Does he still persist? This is quite obviously a
question which could not conceivably incriminate him in any way. It
could not incriminate him because it does not involve anybody's guilt.
But if he decides to be in contempt of Congress, I want him to do it
knowingly, and publicly and categorically.
Mr. Rabinowitz. May I have a moment, Senator ?
Senator Mundt. Surely.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Senator Mundt. Mr. Counsel, you might also advise your client
that the committee has no purpose or intention of asking him about
any of his answers. We are trying to find out what was done by the
other people.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Rabinowitz. The witness will answer the question, sir.
Mr. Kantrowitz. The answer to the question that you put before
was, to the best of my knowledge, I don't think so.
The Chairman. In other words, to the best of your knowledge you
were given clearance to handle confidential defense work, and no on©
in authority ever asked you whether or not you were a Communist?
Is that correct ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Senator Potter, have you any questions ?
Senator Potter. I have no questions.
Yes, I do, Mr. Chairman.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 419
What has been your training for your professional work? What
has been your professional training? I assume you are an electrical
engineer ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. No ; I am not, sir.
Senator Potter. What has been your training ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Just working at the job, that is all. I have only
a high-school education.
Senator Potter. And at any time, when you worked for the De-
partment of Defense, and I assume it was the War Department at that
time, were you asked or were you required to sign an oath that you
were not a member of any organization that advocated the overthrow
of our Government by force and violence ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Senator Potter. You have no knowledge as to whether you ever
were required
Mr. Kantrowitz. That is right.
Senator Potter. To sign such a statement, and a statement in gen-
eral terms. I am not sticking to the words I enunciated, but you
have never to your knowledge had to sign a statement as to your loyalty
to the Government ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. That is right.
Senator Mundt. At the time of your employment, were you re-
quired to submit any information which, in your opinion, would have
anything to do with security clearance, or was the time you supplied
something dealing with your capacity and ability and intention to
work ? I am talking about when you applied for the job.
Mr. Kantrowitz. Which job are you talking about, sir?
Senator Mundt. The position we are discussing in the hearing, at
the Zenith Corp.
Mr. Kantrowitz. At the Zenith Corp. ?
Senator Mundt. Yes.
Mr. Kantrowitz. I just applied as anyone would for any kind of
job.
Senator Potter. What tj^pe of work did you do there ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I was a draftsman.
Senator Potter. What kind of drafting were you doing?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I would say it is of a low category.
Senator Potter. Was it drafting on military projects?
Mr. Kantrowitz. The kind of work that the Zenith Co. did. It was
a subcontracting office for Bell Telephone Laboratories.
Senator Potter. Did you have opportunity while you were em-
ployed with the Zenith Co. to handle classified documents ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Sometimes ; yes, sir.
Senator Potter. While you were employed there, did you ever con-
vey any of the information that you received from the classified docu-
ments to unauthorized persons ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I never discussed any work of classified nature
with any unauthorized persons, only those with whom I worked and
with whom the Bell Laboratories company sent down to conduct the
job.
Senator Potter. Were there other persons at the Zenith plant that
would be in the category that you are in now, that would take the
fifth amendment rather than to state whether they are members of
the Communist Party or not ?
420 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. Kantrowitz. That is a question I wouldn't know.
The Chairman. Could I interrupt?
Senator Potter. Yes.
The Chairman. You said to Mr. Potter that you had not discussed
this confidential work with any unauthorized personnel. Did you dis-
cuss your work with any authorized Communists ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. In other words, did you discuss the work with any
members of the Communist Party whom you considered to be in a
position where they were authorized to get the information?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
that under the fifth amendment a person may not be compelled to
bear witness against himself.
The Chairman. Were there other members of the Communist
Party working at Zenith?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Senator Potter. What disturbs me, Mr. Chairman, is the fact that
this man apparently worked at Zenith in this telecommunications
laboratory and at no time, according to his own statement, was he
required to take any loyalty oath at the same time he was handling
classified information.
You received, so I understand, loyalty clearance. That is difficult
for me to understand, how a person can receive loyalty clearance
when he has never been questioned concerning his loyalty.
The Chairman. May I say also, Senator Potter,- that the police
department, New York City, has in their public files a long record of
Communist activities. Is that correct, Roy ?
Mr. Cohn. That is correct.
The Chairman. So there is nothing secret about this man's Com-
munist activities at the time he handled the classified material.
Mr. Kantrowitz, I have heard people in the last couple of days — in
fact, I believe members of this committee — that have complained on
television programs that we have found no current Communists, that
they are all old cases. You were working on confidential work the
day that you were ordered to appear, were you not? You were or-
dered to appear about a month ago. You were working on confiden-
tial work then?
Mr. Kantrowitz. On or approximately that time.
The Chairman. "Would you consider yourself a current member of
the Communist Party or would you consider yourself, as one of the
Senators said, an old, warmed-over biscuit ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
that under the fifth amendment a person may not be compelled to bear
witness against himself.
The Chairman. I thought you would like to comment on this be-
cause day after day we are turning up Communists, who are working
on confidential secret work. Today we call them and then I hear
irresponsible statements, false statements, made by Senators to the
effect that
Senator Symington. If you are referring to Senator Jackson, I
think it would be better if, in this hearing, you gave Senator Jackson
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 421
the opportunity to be present before you attack him in the committee.
As a colleague of mine, I think he has the right to defend himself, and
I am sure he would be glad to, if you give him the opportunity.
The Chairman. Let me finish my sentence, please. Senator Jack-
son has been notified of the hearing this morning. I cannot force
any Senator to appear. I am also distressed about these cries about
a one-man committee. We have never held a hearing that was ob-
jected to by a single member of the committee. Every member of the
committee has been notified of hearings. On the few occasions when
they have objected to the hearings they have not been held. I do not
like to have Senators going out and misrepresenting the facts. If
they sat and listened to the testimony they would know the number of
current Communists, the danger of those men to the Government. We
have one before us today. Mr. Jackson had a resume of the testimony.
I may say
Senator Symington. At this stage, I would like to request that the
testimony of Senator Jackson be put into the hearing at this point,
whatever it was that Senator Jackson said.
The Chairman. May I finish, please? You named Senator Jack-
son. I have not.
Senator Symington. He is the only one that has been on television
since the last hearing, and I heard the broadcast. I know Senator
McClellan has not been, and I know I have not been.
The Chairman. Is it your request that his statement be put into the
record ?
If so, it will be inserted.
Senator Symington. I request this part that you do not like, with
respect to what he said, from the standpoint of accuracy, be inserted
into the record at this point.
The Chairman. I did not say whether I liked it or did not like it.
If you want to furnish the transcript of his statement, I will be more
than happy to put it into the record.
Senator Symington. I thank you, and I will discuss with Senator
Jackson when he gets back, and we will put into the record at this
point that part which he thinks advisable.
The Chairman. I think if we put any part in
Senator Symington. I meant to say, what he thinks advisable.
The Chairman. I think so, and if it is part of a speech he made, I
think he should put in the entire speech.
Senator Symington. I agree with that.
(The following decision was made regarding the above-mentioned
transcript:)
Senator McCarthy. Senator Jackson, I have read the transcript of your re-
marks on Man of the Week television program on Sunday, March 7, 1954. The
tenor of those remarks is certainly far different from what is reported in the
papers as to what you had said.
I think in order to clarify the record on this whole business, it might be well
if we put this in the record of March 10, 1954.
If you think it is necessary, we could put the transcript of your remarks on
record. That is entirely up to you.
Senator Jackson. It is not necessary.
The Chairman. And I think a speech made before a group of law-
yers here on the same subject should also be inserted.
422 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Now, where were we with the questioning. We have a report here,
Mr. Kantrowitz, that you worked on four hourly classified projects
dealing with the defense of this Nation. Is that information correct?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I don't know. I might have.
The Chairman. You do not know how many projects you worked
on? Senator Symington?
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the wit-
ness several questions, if I may.
First, could you tell me where you were born ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I was born in New York City.
Senator Symington. And where did you get your education?
Mr. Kantrowitz. In Brooklyn.
Senator Symington. In Brooklyn.
Mr. Kantrowitz. That is right.
Senator Symington. Where in Brooklyn ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Eastern District High School.
Senator Symington. And you became a draftsman, in your work in
high school ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Well, I took some drafting courses at high school.
Senator Symington. In high school ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. Did you ever transfer any classified docu-
ments to unauthorized personnel ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
Senator Symington. Did you ever know of any classified documents
being passed by any one to anybody else in the way that you would
consider wrong from the standpoint of the security- of the United
States?
Mr. Kantrowitz. To the best of my knowledge, no, sir.
Senator Symington. Did you ever discuss with any unauthorized
personnel the confidential work that you were on ? I mean unauthor-
ized personnel.
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
Senator Symington. You never did ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
Senator Symington. Why did you leave the FTL?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I resigned, sir.
Senator Symington. Did you resign voluntarily or by request?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Voluntarily.
Senator Symington. Did you ever participate in any espionage
activities against the United States?
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
Senator Symington. Do you know anybody that did?
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
Senator Symington. Did you know Harry Hyman?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. Did you know him as an espionage agent?
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
Senator Symington. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Kantrowitz, did you ever pass any classified
information to a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
that under the fifth amendment a person may not be compelled to bear
witness against himself.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 423
The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer. In answer to Mr.
Symington's question, you said you never passed any information to
any unauthorized personnel. A member of the Communist conspiracy
would not be authorized to get Government secrets. Therefore, you
will be ordered to answer the question.
Mr. Kaxtrowitz. I still refuse to answer on the grounds that I have
already stated.
The Chairman. Did you ever pass any classified information to
Harry Hyman \
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever discuss any confidential or other clas-
sified material with him?
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend any Communist espionage
cell meetings with Hyman?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. You had Communist cell meetings in your home,
did you not I
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
already stated, sir.
The Chairman. At any meeting in your home, did you ever discuss
any of this classified defense work?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I never discussed any work with anyone who was
not authorized to discuss it.
The Chairman. That is not the question. Your idea of who is
authorized and mine may be different. The question was did you
ever discuss any of the classified material at any meeting in your
home.
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
The Chairman. Pardon?
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever discuss any classified information at
any Communist cell meeting anywhere?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the
grounds stated.
The Chairman. May I say to the other members of the committee,
I think there is a serious question here. I think he should be ordered
to answer that question. I feel that when he said he was not engaged
in espionage he has waived the fifth amendment in regard to the entire
area, and of course handing material over or discussing it in the
presence of Communists would be placing the information in an open
conduit where it would be available to the Communist Party. If the
Senators agree with me, I will order him to answer that question.
I have asked for an opinion from the Justice Department on this
particular question. I have not received it as yet. I think we should
order him to answer. If he refuses, we should take this case up,
with the other cases of a like nature, with the Justice Department.
What is your thought?
Senator Potter. I think he should be ordered.
Senator Symington. Could I reserve judgment? I am talking to
counsel here. Could I look at the testimony ?
The Chairman. I will proceed.
40558 — 54 — pt. 10 2
424 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Senator Potter. As I understand, you are just asking permission to
ask the question. The committee will determine whether there is
reason for a contempt citation.
Senator Symington. That is fine.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer the question, then.
Mr. Kantrowitz. I still refuse to answer the question on the
grounds of the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Did you ever spend any time in Harry Hyman's
home?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the witness a
question.
Were you authorized to see classified information?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I suppose so.
Senator Mundt. What was that?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I would say yes.
Senator Mundt. What I am trying to get to is what do you mean
by authorized persons. You say you were authorized. Was there
some kind of a button you had or some kind of a card the company
gave you?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Identification ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. You had your identification, in other words, to
authorize you to receive classified information?
Mr. Kantrowitz. That is right, sir.
Senator Mundt. The reason I make that statement, Mr. Chairman,
and Senator Symington, is this : the reason I raise that question is
that you asked him whether he had ever passed any information to
unauthorized personnel. So I wanted to find out whether he was an
authorized person. He said he was. If the facts before us are cor-
rect, he was not only an authorized person, but a Communist. So if
he were a Communist and authorized personnel, it is conceivable that
other authorized personnel were also Communists, so he could, by his
definition, be handing material to other Communists and other espio-
nage agents because they could have gotten the same kind of button
or identification card that he received.
The Chairman. I might say in that connection, Senator Mundt,
Klaus Fuchs at one time was authorized to handle top secret mate-
rial. David Greenglass and Julius Rosenberg were in the same cate-
gory. Senator, I think your point is well taken when you call
attention to the fact that he could be giving classified material to the
entire espionage apparatus and still consider them authorized.
Senator Symington. Could I answer Senator Mundt there?
I would like to make this statement, that in no way am I trying to
defend the security arrangements at the FTL. What I am trying to
find out is whether or not there is any espionage committed at the
FTL. I would say that the fact there was poor security doesn't
necessarily mean that there was espionage.
In that connection, I would like to ask this question, if I may, Mr.
Kantrowitz : Did you ever attend any espionage meetings with Harry
Hyman ?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 425
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
The Chairman. What do you understand by the term espionage
meeting, Mr. Kantrowitz?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. What do you understand by that phrase?
Mr. Kantrowitz. I should think, sir, that the meaning of espionage
would mean to engage in meetings to discuss espionage.
The Chairman. Well, would you consider discussing confidential
defense work with members of the Communist Party at a meeting as
one phase of espionage ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kantrowitz. I don't know the answer to that question.
The Chairman. Well, you made a positive answer to Senator
Symington's question. Do you mean that you never attended a meet-
ing of the Communist Party where there was discussed the classified
defense work ? Is that what you mean ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. That is a question which, if I answer "No," im-
plies that I attended Communist Party meetings. I cannot answer a
question of that sort.
The Chairman. Well, if you did not attend
Mr. Kantrowitz. At least, there are too many implications.
The Charman. If you did not attend meetings at which there was
discussed confidential defense work, if you did not attend such Com-
munist meetings, you simply say "No." If you did, then, of course
you would be perjuring yourself to say "No," and you naturally will
invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Kantrowitz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment, sir.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer that question.
Mr. Kantrowitz. I still refuse.
The Chairman. Just so you cannot plead ignorance at some future
legal proceeding, Senator Symington asked you the very clear and
simple question whether or not you ever attended an espionage
meeting.
Mr. Kantrowitz. I answered that question.
The Chairman. You answered "No."
Mr. Kantrowitz. Right.
The Chairman. I now ask you whether or not you ever attended a
meeting of the Communist Party where there was discussed classified
government work, in or out of the plant, a Communist meeting, that
would be one phase of espionage. The position of the Chair is that
you have waived the fifth amendment insofar as that question is
concerned, and you are ordered to answer it.
Mr. Kantrowttz. I still refuse to answer on the grounds already
stated.
The Chairman. You can proceed to build up as many counts against
yourself as you care to. That is one way of dislodging you fifth-
amendment Communists who are sneaking in and out 01 one classi-
fied job into another, to have your cases submitted to a grand jury for
contempt. I want you to know yourself what you are doing, and I
want you to know that it is the Chair's position that you are in con-
tempt and your case will be submitted to the grand jury.
Have you any brothers and sisters working for the Government?
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
426 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Are you married ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Your wife is not working for the Government?
Mr. Kantrowitz. No, sir.
The Chairman. Any brothers or sisters in any defense plant ?
Mr. Kantrowitz. To the best of my knowledge, no, sir.
The Chairman. Any further questions?
Mr. Cohn. No, Mr. Chairman. We would like to insert into the
record, though, one or two further documents indicating the impor-
tance of the work that this witness was doing for the various armed
services during the last 4 years, up to and including last month, the
time when he was subpenaed by this committee.
The Chairman. We will be glad to put them in, Mr. Cohn.
(The documents referred to above were marked "Exhibit Nos. 20
(a), (b), (c), and (d)" and will be found in the appendix on pp.
471 and 472.)
Senator Mundt. Do I understand that we also have an open record
of this man's Communist connections ?
Mr. Cohn. One thing, Senator Mundt, right there we had I believe
four Communist Party nominating petitions openly and publicly
signed by this man. Those have been on file in New York City with
both the board of elections and New York City Police Department.
All of them have been on file for 9 years.
Senator Mundt. I think we ought to put in the heading of the peti-
tion, and the statement, as part of the record, too.
Mr. Cohn. Very well. What, we have done is to procure other sig-
natures of this man, which makes it abundantly clear it is the same
signature, and of course there is the address, and there is the fifth
amendment. I think we will put the entire matter into the record.
I think we will do that.
(The documents referred to above were marked "Exhibits Nos. 21
(a), (b), (c), and (d), and 22." Exhibits Nos. 21 (a), (b), (c), and
(d) will be found in the appendix facing p. 472. Exhibit No. 22 will
be found in the appendix on p. 472.
The Chairman. You may step down.
Mr. Gragis, will you take the stand ?
FURTHER TESTIMONY OF PETER A. GRAGIS
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Gragis, you have told us, I believe, that Harry Hy-
men, Frank McGee, Ruth Levine, Ernest Pataki, John Saunders, and
Leo Kantrowitz, who just testified, were members of the Communist
Party with you over at the FTL. Is that right ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man by the name of Harriman Dash?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. And the full name?
Mr. Gragis. Harriman Dash.
Mr. Cohn. H-a-r-r-i-m-a-n?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Cohn.
Mr. Cohn. You say you knew this Mr. Harriman Dash. In what
capacity did you know Mr. Dash ? First of all, did he work at Federal
Telecommunications Laboratory ?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 427
Mr. Gragis. He did indeed.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him in any other capacity ?
Mr. Gragis. I knew him as a chemist in the company and I also knew
him as a member of the same cell that I have talked so much about.
Mr. Cohn. Is that the same cell of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. And do you now name Mr. Dash as an additional mem-
ber of this cell of the Communist Party at FTL ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, I might state that Mr. Dash is here this
morning, that at the time he was called by this committee, I believe
2 or 3 weeks ago, after Mr. Gragis had named him to us, was holding
a classified job in the Anna Corp., a defense plant in New York City,
which handles highly classified defense contracts for the services.
Mr. Dash is here this morning.
Mr. Dash?
The Chairman. Will you step aside, Mr. Gragis?
Mr. Dash, I wonder if you would come forward.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Gragis, is this the Mr. Dash you identified?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn
Mr. Dash. Before I get sworn in, may I make a statement to this
committee ?
The Chairman. I prefer having you sworn first.
Mr. Dash. In the first place, I wasn't given any opportunity about
saying that I would not like to have the photographers here.
The Chairman. Turn the lights off.
Mr. Dash. I believe it is a little too late for that, sir. Secondly, if
you permit me to make the statement, I should like to make it.
The Chairman. You may make it.
Mr. Dash. I should like to state
The Chairman. Would you prefer not to have pictures taken also?
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, I don't see any purpose to be served
by a witness wanting to make a statement before he is sworn.
Senator Symington. Neither do I.
Mr. Dash. I could point out information to the committee before I
give testimony.
Senator Mundt. I think we should have sworn testimony and not
just rumors before the committee.
Mr. Dash. This is not a matter of rumor. It is a matter of fact.
I will permit myself to be sworn.
The Chairman. In this matter now in hearing before the committee,
do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Dash. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HARRIMAN DASH
Mr. Dash. I should like to ask the committee, are they aware that
I have asked for an executive session ?
The Chairman. Would you come around close? We will talk to
Mr. Dash. I think it will be clearer, sir, if you will go ahead with
the answers.
428 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. If you want an executive session-
Mr. Dash. I am merely asking if you are aware that I asked for
an executive session.
The Chairman. I frankly was not. Let me say this : I understand
that you are willing to give us information today. If you would
prefer doing that in executive session, I have no objection to hearing
you in executive session.
Mr. Dash. No, as long as my name has been brought up here, I, as
a matter of fact, will insist that I testify here.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Dash. No, I should like to proceed, if the committee is not
aware, then I should like to state the following. I have stated to the
FBI that I am not now and I have not been a Communist for the last
4 years, 4 o" 5 years.
The Chairman. When did you tell that to the FBI ?
Mr. Dash. I told that to the FBI sometime last week, sir.
The Chairman. That is after you were subpenaed by the com-
mittee ?
Mr. Dash. That is correct. After I was subpenaed by the com-
mittee, I did tell the FBI. I should like to also state to the com-
mittee
The Chairman. May I ask you this question
Mr. Dash. That although I have not been-
The Chairman. Let me ask you this : Am I correct in this assump-
tion that since you were subpenaed by the committee you have gone
to the FBI or the FBI called upon you and that you are now willing
to give them information?
Mr. Dash. Right, sir. As a matter of fact, I already have. I
should like to continue my statement to say that I have told them
that I have not been and am not and have not been for the last 4 years
a member of the Communist Party, that I was a member of the FTL
cell.
The Chairman. At the Federal Telecommunications?
Mr. Dash. That is right. I should also like to state what prompted
me to give this information. I am cognizant of the fact that I offered
a perjured statement to my company, both in respect to signing an
affidavit to the effect that I never was. When the FBI came to my
house, I realized the gravity of the situation. I had been piling up
perjury on top of perjury. I realized the gravity of the situation
in the sense that unless a former Communist tells the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, there is no possibility of clearing
himself of any suspicion of espionage or any other subversive
activities.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Dash, was that perjurous affidavit which you speak
of one dated February 26, 1954 ?
Mr. Dash. I believe it is, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Is this the sequence, so we get the record clear, is this the
sequence: Your company was contacted and told that we wanted —
I might preface it by this, Mr. Chairman.
The staff received information from 2 or 3 witnesses that Mr. Dash
had been a member of the Communist Party and of this Communist
cell at FTL. We checked on his employment record and found that
he was currently holding a classified position in a place doing very
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS— SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 429
sensitive work for the military. We contacted the company and Mr.
Dash was served. . . ,
Now, do I understand that the company called you in and asked you
to sign an affidavit stating that you were not and never had been a
member of the Communist Party or any subversive organization?
Mr. Dash. That is right, sir.
Mr. Cohn. And you signed that affidavit?
Mr. Dash. I did.
Mr. Cohn. On February 26, 1954?
Mr. Dash. Eight, sir, I did.
Mr. Cohn. A couple of weeks ago. And after that, you had been
called by this committee, your company called you in, and you demed
to them vou had ever been a Communist ?
Mr. Dash. If you want me to go through my own testimony on
that situation, I think the committee stands severe criticism in the
way it has handled mv case. I don't think their counsel has informed
the committee of the details of what I have informed the committee.
I have stated — Please let me conclude now.
Mr. Cohn. Say anything you like.
Mr. Dash. I feel that you make it impossible for a cooperative
witness to come before this committee and give you information,
from what you have done in my case, for the following reasons, sir : I
feel, I have explained in great detail to your counsel what the situa-
tion is. I do not think I have a right to ask for an immunity in
appearing in this situation, because I have perjured myself with the
testimony that I gave. . . .
I also 'feel that I do want to cooperate, and my objective is plainly
the following : I have given to the FBI information about individuals
I knew a long time ago. I have no idea what they are doing today. If
they are innocent, I wish their names would not be brought out into
public. If they are guilty, you may prosecute them to the hilt.
Now, I should like to state the following: Nobody can evaluate
that. I have given the information to the FBI. They will investi-
gate, I presume.
The Chairman. May I say, Air. Dash, that you may not like the way
the committee proceeds. That is up to us to decide. It is very im-
portant for the public to know the extent of Communist infiltration
over the past number of years. The public cannot get that information
if we take a written statement from you in a darkroom down here.
Mr. Dash. Why not?
The Chairman. Please.
Mr. Dash. Excuse me, Senator. I'm sorry.
The Chairman. You have important information. You are cleared
to handle classified work. You have changed your mind and decided
to tell the truth. The first time you were before us, you did not tell
us the truth.
Mr. Dash. No, that is not so, Senator.
The Chairman. At least you did not give the investigators the facts.
Mr. Dash. I did, sir.
The Chairman. Please do not interrupt. If I state this incor-
rectly you can tell me.
Mr. Dash. Unless you permit me to take notes, I won't be able to
give you the proper answers.
430 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. You can take notes. I very much appreciate the
fact that you have decided to give us all the facts. We are not going
to ask you to name any individuals who were members of the Com-
munist Party with you unless those individuals are here in the room.
That is the rule we follow.
You object to being called in a public session. Frankly, if I had
been informed that you wanted an executive session, we would still
call you in a public session, because I follow the theory that the
American people are entitled to have all of these facts. I know it is a
bit hard on you. But we do not enjoy this either. We will just this
morning try and get information from you which involves no one
unless they are in this room to answer. So if you will refrain from
giving any names, unless counsel asks for the names specifically, that
w T ill take care of that situation. All right?
Mr. Dash. Well, I merely would like to say this in that respect. In
asking for an executive session, I merely wanted the committee to have
the information to evaluate so they would know what to bring here
before the session. I think there is a great deal of criticism due to the
committee. Like many other millions of Americans who are not
Communists, I think they don't agree with some of the procedures
that are going on. It is not up to me to evaluate. I wish to co-
operate in every way possible.
Mr. Cohn. Of course all of the information that was obtained from
this committee
The Chairman. I have all of the information. Let us be done with
this now. I told you that I am aware of everything you told the
investigators. I know when you decided to break with: the party. The
FBI man you have been talking to, I have a 7-page report on what you
can testify to, and I want you in public session so the American people
can get a better picture of the infiltration of Communists.
You are performing a service here this morning. Now, if we can
proceed with your testimony.
Mr. Dash. Right, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Cohn?
Mr. Cohn. You signed this affidavit about 2 weeks ago, and you
now tell us that affidavit is untrue ; is that right ?
Mr. Dash. Yes. I have told that to the FBI before I told it to
this 'committee and I also told it to the counsel for this committee
and now.
Mr. Cohn. For the record, you will tell us that now, is that right?
Mr. Dash. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. May we have this affidavit placed in the record, the
affidavit of February 26, 1954?
(The affidavit was marked "Exhibit No. 23" and may be found in
the files of the subcommittee.)
The Chairman. May I make it clear at this time while I do not
speak for the committee, I will not recommend any prosecution of
this individual because he apparently now is giving us all the truth.
I think when he admits that he was wrong, even though it would be
subject to criminal action, as far as the Chair is concerned I have no
intention of making any recommendation for prosecution. I do not
speak for the entire committee. Proceed, Mr. Cohn.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 431
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Dash, when did you join the Communist
Party?
Mr. Dash. I joined the Communist Party in 1933 or 1934, to the
best of my recollection.
Mr. Cohn. When did you leave the Communist Party ?
Mr. Dash. I left the Communist Party in 1939, and rejoined in 1947
and remained a member up until 1949 or early 1950. There were ex-
tenuating circumstances in my rejoining.
Senator Mundt. What do you mean by extenuating circumstances ?
What happened then ?
Mr. Dash. In rejoining the party at that time.
Senator Mundt. You left in 1950 ?
Mr. Dash. I left in 1950 and I have not been a member since that
time, sir.
Senator Symington. May I ask you a question ?
Mr. Dash. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. You rejoined in 1947?
Mr. Dash. That is right, sir.
Senator Symington. You knew that at that time the relationship
of the United States and the Soviet was rapidly worsening, did you
not?
Mr. Dash. Yes, sir; I did.
Senator Symington. How do you explain that ? Do you feel that
you are a good American citizen ?
Mr. Dash. Well, I would say it was based primarily on economic
reasons.
Senator Symington. In other words, you do live better if you re-
joined, so you did it regardless of what it did to the security of your
own country ?
Mr. Dash. I wouldn't say I lived better because I rejoined, but
under the situation I was known to have been a member before — if
you will allow me to state it this way, sir.
Senator Symington. State it any way you want. Just give us the
truth.
Mr. Dash. That is right. Unless I clarify the sequence, you won't
get the picture. I was known to have been a member of the party
before by people who were active in the union.
Senator Symington. What union ?
Mr. Dash. In the Federation of Architects, Engineers, Chemists,
and Technicians.
Senator Symington. That is too fast. I did not hear it. I am
sorry.
Mr. Dash. Federation of Architects, Engineers, Chemists, and
Technicians.
Senator Symington. Thank you. Would you speak a little closer in
the microphone ?
Mr. Dash. Right, sir.
Senator Symington. Were you threatened when you went back
into the
Mr. Dash. No, sir ; I was not threatened. The situation was very
clear. At the time I went to the union I asked if there were any pos-
sible openings. They said there may be an opening at FTL. It was
purely on a completely economic basis. The company and the union
432 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
had agreed that I was an individual that was present at the proper
time with the proper experience to fill a certain job.
Senator Symington. What company?
Mr. Dash. That was at FTL, sir.
Senator Symington. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Dash. At FTL.
Seantor Symington. I see. In other words, you rejoined the Com-
munist Party in order to get a job?
Mr. Dash. That is right, sir.
Well, I wouldn't say — please, sir, I don't want to imply that I re-
joined the Communist Party in order to get a job.
Senator Symington. How could it help you to rejoin the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Dash. Because I got the job at Federal, the people there who
were in the cell knew me to have been a member before, and therefore
it was more or less implied that I should be active in that organization.
Senator Symington. In other words, you could not have gotten tba
job unless you rejoined the Communist Party ?
Mr. Dash. No, I do not know whether that is trRe or not, sir.
Senator Symington. But you wanted to play it safe ?
Mr. Dash. That is right. You just put it correctly. I wanted to
play it safe and therefore I joined.
Senator Symington. Is that true of other employees in the FTL?
Mr. Dash. I do not know, sir. I don't think so. I don't think any-
body else there was in my particular situation.
Seantor Symington. Did anybody else rejoin the company or re-
join the Communist Party around the time that you -did, to the best
of your knowledge?
Mr. Dash. Nobody in that cell, sir, had I known from any previous
connection.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this question
Senator Mundt. How did they know you? You said they knew
you.
Mr. Dash. That is right, sir. That is a very legitimate question.
There were people in the union who were known as Communists. I
couldn't swear to it that they had a card or anything like that, but I
had known them to attend meetings before. They had known me to
attend meetings, and they introduced me to the existing Communist
Party cell members at the FTL. Actually, only one member. They
introduced me to Mr. Hyman.
Senator Potter. Where did the pressure come from? From the
personnel man in the company, or from the union ?
Mr. Dash. There was no pressure whatsoever, sir. It was a natural
sequence of events. There was no
Senator Potter. Who were you trying to impress or convince ?
Mr. Dash. I wasn't trying to convince anybody, sir. I do not say
that my ideologies did not agree with that at the time. I am not trying
to imply that I was not a Communist at the time. I probably was.
Senator Potter. You did state, however, that it made it easier for
you, you felt, to rejoin the party.
Mr. Dash. That is right, sir.
Senator Potter. My question relates to who were you trying to
impress or to convince ? Who was going to intercede in your behalf
because you were a member of the party ?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 433
Mr. Dash. I don't know.
Senator Potter. Did it make it easier for you to reestablish your
affiliation there, or was it some representative of the company who
indicated it would be easier
Mr. Dash. You asked the question twice. If you will permit me,
I will answer it.
Senator Potter. Yes. I wanted to make sure you understood the
question.
Mr. Dash. I understand that. I do not think, sir, that had I not
been known as a previous Communist, that I would not have gotten the
job. Had I been just a union member with the same experience and
present at the same time, I am fully convinced I would have gotten
the job just as well even though I have not been known, previously
known, as a member of the Communist Party.
Senator Syminton. Well, then, if you say that, though, how does
your statement that you rejoined for economic reasons stand up ? Did
you get more salary as a member of the CP than you did
Mr. Dash. No, sir.
Senator Symington. How do you make the statement stand up ?
Mr. Dash. I just explained that I do not wish to imply that my
ideologies were not entirely not Communist. I undoubtedly had re-
tained many ideologies that were still Communist. But I did not
Senator Symington. Would you say that your basic philosophy
is to be a member of the party when it helps you economically and
not to be a member when it hurts you economically?
Mr. Dash. I would say that is true of a lot of members of the Com-
munist Party.
Senator Symington. All I can say to you is I hope you do not rejoin
it later on.
Mr. Dash. You can rest assured that I never intend to.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if this isn't what perhaps
the witness is trying to tell us, perhaps not very clearly
Mr. Dash. If there isn't anything clear, sir, I would be glad to
answer it.
Senator Mundt. I wonder if this is not perhaps what motivated
you to join the party: You were out of the party and out of a job.
You went back to work, finding yourself there associated with men
who knew you as a Communist, at some previous time. So you
figured if you did not reaffiliate with these Communists, they would
look upon you with something like a jaundiced eye, somebody who
would be against them. So to protect yourself in your job, you re-
associated with the people who otherwise would consider you a spy
upon them, is that about it ?
Mr. Dash. I didn't get the last part of it.
Senator Mundt. I say you felt that otherwise these Communists
would think that since you left the party, they would consider you a
spy upon them, so you associated back with them ?
Mr. Dash. Not necessarily a spy against them, but certainly con-
sidering that to be more or less looked up by them, especially since
I went to the union to get the job.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you working when you joined the Com-
munist Party back in 1933, Mr. Dash ?
Mr. Dash. Well, if the committee desires to proceed with the ques-
tioning, could I again ask that it be heard in executive session ?
434 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. Cohn. I just thought you said a few moments ago you would
now insist that you be heard in open session.
Mr. Dash. That is not the sense of my request, sir. I want the
committee to evaluate what I have to say, unless they have already
evaluated it.
The Chairman. May I say, Mr. Dash, I have received a complete
and detailed report from the investigators. Some of the information
that you can give us is interesting, to say the least. I think it is
information which the public should have. However, in view of the
fact that you say you are willing to give us all the information, I can
see no objection to having you step down now. We have other wit-
nesses here this morning. We can hear you this afternoon in execu-
tive session, unless the other Senators object to that.
Senator Potter. I think it would be better.
The Chairman. He has some extremely interesting information to
give us.
Senator Mundt. I would like to ask a question or two in open hear-
ing, just to find out whether at any time when you were a Communist
you were in a Communist meeting with the first witness who was
here this morning, Leo Kantrowitz. Do you know Leo Kantrowitz ?
Mr. Dash. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Did you know him to be a Communist ?
Mr. Dash. He was a member of the FTL cell.
Senator Mundt. Did you sit in Communist meetings with Leo Kan-
trowitz ?
Mr. Dash. I will corroborate the testimony of Peter A. Gragis.
His testimony has been correct.
Senator Mundt. Both you and Mr. Gragis sat in meetings with
him ?
Mr. Dash. Right, sir.
Senator Mundt. There is no question whatsoever in your mind but
that Leo Kantrowitz was at that time a Communist?
Mr. Dash. That is correct, sir.
Senator Mundt. I have no further questions.
Senator Symington. I have one question. Were you a member of
an espionage ring ?
Mr. Dash. No, sir ; absolutely not. Never have been and never in-
tend to be.
The Chairman. You may step down, Mr. Dash. We will hear you
at 2 o'clock in room 357, in executive session.
Mr. Dash. Thank you, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Gragis, could we ask you to come back again ?
FURTHER TESTIMONY OF PETER A. GRAGIS
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Gragis, the list of people you have named as mem-
bers of this Communist cell at FTL is yourself, John Saunders, Harry
Hyman, Frank McGee, Leo Kantrowitz, Ruth Levine, Harvey Dash,
Ernest Pataki. I would now like to ask you about a man named Al-
bert Shadowitz. Did you know Albert Shadowitz ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes. I also knew him very well.
Mr. Cohn. Was Albert Shadowitz employed at the Federal Tele-
communications Laboratory ?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 435
Mr, Gragis. He was.
Mr. Cohn. Did you also know him as a Communist?
Mr. Gragis. Yes. With these other names I have mentioned, I
knew him in the same way, as a member of the Communist Party cell in
the FTL.
Mr. Cohn. Was he active in that cell ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, he was.
Mr. Cohn. Do you recall anything particular about any of his activ-
ities ?
Mr. Gragis. No, not any particular thing, but a lot of things.
Mr. Cohn. Did he attend Communist cell meetings?
Mr. Gragis. Yes; quite regularly.
Mr. Cohn. Quite regularly, is that right ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, this Albert Shadowitz has already ap-
peared before the committee in public session.
The Chairman. Is Mr. Dash still here ? That will be 3 o'clock, Mr.
Dash, instead of 2 this afternoon.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Shadowitz appeared before this committee in public
session, Mr. Chairman. He did not invoke the fifth amendment, but
he invoked the first amendment in answering questions about Com-
munist membership and said he had done so on the advice of Dr. Albert
Einstein.
The Chairman. Right.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Gragis, at this point you have now named affirma-
tively Mr. Shadowitz as a member of the Communist Party, is that
right ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. I would like to go on to this, on the subject of Dr. Ein-
stein. While you were a member of the party, did you participate in
any Communist-front activities?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you make any contributions to any Communist
fronts ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir ; over a period of time, yes.
Mr. Cohn. Was one of those Communist fronts to which you made
a contribution the American Committee for Spanish Freedom ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. And that, Mr. Chairman, is on the
Mr. Gragis. Not — Mr. Cohn, I wish to state that when I made these
contributions they were not out of my own pocket, that they were the
result of these contributions made by myself and those people other-
wise who were working with me on the same job in the FTL.
Mr. Cohn. Did you do the collecting?
Mr. Gragis. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. You did the collecting. Now, the citation of the Ameri-
can Committee for Spanish Freedom, it was cited by Attorney General
Clark, it has been cited by the House committee, so on and so forth,
Mr. Chairman.
Now, to whom was your contribution for this Communist front made
payable ?
Mr. Gragis. To Dr. Albert Einstein.
436 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. Cohn. And have you produced for us a canceled check made out
to Dr. Albert Einstein for $21, signed Peter A. Gragis?
Mr. Gragis. Yes; I have, and also to the Federal Bureau of
Investigation.
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. And the back of the check shows an endorse-
ment by Albert Einstein and the fact the check was deposited to the
order of the American Committee for Spanish Freedom ?
Mr. Gragis. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. And the check is dated November 16, 1945 ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes ; that is also correct.
The Chairman. Was this money collected from members of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Gragis. No.
The Chairman. Were any of those who contributed Communists ?
Mr. Gragis. No ; I don't believe so, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You collected this on your job, is that right ?
Mr. Gragis. During lunch or before work or after work. That is
correct.
Senator Symington. Did they know they were contributing to the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, sir; because they saw the letter of Dr. Einstein,
and I think there was, although I wouldn't swear to it, a petition at-
tached thereto.
Senator Symington. Eoughly what did the letter say?
Mr. Gragis. That the purpose of the fund was to help financially
those people who had fought in the Spanish revolution in 1936 and
1938, and who were now hospitalized, wounded, or children of those
parents.
Senator Symington. Did it say that is was going to help the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Gragis. No, it did not say that.
Senator Symington. Then you were collecting the money under
false pretenses, were you not ?
Mr. Gragis. May I ask just one question, sir? When was that
organization found to be a subversive organization ?
Senator Symington. I do not know what organization you are talk-
ing about. I have already forgotten the name. But in effect you
are saying that you were collecting money for the Communist Party
in order to send it to Dr. Albert Einstein. That, in fact, implies that
Dr. Albert Einstein was a Communist.
Now, I think you ought to clarify that situation, unless you know
that he was a Communist. Do you know whether he was a Com-
munist ?
Mr. Gragis. No.
Senator Symington. Did you ever see him in your life?
Mr. Gragis. No.
Senator Symington. And the only reason that you were collecting
the money was because you had a letter from him asking him to help
somebody ? Spain, is that it ?
Mr. Gragis. That is correct.
Senator Symington. But the only people that you went to were
Communists in the plant ?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 437
Mr. Gragis. No, sir; they were not Communists.
Senator Symington. Then they were non-Communists ?
Mr. Gragis. They were non-Communists.
Senator Symington. Then how did they know that you were
collecting the money for the Communist Party?
Mr. Gragis. They did not know that I was collecting money for
the Communist Party.
Senator Symington. I thought you said they did know you were
collecting for the Communist Party.
Mr. Gragis. No, I tried to point out that Dr. Einstein's letter clearly
pointed out that it was for the purpose of these veterans of the Spanish
Civil War, not the Communist Party.
Senator Symington. I see. So you are making no allegations of
any kind against Dr. Albert. Einstein or anybody ?
Mr. Gragis. No, but as I look back on it now, I can see that he was,
as far back as that, abetting the subversive organizations here in this
country.
Senator Symington. That he was abetting subversive organizations
in this country ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes.
Senator Symington. As you look back on it now ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes.
Senator Symington. May I ask you just a couple of more questions ?
Why did you join the Communist Party?
Mr. Gragis. I think I did it purely on ideals back in 1934 or 1935,
although at a previous session before this committee I said 1936. I
was in error. It was in 1934-35, I was going to Nassau Collegiate
Center in Nassau County, Long Island. Some of the Communist
agitators brought my attention to what I felt was a violation of the
civil liberties, the Angelo Herndon case and the Scottsboro boys. I
signed that petition. At that time I was prorepublican and I was not
sympathetic to Communism.
I found myself, however, afterward going around and justifying
my position to my friends.
Senator Symington. And why did you leave the party?
Mr. Gragis. Well, during the period of time that I was in the party,
which was some 20 years, almost regularly, but there were times when
I was not in the party also, and this knowledge is complete — in both
Senator McCarthy's committee and at the FBI
Senator Symington. I am sorry. I was not at the hearing. I was
out of the country. That is the last question.
Mr. Gragis. I had questions that I raised and discussed with the
Communists, such as the nonaggression pact. I could not justify that
and so stated. However, when war broke out shortly after, Russia
was on our side and I was very happy, and I was very happy until
the San Francisco conference of the United Nations. Afterward,
however, there were many things that caused me to change my mind,
but particularly the war in Korea, the treason of the Rosenbergs, and
the proven espionage of Senator McCarthy's committee, that the Com-
munist Party was leading here in this country.
Senator Potter. I think probably we should put this one factor in
its proper perspective. I am not sure it is in there now. It concerns
the reference to Dr. Einstein. When you received the letter from
438 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Dr. Einstein, was he an officer of this organization — what is the name
of the organization ?
Mr. Cohn. The American Committee for Spanish Freedom. Sena-
tor Potter, I wanted to say at that point, by the way, it was cited as
Communist by Attorney General Tom Clark in a letter to the Loyalty
Review Board. But the letter was released, made public, on April
27, 1949.
Senator Symington. What is the date of the check ?
Mr. Cohn. The check is 1945. There are two points on that. We
do not know the actual date of the letter, and of course the citations of
the Attorney General are made on the basis of the past activities of the
organization, not on the date on which it is released. But the public
citation was made public on April 27, 1949.
Senator Potter. That is a point. I think in all fairness to all con-
cerned we should have it in proper perspective.
As I understand, Dr. E'instein was an officer of this organization at
the time, or don't you recall ?
Mr. Gragis. Well, I recall a personal letter that he had with his
name up on the top and the signature down below.
Senator Potter. And you collected the funds from your fellow
workers ?
Mr. Gragis. That is correct.
Senator Potter. And who had, on the basis of the message that was
in the letter concerning the Loyalist supporters of the Spanish
Revolution
Mr. Gragis. Yes, Senator Potter. I presented the letter, and al-
though I am not too sure, I have handled a lot of -petitions, but I
thought there was also attached a petition which those that contrib-
uted signed.
Senator Potter. Those people that contributed to this fund had no
knowledge that this was an organization which was subversive be-
cause at that time apparently it had not been publicly designated as a
subversive organization, is that correct?
Mr. Gragis. That is not necessarily true, Senator. Because the war
even in Spain in 1936 and 1938 was pointed out by a lot of newspapers
as being a Communist-inspired revolution.
Senator Potter. I am talking about the organization as such. It
had not been publicly designated as a Communist- front organization ?
Mr. Gragis. Except perhaps by the press. Not by, to my knowl-
edge, any responsible Government official, that is true.
Senator Potter. I am talking now about the average man who con-
tributed for this organization. Do you think that the average man
who made his contribution was a Communist sympathizer at the time ?
Mr. Gragis. He could have been, but I would not know for sure.
I realize what you are trying to bring out, that some of these people
might have saw the name of Einstein and felt that it was a charitable
cause and therefore contributed. Yes, I also believe that some of
those people that signed, signed on that basis. But I cannot speak
on what was in the minds of those 20 other people who together with
myself gave the dollar bill.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the counsel could tell
us the dates of the hearings which were held by the House Commit-
tee on Un-American Activities, of which I was a member at the time.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 439
It was some time prior to 1949. They made an investigation of these
Spanish-aid organizations, and make a report and clearly classified
them as Communist and cited and sent to jail some of the officers who
refused to reveal the sources of income. So there was a considerable
amount of widespread publicity about these organizations well ahead
of 1949.
I think you should find the date and put that in there and be sure
it is the same organization.
Mr. Cohn. That will be done, Senator Mundt. We will get that
and insert that into the record.
(The item referred to above was marked "Exhibit No. 24" and will
be found in the appendix on p. 472.)
Senator Mundt. I do not recall which side of 1945 that was.
The Chairman. I may say it was cited also by the California Com-
mittee in 1948. Of course, the date of the citation is unimportant,
insofar as the officers are concerned. They obviously knew this was a
Communist dominated and controlled organization long before it was
cited. Take, for example, the Communist Party was not cited until —
I do not known when, but long after it was well known to be a con-
spiracy. I think there is no doubt about the fact that the officials
of these Communist fronts knew they were Communist fronts, unless
they are extremely naive.
As Mr. Buckley points out, the Communist Party itself was not
cited until 1947. We would not take that to mean that a man who was
a part of the conspiracy in 1946 did not know what he was doing.
Sentor Potter. The purpose of my question, Mr. Chairman, was to
find out whether these men who contributed funds knew what they
were doing or whether they thought they were giving it to a charitable
organization. That was the main purpose.
The Chairman. I may say the reason that the names of those who
contributed were not asked for and are not asked for is because we
assume that certainly a percentage of them did not know they were
contributing to a Communist-controlled organization. The officials
of that organization obviously knew it was a Communist-controlled
organization.
Mr. Cohn. Let's see if we can finish with Mr. Gragis.
Mr. Gragis, there is an additional lady whom you named as a mem-
ber of this cell.
We could not get her here, Mr. Chairman. She will be here to-
morrow morning. There is one witness in addition to Mr. Gragis
who will name this lady as a member of the Communist cell. We will
have this other witness here. I do not want to hold Mr. Gragis. We
have detained him for so many days that I do not want to hold him
here any further.
Mr. Chairman, with that I have no further questions of Mr. Gragis,
other than thanking him for coming down.
The Chairman. Are you going to have him name this other witness ?
Mr. Cohn. I would rather not have that in the public record until
she is here.
Senator Potter. Has she been named in the executive session ?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
The Chairman. We will make that public when she is here.
40558— 54— pt. 10 3
440 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Senator Mundt. Let me ask you a question. Has it been established
in the record that Mr. Gragis knew Mr. Kantrowitz as a Communist ?
Mr. Cohn. Yes. You knew Leo Kantrowitz as a member of the
party, is that right ?
Mr. Gragis. A short while ago I identified him from this seat and
said he was a member of the same cell.
The Chairman. We will adjourn until what time tomorrow? Do
I understand you cannot be here in the morning ?
Senator Symington. No, Mr. Chairman. Senator McClellan and
I have an Appropriations.
The Chairman. You would like to hear it, I assume?
Senator Symington. Yes.
The Chairman. We can make it in the afternoon. What time
would be agreeable ?
Mr. Gragis. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. You won't have to come back.
Mr. Gragis. May I, before I go, make a very brief observation?
The Chairman. You certainly may.
Mr. Gragis. It is based on my appearance before your executive
session and my appearance here on several occasions, and numerous
interviews with your youthful investigator. When I first was called
before you rcommittee, frankly, sir, I was very much terrified actually.
The Communists in their propaganda, the leftist press, which I saw,
and even respectable newspapers, such as even down here in Washing-
ton, the Washington Post, which I have been reading, back home the
metropolitan press, the New York Herald Tribune, and my own paper
that I subscribe to, News Day, had pointed out that you were very
abusive, that you were crucifying people, persecuting and everything
else. I heard here a moment ago somewhat the same charge. My
experience has been quite the contrary. I have, I think, been very
understanding^ treated. I have been, I think, highly respected
despite the fact that for some 20 years I had been more or less an
active Communist.
This is one other thing I think I would like to say, sir, and that is
the fact that I am sure there are other people who made this mistake
that I have, and who no doubt today have that same fear. If it would
be possible to talk to them, I would like to tell them that based upon
my own experience, that they should, knowing of the nature of the
Communist conspiracy, the treason, the sabotage, come to your com-
mittee, Senator McCarthy, and that you will help them to expose this
conspiracy and that you will make them feel good in that they will be
able to defend democracy and free America.
The Chairman. I think you make an excellent point and I certainly
appreciate it. As I understand, your thought is this, that if the com-
mittee had not been given horns by certain elements of the press, that
we might have a greater number of ex-Communists who would be
willing to come before us and testify, but that a fear has been instilled
into them. They have been taught by the Communist press and the
lef twing press that they might be abused and for that reason you think
information about the conspiracy which we ordinarily would get has
in effect been barred from the committee ?
Mr. Gragis. Yes, but I just do not say the press, sir. I say there
are speeches made by leftists over the radio today. You pick it up
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 441
in magazines. They are more or less in line with the leftists and it
is not just the press alone.
Senator Mundt. Is it your feeling as a man who has been a Com-
munist for a considerable period of time, and who must know a lot
more about what Communists think than any member of our com-
mittee, that if some way or other we could get across the fact through-
out the country that there is an agency like this committee, there is
an agency like the FBI, where present Communists could go who have
decided themselves that they are in a pretty bad and sordid business,
if we could get the idea across that they could go there and make a
clean breast of it, and be given an opportunity to reidentify themselves
with allegiance to America, that there would be quite a number of
Communists who would come forward with that information ?
Mr. Gragis. I believe so.
Senator Symington. As I understand it, you are going to ask all
members that you know in the Communist Party to come to the Gov-
ernment and confess that they have been members of these cells, is
that correct?
Mr. Gragis. If they are at all sympathetic, sir. I think after this
appearance and the executive appearance and my cooperation with
the McCarthy committee, I won't have a chance to talk to them.
Senator Symington. But you are going to try to get as many Com-
munists as you can to come before the Congress and make a confession
of that?
Mr. Gragis. That is right.
Senator Symington. I think that is a fine thing.
Senator Mundt. As I understand it, the purpose of this last state-
ment that you made, and the full realization that the press will carry
this, because I think the press is going to be fair, that will give people
an opportunity to read your experience, and that may induce others
to come?
Mr. Gragis. But there is only one thing, I think, that I would like
you gentlemen to know about, what I felt hurt me to some extent as
in the appearance here last week, and that is the fact that I, who have
been exposing these Communists, as you see, was made to appear by
the metropolitan press and the local press that I was trying to dodge
questions from the committee and that I was pussyfooting on the
issue, which I certainly was not at the time. That publicity did not
help me. It hurt me, I believe.
The Chairman. I may say in that connection, as far as the Chair is
concerned, I am fully satisfied that you have given the committee all
the information you can, that you have cooperated fully with the
FBI. I think you have performed a tremendous service. It would
have been much easier for you to just refuse to talk to our investi-
gators, to refuse to give them any information. You did a difficult
task, a rather thankless one, and you can be sure that you will catch
all hell from certain elements of the press. You won't be the favorite
of the Daily Worker. You can be sure of that. You have performed
a great service, and I for one certainly want to thank you very, very
much.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 10 p. m., the committee was recessed subject to
call.)
AEMY SIGNAL CORPS- SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
THURSDAY, MARCH 11, 1954
United States Senate,
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the
Committee on Government Operations,
W ashing ton , D. C.
The subcommittee met at 2 : 30 p. m., pursuant to recess, in room
318, Senate Office Building, Senator Joseph K. McCarthy (chairman)
presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin;
Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota ; Senator John L.
McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Senator Henry M. Jackson, Demo-
crat, Washington; and Senator Stuart Symington, Democrat,
Missouri.
Present also : Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel ; Robert Francis Kennedy,
chief counsel to minority ; Francis P. Carr, executive director ; Daniel
G. Buckley, assistant counsel; James Juliana, investigator; and Ruth
Y. Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Have the record show that all of the members of the subcommittee
were notified of the time and place of the hearing, that the hearing
was scheduled for this morning originally, but because some Senators
felt they could not attend, it was shifted to this afternoon.
Who is your first witness, Mr. Cohn ?
Mr. Cohn. Mrs. Annie Lee Moss.
The Chairman. Mrs. Moss? Will you raise your right hand and
be sworn. In this matter now in hearing before the committee, do you
solemnlv swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth?
Mrs. Moss. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANNIE LEE MOSS (ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, GEORGE F. C. HAYES, WASHINGTON, D. C.)
Mr. Cohn. May we get your full name for the record ?
Mrs. Moss. Annie Lee Moss.
Mr. Cohn. M-o-s-s?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. And where do you reside now ?
Mrs. Moss. 1244 Evarts Street NE.
The Chairman. Mrs. Moss, let me say for the record, and for your
information, for the information of your counsel, that you are not
here because you were considered important in the Communist appa-
ratus. We have the testimony that you are or have been a Communist.
443
444 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
We are rather curious, though, to know how someone like yourself,
who is known to your superiors to have a Communist record, how
you suddenly were shifted from a worker in a cafeteria to the code
room. In other words, I am today much more interested in the
handling of your case by your superiors than in your own personal
activities. However, counsel will question you about your own
activities.
Mr. Hayes. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. I will not hear from counsel. You have been told
what the rule is. If you have anything to say, say it through your
client.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, I do want to put into the record at this
time the statement you ordered in connection with the Federal Tele-
communications Laboratories. As you know, there has been con-
siderable testimony showing Communist infiltration and lax se-
curity conditions at the Federal Telecommunications Laboratories.
We think in all fairness the record should likewise indicate that the
security department presently functioning there under the direction of
Mr. Robert Chasen, who is a former special agent of the Federal
Bureau of Investigation, has done a superb job in cleaning out Com-
munists at the FTL, and in taking proper security measures to pre-
vent the recurrence of a situation such as we had there before. I think
Mr. Chasen and Mr. Kane, Ed Kane, who is the security manager
there, deserve commendation, not only for the cleanup job they have
been doing, but also for the splendid cooperation they have given
to the committee.
The Chairman. I may say, Mr.Cohn, that I agree -heartily. I have
been very, very favorably impressed by the present security setup
over at Federal Telecommunications Lab. I have been very pleas-
antly impressed and I might say somewhat surprised, at the complete
all-out cooperation that our committee has been getting from Fed-
eral Telecommunications Lab.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mrs. Moss, have you been employed by the De-
partment of the Army at the Pentagon ?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, I have.
Mr. Cohn. And when did you commence that employment ? When
did you start working there ?
Mrs. Moss. December 18, 1950.
Mr. Cohn. December 18, 1950. And where did you work before
that?
Mrs. Moss. I had been out of work for a long time, but I worked
for a shorter period from about May until about the 28th of August
at Elite Laundry.
Mr. Cohn. When was your last Government job before you went
with the Pentagon?
Mrs. Moss. The General Accounting Office.
Mr. Cohn. In the General Accounting Office. Did you begin work
at the General Accounting Office in 1945?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. And prior to that time had you been a cafeteria worker?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, I had.
Mr. Cohn. And in the year 1953 do you recall where you lived ?
Mrs. Moss. Yes. Up until June 23, 1954, 1 lived in the vicinity from
525% Second Street NE.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 445
Mr. Cohn. Second Street NE ?
Mrs. Moss. Second Street NE. and for a 2-week period we lived in
the 600 block of Second Street.
Mr. Cohn. And you were a cafeteria worker, is that right?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, I was.
Mr. Cohn. While in the Pentagon, since 1950, have you had any
connection with coded messages ? Have you ever handled coded mes-
sages ?
Mrs. Moss. No more than to transmit them.
Mr. Cohn. Pardon me?
Mrs. Moss. No more than to transmit the messages.
Mr. Cohn. No more than to transmit them?
Mrs. Moss. Receive or to transmit messages was all I had to do.
And in the code room, I have never been in the code room in my life.
Mr. Cohn. Did you transmit coded messages?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. And were some of those coded messages classified ?
Mrs. Moss. Well, I assume all classified messages was coded.
Mr. Cohn. They were all classified?
Mrs. Moss. I assume they were coded messages, classified messages
coded.
The Chairman. Do you know the type of classification? Do you
know if they were secret, top secret, confidential ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
The Chairman. In other words, you would not know the degree of
classification ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You say you transmitted these messages ; is that right ?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever have any messages in clear text ?
Mrs. Moss. Well, there is a very few in clear text.
Mr. Cohn. There was some in clear text that you handled ; is that
right?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. And you handled those as well as the coded messages?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. And which you transmitted?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time did you have access to
these coded messages which you transmitted and to these messages
in clear text, from 1950 until when ? When did you start and when
did you stop?
Mrs. Moss. Well, it was 1951 when they started, because I started
on the 18th day of December. We were in training for 6 weeks, and
I think that would make us in January. I think that would put it in
January.
Mr. Cohn. Is it correct that there was a period of time after you
went to work when you were awaiting clearance ?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. And you did not work on these messages then ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; we were in training.
Mr. Cohn. But after you got clearance, I think in 1951, you began
working on these coded messages and clear text messages?
446 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. And you continued doing that work until some short
time ago ?
Mrs. Moss. Yes. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Then, I believe, around the period of time you were
called before the committee, they changed you over to the supply
room ; is that right ?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. And after the committee held some hearings you were
suspended ?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. I see.
Now, Mrs. Moss, you have told us you lived from 1943
Mrs. Moss. Four.
Mr. Cohn. I am getting back to 1942 and 1943. You told us that
you lived on Second Street NE. and you were a cafeteria worker and of
course your name is Annie Lee Moss. The committee has had testi-
mony with which I know you and your counsel are familiar to the
effect that you were at that time a member of the Northeast Club of
the Communist Party. Is that testimony true ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; it is not ; not at any time have I been a member
of a Communist Party and I have never seen a Communist card.
Mr. Cohn. You have never even seen a Communist card ?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever attended any Communist meetings?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; I have never attended any Communist meetings.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever subscribed to the Daily Worker?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir. I didn't subscribe to the Daily Worker and I
wouldn't pay for it.
The Chairman. Will the photographers please — . While the wit-
ness is testifying, I wonder if you would not get between her and
counsel. I wish you would not take flash pictures while she is
testifying.
Would you rather not have your picture taken while you are
testifying?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
The Chairman. Then will you gentlemen move to one side?
As I said many times before, I know you young men have a job, and
you are sent over to take pictures.
Photographer. Is it all right to take them without the flash?
The Chairman. You can take them if you do not use flashbulbs,
but do not get between the witness and counsel.
Mrs. Moss, do I understand you to say that you have never been a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; I have not.
The Chairman. Mrs. Markward, who was working for the FBI,
who joined the Communist Party under orders from the FBI, has
testified that while she never met you personally at a Communist Party
meeting, that your name was on the list of Communists who were
paying dues. Can you shed any light upon that?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir. I do not even know what the dues are or where
they were paid.
AKMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 447
The Chairman. Do I understand you have never paid any money
to the Communist Party? Is that correct?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
The Chairman. You have never paid any dues to anyone whom
you thought was collecting them for the Communist Party?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
The Chairman. And you have never attended any Communist
meetings ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; I have not.
The Chairman. Mr. Cohn.
Mr. Cohn. With reference to your testimony about the Daily
Worker, isn't it a fact that you regularly received the Daily Worker
and that you arranged to receive it through Rob Hall, who was one
of the leading Communists in the District of Columbia ?
Mrs. Moss. Eob Hall brought that paper to my house, where I was
rooming, one Sunday morning, and my son tells me that my husband
told him not to bring that paper back there any more. And he said
he paid him for whatever he had, and he didn't bring it any more, and
we didn't get this Communist paper any more until after we had
moved southwest, at 72 R Street.
The Chairman. Did you know Robert Hall?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir; not personally.
The Chairman. He came to your house, you say, one Sunday morn-
ing?
Mrs. Moss. Yes. That is where I was rooming one Sunday.
The Chairman. Did your husband give Robert Hall any money
that Sunday morning?
Mrs. Moss. I wasn t there that morning.
The Chairman. You said your son told you something about it?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did your son tell you whether or not Robert Hall
collected money?
Mrs. Moss. He told me his daddy gave him some money and told
him not to come back there with those papers any more. In fact,
he asked that my son sell those papers and his daddy said that he
couldn't sell the papers, and he paid him for whatever he had. I
don't know how many it was.
The Chairman. I think if you would not lean quite so close to the
microphone, we could hear you better.
I have some difficulty hearing you. Is your husband living?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir; he is dead.
The Chairman. And you say you personally did not know Robert
Hall?
Mi*s. Moss. No, sir.
The Chairman. That you were not there when he came to the
house ?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
The Chairman. Do you know what business Robert Hall had with
your husband besides merely delivering the copy of the Daily Worker?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; I do not.
The Chairman. I am afraid I am going to have to excuse myself.
I have a rather important appointment tonight which I have to work
on right now. I wonder, Senator Mundt, if you would take over as
chairman.
40558— 54— pt. 10 4
448 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Senator Mundt. All right.
( At this point the chairman left the hearing room.)
Senator Mundt (presiding). Let us go back to the time that Rob-
ert Hall came to your home Sunday morning. Did you see him at that
time ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; I did not see him at that time. In fact, I didn't
remember the man's name until my son reminded we who he was. I
had to ask him what was the man's name. But I didn't even remem-
ber his name. I remember seeing a Robert Hall around the union
hall where we went to our union meetings, and I presumed he was the
same man.
Senator Mundt. I am talking now about the Sunday morning when-
this man came to your home and left the Daily Worker.
Mrs. Moss. No, I wasn't there.
Senator Mundt. You were not there ?
Mrs. Moss. No, I wasn't there.
Senator Mundt. You did not see him ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir. But I knew it was a Robert Hall around the
union hall.
Senator Mundt. Who did he leave the papers with that Sunday
morning ?
Mrs. Moss. My husband was there and the lady with whom we were
rooming there.
Senator Mundt. Then you say you did not get any more Daily
Workers until you moved to a new address ?
Mrs. Moss. That is right,
Senator Mundt. Did you get some after that ?
Mrs. Moss. We got some for — I don't know, just for maybe a short
period. I don't know just how long it was. And then the man came
to collect for them and I told him that I did not subscribe for that
paper and I wasn't going to pay for it. Of course he raised quite a
fuss about it and I told him to come back the next day and see my hus-
band, and
Senator Symington. I did not hear the question.
Mr. Cohn. Would you read Senator Mundt's question ?
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
Senator Mundt. Do you want to finish ?
Mrs. Moss. No ; that is the answer. They didn't send it no more.
Senator Mundt. The end of it was the word "and" so you were going
to add something.
Mrs. Moss. Sir?
Senator Mundt. The end of the sentence was the word "and."
Mrs. Moss. And he didn't come back.
Senator Mundt. He did not come back ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir. And we didn't get any more papers.
Senator Mundt. You do not know whether that man was Mr. Hall;
or somebody else ?
Mrs. Moss. That was a white gentleman.
Senator Mundt. That was a what ?
Mrs. Moss. That was a white gentleman.
Senator Mundt. Is Mr. Hall a colored gentleman ?
Mrs. Moss. This was a white gentleman who came to collect.
Senator Mundt. I understand. But is Mr. Hall a colored gentle-
man?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 449
Mrs. Moss. Yes. The one whom I saw was colored.
Senator Mundt. These papers that came to you at this new address
which was 14th and L Street, were they delivered by messenger boy or
brought around in person or sent through the mail ?
Mrs. Moss. 14th and L?
Senator Mundt. How did you get the Communist Daily Workers
that came to your new address ?
Mrs. Moss. They came through the mail.
Senator Mundt. Addressed to you or your husband ?
Mrs. Moss. I don't know. I don't know which one they were ad-
dressed to. I didn't even read the paper.
Senator Mundt. Can you not remember ?
Mrs. Moss. They might have been addressed to me. I guess they
was. I don't remember who they were addressed to. But I will say
they was addressed to me.
Senator Mundt. You cannot remember if they were, but you think
they might have been addressed to you ?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir. I think so. I will take that.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time did you receive these
Daily Workers?
Mrs. Moss. I don't know. It wasn't for too long.
Senator Mundt. I believe you are leaning back too far now. Come
up part way.
Mrs. Moss. It wasn't for too long.
Mr. Cohn. It was not for too long a period of time. You knew
the Daily Worker was a Communist paper, did you not ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir. I sure didn't.
Mr. Cohn. Well, when you read it, wasn't it pretty clear to you ?
Mrs. Moss. I didn't read it, because I don't read any newspaper
very much.
Mr. Cohn. I see. And when it came to your house, you would not
read it, is that right ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Cohn. I am not quite clear on this : Did Robert Hall ever talk
to you about the Daily Worker ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir. Because I only saw Robert Hall around that
union place.
Mr. Cohn. He never talked to you about the Daily Worker?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Well, Mrs. Moss, isn't it a fact that when you testified
before the House Committee on Un-American Activities in executive
session you said under oath that Robert Hall had talked to you about
the Daily Worker and told you it was a good paper?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir; I have no knowledge of that. The man who
came to collect told me it was a good paper.
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, I do not know what the im-
portance of the fact whether or not the Daily Worker was or was not
read is. Is the purpose to show that the Daily Worker, if you read it,
that you are subversive?
Mr. Cohn. Senator, what we are trying to bring out is this : First
of all, Robert Hall was one of the three top Communists in the Com-
munist Party of the District of Columbia. We felt there was signifi-
cance to the fact that Robert Hall had come to the home of Mrs. Moss
450 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
and persuaded her or somebody in her house to subscribe to the Daily
Worker. Furthermore, there is a direct conflict in the testimony here
this afternoon and the testimony before the House Committee on Un-
American Activities where she stated that Hall described to her that
the Daily Worker was a good paper.
Senator Symington. May I suggest that she be asked how many
times she ever saw Mr. Hall ?
Mr. Cohn. About how many times did you see Mr. Hall?
Mrs. Moss. Well, each time I went to the union meeting.
Mr. Coiin. Could you estimate for Senator Symington over what
period of time you knew Mr. Hall, about how many times you had
seen him during that period ?
Mrs. Moss, Well, I believe the union meetings met about once a
month. But I didn't go to every meeting.
Senator Mundt. Did you know that Mr. Hall was a Communist?
Mrs. Moss. I beg your pardon ?
Senator Mundt. Did you know that Mr. Hall was a Communist ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir. I never had heard of communism until 1948
when this first hearing came up, and I asked them then what was that.
Senator Mundt. You had not heard about communism ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator Jackson. Mrs. Moss, what union meeting are you referring
to?
Mrs. Moss. It was the cafeteria union.
Senator Jackson. Cafeteria union?
Mrs. Moss. Yes.
Senator Jackson. Affiliated with what labor organization?
Mrs. Moss. CIO.
Senator Jackson. Where were you born ?
Mrs. Moss. Chester, S. C.
Senator Jackson. Did you grow up in South Carolina?
Mrs. Moss. Well, I lived in South Carolina until I was a good
sized girl and then we moved to North Carolina, Salisbury, N. C.
Senator Jackson. Did you go to school in South Carolina ?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. And North Carolina?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. How far did you get along in school?
Mrs. Moss. I didn't finish high school.
Senator Jackson. You didn't finish high school ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator Jackson. Was your husband a member of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator Jackson. While you were living out in Northeast did
you join any organization back in 1943 or 1944?
Mrs. Moss. None but the union. And we had to join that in order
to work.
Senator Jackson. You do not think you might have joined some
other organization that you did not know about ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir. I have no knowledge of any other organiza-
tion other than the union, the cafeteria union.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 451
Senator Jackson. You do not recall joining any organization that
met in homes?
Mrs. Moss. I haven't met any in anybody's home at any time. I
haven't been to a meeting in anyone's home.
Senator Jackson. In any church ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; not to a church, either.
Senator Jackson. I don't mean a church meeting, but I mean a
group that may have met in a church.
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator Jackson. You have no recollection of having joined any-
thing other than your union ?
Mrs. Moss. That is right, and we had to join that. After we had
worked awhile, they came around and gave us blanks. In other words,
they assembled us all in one room.
Senator Jackson. Did anyone ever ask you to join anything?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; nothing other than this union.
Senator Jackson. And how long did you stay in the union?
Mrs. Moss. I started working for the cafeteria on December 30, 1943,
and shortly after that we had been there some time, maybe about a
month, and they came around with blanks and they assembled us all
in one room and gave us these blanks and told us to fill out these union
blanks, that we would have to belong to the union if we were going to
work.
Senator Jackson. What kind of a blank did you fill out ?
Mrs. Moss. Well, it was a white blank paper and I did not under-
stand it because I had never belonged to a union before.
Senator Jackson. Did you read it ?
Mrs. Moss. We didn't have time.
Senator Jackson. You did not have time?
Mrs. Moss. No.
Senator Jackson. Well, could that have been the Communist Party
that you might have joined?
Mrs. Moss. I don't know.
Senator Jackson. It might have been ?
Mrs. Moss. I don't know. This union — I don't know whether it was
Communist or not, all I know is that they took our dues out before
our checks were issued.
Senator Jackson. But it related to your work ?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. But you did not read the blank paper ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir. I had some words with Mr. Harris about that,
because they were not giving me time to read it.
Senator Jackson. Who presented the application blank to you ?
Mrs. Moss. Mr. Harris.
Senator Jackson. And who is Mr. Harris, for the record ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Moss. I guess — he was the spokesman for the union, I guess.
And he was the one who was killed in 1947 by someone.
Senator Jackson. Was he ever known as a Communist?
Mrs. Moss. I didn't know him as one.
Senator Jackson. And then you paid dues to this organization?
Mrs. Moss. They took the dues out of our checks before they were
made up.
452 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Senator Jackson. They took the dues out of your check ?
Mrs. Moss. Before they were made up.
Senator Jackson. Then I assume it must have been a union,
then
Mrs. Moss. That is right. It is a union.
Senator Jackson. If they took it out of your paycheck.
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Senator Jackson. You worked for a private organization that serv-
iced the Government cafeterias?
Mrs. Moss. That is right. It is the welfare and recreation asso-
ciation.
Senator Jackson. But that is a private organization, business
organization ?
Mrs. Moss. Yes. It is 1135 21st Street NW.
Senator Jackson. And they had in effect a checkoff system on dues ?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Senator Jackson. That is all. Mr. Kennedy has something.
Mr. Kennedy. Mrs. Moss, did you say you knew Rob Hall or did
you not know Rob Hall ?
Mrs. Moss. I didn't know him personally. I wasn't a personal
friend of his. I saw him around the union hall.
Mr. Kennedy. But you never met him personally ?
Mrs. Moss. I guess I have spoke to him, but he wasn't a personal
friend of mine.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he the one who brought the Daily Workers to
your home, or was that somebody else ?
Mrs. Moss. My son said it was somebody else.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it Mr. Hall?
Mrs. Moss. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he signify it was the same Mr. Hall that you saw
around the union hall?
Mrs. Moss. Well, now, I don't know
Mr. Kennedy. Did you feel at that time it was the same ?
Mrs. Moss. I felt it was the same man.
Mr. Kennedy. Who came and collected the money at a later date ?
Mrs. Moss. This was a white gentleman who came to collect the
money.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Mr. Hall a colored gentleman, or
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. There is some confusion about it, is there not, Mr.
Cohn? Is the Rob Hall we are talking about the union organizer,
was he a white man or colored man ?
Mr. Cohn. I never inquired into his race. I am not sure. We can
check that, though.
Mr. Kennedy. I thought I just spoke to you about it.
Mr. Cohn. My assumption has been that he is a white man, but we
can check that.
Senator Symington. Let us ask this : The Bob Hall that you knew,
was he a white man ?
Mrs. Moss. He was colored, the one I knew of.
Senator Symington. Let's decide which Robert Hall we want to
talk about.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 453
Mr. Kennedy. When you spoke about the union organizer, you
spoke about Rob Hall and I think we all felt that was the colored
gentleman ?
Mr. Cohn. I was not talking about a union organizer, Bob. I was
talking about a Communist organizer who at that time, according
to the public record, was in charge of subscriptions for the Daily
Worker in the District of Columbia area.
Mr. Kennedy. Evidently it is a different Rob Hall.
Mr. Cohn. I don't know that it is. Our information is that it was
the same Rob Hall.
Senator McClellan. If one is black and the other is white, there is
a difference.
Mr. Cohn. I think that might better be something we should go into
and get some more exact information on.
Mr. Kennedy. I think so, too.
Mr. Cohn. As far as our information here, it is that Mrs. Moss tes-
tified in executive session that Rob Hall was the one who had come
with this Daily Worker subscription, and Rob Hall at that time was
the man in charge of the Daily Worker in the District of Columbia.
~We assume that that is the same Rob Hall.
Mr. Kennedy. Maybe we could check it.
Mr. Cohn. If there is another one, or anything like that, we will
certainly explore the possibility.
Senator Symington. Is the Robert Hall that you know a colored
man ?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. You are sure of that ?
Mrs. Moss. Yes ; I think — I am pretty sure that he was colored.
Senator Symington. Does he look like a colored man or does he
look more like a white man ?
Mrs. Moss. The man I have in mind as Robert Hall was a man
about my complexion.
Senator Symington. About your complexion.
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. It is fair to think that you did not think he
was a white man, is it not ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; I didn't.
Senator Symington. One of the reporters says that he is certain
that Robert Hali of the Daily Worker is a white man. I would like
to put that into the record.
Mr. Cohn. Were you present — let me approach it this way : Were
you present on that morning when your son says Robert Hall came to
your house with the Daily Worker ?
Mrs. Moss. No.
Mr. Cohn. You were not present then ?
Mrs. Moss. I was not there.
Mr. Cohn. And you do not know, in other words, whether the Rob-
ert Hall who came to your house with the Daily Worker subscriptions
was a white or colored person, as you did not see him. Is that right?
Mrs. Moss. I did not see him, but I assume it is the one I had seen
around the union hall.
Mr. Cohn. When you were told that a Robert Hall had come to get
subscriptions for the Daily Worker, you assumed it was the same
Robert Hall you had seen around the
454 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mrs. Moss. Around the union hall.
Mr. Cohn. But you were not present and did not see him and you
don't know whether it is the same one or different one ?
Mrs. Moss. That is right. I assumed it was the same man.
Senator Symington. I would like to make this clear in your inter-
est, as I see it. If the Robert Hall that you knew was a colored man,
then it is fair to say that the Robert Hail that the committee felt was
the one you knew, and had any conversations with, was not the Robert
Hall that you knew, is that right?
Mrs. Moss. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Let me ask you this, to carry this one step further. We
know why Robert Hall would be a likely one to come around with
subscriptions for the Daily Worker. Do you have any reason to
know why this Robert Hall who was colored and was in the union,,
and as far as we know not in the Communist Party, would come
around and ask you to subscribe or your family to subscribe to the
Daily Worker?
Mrs. Moss. I did not understand your question.
Mr. Cohn. My question is simply this : Can you tell us why, assum-
ing there are two Robert Halls here, can you tell us why this Robert
Hall who was in the union would come around and ask your family
to subscribe to the Daily Worker? Did you know him to be a
Communist?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Cohn. You did not know him to be a Communist?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. I see. All right.
Senator Mundt. Did you ever ask the Robert Hall who was in
the union whether he was the man who came and talked to your son
about these Daily Workers ?
Mrs. Moss. I didn't discuss it with him.
Senator Mundt. You never discussed with the Robert Hall in the
union
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. As to whether or not he was the Robert Hall who*
had come to your house ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; I did not.
Senator Mundt. Any other questions?
Senator McClellan. Did you give the name of the white man who
came to collect for the Daily Worker?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; I did not.
Senator McClellan. Do you know his name ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir; I never seen him before. I had not seen him
before.
Senator McClellan. Do you know whether his name was Robert
Hall?
Mrs. Moss. It might have been. He didn't tell me his name.
Senator McClellan. He did not tell you his name?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir. He just started raising a fuss with me about
it, and I told him to come back the next day to see my husband.
Senator McClellan. If his name was Robert Hall, it is not the
Robert Hall you knew ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 455
Mr. Cohn. Could you tell us this one thing, Mrs. Moss. You say
now this Robert Hall, whichever one it was, never talked to you about
the Daily Worker, is that right?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. Cohn. Could you explain why you told the House committee
that Robert Hall had described the Daily Worker as a good paper?
Mrs. Moss. Well, that was the man who came to — I am speaking
of the man who came to collect for the paper. He was trying to
explain to me that it was a good paper, in order for me to pay for
the paper.
Mr. Cohn. That was the white man who came to collect?
Mrs. Moss. That was the white man. I don't know what his name
was.
Mr. Cohn. The question was, "What did Robert Hall say to you
about the Daily Worker?" Your answer was, "Well, he described it
as a good paper."
Mrs. Moss. That was the gentleman who collected, or who came to
collect, and didn't get it.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have the wit-
ness describe for the record just exactly what her duties are for the
Government so we can have some impression as to whether she is in a
sensitive position or whether, assuming that the charges made against
her are true, she was in any position to do any harm. While I am
opposed to any Communist being in Government, it has not been
established to my satisfaction that this woman is a Communist.
I would like to know a little about the position, the nature of your
work, exactly what you do. I see you only get a salary of about $3,300
a year, which is a very low salary, I think, for any responsible position.
Mrs. Moss. I am a clerk-typist in the supply room.
Senator McClellan. Just what physical work do you perform with
respect to these messages ?
Mrs. Moss. Well, they have what they call project cards.
Senator McClellan. What ?
Mrs. Moss. Project cards.
Senator McClellan. Project cards.
Mrs. Moss. And on there you type maybe so many light bulbs, so
many light sockets, so many automobile batteries, or something like
that. That is the nature of it.
Senator McClellan. Is that the nature of the work you have been
doing?
Mrs. Moss. That is what they transferred me to do.
Senator Jackson. Just prior to that, what were you doing?
Senator McClellan. What were you doing prior to that? I am
talking about when this question arose as to your employment. What
were you doing then? The nature of that work is what I want to
know.
Mrs. Moss. Transmitting messages.
Senator McClellan. How did you transmit them? How did they
come in and how did you transmit them ? I would like to know just
what duties you were performing.
Mrs. Moss. They came in on a circuit.
Senator McClellan. A what ?
Mrs. Moss. A circuit. They came in on a circuit.
456 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Senator McClellan. A circuit ?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir ; and the operator at the circuit, when this mes-
sage was finished, there would be a Z at the end of it. This operator
would take this message off and there is a number on the end of the
message that corresponds with a pad that sits in this position [indi-
cating] and this pad also has a number on it. And she crosses this
number off, for the person to sign there. If it is a long message, you
roll it up and hang it on a string. We have no more to do with it
because there is someone to route it out.
Senator McClellan. You have nothing to do with routing it out?
Mrs. Moss. I did at first. When I first started out, I had to route
some of it out, too.
Senator McClellan. You had to handle that ?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir.
Senator McClellan. Did that require any knowledge of what the
message contained ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator McClellan. The one who received it from the circuit put
a mark on it or something to indicate where it was to go ?
Mrs. Moss. Just put a mark on it, to mark it off, to indicate that
the message came in. We would not have an open number on the pad.
And then they would roll it up and put it up on a string. The person
that is going to route it out, I don't care where it is going, where it
is going to is in plain text.
Senator McClellan. Where it is going to is what?
Mrs. Moss. Is in plain text.
Mr. Hayes. In plain text.
Senator McClellan. You mean written out so that anyone would
know where it is going ?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Senator McClellan. Was there any way for you to know what the
contents of those messages were ?
Mrs. Moss. There is no way in the world you would know.
Senator McClellan. Did you have time to decipher?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator McClellan. It was simply as a matter of routine, a me-
chanical process after they were received, getting them moving to
their proper destination ?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Senator McClellan. And that is all you did?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir; that is all.
Senator McClellan. Now, prior to the time you went to work for
the Government, when you were working in the cafeteria, would you
mind telling me what your salary was then, or what your earnings
were ?
Mrs. Moss. When I first started at the General Accounting Office,
my salary was $1,200, 1 believe.
Senator McClellan. How many years ago?
Mrs. Moss. That was
Senator McClellan. We can shorten this. What were your earn-
ings just before you went into this Government position?
Mrs. Moss. Well, it was about $45 every 2 weeks.
Senator McClellan. $45 ?
Mrs. Moss. Every 2 weeks.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 457
Senator McClellan. Every 2 weeks. So you did have some in-
crease. In other words, the Government job did pay more than you
were earning ?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Senator McClellan. Did you take a civil service examination to
qualify for the position ?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir.
Senator McClellan. Then you were called into service on the basis
of the examination you had taken ?
Mrs. Moss. Not by the General Accounting Office. We did not take
an examination for the General Accounting Office.
Senator McClellan. You did ?
Mrs. Moss. I did not. I had to take one
Senator McClellan. I am talking about tins position for the Army.
Mrs. Moss. No, sir. For the Army ?
Senator McClellan. Yes.
Mrs. Moss. Yes. I had to take a civil service examination. In fact,
I passed the civil service examination during the time I was working
for the General Accounting Office, as a machine operator exam.
Senator McClellan. How long before you actually began this em-
ployment had you taken this civil service examination and qualified
for it?
Mrs. Moss. I was a machine operator before I took the examination.
Senator McClellan. You were a machine operator ?
Mrs. Moss. At the General Accounting Office. I worked on a
machine there, too.
Senator McClellan. Then you took a civil service examination for
the position you got in the Army ?
Mrs. Moss. Well, I had took the civil service examination before
I left the General Accounting Office, and when I went to the employ-
ment office, looking for work, which I went to many of them, I had
to take the machine-operator's rating, and then they would make an
account of it, and make me up a record, and then I would have to go
back time after time.
Senator McClellan. Did any one from any organization, a Com-
munist organization or any other, help you in getting this position
with the Army?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator McClellan. Did you have any sponsor or any assistance
other than your qualifications and eligibility under the civil serv-
ice regulations?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator McClellan. You got the position on your own efforts ?
Mrs. Moss. On my own.
Senator McClellan. Plus your qualifications and civil service
status ?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Senator McClellan. I believe that is all.
Senator Mundt. Senator Symington ?
Senator Symington. Yes.
Mrs. Moss, what are you doing now? Are you working?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator Symington. Why not ?
458 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mrs. Moss. I was suspended.
Senator Symington. You were suspended?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir. Until this is over.
Senator Symington. By the
Mrs. Moss. By the Department of the Army.
Senator Symington. Department of the Army ?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. How long ago was that ?
Mrs. Moss. I believe it was
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Moss., The 25th of February.
Senator Symington. What reason did they give for suspending
you?
Mr. Hayes. Would you like to see it, Mr. Symington ?
Senator Symington. We can make it a part of the record. But I
would like the witness to answer it.
Mrs. Moss. "The immediate suspension is deemed necessary and ad-
visable in the interest of national security under the authority of Pub-
lic Law 733, 81st Congress, and Executive Order 10-450, pending
adjudication of your case under AR 620-220-1."
Senator McClellan. Did you read that the very best you could?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir ; I did.
Senator Symington. Have you ever, to the best of your knowledge
have you ever talked to a Communist in your life ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; not to my knowledge.
Senator Symington. Did you ever hear of Karl Marx ?
Mrs. Moss. Who is that?'
Senator Symington. I will pass the question.
You were born in South Carolina and moved to North Carolina and
then moved to Washington?
Mrs. Moss. That is right.
Senator Symington. Do you think you are a good American ?
Mr. Moss. Yes.
Senator Symington. Would you ever do anything to hurt your
country ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator Symington. Have you ever talked to anybody about espio-
nage ?
Mrs. Moss. What ?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator Symington. Have you ever had any information that you
received on your job that you passed on to anybody about these codes?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator Symington. Did anybody ever ask you for any of that in-
formation ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir. If they had, I would have reported it.
Senator Symington. You would have reported it ?
Mrs. Moss. I certainly would have.
Senator Symington. Has anybody ever asked you to join the Com-
munist Party ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 459
Senator Symington. Has anybody ever asked you to join any or-
ganization of any kind that you thought might be against the best
interests of the United States ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator Symington. What are you living on now ? Have you got
any savings?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator Symington. You have not ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator Symington. Where do you live ?
Mrs. Moss. 1244 Evarts Street NE.
Senator Symington. When is your rent next due ?
Mrs. Moss. Rent ?
Senator Symington. Rent.
Mrs. Moss. We are buying the house.
Senator Symington. You are buying the house ?
Mrs. Moss. Yes.
Senator Symington. Do you need work?
Mrs. Moss. Sure, I do.
Senator Symington. If you do not get work pretty soon, what are
you going to do ?
Mrs. Moss. I am going down to the welfare.
Senator Symington. Going down to the welfare ?
Mrs. Moss. Yes.
Senator Symington. Have you applied for a position outside of the
Army since you were suspended ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir. I have been sick in the bed under the doctor.
Senator Symington. Those are all the questions I have.
Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson ?
Mr. Kennedy ?
Mr. Kennedy. No questions.
Mr. Cohn. Part of the testimony of Mrs. Markward was to the
effect that another member of this club, and an active member of the
Communist Party at that time, at whose home Communist meetings
were held, was a woman named Hattie Griffin. Did you know Hattie
Griffin?
Mrs. Moss. I lived with Hattie Griffin for 2 weeks.
Mr. Cohn. At what address did you live with Hattie Griffin ?
Mrs. Moss. It was in the 600 block of Second Street. I don't re-
member the number.
Mr. Cohn. That is in accordance with Mrs. Markward's testimony
as well.
Now, when you were living with Hattie Griffin during that 2-week
period, did you know that she was a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that she was holding Communist meet-
ings in her home ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Cohn. You did not know that?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. She never told you that?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
460 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Senator Symington. Did you ever discuss with this woman — you
say you lived with her 2 weeks — did you ever discuss communism with
her ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator Symington. In any way?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator Symington. At any time?
Mrs. Moss. Because I did not know anything about it. I never
heard it until 1948.
Senator Symington. Was there anybody that she ever brought to
the house for meetings?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; not while we were there.
Senator Symington. Never once?
Mrs. Moss. Not while we were there.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions of this wit-
ness at this time. I will say this: We have the testimony of Mrs.
Markward, the undercover agent for the FBI, stating that an Annie
Lee Moss was a member, a dues-paying member of the Communist
Party, the Northeast Club of the Communist Party. We have cor-
roboration of that testimony by another witness who was called before
the committee and gave a sworn statement to the effect that she also
knew Mrs. Moss as a member of the Northeast Club of the Communist
Party.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make this
point : We* are making statements here against a witness who has come
and submitted to cross-examination. She has already lost her job.
She has been suspended because of this action. I am not defending
her. If she is a Communist, I want her exposed. But to make these
statements that we have corroborating evidence that she is a Com-
munist, under these circumstances, I think she is entitled to have it
produced here in her presence and let the public know about it and
let her know about it.
So, Mr. Chairman, I move that the evidence be produced.
Mr. Cohn. Senator, if I might explain, the only reason that evidence
has not been produced, as we explained on the day this developed, was
the witness
Senator McClellan. I will tell you how I feel about it. I do not
like to try people by hearsay evidence. I want to get the testimony
under oath.
Senator Mundt. The Chair will rule that the comment of Mr.
Cohn be stricken from the record. I think we better take it up in
executive session, whether we should try to produce a witness in public,
because the FBI may have her under cover.
Senator McClellan. I do not think it is fair to a witness, to a citi-
zen of this country, to bring them up here and cross-examine them and
when they get through, say, "The FBI has something on you that con-
demns you. It is not sworn testimony. It is convicting people by
rumor and hearsay and innuendo.
Senator Mundt. The counsel advises the Chair that it is sworn
testimony.
In spite of that, I think it should be ruled from the record until we
have had a chance in executive session to determine the testimony.
Senator Symington. I would like to ask the witness this, as long as
it has been brought up.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 461
Did you mention the name of Mrs. Markward?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, Senator.
Senator Symington. Do you know anybody named Mrs. Mark-
ward?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir : I do not.
Senator Symington. I think the record ought to show that Mrs.
Markward says that she has never seen Mrs. Annie Lee Moss at any
Communist meeting. If there is anything in the record that should
not be said, I won't say it. Otherwise, I would like to read into the
record — could I have that back ? I would like to read into the record
the memorandum. Mrs. Markward has testified that Annie Lee Moss
was registered with the Communist Party in 1943 and later her name
was shifted over to the Communist Political Association of Washing-
ton for 1944. Mrs. Markward cannot recall ever having seen Mrs.
Annie Lee Moss at any Communist Party meeting, but it is her recol-
lection that Mrs. Moss paid her dues and was a member in good
standing.
Have you ever paid any dues to anybody ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; and I have never seen a Communist card.
Senator Symington. Have you ever known anybody to the best of
your knowledge that was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir ; I have not.
Senator Symington. Has anybody ever asked you to join the Com-
munist Party ?
Mrs. Moss. No, sir.
Senator Symington. Isn't it possible that there are some other peo-
ple named Moss, just like apparently there are some other people
named Hall ? ♦
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir ; that is true.
Senator Symington. Do you know anybody else in this town named
Moss? Have you ever looked up a telephone number — are there any
Mosses in Washington besides you?
Mrs. Moss. Yes, sir. There are three Annie Lee Mosses.
Senator Jackson. Will you state that again ?
Mrs. Moss. There are three Annie Lee Mosses. And when I went to
get a real-estate license, I had an awful lot of trouble then. They
asked me if I filled out my application for correct identification, and
then from the real-estate commission they called me and asked me if
I had ever lived in New Jersey, if I had two sisters living in New
Jersey, or if I had ever lived in Maryland.
They had a record of an Annie Lee Moss.
Senator Jackson. Are the other two Annie Lee Mosses, or three, are
they white or colored ?
Mrs. Moss. I don't know. I have never seen them.
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, is there another witness, I un-
derstand, who claims that she knew Mrs. Moss? The question in
executive session will be whether or not her name should be released,
is that right?
Senator Mundt. The Chair is advised by counsel that another wit-
ness has provided sworn testimony to the effect that she knew an Annie
Lee Moss as a member of the Communist Party ; that that witness is in
contact with the FBI. I think we should take it Up in executive session
and clear it with the FBI before we call her in public.
462 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Senator Symington. Does the other witness know Mrs. Moss?
Senator Mundt. I haven't read the testimony, Senator Symington.
I have been handed the testimony right now, so I do not know. The
counsel says "Yes."
Senator McClellan. I feel this way, Mr. Chairman, that if we are
taking testimony here to condemn people under circumstances like
this, that testimony should not be revealed to the public unless we are
going to produce it publicly, so the public can weigh it as well as let us
weigh it and make comments on it.
Senator Mundt. That is right. The Chair has suggested that it not
be included as part of the record until we have a chance to determine
whether we can call a witness without disclosing an undercover agent
of the FBI, that they might not want to have disclosed at this time.
Senator McClellan. If we cannot call the witness, I do not think
we ought to refer to it in the public hearings and announce what the
witness has sworn to some place else.
Senator Symington. Mrs. Moss, I want to say something to you, and
I may be sticking my neck out and I may be wrong. But I have been
listening to you testify this afternoon, and I think you are telling the
truth.
Mrs. Moss. I certainly am.
Senator Symington. If you are not taken back into the Army (em-
ployment) , you come around and see me, and I am going to see that
you get a job.
Mrs. Moss. Thank you, sir.
Senator Mundt. Any other questions or any other statements?
You may step down.
Mr. Cohn. Is Mr. launders here ?
Mr. John Saunders?
Senator Mundt. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are
about to give this committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Saunders. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN SAUNDERS
Senator Mundt. State your name, please.
Mr. Saunders. I would like to make a request of the press, first,
please. I would like to request that the press not take any pictures or
publicity.
Senator Mundt. We will ask the photographers to discontinue pic-
tures, please.
What is your full name, please ?
Mr. Saunders. John Saunders.
Senator Mundt. What is your address?
Mr. Saunders. 70 East Seventh Street, New York City.
Senator Mundt. Where are you employed ?
Mr. Saunders. I am suspended at present.
Senator Mundt. Where were you last employed ?
Mr. Saunders. Federal Telecommunications Lab.
Senator Mundt. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party,
Mr. Saunders?
Mr. Saunders. I have.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 463
Mr. Cohn. When did you join the Communist Party?
Mr. Saunders. In late 1947.
Senator Mundt. Will you please step a little closer to the micro-
phone ?
Thank you.
Mr. Saunders. In late 1947.
Mr. Cohn. And for how long a period of time did you remain in the
Communist Party?
Mr. Saunders. Until either the middle or late 1949.
Mr. Cohn. Now, while you were a member of the Communist Party,
were you working at the Federal Telecommunications Laboratory?
Mr. Saunders. I was recruited while I was working there.
Mr. Cohn. You say while you were actually working at FTL you
were recruited in ?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Were you working on Government work at FTL?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Who recruited you into the Communist Party ?
Mr. Saunders. Harry Hyman.
Mr. Cohn. After you joined the Communist Party, did you attend
Communist meetings?
Mr. Saunders. I did, but very irregularly.
Mr. Cohn. Did you pay dues to the Communist Party ?
Mr. Saunders. I did.
Mr. Cohn. Were any other employees at the Federal Telecommu-
nications Laboratories members of this Communist cell ?
Mr. Saunders. Quite a few.
Mr. Cohn. Was Albert Shadowitz, to your knowledge, a member
of the Communist cell ?
Mr. Saunders. He was.
Mr. Cohn. Was Ruth Levine ?
Mr. Saunders. She was.
Mr. Cohn. Leo Kantrowitz ?
^Ir. Saunders. He was.
Mr. Cohn. Peter Gragis?
Mr. Saunders. He was.
Mr. Cohn. Ernest Pataki?
Mr. Saunders. He was.
Mr. Cohn. Harry Hyman ?
Mr. Saunders. He was.
Mr. Cohn. Harriman Dash ?
Mr. Saunders. He was.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know all of those persons as members of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Saunders. I did.
Mr. Cohn. While you were in the Communist Party, did you use
your own name ?
Mr. Saunders. I was told to use the name John Peters.
Mr. Cohn. You were told to use the name of John Peters?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Did that become your Communist name?
Mr. Saunders. That became my Communist name and later on we
used the initials.
40558 — 54 — pt. 10 5
464 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Senator Mundt. What year did you use the name John Peters?
Mr. Saunders. 1947 to 1948.
Mr. Cohn. You have named Ernest Pataki as a member of the
party and we have had Ernest Pataki here in public session. The
public records show that he invokes the fifth amendment as to com-
munism and espionage activity.
Did you ever attend any meetings in Pataki 's home?
Mr. Saunders. May I have the light turned off, please ?
Senator Mundt. The lights are bothering the eyes of the witness.
Please.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever attend any Communist meetings at Pataki's
home?
Mr. Saunders. I did.
Mr. Cohn. Did anyone whom you did not know ever enter one of
those Communist Party meetings ?
Mr. Saunders. At one time there was a Negro man and women that
were supposed to make some kind of a talk on Negro relations in the
union who came there, but because of discussions on union matters they
didn't get a chance to talk.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever see a girl walk into the Pataki apartment ?
Mr. Saunders. A girl?
Mr. Cohn. Yes. With reference to transferring from one cell to
another ?
Mr. Saunders. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. Will you describe that incident to us ?
Mr. Saunders. She was a tall, blond girl. I understood that she
was a dancer or actor or something, and when she came in she took
out a dollar bill and it seemed to me that the serial number of the dollar
bill was being compared on a piece of paper that Ernest Pataki had.
Mr. Cohn. And what happened after that comparison?
Mr. Saunders. She was supposed to transfer to another club, but
she had to go through this club to transfer to the other club.
Senator Mundt. While you were operating under the name of John
Peters, did you ever meet a man by the name of Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Saunders. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. Or Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Saunders. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. There was a man by the name of Peters who was
a functionary in the Communist apparatus at that time. It was a
Jay Peters. Your name was John Peters.
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Senator Mundt. You never had any connection with any of the peo-
ple in the Hiss-Chambers espionage ring at the time it was operating?
Mr. Saunders. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. Where were you living at that time, in 1947 ?
Mr. Saunders. The same address that I am at now.
Senator Mundt. New York City ?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Where were you employed then ?
Mr. Saunders. The same place, Federal Telecommunications.
Senator Mundt. Never lived in Baltimore ?
Mr. Saunders. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. Never had a job in Washington ?
Mr. Saunders. No, sir.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 465
Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson ?
Senator Jackson. What was your mission in this cell ?
Mr. Saunders. I was supposed to try to build up the union that we
were in.
Senator Jackson. Was there any discussion of espionage, sabotage,
or any attempt made to get information out of the laboratory into im-
proper hands ?
Mr. Saunders. Never to my knowledge. But I felt that something
wrong was going on, so I wanted to leave the group, and get away from
associating with those people there.
Senator Jackson. Was there any discussion at any time on the sub-
ject of espionage or sabotage or the procurement of papers and classi-
fied material for unlawful transmission to others ?
Mr. Saunders. No, sir ; not at any of the meetings that I attended,
but I felt that there were meetings called to which I was not invited.
Senator Jackson. But you were not invited ?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Senator Jackson. You do not know what went on at those meetings ?
Mr. Saunders. No, sir.
Senator Jackson. Were you dismissed from the lab ?
Mr. Saunders. I was suspended.
Senator Jackson. And what reason did they give ?
Mr. Saunders. Well, after I volunteered this information to the
FBI, and to this committee and the company, I was denied security
clearance in the labs.
Senator Jackson. What year was that?
Mr. Saunders. Before I came to testify here. About 3 weeks or a
month ago.
Senator Jackson. You have only been suspended a brief period of
time ?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Senator Jackson. Are there any other people at the lab now that
you have not named that have been affiliated with the Communist
Party?
Mr. Saunders. No, sir. I have either named them all here or to the
FBI.
Senator Jackson. And they have all been suspended ?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Senator Jackson. To your knowledge, you do not know of any es-
pionage or sabotage that has been going on or any unlawful taking
of classified material ?
Mr. Saunders. No, sir.
Senator Jackson. Did you have a feeling that there was an espi-
onage ring or something ?
Mr. Saunders. I felt there was something wrong going on there, and
I wanted to get away from that group.
Senator Jackson. Why did you leave? Why did you want to
leave ? What was the reason ?
Mr. Saunders. I didn't agree with what they used to talk about
after the union meetings there.
Senator Jackson. Did they talk about any conspiracy or anything
about overthrowing the Government, or undermining it or just what?
Mr. Saunders. There was one time that a Frank McGee came over
to give a talk on something. I don't remember just what it was, but
466 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
I felt very uncomfortable and I left during the talk. I excused my-
self and left during the talk.
Senator Jackson. You do not recall what he said?
Mr. Saunders. It was something about the form of government in
Soviet Russia, or something like that.
Senator Jackson. It was better? Well, if you were a member of
the Communist Party, you didn't think that they would say that the
Soviet Government was bad ?
Mr. Saunders. No, sir.
Senator Jackson. Did you not have an idea as a member of the
Communist Party that one of the principal aims was the furtherance
of the foreign policy of the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Saunders. When I first started attending these meetings, I
thought they were union meetings.
Senator Jackson. You thought they were union meetings?
Mr. Saunders. That is right. And then later on I found out they
were not union meetings and it is how I became aware that they were
just starting up the cell and at first they may have been union meetings.
Senator Jackson. When did you discover that you were no longer
in a union meeting but in a Communist cell meeting?
Mr. Saunders. After attending about 4 or 5 meetings there.
Senator Jackson. Did you ask any questions about the nature of
the meetings?
Mr. Saunders. Well, I felt that I was involved already and I was
looking for a way to get out, and I was afraid that they would expose
me or something, and I did not know what to do.
Senator Jackson. You did not know how to extricate yourself?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Senator Jackson. About how lo»g ago was it that you found your-
self definitely in a Communist cell meeting from time to time?
Mr. Saunders. Do you mean the last time I attended ?
Senator Jackson. No; what year was it that you discovered that
you were in a Communist cell organization rather than a union
meeting ?
Mr. Saunders. In 1948.
Senator Jackson. Then did you start paying dues?
Mr. Saunders. First they asked me — I was sitting at a desk in one
of the meetings and they said for people to turn in money and someone
said, "Who do we turn it in to," and I think it was Hyman said,
"Saunders is sitting near the desk." And they told me to take a piece
of paper and mark down the initials of the people that were turning
in the money and how much they were turning in.
Senator Jackson. You were sort of made the treasurer?
Mr. Saunders. Something like that.
Senator Jackson. Did Mr. Hyman call you from time to time?
Mr. Saunders. He did.
Senator Jackson. What did he call you about?
Mr. Saunders. Well, I was a secretary in the union for a period, so
sometimes it was on legitimate union business and other times it was
to come to a meeting or something like that.
Senator Jackson. To come to a Communist meeting or a union
meeting ?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Senator Jackson. Which was it?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 467
Mr. Saunders. Well, I went to both, Communist and union meet-
ings. It was hard for me for a period there to differentiate as to which
was which.
Senator Jackson. What was the name of this union?
Mr. Saunders. The Federation of Architects, Engineers, Chemists,
^.nd Technicians.
Senator Jackson. And that union had been affiliated with the CIO ?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Senator Jackson. And when was it kicked out?
Mr. Saunders, It later affiliated with the UOPWA, the United
Office and Professional Workers of America.
Senator Jackson. Yes ; but you were in the union at the time that
the
Mr. Saunders. Well, it was the one that affiliated with the UOPWA
and it was kicked out of the CIO.
Senator Jackson. Then it went into UOPWA or whatever vou call
it?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Senator Jackson. And it is still a part of that organization ?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Senator Jackson. Which is not affiliated with any of the major
unions in this country ?
Mr. Saunders. I don't know what happened to that union now. It
is not the plant union any more.
Senator Mundt. Were you a Communist at the time you went to
work in this laboratory ?
Mr. Saunders. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. You joined after you had been there?
Mr. Saunders. After I had been there about 2 years.
Senator Mundt. What kind of security screening did they give you
before you got your position?
Mr. Saunders. Well, I joined there in 1945.
Senator Mundt. That was right before the present company was
engaged in sensitive work % At that time it was not ; was it ? Is that
right?
Mr. Saunders. It wasn't until about 2 years ago that I went
through rather rigorous screening there, fingerprints, photos, and
signature and stuff like that.
Senator Mundt. At that time, were you still Communist ?
Mr. Saunders. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. You had left the party then ?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Senator Mundt. You say in answer to a question by Senator Jack-
son that all of the people whose names you have identified as mem-
bers of this Communist cell have now been suspended; is that right?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Senator Mundt. How many would that total be?
Mr. Saunders. I can't remember them, but the committee has the
list somewhere.
Senator Mundt. Would that be the list of names that he asked you
to identify a few minutes ago ?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Maybe 10 or 12 names. I am not exact, but 8 or
10 or 12?
468 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan, any questions?
Senator McClellan. No questions.
Senator Mundt. Senator Symington ?
Senator Symington. No questions.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Saunders, what sort of things would you dis-
cuss at these cell meetings that you attended while at the FTL?
Mr. Saunders. How to build up the union, get more people+into the
union, get more people activated into the union and also at times
how to get people that were not in the group to make motions and
suggest things to be done.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you discuss the Communist Party at all at these
cell meetings?
Mr. Saunders. Not at all of them, but at a lot of them, at the end
we would discuss articles in the Daily Worker, different pamphlets
that came out periodically.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you discuss national affairs and international
affairs ?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And would you discuss the relationship between the
United States and Russia, for instance ?
Mr. Saunders. Well, I don't remember too much of that, because
I did not care for that type of discussion, and after the union matters
were discussed, I would excuse myself and leave the meeting. So
they suggested to me to go to the Jefferson School or subscribe to
the Daily Worker and learn more about it. But I wanted to get out
from under it, not to learn more.
Mr. Kennedy. What sort of things did they discuss that you didn't
enjoy?
Mr. Saunders. After the union the discussions they used to have
after the union.
Mr. Kennedy. What sort of discussions went on?
Mr. Saunders. About Soviet Russia, and different things that went
on there, that a union had no business discussing.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, that was part of the Communist Party, then,
was it not ? That was the cell meeting, was it not?
Mr. Saunders. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And you did not take part in those discussions?
Mr. Saunders. They wanted me to, but I would always try to
excuse myself and leave early.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you the only one that left the meeting ?
Mr. Saunders. No. Ruth Levine used to leave early also.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you discuss your position? Was it discussed
at the cell meetings what your position would be in case war came
between Russia and the United States?
Mr. Saunders. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That wasn't discussed ?
Mr. Saunders. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the reason that you left? What did you
find distasteful?
Mr. Saunders. What was that?
Mr. Kennedy. What did you find distasteful at these meetings that
went on ?
Mr. Saunders. I found everything distasteful about it.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 469
Mr. Kennedy. Give us an example.
Mr. Saunders. I just did not feel comfortable with the people in
the group there.
Mr. Kennedy. Were these other people having discussions about
Soviet Russia and the United States ?
Mr. Saunders. That is right. They seemed to know what they were
talking about, and I didn't know what it was all about, and they
wanted me to go to the Jefferson School, which I didn't want to do, and
they told me to try to educate myself along those lines.
May I have that light turned off, please?
Mr. Kennedy. What did you understand it meant when you were a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Saunders. I didn't know what it meant, but I knew that I
wanted to get out.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, why — perhaps I did not hear. Why did you
get in in the first place ?
Mr. Saunders. I was sort of pulled in the back door. I thought I
was going to union meetings, and then I found out that they weren't
union meetings and I didn't know how to get out.
Mr. Kennedy. You couldn't just resign or anything like that?
Mr. Saunders. I didn't know. I didn't know what to do.
Mr. Kennedy. When they gave you this fictitious name, Mr. Saun-
ders, did you raise some question about that ?
Mr. Saunders. I may have in my mind, but I don't remember raising
anything verbally.
Mr. Kennedy. I just have a difficult time just understanding quite
what your position was in the Communist cell. I did not know, you
know, what sort — what work you did for the Communist Party.
Mr. Saunders. The union that was in the labs at that time was
dominated by this group. And there was a checkoff system on dues
there. Harry Hyman, the president of the union, used to tell us how
he could get people fired, get them upgraded, and stuff like that, so
I did not want to make myself at odds with the union.
Senator Symington. May I interrupt just a minute, Mr. Chair-
man?
I understand that there may be additional evidence with respect to
Mrs. Moss. I proceed on the theory in this country that anybody is
innocent unless they are proven guilty. If there is any additional
evidence with respect to Mrs. Moss, I would ask the chairman and the
counsel that that information be given to the committee at the earliest
opportunity.
Mr. Cohn. That will be done, Senator. We will do everything we
can.
Senator Mundt. We will have an executive session and go over the
sworn testimony and then determine what the attitude of the FBI
is about releasing it.
You may continue with your statement.
Senator Symington. May 1 add to that, Mr. Chairman, that I think
is very important and I would like to join my senior colleague, Sena-
tor McClellan, in that it is very important to me that the evidence
either be presented along with any implications of additional evidence.
Senator Jackson. Mr. Chairman, may I just say that I concur in
what has been said here. I think we understand that it is most impor-
tant that when one, as the case of Mrs. Moss, has been accused of being
470 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
a Communist Party member publicly, I believe, and I am sure the
entire committee must agree, that all of the accusers who are named
publicly should be called to appear, and if possible in her presence,
and to have a substantiation of the statements that are made in the
hearing as occurred here today.
I do not think we ought to allow any inferences to go into the rec-
ord. We ought to have the whole story, what is known about her. I
am sure that all of us could be in agreement on that position.
Senator Mundt. There isn't any question about it. The whole com-
mittee is unanimous about that. We have just one simple question
to decide. The evidence referred to by the counsel and which the
chairman has asked to be stricken from the record, was sworn testi-
mony by a person — I do not know whether it is a man or a woman —
who is presently cooperating with the FBI. The question we confront
is whether we want to ask that witness to appear in public hearing
before such time as the FBI feels it is in the interest of national se-
curity to have it happen. That is the only question we are confronted
with.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, here is my position : You can
strike it from this printed record, but you cannot strike these state-
ments made by counsel here as to evidence that we are having and
withholding. You cannot strike that from the press nor from the
public mind once it is planted there. That is the evil of it. People
that are accused have a right to be confronted. This woman has been
accused and has lost her job. She may be a Communist. If she is, I
want to expose her and I don't want her to work for the Government.
Senator Symington. I most certainly do, too.
Senator McClellan. The position I have is that we have had one
undercover agent of the FBI testify here about a name. That lady
could not identify Mrs. Moss as being the party about whom she had
testified. She could not identify her personally. Then to make the
statement that we have other witnesses who will swear and substanti-
ate that she is a Communist without producing it after the woman
has testified and after she has lost her job, is not fair to any American
citizen.
We need to improve our procedure.
Senator Mundt. I agree with that. The press that is covering these
hearings will point out the facts that the statement made by the coun-
sel is not being made a part of the record, is not being accepted by the
committee as evidence, and until and unless the charges are made in
public by the witness, they will not be considered as part of the evi-
dence concerning the Moss case.
Senator McClellan. Not part of the record and not part of the
evidence, but they are part of the news of the day. They go in the
press throughout the land.
Senator Mundt. I would trust that the news of the day would also
point out that it was not accepted by the committee as evidence.
Senator McClellan. I hope they will do that.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Saunders, you were in the middle of a state-
ment. Does anybody have any further questions ?
Mr. Cohn. I haven't any.
Senator Mundt. The committee will then stand in recess until the
call of the Chair. You are excused.
(Whereupon, at 3 : 45 p. m., the committee was recessed subject to
call.)
APPENDIX
EXHIBITS
No. 20 (a)
Office Memorandum
To : Mr. W. F. Boyd March 14, 1950.
From : Arnold M. Levine
Subject: Jury Duty
Attached is a notice received by Mr. L. Kantrowitz, R-6, to report for jury
duty.
Will you please take the necessary action to have this postponed. Mr. Kantro-
witz is engaged in work on a confidential Navy Contract which is being readied
for delivery.
[Notation :]
Why critical — Final phases of work ; contract completion in June.
What contract — Number 42296.
How long to be postponed — July
What delay will absence involve? — Delay equivalent to duration of trial in
preparation of the final design of components.
No. 20 (b)
March 16, 1950.
Kings County Court,
Central Court Building, Brooklyn, N. Y.
Gentlemen : Your cooperation is requested in deferring our employee, Mr.
Leo Kantrowitz, from jury duty at this time.
Mr. Kantrowitz is employed at this Laboratory as a layout draftsman and ia
presently engaged in the final phases of work on a confidential Navy contract,
which is being readied for delivery at the end of June. The loss of Mr. Kan-
trowitz's services at this time would materially delay the delivery of this equip-
ment to the Navy ; therefore, we would appreciate his deferment until July.
Any assistance you may give us in this matter will be greatly appreciated.
Very truly yours,
Wm. F. Boyd, Personnel Manager.
No. 20 (c)
Inter-Office Memorandum
July 31, 1950.
To : Mr. W. F. Boyd
From : Arnold M. Levine
Subject : Jury Duty
Attached is a notice received by Mr. L. Kantrowitz, R-6, to report for jury
duty. Will you please take the necessary action to obtain an indefinite post-
ponement.
Mr. Kantrowitz is engaged in design and drafting work on several high-
priority projects for the various branches of the armed services ; and in view
of the present national emergency, his full-time services are most urgently
required.
PdeF : ec
cc: Messrs. D. D. Grieg
C. W. Davis
471
472 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
No. 20 (d)
August 1, 1950.
County Court of the County of Kings,
Central Courts Building,
Brooklyn, N. Y.
Gentlemen : Your cooperation is again requested in deferring our employee,
Mr. Leo Kantrowitz, from jury duty at this time.
Mr. Kantrowitz is employed by this laboratory as a layout draftsman and is
presently engaged in design and drafting work on several high-priority projects
for the various branches of the armed services. In view of the present national
emergency, his full-time services are most urgently required ; therefore, it is
respectively requested that an indefinite postponement with regard to a call for
jury duty be granted Mr. Kantrowitz.
Any assistance you may give us in this matter will be greatly appreciated.
Very truly yours,
Wm. F. Boyd, Personnel Manager.
No. 22
March 16, 1953
Dear Mr. Johnson : I hereby submit my resignation to take effect at once.
I am obliged to take this course of action at present upon my doctor's advice,
inasmuch as this matter has already seriously affected my health.
Sincerely,
(Signed) Leo Kantrowitz.
No. 24
{Excerpt from : Union Calendar No. 660, House of Representatives, Rept. No. 2233, 79th
Cong., 2d sess., Investigation of Un-American Activities and Propaganda]
June 7, 1946. — Committed to the Committee of the Whole House on the State
of the Union and ordered to be printed
Page 27 :
"Directly related, organizationally or historically, with the Joint Anti-Fascist
Refugee Committee, are the following Communist-front organizations : American
Committee To Save Refugees, Exiled Writers Committee of the League of
American Writers, American Committee for Spanish Freedom, American Rescue
Ship Mission, Coordinating Committee To Lift the Embargo, Medical Bureau To
Aid Spanish Democracy, Medical Bureau and North American Committee To Aid
Spanish Democracy, and Spanish Refugee Appeal, this latter being an activity
of the committee in which we are chiefly interested at the moment."
Page 37 :
"It has been necessary to go into the background of the American Committee
for Spanish Freedom, its officers and sponsors due to the fact that the sponsors
of the Spanish Refugee Appeal of the JAFRC, are to a large degree sponsors
and officers of the American Committee for Spanish Freedom. Both, according
to ads in the Daily Worker, and other official Communist organs, as well as
the spoken word of the sponsors and officers, have the same Communist objec-
tive and that is to bring about a break in diplomatic relations between the
United States and Spain and establish in that country another Soviet puppet
state. We must also assume that they adhere to all other Communist Party
objectives."
COMMUNIST PARTY
NOMINATING PETITION FOR COUNCILMAN
Borough of Brooklyn
City of New York
State of New York
To the Board of Elections in the City of New York:
a duly qualified elector of the Borough of Brooklyn, City and State of New Yo
my place of residence is truly stated opposite my signature hereto, that I have
Borough ,of Brooklyn, Gty of New York, within eighteen months previous to the rime this petition is filed, that I intend to sup
— ned person as a candidate for nomination for the public office of Councilman from the Bor
ion to rough on the 2nd day of November, 1943, and I select the name C
iking the nomination, subject to certification by the authorized officers of such independent body, ii
of Section 1005 of the New York City Charter.
k, the politic
registered a:
>rt at the ens
tit for which
oter of such
election, and
, New York
e following persons, all of whom are voters within the political unit of the Borough of Brook
VINCENT J: CASTIGLIONEi residing at 8640 Bay Parkway, Brooklyn, N. Y.
LILLIAN SCHWARTZ, residing at 3734 Maple Avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y.
SARAH RUDERMAN, residing at 2081 Dean Street, Brooklyn, N. Y.
ANTHONY MORTON, residing at 932 St. Marks Avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y.
HELEN FICHTENBAUM, residing at 235 Sta'gg Walk, Brooklyn, N. Y.
ARM AND MAZZARINO, residing at 1744 - 79th Street, Brooklyn, N. Y.
ance with the provision of the election law.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand the day and year placed opposite my signature.
FULL NAME OF SIGNER
4ftu^Y^IV»> 3 £>to 'Gl/^fcvourvV
Cmr of New York,
County or Kings. .
/CL.xZ
ate of New York and i
..Brooklyn, N. Y, th<
(nil Is Number)
for the general election in the year 19^2. from ...
wity of New York in the County of Kings, in sue
County of Kings. I know each of ih
of them subscribed the same in my pn
SwdVn to before me this
(Signature of OBW*r>
— tlection District of the / <■> . Assemb
iy District, County of Kings. I was last registered
?<<o
District of the .. J £ Assembly District, •
petition con'aMii,, 1 "'""^" '
^^MT^t^^
,ft"^»n ■ c */^ i **~f Qdl
■ pt. 10 Face p. 472 No.
No. 21 (d )
NOMINATING PETITION FOR COUNCILMAN
Boraigh of Brooklyn
City of New York &,* c f New York
To the Board of Election* in the Gty of New York:
I. the under.ip.ed, do hereby state that I am a duly qualified electa, of the Borough of Brooklyn, City and State of New York, the political unit for which
. nointaa tion to pubhc office » hereby aJyte my place of residenceis truly stated opposite my signature heretoi that I : In registered as a voter of such
: a candidate for m
City, to be voted for at the general election to be held -in said Borough e
to appear after the name of the candidate on the ballot in accordance w.th tie
of Brooklyn, New York
COMMUNIST PARTY
New Y .
fstStss
PETER V. CACCHIONE
*ers within the political unit of the Borough of Brooklyn:
MARY WILSON, residing at 230 Flatbush Avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y.
AUGUSTA STRAUSS, rendirn ; at 1548 - 51st Street, Brooklyn, N. Y.
ARMANDO MAZZARINO, rciding at 1744 - 79th Street, Brooklyn, N. Y.
ANTHONY MORTON, residing at 932 St Marks Avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y.
GEORGE SCHWARTZ, residing at 3734 Maple Avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y.
in accordance with the provisions of the election law.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand the day and year placed opposite my signature.
FULL NAME OF SIGNER
PRESENT RESIDENCE
St. AlojttV*
3? n
'T*l m'-** 'F* ?'■"*• ' n
►Uwiywi ff . ' H
, being duly sw
__Brooklyn, N. Y., therein.
„_.bly District, County of Kings. I was last registered
„ l9jffi?ro m AfJ f /^Uy ^^ *^a^k_ ; Brooklyn, N. Y., b the Borough of Brooklyn.
• lT11l,*i<~t at turn— Vmtitr mat Fort OnV.1 3 3 . Wl_ TV "_.
Qty of New York in the County of Kings, in such state. The said residence is in the •T'T E lection District of the— ^ -—Assembly District,
' . ^ (WVl la Hooter) 0710 si "■"•J*'
County of Kings. I know each of the voters whose names are subscribed to the above sheet of the foregoing petition caiUining___J^_-jignatures and each
of them subscribed the same in my presence and upon so subscribing declared to me that the foregoing statement, made and subscribed by him or her, was true.
HBRrrfwi
, 1945.
VoOcUl THta *
^SLV Ml AOAM* »JT. , ■noeftLYtl. K. v.' M ~ «
J^C-^J^^
40558 O - 54 - pt. 10 Face p.-
INDEX
Page
American Committee To Save Refugees 472
American Committee for Spanish Freedom 435, 436, 438, 472
American Rescue Ship Mission 472
Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee 472
Arma Corp 427
Army (United States) 417, 444, 457-459, 462
Attorney General 435, 438
Bacilli, Mr 414
Baltimore, Md 464
Bell Telephone Laboratories 416, 419
Boyd, W. F 471, 472
Brooklyn, N. Y 417, 422, 471, 472
Cafeteria Union (Washington, D. C.) 450-452
California Committee 439
Central Court Building (Brooklyn, N. Y) 471, 472
Charter (New York City) 417
Chasen, Robert 444
CIO. (See Congress of Industrial Relations.)
City of New York 413, 415, 417, 420, 422, 426, 427, 462, 464, 471
City of New York (charter) 417
City of New York Police Department 426
Clark, Attorney General 435, 438
Clark, Tom 435, 438
Clifton, N. J 413
Communist card 461
Communist conspiracy 412, 413, 418, 423, 440
Communist Daily Workers 449
Communist Party 412, 414, 415, 417-420, 422, 423, 425-437,
439, 441, 446, 447, 450, 451, 454, 458-463, 465, 466, 468-470, 472
Communist Party (Communist Political Association) 461
Communist Party (Northeast Club 446,460
Communist Party (Washington, D. C.) 446
Communist Political Association (Washington, D. C.) 461
Congress of Industrial Relations (CIO) 467
Congress of the United States 418, 441, 458
Coordinating Committee to Lift the Embargo 472
County of Kings (New York) 471,472
Daily Worker (publication) 441,446-450,452-455,468,472
Dash, Harriman 426, 435, 463
Testimony of 427-434
Davis, C. W 471
Defense Department 414, 419
Department of the Army 417,444,457-459,462
Department of Defense 414,419
Department of Justice 423
District of Columbia 443, 446, 447, 453, 45S, 461, 464
Eastern District High School (Brooklyn, N. Y.) 422
Einstein, Dr. Albert 435-438
Espionage agent 422
Espionage ring 412
Exiled Writers Committee (League of American Writers) 472
FECT, Local 231 411
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 428-430,
436, 437, 444, 446, 460-462, 465, 469, 470
If INDEX
Page
Federal Government 414, 419, 421, 423, 425, 426, 441, 444, 455-457, 463, 465, 470
Federal Telecommunications Laboratory 411,
412, 414, 415, 422, 424, 426-428, 431, 432, 434, 444, 462-464, 468
Federation of Architects, Engineers, Chemists, and Technicians 431,467
FTL (Federal Telecommunications Laboratory) 411,
412, 414, 415, 422, 424, 426-428, 431, 432, 434, 444, 462-464, 468
Fuchs, Klaus 424
General Accounting Office 444,456,457
Government of the United States 414,
419, 421, 423, 425, 426, 441, 444, 455-457, 463, 465, 470
Gragis, Peter A 414,463
Testimony of 411-413, 426-427,434-441
Greenglass, David 424
Grieg, D. D 471
Griffin, Hattie 459
Hall, Robert 447-450, 452-455
Harris, Mr 451
Hayes, George F. C 443,444
Herndon, Angelo 437
Hiss, Alger 464
House Committee on Un-American Activities 435, 438, 449, 450, 472
Hyman, Harry 411, 412, 422-424, 426, 434, 463, 466, 469
JAFRC 472
Jefferson School 468, 469
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee 472
Justice Department 423
Kane, Ed 444
Kantrowitz, Leo 412, 434, 440, 463, 471, 472
Testimony of 413-426
Kastle, Mr 414
Kings County Court (New York) 471, 472
Korea -._ 437
League of American Writers (Exiled Writers Committee) 472
Levine, Arnold M 471
Levine, Ruth 412, 426, 434, 463, 468
Lloyd Rogers Co 416
Local 231, FAECT 411
Loyalty Review Board 438
Man of the Week (television program) 421
Markward, Mrs. Mary 459^61
Marx, Karl 458
McGee, Frank 412, 426, 434, 465
Medical Bureau To Aid Spanish Democracy 472
Medical Bureau and North American Committee To Aid Spanish De-
mocracy 472
Moss, Mrs. Annie Lee, testimony of 443^62
Nassau Collegiate Center (Long Island) 437
Nassau County, Long Island 437
Navy contract 471
Negro relations 464
New York City 413, 415, 417, 420, 422, 426, 427, 462, 464, 471
New York City charter 417
New York City Police Department 426
New York Daily Worker (publication) 441,446-450,452-455,468,472
New York Herald Tribune 440
News Day 440
Northeast Club (Washington, D. C.) 446,460
Paragon Design Co 415,416
Pataki, Ernest 411, 412, 426, 463, 464
Pataki apartment 464
Pentagon 444. 445
Peters, John 463, 464
Police Department (New York City) 426
Rabinowitz. Victor 413, 418
Radar 412, 415
Radar Laboratory 415
INDEX III
Page
Rogers, Lloyd 416
Rosenberg, Ethel 437
Rosenberg, Julius 424, 4:57
Salisbury, N. C 450
San Francisco Conference (United Nations) 437
Saunders, John 412, 426, 434
Testimony of 462-472
Scottsboro boys 437
Secret radar work 412
Shadowitz, Albert 434, 435, 463
Soviet Russia 431, 437, 466, 468, 469
Spain 436, 438
Spanish-aid organizations 439
Spanish Civil War 437
Spanish Refugee Appeal 472
Spanish Revolution (1936) 436, 438
Surrey Dress Shop 416
Telecommunications Laboratory (Federal) 411,
412, 414, 415, 422, 424, 426-428, 432, 434, 443, 444, 462-464, 468
Un-American Activities Committee (House) 435, 438, 449, 450, 472
Union Calendar No. 660 (House of Representtives, 79th Cong. 2d sess.) 472
United Nations (San Rrancisco Conference) 437
United Office and Professional Workers of America (UOPWA) 467
United States Army 417, 444, 457-459, 462
United States Attorney General 435, 438
United States Congress 441, 458
United States Department of Defense 414, 419
United States Department of Justice 423
United States Government 414,
419, 421, 423, 425, 426, 441, 444, 455-457, 463, 465, 470
United States Navy 471
United States War Department 416
UOPWA. (See United Office and Professional Workers of America.)
War Department 416
Washington, D. C 443, 446, 447, 453, 458, 461, 464
Washington Post 440
.Zenith Engineering Co 413-415, 419, 420
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