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ARMY SIGNAL CORPS—SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
HEARING
BEFORE THE
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
' sli
FIRST SESSION ' IJ
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PART 11
NOVEMBER 4, 1953
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
40558 WASHINGTON : 1955
Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents
MAY 2 -1955
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLBLLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER. Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
Francis D. Flanagan, Chief Counsel
Waltbe L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk
Pebmanent Subcommittee on Investigations
JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota
EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSEN, Illinois
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan
Roz M. COHN, Chief Counsel
Francis P. Carr, Ewecutive Director
CONTENTS
Testimony of Wendell H. Furry 473
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AEMY SIGNAL COKPS-SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
(On November 4, 1953, Wendell H. Furry testified in executive
session during hearings held by the Senate Permanent Subcom-
mittee on Investigations on Army Signal Corps, Subversion and
Espionage. This testimony was made public on March 31, 1955,
by members of the subcommittee and follows below:)
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 1953
United States Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
or THE Committee on Government Operations,
Ne%D York City, N. Y.
The subcommittee met (pursuant to Senate Resolution 40, agreed to
January 30, 1953) at 11 a. m., room 36, Federal Building, New York
City, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, presiding.
Present : Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin.
Present also: Francis P. Carr, executive director, Roy M. Cohn,
chief counsel; G. David Schine, chief consultant; George Anastos,
assistant counsel ; Daniel G. Buckley, assistant counsel ; James Juliana,
investigator.
TESTIMONY OF WENDELL EUERY
The Chairman. Mr. Furry, will you raise your right hand and be
sworn %
In this matter now in hearing, do you solemnly swear that the testi-
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Furry. I do.
Mr. CoHN. "VVlio is your counsel ?
Mr. Furry. My counsel is Osmond Frankel.
Mr. CoHN. Now, counsel for the Harvard Corp. has requested that
he be allowed to sit in. The chairman granted him that permission.
He now says that he won't.
Could we get your name ?
Mr. Furry. Wendell Hinkle Furry.
Mr. CoHN. Your last name is spelled F-u-r-r-y ?
Mr. Furry. Right. My middle name is spelled H-i-n-k-1-e.
Mr. CoHN. "Wliere are you employed ?
Mr. Furry. Harvard University.
Mr. CoHN. Wliat do you do ?
Mr. Furry. Teach.
Mr. CoHN. A\^iat do you teach?
Mr. Furry. Physics.
Mr. CoHN. Professor of physics ?
Mr. Furry. Associate professor.
473
474 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. CoHN. For how long a period of time have you taught at Har-
vard?
Mr. Furry. I began 19 years ago. I have had leave of absence for
two and a half years during that time.
Mr. CoHN. When was that ?
Mr. Furry. I had half a year's leave in 1950, sabbatical, and 2 years
leave of absence from 1943 to 1945 when I was employed at the radia-
tion laboratory, MIT.
Mr. CoHN. Did that laboratory deal with radar ?
Mr. Furry. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. Did you do any work for the United States Govern-
ment?
Mr. Furry. Yes.
Mr. CoHN. Directly or indirectly ?
Mr. Furry. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. Any for the Signal Corps ?
Mr. Furry. I am not aware what the connections were.
The Chairman. Was it classified material?
Mr. Furry. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you have access to classified material ?
Mr. Furry. Yes.
The Chairman. Were you then a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Furry. On the grounds that this is irrelevant to the purpose of
this committee to investigate my associations and beliefs and my rights
under the first amendment and my privileges under the fifth amend-
ment, I refuse to answer that question.
The Chairman. Do you feel that answer might tend to incriminate
you?
Mr. Furry. I stand on the ground. I refuse to answer.
The Chairman. Is it on the grounds that your answer might tend
to incriminate you ?
Mr. Furry. On the fifth amendment, sir.
The Chairman. Is it on the grounds that your answer might tend
to incriminate you? That is the ground on which you can refuse to
answer. I am going to order you to answer that question.
I think you should understand the Chair's position. You see, you
can invoke the fifth amendment if you feel your answer might tend to
incriminate you. It is up to the Chair in each instance to determine
whether or not you are properly invoking the fifth amendment before
a committee. I cannot tell whether you are properly invoking the
fifth amendment unless you tell me whether you feel your answer might
tend to incriminate you.
I asked you if you feel that your answer to the question of whether
or not you were a Communist while handling classified material for
the United States Government would tend to incriminate you.
Mr. Frankel. I'd like to suggest that the word "would" was inad-
vertent.
The Chairman. Might. Thank you.
Mr. Furry. With the amendment to the question as provided by
Mr, Frankel and accepted by you, the answer is "Yes."
The Chairman. Then you are entitled to the privilege.
When you were on 6 months leave in 1950, what did you do during
that time ?
AKMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 475
Mr. Furry. I traveled to Denmark and worked at the Institute of
Theoretical Physics in Copenhagen.
The Chairman. Now, in your work at Harvard do you handle any
classified Government material ?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. When was the last time you handled classified ma-
terial ?
Mr. Furry. Just before I left the radiation laboratory.
The Chairman. That was in 1945 ?
Mr. Furry. 1945.
The Chairman. Did you know any Communists who were working
at the laboratory at that time and handling classified material ?
Mr. Furry. On the same grounds that I have mentioned before, I
refuse to answer that question.
The Chairman. Did you know of anyone who was removing classi-
fied material from the laboratory and giving that material either to
espionage agents or any other personnel who were not authorized to
receive it?
Mr. Furry. I did not, sir, and I would like to add a factual statement
to that. That I have never had any connection with espionage or
plans for espionage myself and I have never known of any other per-
son having any connection with such things.
The Chairman. Did you ever engage in any illegal activities of
any kind in violation of any law, to your knowledge, in connection
with Communists or the Communist Party ?
Mr. Furry. I decline to answer that on the same constitutional
grounds, except as I stated in the last answer.
The Chairman. Except you say — you refuse to say whether you
were engaged in any illegal activities with the exception of engaging
in or knowing that espionage
Mr. Furry. Or having any knowledge of any plans on the part of
other persons.
The Chairman. Did you ever remove any classified material from
the laboratories at Fort Monmouth or the Signal Corps Laboratory ?
Mr.CoHN. He said MIT.
The Chairman. I beg j^our pardon.
Mr. Furry. I am perfectly willing to testify that I have never
been at the Laboratories at Fort Monmouth.
The Chairman. Did you ever remove classified material from the
MIT laboratories ?
Mr. Furry. I can remember only one instance, sir. The instance
in question was when I left the employ of the laboratory in August
1945. There was a document classified restricted, which as you know
is the lowest brand of classification, and I would, of course, be entitled
to remove that at any time for my own study. I think the material,
this document, was of general scientific interest and copies of it have
been made available to lots of people since. I took a copy of it home.
I was told the next day by my group leader that had been improper ;
that I should wait until the time it was made available as it was later.
The Chairman. With the exception of this one document marked
restricted, did you ever take home any document marked confidential
or secret ?
Mr. Furry. Certainly not to my memory.
476 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
- The Chairman. And to your knowledge you never had any con-
fidential or secret material in your home ? Is that correct ?
Mr. Furry. No, sir, not in my home, only in my office.
The Chairman. Your office is right within the MIT buildings ?
Mr. Furry. Yes.
The Chairman. All of the radar material was in the office in the
MIT buildings?
Mr. Furry. There were 1 or 2 classified documents sent to me on
other bases while at Harvard that remained in Harvard.
The Chairman. Did you ever discuss radar or your work with
anyone known to you to be a Communist ?
(The witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Furry. I decline the privilege in refusing to answer that ques-
tion but I will add that I never discussed the work outside the labora-
tory.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer the question.
For the benefit of counsel, I will tell you why I order the w^itness
to answer that question. As counsel knows, the privilege under the
fifth amendment can be waived. When it is waived, you waive it as
to an area, not as to a specific question.
You said you never engaged in espionage of any kind and dis-
cussing secret material with a Communist would come under that
field, within that area of investigation. Therefore, j^ou are ordered
to answer the question for the reason that you have waived your
privileo;e under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Furry. The answer I already gave to that question covers every-
thing which I am not entitled to the privilege on and I still stand on
the privilege.
The Chairman. Just to let you know the possibility of the claim
and so you can't say you misunderstood the question at some future
legal proceeding, I will ask the question again.
Wliile you were working on classified material for the Government,
did you discuss that material with anyone known to you to be a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Furry. My answer as given previously was that I did not dis-
cuss it with anybody outside the laboratories. At least that is my im-
pression that was the answer given. Beyond that, I refuse to answer.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer whether you discussed
it with people known to you to be Communists either in or out of the
laboratory ?
Mr. Furry. My statement to that is that I discussed it only in the
laboratory, which means I only discussed it with authorized person-
nel and beyond that answer
Mr. CoHN. Did you discuss it with any persons in the laboratory
known to you to be members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Furry. On that question I claim the privilege.
Tlie Chairman. You are ordered to answer the question.
Mr. Furry. I stand on the privilege.
The Chairman. I do that as a courtesy to you. You are informed
that you will be cited for contempt. If you want to cover up for Com-
munists, you may do that. If you want to cover up espionage agents
getting information, you may do that. You have to take the con-
sequences. We intend to see that any witness who does anything to
destroy this Nation will take the consequences.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 477
Did you ever discuss classified work with anyone whom you had
any reason to believe might be an espionage agent ?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you feel that a Communist, a member of the
Communist Party, is under such discipline and loyalty to the Commu-
nist Party, if the Communists want classified information he is bound
as a Communist to give them that information ?
Mr. Furry. I know essentially nothing of the nature of membership
in the Communist Party at the present time or what it might imply.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist Party today ?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were you a member last year ?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. AYere you the year before that ?
Mr. Furry. I will testify that I have not been a member of the
Communist Party since March 1, 1951.
The Chairman. March 1, 1951 ? Is that correct '?
Mr. Furry. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Were you a member in February 1951 ?
Mr. Furry. I claim the ])rivilege on that question.
The Chairman. You understand if you were not a member of the
Communist Party you can merely say '"No" and it would in no way
incriminate you ?
Mr. Furry. I stand on the privilege on the question, sir.
Tlie Chairman. Did you ever give the FBI any information as to
your fellow members of the Conmiunist Party ?
Mr. Furry. That question has obvious implications and I will refuse
to answer it on the basis of the privilege.
The Chairman. Under the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Furry. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you ever voluntarily give the FBI any in-
formation ?
Mr. Furry. The word "voluntarily." I have never given it except
when asked.
The Chairman. Did you ever give the FBI information about the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Furry. I refuse to answer that, sir, on the basis of the privilege.
The Chairman. Fifth amendment?
Mr. Furry. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer that. You cannot in-
criminate youi-self by giving the FBI information. You are ordered
to answer the question.
(Off-record discussion.)
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, if you want my personal opinion, I
don't think he waives any right by answering that question. I am not
in a position to suggest to him what rights he does or does not waive.
I have said that I was going to have him cited for contempt. This
will be submitted to the Attorney General for indictment before a
gi-and jury. I think it would be highly im]:)roper for me to advise
him ahead of time as to what rights he can waive. I merely take the
position that the question of whether or not he gave any information
to the FBI, the answer to that question could in no way incriminate
him, and, therefore, he is not entitled to the fifth amendment. For
that reason, I ordered him to answer.
40558 — 55— pt. 11 2
478 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. Frankel. I understand the Chairman's position. I don't know
whether the Chairman would like my reaction to his comment.
The Chairman. It would be a little unconventional.
Mr. Frankel. I don't mind being unconventional at times.
It seems if a person is asked whether he has given information about
the Communist Party, it puts him in the position of knowing some-
thing about the Communist Party.
The Chairman. Not necessarily. I have given the FBI unlimited
information about the Communist Party. One way we have of deter-
mining whether a Communist has broken with the party completely
is whether they gave the proper law enforcement agencies any in-
formation he may have.
Mr. Frankel. May I suggest that is outside of the function of this
particular committee.
The Chairman. Keep in mind that while we are primarily inves-
tigating espionage in the Signal Corps and in otlier Government
installations, the committee would have the jurisdiction to call this
man as an employee of an instituiton that is partially supported by
the Government and inquire as to whether or not he is an espionage
agent of a foreign power, a Communist agent, so that we would have
the complete authority to call him entirely separate and apart from
his radar work and Communist activities.
(Off-record discussion.)
Mr. Frankel. I think the witness can answer this particular ques-
tion.
Mr. Furry. The answer is, "No, sir."
The Chairman. Did you ever attend Communist meetings with
your students ?
Mr. Furry. I refuse to answer that, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever try to indoctrinate your students in
the Communist philosophy ?
Mr. Furry. I refuse to answer that, sir, on the same grounds.
The Chairman. Did you ever solicit any of your students to join
the Communist Party ?
Mr, Furry. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.
The Chairman. Did you ever hold Communist meetings in your
home?
Mr. Furry. I refuse to answer that and as in the previous questions
and this, I would like to claim that it is beyond the scope of the com-
mittee and irrelevant to this investigation.
The Chairman. And you are also invoking the fifth amendment
privilege ?
Mr, Furry, Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know any professors teaching at Harvard
who are members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Furry. As of the present, I will answer that I do not.
The Chairman. After it became laiown around Harvard that you
would be called before this committee, did the president of the univer-
sity discuss the matter with you ?
Mr. Furry. That is entirely outside the scope of this committee.
Mr. Cohn. Does Harvard obtain any grant in any way from tlie
Federal Government?
Mr. Furry. I am completely unacquainted with such.
Mr. Cohn. They definitely do.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 479
The Chairman. Let's not argue. You will be ordered to answer the
question.
Mr. Fttrry. I have not, sir. I have forgotten how it was worded.
The Chairman. Did the president call you in and ask you whether
or not you were a Communist?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. As far as you know, he has expressed no interest
in whether or not you were a member of the Communist Party ? As
far as you know?
Mr. Furry. As far as I know?
The Chairman. He didn't discuss your appearance here today,
didn't discuss any of the testimony you would give?
Mr. Furry. I believe this is completely irrelevant to the purpose of
the committee. The answer is "No."
The Chairman. He didn't discuss your appearance before other
committees investigating communism.
Mr. Furry. You mean the president of the university ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. Who is the president ?
Mr, Furry. Mr. Pusey.
Mr. CoHN. Professor, following any appearance you made before
the House Un-American Activities Committee, were you suspended
from your post at Harvard University?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
Mr. CoHN. No action has ever been taken against you?
Mr. Furry. Yes. Certainly action has been taken against me.
Mr. CoHN. Up at Harvard?
Mr. Furry. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoHN. Trace that very briefly.
Mr. Furry. Well, I was, so to speak, placed on trial. My case was
considered.
Mr. CoHN. By whom?
Mr. Furry. By the Harvard Corp. for a number of weeks. At the
end of that time I was rather severely censured and placed on proba-
tion.
Mr. CoHN. You were censured?
Mr. Furry. And placed on probation. Again I will say these things
seem to have nothing to do
Mr. CoHN. When was it you were placed on probation ?
Mr. Furry. Last May.
Mr. CoHN. For how long a period of time ?
Mr. Furry. Three years.
Mr. CoHN. You still go on teaching your classes ?
Mr, Furry. Yes.
Mr. CoHN. Do you do any work for the Government, directly or in-
directly ?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
Mr. CoHN. No research work?
jVIr. Furry. I do research work for the university, the sort of prob-
lems chosen by me.
Mr. CoHN. None of it reaches the Government directly or indirectly ?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
480 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
Mr. CoHN. Do you know anybody on the faculty at Harvard who
ever was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr, FuRKT. I will claim the privilege in answer to that.
Mr. CoHN. The same question, MIT ?
Mr. Furry. Claim the privilege,
Mr, CoHN. Anybody who worked on radar at the laboratory at MIT
and is now working for the United States Government, who you then
knew to be a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Furry. I have already claimed the fifth amendment.
Mr. CoHN. You don't think that is information you can give us. Is
that right.
Mr. Furry, Right,
Mr. CoHN. Were you a member of the party in November 1947 ?
Mr. Furry. I will claim the privilege of refusing to answer that, sir.
Mr, CoHK, At any time during 11)47 were you a member of the
party?
Mr, Furry. I will claim the privilege on that.
Mr. CoHN, Do you know a man by the name of Hyman Yamins ?
Mr, Furry, I believe I must have known him when we were students
at Harvard, To the best of my knowledge, I haven't seen him since.
Mr. CoHN. Was he a member of the Communist Party?
Mr, Furry, I will claim the privilege on that, sir.
The Chairiman. You said you were not a Communist since March 1,
1951. Have you ever attended any Communist Party meetings since
that time ?
Mr. Firry. No, sir.
The Chairman, Did you since that time ever attempt to indoctrinate
your students with the Communist philosophy ?
Mr, Furry. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do j^ou believe in the Communist system ?
Mr. Furry. No, sir.
The CHAiRjvrAN. Did you in February of 1951 believe in it?
(No answer.)
The Chairman. What is your answer to that question ?
Mr. Furry. I will claim the privilege on that, sir.
The Chairman, Would you care to tell us at what period of time
you no longer believed in the Communist system ?
Mr. Furry. I will claim the privilege and not answer that, sir.
The Chairman, Did you drop out of the Communist Party, drop
your formal membership for the sole reason that you felt that to keep
your job you could no longer formally associate with the Communist
Party ? Is that correct ?
Mr. Furry, That question contains an implication and I would
claim the privilege on that under the fifth amendment. It does con-
tain the implication that I was an active Communist.
The Chairman. If that is not a correct implication you can answer
the question. If it is incorrect you can answer.
Mr. Furry, There is no question about that.
The Chairman. Have your beliefs in regard to communism changed
over the past 4 years, let's sa}?^ ?
Mr. Furry. My beliefs on many subjects, including this, have gone
through changes.
The Chairman. In other words, jour beliefs on communism had
changed in the last few years ?
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE 481
Mr. Furry. On that and other subjects.
The Chairman. Do you have a lower opinion of communism than
you hacl 4 years ao:o.
Mr. Furry. I think that is probably true, sir. I have a lower opin-
ion than I had 4 years ago.
Mr. CoHN. Professor, one thing here troubles me very much. You
luidoubtedly know the committee is investigating subversion and es-
pionage in the radar field. You are an expert in that field undoubted-
ly and know what tlie transmission of various secrets to anj'one seek-
ing to destroy the United States might mean to the American people.
In view of that, I wonder if you don't feel you could tell us the
Communist Party members who were working on radar secrets with
;70uatMIT.
Mr. Furry. I would like to make a comment on that, if I may ; that
js that a shelf of something like 20 volumes has been published which
contains all of the work that I have heard of being done at MIT, so
far as I know
Mr. CoHN. When was that published ? ,'
Mr. Furry. As rapidly as possible after the fall of 1945.
Mr. CoHN. How about prior ? Was there anything secret that you
were working on prior to that publication after 1945 ?
Was there anything you were working on that was marked secret at
that time? Don't you think it would be of value to know who was
giving out things when they were secret and see where they are today
and what they are doing today? You are blocking us in that, Pro-
fessor.
Mr. Furry. I would like to say that to the best of my knowledge
and memory I liave never known, other than the case of Mr. Yamins —
anyone who had employment with the Signal Corps or Fort Mon-
mouth.
Mr. CoHN. You don't know that. You don't know where everyone
is who Avas working with you. You don't want to undertake to rep-
resent the exact whereabouts, occupations, directly and indirectly, the
activities of peo]^le who worked with you at MIT laboratory, do you ?
Mr. Furry. There may be some of them about whom I don't know.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this. Professor. Let's take a hypo-
thetical case of John Jones who knew of someone working in our secret
laboratories on secret work. If John Jones knew Communists who
were there working in this secret work and would not give that infor-
mation to a Government committee, which is investigating espionage,
would you consider John Jones a traitor ?
Mr. Furry. I am a little bit lost in this hypothetical question.
The Chairman. Let me give you a real question. If Professor
Furry was a member of the Communist Party in 1945 and under Com-
munist Party disci])line; if Professor Furry was working on secret
material having to do with the defense of this Nation ; and if Professor
Furry now knows that Communists were getting that information,
made it available to them ; if Professor Furry now knows of the Rosen-
bergs' case, for example, knows this information was passed on to Com-
munist Russia, and an espionage ring attempted to get them that
information ; if Furry is called before a committee and asked to give
us the names of Communists with whom he himself discussed this
secret information and he refused to give us the names of those Com-
482 ARMY SIGNAL CORPS — SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
munists or any otliers known to him who worked in the laboratory at
that time, would you say Furry is a traitor to the United States or not ?
Mr. Furry. Well, this question claims to be hypothetical question
but it uses the name which sounds a little like mine, although it wasn't
exactly like mine. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of self-
incrimination.
(Off -record discussion.)
The Chairman. You will consider yourself under subpena. We
will want you in public session.
May I ask, Mr. Furry, we have the committee rule that the commit-
t/.e does not give the names of any witnesses to the public.
The witness himself can give his name if he wants to. You can
discuss with anyone what went on in this room as it affects you. I
may say in your case someone gave the press in Boston, either you
or your lawyer — we don't care. We didn't give the press anything.
Someone told the press you were going to be here. I assume they know
you are here. I wasn't criticizing you for doing it. I merely wanted
to state we did not.
Thank you very much.
BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY
3 9999 05445 3061
