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University  of  California  •  Berkeley 


Regional  Oral  History  Office  University  of  California 

The  Bancroft  Library  Berkeley,  California 


The  University  of  California 
Source  of  Community  Leaders  Oral  History  Series 


Harold  Kay,  M.D. 

A  BERKELEY  BOY'S  SERVICE  TO  THE 
MEDICAL  COMMUNITY  OF  ALAMEDA  COUNTY,  1935-1994 


With  an  Introduction  by 
Frances  Simon  Kay 


Interviews  Conducted  by 

Germaine  LaBerge 

1994 


Copyright  •  1994  by  The  Regents  of  the  University  of  California 


Since  1954  the  Regional  Oral  History  Office  has  been  interviewing  leading 
participants  in  or  well-placed  witnesses  to  major  events  in  the  development  of 
Northern  California,  the  West,  and  the  Nation.  Oral  history  is  a  modern  research 
technique  involving  an  interviewee  and  an  informed  interviewer  in  spontaneous 
conversation.  The  taped  record  is  transcribed,  lightly  edited  for  continuity  and 
clarity,  and  reviewed  by  the  interviewee.  The  resulting  manuscript  is  typed  in 
final  form,  indexed,  bound  with  photographs  and  illustrative  materials,  and 
placed  in  The  Bancroft  Library  at  the  University  of  California,  Berkeley,  and 
other  research  collections  for  scholarly  use.  Because  it  is  primary  material, 
oral  history  is  not  intended  to  present  the  final,  verified,  or  complete 
narrative  of  events.  It  is  a  spoken  account,  offered  by  the  interviewee  in 
response  to  questioning,  and  as  such  it  is  reflective,  partisan,  deeply  involved, 
and  irreplaceable. 


************************************ 


All  uses  of  this  manuscript  are  covered  by  a  legal  agreement 
between  The  Regents  of  the  University  of  California  and  Harold  Kay 
dated  January  20,  1994.  The  manuscript  is  thereby  made  available 
for  research  purposes.  All  literary  rights  in  the  manuscript, 
including  the  right  to  publish,  are  reserved  to  The  Bancroft  Library 
of  the  University  of  California,  Berkeley.  No  part  of  the 
manuscript  may  be  quoted  for  publication  without  the  written 
permission  of  the  Director  of  The  Bancroft  Library  of  the  University 
of  California,  Berkeley. 

Requests  for  permission  to  quote  for  publication  should  be 
addressed  to  the  Regional  Oral  History  Office,  486  Library, 
University  of  California,  Berkeley  94720,  and  should  include 
identification  of  the  specific  passages  to  be  quoted,  anticipated 
use  of  the  passages,  and  identification  of  the  user.  The  legal 
agreement  with  Harold  Kay  requires  that  he  be  notified  of  the 
request  and  allowed  thirty  days  in  which  to  respond. 

It  is  recommended  that  this  oral  history  be  cited  as  follows: 


Harold  Kay,  M.D.,  "A  Berkeley  Boy's 
Service  to  the  Medical  Community  of 
Alameda  County,  1935-1994,"  an  oral 
history  conducted  in  1994  by  Germaine 
LaBerge,  Regional  Oral  History  Office,  The 
Bancroft  Library,  University  of 
California,  Berkeley,  1994. 


Copy  no. 


Dr.    Harold  Kay,    1976. 


Cataloging  information 

KAY,  Harold.  M.D.   (b.  1909)  Physician 

A  Berkeley  Boy's  Service  to  the  Medical  Community  of  Alameda  County.  1935- 
1994.   1994,  xiii,  104  pp. 

Childhood  in  Berkeley,  CA  and  Berkeley  fire,  1923;  B.A.  in  international 
relations,  UC  Berkeley,  1931;  medical  studies:  Creighton  University,  1931- 
1933,  UCSF,  1933-1935,  University  of  Edinburgh,  1938-1939;  reflections  on 
Judaism  and  Yehudi  Menuhin;  navy  doctor  and  quarantine  officer,  American 
Samoa,  1941-1944;  urology  practice  in  East  Bay  hospitals;  local,  state  and 
national  medical  association  leadership  roles;  work  with  Alameda  County 
Blood  Bank,  Blue  Cross  of  California,  Alameda  County  Mental  Health 
Commission,  emergency  medical  services  for  Alameda  and  Contra  Costa 
counties;  testifying  before  congressional  committee,  1974,  on  health 
insurance . 

Introduction  by  Francis  Simon  Kay. 

Interviewed  1994  by  Germaine  LaBerge  for  University  of  California  Source  of 
Community  Leaders  Oral  History  Series.   The  Regional  Oral  History  Office, 
The  Bancroft  Library,  University  of  California,  Berkeley. 


TABLE  OF  CONTENTS --Harold  Kay 

PREFACE  i 

INTRODUCTION- -by  Frances  Simon  Kay  Ix 

INTERVIEW  HISTORY- -by  Germaine  LaBerge  x 

BIOGRAPHICAL  INFORMATION  xiii 


I    FAMILY  BACKGROUND,  CHILDHOOD,  AND  EDUCATION 
Parents  Come  to  Berkeley 

Recollections  of  World  War  I  3 

The  City  of  Berkeley  5 
City  Schools  and  Boy  Scouts 

Deciding  to  Go  to  Cal  9 

Naval  ROTC  in  College  and  The  Panama  Canal  11 
Meeting  Frances  Simon 

Trip  through  the  Panama  Canal,  1929  14 
Berkeley  Campus  and  the  First  Time  Stanford  Stole  the  Axe,  1930  17 
Two  Medical  Schools'  Philosophies:  Creighton  University 

and  UCSF  20 

Majoring  in  International  Relations  21 

The  Class  of  '31  Committee  23 

Influences  of  Mother  and  Religion  25 

Yehudi  Menuhin  26 

Deciding  on  Urology  28 

University  of  Edinburgh,  1938-1939  28 

The  Berkeley  Fire,  1923  31 

II   WORLD  WAR  II  35 

Mare  Island  and  San  Francisco  Naval  Duty,  1941-1942  35 

Health  Officer  in  Pago  Pago,  American  Samoa,  1942-1944  37 

General  Practice  37 

Tropical  Diseases  and  American  Diseases  38 

Quarantine  Officer  39 

Samoan  Economy  40 

Living  Quarters  and  Climate  41 

Tarawa  43 

Back  to  Mare  Island,  1944  44 

Trip  Home  by  Air  45 

Building  Hospital  on  Samoa  and  Sailing  46 

Naval  Reserves  for  Twenty-eight  Years  48 

Oak  Knoll  Naval  Hospital,  1960  50 

III    POSTWAR  PRACTICE  IN  UROLOGY  52 

Finding  Housing  and  Opening  Practice  52 

Postwar  Reception  from  the  Hospitals  53 

Alta  Bates  Hospital  History  55 


Teaching  Medicine  57 

Establishing  Residency  Program  in  Urology  at  Highland 

Hospital  57 

Providence  Hospital  Nurses  and  UCSF  58 

IV   ACTIVITIES  IN  VARIOUS  MEDICAL  ASSOCIATIONS  59 

Alameda  County  Medical  Association  and  Kaiser  Doctors  59 

California  Medical  Association  60 

American  Medical  Association  62 

American  Board  of  Urology  63 

American  and  International  College  of  Surgeons  64 
Urological  Associations:  Northern  California,  Western 

Section,  American  64 

Testifying  Before  the  Congressional  Committee,  1974               68 

Thoughts  on  Health  Insurance  70 

V    SIDELIGHTS  TO  MEDICAL  PRACTICE  AND  COMMUNITY  SERVICE  74 

Blue  Cross  Board  74 

Alameda  County  Institutions  Commission  76 

Alameda  County  Mental  Health  Commission  78 
Emergency  Medical  Services  for  Alameda  and  Contra  Costa 

Counties  78 

Retirement  Decision  81 

Alameda  County  Blood  Bank  and  Related  Issues  81 

Sugar  Cubes  for  Polio  Prevention  87 

California  Academy  of  Medicine  88 

A  Thank  You  from  Kaiser  Doctors  90 

The  100  Club  90 

Piedmont  Boy  Scout  Council  91 
Piedmont  Emergency  Preparedness  Committee,  Planning  Commission, 

and  Schools  92 

Vacations,  Rotary,  Masonic  Lodge,  Temple  Sinai  95 

Motivation  for  Community  Work  96 

Berkeley  Foundation  Award  and  Cal  Connections  97 

Changes  in  Medicine  and  Urology  98 

Life's  Lessons  101 

TAPE  GUIDE  103 

INDEX  104 


PREFACE 


On  the  occasion  of  the  50th  anniversary  of  our  graduation  from  the 
University  of  California  at  Berkeley,  the  Class  of  1931  made  the  decision 
to  present  its  alma  mater  with  an  endowment  for  an  oral  history  series  to 
be  titled  "The  University  of  California,  Source  of  Community  Leaders." 
The  Class  of  1931  Oral  History  Endowment  provides  a  permanent  source  of 
funding  for  an  ongoing  series  of  interviews  by  the  Regional  Oral  History 
Office  of  The  Bancroft  Library. 

The  commitment  of  the  endowment  is  to  carry  out  interviews  with 
persons  related  to  the  University  who  have  made  outstanding  contributions 
to  the  community,  by  which  is  meant  the  state  or  the  nation,  or  to  a 
particular  field  of  endeavor.   The  memoirists,  selected  by  a  committee 
set  up  by  the  class,  are  to  come  from  Cal  alumni,  faculty,  and 
administrators.   The  men  and  women  chosen  will  comprise  an  historic  honor 
list  in  the  rolls  of  the  University. 

To  have  the  ability  to  make  a  major  educational  endowment  is  a 
privilege  enjoyed  by  only  a  few  individuals.   Where  a  group  joins 
together  in  a  spirit  of  gratitude  and  admiration  for  their  alma  mater, 
dedicating  their  gift  to  one  cause,  they  can  affect  the  history  of  that 
institution  greatly. 

The  oral  histories  illustrate  the  strength  and  skills  the  University 
of  California  has  given  to  its  sons  and  daughters,  and  the  diversity  of 
ways  that  they  have  passed  those  gifts  on  to  the  wider  community.   We 
envision  a  lengthening  list  of  University- inspired  community  leaders 
whose  accounts,  preserved  in  this  University  of  California,  Source  of 
Community  Leaders  Series,  will  serve  to  guide  students  and  scholars  in 
the  decades  to  come. 

Lois  L.  Swabel 
President,  Class  of  1931 

William  H.  Holabird 

President,  retired,  Class  of  1931 

Harold  Kay,  M.D. , 

Chairman,  Class  of  1931  Gift  Committee 


September  1993 

Walnut  Creek,  California 


ii 


DONORS  TO  THE  CLASS  OF  1931  ANNIVERSARY  FUND 


Jane  Bolton  Adams 

Robert  E.  Agnew 

Harry  Albert 

Margaret  F.  Allen 

Dr.  Wallace  E.  Allen 

Zal  Alter 

L.  Stern  Altshuler 

Margaret  B.  Ancker 

Janet  Mills  Anderson 

Dr.  Miles  H.  Anderson 

Marie  F.  Anderson 

Harry  C.  Andrews 

Anonymous 

Beatrice  Armstrong 

Jean  Cope  Armstrong 

Florence  Hahn  Ashley 

Hope  G.  Athearn 

Tadini  Bacigalupi,  Jr. 

Charles  L.  Badley 

Mary  H.  Baker 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  Robert  E.  Baker 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  Howard  F.  Ballinger 

Ralph  C.  Bangsberg 

Pina  J .  Barbieri 

Ellen  Silver  Barnett 

Harold  E.  Barhart 

Thomas  F.  Barrett 

Beryl  Evelyn  Flick  Bates 

John  D.  Bauer 

Grace  Wallace  Beckett 

Charles  F.  Bedford 

George  R.  Bell 

Barbara  Dunton  Benedict 

Hertha  P.  Bengston 

Mary  Woods  Bennett 

Virginia  Smith  Bennett 

Anna  0.  Bentzen 

Betty  Bergemann 

Lester  J .  Berry 

Brigadier  General  Paul  Berrigan 

Jerome  W.  Bettman,  M.D. 

Lucille  K.  Bewley 

Raymond  Biagi 

Wendell  Birdwell 


Vivian  Y.  Blevins 

A.  Harry  Bliss 

Irene  Fisk  Blowers 

Max  Bogner 

George  D.  Bogert 

Katherine  Smith  Bolt 

Helen  H.  Bondshu 

Aileen  E.  Boogaert 

Helen  R.  Bottimore 

Dr.  and  Mrs.  James  J.  Brady 

Clark  L.  Bradley 

F.  Glenn  Bramble 

Yaye  Togasaki  Breitenbach 

A.  R.  Brooding 

Dorothy  W.  Brown 

Alan  K.  Browne 

J.  F.  Brust 

Ada  Buckingham 

Philip  Buckingham 

Jean  C.  Burtchaell 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  William  T.  Butner 

California  Alumni  Club  of  Rossmoor 

in  memory  of  Alan  K.  Browne 

Fred  A.  Camp 

Mary  E.  Campioni 

Judge  Walter  Carpeneti 

Walter  W.  Carter 

Adeline  Cassettari 

Elena  Bianchini  Catelli 

Gladys  N.  Ceccotti 

Daisy  Wong  Chinn 

Francis  Lai  Chinn 

Katherine  I.  Clark 

E.  F.  Chase 

Julia  A.  Cline 

Betsy  Kinkel  Clopton 

lone  Cockrell 

Joel  Coffield 

Waldo  E.  Cohn 

Hilma  Colton 

Marie  F.  Colwell 

James  F.  Conley 

Maylou  B.  Conroy 

Robert  E.  Cooper,  Jr. 


iii 


Margaret  Coope 

Dr.  James  Hallam  Cope 

Raymond  Cope 

George  L.  Cory 

Lemuel  C.  Cragholm 

Harlene  Eachus  Cripe 

Arthur  P.  Crist,  Jr. 

Cecil  Cross 

Ralph  Cross 

Sam  Cross 

Wilhelmina  Gumming 

Professor  Charles  C.  Gushing 

Charlotte  Cerf  Gushing 

Theodore  D.  Dabagh 

Dorothy  E.  Dady 

George  H.  Danis 

John  0.  Davis,  Jr. 

Vernon  DeMars 

Sidney  V.  Dennison 

Marie  Fitzgerald  Devin 

Marion  Devlin 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  Leland  Dibble 

Frances  C.  Dieterich 

Elizabeth  Dittman 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  Fred  A.  Divita 

Alice  K.  Dolan 

Ted  A.  Dungan 

Cordell  Durrell 

Mildred  Squier  Earl 

Charles  K.  Ebert 

Helen  G.  Ebert 

Mildred  Long  Ehrhardt 

Adele  C.  Eisman 

Dr.  Maurice  Eliaser,  Jr. 

C.  A.  Emery 

Eleanor  Engstrand 

J.  Gordon  Epperson,  M.D. 

Dr.  Ervin  Epstein 

Helen  E.  Estep 

B.  D.  Evers 

Doris  F.  Falk 

J.  Clarence  Felcino 

Dr.  John  M.  Fernald 

Mildred  Field 

Clair  N.  Fishell 

Margaret  O'Brien  Fisher 

Dr.  Howard  B.  Flanders 

Katherine  A.  Fleager 

Julia  A.  Foote 

Dr.  John  Douglas  Forbes 


Elvin  L.  Fowler 

Robert  H.  Frank 

Julius  H.  Freitag 

Mary  C.  Freitas 

Arthur  Frick 

Edward  Frick 

Evelyn  L.  Friedenthal 

Gail  Merwin  Fritz 

Arthur  A.  Frost 

Elizabeth  L.  Fuller  (Gladys  Lund) 

Y.  Fred  Fujikawa 

Mary  Gamburg 

Adelia  S.  Garard 

Dr.  and  Mrs.  Levon  K.  Garron 

Edwin  C.  Garwood 

William  S.  Gavin 

Charlotte  Ham  Gerdes 

Helen  C.  Gibson 

Winifred  S.  Gibson 

Ivy  Winn  Gill 

Virginia  Gilloon 

Steven  M.  Goldblatt 

Grace  Goodfriend 

Ruth  H.  Goodrich 

Marion  Gorrill 

Virginia  W.  Grace 

Evelyn  Graham 

Harvey  T.  Granger 

Florence  Gray 

Sterling  Steffen  Green 

Edward  Gustafson 

Mary  Catherine  Gustavson 

K.  Verner  Haapala 

Robert  S.  Hager 

Elizabeth  G.  Hahn 

Theodore  E.  Haig 

Marlin  W.  Haley 

Wilbur  H.  Halsey 

Carl  W.  Handy 

Mary  Beth  Hansen 

Maurice  A.  Harband 

Maurine  S .  Hardin 

Harrison  Harkins 

William  L.  Harr 

Katharin  F.  Harrell 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  Robert  Harris 

Vivian  C.  Harrison 

Robert  M.  Hartwell 

Edith  C.  Hassan 

Howard  Hassard 


iv 


Lois  H.  Hastie 

Helena  A.  Quail  Hawkins 

Hazel  J.  Hawkinson 

Margaret  I.  Hayden 

Juan  C.  Hayes 

Marjory  Hayes 

Edna  Heatherly 

Glan  T.  Heisch 

J .  Henry  Heide 

John  J .  Helm 

Annie  Henry 

Emily  C.  Herndon 

Edith  Meyer  Herreshoff 

Stephen  G.  Herrick 

Nathan  R.  Hertzberg 

Walter  S.  Hertzmann 

Max  L.  Herzog 

Dr.  Allen  T.  Himnan 

Mabel  Hirschman 

Elsie  D.  Hoeck 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  William  H.  Holabird 

Vera  Holleuffer 

Robert  W.  Hollis 

Wilfred  Elliott  Horn 

Marjorie  A.  Howard 

W.  George  L.  Hughes 

Donald  E.  Hunter 

Jean  Hurlbert 

Dorothy  Hynding 

Ward  D.  Ingrim 

Erma  M.  Jacobsen 

Leonore  A.  Jacques 

Raymond  W.  Jewell 

A.  H.  Johnson 

Mrs .  Donald  Johnson 

J.  W.  Johnson 

George  H.  Johnston 

Ilene  F.  Joyce 

Lillian  M.  Kavanagh 

Dr.  and  Mrs.  Harold  Kay 

Irma  Meyers  Kennedy 

Mary  M.  Kennedy 

Evelyn  Kerkof 

Albert  H.  Kessler 

Dorothy  M.  Kesseli 

Kenneth  A.  Keyes 

Frank  M.  King 

Katherine  E.  King 

John  Knight 

Margaret  Farley  Koehler 


Howard  A.  Koster 

Etta  Jean  Kotcher 

Adrian  A.  Kragen 

Arleen  A.  Krentz 

Charlotte  Kruger 

Fred  N.  Kruse 

Ruth  Ann  Lage 

Anne  Gibson  Lanpher 

Scott  H.  Lathrop 

Lowell  A.  Ledgett 

Dr.  Sanford  E.  Leeds 

Jack  R.  Lehmkuhl 

Edwin  T.  Lindley,  Jr. 

Mary  Ann  Linsdale 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  Edwin  Lisherness 

Flora  Mattoon  Locke 

Dorothy  Ford  LoForte 

Wilmer  Grace  Logan 

Atha  Darby  Loggins 

Fred  W.  Lorenz 

Katherine  S.  Lorenzen 

Marguerite  A.  Lorton 

Dorothy  R.  Lowe 

Bernice  E.  Lowenstein 

Juliet  Lowenthal 

Morris  Lowenthal 

Victor  F.  Ludewig 

George  J .  Lyons 

Mildred  Wall  MacLean 

Kathryn  Prost  MacLeod 

Baxter  C.  Madden,  Jr. 

Elizabeth  F.  Mahon 

Genevieve  T.  Malstrom 

Plato  Malozemoff 

Edward  V.  Martin 

George  W.  Martin 

H.  E.  Ma this 

Benjamin  S.  Matsuda 

C.  Geneva  McCann 

Harold  McCann 

Sue  McCarthy 

Tom  McCarthy 

Horace  R.  McCombie 

Thomas  B.  McCord 

Blanche  E.  McCormick 

George  H.  McElroy 

Sister  Mary  A.  McFeeley 

Helene  Bing  McGalliard 

Imogene  W.  Mclndoe 

Jewel  Smith  McKenna 


Ruth  E.  McNulty 

Frank  W.  McQuiston,  Jr. 

Clifford  L.  Merkel 

Arthur  H.  Middleton 

Roger  F.  Miller 

Hazel  Emery  Mills 

Florence  Mintz 

Henry  G.  Mishkin 

Tulie  Toru  Miura 

Jane  Moore  Mock 

Margaret  G.  Molarsky 

Alice  Mollison 

John  F.  Molony 

Betty  W.  Moore 

Alice  K.  Montin 

Edwin  Morby 

Iwao  M.  Moriyama 

Kenneth  L.  Morris 

Anna  C.  Morrison 

Jean  Mosheim 

Rush  S.  Mossman 

Ruth  S .  Mossman 

Robert  S.  Mott 

R.  P.  Murphy 

Margaret  D.  Myers 

Hudson  F.  Nagle 

Genshiro  Nakamura 

Natalie  Neher 

Alma  Goyun  Neubarth 

Clem  J .  Nevitt 

Scott  and  Ruth  Waldo  Newhall 

Arthur  W.  Newman 

Ferril  R.  Nickle 

Meredith  H.  Nicoles 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  Richard  H.  Nida 

Neal  J .  Nomura 

Florence  M.  Odemar 

Edith  C.  Oldendorf 

Nichi  Oka  Onuma 

Esther  Carlson  Osnas 

Charles  P.  Paccagnella 

Marion  D.  Pack 

C.  J.  Paderewski 

Edwin  W.  Palmrose 

Mabel  E.  Parker 

Catherine  Chapin  Parsons 

Elsie  Jeanette  Plath 

Jeryme  C.  Potter 

Harold  Trent  Power 

Milton  H.  Price 


Margaret  Sellers  Priest 

Bea  Edwards  Pruiett 

Randall  Ramey 

Charles  Randolph 

Claire  Hagerty  Ranken 

Walter  H.  Redit 

William  D.  Reidt 

Marie  C.  Reinhart 

Frederick  W.  Reyland,  Jr. 

Embree  E.  Reynolds 

Larry  Rhine 

Nancy  Surr  Richardson 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  John  D.  Riner 

John  Rinne 

James  H.  Ripley 

Mary  E.  Ritchie 

Agnes  R.  Robb 

Lawrence  M.  Roberts 

Elsie  Merrill  Robinson 

Elsie  B.  Roemer 

Edgar  0.  Rogers 

Elizabeth  D.  Rollins 

Matilde  Ronne 

Alice  Frances  Rooney 

Barbara  D.  Ross 

Elaine  Routbort 

W.  Byron  Rumford,  Sr. 

Elizabeth  Y.  Rusk 

Margaret  Scherer  Sabine 

William  L.  Sanoorn 

Kermit  Sather 

Marietta  Schlaman 

Walter  C.  Schmidt 

Victor  Schoch 

Dorothy  Sciutto 

Griffith  W.  Sherrill 

Helen  C.  Shirley 

Ross  T.  Shoaf 

Lois  M.  Shupe 

Edna  Stanbridge  Sibole 

Anne  Meux  Siegfried 

Johanna  Sigelkoff 

Dr.  A.  E.  Simmons 

Helen  C.  Skidmore 

Mansuetta  Slater 

Dr.  C.  C.  Smith 

Valerie  W.  Smith 

John  C.  Snidecor 

J.  Robert  Snyder 

Frank  Solinsky  III 


vi 


Halcyon  B.  Spencer 

Evelyn  Spiegelman 

Harry  C.  Stanley 

Lois  I.  Startt 

Marie  Stayton 

Alta  V.  Steengrafe 

Charles  Stefanetti 

H.  G.  Stevens 

Elizabeth  M.  Stevick 

Lucien  B.  St.  John 

Fred  Stripp 

J .  Ralph  Stone 

Leonora  Hohl  Strohmaier 

G.  Douglas  Sturges 

Robert  Sutro 

Lois  L.  Swabel 

George  E.  Sweeney 

Irene  Tamony 

Anna  Rose  Taylor 

Kathleen  Lapham  Taylor 

Elise  Heyman  Terrill 

Dr.  Mary  F.  Thelen 

Bernhard  Tieslau 

Eleanor  Todd 

Sanford  M.  Treguboff 

Charlotte  Treutlein 

Helen  Kathryn  Trevey 

Inna  B.  Uren 

Arthur  W.  Van  de  Mark 

Elvin  Van  Ness 

Robert  N.  Varney 

Lawrence  0.  Vireno 

Ruth  R.  von  Uhlit 

Clifford  Wayne  Vredenburgh 

Rather ine  A.  Walsh 

Margaret  A.  Ward 

Mae  Heisler  Watkins 

Margaret  H.  Watzek 

Priscilla  S.  Wegars 

Ralph  W.  Weilerstein 

Robert  A.  Weimer 

Dorothy  Weis 

Kenneth  and  Elsie  Wells 

Margaret  C.  Weymouth 

Phyllis  B.  White 

W.  A.  Wilkinson 

Ralph  E.  Williams 

Jean  Williamson 

Garff  B.  Wilson 

Honora  K.  Wilson 


Paul  S .  Windrem 

Helen  J.  Winkenhofer 

Elmer  C.  Winkler 

Frederick  De  Boom  Witzel 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  Leonard  R.  Wohletz 

Russell  Wolfe 

Marion  G.  Wolford 

Harold  A.  Wood 

Jane  A.  Woods 

James  S.  Wyatt,  Jr. 

Mrs.  Robert  W.  Yates 

Verna  F.  Zander 

Margaret  Zealear 

Edward  M.  Zeller 

Claude  E.  Zobell 


Donors  1986  to  1991 

Valentin  0.  Arellano 

Jean  C.  Armstrong 

Mary  C.  Baker 

BankAmerica  Foundation  (matching) 

Mary  Woods  Bennett 

Alan  K.  Browne 

Raymond  W.  Cope 

Fitzgerald  Abbott  &  Beardsley 

Elinor  B.  Freitag  in  memory  of 

Professor  Julius  H.  Freitag 
Mrs.  Levon  K.  Garron 
Charlotte  H.  Gerdes 
Marlin  W.  Haley 
Robert  M.  Hartwell 
Juan  C.  Hayes 
Edna  Heatherly 
J.  Henry  Heide 
William  H.  Holabird 
William  H.  Holabird  in  memory  of 

John  J .  Helm 
Aubrey  H.  Johnson 
Adrian  A.  Kragen  in  memory  of 

Alan  K.  Browne 
Flora  M.  Locke 
Mrs.  Wilmer  G.  Logan 
Victor  F.  Ludewig 
Kathryn  Post  MacLeod  in  memory  of 

Alan  K.  Browne 
Plato  Malozemoff 
Margaret  G.  Molarsky 


vii 
Donors  1986  to  1991 

Anna  C.  Morrison 

Mabel  E.  Parker 

Jason  Flowe 

Jeryme  C.  Potter 

Helen  Redfield 

Mrs.  R.  Q.  Roemer 

Edgar  0.  Rogers 

Elaine  L.  Routbort 

UCB  Alumni  Club  of  Rossmoor  in 

memory  of  Alan  K.  Browne 
Arthur  W.  van  de  Mark 
Katharine  A.  Walsh 


Donors  1991  to  1992 

Mrs.  Levon  K.  Garron 

Marlin  W.  Haley 

J.  Henry  Heide 

Mr.  and  Mrs.  William  H.  Holabird 

W.  George  L.  Hughes 

Anna  C.  Morrison 

Mrs.  Jeryme  Potter 


Donors  1992  to  1993 

Frances  W.  Garron 
J.  Henry  Heide 
William  H.  Holabird 
Adrian  A.  Kragen 

Donors  1993  to  1994 

Wallace  E.  Allen 

Charlotte  C.  Gushing 

Sidney  V.  Dennison 

William  R.  Eastman,  Jr. 

Frances  W.  Garron 

Charlotte  H.  Gerdes 

Edna  Heatherly 

J.  Henry  Heide 

William  H.  Holabird 

John  Howard  Henry 

Adrian  A.  Kragen,  in  memory  of 

William  Holabird 
Esther  M.  Osnas 


viii 


UNIVERSITY  OF  CALIFORNIA 
SOURCE  OF  COMMUNITY  LEADERS  SERIES 


Robert  Gordon  Sproul  Oral  History  Project.   Two  volumes,  1986. 

Includes  interviews  with  thirty- four  persons  who  knew  him  well. 

Bennett,  Mary  Woods,  A  Career  in  Higher  Education:   Mills  College 
1935-1974.  1987. 

Browne,  Alan  K. ,  "Mr.  Municipal  Bond":   Bond  Investment  Management.  Bank 
of  America.  1929-1971.  1990. 

Devlin,  Marion,  Women's  News  Editor:  Vallelo  Times-Herald.  1931-1978. 
1991. 

Hassard,  H.  Howard,  The  California  Medical  Association.  Medical 
Insurance,  and  the  Law.  1935-1992.  1993. 

Kay,  Harold,  M.D. ,  A  Berkeley  Boy's  Service  to  the  Medical  Community  of 
Alameda  County.  1935-1994.  1994. 

Kragen,  Adrian  A.,  A  Law  Professor's  Career:  Teaching.  Private  Practice, 
and  Legislative  Representative.  1934  to  1989.  1991. 

Stripp,  Fred  S.,  Jr.,  University  Debate  Coach.  Berkeley  Civic  Leader,  and 
;tor.  1990. 

Hedgpeth,  Joel,  Marine  biologist,  in  process. 

Heilbron,  Louis,  Attorney,  in  process. 

Peterson,  Rudolph,  Bank  of  America  administrator,  in  process. 

Trefethen,  Eugene,  Kaiser  Industries  administrator,  in  process. 


ix 


INTRODUCTION- -by  Frances  Simon  Kay 

It  is  an  honor  and  a  privilege  for  me  to  write  a  few  words  by  way  of 
introducing  my  husband  for  56  years,  Harold  Kay. 

I  first  met  him  in  Omaha,  Nebraska  in  1929.   He  was  from  Berkeley 
and  visiting  relatives  who  were  friends  of  my  family.   For  the  short  time 
we  were  together,  he  told  me  of  the  great  University  he  attended  and  how 
much  he  loved  being  a  student  there.   That  love  has  never  waned,  and  his 
interest,  although  not  active  now,  has  always  been  one  of  devotion, 
loyalty  and  gratitude  for  his  education,  training,  basic  values,  and  the 
meaning  of  relationships. 

His  many  accomplishments,  his  desire  to  do  as  much  as  he  could  to 
help  others,  his  active  involvement  in  so  many  organizations  in  his 
profession,  community,  religion  all  attest  to  his  great  love  of  people. 

We  are  very  much  a  California  family.   I  later  moved  to  California 
and  was  a  graduate  of  UCLA.   Our  two  sons  are  graduates- -one  of 
California  in  Los  Angeles,  and  one  of  Berkeley. 

Along  with  his  many  activities  and  his  medical  practice,  he  still 
had  the  time  to  be  a  devoted  husband  and  wonderful  father  and  we  are  all 
so  very  proud  that  the  University  has  seen  fit  to  honor  him  in  this  way. 


Frances  S.  Kay 


April  11,  1994 
Piedmont,  California 


INTERVIEW  HISTORY- -by  Germaine  LaBerge 


In  1981,  Dr.  Harold  Kay  became  chairman  of  the  Class  of  1931  Gift 
Committee  as  the  class  considered  possibilities  for  their  fiftieth 
anniversary  gift  to  their  Alma  Mater.   They  chose  an  endowment  for  an 
oral  history  series,  focusing  on  alumni  who  have  contributed  in  special 
ways  to  their  communities.   Little  did  Harold  Kay  know  that  the  class 
would  want,  ten  years  later,  to  document  his  life.   In  fact,  it  took  a 
little  over  two  years  to  convince  him  to  say  yes  to  this  project.   When  I 
first  met  Dr.  Kay  on  the  eleventh  of  January,  1994,  to  discuss  the  oral 
history  process  and  the  important  issues  of  his  life,  his  departing 
comment  was,  "I  don't  have  very  much  to  say." 

Luckily  for  me  and  for  future  researchers,  we  forged  ahead.   Dr.  Kay, 
a  specialist  in  urology,  has  made  lasting  contributions  to  the  medical 
community  and  community  at  large:  as  president  of  the  Alameda  County 
Medical  Association,  he  initiated  the  polio  innoculation  drive  in  the 
sixties  (sugar  cubes);  he  opened  the  membership  door  to  Kaiser  doctors 
who  had  previously  been  excluded  (1963);  he  established  the  first 
residency  program  in  urology  at  Highland  Hospital  in  Oakland.  He  spoke 
about  these  issues  and  others  in  the  four  recorded  sessions  on  January  20 
and  27,  February  3  and  17,  1994.   We  always  met  in  the  morning,  either  in 
his  family  room  or  the  "back  bedroom,"  whose  walls  display  his  college 
and  medical  school  degrees,  his  memberships  in  various  medical 
associations  and  community  organizations.   My  only  sadness  for  readers  of 
this  volume  is  that  one  cannot  see  the  twinkle  in  his  eye  nor  hear  the 
witty  expression  of  his  voice.   Dr.  Kay's  sense  of  humor  is  unmatchable. 

His  deep  love  of  people  is  a  strong  trademark  --  whether  it  be  a 
patient,  a  fellow  serviceman  in  World  War  II,  a  medical  colleague,  his 
family.   From  an  early  age,  he  observed  his  mother  collecting  clothing 
and  food  for  people  in  need  (including  young  Yehudi  Menuhin  and  his 
family) ;  he  watched  his  father  organize  the  merchants  of  Berkeley  to  do 
the  same  (including  saving  Alta  Bates  Hospital  from  bankruptcy  in  the 
early  days).   Harold  Kay  has  gone  on  to  become  a  vital  part  of  his 
community  also- -serving  on  the  Piedmont  Emergency  Preparedness  Committee 
and  the  Planning  Commission,  participating  actively  at  Temple  Sinai, 
Rotary,  Masonic  Lodge,  and  Shrine.  He  well  deserves  to  be  the  latest 
addition  to  "The  University  of  California,  Source  of  Community  Leaders" 
oral  history  series.   Many  thanks  to  the  Class  of  1931  for  making  this 
interview  possible. 

Born  in  Omaha,  Nebraska,  in  1909,  Harold  Kay's  family  moved  to 
Berkeley< when  he  was  three  years  old.  He  attended  all  Berkeley  schools 
and  witnessed  the  Berkeley  Fire  of  1923.    In  his  oral  history.  Dr.  Kay 
describes  Berkeley  in  the  early  days  and  his  family's  experience  of 
warding  off  the  fire  and  aiding  the  victims.   Always  headed  toward  the 


xi 


University  of  California,  he  followed  his  older  brother  there  in  1927, 
taking  part  in  many  campus  activities:  he  managed  the  advertising 
department  for  the  Daily  Cal  freshman  year,  participated  in  the  Rally  and 
Reception  Committees,  witnessed  the  first  theft  of  the  Axe  by  Stanford 
students  wearing  Cal  rally  caps. 

After  receiving  his  B.A.  in  international  relations,  he  entered  the 
medical  school  at  Creighton  University,  Omaha.   Two  years  later,  he 
transferred  to  UCSF,  receiving  his  M.D.  in  1936.   Dr.  Kay  describes  the 
two  different  approaches  to  medical  education  and  his  reaction  to  both. 
He  took  some  postgraduate  training  in  anatomy  at  the  University  of 
Edinburgh  (Scotland)  where  he  and  his  new  bride,  Frances  Simon,  witnessed 
the  beginning  of  the  war  in  Europe  in  1938. 

Back  to  the  states  in  1939,  Dr.  Kay  re-established  his  practice  in 
urology  with  an  established  physician,  Dr.  Albert  Meads.   In  1941,  he 
entered  active  duty  as  a  naval  officer,  serving  on  Mare  Island,  San 
Francisco,  and  American  Samoa.   In  this  memoir,  he  recounts  his 
experiences  as  the  health  and  quarantine  officer  in  Pago  Pago,  building  a 
hospital  for  the  native  population  with  surplus  marine  supplies,  treating 
elephantiasis  and  yaws.  "There  were  14,000  natives  there,  I  guess  we 
examined  13,000,  and  did  a  lot  of  studies  on  it.  They  were  all  sent  to 
Washington,  and  of  course,  nobody  got  credit  for  it,  except  the  navy, 
[laughter]"  Dr.  Kay  remained  in  the  naval  reserves  for  twenty-eight 
years . 

He  became  a  solo  practitioner  after  the  war  and  joined  the  staff  of 
several  Bay  Area  hospitals—Highland,  Alta  Bates,  Peralta,  Herrick, 
Cowell,  to  name  a  few.  In  addition  he  was  consulting  urologist  at  the 
U.S.  Veterans  Hospital  in  Livermore,  the  U.S.  Naval  Hospital -Oak  Knoll 
(helping  to  keep  it  open),  and  the  U.S.  Air  Force.   He  taught  nursing 
students  at  Providence  Hospital  and  medical  students  at  UCSF.  In  the 
midst  of  his  work,  he  encountered  some  prejudice  because  of  his  Jewish 
faith.  It  prompted  him,  without  bitterness,  to  take  on  leadership 
positions  on  hospital  staffs  and  in  local,  state  and  national  medical 
associations.   He  speaks  about  all  this  in  his  oral  history,   discussing 
issues  such  as  national  health  care,  including  Medicare,  and  testifying 
before  the  House  Ways  and  Means  Committee  on  that  subject  in  1974  . 

Dr.  Kay's  outside  activities  included  membership  on  the  Alameda 
County  Institutions  Commission  and  Alameda  County  Mental  Health 
Commission.  With  a  federal  grant,  he  helped  establish  guidelines  for 
Emergency  Medical  Services  for  both  Alameda  and  Contra  Costa  Counties. 
His  energy  was  endless.   He  served  as  president  of  the  following: 
Alameda -Contra  Costa  County  Medical  Association,  Northern  California 
Urological  Association,  and  the  Western  Section  of  the  American 
Urological  Association.  After  retiring  from  active  practice  in  1976,  he 


xii 


took  a  "job"  with  the  Alameda  County  Blood  Bank  and  in  his  memoir  speaks 
about  blood  testing  and  the  AIDS  epidemic. 

Frances  Simon  Kay  is  an  important  part  of  his  life.   Readers  will 
enjoy  the  story  of  their  meeting  and  can  read  between  the  lines  to  know 
that  she  has  been  his  mainstay  through  many  happy  years  of  marriage. 
Mrs.  Kay  always  met  the  interviewer  at  the  door  and  made  sure  conditions 
were  just  right  for  our  tape-recorded  sessions.  In  addition,  Mrs.  Kay  has 
written  a  fine  tribute  to  her  husband  as  introduction  to  this  volume,  for 
which  we  thank  her.   She  also  helped  gather  pictures  and  newspaper  and 
journal  articles  for  background  material. 

The  tape  recorded  sessions  were  transcribed  by  Shannon  Page  at  the 
Regional  Oral  History  Office.   Dr.  Kay  never  met  his  transcriber  but 
spoke  to  her  personally  on  tape,  an  example  of  his  interest  in  others. 
The  transcript  was  lightly  edited  by  the  interviewer  and  Dr.  Kay,  indexed 
by  Cici  Nickerson  at  the  office. 

As  his  life  has  enriched  the  lives  of  many  others  since  1909,  so  has 
it  enriched  the  life  of  the  interviewer.  Dr.  Kay  has  not  enjoyed  good 
health  in  the  past  couple  of  years,  needing  regular  blood  transfusions 
and  restricting  his  activity  somewhat.  Nonetheless  he  had  good  humour  and 
an  ability  to  describe  situations  with  depth  and  wisdom.   I  always  went 
away  with  a  renewed  sense  of  well-being  and  faith  in  humanity.   For  this 
and  for  his  many  contributions,  I  owe  Dr.  Kay  my  gratitude. 


Germaine  LaBerge 
Interviewer/Editor 


June  10,  1994 

Regional  Oral  History  Office 

The  Bancroft  Library 

University  of  California,  Berkeley 


xiii 


Regional  Oral  History  Office 
Room  486  The  Bancroft  Library 


University  of  California 
Berkeley.  California  94720 


BIOGRAPHICAL  INFORMATION 
(Please  write  clearly.   Use  black  ink.) 


Your  full  name 
Date  of  birth 

Father's  full  name 
Occupation 


Occupation 
Your  spouse 

Occupation 
Your  children 


Mother's  full  name 

/vP*t*«x'C^^crr'_/C* 


p— C  <. "«  •  +*-^*j  \^.-      Birthplace  ^——o  . 

73<r€*Us  X«y.  a. ST. 


Where  did  you  grow  up? 
Present  conjTjynitv 
Education 


/&.*JLJZc+*  O 


Areas  of  expertise 


Other  interests  or  activities 


Organizations  in  which  you  are  active 


I  FAMILY  BACKGROUND,  CHILDHOOD,  AND  EDUCATION 

[Interview  1:  January  20,  1994 ]## 
Parents  Come  to  Berkeley 


LaBerge:   This  is  the  first  interview  with  Dr.  Harold  Kay  on  January  20, 
1994.   Why  don't  we  start  with  you  telling  me  about  where  you 
were  born  and  a  little  bit  about  your  parents? 

Kay:      I  was  born  in  Omaha,  Nebraska,  on  August  28,  1909.   At  the  age  of 
three,  we  left  Omaha  and  came  to  Berkeley,  California. 

LaBerge:   What  prompted  the  move  for  your  parents? 

Kay:      My  father  was  in  business  in  Omaha  with  his  brothers,  and  they 
expanded  and  they  asked  him  to  leave.   He  came  here  because  my 
mother's  brother  had  already  —  was  here  in  Oakland.   Came  here  to 
Berkeley  because  it  was  close  by,  and  he  went  into  the  Lincoln 
Market  in  Berkeley,  an  old  establishment  there. 

LaBerge:   So  is  that  what  he  did? 

Kay:      Yes.   He  ran  the  Lincoln  Market  in  Berkeley. 

LaBerge:   Was  it  like  a  grocery  store? 

Kay:      It  was  a  meat  market  and  grocery  store,  on  University  Avenue 
where  Shattuck  runs  into  it. 

LaBerge:   So  is  that  where  McDonald's  is  now? 
Kay:      No,  I  think  Thrifty 's  there  now. 
LaBerge:   Okay. 

Kay:      The  street  goes  right  into  it.   You  know,  when  you  go  down 

Shattuck  Avenue,  you  have  to  turn  left.   If  you  kept  going,  you'd 
go  right  into  the  store. 


LaBerge:   Oh,  okay. 
Kay:      It's  Thrifty. 

LaBerge:   Oh,  there's  a  Thrifty,  I  think;  you're  right.   Was  he  in  that 
business  also  in  Nebraska? 

Kay:  Yes. 

LaBerge:  Did  your  mother's  brother  also  work  here? 

Kay:  Yes,  he  had  a  market  in  Oakland. 

LaBerge:  So  it  was  sort  of  in  the  family.   What  were  your  parents'  names? 

Kay:  Anne  Lesser  Kay,  and  Joseph  Kay. 

LaBerge:   Can  you  tell  me  anything  about  their  background?  Were  they  born 
in  the  United  States? 

Kay:      My  father  was  born  in  Russia.   My  mother  was  born  in  Chicago. 
LaBerge:   Anything  interesting  in  how  they  met  or  their  background? 

Kay:      I  know  nothing  about  it.   Very  interesting  to  know  nothing  about 
it.   I  know  they  got  married  at  a  very  young  age.   They 
celebrated  a  sixty-third  wedding  anniversary. 

LaBerge:   Wow.   Did  you  know  your  grandparents? 
Kay:      Yes,  I  did.   I  had  met  them  several  times. 
LaBerge:   Did  they  live  in  Omaha? 

Kay:      They  lived  in  Omaha.   My  father's  grandparents,  my  mother's 

father  lived  here  in  Oakland.   Came  to  Oakland  from  Kansas  City 
many  years  before. 

LaBerge:   Do  you  have  brothers  and  sisters? 
Kay:      One  brother  and  one  sister. 
LaBerge:   Older,  younger? 

Kay:      I  have  an  older  brother  and  a  younger  sister.   Fortunately,  both 
graduates  of  the  University  of  California. 

LaBerge:   What  are  their  names? 


Kay:      Sidney  is  my  brother,  and  Shirley  is  my  sister.   My  brother  lives 
in  San  Francisco;  my  sister  lives  in  Stockton. 

LaBerge:  So  you  were  the  middle  child. 

Kay:  I  was  the  middle  child. 

LaBerge:  Did  that  have  any  effect  on  you,  the  way  psychologists  talk? 

Kay:  No.   None  at  all. 

LaBerge:  Was  your  mother  a  homemaker? 

Kay:  Yes.   After  many  years --at  first,  she  was  working  with  my  father. 

LaBerge:  In  the  market? 

Kay:  Yes. 

LaBerge:  Did  you  also  work  in  the  market? 

Kay:  Yes. 

LaBerge:  What  did  you  do  there? 

Kay:      Everything.   Everything.   I  worked  mainly  in  the  delicatessen  and 
the  poultry  department.   I  drove  in  the  summertime;  we  had 
delivery  service.   This  is  a  thing  of  the  past. 

LaBerge:   Yes.   I  remember  growing  up  in  Michigan  having  delivery  service. 
Kay:      So  I  knew  pretty  much  Berkeley,  as  it  existed  then.   Not  now. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  get  your  license  before  age  sixteen  then?   Were  you  doing 
this--? 

Kay:      I  think  fourteen. 

LaBerge:   Did  your  brother  and  sister  also  work  in  the  market? 

Kay:      My  brother  did,  yes,  in  the  latter  years. 

Recollections  of  World  War  I 
LaBerge:   Can  you  tell  me  something  about  your  schooling  in  Berkeley? 


Kay:  Yes,  I'll  tell  you  about  the  schooling  in  Berkeley.  I  went  to 
Washington  Elementary  School  kindergarten,  first  through  sixth 
grades.  The  school  still  exists. 

LaBerge:   On  the  corner  of  Martin  Luther  King,  is  it? 

Kay:      Yes,  Martin  Luther  King  and  I  forgot  what  the  other  street  is. 
The  thing  I  recall  mostly  about  that  was  when  I  was  in 
kindergarten,  there  was  World  War  I.   Each  one  had  a  garden,  you 
had  to  have  a  garden  and  take  care  of  it. 

LaBerge:   At  school? 

Kay:      Yes,  at  school.   It  was  held  behind  the  church  that's  right 

there,  one  of  the  churches  there- -I've  forgotten  it  now- -but  they 
gave  the  backyard  for  this.   We  all  had  a  little--. 

LaBerge:  Was  it  called  a  victory  garden  or--? 

Kay:  Yes.   It  wasn't  victory  yet;  it  was  a  war  garden. 

LaBerge:  So  what  did  you  grow  there? 

Kay:  I  grew  radishes. 

LaBerge:  Anything  else  you  remember  about  World  War  I? 

Kay:      Yes,  I  remember  very  well  during  the  influenza  thing.   I  will 
describe  that  to  you:   we  all  had  garlic  around  our  necks  on  a 
string  to  keep  the  flu  away.   We  wore  masks  when  we  went  to 
school  because  of  the  flu,  during  that.   I  remember  selling 
newspapers- -I  guess  I  was  four  or  five,  five  or  six- -extras  when 
the  war  was  declared,  and  when  the  war  was  over.   We  had  no  radio 
or  any  communication  except  the  papers.   That's  the  way  we  did 
it. 

I  always  remember  when  the  war  was  over,  on  November 
eleventh  at  eleven  o'clock  at  night  we  got  out  of  bed  and  went  up 
to  Center  Street  and  Shattuck,  where  there  was  a  big  celebration 
held.   There  was  a  Southern  Pacific  station  there,  and  the  city 
band.   The  fire  department  was  there,  police  department.   They 
had  bands  and  everything.   Of  course,  most  people  don't  remember 
that. 

LaBerge:  No,  for  sure.  So  at  eleven  p.m.,  that  would  just  happen  to  be 
California  time  when  the  news  came  through? 

Kay:      Yes,  the  news  came  through. 


LaBerge:   Did  you  know  anybody  who  was  fighting  in  the  war? 

Kay:      No.   A  couple  of  relatives  were  in  the  war,  but  never  fought 
overseas.   They  were  here. 

I  remember  the  other  thing  about  World  War  I  was  where 
Berkeley  High  athletic  field  is  now,  was  a  big  empty  lot,  and 
they  were  training  pilots  from  Cal  how  to  manipulate  little 
planes.   I  forgot  what  they  called  them,  but  the  pilots  were 
trained  there .   They  would  go  up  about  ten  feet  and  then  come 
down  on  that  big  area,  that  lot,  which  is  now  a  football  field. 

LaBerge:   Would  you  go  over  there  as  children  to  just  watch? 

Kay:      Watch  it,  yes.   Just  went  there  to  watch  it.   I  don't  think  these 
things  are  important. 

LaBerge:   Oh,  they  are.   There  aren't  enough  people  who  are  telling  me 
stories,  or  who  would  even  know  that- -this  is  sort  of  part  of 
history  of  Berkeley,  too,  and  how  it's  developed. 

Kay:      Well,  I  could  tell  you  a  lot  about  that.   But  that's  about  all  I 
can  remember  about  World  War  I . 


The  City  of  Berkeley 


LaBerge:   You  lived  in  that  section  of  Berkeley? 

Kay:      We  lived  in  that  section  of  Berkeley.   That  section  of  Berkeley 
below  Grove  [now  Martin  Luther  King,  Jr.  Way]  had  quite  a  few 
professors,  had  the  police  chief  and  the  mayor  of  Berkeley  at  one 
time  living  there.   It  was  a  very  nice --it  wasn't  the  exclusive 
neighborhood;  it  was  a  nice  neighborhood.   The  exclusive 
neighborhood  has  always  been  Claremont  district.   We  even  had  a 
farm- -when  they  say  farms  in  Berkeley  and  laugh  about  it- -about  a 
block  from  us  people  had  cows.   They  used  to  take  them  up  to 
Dwight  Way  to  be  in  the  hills  in  the  summertime.   And  then  they'd 
bring  them  down  and  milk  them.   We  used  to  see  that. 

LaBerge:   I  didn't  realize  until  last  week  that  Dwight  stops  at  one  point, 
but  it  keeps  going  up  there  past  Panoramic. 

Kay:      Yes.   And  then  I  don't  think  people  remember,  but  all  the- -where 
Berkeley  High  is,  there  were  homes  there.   They  moved  them  all 
down  to- -I'm  trying  to  think  where  it  is --there  were  two  square 


Which  we  watched 
Let's  see,  what 


blocks  of  homes  moved,  and  were  moved  down  to  McGee  and 
something.   There's  old  homes  down  there. 

LaBerge:   To  make  room  for  the  high  school? 

Kay:      Yes.   And  the  buildings  around  there.   Used  to  take  a  day  to  move 
a  house.   They  rolled  them;  they  used  rollers,  not  wheels,  but 
rolling  blocks  and  roll  them  along  the  street. 
as  kids  because  there  was  something  happening, 
else  can  I  tell  you  about  Berkeley? 

LaBerge:   Were  Berkeley  politics  always  so  interesting? 

Kay:      No,  not  really.   It  was  very  conservative  Berkeley  politics.   It 
was  a  very  interesting- -most  of  them  were  businessmen- -very  few 
women,  of  course.   Thank  goodness,  [laughter]  Very  conservative. 

LaBerge:   Did  the  university  dominate  the  town? 

Kay:      No.   The  university- -there  were  two  parts  to  Berkeley.   One  was 
the  university  which  was  separate,  and  then  there  was  downtown 
Berkeley,  which  was  separate,  completely  separate.   In  the  summer 
time,  of  course,  the  university  was  practically  shut  down  except 
for  summer  sessions.   Very  few  people  came.   But  there  was 
definitely  a  university  group  and  a  city  of  Berkeley,  which  had 
nothing  but  home -owned  stores,  which  have  now  disappeared 
completely,  I  think.   I  think  the  only- -there  are  two  stores 
still  remaining.   That  would  be  Huston's  and  a  jewelry  store. 

LaBerge:   Oh,  Lee  Frank's? 

Kay:      Frank's.   And  that's  about  the  only  ones  that  were  existing 
before,  now  that  many  of  the  branches  all  came  in.   People  I 
don't  think  realize  that  we  had  two  trains.   Southern  Pacific  had 
electric  trains  that  served  Berkeley  from  San  Francisco,  the 
ferry  to  San  Francisco,  and  Key  Route.   The  Key  Routes  went  on 
one  side  of  Shattuck,  and  the  other  one  went  on  the  other  side  of 
Shattuck.   Key  Route  ended  at  University.   There  was  a  Southern 
Pacific  station  there  for  years.   It  was  two  blocks  there,  sort 
of  a  triangle  like.   That  was  the  Southern  Pacific  station.   They 
used  to  bring  the  mail  in,  in  the  mail  car,  every  day  in  the 
morning  by  steam  train,  leave  it  there  during  the  day,  and  then 
the  outgoing  mail. 

People  traveled  by  the  trains  and  ferries  to  San  Francisco, 
and  then  they  got  excited,  they  put  in  a  Berkeley  ferry,  which 
was  at  the  end  of  University  Avenue.   And  of  course,  the  Oakland 
ferries  and  car  ferry.   You  could  take  a  streetcar  for  a  nickel 


from  Berkeley  and  go  all  the  way  to  Alameda. 
want  to  know? 


What  else  do  you 


LaBerge:   What  would  you  do  for  entertainment  as  kids  growing  up  in 

Berkeley?   Is  that  go  to  Alameda  beach,  or  go  to  San  Francisco? 

Kay:      In  the  summertime,  we  went  to  Alameda  beaches.   Otherwise,  we 

played  baseball.   What  the  kids  do  today,  never  heard  of  soccer 
and  there  wasn't  basketball,  or  very  much  of  it.   Except 
organized  basketball  games. 


City  Schools  and  Bov  Scouts 


LaBerge:   Well,  then,  where  did  you  go  to  junior  high,  after  Washington 
School? 

Kay:      Garfield  Junior  High,  which  is  now  called  I  guess  Martin  Luther 
King.   At  the  present  location  of  it,  it  had  just  moved  there 
when  I  went.   It  had  been  where- -Garfield  had  been  where  the  Rose 
and  Shattuck  Avenue,  that  whole  big  area,  that  block,  that's 
where  the  old  school  was.   Then  they  moved  down  to  where  they  are 
now.   For  the  first  three  years  there,  we  had  no  sidewalks,  so 
when  it  rained,  it  was  all  muddy. 

We  had  quite  a  school.   In  fact,  quite  a  few  of  the  people 
at  Cal  today  went  to  Garfield.   And  then  I  remember  having  a 
drive  to  build  an  auditorium  there.   That  was  successful.   We  had 
another  drive  to  build  a  gymnasium,  and  that  was  successful.   By 
drives,  I  mean  we  went  out  to  the  public  to  get  the  funds. 

LaBerge:  Did  the  students  participate? 

Kay:  Yes. 

LaBerge:  Selling  tickets,  or--? 

Kay:  Selling  tickets,  and  having  shows  and  things  like  that. 

LaBerge:  Did  you  become  involved  in  scouting  when  you  were  there? 

Kay:      When  I  was  involved  in  scouting--!  guess  was  there.   I  went  all 
through  scouting  except  I  came  three  merit  badges  short.   The 
reason  of  that  was  in  those  days,  we  had  to  take  a  bird  merit 
badge.   Charles  Keeler,  an  old-time  Berkeley  poet  laureate,  was 
on  the  board.   We  used  to  go  before  a  board.   He  was  into  birds, 
and  he  questioned.   Once  you  passed  him,  you  were  over  it,  but  I 


LaBerge 
Kay: 
LaBerge 
Kay: 

LaBerge : 

Kay: 
LaBerge 

Kay: 


LaBerge ; 
Kay: 


LaBerge : 
Kay: 


never  did  pass  him.   He  was  dynamite.   I  still  remember  him.   But 
he's  a  famous  Berkeley  person. 

Was  he  Berkeley  poet  laureate? 

I  think  so. 

He  must  have  had  something  to  do  with  the  scouts,  also? 

Yes,  he  was.   He  was  on  the  board  of  review.   We  called  it  court 
of  honor.   [laughs]  You  had  a  hard  time  passing  bird  study  with 
him.   So  I  never  did  become  an  Eagle  Scout.   I  went  through 
scouting  with  Fred  Stripp,1  if  you  remember  him. 

I  sure  do.   I  interviewed  him  right  before  he  died.   And  we  have 
a  picture  in  his  volume,  in  fact,  of  him  as  an  Eagle  Scout  with-- 
I  don't  know,  four  or  five  other -- 


He  passed  the  bird  study. 

He  passed  the  bird  study, 
tough . 


[laughing]   Well,  it  must  have  been 


It  was.   I  went  up  twice  and  failed  it,  and  then  gave  up.   Two 
different  times.   Then  in  scouting,  we  had  a  scout  camp  in  north 
Berkeley.   We  used  to  go  overnight.   We'd  take  a  streetcar  to  the 
end  of  the  line,  what's  now  Kensington,  and  walk  about  two  miles 
to  a  camp.   It  was  not  an  official  camp,  but  our  troop  used  to  go 
there  on  weekends.   Then  it  became  the  Berkeley  Camp;  I  don't 
know  whether  it's  still  there  or  not,  north  Berkeley. 


I  don't  know  if  there  is  one  there, 
something  now.   I  don't  know. 


There  might  be  a  park  or 


Used  to  be  there.   That's  about  all  about  scouting.   I  have  a 
picture  downstairs,  but  I  don't  know  where  it  is,  of  scouting 
when  we  had  a  drive  for  something  during  the  war,  or  right  after 
the  war.   They  took  a  picture  of  me  for  some  reason,  with  a  flour 
sack  or  something.   But  I  can't  recall  exactly  what  it  was  about. 

From  there,  you  went  to  Berkeley  High  School,  is  that  right? 
Berkeley  High. 


JSee  Fred  Sheridan  Stripp,  Jr. ,  "Fred  Stripp:  University  Debate  Coach, 
Berkeley  Civic  Leader,  and  Pastor,"  an  oral  history  conducted  in  1990  by 
Germaine  LaBerge,  Regional  Oral  History  Office,  The  Bancroft  Library, 
University  of  California,  Berkeley,  1990. 


LaBerge : 
Kay: 


And  what  memorable  experiences  did  you  have  there? 
particular  teachers  who  influenced  you? 


Any 


One  of  the  teachers  at  Garfield  was  a  Mrs.  Smith  that  I  remember 
very  well.   She  had  been  at  Washington  and  then  came  to  Garfield. 
She  was  a  music  teacher.   But  I  never  became  musical.   And  then 
at  Berkeley  High,  there  was  a  Mr.  Grey  in  English.   A  Mr.  Winter 
was  the  Shakespearean  teacher,  and  I  remember  him  very  well.   He 
used  to  play  the  part  of  the  dog  in  one  of  the  Shakespearean 
plays  that  has  a  dog  in  it.   He  used  to  get  on  the  floor  and  act 
like  the  dog.   Everybody  waited  for  that. 

I  was  not  a  very  good  student  at  Berkeley  High.   I  played 
football   at  only  130  pounds,  on  the  football  team,  and  played 
basketball,  at  130  pounds- -basketball  team.   I  got  to  the  end  of 
my  second  year  and  realized  I  had  no- -I  shouldn't  tell  you  this-- 
I  had  no- -I  think  I  had  a  C  average.   Therefore,  I  couldn't  get 
into  college. 


Deciding  to  Go  to  Cal 


Kay:      But  at  that  time,  the  principal  had  the  right,  if  he  thought  a 

student  was  all  right,  to  give  him  his  credits  to  go  to  school- 
college.   So  I  went  in  to  see  the  principal,  who  was  [Carl] 
Biedenbach. 

LaBerge:   Oh,  do  you  know  his  daughter? 

Kay:      Yes.   His  daughter  [Jane  Biedenbach  Koll]  is  a  very  good  friend 
of  my  sister's . 

LaBerge:   Okay.   Because  I  interviewed  her  when  I  interviewed  Mike  Koll,2 
too.   So  what  did  Mr.  Biedenbach--? 

Kay:      If  I  would  get  all  straight  A's  my  senior  year,  he  would 

recommend  me  to  college.   And  I  got  all  straight  A's  my  last 
year,  after  a  C  average. 

LaBerge:   Wow.   In  your  home,  was  it  assumed  you  would  go  to  college?   Was 
there- -? 


2See  Michael  J.  Koll,  "The  Lair  of  the  Bear  and  the  Alumni 

Association,  1949-1993,"  an  oral  history  conducted  in  1991-1993  by  Germaine 
LaBerge,  Regional  Oral  History  Office,  The  Bancroft  Library,  University  of 
California,  Berkeley,  1993. 


10 


Kay:      It  was  definitely.   My  brother  had  gone  to  college,  and  I  had  to 
go.   So  I  did  it. 

LaBerge:   So  you  were  definitely  encouraged  at  home. 

Kay:      Definitely.   In  fact,  my  mother  went  with  me  in  the  discussion 
with  Biedenbach,  in  his  decision  to--I  got  all  straight  A's, 
because  I  never  had  an  A  prior  to  that  time . 

LaBerge:   Were  you  interested  in  science  in  high  school,  or  no  special 
interest? 

Kay:      No  special  ones,  no. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  know  what  you  wanted  to  do  at  that  point? 

Kay:      No,  I  didn't  know  what  I  wanted  to  do  at  that  point.   I  had  to  go 
to  college.   So  I  did. 

LaBerge:   Was  it  always  going  to  be  the  university,  or  did  you  have  any 
other- -? 

Kay:      There  was  no  place  else  but  Cal .   During  high  school  years,  we 
used  to  always  go  up  there.   Of  course,  the  football  games.   I 
shouldn't  tell  you,  but  the  old  California  field  had  wire  around 
it,  and  we  had  cut  the  wire.   We  closed  it  up  during  the  week, 
and  it  was  the  way  of  our  getting  into  the  game,  and  to  track 
meets,  and  everything  else.   A  group  of  us  had  made  that 
arrangement . 

LaBerge:   Were  you  all  high  school  students  who  did  this? 

Kay:      Yes. 

LaBerge:   Is  this  where  Edwards  Field  is  now? 

Kay:      Yes,  it's  where  Edwards  Field  is  now.   That  was  the  main  football 
field  and  track  field.   Totally  open  stadium. 

LaBerge:  Well  tell  me,  what  prompted  Mr.  Biedenbach  to-- 

Kay:  Apparently -- 

LaBerge:  --he  must  have  seen  something  in  you  that-- 

Kay:  I  don't  know.   My  mother  took  me  there. 

LaBerge:  You  think  your  mother  influenced  this? 


11 


Kay:      Yes.   And  wanted  to  get  me  into  college.   So  she  asked  him  what 
could  he  do,  and  that's  what  he  said.   Apparently,  he  didn't 
think  I'd  do  it.   So  the  last  year,  I  became  [a  member  of]  the 
honor  society  and  all  those  other  things  that  the  straight-A's 
do. 

LaBerge:  Was  your  brother  still  at  Cal  when  you  started? 

Kay:  No,  he  graduated  in  '26,  and  I  started  in  '27. 

LaBerge:  What  did  you  start  out  majoring  in? 

Kay:  Pre-med. 

LaBerge:  So  you  must  have  had  some  idea  that  you  were  going  to  go  on. 

Kay:  Yes.   My  mother  thought  I  should  go  into  medicine. 

LaBerge:  So  you  did  what  she  told  you. 

Kay:      Yes.   That's  how  I  started.   Of  course,  I  always  had  the 

opportunity  of  going  back  to  work  in  the  market  if  I  failed. 

LaBerge:  Did  you  want  to  do  that? 

Kay:  No.   That's  why  I  went  to  medical  school --went  to  Cal. 

LaBerge:  How  many  science  classes  had  you  taken  in  high  school? 

Kay:  Only  the  ones  required. 

Naval  ROTC  in  College  and  The  Panama  Canal 


LaBerge:   Well,  tell  me  a  little  bit  about  your  college  days.   Did  you  live 
at  home? 

Kay:      I  lived  at  home.   We  lived  on  the  north  side  up  on  Rose  Street, 
had  to  walk  to  school.   A  man  by  the  name  of  [Admiral  Chester] 
Nimitz  lived  about  a  block  and  a  half  from  me,  and  I  used  to  go 
to  school,  would  walk  down  with  him  many  times,  because  that  was 
the  naval  ROTC  [Reserve  Officers  Training  Corps],  and  he  was 
commander. 

LaBerge:   Oh,  this  is  Admiral  Nimitz? 


12 


Kay:      Admiral  Nimitz.   He  was  commander  then,  and  then  became  a 

captain.  He  used  to  walk  to  school  with  me  quite  often,  just  so 
happened  the  same  time  we'd  leave.  Which  was  interesting.  What 
else  do  you  want  to  know  about  it? 

LaBerge:   How  did  you  happen  to  go  into  the  naval  ROTC?  Was  that  a  way  to 
finance  your  education,  or--? 

Kay:      It  was  just  something,  we  had  to  go  into  either  —  at  those  days, 
you  either  went  into  the  army  ROTC  or  the  naval  ROTC. 

LaBerge:   Oh,  I  see,  it  wasn't  a  choice. 

Kay:  And  I  had  a  choice,  because  I  was  in  the  second  class  of  naval 
ROTC.  It  had  just  started,  and  they  had  nicer  uniforms.  They 
had  nicer  trips  in  the  summer. 

LaBerge:   So  how  much  time  did  that  mean? 

Kay:      It  was  drill  once  a  week,  and  two  classes  during  the  week.   I 

continued  for  four  years.   The  last  two  years,  they  paid  you.   It 
was  ten  or  fifteen  dollars.   The  naval  ROTC  was  a  very 
interesting  thing.   In  my  sophomore  or  junior  year,  three  of  us-- 
I  can't  think  of  the  names  of  the  other  two- -had  an  opportunity 
to  go  in  a  battleship  through  the  [Panama]  Canal  to  New  York. 
That  was  an  interesting  trip. 

LaBerge:   Oh,  I  bet  it  was. 

Kay:      We  went  to  Panama,  Cuba,  and  two  of  us --one  was  going  on  to 
France  to  give  a  student  lecture  in  French  at  the  university 
there  or  something,  and  the  other  one  and  I  had  made  plans  to 
come  back  on  a  freighter.   We  were  all  set,  got  a  job  as 
deckhands  on  the  freighter  to  bring  us  back  through  the  Canal. 
But  going  up  the  East  Coast,  the  ship  had  trouble,  and  we  were 
two  days  late  getting  into  where  we  were  supposed  to  be  in,  and 
the  ship  we  were  to  meet  had  left.   So  we  were  stranded  in  New 
York  with  five  or  ten  dollars  in  our  pockets,  and  no  way  to  get 
home,  because  my  father  had  said,  "Don't  call  for  money  to  get 
home.   You  went  on  this  trip,  and  you  have  to  get  home  now." 

So  I  had  an  uncle  who  lived  in  New  York.   I  went  to  work  for 
six  weeks  there  and  made  enough  money  to  come  home.   I  came  as 
far  as  Omaha  where  my  grandmother  was,  and  she  gave  me  the  rest 
of  the  money. 

LaBerge:   Oh,  sure,  you  could  touch  Grandma  for- - [laughs] 


13 


Meeting  Frances  Simon 


LaBerge : 
Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 


LaBerge : 
Kay: 
LaBerge : 

Kay: 


LaBerge 
Kay: 


So  you  took  a  train  from  New  York  to  Omaha? 

Yes,  a  train  from  New  York  to  Omaha.   And  that  was,  I  should  tell 
you,  when  I  first  met  my  wife  on  that  trip  out  West  as  a  blind 
date . 

This  was  1929,  is  that  right? 

Yes,  right. 

** 

You  were  just  going  to  tell  me  how  you  met  your  wife  in  Omaha. 

I  was  in  Omaha  for  two  nights  and  two  days.   I  was  leaving  Sunday 
morning.   Saturday  afternoon,  I  got  a  call.   A  cousin  of  mine 
said,  "This  poor  girl's  date--."  There  was  a  big  party  that 
night,  which  of  course  I  was  not  invited  to.   This  poor  girl's 
date  was  coming  from  out  of  town,  and  he  cancelled  her  at  four- 
thirty  in  the  afternoon.   And  would  I  please  take  this  girl,  just 
to  take  her  out  there,  just  so  she  had  an  escort,  and  that  would 
be  all.   And  it  turned  out  to  be  my  future  wife.   But  I  only  met 
her  that  one  evening,  and  I  left,  forgetting  about  her,  and  came 
home  the  next  day. 

Did  she  also  forget  about  you? 
Yes.   Then  we  met  nine  years  later. 

Do  you  want  to  tell  me  that  story  now,  while  we're  on  it,  how  you 
met  nine  years  later? 

Well,  it  was  the  same  type  of  thing.   I  had  just  finished  my 
residency  at  Highland  [Hospital]  and  went  down  to  interview  with 
a  cousin  of  mine  who  was  a  practicing  physician  in  Los  Angeles. 
I  was  there  for  three  days  or  four  days,  and  sitting  around  that 
first  night,  my  same  cousin  said  to  me,  "What  are  you  doing  in 
Los  Angeles?  Why  don't  you  go  out?"   I  said,  "I  don't  know 
anybody  in  Los  Angeles."   She  said,  "You  remember  so-and-so  from 
Omaha.   You  had  a  date  with  her."   I  said,  "Faintly."   She  said, 
"Would  you  go  out  with  her?"   I  said,  "Okay,  fix  me  up."  And 
that  was  it. 

And  by  this  time,  had  she  moved  to  Los  Angeles? 

She  had  moved  to  Los  Angeles  in  '30,  I  guess  it  was.   She 
graduated  in  '31  from  UCLA  [University  of  California  at  Los 


14 


Angeles].   We  met,  and  then  had  our  two  nights  there.   Then  I 
came  up  north,  and  she  came  up  here.   We  had  a  total  of  six  dates 
before  we  got  married. 

LaBerge:   My  goodness.   I  guess  you  were  old  enough  to  know  your  own  mind 
by  that  time. 

Kay:      1  guess  so. 

LaBerge:   So  she  came  up  here,  and  you  lived  up  here. 

Kay:      Well,  she  came  up  here  to  visit,  but  then  we  got  married  in  Los 

Angeles,  then  came  up  here.   Because  nobody  lives  in  Los  Angeles, 
[with  twinkle  in  eye]   Don't  put  that  in.   [laughter]   Because 
UCLA  may  get  mad  at  me. 

LaBerge:   They  could.   What  was  her  background?  What  did  she  major  in  at 
UCLA? 

Kay:      She  majored  in  economics.   She  only  had  one  year  at  UCLA.   She 
was  two  years  at  the  University  of  Chicago,  one  year  at  the 
University  of  Nebraska,  then  UCLA. 


Trip  Through  the  Panama  Canal.  1929 


LaBerge:   So  let's  see.   We  were  doing  the  summer  between  your  sophomore 
and  junior  year-- 

Kay:      When  I  went  to  New  York. 

LaBerge:   What  was  that  like,  to  go  through  the  Panama  Canal? 

Kay:      Well,  there  is  an  interesting  story.   You  have  to  realize  the 

tradition  of  the  navy.   Apparently,  classes  were  very  important. 
The  class  of  '28,  I  guess,  they  were  junior  officers  on  board  the 
ship.   The  three  of  us  lived  with  them,  the  junior  officers. 
Coming  West,  the  class  of  '28  had  put  on  a  party  in  Panama  City 
for  the  class  of  '29.   Going  back,  the  class  of  '29  put  on  a 
party  for  '28,  and  it  was  quite  a  party  in  Panama  City. 

It  was  interesting,  we  being  the  three  of  us,  they  gave  us 
jobs  to  kind  of  train  us  what  to  do  on  a  ship.   For  example,  we 
were  put  on  navigation,  each  one  was  to  spend  some  time  in 
navigation.   I  ended  my  navigation  by  putting  the  ship  on  dry 
land  in  the  middle  of  Nicaragua.   We  had  to  spot  where  we  were 
all  the  time.   That  was  interesting. 


15 


Then  they  put  us  in  the  engine  room  for  three  days  while  we 
went  through  the  canal,  which  was  very  interesting.   It  was  quite 
hot  down  there.   I  mean,  these  are  watches,  four  on  and  four  off, 
watches.   Now,  it's  very  interesting  because  the  ship  we  were  on 
had  two-and-a-half  feet  short  of  the  width  of  the  canal- -if  it 
had  been  two-and-a-half  feet  wider,  we  couldn't  have  gone  through 
the  canal.   So  they  had  a  lot  of  trouble  going  through,  and  we 
had  to  watch  how  close  we  were  to  the  walls  of  the  canal,  because 
the  side  of  the  ship,  people  didn't  know  that  below  there  were 
bellows  sticking  out  for  torpedoes  that  would  be  exploded 
outside  the  ship. 

And  while  in  Panama,  they  had  one  plane  on  the  battleship, 
and  they  took  us,  if  we  wanted  to  go,  for  a  ride  over  the  canal, 
we  had  the  use  of  the  planes.   So  they  had  us  catapulted  off  the 
ship  in  an  airplane,  and  went  over  the  canal  and  came  back.   It 
was  a  very  nice  trip. 

LaBerge:   Had  you  ever  been  on  a  plane  before? 

Kay:      No.   We  said  we  had  been.   That  was  the  story  of  that. 

LaBerge:   Had  you  ever  been  out  of  California- -other  than  living  in  Omaha 
and  moving? 

Kay :      No . 

LaBerge:   So  this  was  really  something. 

Kay:      Right.   Oh,  we  went  to  Haiti,  too.   That  was  quite  an  episode 

that  we  went  to  Haiti,  Port-au-Prince.   We  were  told  in  Panama  we 
didn't  have  to  wear  uniforms  to  shore,  but  in  Haiti  it  was 
absolutely  necessary  to  wear  a  uniform  to  shore. 

LaBerge:   Because? 

Kay:      Because  the  feeling  they  had,  the  Haitians,  for  us.   There  had 
been  a  great  marine  detachment  down  there  trying  to  help  them 
out.   Voodooism  was  prominent  down  there,  and  they  played  the 
voodoo  drums  until  they  dropped  dead  sometimes.   So  the  marines 
were  taking  away  their  voodoo  drums,  and  we  had  heard  about  that. 
So  we  went  to  the  marines  to  see  if  we  could  get  voodoo  drums. 
They  said  they  couldn't  give  them  out  to  us. 

We  did  take  a  car  out  into  what  we  called  "boondocks,"  into 
the  country,  and  the  natives  threw  rocks  at  the  car  when  they  saw 
the  uniforms.   So  we  had  to  turn  around  and  come  back.   Then  our 
driver  had  a  man  with  him  who,  he  said,  "You  pay  him."   We  said, 
"We  didn't  hire  him."  He  said,  "You  pay  him."   But  fortunately, 


16 


it  was  at  the  marine  headquarters  where  all  this  was  taking 
place,  so  one  of  the  marines  came  over  and  said,  "Are  you  having 
trouble?"  We  told  him.   He  said,  "You  go  on  into  the 
commandant's  house  where  there  is  a  reception.   I'll  take  care  of 
them." 

So  we  were  afraid  after  that.   We  did  not  go  out  at  night 
the  three  nights  we  were  in  Haiti,  because  of  the  fear  of  being 
in  uniform.   They  didn't  like  Americans  at  that  time  at  all.   And 
they  still  don't,  apparently. 

LaBerge:   How  about  Cuba? 

Kay:      Cuba,  we  were  on  our  own.   We  did  not  have  to  wear  uniforms.   We 
were  there  two  days,  in  Havana.   It  was  quite  an  open  city  in 
those  days . 

LaBerge:   Do  you  want  to  expand  on  that? 

Kay:      No,  I'd  better  not  expand  on  that,  [laughter]  There  were  a  lot  of 
night  clubs. 

LaBerge:   And  no  ill  will  toward  Americans? 

Kay:      None  at  all.   No,  they  were  happy  with  us. 

LaBerge:   What  did  you  do  in  New  York  for  your  uncle  to--? 

Kay:      Well,  he  had  just  taken  over  some  bankrupt  stores  there,  grocery 
stores.   So  I  helped  him  do  the  inventory. 

LaBerge:   You  were--? 

Kay:      I  lived  at  his  house.   Before  I  contacted  him,  I  had  lived  in  my 
fraternity  house  there.   They  asked  for  a  dollar  a  day.   I  spent 
a  dollar  a  day  for  food.   Used  to  go  to  the- -I  forget  the  name  of 
the  place -- 

LaBerge:  Horn  and  Hardart? 

Kay :  Yes . 

LaBerge:  Yes.   I  went  to  school  in  New  York. 

Kay :  And  had  one  meal  a  day . 

LaBerge:  What  was  your  fraternity? 

Kay:  Zeta  Beta  Tau.   You've  heard  of  it? 


Harold  Kay,    circa  1931. 


17 


LaBerge:  I  have,  but  I  don't  know  what  the  different  fraternities  are. 

Kay:  Louis  Heilbron- -did  you  do  Louis  Heilbron? 

LaBerge:  I  didn't,  but  someone  did.   Did  he  belong  to  the  same  one? 

Kay:  Yes. 

LaBerge:   So  you  stayed  there  in  New  York- -was  it  Columbia's  or  NYU's  [New 
York  University]--? 

Kay:      Columbia's,  125th  [Street].   In  those  days,  it  wasn't  quite  as 

bad.   I  slept  there.   The  other  fellow  with  me  slept  with  me,  but 
he  went  home  earlier.   He  got  money  from  his  father  and  he  went 
home.   That  was  three  or  four  days  before  I  even  found  my  uncle. 
I  found  my  uncle  by  calling  home,  reversing  the  charges.   They 
told  me  where  he  was,  because  I  didn't  know  where  he  was.   He 
lived  in  New  Jersey,  so  I  went  over  and  stayed  with  him  and 
stayed  there  six  weeks  to  get  enough  money  to  come  home. 

LaBerge:   Well,  thankfully  you  had  the  time  before  school  started,  I  guess, 
to  do  that . 

Kay:      I  got  home  a  week  before  school  started.   We  had  planned  the  trip 
on  the  freighter,  which  was  going  to  take  that  long  to  come  home. 
We  did  go  down  to  the  waterfront  every  day,  trying  to  get  a  job, 
but  there  were  no  jobs.   That  was  an  experience,  to  see  these 
people  waiting  to  get  jobs  on  the  waterfront,  what  was  going  on 
there . 

LaBerge:   Because  this  is  right  in  the  midst  of  the  Depression,  isn't  it? 

Kay:      It  was  just  before  the  Depression.   Just  before.   So  we  were  glad 
we  were  going  to  college  and  not  being  a  deckhand. 


Berkeley  Campus  and  The  First  Time  Stanford  Stole  the  Axe.  1930 


LaBerge:   Was  it  difficult  to  finance  your  way  through  college? 

Kay:      No. 

LaBerge:   Because  the  fees  were  so  low  and--? 

Kay:      Fees  were  so  low,  and  we  didn't  do  very  much.   My  father  paid  the 
fraternity  fees  for  me.   I  didn't  work  during  college  at  all. 
No,  I  take  that  back:   I  worked  on  Friday  afternoons  and 


18 


Saturdays  in  the  store  to  get  money  for  my  recreation,  which 
was- -I  got  paid  five  dollars,  and  that  was  usually  gone  by  the 
end  of  the  weekend.   Very  quickly.   In  those  days,  you  took  dates 
out  on  the  streetcar.  Sometimes  I  got  use  of  the  car. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  have  one  family  car? 
Kay:      One  family  car. 

LaBerge:  So  it  would  be  hard  to  all  have  the  use  of  it.  Where  would  you 
go  on  the  streetcar  for  entertainment? 

Kay:      To  the  theaters,  and  shows. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  ever  live  in  the  fraternity  house? 

Kay :      No . 

LaBerge:   So  you  lived  at  home  the  whole  time- -that  also  probably  made  it  a 
lot  cheaper,  to  live  at  home. 

Kay:      Yes. 

LaBerge:   I  know  you  were  involved  in  some  things  on  campus,  at  least  when 
you  were  a  senior.   What  activities? 

Kay:      Junior--!  mean  during  school,  I  was  on  the  Rally  Committee.   In 
my  senior  year,  I  was  chairman  of  the  Reception  Committee,  which 
was  a  group  of  juniors- -sophomores,  rather,  who  were  the 
reception  for  all  the  football,  and  all  the  people  coming  to  the 
campus.   I  don't  know  whether  they  have  it  now  or  not. 

LaBerge:   I  don't  know  if  they  do,  either. 

Kay:      I  was  on  the  Rally  Committee  when  the  Axe  was  stolen.   I  remember 
that  very  well. 

LaBerge:   The  Axe  was  stolen  by  Berkeley,  or  by  Stanford? 
Kay:      By  Stanford.   That  was  the  first  time  they  stole  it. 
LaBerge:   Oh,  my.   What  year  was  that? 

Kay:  Was  that  '30?  I  believe  it  was  '30.  We  always  used  to  take  it 
down  to  the  bank  at  the  corner  of  Center  and  Shattuck  and  leave 
it  there.  We  got  it  down  there,  and  it  was  the  people  who  took 
it  from  us . 

LaBerge:  You  were  actually  in  the  group? 


19 


Kay:       [nods] 

LaBerge:   So  you  would  take  it  to  the  bank,  like  to  the  safety  deposit  box? 

Kay:      Yes,  after --yes.   And  we  went  down  there,  and  these  people  said, 
"We'll  take  that  from  you."  It  was  a  Stanford  group. 

LaBerge:   You  didn't  know  it  was  the  Stanford  group?  Oh,  my  gosh. 

Kay:      No.   They  had  stolen  our  caps,  so  they  were  wearing  rally  caps. 

LaBerge:   What  were  your  favorite  courses  when  you  were  in  college,  or 
any--? 

Kay :  None . 

LaBerge:  None?  Any  memorable  teachers? 

Kay:  [pause]   There  was  one  in  economics  whose  name  was--what-- 

LaBerge:  Oh,  I'm  trying  to  think- -Ira  Cross? 

Kay:      Ira  Cross.   That's  the  one  that  I  guess  would  be  the  best. 
Otherwise,  there  was  no  one  in  particular. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  take  a  lot  of  economics  courses? 

Kay:      Well,  that's  an  interesting  story.   I  took,  of  course,  all  the 

pre-med  courses.   Came  to- -applied  to  Cal  medical  school.   I  had 
forgotten  about  a  one -unit  physics  course  which  was  given  only 
one  semester,  so  they  wouldn't  accept  me  without  that.   And  then 
I  realized--!  had  never  realized  any  of  this,  but  I  was  surprised 
when  the  subject  came  up.   So  it  was  the  end  of  my  junior  year. 
I  decided  that  I  had  to  have  something  in  case  I  didn't  get  into 
medical  school,  so  I  went  into  international  relations,  the 
School  of  Economics- -anyway.   I  took  twenty-six  units  for  two 
semesters  to  get  all  the  basics  in  everything  in  economics, 
public  relations  and  so  forth.   Of  course,  they  would  only  give 
me  credit  for  sixteen.   The  other  I  had  to  take,  so  I  had  all 
kinds  of  econ  courses  to  take.   I'm  trying  to  think  what  other 
courses  I  took- -anyway .   And  international  law  court,  and  things 
like  that. 

My  training  in  medicine,  pre-med  courses,  made  it  very  easy 
for  me  to  take  the  twenty-six  units.   I  went  to  school  Monday, 
Wednesday,  and  Friday,  classes  all  day  long  from  eight  to  six. 
Tuesdays  and  Thursdays  I  had  the  navy,  and  time  to  study.   So  I 
got  by  that  very  well,  considering  there  were  so  many  units. 


20 
Tvo  Medical  Schools'  Philosophies:  Creiehton  Univeriltv  and  UCSF 


Kay:      I  went  to  Creighton  University  School  of  Medicine  for  two  years 
In  Omaha.  At  the  end  of  two  years  there,  I  had  a  97 -point 
average.   Came  back  here  and  applied  to  Cal .   I  first  applied  to 
Cal ,  went  over  and  saw  the  dean,  "Sorry,  there's  no  room  In  the 
class . " 

LaBerge:   And  this  Is  UCSF  [University  of  California,  San  Francisco]? 

Kay:      UCSF. 

LaBerge:   Do  you  know  the  dean's  name? 

Kay:      No.   But  I  had  a  very  good  friend  over  here,  the  provost  of  the 
University  of  California  was-- 

LaBerge:   Oh,  you  told  me:   Monroe  Deutsch. 

Kay:      Monroe  Deutsch.   So  I  went  and  saw  Monroe,  and  I  told  him  the 

situation.   He  got  on  the  phone,  and  he  said,  "The  dean  wants  to 
see  you  tomorrow  morning  at  the  medical  school . "   Sol  went  over 
there,  and  he  accepted  me.   He  said,  "We'll  accept  you  with  basic 
grades  of  C,  but  not  your  grades  from  Creighton."   "Yes,  I'll 
accept  C."   "And  you  may  have  to  take  special  courses --to  come  up 
to  our  standards,  you'll  have  to  do  such-and-such  during  the 
summer,"  which  I  did.   I  spent  time  in  San  Francisco  doing  extra 
physical  diagnosis  and  a  lot  of  stuff  and  laboratory  work. 

This  is  just  a  sideline,  but  in  the  middle  of  all  this,  I 
got  a  phone  call  from  a  laboratory  man.   He  called  me  and  said, 
"I  want  you  to  come  up  here,  I'm  going  to  check  you,  an 
examination."   "Fine."  So  I  went  up,  and  he  had  put  out  twenty 
specimens  for  me  to  read,  and  give  him  the  answers.   I  went 
through  the  twenty.   Several  of  them—he  hadn't  seen  them  for 
maybe  four  or  five  months,  blood  studies  and  stuff  like  that. 

So  I  got  seven  out  of  the  twenty  right.   That  was  terrible. 
He  said,  "I  just  don't  know  what  I'm  going  to  do  about  that.   But 
I'll  tell  you,  one  of  my  students  from  your  class  who's  right 
over  there,  I'll  call  him  over  and  show  you  how  well  they're 
trained."   So  he  put  him  through,  and  he  got  five.   [laughter] 
So  he  said,  "Oh,  I  guess  it  doesn't  work  that  way."   So  he  passed 
me. 

During  that  six  months,  they  kept  pulling  me  in  for 
different  examinations.   At  the  end  of  six  months,  and  I  had  done 
fairly  well  in  the  classes,  average,  and  they  called  me  and  said, 


21 


"You  need  to  be  at  the  medical  school  tomorrow  morning,  we  want 
you  to  be  examined  by  some  doctor,"  just  after  finals. 

So  I  went  in  before  a  board  of  about  six  cardiologists, 
interns,  and  they  quizzed  me  for  about  two  hours  and  they  said, 
"Okay,  you  pass."  That  was  the  end  of  it.   Then  there  was --so 
really  for  six  months,  I  was  on  trial,  because  they  had  never 
taken  anybody  from  Creighton.   Creighton  was  a  class-A  school 
along  with  UCSF,  but  two  different  philosophies.   Creighton 
trained  you  for  going  out  into  Nebraska  to  practice,  or  into  any 
boondocks  to  practice,  in  general  practice.   At  Cal ,  they  trained 
you  to  be  specialists  and  research  people.   So  you  got  that 
difference  in  philosophy. 

LaBerge:   Which  did  you  like  better? 

Kay:      Well,  it's  hard  to  say.   Creighton  was  more  family-associated. 

You  knew  your  professors,  you  could  go  up  and  talk  to  them,  talk 
to  them.   At  Cal,  it  was  a  little  difficult.   They  were  too  busy. 

An  interesting  thing  was  after  we- -this  is  another  story 
just  to  show  you  an  example.   When  we  had  been  to  Europe,  I  guess 
that  first  year,  Edinburgh,  came  back,  and  on  our  way  back  we 
stopped  in  Omaha  and  I  went  down  to  Creighton.   The  office  girl 
said,  "Dr.  Kay,  so  glad  to  see  you."   They  welcomed  me  after  all 
these  years,  and  remembered  me  and  all  that.   I  went  to  Cal,  and 
they  didn't  know  who  the  hell  I  was.   I  was  just  a  student,  just 
a  doctor.   No  welcome.   That  was  so  different  that  after  just  a 
little  bit  of  Creighton  they  remembered  me. 

LaBerge:   It  was  probably  to  your  benefit  that  you  had  both  experiences. 

Kay:       I  think  so.   The  two  different  experiences,  very  different.   And 
I  get  letters  from  both  asking  for  money. 


Maloring  in  International  Relations 


LaBerge:   [laughs]   Well,  back  to  your  undergraduate  days:   did  you 

graduate  then  with  a  degree  in  international  relations,  or--? 

Kay:      I  got  an  A.B.  in  international  relations. 

LaBerge:   What  did  you  think  you'd  do  with  that,  if  that  was  the  route  you 
were  going  to  take? 


22 


Kay:      I  didn't  know.   I  would  either  go  on  or  find  something  to  do  with 
it.   But  I  had  some  basis  of  something  to  do.   At  that  time, 
international  relations  was  early,  it  was  a  new  school.   It  was 
new.   It  was  an  interesting  thing  to  study. 

LaBerge:   How  about  the  economics,  did  that  help  you  later  on  when  you  had 
to  set  up  practice  and--? 

Kay:      A  little  bit;  very  little.   You  had  to  have  econ  courses.   I  was 
taking  undergraduate  courses  and  graduate  courses,  and  all  kinds 
of  courses  at  the  same  time.   But  the  orientation  or  organization 
of  pre -medical  school  organized  my  mind  so  that  I  could  read  one 
book  and  think  about  three  courses  out  of  it. 

LaBerge:   So  it  was  good  training,  then? 

Kay:      Excellent.   In  fact,  I  have  to  say  that  for  pre-med. 

LaBerge:   I  know  that  your  mother  wanted  you  to  go  on  to  medicine,  but  you 
must  have  had  something  within  you  that  kept  you  going  at  it, 
some  interest. 

Kay:      In  medicine,  I  was  interested.   Of  course,  the  idea  of  enrolling 
at  Creighton  came  because  this  cousin  of  mine  was  back  there. 

LaBerge:  Was  he  a  professor,  is  that  right? 

Kay:  Yes,  ear,  nose,  and  throat. 

LaBerge:  What  was  his  name? 

Kay:  Kully. 

LaBerge:   But  to  put  in  all  that  time  and  effort,  you  must  have  had  some 
kind  of  drive  or-- 

Kay:      Well,  I  had  a  drive  to  go  on,  because  it  was  just  something  to 

do.   To  have  something  to  fall  back  on.   Of  course,  I  always  had 
the  store  to  fall  back  on,  but  I  didn't  like  it  too  well. 

LaBerge:   What  did  your  brother  do  at  Cal? 

Kay:      At  Cal,  he  was  the  managing  editor  of  the  Daily  Cal.   I  did  that- 
-freshman  year  I  went  on  the  Cal  staff,  managing  the  advertising 
department.   But  I  didn't  like  it.   He  had  been  the  manager- -not 
managing  editor,  the  manager  of  the  Daily  Cal.  their  business 
part.   So  that's  what  I  was  doing,  I  went  out  and  got  ads.   But  I 
didn't  like  that  too  well.   I  guess  I  did  that  my  freshman  year. 


23 


LaBerge:   It  seems  like  you  got  involved  in  a  lot  of  things  on  campus,  that 
you  were  in  the  midst  of  the  activities. 

Kay:      Yes.   And  Senior  Week,  of  course.   But  with  being  on  the  Rally 

Committee  and  Reception  Committee,  I  was  busy.   And  the  Blue  and 
Gold.  I  was  in  there,  at  '31. 

LaBerge:   I'm  going  to  go  back  to  the  office  and  look  it  up. 


The  Class  of  '31  Committee 


Kay: 

LaBerge 
Kay: 

LaBerge 
Kay: 

LaBerge 
Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 


Class  of  '31.   I'm  in  there,  I  think. 
You  obviously  kept  up  those  friendships. 

Very  much  so.   Kept  up  with  the  chairman  of  the  class  a  few 
years- - 

Mr.  Holabird? 

No,  he's  on  the  committee.   I  already  knew  him.   See,  when  it 
came  to  our  fiftieth  reunion  two  years  before,  he  called  me  and 
asked  me  if  I  would  work  on  it,  if  I  would  take  the  foundation, 
if  it  is  called  that,  gave  money  for  them.   What  do  you  call  it? 


Endowment? 

Not  endowment,  to  raise  money  for  the  class, 
out  there  with  the  foundation  office. 

Oh,  in  the  Berkeley  Foundation? 


And  so  I  got  active 


Yes.   I  think  her  name  was  Susan--.   God,  these  names  go  by. 
Anyway,  it  was  this  Susan  who  was  running  it,  she  and  I  decided 
on  the- -and  then  we  had  the  little  committee,  but  a  very  little 
committee.   And  then  we'd  meet,  and  that's  when  we  got  very 
active  and  decided  to  take  on  oral  histories.   Nobody  knew  what 
oral  history  was,  and  we  had  our  oral  history.   We  sold  the  idea 
of  our  oral  history  to  our  committee.   It  was  tough.   Most  of 
these  people  —  a  lot  of  these  people  dropped  out  of  college 
because  of  the  Depression.   When  they  got  out  of  college,  they 
were  getting  jobs.   They  all  made  a  success,  but  they  didn't  want 
to  do  a  lot  of  running  back  to  the  university.   We  had  an  awful 
time  getting  contributions.   We  got  donations  of  five  dollars, 
and  I  felt  sorry  that  we  couldn't  raise  more  than  we  did. 


24 


When  we  had  our  fiftieth  reunion,  only  about  350  came,  out 
of  1,400  available. 

LaBerge:   I  guess  that's  not  so  many,  out  of  1,400.   It  sounds  like  a  lot. 

Kay:      We  had  1,600  in  the  class;  1,400  were  still  alive  or  active.   We 
got  350,  from  all  over  the  country.   Then  we  decided-  -that  was 
sort  of  a  steering  committee,  was  Alan  Browne,  a  fellow  named 
Garwood  in  Berkeley,  Lois  Swabel,  Fran  Garron,  Jean  Armstrong, 
Catherine  McCloud.   There  were  about  eight  of  us,  or  ten  of  us. 
Adrian  [Kragen]  of  course.   And  we  got  together  and  decided  that 
we  should  have  the  reunion  at  fifty-  fifth  and  then  have  a  reunion 
every  year  of  people  around  here.   That's  the  way  we've  all  kept 
together. 


LaBerge:  You  were  talking  more  about  your  class  and  the  reunions. 

Kay:  That  we  had  each  year. 

LaBerge:  Every  year  now. 

Kay:  Yes. 

LaBerge:   Anything  we've  left  out  of  your  college  experience?   What  about 
your  fraternity  experience?  You  didn't  live  at  the  house,  but 
what  were  the  activities? 

Kay:      Well,  as  anybody  active  socially  in  a  fraternity. 
LaBerge:   Have  lots  of  parties,  and--? 

Kay:      Well,  you  used  to  have  parties.   And  you  have  the  annual  party, 
initiation  party.   I  made  some  friends  that  are  still  with  me. 
In  fact,  last  week  one  of  them  came  over  here  and  we  had  lunch 
together,  another  doctor.   I  kept  up  with  several,  but  not  too 
many.   A  lot  of  them  were  in  San  Francisco,  and  several  in  L.A. 
In  Berkeley,  one  of  my  friends;  another  fraternity  brother  went 
back  to  Oakridge  [Tennessee]  during  the  war,  and  is  still  back 
there.   Mayor  of  Oakridge;  stayed  on.   He  was  a  chemist.   That's 
about  all.   We  socialized  a  lot,  but  several-  -one  ,  two,  three, 
four,  five--I  can't  count--have  died  in  my  class  in  the 
fraternity.   Just  one  or  two  of  them  still  alive. 


25 


Influences  of  Mother  and  Religion 


LaBerge : 

Kay: 
LaBerge : 

Kay: 


LaBerge : 
Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 


LaBerge 
Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 


In  all  your  schooling  in  any  of  those  years,  not  just  teachers, 
but  were  there  any  particular  adults  that  influenced  you  in  any 
way  as  to  what  paths  to  take  in  life,  or  encouraged  you 

particularly? 

No,  not  at  the  university  or  anything  before. 

How  about  your  mother?  It  sounds  like  your  mother  was  involved 
somewhat . 

She  was  very  involved  all  through  everything,  yes.   She  was  very 
active  and  founded  the  California  Alliance  of  Jewish  Women.   Our 
basement  at  home  was  filled  with  clothes  for  kids  to  come  up 
there  and  get  clothes  during  the  Depression.   People  donated 
stuff,  and  we  had  clothing  in  the  basement,  a  whole  wardrobe. 
She  gave,  was  in  charge  of  giving  money  to  students  who  needed 
scholarships . 


To  college? 

To  college,  during  college  years, 
through  school  that  way. 


Quite  a  few  of  the  people  got 


Had  either  of  your  parents  been  to  college? 

Neither  one.   It  wasn't  the  thing  to  go  to  college  in  those  days. 
Then  when  I  went  to  college,  out  of  my  high  school  class  at 
Berkeley,  I  think  there  were  only  about  a  third  of  it  left,  less 
than  a  third  went  to  college.   In  high  school,  we  had  a  little 
club.   We  called  ourselves  the  Bachelors'  Club,  fourteen  of  us. 
We  kept  up  all  through  the  years.   There  were  fourteen  of  us. 
Three  of  us  went  to  college,  to  Berkeley.   So  that  was --we 're  now 
down  to  fourteen  at  the  last  meeting,  down  to  four  members- -three 
members . 

But  you've  kept  meeting  all  these  years? 

We  met  off  and  on,  yes.   Took  the  wives. 

What  kind  of  religious  background  did  you  have  growing  up? 

Jewish. 

Were  you  practicing? 

Yes.   My  mother  was  very  active  in  that. 


26 


LaBerge:   Did  you  go  to  the  temple  in  Berkeley? 

Kay:      There  wasn't  a  temple  in  Berkeley.   My  father  started  that  years 
later.   We  went  to  Oakland,  Temple  Sinai. 

LaBerge:   Okay,  where  you  go  now.   So  which  temple  did  your  father  start? 

Kay:  Two  of  them  in  Berkeley.  The  one  down  on  Bancroft,  Orthodox  one, 
and  then  there's  Beth-El,  which  is  on- -is  it  Cedar  Street? 

LaBerge:   I  think  it  is.   But  you  didn't  grow  up  in  an  Orthodox  family,  or 
did  you? 

Kay:      No.   Very  Reformed.   Very. 

LaBerge:   So  did  you  go  to  religious  school  to  learn  Hebrew? 

Kay:      I  went  to  religious  school,  not  to  learn  Hebrew,  because  they 

didn't  teach  us  that  in  those  days.   A  little  smattering  here  and 
a  little  smattering  there.   I  was  bar  mitzvah'd  and  confirmed. 
And  while  we  are  on  this,  in  1941,  I  started  the  Berkeley  Lodge 
of  B'nai  B'rith,  and  was  president  of  that.   And  of  course,  then 
the  war  came ,  and  that  was  the  end  of  that  for  me .   I  was  on  the 
board  of  the  temple  for  about  eight  years. 

LaBerge:   This  is  after  the  war? 

Kay:  Yes.  And  after  the  war,  I  was  on  the  Jewish  Federation  for  about 
eight  years.  Board  of  directors.  That  was  my  contact  with  that. 
Now,  you've  got  the  machine  on? 

LaBerge:   Yes. 


Yehudi  Menuhin 


Kay:      We  had  our  Sunday  school  in  Berkeley,  on  Center  Street,  upstairs. 
My  teacher  was  Mrs.  Menuhin,  if  you've  ever  heard  of  the 
Menuhins.   Yehudi  Menuhin? 

LaBerge:  Oh,  yes  I  have! 

Kay:  You've  heard  of  him? 

LaBerge:  Yes. 

Kay:  It  was  his  mother. 


27 


LaBerge:   You  are  kidding! 

Kay:      That's  another  part  of  my  life.   They  came  to  Berkeley  broke, 

mother  and  father  went  to  school,  and  they  had  this  baby,  Yehudi. 

My  folks  used  to  send  them  food,  clothing,  money.   They've  been 
friends  of  ours  ever  since. 

LaBerge:   Was  he  the  sane  age  as  you? 

Kay:      No,  I  was  older.   He's  the  same  age  as  my  sister.   We've  seen  him 
and  know  him  very  well.   In  fact,  my  folks  and  his  folks  were 
friends  for  years.   In  fact,  every  time  he  had  a  concert,  there 
were  two  tickets  for  my  mother  and  father. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  know,  as  he  was  growing  up,  that  he  was  gifted? 

Kay:      Oh,  yes.   When  I  was  thirteen,  he  played  the  violin  at  my  house. 
The  day  of  my  bar  mitzvah.   He  was,  what,  eight  I  think  then. 
Seven.   Yes,  we  watched  him  grow  up. 

LaBerge:   I  didn't  realize  that  he  grew  up  in  Berkeley. 

Kay:      He  was  in  Berkeley,  and  then  he  moved  to  San  Francisco,  and  they 
lived  in  San  Francisco.   I  guess  he  was  about  five  when  they 
moved  to  San  Francisco,  four.   But  I  had  to  put  that  little  in- - 

LaBerge:   That's  wonderful.   See,  those  are  the  kinds  of  things  that  will 
pop  up  into  your  mind  that  are  really  interesting  and  important. 

Kay:      Not  important,  but  just  interesting.   His  mother  is  still  alive; 
his  father  died.   I  haven't  talked  to  her  for  about  six  years. 
There  was  a  little  trouble  at  the  time.   We're  still  friends.   I 
guess  it  was,  I  don't  know,  three,  four,  five  years  ago,  we  went 
to  see  something  at  the- -not  the  Opera  House,  the  other  one, 
across  the  street- - 

LaBerge:   Davies? 

Kay:      No,  the  other  one.   The  Opera  House,  I  guess.   Yes,  at  the  Opera 
House.   My  wife  and  I  were  standing  in  the  lobby  there  for  some 
reason.   Yehudi  and  his  wife  came  in,  to  hear  the  same  concert. 
Nobody  knew  who  he  was,  but  we  were  standing  talking  to  him  so  we 
had  a  very  nice  conversation.   An  interesting  sidelight. 

LaBerge:   Did  his  mother  prepare  you  for  your  bar  mitzvah? 

Kay:      No,  they  had  gone  before  that.   I  was  just  a  young  boy. 


28 


LaBerge:   Any  other  little  treasures  like  that  from  your  childhood  that  you 
can  remember,  other--? 

Kay:      I'll  think  of  them. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  read  a  lot  as  a  child,  or  in  your  family  did  people  read? 

Kay:      Some,  but  not  too  much.   My  mother  read  a  lot,  I  know.   She  was 

anxious  to  keep  up  with  everything.   She  was  quite  a  person.   She 
used  to  get  money  from- -go  over  to  San  Francisco  and  get  money 
from  people  like  the  Haas's,  Fleishhackers ,  and  others- -for 
students,  to  give  them  loans. 


Deciding  on  Urology 


LaBerge:   Once  you  finished  with  medical  school,  had  you  decided  that  you 
were  going  to  specialize  in  something? 

Kay:      Yes.   I  went  on  to  residency  after  I  finished  my  internship.   I 
had  made  up  my  mind  either  to  go  in  with  my  cousin  in  ear,  nose, 
and  throat,  or  just  into  urology  as  Dr.  [Albert]  Meads,  who  was 
my  mentor  in  my  residency  at  Highland.   I  finally  decided  to  go 
into  urology.   At  the  finish  of  my  residency,  he  made  an  offer 
for  me  to  come  into  the  office  with  him.   I  was  there  for  three 
years  with  him. 


University  of  Edinburgh.  1938-1939 


Kay:      Then  we  decided  I  needed  some  more  work,  and  that's  why  I  went  in 
1938  to  the  University  of  Edinburgh  for  a  year  in  anatomy. 

LaBerge:   I  think  you  told  me  before,  they  were  famous  for  anatomy,  is  that 
right? 

Kay:      For  anatomy,  yes.   The  professor  of  anatomy  at  Cal  was  Saunders, 
who  graduated  from  Edinburgh.   And  then  came  back  here.   Well,  in 
Edinburgh,  we  had  an  interesting  thing.   The  Munich  thing  took 
place,  and  we'd  been  there  ten  days.   The  word  went  out  that  all 
Americans  [should]  come  home.   So  I  went  down  to  the  consulate 
and  I  said,  "What  should  we  do?"  "I'll  tell  you  about  it.   You 
stay  here,  and  I'll  go  home." 


29 


So  then  we  decided  to  call  the  steamship  company  where  we 
had  our  tickets,  and  we  said- -we  couldn't  get  on  the  steamship 
until  October  This  was  September. 

LaBerge:   September  of  '38,  is  that  right? 

Kay:      Thirty-eight.   And  they  informed  us  that  if  I  took  a  reservation 
and  didn't  go,  I  lost  my  ticket.   However,  I  was  in  the  naval 
reserve  now,  in  the  medical  corps.   I  knew  where  the --we  had  a 
squadron  of  destroyers  in  London.   I  was  eligible,  so  I  didn't 
worry  about  it. 

LaBerge:   And  could  your  wife  come  too? 

Kay:      Yes.   And  those  three  days  when  Munich  [conference]  took  place, 
everybody  went  to  work- -my  wife  went  to  work  putting  the  gas 
masks  together.   We  dug  underground  shelters  in  all  the  parks;  it 
was  quite  hectic. 

LaBerge:   And  this  was  in  Edinburgh,  or  in  London? 

Kay:       In  Edinburgh.   They  had  gun  emplacements.   This  is  a  sideline: 

they  had  no  parks  protecting  their  navy  up  there,  they  had  like  a 
barrel  from  a  gun  at  one  place,  and  they  had  the  firing  part  of 
it  in  another  place.   If  the  Germans  had  known--!  don't  know  why 
they  didn't  know- -but  they  would  have  gone  right  in  and  taken 
that  without  any  trouble.   But  they  prepared  it  anyway.   And 
Firth  of  Forth- -that ' s  the  famous  naval  station  up  there.   That's 
in  Edinburgh. 

So  we  stayed  on,  fortunately.   And  everything  was  fine. 
LaBerge:   So  you  stayed  until  June  of  '39,  or  something  like  that? 

Kay:      Yes.   In  April  of  '39,  I  went  to  London  for  a  week,  and  then  we 
went  to  Paris.   Paris  had  no  lights.   They  had  all  these  little 
blue  lights  in  case  of  war.   We  arrived  on  a  Friday,  and  the 
sirens  were  going  off  during  the  day  that  they  all  prepared  for 
raids.   The  lights  of  Paris  were  down.   It  was  interesting  to  see 
Paris. 

LaBerge:   Then  did  you  travel  more  before  you  went  home? 

Kay:      Just  to  Paris,  and  then  back  to  London,  and  then  back  to 

Edinburgh.   London  was  interesting;  we  stayed  at  the  hotel.   Cost 
us  five  dollars  a  day,  and  included  breakfast  for  both  of  us. 
Can  you  believe  that? 

LaBerge:   No. 


30 


Kay:  The  Cumberland  Hotel  was  the  hotel  in  London  at  that  time  that 
had  central  heating,  and  that's  why  we  stayed  there.  Right  at 
the  Marble  Arch.  It's  still  there. 

LaBerge:   What  did  your  wife  do  while  you  were  at  the  university? 

Kay:      We  had  some  cousins  there,  and  she  was  with  them.   1  don't  know 
what  she  did,  actually.   We  had  a  bed- sitting  room,  which  was  in 
one  room,  so- -rented  an  old  house  right  next  to  a  beautiful 
garden. 

LaBerge:  And  this  was  sort  of  like  your  honeymoon,  is  that  right,  too? 
Kay:  Yes,  we  had  been  married  in  January,  and  left  here  in  August. 
LaBerge:  Did  you  take  the  steamship  back,  or  did  you  take-- 

Kay:      Yes,  we  took  the  steamship  back.   And  that  was  quite  a  ride. 

They  were  bringing  horses  to  the  World's  Fair  on  a  freighter,  so 
only  half  of  the  ship  was  full.   So  it  would  rock.   It  took  ten 
days  to  cross. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  enjoy  that  trip  both  ways? 

Kay:      Enjoyed  it  going  over;  we  were  on  the  steamship.   Enjoyed  it 

coming  back;  there  were  125  passengers,  but  only  about  twenty- 
five  of  us  went  to  meals. 

LaBerge:  I  see.  [laughs]  Was  there  an  odor? 
Kay:  No,  it  was  just  so  rough.  My  wife-- 
LaBerge:  Oh,  I  see  what  you  mean. 

Kay:      My  wife  said,  "Isn't  there  any  way- -isn't  there  a  subway  or  a 
train  we  could  take  home?"   She  was  sick  the  first  five  days. 

LaBerge:   How  about  if  we  end  there,  and  then  the  next  time  we'll  start  up 
with  your-- 

Kay:      Medical  thing. 

LaBerge:   Yes.   Well,  we  could  start  actually  maybe  with  World  War  II,  with 
what  you  did  during  World  War  II. 

Kay:      Well,  we  could.   Yes,  I  guess  we  could. 
LaBerge:   Okay.   How  does  that  sound? 


31 


Kay: 


That  sounds  fair. 


The  Berkeley  Fire.  1923 


[Interview  2:   January  27,  1994 ]## 

LaBerge:   Our  last  time,  we  had  finished  with  you  being  in  Edinburgh,  and 
we  were  going  to  start  with  World  War  II.   But  before  that,  I 
just  wanted  to  ask  you  if  you  remember  the  Berkeley  Fire. 

Kay:      Very  well . 

LaBerge:   Could  you  talk  about  that  a  little? 

Kay:      Yes,  I ' d  be  very  happy  to  talk  about  that.   I  was  going  to 

Garfield  Junior  High  School,  and  about  twelve  o'clock,  people 
said,  "Look  at  the  fire  coming  over  the  hill."  The  Berkeley  Fire 
had  started  two  days  before,  in  Orinda.   It  burnt  itself --they 
knew  about  it.   But  at  that  time,  there  was  a  rule  that  nobody 
goes  outside  of  their  territory.   So  the  fire  came  to  the  top  of 
the  hill,  and  when  it  got  up  there,  they  let  everybody  go  home. 

The  fire  started  at  twelve,  started  burning  down  into 
Berkeley.   It  started  down  towards  our  house.   We  were  living  at 
Eunice  and  Glen  in  Berkeley.   My  parents  were  out  of  town.   My 
brother  was  at  UC .   I  went  home  about  one  o'clock.   We  took  out 
everything,  took  out  what  we  thought  was  important- -silverware , 
and  some  clothes.   The  fire  came  to  Cordonices  Park,  which  was 
just  a  block  away  from  where  we  lived. 

LaBerge:   Did  they  send  you  home  from  school? 

Kay:      Yes.   The  wind  changed,  and  so  it  missed  us.   It  went  on  down  the 
hill,  as  you  know,  to  the  university.   We  had  a  market  in 
Berkeley,  and  they  were  getting  ready  to  dynamite  that,  as  they 
had  other  buildings  earlier.   The  fires  changed  so  often.   Where 
the  university  now  has  a  plant  area,  a  whole  big  square  block,  I 
can't  think  of-- 


LaBerge:   On  Oxford? 

Kay:      On  Oxford.   They  had  just  opened  a  new  church  there,  and  several 
homes.   They  blew  that  whole  block  up  as  a  barrier,  but  the  fire 
went  over  the  top  of  it.   It  spread  to  right  in  back  of  our 
market  on  University  and  Shattuck,  stopped  right  there.   We  had 
moved  everything,  moved  the  books  out  of  the  store,  of  course, 
closed  the  market,  and  moved  all  the  food  down  to  City  Hall  so 
they  could  have  it  for  feeding  people,  because  we  couldn't  use 
it. 


32 


About  three  o'clock,  the  wind  stopped.   When  the  wind 
stopped,  the  fire  stopped.   And  as  you  most  likely  know,  a  lot  of 
people  took  their  furniture  out,  particularly  fraternity  houses, 
and  put  it  all  on  the  University  of  California  field,  which  was 
an  open  field.   The  furniture  burnt,  but  the  houses  didn't. 

LaBerge:   Oh,  my  goodness.   No,  I  didn't  know  that. 

Kay:      And  it  swept  through  there  in  two  and  a  half  hours.   Almost  as 
bad  as --seemed  worse  than  the  fire  of  '91.   That's  the  story  of 
the  Berkeley  Fire. 

LaBerge:   Wow.   Now,  when  you're  talking  about  "we  took  the  things  out  of 
our  house" -- 

Kay:      My  brother. 

LaBerge:   Just  your  brother  and  you? 

Kay:      Yes.   My  folks  were  in  Omaha. 

LaBerge:   How  did  you  get  in  contact  with  him  when  you  were  at  school,  or 
did  he  come  get  you? 

Kay:      He  came  home,  and  I  went  home.   We  met  at  home.   It  was  quite  a 

hectic  time.   Then  the  National  Guard  came  in,  and  they  set  up  an 
encampment  across  the  street  from  our  house.   You  couldn't  go  in 
and  out  of  the  area  without  a  special  pass.   That  went  on  for 
several  weeks. 

I  called  my  folks  in  Omaha  to  tell  them  what  had  happened, 
and  we  went  right  through,  no  problem  at  all.   But  after  that,  we 
couldn't  talk  to  them.   The  lines  were  down.   We  were  just  lucky. 

The  other  interesting  part- -this  may  or  may  not- -my  father 
arrived  in  Omaha  that  night,  got  off  the  train,  and  there  was 
this  big  headline:   "Berkeley  Burnt  Out."  He  was  a  little 
concerned. 

LaBerge:   I  bet  he  was!   And  are  you  and  your  brother  the  ones  who  also 
took  the  groceries  down  to  City  Hall,  or  did  you  have  help? 

Kay:      We  had  help  with  the  market.   Because  we  saw  it  was  going  to 

burn,  so  we  sent- -took  all  the  meat  out.  We  didn't  care  about 
the  vegetables.  Sent  it  to  City  Hall  to  be  used  for  refugees, 
and  there  were  plenty. 

LaBerge:   That's  a  far  cry  from  what  you're  hearing  about  people  in  the 

earthquake  right  now,  people  are  sell- -I  don't  think  they  are  any 


33 


more,  but  last  week  they  were  selling  water  for  like  six  dollars 
a  gallon,  and  things  like  that. 

Kay:      Yes.   It  was  nothing  like  that. 
LaBerge:   No. 

Kay:      We  had  some  people  whose  house  had  been  blown  up  come  and  live 

with  us  while  my  folks  were  East.   I  guess  they  lived  with  us  for 
three  or  four  weeks,  because  they  had  no  place  to  go,  and  we  had 
the  house.   It's  almost  as  bad  as  the  fire  in  1991  a  block  here, 
and  a  block  there. 

LaBerge:   Were  you  evacuated  in  the  other  fire,  in  the  1991? 
Kay:      Yes,  the  last  night. 
LaBerge:   So  where  did  you  go? 

Kay:      My  sister-in-law's,  over  on  Trestle  Glen.   They  evacuated  us  at 
seven  o'clock  that  night.   This  side  of  the  street,  and  not  the 
other  side  of  the  street.   I  don't  know  why.   That's  the  fire. 
Now,  do  you  want  to  know  anything  more  about  the  Fire  of 
Berkeley,  1923? 

LaBerge:   Not  unless  you  have  other  things  to  say.   I  had  a  little  book  on 
it.   I  had  totally  forgotten  to  ask  you  about  it,  and  when  I  went 
back  to  the  office,  someone  said,  "Well,  if  he  lived  in  Berkeley, 
he  must  have  lived  through  the  fire."  And  I  thought  that  you 
still  lived  down  below  McGee . 

Kay:      No,  we  had  moved. 

LaBerge:   Is  that  house  still  standing? 

Kay:      Yes.   Eunice  and  Glen,  Berkeley,  is  still  there.   In  fact,  I'm 

trying  to  think  who  it  is- -somebody ' s  son  bought  it,  a  friend  of 
ours,  and  I'm  trying  to  think  of  the  name  of  it.   And  then  we  had 
a  big  move;  we  went  from  there  to  Rose  and  Arch,  which  is  about 
three  blocks  away.   That's  where  I  was  when  I  went  to  college,  we 
were  living  there.   And  I  guess  that's  all  about  the  Berkeley 
Fire. 

Oh,  incidentally,  at  that  time,  we  forgot  when  the  fire  came 
over  the  hill.   See,  then  they  couldn't  go  outside  the  Berkeley 
limits  with  the  fire  engines.   They  brought  over  a  ferry  load  of 
fire  engines  from  San  Francisco  to  help,  came  over  on  the  ferry 
boat.   And  then  is  when  they  decided  that  they  were  going  to  have 
joint  fire  help,  and  they  built  Grizzly  Peak  Lookout  following 


that  Berkeley  Fire  of  1923.   It  started  two  days  before  in 
Orinda. 

LaBerge:   I  didn't  realize  that.   And  had  it  been  put  out  there? 
Kay:      No,  it  was  still  burning. 
LaBerge:   Just  kept  burning. 

Kay:      Never  realized  that  it  would  be --and  suddenly,  the  wind  came  up, 
and  bang.   Just  like  the  fire  of  '91. 

LaBerge:  How  long  did  your  parents  keep  the  market? 

Kay:  From  1912  to  1963.   I  think  so. 

LaBerge:  What  was  the  name  of  it? 

Kay:  Lincoln  Market. 


35 


II   WORLD  WAR  II 


Mare  Island  and  San  Francisco  Naval  Duty.  1941-1942 


LaBerge:  Okay,  well,  let's  go  into  World  War  II. 

Kay:  We  came  back  from  Edinburgh,  and  I  set  up  my  own  practice  here. 

LaBerge:  Where  was  your  office? 

Kay:  At  that  time,  it  was  downtown  [Oakland]  on  Franklin  Street. 

LaBerge:  You  were  with  an  older  doctor? 

Kay:      Originally,  but  when  I  came  back,  I  came  by  myself.   Dr.  Meads 

helped  me,  but  I  was  on  my  own.   My  wife  became  pregnant  with  our 
oldest  son.   We  rented  a  house  in  north  Berkeley.   We  were  living 
in  an  apartment  at  the  time.   We  rented  a  house  in  north 
Berkeley,  moved  in  on  December  1,  1941.   The  war  was  declared  on 
December  7,  1941,  and  on  December  8,  I  received  orders  to  report 
to  Mare  Island  on  the  thirteenth. 

So  that  week,  I  closed  up  my  office.   We  had  paid  first  and 
last  month's  rent  at  the  house,  so  we  stayed  there  until  the  end 
of  January,  and  then  we  had  an  apartment  in  Oakland.   I  guess 
that's  the  story  of  the  beginning  of  it. 

LaBerge:   Where  were  you  on  December  7? 

Kay:      There  was  a  board  meeting  of  the  Berkeley  B'nai  B'rith.   I  got  a 
phone  call  at  eleven- thirty  to  turn  on  the  radio  there,  and  we 
heard  it.   So  that  was  the  end  of  the  board  meeting;  came  home. 
We  didn't  know  what  to  do  at  the  time.   It  wasn't  very  long 
before  we  knew  what  to  do,  with  the  blackouts.   All  the  things, 
closing  the  office. 

And  then  I  commuted  from  here  to  Vallejo,  to  Mare  Island, 
every  day  with  a  group  of  doctors.   I'm  trying  to  think  of  where 


36 


we  met.   We  were  about  five  of  us,  drove  up  to  Mare  Island  every 
morning,  to  be  there  at  eight  o'clock. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  get  these  orders  because  you  were  still  in  the  naval 
reserve? 

Kay:      Naval  reserve,  and  we  had  units.   I  was  in  a  naval  unit  here  in 
Oakland,  reserve  unit.   The  whole  unit  was  called  to  Mare  Island. 
After  three  months  up  there,  my  unit  was  sent  down  for  training 
to  go  overseas,  but  I  was  left  there,  fortunately.   I  stayed  at 
Mare  Island  then.   I  was  transferred  to  San  Francisco  in  a  naval 
recruiting  station,  because  my  wife  was  pregnant.   With  a  little 
inside  help,  I  got  these  orders  to  go  to  San  Francisco.   I  stayed 
there  until  December  '42,  and  then  I  got  orders  to  go  to  Pago 
Pago,  American  Samoa. 

LaBerge:   Before  you  go  into  that,  your  son  was  born  then-- 

Kay :      My  son  was  born  in  April  of  '42. 

LaBerge:   For  the  record,  do  you  want  to  give  me  his  name? 

Kay:      Steven.   And  we  gave  neither  son  middle  names,  letting  them  pick 
their  own,  and  neither  one  has  ever  picked  any.   And  what  else  do 
you  want  to  know? 

LaBerge:   Okay,  so  he  was  born  in  April  of  '42,  and  you  were  still 
commuting  to  San  Francisco. 

Kay:      Yes. 

LaBerge:   All  right,  now  you're  going  to  Samoa.   Before  you  got  to  Samoa, 
what  were  you  doing,  just  general  medical  practice? 

Kay:      No,  none  at  all.   I  was  doing  recruiting;  I  was  examining  the 
recruits  for  the  navy. 

LaBerge:   So  it  was  like  a  general  physical? 

Kay:      Yes,  general  physical,  and  also  we  had  tests  to  see  if  they  could 
become  pharmacists'  mates,  things  like  that.   People  applied  for 
pharmacists'  mates,  and  we  examined  them  and  decided.   We  had 
quite  an  experience  there.   It  was  interesting. 

LaBerge:   Any  episodes  you  want  to  relate? 

Kay:      Well,  I  guess  the  episode- -I'm  trying  to  think  of  the  name  of  the 
fellow.   A  famous  movie  star,  singer,  caused  a  lot  of  confusion 
because  they  had  given  him  an  appointment  way  above  everybody 


37 


else,  and  I  had  the  pleasure  of  flunking  him  for  his  physical. 
All  hell  broke  loose,  because  he  was  going  to  get  this 
appointment  regardless.   I'm  trying  to  think  of  his  name --Tony 
Martin. 

LaBerge:   Oh,  you're  kidding.   Why  did  you  have  to  flunk  him? 

Kay:      He  had  some  physical  thing,  I  forgot  what  it  was  now.   But  he 
didn't  pass  our  regulations.   And  particularly  not  for  an 
officer.   But  I  was  overruled  by  politics.   I  say  it  was  my  first 
exposure  to  politics. 


Health  Officer  in  Pago  Pago.  American  Samoa.  1942-1944 

Kay:       I  was  in  American  Samoa  for  a  year  and  a  half.   It  seemed  like 

eighteen  years  instead  of  eighteen  months.   American  Samoa  was  a 
very  important  spot  during  the  first  part  of  the  war,  because  it 
was  our  only  station  between  Hawaii  and  Australia.   We'd  have  all 
kinds  of  ships  coming  in,  parking  there  overnight,  because  there 
were  submarines  outside.   We  had  submarine  nets,  we  had  air 
balloon  coverage. 

American  Samoa  in  January  of  '42  was  shelled  by  the 
Japanese,  and  they  shelled  it  twice,  two  different  occasions, 
when  at  that  time  we  had  no  military  protection  at  all.   There 
were  machine  guns  and  that  was  all.   They  did  the  same  thing, 
they  dropped  the  bombs  in  the  middle  of  the  bay,  and  if  they  had 
turned  their  guns  maybe  5  degrees,  they  would  have  destroyed  the 
base.   They  didn't,  fortunately.   American  Samoa  became  the  main 
interchange  between  here  and  the  south.   We  had  one  night  as  high 
as  147  ships  in  the  harbor. 


General  Practice 


Kay:      The  experience  there  was  remarkable.   I  did  everything.   I  did 
general  surgery.   I  went  in  the  navy  as  a  lieutenant  junior 
grade.   I  was  in  the  navy  a  week  when  I  became  a  lieutenant 
senior  grade.   And  in  January  of  '42,  they  made  a  rule  that 
changed  the  date  of  rank  for  everybody,  and  I  was  caught  in  it. 
So  I  stayed  a  lieutenant  senior  grade  for  eighteen,  nineteen 
months.   Everybody  else  was  getting  promoted,  but  I  was  never 
promoted  because  I  missed,  by  this  change  of  date  of  rank.   But 
then  finally,  that's  another  story. 


38 


So  I  was  there,  and  I  was  in  charge  of  the  clinic  there.   We 
had  a  clinic  and  hospital  for  the  enlisted  personnel.   We  also 
had  a  hospital  for  Sanoans ,  we  treated  them  both. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  have  people  who  had  been  injured,  or  was  it-- 

Kay:      Just  regular  medicine,  we  had  enlisted  personnel  of  3,500  people. 
And  then  about  five  miles  away,  the  navy  came  in  and  put  up  what 
they  called  a  Mobile  3  Hospital,  which  took  care  of  all  the 
injuries  that  came  through  that  way.   That  was  the  story  of 
American  Samoa. 

The  first  twelve  months,  we  were  very  busy,  because  the  war 
was  going  on,  and  then  Tarawa  took  place.   We  were  a  staging  area 
for  Tarawa;  they  did  training  there.   They  used  to  bring  in  every 
six  weeks  marines- - [telephone  interruption] - -they  were  training 
marines  for  jungle  fighting  down  there.   They  used  to  bring  in 
about  6,000  marines  every  three  weeks,  and  then  ship  them  out. 
And  then  they  came  and  changed  everything  to  have  it  for  Tarawa, 
for  experience. 


Tropical  Diseases  and  American  Diseases 

Kay:      After  Tarawa,  it  was  like  shutting  off  water,  because  we  got  a 
ship  a  day,  and  nothing  else  was  happening.   At  that  time,  we 
decided- -it  was  called  filariasis,  which  was  a  disease  of  the 
natives- -you  know,  our  word  for  it  was  mu-mu.   The  mu-mu  was  the 
native  word  for  it.   They  had  this  elephantiasis,  that's  what  I'm 
thinking  of,  it  caused  elephantiasis.   So  we  had  nothing  to  do, 
so  we  started  studying  it.   There  were  14,000  natives  there,  I 
guess  we  examined  13,000,  and  did  a  lot  of  studies  on  it.   They 
were  all  sent  to  Washington,  and  of  course,  nobody  got  credit  for 
it,  except  the  navy. 

During  the  time  we  were  there,  the  natives- -the  mosquitoes 
bit  at  night,  sundown,  sunset.   A  lot  of  the  personnel  would  go 
out  into  what  we  called  the  bush,  and  got  these  bumps,  had 
lymphatic  involvement  from  the  thing.   People  in  Washington 
decided  that  anybody  that  had  that  had  to  go  home.   We,  of 
course,  down  there  just  felt  there  were  some  rules  to  be 
involved,  but  we  hadn't  followed  Washington  rules.   We  never 
found  any  military  personnel  having  elephantiasis.   We  found  that 
if  you've  been  exposed  to  mosquitoes  at  least  forty-five  years, 
then  you  might  get  elephantiasis,  but  they  had  the  filariasis, 
very  common  amongst  them. 


In  the  navy,  American  Samoa,  1942.   Harold  Kay  is  pictured 
second  from  left. 


39 


LaBerge:   Did  you  find  a  cure  for  the  filariasis? 

Kay:      Staying  away  from  the  mosquitoes.   And  while  I  was  down  there, 

the  penicillin  became  available,  and  it  was  a  godsend  down  there 
to  have  it.   I  think  that  was  one  of  the  best  things  that  ever 
happened  to  us  down  there.   It  took  care  of  a  lot  of  the  diseases 
and  things.   There  was  another  disease  called  yaws  amongst  the 
natives;  we  never  got  it.   We  started  treating  them  with 
penicillin  and  clearing  them  right  up.   It  was  caused  by  a 
spirochete  similar  to  syphilis.   As  a  result  of  that,  there  was 
no  syphilis  in  the  natives  in  Samoa,  because  they  all  had  yaws, 
they  had  the  other  spirochete.   And  when  we  cleared  it  up  with 
penicillin,  it  was  fine. 

The  other  interesting  thing,  I  was  the- -what  do  you  call  it- 
-not  immigration,  but  checking  the  ships  coming  in  and  out,  for 
the  health,  the  quarantine  officer.   Because  before  I  got  there, 
a  ship  came  from  Hawaii,  which  was  a  ten-day  trip,  and  they 
arrived  there  and  they  got  chicken  pox  down  there.   Killed  off 
about  seventy-five  natives,  and  of  course,  we  got  all  excited. 


Quarantine  Officer 


LaBerge:   Was  it  Americans  who  brought  the  chicken  pox  in? 

Kay:      Yes.   And  Americans  brought  in  gonorrhea,  but  fortunately  by  the 
time  they  got  there,  we  were  able  to  treat  that.   The  other 
interesting  thing,  I  thought,  was  that  I  could  go  on  all  the 
ships--!  used  to  go  out  in  a  little  boat,  the  pilot  boat,  and 
meet  them  outside  and  get  two  things.   First  of  all,  get  the 
clearance;  second  of  all,  make  deals  for  fresh  vegetables  on  the 
ship.   We  didn't  have  any.   But  only  one  country  would  not  let  us 
board  their  ship,  and  that  was  Russia.   So  I  had—I'm  trying  to 
think  what  the  name  of  it  was.   Anyway,  I  had  the  right  to  put 
everybody  in  quarantine  unless  I  okayed  it,  so  I ,  of  course,  put 
the  Russian  ship  in  quarantine.   They  only  stayed  there--!  guess 
we  had  about  five  Russian  ships  in  and  out  in  eighteen  months. 
And  they  weren't  very  good.   The  British  were  very  good. 

Then  most  of  the  war  ships  that  had  been  damaged  in  the 
South  Pacific  came  to  Samoa  and  stayed  overnight,  then  went  on  to 
Hawaii.   We  saw  an  awful  lot  of  damaged  ships.   One  ship,  I'm 
trying  to  think  of  the  name,  had  some  thirty- five  dead  sailors  on 
board  that  they  couldn't  get  to.   They  were  going  back  to  Hawaii. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  have  the  USO  or  some  kind  of  entertainment  ever,  or--? 


Kay:      We  did  occasionally,  when  they  came  to  entertain  at  the  Mobile 

Hospital,  which  was  several  miles  away.  Mrs.  [Eleanor]  Roosevelt 
came  and  visited,  and  she  wanted  to  go  into  a  certain  ward.  They 
wouldn't  let  her  go,  because  that  was  where  they  had  the 
gonorrhea.  She  was  determined  to  find  out  why  she  couldn't  go  in 
there.  But  she  was  the  only  visitor  from  the  States.  They  had  a 
couple  of  USD  shows  out  there . 

We  had  the  Red  Cross.   The  Red  Cross  became  a  problem  to  us. 
We  had  a  man  down  there,  and  the  Red  Cross  provided  him  with  a 
car,  and  everything  he  needed- -food,  candy.   He  kept  the  candy  to 
give  to  the  natives,  because  he  became  involved  with  some 
natives,  which  was  quite  a  problem  there.   See,  we  had  3,600  men; 
we  had  about  fifteen  officers  at  the  naval  station;  we  had  five 
navy  nurses.   I  was  involved  in  protecting  the  navy  nurses,  so 
they  could  not  go  out  after  nine  o'clock  at  night  until  six 
o'clock  in  the  morning.   I  didn't  use  marines  as  guarding  them, 
but  I  used  what  we  called  fita-fita  guards,  which  was  a  navy-- 
mostly  Samoans.   They  had,  as  far  as  I  was  concerned,  they  had 
the  mentality  of  about  a  twelve-year-old.   You  tell  them  to  do 
something,  and  they  would  follow  through.   So  I  put  guards  around 
the  navy  nurses'  quarters,  and  informed  nobody  goes  in,  nobody 
goes  out.   And  nobody  went  in,  nobody  went  out,  without 
permission.   See,  what  else  was  there? 

LaBerge :   So  only  the  navy  nurses  had  a  curfew? 

Kay:      Yes. 

LaBerge:   And  the  guys  didn't? 

Kay:      Only  the  navy  nurses,  because  as  you  can  imagine,  five  white 

nurses  with  3,600  at  the  station- -there  were  about  36,000  marines 
on  the  island- -there  was  a  commandant,  special  commandant,  for 
the  marines.   The  navy  who  controlled  American  Samoa --the 
governor  was  the  navy  captain,  the  attorney  general  was  a  navy 
man,  the  health  officer  was  a  navy  man,  who  was  me- -every 
official  in  the  Samoan  government  was  navy,  navy-controlled.   We 
all  had  two  positions. 


Samoan  Economy 


LaBerge:   How  do  you  think  our  presence  there  either  changed  or  influenced 
American  Samoa  for-- 


41 


Kay:      It  changed  completely;  it  helped  them  out.   Today,  It's  very-- 

they're  on  their  own.   I  went  back  a  few  years  ago  for  the  first 
time,  and  I  couldn't  believe  the  changes,  because  everything  that 
I  had  seen  before  was  gone.   They  have  two  big  sardine  factories 
there,  which  weren't  there  before. 

Incidentally,  during  the  war,  there  was  this  Catholic  school 
for  the  natives  out  in  one  of  the  towns  there. 

LaBerge:   So  before  that,  what  was  the  economy  based  on? 
Kay:      Very  bad.   They-- 

t* 
LaBerge:   You  were  saying  the  economy  was  based  on  the  naval  station. 

Kay:      Naval  station,  and  a  root  called  taro  and  some  oils  that  they  got 
from  taro.   But  the  highest -paid  people  were  the  navy  people. 
They  were  paid  at  about  a  seaman  first  class,  which  was  about  $50 
a  month. 

LaBerge:   Were  these  Samoans? 

Kay:      Samoans,  all  Samoans.   They  had  beautiful  outfits,  and  when  the 
cruise  ships  used  to  come  in  before  the  war,  these  people  put  on 
dances  and  uniforms  and  all  this.   Of  course,  during  the  war, 
there  were  no  cruise  ships.   They  were  the  guards  we  used.   We 
didn't  trust  the  marines. 

LaBerge:   Why  didn't  you  trust  the  marines? 
Kay:      They  sometimes  didn't  follow  orders. 


Living  Quarters  and  Climate 


Kay:      We  were  down  there  in  the  heat  and  so  forth- -you  see,  it  rained- - 
we  had  200  inches  of  rain  a  year.   The  humidity  was  85  and  the 
temperature  was  85.   My  first  experience,  I  was  there  one  day, 
and  brought  a  raincoat  and  put  it  on.   It  was  raining  for  half  an 
hour,  and  so  about  the  first  shower  there,  I  was  wetter  inside 
than  outside.   So  I  no  longer  wore--.   We  used  to  let  the  rain 
rain,  and  dry  out  right  away. 

Used  to  go  to  mess,  we'd  have  to  take  off  our  shoes,  our 
boots  and  our  socks  and  roll  up  our  pants,  because  there 'd  be  two 


42 


LaBerge 
Kay: 


LaBerge 
Kay: 


feet  of  water.   It's  unbelievable,  but  we  survived  it.   We  lived 
five  officers  to  a  house,  right  on  the  water.   We  had  a  native 
who  came  and  did  all  of  our  laundry,  kept  up  the  house.   She-- 
there  were  three  doctors,  a  dentist,  and  a  chaplain.   So  she  used 
to  ask  us  medical  questions,  and  we  found  out  that  she  was 
treating  the  natives  out  in  the  bush.   She'd  ask  us  questions. 

I  don't  know  whether  this  is  interesting,  but  we  had  nothing 
to  do,  but  we  had  a  rule  that  whoever  took  a  shower  every  night, 
whoever  got  through  first  had  to  fix  the  drinks.   We  had  a 
Baptist  minister,  and  we  always  saw  that  he  was  the  first  one  to 
get  the  drinks.   Two  drinks  at  home  before  dinner  was  the  limit, 
so  if  we  had  over  two  drinks,  we  didn't  go  to  dinner.   We'd  stay 
home  and  drink  some  more,  [laughter] 

While  down  in  Samoa,  the  word  came  out  that  all  doctors  were 
to  remove  all  signs  of  being  a  doctor.   All  officers  would  take 
off  their  ranks.   Doctors  were  to  be  trained  how  to  use  small 
arms,  so  the  Japanese  wouldn't  know  what  they  were  doing.   So  we 
used  to  go  out  and  practice  shooting.   We  all  had  to  have  at  our 
bedside  at  all  times  our  sidearm  and  canteen  of  water.   We  had 
two  of  them;  I  had  one  filled  with  whiskey.   Because  we  had 
"connections."  [laughter] 

I  bet  you  became  very  close. 

Very  close,  very  close.   The  only  ones  I  know  that's  living 
still,  one  that's  a  pediatrician  in  Los  Angeles,  and  I've  seen 
him;  one  who's  an  eye  doctor  from  back  East,  I  never  see  him;  one 
was  a  dentist  that's  living  up  in  Vallejo.   I  don't  know  where 
the  others  went.   That  would  be  interesting  to  record  that. 

This  is  just  a  sideline,  mainly  for  you.   This  doctor,  the 
doctor  in  San  Francisco  where  I  had  gone  for  treatment  was 
there- - 

What  was  his  name? 

Duggan,  in  San  Francisco.   He  had  become  very  friendly  with  the 
padre,  the  captain  in  the  marines.   So  he  used  to  come  over,  and 
we  had  many  discussions  with  the  Baptist,  padre,  and  myself 
regarding  religion,  which  of  course  is  taboo  in  the  navy  and 
women,  but  we'd  stay  up,  go  way  into  the  morning  hours.   It  would 
be  very  interesting.   Because  the  Baptists  don't  believe  in  any 
alcohol  at  all,  and  we'd  sit  there  and  drink  and  have  the 
discussion.   That's  just  a  little  sideline. 


43 


Tarawa 


Kay:      The  most  horrible  thing  was  Tarawa.   At  least,  we  gave  a  party 
for  the  doctors  who  were  going. 

LaBerge:   Tell  me,  what  was  Tarawa? 

Kay:      Tarawa  was  an  island  in  the  middle  of  the  Pacific  the  Japanese 
had,  and  it  was  very  vital  for  our  communication  between  there 
and  China.   It  was  well  fortified,  and  they  expected  to  take  it 
immediately,  in  a  day.   It  took  three  weeks  to  take  it.   Some 
people  with  us  had  been  trained  to  go  in  after  the  combat  troops 
had  taken  it,  but  it  got  so  bad  at  Tarawa  that  they  had  to  go  in. 
Any  of  the  doctors  that  were  there  that  night  were  all  killed. 
Sad  news  when  we  heard  about  it.   Including  a  classmate  of  mine 
from  Berkeley. 

LaBerge:   So  then  the  U.S.  did  take  it? 

Kay:      Did  take  it.   It  was  an  awful  thing. 

LaBerge:   What  year  was  that? 

Kay:      Forty- three.   December  of  '43,  because  I  went- -a  couple  of  times, 
on  an  inspection  trip  in  the  area.   I  had  a  chance  to  go  to 
Tarawa  unofficially.   There  had  been  an  order  to  take  no  trips 
unofficially,  but  these  pilots  were  leaving  and  Tarawa  was  about 
150  miles  from  there.   They  were  going  to  spend  Christmas  Eve  in 
there.   I  had  nothing  to  do,  so  they  said,  "Do  you  want  to  take  a 
ride?"   I  said,  "Sure." 

We  got  there  Christmas  Eve,  and  the  Japs  came  back  up. 
Fortunately,  there  was  a  safe  place  underground.   Because  see,  I 
could  never  say  I  was  under  fire,  because  I  wasn't  supposed  to  be 
there!   [laughs] 

LaBerge:   How  about  your  mail  back  and  forth?   Was  it  censored? 

Kay:       It  was  censored,  everything.   That  coming  to  us  wasn't  censored, 
but  everything  going  out  was  censored.   When  I  came  home,  I  saw 
many  of  my  letters  had  been  cut.   I  could  never  tell  my  wife 
where  I  was;  I  could  tell  her  what  I  was  doing,  but  could  never 
tell  her  where  I  was.   They  censored  that  out,  along  with 
everything  else.   The  censoring  was  being  done  right  there, 
before  it  left  the  port. 

One  night,  we  got  a  call,  and  they  had  five  Japanese 
prisoners.   They  were  bringing  them  in  there  to  stay  overnight 


44 


before  they  went  on  to  Hawaii.   They  had  a  doctor,  and  maybe  he 
would  talk  to  me .   I  went  down  there  to  see  the  captive,  and  he 
wouldn't  say  a  word.   I  asked  him  questions,  and  he  wouldn't  say 
a  word.   I  think  they  were  about  the  only  five  captives  they  had; 
usually,  the  Japs  would  kill  us  and  we'd  kill  them  when  we 
captured  them,  bang,  bang,  bang.   So  we  didn't  take  many 
prisoners.   They  shot  us,  and  we  shot  them.   That  was  one  of  the 
tales  of  World  War  II  which  was  bad.   They  marched  them  off  and 
the  marines  would  sit  there  and  shoot  at  them.   That's  enough  for 
Samoa. 


Back  to  Mare  Island.  1944 


LaBerge:   So  when  were  you  sent  back  to  the  United  States? 

Kay:      About  the  middle  of  '44.   I  was  sent  back  to  Mare  Island,  where 
we  did  nothing  but  urology. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  have  to  put  in  a  plea  to  be  at  Mare  Island? 

Kay:      No.   I  found  out  in  the  navy,  your  number  one  choice  you  never 
got;  your  number  two  choice,  maybe;  your  number  three,  always 
was.   So  I  put  Mare  Island  as  number  three. 

LaBerge:   Weren't  you  smart!   What  did  you  put  for  number  one  and  two? 

Kay:      One,  the  hospital  ship,  and  I  wanted  the  hospital  you  know.   I 

got  my  hospital  ship,  and  by  then  I  was  in  Mare  Island  until  the 
war  was  over,  in  the  middle  of  October.   In  September,  you  had  to 
have  so  many  points  to  get  out,  and  I  was  short  about  ten  points. 
I  had  to  stay  in  for  a  while. 

Then  in  October- - 
LaBerge:   This  is  '45? 

Kay:      Forty- five.   October,  my  wife  was  pregnant  with  the  second  child. 
In  October  of  '45,  we  got  word  that  I  was  being  transferred  to 
the  hospital  ship.   But  I  had  two  weeks  leave.   So  at  the  end  of 
two  weeks,  I  went  down  to  San  Francisco  and  reported  in.   The 
girl  there  said- -you  see,  the  war  was  over- -"Do  you  really  want 
to  go?"   So  I  said  "No,"  and  she  said,  "Step  over  there."   So  I 
was  out . 


The  hospital  ship  I  was  supposed  to  meet  came  in  the  day 
after  I  was  released.   If  I  hadn't  gone  that  day,  I  would  have 


LaBerge ; 
Kay: 


been  on  this  hospital  ship,  went  to  the  peace  treaty  signing  in- - 
where  was  it,  Japan--!  would  have  been  over  there.   Fortunately. 
So  I  was  out  of  active  duty.   We  were  living  in  Vallejo. 

Where  was  your  wife  living  while  you  were  in  Samoa? 

She  was  down  with  her  family  in  Los  Angeles  with  the  baby. 


Trip  Home  by  Air 


LaBerge:   You  did  a  lot  of  moving  around  then,  didn't  you? 

Kay:      Yes.   And  on  leaving  Samoa,  all  the  people  I  had  gone  with  were 

going  first.   They  all  left  on  the  ship  on  a  Tuesday  morning,  and 
I  remember  I  had  said  goodbye  to  them.   Wednesday  morning,  my 
orders  came  in,  first  available  transportation,  either  air  or 
sea.   So  I  took  air. 

Came  back,  and  couldn't  make  any  calls,  so  I  arrived  in  San 
Francisco  and  called  my  wife,  and  she  came  up  the  next  day.   She 
said,  "I'll  be  there  tomorrow,"  forgetting  that  transportation 
was  hard.   Our  reunion  was  held  in  a  Pullman  car  in  San  Jose.   I 
went  down  to  San  Jose  and  got  her.   She  went  on  the  Lark.   And  my 
son  would  have  nothing  to  do  with  me,  for  the  first  couple  of 
months.   I  was  a  stranger,  and  I  spoiled  their  whole  life. 
Because  he  had  been  down  there,  and  he  was  living  with  her  mother 
and  father,  sister.   All  those  people  are  important  to  a  child. 
I  spoiled  it,  and  he  wouldn't  have  anything  to  do  with  me.   Took 
two  months  before  he  would  come  to  me.   And  it's  been  fine  ever 
since. 

LaBerge:   I  guess  I've  heard  other  people  say  the  same  thing,  that  it  was  a 
real  hard  transition  afterwards. 

Kay:      Hard  for  them.   I  came  back  to  Mare  Island,  and  I  was  there  when 
the  war  ended.   The  navy  life  is  different  than  life  that  we 
knew.   We  worked  during  the  day,  and  then  had  the  cocktail  hour. 
I  am  convinced  that  I  drank  more  liquor  than  I  did  the  rest  of  my 

life. 

Down  in  Samoa,  we  had  to  each  have  our  drinks  every  night. 
I'd  saved  up  a  case  of  scotch  and  a  case  of  bourbon  which 
couldn't  get  here  until  the  ship  had.   Finally  got  somebody  on 
one  of  the  ships  to  bring  it  back.   In  my  trip  back  from  Samoa,  I 
knew  when  the  ship  was  coming,  so  I  went  down.   I'd  seen  the 
people  all  off.   I  came  and  met  them  all  when  they  got  off  the 


46 


ship.   [laughter]   They  looked  at  me,  and  said  how  the  hell  did  I 
do  that?  But  I  was  there. 

In  the  navy,  you  go  by  rank.   I  was  the  medical  officer  for 
the  area  with  two  stripes.   Mobile  3  had  a  regular  navy  captain 
with  four  stripes,  but  he  was  under  me.   That  aggravated  him  no 
end,  how  could  a  two-stripe  be  in  charge.   I  was  trying  to  be  as 
nice  as  I  could,  but  he  got  very  upset  with  me.   He  wouldn't  talk 
to  me,  so  1  got  an  order  for  some  doctors  who  were  needed 
someplace  else,  so  I  assigned  all  his  doctors  over  that  were 
under  him.   He  became  quite  friendly,  as  you  can  imagine. 

So  the  day  that  I  left  Samoa,  he  was  going,  too.   He  was 
going  down  to  New  Zealand,  and  I  was  going--!  didn't  know  about 
it--l  was  going  to  New  Zealand,  had  a  chance  to  be  on  that  plane. 
I  could  go  down  there  first  before  I  went  home,  check  out  New 
Zealand.   The  transportation  officer  said,  "You  know,  Captain  So- 
and-So  is  going  to  be  on  that  plane."   I  said,  "Thank  you.   I'll 
go  back  to  Hawaii."   Took  us  two  days  to  go  from  Samoa  by  air  to 
Hawaii . 

LaBerge:   So  you  never  went  to  New  Zealand? 

Kay:      No.   And  then  Hawaii --it  was  twelve  hours  by  air,  twelve  hours. 
I  slept  on  the  mail  sacks,  it  was  a  mail  plane. 

Boy,  talking  about  Red  Cross,  this  guy  down  there  did  all 
these  natives,  gave  them  candy  and  everything,  and  then  he  got 
sick.   He  had  to  come  in  to  the  clinic  in  to  me,  and  I  told  him  I 
needed  some  special  candy- -he  had  a  cirrhosis  and  needed  sugar. 
So  I  got  plenty  of  candy,  and  when  I  had  previously  asked  for 
candy,  he  never  had  it.   So  I  got  a  lot  of  it  after  he  was  sick. 
So  I  said,  "Okay,  finally  take  this,  and  you're  going  to  be 
shipped  back  to  the  States  tomorrow."   He  said,  "You  can't  do 
that. "   So  he  went. 


Building  Hospital  on  Samoa  and  Sailing 


Kay:      While  in  Samoa,  after  the  marines  had  left,  they  all  moved  out, 
and  they  left  a  lot  of  stuff  behind,  and  we  found  it.   I  built  a 
new  hospital  there  for  the  base,  built  a  thirty- five -bed 
hospital.   I  thought  it  was  pretty  good,  well  designed.   When  I 
went  back  now,  it  was  gone.   But  at  that  time,  we  used  it.   It 
was  quite  a  hospital,  thirty- five  beds.   I  had  a  lot  of  fun  with 
planning  that,  I  planned  it  the  way  I  wanted  to. 


LaBerge:   And  what  would  you  do  to  get--? 

Kay:      There  was  enough  equipment  on  the  island  that  the  marines  had 
left,  that  we  were  able  to  do  this.   Everything  brand  new. 

LaBerge:   And  you  just  got  regular  navy  guys  to  build  it? 

Kay:      Yes.   They  had  a  battalion  down  there  of  seabees,  assigned  to  the 
station,  and  they  did  it.   For  recreation,  I  learned  how  to  sail 
a  ship,  sail  a  yacht.   See,  when  the  war  broke,  all  the  navy  had 
to  be  out  of  sight.   They  sunk  them  all.   After  Tarawa,  we  had 
nothing  to  do.   We  had  some  kind  of  divers  that  went  down  and 
brought  them  up.   So  I  got  hold  of  a  forty- foot  sailboat  and  had 
it  all  fixed  up.   I  was  planning  to  ship  it  home,  but  when  I  got 
out,  I  left  it  there. 

LaBerge:   Have  you  sailed  since  you've  been  back  here? 

Kay:      Yes.   We  sailed  down  there.   I  learned  how  to  sail,  learned  how 
to  do  all  that.   That  last  six  months  was  sort  of  like 
recreation,  we  had  nothing  to  do.   Except  every  week,  a  tanker  of 
oil  came  in,  because  we  could  assign  their  gas,  that's  where  they 
unloaded,  to  be  shipped  down  further.   I  don't  know  how  many 
millions  of  gallons  of  gas  were  left  there.   Because  somebody  in 
Washington  forgot  to  shut  off  the  supply,  and  we  just  came  and 
put  it  out  in  the  boondocks.   I've  often  wondered  what  happened 
to  it. 

We  had  an  air  station,  air  field- -five  airplanes  could  take 
off  at  the  same  time.   This  was  how  important  it  was.   That's 
where  a  lot  of  navy  planes  came  and  landed.   I  don't  think  people 
here  realize  how  important  American  Samoa  was. 

LaBerge:   I'm  sure  they  don't. 

Kay:      Because  it  was  really  the  only  post  we  had.   The  nicest  ships 
that  came  in  were  the  British.   They  would  have  us  aboard  for 
rum.   We  had  them  all- -French,  Italians- -not  Russians.   All  of 
our  Allies  were  there.   British,  French,  Russian.   I  used  to  go 
out  and  quarantine- -now,  that's  what,  I  was  the  quarantine 
officer. 

LaBerge:  Okay,  that  was  the  name  of  it. 

Kay:  I  went  out  on  board  with  the  pilot  just  like-- 

LaBerge:  In  the  movies? 

Kay:  Have  you  ever  been  on  a  cruise  ship? 


48 


LaBerge:   Yes. 

Kay:      Well,  the  pilot  boat  goes  to  the  ship  to  bring  it  in.   That 

became  quite  an  experience.   I  always  went  to  the  mess  officer  to 
see  what  vegetables- -we  had  no  fresh  vegetables,  no  fresh  fruit. 
We  had  bananas,  and  papayas.   But  no  milk.   There  would  be  a 
deal,  we  could  make  it.   It  was  very  interesting.   I  learned  that 
the  navy  is  run  by  its  petty  officers ,  warrant  officers ,  not  by 
the  officers.   That  was  my  experience  in  the  navy. 


Naval  Reserves  for  Twenty-eight  Years 


LaBerge:   Well  then,  since  we're  talking  about  the  navy,  you  stayed  in  the 
navy  as  a  reserve  officer. 

Kay:      Stayed  in  as  a  reserve  officer.   I  was  in  for  a  total  of  twenty- 
eight  years.   In  the  navy,  we  had  made  arrangements  to  have  a 
unit  stationed  at  Peralta  Hospital,  so  we  met  there.   We  would 
meet  there  thirty- five  times  a  year  to  get  credit.   We  had  a 
meeting  from  twelve  to  two  once  a  week.   Then  we  had  a  unit  at 
Alta  Bates,  and  then  when  the  Korean  War  came,  they  took  a  lot  of 
our  officers  away.   By  now,  I  was  a  captain  in  the  navy.   My 
advancement  came  very  quickly.   I  was  lieutenant  commander  senior 
grade,  then  I  became  a  commander  in  six  months,  and  then  became  a 
captain.   In  other  words,  I  caught  up-- 

LaBerge:   With  where  you  should  have  been? 

Kay:      Yes.   In  the  navy,  they  put  up  what  they  call  "all  nav 

promotion,"  and  they  took  a  whole  group  of  people  up  from  one 
date  to  another,  and  they  advanced  them  one  rank.   I  was  never  in 
that.   But  I  always  got  my  promotions  by  appointments.   In  other 
words,  I  was  named  in  every  promotion. 

LaBerge:   What  was  the  other  thing  called,  where  the  whole  group--? 

Kay:      All  navs .   All  nav. 

LaBerge:   So  then  when  you  retired,  were  you  still  a  captain? 

Kay:      Yes.   I  retired  after  twenty-eight  years  of  duty.   First  of  all, 
you  don't  get  paid  after  twenty- six  years.   And  secondly,  they 
were  making  one  naval  captain  an  admiral  each  year,  and  I  was  up 
for  admiral  in  about  300  years. 

LaBerge:   In  300  years?  Oh,  well  why- - [laughs] 


49 


Kay:      So  I  dropped  it.   The  last  two  years  in  the  navy,  in  this  unit,  I 
was  the  commanding  officer,  and  I  went  back  to  Great  Lakes 
Training  Station  for  a  week.   They  gave  us  a  course  back  there  on 
how  to  use  nuclear  weapons- -and  I  had  a  week  there.   We  lived  in 
the  bachelor's  quarters.   The  second  floor  was  reserved  for  women 
officers.   We  never  stopped  at  the  second  floor.   That  was  new  to 
us,  because  in  our  day,  bachelor's  quarters  were  for  men  only. 
Women  lived  on  the  second  floor  and  we  lived  on  the  third  and 
fourth  floor.   Again,  I  am  sorry,  but  I  sleepwalk.   So  that's  the 
navy  career. 

LaBerge:   That's  been  an  interesting  experience. 

Kay:      Anybody  that  gets  into  the  navy,  if  they  possibly  can,  should 
stay  in  the  reserves.   It's  very  useful  now. 

LaBerge:  Because  you  get  a  retirement  pension? 

Kay:  Yes,  it's  very  nice. 

LaBerge:  And  that  wasn't  too  bad,  to  have  a  meeting  once  a  week? 

Kay:  In  the  army,  you  had  to  go  away  for  two  weeks. 

LaBerge:  Yes,  in  the  summer  or  something. 

Kay:      In  the  navy,  you  did,  too.   But  not  while  we  had  units.   One  in 
Oakland  at  Peralta,  and  the  other  one  that  was  Alta  Bates. 

LaBerge:   Doesn't  the  air  force  reserve- -don' t  they  have  to  go  away  too  for 
two  weeks? 

Kay:  Yes,  all  of  them  do.   But  this  was  a  special--. 

LaBerge:  A  special  deal. 

Kay:  So  I  still  had  a  little  contact  in  Washington. 

LaBerge:  I  see. 

Kay:  His  name  is  Nimitz. 

LaBerge:  Oh,  that's  right!   He's  the  one  you  used  to  walk  to  class  with. 

Kay:  Every  day. 

LaBerge:  That  came  in  very  handy,  very  handy. 


50 


Kay:      He  never  made  arrangements  for  the  medical  units  but  his 

assistant  warrant  officer  could  do  it.   After  being  in  the  navy, 
you  learn  how. 


Oak  Knoll  Naval  Hospital.  1960 


Kay:      Then  about  that  time  the  navy  came  out  and  they  wanted  to  close 
Oak  Knoll,  and  move  everything  to  San  Francisco.   I  met  with 
them.   I  met  with  a  group  that  came  out  for  everything  in  Alameda 
County.   But  the  interesting  thing  was,  there  was  a  captain  in 
the  hospital  corps,  not  a  doctor.   He  had  been  my  petty  officer, 
chief  petty  officer,  when  I  was  in  San  Francisco,  and  doing  naval 
recruiting.   Now  he  was  a  captain  in  the  hospital  corps,  which 
was  very  interesting.   He  was  with  this  group  that  got  stationed 
here.   Kind  of  old  time  --hadn't  seen  him  all  during  the  war,  or 
since  the  beginning  of  the  war.   Interesting.   Spent  three  days 
arguing. 

LaBerge:   Whether  Oak  Knoll  should  stay  open  or  not? 

Kay:      Kept  Oak  Knoll  open.   Explaining  to  them  how  it  worked  for  us  and 
how  important  it  was  to  all  the  area.   Now  I  see  they've  closed 
it. 

Before  Oak  Knoll  was  opened,  there  was  one  pathologist  at 
Mare  Island,  and  he  didn't  go  overseas.   He  was  transferred  to 
Oak  Knoll  as  a  first  officer  there,  and  he  had  a  little  shed  out 
on  the  golf  course  that  was  then  at  Oak  Knoll.   Two  officers 
assigned.   So  I  saw  Oak  Knoll  from  the  beginning.   It  used  to  be 
a  beautiful  golf  course.   People  don't  realize  that.   The 
officer's  club  there  was  the  clubhouse. 


LaBerge:   I  think  we've  finished  World  War  II  and  the  navy. 
Kay:      I  think  we  have. 

LaBerge:   Unless  you  think  of  anything  else  there.   How  about,  then, 

getting  back  to  regular  life  and  the  birth  of  your  second  son? 

Kay:      The  birth  of  my  second  son  took  place  in  Vallejo,  in  December  of 
'45. 

LaBerge:   And  his  name  is? 


51 


Kay:      Robert.   He's  a  doctor. 

LaBerge:   He's  in  Cleveland,  is  that  right? 

Kay:      Cleveland,  Ohio,  at  the  Cleveland  Clinic 


52 


III  POSTWAR  PRACTICE  IN  UROLOGY 


Finding  Housing  and  Opening  Practice 


LaBerge:   Did  you  stay  in  Vallejo? 

Kay:      No,  we  moved  around.   We  wanted  to  go  to  Berkeley  and  find  a 
place . 

LaBerge:   Was  it  difficult  to  find  housing? 

Kay:      Very  difficult,  yes.   We  found  a  place  in  Piedmont  to  rent. 

Because  after  all,  I  didn't  have  any  money.   I  did  have  whatever 
severance  pay.   We  lived  there  for  two  years.   I  opened  a 
practice,  and  Dr.  Meads  who  did  my  residency  and  let  me  use  his 
office  two  days  a  week,  which  started  me  off,  he  helped  me. 

LaBerge:  What  had  you  done  with  all  your  equipment  when  you  closed  your 
office  when  the  war  started? 

Kay:      I  gave  it  away,  so  that  I  didn't  have  too  much  equipment.   I  gave 
it  to  this  Dr.  Meads,  he  took  my  stuff.   He  was  an  older  man.   A 
fine  teacher.   I  came  back,  and  worked  in  my  office  and  three 
weeks  after  I  was  in  practice,  I  developed  dizziness,  Just  in 
three  weeks.   Have  you  ever  heard  of  Meuniera's  disease? 

LaBerge:   I've  heard  of  it.   I  can  probably  find  it  in  the  dictionary. 

Kay:      You're  dizzy,  and  can't  stand. 

LaBerge:   Was  it  a  result  of  being  overseas,  or--? 

Kay:  I  don't  know  what  it  was.  It  was  a  great  thing  to  have  happen 
when  you  had  your  office  open  three  weeks .  So  when  I  got  over 
that,  then  I  opened  my  practice  again  in  Dr.  Meads'  office. 

LaBerge:   Where  was  the  office? 


53 


Kay:      On  Grand  Avenue.   Then  I  was  there  for  about  six  months,  and  then 
moved  onto  the  hill. 

LaBerge:   So  you  were  really  starting  from  scratch. 

Kay:      Yes.   In  '44,  Dr.  Meads  had  been  very  active  in  the  Western 
Section  of  the  American  Urological  Association,  he'd  been 
president.   During  his  presidency,  I  became  a  member  of  the 
Western  Section  of  the  association. 

LaBerge:   Was  it  a  prestigious  thing,  like  did  you  have  to  be  invited? 

Kay:      You  did  then,  but  not  now.  Let's  see,  what  else.   That  was  the 
beginning  of  some  of  my  interests  in  politics.   I  joined  the 
Alameda  County  Medical  Association  in  '37.   At  that  time,  it  was 
Alameda  County,  not  Contra  Costa.   That  came  later.   So  I  joined 
that  in  '37,  before  the  war.   In  fact,  the  last  six  months  before 
I  went  to  Edinburgh.   And  then,  I  practiced  again  in  '45. 


Postwar  Reception  from  the  Hospitals 


Kay: 


LaBerge: 
Kay: 


LaBerge 
Kay: 


The  interesting  thing  was,  which  I'll  never  forget,  is  I  came 
down  to  the  hospital  after  I  was  discharged,  and  didn't  have  any 
civilian  clothes.   It  was  military  uniforms.   And  they  said,  "So 
glad  to  see  you.   How  are  you  getting  along?  When  are  you 
getting  out?"   I  said,  "I'm  out."   "Oh."   I  really  had  a  cold 
reception,  never  had  a  good  welcome.   It  was  fine,  as  long  as  I 
was  not  going  to  be  bothering  anyone  in  practice. 

But  that  you  were  coming,  and  you  were  going  to  be  a  rival,  or 
something? 

I  guess  so.   Very  interesting.   I  came  back,  and  I  went  to  the 
hospitals  that  I  had  been  associated  with  before.   The  only 
hospital  that  really  took  me  was  Peralta.   They  said,  "Give  us 
your  phone  number  and  address,  and  you're  on  the  staff."  The 
other  hospitals,  I  had  to  reapply. 

Really.   I  am  so  surprised.   I  would  think  that  anyone  who  had 
served  their  country  would  have  been  welcomed  back. 


It  was  a  very  interesting  episode  to  find  that  out. 
make  application  to  the  other  hospitals. 


I  had  to 


54 


LaBerge:   The  last  time,  we  ended  with  you  coming  back  to  Oakland  after  the 
war,  and  you  were  telling  me  about  rejoining  the  medical  staffs, 
and  how  you  weren't  really  welcomed  with  open  arms. 

Kay:      Except  for  one. 
LaBerge:   Peralta? 

Kay:      Peralta.   That's  the  only  one.   I  had  to  reapply  to  all  the 

others,  and  had  to  go  through  all  the  rigmarole  of  getting  on 
them. 

LaBerge:   What  kind  of  rigmarole  is  there? 

Kay:      You  have  to  make  an  application,  and  then  they  decide  whether 
they  want  you  on  or  not  . 

LaBerge:   Can  they  decide  no  without  cause? 

Kay:      Yes,  in  those  days  they  could.   One  hospital  in  particular  said 
no  because  of  my  religion. 

LaBerge:   You're  kidding!   Which  hospital? 

Kay:      Samuel  Merritt. 

LaBerge:   You  are  kidding!   Did  you  ever  join  later? 

Kay:      Yes,  I  did.   I  joined  later,  and  became  an  active  staff  member. 
But  originally,  that  was  the  case. 

LaBerge:   I  can't  even  believe  that. 

Kay:      Nobody  can  today,  but  it's  true.   The  same  reason  I  couldn't  ever 
join  the  Claremont  Country  Club. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  make  an  application? 

Kay:      No.   Now  they  take  Jewish  members  —  now  you  can  join.   Couldn't 
join  then.   It  was  interesting. 


Kay:      I  got  involved  in  Berkeley  at  Herrick,  and  was  president  of  the 
staff  for  about  a  year.   I  quit.   Had  a  run-in  with  their 
management  . 

LaBerge:   Why  did  you  decide  to  be  president  in  the  first  place? 


55 


Kay:      They  asked  me. 
LaBerge:   They  asked  you  and-- 

Alta  Bates  Hospital  History 


Kay:      And  I  took  it.   I  think  one  of  the  reasons  was  I  was  from 

Berkeley  originally.   Although  they  were  a  little  upset  because 
my  father  had  saved  Alta  Bates- -nobody  knows  about  that.   But 
Alta  Bates  almost  went  broke  in  '31  or  '32,  and  my  father,  being 
a  merchant  in  Berkeley,  got  all  of  the  creditors  together  and 
said,  "Look,  let's  keep  this  open."   Alta  Bates  was  a  very  small 
little  place.   Alta  Bates  was  there,  the  woman. 

LaBerge:   Oh,  she  was? 

Kay:      Oh,  yes,  I  knew  her  very  well.   Creditors  took  [commercial]  paper 
for  the  future,  and  that's  why  Alta  Bates  is  there  today.   My 
father  was  the  man  behind  it.   But  you'll  never  find  his  name 
anyplace.   My  father  served  on  the  board  for  many  years,  he  was 
treasurer  for  many  years.   He  was  not  given,  at  the  end  of  his 
life,  the  recognition  he  deserved.   We  were  told  that,  "If  you 
give  us  $7,500,  we'll  have  a  picture  of  him."   I  said,  "You've 
got  to  be  kidding."  That  I'll  never  forget.   I've  never  quite 
gotten  over  this. 

LaBerge:   For  doing  that.   Was  the  hospital  where  it  is  now? 

Kay:      Yes.   There  used  to  be  an  old  house  and  Alta  Bates  had  the  wing 
of  the  old  house --the  first  part  of  the  house  that  was  built  is 
gone  now.   They  redid  it,  but  it's  all  on  the  same  spot.   Where 
the  south  edge  of  the  hospital  is,  that's  where  she  was.   She  had 
a  nursing  school  there.   I  think  people  have  forgotten  about 
that. 

LaBerge:   Is  that  how  it  started,  the  nursing  school  was  first? 

Kay:      Well,  the  hospital  was  first,  and  then  she  had  a  nursing  school. 
She  was  a  nurse-anesthetist.   She  was  interesting.   She  was  never 
married.   She  adopted  a  boy,  Charles  Bates.   They  often  wondered 
how  she  never  married  and  had  a  boy.   I  knew  him  very  well.   That 
was  Alta  Bates. 

LaBerge:   Did  they  name  the  hospital  after  her  because  she  contributed,  or 
because  -  - 


56 


Kay:      It  was  originally  named  after  her;  the  Alta  Bates  Nursing  Home. 
And  hospital. 


[Interview  3:   February  3,  1994 ]## 


Kay:      Alta  Bates  Hospital  started  as  a- -Miss  Alta  Bates  had  a  little 
small  house,  and  started  taking  patients,  I  forgot  the  exact 
date.  And  then  she  had  a  nursing  school  attached  to  it,  because 
she  loved  to  teach.   She  gave  anesthetics- -she  was  an 
anesthetist.   She  was  never  married;  adopted  a  son  and  a 
daughter,  and  raised  them.   I  don't  know  what's  happened  to  them. 

LaBerge:   Is  their  last  name  Bates? 

Kay:      Yes. 

LaBerge:   So  it  was  well  established,  though,  by  the  time  you-- 

Kay:      Oh,  yes.   By  the  time  I  came  along,  they  already  had  the  big 
building,  and  it's  now  been  torn  down  and  replaced  by  this 
present  building.   I  became  active  there  at  the  same  time  I 
became  active  at  Herrick.   But  Alta  Bates  was  there  until  she 
died,  giving  anesthetics. 

LaBerge:   Vas  the  hospital  named  after  her  because  she  was  so  active,  or 
did  she  help  raise  the  funds? 

Kay:      Because  she  was  active.   She  started  it- -it  was  Alta  Bates  Rest 

Home  or  something  in  the  beginning,  and  they  kept  the  name.   From 
'31  to  '35,  they  almost  went  into  bankruptcy,  and  I  think  I  told 
you  the  story  of  my  father,  went  to  other  merchants  and  said  to 
them,  "Let's  take  paper  instead  of  money  to  keep  them  open."  And 
that's  what  they  did. 

LaBerge:   You  did  tell  me.   While  we're  talking  about  the  hospitals,  is 
there  a  different  philosophy  at  the  different  hospitals  you 
were- -because  you  really  went  to  a  lot,  when  I  look  at  this  list. 

Kay:      Well,  there  wasn't  too  much- -Herrick,  of  course,  was  a  different 
type  of  hospital  at  the  time.   It  took  everybody,  and  standards 
were  high,  but  not  as  high  as  the  others.   Alta  Bates  was  very 
high. 


57 


Teaching  Medicine 


Establishing  Residency  Program  in  Urology  at  Highland 
Hospital 


Kay:      Well,  you  had  to  have  good  standing  in  your  profession.   That's 
what  I  mean.   Recognized  well  by  your  associates.   Feral ta, 
Providence,  and  Merritt  were  top-grade.   I  was  president  of 
Highland  Hospital  medical  staff,  which  was  the  county  hospital. 
I  worked  out  there  some  twenty-five  years,  started  a  residency 
program  at  Highland  in  urology,  which  went  on  for  about  twenty 
years.   It  was  stopped  because  of  some  rulings.   But  there  are 
about  eight  urologists  in  the  area  who  were  trained  there. 

LaBerge:   How  would  you  go  about  starting  a  residency  program? 

Kay:      You  had  to  get  approval  from  the  American  Board  of  Urology.   When 
they  gave  your  approval,  you  had  to  get  your  program  together, 
how  many  years  you  were  going  to  do  this,  this,  and  this.   How 
much  clinical  work,  how  much  practical  work,  how  much  research, 
how  much  anatomy.   And  when  you  got  all  that  together,  then  you 
presented  it  to  the  American  Board  of  Urology,  who  accepted  or 
didn't  accept  it.   And  they  accepted  it. 

At  that  time.  Highland  had  a  lot  of  residencies,  which  I 
don't  think  they  have  now.   They  had  several  departments. 

LaBerge :   So  how  many  other  doctors  did  you  need  on  the  staff  to  do  that? 
Just  to  do  the  urology  residency? 

Kay :      We  had  nine . 

LaBerge:   Because  when  you  started,  you  were  one  of  the  few  urologists, 
isn't  that  right? 

Kay:      When  I  first  started  in  practice,  I  was  one  of  seven  in  the  whole 
area.   There  are  now  forty- three. 

LaBerge:   That's  still  not  a  big  number,  is  it? 
Kay:      No. 


58 


Providence  Hospital  Nurses  and  UCSF 


LaBerge:   You  also  taught  at  Providence  Hospital? 

Kay:      Taught  nurses  at  Providence  Hospital  for  about  ten  years.   Taught 
them  about  urology. 

LaBerge:   And  what  else- -UCSF? 

Kay:      For  three  years,  when  I  first  started,  I  went  over  and  taught  as 
a- -I  don't  know  what  they  call  them,  assistant  something. 
Because  of  the  traffic,  I  quit. 

LaBerge:  Were  you  teaching  nurses  there,  or  medical  students? 

Kay:  Medical  students  and  fellows,  residents. 

LaBerge:  Did  you  like  that  part  of  your  career,  of  teaching? 

Kay:  Very  much  so. 

LaBerge:   So  when  it  says  that  you  interned  at  Alameda  County  Hospitals,  it 
didn't  mean  Highland? 

Kay:      Yes,  that's  Highland. 
LaBerge:   Just  Highland,  okay. 

Kay:      That's  it.   Well,  Highland  and  Fairmount  were  the  two  of  them 

together.   As  an  intern,  you  spent  three  months  out  at  Fairmount, 
and  nine  months  at  Highland.   When  you're  a  resident,  you  spent 
all  the  time  at  Highland.   While  at  Highland,  I  had  served  in  the 
emergency  department  under  "Brick  Muller,"  who  was  an  alumnus  of 
California.   I  don't  know  whether  you  know  the  name  or  not. 

LaBerge:   No,  I  don't. 

Kay:      He  was  a  famous  end  for  the  University  of  California  football 
team,  I  think  their  first  All-American  for  the  University  of 
California. 

LaBerge:   Do  you  know  about  what  year  that  he  was--? 
Kay:      He  was  in  '21  or  '22. 


*™    c    c    E  _*j  ^j  •*••  rr*  •—    *  *^    Cxi-  >  ^2  (j 

—^  -C    ~*     O     ^"     C   "^     eg     ™     U     3J  ^^     H  C     1*     C    "~*    •*     U     i     "     ^     X     -L    W 

O  •—   ^^  *— •      W    •—      ^    Of      o    "d   ^3  "^      *"      1>   ^1   •"«    ^    •"   "*•   "C      O   •*•    -C    ."    "^S      O 


3  °  Jc 

n  ^  "^  B 

S  S   o  c 

<  ab  -s  2  i 


S    -.^:l-3 

32      ^S  =  I1«S 

^     ~Hi  ^-=-5 


i     -   -5     w  **      I     •-  -C   '=     x   "5    "tj 

iil_i51xj!:s.i 


^N           5    5  S    O    «  «    «  i»  Z-Cffl          S    X    5    *  K         —  _? 

^N                                 .    *  ••>  *^.  —         >•  r  —        —        *tr    w  ~"    •"• 

^          ^^>    =    ^^^  «-^-J-SC-3icS(c—  -2 

^S^.H^^-^s  ^c2--33^§~-^--r: 

c  — *3'~^*c       2»i«—  >.  ?"^5Jw"H"5*2~5 


59 


IV  ACTIVITIES  IN  VARIOUS  MEDICAL  ASSOCIATIONS 


Alameda  County  Medical  Association  and  Kaiser  Doctors 


LaBerge:   Okay,  I  can  look  it  up.   When  you  decided  to  go  into  urology  in 
the  first  place,  how  did  you  decide,  for  instance,  to  go  into 
solo  practice  rather  than  joining  Kaiser  or  joining  a  group? 

Kay:      We  didn't  have  groups.   I  didn't  join  Kaiser,  you'll  see  in 

there,  Kaiser  was  not  well  accepted.   During  my  presidency,  I  got 
Kaiser  members  to  join  the  association.   That  was  quite  a  thing, 
and  I  got  a  very  nice  letter  in  there  [pointing  to  scrapbook] 
from  Kaiser  talking  about  how  nice  I  was. 

LaBerge:   Join  the  urological  association,  or  join  which? 

Kay:      County  Medical. 

LaBerge:   Oh,  they  weren't  members  of  the  County  Medical? 

Kay:      They  wouldn't  elect  them.   I  became  president  and  made  some 
decisions . 

LaBerge:   That  sounds  almost  like  the  way  we  used  to  think  of  osteopaths. 

Kay:      Of  course,  we  thought  of  osteopaths  that  way  until- -I'm  trying  to 
think  when  it  was;  I  was  in  the  House  of  Delegates  of  the 
California  Medical  Association  when  we  decided  to  give  them  their 
M.D.s  and  accept  them.   Then  I  had  the  job  of  deciding  who  in 
Alameda  County  should  become  an  M.D.   All  the  osteopaths  here  but 
one  got  their  M.D.  immediately.   One  person  jumped  the  gun,  said 
he  was  an  M.D.  about  three  months  before  we  accepted  them,  so  we 
postponed  him  for  many  years.   That's  a  little  issue,  as 
president  of  the  ACCMA. 

When  I  joined  the  County  Medical,  it  was  only  Alameda  County 
Medical  then.   Years  later,  we  joined  with  Contra  Costa  County. 
Let's  see,  what  else?  We  used  to  have  monthly  meetings  of  the 


60 


County  Medical  where  you  discussed  cases,  where  you  discussed 
practice  of  medicine.   But  the  association  got  so  big  that  they 
only  have  an  annual  meeting  [now],  and  discuss  nothing  medical, 
just  social,  and  all  of  the  business  of  the  association  is  taken 
care  of  by  committee. 

LaBerge:   Are  you  required  to  join? 

Kay:      You  were  then.   You're  not  now,  but  you  were  required  then  to 
join  hospital  staffs,  and  you  had  to  be  a  member  of  the  County 
Medical. 

LaBerge:   I  was  wondering  if  it  was  something  like  the  California  Bar,  that 
you  have  to  be  a  member. 

Kay:      No.   But  the  hospitals  wouldn't  accept  you.   I  don't  know  whether 
they  do  now.   You  had  to  have  County  Medical  membership.   And  if 
you  belonged  to  the  County,  you  didn't  necessarily  belong  to  the 
State,  but  eventually  it  became  if  you  belonged  to  the  County, 
you  had  to  belong  to  the  State  Medical. 

LaBerge:   How  did  you  get  involved  sort  of  in  politics  in  these  different 
associations?  What  motivated  you  to  do  that? 

Kay:      I  don't  know.   Well,  I  think  actually--!  shouldn't  say  that  one 
of  the  motivations  was  because  of  my  religion,  but  no  member  of 
my  religion  had  been  active  in  any  of  these  organizations.   I 
just  wanted  to  prove  that  we  were  no  different  than  the  rest.   I 
guess  that  was  the  beginning  of  it.   See,  I  was  the  first  Jewish 
president  of  all  these  things,  first  one  in  the  state  off ices- - 
no,  I  wasn't  the  first  in  the  state  offices;  I  was  the  second 
one . 


California  Medical  Association 


Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 
LaBerge : 


But  once  I  got  started,  the  County  Medical,  if  you  were  on  the 
board  of  the  County  Medical,  you  automatically  became  a  member  of 
the  House  of  Delegates  of  the  State  Association. 

Which  is  called  the  California  Medical  Association? 


Yes. 

Okay,  I'm  looking  at  these  dates  here. 
Delegates  do? 


What  did  the  House  of 


61 


Kay:      They're  the  ones,  the  governing  body,  of  the  state,  and  they 

decide  what  politics  and  so  forth.   They  also  had  a  section  of 
scientific,  so  that  at  all  the  conventions,  there  was  always  a 
scientific  meeting  associated  with  it.   New  cases,  new  ideas,  new 
drugs,  new  everything,  were  presented. 

LaBerge:   Did  the  California  Medical  Association  have  an  ethics  review 
board  or  something  like  that,  too? 

Kay:  Yes. 

LaBerge:  So  were  you  involved  in  that? 

Kay:  When  I  was  chairman  of  the  council,  I  was.   Not  until  then. 

LaBerge:  So  would  you  be  involved  in  setting  up  the  programs,  and--? 

Kay:      Yes.   It  was  interesting.   In  the  California  Medical  Association, 
you  have  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  then  you  have  your  officers. 
The  president  is  the  selected- -the  president  of  the  California 
Medical  Association  is  sort  of  the  titular  head.   He  does  public 
relations.   The  council,  which  is  about  fifteen  members,  had  a 
chairman,  and  they  ran  the  business  part,  ran  everything  in  the 
California  Medical  Association. 

LaBerge:  And  you  were  chairman  in  1968? 

Kay:  Yes,  to  '71. 

LaBerge:  Until  1971? 

Kay:  Yes,  '68  to  '71.   I  was  vice  chairman  a  few  years  before. 

LaBerge:  So  you  actually  ran  the  business  of  the--? 

Kay:      Yes.   What  we  were  going  to  do  and  when  we  were  going  to  do  it, 
and  set  up  the  programs,  set  up  the  meetings.   We  had  a  meeting, 
an  annual  meeting,  and  special  meetings.   The  council  would  meet 
every  month. 

LaBerge:   And  then  the  whole  association  would  meet  once  a  year? 
Kay:      Right. 

LaBerge:   That's  a  lot  of  meetings- -that' s  a  lot  of  time  that  you  invested 
in  that. 


Kay: 


I  usually  would  go  on  Friday  and  Saturday. 


62 


LaBerge:  Where  would  they  be  held? 

Kay:  Either  up  here  in  the  north,  or  in  Los  Angeles. 

LaBerge:  So  San  Francisco? 

Kay:  San  Francisco  or  Los  Angeles. 

LaBerge:   So  the  county  and  the  state  ones  were  kind  of  interrelated  in 
some  way? 

Kay:      Very  well,  very  much  so,  yes. 
American  Medical  Association 


LaBerge:   And  what  about  the  AMA  [American  Medical  Association]? 

Kay:      The  AMA  is- -the  California  Medical  Association  had  so  many 
delegates  going  to  AMA,  and  I  became  a- - 

LaBerge:   It  says  alternate  delegate. 

Kay:       --alternate  delegate  from  the  California  Medical  Association  to 
the  AMA .   And  the  AMA  you  know  about  I ' m  sure . 

LaBerge:   Yes. 

Kay:      It's  the  medical  body  of  the  United  States.   Used  to  have  a  big 
membership;  practically  every  doctor.   Today  they  don't  have  all 
of  them.   There  are  all  kinds  of  suborganizations- -American 
College  of  Surgeons,  American  College  of  This  and  American 
College  of  That.   But  the  AMA  is  still  the  top  one.   I  became  a 
delegate,  I  forgot  when. 

LaBerge:   It  says  1964. 

Kay:       I  became  a  delegate. 

LaBerge:   Or  alternate  delegate. 

Kay:      And  then  the  delegate,  I  guess,  was  the  last  four  years  I  was 
there . 

LaBerge:   What  kinds  of  issues  came  up  in  those  years  that--? 


63 


Kay: 


LaBerge : 
Kay: 


Well,  during  that  ' 64  time  came  up  Medicare  and  we  were  very 
opposed  to  it.   We  took  up  different  items,  laws- - [interruption] 
Resolutions  about  how  to  handle  this  problem  or  that  problem- - 
smoking,  education,  schools,  medical  schools,  new  cases  —  it  was  a 
combination  of  everything. 

Was  one  of  the  issues  Medi-Cal  or  Medicaid? 


No.   Not  when  I  was  in  there, 
came  towards  the  end. 


That  came  later.   1  guess  that 


American  Board  of  Urology 


LaBerge:   While  you  were  belonging  to  those  groups,  were  you  also  a  member 
of  the  American  Board  of  Urology  and--? 

Kay:  I  was  on  the  American  Board;  I  became  a  member  of  it  by  taking  an 
examination  in  '47,  I  think  it  was.  That  was  an  experience.  You 
had  to  have  fifty  cases,  twenty-five  major  and  twenty-five  minor, 
write  up  the  history,  present  it  to  them,  and  then  you  went  back 
to  Chicago  for  an  oral  examination,  and  then  they  decided  whether 
to  make  you  a  member  of  the  American  Board. 

LaBerge:   So  this  was  after  the  war? 

Kay:      After  the  war,  '47.   I  had  all  these  cases  typed  up,  had  them 

review  them,  dictated  them  to  somebody.   And  then  went  back,  and 
spent  three  days  in  Chicago.   One  day  was  spent  in  pathology 
examination,  one  day  in  oral  examination,  and  one  day  just 
getting  out  of  there. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  find  out  right  away  whether  you  passed  or  not? 

Kay:  Yes.  Well,  they  didn't  say  you  passed,  but  anybody  that  was  on 
the  borderline  was  called  back  for  a  second  examination,  so  you 
automatically  knew. 

LaBerge:   You  didn't  have  to  do  this  in  order  to  practice,  right? 

Kay:      No,  I  could  practice  without  that,  but  that  helped  my  identifying 
myself  as  a  urologist.   If  you  don't  have  your  board,  you  have 
trouble  getting  positions  at  hospitals,  Medicare  patients  etc. 


64 


American  and  International  College  of  Surgeons 


LaBerge:   What  about  the  American  College  of  Surgeons  and  the  International 
College  of  Surgeons?   Is  that  the  same  kind  of  thing? 

Kay:      No,  two  different  things,  joined  the  American  College- -became  a 
fellow  of  the  American  College  of  Surgeons.   I  became  a  fellow 
[looking  at  wall]  it's  right  here. 

LaBerge:   Okay,  1947. 

Kay:      Yes. 

LaBerge:   So  did  you  have  to  make  application--? 

Kay:      You  make  application  and  present  why  you  should  be  a  member  of 
it,  and  then  they  accept  you.   American  College  of  Surgeons  was 
sort  of  an  adjunct  to  the  American  Medical  Association  that 
specialized  on  people  doing  surgery.   And  in  urology,  you  do 
surgery.   And  then,  I  got  interested  in  the  International  College 
of  Surgeons,  if  you  went  overseas  or  anything,  they  were 
connected  with  overseas  associations.   Very  good  thing.   I  was  on 
their  board  for  about  a  year. 

LaBerge:   Okay,  because  it  says  on  here  that  you  were  the  past  regent. 
Kay:      Yes,  that's  the  regent  for  this  area. 

LaBerge:   Would  you  get  new  information  from  other  countries,  what  other 
people  were  doing? 

Kay:      That's  right,  from  the  International  College  of  Surgeons.   Today, 
the  American  College  of  Surgeons  has  become  more  international, 
so  I  haven't  heard  much  about  the  International  College  of 
Surgeons . 


Uroloeical  Associations:  Northern  California.  Western  Section. 
American 


LaBerge:   Well,  then  we  have  these  different  urological- -we've  got  Northern 
California  Urological,  Western  Section,  and  American. 

Kay:      All  right.   Northern  California  Urological  was  established  in 

Oakland.   For  about  ten  years,  the  urologists  in  Oakland  used  to 
meet  every  three  months  and  invite  people  from  San  Francisco,  and 


65 


they  would  invite  people  from  Sacramento  to  come  and  join  with 
us.   Interesting  thing,  I  guess  I  can  say  it,  if  a  program  was 
put  on  by  the  University  of  California,  Stanford  people  didn't 
go.   See,  Stanford  was  in  San  Francisco.   If  Stanford  put  on  a 
program,  UC  people  didn't  go.   We  would  go  to  both.   So  we 
decided  to  have  the  meetings  over  here,  we  invited  them.   And 
that's  when  we  started  the  Northern  California  Urological 
Society. 

LaBerge:  Were  you  one  of  the  founding  members? 

Kay:  I  guess  so,  yes.   And  eventually  I  became  president  of  that. 

LaBerge:  Well,  it  says  president,  1962. 

Kay:  That's  right.   So  it  started  about,  I'd  say  around  '58. 

LaBerge:  And  I  assume  the  purpose  of  that  was  to  keep  up  on  what  was  new? 

Kay:      What  was  happening  in  the  area  here,  and  what  was  new  in  the 

area.   It  is  still  going,  and  what  we  do  there  is  if  people  bring 
interesting  x-ray  cases  there,  for  an  hour  they  have  what  they 
call  an  x-ray  conference.   Then  they  usually  have  an  outstanding 
speaker,  and  then  they  have  dinner.   It's  usually  held  in  San 
Francisco.   And  it  became  very  active  because  Stanford  and 
California  people  were  taking  part  in  it,  and  became  members  of 
it.   It  was  sort  of  bringing  everybody  together. 

LaBerge:   It  sounds  like  you  were  instrumental  in  getting  the  group 
together,  and  not  keeping  them  so  separate. 

Kay:      We  did. 

LaBerge:   Now,  it's  interesting- -they  didn't  identify  you  as  being  part  of 
the  University  of  California? 

Kay :  No . 

LaBerge:  You  were  just  from  Oakland. 

Kay:  Oakland.   Oakland  was  a  different  area. 

LaBerge:  Do  you  still  go  to  those  meetings,  or  not? 

Kay:       I  haven't  been--I  get  invited  every  —  they  meet  every  three 

months.   In  fact,  there's  one  this  season,  which  is  the  one  in 
March.   I  don't  know  whether  I'll  go  there  or  not.   It's  too  much 
trouble  to  go  over  there.   I  haven't  been  there  for  a  couple  of 
years,  but  I  used  to  go. 


66 


LaBerge:   And  what  about  the  American  Urological  Association?   Is  that 

something  that  you  join  just  by  being  a  urologist,  or  is  it--? 

Kay:      You  can,  but  usually  it's  because  you're  a  member  of  the  Western 
Section.   The  Western  Section  is  the  eleven  Western  states.   They 
meet  once  a  year  presenting  cases,  all  kinds  of  cases, 
interesting  cases.   When  I  first  started,  it  was  presented  by 
individual  practitioners.   The  last  few  years  it's  been  taken 
over  by  either  southern  California  medical  schools  or  San 
Francisco  medical  schools.   They  sort  of  run  a  scientific 
program. 

In  the  Western  Section,  I  went  to  the  American  Urological 
Association  about  the  same  time.   I  would  go  to  the  meetings  of 
the  American  Urological,  which  are  held  all  over  the  country. 
And  then  in- -I  forgot  the  date  there --when  I  became  a  member  of 
the  board- - 

LaBerge:   It  doesn't  say  board,  but  it  says  president,  1970. 

Kay:      That's  of  the  Western  Section.   But  I  became  a  member  of  the 

American  Urological  Board  of  Directors,  I  think,  in  '77--I  don't 
know  if  it's  down  there. 

LaBerge:   It  isn't  down  there. 

Kay:      I  was  on  there  just  for  two  years,  I  think  it  was  '77  to  '79.  I 
was  out  of  practice  at  the  time,  and  there  were  concerns  about 
that,  because  I  wasn't  practicing  medicine,  wasn't  practicing 
urology. 

LaBerge:  But  then  you  were  president  of  the  Western  Section  in  1970. 

Kay:  President  of  Western  Section,  yes. 

LaBerge:  So  what  did  that  involve? 

Kay:  That  involved  running  a  convention. 

LaBerge:  And  also  keeping  up  correspondence  and  things  like  that? 

Kay:      Correspondence  with  different  people,  yes.   The  offices  were  in 
Los  Angeles,  so  a  lot  of  stuff  came  out  of  L.A.  and  the  house 
office  of  the  A.U.A.  in  Baltimore. 

LaBerge:   It  sounds  like  you  almost  needed  a  full-time  staff  to  keep  up 
with  all  these  board  associations  you  were  on. 

Kay:      Yes.   I  had  a  very  efficient  secretary  here  who  took  care  of  it. 


67 


LaBerge:   What  was  her  name? 

Kay:      Helen  Gile.   She  was  with  me  for  twenty-  three  years.   She  worked 
with  me  for  twenty-  three  years. 

LaBerge:   Because  I  imagine  you  had  to  write  speeches  and  articles  and-- 

Kay:      Well,  I  was  supposed  to  get  help  from  the  --what  do  you  call  him-- 
well,  the  executive  director.   Western  Section  was  the,  I  guess 
executive  director,  to  help  you  with  the  California  Medical 
Association-  - 


Kay:      You  didn't  interview  him,  did  you? 

LaBerge:  We  were  talking  about  Hap  Hassard--!  want  to  get  this  on  tape.  I 
didn't,  but  Malca  Chall  in  our  office  has  interviewed  him  just  in 
the  past  year. 

Kay:      I  know,  because  they  presented  it  at  the  last  class  reunion.   He 
came  over.   I  hadn't  seen  him  in  maybe  five  years,  and  he  had 
aged  so  much  I  didn't  recognize  him. 

LaBerge:   Was  he  in  your  class? 

Kay:      Yes. 

LaBerge:   What  was  he  involved  in? 

Kay:      He  was  the  lawyer  and  then  secretary  of  the  California  Medical 
Association.   Quite  a  nationally  known  person. 

LaBerge:   So  anyway,  all  those  kinds  of  people  helped  you-- 
Kay:      Helped  me  with  the  things,  yes. 

LaBerge:   Tell  me,  how  did  you  find  the  time  to  do  all  of  these  things 
besides  your  practice  and  your  family? 

Kay:      I  just--during  the  whole  time,  my  practice  never  suffered.   If  I 
had  to  turn  a  patient  over  to  another  physician,  I  did. 
Otherwise,  I  worked  all  of  it,  figured  it  out. 

LaBerge:   Because  it  involved  a  lot  of  traveling,  too.   Did  your  wife 
usually  go  with  you? 

Kay:  She  only  went  to  the  annual  meetings.  She  didn't  go  to  the  other 
meetings.  There  was  an  organization  called  the  Public  Health 


68 


LaBerge: 
Kay: 


League  of  California,  which  was  a  big  organization  and  it  went 
out  of  existence  except  for  the  Board  of  Eight.   I  was  on  that, 
'71,  quit  it  about  three  years  ago.   We  had  money,  we  turned  it 
over  to  the  University  of  California  Medical  School.   That  was 
for  lobbying  purposes  in  the  state  capital.   Which  was  an 
interesting  sidelight. 

Was  that  the  only  group  that  you  belonged  to  that  did  lobbying? 

Well,  that  and  the  ACCLU  [American  College  of  Clinical 
Urologists].   That  was  national,  urology,  and  this  was  state 
medicine . 


Testifying  Before  the  Congressional  Committee.  1974 


LaBerge:   So  why  don't  we  talk  about  some  of  the  lobbying,  including- -we 
could  start  with  the  fact  that  you  presented  a  speech  to  the 
Congress . 

Kay:      We  could  do  that  if  you  want  to,  but  that  was  when  I  was 

president  of  the  ACCLU.   We  got  interested  in  a  couple  of  cases 
where  longtime  costs  to  people  with  serious  illnesses,  congenital 
illnesses,  would  cost  money  and  people  were  running  out  of  money. 
We  took  that  on  to  see  if  we  could  get  some  help  for  them,  and 
that's  what  I  lobbied  for. 

LaBerge:   Some  federal  monies  for? 

Kay:      Yes.   So  it ' s- -actually  used  the  word  "universal  health 

insurance,"  which  I  wonder  about  now,  but  anyway,  help  these 
people  that  had  insurances  that  ran  out.   They  were  going  to  have 
to  be  taken  care  of  forever.   Very  difficult. 

LaBerge:   So  I  just  want  to  say  for  the  tape  that  I'm  holding  in  my  hand  a 
speech  that  Dr.  Kay  gave  on  May  23,  1974,  before  the  Committee  on 
Ways  and  Means,  United  States  House  of  Representatives.   And  it 
says,  "Regarding  national  health  insurance." 

Kay:      Is  that  of  interest? 

LaBerge:   Really  interesting.   Why  don't  you  tell  me  a  little  bit  about 

that  experience  of  appearing  before  the  Ways  and  Means  Committee? 

Kay:      Well,  it  was  interesting  in  that  we  had  to  get  them  to  print  up 
the  speech  the  day  before,  and  I  was  helped  with  that  by  the 


69 


secretary  of  the  association.   And  then  we  presented  it  to  them 
twenty- four  hours  before  you  appear.   And  then- - 

LaBerge:   Then  did  they  have  it  printed  up  after  you  presented--? 

Kay:      And  then  my  wife  was  with  me  at  that  time.   We  went  to  the  House 
to  the  meeting  room.   I  was  about  the  fourth  person  to  appear. 
Started  talking  about  eleven- thirty.   As  I  finished,  they  didn't 
ask  questions,  because  it  was  lunch  time.   That  was  the  end  of 

it.  [laughter] 

LaBerge:   Were  you  relieved? 

Kay:      Yes.   But  I  was  all  ready  to  answer  questions.   I  had  a  past 

president  with  me,  all  ready,  too.   You  sit  at  a  table,  just  as 
you  see  on  television.   They  sit  up  ahead  of  you.   You  read  to 
them.   That  was  it.   Lunch  came  along,  and  they  left. 

LaBerge:   Who  were  some  of  the  representatives? 

Kay:      I'm  trying  to  think.   The  main  guy- -I'm  trying  to  bring  back  his 
name.   The  chairman  of  the  Ways  and  Means  Committee  then- -I  think 
he  became  an  alcoholic.   Got  in  trouble  with  alcohol  after  being 
the  head  of  it  for  some  twenty  years. 

LaBerge:   Was  it  one  of  those  Southern  representatives? 

Kay:      Yes. 

LaBerge:   Possibly  Wilbur  Mills? 

Kay:      Representative,  yes.   And  I  can't  think  of  the  other  people. 
Nobody  outstanding. 

LaBerge:   Besides  the  fact  they  didn't  question  you;  otherwise,  you  might 
have  remembered  them. 

Kay:      I  would  have  remembered  them.   I  just  gave  my  speech,  and  then 
they  adjourned  for  lunch  and  didn't  ask  me  to  come  back. 

LaBerge:   Who  else  gave  a  speech  that  day? 

Kay:      I  don't  know  who  the  others  were,  but  I  was  the  only  one  from 
urology. 

LaBerge:   But  the  other  people  were  also  physicians? 

Kay:      The  other  people  presenting  speeches?   No.   The  others  had  other 
problems  that  they  were  presenting  to  them. 


70 


LaBerge:   So  it  didn't  have  anything  to  do  with  health  insurance. 

Kay:      No.   I  was  the  only  one  doing  it,  because  they  handled  health 
insurance,  Ways  and  Means  Committee. 

LaBerge:   So  what  came  of  this?  Nothing? 

Kay:      Absolutely  nothing.   Not  even  a  thank  you. 


Thoughts  on  Health  Insurance 


LaBerge:   Since  we're  talking  about  that,  tell  me  your  thoughts  on  health 
insurance  today,  and  what  is  happening. 

Kay:      Well,  health  insurance  today,  same  thing- -universal  health,  but  I 
don't  think  government  should  be  involved  in  it  the  way  they're 
going  to  be .   I  think  the  quality  of  medicine  is  going  to  go 
down,  and  we're  going  to  have  a  lot  less  doctors  in  medical  care 
and  cases  where  it  will  be  very  poor.   If  [President  William] 
Clinton  has  all  of  his  ideas. 

An  example- -this  is  just  one  case  that  would  come  out  of  the 
recommendations,  cystoscopy,  which  is  one  examination  we  do. 
We've  been  doing  it  originally  in  our  office,  and  they  decided  it 
was  too  expensive,  so  then  they  went  to  a  hospital,  and  then  they 
went  to  these  surgical  centers.   Came  out  yesterday,  surgical 
centers  can  no  longer  do  their  cystoscopies ,  either  in  your 
office  or  the  hospital.   Which  is  about  double  the  cost  of  what 
the  surgical  centers  charge.   These  sort  of  things  aggravate  you 
in  a  way. 

And  then  even  the  regulations  and  bureaucracies  which  are 
going  to  be  established  to  run  this  thing,  it's  going  to  cost  so 
much  money.   I  think  it's  absolutely  wrong.   I  think  we  have  to 
look- -if  they  want  to  see  how  wrong  it  is,  look  at  the  Canadian 
system,  which  is  broke,  and  the  English  system,  which  is  broke. 
When  you  think  you'd  have  to  wait  six  months  for  a  surgical 
procedure  which  today  you  can  get  the  next  day  or  two,  that  is 
not  good  on  the  mentality  or  on  the  health,  and  as  a  result,  many 
cases  may  be  lost,  malignancies  developing,  waiting  six  months 
for  treatment  is  not  good.   Pardon  me. 


LaBerge:   No,  I  want  to  hear  exactly  what  you  have  to  say. 
suggestion  be? 


What  would  your 


71 


Kay: 


LaBerge 
Kay: 


LaBerge : 
Kay: 


LaBerge : 
Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 


My  suggestion  would  be  less  government  control.   I  think  the 
insurance  companies,  if  they  wanted  to,  could  cover  everybody 
without  any  difficulty.   Having  been  on  the  board  of  Blue  Cross 
and  knowing  at  that  time  what  they  were  making,  they  could  have 
covered  a  lot  more  conditions.   I  think  it's  greed  of  money  for 
people- -for  insurance  companies.   I  shouldn't  say  greed,  but--. 

When  you  were  running  your  practice,  when  you  first  started,  was 
there  health  insurance  at  all? 

Well,  there  was  insurance,  but  nothing  like  it  is  today.   We 
didn't  have- -people  paid  their  bills.   We  had  to  collect  bills 
from  people,  very  little  to  do  with  insurance.   If  you  had 
insurance  it  was  Social  Security- -Medicare  and  Medicaid.   I  had 
to  hire  a  special  person  just  to  take  care  of  that.   That's  where 
the  cost  in  medicine  has  gone,  part  of  it.   The  paperwork  is 
tremendous.   The  hospitals  are  not  being  regulated  right.   The 
hospitals  are  top-heavy  with  executives,  and  I  feel  that  they 
should  be  controlled  better  than  they  are.   When  you  think  an 
aspirin  costs  five  dollars. 

You  mean  when  you're  a  hospital  patient  and  you  get  an  aspirin- - 
right. 

For  a  while,  and  this  is  some  of  the  doings  of  the  different 
organizations  I've  belonged  to,  we  requested  and  got  that,  when  a 
patient  went  to  the  hospital,  they  were  given  a  bill  right  then, 
that  showed  everything  that  was  done.   Today,  they  refuse  to  give 
you  that  bill. 


So  you  never 


LaBerge 


Why? 

Well,  they  say  it  isn't  ready  to  give  it  to  you. 
see  what's  actually  spent. 

So  you  never  even  get  it  in  the  mail? 

We  used  to  get  a  copy  of  everything  and  you  could  check  on  it.   I 
remember  one  time  I  ordered  one  thing  and  they  charged  the 
patient  for  ten  of  them.   You  go  back  and  tell  them,  show  them 
where  they  were  wrong.   This  doesn't  occur  today.   And  that's  one 
of  the  problems  of  medicine,  as  far  as  I'm  concerned. 

In  the  offices,  every  effort  is  made  to  get  as  much  out  of 
the  insurance  companies  and  Social  Security  and  all  those  things, 
and  Medicare,  to  make  up  for  these  differences,  regulations. 

When  you  were  on  the  staffs  of  different  hospitals,  was  there 
anything- -did  you  have  a  say  in  any  of  that,  how--? 


72 


Kay:      Well,  we  did  have  a  say.   We  had  a  say  about  giving  the  patients 
or  not  giving  them  medications,  but  we  tried  a  lot  of  things. 
But  the  administrators  were  pretty  strong.   I'm  trying  to  think- - 
the  Hill-Burton  Act  came  out.   It's  an  old  act.   They  were  giving 
money  to  hospitals  for  enlargement  and  things  like  that.   I  had 
an  idea,  and  I  went  to  all  the  three  hospital  boards  and 
presented  it,  that  they  buy  an  area  up  on  the  hill  [Pill  Hill  in 
Oakland]  and  set  up  a  central  laboratory,  central  x-ray,  central 
emergency.   Each  hospital  board  turned  it  down,  because  it  would 
take  away  from  them.   But  it  would  have  saved  a  lot  of  money.   I 
found  out  afterwards- -I  was  furious  about  that --they  don't  want 
to  save  money. 

LaBerge:   Was  this  the  three  hospitals  that  are  on  the  hill? 

Kay:      Yes.   That  was  central  everything,  just  one.   Hill-Burton  would 
have  built  it.   I  went  to  those  three  boards  and  presented  it. 
They  didn't  want  to  lose  their  own  identity,  because  it  would 
mean  that  they  wouldn't  have  these  departments,  which  they  could 
make  so  much  money  off  of.   And  their  own  pharmacy- -they  wanted 
pharmacies.   In  other  words,  it  would  be  a  central  building  to 
those  three  hospitals.   Now  all  three  hospitals  are  together. 

LaBerge:   Now  it's  happening  by-- 

Kay:      I  guess-- 

LaBerge:   Because  they  couldn't  survive  alone,  I  guess.   Is  that  right? 

Kay:      That's  right.   Peralta  went  out,  Providence- -Providence  could 
have,  because  they  have  a  strong  backing.   They  saw  the 
competitors  joining,  and  they  joined.   And  now  it's  confusion  on 
the  hill  [now  called  Summit  Medical  Center] . 

LaBerge:   Have  you  gotten  involved  at  all  in  Summit  Medical  Center,  how 
that's  come  about  or  not? 

Kay:      I  was  already  out  of  practice. 

LaBerge:   Any  other  incidents  like  that,  where  you  had  an  idea,  where  you 
saw  something  that  could  be  done,  and--? 

Kay:      No,  I  guess  that  was  the  best  one  to  give  as  an  example.   Where 
are  we  now? 

LaBerge:   We're  just  sort  of  in  these  professional  associations,  and  we 

haven't  talked  about  the  Blue  Cross  board  yet,  which  isn't  really 
a  professional,  so--.  And  we've  mentioned  every  one  here  so  far, 
all  having  to  do  with  medicine. 


73 


Kay:      All  right. 

LaBerge:   But  you  might  have  something  else  to  say,  like  about  being 
president  of  any  of  these  boards,  or  any  more  lobbying  type 
things . 

Kay:      No,  I  have  nothing.   They  were  interesting;  we  traveled  all  over 
the  country  for  them.   Hawaii.   Conventions  in  Hawaii, 
conventions  in  New  York,  conventions  in  Florida,  conventions  in 
Chicago,  New  Orleans,  St.  Louis. 

LaBerge:   And  Mrs.  Kay  went  along  with  you?  Would  you  make  a  trip  out  of 
that? 

Kay:      We  made  a  trip  out  of  it.   Usually,  we  would  take  a  few  days 

afterwards.   I  would  pay  the  organizations  and  the  hotels  so  I 
took  her  along. 


V  SIDELIGHTS  TO  MEDICAL  PRACTICE  AND  COMMUNITY  SERVICE 


Blue  Cross  Board 


LaBerge:   How  about,  why  don't  you  tell  me  about  being  on  the  Blue  Cross 
board,  and  how  you  were  invited- - 

Kay:      Well,  I  was  invited  on  to  it  by  a  colleague  who  was  interested  in 
it.   We  used  to  meet  every  month.   It  was  a  very  interesting 
thing.   There  were  five  doctors  and  ten  businessmen,  I  was  three 
years  on  the  board.   Blue  Cross  was  established  by  the  insurance 
company,  nonprofit  insurance  company.   Originally,  it  was 
established  just  for  hospitals.   Toward  the  end,  it  became 
involved  with  doctors.   It  was  started  in  1936  here  in  Oakland  by 
a  doctor  who  built  up  quite  an  organization.   Today  they're 
broke. 

We  had  several --we  had  to  keep  a  reserve  in  case  there  were 
any  catastrophes.   But  in  addition  to  that,  they  only  had  a  7  to 
9  percent  overhead.   As  a  result,  they  were  able  to  save  a  lot  of 
money,  had  a  lot  of  property.   That  was  good  reserve.   The 
president  then,  after  I  quit,  the  president  decided  that  the 
executive  director  was  removed,  or  the  CEO.   They  have  a  new  man 
who  has  different  ideas.   They've  lost  a  lot  of  property.   We  had 
the  building  downtown,  but  they  moved  to  the  headquarters  to  Los 
Angeles . 

LaBerge:   Building  downtown  Oakland  or  San  Francisco? 
Kay:      Oakland.   It  was  all  here  in  Oakland. 
LaBerge:   So  this  was  the  national  headquarters,  then? 

Kay:      Yes.   Well,  Blue  Cross  of  California.   There's  Blue  Cross  of 
every  state,  and  a  national  headquarters  that's  back  East 
someplace.   Every  state  has  a  Blue  Cross,  but  it  started  here  in 
California.   Okay? 


75 


LaBerge:   Okay.   And  what  was  the  relationship  between  Blue  Cross  and  Blue 
Shield? 

Kay:      Now,  Blue  Shield  was  an  outgrowth  of  the  California  Medical 

Association.   They  were  primarily  for  doctors,  and  then  they  went 
to  hospitals.   They  were  originally  sort  of  an  arm  of  the 
California  Medical  Association.   I  got  into  trouble,  because  I 
didn't  spend  much  time  on  them.   When  I  was  chairman  of  the 
council,  I  didn't  look  up  to  them.   So  I  never  got  along  with 
them.   I  didn't  feel  that  they  were  doing  things  quite  right.   So 
I  never  got  along  with  Blue  Shield.   Actually,  I  was  on  the  board 
of  Blue  Cross.   In  many  states,  Blue  Cross  and  Blue  Shield  are 
together. 

LaBerge:   That's  what  I  thought. 

Kay:      But  in  California,  they're  separate.   They  wanted  to  make  it 

together,  and  they  came  to  us .   I  remember  making  a  speech,  and  I 
said,  "You  know,  you're  like  a  rowboat  coming  to  a  big  ship, 
trying  to  equal  and  be  a  big  ship.   We're  the  bigger  one.   We 
don't  have  to  think  about  it  all."   So  when  I  said  it,  I  got  a 
phone  call  the  next  day,  "Please  come  over  to  Blue  Shield  as  our 
guest,  we  want  you  to  see  everything."   I  got  the  royal 
treatment,  showed  me  everything. 

LaBerge:   But  they're  still  separate,  is  that  correct? 

Kay:      Yes.   Separate  in  California.   Nationally,  they're  together. 

LaBerge:   Because  I  remember  growing  up,  hearing  them  together- -Blue 
Cross/Blue  Shield,  like  it  was  one  thing. 

Kay:      Yes.   But  that  wasn't  in  California.   See,  originally  there  were 
Blue  Shield  physicians  who  were  not  a  part  of  the  hospital 
insurance . 

LaBerge:   What  didn't  you  like  that  they  were  doing? 

Kay:      Oh,  they  were  doing  a  lot  of  funny  things.   For  example,  they 
were  giving  out  lists  of  doctors  who  weren't  their  members, 
making  statements.   They  were  cutting  down  on  a  lot  of  things 
that  they  should  not  have  done.  They  started  cutting  down  on 
payments . 

LaBerge:   For  certain  procedures? 

Kay:      Yes.   Had  to  wait  a  long  time  to  get  money  from  them.   Then  they 
started  categorizing  procedures,  telling  you  what  you  could 
charge . 


76 


LaBerge:   So  I  take  it  you  must  have  had  patients  who  did  have  Blue  Shield? 
Kay:      Yes. 

LaBerge :   What  was  the  issue  or  the  issues  when  you  were  a  member  of  the 
Blue  Cross  board,  or  weren't  there  any  major  issues?   It  just 
happened  that  it  kind  of  fell  apart  later? 

Kay:      Fell  apart  after  changing  management.   We  had  to  have  a  reserve 

to  make  investments.   And  we  did.   Issues  of  how  much  fees  should 
be,  how  much  we  had  to  pay  out.   For  example,  January  and 
February  and  March  were  outgoing  more  than  we  ever  got  in.   Those 
are  sick  months.   The  rest  of  the  year  wasn't  too  bad. 


Alameda  County  Institutions  Commissions^ 


LaBerge:   We're  going  to  talk  about  the  Alameda  County  Institutions 
Commission. 

Kay:      The  Alameda  County  Institutions  Commission  was  a  commission 

appointed  by  the  county  board  of  supervisors,  and  the  primary 
thing  was  running  health  establishments  under  Alameda  County. 
For  example,  all  the  clinics,  Highland  Hospital,  Fairmount 
Hospital.   It  consisted  of  eleven  members  in  the  community.   I 
think  it  was  five  doctors  and  members  of  the  community.   We  would 
meet  at  least  once  a  month.   We  ran  the  hospitals.   Then  we  had  a 
member  of  the  board  of  supervisors  on  there  with  us,  and  we 
controlled  the  clinics  and  everything. 

LaBerge:  Are  there  clinics  outside  of  those  hospitals? 

Kay:  Yes,  there  are  clinics  throughout  Alameda  County.   Free  clinics. 

LaBerge:  Oh,  like  the  Berkeley  Free  Clinic? 

Kay:  Yes. 

LaBerge:   I  didn't  realize  there  was  anything,  for  instance,  besides  the 
Berkeley  Free  Clinic. 

Kay:      There's  one  in  Oakland,  in  east  Oakland,  one  in  San  Leandro.   And 
it  was  a  great  group,  we  had  a  lot  of  problems  there.   One  of  the 
greatest  problems  was  collecting  money  from  people  who  used  the 
hospital  and  were  billed  and  never  paid.   We  would  find  that 
there  was  about  $1  million  a  month  that  wasn't  collected.   We 


77 


recommended  that  they  put  the  collection,  they  have  a  cashier  and 
have  people  pay  as  they  left,  but  the  board  didn't  approve  it. 
See,  we  were- -we  made  suggestions  and  recommendations,  and  they 
had  to  be  passed  by  the  board  of  supervisors .   That  was  quite  a 
deal. 

And  then  I  guess  I  was  on  that  for  around  eleven  years. 
Then  the  board  of  supervisors  decided  to  do  away  with  the 
commission,  they  would  be  the  ones  who  ran  everything. 

LaBerge:  And  it  went  downhill? 

Kay:  [motioning  downhill] 

LaBerge:  Because  the  county  was  picking  up  the  tab  for  all  that? 

Kay:  Yes. 

LaBerge:  How  were  you  appointed  to  the  board? 

Kay:  By  a  county  supervisor.   It  was  appointed  by  county  supervisors. 

LaBerge:   For  instance,  would  he  have  chosen  you  because  you  were  active  in 
the  medical  association? 

Kay:      Yes.   My  associations  with  others,  and  also  I  knew  him. 
LaBerge:   What  was  his  name? 

Kay:      From  Alameda.   He  was  on  the  board  for  a  long  time.   I  can  see 
him,  but  I  can't  get  the  name  to  you. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  serve  with  any  other  interesting  people? 

Kay:      They  were  all  interesting.   I  can't  remember  their  names;  there 
were  a  couple  of  doctors,  but  I  can't  remember  their  names.   But 
the  other  people,  one  was  Ben  Aiken. 

LaBerge:   I've  heard  that  name. 

Kay:      He  was  on  the  board.   Paul  Sampson  was  a  doctor  who  was  on  that. 
I  can  see  him,  but  I  can't  think  of  the  name  of  this  guy. 

LaBerge:   That's  fine. 
Kay:      Bates. 
LaBerge:   Tom  Bates? 


78 


Kay:      Tom  Bates  was  on  it.   He  never  cane;  he  sent  his  assistant.   He 
cane  to  a  couple  of  neetings,  but  he  sent  his  assistant  the  rest 
of  the  tines.   With  long  hair. 


Alameda  County  Mental  Health  Commission 


LaBerge:   What  about  the  Alaneda  County  Mental  Health  Commission? 

Kay:      That  was  just  a  sideline.   That  was  about  every  three  months,  one 
meeting.   I  was  on  there  for  about  two  years.   That  cane  as  a 
result  of  my  being  on  the  board  of  Alameda  County  Institutions 
Commission. 

LaBerge:   What  kind  of  things  did  you  do  on  that? 

Kay:      They  discussed- -a  lot  of  discussion  about  mental  health,  about 
change  in  practice,  needing  more  hospital  beds.   The  county  did 
not  come  through  and  the  governor  changed  his  mind. 

LaBerge:   Meaning  Governor  [Ronald]  Reagan? 

Kay:      Yes.   That  was  his  idea.   How  to  take  care  of  them.   Making 
arrangements  for  them  through  the  county  funds. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  encounter  in  your  practice,  people  who  needed  mental 
help? 

Kay:      No.   Never  in  my  practice.   I  was  just  on  this  committee.   I  was 
on  it  a  couple  of  years.   I'm  trying  to  think  of  the  name  of  the 
person  on  the  board  there,  who  was  mayor  of  Hayward.   And  now 
there's  another  member  who  is  on  the  board  of  supervisors  now, 
which  is  very  interesting.   She  served.   There  were  about  three 
men  and  about  five  women.   All  right?  That  was  a  minor  thing. 


Emergency  Medical  Services  for  Alameda  and  Contra  Costa  Counties 


LaBerge:   Okay,  that  was  a  minor  thing.   What  about,  then,  the  Emergency 
Medical  Services  for  Alameda  and  Contra  Costa  Counties? 

Kay:      Well,  that's  why  I  got  this  whole  thing  together  [resume].   Is 
there  a  date  on  it? 


79 


LaBerge:   No,  but  you  said  it  was  after  the  date  of  this  resume,  which  was 
1982.   So  after  1982,  I'm  guessing? 

Kay:      Earlier  than  that.   It  was  about  '79.   It  was  a  joint  powers 

commission  formed  by  Alameda  and  Contra  Costa  Counties,  federally 
financed  every  year  to  work  out  a  two-county  emergency  service, 
emergency  medical  service.   I  was  the  medical  director  for  it. 

LaBerge:   Was  this  after  you  retired? 

Kay:      Yes.   And  we  first  met,  the  first  year  we  were  with  Alameda 

County  out  at  Fairmount  [Hospital],  had  an  office.   I  had  one 
assistant,  one  nurse  who  was  my  assistant.   And  then  we  got 
bigger.   We  got  a  new  director- -the  fellow  that  was  directing  was 
part-time  directing  Alameda  County.   A  guy  came  in  from 
Pennsylvania,  and  he  was  there  two  years,  and  we  ran  out  of 
money.   But  we  established  principles  and  fundamentals  for  the 
emergency  medicine  for  the  two  counties.   And  they  have  followed 
them  ever  since. 

That  was  my  first  real  experience  with  the  federal 
bureaucracy.   How  to  write  reports  to  get  money,  whether  you  need 
it  or  not. 

LaBerge:   You  mean  if  you  write  it  correctly  and  you  don't  need  it,  you  can 
still  get  it? 

Kay:      Yes.   The  guy  that  was  the  head  of  this  thing  was  very  efficient 
at  that. 

LaBerge:   What  was  his  name? 

Kay:      I  forget.   I  took  him  out  of  my  mind,  I  was  so  mad  at  him.   At 
the  very  end,  I  pushed--. 

[tape  interruption] 

Kay:      Had  to  do  with  disbandment  of  this  organization  because  of  this 
fellow,  I'll  think  of  his  name.   Because  he  would  ask  me 
something,  and  I  would  disagree  with  him,  and  he  would  go  over  my 
head  and  do  it  anyway.   He  would  put  in  a  request,  "Approved  by 
the  Alameda -Contra  Costa  County  Medical  Association."  Had  to  get 
an  endorsement  from  them.   He  wrote  up  the  paper  to  get  the 
money,  and  put  in  that  he  had  had  approval,  but  I  knew  he  hadn't. 

He  irritated  me,  so  I  went  out  to  the  county  one  night  and  I 
told  them  not  to  approve  it.   They  didn't  get  the  approval  from 
the  medical  association  and  didn't  get  any  more  money.   He  worked 
out- -had  an  office,  had  an  elaborate  office  in  the  Kaiser 


80 


building  down  there- -the  MacArthur/Broadway  building.   He  had  a 
very  nice  suite  of  offices  there,  everything  was  paid  for.   He 
had  [counting]  five  people  working  in  there.   He  hired  his 
girlfriend  as  a  secretary,  which  was  not  right,  because  he  was 
supposed  to  open  it  up  for  everybody.   I  called  attention  to  it 
after  a  year,  so  they  opened  it  up. 

But  this  was  the  sort  of  thing  that  bothered  me .   His 
American  Express  card  was  paid  for  out  of  this,  and  he  took 
vacations  and  had  the  thing  paid  for.   He's  now  down  in  Ventura 
County,  I'm  trying  to  think  of  his  name.   That's  my  Emergency 
Medical  Service.   I'm  still  on  the  Emergency  Medical  Committee 
for  the  county.   They  call  it  an  overall  committee,  and  it's  sort 
of  the  committee  to  approve  everything.   I'm  still  on  that;  I 
don't  know  how  much  longer  I'll  be  on  it. 

LaBerge :   How  often  do  you  meet? 

Kay:      Every  three  months.   I've  missed  the  last  two  meetings. 

LaBerge:   For  instance,  do  you  send  out  these  principles  to  each  hospital 
in  the  area,  like  to  Alta  Bates,  for  instance,  and  make  them 
abide  by  it? 

Kay:      They  have  to  abide  by  it.   And  to  the  ambulances,  and  to  the  fire 
department.   All  this,  they're  controlled  by  certain  rules  that 
are  established.   Recently,  one's  gone  out:   do  not  resuscitate  a 
patient  if  the  family  does  not  approve.   And  then  the  training  of 
the  paramedics,  went  through  all  emergency  principles.   Made 
several  trips  on  that.   One  to  Kansas  City,  one  to  Minneapolis, 
one  to  Seattle,  to  study  their  systems.   If  you  ever  want  a  heart 
attack,  have  it  in  Seattle. 

LaBerge:   Oh,  okay.   [laughs]   That's  good  to  know. 

Kay:      One  of  the  best  treatment  centers  for  heart  attacks.   Outstanding 
emergency  services  and  care. 

LaBerge:   In  your  practice,  did  you  have  a  lot  of  emergencies,  or  not?   I 
would  think  not. 

Kay:      Not  too  many.   Occasionally,  somebody  would  start  bleeding.   That 
was  an  emergency.   Or  post-operative  bleeding.   But  not  too  many. 

LaBerge:   So  you  didn't  get  a  lot  of  calls  at  night  or--?   [Nods  "no."] 
You  didn't. 

Kay:       In  the  last  few  years,  the  nurses  have  changed  and  we  had  a  lot 
of  foreign  nurses.   So  I  used  to  have  to  stop  in  the  hospitals 


81 


LaBerge 
Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 


and  check  how  they  were  doing.   You  talk  to  them,  and  they  say, 
"Yes,  yes,  yes,  yes,  yes."  And  you  don't  know  if  they 
understand.   After  a  couple  of  experiences  of  trying,  made  a  rule 
that  I  would  stop  in  the  hospital  before  I  cane  home,  because 
there  were  chances  that  they  were  not  following  instructions. 


And  this  is  at  every  hospital  where  you  had  patients? 
lot  of  traveling  around. 


That's  a 


Just  to  check  to  see  if  they  were  all  right.   I  used  to  call  in, 
and  I'd  get  these  yeses.   The  next  morning,  I'd  find  the  yeses 
should  have  been  no.   Funny  that  way. 

That's  very  commendable.   I'd  like  to  be  one  of  your  patients. 
No,  you  wouldn't.   Not  now. 


Retirement  Decision 


LaBerge 
Kay: 


LaBerge 

Kay: 

LaBerge 


Why  did  you  decide  to  retire  when  you  did? 
still  in  good  health,  it  sounds  like? 


Because  were  you 


No.   I  was  in  good  health,  but  I  had  a  hip  replacement  in  1976. 
They  promised  me  that  I'd  be  out  and  back  to  practice  in  two 
months,  and  at  the  end  of  nine  months,  I  was  still  not  well.   So 
I  decided  with  a  solo  practice,  going  back  after  being  out  nine 
months  was  not  worth  it.   So  I  quit.   I  had  a  man  in  the  office 
who  took  my  practice;  I  sold  it.   He's  still  in  it,  and  is  doing 
pretty  well. 

What's  his  name? 

His  name  is  Robert  Safran.   That  was  seventeen  years  ago. 

Wow.   Well,  you  have  kept  so  busy,  though,  with  all  of  these 
different  boards,  it  looks  like. 


Alameda  County  Blood  Bank  and  Related  Issues 


Kay:      Yes.   And  then  I  went  into- -I  guess  I  was  eleven  years  at  the 
blood  bank. 


82 


LaBerge:   I'd  like  to  hear  about  that.   How  are  we  doing  timewise?  Would 
you  like  to  stop  and  pick  up  later? 

Kay:  I  don't  care,  I'm  not  going  anyplace. 

LaBerge:  Okay.   And  you're  not  too  tired? 

Kay :  No . 

LaBerge:  Okay. 

Kay:  During  the  blood  bank,  that's  several  years  ago. 

LaBerge:  I've  got  1982  to  1993  for  the  Blood  Bank. 

Kay:  January  1  of  '93.   They  fired  us.   It  seems -- 

LaBerge:  They  fired  you  from  your  volunteer  position? 

Kay:  No. 

LaBerge:  No,  it  wasn't  volunteer? 

Kay:  You  had  to  ask  that  question! 

LaBerge:  I'm  sorry!   [laughs] 

Kay:      There  were  five  of  us  retired  doctors,  and  we  used  to  go  out  on 

what  they  call  the  mobiles. 

LaBerge:   Those  big  buses  or  whatever? 

Kay:      Well,  not  the  big  bus;  they're  separate.   Go  out  to  the  different 
schools,  different  agencies,  different  places  that  have  drives, 
and  we  would  be  there  because  it  was  required  that  a  doctor  be 
present.   That  was  very  interesting,  because  I  went  to  many 
schools  throughout  the  county. 

LaBerge:   High  schools? 

Kay:      High  schools  and  colleges.   We  went  to  the  university  at  least 

maybe  twice  a  semester.   Mt .  Diablo  [Diablo  Valley  College],  the 

state  college.   That  is  a  beautiful  college.   Ohlone  down  at 

Mission  San  Jose.   And  then  all  the  different  high  schools.   And 

it  was  interesting,  because  you  got  to  see  people,  got  to  know 
people . 

Then  we  started,  I  guess  about  four  years  ago- -I  was  out  for 
a  while,  and  when  I  came  back,  I  couldn't  go  on  the  mobiles.   I 
was  in  the  center.   They  always  had  a  doctor  in  the  center  all 


83 


day  long.   That  was  interesting,  because  you  got  to  see  people, 
got  to  know  people. 

LaBerge:   Would  you  be  called  to  talk-- 

Kay:      Talk  to  people  when  there  were  problems,  talk  to  them  when  the 

nurses  found  problems,  when  there  were  questions  of  whether  they 
were  eligible  or  not,  we  were  the  ones  who  made  the  decision. 

LaBerge:   I  know  a  couple  of  times  that  I  went  and  my  blood  count  was  down, 
I  couldn't  give.   They  always  asked  me,  did  I  want  to  see  a 
physician. 

Kay:      Ask  to  talk  about  why  it  was  down.   We  used  to  talk  to  people. 
Then  in  October  '92,  they  changed  directors.   The  new  director 
came  in,  and  she  wants  to  run  the  whole  thing.   She's  there 
alone;  did  away  with  all  the  doctors. 

LaBerge:   Is  she  a  doctor? 

Kay:      Yes,  from  San  Francisco.   So  she's  running  it  alone. 

LaBerge:   And  she's  the  only  doctor?   And  no  doctor  goes  out  on  the  mobile 
units?   And  that's  not  a  regulation? 

Kay:      I  thought  it  was,  but  it  isn't  now.   The  mobiles  don't  go  out  as 
much  as  they  did.   I  don't  know  why.   See,  they  set  up  centers, 
more  centers,  satellite  centers  all  over. 

LaBerge:   I  didn't  realize  that. 

Kay:      There's  one  down  in  Union  City,  there's  one  over  in  Pleasant 
Hill,  and  where  is  the  other  one?  Martinez,  I  think. 

LaBerge:   Who  is  the  new  director?  You  don't  want  to  mention  it?   Who  is 
the  old  director? 

Kay:      Sylvia  Hoag  is  the  old  one. 

LaBerge:   How  did  you  get  involved  in  that  in  the  first  place? 

Kay:      Well,  I  had  nothing  to  do,  and  I  asked  the  executive  director- - 
not  Sylvia,  but  it  was  run  by  the  county.   And  of  course,  having 
been  president,  asked  how  about  a  job?.   So  they  gave  it  to  me. 
There  were  several  before  all  this  that  had  done  this  job.   Six 
or  eight  doctors  I  have  worked  with  have  died. 

LaBerge:   It  sounds  like  a  great  job  for  someone  who's  retired. 


84 


Kay:      It  was  excellent.   Kept  us  on  our  toes,  because  we  had  to  keep  up 
on  everything.   And  we  went  through  the  AIDS  thing. 
Unfortunately,  at  the  beginning  of  the  AIDS  it  came  out  that 
people  got  AIDS  by  donating  blood.   Now,  somebody  made  that  up. 
We  had  a  couple  of  cases  that  occurred  in  '83  and  '84  when  people 
sued,  because  then  we  had  AIDS  but  we  did  not  have  the  tests 
then.   Today,  the  blood  that  you  get  from  the  blood  banks  is 
about  99  and  99/100  percent  pure.   A  lot  of  people  want  to  see  if 
they  can  give  their  own  blood,  so  they  come  in  and  give  blood  for 
two  or  three  weeks  until  they  have  enough.   I  get  blood 
transfusions  every  three  weeks,  and  I  have  no  questions.   Because 
I  know  all  blood  is  tested. 

LaBerge:   I  know  when  I've  given  blood,  you  get  a  little  questionnaire 
that's-- 

Kay:      Asks  all  the  questions. 

LaBerge:   You  can  say  yes  or  no,  in  case  you  didn't  want  anyone  to  know  you 
maybe  had  AIDS . 

Kay:  That's  right,  afterwards,  yes. 

LaBerge:  But  do  they  still--? 

Kay:  They  still  do  that. 

LaBerge:  Then  do  they  still  test  that  blood? 

Kay:  Yes-- 

LaBerge:  Even  if  you  said,  "Yes,  I'm  fine"? 

Kay:      Yes.   They  test  it  all  the  way  through.   Every  bit  of  blood  is 
tested. 

LaBerge:   So  when  did  the  blood  bank  start  doing  these  tests  routinely? 

Kay:      Routinely,  '85.   And  then  they've  increased  the  tests  as  they 
came  out.   You're  tested  for  everything. 

LaBerge:   Because  you  worked  there,  were  you  involved  in  any  of  the 

controversy,  or  was  there  another  board  that  dealt  with  all  of 
that? 

Kay:      There's  a  board,  the  blood  bank  board.   We  were  just  working.   We 
were  employees. 


85 


LaBerge : 

Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 

LaBerge: 
Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 


LaBerge : 
Kay: 
LaBerge 
Kay: 


I'm  even  more  interested  because  somebody  we  think  we're  going  to 
interview  is  Bernice  Hemphill. 

Hemphill,  from  San  Francisco. 
Yes. 


Irwin  Memorial  Blood  Bank  which  is  different  from  us. 
problems;  they  had  real  problems. 

Did  you  have  anything  to  do  with  other  blood  banks? 


They  had 


Well,  we  are  a  member  of  the  American  Association  of  Blood  Banks. 
I  won't  give  you  the  name.   Because  you'll  go  tell  her. 


No,  I  won't  tell  her. 
her.   [laughs] 


But  I  might  have  more  questions  to  ask 


The  one  thing  that  got  me  was  before  she  came,  she  put  in  a  fish 
tank  in  her  office,  a  tremendous  fish  tank,  which- -she  loves 
fish,  exotic  fish.   That,  to  me,  was  a  tip-off.   If  you  have  to 
have  a  fish  tank  before  you  come  to  work--. 

Just  off  the  cuff,  what  kind  of  problems  did  Irwin  Blood  Bank 
have  that  you  didn't  have? 

Well,  the  AIDS  deal.   They  had  a  lot  more  people  who  had  AIDS  who 
tried  to  give  blood,  and  try  to  get  by  with  it.   That  was  their 
problem.   Here  the  doctors  made  the  decisions.   Now,  the  nurses 
are  making  the  decisions.   And  that's  what  they  were  doing  in  San 
Francisco  all  the  time. 

I  see.   So  you  don't  think- -there  isn't  some  regulation  from  the 
American  Association  of  Blood  Banks? 


I  don't  think  so.   I  don't  know, 
apparently  it's  been  dropped. 


I  thought  there  was ,  but 


What's  the  difference  between  these  blood  banks,  for  instance, 
and  the  Red  Cross? 

Separate  units.   Pardon  me --the  Red  Cross  at  times  hasn't  had  the 
same  standards  as  the  American  Association.   I  don't  know  if  you 
know  too  much  about  the  problem,  but  now  they're  getting  into 
line.   They're  better.   We  had  no  American  Red  Cross  in  this 
county,  San  Francisco,  Contra  Costa  County.   They  had  it  in  San 
Jose  and  Santa  Clara  Counties.   We  interchange,  but  not  as  freely 
as  we  interchange  with  the  American  Association  of  Blood  Banks. 


86 


LaBerge:   Meaning  that  you  have  credit  at  one  blood  bank  and  go  to  another 
one? 

Kay:      We  don't  have  interchange  with  American  Red  Cross. 

LaBerge:   You  mean  you  don't  interchange  with  the  American  Red  Cross? 

Kay:      No. 

LaBerge:   Apparently,  what  I  know  about  Mrs.  Hemphill  is  that  she  was 
instrumental  years  ago  in  getting  that-- 

Kay:      She  had  it  in  San  Francisco.   She  was  a  nurse,  and  she  was  the 
first  one  to  get  this  started.   She --they  mention  her  name  as 
sort  of  the  flag  of  American  Association  of  Blood  Banks.   Is  she 
from  Cal? 

LaBerge:   You  know,  I  don't  know.   We  aren't  doing  her  because  of  any  Cal 
connection.   I  don't  think  that  she  is. 

You  know,  you've  had  such  a  wide  variety  in  your  career,  not 
just  limited  to  your  specialty.   It  must  make  it  interesting. 

Kay:      It  was  very  interesting,  all  those  things  I  did  outside  of  it.   I 
gave  up  being  active  in  urology  because  of  my  son.   We  had  a 
doctor  who  used  to  come  to  all  these  meetings,  and  when  he  got 
older  he  just  sat  and  did  nothing.   He  was  ninety-some  years  old 
when  he  died.   But  he  came  up  to  the  last  minute  to  the  meetings. 
My  son  said,  "Don't  you  be  a  so-and-so,"  the  name  of  the  doctor, 
"and  go  to  these  meetings." 

LaBerge:   Had  your  son  been  to  these  meetings,  so  he  knew  this? 

Kay:  Yes,  he  noticed  that.  He  knew  this  older  doctor  as  my  son  had 
presented  a  paper  and  was  given  first  prize  for  an  outstanding 
paper,  given  by  people  who  were  out  in  practice. 

LaBerge:  What  was  the  paper  on? 

Kay:  I  don't  remember. 

LaBerge:  But  this  is  your  son  who  is  the  doctor? 

Kay:  Yes.   It  was  a  medical  paper. 


87 


Sugar  Cubes  for  Polio  Prevention 


LaBerge:   Are  you  in  a  mood  to  talk  about  the  polio  epidemic  and  your 
involvement  with  the  sugar  cubes? 

Kay:      Sure.   That's  when  I  was  president  of  the  association.   We  got 
together  with  San  Francisco,  San  Mateo,  and  Santa  Clara,  and  we 
picked  out  a  Sunday  that  we  were  going  to  present  for  twenty-  five 
cents,  or  if  you  couldn't  afford  it,  free,  cubes  of  sugar  with 
the  polio,  and  then  we  had  Polio  Sunday. 

LaBerge:   Do  you  know  what  year  this  was?   I'll  Just  look  it  up. 

Kay:      I  think  it  was  '63,  '62  or  '63.   I  remember  going  to  all  the 

centers,  as  many  as  I  could  make,  but  they  made  sure  everything 

was  going  all  right.   Very  successful.   We  did  about  90  percent 
of  the  people  . 


LaBerge:   So  you  went  to  almost  all  the  centers,  adults  and  children. 

Kay:      On  that  Sunday,  yes.   To  see  if  everything  was  in  place  and  was 
working  right.   It  was  very  successful.   There  were  a  lot  of 
volunteers  who  acted  at  the  centers.   We  gave  people  a  sugar  cube 
with  the  vaccine  in  it  and  they  ate  it  and  that  was  it. 

As  you  know,  it's  kept  polio  out  of  circulation. 

LaBerge:   It  sure  has.   And  I  know  later,  when  my  children  were  babies, 

anyway,  there  was  some  kind  of  liquid  that  they  would  squirt  in 
their  mouths. 

Kay:      Yes. 

LaBerge:   But  even  before  that,  I  remember  as  a  child  at  school  lining  up 
to  go  get  shots.   Were  you  involved  in  that  before--? 

Kay:      No.   The  only  thing  I  was  involved  in  was  as  an  intern  thing. 
They  had  four  or  five  kids  on  respirators. 

LaBerge:   Is  that  what  gave  you  the  inspiration  to  do  this? 

Kay:      No.   Just  got  the  other  one  when  they  got  the  vaccine,  it  was  so 
cheap  we  decided  it  would  be  well  to,  as  a  public  health  thing, 
just  kind  of  to  do  that.   And  the  medical  association  was  the 
leader  in  it.   That's  what  medical  associations  should  be. 


K.O.POUO 


Dr.  Harold  Kay  (middle)  prepares  to  eat  a  sugar  cube  as  part  of  the  "Knock  out 
Polio"  program,  1964.   In  the  background  is  a  map  of  Contra  Costa  and  Alameda 
Counties . 


88 


LaBerge:   As  opposed  to  being  just  political? 
Kay:      Right. 

LaBerge:   When  you  were  involved  in  all  of  these  professional  associations, 
were  there  any  other  big  things  like  polio  that  you  needed  to 
take  a  stand  on,  or--? 

Kay:      No,  not  really.   Well,  the  biggest,  as  I  said,  was  Medicare. 

When  we  had  several  special  meetings  of  the  House  of  Delegates  of 
the  AMA.   I  still  remember  the  AMA  answered  it  very  emphatically, 
yes.   A  spokesman  rented  the  big  hall,  he  sat  in  the  middle  of 
it,  and  there  was  nobody  else  there.   He  gave  a  speech  against 
Medicare.   It's  still  in  my  mind  that  he  gave  that,  very 
impressive . 

The  thing  that  used  to  bother  me  is  when  a  patient  would 
come,  the  family  would  bring  him,  drove  a  chauffeured  car,  and 
he'd  come  in  and  present  Medicaid  and  Medi-Cal  for  the  bill.   At 
that  time,  they  weren't  too  anxious  to  pay  their  bills.   I  felt 
that  those  who  can  afford  it  were  using  it  all  up,  and  those  who 
can't  afford  medical  care  aren't  getting  it. 

LaBerge:   Now  I'm  thinking,  do  you  want  to  talk  about  what  you've  done  with 
the  city  of  Piedmont?   From  what  I'm  looking  at,  the  things  we 
have  left  to  do  are  your  community  involvement  in  Piedmont,  and 
maybe  Masonic  and  Shrine,  Rotary  Club,  Temple  Sinai. 

Kay :      Okay . 

LaBerge:   Unless  there's  something  I'm  missing.   Or  we  can  do  it  another 
time . 

Kay:      We  can  do  it  another  time. 
LaBerge:   Okay,  why  don't  we  do  that. 


California  Academy  of  Medicine 
[Interview  4:   February  17,  1994  ]#// 


Kay:      All  right.   I  forgot  to  tell  you  about  the  California  Academy  of 
Medicine,  which  is  made  up  of  all  branches  of  medicine.   It  meets 
once  a  year  in  San  Francisco  on  a  Saturday  night,  and  it's 
formal.   You  have  to  be  elected  into  it.   I  joined  it  in  1947. 

LaBerge:   How  do  you  get  elected  into  it? 


89 


Kay:      People  put  your  name  up,  and  then  they  vote  on  you.   They  send 

out  a  ballot  with  the  names  of  the  people  to  go  into.   There  are 
quite  a  few  people  from  the  East  Bay,  San  Francisco,  and 
throughout  the  northern  part  of  California. 

LaBerge:  For  instance,  what  would  be  a  reason  someone  wouldn't  vote  for  a 
person? 

Kay:      A  local  reputation.   They  have  speakers  on  medicine  from 
throughout  the  country. 

A  very  interesting  thing  that  I  think  might  be  of  interest 
to  you,  not  necessarily  in  the  book,  but  for  years  and  years, 
they  always  had  a  cocktail  hour,  dinner,  and  then  the  speaker. 
And  after  a  couple  of  meetings  where  people  fell  asleep  and 
started  snoring  during  the  meeting,  they  changed  the  format:   the 
speaker  first,  then  the  drinks,  then  the  dinner.   And  at  most 
clubs  today,  most  meetings,  you'll  notice  that  many  times  the 
speaker  speaks  first  before  dinner. 

LaBerge:   I  think  that's  a  good  idea.   Were  your  wives  included  in  these 
meetings? 

Kay:      Wives  were  not  included. 
LaBerge:   I  see.   How  did  that  go  over? 

Kay:  It  was  very  upsetting  to  them,  because  we'd  get  dressed  formally 
without  them,  and  on  a  Saturday  night.  It  was  only  once  a  year, 
thank  goodness. 

LaBerge:  Is  that  still  going  on? 

Kay:  Yes. 

LaBerge:  Any  memorable  speakers  you  heard? 

Kay:  I  can't  remember  any. 

LaBerge:   But  the  idea  was  it  kind  of  kept  you  abreast  of  everything  in 
medicine? 

Kay:      Of  general  medicine. 

LaBerge:   Do  you  remember  who  nominated  you  to  belong? 

Kay:      Dr.  Meads. 


90 


A  Thank  You  from  Kaiser  Doctors 


LaBerge:   In  your  scrapbook,  there  were  several  nice  letters  from  him  to 
you  congratulating  you  on  being  president  or-- 

Kay:      Yes.   Did  you  come  across  the  letter  from  the- -[pause]   A  letter 
I  got  from  the  HMO  [Health  Maintenance  Organization]  in  Oakland. 

LaBerge:   Yes,  I  did,  thanking  you  for  helping  them  out,  from  Kaiser. 
Kay:      Kaiser. 

LaBerge:   Yes,  it  was  very  nice.   There  was  some  problem  with  something  in 
Hayward,  was  that--? 

Kay:      Well,  it  was  in  all  the  hospitals,  they  wouldn't  let  them  join 

the  association.   They  had  trouble  with  the  community,  when  they 
first  started. 

LaBerge:   So  you  were  instrumental  in  getting  the  Kaiser  doctors  into  the 
medical  association? 

Kay:      Yes. 


The  100  Club 


LaBerge 
Kay: 

LaBerge 
Kay: 


That  was  a  very  nice  letter. 
Academy  of  Medicine? 


So  anything  more  on  the  California 


No,  that's  all.   And  the  100  Club,  there's  a  local  club  made  up 
of  100  members.   Again,  you  had  to  be  voted  in  or  recommended  by 
someone . 

Just  doctors,  or-- 

Everybody  in  the  community.   I  don't  know  whether  it's  still 
going  on  or  not;  I  dropped  out  about  eighteen  years  ago.   You 
would  give  $100,  and  you'd  have  one  meeting  a  year,  and  half  the 
money  went  to  the  local  boys  and  girls  clubs.   It  was  a 
charitable- -although  they  did  have  a  wonderful  dinner. 

LaBerge:   Was  that  for  couples,  the  dinner? 


91 


Kay:      It  was  not. 

LaBerge:   That  was  just  for  the  men,  too? 

Kay:      I  like  men. 

LaBerge:   I  see.   I  understand  you  do!   [laughter]   Was  this  kind  of  a 
rotary -type  thing,  or--? 

Kay :      No . 

LaBerge:   I  guess  I'm  trying- -is  the  community  the  East  Bay? 

Kay:      Yes,  it  was  just  the  East  Bay.   A  local  thing.   I  don't  know 
whether  it's  still  going  or  not. 

LaBerge:   So  who  nominated  you  for  that  one? 
Kay:      A  Dr.  Tucker  from  Peralta  Hospital. 


Piedmont  BOY  Scout  Council 


LaBerge:   You  were  involved  in  other  boys  and  girls  things,  like  I  noticed 
you  were  on  the  Boy  Scout  Council. 

Kay:      From  Piedmont,  for  twenty- five  years. 
LaBerge:   What  did  you  have  to  do  for  that? 

Kay:      I  used  to  meet,  when  they  had  meetings,  I  was  the  doctor 

representative  on  it.   And  of  course,  when  my  boys  were  growing 
up,  I  went  to  camp  with  them,  overnights,  and  was  active  with 
them.   Both  boys  were  in  scouting;  my  older  boy  was  an  Eagle 
Scout.   My  younger  boy  went  up  to  Star  Scout,  I  guess  it  was,  and 
all  of  his  friends  had  dropped  out,  so  he  dropped  out, 
unfortunately. 

LaBerge:   Well,  you  know  earlier  on  the  tape,  you  told  the  story  about 
yourself  and  scouting. 

Kay:      Yes. 

LaBerge:   Were  you  also  a  troop  leader  or  something  for  your  boys? 

Kay:      No,  I  wasn't. 


92 


LaBerge:   But  you  were  on  the  Piedmont  Boy  Scout  Council.   Well,  you  were 

on  certainly  longer  than  your  boys  were  involved;  you  were  on  for 
twenty- five  years. 

Kay:      Right. 


Piedmont  Emergency  Preparedness  Committee.  Planning  Commission 
and  Schools 


LaBerge:   I  know  there  were  other  community  things;  I  don't  know  if  they 

involved  kids  or  not,  but  City  of  Piedmont  Emergency  Preparedness 
Committee? 


Kay:      Yes. 

LaBerge:   What  did  that  involve? 

Kay:      Involved  meeting  until  we  got  everything  set  up.   I  was  setting 
up  an  emergency  in  case  of  any  disaster,  and  I  got  four 
containers  at  four  spots  in  Piedmont  where  they  have  emergency 
supplies.   The  three  schools,  and  then  the  one  at  the 
playgrounds . 

LaBerge:   Where  did  you  get  the  containers? 

Kay:      Donated,  two  of  them  from  Blue  Cross,  and  the  other  two,  I  forgot 
exactly  who  donated  them. 

LaBerge:   Did  that  take  about  a  year  to  set  all  that  up,  or  longer? 

Kay:      No,  not  quite  a  year.   And  then  I  was  on  the- -I  taught  emergency 
medical,  I  talked  about  that.   Did  I  say  about  the  planning 
commission? 

LaBerge:   No,  you  didn't. 

Kay:      I  was  on  the  planning  commission  for  six  years  in  the  city  of 
Piedmont,  chairman  the  last  two  years. 

LaBerge:   What  did  that  involve?  Are  there  zoning  or-- 

Kay:       Involved  a  meeting  once  a  month,  hearings  on  planning  in  the  city 
of  Piedmont.   In  between  times,  we  would  examine  the  projects 
that  were  being  proposed  to  us  to  see  firsthand  what  they  really 
were . 


93 


LaBerge:   Building  projects? 

Kay:      Right,  building  projects,  additions  and  so  forth.   Anything  that 
the  planning  commission  does. 

LaBerge:   Is  that  an  elected  thing? 

Kay:  No,  appointed.  I  was  appointed  by  the  mayor,  who  at  the  time  was 
a  doctor,  Gil  Cochrane .  And  a  comment  was  made,  "A  doctor  on  the 
planning  commission." 

LaBerge:   Well,  how  about  a  doctor  for  a  mayor?   [laughs] 
Kay:      That  was  right. 

LaBerge:   Well,  if  anyone  had  known  you,  they  would  have  known  that  you'd 

been  involved  in  a  lot  of  community  and  volunteer  things  that  you 
have  more  than  just  one  little  set  of  knowledge  there. 

Kay:      Right.   It  was  interesting.   What  was  most  interesting  was,  I 
guess,  was  the  reaction  of  citizens  to  other  people. 

LaBerge:   Can  you  give  me  an  example? 

Kay:      Well,  there  was  to  be  a  redistribution  of  a  lot,  and  we  had  a 
hearing  one  night  and  some  thirty  people  came  to  object.   The 
interesting  thing  was,  they'd  say,  "We've  been  neighbors  for 
years  and  we  love  you,  we  think  that  you're  wonderful,  but  don't 
you  dare  make  those  changes."   That,  to  me,  was  sort  of  the  idea 
through  all  of  it.   People  would  come  and  object  for  just  unusual 
things,  such  as  losing  their  views,  losing  their  identities,  and 
didn't  like  the  color  of  the  walls  on  the  outside,  or  didn't  like 
the  trees  they  were  planting,  and  it  was  a  variety  of  objections. 

One  of  the  sad  things,  which  I  don't  think- -I  guess  you 
don't  need  to  know  about  it,  but  this  one  woman  up  in  one  area 
didn't  want  something  built,  and  I  went  up  and  saw  from  her 
bedroom  where  this  would  be  objectionable.   We  were  going  to 
lower  it.   I  left  the  house,  and  in  the  next  day  I  hear  she 
committed  suicide.   That  was  the  most  pathetic  thing  for  me, 
having  been  with  her  just  the  day  before,  and  telling  her  that 
we --what  we  were  doing  for  her.   That  stuck  out  in  my  mind  as  one 
example . 

And  while  on  the  planning  commission  for  the  city  of 
Piedmont,  we  used  to  have  a  gasoline  station- -we  actually  had 
two- -and  we  closed  one  and  put  a  bank  and  a  market  and  so  forth. 
And  the  fighting  over  the  removal  of  the  gasoline  station  to  put 
a  bank  went  on  to  such  an  extent  that  we  had  to  have  a  public 


94 


LaBerge 
Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 


LaBerge 


Kay: 


LaBerge 
Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 


hearing,  which  was  most  unusual  to  have,  to  hear  from  people.   We 
finally  decided  to  approve  the  removal  of  the  gas  station  and 
putting  in  a  bank,  in  the  city  of  Piedmont,  which  was  an 
interesting  sidelight  to  the  planning  commission. 

Oh,  I  bet.   Was  that  the  Bank  of  America,  or  Wells  Fargo? 
Wells- -whatever  Wells  Fargo  is  now.   [Wells  Fargo] 
Do  you  think  that  this  city  is  more  unusual  than- - 

This  city  is  most  unusual.   In  most  cities,  it's  locally  and 
citizen- run,  and  you  have  your  voice  in  everything  that  you  want 
to  have  it  in.   We  have  a  classmate  in  the  class  of  '31  who 
attends  every  single  city  council  meeting  and  objects  to 
everything.   Class  of  '31  at  UC.   Of  course,  the  city  people  turn 
to  me  and  say,  "Your  classmate  was  up  today."   I  shouldn't  tell 
you  all  these  things. 

No,  you  can  cross  this  out  when  it  comes  out  if  you  don't  like 
it.  Did  Mrs.  Kay  get  involved  in  anything  in  the  city  too,  or 
you  were  her  representative?  I  imagine  she's  been  involved  in 
other  community  things. 

She  was  very  involved  at  the  beginning  in  the  Oakland  Museum,  the 
White  Elephant  sale  for  that,  and  other  community  things. 
Primarily  when  the  children  were  in  school,  she  was  involved  in 
women's  auxiliary  of  the  medical  association,  the  county  medical. 
Otherwise,  her  prime  thing  was  raising  her  children. 


Well,  let's  see. 
Piedmont? 


What  else?  Anything  more  on  the  city  of 


It  was  on  the  wall,  maybe  you  saw  it- -I  was  made  honorary  chief 
of  the  fire  department. 

Yes,  I  wondered  what  brought  that  on? 

That  was  the  establishment  of  the  emergency  services.  I  used  to 
take  care  of  them.  Then  I  am  a  volunteer  policeman  for  the  city 
of  Piedmont. 


LaBerge:   What  does  that  mean? 

Kay:       I  used  to  do  a  lot  of  office  work,  and  home  searches- -when  people 
are  on  vacations,  we  check  their  houses.   Now  I've  been  doing 
very  little  because  of  my  health,  but  it  meant  doing  that.   We 
have  about  twenty- three ,  twenty-five  senior  volunteers,  and  they 
check  out  houses,  they  do  a  lot  of  extra  work  at  the  police 


95 


Lafierge : 
Kay: 


LaBerge; 
Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 


department,  in  the  property  room,  which  I  did,  too,  for  a  while 
for  the  Piedmont  department. 

How  many  years  have  you  lived  in  Piedmont? 

We've  lived  in  Piedmont  since  '45.   We  have  lived  in  Berkeley; 
the  war  came  along  and  we  had  to  move,  and  then  when  we  came 
back,  we  wanted  to  go  to  Berkeley.   We  couldn't  find  a  place  to 
live.   We  rented  a  house  in  Piedmont,  and  two  years  later,  we 
bought  our  home,  and  then  have  lived  in  Piedmont  since  then. 


Your  children  went  to  all  Piedmont  schools? 

All  the  children  went  to  all  the  Piedmont  schools, 
went  to  California  schools. 

One  to  Berkeley,  and  one  to  UCLA,  is  that  right? 


My  children 


That's  where  they  graduated  from,  but  they  both  went  to 
[University  of  California  at]  Santa  Barbara  to  begin  with.   Went 
to  Santa  Barbara,  started- -our  idea  with  coming  from  a  small 
community  like  Piedmont  and  going  to  a  small  college,  like  Santa 
Barbara  was  at  that  point,  was  a  slow  step  in  going  to  the  two 
bigger  schools. 

LaBerge:   That  was  a  good  idea. 


Vacations.  Rotary.  Masonic  Lodge.  Temple  Sinai 


LaBerge:   Well,  while  we're  talking  about  your  children,  did  you  do  family 
vacations  or  activities  other  than  Boy  Scouts? 

Kay:      Yes.   For  ten  years,  we  went  to  Lair  of  the  Bear  every  year.   It 
had  just  started.   Then  our  older  boy  by  that  time  was  too  old  to 
be  with  the  family,  so  he  went  out  to  work  in  summertimes.   Our 
younger  one  took  a  trip  to  Canada  with  us  for  three  weeks.   And 
then  we  also  went  to  the  East  Coast,  took  a  car  trip  for  two 
weeks  up  and  down  the  East  Coast  another  summer,  going  to  all  the 
places  you're  supposed  to  go,  such  as  Washington,  Boston,  New 
York. 

LaBerge:   Otherwise,  did  the  family  travel  with  you  when  you  went  to  your 
various  meetings,  or  just  your  wife? 

Kay:      Just  my  wife.   Not  all  the  time,  but  most  of  the  time. 
Conventions  particularly;  not  the  average  meeting. 


The  Kay  Family,  1959:  Harold,  Frances,  Steve,  and  Rob. 


96 


LaBerge:   I  know  you  went  back  to  American  Samoa  at  least  once. 

Kay:      Once.   We  went  back  there,  and  saw  a  complete  change.   Couldn't 

believe  how  things  had  changed.   Couldn't  believe  they  opened  two 
tuna  fisheries  on  one  side.   The  town  itself  had  more  industry 
than  before.   Things  that  I  had  seen  built  when  I  was  there  were 
all  destroyed. 

LaBerge:   How  about  your  hospital? 

Kay:      The  hospital  had  been  destroyed  and  they  started  a  new  one. 

LaBerge:   What  about  Rotary?   I  have  that  written  down  as  something  you 
were  involved  in. 

Kay:       I  joined  Rotary,  Piedmont  Rotary  Club,  I  believe  it  was  twenty- 
four  years  ago,  twenty- five.   I'm  still  a  member  of  it.   I  became 
president  in  1971,  I  believe,  to  '72  of  the  Piedmont  Rotary. 
Rotary  is  known  throughout  the  world.   I  don't  have  to  discuss 
what  they  do. 

LaBerge:   Okay.   And  how  about  Masonic--? 

Kay:      Joined  the  Masonic  Lodge,  I  don't  remember  exactly  when.   Became 
a  Shriner.   I  dropped  out  of  that  years  ago. 

LaBerge:   And  then  Temple  Sinai,  you've  been  somewhat  involved  there. 

Kay:      I  was  very  involved  in  that,  on  the  board  of  directors  for  twelve 
years.   Didn't  hold  any  offices.   Still  a  member;  been  a  member 
since  1917. 

LaBerge:   I'm  just  amazed  at  all  the  things  you've  done  in  your  life,  and 
how  you  had  time-- 

Kay :      To  practice. 


Motivation  for  Community  Work 


LaBerge:   Well,  to  practice,  and  to  do  this,  and  to  do  a  good  job  at  all  of 
it,  and  where  the  motivation  came  from. 

Kay:      I  don't  know.   Well,  I  guess  it  was--I  really  don't  know  where  it 
came  from. 


97 


LaBerge 
Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 
LaBerge : 

Kay: 


LaBerge : 
Kay: 
LaBerge : 

Kay: 

LaBerge : 
Kay: 


Because  a  lot  of  people  would  Just  sit  back  and  say,  "Oh,  let 
George  do  it." 

I  didn't  feel  George  could  do  it.   What  made  me  think  of  that,  I 
don ' t  know . 

Or  maybe  you  thought  George  wouldn't  do  it. 
That  could  be  it. 

It  must  have  started  early  in  your  life,  because  you  said  you 
were  active  when  you  were  in  college,  for  instance,  and  Rally 
Week  and  all  those  kinds  of  things,  which  is  kind  of  a  beginning. 

Yes,  it  was.   I  guess  really  it  started,  I  was  active  in 
scouting,  as  a  scout.   That  could  have  started  it.   In  Berkeley 
at  that  time,  in  scouting  we  did  a  lot  of  community  things.   I 
have  a  picture  someplace  showing  the  drive  for  Christmas  food,  I 
believe.   We  had  those  drives  that  many  years  ago.   Serving  with- 
-what's  his  name? 

Fred  Stripp? 

Fred  Stripp.   We  were  in  the  same  troop. 

It  sounds  also  like  your  parents  were  very  involved  in  the 
community,  like  your  mother  helping  refugees  and  getting 
scholarships,  and  it  must  have-- 

Yes,  they  were.   And  my  father  was  a  businessman  in  Berkeley  and 
was  very  active  in  the  city  of  Berkeley.   They  asked  him  to  be  on 
the  city  council  several  times,  but  he  refused  that. 


And  I'm  just  interested,  has  it  carried  on  with  your  sons? 
your  sons  involved  in  their--? 


Are 


No,  neither  one.   I  know  my  son  in  San  Francisco  isn't,  the 
lawyer,  but  the  doctor  in  Cleveland  I  don't  think  is- -his  main 
concentration  is  on  the  Cleveland  Clinic. 


Berkeley  Foundation  Award  and  Cal  Connections 


LaBerge:   I  noticed  in  your  scrapbook  that  you  have  won  an  award  from  the 

Berkeley  Foundation,  the  trustee  award  for  fundraising- -  it  didn't 
say  for  fundraising,  but  I  think  that's-- 


98 


Kay:      That's  what  it  was,  yes.   That  was  doing  the  time  with  the  class, 
our  fiftieth  anniversary.   That's  where  it  started,  our  support 
of  this  deal  that  you're  doing  now. 

LaBerge:   How  did  you  happen  to  take  that  on?  Did  someone  ask  you? 

Kay:      The  president  of  the  class  asked  me,  who  was  Stern  Altshuler  at 
that  time.   He  since  has  passed  away. 

LaBerge:  Have  you  been  involved  in  other  things  at  Cal  besides  your  class? 

Kay:  I  think  I  told  you,  I  was  at  the  hospital  out  there -- 

LaBerge:  Oh,  that's  right,  at  Cowell. 

Kay:  At  Cowell  for  twenty-five  years.   Otherwise,  I  was  not  involved. 

LaBerge:   Did  you  drive  yourself  around  to  all  these  different  hospitals 
when  you  had  to  go  from  one  to  the  other? 

Kay:      Yes. 

LaBerge:   You  didn't  have  a  chauffeur? 

Kay:      [makes  face] 

LaBerge:   [laughs]   Some  people  do.   I  just--I  didn't  think  that  you  did. 

Well,  let's  see.   We  talked  about  the  time  you  went  to  Washington 
to  testify,  but  then  in  your  scrapbook  I  saw  another  note  that  in 
1960,  you  were  there  to  fight  to  keep  the  Oakland  Veterans 
Hospital  in  Alameda  County. 

Kay:      I  wasn't  there;  that  was  done  in  Oakland  here.   They  had  sent  a 

delegation  from  the  navy,  five  officers,  to  come  out  to  see  about 
Oak  Knoll  being  closed,  and  we  had  a  meeting  with  them.  That  was 
the  time  when- -I  think  I  told  you  about --the  corpsman  that  became 
a  captain. 

LaBerge :   Yes . 


Chances  in  Medicine  and  Urology 


LaBerge:   I'm  coming  down  to  the  end  of  my  list,  but  you  may  have  some  more 
things.   What  about  changes  in  medicine,  changes  in  urology, 
since  you  started  to  practice? 


99 


Kay:      There  have  been  marked  advances  in  medicine  and  in  urology,  from 
simple  little  things  where  we  did  a  lot  of  surgery,  things  today 
they  treat  by  other  means,  such  as  breaking  up  stones  in  the 
kidneys  by  laser  beams,  by  new  medicines  that  we  do  not  have  to 
do  as  much  surgery,  and  diagnosis  is  much  easier  than  it  used  to 
be.   It's  interesting  that  in  urology,  you  could  make  an  accurate 
diagnosis  in  between  95  and  97  percent  of  your  cases,  without 
exploratory,  which  was  a  great  help,  and  gave  me  the  satisfaction 
of  treating  my  patients. 

f* 

LaBerge:   Okay,  the  change  came-- 

Kay:      Most  of  these  changes  have  come  after- -in  the  last  eighteen  years 
after  I've  been  out  of  practice,  but  I  have  followed  them 
closely. 

LaBerge:   For  instance,  in  your  practice,  did  you  treat  adults  and 
children? 

Kay:      Yes,  I  did  both.   I  was  head  of  urology  at  Children's  Hospital 
for  ten  years.   We  used  to  treat  adults  and  children.   Today, 
that's  broken  into  adults  and  mostly--and  especially  a  pediatric 
bureau,  which  gradually  developed  over  the  last  twenty  years, 
which  I  think  is  a  good  idea. 

LaBerge:   There  was  also  in  your  scrapbook  a  letter  from  a  grateful 

patient.   You  must  have  gotten  more  than  just  one,  about  how-- 
both  that  you  had  the  real  art  of  medicine,  besides  the  science, 
and  that  she  was  afraid  of  her  operation  except  she  had  such 
confidence  in  you  that-- 

Kay:      I  don't  remember  reading  that. 

LaBerge:   I  can't  remember  what  her  name  is,  but  you'll  have  to  look  back 
at  that.   So  how  many  days  a  week  would  you  do  surgery? 

Kay:      In  my  days  of  practice,  we  didn't  have  special  days  for  surgery. 
When  it  came  up,  we  just  scheduled  it.   We  usually  scheduled  it 
depending  where  the  person  lived,  and  of  course,  what  convenient 
times  we  could  get  their  surgery  scheduled.   Most  hospitals,  I'd 
get  it  in  the  morning;  one  or  two  hospitals  you  had  to  wait  until 
the  afternoons;  I  would  prefer  not  to  do  surgery  in  the 
afternoons  because  I  think  unless  it  was  an  emergency,  I  didn't 
think  it  was  right  for  the  patients  to  have  to  wait  that  long,  or 
that  I'd  like  to  have  to  cancel  office  hours  to  do  surgery.   I 
had  office  hours  every  day  except  Wednesday,  the  famous  doctors' 
day  off. 


100 


LaBerge:   Right.  But  then  you  worked  on  Saturday,  probably. 

Kay:      Saturday  mornings.   And  then  gradually  gave  that  up.   Today,  I 

think  doctors  give  up  a  lot  of  the  time,  but  they're  going  to  pay 
for  it  soon,  when  somebody  controls  them,  more  than  they're  being 
controlled  now.   And  for  the  record,  they  are  being  controlled 
now. 

LaBerge:   Who  are  they  being  controlled  by  now? 

Kay:      By  the  government.   I  realized  that  I  had  to  hire  a  special  girl 
just  for  insurance  forms  and  things  to  be  sent  to  the  government 
in  my  last  few  years  to  carry  on  practicing  medicine.   And  that's 
one  of  the  costs  of  practicing  medicine  that  people  lose  sight 
of,  that  there's  so  many  forms  and  so  many  regulations  that  you 
have  to  have  a  person  trained  in  your  office  to  be  able  to  take 
care  of  it,  or  as  a  lot  of  people  do,  have  outside  agencies  that 
do  it,  which  costs  money.   That's  lost  sight  of  in  this  cost  of 
medicine . 

LaBerge:   Would  you  say  there  are  other  changes  in  general  medicine,  too? 

Kay:      Yes,  this  is  true  throughout.   I  see  that  in  the  last  few  years 

solo  practices  are  no  longer  in  existence,  because  of  the  cost  of 
doing  business,  and  by  business  with  the  forms  which  I  have  just 
described.   And  you're  going  to  see  more  and  more  groups  of 
medicine . 


At  one  time,  you  asked  me  how  I  could  carry  on  all  of  my 
outside  activities.   I  had  several  colleagues  who  I  used  to  sign 
out  to,  and  they  carried  on  very  well  for  me. 

LaBerge:   You  mean,  for  instance,  if  you  were  going  away-- 

Kay :      Going  away,  I'd  sign  out  to  somebody.   They'd  take  over,  and  vice 
versa;  when  they  went  away,  I  took  their  practice.   Of  course, 
telling  our  regular  patients  we  were  going  to  be  out  of  town,  so 
it  was  only  in  emergencies  that  that  occurred.   That  was  one  of 
the  pleasures  of  practicing  in  the  East  Bay:   the  doctors  were 
all  very  friendly  and  very  cooperative  between  ourselves.   It 
wasn't  a  case  of  stealing  patients  or  talking  about  the  doctors. 
This  community  was  a  very  good  community  to  practice  medicine  in. 
Not  like  many  others  in  the  country,  and  some  that  are  not  very 
far  away  from  here . 

LaBerge:   San  Francisco,  for  instance? 
Kay:      Did  I  say  that? 


101 

LaBerge:   You  didn't  say  that. 

Kay:      You  said  it.   For  once,  you're  right 

Life's  Lessons 


LaBerge:   Just  from  your  life  experience,  what  are  real  life  savers  for 

you?  What  has  kept  you  going?   I  can  think  of  one  I'd  suggest, 
is  your  sense  of  humor.   Do  you  think  that's  helped? 

Kay:      That  helped  a  great  deal.   I  took  things  serious  when  they  were 
real  serious,  and  took  things  lightly,  and  didn't  make  a  lot  out 
of  things.   I  think  that  has  a  lot  to  do  with  success. 

LaBerge:   What  else  like  that  has  been  important? 

Kay:      To  give  of  yourself  to  people,  and  to  help  people  when  they  need 
help.   That  has  been  my  philosophy.   I  guess  that's  the  end  of 
the  interview. 

LaBerge:   Do  you  want  to  end  it  there? 
Kay :      No ,  no  . 

LaBerge:   That  made  me  think,  the  other  picture  in  your  scrapbook  is  a 
wonderful  one  of  Yehudi  Menuhin  and  his  sister. 

Kay:      We  were  very  close  through  the  years,  and  we  still  are. 

LaBerge:   Anything  else,  though,  that  you  want  to  say  to  sum  it  up,  or 
about  family  life  or  anything  like  that? 

Kay:      No,  I  think  that  one  of  the  things  in  family  life  you  have  to 
give  and  take  between  each  other.   We  had  one  philosophy:   we 
never  went  to  bed  after  an  argument  without  making  up.   That's 
good  for  you,  you  know. 

LaBerge:  That's  very  good  for  me. 

Kay:  And  talk  it  all  out. 

LaBerge:  Well,  your  marriage  has  certainly  lasted- - 

Kay:  A  couple  years. 

LaBerge:  A  couple  years.   [laughs]   Anything  else  that  you  want  to  add? 


102 


Kay:      I  think  we've  got  enough. 

LaBerge:   Okay.   We'll  end  there,  and  I'll  just  end  by  saying  thank  you 
very  much  for  sharing  more  than  just  one  interview. 

Kay:      Right. 


103 


TAPE  GUIDE- -Harold  Kay 


Interview  1,  January  20,  1994 

Tape  1,  Side  A 

Tape  1,  Side  B 

Tape  2,  Side  A 

Interview  2,  January  27,  1994 

Tape  3,  Side  A 

Tape  3,  Side  B 

Tape  4,  Side  A 
Insert  Tape  5,  Side  A 

Tape  4,  Side  A  resumes 

Tape  4,  Side  B  not  recorded 


Interview  3, 
Tape  5, 
Tape  5, 
Tape  6 


February  3,  1994 
Side  A 
Side  B 
Side  A 


Tape  6,  Side  B 

Interview  4,  February  17,  1994 

Tape  7,  Side  A 

Tape  7,  Side  B 


1 
1 

13 
24 

31 
31 
41 
50 
54 
54 


56 
56 

67 
76 
87 

88 
88 
99 


104 


INDEX- -Harold  Kay 

Alameda  County  Medical 

Association,   59-60,  87-88 
Alta  Bates  Hospital,   48,  55-56 

Berkeley,  City  of,   1-7 
Berkeley,  Fire  of  1923,   31-34 
Biedenbach,  Carl,   9,  10,  11 
blood  banks,   81-86 
Boy  Scouts  of  America,   7-8,  91-92 
Blue  Cross  of  California,   74-76, 
92 

California  Academy  of  Medicine, 

88-89 

Creighton  University,   20-21,  22 
Cuba,   16 

discrimination,   54 

government  regulations,   79,  100 

Haiti,   15-16 

Hassard,  Hap,   67 

health  insurance,   68-72,  100 

Herrick  Hospital,   54-55,  56 

Highland  Hospital,   13,  28,  57-58 

influenza,   4 
Judaism,   25-27 

Kaiser  Permanente  Hospitals,   59, 

90 
Kay,  Anna  Lesser  (mother),   1-3, 

10-11,  25,  28 
Kay,  Frances  Simon,   13-14,  30, 

35-36,  44-45,  67,  69,  73,  94, 

95 

Kay,  Joseph  (father),  1-2 
Kay,  Robert  (son),   50-51,  86,  95, 

97 

Kay,  Steven  (son),   35,  36,  45, 
95,  97 
Keeler,  Charles,   7 


Medi-Cal/Medicare,   71,  88 
medical  practice,   98-100 
Menuhin,  Yehudi,   26-27,  101 
Merritt  Hospital,   54,  57 

Naval  ROTC,   11,  12 

Navy,   48-49 

Nimitz,  Admiral  Chester,   11-12, 

49 

Oak  Knoll  Naval  Hospital,   50,  98 

Pago  Pago,  American  Samoa,   37-42, 

46-48,  96 

Panama  Canal,   12,  14-15 
Peralta  Hospital,   48,  53-54,  57 
Piedmont,  City  of,   92-95 
polio,   87 
Providence  Hospital,   57-58 

Red  Cross,   40,  46,  85-86 

Stripp,  Fred,   8,  97 
Summit  Medical  Center,   72 

Tarawa  Island,   43 

University  of  California, 
Berkeley,   17-20,  21-24 

Blue  and  Gold,   23 

Class  of  '31,   23-24 

Daily  Cal.   22 

sports,  10 
UCSF,  20-21,  50 
University  of  Edinburgh,  28-30 

World  War  I,   3-5 
World  War  II,   35-48 


Meads,  Dr.  Albert,   28,  35,  58,  89 


GERMAINE  LaBERGE 


B.A.  in  History,  1970,  Manhattanville  College 

Purchase ,  New  York 

M.A.  in  Education,  1971,  Marygrove  College 

Detroit,  Michigan 

Member,  State  Bar  of  California  since  1979  (inactive  status) 

Elementary  school  teacher  in  Michigan  and  California 

Experience  in  legal  research  and  writing,  drafting  legal  documents 

Volunteer  in  drug  education  program  and  hunger  programs, 
Oakland  and  Berkeley,  California 

Interviewer/Editor  in  the  Regional  Oral  History  Office  in  fields  of 
law  and  University  history  since  1987. 


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