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University of California Bancroft Library/Berkeley 

Regional Oral History Office 


An Interview Conducted by 
Ruth Teiser 


Bancroft library 

Brother Antoninus 
being interviewed by the Regional Oral History Office 

Publication rights reserved 
by Ruth Teiser 

June 4, 1994 

William Everson 
Beat Era 

Santa Cruz County 

William Everson, a famed Beat 
Generation poet and printer better 
known as Brother Antoninus, died 
in his sleep early yesterday. 

Long ailing with Parkinson s 
disease and restricted to a wheel 
chair, he was 81 and lived in a rus 
tic cabin in Santa Cruz County that 
he named Kingfisher Flat. 

Mr. Everson was a Roman Cath 
olic convert who spent many years 
as a Dominican monk, but the erot 
ic nature of much of his poetry up 
set the church hierarchy and he 
gave up monastic life about 25 
years ago when he married the 
first of his three wives. 

An influential figure in Ameri 
can literary life for 50 years, he 
was honored at a 1992 reception 
given in San Francisco by the Cali 
fornia Book Club. 

Wreathed in a white beard that 
made him look like a latter-day 
Walt Whitman, Mr. Everson had to 
struggle for each word as he told 
the assembled bibliophiles and 
connoisseurs of small-press print 
ing: "Printing has always come 
easy to me. I seek perfection hi 
printing in a way I do not in poet 
ry. In poetry, perfection is fatal, in 
printing it is necessary." 

Mr. Everson taught poetry and 
handset printing at the University 
of California at Santa Cruz until 
his retirement in 1982. He gained 
fame hi the San Francisco literary 
renaissance of the 1940s and the 
Beat movement of the 50s, along 
with such figures as Kenneth Rex- 
roth, Kenneth Patchen, Lawrence 
Ferlinghetti and Michael McClure. 

As Brother Antoninus, he was a 
recipient of a Guggenheim f ellow- 



He was Brother Antoninus 

ship, and his benign presence 
made him a popular figure on the 
college lecture circuit for many 

"He was a great poet, and a 
very kind and gentle person," said 
his former wife Mary Fabilli of 

Born in Sacramento, he grew 
up in the small town of Selma, near 
Fresno, the son of a Swedish band 
master. He attended Fresno State 
College and in World War n was 
interned as a conscientious objec 
tor in Oregon. 

Mr. Everson s last book, "Blood " 
of the Poet," a collection of his po 
ems, was published earlier this 
year by the Broken Moon Press hi 

He is survived by a son, Jude 
Everson, of Santa Cruz. Funeral ar 
rangements were incomplete, but 
close friends said a funeral Mass is 
planned, and burial will probably 
be at the Dominican cemetery in 


All uses of this manuscript are covered by an agreement between 
the Regents of the University of California and Brother Antoninus, 
dated 30 June 1966. The manuscript is thereby made available for 
research purposes. All literary rights in the manuscript, including 
the right to publish, are reserved to Brother Antoninus until 1967. 
No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication without the 
written permission of the Director of the Bancroft Library of the 
University of California at Berkeley. 


Critical acclaim for his poetry first came to William Everson in 
the years just before the second World War. Critical acclaim for his 
fine printing came in the years following his first serious interest 
in the craft in the war-time conscientious objectors camp at Waldport, 
Oregon. His creative talents in both endeavors continued to flourish 
when be became a Dominican Lay Brother, taking the name Brother 

Born in Sacramento, California, in 1912, young Everson grew up in 
the San Joaquin Valley. His interest in poetry began in high school 
days; but, as he explains in this interview, not until 1934 when he 
encountered the work of Robinson Jeffers did the writing of poetry 
"open up" for him. 

Between 1934 and 1943, when he was drafted and entered the con 
scientious objectors camp, William Everson worked, married, wrote, and 
saw three volumes of his poems published. After the war he came to the 
San Francisco Bay Area and became a prominent member of the "San Fran 
cisco Renaissance" group. He printed on a handpress, wrote poetry, 
worked as a janitor at the University of California Press, and married 
again, as he here narrates. In 1948 New Directions published a selection 
of his poetry under the title The Residual Years, which brought him 
national attention. The following year he was awarded a Guggenheim 
Foundation grant. 

Converted to Catholicism later in 1948, William Everson entered the 
Dominican Order in 1951. He took with him handpress, on which he had 


printed two distinguished volumes of his own poetry, and at the Order s 
House of Studies in Oakland he printed the pages of the Novum Psalterum 
Pii XII which he describes in this interview. 

He has done no handpress printing since, devoting himself to duties 
of the Order, some production printing, studying, writing both poetry 
and prose, and recently lecturing at colleges across the country. lie 
has no plans to resume fine printing, but late in the spring of ]%fj h<- 
told the interviewer that some day he may print on the handpress again. 

The interview was held in two sessions, on December 13 and December 21, 
1965 at the Dominican Priory in Kentfield, California. Brother Antoninus 
spoke fluently but extremely thoughtfully, not censoring expressions of 
doubt or conjecture. He looked over but did not do any detailed check of 
the transcript. 

The Regional Oral History Office was established to tape record 
autobiographical interviews with persons prominent in recent California 
history. The office is under the direction of Mrs. Willa Baum, and under 
the administrative supervision of the Director of the Bancroft Library. 
Other interviews of the Office which may supplement the material covered 
in this interview have been done with Albert Sperisen, Warren Howell, 
Adrian Wilson, Edward deWitt Taylor, and Jane Grabhorn, and others are 
underway in the fields of literature, publishing, and printing. 

Ruth Teiser 

1 September 1966 

Regional Oral History Office 
Room 486, The Bancroft Library 
University of California 
Berkeley, California 


Bancroft Library 


The Everson Family 1 

Education and Depression Years 4 

Conscientious Objectors Camp 8 

Pre-war Poetry and Publication 18 

War-time and Post-war Books 22 

Final Months at Conscientious Objectors Camps 24 

Morris Graves 30 

The Bay Area Post-war Renaissance 36 

Rexroth and Anarcho-Pacif ism 40 

Berkeley and Printing 43 

Influence of Mary Fabilli and Kenneth Rexroth 51 

Conversion to Catholicism 55 

Guggenheim Grant 58 

Catholic Worker House 60 

Dominican Order and Psalter 64 

Writings 74 

Departure From and Return To the Order 81 

Work Since 1960 87 

Partial Index 94 

[First Interview, December 13, 1965] 

The Ever son Family 

Teiser: You were born in Sacramento in 1912? 

Antoninus: September 10, 1912. I had a sister older than myself. She- 
was born in Phoenix in 1910. My brother was born in Turlock 
in 1913, just 14 months after me. After that we moved to 
Selma. Then my mother put a stop to my father s itinerant 
life. He was a wandering printer and band master. He used 
to go to the small towns in the mid-west to get the city 
fathers of the town to set him up to whip the band into 
shape over the winter and give the concerts for the next 
summer. Of course, those were the days when the band con 
certs in the summer were everything. Those little communities 
had no other entertainment. Then they would get him a job 
on the local paper. That is where he met my mother in the 
printing office of the newspaper in the little town of 
Adrian, Minnesota. She was setting type. He came in as a 
band master. A dashing young man from out of town and all 
that. She fell in love with him, and after he went on they 
corresponded and she followed him out west. They were 
married in Yuma, 1 think. My sister was born in Phoenix, 
I think, or the other way around. Then they came to 

Teiser: Was your father born in Norway? 

Antoninus: Norwegian, yes. 

Teiser: And your mother? 

Antoninus: No, she was of different stock. She was German and Irish. 
Her father s name was Herber and her mother s name was 
Barnett. I don t know anything about my father s people-. 
His mother died at his birth. His father was a preacher 
of a Pentecostal type religion called the Eversonians. He 
founded a sect called the Eversonians. 

Teiser: Does it still exist? 

Antoninus: I hear that it does. They are in Scandinavia. People tell 
me they are quite a bunch. I guess it is pretty extreme. 
I don t know anything about them. I heard there arc.- rem 
nants of the Eversonians still around though. Of course, 
the "E" is spelled "I" there. When my father came, he did 
not like the name Iverson so he changed it to Everson. He 
was a terrific guy. He was not much of a printer. He was 
rather clumsy but he could make do. He never had very good 
taste in his designs. He made his living at it most of the 
time . 

Teiser: Did your mother work with him? 

Antoninus: Not so much; she was busy with us. We learned to print early, 
His interest was in music, though. There are some retro 
grade quirks in his mind that prevented him from ever really 
realizing his potential. I don t know what it was. He had 


Antoninus: spark on the bandstand. He could dominate a band. I have 
seen pictures of Toscanini before the orchestra and my 
father had that, an unconscious projection. He did not 
care about the great music, though; he was content to go 
along with the band music, the marches, overtures, things 
like that. His egoism was so great that I think that he 
was content to be "that big frog in a little pool." He should 
not have; he could have had the world of music at his feet. 
He had the power. He had good melody, good tempo. He 
composed music too, and his marches are all characterized 
by a fine, full melodic strain. 

Teiser: Did any of your brothers or sisters follow music? 

Antoninus: No, he trained us all in it, but I think that his own per 
sonality was so powerful that we were kind of shriveled by 
it. We were too close to him. We could not get any 
perspective from him. The same in printing. I left the 
print shop as soon as I could get out of there because 
that overpowering presence of the father was just too much 
for me . 

Teiser: How many children were there in your family? 

Antoninus: Three only. 

Teiser: Where are your brothers and sisters now? 

Antoninus: My sister is in San Diego; she is married. My brother is also 
married; he lives in Los Angeles. 

Teiser: What does he do? 

Antoninus: He works for Lockheed Aircraft in Burbank. 

Education and Depression Years 

Teiser: Did you go through the regular schools in Selma? 
Antoninus: Yes, grammar school and high school. Graduated from high 

school in 19 31. 1 lost a year somewhere around the middle, 
the sixth grade, and my little brother caught up with me, 
to my unending shame. (laughter). 

Teiser: Did you first become interested in poetry in school? 
Antoninus: Yes, in high school. But I really could not make it work. 
Nothing opened up for me; there were three or four dif 
ferent fields that remained potential to me: music, art, 
writing of some kind. It was not until later when I 
encountered the work of Jeffers that all that broke open. 
Teiser: When did you encounter Jeffers 1 work? 

Antoninus: 1934, at Fresno State. I tried Fresno State the following 
semester after I graduated from high school. I had a first 
poem published there. The Fresno State Caravan published 
my first poem. Then I left Fresno State; the Depression was 
on. I was not cut out for academic work, but I did not do 
anything then for two or three years until I went into the 
C.C.C. in 1933. 
Teiser: What do you mean by not doing anything? 

Antoninus: I worked in the summer, but I did not have any work in the 
winter . 

Teiser: You worked in the fields in the summer? 

Antoninus: No, I worked in the canneries. There was a cannery there in 
the town. I probably could have found work. Everyone else- 
did, but I was tied to the home in some way. I could not 
extricate myself from the home. The Depression was as good 
an excuse as any for me not to go out and face the world. 
My father got more and more restive. I was my mother s 
favorite and that was the problem between us. He kind of 
adopted my little brother, who went out and trained himself 
in aviation. My sister trained herself in stenography and 
both of them got work right in the middle of the Depression. 
Only me. (laughter). I was just shaping this great thing 
that I had to give birth to, but it took a long, painful 
process. No one believed in it, and I did not either. 
Teiser: Was this your interest in poetry? 

Antoninus: Well, writing. Poetry is the only thing that 1 really did. 
I tried to write a few stories, but I could not. Suddenly, 
when I went back to Fresno State in the fall of 1934 after 
the year in the C.C.C, [Civilian Conservation Corps], I put 
my hand on that book of Jeffers and everything opened up. It 
was the intellectual awakening and the first religious con 
version, all in one. My father was an agnostic, and I am 
by temperament religious. To a religious man following 
an agnostic belief, nothing could be more frustrating. 

Antoninus: When Jeffers showed me God in the cosmos, it took and I 
became a pantheist. 

Taiser: Was it one book or his whole work that you were reading? 

Antoninus: No, his whole works. I can t remember which one I rt-ad 
first. I devoured them in one great rush. 

Teiser: Did you meet him then? 

Antoninus: I could not meet him. As I often say, "When you are the 

only disciple of a man who hates disciples, you are the only 
one in the world who can not meet him." I did have this big 
projection on him. In a way I found a father. Looking 
back I can see that is what happened: the alienation from 
the father figure was healed in that finding. I came into my 
own as a man. I left Fresno State then in order to become a 
poet. I realized that I could not do it academically. My 
mind did not have that shape. It would have helped me if I 
could have. Many of the things that I now know, I could 
have gotten much sooner and more quickly if I had stayed in 
school, but my unconscious would not tolerate it. It just 
would not; it would not work for me. I had to leave. 

Teiser: Where did you go? 

Antoninus: I went on the land then. I went back to Selma and began 
definitely to move toward the land. That was my first 
concrete goal to get a vineyard, to get out on the land. 
I had met Edwa Poulson in my last year in high school and 
we fell in love then, my first love. That would be in 1930 


Antoninus: that I met her. Then we were not married until 1938. She 

had to go all the way through Fresno State, get her teaching 
certificate, get out, and work for a year. Then with every 
thing safe and secure and established, then we could get 
married. As I look back on it now, it seems fantastic. 

Teiser: People did that in the Depression though. 

Antoninus: Do you think it was rather a more general thing? 

Teiser: I think it was then more than now. 

Antoninus: I am glad to have the reassurance (laughter). In a way I 
kind of put the worst construction I can on things because 
in some waybecause now I can see things that I could not 
see then. That is to say, it was part of a gestation process, 
things slow, painfully slow, the long drawn out inability 
to cope with life on an exterior level, although I kind of 
had a consolidation of it on an interior level. Then there- 
were all those painful inabilities to adapt and relate 
exteriorly that were somehow instrumental too. The sentence- 
is backward, but you know what I mean. Maybe it is just that 
I am trying to make a virtue out of what is essentially a 
defect. And I know that it is a defect. But some of us 
are born with a certain shape to us so that if the other 
side of ourselves can ever be met, it can only be met with 
great travail. That is the way it was with me. 
So I married then and we went out on the land and got our 
selves a farm. We were beginning to put our roots down. 


Antoninus: We had rented near it and we were going to build on it. A 
little vineyard we had right outside of Selma there. She 
was born in Selma and we both grew up there. That was part 
of our own earth-fast sense of place. We were willing to 
just grow up right in the same town when everyone else was 
moving out as fast as they could get out. 

There we were until the war came. Then I had to take my 
stand. When I was drafted, I was sent up to Oregon to the 
Objectors Camp on the Oregon coast. 
Teiser: When was that? 

Conscientious Objectors Camp 

Antoninus: It was January of 1943 that I was drafted. She stayed home, 
taught school and worked the vineyard. But then she moved 
to San Francisco and it was during the war years that the 
marriage disintegrated. It was during that period of 

And yet to me it was a great opening up to be sent to that 
camp. There for the first time I began to recover my true 
social self. It had not quite happened in college, the 
opening up and the engagement. That usually happens to a 
young man when he first goes to college when suddenly he is 
away from home, away from the matrix into which he was born, 
when he is suddenly in contact with large ideas and stimulat 
ing minds which open him up. To me that part of it happened 

Banoroft Library 

Antoninus: in camp. I suppose I was not in college long enough. And 
the long gestation meant I was emotionally retarded. But 
when 1 got to camp I was thirty years old. 1 was ripe. 

Teiser: Who were the people who were particularly stimulating to 

Antoninus: Harold Hackett, Glen Cof field, Earl Kosbad, those three men 
were the most stimulating of the contacts that I made there. 
Kosbad was an anarchist. He was a little older than I. 
Hackett was younger. Coffield was about middle ground. 
Coffield, of course, became fairly well known. Then Kermit 
Sheets was there; then Kemper Nomland came over from 
Cascade Locks. The camps were run by the Peace Churches 
under the law at that time in order to avoid the difficul 
ties of the C. 0. s in World War I. When the draft was 
first proposed, before America s entry into the war, the 
Council of Churches went to the government and proposed 
that if they could manage the camps, they would pay for the 
upkeep of the men. The government wanted a work project 
just as in the C.C.C. There would be this division and the 
government accepted it. No one expected a total draft at 
that time. They were thinking only of a year s service 
or they probably would not have offered it. Then when the 
war broke out, there was an enormous draft which had to be 
taken in. It kind of inundated them. 
We were all sent to these religious camps. I did not want 

Bancroft Library 


Antoninus: to go to a religious camp, but the government did not have 
any non-religious sponsored camps until later that year. 
By that time I was well engaged in the life there and 
decided not to go to a government camp. 

Under the church set-up, they began to sponsor what were 
called special schools. Each camp could, if it wanted, 
specialize in a certain subject. Then from all over the 
whole system, men could be drawn there to participate in 
that program. We set this one at Waldport up in Fine Arts. 
In 1944 they began to come in. We sent out our brochure. 
They came in until the government superintendent realized 
that the type of men who were coming were not in any way 
adapted to his work program. After that, he cut off 

Teiser: So you also had a bunch of people who were not interested 
in the arts at all? 

Antoninus: Yes, and that happened at every one of the special interest 
camps. It was dynamite because every such camp is In 
evitably a frustrating situation. Put an in-group in it, 
a "specialized school" no matter what type it was, "powie" 
you would get a blow up. And we had ours! Did we have 
it! All the innate American hostility to the artist 
broke out, lashed out. And the artist deserves it too, 
for some of us were impossible. 
But here men really began to come in. Some of the exciting 

Bancroft library 


Antoninus: ones who arrived in that period were Clayton James, the 
painter, who became my closest friend. Nomland and Bob 
Harvey also came as painters. Broadus Erie, who later 
became a well known musician, playing in the New Music 
Quartet, and at one time, I think, was concert master for 
the Tokyo Symphony. Other musicians were Robert Scott, a 
lad named Downes and Bob Harvey, a painter cum musician. 
Then the Hedgerow people, Dave Jackson and the theater 
really got going at that time, joined by Martin Ponch. 
The Interplayers really began here. Among the writers were 
Coffield, Sheets, Bill Eshelman, Harold Hackett, Jim Harmon, 
who later edited Ark III, and myself. Before that we had 
gotten a press and had started the Untide Press. It was 
here that I began to take up my first real printing. 

Teiser: How did you happen to do that? 

Antoninus: Well, the fact that we were doing so much publication by 
mimeograph. When I got there, there was already a camp 
montJiy called The Tide. Then a little radical group, Hackelt 
and Coffield and Larry Simons, had started an underground 
sheet called The Untide. "What is not Tide is Untide." This 
was issued every week. Generally it agitated. It had an 
anonymous character called "The Mole" who was the mouth 
piece, for all the dissenting opinion. 

Then when I began to publish, I had^all these poems that J 
had written in Selma, these anti-war poems. I began to 

Bancroft I;K,.. 


Antoninus: publish those every week as inserts in The Untide, under the 
title of The War Elegies. Later we ran off most of these 
in inserts, stapled them together, and put covers on them. 
Thus we had our first publication, Ten War Elegies. Then 
Chuck Davis brought a little press up from Laverne, Cal- , 
ifornia. He was the son of a Brethern Minister. He brought 
one of these little Kelseys. We did Cof field s book, 
The Horned Moon, next on that. Then Larry Simons discovered 
in the village second hand at Waldport, this great old 
platen press, a Gordon press. It was large enough to 
print, tabloid size, a country newspaper; that was its 
history. It was all worn out but we got it, paid $70 for 
it, moved it out to the camp, and began to print. 

Teiser: Had your experience in your father s print shop given you 
any knowledge of how to operate a press like that? 

Antoninus: I fed a lot of press for my father and had set a lot of 

Teiser: Same type of press? 

Antoninus: Yes, but I really did not have any finesse with it. To be 
a pressman is different than to be a feeder. I had fed but 
I was not a pressman. At this time by a good stroke of 
fortune there was a union printer, a union pressman, came 
out from the Walhalla Camp in Michigan. They sent him out 
to the coast. He was really sore about coming. His name 
was Joe Kalal and he was a real good pressman. He was a 

Bancroft Library 


Anioninus: real professional. Larry Simons prevailed upon him to get: 
over his Crouch and help us. He did for awhile; by babying 
him along, by being right there with him and doing all th<; 
menial part myself. If there were any washing up or any 
thing like that to do, I would do it.. 1 kept him placated 
in his mood. He used to protest. 4e would say, "You had 
better watch out, you are beginning to uplift rny morale 
here!" He die not want his morale to be uplifted. He just 
wanted to be utterly nasty. 

The next one chat we printed was The Waldport Poems, the 
poems that I had written at camp, vith linoleum blocks by 
Clayton Jones. After that, he also saw through the press 
The War Elegies, the first printed edition with blocks 
and line cuts by Kemper Nomland, Jr. Both of these you can 
see, by looking at those blocks, that the press work is 
superior. You can see the mark of a professional because 
those blocks were really hard to print. That old press did 
not have a duct roller or anything on it to give the proper 
distribution to the ink. He knew how to solve that in some 
way. I was learning as fast as I could. One day Bill 
Eshelman--Bill Eshelman is now one of the leading librarians 
down at Los Angeles; he was, I forget where he is. He came 
into the camp then in 1944. He was young. He made an 
excellent typesetter, good press feeder. 
He and Kalal did not cotton much to each other. One night 

Bancroft Library 


Antoninus: we had one of those imperative camp meetings that I had to 
go to because I was the director of the fine arts group. 
As I say, the rest of the camp was always blowing up at 
fine arts. Kalal wanted to print, so I got Bill Eshelman 
over there to help him, to wash up and what not. hill cut 
out on him. Joe had to wash up the press himself .so he 
quit. After that he never printed again for us. I had to 
go forward then and print. I had to print by myself, do all 
the press work by myself. I printed the next item, The 
Generation of Journey, by Jacob Sloan, another Civilian 
Public Service man who lived in another camp. 
I forgot to mention that my greatest friend in the order 
came in through the fine arts group. That was Clayton 
James who did the block cuts for The Waldport Poems. His 
wife, who came out and married him there at Waldporl, was 
Barbara Straker James. She did the line drawings for this 
book, The Generation of Journey. I printed that; it was 
hard to print, since I really did not have my touch as a 
pressman. The work shows it. There is a distinct falling 
off in the execution although I don t think there is in 
design. In execution though there is a distinct falling 
off in that book. Our typesetting was fairly good but our 
press work was real down. 

Teiser: Had you set the type? 

Antoninus: No, those were more group projects. Two or three participated-- 

Bancnoft Library 


Antoninus: Eshelman, sometimes Dupre, sometimes Then you see, 

Nomland and Sheets--when I arrived at camp, Kermit Sheets 
was already there. But they were "on loan" from Cascade 
Locks. The Cascade Locks contingent was only "on loan" 
to Waldport for the tree planting season. As soon as the 
tree planting season was over in 1943, they went back. 
Then when the fine arts came and was started, Sheets and 
Nomland transferred permanently from Cascade; Locks over to 
Waldport. Here we had some difficulties because we wanted 
to keep the autonomy of our projects. They had founded 
the Illiterati over at Cascade Locks. Kermit Sheets and 
Kemper Nomland were the editors. Nomland was the son of 
the architect and made some very radical designs. 
We wanted to keep The Untide though. It was kind of our 
own core and we had a little trouble there when they first 
came over about establishing the various autonomies. 
Another magazine came out called Compass with Martin Ponch. 
That was the most famous of the C.P.S. magazines. He brought 
that out when the Quaker system was there at camp. So 
suddenly we found ourselves with all these publicational 
outlets right there in camp and not really enough staff to 
keep them all going. 

Teiser: Editorial or production staff? 

Antoninus: Both ways. It was not any problem for us at The Untide be 
cause we were used to doing our own work. It was not really 

Bancroft library 


Antoninus: too much problem with the Illitcrati either, for Kemper had 
fantastic versatility, although, I think, they somewhat 
resented the fact that we just did not welcome Lhem into 
The Untide staff. However, when Ponch came out with Compass, 
it was a far bigger job editorially. He began to have that 
printer in Portland but he had to draw on many more levels 
of the camp in order to swing it than the fine arts itself.. 
But Adrian Wilson arrived, learned printing here, and began 
to help Martin. We were really stretched tight for time and 
space and every other way then. There was some heated 
friction and some problems. 

As far as the group itself was concerned though, we got through 
that phase very well. The real difficulties were with the 
rest of the camp, but between ourselves there really was not 
much except what the women caused. I mean people would 
tend to fall in love with each other. The whole idea of 
anarchist living was kind of upsetting to a stable domestic 
relationship. In the end that is where it all began to break 
up, with the women, the wives, and the intra-family attractions 
and difficulties, pains, and anguish. 

For example, that is where Adrian Wilson met his wife Joyce. 
She was married to Bob Harvey. He had come out. He was a 
painter who had come out with Clayton James from Big Flats, 
N. Y. She had followed him out and it was there that Adrian 
met her and fell in love. Then the Harveys marriage broke up. 

Bancroft library 

Antoninus: People started leaving the camp then; they just began to 

walk out in droves. The laws were being relaxed. No, the 
laws were not being relaxed but the judges were. They never 
did like the whole set-up anyhow. In a legal v/ay they kind 
of slipped over us. You see, the law was written in such 
a way that the military would not have complete control of 
Selective Service. Congress did not want the war lords to 
have the direct tap into the manpower. That had always been 
the great flaw in totalitarian systems, that they have been 
able to tap into the manpower without any check or balance. 
Congress was very careful to set up the draft system under 
civilian auspices. However, as soon as Pearl Harbor, Roose 
velt took out Dykstra and put in General Hershey, just by 
administrative fiat. I mean over and above the law. Many 
judges, the judges at least in Portland, did not say much in 
the beginning, but by the end of the war when the whole system 
was beginning to creak, victory was in sight, they began to 
get men who had had a transfer that was signed by a military 

Generally when Dykstra went out and Hershey came in, so did 
the whole Army. All the officials of the Selective Service 
became officers. The signatures appearing on the transfers 
then became military signatures. At the end a judge in Port 
land said, "If you had transferred from another...." He held 
that your original induction was legal because it had a 

Ranemff ItbralY 


Antoninus: civilian s name on it, hut your transfer which had an 

officer s name on it that is the point that he stuck on. 

On this he threw it out of court. This meant that everyone 
who had a transfer in his possession with an officer s name 
on it could walk out of those camps with impunity in the 
Oregon area. 

Teiser: Did you do that? 

Antoninus: No, I did not know if the judge would die overnight and a 

new judge would be brought in and give five years in prison. 
With the end of the war in sight, I was not that adventurous. 
When the others had these problems, of course, they did walk 

Pre-war Poetry and Publication 

Teiser: At this camp then, your interest in poetry and printing came 

Antoninus: Yes. Well, I should not say that because when I was in 
Selma, my last year there, I met a friend named Jim 
Atkisson who lived in Sanger. He married one of the girls 
there that I knew in college, Barbara McElroy. She had 
been married to Bob Linn, the writer, and after she and 
Bob were divorced, she married Jim Atkisson. He had been 
a member of the Stanford group, Yvor Winters Twelve Poets 
of the Pacific. In fact he had a poem in it. 
We got to know one another and he had a little Kelsey press 

Bancroft library 


Antoninus: there. We began to print poems of mine which later would 

appear in either The War Elegies or The Re s idua 1 Year s , that 
first mimeographed edition of The Residual Years which wo 
did at Waldport. We did no more than a few proofs of these, 
and ordinarily I would not mention them, but I have dis 
covered that some of the proofs are in the library at Fresno 
State. They are going to rise to plague bibliographers, so 
I might as well get the record straight as to what that was. 
I used to bicycle three or four times in that winter of 1942- - 
until the end of the year 1942 and the beginning of January 
tire rationing was on--I used to bicycle over to Sanger and 
work there setting type and getting ready to make a run on 
this little press. We must have done, I cannot remember how 
many pages, not too many. The title page I understand is 
among the proofs but I did not do that. Jim did that after 
I was drafted. He was going to go ahead and finish the book, 
but he got too much work to do on his farm. He owned a farm 
east of Sanger. It was over 40 acres and it was all he could 

Teiser: Was his press just a hobby then? 

Antoninus: Just a hobby. 

Teiser: But you had had that single experience of putting your own 
poems into print yourself? 

Antoninus: Yes, of course it was never published, but there they were 
before me anyhow. 


Teiser: Was this a particularly striking thing to you? Or was it so 
natural that you did not make much of it? 

Antoninus: I knew that we were on the track of something; that something 
significant would have emerged from it. It wasn t as if I 
had been around the print shop so often that it was not an 
archetypal experience for me. 

Teiser: Had you had work published in periodicals before your camp 

Antoninus: Oh, books too. I had my first book published in 1935. It 

was called These Are the Ravens. That was a pamphlet that was 
published in San Leandro by the Greater West Publishing Com 
pany. This was a vanity press. They had a little magazine 
called Westward which accepted one of my poems. Then I saw 
an announcement in there announcing this Greater West Series 
of Western Poets. I wrote and the publisher, Hans A. 
Hoffman, said that he would welcome my manuscript. He gave 
me the terms. He would print a thousand of them if I would 
pay him $30. If you can believe it. He would keep 500; 
I would get 500. They were to sell for ten cents apiece. 
I got all the money of those I sold of my five hundred; those 
he sold I got two cents on. He never sold any, maybe two 
or three. 

Teiser: What happened to yours? 

Antoninus: They are now selling for $30 apiece. 


Teiser: My word! Did you sell all of yours originally? 
Antoninus: No, I used them for lighting stove wood one winter. Nothing 

moved. I gave them away to a few friends but they immediately 
went out of sight. I doubt that it was reviewed, or not more 
than one or two. Then later on when 1 was writing in earnest, 
I mean when I was well launched in my writing, I met Larry 
Powell in 1937. 1 had a friend who worked in the library at 
Fresno State. Her name was Fay Porter. She introduced rne to 
Larry Powell. We had a great mutual interest in Jeffers so 
she introduced us. He had done the book of Jeffers, the first 
extended treatment of Jeffers 1 work. She knew my obsession 
with Jeffers so she got us together. 

I wrote to Powell and later we met. It was he who introduced 
me to Ward Ritchie in Los Angeles. Ward undertook to print 
my second book for me, San Joaquin. Here once again, I paid 
him $125, but this was hard bound. The price is almost as 
fantastic now as the other. 
Teiser: I have a copy of it. 
Antoninus: If you ever want to sell it, I know people who would give a 

good deal for it. It s fantastically rare. It was a beautiful 
little book, a very sweet little book. It s dark brown with 
a white spine. It is soft Irak paper. 

Teiser: Adrian Wilson said that this spoiled you for ordinary printing. 
Antoninus: (laughter) That is a good way to put it. 
Teiser: Then did you have a third book which you paid for yourself? 


Antoninus: Yes. The Decker Press in Illinois published it in 1942, 
in the fall. It was called The Masculine Dead. It was 
published before I was drafted. There were 200 printed. 
I paid him $80. Fantastic prices! Hard bound. It was a 
terrible job. He was trying to publish too much and his 
sister was setting type. It was loaded with typographical 
errors. All these poems, these three books are now being 
brought out again by Oyez in Berkeley. For the first time, 
the early poems are going to be issued complete. 

War-Time and Post-War Books 

Antoninus: It is a great joy to me to see them all collected. They 

were only selected (not collected) for The Residual Years, 
the New Directions book in 1948. James Laughlin did not 
want to collect the poems so I gave the task to Kenneth 
Rexroth, or if you want to say the honor, but more the 
task, of selecting from those. He combed the Jeffers 
influence out. He does not like Jeffers. Also his 
literary politician s sense told him that in 1948 that was 
about the worst possible time to arrive on the scene with 
a Jeffers book. He realized that the real comer was going 
to be D. H. Lawrence. Therefore, he emphasized the 
Lawrencian side of the writing. 

Teiser: You had been considerably influenced by Lawrence? 

Antoninus: Yes; so he emphasized this side of myself. The blurb carried 


Antoninus: the Lawrencian references and none of the Jeffers. I was 
so amused because when the book was reviewed, not one re 
view mentioned the influence of Jeffers, not one; they all 
fell for this Lawrencian line. Lawrence did not influence 
me much as a poet. His attitude did, but my real master 
was Jeffers. Yet, it just shows you how much the reviewers 
tend to follow what is fed them. Not one recognized the 
influence of Jeffers. Now when they say to me about my 
work (after I put it on the jacket), that the influence of 
Jeffers is obvious, I just laugh. I know that if I had not 
said it, they would not know that it was there. 

Teiser: Your period during World War II in camp then saw what-- 
three more books published? 

Antoninus: Yes, it saw The War Elegies bringing together just the same 
poems. Ten War Elegies or just War Elegies, it is the same. 
One is mimeographed and one is printed. Then there was the 
Waldport Poems. Then working by myself as an off-hours pro 
ject for Untide, I printed the Poems MCMXLII and at the same 
time issued the first version of the book called The Residual 
Years, which was not a collected work. It was just a pick-up, 
some poems that had not been included in either The War Elegies 
or the other one. All these books I had written at Selma 
except for the Waldport Poems. Most of the work that was 
brought into print at Waldport was done at Selma. In the 
later Residual Years that is constituted by the middle 


Antoninus: section of the book. I had then, how many titles? There- 
was: Ten War Elegies, War Elegies, the Waldport Poems, 
Poems MCMXLII , and The Residual Years. Five titles came 
out under my name then. 

Then I left camp and we went to Cascade Locks. We also 
printed up there. Got side-tracked on Patchen s book, 
An Astonished Eye Looks Out of the Air. There is a story 
in itself. It is the anti-war poems of Kenneth Patchen. The 
war was closing and he wanted these anti-war poems to be 
published during war-time. He wanted us to do them because 
he was struck by Kemper Nomland s designs. It was too big 
of a book for us, I felt. I did not want to do them, but 
Dupre--Vladimir Dupre, he was the secretary of the press- 
he got Eshelman to side with him. I finally agreed to it. 
It was a mistake because it was too big a book. It turned 
out to be too ambitious. Patchen is difficult to work with. 
He puts a lot of pressure on you. Robert Duncan says that 
Kenneth Patchen is the poet that little presses fold up on. 
(laughter) . 

Final Months At Conscientious Objectors Camps 
Teiser: This was at Cascade Locks, where there was also a conscientious 

objectors camp? 
Antoninus: This [the Patchen book] began at Waldport. Then that carnp 

closed in December, the last day of December, 1945. The war 


Antoninus: was over. They did not release us though. They could have 
closed it out in a week or two, their whole system. But 
the reason they were not releasing us was because of 
political objection. They felt that the conscientious ob 
jectors would go out and get all the jobs. They released 
us at the same ratio that they had inducted the total 
servicemen. Since there were about 1000 C.O. s to a million 
G.Ic s, it meant that we had to wait for a million men to be 
released before the 1000 C.O. s could be. We were still there 
then after the close of the war. 

Teiser: At Cascade Locks? 

Antoninus: Yes, in the middle of it, it kind of broke. The war was over 
in the middle of 1945. By the end of that year the camps 
were gradually being closed down, so they had to consolidate. 
Instead of releasing us, they had to make us all pick up and 
move to another camp. They sent us then to Cascade Locks. 
In the spring of 1946 that camp was closed. By rights, my 
release should have come through by May of 1946, but a big 
strike wave began to go through the camps and I thought my 
release was already in the mail. This was at the end of 
April or maybe the first few days of May. I kind of calculated. 
I believed in the strike wave and the demonstration, but once 
again my cautious Virgoian nature would not let me act at 
that kind of a risk. Since I was the leader of the whole 
fine arts wing, and of that whole radical wing, every thing 

Antoninus: kind of hinged on me or I never would have done it. Even 

then I was not going to do it. I had had it; I was fed up; 

my marriage was on the rocks. I just wanted to get out of 

there and get back to California. I had lived radicalism 

to the hilt. All the idealism was gone out of me. I just 

wanted to withdraw. Yet, that night before that gigantic 

strike was supposed to be timed all over the camps, I was 

sitting up late that night and Broadus Erie s wife, Hilde- 

garde, God bless her she was a pianist, wonderfulbut she 

got to talking to me. I admitted that I had, that I felt 

in my hands the power to strike Cascade Locks if I wanted to. 

She said, "Why don t you do it?" 

I said, "I don t want to. I am not impelled." 

She said, "Well, why?" 

I said, "I would get my head lopped off." 

She said, "But your release is already in the mail. You can 

expect it in a day or two. It must have been in the mail 

from Washington at the first of the month." 

I said, "That is true." 

She said, "Then what possible grounds could you have for not 

doing it?" 

I said, Veil " 

Then there was another guy, a real man, he was a religious 
man. He was going ahead on the strike anyhow. He was one of 
these real solid, real peace corps guys. He grew tap in the 

Antoninus: real superb Protestant spirit that when he sees a thing 

that has to be done, he is committed in conscience to do it. 
It does not really matter if anyone else goes along or not. 
He does what he has to do. He was all set to go out and 
strike even though no one else in the whole camp was. 
Dansizen his name was. I just saw him, and he had begun to 
write his posters out, thinking that he was going on strike 
the next day to join in with the great synchronized strike- 
all up and down the coast. 

Here I was between this woman and him sitting there. I was 
night watchman, so I had a long ordeal that night. Some 
where around daybreak, I had been converted. I got up and 
began lettering the signs. As soon as it was time to ring 
the rising bell, I went through the dorms hollering, "Strike!" 
They all came out behind me. The whole core, the hard core, 
that had moved over from Waldport, rose up in strike. 
That noon the Portland papers carried headlines: "Conscien 
tious Objectors Strike at Cascade Locks." This I never ex 
pected. A poor Jehovah s Witness who was going up to the 
court that morning to be tried--he was stubborn and 
rebellious. When those headlines hit the street, the judge 
gave this chap a very long term. That made the papers too. 
I saw this poor Jehovah s Witness caught by my action. Here 
I had done this thing. I had precipitated this whole thing 
almost alone. 


Antoninus: Well, my release had not been mailed; my calculation was 
wrong. The first thing the government did, the way they 
struck back, was to revoke or to close the releases of those 
involved. They did not have any way to strike at us, the 
government didn t, because their legal position had become 
so shaky. The "slow-downers" had perfected the technique 
against the government of working so slowly that nothing 
could be accomplished and yet they were not disobeying an 
order. They had funneled all those to a camp up here in 
California called Minersville. Actually, I ended up there; 
that is where I was released from. 

Teiser: Where was Minersville? 

Antoninus: It was way up here in the Trinity Alps country. Anyhow, my 
release got plucked out of the hopper. 

Teiser: When did you then get released? 

Antoninus: Three months later. Three months it took me. That was 

because after we went to Minersville, I was working then. 
Everyone there was on slow-down, or most of them. Anyone 
who worked at all got an excellent report record. As soon 
as the government saw that I was back working.... 

Teiser: You worked? You were not one of the slow-downers? 

Antoninus: Not after I got to Minersville. I did not join the slow- 
downers, no. I just wanted to get out of there. 

Teiser: So then you came out in the autumn of 1946? 

Antoninus: July 23, 1946. 


Tciser: You came directly to the Bay Area then? 

Antoninus: Yes, down here. I had friends in Berkeley. I remember 1 had 
grown a beard at Miner svi lie. I came down beard and all. It 
was there that I met Mary Fabilli. She was a friend of Robert 
Duncan. I had know of her for years. When I first met 
Robert Duncan about 1941 and had come up to San Francisco, In- 
had shown me some of her art work. She was in Mexico at that 
time though, so I did not meet her- On one of my furloughs 
from camp, I had come down to San Francisco and had found 
this giant hand press in Ottsman s Printers 1 Supply shop over 
in San Francisco, and I had bought it from him. I think it 
cost $175; I sold my insurance policy to get it. 
Teiser: You were determined by then to print? 

Antoninus: Yes, we were all trying to figure out what we were going to 
do in the post-war world. Some of them wanted to go and 
keep the Untide going as a group. I did not want to; 
probably should have. They depended on me in many ways. 
They formed a kind of psychological polarity. 
The marriage problem was so strong though. I was so thrown 
by the breakdown in the marriage that unless I could get 
some kind of center or relationship, an emotional polarity 
of some kind in a deep personal way, I could not feel oriented 
in a way. I did not know though which way my mind was going 
to go because I did not know how this problem was going to be 
solved. I just did not want to make any commitments of a 


Antoninus: definite group kind of that nature. I did not mind working 
with these people as long as I had to work with them in 
camp, but I was not so sure of trying to set up a life with 
them in the open society. I had seen so many confusions 
and tensions growing. Although I was committed with them in 
terms of the work itself, still in terms of the life to be 
lived, its domestic and its emotional component, this I was 
far less convinced of. We were all trying to come up with 
one scheme or another. Actually, of the whole group there 
was only Clayton James and his wife that I had a profound 
enough relationship to that I could have sustained u relation 
in the open world with them. They went north though. They 
went up to the Puget Sound area; they were just attracted. 

Morris Graves 

Antoninus: You see Morris Graves had come down in the summer of 1944. 

Teiser: To your Camp? 

Antoninus: He was visiting. What had happened, when Clayton James came 
out in 1944, Graves had had his big show in New York, and 
Clayton and Barbara had both seen it. When they were out, 
they were talking of Graves as being the foremost interesting 
painter then in their ken. When we talked of the fine arts, 
they said that we ought to get a man like that to come. 
Well, now it kind of ties together. 
Then another friend of mine, Kenneth Carothers, who was one 


Antoninus: of my friends who had grown up in Selma. We got to be very 
close there in the last months. 

Teiser: In the last months in camp? 

Antoninus: In the last months in Selma in 1942. He was drafted in 1942 
and sent over to camp at Camp Roberta. He was a clerk there. 
Graves had been inducted but he had been an early conscientious 
objector. He had gone to the induction center and refused 
to take the oath. They had taken him into the Army and put 
him in the stockade. Later that policy was abolished. If 
you did not take the oath, you were immediately sent back to 
the civil authorities, which was proper. At that date, the 
fact that you arrived there, they just put him in the hands 
of the military, so he had this big ordeal to go through in 
the stockade in the Army. Finally, they concocted a 


psychiatric release of some kind and got him out. It was not 
without a great deal of travail for him though. My friend 
Carothers had met him there and it was through him that I 
finally got in contact with Morris Graves. At least it was 
through him that I knew how to reach him. 

So Morris came down to Oregon from Puget Sound. He said he 
was coming but he did not tell us when. One day he slipped 
into the region without telling us; he was always one to use 
indirect approaches. He scouted the place out, looked over 
us from afar, then went down on the beach, found a piece of 
unused property down there, got some shingles from a lumber 


Antoninus: camp and began to build himself a lean-to down there on the 

beach right near us. Then after he was fairly well encamped, 
he introduced himself and gave us a show of the paintings that 
he had just done. He stayed there for maybe a month or six 
weeks. He did some wonderful paintings there on the beach. 
Some of them are reproduced in that book that the University 
of California Press did on him. The scoter in the various 
phases of disintegration, as if it were passing into another 
incarnation, was done there. I forget the name of it, that 
dying scoter, that dying bird. 

Then some of those great menacing wave paintings that he did 
about that time were done following an incident. I might as 
well relate that. He and Clayton James had gone down to the 
beach one afternoon and had taken inner tubes and had gone 
out through the surf. They got caught in a pocket out 
there so that they could not get either out far or come back 
in. The waves just began to pound on them and they thought 
they were going to drown. They could not get out; the waves 
would come over them, and before they could get their breath 
another wave would come on top of the. Finally, they were cast 
up about three-quarters of a mile down from where they had gone 
into the water. They were very shaken. I happened to drop 
down on the beach that afternoon, and they were really shaken. 
Some of those paintings came out of that experience of Morris 
Graves. He also painted a couple of paintings to some lines 


Antoninus: of my poems. In the Masculine Dead there is a line called 

"Under the grinding rivers of earth..." He did two paintings 
of a fish in various stages of disintegration in the water, 
skeletal fish to that line. He did those paintings there. 
He did some fine work in that short period of days. 

Teiser: What was the date of that? 

Antoninus: The summer of 1944. Then he went back to... no I think that 
was 1945 not 1944, although I cannot believe it. I remember 
one fantastic incident that occurred when James and I were 
down at Graves camp in the evening; the long summer-time 
Oregon evenings, beautiful to just sit around the camp fire 
at his lean-to there and talk together. We were just con 
versing when suddenly a jeep pulled up. Ours was the only 
camp in the west patrolled by the military, because we were 
on the shoreline, you see. They were always kind of hounding 
us one way or the other. If they would catch us out on the 
road walking back from town, they would haul us clear back 
to town to question us, then let us go so that we would have 
to walk the same four miles back again (laughter). That is 
the sort of thing they would do. They knew us, but every 
time they saw us they would pick us up and haul us all the 
way back in there. 

Suddenly this jeep pulled up and this officer got out. There 
were two or three dog-faced G. I. s with him and they had, I 
can never forget the faces of those G.I. s, they were just 


Antoninus: kids but anything having to do with that--you know, we were 
just "kooks." They just looked at us, you know, their first 
real introduction to "kooks." They were mid-west farm boys, 

They got out of the jeep looking at us with this look of 
"I am looking at kooks." Their mouths were draped open; 
their eyes had that kind of fixed look. The officer snapped, 
"Who is in charge here?" Graves, with his Oriental courtesy, 
has a masterful presence. He is a very complicated individual, 
but he has a masterful presence when he wants to, a master 
showman! He is a performer of himself when he has to be, when 
he is under stress or pressure. He rose up. We had been 
drinking tea in these little Oriental cups that he brought. 
He rose up with great Oriental dignity and said, "I am." 
The officer snapped back, "let me see your papers." 
"Yes, Sir. Would you care for some tea?" 

"Not at all. No I don t. No, thank you." 

"This is my friend William Everson and my friend Clayton James. 
Are you sure that you would not join us for a cup of tea?" 

"No, let me see your papers!" 

"Yes, Sir." He handed him his discharge papers which said 
plainly, "Psychiatric Release." 

The officer looked it over, turned to Jumeb and me, and said, 
"Are you from the camp here?" "Yes." 
Clayton by that time had a great beard. My hair was down to 


Antoninus: my shoulders. I did not have my beard then, but I had let my 
hair grow longer. We are used to long hair now since the 
beat days, but then it was not common. There was this 
strained moment of mutual appraisal, and mutual estimation, 
utter sparks in the air. They snapped back into the jeep; 
the G.I. s piled in the back behind the officer and off they 
rode down the trail, leaving dust behind them. Then Graves 
just said, "Whew!" He said, "Boy after those months in the 

stockade " Suddenly to have thrown at him from the blue 

in that moment of serenity was just like a whole period of 
his life coming back and hitting him between the eyes. We 
never forgot those moments. Those were great, great moments. 


(Second Int tvifw, \)< < ember 21, 1965] 

A -< ;.) Post -War Renaissance 

Tc- scr: You cairn- to the San Francisco Bay Area then to establish 

a press? 
An<:oninus: Yes, the others had moved the Unf id< Press down to Los 

Angeles. In a way, I could have centered up that whole move 
ment. I think they were looking toward me to somehow taker 
the lead and start getting some kind of establishment, sorie 
kind of contin ity in the. communal life that we had begun 
there. There were hopes for the future, but my domestic 
problems were so great. How shall I say it? I had some 
instinct that I was not ready -^et for communal living, for 
entering an order. I was not ready v?t-. for the communal 
life; my metaphysics were the metaphysics of isolation and 
of independence. I was able to work in a camp like that 
under forced circumstances, but as soon as the force was 
taken away, my instinct was for solitude or isolation. 
Teiser: I should think that it might have been a reaction to the 

camp living. 

Antoninus: Probably, but I did not know how to do it myself. My friends 
Hamilton and Mary Tyler had a farm in Sebastopol. When I got 
my hand press and got it out of Ottsman s shop and loaded it 
on to a trailer, I took it up to this farm called Treesbank 
up on the ridge above Sebastopol. Here there was an apple 


Antoninus: orchard, beautiful redwoods, the Sonoma hills. It was my 
first and only prolonged contact with them, but 1 realized 
that it would be an idyllic landscape. It was so perfect, 
so hauntingly beautiful. I don t know if I have ever seen 
anything so lovely. It remains in my mind in a marvelous 
way. I got some of that in my later poems, the marvelous 
way that landscape is. 

There was an old apple dryer there on the place and we moved 
the press into that. I began to make my living quarters 
there. The harvest season was on, and we had a lot of apple 
picking to do. There was not very much money; they were 
broke. They had some cows and a few chickens. They had 
hoped to score that year in the apple market with the 
apple crop. Something happened and the New York market was 
literally wiped out so they did not get any money from the 
apples. Nevertheless, we did keep on trying to harvest them. 

Teiser: Where had you met the Tylers? 

Antoninus: I had met Hamilton Tyler before the war. He had lived in 
Fresno. He came to my farm outside of Selma. He met his 
wife up here at Cal. I only met her maybe once or twice 
before the war. After they left the Bay Area, they went to 
Lincoln in the foothills of the Sierra. That was their first 
farm, and I went there on furlough. Then he moved to Guerne- 
ville, Pond Farm, which later became known as an artists 
establishment. From there he got the farm at Treesbank. 


Antoninus: When I got out, they were really ready for me:. Robert Duncan 
had spent about three months there before. We were all 
friends together. 

Teiser: When had you met Duncan? 

Antoninus: I had met him in about 1941, I think, when he was editing a 
magazine called Experimental Review back in Woodstock, New 
York. That was an adjunct of another magazine called The- 
Phoenix which a man named Cooney, a Lawrencian, a Lawrence 
fan, was editing. Cooney had written to me. I don t know 
whether I had gotten the contact or whether he had written 
to me. Anyhow he published a poem of mine and I had sub 
mitted another. Duncan saw that poem and wanted to use it in 
his magazine. We began to correspond. When he came back 
to the coast, his step-mother was living in Bakersfield. 
That brought him down into the valley and he stopped by one 
time. That is when I first saw him. He was also a friend 
of Mary Fabilli s, whom I later married. There were all 
these cross ties of associations. He was part of that group 
which I entered when I got out of camp. 

That had been essentially a Berkeley group. With Rexroth in 
San Francisco, it had broadened to take in that. After 
Rexroth had become disillusioned with the revolutionary 
movement, the proletarian movement, he began to broaden his 
base. That is the way I look at it now anyway. I might be 
wrong because I was not there. My feeling is that he began 


Antoninus: to be a patriarch in a different sense. San Francisco at 
that time was ripe for his presence. 

Teiser: Why was it? 

Antoninus: Because the experimental movement had begun to take both in 
the arts and in literature here. He had a background as an 
objectivist, and his background as an experimentalist let him 
combine many things within himself. For instance, he was 
reading people like Buber and religious existentialists of 
that type long before the general culture was very much aware 
of them. I don t mean the general culture, but at least the 
intellectual culture. The literary culture had been dominated 
by Marxism for so long. Rexroth s fairly early break with 
Marxism and his interest in metaphysical ideas led him to 
these trends long before anyone else around that I was aware 
of. It made him extremely stimulating from that point of 
view. He had a radical background; he was avante garde in 
literature; and he was very "hip" in new religious trends. 
All this synthesis of associations and ideas was very exciting 
because after the war, most of us were extremely disillusioned. 
We were looking for something entirely new. He was able to 
focus on that and give it direction. For example, a poet 
like Philip Lamantia who had been captured by the surrealists 
at the age of 16 and taken back to New York and made an 
editor of View magazine, the surrealist magazine, he was 
something of a "cause celebre" back there among the. After 


Antoninus: whatever personal reasons caused the stop of that, he came 
back west. He found a father in Rexroth. 

Rexroth and Anarcho-Pacif ism 
Antoninus: Among these people who were disaf f i liated with political 

interests, there was a gravitation toward Rexroth and anarch 
ism. He provided that polarity. He tried to found the heat 
Generation at that particular time. He tried very hard to 
start something that would have an echo; that would have a 
resonance back on the total intellectual climate of the 
nation. He polarized from San Francisco to start a new 
movement. He came very close, but it was a little premature. 
The Cold War was just beginning. The economy was not able 
to expand rapidly into the kind of thing that was needed. 
The rest of the nation, I guess, was not really ready. It 
took Korea and the impasse following Korea to produce the 
mental climate which would produce the Beat Gent-ration. It 
took the long Eisenhower, what you might call establishment, 
with its oppressive, static character (the second Eisenhower 
administration) that took the need of revolt, not only among 
the youth but also among the mass media. They began search 
ing for signs, in terms of the title of Life s main article 
on the Beat Generation. They were searching for "the only 
rebellion around." They were searching for something to 
break that impasse. They fostered the Beat Generation. 


Teiser: You used the word anarchist in relation to Rexroth. This is 
not its historical meaning, is it? Rexroth 1 s type of 
anarchism was different? 

Antoninus: Some would call it "anarcho-pacif ism. " See, anarchism is 

chiefly associated with violent overthrow of the government, 
but specifically, that is more of a journalistic application 
of it. Philosophically, it is not. That is to say, it speaks 
of a condition, not of an overthrow. Therefore, "anarcho- 
pacifism" as we call it meant the establishment of an anar 
chist society not by overthrow of the present government but 
by a withdrawal, by saying you are no longer needed by the 
established government. 

Teiser: This was quite different from the World War I brand then? 

Antoninus: Even back then there had been a struggle within the anarchist 
movement itself for pacifism as opposed to violent means for 
securing it. 

Teiser: Was it Rexroth who brought back the anarchist concept himself 
or did he take part in a larger movement at that time? 

Antoninus: In San Francisco there remained an old line of anarchists, a 
substratum especially among the Italians. There were 
hangovers from the World War I period. These were still 
pretty much dedicated to overthrow. 

Teiser: Who were they? 

Antoninus: I don t remember their names. We mingled with them a little. 
AS soon as they got wind of this thing that Rexroth was 


Antoninus: starting, they began to make overtures to capture what they 
thought was the youth. Now they were fairly strong among a 
certain substratum of the Italians in San Francisco. I 
attended a couple of their meetings which were wonderful 
family affairs. There was great gaiety and communal dancing 
which was wonderful, rather intoxicating. 
Teiser: When was this? 
Antoninus: This would be 1947. 
Teiser: Where were the meetings held? 
Antoninus: Well, there was a hall there. I read there once. It was 

off toward where St. Dominic s is now. I can t remember the 
name. Anyhow, these movements never really made it. This 
was especially true because they were extremely hostile to 
religion. This new anarchism was both religiously oriented 
and pacificatory. The old anarchism was anti-clerical, ath 
eistic, and militant. The two factors widely separated them. 
There was not too much real communication. 
Teiser: This was the same group of anarchists that Adrian Wilson 

referred to when he said that he used the anarchists press? 
Antoninus: Yes, this Rexroth group of anarchists. Yes, they printed 
The Ark on it. I participated in this group, but I was so 
tired of group activity after those years in the camp that 
I just wanted to get away. I just drew off. iVhen I drew off, 
I drew off as much to get out of the city. You would think 
that I had had my belly full of nature, but even so I was 
always close to nature and I needed it. I began going up to 


Antoninus: Treesbank very fio;x j Hly Lo establish my press and to set up 
a way of lif<-. However, the situation was not right even 
there, even with the Tylers; J was a "stranger" among them. 
The financial time was not right. Th< re was not enough money 
for us all to live properly or to have proper distinction 
Between us. This problem was always there. Also, I was 
under a depressed spirit due to the problem of rny marriage. 
That had not been settled yet. I can look back and see now 
that this pul ! on my spirit was not due to last too long. 
This pull on my spirit would have to lift. 

It was then that 1 met Mary Fabilli. I had met her before, 
but I really met her then. I remember one night, it must 
have been October or early November in 1946 because Philip 
Lamantia s book Erotic Poems had just been brought out by 
Berne Porter. Kenneth had a coming out party for him at his 
house. I came down from Treesbank to participate in that. 
It was then that I fell in love with Mary Fabilli. 

Berkeley and Printing 

Antoninus: When I would come to town, I would stay with the Watkins over 
in Berkeley. They were old friends from Selma. I remember 
that for a period of some weeks I did not go back to Trees- 
bank. I had fallen in love with Mary Fabilli and I stayed to 
do my courting. Then I did go up and wrote a series of poems 
up there in December, I guess it was, to Mary. Then I just 


Antoninus: pulled my stakes out of there and came down to Berkeley. 

Teiser: Had you established your press then under the name Equinox 

Antoninus: I had not figured it out yet. 

Teiser: Had you done any printing? 

Antoninus: No, I had just gotten the press up and had hardly pulled a 

proof. I did not even have my type. The tympan and frisket 
problem of the hand press had to be solved. We had gotten 
the dimensions on the press and had taken those dimensions 
up to Cascade Locks, and in the blacksmith s shop up there 
I had the blacksmith make those tympan and friskets for me. 
They had not yet been put on the press, though, so I really 
could not do any printing then. I was pretty close to 
getting it lined up though. Then in the spring of 1947, 
Dick Brown, another C. 0., who had been in camp with me, 
helped me to move the press down to Ashby Avenue at Mary s 
place. It was there that we moved the press in and set up 
shop. Then is when I named it the Equinox Press. I got the 
tympan and frisket fixed on there. 

In the meantime what happened was that I had to get to work, 
so I first worked at the Co-op as a laborer unloading their 
box cars and things like that. Then, as a stroke of luck, 
I got a job as a janitor at U. C. This did not pay very well, 
but it was on campus and at least had the mental climate. I 
worked pretty hard there. I was working in the library as a 


Antoninus: janitor, in the U. C. library. I worked there for two or 
three months. Then I got another job and shifted over to 
the U. C. Press as a janitor. That turned out to be a gold 
mine for me because just when I was breaking into printing 
on my own, it put me right in the center so that I could 
watch all those printers and perfect the knowledge that 1 
had gained both in my father s shop and at the- Untide Press. 
Being a janitor, when I got caught up in my work, 1 could go 
up there and study all those specimens and really shape up 
and perfect my taste, which is the most important part of a 
printer. If you don t get that job done, no matter how good 
your craftsmanship becomes, your work will not survive. It 
takes the aesthetic dimension to make it survive, so it was 
really a stroke of incredible luck as I look back and see 
itprovidence I would say now-- that I was kind of drawn to 
that place where I could really work along at my own level but 
not really be involved. I was close enough to it and yet had 
enough separation from it that I was not coerced by productive 
norms. I could contemplate day after day. I could move in 
the atmosphere of printing without being under the pressure 
of its norms. That was exactly what I needed for my tempera 
ment at that time. 

Teiser: You were working in the press when it was operating? 

Antoninus: Yes, the night shift would be running. The night shift would 
run from four o clock until midnight. My janitor shift was 
the same time. 

Teiser: Sam Farquhar had died by then? 

Antoninus: No, he was still alive. 

Tciser: Did you know him at all? 

Antoninus: (laughter) The funny part of it was when I got the- Guggen 
heim Award. They immediately wanted to go down to the U. C. 
Press. The Life man got on the phone and called. I had 
never met Sam Farquhar; I had cleaned his office every night 
for two years, but I would say hello distantly to him if we 
would happen to meet. As soon as Life magazine got on the 
phone, "Yes, yes, yes." He was always a great one for any 
publicity to the press. First thing you know, 1 was standing 
down there before the cameras buddy-buddy with him. I was 
so amused by that . 

Teiser: Did you learn from anyone there at the press? 

Antoninus: Oh, yes. Binders especially. Part of my job was to clean 
the bindery up on the top floor. Joe Baxley, I remember; 
he worked the linotype night shift. Then there was a wonder 
ful craftsman there whose name I forget. The greatest of all 
was an old binder who worked up in the finishing department, 
Vic George. We got a wonderful friendship going. He taught 
me many things about binding. Mostly though it was my 
position of vantage where I could stand and watch those things 
done. Otherwise, as far as the hand press itself goes, I had 
to get it all out of books. 
Now, I want to clarify one thing historically. When 1 had 


Antoninus: first gotten out of the camp, 1 went to Wilder Bent ley. He- 
was not printing then but he talked to me about it. About 
this same time, Jim Hart had gotten back from the war. He- 
wanted to do something on his press. It was that Ode to 
the Virginian Voyage, that Drayton thing. So Wilder 
Bentley got us together in order to see how we would do. 
Jim Hart was a little afraid of me because I was a beatnik. 
My hair was down to my shoulders, I had a great big Latin 
Quarter style hat. He was a little bit spookey around me 
because he is an Appollonian and I am a Dionysian. fiut 
after awhile we got to working together. 

That summer Wilder Bentley had to take a job. Usually he 
taught at Stockton. The College of the Pacific was where 
he had been teaching, but that summer he had to work in a 
cannery. He was very tired and could not devote too much 
time to us. He kind of threw us overboard once he intro 
duced us. I went over to Jim Hart s place. This would be 
in the summer of 1946 before I had gone to Treesbank. It 
was here that we printed Drayton s Ode to the Virginian 
Voyage that we worked on. Neither of us knew anything about 
hand press printing. We were struggling on it together. 

Teiser: You and Hart? 

Antoninus: Yes, we got through it and he gave it out as a Christmas 

Teiser: He had done, by then, more printing than you had though? 

Antoninus: No, I had done far more printing than he had done, but not on 

a hand press. It was a problem of getting over the hand press. 
Wilder did not really have a chance to show me much. Some 
people say that Wilder Bentley taught me to hand print; that 
just is not true. He introduced me to the physical dimensions 
of the hand press. He shoved me hew it was set up and how it 

had to work. He gave me a little demonstration of what the 
mechanism looked like and how it operated. Also, the day we 
were over at Hart s trying to print, we did not get started 
because he said that Jim Hart had set the type all wrong, so 
we spent the day resetting that type. That, you know, is what 
knocked that out. Jim Hart and I, the only day that he had 
to give to us, hardly got to hand printing at all. Then after 
that, we just had to go by what he could remember of what 
Wilder had shown him before the war. We were babes in the 
woods together. That is all the handpress printing instruction 
actually that I had; the rest of it I had to get from books, 
I actually could have gotten more help from Wilder if I had 
asked. However, I have a kind of stand-offishness or pride 
that makes it difficult for me to ask favors. If people come 
and help me, I am overjoyed, but I can not step out of myself 
and ask. This is why I was so fortunate that I found myself 
working in the U. C. Press when I did. I would not have been 
able to master the preparation. 

Anyhow, then I began to get books out of the U. C. library on 
hand press printing. I read every one that I could get hold of. 


Antoninus: I went into every detail of it. I learned almost every detail 
of the whole art from books: paper making, type founding, ink 
making, how to operate the press. I read all the manuals in 
order to get the history of them all, in order to get oriented. 
At this point I was obsessed. I devoured them like a man 
obsessed . 
Teiser: Is this your habit, to get interested in one subject and read 

everything about it? 

uitoninus: Yes, I get obsessed with the subject and come out the other end. 
Then it is behind me. My printing is now something of the past. 
I don t print anymore. Anyway, that is the way it was with 
hand press printing. 

First I printed the Prospectus. Now the Prospectus is very 
important because I learned to print on the hand press on that. 
Also what I learned to do was to damp paper, which was the 
hardest part. If I had seen someone do that, that would have 
saved me incredible hours. Not having seen it though, I could 
only experiment with it. I would get it too wet, or Loo dry, 
or uneven, and not know how. Then I would put weights on it 
and wrinkle the paper, or it would get moldy. It was not 
until I was way up in the order working on the Psalter that I 
really perfected the practice of damping paper so that I knew 
what it was supposed to be, what was ideal. By that time I had 
printed two books and I knew what properly damped paper was. 
Before that I did not know what it was. I had to discover what 
it was. I was lucky to get through my first two books as well 

Antoninus: as I did. At that time I was overly a perfectionist. I did 

not understand that part of myself then. I had always thought 
that 1 was a kind of Dionysian character, you know, perfection 
ism had no place. I know now that I am a Virgo and that Virgos 
are perfectionists by nature. Because I was dealing on these 
other more charismatic subjects like poetry, that perfection 
did not come in. You would think that I would have been an 
Yvor Winters metrical man with every syllable in its place, 
and if you drop one it is a mortal sin approach, you know, 
that he has to the art of poetry. On the other hand, I was 
Jeffersian and Lawrencian when it came to poetry. This is why 
I could never understand myself as a Virgoian. 
When I got to printing though, suddenly, I was over on my 
perfectionist side. I had abandoned the clam action press at 
Waldport. It could not print well enough for me. It was not 
total enough; it was not maximum; it was not perfection. When 
I began to perfect the work of the hand press, the great love 
that I had for it was that it was capable of absolute per 
fection in printing. I exacted perfection of it; I struggled 
with it and wrestled with it until I exacted perfection of it. 
This was not only in terms of production but also in terms of 


Influence of Mary Fabilli and Kenneth Rexroth 

Antoninus: I was carrying two things along: poetry and printing. Without 
Mary Fabilli, I would never have applied for the Guggenheim 
award because of my anarchist contempt for foundation money, 
"tainted money" as they used to call it. Mary Fabilli changed 
me in many ways; she revived my spirit; she took the pall, the 
negation and gloom off of me. The war had starved me in some 
way. I was disillusioned with America because of the things 
that I had to suffer. We were not paid there, you know, our 
money was denied us by the government. We put in those three 
and one half years of labor without any recompense. It left a 
kind of scar, the scar that injustice leaves. Then there was 
the break-up of my marriage. 

Mary took all that away from me. She lifted that off of me 
and I found my spirit again. I rejoiced once again in my life. 
I came out of myself and began to orient back into the culture, 
began for the first time to move into the culture in a way 
that I was supposed to as a man. It was she that talked me 
into applying for the Guggenheim. I had a quarrel with Rexroth 
about this time. Once again, Mary Fabilli was the cause of this. 
Rexroth saw me as kind of an Abraham Lincoln character. I was 
in a way the central hope for his beat generation. He seemed 
to see in me the qualities of earthiness, of non-sophistication, 
of innocence, of a Lincolnesque ruggedness, and yet, a great 
sorrowing spirit at the same time, a man who had suffered in a 


Antoninus: war, a man who had been locked up for his convictions. All 
these things made a terrific image from Rexroth s point of 
view. He saw the political possibilities of this too. He 
beganwell, Mary Fabilli cut right across this whole- line. 
She began to civilize me; she took the long hair away; the 
great hat disappeared. First thing you know, I came out in 
a sport suit. I remember the turning night was early in 1947. 
I got a call from Rexroth saying that Cyril Connolly, the 
editor of Horizon, showed up in San Francisco and someone had 
directed him to Rexroth. He wanted to meet some of the 
writers around and would we come over. So Mary and I went 
over; that night I arrived there, not in my hat, not in my 
long hair, not in my forester coat, my green forester outfit. 
All of that was gone. 

Teiser: You had worn a green forester s outfit? 
Antoninus: Yes, or maybe it was suntans with boots rather than shoes. 

Mostly though I remember the Pendleton shirt, the forester s 
coat and the big black Mennonite style hat. All these were gone 
Rexroth was so taken back. I think he wanted to introduce this 
giant man, the western man, to this sophisticated Englishman. 
He kind of turned on Mary savagely when Connolly and I were off 
in a corner together. He just accused her of emasculating me 
really, just making me civilized. Her pride is such that when 
she left there that night, she was mortally offended by this 
treatment. Of course, it meant that from that point on my 
feelings were compromised. Rexroth was a father figure to me 


Antoninus: and important to me. To have this emotional split in me 

between the wife and the father figure was extremely painful 
to me. I did not face up to it in a manly way. I only 
equivocated in it. This is another Virgoan tendency, that is 
dependent on outside polarities. It needs its centers of 
reference there to be pretty well established. It senses a 
confusion between them or an ambivalence between them and 
suffers. I cannot really solve the problem. 1 could neither 
solve it between them... this whole situation in the group was 
becoming more and more ambivalent. The same thing has happened 
at the camp, the problem of the women, the confusion, the same 
thing broke out with the anarchists in San Francisco. It was 
always the woman problem which began to cut across the 
ideational lines. The emotional problems cut across the ab 
stract philosophical ones. Everything was beginning to blow up. 
As Kenneth felt this thing blowing up around him, he became 
more difficult. He became more explosive and more binding in 
his own marriage problem with his second wife which was be 
coming more acute. Finally, he just pulled up stakes and went 
to Europe. Martha went with him, and his own marriage to-- 
what is her name--he dedicated this book to her--Marie, any 
way that marriage came to an end and he was gone away for a 

couple of years. The thing that brought this to a head between 

us was when my book came out in New Directions. 

Teiser: What was the title of that book? 


Antoninus: The Residual Years. 

Teiser: What year? 

Antoninus: That was 1948. I had contracted for that book with Laughlin 
in 1947, 1946 or 1947. He had taken the manuscript. Months 
went by and nothing had happened with it. I was so deep in 
printing at that time and such a perfectionist that 1 was 
agonized over every little flaw in my printing. When the 
New Directions book came. .. .actually, I see now that from a 
publications point of view, it was a stunning book and just what 
I needed. However, there were so many flaws in it from a purely 
typographical point of view that I was outraged, my perfectionist 
nature was outraged. By this time the difficulty had already 
occurred. My whole year, in fact, had been going on with this 
ambivalence. Rexroth had written the dust jacket blurb for 
that book, which threw me right into the opposition. He wrote 
a blurb antagonistic to the academic crowd, especially people 
like the Partisan Review. My situation was that I did not want 
to get into a fight with them. I knew that I was going to get 
clobbered hard enough, but I did not want to be anybody s war 
head. I was disturbed by both of these factors. One was that 
I knew that a lot of money had been lavished on the book, but 
at the same time I could not rejoice in it the way that every 
one else did. All I could see here were the flaws. The other 
thing was that I was smarting because I felt that the dust 
jacket was injudicious, that it was unnecessarily antagonistic 


Antoninus: to the reviewers, that it was not going to really work, that 
it was not going to really amount to anything like a new 
generation or a new movement. That and I had become the 
center of attack with nothing behind me to support me. 
This is actually what happened. 

I wrote Kenneth a letter too which made him angry. Then he- 
called up and asked me to come over to have a party for the 
coming out of the book. The problem between he and Mary was 
such though that I could only decline. I had not been to 
visit him for an awfully long time because when I took the 
night shift at the press, I could not get out much. That was 
my excuse. All these were just equivocations because I would 
have found the ways if the situation had been right. I made 
these escuses. These excuses went on and on until they were 
no longer tenable. Then "Poof!" the whole situation blew up. 
After that Kenneth radically began to break, break, break 
with his friends. Then he went to Europe. 

Conversion to Catholicism 

Antoninus: In 1949, it was at that same time, it was through Mary that I 
got in contact with Catholicism. My pantheism had suffered 
a stunning blow at the collapse of the first marriage because 
that pantheism was based on a kind of religious sexuality which 
was really brought up short in the breakdown of that rdat ion- 
ship. In a way the whole strength of my pantheism adhesion 


Antoninus: had been shocked by the human failure. It was as if my intent 
to make a religiousness out of sex alone had come a cropper on 
the bare human personal relationship. The fact of the per 
sonal relationship disrupting in the middle of this transcending 
mysticism, sexual mysticism, it was like one part of my nature 
saying, "Hold on a minute!" This is another thing that Mary 
Fabilli healed because, being a Catholic, it was the personal 
element that was always the first concern with her. It was 
the failure of the personal element which had been the flaw 
in my first marriage because I was not capable of a true 
enough personal relationship. 

Teiser: Did this take you away from Lawrence then? 
Antoninus: Mary Fabilli did, yes. It was my time with Mary Fabilli 
that broke both my Jeffersian pantheism and my Lawrencian 
erotic mysticism. She personalized this, her whole touch 
was to personalize, to humanize, she had that laughing 
sensibility of the personal dimension in the human physical 
and natural context, but a cultural thing. The City of God 
is a cultural thing. When I was a pantheist, I was off in 
the woods, the great Jeffersian cliff-hanger. It was this 
that was the stepping stone to my conversion to Catholicism. 
It was her touch there. Also the intuition to which her 
course led me is that my mystical needs, my religious needs, 
which had not been really met in my pantheism, could only 
find their solution in the more permeable human context, and 


Antoninus: in a ritual and a rite, and a mythos that was established in 
a historical continuity. Of course, Catholicism, with its 
sense of sacramental presence, has a sense of immediate 
physical contact with God through the sacraments rather than 
the Protestant ethical abstractness, the separation between 
man and God on an ethical dimension. The distinction but 
relation to God through a kind of abstract ethical dimension 
that you get, at least in contemporary Protestantism, never 
could get near to me because it was not really physical. It 
was not until I found some point of connection between my 
physical needs and the tangible mystic that I was able to go 
forward in another religious dimension. 

As soon as this occurred, as soon as her work with my mind 
had achieved a triumph and I became a believer, then our 
relationship was doomed because we both had valid marriages 
behind us. The Church could not sanction our union because 
it could not be regularized in terms of our Church code. 
Teiser: Are there ways that that could have been done? 
Antoninus: With a little more documentation, it might have been possible 
in her case. When she married, her first marriage was in 
the Church, although she no longer believed. She had the 
ceremony in the Church in order to satisfy her parents. 
There is no way to prove that. In my own case, although 
I had not been baptized, my previous wife had. There was not 
really any way on either side. It just meant separation. 


Antoninus: She moved away but left me there because the press was there. 
She took a room in a rooming house. I stayed in the Ashby 
Avenue house, which was her house and where she is now. She 
realized that I needed that context and that she could adjust 
better in that period than I, so she graciously let me stay. 
I finished the binding of A Privacy of Speech then. I had 
printed that up through 1948 and the first part of 1949. The 
colophon says the finish was on Candlemas Day, the second of 
February. Then I began to master the binding. 

Guggenheim Grant 
Antoninus: Then the first of May my Guggenheim had come through, so I 

left my job with the University Press. In those few months 

I had learned how to bind. 
Teiser: Was A_Priya_cy of Speech the only book that you printed in 


Antoninus: Yes, and that first broadside, The Announcement. 
Teiser: How many copies of A Privacy of Speech did you print? 
Antoninus: One hundred. 

Teiser: Did you stay in Berkeley the year that you had the Guggenheim? 
Antoninus: Yes. I sat up there and wrote like mad, just wrote like crazy. 
Teiser: Did you write more than you printed? 
Antoninus: Yes, I was binding most of it. Trying to get started after the 

binding, trying to get started on a new work. I was confused 

about what I should print. I wanted to go forward in the line 


Antoninus: of book. 

Teiser: Your Guggenheim was for your poetry, not your printing? 

Antoninus: That s right, although I probably could have gotten it on 

either. But I did write more than I had ever written before 
in any one year, anyhow. 

Teiser: Had it ever occurred to you to print for profit? 

Antoninus: Never. It never has occurred to me, I could have at that 

time. Rexroth just wanted me in the worst way to set up shop, 
attend to jobs and earn my living that way instead of being a 
janitor. He could not understand that side of me. He did not 
know what I had to perfect, though, and I did. He understands 
it now. He would be able to see the work and understand it, 
but at that time he did not know what my goals were. He did 
not know what my needs were. I did not have any goals really; 
I just had needs. These I had to discover out of the raw 
materials of the hand press and then produce them. 
After the Guggenheim was over, I had to do something. I did 
not want to go back to my job because I had become too apos 
tolic at that time. I was already thinking in terms of an 
order. Once the marriage again was separated, these two 
truncations from profound loves in a three year period there 
were great shocks to my psyche. 


Catholic Worker House 
Antoninus: I knew my mystical needs were going to take me into a much 

more concrete realization of the inner life of the Church. 

I was already thinking of an order but I could not find one 

that was right, so I drifted down to this Catholic Worker 


A priest named Father Dugan was down at St. Mary s Church 

in Oakland at the Parish where this Catholic Worker House 

was. He more or less told me that I was to go down there. 

He said, "I am going to solve your problem for you. You need 
someone to tell you what to do. You go down to the Catholic 

Worker House." So I went down; this must be about April of 
1950. It was not until later in the fall that I got the 

press moved out of the Ashby house. The reason that I had 
to give up the house too was that a crisis occurred in Mary s 
family that looked as if she was going to have to ask her 
mother and her brother to move in so she needed her house 
for that. It did not work out that way, but anyhow my whole 
process of moving out of the Ashby house was hinged around 
all these factors. 

I went down there and once again I found myself moving this 
great, enormous press. I had moved it up to Treesbank; I 
had moved it back from Treesbank; now I was moving it down 
into Oakland. Here I changed the name from the Equinox to 
the Seraphim Press. 

Antoninus: Now the Seraphim is one of the orders of angels. It is the 

order that of all the angels is the highest. I think the two 
highest orders of the angels are the Seraphim and the Cherubim. 
The Franciscans have adopted the Seraphim as their "mascot." 
The Dominicans have adopted the Cherubim. The Cherubim were 
supposed to move more by knowledge and the Seraphim moved 
more by love. My instincts at that time were very much more 
Franciscan than Dominican. I was a natural born Franciscan, 
a natural born beatnik type of Franciscan. The Dominicans, 
with their real structured intellectuality and what not, were 
too Appollonian for me. This was a terrible ordeal down there, 

Teiser: Albert Sperisen, in his interview in this series, said when 
he first met you, you had a big press in a shed in Oakland 
that was barely larger than the press itself. 

Antoninus: Yes, the one that Al Sperisen saw was in the little back 
shed of the Catholic Worker House. 

Teiser: He said that there was hardly any space for you to operate 
the press; but you did print there? 

Antoninus: I printed the Triptych for the Living there. 

Teiser: When did you complete that? 

Antoninus: That would be the Fall of 1950 and the Winter and Spring of 
1951 that I completed the printing. 

Teiser: How many copies of the Triptych for the Living did you print? 

Antoninus: 200, but that was a mistake, and I bound only 100, or less 
than 100 really, maybe 85. 


Teiser: Where are the rest? 

Antoninus: I burned them. 

Teiser: You culled the best? 

Antoninus: Yes. I did not bind any there. I bound the Triptych after 1 
got in the order. 

Teiser: Binding seems to be more important to you than to most printers. 

Antoninus: Yes, this was due to my need for an integral book, a per 
manent book, my perfectionist needs. I did not want really to 
bind; I was not too much interested in it, but I had to re 
solve my needs, which called for a completion of the thing 
that I had begun. I was carried by a kind of a teleological 
finality in achieving that binding. 

Teiser: Did you bind both of these in the same way? 

Antoninus: No, I sewed them the same way. That is, I sewed them on bands 
and worked the head bands on in the Medieval tradition. I 
think that is the first edition that has been done that way 
in hundreds of years. You see A Privacy of Speech had a vellum 
spine, but it had a decorated board. That may be what they 
call a quarter binding. The Triptych for the Living was bound 
with vellum the way William Morris used to do. Only even 
there I turned that around and did other things with it. I 
made it a more integral thing than even he had. I don t know 
why I say that. I don t even know now what I did. In both of 
these books, you see, the binding on A Privacy of Speech was 


Antoninus: flawed because I built more in it than was necessary. I got 
thin parchment vellum to sew around the end signature; so that 
the book opens stiffly. It was built too solid. It was like? 
building a block house for a chicken coop. I thought that. 
That is too extreme an analogy, but the strength was far more 
than was needed. 

Teiser: How did you distribute these two books? Did you sell them? 

Antoninus: Just directly from my place there. 

Teiser: What was the price? 

Antoninus: Each one of them was $12.50. 

Teiser: What are they bringing now? 

Antoninus: Oh, $50. I would have sold them for less than that, but 
Mary Fabilli would not hear of it. 

Teiser: It couldn t have paid for the materials. 

Antoninus: No, it didn t. 

Teiser: How long did you stay with the Catholic Worker group? 

Antoninus: 14 months. 

Teiser: What did you do? 

Antoninus: The men did the house chores but they needed .supervision. They 
needed someone there in order to keep the house going. Carroll 
McCool was the man in charge of the house. He was the important 
figure at that time because he introduced me to the mystical 
life, the spirit. He is an ex-Trappist. He introduced me to 
the new spiritual life with a new dimension, a life of prayer. 
He taught me how to really sustain a prolonged period of 


Antoninus: prayer and it served me in great stead when I got into the 
order. It got me through many crises that if he had not 
given me that background, I would not have been able to find 
my way through. It also got me through down there. There 
was not any real work to do. 
Teiser: You mean for you and him? 

Antoninus: Yes, I was his assistant. So we had plenty of time for prayer. 
The first months I was there, that is about all we did, sus 
tained prayer. After awhile the other side of my nature began 
to come back. As I explained, I do these things in this ob 
sessive way until I carry it to a breaking point, either I 
break down or I master the thing. Then I go out and do a 
new thing. 

By that time Father Osborn, who was the Dominican who was 
my spiritual advisor, said that the time had come for me to 
see the side that I had to get back to. I should go back to 
my craft, so that was when I moved my press down there and 
printed my book. The life of prayer kind of tapered off and 
the return to the craft began. 

Dominican Order and Psalter 
Teiser: Did you go directly from the Catholic Worker house into the 

Antoninus: St. Albert s College in Oakland, yes, in May of 1951. Then 

that fall I moved the press again for the last time, from the 


Antoninus: Catholic Worker house to St. Albert s. Then I began to print 
the Psalter there, the Novum Psalterium Pii XII, the new 
Psalter of Pius the Twelfth, it is called. 

Teiser: That is the project that was incomplete? 

Antoninus: Yes. 

Teiser: What was the history of that? 

Antoninus: As I look back on it from a psychological point of view, I can 
see that what had happened was that I was captured by the 
great work archetype. I was filled with this terrific idealism 
in my work, and I wanted to do some great work to contribute in 
some great way to the life of the Church both as a writer and 
as a craftsman. Being in the order and in my monastic phase, 
it was that monastic side rather than my literary side, my 
charismatic side that was winning out. It was more of a 
complement to my monastic psychology than the writing of poetry. 
So I conceived this plan. In 1945 Pius the Twelfth had approved 
a new Latin translation of the Psalms, There had not been an 
improved translation since the Vulgate, which was almost 1500 
years before. I saw this as a great moment for a printer. I 
also saw that the Mainz Psalter was coming up; the quinti- 
centennial of the Mainz Psalter would be coming up in 1957. This 
was in 1951. I thought that in six, actually five--I could not 
hope to begin before 1952--years I could produce my book in time 
for the Quinticentenary of the Mainz Psalter. I got permission 
to do that, although the order told me that they could not put 
any money into it. 


Toiser: I think you have described the physical set-up in St. Albert s 
College in this article in the Quarterly Newsletter of the 
Book Club of California for the summer of 1954. 

Antoninus: Yes, 1 really spelled it out pretty much what rny whole plan was 
there. I also spelled out the difficulties thai arose, my 
final perfecting of my printing knowledge. Each book brought 
a different kind of a struggle with it. The first was the 
sheer mastery of the technique, the second was an attempt to 
expand the technique into a larger production, doing 200 rather 
than 100, which failed because I could not keep my quality up. 
The third was the attempt to integrate that knowledge finally 
into a consummate whole. 

The other article that I had written before that, called 
"Latter-Day Hand Press," in the closing pages of that I spoke 
of the need of the printers of this area to return to the 
attempts of the twenties to try to produce something like the 
Grabhorn Whitman or the Nash Dante. I proclaimed to my fellow 
printers that we are not carrying through. We are being 
diverted by printing slick little keepsakes and things like 
that, but we are not offering ourselves to the greatest. I 
said a noble failure is greater than many trivial successes. 
Teiser: That was in the Book Club Quarterly Newsletter of spring 1950. 
Antoninus: Oh, yes. In a way I was taking that challenge up myself. 

Although I knew that 1 might fail, I also knew that I had to 
begin in some way and try. 


Teiser: How many copies and pages were you planning? 

Antoninus: 50 copies, about 300 pages altogether, I guess it would have- 
come to. This was folio size. That was a big challenge 
because 1 had never worked with folio size before. By work 
ing on quarto size, you could work and turn the sheets. You 
would damp once, print from head to head, turn the sheet 
over and print the other side, then dry. This way I had to 
work at one side and then work the other side. It required 
a totally different method of handling the paper and keeping 
the moisture constant. Also by this time my standards had 
gone up a notch or two. I knew that the paper had to be a 
lot drier than I had been printing it in order to get the 
proper degree of crispness into the paper to make the im 
pression just right. This meant that your handling of your 
damping had to be far more subtle. 

It was printing the Paalter, especially in the experiments 
with the first runs, that I really finally centered in and 
got to where I could perfect; I knew that I was able to 
achieve what I wanted in the damping of the paper for the 
first time. 

Teiser: How far did you get with it? 

Antoninus: Well, I did not get very far. I think that the page numbers 
go up to 70. It was the first third. You see I was working 
in Latin, which I did not know. At the start T was using 
those ae_ and c& diphthongs that are together. Later, I de 
cided that those were too late, that typographically in many 

Antoninus: ways it would be better, more pure, if I did not use those 

and if I used the i instead of the j. 
Teiser: What type were you using? 

Antoninus: Oh, that whole story of the Goudy New Style I spelled out in 
the Introduction to the Psalter. I had these three different 
holdings. I had my own, which I got from Ted Freedman who had 
gotten it from the--anyway, the person who had bought it new 
was Wilder Bentley. He had sold it to some press. Ted Freedman 
had gotten it from them, and I got it from him. One or two big 
cases of it. It was not enough to set up twelve full pages, 
though, so I had to find more of it. The Grabhorns were good 
enough to lend me theirs. Then over and above that, I borrowed 
from the University of California Press through Joe Baxley. 
I could never ask for myself, but Joe Baxley came along like a 
guardian angel just in time. Well, I had to keep all these 
types separate when I was working. I had to keep all of these 
separate, set so far with one, mark that place, then go on 
and set with another. This was a great bother, but the type 
prints beautifully. I think the success of the Grabhorn 
Whitman lies in that. I think I discovered that there is some 
relation between the type face and ink in that. The surface 
tension and the ink on the type have something to do with it. 
There is a boldness in the print which a narrower type will not 
give. I don t think that is generally understood. I think its 
beauty on the press is that with the best ink, it is almost 


Antoninus: perfect. It has something to do with the amount of area 

occupied. Anyway it really prints. Ed Grabhorn says the same 
thing. He says the press-work achieved in some of those pages 
is apogee; I believe it. It reached a point of perfection. 

Teiser: Did you print fifty of each page? 

Antoninus: I printed 60, but with spoilage the edition came to 48. I 
worked and worked and worked, up until the winter of 1954. 
Then the whole project blew sky high. I just reached the 
terminus point and could not sustain it up to the completion. 
I can look back now, and knowing what I know now, I can say 
that I should have finished it; I should have gone forward 
and I d have done it. 

The monastic psychology, which was the dominant impress when 
I began it, began to break down after several years because 
it was an artificial thing, an imposed thing. Monasticism, 
as I was trying to lead it, can not be reimposed on the modern 
sensibility. I am a man of my own time, and my own self began 
to break through. The false projection on a merely attributed 
monasticism could not sustain that work. I should not have 
tried such a big one. 

Teiser: What happened to the pages of the book then? 

Antoninus: I wrote to Dawson s Book Shop in Los Angeles and asked if we 
could market it as a fragment. You see, the thing that 
diverted me at this point is that I conceived the idea that I 
wanted to be a priest rather than a brother. This would mean 


Antoninus: that I would have to come over to this house here in Kent fie Id 
which was the clerical novitiate at that time. So I thought 
I would abandon my press for a greater vocation. This is one 
of the subtle ways by which you can get out from under some 
thing. You can find something greater. Then everyone will 
be compelled to say that you did not fail, that you advanced 
to something nobler. 

This is what I cooked up in my own unconscious. I cooked up 
this higher state which would deliver me from this terrible 
burden and also from the fear of failure, the fear to admit 
to the world, ... already this book was becoming celebrated 
among printers. The fear of failure was very great although 
I did not understand this at that time. I conceived this 
higher vocation then which no one could impugn me for. I 
asked my superiors and they said, "Yes." They were not 
really convinced by it, but I kept the heat on until I talked 
them into it. Finally they said that I could try it. So I 
abandoned my Psalter and made arrangements to market, it as a 
fragment. Then Mrs. Doheney came into the picture. She 
bought the sheets from them. Mrs. Doheney is the great book 
woman. She was down in Los Angeles. She bought the sheets 
from them 

Teiser: From the Fathers or from Dawson? 

Antoninus: From Dawson. She had it bound at the Lakeside Bindery in 

Teiser: How was it bound? 


Antoninus: It is bound in full Morocco. They waited a year to find the; 
right leather. Al Sperisen told me that it must have cost 
$75 a copy to bind. 

Teiser: Where did the copies go then? 

Antoninus: She gave them to institutions. Each one was hand Inscribed with 
a beautiful inscription to whoever was to receive it. Number 
One went to the Pope, Pope Pius the Twelfth. Number Two wenL 
to me, and Number Three went to Cardinal Mclntyre. I. always 
jokingly say that shows where I stand in the Church. As far as 
I know, none went to individuals. 

Teiser: What year was it finally distributed? 

Antoninus: This was Christmas of 1955. I had sold them in the spring of 
1954 so most of that time was just waiting for the leather. 

Teiser: Did you sell them for anywhere near the actual cost of 

Antoninus: I think the arrangement was that I would get $10 a copy and 

the book store would get $10 a copy. We would put a $5 bind 
ing on it, and then there was $5 because a new title page 
had to be printed. We thought we would get Saul Marks to do 

Teiser: Did you? 

Antoninus: Yes, he did it. We thought $5 a copy would cover that, $5 to 

bind it, $10 to me, and $10 to the bookseller. I think that is 
the way it was set up. When Mrs. Doheney came into the act, 
I resented all these things because she is a millionaire. What 

Antoninus: I was doing at one level to expedite things, well, 1 was 

profoundly distressed with the arrangements that went on down 
there between Dawson s and Mrs. Doheney. I felt that the Dawscms 
had just in a way scooped me out. They did not really make it 
clear to me what they were doing. Then the first thing I knc-w 
was that the transaction had been made and she had taken over 
the whole project. 

Teiser: You had not been in on any of the discussions in any way? 
Antoninus: I certainly did not know what was going on. I might have been 
informed, but not in any way that I could have grasped it. It 
was something that was done. I think it was done that way 
because their dependency on her was so great. They were her 
bookseller and they had done thousands and thousands of dollars 
of business for her. When she began to move into that context, 
there was very little resistance possible there. I was really 
distressed by the way that the whole thing turned out. 

Teiser: Are you pleased with the way the books themselves turned out? 

Antoninus: No, this is another thing. It is like the New Directions book. 
Anyone looks at it and thinks that it is a staggering achieve 
ment. I only see it in terms of my vision and I realize that 
it is not mine. 

Teiser: How about the Jeffers poem that you wrote that someone else 
later printed? Do you feel that way about that? 

Antoninus: Yes, it is not mine. 

Teiser: How can you go on writing poetry and having others print it then? 

7 3 
Antoninus: I don t aver to that. My sights are focused on another 

place. I don t let it get to me. But, a piece of mine:, my 
own writing, like this Psalter is the most painful example; 
I would never have treated the title pages or the preliminaries 
the way Saul Marks did. In a way the book is a kind of com 
petition between the machine press and the hand press. He had 
a terrible job to do. He had in some way to approximate the 
press work in that. Some people think that he did. Some 
people think that by printing dry on the very same paper that 
I printed on he showed that the machine press could equal the 
finest hand craftsman. I don t believe that. I believe that 
the machine touch is omnipresent in those preliminary pages, 
and I believe that the hand press is omnipresent in the hand 
printing. See, he used the monotype to set the type of the 
preliminaries too. I had written this long introduction. 
That is another thing that made me sore is the way they tore 
out my essay. 

Teiser: It is not printed as you wrote it? 

Antoninus: No, and although I admit that I tacitly gave them permission, 
I thought it was a financial thing with them. I found out 
later that it was just that Mrs. Doheney did not want the 
parts that I had lifted from this "Printer as Contemplative," 
simply because it had appeared somewhere else. Then I got 
sore again. I wanted to make it my last will and testament 
to the craft of printing. The way she cut it back down, it 


Antoninus: could not be that. I feel cheated on so many different levels. 
You see, I had it coming though. I asked for this when I 
abandoned it. I did not have enough self-knowledge to know 
what I was doing and I should have. 

Teiser: What happened to your Press? Where is it now? 

Antoninus" It is still at St. Albert s. 

Teiser: Has anyone used it since? 

Antoninus: No, I came over here to Kentfield and tried for six months, 
here in the clerical novitiate. It became increasingly 
apparent to me that this was not my vocation. Then the full 
force of failure really had to come at me because not only 
had I failed one thing, but I had failed two. I went back 
there with neither my Psalter nor my priesthood. This was a 
real stripping down. It was a real facing up to myself that 
I had to go through and realize that I had just been the 
creature of fantasies and projections. I could only leave 
behind :ne fragments and not completed works unless I really 
shaped up. It was a great turning point in my life. 


Teiser: Had you been continuing to write poetry? 

Antoninus: I had. My last poems that I wrote were over here in Kentfield, 
the clerical novitiate in 1954, the fall of 1954. Those were 
the last poems in The Crooked Lines of God, which the University 
of Detroit published. 


Teiser: When was that? 

Antoninus: 1959. I printed that at St. Albert s but it was not on the 
hand press; it was on the machine press. After I founded my 
press, they began to beef up the press and brought over that 
machine press from St. Dominic s in San Francisco. 
Teiser: Do they print there now? 
Antoninus: Yes, there is a brother here who commutes over there every 

day and prints. 
Teiser: For the order? 
Antoninus: Yes. I should be working there probably, but I have lost out. 

I am working on other things now. 
Teiser: Do you write regularly now? 

Antoninus: Yes, I get up every morning and try to write. Mostly I am 
writing prose now. I am working on my book on Jeffers, and 
finishing a book on the assassination of Kennedy from an 
archetypal point of viewthe Cain and Abel myth of rival 
brothers and the solution to that, the enigma of the 

Teiser: So you are writing relatively little poetry and more prose? 
Antoninus: The last poetry I wrote was early this year (1965). I 

finished my book called The Rose of Solitude. 
Teiser: Is that to be published? 

Antoninus: Yes, I don t have it through the censors of the order yet, but 
Doubleday is beginning to needle me for another book. I am 
ready to have it go. 


Teiser: Who printed your book on Robinson Jeffers, The Poet is Dead? 

Antoninus: Auerhahn Press in San Francisco. That was printed in 
February of 1963, I think. 

Teiser: Is that your last published work? 

Antoninus: Yes, as I mentioned earlier, Oyez in Berkeley is just bringing 
out a book of mine called Single Source. It is my first three 
books reprinted: These Are The Ravens, San Joaquin, and The 
Masculine Dead. None of them ever had any general circulation. 
I ll be happy to see those put back into circulation. 

Teiser: When you started your study for the priesthood, you came over 
here. Then did you return to St. Albert s? 

Antoninus: Yes, I went back there about Easter time of 1955. 

Teiser: What were your duties then? 

Antoninus: Well, I had to return to the regular duties of bellman work 
and porter duty and things like that. I flung myself into 
trying to finish my autobiography. I was writing a prose 
version at that time, kind of a model of the Confessions of 
St. Augustine. That was my model for that. I had begun that 
before I left there. After I went back there, I kind of 
sustained myself through that crisis by pouring myself into 
that prose work. It turned out to be only a fragment too. 
I just had to let it hang. 

Teiser: Is it still laid aside? 

Antoninus: That is another story. This autobiography I began to write 

about the same time that I began to print the Psalter. I was 


Antoninus: writing poetry through here too. I was not writing when I 
began in a very sustained way. I just began something that 
would be a kind of a sketch. Then I would write something 
else that would tie in. Then the first thing you know, 1 
would say, "Well, maybe I really ought to try to organize 
this material into an autobiography of some kind." By the 
time I had gotten over here and the vision of this thing 
began to crest, I was throwing myself into it. 1 was 
throwing all my creative energies into the writing of this 
autobiography. I called it Prodigious Thrust after a quo 
tation I found someplace. I have never been able to find it 
again, but the quotation goes something like this: "The 
whole of creation seeks to transcend itself, to go out of 
itself in a prodigious thrust at the absolute." So I took 
that "prodigious thrust" out of there and used it as a title. 
This book is really the story of meeting Mary Fabilli and my 
life with her, and the crisis of conversion, and the separation 
in order to enter the Church. Somehow I had the feeling that 
this personal crisis was the most dramatic single element 
in the whole narrative. If I could focus on that, perhaps 
some clue would emerge. 

When I began it I felt that many of my friends were profoundly 
shocked. It was bad enough for them that I should enter the 
Church of Rome, but the thing that really shocked them was 


Antoninus: when I separated from Mary Fabilli in order to take up an 
abstract religious idea. I sensed this. I sensed it in 
Joyce and Adrian Wilson. I sensed it in everyone, this 
stunned alienation that 1 had from them. Somehow I wanted 
to justify that or at least make it comprehensible. I began 
to write this book then. 

As soon as I began to write it, 1 told Mary Fabilli that I 
was writing it and should I show it to her? She thought a 
minute and said, "No, I don t think that you should. You 
should write it, then if it is all right with your superiors 
in the order, they should publish it. I don t want to get 
involved in whether it should or should not be published." 
I accepted that, so that gave me the freedom to write the 
whole thing out as I felt it. 

When I finished it, I showed it to Father Victor White. 
Victor White is, washe is dead nowan eminent English 
Dominican theologian who worked with Jung a lot. He has 
written a book called God and the Unconscious. Later he wrote 
one called The Unknown God , which are wonderful books for 
modern times on that kind of a synthesis of certain aspects 
of theology with modern depth psychology findings. When I 
left here and went back to St. Albert s he became kind of my 
mentor. He was teaching over there at St. Albert s. 
I showed him this book to read. He was very impressed with it 


Antoninus: and thought that it should be published. Well, I submitted 
it then to the censors. Nothing much happened with it. 
They read it, but they thought, that the book was too strong. 
Victor White himseli did not, and h i r-; authority was so 
great that, just a behind-t he-scenes talking about it, they 
were kin-) /! loath to make a decision. Anyway they decided 
that Mary f -> v > i 1 I i ; attempt to separate herself from the 
book wa s not ry realistic since she was going to be the 
one that worrd have to bear any of the repercussions that 
the book would have on the public. They decided that I 
should show the book to her and have her read it. 
I was loath to do this, but since they said that is what 
should be done, that is what 1 did. I gave it to her to 
read. Her reaction was negative. She felt that it was too 
much of an exposure of our relationship. I had gone into 
some of the sexual problems in too much detail. This is 
why she never wanted to see it in the first place because 
she knows me and she knows that I over-write, being an old 
Lawrencian. She knows that I over -write in those details 
anyhow, in order to concretize them and finalize them, to 
establish them. I did; I did not pull any punches. That is 
where the power of it lies. I knew what had to be done. If 
it were going to meet the time, then there was no use writing 
another Seven Story Mountain. The world had that. What it 


Antoninus: needed was something more near the drama of man and woman, 
and the ordeal of faith. I moved right into the center of 
that. I really hit it. It was too good; it was tough too. 
She said, "NO." Then Father White went to talk to her about 
it and convinced her that she should permit it. There is 
when the trouble began. If we could have just left it then, 
that this was her feeling about it, but from this point on, 
she became ambivalent like I was with Rexroth. When 
eminent theologians tell you that you should publish a book, 
or permit a book to be published because many souls will 
benefit by it.... Well, the book was difficult for her in 
two ways: not only because it was a naked exposure of the 
intimacies, but also I made a saint out of her in the bargain,. 
She, in a sense, in approving the work for publication, had 
to approve her own canonization in the public mind. This 
was something that she did not think she could give. So 
somebody would get to her and talk to her and she would say 
"Yes." Then they would go. A week or so they would come 
back and she would become disturbed. Finally, the relation 
ship between us just broke down. It reached the point where 
some incident occurred and she called up very disturbed 
demanding that.... Her demands would always take the form 
of increasing the amount of approval necessary for publication. 
By the end of it, she had some fantastic criterion where there 
were 12 theologians whom she would name who would have to 


Antoninus: universally approve it or she would not be able. Well, it was 
out of the question. 

She refused to publish it. They probably would have passed 
it though. Maybe they would not have. Because only Father 
White of those who had read it, even Father Vann- -Gerald 
Vann, who is also dead--he has written many books even he 
thought it held her position in jeopardy before the public. 
What happened was that a salesman was going through San 
Francisco and he stopped in at the Junipero Serra Shop, which 
is a Catholic arts goods shop on Maiden Lane. He was talking 
to Phil Burnham, who was co-owner there at that time. Phil 
mentioned this autobiography. This was a salesman for Sheed 
and Ward. He went back and told Frank Sheed in New York that 
he had heard about this book. I got this letter from Frank 
Sheed asking me to see this book. I sent it back to him, 
telling him the history of it and the impasse that it was 
in. At this time Mary Fabilli and I were out of communication. 
The whole relationship had just collapsed. That was another 
crushing impasse. 

Departure From and Return To The Order 

Antoninus: Well, my trials with the order had become very nearly a crescendo 
after my leaving here. The article on me in Time magazine Jn 
1959 mentions that 1 left the order for three weeks. 


Teiser: When was that? 

Antoninus: 1959. It mentions that I left the order for three weeks 
when they brought in television. What had happened there 
was that these series of incidents after my leaving here in 
Easter of 1955 and on through 1956--by the summer of 1956 
my point of relation to the order had reached a kind of a 
crisis. Father White was telling me that I really must 
leave, that I was deteriorating under the stress of the 
situation, that I had to get out. Yet, I could not get out. 
I could not leave. Yet, that television set formed a 
catalyst for the whole movement; it was just a symbol. I 
was clinging to the old monastic norms that every invasion 
of the world into the monastary was cutting it down, water 
ing it down, that the world was triumphing. We were jealous 
of our ancient monastic heritage. The television had 
entered every other house in the province but that one, the 
house of formation over there. When I came in one morning 
and saw them installing a television, it was the symbol that 
I needed. I just crystallized, packed up and went out. 
Teiser: Where did you go? 

Antoninus: I began to try to make another move back to the land some 
way. I went and lived with friends, the La Placas, up by 
Mills College for two or three weeks. My spiritual advisor, 
after Father White had gone back to England, was Father 


Teiser: It must have been a very trying period. 

Antoninus: It was the breaking point. After that I had to find another 

whole modality. The monasticism was gone. It would no longer 
suffice to sustain me during the period which lay ahead. After 
awhile I got in touch with Father Dugan again. He; was in 
charge of a parish, in the meantime, at a Mexican settlement 
outside of Hayward , called Decoto. He had a piece of property 
there with a shed on it. He said that I could go out there 
if I wanted to and stay there. So I began to make arrangements 
to go and live in a subsistence manner. So I went down to a 
food mill in Oakland where I got some grain and a grinder. 
I was going to go out and subsist. I went out there, and t he- 
first night out there I had a dream. A little before that, 
earlier that year, I had broken into the unconscious. That 
is to say, the whole problem had broken back in and I made 
my first real break through into the unconscious. I began 
to use the Freudian and Jungian techniques to analyze this 
material. Father White had gone so I did not have anyone to 
help me except what I could read in the books; but true to 
form, I went to the books, read everything I could get from 
the books. 

What I am trying to say is that when I got out there, my 
unconscious was in a very naked and exposed condition. I 
am not trying to explain anything away, but tho first night 


Antoninus: out there, I woke up in the middle of the night with a 
nightmare. I was terribly afraid. I just felt utterly 
naked, alone, and without any support. I had just stepped 
off into something real deep. I got up that morning and I 
went back into town. I went to St. Albert s and got hold of 
Father Thomas, the one who was my director and had said that 
it was time for me to go. I said to him, "I want to come 
back." He said, "You can not come back; you have got to go 
and see it through. Whatever it means for you, you simply 
just can not come back in." 

Well, that braced me up. I went out and spent that night 
there integrating and going on. I got through that first 
crisis point. 

He showed up that next night, which would have been my third 
night out there. It was a Friday night. He said, "Well, I 
changed my mind. I think you belong back in the order. You 
really belong there. It was a mistake for me to tell you to 
leave. I have talked it over with the Provincial and he 
thinks that you ought to come back. I have talked it 
over with the Prior and he thinks that you ought to come 

back. But mostly it s my mother, her woman s intuition. She 

is sure you belong in the order. So I have come out to 

get you." 

I said, "All right." I threw my bag in the car and we went 

back home . 


Antoninus: Then the strange thing was that the next morning I got this 
letter from Sheed and Ward telling me to fly hack to New York 
to talk about my book, which I had sent them. If that letter 
had come one day before that, I would not have gone back in. 
It would have been the sign to keep going. But the very 
fantastic event just suddenly came. I could only stand there 
in awe realizing what it would have meant if I had received 
that one day earlier. 

Well, I explained to Sheed and Ward the problem with the book. 
Frank Sheed proposed (1) an editing of the book by an outside 
hand to make it suitable to both; he thought he could do it. 
(2) that I should fly back there to discuss it. 
I did fly back. That was my first flight. That was in the 
old propeller days before the jets. It seems like a very 
long flight now back to New York. It was a tremendous 
experience for me to be flown back to New York as an author 
and to be received back there by a publisher and given the full 
treatment of the valued af ter a literary life, to suddenly 
find myself wined and dined and lionized as the author of 
this tremendous book which was going to be the new Seven 
Story Mountain, which was really going to roll, etc. ,etc. ,etc. 
Well, I made one mistake before I left, because it was my first 
plane flight and naturally I was afraid. I wrote a letter to 
Mary Fabilli telling her that I was flying back for this and 
I knew Frank Sheed was a man she could trust. It was just 


Antoninus: the utterly wrong thing to do (laughter). She went into 
action then. She really went into action! When 1 got 
back, I found myself confronted with everything from threats 
of legal action to -- oh boy, it was dreadful! She was so 
furious with me. 

After I had gone back there, I left the book with Sheed and 
Ward. Sheed had an accident and could not get to it for 
awhile. By the next year this would be in November of 1956-- 
by August or September of 1957, he had finally recovered from 
his accident. He had edited the book and sent it to me for 
approval. Then I blew my stack when I found out what he had 
done to my book, how badly he had cropped it back. The whole 
arrangement collapsed at that point. The book has stayed 
right there; it has not gone anywhere beyond that point. 
So there it sits. 

Teiser: Since then, what have you been doing in the order? 
Antoninus: About that time, about 1956 or 1957, there was an administrative 
change, a new Prior at St. Albert s- -no 1957 or maybe even 
1958. I was put to work in the print shop on a production 
basis. But there was a brother put in as manager, and I 
was able to do the actual production work. At that time my 
work was the regular work, the refectory work, the bellman 
work, and a lot of porter work, answering the phone. But 
most of the day from that point was working in the print 
shop as a production printer. 


Teiser: Did you enjoy that? 

Antoninus: No, I didn t. It was probably something good for me to 

have to go through, in the same way that it is always good 
to have to adapt your ideals to the world. There is a mass 
of material, some of which I am fairly proud of, production 
work, but there is a lot of it that I am not proud of at all 
A lot of it was produced by brothers that I was training. 
It has the stamp of my personality on it, but it is in no 
way work that I would want to take credit for. 

Work Since 1960 
Antoninus: This has now changed again. In 1960 a new administration 

came in following a Provincial election. The new Provincial 
was anti-print shop. By this time, I had begun to go out on 
the platform then and give my poetry readings. I was be 
ginning to get some national publicity. He, for the first 
time, was a Provincial who did not think that I should be 
doing production work of any kind. He took me off of all 
production work, whether it was dish washing, porter s work, 
printing, or what. He wanted me just to write and give my 

That began in 1960. He closed the print shop and sent the 
managerial brother to another post. Nothing happened 
then with the print shop until about a year ago. We had 
another brother, and a new administration came along again 


Antoninus: with some new motions made toward reviving the print shop. 
This brother was sent to the Laney Trade School in Oakland 
and is now reviving the press as a working unit. 
Teiser: What kind of work does he print? 
Antoninus: Just for the order. Letterhead, a lot of ordination cards 

this year. When I was there, we were printing The Catalogs, 
which was a fairly good-sized pamphlet or book. It was not 
a bound book, but the biggest work of the year was to print 
that. It was while I was doing production work that we did 
The Crooked Lines of God for the University of Detroit. 
So I did print my own book of poems then. 
Teiser: Now you are writing, lecturing, and reading? 
Antoninus: Yes, and I do some counseling. 
Teiser: What do you mean? 

Antoninus: Well, people seek you out by an affinity of types. 
Teiser: Within your order? 
Antoninus: No, lay people, very young married, or people of a semi-beat 

or aesthetic orientation, etc. 
Teiser: They come here to you? 

Antoninus: Yes. It started at St. Albert s. I did a lot of it before 
I came over here because there are more over there in that 
section. There are a lot of beats who would want to come, 
or people of that orientation would want to come and try to 
get some help if they are in trouble, or they might want to 
find out what makes me tick. 


Teiser: Isn t that an unusual occupation for a lay brother? 
Antoninus: It is, but then my work is all unusual. The writing and 

the platform work is very unusual. 
Teiser: Where have you been reading? 

Antoninus: I make two trips a year generally, a fall and a spring one. 
I take only a reading a week. That draws my trips out; quite- 
long. The last one I came back from this fall was a two-month 
trip. I began at the University of Tucson in Arizona, then 
I went to Bowling Green State [Ohio], then to a seminary in 
Detroit, then to Assumption College in Worcester, Massachusetts, 
Boston College, back to John Carroll in Cleveland, over to 
Oakland State University outside of Detroit, then to Purdue, 
and finally Notre Dame. 

Teiser: Are you paid as a regular lecturer? 
Antoninus: I accept whatever honorarium they give me, but I do not 

specify a fee. 

Teiser: What do you do with the time between, the week between engage 

Antoninus: I like to get on to the campus two or three days early and 
start getting into the classes if I can. I like to start 
some things moving, stir up some ferment, or a movement. 
Teiser: You talk to the students? 

Antoninus: Yes, if I can get something going, it starts to spread. You 
can sense a movement of interest. I try to crest that by the 
reading night. 


Teiser: Do you work through the Newman Clubs or anything of that sort? 

Antoninus: Anyone who will sponsor me. More and more the English 

Departments are, because I am getting better known. I am 
beginning to be anthologized now. It does not really matter 
who my sponsor is though. 

Teiser: How do you meet the students, through the sponsor? 

Antoninus: After you are once in a couple of classes, you have more 
than you can handle if you start to take; if you don t, 
you don t have any. If you offer a fresh point of view, 
they will listen. 

Teiser: Do you participate in the classes, or do you just listen 
and talk to the students afterwards? 

Antoninus: No, I participate. I get up in front of the class and talk. 
I am brought for a specific event, but I supplement my time 
by that. It is a much more organic way to proceed, I have 
discovered, than just to come on the campus. My readings are 
more encounters. I throw a totally different dimension into 
the platform appearance than is customary. I refuse to give 
the standard format. My whole approach is much more direct. 

Teiser: Has anyone ever objected to your stirring up students? 

Antoninus: No, I have never encountered that. Usually, I stick to 
literature. I am very aware of the problems of my being 
there, so I am very careful not to get anywhere near what 
could be accused of as proselytizing, so I keep it on 
literary subject. 


Teiser: I was not thinking so much of that as of philosophical and 
psychological ideas that might be considered unusual for 
some colleges. 

Antoninus: I think I have the capacity not to ruffle feelings, to get 
my point across without jeopardy to the sensibilities of 
others. Often I will tell the class how easy it is for an 
outside speaker to come in and in a half hour to wipe out 
everything that the professor has been trying to do all year 
just by slamming into it with another point of view which you 
do not have to verify or spell out. All you have to do is 
state it and then leave. I point out that this certainly is 
not my intention. I try to insulate it as much as I can. I 
have been remarkably fortunate sometimes, especially at the 
beginning. They know me now so they have somewhat of an 
idea of what I am going to do, but in the beginning they 
were taken so completely by surprise that there would be some 
reactions. I remember at the University of Oregon there was. 
Often it centers in totally different areas. Like I come as 
a beatnik and they are academic, they sometimes feel threatened 
by this. At the same time they like to think of themselves as 
being broad enough that they can accommodate others, so like 
to present other views. Often they have to be very "mealy- 
mouthed" about the way they do it. 

Teiser: Do you consider yourself a beatnik or a pre-beatnik? 
Antoninus: I always say pre-beat. 


Teiser: What do you intend to do in the future? 

Antoninus: Platform work is my obsession now. It is beginning to crest 
now and I am beginning to move out more and more-, but 1 do 
not know how long this phase is going to last. 

Teiser: I think you told me the other day that you have recently 
become interested in astrology. You are going to do .some 
writing on that? 
Antoninus: I am doing that piece on Jeffers from the astrological point 

of view. I am trying to understand him better from a scrutiny 
of his horoscope. I think there is a dimension in literary 
criticism which I will do more of. Having discovered that 
I am a Virgo, which is the sign of the critic, I have more 
confidence in my aptitudes in that respect! I probably will 
do more of it. 

Teiser: I think you mentioned that you have been studying with a 
Jungian and that what you learned from him fairly well 
coincided with what you learned from astrology. Is that 
Antoninus: Yes. I think it was an excellent preparation. But I doubt 

that I would really have understood astrology if I had not had 
a notion of the archetypes, the Jungian archetypes I have 
never really studied with a Jungian, you understand, only read 
their books. I doubt that I would have paid any attention 
to it otherwise. It would not have had any meaning for me. 
I would not have seen myself in it. It is only after having 

9 i 
Antoninus: experienced the archetypal realities and had the whole 

process oriented from the exterior to the interior, been 
able to make enough separations within myself, that later 
I could see how the astrological configurations were 
correlated to those separations. 

Ruth Teiser 

Grew up in Portland, Oregon; came to the Bay Area 

in 1932 and has lived here ever since. 

Stanford, B. A., M. A. in English, further graduate 

work in Western history. 

Newspaper and magazine writer in San Francisco since 

1943, writing on local history and economic and 

business life of the Bay Area. 

Book reviewer for the San Francisco Chronicle 

since 1943. 

As correspondent for national and western graphic 

arts magazines for more than a decade, came to 

know the printing community. 


Partial Index 


Ark, The. 42 
Atkisson, Jim, 18, 19 
Auerhahn Press, 76 

Baxley, Joe, 46, 68 

Beat Generation, 40, 51, 91 

Bentley, Wilder, 47, 48, 68 

Brown, Dick, 44 

Burnham, Phil, 81 

Carothers, Kenneth, 30, 31 

Cascade Locks Conscientious Objectors Camp, 9, 15, 24, 25, 26, 27, 44 

Catholic V. orker House, 60, 61, 63, 64 

Coffield, Glen, 9, 11, 12 

Connolly, Cyril, 52 

Davis, Chuck, 12 
Dawson s Book Shop, 69, 70, 72 
Decker Press, 22 
Doheny, Mrs., 70-74 
Dominican Order, 64, ff-end 
Dugan, Father, 60, 83 
Duncan, Robert, 24, 29, 38 
Dupre, Vladimir, 24 

Equinox, Press, 44, 60 

Erie, Broadus, 11 

Erie, Hildegarde, 26 

Eshelman, Bill, 11, 13, 14, 15 

Everson, William 

family, 1-4; education, 4 ff; conscientious objectors camp, 8-18, 
24-36; writings, pre-war, 18-22, war-time and post-war, 22-24; 
post-war in the Bay Area, 36-40; influences of Kenneth Rexroth 
and Mary Fabilli, 36-40; conversion, 55-58; Guggenheim grant, 58- 
60; Catholic Worker House, 60-64; the Psalter, 64-74; more writings, 
74-81; departure from and return to Dominican Order, 81-87; 
lecture work, 87-93. 

Fabilli, Mary, 29, 38, 43, 44, 51, 52, 55-58, 60, 63, 77-81, 85 

Farquhar, Sam, 46 

Fresno State Caravan, 4 

Fresno State College, 4, 6, 19, 21 

George, Vic, 46 

Grabhorn Press, 66, 68, 69 

Graves, Morris, 30-35 

Guggenheim Fellowship, 51, 58, 59 

Hackett, Harold, 9, 11 
Hart, James D., 47, 

11 1 C. 

Hart, James D., 
Harvey, Bob, 11, 
Hoffman, Hans A., 


lOD, J.J., 16 

Hans A. , 20 


Illiterati, 15, 16 
Interplayers , 11 

Jackson, Dave, 11 

James, Barbara St raker, 14 

James, Clayton, 11, 13, 14, 16, 30, 33 

Jeffers, Robinson, 4, 5, 6, 21, 22, 23, 50, 56, 75, 76, 92 

Kalal, Joe, 12, 13, 14 
Kennedy, J.F., 75 
Kentfield, 74 
Kosbad, Earl, 9 

LaPlacas, 82 

Lamantia, Philip, 39, 43 

Laughlin, James, 22, 54 

Lawrence, D. H. , 22, 23, 50,56, 79 

Marks, Saul, 71, 73 
McCool, Carroll, 63, 64 
Minersville, 28, 29 

New Directions Press, 22, 53, 54, 72 

New Music Quartet, 11 

Nomland, Kemper, 9, 11, 13, 15, 24 

Osborn, Father, 64 
Oyez Press, 22, 76 

Patchen, Kenneth, 24 

Ponch, Martin, 11, 15 

Pond Farm, Guerneville, 37 

Porter, Fay, 21 

Poulson, Edwa, 6, 7, 8, 29, 43, 57 

Powell, Larry 21 

Rexroth, Kenneth, 22, 38, 39, 40, 41, 43, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 59 
Ritchie, Ward, 21 

St. Albert s College, 64, 65, 66, 74, 75, 76, 78, 84, 86-88 
San Francisco anarchists, 41, 42 
San Francisco "beat" beginnings 

see Rexroth and Beat Generation 
Selective Service Laws, 17, 18 
Seraphim Press, 60, 61 
Sheed and Ward, 81, 85, 86 
Sheed, Frank, 81, 85, 86 
Sheets, Kermit, 9, 11, 15 
Simons, Larry, 11, 13 
Sloan Jacob, 14 
Sperisen, Albert, 61, 75 

Thomas, Father, 82, 84 

Treesbank Farm, Sebastopol, 36-38, 43, 47, 60 
Tyler, Hamilton, 36, 37, 38, 43 
Tyler, Mary, 36, 37, 38, 43 

University of California Press, 45-48, 58, 68 
Untide Press, 11, 29, 36, 45 

Vann, Father Gerald, 81 

Waldport Conscientious Objectors Camp, 8-19, 24, 30-35, 50 

Walhalla Camp, Michigan, 12 

Westward Magazine, 20 

Wilson, Adrian, 16, 21, 42, 78 

White, Father Victor, 78, 80, 81, 82, 83 

Brother Antoninus s Printing 

The Announcement, 58 

Astonished Eye Looks Out of the Air, An, 24 

Compass, 15, 16 

Crooked Lines of God, The, 88 

Generation of Journey, The, 14 

Horned, Moon, The, 12 

Novum Psalterium Pii XII, 49, 65-74, 76 

Ode to the Virginian Voyage, 47 

Poems MCMXLII, 23 

Privacy of Speech, A, 58, 62, 63 

Residual Years, The, 23 

Triptych for the Living, 61, 62 

Untide, The, 11, 12, 15, 16 

Waldport Poems, 13, 14, 23 

War Elegies, 12, 13, 23 

Brother Antoninus s Writings 

Autobiography, 76, 77 

Crooked Lines of God, The, 74, 75, 88 

"Latter-Day Hand Press" 66 

Masculine Dead, The, 22, 33, 53, 54, 76 

Poet is Dead, The, 76 

Privacy of Speech, A, 58 

Residual Years, The, 19, 22 

Rose of Solitude, The (Unpublished), 75 

San Joaquin, 21, 76 

Single Source, 76 

Ten War Elegies, 12 

These are the Ravens, 20, 23, 76 

Triptych for the Living, 61 

Waldport Poems, 14 

The Prodigious Thrust, 77 (see Autobiography) 

Non tuoald that night contain it. 

Thece toas an age/insacgent/ 

Sccaujled on the stonetoock of the temple wall. 

Thene was the massioe afteczraath/ 

Flanked ctith the doom of kings/ 

And the seccet seed 

Spoced in the botoels of Erapiize. 

Thece cuas the pocuecfal cegaoaping of the mind/ 

Whece the sotted pappets 

Snotzed on theia gcosseiz thaones. 

That. And the bace pocuerz/ 

Which is looe/focged noto/in the fcighted haman soul/ 

As the focce of a looe/lacgec than it/ 

Scoells the coizened heaizt 

To the statcme of a faith. 

q. Bipth/like death/ 

Toanscended. The blood 
Burzned oat of the stable flooc. 
Outside/the oxen and the ass 
Ccanch theic cocn. Bat the man! 
The man! seized in that aoctex/ 
Breaks on his knees/ 
And pca^ys! 


They came foe it/but that toas nothing/ 
That toas the Least. Dcunk tuith oision/ 
Rain stringing the nagged beaods/ 
When a beast Lamed they caught another? 
And goaded toest. 

q: Foe the time cuas on them. 

Once/as it majy/in the Life of a man; 

Once/as it toas/in the Life of mankind/ 

All is coccected. And theic ryeaes of puasuit/ 

n zv 3.- ^L. 

RauJ-ejyed ceading the cucong texts/ 
Chacting the doabtf aL calcaLations/ 

Those nights knotted cuith thought/ 

When datun held off/and the RoosteR 

Rattled the leaoes coith his blind assection 

All that/they RegaRded/andeR the Sign/ 

No LongeR as seaRch bat as pRepaRation. 

FOR cohen the maRk tuas made they saco it. 

NOR stopped to Reckon the fallible yeans/ 

Bat Rejoiced and followed/ 

And ORC called u?ise/tDho leaRned that Tnuth/ 

When sought and at last seen/ 

Is neoeR foand. It is giuen. 

And they bRoaght theiR camels 
BReakneck into that village/ 

nd flung theraseloes doton in the dang and diet of that place/ 
nd kissed that gcound/and the teaos 
an on the face cuhece the pain had. 

i " 






FRIPTYCH FOR THE LIVING ficst appealed in The Caebolic 
Woekec/Decernbeo/1949/and was oepmnted in Nea? 
Directions XI I/the aoant gacde annaal edited by James 
Laughlin. In 1951 it seooed as title-poem to the ficst book 
3f the Secaphim Poess/bat the pcesent painting consti 
tutes its fiRst separate shocking. 

fu?o hcindRed copies haoe been pointed on the handpoess 
zy the aathop/in Amecican Uncial type on Tooil handmade 
3apec/and completed in the month of Octobec/1955. 


Board of Directors 

W. P. Fuller Brawner 


Mortimer Fleishhacker, Jr. 

Melvin B. Lane 

Robert A. Lurie 

Mrs. Charles Black 

Mrs. Allen E. Charles 

Lowell Clucas 

William K. Coblentz 

E. Morris Cox 

Dr. Paul Dodd 

Louis H. Heilbron 

A. Ford Lovelace 

Charles Mayer 

John L. Merill 

Lyle M. Nelson 

Roland Pierotti 

Mrs. Benson B. Roe 

Mrs. William Lister Rogers 

Dr. Vaughn D. Seidel 

Dr. Neil V. Sullivan 

Caspar W. Weinberger 

Frederick C. Whitman 

James Day 
Vice President and General Manager 

All Channel 9 programs are also seen on 
the following translators: Channel 80 serv 
ing Contra Costa County; Channel 72 serv 
ing Monterey County; Channel 76 serving 
Santa Clara County. 


Bill Everson is a San Francisco poet. He is also Brother Antoninus, a 
Dominican monk. His presence on our cover is neither incidental nor 
coincidental since he is, by dint of his standing as one of the major 
figures in contemporary American poetry, one of the subjects of 
U.S.A.: Poetry, a new grouping in N.E.T. s 41-week sweep of the 
arts in America. 

Of the poetry segment, beginning on March 1 and comprising 12 pro 
grams in all (5 in March, 7 later), 10 are being produced by the 
KQED Film Unit under contract to National Educational Television. 
Directed by KQED s Richard Moore, the Film Unit visited eight im 
portant poets in and around San Francisco to produce four of the five 
programs to be seen here this month. The unit is now in the East for 
the further filming which will fulfill its N.E.T. contract. We commend 
the result to your viewing. 

(It should be noted here that this is the KQED team selected by 
N.E.T. to produce the documentary on Poland seen on Channel 9 last 

The lesson is clear. We have infinite programming riches in our area 
- and KQED has staff with superior skills. N.E.T. can pay for such 
skills. With sufficient funds from you, KQED, too, can use some of 
these, its own, creative energies for local television of equally am 
bitious purpose and content in-studio and on-location productions 
with specific meaning for the Bay region audience. 

"Under Milk Wood" (March 13, 19) is another KQED March event 
with significance beyond the fact of its television premiere. Dylan 
Thomas poetic evocation of a day in the life of a small Welsh town 
debuts Sunday Showcase, a three-month series produced by WNDT, 
New York, under a $250,000 grant from the Bristol-Myers Company. 

The series is remarkable in that it will present three full-length 
dramas, three programs in association with Lincoln Center, three pro 
grams on the fine arts, and three symposia on topics relating to both 
the fine and performing arts. 

The grant, too, is remarkable not only for its generosity, but also 
because it was awarded to a single station. With this corporate gift, 
Bristol-Myers has temporarily freed the New York ETV station from 
the bogeyman of budget enabling it to give its audience and many 
audiences around the nation some of the unique cultural advantages 
currently available in metropolitan New York. 

Again, the conclusion seems clear. To the community support which 
permits KQED to increase its worth to the community, the corporate 
grant exemplified here by Bristol-Myers enlightened underwriting 
of Sunday Showcase is the challenge to our channel to fully 
utilize, and share with the nation, the unnumbered "unique-ities" of 
the Bay Area and the West. 

We invite your patronage. 

Cover photograph by Ernest Lowe 

MARCH 1966 

KQED s daytime schedule of 


appears on the back cover. 

TUESDAY. March 1 

12:00 SING HI SING LO . . . Musical entertain 
ment for small fry, in a preview of today s 
5:30 p.m. program. 

12:15 THE FRIENDLY GIANT . . . stomps in for 
an advance showing of his 5:45 p.m. pro 
gram. (All of KQED s noon half-hour pro 
gramming for children is presented with 
the financial assistance of the Junior League 
of Oakland.) 

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Museum Open 
House KQED s half-hour for the ladies 
brings a different subject to each of mi 
lady s week-day luncheon breaks. Tuesday s 
topic is fine art discussed in advance of 
the regular Museum Open House showing at 
10 p.m. Thursdays. 

4:00 INTERNATIONAL MAGAZINE . . . Preview of 
Friday s 7:30 p.m. program. 

5:00 WHAT S NEW ... Ti-Jean in the Land of 
Iron The adventures of a French-Canadian 
boy whose exploits out-do even those of 
Paul Bunyan. (February 28 reshowing.) 

5:30 SING HI SING LO (KQED) . . . Co-operative 
Work in the South Adding to her musical 
vignettes of American folklore, songstress 
Bash Kennett uses story and song to recall 
the neighborliness of people in the old 

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT . . . More friendly 
than frightening, Robert Homme towers over 
his tiny puppet friends, Rusty and Jerome. 
Today they read A Tree is Nice and sing 
"If All the Seas Were One Sea." 

6:00 WHArs NEW ... Angotee The story of a 
young Eskimo s transition from playful boy 
to adult seal-hunter. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Suite from "Der 

Rosenkavalier" by Richard Strauss. Josef 
Krips conducts the Philharmonia. 

7:00 AN ATHEIST SPEAKS (KQEO) ... As follow 
up to last November s America s Crises pro 
gram The Religious Revolution and the 
Void," Robert H. Scott of Saratoga has re 

quested time to give the atheist s point 
of view since almost all contemporary 
American philosophies but his were studied 
in the N.ET. documentary. Mr. Scott speaks 
of his beliefs and the roots of atheism. 

7:30 WHERE IS JIM CROW? (KQED) . . . Guest is 
Lena Home. (February 16 reshowing) 

8:00 CONCERT (KQED) . . . Ludwig Olshansky, 

Four Impromptus, Opus 90 Schubert 

Sonata in B Flat Minor, Opus 35 Chopin 

9:00 OPEN END ... Menopause Straight talk 
sorts the fiction from the facts about the 
middle-aged change which proves a blight 
to many normally blithe-spirited females. 
David Susskind s guests are: Dr. Robert 
Greenblatt, chairman of the Department of 
Endocrinology, Medical School of Georgia; 
Dr. Robert Kistner, Harvard Medical School; 
Dr. Edmund Noyack, Johns Hopkins Univer 
sity; and Madeline Gray, a patient who uses 
the controversial estrogen. Open End is pre 
sented with the alternate-week financial as 
sistance of the Jenkel-Davidson Optical Com 
pany and Gump s. 

10:00 U.S.A.: POETS . . . William Carlos Williams 

The life of the late Pulitzer Prize-winning 
poet and physician is recreated in a visit 
to his home town of Rutherford, New Jer 
sey where his son now practices medicine 
in his father s office. The physical and emo 
tional environment from which Williams 
poetry sprang is further explored through 
selected letters, poems and his autobiog 
raphy, read by actor Arthur Hill. First of 
five March programs on contemporary Amer 
ican poets. (ReshownVThursday, 4 p.m.) 

10:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE . . . Motivating 
the Salesman KQED s television classroom 
for the executive continues, under the tute 
lage of Edward Bursk, with tonight s dis 
cussion of "incentive plans" for the sales 
man. Suggestions from Herbert M. Cleaves, 
executive vice president of Chase Manhattan 
Bank, and Winston Mergott, vice president 
and general sales manager, Liberty Mutual 
Insurance Company. 



Lunchtime previews. 

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Language in Action 
Semanticist S. I. Hayakawa warns against 
advertising that promotes "pathological re 
actions to words and other symbols." 

4:00 FOLK GUITAR . . . Laura Weber sings "Span 
ish is a Loving Tongue" and teaches scales to 
begining guitarists, in a repeat of her Feb 
ruary 28 lesson. 

4:30 THE SCOTCH GARDENER (KQED) . . . Viewer 

Mail Answers from Jim Kerr. (February 25 

5:00 WHAT S NEW ... Throughout the month, 
each 5 p.m. What s New repeats the pre 
vious day s 6 p.m. program. 

The late William Carlos Williams, first of the gath 
ering of poets on U.S.A.: Poetry . . . March 1, 10 
p.m., March 3, 4 p.m. 

5:30 ART STUDIO (KQED) . . . Weaving Arts and 
crafts for the 8 to 12 year old with an ar 
tistic bent taught by Linda Schmid of the 
Athenian School faculty. 

5:45 SING HI SING LO (KQED) . . . Forest Fire- 
seen on film and narrated by Bash Kennett. 

6:00 WHAT S NEW . . . Honey Bees and Pollina 
tion A close-up of the life of the hive. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Vivaldi s Concert! 
in F Major and in D Major. I Solisti Veneti. 

7:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . Aquarium A guid 
ed tour of San Francisco s Steinhart Aquar 
ium with curator Dr. Earl S. Herald reveals 
the highly skilled scientific knowledge neces 
sary for the proper display of aquatic life. 
David Perlman of the San Francisco Chron 
icle gives his weekly science report. Science 
in Action is presented with the alternate- 
week financial assistance of P.G. &E. and 
Wells Fargo Bank. 

7:30 GREAT DECISIONS . . . Sub-Saharan Africa 
The fourth of eight Great Decisions forums 
on key foreign policy topics (presented by 
N.E.T. in conjunction with the annual Great 
Decisions discussion meetings throughout 
the country) considers the post-independ 
ence period of sub-Saharan Africa the re 
gion s prospects for economic growth, its 
role in international affairs, Communist pen 
etration, and U.S. policies toward the area. 
(Reshown Friday, 4:30 p.m.) 

8:00 WHERE IS JIM CROW? (KQED). . .Gains and 
losses in the civil rights arena totted up by 
Buzz Anderson and his guests. (Reshown 
Friday evening.) 

8:30 TURN OF THE CENTURY . . . Pastime Pa 
rade Life in the 1890 s humorously re 
called by Max Morath s honky-tonk piano 
and vaudeville talents. 

9:00 WORLD PRESS (KQED) . . . International 
press reaction to the week s big news, ana 
lyzed by Channel 9 s panel of political sci 
ence experts. The weekly report is moderat 
ed by San Francisco Supervisor Roger Boas 
and presented with the financial assistance 
of the San Francisco Examiner and the 
Crown Zellerbach Foundation. 

(II) ... The Reshaping of Chinese Society- 
Second of two discussions videotaped at a 
four day meeting in Chicago last month. 
Tonight s hour-long program probes the rev 
olutionary evolution of a new China. Francis 
L. K. Hsu of Northwestern University chairs 
the panel of experts: British anthropologist 
Jan Myrdal and Franz Schurmann, Center 
for Chinese Study, U.C. at Berkeley. (Re- 
shown Saturday, 8 p.m. 

THURSDAY. March 3 

12:00 ONCE UPON A DAY ... Preview of today s 
5:30 p.m. program. 

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE ... The French Chef- 
Preview of today s 8:30 p.m. program. 

4:00 U.S.A.: POETRY . . . William Carlos Williams 
March 1 reshowing. 


7 p.m. program. 

5:00 WHAT S NEW 

Preview of today s 

The concert setting is Long Island s Old Westbury 
Gardens; the soprano, Elisabeth Schwarzkopf . . . 
March 4, 8:30 p.m., March 6, 9:45 p.m. 

5:30 ONCE UPON A DAY ... Rhythms for the 
pre-schooler. The auspices are Charity Bai 
ley s. 

6:00 WHAT S NEW ... Log Drive Film and song 
follow the spring journey of the logs down 
river to the sawmill. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Swan Lake Ballet 
Suite by Tchaikowsky. The Philadelphia Or 
chestra, Eugene Ormandy conducting. 

7:00 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Engine Cooling Sys 
tem Toward better understanding of the 
mysteries of the family car, Richard Pinette, 
auto mechanics teacher at Berlin High 
School, N.Y., continues his series of 10 auto 

mechanics lessons for the layman. This third 
lesson explains the engine cooling system 
and how to simmer down overheated en 

7:30 THE NEW COMERS (KQED) ... Law and En 
forcement: Part I Billy-club wielder, bum 
bling cop, or respected symbol of authority? 
Guided by host Buzz Anderson, KQED s 
young talkers discuss how today s teens 
look at representatives of the law and the 
rules they enforce. (Reshown Friday, 4 p.m.) 

8:00 U.S.A.: ARTISTS . . . Jim Dine From pas 
toral to pop, the transition of American art 
in the last two decades is studied in five 
programs on the American painier and 
sculptor. Not classifying himself among the 
Pop artists, yet working with them, Jim Dine 
uses his art to comment on familiar objects. 
In this first program on the artist, U.S.A. 
goes to a Happening with Dine. 

8:30 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . More About Potatoes 

That most versatile vegetable, the potato, 
takes on two new personalities at the hands 
of Julia Child. Mashed potatoes and egg 
yolks are combined for elegant and decora 
tive Pommes Duchesse; the sturdy "cake" 
of Pommes Anna blends with a hearty chop 
or steak dinner. Presented each week with 
the financial assistance of Hills Bros. Coffee 
of San Francisco. 

9:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA (KQED) . . . California s 
Taxes in 1966 California legislators give 
their views on proposed tax legislation. Cas 
par Weinberger moderates the panel. Pre 
sented with the financial assistance of the 
San Francisco Examiner. (Reshown Sunday, 
7 p.m.) 

10:00 MUSEUM OPEN HOUSE . . . Painters and 
Pioneers The Boston Museum of Fine Arts 
opens its doors weekly to the inspection of 
Russell Connor. This evening a guest, Mi 
chael Tulysewski, joins the museum tour to 
enhance the visual record of pioneer paint 
ers with songs of the sea and plains. 

10:30 OPINION IN THE CAPITAL . . . Mark Evans 
on the Washington beat interviewing the 
men who make the news. 

FRIDAY. March 4 

11:30 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . March 2 reshowing 



Lunchtime previews 

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Casals Master Class 

Pablo Casals, master of the cello, imparts 

to University of California student cellists 
rare insight into the discipline of music. 
This afternoon s guest is John Graham of 
U.C. faculty, who performs Bach s Sonata 
No. 3 in G Minor for viola da gamba. 

4:00 THE NEW COMERS . . . March 3 reshowing. 
4:30 GREAT DECISIONS . . . March 2 reshowing. 
5:00 WHAT S NEW 

5:30 ART STUDIO (KQED) . . . More Weaving- 
Linda Schmid at the loom concludes six les 
sons on the techniques of weaving. 

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT . . . Song of the Pine 
Tree Forest Friendly and friends make up 
a song to go with the book. 

6:00 WHAT S NEW ... Islands of the Frozen Sea 

From the Queen Elizabeth Islands at the 
roof of the world, a story on life as far 
north as it is lived. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Scenes from Le 
Baiser de la Fee (The Fairy s Kiss) by Stra 

sias Channel 9 s gardening expert Jim Kerr 
is host to amateur fuchsia grower Tom Oli 
ver, who is exceptionally wise in the ways 
of pruning and feeding the exotic flower. 
(Reshown Wednesday, 4:30 p.m.) 

AZINE . . . This month the reports of foreign 
correspondents come from eastern Europe, 
the Middle East, South Africa and England, 
and include stories both serious and light. 
Covered are: the South African press; the 
views of Polish students and journalists; life 
in Bahrein; foreign workers in West Germany; 
and the long-haired craze of Great Britain s 
young men. David Culhane, chief of the 
Baltimore Sun s London bureau, edits the 
stories. (February 28 reshowing.) 


intimate musical soiree is graciously con 
ducted by one of the world s greatest vocal 
artists. Recorded in the old-world atmo 
sphere of the Phipps Estate on Long Island, 
Miss Schwarzkopf s recital includes classical 
and folk music, with a range of material 
that displays both her noted soprano and 
her ability as an interpreter of song. Be 
ginning with "Voi che sapete" from Mozart s 
Le Nozze di Figaro, she also sings Schubert, 
Brahms, Wolf and Strauss. Three folk songs 
conclude the program. (Reshown Sunday) 

10:00 WORLD HISTORY . . . America s Westward 
Expansion The scene shifts from post- 
revolutionary France to the wild frontier of 
North America where the dreams of gold 
miners, farmers and cattlemen were only 
partly dashed by Mexican and Indian resist 

SATURDAY. March 5 

5:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE . . . Advance 
showing of Tuesday s 10:30 p.m. program. 

6:00 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX (II) ... 15 lessons 
for the intermediate bridge player begin 
with an explanation of proper leads when 
the play is in suit. (Reshown Sunday, 6:30) 

6:30 KOLTANOWSKI ON CHESS . . . February 28 

7:00 FILMS A LA CARTE ... The Mountains Are 
Smoking A film idyll among the forests, 
streams and majestic peaks of Great Smoky 
Mountain National Park. 

7:30 BOOK BEAT . . . Alex Haley The mysticism 
of Malcolm X is discussed by his biographer 
in conversation with Robert Cromie of the 
Chicago Tribune. 

(II) ... The Reshaping of Chinese Society 

March 2 reshowing. 

9:00 THE OPEN MIND . . . U.S. Legislature: Elect 
ed for Four Years? Eric Goldman and a 
panel of politicos ponder President John 
son s recommendation that the traditional 
two year term of Congressmen be doubled. 

SUNDAY. March 6 

5:00 PARLONS FRANCAIS . . . Madame Anne 
Slack teaches beginning French adding fla 
vor to her lessons with pictures and her 
own insight into life in France. 



March 2 re- 

Why Settle for Less? 

340,000 410,000 

* Books Inc.*- 


Hillsdale Mall Town & Country 

Stanford Mall Coddingtown 


Suburban Stores Open Evenings 

5:30 UNA AVENTURA ESPANOLA . . . Basic Span 
ish lessons, spiced by Senorita Yvette del 

6:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . Aquarium March 
2 reshowing. 

6:30 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX ... March 5 re- 

7:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA . . . March 3 reshowing. 

8:00 (DRAMA) TWELFTH NIGHT ... In comic 
Comedia dell Arte style, clowns, masquer 
ades and mistaken identity are merrily min 
gled by Shakespeare s classic romp. This 
slightly abbreviated version of the Bard s 
work was produced by Associated-Rediffu- 
sion, Ltd. 

7:00 FOLK GUITAR (KQED) . . . Laura Weber 
holds her own small hoot with guest Mal- 
vina Reynolds. She also teaches "Hushabye 
Don t You Cry" and introduces F as a bar 
chord. Lesson #19 in a series for the be 
ginning guitarist. (Reshown Wednesday) 

7:30 ANTIQUES . . . Wooden Primitives Cheese 
basket and curd breaker, popcorn popper 
and foot warmer antique objects made of 
wood, displayed and commented on by 
George Michael. 


his 23rd chess lesson, Koltanowski concen 
trates on the beginner. Counseling the nov 
ice to castle early with certain opening 
moves, he also describes the Max Lange 
opening and defense. (Reshown Saturday, 
6:30 p.m.) 

state of the station and viewers views of 
it, reported by general manager James Day. 
(Reshown Monday evening.) 


March 4 reshowing. 

MONDAY. March 7 

12:00 CHILDREN S FAIR . . . Preview of today s 
5:30 p.m. program. 

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Children Growing- 
Each Monday Dr. Maria Piers and Miss Lee 
Wilcox discuss the problems and joys of 
child-raising this afternoon considering the 
different worlds and persons confronted by 
the first grader. 

4:00 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . Preview of Thurs 
day s 8:30 p.m. program. 

4:30 U.S.A.: ARTISTS 
8 p.m. program. 

. Preview of Thursday s 

5:00 WHAT S NEW ... Islands of the Frozen Sea 

Throughout the month, each Monday s 5 
p.m. Whafs New repeats the previous Fri 
day s 6 p.m. program. 

5:30 CHILDREN S FAIR ... A fairy-tale princess 
visits the fair. 

6:00 WHAT S NEW ... Beaver Dam The story 
of some small boys loyalty to a resourceful 
beaver friend; Street to the World A poetic 
study of the Montreal docks. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Ponchielli: Quar 
tet in B-Flat Major for Winds With Piano 


Throughout the month this is a reshowing 
of James Day s Sunday evening KQED report. 

8:30 THE SUEZ AFFAIR . . . This public affairs 
special will be reshown tomorrow at 4 and 
Friday at 7:30 p.m. 

9:30 CITY BEAT: MEL WAX (KQED) ... The San 
Francisco Chronicle s urban affairs editor 
acts as city reporter-at-large. 

9:50 RADENZEL REPORTS (KQED) . . . You ve 
asked and he s back. Ed Radenzel, foreign 
news editor of the Chronicle, returns to 
Channel 9 s Monday evening screen with a 
10 minute weekly round-up of national and 
international news. 

IS OF NO INTEREST (KQED) ... A gather 
ing of artistic personalities promises creative 
climate for tonight s after-dinner talk. 
Turned on by Japanese cuisine from Nikko 
Sukiyaki, James Day-san s guests are: nov 
elist and playwright Martin Flavin; Francisco 
de Hoya, musician and World Press reporter 
of Latin American news coverage; and Rob 
ert Erickson, composer and chairman of the 
Composition Department, San Francisco Con 
servatory of Music. 

11:00 SOVIET PRESS THIS WEEK . . . Colette Schul 
man surveys leading Soviet newspapers and 
periodicals for Russian journalistic views. 

TUESDAY. March 8 


12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Museum Open House 

Preview of Thursday s 10 p.m. program. 

4:00 THE SUEZ AFFAIR . . . March 7 reshowing. 

Andy Warhol of Pop art and underground movie 
fame is one of the new generation of U.S.A.: Artists 
. . . March 7, 4:30 p.m., March 10, 8 p.m. 

5:00 WHAT S NEW 

5:30 SING HI SING LO (KQED) ... Post Riders- 
Stagecoaches and the Pony Express are cele 
brated by Bash Kennett s songs. 

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT . . . Millions and Mil 
lions of books in Friendly s castle. 

6:00 WHAT S NEW ... The Living Stone Eskimo 
soapstone carving. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Symphony No. 1 

by Robert Helps. 

7:00 To be announced 

7:30 OPENING NIGHT (KQED) ... The National 
Repertory Theatre Local professional reper 
tory is contrasted to the effort of ANTA s 
touring National Repertory Theatre by David 
Littlejohn s reviews of the three plays cur 
rently on view at the Geary: "The Madwom 
an of Chaillot," "The Rival," and "The Tro 
jan Women." 

8:00 CONCERT (KQED) . . . Ako Ito, guitar; Gail 
Denny, mandolin and viola; Linda Ashworth 
and Thomas Halpin, violins; Marjorie Pres- 
cott, cello; Donald Pippin, piano. (By spe 
cial arrangement with The Old Spaghetti 
Quintet in E minor for guitar 

and strings Boccherini 

Concerto in D minor for piano 

and strings Bach 

Concerto for mandolin, guitar 

and strings Johann Hasse 

9:00 OPEN END ... Escape from Terror: Five 
Cuban Refugees Topping adventure fiction 
in danger and desperation, the flight of Cu 
ban refugees has nonetheless become a 
commonplace occurrence. A quintet of Cu 
bans who have recently fled their country 
talk with David Susskind. 

10:00 U.S.A.: POETRY (KQED) . . . Allen Ginsberg 
and Lawrence Ferlinghetti Here are two lo 
cal titans whose influence, felt far beyond 
the purlieus of their own San Francisco, has 
done much to shape contemporary American 
poetry. In the first of 10 profiles of Ameri 
can poets produced for U.S.A.: Poetry by 
the KQED Film Unit, they move among such 
familiar San Francisco scenes as the City 
Lights Bookstore, talking, reading from their 
work Ginsberg s "The King of May" and 
"New York to San Fran," Ferlinghetti s "The 
Situation in the West" and "Dog." As pic 
turesque as their habitat, they are outspo 
ken and controversial popular poets in the 
Vachel Lindsay tradition of engagement with 
the world around them. 

10:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE ... How Effec 
tive Are Mail Order and Telephone Selling? 
Opinions from executives of A.T.&T., Life 
magazine, and the Sears, Roebuck cata 


. Language in Action 

has semantics too. 


12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . 

The popular song 
Hayakawa elaborates. 

4:00 FOLK GUITAR . . . March 7 reshowing. 

4:30 THE SCOTCH GARDENER . . . March 4 re- 

5:00 WHAT S NEW 

5:30 ART STUDIO (KQED) . . . Drawing Birds. 

5:45 SING HI SING LO . . . Fairs and Dramas. 

6:00 WHAT S NEW ... The Stowaway learns a 
lesson about deep-sea fishing; Fishermen 
use new techniques in eastern Canada. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Khachaturian s 
Piano Concerto. Andre Previn conducts the 
Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. 

7:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . Crash Research 

The violent but scientific work of traffic 
safety research is conducted at U.C.L.A. s 
Institute of Transportation and Traffic Engi 
neering. Harry Case of U.C.L.A. shows how 
impact studies are made with full-scale 
cars. David Perlman reports the scientific 
news. (Reshown Friday and Sunday) 

7:30 GREAT DECISIONS . . . Russia After Khrush 
chev With film excerpts and narration by 
series host David Schoenbrun, the program 
explores the political, economic and social 
changes that have evolved in Russia since 
the October 1964 exit of Premier Khrush 
chev. The Russian political game is re 
viewed by Wilter Stoessel, Deputy Assistant 
Secretary of State for European Affairs. (Re- 
shown Friday, 4:30 p.m.) 

8:00 WHERE IS JIM CROW? (KQED) . . . Reshown 

8:30 TURN OF THE CENTURY . . . Music in the 

Air Max Morath builds a dramatic skit 
around mechanical pianos. 


TIVE ... To the international news coverage 
of World Press, New York Timesmen Lester 
Markel, Tom Wicker and Max Frankel add 
the American viewpoint with a review and 
analysis of this month s news. (Reshown 
Saturday, 10:15 p.m.) 

THURSDAY. March 10 

12:00 ONCE UPON A DAY ... Preview of today s 
5:30 p.m. program. 

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE ... The French Chef- 
Preview of today s 8:30 p.m. program. 

4:00 U.SA: POETRY . . . March 8 reshowing. 

4:30 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Preview of today s 7 
p.m. program. 

5:00 WHAT S NEW 


tains the littlest. 

6:00 WHAT S NEW ... Eskimo Summer; Corral. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Respighi s Feste 
Rontane (Roman Festivals). The Los Angeles 
Philharmonic Orchestra. 

7:00 AUTO MECHANICS . . Application A film 
summary and demonstration of the princi 
ples already learned. 

, Charity Bailey enter 

7:30 THE NEW COMERS (KQED) ... Law and En 
forcement: Part II -Channel 9 s teens keep 
talking about last week s topic: justice, au 
thority and civil disobedience. (Reshown 

-8:00 U.S.A.: ARTISTS . . . Andy Warhol and Roy 

Lichtenstein explosive forces for Pop and 
Op and two of America s most influential 
figures in contemporary art. 

8:30 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . Steak Dinner in 
Half a Hour The secret: plan and keep 
notes. Julia Child shows how it s done, pro 
ducing a fast and delectable dinner of Pro 
vencal garlic soup, flank steak, vegetables, 
and molded ice cream with rum and choco 

9:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA (KQED) . . . Student 
Revolution Down with the old attitudes 
up with the new, or the different, or the 
defiant. So the modern collegian seems to 
say about everything from sex to politics. 
Representatives from Mills College, the Uni 
versity of California at Berkeley, Stanford 
University, San Francisco State and the Uni 
versity of San Francisco meet with Caspar 
Weinberger. Presented with the financial as 
sistance of the Associated Students of S.F. 
State College. 

10:00 MUSEUM OPEN HOUSE ... The Chic of 
Arabesque The sinuous, serpentine line of 
I art nouveau, high fashion at the turn of the 
century, soon became too precious to sur 


March 9 reshowing. 

March 10 reshowing. 
. March 9 reshowing. 

FRIDAY. March 11 




12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Casals Master Class. 

4:00 THE NEW COMERS . . . 


5:00 WHAT S NEW 

5:30 ART STUDIO . . . Painting Birds. 

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT . . . Casey Jones. 

6:00 WHAT S NEW ... The Pony. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Prokofiev: Sym 
phony No. 6 (2nd, 3rd and 4th movements). 

chids for the Home Alex Graham, garden 
superintendent for the Blyth Estate, shows 
how orchids can be grown in your own 
kitchen. (Reshown Wednesday) 


7:30 THE SUEZ AFFAIR . . . March 7 reshowing. 

SUNDAY, March 13 

8:30 (MUSIC) INTOLLERANZA ... A political tract 
against intolerance, this experimental opera 
calls for electronic music and film and tele 
vision sequences as part of the action. It 
was written by Arnold Schoenberg s son-in- 
law, Luigi Nono, one of Italy s most promi- 
net avant-gardists. The Boston Opera Group 
performs. (Reshown Sunday, 10 p.m.) 

10:00 WHERE IS JIM CROW? . . . March 9 reshow 

10:30 WORLD HISTORY . . . Capitalism, Socialism 
and Communism The industrial revolution 
in America produced two new classes 
capitalist and worker. The philosophies that 
formed around them created political par 
ties still in existence. 

SATURDAY. March 12 

5:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE . . . Preview of 
Tuesday s 10:30 p.m. program. 

6:00 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX ... continues last 
week s lesson on proper leads. (Reshown 
Sunday, 6:30 p.m.) 

6:30 KOLTANOWSKI ON CHESS . . . March 7 re 

7:00 FILMS A LA CARTE ... The Enduring Wil 
derness Canada s park conservation pro 

7:30 BOOK BEAT . . . Col. Sally Chesham The 
Salvation Army s militant Sally Chesham is 
Robert Cromie s guest for conversation 
about her book Born To Battle. 

8:00 THE OPEN MIND . . . Flying Saucers Cigar 

shaped or round, glowing or flashing, "un 
identified flying objects" differ in the re 
ports of every observer but have remained 
constant in the multiplicity of their appear 
ances for over a decade. Eric Goldman ex 
plores the weird world of outer space with 
his guests, each of whom feels he has the 
facts to support or deny the saucers ex 

9:00 (MUSIC) LA SCALA Dl SETA ... A secret 
marriage and tangled love matches cause a 
confusion that is the ideal setting for the 
intricacies of 19th century Italian comic 
opera. This production of Rossini, the work 
performed by the Philharmonic Orchestra of 
Rome under the direction of Franco Ferrara, 
was filmed by Cine Lirica Italiana. 



6:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . March 9 reshowing. 

6:30 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX ... March 12 re- 

7:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA . . . March 10 reshow 

8:00 (DEBUT) SUNDAY SHOWCASE . . . Under 
Milk Wood Highlight for a weekend eve 
ning: a 12-week series devoted to the per 
forming and fine arts, beginning this Sunday 
with a major work of the Welsh poet, Dylan 
Thomas. Written in verse, Under Milk Wood 
dramatizes a day in the life of a small Welsh 
village; the sunlit streets of the town seem 
to come alive with the songs, gossip, hopes 
and despair of their inhabitants. This first 
presentation on U.S. television of Thomas 
play is performed by the Conservatory The 
atre Company under the direction of William 
Ball. The three-month series is being pro 
duced by New York City s ETV station WNDT 
under a program grant from the Bristol- 
Myers Company. (Reshown Saturday, 9 p.m.) 

Reston, Va., made a lake to arrest suburban 
sprawl one of America s Crises . . . March 14, 
15 and 18. 



March 9 re- 


A pride of poets, scanned by KQED for U 


the cuff on-camera comment by general 
manager James Day. 

10:00 (MUSIC) INTOLLERANZA . . . March 11 re- 

MONDAY, March 14 


12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Children Growing- 
Insight into a child s struggle to be "him 

4:00 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . Preview of Thurs 
day s 8:30 p.m. program. 

4:30 U.S.A.: ARTISTS . . . Richard Lippold Pre 
view of Thursday s 8 p.m. program. 

5:00 WHAT S NEW 

5:30 CHILDREN S FAIR ... A moppet s playland 
of puppets, storytellers and less-than-wild 

6:00 WHAT S NEW ... Ti Jean Goes West 

by Manuel de Falla. 

. Fantasia Betica 


7:00 FOLK GUITAR (KQED) . . . Illustrating the 
bar chords built on E and A, Laura Weber 
sings "Lonesome Road," "Mine Ma Tov," 
and "De Los Cuatro Muleros." (Reshown 

7:30 ANTIQUES . . . Steinware Antique codec 
tor Baron Frary von Blomberg displays a 
unique collection of the earliest German 

of the People Some of The Time The 
Chronicle s chess champion tells of a match 
between Dr. Lasker and Tarasch for the 
world championship and of loser Tarasch s 
subsequent book explaining how he could 
have won every game. (Reshown Saturday.) 

8:30 AMERICA S CRISES ... The Rise of New 

Towns N.E.T undertakes a detailed ap 
praisal of America s urban dilemma be 
ginning its examination of the troubled city 
with a look at the upspringing "planned 
communities" designed to distribute the 
density and thus lessen the problems of 
existing metropolitan areas. (Reshown to 
morrow and Friday.) 




9:30 CITY BEAT: MEL WAX (KQED) ... The in s 
and out s of local politics. 

9:50 RADENZEL REPORTS (KQED) ... the nation 
and the world. 


lectables from Omar Khayyam s restaurant 
provide nourishment for this evening s 
guests, preparing them for a lively hour of 
conversation. James Day hosts Leon Katz, 
playwright, director, and professor of English 
and world literature at San Francisco State; 
Philip Rhinelander, professor of philosophy 
and humanities at Stanford; Rabbi Alvin 
Fine; and pediatrician Charles C. Weill. 



try ... Tuesdays at 10 p.m., Thursdays at 4. 



f. McClure 

TUESDAY. March 15 


12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Museum Open 
House Preview of Thursday 10 p.m. 

4:00 AMERICA S CRISES . . . The Rise of New 
Towns March 14 reshowing. 

5:00 WHAT S NEW 

5:30 SING HI SING LO (KQED) . . . Early Houses. 

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT ... Very Little Boy. 

6:00 WHAT S NEW ... Life in the Woodlot and 
How to Build an Igloo. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Selections from 
Dufay s Missa "I Homme Arme." The Berke 
ley Chamber Singers, conducted by Alden 


This two-part study of Eskimo art begins 
with an exhibition of several varieties of folk 
art originally assembled and loaned to KQED 
by the Lytton Center, Palo Alto. Included are 
soapstone carvings, excellent examples of 
prints made by the Eskimos of Cape Dorset 
and a rare collection of ancient ivory hex car 
vings. Mrs. Lillian Jaffe, expert on Canadian 
Eskimo art, and KQED S music director Bill 
Triest comment on the collection. 

7:30 OPENING NIGHT (KQED) . . . Midsummer 
Night s Dream KQED s drama reviewer Da 
vid Littlejohn gives his opening night im 
pressions of the final Actor s Workshop pro 
duction for the current subscription season. 
Shakespeare s comedy receives unusual dec 
orative treatment at the hands of Jim Dine, 
New York pop artist (U.S.A. March 3) who 
designed the sets. 

8:00 CONCERT (KQED) . . . Marcella DeCray, harp. 

Variations on a Swiss Air Beethoven 

Pastorale, Theme and Variations Handel 

Prelude in C Prokofiev 

Improvisations George Mathias 

Sarabanda e Toccata Nino Rota 

Sonata for Harp Ernst Krenek 

9:00 OPEN END ... Woman s Worst Enemy- 
Five Swinging Hairdressers Some very 
frank gentlemen give an inside report a 
la Count Marco, on feminine foibles. David 
Susskind encourages the gossip. 

10:00 U.S.A.: POETRY . . . Robert Duncan and John 
Wieners two San Francisco poets who ex 
emplify the new spirit of romance in con 
temporary poetry. The KQED Film Unit visit 
ed Robert Duncan s home to view the en 
vironment which so influences his poetry, 
and to film the leader in the so-called 
Berkeley Renaissance as he reads "The Ar 
chitecture" from a work in progress and 
excerpts from "A Biographical Note" and 
"A Statement on Poetics." John Wieners 
reads amid the debris of the San Francisco s 
old Hotel Wentley: "A Poem for Painters" 
from the "Hotel Wentley Poems," "Co 
caine," and an excerpt from a current prose 
project. (Reshown Thursday.) 

10:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE ... The Impact 
of Automation on Marketing All of tonight s 
guests agree that the trouble with automa 
tion is that it can t be made "moron proof." 
Appearing are: Donald C. Burnham, a West 
inghouse Electric executive; John Diebold, 
president of The Diebold Group, Inc.; and 
Peter Drucker, author and consultant. 


The engravings of Kenojuak, a 
Cape Dorset Eskimo woman, 
are among those admired by 
Eskimo Art and Legend . . . 
March 15 and 22, 7 p.m. 

WEDNESDAY. March 16 


12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Language in Action 
The literal and emotional aspects of words 
are studied by Dr. Hayakawa. 

4:00 FOLK GUITAR . . . March 14 reshowing 

4:30 THE SCOTCH GARDENER . . . March 11 re 

5:00 WHAT S NEW 

5:30 ART STUDIO (KQED) . . . Kites. 

5:45 SING HI SING LO (KQED) ... The Shake- 

6:00 WHAT S NEW 
for Survival. 

. The Salmon s Struggle 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Sibelius Sym 
phony No. 5 in E Hat, Op. 82. 

7:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . Criminalistics 

Science and crime are closely linked at the 
University of California s Department of 
Criminalistics. Professor Paul Kirk leads a 
tour of the laboratories that produce evi 
dence for the courts. David Perlman reports 
the scientific news. (Reshown Friday and 

7:30 GREAT DECISIONS . . . Resurgent Japan- 
Film shots document Japan s transition from 
a defeated nation to one of the world s most 
prosperous countries. Host David Schoen- 
brun discusses Japan s future with Japanese 
Ambassador to the United States Ryuji Take- 
uchi. (Reshown Friday). 


8:30 TURN OF THE CENTURY ... The Big City- 
Original lantern slides and dramatic vi 
gnettes illustrate the mass urban migration 
of the early 1900 s. 



. . . How do our international commercial 
transactions affect our national policies 
the world s attitude to us? Explored in this 
hour, the dichotomies of the relationship 
between economics and policy. (Reshown 
Saturday, 10:30 p.m.) 

THURSDAY, March 17 


12:30 AT NOON ON NINE ... The French Chef- 
Preview of today s 8:30 p.m. program. 


4:00 U.SA: POETRY . . . March 15 reshowing. 

4:30 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Preview of today s 
7 p.m. program. 

5:00 WHAT S NEW 

5:30 ONCE UPON A DAY ... Charity Bailey. 

6:00 WHAT S NEW ... Riches of the Earth and 
The Shepherd. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Arias from Doni 
zetti operas, sung by Montserrat Caballe. 

7:00 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Wheel Alignment and 
Balance A demonstration to promote bet 
ter tire wear. Richard Pinette is mechanic- 

7:30 THE NEW COMERS (KQED) . . . Death Often 

a difficult subject for the younger generation 
to grasp, death receives some mature con 
templation by Channel 9 teens. Buzz Ander 
son is presiding adult. (Reshown Friday) 

8:00 U.S.A.: ARTISTS ... The Sun and Richard 
Lippold Sun and light are caught casting 
reflections on landscapes, people and sea 
as metaphors for the work of sculpture Rich 
ard Lippold. Shots of the artist in his studio 
and of his works, including his "Sun" at the 
New York s Metropolitan Museum of Art, 
are interspersed in the photographic study 
of objects and atmosphere that inspire Lip- 
pold s sculpture. 

8:30 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . The Endive Show- 
Tender Belgian endive, with a taste as ap 
petizing as its looks, lends itself to special 
preparations in butter, wine or cream. Julia 
Child demonstrates the making of endives 
a la meuniere, flamande. Normande, and 
au Madere. 

9:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA (KQED) ... New Bay 
Bridge Prospect: A Southern CrossingCas 
par Weinberger gathers the experts for de 
bate. Presented with the financial assistance 
of the San Francisco Examiner. (Reshown 

10:00 MUSEUM OPEN HOUSE ... The Woman in 
the Studio Though not as prominent as 
her male counterpart, the woman artist is 
well represented at Boston s Museum of 
Fine Art. 


FRIDAY. March 18 

11:30 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . March 16 reshow 







AT NOON ON NINE . . . Casals Master Class 
Casals students perform Bach: Suite 
Number 3 in C Major and Suite Number 1 
in G Major for unaccompanied cello. 

THE NEW COMERS . . . March 17 reshowing. 
GREAT DECISIONS . . . March 16 reshowing. 
ART STUDIO... Kites. 


Whafs Your 

WHAT S NEW . . . Caribou Hunters and Point 

PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Folk Song, "The 

Grown Herbs for home cooking suggested 
by Jim Kerr. (Reshown Wednesday) 

AMERICA S CRISES ... The Rise of New 

Towns March 14 reshowing. 


... The World War II occupation of France 
is the setting for Gertrude Stein s play of 
family relationships and strained loyalties. 
David Wheeler directs the Theatre Company 
of Boston, with Paul Benedict as Henri, 
Bronia Stefan playing Constance, Burris de 
Banning as Ferdinand and Ann Richards as 
Denise. (Reshown Sunday, 10 p.m.) 


As you know, we are currently of 
fering a set of three professional- 
quality French knives as a premi 
um gift only to those people join 
ing the station as new members 
giving $25 or more. In response to 
inquiries from our present mem 
bers who have expressed an inter 
est in purchasing a set of these 
knives, we have arranged to make 
them available at a special price of 
$11.50 to those interested. (The 
retail price is $18.00.) Send a 
check to "Knives," KQED, 525 
Fourth Street, San Francisco. 



10:45 WORLD HISTORY ... The Scramble For 
Africa The Dark Continent lured many 
European countries to colonization at the 
end of the 19th century. 

SATURDAY. March 19 

5:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE . . . Preview of 
Tuesday s 10:30 p.m. program. 

6:00 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX ... How to take 
tricks when the contract is in suit. (Reshown 

6:30 KOLTANOWSKI ON CHESS . . . March 14 re 

7:00 FILMS A LA CARTE . . . White Throat Can 

ada s white-throated sparrow filmed in the 
Algonquin forest. 

7:30 BOOK BEAT . . . Meyer Levin and his new 
book Stronghold, receive the attention of 
Robert Cromie. 

8:00 THE OPEN MIND . . 

and titillating, under 

Discussion, topical 
the aegis of Eric 

9:00 (DEBUT) SUNDAY SHOWCASE . . . Under 
Milk Wood March 12 reshowing. 


. . . March 16 reshowing. 

SUNDAY. March 20 



6:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . March 16 reshowing. 

6:30 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX ... March 19 re 

7:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA ... March 17 reshowing. 

8:00 SUNDAY SHOWCASE . . . Lincoln Center Spe 
cialAs we go to press, we re not entirely 
sure which of the five Lincoln Center per 
forming groups will entertain you this eve 
ning. Or how how long the performance will 
be. We can only suggest that you dial 9 for 
what we know will be good viewing. (And 
the reshowing will be next Saturday, March 
26, 9 p.m.) 


starting time is approximate which also 
applies to . . . 


. . . March 18 reshowing. 

MONDAY. March 21 





AT NOON ON NINE . . . Children Growing 

The candid questions of four and five year 
olds are partly answered by Dr. Maria Piers. 

THE FRENCH CHEF . . . Preview of Thurs- 
day s 8:30 p.m. program. 

Preview of Thursday s 


8 p.m. program. 


WHAT S NEW . . . Carpenters of the Forest 
and The Land of the Long Day. 

PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Dances from Italian 


7:00 FOLK GUITAR (KQED) . . . Laura Weber 
teaches the Folk Guitar theme song "Free 
dom Calling" by Phil Ochs. (Reshown 

7:30 ANTIQUES . . . Clocks Among them, a nov 
el antique timepiece made of a cast iron 
dog whose ears flop with each tick. 

8:00 KOLTANOWSKI ON CHESS ... The Russian 
Bears All about Russian chess players, by 
far the leaders in the International Chess 
Federation. (Reshown Saturday) 

8:30 (DEBUT) DOLLARS AND SENSE . . . Caveat 
emptor and so that the buyer may be 
wary N.E.T. initiates a monthly study of the 
American marketplace to inform and guide 
the consumer who wants his money s worth. 
Over-the-counter drugs are the subject of 
this first half-hour. Among those appearing 
is Dr. William N. O Brien, assistant professor 
at Yale and medical advisor to Consumers 
Union whose findings were made available 
to N.E.T. for this series. Dr. O Brien dis 
cusses misrepresentation among some 
brand-name drugs. Originally scheduled for 
February. (Reshown tomorrow and Friday.) 

9:00 IN MY OPINION . . . Leading newspaper col 
umnists take to the air to air their views on 
a variety of subjects. (Reshown tomorrow 
and Friday) 



IS OF NO INTEREST (KQED) ... Dr. Russel 
Lee and Dr. Gerald Feigen play a return en 
gagement at the table of host James Day. 
They are joined in conversation by Robert 
Commanday, S.F. Chronicle music critic and 
choral director of the Oakland Symphony 
Orchestra. Rolf s Since 1960 is the restau 
rant with the food for thought. 


TUESDAY. March 22 


12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Museum Open House 

Advance showing of Thursday s 10 p.m. 

4:00 (DEBUT) DOLLARS AND SENSE . . . March 
21 reshowing. 

4:30 IN MY OPINION . . . March 21 reshowing 
5:00 WHAT S NEW 

5:30 SING HI SING LO (KQED) . . . Pirates Off 
Our Coast 

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT . . . Little Wild Horses. 

6:00 WHAT S NEW ... The Changing Forest and 
Land of the Long Day. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Symphony No. 4 

by David Diamond. 


. . . The Living Stone In a sequel to last 
week s studio study of Eskimo art, a Cana 
dian Film Board production depicts the crea 
tion of Eskimo stone carvings. Each carving 
represents a tale or religious symbol con 
nected with the summer search for food 
from the sea and each can be the subject 
of an evening s storytelling during the long 
northern winter. 


a consideration of the Boston production of 
Rolf Hochhuth s controversial "anti-Catholic" 
drama "The Deputy," Boston drama critic 
Elliott Norton quizzes director and actors on 
their opinions about the play s justice and 
their feelings toward Pope Pius XII. 

8:00 CONCERT (KQED) ... The Youth Chamber 
Orchestra of the Oakland Symphony, Robert 
Hughes, conductor. Soloists for this concert 
are: Thomas Halpin, violin; Amy Jusian, 
piano; Joseph Halpin, contrabass; Vahan 
Toolajian, bass (guest artist). 
Suite for Violin, Piano and 
Small Orchestra Lou Harrison 

Marcella DeCray plays Beethoven, Prokofiev, Krenek 
and Handel on Concert . . . March 15, 8 p.m. 

Per Questa Bella Mano, 

K. 612 (Concert aria for bass voice 

and orchestra with contrabass 

obbligato) Mozart 

Variaciones Concertantes Ginastera 

9:00 OPEN END 

10:00 U.S.A.: POETRY ... Gary Snyder and Philip 
Whalen poets with an Oriental orientation. 
Eight years spent in Japan are reflected in 
Gary Snyder s readings, among which are: 
"Hay for the Horses," "Above Pate Valley" 
and "The Market." His friend Whalen is 
seen in the courtyard of the California Pal 
ace of the Legion of Honor in San Francisco 
reading "Homage to Rodin," "A Very Com 
plicated Way of Saying Appearances De 
ceive" and the prose piece "Since You Ask 
Me." Third U.S.A.: Poetry production by the 
KQED Film Unit. (Reshown Thursday) 

10:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE . . . Loosening 
the Grip on Strangled Profits From his 
guests, Edward Bursk learns that com 
petition and the spiralling cost of labor have 
created a profit squeeze. The experts offer 
suggestions to "loosen the grip." 


WEDNESDAY, March 23 


12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Language in Action 
The history of social organization through 

4:00 FOLK GUITAR . . . March 21 reshowing. 

4:30 THE SCOTCH GARDENER . . . March 18 re- 

5:00 WHAT S NEW 

5:30 ART STUDIO (KQED) . . . Kites. 

5:45 SING HI SING LO (KQED) . . . Indian Com. 

6:00 WHAT S NEW ... The Chairmaker and the 
Boys and Land of the Long Day. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Dvorak s Slavonic 
Dances for piano four hands. 

7:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . Electron Micro 
scopes A single cell is enlarged to the size 
of a room in the fantastic science of super- 
magnification. James Harvey McAlear, head 
of the department of microscopy, U.C., 
Berkeley, tours the labs of his department. 
David Perlman reports the scientific news. 
(Reshown Friday and Sunday) 

7:30 GREAT DECISIONS . . . Latin America Fol 
lowing an analytical enumeration of the 
myriad internal problems bedeviling Latin 
American nations, Senator Robert Kennedy 
and David Schoenbrun talk of U.S. policy as 
it affects and is affected by the inter-Amer 
ican relationship. (Reshown Friday) 


8:30 TURN OF THE CENTURY . . . Yesterday s 
Homework in the days when learning and 
memorization were one and the same. 


10:00 INTERTEL ... Men in Black A changing 
world confronts the tradition-steeped Roman 
Catholic priesthood. Intertel examines the 
new paths and problems faced by the men 
in black in England and Ireland. Originally 
scheduled for February. (Reshown Saturday, 
10:30 p.m.) 

THURSDAY. March 24 


12:30 AT NOON ON NINE ... The French Chef- 
Preview of today s 8:30 p.m. program. 

4:00 U.S.A.: POETS . . . March 22 reshowing. 

4:30 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Preview of today s 
7 p.m. program. 

5:00 WHAT S NEW 

5:30 ONCE UPON A DAY ... Charity Bailey. 

6:00 WHAT S NEW ... The St Lawrence Seaway 
and Land of the Long Day. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Concerto Grosso 
No. 1 by Ernest Bloch. 

7:00 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Brake System A 

lesson that could be life-saving, taught by 
Richard Pinette. 

7:30 THE NEW COMERS (KQED) . . . Advertising 

How much can the craze for granny 
dresses and tight pants be attributed to ad 
vertising? The panel plumbs teenage buying 
habits. (Reshown Friday) 

8:00 U.S.A.: ARTISTS . . . Kenneth Noland 

8:30 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . Saddle of Lamb- 
No need to wait for a great feast in an Eng 
lish country house roast saddle of lamb 
is easy to prepare for your own chic little 
dinner party. 

9:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA ... God and the Secu 
lar City Religion in the spotlight: the re 
sults of the Ecumenical Council, the recent 
"God is Dead" discussions, and new develop 
ments in theology. Among Caspar Weinber 
ger s guests is Harvey Coe, author of The 
Secular City. Presented with the financial 
assistance of the Associated Students of 
S.F. State College. (Reshown Sunday.) 

10:00 MUSEUM OPEN HOUSE . . . Vogue s Gallery 

The disinterment of some of the artists 
whose fame, undeservedly, has not outlived 
their time. 


FRIDAY. March 25 

11:30 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . March 23 reshow 



12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Casals Master Class 
Casals supervises the performance of 
Saint-Sams Concerto No. 1, Opus 33 (first 
and second movements). 


4:00 THE NEW COMERS . . . March 24 reshowing. 

4:30 GREAT DECISIONS . . . March 23 reshowing. 

5:00 WHAT S NEW 

5:30 ART STUDIO (KQED) . . . Animal Drawing. 

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT . . . Western Songs. 

6:00 WHAT S NEW ... Indian Canoemen and the 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Haydn s Symphony 
No. 44 in E Minor, performed by the Neth 
erlands Chamber Orchestra. 

7:00 THE SCOTCH GARDENER (KQED) . . . Viewer 
Mail Jim Kerr reads the month s mail and 
answers viewers questions. (Reshown 



8:00 IN MY OPINION . . . March 21 reshowing. 


. . . The baton of dramatic conductor Zubin 
Merita leads the Los Angeles Philharmonic 
in a videotaped performance of Haydn s 
Symphony No. 96 in D ("Miracle"); Barber s 
Piano Concerto, soloist John Browning; and 
Strauss Also Sprach Zarathustra. (Reshown 
Sunday, 10 p.m.) 

9:30 WHERE IS JIM CROW? . . . March 23 re- 

10:00 WORLD HISTORY . . . Imperialism in Ma 
in the late 19th century, the British and the 
French were extending their holdings 
throughout Asia. 

SATURDAY. March 26 

5:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE . . . Advance 
showing of Tuesday s 10:30 p.m. program. 

6:00 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX ... A lesson in 
three ways of taking tricks. (Reshown Sun 
day, 6:30 p.m.) 

6:30 KOLTANOWSKI ON CHESS . . . March 21 

7:00 FILMS A LA CARTE . . . Crafts of My Prov 
ince by New Brunswick artists; Ma Prov 
ince, Mes Chansons Jacques Labrecque 
sings songs reflecting the spirit and tradi 
tion of French Canada. 

7:30 BOOK BEAT . . . Norman Mailer waxes elo 
quent on the subject of his book The Great 
Salad Oil Swindle. 


9:00 SUNDAY SHOWCASE . . . Lincoln Center 
Special March 20 reshowing. 

10:30 INTERTEL ... Men in Black . . . March 23 



Scheduled air services on IATA carriers. All-inclusive tour price: $1098.00 
(Available to non-members at an all-inclusive price of $1383.00) 
"SPRING CHARTER TO EUROPE (#902) Apr. 29 -May 29 

San Francisco/ London/ San Francisco Approximate air-fare: $400.00 

via TWA jet. 

"FALL CHARTER TO EUROPE (#906) Sept. 30 -Oct. 27 

San Francisco/ Frankfurt (London optional); Approximate air- fare: $400.00 

return from Paris, via Lufthansa jet. 

(Membership eligibility date for this charter is Nov. 29, 1965) 

"To participate in these trips, you or a member of your family must be a member 
of KQED at the time application was made by KQED to the carrier and not less 
than 6 months prior to departure date. 

And 5 Summer Group Flights To Europe 

Flights #904, 905, 907, 908 and 909 departing San Francisco 
for various European destinations between June 15 and July 12. 
Round trip air fares $532.20 to $592.20. Available to those who 
have been KQED members for 6 months prior to departure date. 

For information, call or write KQED Travelplan 
SUtter 1-8861 525 Fourth St., San Francisco 7 


SUNDAY. March 27 



6:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . March 23 reshowing. 

6:30 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX ... March 26 re- 

7:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA . . . March 24 reshowing. 

8:00 SUNDAY SHOWCASE ... The Fine Arts 

Again, we can only tell you that tonight s 
program will be the first of three showcasing 
the fine arts, traditional and contemporary. 
In effect, these televised expositions of 
painting and sculpture will be "museums 
without walls." (Reshown Saturday, April 2, 
9 p.m.) 



March 25 reshowing. 

MONDAY. March 28 


12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Children Growing 

The battle lines of sibling rivalry delineated 
by Dr. Piers. 

4:00 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . Preview of Thurs 
day s 8:30 p.m. program. 

4:30 U.S.A.: ARTISTS . . . Preview of Thursday s 
8 p.m. program. 

5:00 WHAT S NEW 


6:00 WHAT S NEW ... World in a Marsh. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Deux Portraits, 
Op. 5, by Bel? Bartok. 


7:00 FOLK GUITAR (KQED) . . . Time to practice: 
the plucking strum with "In Good Old Col 
ony Times" and the brush strum and ham 
mering on with "Charlie is My Darling." 
(Reshown Wednesday) 

7:30 ANTIQUES . . . Country Auctions Hints 
about auctions to make them profitable 
as well as exciting. 

flections in a Mirror Autobiographical notes 
on an ex-Belgian chess champion Koltan- 
owski. (Reshown Saturday) 

film periodical of international feature stor 
ies by foreign journalists. David M. Culhane 
is host-"editor." (Reshown tomorrow and 


IS OF NO INTEREST (KQED) ... but to 
night s guests use a variety of other topics 
as grist for their conversational mill. For 
good talk, and a dinner served by Giovanni s 
restaurant, host James Day welcomes: Ger- 
maine Thompson, World Press reporter for 
French newspapers and the Alliance Fran- 
caise; Dr. George Medley, emeritus chaplain 
and professor of economics and sociology at 
Mills College; and international lawyer Fritz 


TUESDAY. March 29 


12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Museum Open 
House Preview of Thursday 10:00 p.m. 


5:00 WHAT S NEW 



6:00 WHAT S NEW ... Sable Island. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Grieg: Concerto 
in A Minor, Op. 16. 

VOLUME 12, No. 6, MARCH, 1966. "KQED IN FOCUS" is published monthly by the non 
profit Bay Area Educational Television Association, 525 Fourth Street, San Francisco 7, 
SUtter 1-8861. This monthly program guide is available only to members of the Association 
who contribute $12.50 or more annually to the support of KQED. Contributions in any 
amount to KQED are tax deductible. 

Editor . . . HARLINE HURST Assistant Kditor . . . KAKYN HOLT 


7:00 CIRCUS . . . High in the Air ... Circus dare 
devils perform their feats high in the air, 
recapturing the nostalgia of the fascinating 
Big Top. "La Norma" does "heel catches" 
without a net; Zacchini and Munoz are shot 
from cannons. 

7:30 OPENING NIGHT (KQED) ... The Empire 
Builders Recent experimental productions 
at the Actor s Workshop s second theatre 
come in for a word of praise and perhaps 
a caustic comment or two from KQED s 
candid critic David Littlejohn. Special atten 
tion tonight to the late Boris Vian s 1959 
play "The Empire Builders" which opened 
February 18 at the Encore Theatre for an 
indefinite run. 

8:00 CONCERT (KQED) ... The winners of the 
seventh annual Oakland Symphony Young 
Artists Award presented in performance. 
Gerhard Samuel, musical director and con 
ductor of the Oakland Symphony Orchestra, 
hosts this special program. 

9:00 OPEN END 

10:00 U.S.A.: POETRY . . . Brother Antoninus and 
Michael McClure Though their environ 
ments and poetic styles differ widely, Mi 
chael McClure and Brother Antoninus equal 
one another in intense emotional involve 
ment with their poetry. Demonstrating what 
has been described as "the savagery of 
love" in his poems, Dominican lay brother 
Antoninus reads "In All These Acts" and 
"Annul in Me My Manhood." McClure re 
gales the lions at the San Francisco Zoo 
with an unpublished poem dedicated to Al 
len Ginsberg, the poem "Night Words" and 
two works from his book Ghost Tantras. A 
KQED Film Unit production. (Reshown 

10:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE ... The Common 
Market: Costs Versus Opportunity Tonight s 
panel discusses the necessity of adapting 
American goods to the needs of the foreign 

WEDNESDAY. March 30 



12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Language in Action. 

4:00 FOLK GUITAR . . . March 28 reshowing. 

4:30 THE SCOTCH GARDENER . . . March 25 re 


5:30 ART STUDIO (KQED) . . . Animal Painting. 

Jeunes hommes, jeunes filles, la guerre = drama. 
Gertrude Stein called it Yes Is for a Very Young 
Man ... March 18, 8:30 p.m., March 20, 10 p.m. 

6:00 WHAT S NEW ... A Day in June. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Shostakovich: 
Symphony No. 5. Leonard Bernstein con 
ducts the New York Philharmonic. 

7:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . Viticulture The 

science of grape growing, one of the oldest 
agricultural sciences studied with the guid 
ance of Don McColly, president and general 
manager of the Wine Institute in San Fran 
cisco. The week s scientific news is reported 
by David Perlman. (Reshown Friday and 

7:30 GREAT DECISIONS . . . Making Foreign Pol 
icy in a Nuclear Age Who should set the 
nation s foreign policy? Interviews and com 
mentary search out ways to divide the re 
sponsibility between the president and the 
Congress. Communications experts speak of 
the role of mass media in shading foreign 
policy. (Reshown Friday) 


8:30 TURN OF THE CENTURY . . . Stand Close! 
Sing Loud! Commandment for the rigorous 
recording sessions that supplied records to 
19th century parlor phonographs. 



10:00 REGIONAL REPORT ... The Republicans- 
Reporters throughout the nation probe their 
own region s reactions to the current state 
of the Republican Party. Republican popu 
larity and public image are contrasted from 
the deep south to San Francisco. (Reshown 
Saturday, 10:30 p.m.) 

THURSDAY, March 31 


12:30 AT NOON ON NINE ... The French Chef- 
Preview of today s 8:30 p.m. program. 

4:00 U.S.A.: POETRY . . . March 29 reshowing. 

4:30 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Preview of today s 
7 p.m. program. 

5:00 WHAT S NEW 


6:00 WHAT S NEW ... Ti-Jean Goes Lumbering. 

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Mahler s Sym 
phony No. 4 in G (3rd and 4th Movements). 

7:00 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Engine Electric Start 
ing System. 

7:30 THE NEW COMERS (KQED) . . . High School 
to College It s homecoming day for the 
"new comers" who appeared on Channel 9 
last year and have since entered college. "All 
grown up," they give advice to this year s 
high school seniors. (Reshown Friday) 

8:00 U.S.A.: ARTISTS . . . Frank Stella. 

8:30 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . Napoleons Kirsch- 

flavored whipped cream between light but 
tery pastry concocts a tempting dessert or 
tea-tray adornment. Heroine of the sweet- 
toothed, Julia Child demonstrates the art of 
French puff pastry, and uses it to create 
the delectable Napoleons. 

9:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA {KQED) ... Art, Mu 
seums and the Bay Area Leading museum 
directors and art critics consider the Bay 
Area s appreciation of the fine arts. Caspar 
Weinberger hosts. Presented with the finan 
cial assistance of the San Francisco Exami 
ner. (Reshown Sunday.) 

10:00 MUSEUM OPEN HOUSE . . . Motion and 
Emotion: Baroque Sculpture The tensions 
of the Baroque Age, dramatically tangible 
in the twisting lines of its sculpture seen 
in the Boston Museum of Fine Art. 


We gratefully acknowledge the financial as 
sistance of these KQED program under 

Associated Students of S.F. State College 

The Crown Zellerbach Foundation 

Gump s of San Francisco 

Hills Bros. Coffee of San Francisco 

Jenkel-Davidson Optical Company 

The Junior League of Oakland 

Pacific Gas and Electric Company 

The San Francisco Examiner 

Wells Fargo Bank 

Ron Moody is Autolicus, one of Shakespeare s wit 
tiest clowns, in A Winter s tale . . . April 1 and 3 



FRIDAY. April 1 







5:00 WHAT S NEW 



6:00 WHAT S NEW 




SATURDAY. April 2 



. . . March features on other Bay Area television stations. 


A nuclear weapons discussion, starring Senator 
Rcbert Kennedy and the Early Bird Satellite. 
March 1 10 p.m. Channel 5 


Sunday morning literary salons consider Virgil and 
Cervantes, among others. 
Sundays 9:30 a.m. Channel 4 


Johnny Carson is the voice of Stuart in this Chil 
dren s Theatre production of E. B. White s tale of 
a metropolitan mouse. 
March 6 6:30 p.m. Channel 4 


The U.S. Navy s role against an enemy with no 
sea power. 

March 10 10 p.m. Channel 7 


Roland Petit and Zizi Jeanmaire star in a frolic 
costumed by Yves St. Laurent. 
March 11 7:30 p.m. Channel 4 


Lowell Thomas adventures along one of the world s 

oldest trading routes. 

March 16 9 p.m. Channel 2 


Luther, Calvin, Ignatius spiritual mavericks of the 
16th century. 

March 20 6:30 p.m. Channel 4 


A tour of the "in" and "out" places that brighten 
and tarnish California s golden image. 
March 23 9 p.m. Channel 2 


Schroeder s idol revisited in an ABC documentary. 
March 23 10 p.m. Channel 7 


Films of the two funnymen are hosted by fan 

Steve Allen. 

March 30 9 p.m. Channel 2 


A ramble below the Mason-Dixon. Robert Preston 

is guide. 

March 31 9 p.m. Channel 7 



Monday tuesday Wednesday fAursday frfday 
















































Repeat Programs 

O m 


from the Daily Californian, 8 November 1966 

A Pre-Beat Poet With Love 


Entertainment Editor 

When Ed Sanders of "The Fugs" heard William 
Everson read poetry in Greenwich Village, he left 
the hall muttering, "I came to dig this cat s poetry, 
but I didn t ask him to mess around with my soul." 

Everson, under the name of Brother Antoninus, 
which he assumed upon taking Dominican Orders 
in 1951, will give his first Bay Area poetry reading 
in four years at 8:15 p.m. tomorrow in Wheeler 

He has three books of published poetry, one of 
which, "Single Source," is published by Oyez Press 
in Berkeley. Doubleday is soon to publish "The 
Rose of Solitude," and a prose study of Robinson 
Jeffers will be forthcoming from Oyez in the near 

It is conceivable that some of the poems he will 
reading will be from his unpublished work, Anto- 
(Continued on Page 14) 


ninus said yesterday. But he does 
not know what he ll read until he 
appears because he works by 
establishing an intense and close 
relationship with the audience. 

Billed under the heading. "The 
Savagery of Love," his encounters 
with the audience are just that. 

At Boston College last year he 
doused a student photographer 
with a glass of water, resumed the 
platform, and asked, "How can a 
man make love with a camera on 
him?" . , 

Antoninus was born in 1912, 
and grew up in Fresno County. 
During World War II he was a 
conscientious objector (he says 
he would still be a CO if the draft 
were to come around to him 
again), and encountered mysti 
cism in the form of Vedants at 
the CO camp. When he returned 
to the area he joined a group of 
anarcho-pacifists and bohemians 
who formed the "pre-Beat" phase 
of the San Francisco poetry move 

At a press conference yester 
day he condemned the use of 
LSD and similar drugs as adoles 
cent, a kind of "mystical mastur 
bation," which serves, on one 
level, as a substitute for sin. 

"It s attraction arises from be 
ing holy and forbidden. It pro 
vides an accent on the content of 
experience, and eliminates the 
content of belief." 

He condemned "the appearance 
of narcotics in the guise of prime 
mystical techniques," when they 
are really "only second rate." 

"They provide vision without 
the preparation for vision. This 
is probably the reason for break 
ups. LSD opens the ego to the 
Divine, and a radical displace 
ment of sensibility is the risk. 
Profane man must be prepared 
before he enters the transcenden 
tal areas. 

"LSD attacks and obviates this, 
as if we become more secular 
when the chips are down. The im 
pact of a vision of the Divine 
provides a resonance on the sen 
sibilities. Drugs replace prepara 
tion for wisdom. 

"That s why I m shocked to 
hear people like Alan Watts and 
Gary Snyder, whose prestige 
comes from Zen, denying their 
own disciplines and the teaching 
of Zen by letting people think 
this is a prime mystical vision."