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University of California Bancroft Library/Berkeley

Regional Oral History Office

BROTHER ANTONINUS: POET, PRINTER, AND RELIGIOUS

An Interview Conducted by
Ruth Teiser

Berkeley
1966

Bancroft library

Brother Antoninus
being interviewed by the Regional Oral History Office

Publication rights reserved
by Ruth Teiser

SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE
June 4, 1994

William Everson
— Beat Era
Poet-Printer

Davenport,
Santa Cruz County

William Everson, a famed Beat
Generation poet and printer better
known as Brother Antoninus, died
in his sleep early yesterday.

Long ailing with Parkinson's
disease and restricted to a wheel
chair, he was 81 and lived in a rus
tic cabin in Santa Cruz County that
he named Kingfisher Flat.

Mr. Everson was a Roman Cath
olic convert who spent many years
as a Dominican monk, but the erot
ic nature of much of his poetry up
set the church hierarchy and he
gave up monastic life about 25
years ago when he married the
first of his three wives.

An influential figure in Ameri
can literary life for 50 years, he
was honored at a 1992 reception
given in San Francisco by the Cali
fornia Book Club.

Wreathed in a white beard that
made him look like a latter-day
Walt Whitman, Mr. Everson had to
struggle for each word as he told
the assembled bibliophiles and
connoisseurs of small-press print
ing: "Printing has always come
easy to me. I seek perfection hi
printing in a way I do not in poet
ry. In poetry, perfection is fatal, in
printing it is necessary."

Mr. Everson taught poetry and
handset printing at the University
of California at Santa Cruz until
his retirement in 1982. He gained
fame hi the San Francisco literary
renaissance of the 1940s and the
Beat movement of the '50s, along
with such figures as Kenneth Rex-
roth, Kenneth Patchen, Lawrence
Ferlinghetti and Michael McClure.

As Brother Antoninus, he was a
recipient of a Guggenheim f ellow-

mtmoto

WILLIAM EVERSON

He was Brother Antoninus

ship, and his benign presence
made him a popular figure on the
college lecture circuit for many
years.

"He was a great poet, and a
very kind and gentle person," said
his former wife Mary Fabilli of
Berkeley.

Born in Sacramento, he grew
up in the small town of Selma, near
Fresno, the son of a Swedish band
master. He attended Fresno State
College and in World War n was
interned as a conscientious objec
tor in Oregon.

Mr. Everson's last book, "Blood "
of the Poet," a collection of his po
ems, was published earlier this
year by the Broken Moon Press hi
Seattle.

He is survived by a son, Jude
Everson, of Santa Cruz. Funeral ar
rangements were incomplete, but
close friends said a funeral Mass is
planned, and burial will probably
be at the Dominican cemetery in
Benicia.

— MaitlandZant

All uses of this manuscript are covered by an agreement between
the Regents of the University of California and Brother Antoninus,
dated 30 June 1966. The manuscript is thereby made available for
research purposes. All literary rights in the manuscript, including
the right to publish, are reserved to Brother Antoninus until 1967.
No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication without the
written permission of the Director of the Bancroft Library of the
University of California at Berkeley.

INTRODUCTION

Critical acclaim for his poetry first came to William Everson in
the years just before the second World War. Critical acclaim for his
fine printing came in the years following his first serious interest
in the craft in the war-time conscientious objectors' camp at Waldport,
Oregon. His creative talents in both endeavors continued to flourish
when be became a Dominican Lay Brother, taking the name Brother
Antoninus.

Born in Sacramento, California, in 1912, young Everson grew up in
the San Joaquin Valley. His interest in poetry began in high school
days; but, as he explains in this interview, not until 1934 when he
encountered the work of Robinson Jeffers did the writing of poetry
"open up" for him.

Between 1934 and 1943, when he was drafted and entered the con
scientious objectors' camp, William Everson worked, married, wrote, and
saw three volumes of his poems published. After the war he came to the
San Francisco Bay Area and became a prominent member of the "San Fran
cisco Renaissance" group. He printed on a handpress, wrote poetry,
worked as a janitor at the University of California Press, and married
again, as he here narrates. In 1948 New Directions published a selection
of his poetry under the title The Residual Years, which brought him
national attention. The following year he was awarded a Guggenheim
Foundation grant.

Converted to Catholicism later in 1948, William Everson entered the
Dominican Order in 1951. He took with him handpress, on which he had

Library

printed two distinguished volumes of his own poetry, and at the Order's
House of Studies in Oakland he printed the pages of the Novum Psalterum
Pii XII which he describes in this interview.

He has done no handpress printing since, devoting himself to duties
of the Order, some production printing, studying, writing both poetry
and prose, and recently lecturing at colleges across the country. lie
has no plans to resume fine printing, but late in the spring of ]%fj h<-
told the interviewer that some day he may print on the handpress again.

The interview was held in two sessions, on December 13 and December 21,
1965 at the Dominican Priory in Kentfield, California. Brother Antoninus
spoke fluently but extremely thoughtfully, not censoring expressions of
doubt or conjecture. He looked over but did not do any detailed check of
the transcript.

The Regional Oral History Office was established to tape record
autobiographical interviews with persons prominent in recent California
history. The office is under the direction of Mrs. Willa Baum, and under
the administrative supervision of the Director of the Bancroft Library.
Other interviews of the Office which may supplement the material covered
in this interview have been done with Albert Sperisen, Warren Howell,
Adrian Wilson, Edward deWitt Taylor, and Jane Grabhorn, and others are
underway in the fields of literature, publishing, and printing.

Ruth Teiser
Interviewer

1 September 1966

Regional Oral History Office
Room 486, The Bancroft Library
University of California
Berkeley, California

Bancroft Library

TABLE OF. CONTENTS

The Everson Family 1

Education and Depression Years 4

Conscientious Objectors' Camp 8

Pre-war Poetry and Publication 18

War-time and Post-war Books 22

Final Months at Conscientious Objectors' Camps 24

Morris Graves 30

The Bay Area Post-war Renaissance 36

Rexroth and Anarcho-Pacif ism 40

Berkeley and Printing 43

Influence of Mary Fabilli and Kenneth Rexroth 51

Conversion to Catholicism 55

Guggenheim Grant 58

Catholic Worker House 60

Dominican Order and Psalter 64

Writings 74

Departure From and Return To the Order 81

Work Since 1960 87

Partial Index 94

[First Interview, December 13, 1965]

The Ever son Family

Teiser: You were born in Sacramento in 1912?

Antoninus: September 10, 1912. I had a sister older than myself. She-
was born in Phoenix in 1910. My brother was born in Turlock
in 1913, just 14 months after me. After that we moved to
Selma. Then my mother put a stop to my father's itinerant
life. He was a wandering printer and band master. He used
to go to the small towns in the mid-west to get the city
fathers of the town to set him up to whip the band into
shape over the winter and give the concerts for the next
summer. Of course, those were the days when the band con
certs in the summer were everything. Those little communities
had no other entertainment. Then they would get him a job
on the local paper. That is where he met my mother — in the
printing office of the newspaper in the little town of
Adrian, Minnesota. She was setting type. He came in as a
band master. A dashing young man from out of town and all
that. She fell in love with him, and after he went on they
corresponded and she followed him out west. They were
married in Yuma, 1 think. My sister was born in Phoenix,
I think, or the other way around. Then they came to
California.

Teiser: Was your father born in Norway?

Antoninus: Norwegian, yes.

Teiser: And your mother?

Antoninus: No, she was of different stock. She was German and Irish.
Her father's name was Herber and her mother's name was
Barnett. I don't know anything about my father's people-.
His mother died at his birth. His father was a preacher
of a Pentecostal type religion called the Eversonians. He
founded a sect called the Eversonians.

Teiser: Does it still exist?

Antoninus: I hear that it does. They are in Scandinavia. People tell
me they are quite a bunch. I guess it is pretty extreme.
I don't know anything about them. I heard there arc.- rem
nants of the Eversonians still around though. Of course,
the "E" is spelled "I" there. When my father came, he did
not like the name Iverson so he changed it to Everson. He
was a terrific guy. He was not much of a printer. He was
rather clumsy but he could make do. He never had very good
taste in his designs. He made his living at it most of the
time .

Teiser: Did your mother work with him?

Antoninus: Not so much; she was busy with us. We learned to print early,
His interest was in music, though. There are some retro
grade quirks in his mind that prevented him from ever really
realizing his potential. I don't know what it was. He had

Antoninus: spark on the bandstand. He could dominate a band. I have
seen pictures of Toscanini before the orchestra and my
father had that, an unconscious projection. He did not
care about the great music, though; he was content to go
along with the band music, the marches, overtures, things
like that. His egoism was so great that I think that he
was content to be "that big frog in a little pool." He should
not have; he could have had the world of music at his feet.
He had the power. He had good melody, good tempo. He
composed music too, and his marches are all characterized
by a fine, full melodic strain.

Teiser: Did any of your brothers or sisters follow music?

Antoninus: No, he trained us all in it, but I think that his own per
sonality was so powerful that we were kind of shriveled by
it. We were too close to him. We could not get any
perspective from him. The same in printing. I left the
print shop as soon as I could get out of there because
that overpowering presence of the father was just too much
for me .

Teiser: How many children were there in your family?

Antoninus: Three only.

Teiser: Where are your brothers and sisters now?

Antoninus: My sister is in San Diego; she is married. My brother is also
married; he lives in Los Angeles.

Teiser: What does he do?

Antoninus: He works for Lockheed Aircraft in Burbank.

Education and Depression Years

Teiser: Did you go through the regular schools in Selma?
Antoninus: Yes, grammar school and high school. Graduated from high

school in 19'31. 1 lost a year somewhere around the middle,
the sixth grade, and my little brother caught up with me,
to my unending shame. (laughter).

Teiser: Did you first become interested in poetry in school?
Antoninus: Yes, in high school. But I really could not make it work.
Nothing opened up for me; there were three or four dif
ferent fields that remained potential to me: music, art,
writing of some kind. It was not until later when I
encountered the work of Jeffers that all that broke open.
Teiser: When did you encounter Jeffers1 work?

Antoninus: 1934, at Fresno State. I tried Fresno State the following
semester after I graduated from high school. I had a first
poem published there. The Fresno State Caravan published
my first poem. Then I left Fresno State; the Depression was
on. I was not cut out for academic work, but I did not do
anything then for two or three years until I went into the
C.C.C. in 1933.
Teiser: What do you mean by not doing anything?

Antoninus: I worked in the summer, but I did not have any work in the
winter .

Teiser: You worked in the fields in the summer?

Antoninus: No, I worked in the canneries. There was a cannery there in
the town. I probably could have found work. Everyone else-
did, but I was tied to the home in some way. I could not
extricate myself from the home. The Depression was as good
an excuse as any for me not to go out and face the world.
My father got more and more restive. I was my mother's
favorite and that was the problem between us. He kind of
adopted my little brother, who went out and trained himself
in aviation. My sister trained herself in stenography and
both of them got work right in the middle of the Depression.
Only me. (laughter). I was just shaping this great thing
that I had to give birth to, but it took a long, painful
process. No one believed in it, and I did not either.
Teiser: Was this your interest in poetry?

Antoninus: Well, writing. Poetry is the only thing that 1 really did.
I tried to write a few stories, but I could not. Suddenly,
when I went back to Fresno State in the fall of 1934 after
the year in the C.C.C, [Civilian Conservation Corps], I put
my hand on that book of Jeffers and everything opened up. It
was the intellectual awakening and the first religious con
version, all in one. My father was an agnostic, and I am
by temperament religious. To a religious man following
an agnostic belief, nothing could be more frustrating.

Antoninus: When Jeffers showed me God in the cosmos, it took and I
became a pantheist.

Taiser: Was it one book or his whole work that you were reading?

Antoninus: No, his whole works. I can't remember which one I rt-ad
first. I devoured them in one great rush.

Teiser: Did you meet him then?

Antoninus: I could not meet him. As I often say, "When you are the

only disciple of a man who hates disciples, you are the only
one in the world who can not meet him." I did have this big
projection on him. In a way I found a father. Looking
back I can see that is what happened: the alienation from
the father figure was healed in that finding. I came into my
own as a man. I left Fresno State then in order to become a
poet. I realized that I could not do it academically. My
mind did not have that shape. It would have helped me if I
could have. Many of the things that I now know, I could
have gotten much sooner and more quickly if I had stayed in
school, but my unconscious would not tolerate it. It just
would not; it would not work for me. I had to leave.

Teiser: Where did you go?

Antoninus: I went on the land then. I went back to Selma and began
definitely to move toward the land. That was my first
concrete goal — to get a vineyard, to get out on the land.
I had met Edwa Poulson in my last year in high school and
we fell in love then, my first love. That would be in 1930

Antoninus: that I met her. Then we were not married until 1938. She

had to go all the way through Fresno State, get her teaching
certificate, get out, and work for a year. Then with every
thing safe and secure and established, then we could get
married. As I look back on it now, it seems fantastic.

Teiser: People did that in the Depression though.

Antoninus: Do you think it was rather a more general thing?

Teiser: I think it was then more than now.

Antoninus: I am glad to have the reassurance (laughter). In a way I
kind of put the worst construction I can on things because
in some way—because now I can see things that I could not
see then. That is to say, it was part of a gestation process,
things slow, painfully slow, the long drawn out inability
to cope with life on an exterior level, although I kind of
had a consolidation of it on an interior level. Then there-
were all those painful inabilities to adapt and relate
exteriorly that were somehow instrumental too. The sentence-
is backward, but you know what I mean. Maybe it is just that
I am trying to make a virtue out of what is essentially a
defect. And I know that it is a defect. But some of us
are born with a certain shape to us so that if the other
side of ourselves can ever be met, it can only be met with
great travail. That is the way it was with me.
So I married then and we went out on the land and got our
selves a farm. We were beginning to put our roots down.

Antoninus: We had rented near it and we were going to build on it. A
little vineyard we had right outside of Selma there. She
was born in Selma and we both grew up there. That was part
of our own earth-fast sense of place. We were willing to
just grow up right in the same town when everyone else was
moving out as fast as they could get out.

There we were until the war came. Then I had to take my
stand. When I was drafted, I was sent up to Oregon to the
Objectors' Camp on the Oregon coast.
Teiser: When was that?

Conscientious Objectors' Camp

Antoninus: It was January of 1943 that I was drafted. She stayed home,
taught school and worked the vineyard. But then she moved
to San Francisco and it was during the war years that the
marriage disintegrated. It was during that period of
separation.

And yet to me it was a great opening up to be sent to that
camp. There for the first time I began to recover my true
social self. It had not quite happened in college, the
opening up and the engagement. That usually happens to a
young man when he first goes to college when suddenly he is
away from home, away from the matrix into which he was born,
when he is suddenly in contact with large ideas and stimulat
ing minds which open him up. To me that part of it happened

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Antoninus: in camp. I suppose I was not in college long enough. And
the long gestation meant I was emotionally retarded. But
when 1 got to camp I was thirty years old. 1 was ripe.

Teiser: Who were the people who were particularly stimulating to
you?

Antoninus: Harold Hackett, Glen Cof field, Earl Kosbad, those three men
were the most stimulating of the contacts that I made there.
Kosbad was an anarchist. He was a little older than I.
Hackett was younger. Coffield was about middle ground.
Coffield, of course, became fairly well known. Then Kermit
Sheets was there; then Kemper Nomland came over from
Cascade Locks. The camps were run by the Peace Churches
under the law at that time in order to avoid the difficul
ties of the C. 0. 's in World War I. When the draft was
first proposed, before America's entry into the war, the
Council of Churches went to the government and proposed
that if they could manage the camps, they would pay for the
upkeep of the men. The government wanted a work project
just as in the C.C.C. There would be this division and the
government accepted it. No one expected a total draft at
that time. They were thinking only of a year's service
or they probably would not have offered it. Then when the
war broke out, there was an enormous draft which had to be
taken in. It kind of inundated them.
We were all sent to these religious camps. I did not want

Bancroft Library

Antoninus: to go to a religious camp, but the government did not have
any non-religious sponsored camps until later that year.
By that time I was well engaged in the life there and
decided not to go to a government camp.

Under the church set-up, they began to sponsor what were
called special schools. Each camp could, if it wanted,
specialize in a certain subject. Then from all over the
whole system, men could be drawn there to participate in
that program. We set this one at Waldport up in Fine Arts.
In 1944 they began to come in. We sent out our brochure.
They came in until the government superintendent realized
that the type of men who were coming were not in any way
adapted to his work program. After that, he cut off
applications.

Teiser: So you also had a bunch of people who were not interested
in the arts at all?

Antoninus: Yes, and that happened at every one of the special interest
camps. It was dynamite because every such camp is In
evitably a frustrating situation. Put an in-group in it,
a "specialized school" no matter what type it was, "powie"
you would get a blow up. And we had ours! Did we have
it! All the innate American hostility to the artist
broke out, lashed out. And the artist deserves it too,
for some of us were impossible.
But here men really began to come in. Some of the exciting

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Antoninus: ones who arrived in that period were Clayton James, the
painter, who became my closest friend. Nomland and Bob
Harvey also came as painters. Broadus Erie, who later
became a well known musician, playing in the New Music
Quartet, and at one time, I think, was concert master for
the Tokyo Symphony. Other musicians were Robert Scott, a
lad named Downes and Bob Harvey, a painter cum musician.
Then the Hedgerow people, Dave Jackson and the theater
really got going at that time, joined by Martin Ponch.
The Interplayers really began here. Among the writers were
Coffield, Sheets, Bill Eshelman, Harold Hackett, Jim Harmon,
who later edited Ark III, and myself. Before that we had
gotten a press and had started the Untide Press. It was
here that I began to take up my first real printing.

Teiser: How did you happen to do that?

Antoninus: Well, the fact that we were doing so much publication by
mimeograph. When I got there, there was already a camp
montJiy called The Tide. Then a little radical group, Hackelt
and Coffield and Larry Simons, had started an underground
sheet called The Untide. "What is not Tide is Untide." This
was issued every week. Generally it agitated. It had an
anonymous character called "The Mole" who was the mouth
piece, for all the dissenting opinion.

Then when I began to publish, I had^all these poems that J
had written in Selma, these anti-war poems. I began to

Bancroft I;K,..

Antoninus: publish those every week as inserts in The Untide, under the
title of The War Elegies. Later we ran off most of these
in inserts, stapled them together, and put covers on them.
Thus we had our first publication, Ten War Elegies. Then
Chuck Davis brought a little press up from Laverne, Cal- ,
ifornia. He was the son of a Brethern Minister. He brought
one of these little Kelseys. We did Cof field's book,
The Horned Moon, next on that. Then Larry Simons discovered
in the village second hand at Waldport, this great old
platen press, a Gordon press. It was large enough to
print, tabloid size, a country newspaper; that was its
history. It was all worn out but we got it, paid $70 for
it, moved it out to the camp, and began to print.

Teiser: Had your experience in your father's print shop given you
any knowledge of how to operate a press like that?

Antoninus: I fed a lot of press for my father and had set a lot of
type.

Teiser: Same type of press?

Antoninus: Yes, but I really did not have any finesse with it. To be
a pressman is different than to be a feeder. I had fed but
I was not a pressman. At this time by a good stroke of
fortune there was a union printer, a union pressman, came
out from the Walhalla Camp in Michigan. They sent him out
to the coast. He was really sore about coming. His name
was Joe Kalal and he was a real good pressman. He was a

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Anioninus: real professional. Larry Simons prevailed upon him to get:
over his Crouch and help us. He did for awhile; by babying
him along, by being right there with him and doing all th<;
menial part myself. If there were any washing up or any
thing like that to do, I would do it.. 1 kept him placated
in his mood. He used to protest. '4e would say, "You had
better watch out, you are beginning to uplift rny morale
here!" He die not want his morale to be uplifted. He just
wanted to be utterly nasty.

The next one chat we printed was The Waldport Poems, the
poems that I had written at camp, vith linoleum blocks by
Clayton Jones. After that, he also saw through the press
The War Elegies, the first printed edition with blocks
and line cuts by Kemper Nomland, Jr. Both of these you can
see, by looking at those blocks, that the press work is
superior. You can see the mark of a professional because
those blocks were really hard to print. That old press did
not have a duct roller or anything on it to give the proper
distribution to the ink. He knew how to solve that in some
way. I was learning as fast as I could. One day Bill
Eshelman--Bill Eshelman is now one of the leading librarians
down at Los Angeles; he was, I forget where he is. He came
into the camp then in 1944. He was young. He made an
excellent typesetter, good press feeder.
He and Kalal did not cotton much to each other. One night

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Antoninus: we had one of those imperative camp meetings that I had to
go to because I was the director of the fine arts group.
As I say, the rest of the camp was always blowing up at
fine arts. Kalal wanted to print, so I got Bill Eshelman
over there to help him, to wash up and what not. hill cut
out on him. Joe had to wash up the press himself .so he
quit. After that he never printed again for us. I had to
go forward then and print. I had to print by myself, do all
the press work by myself. I printed the next item, The
Generation of Journey, by Jacob Sloan, another Civilian
Public Service man who lived in another camp.
I forgot to mention that my greatest friend in the order
came in through the fine arts group. That was Clayton
James who did the block cuts for The Waldport Poems. His
wife, who came out and married him there at Waldporl, was
Barbara Straker James. She did the line drawings for this
book, The Generation of Journey. I printed that; it was
hard to print, since I really did not have my touch as a
pressman. The work shows it. There is a distinct falling
off in the execution although I don't think there is in
design. In execution though there is a distinct falling
off in that book. Our typesetting was fairly good but our
press work was real down.

Teiser: Had you set the type?

Antoninus: No, those were more group projects. Two or three participated--

Bancnoft Library

Antoninus: Eshelman, sometimes Dupre, sometimes Then you see,

Nomland and Sheets--when I arrived at camp, Kermit Sheets
was already there. But they were "on loan" from Cascade
Locks. The Cascade Locks contingent was only "on loan"
to Waldport for the tree planting season. As soon as the
tree planting season was over in 1943, they went back.
Then when the fine arts came and was started, Sheets and
Nomland transferred permanently from Cascade; Locks over to
Waldport. Here we had some difficulties because we wanted
to keep the autonomy of our projects. They had founded
the Illiterati over at Cascade Locks. Kermit Sheets and
Kemper Nomland were the editors. Nomland was the son of
the architect and made some very radical designs.
We wanted to keep The Untide though. It was kind of our
own core and we had a little trouble there when they first
came over about establishing the various autonomies.
Another magazine came out called Compass with Martin Ponch.
That was the most famous of the C.P.S. magazines. He brought
that out when the Quaker system was there at camp. So
suddenly we found ourselves with all these publicational
outlets right there in camp and not really enough staff to
keep them all going.

Teiser: Editorial or production staff?

Antoninus: Both ways. It was not any problem for us at The Untide be
cause we were used to doing our own work. It was not really

Bancroft library

Antoninus: too much problem with the Illitcrati either, for Kemper had
fantastic versatility, although, I think, they somewhat
resented the fact that we just did not welcome Lhem into
The Untide staff. However, when Ponch came out with Compass,
it was a far bigger job editorially. He began to have that
printer in Portland but he had to draw on many more levels
of the camp in order to swing it than the fine arts itself..
But Adrian Wilson arrived, learned printing here, and began
to help Martin. We were really stretched tight for time and
space and every other way then. There was some heated
friction and some problems.

As far as the group itself was concerned though, we got through
that phase very well. The real difficulties were with the
rest of the camp, but between ourselves there really was not
much except what the women caused. I mean people would
tend to fall in love with each other. The whole idea of
anarchist living was kind of upsetting to a stable domestic
relationship. In the end that is where it all began to break
up, with the women, the wives, and the intra-family attractions
and difficulties, pains, and anguish.

For example, that is where Adrian Wilson met his wife Joyce.
She was married to Bob Harvey. He had come out. He was a
painter who had come out with Clayton James from Big Flats,
N. Y. She had followed him out and it was there that Adrian
met her and fell in love. Then the Harveys' marriage broke up.

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17
Antoninus: People started leaving the camp then; they just began to

walk out in droves. The laws were being relaxed. No, the
laws were not being relaxed but the judges were. They never
did like the whole set-up anyhow. In a legal v/ay they kind
of slipped over us. You see, the law was written in such
a way that the military would not have complete control of
Selective Service. Congress did not want the war lords to
have the direct tap into the manpower. That had always been
the great flaw in totalitarian systems, that they have been
able to tap into the manpower without any check or balance.
Congress was very careful to set up the draft system under
civilian auspices. However, as soon as Pearl Harbor, Roose
velt took out Dykstra and put in General Hershey, just by
administrative fiat. I mean over and above the law. Many
judges, the judges at least in Portland, did not say much in
the beginning, but by the end of the war when the whole system
was beginning to creak, victory was in sight, they began to
get men who had had a transfer that was signed by a military
man.

Generally when Dykstra went out and Hershey came in, so did
the whole Army. All the officials of the Selective Service
became officers. The signatures appearing on the transfers
then became military signatures. At the end a judge in Port
land said, "If you had transferred from another...." He held
that your original induction was legal because it had a

Ranemff ItbralY

Antoninus: civilian's name on it, hut your transfer which had an

officer's name on it that is the point that he stuck on.

On this he threw it out of court. This meant that everyone
who had a transfer in his possession with an officer's name
on it could walk out of those camps with impunity in the
Oregon area.

Teiser: Did you do that?

Antoninus: No, I did not know if the judge would die overnight and a

new judge would be brought in and give five years in prison.
With the end of the war in sight, I was not that adventurous.
When the others had these problems, of course, they did walk
out.

Pre-war Poetry and Publication

Teiser: At this camp then, your interest in poetry and printing came
together?

Antoninus: Yes. Well, I should not say that because when I was in
Selma, my last year there, I met a friend named Jim
Atkisson who lived in Sanger. He married one of the girls
there that I knew in college, Barbara McElroy. She had
been married to Bob Linn, the writer, and after she and
Bob were divorced, she married Jim Atkisson. He had been
a member of the Stanford group, Yvor Winters' Twelve Poets
of the Pacific. In fact he had a poem in it.
We got to know one another and he had a little Kelsey press

Bancroft library

Antoninus: there. We began to print poems of mine which later would

appear in either The War Elegies or The Re s idua 1 Year s , that
first mimeographed edition of The Residual Years which wo
did at Waldport. We did no more than a few proofs of these,
and ordinarily I would not mention them, but I have dis
covered that some of the proofs are in the library at Fresno
State. They are going to rise to plague bibliographers, so
I might as well get the record straight as to what that was.
I used to bicycle three or four times in that winter of 1942- -
until the end of the year 1942 and the beginning of January
tire rationing was on--I used to bicycle over to Sanger and
work there setting type and getting ready to make a run on
this little press. We must have done, I cannot remember how
many pages, not too many. The title page I understand is
among the proofs but I did not do that. Jim did that after
I was drafted. He was going to go ahead and finish the book,
but he got too much work to do on his farm. He owned a farm
east of Sanger. It was over 40 acres and it was all he could
do.

Teiser: Was his press just a hobby then?

Antoninus: Just a hobby.

Teiser: But you had had that single experience of putting your own
poems into print yourself?

Antoninus: Yes, of course it was never published, but there they were
before me anyhow.

Teiser: Was this a particularly striking thing to you? Or was it so
natural that you did not make much of it?

Antoninus: I knew that we were on the track of something; that something
significant would have emerged from it. It wasn't as if I
had been around the print shop so often that it was not an
archetypal experience for me.

Teiser: Had you had work published in periodicals before your camp
experience?

Antoninus: Oh, books too. I had my first book published in 1935. It

was called These Are the Ravens. That was a pamphlet that was
published in San Leandro by the Greater West Publishing Com
pany. This was a vanity press. They had a little magazine
called Westward which accepted one of my poems. Then I saw
an announcement in there announcing this Greater West Series
of Western Poets. I wrote and the publisher, Hans A.
Hoffman, said that he would welcome my manuscript. He gave
me the terms. He would print a thousand of them if I would
pay him $30. If you can believe it. He would keep 500;
I would get 500. They were to sell for ten cents apiece.
I got all the money of those I sold of my five hundred; those
he sold I got two cents on. He never sold any, maybe two
or three.

Teiser: What happened to yours?

Antoninus: They are now selling for $30 apiece.

Teiser: My word! Did you sell all of yours originally?
Antoninus: No, I used them for lighting stove wood one winter. Nothing

moved. I gave them away to a few friends but they immediately
went out of sight. I doubt that it was reviewed, or not more
than one or two. Then later on when 1 was writing in earnest,
I mean when I was well launched in my writing, I met Larry
Powell in 1937. 1 had a friend who worked in the library at
Fresno State. Her name was Fay Porter. She introduced rne to
Larry Powell. We had a great mutual interest in Jeffers so
she introduced us. He had done the book of Jeffers, the first
extended treatment of Jeffers1 work. She knew my obsession
with Jeffers so she got us together.

I wrote to Powell and later we met. It was he who introduced
me to Ward Ritchie in Los Angeles. Ward undertook to print
my second book for me, San Joaquin. Here once again, I paid
him $125, but this was hard bound. The price is almost as
fantastic now as the other.
Teiser: I have a copy of it.
Antoninus: If you ever want to sell it, I know people who would give a

good deal for it. It's fantastically rare. It was a beautiful
little book, a very sweet little book. It's dark brown with
a white spine. It is soft Irak paper.

Teiser: Adrian Wilson said that this spoiled you for ordinary printing.
Antoninus: (laughter) That is a good way to put it.
Teiser: Then did you have a third book which you paid for yourself?

Antoninus: Yes. The Decker Press in Illinois published it in 1942,
in the fall. It was called The Masculine Dead. It was
published before I was drafted. There were 200 printed.
I paid him $80. Fantastic prices! Hard bound. It was a
terrible job. He was trying to publish too much and his
sister was setting type. It was loaded with typographical
errors. All these poems, these three books are now being
brought out again by Oyez in Berkeley. For the first time,
the early poems are going to be issued complete.

War-Time and Post-War Books

Antoninus: It is a great joy to me to see them all collected. They

were only selected (not collected) for The Residual Years,
the New Directions book in 1948. James Laughlin did not
want to collect the poems so I gave the task to Kenneth
Rexroth, or if you want to say the honor, but more the
task, of selecting from those. He combed the Jeffers
influence out. He does not like Jeffers. Also his
literary politician's sense told him that in 1948 that was
about the worst possible time to arrive on the scene with
a Jeffers book. He realized that the real comer was going
to be D. H. Lawrence. Therefore, he emphasized the
Lawrencian side of the writing.

Teiser: You had been considerably influenced by Lawrence?

Antoninus: Yes; so he emphasized this side of myself. The blurb carried

Antoninus: the Lawrencian references and none of the Jeffers. I was
so amused because when the book was reviewed, not one re
view mentioned the influence of Jeffers, not one; they all
fell for this Lawrencian line. Lawrence did not influence
me much as a poet. His attitude did, but my real master
was Jeffers. Yet, it just shows you how much the reviewers
tend to follow what is fed them. Not one recognized the
influence of Jeffers. Now when they say to me about my
work (after I put it on the jacket), that the influence of
Jeffers is obvious, I just laugh. I know that if I had not
said it, they would not know that it was there.

Teiser: Your period during World War II in camp then saw what--
three more books published?

Antoninus: Yes, it saw The War Elegies bringing together just the same
poems. Ten War Elegies or just War Elegies, it is the same.
One is mimeographed and one is printed. Then there was the
Waldport Poems. Then working by myself as an off-hours pro
ject for Untide, I printed the Poems MCMXLII and at the same
time issued the first version of the book called The Residual
Years, which was not a collected work. It was just a pick-up,
some poems that had not been included in either The War Elegies
or the other one. All these books I had written at Selma
except for the Waldport Poems. Most of the work that was
brought into print at Waldport was done at Selma. In the
later Residual Years that is constituted by the middle

Antoninus: section of the book. I had then, how many titles? There-
was: Ten War Elegies, War Elegies, the Waldport Poems,
Poems MCMXLII , and The Residual Years. Five titles came
out under my name then.

Then I left camp and we went to Cascade Locks. We also
printed up there. Got side-tracked on Patchen's book,
An Astonished Eye Looks Out of the Air. There is a story
in itself. It is the anti-war poems of Kenneth Patchen. The
war was closing and he wanted these anti-war poems to be
published during war-time. He wanted us to do them because
he was struck by Kemper Nomland ' s designs. It was too big
of a book for us, I felt. I did not want to do them, but
Dupre--Vladimir Dupre, he was the secretary of the press-
he got Eshelman to side with him. I finally agreed to it.
It was a mistake because it was too big a book. It turned
out to be too ambitious. Patchen is difficult to work with.
He puts a lot of pressure on you. Robert Duncan says that
Kenneth Patchen is the poet that little presses fold up on.
(laughter) .

Final Months At Conscientious Objectors' Camps
Teiser: This was at Cascade Locks, where there was also a conscientious

objectors' camp?
Antoninus: This [the Patchen book] began at Waldport. Then that carnp

closed in December, the last day of December, 1945. The war

Antoninus: was over. They did not release us though. They could have
closed it out in a week or two, their whole system. But
the reason they were not releasing us was because of
political objection. They felt that the conscientious ob
jectors would go out and get all the jobs. They released
us at the same ratio that they had inducted the total
servicemen. Since there were about 1000 C.O.'s to a million
G.Ic's, it meant that we had to wait for a million men to be
released before the 1000 C.O.'s could be. We were still there
then after the close of the war.

Teiser: At Cascade Locks?

Antoninus: Yes, in the middle of it, it kind of broke. The war was over
in the middle of 1945. By the end of that year the camps
were gradually being closed down, so they had to consolidate.
Instead of releasing us, they had to make us all pick up and
move to another camp. They sent us then to Cascade Locks.
In the spring of 1946 that camp was closed. By rights, my
release should have come through by May of 1946, but a big
strike wave began to go through the camps and I thought my
release was already in the mail. This was at the end of
April or maybe the first few days of May. I kind of calculated.
I believed in the strike wave and the demonstration, but once
again my cautious Virgoian nature would not let me act at
that kind of a risk. Since I was the leader of the whole
fine arts wing, and of that whole radical wing, every thing

Antoninus: kind of hinged on me or I never would have done it. Even

then I was not going to do it. I had had it; I was fed up;

my marriage was on the rocks. I just wanted to get out of

there and get back to California. I had lived radicalism

to the hilt. All the idealism was gone out of me. I just

wanted to withdraw. Yet, that night before that gigantic

strike was supposed to be timed all over the camps, I was

sitting up late that night and Broadus Erie's wife, Hilde-

garde, God bless her — she was a pianist, wonderful—but she

got to talking to me. I admitted that I had, that I felt

in my hands the power to strike Cascade Locks if I wanted to.

She said, "Why don't you do it?"

I said, "I don't want to. I am not impelled."

She said, "Well, why?"

I said, "I would get my head lopped off."

She said, "But your release is already in the mail. You can

expect it in a day or two. It must have been in the mail

from Washington at the first of the month."

I said, "That is true."

She said, "Then what possible grounds could you have for not

doing it?"

I said, 'Veil "

Then there was another guy, a real man, he was a religious
man. He was going ahead on the strike anyhow. He was one of
these real solid, real peace corps guys. He grew tap in the

27
Antoninus: real superb Protestant spirit that when he sees a thing

that has to be done, he is committed in conscience to do it.
It does not really matter if anyone else goes along or not.
He does what he has to do. He was all set to go out and
strike even though no one else in the whole camp was.
Dansizen his name was. I just saw him, and he had begun to
write his posters out, thinking that he was going on strike
the next day to join in with the great synchronized strike-
all up and down the coast.

Here I was between this woman and him sitting there. I was
night watchman, so I had a long ordeal that night. Some
where around daybreak, I had been converted. I got up and
began lettering the signs. As soon as it was time to ring
the rising bell, I went through the dorms hollering, "Strike!"
They all came out behind me. The whole core, the hard core,
that had moved over from Waldport, rose up in strike.
That noon the Portland papers carried headlines: "Conscien
tious Objectors Strike at Cascade Locks." This I never ex
pected. A poor Jehovah's Witness who was going up to the
court that morning to be tried--he was stubborn and
rebellious. When those headlines hit the street, the judge
gave this chap a very long term. That made the papers too.
I saw this poor Jehovah's Witness caught by my action. Here
I had done this thing. I had precipitated this whole thing
almost alone.

Antoninus: Well, my release had not been mailed; my calculation was
wrong. The first thing the government did, the way they
struck back, was to revoke or to close the releases of those
involved. They did not have any way to strike at us, the
government didn't, because their legal position had become
so shaky. The "slow-downers" had perfected the technique
against the government of working so slowly that nothing
could be accomplished and yet they were not disobeying an
order. They had funneled all those to a camp up here in
California called Minersville. Actually, I ended up there;
that is where I was released from.

Teiser: Where was Minersville?

Antoninus: It was way up here in the Trinity Alps country. Anyhow, my
release got plucked out of the hopper.

Teiser: When did you then get released?

Antoninus: Three months later. Three months it took me. That was

because after we went to Minersville, I was working then.
Everyone there was on slow-down, or most of them. Anyone
who worked at all got an excellent report record. As soon
as the government saw that I was back working....

Teiser: You worked? You were not one of the slow-downers?

Antoninus: Not after I got to Minersville. I did not join the slow-
downers, no. I just wanted to get out of there.

Teiser: So then you came out in the autumn of 1946?

Antoninus: July 23, 1946.

Tciser: You came directly to the Bay Area then?

Antoninus: Yes, down here. I had friends in Berkeley. I remember 1 had
grown a beard at Miner svi lie. I came down beard and all. It
was there that I met Mary Fabilli. She was a friend of Robert
Duncan. I had know of her for years. When I first met
Robert Duncan about 1941 and had come up to San Francisco, In-
had shown me some of her art work. She was in Mexico at that
time though, so I did not meet her- On one of my furloughs
from camp, I had come down to San Francisco and had found
this giant hand press in Ottsman's Printers1 Supply shop over
in San Francisco, and I had bought it from him. I think it
cost $175; I sold my insurance policy to get it.
Teiser: You were determined by then to print?

Antoninus: Yes, we were all trying to figure out what we were going to
do in the post-war world. Some of them wanted to go and
keep the Untide going as a group. I did not want to;
probably should have. They depended on me in many ways.
They formed a kind of psychological polarity.
The marriage problem was so strong though. I was so thrown
by the breakdown in the marriage that unless I could get
some kind of center or relationship, an emotional polarity
of some kind in a deep personal way, I could not feel oriented
in a way. I did not know though which way my mind was going
to go because I did not know how this problem was going to be
solved. I just did not want to make any commitments of a

Antoninus: definite group kind of that nature. I did not mind working
with these people as long as I had to work with them in
camp, but I was not so sure of trying to set up a life with
them in the open society. I had seen so many confusions
and tensions growing. Although I was committed with them in
terms of the work itself, still in terms of the life to be
lived, its domestic and its emotional component, this I was
far less convinced of. We were all trying to come up with
one scheme or another. Actually, of the whole group there
was only Clayton James and his wife that I had a profound
enough relationship to that I could have sustained u relation
in the open world with them. They went north though. They
went up to the Puget Sound area; they were just attracted.

Morris Graves

Antoninus: You see Morris Graves had come down in the summer of 1944.

Teiser: To your Camp?

Antoninus: He was visiting. What had happened, when Clayton James came
out in 1944, Graves had had his big show in New York, and
Clayton and Barbara had both seen it. When they were out,
they were talking of Graves as being the foremost interesting
painter then in their ken. When we talked of the fine arts,
they said that we ought to get a man like that to come.
Well, now it kind of ties together.
Then another friend of mine, Kenneth Carothers, who was one

Antoninus: of my friends who had grown up in Selma. We got to be very
close there in the last months.

Teiser: In the last months in camp?

Antoninus: In the last months in Selma in 1942. He was drafted in 1942
and sent over to camp at Camp Roberta. He was a clerk there.
Graves had been inducted but he had been an early conscientious
objector. He had gone to the induction center and refused
to take the oath. They had taken him into the Army and put
him in the stockade. Later that policy was abolished. If
you did not take the oath, you were immediately sent back to
the civil authorities, which was proper. At that date, the
fact that you arrived there, they just put him in the hands
of the military, so he had this big ordeal to go through in
the stockade in the Army. Finally, they concocted a

psychiatric release of some kind and got him out. It was not
without a great deal of travail for him though. My friend
Carothers had met him there and it was through him that I
finally got in contact with Morris Graves. At least it was
through him that I knew how to reach him.

So Morris came down to Oregon from Puget Sound. He said he
was coming but he did not tell us when. One day he slipped
into the region without telling us; he was always one to use
indirect approaches. He scouted the place out, looked over
us from afar, then went down on the beach, found a piece of
unused property down there, got some shingles from a lumber

Antoninus: camp and began to build himself a lean-to down there on the

beach right near us. Then after he was fairly well encamped,
he introduced himself and gave us a show of the paintings that
he had just done. He stayed there for maybe a month or six
weeks. He did some wonderful paintings there on the beach.
Some of them are reproduced in that book that the University
of California Press did on him. The scoter in the various
phases of disintegration, as if it were passing into another
incarnation, was done there. I forget the name of it, that
dying scoter, that dying bird.

Then some of those great menacing wave paintings that he did
about that time were done following an incident. I might as
well relate that. He and Clayton James had gone down to the
beach one afternoon and had taken inner tubes and had gone
out through the surf. They got caught in a pocket out
there so that they could not get either out far or come back
in. The waves just began to pound on them and they thought
they were going to drown. They could not get out; the waves
would come over them, and before they could get their breath
another wave would come on top of the. Finally, they were cast
up about three-quarters of a mile down from where they had gone
into the water. They were very shaken. I happened to drop
down on the beach that afternoon, and they were really shaken.
Some of those paintings came out of that experience of Morris
Graves. He also painted a couple of paintings to some lines

Antoninus: of my poems. In the Masculine Dead there is a line called

"Under the grinding rivers of earth..." He did two paintings
of a fish in various stages of disintegration in the water,
skeletal fish to that line. He did those paintings there.
He did some fine work in that short period of days.

Teiser: What was the date of that?

Antoninus: The summer of 1944. Then he went back to... no I think that
was 1945 not 1944, although I cannot believe it. I remember
one fantastic incident that occurred when James and I were
down at Graves' camp in the evening; the long summer-time
Oregon evenings, beautiful to just sit around the camp fire
at his lean-to there and talk together. We were just con
versing when suddenly a jeep pulled up. Ours was the only
camp in the west patrolled by the military, because we were
on the shoreline, you see. They were always kind of hounding
us one way or the other. If they would catch us out on the
road walking back from town, they would haul us clear back
to town to question us, then let us go so that we would have
to walk the same four miles back again (laughter). That is
the sort of thing they would do. They knew us, but every
time they saw us they would pick us up and haul us all the
way back in there.

Suddenly this jeep pulled up and this officer got out. There
were two or three dog-faced G. I.'s with him and they had, I
can never forget the faces of those G.I.'s, they were just

Antoninus: kids but anything having to do with that--you know, we were
just "kooks." They just looked at us, you know, their first
real introduction to "kooks." They were mid-west farm boys,
(laughter)

They got out of the jeep looking at us with this look of
"I am looking at kooks." Their mouths were draped open;
their eyes had that kind of fixed look. The officer snapped,
"Who is in charge here?" Graves, with his Oriental courtesy,
has a masterful presence. He is a very complicated individual,
but he has a masterful presence when he wants to, a master
showman! He is a performer of himself when he has to be, when
he is under stress or pressure. He rose up. We had been
drinking tea in these little Oriental cups that he brought.
He rose up with great Oriental dignity and said, "I am."
The officer snapped back, "let me see your papers."
"Yes, Sir. Would you care for some tea?"

"Not at all. No I don't. No, thank you."

"This is my friend William Everson and my friend Clayton James.
Are you sure that you would not join us for a cup of tea?"

"No, let me see your papers!"

"Yes, Sir." He handed him his discharge papers which said
plainly, "Psychiatric Release."

The officer looked it over, turned to Jumeb and me, and said,
"Are you from the camp here?" "Yes."
Clayton by that time had a great beard. My hair was down to

Antoninus: my shoulders. I did not have my beard then, but I had let my
hair grow longer. We are used to long hair now since the
beat days, but then it was not common. There was this
strained moment of mutual appraisal, and mutual estimation,
utter sparks in the air. They snapped back into the jeep;
the G.I.'s piled in the back behind the officer and off they
rode down the trail, leaving dust behind them. Then Graves
just said, "Whew!" He said, "Boy after those months in the

stockade " Suddenly to have thrown at him from the blue

in that moment of serenity was just like a whole period of
his life coming back and hitting him between the eyes. We
never forgot those moments. Those were great, great moments.

(Second Int'tvifw, \)< < ember 21, 1965]

A -< •;.) Post -War Renaissance

Tc- scr: You cairn- to the San Francisco Bay Area then to establish

a press?
An<:oninus: Yes, the others had moved the Unf id< Press down to Los

Angeles. In a way, I could have centered up that whole move
ment. I think they were looking toward me to somehow taker
the lead and start getting some kind of establishment, sorie
kind of contin ity in the. communal life that we had begun
there. There were hopes for the future, but my domestic
problems were so great. How shall I say it? I had some
instinct that I was not ready -^et for communal living, for
entering an order. I was not ready v«?t-. for the communal
life; my metaphysics were the metaphysics of isolation and
of independence. I was able to work in a camp like that
under forced circumstances, but as soon as the force was
taken away, my instinct was for solitude or isolation.
Teiser: I should think that it might have been a reaction to the

camp living.

Antoninus: Probably, but I did not know how to do it myself. My friends
Hamilton and Mary Tyler had a farm in Sebastopol. When I got
my hand press and got it out of Ottsman's shop and loaded it
on to a trailer, I took it up to this farm called Treesbank
up on the ridge above Sebastopol. Here there was an apple

Antoninus: orchard, beautiful redwoods, the Sonoma hills. It was my
first and only prolonged contact with them, but 1 realized
that it would be an idyllic landscape. It was so perfect,
so hauntingly beautiful. I don't know if I have ever seen
anything so lovely. It remains in my mind in a marvelous
way. I got some of that in my later poems, the marvelous
way that landscape is.

There was an old apple dryer there on the place and we moved
the press into that. I began to make my living quarters
there. The harvest season was on, and we had a lot of apple
picking to do. There was not very much money; they were
broke. They had some cows and a few chickens. They had
hoped to score that year in the apple market with the
apple crop. Something happened and the New York market was
literally wiped out so they did not get any money from the
apples. Nevertheless, we did keep on trying to harvest them.

Teiser: Where had you met the Tylers?

Antoninus: I had met Hamilton Tyler before the war. He had lived in
Fresno. He came to my farm outside of Selma. He met his
wife up here at Cal. I only met her maybe once or twice
before the war. After they left the Bay Area, they went to
Lincoln in the foothills of the Sierra. That was their first
farm, and I went there on furlough. Then he moved to Guerne-
ville, Pond Farm, which later became known as an artists'
establishment. From there he got the farm at Treesbank.

Antoninus: When I got out, they were really ready for me:. Robert Duncan
had spent about three months there before. We were all
friends together.

Teiser: When had you met Duncan?

Antoninus: I had met him in about 1941, I think, when he was editing a
magazine called Experimental Review back in Woodstock, New
York. That was an adjunct of another magazine called The-
Phoenix which a man named Cooney, a Lawrencian, a Lawrence
fan, was editing. Cooney had written to me. I don't know
whether I had gotten the contact or whether he had written
to me. Anyhow he published a poem of mine and I had sub
mitted another. Duncan saw that poem and wanted to use it in
his magazine. We began to correspond. When he came back
to the coast, his step-mother was living in Bakersfield.
That brought him down into the valley and he stopped by one
time. That is when I first saw him. He was also a friend
of Mary Fabilli's, whom I later married. There were all
these cross ties of associations. He was part of that group
which I entered when I got out of camp.

That had been essentially a Berkeley group. With Rexroth in
San Francisco, it had broadened to take in that. After
Rexroth had become disillusioned with the revolutionary
movement, the proletarian movement, he began to broaden his
base. That is the way I look at it now anyway. I might be
wrong because I was not there. My feeling is that he began

Antoninus: to be a patriarch in a different sense. San Francisco at
that time was ripe for his presence.

Teiser: Why was it?

Antoninus: Because the experimental movement had begun to take both in
the arts and in literature here. He had a background as an
objectivist, and his background as an experimentalist let him
combine many things within himself. For instance, he was
reading people like Buber and religious existentialists of
that type long before the general culture was very much aware
of them. I don't mean the general culture, but at least the
intellectual culture. The literary culture had been dominated
by Marxism for so long. Rexroth's fairly early break with
Marxism and his interest in metaphysical ideas led him to
these trends long before anyone else around that I was aware
of. It made him extremely stimulating from that point of
view. He had a radical background; he was avante garde in
literature; and he was very "hip" in new religious trends.
All this synthesis of associations and ideas was very exciting
because after the war, most of us were extremely disillusioned.
We were looking for something entirely new. He was able to
focus on that and give it direction. For example, a poet
like Philip Lamantia who had been captured by the surrealists
at the age of 16 and taken back to New York and made an
editor of View magazine, the surrealist magazine, he was
something of a "cause celebre" back there among the. After

Antoninus: whatever personal reasons caused the stop of that, he came
back west. He found a father in Rexroth.

Rexroth and Anarcho-Pacif ism
Antoninus: Among these people who were disaf f i liated with political

interests, there was a gravitation toward Rexroth and anarch
ism. He provided that polarity. He tried to found the heat
Generation at that particular time. He tried very hard to
start something that would have an echo; that would have a
resonance back on the total intellectual climate of the
nation. He polarized from San Francisco to start a new
movement. He came very close, but it was a little premature.
The Cold War was just beginning. The economy was not able
to expand rapidly into the kind of thing that was needed.
The rest of the nation, I guess, was not really ready. It
took Korea and the impasse following Korea to produce the
mental climate which would produce the Beat Gent-ration. It
took the long Eisenhower, what you might call establishment,
with its oppressive, static character (the second Eisenhower
administration) that took the need of revolt, not only among
the youth but also among the mass media. They began search
ing for signs, in terms of the title of Life' s main article
on the Beat Generation. They were searching for "the only
rebellion around." They were searching for something to
break that impasse. They fostered the Beat Generation.

Teiser: You used the word anarchist in relation to Rexroth. This is
not its historical meaning, is it? Rexroth1 s type of
anarchism was different?

Antoninus: Some would call it "anarcho-pacif ism. " See, anarchism is

chiefly associated with violent overthrow of the government,
but specifically, that is more of a journalistic application
of it. Philosophically, it is not. That is to say, it speaks
of a condition, not of an overthrow. Therefore, "anarcho-
pacifism" as we call it meant the establishment of an anar
chist society not by overthrow of the present government but
by a withdrawal, by saying you are no longer needed by the
established government.

Teiser: This was quite different from the World War I brand then?

Antoninus: Even back then there had been a struggle within the anarchist
movement itself for pacifism as opposed to violent means for
securing it.

Teiser: Was it Rexroth who brought back the anarchist concept himself
or did he take part in a larger movement at that time?

Antoninus: In San Francisco there remained an old line of anarchists, a
substratum especially among the Italians. There were
hangovers from the World War I period. These were still
pretty much dedicated to overthrow.

Teiser: Who were they?

Antoninus: I don't remember their names. We mingled with them a little.
AS soon as they got wind of this thing that Rexroth was

Antoninus: starting, they began to make overtures to capture what they
thought was the youth. Now they were fairly strong among a
certain substratum of the Italians in San Francisco. I
attended a couple of their meetings which were wonderful
family affairs. There was great gaiety and communal dancing
which was wonderful, rather intoxicating.
Teiser: When was this?
Antoninus: This would be 1947.
Teiser: Where were the meetings held?
Antoninus: Well, there was a hall there. I read there once. It was

off toward where St. Dominic's is now. I can't remember the
name. Anyhow, these movements never really made it. This
was especially true because they were extremely hostile to
religion. This new anarchism was both religiously oriented
and pacificatory. The old anarchism was anti-clerical, ath
eistic, and militant. The two factors widely separated them.
There was not too much real communication.
Teiser: This was the same group of anarchists that Adrian Wilson

referred to when he said that he used the anarchists' press?
Antoninus: Yes, this Rexroth group of anarchists. Yes, they printed
The Ark on it. I participated in this group, but I was so
tired of group activity after those years in the camp that
I just wanted to get away. I just drew off. iVhen I drew off,
I drew off as much to get out of the city. You would think
that I had had my belly full of nature, but even so I was
always close to nature and I needed it. I began going up to

Antoninus: Treesbank very fio;x j Hly Lo establish my press and to set up
a way of lif<-. However, the situation was not right even
there, even with the Tylers; J was a "stranger" among them.
The financial time was not right. Th< re was not enough money
for us all to live properly or to have proper distinction
Between us. This problem was always there. Also, I was
under a depressed spirit due to the problem of rny marriage.
That had not been settled yet. I can look back and see now
that this pul ! on my spirit was not due to last too long.
This pull on my spirit would have to lift.

It was then that 1 met Mary Fabilli. I had met her before,
but I really met her then. I remember one night, it must
have been October or early November in 1946 because Philip
Lamantia's book Erotic Poems had just been brought out by
Berne Porter. Kenneth had a coming out party for him at his
house. I came down from Treesbank to participate in that.
It was then that I fell in love with Mary Fabilli.

Berkeley and Printing

Antoninus: When I would come to town, I would stay with the Watkins over
in Berkeley. They were old friends from Selma. I remember
that for a period of some weeks I did not go back to Trees-
bank. I had fallen in love with Mary Fabilli and I stayed to
do my courting. Then I did go up and wrote a series of poems
up there in December, I guess it was, to Mary. Then I just

Antoninus: pulled my stakes out of there and came down to Berkeley.

Teiser: Had you established your press then under the name Equinox
Press?

Antoninus: I had not figured it out yet.

Teiser: Had you done any printing?

Antoninus: No, I had just gotten the press up and had hardly pulled a

proof. I did not even have my type. The tympan and frisket
problem of the hand press had to be solved. We had gotten
the dimensions on the press and had taken those dimensions
up to Cascade Locks, and in the blacksmith's shop up there
I had the blacksmith make those tympan and friskets for me.
They had not yet been put on the press, though, so I really
could not do any printing then. I was pretty close to
getting it lined up though. Then in the spring of 1947,
Dick Brown, another C. 0., who had been in camp with me,
helped me to move the press down to Ashby Avenue at Mary's
place. It was there that we moved the press in and set up
shop. Then is when I named it the Equinox Press. I got the
tympan and frisket fixed on there.

In the meantime what happened was that I had to get to work,
so I first worked at the Co-op as a laborer unloading their
box cars and things like that. Then, as a stroke of luck,
I got a job as a janitor at U. C. This did not pay very well,
but it was on campus and at least had the mental climate. I
worked pretty hard there. I was working in the library as a

Antoninus: janitor, in the U. C. library. I worked there for two or
three months. Then I got another job and shifted over to
the U. C. Press as a janitor. That turned out to be a gold
mine for me because just when I was breaking into printing
on my own, it put me right in the center so that I could
watch all those printers and perfect the knowledge that 1
had gained both in my father's shop and at the- Untide Press.
Being a janitor, when I got caught up in my work, 1 could go
up there and study all those specimens and really shape up
and perfect my taste, which is the most important part of a
printer. If you don't get that job done, no matter how good
your craftsmanship becomes, your work will not survive. It
takes the aesthetic dimension to make it survive, so it was
really a stroke of incredible luck as I look back and see
it—providence I would say now-- that I was kind of drawn to
that place where I could really work along at my own level but
not really be involved. I was close enough to it and yet had
enough separation from it that I was not coerced by productive
norms. I could contemplate day after day. I could move in
the atmosphere of printing without being under the pressure
of its norms. That was exactly what I needed for my tempera
ment at that time.

Teiser: You were working in the press when it was operating?

Antoninus: Yes, the night shift would be running. The night shift would
run from four o'clock until midnight. My janitor shift was
the same time.

Teiser: Sam Farquhar had died by then?

Antoninus: No, he was still alive.

Tciser: Did you know him at all?

Antoninus: (laughter) The funny part of it was when I got the- Guggen
heim Award. They immediately wanted to go down to the U. C.
Press. The Life man got on the phone and called. I had
never met Sam Farquhar; I had cleaned his office every night
for two years, but I would say hello distantly to him if we
would happen to meet. As soon as Life magazine got on the
phone, "Yes, yes, yes." He was always a great one for any
publicity to the press. First thing you know, 1 was standing
down there before the cameras buddy-buddy with him. I was
so amused by that .

Teiser: Did you learn from anyone there at the press?

Antoninus: Oh, yes. Binders especially. Part of my job was to clean
the bindery up on the top floor. Joe Baxley, I remember;
he worked the linotype night shift. Then there was a wonder
ful craftsman there whose name I forget. The greatest of all
was an old binder who worked up in the finishing department,
Vic George. We got a wonderful friendship going. He taught
me many things about binding. Mostly though it was my
position of vantage where I could stand and watch those things
done. Otherwise, as far as the hand press itself goes, I had
to get it all out of books.
Now, I want to clarify one thing historically. When 1 had

Antoninus: first gotten out of the camp, 1 went to Wilder Bent ley. He-
was not printing then but he talked to me about it. About
this same time, Jim Hart had gotten back from the war. He-
wanted to do something on his press. It was that Ode to
the Virginian Voyage, that Drayton thing. So Wilder
Bentley got us together in order to see how we would do.
Jim Hart was a little afraid of me because I was a beatnik.
My hair was down to my shoulders, I had a great big Latin
Quarter style hat. He was a little bit spookey around me
because he is an Appollonian and I am a Dionysian. fiut
after awhile we got to working together.

That summer Wilder Bentley had to take a job. Usually he
taught at Stockton. The College of the Pacific was where
he had been teaching, but that summer he had to work in a
cannery. He was very tired and could not devote too much
time to us. He kind of threw us overboard once he intro
duced us. I went over to Jim Hart's place. This would be
in the summer of 1946 before I had gone to Treesbank. It
was here that we printed Drayton 's Ode to the Virginian
Voyage that we worked on. Neither of us knew anything about
hand press printing. We were struggling on it together.

Teiser: You and Hart?

Antoninus: Yes, we got through it and he gave it out as a Christmas
offering.

Teiser: He had done, by then, more printing than you had though?

48
Antoninus: No, I had done far more printing than he had done, but not on

a hand press. It was a problem of getting over the hand press.
Wilder did not really have a chance to show me much. Some
people say that Wilder Bentley taught me to hand print; that
just is not true. He introduced me to the physical dimensions
of the hand press. He shoved me hew it was set up and how it

had to work. He gave me a little demonstration of what the
mechanism looked like and how it operated. Also, the day we
were over at Hart's trying to print, we did not get started
because he said that Jim Hart had set the type all wrong, so
we spent the day resetting that type. That, you know, is what
knocked that out. Jim Hart and I, the only day that he had
to give to us, hardly got to hand printing at all. Then after
that, we just had to go by what he could remember of what
Wilder had shown him before the war. We were babes in the
woods together. That is all the handpress printing instruction
actually that I had; the rest of it I had to get from books,
I actually could have gotten more help from Wilder if I had
asked. However, I have a kind of stand-offishness or pride
that makes it difficult for me to ask favors. If people come
and help me, I am overjoyed, but I can not step out of myself
and ask. This is why I was so fortunate that I found myself
working in the U. C. Press when I did. I would not have been
able to master the preparation.

Anyhow, then I began to get books out of the U. C. library on
hand press printing. I read every one that I could get hold of.

Antoninus: I went into every detail of it. I learned almost every detail
of the whole art from books: paper making, type founding, ink
making, how to operate the press. I read all the manuals in
order to get the history of them all, in order to get oriented.
At this point I was obsessed. I devoured them like a man
obsessed .
Teiser: Is this your habit, to get interested in one subject and read

everything about it?

uitoninus: Yes, I get obsessed with the subject and come out the other end.
Then it is behind me. My printing is now something of the past.
I don't print anymore. Anyway, that is the way it was with
hand press printing.

First I printed the Prospectus. Now the Prospectus is very
important because I learned to print on the hand press on that.
Also what I learned to do was to damp paper, which was the
hardest part. If I had seen someone do that, that would have
saved me incredible hours. Not having seen it though, I could
only experiment with it. I would get it too wet, or Loo dry,
or uneven, and not know how. Then I would put weights on it
and wrinkle the paper, or it would get moldy. It was not
until I was way up in the order working on the Psalter that I
really perfected the practice of damping paper so that I knew
what it was supposed to be, what was ideal. By that time I had
printed two books and I knew what properly damped paper was.
Before that I did not know what it was. I had to discover what
it was. I was lucky to get through my first two books as well

50
Antoninus: as I did. At that time I was overly a perfectionist. I did

not understand that part of myself then. I had always thought
that 1 was a kind of Dionysian character, you know, perfection
ism had no place. I know now that I am a Virgo and that Virgos
are perfectionists by nature. Because I was dealing on these
other more charismatic subjects like poetry, that perfection
did not come in. You would think that I would have been an
Yvor Winters metrical man with every syllable in its place,
and if you drop one it is a mortal sin approach, you know,
that he has to the art of poetry. On the other hand, I was
Jeffersian and Lawrencian when it came to poetry. This is why
I could never understand myself as a Virgoian.
When I got to printing though, suddenly, I was over on my
perfectionist side. I had abandoned the clam action press at
Waldport. It could not print well enough for me. It was not
total enough; it was not maximum; it was not perfection. When
I began to perfect the work of the hand press, the great love
that I had for it was that it was capable of absolute per
fection in printing. I exacted perfection of it; I struggled
with it and wrestled with it until I exacted perfection of it.
This was not only in terms of production but also in terms of
design.

Influence of Mary Fabilli and Kenneth Rexroth

Antoninus: I was carrying two things along: poetry and printing. Without
Mary Fabilli, I would never have applied for the Guggenheim
award because of my anarchist contempt for foundation money,
"tainted money" as they used to call it. Mary Fabilli changed
me in many ways; she revived my spirit; she took the pall, the
negation and gloom off of me. The war had starved me in some
way. I was disillusioned with America because of the things
that I had to suffer. We were not paid there, you know, our
money was denied us by the government. We put in those three
and one half years of labor without any recompense. It left a
kind of scar, the scar that injustice leaves. Then there was
the break-up of my marriage.

Mary took all that away from me. She lifted that off of me
and I found my spirit again. I rejoiced once again in my life.
I came out of myself and began to orient back into the culture,
began for the first time to move into the culture in a way
that I was supposed to as a man. It was she that talked me
into applying for the Guggenheim. I had a quarrel with Rexroth
about this time. Once again, Mary Fabilli was the cause of this.
Rexroth saw me as kind of an Abraham Lincoln character. I was
in a way the central hope for his beat generation. He seemed
to see in me the qualities of earthiness, of non-sophistication,
of innocence, of a Lincolnesque ruggedness, and yet, a great
sorrowing spirit at the same time, a man who had suffered in a

Antoninus: war, a man who had been locked up for his convictions. All
these things made a terrific image from Rexroth's point of
view. He saw the political possibilities of this too. He
began—well, Mary Fabilli cut right across this whole- line.
She began to civilize me; she took the long hair away; the
great hat disappeared. First thing you know, I came out in
a sport suit. I remember the turning night was early in 1947.
I got a call from Rexroth saying that Cyril Connolly, the
editor of Horizon, showed up in San Francisco and someone had
directed him to Rexroth. He wanted to meet some of the
writers around and would we come over. So Mary and I went
over; that night I arrived there, not in my hat, not in my
long hair, not in my forester coat, my green forester outfit.
All of that was gone.

Teiser: You had worn a green forester's outfit?
Antoninus: Yes, or maybe it was suntans with boots rather than shoes.

Mostly though I remember the Pendleton shirt, the forester's
coat and the big black Mennonite style hat. All these were gone
Rexroth was so taken back. I think he wanted to introduce this
giant man, the western man, to this sophisticated Englishman.
He kind of turned on Mary savagely when Connolly and I were off
in a corner together. He just accused her of emasculating me
really, just making me civilized. Her pride is such that when
she left there that night, she was mortally offended by this
treatment. Of course, it meant that from that point on my
feelings were compromised. Rexroth was a father figure to me

Antoninus: and important to me. To have this emotional split in me

between the wife and the father figure was extremely painful
to me. I did not face up to it in a manly way. I only
equivocated in it. This is another Virgoan tendency, that is
dependent on outside polarities. It needs its centers of
reference there to be pretty well established. It senses a
confusion between them or an ambivalence between them and
suffers. I cannot really solve the problem. 1 could neither
solve it between them... this whole situation in the group was
becoming more and more ambivalent. The same thing has happened
at the camp, the problem of the women, the confusion, the same
thing broke out with the anarchists in San Francisco. It was
always the woman problem which began to cut across the
ideational lines. The emotional problems cut across the ab
stract philosophical ones. Everything was beginning to blow up.
As Kenneth felt this thing blowing up around him, he became
more difficult. He became more explosive and more binding in
his own marriage problem with his second wife which was be
coming more acute. Finally, he just pulled up stakes and went
to Europe. Martha went with him, and his own marriage to--
what is her name--he dedicated this book to her--Marie, any
way that marriage came to an end and he was gone away for a

couple of years. The thing that brought this to a head between

•
us was when my book came out in New Directions.

Teiser: What was the title of that book?

Antoninus: The Residual Years.

Teiser: What year?

Antoninus: That was 1948. I had contracted for that book with Laughlin
in 1947, 1946 or 1947. He had taken the manuscript. Months
went by and nothing had happened with it. I was so deep in
printing at that time and such a perfectionist that 1 was
agonized over every little flaw in my printing. When the
New Directions book came. .. .actually, I see now that from a
publications point of view, it was a stunning book and just what
I needed. However, there were so many flaws in it from a purely
typographical point of view that I was outraged, my perfectionist
nature was outraged. By this time the difficulty had already
occurred. My whole year, in fact, had been going on with this
ambivalence. Rexroth had written the dust jacket blurb for
that book, which threw me right into the opposition. He wrote
a blurb antagonistic to the academic crowd, especially people
like the Partisan Review. My situation was that I did not want
to get into a fight with them. I knew that I was going to get
clobbered hard enough, but I did not want to be anybody's war
head. I was disturbed by both of these factors. One was that
I knew that a lot of money had been lavished on the book, but
at the same time I could not rejoice in it the way that every
one else did. All I could see here were the flaws. The other
thing was that I was smarting because I felt that the dust
jacket was injudicious, that it was unnecessarily antagonistic

Antoninus: to the reviewers, that it was not going to really work, that
it was not going to really amount to anything like a new
generation or a new movement. That and I had become the
center of attack with nothing behind me to support me.
This is actually what happened.

I wrote Kenneth a letter too which made him angry. Then he-
called up and asked me to come over to have a party for the
coming out of the book. The problem between he and Mary was
such though that I could only decline. I had not been to
visit him for an awfully long time because when I took the
night shift at the press, I could not get out much. That was
my excuse. All these were just equivocations because I would
have found the ways if the situation had been right. I made
these escuses. These excuses went on and on until they were
no longer tenable. Then "Poof!" the whole situation blew up.
After that Kenneth radically began to break, break, break
with his friends. Then he went to Europe.

Conversion to Catholicism

Antoninus: In 1949, it was at that same time, it was through Mary that I
got in contact with Catholicism. My pantheism had suffered
a stunning blow at the collapse of the first marriage because
that pantheism was based on a kind of religious sexuality which
was really brought up short in the breakdown of that rdat ion-
ship. In a way the whole strength of my pantheism adhesion

Antoninus: had been shocked by the human failure. It was as if my intent
to make a religiousness out of sex alone had come a cropper on
the bare human personal relationship. The fact of the per
sonal relationship disrupting in the middle of this transcending
mysticism, sexual mysticism, it was like one part of my nature
saying, "Hold on a minute!" This is another thing that Mary
Fabilli healed because, being a Catholic, it was the personal
element that was always the first concern with her. It was
the failure of the personal element which had been the flaw
in my first marriage because I was not capable of a true
enough personal relationship.

Teiser: Did this take you away from Lawrence then?
Antoninus: Mary Fabilli did, yes. It was my time with Mary Fabilli
that broke both my Jeffersian pantheism and my Lawrencian
erotic mysticism. She personalized this, her whole touch
was to personalize, to humanize, she had that laughing
sensibility of the personal dimension in the human physical
and natural context, but a cultural thing. The City of God
is a cultural thing. When I was a pantheist, I was off in
the woods, the great Jeffersian cliff-hanger. It was this
that was the stepping stone to my conversion to Catholicism.
It was her touch there. Also the intuition to which her
course led me is that my mystical needs, my religious needs,
which had not been really met in my pantheism, could only
find their solution in the more permeable human context, and

Antoninus: in a ritual and a rite, and a mythos that was established in
a historical continuity. Of course, Catholicism, with its
sense of sacramental presence, has a sense of immediate
physical contact with God through the sacraments rather than
the Protestant ethical abstractness, the separation between
man and God on an ethical dimension. The distinction but
relation to God through a kind of abstract ethical dimension
that you get, at least in contemporary Protestantism, never
could get near to me because it was not really physical. It
was not until I found some point of connection between my
physical needs and the tangible mystic that I was able to go
forward in another religious dimension.

As soon as this occurred, as soon as her work with my mind
had achieved a triumph and I became a believer, then our
relationship was doomed because we both had valid marriages
behind us. The Church could not sanction our union because
it could not be regularized in terms of our Church code.
Teiser: Are there ways that that could have been done?
Antoninus: With a little more documentation, it might have been possible
in her case. When she married, her first marriage was in
the Church, although she no longer believed. She had the
ceremony in the Church in order to satisfy her parents.
There is no way to prove that. In my own case, although
I had not been baptized, my previous wife had. There was not
really any way on either side. It just meant separation.

Antoninus: She moved away but left me there because the press was there.
She took a room in a rooming house. I stayed in the Ashby
Avenue house, which was her house and where she is now. She
realized that I needed that context and that she could adjust
better in that period than I, so she graciously let me stay.
I finished the binding of A Privacy of Speech then. I had
printed that up through 1948 and the first part of 1949. The
colophon says the finish was on Candlemas Day, the second of
February. Then I began to master the binding.

Guggenheim Grant
Antoninus: Then the first of May my Guggenheim had come through, so I

left my job with the University Press. In those few months

I had learned how to bind.
Teiser: Was A_Priya_cy of Speech the only book that you printed in

Berkeley?

Antoninus: Yes, and that first broadside, The Announcement.
Teiser: How many copies of A Privacy of Speech did you print?
Antoninus: One hundred.

Teiser: Did you stay in Berkeley the year that you had the Guggenheim?
Antoninus: Yes. I sat up there and wrote like mad, just wrote like crazy.
Teiser: Did you write more than you printed?
Antoninus: Yes, I was binding most of it. Trying to get started after the

binding, trying to get started on a new work. I was confused

about what I should print. I wanted to go forward in the line

Antoninus: of book.

Teiser: Your Guggenheim was for your poetry, not your printing?

Antoninus: That's right, although I probably could have gotten it on

either. But I did write more than I had ever written before
in any one year, anyhow.

Teiser: Had it ever occurred to you to print for profit?

Antoninus: Never. It never has occurred to me, I could have at that

time. Rexroth just wanted me in the worst way to set up shop,
attend to jobs and earn my living that way instead of being a
janitor. He could not understand that side of me. He did not
know what I had to perfect, though, and I did. He understands
it now. He would be able to see the work and understand it,
but at that time he did not know what my goals were. He did
not know what my needs were. I did not have any goals really;
I just had needs. These I had to discover out of the raw
materials of the hand press and then produce them.
After the Guggenheim was over, I had to do something. I did
not want to go back to my job because I had become too apos
tolic at that time. I was already thinking in terms of an
order. Once the marriage again was separated, these two
truncations from profound loves in a three year period there
were great shocks to my psyche.

Catholic Worker House
Antoninus: I knew my mystical needs were going to take me into a much

more concrete realization of the inner life of the Church.

I was already thinking of an order but I could not find one

that was right, so I drifted down to this Catholic Worker

House.

A priest named Father Dugan was down at St. Mary's Church

in Oakland at the Parish where this Catholic Worker House

was. He more or less told me that I was to go down there.

He said, "I am going to solve your problem for you. You need
someone to tell you what to do. You go down to the Catholic

Worker House." So I went down; this must be about April of
1950. It was not until later in the fall that I got the

press moved out of the Ashby house. The reason that I had
to give up the house too was that a crisis occurred in Mary's
family that looked as if she was going to have to ask her
mother and her brother to move in so she needed her house
for that. It did not work out that way, but anyhow my whole
process of moving out of the Ashby house was hinged around
all these factors.

I went down there and once again I found myself moving this
great, enormous press. I had moved it up to Treesbank; I
had moved it back from Treesbank; now I was moving it down
into Oakland. Here I changed the name from the Equinox to
the Seraphim Press.

61
Antoninus: Now the Seraphim is one of the orders of angels. It is the

order that of all the angels is the highest. I think the two
highest orders of the angels are the Seraphim and the Cherubim.
The Franciscans have adopted the Seraphim as their "mascot."
The Dominicans have adopted the Cherubim. The Cherubim were
supposed to move more by knowledge and the Seraphim moved
more by love. My instincts at that time were very much more
Franciscan than Dominican. I was a natural born Franciscan,
a natural born beatnik type of Franciscan. The Dominicans,
with their real structured intellectuality and what not, were
too Appollonian for me. This was a terrible ordeal down there,

Teiser: Albert Sperisen, in his interview in this series, said when
he first met you, you had a big press in a shed in Oakland
that was barely larger than the press itself.

Antoninus: Yes, the one that Al Sperisen saw was in the little back
shed of the Catholic Worker House.

Teiser: He said that there was hardly any space for you to operate
the press; but you did print there?

Antoninus: I printed the Triptych for the Living there.

Teiser: When did you complete that?

Antoninus: That would be the Fall of 1950 and the Winter and Spring of
1951 that I completed the printing.

Teiser: How many copies of the Triptych for the Living did you print?

Antoninus: 200, but that was a mistake, and I bound only 100, or less
than 100 really, maybe 85.

Teiser: Where are the rest?

Antoninus: I burned them.

Teiser: You culled the best?

Antoninus: Yes. I did not bind any there. I bound the Triptych after 1
got in the order.

Teiser: Binding seems to be more important to you than to most printers.

Antoninus: Yes, this was due to my need for an integral book, a per
manent book, my perfectionist needs. I did not want really to
bind; I was not too much interested in it, but I had to re
solve my needs, which called for a completion of the thing
that I had begun. I was carried by a kind of a teleological
finality in achieving that binding.

Teiser: Did you bind both of these in the same way?

Antoninus: No, I sewed them the same way. That is, I sewed them on bands
and worked the head bands on in the Medieval tradition. I
think that is the first edition that has been done that way
in hundreds of years. You see A Privacy of Speech had a vellum
spine, but it had a decorated board. That may be what they
call a quarter binding. The Triptych for the Living was bound
with vellum the way William Morris used to do. Only even
there I turned that around and did other things with it. I
made it a more integral thing than even he had. I don't know
why I say that. I don't even know now what I did. In both of
these books, you see, the binding on A Privacy of Speech was

Antoninus: flawed because I built more in it than was necessary. I got
thin parchment vellum to sew around the end signature; so that
the book opens stiffly. It was built too solid. It was like?
building a block house for a chicken coop. I thought that.
That is too extreme an analogy, but the strength was far more
than was needed.

Teiser: How did you distribute these two books? Did you sell them?

Antoninus: Just directly from my place there.

Teiser: What was the price?

Antoninus: Each one of them was $12.50.

Teiser: What are they bringing now?

Antoninus: Oh, $50. I would have sold them for less than that, but
Mary Fabilli would not hear of it.

Teiser: It couldn't have paid for the materials.

Antoninus: No, it didn't.

Teiser: How long did you stay with the Catholic Worker group?

Antoninus: 14 months.

Teiser: What did you do?

Antoninus: The men did the house chores but they needed .supervision. They
needed someone there in order to keep the house going. Carroll
McCool was the man in charge of the house. He was the important
figure at that time because he introduced me to the mystical
life, the spirit. He is an ex-Trappist. He introduced me to
the new spiritual life with a new dimension, a life of prayer.
He taught me how to really sustain a prolonged period of

Antoninus: prayer and it served me in great stead when I got into the
order. It got me through many crises that if he had not
given me that background, I would not have been able to find
my way through. It also got me through down there. There
was not any real work to do.
Teiser: You mean for you and him?

Antoninus: Yes, I was his assistant. So we had plenty of time for prayer.
The first months I was there, that is about all we did, sus
tained prayer. After awhile the other side of my nature began
to come back. As I explained, I do these things in this ob
sessive way until I carry it to a breaking point, either I
break down or I master the thing. Then I go out and do a
new thing.

By that time Father Osborn, who was the Dominican who was
my spiritual advisor, said that the time had come for me to
see the side that I had to get back to. I should go back to
my craft, so that was when I moved my press down there and
printed my book. The life of prayer kind of tapered off and
the return to the craft began.

Dominican Order and Psalter
Teiser: Did you go directly from the Catholic Worker house into the

order?
Antoninus: St. Albert's College in Oakland, yes, in May of 1951. Then

that fall I moved the press again for the last time, from the

Antoninus: Catholic Worker house to St. Albert's. Then I began to print
the Psalter there, the Novum Psalterium Pii XII, the new
Psalter of Pius the Twelfth, it is called.

Teiser: That is the project that was incomplete?

Antoninus: Yes.

Teiser: What was the history of that?

Antoninus: As I look back on it from a psychological point of view, I can
see that what had happened was that I was captured by the
great work archetype. I was filled with this terrific idealism
in my work, and I wanted to do some great work to contribute in
some great way to the life of the Church both as a writer and
as a craftsman. Being in the order and in my monastic phase,
it was that monastic side rather than my literary side, my
charismatic side that was winning out. It was more of a
complement to my monastic psychology than the writing of poetry.
So I conceived this plan. In 1945 Pius the Twelfth had approved
a new Latin translation of the Psalms, There had not been an
improved translation since the Vulgate, which was almost 1500
years before. I saw this as a great moment for a printer. I
also saw that the Mainz Psalter was coming up; the quinti-
centennial of the Mainz Psalter would be coming up in 1957. This
was in 1951. I thought that in six, actually five--I could not
hope to begin before 1952--years I could produce my book in time
for the Quinticentenary of the Mainz Psalter. I got permission
to do that, although the order told me that they could not put
any money into it.

Toiser: I think you have described the physical set-up in St. Albert's
College in this article in the Quarterly Newsletter of the
Book Club of California for the summer of 1954.

Antoninus: Yes, 1 really spelled it out pretty much what rny whole plan was
there. I also spelled out the difficulties thai arose, my
final perfecting of my printing knowledge. Each book brought
a different kind of a struggle with it. The first was the
sheer mastery of the technique, the second was an attempt to
expand the technique into a larger production, doing 200 rather
than 100, which failed because I could not keep my quality up.
The third was the attempt to integrate that knowledge finally
into a consummate whole.

The other article that I had written before that, called
"Latter-Day Hand Press," in the closing pages of that I spoke
of the need of the printers of this area to return to the
attempts of the twenties to try to produce something like the
Grabhorn Whitman or the Nash Dante. I proclaimed to my fellow
printers that we are not carrying through. We are being
diverted by printing slick little keepsakes and things like
that, but we are not offering ourselves to the greatest. I
said a noble failure is greater than many trivial successes.
Teiser: That was in the Book Club Quarterly Newsletter of spring 1950.
Antoninus: Oh, yes. In a way I was taking that challenge up myself.

Although I knew that 1 might fail, I also knew that I had to
begin in some way and try.

Teiser: How many copies and pages were you planning?

Antoninus: 50 copies, about 300 pages altogether, I guess it would have-
come to. This was folio size. That was a big challenge
because 1 had never worked with folio size before. By work
ing on quarto size, you could work and turn the sheets. You
would damp once, print from head to head, turn the sheet
over and print the other side, then dry. This way I had to
work at one side and then work the other side. It required
a totally different method of handling the paper and keeping
the moisture constant. Also by this time my standards had
gone up a notch or two. I knew that the paper had to be a
lot drier than I had been printing it in order to get the
proper degree of crispness into the paper to make the im
pression just right. This meant that your handling of your
damping had to be far more subtle.

It was printing the Paalter, especially in the experiments
with the first runs, that I really finally centered in and
got to where I could perfect; I knew that I was able to
achieve what I wanted in the damping of the paper for the
first time.

Teiser: How far did you get with it?

Antoninus: Well, I did not get very far. I think that the page numbers
go up to 70. It was the first third. You see I was working
in Latin, which I did not know. At the start T was using
those ae_ and c& diphthongs that are together. Later, I de
cided that those were too late, that typographically in many

68
Antoninus: ways it would be better, more pure, if I did not use those

and if I used the i instead of the j.
Teiser: What type were you using?

Antoninus: Oh, that whole story of the Goudy New Style I spelled out in
the Introduction to the Psalter. I had these three different
holdings. I had my own, which I got from Ted Freedman who had
gotten it from the--anyway, the person who had bought it new
was Wilder Bentley. He had sold it to some press. Ted Freedman
had gotten it from them, and I got it from him. One or two big
cases of it. It was not enough to set up twelve full pages,
though, so I had to find more of it. The Grabhorns were good
enough to lend me theirs. Then over and above that, I borrowed
from the University of California Press through Joe Baxley.
I could never ask for myself, but Joe Baxley came along like a
guardian angel just in time. Well, I had to keep all these
types separate when I was working. I had to keep all of these
separate, set so far with one, mark that place, then go on
and set with another. This was a great bother, but the type
prints beautifully. I think the success of the Grabhorn
Whitman lies in that. I think I discovered that there is some
relation between the type face and ink in that. The surface
tension and the ink on the type have something to do with it.
There is a boldness in the print which a narrower type will not
give. I don't think that is generally understood. I think its
beauty on the press is that with the best ink, it is almost

Antoninus: perfect. It has something to do with the amount of area

occupied. Anyway it really prints. Ed Grabhorn says the same
thing. He says the press-work achieved in some of those pages
is apogee; I believe it. It reached a point of perfection.

Teiser: Did you print fifty of each page?

Antoninus: I printed 60, but with spoilage the edition came to 48. I
worked and worked and worked, up until the winter of 1954.
Then the whole project blew sky high. I just reached the
terminus point and could not sustain it up to the completion.
I can look back now, and knowing what I know now, I can say
that I should have finished it; I should have gone forward
and I'd have done it.

The monastic psychology, which was the dominant impress when
I began it, began to break down after several years because
it was an artificial thing, an imposed thing. Monasticism,
as I was trying to lead it, can not be reimposed on the modern
sensibility. I am a man of my own time, and my own self began
to break through. The false projection on a merely attributed
monasticism could not sustain that work. I should not have
tried such a big one.

Teiser: What happened to the pages of the book then?

Antoninus: I wrote to Dawson's Book Shop in Los Angeles and asked if we
could market it as a fragment. You see, the thing that
diverted me at this point is that I conceived the idea that I
wanted to be a priest rather than a brother. This would mean

Antoninus: that I would have to come over to this house here in Kent fie Id
which was the clerical novitiate at that time. So I thought
I would abandon my press for a greater vocation. This is one
of the subtle ways by which you can get out from under some
thing. You can find something greater. Then everyone will
be compelled to say that you did not fail, that you advanced
to something nobler.

This is what I cooked up in my own unconscious. I cooked up
this higher state which would deliver me from this terrible
burden and also from the fear of failure, the fear to admit
to the world, ... already this book was becoming celebrated
among printers. The fear of failure was very great although
I did not understand this at that time. I conceived this
higher vocation then which no one could impugn me for. I
asked my superiors and they said, "Yes." They were not
really convinced by it, but I kept the heat on until I talked
them into it. Finally they said that I could try it. So I
abandoned my Psalter and made arrangements to market, it as a
fragment. Then Mrs. Doheney came into the picture. She
bought the sheets from them. Mrs. Doheney is the great book
woman. She was down in Los Angeles. She bought the sheets
from them

Teiser: From the Fathers or from Dawson?

Antoninus: From Dawson. She had it bound at the Lakeside Bindery in
Chicago.

Teiser: How was it bound?

71.

Antoninus: It is bound in full Morocco. They waited a year to find the;
right leather. Al Sperisen told me that it must have cost
$75 a copy to bind.

Teiser: Where did the copies go then?

Antoninus: She gave them to institutions. Each one was hand Inscribed with
a beautiful inscription to whoever was to receive it. Number
One went to the Pope, Pope Pius the Twelfth. Number Two wenL
to me, and Number Three went to Cardinal Mclntyre. I. always
jokingly say that shows where I stand in the Church. As far as
I know, none went to individuals.

Teiser: What year was it finally distributed?

Antoninus: This was Christmas of 1955. I had sold them in the spring of
1954 so most of that time was just waiting for the leather.

Teiser: Did you sell them for anywhere near the actual cost of
production?

Antoninus: I think the arrangement was that I would get $10 a copy and

the book store would get $10 a copy. We would put a $5 bind
ing on it, and then there was $5 because a new title page
had to be printed. We thought we would get Saul Marks to do
that.

Teiser: Did you?

Antoninus: Yes, he did it. We thought $5 a copy would cover that, $5 to

bind it, $10 to me, and $10 to the bookseller. I think that is
the way it was set up. When Mrs. Doheney came into the act,
I resented all these things because she is a millionaire. What

72
Antoninus: I was doing at one level to expedite things, well, 1 was

profoundly distressed with the arrangements that went on down
there between Dawson's and Mrs. Doheney. I felt that the Dawscms
had just in a way scooped me out. They did not really make it
clear to me what they were doing. Then the first thing I knc-w
was that the transaction had been made and she had taken over
the whole project.

Teiser: You had not been in on any of the discussions in any way?
Antoninus: I certainly did not know what was going on. I might have been
informed, but not in any way that I could have grasped it. It
was something that was done. I think it was done that way
because their dependency on her was so great. They were her
bookseller and they had done thousands and thousands of dollars
of business for her. When she began to move into that context,
there was very little resistance possible there. I was really
distressed by the way that the whole thing turned out.

Teiser: Are you pleased with the way the books themselves turned out?

Antoninus: No, this is another thing. It is like the New Directions book.
Anyone looks at it and thinks that it is a staggering achieve
ment. I only see it in terms of my vision and I realize that
it is not mine.

Teiser: How about the Jeffers poem that you wrote that someone else
later printed? Do you feel that way about that?

Antoninus: Yes, it is not mine.

Teiser: How can you go on writing poetry and having others print it then?

7 '3
Antoninus: I don't aver to that. My sights are focused on another

place. I don't let it get to me. But, a piece of mine:, my
own writing, like this Psalter is the most painful example;
I would never have treated the title pages or the preliminaries
• the way Saul Marks did. In a way the book is a kind of com
petition between the machine press and the hand press. He had
a terrible job to do. He had in some way to approximate the
press work in that. Some people think that he did. Some
people think that by printing dry on the very same paper that
I printed on he showed that the machine press could equal the
finest hand craftsman. I don't believe that. I believe that
the machine touch is omnipresent in those preliminary pages,
and I believe that the hand press is omnipresent in the hand
printing. See, he used the monotype to set the type of the
preliminaries too. I had written this long introduction.
That is another thing that made me sore is the way they tore
out my essay.

Teiser: It is not printed as you wrote it?

Antoninus: No, and although I admit that I tacitly gave them permission,
I thought it was a financial thing with them. I found out
later that it was just that Mrs. Doheney did not want the
parts that I had lifted from this "Printer as Contemplative,"
simply because it had appeared somewhere else. Then I got
sore again. I wanted to make it my last will and testament
to the craft of printing. The way she cut it back down, it

Antoninus: could not be that. I feel cheated on so many different levels.
You see, I had it coming though. I asked for this when I
abandoned it. I did not have enough self-knowledge to know
what I was doing and I should have.

Teiser: What happened to your Press? Where is it now?

Antoninus" It is still at St. Albert's.

Teiser: Has anyone used it since?

Antoninus: No, I came over here to Kentfield and tried for six months,
here in the clerical novitiate. It became increasingly
apparent to me that this was not my vocation. Then the full
force of failure really had to come at me because not only
had I failed one thing, but I had failed two. I went back
there with neither my Psalter nor my priesthood. This was a
real stripping down. It was a real facing up to myself that
I had to go through and realize that I had just been the
creature of fantasies and projections. I could only leave
behind :ne fragments and not completed works unless I really
shaped up. It was a great turning point in my life.

Writings

Teiser: Had you been continuing to write poetry?

Antoninus: I had. My last poems that I wrote were over here in Kentfield,
the clerical novitiate in 1954, the fall of 1954. Those were
the last poems in The Crooked Lines of God, which the University
of Detroit published.

Teiser: When was that?

Antoninus: 1959. I printed that at St. Albert's but it was not on the
hand press; it was on the machine press. After I founded my
press, they began to beef up the press and brought over that
machine press from St. Dominic's in San Francisco.
Teiser: Do they print there now?
Antoninus: Yes, there is a brother here who commutes over there every

day and prints.
Teiser: For the order?
Antoninus: Yes. I should be working there probably, but I have lost out.

I am working on other things now.
Teiser: Do you write regularly now?

Antoninus: Yes, I get up every morning and try to write. Mostly I am
writing prose now. I am working on my book on Jeffers, and
finishing a book on the assassination of Kennedy from an
archetypal point of view—the Cain and Abel myth of rival
brothers and the solution to that, the enigma of the
assassination.

Teiser: So you are writing relatively little poetry and more prose?
Antoninus: The last poetry I wrote was early this year (1965). I

finished my book called The Rose of Solitude.
Teiser: Is that to be published?

Antoninus: Yes, I don't have it through the censors of the order yet, but
Doubleday is beginning to needle me for another book. I am
ready to have it go.

Teiser: Who printed your book on Robinson Jeffers, The Poet is Dead?

Antoninus: Auerhahn Press in San Francisco. That was printed in
February of 1963, I think.

Teiser: Is that your last published work?

Antoninus: Yes, as I mentioned earlier, Oyez in Berkeley is just bringing
out a book of mine called Single Source. It is my first three
books reprinted: These Are The Ravens, San Joaquin, and The
Masculine Dead. None of them ever had any general circulation.
I'll be happy to see those put back into circulation.

Teiser: When you started your study for the priesthood, you came over
here. Then did you return to St. Albert's?

Antoninus: Yes, I went back there about Easter time of 1955.

Teiser: What were your duties then?

Antoninus: Well, I had to return to the regular duties of bellman work
and porter duty and things like that. I flung myself into
trying to finish my autobiography. I was writing a prose
version at that time, kind of a model of the Confessions of
St. Augustine. That was my model for that. I had begun that
before I left there. After I went back there, I kind of
sustained myself through that crisis by pouring myself into
that prose work. It turned out to be only a fragment too.
I just had to let it hang.

Teiser: Is it still laid aside?

Antoninus: That is another story. This autobiography I began to write

about the same time that I began to print the Psalter. I was

Antoninus: writing poetry through here too. I was not writing when I
began in a very sustained way. I just began something that
would be a kind of a sketch. Then I would write something
else that would tie in. Then the first thing you know, 1
would say, "Well, maybe I really ought to try to organize
this material into an autobiography of some kind." By the
time I had gotten over here and the vision of this thing
began to crest, I was throwing myself into it. 1 was
throwing all my creative energies into the writing of this
autobiography. I called it Prodigious Thrust after a quo
tation I found someplace. I have never been able to find it
again, but the quotation goes something like this: "The
whole of creation seeks to transcend itself, to go out of
itself in a prodigious thrust at the absolute." So I took
that "prodigious thrust" out of there and used it as a title.
This book is really the story of meeting Mary Fabilli and my
life with her, and the crisis of conversion, and the separation
in order to enter the Church. Somehow I had the feeling that
this personal crisis was the most dramatic single element
in the whole narrative. If I could focus on that, perhaps
some clue would emerge.

When I began it I felt that many of my friends were profoundly
shocked. It was bad enough for them that I should enter the
Church of Rome, but the thing that really shocked them was

Antoninus: when I separated from Mary Fabilli in order to take up an
abstract religious idea. I sensed this. I sensed it in
Joyce and Adrian Wilson. I sensed it in everyone, this
stunned alienation that 1 had from them. Somehow I wanted
to justify that or at least make it comprehensible. I began
to write this book then.

As soon as I began to write it, 1 told Mary Fabilli that I
was writing it and should I show it to her? She thought a
minute and said, "No, I don't think that you should. You
should write it, then if it is all right with your superiors
in the order, they should publish it. I don't want to get
involved in whether it should or should not be published."
I accepted that, so that gave me the freedom to write the
whole thing out as I felt it.

When I finished it, I showed it to Father Victor White.
Victor White is, was—he is dead now—an eminent English
Dominican theologian who worked with Jung a lot. He has
written a book called God and the Unconscious. Later he wrote
one called The Unknown God , which are wonderful books for
modern times on that kind of a synthesis of certain aspects
of theology with modern depth psychology findings. When I
left here and went back to St. Albert's he became kind of my
mentor. He was teaching over there at St. Albert's.
I showed him this book to read. He was very impressed with it

Antoninus: and thought that it should be published. Well, I submitted
it then to the censors. Nothing much happened with it.
They read it, but they thought, that the book was too strong.
Victor White himseli did not, and h i r-; authority was so
great that, just a behind-t he-scenes talking about it, they
were kin-) ••/! loath to make a decision. Anyway they decided
that Mary f ->v> i 1 I i ' •; attempt to separate herself from the
book wa s not ry realistic since she was going to be the
one that worrd have to bear any of the repercussions that
the book would have on the public. They decided that I
should show the book to her and have her read it.
I was loath to do this, but since they said that is what
should be done, that is what 1 did. I gave it to her to
read. Her reaction was negative. She felt that it was too
much of an exposure of our relationship. I had gone into
some of the sexual problems in too much detail. This is
why she never wanted to see it in the first place because
she knows me and she knows that I over-write, being an old
Lawrencian. She knows that I over -write in those details
anyhow, in order to concretize them and finalize them, to
establish them. I did; I did not pull any punches. That is
where the power of it lies. I knew what had to be done. If
it were going to meet the time, then there was no use writing
another Seven Story Mountain. The world had that. What it

Antoninus: needed was something more near the drama of man and woman,
and the ordeal of faith. I moved right into the center of
that. I really hit it. It was too good; it was tough too.
She said, "NO." Then Father White went to talk to her about
it and convinced her that she should permit it. There is
when the trouble began. If we could have just left it then,
that this was her feeling about it, but from this point on,
she became ambivalent like I was with Rexroth. When
eminent theologians tell you that you should publish a book,
or permit a book to be published because many souls will
benefit by it.... Well, the book was difficult for her in
two ways: not only because it was a naked exposure of the
intimacies, but also I made a saint out of her in the bargain,.
She, in a sense, in approving the work for publication, had
to approve her own canonization in the public mind. This
was something that she did not think she could give. So
somebody would get to her and talk to her and she would say
"Yes." Then they would go. A week or so they would come
back and she would become disturbed. Finally, the relation
ship between us just broke down. It reached the point where
some incident occurred and she called up very disturbed
demanding that.... Her demands would always take the form
of increasing the amount of approval necessary for publication.
By the end of it, she had some fantastic criterion where there
were 12 theologians whom she would name who would have to

Antoninus: universally approve it or she would not be able. Well, it was
out of the question.

She refused to publish it. They probably would have passed
it though. Maybe they would not have. Because only Father
White of those who had read it, even Father Vann- -Gerald
Vann, who is also dead--he has written many books — even he
thought it held her position in jeopardy before the public.
What happened was that a salesman was going through San
Francisco and he stopped in at the Junipero Serra Shop, which
is a Catholic arts goods shop on Maiden Lane. He was talking
to Phil Burnham, who was co-owner there at that time. Phil
mentioned this autobiography. This was a salesman for Sheed
and Ward. He went back and told Frank Sheed in New York that
he had heard about this book. I got this letter from Frank
Sheed asking me to see this book. I sent it back to him,
telling him the history of it and the impasse that it was
in. At this time Mary Fabilli and I were out of communication.
The whole relationship had just collapsed. That was another
crushing impasse.

Departure From and Return To The Order

Antoninus: Well, my trials with the order had become very nearly a crescendo
after my leaving here. The article on me in Time magazine Jn
1959 mentions that 1 left the order for three weeks.

Teiser: When was that?

Antoninus: 1959. It mentions that I left the order for three weeks
when they brought in television. What had happened there
was that these series of incidents after my leaving here in
Easter of 1955 and on through 1956--by the summer of 1956
my point of relation to the order had reached a kind of a
crisis. Father White was telling me that I really must
leave, that I was deteriorating under the stress of the
situation, that I had to get out. Yet, I could not get out.
I could not leave. Yet, that television set formed a
catalyst for the whole movement; it was just a symbol. I
was clinging to the old monastic norms that every invasion
of the world into the monastary was cutting it down, water
ing it down, that the world was triumphing. We were jealous
of our ancient monastic heritage. The television had
entered every other house in the province but that one, the
house of formation over there. When I came in one morning
and saw them installing a television, it was the symbol that
I needed. I just crystallized, packed up and went out.
Teiser: Where did you go?

Antoninus: I began to try to make another move back to the land some
way. I went and lived with friends, the La Placas, up by
Mills College for two or three weeks. My spiritual advisor,
after Father White had gone back to England, was Father
Thomas.

Teiser: It must have been a very trying period.

Antoninus: It was the breaking point. After that I had to find another

whole modality. The monasticism was gone. It would no longer
suffice to sustain me during the period which lay ahead. After
awhile I got in touch with Father Dugan again. He; was in
charge of a parish, in the meantime, at a Mexican settlement
outside of Hayward , called Decoto. He had a piece of property
there with a shed on it. He said that I could go out there
if I wanted to and stay there. So I began to make arrangements
to go and live in a subsistence manner. So I went down to a
food mill in Oakland where I got some grain and a grinder.
I was going to go out and subsist. I went out there, and t he-
first night out there I had a dream. A little before that,
earlier that year, I had broken into the unconscious. That
is to say, the whole problem had broken back in and I made
my first real break through into the unconscious. I began
to use the Freudian and Jungian techniques to analyze this
material. Father White had gone so I did not have anyone to
help me except what I could read in the books; but true to
form, I went to the books, read everything I could get from
the books.

What I am trying to say is that when I got out there, my
unconscious was in a very naked and exposed condition. I
am not trying to explain anything away, but tho first night

Antoninus: out there, I woke up in the middle of the night with a
nightmare. I was terribly afraid. I just felt utterly
naked, alone, and without any support. I had just stepped
off into something real deep. I got up that morning and I
went back into town. I went to St. Albert's and got hold of
Father Thomas, the one who was my director and had said that
it was time for me to go. I said to him, "I want to come
back." He said, "You can not come back; you have got to go
and see it through. Whatever it means for you, you simply
just can not come back in."

Well, that braced me up. I went out and spent that night
there integrating and going on. I got through that first
crisis point.

He showed up that next night, which would have been my third
night out there. It was a Friday night. He said, "Well, I
changed my mind. I think you belong back in the order. You
really belong there. It was a mistake for me to tell you to
leave. I have talked it over with the Provincial and he
thinks that you ought to come back. I have talked it
over with the Prior and he thinks that you ought to come

back. But mostly it's my mother, her woman's intuition. She

is sure you belong in the order. So I have come out to

get you."

I said, "All right." I threw my bag in the car and we went

back home .

Antoninus: Then the strange thing was that the next morning I got this
letter from Sheed and Ward telling me to fly hack to New York
to talk about my book, which I had sent them. If that letter
had come one day before that, I would not have gone back in.
It would have been the sign to keep going. But the very
fantastic event just suddenly came. I could only stand there
in awe realizing what it would have meant if I had received
that one day earlier.

Well, I explained to Sheed and Ward the problem with the book.
Frank Sheed proposed (1) an editing of the book by an outside
hand to make it suitable to both; he thought he could do it.
(2) that I should fly back there to discuss it.
I did fly back. That was my first flight. That was in the
old propeller days before the jets. It seems like a very
long flight now back to New York. It was a tremendous
experience for me to be flown back to New York as an author
and to be received back there by a publisher and given the full
treatment of the valued — af ter a literary life, to suddenly
find myself wined and dined and lionized as the author of
this tremendous book which was going to be the new Seven
Story Mountain, which was really going to roll, etc. ,etc. ,etc.
Well, I made one mistake before I left, because it was my first
plane flight and naturally I was afraid. I wrote a letter to
Mary Fabilli telling her that I was flying back for this and
I knew Frank Sheed was a man she could trust. It was just

Antoninus: the utterly wrong thing to do (laughter). She went into
action then. She really went into action! When 1 got
back, I found myself confronted with everything from threats
of legal action to -- oh boy, it was dreadful! She was so
furious with me.

After I had gone back there, I left the book with Sheed and
Ward. Sheed had an accident and could not get to it for
awhile. By the next year — this would be in November of 1956--
by August or September of 1957, he had finally recovered from
his accident. He had edited the book and sent it to me for
approval. Then I blew my stack when I found out what he had
done to my book, how badly he had cropped it back. The whole
arrangement collapsed at that point. The book has stayed
right there; it has not gone anywhere beyond that point.
So there it sits.

Teiser: Since then, what have you been doing in the order?
Antoninus: About that time, about 1956 or 1957, there was an administrative
change, a new Prior at St. Albert's- -no 1957 or maybe even
1958. I was put to work in the print shop on a production
basis. But there was a brother put in as manager, and I
was able to do the actual production work. At that time my
work was the regular work, the refectory work, the bellman
work, and a lot of porter work, answering the phone. But
most of the day from that point was working in the print
shop as a production printer.

Teiser: Did you enjoy that?

Antoninus: No, I didn't. It was probably something good for me to

have to go through, in the same way that it is always good
to have to adapt your ideals to the world. There is a mass
of material, some of which I am fairly proud of, production
work, but there is a lot of it that I am not proud of at all
A lot of it was produced by brothers that I was training.
It has the stamp of my personality on it, but it is in no
way work that I would want to take credit for.

Work Since 1960
Antoninus: This has now changed again. In 1960 a new administration

came in following a Provincial election. The new Provincial
was anti-print shop. By this time, I had begun to go out on
the platform then and give my poetry readings. I was be
ginning to get some national publicity. He, for the first
time, was a Provincial who did not think that I should be
doing production work of any kind. He took me off of all
production work, whether it was dish washing, porter's work,
printing, or what. He wanted me just to write and give my
readings.

That began in 1960. He closed the print shop and sent the
managerial brother to another post. Nothing happened
then with the print shop until about a year ago. We had
another brother, and a new administration came along again

Antoninus: with some new motions made toward reviving the print shop.
This brother was sent to the Laney Trade School in Oakland
and is now reviving the press as a working unit.
Teiser: What kind of work does he print?
Antoninus: Just for the order. Letterhead, a lot of ordination cards

this year. When I was there, we were printing The Catalogs,
which was a fairly good-sized pamphlet or book. It was not
a bound book, but the biggest work of the year was to print
that. It was while I was doing production work that we did
The Crooked Lines of God for the University of Detroit.
So I did print my own book of poems then.
Teiser: Now you are writing, lecturing, and reading?
Antoninus: Yes, and I do some counseling.
Teiser: What do you mean?

Antoninus: Well, people seek you out by an affinity of types.
Teiser: Within your order?
Antoninus: No, lay people, very young married, or people of a semi-beat

or aesthetic orientation, etc.
Teiser: They come here to you?

Antoninus: Yes. It started at St. Albert's. I did a lot of it before
I came over here because there are more over there in that
section. There are a lot of beats who would want to come,
or people of that orientation would want to come and try to
get some help if they are in trouble, or they might want to
find out what makes me tick.

Teiser: Isn't that an unusual occupation for a lay brother?
Antoninus: It is, but then my work is all unusual. The writing and

the platform work is very unusual.
Teiser: Where have you been reading?

Antoninus: I make two trips a year generally, a fall and a spring one.
I take only a reading a week. That draws my trips out; quite-
long. The last one I came back from this fall was a two-month
trip. I began at the University of Tucson in Arizona, then
I went to Bowling Green State [Ohio], then to a seminary in
Detroit, then to Assumption College in Worcester, Massachusetts,
Boston College, back to John Carroll in Cleveland, over to
Oakland State University outside of Detroit, then to Purdue,
and finally Notre Dame.

Teiser: Are you paid as a regular lecturer?
Antoninus: I accept whatever honorarium they give me, but I do not

specify a fee.

Teiser: What do you do with the time between, the week between engage
ments?

Antoninus: I like to get on to the campus two or three days early and
start getting into the classes if I can. I like to start
some things moving, stir up some ferment, or a movement.
Teiser: You talk to the students?

Antoninus: Yes, if I can get something going, it starts to spread. You
can sense a movement of interest. I try to crest that by the
reading night.

Teiser: Do you work through the Newman Clubs or anything of that sort?

Antoninus: Anyone who will sponsor me. More and more the English

Departments are, because I am getting better known. I am
beginning to be anthologized now. It does not really matter
who my sponsor is though.

Teiser: How do you meet the students, through the sponsor?

Antoninus: After you are once in a couple of classes, you have more
than you can handle if you start to take; if you don't,
you don't have any. If you offer a fresh point of view,
they will listen.

Teiser: Do you participate in the classes, or do you just listen
and talk to the students afterwards?

Antoninus: No, I participate. I get up in front of the class and talk.
I am brought for a specific event, but I supplement my time
by that. It is a much more organic way to proceed, I have
discovered, than just to come on the campus. My readings are
more encounters. I throw a totally different dimension into
the platform appearance than is customary. I refuse to give
the standard format. My whole approach is much more direct.

Teiser: Has anyone ever objected to your stirring up students?

Antoninus: No, I have never encountered that. Usually, I stick to
literature. I am very aware of the problems of my being
there, so I am very careful not to get anywhere near what
could be accused of as proselytizing, so I keep it on
literary subject.

Teiser: I was not thinking so much of that as of philosophical and
psychological ideas that might be considered unusual for
some colleges.

Antoninus: I think I have the capacity not to ruffle feelings, to get
my point across without jeopardy to the sensibilities of
others. Often I will tell the class how easy it is for an
outside speaker to come in and in a half hour to wipe out
everything that the professor has been trying to do all year
just by slamming into it with another point of view which you
do not have to verify or spell out. All you have to do is
state it and then leave. I point out that this certainly is
not my intention. I try to insulate it as much as I can. I
have been remarkably fortunate sometimes, especially at the
beginning. They know me now so they have somewhat of an
idea of what I am going to do, but in the beginning they
were taken so completely by surprise that there would be some
reactions. I remember at the University of Oregon there was.
Often it centers in totally different areas. Like I come as
a beatnik and they are academic, they sometimes feel threatened
by this. At the same time they like to think of themselves as
being broad enough that they can accommodate others, so like
to present other views. Often they have to be very "mealy-
mouthed" about the way they do it.

Teiser: Do you consider yourself a beatnik or a pre-beatnik?
Antoninus: I always say pre-beat.

Teiser: What do you intend to do in the future?

Antoninus: Platform work is my obsession now. It is beginning to crest
now and I am beginning to move out more and more-, but 1 do
not know how long this phase is going to last.

Teiser: I think you told me the other day that you have recently
become interested in astrology. You are going to do .some
writing on that?
Antoninus: I am doing that piece on Jeffers from the astrological point

of view. I am trying to understand him better from a scrutiny
of his horoscope. I think there is a dimension in literary
criticism which I will do more of. Having discovered that
I am a Virgo, which is the sign of the critic, I have more
confidence in my aptitudes in that respect! I probably will
do more of it.

Teiser: I think you mentioned that you have been studying with a
Jungian and that what you learned from him fairly well
coincided with what you learned from astrology. Is that
correct?
Antoninus: Yes. I think it was an excellent preparation. But I doubt

that I would really have understood astrology if I had not had
a notion of the archetypes, the Jungian archetypes I have
never really studied with a Jungian, you understand, only read
their books. I doubt that I would have paid any attention
to it otherwise. It would not have had any meaning for me.
I would not have seen myself in it. It is only after having

9'i
Antoninus: experienced the archetypal realities and had the whole

process oriented from the exterior to the interior, been
able to make enough separations within myself, that later
I could see how the astrological configurations were
correlated to those separations.

Ruth Teiser

Grew up in Portland, Oregon; came to the Bay Area

in 1932 and has lived here ever since.

Stanford, B. A., M. A. in English, further graduate

work in Western history.

Newspaper and magazine writer in San Francisco since

1943, writing on local history and economic and

business life of the Bay Area.

Book reviewer for the San Francisco Chronicle

since 1943.

As correspondent for national and western graphic

arts magazines for more than a decade, came to

know the printing community.

Partial Index

Ark, The. 42
Atkisson, Jim, 18, 19
Auerhahn Press, 76

Baxley, Joe, 46, 68

Beat Generation, 40, 51, 91

Bentley, Wilder, 47, 48, 68

Brown, Dick, 44

Burnham, Phil, 81

Carothers, Kenneth, 30, 31

Cascade Locks Conscientious Objectors' Camp, 9, 15, 24, 25, 26, 27, 44

Catholic V.'orker House, 60, 61, 63, 64

Coffield, Glen, 9, 11, 12

Connolly, Cyril, 52

Davis, Chuck, 12
Dawson's Book Shop, 69, 70, 72
Decker Press, 22
Doheny, Mrs., 70-74
Dominican Order, 64, ff-end
Dugan, Father, 60, 83
Duncan, Robert, 24, 29, 38
Dupre, Vladimir, 24

Equinox, Press, 44, 60

Erie, Broadus, 11

Erie, Hildegarde, 26

Eshelman, Bill, 11, 13, 14, 15

Everson, William

family, 1-4; education, 4 ff; conscientious objectors camp, 8-18,
24-36; writings, pre-war, 18-22, war-time and post-war, 22-24;
post-war in the Bay Area, 36-40; influences of Kenneth Rexroth
and Mary Fabilli, 36-40; conversion, 55-58; Guggenheim grant, 58-
60; Catholic Worker House, 60-64; the Psalter, 64-74; more writings,
74-81; departure from and return to Dominican Order, 81-87;
lecture work, 87-93.

Fabilli, Mary, 29, 38, 43, 44, 51, 52, 55-58, 60, 63, 77-81, 85

Farquhar, Sam, 46

Fresno State Caravan, 4

Fresno State College, 4, 6, 19, 21

George, Vic, 46

Grabhorn Press, 66, 68, 69

Graves, Morris, 30-35

Guggenheim Fellowship, 51, 58, 59

Hackett, Harold, 9, 11
Hart, James D., 47,

11 1 C.

Hart, James D.,
Harvey, Bob, 11,
Hoffman, Hans A.,

lOD, J.J., 16

Hans A. , 20

Illiterati, 15, 16
Interplayers , 11

Jackson, Dave, 11

James, Barbara St raker, 14

James, Clayton, 11, 13, 14, 16, 30, 33

Jeffers, Robinson, 4, 5, 6, 21, 22, 23, 50, 56, 75, 76, 92

Kalal, Joe, 12, 13, 14
Kennedy, J.F., 75
Kentfield, 74
Kosbad, Earl, 9

LaPlacas, 82

Lamantia, Philip, 39, 43

Laughlin, James, 22, 54

Lawrence, D. H. , 22, 23, 50,56, 79

Marks, Saul, 71, 73
McCool, Carroll, 63, 64
Minersville, 28, 29

New Directions Press, 22, 53, 54, 72

New Music Quartet, 11

Nomland, Kemper, 9, 11, 13, 15, 24

Osborn, Father, 64
Oyez Press, 22, 76

Patchen, Kenneth, 24

Ponch, Martin, 11, 15

Pond Farm, Guerneville, 37

Porter, Fay, 21

Poulson, Edwa, 6, 7, 8, 29, 43, 57

Powell, Larry 21

Rexroth, Kenneth, 22, 38, 39, 40, 41, 43, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 59
Ritchie, Ward, 21

St. Albert's College, 64, 65, 66, 74, 75, 76, 78, 84, 86-88
San Francisco anarchists, 41, 42
San Francisco "beat" beginnings

see Rexroth and Beat Generation
Selective Service Laws, 17, 18
Seraphim Press, 60, 61
Sheed and Ward, 81, 85, 86
Sheed, Frank, 81, 85, 86
Sheets, Kermit, 9, 11, 15
Simons, Larry, 11, 13
Sloan Jacob, 14
Sperisen, Albert, 61, 75

97
Thomas, Father, 82, 84

Treesbank Farm, Sebastopol, 36-38, 43, 47, 60
Tyler, Hamilton, 36, 37, 38, 43
Tyler, Mary, 36, 37, 38, 43

University of California Press, 45-48, 58, 68
Untide Press, 11, 29, 36, 45

Vann, Father Gerald, 81

Waldport Conscientious Objectors Camp, 8-19, 24, 30-35, 50

Walhalla Camp, Michigan, 12

Westward Magazine, 20

Wilson, Adrian, 16, 21, 42, 78

White, Father Victor, 78, 80, 81, 82, 83

Brother Antoninus 's Printing

The Announcement, 58

Astonished Eye Looks Out of the Air, An, 24

Compass, 15, 16

Crooked Lines of God, The, 88

Generation of Journey, The, 14

Horned, Moon, The, 12

Novum Psalterium Pii XII, 49, 65-74, 76

Ode to the Virginian Voyage, 47

Poems MCMXLII, 23

Privacy of Speech, A, 58, 62, 63

Residual Years, The, 23

Triptych for the Living, 61, 62

Untide, The, 11, 12, 15, 16

Waldport Poems, 13, 14, 23

War Elegies, 12, 13, 23

Brother Antoninus 's Writings

Autobiography, 76, 77

Crooked Lines of God, The, 74, 75, 88

"Latter-Day Hand Press" 66

Masculine Dead, The, 22, 33, 53, 54, 76

Poet is Dead, The, 76

Privacy of Speech, A, 58

Residual Years, The, 19, 22

Rose of Solitude, The (Unpublished), 75

San Joaquin, 21, 76

Single Source, 76

Ten War Elegies, 12

These are the Ravens, 20, 23, 76

Triptych for the Living, 61

Waldport Poems, 14

The Prodigious Thrust, 77 (see Autobiography)

Non tuoald that night contain it.

Thece toas an age/insacgent/

Sccaujled on the stonetoock of the temple wall.

Thene was the massioe afteczraath/

Flanked ct»ith the doom of kings/

And the seccet seed

Spoced in the botoels of Erapiize.

Thece cuas the pocuecfal cegaoaping of the mind/

Whece the sotted pappets

Snotzed on theia gcosseiz thaones.

That. And the bace pocuerz/

Which is looe/focged noto/in the fcighted haman soul/

As the focce of a looe/lacgec than it/

Scoells the coizened heaizt

To the statcme of a faith.

q. Bipth/like death/

Toanscended. The blood
Burzned oat of the stable flooc.
Outside/the oxen and the ass
Ccanch theic cocn. Bat the man!
The man! seized in that aoctex/
Breaks on his knees/
And pca^ys!

THE WISE

miLES ACROSS THE TURBULENT KINGDOMS
They came foe it/but that toas nothing/
That toas the Least. Dcunk tuith oision/
Rain stringing the nagged beaods/
When a beast Lamed they caught another?
And goaded toest.

q: Foe the time cuas on them.

Once/as it majy/in the Life of a man;

Once/as it toas/in the Life of mankind/

All is coccected. And theic ryeaes of puasuit/

n zv 3.- ^L.

RauJ-ejyed ceading the cucong texts/
Chacting the doabtf aL calcaLations/

Those nights knotted cuith thought/

When datun held off/and the RoosteR

Rattled the leaoes coith his blind assection —

All that/they RegaRded/andeR the Sign/

No LongeR as seaRch bat as pRepaRation.

FOR cohen the maRk tuas made they saco it.

NOR stopped to Reckon the fallible yeans/

Bat Rejoiced and followed/

And ORC called u?ise/tDho leaRned that Tnuth/

When sought and at last seen/

Is neoeR foand. It is giuen.

And they bRoaght theiR camels
BReakneck into that village/

nd flung theraseloes doton in the dang and diet of that place/
nd kissed that gcound/and the teaos
an on the face cuhece the pain had.

i "

: •

• ••!•*-

•-:•{*

V;.r

COLOPHON

FRIPTYCH FOR THE LIVING ficst appealed in The Caebolic
Woekec/Decernbeo/1949/and was oepmnted in Nea?
Directions XI I/the aoant gacde annaal edited by James
Laughlin. In 1951 it seooed as title-poem to the ficst book
3f the Secaphim Poess/bat the pcesent painting consti
tutes its fiRst separate shocking.

fu?o hcindRed copies haoe been pointed on the handpoess
zy the aathop/in Amecican Uncial type on Tooil handmade
3apec/and completed in the month of Octobec/1955.

BAY AREA EDUCATIONAL
TELEVISION ASSOCIATION

Board of Directors

W. P. Fuller Brawner

Chairman

Mortimer Fleishhacker, Jr.
President

Melvin B. Lane
Secretary

Robert A. Lurie
Treasurer

Mrs. Charles Black

Mrs. Allen E. Charles

Lowell Clucas

William K. Coblentz

E. Morris Cox

Dr. Paul Dodd

Louis H. Heilbron

A. Ford Lovelace

Charles Mayer

John L. Merill

Lyle M. Nelson

Roland Pierotti

Mrs. Benson B. Roe

Mrs. William Lister Rogers

Dr. Vaughn D. Seidel

Dr. Neil V. Sullivan

Caspar W. Weinberger

Frederick C. Whitman

James Day
Vice President and General Manager

All Channel 9 programs are also seen on
the following translators: Channel 80 serv
ing Contra Costa County; Channel 72 serv
ing Monterey County; Channel 76 serving
Santa Clara County.

MARCH 66

Bill Everson is a San Francisco poet. He is also Brother Antoninus, a
Dominican monk. His presence on our cover is neither incidental nor
coincidental — since he is, by dint of his standing as one of the major
figures in contemporary American poetry, one of the subjects of
U.S.A.: Poetry, a new grouping in N.E.T.'s 41-week sweep of the
arts in America.

Of the poetry segment, beginning on March 1 and comprising 12 pro
grams in all (5 in March, 7 later), 10 are being produced by the
KQED Film Unit under contract to National Educational Television.
Directed by KQED's Richard Moore, the Film Unit visited eight im
portant poets in and around San Francisco to produce four of the five
programs to be seen here this month. The unit is now in the East for
the further filming which will fulfill its N.E.T. contract. We commend
the result to your viewing.

(It should be noted here that this is the KQED team selected by
N.E.T. to produce the documentary on Poland seen on Channel 9 last
fall.)

The lesson is clear. We have infinite programming riches in our area
- and KQED has staff with superior skills. N.E.T. can pay for such
skills. With sufficient funds from you, KQED, too, can use some of
these, its own, creative energies for local television of equally am
bitious purpose and content — in-studio and on-location productions
with specific meaning for the Bay region audience.

"Under Milk Wood" (March 13, 19) is another KQED March event
with significance beyond the fact of its television premiere. Dylan
Thomas' poetic evocation of a day in the life of a small Welsh town
debuts Sunday Showcase, a three-month series produced by WNDT,
New York, under a $250,000 grant from the Bristol-Myers Company.

The series is remarkable in that it will present three full-length
dramas, three programs in association with Lincoln Center, three pro
grams on the fine arts, and three symposia on topics relating to both
the fine and performing arts.

The grant, too, is remarkable — not only for its generosity, but also
because it was awarded to a single station. With this corporate gift,
Bristol-Myers has temporarily freed the New York ETV station from
the bogeyman of budget — enabling it to give its audience and many
audiences around the nation some of the unique cultural advantages
currently available in metropolitan New York.

Again, the conclusion seems clear. To the community support which
permits KQED to increase its worth to the community, the corporate
grant — exemplified here by Bristol-Myers' enlightened underwriting
of Sunday Showcase — is the challenge to our channel to fully
utilize, and share with the nation, the unnumbered "unique-ities" of
the Bay Area and the West.

We invite your patronage.

Cover photograph by Ernest Lowe

MARCH 1966

KQED's daytime schedule of

INSTRUCTIONAL TELEVISION

appears on the back cover.

TUESDAY. March 1

12:00 SING HI SING LO . . . Musical entertain
ment for small fry, in a preview of today's
5:30 p.m. program.

12:15 THE FRIENDLY GIANT . . . stomps in for
an advance showing of his 5:45 p.m. pro
gram. (All of KQED's noon half-hour pro
gramming for children is presented with
the financial assistance of the Junior League
of Oakland.)

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Museum Open
House — KQED's half-hour for the ladies
brings a different subject to each of mi
lady's week-day luncheon breaks. Tuesday's
topic is fine art — discussed in advance of
the regular Museum Open House showing at
10 p.m. Thursdays.

4:00 INTERNATIONAL MAGAZINE . . . Preview of
Friday's 7:30 p.m. program.

5:00 WHAT'S NEW ... Ti-Jean in the Land of
Iron — The adventures of a French-Canadian
boy whose exploits out-do even those of
Paul Bunyan. (February 28 reshowing.)

5:30 SING HI SING LO (KQED) . . . Co-operative
Work in the South— Adding to her musical
vignettes of American folklore, songstress
Bash Kennett uses story and song to recall
the neighborliness of people in the old
South.

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT . . . More friendly
than frightening, Robert Homme towers over
his tiny puppet friends, Rusty and Jerome.
Today they read A Tree is Nice and sing
"If All the Seas Were One Sea."

6:00 WHArs NEW ... Angotee— The story of a
young Eskimo's transition from playful boy
to adult seal-hunter.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Suite from "Der

Rosenkavalier" by Richard Strauss. Josef
Krips conducts the Philharmonia.

7:00 AN ATHEIST SPEAKS (KQEO) ... As follow
up to last November's America's Crises pro
gram 'The Religious Revolution and the
Void," Robert H. Scott of Saratoga has re

quested time to give the atheist's point
of view — since almost all contemporary
American philosophies but his were studied
in the N.ET. documentary. Mr. Scott speaks
of his beliefs and the roots of atheism.

7:30 WHERE IS JIM CROW? (KQED) . . . Guest is
Lena Home. (February 16 reshowing)

8:00 CONCERT (KQED) . . . Ludwig Olshansky,
pianist.

Four Impromptus, Opus 90 Schubert

Sonata in B Flat Minor, Opus 35 Chopin

9:00 OPEN END ... Menopause— Straight talk
sorts the fiction from the facts about the
middle-aged change which proves a blight
to many normally blithe-spirited females.
David Susskind's guests are: Dr. Robert
Greenblatt, chairman of the Department of
Endocrinology, Medical School of Georgia;
Dr. Robert Kistner, Harvard Medical School;
Dr. Edmund Noyack, Johns Hopkins Univer
sity; and Madeline Gray, a patient who uses
the controversial estrogen. Open End is pre
sented with the alternate-week financial as
sistance of the Jenkel-Davidson Optical Com
pany and Gump's.

10:00 U.S.A.: POETS . . . William Carlos Williams

— The life of the late Pulitzer Prize-winning
poet and physician is recreated in a visit
to his home town of Rutherford, New Jer
sey — where his son now practices medicine
in his father's office. The physical and emo
tional environment from which Williams'
poetry sprang is further explored through
selected letters, poems and his autobiog
raphy, read by actor Arthur Hill. First of
five March programs on contemporary Amer
ican poets. (ReshownVThursday, 4 p.m.)

10:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE . . . Motivating
the Salesman— KQED's television classroom
for the executive continues, under the tute
lage of Edward Bursk, with tonight's dis
cussion of "incentive plans" for the sales
man. Suggestions from Herbert M. Cleaves,
executive vice president of Chase Manhattan
Bank, and Winston Mergott, vice president
and general sales manager, Liberty Mutual
Insurance Company.

WEDNESDAY, March 2

12:00 ART STUDIO
12:15 SING HI SING LO

Lunchtime previews.

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Language in Action
— Semanticist S. I. Hayakawa warns against
advertising that promotes "pathological re
actions to words and other symbols."

4:00 FOLK GUITAR . . . Laura Weber sings "Span
ish is a Loving Tongue" and teaches scales to
begining guitarists, in a repeat of her Feb
ruary 28 lesson.

4:30 THE SCOTCH GARDENER (KQED) . . . Viewer

Mail — Answers from Jim Kerr. (February 25
reshowing.)

5:00 WHAT'S NEW ... Throughout the month,
each 5 p.m. What's New repeats the pre
vious day's 6 p.m. program.

The late William Carlos Williams, first of the gath
ering of poets on U.S.A.: Poetry . . . March 1, 10
p.m., March 3, 4 p.m.

5:30 ART STUDIO (KQED) . . . Weaving— Arts and
crafts for the 8 to 12 year old with an ar
tistic bent — taught by Linda Schmid of the
Athenian School faculty.

5:45 SING HI SING LO (KQED) . . . Forest Fire-
seen on film and narrated by Bash Kennett.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW . . . Honey Bees and Pollina
tion — A close-up of the life of the hive.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Vivaldi's Concert!
in F Major and in D Major. I Solisti Veneti.

7:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . Aquarium— A guid
ed tour of San Francisco's Steinhart Aquar
ium with curator Dr. Earl S. Herald reveals
the highly skilled scientific knowledge neces
sary for the proper display of aquatic life.
David Perlman of the San Francisco Chron
icle gives his weekly science report. Science
in Action is presented with the alternate-
week financial assistance of P.G. &E. and
Wells Fargo Bank.

7:30 GREAT DECISIONS . . . Sub-Saharan Africa
—The fourth of eight Great Decisions forums
on key foreign policy topics (presented by
N.E.T. in conjunction with the annual Great
Decisions discussion meetings throughout
the country) considers the post-independ
ence period of sub-Saharan Africa — the re
gion's prospects for economic growth, its
role in international affairs, Communist pen
etration, and U.S. policies toward the area.
(Reshown Friday, 4:30 p.m.)

8:00 WHERE IS JIM CROW? (KQED). . .Gains and
losses in the civil rights arena totted up by
Buzz Anderson and his guests. (Reshown
Friday evening.)

8:30 TURN OF THE CENTURY . . . Pastime Pa
rade — Life in the 1890's— humorously re
called by Max Morath's honky-tonk piano
and vaudeville talents.

9:00 WORLD PRESS (KQED) . . . International
press reaction to the week's big news, ana
lyzed by Channel 9's panel of political sci
ence experts. The weekly report is moderat
ed by San Francisco Supervisor Roger Boas
and presented with the financial assistance
of the San Francisco Examiner and the
Crown Zellerbach Foundation.

10:00 (SPECIAL) CHINA: THE AWAKENED GIANT
(II) ... The Reshaping of Chinese Society-
Second of two discussions videotaped at a
four day meeting in Chicago last month.
Tonight's hour-long program probes the rev
olutionary evolution of a new China. Francis
L. K. Hsu of Northwestern University chairs
the panel of experts: British anthropologist
Jan Myrdal and Franz Schurmann, Center
for Chinese Study, U.C. at Berkeley. (Re-
shown Saturday, 8 p.m.

THURSDAY. March 3

12:00 ONCE UPON A DAY ... Preview of today's
5:30 p.m. program.

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE ... The French Chef-
Preview of today's 8:30 p.m. program.

4:00 U.S.A.: POETRY . . . William Carlos Williams
— March 1 reshowing.

4:30 AUTO MECHANICS

7 p.m. program.

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

Preview of today's

The concert setting is Long Island's Old Westbury
Gardens; the soprano, Elisabeth Schwarzkopf . . .
March 4, 8:30 p.m., March 6, 9:45 p.m.

5:30 ONCE UPON A DAY ... Rhythms for the
pre-schooler. The auspices are Charity Bai
ley's.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... Log Drive— Film and song
follow the spring journey of the logs down
river to the sawmill.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Swan Lake Ballet
Suite by Tchaikowsky. The Philadelphia Or
chestra, Eugene Ormandy conducting.

7:00 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Engine Cooling Sys
tem — Toward better understanding of the
mysteries of the family car, Richard Pinette,
auto mechanics teacher at Berlin High
School, N.Y., continues his series of 10 auto

mechanics lessons for the layman. This third
lesson explains the engine cooling system
and how to simmer down overheated en
gines.

7:30 THE NEW COMERS (KQED) ... Law and En
forcement: Part I— Billy-club wielder, bum
bling cop, or respected symbol of authority?
Guided by host Buzz Anderson, KQED's
young talkers discuss how today's teens
look at representatives of the law and the
rules they enforce. (Reshown Friday, 4 p.m.)

8:00 U.S.A.: ARTISTS . . . Jim Dine — From pas
toral to pop, the transition of American art
in the last two decades is studied in five
programs on the American painier and
sculptor. Not classifying himself among the
Pop artists, yet working with them, Jim Dine
uses his art to comment on familiar objects.
In this first program on the artist, U.S.A.
goes to a Happening with Dine.

8:30 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . More About Potatoes

— That most versatile vegetable, the potato,
takes on two new personalities at the hands
of Julia Child. Mashed potatoes and egg
yolks are combined for elegant and decora
tive Pommes Duchesse; the sturdy "cake"
of Pommes Anna blends with a hearty chop
or steak dinner. Presented each week with
the financial assistance of Hills Bros. Coffee
of San Francisco.

9:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA (KQED) . . . California's
Taxes in 1966 — California legislators give
their views on proposed tax legislation. Cas
par Weinberger moderates the panel. Pre
sented with the financial assistance of the
San Francisco Examiner. (Reshown Sunday,
7 p.m.)

10:00 MUSEUM OPEN HOUSE . . . Painters and
Pioneers — The Boston Museum of Fine Arts
opens its doors weekly to the inspection of
Russell Connor. This evening a guest, Mi
chael Tulysewski, joins the museum tour to
enhance the visual record of pioneer paint
ers with songs of the sea and plains.

10:30 OPINION IN THE CAPITAL . . . Mark Evans
on the Washington beat — interviewing the
men who make the news.

FRIDAY. March 4

11:30 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . March 2 reshowing

12:00 ART STUDIO

12:15 THE FRIENDLY GIANT

Lunchtime previews

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Casals Master Class

— Pablo Casals, master of the cello, imparts

to University of California student cellists
rare insight into the discipline of music.
This afternoon's guest is John Graham of
U.C. faculty, who performs Bach's Sonata
No. 3 in G Minor for viola da gamba.

4:00 THE NEW COMERS . . . March 3 reshowing.
4:30 GREAT DECISIONS . . . March 2 reshowing.
5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 ART STUDIO (KQED) . . . More Weaving-
Linda Schmid at the loom concludes six les
sons on the techniques of weaving.

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT . . . Song of the Pine
Tree Forest — Friendly and friends make up
a song to go with the book.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... Islands of the Frozen Sea

— From the Queen Elizabeth Islands at the
roof of the world, a story on life as far
north as it is lived.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Scenes from Le
Baiser de la Fee (The Fairy's Kiss) by Stra
vinsky.

7:00 THE SCOTCH GARDENER (KQED) . . . Fuch
sias — Channel 9's gardening expert Jim Kerr
is host to amateur fuchsia grower Tom Oli
ver, who is exceptionally wise in the ways
of pruning and feeding the exotic flower.
(Reshown Wednesday, 4:30 p.m.)

7:30 (MONTHLY SPECIAL) INTERNATIONAL MAG
AZINE . . . This month the reports of foreign
correspondents come from eastern Europe,
the Middle East, South Africa and England,
and include stories both serious and light.
Covered are: the South African press; the
views of Polish students and journalists; life
in Bahrein; foreign workers in West Germany;
and the long-haired craze of Great Britain's
young men. David Culhane, chief of the
Baltimore Sun's London bureau, edits the
stories. (February 28 reshowing.)

8:30 (MUSIC) ELISABETH SCHWARZKOPF ... An

intimate musical soiree is graciously con
ducted by one of the world's greatest vocal
artists. Recorded in the old-world atmo
sphere of the Phipps Estate on Long Island,
Miss Schwarzkopf's recital includes classical
and folk music, with a range of material
that displays both her noted soprano and
her ability as an interpreter of song. Be
ginning with "Voi che sapete" from Mozart's
Le Nozze di Figaro, she also sings Schubert,
Brahms, Wolf and Strauss. Three folk songs
conclude the program. (Reshown Sunday)

10:00 WORLD HISTORY . . . America's Westward
Expansion— The scene shifts— from post-
revolutionary France to the wild frontier of
North America where the dreams of gold
miners, farmers and cattlemen were only
partly dashed by Mexican and Indian resist
ance.

SATURDAY. March 5

5:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE . . . Advance
showing of Tuesday's 10:30 p.m. program.

6:00 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX (II) ... 15 lessons
for the intermediate bridge player begin
with an explanation of proper leads when
the play is in suit. (Reshown Sunday, 6:30)

6:30 KOLTANOWSKI ON CHESS . . . February 28
reshowing.

7:00 FILMS A LA CARTE ... The Mountains Are
Smoking — A film idyll among the forests,
streams and majestic peaks of Great Smoky
Mountain National Park.

7:30 BOOK BEAT . . . Alex Haley— The mysticism
of Malcolm X is discussed by his biographer
in conversation with Robert Cromie of the
Chicago Tribune.

8:00 (SPECIAL) CHINA THE AWAKENED GIANT
(II) ... The Reshaping of Chinese Society —

March 2 reshowing.

9:00 THE OPEN MIND . . . U.S. Legislature: Elect
ed for Four Years?— Eric Goldman and a
panel of politicos ponder President John
son's recommendation that the traditional
two year term of Congressmen be doubled.

SUNDAY. March 6

5:00 PARLONS FRANCAIS . . . Madame Anne
Slack teaches beginning French— adding fla
vor to her lessons with pictures and her
own insight into life in France.

9:30 WHERE IS JIM CROW?

showing.

March 2 re-

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SERVING CALIFORNIA SINCE 1851

5:30 UNA AVENTURA ESPANOLA . . . Basic Span
ish lessons, spiced by Senorita Yvette del
Prado.

6:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . Aquarium— March
2 reshowing.

6:30 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX ... March 5 re-
showing.

7:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA . . . March 3 reshowing.

8:00 (DRAMA) TWELFTH NIGHT ... In comic
Comedia dell' Arte style, clowns, masquer
ades and mistaken identity are merrily min
gled by Shakespeare's classic romp. This
slightly abbreviated version of the Bard's
work was produced by Associated-Rediffu-
sion, Ltd.

7:00 FOLK GUITAR (KQED) . . . Laura Weber
holds her own small hoot with guest Mal-
vina Reynolds. She also teaches "Hushabye
Don't You Cry" and introduces F as a bar
chord. Lesson #19 in a series for the be
ginning guitarist. (Reshown Wednesday)

7:30 ANTIQUES . . . Wooden Primitives— Cheese
basket and curd breaker, popcorn popper
and foot warmer — antique objects made of
wood, displayed and commented on by
George Michael.

8:00 KOLTANOWSKI ON CHESS (KQED) ... In

his 23rd chess lesson, Koltanowski concen
trates on the beginner. Counseling the nov
ice to castle early with certain opening
moves, he also describes the Max Lange
opening and defense. (Reshown Saturday,
6:30 p.m.)

9:30 A FEW WORDS ABOUT CHANNEL 9 ... The
state of the station and viewers' views of
it, reported by general manager James Day.
(Reshown Monday evening.)

9:45 (MUSIC) ELISABETH SCHWARZKOPF . . .

March 4 reshowing.

MONDAY. March 7

12:00 CHILDREN'S FAIR . . . Preview of today's
5:30 p.m. program.

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Children Growing-
Each Monday Dr. Maria Piers and Miss Lee
Wilcox discuss the problems and joys of
child-raising — this afternoon considering the
different worlds and persons confronted by
the first grader.

4:00 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . Preview of Thurs
day's 8:30 p.m. program.

4:30 U.S.A.: ARTISTS
8 p.m. program.

. Preview of Thursday's

5:00 WHAT'S NEW ... Islands of the Frozen Sea

— Throughout the month, each Monday's 5
p.m. Whafs New repeats the previous Fri
day's 6 p.m. program.

5:30 CHILDREN'S FAIR ... A fairy-tale princess
visits the fair.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... Beaver Dam— The story
of some small boys' loyalty to a resourceful
beaver friend; Street to the World— A poetic
study of the Montreal docks.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Ponchielli: Quar
tet in B-Flat Major for Winds With Piano
Accompaniment.

6:45 A FEW WORDS ABOUT CHANNEL 9 ...

Throughout the month this is a reshowing
of James Day's Sunday evening KQED report.

8:30 THE SUEZ AFFAIR . . . This public affairs
special will be reshown tomorrow at 4 and
Friday at 7:30 p.m.

9:30 CITY BEAT: MEL WAX (KQED) ... The San
Francisco Chronicle's urban affairs editor
acts as city reporter-at-large.

9:50 RADENZEL REPORTS (KQED) . . . You've
asked — and he's back. Ed Radenzel, foreign
news editor of the Chronicle, returns to
Channel 9's Monday evening screen with a
10 minute weekly round-up of national and
international news.

10:00 IF YOU DON'T DRINK, THE PRICE OF WINE
IS OF NO INTEREST (KQED) ... A gather
ing of artistic personalities promises creative
climate for tonight's after-dinner talk.
Turned on by Japanese cuisine from Nikko
Sukiyaki, James Day-san's guests are: nov
elist and playwright Martin Flavin; Francisco
de Hoya, musician and World Press reporter
of Latin American news coverage; and Rob
ert Erickson, composer and chairman of the
Composition Department, San Francisco Con
servatory of Music.

11:00 SOVIET PRESS THIS WEEK . . . Colette Schul
man surveys leading Soviet newspapers and
periodicals for Russian journalistic views.

TUESDAY. March 8

12:00 SING HI SING LO
12:15 THE FRIENDLY GIANT

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Museum Open House

— Preview of Thursday's 10 p.m. program.

4:00 THE SUEZ AFFAIR . . . March 7 reshowing.

Andy Warhol of Pop art and underground movie
fame is one of the new generation of U.S.A.: Artists
. . . March 7, 4:30 p.m., March 10, 8 p.m.

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 SING HI SING LO (KQED) ... Post Riders-
Stagecoaches and the Pony Express are cele
brated by Bash Kennett's songs.

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT . . . Millions and Mil
lions — of books in Friendly's castle.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... The Living Stone— Eskimo
soapstone carving.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Symphony No. 1

by Robert Helps.

7:00 To be announced

7:30 OPENING NIGHT (KQED) ... The National
Repertory Theatre — Local professional reper
tory is contrasted to the effort of ANTA's
touring National Repertory Theatre by David
Littlejohn's reviews of the three plays cur
rently on view at the Geary: "The Madwom
an of Chaillot," "The Rival," and "The Tro
jan Women."

8:00 CONCERT (KQED) . . . Ako Ito, guitar; Gail
Denny, mandolin and viola; Linda Ashworth
and Thomas Halpin, violins; Marjorie Pres-
cott, cello; Donald Pippin, piano. (By spe
cial arrangement with The Old Spaghetti
Factory)
Quintet in E minor for guitar

and strings Boccherini

Concerto in D minor for piano

and strings Bach

Concerto for mandolin, guitar

and strings Johann Hasse

9:00 OPEN END ... Escape from Terror: Five
Cuban Refugees — Topping adventure fiction
in danger and desperation, the flight of Cu
ban refugees has nonetheless become a
commonplace occurrence. A quintet of Cu
bans who have recently fled their country
talk with David Susskind.

10:00 U.S.A.: POETRY (KQED) . . . Allen Ginsberg
and Lawrence Ferlinghetti — Here are two lo
cal titans whose influence, felt far beyond
the purlieus of their own San Francisco, has
done much to shape contemporary American
poetry. In the first of 10 profiles of Ameri
can poets produced for U.S.A.: Poetry by
the KQED Film Unit, they move among such
familiar San Francisco scenes as the City
Lights Bookstore, talking, reading from their
work — Ginsberg's "The King of May" and
"New York to San Fran," Ferlinghetti's "The
Situation in the West" and "Dog." As pic
turesque as their habitat, they are outspo
ken and controversial — popular poets in the
Vachel Lindsay tradition of engagement with
the world around them.

10:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE ... How Effec
tive Are Mail Order and Telephone Selling?
— Opinions from executives of A.T.&T., Life
magazine, and the Sears, Roebuck cata
logue.

WEDNESDAY, March 9

. Language in Action

has semantics too.

12:00 ART STUDIO
12:15 SING HI SING LO

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . .

— The popular song
Hayakawa elaborates.

4:00 FOLK GUITAR . . . March 7 reshowing.

4:30 THE SCOTCH GARDENER . . . March 4 re-
showing.

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 ART STUDIO (KQED) . . . Drawing Birds.

5:45 SING HI SING LO . . . Fairs and Dramas.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... The Stowaway learns a
lesson about deep-sea fishing; Fishermen
use new techniques in eastern Canada.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Khachaturian's
Piano Concerto. Andre Previn conducts the
Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.

7:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . Crash Research—

The violent but scientific work of traffic
safety research is conducted at U.C.L.A.'s
Institute of Transportation and Traffic Engi
neering. Harry Case of U.C.L.A. shows how
impact studies are made with full-scale
cars. David Perlman reports the scientific
news. (Reshown Friday and Sunday)

7:30 GREAT DECISIONS . . . Russia After Khrush
chev — With film excerpts and narration by
series host David Schoenbrun, the program
explores the political, economic and social
changes that have evolved in Russia since
the October 1964 exit of Premier Khrush
chev. The Russian political game is re
viewed by Wilter Stoessel, Deputy Assistant
Secretary of State for European Affairs. (Re-
shown Friday, 4:30 p.m.)

8:00 WHERE IS JIM CROW? (KQED) . . . Reshown
Friday.

8:30 TURN OF THE CENTURY . . . Music in the

Air— Max Morath builds a dramatic skit
around mechanical pianos.

9:00 WORLD PRESS (KQED)

10:00 (MONTHLY SPECIAL) NEWS IN PERSPEC
TIVE ... To the international news coverage
of World Press, New York Timesmen Lester
Markel, Tom Wicker and Max Frankel add
the American viewpoint with a review and
analysis of this month's news. (Reshown
Saturday, 10:15 p.m.)

THURSDAY. March 10

12:00 ONCE UPON A DAY ... Preview of today's
5:30 p.m. program.

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE ... The French Chef-
Preview of today's 8:30 p.m. program.

4:00 U.SA: POETRY . . . March 8 reshowing.

4:30 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Preview of today's 7
p.m. program.

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 ONCE UPON A DAY

tains the littlest.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... Eskimo Summer; Corral.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Respighi's Feste
Rontane (Roman Festivals). The Los Angeles
Philharmonic Orchestra.

7:00 AUTO MECHANICS . . Application— A film
summary and demonstration of the princi
ples already learned.

, Charity Bailey enter

7:30 THE NEW COMERS (KQED) ... Law and En
forcement: Part II— -Channel 9's teens keep
talking about last week's topic: justice, au
thority and civil disobedience. (Reshown
Friday)

-8:00 U.S.A.: ARTISTS . . . Andy Warhol and Roy

Lichtenstein — explosive forces for Pop and
Op — and two of America's most influential
figures in contemporary art.

8:30 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . Steak Dinner in
Half a Hour— The secret: plan— and keep
notes. Julia Child shows how it's done, pro
ducing a fast and delectable dinner of Pro
vencal garlic soup, flank steak, vegetables,
and molded ice cream with rum and choco
late.

9:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA (KQED) . . . Student
Revolution — Down with the old attitudes —
up with the new, or the different, or the
defiant. So the modern collegian seems to
say about everything from sex to politics.
Representatives from Mills College, the Uni
versity of California at Berkeley, Stanford
University, San Francisco State and the Uni
versity of San Francisco meet with Caspar
Weinberger. Presented with the financial as
sistance of the Associated Students of S.F.
State College.

10:00 MUSEUM OPEN HOUSE ... The Chic of
Arabesque — The sinuous, serpentine line of
I'art nouveau, high fashion at the turn of the
century, soon became too precious to sur
vive.

10:30 OPINION IN THE CAPITAL

March 9 reshowing.

March 10 reshowing.
. March 9 reshowing.

FRIDAY. March 11

11:30 SCIENCE IN ACTION . .

12:00 ART STUDIO

12:15 THE FRIENDLY GIANT

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Casals Master Class.

4:00 THE NEW COMERS . . .

4:30 GREAT DECISIONS . .

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 ART STUDIO . . . Painting Birds.

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT . . . Casey Jones.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... The Pony.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Prokofiev: Sym
phony No. 6 (2nd, 3rd and 4th movements).

7:00 THE SCOTCH GARDENER (KQED) ... Or
chids for the Home — Alex Graham, garden
superintendent for the Blyth Estate, shows
how orchids can be grown in your own
kitchen. (Reshown Wednesday)

7:30 THE SUEZ AFFAIR . . . March 7 reshowing.

SUNDAY, March 13

8:30 (MUSIC) INTOLLERANZA ... A political tract
against intolerance, this experimental opera
calls for electronic music and film and tele
vision sequences as part of the action. It
was written by Arnold Schoenberg's son-in-
law, Luigi Nono, one of Italy's most promi-
net avant-gardists. The Boston Opera Group
performs. (Reshown Sunday, 10 p.m.)

10:00 WHERE IS JIM CROW? . . . March 9 reshow
ing.

10:30 WORLD HISTORY . . . Capitalism, Socialism
and Communism — The industrial revolution
in America produced two new classes —
capitalist and worker. The philosophies that
formed around them created political par
ties still in existence.

SATURDAY. March 12

5:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE . . . Preview of
Tuesday's 10:30 p.m. program.

6:00 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX ... continues last
week's lesson on proper leads. (Reshown
Sunday, 6:30 p.m.)

6:30 KOLTANOWSKI ON CHESS . . . March 7 re
showing.

7:00 FILMS A LA CARTE ... The Enduring Wil
derness — Canada's park conservation pro
gram.

7:30 BOOK BEAT . . . Col. Sally Chesham— The
Salvation Army's militant Sally Chesham is
Robert Cromie's guest for conversation
about her book Born To Battle.

8:00 THE OPEN MIND . . . Flying Saucers— Cigar

shaped or round, glowing or flashing, "un
identified flying objects" differ in the re
ports of every observer — but have remained
constant in the multiplicity of their appear
ances for over a decade. Eric Goldman ex
plores the weird world of outer space with
his guests, each of whom feels he has the
facts to support or deny the saucers' ex
istence.

9:00 (MUSIC) LA SCALA Dl SETA ... A secret
marriage and tangled love matches cause a
confusion that is the ideal setting for the
intricacies of 19th century Italian comic
opera. This production of Rossini, the work
performed by the Philharmonic Orchestra of
Rome under the direction of Franco Ferrara,
was filmed by Cine Lirica Italiana.

5:00 PARLONS FRANCAIS

5:30 UNAAVENTURAESPANOLA

6:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . March 9 reshowing.

6:30 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX ... March 12 re-
showing.

7:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA . . . March 10 reshow
ing.

8:00 (DEBUT) SUNDAY SHOWCASE . . . Under
Milk Wood— Highlight for a weekend eve
ning: a 12-week series devoted to the per
forming and fine arts, beginning this Sunday
with a major work of the Welsh poet, Dylan
Thomas. Written in verse, Under Milk Wood
dramatizes a day in the life of a small Welsh
village; the sunlit streets of the town seem
to come alive with the songs, gossip, hopes
and despair of their inhabitants. This first
presentation on U.S. television of Thomas'
play is performed by the Conservatory The
atre Company under the direction of William
•Ball. The three-month series is being pro
duced by New York City's ETV station WNDT
under a program grant from the Bristol-
Myers Company. (Reshown Saturday, 9 p.m.)

Reston, Va., made a lake to arrest suburban
sprawl — one of America's Crises . . . March 14,
15 and 18.

10:15 NEWS IN PERSPECTIVE

showing.

March 9 re-

A pride of poets, scanned by KQED for U

9:45 A FEW WORDS ABOUT CHANNEL 9 ... Off

the cuff on-camera comment by general
manager James Day.

10:00 (MUSIC) INTOLLERANZA . . . March 11 re-
showing.

MONDAY, March 14

12:00 CHILDREN'S FAIR

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Children Growing-
Insight into a child's struggle to be "him
self."

4:00 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . Preview of Thurs
day's 8:30 p.m. program.

4:30 U.S.A.: ARTISTS . . . Richard Lippold— Pre
view of Thursday's 8 p.m. program.

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 CHILDREN'S FAIR ... A moppet's playland
of puppets, storytellers and less-than-wild
animals.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... Ti Jean Goes West

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC
by Manuel de Falla.

. Fantasia Betica

6:45 A FEW WORDS ABOUT CHANNEL 9

7:00 FOLK GUITAR (KQED) . . . Illustrating the
bar chords built on E and A, Laura Weber
sings "Lonesome Road," "Mine Ma Tov,"
and "De Los Cuatro Muleros." (Reshown
Wednesday)

7:30 ANTIQUES . . . Steinware — Antique codec
tor Baron Frary von Blomberg displays a
unique collection of the earliest German
pottery.

8:00 KOLTANOWSKI ON CHESS (KQED) . . . Some
of the People Some of The Time— The
Chronicle's chess champion tells of a match
between Dr. Lasker and Tarasch for the
world championship — and of loser Tarasch's
subsequent book explaining how he could
have won every game. (Reshown Saturday.)

8:30 AMERICA'S CRISES ... The Rise of New

Towns— N.E.T undertakes a detailed ap
praisal of America's urban dilemma — be
ginning its examination of the troubled city
with a look at the upspringing "planned
communities" designed to distribute the
density and thus lessen the problems of
existing metropolitan areas. (Reshown to
morrow and Friday.)

Ginsberg

Duncan

Antoninus

9:30 CITY BEAT: MEL WAX (KQED) ... The in's
and out's of local politics.

9:50 RADENZEL REPORTS (KQED) ... the nation
and the world.

10:00 IF YOU DON'T DRINK, THE PRICE OF WINE
IS OF NO INTEREST (KQED) ... The de-

lectables from Omar Khayyam's restaurant
provide nourishment for this evening's
guests, preparing them for a lively hour of
conversation. James Day hosts Leon Katz,
playwright, director, and professor of English
and world literature at San Francisco State;
Philip Rhinelander, professor of philosophy
and humanities at Stanford; Rabbi Alvin
Fine; and pediatrician Charles C. Weill.

11:00 SOVIET PRESS THIS WEEK

try ... Tuesdays at 10 p.m., Thursdays at 4.

Ferlinghetti

Whalen

f. McClure

TUESDAY. March 15

12:00 SING HI SING LO
12:15 THE FRIENDLY GIANT

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Museum Open
House — Preview of Thursday 10 p.m.

4:00 AMERICA'S CRISES . . . The Rise of New
Towns — March 14 reshowing.

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 SING HI SING LO (KQED) . . . Early Houses.

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT ... Very Little Boy.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... Life in the Woodlot and
How to Build an Igloo.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Selections from
Dufay's Missa "I'Homme Arme." The Berke
ley Chamber Singers, conducted by Alden
Gilchrist.

7:00 ESKIMO ART AND LEGEND (I) (KQED) . . .

This two-part study of Eskimo art begins
with an exhibition of several varieties of folk
art originally assembled and loaned to KQED
by the Lytton Center, Palo Alto. Included are
soapstone carvings, excellent examples of
prints made by the Eskimos of Cape Dorset
and a rare collection of ancient ivory hex car
vings. Mrs. Lillian Jaffe, expert on Canadian
Eskimo art, and KQED'S music director Bill
Triest comment on the collection.

7:30 OPENING NIGHT (KQED) . . . Midsummer
Night's Dream — KQED's drama reviewer Da
vid Littlejohn gives his opening night im
pressions of the final Actor's Workshop pro
duction for the current subscription season.
Shakespeare's comedy receives unusual dec
orative treatment at the hands of Jim Dine,
New York pop artist (U.S.A. March 3) who
designed the sets.

8:00 CONCERT (KQED) . . . Marcella DeCray, harp.

Variations on a Swiss Air Beethoven

Pastorale, Theme and Variations Handel

Prelude in C Prokofiev

Improvisations George Mathias

Sarabanda e Toccata Nino Rota

Sonata for Harp Ernst Krenek

9:00 OPEN END ... Woman's Worst Enemy-
Five Swinging Hairdressers — Some very
frank gentlemen give an inside report a
la Count Marco, on feminine foibles. David
Susskind encourages the gossip.

10:00 U.S.A.: POETRY . . . Robert Duncan and John
Wieners — two San Francisco poets who ex
emplify the new spirit of romance in con
temporary poetry. The KQED Film Unit visit
ed Robert Duncan's home to view the en
vironment which so influences his poetry,
and to film the leader in the so-called
Berkeley Renaissance as he reads "The Ar
chitecture" from a work in progress and
excerpts from "A Biographical Note" and
"A Statement on Poetics." John Wieners
reads amid the debris of the San Francisco's
old Hotel Wentley: "A Poem for Painters"
from the "Hotel Wentley Poems," "Co
caine," and an excerpt from a current prose
project. (Reshown Thursday.)

10:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE ... The Impact
of Automation on Marketing— All of tonight's
guests agree that the trouble with automa
tion is that it can't be made "moron proof."
Appearing are: Donald C. Burnham, a West
inghouse Electric executive; John Diebold,
president of The Diebold Group, Inc.; and
Peter Drucker, author and consultant.

The engravings of Kenojuak, a
Cape Dorset Eskimo woman,
are among those admired by
Eskimo Art and Legend . . .
March 15 and 22, 7 p.m.

WEDNESDAY. March 16

12:00 ART STUDIO
12:15 SING HI SING LO

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Language in Action
— The literal and emotional aspects of words
are studied by Dr. Hayakawa.

4:00 FOLK GUITAR . . . March 14 reshowing

4:30 THE SCOTCH GARDENER . . . March 11 re
showing.

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 ART STUDIO (KQED) . . . Kites.

5:45 SING HI SING LO (KQED) ... The Shake-
maker.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW
for Survival.

. The Salmon's Struggle

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Sibelius' Sym
phony No. 5 in E Hat, Op. 82.

7:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . Criminalistics—

Science and crime are closely linked at the
University of California's Department of
Criminalistics. Professor Paul Kirk leads a
tour of the laboratories that produce evi
dence for the courts. David Perlman reports
the scientific news. (Reshown Friday and
Sunday)

7:30 GREAT DECISIONS . . . Resurgent Japan-
Film shots document Japan's transition from
a defeated nation to one of the world's most
prosperous countries. Host David Schoen-
brun discusses Japan's future with Japanese
Ambassador to the United States Ryuji Take-
uchi. (Reshown Friday).

8:00 WHERE IS JIM CROW? (KQED)

8:30 TURN OF THE CENTURY ... The Big City-
Original lantern slides and dramatic vi
gnettes illustrate the mass urban migration
of the early 1900's.

9:00 WORLD PRESS (KQED)

10:00 (SPECIAL) OIL, COFFEE AND DEMOCRACY

. . . How do our international commercial
transactions affect our national policies —
the world's attitude to us? Explored in this
hour, the dichotomies of the relationship
between economics and policy. (Reshown
Saturday, 10:30 p.m.)

THURSDAY, March 17

12:00 ONCE UPON A DAY

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE ... The French Chef-
Preview of today's 8:30 p.m. program.

4:00 U.SA: POETRY . . . March 15 reshowing.

4:30 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Preview of today's
7 p.m. program.

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 ONCE UPON A DAY ... Charity Bailey.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... Riches of the Earth and
The Shepherd.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Arias from Doni
zetti operas, sung by Montserrat Caballe.

7:00 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Wheel Alignment and
Balance — A demonstration to promote bet
ter tire wear. Richard Pinette is mechanic-
on-duty.

7:30 THE NEW COMERS (KQED) . . . Death— Often

a difficult subject for the younger generation
to grasp, death receives some mature con
templation by Channel 9 teens. Buzz Ander
son is presiding adult. (Reshown Friday)

8:00 U.S.A.: ARTISTS ... The Sun and Richard
Lippold — Sun and light are caught casting
reflections on landscapes, people and sea —
as metaphors for the work of sculpture Rich
ard Lippold. Shots of the artist in his studio
and of his works, including his "Sun" at the
New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art,
are interspersed in the photographic study
of objects and atmosphere that inspire Lip-
pold's sculpture.

8:30 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . The Endive Show-
Tender Belgian endive, with a taste as ap
petizing as its looks, lends itself to special
preparations in butter, wine or cream. Julia
Child demonstrates the making of endives
a la meuniere, flamande. Normande, and
au Madere.

9:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA (KQED) ... New Bay
Bridge Prospect: A Southern Crossing—Cas
par Weinberger gathers the experts for de
bate. Presented with the financial assistance
of the San Francisco Examiner. (Reshown
Sunday)

10:00 MUSEUM OPEN HOUSE ... The Woman in
the Studio — Though not as prominent as
her male counterpart, the woman artist is
well represented at Boston's Museum of
Fine Art.

10:30 OPINION IN THE CAPITAL

FRIDAY. March 18

11:30 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . March 16 reshow
ing.

12:00 ART STUDIO

12:15 THE FRIENDLY GIANT

12:30

4:00
4:30
5:00
5:30
5:45

6:00
6:30
7:00

7:30

AT NOON ON NINE . . . Casals' Master Class
—Casals' students perform Bach: Suite
Number 3 in C Major and Suite Number 1
in G Major for unaccompanied cello.

THE NEW COMERS . . . March 17 reshowing.
GREAT DECISIONS . . . March 16 reshowing.
WHAT'S NEW
ART STUDIO... Kites.

THE FRIENDLY GIANT
Name?

Whafs Your

WHAT'S NEW . . . Caribou Hunters and Point
Pelee.

PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Folk Song, "The
Peacock."

THE SCOTCH GARDENER (KQED) . . . Home
Grown Herbs — for home cooking suggested
by Jim Kerr. (Reshown Wednesday)

AMERICA'S CRISES ... The Rise of New

Towns— March 14 reshowing.

8:30 (DRAMA) YES IS FOR A VERY YOUNG MAN

... The World War II occupation of France
is the setting for Gertrude Stein's play of
family relationships and strained loyalties.
David Wheeler directs the Theatre Company
of Boston, with Paul Benedict as Henri,
Bronia Stefan playing Constance, Burris de
Banning as Ferdinand and Ann Richards as
Denise. (Reshown Sunday, 10 p.m.)

FRENCH KNIVES

As you know, we are currently of
fering a set of three professional-
quality French knives as a premi
um gift only to those people join
ing the station as new members
giving $25 or more. In response to
inquiries from our present mem
bers who have expressed an inter
est in purchasing a set of these
knives, we have arranged to make
them available at a special price of
$11.50 to those interested. (The
retail price is $18.00.) Send a
check to "Knives," KQED, 525
Fourth Street, San Francisco.

10:15 WHERE IS JIM CROW? (KQED)

10:45 WORLD HISTORY ... The Scramble For
Africa — The Dark Continent lured many
European countries to colonization at the
end of the 19th century.

SATURDAY. March 19

5:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE . . . Preview of
Tuesday's 10:30 p.m. program.

6:00 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX ... How to take
tricks when the contract is in suit. (Reshown
Sunday)

6:30 KOLTANOWSKI ON CHESS . . . March 14 re
showing.

7:00 FILMS A LA CARTE . . . White Throat— Can

ada's white-throated sparrow filmed in the
Algonquin forest.

7:30 BOOK BEAT . . . Meyer Levin— and his new
book Stronghold, receive the attention of
Robert Cromie.

8:00 THE OPEN MIND . .

and titillating, under
Goldman.

Discussion, topical
the aegis of Eric

9:00 (DEBUT) SUNDAY SHOWCASE . . . Under
Milk Wood— March 12 reshowing.

10:30 (SPECIAL) OIL, COFFEE AND DEMOCRACY

. . . March 16 reshowing.

SUNDAY. March 20

5:00 PARLONS FRANCAIS

5:30 UNAAVENTURAESPANOLA

6:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . March 16 reshowing.

6:30 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX ... March 19 re
showing.

7:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA ... March 17 reshowing.

8:00 SUNDAY SHOWCASE . . . Lincoln Center Spe
cial—As we go to press, we're not entirely
sure which of the five Lincoln Center per
forming groups will entertain you this eve
ning. Or how how long the performance will
be. We can only suggest that you dial 9 for
what we know will be good viewing. (And
the reshowing will be next Saturday, March
26, 9 p.m.)

9:45 A FEW WORDS ABOUT CHANNEL 9 . . The

starting time is approximate — which also
applies to . . .

10:00 (DRAMA) YES IS FOR A VERY YOUNG MAN

. . . March 18 reshowing.

MONDAY. March 21

12:00 CHILDREN'S FAIR
12:30

4:00
4:30

5:00
5:30
6:00

6:30

AT NOON ON NINE . . . Children Growing—

The candid questions of four and five year
olds are partly answered by Dr. Maria Piers.

THE FRENCH CHEF . . . Preview of Thurs-
day's 8:30 p.m. program.

Preview of Thursday's

U.S.A.: ARTISTS .

8 p.m. program.

WHAT'S NEW
CHILDREN'S FAIR

WHAT'S NEW . . . Carpenters of the Forest
and The Land of the Long Day.

PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Dances from Italian
opera.

6:45 A FEW WORDS ABOUT CHANNEL 9

7:00 FOLK GUITAR (KQED) . . . Laura Weber
teaches the Folk Guitar theme song — "Free
dom Calling" by Phil Ochs. (Reshown
Wednesday)

7:30 ANTIQUES . . . Clocks— Among them, a nov
el antique timepiece made of a cast iron
dog whose ears flop with each tick.

8:00 KOLTANOWSKI ON CHESS ... The Russian
Bears — All about Russian chess players, by
far the leaders in the International Chess
Federation. (Reshown Saturday)

8:30 (DEBUT) DOLLARS AND SENSE . . . Caveat
emptor — and so that the buyer may be
wary N.E.T. initiates a monthly study of the
American marketplace to inform and guide
the consumer who wants his money's worth.
Over-the-counter drugs are the subject of
this first half-hour. Among those appearing
is Dr. William N. O'Brien, assistant professor
at Yale and medical advisor to Consumers
Union — whose findings were made available
to N.E.T. for this series. Dr. O'Brien dis
cusses misrepresentation among some
brand-name drugs. Originally scheduled for
February. (Reshown tomorrow and Friday.)

9:00 IN MY OPINION . . . Leading newspaper col
umnists take to the air to air their views on
a variety of subjects. (Reshown tomorrow
and Friday)

9:30 CITY BEAT: MEL WAX (KQED)
9:50 RADENZEL REPORTS (KQED)

10:00 IF YOU DON'T DRINK THE PRICE OF WINE
IS OF NO INTEREST (KQED) ... Dr. Russel
Lee and Dr. Gerald Feigen play a return en
gagement at the table of host James Day.
They are joined in conversation by Robert
Commanday, S.F. Chronicle music critic and
choral director of the Oakland Symphony
Orchestra. Rolf's Since 1960 is the restau
rant with the food for thought.

11:00 SOVIET PRESS THIS WEEK

TUESDAY. March 22

12:00 SING HI SING LO
12:15 THE FRIENDLY GIANT

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Museum Open House

—Advance showing of Thursday's 10 p.m.
program.

4:00 (DEBUT) DOLLARS AND SENSE . . . March
21 reshowing.

4:30 IN MY OPINION . . . March 21 reshowing
5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 SING HI SING LO (KQED) . . . Pirates Off
Our Coast

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT . . . Little Wild Horses.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... The Changing Forest and
Land of the Long Day.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Symphony No. 4

by David Diamond.

7:00 ESKIMO ART AND LEGEND (Part II) (KQED)

. . . The Living Stone — In a sequel to last
week's studio study of Eskimo art, a Cana
dian Film Board production depicts the crea
tion of Eskimo stone carvings. Each carving
represents a tale or religious symbol con
nected with the summer search for food
from the sea — and each can be the subject
of an evening's storytelling during the long
northern winter.

7:30 ELLIOT NORTON ON "THE DEPUTY" ... In

a consideration of the Boston production of
Rolf Hochhuth's controversial "anti-Catholic"
drama "The Deputy," Boston drama critic
Elliott Norton quizzes director and actors on
their opinions about the play's justice and
their feelings toward Pope Pius XII.

8:00 CONCERT (KQED) ... The Youth Chamber
Orchestra of the Oakland Symphony, Robert
Hughes, conductor. Soloists for this concert
are: Thomas Halpin, violin; Amy Jusian,
piano; Joseph Halpin, contrabass; Vahan
Toolajian, bass (guest artist).
Suite for Violin, Piano and
Small Orchestra Lou Harrison

Marcella DeCray plays Beethoven, Prokofiev, Krenek
and Handel on Concert . . . March 15, 8 p.m.

Per Questa Bella Mano,

K. 612 (Concert aria for bass voice

and orchestra with contrabass

obbligato) Mozart

Variaciones Concertantes Ginastera

9:00 OPEN END

10:00 U.S.A.: POETRY ... Gary Snyder and Philip
Whalen — poets with an Oriental orientation.
Eight years spent in Japan are reflected in
Gary Snyder's readings, among which are:
"Hay for the Horses," "Above Pate Valley"
and "The Market." His friend Whalen is
seen in the courtyard of the California Pal
ace of the Legion of Honor in San Francisco
reading "Homage to Rodin," "A Very Com
plicated Way of Saying Appearances De
ceive" and the prose piece "Since You Ask
Me." Third U.S.A.: Poetry production by the
KQED Film Unit. (Reshown Thursday)

10:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE . . . Loosening
the Grip on Strangled Profits — From his
guests, Edward Bursk learns that com
petition and the spiralling cost of labor have
created a profit squeeze. The experts offer
suggestions to "loosen the grip."

WEDNESDAY, March 23

12:00 ART STUDIO
12:15 SING HI SING LO

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Language in Action
— The history of social organization through
communication.

4:00 FOLK GUITAR . . . March 21 reshowing.

4:30 THE SCOTCH GARDENER . . . March 18 re-
showing.

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 ART STUDIO (KQED) . . . Kites.

5:45 SING HI SING LO (KQED) . . . Indian Com.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... The Chairmaker and the
Boys and Land of the Long Day.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Dvorak's Slavonic
Dances for piano four hands.

7:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . Electron Micro
scopes — A single cell is enlarged to the size
of a room in the fantastic science of super-
magnification. James Harvey McAlear, head
of the department of microscopy, U.C.,
Berkeley, tours the labs of his department.
David Perlman reports the scientific news.
(Reshown Friday and Sunday)

7:30 GREAT DECISIONS . . . Latin America— Fol
lowing an analytical enumeration of the
myriad internal problems bedeviling Latin
American nations, Senator Robert Kennedy
and David Schoenbrun talk of U.S. policy as
it affects and is affected by the inter-Amer
ican relationship. (Reshown Friday)

8:00 WHERE IS JIM CROW? (KQED)

8:30 TURN OF THE CENTURY . . . Yesterday's
Homework — in the days when learning and
memorization were one and the same.

9:00 WORLD PRESS (KQED)

10:00 INTERTEL ... Men in Black— A changing
world confronts the tradition-steeped Roman
Catholic priesthood. Intertel examines the
new paths and problems faced by the men
in black in England and Ireland. Originally
scheduled for February. (Reshown Saturday,
10:30 p.m.)

THURSDAY. March 24

12:00 ONCE UPON A DAY

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE ... The French Chef-
Preview of today's 8:30 p.m. program.

4:00 U.S.A.: POETS . . . March 22 reshowing.

4:30 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Preview of today's
7 p.m. program.

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 ONCE UPON A DAY ... Charity Bailey.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... The St Lawrence Seaway
and Land of the Long Day.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Concerto Grosso
No. 1 by Ernest Bloch.

7:00 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Brake System— A

lesson that could be life-saving, taught by
Richard Pinette.

7:30 THE NEW COMERS (KQED) . . . Advertising

— How much can the craze for granny
dresses and tight pants be attributed to ad
vertising? The panel plumbs teenage buying
habits. (Reshown Friday)

8:00 U.S.A.: ARTISTS . . . Kenneth Noland

8:30 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . Saddle of Lamb-
No need to wait for a great feast in an Eng
lish country house — roast saddle of lamb
is easy to prepare for your own chic little
dinner party.

9:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA ... God and the Secu
lar City— Religion in the spotlight: the re
sults of the Ecumenical Council, the recent
"God is Dead" discussions, and new develop
ments in theology. Among Caspar Weinber
ger's guests is Harvey Coe, author of The
Secular City. Presented with the financial
assistance of the Associated Students of
S.F. State College. (Reshown Sunday.)

10:00 MUSEUM OPEN HOUSE . . . Vogue's Gallery

— The disinterment of some of the artists
whose fame, undeservedly, has not outlived
their time.

10:30 OPINION IN THE CAPITAL

FRIDAY. March 25

11:30 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . March 23 reshow
ing.

12:00 ART STUDIO

12:15 THE FRIENDLY GIANT

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Casals Master Class
—Casals supervises the performance of
Saint-Sams' Concerto No. 1, Opus 33 (first
and second movements).

4:00 THE NEW COMERS . . . March 24 reshowing.

4:30 GREAT DECISIONS . . . March 23 reshowing.

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 ART STUDIO (KQED) . . . Animal Drawing.

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT . . . Western Songs.

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... Indian Canoemen and the
Saddlemaker.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Haydn's Symphony
No. 44 in E Minor, performed by the Neth
erlands Chamber Orchestra.

7:00 THE SCOTCH GARDENER (KQED) . . . Viewer
Mail — Jim Kerr reads the month's mail and
answers viewers' questions. (Reshown
Wednesday)

(DEBUT) DOLLARS AND SENSE . . . March 21
reshowing.

7:30

8:00 IN MY OPINION . . . March 21 reshowing.

8:30 (MUSIC) THE LOS ANGELES PHILHARMONIC

. . . The baton of dramatic conductor Zubin
Merita leads the Los Angeles Philharmonic
in a videotaped performance of Haydn's
Symphony No. 96 in D ("Miracle"); Barber's
Piano Concerto, soloist John Browning; and
Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra. (Reshown
Sunday, 10 p.m.)

9:30 WHERE IS JIM CROW? . . . March 23 re-
showing.

10:00 WORLD HISTORY . . . Imperialism in Ma
in the late 19th century, the British and the
French were extending their holdings
throughout Asia.

SATURDAY. March 26

5:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE . . . Advance
showing of Tuesday's 10:30 p.m. program.

6:00 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX ... A lesson in
three ways of taking tricks. (Reshown Sun
day, 6:30 p.m.)

6:30 KOLTANOWSKI ON CHESS . . . March 21
reshowing.

7:00 FILMS A LA CARTE . . . Crafts of My Prov
ince — by New Brunswick artists; Ma Prov
ince, Mes Chansons — Jacques Labrecque
sings songs reflecting the spirit and tradi
tion of French Canada.

7:30 BOOK BEAT . . . Norman Mailer— waxes elo
quent on the subject of his book The Great
Salad Oil Swindle.

8:00 THE OPEN MIND

9:00 SUNDAY SHOWCASE . . . Lincoln Center
Special — March 20 reshowing.

10:30 INTERTEL ... Men in Black . . . March 23
reshowing.

KQED TRAVEL PROGRAM

"SPRING TOUR OF THE ORIENT (#903) May 7-29

Scheduled air services on IATA carriers. All-inclusive tour price: $1098.00
(Available to non-members at an all-inclusive price of $1383.00)
"SPRING CHARTER TO EUROPE (#902) Apr. 29 -May 29

San Francisco/ London/ San Francisco Approximate air-fare: $400.00

via TWA jet.

"FALL CHARTER TO EUROPE (#906) Sept. 30 -Oct. 27

San Francisco/ Frankfurt (London optional); Approximate air- fare: $400.00

return from Paris, via Lufthansa jet.

(Membership eligibility date for this charter is Nov. 29, 1965)

"To participate in these trips, you or a member of your family must be a member
of KQED at the time application was made by KQED to the carrier and not less
than 6 months prior to departure date.

And 5 Summer Group Flights To Europe

Flights #904, 905, 907, 908 and 909 departing San Francisco
for various European destinations between June 15 and July 12.
Round trip air fares $532.20 to $592.20. Available to those who
have been KQED members for 6 months prior to departure date.

For information, call or write KQED Travelplan
SUtter 1-8861 • 525 Fourth St., San Francisco 7

SUNDAY. March 27

5:00 PARLONS FRANCAIS

5:30 UNA AVENTURA ESPANOLA

6:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . March 23 reshowing.

6:30 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX ... March 26 re-
showing.

7:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA . . . March 24 reshowing.

8:00 SUNDAY SHOWCASE ... The Fine Arts—

Again, we can only tell you that tonight's
program will be the first of three showcasing
the fine arts, traditional and contemporary.
In effect, these televised expositions of
painting and sculpture will be "museums
without walls." (Reshown Saturday, April 2,
9 p.m.)

9:45 A FEW WORDS ABOUT CHANNEL 9

10:00 (MUSIC) LOS ANGELES PHILHARMONIC . . .

March 25 reshowing.

MONDAY. March 28

12:00 CHILDREN'S FAIR

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Children Growing—

The battle lines of sibling rivalry delineated
by Dr. Piers.

4:00 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . Preview of Thurs
day's 8:30 p.m. program.

4:30 U.S.A.: ARTISTS . . . Preview of Thursday's
8 p.m. program.

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 CHILDREN'S FAIR

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... World in a Marsh.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Deux Portraits,
Op. 5, by Bel? Bartok.

6:45 A FEW WORDS ABOUT CHANNEL 9

7:00 FOLK GUITAR (KQED) . . . Time to practice:
the plucking strum with "In Good Old Col
ony Times" and the brush strum and ham
mering on with "Charlie is My Darling."
(Reshown Wednesday)

7:30 ANTIQUES . . . Country Auctions— Hints
about auctions — to make them profitable
as well as exciting.

8:00 KOLTANOWSKI ON CHESS (KQED) ... Re
flections in a Mirror— Autobiographical notes
on an ex-Belgian chess champion — Koltan-
owski. (Reshown Saturday)

8:30 INTERNATIONAL MAGAZINE ... A monthly
film periodical of international feature stor
ies by foreign journalists. David M. Culhane
is host-"editor." (Reshown tomorrow and
Friday)

9:30 CITY BEAT: MEL WAX (KQED)
9:50 RADENZEL REPORTS (KQED)

10:00 IF YOU DON'T DRINK, THE PRICE OF WINE
IS OF NO INTEREST (KQED) ... but to
night's guests use a variety of other topics
as grist for their conversational mill. For
good talk, and a dinner served by Giovanni's
restaurant, host James Day welcomes: Ger-
maine Thompson, World Press reporter for
French newspapers and the Alliance Fran-
caise; Dr. George Medley, emeritus chaplain
and professor of economics and sociology at
Mills College; and international lawyer Fritz
Oppenheimer.

11:00 SOVIET PRESS THIS WEEK

TUESDAY. March 29

12:00 SING HI SING LO
12:15 THE FRIENDLY GIANT

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Museum Open
House — Preview of Thursday 10:00 p.m.

4:00 INTERNATIONAL MAGAZINE . . . March 28
reshowing.

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 SING HI SING LO

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... Sable Island.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Grieg: Concerto
in A Minor, Op. 16.

VOLUME 12, No. 6, MARCH, 1966. "KQED IN FOCUS" is published monthly by the non
profit Bay Area Educational Television Association, 525 Fourth Street, San Francisco 7,
SUtter 1-8861. This monthly program guide is available only to members of the Association
who contribute $12.50 or more annually to the support of KQED. Contributions in any
amount to KQED are tax deductible.

Editor . . . HARLINE HURST Assistant Kditor . . . KAKYN HOLT

7:00 CIRCUS . . . High in the Air ... Circus dare
devils perform their feats high in the air,
recapturing the nostalgia of the fascinating
Big Top. "La Norma" does "heel catches"
without a net; Zacchini and Munoz are shot
from cannons.

7:30 OPENING NIGHT (KQED) ... The Empire
Builders — Recent experimental productions
at the Actor's Workshop's second theatre
come in for a word of praise and perhaps
a caustic comment or two from KQED's
candid critic David Littlejohn. Special atten
tion tonight to the late Boris Vian's 1959
play "The Empire Builders" which opened
February 18 at the Encore Theatre for an
indefinite run.

8:00 CONCERT (KQED) ... The winners of the
seventh annual Oakland Symphony Young
Artists Award presented in performance.
Gerhard Samuel, musical director and con
ductor of the Oakland Symphony Orchestra,
hosts this special program.

9:00 OPEN END

10:00 U.S.A.: POETRY . . . Brother Antoninus and
Michael McClure — Though their environ
ments and poetic styles differ widely, Mi
chael McClure and Brother Antoninus equal
one another in intense emotional involve
ment with their poetry. Demonstrating what
has been described as "the savagery of
love" in his poems, Dominican lay brother
Antoninus reads "In All These Acts" and
"Annul in Me My Manhood." McClure re
gales the lions at the San Francisco Zoo
with an unpublished poem dedicated to Al
len Ginsberg, the poem "Night Words" and
two works from his book Ghost Tantras. A
KQED Film Unit production. (Reshown
Thursday)

10:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE ... The Common
Market: Costs Versus Opportunity— Tonight's
panel discusses the necessity of adapting
American goods to the needs of the foreign
consumer.

WEDNESDAY. March 30

12:00 ART STUDIO

12:15 SING HI SING LO

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE . . . Language in Action.

4:00 FOLK GUITAR . . . March 28 reshowing.

4:30 THE SCOTCH GARDENER . . . March 25 re
showing.

5:00 WHAFSNEW

5:30 ART STUDIO (KQED) . . . Animal Painting.

Jeunes hommes, jeunes filles, la guerre = drama.
Gertrude Stein called it Yes Is for a Very Young
Man ... March 18, 8:30 p.m., March 20, 10 p.m.

5:45 SING HI SING LO (KQED)
6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... A Day in June.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Shostakovich:
Symphony No. 5. Leonard Bernstein con
ducts the New York Philharmonic.

7:00 SCIENCE IN ACTION . . . Viticulture— The

science of grape growing, one of the oldest
agricultural sciences — studied with the guid
ance of Don McColly, president and general
manager of the Wine Institute in San Fran
cisco. The week's scientific news is reported
by David Perlman. (Reshown Friday and
Sunday)

7:30 GREAT DECISIONS . . . Making Foreign Pol
icy in a Nuclear Age— Who should set the
nation's foreign policy? Interviews and com
mentary search out ways to divide the re
sponsibility between the president and the
Congress. Communications experts speak of
the role of mass media in shading foreign
policy. (Reshown Friday)

8:00 WHERE IS JIM CROW? (KQED)

8:30 TURN OF THE CENTURY . . . Stand Close!
Sing Loud! — Commandment for the rigorous
recording sessions that supplied records to
19th century parlor phonographs.

9:00 WORLD PRESS (KQED)

10:00 REGIONAL REPORT ... The Republicans-
Reporters throughout the nation probe their
own region's reactions to the current state
of the Republican Party. Republican popu
larity and public image are contrasted from
the deep south to San Francisco. (Reshown
Saturday, 10:30 p.m.)

THURSDAY, March 31

12:00 ONCE UPON A DAY

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE ... The French Chef-
Preview of today's 8:30 p.m. program.

4:00 U.S.A.: POETRY . . . March 29 reshowing.

4:30 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Preview of today's
7 p.m. program.

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 ONCE UPON A DAY

6:00 WHAT'S NEW ... Ti-Jean Goes Lumbering.

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC . . . Mahler's Sym
phony No. 4 in G (3rd and 4th Movements).

7:00 AUTO MECHANICS . . . Engine Electric Start
ing System.

7:30 THE NEW COMERS (KQED) . . . High School
to College — It's homecoming day for the
"new comers" who appeared on Channel 9
last year and have since entered college. "All
grown up," they give advice to this year's
high school seniors. (Reshown Friday)

8:00 U.S.A.: ARTISTS . . . Frank Stella.

8:30 THE FRENCH CHEF . . . Napoleons— Kirsch-

flavored whipped cream between light but
tery pastry concocts a tempting dessert or
tea-tray adornment. Heroine of the sweet-
toothed, Julia Child demonstrates the art of
French puff pastry, and uses it to create
the delectable Napoleons.

9:00 PROFILE: BAY AREA {KQED) ... Art, Mu
seums and the Bay Area — Leading museum
directors and art critics consider the Bay
Area's appreciation of the fine arts. Caspar
Weinberger hosts. Presented with the finan
cial assistance of the San Francisco Exami
ner. (Reshown Sunday.)

10:00 MUSEUM OPEN HOUSE . . . Motion and
Emotion: Baroque Sculpture — The tensions
of the Baroque Age, dramatically tangible
in the twisting lines of its sculpture seen
in the Boston Museum of Fine Art.

10:30 OPINION IN THE CAPITAL

We gratefully acknowledge the financial as
sistance of these KQED program under
writers:

• Associated Students of S.F. State College

• The Crown Zellerbach Foundation

• Gump's of San Francisco

• Hills Bros. Coffee of San Francisco

• Jenkel-Davidson Optical Company

• The Junior League of Oakland

• Pacific Gas and Electric Company

• The San Francisco Examiner

• Wells Fargo Bank

Ron Moody is Autolicus, one of Shakespeare's wit
tiest clowns, in A Winter's tale . . . April 1 and 3

^*-

FRIDAY. April 1

11:30 SCIENCE IN ACTION

12:00 ART STUDIO

12:15 THE FRIENDLY GIANT

12:30 AT NOON ON NINE

4:00 THE NEW COMERS

4:30 GREAT DECISIONS

5:00 WHAT'S NEW

5:30 ART STUDIO

5:45 THE FRIENDLY GIANT

6:00 WHAT'S NEW

6:30 PORTRAIT IN MUSIC

7:00 THE SCOTCH GARDENER

7:30 INTERNATIONAL MAGAZINE
8:30 (DRAMA) THE WINTER'S TALE
11:00 WORLD HISTORY

SATURDAY. April 2

5:30 MARKETING ON THE MOVE
6:00 BRIDGE WITH JEAN COX (II)
6:30 KOLTANOWSKI ON CHESS
7:00 FILMS A LA CARTE
7:30 BOOK BEAT
8:00 THE OPEN MIND
9:00 SUNDAY SHOWCASE
10:30 AT ISSUE: THE TELEVISION SEASON

BEYON D CHANNEL 9...

. . . March features on other Bay Area television stations.

TOWN MEETING OF THE WORLD

A nuclear weapons discussion, starring Senator
Rcbert Kennedy and the Early Bird Satellite.
March 1 — 10 p.m. — Channel 5

COLLOQUY

Sunday morning literary salons consider Virgil and
Cervantes, among others.
Sundays — 9:30 a.m. — Channel 4

STUART LITTLE

Johnny Carson is the voice of Stuart in this Chil
dren's Theatre production of E. B. White's tale of
a metropolitan mouse.
March 6 — 6:30 p.m. — Channel 4

OPERATION SEA WAR: VIETNAM

The U.S. Navy's role against an enemy with no
sea power.

March 10 — 10 p.m. — Channel 7

BALLET FOR SKEPTICS

Roland Petit and Zizi Jeanmaire star in a frolic
costumed by Yves St. Laurent.
March 11 — 7:30 p.m. — Channel 4

SINBAD— PERSIAN GULF TO ZANZIBAR

Lowell Thomas adventures along one of the world's

oldest trading routes.

March 16 — 9 p.m. — Channel 2

THE REFORMATION

Luther, Calvin, Ignatius — spiritual mavericks of the
16th century.

March 20 — 6:30 p.m. — Channel 4

CALIFORNIA THE MOST

A tour of the "in" and "out" places that brighten
and tarnish California's golden image.
March 23 — 9 p.m. — Channel 2

BEETHOVEN

Schroeder's idol revisited in an ABC documentary.
March 23 — 10 p.m. — Channel 7

THE BEST OF LAUREL AND HARDY

Films of the two funnymen are hosted by fan

Steve Allen.

March 30 — 9 p.m. — Channel 2

THE SOUTH

A ramble below the Mason-Dixon. Robert Preston

is guide.

March 31 — 9 p.m. — Channel 7

KO.ED INSTRUCTIONAL TELEVISION - 1065-19GO
PROGRAM SCHEDULE

Monday tuesday Wednesday fAursday frfday

1:00

9:00

10:00

11:00
1:00

2:00
3:00

ESPANOL PARA MAESTROS
8:00-8:30'
LETS TALK
8:55-9:10'

MATH ON THE MOVE
9:15-9:35

UNAAVENTURA
ESPANOLA 1
9:40-9:55

ALL ABOUT YOU
9:20-9:35

PARLONS FRANCAIS 1
9:40-9:55

WHAT'S THE MATTER (Sprint)
9:10-9:30

UNAAVENTURA ESPANOLA 1
9:40-9:55

SCIENCE FAR t NEAR
9:10-9:30'

PARLONS FRANCAIS 1
9:40-9:55

EXPLORING THE NEWS
9:15-9:35

UNAAVENTURA
ESPANOLA 1
9:40-9:55

LETS FIND OUT
10:00-10:15
LET'S SOLVE IT
10:20-10:40
IT AIL ADDS UP
10:45-11:00

SCIENCE IN YOUR LIFE
10:00-10:20-
LETS TALK
10:25-10:40
HEADS UP
10:45-11:00

BAY AREA ADVENTURE
10:05-10:25

SINGING, LISTENING,
DOING
10:40-11:00

WHERE ON EARTH
10:00-10:20'
THE WORDSMITH
10:30-10:50
ALL ABOUT YOU
10:55-11:10*

SCIENCE IN OUR WORLD
10:05-10:35*

SINGING, LISTENING,
DOING
10:40-11:00

TAKE A NUMBER
11:05-11:25

MUSIC FOR YOU
11:15-11:35

WHERE ON EARTH
1:10-1:30

SCIENCE FAR & NEAR
1:35-1:55

IT ALL ADDS UP
1:00-1:15*
MATH ON THE MOVE
1:20-1:40*
LETS SOLVE IT
1:45-2:05*

HEADS UP
1:10-1:25'

SINGING, LISTENING,
DOING
1:30-1:50*

SCIENCE IN OUR WORLD
1:00-1:30

THE WORDSMITH
1:35-1:55*

BAY AREA
ADVENTURE
1:05-1:25*

SINGING, LISTENING,
DOING
1:30-1:50*

SCIENCE IN YOUR LIFE
2:00-2:20

UNAAVENTURA
ESPANOLA II
2:30-2:45

TAKE A NUMBER
2:10-2:30'

PARLONS FRANCAIS II
2:30-2:45

LETS FIND OUT
2:00-2:15*

UNA AVENTURA
ESPANOLA II
2:30-2:45

WHAT'S THE MATTER (Spring)
2:00-2:20'

PARLONS FRANCAIS II
2:30-2:45

EXPLORING THE NEWS
2:00-2:20*

UNA AVENTURA
ESPANOLA II
2:30-2:45

ESPANOL PARA
MAESTROS
3:304:00

•Repeat Programs

o
O m

from the Daily Californian, 8 November 1966

A Pre-Beat Poet With Love

By TOM COLLINS

Entertainment Editor

When Ed Sanders of "The Fugs" heard William
Everson read poetry in Greenwich Village, he left
the hall muttering, "I came to dig this cat's poetry,
but I didn't ask him to mess around with my soul."

Everson, under the name of Brother Antoninus,
which he assumed upon taking Dominican Orders
in 1951, will give his first Bay Area poetry reading
in four years at 8:15 p.m. tomorrow in Wheeler
Auditorium.

He has three books of published poetry, one of
which, "Single Source," is published by Oyez Press
in Berkeley. Doubleday is soon to publish "The
Rose of Solitude," and a prose study of Robinson
Jeffers will be forthcoming from Oyez in the near
future.

It is conceivable that some of the poems he will
reading will be from his unpublished work, Anto-
(Continued on Page 14)

BKUIMtK AN i ON IN US

ninus said yesterday. But he does
not know what he'll read until he
appears because he works by
establishing an intense and close
relationship with the audience.

Billed under the heading. "The
Savagery of Love," his encounters
with the audience are just that.

At Boston College last year he
doused a student photographer
with a glass of water, resumed the
platform, and asked, "How can a
man make love with a camera on
him?" . ,

Antoninus was born in 1912,
and grew up in Fresno County.
During World War II he was a
conscientious objector (he says
he would still be a CO if the draft
were to come around to him
again), and encountered mysti
cism in the form of Vedants at
the CO camp. When he returned
to the area he joined a group of
anarcho-pacifists and bohemians
who formed the "pre-Beat" phase
of the San Francisco poetry move
ment.

At a press conference yester
day he condemned the use of
LSD and similar drugs as adoles
cent, a kind of "mystical mastur
bation," which serves, on one
level, as a substitute for sin.

"It's attraction arises from be
ing holy and forbidden. It pro
vides an accent on the content of
experience, and eliminates the
content of belief."

He condemned "the appearance
of narcotics in the guise of prime
mystical techniques," when they
are really "only second rate."

"They provide vision without
the preparation for vision. This
is probably the reason for break
ups. LSD opens the ego to the
Divine, and a radical displace
ment of sensibility is the risk.
Profane man must be prepared
before he enters the transcenden
tal areas.

"LSD attacks and obviates this,
as if we become more secular
when the chips are down. The im
pact of a vision of the Divine
provides a resonance on the sen
sibilities. Drugs replace prepara
tion for wisdom.

"That's why I'm shocked to
hear people like Alan Watts and
Gary Snyder, whose prestige
comes from Zen, denying their
own disciplines and the teaching
of Zen by letting people think
this is a prime mystical vision."

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Full text of "Brother Antoninus: poet, printer and religious : oral history transcript / and related material, 1965-1966"

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