Skip to main content

Full text of "California grape products and other wine enterprises : oral hostory transcript / and related material, 1969-1971"

See other formats


University of California Berkeley 


University of California Bancroft Library/Berkeley 

Regional Oral History Office 

Horace 0, Lanza 
Harry Baccigaluppi 

With Introductions by 
Maynard A. Amerine 

Interviews Conducted by 
Ruth Teiser 

1971 by The Regents of The University of California 




































"What Has Become of the Family Life Today?" 
by Horace 0. Lanza 

Horace 0. Lanza letter of November 18, 1969 

(For Wines and Grapes see page 

University of California Bancroft Library/Berkeley 

Regional Oral History Office 

Horace 0. Lanza 

With an Introduction by 
Maynard A. Amerine 

An Interview Conducted by 
Ruth Teiser 

1971 by The Regents of The University of California 

Horace 0. Lanza photographed while being interviewed at his home. 
February 13, 1969. Photographs by Ruth Teiser 

All uses of this manuscript are covered by a 
legal agreement between the Regents of the University 
of California and Horace 0. Lanza, dated 2? November, 
1970, The manuscript is thereby made available for 
research purposes. All literary rights in the manuscript, 
including the right to publish, are reserved to the 
Bancroft Library of the University of California at 
Berkeley. No part of the manuscript may be quoted for 
publication without the written permission of the 
Director of The Bancroft Library of the University of 
California at Berkeley- 
Requests for permission to quote for publication 
should be addressed to the Regional Oral History Office, 
J4-86 Library, and should Include identification of the 
specific passages to be quoted, anticipated use of the 
passages, and identification of the user. The legal 
agreement with Horace 0. Lanza requires that he be 
notified of the request and allowed thirty days in which 
to respond. 


The California Wine Industry Oral History Series, a 
project of the Regional Oral History Office, was initiated 
in 1969 f the year noted as the bicentenary of continuous 
wine making in this state. It was undertaken through the 
action and with the financing of the Wine Advisory Board, 
and under the direction of University of California faculty 
and staff advisors at Berkeley and Davis. 

The purpose of the series is to record and preserve 
information on California grape growing and wine making that 
has existed only in the memories of wine men. In some cases 
their recollections go back to the early years of this 
century, before Prohibition. These recollections are of 
particular value because the Prohibition period saw the 
disruption of not only the industry itself but also the 
orderly recording and preservation of records of its 
activities. Little has been written about the industry from 
late in the last century until Repeal. There is a real 
paucity of information on the Prohibition years (1920-1933), 
although some wine making did continue under supervision of 
the Prohibition Department. The material in this series on 
that period, as well as the discussion of the remarkable 
development of the wine industry in subsequent years (as 
yet treated analytically in few writings) will be of aid to 
historians. Of particular value is the fact that frequently 
several individuals have discussed the same subjects and 
events or expressed opinions on the same ideas, each from 
his own point of view. 

Research underlying the Interviews has been conducted 
principally in the University libraries at Berkeley and 
Davis, the California State Library, and in the library of 
the Wine Institute, which has made its collection of in 
many cases unique materials readily available for the 

Three master indices for the entire series are being 
prepared, one of general subjects, one of wines, one of 
grapes by variety. These will be available to researchers 
at the conclusion of the series in the Regional Oral History 
Office and at the library of the Wine Institute. 


The Regional Oral History Office was established to 
tape record autobiographical interviews with persons who 
have contributed significantly to recent California history. 
The office is headed by Willa K. Baton and is under the 
administrative supervision of James D, Hart, the Director 
of The Bancroft Library, 

Ruth Teiser 
Project Director 
California Wine Industry 
Oral History Series 

1 March 1971 

Regional Oral History Office 
^86 The Bancroft Library 
University of California, Berkeley 



Horace 0. Lanza was born In Sicily in 1881 (or, as he 
explains, possibly in 1880). At the age of 10 (or 11) he 
came with his parents to a farm at Fredonia, New York. In 
1901 he obtained his law degree at the University of Buffalo 
and successfully practiced law there until about 1915- 

His interest in wine dates from about 189^ or 1895 when 
he worked in his brother s small winery in Fredonia. In 1915 
he and a friend took over this winery. About 1920 he moved 
to California where he has since lived. All of his subsequent 
career was in the wine and grape industry. Most of this oral 
history concerns his wine career with numerous fascinating 
details of his operations and reminiscences of his friends 
and rivals. 

At least three themes run through his story: wine and 
grape operations during Prohibition, his keen interest in 
grape growing in California, and his philosophical interest 
in people and education. 

The Prohibition operations are particularly interesting. 
The large scale of legal operations are not widely known or 
appreciated. His early and successful production and sale of 
grape concentrate should be noted. The numerous intra-lndustry 
maneuvers during Prohibition are especially noteworthy 
particularly his recollections of how they came about. 

He has been associated with grape growing In many areas 
of California: Ukiah, Saint Helena, Cordelia (in Solano 
County), Elk Grove (in Sacramento County), and finally, and 
most importantly, near Delano. In all of these operations he 
was keenly interested in grape varieties and in factors 
influencing the quality of the wines which they produced. 

Finally, there is his long and loyal friendship with his 
customers, associates and friends. In these relationships 
he reveals himself as a kindly man with a high and rare degree 
of consideration for his fellow human beings. 

His memory slips very seldom. One such slip is his 
confusion of Paso Robles as a vineyard area with the Paicines 


area 90 miles to the north in an entirely different climatic 
zone (p. 3^- et seq.). 

Altogether, it is a remarkable Horatio Alger success 

Maynard A. Amerine 

Professor, Viticulture and Enology 

January 1971 

101 Wickson Hall 

University of California at Davis 


The interview with Horace 0. Lanza was conducted in four 
sessions on January 30, February 5 February 11, and February 
13, 1969. The first two were held at the offices of Calgrape 
Wineries, Inc., in the Sharon Building, San Francisco. In 
those sessions Mr. Lanza s younger associate of many years, 
Marry 3accigaluppi, participated. (He, like the other men 
who have worked with Mr. Lanza, call him "Boss" in direct 
address.) At that time, although Mr. Lanza had ceased formal 
duties with the firm, he continued to go to the offices 

The third and fourth sessions were held in the library of 
Mr. Lanza s home in Piedmont, a well appointed and comfortable 
room where Mr. Lanza continued writing philosophical essays in 
the same vein as his book, Thought and Conduct (a copy of which 
he has deposited in the Bancroft Library) and the essay on 
family life appended to this interview. 

Mr. Lanza has also from time to time contributed articles 
to the trade press, giving informed and outspoken opinions on 
various aspects of the wine industry. (For example, "Light 
Svreet Wine" and "Vintners and Vineyardists, Partners or 
Competitors?", Wines and Vines, December 19*4-5 and September 
1952.) Views expressed earlier at a pre-Hepeal Congressional 
hearing in which several leading California wine men participated 
are reported in: U.S. Congress, House Ways and Means Committee. 
Prohibition, Modification of Volstead Act. Hearings, ?2nd 
Congress, 2nd Session; Dec. 7, 1932. 

Mr. Lanza spoke with deliberation, clarity and grace, and 
often with pleasure at recalling almost forgotten incidents. 
His style of speaking is reminiscent of his legal training and 
career early in this century. The initial transcript of the 
interview was sent to him in September 19&9* Both he and Mr. 
Baccigaluppi read it. Few changes were made beyond occasional 
corrections and clarifications in wording and brief additions, 
some at the request of the interviewer. Folloi-xing the return 
of the transcript to the interviewer for final editing, he gave 
some additional general comments in a letter of November 18, 
1969. A copy of it also is appended to this interview. 

Huth Teiser, 

30 January 1971 

**86 The Bancroft Library 

University of California at Berkeley 

(Interview with Horace 0. Lanza with Comments 
by Harry Baccigaluppl. San Francisco, 
January 30, 1969) 


Teiser: When did you begin your career in wine making? 

Lanza: I began to work in wine making (I won t say a 

winery) in about 1894, 93 or 9^, in Predonia, New 
York. That s in Chautauqua County, the Chautauqua 
district, near Lake Erie. I had a brother, an older 
brother, Peter Lanza, who was fired from a job he had 
in the canning factory. It seems that he was working 
in the summertime when it was hot in those days the 
factories didn t have all the conveniences they have 
nowadays, and they worked sort of half -naked. Somebody 
threw a pail of water over an old German who was 
working near my brother and other youngsters, and he 
Immediately turned around and asked my brother, "Who 
did it? Who did it?" Of course all the boys were 
laughing and my brother didn t say who did it. He 
concluded from that that he must have thrown the pail 
of water over him, and the old man hit the young man 
about twenty years of age, you see, and he hit back. 
Just then the foreman came by and fired both of them. 

And I remember well, when he came home he was 
crestfallen at the loss of his job, because he had a Job 
that he was sort of an expert in sealing cans. In 
those days the tin cans that they used had an opening 
in the center of one end through which they would fill 
it up and then the hole would be soldered. So he was 
making good wages. My mother was a very religious 
woman but when she got excited she could swear like no 

Lanza: trooper I ever heard. [Laughter] So when Peter told 
the fact, she said, "By Jingo," or something like that, 
"I never wanted you to work anyway. I want you to get 
in business for yourself." So she went to the trunk, 
got $80, and gave it to him and said, "Now you go over 
to old man Smith s," who used to make a little wine, 
"and buy all the wine that you can. And then go to 
the city and sell it, at a profit." 

Sure enough, he took the $80, went to old man 
Smith, bought ten barrels of wine, or such a liquid 
that was called wine in those days. He went to the 
city and sold it for $200 $20 a barrel. He bought it 
at 8, sold it at $20. So he made $120 that easy. 
Why, he had never seen so much money in his life! 

Teiser: What city was it he went to? 

Lanza: Buffalo. Buffalo, New York, which is about ^-3 miles 
from Predonia. The following fall then he thought he 
would get into the business. And he bought a lot of 
fresh, empty whiskey barrels, as many as he could 
place in the basement of the house we were living in, 
improvised a little platform to crush grapes, and 
hired one of those burly Italians, barefooted, and so 
he proceeded to crush the grapes on this level plat 
form. And from that, they would gather the juice and 
fill up the barrels. That was the first year. As I 
say, it was about 189*4-. In 95 he built a little plant 
there, a little wine cellar, near the railroad. And 
from that time on the thing started going up, and he 
was very successful. 

I remember when he married. He was 2? years old. 
He owned a vineyard, 30 acres. He owned this little 
wine cellar along the railway track, the railroad. He 
had $15,000 cash. That was a lot of money. In that 
winery, [when] I was a schoolboy, I would go there 
and help pile the boxes or sweep the floor or move, 
you know, the empty kegs such work as a boy would do. 
I didn t realize at the time that I was learning the 
wine business, you see, by observing. 

Anyway some time later I went then to the city, 
to the university to study law. My brother in 1911 
was ailing and the doctor said he had to have a change 
of climate. So he came to California in 1911 and he 
closed the winery. In 191^ when the war broke out he 
wrote to me. I was then a young man. And he said, 
"Why don t you make some money for yourself? Open my 

Lanza: winery. You can hire the help, flake some wine, 

because no wine is coming from Europe. And there s a 
good market for the home-made product." So I went to 
Fredonia to look it over, about 1915- When I got down 
there I met on the street a Supreme Court Judge that I 
had known. He said, "What are you doing here in town?" 
I told him. I said, "I came down to look over the 
winery of my brother. He thinks that I should open it 

"He s right! Let f s go into it." [Laughter] 

So I couldn t refuse to take the judge as a 
partner, [laughter] so we started the business, the 
wine making. 

Teiser: What was his name? 

Lanza: Lambert, John S. Lambert. So we made the wine all 
right, but we weren t making money. It required 
attention, you see, and the attention I would give to 
it would be say, once a week, once or so, to go over 
there from the city to look it over. So it wasn t going 
so well. I had saved by the time I went into this 
business $14,000 cash. That was the capital I had. And 
I had invested all of it in this wine venture. So I 
talked to a brother-in-law of mine who was in the wine 
business himself on a small scale. I said, "If you 
take it over, at whatever price you think is right, as 
you sell you may pay what figure that I have coming." 
I ve forgotten what it was, but he gave me $1,000 down. 
In a few months he came to me. He said, "Here are the 
keys of your wine cellar. To hell with you and your 
wine." [Laughter] I said, "What happened?" 

He said, "Too much work, too much trouble, and 
nothing in it." [Laughter] So I said, "Well, why 
don t you get somebody?" 

He said, "Nothing doing. But I ll tell you, if 
you ll stay in there with me, as part owner, I ll 
carry on." 

"Why," I said, "listen, 
is in with me." 

I can t do it. The judge 

"Well," he said, "we ll take him in also." 

"All right. Let s go." There was nothing else 
I could do. And he ran the business. Then we got 



Baccl. : 


into the war, and in 1918.,. 

Can I interrupt you and ask you what his name was? 

A. William Russo, H-u-s-s-o. 

And did you have a name for the winery at that time? 

The Colonial Wine Company. 

Correct that s the name that I gave to it. 

When you and the Judge went in? 

Yes. I thought the word colonial in those days, 
when the people were coming from Europe, you know, the 
new colonies.... 

Anyway, in 1918 there was the threat of Prohibition, 
And I could see it coming. And I had been reading. 
When I got in the wine business I started to read all 
the pamphlets or books that I could lay my hands on, 
which were not many. At least people that I knew didn t 
know of many such publications. And I read a lot about 
the French, the French people, that in off-years they 
would go to Greece or Turkey and buy raisins and buy 
grapes, and then bring them to France and they would 
make wine. And as they were talking about Prohibition, 
I thought, well, if the French could make wine from 
dried grapes, when we have Prohibition here, the 
houseowner can probably make wine from concentrate. 
And I worked on that theory. 

So I came to California and I made a contract to 
buy some concentrate, through Mr [A.R.] Morrow of the 
California Wine Association, made an agreement with 
the Woodbridge winery in Lodi to make I ve forgotten, 
it seems to me like 20,000 gallons of concentrate. 
That was a bigger order for concentrate than they ever 
had. And they didn t quite understand what I had in 

Anyway, they made it, and when they were making 
it their equipment to make concentrate was limited. 
They would take concentrate, so much grape juice, and 
put it in a tank. The next day some more grape Juice 
and put it over the concentrate made the day before. 
And the next day, and the next day, with the result 

Lanza: that this tank had the concentrate made, say, in two 
or three weeks, with the result that the concentrate 
would be warm and hot every day and would heat the 
whole mess and made it brown as brown could be. 
[Laughter] Well, anyway, they finally put it in 
barrels and I move ditto Predonia. 

It was this winery that I f m talking about. And 
we piled it on the floor there, not realizing or 
understanding that the floor of the homemade building 
[laughter] there couldn t hold the weight of, I ve 
forgot, 300 or *K>0 barrels. So the floor [laughter] 
caved in over the tanks underneath, because there in 
Predonia the wine cellars were underground to protect 
the winery from the winter conditions. Well, that was 


Lanza: The result of our experiment with concentrate was 
not so encouraging, but I still was thinking of the 
effect of Prohibition, so I came here the next fall 
and I bought 1,300,000 gallons of wine. That is, I 
contracted it, principally with the California Wine 
Association, the firm of Federspiel Wine Company, and 
the Gait winery. This to be shipped as I would order 
it, but it had to be taken before the following vintage. 

Sure enough the Prohibition took place, and there 
were, say, two kinds of Prohibition. One: that you 
could not use during the duration of the war any food 
product in the manufacture of alcoholic beverages. 
Therefore you could not use any grapes, you see. And 
that was temporary, while the war lasted.* (The second 
was the following January. ) This law went into effect 
the first of July, I think 1918 or 1919, while we were 
still in the war, the last year of the war. 

I had figured that when Prohibition would come 
that everybody would sort of hoard beverages, wine 

*The so-called Wartime Prohibition Act, which took 
effect July 1, 1919. The Eighteenth Amendment took 
effect January 16, 1920. 

Lanza: included, because they couldn t get it any more. And 
that is why I had bought heavily here, in anticipation 
of that rush. And sure enough when the first 
Prohibition came, on July 1st, all my competitors 
stopped shipping wine because the department, I ve 
forgotten what they called it in those days, the 
department affecting alcoholic beverages in Washington. . . 

Bacci: The Prohibition Department. 

Lanza: ...the Prohibition Department [administrator] issued 

an order specifying that all beverages containing 2-1/2$ 
of alcohol were prohibited. So you could sell anything 
less than 2-1/2%, but not over 2-1/2. I figured that 
he had no such authority, that his business was an 
administrative business but not a law-making. The act 
simply condemned intoxicating liquor, so the question 
of intoxicating liquor would become a question of fact. 
But when I called that to the attention of the 
department in Washington, they wrote back and practically 
told me "mind your business or else." So I paid no 
attention to it. 

But on July 1st, when this Prohibition was 
supposed to take effect, the first Prohibition, all my 
competitors stopped. I continued. The railroad 
immediately sent orders to their local men not to accept 
any more shipments. So I went to court and proctrred an 
order to show cause why they shouldn t take my shipments. 
And I went to the railroad station to serve a copy of 
that order upon the railroad agent. The minute he saw 
me he said, "Oh, Mr. Lanza, I was coming over to tell 
you. I just got a wire from New York to accept your 
shipments." So I didn t show him the order I had in 
my pocket and didn t serve it. And I started to sell 

All my competitors couldn t understand how and why 
I went on selling wine. But their customers who had 
come to me and offered to buy wine, and I would refuse 
to deal with them. I wanted to take care of just my 
own customers. But they would importune me, and they 
would offer me, say, 2-1/2 cents per gallon higher. 
Well, then I would soften up a little and let them have 
a car or two. But some other competitors, they would 
come and try to buy some, but I was not willing. 

"Look, I ll give you 2-1/2 cents higher." 

Lanza: They were raising the market themselves, not me. 
The wine started at *K> cents a gallon. I had paid 
for it 28 cents a gallon. The last of the wines I 
sold I think was about 85 cents a gallon. So that 
year I made $251*000 net, which was more money than 
I had ever seen in my life. [Laughter] And then I 
became interested in following the wine business. 

With regard to the law, about November 1st of the 
same year that the Prohibition had gone into effect 
the Supreme Court of the United States rendered a 
decision in the case of the United States against 
Peigenspan I still remember the name, Peigenspan 
Brewing Company of Jersey City in which they held as 
I had contended that the administrator in Washington 
could not determine the percentage of alcohol that was 
intoxicating. And therefore he could not specify 
2-1/2$. Immediately Congress met and I think in a 
matter of four or five days they passed the Volstead 
Act, which specified that anything above 1/2$ was 
intoxicating. By that time I had finished selling 
all my wine. Ky competitors started to sell, but the 
law was passed and they were stuck in the end. Well, 
anyway, that was the first incentive that I had to go 
into the business on a larger scale. 

I came to California with my brother and we 
bought the winery at Elk Grove that was owned by 
[Edward L. ] daRoza, the daHoza winery at Elk Grove. 
And we called it the Lanza Winery. My brother put his 
name, the Lanza Winery. We started to plan a big 
production, when suddenly my brother passed away. Mr. 
[Sophus] Federspiel of the Federspiel Wine Company 
came to the funeral. It was in Sacramento. And he 
told me after the funeral, he said, "Who s going to 
represent you now?" I said, "I don t know." "Well," 
he said, "I d like to represent you. You have the 
choice. We could go either in a joint account, a 
partnership, or a corporation or any way that you wish." 
Well, I had dealt with Pederspiel and I liked the way 
that he carried on. In the same manner he liked the 
way I had dealt with him and he wanted to form a 
partnership. So I said, "Mo, no partnership. But I 
am agreeable to form a corporation, incorporate the 
company. " 

"Okay. " 










So we incorporated the Colonial Grape Products 
Company, which was the same name of my little winery 
in Fredonla. And Pedersplel, Mr. [William] Leichter, 
the son-in-law of Glaus Schilling they took 50#; and 
I and Judge Lambert, and my brother-in-law took the 
other 50$. Mr. Schilling, the father-in-law of Mr. 
Leichter, he would be at the office frequently and 
sort of be an advisor or counselor. But he could not 
be in the company because he had sold out his interests 
some time before to the California Wine Association, 
and he had agreed that he would not get into the wine 
business, as one of the conditions of sale, either 
directly or indirectly. But as he told me one time, 
he says, "I didn t agree not to loan any money to 
Willie." [Laughter] 

Willie being his son-in-law. 

So we went on and we carried that on until 1935 > I 

When did you tie in with Vic [Repetto]? In about 1932, 
didn t you? 

Yes. I ll tell you exactly. It was 1933* a ^d how I 
remember is that we made the agreement with the 
California Grape Products Corporation, February 29th. 
It was a leap year. And four days later, in 33, 
Roosevelt closed all the banks. You remember, when he 
was elected one of the first things... 

That would make it, Boss, let s see... 

33, because the election was 28, 32, 36, *K>. 

Let me ask this question of you. Can you draw on your 
memory to this extent: Did Repeal come in the same 
year in which Roosevelt closed the banks? 

If it did, it was at the tail end, because... 

It came on December the 5th, 1933* That s why I m 
trying to tie the dates in, you see. 

Lanza: Yes, that s right. 33 then. 

*See also p 

Baccl.: So it was the year before then that he closed the banks. 

Lanza: He closed the banks four days after he took office. He 
was elected November, 32. 

Bacci.: That s right, okay. Just wanted to get the chronology 
right, that s all. 

Teiser: Was that the end then of the Colonial Grape Products 
Company, or... 

Lanza: Yes, that was the end. 

Bacci.: That was the end so far as you were concerned. 

Lanza: So far as I was concerned, because this was the 

condition: during Prohibition the first two or three 
years when nobody understood or knew the effect of 
real Prohibition, we made a lot of money. After three 
or four years it began to go the other way. 

Teiser: What did you sell during Prohibition? 

Lanza: We sold wines for sacramental purposes... 

Bacci.: And to non-beverage houses. 

Lanza: And non-beverage. And we had quite a trade. 

Teiser: May I ask you a question? I came across in the Wine 

Institute s library two little pamphlets. One was for 
Caligrapo concentrate* and the other was Grap-0-Ney.** 
Grap-0-Ney was for baking. 

Bacci.: Grap-0-Ney, I believe, Boss, was something that old 
man [Mario P.] Tribune had developed from a white 
concentrate for sale to the baking trade where they 
were going to use concentrate in place of Invert sugar. 
Do you remember that? 

Lanza: Yes, I remember that. 
Teiser: Was Caligrapo yours? 

*Caligrapo, The Pride of California, 1927- 

**Bakinp: Better and Healthier Products With Grap-0-Mey, 


Bacci.: It became that after. There is one little break in 

this that had to do with the severance of his relation 
ship with the Colonial Grape Products Company, his 
selling his interests. And the acquisition shortly 
after that of California Grape Products Company, Ltd. 

Lanza: That s right. 

Teiser: I see. I was trying to get back to Prohibition uses 
for manufacturing. 

Lanza: Yes. There was considerable business with manufacturing 
concerns, like for instance I recall one of the best 
customers we had was the Campbell Soup Company. They 
used some sherry wines, you know, for seasoning in 
their soups. Perfectly legitimate. We enjoyed quite a 
nice business. There was another firm in Philadelphia, 
the Bayuk Cigar Company, that used wines in the 
seasoning or curing of their leaves, their tobacco 
leaves. And we had considerable business with them. 

But the greater part of business was the 
sacramental. The sacramental was, if I remember 
correctly, in the Jewish faith. They were using wines 
in their services. So a man, say a rabbi, that wanted 
to buy some wine, he would go to the Prohibition 
Department and say, "I need 20 barrels of wine for my 
congregation." And they would say to him, "All right. 
What kind of wine do you want to buy?" "Well, port." 
"From whom?" "Prom the Colonial Grape Products 
Company." "Very well." They would send us an order, 
the government would send us an order in quadruple in 
which they would say, "You may deliver to Babbi so-and- 
so 20 barrels of port." When we would receive this 
communication from the government, we had to send it 
back by registered mail and say, "We have received the 
enclosed papers. Are they genuine? Were they issued 
by you?" The government would return it to us again 
and say yes. Then we would have to file one copy of 
that order and the envelope in which it arrived, and 
keep it for record. We would deliver the 20 barrels 
and send one copy, one of the four, to the government, 
sayCing], "Order fulfilled;" one copy to the rabbi, 
"Order fulfilled;" and one copy to the transportation 
company in case they were stopped [by authorities] on 
the way to delivery, say[ing], "How come you ve got 
this liquor, or wine?" 

So when we would get the order we weren t required 
to be concerned what became of the wine after it left 


Lanza: our premises, and there was considerable business. 
But later, eventually, it was going less and less. 
As the enforcement of Prohibition was becoming more 
experienced and so on, the business was going down, so 
we were not making money. 

Teiser: There was a family allowance, was there not, so that 
people could make wine at home? Did you supply them? 

Lanza: Yes, but that was, you could sell grapes and they, the 
ordinary householder, he had to be a householder, 
to. . 

Bacci.: To make wine. But he couldn t buy wine. 
Lanza: He could make up to 200 gallons. 
Teiser: But he had to crush the grapes himself? 

Lanza: Not necessarily crush them, but he had to make it, he 

Teiser: Then could you supply him grape Juice? 

Lanza: Exactly. You supply him grape Juice or concentrate, 
which he could dilute, and start a fermentation that 
would be on his premises and only for his own use, 
that is, of his family. 

Teiser: Did you have a large business in that? 

Lanza: Well, the business that we had was the selling of 

grapes and then every grape grower was a competitor. 

Teiser: What kind of grapes were you growing then? 

Lanza: All kinds of grapes. We had vineyards, all kinds of 
wine grapes as I recall. 

Teiser: Were you making sweet wines only or some dry wines? 

Lanza: We were making all kinds of sweet wines. We were also 
making brandy. There were only two permits for brandy. 
One was held by the California Wine Association, and 
one by the Colonial Grape Products Company. Those 
were the only two. 

Bacci.: Didn t that come toward the tail end of Prohibition? 
Lanza : Exactly . 


Bacci.: It was in anticipation of the law s changing. 


Lanza: Well, as I say, business, as Prohibition was coming 
along, was getting lower and lower, and we were all 
in bad straits. On comes a politician from Washington. 
I don t recall... 

Bacci.: Donald D. Conn. 

Lanza: Yes, Donald D. Conn. And he got us in the industry to 
believe that he was representing Hoover, who was then 
President of the United States, and his mission was 
that Hoover wanted all of these wineries that were 
active to combine so as to have only one unit to 
regulate and one unit to watch. And if we didn t get 
together he was going to suppress us out of business 
altogether. He would make statements of that sort and 
use certain words, which we noticed more than once 
that Hoover in making his speeches would use the exact 
words that this fellow was using with us. So we 
believed his message, do you see, and we combined. 
And there were I think 11 firms, or rather nine firms 
I think nine firms. There were nine wineries, the 
leading wineries in the state, and we formed the Fruit 
Indtistries. In the participation, however, two members, 
two of the nine, had 51# control. And of the two, one 
was a very strong figure, the other one was very weak. 

Teiser: What were they? 
Bacci.: One was Paul Garrett. 

Lanza: Yes, we ll put it that way. [Laughter] One was Paul 
Garrett, the other... 

Bacci.: And the other was Secondo Guasti, Jr. 
[Interruption while tape is turned] 
We were at the formation of the Fruit Industries. 


...speaking of Paul Garrett and Secondo Guasti, Jr. 

The rest of us, I don t remember all of the names, but 
seven of us formed the minority. The elder of the two 


Lanza: was a strong-willed person and he controlled the younger 
man s conduct. The result was that we formed into two 
groups. The majority wanted to eat up the minority, 
and the minority wanted to tear up [laughter] the 
majority. Every time we had a meeting of the board of 
directors, in which the nine companies were all 
represented, there would be a row between the majority 
and the minority. I happened to become the leader of 
the minority, and whenever we would have meetings there 
would be a row, because the others didn f t make any 
bones about taking advantage of us, and we in the same 
manner didn t use any gloves with them. That would 
be some noisy meeting. One time we were holding a 
meeting and some matter with regard to a loan from the 
government came up on which we were all agreed in one 
way or another. But Krs. Willebrandt, who was from 
the Attorney General s office in Washington, came... 

Bacci.: Mabel Walker Willebrandt. 

Lanza: ...and questioned and wanted to hear from every member 
of the group how they felt about it. This was the only 
meeting where we were all in agreement, to get a loan 
from the government of four million dollars. Each 
person stood up at the meeting to express his opinion. 
There was one member who always sat next to me; that 
was Prank Giannlni of Tulare.* And Frank Giannini of 
Tulare was about my size but a little stronger, a little 
wider and a little stronger, and a little older than I 
was, and we were quite friendly. He had a habit of 
falling asleep while he was talking to you, if that is 
possible. And yet while he was asleep, by golly, he 
would wake up and he had heard everything, you know, 
and take part in the conversation. It was phenomenal, 
and everybody sort of talked about Frank s capacity 
to be awake when he was asleep. But this time when 
they were taking the opinion of each member, when it 
came to me, I got up and expressed my opinion, my 
consent. But once in a while I get excited and I talk 
loud; that is, I m more emphatic on certain expressions 
than others. When I got through someone said, "Now 
we ll hear from Mr. Giannlni, 11 who was next to me and 

*Frank Giannini, president of the Tulare Winery Company, 
became a member of the board of directors of Fruit 
Industries as a representative of the "Elba Land Company 11 
at some date prior to the end of 1930- 

Lanza: was asleep. Apparently the only thing that was ringing 
in his ears when he was called was my voice. So he 
got up, he says, "I agree with Mr. Lanza. You re all 
a pack of thieves and scoundrels. I m going to have 
you all put in jail." [Laughter] Everybody sat and 
laughed because it was the only time when we were in 
agreement, but Prank thought that another row was in 
process. [Laughter] 

Well, anyway, in connection with that loan of the 
government, they wanted the okay from every member. 
Then those of the minority thought we had them; that 
is, we had the majority in number. When they came to 
me, I said, "I will not agree to it. I refuse." 

"Well," they said, "that isn t cooperation." 

And I said, "Where did you hear of the word 
cooperation?" We got into an argument, and they said, 
"Weil, what can we do?" 

I said, "Well, then get rid of me." 
"How can we get rid of you?" 

I said, "You give me back my properties and I ll 
give you back your certificate of stock." 

They said, "But we ve had expenses. We ve incurred 

"All right. How much is my share?" 

They figured it out and said about $20,000. "All 
right, I ll give you $20,000 and give me back my 
property." It was agreed.* We were going to get the 

*According to the minutes of the August 2?t 1931f meeting 
of the board of directors of Fruit Industries, Ltd., 
"The Colonial Grape Products Company of California 
requested the privilege of removing plants and equipment 
and inventory from Fruit Industries." The request, it 
was noted, was made by Mr. Lanza. A resolution was 
passed authorizing the corporation s secretary and 
general counsel "to negotiate with Mr. H. 0. Lanza to 
effect a satisfactory agreement," and laying down certain 
terms and conditions. 


Lanza: loan, but there was delay, and there was delay, and 
there was delay. Finally I served notice on all of 
them. I said, n l f m going to Washington and I m goin& 
to prefer charges against all of you for graft, every 
thing in the code." And by Jove they mentioned a date 
and we all went to Washington. You see, this agreement 
to let me off on the payment of $20,000 was delayed, 
delayed, delayed. That s why I lost my patience. So 
we all went to Washington and we went before the Farm 
Board. The chairman of the Farm Board was the rnan who 
was president of the Harvester International... 

Bacci.: Is that McCormick? 

Lanza: That company, but the fellow s name was not HcCormick. 
Anyway he was the chairman of the Farm Board. By the 
way, by that time while I was in Washington I found 
that the conditions were worse than what I had expected 
about these fellows. Wasting a lot of money through 
this politician that I told you came and organized us. 

I said then, "If you will give me my property 
right now, I ll pay you $4-0,000 instead of $20,000. 
But I want it now. " So they told Mrs. Willebrandt, 
and Mrs. Willebrandt stated to the chairman of the 
Board that they wished an order be made as soon as 
possible because Mr. Lanza, one of the members, insists 
on having the disposition made. And this gentleman, the 
chairman of the Board I can t think of his name, it s 
at the tip of my tongue, it may come to me. He said, 
"Well, Mr. Lanza should realize that these matters that 
come before the Board take a little time. But you may 
assure Mr. Lanza that there will be no unnecessary 
delay." He didn t know that I was standing in front 
of him. 

After the meeting we went into the office of the 
Attorney General of the United States, who was 
attending this meeting he was later appointed Supreme 
Court justice. I can t think of his name now. Anyway, 
he was then the Attorney General, and when we went into 
his office he said to me, "Well, Mr. Lanza, this is a 
cooperative. Any privilege that we extend to you must 
be extended to any other members that wish to avail 

I said, "I have no objection to that. My concern 
is only that I want to get out." So the thing went 
through and I went out. And I continued business. 


Lanza: Some time later, about a year later, then this fellow 
Garrett, who was the leader of the majortiy, he 
wanted to get out. But they didn t know how to get 
out. So he sent to me one of his associates, Frank 
Hope, who was a heck of a fine fellow, a likeable chap. 
And I guess he knew that Hope could ask me for a favor 
while he couldn t, see. And Prank Hope came to me 
and he said, "Horace, do you mind coning with me to 
see a lawyer in Washington and explain to him how you 
got out?" 

I said, "Pine. I have no objection." So I go 
with Frank Hope into the office of these attorneys for 
Garrett, and in the course of the conversation I said, 
"Look, when I got out we went into the office of the 
Attorney General and this is what transpired. He said, 
A privilege we extend to you must be extended to other 
members. " He said, "Did he? What was the date? 
Because all those things are matters of record. " And 
he goes afterwards and finds that, and Garrett gets out 
through what I had a year before. [Laughter]* 


Lanza: Well, at about this time one of the members of the 

seven, who owned the California Grape Products Company, 
came to me. 

Teiser: Who was he? 
Bacci.: Victor Repetto? 

Lanza: No. Well, this fellow was at the head of the California 
Grape Products Company. He said, "Buy me out. Buy me 
out." I said, "What the hell would I buy you out with?" 
He says, "You don t have to have any money." I said, 
"What do you mean?" He said, "Let me show you that it s 
a bargain." 

Well, the more he was anxious to sell the more I 
was inclined to leave well enough alone. Anyway he 
showed me that it was a bargain. He was concerned 
he owed $319,000 and he was concerned that if they 

*See also p. ^1. 

**Por the early history of the California Grape Products 

Company, see the interview in this series with Antonio 



Lanza: foreclosed on him they vrould take not only his property 
but a deficiency judgement, which night affect some of 
his properties in New York. He lived in New York, 
although his property was here. The vineyards and the 
plants were here. So he said, "Look. I will take 
250,000, payable $50,000 every two years, over a 
period of ten years, without interest." 

The offer was very fair, I thought, rather low. 
But I had had troubles of my own, which were sub 
stantially this: I had been on the board of directors 
of a bank in Buffalo. This bank through the crash of 
1929, or shortly afterwards, went under and all of the 
fellows on the board, we were all stuck. I was stuck 
in this manner. I was a very close friend of the 
president. He had been a young man in my days when I 
was a young man. And he wanted me to take some stock 
to buy the stock of the bank and hold up the price. 

But when I said, "Look, I haven t got any cash" 
I already owned some stock but I didn t have cash to 
buy stock to hold up the price he said, "But the bank 
will loan you the money." So he would loan me the 
money to buy his own stock, and so did the other 
members. So we all got stuck, and they came here to 
San Francisco and sued me for a deficiency besides 
taking what properties I had and stocks and what not, 
that they had in their possession. They got a judgement 
against me for $128,000, here in the federal court. 

So I was in that sort of trouble when this 
gentleman was trying to sell me his business. But he 
said to me, "Now, look. I ll give you $5.000 cash if 
you ll buy me out." He said, "With the 5000 that 
I ll give you, you ve got enough money to pay your 
expenses for one month your office help, your telephone 
bill, blah blah. At the end of the month, if you think 
you ve made a good deal, it s yours. If you think 
you ve made a bad deal, you walk out. You spend my 
money, not yours." 

So, gee whiz, could I afford to turn down an 
offer like that? The fellow simply had confidence in 
me and thought I could make it a go. So I made the 
deal, and I went to my partner, Federspiel. He knew 
that I had been talking with this party before. I 
said, "I made this agreement now. We can take it in 
the name of the company, or we can take it in the name 
of our own, as partners, or any tay that you please." 


Lanza: "Well," he says, "I d like to think it over." I 
said, "Certainly. Here s the contract." I gave him 
the contract. The next day, and the next day, and the 
next day, no answer. So I talked to him. I said, "Mr. 
Federspiel, will you make up your mind? I f ve got to do 
something here, either get in or stay out." 

He said he wanted time. So we called Mr Leichter, 
the son-in-law of Mr. Schilling, and we met, and I was 
for taking it over in the company s name, but the other 
two were not. They said, "Why do you want to get into 
more business? Haven t we got a setup by which you 
can develop all the business that you want?" 

I said, "This is a bargain. This is a bargain and 
I m not going to let it pass." "Well," they said, "vie 
are not willing to go into it." I said, "Gentlemen, 
have I put the cards on the table?" That was the very 
expression, I recall. 

They said, "Well, there s no question of cards on 
the table. You ve always been very fair. But we 
simply don t like to extend our business." "Well then," 
I said, "gentlemen, I m going to take it in my own 
name." Federspiel said, "What will you do with your 
interests here" in this company?" I owned a half interest 
at that time. I said, "I ll do what you re doing, Mr. 
Leichter. I ll be a silent partner." 

Well, that was final, and I went ahead and bought 
this all in my own name. Roosevelt then, as the law 
changed, the Prohibition law changed, and the following 
year overnight, the way I had lost in the crash of 29, 
in the same manner overnight, booml I became rich 
again. Because all the vineyards there were 1,600 
acres of land, two plants, one at Ukiah, one at Delano, 
and a warehouse in New York, you see. And that was the 
start of the upgrade after that. 

Teiser: What was the legislation that Roosevelt approved? 

Lanza: The repeal of Prohibition. And wine went up. [Laughter] 

Teiser: That s a good note to stop on for today. 


(Interview with Horace 0. Lanza with Comments 
by Harry Baccigaluppi. San Francisco, 
February 5, 1969) 

Teiser: When we stopped last time you were telling about your 
good fortune right after Repeal, and I thought I 
would ask you a question just at the beginning, before 
you continue the narrative. Since you were one of the 
people most experienced in the wine industry at that 
time, you must have had quite definite thoughts about 
the way the industry would go and should go in this 
new period. What did you think at that time? What 
did you feel should be done? 

Lanza: I felt that there was a future in the industry. When 
I started to become interested in the industry, 
knowing that I was not well equipped in the start, I 
did considerable reading. And particiilarly I recall 
I started with a little treatise on wine making by 
Husrnan.* He was one of the first men in the country, 
and I think he was from Missouri, and he wrote a 
pamphlet about grapes and wine making particularly with 
regard to the labrusca type, which were the type of 
grapes grown back East. And that, among other things, 
explained that in those years when the grapes do not 
mature properly and when the sugar is low, you may add 
sugar to bring the fermentation to the desired result 
you wanted to get, about the alcohol. Well, that 
process was called "gallizing", which as I recall was 
a Frenchman that devised the scheme: how to improve 
the production of wine by adding sugar and the 
corresponding amount of water and acid that you 
wanted. That got me then interested in French authority. 
I could read French, though I couldn t speak, but I 
could read French as easily as I could read Italian 
or English. And I read a great deal of the authorities, 
both Italian and French, on wine making, and they in 
turn would be discussing in their treatise German 
authorities; that is to say, they would quote the 
German authority so-and-so. So I felt that I got a 
smattering of wine making from all parts of Europe. 

*Husman, George, 

American Grape Growing and Wine 


Lanzas I believed that there was a future for the wine 
business because the people of Europe that had 
populated the Americas, South Africa, Australia, 
wherever they went they carried the wine tradition. 
And so I thought that wine in this country was going 
to develop as it did in other parts of the world. I 
went further: I believed that the grape is sort of 
a wild bit of nature, of agriculture, that it is 
found, as I got from the authorities, in the temperate 
zone. You don t find it in the equator, where it s 
too hot, nor in the arctic where it s too cold. But 
you find it wild, in the wild state, and by the law 
of selection yovi have developed the type of grapes 
that make the best wines. 

Well, if that is correct, I reasoned, then in 
the United States one must be able to grow grapes in 
any state, because of the wild varieties that have been 
found along rivers and streams. Only you could not 
grow the same type of grapes. That is to say, the 
type of grapes that would thrive in Texas would not 
thrive in Montana, or Utah. But there would be other 
varieties. So I believed that there was a field that 
promised, you see, development. So I had faith and I had 
confidence that the business was going to grow, more 
wine was going to be used, that the same kind of 
people you would find in South Africa and Australia 
and Canada would develop the business here. And that 
was the thing that gave me sort of hope or confidence 
that I could make something out of it. 

Teiser: When we last spoke, you were just coming to the 
period after Repeal. 

Lanza: That s right. At that time when I acquired the 

California Grape Products I had one plant at Delano, 
a winery at Delano, and one at Ukiah. Shortly after 
my taking over the California Grape Products, it came 
to pass that I was not satisfied in keeping my interest 
in the old Colonial Grape Products Company. So after 
some negotiation we effected a liquidation, by which. . . 

Teiser: That s the Pederspiel interests? 

Lanza: Yes... by which I acquired a plant and vineyard at 

Windsor, vineyards and a winery at St. Helena, and a 
plant at Napa, a plant at Elk Grove; and I operated 
those rather successfully. But the wine business, 
when Repeal came, made an upsurge immediately and then 


Lanza: It slackened. We weren t making so ouch money for the 
investment. Things were rather tough in the late 
thirties. Then the war broke out in *4l, and things 
iv T ent way up. I think It was during that war that 
grapes could not be used for the manufacture of 
intoxicating liquor. 

Bacci.: It was those varieties that were suitable for food, 
which meant principally the Thompson and the Muscat, 
which represented a large portion of the grapes. 

Lanza: That s it exactly. But immediately after we went into 
war in 4-1, prices went up and again I was in flush 
[laughter] conditions with plenty of money. 


Lanza: About 42 or 43 I acquired another winery. 
Bacci.: That was 1943. 

Lanza: In 1943 the Italian Vineyard Company of Guasti, 
California. And that comprised a plant there at 
Guasti, near Ontario, and 5000 acres of vineyard. 

Teiser: What had been the history of that organization? 

Lanza: Well, that was very interesting in its start. One 
evening I was entertaining a friend of mine who was 
vice-president of the Garrett & Company, Cucamonga. 
We were having lunch at the Fior d Italia rather a 
dinner an evening at the Pi or d Italia. 

Bacci.: In San Francisco. 

Lanza: While we were eating, Nick [Nicola] Giulii, the 

president of the Italian Vineyard Company was there 
in the dining room. He saw us, and he came over to 
greet us, shake hands with us. And we stood up, and 
then he walked away. This vice-president of Garrett & 
Company, Roy Weller, said to me, "You know that they 
are for sale," meaning the Italian Vineyard Company. 
I said, "The hell you say!" He said, "Yes, they are." 
I said, "By God let s buy them!" I said it in a sense 
of being facetious, you know, Joking... But we went 
on with our dinner and forgot all about it. 


anza: About two or three months later I received a 

letter from him, from Weller, where he enclosed a lot 
of statements. He said, "I don t know whether you 
were joking the night we were at the Fior d Italia 
and I told you the Italian Vineyard Company was for sale 
But whether you were joking or not, here are the 
papers, if you are interested. My company has been 
considering the purchase of it, but they have finally 
decided against it, because of their contract with the 
Canada Dry Company, who were distributing their wines." 

I read all of the papers, the statement of this 
company, and I could hardly believe that the thing was 
for sale or that anybody couldn t buy it, because I 
could see from the statement that I could buy them 
with their own money. So when I got through reading 
all these papers it was In the morning on a Friday 
morning I called Weller on the telephone. He i-ias in 
Los Angeles. And I asked him a lot of questions. I 
got through with him, then I called another fellow that 
knew the Italian Vineyard Company s affairs, asked him 
a lot of questions. I got through with him and I called 
Weller again, asked him some more questions. "Well," 
he said, "if you re interested, why in hell don t you 
come do\i here? They re going to hold a meeting 
tomorrow at 10 o*clock to consider the disposition of 
it at any price." 

So I agreed. I asked him to call the second man 
I had called and meet me at the station the next 
morning, on Saturday morning. In those days it was 
difficult to get accommodation on the train. But by 
luck and anxiety, some fellow was taken off the train. 
That is, the ticket was removed because a "government 
official" needed that space. [Laughter] I mention 
that, how things just happen that ordinarily wouldn t 
come to pass, as if just fate wanted it that way. The 
next morning these two gentlemen met me. We went to 
the meeting, which was held in Los Angeles but I ve 
forgotten the name of this building. We went to this 
meeting. It opened at 10 o clock, and by 10:30 I had 
made an offer to buy them. And they accepted it. And 
I signed an agreement, just a temporary agreement, and 
deposited $50,000 for the purchase of the whole 
organization. And I didn t know at the time whether 
I had $50,000 in the bank or not. I thought I did, 
but I wasn t so sure. And I didn t mean to kite, but 
I mean I was so unprepared that I didn t know, and of 
course I felt that if I didn t have exactly $50,000 


Lanza: I d telephone one of my boys and say go to the bank, 
see Mr. So-and-so and make that account good, and I 
thought I could obtain what I needed. So I bought it, 
I think for... 

Bacci.: 3,4-00 shares at 600 a share. That would be $2, 0^0, 000. 

Lanza: But altogether there were certain stockholders who 
wouldn t sell. They didn t want to sell. It would 
have amounted to about $2,250,000, as I recall. This 
is in round numbers. I took it over. Now, the reason 
why the property was not valued on the street was 
because the management had made a contract with the 
Canada Dry Company before the war, before prices went 
up, where they tied themselves for 15 years at the 
price that was prevailing at that time, let us say 
13 a case. 

Teiser: Was this the wine that was sold under the IVC label? 

Lanza: That s right, under the IVC label by the Canada Dry. 
And the vineyard company, as they wanted to sell it, 
I learned afterwards that they had offered it to five 
or six liquor interests like Schenley. They had 
offered it to Seagram, they had offered it to the 
Italian Swiss Colony, Di Giorgio, and a number of 
firms; and they had all turned it down, because of 
this contract of exclusive distribution. I reasoned 
that the Canada Dry were a gilt-edged concern, what we 
used to call a blue chip, and if I showed them where 
they could make $2 when they were making only $1, that 
they would be willing to go along with me and divide 
that extra dollar. I mean, figuratively speaking, 
that if I could show them where they could make more 
money than they were making that they would be willing 
to divide that profit with me. 

Also when I read the contract I could see that 
the contract was a tight, absolutely tight contract 
written by two sets of lawyers who knew the legal 
niceties of a contract but had no sense of the business 
at all. The contract was air-tight, but I know that 
in any business, from experience, unless there is 
cooperation between the production department and the 
selling department they are headed for the rocks. That 
was not part of the contract. Do you see what I mean? 
That consideration was over and beyond the contract. 
So I immediately invited the Canada Dry to meet with 
me where I d have a plan to show them. And through 
Harry [Baccigaluppi], who was then in New York they 

Lanza: were located in Philadelphia... 
Bacci.: No, they were in New York. 

Lanza: ...they made an appointment to send one of their men 

to confer with me. An appointment was made to be held 
in the offices of the Italian Vineyard Company in 
Los Angeles. So I went down there on that day. And I 
waited for the appointment at 10 o clock. Eleven 
o clock. About 11:30 I asked our man, I said, "Phone 
this hotel and see if probably the gentlemen have 
started, been in an accident, a taxi or what not, and 
let s find out." He called and got this vice-president 
and he said, "If Lanza wants to see me he knows the 
way to this hotel. It s up to him." When my man 
repeated that conversation to me, I took the receiver 
away from him and slammed it down. I said, "He ll 
live to regret it." Maybe I went a little bit rougher 
in my language than that. And sure enough I paid no 

And then I wanted to start the war. I didn t want 
to wait until the war was started. I wanted to start 
the war. Just about then on comes the government. 
They had gone over the records of the laboratory of 
the Italian Vineyard Company and they had found that 
the chemist, in starting a culture for wine making, 
had used a pint of apple juice, for the purpose of 
getting better fermentation through the malic acid in 
the apple. That is to say, his theory was that the 
malic acid will excite the little ferments to better 
activity and get a better culture from start. Well, 
this pint was put into a quart of the liquid, of the 
grape Juice. The quart was put into five gallons; the 
five gallons into 50; the 50 into 500; finally used 
in the winery as the yeast of fermentation. 

So the government s point when they came to me was, 
this is in violation, because you have used a fruit 
other than grape in the process of wine making. Quick 
as lightning it came to me: here s some dynamite I 
can use. I said, "You re right." I said, "All this 
happened before I came here, so I m sorry. What can 
we do?" "Well," he says, "it s a violation, flake an 
offer and compromise." I said, "All right, what do 
you want the penalty to be?" He said, "We want you to 
pay 5,000." "Okay." So I immediately paid the 
$5*000. This culture and this had gone right through 
the winery, do you see? So I took their (Canada Dry s) 



Bacci. : 

Bacci. : 

Bacci. : 

leading brand that they were selling the most of, and 
I stopped it. I stopped it and they said, "How come?" 
And I explained to then that the government had found 
that there had been contamination and stopped the sale 
because it was not a pure wine. They couidn f t afford 
to give them a wine that was condemned, do you see? 
So I stopped the leading brand. 

What brand was that? 

That was the Cucamonga brand. 

Whatever it was, I don t remember the details. So 
they then wrote and to stop me they ordered, they 
wanted all the wine that I had by orders so there 
would be an immediate sale. And I wrote back, "Sorry, 
I can t let you have all the wine. This company has 
developed over the years two types of distribution of 
business. One is the bottled goods and one is the 
bulk. And one year the bottled goods is in greater 
demand, another year it s the bulk. We can t afford 
to shut off one or the other. Your contract provides 
only for the bottled goods, not for the bulk. So we 
can t accept." 

So they sent back an order for over a million 
cases. I wrote back, "Sorry, can t accept it. Our 
equipment is capable of producing only 25,000 cases a 
month, and in the period of 12 months the most that we 
can accept is 300,000 cases." I didn t say that I 
could put three shifts; I didn t say that I could put 
more equipment. You see what I mean? Where there is 
no cooperation between the production and the sales 
department any business is headed for the dumps. 
Whoever wrote that contract of 15 years didn t know 
that, you see. All they knew was the legal require 
ments. So it went on. It went on for about a year. 
And nobody coming to see me at the end of a year. 

We raised the prices. 

I told him that I would raise the prices, 
but we were... 

We gave notice that we would. 

We didn t, 

Yes, that we would. So on comes a vice-president of 
the Canada Dry, a fellow by the name of Mr. [Bill] 
Williams, a young attorney about 45 years of age, and 
he was a fine chap, a fine gentleman to talk with and. 

OPA wine advisory committee members photographed May 
12, 1944, at close of 4 day meeting in Washington, 
D.C. Standing, left to right: G. Taylor, consultant; 
W. Taylor; J. Vai; H. Wente; B.V. Granfield; L.K. 
Marshall; J. Bardenheier, Jr.; W.B. Bridgman; E.W. 
Wootton. Seated, left to right: C.Gelman; R. Bingham, 
OPA; W.D. Sanderson, OPA; A.G. Fredricks, OPA; H.O. 
Lanza; F. Butte. Photograph courtesy of Harry 


Lanza: a good businessman too. So he came to see me. Ke had 
been a lawyer for the Securities Exchange Commission 
before going with them, so you see he was quite a 
capable fellow. He came to see me. He was very nice 
and I felt that I could see a gentleman the minute 
he started to talk and I tried to be just as gentle 
manly myself. But while we were talking we were having 
a few drinks. There was...vjas it in the house or in 
the office building? 

Bacci.: That was in the office. You hadn f t taken him over to 
the entertainment center yet. 

Lanza: There was a nice room there, well furnished and very 

Teiser: This is at the winery? 

Lanza: At the winery. So he started to talk about this raise 
of price. They weren t going to raise the price. By 
that time my tongue was rather loose. I said, "Williams. 
I m telling you that on the first of April if you don t 
agree to pay $1 per case higher than you re paying now, 
I m going to stop shipments altogether. And I know 
goldarned well you re not going to take it lying down. 
Still knowing that, I m telling you that if you don t 
agree to pay $1 more on the first of April you re not 
going to get any shipments." 

"Well, what the hell is the matter with you, 
Lanza? That isn t cooperation." 

"Where did you hear of the word cooperation ?" 
Then I went through the whole rigamarole. "Well," he 
said, "is it that damned contract you re worried about?" 
He says, "Write your own contract." I said, "I don t 
know as I want a different contract. But I ll think 
about it." And we left it that way. The next day I 
went to this friend of mine of the Garrett Company who 
was having dinner with me at the Pior d Italia, who had 
sent me all the papers. I said, "How would like to buy 
the Italian Vineyard Company?" 

He said, "Oh, no, not as long as there is that 
contract." "Well," I said, "would you buy if you had 
a contract of your own liking?" "Oh, well, we might." 

I said, "All right." Then I went on and told him 
this conversation with Mr. Williams. I said, "You go 

Lanza: down there and say that you represent me. You tell 
them the kind of a contract you want and say that s 
the kind of contract I will accept if they re going to 
change it. Would that be a deal?" 

"Oh," he says, "it ll be a delightful..." I said, 
"Wait a minute now, wait a minute." I said, "You 
should know first about the price." He said, "All 
right, what s the price?" I said, "$1,500 a share." 
I had paid $600. He said, "Agreeable, providing we 
get what we want." 

They went to the Canada Dry. They got the 
contract and they bought from me at $1,500, which made 
it about $^,750,000, made $2.5 million for myself and 
my associates. That was the story of the... but, 
Garret t & Company made money on it. Not only did they 
make money in the business, but the value of that 
vineyard, you know, with the buildings and what not, 
I understand that they made $12,000,000 to $15,000,000 
themselves afterwards. But that was conditions, you 

Bacci.: That was sometime later, of course. 

Teiser: They were producing wine under the Virginia Dare 

Lanza: That s right. And finally they sold out, they got out 
of it. But that was the story of the... [laughter] 
And at that time when I had that Italian Vineyard. 
Company and the other plants and vineyards that I got 
from California Grape Products and from the Colonial 
Grape Products Company, I figured that I had seven 
plants, 8,000 acres of vineyards, and I ve forgotten 
what else. I think it was about the time that I had 
sold no, I really sold after Birdie passed away. I 
had a daughter that was the pupil of my eye in the 
sense that she had been the baby. 

Bacci.: When you say sold, you mean when you had not sold the 
Italian Vineyard Company. I think that came later. 



Lanza: Then, as I say, this daughter that had been the pupil 
of my eye, she passed away. And my nature changed 
immediately. I thought, what the heck is life? Why 
are we brought here? Why are we ticking away? Why 
are we striving and fighting? I lost heart, and I 
began to sell. As I sold the Italian vineyards, I 
sold all of my other properties except one unit at 
Delano. And the reason for retaining this unit at 
Delano was that the war was over or about over, as I 
recall. There was shortage. And I thought to myself, 
if I sell the last unit these fellows who have helped 
me to make money in the past, these fellows who were 
really responsible for my success, where will they be? 
They ll be out on the street. And I thought, no, I m 
going to keep this last unit and I*m going to give it 
to them. 

About that time [Joseph] Di Giorgio and I were 
not friendly. We had been very close friends in our 
younger days, but through some misunderstanding late 
in life we were far from being friendly at all. He 
wanted to buy this last unit, and he asked a former 
associate of mine, Victor Repetto, to try and get me 
to sell to him this last unit. And he would pay 
$500,000 over and above the book value. Now he didn t 
know what the book value was, but he did know that of 
course whatever the book value was because of the 
existing conditions, that he would pay 500,000. But 
I decided no. I had made plenty of money on my other 

So I called six or seven customers of mine to 
whom I felt indebted through the business I had 
enjoyed with them, and that included Bardenheier of 
St. Louis, Heublein of Hartford, D.W. Putnam of 
Hammondsport , Pleasant Valley Wine Company of 
Hammonds por t , Engels and Krudwig of Sandusky, Ohio, 
Lombardo Wine Company of Chicago, and A.VF. Russo of 
Predonia. And I called them together and explained 
to them my offer. They could have the property at 
book value. The inventories, particularly, for 
instance, in the book value was something like 4-0 cents 
a gallon, but because of the government fixing prices 
under the O.P.A. it was $1.40. And I said to the boys 
that they could have it at book value, so they got it 
at iK) when it was valued at 1^0. But, as I say, that 
year when I sold all these properties I sold at the 


Lanza: peak of the market [laughter] but I didn t knpw I 

was selling at the peak of the market. I was selling 
because I wanted to retire. I was disgusted with 
everything. But it happened and I sold at the peak. 
Some time afterwards everything went down lower, and 
of course they came back later. 

When these fellows got together one of them said, 
"Well, look Boss." (They used to call me "Boss" as a 
sort of a nickname.) "You say that we re all darned 
nice fellows, and we believe it because you say so. 
But we don t know each other. Now if you stay, keep 
a little interest, if you stay in and keep us together, 
we re ready to go. But unless you get in, we don t 
know whether we want to go in." And I thought it 
sounded all right. So I said, "All right, I ll keep 
20 per cent of mine. You boys can have the 80 per cent." 

And that was a mistake as it developed. You can t 
watch a car when you re driving on the highway 30 per 
cent of the time and go to sleep on the other 20 per 
cent. You ll run off the road, get into trouble. 
That was a mistake, because conditions, as I say, 
started to go down. I had to take back some of these 
fellows that came in. And that s how I got into the 
business again and had to keep this plant going. I 
had vineyards and I planted more vineyards. 

Teiser: This was in the later forties? 

Lanza: Oh, yes. That was about 46 or 4?. 

Bacci.: The organization of this new group caiae about in 46. 

Lanza: 46 or 4?. And also when we formed this new company, 
because of the value of the vineyards that would have 
increased the purchase price so high, the fellows 
said, "We can t afford to take the vineyards. We ll 
just take the plant and the inventories." So I 
retained the vineyards. Later, around 50, I submitted 
to the fellows, I said, "Look, I don t want to have 
the responsibility of the vineyards. You either take 
them or I m going to dispose of them to other people. 
If you take them, I ll take stock." Well, they met 
and they talked among themselves and they came to the 
conclusion they couldn t afford either one or the other. 
So I went and tried to sell them, or rather offered it 
to my employees. I had 2,300 acres of vineyards 
around the plant at Delano. They boys met and they 


Lanza.: agreed, all those that were working for me, they 

agreed this fellow is going to take this piece, this 
fellow the other. While we re negotiating, on comes 
Mr. [W.B.] Camp of Bakersfield and one of his 
associates, Jeppi. And they offered to buy 
some of the vineyards. Well, we finally agreed to 
let them have they bought 1,600 acres. The other 
700 acres were divided among some of my employees. 
They were to have, and they did get, the vineyards 
without one cent down. All that I requested of them 
was, I wanted to know if they could afford to bring 
the crop in with their own labor and money and without 
wages . 

Bacci. : These are the employees you re talking about. 

Lanza: The employees. But they all made good and some still 
own their land. I remember one of the boys who was 
sort of a vineyard superintendent, and a friend of his 
who was assistant superintendent; they took 2^0 acres 
at $*K)0 an acre, and they still own it. And they own 
other vineyards that they got from profits made out 
of that 2bO acres. But that 2*1-0 acres is probably 
worth $300,000 now, at least $1,500 an acre. And I 
was very glad. 

But it just went to show that I wanted to get 
oxit. I just wanted to get out, retire. When I sold 
those vineyards and then this winery had no vineyards 
it began to see trouble. They needed more capital and 
they needed to pay the going price, not the cost of 
production. So I, having taken over the interests of 
some of the original fellows who backed out, I again 
began to buy land and plant vineyards. I planted 1,200 
acres and got again into the business, although I ve 
been inactive I ve been interested financially but 
not ... 

Teiser: This was in the fifties that you then planted more 
acreage again, is that right? 


Lanza: Yes. After selling not only that, but after I sold to 
Mr. Camp and Jeppi, there was one year where we bought 
the crop and we almost, almost paid them for that crop 
what they paid for the purchase price of the 1,600 
acres [laughter]. It just shows the ups and downs 
of the food business. 



Telser: I have read that throughout all this period, perhaps 
from the thirties right through the fifties, you 
were planting unusual grape varieties, varieties that 
you had brought from Italy. Is that correct? 

Lanza: Some. 

Bacci.: You must have seen my [memorandum] pad. [Laughter] 

Lanza: Yes. To start with in the past the growing of grapes 
throughout the state followed the customs and beliefs 
of the various people that grew grapes. That is to 
say, the fellows of Spanish extraction favored the 
Spanish type of grapes to make the Spanish wine. The 
Germans, the German type of grapes to make their white 
wine. The Italians, the Italian type of grapes that 
made the chianti, you know, like Asti. And so on with, 
you know, with the various nationalities. The 
Armenians, their type of grapes, like the raisins and 
so on. All right. 

Bacci.: Thompsons, and Muscats. 

Lanza: Now grapes in those days when we had no refrigeration 
cars to ship back East (you couldn t ship grapes here 
and expect to get grapes back East), they were more 
or less a local commodity. You couldn t ship them 
anywhere, so that the fellows were growing grapes and 
building little wineries as they did in the old 
country. The man that had, say, 50 or 100 acres of 
grapes, he didn t expect to sell it out in the market, 
so he built a little winery, and his little winery 
was probably only 10,000 gallons capacity, just enough 
for his crop. And so on, all along the state. And 
the result of that, in the process of evolution, as 
it was, in the South they began to make the port type, 
the sherry type of wine. The Italian Vineyard the 
usual table wines. (And by the way before we get 
through I want to tell you the start of the Italian 
Vineyard because it would be interesting.) The Germans, 
say, in Napa County, would have white wines; the 
Italians at Asti would have red wines, with all little 

The wine business finally developed some leaders 
in distribution beyond the confines of California. 


Lanza: Like Mr. [Claris] Schilling, like Mr. [P.O.] Rossi of 

the Italian Swiss vineyards, and like [SecondoJ Guasti 
of the Italian Vineyard. And these fellows, besides 
sending to market wines of their own production, they 
would go around and buy these snail lots of wines, 
10,000 or 15,000, 20,000 [gallons], and bring them to 
a central point where they do blending and sell from 
there. Like Kr. Schilling, for instance, he had a 
vineyard and a winery at Evergreen. That s on the 
hillsides of San Jose, as I recall. 

But he opened a plant here in San Francisco and 
he would go around in the various sections of wine 
production and buy every year whatever he needed. 
And I recall his telling me that he always viaited till 
the market was opened by his competitors, like Kr. 
Hossi, [Charles] Bundschu, Lachman & Jacobi and so on, 
and then he would go out and offer two cents higher. 
But he never bought all the wines that the producer 
had on hand. He simply tasted and took the cream. 
Do you see why he was paying two cents higher? He said 
to me, "I would pay two cents higher, but when I would 
sell my wine I d get 10 cents higher than my competitor." 
And because he would pay that two cents higher, they 
always waited for him to come around before they would 
sell. That s why he had the opportunity of letting 
his competitors go and establish the market, that is 
offer, say, eight cents a gallon, but he would pay 10 
cents, only take the cream, and then his competitors 
would buy the balance at eight cents. That was his 

Well, as I say, the development of wine making 
followed the customs and the habits and the likes and 
dislikes of the people that made them, of the grape 
growers. Now, at that time we didn t have the idea 
that the only place you could grow and make good wine 
would be, say, the Napa Valley or the northern coast. 
That is a matter that was developed by the following 
generation of wine people because good wine men did 
not live in the hot Fresno [area], do you see? They 
lived in the cool city near the coast, and there is 
where they would develop their vineyards and their 
plants. The notion, though, in the last 30 or *K) years 
has been that you could grow grapes only, and make good 
wine, only in the coast counties. But that is a theory 
that I never adhered to. I didn t believe that. This 
condition of the section was further aggravated by 
the professors of the Department of Agriculture at 


Lanza: Davis, all of whom were novices, in the wine business, 
because they were young men that came into the wine 
business really after the repeal of the Volstead Act. 

During the Prohibition period there was no 
incentive for young men to go into that business. But 
after Repeal there was an influx of young men going 
to Davis, and they began to teach and to announce their 
opinions, based on what they learned from books or 
observations; if they went to Europe where did they go? 
To Prance, to Germany, to some parts of Italy or to 
Spain, and learn some of the wine ideas from them. And 
they came here and they began to speak of methods of 
wine making and types of wine making that were being 
made in France, and in Germany and in what not. And 
they spread this belief that the only place to grow 
grapes was in Napa Valley, and to make the best wines 
was Hapa Valley and near the coast. That I did not 
sort of agree [with] in my own reasoning, because I 
had learned from study, as reading and my own observa 
tion, what goes to make a successful vineyard and the 
best quality. 

First is the climate condition. You can t grow 
grapes in the North Pole. You can t grow grapes in 
the Amazon. Second is the variety of grapes. You 
can t make, say, a nice Riesling from Concord grapes. 
You ve got to have the type. Third, it is the soil, 
and fourth, it is the cultural attention. Well, with 
regard to the soil, I ll explain it this way. I don t 
know if I ve stated this already. One time a number 
of us farmers were in Sacramento. They were holding 
a meeting where the Department of Agriculture wanted 
some appropriations made by the state to increase the 
facilities, say, at Davis. So on the day of the 
convention the head of the department made a welcome 
speech, and he made a statement that pleased me 
immensely. I had never heard it before, but I agreed 
100 per cent, and it was this. He said, "In this state 
we have lands that are below the level of the sea. We 
have lands that are two miles above the level of the 
sea. We ve got lands where it never rains. We have 
lands where it s always raining. We have lands where 
they never see the sun. We have lands where they 
always have the sun. We have lands where it never 
snows. We have lands that are always covered with 
snow. And we have lands in between those extremes." 

He was talking about the problems of the state 
when he was making that statement, but to me it meant 

Lanza: something else, do you see. We have all kinds of 

lands so that we have lands of the type they have in 
France, we have lands of the type they have in Germany, 
we have climate conditions, you see what I mean? And 
from that I was of the conviction that you could grow 
anything, anywhere, but only what s appropriate with 
that soil, that climate. And so far as the cultural 
practices, give our young men two years* study and 
they ll be just as good as the best German or the best 
Italian or best French grower, you know, the farmer, 
that they have. And also that our mean climate is ! 
better than that of France or Germany. 

One time I had in mind that I wanted to buy some 
land near the coast, and I thought that is probably 
as favorable as the land of France or Italy that is 
surrounded by water, you know. And I heard of 
Paderewski s vineyard near Paso Robles where he had 
planted 6*K) acres. Frost came one spring, killed his 
vineyard and he abandoned it. And I thought, well, 
that s a good district to have a vineyard. And I went 
to the University and I talked to one of the gentlemen 
that was at the head at that time. Ke said, "You re 
wrong about that district. That s no place to grow 
grapes." And he tells me about the frost killing. 
Here s the man at the head of the department. He 
knows more about vineyards than I do. He s lived here 
longer than I have, and I sort of believed it. That 
gentleman today is at the head of a vineyard of about 
^,000 acres not far from Paso Robles. Do you get it? 

So that, as I say, I was of the opinion that we 
could grow anything, anywhere. Hence when I started 
planting, I began to plant there in Delano, which is 
regarded as one of the hot districts of the state, 
San Joaquin [Valley]. And I planted Semillon and 
Chenin blanc and Ugni blanc and so forth all types 
of what I regarded as high-class grapes. And have done 
it successfully since. Since then there have been a 
lot of other fellows that gradually have come to the 

Teiser: Gallo? 

Lanza: Exactly. And others. You d be surprised how many 
others are after quality. . . 

Teiser: They used to say that high quality grapes couldn t be 
grown in the Central Valley because they had to be 


Teiser: irrigated, while they didn t have to be in the coastal 
valleys . 

Lanza: Well, irrigation, I tell you, is a necessity in any 
part of the state. 

Bacci.: But it s not practiced everywhere. 

Lanza: Absolutely, because when nature doesn t supply what 
you need yov ve got to supplement it. That is 
absolutely a necessity. 

Teiser: Did you bring varieties with you to Delano? 

Lanza: I brought three varieties. First I selected some of 

the best varieties that we had at St. Helena and Ukiah, 
where you see I had had vineyards and I also knew many 
of the growers that I could procure stuff from. And 
in addition to that I brought three varieties that I 
used to hear my father and my brother speak about, 
when I was a little fellow there at home, as being of 
excellent quality. And I brought those. And I brought 
several thousand of each variety, and to my surprise 
now, I created a condition that made the Department of 
Agriculture change their methods of importing cuttings. 
By that I mean when I brought in, oh, 40 to 50,000 
cuttings, it seems to me, I had no problem. But 
shortly after that the Department of Agriculture would 
not permit any to come without their first inspecting 
them at the border, you know, and it s troublesome now 
to get any. 

Teiser: What were the three varieties you brought? 

Lanza: One was Catarratto, and that s a white wine of the 
type of, like Semlllon or the German Riesling. One 
was Inzolia. It used to make good Marsala wine; 
that s a type of sweet sherry. And Trebbiano, now 
known as Ugni blanc. 

Teiser: That s a white? 

Lanza : Yes 

Teiser: Well, I will not keep you talking longer today. 

Bacci.: I Just want to make a memo of this. He wanted to tell 
you about the start of the Italian Vineyard Company. 

Lanza: Oh, yes. 

Bacci.: And in connection with that I think he ought to get 
in there somehow one little anecdote that should 
explain the great satisfaction he later had in 
acquiring the Italian Vineyard Company that came from 
his first visit to the Italian Vineyard Company when 
he was so royally treated. [Laughter] Remember? 

Lanza: Yes. [Laughter] You want that today, now? 
Teiser: I ll ask you to start with it next time. 

Lanza: Okay, fine. And some of the philosophy of Mr. 
Schilling would be of interest. 

Teiser: Yes, very much. 




(Interview with Horace 0. Lanza, Piedmont, 
California, February 11, 1969) 


When we were talking last time, you said that you 
would start with what your buying the Italian 
Vineyard Company had to do with an earlier experience 
you had with the Italian Vineyard Company. 

Oh, Harry called my attention to that. [Laughter] 
Well, that was the first time that I came to California, 
and that means about 1916, in November. My brother 
lived in Los Angeles, so I thought while I was here I 
would see some of the wine people and see if I could 
buy some of the wines to make it worthwhile. He 
suggested that we go and see the Italian Vineyard, 

was only about *K) miles or less from Los Angeles. 

So we went to Guasti was the name of the place, 
the station. It is practically where Cucamonga is 
located now. When I got there I asked to see some 
wines, if they had any for sale. They showed me some. 
The gentleman who was in charge of the selling end of 
it, as I supposed, he was secretary of the company, 
of the Italian Vineyard Company.* And I recognized him 
at once because two or three years before he had been 
in Buffalo and was a guest of the Italian consul there. 
I used to be attorney for the Italian consulate, so he 
invited me to lunch and I met this secretary of the 
vineyard company. I reminded him of it; yes, he 
remembered now, he recalled. I mention this to show 
the effect the following experience had on me. 

When I got through tasting some of the wine it 
was close to 12 o clock, so I asked him to give me a 
quotation on a substantial quantity and asked leave to 
go, to leave. He said, "No! Wait. Stay here and 
have lunch, and I will talk to Mr. Guasti," who was 
then living and he was there. 

Teiser: Was that Secondo Guasti senior or Junior? 

* James A. Barlotti. See p. 39- 


Lanza: Senior. And he said, "We will have the price so 

you ll know before you leave." Well, that was agreeable. 
I wasn t concerned about staying for lunch at all; 
that meant nothing to me. But if I could get the 
information that I wanted, you see, then there, I 
agreed to stay. 

Then he took me to a building that was a sort of 
a well, it looked like I should describe it as a 
barn. And that was the dining room for all of their 
hired help. And I was left there and asked to sit 
down. There was a long table for the help there. 
Right across from me there was a colored laborer. 
Right next to me there was an Indian. And I don t 
remember who else. And I sort of felt, you know, a 
little bit piqued here. This fellow knew that I was 
not an ordinary saloon keeper back East because he had 
had lunch with me in the Italian consulate. He asked 
me to stay for lunch. I didn t want to stay there for 
lunch. My brother was ready to take me and return to 
Los Angeles. And then being left like that while they 
went to have lunch elsewhere, you know, I presume in 
the ranch house I felt a little bit, you know, piqued 
about it. They gave me their quotation and I left. 

Next day or two days later, I came to San 
Francisco and I went to see the California Wine 
Association. Mr. Morrow was then manager of the 
California Wine Association. And Federspiel was then 
his assistant. Federspiel had been manager earlier 
of the Italian Swiss Colony, btit he mas Mr. Morrow s 
assistant. I asked to see wines. They had some samples 
brought up there. When the samples arrived, Mr. 
Federspiel said, "Well, it s lunch time. Let s go and 
have lunch. By the time we get through with lunch 
there ll be more samples here." And he took me to a 
nice restaurant and he was very courteous. And that 
made an impression with me. Here s a man that didn t 
know me at all. And yet he was a good enough businessman 
to be courteous and take me out to lunch. There the 
other fellow knew [laughter] that I wasn t an ordinary 
saloon keeper or what not. It made an impression upon 

Twenty-five years later, it must have been about 
25 years later, or maybe it was 26 years later, I owned 
the Italian Vineyard Company. [Laughter] And this 
fellow had sold his interest and he expected to be 
treated, you know, much better than anybody else. But 


Lanza: he was not treated any better than anybody else. 

And that was the irony of it what Harry meant, 
yo\\ see. The impression he made upon me as a poor 
businessman in the beginning. And I remember the old 
gentleman Guasti, and he was not so old he was very 
neatly dressed so he didn t look like a man that paid 
much attention to farming, but wore gloves. He wore 
gloves. Well, he himself the story that was told to 
me by some of the fellows that knew him, was this. 

He was a cook in a restaurant in Mexico City, in 
some city there in Mexico. When they had one of their 
usual revolutions, he was afraid for his own life and 
he left Mexico and went to Los Angeles. There in Los 
Angeles he started as a cook in the rear of a saloon, 
where they had the saloon in front and a sort of a 
restaurant in the back part. Then he married a 
daughter of the saloon keeper, and then it occurred to 
him, why not make some wine that he could use in regard 
to his restaurant? And he started to make a little 
wine for use in that back part of the saloon. And he 
started to become interested in the wine business. In 
1891 he and a few other Italians started the Italian 
Vineyard Company, and they incorporated with a capital 
of $50,000. And they set out to buy some land and 
plant vineyards. And this fellow that I said was 
their secretary... 

Teiser: What was his name? 

Lanza: James I can t think of his last name just now, but 
his first name was James. 

Teiser: Barlotti? 

Lanza: Yes, The question was where they should plant their 

vineyards, and they finally located two spots. One is 
where is now the swell part of Los Angeles near Santa 
Monica, just this side of Santa Monica. What s the 
name of that section where a lot of the actors and 
actresses have homes? Bel Air! Where Bel Air is now. 
And they finally decided on 5>000 acres there at 
Ontario, because at Bel Air there would be a fog some 
of the time and they felt that the fog was bad for 
the vineyards. But the price was very, very attractive. 
You can imagine; their whole capital was $50,000, so 
if they could have bought the 5,000 acres there and 

Lanza: build, they could have bought it I imagine very cheap. 
But they bought the 5000 acres at $5 an acre there 
at Ontario, and they decided on that because, as I 
say, there was no fear of fog there. 

Well, they went on and they became quite 
successful. In those days the wine business wasn t 
as well established or understood here. It was just 
a local affair. They had started the Italian Swiss 
Colony up north, you see, so they started the Italian 
Vineyard Company down south. And they started to make 
wine. The son of Secondo Guasti, the Junior, whom I 
came to know very well later in his life, told me this 
about his father: that he would hire a man (they 
knew how to make the table wines but they didn t know 
how to make sweet wines ) , he would hire a man to learn 
how this man was making port or sherry; then they d 
get rid of him and go on and learn the wine business 
in that fashion. 

In the 90 f s the best market in the country was 
Hew Orleans, not New York; New Orleans because there 
were the type of people there that used table wine. 
New York wasn t known so well for the wine business in 
those days, because most of the immigrants, you know, 
would sort of drink the wines from their part of the 
country, which they imported very cheap. So that s 
how the Italian Vineyard began to grow and make money. 
Then when Prohibition came on they made considerable 
money. And Guasti lived very well. He became very 
wealthy because he had bought a lot of land, a lot of 

I was invited at their house one time long before 
I bought their vineyard; but in the course of the 
business we had met here with regard to industry 
matters. And we were forming at that time a company 
called the Fruit Industries that I told you about the 
other day. Well, Guasti, young Guasti, was the 
president of that new combination, and at one time 
there was a meeting in Los Angeles and he invited all 
of us on the board of directors to his house. It was 
an elegant house, very well furnished, and I remember 
in the yard at the rear of the house there were a lot 
of statuary and more like an Italian villa. 

At that dinner, for the first time in my life 
and the only time in my life, because I never had a 
similar opportunity, I sat at a table where they had 

Lanza: gold service. And I had never seen gold service, you. 
know. And they had some of the service solid gold, 
some was part gold and part silver, and some was solid 
silver. So every place had these three types, and I 
didn t know when you should use the gold or when you 
should \\se the part gold and part silver, nor when to 
use the whole silver. But Secondo Guasti sat next to 
nie, and we were engaged in conversation. I would 
always wait for him to pick the fork or the knife or 
what not. But he, a typical refined gentleman, would 
wait for me. So I was forced to take; sure enough, 
whatever I took was wrong, because he afterwards 
[laughter] took the other, and so on for the part 
silver and gold and so on for the solid gold. I never 
forgot the embarrassment that I was in. It was just 
a matter of curiosity with me because I saw no 
difference between that type of service and the 
ordinary one, you know nickel, that I was used to. 

Teiser: Was Mr. Walter E. Taylor involved in the Fruit 

Lanza: Yes, he was involved in the industry. He was the 

secretary of the Fruit Industries. And he represented 
what was part of the old California Wine Association. 
He represented some winery in Lodi. But he was on the 
side of Garrett and Guasti, who had the control of the 
Fruit Industries. And he was the manager practically. 
He was a very capable fellow, but he was an unusually 
selfish and cold-blooded fellow, I thought. Anyway he 
was always on the opposite side of the fence from me. 


Some time later when we disbanded from the Fruit 
Industries there was a meeting held in San Francisco 
where a lot of members of the various wineries attended, 
And Mr. Calvin Russell, a lawyer of a large city near 
Delano [Tulare], this lawyer at the end of the meeting 
said, "Fellows, it behooves all of us to give it some 
thought because we re in a heck of a lot of trouble 
if we don t find some way to make the business 
profitable." Well, I was impressed with that remark 
and I thought that the problem could be solved if the 
different wineries would become part of a new group 
but still retain the majority of stock in their company. 

Lanza: That is to say, if there were ten members they could 
form a combination and turn over 49 per cent of their 
interest, so they are members and yet they have the 
independent control of themselves. And I suggested 
also that the banks should back a movement of that 
kind, so as to give us a boost, a start. 

Teiser: Was this during the Depression? 

Lanza: Yes, this was during the Depression. Some time in the 
30*s I wrote Russell and he turned this letter over 
to the Bank of America and they were agreeable. They 
thought that was a good way to help the industry. 
Well, the bank agreed to put up some money and all of 
the various members, oh, 30 or 40 wineries, would 
become members. In steps the government, and says 
that combination was a sort of a trust contrary to 
law, and they threatened to indict everybody. The 
fellows who came to examine the records of every 
winery I mean the fellows from the government went 
through the files of every winery and they came across 
that letter of mine which started the whole matter. 
And I remember when the government agents came to our 
office, three of four of them said to me, "We have 
gone through the books of the Taylor organization, 
and we have gone through the books of Di Giorgio. If 
Di Giorgio knew some of the letters that Taylor wrote 
about him, and if Taylor knew some of the letters that 
Di Giorgio wrote about him, they would cut each others 
throat in no time." [Laughter] 

Well, anyway, they summoned all these wineries to 
appear before the Grand Jury, and they summoned 
everybody but me! And I thought it was strange, 
because here it was my plan, in black and white, in 
that letter that started the whole business. And yet 
they called everybody but me. And I remember they 
named a partner of mine but not me. 

Teiser: Who was he? 

Lanza: Mr. Repetto, who was then in charge of our New York 
office. He was summoned. And they had a meeting in 
some hall there in the City and I attended, and I 
heard a lot of lawyers representing various wineries 
making speeches that the government couldn t do this 
or couldn t do that and what not. And there was one 
fellow that represented Cella from Fresno (I won t 
mention his name because he s still among us), and I 

Lanza: thought, having been a lawyer myself , that I could 
Judge a lawyer. And I thought here s a fellow full 
of hot air, the cheapest type of a lawyer. He made 
that impression upon me. And then another fellow got 
up, a middle-aged young man, I thought: there is a 
lawyer, there is a legal mind. This fellow that I 
picked out I didn t know either one, you see I picked 
out as the legal mind, that was Phleger, who later I 
think was asked to go to Washington as attorney for 
Eisenhower. Do you see? The other fellow is still a 
spellbinder, a fellow that thinks he is a lawyer, 
makes a lot of noise in criminal cases and things 
like that. And to me it sort of left an impression 
that my Judgement was still good about lawyers. 
[Laughter] Well, that s neither here nor there, but 
I say it coiaes to me and there it is. 

Telser: What was the upshot of the government action then? 

Lanza: Somehow they quashed it. It didn t go any further. 
But the bank and everybody, you know, discontinued 
the operation. Nobody was really indicted. They had 
all been subpoenaed to appear before the Grand Jury, 
but somebody had the influence to settle it out, you 
know, by disbanding the group. 

Teiser: The group had actually been formed, though? 

Lanza: Yes. 

Teiser: Was that the group that was formed for the prorate? 

Lanza: No, that was another group. This was called Central 
California Wineries, Inc. It didn t go very far. It 
was in the formative stage. But it was because of the 
bank getting into it that they were after the bank 
more than they were after the wineries. But the thing 
was quashed after that meeting. 

Teiser: You told me that you were against the prorate. 

Lanza: Yes. The first time that they have proposed the 

prorate two or three times, you know. The first time 
when I was opposed to it, I was the leader of the 
opposition. In those days it seems to me we were 
divided, that the people from the Central Valley wanted 
certain restrictions enforced, while those of us from 
what we call the Coast Counties didn t want. So I was 
the leader of the gang of the Coast Counties. Setrakian 

Lanza: was of the south; Setrakian and others, I don t 
remember, fellows from the Central Valley. 

Teiser: And they wanted the prorate? 

Lanza: Yes. They were the ones that wanted the prorate. 

Teiser: Why did you feel it wasn t advisable? 

Lanza: I don t remember. But the question was, you see, up 

in the Coast Counties they were strictly vineyards for 
wine making, whereas in the Central Valley they had 
table grapes, they had raisins, they had certain rights 
and privileges that, we didn t have, because of the 
location and the type of grapes grown. That was the 
upshot, as I recall. But exactly what it was... 

Teiser: Finally when it went through in 38 I think Mr. Taylor 
and Mr. [Burke] Critchfield put it together, didn t 
they, for the Bank of America? 

Lanza: If there was anything the bank was interested in, 
those two would be the ones to do it. 


Teiser: You mentioned that you had known Mr. Di Giorgio well 
and then fell out with him. What sort of man was he? 

Lanza: A very capable man. He was just a born businessman. 
He came here when he was about 14 years of age and he 
went to work. 

Teiser: Was he, like you, from Sicily? 

Lanza: Yes. He was from Cefalu, which is about 20 miles north 
from where I lived. And as a young man when he landed 
in New York he went to work for a commission house 
vegetables and fruit and whatnot. And he soon learned 
the business of the commission merchant. And when he 
was a young man he moved to Baltimore. In those days 
we didn t have any refrigerated vessels, you know, to 
bring fruit from South America, principally bananas. 
Consequently the bananas were brought from Central 
America, different parts of Central America, and that 
island there southwest of Cuba Jamaica. And it would 

Lanza: come to the nearest port to Central America to unload, 
and ship the bananas in freight cars, which would 
travel faster. And New Orleans and Baltimore were 
the two principal ports of entry for bananas, although 
they would receive some in New York or Boston. But 
the idea was that the fruit would be unloaded, better, 
do you see, and shipped right away in freight cars. 

When he was a young man about 20 he formed an 
importing banana company called the Atlantic Fruit 
Company, and he got a number of small merchants from 
various cities, say, Cleveland, Detroit, Buffalo, 
Chicago, to Join him, but he would be at the point of 
entry and distribute the bananas from there. 

From that he went then to Central America, 
different parts, Jamaica principally, and became 
acquainted with fellows that were exporting fruit. 
He grew, and he developed to be quite a substantial 
man in the industry. Finally they bought him out. 
They bought him out because they wanted to get his 
outfit, you know, away from competition. And they 
bought him out on condition that he should not engage 
in the importation of bananas any more. He sold to 
what was then United Fruit Company. 

I remember his telling me, he said, "When a fellow 
came in my office with a silk hat and a cane and 
wanted to know if there was any stock for sale in my 
company, I knew that it was my competitor." So he 
said, "He made me an offer." He said, "Our stock" 
(that he and his friends had put in) "wasn t worth a 
nickel." He said, "When they offered me 100 cents on 
the dollar for the stock, and they would retain me as 
manager of that branch at $10,000 a year, there was 
nothing else that I could do." He sold and accepted, 
on that condition. But he put in a clause in there 
that if they ever felt like selling that branch, that 
unit, he should have the first privilege of buying it 
back. And it was at that time when he made that deal 
that he came to California. And of course his customers 
in the banana business were fruit merchants, so the 
California fruit, like the oranges, the lemons, were 
in his back yard, as it were. And he got started here 
and went through a lot of troubles. I remember his 
telling me about it. And he was quite successful. He 
told me, he said when he came to California he didn t 
have a dollar, and he said to me, "When I say I didn t 
have a dollar, I mean I didn t have a dollar." 

Teiser: Why not if he had been "bought out so generously? 

Lanza: Well, that was either before or later than this, but 

when he came here, and he told me there lias a gentleman 
from Pittsburgh, a commission merchant but a wealthy 
commission merchant from Pittsburgh I can t think of 
his name but I have it at the tip of my tongue... a 
Mr. Crutchfield. He went around to see different 
shippers and organizations of shippers, and he made 
an agreement to buy the Sari Fruit Company. And he 
went back. When he made the deal to buy the Earl 
Fruit Company, it still was the time when he didn t 
have any money. 

He went back to New York and went to the Erie 
Railroad and said to them, "If you will btiild an 
auction house on your wharf in New York City there, 
in Manhattan, where I can bring fruit from California 
and sell it at auction in this terminal, I ll agree to 
give you 800 cars of business," which apparently 
represented a tremendous income. And the Erie Railroad 
agreed. But he wanted $25,000 down from them to get 
ready, blah blah. He took that $25,000 and began to 
make payments on the deals he had made here. And he 
made good. He was a very, very good businessman. 

Teiser: He must have been. Let me Just turn this tape over. 
Your family then did know the Di Giorgio family? 

Lanza: Oh yes. 

Teiser: You said you met him when you were 18 and he 26. 

Lanza: That s right. 

Teiser: And what was he doing then? 

Lanza: He was in the fruit business, had come to Buffalo and 
was going to Toronto where he had a connection of some 
kind, and he asked me to go along with him. So we 
became very friendly. And afterwards even when 
developments became rather personal, we were very good 
friends, very good friends. He thought the world of 
me. And I did of him too. 

Teiser: When did he then get into the grape and wine business? 

Lanza: He got into the grape business with the table grape, 
in connection with his fruit business. Then when he 

Lanza: acquired the Sari Fruit Company, that was one of the 
leading shipping concerns in the state, of fruit, and 
he was as good a businessman in that line of business 
as there was in the country, I believe, and became 
rather influential. Then he had vineyards; he rented 
vineyards. He came to the conclusion that he should 
have an interest in a winery so that if he had any 
fruit that could not be sent to market it would be 
salvaged. And I may have had something to do with 
that line of thinking. 

Teiser: Suggested it to him perhaps? 

Lanza: Yes, because for a long time he would send his fruit, 
if he had any, to wineries in which I was interested. 
But after a while his volume became so large that he 
began to build a winery of his own. And that s how 
he got into the wine business. 

Teiser: I see. So it was more or less as a by-product? 

Lanza: Oh, yes. It was a by-product. But he was at one time 
interested in the Italian Swiss Colony. He was a 
fellow that would sell you a lot of grapes if you cared 
to buy them and he was willing to let you have them, 
and extend any amount of credit, because he went by 
his credit was on the human side of the fellow he was 
dealing with, not his financial standing. In other 
words, he had been a businessman when he didn t have 
dollars himself and he realized that there were other 
men that were good businessmen withoxit having the 
dollars. So he would extend credit on a large scale. 
As I understand it he had extended credit to the 
Italian Swiss Colony to a substantial figure, and then 
somehow or other they made a deal where he bought an 
interest, to liquidate what he had coming. That was 
some time ago, I don t remember when. 

Teiser: Did he come to be Interested in wines for themselves 
or were they always an additional product? 

Lanza: No, it was sort of a by-product for him. He was not 
interested in wine. By the way, he didn t drink. He 
never drank. That s why I say he was an exceptional, 
good businessman. 

Teiser: You said that you and he fell out later, 
to speak of that or not? 

Do you want 

Lanza: Well, I had rather not. I d rather think and feel 
that everything **as as fine as it always was and it 
was an unfortunate thing, because when you fall out 
in any friendly friendship relation, there must be a 
reason for it, either through your own fault or 
through the other fellow s fault or through an 
unfortunate mistake on one side or the other. And it 
doesn t do anybody any good to reminisce about it. 

Teiser: As I understand he was a very small man physically? 
Lanza: No, oh no. 
Teiser: How tall was he? 

Lanza: Oh, he I am five-four and he must have been, say, 
five-eight. He was one of four brothers. 

Teiser: What were their names? 




One was Vincent. Vincent was the father of Joseph 
Di Giorgio, the one that s still living. Sal, Samuel 
or Salvator, was the father of the present Di Giorgio, 
you know, who is the head of the Di Giorgio interests 
now. And the third I know him very well; I can t 
think of his name now. 

But they were all in the United States? 

Oh yes. The third was the father of Sal Di Giorgio, 
the young Sal Di Giorgio. And there s quite a number 
of the Di Giorgio family now, of the younger generation. 

Did you know the older members of the Italian Swiss 
Colony group? 

No, except the Rossi boys. I didn t know the father, 
but I did know both of the Rossi boys quite well. One 
of them [Robert D.] has gone; there s one left. 
[Edmund A.] He is younger than I am. Sbarboro, of 
course, I met. 



What did he look like? 

I ve always wondered about 

[Alfred E.] Sbarboro is light complexioned. He must 
be around 90 now. His father had a grocery store, the 
old gentleman [Andrea E.] Sbarboro. Then he started 
a little banking biisiness, and finally it became the 
Italian-American Bank. And he inherited then from his 

Lanza: father the Italian-American Bank. Then they sold about 
1930 maybe a little later, to the Bank of America, and 
he went with the Bank of America. 


Teiser: Earlier you said you would tell something of the 
philosophy of Mr. Schilling. 

Lanza: Mr. Schilling I think was a very fine businessman. 
Teiser: What was his first name? 

Lanza: Glaus Schilling. And in his relationship, social 
relationship and in his business, he was highly 
dignified and serious minded but a gentleman. A 
typical German of the higher class. He was the son of 
a sea captain, and his grandfather on his mother s side 
was also a sea captain, with their home port Bremen, 
Germany. Mr. Schilling, Glaus Schilling, when he was 
a young man, wanted to carry on the family tradition, 
to get into the marine business. But his father would 
not let him, and his grandfather would not let him. That 
is, that they advised against it, and to spite them he 
left home and came to the United States when he was 
about 20. 

One of the principal reasons why his father opposed 
it was because the method of marine business was 
changing. In his earlier days it was customary for a 
German ship to load with goods in Germany and go to 
England, sell the German goods in England and load 
with English goods, sail to South America, sell the 
English goods and load with South American goods, go to 
the Orient, there sell the South American goods and go 
back to the port where they started from. That 
ordinarily took one year. So the captain, who attended 
to all these transactions, at the end of the year would 
go to the home office and make his report. 

Among other things, as part of the compensation, 
the captain was allowed the cost of a uniform, whether 
he bought it or not. In the later years, about the 
time when young Mr. Schilling wanted to go into the 
navy and his father wouldn t consent to it, Hr. Schilling s 
father went to the home office in Bremen. There was a 
new young bookkeeper in charge of his matters. And when 

Lanza: he got through with the accounts this young man asked 
Schilling, "Schilling, did you really buy a suit of 
clothes, a uniform? 11 He says, "No." "Well then, you 
shouldn t charge It." He says, "Why not? I ve always 
done that for these many years." "Well," he said, 
"that s only when you buy it, but when you don t buy 
it you shouldn t charge it." "Well," he said, "then 
all right, all right. Take it off." 

He went on the next trip and that was his last 
trip. It took him two years instead of one year on 
this trip. When he came back he went to the head office 
there in Bremen and the same head bookkeeper met him, 
went over his books and he said, "Schilling, I notice 
you didn t charge for a uniform." He says, "No." 
"Well, that means you didn t buy any." He says, "No, 
I didn t." He said, "Well, that s the way it should 
be done." "Oh, no," he says. "The two uniforms are 
there, all right, but only you can t see them." 
[Laughter] Do you get it? So with him he was through 
with the marine business; he wouldn t consent that his 
son should go into business where there were bookkeepers 
of that kind. 

When he came here he went to work on the docks in 
New Orleans, and then there was much talk about gold 
in California, the gold mines. So he came to California 
in 69 and he got a job in one of the wineries.* The 
building still stands in Napa County right by the old 
station, the first station beyond Napa proper. I 
forgot the name of the place. It s near where there s 
an old soldier s home. Yountville. There s a torn 
down building, you ll notice, a great building there 
near the station. That was the winery he went to work 
for. And that s the way he got into the wine business. 
But he was the typical thorough German businessman. 
Everything had to be just so. 

And for quality. But he d make his profit on 
quality that would be better then on volume, no matter 
what. And among other things he had developed apparently 
a keen sense of taste and odor. I never saw a man that 
could taste and Judge the quality of wine the way he 
did. He told me once that he wouldn t hire a salesman 
unless his salesman could taste and recognize his own 
wines. And because a man is not supposed to be perfect 

*The Groezinger Winery. 



Lanza: he would set the trial, he d let the applicant taste 
wines in his office, and he would tell him what the 
wines were. Then he would take him across the street 
where there was a saloon that had his wines and other 
wines. And he d say to the applicant, "Now I m going 
to ask this gentleman to serve us some wine, and you 
taste them all. If you find any that you think are 
like mine that I ve shown you, okay; if they re not, 
just say they re not mine." He said, "If they got 
three out of five correct, I d hire them." But unless 
they came three out of five he wouldn t hire them. 

And so thorough! If anybody wanted a sample of 
his he d never send it to them. That is, "by mail 
or by delivery. He would send it with one of his men. 
And the man could taste the wines and judge them. 
When he got through he would take the sample back. 
The reason was that if a man tasted his wine and then 
put it on his desk and [would] say, "I ll let you know 
tomorrow or the next day," and the sample bottle is 
partially full, the second or the third or fourth day 
another salesman comes in with samples of his wine, 
and the prospective buyer would taste them and then he 
wants to see how they compare with Mr. Schilling s, 
which was opened three-four days before. And the wine 
wouldn t show the same. You see the throughness? 
Never would leave a sample. Take it back, and if the 
man asks why then Mr. Schilling s man would explain, 
which was fair enough. 

He told me once that they had a display of wines 
in the City, and they had committees of wine men to 
judge these wines. He displayed some white wine and 
he got the first prize, that is, it was accepted as 
the best, the first prize. There was also in display 
a wine made by a gentleman that lived down the 
Peninsula, some wealthy man, who had just a small 
private winery of his own for his pleasure. And Mr. 
Schilling said, "I tasted that wine and it was better 
than mine. The judges had given the flag for the 
second prize to this gentleman. So, I took the flag 
of first price from my wine and put it on this 
gentleman s, and took his flag of second prize and put 
it on mine." So I said, "Why did you do that for?" He 
said, "Jesus Christ, didn t I show those judges I 
knew more about wine than they did?" [Laughter] You 
can see the type of a man he was. 

Another time he told me that he used to go to some 
club here in San Francisco [of] businessmen, and some 

Lanza: of the members who were rather well-fixed or wealthy 
woiO-d order wines from him. One time one of these 
gentlemen stopped and said, "Schilling, that last batch 
of wine you sold me is terrible." Mr. Schilling asked, 
"Why? 1 * He says, "Well, I just can t drink it. It s 
not the same that yon have sent me before." "Well, 
something must have happened. Why didn t you say so 
before? Now I ll send my man to pick it up right away." 
He said, "Well, I wish you would, Schilling. And send 
me in its place some other wine, but send me some good 
wine as you did before." He said, "Certainly. Why 
didn t you say so before?" 

He said, "I got my truckman to go and pick them 
up, and I told him after he picked them up to go round 
the block a few times and then go back and deliver 
them as the new lot." So the fellow did that. A 
short time afterwards he met this gentleman at the 
club again. He says, "Schilling, oh, that s fine wine." 
[Laughter] "That s fine wine! And I wish you would 
always send me the same." He says, "Why, of course. 
Any time that you receive wine that isn t right, you 
Just let me know. " [Laughter] 

Teiser: He was sure of his wine. 

Lanza: Sure of his wine and nobody could tell him they weren t 
the right wine. 

Teiser: Did he have vineyards as well, or just buy wine? 

Lanza: He had a small vineyard, which of course in those 

days was a substantial vineyard, at Evergreen near San 
Jose.* But he would go out in the country and buy 
from variotis small wineries, and he knew from experience 
who made good wines and who didn t. And he would always 
pay two cents higher, he told me, than the going price. 
But he would take Just the cream and then he would sell 
it for ten cents higher, and he was very successful. 

Teiser: Where were his headquarters? In San Francisco? 

Lanza: In San Francisco, corner of 20th and Minnesota Streets, 
near the Union Iron Works. Later it became the 
California Wine Association plant. They took over his 

*The Villa Vista Vineyard. 


Lanza: business. And he was a very fair felloe full of the 
Dickens, you. know, in turn. He told me one time he 
used to buy wines from a German at Cordelia, named 
Mangels who owned a winery of the same name. One year 
he went to him; he said, "I knew that the price of 
wine was going to go up, so I thought I d have some 
fun with Mangels," His name was Glaus also, Glaus 
I-Iangels. So when he went and saw the wines, they came 
down to the price, he said, "All right, Mangels. Now 
these past years I have always told you what I would 
pay you. This year I m going to let you fix the 
price." "Well," he says, "you know, last year you 
paid me eight cents a gallon. I think I ought to get 
eight cents a gallon again this year." "All right, 
all right. That s fair enough. If that s what you 
say, it will be eight cents a gallon." 

He got through with him, went up the road and he 
stopped at another winery owned by a gentleman, a 
Mr. [John VJ.] Wheeler [near St. Helena]. He had been 
coinmissioner of agriculture for the state or something 
like that in the Agricultural Department.* And he 
went through the winery, tasted the wines, and then he 
said, "I m going to let you fix your price this year." 
He says, "What are you paying?" He says, "Well, I m 
not going to make any price but I ll tell you, I just 
left the winery of Mangels and I bought that at eight 
cents." "Well," he says, "You paid eight cents to 
Mangels. I xant the same." "Okay, okay, if you re 
satisfied." He said, "I knew the price was too low. 
So after the market broke, and the price went up two 
or three cents, I waited to see how they would take it. 
Mangels was the first to complain. So I said, What 
the hell are you talking about? Didn t I leave it to 
you to make the price? Are you sore at yourself? Why 
do you blame me? " 

Well, he went away and he was rather dissatisfied. 
The following year he went again to Mangels and he said, 
"Now listen, the price this year is going to be ten 
cents, but I m going to pay you 12," to make up to 
him. He went to Wheeler. Wheeler was going to build 
a house. And he showed the plans to Mr. Schilling, 
just a friendly gesture, and Schilling said, "You don t 

*He was secretary of the State Board of Viticultural 
Commissioners and chief executive of the State 
Viticultural Commission for many years. 

Lanza: want to build a cheap house like this. Why don t you 
build a real house?" Well, no, he couldn t do it. 
He didn t want to put in much more than so much for 
it. He said, "All right, what kind of a house do you 
want to build?" He says, "You re going to Europe, 
aren t you?" He says, "Yes, I want to go to Europe." 
He says, "I ll have the house built for you while 
you re in Europe. You. tell me the kind of a house 
you want and what you want to spend for it." And let 
us say that the price was 3fOOO, whatever it was, 
$5000. Wheeler went to Europe and Mr. Schilling 
built a real house. It was the house in Napa County 
there for many, many years. I don t know Whether it s 
still standing or not. And he gave, he paid the extra. 
Wheeler was going to pay, say, $6,000,, and if the 
house cost $10,000 he paid the other ^4,000. In other 
words, he made up [laughter], but he had the fun though 
to sort of shame them afterwards that he tricked them 
into making their own price. He was that type of a 
gentleman. I thought the world of him. 

Teiser: Did he continue during Prohibition? 
Lanza: No, because he had sold out before. 


Lanza: The California Wine Association, as I recall, was 
formed in 1892.* The bankers in the City financed 
the formation of the California Wine Association, but 
each member, like Mr. Schilling, Italian Swiss Colony, 
Lachman & Jacob!, Bundschu and many others, they formed 
this California Wine Association. But the money was 
principally from the bankers. Mr. Schilling finally 
sold out to the California Wine Association, but he 
continued to be on the board of directors. Then 
Prohibition came, and then these bankers got scared 
that they were in an illegitimate business, see. They 
wanted to get out, and they wanted to get rid of it, 
sell it. Well, when I came here some time after they 
had been doing business, I thought we should buy them 

*The actual organization date was I89*f. 


Teiser: "We" at that time was what? 

Lanza: Colonial Grape Prodiicts Company. It was about the 
first or second year after we formed the Colonial 
Grape Products Company. Mr. Schilling said, "Very 
well, I ll see if they want to sell it and at how 
much." My partner Pederspiel knew that I proposed the 
Durchase of it and he was agreeable. Mr. Schilling 
saw I-Jr. [Evan S.] Pillsbury, of the firm of Pillsbury 
and someone else in the law business,* but he was also 
at the time I think president of the Pacific Telephone 
Company. Anyway he was a very wealthy man. And they 
agreed to sell all their assets on the basis of the 
wine price only, which meant you would be buying the 
wine /and with the wine you would get their vineyards 
and their plants throughout the country gratis. hey 
we re so anxious to get out. But it took about three 
million dollars to buy the wine. 

Well, I thought I could raise the money, so I 
went back and saw my friend Di Giorgio, and he and I 
talked it over. It would be a good thing to buy, so 
he said, "I m going to call up Dantoni," who was at 
the head of Vaccaro Brothers in New Orleans, and they 
were importers of bananas and had many interests in 
Central America. Supposed to be the richest firm 
south of the Mason-Dixon line. So he phoned Dantoni. 
He same to New York and we talked about it. Dantoni 
said, "Why do they want to sell it if it is as good, a 
buy as you say?" And I explained to him that they 
were principally bankers; they didn t want to be in 
the business; they vjere afraid they might get into 
trouble. "Well," he said, "I ll think it over." In 
the morning he says, "Gentlemen, a million dollars is 
too much." They wanted a million down. "This is too 
much money even for Vaccaro Brothers." He said, "We 
can t advance it." He had made up his mind that if 
the bankers of San Francisco are afraid, why should 
the bankers of New Orleans step in? 

So I came back and told Mr. Schilling. I said I 
thought I could raise the million dollars but I found 
it s impossible. So Mr. Schilling goes back to 
Pillsbury and tells what happened. Pillsbury said, 
"Do the boys object to showing me their statement?" 

*Pillsbury, Madison & Sutro. 


Lanza: He said, "I don t know." So Mr. Schilling comes and 
reports to us. I said, "By all means. Let him see 
the statement." 

And he saw the statement. We had put in the 
Colonial Grape Products Company $4-00,000 $200,000 
myself and my associates from back East, $200,000 Mr. 
Federspiel and his associates, which meant Mr. Schilling 
and others. He saw the statement and he saw that we 
could make a payment of $50*000 from the liquid assets 
that we had. So he said, "Will the "boys be willing to 
buy, at the same price, by paying $50,000, and to retain 
Mr. Morrow as manager so that when the inventories are 
liquidated and the monies collected Mr. Morrow is there 
representing us, and that s got to be applied to us 
first, not to you." "Pair enough. Okay." So we 
agreed to purchase it that way. 

And I leave to go home. I was living back East 
then. A day or two later Federspiel came to Buffalo 
to see me. He got there about seven or eight o clock 
in the evening. We had dinner and we sat up (I had 
a sort of a den on the third floor of my house. It 
Tas like a little clubhouse for myself and my friends, 
a fireplace.). We sat there in front of that fire 
place until two o clock in the morning, and he talked 
me out of it. "Why do we want to take on this big 
responsibility? We can make all the wines that you 
can sell. So why...?" 

So I thought, well, he s a Calif ornian. He knows 
more about the wine business than I do. He got me to 
back down. Two or three years later the same property 
was sold to a firm, a beer business of Santa Rosa. 
They are brothers Grace Brothers. They bought it. 
Same terms, same figures, and they made a fortune out 
of it. 

Well, that was one of the things that made ne lose 
confidence in my associates, here the local associates. 
And it wasn t that alone. It was other deals. Because 
I was young; that is, I felt I was young. I was 
traveling. I could feel the pulse of the business 
throughout the country because I did the traveling 
myself and had connections. I could see the business 
was coming. And it was losing one opportunity after 
the other. Hence when I got that other property where 
the man gave me $5000 to buy him out, I took it alone 
because I thought to myself, "No more." 


Teiser: Ah, now I see the background. 

Lanza: Absolutely. That was the reason. No more. Then after 
I took it alone and began to show progress, then I began 
to see that there were some private interests, some 
bankers behind my associate. Do you see? 

Teiser: I see. So he was not acting alone? 

Lanza: He was not acting alone, and they were the ones that 
apparently had got him to back down. Well, for me it 
was a fortunate thing that I went on alone. 

(Interview with Horace 0. Lanza, Piedmont, 
California, February 13, 1969) 


Teiser: You were going to tell me some interesting things 
about some stray vines. 

Lanza: Oh yes. As I mentioned, in the cuttings that we got 

from Italy shortly after Repeal, there were three vines 
that were stray vines, and. they came to the attention 
of the [University of California at] Davis department 
of agriculture in connection with their visiting this 
farm and that farm and making suggestions and hearing 
reports. They observed these three vines. And they 
called it the Italia Muscat. It s a table grape. Now 
it s one of the leading table grapes in the San Joaquin 
Valley. That is to say, there are hundreds of acres of 
that varietal. 

Teiser: This was a variety that you yourself imported? 

Lanza: We didn t intend to. We found it among a stray, because 
the ones I Imported were meant to be wine grapes. That s 
what I had in mind. And that s how that Italia was 
started in this state. 

They tell me also that the grape that is known as 
Tokay was a stray vine found in the vineyard of Wheeler 
there at Yountville. They had planted a vineyard there 
for wine grapes, and here was this vine which was a 
table varietal, and finally they called it Tokay when 
somebody suggested it was like the type of grapes grown 
on the Tokay mountains east of Austria, in Hungary 

The other one where there was one stray vine was 
the one of Thompson Seedless. That again I understand 
was where Mr. Thompson ordered and got some cuttings 
from a nursery in Rochester, New York, and when they 
planted it and they found that this variety had no seed, 
they began to spread it, and it was developed first in 
Sacramento Valley. Then they planted it further south 
and they found that it paid better on account of the 
seasons or maybe the culture, what not. That is one of 


Lanza: the principal grapes now that we re growing. It goes 
to show how the varietals are developed. And they re 
constantly developing new varietals. 

You must remember that the nature of the grape 
is a wild plant. And it is found as different varietals 
most all over the temperate zone, as I understand. And 
from the thousands of varietals somebody develops a 
certain type that will do for wine making. Like you 
take the Catawba, which was made famous by Longfellow 
in the poem that he wrote about the wine made from the 
Catawba grape; the Concord, which was found in Concord, 
New Hampshire, gets its name from the locality it was 
wild. And some others. And there is no telling how 
many more varietals there are and how important they 
will come to be. 

In starting out young men that wanted to work with 
me in my business of grape growing and wine making, I 
always tried to impress upon the young people to try 
any varietal, but not with the idea of developing one 
varietal to make a type of wine that is good in itself, 
but to make a type of wine that is excellent when 
blended with a different type of grape. And I called 
this to their attention. I say, "Now, you know we have 
a vegetable called garlic. I don t know of anybody that 
I ve ever met who said that he ate garlic straight, 
direct. But I do know that if you take a piece of 
garlic and just rub the bowl before you make a salad, 
rub the bowl and throw that piece away, that rubbing 
leaves enough flavor that makes the salad delicious. 
And people say, What did you put in this? " And I 
mention that as an illustration of what you can do. 
And I always wanted a report of anything that was unusual 
in our vineyards. 

I remember of an occasion when one year there at 
Delano the men in the plant called to my attention 
that the deposit in the tank where they had racked 
the wine after the new wine is made and allowed to 
stand it creates a certain deposit that it was rubbery. 
And they would take a piece of this deposit and stretch 
it, just like a piece of rubber, and the thing would 
go back to its normal shape. And I asked for some 
sample of it, and I saw it myself. 

I gave orders to my men now to hold that tank, but 
to tell me what grapes, what wine and from what grapes 
was that tank filled, and what did they do, how did they 


Lanza: ferment it, when did they put in, what was the 

temperature. They couldn t tell me, and I was madder 
than a hatter because I had been trying to impress 
upon them to keep a record of every tank. And if 
there is a tank that is exceptionally good, now try 
and reason why, why is that so good? Or if there is 
a tank that is terrible, try and reason why, what 
happened. In order to make them capable, you know, 
and really workmen worthwhile. 

Teiser: Your mention of blending wines I believe I read an 
article of yours ona subject of standardization. In 
Wines and Vines of January, 19*4-0 [p. ?]. Does this go 
with that? 

Lanza: It s along that line. Now for instance, I am of the 
opinion that the blending of a California wine, and I 
mean a table wine, with, say, the Concord wine, makes 
a better wine than either of the two. 

Teiser: Who does that now? 

Lanza: I don t know who does it. 

Teiser: Did Garrett & Company do it at one time? 

Lanza: They may have. I was the first to observe it, because 
when we started (my brother was in the wine business 
and I started in Predonia) that s all that we had, the 
Concord wine made from the grapes of the Concord type. 
Then as the business developed we were buying wines 
from California, and bringing them there. And in those 
days we didn t sell wine by the gallons or in bottles, 
so far as the winemaker was concerned. We sold the 
wine by the barrel. When you were asked a quotation, 
say, "What s the price of your wine?" you d say, "Eight 
dollars a barrel, ten dollars a barrel." 

Teiser: What size barrel was that? 

Lanza: The 50-gallon barrel. Now I found that the fellows who 
were used to the Concord wine, if by mistake one of 
our men shipped him a barrel of California wine, we 
would get a complaint: "You thief! You scoundrel! I 
trusted you as I wotild trust my father! I ordered this, 
you made me pay in advance." You see? And vice versa. 
The fellow that was used to the California wine, if he 
got a barrel of wine made from the Concord wine by 
mistake (you know in the winery the men sometimes are 
careless), we would get the same sort of complaint. 


Lanza: Very well. Then there was another type that wanted a 
certain color, and the minute we began to blend the 
two wines for the sake of color we found that the 
fellows would regard that as a superior wine, superior 
even to the imported that is, it was their extravagant 
manner of showing how much they liked this wine. 
Whether it was or was not I didn t know in those days, 
I wasn t competent enough. But as I say, I observed 
from that experience that the blending pleased certain 
people, and then I did it on a larger scale and found 
that it improved. 

Teiser: Did you ever do it in California? Blend Concord... 

Lanza: No, but we did back East. We would have people that 
made Concord wine and I would suggest, and they would 
make [blend] it. 

Teiser: I m told that there is what they call a "foxy" is that 
the term. . . ? 

Lanza: Yes, the foxy flavor. That s what they call it. 

Teiser: And people on the West Coast don t like it and people 
there think it s fine? 

Lanza: Exactly. Another thing that I learned from experience, 
and only by accident, was this, that when I took over 
the California Grape Products Corporation the people 
before me had made wine in Ukiah for the growers, for 
the farmers, on a sort of partnership basis in this 
way: a farmer would bring in a ton of grapes and they 
agreed to make wine and sell it for them and give them 
the proceeds of 100 gallons. That is, if from a ton of 
grapes they got, say, 160 gallons, then the company 
would get 60 gallons for manufacturing and selling that 
wine, and the grower would get 100 gallons. Well, that 
was before I took over the California Grape Products 
Company. Prohibition came, some years before I took 
over the company, and there was a lot of wine there in 
the winery belonging to the growers. Prohibition 
remained for, say, 14-15 years. This wine had turned 
into a wonderful type of vinegar, not exactly a vinegar 
but near wlnegar wine. But it belonged to the growers. 

Then Prohibition was repealed and the growers 
stepped forward and said, "Give us our wine." At that 
time I was the owner. I hadn t made the wine but I 
inherited this wine. So I said, "Here it is. It s 
vinegar." They said, "But in your contract with your 


Lanza: company you agreed to make trine that was sound and sell 
it. We want some i-rine." And they sued me, that is, 
the company. But I reasoned with the lawyers and I 
said, "Look. V/e didn t do that intentionally or 
through carelessness. We were compelled by the law to 
keep it. We couldn t sell it. And nature spoiled it; 
we didn t." Well, finally we settled. Wine was 
selling at the start of Repeal, you know, around one 
dollar a gallon. We settled; I paid them I think four 
cents a gallon for this as vinegar. So I settled 
more to, you know, make the best out of a bad job. 

That following fall I thought, this is not vinegar 
and this is not wine either. So I said, "Let s 
referment it," because there was a process of refermenting 
wines in the books, you know. So we tried it, and from 
the resulting wine, the minute we sent the first car to 
New York, the New York people came here and bought all 
that I had. And later I found out, they claimed that 
that was better than much of the wine they were importing. 

And I began to reason, how come? How could that be? 
And I tasted it and really found that they were right, 
that is, it was a good drinkable wine. Finally I came 
to this conclusion: what turns grape juice into wine 
is the operation of these little ferments. They are 
not animals but they are vegetable, say, like little 
mushrooms. All right. They feed on something. How 
come that this acid that is in this wine after the 
refermentation is gone? So that they must feed on that 
acid, do you see. Acid does have an effect on the 
operation of the ferment in fact. There is a certain 
acid that we call the malic acid that is natural in the 
Juices that is helpful in the fermentation. So I 
thought that these little ferments like this kind of 
acid, whatever it was. And the result was the creation 
of a fine wine which retained the characteristic of 
the old wine, see, but replenished it with, say, with 
the blend of the young wine. So I have always suggested 
to my men that if they wanted to improve any type of 
wine they should referment it. That is, ferment it one 
year and ferment it again a second time. And we get 
results . 

Now that was as I say by accident, by circumstances, 
but it is a fact that I think is valuable to the industry. 

Telser: Do many others do that now? 

Lanza: I don t know whether they do or not, but it is kept more 
or less as a firm secret. You know what I mean, not a 

Lanza: secret but a practice that you like to profit while 
your competitor doesn t know anything about it. 

Teiser: Do I remember that there is now a law that when a wine 
company markets wine as vinegar, something has to be 
added to it? Is that to prevent this refermentation? 

Lanza: No. If the wine is turned into vinegar or for vinegar 
purposes then, you see, you pay no taxes. So the law 
requires a certain amount of acid before you can say 
it s not fit as wine. And I think they say it s 1.5 
-if I remember correctly. 

Teiser: I make my own vinegar. 

Lanza: So do I, so do I. And I use good wine. I use good 
wine not because I should but I have some wine that 
is so old that I think I can describe it as being 
decrepit. It hasn t got the flavor, you know, the 
combination of the fruit. And I have pretty good 
that is, I think I have pretty good wine. You know, 
like all other food products, it changes with age. 

This used to be the rule, for instance, that I 
learned from Mr. Schilling. That is, he was the first 
one to tell me about it. Ordinarily a dry wine, you 
make it and it starts to improve. It reaches its peak 
when it s about fotir years old. Then it stays put 
until it s about six, and then it starts to go down. 
A sweet wine reaches its peak when it s 12 years old, 
and stays put until it is about 20 years old. Then it 
starts to go down. I have seen wine that xas so old 
that all you had was just water and acids and alcohol, 
there was no combination. 

The sweet wines I said 12 to 20. Brandy, 20 to 
years old. It reaches its peak when it s 20, I 
mean peak of quality, and retains it until it is ^0 
and then it starts to go down. So that for instance 
when you hear of the Napoleonic brandy, from the times 
of Napoleon, and you pay high prices for it, you pay 
high prices for it because you re deceived. And I 
don t mean viciously deceived. But you think one thing 
when the fact is different. I mean, you re deceived 
because you re not up to snuff or don t understand 


Lanza; In Prance, for instance, you start a tank of wine 
today. You age it, let us say, for three or four 
years. After that you remove 50 per cent of it and 
you add 50 per cent of the new wine. 

Teisen This is dry wine? 

Lanza: Any wine. And next year you take out 50 per cent and 
again replenish it with 50 per cent new the next year. 
So if you started that tank, let us say, in 1800, you 
can still claim that this product was made in 1800. 
In our laws you can t do that. It s got to be 100 
per cent of one year; otherwise you cannot claim any 
age statement at all. The youngest of the wine in 
that tank is the age of that wine. But you see where 
the ordinary person would buy a bottle of the so-called 
Napoleon brandy and he thinks he has something worth 
serving you, you know, when as a matter of fact 
[laughter] he just follows there are things that one 
needs to knot* when we speak of foreign standards. 

Take, for instance, we speak of our acidity, and 
we say it s five parts per 1,000 or ten parts per 1,000. 
Well now, the French will speak of acidity and he says, 
two parts per 1,000, or four or what not, because his 
scale is different. It s one-half of ours. Because 
they use a different acid. You speak of an acid in wine. 
The authorities claim that there s 15 different kinds of 
acid. The same as you speak about brandy. Well, brandy 
begins to raise, let us say, some of the alcohol in it 
reaches I think 67. I don t remember for sure. At 
6? degrees there s one thing that lifts; at 75 a different 
one; at 83 different, and so on, until you go up to 212. 
You see what I mean? Or even higher. 

But the professional knews those things. But the 
common ordinary public [laughter] are apt to be misled. 

Teiser: I think you and Mr. Baccigaluppi mentioned the other 
day a variety that you had worked with called Ugni 
blanc. It has another name too, does it? 

Lanza: Yes, the Italian is Trebbiano. 
Teiser: And that s one you imported? 


Lanza: Yes. I brought it in as Trebbiano, but it s the same 
as the Ugni blanc. And another name for it is, I 
can t think of it not*. It has a third name. But it s 
the same grape. 

Teiser: Saint-Smilion? 
Lanza : Yes . 

Teiser: When you first came to California of course, it was 
during Prohibition but did the relationship between 
the grower and the winemaker change over the period 
that you observed it? 

Lanza: Well, it has changed in a manner, in the development 
of the commercial side of it. In the old days every 
ranch, every grape grower, had his little winery. 
Hence why, for instance, in Napa Valley I think at one 
time there were 150 wineries. Well, as we speak of 
wineries today they weren t wineries. It was that 
every farmer had his own establishment, the same as 
they did in the old country. When Repeal came I asked 
one of my Italian friends if I could get a chemist, a 
wine chemist, and he was an official of some kind. 
I ve forgotten what kind. And he said to me, "Look, 
the wineries in Italy they re all small wineries. 
Nobody s got a chemist. They can t afford to have a 

So the books I had been reading had been [by] the 
chemists in the colleges of agriculture, not the chemists 
as we know them here. 

Teiser: What did you do? Did you find one? 
Lanza: I got one, and he proved not satisfactory. 
Teiser: Where did you get him, from a college? 

Lanza: From college. I got him from the college at Conegliano 
[in Italy]. It s viticultural, like the one at Asti 
[in Italy]. And this young gentleman came, and he came 
from a family that was apparently well established 
because he had an uncle who was a cardinal in the church, 
and from that I conclude. But he had learned the art 
of wine making and he came here, and I, knowing the 
foreigner of those days he thought he knew everything 
and here in America we knew nothing. And how conceited 
and proud they were! 


Lanza: The very first day that I took him out to lunch 

when he arrived here, we talked and talked and finally 
I came to this point. I said, "Now, look. I m going 
to take you to Ukiah where we have a plant up there. 
And they re nice people. The foremen or the men at 
the head of the plant, they re all nice." There was 
a young chemist there (who by the way is now at the 
head of the Roma production, Hoy Mineau). Well, he 
was the young chemist up there. I said, "Now, look. 
You will want to learn what they know, and they may be 
asking you what yon know. Now if you have any secrets 
please do not make use of them," knowing, you know, 
that every Italian has 5000 recipes for this or that. 
He said, "Do you mean to tell me that I ve got to let 
them know what I know?" I said, "No. I m telling you 
just the reverse of that. Don t make use of any 
secrets, secret methods that you may have, because if 
you do they re going to ask you what you did and the 
minute you won t tell them they are not going to tell 
you anything that you should know." So, I said, "I m 
not asking you to make use of your secrets, in the 
sense of participating. But I m telling you that if 
you show that you want, without giving, they re going 
to do the same thing with you." 

Sure enough he goes up there. Before the end of 
the month that s what had happened. So it was a case 
where he was useless. I had to get rid of him. And 
he went away. 

Teiser: Did your young chemist come from this area? 
Lanza : No , he came I think from Oregon. 

Teiser: The other chemists whom you employed at various times 

in the operation have they been mostly Americans then? 

Lanza: Oh, yes. Or they are of Italian descent, but they are 
Americanized, you know, like the rest of us. There is 
no more of the old class of the Italian. I look at, 
you know, in my own case. I have of course a high 
respect for my forefathers, because I was brought up 
^ that way. So I have a certain respect for my native 
land. But the way Italy was my native land, so is 
America. The native land of my own children. My father 
and mother, who were born there, they are buried here. 
My brother, my sisters who were born there, are buried 
here. And now my family is so spread that the close 
and the distant have graduates from different colleges. 


Lanza: I have a grandson, for instance, [pointing to 
photograph] this lower one he is a Yale man and, by 
the way, he is one of the writers of the Captain 
Kangaroo show. And he mtist be getting good wages 
because of the way he talks and what he does. The 
other one is a graduate of Oregon. And I have a 
distant relative who is teaching at Bryn Mawr. I just 
happened to think of her. I have had children graduate 
[University of] California. Relatives graduate of 
Cornell. Different colleges. So this is America, and 
I m one of the Americans, because that s the way that 
we have built America. 

I remember, for instance, when we came here to 
this country in 1891 the population was only 62 million. 
Now it s 200 million. So I ve been here when we built 
the country three times as much. I have contributed. 
So to me America, they say that the fatherland fine. 
I have respect for the fatherland because of my fore 
fathers. But I have equally an interest, if not 
greater, because the present is always better than the 
past, here in America. And that is true for all of us. 

I sometimes evaluate, you know, the American life 
with life in other parts of the country, and I can only 
evaluate it according to my own experience. I came 
here when I was ten years old. 

Teiser: What was your birth date? 

Lanza: My birthday was June 5th, either i860 or 1881. I used 
to think it was 1881 because I had a cousin, Horace 
Lograsso, a distant cousin, about the same age as I 
was, and I always thought I was six months older than 
he was. And I reasoned that I was six months older 
because I was born in June and he was born in December. 
But he became a young doctor and then he had to get his 
birth certificate. And some years later he told me that 
he was born in i860. So if he was born in 1880 and I 
was six months older, then it was 1880. But if I was 
born in 1881, then he was six months older than I was. 
But we were of different year. And in Italy, at least 
in those days, we didn t speak of birthdays. We would 
refer to age as the Indians, say, did in this country 
so many summers. 

For instance, my father was born in 184-3, but he 
didn t know when, what month. My mother was born in 
1852 but she didn t know vjhen. I didn .t know that 


Lanza: birthdays were to be celebrated until I was about 
years old. Just customs. 

Well, very well. We came in 1891. Ten years 
later I graduated from the University of Buffalo in 

Teiser: How did you manage to so to the University? That must 
have been very expensive for a young fellow. 

Lanza: No, not in those days. We lived in Predonia, New 

York, which happened to have a normal school it didn f t 
have a high school, but a normal school. And this 
young cousin of mine and myself, we went to school 
there, in the elementary schools, and then we went into 
the normal school and then we graduated from that. I 
went to study law and he went to study medicine. 

We would work in the summer at the canning 
factory starting in the month of May when strawberries 
would start to come in, until November when apples, 
which was the last fruit to be canned at the canning 
factory. Then we would go to school between November 
and the following June. And we went to school because 
we had nothing else to do. We had to. But we worked 
whenever we could. 

When I went to the University then the fee, as I 
recall, was about $150 a year. And the first year it 
cost me about $400 and the second year $500. And in 
those days that was the legal course, just two years. 

So as I say I arrived here in 1891. In 1901 I 
graduated from the University of Buffalo. In 1911 
we ll make it ten years I was already established in 
the practice of law, and I believe that I had the 
biggest law office and law practice in the city of 
Buffalo for a youngster of my age, when I was 30. And 
I had had the good fortune to have a good practice and 
had good opportunity to develop, because I represented 
a laboring class. That s all I could get for clients. 
But a laboring class. 

If a man worked on the railroad and he got killed, 
then I would sue the railroad company. If the man had 
insurance and had trouble, then I would sue the 
insurance company. You see, I was pitted against 
lawyers of ability and distinction, because those 
corporations had such lawyers, and I, realizing that 


Lanza: I was a youngster that didn t know anything, I would 
work on my cases and study until midnight and get up 
the next morning at 5 o clock to study some more to 
prepare that case. I was learning without knowing 
that I was learning. And so I felt that in 1931 I had 
the biggest practice and a fairly good reputation in 
the profession, I believe. 

In 19^1 I go from ten years to ten years I had 
gone into the wine business and made a small fortune. 
In 1951 was that 1951? I lost... no, the crash was in 
29, so my ten years I ve got to go back. At 20 I 
was already in the profession; at 30 I had become 
prominent in the profession; at 40 years of age I had 
gone into business and made a fortune; at 50 years of 
age I lost every cent that I had, as I told you the 
other day, and I lost not only all I had but they came 
and got a deficiency judgement against me of $128,000. 
When I was 60 I had already made another fortune even 
bigger than the one when I was 40. And at ?0, and so 
on. So you can imagine how I should feel about this 
country, what it means to me. There is no place on 
earth where I could have done that. Do you see what I 

So it just goes to show the America that we have 
today, the Americans that we have today of course we 
have a bigger family of Americans or of nationalities. 
I, for instance, married a Scotch lassie, who by the 
way, was born in Scotland and her mother and two of her 
sisters and two brothers arrived in New York the same 
day that I arrived in New York, in 1891. Isn t that 
strange? [Laughter] 

Teiser: What was her maiden name? 

Lanza: Allen, Selina Allen. She was born in Monifieth, 

Scotland. That s near Dundee. We went when we were 
married to see her place. 

As I say, then my children married, you know, half 
German, half English, and so on. That s the American 
of today. Excuse me, there s the telephone. 



Teiser: Looking over your career, I can see logic in everything 
except why anyone would go into the wine business 
during Prohibition? 

Lanza: Well, I was in the wine business before. 

Teiser: Yes, but why would you have gone further into it in 

Lanza: I saw nothing but success. 
Teiser: You saw Repeal coming, did you? 

Lanza: Yes, I saw it coming and I profited by it, as I told 
you, I think, by buying a lot of wine that I sold at 
a good profit. And then I thought that people would 
make their wine at home, because it s easy to make 

Teiser: Do you think that they would do that just into the 
distant future? 

Lanza: Oh, yes. They were doing it before Prohibition. They 
were doing it before Prohibition because the ordinary 
Italian, for instance in the old country, he made his 
wine. He didn t buy wine. 

Teiser: My neighbors in San Francisco did when I first lived 
there in the forties. 

Lanza: Exactly. So I had faith that grapes would sell for 
wine making and there would be a big demand for it, 
and also grape products, which is the concentrate to 
make the home wine. So I believed in that, and I was 
a pioneer in that field. And then we also sold a lot 
of fresh grapes in the markets back East. 

Teiser: For people to make wine out of? 

Lanza: That s it exactly. And there was a certain amount of 
legitimate business which only a few people could 
afford to make. In other words there wasn t enough 
for every riffraff to make wine, but the few that were 
in it could make wine. As I say during Prohibition we 
enjoyed the patronage of the Campbell Soup Company, 
of the tobacco people in Philadelphia. 


Teiser: Who were your main competitors during Prohibition? 

Lanza: California Wine Association. Some in Lodi, I don t 
remember the name. Then there were the Beaulieu 
people for sacramental wines. There was also a winery 
in Fresno, and I think it was operated by the raisin 
growers* association as a sort of a by-product. The 
Italian Vineyard Company in Los Angeles, Garrett and 
Company of Cucarionga, and there in New York state in 
the Finger Lake District. 

Teiser: Was Italian Swiss in it too during Prohibition? 

Lanza: No, it was out. No, I beg your pardon. Yes, it was, 
but they didn t make wine. They just specialized in 
the by-products like concentrate. The sons of the 
founder, the Rossi boys, they went into it, and they 
did go into the wines eventually when they found that 
there was a field for it much later. But they started 
only with the concentrate then. 

Teiser: Then there were quite a few competitors. 

Lanza: Oh, yes. There were quite a number of competitors. 

But it always had an attraction for me. And the faith, 
like I have faith in it now, even now. And I see what 
I believe not many other fellows see, and that is this: 
The amount of labor required on an acre of grapes is 
greater than the amount of labor required in any other 
product of agriculture. That is to say, that the amount 
of annual labor in one acres of grapes is greater than 
an acre of lettuce, an acre of tomatoes, an acre of 
cucumbers, or of cabbage, or of corn, or what not. 

Therefore in agriculture, because we can grow 
grapes in this country in every state, I maintain, and 
in every climate in this country, only a different type 
of grapes there are going to be more people engaged 
in producing wines, producing grapes and producing wines, 
How come? When the farmer in Wisconsin, let us say, 
realizes that he can make a profit in growing grapes, 
he d Just as soon grow grapes as raise cattle, or to 
raise hogs, or what not. With him it s a case of making 
a living. And if Wisconsin discovers that it can 
produce grapes and wine, they are not going to come to 
California to buy their wine. They are going to make 
[it]. The local fellow will always have the inside 


Lanza: But the local fellow may not make as good wine as 
they make in California. But if he buys some iiine or 
grape product in California, brings it to Wisconsin 
and blends it with his own, he is going to use production 
of California, but he s going to develop a market in 
Wisconsin which is not there today. 

Now following that thought do you see what I 
mean? here in this country there is a potential. The 
grape growing is going to be greater, and the consumption 
of the grape products is greater. Only the other day I 
saw in some report here from the University of California 
that a few years ago let us say 15 or 20 years ago, I 
don t remember just exactly when we were producing 90 
per cent of the grapes and grape products in the 
country. Now it s 72 per cent. And yet we were selling 
^4-5 million gallons of wine when Prohibition started, 
and now we re selling 160 million gallons. Do you see 
what I mean? Pour times as much, and yet our percentage 
[is lower]. Why? Because other states have picked up 
a little. Have they finished? Not at all. That s 
going to go on. 

So you can see from the enthusiasm that I have 
about it, if I were a young man I would be attracted to 
it. I don t say that s the only thing that would attract 
me. But I believe it would be one of the things that 1 
would consider seriously. And am I the only fellow 
that can be convinced? Hence I have great faith there 
is going to be greater production and greater consumption, 
because finally it s the only beverage which offers you 
the fruit, that is, all the beneficial part of the fruit, 
plus alcohol which it generates by its own sugar or 
production or what not. And when we become a people of 
sober habits, when we Just settle down, we re going to 
accept it like bread and butter, without getting stuffed 
with bread and butter [laughter]. Just for our own 

I notice it with myself here at my age. Say I m 
88 or 89- I take one glass of wine with my lunch. If 
I take any at all it s just a glass of wine. And one 
with my dinner. I do take a little highball in the 
evening before dinner because of sort of habit. But 
only one. What s the consequence? I am alone but I 
have a housekeeper; she is Italian from near Venice 
there. She drinks half a glass of wine at lunch and 
one glass of wine in the evening. We consume two bottles 
every three days. And here I am; I ve showed I m in 


Lanza: good health for a nan of my age. I enjoy life. 

So the use of that wine I don t say that s why I 
feel well, but as I do with coffee, in the morning: 
I ll take one or two cups of coffee but no more in the 
day. I can t touch it. If I had coffee at noon I d 
get heartburn and I wouldn t be able to sleep that 
night. So why? There s a certain time and a certain 
place that I need it. And so as I say there is going 
to be a lot of people that are going to form those 
habits that I have. And I can t stand beer. I used 
to like beer when on the hot days I d be driving, and 
I d find that the minu.te I took a glass of beer or a 
bottle of beer, when I was thirsty, then I would be 
thirsty for water, water, water, which was not the fact 
if I left the beer alone. 

Well, it s just an illustration, and I believe 
there is a future for grape growing and grape products. 
And we haven t seen the end yet. 



I m going to interview next Mr. Baccigaluppi. You ve 
known him since 1922, did he say? I thought you might 
be* able to tell me a little about him. How did you 
happen to meet him? 

He was 21 when I met him. 

I ll tell you how it came 

When Prohibition came, it came in 1918. But it 
was in effect from November, 1918, until the following 
year, what we called wartime Prohibition. And then it 
was the real Volstead Act that started the following 

The Colonial Grape Products Company that we had 
here was shipping wines to New York to a firm that 
was engaged in importation of goods from Italy cheese, 
sauces , tomato saiice and wines and so forth. And 
Harry was an office boy vxho worked there. The man at 
the head of that firm, which was then called Cella 
not this Cella, the wine business here, but the same 
name Cella on West Broadway, New York, he began to get 
jittery. His name was [Louis] Profumo, the gentleman 
that managed Cella Brothers. He began to worry. We 
were selling wine to the Jewish trade, through 
government channels, mind you. And the report on the 
street was that sometimes these Jewish rabbis took the 
wine they bought it for sacramental purposes but before 

Lanza: it got to the church the truck would break down 

somewhere along the line, do you see? And he began 
to worry. 

Well, I was one that didn t believe in Prohibition 
anyway. And I didn t do anything to get in trouble 
with the government, but if I saw that you bov.ght for 
sacramental purposes but went around the corner and 
drank it yourself, I didn t care a darn. My conscience 
wasn t hurt. But this gentleman, as I say, feared that 
the fact that some of the rabbis were buying more than 
they could serve in the synagogue, that he might get 
into trouble. So he proposed to my associate, Mr. 
Pederspiel. He said, "Look, there s a young fellow 
here in the office. He s a bright boy and he s a good 
boy. I suggest to you that you appoint him as your 
agent. But I ll back him, I ll direct him and I ll 
counsel him right along." So Harry starts to work for 
the Colonial Grape Products Company. I am the vice- 
president and general manager of the Colonial Grape 
Products Company. So he comes under my Jurisdiction, 
do you see. 

When we formed the Colonial Grape Products 
Company, Pederspiel was very nice. He said, "Now what 
would you like to be in the corporation?" I said, "It 
doesn t matter what I will be, as long as I ll have the 
distribution in the East." I said, "I suggest Mr. 
Schilling [as president]." He says, "No, Mr. Schilling 
can t take the position," because he had sold out and 
signed [a contract that] he couldn t become interested 
[in any wine company].* "Well, then," I said, "how 
about you yourself?" So we made him president, Pederspiel. 
That s how he came to be president. And I was placed to 
be vice-president, but general manager. 

So he [Harry Baccigaluppi] came to work for me, as 
I say, that early, and it must have been in 1922 I would 
say. He was born in 1901, so he was 21 years old. 

Telser: He must have liked the Job, since he seems to have 
stayed with you. 

Lanza: Yes, indeed. He came up, and he has had ability, and I 
also was glad when I made that killing in Los Angeles 

*See pp. 7-8. 


Lanza: that I told you about, I gave $350,000 through the 

representation of stock that they had subscribed to, 
to Harry. And you can see how much I thought of him 
and other fellows. 


I don t mean to mention it with pride, but I do 
get satisfaction from the fact that I feel I ve made 
about a dozen men rich. And most of them have proven 
themselves worthy. But then four or five that have 
disappointed me, bitterly. But that s life. 

Teiser: I think that s a pretty good average. 

Lanza: Yes, indeed thank God, yes, indeed. And that s the 
way that Harry thinks the world of me. And I think 
the world of him. 

Teiser: I understand that the whole industry thinks very 
highly of him. 

Lanza: Oh indeed. [Laughter] Well, I won t take the credit 
for all of that, but some of it. But his father was 
a great man. His mother was a wonderful woman of the 
old style. And Harry himself, I think some of us are 
born, you know, to be attracted to the nicer ways of 
life, to nicer things. When we say a great artist, a 
great singer, a great manager, I think that the native 
traits have something to do with it. Not all, but 
something to do with that. When you re born, as I say, 
if your inclination is on the noble side, you enjoy the 
credit. I feel very fortunate. 

Now, look, strange as you may think, I ve got an 
inferiority complex. I think I have always had. And 
yet when I lost my temper I didn t know any man that 
was my equal in the sense of competition or of fight. 
I felt as big as the biggest there ever was, which is 
inconsistent. But I think I learned that inferiority 
complex because of the wonderful mother that I had. 
She was a great disciplinarian so far as the family 
was concerned. She loved us as any mother could love. 
But discipline was discipline, and we shouldn t talk 
when elders are talking, we shouldn t do anything that 
wasn t right and all that. 


Lanza: And my father, very much the same. His favorite 
word or advice to us was always, "Don t." Don t do 
this or don t do that, for fear you might offend or 
intrude. My mother s was the opposite. It was "Get 
out of here! Get out of here! " She wouldn t have 
us around the house, that is the boys. One of her 
familiar expressions was, for instance, if we would 
hang around the kitchen, she would shoo us out and she 
was very religious, but when she lost her temper she 
could swear like any trooper that I have ever seen. 
And she d say, "Get out of here! Get out of here!" 
She d say, "By jingo, even if I am dead and gone and 
I hear that you re going to wear dresses and let 
some poor woman s daughter do the man s work, I ll get 
up from my grave and raise hell with you." And she 
meant it. [Laughter] 

So, as I say, I grew up to be careful not to do 
this, not to do that. That has followed me throughout 
life. If I ve ever done anything that I ve been 
ashamed of, it has been due to that inferiority 
complex, such as being invited by dignified people, 
accepting when I had to accept and then failed to show 
up. Silly stuff like that. Because I ll tell you 
of the first party that I went to, just to illustrate. 

I had the misfortune of losing my mother when I 
was 14- years of age. So we grew up in the family, 
you know, with a lot of kind friends and kind neighbors. 
When I went to school, besides being a foreigner against 
whom there was prejudice in those days (the Italians 
were regarded, let us say, as we regard the Mexicans: 
you know, a little bit inferior) okay. I never, I 
went to school with boys and girls in the town and the 
neighborhood, never went inside of their houses. I 
was never asked, never brought inside of anybody s 
house other than the Italian boys. So in the graduating 
class of the normal school, which means I was then 18 
years of age, the French teacher had a party for her 
students. Well, I had taken languages a good deal 
because they were easy for me. That is, at least I 
thought so. So I had taken three years of Latin, two 
years of French, one year of Greek, and in this 
graduating year just before graduation the French 
teacher invited the class to a party, at her house. 

So I went, and a dear old lady that used to talk 
to me at times and give me advice, said to me, "Whan 
you finish with the party you thank the teacher for the 


Lanza: nice time yon had." So I went in there with that 

admonition. I was going to say thank you. While we 
are holding the party there is a girl who is the 
daughter of a banker, in a banking family. And she was 
a little bit on the dumb side in class. We had little 
jokes, in French, and she, thinking that I was a wizard 
in French, she would be consulting me to make the 
translations for her. So she was with me more or less 
all the evening in this room. About 20 of us youngsters 
were there. Finally it came time for refreshments, and 
they were passing the trays, and when they came to ne I 
took a tray. The minute I took that tray I saw I made 
a mistake, because the other boys hadn t taken any. 
You see? It wasn t right for me to take it. And I 
was so nervous, I shake and the thing falls to the 
floor. And what was bad enough I made worse with that 
mess, because I had never been in a party before. 

Going out, I m waiting to say good night to the 
teacher, you know, and I had a good time, as this 
dear old lady had told me. And there is the banker s 
daughter talking to her and there is the daughter of 
a minister with her brother, that were also in the 
class. And I m waiting for them to get through. 
They re talking and I m waiting, they re talking and 
finally they get through and the three youngsters walked 
out. So I walked up to the teacher, said my little 
speech, and went home. The next morning when we go 
back to class this minister s son, he said, "What the 
hell did Bessie do that you didn t ask her to take her 
home?" He said, "By God, we were waiting there." They 
were talking to the teacher waiting for me to ask the 
banker s daughter if I could take her home. I saw I 
had made another mistake. [Laughter] 

And then of course the next time there was a party 
the first thing I asked the banker s daughter if I could 
take her home. Just to illustrate how an environment 
of that kind instilled that inferiority complex, which 
as I said has been mortifying to me on a number of 
occasions, but not out of viciousness. Of stupidity. 

University of California Bancroft Library/Berkeley 

Regional Oral History Office 

Harry Baccigaluppi 

With an Introduction by 
Maynard A. Amerlne 

An Interview Conducted by 
Ruth Teiser 

1971 by The Regents of The University of California 

Harry Baccigaluppi discussing the interview, 1970, 
Photograph by Catherine Harroun. 

All uses of this manuscript are covered by a 
legal agreement between the Regents of the University 
of California and Harry Baccigaluppi , dated 25 November, 
1970. 1*i e manuscript is thereby made available for 
research purposes. All literary rights in the manuscript, 
including the right to publish, are reserved to the 
Bancroft Library of the University of California at 
Berkeley. No part of the manuscript may be quoted for 
publication without the written permission of the Director 
of The Bancroft Library of the University of California 
at Berkeley. 

Requests for permission to quote for publication 
should be addressed to the Regional Oral History Office, 
486 Library, and should include identification of the 
specific passages to be quoted, anticipated use of the 
passages, and identification of the user. Bie legal 
agreement with Harry Baccigaluppi requires that he be 
notified of the request and allowed thirty days in which 
to respond. 



The interview with Harry Bacclgaluppi was held in two 
sessions, on February 26 and 27 19^9 in his office at 
Galgrape Wineries, Inc., San Francisco, It is in part a 
continuation of Mr. Lanza s interview and in part an account of 
his own activities. There is continuity between the two careers 
in both individual winery affairs and general industry affairs, 
Mr. Lanza, a founder of the Wine Institute, was earlier an 
active participant in industry committees, as Mr. Baccigaluppi 
has been more recently and to this date. 

The initia.1 transcript of the interview was sent to Mr. 
Baccigaluppi at the same time Mr. Lanza s went to him, in 
September 19&9- ^h e interviewer had taken one passage out of 
its original sequence and placed it in chronological order. 
Mr. Baccigaluppi rewrote one passage, adding detail. Beyond 
those changes, the editing consisted of Mr. Baccigaluppi s 
word corrections and brief additions for clarification. 

Mr. Baccigaluppi spoke easily, sometimes recalling without 
effort, at other times searching his memory carefully, always 
with obvious regard for accuracy and fairness. 

In addition to giving this interview, Mr. Baccigaluppi 
has generously searched both his files and his memory for 
answers to many questions asked during the research underlying 
the entire wine industry series. His broad experience and 
close knowledge of the industry during the Prohibition and 
early Repeal years, a period of few records, have been of 
invaluable aid. 

Ruth Teiser, 

January 1971 

6 The Bancroft Library 
University of California at Berkeley 



Harry Baccigaluppl was born in New York in 1901, of 
Italian-born parents. He went to school there and by going 
to night school while working obtained a degree in civil 
engineering in 1923. 

From 1916 until 1922 he worked for a general grocery 
and wine firm in New York. Since 1922 he has been associated 
with the wine business of Horace 0. Lanza, since 19^3 in 

His recollections cover a wide range of information but 
the main events that stand out are Prohibition operations 
in New York, the sale of wines in bulk, and his work to achieve 
financial stability for the California wine industry. 

During Prohibition his firm did mainly sacramental wine 
business Jewish and Catholic. They also sold wine to 
tobacco and soup companies. The legal and other problems of 
doing a legitimate business during this period are well covered. 
He also gives useful information on how the California concentrate 
was distributed and used in the eastern United States. 

The sale of wine in bulk was the principal business of 
his firm for many years. Here the picture is one of his firm 
supplying good quality wines to appreciative customers for 
many years to one, at least, for 33 years. 

Finally, as he explains, because bulk wine prices were 
particularly subject to rapid fluctuations in prices, he 
became one of the chief architects of California stabilization 
plans. Setting up these plans required a great deal of patient 
negotiation. Baccigaluppi was a master of this, and it was 
thanks to his quiet persuasion that some of them ever got going. 
His services as president of the Wine Institute may also be 
cited as one of his many efforts to help stabilize the 
California wine industry. What does not appear in this Oral 
History is Baccigaluppi s service over the years on so many 
Wine Institute and Wine Advisory Board committees: executive, 
medical research, trade relations, etc., etc. Whether as 
presiding officer or committee member, all recall his unfailing 
courtesy, patience, humor and clear thinking. 


As a footnote, since he and Ernest Wente refer to the 
history of the variety St. Emilion (Ugnl blanc, Trebbiano) 
in California, it might be worthwhile to record that Eugene 
Waldemar Hilgard tested the variety in California in 1884, 
188?, 1888, 1889, 1890, 1892 1893 and 1894- from Pulsom, 
Cupertino, Natoina, Tulare and Paso Robles.* 

Maynard A. Amerine 
Professor, Viticulture 
and Enology 

January 1971 

101 Wickson Hall 

University of California at Davis 

*The university of California. Report of the viticulture work 
during the seasons 1887-1893, with data regarding the vintages 
of 189^-1895- Sacramento. A.J. Johnston, Superintendent 
State Printing, 1896 (see pp. 23^-236). 

(Interview with Harry Baccigaluppi , San Francisco, 
February 26, 1969) 


Teiser: May we start with the beginning of your life? 

Bacci.: All right, we can start with the beginning. Now that, 
so far as any active participation in any kind of work, 
goes back to 1916. 

Teiser: Let me ask you when you were born and where. 

Bacci.: I was born in New York on August the 2nd, 1901. In 
1916, I was a high school boy, and my dad was one of 
those men who believed that while play was good that 
work was even more important. And that spending too 
much time after school playing was not the way to 
develop your life. And with that he had made arrange 
ments through an old friend of his whom he had been 
instrumental in getting started in the wholesale 
grocery and wine business some years before. As a 
matter of fact he had even been a salesman for him, 
one time traveling throughout the country. So I found 
myself going to high school and then getting through 
around one o clock, and then having a quick bite and 
immediately went to G. Cella & Brother, where I did 
the usual chores an office boy would do. I had no 
qualifications for anything except a willingness to 

It was quite an interesting experience, and I say 
it had a great deal to do with molding my interests 
in life, among other things. Although I came from a 
family (both my mother and father were born in Italy) 


Bacci . : 


Bacci. : with an Italian background, I dare say that the 

opportunity to actually cultivate a speaking knowledge 
of the language would have been lost in great part if 
it hadn t been for the fact that I was thrown into 
this wholesale grocery business. 

"Was this G. Cella & Brother? 

This was G. Cella & Brother, right. 

There was no connection with the California Cella 

No, there was no connection at all. As a matter of 
fact they at that time were also doing business in 
New York, and they were then known as the Cella Wine 
Company. I remember they were somewhere up on Second 
Avenue. Their business consisted substantially, as I 
recall it, of receiving wine in barrels from California 
(they may have had some imports too; I don t know) and 
then breaking those down into five -gallon demijohns 
and then of cotirse finally delivering them to families 
in the immediate area. And I think it was Lori 
[Lorenzo] Cella, one of the two brothers, who drove a 
horse and wagon, or stayed in the office I don t 
remember which. But old J.B. Cella was the man who 
would deliver these five-gallon Jugs on his back and 
he d walk up tenement houses [carrying them], you know. 
Their business was largely that. On the other hand, 
G. Cella & Brother was a more diversified kind of an 
operation. It was largely groceries and largely Italian 
groceries. And by Italian I mean actually imports, 
most of everything, and for a long time it was imports. 
And I think, as I remember it now, they began to 
diversify later on and began to bring in some American 
products as well. 

So there we were. They were buying wines in 
barrels from California. 

Teiser: What size barrels were they? 

Bacci.: Fifty-gallon barrels. And many of the families bought 
50-gallon barrels. They did a whale of a business, for 
instance, shipping into the mining towns of Pennsylvania, 
where even the miner himself would buy a 50-gallon 
barrel for his family, or some little boarding house 
would buy it and dispense it to its boarders. And that 
was a sizable business. As a matter of fact I also 


Baccl.: have a hazy recollection of not too close a record 
being kept, but most of this stuff that went into 
Pennsylvania to the individuals went on a C.O.D. basis. 
And I have recollection that a close record wasn t even 
kept of whether or not these people paid or not. So 
long as they had gone out, and nobody could take 
delivery unless they had paid for it, assuming of 
course that the express company would make payment 
after receiving payment themselves. You d think that 
the record of the American Express Company [would have 
been sufficient]. Then they became Railway Express 
Agency, as against what it is today, an entirely 
different agency. It f s on the downgrade considerably. 
It s a very unreliable means of transportation today. 
It s a pity that they ve sunken so low because, they ve 
just become absolutely undependable. That isn t my 
judgement; it s the judgement of anybody who has had 
to use them. 

So here we are then, working there as a boy. And, 
mind you, no arrangements had been made for salary or 
anything. As a matter of fact I think my dad must 
have put it on the basis that he wanted to keep his son 
occupied. In those days you didn t pay your help by 
check. You were paid by cash; you paid in cash. I 
shall always remember the end of that first week. 
Incidentally, this job consisted of working from 1 to 
6, 6:30 and all day on Saturday. And I remember this 
first Saturday afternoon, it must have been around 5 
o clock, we were getting close to the time when we d be 
closing up, and close to that time the boss, Mr. Cella, 
would go around distributing the envelopes to those 
who had worked. 

I remember his coming over to me and saying he 
didn t want me to work for nothing. He went on to 
suggest that perhaps that was the arrangement but he 
wanted me to have an envelope like everybody else. 
And I remember taking this envelope home and giving it 
to my mother. And she said, "No, it s yours. 11 I said, 
"No, half of it is yours." I didn t know what was in 
it at all. She opened up the envelope, and there was 
a dollar in it. [Laughter] There was a dollar in it. 
So when people talk to me about having started from 
the bottom, when they talk about $4 a week or $5 a 
week or $10 a week, I say to myself, brother, no matter 
how low you started, you couldn t have started any 
lower than I did. [Laughter] 


3acci.: Well, this went along. I think that was In the 

month of April and then of course the school vacations 
came along. And at that point it was all day long, 
from 8 o clock in the morning until 6 o clock at night 
and all day on Saturday and then I remember my salary 
was raised, to $4 a week. [Laughter] 

It proved to be a very, very interesting experience, 
and truthfully I would say that the position I occupy 
today is Just a continuation of that employment, because 
due to company changes and corporate changes one seemed 
to sort of glide into another without any interruption 
at all. So I can truthfully say that from 1916 to the 
present I wasn t out of work one day of my life. No 
break in there of any kind. 

Now G. Cella & Brother later merged with a competing 
outfit, a larger one, known as Cella Brothers. And that 
was Cella Brothers Incorporated. And this outfit then 
became "Cella Brothers -G. Cella & Brother." Well, that 
came about as the result of Cella Brothers having been 
bought by one of the outstanding Italian import houses 
of its day, L. Gandolfi & Company. And they then merged 
these three companies together. And then by virtue of 
having had some experience I acquired new responsibilities 
in this new Cella Brothers-G. Cella & Brother. Cella 
Brothers hyphen G. Cella & Brother. 

Teiser: What did your responsibilities become then? 

Baccl.: Oh, I would say that I was a sort of a billing clerk 
and junior bookkeeper, without having really any 
knowledge of bookkeeping. I should tell you also that 
in 1918 when I graduated from high school I then decided 
I was going to go into engineering. And the family 
economy not being too strong, I of course had to seek 
some means of getting an education that wouldn t cost 
the family anything. So while I had been offered a 
scholarship to Cornell, I selected instead Cooper 
Union in the city of New York. It had been founded by 
Peter Cooper way back in the 1860 s, and was designed 
for Just such boys as were in my economic circumstances. 
Then even there, although there was no tuition involved, 
I elected to take the night course so I could continue 
earning money during the day. 

And that went on for five years for five nights a 
week, and in 1923 I then graduated with a degree in 
civil engineering. 


Bacol.: Now in the Interim of course Prohibition had come 
about, and it was in 1922 that Mr. Lanza had come on 
a trip to New York, because the law then provided that 
if you had a winery, let*s say in California at this 
time he was a partner in the Colonial Grape Products 
Company if you had a wine producing company, you could 
also have a bonded storeroom elsewhere for the sale 
and distribution of your wines. He thought of New 
York of course as being the logical market. In those 
days New York was the one great market in the country 
that you looked to as a possible source of distribution 
of anything. And he came there and apparently came 
there on instructions from his not instructions, but 
after discussion with his associate, Mr. Sophus 
Federsplel, who had one good friend in New York. 

This one good friend was a man by the name of 
Louis Profumo. Louis Profumo was then the manager of 
Cella Brothers -G. Cella & Brother, having been the 
prior manager of Cella Brothers. He was then the 
manager of Cella Brothers-G. Cella & Brother, and had 
been, before his association with Cella Brothers, the 
New York manager of the old Italian Swiss Colony under 
Mr. Pederspiel, who was the general manager of the 
Italian Swiss Colony. And Mr. Lanza came in to see 
him to find out if he could take care of this operation 
that consisted of operating the branch bonded storeroom. 

Profumo was unwilling to take it on because of his 
other duties and responsibilities. But he said to him, 
"Look, I f ve got a young man in the organization here 
whom I think might have some possibilities and he may 
be able to fit in." 

Well, the next thing you know this little office 
operated by the Colonial Grape Products Company was 
operated under the general supervision of Cella Brothers- 
G. Cella & Brother. But it was a separate entity. 
Nothing that we did entered into the books of Cella 
Brothers-G. Cella & Brother, but the Cella Brothers 
received a commission of some kind for this supervision. 
So I started from there, as a kid. 



Teiser: You were in charge of that office? 

Bacci.: I was in charge of that office, yes. It was a very 
small office; it was a very small operation. 

Teiser: What was its address? 

Bacci.: The address at that time was ^-2? West Broadway. We 
had an office there, and we had a warehouse. The 
warehouse, for the warehousing of these wines these 
wines had to be kept in bond. At the start, I remember, 
these wines were stored in the P.C. Linde warehouse, 
which was a public warehouse, and that created all 
kinds of problems. We didn t even have at the time an 
employee working in the warehouse. For instance, If 
we had to draw a sample, I would call this man who 
was then taken into our employ on a sort of a part-time 
basis. He was the former cellar man for Italian Swiss 
Colony in New York, but with Prohibition he had gone 
into the contracting business. One of the most capable 
individuals I have ever met in my life. His name was 
Dick Bongiorno. I have never met in all of my life a 
more dedicated, a more conscientious workman than this 
fellow, or a more competent one. When I look around me 
today and see the kind of people who are drawing down 
heavy pay for mediocre work, and I think of poor Dick. 
I am often tempted, on trips to New York, to try and 
establish some kind of contact with his family. I d 
like to go out to Calvary Cemetery or wherever he may 
be buried, and put a wreath on his grave. And that s 
how I felt about the fellow. 

Later we decided that this operation at the P.C. 
Linde warehouse, when we became a little more active, 
was not a practical way of operating we then rented 
space in a warehouse that was owned by the New York 
Central Railroad. It wasn t a warehouse; actually it 
was a loft building, and we had taken a floor in that 
for the storage of these wines. And Dick then came in 
on a full-time basis. 

I remember one Christmas eve when I went over 
there (it was customary to give our employees, I think 
it was either two weeks or a month s salary, I forget 
what it was) this particular Christmas eve happened 
to coincide with a payday, so that I went over to him 

Baccl.: with two envelopes. We were still paying in cash. I 
went up with two envelopes and I said, "Dick, this is 
your regular pay and this is a little bonus from the 
company in appreciation of your work throughout the 
year." His answer was "This I f ll take, but that I 
won t take." He said, "We didn t do enough business 
this year for that." This is a workman mind you, 
this is a workman. Now I ll ask you, go scouring the 
countryside and you find another one like him. The 
man was just a tremendous worker. I remember a period 
there when business was so active, that every week 
four carloads of wine would come in from California. 
That was approximately 400 barrels. And 400 barrels 
would be going out. And he handled all of it by 
himself. Every bit of it by himself, which would 
actually mean not only bringing it in but stacking it 
up two or three high. If he had to go into the third 
tier he might call the elevator man and tell him to 
give him a little lift. Then he would filter every 
barrel of wine. Mind you, this wasn t in tanks. This 
was filtering from one barrel into another barrel. 

Teiser: Why? 

Bacci.: Because you have to make certain that none of the 
sometimes a little piece of wood from the cooperage 
might be floating around, so you always went through 
the process of filtering these wines. In those days, 
among other things, remember, that this was before 
the industry had recognized the necessity of refrigerating 
wines in order to preserve their clarity. In those 
days nobody filtered. If a wine had a little sediment 
in it, so a wine had a little sediment in it. It was 
an accepted thing. Today you can t give it away if it 
has a little sediment in it. 

I remember my father used to buy this is prior to 
Prohibition would buy wine in five-gallon demijohns 
for our family use. I remember that sometimes he d 
start pouring and it would be a little cloudy. And 
he d say, "Well, I ve got to go down and tell this 
fellow that he d better give the bottom of the barrel 
to somebody else occasionally, 11 you see. But it wasn t 
a major complaint. Everybody would like to get the 
prime cut of beef, you see. But it was Just an accepted 

It Just about started during the Prohibition period 
when clarity began to be so important. And you know it 
wasn t until after Repeal that the industry generally 


Bacci.: and It was some time after Repeal before the industry 
generally recognized the necessity of subjecting wines 
to what we now call a cold holding process, where you 
bring these wines down to low temperatures for the 
purpose of precipitating the bitartrates. And it s 
these bitartrates, if they re in suspension, that 
represent your sediment largely. But it was sometime 
after Prohibition that the industry as a matter of 
fact, one of our prime (I don t want to mention his 
name today) premium wine operators today, a man of 
national, even international reputation, went along 
for a few years denying that this was the way to make 
wine. But he finally had to succumb too, because 
marketing needs had changed. 

Teiser: What size containers did your wine go out in? 

Bacci.: In 50-gallon barrels, yes. Oh, there would be an 

occasional one who wanted some 15-gallon kegs, or half- 
barrels, what we called half -barrels, the 25-gallon 
barrel. But they were most [50-gallon] barrels. 

Teiser: Who vxere your customers? 

Bacci.: Now we re talking about this Prohibition period? Our 
customers represented principally sacramental wine 
users. They were your principal customers. But then 
you had a sizable clientele, if not in the same volume 
as the sacramental wine, that was represented by those 
houses who had obtained permission from the Prohibition 
Department to use wine in the manufacture of some non- 
beverage product or in the processing of some product. 
And these were houses for instance, a soup manufacturer 
was one of them, a tobacco manufacturer was another, 
who would treat his leaf tobacco. They would dip this 
leaf Into a blend of certain wines and shake the excess 
moisture off and then put it in what they called a 
curing room. This was then put on racks and this 
tobacco in the course of this curing (it was a temperature 
controlled room and I suppose htnnidity controlled too) 
would then improve the flavor of the tobacco. They 
felt it gave their cigars a certain distinction. 

In that period there were some who, for that same 
purpose, were using cider to cure. And there was one 
that was using something else that I thought was 
strange. Now it doesn t come to me. Oh yes, vinegar 
was the other one. Of course this vinegar would be 
diluted. The principle there perhaps was Just about 


Bacci.: the same as the principle used by the other cigar 
manufacturers, who were using wine, The "basic 
principle would be that of imparting flavor. Oh, some 
of them used rum in some form too. 

So the great problem in that period was actually 
finding who an eligible purchaser might be. Because 
you found if these were called, now it comes to me, 
these were called "H permits." That s right, "H permits." 
That was a designation that had been given to it by the 
Prohibition Department. Now if you asked for a list 
of the H permittees, then you found you got a list with 
maybe 10,000 names on it and you had to sort of read 
between the lines and see if anybody in there might be 
using something other than alcohol for laboratory 
purposes. I remember among other names on this list 
was the IRT, the Interborough Rapid Transit Company, 
which was the subway and elevated line in the city of 
New York. 

So the job of finding who your eligible buyers 
might be was a tedious one. One of the ways of doing 
it would be to go past a delicatessen window or a 
drugstore and if you saw beef, iron and wine, which 
was a very common tonic in those days I suppose it 
took the place of our present Geritol beef, iron and 
wine, and then you d take a look to see who the 
manufacturer was and then try to make contact with him 
and see if you could reach some basis for making a sale. 
Or in delicatessens you might go looking for wine jelly 
manufacturers or some non-beverage delicacy prepared 
with wine. As I say, the large bulk of it went the 
sacramental route. 

Teiser: What types of wines were you handling at that time? 

Bacci.: They were all types of wines. Basically I remember in 
the dry wines, basically in the dry wines it was 
burgundy, claret, Zinfandel, chablis, sauterne and 
Riesling. They were basically the dry wines, the table 
wines. In the dessert wines we ran the whole gamut. 
It was port, sherry, muscatel, tokay, angelica angelica 
was quite a popular type. 

Teiser: What was angelica used for? 

Bacci.: Well, it was just another sweet wine. I would say that 
the angelica perhaps later became our white port. But 
it was a different type of product entirely. It had the 


Bacci.: same basic ingredients, same amount of alcohol and 
about the same sugar percentage. White port was 
actually an angelica that had been treated to remove 
some of the color. Angelica had a sort of an amber 
color, very much like a sherry. But a white port, of 
course, had gotten to the point where they were 
looking for it almost colorless. But I don t remember 
any white port during the Prohibition period at all. 

Teiser: What was the proportion of sweet wines to table wines? 

Bacci.: During the Prohibition period? Oh, the proportion of 
sweet wines was far, far, far above the table wine. 
The table wine represented a very, very small part of 
it. Even for sacramental purposes, in the Jewish faith, 
they were used to sweet wines. In the Catholic church 
they used practically an angelica, so everything was 
in that direction. And insofar as manufacturing 
purposes were concerned, only a very limited amount of 
table wines went into any type of manufacture, you see. 
So that s what it represented largely, and we really 
went into the Repeal period in pretty much those same 
proportions. It was pretty much that. 

This is one of the things that I remember in the 
pre-Prohibition period. Now they, G. Cella & Brother 
would buy wines from, I remember some of the names now. 
The R. Martini Wine Company was one of them. Another 
one was Samuele Sebastian! . That was another one. 
Another one was the Scatena Wine Company. There was 
another one there, now it escapes me. But I remember 

Teiser: R. Martini had nothing to do with Louis Martini? 
Bacci.: No. R. Martini had nothing to do with Louis Martini. 
Teiser: Was it a California wine company? 

Bacci.: Yes. To give you an idea, even in the pre-Prohibitlon 
period now this of course might have been an exception, 
having in mind that this was a house catering 
principally to Italians they would buy wines in 
barrels in thousands of barrel lots from any one of 
these three or a combination of the three I have 
mentioned here, and there may have been one or two 
others that are not clearly in mind at the moment. They 
would buy thousands of barrels, and yet to take care of 
their dessert wine trade, they would buy from the 
California Wine Association, who had a warehouse in New 


Bacci.: York City, five barrels of port or five barrels of 

sherry. And that would last for an awful long time. 
So it was a ratio of thousands of barrels to ten 
barrels. That was Just about the ratio of sales at 
that particular time. It was that wide. Dessert 
wine was something that actually nobody even thought 
about . 

That may have accounted for the fact that when I 
received this assignment to supervise, as a kid, this 
Colonial Grape Products branch operation, I didn t 
know the difference between a sherry and a muscatel. 
And I remember I used to send over to the warehouse 
and call my friend Dick and ask him he had no labels 
over there of any kind, we would attach the labels in 
our little office and I d ask him to make sure to 
mark the corks. So the cork would be marked P for a 
port and S for a sherry and M for a muscatel. And then 
I began to taste the two and began to find the 
difference for myself so that in time I could pick 
them out without [laughter] having the corks marked. 

Well, actually I had been put into the Job with 
no special qualifications except that of a custodian, 
I suppose. You weren t asked to pass a test where you 
could prove your knowledge or show your ignorance of 
wines. There was no such thing as that, just "This 
is it, Harry." So that s the way the thing started. 


Teiser: Did you have a pilferage problem? 

Bacci.: We didn t have any pilferage in the warehouse. The 

temptation was always there, of course. But so far as 
pilferage in the warehouse was concerned, I would say 
it was absolutely negligible. You had pilferage on the 
way to the warehouse. That was an old custom. People 
handling cargo... 

Teiser: Did you Just figure it out in your whole operation on 
a percentage? 

Bacci.: Well, it was part of the operation. It was always a 
very difficult thing too. And the way [laughter] the 
pilfering was done was interesting. One of the ways 


Bacci.z in which it was done was to remove a hoop mind you, 
remove a hoop and put a little gimlet hole into the 
space on the barrel occupied by the hoop, and take 
the wine out through that little gimlet hole and then 
plug the hole, and then put the hoop back again, you 
see, so there were no outward signs of pilferage at 
all. But although the barrel showed no outward signs 
of leakage it wasn t full, you see. [Laughter] We 
would run into that occasionally, but not too 
frequently. Actually I dare say we ran into it more 
frequently before Prohibition than we did during 
Prohibition. There was a certain wariness of being 
caught handling this forbidden commodity, you see, so 
it sort of went down the line. So actually I don t 
remember any real pilferage problem. 

Telser: No hijacking either, I suppose. 

Bacci.: No. We never experienced any, and it s my recollection 
that whatever hijacking took place during that period, 
it was beer trucks that were hijacked for some reason 
or other, and trucks carrying alcohol or spirits 
because even those, you see, could be sold legally to 
permittees with a very strict control kept over the 
operation. To give you an idea how strict the control 
was, I remember one little outfit that we had there, 
sort of a subsidiary of Cella Brothers-G. Cella & 
Brother, a little outfit called the E.G. Lyons Company. 
Their roots were in California; they started here. 
Well, you ve seen these syrups called Lyons-Magnus or 
something? Well, he was a brother of this Lyons. 
This one back there was Roger Lyons. I forget the 
name of this one. 

Anyway, in the course of their operation they 
started to make a product that they were licensed to 
make by an Italian concern. It was called zabagllone. 
And in the course of making this they felt they had 
need for rum, and they bought rum, as a little 
flavoring, you see. They could go a little farther 
with rum than they could with Marsala. So the operation 
bought a case of 2*f pints of this rum. One pint was 
used in this operation and later was found to be either 
unnecessary or unsatisfactory. So monthy, for a number 
of years, we were required to file a report of our 
Inventory and use, and would show these 23 pints on 
hand, 23 pints on hand, 23 pints on hand. And it 
finally got to the point where we decided there was 
nothing we could do with it: let s file an application 
to dump it. You see, you couldn t sell it. 


Bacci.: We filed the application, and it was granted, and 
this inspector came down I don t know whether I should 
mention names here. His name was Harriman, and I 
believe he was a member of the Harriman family, the 
Averell Harriman family. I don t know how closely 
related he was, but I remember the story being at the 
time that he was part of an old railroad family and 
somehow had gone off in the direction of being a 
government gauger or government inspector. 

So he came down there to this loft where we 
conducted this little E.G. Lyons operation, checked 
all the records and then wanted to see the commodities. 
And I had my man bring out this case. The 23 pints 
were in there, and he said, "Well, where do we dump 
it?" So we went over to the sink. And then we set 
this little box on a drain board, let us say, and he 
proceeded to take these bottles and started to pour 
the rum down the sink. My man was standing there with 
his tongue hanging out, and I m there with my tongue 
hanging out not because I particularly liked rum, 
but again you see it was that forbidden fruit. And I 
think he dumped about 15 bottles or something, and I 
said to him, "Do we really have to dump all of it?" 
And he said, "Well, that s what we re supposed to do!" 

"Don t we accomplish the same thing? Now you ve 
dumped most of it. Now suppose you take two bottles, 
I ll take two bottles, and we ll give Otto here two 
bottles . " And that s the way the rest of the dumping 
was done. [Laughter] 

Teiser: So somebody had a heart. 

Bacci.: Well, he was set on dumping all of it until a way out 

was shown him, see. He wasn t going to take it himself; 
it wasn t he and I who were going to take it. But so 
long as I suppose there were three of us who were 
accomplices of this crime, we were all safe. [Laughter] 

Well, that gives you an idea, Miss Teiser, of the 
kind of supervision that was exercised over this 

There was one period there when actually the 
supervisory authorities had been rather liberal in the 
way of issuing the perimits for the purchase of 
sacramental wines, until there a change was made. I 
think the change took place in Chicago. There must 


Baccl.: have been some abuses In Chicago some place, and the 
first thing you know they stepped up supervision, 
and the tightening of issuance of permits extended to 
New York. Well then the business practically came to 
a dead stop. And they did it in this way: they asked 
the rabbi to give a list of all the members of his 
congregation who received wine and on what date and in 
what quantity. And at that point the thing became a 
little bit sticky, I suppose. And all of a sudden the 
business practically came to a stop. The synagogues 
were just as great for religious purposes as they had 
been before, but for some reason or other it wasn t 
quite necessary to have wine. That s the way the thing 
developed. All of a sudden. 

Teiser: What about the Catholic church? 

Baoci.: The Catholics? Well, the Catholic church was more 

stringent, In that the permit had to be issued by the 
bishop of the diocese, you see. It had to receive his 
approval first. It didn t have to go through the 
Prohibition Department; it was the bishop who placed 
his approvel on the priest s application. And the 
difference I think was due to the difference in the 
church structure. The one was a hierarchical form of 
church organization and the other was a very free and 
loose and easy thing. As a matter of fact, I remember 
some people who claimed to be rabbis and in later 
years their own fellow rabbis, would dissociate them 
selves from them. I remember one in particular. Here 
I won t mention the name. 

This rabbi whom we served during the Prohibition 
period later went into the wine business after Repeal, 
and he wanted to buy kosher wine from us, which meant 
wine that had to be produced under the supervision of 
a rabbi, at the producing winery. And he wanted to 
make certain a certain rabbi was there. No, let s see, 
it was the supervising rabbi who had refused to give 
his approval, his kosher approval, unless a certain 
rabbi at the other end the receiving end would 
supervise the operation. Well, I called his attention 
to the fact that the owner of the receiving winery was 
a rabbi. I said, "Now why do you need another rabbi? 
Why add to the cost of the operation? 11 He said, "You 
call him a rabbi? He s a chicken killer." [Laughter] 
You see, apparently they had various degrees of rabbis, 
and he was one of those who was known as a chicken 



Teiser: I wanted to ask you about the concentrates and the 

grape juice shipped during Prohibition. Did you have 
experience with them? 

Bacci.: Yes, yes. Now there was very little grape Juice, 

actually straight grape juice as such, shipped during 
the period. Whatever grape juice was shipped was 
actually reconstituted concentrate. The grape juice 
would have to be shipped under refrigeration to prevent 
its fermenting, and you know that under the law (I 
think we covered that before) it was possible to make 
wine in the home providing it was not intoxicating in 
fact. That was one of the restricing elements there. 
So quite a business developed in the way of shipping. 
Actually our predecessor company, the California Grape 
Products Company Ltd. in New York, had actually kept 
alive all during the Prohibition period by packaging 
concentrates for the consumer. 

Teiser: What sort of packaging was that? 

Bacci.: It was a Number 10 can, for the most part. We also 

put out five-gallon cans. But it was a sealed Number 
10 can, and the instructions told you to take this 
can of concentrate and add three cans of water. It 
just about reconstituted it to the original juice form, 
pretty much the same as your orange concentrates today. 
That s pretty much the form of it today. You know, 
you buy orange concentrate and you add three containers 
to the one container of concentrate. 

Teiser: Has the technology of making concentrate changed from 
that day to this? 

Bacci.: I wouldn t say to any great extent. I think the methods 

used are pretty much the same. There are some variations, 
however. There are some who have added a refinement 
in the way of retrieving the essences that first come 

Teiser: That s the same kind of add-back that they do with 
orange juice? 

Bacci.: That s right, that s right. That s done and while it s 
done to some extent here in California it s done 
principally with the Concord concentrate. That first 
essence that comes off, of course, is a very powerful 


Bacci.: part of the flavoring components of the juice itself. 

Teiser: So in that particular period it was even marketed in 

Baccl.: Yes, and the principal marketer was the California 

Grape Products Company Ltd. under a brand they called 
Caligrapo, meaning California Grape Products, you see. 
And it would be available in all types. As a matter 
of fact, I think some might even have been marketed 
as "Chateau d Yquem" or [laughter] any kind of a 
fanciful name at all. And the home wine user would 
then take a can of concentrate, put it in a crock, add 
three cans of water, bring it up to a warm room, and 
wait for it to ferment. And after that he had a wine. 

And some of the results obtained were Just 
absolutely phenomenal. I can give you one example of 
it, and this one I have mentioned any number of times. 
To me it illustrates the point. This man Profumo whom 
I mentioned earlier, who was the manager of the Cella 
Brothers-G. Cella & Brother, was a very straight-laced 
individual. Extremely honest, a very devout church 
goer, fearful of doing anything that might blemish his 
name, and while he had lent his supervision to this 
Colonial Grape Products Company operation, I can say 
it was never with any great amount of enthusiasm, you 
see, because he was always fearful that something 
would happen that would then reflect on him. With the 
number of regulations that you had to contend with, it 
wasn t unlikely at all that something could happen. 
How serious it would be to disclaim any knowledge of 
it or disclaim any responsibility for it or be able 
to prove that it was not a willful violation is a moot 
question. But he was always fearful. 

When this little operation went into the idea of 
handling concentrates, I remember making a little wine 
In a quart bottle. I put eight ounces of concentrate 
into this quart bottle and 2b ounces of water, just 
ordinary sink water, put a piece of cotton in the neck 
and just waited. We had a little safe in the office, 
a little old Hosier safe, those little black iron 
things and I set this bottle there to ferment. And 
sure enough in the course of time I found the bubbling 
had stopped and the wine began to clear and there was 
still enough gas in it to prevent it from turning sour. 
I took that and I decanted it into the usual type of 
sample bottle. The samples we gave out were called in 

Bacci.: those days "olive oil sample bottles," if I m not 

mistaken. It was a little four-once bottle, and it 
was the usual thing. We used no other bottle for 
giving samples to people. So I put a little bit of 
that in it one day and tasted it and I thought, "This 
tastes awfully good. Let me see if Mr. Profumo thinks 

So I went in to Mr. Profumo with a glass and I 
poured a little bit into this glass. I said, "Mr. 
Profumo, I d like to get your opinion of this." He 
went through the motions of smelling it and tasting it 
and he said, "That s good, very good wine, Harry." 
I said, "How old is it? How old would you say it is, 
Mr. Profumo?" He said, "Well, it s not old, it s not 
old. It s not young either." I said, "Well, how old 
would you say it is?" "Well, I d say anywhere between 
three and four years." And I looked at him and said, 
"Would it surprise you to know it s three weeks old?" 

Now all the results of course weren t that 
dramatic. There were people who would misuse the 
product. Their room temperatures were wrong. It 
would get too cold, the fermentation would get stuck 
all kinds of things would happen. But it apparently 
filled the gap for an awful lot of people for a long 
period of time. 

Now that was one type of operation, selling the 
concentrate itself. Another type of operation was 
that of taking the concentrate, reconstituting it in 
the keg, and shipping it to the home consumer. And 
that was sold at very fancy prices. Not the price 
that we realized; we received only a very nominal 
price. But these were generally sold to a distributor, 
who had some fanciful name "Sunshine Vineyards of 
California," some such thing as that and we would 
then make shipments in his name to his own customers. 
He would pay us the base price. 

Well, to give you an idea, the lowest price that 
I can remember for a five-gallon keg not what we 
received but what they sold it for a five-gallon keg 
of diluted concentrate, reconstituted grape juice a 
five-gallon keg would sell for about $15 delivered, 
$3 a gallon. There were no taxes, nothing in between. 

These kegs were equipped with what they called 
a fermentation bung. It was a little wooden bung, a 


Bacci.: little wooden stopper, and it was placed in the head. 
A hole would be drilled into the head of the keg, and 
this thing was inserted in it up to a point where a 
rubber band let me see if I can give you a description 
of it; you can t draw a picture in your interview 
it actually was a little cylindrical bung. Down from 
the top of it a little ridge had been cut around the 
circumference, over which ridge a rubber band was 
placed. Now through the length of the cylinder a hole 
was partially drilled, and this met holes that were 
around this little ridge. So when the product would 
ferment the gas would be given off and expand the 
rubber band, and as the gases subsided then of course 
the rubber band would form a closure, you see. And 
that was a very common thing. Ihe only trouble with 
it was this: that sometimes these little holes they 
were very small holes, might have been l/l6th of an 
inch in diameter some of these little holes would 
become plugged up with the grape juice, in which case 
if the room was good and warm the keg would explode. 

But there was a tremendous amount of business of 
that kind done, and that type of operation, that type 
of sale of reconstituted grape juice was for the most 
part done with the first families of the nation. And 
actually you 1 11 find that these distributors would go 
looking for doctors, dentists, lawyers, engineers, 
stock brokers that s the kind of people they sold 
this product to. And so far as the department was 
concerned, the Prohibition Department was concerned, 
so long as the end product was not intoxicating in 
fact, which is a rather difficult thing to prove, it 
was apparently all right. 

Where some of these fellows would get themselves 
into trouble would be when they would claim, for 
instance, in their enthusiasm to make a sale, they 
would tell the fellow how high he could get, for 
instance, if he waited for it to ferment out, you know. 
I know of one instance where the fellow making the sale 
made the sale to a Prohibition agent. The fellow 
making the sale was a few sheets to the wind when he 
made the sale, and when the agent asked him, "Will this 
develop a kick?" he said, "Well, look at me." [Laughter] 

Well, that was a great period. It was a great 
period certainly in the history of the wine industry of 
the country, and it was certainly a great period In the 


Bacci.: history of the country because I can t think of anything 
being more idiotic than that attempt at what was 
described by President Hoover as a "noble experiment. n 
It was Just unbelievable, the things that were done 
and the attempts that were made to protect the public 
from this horrible alcoholic beverage. It was just 
unbelievable. As I look back sometimes I still shake 
my head in disbelief. I can t get myself to believe 
that I lived through that kind of a period. I get the 
same feeling, for instance, Miss Teiser, when I watch 
TV and watch the things that have to do with the rise 
of Hitler and the atrocities that he committed, and I 
cannot get myself to believe that as an adult I lived 
through that period and didn t have the same sense of 
revulsion that I have now. But it s true. It was 
there, but I don t remember having sensed it at the 
time, you see. 


Teiser: At the time of Repeal, what happened? How did that 
change your occupational problems? 

Bacci.: Well, at the time of Repeal the first thing that 

happened was that the laws that were written in the 
various states were at complete variance with our 
idea as to how wines should be sold and distributed. 
To begin with, we had not experienced that kind of 
individual state control, and no two states having the 
same rules and regulations, and state monopolies and 
the restriction in many states, including the state of 
New York where we were situated, of not being able to 
sell to the consumer in anything larger than a 15-gallon 
container. That 15 gallons was written in there as a 
compromise with those who were advocating going 
entirely in bottles. They, of course, were aided and 
abetted by the control authorities themselves who felt 
that the free and easy distribution of wine to the 
consumer in bulk containers would make control much 
more difficult than it would be in a small container. 
And you had certain members of the industry who, for 
reasons of their own, felt that that was the way to 
go, too. So all of a sudden we found ourselves having 
to face an entirely new type of operation. 

We attempted on a small scale to do a little 
bottling for distribution principally to wholesalers. 


Baccl.: But our business continued to be that principally of 
distributing in bulk. In the state of New York you 
couldn t sell even a so-called wholesaler anything 
larger than a 15-gallon container. And of course that 
would make it impossible for him to bottle. No dealer 
would buy a 15-gallon container to bottle from. 

The sale of wine in 50-gallon containers was 
limited to winery licensees in the state of New York 
to which they, for some reason or other, had given the 
classification of "DW. " It was supposed to stand for 
"distillers of wine," mind you. They had no distilling 
operations at all. They had merely little places where 
most of them intended to bottle. Later, by some 
interpretation given to the law, they were not permitted 
to bottle. They were told that in order to bottle 
they had to produce. And that was a long fight I found 
myself involved in in 1935, when we finally succeeded 
in getting an Attorney General s ruling which still 
has the full force and effect of law in the state of 
New York, and in which he decided that the act of 
blending wines also constituted manufacture and that 
you didn t have to actually crush grapes. My argument 
at the time and I was in the forefront of it, and I 
had gone to the Attorney General. As a matter of fact 
I remember doing it against the wishes of a group with 
which I was associated. This was a group of representa 
tives of California wine producers who seemed to find 
it to their interest to restrict the number of people 
who could bottle. They felt that they wanted the 
bottling operation limited to themselves. So when I 
got that feeling from them, I told them, "Well, if 
we re not going to do it together, I m going to do it 
on my own. And I will tell you that I m going to do 
it, and I m going to do everything I can to get this 
ruling. " 

I then found it possible to become affiliated 
with an organization of wholesalers who had an interest 
in doing bottling, called the New York Institute of 
Wine and Spirits Distributors, I think it was called. 
And it was through them that we prepared a sort of a 
brief and circulated it amongst members of the industry 
and had them sign. And that became the opening wedge 
to obtain the ruling. And, incidentally, the ruling 
was over the "dead body" of the Commissioner of 
Alcoholic Beverage Control of New York State, who was 
a former police commissioner, and before that a police 
sergeant in his youth a man by the name of Edward P. 

Bacci.: Mulrooney, who was I believe the very first New York 
State Commissioner of Alcoholic Beverage Control. 

We contended in the brief that if I take the wines 
of producer B and I blend these two wines, that the 
resulting product is neither the product of manufacture 
of producer A, nor the product of manufacture of 
producer B, but it is my product at this point. Now 
then you ve started to play around with words. And 
by the time we got through they bought the whole thing, 
the whole package. And to this day, whatever bottling 
is done in the state of New York by other than wine 
producers, that is those who crush and ferment wine, 
is done as the result of that ruling. And I don t know 
how many times in the course of my being there when 
we were operating both a bottling plant and selling 
wine in bulk, and wines all came from California from 
our parent plant some inspector would come along and 
he d say, "Well, where are your crushing facilities?" 

And we d say, "Well, we don t crush here." "What 
do you mean you don t crush?" he would say. "You can t 
have a license then." And I d say, "Well, why not?" 
"Well, because you don t crush. You have to produce 
wine." I d ask, "Well, are you familiar with the 
Attorney General s ruling?" "No." And I always had 
it in a very handy place and out would come the ruling 
and I d show it to him and he d read it and say, "Well, 
why don t they tell us this?" "I don t know. Don t 
tell me; you d better go up and ask them." 

So it was one of those things that for some reason 
or other was always kept in a hidden drawer in the 
Alcoholic Beverage Control Department where even the 
members of the enforcement personnel were not given the 
opportunity of familiarizing themselves with it and 
would go out making asses of themselves making requests 
of people that were contrary to the law itself, by 
reason of the Attorney General s interpretation of it. 

Teiser: Did this have implications with regard to the sale of 
California wines in New York particularly then? 

Bacci.: Oh, yes! Oh, yes, because California wines were the 

ones that were basically affected by it, you see. And 
mind you, in that period the distribution of California 
wines in bottles was not as widespread as it is today. 
Now this ruling took place in 1935- Now you take the 
great Gallo organization. They didn t go the bottle 
route until about 19^-1 six years later. Up to that 


Bacci.: time we were engaged in the sale of wines in bulk, and 
to whom? To the very people who would then bottle it 
themselves if they were permitted to bottle it, you see. 
Had they been stopped from bottling it, there wouldn t 
have been anything to take its place at the time. The 
industry since then, of course, has developed to the 
point where most of the major organizations market 
almost entirely in bottle rather than in bulk. 

Teiser: How did your organization happen to stay all these 
years in bulk for the most part? 

Bacci.: Well, I suppose because of the type of bulk operation 
we conducted over the years. To begin with, we had 
the good fortune of affiliating ourselves with some 
of the top wine houses in the country, with people who 
appreciated quality and with people who appreciated 
reliability and dependability. When the great shortage 
came along in 1944 and 19^5 [they] found that 
California Grape Products continued to supply its 
customers when others found it more convenient to take 
whatever they had in the way of inventory and put it 
in bottles. And of course other competitors have 
developed since of a different kind. 

But I think the answer to your question, Miss 
Teiser, would be: actually I think it s due in large 
part to the type of trade that we established for 
ourselves. When I tell you that we have on our books 
today people whom we ve been serving for 33 years, 
people whom we ve been serving for 20 and 25 years. 
And with some of those, we represent their sole source 
of California wine supply. Now there must be some 
reason for it. Perhaps the answer to the question 
might better be given by the customer rather than by 
me. [Laughter] 

Teiser: Does a large percentage of your wine go East now? 

Bacci.: Yes. 

Teiser: To be bottled, in the East? 

Bacci.: It s either bottled or blended. It s used to blend 
the wines produced in other areas, to get a flavor 
reaction that meets the needs of their trade. 



Baccl.: The bulk end has not always been the most profitable 

end of the wine business. At times it s been a rather 
difficult one, because you have in bulk wine a 
peculiar sort of commodity in that it fluctuates 
wildly in sales value. I guess the best way to 
illustrate it is 19^6. In 1946, at vintage time in 
the fall, wines were being sold at $1.40 a gallon. By 
June of 1947 those same wines were being sold at 40 cents 
a gallon six months later. 

Now the man who had developed brand identity didn t 
suffer that change to quite the same extent as did the 
man who was supplying wines in bulk, you see. We went 
over this 1946 period when, due to the restrictions 
placed upon the use of anything that might be used in 
foodstuffs for the manufacture of alcohol, grapes were 
bid to fantastically high prices. In February of 4? 
I went out on what I ve always looked upon as one of 
my first speaking engagements in behalf of the industry. 
I was asked if I would go to New Orleans where the Wines 
and Spirits Wholesalers of America were meeting. And 
I went there to make a pitch for wines as part of a 
panel. And there I met some of our customers, and there 
I met one who tried to grab me by the lapel. Up to 
that time people grabbed me by the lapel to make 
certain they would get some supply from me, but I ran 
into an entirely new set of conditions here. 

I was still at the convention when one came over 
to me and said, "Did you hear that so-and-so is offering 
wines at $1.25?" From $1.40 to $1.25. Now bulk wine 
doesn t permit that kind of a margin. There s no room 
in there for it. I said, "No, I haven t. It can t be." 
Well, before I left New Orleans I found the price was 
$1.15 this was after three days, mind you. I went 
from there to Chicago, and in Chicago I was told that 
the price had dropped to $1. This in Just a matter of 
days $1. And I then went off to Buffalo, I remember, 
and there I found that the price was 75 cents. And by 
the time June 30th, 19*4-7, came around, we found it 
necessary to mark down our tremendous inventory to what 
was then the going price, and I don t think we had the 
courage to go all the way because of the effect it 
would have on our statement. But as I recall it went 
down to somewhere around 50 cents. This was Just in a 
matter of a very, very short period of time. 


Bacci.: All of this was due largely to an oversupply 

having been created at fantastically high grape prices, 
due to errors in Judgement that were made as to what 
the demand for this product would be on the market. 
And that was the history of 19^7. It was Just a 
disastrous year for anybody who had any inventory of 
wines at all. And the unfortunate part of it is that 
the errors in Judgement that dragged the rest of us along 
with them were made in pretty high places. They were 
not made by little nobodies. These were people who 
had almost unlimited resources, unlimited money to 
make purchases with, and they Just bid the price of 
grapes up to a point where, I remember I had stopped 
buying at $100 a ton. I said, "We ve got enough now 
at $100 a ton. We re not going to gamble any more 
than that." And that then went, as I remember it, to 
as high as $125 a ton. And, mind you, at $125 a ton 
what they were buying were the lowliest type of grapes 
that might have been suitable only for distilling 
material, and yet they were bidding them up to &125 a 

Teiser: So then it was the growers... 

Bacci . : Well , no , not the growers . Actually it was the 

purchaser of the growers grapes, because the grower 
had gotten his $125 and he went home to sleep. The 
fellow who bought it from him then had to sweat it out 
for Just as long as he had any of that inventory on 
hand, you see. 

Teiser: So it was the buyer s decision that made it go so 

Bacci.: That s right. 

Teiser: And the growers got what they could. 

Bacci.: That s right. 

Teiser: Was this the Rosenstiel maneuver? Others have discussed 

Bacci.: Yes. 

Teiser: The whole problem of price stabilization in the 
industry has been... 

Bacci.: It s been a very difficult one, because of the diversified 
nature of the industry. You see, you have engaged in 


Baccl.: the wine Industry people who own vineyards, who grow 
their own grapes; people who don t grow any grapes; 
people who grow part of their grapes. You have 
cooperatives in it, where the cooperative itself, of 
course, doesn t grow any grapes but its members do. 
So you have this complex kind of a situation, and the 
development of any kind of a stabilization plan, it s 
been proved over the years (and I ve been involved in 
many of them) , will last just as long as the immediate 
emergency seems to have been settled, and at that 
point they want to revert to this great theory and 
philosophy of rugged Individualism. And then get 
themselves into another mess and then go looking for 
another program to dig them out of the hole again. 

And that program will last again for Just so 
long as people begin to feel Just a little bit more 
comfortable; then at that point you find that again 
they want to revert to the old, and they begin 
bickering over the extent to which one member of the 
industry may be benefitted to a greater extent than 
another by this particular program. And human nature 
comes into play. And that s been the history of it 
right from the very beginning. 

That grape crush program that we established, I 
think it was 1961 or 62, somewhere in there... 

Teiser: That was called the set-aside program? 

Bacci. : That was the set-aside program. That program came into 
being largely as the result of tremendous wine 
Inventories and fear that these wine inventories would 
Just crush everybody and that unless they were disposed 
of in some orderly way, that unless some limitations 
were placed upon these inventories, everybody would go 
down the drain with everyone else. And that program 
came into being in 1961, and while there was a certain 
amount of opposition to it, it came into being with a 
feeling that it was going to work. And it did work. 
It did work, at least to the extent these inventories 
actually increased in value and everybody holding 
Inventory benefited from them. The growers themselves 
benefited to the extent that their grapes, in the 
subsequent season, were sold at a much more favorable 
price than they otherwise would have been. 

But then people began to think in terms of what 
the cost of the program was. It was $12 a ton they 
were paying for the processing of the set-aside, and 


Bacci. : the grower was supposed to pay that. He looked upon 
that as being an Imposition, and I kept trying to 
tell them, "This $12 a tone is the insurance premium 
you are paying to make certain that you get $KJ per 
ton net. And without the payment of some kind of an 
insurance you re not going to be able to get the $*K) 
a ton." Well, sure enough, they allowed the program 
to die and no sooner dead than bingo I they went right 
back to where they were before. 

And, as a matter of fact, we found that people 
who had supported the program when it first came into 
being felt unduly restricted. And they became opponents 
at that point. The campaign for the renewal of that 
marketing order became a very bitter one, and it wound 
up in the program not receiving the necessary number of 
assents, and died. 

Telser: Vfhat year did it die in? 

Bacci.: I think it died in 1963. And as I remember the 63 

season, it was the very kind of a year that the program 
would have helped an awful lot of people who suffered 
a lot of hardship. Now no one looks upon any kind of 
regimentation, under any kind of a program or under any 
kind of control or restriction, with any great amount 
of enthusiasm. But when it becomes the choice, as 
seems so apparent so frequently when it becomes the 
choice between not being regimented and starving, and 
being regimented and eking out an existence, I don t 
have too much difficulty in coming to a conclusion 
as to which direction I should go as a businessman. 
But some people look upon these things differently. 

Teiser: Haven t there been other similar programs? 

Bacoi.: The cling peach growers, of course, are in a program, 

and the pear growers. They ve had successful programs. 
The Raisin Bargaining Association came into being to 
provide a means for raisin growers to bargain with the 
processors for the price of their commodity. It has 
had two successful years, and there is under discussion 
at the present time, in Just its most initial stages, 
a program for growers of the grapes that go to the 
wineries to give some thought to the formation of a 
bargaining association, rather than to leave each 
grower to his own mercy and his own ability to negotiate 
a favorable deal with a purchaser of grapes. And it is 
coming. I feel confident that it s coming. 

Bacci.: Now how long lasting it will be is a question that 
I always have in the back of my mind, and it has to do 
with almost any program, based upon past experience. 
Oh, there were some other programs. There was one 
called a grape stabilization marketing order; I don t 
remember the name of that one. That was one that 
didn t provide set-aside but you were practically given 
quotas as to how much of your inventory you could sell. 
That had a successful year or two, and under that we 
were paying assessments. They were not spent; they 
were supposed to go into a stabilization fund of some 
kind that would then be used for the purchase of 
surpluses. They went into the fund, under the custody 
of the state. But when that fund began to build up 
to sizable proportions, the very people who contributed 
toward the fund thought they could make better use of 
the money, so they discontinued the program in order 
that they could receive refunds of the contributions 
they had made. 

Teiser: When was that? 50 s? 

Bacci.: That was in the 50 s someplace. 


Baoci.: Then most recently, another program, a State Marketing 
Order program. This is the one that was known as the 
"Grape Products Marketing Order. 11 That was one under 
which a prima facie cost was established under the 
program, as a result of a survey made by the state, 
and you were not permitted to sell your bulk wines for 
less than that price. Well, of course, it wasn t long 
before you began to find that those who were buying 
had no enthusiasm for a program that caused them to 
purchase their wines at a higher price. So they became 
vigorous opponents. And then you had the usual 
Jealousies and suspicions amongst industry members. 
If they weren t doing too much business, they were 
certain that somebody else was stealing all of the 
business at a price less than the prima facie price 
that had been fixed. 

Then we had a change in politics in the state. 
The program had come into being under one Director of 
Agriculture, and he was succeeded by another of the 


Bacci.: opposing political faith whose own basic convictions 
were opposed apparently to these kinds of programs 
and he never showed too great enthusiasm for it. And 
the next thing you know the National Association of 
Wine Bottlers, who were the principal buyers of wines 
outside of the state not in the state they contested 
the order. In fact it went to the Court of Appeals. 
Anyway between one argument and the other, last April 
when it came up for assent it failed to receive the 
necessary amount of assents, by a very, very small 
percentage, but it was enough to defeat the order. 
And so we re back to each of us doing business 
individually, perfectly free to sell at a low price 
if we want to, so long as we don t do it "for the 
purpose of injuring a competitor. M Now how are you 
going to sell below cost without that being your 
purpose? [Laughter] That s your story of these 
marketing orders. 

Teiser: It s surprising the industry survived. 

Bacci. : Yes, right. Well, you see, an industry that finds 

itself in difficulties any industry, I assume, perhaps 
it is more true of agricultural Industries where they 
feel they have greater liberties under the federal law 
to engage in certain types of cooperative activities 
it s perfectly natural for them, in moments of distress, 
to reach out and seek out some kind of help somewhere 
along the line, and it s always some kind of an 
authority that you have to look to, whether it be 
state or federal, because these programs, if they were 
left entirely on a voluntary basis, would fail 

A program that we have today, take the Wine 
Advisory Board program as an example. If people were 
to contribute voluntarily to a fund to accomplish all 
the things the Wine Advisory Board has accomplished, 
that program would have died years ago, because it gets 
to the point where people resent being singled out to 
make contributions when the guy next door isn t holding 
up his share. That s one of the reasons why this program 
in this country, and in California, has been so eminently 
successful, whereas similar programs, patterned somewhat 
after that in England, for instance, have either failed 
or are in the process of failing, because of having 
been on a voluntary basis. 


(Interview with Harry Baccigaluppi , San Francisco, 
February 27, 1969) 

Bacci.: In April of 196l, the National Association of Wine 
Bottlers held its convention in San Francisco. 
Although not a member, I had arranged to attend the 
luncheon on the first day of that meeting. 

Arriving early, their business session was still 
in progress and I heard their President Mr. Al Furman 
of Richmond, Virginia, tell his members that he, too, 
had heard the rumors with respect to there being under 
discussion a Federal Marketing Order. 

He added that the National Association of Wine 
Bottlers had not been consulted but he had been assured 
that the wine bottlers would not be affected by the 

At the luncheon which followed I was asked to say 
a few words. Having long enjoyed the patronage and 
friendship of many members of this group, I felt that 
I owed it to them to present the picture exactly as I 
saw it. 

After greeting and bidding them welcome, I 
remember having said something to them substantially 
as follows: 

"This morning I heard your president report to you 
that the rumors of a new Marketing Order being under 
discussion are true. He went on to tell you that he 
was uninformed as to the details of what such an order 
might contain, but that he had been given assurances 
that wine bottlers would not be affected by it. 

"Having no knowledge whatsoever of what has been 
under discussion, I cannot say to you that in my 
opinion you will or will not be affected by it. All 
that I can assure you of is that Marketing Orders come 
into being only when those who are directly involved 
are dissatisfied with conditions as they are and with 
the returns they are receiving. Stated differently, 
this means that there is no point in going through the 
agonizing efforts of developing a Marketing Order unless 
it gives assurances of bringing better returns and that 
means higher prices. 


Bacci.: "While I have the opportunity, I want to tell you 
how vulnerable I believe you to be as individuals and 
as an organized group. You are vulnerable first 
because the prices at which you have been buying are 
leaving you little or no room for profit and; secondly, 
you are vulnerable in that the price at which you are 
buying brings no profit to the man who is selling it 
to you, so that your source is also vulnerable. For 
the life of me I don t know how anybody can be any more 
vulnerable under this double set of conditions." 

They all sat there sort of stunned from having 
somebody give it to them so straight from the shoulder. 

When the luncheon was over, one of the group came 
over to me and he said, "You ve joined the other group." 

I said, "What group, Tony?" "Well, the other 
group the other group." 

I said, "Well, there is no other group, Tony. We 
are all in this pool together and it s either sink or 
swim. All I was trying to do was to call your attention 
to a condition which if you had not realized it before, 
you had better realize soon. You re buying a commodity 
at less than the fellow who is selling it to you can 
afford to sell it to you for and you, in turn, are 
selling it to your trade for a price that you can t 
afford to sell it at." 

In August of that year 196l the Grape Crush 
Marketing Order became a reality. Almost overnight 
all dessert wines which had been selling at ^7-1/2 cents 
and below went to 75 cents. 

Mr. A. Setrakian was made chairman of the governing 
groups under that order and I served as vice-chairman 
throughout its life. 

In July, 1963, another referendum was held under 
the Order and after a very bitter fight failed to 
obtain the necessary number of assents. It officially 
terminated on June 30 

I don t think I made any friends at all on that 
day of the Wine Bottlers Convention. Yet if the same 
group were to meet under the same set of circumstances 
and I felt inclined to be as honest with them now as I 
did then, I wouldn t have anything else to say to them 
than that. And it s true, it s true. There s no 

Loading grapes into gondolas at the Italian Vineyard Company, Guasti, in the 1930 s. 
Photograph courtesy of Harry BacciRaluppi . 


Bacci.: question about it. 

And that s one of the things that you have to 
contend with on all these marketing orders or 
Stabilization orders of any kind. There s only one 
basic objective, regardless of the route that is taken 
to reach that objective. And the one objective is that 
of increasing the returns. They begin to discuss 
marketing orders only when conditions become distressed. 
They never do at times when they re prospering. What 
they re trying to do is get themselves out of a hole. 
And when that happens somebody has to be affected in 
the way of paying higher prices, and that s the thing 
that you re caught with all the time because the fellow 
who has to pay higher prices raises objections to 
paying any higher prices than he would have to pay in 
a freer economy without giving any thought to the fact 
that the fellow who is being forced to sell at less 
than profitable prices, his day on earth is limited. 
He is not going to be around for long, because he just 
can t afford to continue engaging in a business where 
there are no profit possibilities where he s constantly 


Telser: You came to California in 

Bacci.: 19^3 yes. 

Teiser: What was the immediate cause? 

Bacci.: Well, the reason for it was this. Mr. Lanza had 

negotiated for the acquisition of the Italian Vineyard 
Company. In fact he called me and asked me to come 
out in the month of July and take a ride out to Guasti 
with him. I met him in LQS Angeles. I really thought 
that I was going out there to make an inspection of 
these properties, only to find after I got out there 
that I was brought into the office and introduced, and 
sat there. The first thing you know Mr. Lanza 
disappeared, and I assumed that he would be coming 
back later and I would have an opportunity to pass 
Judgement on this acquisition, only to have him come 
back and say, "Harry, all right, ready, let s go." 
And I said, "Where are we going?" He said, "Oh, back 


Bacci.: to Los Angeles. We re all through here." And I 

thought, why did I come out here in the first place? 
And I remember asking permission to at least take a 
look at this fabulous executive residence I had heard 
about, you see, and took a running tour through it and 
even got lost in the operation. And then came out and 
we went back to Los Angeles. 

That was in the month of July, it seems to me. 
But by that time his negotiations had progressed and 
had been completed and later I came out temporarily, 
I think it was about the first of November in ^3. 
We were then to take possession. And I was made the 
vice-president and the general manager of the operation. 

Teiser: Did Mr. Lanza often work ahead of giving out information 
on what he was doing? 

Bacci.: I don t know that he would be working ahead, but he 
always had such a fertile mind and such a dynamic 
personality that you found that you were being consulted 
but you weren t ever too sure that you were being 
listened to, you see. But at least you had the benefit 
of having been consulted. 

But there was no consultation, I can assure you, 
as to whether he should or should not acquire this 

Teiser: He Just brought you out to look at it? 

Bacci.: To look at it, right. And then I later became the 

vice-president and the general manager of it, and we 
took off at that point. And I can say honestly that I 
look upon my brief period there as perhaps one of the 
most challenging periods in my entire career in this 
industry, and one of the most gratifying and satisfying. 
And I have never felt, in all modesty, that it was due 
to any special talent of mine other than to recognize 
that things were wrong and ought to be corrected. As 
we stepped into that thing we found that actually you 
couldn t possibly have found a business that had 
operated in a more disorganized fashion. 

We found that employee relations were Just about 
at the lowest point possible. Customer relations weren t 
too bad, because actually you were in the position of 
being the supplier of a commodity that was in short 
supply, so customers were all very nice. But community 


Bacci.: relations were horrible, stockholder relations were 

unsatisfactory, and it was just a mess that s the best 
way you could describe it. 

And in a short time, just by being a human being, 
by reacting or thinking of people reacting to certain 
sets of facts in the same way you would react yourself, 
changes were brought about. And, as I say, it was the 
most gratifying thing to see this thing in a period of 
a very, very few months just make a complete flopover 
and to the point where actually we were the most highly 
regarded people in the community. Our relations in 
the community couldn t have been better. The relations 
with our employees were just magnificent. In fact. the 
people in the community just looked at this operation 
almost with awe, wondering what could have happened so 
fast. But, as I say, when you start with a situation 
so bad, you don t have to be a genius to change it. 

I remember the first stockholders meeting, which 
of course included a lot of the old stockholders of 
the old Italian Vineyard Company, you see. I remember 
those annual stockholder meetings were always made an 
occasion for quite a celebration in the past, and we 
continued that tradition, which included having a big 
lunch at the executive residence where they had 
unlimited facilities. You could seat, in that dining 
room, 75 or 80 people, it seems to me, at a great big 
table . 

Teiseri Did you live in that residence while you were there? 

Bacci.: I lived there for a short period of time, for a very 

short period of time, and then rented a home in Upland. 

I remember that first stockholders meeting. I 
remember I was to present the annual report. And I 
remember saying to them that I wanted to assure them 
in the presentation of this report that I accepted no 
particular credit for it because under the existing 
marketing conditions any donkey could have done equally 
as well. They were all amused at that, but to the 
old stockholders this was a completely different kind 
of an operation. They were getting dividends in amounts 
that were just unheard of before. Our employees... 

Teiser: How many stockholders had you then? 

Bacci.: I forget exactly how many stockholders we had. 


Teiser: Were there closer to 100 or 20? 

Bacci.: I d say there were closer to 20 than 100. But, you see, 
these old stockholders were all people who were amongst 
the original stockholders of the company, who had been 
actually partners with Secondo Guasti in the development 
of this company but had never reaped the benefits. 
They had something there that they pointed to with 
pride, but they had never reaped any financial benefits 
from it until we came into the picture , and then money 
really started to flow, because we had an entirely 
different concept of how to run this operation. 

I remember, this one has to do with employee 
relations that actually shook me emotionally. Now, 
let s see. We came in there in late ^3. In 1(4, at 
Christmas time, I was just wondering: now what can we 
do to show our employees our appreciation for what 
they ve done? I found that there were limitations 
imposed by the federal government. You see, at that 
time there were wage freezes. There were even freezes 
on any Christmas gifts that you might give, unless you 
had traditionally given them. And there was no record 
of ever having given any Christmas gifts. But they did 
have one exception. 

They said if you didn t have a record of making 
gifts, you could give a maximum of $25 > and that didn t 
seem to set right with me, until I hit upon the idea 
that I was going to give every employee who had been 
in the service of the company for at least one year a 
$25 war bond, feeling first that it would give them 
something they never had before, it would give them a 
stake in an effort that was a national effort that 
perhaps might encourage them to buy more bonds on their 
own. But in addition to that I thought rather than 
giving them cash I was giving them something that for 
just so long as they held it preserved our company s 
Identity. They would remember where it came from. 

So Christmas eve came, and I remember that among 
other things I wanted to do was to have a celebration. 
We were going to have a Christmas party, so to speak. 
And I had called in the vineyard superintendent, what 
was his name oh, Fred Signorio who was a picture-book 
image of what a vineyard superintendent should look 
like: tall, handsome, had been around there, practially 
born on that vineyard, his father had been one of the 
original stockholders there. I talked to Fred and said, 


Bacci.: "Fred, this is what I m thinking. We want to give a 

Christmas party here , and I want everybody to attend. " 
He said, "Oh, we can t do that. We can t handle that." 
I said, "Well, why not?" He said, "Because the whites 
and the Mexicans Just don t get along." I said, "Why 
not?" I couldn t understand this. I couldn t under 
stand why people of different ethnic groups couldn t 
get along, to the point at least where you couldn t 
have a big luncheon or a big party for them. 

He said, "Well, they get drunk." I said, "Who?" 
He said, "The Mexicans." I said, "Don t the whites?" 
He said, "Not quite as fast." I said, "Look, Fred. 
If that s the only question, if that s the only reason, 
we re going to have a party. And you are going to run 
it. We re going to pay all the expenses connected 
with it. You arrange it, you set it up, and it s going 
to be you and Pat Goodrich," another man who was the 
assistant winery superintendent. We had almost 5000 
acres of vineyard there. It was known as the world s 
largest vineyard. 

Teiser: Was Signorio Mexican? 

Bacci. : He was of Italian background. 

So we hold this party. And I put Fred and this 
other man in a position where I said. to them, "Look, 
this party will last for Just as long as you say it 
should. Remember, the responsibility for it is yours." 
We started about one o clock or 12 o clock, I forget 
what it was, but to me the whole thing was emotionally 
disturbing to the point where when the thing was all 
over I went home and went to bed and stayed in bed all 
Christmas day. It was a combination of Joy and tension, 
because the thing had worked out so well. 

First the men came in from the field. These 
Mexicans came in from the field with their long pruning 
shears stuck in their pockets or their little holder 
they had here. They sat on one side of the room, and 
the whites were on the other side of the room. So 
again, you see, we were not accomplishing what we wanted. 

The women had gone all out in preparing for the 
party. We even had a bakery on the premises that had 
been established there many years before by the founders 
of the Italian Vineyard Company. This was a sort of a 
self-contained little community there. And they 
barbecued a steer in this little bakery, and the women 


Bacci.: had prepared salads and all kinds of things, and we 
had wine in just unlimited quantities. They just 
went to a table and helped themselves. 

Well, the thing just wasn t jelling in the way 
that I wanted it to jell, and then I thought, well, 
let s get them singing. I ve always been a great 
believer in song, in community song as an element for 
bringing people together. And my theory has always 
been that at least for the period they re singing they 
have to be together. They have to be together. They 
may not think alike, they may not live alike, they may 
not completely like each other. But if they re going 
to sing together, during the time it takes to do this 
singing they re going to feel as one. So there was a 
young lady there who had a good voice, and I asked her 
if there was anybody in the Mexican colony who could 
sing well, and she said yes. Well, I had the white 
girl, who also spoke Mexican, had her sing "Silent 
Night, Holy Night" in Mexican. And the Mexican girl, 
I had her sing "Silent Night, Holy Night" in English. 
And that started the thing going. 

And then we also had some of the government gaugers 
there, and I found that they were sort of humming along. 
They were in constant attendance at this plant, of 
course. I found that they were sort of humming along 
while this singing was going on, and so I had them form 
a quartet, and they started singing. Well, this thing 
just blossomed. This thing just blossomed! 

And I just watched the operation, greeted every 
body. Well, I don t know how long we went. It must 
have been until around four o clock when Fred came over 
to me and said, "I think this is it." He said, "How 
are you going to stop it?" I said, "Leave it to me. 
I ll stop it." It couldn t have been two minutes 
later when Pat Goodrich came over to me and said, "This 
is it, I think. I think we ve gone far enough." They 
had begun to see signs of some people getting just a 
little bit boisterous and feared it might lead to 
trouble, based upon their past experience. 

So with that, Miss Teiser, I had taken a waste- 
basket that s all I had a wastebasket and there was 
a piece of Christinas paper around there, and I put this 
Christinas paper over the top of this wastebasket. In 
the wastebasket I put all the war bonds, made out to 
each of them individually, and had a ribbon tied 
around it and just stood on one of the benches. And we 

Bacci.: had some music there too. I asked them to play some 
kind of a fanfare, and I got up onto the bench and 
greeted them and told them how happy I was to have 
them all here today and we didn t want to be selfish, 
we knew that this was a day of great festivity in 
their individual homes, we knew they wanted to get 
home to their families, and we were going to let them 
go. But not until we ve had a chance to present 
something to them that Santa Glaus had Just delivered 
this morning. 

So I punched a hole in this paper and started 
calling out names. And that was the emotional part of 
it, because here were men, especially amongst the 
Mexicans, who had never been anything but a number on 
the payroll there, and found themselves being called 
by name by the boss. They d come up and I d present 
the bond and shake hands with them. You don t have 
any idea what that did for that colony. You have no 
idea what it meant to that colony. It just took that 
Mexican colony, that was just a segregated group, and 
I remember walking down the street after that and 
somebody irould come up to me and say, "Mr. Boss, Signer 
Boss, my name Bamiro. Remember? My name Hamiro." 
They felt as though they were part of the community. 

The end result of it was it was a period when 
there was a great amount of proselyting, I suppose 
that s what they call it, where farmers were stealing 
each other s employees by offering them a higher rate 
of pay we suffered none at all. We had Just about the 
most loyal group that you could possibly have any place. 

And I ve always felt that it must have been one 
of the things that contributed greatly to the interest 
developed by Garrett in acquiring this facility. It 
was a matter of fact that, after they decided to 
acquire it, they too began to sense a sort of cleavage 
developing in their personnel; they found, for instance, 
that the people who had been in the employ of Garrett 
and in the employ of the Italian Vineyard Company just 
didn t see eye to eye, because when these negotiations 
were going on stories started to circulate that the 
Garretts don t like Mexicans and the Garretts don t 
like Italians. I forget the details. 

And I remember they decided to give a dinner one 
night after they had acquired it, a dinner for all of 
their employees. And they selected as the site for 
this dinner a little inn on the property of the Italian 


Bacci.: Vineyard Company. It was called the Guasti Inn. It 
was run by a lady, a Mrs. Pertusati and her daughter, 
and it was very well known in that area. It had been 
there for years, and they served very good food. 

Anyway these tables were set up, you know in a 
U shape, and everybody from both companies had been 
invited. The management personnel of Garrett were up 
at the head table. I elected to sit with the hoi poloi. 
Mr. Hoy Weller, whose name you ve gotten in Mr. Lanza s 
interview, came down and said, "Harry, we want you to 
sit with us up here." I said, "No, Roy, it won t 
accomplish the purpose that you want, that you have in 
mind. Let me sit here." These people had lined up 
at the table with all of the Italian Vineyard group 
on one side and all of the Garrett group on the other 
side. It was just the complete opposite of what they 
had hoped to accomplish. 

Well, we get down to just about the dessert part 
of it and of course wine is flowing very freely. Mr. 
Weller comes down again and says, "Harry, this thing 
is falling flat on its face. Can you do anything to 
pull it together?" I said I d try. So I asked him, 
I said, "When you get back there, have whoever was 
acting chairman or whatnot, tell him that you d like 
to call on me, the former manager of the Italian 
Vineyard Company, to say a few words." 

So I got up to the front, expressed a few words 
of greeting, told them how glad I was to have been 
included in the group, and said, "But I m not here to 
make any speeches. You ve heard me talk before. But 
I have a purpose in coming up here," I said. "What the 
Garrett people don t know is that we have some wonderful 
voices around here." I said, "Now you" I called a 
Garrett man, in fact it was the superintendent of the 
vineyards of Garrett, and I called the superintendent 
of the vineyards of the Italian Vineyard Company, and 
I think we got either four or five of them up there, 
and I started them singing. 

And again, the thing Just exploded. The problem 
they had after that was getting the people to go home. 
And that was the turning point there in their relations 
with their employees. As I say, Just the application 
of just a few techniques, just as one human being would, 
well, a human being who feels that every other human 
being is his friend and you treat him as a friend. If 
Mr. Weller were still alive, I m sure he d corroborate 


Bacci.: every word of it, because he was just at his wits end. 
He just didn t know what to do, because they didn t 
know what kind of a situation they were stepping into, 
because you must remember that with a freeze on labor, 
and he was taking over a 5000 acre vineyard, having 
good employee relations was all important. I have 
reason to believe that they took off from that point. 
I have reason to believe that their relations with 
their employees after that were inspired by just that 
little bit of a start. I have no recollection of ever 
hearing of any trouble that they had after that. Even 
to the point I heard later that when the daughter of 
the Italian Vineyards superintendent, who was still in 
their employ, was married, they turned over the big 
executive residence to them for their reception. And 
there was again, you see, that same feeling of bringing 
everybody together. 

As I say to you, the night of that Christmas party 
I Just went home just completely shot. It wasn t a 
matter of displeasure at all, just the tensions that 
surrounded this new experiment here, after having been 
discouraged by everybody from even trying it because 
it had been tried before and didn t work, and analyzing 
why it may not have worked, and finally it was just a 
question of keeping a close eye on the operation and 
making sure that you stop it before anything gets out 
of hand. And we ve followed that same technique since. 

We used to hold vineyard celebrations after that 
at the California Grape Products in Delano up to some 
years ago, where we invited everybody in the community. 
I think the last time we held it we had 600 people 
there at Delano. And this was whites and Mexicans 
together. Yes, I remember the last party we had, we 
had about 600 of them. The thing began to get out of 
hand after awhile, because we would invite not only 
our employees but all of their relations, and their 
kids would come and they d find some long-lost relations 
who lived 140 miles away and they came too for the free 
food and free wine. And I remember that at this last 
one we had I had been the toastmaster at all of these 
things and I remember the last one in particular. 
Somewhere or other I think I had seen a theater marquee. 
There was a Walt Disney picture playing yes, I remember 
it: "Saludos Amigos." I remember seeing that someplace, 
and it rang a bell with me. And the way we opened up 
this speaking part of this program it was very brief, 
just a few words from me and a few words from Mr. Lanza. 


Bacci.: But I opened, it up by getting the crowd to cooperate 
with me, and I said, "Now let s all get better 
acquainted. I m going to shout here over the microphone, 
Saludos Amigos 1 , and I want all of you to respond, Hi, 
neighbor! And then I m going to say, Hi, neighbor! 
and you re going to respond, Saludos Amigos." 1 And 
the whole thing just caught fire! 

I remember a reporter from the Fresno Bee coming 
over when the thing was over, coming over to say, "I 
want you to know I have lived in this valley all of 
my life. I have never seen this kind of a public 
relations effort tried and be so successful. " It was 
just a question of getting people to feel they re a 
part of the deal. 

And I remember that after dancing started, Mrs. 
Lanza, God bless her memory, was a very prim lady-like 
person, very proper, and the Mexicans thought nothing of 
coining up to her at this party and asking her to dance. 

Teiser: How long were you at Italian Vineyard Company there? 

Baccl.: As I say, I came there Just on a trip from New York on 
the first of November, 19^3. On the first of December 
I came back and had moved there by that time with my 
wife and children. We sold the plant, I think it was 
in April, 19^5* The managing heads of the Italian 
Vineyard Company tried to induce me to stay and continue 
in the operation, but I told them I couldn t do it, 
that my loyalties were with Mr. Lanza, my relationships 
were very close. I didn t mean anything personal with 
them; I m sure it would be equally as close. But I 
said I couldn t leave an old friend for a new one. And 
then they asked me, would I please stay on, at least 
until they became more oriented themselves. And I 
remember staying on until the middle of August of 
when I came up here. 

*It was reported in an article, "I.V. C. to Garrett s," 
Wine Review. April, 19*4-5, P. 50. 



Bacci.: I came up here, and up here I was already vice-president 
of California Grape Products Company, Ltd. , and 
continued in that capacity here. 

Teiser: And it was after that time you immediately became involved 
in Wine Institute affairs? 

Bacci.: I became involved in Wine Institute affairs actually 

Just about then, or shortly after then. Early 19^4-6, I 
would say. It was Just about then. 

Teiser: You must have given a good deal of time to it. 

Bacci.: Oh, yes. Not so much in the period before 19^8, because 
actually between 4-6 and 48 I dare say I gave as much 
time to it as other members who sat on the same 
committees as I did myself. And in 19^8, Mr. Herman 
Wente, who was then president, was actually the one who 
urged me to accept the presidency. And he sold the idea 
to everyone else there. And I took it on. I held it 
from 1948 to 1950, and I was responsible then for 
establishing the rule that has become the rule ever 
since. They wanted me to continue, and I felt it was 
too time-consuming. I had given it everything I had 
during the period I was president. And I also had the 
feeling that it was a job that ought to be rotated. 

Obviously, the president was given a certain amount 
of prominence and publicity. I never took it seriously; 
you always had to have a figurehead. You couldn t say, 
"The Wine Institute said this. 1 * You f d say, "Harry 
Baccigaluppi, president of the Wine Institute, said 
this." I had a feeling that perhaps that could develop 
some jealousies in our highly competitive industry. 
And I declined the urgings that I continue. I said I 
felt very strongly that no man should be placed in that 
position for any more than two years, that others should 
be given an opportunity to make contributions. 

So I had it for two years. Following me, General 
[John E. ] Deane had it for two years. Following him, 
Lou [Louis] Petri had it for two years, and at that 
point in the Wine Institute, again, competitive 
Jealousies became intensified. I had the good fortune 
of always being in sort of a neutral position. Our own 
operations were such that I never found it necessary to 
step on anyone s toes in particular, but just as soon 


Bacci.: as you had a figure occupying the position of president 
who was engaged in the marketing of wines in bottles 
and whatnot, then competitive influences came into 
play. Well, due to one thing and the other, plus some 
personnel problems at Wine Institute, at that point 
they decided they would reorganize. As a matter of 
fact they had some wholesale resignations at the time 
of some large companies that they wanted to bring back. 
And it was felt the thing to do was to reorganize. 

Teiser: Was that the period the California Wine Association 

Bacci.: It was in that period, yes. That was one of them, and 
they gave a lot of publicity to the fact that they 
were withdrawing. That started a whole chain of 

Teiser: Was that when Leon Adams left too? 

Bacci.: That s right. Everything happened there at the one 
time. You see, Harry A. Caddow had been secretary- 
manager over Leon Adams. He had been the secretary- 
manager from the inception of Wine Institute in 193^ 
And things began to build up. Personality clashes, 
and weaknesses perhaps on the part of some individuals 
that became magnified perhaps out of proportion. And 
then I think some people were looking for convenient 
excuses not to pay dues if they could get away with it. 
And, very frankly, I felt that some of the resignations 
were due to that, and I still feel that way. 

So we then reorganized Wine Institute so that the 
position of president became a professional full-time 
job, and the elective offices were, amongst the 
industry members, non-pay. That left (going down) vice- 
president, second vice-president, the third, the secretary 
and treasurer as well as chairman of the board. And 
Mr. Don McColly has been president of Wine Institute 
ever since, and a very capable one. They made a 
wonderful choice. 

Teiser: You mentioned General Deane. His career in the wine 

industry started after his retirement from the military 

Bacci.: That s right. It started with Italian Swiss Colony. 
He s now the chairman of the board of our company, 


Teiser: Yes, I remembered that, and so I thought to ask you a 
little about him. When was he first associated with 
your organization? 

Bacci.: Let s see now. I forget how long he was with the 
Italian Swiss Colony. We had become very friendly 
in that period. We would meet frequently during the 
course of our Wine Institute meetings and got to know 
each other very well. I always admired him. He is a 
man of great honesty and character and integrity 
just the kind of a fellow you d like to be associated 
with, and when he resigned from the Italian Swiss Colony, 
we then would ask him to meet with us frequently for 
lunch. It started in that way. 


By "us," you mean you and Mr, 


Mr. Lanza, right. And then after that we asked him if 
he f d like to be a member of the board, and we did that 
for a while and then he became chairman of the board. 
And he s been serving us in that capacity ever since. 
He s a very, very fine gentleman. He came into the 
wine business just absolutely green, as the result 
actually of friendships he had made in the military 

You see, he was secretary of the General Staff 
during World War II, and in that capacity had traveled 
to all of the F.D.R. conferences all over the world 
Casablanca, Teheran, Potsdam, wherever they had gone. 
And during that period in his capacity as secretary to 
the General Staff, he worked in very close association 
with Colonel Bill Donovan, who was head of the O.S.S. 
When he decided to retire from the military service, he 
came back by way of New York, and while there thought 
he d call on his friend Bill Donovan. 

Bill Donovan had a law office, and, as I remember 
the story, Bill asked him, "Well, what do you intend 
to do now, Euss?" He said, "I don t have any idea." 
He said, "All I ve ever done was to be in the military. 
I don t know what I m suited for." He said, "Wait a 
minute. Let s go down and see my friend Seton Porter." 
Seton Porter was either chairman of the board or 
president of the National Distillers, and thsy had 
acquired an interest in the wine industry out here, 
had bought the Shewan- Jones plant, had bought the 
Italian Swiss Colony. And so they go in to see Seton 
Porter. He didn t go in to see him he didn t bring 
him in there to see him with respect to going into the 


Bacci.: wine business. But he brought him in there knowing 

that Set on Porter was very active in, I think it might 
have been the Licensed Beverage Industries, which is 
the public relations arm of the alcoholic beverage 
Industry, actually principally spirits. And they had 
been looking for someone to head up that organization. 
When he went in there Seton Porter said to him, "Well, 
gee, I wish you had come in here yesterday. We Just 
hired So-and-so. I forget who it was; we just hired 
him yesterday. But," he said, "wait a minute. We ve 
got some wine interests in California we d like to 
pull together. How would you like to go to California?" 
Deane said, "Well, that s where I was born." He says, 
"Well, fine. Let s go." 

And the first thing you know, he comes out here, 
and he s out here and he s president of the Italian 
Swiss Colony. [Laughter] 

Here his experience at the negotiating table, his 
experience at conferences, and his own traits of 
character just seemed to fit in admirably into a trade 
association [The Wine Institute], for instance, where 
you have a lot of competitive influences. I always 
remember the impression that he made on me, and 
continued to make on me, because he would sit there 
and understandably the subjects that were being 
discussed he couldn t have had any familiarity with at 
all. To him it was a strange business, it was a new 
business, it was a new language being spoken that he 
didn t have any great knowledge of. He might have done 
some reading on it, but admittedly had no experience in 
it. And he would sit there, and each of us would be 
expressing an opinion, and fighting and arguing. I 
remember Russ would get to a point he d sit there and 
he wouldn t say very much but he d say, "Well, gentlemen, 
I m sure I don t have to tell you that what I know about 
the wine business you can stick in your left eye. But 
it seems to me that, from what I ve heard said here, 
that if you d make a motion that would provide this, 
one, two, three, it seems to me that it would cover 
the things you re doing and would pretty much summarize 
what all of you seem to have in mind." 

He d no sooner do that than somebody would say, 
"If you make that motion, Russ, I ll second it." And 
that would happen repeatedly. Certainly you didn t 
acquire that kind of ability by being captain of an 
infantry group or an artillery group. It came from 
actually what he had experienced for so long at the 

.Harry Baccigaluppt (center) with Maynard A. Amerlne (left) of the University of California 

t Davis, and Brother Timothy (right) of Mont La Salle Vineyards, at a dinner of the Napa 
Valley Vintners, October 18, 1961. Photograph courtesy of Harry Bacclgaluppl 

Harry Bacclgaluppi presents a copy of the Wine Advisory Board s book, Favorite Recipes of California Wlnenakers 
to Mrs. Edmund G. Brown In the kitchen of the California state governor s mansion about 1963. 


Bacol.: negotiating tables. He Just knew how to take conflicting 
opinions and then sort of separate the chaff from the 
wheat and crystalize them into one thought that he felt 
would cover everybody s point of view. And he has 
always demonstrated that ability. 

That was why actually when I got to the end of my 
term as president of the Institute, I was the one who 
recommended strongly that General Deane succeed me. 
I felt he was not only worthy of the honor but I felt 
very strongly that he had all of the ability that it 
required to keep a sort of competitive group together. 
And he did that extremely well. And I f m Just delighted 
that things have taken that turn where we have been able 
to be associated together in business and we ve been 
close friends ever since. He s just a gem of a person, 
there s no question about it. 


Teiser: I want to go back to pick up a subject in the earlier 
period. Victor Repetto s name has come up, I think, 
occasionally. Did California Grape Products have a 
label that was named for him? 

Bacci.: No, he always denied that the label was named for him. 
Our general line was called "Victor." (Actually I ve 
got an old label here. Here it is, here. It will 
serve to give you an idea as to how it worked. ) "Victor" 
was a sort of an Identifying mark that characterized 
the entire line of wines that was put out by California 
Grape Products Company, Ltd. , but there was always a 
now for instance, this was the H.O. Lanza brand, you 
see. Now Victor Repetto always denied that Victor had 
any relationship to his name. He said it meant victor 
the winner. That s exactly what he contended. 

Teiser: Who was Victor Hepetto? 

Bacci.: Victor Hepetto was a man who had been associated as a 
very young man with the old Italian Swiss Colony had 
worked for the old Italian Swiss Colony. And later 
went into the employ of another one we ve mentioned 
here, Cella Brothers Inc. 

Teiser: Had Repetto always been in New York? 


Bacci.: Always in New York. He was born in New York. He then 
became associated with Cella Brothers, and actually he 
was still with the operation as the head bookkeeper of 
Cella Brothers -G. Cella & Brother when I worked for the 
sane company. As a matter of fact, I was just a billing 
clerk and a junior clerk when Victor Hepetto asked for 
a little raise and mind you he had to ask it of the 
general manager Profumo who actually happened to be a 
neighbor of his they both lived in Ridgewood, New 
Jersey the raise was denied him. 

And with that I remember Mr. Profumo taking me 
out into the warehouse. He wanted this to be very 
quiet, and I think it must have been where we stacked 
our macaroni. In those days it was all bought in 22- 
pound boxes; it wasn t packaged as it is today. We 
got into one of these rows and he very softly broke 
the news to me that Victor was leaving and he said, "I m 
sure he is making a mistake." He said "He must have 
somebody to take his place." Now here was a man who 
was the head bookkeeper. And he added, "I want you to 
succeed Victor." And I said, "Well, Mr. Profumo, I 
don t know the difference between a debit and a credit. 
I have never gotten into the bookkeeping end of it." 
He said, "That will be for us to find out." 

Well, I thought, this was it. They insist that 
I ve got to be the head bookkeeper. I don t know a 
debit from a credit. So I remember going to the public 
library and taking out a book on the ABC s of bookkeeping, 
And I digested that in one evening. The next day I 
brought that back and took out a little bit more 
advanced book. And I think I went through about three 
or four books on elementary bookkeeping, and then 
started examining Repetto s books and accounts and how 
he kept this and how he took a trial balance and what 
this meant and how you made a debit and a counter 
balancing credit under the double-entry bookkeeping 
system. And you never saw anybody who was prouder in 
his life than I at the end of that first month when I 
took a trial balance and it came out to the penny on 
the first crack. That was the last time it ever 
happened. [Laughter] So, you see, I succeeded Victor. 

Then he went with this man [Mario P] Tribune, 
whose name came into this. He went with this Mr. 
Tribuno, who owned the California Grape Products 
Company, and I think became secretary of that company. 
And it was after Mr. Tribuno had become discouraged 
with the operation Mr. Lanza gave you the details as 

Baccl.: to how the approach was made and how actually he was 
given money to buy the company. It was Hepetto who 
actually approached Mr. Lanza, because they had had 
occasion to meet and get to know each other during 
the days when Fruit Industries, Ltd., was being 
organized. They were meeting in Washington, meeting 
in San Francisco, meeting all over the place. So there 
was a dialogue between them of one kind or another. 
And that s how the approach was made. 

And he became the partner of Mr. Lanza in this 
California Grape Products Company. And some ten years 
later they liquidated their interests. They separated; 
Lanza and Hepetto separated in 19^2 . At that point Mr. 
Lanza took it over on his own. 

Teiser: Thank you very much for straightening that out. Let 
me clear up another point then. In an interim period 
there was a Horace 0. Lanza winery, when the company 
was reorganized as that, and then it was reorganized 
again. How did it go? 

Baccl.: Yes. As I remember that, that Horace 0. Lanza, as an 
individual entity, individually owned company, came 
about as a result of the let s see. I forget exactly 
how that came about. I thought first that it might 
have come about when Repetto and Lanza separated. But 
that isn t true, because actually... 

Teiser: After Garrett took over Italian Vineyards, was It? 
Bacci.: That s right. Let s see here. 

Teiser: ^5 is the date I have for its existence, Just about 
one year. 

Baccl.: That s right. Because the other had come before. 
California Grape Products continued in existence. 
Right. And later California Grape Products were 
liquidated, as I remember. And at that point, then, 
Mr. Lanza individually held these vineyard and winery 
properties and they operated for about one year as I 
recall it. They operated as H.O. Lanza, as an 
individually owned winery, and I continued to manage 
that operation. 

Teiser: And that was in the Delano area? 


Bacci.: That was in the Delano area, yes. But our office was 
still here, we retained offices here. 

Teiser: California Grape Products Company became California 
Grape Products Corporation then? Is that it? 

Bacci.: It became that in 

Teiser: Well, didn t the Lanza Winery then go out of existence 
and then California Grape Products Corporation came in? 

Bacci.: No, the winery was sold to California Grape Products 

Corporation and the vineyard properties were incorporated 
as Lanza Vineyards, Inc. We had so many of these changes 
that I can t keep them clearly in mind. 

Teiser: California Grape Products Corporation then was a 

privately owned corporation, or what do you call it? 

Bacci.: It was a closely-held corporation. 

Teiser: Then not until 196^4- was there the change to Calgrape 
Wineries, Inc.? 

Bacci.: It was in 196^ that California Grape Products 

Corporation, which is still in existence today and 
which owned the winery, sold that winery to a group 
in which it participated as a member and became a 
cooperative winery. The other members of Calgrape 
Wineries, Inc. were all part of a group of grape growers 
in the greater Delano area for whom we had been 
performing services for a number of years; services 
consisting of providing a home for their grapes. We 
would process those grapes into wines and other grape 
products and periodically as a matter of fact every 
month we would pay them their proportionate share of 
the sales proceeds. 

Teiser: These were growers? 

Bacci.: Growers, right. Their proportionate share of the 
sales made in the previous month, and these were 
distributed to these growers. And that went on for a 
number of years [until] we felt that it was desirable 
that they actually take a more active interest in the 
operation of the winery than merely being outsiders 
having a service performed for them. They actually 
should become part owners, so to speak, of that winery. 

Teiser: Let me interrupt here to ask, when did you first take 
over management of the winery at Delano? 


Bacci.: That was in 1964. Well, prior to 196*1- we were operating 
as the California Grape Products Corporation, which 
owned vineyards and also owned a winery. 

Teiser: And when did you first take over that particular 

winery, that California Grape Products Corporation 

Bacci.: Well, that was the one that actually was the continuation 
from the old California Grape Products Company and its 
association with Repetto and then into H.O. Lanza, and 
then into California Grape Products Corporation. 

Actually the pressures for the formation of this 
winery began to develop amongst the growers themselves, 
because they began to realize that our company, 
California Grape Products, was extending its activities 
in the grape-growing field and [they] began to look 
with some fear perhaps on the day when that plant would 
be utilized entirely for serving the vineyards of the 
California Grape Products Corporation. And they then 
asked for conferences to be held. 

The meetings were held and they finally decided, 
a group of five, one of which was California Grape 
Products Corporation, decided to form another group. 

Teiser: Who were the other four? 

Bacci.: The other four consisted of the Kern County Land Co., 
W.B. Camp and Sons, M Caratan, Inc., and W.B. Camp 
Jr., Inc. W.B. Camp Jr. was an offshoot of W.B. Camp 
and Sons; they were a part of that. And the California 
Grape Products Corporation. 

They then formed this cooperative and bought this 
winery from California Grape Products Corporation, and 
then agreed that so long as California Grape Products 
Corporation had operated this unit for so long, had 
contact with the trade, had the established trade, that 
actually California Grape Products Corporation should 
manage this operation in behalf of Calgrape Wineries, 
Inc. And that s what it s been ever since. 

Teiser: Is this a cooperative under the legal definition? 

Bacci.: Yes, yes. It met all of the requirements of the 
cooperative law. 

Teiser: How much land does it represent? 


Bacci.: Well, actually, in and of itself, the winery has very 
little land. It doesn t have very much of its own. 
But the land owned by the individual members given 
over to grape growing is in excess of 10,000 acres. 
That s why we ve always felt that actually the winery 
had a potential source of grape supply that would 
amount to 100,000 tons, which actually would make it 
the most important unit in that area. 

Teiser: I think the Regional Oral History Office first knew 

of Mr. Lanza through Mr. W.B. Camp, who was interviewed 
at length.* 

Bacci,: W.B. Camp had come into the picture by virtue of Mr. 
Lanza having sold his vineyards to W.B. Camp. The 
vineyards we have today are not the same vineyards we 
had then. Actually Mr. Camp s introduction to the 
grape industry came as a result of acquiring some of 
the vineyards owned by Mr. Lanza, in the 50 s. And 
that s how Mr. Camp came to acquire his first interest 
in grape growing actually. I think they ve since 
extended their plantings. But that s how that came 

Teiser: What is the Lanza Vineyards, Inc. now? 
Bacci.: Nothing today. That s been liquidated. 

Teiser: Did that continue after the organization of Calgrape 

Bacci.: Yes, that continued for a while after the organization 
of Calgrape Wineries, and it must have been in the 
neighborhood of two or three years ago that Lanza 
Vineyards sold its vineyards to the California Grape 
Products Corporation. So California Grape Products 
Corporation today owns the vineyards that were 
developed in later years by Mr. Lanza in the Lanza 

Teiser: Mr. Lanza Indicated that after his daughter s death 
he became less interested in business. 


Bacci. : 

Bacci. : 

Bacci. : 

Bacci. : 

Bacci. : 

That s right. 

And then later on he became more interested again and 
more active? 

That s right, that s a fact. There was a period 
there, when his daughter died while giving birth, in 
19*14 June, 19*14, as I remember it, the end of May 
and the early part of June, 19*J4 , he had become 
completely demoralized and discouraged at that point. 
And went along for a number of years. Oh, he would 
come in every day. He would still be in here pitching, 
but not with the same verve and vim and vigor as he 
had in the past. 

Was she his only child? 

No. She was one of three daughters. One had died 
previously, and then this daughter died. He has one 
daughter who is still alive, yes. 

He showed me pictures of his grandchildren, 
he later became more active? 

But then 

That s right. And then, as a matter of fact, later 
discovered that when he had no more vineyard that 
actually the winery was suffering from it, because it 
had no assured source of supply. And at that point 
he always has been a great believer in land. I think 
it came from his early youth, as a boy. It was a part 
of his family tradition to own land. Land was that one 
tangible thing that had real value. You were never 
poor so long as you had land. And so in 1955 and 1956 
he bought more land. 

And then sort of simultaneously with that, one of 
his grandchildren, who is still very actively associated 
with the company and runs our vineyard operation... 

Who is he? 

John Bree...John showed an interest. He had been in 
the Air Force and previously had been educated, I 
believe, at Oregon State. It might have been Oregon too 
and Oregon State. But had not shown up to the time he 
came out of the service any particular inclination to 
follow in his grandfather s, or even his father s, 
footsteps, and all of a sudden seemed to develop an 
interest in learning more about grape growing and farming, 


Bacci.: and with that went to Davis. And that I think Mr. 

Lanza would probably deny it, but he s not kidding me 
I think sparked a new interest. Here was one of his 
offspring who actually was showing signs of following 
in his footsteps. And with that he started buying 
land all over the lot. And then I think acquired 
something in the neighborhood of another 1,200 acres, 
which is what we re farming today. In fact he actually 
acquired even more than that; I think it was maybe 
1,500 acres. Today we farm about 1,200 of it. But 
that s where it came from. 

And it was a combination, I d say. It was a 
combination of the realization that the company he had 
founded and in which he was a very active part and had 
a very substantial interest, that it couldn t possibly 
succeed without having a vineyard of its own, of 
varieties that would produce good wines. And that 
again, that thought stimulated by his grandson s 
interest, just caused him to take off again, you see. 


Telser: Your mentioning his grandson at Davis and the varietals-- 
you were speaking of the variety Ugni blanc. I noticed 
in a bulletin of Dr. Amerine and Dr. Winkler, California 
Wine Grapes,* it was on the not-recommended list. 

Bacci.: Well, that s one of the things that he made reference 
to, you see. There have been a lot of changes in 
thinking even on the part of the University that have 
taken place on some of these varieties. What was said 
in certain periods and at certain times I m sure was 
based upon what they believed to be sound observations 
made at the time. But it s been disproved since.** 
Did I tell you of the experience with the Semillon? 
And now you take the Ugni blanc. Mr. Lanza was the one 
who brought the Ugni blanc into this country. 

*M.A. Amerine and A.J. Winkler, California Wine Grapes, 
California Agricultural Experiment Station Bulletin 

**See also interview with Dr. A.J. Winkler in this 


Teiser: It s the same as the Saint-Bmilion? 

Bacci.: Saint-Emilion, and the same as is known in Italy as 
the Trebbiano. He didn t bring in the Saint-Emilion 
as Ugni blanc; he brought it in as Trebbiano. You 
see, a good deal of his reading always had to do with 
Italian literature. This is his wine library here. 
Everything in there is... and that s the best binding 
that you could buy at the time* everything here has 
to do with wine or grape growing. And it s all in 
Italian, you see; everything is in Italian. So it was 
natural for him to lean in that direction. 

Well now, we planted the grape, found it did well, 
found that it makes a good wine, and then in later 
years discovered that this is the variety that s used 
in Prance for the making of Cognac. That s one of the 
three varieties used in Prance for the making of 
Cognac, in the Cognac district in Prance. In fact we 
have made brandy from it too. 

Teiser: Do you make brandy regularly? 

Bacci.: We have made brandy sort of spasmodically, but it s 
part of our operation. Some of the brandy we made, 
a substantial part of the mix being Ugni blanc, was 
rated by the University at Davis as unusually good. 
I recall that these are some of the things they said: 
"This is the finest current brandy that s ever come 
under our observation." This was just out of the still. 
And then another observation made, and I ve got that 
documented I don t feel free to spread it around 
because I feel it s unfair to take advantage of an 
individual who in all honesty is giving you an appraisal 
and it may embarrass him. But I can assure you it s 
in there. I can show it to you, I m sure I ve got it 
here. Two things that were said. One was that it was 
"the finest current brandy ever to come under my 
observation" or "our observation." The second was, 
"We ve rated it eight on a ten-point scale." In other 
words, ten points being absolute perfection, and eight 
was their rating of this brandy. 

Now, I was amused here recently to find that one 
of our top winemakers in the state, one of our top table 

*The books are in traditional European paper bindings. 


Bacci.: winemakers, has come out with a wine that s called 
this is Wente Brothers have come out with Blanc de 
blanc. It s a blend of two grapes; it s a blend of 
the Chenin blanc and the Ugni blanc. And the Ugni 
blanc vines that are bearing these grapes the cuttings 
came from us at Delano. [Laughter] 

Teiser: And they re growing them? 
Bacci.: In the Livermore Valley, right. 

As a matter of fact, at a brunch party that the 
entire Wente family had been invited to, and I was 
invited to because of my close association with them 
over the years Herman Wente *s widow had been invited 
and Herman s brother Srnest, his old brother, and his 
wife, and young Karl, who is now running the operation, 
and his wife, Jean they were all there. And I ve 
always been very, very close to them. And this 
conversation started on the Blanc de blanc, and I told 
them that I had been at a restaurant in Bakersfield 
and was quite surprised to find on the wine list 
Wente *s Blanc de blanc, and I ordered it for the group, 
and was quite pleased with what we found. And Ernest 
Wente said, "You know, those cuttings, that Ugni blanc 
that you grow down there you know, you got those 
grapes from us. Those cuttings came from our vineyard." 

Well, I came back and I discussed it with Mr. 
Lanza. He said, "No, he s got it wrong. It s the 
opposite. H He said, "As a matter of fact, it was I 
who brought them in," and he named the doctor whom he 
had in his employ up at Ukiah, a man by the name of 
Dr. Carlo Agazzotti, whom we brought over here as an 
enologist from Italy. Had used him to contact friends 
in Italy to bring these over. (Today it can t be done 
quite so simply as it was done then. Today they go 
into quarantine and whatnot. There are long periods 
of time before they re released. But at that time it 
was possible. ) 

And it was in a conversation between Lanza and 
Herman Wente that the matter of this Ugni blanc came up 
and Herman asked for some cuttings. His brother, you 
see, hasn t been too closely identified with the 
operation, had forgotten where A was and where B was, 
you see. But I straightened him out by letter. 

Teiser: Are there any other theories that you have challenged 
in that successful way? 





Bacci. : 
Bacci. : 

Bacci. : 

We never feel that we ve actually revolutionized 
anything in particular. 

Or any innovations? 

I ve been part of a picture I am very frank to say 
that I had very little to do with starting it but I 
have been part of it and I ve been watching with a 
great deal of satisfaction how you find that thinking 
has turned around on the part of the industry. They 
would look upon anything grown in the [San Joaquin] 
Valley, of course, to be depreciated, never fully 
realizing, I believe, that what they were talking 
about was certain varieties all the time. They had 
never had the experience of growing anything other 
than varieties that had been grown there for a long 
time, namely, heavy bearers and something that turned 
out a dark red [wine color] or produced a very heavy 
yield per acre. And all of a sudden they have 
awakened to the fact that it is possible to grow good 
grapes in that valley. And we ve proved it. 

Good grapes are now referred to in the newspapers as 


That s a funny designation. 

That s a funny designation, 
"varietal," you know. 

Even a Thompson is a 

And you started this well before.... 

Oh, yes, as a matter of fact, I can give you this. 
When the Kern County Land Company became interested in 
developing part of its lands for grape growing and 
after we leased 1,500 acres from them in two pieces 
(one was approximately 1,000 acres and later another 
500 acres), on an agreement that called for our developing 
the land and certain monetary considerations being 
involved, and of course they wanted to know what we 
thought were the proper varieties to plant. And we laid 
out for them what we thought these first 1,000 acres 
should consist of, but I don t think we went through it 
again on the second part. 

Teiser: When was this? 


Bacci.: I can tell you that fairly closely. Let s see, now. 

This is 1969. I can get that for you. 
It was in 1958. 

I ve got it, 

Well, anyway, at that time they had asked that 
we give them a list of what we thought was the manner 
and the proportions in which this vineyard should be 
planted. And unbeknown to us (we were told this later) 
they apparently went up to Davis and showed it to some 
body there. I never did know exactly to whom it was 
shown. But whoever it was took one look at it and 
said, "Well, that s Lanza. That s California Grape 
Products." [Laughter] I think they meant to say 
nobody but he would be that crazy to plant these 
varieties in that area. 

Teiser: What varieties were they? 

Bacci.: Well, there was everything in there. Semillon was in 
there, and, let me see, I can refresh my memory very 
easily here. 

Teiser: I think it didn t get into really public discussion 

until Gallo started to encourage varieties unusual for 
the valley. 

Bacci.: That s right, that s right. Again, there were people 
before it got into public discussion who realized what 
we had going. I can give it to you. This will refresh 
my memory, [thumbs through some papers] Well, I see 
one here. I see Black Malvoisie. These are the kinds 
of things that would have caused people to identify 
[the plan] with us, you see. And I see Grenache here. 
Actually at that time it had not been widely planted 
in the valley; some had been around Lodi but not too 
much, some around Modesto but nothing much farther 
south than that. Pedro Ximenez. Ugni blanc. Chenin 
blanc. French Colombard. Malvasia bianca. These 
were the kinds of things that anybody at Davis who 
knows something about plantings throughout the state 
would say, "Oh, hell, that s Lanza." 

And, as you ve observed, there has been growing 
interest in that area, because people appreciate what 
the potential is. You see, one of the sad parts of 
the valley, before we became interested in this 
operation to the extent that we have, was the fact 
that it was awful difficult to get, say, a good dry red 
wine out of the general area and I m talking about the 
general San Joaquin Valley that, if you re a wine 

Bacci.: taster at all, you couldn t immediately identify and 
appreciate by describing the flavor reaction you got 
as being, "Oh, that s a valley red wine." That wasn t 
said in a complimentary sense at all. It had a 
certain almost an earthiness to it that you could 

Teiser: No one bothered to make wines as carefully in those 

Bacci.: Well, that s it exactly. YOU see, even with the grapes 
they had, they were following the same techniques that 
they followed in the making of a dessert wine, where 
actually the very end product will lend itself to a 
lot more abuses than you can subject a table wine to. 
You can t. They re two entirely different products. 
You just can t make them exactly the same way, any 
more so than you can treat something that you want to 
cook sometimes you get the flavor reaction that you 
want by sauteing, yet that doesn t mean deep frying, 
you see. And I think too many of them have been deep 
frying for too long. I think that s Just about the 
difference; it s the difference between saute and deep 
fry, and I think you get the distinction there. 

And I think that s one of the things that they re 
learning, and I think they re beginning to and I m 
speaking of the grape growers generally they re 
beginning to see these kinds of prices that are being 
offered for better varieties. And it must dawn on 
somebody that there must be something that can be grown 
on this land that s more valuable than what they ve 
been growing on it. Apparently what they ve been 
growing on it is either in too plentiful supply for 
it to command any kind of a price, or its basic 
characteristics aren t such as to justify paying any 
more for it than has been paid for it. 


Teiser: Does the change in public demand for types of wine 
enter into this, too? 

Bacci.: Oh, I don t think there s any question about it. I 
don t think there s any question about it. Your 
consuming public, not in every case, but in general, 


Bacci.: your consuming public is beginning to acquire a 

knowledge of wines that enables them to distinguish 
between the good and the ordinary. And they* re 
beginning to find that there are wines made available 
to them, at modest prices, that have certain very 
desirable and very enjoyable characteristics. That 
wasn t true not too many years ago. Even today you 
can buy a very modest priced bottle of wine and really 
enjoy it, and your friends will enjoy it. And that 
wasn t true not too long ago. I remember when we 
would have some of these meetings around Fresno, and 
it was always customary to have either a group luncheon 
or a dinner. Some of these local wines would of course 
be served at this. Well, you know, you would think: 
I wonder if I couldn t get something from the north? 

And I always remember this. It shook me. I 
remember when we first went to Guasti I found they were 
making there I won t say we found, I, found (I m going 
to be immodest at this point) a wine that was called 
Grignolino. And what I found in it was a flavor 
characteristic that I thought would really please the 
general public, because it didn t have any of that 
harshness or heaviness that was characteristic of some 
of our northern red wines. It was a soft wine; that 
was the best way to describe it. And I got to having 
it served, you know, at our little functions down there 
at Guasti quite frequently. And I remember we had 
some guests there one time. After serving this 
Grignolino, of which I was so proud it was beginning 
to take hold and actually it had acquired quite a 
reputation in the state, although it was available only 
in a very limited quantity when one of my own associates 
asked the guests, "Now, don t you want to taste some 
real wine?" And we had some wine that we had brought 
down from Ukiah, and I thought, "Well, this is good 
public relations work if I ve ever seen it. This is 
perfect!" [Laughter] 

Teiser: Is there anything else you think of to wind up this... 

Bacci.: No, I can t. 

Teiser: Certainly you ve given a very lucid account. 

Bacci.: Well, thank you, Miss Teiser. I can t think of anything 
in particular. The thing that I feel happiest about 
in this industry is to see this increasing acceptance 
of table wines. It s something that those of us who 


Bacci.: have spent a lifetime in this business have always 
dreamt and prayed might come about some day. We 
never looked I never looked at the consumption of 
dessert wines as being anything other than a sort of 
a temporary stop-gap. I never thought of it as being 
the kind of a wine that would develop the kind of users 
whom you could look upon as being loyal, continual 
users. To begin with, the very nature of the product 
is one that lends itself only to occasional use. I 
always felt about table wines that when a man gets to 
a point where he learns to appreciate table wines and 
enjoys them with his meal, there is nothing that can 
quite take its place. There is nothing. He might be 
talked out of he might change from a burgundy to a 
Zinfandel, or from a Zinfandel to a Cabernet, or from 
a red wine to a white wine. But once he begins to 
enjoy wines with his meals, there isn t anything in 
the alcoholic beverage scheme of things that can cause 
him to stop using it. Oh, he might, on a very hot day 
perhaps, take a glass of beer in place of wine. 

On the other hand, the user of dessert wines, I 
always felt, was one that any kind of a heavy promotion 
on any other kind of an alcoholic beverage would cause 
him to switch from that to something else, you see. 
Just as you have people who would switch from bourbon 
to Scotch, or from Scotch to gin, or from gin to vodka. 
But the wine drinker, and I speak of a wine drinker as 
one who really enjoys wine with his meals I don t 
even think of the man who thinks of wine between meals, 
although it definitely has a place there.... That s 
one of the developments in our industry that I think 
is the most gratifying. And I think it s the one that 
gives every indication of a rather promising future. 
You find now that the disproportionate use of dessert 
wines as against table wines has changed around 
completely, and it won t be too long before more table 
wines are shipped than dessert wines. There s no 
question about that. 

And we re beginning to develop a more discriminating 
user. It isn t a question of an ordinary red wine. 
There s a phrase that I ve always shuddered at because 
of my background, I suppose. I ve always shuddered 
when I ve heard people refer to "dago red." And that 
to me always meant it was never complimentary. And I 
don t think it was Intended in an uncomplimentary way 
when it was spoken by anybody, but it described a. type 
of ordinary red wine. Take a grape and ferment it dry, 


Bacci.: and if it has a dark color and it has some alcohol in 
it, that s a "dago red." But I think we ve gotten 
out of that. I think we re getting out of that. 

Teiser: [Laughing] I haven t heard the term used for years. 
Prohibition, I guess, was when it came up. 

Bacci.: I don t know when it started. I don t know when it 

started or why or how it started, but the fact of the 
matter is that was the term applied to the ordinary 
red wine that was available to anybody who wanted to 
buy it. But we ve come out of that. 

Now you find people have very definite likes and 
dislikes, and the thing that I enjoy most being a part 
of this industry is that you get into any group, any 
kind of a social group you can go to a cocktail party, 
you can go to any kind of a conference, and just let 
word get around that there s a wine man in the group, 
and you become the center of conversation and attraction. 
[Laughing] I remember, Miss Teiser, if I can Just 
digress for a moment, I remember visiting my daughter 
and son-in-law. He s a career military man, a West 
Point man, now a lieutenant colonel at the Pentagon. 
But before he went there he was at Fort Hood. He was 
in charge of a battalion there. 

I paid them a visit, and while I was there, 
unfortunately he received word that his father had 
passed away, and he had to leave and go back to Detroit 
for his father s funeral. But he apparently had set up 
something in the way of a grand tour for me of the base, 
and among other things he even provided a field Jacket 
for me, mind you, with the 123rd Maintenance Battalion 
on this breast and Baccigaluppi on this breast and a 
cap with the battalion insignia on it, and I was taken 
through the jumps even to the point of driving a tank, 
on my own, mind you. It even got into that. And went 
on the rifle range and all of this business. Well, 
when we got all through, this other lieutenant colonel 
who was taking me around said, "Wouldn t you like to 
meet Prank s commanding officer?" I think he said 
Colonel Walde; yes. And I said, "Yes, I d like to." 
So he brings me into the colonel s office, and here s 
this very handsome looking man sitting behind a desk, 
and alongside of him is another colonel, equally 
handsome. And he Just was puzzled by the sight of this 
old buzzard here with his field jacket and holding his 
cap in his hand, and he said, "Well, now, Just what is 


Bacci.: your connection here?" 

I said, "Well, I happen to "be Lt. Col. Clark s 
father-in-law." "Oh, yes", yes." Well, he was still 
a little bit mixed up. He still couldn f t figure me 

And then he said, "Well, what do you do as 
business or profession?" 

And I said, "Well, I happen to be a member of the 
wine industry. I f ve been in the wine business all of 
my life." 


And the first thing you know, we got into a 
conversation on wines. He had learned to like Gallo*s 
Paisano, and we got into a discussion of that. 

All right, fine. That s done with. And Colonel 
Walde still asks for me, mind you. We get through with 
that and two nights later my daughter takes me Into the 
home of some other officers who were having a little 
reception. These were all young captains and majors 
and lieutenant colonels and I wasn t part of this age 
group at all, you know. Until something was said about 
wine. I forget who started the conversation, but my 
daughter says, "You might ask my dad. He may know 
something about it." And the conversation starts there, 
and that went on for an hour and a half. That s just 
what they wanted to talk about just what they wanted 
to talk about. 

Now here when I, this past Christmas my daughter 
and son-in-law are now living in Alexandria, Virginia, 
and I went back to spend the Christmas holidays with 
them. My daughter s Invitation read: "We want you 
here, but be prepared to give lesson number two." 



A. "What Has Become of the Family Life Today?" by Horace 
0. Lanza. 

B. Horace 0. Lanza letter of November 18, 1969. 

What has become of the family life today? 

It was the afternoon of an Au 7 na3t day In 1896 when 
my mother who had ^ecn sick for sixteen months called to her bed 
side my father, then in his mla- fifties, and my brother, twenty- 
two, my sister, sixteen, myself fYurten::, and another sister, 
nine, and said, "Peter, I w*nt you t- lo k after Horace. Rose, 
I want you to look after Lucia, and I wwnt all you four to look 
after, your father. DC you promise"? That nl^ht in the 
evening she passed away, and we all knelt and prayed as we had 
been taught to do by her when in trouble. 

We had teen In this country about five years; we had 
all worked in the canning factory and on the farms around when 
ever we could. All wages had been turned over to her for use, 
and ahe left about $800.00 in -TO Id which we found tucked away In 
the hpttom of a trunk because she did not know or believe In banks* 

She had been a sort of a manager or the head of the family so far 
as running the house was concerned, and then my brother and older 
sister took over to keep the family e;oinz as one unit the same aa 
mother did when she was alive. 

She left us also a home and family heritage that served 
us all in good stead throughout our lives. The abode she left us 
was not a house, but a home where there was respect for the eldera 
and love and cooperation for 411. The home w^3 not the place 
where we just ate, slept and hung our coats, but rather the home 
where the family lived, where all our relatives and friends were 
welcome as an active part of the family institution, and though 
the cave was strictly our own, the ramification spread to all parta 


ln which the family was related. If we needed cotrfort or help, 
we knew where to find it. As we were regarded and sustained, so 
did we react In return, with the result that we never felt alone. 
We were a part of the family and community of the whole, and this, 
In spirit and In fact was Immense help throughout our lives. Our 
cares and burdens as well as our pleasures were shared by all. 

Fortunately, the Sicilian tradition being something 
like that of the English nubility, you claimed relationship to the 
seventh, niritr., cr w -,*. v -- r e : y -i o .id t- aoe it to, and the 
affection was as true ancl ^en .in*; a ! w- - In tn<? ! l rst 
degree. This carried the f airily attachment and influence to a greater 
and more beneficial decree. 

Many were the times when I started as a young lawyer in 
the City, that I would hear some people who knew my family say, 
"He is the son of Don Tote, or the son of Dcnna Maria Antonia - 

and that at once would establish my reputation and their favor. 
In those days the family meant much tc you, either socially or 
commercial ly . It carried weight either for you or against you - 
such was its influence. Through your home life you were judged 
and apnreciated, and always accepted on your merit. That put a 
responsibility on you tc make yourself worthy, and your self- 
respect kept you ambitious and happy. 

In trouble or sickness you alwsys had sympathy, attention 
and comfrrt from all in the family. In yt ;r school work, housework, 
sports or hobbies, you received cv,oper: -. *r.* participation or 


counsel from any member at hand. You played with other children 
in the neighborhood who were known or similarly situated as 
yourself; and seldom, If ever, you got into mischief that was 
detrimental to your character. You even abhorred justified 
criticism because you were prcud to be regarded decent and con 
spicuous for kind and ^ood behavior. You maintained a sort of an 
ideal to excel in the finer things of conduct. Your family were 
proud of ycur achievements, and you felt there was something that 
you ontrl,buted to that family s standing - that family s pride 
and happineas. Your worthy behavior followed you to your school 
where teachers and classmates came in contact with you. It 
followed you to your work, to the s^iops where you were sent on 
errands, to the people en the streets whom you chanced to meet, 
and to all people of good will that came to know you. You were 
pleased with the reward, and more so with the contribution you 
had made to the family ins M tut on. 

Yes, this contribution to trie >:lcry of the family is not 
made by one member only. It is mnde by all; and the parents and 
older merr.oers 3.. .: .d l,e tiif f \ rat !i the r-rdr --f their authority. 

Why do the c^: leges ind some teachers of today stress 
that the education of the young should be directed to develop the 
native ability of the individual rather tnan the obedience to 
discipline which is so terribly needed but neglected in the young, 
particularly the very young who are in the informat 1"" stage I 
How often ds we hear nowadays a boy or flrl say, "Oh, Dad, you 
forget now that I am 14, 16 or even IS 1 years oidl" What does 


ago got to do with matters of courtesy or respect for one s 
parents or eiders? Is not such teaching destructive of the family 
Institution Isn t discipline of the young and good maners of 
society Just as important for the happiness of the individual as 
his independence cf selfishness? "Doth man llveth unto himself*? 
What is the necessity of .family anyway, If each individual Is going 
to go his way as soon as he is --lei enough to go out and find food 
for himself as does the animal c! the forest? 

Mo political change of society or of the economy can 
take the place of love and solidarity of the family. Civilization 
and religion have devised many forms of society to Improve the 
lot of man, but none have fourth t^ie solution yet. Love and love 
alone seems to be promising arid t lei e Is no better place to find 
and cultivate love than in trie .-.ome. Let not the family be a 
breeding pl&f* nor r.e -.erne a ? .-arcing hf ! .-3e, >>ut let it be the 
home as an Institution of love, . od manners, food breeding and 
noble Ideals for the benefit <-f trtn. 

--H. 0. Lanza 

Sepfrrner 29, 1967 

qrape products . 




November IS, 1969 

Miss Ruth Teiser 

932 Vallejo Street 

San Francisco, California 94133 

Dear Miss Teiser: 

Thank you very much for your note of the 13th as well as for your 
kindness in sending me the additional prints. 

For such value as they may be to you, here are a few additional 
comments which I think would be interesting historically; 

There are two things that I would like to not^e in the history of 
the wine business. 

One is that practical men, emigrated from Europe, were the first 
grape growers and winemakers in this country. These were men who 
brought with them the knowledge and habits of their country of 

The Swiss, the Italians, the Spaniards, The Germans and people 
from other countries had notions of their own about locations, 
types and methods of making wine which continued until about the 
time when Prohibition arrived. 

During Prohibition there was no incentive for young people to get 
into it and when it terminated there were neither old-timers left 
nor young who knew much about the business at all. 

With the advent of Repeal, however, in 1933, a lot of young people 
full of ambition and desire, and among them a number of young 
chemists and trainees in agriculture who have made good. 

In the present era there is. no invention or discovery in science 

! cont d 

*/? : * i g , * * 



M V *" ^^ ^~"~ "" *" ~"^^ 


"Purueyors to America s Leading Vintners" 


Miss Teiser November 18, 1969 

page 2 

that when announced is not picked up by other scientists in other 
parts of the world and go one better. 

That is just exactly what has happened here with our young 
chemists and agricultural scientists. We have picked up all that 
the other parts of the world have learned and have gone them one 
better. We know now how to make wine as well as any other part of 
the world and how to grow what grapes, what varieties of grapes 
and where; how to make quality wines and how to blend and keep them. 

We have all types of soil and climate found throughout the world 
and so we have reason to feel encouraged that in the race for sur 
vival we will always be able to give a good account of ourselves. 

Another point to be observed is that the very nature of the wine 
business is such as to prevent anybody from cornering or control- 
ing it. There will be big operators, but nobody can control it. 
It is something like the restaurant business. Nobody, no matter 
how big can control it. A good cook with only $100.00 capital 
can start business with a light lunch stand and compete against 
any big outfit. 

In any line of business where it takes only small capital to start, 
there cannot be any monopoly. It takes big capital to start in 
the railroad business, in navigation, the airplane, automotive 
business, etc., but not in the restaurant or wine business. A good 
cook, a good winemaker can start business with a little capital and 
capture the trade of his neighborhood on his merits. 

If California consumes 4^,000,000 gallons of wines as it did last 
year, there is no populated county that cannot be served with a 
fine local wine. 

The excellent wines and tastings conducted by charitable organi 
zations and by the medical profession in some parts of the State 
attest to that. 

My thanks again for your courtesy and kindness. 

Sincerely yours, 

HOL:jl:cg Horace 0. Lanza 


INDEX Horace 0. Lanza - Harry Baccigaluppi 

Adams, Leon, 119 

Agazzotti, Dr. Carlo, 131 

Allen, Selina. See Lanza, Mrs. Horace 0. 

Amerine, Dr. Maynard A., 129 

Baccigaluopi . Harry, -passim 
Bardenheier (St. Louis), 28 
Barlotti, James A., 37, 39 
Bayuk Cigar Company, 10 
Beaulieu [Vineyard], 71 
Bongiorno, Dick, 83, 88 
Bree, John, 128 
Bunds cher, Charles, 32, 54 

Caddow, Harry A. , 119 

Calgrape Wineries, Inc., 125, 126, 127 

California Grape Products Company, Ltd., 8, 10, 16, 20, 27> 6l, 

92, 93, 118, 122, 123, 124, 125 

California Grape Products Corporation, 6l, 125, 126, 127, 133 
California Wine Association, 4, 5, 8, 11, 38, 41, 52, 54, 71, 

87, 119 

Caligrapo, 9, 93 
Camp, W.B. , 30, 127 
Camp, W.B. and Sons, 126 
Camp, W.B., Jr., 126 
Campbell Soup Company, 10, 70 
Canada Dry Company, 22, 23, 24, 25, 27 
Caratan, M., Inc., 126 
Cella Brothers, Inc., 73, 81, 82, 122 
Cella Brothers-G. Cella & Brother, 81, 82, 89, 93, 123 
Cella, G. and Brother, 78-81, 82, 87 
Cella, J.B[attista], 79 
Cella, Lorenzo, 79 
Cella Wine Company, 79 
Central California Wineries, Inc., 43 
Colonial Grape Products Company, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 20, 27, 54, 

55, 56, 73, 74, 82, 88. 93 
Colonial Wine Company, 4 
Conn, Donald D. , 12 
Critchfield, Burke H., 44 

Dantoni, , 55 

daRoza, Edward L. , 7 

daSoza Winery, 7 

Deane, General John R. , 118, 119, 120, 121, 122 


Di Giorgio, Joseph, 2J 9 28, 44-48, 55 

Di Giorgio, Sal, 48 

Di Giorgio, Vincent, 48 

Donovan, Colonel Bill, 120 

Earl Fruit Company, 46, 4? 

Engels and Krudwlg (Sandusky, 0.), 28 

Pederspiel, Sophus, 7, 8, 17, 18, 20, 38, 55, 82 
Federst>iel Wine Company, 7 
Fruit industries, Ltd., 12, 13, 14, 41, 124 
Furman, Al, 106 

Gallo [E. & J. Gallo Winery], 98, 133 

Gandolfi, L. & Company, 81 

Garrett & Company, 21, 27, 71, 115, 124 

Garrett, Paul, 12, 16 

Giannini, Frank, 13, 14 

Giulii, Nicolo ("Nick"), 21 

Grape Crush Marketing Order, 107 

Grape-0-Ney, 9 

Grape Products Marketing Order, 104 

Groezinger Winery, 50 

Guasti, Secondo, Jr., 12, 32 

Guasti, Secondo, Sr. , 37, 38, 41, 111 

Heublein, Inc. (Hartford), 28 
Hope, Frank, 16 

Horace 0. Lanza Winery, 124, 125 
Husman, George, 19 

Italian Swiss Colony, 23, 32, 38, 47, 48, 5^, 71, 82, 119, 120, 

Italian Vineyard Company, 21, 22, 24, 27, 28, 32, 35, 36, 37, 

38, 39, 71, 108-117, 124 

Jeppi , Frank , 30 

Kern County Land Company, 126, 132 

Lachman & Jacobi, 32, 54 

Lambert, John S., 3, 8 

Lanza, Horace 0., passim. See also Horace 0. Lanza Winery. 

Lanza, Mrs. Horace 0. (Selina Allen), 69 

Lanza, Peter, 1-2, 7, 60 

Lanza Vineyards, Inc., 125, 126, 127 

Lanza Winery, 7 

Leichter, William, 8, 18 

Linde, F.C. , Warehouse, 83 


Lombard Wine Company (Chicago), 28 
Lyons, H.G. , Company, 89 

Mangels, Glaus, 53 

Marketing Orders, 104-105, 106, 107 

Martini, Louis [M.], 8? 

Martini, R. , Wine Comroany, 8? 

McColly, Don, 119 

Mineau, Roy, 66 

Morrow, A[lmond] H. , 4, 38 

National Association of Wine Bottlers, 106 

Paderewski , Ignace , 34 

Perelll-Minetti, Antonio, 16 

Petri, Louis, 118 

Pillsbury, Evan S., 55 

Pillsbury, Madison & Sutro, 55 

Pleasant Valley Wine Company, 28 

Porter, Seton, 120 

Profumo, Louis, 73. 82, 93, 94, 123 

Prohibition, 4, 5-12 and passim, 82 and passim 

Putnam, D.W. (Hammondsport) , 28 

Repetto, Victor, 8, 16, 42, 122, 123, 124 

Roma [Wine Company]. 66 

Rossi, Edmund A., 48 

Rossi, P[ietro] C., 32 

Rossi, Robert D., 48 

Russell, Calvin, 4l 42 

Russo, A. William, 4, 28 

Sbarboro, Alfred E., 48 

Sbarboro, Andrea E., 48 

S catena Wine Company, 87 

Schilling, Glaus, 8, 18, 32, 36, 49-54, 55, 56, 63 

Sebastian!, Samuele, 87 

Setrakian, A[rpaxat], 43, 107 

Signorio, Fred, 111-112 

Taylor, Walter E., 41, 42, 44 
Tribuno, Mario P., 9, 123 
Tulare Winery Company, 13 

United Fruit Company, 45 

Vaccaro Brothers (New Orleans), 55 

Villa Vista Vineyard, 52 

Weller, Hoy, 21, 22, 115 
Wente Bros., 131 
Wente, Ernest, 131 
Wente, Herman, 131 
Wente, Karl, 131 
Wheeler, John W. , 53, 5^ 
Wlllebrandt, Mabel Walker, 13, 15 
Williams, Bill, 25, 26, 2? 
Woodbridge Winery, b 
Wine Advisory Board, 105 
Wine Institute, 118-122 
Winkler, Dr. A[lbert] J., 129 

Wines Mentioned in the Interviews 

angelica, 86, 8? 

Blanc de blanc, 131 
burgandy, 86 

chablis, 86 
claret, 86 
Concord, 60, 6l 

Grignolino, 135 
muscatel, 86 
port, 86 
Riesling, 33, 86 

sauterne, 86 
sherry, 86 

tokay, 86 

white port, 86, 87 

Zinfandel, 86 

Grape Varieties Mentioned in the Interviews 
Black Malvolsie, 133 


Gatawba , 59 

Catarratto, 35 

Chenin blanc, 3^, 131, 133 

Concord, 33, 59, 60 

French Colombard, 133 
Grenache, 133 

Inzolia, 35 
Italia Muscat, 58 

Malvasia bianca, 133 
Muscats, 31 

Pedro Ximenes, 133 

Saint-Emilion, 65, 130 
Simmon, 3^, 35, 129, 133 

Thompson Seedless, 31, 88, 132 
Tokay, 58 
Trebblano, 35, 6^-65 

Ugni blanc, 3^, 35, 64, 65, 129, 130, 131, 133 

Ruth Teiser 

Born in Portland, Oregon; came to the Bay Area 

in 1932 and has lived here ever since. 

Stanford, B. A., M. A. in English; further graduate 

work in Western history. 

Newspaper and magazine writer in San Francisco since 

1943, writing on local history and business and 

social life of the Bay Area. , 

Book reviewer for the San Francisco Chronicle 

since 1943. 

1 1 8 5