University of California General Library/Berkeley
Regional Cultural History Project
Stephen W. Downey
STEPHEN W. DOWNEY: CALIFORNIA WATER AND POWER ATTORNEY
An Interview Conducted By
Willa Klug Baum
Berkeley
1957
V -( V.
Stephen rf. Downey, middle 1930 's,
All uses of this manuscript are covered by an agreement
between the Regents of the University of California and
Stephen W. Downey, dated May 13» 1957* The manuscript
is hereby made available for research purposes. All
literary rights in the manuscript, including the
exclusive right to publish, are reserved to the General
Library of the University of California at Berkeley.
No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication
except by written permission of the Librarian of the
University of California at Berkeley.
INTRODUCTION
Since 1909, Stephen W. Downey has been engaged in legal
vork in Sacramento. Beginning primarily as a oersonal injury and
criminal lawyer, he advanced through a series of positions with
various public districts concerned with water and electric power
to eminence as one of the leading water attorneys in the state.
His work with public districts brought him into issues involving
public vs. private water interests, the relations between local
districts and the state and federal governments, and public dis
tricts vs. public utilities. And because water is at the heart
of California's economy, Sacramento is the capital of the state,
and his brother, Sheridan Downey, was United Sties Senator from
California, Stephen Downey, though essentially nonpartisan, was
close to state politics.
Mr. Downey, sliftht, white-haired, quick-moving, was 71
years old at the time the following interviews were tape-recorded
in his large office in the law firm of Downey, Brand, Seymour &
Rohwer located in downtown Sacramento. Though still actively en
gaged in his law practice, he took time out for six recording
sessions from October 195>6 to January 1957. A quiet-spoken, friendly
man, his gentle modesty almost belied his high reputation until
one became aware of the keen mind behind his unexpected humor and
easy speech.
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In one letter regarding the then-proposed interview
he wrote, "I do not have enough imagination to think anything
in my life is of historic value to California. I have foivr
children and eighteen grandchildren that are my only claim to
immorality (sic)." Perhaps a part of his influence also lies
in his conciliatory nature, his insistence on giving all his
associates their due credit, and his unwillingness to say a bad
word about anyone.
This series on interviews was tape-recorded and edited
by Willa Baum as oart of the work of the Regional Cultural His
tory Project, directed by Corinne L. Gilb. Associate Justice
Jesse W. Carter of the California Supreme Court recommended Mr.
Downey as an able participant in much of the major water and
power litigation in California.
Willa Baum
University of California Library, Berkeley
Regional Cvltvral History Project
May 3, 1957
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TABLE OP CONTENTS
INTRODUCTION
BIOGRAPHICAL !
1. Parents and Childhood 1
2. University of Michigan Law School 9
3. First Job — An Attorney with Devlin and Devlin 17
k* Private Practice—In Partnership with John P. Pullen 23
5. Entrance Into Water Work 27
6. Reorganization of the Firm 30
7. Marriage and a Family 3!
CALIFORNIA STATE BOARD OF RECLAMATION 37
1. Formation of the Sacramento-San Joequin Drainage
District 37
2. Efi'orts to Get Federal Funds for Flood Control \±2
3. Refinancing the Assessments 53
k» Duties of the Board of Reclamation 65
MERCED IRRIGATION DISTRICT 80
1. Legal Cases 80
2. Refinancing the District 9lj.
MADERA IRRIGATION DISTRICT 105
1. Killer and Lux vs. Madera Irrigation District, 1933 10f>
2. Negotiations to sell Friant Dam Site to the
United States 108
3. The 160-Acre Limitation and the Bureau of Reclamation 111
IRRIGATION DISTRICTS ASSOCIATION 117
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SACRAMENTO MUNICIPAL UTILITY DISTRICT 123
1. Formation of the Sacramento Municipal Utility
District to Provide Water 123
2. First Bond Issue 126
3. Bond Validation 133
Ij.. Valuation Proceedings Before the Railroad Commission 137
5. Negotiations to Purchase Power from the Central
Valley Project li|8
6. Management of SKUD 155
7. Hydroelectric Development on the American River 161
RECLAMATION DISTRICTS WORK 166
1. Present Problems of Reclamation Districts 166
2. Reclamation District 108 171
3. Reclamation District Assessments 175
l|. Comparison Between Irrigation Districts and Reclamation
Districts 180
5. Refinancing Problems of Irrigation Districts and
Reclamation Districts 186
AMERICAN RIVER FLOOD CONTROL DISTRICT ACT— 1927 193
CENTRAL CALIFORNIA IRRIGATION DISTRICT AND TULE LAKE
IRRIGATION DISTRICT 197
SACRAMENTO PORT DISTRICT 202
COMMENTS ON THE CALIFORNIA WATER DEPARTMENT 206
SACRAMENTO RIVER WATER RIGHTS 211
COKl-SNTS ON THE LEGAL PROFESSION 220
1. State Bar Examination
2. The State Bar 223
3. Loyalty Oath for Attorneys
if.. Ethical Problems 227
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5. Appointments of Judges 23lj
6. Trials 238
7. Stephen W. Downey's Most Significant Cases 21^7
8. Office Organization of Downey, Brand, Seymour
and Rohwer 2lj.9
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9. Charity Work 263
COMMENTS ON POLITICS 266
1. A Supporter of Hiram Johnson 266
2. Sheridan Downey, United States Senator 267
3. Contact with California Governors 279
i|_. United States Senators Thomas Kuchel and William
Knowland 283
CIVIC WORK 289
APPENDIX 296
1. Further Biographical Information 296
a. Childhood in Leramie 296
b. Children 30i|.
2. List of Major Cases for the Reclamation Board 307
3. Kr. Downey's Three Most Significant Cases 308
PARTIAL INDEX 311
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BIOGRAPHICAL
Parents and Childhood
Downey: I was born In Laramie, Wyoming, in 1886. My
father was Stephen W. Downey. He was from
Maryland. There were six men in the office
studying law and three went in the Union Army
and three into the Confederate Army. He was a
private and became a colonel in the Union Army.
Then he came to Wyoming in 186? and settled there.
Baura: Why did your father come to Wyoming?
Downey: I don't know. I think he was always an adventurer
at heart and Wyoming was the frontier. It may
have been due to other reasons I don't know about.
He was in the office of Col. Thomas of Maryland
at that time. Thomas was a controversial figure.
He was one of the men who favored the Radicals
when they were trying to patch up the Civil War.
Strange to say, Thomas was very much a Radical.
I don't know whether father didn't agree with him
or what it was, but anyway he came out west. He
was a visionary, pie in the sky.
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Baum: Did he intend to continue aa an attorney in
Wyoming?
Downey: Yes, but of course, getting out there he immediately
began to get into prospecting, gold mining. I
think he put down the first oil well ever put down
in Wyoming. Nobody believed there was oil there
then. It wasn't until long after Father's death
that they ever found any. That was the type of
man he was. He wasn't very cautious and conserva
tive or shrewd. He was a dreamer and a poet.
Mother was born in England. Father was of Irish
extraction and Mother was Welsh. Mother came to
Wyoming from England, across the prairie by prairie
schooner, fought the Indians, or at least ran
away from the Indians to keep from fighting them,
Bsum: What was her father's occupation?
Downey: I don't know much about him. Her father was Welsh.
Mother's mother was converted to Mormonisra and
came out from England to Join the Mormon Church in
Salt Lake City. It was wild then. Mother was
Just a baby in arms. Apparently her mother didn't
like the Mormon Church at that time. She didn't
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Downey:
like polygamy. She became an apostate and was
driven to Idaho and then to Wyoming where she
settled with ray mother. Of course, the Mormom
Church then was very different than it Is now.
Mother and Father were married in Laramie; we
had a big family. There were twelve of us. I
lived in Wyoming until I went to college. Father
was quite prominent in the state. He was supposed
to b e a lawyer but he thought it was more alluring
to get out and find gold. He never found any.
Did he go in for business ventures or did he go
out prospecting himself?
He prospected. They found a vein there, a very
famous vein in that part of the country called the
Centennial Vein, in 18?6, the year of the centennial.
It seemed to be a very rich vein of gold and silver.
Actually they sold it for a very substantial sum and
then the vein played out, a pocket. So Father re
funded the money. They've never found that vein
since. People are still looking for It.
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Baum:
Downey
He lost a lot of money in mining ventures.
Mother was really the one in the family who kept
things together and kept things going on. Father
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was one of those men everyone loved. He didn't have
a financial success. He had a very adventurous
career.
A thing we like to think about, he was the
father of the University of Wyoming. That was
located at Laramie. That's where we lived so all
of us got an education for awhile anyway. I think
probably Father is most known for that, although
he did many things.
I read that he was a delegate to Congress from
Wyoming Territory.
Yes, and to show you how visionary he was, he intro
duced a bill and his supporting speech was in blank
verse. There must he thousands of words there, there
are some beautiful lines too. That created quite a
sensation. Some of the papers made fun of him and
some were quite serious about it, but there was a lot
of publicity on it at that time. I wasn't born yet,
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Baum:
Downey:
but I've read some of his clippings. The funny
thing about it was that the bill itself was to make
paintings of the life of our Savior at the national
capital which now has been done, I think, to some
degree, but nothing was done about it at that time.
Mother was a woman of tremendous energy, and
will power. Father had his financial troubles.
Mother was quite a china painter. When conditions
got too rough she'd paint china. I remember quite
distinctly that Father was very sick before hia
death and our financial troubles were heavy at that
time. I remember Mother painting the china to pay
the doctor's bill. We used to call her "the little
Napoleon."
Before your father's death, was the family poor, or
well off?
It depended on Father's fortunes. Very poor sometimes,
undoubtedly. I never knew that. But generally we
lived well, beyond our means, but we got along. It
was a happy family. But Mother was always on the bit,
you know, locking out for everything. She had to
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be frugal.
Baum: How many brothers and sisters did you have?
Downey: There were four boys and there were six girls. Then
there were two half sisters. Father was married
twice. His first wife died right after the Civil
War before he came out to Wyoming. And Mother took
over these two, she raised them all, so she had
twelve.
Baum: Where did you come in this order?
Downey: I was ninth. I was pretty well down the line.
And then Father died and that left Mother with the
whole family to take cere of. I was only sixteen
and I had three sisters younger than I. One of them
was only about two years old and the other was about
four or five years old.
Baum: Then who supported the family?
Downey: Oh, Mother. Well, I had an older brother who was
then in partnership with Father in the law business
and I had an older sister. She was a brilliant girl.
She was teaching at the University of Wyoming. She
became the head of the Psychological Department there.
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She really had a brilliant record in science and
literature. She was starred in Who's Who JLn Science
and wrote articles in the Encyclopedia Britannica.
She inherited Father's mastery of words.
They were earning money and all of us began to
help. I used to have some cows and sell milk; I made
money with milk. Everybody did a little work.
Mother was the leader all the time, she carried the
banner .
Baum: What were the schools like in Laramie?
Downey: Like any other country schools. We had the big, red
brick schoolhouse, the only school there. After we
got through high school, we could take preparatory
work at the University and then do collegiate work
at the University. In my case I went through the
public school and did preparatory work at the Univer
sity and for a short time in the collegiate depart
ment. I didn't graduate from the University. I
wanted to get out and be doing something. I could
get admitted to the law school at the University of
Michigan without having my college degree.
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At school we had a lot of contacts and a lot of
fun with the other boys.
In the summer we got out and did work on the
ranches. Almost from the time I was able to do it,
I was engaged in some kind of outdoor work in the
summertime. Sometimes surveying, sometimes tie
plant work, sometimes cattle. They had a big tie
plant there .
Baum: Railroad ties?
Downey: Yes. We'd pickle the ties.
The University of Wyoming had a museum where
they stored the fossils that were dug up around there
That was a great country for paleontologists. Three
summers I dug up brontosaurus, some little bones and
a good many of the larger bones. I remember we got
so much a month. We'd camp out. There was a quarry
where we were uncovering the bones of these animals.
We'd take them up in plaster of Paris casts and haul
them down by horse to the University. There are some
very famous specimens there. That had the lure of
adventure, uncovering these fossils.
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University of Michigan Law School
Baton: Why did you decide to be an attorney?
Downey: Well, Sheridan and I both liked the speaking and all
the things that we thought went with the law.
Baum: Sounds like you visualized yourself as a trial lawyer?
Downey: Exactly. My idea was to be a trial lawyer.
Baum: Why did you select the University of Michigan?
Downey: In those days Harvard a nd Michigan were outstanding.
Baum: Had your oldest brother gone to Michigan?
Downey: No, he stayed right there in Laramie, went into
Father's office and picked it up from there.
And Sheridan and I wanted to get out and see
the world by that time. We knew we had to get some
where away from Laramie and Michigan had a preat lure
to us because of the football team and because it
was an outstanding legal institution. So we both de
cided to go there together and we did.
We had to do a little work on the outside to
get some money to help Mother out. We paid most of
our own expenses. So Mother wanted to know how much
we were paying for board and lodging. "Why, I can
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take the whole family back there and give them an
education for that." And she did. She came back
and we paid her then. That brought the opportunity
to my sisters to attend the University at Ann Arbor.
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We called that "Mother's Hergira." I don't remember
if she stayed there a year or two years.
Baum: What kind of work did you and your brother do to
support yourselves there?
Downey: I think I did surveying work and this fossil work
in the summertime. We loved to work on the ranches
near Laramie.
Baum: What sort of an education did you get in the law
school at Michigan?
Downey: Purely legal.
Baum: You had no outside classes?
Downey: Well, football practice, and we'd go to the football
games .
Baum: I take it you were very interested in athletics.
Downey: Oh, I was, I was tremendously interested. Of course,
we did a lot of the outside collegiate work at the
University. We were having a fight there about the
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control of athletics. So I went on the Athletic
Board of Control. Non-fraternity men generally did
not get elected. That was quite an election. Those
posts are very much coveted. When I got t-irough
with that the regents weren't satisfied with our
handling of the athletic situation so they fired us
all. But I had a lot of fun there.
Baum: Were you active in student affairs?
Downey: Yes.
Baum: Did you have to do as much homework as the legal
students seem to now?
Downey: It was plenty hard, all right. I think we did, but
there were a lot of the college activities that more
or less centered around the work you were doing and
the professional courses. There was the debating
society, toastmasters' club, the barristers' club.
There were a lot of them.
Baum: Did you participate in all these things?
Downey: I tried to.
Baum: And your brother also?
Downey: I think so. I say he and I went together. As a
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matter of feet he was in the class ahead of me.
But we lived together in the same building. Yes,
I'd say he participated about the same extent as I
did. We had the Rocky Mountain Club.
Baum: Did you have a chance to join any fraternities or
social organizations at Michigan?
Downey: Many social organizations, but that was another
thing, I was one of these anti-fraternity guys there.
I was always kind of a Bolshevik. There was a fight
at the University of Michigan at that time between
the independents and the fraternity men. So I was
what they called "a barbarian," an independent.
Those things don't mean a thing in the world to me
now. So I didn't join a fraternity.
Baum: Do you feel that was a loss to ycu in contacts?
Downey: No, I don't think so. I think my contacts were very,
very rich. I've never been able to go back to
Michigan for any of the reunions, but those friend
ships were very dear.
Baum: In your law school training did you have any
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practical training?
Downey: None at all. I think we had one moot case, that's
all.
Baum: You didn't do any outside work in law offices?
Downey: No, I was too busy wanting to get out in the country
to work on some matter where I could get some money.
No. I should have done that.
Baum: I was wondering what you thought of your son's train
ing. He's a recent attorney.
Downey: He certainly came into this office and had no trouble
at all like I had when I began. He's a graduate of
Stanford. I think that's probably due to better
training now. I think I knew the fundamental princi
ples of law, constitutional limitations, for example.
Baum: How valuable did you think that was to you later on,
your fundamental principles?
Downey: Oh, very valuable. When you got into the cases
that involved more important questions, it was highly
important to have that background. I'm sure I got
along very well after I got through some of the rou
tine of a law office. I liked any case that presented
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a big problem, I enjoyed the principles of law in
volved. I had a lot of theoretic training in
Michigan.
Baum: Did it take you very long to learn those routine
things? How long until you were valuable?
Downey: I think I became valuable in about a year. But I
think I had less practical experience than most
young boys had. In Laramie you didn't know much
about business.
Baum: Were there any professors at the University of
Michigan who especially impressed you?
Downey: Yes. I was very close to Professor Bates, I think
he acted as the president of the university later.
He was the dean of the law school too, I know.
There were a number of earlier distinguished
Michigan men who were not there at that time. Cooley
was one of the great legal authorities and we studied
his work on taxation and the Constitution and other
things .
I had a professor of elocution, Professor
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Trueblood. I always liked him. He conditioned
me in elecution. We always thought It was quite
a Joke. At that time I was one of the varsity de
baters. Sheridan was too.
Baum: Were the students interested in politics or social
issues?
Downey: Yes. I think every man attending law school had an
Idea he had to get into politics.
Baum: Did they Join student political clubs?
Downey: Yes. They liked to run for class offices, you know.
We used to think we had to be politicians.
Baum: On the campus? Campus politicians?
Downey: Yes, campus politicians.
Baura: Was there any interest in national politics?
Downey: Yes, we ere very interested in that. We had a num
ber of very distinguished speakers at our student
forum and you could get in on that and meet them.
You came into contact with a great many national
celebrities at that time. Lincoln Steffens. William
Jennings Bryan. Gompers, LaPollette, etc. You didn't
know them well. Maybe talk to them at a meeting.
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Baum:
Downey:
A cocktail affair. I don't remember if we had
cocktails affairs then. We went to the saloons
often enough. But you meet them, that's about all
you can say. Of course, ycu're impressed sometimes
by their speech. We had some very remarkable speeches
there. One I remember of Bob LaPollette's. We
were in all that more or less by reason of our con
tact with the law school.
Were you and your brother very close?
Yes, we were very close.
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First Job - An Attorney with Devlin and Devlin
Downey: On rraduation from law school I was pioing to Nevada
because I had been in Nevada surveying. I thought
I might be United States senator there, among other
things.
Baum: You were an awfully young man tote thinking of be-
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coming a senator.
Downey: Yes. Thet didn't bother me then. I might have con
sidered being President of the United States. I've
learned a lot of things since I've gotten older, but
let me say to you because you're a young woman, there's
nothing like youth, energy. I don't like to get old.
I haven't any philosophy for getting old.
Baum: Age has the wisdoi , the know-how.
Downey: Well, I sometimes wonder if we're as wise as we think
we are. But the world was no bother to me at all at
the time I graduated from college.
Baum: Were you planning to set up your law practice in
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Nevada?
Downey: I was going to Goldfield, Nevada. I had been at
Rhyolite and Bull Frog and Tonopah and Las Vegas-then-
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you wouldn't believe it. Rhyolite is right on the
Amargosa Desert near Death Valley. They are all
of them pretty barren, but anyway there was a lure
to them. I wouldn't want to go back there now any
more than I'd want to go back to Wyoming. When you
could get into anything you wanted besides getting
stock in a gold mine, it waa well worthwhile. I
just stayed there long enough to see that the country
was broke. Then I managed to beat my way to California,
partly by freight.
Baum: Why did you choose California?
Downey: It was on my way. I never had any intention of going
to California originally.
Baum: You had no friends here?
Downey: I didn't know a soul in California. California wasn't
too far from Nevada so I came to San Francisco. I
hunted up one of my old class mates there and he said
he'd heard somebody up in Sacramento was advertising
for a lawyer. So Ij came to Sacramento and asked this
man, Devlin, for a Job. The firm of Devlin and Devlin
was the large firm then.
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Bill Devlin, one of the members of the firm,
was the man I talked to. He was a very nice fellow,
rather pompus. He said, "Young man, what do you
know about our titles here? What do you know about
the Sutter title?" I didn't kncrw anything about
titles. "Well, you've got to know some of these
things." I said, "Well, I know about Constitutional
limitations."
He said, "Well, I'll tell you what I'll do.
I'll give you fifty dollars a month. You can sit
in that back room there."
I said, "All right, but I want five dollars in ad
vance." He said, "Well, you talk to the cashier out
there and see if she'll give you five dollars." So
that was that interview.
I went out and talked to the cashier. There I
was getting somewhere because she was a very pretty
blonde girl and I thought I could talk to her all
right. So I said, "I'd like five dollars in advance.
Mr. Devlin said I cculd come into his office." She
pulled out the drawer and gave me five dollars.
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
So then I sat In that back office for I don't
know how long waiting for somebody to talk to me and
nobody did. Then one Sunday Devlin came down and
saw me and after that I had no worry about not work
ing. But every raise I got there I really had to work
for it. Seventy-five dollars a month, finally I got
up to a hundred and twenty-five dollars a month and
he said, "That's all. We don't go any higher then
that."
So then I went out by myself. I had the satis
faction a few years later of having him come to me
and offer me a partnership with him going in on a
combination of two firms. By that time, I preferred
my own work.
You said that when you took this first job you didn't
know anything about law. How did you learn?
Matters kept coming to you and you had to learn.
Did you sit in that back room and read old cases?
I couldn't even read cases. I have to laugh. In
attaching property there are certain things you have
to execute right away and there's always a summary
proceeding. You have to do it right away, somebody's
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in a hurray to get somebody's property attached be
fore they can take it away. So shortly after they
had begun to give me some work there, somebody came
into the office one Saturday morning and wanted an
attachment. There was nobody there on a Saturday
morning, just myself. Heavens, I didn't know what
to do about an attachment, but I got out a lot of
forms that were there. Of course, I tcok the case.
I noticed the forms read that "whereas
Judge of the Superior Court, has set his hand and
seal." It isn't a paper to be signed by the Judge
at all, it's a paper to be signed by the clerk of
the ccurt, it just says "in witness thereof "
It's a ridiculous thing, but it's the way those
forms are made out. So I got all these papers to
gether and went over to see the judge and asked him
to sign the paper. He said, "Why, I don't sign that
paper." I said, "Well, it says here..." All I
knew was what it said on the form, (laughter) Of
course, he had a right to get irritated about that,
but he signed it in the blank there. He and I
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talked about that years later. So that's the way
it went.
Baum: What kind of Jobs did you handle when you were
working for Devlin and Devlin?
Downey: Devlin and Devlin had a v ery big practice even
for those days. I got just the work they got.
Estates. I did a great deal of corporate work at
that time. I assisted them in a greet many trials.
I helped Bob Devlin get out a new edition of
Devlin on Deeds.
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Private Practice — In Partnership with John P. Pullen
Downey: Then I opened up practice with John P. Fallen in
1911 about June. We had a lot of fun practicing
law.
Baum: What was his background?
Downey: He was from Auburn. He later became Presiding
Justice of the District Court of Appeals. A man
with a wonderful personality. Everyone liked Jack
Pullen. He had been raised in the state and he had
some contacts here. He was -'aised and went to school
in Auburn.
The two of us got out and we got business all
right.
Baum: Was he a young man about your age?
Downey: No, he was a little older than I, not much.
Close enough so we were pals.
Baum: And he had worked for Devlin and Devlin too?
Downey: No, he had worked for some other firm here. We
went into partnership and then my brother came
along later, in 19l£ I think.
The cases we got were the cases a young lawyer
gets if you have a lot of energy and not much money.
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Baum:
Downey:
We started out with a bank account of fifty dollars
Shortly after, the bank called up and fortunately
they got Pullen on the phone instead of me and
said, "Your account is overdrawn." He said, "My
goodness, I must have made a mistake in addition
or subtraction." (laughter) Well, we had many
such cases of mistakes in addition or subtraction.
We didn't have any books in those days. If
some money came in, we put It in the old safe
that Jack's father left him and if you wanted some
money you'd go to the safe and take out a dollar or
two ( if you could find them) and put down an
I.O.U. and by and by the box got all filled up
with I.C.I. 's and then we'd sit down some Saturday
afternoon and I'd find an I.O.U. he gave for $5
and he'd find one I gave for $5 and we'd cancel
them and throw them away. Finally, we'd get
tired of that and go out and have a beer.
We were just two young lawyers, two kids.
What kind of work came in for you?
I*
Most anything. We had to kind of stimulate it a
little bit. We had a few damage cases that a young
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
lawyer can usually get if he wants to try the
case. They weren't automobile cases. They
were cases involving master and servant. You can
get them and then if you settle them for good
prices or if you try them and g et good results
you get some more of them.
We got along. It was a rather inferior grade
law business. We said if we ever got hard up one
of us would go out and work and the other would
stay and practice law and the man \4io worked would
support the firm, but we never had to do that,
Then, of course, things got better, we g ot more
business.
Then came the war.
Did the war help your business?
Well, I went in right from the start, I went right
to the first officers' training camp in May 191?.
Did Mr. Pullen go in or did he keep up the firm?
He couldn't pass the physical. Then, when I got
gack from the war, Sheridan had come into the
firm by that time and things were pretty well
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Entrance into Water Work
Baum: I wondered how you got started on water law.
Downey: When I was in Devlin's office they had a preat
deal of work involvinp reclamation districts. That
was "fighting the wolves," as we used to say, fight
ing the flood waters. I got interested in that there,
Way back about the time I left that office I was
looking to the Reclamation Board having a lawyer to
represent them at that time. I just thought that
would be nice work to have.
Baum: Had you specialized in water within Devlin and
Devlin's office?
Downey: No, I didn't really know anything about water then,
they had no water work and I had none until we got
to our very difficult flood control projects. After
I got with the Reclamation Board I did that work,
of course, and that became, not quite a speciality,
although it certainly tock a lot of my time. Then,
having worked there for a number of years, and I
think I made a success of that, especially in getting
the relief that was given to us by the federal
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government on flood control, they asked me to come
to Merced. That was real water work. Riparian
right cases, drainage cases. I became at that time
more and more... I don't want to say I was a special
ist, I don't think I am now. But from my work at
Merced came a 11 these other matters involving water
and I branched out. It's so heavy now I can't even
follow it.
Baum: Do you think you went into water because of chance,
or was it from an interest?
Downey: Certainly as far as the Reclamation Board was con
cerned, I went with the board because I liked what
they were doing. Really, the development of the
flood control project here in this valley and the
story that goes with it of the hydraulic mining
and all those things, that was certainly one of
the big public enterprises of that lime. When I
found I could get to act for t he board I was very
glad to get the appointment.
Baum: When you described your early interest in law it
sounded to me like you thought of yourself as a
criminal lawyer.
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Downey: We did a lot of crininal work. When ray brother
went In with us, he was a v ery brilliant trial
lawyer, no body better if he had stuck to it.
He tried many criminal cases and I tried a number
too. They weren't the criminal cases you get now
so much, they were cases generally rather sensational
in nature, attracting a lot of attention. We tried
a number of those cases, which was excellent ex
perience for trial work. I don't, of course, try
any criminal cases now and haven't for a number of
years. When I got to the Reclamation Board the
number of cases in the Appellate Court was so great
it took most of my time, I won't say all of it,
but certainly a lot of it, arguing cases on appeal.
Baum: Did you enjoy this criminal trial work?
Downey: Oh, I loved it. We had two or three rather sen
sational cases. I remember one, a woman shot her
lover. That was real dramatic. Another one, a
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wild cases. I had a number of them. Sheridan had
a great many and he loved that kind of work at that
time.
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Reorganization of the Firm
Baum: What was John Pullen1 s part in the firm?
Downey: There were John Pullen, (Jack), Sheridan, and I.
Downey, Pullen & Downey. I went to war and that
left Jack Pullen without anybody here, and Sheridan.
Sheridan got more and more into criminal work,
being associated with another lawyer here. They
had a big practice and he was making money but he
didn't like the way he was making it. Then Jack
Pullen, by the time I got back from war he decided
he wanted to go on the bench. So we had him ap
pointed Superior Judge and then later on there was
a vacancy on the District Court of Appeal and he
made the run and was elected presiding justice.
He was the type of man everybody loved. Wonderful
man. So that botched up that firm and Sheridan,
he then v. as out buying ranches and farms and or
chards and ev6rything he could buy on mortgages,
Baum: By this time both of them were out of the firm?
Downey: Well, that came just a little later as far as
Sheridan was concerned. Jack was on the bench
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for a whjle and I was so financially Involved
on some of Sheridan's paper I had to get out too.
So anyway we consolidated our firm with Dunn and
Brand--they were an established firm here—and
we took into that firm Harry B. Seymour* That
was in 1926. The result was this firm, Downey,
Brand, Seymour, & Rohwer, although that changed
a number of times through the years*
Baum: What were the advantages of consolidating?
Downey: Primarily, as far as I was concerned, I had to get
a new start here. I can't tell you how much money
1 owed. A lot. To banks. Sheridan would sign
my name on them. He was very, very generous, but
he had no sense of business. So I had to make a
fresh start.
Mr. Brand's partner had died and he wanted
to make some kind of a reorganization and we just
consolidated our two firms and went together.
Sheridan has never come b ack t o the law business*.
Marriage and a Family
Baum: When did you get married?
Downey: About 1913 » my first marriage.
cc
vlovot YlleJtonenn oa eaw I bne allrfw a iol
. otf oari I ' - > lo acrioa no
5ns flrutfl rftflw will ntro baiabilOBfloo aw ^sw^ne
bn.e— et5ri innil baclBlXdBctsa na
TjiieH ntll
^futll Rid . S^J
oBff^ rf !e tif- tircmy93 ,bn-
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?j»ni.ls^!:Ioanoo lo e -e srirf siaw ctj1
ari I ^beniaonoo eew I e« IB*! EJB t^IiiQffltti?
janom rlouin w>- ^ Ile^ cMruao I «o tedfe wan s
..tol A «&9wo
^ewoTong^ •fciev ,^nev aew ^J ,«terid no ecnan Ym
a 93iBm od- bsri I 08 .asoniaurf lo ©anae on bar! art
9; belb barf lontfT oq e'bnaia .iM
9>r •tssia3Sri09i s lc bfi-M amoa
d amiil owct r£wo becfablloenco
wsl sry os cf a nabiiodS
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32
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
How did you meet your wife?
She was my stenographer. White I was in France
she died in the flu epidemic.
And you had children by that time?
Two children.
When were they born?
Stephen, my youngest bojt was one year old when I
went to Prance in 1916. The other boy, Jack, was
about two.
Was your wife from Sacramento, a local girl?
No, she was from Iowa.
You mentioned before that when your wife died while
you were away at the war, your sister came to take
care of your two children.
Then I remarried.
Whet was your wife's maiden name?
Per sis Mclntire. She was working in the State
Library at that time, when I met her. Her
mother and father had come out here. They were
staunch Vermonters. We had many a sword to cross,
you know, on the political campaigns.
tw ii/o Y • .. - bib woH
• "- IM. BBW e
e u£t ericf ai belb grfe
^arict -^d atnh- '. $d trn^ bnA
owT
ai aw narfW
I narfw bio TR^Y ano sew jgocf cfessruroY ^m tao
• t3fo3t t^otf narf^o srfT ,dl^l' nJt 9o'nanr«I at *new
. owct ^irc
Vliip, IBOO! e to*n9meio9& ^rorrl eliw IMO^ a«W
«flwol wo«tl BBW erle toM
el.Ww b&lb sIJtw II;CY aerfw cfBri^ woled benoi^neffr woY
ocf entso led-ete i;,c^ ,i3W etftf cfe Y^WB ei^w
.netblli lo e-reo
.baiitemdi I no
••tan nabiem s'alj. v BBV
titfrrc-, . nloM
ieH .teri ct«« I nsr , '.Erf rtarfrf cts
,9*i9ri cti/o »moo bsrl isrivtBl b/ie
s ari aV; . ',te
laolrfilcq ertrf no twcrol i
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Baum:
Downey:
Downey:
Baum:
What was her father's occupation?
Her father was a kind of real estate nan and
Interested In mines and so forth. He had the
adventurer In him too, but not exactly the same
way my father had» He was more conservative.
Very scholarly. Should have been a college pro
fessor.
My wife herself was a graduate of Abbott
Academy. That's a girls' school near Boston*
She came out here shortly after her graduation.
Did she continue to work after you were married?
No. She continued t o work, but not in the same
line. She took over the two boys* Then we followed
up with two more, both girls. There was plenty to
do. Most of the time she was at home taking care
of the children. Pretty soon they all grew up,
sent to college, then Jack came in here with me.
Stephen went into the army, and is now a colonel,
and the girls got married. And now they are pretty
busy too. One of them has five children a nd another
four. Jack has eight.
Did your wife have time to be in on woman's club
?nol;: : arttal 'tad esw
3 natrr ectatfae Isei lo sew
ericf bad aH *rltfiol oe bn a.t
3xa tfon cfucf «ooc al
• evl^evncaeaoo atom cow aH .beii terfdel
ciq 93©X£oo a naacf avBri
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lo adewbBis e saw ll^sieri sllw
He -a IOOHDB 'eliig B s'cfarlT
«i»rl
973W
eoiBB 9ti3 cit
IIol &v nsiiT ^
cct Y*nelq asw ai^riT
srfe
^Icticrle
iiow otf
o ;t
owct ad* lavo ^lood- sriS .anil
elils riiod ,«iom owd- /i^iw
• ct sraorf SB RSW arle swJti »xld- lo ^f^ .ob
t if weig lie Y»J±* nooa ^^.t9ri
• art rWJtw elan' nl arces jfoaL ns; . ulloo otf
,l9j:olco B won el bits «^apia sricf ocfnl tfnew
S.s^ j-oj, aliig *>rtt boa
19.- eiblirio avll lo and .ocrf fewcf
«iii;)ie aad sfo^t .IL
cfwlo a'nejJiow no nl 9d ctf einlct avsri sllw rrirc '
:^am
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
activities or anything like that?
Ighe never did a g reat deal of that* She Is very
sociably inclined, but not a clubwoman*
Was her family Democratic?
Her parents were Republicans from Vermont. When
my brother ran as a Democrat for United States
Senator, that was a hard problem for the Mclntlres.
Finally they voted ft>r him. At least, they told
me they did. They said they'd never done that be
fore In their lives, they voted for a Democrat and
that took a lot of soul searching for them. They
were living with us right at t hat time, for quite
a number of years.
And is your wife a Republican or a Democrat?
Well, I thought she was a Democrat. Of course she
supported my brother. But I think she renlgged
a little bit the last campaign. I am pretty sure
she voted for Eisenhower in November, and I think
she did In the election before that. But I still
think she's good material f or t he Democrats*
What are your hobbies? What do you do with your
spare time?
"*Yn8
dcf lo lash cteai -1 e bib teven
. -.mcwcftrlo e *on 3vc tba
:d-Bioat!9 -.a'l
naxiW .i. .v ntcil aneo 3H ataw
aaJ-e- el dvenoc es oet nexl^oicf
.aatlctnlo arirf -ic'l irtald'otq fitarl e sew
blod1 tctaoel *A «niri icftbe^O
' *sriv lav&fl b'Tsrlj- bi . tb y»rii eat
bru> ; tol beJov Y3ri* issvil nle^ct ni etol
.:;.-,;i^ tcl pnirioi8»B I0ca 'to ctol a :
fioTt tafliJM1 igri ;r cte *rl$J:i sw rid'lw ^nlvll eiew
.8183^
t^ -j ic nsollcr a
eria estuoo 10 .^aioomad a ;:ew erie
arfe >fnlrld- I
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ei bnA
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bactioqqwe
a
I bna . ,voM ni tewodnae i3 nol oe^ov aria
I tfjoQ .^erid1 snolaef noi*oalo rtl blft aria
,a^B-' ari * 10! laiis^s-m boog e'arie tfnirf;*
rirfiw ob JJOY cb ^eriW ?eaicrffoc[ 100^; eta cteriW
eisqa
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35
Downey: Well, I used to ride horseback a good deal. The
children all rode horseback. It was a family
affair for us. Stephen was quite a polo player and
steeplechaser. I had a number of accidents. I
broke pretty near everything. It was the only time
I was ever laid up. I broke my head and I broke ay
back and I broke my collarbone. So finally they
said, "We're not going to pay any more accident
damages for horseback riding,11 and they cancelled
my accident policy, so I quit riding.
But the whole family rode. It was the topic
of conversation at the table everyday.
Baum: Did you keep up any of your other athletics?
Downey: Well, I have done a good deal of walking. I don't
play golf, though. I played tennis up to a number
of years ago. Now, when I get out it's generally
walking. But I used to walk seven or eight miles
in a day, and I'd take long we Iks in the summertime.
We used to walk every summer from here up to Lake
Tahoe, then around the lake, Jack Pullen and myself.
I don't do that anymore.
Baum: Did you have time to join any service clubs?
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Downey: Oh, I belong to Rotary, and the Sutter Club and
Grange, but I haven't been a joiner.
Baum: You said your father spent a lot of time reading.
Was that a hobby with your family too?
Downey: I used to do a great deal of reading, but the last
few years there's too much television on.
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CALIFORNIA STATE BOARD OP RECLAMATION
Formation of the Sacramento-San Joaquin
Drainage District
Baum: Getting back to your legal career in water work, I
think you went to the Reclamation Board in 1923 as
their attorney.
Downey: Yes, I'm quite sure it was 1923«
Baum: I wonder if you could fill me in a little bit on
the background of the Reclamation Board and the
Sacramento-San Joaquin Drainage District before
that date.
Downey: The reason for the formation of the Reclamation
Board was the devastating floods that had occurred
in 190? and 1909. The 1907 flood was the one we
call our "project flood", that's the flood according
to which we have made all our plans.
Baum: That was the biggest one?
Downey: There certainly was a bigger one of the Feather
River last winter and there have been from time to
time in certain sections of the river floods that
exceeded it, but we think of the 1907 flood as the
"project flood." We all think that way back in 1862
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there was still a bigper flood, but accurate records
are not available.
Baum: Were you here in 1909T
Downey: Yes, I had Just come out to California. I went to
work in the law office where they were dealing with
many problems concerning the 1909 flood such as form
ing reclamation districts, building the west levee
of Sutter Butte, by pass Project Mumber 6 and the
east levee of District Number lf>00, and steps that
were being taken by the landowners to try to meet
those flood conditions, etc.
Then in 1910 the California Debris Commission,
a misleading name because it is really a federal
commission which had been set up way back in 1893 to
take care of the damage done under hydraulic mining,
rendered this report which aimed at setting up a
coordinated plan that would take care of floods, re
store the navigability of the river which had been
damaged by hydraulic mining, and enable the lands to
be reclaimed under conditions that the property owners
could bear. That recommended that the work be done
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at a cost of one -third to the state, and one-third
to the federal government, and one -third to the
property owners. It was estimated then at thirty-
three million dollars. I hate to tell you how much
it has cost since then. There had been a number of
other projects discussed. There had been a project,
the Dabney Plan, called the "main river project"
under which from an engineer's point of view you
Just take care of the floods in one way, through
the river itself. Then, there was the "by-pass
project", which was the "Orunsky project." Of course,
the engineers had been working on this for a long
time. This by-pass project contemplated that there
would be passes which would really be auxiliary
rivers and they would take care of the excess water
under flood conditions. That was the plan finally
approved by the California Debris Commission.
The United States was interested in the naviga
tion of the river although it's not an interstate
river.
Baum: That was the only thing the federal government was
interested in in those days, wasn't it?
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Downey: Well, we argued that there were lot* of other
things that they should be Interested in, but they
were primarily concerned with the navigation of the
Sacramento River. The state was interested in that
too. It was an important artery of commerce.
'•> '-* -? * *
At that time there was no national policy re
specting flood control. That came about in 1936.
Baum: You say Devlin and Devlin were handling the
reclamation district work,
Downey: Yes, they had by far the biggest reclamation practice
in the Sacramento Valley at that time.
Baum: Did they have anything to do with the adoption of
this report?
Downey: Yes. But I wasn't up that high at that time. I
was one of the privates, so to speak. That date of
the report is 1910 and then Hiram Johnson called the
legislature into special session in 1911 and the re
port was approved by the state of California.
Baum: Were you aware of any opposition at that time?
Downey: No, not at that time. I think everybody in the state
generally was for it. We ran into a lot of trouble
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at a later time, but right at that time the state
was for it, Johnson was for it, it seemed to be an
answer to our very bad problem there.
Then, the next step was for Congress to take
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some action and that was trouble right away.
Baum: Where did the Reclamation Board come in?
Downey: They were created in 1913. They were set up, a
small board to start with, for the purpose of carry
ing out this report and also to ?, et some kind of a
control agency that reclamation districts would
have to follow. For example, one reclamation district
would build a levee and its neighbor would build a
higher levee. It was just like pushing the vagrants
back and forth from one city to another. There was
no overriding power.
Baum: One levee would damage the neighboring lands?
Downey: That's right. A levee on one side of the river would
force the water onto the other side of the river.
It was a very unhappy situation.
The law at that time was that any man could re
claim aralnst flood waters, they were wild wolves and
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you shut them off if you could. If you shut them
off onto somebody else's land, that was tough luck
for them, but it was the law of self-preservation.
Baum: Were the reclamation districts to be required to get
an okey from the Reclamation Board?
Downey: Yes, they couldn't raise their levees without going
to the Reclamation Board. That's a l&ng, long story
but today what the Reclamation Board generally does
is to follow the adopted flood control plan in de-
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termining whether people should be permitted to raise
their levees at all.
Efforts to Get Federal Funds for Flood Control
In 1917 the Reclamation Board went back to
Washington to try to get the United States to assume
one -third of the costs of the plan.
Baum: Did the board go back?
Downey: Some of the members did. One very a ctlve member at
that time was V. S. McClatchy, the brother of C. K.
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ington and many of the details of that are unknown,
but they finally succeeded in getting a bill through
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Downey:
Congress in which Congress assumed $5, 600,000. That
was to be confined to opening the mouth of the river
and the construction of wiers, assumed to be the
navigation benefits. The total cost of the project
was estimated at thirty-three million at that time,
but the United States had no intention of assuming
a third of that cost*
Was this because they felt that part of that was not
for navigation and therefore out of their realm?
It undoubtedly was. There were two or three reports
on that. One by the Board of Engineers of Rivers
and Harbors set forth that the interests of the
federal government was purely in the navigation end
of it and that any contribution it made should be
limited to the navigation feature. The board said
that flood control was for Congress.
That was no solution at all but there was one
important thing about it. In passing that legislation
in 191? Congress made it a part of the Mississippi
Flood Control Bill. We had never been bracketed with
the Mississippi and we always felt that we weren't
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Downey:
fairly treated. In fact, practically no rivers in
the country were given any consideration at all, but
the Mississippi had so much commerce and so many
Congressmen and I have no doubt they had many reasons
that weren't applicable in California. But the
Mississippi Bill in 1917, Section One, dealt with
the Mississippi and Section Two with the Sacramento.
I had nothing to do with that but I knew about it.
We are the only river bracketed with the Mississippi
and we are now trying to get other things the
Mississippi gets.
The bill provided more for the Mississippi than
for the Sacramento?
Oh yes, we never got in on any such appropriations
as that. Now we're trying to get the stabilization
of our banks along the lines of the appropriations
for the Mississippi and we haven't got that yet.
Then, we thought we could work well with Major
Grant, the grandson of the great Grant, a very, very
fine man. He's now a major general. So we went to
Congress and asked to have this plan resurveyed.
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That was done and that work came to Grant.
Baum: Was he on the California Debris Commission?
Downey: Yes, he was the executive officer, what we called
the District Engineer, in San Francisco at that
time. Since, they have moved up here to Sacramento.
Of course, our theory was that this whole
thing had bogged down financially. The plan
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was all right, but the costs were not divided
properly. So we had to get this report from Grant.
That involved all kinds of work. I was a kind of
go-between there between the Reclamation Board and
Grant.
Baum: What sort of work?
Downey: I suppose liason mainly, Just trying to get the
view of the landowners and of the Reclamation Board
before him. We had all kinds of figures showing
that with what the landowners had put in in reclama
tion districts on their own levees and with what they
would be assessed, it was Just wiping them out. The
whole valley faced bankruptcy. Whether we stated it
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thought that way then and I still feel that way now.
Baum: Was Major Grant's problem in this respect to come
up with a favorable financial apportionment..,.
Downey: That's what we wanted.
Baura: It wasn't an engineering problem?
Downey: There were some engineering problems, but not too
difficult. Oh yes, he was a very good engineer.
Well, in 1925, he came up with the Grant Report
which is really the foundation of everything that has
been done since, on our flood control project here
in California. And he — there were some changes he
recommended — but the big thing was that the federal
government would assume a third of the cost. Then
he went on to say that while the federal government
should assume a third of the cost, they should keep
very distinct the work that had to be done by the
federal government so a s not to become involved in
the financial problems of the Reclamation Board which
were very heavy at that time. That has since been
changed to a great degree.
Then we went back to Washington. In fact, we
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were there several times. We had to get the approval
of the Flood Control Committee of Congress.
Baum: Who went back?
Downey: There were several of us, the chairman of the Recla
mation Board, Al Spencer; Mr. Bernard A. Etcheverry,
my dear friend, went back with us.
Baum: He wasn't on the board?
Downey: No. He had been engaged in the levying of these
assessments. Colonel Barton, the manager of the
board, and several others. We made a number of
trips, I don't remember just how many. We were
entertained very graciously by Mrs. Frederick Dent
Grant, the mother of Major Grant, and I think as
charming a woman as I've ever met.
We finally got the matter heard before the
Flood Control Committee of Congress and Charley Curry,
our Congressman at that time, vouched for the bill.
General Taylor, who was then the Chief of Engineers
in Washington, testified very strongly against this
legislation. That's almost disastrous as a rule
because they follow the recommendations of the Chief
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pretty largely. And Grant testified in favor of the
report. That was a most unusual thing. Nobody, I
think, could have done it and got by with it except
Major Grant. He had a high reputation. The Board
of Engineers of Rivers and Harbors had rather been
against us too and that's almost fatal too, in these
matters. They passed on all these projects. They
rendered an opinion at first very much adverse to us.
Then we went back there again and got them to hear us
again and they still weren't for us, but they said
something like this; it never had been the policy
of the federal government to appropriate money for
flood control and that if that was the intent of
Congress, Congress should express that intent. In
other words, they passed the buck back to Congress,
which was better for us than turning us down as they
first did.
Baum: It seems strange to me that the Engineers wouldn't
be glad to expand their operations into the area
of flood control.
Downey: Maybe they were, but they didn't want to make a
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Downey!
recommendation for an appropriation which was really
in a seruie for flood control. They knew that once
flood control was opened up as an obligation of the
federal government all these rivers in the country
would want flood control. And that helped us also
when we came to Congress because there were a great
many people there who wanted to get appropriations
for some river in their own state. There was a lot
of opposition to it too. But you can see it was
really a question of national policy there and the
Board of Engineers of Rivers and Harbors said, "We'd
better leave that to Congress."
When you made your request did you openly say this
was for flood control or did you pretend it was for
navigation?
Well, we talked about hydraulic mining and said it
was all due to hydraulic mining. As a matter of fact
flood control and navigation tied in.
The federal government had recognized its responsi
bility for hydraulic mining.
They hadn't stopped it until later. Yes, the state
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courts let ut go on too, but the federal government
just hadn't stopped it. That was the big thing. I
talked hydraulic mining until I was blue in the face
sometimes.
Baum: That was the crux of your argument?
Downey: Well, I would say that, and the fact that the land
owners couldn't bear the costs of the assessments.
I might say that we first went to the state
legislature again and we said, "We went you to approve
now this new Grant Report in which we affirmed just
what you did in 1911." The legislation of 1911 wasn't
anything near as strong as what we put to them in
1925. We said, "Now, it's a very simple matter here.
You just agree to put up your one-third of the cost
and the federal government will put up its third of
the cost. If we can convince Coolidge and all the
congressmen from all over the United States that this
is a good thing, you ought to approve it." And that
was a hot fight too.
We had sessions. The legislature met in a
committee of the whole, both the Senate and the Rouse,
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and we had a full opportunity to present our case
and we got that legislation through. It was
contingent on the federal government's acceptance
though.
Baum: Was the southern part of the state aeainst it?
Downey: No, a s I remember there were very few dissenting
votes In the legislature. We had a number of
matters there that we had to work with the southern
part of the state in connection with it. It wasn't
near as hard in the state as it was in the federal
government.
Baum: Did getting the state to approve this require that
you sort of trade votes for other projects in other
parts of the state?
Downey: We didn't on that particular matter, but there had
been. There had been an appropriation made for
three million dollars before this to assist in the
financing of Assessment Number 6 and we then also
voted for three million dollars for the southern
part of the state. There's the usual amount of
trading, but I don't remember any trade in connection
with this matter, although there may have been in
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Downey:
their minds that maybe they'd want something
sometime.
Anyway, lots of people voted for it. I suppose
they said, "Well, the federal government will never
approve this." That was in 1925.
The big fight came in Congress. We finally got
thst through in 1928 and that also was a bill for
the Mississippi and the Sacramento together. The
way it reads is that Congress approves the Grant
Report and such changes and recommendations as may
be made. I don't think many members of Congress
fully realized what they were getting into. They
should have. There was no concealment at all. And
Coolidge, of all men, approved it.
Had he given you any support before that?
No. He knew about the measure. Of course, Coolidge
was not a man to approve anything like the expenditures
that have been made in recent years. It was long be
fore the days when you could go back to Washington
and get money. I think ours was first big measure
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of that kind as far as I know. And we didn't get
an appropriation or anything very substantial at
first.
Baum: But the federal government had agreed to one-third?
Downey: They had. There have been many, many changes since
this was approved, generally in the way of getting
more money or showing that the estimates were low.
I don't know how much money has been poured into
that project since that time but it's tremendous.
The state then would always match the federal govern
ment. Whether the landowners are bearing a full third
of the cost now I don't know. But they've put in
plenty of money and this saved their lives.
Refinancing the Assessments
Well, after we got this legislation what were
we going to do with this money the federal government
was going to give us? Theywere obligated to pay one
half the cost of future levees which meant appropria
tions from time to time, and that was all right. They
were also to re turn, and this was in some respects the
most amazing thing about this legislation, to the
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state the money which the state had contributed
for opening the mouth of the river fmnd the construc
tion of weirs, which was a very substantial amount
of money. The federal government had appropriated
originally $5>»600,000 for that and the state had
matched that appropriation. That had to be returned
to the state in the process of evening up these
various costs.
Then we had to determine what to 3o with that.
I don't know of any case like that. . .You've heard
about the Jackel in Kipling, something like "September
was t he jackel born, a storm came in October. Such
a storm as this, he said, I never can remember."
(laughter)
But to return money to the state, really for the pur-
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pose of refunding that money to the landowners was
certainly unusual. Then we had to try to work out
so a s to refinance these assessments and that was a
headache, purely technical. Not very interesting,
but it had to be done.
Baum: In other words, you had to get this money from the
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state applied to the assessments that were due from
the landowners?
Downey: Yes, and in the meantime some of the landowners had
paid their a ssessments. You couldn't very well re
fund them the money that way, not all of them anyway.
Baum: Had many landowners lost their lands by this time be
cause of assessments?
Downey: Not while I was attorney for the Reclamation Board.
Baum: You never foreclosed?
Downey: No, I didn't.
Baum: Were most of them in arrears? Delinquent?
Downey: Well, the assessments hadn't gone quite that far.
For example, in the Number 6 assessment, that had
been very bitterly contested. They had to set up a
special court of three Judges to hear those assessment
objections. The feeling was so intense at that time.
That required a lot of trial work in the Superior Court
and then on appeal and then appeal to the Supreme Court.
So the assessments hadn't actually gotten to the point
where you could have foreclosed.
Baum: Were individual assessments being contested, or the
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whole right to assess the lands?
Downey: Generally speaking the landowners Joined together
and employed attorneys who represented most of the
people who had any point to put up in the assessment.
I had to defend the assessments, not a very nice
thing to do.
Baura: What was the objection? I know people don't like
to pay assessments, but you can't use that in a
court case.
Downey: This applies on only one assessment, but the state
had built the West Levee of the Sutter By-pass which
brought the water in that area down into the Sutter
By-pass. When thatves built originally by Reclama
tion District 1^00 it was bitterly contested by the
people on the other side of the by-pass. That's the
famous case of Grey against Reclamation District 15>00,
which held that lf>00 could build its own levee even
though the effect was to throw the water over onto
the east side of the by-pass. Then when the State
Reclamation Board came into the picture it took over
the West Levee of the Sutter By-pass and so the people
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Baum:
Downey:
on the east side maintained that they were entitled
to have a levee built on their side, which was ulti
mately done, at the expense of the Board of Reclama
tion. They had a lot of points there. Then the
people on the west side said they were being over-
assessed because the east side had a levee built
without contribution from the people on the east side.
There were hundreds of questions like that. There
were individual cases too.
By the time the Supreme Court got to it, they
upheld the assessments, and then they began filing
new suits to enjoin the collection. I rather favored
them as long as I could. I had to fight the litiga
tion and I did, but I knew that the United States
and the State of California should take more of their
share of the apportionment.
Then you were in charge of fighting these suits for
the Reclamation Board to collect the assessments
which you felt were unfair?
Etcheverry was my main witness on that. We went along
together. Yes, the assessments were all approved in
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the end, but not paid except a small amount.
Baum: That must have been rather unpleasant for you.
Downey: Well, it was unpleasant because my sympathy was
with them, but I kept maintaining that the thing
to do was to get this law changed so that the
federal government and the state would contribute
their share of the costs and we did that too.
Baum: What other kinr's of work did you do for the
Reclamation Board?
Downey: Then we had to refinance all the assessments. A
few of the people who had paid had paid in warrants.
They had bought their w arrant s at a very substantial
discount, fifty cents on the dollar. So it only
cost them say fifty cents on the dollar to liquidate
their assessment. That was quite a problem. In
the end, where we refunded money that had been paid
on the assessment, we only refunded what they had
paid for their w arrant s.
Baum: Wasn't it rather difficult to determine at what dis
count they had purchased their warrants?
Downey: We made them show it. They had to make an affidavit.
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Downey)
But I can say this about the litigation. I was
almost constantly engaged for a number of years
there in litigation in the State Supreme Court
or the United States Supreme Court and frequently
in the Superior Court. For a time my practice was
almost entirely confined to the State Supreme Court.
So many problems arose.
Take this three million dollars appropriated
by the state in aid of the Number 6 project. The
state said it had to be applied in a certain way
and we wanted to get legislation through to apply
it some other way. So we had to fight the legisla
ture to get that and we ran into tremendous opposi
tion. We got that through the legislature and then
we had to face all the litigation on that.
How did you go about getting something through
the legislature?
We had a very good man, a farmer. There was no
better man than he was in work of that kind. I
don't want you to think I was doing all this. I
certainly was not. We had men who knew how to lobby,
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as they say, a bill through the legislature <r
through Congress, good men, not professional
lobbyists.
Baum: Who was this farmer?
Downey: His name was Bill Dwyer. He's also dead now. No
better man ever lived.
Bsum: He was an employee of the board?
Downey: No, he was Just doing this because he felt much
the same way about it as I did. He was a very
outstanding man. There were lots and lots of
people like that. I can't remember all of them.
Just interested people or people you employed:
I think they were all people who were interested
in the sense that they were interested in the
valley lands. Some of the people were hoping
they wouldn't have to pay the assessment, of course,
It was all fair enough*
Baum: When the Sacramento and San Joaquin Drainage
District was passed in 1913* did that a ct include
the one -third, one -third, one -third arrangement?
Downey: No, it Just created the drainage district. The
Baum:
Downey:
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey J
Baum:
1911 legislation anproved the third, third &
third.
But it didn't say specifically that the state
wasgoing to pay its part of that?
We didn't get that until 1925. As I remember,
in 1911 it was just simply that the plan of the
California Debris Commission was approved, which
was 4t least a moral committment to pay a third
of the cost. The 1925 legislation approving
the Grant Report is very clear.
That's where t he state finally admitted ai ob
ligation to pay.
Yes.
I talked to Senator Herbert C. Jones.
He was in the legislature at the time. What did
he have to s ay?
He felt that the landowners had no right to
expect t he state to contribute to this, that they
had agreed t o build these things which were to
their own advantage, and that later on the state
was rather taken fora ride.
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Downey: I can see that that might be a viewpoint. I
think he supported the bill.
Beum: Yes, he did,
Downey: I suppose that other people felt that way. I
never felt that way about it.
Baum: Did you feel thmt the state had really implied
an obligation back in 1913?
Downey: 1911 when they approved the plan.
Baum: Then it wasn't Just a matter that the landowners
couldn't pay, that they were financially unable
to carry the burden?
Downey: I felt that it was a fair division of the costs
of this gigantic project. The project benefits
the state, the federal government, and the
property owner and a rough division is a third,
a third, and a third. The state certainly assumes
some obligation for floods and the United States
assumes obligations for floods a nd f or navigability.
I can see how somebody else might look at it
differently, but of course, I know I'm right,
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Baum:
Downey:
Was the refinancing mainly carried on by the
federal government returning money to the state
and then the state picking up the warrants and
assessments?
The state would then repay the landowner who
had paid his assessment, but they hadn't paid to
a great extent. The Number 6 assessment, for
example, was divided into flood control and re
clamation benefits and they had made calls on the
flood control benefits. Those, we regarded as the
obligation of the state and the United States to
take care of.
I don't think there are many assessments left.
There haven't been many paid because by the pro
cess of refinancing we've taken care of them.
The state gave us money to refinance too after
the 192£ legislation. I know the Number 2 assess
ment was wiped out entirely and certainly most of
the Number 6.
Now the federal government pays the cost of
all future levees, the entire cost, and the
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Reclamation Board provides the rights of way and
takes care of the utility changes.
Baum: This is from the landowners?
Downey: Nothing from the landowners, unless at some time
they may be required by the Reclamation Board
to put up the money for rights of way* Generally
the board provides the rights of way.
Baum: Through state appropriations?
Downey: Yes. The whole thing is rather intricate. The
Bau Reclamation Board started in by having the re
clamation districts build these levees. Reclamation
District 1500 built this West Levee. Then they
immediately put in a claim to the Reclamation
Board. That levee cost them several million
dollars. The Reclamation Board allowed that.
That was before I went on the board. Then I
had to contest that In the Supreme Court because
1 claimed they shouldn't do that. It was very
complicated.
Baum: Before 1923 when you came on was most of the
construction done by local districts?
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Bauin:
Downey:
Baum:
Not all of It, but most of the big construction.
Then they would send! in a claim to the Reclamation
Board, and you felt that was not a legal way?
I Just didn't want to pay out the money at that
time. Because it would come right back on the
property owners anyway and I objected to the allow
ance or interest.
Then the Reclamation Board would have to assess
the same property owners.
That's right.
Duties of the Board of Reclamation
In 1923 when you came on the board there was a
complete reshuffle of the board by Governor
Richardson,
There sure w as.
Why was that?
Part of it, I think, was the feeling that generally
prevailed against the Reclamation Board, Part
of it was politics.
What was the feeling against the Reclamation
Board?
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Downey: In 1923? One of the things I think was the fact
that people didn't want to have such money spent
on the project. I don't know how I got on the
board staff at that time. The whole board was
changed. Richardson did a good deal of that whan
he went in, made a lot of changes. I'm sure there
was a general feeling against the Reclamation
Board. There was a general feeling too when we
all went in because the old board had their
friends and it wes a very unceremonious way of
getting rid of the board. He Just fired them.
Baum: Yes, he fired thirty members of the staff and
closed the San Francisco office.
Downey; And they had their friends, too. The feeling was
that he shouldn't have done it that way. They
f ired t he attorney too, which wasn't very pleasant
for me because I was a close friend of his.
Baum: Oh, that was Frank Freeman.
Downey: Yes. A very fine gentleman.
Baum: You were a Democrat at the time and Richardson
was a Republican. I wondered where you came in?
Downey: I don't know?
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey!
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Were you a political supporter of his?
No, not of Richardson. I was lukewarm about him.
I don't know*
Were you an active Democrat at that time?
Not particularly.
You weren't very political?
Off and on through the years I have been. I
wasn't at that time. I guess I told you that when
Hiram Johnson and Theodore Roosevelt ran In 1912
I was quite active as a Progressive, then shifted
to a Democrat and am still a Democrat.
Could you tell me a little bit about what the
duties of the board were? How often did they meet?
They met once a month, and we had special meetings.
They meet twice a month now.
Did the board members have to spend much time on
their work outside of the meetings?
Well, Peter Gadd did. He had energy. We realized
later on he had his Ideas as to where his energy
should be put. Certainly the chairman of the
board put in quite a little time. No, I don't
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think they put in too much time ordinarily. Most
of the work was done by the staff. I thought
I worked pretty hard at that time.
Baum: In the 1920 'a the Central Valley Water and Power
Act came up for the initiative vote three times.
I wondered if the Reclamation Board took any stand
on that.
Downey: No. They certainly didn't take any action on that
when I was with the Board.
Baum: About how much of your practice was devoted to the
Reclamation Board?
Downey: Well, there was certainly a period there when we
had all this litigation, when I was working on
Congress, on Grant, that it took pretty near all
my time. That was almost the bulk of my work for
the entire time I was there, heavy work.
Baum: Were you paid on a salary basis or a fee basis?
Downey: No, I sent my bill.
Baum: Did you feel that was more satisfactory to be on
a fee basis?
Downey: Doing that kind of work, it was. It was all very
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big work. It involved very substantial sums of
money and I wouldn't have wanted to be paid Just
by the month. That three million dollar appro
priation the state made was a continuing appro
priation and of course, we were always worried
about whether they would continue or cut down.
There certainly were fights against it,
Baum: Was that part of your Job, to see that the appro
priation got through?
Downey: It certainly was. All of the financial provisions
were s o important to the board. I certainly
followed that. Except for the engineering, I
knew pretty well what was going on while I was
there, and I've kept in touch with them ever since
fairly well. I know Colonel Barton, the chief
engineer. He was there all the time. He came in
at the same time that Richardson fired the old
board, and he'd come to me and I to him to g et
information.
Actually, when the bill was up before the
legislature to transfer all my activities to the
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attorney-general, I recommended it should be
handled by the attorney-general and since that
time it has been handled that way*
Baum: Was that when you went out? About 1933?
Downey: Yes, that's when I went out. I know, the man in
the legislature who had perhaps the most to do
with that wanted to know if I wanted to go out.
By that time I was pretty well fed up on it. Heavy
work.
Baum: By this time was most of you practice devoted to
water law?
Downey: It's my recollection that I went down to Merced
before I left the Reclamation Board. I was w
still busy with my Reclamation Board work, but
I think I was gradually getting to the more general
water work.
Baum: Do you handle any work f or t hem now?
Downey: No. It all has to go to the attorney-general,
but I do handle work for them in a private
capacity, and Barton comes to me, and the chairman
of the board. They've recently had claim-suits
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filed against them for several million dollars
rising out of the recent flood so you have to
help them out if you can. They come to me and
talk to me about those things,
Baum: What were some of your major cases while you
were with the Board,
Downey: I've made a list of them. (The list is included
in the Appendix)
Baum: Just as a summing up, do you feel that the major
impediment to this coordinated flood control
construction was financial?
Downey: I'm sure it was... I think the only thing that held
it up before was lack of money. We need more
money from the state and the federal government.
That's the thing I'm working on now, and the
attorneys f or t he board.
We need all our banks stabilized. All the
banks are more or Itss crumbling, caving, and
it's a tremendous Job to stabilize them. They
have to be reveted. It runs into fantastic sums.
I've always maintained it's the obligation of the
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Baum:
Downe j :
federal government because It's the navigation
end of the project. Barges use the river for
navigation, we empty water into the river from
Central Velley, Shasta. It all causes erosion of
the banks. Unless the banks are completely
stabilized they break down. They've never been
completely stabilized and that's what we're trying
to get the federal government to do now as part
of our flood control project. They do assume some
of this bank revetment on the Mississippi but
they are very much afraid of assuming anything
further on the bank revetment because of the tre
mendous cost all over the United States*
I know that in this Reclamation Board work
I did a good job. I know that. But it's long
past and gone now, water over the dam»
Was the Reclamation Board able t o do any work
before 1917?
The Reclamation Board was charged t o carry out
this plan that had been approved. So they began
to adopt assessments that were necessary to carry
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out a certain part of the plan. For example, they
levied an assessment over here in Sutter County and
vicinity, the Sutter-Butte By-Pass Assessment
Number 6, an eight million dollar assessment. It
doesn't sound like much now, but it was an aw
fully big assessment in those days. They were pro
ceeding to carry out that assessment. There were
other a ssessments in otherareas. They levied a
general assessment to take care of the overhead.
Baum: In other words, they levied an assessment for work
in a certain area Just on that area rather than
a general assessment over the whole district*
Downey: Right. Now, we get to the point where I came on
the board in 192 3, The Sacramento Val ley was in
a frenzy. They had all of these assessments, some
of which had been levied and some of which they
were planning to levy and the lands couldn't a
stand it. We were very much undeveloped at that
time.
What to do? Obviously, the fundamental defect
was that the state and the federal government
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Downey!
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
weren't bearing their portion of the cost. The
plan was all right.
Was the state bearing one -third?
They made some minor appropriations, but nothing
like one -third of the cost. They made one appropria
tion for three million dollars and there were others.
Those just took care of little things, but it was
very complicated because we had to credit those
some way on these assessments*
......
Why didn't the state bear its one-third?
That's what we said. But, of course, they weren't
going to put up any money until the federal govern-
ment put up their third.
It was in March or April of 1923 that this big
shuffle came along and Peter Gadd was appointed as
the secretary. Shortly after that there was an in
vestigation as to whether he was using his influence
improperly.
Thatwas very embarrassing. He w as also my friend.
He was the secretary of the Reclamation Board and
he was easily the most influential member on the
board. They all trusted him. He was undoubtedly
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a good friend of theirs. After they began allowing
these claims, Peter went to the attorney of Reclama
tion District 1001 or the attorney went to him, and
Peter told the attorney that he had a good claim
against the Reclamation Board, similar to the claim
Reclamation District l£00 had had. Then he made a
contract with District 1001 that he be paid a high
percentage of whatever might be recovered on that
claim from the Reclamation Board. He and the lawyer
agreed on that.
Baum: Charles Metteer.
Downey: The engineer got the biggest part of the fee instead
of the lawyer. That was a horrible thing. But I
don't want to Joke about this deal. These warrants,
after they are approved by the Reclamation Board-
he puts in a claim for the 1001 levee and the warrants
go to the State Controller and are then returned to
the Reclamation Board. Ordinarily it takes quite a
while toget those claims back, but he had the claims
approved and then he went around after the meeting
of the board and had them all signed by the individual
members of the board--! t was necessary to get them
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signed — and then he gets those warrants back almost
immediately and then he keeps his share of the
warrants and turns back a very unsubstantial amount
to District 1001.
Well, Peter was my friend too. We've never
spoken since that time.
Baum: How did that come out?
Downey: First the Reclamation Board investigated it and
held that he shouldn't have done what he did. Then
some of the landowners in District 1001 brought
suit against him to require the return of these
warrants, against him and the attorney, and they won
that suit. He never got anything out of it. There
were still a few warrants that he might have been
entitled to as a reasonable fee. By that time the
Board of Control had stopped payment on them and he
never got a cent out of them as far as I know. He
had actually resigned from the board at the time he
got this claim through.
Baum: That happened in November of 1923. I think he had
been appointed secretary in March or April of 1923.
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Downey: He was a fast worker.
Baum: What were your duties in connection with this case?
Downey: In the first place, he was my friend. I talked to
him and told him he ought to turn back those warrants.
He didn't see why. He'd done a good job, he said.
He wasn't any more involved with t he board at that
time, he said. Of course, we debated that. I said,
"If you don't do it, it will put all the board in a
terrible position. People will feel they shouldn't
have paid that kind of a bill for collection of a
claim if there wasn't something wrong with the claim.
You think the claim was good and I think so too.
But they'll never forgive the board for approving a
claim like that where a man has to pay all that
money to get it collected." I remember at our
last conversation he said, "I won't give back the
warrants." And he never did, but he loat them all.
Baum: So you t rled to prevent this scandal.
Downey: Oh yes. Then after that I had to go before the
board and recommend that they take action. We had
a hearing on that and I think I wrote the opinion
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for the board in which they disavowed the warrants
and recommended that the landowners in District 1001
make suit to recover them. The board couldn't bring
that suit.
Baum: An unfortunate occurrence.
Downey: We had come back from the service together. Our
wives knew each other.
Baum: What are the qualifications that a governor looks
for in a board member?
Downey: Well, they've had good men, awfully good men. They
try to get a certain representation for all the
differnet sections of the state that are interested
in the work of reclamation. They have now, for ex
ample, one man from Stockton, a couple men from
down the river here, one man from Yuba City, one from
Gridley, one from Sacramento. They divide up the
representation so as to get people who are interested
in reclamation.
Baum: Are they mainly landowners who are involved?
Downey: Their people mostly are people who are rather sub
stantial landowners. They are unhappy now because
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of all these claims that are being filed against
them as a result of the flood.
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WORK FOR THE MERCED IRRIGATION DISTRICT
Legal Cases
Baura: I think you said you went to Merced about 192?.
Downey: It must have been about 192?.
Baum: What did you do with your practice up here?
Downey: I didn't live down there. I'd get up about four
o'clock in the morning and drive down there, be there
about seven or eight o'clock and then I'd stay there
the ^ay and drive back that night or the next morn
ing. Much of that work was right here in the office,
you see. Then, when I'd try a case I'd have to go
down there. I didn't have anything to do with the
organization of the Merced Irrigation District. The
district had been organized, had voted bonds, and
the building of the dam had been pretty well com
pleted and the power house. Then everything kind of
got into a mess. They brought all this water down
to areas in Merced County that hadn't had water be
fore and there was not adequate drainage and that
created a high ground water condition and they had
lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit. Things were
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getting a little hot then.
Baum: Was that why you went to Merced, to handle the
Merced Irrigation District affairs?
Downey: Yes, it must have been right after the irrigation
season of 192?, which was the first irrigation sea
son they had after the dam. I was really called
down there.
They had a very able man at Merced, Al Cowell,
in charge of the legal end of the district, but
he wan't particularly a fighter. Part of this was
not his fault and part of it was. When they re
located the Yoseraite Valley Railroad that cost a
lot of money and he was held responsible for that.
He shouldn't have been responsible for that, but
the people held him that way. They had all these
riparian claims coming up and they were afraid that
he wouldn't fight them. So I went down there to
succeed him, and I never had a finer friend than
Al Cowell. A fine man.
Baum: Did you have a reputation as a fighter by this time?
Downey: I think I had more of a reputation then than I've
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ever had since. I loved these fights then. I
don't like them now.
Baum: Had you already specialized in water law by this
time?
Downey: No, I really hadn't. I'd worked with the Reclamation
Board, but there we were trying to get rid of water.
Suddenly I was called down to the San Joaquin Valley
and right away one of the big problems was getting
water to the people who wanted it. They'd had the
old Crocker-Huffman Land and Water Company, which
had operated as a public utility and sold water, and
in the late summer there wasn't any water to speak
of. Out of that came the desire to form an irrigation
district and impound the water for use in the summer
time.
There were so many problems at that time. There
was too much water arising from the release of water
from the dam without the necessary drainage, practically
no drainage at all to speak of. The problem had to
be worked out to keep the lands from high ground
water conditions and ruination of the fruit lands.
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Then there was the problem of handling the water...
it was new all t^he way around. It was like up
setting an ant heap, the ants ran everywhere.
Bauir: What were the major causes of these lawsuits?
Downey: A great many people wanted to get water and there
wasn't enough water to satisfy everybody. And there
were riparian rights suits, which were tremendous.
In those days a public agency just went up the river
and built their dam and that resulted in adversing
the riparian owners down below. They got by with
that to a very considerable extent. The Miller and
Lux people brought suits on the San Joaquin prior
to my connection with the Merced District. They
entered into contract with the Southern California
Edison Company.
But people were becoming more and more aware of
their riparian rights and we had a great many riparian
right suits. They brought what we called inverse
condemnation. They were trying to recover damages
for taking water by the Merced Irrigation District.
They had lost their right to an injunction because
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they had waited too long.
I remember one case, the Stevlnson people,
who were large landowners, they had a suit pending
against us for several million dollars, which we
finally settled by giving them some of our spill
water. There were suits brought that would have
bankrupted the district, and of course people were
becoming worried about that. I had to take over all
those cases.
Baum: Did you take most of those cases into court or did
you try to settle them outside?
Downey: They all started in court. One case there, the
Collier case, a rather celebrated case, went clear
through the trial. Most of those cases were very,
very vigorously prosecuted and the Collier people
said, "We have this beautiful ranch here on the Mer
ced River. The water used to come up every winter a nd
overflow our lands, sweeten the lands, kill the pests,
and now you've taken it away from us." That was a
forerunner of the constitutional amendment which
came in in 1928 and helped those cases very much.
But this Collier case resulted before the amendment
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was passed. They wanted half a million dollars be
cause they claimed the ranch had been ruined. It
was very ably and very vigorously prosecuted. I
remember, we argued it about Thanksgiving, Just
before the Big Game. We managed to see the Big
Game, but I didn't know whatwas going to happen in
that case, and strange to say, I was thinking not
of the game but of the case.
What we offered to do, and this was a novel
feature, a rule that would have been applied had
it not been for the constitutional amendment which
eliminated the necessity for it, we said, "We haven't
taken all your water. We'll guarantee to give you
eighteen second feet of water forever, whenever you
want it..." They said that was like stealing a
steer and offering back a piece of the hind quarter.
In the end the jury had to apply this rule, that
if we had damaged their property we had to pay for
it, but the only damage was the difference between
what they would have gotten in a state of nature and
what we offered to give them, and they got nothing,
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Baum:
Downey!
not a dollar.
It was quite a case. Edward F. Treadwell, who
handled many of those cases, handled the case against
us. We didn't know what would happen to us on that
case. That could pretty nearly have ruined us right
there, that one piece of property.
They didn't want the water? They wanted the money?
They wanted the money. They were willing to take
eighteen second-feet of water, but they claimed that
in a state of nature they got several thousand acre-
feet and they didn't want to take less than that.
As a matter of fact, it was really a practical appli
cation of the constitution amendment, although that
hadn't gone into effect at that time. The amendment
says that they are only entitled to a reasonable
amount of water by reasonable methods of diversion
and eighteen second -feet of water would have taken
care of their ranch if they'd put in pumps. If they'd
put in the pumo,that would have cost them fifty
thousand dollars, but they didn't try the case on that
theory and they didn't get a thing.
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Baum: I'd like to ask you about the Hermlnghaus case and
the resulting constitutional amendment. I think
that was in 1926.
Downey: Let's see. I was with the Reclamation Board in
1926. The constitutional amendment was in 1928.
I was very interested, but I didn't participate
then like I do right now, for example, on this
counties of origin water that they're going to have
a dispute about pretty soon. But I knew about it
and talked to Peck and Tread well about it frequently
and those other men who were interested in it.
And was very much interested in the constitutional
amendment which was the outcome.
Baum: Were a lot of the cases you tried at Merced arising
out of this Herminghaus decision?
Downey: Those riparian right cases were.
Baum: You mentioned E. P. Treadwell. Was he in favor
of this 1928 amendment?
Downey: I don't think he was. He may have been on the state
wide committee on that, but I'm: not sure.
Baum: He was a Miller and Lux attorney.
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Downey: He was a Miller and Lux attorney for a great many
yeera. He did an immense volume of water work down
in the San Joaquin Valley. Of course, he was the
attorney in the Herminghaus case itself. He's
written a book, The Cattle King. It isn't as good
as it should be or as good as Treadwell could be
just to talk with you. But he had a great lot of
experience in those kinds of matters.
Baum: And you and he were in many cases on opposite sides?
Downey: Always on opposite sides. I don't think I was ever
on the same side.
Baum: What did Treadwell look like?
Downey: He was a tall man, rather sparsely built, a strong
face, and a lot of experience in water law.
Baum: Was he a man you could negotiate with, or did you
have to fight it out?
Downey: Not at first you couldn't, but as the years went
by and he began to get a little older, yes. He
represented Collier in that Collier case and accord
ing to him we did make a proposition of settlement —
I know we did --and according to him his people wouldn't
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take it. He recommended it, maybe. I don't know.
He would have been much better to have taken an
compromise.
But after that Collier case, which was the
most bitter fight we had there, I think we should
have been held for some damages, but we weren't
held for any. After the c ase was all over, one of
the jurors, a big six foot six man, met me on the
street and shook me by the hand and said, "By God,
this irrigation district's got a lawyer.11 (laughter)
That was a gross overstatement and not deserved,
but the feeling of the people was that they were
letting the irrigation district be cornered by all
kinds of devices and money taken out of them. I
was suppossed to get them away from that and we had
tremendous luck in all these cases. Incidentally,
the same Collier juror, when asked how the jury came
to find arainst the plaintiff, said," By God, Nol
It ain't right." A Solomon judgment, I thought.
Baum: Why do you think most of these cases were won by
the district? Was that because the jurors were
prejudiced in favor of the district?
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Downey: Well, I think we had the public sentiment although
irrigation district residents were not eligible for
the jury. It was a matter, however, of presenting
them the facts.
The San Joaquin Light and Power Company arranged
right at the inception to buy the power from the
district. Th"t was in order to prevent paralleling,
as they had done in Modesto. Pretty soon we got
into a fight with them as to whether they were
taking as much power as we could generate at that
time. They said, "Well, we don't have to take above
2^,000 kilowatts," I brought suit on that myself
against the San Joaquin Light and Power and we re
covered there. That made a difference of about
two million dollars to the district.
Baum: They didn't want all your power?
Downey: No, they had originally taken the power because
they didn't want to have the district parallel their
system. Then we began to get peak loads and they
could get that very cheap from us, unless they were
obligated to buy it. The contract provided that we
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would build a plant of 2£,000 kilowatts capacity, and
then they'd get the dump power much cheaper. We
sued them though for all of it and we got it, up
to 32,750 kilowatts as I remember.
Baura: Were most of these in jury trials?
Downey: No, they weren«t. That one was a Jury trial. There
were a great many court trials involving not so
much money as those two cases.
Baum: Was there any agitation among the district people
to take over the distribution system?
Downey: I think there probably was, Mrs. Baum, but that
part of the fight was over when I got there. Prom
time to time people used to say to me, "We ought
to set aside that contract a nd build our own system."
I learned about that sort of thing when I came to
S.M.U.D.
The Lyman Hoag case was a court case because it was
an equity case. That was a case to compel the dis
trict to put in a lot of drainage. Again, you can't
do all those things in a day. It costs a lot of
money. We found by experience that the best way of
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handling that drainage situation was the drainage
wells.
Every one of these cases, Mrs. Baum, were
tough cases. I couldn't try those cases any more.
They were war.
In that case the district had employed Jim
Peck who was an outstanding water lawyer. That was
before my connection with the district. The dis
trict was being sued and it would be calamity if
the suit was successful. It was a case involving
months and months of steady work, the technique of
it. They just got well into the trial of the case,
maybe two or three days before the end, and Peck
turned around and sued the district personally for
the same cause of action. Well, he hadn't any alibi
for that. Of course, the community was Infuriated.
I didn't know anything about the case. I hadn't
handled it at all, didn't know about the facts or
underlying principles of it, but the directors Just
called him up and fired him like that. Then they
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called me up in Sacramento and told me to come right
down and take over the case, which I did. It was a
tough case. That went to the Supreme Court too.
We won.
I think for s everal years of my life when I
was representing the Reclamation Board and the Mer
ced Irrigation District my practice was practically
confined to cases that went to the Supreme Court.
Baum: All this legal work was quite expensive. I was
wondering if the voters in the district resented
this expenditure of funds.
Downey: Well, I didn't charge as much then as I do now.
(laughter) I'm sure I did that work very reasonably
and that's another reason they kind of liked it.
I could have charged more and would now if they
celled on me to do it.
Baum: Were you popular with the district voters?
Downey: I think I was.
Baum: I know sometimes attorneys aren't popular.
Downey: I think I was. But how does any man know?
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Refinancing the District
Downey: That leads up to another thing. We ran into
the agricultural depression and we ran into these
short power years, a year when we'd get |95>»000
from our plant which should yield over $500,000 a
year. Those things combined, and the fact that the
whole set-up of an irrigation district was wrong
for the period of time we had then. People couldn't
pay their assessments and when one person couldn't
pay that went onto the rest of the land and
pyramided. It just couldn't be worked out. So we
realized soon that we weve going to go into default.
We couldn't possibly meet our obligations. I
didn't feel competent to work that out.
They got a very outstanding lawyer to handle
their negotiations on refinancing. He was a very
good lawyer, he understood that business. But
there again, after he got into it, he had no con
ception of the difficulties of the farmers down
there. They were rapidly going to disaster.
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Baum: Who was that?
Downey: Max Thelen. A very good friend of mine, by the
way. But he didn't under stand the fanning point
of view on a thing like that.
Well, I worked with him. He was very gracious
to me. He didn't want to handle the Imw end of it
at all. They finally drew up a plan to refinance
the district which contemplated some reduction
in the interest, but ultimate payment of all the
principle. But it was Just one of those things
that couldn't be solved without a complete change
that nobody at that time would consider.
Baum: Did Thelen think this was feasible?
Downey: I think everybody did. The bondholders all thought
it was feasible. There was a big bondholders'
committee at that t ime. They realized the district
was in trouble, but they thought it could be
refinanced.
Well, everybody thought this couldba carried
out without any reduction in the principle at
that time. Max did very excellent work on that,
eew c
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Baura:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
but it was just one of those things that was im
possible to do. Eventually they wanted to have
me take that over, which I didn't feel competent
to do. That came at a time when conditions had
changed, the depression was on, Roosevelt had gone
in as president, the National Bankruptcy Law had
been passed by Congress, held unconstitutional
by the United States Supreme Court and then later
re-enacted and held constitutional. The Recon
struction Finance Corporation had been authorized
to make loans to some of these districts that
were very distressed.
Wasn't it back in 1933 when these refinancing
negotiations began?
Yes.
I noted that Max Thelen and Franklin P. Nutting
were engaged in negotiations.
Nutting's name doesn't ring a bell. But Max
dropped out before we got to this refinancing
end of it,
Oh, he dropped out? Then you had the Benedict
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report made up.
Downey: Yes, and that's quite a milestone. By the Giannini
Foundation.
Baum: What was the purpose of the Benedict report?
Downey: I think that was started when Max was still there
and he undoubtedly helped in arranging that. The
trouble was that nobody could tell what was the
ability of the landowners to pay. Finally Dr.
Benedict agreed to make this report. I don't
think that was finished until long after Max was
not there. That report is a scientific report,
very ably done. Dr. Benedict testified for me
in the case which finally resulted in approval
of the refinancing plan. I think without his
testimony I couldn't have won that case. That
was in the U.S. Court and subsequently went to the
United States Circuit Court of Appeals and Supreme
Court. We had to show that the amount that was
compromised in this settlement was the amount
equivalent to the a billty of the landowners
to pay. The only way you could prove it, I
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believed and still believe, was by testimony of
this kind.
Baum: Then the problem was that the bondholders didn't
believe that the fanners were as poor as they were?
Downey: That's true. Then gradually began to see our
problem, I think. Finally we got to the point
where there was a big group of holdouts on the
bondholders' committee that wouldn't acquiesce
in this plan. We had to get their consent in
order to file a petition in bankruptcy under the
Municipal Bankruptcy Act. So we decided to hold
a referendum among the bondholders themselves.
Do you remember how many were on that committee?
Baum: It was a huge committee.
Downey: And men of means. So we held this referendum. The
big thing I did, if I did anything there, was
in getting them to submit it t o a referendum of
their own people. We sent out ballots to deter
mine if they were irifavor of this plan or not*
We waged a political campaign at that time the
likes of which you've never seen. We had to bring
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
arguments to bear on the bondholders and the com
mittee to make them feel that they should accept
this 1$ bond in place of what they already had,
and there was a cut of about eight million dollars
in the principle as I remember.
In the end to our amazement we got the bond
holders' committee to vote in favor of this plan.
There were still about eight or ten holdouts that
never did come in.
What kind of persuasion did you use?
I don't know. It must have been pretty good. We
knew we were right and could show even the bond
holders. We're still fighting with some of those
people right now. I Just closed up one case.
Some of the holdouts?
Yes. They wouldn't even take their money when
it went into court. When we got this decree of
court under which they had to accept these bonds,
they wouldn't take the money and we had to get an
order of the court compelling them to take the
money.
Did you send them copies of the Benedict report?
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Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Oh yes,
And use printed material in your campaign, or
did you contact them personally?
Well, it was both ways. The committee was re
presented by George Herrington, an outstanding
lawyer of San Francisco. He thoroughly understood
the situation. As a matter of fact, we retained
him to assist in the trial of the action when it
finally came up. This we could do after the
referendum. He was representing the bondholders'
committee, but we retained him tote there because
he was so very, very good. As he said, he'd been
in every refinancing plan in California involving
irrigation districts and he knew Just what he
was talking about. I have a talk here that he
delivered at the time of the argument which I
consider very fine which I'll give to you. It
explains the picture very clearly.
Was he chiefly a bondholders' representative in
all these California cases?
Yes, he was a bondholders' representative, but
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Baum:
Downey!
Baum:
he was a very constructive man. Anyway, by
that time we had much litigation. There were suits
in state courts to compel us to pay the bonds,
matters pending before the legislature wherein
we tried to change the law. Of course, the Mun
icipal Bankruptcy Act had only recently been up
held. Hell was poppin1 all the way around.
In the end we prevailed. I think that's
true of every case I had there. I don't claim
credit for them.
But I must say this, my relations with Max
were always very, very pleasant. I've always had
the highest regard for him.
Wv"l S
I read a speech by Dr. Benedict, this was before
the negotiations were completed, and I think he
said there had been too many negotiators and that
was one of the troubles. This was before Mr.
Thelen was out of it.
There were lots of people trying to negotiate.
I think they shuffled it down to just Mr. Thelen
and got rid of the other negotiators.
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Downey:
Baton:
Downey:
That's true. And Max1 appointment as negotiator
met with great approval at that time. It wasn't
his fault the plan failed, it Just wasn.'t in the
cards to carry out that plan.
That wes in 1933. I don't think any districts had
cut their principle then, as they did later.
No, the bondholders weren't used to that at that
time. Of course, after that came the terrible
depression and everything kept going down and
down. The one thing that saved us was the fact
that they had made money available for loans
by the Reconstruction Finance Corporation and we
got one of the first loans there under that law.
Mr. H.P. Sargent, the secretary, and I went
back to Washington. Kind of a laughable thing,
two boys from the country. He was a Maine boy,
very much of a country boy, a splendid man. We
went there and we just went up to the office of
the Reconstruction Finance Corporation and told
them we wanted a loan of several million dollars.
They were expecting us t o come there and contact
the congressmen and contact the senators and
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
work on them, so to speak. We didn't know, we
Just went there. They laughed about that after
wards but we got the loan. I thlnkwe got one of
the first substantial loans to distressed irriga-
tlon districts and one of the biggest ones.
Then, you see, we had to work out this bond
act cutting down the principle. Then we had to
arrange with the bondholders' committee to accept
it. Under the Municipal Bankruptcy Act you have
to get a certain percentage of your creditors to
accept* Then we filed the action and we had to
prove our case, which to a very substantial degree
was proved by the Benedict report.
I'd like to ask. Was one of the holdouts J.
Rupert Mason?
On yes. One of the holdouts of the holdouts.
It seems like whenever there's a holdout in an
irrigation district, he's it.
Oh, he did. Quite a group of the irrigation
districts refinanced at the same time and he
was in all of them. He kept me f ilk d up with
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literature. He asked me about sending literature
to the bondholders. He always sent me a Christmas
card. He had the point of view of the bondholder.
At the same time, he must have realized that people
couldn't pay those obligations. Some of those
bondholders Just figured they'd hold on long enough
and they'd get their money. In some of these
districts they did. They didn't get one penny in
Merced, except what everybody got. They figured
by and by they'd pay them off Just to get rid of
them.
In some of these irrigation districts the
fortunes were varied. In some cases they didn't
get the settlement proposed, in some cases they
were reversed, but on the whole they worked out
pretty well.
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WORK FOR THE MADERA IRRIGATION DISTRICT
Miller and Lux vs. Madera Irrigation District, 1933
Baum: Then when did you go to Madera?
Downey: Well, I didn't go to Madera like I did to Merced.
Baum: You were in Merced for a long time.
Downey: Yes. I can't tell you when I left Merced. I
must have been there about ten years or so,
quite a block out of my life,
Treadwell brought a suit against the Madera
Irrigation District t o determine the water rights
on the San Joaquin River, of which most all were
held by Miller and Lux and the public utility
which they owned. It involved practically all
the water in the San Joaquin River. It was tried
for months *
I was with Milton Farmer at that time re
presenting the Madera Irrigation District. That
decision was kind of a classic in water law, the
decision by Judge Haines. It didn't go to the
upper courts.
Baum: This Miller and Lux vs. the Madere Irrigation
District was 1933. °id you think the judgment
Judge Haines rendered was a fair one?
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Downey: Yes, very able. It was about that thick.
Baum: Were all of the parties satisfied?
Downey: Nobody appealed. Yes, I thought it was very fair.
We came out of it very well, Madera District. He
certainly cut down on some of the rights of the
Miller and Lux people. Tree dwell wasn't happy
about that, but he had a very logical mind and
I think he accepted it... they figured they couldn't
reverse it anyway. We didn't want to go up any
higher,
Baum: How did Judge Raines come to his decision?
Downey: Well, he's a bachelor and a great worker. I
can only say that was the only case I ever tried
before him. He'd get the daily transcript. The
transcript would be out by seven o'clock. He'd
take it up t o his rooms and read that transcript
all the rest of the night. It was a long case,
very dreary engineering. Then he'd come down
to the court in the morning and he'd tay,
"Gentlemen, have you any corrections to make in
the transcript of yesterday?" Most of us hadn't
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Baura:
Downey:
even read it. We'd say, "Why no, Your Honor."
"Well, the court makes the following corrections."
Then he'd read off a long list of corrections he'd
made in that transcript. He was a terrific worker.
Then he had digested all this engineering material
himself?
Yes, he had. As Tresdwell said, and coming from
Treadwell, that's a good deal, at the conclusion
of the evidence he said, "Your Honor knows much
more about this case than any of us lawyers here."
And that was true, he did. Then he took the case
under advisement and by and by, it wasn't too long
either, most people would have taken several years
to decide that case, he sent word that he was going
to decide the case and he wanted all the attorneys
to be in court. So we all came to court and he made
us sit there while he read his decision. A big
volume. I think it took him two days to read it.
I talked to Chief Justice Gibson about him being
on the Supreme Court, he ought to be. I never knew
a man to understand a case better than he did. But
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apparently he had some idiosyncrasies that people
didn't like, I don't know. Hard to work with maybe.
I never thought that. He was very agreeable. He
always knew what the case was about. He was ahead
of you all the time, which was very unusual in a
judge.
He's a Judge In San Diego. He was called in to
try this case. I've often wondered if he is still
living. He was pretty well along in years at that
tirre. I haven't ever seen him since that case.
Baum: Have you ever been involved in any other cases that
concerned adjudication of water rights? Where the
judge made the decision like that?
Downey: I've never known any Judge who could pass on all the
engineering matters that he did. There probably
have been. I don't recollect.
Negotiations to Sell Friant Dam Site to the United States
Yes, but my contacts with Madera were not as close
as they were at Merced. I worked for them for a
period of years and finally gave it un for many rea
sons.
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At that time the Madera people had the Friant
site, which has subsequently gone to the United
States, and they had filed notice of appropriations.
The theory was originally that they were going to
carry out this project themselves, what is now the
Friant feature of the Central Valley Project. They
couldn't do it, of course, the expense wss too great.
Then the state came in and was going to take over
Friant. The state at that time intended to put
through the Central Valley Project. That's about
where I appeared in the picture.
The state negotiated with us, Madera,for the
purchase of Friant dam site, that's a wonderful dam
site, and the appropriations there. Then the United
States took it over and we negotiated with the
United States for some time about the sale of the
Friant dam site and these water properties. In the
end the United States bought — I've forgotten what the
consideration was--and they also agreed to build the
Madera Canal which was going to be used to serve
Madera. That was done while I was still there.
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Baum: And you carried on those negotiations?
Downey: Yes, with the State and the United States I did.
Where we finally got into trouble, and that's still
in litigation to this day, is whether the contract
the United States finally offered the people of Ma-
dera on water was a proper contract. . .160 acre
limitation you know. But I dropped out of it. It
took too much time, was a long way off, and many
other things were unpleasant about it. That's one
of the reasons I got out of it. They had a board
of directors that was determined to sign any contract
and they had some other people who wanted to negotiate
further. It was very, very unpleasant in the end and
I finally got out. Right now the case is in the State
Supreme Court as to whether they can force this 160
acre limitation on them. I don't know what's going
to happen in that case.
Baum: Were you in favor of negotiating further?
Downey: Well, it reached a point down there where the members
of the board wanted a ction, they wanted water, and
they were determined they were going to get it no
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
matter whet they had to sign. I don't say I was
opposed to that. They had to make up their own
minds. There was a risk negotiating that we might
not get anywhere, might kill the whole deal. No,
I don't think I had any particular stand on that.
It was up to the directors.
The 160-Acre Limitation and the Bureau of Reclamation
This whole 160-acre limitation thing is con
fusing for so many reasons. I don't know how
they're ever going to enforce it; I don't know how
they're ever going to repeal it. It's absurd in
some respects. Then, Sheridan is wildly opposed.
I've tried to keep out of that pretty much.
You felt that the farmers were against it, most of
them?
Certainly many of them were. The smaller farmers
were probably in favor of it. It's one of those
fighting issues, you know.
It was a fighting issue within the district?
Yes, even then. There were people who had considerably
more than 160 acres who were in the district and they
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had paid their assessments sometimes for years on
the theory that they were going to get water and now
they were going to be excluded from the district
if they couldn't get water. Well, you can see all
the problems there,
Baum: But you didn't take any stand?
Downey: I didn't down there. Ore reason for that, as far as
Sheridan was concerned, our relations were too close.
I was very careful about that. And I don't even
know now what I'd do about that if I were in Congress,
Baum: Then I take it you didn't agree completely with
Sheridan?
Downey: Well, Sheridan was my brother, you know.
Baum: How did he get started on this?
Downey: I don't know. People aaid, "You got him started on
this." That isn't true. I may have expressed an
opinion at one time, although I'm not clear about it,
that the 160-acre limitation was an absurd thing, but
that wouldn't set Sheridan off. He'd make up his own
mind on that and he did. He became obsessed by what
he believed was injustice as injustice always upset
him.
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Baura:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Did he have close friends who were affected adversely
by this thing?
No, I think Just the principle of it went against
his grain. Sheridan, of course, was essentially a
liberal in all his views. But he placed himself
right in opposition to all the people he'd worked
with, the old age pension group, the C.I.O, the
labor unions. When he got to that he never backed
up a bit. He still feels the same wav about it.
If he came in here right now, he'd be off, intense,
perhaps almost irrational. Maybe he's right, I
don't know.
Well, at least he sticks to his principles.
That he does, through thick and thin. Have you seen
his book, They Would Rule the Valley?
Yes, I have.
I think it was in 19i|-l that Madera was informed that
the acreage limitation applied to their properties
and they passed a resolution against it.
Yes, they opposed it.
Were you their attorney at that time?
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Downey: No, not at that time. I kept out of that very, very
deliberately because Sheridan at that time was fight
ing the 160-acre limitation.
Baura: I know Harry Barnes, executive -secretary of the Madera
Irrigation District, has come out in favor — not in
favor of the acreage limitation — but of accepting
federal operation of the Central Valley Project.
Downey: I haven't been in contact with Harry in recent years.
I was very closely in contact with him for many years
there. A very, very able man and a very fine man of
integrity. They don't make them any finer thaji
Harry Barnes. He's been doing some consulting work
outside of Madera. I hear from him at Christmas.
Baum: I wanted to ask you what you thought about the
Bureau of Reclamation in California?
Downey: Well, of course Sheridan was biased very much against
the Reclamation Bureau under Roosevelt. He thought
everybody there was either a Communist or a fellow-
traveler, and there were some people who were cer
tainly liberal, to say It mildly. I can't even
talk to him about the Reclamation Bureau, he gets
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mad. Mad at me for even talking to him about it.
Baum: Sheridan didn't feel the Reclamation Bureau was so
bad before, say 1933.
Downey: No, I think his animosity toward the Reclamation
Bureau was after he was back in Washington. He
really wasn't calm about that, although there was
much in what he had to say, I think. Of course
Mike Straus, he was Commissioner of Reclamation,
he didn't like Mike.
Baum: Personally, or his policies?
Downey: I think he didn't like his policies. Sheridan was
one of those men, if he dislikes you he dislikes
you on all grounds.
Baum: Well, what did you think of the personnel?
Downey: There certainly were some very able and liberal people,
to put it possibly without exaggeration. There were
a number of people there I think who were influenced
by Communism. At least, to some extent I think their
views were affected. I don't think anything like
what Sheridan thinks. Of course, they're much more
conservative now under Eisenhower. Dickie Boke, who
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was the Regional Director here, under Truman and
Roosevelt, we didn't know Just exactly what to think
about him. I liked him personally. The new man,
Spencer, is undoubtedly very conservative, a high-
grade engineer.
Baum: Did you think Boke ' s policies were detrimental to
the Central Valley Project?
Downey: I wouldn't want to say that. There were certainly
some things he did that were rather peculiar. Sheri
dan would have no use for Dickie Boke at all. He
thought he was Communist, or pretty close to that.
There were some people there — my goodness, I get in
to all that stuff. All the fellow-travelers and
Communists and that stuff. There were a lot of them
in Washington. I don't think many Democrats were.
I know I wasn't and I don't know who was, but Sheridan
tells me some of the wildest stories there about how
they tried to get him and how they tried to get LaFol-
lette and LaPollette committed suicide and Harry Dex
ter White and so forth. That's all just talk as far
as I'm concerned, but after all Sheridan saw them oper
ating in Washington and on himself. I didn't.
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IRRIGATION DISTRICTS ASSOCIATION
Baum: Are you associated with the Irrigation Districts
Association?
Downey: I was. I haven't attended any of their meetings for
a good many years.
That's a very powerful organization. I used to
attend those meetings regularly. They make studies
relating to the various problems confronting irriga
tion districts and water problems, do good work,
have very good men on their committees. I was on
some of those committees at one time.
They have a great deal of influence on legisla
tion and properly so. You can call it lobbying if
you like. They have Bob Durbrow now, it used to be
Walter Wagner, come up to the sessions of the legisla
ture. The association studies these measures and some
of them they are for and some of them they are against,
When I used to go there I think whatever they were
for generally went through, they passed many measures.
I don't think they get 100# now, but they get a very
good percent of what they are for and kill many things
they are against. They follow the legislation very
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carefully. Of course, they know what they want.
They are all men who have given a great deal of
thought to these matters. They are a strong organi
zation and I think they're a good organization.
Baum: Did you work with them when A. L. Cowell was their
attorney?
Downey: Yes, I worked with Al for many, many years. He was
the attorney for Merced when I went there. He's
not living now.
Baum: I understand he used to do all the legislative work
for the Irrigation Districts Association.
Downey: He did a lot of it. And Walter Wagner, who I think
at that time was secretary, did a lot of it. And
Bob Durbrow is doing it now. They have a meeting
of the association here in Sacramento about March
and they go over all this legislation and again you
get the democratic reflection of ideas and sentiments,
They have an executive committee that may take a good
deal of interest in them. It's more centralized now
than it was in Al Cowell 's day, but Al was one of
those very fine men, a very able man.
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Baum: Did you know Wagner well?
Downey: Yes, I knew him quite well too.
Baum: What kind of a man was he?
Downey: Well, he was much more the promoter type. He un
doubtedly was largely responsible for the organiza
tion of the Merced District and then he later went
with I.D.A. He was an able man and he devoted a lot
of time to that association. He could be a little
autocratic in what he'd order and what he wouldn't,
but actually he was a good man.
Baum: Did you feel there was any change in policy when he
died and Durbrow took over?
Downey: No, I wouldn't say so.
Baum: You felt it was Just the same?
Downey: The Irrigation Districts Association, they're aggressive
and of course they were very s trong supporters of
my brother Sheridan in connection with the 160-acre
limitation and his fight on the Reclamation Bureau.
But I think they've been a very, very good organiza
tion and the State Engineers have always worked with
them. Harvey Banks works with them now. Hyatt used
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to work with them, Edmonston, all those people.
Baum: I know they are now aeainst the 160-acre limitetion.
Downey: Oh, very strongly.
Baum: I wondered if they were in Wagner's day. Of course,
it wasn't an issue...
Downey: I can't remember any time when they weren't against
it, if their attention was directed to It at all.
You see, there are so many men in these irrigation
districts that had more than 160 acres. I think
they're practically unanimous, as far as I know, the
association. Individual farmers may feel differently
about it.
Baum: Did they take any stand on public distribution of
power?
Downey: Yes, they were very rtrongly for public distribution
of power and the Irrigation Districts Act was amended
somewhere in there so as to give irrigation districts
the right...
Baum: Was that Modesto?
Downey: Probably Modesto. They were the bell-wether on that.
They certainly always supported that es far as I know,
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Baum: Somebody told me that they had switched over later.
During Wagner's time they had been for Modesto ac
quiring their own distribution system and after that
the I.D.A. had sort of teken the other point of view.
Downey: Well, I'll say this, there's quite a strong influence
in the I.D.A. among certain people there who are
public utility minded. They certainly are not as
radical about it now as they were in the earlier
days. I suppose if you'd take a vote now there
might be a good many people opposed to it, I don't
know.
Baum: Hasn't SMUD just joined recently?
Downey: I don't know.
Baum: I just wndered if SMUD had any influence on the
I.D.A. in that respect.
.Downey: I dr.n't think so. Certainly I haven't known about
it. I hear of those things if there's anything very
controversial about it.
Well, McCaffery, the manager, he doesn't want to get
into the public controversial issues, he's running
his business and doing a good job of it. When he has
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to slap knuckles of the P.O. & E. or they want to
slap his, they do it, but they don't get into any
thing unless it's warrented right in connection with
some particular question they are interested in.
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SACRAMENTO MUNICIPAL UTILITY DISTRICT
Formation of the Sacramento Municipal Utility
District to Provide Water
Baum: In 1921 the Municipal Utility District Act was passed
and I understand that that was in good part due to
Louis Bartlett. He was mayor of Berkeley at that
time and he was trying to organize the Best Bay
Municipal Utility District.
Downey: I didn't handle the actual formation of our district,
but I'm sure Louis Bartlett was active there, as he
was in so many of those matters.
Baum: Did you know Mr. Bartlett at that time?
Downey: Yes, I did. He was rather socialistic in his outlook,
you know. He was very much interested in. these
various organizations and I have no doubt that he did
have something to do with the formation of the district,
I might say that the district was originally or
ganized to provide clear water for the City of Sacra
mento, Silver Creek water, but it changed later on
to a power district. Thet came later in 1932.
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Baum: Oh, it started out as water?
Downey: That west he theory of it at first. They submitted
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some water propositions but they didn't carry.
Then, at the time the bonds were approved, 1933»
the Central Valley Project was being talked about
and they knew there would be power from Central Valley,
So then they submitted this issue for twelve million
dollars for power.
Baum: Then you feel that the idea of going into the electric
business didn't come up until the Central Valley
Project?
Downey: I don't think it did, Mrs. Baum. I wasn't active
with the district at that time. I was employed
immediately after the bonds had been carried. In
fact, I was active after the approval of the bond
issue. Up to that time it's my recollection that it
was only concerned with water.
Baum: And they didn't get their water?
Downey: No, that was turned down.
Baum: Then why did the voters vote for the district in the
first place?
Downey: Well, it takes a two-thirds vote to get the bonds.
There was some feeling that the water project was
unnecessary, we thought we had lots of vater in the
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river, bringing it down from Silver Creek would be
a very expensive thing. There was some question
about whether the engineering was sound. I might
just tell you that there was a good deal of feeling
that Bert Given, who was then the engineer for the
district, was rather extravagent. He was a fine
man. And P.G. & E. didn't want us to get into the
water business at that time. In fact, they didn't
want us to get into any kind of a business.
Baum: Back in 1923?
Downey: Even as far back as that.
Baum: Was there any idea that the Sacramento Municipal
Utility District would get into electric power back
in 1923?
Downey: Perhaps, but of course, the P.G. & E. always surmised
that these districts, once they get going, they go
from one business into another.
Baum: Well, I caji see why the P.G. & E. was against any
further development of municipal power.
Downey: And this particular section is pretty much the heart
of the P.G. & E. system. When you take the load out
that is supplied by SMDD here. But on the water end
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of it, it was more just a vague fear of what might
happen if they once got into the water business.
The city was already in the water business.
First Bond Issue
Baum: What was the impetus for SMUD to -get into the
electric business?
Downey: There were several things. One was Central Valley.
Baum: Was there any particular dissatisfaction with the
P.G. & E. at that time?
Downey: Only the dissatisfaction that is pretty common with
respect to all public utilities. Public utilities
are never loved. The idea was that when Central Valley
came in power would be pretty generally very, very
low and it could be acquired at that price. I might
add that there was another plan that was considered
under which the utility district would get one of
those PWA grants. Then the P.G. & E. would take the
water and sell us the power. One of those things
they are advocating in connection with Trinity, they'd
control the power in the final analysis.
Ickes was then Secretary of the Interior and he
was a tough man to deal with anyway. I knew because
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I had a number of contacts with him. We didn't
particularly want to do anything like that anyway
so it just gradually evolved around to a straight
power issue. Knowing that there were no generating
facilities, we'd just have to either take over the
system of the P.G. & E. or we'd have to build our
own, it was left entirely up to the voters at the
time of election. That is, twelve million dollars
to acquire and/or construct.
Baum: You weren't interested in generating power at that
time. It was just distribution?
Downey: Well, we talked about it, and it was talked about in
connection with this Ickes grant. And of course the
P.G. & E. was very anxious to have us go in on some
thing like that. They were willing to buy the power
from us, but they wanted essential control before
they got through with it.
B aum: They wanted to distribute it?
Downey: Just like they talk about buying the falling water
at Trinity now. They have to follow through these
things, I guess, but I've never seen them want to
give up their control. Except they do make contracts.
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They tried to make a contract with the Merced Irriga
tion District, that was then the San Joaquin Light
and Power Company, under which it wouldn't be our
power plant in the sense that we understand it now.
They're alert to their own interests.
Baum: Were any particular groups pushing this power issue,
like the Sacramento Bee?
Downey: Oh, the Sacramento Bee always. They've always
favored that policy, ever since C. K. was there.
They supported the bond issue very, very strongly
with all that progressiveness the Sacramento Bee is
noted for. They are a power politically here. I've
been their consulting attorney on a number of things,
C. K. in his will laid down the principles they were
to follow through on public ownership and they
followed right through with that. The Bee was un
doubtedly the strongest single factor on the bond
issue.
There were several organizations. The Grange
undoubtedly was supporting it and several of the
public ownership organizations.
Baum: Were there any individuals who were especially
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strongly in favor of it?
Downey: There were quite a number of individuals. I wouldn't
know just which ones to single out. Albert Elkus
was president of the board and he was very much of a
public ownership man. He had been mayor of Sacramento,
He was very strong for the water project in the first
place. Of course, George Sehlmeyer, the Grange man.
All of those organizations that are more or less
commonly supporting public ownership, they were quite
active.
Baum: Then the board of directors of the utility district
favored going into electric power strongly at the
time?
Downey: At the time they finally submitted that issue, they
figured they couldn't be successful in the water pro
ject and they figured power was the thing to do.
Baum: They felt they had to do something?
Downey: Well, that's probably true too.
Baum: I noticed that just about the time the bond issue
went through Elkus was succeeded by Royal Miller.
Downey: Yes, and Royal Miller since that time has been the
chairman. It's a funny thing. I think Royal
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originally had the idea that he'd better take over
this district to keep it from running wild. There
were lots of people there, you know, who were afraid
of the district going wild.
Baum: He was more conservative than Elkus?
Downey: Essentially he's a very conservative man. He and I
have had many a controversy politically, he being
a Republican and I a Democrat. He didn't like
Roosevelt, he didn't like the liberal policies. But,
like all men who get into a thing, he believes in
SMUD. He's almost fanatic on the subject. Even the
Republicans can be wrong.
Originally some people were worried about .just
what this Frankenstein might do, but I don't think
that any of us, and I do include myself, realized how
big it could become. Some people said the labor
unions were going to take it over and they never did.
We've been very careful on our labor relations there
and Royal Miller has been very helpful in that respect.
Of course the labor group favored very much the bond
issue. I think all labor unions favor public owner
ship. The city took over the buses here just recently
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and the labor unions were very strongly for that.
I suppose some of them thought they would get very
much better treatment. Well, the treatment of the
laborers there, the staff, the workers, has been ex
cellent. A good retirement system. It's been very
well done, but they haven't run away with it. Some
people thought the labor unions would Just demand
anything they want for compensation and get it, but
there's been no difficulty of that kind.
Baum: There was a time, I think about 193^-f when there was
a little trouble with the labor unions. I think
Royal Miller refused to make a contract with the In
ternational Brotherhood of Electrical Workers.
Downey: I think that's true. I'd forgotten that. I think
the labor policy is very sane.
Baum: Civil service type, isn't it?
Downey: Yes.
Baum: In this election of 1933 when you got the bonds voted,
did you take any part in the election itself?
Downey: Well, I was for the bonds.
Baum: Did you do any campaigning?
Downey: No. In fact, I knew what was coming to me so I kept...
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they told me at one time they wanted me to act for
SMUT) when it went into the water business. I was in
no oosition to do it then anyway, so I passed it off.
"Wait until we get those power bonds." Well, I was
employed almost immediately after the bonds were
carried,
Baum: I understand P.O. & E. put up a terrific fight against
the bonds,
Downey: That they did.
Baum: And there was an investigation and it was found they
spent $26,000, I think.
Downey: It was a lot of money. They couldn't get publicity
unless they issued letters or things of that kind.
They had ways of spending money. They know how to
spend money too.
Baum: It was Senator Garrison who requested the investiga
tion.
Downey: He was in the legislature.
Baum: I was wondering if you had any contact with him at
that time?
Downey: No, I have no recollection of any... I know Garrison,
have been in touch with him from time to time, but I
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have no recollection of having talked to him about
that.
Bond Validation
Baum: Then you came into the picture with the bond valida
tion fight.
Downey: Yes, almost immediately we filed a bond validation
suit. You don't expect those suits to be contested
unless there's something really questionable about
what's been done. But this was contested, and un
doubtedly the man who contested it and his attorney
were paid by the P.G. & E. I'm satisfied of that.
You couldn't prove it. Bond validation suits are
generally brought, kind of a proceeding in rem,
but that was contested.
Baum: You knew it would be, didn't you?
Downey: Well, we didn't know. The defenses were rather absurd
defenses, it seemed to me. They were technical de
fenses. Somebody had evidently worked that up, I
t ink, from the standpoint of the P.G. & E. and un-
doubledly retained an attorney who contested the suit.
Judge Olney came in leter on. He was a very fine man
too. I respected and admired him. But that case,
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there was no defense really and we validated our bonds,
Baum: You worked on that with Mr. Shinn.
Downey: Yes, I must mention Bob Shinn 's name. Bob was the
attorney for the district at the time of its forma
tion, and had been for many years. When I was
approached on this matter I told them I couldn't
possibly go ahead unless they still continued to re
tain Bob Shinn. He was rather an older man at that
time, a very, very loyal man. A good lawyer too.
So I went in. Really, Bob was the attorney and I
was .just the consulting attorney. That went on for
a year or so until after Bob's death. I can't re
member when he died. I'm sure it was well before
we had the decision of the Railroad Comrfission on
the evaluation. But he wasn't able to do very much.
Baum: Then he handled the formation of the district.
Downey: Yes, he did.
Baum: And you carried the bond validation?
Downey: Yes, I don't think Bob ever had much to do with the
bonds. He was associated with me, our names appear
together.
Baum: I was wondering what his background was.
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Downey: There were two Shinns who came to Scaramento, Bob
and another brother, A. L. Shinn, the older brother,
had a large practice here, an effective lawyer. Bob
was a little more sluggish and he didn't have so
much business and he wes very glad, I think, to get
tiiis retainer of SMUD. It didn't take too much of
his time, and yet it gave him a living. He did
good work, though, he wes a good man. But he was
pretty well out of the picture, I'^n pretty sure, be
fore we got into any of the really complicated bond
matters.
Baura: Was Judge Olney the attorney for P.G. & E. through
all this?
Downey: He represented the P.G. & E. when it came to the
litigation attempting to enjoin the bonds and I
think he took the appeal to the Supreme Court on
the bond validation suit. He appealed that from
the judgment validating the bonds. All these cases
go to the Supreme Court practically.
Baum: Had you worked with Judge Olney before?
Downey: Yes, I worked with him many, many yesrs off and on.
I'm working with him right now, not Olney because he's
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dead, but his firm. Sometimes with them and sometimes
against them, I was trying to recollect whether I
had any cases at or about this time with Olney. I
don't remember that I did. I had a number of cases
afterwards.
Baum: Did he usually in these cases represent the private
company?
Downey: Yes, he did in that case.
Baum: Was that the side he usually took?
Downey: I don't know. He was a man of high ethical standards.
His son, you know, is an Assistant Attorney-General
of the United States now. A very, very fine man.
Their ideals were of the highest and their standards
were of the highest and they're good lawyers too.
Baum: I know they handled a lot of the water cases in this
sts te .
Downey: They did and I'm trying to recollect — I don't think
they had any particuls r feeling one way or the other
about public ownership. They represented the P. G.
& E. in a number of matters.
Baum: Thomas J. Straub was associated with them.
Downey: Yes, Tom Straub was then the counsel for the P.G. & E.,
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another very old and dear friend of mine. He end
I went to Ann Arbor together. We had some wild
old fights. I never was on the same side as Tom.
Baton: Then you did have at least one friend here who'd
gone to school with you.
Downey: Oh, we were friends all right. Friendly enemies too.
Of course Tom, that was hla business. He was the
regular. . .P. G. & E. attorney. He finally became
their chief counsel and is now retired.
Valuation Proceedings Before the Railroad Commission
Baum: Weren't you pretty sure you were going to win these
cases against P. G. & E.?
Downey: On the bond issue, yes. I don't think they had any
ground to contest the bonds at all. But you never
know because those cases go through various courts
and finally end up in some form in the United States
Supreme Court and you never know Just what will
happen. But I thought we'd win them.
But the most difficult of all was to get a
valuation on the P.G. & E. properties from the
Railroad Commission. The amount, of course, would
determine whether we could take the property or not
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because we only had twelve million dollars in bonds
and it was quite possible the valuation would be
fixed at a price we couldn't afford to pay. I wasn't
at all sure of that until we got our judgment. In
the meantime the cese had dragged along so long that
they had additions and betterments we had to pay for
too. In the end we had to sell our bonds at a pre
mium to get enough money to satisfy the award of the
Utility Commission.
Baum: That valuation dragged on from 1938 to 19i^2 and then
the P.G. & E. contested the right of the Railroad
Commission to condemn in court. I appealed the evalua
tion case because I thought maybe the Supreme Court
would not allow them to include certain elements that
I didn't think should be included. The Supreme Court
refused to interfere with that. Then we had to file
a suit here in Superior Court to condemn the property
because the valuation of the Commission doesn't
determine our right to take the property. It merely
determines what we'll pay for it if we do take it.
That case was very hotly contested too by the P.G. 4 E.
and that went to appeal in the District Court of Appeals,
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
In the end we won that too. But those cases were
all more or less touch and go, although I never had
any doubt as far as some of the cases were concerned
that we would win them.
Then we sued them after all this was all over,
under a statute that provides that if any public
utility unsuccessfully attempts to enjoin the sale
of public ownership bonds you can recover the cost
and expenses. Well, we didn't get all the costs and
exoenses by a long ways, but we got quite a lot of
it. That went to the Supreme Court too and then to
the United States Supreme Court on the grounds that
was class legislation.
I was going to a sk you if you'd gotten any money back.
We got quite a little bit of it back. That hurt
them, that they had to pay some of our expenses.
This valuation proceedings that dragged on and on,
how did you go about... was most of this private
negotiation?
No, there were hearings before the Railroad Commission,
They are deadly dreary. One of the engineers said,
"There's no romance or sex appeal there." He was
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dead right. How much man power to dig a post hole?
All of the most dreary forma of appraisal entered
into the reporductlon cost new of this system and
the historical cost.
A great deal of this work was done in the field
by the engineers of the Corr-nission and by our engineers
We had some good engineers by that time.
I don't think there's been any case like that
in magnitude since our proceeding was brought.
Beum: Were there any attempts made to negotiate a selling
price with P.G. & E.?
Downey: No, we never got anywhere on that.
Baum: They wouldn't negotiate at all?
Downey: They wanted their system.
Baum: Someone had told me that most of these public utility
companies were willing to sell out if they could get
a good enough price. You don't think that was true?
Downey: Just take North Sacramento for example. When I went
in on that I thought we could negotiate a settlement
right away because the people were willing to pay a
good price and they had the bonds to pay them. They
didn't want to talk to us at all about that. I've
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never seen any of these public utilities that want
to sell.
Baum: You think when they fight they really fight, it's
not just a show to raise the price?
Downey: It's always been true with me, I know.
Baum: Franck Havenner was on the Railroad Commission.
Downey: Oh yes, and Franck was one of our best friends there.
Baum: And Richard Sachse.
Downey: Yes, he was strong. . .both Havenner and Sachse dis
sented from the opinion of the Railroad Commission.
We were satisfied with it way down deep, but we did
think maybe we could get by without the allowance
that had been made for going concern value and the
good will factor and so forth.
Baum: Oh, was that the difference? I know they thought
you were paying too much money and I wondered what
was the difference there.
Downey: They adopted our argument there. We thought so much
of it that we took it to the Supreme Court. Sachse
was a Culbert Olson appointee and he was very strong
for public ownership. A very good man too. He must
have been-he was on our side.
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Baum: Do you feel most of the other commission members were
against public ownership?
Downey: Well, I wouldn't e;o that strong. I think they were
inclined to look at it more with an open mind, more
of the private utilities point of view. No, I think
they were all good, sincere men.
Baum: People have said that many of the member of the Rail
road Commission are sort of henchmen of the P.G. & E.
Downey: You take a commission like that that has such enor
mous power over public utilities, there's always the
attempt by public utilities to acquire outstanding
influence there. There have been men on the commission
--I don't say any of these men were that type because
I don't think they were — over the years who have be
come rather public utility minded. Today, with Peter
Mitchell there, he's not that type at all. In fact,
I think his feelings have always favored public owner
ship, and he's fair. Take Dick Middlestaat, who's
retired now, same type.
There was one man went on the commission and
shortly after being on the commission he resigned to
take a high position in the P.O. & E. That was one
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of Warren's appointees. Earl told me that he was
very unhappy about that and Ifm sure he was. I
don't think he was dishonest, I think he made a big
mistake in doing that.
Baum: That's the kind of fact that is cited when they say
the Railroad Commission is for the P.G. &; E.
Downey: The P.G. & E. doesn't overlook a bet on those kind
of things. They like to b e friendly to the men who
control their destiny, so to speak. It's a power
ful organization.
Baum: It certainly is.
Downey: I was talking to the chief engineer the other
day. I took him to lunch. I was talking about several
of the people from P.G. & E. whom I have known and
been friendly with for many years. I told him that
some of my best friends had been there and I said,
"I like them. I respect them. I've fought with them
all my life. Most of my work has been in opposition
to the P.G. & E." We had a very nice little conversa
tion. He said, "Well, you're right about it. They're
all fine men, but of course they're loyal to the
P.G. & E." That is true. But I like them, I respect
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them, and I look out for them because they know
their business.
Baum: Well, the fact that you're friends probably makes
it possible for you to c arry on better negotiations.
Downey: I think so. I have a number of matters with them
right now. I'm representing the Hearst Company,
this big Wintoon Ranch on the McCloud River, almost
like San Simion. The P.G. & E. and one other pub
lic utility are trying to acquire their water rights.
We conduct those negotiations in a friendly way.
But I have to know what I'm doing because they certain
ly do.
If I have had any success, and I don't say I
have, the personal element doesn't enter into it at
all. I can fight about some issue or some thing
that I'm trying to do, but the personality, I can en
tirely overlook the personality. As I say, I like
these people, find them fine men.
Baum: Don't you feel that it helps for you to be friends?
Downey: Yes, I think it does, without giving anything at all.
Because you respect their motives too.
Baum: Did you feel this valuation, I think it was $11,632,000
was fair? P.G. & E. asked you for $18,000,000 to start
with.
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Downey: Yes, I think it was fair although we would have liked
to get it even lower than that. But we were satis
fied with it.
Baura: You fought that through with Martin McDonough.
Downey: I had a lawyer with me. That was one of the condi
tions under which I took the employment, a man by
the name of Marshall Taylor. He gave all his time
to it and worked with me and helped me very, very
much. Just before we got to the decision of the
Comnission, he left and went down to the southern
part of the state. We had to get somebody right away.
We Just had to take a man, take a chance on him.
Martin had been with the Legislative Counsel Bureau.
We just took him by guess. That was after the Rail
road proceedings were pretty well over, just before
we got into the court proceeding. And Martin was a
find. We hit the jackpot. He's become something of
a protege of mine. I have to say something about
Martin. My wife says, "What does Martin say about
this. What does Martin say about that?" (laughter.)
He's a very fine young man. He kind of saw the
glamour in these water matters and he's taken it up.
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I've had to throw him many, many cases just to save
myself and he's done a wonderful job. He's a comer.
He became house attorney for SMUD for a number
of years. Then he gfve that up to get into the field
of water law. Right now, when we have all these
hearings up before the State Water Rights Board, he's
carrying them on. He's an engineer as well as a
lawyer. I think he's the best man in the state on
water now.
Baum: And he hadn't been water when you got him?
Downey: No. He'd been with the Legislative Counsel Bureau,
drafting legislation. All fine training. But I had
no idea we'd ever get hold of a man like that. He's
now become indispensable.
Baum: So it was really this case that set him on the road
of water law.
Downey: Yes. Right after that we took possession of the
property he bacame the house attorney and on the legal
end of things he took hold wonderfully well. He con
sulted with me from time to time, now I with him.
Now he's back there doing consulting work that I
formerly did. An outstanding young fellow.
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Baum: All the wMle you were fighting these cases, did
that take all you r time or were you able to carry
on the rest of your practice?
Downey: I did other work, but it certainly. . .during the time
we had those injunction cases and proceedings before
the Railroad Commission, it didn't take all my time
but it certainly took 90$ of it. And I worked longer
hours then than I do now.
Baum: And that was all on a fee basts or a retainer?
Downey: Both. I'd bill them. It was kln<? of fnnny. Things
were a little mixed up, there was no organization at
that time. So way back at the inception of the pro
ceedings before the Railroad Commission decision, the
directors passed a resolution that I was to approve
all expenditures of any kind. For awhile I was the
whole show. I don't think at that time that anybody
thought the valuation would come out satisfactorily.
I had to laugh. McCaffrey, the manager gives
a little annual party and we have a few drinks. He's
quite a.*. I wouldn't say martinet, but he's very
strict on the affairs of the organization. So I said
I wanted him to hear a resolution that was oassed by
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the directors at one time and I got a copy of this
resolution where they had authorized me to approve
everything that was spent and whatever I said was
all right. That was before he came there. He
came to the district after we got started on the
Railroad Commission case.
Negotiations to Purchase Power
from the Central Valley Project
Baura: SMTD began operations on the first day of 19lj.7.
Downey: Yes, we had a little ceremony over there at the
court. The Judge signed the order that the
appellate court had approved.
Baum: Did SMtID purchase power from P.G. & E?
Downey: Yes, we had no generating facilities and Central
Valley power was being pretty largely bought...
P.G. & E. had contracts on that. It wasn't ready for
sale to us yet. Our purchase of Central Valley
Power came later. Over the opposition of P.G. &E.
Baum: Was part of your Job to negotiate a rate with
P.G. & E. for these first power purchases?
Downey: I think they had a contract rate there that we
accepted. Shortly after that they made an attempt
to revise all their rates, including ours. We
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had a fight with them on that. That was another
proceeding before the Railroad Commission. They
raised many rates, but not ours. The Commission
held that they were bound by the contract Ihey
had already made with us. Then came the opportunity
to buy Central Valley power,
Baum: Before that they'd lowered their rate because
Roseville had just signed to take Central Valley
power and I think P.G. &.E. came out a few days
later with a revised schedule of rates that was
considerably lower,
Downey: I think they did reduce those rates to some extent.
Baum: In 1952 the P.G. * E. and the Central Valley
both began to negotiate with SMUD in competition
with each other.
Downey: That was true. The P.G. & E. was very upset when
we signed our contract with the United States. Of
course, they would be because they couldn't give
us a rate like that. As I remember, McCaffrey wrote
to them and to the federal government and asked for
offers. The P.G. & E. and the United States were
to submit their offers at a certain time. What
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150
finally happened there, I don't recollect. In
the meantime we got this offer from the United
States and it was much better than the P.G. & E.
offer. They wanted to continue to negotiate.
Norman Sutherland, the manager of the P.G. & E.,
was most unhappy. But there were so many things
about that contract in addition to the price that
were favorable to t he district, we just couldn't
negotiate any longer with the P.G. & E. on that.
Baum: I understand that there was a lot of opposition
in the California legislature against SMUD taking
the contract with the United States.
Downey: There was opposition everywhere. The Republicans,
some of them anyway, didn't think we ought to make
a contract with the United States when we could
make a c ontract w ith P.G. & E. Lots of people
felt that same way about it»
Baum: What reasons did they give?
Downey: Oh well, it was socialistic, you know.
Baum: It seems to me that you had asked for competitive
bids and then you accepted the lowest bid, which
is good business. .
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Downey: We had. Aside from that, it was obvious that it
WPS to our interest to meke this deal. Then,
the Eisenhoser administration came in and the
whole thing was hung up again because lots of the
people in Washington didn't like it. I don't
think the Assistant Secretary of the Interior liked
it either. We had the fight pll over again in
Washington. We had hearings before Congress on
it. I rather credit Knowland with actually finally
getting the signature in Washington of the Secretary
of the Interior on our contract. I really give
him credit for that. He never said that, but I
think he interceded with the Secretary of the
Interior on that himself.
Baum: I would rather have expected Knowland to be
against this.
Downey: No, Knowland is conservative, but I've always found
him very, very helpful and right in these matters.
I think he's the man who finally pulled the card
out of his sleeve on that one. Kuchel helped.
Baum: One of the factors in the opposition to this SMUD
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152
contract was that the rates were too low and that
with these low rates it would not be possible for
California to purchase the Central Valley Project.
Downey: That wes one of the thing they talked about
all right.
Banm: Wasn't KnowQand for California purchasing the
Central Valley Project?
Downey: I don't know, I doubt it. Well, they never really
got to the point where it was really a clear
issue in Congress. Knowland probably did favor
that, but this other would only be a detail of
that. Whether we could buy Central Valley or not
would depend on a lot of other things.
Beum: Yes, except that a higher rate would permit
California to pay off the bill and a lower rate
would make it impossible .
Downey: Lots of the people who favored that purchase were
very much opposed to the contract, there's no
question about that. They had innumerable con
ferences about that and never did finally get
down to anything you could call an issue on it.
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Baum: Has SMUD taken any position on whether the State
should purchase the Central Valley Project?
Downey: No, except we want our contract honored.
Baum: Do you have any opinions as to whether it would
be better for the State or the federal government
to operate it?
Downey: It never looked to me like California could do
it. One of the things was people like my brother
who wanted to do away with the 160-acres limit
ation. It would have done that, but it never
looked feasible to me at all.
Baum: Too big a financial undertaking?
Downey: Too big, and why you'd give up the financing we
were getting from the federal government, throw
all that on the state itself, I could never see.
I never took any particular stand on it because
it never was clear to me just what they were
going to do
I talked t hat over with Earl Warren many
times. I think he looked at it like I did. Warren,
he's a very sane man. He was a good governor too,
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as he's now making a great Chief Justice.
Eaum: Getting back to SMTJD, did you feel that the
contract you were able to negotiate in 195^4-
as good as the one in 1952?
Downey: With the Central Valley Project?
Baum: Yes, with the Eisenhower administration.
Downey: It was the same contract finally. They okayed
it. We had a hard time of it. We finally met
over there at the Secretary of the Interior's
office with Knowland and Kuchel, all the top
brass. Knowland told me in advance what the result
was going to be. That was just a nip and tuck for
a long time. We didn't know what we'd have to do.
We were going into court if the Eisenhower admin
istration turned it down, but we didn't have to do
it.
But it is my own private feeling that Knowland
was the man responsible for it. Kuchel worked on
it too, both worked on it, and they helped us a
great deal.
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Management of SMUD
Baum: You've mentioned Royal Miller, the president of
the board of directors, who came in at the same
tij SMUD went into the power business,
Downey: Yes, he's still president. He's retired from
business now. He doesn't have much to do except
to carry on his interest in SMUD. He 's been a
tremendous power of strength. He's got a good
business point of view.
Baum: What was his business?
Downey: He was an automobile man, had Dodge and Plymouth
cars for many years. A man of great ability and
great energy. He has made a wonderful president.
I might say that the thing that has really
made SMUD successful had been management. Royal
Miller on the board of directors and there are
other men there that followed with him. He's
been the chairman and the man who has really
spoken. And James E. McCaffrey, the manager. The
whole staff, they have a v ery, very able and out
standing staff. There has been no attempt on the
part of the directors to take over tthe management
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of the thing. It has been c arried Just where it
should be by McCaffrey, with the assistance of
Royal Miller on policies. That has been the really
successful thing about it.
Soemtimes I worry a little about what might
happen if you get in a board that's trying to
work politics or something except to distribute
power. That has never happened yet. We have a
good board.
Baum: At the time Royal Miller replaced Elkus, was this
an attempt to keep SMUD conservative and going
along sound business principles?
Downey: Well, I don't think Royal ever did it quite that
way. But he thought they'd better watch this
district here which was obviously getting more
and more strength as t ime went by and which when
it once got into the power business with the
great block of power we have here, it could really
do many, many things.
Baum: When they have a election for members of the board..
Downey: I think we elected two directors this year. Royal
was one of them and Ted Labhard was another.
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There's an alternating system.
Baton: What kind of campaigns do they make? Is there
a lot of competition to be on the board?
Downey: There hasn't been. That has been one of the things
that has been good too. There's been practically
no contest for directors there for years. The
same men have served there for a number of years,
headed by Royal since Albert Elkus retired.
Baum: I was wondering if P.O. & E. tries to get men
elected to the board who might be against expansion,
Downey: Not that I know of, and I think I would know about
it.
Baum: You don't think they've enteredtiie campaign.
Downey: No, I don't think they have. They might at any
time, but with the Bee here, a militant paper like
that, it can spot things if there's any trouble.
Baum: Have they ever tried to influence the board members.
Downey: I think not. They know all of us and they know it
>»ould be a very hard thing to do in that wss. No,
I think they've played the game square all right.
Baum: Are the businessmen who run for the board... is
that a good position for a man to take? Does it
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have prestige or any advantage?
Downey: It's quite a responsibility. They don't pay much.
The only man who's paid is the manager and the
staff. It doesn't take too much time. Like
everything else, it grows a bit. They're certainly
going to get into a lot of new problems on this
hydroelectric development when they get to that
point.
Baum: Are businessmen eager to s erve on the board or do
they try to get away?
Downey: There's been no particular demand for that stall.
The same men have just kind of held on and there's
been no particular objection to them and so it's
gone through the years.
Baum: what sort of a man is James McCaffrey?
Downey: McCaffrey is not a public ownership man in the
sense that so many of these men are crusaders.
He was a administrator and an executive himself.
He just runs this a good deal like any good
executive would run a business. He has none of
that emotionalism that you sometimes find with
a public agency organization, including probably
ray own. He's not that type. He's a very able
administrative man.
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With the help of Royal Miller who has a lot
of business savy and Royal Miller's ability to
work with his board, it's been a great success.
There canbe no question about that, I'm very fond
of both those men as you probably understand,
Baum: Has SMUD taken any part in promoting public power
for other districts?
Downey: Well, I don't think they have. They're sympath
etic, of course. They certainly haven't taken
any position against it. McCaffrey's quite a
fellow to just run his own business. That's
why he's so successful at it,
Baum: Are the rates SMUD charges a s low as possible or
do you try to make enough of a profit to have
money for further construction and so on?
Downey: They've cut t heir rates, but at th« same time
McCaffrey's conservative and he plows a lot of
money back into construction, Tnerei3 been an
immense amount of that by reason of the extensions
here.
Baura: Do you have equal rates for household consumption
and industrial consumption?
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Downey: I suppose the rates are different.
Baum: Well, yes, of course they are, but sometimes you
can try to encourage industrial consumption by
lowering their rates and then charging it onto
the householders.
Downey: I don't think they're doing it now. Maybe they
should. That's one of my problems on the Port
District here because we've got to build up some
industries here. Maybe I'll be fighting SMUD
on that some time.
Baum: Then you don't think there's a policy of trying
to subsidize industrial use of power.
Dcwney: Not to my knowledge,
Baura: Now the city handles the water and the utility
district handles the electricity?
Downey: The itility district has been under a great d eal
of pressure to take overtiie water too, but they
are very much opposed to it. We have a very
excellent water service here in Sacramento. We
have no meters, we get ample water. I think
people are rather satisfied w ith our water system
now although there are people who keep maintaining
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that that should be taken over by SMUD. But
McCaffrey is very violentl^ opposed to it. He
doesn't want to get into the water business and
thinks it would not be a good thing to do.
Hydroelectric Development on the American River
Baum: That brings us up to the problem of the American
River development. First there was a contract
made with P. G. & E. for firming power.
Downey: Yes, we have that contract right now.
Baum: Rather than building your own steam plant.
Downey: ..e thought at one time we'd build a steam plant.
We've got to firm up the power because it's just
being exhausted. We contemplated building our
own steam plant. Well, there were many economic
objections to that. We had tried to get through
the legislature in past years legislation for
revenue bonds. Never got it through, largely
through the opposition, I think, of P. G. & E.
They're a power on that. So the first thing we did
was to enter into negotiations with P. G. & E..
under which they agreed to firm up our power when
we needed it and then they also agreed not to
oppose legislation which would give authority to issue
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162
revenue bonds based on hydro-power. Then that
legislation went through at t he last session of
the legislature.
Baum: Was that sort of a trade? You traded a contract
with P.G. & E. for them not to oppose your revenue
bonds?
Downey: Well, I wouldn't wnat to call it that, although
both factors undoubtedly entered into it. We
did want t o get hydroelectric power. We wanted
revenue bonds if we could get them. If we couldn't
get them on the basis of steam power we wanted
hydroelectric power. Anyway, we entered into this
contract and t hey amid they wouldn't oppose our
legislation and they didn't. They were true. I
wouldn't say there was an exact agreement between
the parties, but undoubtedly those things all
entered into it.
Then we get the legislation. Then we take
proceedings for the issuance of eighty-seven
million dollars in bonds.
Baum: Which are revenue bonds.
Downey: Revenue bonds only, based on hydroelectric power.
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Nothing on stear plant. Those carried 8 to 1. Again,
the Bee was one of the factors there on that vote.
Then we have to bring litigation there. That's not
the P.G. & E. at all. That's Just litigation to es
tablish our right to issue these bonds. We've got a
decision in that. Now, the next step is to get our
power and water permit so we'll be able to construct
our project and power license.
The proceedings are going on now on the issuance
of our permit and Martin McDonough is handling that
himself and doing a good job of it. We're trying
to get simply our power permit now and then we'll
sell our bonds if we can get our power permit and
license. Then all the other questions involving the
water rights on the American River, which are complex,
will have to be heard. I don't know when that's
going to end. I'm glad Martin's doing that now.
Baum: Why do you think P.G. & E. objected to your building
a steam plant but not to a hydroelectric plant?
Downey: I can't answer that. I don't know. I never thought
they would. There's some reason there. Maybe they
think we'll make a failure of our hydroelectric power.
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It costs a lot of money. I wish I did know.
Baum: You don't contemplate them entering any sort of
litigation against your American River project later
on?
Downey: Well, Mrs. Baum, now you're asking a hot question.
We haven't thought so and I don't think so now. But
when the State Water Board was in session last Thurs
day, suddenly it seemed that the P.G. & E. were pro
testing our power application. The air was hot. I
wasn't there at the time, but I had the word very
fast that it was time to get on .the bail. Well, it
ended in an adjournment until Wednesday, day after
tomorrow. Today McCaffrey is meeting with the
P.G. & E. They're going to talk over this thing.
I don't think they're going to fight it, but it could
be .
Baum: If you get your American River development all com
pleted, will you still need to buy firming power from
P.G. & E.?
Downey: It's possible, and we're hoping to get some more
power from the United States, Trinity. Of course,
the P.G. & E. is trying to get the falling water there
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And we're beginning to think about atomic power too,
by and by.
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RECLAMATION DISTRICT WORK
Present Problems of Reclamation Districts
Baum: I would like to ask you about your work with recla
mation districts. Do you think reclamation districts
are a dying institution?
Downey: No, I wouldn't say that.
You asked in this letter about what reclamation
districts do now. Well, like driving an automobile,
there's a constant correction you have to make. New
work has to be done. Maintenance work has to be done.
That goes on all the time. It's not like when they
were reclaiming the Sutter Basin land, that was the
Armour project. That was a fight, a battle all the
time until those levees were built. Litigation,
sometimes shotguns that weren't used. That's over
now*
You take the Sutter Basin Reclamation District,
that Reclamation District 15?00, they still have plenty
to do and I'm engaged right now in some law suits
they have brought. Those changes are constant.
But certainly as far as reclamation districts
are concerned, much of the groundwork has been done.
But they're not dying by any means.
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Baum: What kind of work have you, as an attorney for all
these reclamation districts, been involved in?
Downey: Let me mention what some of the reclamation districts
are that I represent. There's Reclamation District
10014-, 1500, 108,999, the West Side Levee District,
the Knights Landing Ridge Drainage District, oh,
there are probably a dozen more of those districts.
I'm in constant touch with them and they have their
problems.
Baum: And you attend their meetings?
Downey: Not all of them, but a greet many of them.
Baum: How often do they meet?
Downey: Take District 108, I'm thinking of that now because
they meet Friday of this week. They meet every
month. The Sacramento River West Side Levee District
meets every other month. I have to attend those
meetings .
Baum: If you attend all the meetings of these districts
you represent, doesn't that take up most of your time?
Downey: It takes a lot of time. I don't attend as many of
them as I used to, but it does take time. There are
always problems that come up.
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Baum: I was wondering how much of your time the reclamation
and irrigation district work takes now.
Downey: I would say about twenty-five percent of my time.
Baura: Is that mainly on a retainer?
Downey: Generally I'm on a retainer.
Baura: Can you give me some examples of the kind of problems
you deal with in your work with reclamation districts?
Downey: Yes. In district 1002, there's a question of drainage,
a very important question. Certain lands get drain
age and certain lands do not get enough. So the
lands that are not getting satisfactory drainage want
to have some drainage plan adopted by the district
that will drain their lands, and the trustees, don't
want to spend that money. Then you are confronted
by the question as to whether you bring law suit
and try to work it out by lawsuit, or whether to
change the personnel of the board and put in your own
people. That's the democratic way of doing things.
That's just one of the current problems, not too
big either. They are now considering whether they'll
bring proceedings to call an election of trustees.
I have to advise with them as to what they should do
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Baum:
Dcwney:
because I'm representing that group of landowners who
want the drainage. I have to see that the election
is properly called and held, I have to attend the
election.
Do you represent the district?
Not in this matter.
Now, in Reclamation District 108 not so long ago
we had quite a revolution. I do represent the district
there. Some of the landowners were dissatisfied with
the way that certain things were being done and they
called an election, and they elected a new board.
Then there were problems on advising the new board.
Sometimes we get thrown out. In this particular dis
trict I didn't. In District 15>00 we are trying to
recover market value for 5, 000 acres of delinquent
land that were sold at auction.
Well, there are constant problems. You see, in
a reclamation district they vote according to assessed
valuation, that is, every landowner has one vote for
e-yery dollsr of assessed value, and so the large land
owners control the district. Of course, very often
what the large landowners want, the smaller landowners
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don't, but the large landowners can generally control
the board. In District 108 the district is largely
controlled by a very few landowners, but nevertheless
the small landowners have some power. They can
cumulate their votes. In the 1500 district, the old
Sutter Basin project, one landowner has the most votes,
but other landowners generally combine to elect trus
tees who don't work with him. In that particular dis
trict we have a fight right now.
Ba mi: Is the main conflict usually over whether to do some
contruction or not?
Downey: That's all involved, but so far as the flood control
project is concerned, and that's the one that pretty
well dominates whatever work may be done on construc
tion, the Army Engineers do the work required in
construction of new levees or raising heights of old
levees or setting the levee back, that's all coordinated
in the interests of flood control and the Reclamation
Board has to furnish the rights of way. Generally
they call on the districts to provide rights of way
if the districts are interested in having the work
done. So what you have to do when that situation
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Baum:
Downey!
Baum:
Downey:
arises. . .well, right now it does arise in two or three
of these districts. The Army Engineers want to do
some work, the Reclamation Board wants the rights of
way and they are very anxious to have us help them
by securing the rights of way for them. We have
that question up right now where in a couple of the
districts they are not entirely satisfied with the
work that was being done. So by a process of com
promise, discussion, sometimes free for all meetings--
we haven't had many of them for a long time. We
reach decisions.
What sort of differences come up between the large
landowners and the small landowners?
Very often the large landowners want things done for
their interest and the small landowners don't want
them done. It means assessments, it may mean
assessments .
Say, a particular drainage project?
Yes. Or it might be drainage or many other things.
Reclamation District 108
Another problem is 108 which had a lot of money
which w« got by reason of the fact that we took over
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delinquent lands and became quite rich, when prices
went up. We had nearly 20,000 acres which had been
sold to the district for delinquency out of an area"
of perhaps f>0,000 acres, nearly half the land. We
were in desperate shape. But conditions got better,
the depression was over, and then we found that we
had acquired title to about 8,000 acres of very
valuable rice land, the cream. We accumulated several
million dollars. Then the legislature wanted us to
sell it and we had a big fight about that. We
didn't want to sell it.
Baum: These lands ere tax free, aren't they, when they are
owned by the district?
Downey: Yes, the state wanted it restored to the tax rolls.
Some of the legislators thought it was socialistic
for the district to hold that land. Anyway, that
problem is over. The legislature has finally decided
we don't have to sell that land so long as we pay
an amount equivalent to what the taxes would be on it
to the county.
But there's a lot of money. We farm that land
and there's a lot of income. Of course, there's
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
always a conflict where you spend money. Some of
the smaller landowners want it spent on their
property, some of the larger landowners want it spent
on their property. We spent it recently a little too
fest, I think. Others wanted to hold it as a reserve.
You spent it all?
No, not all. We're getting to the point whe~e we
wonder if we shouldn't stop and figure a little bit.
We've probably got a half a million dollars left
right now. We continue to get income from that land.
Of course, it's a been a good expenditure, not just
for the big landowner.
What percentage of the land in that district is
owned by the district?
There's about 8,000 acres andthe district contains
50,000 acres, so that's substantial, but it's not
a big percentage.
Why didn't the board of trustees want to sell the land?
Here they are farming the property. The income is
tax free and if they sell it that would simply mean
it would go off their rolls and you conldn't begin
to get the value because the purchaser would hsve to
pay taxes.
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Baum: But now you have to pay the taxes anyhow?
Downey: The district doesn't pay any taxes. Well, we pay an
amount equivalent to what the county would have
assessed this property for, but that is very small
compered to what you would pay for income taxes.
Baum: Oh, the income tax is what you save.
Downey: And that would be very heavy.
Baum: And the fact that the district owns this land reduces
the assessments on the other landowners. Is that
right?
Downey: Yes, as a matter of fact, we have, and I think we
are the only district in the state that has, we pay
nothing for maintenance because the money derived
from farming our own property pays what would other
wise be an operation and maintenance charge against
the landowners. I guess probably there may be some
other district in that good position, I don't know.
We've had no maintenance assessments for many years.
Baum: You don't feel this is sort of a Socialistic trend
to have districts own property like this?
Downey: I had one senator in the State legislature who main
tained this whole thing was socialistic and he was
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determined that we'd have to pay taxes on it. No,
I don't think it's socialistic, but what do you mean
by socialistic? I remember when I was a boy in
college they used to say that I was socialistic.
Baum: I suppose you are accused of that working for SMTD too.
Downey: Oh yes, SMUD is said to be socialistic, so many good
things are said to be socialistic.
Reclamation District Assessments
You could cite instance after Instance where
the reclamation districts now have problems they
have to meet and things they have to do. There was
one little district — that was out near the H Street
Bridge, near the American River. The theory was
that when Folsom Dam was built we would have flood
control on the American River, that is to say,
Polsom would take care of the flood control on that
land and dispense or reduce the by-pass. As a
matter of fact we've got to have both flood control
and the by-pass and we've got to have some levees.
This is a small district, a valuable district, right
near the City of Sacramento. They have problems
necessary in order to build these levees and maintain
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Baum:
Downey:
them. The Army Engineers will build the lfvees,but
the maintenence is very heavy. So we're trying to
work out some plan there under which the cost of
maintaining those levees can be spread over a much
greater area, either by consolidating with the
American River Flood Control District, or by forming
some kind of a maintenance project the state will
take over. The Reclamation Board can form a main
tenance project and spread the cost over a big area
and ver^ much reduce what would otherwise be almost
confiscatory as to certain of the smaller landowners
in this district I'm speaking of.
Aren't the assessments in a reclamation district
based on the value of the construction to the particu
lar area of land?
Generally in the past they have been spread on a basis
of benefit. Recently there has been a law, there are
some limits to it, but the law provides for maintenance
assessments, which also were levied in accordance with
benefits, to b e based on ad valorem assessments of
lands in the district. In that particular district
that's been a very good thing because it would hardly
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pay to levy a benefit assessment against all these
lands. It costs money to levy all these assessments,
money for engineers and lawyers and a lot of other
costs. So they do levy an assessment now for main
tenance based on the ad valorem value of the property
as shown by the taxes. Thet hasn't been used to a
great extent but is being more and more commonly
used.
Baum: Spreading the assessment under the old system must
have been very expensive.
Downey: It ran into a lot of money. The common practice was —
let's say, take the Reclamation Boerd, it was the
same situation. We had one assessment we figured would
cost eight million dollars, estimated that as the
cost. As a matter of fact these estimates were near
ly always exceeded. I imagine in that case it ran
up to twenty million, I don't know. Then you call
in assessors. In this case we used Etcheverry, who
was the professor of irrigation and drainage at the
University, a dear friend of mine who has recently
died, ajid two other men. They determined how much
each piece of land within the area benefitted by
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this improvement would pay. Having gotten that far
then YOU think you can't make these calls two or
three times a year so you bond the whole thing, issue
bonds, and that's a lot of work and involves a lot
of legal and other problems. That's what we've done
in this particular assessment I speak of, but of
course everything blew up before we got to the point
of calling this assessment because we got aid from
Congress. But it costs money, you bet. Attorneys
have to live and engineers have to live.
Baum: In the financing of these reclamation districts,
originally they issued warrants .
Downey: Yes, sometimes they issued warrants without ever
levying an assessment. The theory was this, that
whenever they had determined to levy an assessment
they could issue warrants and then later on when the
assessment was levied and the money had been paid,
they could take up the warrants. There was some
pretty frenzied financing because the contractors
would come in and bid on the work and they would
add a lot to their contract because they were getting
only paper at great big discounts to negotiate and
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that is one of the reasons this work cost so much,
Now, as far as any district I'm interested in is
concerned, we don't issue any warrants until after
we have made arrangements for the assessments and
perhaps for the issuance of bonds to avoid that
thing and I'm sure it's been helpful. But in the
old days they were so anxious toget things underway
and get things going and it was very essential that
they did too,
Baum: Do you feel the issuance of warrants in the old
days was inadequately controlled?
Downey: I think it certainly added a great deal of cost onto
the cost of reclamation. In one district I acted
for some of the warrantholders, (which I generally
don't do, I don't like to represent the warrant
holder or bondholder) I had to represent the bond
holders, that is to say, the people who actually got
the bonds and who in turn had taken the warrants
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from the contractors, and there was a big differential
there, they took them for more than was represented
by useful work. What happened was that people wouldn't
pay. Of course, you can go through court and try to
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180
make them pay, but that's not a nice thing for a
big agency representing a lot of landowners. More
over, sometimes your heart's not in your work. But
in that particular case we finally reached a settle
ment under which the bonds were taken care of.
Baum: Did you settle for part payment?
Downey: Yes, it was for about fifty cents on the dollar as
I recollect.
Comparison between Irrigation Districts and
Reclamation Districts
Baum: I've heard reclamation districts criticized for not
having sufficient control over the board of trustees.
Downey: Well, it's certainly the larger landowners of reclama
tion districts who control the trustees. Sometimes
they're more interested in their own particular land
than anything else. In an irrigation district every
registered landowner has a right to vote so the con
trol is not in the bigger landowners. On the issuance
and certification of their bonds, that requires the
assent of the District's Securities Commission to
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certify bonds. Yes, there is much more control in an
irrigation district. The control of reclamation
districts, andthere are other types of districts,
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through a vote of the assessed valuation is very
questionable in many cases. But as a rule attain
I'll say this, the larger landowners are interested
in a safe district. But I've had my fights.
Baum: Do you think the irrigation district method of one
vote per landowner is better?
Downey: I think the irrigation district control is very much
more democratic and I have found in my representation
of irrigation districts, there are exceptions, I
have found the trustees very fine... A meeting of
the board of trustees of an irrigation district is
a good deal like a town hall meeting. If there's any
very important issues all the landowners are there
to express themselves in no uncertain terms. A
reclamation district can be quite different. But in
the main now, I think the reclamation districts are
necessary for the development of lands in the Sacra
mento Valley. That's more particularly where they
flourish.
Baum: I've heard that the trustees sometimes engage in
speculation with the warrants and bonds and enrich
themselves to the detriment of the public. Have you
found this to be true?
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Downey: No. There probably are cases where that Is true.
Very often people will come to me contemplating the
organization of some district. What law shall we
operate under? That's the first question. They
have to crnsider whether they want the control in
the hands of the large landowners or whether they
want it in the hands of the registered voters. All
those things require analysis, depending on what the
particular problem is.
But I'll say this now, I think the reclamation
districts were probably essential in the earlier
days here. I think they did a great work. They made
mistakes, at times they spent too much money, but
they have written a lot of the history of California
which might not have been written if all the landowners
had an equal share in the operation of the district.
I've represented many of these reclamation districts,
and a good many irrigation districts too. I certainly
enjoyed my work with irrigation districts,
I talked to you about Merced. That was a great
district, they were great people, and I think the
directors were great men. They were a little uncouth.
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Baum:
Downey:
They could swear at the landowners and the landowners
could swear at them, but I think they did a great
work. When we came to refinancing I think they did
a great work too. I told you about this juror in
one of my cases who was one of the farmers down there
who said, "By God, no, it ain't right." And he got
what was right too. They could be pretty tough, but
they were good. I've always liked those meetings.
They were big, big problems and they were handled,
I think, fairly. Sometimes we had to argue with
them about certain things that were done, but I think
it was a very creditable, democratic organization.
Again, your irrigation districts, at least the ones
I'm representing now, they have problems but nothing
like we had in Merced in those hectic days.
Every one is financially solvent now, aren't they?
Oh, that's a tremendous advantage. Take for example
the East Contra Costa district, I've represented
many years. We have this problem. They have always
gotten their water out of the San Joaquin River, a
very, very valuable right and their records are per
fect. Now Central Valley comes in and from now on
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
they don't get the water from the San Joaquin River,
they get the water from the stored water from Shasta.
Are they losing their rights or are they not? I have
to see that thev don't lose it. It's a problem.
They are getting a substitute supply of stored water.
And they want it free.
Well, they have an appropriative right which is
superior to ajiy rights of Central Valley. That's
one of our problems in connection with water rights
on the Sacramento River. But are they being a^ versed,
is the Central Valley taking away the water which
they had from the San Joaquin River by a new source
of supply? True, they give them a substitute supply,
but are they getting a right to that? I guess
it's impossible to go through life and not have our
oroblems, whether they're reclamation districts or
irrigation districts or just personal.
Some reclamation districts like the one you mentioned
that was organized by the Armour interests to reclaim
large areas of land... did you find that most of the
reclamation districts were formed by a group of
people who wanted to reclaim land or just by landholders
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who were already there?
Downey: Of course, Armour, that was a vast real estate
project of his and after he got it reclaimed he
couldn't sell the land. Later they've sold a
great deal of it. It was rather common for big
landowners who were interested in the reclamation
of big areas of land to organize a reclamation
district. You take Reclamation District lOOlj. up
near Colusa, originally a big group of landowners
owned most of that land and then they formed the
district and they controlled the board. I don't
know, I suppose that control has passed now in
reference to that particular district, but it
was very common to do that.
It was common in the irrigation districts too.
Take Merced. The Crocker-Huffman Land and Water
Company, that was a big public utility, they
certainly provided what was needed, promotion, to
get this district organized.
Baum: Considering that it was large landowners or large
real estate enterprises that started these things,
perhaps there wouldn't have been such a great
development of the Sacramento and San Joaquin
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valleys If they'd left it to small landowners.
Downey: That's true. They had the organization and the
know-how to organized these things and generally
they put up money too. I don't know if Crocker-
Huffman put up money on that or not, but the result
was that after they got the district then the
district bought their system and they made money
on that. I don't say unfairly or that too much
was paid. But they were ridding themselves of
a very great problem in supplying these people
with water and they got rid of their system which
became the start of the Merced Irrigation District.
Refinancing Problems of Irrigation
Districts and Reclamation Districts
Baum: There was a commission, the California Irrigation
and Reclamation Financing and Refinancing Commission,
established which studied the problems of irrigation
and reclamation districts and issued a series of
recommendations for new legislation in 1931*
Fred Kiesel was one of the members.
Downey: He was the president of the California National
Bank. He's dead now. He was a financial power
until those banks busted in 1933.
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Baum:
Downey!
Baum:
Most of the work on that commission was done
by Harmon Bonte. I know him quite well. He was
the consultant for the California Irrigation
and Reclamation Financing and Refinancing Commis
sion. If there was legislation that grew out of
this I don't know what that legislation was... well
there's a lot of legislation through the years. We
had one when I was with the Merced Irrigation
District where we limited the assessments to what
the lend could pay. That's what some of my good
friends called the "Downey law". The assessment
would be approved by this commission andtiiat it
should not exceed the ability of the lands to pay.
That was very bitterly fought by bondholders and
gradually faded out of the picture because of
the fact that the districts were ultimately re
financed, that is, Merced was.
Does this Law still exist on the books?
No, I don't think so.
One of the recommendations of this commission was
that the district be permitted to operate or lease
delinquent lands that they had taken over.
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Downey: I remember that legislation.
Baum: That's what your District 108 did was to take over
the delinquent lands and operate them*
Downey: That's true. In the irrigation districts it was
made so that the district could assign, as I
remember, even the collector* deed. Some of those
things were done at the request of the Reconstruction
Finance Corporation which was loaning money to
these districts.
There's similar legislation respecting
reclamation districts. We take over the property
when it's delinquent for a year, that's the re
clamation district,
Baum: But then you operate it, or lease it?
Downey: Yes, we operate it. We get a deed afterthe period
of redemption has expired andttien that's our own,
Just like we did in 108 with those 8,000 acres of
rice lands.
Baum: What happened to the lands before the district
had the right to take the deed or operate it?
Downey: That was always every difficult t^ing. The land
would be delinquent, the taxes wouldn't be paid
within the period of time of the legal limit.
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189
During the period of time before the district was
entitled to the deed you had the problem of getting
the landowner out of possession. He'd frequently
stay there. Then you had the question as to whether
If you did get the land and farm it, all the
proceeds would go to the bondholders. That pre
sented every difficult problem. In any event, so
far as reclamation districts are concerned, they
took a deed when the period of redemption, one year,
had expired, that was their property. In Irrigation
districts it?s three years for redemption.
Baum: And after that the original landowner has no claim
to the 3and?
Downey: Not after the deed is made. First they assign
collector's deeds, or they take collector's deeds
in favor of the district. Later on (three years)
they take a deed to the land Itself and the redemption
period Is gone. In 1933 there was a statute passed
prohibiting the trustees of a reclamation district
from selling the lands they had acquired to anyone
but the former owner. That was declared uncon
stitutional, I think.
Baum: Yes, That was a case you were Involved in, wasn't
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it?
Downey: Yes, that was one of those measures that was passed
by the legislature to alleviate the troubles arising
from the depression, to try to keep the original
landowner in possession. That was one of the problems
always, to keep the men there farming land and keep
ing it in production if possible. If not in produc
tion, farm lands go bad very rapidly.
Baum: I was wondering if you thought that was a fair thing
to do to only permit the former owner to repurchase
the land, or should it be sold to anyone?
Downey: I thought that was a fair thing. I was very much
in favor of that legislation. You just couldn't help.,
you know, your sympathies were with the landowner.
On the other hand, the courts had to consider that
the bondholders had rights and if the landowner could
go right into possession and use the land, why, of
course, the bondholder or the creditor wouldn't get
the return. There was a lot of that legislation dur
ing the depression which just turned the rights of
the bondholders upside down. Genera lly I was on that
side and sometimes I prevailed and sometimes I didn't.
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In the case you mention the law was held unconstitu
tional.
Baum: In most of the reclamation districts you've been in
that had delinquent lands, when those were finally
returned to private ownership did they go back to
the former landowners or to somebody else?
Downey: Generally to the former landowners.
Baum: Was that a policy of the districts?
Downey: Well, they had the right to sell lands and very
often, very commonly, they wanted to sell them to
the original landowners. They wanted to keep the
landowner right in possession of the property and
sometimes they'd give him a break. Yes, generally
that is right.
Baum: That they returned to the original landowner?
Downey: That required sometimes a little finesse.
Baum: Yes, I should imagine most of those landowners would
be broke and unable to repurchase their land until
they had something to work with.
Downey: Sometimes they got a little better terms. I don't
know, looking back on the depression, (black as the
war, I wouldn't go through a depression again if I
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192
help it), there were many things done, there
was a lot of sharpshooting on behalf of the security
holders, there was a lot of cutting corners on the
part of the district. We all wanted the landowners
to stay on the land. In fact, I always felt that
nothing could be successfully worked out unless you
kept the farmers on the land.
Baum: Were there any efforts, by members of the boards of
trustees maybe, to get the lands themselves?
Downey: Not in any district I represented. I had occasion
when I've had to say "You can't do that." Of course,
they're disqualified to purchase land themselves, if
they're one of the trustees of the district. There
have been cases when I've had to say "You can't do it,
By God, no, it ain't right."
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AMERICAN RIVER FLOOD CONTROL DISTRICT ACT - 192?
Baum: You said you drafted the American River Flood Control
District Act back in 192?.
Downey: 192? or 1928. A.S I remember that, we had a big flood
in North Sacramento. I think that was the flood of
1929, maybe 1928, right around in there. They had
to do something about flood control in North Sacramen
to so we got a special act through the legislature, I
handled that, organizing the American River Flood
Control District which is still functioning, operated
very successfully too. I still act for them. There's
one thing in that act that's rather different, we have
the zone method of assessments. Thst is, they adopted
a plan common to all these districts and then they
levied an assessment and then the assessment was spread
by the assessors, again Etcheverry, by zones. There
were certain reasons why that was necessary. The
City of North Sacramento would take a certain percent
age of the costs and some other area would take a
portion of the costs. We hari to go to the Supreme
Court on that toget that approved. That was a very
necessary improvement.
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Generally speaking, we had the support of all
the landowners except a few who didn't want to get
into the district, didn't want to pay us assessments.
They were excluded from the district, we kept them out.
We issued bonds and sold them to the State Department
of Finance. It was a good deal except they got too
high a rate of interest. Did you know Al Heron,
Director of Finance under Young. I worked with him.
An able man. He's now with Schwabacher-Frey, I think,
or maybe with Crown -Zellerbach. He ran a good bargain
for the state, but we were desperate, we had to sell
those bonds. Thst was during the depression and no
body would buy our bonds. We gave him 6$. I wish
I could get some of those bonds now and I wish I had
some money to buy them. They won't sell them now.
They're a good bond. The City of Sacramento is one
of the zones. Of course their credit is very, very
high. When the depression came, and it was colossal,
I knew these districts very well. I knew which ones
would eventually pay out without any question and
which were going to be temporarily embarrassed and
which were going to take losses as the Merced District
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did. But I had people offering bonds to me at prices
that were just horrifying. They'd offer to sell their
bonds without any interest or at 50$ of the principal.
Baum: You were representing the districts?
Downey: I was representing the district. I couldn't do any
of that work. It would have been the easiest thing
in the world to make several fortunes if you had a
few dollars to put down on bonds like that because
now you can't get those bonds at anywhere near the
rate stipulated in the bond or... you see, they're tax
free. When I think of what was offered to me and the
temptation I resisted. I might have been a millionaire
Well, anyway, I'm not. But that was just common,
Baum: Did you feel that you had to not purchase those bonds
because you represented the district?
Downey: Well, I don't knrw whether I should have or not. I
suppose I could have. There wasn't any reason why I
shouldn't have the bonds in if I could at a cheap
figure. It tended to peg the price anyway. I didn't
feel I ought to deal in the securities of districts
I was representing. Maybe I should have.
Baum: The trustees are not allowed to deal In the securities,
are they?
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Downey: I think they were In the same position. If they
wanted to buy a bond I don't know why they couldn't,
if they could get the bond cheap. They couldn't on
the original sale of the bond, but after the sale had
been made and the bond had passed into private owner
ship, I would certeinly have advised them to keep away
from it, but I don't know if it would have been un
ethical. Certainly it wouldn't have been illegal to
buy a bond. But the one thing I did think about, I
was fighting with the bondholders all that time and
I didn't want them to think that I was trying to run
down the value of their securities. Anyway, I
didn't have very much money at that time. I didn't
do it anyway.
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197
CENTRAL CALIFORNIA IRRIGATION DISTRICT AND
TULE LAKE IRRIGATION DISTRICT
Baum: It must have been quite a little battle to get the
Central California Irrigation District organized.
Downey: I must say, most of my important matters have been
battles. That's one where I worked with C. Ray
Robinson. Ray is the attorney in Merced who now
represents the Merced Irrigation District. He and
I worked together for a great many years. He's the
man you read about a good deal in the papers, these
big lawsuits against Miller and Lux. He does a lot
of things, generally with big money.
Baum: This district was against Miller and Lux, wasn't it?
Downey: It really wa«. What we did, we wanted to take control
of the public utility system that supplies water to
people around Merced and Fresno and Stanislaus County.
Of course, that was opposed by Miller and Lux and the
people who controlled that corporation. That was rather
a rich corporation.
Baum: Why did the landowners want to take control themselves?
Downey: They thought they could get the water much cheaper.
Baum: They thought the rates were too high?
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198
Downey: They had many, many controversies before the Public
Utilities Commission as to these rates. I had been
more or less involved in some of these matters. I
spoke to you about the San Joaquin Water Storage Dis
trict where I represented the people who got water
from that system. Nothing ever came of that.
Baum: Was this the same system? Was this a previous attempt.
Downey: There was this system which was owned by Miller and
Lux, at least at that time. They supplied this very
large area of land, I think it was the biggest water
public utility in the state at that time. If not the
biggest, certainly one of the biggest. And it was
wealthy. And there were innumerable controversies
between the landowners under that system and the com
pany. The San Joaquin Canal Company. Ray Robinson
then carried on that fight for a great many years
acting for the landowners under that system, the con
sumers. They had many fights. Ray is a good promoter
and he conceived the idea of organizing a district and
taking over the whole system by purchase from Miller
and Lux. So he got me to help him on the organization
of the district.
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Baum:
Downey)
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
That was a fight. We organized an irrigation
district, and then we included all the land in the
irrigation district. We had to go through court, we
went through the appellate court on that. Finally
the organization was upheld.
Then Ray took over the matter of trying to make
a deal with the company under which the company would
sell the system to the district. He finally did, much
to my surprise. I don't think anyone would have done
it except Ray. He's a forceful fellow. He has a way
of stampeding people. I think the district paid
about four million dollars. Something like that.
That's right. %,200,000.
The district paid that for the system and I think gave
them bonds of the district. Since that time I've done
nothing on that and I haven't seen Ray Robinson for
some time, but I think the district is getting along
very well.
I think that district was organized in 19!?1 and I
understand the vote was by a very slim margin.
Yes, Miller and Lux fought it very, very herd.
I wondered what kind of propaganda you used and what
kind they used.
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200
Downey: We'd tell them they'd own that system and that again
would ^e tax free, wouldn't have to nay taxes on
the properties. They can operate the system much
better than a lot of landowners who are more or less
nonresident and don't care anything about the trouble
they put to the dirt farmer. They said they were
doing much better than we could ever do. There's a
files of that stuff somewhere on the propaganda that
was put out. That was a good lob. I did do most
of the work on the organization of the district,
but Ray handled the rest of that.
Baum: Did you do mostly legal work, or did you get out...
Downey: No, I didn't do any of the propaganda work, except
I advised. We had a publicity man I had to advise
with on the paper articles and that sort of thing.
Mrs. Baum, these things seem so kind of
trivial to me now, but they didn't at the time.
Life was still quite an adventure to me at that time,
law practice, though it's getting gradually more
commonplace as I get older.
Baum: Can you tell me about the Tule Lake Irrigation District?
Downey: That's one I've almost forgotten about. All I did
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201
Baum:
Downey :
there was form that district In 1951. I don't
know how they're getting along, I think all right.
Well, that really wag Just one of those big
reclamation projects and it was necessary, in order
to get the thing on some kind of a buslnes stoasis,
to form an irrigation district.
Were there any problems involved?
I think there w ere a lot of them but I can't
remember what they were now. Only technical pro
blems.
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SACRAMENTO PORT DISTRICT
Downey: There is one thing I omitted to tell you anything
about. We have a district here to build a deep-
water channel. We are in the process of building
that channel now and it requires a lot of money
from the federal government, it is dependent upon
appropriations. It's a big public project. My
son is doing all the work now. I just sit around
here and take life easy.
Baum: You represent the Port District?
Downey: Yes, Right now we're condemning a great deal of
land in order to build the project, I think the
project was adopted by the federal government
79th Congress, Second Session. It goes back to
19ij-7 • Then the Korean War came up and they stopped
the appropriation and they've resumed them now,
Baum: Have you had to go to Washington about that?
Downey: I talked it over with Tom Kuchel and Bill Knowland,
I haven't made any trips to Washington myself on
that. The Port executive has. He's gone back
to Washington every now and then,
Baum: And are Knowland and Kuchel the ones who are pushing
it in Washington?
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Downey: Oh, very much, and John Moss, our Congressman, We
have now a hearing on the budget. We've got two
appropriations anyway.
Baum: You mentioned that you felt there wasn't enough
Industry here in Sacramento.
Downey: That's right. They make a survey to determine
benefits to costs. We didn't have enough industry.
So much of our industry now is in the military
field. If they should shut down it wouldn't be
very nice. So we have been rather pressed to get
more industry here in order to build up that
benefit. We're still trying to get them and we
expect to. Those questions are infinitely com
plicated. Our rivers here are ideal sites for
industry, which again brings up the problem of
polluted water. They started to put a paper plant
up at Red Bluff about a year ago and I represented
the City and we had to fight that. We didn't
want the water polluted. I fought the case through
and they finally dropped it.
Baura: And they're not polluting the water now?
Downey: No. There's no industry here to speak of. But
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it may break anytime. One of the men at the Water
Pollution Board told me the other day that the
thing may break like a bomb with ell kinds of
industry*
Baum: Why do you want a deep-water port here?
Downey: It certainly would be very helpful in the rates.
We could get terminal rates for one thing tfiich
were taken away from us recently. It would
undoubtedly be of tremendous benefit to have a
big port here.
paum: Do you think that would bring industry here?
Downey: It would bring industry. There are so many values
that come from a port. The Stanford Research
Department made a study of this thing a while ago.
That was at the request of the Stockton Port. They
didn't want us to have a port here. They have a
port of their own which is Just now beginning to
work. I don't think the research report was Just
what we wanted but it hasn't hurt us in Congress
yet although it was circula ted back there with a
view of stopping our appropriation. But a port
here, a deep-water channel, would be a shot in the
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205
arm here, to all Northern California, all the
counties,
Baum: And you think the advantages would exceed the cost
of building this thing?
Downey: Well, the report of the Army Engineers showed
that the benefits would exceed the cost, but the
ratio is not as big as we thought it should be«
We can change that by getting more industries here*
"aum: Congress wants you to g et the industry first, I
suppose, and you may have to get the industry
afterward.
Downey: Well yes.
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Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
COMMENTS ON THE CALIFORNIA WATER DEPARTMENT
Do you think the Division of Water Resources has
done as much toward the development of water in
California as they might have, or should have?
I think so. That's all taken over now by the new,
reorganized Water Department.
I understand that you were proposed as head of
that new Water Department*
If I was I didn't know it. Nothing very serious,
No, I wouldn't have been competent to do that
work. That requires an engineer.
That's Harvey Banks.
He's an able man.
You weren't seriously considering the position?
No. I wasn't. I couldn't have accepted it. It's
not a lawyer's job. Harvey's got a terrific pro-
lem there. He's a good man, and a young man,
a man with great energy, and an ambitious man. A
good engineer surrounded by good engineers. But
he's got a problem nevertheless.
Perhaps it requires en attorney more than an
engineer.
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Downey: Well, one of my friends from SKUD wanted that
position. At least he said he would take it if
it was offered to him. He had many qualities that
he could have used very well there. He had the
political point of view and it requires a politician
too, but I think Harvey was tthe right choice for
that.
Baum: Is Harvey Banks a politician as well as an
engineer?
Downey: No, but he understands public relations.
Baum: He would have to. And is he somewhat of an attorney
on his own?
Downey: Well, they get to be pretty good attorneys on
water law. There are several men who work with
him who are very, very good.
Baum: '"'hat about the past? 15o you think in the past the
State Engineers have been aggressive enough
about having the state set the policy?
Downey: Well, I never knew W.P. KcClure, except to speak
to. I was very close to Ed Hyatt, both as the
State Engineer and a s a friend. I was very fond
of him. He was a man of great tact, he did a good
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Job, Paul Bailey came in there. I knew him quite
well. He did a good job. I think they've had
good State Engineers. Then came Editions ton,
Edmonston I was also very fond of, Edmonston
could be very blunt at tiroes, but I think he did
good work too, although the pressure of that work
bore down on him a food deal. He'd had some injuries
earlier in life. I haven't seen him for some
time. He has been sick.
No, I would say that Hyatt and Edmonston and
to a lesser degree Paul Bailey, I don't'think
he was there too long, I knew all those men
intimately and they did fine work, I don't think
anybody can do perfect work with all the problems
and they're getting bigger and bigger. Harvey's
just inheriting a lot of problems, I think as
far as he's concerned the story is Just being
written*
One thing has been talked a bout a lot here in
the last few years is the state taking over the
Central Valley Project. That was undoubtedly very
strongly favored by the Irrigation Districts
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Association, some of the people who were key-
figures there. The P.O. & E. wanted it. All the
people who were opposed to the 160-acre limitation
wanted it. Personally, I couldn't ever see how it
would be possible to do that, the expense was
tremendous. As long as the federal government is
financing it and it is necessary that somebody
does, I couldn't believe in the state taking it
over. Warren agreed with me, I know that because
I discussed it with him,
Baum: Warren didn't take any special part in that state
take-over. .,
Downey: He did as he did in all matters. He was inter
ested in getting such information as he could. He
attended some of the hearings in Washington when
the matter was discussed. I don't think anybody
is thinking about that now. I know Clair Engle
isn't. He's the head of the Insular Affairs
Committee in the House of Representatives,
Baura: Did Clair Engle favor state take-over?
Downey: I'm sure he didn't. I've worked with Clair for
many years. I'm very fond of Clair. He's an
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able man and of course, continuing to be chairman
of the Insular Affairs Committee, he's a power.
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SACRAMENTO RIVER WATER RIGHTS
Baum: I had a few questions on Sacramento River water
rights.
Downey: There was a subcommittee of the Irrigation Com
mittee of Congress, that's Glair Engle. He's
now chairman of the Insular Affairs, that's the
Irrigation committee of the Rouse of Representa
tives. He's a very able man. He had a hearing out
here of this committee. The principal purpose
of that was to investigate the action that had
been brought by the United States on the Santa
Margarita River in Southern California. They
brought a suit there to determine their water rights,
At that time the Reclamation Bureau was Just a bout
to commence a suit to determine the water rights
on the Sacramento and American rivers, which would
have been a colossal undertaking. When they
brought that suit on the Santa Margarita River in
the South it stirred up all kinds of feeling. Those
cases are v ery technical and very difficult.
So this committee of Congress came out to
investigate that and then they held a hearing here
to see what they were going to do on the Sacramento
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River. That's the Reclamation Bureau, and everybody
realized that sorre of that stored water from Central
Valley has to^e used because there isn't enough of
the natural flow. To determine what would have to
be provided by the Reclamation Bureau and to what
land required a determination of all the rights on
the river. Of course the Santa Margarita River in
the South is just peanuts compared to the Sacramento
River.
This is the report of Engle's committee. I'm
giving you their own language here. They say that
if the Reclamation Bureau brings a suit it will be a
"monstrous lawsuit1* and shouldn't be done. You might
be interested in this report. I've marked several
spots. During the course of my testimony I said that,
"25/6 of the large diverters on the Sacramento River
control 90$ of the water above Sacramento and they
are reclamation districts or big agencies represent
ing thousands of other owners or diverters. We
think an effort should be made to see if we can't work
out something above Sacramento; that is to say, we
want to see if we can't work this out by agreement.
I would like to sit down, Mr. McDonough, my collegue,
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and I and Mr. Hyatt, the ex-State Engineer, and
work that out by agrees nt."
Well, it hasn't been worked out yet and that was
several years ago. But we have done a lot of construc
tive work on it. We've worked in cooperation with
the state, that was Bob Edmondston and now is Harvey
Banks, who is the Director of Water, and with the
Reclamation Bureau, and our organization, the Sacrs-
Tiento River Water Association.
What we've done among other things, we first had
trial runs of the water from the Sacramento River to
determine how much of that water each of these land
owners up and down the valley required. That was
quite an undertaking. Then we employed engineers and
they recently rendered a report on how much water we
have a legal right to, how much stored water we need
to firm up our supply by storage and how much we think
we can get, what we think we'll have to pay for it,
how much water is needed for salinity control, and
finally, what are we going to do about it. We have
to negotiate with the Reclamation Bureau about that.
Whether we're going to get anywhere on that I don't
know. But I think so.
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But you can see how difficult that is. Here's
the report by our engineers. It's lust like a problem
in higher mathematics. I can't even read it and under
stand it without sitting down and really concentrating
hard.
Baum: This report is by the Sacramento River and Delta
Water Association.
Downey: Yes, that's the name of the association.
Baum: Weren't there two associations, the Sacramento River
Water Association and the Delta Association?
Downey: There's this association which is concerned with the
water rights on the river and there's another associa
tion which I also represent that is concerned with
the flood control, that's another name. And there's
still a third association...
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Baum: Is that the California Central Valleys Flood Control
Association?
Downey: Yes, that's the one I've been working with Knowland
on.
There are a lot of other groups that have joined
us. This is the controlling group on the water end
of it. We had q-iite a number of landowners, largely
from up the river, who were working with us but finally
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decided they'd withdraw because they felt they could
work it out better themselves. They're out of it now,
but they're trying to work out their own problems.
About all I could say about this is that there's
a lot of work yet to be done to determine how much
water we need to firm up our supply on the Sacramento
River and the price. Eventually I would hope we'll
get an agreement with the Reclamation Bureau but
that's still in the distant future. All I can say
about this job at the present time is that we have
done a tremendous amount of constructive work. We
have data now which couldn't have been obtained in
a lawsuit without months and months of proceedings
in court.
We entered into an agreement right after we had
this meeting with Engle. Parties to the "memorandum
agreement" were Governor Warren, Ed Hyatt, who was
working with us at that time, he was then retired
as State Engineer, the Bureau of Reclamation, the
Attorney-General, possibly some others, in which we
set forth what we hoped to do. We're having a little
trouble now as to whether the new Reclamation Bureau
under Eisenhower is willing to conform to everything
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
that the old Reclamation Bureau set forth in that
memorandum.
Martin McDonough is working with me on that,
doing his usual good work.
T>o you expect this Upper Sacramento Valley Water
Association that withdrew to enter the contest in
competition with the lower Sacramento?
Well, they don't always agree with the lower users
of water on what we call the Delta. They think they
are entitled to most of the water in the river and
the Delta people think they are entitled to much
of the river because they are riparian landowners
and big users. The upper-river people are at
present pretty much dominated by a man who is very
partisan about these matters. He worked with us,
but he has his own ideas about things and he prefers
to work by himself. And he knows how to do things
very well.
Who's that?
Charlie Lambert. He's a man who's been quite in
fluential up in the upper valley. He's not too well,
I think he's having some sickness. His son is working
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Baum:
Downey:
there. He's an engineer.
Mrs. Baum, I don't know. I was the man who
said to the committee, nl think we can work this out.
We'd like to." They took n?e at my word, as you'll
see when you read this report. But I may be long
buried before this thing is settled, if it ever is
settled.
It involves the problems of salinity control too,
You see, a certain amount of water, I think roughly
about i4.,000 second-feet, has to go down for salinity
control and we always had assumed, and I think that's
in our "memorandum agreement," that the United States
will pay for salinity control. We have to figure
this out, both on the theory that we may have to pay
for that salinity control or we may not.
Isn't much of the land that's being watered rice
land? Rice takes a lot of water.
A great deal of it is rice land up above. However,
there is a lot of use of water upon rice land, but
on the other hand there's a lot of return flow too.
You take up on 108, their use of water is colossal,
they're one of the rice-growing districts. But
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much of that water gets back to the river. Their
return flow is tremendous . But in the end we have
to base all this on reasonable beneficial use. Some
of those uses are undoubtedly beyond all reason, on
the rice lands.
Baum: That's what I was going to ask you. Did you think
that you would be able to get enough water to continue
these lands in their present uses or might there
have to be a readjustment of use?
Downey: No, we were figuring generally on their present uses.
So far as all of our members are concerned, we've
determined what they need.
Baum: But do you think they can get it?
Downey: That's the question. Of course they can get it, at
a price, from Shasta. Of course, much of that water
at Shasta has been committed already.
Baum: So you're really in competition for the water, aside
from the price, aren't you?
Downey: Yes, in competition, although we contend that we
have certain rights there. You and I have never
talked about the counties-of-origin water and the
areas-of-deficlencies and so forth, but we have also
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Baum:
Downey!
made a very strong showing that when the Sacramento
Valley voted for the Central Valley Project it was
represented to them, and we have it from no less
an authority than Secretary Krug, who was then the
Secretary of Interior, that they were not going
to take one bit of water away from us until all our
rights had been satisfied, only the surplus. How
much that's worth legally, I don't know.
I've heard it prophesied that eventually all water
will have to be allocated throughout the whole
state on the basis of beneficial use and that that
will mean a readjustment of agricultural production.
That could be true. There was a suit brought a
great many years ago by the City of Antioch (1920)
to prevent so much of the water being taken out
high up for rice. It was contended in that case
that they had to even stop rice growing. The Supreme
Court never passed on that except to say that it
might be a matter to be considered sometime by the
Legislature. But rice growing now is certainly one
of our most important industries, no question about
that, but it does pose problems. Water is the atomic
bomb.
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COMMENTS ON THE LEGAL PROFESSION
State Bar Examination
Baum: Would you like to get into the legal profession
questions now?
Downey: You can start on them. I would be as much interested
in my answers as you are.
Baum: We can start with your bar examination when you came
to California.
Downey: I didn't have to pass it, fortunately. I graduated
from the University of Michigan and that admitted me
to the Michip-an bar and the admission to the Michigan
bar admitted me here. They don't do that anymore.
They have one examination for attorneys from other
states and one for the person being admitted for the
first time. Many people who have practiced law in
other states don't do the necessary studying for the
bar exam and they fail and that hurts them. But, I
think it's a good rule that they should be required
to pass the examination of the state.
Baum: Do you think the bar exam should be very difficult?
Downey: Well, they are difficult. I don't know that they're
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too difficult. I wouldn't want to try to pass one
right now. There was a good deal of discussion many
years ago as to whether we should require any bar
examination. Chief Justice Beatty who was on the State
Supreme Court, some years ago, took the position it
is said, that anyone who wanted to practice law
should have the right to without any examination, with
out anything.
Baum: Without even a diploma?
Downey: No, he thought not. Thst's all changed now and I
think in the main it's been for the better. There
have been occasionally men I think who should have
been admitted but weren't because they couldn't pass
the examination. But if they want to pass they can
take the examination again. All of the people I've
been particularly interested in have always passed
the examination.
No, I think it's been a good thing. There were
a number of attorneys a good many years ago who
didn't know anything afrout law. When you go in to
a lawyer you want sonebody to have at least some
knowledge of the fundamentals.
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Baum: Do you think there's an advantage to cutting down
the competition, or the number of attorneys?
Downey: I don't like that. Competition of course is pretty
heavy. But I'm not worried about it. Right here
in Sacramento the number of lawyers is increasing
all the time. And they are very good lawyers. They
show the training they've had. Many of them are
very strong comoetitors. They don't bother you
particularly, nevertheless, they are able men. They
are young, you see. Thev have ability and energy.
Baum: Then you don't think the difficult bar exam has cut
down competition?
Downey: Not for the older people, no, I don't.
Baum: There's still plenty of competition.
Downey: I don't know whether from an overall point of view
more men ought to go into science and engineering
like they are doing in Russia. Certainly all the
young men I know here are very fine, outstanding men.
There are a great many in the state departments,
attorney-general's office. There are so many of them
here I don't know all of them. I'm rather ashamed of
myself. It used to be I'd know every lawyer here and
know them by their first name.
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
The State Bar
Do you do much with the local bar association here?
No, very little.
Have you ever been active in bar association work?
Well, going back a number of years, there was a
very informal organization here. It's becoming a
big organization now. I have served on some of
those committees, but I don't even know what they
were. The State Bar, of course, is becoming stronger
all the time.
Did you work, during the 1920' s, when the State Bar
was trying to get established.
No, I didn't work on that. I think I was a little
indifferent to it at that time. I have to admit,
now the State Bar has done a lot of good.
You are on a State Bar committee now?
Yes, the Committee on Procedural Reform. We are
charged w^th getting certain constitutional amendments
through the legislature. It's been approved by the
State Bar, our report, and undoubtedly will appear
in the legislature.
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Downey!
I was the chairman of a committee of the State
Bar a short time ago and the committee was to dis
cuss recent epochal decisions of the Supreme Court
at our meeting at Yosemite. That was after Roosevelt
had come in and the personnel of the Court had
changed and there were many epochal decisions. Be
ing the chairman, I selected as members of my
committee the heads of the law department at Cali
fornia, and Stanford and Hastings and one somewhere
else. All were outstanding men. Then I asked them
to prepare papers on these decisions. We had quite
a meeting of it. I, being the presiding officer,
started it off with some article that had lust been
written by Roosevelt himself on what the Supreme
Court had been doing and then they came in with all
their comments. Sometimes it's an advantage to be
chairman of a committee, you Just choose whom you
want. It's an easy ride.
Have you been particularly interested in any of the
problems of the State Bar?
Very little. Many lawyers put in a great deal of
time on that. They make a campaign to be elected
to the Board of Governors and they look forward to
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225
being president of the State Bar. I wasn't particu
larly interested in that sort of work.
Baum: One of the things the bar was working on before there
was a State Bar was a bill to prevent the practice
of law by non-lawyers. That was in 1921. Were you
active in that work?
Downey: No. In fact, I wasn't interested in that sort of
thing. I thought you'd get the work all right if
you did good work. But there was a lot of feeling
about that. I thought the feeling was somewhat
exaggerated.
Baum: You didn't feel it was a very serious problem?
Downey: No, I didn't. Although they have accomplished
something, undoubtedly. Your banks and trust
companies, they are very c are ful what they do, title
companies too. I liked the help I got from those
people before they got to the point they couldn't
give it. Undoubtedly the bar did some good, although
I wasn't interested.
Loyalty Oath for Attorneys
Baum: I want to ask you what you think of the requirement
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of young attorneys to answer whether they have ever
been a member of the Communist Party or not?
Downey: Of course, I don't like McCarthy, I don't like his
witch hunting. Sheridan would argue with me that
the country was being overrun with people who have
been Communists and are Communists. Of course, they're
dangerous, but I've always felt that if a man had
been a member of a Communist cell and wasn't any
longer a member, we shouldn't inquire into his past
as a rule any more than they inquire into my past,
except you. I don't like it. I supoose they have
a right to ask that question of an attorney. If he's
going to be an attorney he's going to be required lots
of times to act in matters he may have already been
a Communist with respect to. I attended a recent
installation of a Superior Court judge and they read
that new state oath that they have to take.
Baum: Isn't the regular oath that you agree to do the duties
of your office and to uphold the Constitution?
Downey: Well, that's what it ought to be, to pledge allegiance
to the Constitution of the United States and to the
State of California, but this went much further. We
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Baum:
Downey:
have to have those oaths taken by all of the members
of the boards of directors of the various agencies
and it startles you... I think I'm talking about
English more than anvthing else, it seems so un
necessary to repeat the thing over and over again
like I am doing here.
It took the man swearing in the judge that day, it
seems to me, a couple of minutes or more just to
read thst oath. I don't think there's anything
wrong about it.
Ethical Problems
What do you consider reprehensible ethical practices?
That's a big question. Some of them are very, very
reprehensible. We had a case here not so long ago
where some lawyer made a friend of an old man and
then got the man to will all of his property to him.
He did it very, very cleverly. The will was set
aside and the lawyer was disbarred and was sent to
the penitentiary. Those are just acts of a criminal,
you know. There are such cases as that, but I think
they are rather exceptional.
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There ere some lawyers who violate confidential
relations of a lawyer. They will take cases where
there are conflicts. I don't think there are many
of them.
Certainly some lawyers overcharge which is unethical.
Some of them will take trust money that comes and
deposit it in their own account, which is unethical.
All those things, of course, are frowned on by the
bar. There's always a shading in all these things.
I had an old woman come to me the other day, she's
about 90 years old. She wanted me to make a will.
I said, "How do you want your property to go." She
said, "I want to leave it to you." I said, "Why,
I couldn't do anything like that." She was offended
about it. "Why, you're my friend. I look up to you."
I couldn't and wouldn't do it, of course, but it
just shows how sometimes these things are put up to
you. I can see how people would have thought they
ought to do it, it wouldn't be right to turn her down.
I think sometimes where they do that they aren't do
ing it maliciously or willfully, there is generally
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some reason why they do it.
I would think perhaps, if you're making a
blanket indictment, I know some charges are too
high. Probably some of mine ere too. Generally
when I charge, it's a man of wealth well able to
bear it. It's the little man who doesn't have the
means, to do these things you feel is taken ad
vantage of.
Baum: How serious a breach do you think solicitation of
business is?
Downey: I don't like it. Yet araln, that's one of those
things where you have a hard time drawing the line
between what's right and what's wrong. There are
many, many people who go on boards of directors
expecting to get the legal business that comes, not
directly solicited, but they think it will come to
them if they're on the board. There's quite a lot
of solicitation. The man who solicits the business,
he won't be caught. You take solicitation of the
job of receiver for some big corporation, nobody is
going to know about that. He won't out and out apply
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for the business, nevertheless, by indirect process
he succeeds in getting that.
Solicitation of business is commonly thought of
as the solicitation for autOTobile cases or cases
of that kind. That is very common now, very, very
common. There are a number of lawyers I know who
have their own runners -up.
Baum: Do you think that's serious?
Downey: Well, it's certainly not what is contemplated. I
will say this though, most of those men are very
skilful personal injury lawyers. I know one who
has his own car and his own man and if a report
comes through of an accident his man is out there
signing up the witnesses and signing up the people
who have been injured. He's probably more vigorous
about that than most people.
I had a woman, her husband had been killed on
one of the railroads, what you would call a good case,
she asked me to go out to the hospital. I did. She
said, "We want you to take this case." I told her I
would. A little later on another lawyer came out to
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
the hospital. He began telling her what a wonderful
lawyer he was. And he was too, he had very outstand
ing men who do that sort of thing, witnesses and so
on. He wanted her to sign this contract. She said,
"Steve Downey is representing me." That shocked him
because I was quite a friend of his. He immediately
called me on the phone and said, "I'm awfully sorry
about this. I didn't know you we^e in the case."
But there's a lot of thet now and I suppose
from a wholesale point of view that is probably the
cardinal injury that is done. Sometimes those people
overcharge. They are very commercial about it. They
want their half. They will provide the witnesses.
Certainly something should be done about that.
Well, that is cause for disbarment, isn't it?
Yes, if they can prove it. They've had two or three
cases. That can be very bad, where you've got the
number of personal injuries that come from the
automobile now.
I think some attorneys don't feel that's so bad,
because the insurance comcanies are there on the
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Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
scene trvlng to get the prrson to settle right away.
There's some truth in that too. Certainly most of
these men I know of who do that thing are able men
and I think they are very good trial lawyers. They
do get pretty avaricious sometimes, but I think as a
rule they know their case. I think sometimes they
overcharge. You hate to see a lawyer trying to tear
his client to oieces to get more money out of him.
I would say that's the most unethical thing on a big
scale, that affects a lot of men.
What would you regard as unfair trial tactics?
In any jury case, there can be a lot of unfair things
done in the courtroom, if the judge will let you get
by with them. I think all of us try to do that to a
certain extent.
I wouldn't call it unfair, although sometimes it could
be. You might attempt to get before the jury some
thing that you heve no right to get before them, more
often the subtle suggestions you may make. Generally
you can't get by the judge on those things. He'll
cut you off.
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Baum:
Downey;
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
There are e lot of other things that are done
in court that are unfair, undoubtedly, and reprehen
sible too, I haven't encountered much of that.
I suppose it's before Juries that most of this goes on,
Largely.
What judicial ethics do you think are most important?
Well, to decide a case in ^y favor, (laughter)
I'te never known. ..I can't say thst, I have known of
judges who have been charged with not only violation
of Judicial ethics, but actually. . .one judge on the
Supreme Court was forced out of office under Johnson,
he was a crook, he took money. Of course, there's
no argument about that, that's going too far.
I think one of your questions was should the
bar have the right to investigate the judiciary.
To discipline the judges.
No, I don't think they should. My contact with the
judiciary here, they're all been very outstanding
men. We have a fine bench here, and a fine bench
in Northern California. San Francisco, I've heard
things about them, some of the judges there, that
don't sound complimentary, but in so fer as I've come
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In contact with them, they've been all right. Certain
ly the higher courts have been very fine, as far as
I know.
Baum: Then you feel thst there would be no need to discipline
them?
Downey: No, I don't think so. You've either got to s ee that
they're disciplined by not being reelected if they
come up for reelection, or you've got to recall them.
But I think that's got tone left in the hands of the
electorate or the appointing power.
Appointment of Judges
Baum: Do you think Judges should be elected or appointed?
Downey: I would say the superior judges ought tobe elected.
The method in the appellate courts is a good method
now. When their term is up it goes on the ballot,
"Shall so-and-so be retained?" I think it's all
right. I was discussing this with Chief Justice
Gibson the other day and I think he would incline
toward the appointment of all judges. And he ' s a
good man too, a very good man.
Baum: Do you think the bar ought to have any part in con-
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firming the nomination of a candidate for the bench?
Downey: No, I do not think so. There is this committee that
passes on judicial qualifications, I see no objection
to that.
Baum: I think the criticism is that the nomination actually
has almost been made and it is very hard for the
committee to say "No" at that point.
Downey: That happened on the appointment of Max Ra^in to the
Supreme Court by Olson. I recommended him to Olson,
by the way. A very fine man. A little bit woosey,
like some of the rest of us are probably, but a good
man, an honest man. And the qualifications committee
finally turned him down and that killed that aopoint-
ment.
Baum: As I understpnd it, Attorney General Earl Warren was
the one who turned him down.
Downey: I wouldn't be surprised. I never talked to Earl about
that. I don't disagree with him in many respects.
Baum: I was going to ask you if you agreed with Warren on
that point.
Downey: Well, I wouldn't have turned down Radin, but of course
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236
I knew Radin. I liked him very much. As I say, he
was a little bit wobbley in some of his philosophy,
but no more than I am. No, I never even mentioned
it to Warren, but I did recommend Radin to Olson,
Baum: What did you think of Olson's other appointments?
Downey: All of the appointments that I knew anything about
I thought were good. Phil Gibson, now cur Chief Jus'
tice. Right here in this conntry. . .some of the men
I recommended. Ray Coughlin on the Superior Bench
makes an excellent judge. I recommended a number
of them here locally. Paul Peek on the appellette
court, an excellent man.
Baum: He was one of the ones there was some controversy
about.
Downey: Yes, he hadn't done a lot of practicing, but he
makes an excellent judge.
Baum: You recommended Paul Peek?
Downey: I recommended him. And I recommended Annette Adams,
who was a very good justice. There was a lot of
prejudice against her because she was a woman. A
very fine woman.
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There were a number of appointments he made which
I thought were very good appointments. Culbert,
he had faults, but I think his appointments, as far
as I knew, were good. He may have made some that
weren't good.
Bauro: Did you approve of Warren's appointments?
Downey: Always. Of course, I was prejudiced in favor of
Warren.
Baum: You probably helped recommend appointees.
Downeyt I have spoken to him a number of times. I'm sure
anybody I recommended was good.
Baum: What kind of qualifications do you look for when
you re commend a man as an apoointee to the bench?
Downey: Well, depending on the appointment. If you're
recommending a man to the Supreme Court, you want a
man who can write an opinion and a man who has a
rather clear conception of the law. If it's a man
for some administrative office, it's a horse of a
differest color. It depends on what it is. I think
undoubtedly in some of these appointments you have
personal feelings in connection with them. If you
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Baum:
Downey;
know a man and like him, you are more inclined to
recommend him. It would be awfully hard for me, if
a man came to me and asked me to recommend him and
I knew him and liked him, for me to say "No." That
came up again and again with Sheridan's appointees.
Trials
Here was a question I thought you might want to
think about. Can you state any general principles
for the successful prosecution of a water right case?
I've been thinking over some of the questions you
sent. Generally speaking, the trial of any case,
whether it's a water case or any case, I think involves
much the same problems. Take a Jury case, for ex
ample. A jury case, if properly tried, is like a
work of art. You've got twelve men there and you've
got to be pulling with them all the time. You have
to make friends with them. You have to convince them
of ycur sincerity. Now, the trial of a court case is
different. There's the judge and he's primarily
interested in legal problems. The jury is interested
in factual problems. Both, however, can be swayed
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Baum:
Downey:
by emotion. The coldest judges canbe influenced
by prejudice, whatever it may be.
Now, in a water right case, if it's a case in
volving a trial before a jury — most of them are not —
but take the riparian right cases we used to have
We don't have so many of them now where some man
is attempting to recover the value of his riparian
land which he claims was taken from him. That is
very much like any jury case. I think I told you
about one of those cases I tried at Merced and I
handled the jury and a juror said, "By God, no,
it ain't right." That was jiist exactly a jury
reaction. Or it might have been the other way.
I would think those cases were very much like
any other, even a criminal case, where some man is
charged with a crime and where emotion and prejudice
and all those things enter into it.
How do you go about preparing for a case like that?
There's always a certain amount of close preparation
required in a water case. Take a riparian right case,
to determine whether the land is riparian, to deter-
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mine what the damage Is, if any, that had been done
by the taking of it. It does require rather careful
preparation on the engineering. I would think that
for some of these water cases, they are really like
working out a mathematical formula. Right now
Martin Is doing this on the hearings on the American
River before the new State Water Rights Board, try
ing to determine what people are entitled to permits
on the American River. That's ,1ust plain, hard,
engineering and mathematical work. It's almost
impossible for me to sit through those hearings,
they are so prosey. Martin loves that, and he does
a wonderful job too.
I think if I were going to continue with all
the water work that might come before me I'd take
up engineering to get the background. Some of these
things come naturally to some peoole. I try to keep
away from as much of that as I can.
Baum: There must be a lot of difference between trying a
case before a jury and trying a case before a water-
rights board or something like that.
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Downey: Oh ves. A man who can try a jury trial, that's the
height of artistry, I believe. There are twelve men,
they come into the courtroom and you've got to get
them on your side before you get through, but do it
by having them believe in your sincerity. That's
very different from a court case.
Baum: In a .jury trial like that, how much denends on your
artistry, as you say, and how much on preparation
of your case?
Downey: Other people may differ on this. I think it's the
atmosphere you create. If you create an atmosphere
in the courtroom that the jury thinks you are entitled
to some relief. That seme thing is true of a personal
injury case. You get in an automobile collision with
some other car, everybody's seen it and willing to
testify and is excited about it, the jury instinc
tively may side with one or the other. You've got
to get them to see your case.
Well, in a water case like the Collier case
down in Merced, that's a little different again.
Here's a great public entprprise and they've taken
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the water. The landowner claims they've taken his
water and ruined his ranch. You can see the conflict
ing play of human emotion on a thing like that. In
this particular case they thought "No," they can't
try to make the district pay a million dollars.
Baura: I should think most of the people would have been on
your side to begin with in that case.
Downey: Well, I think they were. I was asking the court to
adopt a rule of law that would be practically the
same as the constitutional amendment which was sub
sequently adopted. I couldn't find any authority
for it. I had a very able opponent and he kept
challenging me, "You say this is the law, show me
any authority." The judge kept asking me. He wanted
to hold with me on that, whether he would admit this
evidence or not. That went along for several days
with very emphatic arguments on both sides. Finally
the judge said to me, "Mr. Downey, haven't you got a
law to support what you're claiming here?" I quoted
Rufus Choate, a great lawyer, who said "I don't
know if there is a law or not, I've tried unsuccessfully
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to find one, but if there isn't one, Your Honor
might well be proud to be the first to declare so
just a rule of law." And that got him, it really
got him. He ruled with me on that point and that
won the case, at least so far as getting the facts
before the lury that I wanted. So there are all
kinds of things, you know, that enter into it.
Baum: Can you state anv principles for negotiation outside
of court?
Downey: Of course, I have my own views of that. If I can
win a case, that's one thing, and then I have to
try to convince the other attorney that he's going
to lose the case and then try to make some deal with
him. Maybe I'll make some concession in order to
get him to agree. But very often attorneys don't
know their cases and that always bothers you, where
you know that you can establish your case, that you've
got a case, but the other side doesn't examine into
the case enough to know what their rights, or at
least your rights, are, you don't get anywhere.
Baum: You mean thet you have to be pretty sure that you can
win?
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"Downey: Thrt's right. Now, if I think that notwithstanding
everything else, I may lose, then I take an entirely
different point of view. Well, I'd better make a
settlement here now and if I don't settle this case
I'll lose and there'll be some .judgment against me
or my client. So then I work from that end and I
start hoping I'll work out a settlement and being
willing to make concessions to bring about a settle
ment.
Of course, this pre-trial orocedure, it is
hoped will bring about more settlements and there
by relieve some of the congestion of the courts.
There's a good deal of sense behind that. If both
sides know their cases ysu can generally make the
attorney who doesn't have the stronger side realize
that he'll have to make some concession ,1ust to avoid
litigation. Litigation costs money. This pre-trial
work is recommended now, and we're going to follow
it to the greatest extent we can. That has a tendency
in being very, very helpful in working out negotia
tions. The pre-trial is just now really being tried
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on any outstanding scale. Of course, they've had
it in the federal court for years.
Baum: Then you start the pre-trial work and in establish
ing your case in the pre-trial you have the basis
for outside negotiations.
Downey: Very frequently, if the pre-trial is properly pre
sented. As I believe pre-trial should be conducted
a man knows all about his case before he goes to
court, the purpose is to find out how many of these
things he contends for are admitted on the other
side and how many are denied. How many can be ad
mitted under legal sanction and how many can't.
I've got a case now, a very important case,
coming up shortly. If I can get the other counsel,
there are eight or nine on the other side, to really
work on that case and analyze what the proof is and
willing to admit what I can clearly prove in the way
of the record, we should work out a settlement in
that case. Some of those attorneys on the other side
don't want to do that. They'd rather wait until
they get to trial.
Baum: It sounds like in some of these cases the attorneys
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haven't worked through the case before they start
in the courts.
Downey: Well, attorneys frequently don't do that. They don't
really know what their case is until they get called
into the courtroom. They may or they may not. Even
then a good many of them will blunder through the
case. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing I
was ever able to do and to really accomplish results
was to really know my case, all the facts, both sides,
the other side and your side too. If all attorneys
would do that it certainly would be very, very help
ful in the way of getting rid of many of these cases.
Baum: Would thst be called unethical conduct, to not have
prepared your case?
Downey: No, I wouldn't call it unethical conduct. Some of
it is due to laziness, some to not being willing to
face an issue, some of it lack of time. No, I don't
think that's unethical. A great many attorneys do
not prepare their case as they should. Probably I
don't either, but I think I do. I think I know my
facts before I go to court. That means knowing the
fects against you as well as the facts for you.
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21+7
Stephen W. Downey's Most Significant Cases
Baum: Here is another difficult question. Which do you
consider your most significant cases?
Downey: I've thought a good deal a^out that. There are a
great many cases I have handled which certainly were
important cases... a great manv cases I handled in
the higher courts which involved important legal
propositions.
I want to give that a little more thought. I'll
drop you a note aboii.t that. I would say for one,
I'd pick out the SMUD revaluation case. That was
important and it's never been duplicated. It in
volved very important factual questions, it involved
very important questions of valuation, and it involved
very many legal propositions. When I say that case,
I refer not only to the proceedings before the Public
Utility Commission, but also the proceedings in court.
There are several Reclamation Board cases thst
were essential to the flood-control relief from over
assessment, and thev involved important legal ques
tions before the Supreme Court.
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Several of those Kerced cases. Take the case
where we sued the San Joaquin Light and Power Company
for the payment of the power down there.
There was one insurance cese, representing the
California Western States Life Insurance Company
where we sued, practically the winning of that case
for about a million dollars rehabilitated that com
pany. It was in bad shape at that time.
Let me think that over,
(Mr. Downey later sent a letter outlining the three
cases he felt were most significant. His letter
is included in the appendix.)
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Office Organization of Downey, Brand,
Seymour, and Rohwer.
Baum: You told how you brought other partners into the
firm after John Pullen and your brother left.
Did each partner specialize in a certain kind of
work?
Downey: No, I wouldn't say that, but all have high capacity
for doing certain things. Mr. Brand, Clyde, we're
not particularly interested in the same things, in
the law. Clyde likes the business end of law. He's
director in several corporations. I'm not director
in any corporation. He's one of the directors of
the Crocker-Anglo Bank and a director of Natomas
and director of some other rather larre corporations
including California Western States Life Insurance.
That sort of work doesn't appeal to me. He likes
business problems. I would say that he likes
business better than he likes law and he's good at it.
He understands the legal end of things that grow out
of business and he lust naturally follows that line
of work and does it well. It's not interesting to
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to me, I kind of like this work that involves some
quasi-public organization, some district. I like
that and do that.
My son has come into the firm in the last few
years and he kind of likes the same work I like, so
I shove rry work off on him as much as I can. Mr.
Seymour likes the corporate work and estate work.
He is a very able lawyer.
We don't intentionally specialize in anything,
but we like different kinds of work and just naturally
gravitate to them. Our other partner, Mr. Rohwer,
is a natural business-getter. He likes to get business
and he does.
I suppose I'm as near to a general specialization
as anybody here and I'm trying now to get away from
that to sosse degree. You specialize on water and it
can drive you crazy because there's so much of it.
That wasn't true a few years ago, but it's certainly
true now.
Baum: When some work comes in, does it come in to your firm
or does it come in to an individual attorney in the
firm?
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Downey: Of course, if it's a weter matter or a matter involv
ing so^e of these districts, it generally comes to
me. I may have to get some of the assistants in the
office to take of that, to help me. If it's a matter
not involving water, it might be say probate, Mr.
Brand loves that, and he has quite a number of peo
ple who come to him on those matters. That come to
him often. Occasionally he'll call on me or I'll
call on him or on Mr. Seymour or Mr. Rohwer. or on
my son. Some of these big firms, .just how they work
these things. I've often wondered. Sometimes I
get work I don't want to handle and I hate to call
anybody else in to do it unless they are one of the
assistants. They do have managers in some of these
offices, but I don't know how it works.
Baum: Do most firms handle a variety of work or do some
firms specialize?
Downey: Oh, I think so. You take the big firms in San
Francisco, they have an all-around practice. Some
times they'll come to me on some matters and some
times I'll go to them. But they have a rather general
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Baum:
Downe y :
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
practice. There are a number of men who specialize
in tax work in all the big firms.
We have a ^an on that, a certified public
accountant and a lawyer. Thet requires a very high
degree of specialization. He's one of our assistants,
Very good man. But we first employed him because we
wanted a man in the office here who could handle tax
problems. He was both a certified public accountant
and he had passed his bar examination. He comes in
the office Just as one of the lawyers. Undoubtedly
he will be a member of the firm. That's generally
true, I hope, of a number of the other lawyers work
ing here in the office.
Do you employ engineers in y^ur work?
Oh, very often.
Do you employ them, or the district...
Frequently I do myself. I've often said that if I
were ten years younger I might get an office and em
ploy four or five engineers to handle water-work.
There's no limit to thet water-work.
How do you select the young attorneys thatyou bring
into your office?
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Downey: Well, we generally take it up with the University
of California or Stanford and get them to recommend
men. We have two here in the office now who were
highly recommended by the University of California.
I think they were both on the California Law Review.
That's always a good sign, you know. We have awfully
good men here.
Baum: I know your son is from Stanford. Do you try to get
men from Stanford especially?
Downey: Jack is a graduate from Stanford and he likes to
see what the people at Stanford say about a man. We
don't have any Stanford men here now.
Baum: Then you take a good man from where ever he comes.
Downey: That's right.
Baum: Do you ever get them from out-of -state?
Downey: No, I don't think we have. Prom time to time they've
sent me some man from the University of Michigan
to talk to me, but I don't think we've ever gotten a
man. It's a big advantage to have gone to school
right here in this state. He learns so much about
the fundamental law that you need in California. I
kind of regret I didn't go to school here, but I didn't
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know I was coming to California when I went to school.
Baum: What happens to these attorneys you employ? Do most
of them stay with the firm or do they go into their
own firms or government work?
Downey: It depends. Some of them like to get out for themselves
I rather think we're closely knit right now. I think
the men in the office, they like us and we like them
and they do very good work. Of course, like any or
ganization, some people don't get along with other
people.
Baum: Do most of your men stay with you?
Downey: Well, there heve been some who have gone. Clyde
acts rather as the manager, somebody has to do that.
He doesn't assign the work in that sense, but he
knows what's going on in the office and takes care
of the bills, all those things.
Baum: What do you call these attorneys who work for you?
Downey: I call them my assistants. I frequently have to call
one of them in and I always introduce him as my
assistant.
Baum: I think they used to call them clerks.
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255
Downey: Yes, clerks. I don't use that myself, but it is
used, I know. In San Francisco they have the sen
ior partners and the junior partners. Sometimes
they introduce a man there as "one of my .lunior
partners."
Baum: I was wondering whether you had run into cases of
conflicting interests among your clients?
Downey: Well, you run into that all the time, Mrs. Baum.
Many people have some claims to make against districts
and they don't know that I'm disqualified. I tell
them, "I can't take that. I represent the district,
or the trustees or the directors." That's very, very
conmon and sometimes embarrassing because people
don't like you to say you can't take their case.
Baum: What do you do? DO you recommend some other firm?
Downey: Sometimes. Sometimes you say, "So-and-so is a good
man, but you've got to make vour own choice." It
may be somebody I'm very friendly with, you see. I
don't know anything that's rr-ore common than that.
Baum: Do you try to be on the same side usually in certain
types of cases, like in an accident case do you try
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tots on the olaintil'f side or the deferment side
all the time?
Downey: That again is a matter of just how you feel about it
although insurance company attorneys generally act
for defendants. I always take the plaintiff side.
I'm sure that was due to the fact that when I first
started to practice I always thought somebody was
being wronged. Sheridan and I at that time had most
of the plaintiffs' cases that arose. There weren't
many automobile cases at that time. We had most of
the cases where maybe the streetcar company or the
P.G. & E. had killed or hurt somebody and we'd love
to sue the P.G. & E. Generally speaking we were su*-~
ing — the plaintiff was suing — these big corporations
or these rather rich people. I know now my philosophy
was all wrong, but that's the way I thought then.
Jack Pullen and I, we had a case where we sued practi
cally all the important men in town. We were terribly
enraged about that case. Some woman stubbed her toe
on the sidewalk and got hurt so we sued all the council
and everybody who had given bond, and they were
rather wealthy men and their bond m«n. We had so
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257
Baum:
Downeyt
many defendants we practically couldn't handle it,
there were too many things to be done. The funny
thing about that case, during the interim before we
came to trial, it never did come to trial, we sued
the husband of the woman who got injured and this
man fell in love with his nurse and his wife sued
for alienation of affections and we never did get to
the trial of the case. But that's the way those
things went when we were young.
What I'm trying to say is that in my training,
I sued the big and important boys and I've never
gotten away from that entirely. Now we have all
these automobile cases and maybe the plaintiff is
wrong and maybe the Defendant is wrong, but they
are all together different because they are generally
represented by insurance companies on the defendant
end of it.
Don't you represent the insurance companies, or
your f ? rm?
The insurance companies I speak about here are life
insurance companies. California Western States Life
Insurance Company, we are their consulting counsel.
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Some of those cases are cases where the company is
sued, maybe on a policy of life insurance, and we
have to defend them. My son doesn't mind these cases,
He likes them. He generally takes care of them.
Baum: In water cases, you are generally on the public dis
trict side?
Downey: Generally. When I was a young man we used to say
"Although the rich may not be always wrong, and the
poor not always in the right, but God had made it
right, that men should fight, The battle of the
weak against the strong." That's the way I felt
when I was a young man.
Baum: Who do you think are the outstanding water attorneys
in this region?
Downey: You've heard me speak of Martin WcDonough very often.
He's undoubtedly outstanding. There are other water
attorneys here connected with some of the agencies,
for example the Reclsmation Bureau. They have their
own attorneys. There's John Bennett, Bill Burke,
able men. They specialize in water work, but they
represent the Bureau. There are a number of lawyers
connected with the State Water Department who are
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259
outstanding men.
There's a firm of Landis and Brody who are
doing some of that work. Brody was the attorney
for the Reclamation Bureau here a few years ago
and has gone into private practice. There will be
more, but there are not too many now. Occasionally
a lawyer will get a matter involving water law,
Phil Dryer, but I don't know many here. If you had
a big water case I guess you'd talk to Martin or
I would recommend him.
Baum: What about these people who come to you and you
can't take their case because you're on the other
side?
Downey: That's right, and a good many people come to me and
I won't take anymore water cases if I can help it.
I try to talk them out of it or I suggest somebody.
I've suggested Landis and Brody in many cases. Of
course, Martin, when he was just getting started in
this thing I turned over a lot of matters to him.
But he's got his own business now. You get to the
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number in San Francisco who do that work.
Beum: I know your work sometimes involves trying to pass
legislation.
Downey: Yes, we have to get that. Right now I have on ray
desk two or three bills I have to look into to get
legislation for the Port District or for Sl^TJD or
some district. I don't like that work, but you
have to do it sometimes. You find some laws that
have been enacted aren't deer. You have to clear
them up. I don't like to go up there and buttonhole
legislators and try to get them to vote. During the
time I was with the Reclamation Board we had many,
many of these cases which required action by the
legislature, but those were big cases end we'd have
hearings before maybe the entire Assembly or the
entire Senate, maybe a committee. I don't mind that.
I don't like to work individually with a certain
senator or assemblyman or congressman.
Baum: You handle a lot of public district work that I think
would automatically go into legislation. But do
your partners also have that type of work in their
work?
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Downey: Not as much. Every lawyer once in awhile has some
thing. I don't like to be a lobbyist.
Now, you take some matter the Irrigation Dis
tricts Association is interested in. They have a
very able staff of men who do that kind of work and
I can work with them. Sometimes you Just have to
appear before committees there and testify.
Baum: Do you have the type of client who comes to you with
all his legal problems, much as a person would go to
his family doctor?
Downey: There are quite a number like that.
Baum: Do you handle that type of client yourself or do you
pass their work out in the firm?
Downey: It depends on what it is. I generally talk to them
and sometimes those problems can be more difficult
than they look. Sometimes they involve a personal
angle. I'll do them if I can or maybe I'll ask one
of my assistants to do them.
Baum: Would you recommend that each person have a family
lawyer?
Downey: Well, it's nice if you can clo it, if you've got enough
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work to r equire it. Wr. Brand has a great many of
those kind of people,
Baum: What kind of work do you refuse to handle?
Downey: I don't handle divorces or family troubles. There's
an exception to all these things. Sometimes you
have to, some old friend. They just want to talk
to somebody. You're not trying a divorce case for
them, you're not making a property settlement, but
you have to talk to them. You'd be surprised how
much of that sort of thing you do do in the course
of a practice. And sometimes you have 'to get a
divorce for somebody. Women, for example, are very
dependent on somebody advising them in critical per
iods Tike that, probably more so than a man. I have
to be a father confessor often for somebody.
Baum: You would handle a divorce case in some rare instances?
Downey: A very rare instance.
Baum: Do you handle crdminal cases?
Downey: No more criminal cases. They are not as desirable
as they used to be. But there's always the excep
tion, you know. Somebody comes in and they have some
particular problem and they may be able to put it up
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to you in such a way that you feel like going ahead
with it.
Charity Work
Baum: Do you take charity cases?
Downey: Oh, we do a lot of that work. I don't call them
charity cases. Somebody really needs somebody to do
something for them, I've got quite a lot of that.
My son recently organized the Legal Aid Society here
and they do a lot of work of that kind. They have
quite a staff of volunteer lawyers and they have a
man who's there on a paid basis. They are supposed
to only do work where it's required on account of the
client being indigent, but that's becoming a big
field now, or at least a lot of work. They also,
I think, have a panel here that takes care of people
at rather lower fees, they do the work without charg
ing what they normally would charge. The Bar
Association has a schedule of fees and sometimes I
wouldn't even think of charging as much as that,
but I'd rather not charge anything at all.
Baum: Your vary your fee according to the person's ability
to pay?
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Downey: I don't have any standard fees I go by.
Baum: In this Legal Aid Society work, who pays the expenses?
Downey: You mean of the man who is employed?
Baum: Yes.
Downey: I think the Bar Association does that.
Baum: And how much time does the average attorney volunteer?
Downey: I think half a day a month or a day a month. I know
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the office volunteer their services. Jack is in
charge of that and I just know in general what he
does.
Baum: That's quite a problem for some people, those who
need and cannot afford legal advice. How do you
think that sho'/ild be handled? Do you think it should
be done in a charity manner?
Downey: I don't know that there is any other way to handle
it. I think of some of the people I have acted for
and never made them a charge. I wouldn't want to
make them a charge. There's a woman, for example,
who was our housekeeper for many years, a Danish
woman. I wouldn't charge her ten cents for anything
or her daughter. That same situation exists for
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other lawyers. There's a lot of that work done that
you don't hear anything about.
Baum: You approve of the Legal Aid Society?
Downey: The Leeal Aid Society is undoubtedly necessary. They
try to sort out the people who can't afford to pay
from those who can. Where a person has work to be
done and can arrange with an attorney to pay on a
contingency basis, even though they haven't got any
thing, they arrange it that way I think. I'm sure
they do a lot of work and I have no doubt it's work
well done.
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COMMENTS ON POLITICS
A Supporter of Hiram Johnson
Downey: I supported Johnson for governor. I was in Devlin's
office at that time and I was against the Southern
Pacific anyway, although they were attorneys for the
Southern Pacific. I supported him when he ran for
vice-president with Roosevelt. I was a Progressive
then and proudly wore a red bandana, a Bull-Mooser.
And Johnson was helpful to me in my flood control
measures in Washington. But when he turned on Wilson
and the League of Nations, that was my last love of
Johnson.
Baum: So you didn't continue to support Johnson after that?
Downey: I had nothing to do with him. Johnson was the worst
hater the world has ever produced. I don't know how
he could hate people as much as he could.
Baum: Did you favor the League of Nations?
Downey: Oh, very much so.
Baum: How did you vote in 19214., between LaFollette and
Coolidge and Davis?
Downey: I voted for LaPollette.
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Baum: In 1928 whom did you suoport?
Downey: Al Smith.
Baum: In 1932, before the election, in the primaries, I
think California was split over Garner or Roosevelt.
Downey: I had nothing to do with it.
Baum: You weren't in state r>olitics?
Downey: Only as I was dragged into it by Sheridan. That was
before his election as Senator, wasn't it? But he
was gunning after McAdoo right along there for some
time before he ran against him.
Baum: McAdoo was for Garner in 1932, I think.
Downey: I don't know.
Sheridan Downey, United States Senator
You know, you really ought to be writing Sheridan's
biography here. He was a genius pretty near, certainly
a dreamer. We both left college about the same time
and he went to Wvoming and became the district attorney
there and I came out here. He wanted to make a fight
in politics at that time, he went right into politics
like a duck to water and as usual he took the big boys
on. Senator Warren was senator from Wyoming at that
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time and the state of Wvominr had everything. We
had no population, but we had Warren and he got the
goods. He was the chairman of the Appropriations
Corririittee and he had another senator there from Wyo
ming who was chairman of the Judiciary Committee, two
of the big committees of the Senate. He was really
a power in the United States Senate. Nobody could
beat him. Couldn't contest the e]e ction with him.
That was just Sheridan's meat in those days. He made
a fight on Warren. He pretty near beat him, not
qaite. Warren was elected. Sheridan by that time
had to sell his stove and all his furniture to get
enough to live on. That's the tvpe of man he was,
an adventurer. So he said, "I'm through with politics,
I don't want to have anything more to do with it."
And he left there and came out here.
Then he went in with me. That was later, after
Jack Pullen and I had established our firm and Sheridan
came in. He held his nose right to the grindstone
and said, "I don't want any more politics." He was
sort of disillusioned by some of the things that went
on in Wyoming. So he practiced law and he practiced
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hard. As I say, as a trial lawyer, he was an out
standing man.
Then, after a number of years, he began to get
tired of that. He'd take on something and then he'd
get tired of it. He didn't like some of these cases.
He didn't know why he should fool around just defend
ing men charged with crime and getting them off. So
he decided to do something else.
Baum: Did he specialize in criminal cases?
Downey: Well, trial work. We both did, but he was particularly
good in some of these cases, in fact in all the trial
work. We worked very well together on the trial of
a case. He liked to do the work involved in the
examination of witnesses and the cross-examination;
I liked to take care of the legal end of it. We had
great success, I think.
But anyway he said, "I'm tired of all this stuff.
I'm going to quit this law business." He was dis-
illusioned again. "I'm going out and make some money."
He hadn't had any money since he'd left college, or
even then. He said, "Anyone can make money. I'll
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make a million dollars in a year, I'll bet you I will."
So then he started out to make money. That went on
and on and on. At that time there was no real estate
ma rke t .
Baum: This was in the 1920" s?
Downey: I guess about that. It wasn't the era of the depress
ion although it went into that. He didn't make a
million dollars, but he lost probably two or three
million. That's where I got complicated because I
was on some of his obligations.
So thet went on for a long time, until he was
so badly busted that he never could be financially
rehabilitated. Then he lost all interest in that,
except he continued to pay what he could, and he
still is paying right now. He wouldn't go through
bankruptcy.
Then he said, "I'm going into politics and re
form the country." By that time I had gotten so in
volved with him that I had to make another break.
Of course, he went into politics and that's all he
did for a number of years. You know the end of that,
he finally got out. A novel could be written on some
of those things.
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Baum: Why was Sheridan selected to investigate the Rolph
administration? Thst sort of out him into politics.
Downey: I'm sure thpfs true. That was about the time when
he was beginning to want to get into politics. He
was a close friend of Senator Jack Inman. I think
Inman conceived the idea of making this investigation
and Sheridan acted as the attorney and did quite a
job, as he alwavs could do when he was cross-examining
people or carrying on that sort of thing. I've for
gotten Just who he was investigating. He may not have
known, he was just investigating.
Baum: I think that's what made his reputation.
Downey: That gave him a start, but what really got him going
were these pensioners.
Baum: Whet did you think of Townsend and the Ham and Egg
plan?
Downey: I didn't think mich of the plan. Of course, you
admired Townsend. He's an idealist. I don't think
he ever thought very clearly, but he certainly started
the movement that's still with us. I believed and
Sheridan did.
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Baum:
Downey;
Baum:
Downey:
What did you think of Upton Sinclair's EPIC?
I donbted that too. There was a lot of fuzzy think
ing at that time, mine included. There were a lot
of things I liked about Upton and he and Sheridan
had Tany contacts and finally ended up arm in arm
for the governorship.
Did you support Sinclair in that election? I think
a lot of Democrats thought that was a little bit
far-fetched and they didn't go along all the way.
I don't think I voted for Upton. I voted for Sheridan
and campaigned. I did a lot of work for him.
I told you just a thumbnail sketch of Sheridan.
He started in in politics and then got out of it and
was driven out of Wyoming, so to speak. Then he got
in to making a million dollers and all he did was
accumulate debts for several million dollars. With
a rising market, things might have been different.
Then he got back into politics. He told me he was
all through with politics after he left Wyoming. Then
one day I was lying at home with a broken skull, one
of my horseback accidents. I wasn't even supposed to
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talk to anybody. Sheridan came In and he'd been
somewhere, Arizona, and said, "I'm going to run
for Congress." He hadn't been in politics in Cali
fornia at all. I said, "Sheridan, that's quite a job."
"No, I'm arranging now to get the hall." He got the
auditorium. Of course, I was there at the auditorium.
That was the opening of his campaign for congressman.
He hadn't had any stste positions.
Baum: That must have been in 1932.
Downey: It must have been. He was defeated. He held this
meeting down there. The auditorium seats about 5>000
people. I think there were maybe 5>0 of us there,
certainly not more. I was there. But that didn't
daunt him a bit. He paid for hiring the auditorium
too. He ran for Congress a couple of times and then
he went up for the big stuff. Lieutenant-Governor
and then senator. He went up fast when he went up,
Baum: I was wondering how Sheridan got along with Johnson
when he went to the Senate.
Downey: When Sheridan went to the Senate, I'm sure Johnson
was rather indifferent. In fact, most of the people
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in the state, except the extreme pensioners, etc.,
were against Sheridan. He was elected largely on
the Townsend vote.
Baum: He heat McAdoo though.
Downey: Yes, but ^cAdoo was pretty unpopular. It was a
Democratic year, after the depression. Johnson
is not the type who cared for anybody particularly
except that he had some very warm friends. When
Sheridan came there I think Johnson was rather in
different to him. But they became rather close as
time went by until Sheridan made a national broadcast
answering Johnson on Roosevelt's third term. Johnson
had made some nationwide broadcasts and P. D. Roose
velt asked Sheridan to answer it, which he did and
did well. Johnson never forgave him for that. That
was a tyoical Johnson reaction. He hated Sheridan
from that moment on and so bitterly, it was a horrible
thing that a man could hate so much. But after Johnson's
death Sheridan became very helpful to **rs. Johnson,
and there was a period in there before Johnson broke
down when I think he and Sheridan became rather close
again.
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Baum: Didn't Sheridan support Johnson for the Senate in the
1920 's?
Downey: I d?n't know. Those were the years when he wasn't
in politics.
Baum: Sheridan's appointees were for all kinds of Jobs,
weren't they?
Downey: Everything. Of course, they were largely presidential
appointments, but generally they follow the recommenda
tion of the Senator, although Sheridan's relations
with Truman became rather strained before he finally
Rfot out of there. They were very close when Truman
went in as President. I recommended one man to
Sheridan for aopointment as a judge, who was a Re
publican. He was a good man and a very close friend
of mine. Sheridan didn't want to recommend him, he
wanted to recommend somebody else, but he finally did
recommend him and he got the appointment. Truman
made that apoointrnent. But after that all hell burst
loose. The Central Committee met and they weren't
going to have anybody appointed to these offices who
wasn't a Democrat and they never did after that either,
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276
at least under the Truman administration so far as I
know. That created a controversy at that time. The
funny thing about it was, he was a Republican and
when Eisenhower came in he was about the only Republican
available for a certain appointment, so he went on
up, A wonderful man.
Baum: When you recommended appointees. . .well, first of
all, you chose men you knew.
Downey: Not always, generally. In that particular case I
did. But very often they came around to you, especially
with Sheridan, because my relations with him were so
affectionate. If anybody heard of any aopointment
about to be made by the President, or where the
United States Senator would have some say about it,
they often came to me, "Would you recommend me to your
brother." Most of those were solicited. In some
cases, in this case I just mentioned I made the
suggestion myself to Sheridan.
Baum: Didn't that make you qiite a political power?
Downey: People didn't knew about it. That's what worries me
about some of these conferences I'm having with you.
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You tell people and they'll soot you. No, it didn't.
I think that was just a natural thing to go to
Sheridan's brother. Sheridan and I were so very close
Some of the solicitations were rather absurd, you
know. Some did you some good and some didn't.
Baum: Did you consider political problems in recommending
these people, as to what groups they might be accept
able to?
Downey: I didn't, and I don't think Sheridan did. I give
Sheridan credit for his nbrninatinns. The appointments
that were made by his recommendation, I think, would
stand up very, very high. Most of them were, even
the appointment he made of the Director of the Income
Tax Department, they tried to find something wrong
with him but never succeeded. Of course, that's one
place honesty is essential. The only thing you could
ever say about that particular appointment was that
he was very friendly with people and sometimes did
things that he shouldn't have done. I don't mean
anything corrupt, everything legal, but a public
officer who likes people and wants to do things for
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them sometimes goes too far. Even I find that
difficulty and I'm not in public office and never
would be in public office. That's one reason I wouldn't
like to be.
Baum: I wondered why Sheridan resigned from the Senate be
fore the end of his term.
Downey: You know he got sick there. Later on, you mean.
Baum: Yes, 19^0.
Downey: He didn't want to stop. He wanted to go on. I wanted
him to get out of there for a great many reasons. He
was overworked, he was sick, too much strain. We
carried on long distance phone calls, and finally his
wife, who agreed with me and his son, Sheridan Jr.,
we all ganged up on him and he agreed not to run. But
then the actual resignation, I think, was done so that
Nixon could get that priority. Sheridan likes
Nixon and Nixon likes Sheridan.
Baum: Then this was a personal friendship...
Downey: Sheridan by that time didn't like Truman, he didn't
like the Reclamation Bureau, he didn't like the powers
there. He was happv that Nixon beat Helen Gahaghan
Douglas. He didn't like her either.
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Baum: How did you vote In that election?
Downey: I didn't vote for Helen Gahaghan Douglas. I don't
believe I voted for Nixon. I must have though, un
less I didn't vote. Sheridan claimed when Nixon
was investigating Hiss, that every member of every
Communist cell in the United States was alerted and
told to go out and reoort things that were derogatory
to Nixon, some of them the truth and some not the
truth. And that was where the bitter fight against
Nixon began and has never ceased. Sheridan says the
fight against Nixon is really an unjust attempt by
the Communist Party to destroy him.
Maybe Sheridan's feelings in so many matters arose
from the attempts by the Communists in Washington to
get him like they tried to get LaPollette.
Contact With California Governors
Downey: Let me say a word about the governors you ask about.
I'm very careful what I say about the governors.
I've had the confidence of some of the governors.
RolphjMerriam, Young occasionally. Culbert Olson,
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maybe, I don't know. He could be impulsive and ex
plosive, you know.
Baum: Were you the conservative influence on Olson? Keep
him from getting too wild?
Downey: No, I don't t^ink I was. Culbert--he was a man who
could be very drastic. I talked or wrote to him about
offices and appointments and things like that once
in awhile. I talked to Warren mgjay, many times. I
wouldn't use the dignified term "consult", but I
talked to him about many, many matters. The set-up
of many of his organizations like the Water Board,
the Railroad Commission. Yes, I talked to him often.
We were on a basis where we could talk to each other.
I had the highest regerd for him.
Baum: Did you ever come into contact with Clem Whitaker,
who worked for Warren?
Downey: No.
Baum: What was the basis of your friendship since he's a
Republican and you're a Democrat?
Downey: I've know him for many years. He was interested in
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Baum:
Downey:
our proceedings, this SMUD matter, before the Public
Utilities Commission. He was then the Attorney-
General. He wanted to talk over certain of the aspects
of it. Then, when we got to this organization...
The Sacramento Valley Water Users. There has to be
some adiustTnent between the Reclamation Bureau and
the owners of land along the Sacramento Hi-er and the
American River as to what water is to be sold them
from Shasta and the price, he was very much interested
in that. We finally signed a memorandum agreement
in an attempt to work that out. He signed that for
the state. We talked that over. So many of these
things. It was nothing just to call him up and walk
over and talk to him a few minutes or go out to lunch
with him. I'm very, very fond of Earl.
You say he consulted you on appointments sometimes?
What kind of qualifications did you recommend for
people?
Well, for example, when they first set up the Water
Board he was interested in knowing who would make good
men there and I gave him my views on that because I
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282
was of course very familiar with the people who were
active in water matters.
Baum: Then was it primarily in water matters that you talked
with him or were there a lot of other subjects?
Downey: A lot of other things too. I talked to him particularly
about t is fight with the University faculty, when
they had this fipht on Communism, on the loyalty oath.
Warren asked me to go on the University's Board of
Regents. I couldn't take it at that time because
I was so tied up. That was at the time they were hav
ing that fight on Communistic activities and so forth.
I didn't take it, I wish I had now. That's quite a
Board. I would have liked to have been on it.
I have decided views on the loyalty oath, and the
funny thing about that was that the Regents asked me
to take their case on that. I was on the opposite
side, you know. I just told them "No." I was on the
other side.
Baum: You were against the loyalty oath?
Downey: Yes, I was against the loyalty oath. I talked it
over with some of the men there, the instructors.
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Baum:
Downey:
They signed it, they .lust said, "Oh well, what the
heck." It just seemed to me it went too far. I felt
that if I was a professor I wouldn't take that oath
either. I don't know why, except it seemed to me
unnecessary to do it.
But Warren, I did have very close contact with.
He comes drifting into the office here occasionally
when he comes away from Washington. It's quite some
thing to see the Chief Justice of the United States
walking into your office, "Hi." He's just that in
formal. I have been not close at all with Governor
Knight. I was very much afraid when he went in, but
I think he's made a good governor. He got me on one
of his committees now, the Citizens Committee on
Water Problems.
United States Senators Kuchel and Knowland
Do you recommend appointees to Kuchel or Knowland?
No, I don't think I have. I'm close to Tom Kuchel.
I have written to Knowland about appointments, but
I've never been soliticted by either of them to make
recommendations .
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey:
Tom Kuchel Is a very friendly man. He's a
fellow you can talk to freely. I don't think he's
ever asked me my opinion about any apoointments. I'm
sure Knowland hasn't, but I've made s ome recommenda
tions to him which he didn't follow, I don't think.
How did you become acquainted with Kuchel?
Tom was here in Sacramento, he was Controller for
many years. I knew him. I had a number of dealings
with him when he first went to the Senate. He has
always been very helpful. He didn't have the power
Knowland has, but he was an «asy man to work with.
You supoorted Kuchel in 195^-, didn't you?
Yes. I've supported Kuchel twice now. I'm fond of
him. He's very warm, you know. Knowland, lots of
people think, is rather cold. I haven't found him
that way. But Kuchel is a human type.
And he's done a lot of work for SMJD? Is that right?
Yes, he has. And for our port. So has Knowland.
Is that why you thought you should support Kuchel
instead of . . .was it Yorty? In
I think he's made a good senator. I never cared par
ticularly for his opponents on the Democratic ticket.
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Baum: How did you come to know Knowland?
Downey: Here's the story. A number of years ago I was
representing newspapers of California before the
legislature and there was a law that had been en
acted which forced the payment of a use tax. That
was to take the place of a sales tax because they
couldn't collect a sales tax where the goods were
purchased out of the state. We finally fell to
the fact that newsprint was within that law and
was being taxed. Practically all the newsprint
came from outside the state of California and that
tax was a heavy burden. We didn't think it was
fair for many reasons. So the newspaper people,
being like all of us, didn't want to pay any more
taxes than they had to. So they conceived the idea
of amending the law to exempt newsprint from the
tax. We had a very outstanding man who handled the
legislation. The business was confided to him to
get the bill through the legislature that would
exempt newsprint from the use tax. I didn't have
much to do with the lobbying for it.
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Baum: This was done by another man in your firm?
Downey: No, another man in the newspaper association. Any
way, he handled the legislation and I sometimes con
ferred with him.
So he got the bill through t he legislature exempting
the newsprint and that was quite a saving to the
newspapers.
Here's the point of the story. When the count
was made of people voting for and against, there was
only one man in the legislature that voted against
it, and that was Knowland as I remember. I oauldn't
help but admire the man because he just said, "No."
He did it undoubtedly because he w as leaning over
backward on a matter in which he was interested, his
father owned the Oakland Tribune. So I had a secret
admiration, although he was against my side of the
case. He never knew it. I just met him, that was all.
Years went by and I became very opposed to his
foreign views. Finally, when I was in Europe one
time, he was elected to the Senate. He became rapid
ly a power. And the funny thing about it is, while
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I've been against him on his foreign policies and
on a good many of his domestic issues, the more I've
seen of him the more I've come to like him and respect
him. I admire his ability and courage. He's got great
ability. He's got great energy, he's got infinite
capacity for work. I've seen that a t a distance.
So finally I became very closely associated with
him in connection with this SMUD matter. That's
another thing, I know he encountered bitter oooosition
to what we wanted him to do a nd what he did do from
the P.O. & E. I liked him for that, it took courage,.
I think he's got the qualities of a statesman, though
I don't agree with some of his views... and I'm beginning
to waver on that too. He's made a number of speeches
here that have been very impressive to me. I might
become a Knowland man soon—all the way, and vote for
him for President, Democrat though I am.
So anyway I've become very fond of Knowland.
He knows I've been against him politically. One time
he said to me, "If Eisenhower wins andwe elect the
Congress, I'll be chairman of the Appropriations
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Committee." And he winked at me, knowing I was
against Elsenhower. Well, he didn't win, I don't
know what the story Is now.
But he's a man.
Baum: You say you offered him your support If he runs for
governor?
Downey: That's another question, maybe I'll support him for
President. Arthur Krock has one of those gossipy
articles on political matters in the New York Times
and he has a big two column article on what is Know-
land going to do. He thinks he's just maneuvering
i
to be in a strategic position to take off f or t he
presidency in I960. Knowland said to me on a number
of occasions. , ."you know people never believe what
a nolitician tells them". .. speaking about Sheridan
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retiring from the Senate, "I tell you, Sheridan is
dead right. This thing kills you." Thatwas when I
was back in Washington and Sheridan had re signed, and
the way he works now is terrific. You go into his
office about six o'clock and you might stand a chance
of seeing him, he might be in there. The rest of the
day he has all kinds of appointments with members of
the cabinet and so forth. But he's on the job at
six o'clock and at twelve at night.
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CIVIC WORK
Baum: I want to ask you about your civic organization work.
Downey: I can give that to you very quickly.
Baum: You told me about this interesting problem you had
in the TJ.S.O. over the racial question.
Downey: Yes, we had this interracial unit. I was president
of the U.S.O. and there vas a lot of fighting about
that, but we stood our ground and maintained this
interracial unit. It was a great success, I believe.
It was for all the races. The white people and all
the other races went there and they seemed to get
along well. Then we had another unit which we used
just for the benefit of the white people and eventually
we took all races into that too. There were a lot
of soldiers out here, Negroes. You go into the
interracial unit and the boys would be mingling together
and getting along very nicely.
I was the chairman of a fact-finding committee
here, shortly after the war, on hospitals. Like every
place else, our hospitals had been run down and we
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
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didn't have enough. As a result of that factual
reiort on the necessity of getting additional hos
pital facilities here, we had these drives for
additional beds at the Sisters Hospital and at the
Sutter Hospital. The Setter uospital raised over
two million dollars, I think, and the Sisters Hos-
oltal raised about a million. We had adequate hos
pital facilities at the time but now our growth
is giving us trouble again.
I didn't take much part in the campaign, but I
t^ink my report. .. they call it the Downey report...
was rather the fundamental basis. I've always been
a little bit proud of that.
You've also worked on Community Chest, haven't you?
Yes, I was president of Comrunity Chest. That goes
back a long ways.
1933.
And the Boy Scouts, you've been on that a long time.
I was president of the Golden Empire Council of the
Boy Scouts. That embraces several counties here in
Northern California. I was always very fond of that
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work. I'm still a trustee of the property and funds
of the Boy Scouts, but for a number of years I put
in a lot of time on that.
You know, my life seems so unimportant. I've
done some things in my life; nobody knows about them,
thank goodness, (laughter)
Baum: You were on the California Museum Association.
Downey: Well, that wasn't much. They have the Crocker Art
Gallery managed by this Museum Association, called
the Crocker Art Board. I'm on that board. I recently
resigned and they haven't accepted my resignation.
I've been on that for a good many years. It is quite
a museum. It isn't like some of the museums we saw
in Europe, or even in Washington, but it's a good
museum.
Baum: And you were on the Sacramento County Probation
Commission, 19i|7 to 19^0.
Downey: I worked hard on that. They were having a reorganiza
tion of the juvenile probation department. They had
to get a new board and I went on it. That was finally
worked out and I got out. Not very nice work.
Baum: What? Juvenile delinquents?
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Downey: Well, the problems of delinquency and all. The
operations of juvenile halls, it's a little depress
ing. But it has to be done. Getting rid of the
probation officers in that office and setting up new
ones.
Baura: When was the work you did on the off-street parking
revenue bonds?
Downey: It would be a guess, probably four or five years ago.
I was representing the City of Sacramento on that.
We took this property for off-street parking. We had
to condemn. ..there was a lot of opposition at that
time, but we issued these revenue bonds. They are
now making tiers, double-decking them.
Baura: What was the opposition?
Downey: A number of peonle had parking lots of their own and
they didn't want to get into competition with the
public. The usual thing. Some people thought it was
socialistic for the city to go into that sort of thing,
There was the opposition of a number of the property
owners whose property we took. Some people claimed it
was just a device of Breuners to get a parking area
across from their store. But it worked out.
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Baura: Was there any fear it wouldn't pay?
Downey: Yes, a good many peoole thought It wouldn't pay, but
the bonds have paid. In fact, we've accumulated
enough from the bonds we sold before in income to
handle this extra expense, although I haven't handled
that.
Baum: I would expect that the downtown merchants are now
very pleased about it.
Downey: Oh yes, I think everybody recognizes now that it's
been a great success.
Baum: Are you a member of the Chamber of Commerce of
Sacramento?
Downey: Yes, the firm is.
Baum: Are you active in those affairs?
Downey: No, not particularly. Oh, there are several affairs
come up that you have to participate in, but I don't
do too much of it.
Baum: I notice that they appointed you as chairman for the
Polsom Dam dedication.
Downey: Yes. That's true. That was sponsored by the Chamber
of Commerce. As a matter of fact, we had an election,
I wouldn't serve unless I was elected. They called
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together all the people v:ho were interested in water
and then they elected me. I ^ot this award that tells
the story. There wasn't much to tMs, except it was
a lot of work. At the Chamber's annual dinner the
other night they awarded me this.
CITATION. ANNUAL PRESIDENT'S AWARD SACRAMENTO
CITY- COUNTY CHAMBER OP COMMERCE
"Stephen W. Downey, of Downey, Brand, Seymour &
Rohwer, was Chairman of one of the most highly organized
committees this Chamber has ever had in the 6l year
history; to stage perhaps the largest event held in
this area in many years. Because of the high acclaim
he has earned as an authority on water problems, he
was named Chairman of the Committee for the Dedication
of Polsom Dam. Through this tremendous project this
Chamber earned world-wide publicity from newsreel,
television, newspaper and radio coverage. This
Chamber received great recognition for a well executed
day of events which took more than a year of planning
by Mr. Downey's Committee and the co-ordinated activi
ties of nearly 1,000 persons."
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Baum: I see that you have been to Europe a couple of times.
Downey: Oh my, yes. Had a good time too. The last trip was
really for the purpose of going to Scandinavia. I
wanted to see the welfare state. I loved Denmark
and Norway.
Baum: What was your interest in the welfare state?
Doviney: I just wanted to see how they were operating. Den
mark is certainly a welfare state. Well, all of them
are, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. Of course, many
people who are opposed to them hope they will go
broke pretty soon. But they were awfully nice. I
like what they are doing for all the peoole. We are
not in the class with them in many respects. Oh,
I loved all the trip. England. Ireland where my
ancestors came from. Switzerland.
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APPENDIX
Further Biographical Information .
Childhood in Laramie
Baum: How would you describe your mother's parents?
Downey: I never knew my mother's father. I knew Mother's
mother. She was kind of an adventurer too. She
was still traveling around the world when she was
eighty years old. We used to say she had gypsy
blood.
Baum: What did your mother look like?
Downey: My youngest daughter looks just like Mother, small
but wiry, wiry, chuck full of energy. She loved
people and people loved her. She was always do
ing something, she didn't know what it was to be
quiet. But she told me she couldn't have taken
care of her children unless she had a rest of about
fifteen or twenty minutes at noon time.
They tell the story that when she came through
Chicago on the way to the University of Michigan she
wanted the three girls to see the theater so she took
the whole bunch of them to the theater, carrying all
the things she was taking with her to Ann Arbor.
That was Mother.
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Baum: She must have been awfully busy just taking care of
the family.
Downey: She was. Of course, we were all born and reared right
in Laramie, no hospitals. We had help generally.
You could get help cheap in those days. But no
toilets, washing day, baking day, ironing day. No
electrical gadgets.
Baum: Did you have a large house?
Downey: A very lar.<?e house. Every once in awhile when
another child would come into the world we'd put on
another room. It was all on the ground floor. It
was right in town.
Baum: But you had a cow?
Downey: Oh yes, we had two or three cows and a few horses.
Baum: What did you think of the schools in Laramie?
Did yoxi like grammar school?
Downey: I don't know whether children are just supposed to say
they don't like it and so they don't. No, I don't
think I liked it. It was like going to Sunday School.
I used to hate to go to Sunday school, at least I al
ways thought that, but Mother cured me of that.
Baum: Did you feel you got a good basic foundation in your
elementary education?
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Downey: Yes, I certainly did, just as I feel that the environ
ment under which I was raised in Laramie was a good
environment. We had lots of good times in Laramie,
at school and in the home and playing football. I
played on the University of Laramie football team.
They didn't have much of a team then, now they do.
Laramie was Just a country community right on
the prairie, and it was cold there. Fifty below zero
was nothing-rugged living. It might seem like it
was a very dry life, but it wasn't. We had awfully
good times. We'd go twenty miles out in the country
and cook dinner, drown out gophers and hunt, very ad
venturous. There were all the outdoor activities.
Right within a few railes of Laramie you'd see a herd
of several thousand antelope.
Baum: Did you have lots of children to play with or just
your family?
Downey: Oh, there were lots of boys there and girls.
Baum: Did you have a library in town?
Downey: Oh, Father had lots of books. The whole family loved
books. My father used to read a lot to the family.
He had a beautiful voice. Maybe after dinner he'd
sit down and read from the Iliad or the Odyssey. We
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Baum:
Downey:
Baum:
Downey ;
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Downey;
enjoyed it. We weren't highbrows at all but there
wasn't anything else to do. No movies, no radio,
no TV.
They'd have these literary clubs. Someone
would come in with a oaper on Browning, someone with
a paper on Tennyson. Nobody thought of going any
where except out to see friends. And the blizzards-
you could get lost between the house and the barn.
Mother and Father and my oldest sister all had their
own groups. I can remember many a night peeking
around the door to hear somebody giving a paper.
Bill Nye maybe.
Were there any art groups?
Ther^ orobably were. Mother painted paintings in
addition to her painting china. She started going
away every other year to Chicago to take lessons so
as to keep up with her painting. But I don't have
any recollections of any art groups.
Did you have a theater or anything of that kind?
There was a barn they called a theater and once in
awhile somebody would come there.
Did your parents participate in church activities?
They were both strong Episcopalians.
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Father was very active In the church and Mother too.
They were then trying to build the cathedral at
Laramie and they were having trouble getting money.
They were building that cathedral during most of my
youth. It was finally built, a very oretty little
cathedral, built since I left Laramie. I don't re
member any great many social activities in connection
with the church, but there undoubtedly were.
Baum: Were your parents very religious?
Downey: Well, they were more religious than I am, I'm sorry
to say. They never failed to go to church. I fail
very often. We always started breakfast with the
Lord's Prayer, the whole family. Everybody would
kneel downand say the Lord's Prayer. That was a
time when we'd play pranks. We had a dog there and
he used to always go out in the kitchen when we were
saying the Lord's Prayer and steal anything he could
find in the way of meat. And we had grace said every
meal. Those things don't happen in my house.
They do happen at my childrens ' houses, but I've never
heard them say the Lord's Prayer like that, kneeling
down on the floor.
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Baum: What haopened If you got caught olaying pranks?
Downey: I always said we did get whipped once in awhile but
Mother said she never whipped any of her children.
Mother was a good disciplinarian. Father, I don't
think he ever even reprimanded me, though he had
quite a teraoer when he was aroused. We had very
little of that in the home.
Baum: Did your father take much charge of the children or
was that your mother's Job?
Downey: That was Mother's job.
Baum: He must have been out of town a lot.
Downey: Yes, he was a good deal, always coming home with
presents. He used to olay with us some, football,
baseball, but I think Mother was the disciplinarian.
She was Napoleon.
Mother retained that energy of hers until near
the end of her life. After Father died she held the
family together. Then my oldest sister died. She
had kept Mother in touch with the world, which Mother
loved so much. She loved life and activity. When
her daughter, the first to go, went like that.
Sheridan and I had left home — and she never quite
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recovered from that. She was nearly eighty when she
died, but she bep;an to fail then.
Baum: She must have been a lot younger than your father.
Downey: Yes, she was. She was only eighteen when she married
Father. Father must have been then about thirty-five.
Baum: Did this big family of brothers and sisters get along
well together or was there a lot of scrapping?
Downey: Very little. We all lived there in Laramie very happi
ly. Then the girls began to marry and branch out.
Sheridan and I went to law school and to California
later on. I can't remember anything except happiness.
Baum: You say your motherwas so fond of your oldest sister.
Do you think she preferred the girls?
Downey: You see, the oldest sister never married. She was
right home with Mother. She became very successful
and rather famous in her scientific work. Finally
she decided she'd take Mother around the world. Travel
to Mother v;as lust one of those wonderful things that
came to people rarely. My sister took her around the
world and oh, how she counted on that trip. The
funny thing was that my sister got horribly seasick
and she was sick practically all the time, but Mother
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on the other hand, very healthy and robust, she wasn't
fazed at all. Poor June, my sister, couldn't see the
things she wanted to see, but Mother had the time of
her life.
Baum: What businesses have your brothers gone into?
Downey: My oldest brother, Corlet, practiced law. He went
in with Father in Laramie. He died some years ago.
He was quite an active man in the state, a Republican.
They were all good Republicans, and Sheridan and I
branched off to the Democratic Party.
Baum: Oh, I just assumed your father was a Democrat from
Maryland .
Downey: I suppose that was the Civil War tradition. He was
a strong Republican, delegate to many of the national
conventions.
I had another brother, he's also d ead now. He
was the kind of a man who did everything. He was
driving a horse drawn stage just before he died.
The girls practically all married and left the
state. As a matter of fact, there's no Downey in
Laramie now. The girls married all over the country.
There were two who didn't, June and the next oldest
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Baum:
Downey
to June, Norma. Norma early began to assume the
burdens of the family. A domestic girl who loved
children. She almost took as much care of me as
my mother did. During World War I when my first
wife died while I was In Prance, she Immediately came
and took my children. Just successively through the
family she would assume the burdens--they weren't
burdens to her—of raising all the children of my
brothers and sisters. She just recently died.
She was nearly eighty at that time. She certainly
did her part, and she loved It. What a saint!
The most selfless person I ever knew.
Children
Can you tell me a little more about your four
children?
John, my oldest son, is a member of the firm here
with me. Stephen is a colonel in the army, teaching
at the present time at the Army War College. My
oldest daughter, Wendy (she named herself from Peter
Pan, she didn't like the name we crave her), Is the
wife of Henry Teichert, General Manager of A. Telch-
ert Company, Contractors. The other daughter, Tink
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(she called herself — Peter Pan again), is the wife
of Dr. Prank J. Boutin, orthopedic surgeon,
All four of them went to Stanford. When my son
Jack went to Stanford I thought he was doing a wise
thing. He made his own decision, but I never discussed
with him about going to Michigan. He was a fraternity
man at Stanford. My other son was a fraternity man
too.
Stephen went to the New Mexico Military Academy,
he was very strong for the military work. Then he
went to Stanford and was comm' ssioned and went right
into the regular army in 1939. That was the year
they allowed a certain number of what they called
"distinguished graduates in military work" to be placed
in the regular army with the West Point Glass. Both
boys were wounded in the war and cited for heroic
conduct.
Baum: What were your sons' undergraduate majors?
Downey: Stephen was always interested in international rela
tions and he was interested in law too and took the
work in law. Now, he's been trying to arrange his
work so that he can take a course at one of the
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universities and get a degree In International re
lations, but he's been too busy. I think John
-najored in law right in his undergraduate years.
Baum: And what did the girls take up?
Downey: Well, poetry mostly for Wendy. She stayed after
she graduated there and wrote a book in poetry.
She was always that type. Tink was one of those
practical kids. She would do things that would have
some realistic result right in her own home.
Baum: Did either of them work after they graduated?
Downey: Wendy went into the Army, the WAGS, shortly after
she rraduated and continued until almost the close
of the war. Tink got married and her husband was
in the army so t hey were right in the military life.
Her husband went right to Walter Reed Hospital. She
was there and then they came out and she began having
children and now she has five of them.
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List of Major Cases for the Reclamation Board
Sutter Butte By-Pass Assessment No. _6, 191 Cal. 650
William Ash Co. , v. Reclamation Board. 266 TI.S. £89
Reclamation District Nb. 1500 v Riley. 192 Cal.
Sacramento and San Joaquin Drainage District v. Johnson,
192 Cal. 211
Sacramento and San Joaquin Drainage District v. Riley,
19i|. Cal. 62IT
We stern Assurance Company v. Sacramento and San Joaquin,
72 Cal. App. 66
. Joaquin Drainage District v. Superior
Court, 196 Cal. klk
Seufert v. Cook. 7!; Cal. App. 528
Reclamation District No. 1 5.0.0 v. Reclamation Board,
197 Cal. lj.82
Sacramento and San Joaquin Drainage District v. Riley,
199 Cal. 668~
Reclamation Board v. Riley. 208 Cal. 661
Grant Report contained in Senate Document No. 23, 69th
Congress, Second Session, (January 5, 1925)
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308
Mr. Downey's Three Most Significant Cases
It is difficult to oick three cases out of many
now buried in the past, but I'll take a chance and
submit the following:
1. West Coast Life Insurance Company v. Merced
on District, 11U. Fed. 2d 6 54.
(Cert, denied by IT. S. Supreme Court 331
U.S. 718.)
In this case Merced Irrigation District brought
a proceeding in the Federal Court to have confirmed
a plan of composition of Its indebtedness aggregat
ing several million dollars under the Municipal
Bankruptcy Act. The United States Supreme Court had
first held this law unconstitutional and later re
versed itself. Without a decree confirming the plan,
refinancing of the District was impossible. In
addition to the case itself, dozens of other collateral
cases were pending wherein validity of the plan of
composition was involved and also it was necessary
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to carry on legislative, legal and financial matters
in Washington. The primary question in the case was
whether the plan of composition was fair, that is,
whether lands in the District could pay in excess of
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309
the bond is~ue contemplated by the plan. The District
relied upon a scientific study and report made by
the University of California Giannlni Foundation
through Dr. Benedict based upon the examination of
the taxpaying ability of the landowners. After elabor
ate testimony and argument in both the lower and the
upper courts, the plan was approved and subsequently
the District was refinanced.
2. Sacramento Municipal Utility District
initiated proceedings before the California Railroad
Commission, now Public Utilities Commission, leading
to condemnation of the Pacific Gas and Electric Com
pany's distribution system in Sacramento. This was to
obtain valuation of the property desired to b e acquired.
U4 CRC U67-516
The opinion of the Railroad Commission is an
outstanding authority.
After determination of the value by the Commission,
the second phase of condemnation was begun, namely, a
proceeding in the Superior Court for a decree of con
demnation. Many legal questions of great interest
were involved. Judgment followed for the District,
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310
followed by an appeal and judgment was affirmed.
SMCTD v. P.G. fr. E., 72 Cal. App. 2d 638.
3. Sacramento and San Joaquin Drainage District
v. Riley. 199 Cal. 668, and particularly at page 68?,
et seq. , is an outstanding authority covering the ex
tent to which the State may by appropriation and
otherwise aid in the accomplishment of the Flood Con
trol Project. This case, together with In Re Sutter-
Butte By-Pass Assessment No. £>, 191 Cal. 650,
American River Flood Control District v. Sweet, 2ll|
Cal. 7?8 » and the other cases cited by the Supreme
Court in these cases, giv<~:s a good history of the
Flood Control Project leading up to the approval by
Congress of the Grant Report thus easing the burdens
of the landowners.
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PARTIAL INDEX TO DOWNEY MANUSCRIPT
American River Flood Control District Act-192? 193-196,
Antioch, City of 219
Banks, Harvey 206, 213
Barnes, Harry Hl|
Bartlett, Louis 123
Barton, Colonel Itf t 69
Benedict, Dr. Murray 96-97, 309
Boke, Dickie 116
Bonte, Harmon 187
Brand, Clyde E. 2l|9,
California Irrigation and Reclamation Financing and
Refinancing Comrission 186-188
California State Bar 223
California State Reclamation Board 56, 111;, 166, 21^.7, 30?
California Water Department 206-210
Cattle King 88
Centenniel Vein 3
Central California Irrigation District 197-200
Central Velley Project lJj.8-15^, 208-210
Civic Work 289
C owe 11, Al 81, 118
Curry, Charley lj.7
Dabney Plan 39
Devlin, Bill 18, 266
Devlin on Deeds 22
Douglas, Helen Gahaghan 279
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312
Downey, Brand, Seymour and Rohwer 2ij.9
Downey, Corlet 303
Downey, June 6-8
Downey, Sheridan 30, 111-116, 267-279
Downey, Stephen W. (Sr.) 1-8
Dunn and Brand 31
Durbrow, Bob 11?
Dwyer, Bill 59-60
East Contra Costa Irrigation District l83-l8t(.
Edmondston, A. D. "Bob" 208
Elkus, Albert 129-130
Engle, Clair 209, 211
Etcheverry, Bernard A. lj.7, 57, 177, 193
Family of Stephen Downey 1-8, 296
Farmer, Milton 105
Folsom Dam dedication 293-2914-
Freeman, Frank 66
Friant Dam Site 108-110
Gadd, Peter 67, 7*J-
Given, Bert 125
Grant, Mrs. Frederick Dent 1|7
Grant, Major 1U)-
Grant Report 50
Grunsky Project 39
Heine s, Judge 105-lo8
Havenner, Frannk
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313
Herminghaus case 8?
Heron, Al 191;
Herrington, George 100
Ickes, Harold 126-12?
Inman, Senator Jack 271
Irrigation District Association 117-122
Johnson, Hiram lj.0, 266-273, 273-275
Jones, Herbert C. 61
Judges, appointment of 237-238
Kiesel, Fred 186
Knight, Governor Goodwin 283
Knights Landing Ridge Drainage District 167
Knowland, William I5l-l£lj., 202, 283-289
Kuchel, Thomas 151-151;, 202, 283-289
Lambert, Charlie 216
Landis and Brody 259
Laramie, Wyoming 1-8, 296-298
Law, type of cases handled
League of Nations 266
Legal Aid Society 263
Legal Profession 220-265
Legal Study 9-16, 20-22
Loyalty oaths
McAdoo, William Gibbs 267, 271;
McCaffrey, James E. 121-132, lltf, 155-159, 161
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McClatchy, V. S. ij.2
McDonough, Martin 2^0, llj.5, 216, 258
Mclntire, Persia 32
Mason, J. Rupert 103
Merced Irrigation District 80-lOi;, 182-183, 185-187, 308
.etteer, Charles 75
Miller and Lux 86, 105, 198-200
Miller, Royal 129-131, 155-159
Nevada 17-18
Nixon, Richard M. 278
Nutting, Franklin P. 96
Olney, Judge Warren 135-136
Olson, Culbert 235-237, 279
Pacific Gas and Electric Company 125, liL2-li|5, Ii*.8-l50, 161-165
Peck, Jim 92
Public Utilities Commission 137-ll|.3
Pullen, John P. 23, 30
Radin, Max 235
Reclamation Districts - general comments 166-192
Reclamation District 108 167, 169, 171-188, 217
Reclamation District 999 167
Reclamation District 1001 75
Reclamation District 1002 168
Reclamation District lOOlj. 167, 185
Reclamation District 1500 56, 166, 169
Reclamation District - West Side Levee 167
Richardson, Governor 65
Robinson, C. Ray 197
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315
Rohwer, Otto 250, 251
Sachse, Richard 1^1
Sacramento BEE 128, 157, 163
Sacramento Municipal Utility District 123-165, 2i).7, 309
Sacramento Port District 202-205
Sacramento River and Delta Water Association 2!lj.
Sacramento River Water Rights 211-219
Sacramento-San Joaquin Drainage District 31;, 5l» 310
Sargent, H. P. 102
San Joaquin Light and Power Company 90
Seymour, Harry B. 31, 250, 251
Shinn, Bob 13^
Sinclair, Upton 2?2
Spencer, Al l±j
Streub, Thomas 136-137
Taylor, General lj.7
Thelen, Max 9i|-97
They Would Rule the Valley 113
Thomas, Colonel 1
Townsend, Ham and Egg Plan 271, 271;
Treadwell, Edward P. 86-88, 105
Trials - general comments 238
Tule Lake Irrigation District 197
United States Board of Engineers of Rivers and Harbors l±8
United States Bureau of Reclamation 109-116, 119-120, 215-216
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316
United States California Debris Commission 38,
United States Reconstruction Finance Corporation 102-103
University of Michigan 9-16
University of Wyoming 7-8
Wagner, Walter H8
Warren, .Governor Earl 153, 209, 235, 280-283
Water Rights cases 8lj.
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