(navigation image)
Home American Libraries | Canadian Libraries | Universal Library | Community Texts | Project Gutenberg | Children's Library | Biodiversity Heritage Library | Additional Collections
Search: Advanced Search
Anonymous User (login or join us)
Upload
See other formats

Full text of "Communism in the New York area (entertainment) : hearings before the Committee on Un-American Activities, House of Representatives. Eighty-fifth Congress, second session ... Including index"

.iiiiiiiiHiiviiiiiiiiiiiiiiiw^ 



HARVARD COLLEGE 
LIBRARY 





E 


H 


R 




3 

3 
/ 




GIFT OF THE 

GOVERNMENT 
OF THE UNITED STATES 



^^ 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

(ENTERTAINMENT) 



HEARINGS 



BEFORE THE 



COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 



EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 



JUNE 18 AND 19, 1958 
MAY 8, 1958, AND APRIL 1, 1957 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities 



INCLUDING INDEX 




UNITED STATES 

(JOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 

WASHINGTON : 1058 

HARVARD COLLEGE LIBRARY 

DEPOSITED BY THE 
UNITED STATES GGVERWWENT 

SEP 23 1988 



COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
United States House of Representatives 

FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman 
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New Yorli 

CLYDE DOYLE, California DONALD L. JACKSON, California 

EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio 

WILLIAM M. TUCK, Virginia ROBERT J. McINTOSH, Micbigan 

RiCHAKD Aeens, Staff DireclOT 
II 



CONTENTS 



Page 

Synopsis 2475 

June IS, 1958 : Testimony of — 

Bernard Gersten 2479 

William Lazar (William Lawrence) 2490 

John Lautner 2493 

William Lazar (resumed) 2495 

Paul Mann (Yisrol Paul Mann Libman) 2498 

Afternoon session : 

John Lautner (resumed) 2510 

Earl Jones 2514 

Will Lee (William Lubovsky) 2517 

Charles S. Dubin ( Dobronof sky ) 2523 

Carroll Hollister 2528 

Adelaide Klein Annenberg 2534 

Arthur Lief 2537 

June 19, 1958 : Testimony of — 

James D. Proctor 2543 

Joseph Papirofsky (Papp) 2549 

Benjamin Steinberg 2558 

Paul Villard 2565 

Richard Sasuly 2566 

Clifford Carpenter 2571 

Leon Portnoy 2573 

Afternoon session : 

Horace Grenell 2575 

Irwin Silber 2579 

EXECUTIVE TESTIMONY ^ 

May S, 1958 : Testimony of— 
Afternoon session : 

Louis Solomon 2591 

April 1, 1957 : Testimony of — 

Lee Grant (Manoff) 2595 

Index i 

• Released by the committee and ordered to be printed. 

Ill 



Public Law 601, 79th Congress 

The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter 
753, 2d session, which provides: 

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States 
of America in Congress assembled, * * * 

PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

Rule X 

SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES 
******* 

17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members. 

Rule XI 

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES 
******* 

(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities. 

(A) Un-American activities. 

(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit- 
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, 
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, 
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa- 
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks 
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and 
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary 
remedial legislation. 

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the 
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi- 
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such 
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, 
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance 
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and 
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under 
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person 
designated by any such chairman or member. 

******* 

Rule XII 

LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT BY STANDING COMMITTEES 

Sec. 136. To assist the Congress in appraising the administration of the laws 
and in developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem neces- 
sary, each standing committee of the Senate and the House of Representatives 
shall exercise continuous watchfulness of the execution by the administrative 
agencies concerned of any laws, the subject matter of which is ".\ ithin the jurisdic- 
tion of such committee; and, for that purpose, shall study all pertinent reports 
and data submitted to the Congress by the agencies in the executive branch of 
the Government. 



RULES ADOPTED BY THE 85TH CONGRESS 
House Resolution 5, January 3, 1957 

^ :(: :|c :(: sK 4: >)' 

Rule X 

STANDING COMMITTEES 

1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con- 
gress, 

(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members. 

Rule XI 

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES 

17. Committee on Un-American Activities. 

(a) Un-American activities. 

(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee, 
is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (1) the extent, char- 
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, 
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop- 
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and 
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu- 
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress 
in any necessary remedial legislation. 

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the 
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi- 
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times 
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has 
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance 
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and 
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under 
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person 
designated by any such chairman or member. 

26. To assist the House in appraising the administration (/f the laws and in 
developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem necessary, 
each standing committee of the House shall exercise continuous watchfulness 
of the execution by the administrative agencies concerned of any laws, the subject 
matter of which is within the jurisdiction of such committee; and, for that 
purpose, shall study all pertinent reports and data submitted to the House by 
the agencies in the executive branch of the Government. 

VI 



SYNOPSIS 



Public hearings held in New York on June 18 and 19, 1958, were a 
continuation of a long series the committee has held on Communist 
influence in an important phase of American life. Nearly all the wit- 
nesses called in these hearings were actively engaged in the entertain- 
ing arts — primarily the theater and the fields of radio and television. 

As pointed out in the chairman's opening statement, the witnesses' 
field of employment was important to the committee only as a by- 
product of their present or recent membership in the Communist 
Party and their consequent knowledge of Communist Party opera- 
tions in this country, particularly in entertaimnent media. Had these 
persons lacked information which flowed from their Communist Party 
membership, they would have been of no interest to the committee. 

The hearings made it clear that the entertainment industry is still 
a special target for Communist infiltration. Nineteen witnesses testi- 
fied in them. One witness invoked the first amendment in refusing to 
answer questions about his membership in the Communist Party. 
The other 17 witnesses all invoked the fifth amendment. The only 
cooperative witness was John Lautner, a former official of the Com- 
munist Party who has given valuable testimony to various govern- 
mental agencies since his break with the party in 1950. 

In most cases, the firms which employed the witnesses who appeared 
in these hearings had no knowledge of their subversive backgrounds. 
This does not mean the employers were not concerned about the prob- 
lem of Communist infiltration, nor does it mean that they had made 
no effort to check the background of their employees. It means sim- 
ply that a private business is not equipped to uncover the operations 
of an underground conspiracy. 

A reading of the testimony of the uncooperative witnesses in the 
hearings demonstrates that, in the main, they were more concerned 
with protecting the Communist conspiracy and the identity of its 
members, and also in attacking this committee, than they were in pro- 
viding the Congress with information that would help it enact legis- 
lation vital to the security of the people of this Nation. They injected 
into the hearings statements designed to engender sympathy for them- 
selves as persecuted martyrs, attemped to becloud the real issues, and 
made unfounded statements in their efforts to discredit this committee. 
By indirection, however, they did unwittingly supply the committee 
with valuable information. 

The case of Paul Mann was typical. He falsely accused the com- 
mittee of having "investigated" Shirley Temple when she was only 10 
years of age. The truth, of course, is that this committee has never 
mvestigated Shirley Temple. The facts of the Shirley Temple inci- 
dent are as follows : 

Twenty years ago, an expert witness, in the course of his testimony 

2475 



2476 COMIVIUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

before the Special Committee on Un-American Activities, explained 
how the Commnnist Party uses prominent non-Communists to pro- 
mote Moscow's line, relying on the willingness of many such people (or 
their agents) to sign statements without bothering to read them. As 
an example of what he meant, he pointed out that, on the occasion of 
its first anniversary, a French Commmiist Party newspaper had re- 
cently featured greetings from three of America's best-known male 
movie stars (whose names he gave) ""and even Shirley Temple." 

The witness had prefaced this example of how the Communist Party 
uses non- Communists and anti- Communists to promote its cause with 
these words: "I am not trying to make these persons' names stand out 
in any odious manner whatsoever." A reading of the full testimony 
of the witness in question — a recognized authority on communism — 
makes it clear that he had no intention of implying or hinting that 
Shirley Temple or any of the other persons whose names had been used 
by the French Communist newspaper were Communists, pro-Commu- 
nists, or fellow travelers. 

Yet Paul Mann attempted to use the testimony of this witness to 
give new and wider circulation to the tale that this committee had 
"investigated" Shirley Temple, a fable that has been repeatedly used 
by Communists and their sympathizers in their efforts to discredit 
committees of the Congress investigating communism. 

Mann tried to portray himself as a person who was interested only 
in the preservation of the American theater and free artistic endeavor. 
The committee has been reliably informed, however, that he obtained 
his United States citizenship and, later, a United States passport, by 
falsely denying affiliation with the Communist Party. 

Several witnesses expected to testify in these hearings did not 
appear because they were hospitalized on the day of their scheduled 
appearance or shortly before. One such witness, Louis Solomon, also 
known as Louis Salaman, had been interrogated on May 8, 1958. His 
testimony of that date is released and made a part of this volume. 

In connection with a previous investigation in the entertainment 
field, testimony was taken from Lee Grant, an actress. Her testimony 
is likewise released and made a part of this volume. 

It is evident from a review of the hearing record that Communists 
use the various entertainment media to promote the cause of interna- 
tional communism. Both through fraud and the concealment of 
material facts, they have raised funds for the Communist Party and 
have endeavored to entrap nonsuspecting Americans into believing 
that they, or the organizations which they were promoting, were de- 
signed for the betterment of the arts or of the American way of life. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 
(Entertainment) 



WEDNESDAY, JUNE 18, 1958 

United States House of Representatives, 

Subcommittee of the 
Committee on Un-American Activities, 

NeiD York, N. Y. 

public hearings 

A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities 
met, pursuant to resolution, at 10 a. m., in room 129, Federal Court 
House, Foley Square, New York, N. Y., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder, 
chairman of the subcommittee, presiding. 

Committee members present: Representatives Morgan M. Moulder, 
of Missouri ; William M. Tuck, of Virginia ; and Gordon IT. Scherer, 
of Ohio. 

Staff members present : Richard Arens, staff director, and Donald 
T. Appell, investigator. 

Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order. 

Have the record show that the Honorable William M. Tuck, of Vir- 
ginia, on my left, and the Honorable Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio, on 
my right, and myself, Morgan M. Moulder, presiding, are present at 
the opening of the subcommittee. 

At this point there will be inserted in the record the resolution 
adopted on May 21, 1958, by the Committee on Un-American Activi- 
ties authorizing the hearings. 

Let there also be inserted in the record at this point the order 
appointing the subcommittee. 

(The documents referred to follow :) 

Resolution fob New York Hearings 

The following resolution was unanimously adopted : 

Be, it resohJed, That a hearing by the committee, or a subcommittee thereof, 
be held in New York City beginning on the 17th day of June 1958, or on any 
other date fixed by the chairn^an of the committee, and that the staff be 
authorized to conduct investigations deemed reasonably necessary in prepara- 
tion therefor, relating to the following subjects and having the legislative pur- 
poses indicated : 

1. Tlie promotion of famous name personalities in the work of Communist- 
front organizations as a propaganda activity in aid and support of the Commu- 
nist Party, the legislative purpose being to determine the necessity for, and 
advisability of, amendment to the Internal Security Act of 1950, section 7 (d), 
relating to' the registration statement required to be made by Communist-front 
organizations. 

2. The extent of use of aliases by members of the Communist Party obtaining 
employment in communication facilities under control of the Federal Commu- 

2477 



2478 COMMUNISM EST THE NEW YORK AREA 

nications Commission, for the purpose of considering whether legislation is 
needed requiring registration with the Federal Communications Commission, 
setting forth all aliases used by such persons. 

3. Employment discrimination favorable to members of the Communist Party 
and the diffusion within the United States of subversive Communist propaganda, 
for the purpose of obtaining additional information for use by the committee 
in its consideration of section 16 of H. R. 9352, relating to the proposed amend- 
ment of section 4 of the Communist Control Act of 1954, prescribing a penalty 
for knowingly and willfully becoming or remaining a member of the Commu- 
nist Party with knowledge of the purposes or objectives thereof. 



May 21, 1958. 
To Mr. Richard Arens, Staff Director, House Committee on Un-American 
Activities: 
Pursuant to the provisions of law and the rules of this committee, I hereby 
appoint a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities, consist- 
ing of Representative Morgan M. Moulder, as chairman, and Representatives 
William M. Tuck and Gordon H. Scherer, as associate members, to conduct 
public hearings in New York, N. Y., Tuesday and Wednesday, June 17 and 18, 
1958, at 10 a. m., on subjects under investigation by the committee and take 
such testimony on said days or succeeding days, as it may deem necessary. 
Please make this action a matter of committee record. 
If any member indicates his inability to serve, please notify me- 
Given under my hand this 21st day of May 1958. 

Francis B. Walter, 
Chairman, Committee on Un-American Activities. 

Mr. Mgtjlder. This series of hearings by the Committee on Un- 
American Activities is for the purpose of taking testimony from in- 
dividuals who, according to investigation, possess knowledge neces- 
sary for the consideration of legislation presently pending before 
the committee. The witnesses called maintain themselves economi- 
cally by employment in the entertainment mediums. However, they 
have been subpenaed because they possess knowledge of the manner 
and method by which the Communist Party operates or has oper- 
ated in the United States by infiltration in the entertainment field. 
If the witnesses did not possess such knowledge, neither they nor 
their field of employment would be of interest to this committee. 

We are interested in learning from these witnesses the extent to 
which the Communist Party uses talent, similar to the talent of the 
witnesses under subpena, for the purpose of facilitating the Com- 
munist Party program or assisting the party in formulating or fi- 
nancing its front activities. 

Previous hearings have established that Communist Party mem- 
bers enjoying large incomes from the entertainment field have sub- 
stantially financed the Communist Party. To protect their incomes, 
some of them have severed their formal connection with the Com- 
munist Party. However, this severance has not been the result of 
an ideological break, but one which merely permits them to deny 
party membership and maintain their lucrative employment. In 
their "without portfolio" status, they seem to continue to finance 
the Communist Party through financial contribution or by hiring, 
if they are in a position to do so, members of the Communist Party 
who, m turn, support the party through their finances and their 
propaganda activities on behalf of the party or its front programs. 

This activity even includes the presentation, in dramatic form, of the 
works of Communist authors and composers who, in turn, use their 
royalties to finance the Communist Party and its propaganda activi- 
ties not only in the United States, but in other free countries of the 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2479 

world. These witnesses should be possessed with vast knowledge and 
important information on this subject, and their knowledge is needed 
by the committee. 

No one will disagree with our finding that a Communist-front or- 
ganization cannot f)Ossibly succeed if its membership is restricted to 
known Communists. We have seen how certain Communist-front 
organizations were disbanded overnight when their leaders were 
disclosed before the Subversive Activities Control Board as members 
of the Communist Party. These proceedings before the Subversive 
Activities Control Board resulted from legislation reported by this 
committee which was based on information obtained during hearings 
similar to this one. 

In addition to determining whether amendments are needed to the 
Subversive Activities Control Act of 1950, as amended in 1954, the 
committee is interested in learning to what extent the field of com- 
munications, of which radio and television are such a vital part, en- 
dangers our national security when individuals engaged therein are 
members of the Communist Party. These fields must be free from 
possible subversion during a national emergency. That cannot be 
so if the Federal Government does not know the true identity of those 
witli access to our airwaves. In the consideration of our security, 
should a person employed in the radio or television industry who has 
been a concealed member of the Communist Party be required to reg- 
ister such fact with the Federal Communications Commission? 

Inquiry into other fields of communications, such as telephone and 
telegraph, indicates that such a registration might be desirable. It 
is our hope that this series of hearings will enable us to receive knowl- 
edge necessary to guide our legislative deliberations. 

Mr. Arens is chief counsel and staff director of the committee. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, it is necessary this morning to take out 
of order a witness who was originally scheduled to be heard late 
today. The witness is Mr. Bernard Gersten, who because of press- 
ing commitments wants to leave the community here to be elsewhere 
later today. We planned on scheduling him later today, but pursu- 
ant to the strong urgings of his counsel, we will take him out of order 
if it meets with the pleasure of the chairman. 

Mr. Faulkner. We would appreciate not having any photographs 
taken. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give before this subcommittee of the House Committee on 
Un-American Activities of the United States Congress will be the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Gersten. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF BEKNAED GERSTEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
STANLEY FAULKNER 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself my name, residence, and 
occupation. 

Mr. Gersten. My name is Bernard Gersten. I live at 56 Seventh 
Avenue, New York. I am currently in residence in Connecticut and I 
work as a stage manager. 

Mr. Arens. "Where are you employed, Mr. Gersten? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 



2480 COMMUNISM IX THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Gersten. At the American Shakespeare Festival in Stratford, 
Conn. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing todaj^ in response to a subpena served 
upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities? 

Mr. Gersten. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Gersten, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself for the record? 

Mr. Faulkner. Stanley Faulkner, 9 East 40th Street, New York 
16, N. Y. 

Mr. Arens. How long have you been employed by the American 
Shakespeare Festival, Mr. Gersten? 

Mr. Gersten. One year. 

Mr. Arens. What was your employment immediately prior to your 
present employment ? 

(The witness conferred with his comisel.) 

Mr. Gersten. As I understood the legislative purpose that was 
stated by the committee chairman, the legislation pending before the 
committee has to do with possible registering individuals who work 
in the television and radio industry. I work in neither industry and 
therefore I do not see the relevancy of that question, either to the 
legislation stated, the planned legislation stated, or to anything else 
that the committee chairman indicated. 

Mr. Arens. Perhaps it would help you if we had another pre- 
liminary question. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Gersten. I feel that that question is an invasion of my rights 
of privacy. I do not think that this committee or any committee 
of Congress has the right to ask me questions about either political 
affiliations, religious associations. I believe those questions are out- 
side of the purview of this committee or any committee of Congress. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question; and I point 
out, if you please, sir, to help clarify the pertinency of the question 
that we are not at any time, nor will we at any time during the course 
of the hearings here, interrogate any witness with respect to his be- 
liefs or his associations. That is a fabrication that has been devised 
by the Communist Party and those under Communist discipline to 
undertake to discredit congressional committees seeking to develop 
facts with respect to a conspiracy in the United States which is de- 
signed to overthrow this Government and to further the interests of 
the international Communist operation. 

The sole and exclusive question which is pending before you now, 
Mr. Gersten, is whether or not you are now a Communist, a member 
of the Communist Party. 

I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that he be ordered and di- 
rected to answer the question. 

Mr. Moulder. I wish to say that counsel said that you would not 
be asked questions concerning associations. I am sure that he in- 
tends to amend that by saying no questions or interrogation of you 
will be made concerning your personal, social associations, but most 
certainly you can be asked questions concerning your associations. 

Mr. Arens. I would amend it, if you please, Mr. Chairman, by 
clarifying that we are not probing, never have, do not now, and never 
will, into associations for the sake of associations only, but rather for 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2481 

the sake of getting information respecting people whom this man or 
other witnesses may know who have been active in the Communist 
conspiracy. 

(The witness conferred with his counseh) 

Mr. Gersten. Mr. Chairman, I do not understand tlie amendments 
that are taken because the abridgement of this freedom of associa- 
tion—when the counsel tells me that he is only asking certain ques- 
tions about association, or certain questions about belief, I do not 
understand that. I really do not. My understanding and my very 
firm conviction is that no committee of Congress may inquire as to 
any associations. 

Mr. Moulder. He has not asked you a question about your associa- 
tion. 

Mr. Gersten. He has. He has asked me a question about a po- 
litical association. 

Mr. Arens. Let's confine the question specifically to this question : 
Are you now a Communist ? 

Mr. Gersten. That is the question I am objecting to. 

Mr. Scherer. I ask you, Mr. Chairman, to direct the witness to 
answer the question. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question, 

Mr. Gersten. I must decline to answer that question for the rea- 
sons stated and also because 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Moulder. The committee has conferred and suggested that 
counsel give you further information concerning the purpose of this 
hearing, and the object of the committee in interrogating you and 
soliciting you for information that may aid and assist the committee 
in its legislative program. 

Mr. Faulkner. Are you withdrawing the direction ? 

Mr. Arens. No, sir. 

Mr. Moulder. The question will be reframed and asked again. 

Mr. Gersten. Any way that question is phrased, I would decline 
to answer it. 

Mr. Moulder. Advise and inform the witness. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Gersten, I would like to advise you, and this will 
be advice that will be applicable to many questions which I propose 
to propound to you today. Tlie Committee on Un-American Activi- 
ties is a committee of the ITnited States Congress which has almost 
unanimous support of the Plouse of Representatives consistently in 
its endeavors to develop factual information to recommend legislation 
dealing with the Communist operation in the United States. It is 
frequently and erroneously asserted that this connnittee is probing 
into people's thoughts, political associations, and ideas. That, of 
course, is a device or a facade created by the Communist conspiracy 
so they can hide behind it. 

This committee is now in the process of considering a great number 
of legislative proposals, including the proposals in a bill H, R. 9937, 
which was introduced by the chairman of this committee and has 
probably, I would estimate as of the moment, 2 or 8 dozen separate 
provisions undertaking to cope with this conspiratorial operation. We 
all know, at least the overwhelming majority of the American people 
know, it is not a political party, is not a political activity, but is a con- 
spiratorial operation designed to undermine this Nation, designed to 



2482 COMMUNISM in the new york area 

further the interests of the Soviet empire in its drive for global 
domination. 

In the consideration of that legislation, it is necessary for the com- 
mittee to have facts with which it can weigh and appraise the various 
proposals which are pending. In addition to the actual legislation 
which is pending in formal bills, the committee from time to time is in 
deliberation as to what legislation might be devised. It is also review- 
ing present statutes as to whether or not they are adequate. 

I say in the consideration of this legislation and these proposals and 
the discharge of its legislative functions this committee is constantly 
trying to develop factual information. 

It IS our information that you, sir, are now a member of the Com- 
munist Party. It is our information that you have information 
respecting Communist penetration in the entertainment medium. We 
feel that if you would tell us now the information you have respect- 
ing Communist Party use of actors, entertainers, in the furtherance of 
the Communist front activities in the United States, the use of these 
people as Communists and as Communist fronters in the solicitation 
and development of funds for the conspiratorial operation, that you 
would add immeasurably to the fund of knowledge of this committee 
in its consideration and appraisal of its legislative proposals. 

Now that explanation, I hope, will be borne in mind by you in con- 
sideration of a number of questions. 

I now pose to you, so the record is absolutely clear at this time, the 
principal question again : Are you now, this instant, a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gersten. Nothing that the counsel has said has altered my feel- 
ing from before the counsel spoke. It is an interesting speech and 
people may agree or disagree with him. I do not care to state my point 
of view whether I agree with him or disagree with him, and I chal- 
lenge the jurisdiction of counsel to ask these questions. 

Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques- 
tion, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the 
question. 

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer the question. 

Mr. Moulder. May we further advise you that when you consider 
your response to that direction, you are possibly placing yourself in 
the position of being in contempt of the Congress of the United 
States and you are advised of that, not in the spirit of threatening 
you or to coerce you, but so that you might know of the position in 
which you are placing yourself by refusing to answer. 

Mr. Arens. So the record may be absolutely clear, is it clear in your 
mind, sir, that you have not invoked in your refusal to answer this 
question those provisions of the fifth amendment to the Constitution 
of the United States which give you the privilege of declining to an- 
swer questions which you, in good faith, feel could be used against 
you in a criminal proceeding ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gersten. Sir, I must continue to decline to answer that ques- 
tion and I take the chairman's advice about the possibility of con- 
tempt. I am afraid I cannot accept your statement that it is not used 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2483 

as a means of coercion to apply pressure. I am afraid it is. The rea- 
sons I decline to answer that question are the reasons I have stated, 
and I will further add that a witness may not be compelled to bear 
witness against himself. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel, sir, that if you answered this last 
principal question truthfully as to whether or not you are now, at 
this moment, a member of the Communist Party, you would be sup- 
plying information which might be used against you in a criminal 
proceeding ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gersten. I must decline to answer that question as well for the 
reasons previously stated. 

Mr. Arens. I request that the witness be ordered and directed to 
answer that question in order to test the good faith of the witness now 
in invoking the fifth amendment. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed and ordered to answer the 
question. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question under the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Is Mr. Will Geer engaged in the American Shakespeare 
Festival company ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gersten. I think that coimnittee counsel has this ad in front 
of him, and he probably has a list of all of the actors. I did not have 
an alphabetical. We have an equal billing clause that requires, if I 
mention the name of one member, I must mention the name of all of 
them, and it is a list of 24 actors, and I do not have them memorized 
and Mr. Geer is certainly among them. 

Mr. Arens. To your certain knowledge is Will Geer a member of 
the Communist Party? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gersten. I know Mr. Geer as an actor and as a member of the 
company and I know him no other way, I am afraid. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever applied for a United States passport? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gersten. I must decline to answer that question on the basis 
of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Scherer. I ask you to direct the witness to answer the question. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gersten. Again I must decline to answer that question on the 
basis that a witness may not be compelled to testify against himself. 

Mr. Arens. Did you in 1954 or thereabouts take a trip abroad ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gersten. No. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever taken a trip abroad ? 

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever gone to Czechoslovakia ? 

Mr. Gersten. My answer must be the same, 

Mr. Arens. The same as what ? 



2484 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Gersten. As the previous answer. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend, sir, that if you told this 
committee while you are under oath 

Mr. Gersten. The counsel says honestly apprehend. I honestly ap- 
prehend, completel3\ 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you tell this committee 
under oath whether or not you have taken a trip to Czechoslovakia jou 
are supplying information which ma}^ be used against you in a crimi- 
nal proceeding? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been on the initiating committee of the 
Third World Youth Festival which was held in Berlin in August of 
1951? 

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a delegate to that festival ? 

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you a thermofax repro- 
duction of a publication of the Third World Festival of Youth and 
Students for Peace, which was held in Berlin in 1951 which, among 
other things, lists the initiating committee in the United States for 
this enterprise. 

In that list there appears the name Bernard Gersten, stage man- 
ager. Kindly look at this exhibit as it is disjolayed to you and tell us 
whether or not the information contained in that exhibit with refer- 
ence to yourself is true and correct. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question on the basis previ- 
ously stated. 

(Document marked "Gersten Exhibit No. 1'' and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born ? 

Mr. Gersten. In Newark, N. J., on January 30, 1923. 

Mr. Aeens. Kindly give us a word, sir, respecting your formal 
education. 

Mr. Gersten. High school and 2 years at Rutgers University. 

Mr. Arens. When did you conclude your formal education at Rut- 
gers University ? 

Mr. Gersten. May of 1942. 

Mr. Arens. I take it j^ou did not receive a degree. 

Mr. Gersten. No, I did not. 

Mr. Arens. Give us, sir, just the principal employments you have 
had since you concluded your formal education. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gersten. In tlie statement that the counsel made, that the chair- 
man made, prior to the opening of the hearing, or at the beginning of 
the hearing today, he stated that legislation is currently pending 
before Congress relating to the possible registration, is the word he 
used, I believe, "registration" of so-called Communists who work in 
radio and television. I do not work in radio and television and I do 
not see the relationship what my past employment has to the stated 
pending legislation before the committee. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2485 

Mr. Arens. In addition to the opening statement, I believe you will 
recall there was an elaboration on certain of the factual situations by 
myself with reference to legislative proposals which are pending be- 
fore the connnittee. Now would you kindly tell this conmiittee what 
have been your principal employments since you concluded your 
formal education at Rutgers. 

Mr. Gersten. I worked principally as a stage manager. 

Mr. Arens. What was the tirst principal employment you had as a 
stage manager ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gersten. I must state as before that I do not see the relevancy 
to either the stated purposes of the chairman or of the counsel of 
this committee. I therefore decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Moulder. Yes, the witness is extremely uncooperative. We 
do advise you and order and direct you to answer the question. 

Mr. Gersten. I am sorry I have to be uncooperative, but I do find it 
necessary to be. I think the questions the committee asks are im- 
proper questions. I really do, and I find it difficult to answer Avhat I 
consider to be improper questions. 

Mr. Scherer. Is there any question we could ask you that would 
be a proper question ? 

Mr. Gersten. Are there what ? 

Mr. Scherer. I will pass it up. 

Mr. Arens. Let's go backward for a little while, if you please. 

Mr. Gersten. I decline on the basis of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mittee the principal employments which you have had since you con- 
cluded your formal education at Eutgers you would be supplying 
information which might be used against you in a criminal proceed- 
ing? 

Mr. Gersten. That is a question which I have answered a number 
of times before, and I must answer it the same way again. 

Mr. Scherer. Witness, let me explain to you that your answer under 
that question must be "Yes." All the counsel is asking you is whether 
you are invoking the fifth amendment in good faith. That is all 
counsel is asking you. 

Mr. Gersten. 1 did not imderstand it that way at all. 

Mr. Faulkner. We have had a series of questions on that. 

Mr. Moulder. You can advise your client, but do not advise Mr. 
Scherer. 

Mr. Faulkner. I have been waiting for a half year for a reply from 
Mr. Scherer to my letter. 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Arens is asking you if you are invoking the fifth 
amendment in good faith and if you actually apprehend that an 
answer to that question would lead to criminal prosecution. You do 
not say that it would incriminate 3'ou to say that you are invoking the 
fifth amendment properly and in good faith. How could that possibly 
incriminate you ? 

Mr. Gersten. Everything I do here is essentially in good faith, so 
the question is, so far as I am concerned, a rhetorical question. 

Mr. Scherer. I just thought I would explain it to you. 

28123—58 2 



2486 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

I request, Mr. Cliairnmn, that you direct and order the witness to 
answer the question whether or not he is invoking the fifth amend- 
ment in good faith, and that if he answers tlie question that it might 
incriminate him. 

Mr. Gerstex. I must decline to answer that question, as well, on the 
basis of the fifth amendment. 

jNIr. Arexs. Has there been any principal employment you have had 
since you concluded your formal education at Rutgers concerning 
which you can tell this committee without revealing information that 
might be used against you in a criminal proceeding ( 

Air. Gersten. I could discuss all of the jobs I have had in great 
detail. Do 3' ou want to know what troubles we have had ? ^Vliat do 
you want to know about my employment ? I have done a great number 
of shows. I have done summer stock. I have done the Mike Todd 
birthday party. I would be happy to discuss that w^ith you. 

Mr, Arexs. Would you tell us the principal employments you have 
had since you completed your formal education ? 

Mr. Gerstex. I have already declined to answer that question. 

Mr. Arexs. Are there some principal emplojmients which you have 
had since you completed your formal education that you can reveal 
that would not be used against you in a criminal proceeding? 

Mr. Gerstex. What facts is counsel after and what does it relate to ? 

Mr. Arexs. I would be very glad to tell you in a little more 
detail. You have declined, sir, to answer the question as to the prin- 
cipal employments which you have had since you concluded your 
formal education on the ground that to do so would supply informa- 
tion that would be used against you in a criminal proceeding. I have 
now asked j^ou whether or not there are some employments which 
you have had since you concluded your formal education concerning 
which you could tell this committee without revealing information 
that could be used against you in a criminal proceeding; in other 
words, any non-Communist employment or any emploj^ment. 

Vfould you tell us, are there some employments, principal employ- 
ments, that you have had, which in no way related to Communist 
activities ? 

Mr. ScHERER. Like he said, directing the Mike Todd show. 

Mr. Gerstex. I was the stage manager. I did not direct it. 

Mr. Sciierer. Are there any others like that? That would not 
incriminate you to tell us about the staging of the Mike Todd show. 

Mr. Gerstex. "Wliat do you want to know about them? I really 
don't understand the question. 

Mr. ScHERER. We do not want you to tell us anything in detail. 
You told us that you stage-managed the Mike Todd show. Are there 
any other shows you managed ? 

Mr. Gerstex. To what does such questions relate ? 

Mr. Arexs. You are entitled to an explanation. If you tell us the 
principal emploj^ments which you have had, I then intend to interro- 
gate you with reference to each of the principal employments as to 
any Communist activity in which you may have been engaged as a 
stage manager — undertaking to do the Communist Party bidding in 
your activity. This would be in furtherance of the objective of this 
committee of obtaining factual information respecting Communist 
activities which mi^ht be added to the fund of knowledge this com- 
mittee has in appraising legislation which is pending before it. 



COMIMTJNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2487 

(The witness conferred with his comisel.) 

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer any questions in rehation to 
employment on the basis of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you answered ques- 
tions respecting principal employments you have had since your for- 
mal education at Kutgers you would be supplying information that 
would be used against you in a criminal proceeding ? 

Mr. Gerstek. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully request that the witness be ordered and 
directed to answer that last outstanding question, because unless he 
honestly apprehends that the answers could be used against him in a 
criminal proceeding he is not entitled to invoke the privileges of the 
fifth amendment and is therefore not acting in good faith. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the 
question. 

Mr. Gersten. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been secretary-treasurer of the Emergency 
Committee of the Arts and Professions To Secure Clemency for the 
Rosenbergs ? 

Let me explain the question to you. 

Mr. Gersten. I understand the question. 

Mr. Arens. I will explain it. If you have been secretary-treasurer 
of the Emergency Committee of the Arts and Professions To Secure 
Clemency for the Eosenbergs, that would lead us into an area we would 
like to explore very greatly^ — the extent to which the arts and pro- 
fessions were used by the Communist conspiracy in the Rosenberg case 
for the furtherance of Communist propaganda objectives. 

Mr. Gersten. I have already answered the question. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly look at this thermof ax exhibit. It is captioned : 
"Must the Rosenbergs Die ? " And at the end reads : 

This advertisement was paid for by popular subscription and published by the 
Emergency Committee of the Arts and Professions To Secure Clemency for the 
Rosenbergs, Bernard Gersten, secretary-treasurer. 

If this is a Communist enterprise, then it would appear to be very 
clear from the standpoint of the legislative interest of this committee 
that the Communist Party, the Communist conspiracy in the United 
States, was using people in the arts and in the professions, Communists 
and non-Communists, for Communist objectives. 

Kindly look at that exhibit and tell us whether or not that desig- 
nation of you as secretary-treasurer of this committee is true and 
correct. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gersten. I believe I have already answered the question. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answered the question. 
You have not answered the question. 

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer it on the basis of the fifth amend- 
ment. 

(Document marked "Gersten Exhibit No. 2" and retained in com- 
mittee file.) 

Mr. Arens. Sir, are there people in the entertainment industry who 
to your certain loiowledge are, or in the recent past have been, mem- 
bers of the Communist Party ? 



2488 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gerstex. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Are you presently engaged in any professional organi- 
zation of people in the entertainment industry ? 

Mr. Gerstex. I have already told you I am. I work for the Ameri- 
ican Shakespeare Festival. 

Mr. Arexs. I mean a fraternal group of people in the professions. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel. ) 

Mr. Gerstex. Are you asking me about a trade-union affiliation? 

Mr. Arexs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Gerstex. That has always been a bad question to ask, and 
congressional committees are not supposed to ask it. 

Mr. ScHERER. Senator McClellan's committee has been doing that 
for weeks. 

Mr. Gerstex. I am a member of the Actors' Equity Association. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you held any office or post in Actors' Equity 
Association ? 

Mr. Gerstex. No ; I have not. 

Mr. Arens. Have you participated in any of the deliberations of 
Actors' Equity with reference to the question of issuance of passports 
to Communists? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gerstex. No ; I have not. 

Mr. Arexs. Did you participate in the deliberations of Actors' 
Equity with reference to the question of issuance of, or denial of, 
passport to Paul Robeson ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gerstex. May I have the question repeated, please ? 

Mr. Arexs. Do you want to withdraw your last answer ? 

Perhaps there was a misunderstanding when I asked you whether 
or not you participated in any proceedings of Actors' Equity with 
ref ei'ence to passports to Communists. 

Mr. Faulkxer. Mr. Gersten was inquiring whether you had a stool- 
pigeon in Actors' Equity. 

Mr. Arexs. What do you mean ? 

Mr, Gerstex. I wonder how the views come before a congressional 
committee. 

Mr. Arexs. I have a publication before me entitled "Equity," June 
1958, which is the official organ of this fine organization, Actors' 
Equity Association. In this magazine I see quoted Bernard Gersten 
with reference to the matter of the issuance of a passport to interna- 
tional Communist agent Paul Robeson. Now will you tell us whether 
or not you participated in the deliberations of Actors' Equity with ref- 
erence to the issuance or denial of passports to Communists? 

Mr. Gerstex. It is funny the way you put the question, Counsel. 
He was a member of our union. lie was asked to play a part in a 
Shakespearean role in Stratford, England, where there is another 
place where they did Shakespeare. I am interested that a member 
of our union would be allowed to play in a Shakespearean role when 
he is offered, and that is what I did, and not the way counsel put it. 

(Document marked "Gersten Exhibit No. 3" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2489 

Mr. Arens. Tell us whether or not you were a proponent of the 
issuance of a passport to Paul Robeson. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gersten. Yes, I am afraid that I anticipated the Supreme 
Court's Monday decision. 

Mr. Arens. Then you could anticipate the reason why this commit- 
tee is interested in this area and would like to have an answer to this 
question as to whether or not you participated in the deliberations 
with respect to the issuance of a passport to Paul Robeson and 
whether or not you were a proponent for the issuance of a passport 
to Paul Robeson. 

Mr. Gersten. You say international Communist agent. He is a 
member of the actors' union. We do not have such members in the 
union to the best of my knowledge. 

Mr. Arens. You are in the miion. 

Mr. Gersten. I have answered that question. 

Mr. xVrens. I do not want to quibble with you here. 

Kindly tell us whether or iiot you were a proponent in Actors' 
Equity 'deliberations with respect to the issuance of a passport to 
Paul Robeson. 

Mr. Gersten. As a matter of fact, as I remember the issue, there 
was a resolution before the meeting urging that the counsel of Actors' 
Equity Association support, not propose, support the right of Mr. 
Robeson, a member of the union, to travel in order to perform in 
Stratford, England, and I spoke in favor of that resolution. 

Whether that means in counsel's terms that I am a proponent of the 
issuance of a passport, I would say, "No, I am not." I spoke in favor 
of the resolution. 

Mr. Arens. You spoke in favor of the resolution presented for a 
passport for an international Communist agent, Paul Robeson. 

Mr. Gersten. The words are yours, not mine. 

Mr. Arens. When you stood up and made this address to your col- 
leagues in the Actors' Equity, did you tell them whether or not your 
position was motivated by any affiliation or membership discipline 
under which you were operating at the behest of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Gersten. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make it clear to you, 
I do not know if I can make it clear to anybody else, any actions are 
motivated by my thoughts. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of 
the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party the very 
instant that you were speaking before the Actors' Equity membership 
on behalf of the resolution wliich advocated a passport for Paul 
Robeson ? 

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. I suggest that will conclude the interrogation of this 
witness. 

Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions of the witness ? 

The witness is excused. 

The committee will stand in recess for five minutes. 



2490 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

(Brief recess.) 

Mr. Moulder. The committee will please be in order. 

Call the next witness, please, Mr. Arens. 

Mr. ^GfENs. Mr. William Lawrence, kindly come forward. 

Mr. Needleman. I represent a Mr. Lazar. Possibly you mean 
him. If you are calling Mr. Lazar, I represent him. 

Mr. Arens. William Lazar, then, please come forward. 

Mr. Moulder. It is a rule of the committee that while the witness 
is on the witness stand, taking pictures of the witness is prohibited. 
Up to that time we do not have a rule prohibiting the taking of 
photographs. 

Mr. Needleman. Does my client have to walk into this barrage of 
photographers ? 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Lazar, will you kindly come forward, pursuant to 
the subpena ? 

Mr. Needleman. He is in the courtroom and when the photographers 
sit down, he will come forward. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to take the witness stand. 
Call the witness again. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Lazar, pursuant to the subpena which is outstanding 
which has been served upon you on the order of this committee, will 
you kindly come forward. 

Mr. Lazar. May I ask the photographers as fellow workmen to 
please refrain from taking a picture of me. I respectfully request, 
gentlemen, that you will not take pictures. 

Mr. Moulder. The committee will conduct the hearing in accordance 
with what we believe to be the proper conduct and we are doing so. We 
now, of course, respectfully request the photographers to refrain from 
taking any pictures while the witness is testifying. 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give 
before this subcommittee of the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities of the United States Congress will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Lazar. I do, 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM LAZAK (WILLIAM LAWRENCE), ACCOM- 
PANIED BY COUNSEL, ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Lazar. William Lazar, 30 Greenwich Avenue, spotter by trade. 

Mr. Arens. And you are appearing today, Mr. Lazar, in response to a 
subpena Avhich was served upon you by the House Committee on Un- 
American Activities ? 

Mr. Lazar. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I think that IMr, Lazar may be inadver- 
tently violating the rules of the courtroom by smoking in the room. 

Mr. Lazar, When I removed the ash tray there was a cigarette on it. 

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel, Mr. Lazar? 

Mr. Lazar, That is right, 

Mr, Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself ? 

Mr. Needleman. Isidore G. Needleman, 165 Broadway, New York 6. 

My client has a challenge to the jurisdiction of this committee which 
will take about 1 minute to make. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2491 

Mr. Moulder. Do you wish to make a brief statement ? 

Mr. Lazar. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moulder. Proceed. 

Mr. Lazar. I would like to challenge the jurisdiction of this com- 
mittee, first, because I feel it has no legitimate legislative function and, 
to the best of my knowledge, not a piece of legislation so far has 
emerged as a result of the functioning of the so-called Walters com- 
mittee. 

Mr. Arens. Would you repeat that, please ? 

Mr. Lazar. No legislation to the best of my knowledge has emerged 
as a result of these hearings. 

The function of this committee, sir, is not yet defined and it is rather 
vague. 

I also consider, based on the record of this committee, that in ques- 
tioning witnesses this committee violates my constitutional rights in 
probing my personal beliefs, associations, or affiliations. 

Finally, may I say, Mr. Chairman, that it seems to me that this com- 
mittee is as outmoded and outdated as is the covered wagon, with this 
difference: The covered wagon helped build a good and beautiful 
America. Thank you. 

Mr. Moulder. Please proceed, Mr. Arens. 

Mr. Arens. For the purpose of identification, kindly tell us, Mr. 
Lazar, if you have been known by any name other than the name 
Lazar. 

Mr. Lazar. I shall decline to answer that on the grounds of the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been known by the name of William Law- 
rence ? 

Mr. Lazar. I decline on the grounds of the first and the fifth amend- 
ments. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend, sir, if you told this com- 
mittee truthfully while you are under oath whether or not you have 
been known by the name of William Lawrence you would be supply- 
ing information which could be used against you in a criminal pro- 
ceeding? 

Mr. Lazar. Sir, your concept and my concept as to what I appre- 
hend are entirely two different things, I challenged the rights of this 
committee to probe into my personal affairs. 

Mr. Moulder. Counsel asked you whether or not you believe in good 
faith that your refusal to answer might tend to incrimininate you and 
subject you to a criminal prosecution. That is the question pending. 

Mr. Lazar. Mr. Chairman, I am invoking the first and fifth amend- 
ments in good faith. 

Mr. Scherer. That is the proper answer to that question. 

Mr. Arens. ^Vliere were you born, please, sir? 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully request that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that question. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer that question. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lazar. Mr. Chairman, on advice of counsel I shall state I was 
born in the city of Kishinev, Russia. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us when you came to the United States. 



2492 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

( The witness conferred with his counsel. ) 

Mr. Lazar. 1921. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States ? 

Mr. Lazar. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Is that by naturalization or derivation? 

Mr. Lazar. Naturalization. 

Mr. Arens. When and where were you naturalized ? 

(The witness conferred witli his counsel.) 

Mr. Lazar. I was naturalized in the latter part of 1926 or the early 
part of 1927. 

Mr. Arens. Where, please, sir? 

Mr. Lazar. In the citj^ of Philadelphia. 

Mr. Arens. Under what name were you naturalized ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer tliis question on the grounds of the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. At the time of your naturalization were you a mem- 
ber of the Connnunist Party ? 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Now we should like to invite your attention, Mr. 
Lawrence 

Mr. Lazar. Lazar is the name. 

Mr. Arens. Do you deny your name is also Lawrence ? 

Mr. Lazar. I said Lazar was the name. 

Mr. ScHERER. I think he should answer your question and I ask 
the chairman direct the witness to answer the question. 

Mr. Needleman. That was already gone into. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel knows that his sole and exclusive prerogative 
is to advise his client. 

Mr. Lazar, the question is: Do you deny that your name is also 
Lawrence ? 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Lazar. I have already answered that question previously on 
the grounds of the first and the fifth amendments. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you mean you decline to answer by claiming and 
invoking the first and fifth amendments ? 

Mr. Lazar. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. We have a copy of a clipping from the New York 
Times of March 8, 1958, entitled "Three State Eeds Resign," and I 
am going to read part of it : 

Three officials of the New York State Communist Party have resigned their 
posts— 

I am not reading it all; I am only giving you excerpts. Tlie article 
states that among those who are resigning — these three State Reds — 
is one "William Lawrence, treasurer.'' 

Mr. Lazar, we want you to tell us, after you look at that article, 
whether or not you are now, at tliis moment, a Communist. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lazar. Mr. Chairman, would you permit me to ask counsel 
just how would it serve our Nation if you knew whether I am or am 
not a member of the Prohibition Party ? 

Mr. Arens. Prohibition Party? 

Mr. Lazar. Or any party. 



COMlVrUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2493 

Mr. Arens. We think there is a distinction to be made between 
the Prohibition Party, the Eepiiblican Party, the Democratic Party, 
and the Communist Party. We believe there is abundant evidence 
developed by cono-ressional committees, developed by the Subversive 
Activities Control Board, developed by the Federal Bureau of Investi- 
gation, by numerous ])atriotic org-anizations, such as the American 
Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, and numerous comparable 
organizations, which establishes conclusively that the Communist 
Party is not a political party in any sense of the word, but that the 
Communist operation in the United States uses this facade behind 
which it operates so that it can come before the courts and can come 
before congressional committees and assert the position that they are 
only a political group, a political organization. That is the dis- 
tinction. 

Now, would you kindly answer the outstanding question. 

Mr. ScHERER. The witness said a few minutes ago it was a covered 
wagon that built this Nation. The Communist conspiracy is the cov- 
ered wagon which will destroy this Nation. 

Mr. Arens. Now, would you kindly answer the question. 

Mr. Lazar. Yes; but you still did not tell me how would it benefit 
our country if you knew whether I am or am not a member of the 
Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and 
directed to answer that last outstanding question. 

]\Ir. Lazar. You knoAv, Mr. Chairman, this reminds me of a car- 
toon that appeared in yesterday's New York Post. 

Mr. Moulder. That is not in response to the question. The wit- 
ness is directed to answer the question asked by counsel. 

Mr. Lazar. In other words, all you want is the truth as you see it. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly answer the question. 

Mr. Moulder. You know the truth and the question has been asked 

Mr. Lazar. What is the question again, please? 

Mr. Arens. The question is : Are you now, at this moment, a Com- 
munist ? 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

(Document marked "Lazar Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. I suggest in the presence of tlds witness another witness 
be sworn. Mr. Lautner, would you kindly come forward and be 
sworn ? 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give before this subcommittee of the House Committee on 
Un-American Activities of the United States Congress will be the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Lautner. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN LAUTNER 

Mr. Arens. Will you kindly identify yourself by name, residence, 
and occupation? 

IMr. Lautner. My name is John Lautner, and I live in Youngstown, 
Ohio. I am a Government consultant. 



2494 COMJMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Arens. You have on our record previously given a recitation 
of your career in the Communist Party ; have you not? 

Mr. Lautner. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. I expect later today to interrogate you at some length 
with respect to the use by the Communist conspiracy in the United 
States of persons in the entertainment industry 

Mr. Xeedlemax. May I say the press is violating your admonition. 

Mr. Arens. — for the purpose of promoting communism and the 
Communist conspiracy in the United States. 

For the moment, I should like to ask you whether or not you have 
been at any time in the high echelon of the Communist operation in 
the United States. 

Mr. Lautner. I was a State functionary in the New York State 
organization of the Communist Party. I was also on various national 
commissions of the Communist Party. I was district organizer of 
the Communist Party. If you call that a higli echelon, then it is. 

Mi: Arens. Over what period of time were you in the Communist 
operation in the United States? 

Mr. Lautner. From 1929 up to 1950. 

Mr. Arens. During the course of j^our service in the Communist 
Party did you know as a Communist a person by the name of Bill 
Lawrence, alias Israel Lazar? 

Mr. Lautner. I knew liim as Bill Lawrence in the Communist 
Party. 

Mr. Arens. Do j^ou see in the courtroom now the person known by 
you while you were in the Communist Party as Bill Lawrence? 

Mr. Lautner. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly point that person out to the com- 
mittee at this time ? 

Mr. Lautner. He is sitting at the witness table. 

Mr. Needleman. Am I to understand you are going to permit this? 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, would you kindly tell the committee 
briefly what function this man who is seated in the witness chair whom 
you knew as Bill Lawrence, performed in the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Lautner. When I first became acquainted with Bill Lawrence 
he was a section organizer of the Communist Party in New York. He 
was a section organizer of Section 10, Queens. 

Mr. Moulder. What year was that ? 

Mr, Lautner. This was in the years 1933, 1934, and 1935. I was 
a section organizer, likewise, in a dilTerent section of the party at that 
particular period. We used to go to weekly section organization 
meetings for a number of years together. If my recollection is cor- 
rect, in 1935, somewhere around 1935, Bill Lawrence became the sec- 
tion organizer of the Communist Party in the needle trades; and I 
think he was in that capacity at the time I left New York City. I was 
in West Virginia from 1936, April, up to the end of 1940. I used to 
come in to New York three times a year to national committee 
meetings. 

At that particular time. Bill Lawrence was functioning in the 
capacity of State e^xecutive secretary of tlie Communist Party of 
New York State under the leadership of Gil Green. He functioned 
in that capacity, I think, up to 1945. At tlie emergency convention 
in 1945, there was a leadership change in New York otate and he 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2495 

left that capacity as executive secretary of the New York State 
organization. 

After that he was assigned as the general manager of the Daily 
Worker, in 1946 and parts of 1947. He was released from that posi- 
tion as general manager of the Daily Worker and he became State 
chairman of the Civil Rights Congress in New York. 

I was back in New York in 1945, and we sat in quite a number of 
meetings in the New York State Organizational Commission of 
which I was a member, and on many occasions we discussed the issues 
and problems pertaining to the Civil Rights Congress — the question 
of finances, raising money for Civil Riglits Congress purposes, the 
party support, and involvement in the problems of the Civil Rights 
Congress during that particular period. 

I left tlie party January 17, 1950. After that period Bill Lawrence 
was drawn back into the State leadership again under the leadership 
of George Charney Blake, and he was connected with organizational 
work in the State organization and later on as treasurer when the 
resignation appeared in the New York Times. 

That, in brief, is my association and knowledge of Bill Lawrence 

Mr. Arens. Although I expect to get into this subject matter with 
you at some lengtli later on, I want for the present to have the record 
reflect testimony on this issue: Are there Communists who are not 
technical members of the organization known as the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Lautner. There are Communists. Some are technically mem- 
bers of the party. Most of them are wait-and-see Communists. They 
are Communists. Technically they do not pay dues. They may make 
contributions. They have differences with the present line of the 
party, tactical differences, but nothing in substance, just tactical dif- 
ferences. They think they have a better approach than the official 
line of the Communist Party ; that the official line is a liability today ; 
that the Soviet Union made too many mistakes to be palatable to 
the America people and the American working class; they would 
be much better off if they could shed that later on. Lat^r on they will 
meet again but right now it is a liability ; and therefore the present 
techniques of the party are wrong and there are a lot of Communists 
who have tliis line at the present time. 

Mr. Arens. Are they still in the conspiratorial international appa- 
ratus for the purpose of communizing the world and of overthrowing 
this Government by force and violence ? 

Mr. Lautner. Of course they are. 

Mr. Arens. I would like to suspend with Mr. Lautner's testimony 
at this time and proceed with Mr. Lawrence, and then resume with 
Mr. Lautner. 

Mr. Moulder. You are temporarily excused. You will be recalled 
as a witness, Mr. Lautner. 

TESTIMONY OP WILLIAM LAZAR— Resumed 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Lawrence Excuse me, Mr. Lazar. 

You have just heard the testimony of Mr. Lautner stating in effect 
that up until 1950, while he was in the high echelon in the Communist 
Party, he knew you as a member of the Communist Party and as a 



2496 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

high functionary of the Communist Party. We want to afford you an 
opportunity now, sir, while you are under oath to deny that testimony. 
Do you care to avail yourself of that opportunity ? 

Mr. Lazar. I have too much self-respect to debase myself on testi- 
mony of informers and paid stoolpigeons. 

Mr. SciiERER. Irrespective of the fact — of course I think Mr. Laut- 
ner is a patriotic American and he has rendered a valuable service to 
the United States — but irrespective of the fact that you think he 
might be a stoolpigeon, is he telling the truth ? 
Mr, Lazar. I think he might be. 

Mr. ScHERER. Is he telling the truth about you or is he lying to this 
committee ? 

I assure you if you say he is lying, I am going to ask that the 
committee refer both your testimony and his testimony to the De- 
partment of Justice, so now you have the opportunity, if this man 

you called a stoolpigeon 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer the question on the grounds of the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. ScHERER. I thought you would. 

Mr. Arens. Now, sir, kindly tell us what was youi' last prmcipal 
employment prior to the employment which you presently have? 
(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. How long did this last principal employment which 
you had endure ? 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer that on the gi'ounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. We started with your present employment. What was 
the employment you had prior to this, which we shall call your No. 1 
employment ? 

Mr. Lazar. Counsel, you are getting me slightly confused. You 
are asking in terms of numbers, 1, 25 — frankly, I don't know what 
you are talking about. 

Mr. Arens. You have had employment prior to your present em- 
ployment, is that correct ? 

Mr. Lazar. Do you mean was I working ? 
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Lazar. Off and on, and when I had a chance to work I worked 
and when I got tired I got another job. 

Mr. Arens. Did you work as general manager of the Daily Worker, 
as Mr. Lautner stated? 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Were you cultural director or cultural connnissar of 
the Communist Party ? 
Mr. Lazar. What is that? 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed and ordered to answer the 
question if he knows. 

Mr. Lazar. Mr. Chairman, I am sure you expect an intelligent 
answer. I must comprehend. I must understand the question. I 
am merely asking counsel for clarity. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2497 

Mr. Moulder. Do I understand you to say tliat you do not know 
what cultural director is, or was, in the Coniinunist Party ? 

Mr. Lazar. Yes, I want the counsel to tell me Avhat he is talking 
about. 

Mr. Moulder. The question is, do you know what the cultural di- 
rector was, or is, in the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Lazar. No, I do not know. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have charge of cultural activities for the 
Connnunist Party 'i 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the gromids of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Joseph Klein? 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Joseph Klein swore before this committee in April 
1954 that he knew you as a "political commissar for the International 
Brigade'' in the Spanish Civil War. Was he in error on that state- 
ment ? 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever traveled abroad since you became a citi- 
zen of the United States ? 

Mr. Lazar. Same answer, sir, fii-st and fifth. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever applied for a United States passport? 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

JNIr. Arens. Do you now have information regarding the use to 
which members of the Communis"t conspiracy place passports in 
the operation of the international conspiracy ? 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. We have testimony likewise of a man by the name 
of William C. McCuistion that you, while one of the functionaries 
in a certain operation of the Communist Party, arranged for a pass- 
port for McCuistion to go abroad while he was a functionary in the 
Connnunist Party. Was he in error on that testimony ^ 

Mr. Lazar. Would you permit me for a moment to address the 
Chairman ? 

Mr. Moulder. Certainly. 

Mr. Lazar. I would appreciate it if you would ask the photog- 
raphers to not trouble me because I am forced to sit sideways. I 
know it is a free country. They have a i-ight to take pictures. 

Mr. Moulder. The photographers are instructed and directed not 
to take pictures of this witness while testifying. 

You may be assured that no pictures will be taken Avhile you are 
on the witness stand. 

Mr, Arens. If Mr. McCuistion swore before this committee in 
1939 that you arranged the matter of his passports, was he in error 
on that testimony ? 

(The witness confeiTed with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lazar. Counsel, I do not believe I know who you are talking 
about. 



2498 COMMUNISM in the new york area 

Mr. Arens. Perhaps it would refresh your recollection if I asked 
Mr. Appell to read excerpts of his testimony. 

Mr. Lazar. Do you have a picture of him ? 

Mr. Aeens. No. 

(Document handed to witness.) 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of 
the first and fifth. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us, sir : Have you been active in the development 
of an organization known as the National Council of the Arts, Sci- 
ences, and Professions ? 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Can you help this committee by giving us information 
respecting present Communist activities in the entertaimnent industry 
in the New York area by members presently active in the party? 

Mr. Lazar. Would you please repeat that question ? 

Mr. Arens. Do you have information now, sir, respecting persons 
known by you to be Communists who are in the entertainment 
industry ? 

(The w^itness conferred w^ith his counsel.) 

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that we conclude 
the staff interrogation of this witness. I respectfully suggest now if 
it meets with the Chairman's approval 

Mr. Scherer. I am going to ask that the committee refer the tes- 
timony of this witness to the Department of Justice to determine 
whether or not denaturalization proceedings can be instituted. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. Call your next witness, Mr. 
Arens. 

Mr. Arens. Paul Mann, kindly come forward. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give before this subcommittee of the House Committee on 
Un-American Activities of the United States Government will be the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr Mann. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF PAUL MANN (YISROL PAUL MANN LIBMAN), AC- 
COMPANIED BY COUNSEL, ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Mann. Would you wait just one moment, please? 

My name is Paul Mann. My full legal name is Yisrol Paul Mann 
Libman. 

]\Ir. Arens. Kindly spell your name. 

Mr. Mann. There is a little noise. As soon as you get it quiet I will 
be able to speak. 

My full name is spelled Yisrol, Y-i-s-r-o-1, Paul, P-a-u-1, Mann, 
M-a-n-n, Libman L-i-b-m-a-n. 

Mr. Arens. Your residence and occupation, sir, for the purpose of 
identification ? 

Mr. Mann. I live in New York City. I am an actor, director, and 
teacher by occupation. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2499 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Mann, in response to a 
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un- 
American Activities ? 

Mr. Mann. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Mann. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. Needleman. Isidore G. Needleman, 165 Broadway, New York, 
N. Y. 

This witness, too, has a short 2-minute statement with respect to 
the challenge to the jurisdiction of this committee. 

Mr. Mann. I challenge the jurisdiction of the House Committee 
on Un-American Activities to question me and to conduct this inves- 
tigation of theater people, basing myself on the Supreme Court de- 
cision in the Watkins case. 

The way to build the American theater is to subsidize it — not to 
investigate it. Our country is in need of a national theater, and not 
of censorship and blacklist. 

In commanding me to appear before it today, the House Com- 
mittee on Un-American Activities is ignoring and flagrantly violat- 
ing the Supreme Court decision in the Watkins case, which is in its 
entirety a strong judicial rebuke to this committee. 

I challenge the jurisdiction of this committee to question me upon 
all the grounds set forth in the Watkins decision, and specifically 
because the Supreme Court points out — 

First. That the committee's powers are too vague and undefined. 

It would be difficult to imagine a less explicit authorizing resolution. Who 
can define the meaning of "un-American"? 

Second — 

Investigations conducted solely for the personal aggrandizement of the in- 
vestigators or to "punish" those investigated are undefensible. 

Third. No legitimate and specific legislative purpose is being 
served : 

Protected freedoms should not be placed in danger in the absence of a clear 
determination by the House or the Senate that a particular inquiry is justified 
by a si>ecific legislative need. 

This committee knows that the Congress is forbidden by the first 
amendment of the Constitution to make any laws infringing on the 
American theater. Where the Congress cannot legislate, this com- 
mittee knows well that it is forbidden to investigate — nevertheless, 
you continue to do so. 

This committee's absolute disregard of the first amendment and of 
the Supreme Court's decision is further demonstrated by the fact 
that you had previously compelled me to appear before you in closed 
session ; that you had at that time every opportunity to question me, 
to conduct your "investigation" — ancl nevertheless you force me 
again to appear before you today. Your purpose is plain — again 
blatantly disregarding the law, you wish to publicly punish me, to 
smear me, and by example to attempt to intimidate other theater 
people. 

Brooks Atkinson, in the New York Times, says : "Ignorant heresy 
hunters and bigoted character assassination" are draining "the vital- 
ity out of the American theater." 



2500 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

This committee has investigated nearly everybody — from Shirley 
Temple at the age of 10 to ex-President Trmnan. You boast of hav- 
ing a million names in your files. Only support of, and subservience 
to, this committee is accepted by you as your standard of Americanism. 

This committee, together with its blacklisting allies, A^Yare, Inc., 
Counterattack, and Red Channels, wants to control the casting for 
the American theater. You want your standards to determine who 
shall be permitted to act, direct, sing, dance, and play music in the 
American theater- — even to dictate policy on plays and productions. 

Whoever disagrees with you or does not conform to your way of 
thinking is blacklisted, deprived of his livelihood, smeared and pub- 
licly inquisitioned, or threatened, like Cyrus Eaton, with a subpena. 
All, to a greater or lesser degree, are labeled un-American. "What is 
un-American ?", asks the Supreme Court, Anything that this commit- 
tee didn't like had been the answer for many, many years. But that 
day is now clearly over. The American theater people are sick of this 
committee; Actors' Equity rejects all blacklisting; and now with the 
Supreme Court decision, the many intimidated people will be 
strengthened to stand up and fight you back. 

The theater needs no certificate of Americanism to make it legiti- 
mate — the legitimate theater already exists and will continue to exist 
without this committee. As a member of the American theater I need 
no seal of approval from this committee. 

My Americanism is demonstrated by the fact that for 23 years I 
have worked as a professional actor, director, and teacher in the 
theater and my work has been judged and accepted by the American 
theater community — the audience, the critics, the producers, and my 
fellow artists. I submit myself and my daily work to their standards 
of Americanism and not to the McCarthyite standards of this com- 
mittee. 

Further, my American citizenship had to be earned, and I am proud 
to have passed the judicial tests that made me a citizen of the United 
States. As a former British subject, born in Canada, I had to study 
American history to learn how the Constitution and Bill of Rights 
came into being and to understand the rights that I now have as an 
American. It is because I understand clearly the meaning of these 
historic documents, which define the true American way of life, that 
I now stand in opposition to the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities. 

I refuse to permit the standards and political views of this com- 
mittee (composed of politicians elected for a temporary term) to sup- 
plant the Constitution of the Ignited States and its Bill of Rights, 
and to hack away at the culture of my country. 

For all these reasons I demand that my challenge to the jurisdic- 
tion of this committee based on tlie Su])reme Court decision in the 
Watkins case be recognized — that my subpena be vacated — and that 
T be permitted to return to my legitimate work in the free American 
tlieater. 

Now I would like to hear your answer, sir. 

Mr. Moulder. The Chair wishes to announce that in the event 
of any more demonstrations on the part of any person in the committee 
hearing room in support of or against the committee, or in support of 
or against the witness, such person will be removed from the hearing 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2501 

room. We will not tolerate such demonstrations either way, for or 
against these proceedings. 

The witness has been given, I would say, more than the reasonable 
time allowed in an opportunity to challenge the jurisdiction of this 
committee, but instead of giving legal causes or reasons for challeng- 
ing the jurisdiction of the connnittee, he has been permitted to make a 
very strong rabblerousing connnunistic speech. 

Mr. Mann. I beg your pardon. 

Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order. 

The Chair, Mr. Arens, requests that you advise the witness of the 
purpose and objectives of this hearing, and particuhirly of tlie ques- 
tions you are about to ask him. 

Mr. Arens. Would you permit me to liold that advice until I have 
him qualihed as to his appearance under the subjiena '( 

Mr. SciiERER. I think the printed record will not disclose the at- 
titude of the witness during the time that he made this tirade against 
the connnittee. I would like the record to show he was highly con- 
temptuous of the committee in his manner, in his voice at the time 
he made that statement, reaching the point where he frothed at the 
mouth. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in answer to a subpena that 
was served upon you by the House Un-American Activities Com- 
mittee ? 

Mr. Mann. Do I have the right- 

Mr. Arens. Will you kindly answer the question ? 

Mr. Mann. I wish to answer the question, but Mr. Scherer's char- 
acterization and Mr. Moulder's characterization of the contempt and 
manner of it are their interpretation of it. 

Mr. Scherer. The press saw it and everyone else saw it. You are 
an actor and you did a good job. 

Mr, Mann. I don't need any critical acclaim from you in that field. 
You are incompetent in that field. 

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena 
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities? 

Mr. Mann. I am. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Mann. I am. 

Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself ? 

Mr. Needleman. I think we went over this before. 

Mr. Scherer. I can see your fine handiwork in that statement. 

Mr. Needleman. I had nothing to do with drafting that statement 
and I resent that insinuation. 

Mr. Arens. Do you represent Paul Mann ? 

Mr. Needleman. I do. My name is Isidore G. Needleman. 

Mr. Arens. I propose to explain your purpose before this com- 
mittee and the purpose of the hearings which are presently in process 
here in this court room. 

Mr. Moulder. Preceding that, would you briefly explain the legis- 
lation which this comuiittee has considered and reported and has 
been adopted by the Congress of the United States ? 

Mr. Arens. "I will touch on that right away, if you please, Mr. 
Chairman. 

28123—58 3 



2502 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

The Committee on Un-American Activities has instigated virtually 
all of the security legislation on the Federal books since its inception. 
This legislation includes, among other things, the Internal Security 
Act of 1950, the Communist Control Act of 1954, numerous amend- 
ments to the criminal and espionage code, amendments to the Foreign 
Agents Registration Act. 

It has, in addition, made numerous recommendations for adminis- 
trative action to be taken by the executive departments in undertaking 
to cope with this menace of the Communist operation. It has pend- 
ing before it at the present time a number of legislative proposals 
including H. R. 9937, which was introduced by the chairman of the 
committee for the purpose of plugging loopholes in the present law 
which copes, or attempts to cope, with the Communist operation in 
the United States. 

One of the phases of the work of the Committee on Un-American 
Activities deals with Communists who have penetrated the entertain- 
ment industry and who have used people in the entertainment indus- 
try for the purpose of promoting Communist fronts in the further- 
ance of the foreign policy not of the United States but of the Soviet 
Union, who have collected money from prominent persons in the en- 
tertainment industry to be used to finance Communist operations in 
the United States. 

It is our information, sir, that you are a member of the Com- 
munist Party. It is our information, sir, that you have been or are 
the owner and operator of an actors workshop. 

It is our information that over the course of the last several years, 
as will be revealed to you here in exhibits, you have been a promoter 
of many of the Communist activities in this vicinity and in this area 
and that, on the basis of the extensive experience which you have 
had in the Communist Party and in the promotion of Communist 
activities, all in the furtherance of the godless, atheistic conspiracy 
directed from Moscow, you have information which, if you will tell 
this committee, will be valuable to the committee in assessing a great 
number of legislative proposals which are pending before the com- 
mittee, and, likewise, in assessing the administration, operation, and 
function of existing Federal statutes. 

Now with that explanation, if it meets with the approval of the 
chairman, I should like to ask you, first of all, are you now a member 
of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Mann. I will answer your question. It is a difficult question 
because it had such a strong and interesting preamble to it which con- 
sists, really, of about 20 others, but I imagine you bring them up. I 
answer your specific question in this way : 

The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination 
of every citizen to defend it. 

Mr. Moulder. I will rule in this respect. You were given an op- 
portunity to make a preamble statement yourself in very violent and 
loud terms. The committee lias been tolerant in that respect. We 
will not tolerate any exhibitions or displays in response to the ques- 
tion. 

You can either answer "Yes" or "No", or claim your privileges un- 
der the Constitution without a lengthy tirade. 

Mr. Mann. Then I decline to answer on the grounds of the first 
amendment and furtlier decline to answer under the protection of 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2503 

the fifth amendment and I wish to emphasize that there is no infer- 
ence to be drawn as to whether I am, was, or was not a member of the 
Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. When and wliere ^^'ere you naturalized, please, sir? 

Mr. Mann. In the southern district court in 1945, February 28 is 
the exact date. 

Mr. Arens. Of what year? 

Mr. ^LvNN. Of 1945. 

Mr. Arens. As of the time of your naturalization, were you a mem- 
ber of the Conununist Party ? 

Mr. Mann. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previ- 
ously stated, the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. 'VVliere were you born ? 

Mr. Mann. I was born in Toronto, Canada. 

Mr. Arens. When ? 

Mr. Mann. December 2, 1913. 

Mr. Arens. When did you enter the United States for permanent 
residence ? 

Mr. Mann. May I ask the specific legitimate purpose of that 
question ? 

Mr, Arens. Yes, sir. I will be as specific as possible. Among 
other things, the Committee on Un-American Activities has pending 
before it legislation which would plug certain loopholes in the immi- 
gration and naturalization laws. 

In order to ascertain factual situations which can be applied and 
appraised against the proposals which are pending in the committee, it 
is of keen interest and, indeed, of necessity, that the committee acquire 
information respecting people who are Communists or have been 
Communists who have been processed in the immigration system. 

It is our information that you are a Communist. It is our informa- 
tion that you were probably a Communist at the time you were natu- 
ralized as a citizen of the United States. 

Therefore, it behooves this committee in undertaking to develop 
factual information in this case, to be used in connection ^vith other 
cases of similar content, to ascertain whether or not you were a Com- 
munist as of the time you came into the United State^s. 

To do so, we have to find out when you came into the United States. 
Now, kindly answer the question. 

Mr. Tuck. The record should show that the witness has been in the 
hearing room since 10 o'clock this morning and has heard statements 
made as to the objectives and purposes of this committee. 

Mr. Needleman. The witness may have been in the room and not 
paid any attention to that. 

Mr. Arens. Your sole and exclusive responsibility is to advise your 
client. Your prerogative is not to advise the committee. 

Mr. IVIann. In explanation, I have paid very close attention and 
very respectful attention, as I should to this committee, and I have not 
been able to understand, frankly, some of the questions, and I really 
do not even quite see yet the answer of this, because I asked the specific 
legislative purpose of this and it is my understanding that the director 
here has said that in relationship to other cases — is that in relationship 
to cases of legislation or what? 

Mr. Arens. Cases of Communists who have been violating the 
immigration laws, who have been making false affidavits in attempting 



2504 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

to procure naturalization, who have been lying to the State Depart- 
ment in order to procure passports and the like. 

Now, sir, would you kindly answer the question, "Wlien did you 
enter the United States ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. ScHERER. I have an additional reason for wanting to know 
it, particularly in your case. I am going to see that the Department 
of Justice gets the transcript of this testimony. I am going to make 
a personal request, even if the committee should decide not to, that the 
Department of Justice determine whether or not denaturalization 
proceedings should be commenced in your case because of your activi- 
ties in the Communist Party. 

Mr. Mantv. Is that a legislative function of this committee? 

Mr. ScHERER. I said that is the additional reason of this com- 
mittee member 

Mr. Mann. You are threatening me. 

Mr. ScHERER. You can take it as you like. 

Mr. Mann. I will stand on my privileges of the first and fifth 
amendments. I decline to ansAver the question on the first and ap- 
pearing before this committee, I have a reasonable apprehension that 
the answer may tend to incriminate me and so I avail myself of the 
protection of the fifth. 

Dean Gr is wold of the Harvard Law School stated that one of the 
purposes of the fifth amendment is to protect the innocent and tak- 
ing it bears no inference of guilt. 

Mr. Arens. Will you tell us whether or not you have ever applied 
for a United States passport ? 

Mr. Mann. What is the legislative purpose of that question? 

Mr. Arens. I think it is very clear. The Committee on Un-Amer- 
ican Activities has presently pending before it H. R. 9937 which, 
among other things, would preclude the issuance of passports to 
members of the international Communist conspiracy. 

Mr. Mann. Members of the international Communist conspiracy? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. And for the purpose of developing factual in- 
formation, we would like to know whether you have ever applied for 
a United States passport. 

Kindly answer the question. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Mann. I will take the first and the fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you a photostatic repro- 
duction of an application for a passport issued to you January 20, 
1950, under the name of Yisrol Paul Mann Libman 

Mr. Mann. That is the name I gave you before. 

Mr, Arens. The application states, among otlier things, that you 
want to go to England, France, Italy, Poland, and Israel for the pur- 
pose of studying theater production methods, to find plays for possible 
American production, and the like. 

Kindly look at the photostatic reproduction of this application and, 
if you please, sir, at the signature appearing on the second page. Then 
tell this committee whether or not that signature is your signature. 

(Tlie document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Moulder. Let the record show that the witness and counsel 
are examininjr the document which was handed to them. 



COMMTJNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2505 

Mr. Mann. I decline to answer that qnestion on the ground of the 
first and fifth amendments. 

(Docmnent marked "Mann Exhibit No. l" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Yon will observe the countries to be visited appear as 
follows: England, France, Italy, Poland, Israel. The purpose is: 
To study theater productions; to find plays for possible American 
production. 

With that in mind, I should like to lay before you a thermofaxed 
reproduction of a photograph on page 9 of Czechoslovakian Life of 
August 1950. Under the photograph appears the following language : 
"Delegates to the Fifth International Film Festival held at Karlovy 
Vary." 

Reading from left to right are a number of people, including an 
actor and theater director, Paul Mann, United States, and there is a 
picture at the right that looks very much like your physical appear- 
ance today. 

Kindly look at that picture and tell us whether or not you did go 
to Czechoslovakia and did participate in that film festival as recited 
in the language appearing under that photograph. 

Kindly look at the exhibit and the language and respond to the 
question which is outstanding. 

Mr. Mann. I must decline to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

(Document marked "Mann Exhibit No. 2" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny 
while you are under oath, that notwithstanding that you submitted 
an application to the Department of State to travel abroad and did 
not list Czechoslovakia as one of the countries to be visited, and did 
not list the purpose of participating in the Fifth International Film 
Festival, you did, in the year 1950, go to Czechoslovakia on a United 
States passport as a Comnumist and did participate in the Fifth Inter- 
national Film Festival. 

If that is not true, please deny it while 3'ou are under oath. 

Mr. Mann. The first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. MouiJJER. You claim the privilege of the first and fifth? 

Mr. Mann. Yes. I am accepting your words. I am just declining. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that these exhibits 
be incorporated by reference into the record. 

Mr. Moulder. So ordered. 

Mr. Arens. As of the 10th day of January 1950 — which is the date 
the passport application was sworn to — as of that date, were you a 
member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Mann. I decline to answer that question on my privileges under 
the first amendment and my constitutional privileges under the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been in i-eceipt of a communication from 
the Department of State requesting you to surrender your United 
States passport ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Mann. The fifth amendment on the answer to that question. 

Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Mann, I display to you a photostatic repro- 
duction of a letter dated January 20, 1954, which was received by the 



2506 COMIVIUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Department of State on a letterhead of Yisrol Libman, 36 West 84th 
Street, New York. Interlined between the name "Yisrol" and "Lib- 
man" appear the words "Paul Mann." 

Gentlemen : As requested I am sending you our passports ; numbered 173054 
in the name of Jennie Shaludel Libman, known also as Ann Shepherd Mann (my 
wife) — and mine, 1TG643, in my full name, Yisrol Paul Mann Libman — 

and it is signed, "Yisrol Paul Mann Libman." 

Kindly look at the photostatic reproduction of this letter and tell 
this committee whether or not that bears a true and correct reproduc- 
tion of your signature. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Mann. I will take my privilege under the fifth amendment. 

(Document marked "Mann Exhibit No. 3," and retained in committee 
files.) 

Mr. Arens. I observe that the hour is now 20 minutes after 12. We 
have still a number of questions to ask of this witness, and I appre- 
ciate the fact that we might keep the committee here an inordi- 
nate period of time before we conclude. Therefore, I suggest the 
committee recess at this time, and we will resume with this witness 
after the luncheon period. 

Mr. Needleman. May I be heard ? 

Mr. Moulder. Certainly. 

Mr. Needleman. I have a matter at 2 o'clock and that is the reason 
I ask the indulgence of this committee. 

Mr. Moulder. All right, we will proceed. 

Mr. Arens. I believe we can finish in 15 minutes. 

Are you the owner and operator of the Actors Workshop ? 

Mr. Mann. In my specific challenge to this committee, which was, 
by the way, founded on the Watkins decision and was not a harangue 
as has been indicated, I said that one of the things that happens is 
that you wish to smear people and that you ask questions which have 
no relevance. I would like to know the specific relevance of that 
question. 

Mr. Tuck. We have already been subjected to two, long, contuma- 
cious speeches by this witness and I request that he be directed to 
make his answer responsive to the question. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness has heard the statement made by Gov- 
ernor Tuck and you are so directed and ordered to make a direct 
response to the question. 

Mr. Mann. I decline to answer this question on the grounds of the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. We display to you now, an original advertisement, 
"Paul Mann Actors Workshop. Courses in acting technique; pro- 
fessional actors workshop theatre, 1129 Avenue of the Americas, New 
York 36, N. Y. Day or evening classes. Enrollment limited." 

Kindly look at that advertisement 

Mr. Mann. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of 
first and fifth amendment and if that is not interference in the theater 
and teaching the theater, I do not know what it is. 

(Document marked "JNIann Exhibit No. 4," and retained in com- 
mittee files. ) 

Mr. Arens. Tell this committee whether or not that advertisement 
restates the facts in connection with your activities with this work- 
shop. 



COMMUNISM m THE NEW YORK AREA 2507 

Mr. Moulder. The witness has examined the document. 

Mr. Mann. I refuse to answer on the grounds stated. 

Mr. Arens. Wliere are you employed ? 

Mr. Mann. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Are you connected with the Neighborhood Playhouse ? 

Mr. Mann. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. What is the Neighborhood Playhouse ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Mann. You have the answer to that in the record, as I recall. 
We had a previous hearing. 

Mr. Arens. Would you put it on this record ? What is the Neigh- 
borhood Playhouse? 

Mr. IVIann. I am a little bit apprehensive about what you are 
trying 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. ]Mann. The Neighborhood Playhouse is one of the most dis- 
tinguished names in the history of the American theater. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us a word about it. What is it ? 

Mr. Mann. I think it is a matter of public record in any theater 
book. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly accommodate the committee. 

Mr. Mann. The Neighborhood Playhouse has been in the history 
of the American theater, a great and important theater, and that, I 
think, is sufficient to answer your question as to what is the Neighbor- 
hood Playhouse. 

Mr. Arens. Have you belonged to the Neighborhood Playiiouse? 

You see, it is our information that this is a fine group or has been a 
fine group and we want to know about Communists who have been 
penetrating it. You have been identified witli 

Mr. Mann. The first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Are you connected, or have you been connected, with 
the Voice of Freedom Committee ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Mann. I don't recall. 

Mr. Arens. We should like to displa}^ to you, sir, a thermofaxed 
reproduction of two items from the Communist Daily Worker, witli 
reference to the Voice of Freedom Committee in which the name of 
Paul Mann appears as one of the speakers, in one instance; and as one 
of the actors in another instance. 

Kindly look at those two exhibits as Mr. Appell displays them to 
you and tell us whether or not the information contained in them is 
true and correct. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Mann. First and fifth amendments. 

Would it be correct for me to say — I am not trying to hamper any- 
thing — but there are so many lists of so many organizations, and many 
of these organizations have very honorable purposes, but, nevertheless, 
they are considered by this committee to be subversive, and I am ap- 
prehensive before this committee of involving myself, in view of the 
things you said before about trying to make some kind of master file 
or list — I don't remember exactly what you said. 



2508 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Arens. Just answer this question, if you please, sir. Accord- 
ing to one of the exhibits from the Communist Daily Worker you 
were one of the actors in The Case of the Loaded Mike. Did you get 
paid for that performance or was that a nonpaid production ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Mann. I am compelled to take the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. You are under no compulsion at all to take the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Mann. It is quite plain that one must be apprehensive of many 
things before this committee and I am apprehensive and I am taking 
the first and fifth amendments. 

(Documents marked "Mann Exhibits Nos. 5 and 6," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Have you expressed yourself with reference to this 
committee in the form of any trip that you have taken to Washington 
to protest the committee ? 

Mr. Mann. I would like to ask you, would there be anything wrong 
in an American going to Washington to protest this committee or any 
committee of the United States ? 

Mr. Arens. Not unless it were controlled and dominated by the 
Communist Party. 

Mr. Mann. I am under the dictates of my consicence, and my 
Americanism has been decided by immigration authorities and the 
people in my field and I do not consider you as an authority per se. 

You have your opinions and I have opinions, and I have a right 
to so do. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question and 
not argue with counsel. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly answer this question, sir. Are you identified in 
this exhibit which Mr. Appell will now display to you as one of a 
number of persons whose picture appears in this publication who was 
going in a delegation to Washington to protest the Un-American 
Activities investigations dealing with the Communists in HollyAvood? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Mann. I will take the first and fifth amendments. 

(Document marked "Mann Exhibit No. 7'', and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Did the Communist Party, to your certain knowledge, 
organize and promote this delegation which went to Washington mas- 
querading as patriotic citizens to protest the Un-American Activities 
Committee ? 

Could you answer that question ? 

Mr. Mann. It is a difficult question to answer because you have a 
lot of editorial comment in it so I do not know what the question is. 

Would you simplify the question ? 

Mr. Arens. Did the Communist Party organize the delegation that 
went to Washington to protest the Committee on Un-American Ac- 
tivities during the time of the investigation of the Communists in 
Hollywood ? 

Mr. Mann. I don't know. 

Mr. Arens. Who asked you to go ? 

Mr. Mann. I take the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist at that time ? 

Mr. Mann. First and fifth amendments. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2509 

Mr. Arens. Have you been in Poland in the course of the last few 
years ? 

Mr, Mann. In the course of the last few years ? 

Mr. Arens. Say, since 1950, have you been in Poland ? 

Mr. Mann. What is the legislative purpose of that question? 

Mr, Arens. The use of passports by Communists. It has been ex- 
plained repeatedly. 

Mr. Mann. First and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you now, sir, if you please, 
a photostatic reproduction from the Daily Compass of October 16, 
1950. This article states Paul Mann, actor, director, and teacher of 
acting, and his wife had just returned from England, France, Italy, 
Czechoslovakia, and Poland. 

The article also states that Paul Mann, while in England, was in 
consultation with a man by the name of Sean O'Casey. 

Mr. Mann, What was that last name ? 

Mr. Arens. Sean O'Casey. 

Mr. Mann. Pie is one of the great people of the theater, and the 
correct pronunciation of his name is Shawn O'Casey. 

Mr. Arens. When did you last see him ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Mann. I will take the first and fifth amendments. 

(At this point, Mr. Moulder left the hearing room.) 

Mr. Arens. Did you bring back greetings from Mr. O'Casey with 
respect to the Comnuniists who were in jail at that time ? 

Mr. Mann. I will take the first and fifth amendments. 

(Document marked "Mann Exhibit No. 8," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr, Arens. Mr. Chairman, w^e have other exhibits of similar ac- 
tivities by this witness. However, in view of the time element, I 
respectfully suggest the staff interrogation of this witness be con- 
cluded and I suggest, if it meets with the approval of the committee, 
we recess for hmch. 

(Mr. Moulder returned to the hearing room.) 

Mr. ScHERER. Mr, Mann, when you made your application for a 
passport on January 10, 1950, did you tell the truth in that appli- 
cation ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Mann. Would you please restate the question ? 

Mr. ScHERER. When you made your application for passport to 
the Government of the United States, you swore to it, did you not ? 
You took oath on January 10, 1950, that the statements contained 
therein were true. 

Mr. Mann. I am taking the fifth amendment, 

Mr. ScHERER. Would you tell us whether you swore to it? 

Mr. Mann. I am taking the fifth amendment. 

Mr. ScHERER. The fact is that you lied under oath ? 

Mr. Mann. AVhat you say, sir, is not a fact just because you say it. 
I have taken the fifth amendment on your question. 

Mr. ScHERER. When I say that you lied in this application, am I 
telling the truth ? 

Mr. Mann. I am taking the fifth amendment, Congressman 
Scherer. 

Mr. ScHERER. That is all. 



2510 coMJvruNiSM in the new york area 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused and the hearings will be re- 
cessed until 2 o'clock in this room. 

Those witnesses who were summoned for this morning will return 
here at 2 o'clock. 

(^yiiereupon, at 12 : 40 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene 
at 2 p. m. the same day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION, WEDNESDAY, JUNE 18, 1958 

Mr. Tuck (presiding). The committee will please come to order. 
We will now resume this hearing. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, would you please come forward and 
take the witness stand. 

ISIr. Tuck. The witness was sworn this morning. 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN LAUTNER— Resumed 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, this morning you testified very briefly 
with respect to your own personal background and career in the 
Communist Party. 

During the course of your career in the Communist Party, did 
you have occasion to become acquainted with the structural organiza- 
tion of the Communist Party insofar as it was designed to penetrate 
cultural groups and organizations in the country, particularly people 
in tlie entertainment industry ? 

Mr. Lautner. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us if you please, sir, the structural setup 
of the Communist apparatus for this objective. 

Mr. Tuck. Under the rules of the House of Representatives, pic- 
tures are not permitted to be taken while a witness is testifying. That 
is not necessarily my view of what is appropriate but, nevertheless, 
that is the rule under which we are operating. 

Mr. Lautner. First of all, let me say that I taught in Commmiist 
Party classes the organizational structure of the Communist Party 
on numerous occasions in the years of 1947, 1948, and parts of 1949. 
I testified about that on many occasions. 

However, in this instance to answer your question, there was a 
deviation from the general structure of the party in the New York 
State organization with which I was acquainted as to service and 
which maintained control and discipline in that segment of the party 
that comes under the heading of culture. 

In the New York State organization, there was a suborganization 
known as the Cultural Division of the Communist Party. 

This Cultural Division was not a part of any county organization 
in New York City. It was directly responsible to, and under the lead- 
ership and control of, the New York State apparatus. New York State 
organization of the Communist Party. 

The head of this Cultural Division in 1947 and 1948 and 1949 was 
a person by the name of Dave Golden. The two other full-time 
functionaries in this Cultural Division were Lionel Berman, who was 
the organizational secretary of the Cultural Division, and Dave 
Gordon, who was the educational director of the Cultural Division. 

This Cultural Division was responsible, in reporting abovit its activi- 
ties, directly to the State Organizational Commission and the State 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2511 

board. In the State Organizational Commission, of which I was a 
member for a number of years, Lionel Berman attended these meetings 
and every time problems of such nature came up in which the Cultural 
Division should have taken a part, certain assignments were delegated 
to him to carry out in the Cultural Division. 

Mr. Arens. What was the purpose of the Cultural Division of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Lautner. The purpose of the Cultural Division was a two-fold 
purpose ; lirst, to carry out the general policies of the party in the field 
of culture ; two, to raise finances for the party. 

As far as carrying out the general activities of the party, the Cul- 
tural Division and its members and various sections and groups such 
as performers, musicians, and various other groups in the Cultural 
Division, carried out the general policies of the party to the best of 
their ability and keeping an eye always to develop a security conscious- 
ness in order to make their work more effective in the Cultural 
Division. 

As far as finances are concerned, I will give you an example of just 
exactly what happened. 

In 1949 we had a State board meeting at which we projected the 
New York State organization budget of $650,000 for the coming year. 
This $650,000 was then split up and certain responsibilities to raise 
this money were relegated to Kings County, Queens County, et cetera, 
but the Cultural Division was not a part of this raising of this $650,000. 

A\liatever was raised by the Cultural Division went straight into 
the State oifice and no county organization could benefit by it, which 
was a very substantial amount. So, out of $650,000 in 1949, the 
counties could take off so much percentage from what they raised, and 
what remained went to the State treasury, but no county could claim 
any part of the money of the Cultural Division, and it was one of the 
most lucrative fields for the party to raise money at that particular 
tune. 

Mr. Arens. How did the members of the Communist Party have 
a connection with the Cultural Division ? What was the line of com- 
mand ? 

Mr. Lautner. First of all, certain security measures were applicable 
there. For instance, a party member was recruited by an organiza- 
tion belonging to any county in the City of New York — Kings County 
or Manhattan. They could not get into the Cultural Division. That 
was one of the security measures. 

Being chairman of the Review Commission, we had numerous cases 
on review, complaints by individuals, musicians and artists, who 
joined the Communist Party and they were members in some com- 
munity branch somewhere and they made requests to be transferred 
into the Cultural Division, and these requests were turned back by the 
members of the party in that particular craft where this individual 
was pursuing to enter. 

Only by request from the Cultural Division or its suborganizational 
level or a group or section, only this way could a member of the arts 
or sciences or cultural, could he get into the Cultural Division. That 
was one of the security measures set up by the party. 

Mr. Arens. When this committee investigates communism and 
Communist activities in a labor organization, we are accused, of 
course, of investigating the working people and investigating unions. 



2512 COAOIUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Wlien we trace a "Commie" into a school we are accused of investi- 
gating schools. We are accused of investigating textbooks and 
authors. When we investigate entertainment, we are accused of 
being anticultural. 

Tell us from the background of your experience, how the Com- 
munists in the cultural field serve the cause of the international 
Communist conspiratorial apparatus. 

Mr. Lautner. First of all, members of the Cultural Division are 
members of the Communist Party as such. The only special con- 
sideration that they do receive is one of security, one of concealing 
their identity as party members and the reason for that is a very 
simple one. 

If a party member in any of tlie cultural activities, whether it be 
theater or television or radio or movie or whatever it is, if his identity 
would be known as a party member, his eft'ectiveness to do Com- 
munist work would be practically nil. Therefore, concealing party 
membership adds so much more to the effectiveness of that individual 
in carrying out Communist Party Avork. 

But he is a party member and he must carry out the policies of 
the party. The party policies — tactical policies today — are very 
closely linked with that of the tactical policies of all Communist 
Parties, whether it be in the United States or wherever else. 

All Communist Parties carry out the policies, first of all, dedicated 
to the defense of the Soviet Union and carry out the best interests 
in their respective countries of the Soviet Union and of the Soviet 
Communist doctrine. 

Mr. Arens. Based upon the experience that you had in the Com- 
munist Party, can you give us some instances which occurred during 
your period of service in the party in which people in the entertain- 
ment or cultural field served to promote the Communist Party line? 

Mr. Lautner. Yes. For example, the Hitler-Stalin pact was one. 
There, the party membership was to explain away the deal made 
between Hitler and Stalin in 1939. They blamed Chamberlain and 
they blamed Daladier, but not Stalin, for the treachery against the 
so-called anti -Fascist forces throughout the world when he made his 
pact with Hitler. 

Later on, I recall the opening up of the second front campaign, 
which was a party campaign. All party members including mem- 
bers of tlie Cultural Division carried out that campaign. 

In 1947, for example, when the Cominform was formed and a re- 
port was made establishing the two world camps, all party members 
carried out that campaign. 

In the early 1930's they all carried out the anti-Fascist struggle 
directed from the Communist International at the time. 

In 1948 and 1949, the party as a whole was fighting for civil liber- 
ties and was fighting for interests of the Soviet L^nion against the 
interests of their own country. When one talks about a political 
party, one presupposes that a political party in our country is dedi- 
cated to the improvement and to advancement of our country as a 
whole. That is the platform of a political party. They try to create 
that kind of a platform and sell it to the American people. 

Mr. Arens. Is the Communist Party, on the basis of your extensive 
background and experience, a political party? 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2513 

Mr. Lautner. Not in that sense, no, because they are dedicated first 
of all, to the defense of the Soviet Union at all times, and as recently 
as even the last issue of Political Affairs — and this is 1958, June 

Mr. Arens. Identify Political Aff'airs. 

Mr. Lautner. It is the tlieoretical organ of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. Proceed. 

Mr. Lautner. Here is an article on the peace manifesto and the 12 
party declarations. This manifesto is issued by the National Execu- 
tive Committee of the Communist Party of the United States of Amer- 
ica. Among other things it points out that they wholeheartedly agree 
with tlie 64 Comnnmist Party declarations in Moscow, to which Khru- 
shchev made his report on the great Soviet Socialist revolution; and 
they also welcome and equally wholeheartedly support the 12-party 
declaration which declaration accepts, underlines, and asks all par- 
ties to support the primacy of the Soviet party among all other 
parties, so the Soviet Party is the ruling party. 

There is no equality among the parties, which was one of the issues 
around which a factional struggle developed in this country. As late 
as 1958, this C^ommunist Party over here subscribes to the 12-party 
declaration which accepts the primacy of the Soviet party, the de- 
fense of the Soviet Union and accepts the program laid down at the 
61:-party conference at the 4()th anniversary of the "great October 
Socialist revolution," 

Therefore, in no sense can one say that the Comnumist Party is a 
political party. At best, one can say that tliis party, so-called, is an 
adjunct to the foreign policy of the Soviet foreign commissariat and 
also a part of that world conspiracy which is dedicated to bringing 
about the downfall of free democracies, the Western democracies, and 
the free world. 

Mr. Arens. We have been seeing in the papers over the course of 
some several months about a reduction in the technical membership 
in the Communist Party. 

First of all may I inquire of you, based upon your experience in 
the Communist operation, whether oi' not the menace of communism 
and the Communist program and Comnumist activity in the United 
States bear any relationship whatsoever to the inimber of technical 
members in an entity known as the Communist Party. 

Mr. Lautner. It does not, for this simple reason, because it is 
never the numerical strength that determines the influence and lead- 
ership of a party. 

I will give you examples: In 1945, the Hungarian Communist 
Party had around 3,000 members of whicli over 1,200 came from 
Moscow. By 1947, because of a prevailing situation and world condi- 
tions, that 3,000 membership by 1947 captured the country and that is 
the lesson of all of these so-called democracies behind the Iron Curtain. 

The lesson is in Poland, in East (jermany, in Czechoslovakia, in 
Rumania, and elsewhere in the country. 

Mr. Arens. When did they last have a reregistration for wdiat we 
characterize as technical Communist Party membei-s? 

]Mr. Lautner. To my personal knowledge the last registration we 
had in which I participated was the 1948-49 registration, on the basis 
of which the official figure of registered paity members was 60,000; 
30,000 in New York and 30,000 elsewhere. 



2514 coMMuisriSM in the new york area 

Mr. Arens. Are these Communists now, in every sense, foreign 
agents on American soil ? 

Mr. Lautner. For many reasons, they are, because if any one sin- 
cerely broke, honestly broke, with the Communist Party, they would 
be cooperating with those forces that are fighting the dictatorships, 
that are fighting the Soviet domination in the new democracies. 

They would come out and they would come forward and would help 
our Government in every way to bring about understanding and unity 
in this country in the face of the danger confronting us today. 

Mr. Arens. During the course of your experience in the Communist 
Party, did you acquire information respecting the policies of the party 
which are imposed upon comrades, with respect to hiring or promot- 
ing fellow members within the cultural field ? 

Mr. Lautner. That was a policy not only in the cultural field but 
in every field — in every field in which the Communist Party had any 
influence or any friends to help another comrade to get along and to 
entrench himself, to strengthen the party ; if it is a factory, to build 
a factory unit branch; if it is an office, to build a party numerically 
there. 

In all phases of human relationship in which the party was in- 
volved, it was always to advance the party in order to bring in others 
and build the party with new members. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that that would conclude our 
interrogation of Mr. Lautner at this time. 

Mr. Tuck. Do you have any questions, Mr. Scherer ? 

Mr. Scherer. No, sir. 

Mr. Tuck, Thank you very much, Mr. Lautner. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Earl Jones, kindly come forward. 

Mr. Delany. The witness does not desire to have his picture taken 
at any stage of this proceeding. 

Mr. Tuck. The Chair respectfully requests that no pictures be 
taken at this point. I am informed that the rule is not to allow pic- 
tures to be taken after he is sworn. 

Will you raise your right hand ? In the testimony you are about 
to give, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Jones. So help me God. 

TESTIMONY OF EAEL JONES, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
HUBEET T. DELANY 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and 
occupation. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr, Jones, jVIv name is Earl Jones, I live at 19 Commerce Street, 
and I am an actor. 

Mr. Arens, You are appearing today in response to a subpena which 
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities? 

Mr, Jones. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

]VIr, Jones, Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2515 

Mr. Delany. My name is Hubert T. Delany, 52 Broadway, New 
York City. 

Mr. Arens. "\'Vliere are you emploj^ed ? 

Mr. Jones. At the present time I am not employed. 

Mr. Arens. Where were you hist employed in the acting held'? 

Mr. Jones. I decline to answer on the basis of the hrst and fifth 
amendments afforded me, as it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Arens. Were you in the play, Strange Fruit? 

Mr, Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Were you in the TV presentation, Green Pastures? 

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Were you in the ])lay, The Iceman Cometh? 

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Delany. So that the record may be clear — the witness seems 
to be nervous. May the record show that he is declining to answer 
under the rights ali'orded him under the first amendment and the 
fifth amendment, because he does not want, among other things, to 
be compelled to be a witness against himself. 

Mr. Arens. We understand that. Counselor. 

Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Jones. I will have to decline to answer on the same grounds as 
before, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Paul Robeson ? 

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds 
as before. 

Mr. Arens. We would like to display to you now, a thermofaxed 
reproduction of an article respecting annual citation awards set up 
for Negro leaders. According to this article, Paul Robeson was the 
principal speaker and you were one of the participants at this meet- 
ing which took place here in New York City some few years ago. 

Kindly look at this article and tell this committee whether or not 
you are the Earl Jones referred to in that article as one of the par- 
ticipants in that enterprise. 

(The document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Jones. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

(Document marked "Earl Jones Exhibit No. 1," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. What is "New Playwrights, Inc."? 

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I have here a photostatic reproduction of an article 
from the Communist Daily Worker (August 30, 1950), which will be 
displayed to you in just a moment in which your picture appears un- 
der the caption, "Earl Jones in Howard Fast Play." It states Earl 
Jones has been cast as a Jewish labor organizer in the Howard Fast 
play. The Hammer, which New Playwrights is presenting. 

Kindly look at this exhibit, if you please, and tell this committee 
whether you are accurately described here as the participant in the 
cast of this play by Howard Fast. 

(The document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. While you are looking at that, may I call your atten- 
tion to another article in the Communist Daily Worker (February 



2516 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

1-i, 1951), in wliich your picture appears with respect to your ap- 
pearance in the above production of New Plaj'wriglits, Inc. 

Kindly look at this picture and see if you could refresh your recol- 
lection from it. Then give us such information as I ma}^ hereafter 
elicit from you with reference to this particular organization. 

(The document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Jones. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer this question on the 
same grounds. 

(Documents marked "Earl Jones Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3,'' and re- 
tained in committee files. ) 

Mr. xVrens. Have you, in the course of the last few years, been very 
active in promoting the fight against the "Smith Act persecutions"? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Here is an article about 19 notables who are fighting 
the "Smith Act persecutions" which lists among others yourself. Earl 
Jones, the actor, as a participant in one of these rallies held here in 
this community at the United Mutual Auditorium. 

Kindly look at this photostatic reproduction of this article and 
tell this committee whether or not that refreshes your recollection 
Avitli reference to your participation as an actor in this particular 
enterprise. 

(The document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Jones. I never knew I was a notable, sir, but I must respect- 
fully decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not you were a sponsor in 
this particular enterprise ? 

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same gi'ounds. 

(Document marked "Earl Jones Exhibit No. 4," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell the committee who solicited you to par- 
ticipate and lend your talents in this enterprise on behalf of these 
Communists who had been convicted? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of who solicited you to lend 
your talents in this enterprise ? 

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds 
as before. 

Mr. Arens. I have a clipping from the Sunday Worker (July 17, 
1949) , to which I want to invite your attention, "Broadway Stars Back 
Rights Parley." It states : "A group of Broadway stars, musicians, 
and writers today issued an appeal to their colleagues in cultural fields 
to join with them in supporting the Bill of Rights Conference Satur- 
day and Simday at the Henry Hudson Hotel." Among the signers 
are a number of persons — I would estimate a dozen — characterized as 
Broadway stars who lent their prestige and talent. One is identified 
here as Earl Jones. 

Please look at that article and see if it refreshes your recollection 
of lending your name and your prestige to that particular enterprise. 

(The document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2517 

Mr. JoxES. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer on the same 
grounds. 

(Document marked "Earl Jones Exhibit No. 5," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. I have additional exhibits here with your name listed 
as a participant in front activities on behalf of the Communist Party. 
Have you, over the course of the last several years, knowingly and 
consciously lent your name and your influence and your prestige as 
an actor to Communist causes in the Greater New York area ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I respectful!}' suggest, Mr. Chairman, that would con- 
clude the interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Tuck. The witness is excused. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Arexs. Will Lee, kindly come forward. 

Mr. Tuck. In the testimony you are about to give, do you solemnly 
swear to tell the truth, the wjiole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God? 

Mr. Lee. I do, sir. 

TESTIMONY OF WILL LEE (WILLIAM LUBOVSKY), ACCOMPANIED 
BY COUNSEL, DAVID SCEIBNEE 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

}Jr. Lee. My name is Will Lee. 1 live at 201 East 38th Street, New 
York, and I am an actor, a teacher of acting, and a director. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena 
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities? 

Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. And you are accompanied by counsel ^ 

Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. Scribner. David Scribner, 15 William Street, New York City. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been known by any name other than Will 
Lee ? 

Mr. Lee. As I told you in closed session, my given name is William 
Lubovsky. 

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ? 

Mr. Lee. At the present time, as reported to you in closed session. I 
am now unemployed. 

Mr. Arens. Where Avere you last employed ? 

Mr. Lee. My last area of employment has been with the Amei'ican 
Theater Wing school, a training area for developing actors. 

Mr. Arens. How long were you employed by the American Theater 
Wing, Inc. ? 

Mr. Lee. As I informed you in closed session, I have been employed 
with the American Theater Wing off and on for about 5 years or 
maybe a little longer. 

Mr. Arens. Where is that located ? 

Mr. Lee. It is on West iSth Street. It is in the Bronx, t think it 
is 35 west. I am not sure. 

28123—58 4 



2518 coMMxosriSM m the new york area 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity were you employed there ? 

Mr. Lee. As I mentioned to you, as an instructor in acting. 

Mr. Arens. How long did you instruct in acting at the American 
Theater Wing? 

Mr. Lee. I thought I just said off and on for over 5 years. 

Mr. Arens. What was your employment immediately prior to your 
employment with the American Theater Wing ? 

Mr. Lee. If you want my theatrical history, I will be happy to give 
it to you because this is what I feel you are going for and I would be 
more than willing, which I did yesterday. 

Mr. Arens. Perhaps you could summarize your principal employ- 
ment. 

Mr. Lee. I feel all of my employment has been very principal and 
I would like to give it to you. 

Mr. Arens. Please do, then. 

Mr. Lee. I appeared at a reading of Spring Out of Season at 
Carnegie Hall in November of 1957. I did World of Sholem Alechem 
at the Bucks County Playhouse in June 1956. I played in Heaven 
Can Wait in August of 1955. I played in Born Yesterday in Play- 
house Park in July 1955. 

In October of 1954, I did a 5-week tour of the World of Sholem 
Alechem. In August of 1954, I played Golden Boy at the Playhouse 
in the Park. I presume you heard this. 

Mr. Arens. Yes. Golden Boy was your last performance ? 

Mr. Lee. In October 1954, 1 worked in the film Little Fugitive. In 
1952 I appeared on Broadway in The Shrike. It is about a bird that 
picks your brains out. 

In 1951, I directed A Streetcar Named Desire, to Circle Theater in 
Atlantic City, the first time in the round. 

In 1947 I performed in such films as They Live by Night, Casbah, 
A Song Is Born, Life of Riley, and Letter From an Unknown 
Woman. 

In 1945, 1944, and 1943, and 1942 I was in the United States Army, 
part of the Special Services. I have received 2 citations from the 
United States Army, 1 for a VJ-Day program which I directed at a 
stadium in Manila, and also for a 3-day festival that I organized on 
Leyte. 

Mr. Arens. What was the period of time when you had this festival 
for the Army and directed this play for the Army ? 

Mr. Lee. 1945 in Manila, September of 1945. 

In 1942 I appeared in Lilies of the Valley, a play written by Ben 
Hecht, and also a play written by Paul Vincent Carroll called, The 
Strings, My Lord, Are False. In 1941 I was in Whistling in the 
Dark, Temporary Bride, Babes on Broadway, His Honor, and Ball 
of Fire. 

In 1940 I appeared in Night Music, and "Heavenly," Expressed the 
White-haired Boy. 

In 1939, I was in Family Portrait and Time of Your Life. 

In 1938, I was in Golden Boy, on Broadway, in London, and on tlie 
road. 

In 1937, I was in Boy Meets Girl, Busman's Holiday, and Place 
in the Sun. 

In 1936, 1 was associated with the Federal Theater and Libby news- 
paper and also appeared in Johnny Johnson on Broadway. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2519 

This is the extent of my professional life. 

Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir. Now, kindly tell us, are you now, or 
have you ever been, a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Lee. I have been born in Brooklyn ; and in Brooklyn, in Public 
School 144 that I went to, I was always told that an individual had a 
right to select what he wants to be part of, speak freely, his associa- 
tions, and this was also clearly pointed out to us as inseparable from 
the Bill of Eights. 

I will not cast any shadow over the Bill of Rights; and in raising 
this question, I stand on the right as given to us by James Madison 
and his associates in relation to the first amendment and also the 
privileges of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Let us break the question into two parts. 

Did they also teach you about the Communist conspiracy being 
dedicated to the destruction of the Constitution of the United States 
and to the overthrow of this country by force and violence ? 

Mr. Lee. If you want to have a discussion on this, I would be happy 
to discuss this outside. 

Mr. Arexs. Just tell us that. You told us they taught you at 
Brooklyn, and I was wondering what they taught with respect to the 
Communist Party. 

Mr. Lee. Because of the circumstances of this hearing here, I refer 
you to the principles inherent in the first amendment and, also, the 
privileges of the first. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Lee. I repeat the same statement again. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you gave us a truth- 
ful answer to that question while you are under oath, that you would 
be supplying information that might be used against you in a criminal 
proceeding ? 

Mr. Lee. I will not be part of dragging a shadow across this coun- 
try that separates the rights of an individual to do what has been 
given to hun. 

Mr. Arens. I think your counsel wants to confer with you now. 

Is that the only reason you give in declining to answer ? 

Mr. Lee. Every answer I have given is in full faith of these 
thoughts. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lee. Also, quite sincere and honest, which relates to the first 
and fifth. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been one of the promoters of a group 
known as Actors' Laboratory, Inc., on the west coast ? 

Mr. Lee. The pride and joy of being associated with a theatrical 
organization that contributes tremendously to the theatrical life of 
the west coast was an honor that was given to me. I earned it in 
terms of my theatrical life and not in any other way, and I still hold 
any relationship to this is still in the freedom of creativity of our 
country, the right for theater groups to spring up wherever they have 
a desire to do so, and work and be judged on the creative efforts of 
their work and this is my relationship to my life, to my theater, to my 
tihns, to my TV, and to my teachings. 

I will not put myself in the dictatorial position in any way to deter- 
mine who shall live and who shall not live creatively. If we do that, 
we are having conformity of a severe nature and I will not be any 



2520 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

part of it and hence, in relation to your question, I reserve my rights 
that are given to me. 

Mr. Arexs. You are offended by dictatorial actions ; is that correct? 

Mr. Lee. I refer you to my answer. 

Mr. Arexs. Were you offended by the dictatorial actions of the 
Kremlin a few days ago in murdering the former Hungarian premier, 
Imre Nagy ? 

Mr. Lee. I have been reading the papers about many things. Are 
you asking me to take a stand? I ask you, is that justice? Is that 
right ? 

Mr. Arexs. I just wanted to be sure that the degree to which you 
are taking offense is only a degree of offense with respect to Com- 
munist activities. 

Now, sir, would you tell us whether or not you were one of the 
promoters of the Actors' Laboratory on the West Coast ? 

Mr. Lee. Same answer. 

Mr, Arexs. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com- 
mittee truthfully while you are under oath, whether or not you were 
one of the promoters or organizers of Actors' Laboratory on the West 
Coast, you would be supplying information which might be used 
against you in a criminal proceeding? 

Mr. Lee. I repeat, the same answer. 

Mr. Arexs. I should like to display to you, if you please, sir, a copy 
of a schedule of activities of Actors' Laboratory, Inc., Hollywood, 
Calif., on which your name appears as a member of the board of that 
organization. 

Kindly look at this exhibit and tell this committee whether or not 
the identification of you in that exhibit is true and correct. 

(The document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lee. Same answer. 

(Docmnent marked "Will Lee Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arexs. Do you remember a May Fiesta that was held several 
years ago in the New York area in which you participated for the 
Theater-Radio Grou}), West Side Anti-Fascist Committee? Do you 
recall that? 

Mr. Appell will display to you a copy of an advertisement from the 
Communist Daily Worker in which your name appears as one of 
the participants in that fiesta, and identified as one of the actors in 
Goklen Boy. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lee. Same answer. 

(Document marked "Will Lee Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arexs. Have you, in the course of your career as an actor, lent 
your talents to an enterprise in Hollywood on behalf of the Holly- 
wood Ten, they being the 10 Comnumists who were the subject of 
investigation by the Conmiittee on Un-American Activities? 

Do you recall anything you did on behalf of the Hollywood Ten 
as an actor in the promotion of your creative art? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lee. May I see it, please ? 

Mr. Arexs. Mr. Appell will display to you, sir, a photostatic re- 
l^roduction of an article from the Daily People's World, which states 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2521 

that you. Will Lee, an actor, were a participant of that enterprise 
on behalf of the so-called Hollywood Ten. 

(The document was handed to the witness.) 

Mr. Lee. Whatever I did, I did with due respect to rights entitled 
to me via the Bill of Rights. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question ? 

Mr. Lee. I always looked upon that privilege of a community spirit 
which we are constantly urged to participate in, in all dilFerent ways. 

As regards to your question, sir, I give you the same answer. 

(Document marked "Will I^e Exhibit No. 3," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. xVrens. In this spirit of benevolence and brotherhood, have you 
participated in any session with reference to certain actors who have 
testified before the Committee on Un-American Activities and told 
the committee, while they were under oath, about Communist activities 
and the Communist conspiratorial operation in this country? 

Mr. Lee. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Do you recall a session in 1951 at the Hotel Diplomat 
here in New York where you made a speech berating Larry Parks, 
an actor who testified before the Committee on Un-American Activ- 
ities with reference to the Communist conspiracy in this country? 

Do you recall that session ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. ScHERER. He did not want Larry Parks to have free speech. 

Mr. Lee. Sir, I will make as many speeches as I can, or want to, or 
have a need to. I do not have to account to you when I do or do not 
make these things and I thought that was part of the integral rela- 
tionship we have in our country, in our form of democracy. 

I do not have to account this to you. I thought when I die and go 
before Peter at the gate, my accounting takes place. This is some- 
thing new that is taking place, and happening to me here. 

It is again casting a wide shadow over the Bill of Rights. On the 
basis of this, I say I stand on the same thing as I said before, my 
rights of the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you raised funds, or used your funds, your 
talents, your ability, your creative art, as an actor, to raise funds for 
Communist Party enterprises in the United States ? 

Mr. Lee. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us in the exercise of your free speech what 
you did as an actor on behalf of the 11 Communist traitors who were 
convicted here at Foley Square? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lee. I repeat the same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Do you feel if you told this committee, while you are 
under oath in this public session what you did on behalf of the 11 
C^ommunist traitors who were convicted here in Foley Square, you 
would be supplying information which might be used against you in 
a criminal proceeding? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lee. I have used my rights under the Constitution in good 
faith, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly answer the question. 

Mr. Scherer. I think he has answered it. 

]Mr. Arens. Have you signed any amicus curiae briefs filed in the 
Supreme Court of the L^nited States ? 



2522 COMMUNISM EST THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Lee, I will sign whatever I want to and I do not think I have 
to account to you for it. That is my privilege. That is what makes 
our country so healthy. 

Mr. Arens. Now, will you kindly answer the question ? 

Mr. Lee. I have. On the basis of that, I take my eights and priv- 
ileges under the first amendment and the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. We would like to display to you a copy of an extract 
of a brief filed in the Supreme Court of the United States on behalf 
of John Howard Lawson and Dalton Trumbo, to which a number of 
people in the motion-picture industry and entertainment field have 
affixed their names, including the name of Will Lee. 

Would you kindly look at this exhibit and tell this committee while 
you are under oath who solicited your signature to this petition ? 

(The document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lee. Anything I have done to uphold the rights of other people, 
I have done with full faith of my responsibility as a human being 
and I repeat again the privileges I have in executing this has been 
given to me in the first amendment and also in the fifth. 

(Document marked "Will Lee Exhibit No. 4" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

(At this point, Mr. Moulder entered the hearing iroom. ) 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that this concludes the staff in- 
terrogation of this witness. 

Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Lee, you said you served in the Army of the 
United States? 

Mr. Lee. Yes; 3% years. 

Mr. ScHERER. When was that ? 

Mr. Lee. 1942, Avigust to roughly December of 1945. 

Mr. ScHERER. We were an ally with the Soviet Union at that time, 
were we not ? 

Mr. Lee. I served in the LTnited States. 

Mr. ScHERER. I said we in the United States were an ally with the 
Soviet Union at that time. 

Mr. Lee. That was not on my invitation to join the Army. 

Mr. ScHERER. Will you answer the q^uestion ? ,. 

Mr. Lee. I do not mean to be unknid to what you are asking but 
that is a definition that you are giving. I can't. I said I have served 
with our Army. 

Mr. Scherer. Wlien you served with the Army were you a member 
of the Communist Party at the same time ? 

Mr. Lee. Same answer. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you mean you decline to answer by claiming the 
privilege under the Constitution ? 

Mr. Lee. That is right. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, is Mr. Charles Dubin. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give before this subcommittee of the United States Congress 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but tlie truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. Dubin, I do, sir, 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2523 

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES S. DUBIN (DOBRONOFSKY), ACCOMPANIED 
BY COUNSEL, HUBERT T. DELANY 

Mr, Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. DuBiN. My name is Charles S. Dubin ; I live at 505 "West End 
Avenue, New York City, and I am a television director. 

j\ir. Arens. You are appearing here today, Mr. Dubin, in response 
to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on 
Un-American Activities ? 

Mr. Dubin. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Dubin. Yes, I am. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. Delany. My name is Hubert Delany, 52 Broadway, New York 
City. 

Mr. Arens. "Wliere are you employed, Mr. Dubin ? 

Mr. Dubin. I am employed as director of a quiz show known as 
Twenty-One and I am also one of several directors on a suiximer 
replacement dramatization show called The Investigator. 

Mr. Arens. Is Dubin the name you have used all your life ? 

Mr. Dubin. As I explained to you, Mr. Arens, in some detail at our 
last meeting which was a closed session, from the time I was born 
until 192*9 the name my family had was Dobronofsky. 

In 1929 my father desired to shorten the name for purposes of 
convenience, and that is the name I have used for my entire life. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly spell the name. 

Mr. Dubin. D-o-b-r-o-n-o-f-s-k-y. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Dubin, are you now, or have you ever been, a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Dubin. Mr. Arens 

Mr. Delany. Would you break up that question ? 

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Delany. I do not want to argue with you, but in view of the 
answer that was given at the May 8 [1958] session, it puts us in a very 
embarrassing position. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly answer the question, are you now, or have you 
ever been, a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Delany. May I appeal to the chairman ? 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, your sole and exclusive purpose in appearing 
here is for the purpose of advising your client, and any statements 
that you desire to make to the committee should be made through your 
client, the witness. 

]Mr. Delany. I do not think he can answer it fairly unless it is 
broken up. 

Mr. Moulder. It is the rule of the committee that you speak through 
the witness. 

Mr. Dubin. As I told yon on May 8, Mr. Arens, and I believe you, 
too, Mr. Scherer, I was not then a member of the Communist Party. 
I declined at that point to answer in relation to past membership 
because after much discussion with my counsel, I am told that under 



2524 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

the Constitution I do not have to be a witness against myself and, 
therefore, I decline to answer questions about past associations. 

Mr. Arens. "Were you a member of the Communist Party at any 
time since you received your subpena some several weeks ago to ap- 
year before this committee? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. DuBiN. xVs I replied to you on May 8, Mr. Arens, I respectfully 
decline to answer the question on the grounds tliat I do not wish to be 
a witness against myself. 

Mr. Delany. Except insofar as you have answered. 

Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Communist Paity at any 
time since our executive session on May 8 ? 

Mr. DuBiN. Well, of course not. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party on May 7, 
the day preceding the exe<?utive session ? 

Mr. DuBiN. Again, sir, as I responded to that question on May 8, 
I must respectfully decline to answer. 

Mr. Arexs. Are there persons presently in the entertainment in- 
dustry who, to your certain knowledge, in the recent past have been 
members of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. DuBiN. Would you repeat that question please ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. Are there persons presently in the entertain- 
ment industry who, to your certain knowledge, in the recent past 
have been members of the Connnunist Party ? 

Mr. Delany. May I ask that that question be rephrased. Obviously 
a witness could not truthfully answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. Certainly he could. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you have any knowledge or information concern- 
ing persons in the entertainment industry who are now members of 
the Communist Party ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. DuBiN. I think, in order to protect my rights, I respectfully 
decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. It is the feeling of this committee that you, as a prom- 
inent member in the television and entertainment industry, director, 
and the like, have information which would be of significance to this 
committee in its endeavor to obtain information respecting the oper- 
ation of the Communist Party in the entertainment industiy. 

If this committee should cause to be instituted proceedings which 
would grant you immunity from criminal prosecution, based upon 
any testimony you might give before this committee, and if those pro- 
ceedings were brought to a consummation so that you would be granted 
immunity from crnninal prosecution based upon any testimony you 
would give before this committee, would you testify fully and freely 
respecting any and all information which you possess with regard 
to the Communist Party, Communists, Communist activities, during 
the course of your life ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. DuBiN. Mr. Arens, you put a very large and sweeping and very 
profound question to me. 

Mr, Arens. And you have had time to ponder that question since 
May 8 because I posed substantially the same question to you on 
May 8. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2525 

Mr. DuBiN. Substantially the same, but in some ways difl'erent. 
For example, at this point you used the phrase, "during- all my life." 

Mr. Arens. We will say during your adult life. Perhaps it would 
help you in your consideration before you respond to this question, if 
you would tell us whether or not you have considered the question 
which I proposed to you on May 8 of causing inmiunity proceedings 
to be instituted if you would testify fully and freely of your knowl- 
edge of the Communist operation. 

Mr. DuBiN. I have not had enough of an opportunity to consider 
all the many things that have to be considered in relation to such a 
question. 1 cannot answer you at this time. I would have to take 
deep and serious legal counsel and advice and it seems to me the ques- 
tion is couched in a hypothetical manner and, therefore, I cannot 
answer it at this time. 

Mr. Arens. Have you resigned from the Communist Party? 

Mr. DuBiN. The same answer as before. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been expelled from the Communist Party ? 

Mr. DiTBiN. I decline, respectfully, to answer on the same grounds 
as before. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now against the Communist Party ? 

Mr. DuBiN. Whatever my differences of opinion may be with any 
particular organization, I must at this point say, Mr. Arens, gentle- 
men of the committee, tliat I am entitled to those opinions as per- 
sonal beliefs. 

I am willing to discuss tliem with friends, but I liardly think that 
this is the place or the time to discuss such opinions and, therefore, 
on that ground and on the ground that I do not Avish to be a witness 
against myself as the privilege accorded to me in the Constitution, 
I respectfully decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. Are 3'ou or have you ever been a member of the Stage 
for Action ? 

Mr. Dfbin. I am not a member of Stage for Action. I decline, as 
1 have said before, to talk about my past associations because the 
Constitution says to me I do not have to be a witness against myself. 

Mr. Arens. Did you produce Dream Job, for the Stage for Action ? 

Mr. DuBiN. Dream Job ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Dubin. I do not remember that at all, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Have you produced Omnibus? 

Mr. Dubin. No, sir ; I did not produce Omnibus. 

Mr. Arens. What was your connection with Omnibus ? 

Mr. Dubin. I was hired as a director for many other segments, seg- 
ments being portions of programs. 

Mr. Arens. During the course of your directorship of these seg- 
ments for Omnibus, were you a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr, Dubin. I decline respectfully to answer that question on the 
same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time did you direct segments of 
Omnibus ? 

Mr. Dubin. The first one, which was with Esther Williams, was in 
October of 1955. The last one was just a few weeks ago. It was The 
Passion According to St. Matthew. 



2526 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Arens. With respect to the first one that you talked about, at 
the time of its production were you a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. DuBiN. I think I have already answered that question when 
you asked me prior, but I will repeat my answer, however, Mr. Arens. 
I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a member, or have you been a member, of the 
National Council of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions ? 

Mr. DuBiN. Would you repeat that question, please ? 

Mr. Arens. Are you, or have you been, a member of the National 
Council of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions ? 

Mr. DuBiN. I am not a member. I refuse to answer the question 
about my past associations because I do not wish to be a witness 
against myself. 

Mr. Arens. Were you stage manager for the National Council of 
the Arts, Sciences, and Professions' Carnegie Hall presentation in 
1949? 

Mr. DuBiN. I am sorry, would you please repeat that question ? 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell will exhibit to you the announcement of an 
enterprise under the auspices of the National Council of the Arts, 
Sciences, and Professions, listing your name as the stage manager. 

(The document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. DuBiN. I respectfully decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. You can definitely help this Committee on Un- 
American Activities if you can tell us whether or not you were paid 
or whether or not you contributed your services, because this is an 
organization that has been cited as an entity controlled by the Com- 
munist conspiracy. Could you help us? Could you tell us whether 
or not your participation in that enterprise was one for which you 
received remuneration ? 

Mr. DuBiN. Mr. Arens, the best way I can help this committee is 
to go back to my work of good quality material for the American 
public. I have received some criticism of a negative sort, and that is 
the best way I , as a citizen, can function. 

I respectfully decline to answer the question with respect to this 
particular instance. 

Mr. Arens. Why ? 

Mr. DuBiN. Because I do not wish to be a witness against myself. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you told this committee 
whether or not you received compensation from the National Council 
of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions, j^ou would be supplying in- 
formation that might be used against you in a criminal proceeding ? 

Mr. DuBiN. I do not wish to give you such an understandings. I 
simply say I do not wish to be a witness against myself. 

Mr. Arens. I request that the witness be ordered and directed to 
answer the last outstanding question. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the 
question. 

(Tlie witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. DuuiN. Would you please repeat the question, Mr. Arens? 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you told this committee 
whether or not you received remuneration for your participation in 
this particular enterprise under the auspices of the National Council 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2527 

of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions, you would be supplying in- 
formation which might be used against you in a criminal proceeding'^ 

Mr. DuBiN. Gentlemen, I respectfully decline to answer that ques- 
tion on the grounds that I do not wish to be a witness against myself. 

(Document marked "Dubin Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Have you been an instructor in dramatics or in the field 
of entertainment in the course of the last several years ? 

Mr. Dubin. I respectfully decline to answer that on the same 
grounds, sir. 

Mr. Arens. I have a copy of an article from the Daily Worker in 
which you are characterized, Charles Dubin, as one of the instructors 
of the School of the Stage for Action, Inc. Does that ring a bell? 
Does that prompt your recollection witli respect to your participation 
in that enterprise ? 

Mr. Dubin. I am going to take advantage of my constitutional 
privilege again and respectfully decline to answer, sir. 

(Document marked "Dubin Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Did you sign a nominating petition for George Blake 
Charneyinl953? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell will display to you a reproduction of a 
nominating petition for George Blake Charney, who was at one time 
head of the Communist Party of the State of New York. On this 
petition as one of the signers is the signature of Charles S. Dubin, 410 
Central Park West. Is that your signature ? 

Mr. Dubin. I respectfully decline to answ^er your first question 
which did not have anything to do with my signature. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell the committee w^hether or not 
the document which was just displayed to you bears a true and ac- 
curate reproduction of your signature ? 

Mr. Dubin. I respectfully decline to answ^er on the same grounds. 

(Document marked "Dubin Exhibit No. 3", and retained in com- 
mittee files. ) 

Mr. Arens. What was your address on September 20, 1953? Do 
you recall where you were living then ? 

Mr. Dubin. I respectfully decline to answer the question, sir, on the 
same grounds. 

Mr, ScHERER. I think the witness should be directed to answer 
the question as to where he was living in 1953. I cannot possibly see 
how that would tend to incriminate him. 

Mr. Moulder. Yes, the witness is directed to answer the question. 
(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Dubin. May I please, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Scherer, Mr. Arens, 
understand the question which I am directed to answer ? Wliere was 
I living in 1953 ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir, or make it the fall of 1953. 

Mr. Dubin. May I have another look at that petition please ? 

The reason I would like to decline to answer that question, Mr. 
Scherer, sir, since you raised the matter of directions, it seems to 
me pinpointing such a date is perhaps another way of getting me to 
answer the first question which I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Did you ever live at 410 Central Park West ? 



2528 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

i\Ir. DuBiN. Yes, sir ; I did live at 410 Central Park, West. 

JNIr. Arens. Did you live there at any time during the year 1953? 

Mr. DuBiN. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds that 
I do not wish to be a witness against myself. 

Mr. Arens. When did you live at 410 Central Park West? 

Mr. DuBiN. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest we conclude the interrogation of 
this witness. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Carroll Hollister. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give before this subcommittee of the United States Congress 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. Hollister. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF CAREOLL HOLLISTER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

HARRY SACHER 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc- 
cupation. 

Mr. Hollister. My name is Carroll Hollister, 344 West 72d Street ; 
occupation, musician. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr, Hollister, in response 
to a subpena served upon you by the House Committee on Un-Ameri- 
can Activities? 

Mr. Hollister. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Hollister. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself for the record. 

Mr. Sacher. Harry Sacher, 342 Madison Avenue, New York, N. Y. 

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ? 

Mr. Hollister. I am self-employed. 

Mr. Arens. Where, please, sir ? 

Mr. Hollister. At my address which I just gave. 

Mr. Arens. What do you do there ? 

Mr. Hollister. I teach singing and coach singers — music in 
general. 

Mr. Arens. Have you also been on the faculty of the Metropolitan 
Music School, Inc. ? 

Mr. Hollister. I would find it difficult to understand why it is 
necessary for this committee to ask this question in order to further 
the aims of legislation which is required. I have no shame about 
any employment which I have ever had in my life or have at the 
present time and, as a music teacher, I would consider that I had the 
riglits to seek employment in music at any institution of recognized 
musical standing. 

Mr. Arens. If you are not ashamed of it, then kindly tell us 
whether or not you have been employed as an instructor at the 
Meti-opolitan Music School. 

Mr. Hollister. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Communist Party? 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2529 

Mr. HoLLiSTER. I feel tliat I must respectfully refuse to answer 
this question as an invasion of my riglits as a citizen of association 
or membership in or^-anizations in respect to the first amendment; and 
in respect to the fifth amendment, my right to be called upon to 
testify against myself. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Hollister, in April 1956 a man by the name of 
Ramez Idriss took an oath before this committee, laid his liberty 
on the line, said, "While I was a member of the Communist Party" — 
I am only paraphrasing what he said — '"While I was a member of 
the Comnumist Party, 1 knew as a Communist in leadership capacity, 
a i)erson by the name of Carroll Hollister." 

We want to give you an opportunity now, sir, to deny that state- 
ment, that characterization, that identihcation while you are under 
oath. Was Mr. Idriss in error when he identified you as a person 
known to him certainly, to be a leader of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Hollister. I would decline to answer that question on the 
same grounds which I asserted before — my rights under the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Idriss? 

Mr. Hollister. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. At about the same time Mr. Idriss appeared before this 
committee, Don Christlieb also appeared and lie likewise took an 
oath. If he lied before this committee he will be subjected to criminal 
prosecution for perjury. 

He said while he was a member of the Communist Party he knew 
you, Carroll Hollister, as a member of the Communist Party. Kindly 
tell us, was this man, Christlieb, telling the truth while he was under 
oath before this committee ? 

Mr. Sacher. jSIr. Chairman, I think Mr. Arens is arrogating powers 
to himself. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that counsel be admonished that 
his sole and exclusive rights are to advise his client. 

Mr. Moulder. Counsel is directed to speak through the witness. 

Now, your question is whether or not 

Mr. Arens. Whether Christlieb told the truth when he took an oath 
before this committee and identified the instant witness, Carroll 
Hollister. 

Mr. Moulder. It is the rule of the committee whenever a person is 
accused by a witness of being a member of the Communist Party, the 
person accused is given an opportunity to affirm or deny the accusa- 
tion made by that witness. 

Counsel has read you a portion of that testimony. Now, do 3^011 
wish to deny or affirm ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hollister. Will you repeat the specific question ? I think there 
were two forms in which it was given to me. 

Mr. Arens. Was Christlieb telling the truth when he took an oath 
before this committee and identified you as a person known by him 
to be a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Hollisti':r. I think this question is similar to the one asked of 
me before, and I would decline to answer for the same reasons, because 
of my rights as a citizen under the first amendment and fifth amend- 
ment. 



2530 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Christlieb ? 

Mr. HoLLiSTER. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been on the board of the Musicians Congress 
Committee ? 

Mr. HoLLiSTER. Can you be more specific ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, perhaps I could help you by displaying to you a 
letterhead of the Musicians Congress Committee, Hollywood, Calif., 
on which the names of a number of persons appear on the general 
board, including the name Carroll Hollister. 

Kindly look at this exhibit and tell this committee wdiether you are 
properly characterized as a member of that board in that exhibit. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hollister, Sir, I do not see any reason why the committee 
should ask me or I should answer a question which has anything to do 
with joining a musical organization for the purpose of pursuing my 
profession in music. 

Mr. Arens. Let us change the question. Was your affiliation with 
that organization solely and exclusively for the purpose of music? 

Mr. Hollister. I have not admitted anything yet. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us first of all whether or not you are honestly 
and accurately characterized there as a member of the board of that 
group. 

Mr. Hollister. I think I would decline to answer this question on 
the same grounds, sir, as I have given before. 

(Document marked "Hollister Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Have you been one of the promoters of the American 
Continental Congress for Peace? 

\ Mr. Hollister. I decline to answer this question on the same 
grounds as an invasion of my rights as a citizen under the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. You would have no shame in undertaking to promote 
peace. 

Mr. Hollister. I certainly would not have. 

Mr. Arens. Then why don't you tell us whether or not you are 
honestly and truthfully identified as one of the sponsors of the Ameri- 
can Continental Congress for Peace, as I exhibit to you a leaflet of that 
organization. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hollister. In asking this question, I think that you attempt to 
actually besmirch the activities which are legal and correct activity 
for citizens of the United States even to the point of making it im- 
possible for me to participate in a movement which many citizens 
participate in, as you said yourself, to further peace ; and I feel that 
this is a question that you have no right to ask me in connection with 
your inquiry. 

(Document marked "Hollister Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Tell us whether or not, to your certain knowledge, this 
American Continental Congress for Peace is a ruse and a fraud and an 
enterprise promoted by the Communist conspiracy in this Nation. 

Mr. Hollister. I think that is a very loaded question, sir, and I 
refuse to answer it. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2531 

Mr. Arens. Why? 

Mr. HoLLisTER. On the grounds that I have stated. 

Mr. Arens. On what grounds ? 

Mr. HoLLiSTER. On the grounds of my right as an American citi- 
zen to free association and free speecli and the right of participa- 
tion in any organization which has the aims that are correct under 
our form of Government. 

Mr. Arens. Is that the sole and exclusive ground upon which you 
decline to answer? 

Mr. HoLLisTER. Also, on the grounds I refuse to be a witness 
against myself. 

Mr. Moulder. In other words, you are claiming your privileges 
under the first and fifth amendments ? 

Mr. HoLLisTER. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. I have a photostatic reproduction of an article from 
the Communist Daily Worker of March 21, 1952, stating, "39 More 
Notables Urge Negotiations in Germany," were signers of an open 
letter to former President Truman, which action was sponsored by the 
American Peace Crusade. 

I see among those notables who are lending their prestige and dig- 
nity and position in the entertainment industry to the enterprise, a 
person named Carroll Hollister. 

Kindly look at that exhibit and tell this committee while you are 
under oath if that is a true and accurate identification of your affilia- 
tion with that organization. 

Mr. Hollister. I decline to answer that question on tlie same 
grounds as before. 

(Document marked "Hollister Exhibit No. 3," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Are you a concert pianist in addition to your instruct- 
ing work? 

Mr. Hollister. I don't know exactly what you mean by concert 
pianist. I play the piano, yes, sir, in concerts. 

Mr. Scherer. Is that not a concert pianist ? 

Mr. Hollister. No, sir. I play the piano not as a soloist. Gen- 
erally, the term applies to a soloist, although I have played solos at 
times. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever lived in Westport, Conn, ? 

Mr. Hollister. I think that I will decline to answer that question 
on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the, witness 
be ordered and directed to answer the question as to whether or not 
he ever lived near Westport, Conn. It is easy for a person to live 
in Westport, Conn., without being a member of the Communist 
Party. 

INIr. Hollister. On advice of my lawyer, I refuse to answer. 

Mr. jSIoulder. Are you refusing to answer the questions claiming 
the privileges under the provisions of the first and fifth amend- 
ments ? 

Mr. Hollister. Yes, I would claim those two. 

Mr. Arens. May I display to you a photostatic copy of a letter 
from the Conference on Peaceful Alternatives to the Atlantic Pact 
to which is attached a copy of its open letter to Members of Congress 



2532 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

signed by persons from various States, including one Carroll Hol- 
lister, concert pianist, of Westport, Conn. 

Kindly look at this document and see if it refreshes your recollec- 
tion with reference to the lending by you of your name and prestige 
as a concert pianist. 

Mr. ScHERER. He said he was not a concert pianist. 

Mr. HoLLiSTER. I think the formulation is incorrect. I decline to 
answer this question on the same grounds based on the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Is this characterization of this document of you as a 
concert pianist erroneous? 

Mr, HoLLisTER. I don't know what the characterization means in 
this document. 

Mr. Arens. Did you sign the open letter initiated by the Confer- 
ence on Peaceful Alternatives to the Atlantic Pact? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hollister. As I said before, I see nothing to be ashamed of or 
nothing illegal in activities on behalf of peace. I have participated 
in such activities and I shall continue. I think it is important that 
we avoid war and avoid it for all people in the world. 

Mr. Scherer. Is not that petition directed to the Congress ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Scherer. Then we have a right as Members of Congress to 
know, also, whether or not those petitions come from the citizens who 
belong to bona fide organizations or whether they are inspired by the 
Communist apparatus. That is what we have a right to know to 
properly evaluate it. 

Mr. Hollister. I am not answering a question as to who signed. 
I am saying I have participated in organizations working for peace — 
peace is on behalf of all of you, even Members of Congress. 

Mr, Moulder, Then, as I understand your response to the question, 
you did sign the petition. 

Mr. Hollister. No, sir, I said I have a right to act on behalf of 
peace; but in regard to this particular question, in order to defend 
my rights under the Constitution, I will refuse to answer that particu- 
lar question, 

(Document marked "Hollister Exhibit No. 4'' and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr, Scherer. I said you certainly have a right to act on behalf of 
peace. I wish more people did so, but we Members of Congress have 
a right to know, when petitions come to us, whether they are inspired 
by the Communist apparatus. We liave a right to know that. 

Mr. Hollister. I don't see that it is necessary to say who inspired, 
or what inspires, an action on behalf of peace, 

Mr, Scherer. If we find out it comes from the Communist appa- 
ratus, we know it is fraudulent. 

Mr. Hollister, Peace is a good goal regardless of who or where it 
is inspired, 

Mr, Arens, Would it be a good goal in Spain ? 

Mr, Hollister, It would be a good goal anywhere, 

Mr. Arens. Was it a good goal in Spain during the civil war? 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2533 

Mr. HoLLiSTER. I say the fight for peace is important to any person 
living on any part of this globe. 

Mr. Aeens. Did you undertake to promote peace in the civil war 
in Spain, or did you take sides and want to promote one side ? 

I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that counsel be advised that 
his exclusive right is to advise the witness of his constitutional rights. 
1 heard him tell the witness what to say. 

Mr. Sacher. I have a constitutional right not to be eavesdropped 
on. 

Mr. HoLLiSTER. I am only asking his advice in guiding my answers. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly look at this letterhead of the Musicians' Com- 
mittee To Aid Spanish Democracy, a document which was circulated 
aromid in these parts during the time of the war, not peace, in Spain. 
I see here a number of sponsors to aid the Communists in their war in 
Spain, including one Carroll Hollister. 

Kindly look at that document and tell this committee, wliile you 
are under oath, whether or not you were part and parcel of that enter- 
prise to promote the war in Spain. 

Mr. ScHERER. No, that is peace. 

Mr. Sacher. That is not the question, Mr. Congressman. 

Mr. Hollister. I think the question is formulated in such a way 
that I will have to take as an answer my rights as a citizen under the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Is there any way I could formulate the question that 
would elicit a full and complete answer ? 

Mr. Hollister. I don't know, I am sure. 

Mr. Arens. Look at this and tell me in any way, shape, or form, 
whether you were connected with this Musicians' Committee To Aid 
Spanish Democracy. 

Mr. Hollister. I think the question is in violation of my rights un- 
der the first and fifth amendments and I refuse to answer under the 
gromids previously stated. 

(Document marked "Hollister Exhibit No. 5" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Moulder. We will take a 5-minute recess. 

(Brief recess.) 

Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that we conclude the interroga- 
tion of this witness. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Moulder. Call your next witness, Mr. Arens. 

Mr. Arens. Adelaide Klein Annenberg, kindly come forward. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which 
you are about to give before this subcommittee of the United States 
Congress will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. I. do. 

28123—58 5 



2534 COJVDVIUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

TESTIMONY OF MRS. ADELAIDE KLEIN ANNENBERG, ACCOM- 
PANIED BY COUNSEL, PAUL M. ROSS 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc- 
cupation. 

Mrs. Annenberg. My name is Adelaide Klein Annenberg. I live 
at 145 West 55th Street, New York 19, N. Y. I am an actress. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mrs. Annenberg, in response 
to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on 
Un-American Activities ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. I am, sir. 

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself for the record. 

Mr. Ross. My name is Paul M. Ross, 635 Madison Avenue, New 
York, N. Y. 

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed, Mrs. Annenberg? 

Mrs. Annenberg. I am not employed at the moment. 

Mr. Arens. Where were you last employed ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. I just closed on Saturday night in a play called 
Jane Eyre. 

Mr. Arens. Where did it play ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. At the Belasco Theater in New York City. 

Mr. Arens. How long were you employed in that particular pro- 
duction ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. Six and a half weeks. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat productions or play were you in immediately 
prior to it? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Annenberg. I was in a play that did not come into New York. 

Mr. Arens. Where were you born ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. New York City. 

Mr. Arens. Give us a word, please, about your formal education. 

Mrs. Annenberg. I was educated in the schools of New York, in 
the high schools of New York. I have the equivalent of a college 
degree without a diploma. I never got a diploma. I finished up in 
various extension and night courses. 

Mr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in the acting pro- 
fession ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. I Avould say about 28 years. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Commmiist Party ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer the question. 

Mr. Arens. You are reading from a prepared statement now ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. Yes, I am. 

Mr. Arens. Did you prepare that statement? 

Mr. Ross. I object to the witness being asked if she prepared it. 

Mr. Arens. I request that counsel be advised that his sole and ex- 
clusive purpose is to advise his client. 

Mrs. Annenberg. T prepared the statement witli the help of my 
attorney. 

Mr. Moulder. Yon have a right to use the statement . 

Mr. Arens. Kindly proceed. 

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer the question Mr. 
Arens has just asked as I have been informed by my counsel that 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 25o5 

under the decisions of the United States Supreme Court in the Wat- 
kins and Sweezy cases, the powers of this committee are strictly 
limited to the areas of mj beliefs, expressions, or associations on the 
grounds that such questioning constitutes an interference with my 
I'ights under the first amendment ; that the enabling resolution of this 
committee is in itself an unlawful delegation of power and such ques- 
tioning is in any event beyond the jurisdiction of this committee; that 
this question or any like question cannot be pertinent to any legitimate 
subject of inquiry to which this committee can address itself under its 
enabling resolution ; that the purpose of the question addressed to me 
and any like questions, as well as the requirements of my appearance 
before your committee toda}^, is for the sake of exposure and for the 
purpose of doing me personal injury and not for the purpose of pur- 
suing any legitimate subject of inquiry which this committee is law- 
fully authorized to pursue. 

Mr. Arens. Is that all of the statement ? 

Mrs. Annenberg, That is all. 

(At this point, Mr, Scherer left the hearing room.) 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell us whether you know of this 
organization : Peoples Radio Foundation, Inc. ? Is there such an or- 
ganization to your knowledge ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. I decline to answer that question on the grounds 
I have just stated. 

Mr. Arens. Are you on the advisory council, or have you been on 
the advisory council, of the Peoples Radio Foundation, Inc. ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. I must give the same answer, sir. 

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you now, please, sev- 
eral exhibits in which your stage name, Adelaide Klein, appears as one 
of the directors, as well as on the advisory council, of the Peoples Radio 
Foundation, 100 Fifth Avenue, New York, N. Y. 

Kindly look at these exhibits and tell this committee whether or not 
you are accurately and truthfully characterized here as a director and 
as a member of the advisory council of that organization. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Annenberg. I must respectfully decline to answer on the 
grounds already stated. 

(Documents marked "Annenberg Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2," and re- 
tained in committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Martin Berkeley ? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds 
already stated. 

Mr. Arens. I do not know whether or not the record reflects that you 
are invoking the provisions of the fifth amendment against self- 
incrimination. 

Mrs. Annenberg. There has been no direction, sir. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the 
question. 

Mrs. Annenberg. In view of the direction and in view of all of the 
reasons I have just given, I must invoke my privilege under the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know Martin Berkeley ? 

Mrs. Anneberg. I must respectfully decline to answer on all of the 
grounds previously stated. 



2536 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Aeens. Martin Berkeley took an oath before this committee and 
he stated that he knew you as a member of the Communist Party. 
Was he telling the truth ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer on all of the 
grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Arens. And on all the grounds previously stated, are you en- 
compassing the provisions of the fifth amendment which endow you 
with the privilege of declining to give information which in your 
honest judgment could be used against you in a criminal proceeding? 

Mrs. Annenberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Have you taken any position on these recent purges in 
Hungary ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer that question on 
all the grounds previously stated. 

Mr._ Arens. You took a position on the purges in the Soviet Union 
in which a number of people were shot ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer that question on 
the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Arens. Was your position in defense of the Soviet Union for 
shooting them ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer that question on 
all the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Arens. I should like to display to you a copy of an article from 
New Masses, entitled "The Moscow Trials," a statement by American 
Progressives, signed by a number of people who are peaceful and pro- 
gressive — according to this, so peaceful that they are endorsing the 
murder by the Soviet Union of vast segments of its society. 

Kindly look at this article and tell this committee while you are 
under oath whether or not you lent your name as an actress to this 
statement which was issued and disseminated over the length and 
breadth of this land. 

(The document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. We have another exhibit to which we should like to 
direct your attention in which the Daily Worker calls the attention of 
the world to the leading artists and educators supporting the trial 
verdict. 

Among the leading artists who are characterized as lending the pres- 
tige and dignity and prominence of their names to this statement is 
Adelaide Klein. 

Kindly look at that exhibit, along with the one just displayed to you, 
and tell this committee whether or not you did so participate in that 
enterprise. 

(The document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferrerd with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer the questions on 
all the grounds previously stated. 

(Documents marked "Annenberg Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4," and re- 
tained in committee files. ) 

Mr. Arens. Do you know Howard Fast ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer the question on 
all the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Arens. I have an article here to which we should like to direct 
your attention which, by indirection at least, will help give us a little 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2537 

information as to whether or not Communists in the entertainment 
field are lending their prestige and dignity, the glamour of their posi- 
tion to Communist enterprises : 

"Meeting Tonight To Help Free Howard Fast." It tells of a meet- 
ing of a number of people for the purpose of sponsoring a movement to 
free Howard Fast, who was serving a jail sentence at that time for 
contempt of Congress. According to this article, Adelaide Klein, 
will participate at the meeting by reading a poem — participate in a 
dramatization of a book Freedom Road. 

Kindly look at that copy of an article and see if it refreshes your 
recollection Vvith reference to your participation in that enterprise. 

(The document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. xYnnenberg. I decline to answer those questions on all the 
grounds previously stated. 

(Document marked "Annenberg Exhibit No. 5" and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Akens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest we conclude the 
interrogation. 

Mr. Moulder. Are you the Adelaide Klein referred to in the docu- 
ments ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. I decline to answer that question on the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Moulder. Have you at any time contributed money, financial 
support, to the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer that question on 
all the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the next witness be Mr. 
Arthur Lief. Kindly come forward. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which 
you are about to give before this subcommittee of the United States 
Congress will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Lief. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR LIEF, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
DAVID A. BARNHARD 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc- 
cupation. 

Mr. Lief. My name is Arthur Lief. My residence is 44 West 77th. 
I am a musician by profession. 

Mr. Arens. Have you used any name other than Arthur Lief ? 

Mr. Lee. The only other name was the name I was born with which 
was changed by court order, which was changed about 25 years 
ago. 

(At this point, Mr. Scherer returned to the hearing room.) 

(At this point Mr. Moulder left the hearing room.) 

Mr. Arens. ¥Aat was that name, please ? 

Mr. Lief. Lipshutz. 

Mr. Arens. Was the first name Lipshutz ? 

Mr. Lief. No, it was Abraham. 



2538 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Arens. I want to be sure that the record reflects the accurate 
spelling there. Would you kindly spell both names ? 

Mr. Llef. A-b-r-a-h-a-m L-i-p-s-h-u-t-z. 

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born ? 

Mr. Lief. I was born in London, England, June 4, 1907. 

Mr. Arens. When did you come to the United States for perma- 
nent residence ? 

Mr. Lief. I believe at the age of about a year or a year and a 
half. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States ? 

Mr. Lief. I am. 

Mr. Arens. Is that by derivation ? 

Mr. Lief. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena 
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activi- 
ties? 

Mr. Lief. Yes, I am. 

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Barnhard. David A. Barnhard, 2 West 46th Street, Man- 
hattan. 

Mr. Arens. What is your present occupation ? 

Mr. Lief. I am connected with the Moiseyev Dance Co. 

Mr. Arens. Is that the Moiseyev Russian ballet ? 

Mr. Lief. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. In what connection are you associated with that en- 
terprise ? 

Mr. Lief. As American guest conductor. 

Mr. Arens. How long have you been the American guest con- 
ductor of the Russian ballet ? 

Mr. Lief. Since their first appearance here which is rouglily about 
8 or 9 weeks ago. 

Mr. Arens. Have you actually conducted for them since they have 
been in this country ? 

Mr. Lief. Yes ; I have. 

Mr. Arens. "Where have you been conducting for them ? 

Mr. Lief. In most of the cities where they have appeared from 
coast to coast. 

Mr. Arens. I have to confess to you, sir, a lack of close attention 
to the papers with reference to this Russian ballet. Wliere are they 
playing now ? 

Mr. Lief. Right now they are playing in Washington, D. C. 

Mr. Arens. In what cities have you conducted ? 

Mr. Lief. What cities ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Lief. San Francisco, St. Louis, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Bos- 
ton, Washington. 

INIr. Arens. How many performances ? 

Mr. Lief. I do several of the numbers at eacli performance. 

Mr. Arens. Who first contacted you for your job as the American 
conductor of the Russian ballet ? 

Mr. Lief. I applied for the job in the usual channels. 

Mr. Arens. Where did you apply for the job? 

Mr. Lief. To the American nnpressario who bi'ought the company 
here. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2539 

Mr. Arens. Wlien did you apply for the job ? 

Mr. Lief. When I first heard that the group was going to be 
brought here. 

Mr. Arens. What year was that ? 

Mr. Lief. I would say sometime in the fall of last year. 

Mr. Arens. Who is this American impressario? 

Mr. Lief. Mr. Hurok. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know Mr. Hurok previously ? 

Mr. Lief. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. What has been the nature of your previous acquaint- 
anceship with Mr. Hurok? 

Mr. Lief. I had worked for him in the past. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Communist Party ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have any discussion with Mr. Hurok at any 
time with respect to whether or not you are a member of the Commu- 
nist Party ? 

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Where have you been employed in the course of the 
last few years ? 

Mr. Lief. Previous to the Moiseyev company, I was on tour witli 
Invol. 

Mr. Arens. What is that? 

Mr. Lief. It is a folk-dance company from Israel. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do for Invol ? 

Mr. Lief. I was American guest conductor. 

Mr. Arens. Who arranged for your employment in that capacity ? 

Mr. Lief. Mr. Hurok. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you were a guest con- 
ductor for Invol ? 

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Proceed to give us other principal employments you 
have had in the past few years. 

Mr. Lief. Previous to Invol, I traveled with the Royale Ballet from 
London, also as American guest conductor. 

Mr. Arens. Wlio arranged for your employment in that capacity ? 

Mr. Lief. Mr. Hurok. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you were the guest con- 
ductor for the Royale Ballet of England ? 

Mr. Lief. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds of the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Give us another principal employment. 

Mr. Lief. Last summer, the summer of 1957, I was employed by 
Michael P. Grace in a production of a show in Central Park as mu- 
sical director. 

Mr. Arens. What was the show, do you recall ? 

Mr. Lief. Rosalie. 

Mr. Arens. Was that promoted by the municipal authorities or is 
it a private enterprise ? 



2540 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Lief. I cannot quite answer that accurately. I believe that it 
was a private enterprise since Mr. Grace was licensed by the park 
department to produce shows in Central Park. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of George Koukly ? 

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the gromids of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Ahens. Do you know where Koukly is employed ? 

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Was your employment with the Eussian ballet pro- 
cured for you or facilitated for you by any person known by you to 
be a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Are you, or have you been, engaged in TV work in the 
recent past? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lief. As far as I can remember, no. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a member of a trade miion in the profession ? 

Mr. Lief. Yes, I am a member of Local 802, American Federation 
of Musicians. 

Mr. Arens. Have you held any office or post in that organization ? 

Mr. Lief. No, I have not. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been the director of the Jefferson Chorus? 

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever instructed at the Metropolitan Music 
School? 

Mr. Lief. No, I have not. 

Mr. Arens. Is George Koukly one of the members of tlie orchestra 
of the Russian ballet company ? 

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have anything to do with his employment with 
the Eussian ballet company orchestra ? 

Mr. Lief, I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and (ifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Are there persons in the Eussian ballet orchestra who 
are members of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fiftli 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you received any compensation as director of the 
Jefferson Chorus? 

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fii-st and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. I have a co]:>y of the Communist Dail}' Worker in 
which an article appears : "Jefferson Chorus presents Informal Con- 
cert, directed by Arthur Lief," and so forth ; that tickets are available 
at the Jefferson School Bookshop, Local 65 Bookshop, Workers 
Bookshop. 

Kindly look at that exhibit and tell the committee whether or not 
your participation in that enterprise described in the Daily Worker 
is true, honest, and correct. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2541 

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the same grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

(Document marked "Lief Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com- 
mitee files. ) 

Mr. Arens. Have you been in any sessions other than the profes- 
sional sessions with the members of the Eussian ballet, their business 
agents, members of their company, in connection with that presenta- 
tion since their arrival in the United States ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend, sir, that if you told this 
committee the facts respecting any sessions in which you may have 
been engaged with the people of Soviet Eussia in this ballet com- 
pany, whether actors, performers, business people, and the like, you 
would be supplying information which might be used against you, 
sir, in a criminal proceeding ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness 
be directed and ordered to answer that outstanding principal question, 
which is posed to him for the purposes of testing his good faith, 
because if he does not honestlj^ apprehend that the information might 
be used against him in a criminal proceeding, he has no right to 
invoke the fifth amendment. 

On the other hand, if he does honestly apprehend that if he told 
us concerning any session he has been in with the Soviet Union people 

who are here 

^ Mr. Tuck. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the ques- 
tion. 

Mr. Lief. I must still decline to answer the question on the same 
grounds. 

Mr. Tuck. In no spirit of threat, it is my duty to warn you that 
you may be found guilty of contempt. Do you still decline to answer ? 

Mr. Lief. I do. 

Mr. Arens. How many members in the orchestra ? 

Mr. Lief. There are 25 members of the orchestra who traveled on 
the tour. 

Mr. Arens. How many of them are Americans ? 

Mr. Lief. All of them. Excuse me. There are three men who play 
accordians who are members of the Eussian company. They play 
with the company. 

Mr. Arens. Twenty-odd Americans in the orchestra ? 

Mr. Lief. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. How many of those twenty-odd Americans, to your 
knowledge, are Communists ? 

Mr. Lief. I must decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that would conclude the staff 
interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Tuck. The witness is excused. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Curt Conway, kindly come forward. 



2542 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

I suggest, in view of the fact that he does not respond to the call 
at this time, we give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he will 
be here in the morning. 

Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that that would con- 
clude the interrogation of witnesses, at least staif-wise, and I respect- 
fully sugest that we reconvene tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. 

Mr. Tuck. The meeting will stand in recess until 10 o'clock to- 
morrow. Those witnesses who have been summoned to appear today 
and who have not yet testified, will make themselves available to the 
committee at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. 

The committee stands in recess. 

(Whereupon, at 4: 20 p. m., Wednesday, June 18, 1958, the hearing 
Avas recessed, to recouA^ene at 10 a. m., on the following day.) 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 
(Entertainment) 

THUBSDAY, JUNE 19, 1958 

United States House of Representatives, 

Subcommittee of the 
Committee on Un-American Activities, 

New York, N. Y. 
Public Hearings 

The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities 
met at 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room 129, Federal Court House, 
Foley Square, New York, N. Y., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder, chair- 
man of the subcommittee. 

Committee members present : Representatives Morgan M. Moulder, 
of Missouri (appearance as noted) ; William M. Tuck, of Virginia; 
and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio. 

Staff members present : Richard Arens, staff director, and Donald 
T. Appell, investigator. 

Mr. Tuck (presiding) . The committee will come to order. 

Mr. Arens, Mr. James Proctor, kindly come forward. 

Mr. Tuck. In the testimony you are about to give do you solemnly 
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God ? 

Mr. Proctor. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JAMES D. PROCTOR, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

EPHRAIM LONDON 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Proctor. My name is James D. Proctor. I live at 20 West 
84th Street and I am a free-lance publicist. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Proctor, in response 
to a subpena which was sei"ved upon you by the House Committee 
on Un-American Activities ? 

Mr. Proctor. I am. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Proctor. I am. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. London. Ephraim London, 150 Broadway, New York City. 

Mr. Arens. Where are you currently employed ? 

Mr. Proctor. I am currently employed for a play called Look Home- 
ward, Angel. 

Mr. Arens. Wlio is your employer ? 

Mr. Proctor. Kermit Bloom^arden. 

2543 



2544 COJXUMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Arens. How long has that employment endured ? 

Mr. Proctor. That play opened in New York on Thanksgiving 
night, and I was employed on it for a period of 6 to 8 weeks pre- 
vious to its New York opening. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat was your employment immediately prior to your 
employment in the production of this play ? 

Mr. Proctor. I believe it was in a production called The Diary of 
Anne Frank. 

Mr. Arens. How long did that employment endure ? 

Mr. Proctor. For a period of about 2 years. 

Mr. Arens. And your employment immediately prior to that, if 
you recall ? 

Mr. Proctor. I believe it was a play called A View From the 
Bridge. 

Mr. Arens. How long did that employment endure ? 

Mr. Proctor. I believe that play ran for a period of about 4 or 5 
montlis. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Proctor. I am going to read a short statement, Mr. Arens, in 
reply to that question. 

I refuse on several grounds to answer your question. 

First, I consider your question improper. You are asking it, seek- 
ing to pry into my private opinions and associations. A concomitant 
of the right of free speech is the right to remain silent about one's 
thinking, and I have the right — in fact, the obligation — to resist any 
such invasion of my rights, to refuse to discuss or divulge my opin- 
ions and associations. I, therefore, exercise my constitutional rights 
under the first amendment to refuse to answer. 

Second, I do not think this committee has the right, the authority, 
or the power to require an answer to the question. There can be no 
legitimate purpose. The only possible results of the inquiry are to 
cause me to lose employment since, as you know, anyone called before 
this committee alone is considered controversial and, therefore, a can- 
didate for the blacklist. 

And, to publicly assist the members of this committee as a profes- 
sional publicist, I cannot publicly recognize the techniques employed 
by the committee in that respect. The committee cannot claim it is 
seeking information, since it has already questioned me in closed 
session. 

The committee cannot pretend after so very many years of investi- 
gation that there can be any legitimate reasons for the continuance 
of the investigation at this tune. I consider the first two reasons 
adequate and sufficient. I know, however, if I rest on them alone 
I shall be subject to harassment and expense of defending contempt 
proceedings, which I cannot afford. 

I, therefore, also invoke my fifth amendment rights to refuse to be 
a witness against myself and on that ground, also, refuse to answer 
the question. 

I will add — not because this committee has any right to know, but 
only because under the circumstances my failure to make a statement 
may mjure my associates — that I am not a member of the Communist 
Party. 

Mr. Arens. Would you read the last sentence ? 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2545 

Mr. Proctor. I will add — not because this committee has any right 
to know, but only because under the circumstances my failure to make 
the statement may injure my associates — that I am not a member of 
the Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Proctor. I have just answered the question. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully request that the witness be ordered and 
directed to answer the question as to whether he has ever been a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Tuck. The acting chairman of the committee orders and 
directs you to answer the question. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Proctor. I decline for the reasons I have already stated to 
answer the question. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party since 
you were served with your subpena to appear before this committee 
some weeks ago ? 

Mr. Proctor. I have already declined to answer that question put 
in another form. 

Mr. Arens. I suggest it is a different question and a different time 
element and I request that the witness be ordered and directed to 
answer the question whether he has been a member of the Com- 
munist Party since he was served with his subpena. 

Mr. Proctor. I invoke my constitutional rights. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Commimist Party member in the course 
of the last month ? 

Mr. Proctor. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens, Were you a Communist Party member in the course 
of the last 2 weeks ? 

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist Party member any time dur- 
ing the course of the last week ? 

Mr. Proctor. I decline on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party any time 
in the course of the last 2 days ? 

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question for the reasons 
and grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Arens. Are there persons presently in the entertainment in- 
dustry who, to your certain knowledge are, or in the recent past have 
been, members of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Proctor. Your question assumes that I would be in a position 
to know whether or not there are such people in the entertainment 
industry, and I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you truthfully gave 
this committee such knowledge as you possess as to whether there are 
people in the entertainment industry who are members of the Com- 
munist Party, you might be giving information which might be used 
against you in a criminal proceeding ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Proctor. I believe that question really to be improper but I 
decline to answer that question on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully request the witness be ordered and di- 
rected to answer the question in order to test his good faith in the 



2546 COMMUNISM ESr THE NEW YORK AREA 

invocation of the fifth amendment. He has no right to invoke that 
unless he truly apprehends that the information could be used against 
him in a criminal proceeding. 

Mr. Tuck, As acting chairman of the subcommittee, the witness is 
oi'dered and directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Proctor. My attorney advises me that the question is com- 
pletely improper. 

Mr. Arens. Does the record reflect an order and direction to the 
Avitness to answer the question ? The purpose of the question is to test 
the good faith of this man in invoking the fifth amendment because 
unless he truly apprehends possible criminal prosecution as a result 
of his answer, he does not have a right to invoke the fifth amendment. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. ScHERER. I think the statement of counsel is particularly ap- 
plicable in view of the fact that the witness, in reading his statement, 
said he was going to invoke the fifth amendment because he said he 
Avould face great expense in contempt proceedings. 

That statement on its face indicates that he is not invoking the 
amendment in good faith, and not because it will incriminate him, 
but because he will probably face contempt charges and put him to 
great expense. 

Therefore, counsel's statement in this instance is particularly 
apropos in testing his good faith in invoking the amendment. 

Mr. Tuck. I think the point is well taken and it becomes my duty 
to advise the witness through no spirit of threat that he may find him- 
self in contempt of one of the committees of Congress. In the light 
of that information, do you still decline to answer that question ? 

Mr. London. May I make a statement, Mr. Chairman ? 

Mr. Tuck. It is my understanding, under the rules of the commit- 
tee, that you are to advise your witness and he is to speak to the 
committee. 

Mr. London. It was for that reason that I asked the chairman's 
permission. I understand the rules to be the same, but I, of course, 
believe the chairman has the right to permit a statement to be made 
by counsel for any witness. 

Mr. Arens. The status of tlie record is that a request of the chair- 
man was made by myself for an order and direction to this witness 
to answer the question. Now, if lie does not answer the question, we 
will proceed to another question, and the record will then speak for 
itself. 

Mr. Tuck. He has not said whether or not he is going to answer. 

Mr. London. There is still a question to the chairman as to whether 
or not I may be permitted to make a statement. 

Mr. Tuck. I am not going to permit you to make a statement now. 
Speak to the witness. 

Mr. Arens. "Will you kindly answer the question. 

Mr. Tuck. Advise tlie witness of his constitutional rights. 

Mr. Proctor. Oh the advice of my attorney for the reasons given 
before, I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of a participation in March 
1949 in a Cultural and Scientific (Conference for World Peace, the 
so-called Waldorf-Astoria Conference, held in March of 1949 under 
the auspices of I lie National (^oiincil of the Arts, Sciences, and Pro- 
fessions ? 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2547 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question on the grounds 
previously stated, the first and fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. The Secretary of State, some few years ago, character- 
ized the Waldorf-Astoria ('onference as a sounding board for Com- 
munist propaganda. Did you know that the Waldorf-Astoria Con- 
ference was an enterprise for the dissemination of Communist 
propaganda ? 

Mr. Proctor. I do not think I have to discuss my political opinions 
here, but I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Arens. Did you, as a publicist in the entertainment industry, 
lend your talents, your prestige, to the promotion of this so-called 
Waldorf-Astoria Conference in 1949? 

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question for the reasons 
previously stated. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Elia Kazan ? 

Mr. Proctor. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know his wife? 

Mr. Proctor. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Arens. Did you call his wife, Elia Kazan's wife, on the tele- 
phone and apologize to her for using her name, without her permis- 
sion as a sponsor of this Waldorf-Astoria Conference? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question, sir. I decline on 
the same grounds, to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. I should like to read you an excerpt from testimony 
under oath before this committee by Elia Kazan, in which he speaks 
about the Waldorf-Astoria Conference and then proceeds in part 
as follows: 

I did not sponsor or attend the Waldorf Peace Conference. My wife's name 
was used as a sponsor without her permission. She protested and asked for 
its withdrawal in a letter to Professor Harlow Shapley of Harvard University, 
who had some oflScial post. She received no answer from him, but she did get 
an apology from James Proctor, who had given her name without her permission. 

Is this statement by Elia Kazan, to your certain knowledge, sub- 
stantially true and correct? 

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question on the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Arens. Who was J. Edward Bromberg? 

Mr. Proctor. An actor. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he was a Communist? 

Mr. Proctor. Your question assumes that I would be in a position 
to know whether he was a Communist. 

Mr. Arens. Were you in such a position ? 

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question on the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Arens. I want to go into the question of assumption that you 
complain about. Were you in a position to know whether or not 
J. Edward Bromberg was a Communist ? 

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you 

Mr. ScHERER. Was Mr. Arens' assumption correct or incorrect? 

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question on the grounds 
previously stated. 



2548 COMMUNISM EST THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you now a photostatic copy 
of a letter headed, "J. Edward Bromberg Memorial Evening" in 
which one of the promoters of this enterprise is listed as James 
Proctor, 

Kindly look at this letter if you please, sir, and tell this committee 
whether or not you, as a publicist in the entertainment industry, 
loaned your talents, your prestige, and your name to that enterprise 
honoring J. Edward Bromberg? 

(The document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question on the grounds 
previously stated, but I would like to add that, in my opinion, this is 
a very unfair question because you are, by mentioning these names, 
injuring these people. 

I would have the same answer if I were asked by a member of the 
committee whether Mr. Arens was a member of the Communist Party. 

(Document marked "Proctor Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. You would not take the fifth amendment on that, would 
you ? You have never served in a Communist Party meeting with me, 
have you ? If you did, you would not be invoking the fifth amend- 
ment in good faith and you would be subject to a contempt action. 

We would like to display to you a photostatic reproduction of a 
flyer, "Broadway Supports the Miners," issued in the early 1950's in 
which a number of people on Broadway — the majority of whom have 
been identified under oath by live witnesses as Communists — are to 
have, according to this flyer, a big midnight rally at the Carnival 
Eoom, Hotel Capitol, 51st Street and 8th Avenue, to hear Millard 
Lampell, who has been identified as a Communist. 

Among the persons on Broadway who are lending their names and 
glamor and prestige to this rally, we see listed the name of James 
Proctor. 

If this name is listed erroneously or without your consent, then 
kindly tell us. Kindly look at that document and be good enough to 
verify its authenticity, if you will, of that listing. 

(A document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Proctor. Have you made a statement or are you asking me a 
question ? 

Mr. Arens. I think the record is clear. I respectfully suggest that 
you answer the question. 

Mr. Proctor. I am honestly puzzled as to the question. 

Mr. Arens. Does that flier there, which you now hold in your hand 
listing your name along with a nmnber of other persons sponsoring 
the rally, "Broadway Supports the Miners," truly and correctly rep- 
resent the fact that you did, with your knowledge and consent, let 
them use your name ? 

Mr. Proctor. I must decline to answer that question sir. 

(Document marked "Proctor Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Have you, over the course of the last several years, as 
a Broadway publicity agent, contributed your talents and your energy 
and your ability to the promotion of certain Communist-front activi- 
ties? 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2549 

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Aeens. I respectfully suggest we conclude the staff interroga- 
tion of this witness. 

Mr. Tuck. There are no further questions of this witness. The 
witness is excused. 

Call your nest witness. 

Mr. Arens. Joseph Papirofsky, kindly come forM'ard. 

(At this point Mr. Moulder entered the hearing room.) 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you 
are about to give before this subcommittee of the United States Con- 
gress will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God ? 

Mr. Papxrofskt. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH PAPIEOFSKY (PAPP), ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, EPHRAIM LONDON 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Papirofsky. My name is Joseph Papirofsky. 

Mr. Arens. Would you be good enough to spell that for us, please ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. P-a-p-i-r-o-f-s-k-y. I reside at 410 Central Park 
West, in Manhattan, and I am a producer of Shakespearean plays 
for Central Park. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Papirofsky, in response 
to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on 
Un-American Activities ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. London. Ephraim London, 150 Broadway, New York City. 

Mr. Arens. Are you also kno^^l, Mr. Papirofsky, as Mr. Papp ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes, my professional name is Mr. Papp. 

Mr. Arens. "Wliere and when were you born, please sir ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I was born in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, June 22, 
1921. 

Mr. Arens. Give us a word please, sir, about your formal educa- 
tion. 

Mr. Papirofsky. High-school graduate. 

Mr. Arens. And a thumbnail sketch, if you do not mind, sir, of 
your professional career. 

Mr. Papirofsky. Working from the present back ? 

Mr. Arens. Either direction, whichever is more convenient to you. 

Mr. Papirofsky. My present work is primarily centered around 
the New York Shakespeare Festival, which is an educational non- 
profit organization chartered by the State education department, 
established for the purpose of producing plays for the general public 
without admission charge. 

The programs also include free performances of Shakespeare for 
high-school students. 

28123—58 6 



2550 COAIMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Arens. May I interrupt to ask you right there, is there a dis- 
tinction to be made between the New York Shakespeare Festival and 
the New York Shakespeare Workshop ( 

Mr. Papirofsky. The Workshop is the correct coi-jjorate name 
under the New York laws. Shakespearean Theater A\^rkshop is a 
modification of that. 

Mr. Arens. The Shakespeare Workshop produces the Shakespeare 
Festival, is that correct? 

Mr. Papirofsky. In effect, I would say that is correct. 

Mr. Arens. If I am not burdening you too much here in the reci- 
tation of the facts of this particular enterprise, what is your con- 
nection with the Workshop % 

Mr. Papirofsky. I am producer of the New York Shakespeare 
Festival having the same role with the Workshop. 

Mr. Arens. How long has the Workshop been in existence? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I believe the charter was issued in Septenaber of 
1954. 

Mr. Arens. Is it incorporated ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. It is a State-chartered organization. It is a non- 
profit organization. I am the head and founder of the organization 
and the moving force behind the organization. 

Mr. Arens. Does it enjoy tax-free status ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes, it does. 

Mr. Arens. Do you receive a salary from this Workshop ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I began to receive a salary 5 months ago. For 
the first 3 years, I received no salary. 

Mr. Arens. Is this a full-time activity by yourself \ 

Mr. Papirofsky. It is a most time-consuming and full-time activity. 

Mr. Arens. Would you give us a word, sir, about your prior em- 
ployment ? 

Mr. Moulder. How is it financed ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. It is financed through contributions from the gen- 
eral public, from foundations, and part of the financing, indirect 
finance, is the fact that w^e are on city property and the city, in effect, 
contributes facilities for making that possible. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. On that same theme, could you give us a word about 
the budget? What is the aggregate income and expenditure of the 
organization ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. It is related to what it costs to produce a Shake- 
spearean play. We have clone, starting 2 years ago in the park, with 
Julius Caesar, the Taming of the Shrew, which vv as done on the lower 
East Side. Then we moved into the Central Park with Romeo and 
Juliet. 

Mr. Arens. I did not make myself clear. What is the approximate 
budget of the organization per year? 

Mr. Papirofsky. It is very difficult to get an exact figure, but I can 
tell you what a show would cost. I mentioned the number of shows, 
you might add it up, because the costs have increased as we go on 
because we began to pay people's salaries. Prior to this point, there 
were no salaries paid. 

The production we plan to open on July 2, will cost approximately 
$4,000 a week to run and has a preproduction cost of approximately 
$18,000. This is the highest budget we have had yet. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2551 

Mr. Arens. Would the budget in the aggregate for all of the activ- 
ities of the organization run in the neighborhood of a million dollars 
a year ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. No, I am afraid not. I would say roughly if we 
were to continue on the basis we are playing now, it would cost ap- 
proximately — playing 10 or 11 months a year — $200,000 a year to 
operate. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell us the employment you had 
prior to your connection with the Workshop ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I did not hear the lirst part of your question. 
Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us the employment you had prior to your 
employment with the Workshop, just your prior employment. 
(The witness conferred witli his counsel.) 

Mr. Papirofsky. Prior to working with the Festival, I was em- 
ployed by CBS as a stage manager. 

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I am still employed by CBS as a stage manager. 
Mr. Arens. When did that employment begin ? 
Mr. Papirofsky. It began sometime in 1951. 
Mr. Arens. What productions have you managed ? 
Mr. Papirofsky. A variety of productions. I am on the staff of 
the Columbia Broadcasting System and do many, many shows. The 
last show I did last night was, I've Got a Secret. 
Mr. Arens. "What was your connection prior to CBS? 
Mr. Papirofsky. Prior to that I was in California and I worked for 
the Actors' Laboratory, Inc. 

Mr. Arens. How long did you work for the Actoi-s' Laboratory, 
Inc.? 

Mr, Papirofsky. I came to the Actors' Laboratory as a student un- 
der the GI bill, and then I became employed there for approximately 
2 years. I think it was from 1948 to 1950. 
Mr. Arens. In what capacity ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I worked in the office as kind of a manager. 
Mr. Arens. Were there any other schools with which you were con- 
nected in California ? 
(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes, I also taught acting to working people at 
the California Labor School ; again, this was a labor of love. 

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time did you teach acting at the 
California Labor School ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I do not remember exactly but I think it was for 
about a year. I do not remember the exact date. 

Mr. Arens. Did you teach at any other school in California? 
Mr. Papirofsky. I am trying to remember. I did do some teach- 
ing — this is extracurricular — at UCLA. 

Mr. Arens. Did you do any teaching at the People's Drama School 
of Theatre in California ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. No, not in California. 
Mr. Arens. Where was that ? 
Mr. Papirofsky. In New York. 

Mr. Arens. What period of time did you teach there? 
Mr. Papirofsky. 6 or 7 months. I taught acting. 
Mr. Arens. Mr. Papirofsky, are you now, or have you ever beoji, a 
member of the Communist Party ? 



2552 COMMUNISM m the new york area 

Mr. Papirofskt. I am not now a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party at any 
time since you received your subpena to appear before this committee ? 

(The witness conferred with his comisel.) 

Mr. Papirofskt. I must decline to answer that question on the 
grounds of self-incrimination. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party during 
tliQ course of the last month ? 

Mr. Papirofskt. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. When were you served with your subpena to appear 
before this committee? Our records reflect it, but I do not have it 
readily available. 

Mr. Papirofskt. I wish you would read it to me because I do not 
have the exact date. 

Mr. Ar^NS. You were served with your subpena to appear before 
this committee on April 16, 1958, according to our records. Does 
that refresh your recollection ? 

Mr. Papirofskt. I think that is approximately the time. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party at 
any time since you received your subpena on April 16, 1958 ? 

Mr. Papirofskt. No, sir ; I have not. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party in 
the course of the last year ? 

Mr. Papirofskt. No, sir. Would you specify the years — 1957 and 
1958 — no, sir ; I have not. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party any 
time since January 1955 ? 

Mr. Papirofskt. I must decline to answer that question on the 
grounds of self-incrimination. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party 
since June 1955 ? 

Mr. Papirofskt. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party any 
time since February 1955 ? 

Mr. Papirofskt. I must decline to answer that question on the 
same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Are there persons presently in the entertaimnent in- 
dustry who, to your certain knowledge, are or in the recent past have 
been members of the Communist Party ? 

(The witness conferred Avith his counsel.) 

Mr. Papirofskt. I am afraid I do not know the answer to that 
question. 

Mr. Arens. Have you resigned from the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Papirofskt. The assumption is that I was a member of the 
Communist Party; and, therefore, I must respectfully decline to an- 
swer that on the basis of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist, though not a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Papirofskt. The answer to that is "No." 

Mr. Arens. Have you been since January 1, 1955, a Communist? 

Mr. Papirofskt. I must decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Did I understand you to say that when you were in- 
structing at the California Labor School there was no compensation 
involved ; it was a labor of love ? 



COMMTJNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2553 

Mr. Papirofsky. To the best of my knowledge, I think there was 
no pay. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know that the California Labor School was 
controlled by the Communist conspiracy ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I did not know it was so controlled. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you were teaching at the 
California Labor School ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I must decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you were teacliing at the 
Actors' Laboratory ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I must decline to answer that on the grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time did you teach at this Labora- 
tory ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I think it was about 6 months. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you were teaching at the 
People's Drama School of Theater ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I must decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a member of a professional trade union ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Which one ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. Kadio and Television Directors Guild. 

Mr. Arens. How long have you been connected with that organi- 
zation ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. Approximately 6 years. 

Mr. Arens. Have you held any post or office in that organization ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I have never been an officer of the organization. 

Mr. Arens. During the course of your period of instructing at the 
California Labor School, the People's Drama School, or the Actors' 
Laboratory, did you ever recruit anyone into the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I must decline to answer that, sir, on the same 
grounds. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Papirofsky. If the intent of that question was whether I used 
my position to get members into the Conmiunist Party, I must say 
"No" to that. 

Mr. Arens. Did you use your position as a director on behalf of 
People's Drama? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I taught acting at the People's Drama. 

Mr. Arens. I have a thermofaxed reproduction of an article ap- 
pearing in the Communist Daily Worker entitled, "Theatre Groups, 
Noted Actors Wire Support to People's Drama." 

The wire of support from famous actors signed by half a dozen 
persons, including Joe Papirofsky, all of the executive committee of 
Actors' Laboratory Theatre, reads in part : 

Outraged at news of brutal hoodlum attack on Actors. Flagrant display of 
direct censorship. 

Kindly look at that article which Mr. Appell is now displaying to 
you and tell this committee whether or not it refreshes your recollec- 
tion, whether or not j'ou used your prestige in the entertainment in- 
dustry in that protest, 

(The document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 



2554 coMivruNiSM est the new york area 

Mr. Papirofsky. I must say my answer is still unchanged, sir. I 
have always been opposed to censorship and I would send another wire 
if there were censorship again, lending my support to an attack of this 
kind, because this was a direct attack on tliese people, and I felt 
at the time that it was absolutely wrong and I would do it agam. 

(Document marked "Papirofsky Exhibit No. 1," and retained in 
committee files.) 
Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you sent that wire ? 
Mr. Papirofsky. I must decline to answer on the same grounds. 
Mr. Arens. AVliat name did you use when you were in California ? 
Mr. Papirofsky. Joseph Papirofsky. 

Mr. Arens. When did you begin the use of the name Papp? 
Mr. Papirofsky. It was not my doing. It began at CBS. They 
have a very small type schedule and my name was too long, and they 
condensed it and they began to call me Papp, and I began to use the 
name. 

Mr. Arens. You have expressed yourself publicly with reference 
to the committee before which you are appearing today. 

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes; I did express myself publicly, if I remem- 
ber correctly, and my opinion is exactly the same today as it was 
then. 

Mr. Arens. Is your opinion — and I am not trying to probe your 
opinion — still in condemnation of Larry Parks, who broke from the 
Communist Party and came before the committee and identified a 
number of Communists ? Are you still hostile to that man ? 
Mr. Papirofsky. Am I hostile to him ? 
Mr. Arens. Yes. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Papirofsky. The feeling I would have about Mr. Parks would 
be the same feeling I would have about anybody who would gratu- 
itously injure the people who work with him in the way he did. 

Mr. Arens. What if Mr. Parks, instead of having been in the Com- 
munist conspiracy, had been in a narcotics ring and came before the 
appropriate investigating committee and identified persons active in 
the narcotics ring ? Would you be in opposition to lum then ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I am afraid I cannot go into that question because 
the one case you mentioned with Mr. Parks, has to do with a man 
because of the way he functioned, hurt the employment of people, 
innocent people, by mentioning names, and so forth. Whereas, the 
narcotic situation is hurting men's bodies and not their thinking. 

Mr. Arens. You acclaimed Mr. Parks publicly at one time and 
used your prestige and used the glamour of your position to acclaim 
Mr. Parks when he at first refused to cooperate with the Committee 
on Un-American Activities. 

Mr. Papirofsky. I have no glamour and prestige. I think it is a 
misnomer to use that. 

Mr. Arens. You let your name be used in acclaim of Larry Parks 
when he refused to cooperate with the Committee on Un-American 
Activities ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes ; if you have a record of it there, I would have 
to say I did. 
Mr. Arens. Do you recall doing that ? 
Mr. Papirofsky. No, sir ; I do not. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2555 

Mr. Arens. Let me lay before you a thermofaxed reproduction of 
an advertisement bearing the names of a number of persons: 

The Thomas Rankin Committee Must Go ! 

We, the undereigned members of the acting profession, acclaim Larry Parks 
one of the "unfriendly nineteen" ; We acclaim those actors who appeared in 
Washington to protest the star chamber proceedings * * * those others who 
broadcast their indignation on the air and in the press * * * and those who 
remained to fight here. We are proud that they are upholding the finest tradi- 
tions of our profession and our country. 

This advertisement appeared just before Parks decided he was 
going to cooperate with the committee and it bears, among others, 
the name of Joseph Papirofsky. 

Kindly look at that and tell us whether or not you have a recol- 
lection of joining in that enterprise and letting your name be used. 

Mr. Papibofsky. "The Thomas Rankin Committee Must Go''? 

Mr. Aeens. Yes ; that is correct. 

Mr. Papirofsky. That is my name here. 

Mr. Arens. Did you consciously and knowingly lend your name to 
that enterprise ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I think I have stated my position on the question 
of the committee. 

Mr. Arens. Did you do so in that instance ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. My name is there so I certainly did. 

(Document marked "Papirofsky Exhibit No. 2," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Do you recall doing it ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. No ; I do not recall. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you did it ? 

Mr. Papirofsky'. I must refuse to answer on the same grounds as 
I mentioned before. 

Mr. Arens. Have you knowingly lent your name in the course of 
your professional career to enterprises which to your certain knowl- 
edge were promoted by the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I must decline to answer that question, sir, on the 
same grounds I mentioned ])reviously. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that would conclude the staff 
interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions by the committee ? 

Did counsel ask you your age ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I gave my date of birth, Representative Moulder. 

I would like to submit this, if you do not mind, sir. This is a maga- 
zine published by the State Department and sent to Russia — an ex- 
ample of American democracy at work. The work of this cover is 
the work of the New York Festival. Inside there is a series of pic- 
tures describing our work as descriptive of the free democratic culture. 
I see no mention of the Un-American xlctivities Committee, so I 
must assume what we are doing, the Department feels, is a much more 
important function. 

I also submit the Voice of America tapes that I have made to var- 
ious countries as an examjile of free democracy to this country. I feel 
that what I believe in can be best stated this way. 

Mr. Scherer. When you were making those Voice of America tapes, 
were you a member of the Communist Party ? 



2556 COMMUNISM EST THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Papirofsky. No, sir, I was not a member of the Communist 
Party when I was making the Voice of America tapes. 

Mr. ScHERER. Did you disclose to the State Department that you 
had been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. PAPiRorsKY. I must declme to answer that question on the same 
constitutional grounds as I mentioned prior. The State Department 
requested that these pictures be submitted. 

Mr. ScHERER. I was talking about the tapes. 

Mr. Papirofsky. No, I must decline to answer that question on the 
grounds previously mentioned. 

Mr. Moulder. The magazine referred to b;^ the witness will be re- 
ceived and filed with the committee in connection with your testimony 
and the recordings to which you have referred will also be received in 
connection with your testimony. 

Mr. Papirofsky. I hope to have this back. I would like to leave 
them if I can have them returned at a future date. 

Mr. Moulder. All right, they will be returned to you. 

I had forgotten what you said your age to be. 

Mr. Papirofsky. I will be 37 this coming Sunday. 

Mr. Moulder. Are you married ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes, sir, and I have a 3^ month old baby. 

Mr. Moulder. Were you in the Armed Forces ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes, sir ; I was in the Navy. I was in the service 
for 3 years. 

Mr. Moulder. At any time during your professional career or in 
connection with the work that you are doing at the present time, do 
you have the opportunity to inject into your plays or into the acting or 
the entertainment supervision which you have, any propaganda in any 
way which would influence others to be sympathetic with the Com- 
munist philosophy or the beliefs of communism ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. Sir, the plays we do are Shakespeare's plays. 
Shakespeare said, "To thine own self be true," and various other Imes 
from Shakespeare can hardly be said to be subversive or influencing 
minds. I cannot control the writings of Shakespeare. He wrote 
plays 500 years ago. 

I am in no position in any plays where I work to influence what 
the final product will be, except artistically and except in terms of 
my job as a producer. 

Mr. Moulder. My point is, do you intentionally control the opera- 
tion of the entertainment which you produce or supervise for the 
purpose of influencing sympathy toward communism? That is my 
point. 

Mr. Papirofsky. The answer to that is obviously "No." The plays 
speak for themselves. I began to mention the plays that we did. 
Maybe some of these plays might be considered propagandistic. 

Mr. Arens. We are not concerned with the plays and you laiow we 
are not, and there is no suggestion here by this chairman or anyone 
else that Shakespeare was a Communist. That is ludicrous and ab- 
surd. That is the Commie line. 

The inquiry of this committee is solely with reference to Communist 
activities, Communist propaganda, the extent to which Communists, 
people in the Communist Party, have used their prestige in the theater 
to promote Communists; and for you to twist this testimony in the 
presence of the public press here to give an implication that the 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2557 

cliairman is trj'ing to elicit information from you that Shakespeare 
was subversive or this committee is investigating Shakespeare, in- 
vestigating that type of thing, is not only ludicrous, but it is highly 
unfair. 

Mr. Papirofsky. I am sorry. I think 3^ou misunderstand me. 

Mr. Arens. I did not misunderstand you. 

Mr. Papirofsky. I am saying that over the past years I have been 
devoting all my energies to this project, in which the plays of Shake- 
speare are most important. 

Mr. Arens. Have 3^ou been devoting some of your energy to the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I think I have answered all of those questions the 
way you have put them forward to me. 

Mr. Moulder. I was very much impressed by your straightforward 
and honest replies to counsel concerning j'our background and your 
work. TV^ien it comes to the question of whether you have been ac- 
tively connected with the Communist Party, that is a different mat- 
ter. I do not intend to intei'i'ogate you about your philosophies or 
beliefs unless you volunteer to submit that information. 

Mr. Papirofsky. I voluntarily submitted that information because 
I think it is important in terms of how I am to be judged by anybody. 

Mr. IMouLDER. Have you undergone any cliange in your beliefs, in 
your philosophies or social beliefs, and the form of government we 
should have, during the past 2 or 3 years? Have you changed your 
opinion in that connection ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. Changed my opinion from what ? 

Mr. Moulder. In your philosophy of government or form of gov- 
ernment we should have. 

Mr. Papirofsky. My opinions change constantly, and they have 
changed from time to time on many, many subjects. 

Mr. Moulder. You understand, of course, the Communist philos- 
ophy is antispiritual, antireligious, and is very much in conflict with 
our system in the American form of government and the American 
way of life. Do you agree with that ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I am not antispiritual or antireligious in any way. 

Mr. Moulder. You mentioned a while ago that to give names of 
other people, such as Larry Parks, you considered wrong, when it does 
injury to other people ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes. 

Mr. Moulder. If commimism is not subversive or a danger to our 
American form of government and our way of life, then what harm 
is done by revealing the names of people who are active in the Com- 
munist Party and the Communist movement? 

Mr. Papirofsky. First, the question assumes I know these people. 

Mr. Moulder. I am not asking you that. I am asking you, as a 
result of your statement, what harm is done if communism is not 
subversive and is not a threat to our form of government, and the 
American way of life, then what harm does it do to reveal the names 
of people who are active members of the Communist Party, if that is 
true? 

Mr. Papirofsky. I understand the question. Representative 
Moulder. You know there is a blacklisting device that lists in the in- 
dustry ; and the naming of people this way does deny these people the 
right to work, which I think is terribly unfair and un-American. 



2558 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Arens. Who denies them the right to work ? 

Mr. Papirofsky. Because of the kinds of publicity accumulated at 
tliese hearings, as was indicated yesterday, one of the people was. 

Mr. Arens. Do you think it is in the public interest for those who 
are in a conspiracy to be engaged in public media of expression? 

Mr. Papirofsky. Do I think people should know about this, did you 

Mr. Arens. Do you think it is wrong to disassociate from public 
media of expression, in this country, people who are secret members 
of a conspiracy which has as its vowed objective the overthrow of this 
Government by force and violence ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Papirofsky. I just think it is wrong to deny anybody employ- 
ment because of their political beliefs. 

Mr. Arens. Do you think it is wrong to employ them if they are 
members of a conspiratorial apparatus? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Papirofsky. This question that you ask assumes that there is a 
conspiracy and that I know about it, and I must decline to answer it 
on the same grounds. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Benjamin Steinberg, come forward please. 

Mr. MouLDi^R. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give before this subcommittee of the United States Con- 
gress will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God ? 

Mr. Steinberg. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF BEN STEINBERG, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
VICTOR RABINOWITZ 

Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and oc- 
cupation. 

Mr. Steinberg. My name is Ben Steinberg. I live at 620 East 
90th Street, and I am a professional musician. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly spell your name, please ? 

Mr. Steinberg. B-e-n S-t-e-i-n-b-e-r-g. I was born Benjamin, as 
you said, but I always use Ben. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Steinberg, in response 
to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Commit- 
tee on Un-American Activities ? 

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Steinberg. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. Rabinowitz. Victor Rabinowitz, 25 Broad Street, New York. 

Mr. Arens. "Wliere are you employed, Mr. Steinberg? 

Mr. Steinberg. I am employed m Music Man and in many other 
odd places where I do free-lance work. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ? 

Mr. Steinp^erg. I am a musician. I am what is called an outside 
contractor and I am a violinist and I am assistant conductor. 

Mr. Arens. What do you mean by an outside contractor ? 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2559 

Mr. Steinberg. I am only hesitating because I am trying to figure 
out liow to make it as short as possible. The hiring methods in our 
industry are rather varied, as they are in many others. 

Mr. Arens. Generally speaking, what is an outside contractor^ 

Mr. Steinberg. An outside contractor is a man who represents the 
choices of people concerned with the production of a musical show 
with a theater contractor who is the only person officially empowered 
to engage musicians in New York City. 

Mr. Arens. Do you participate m any way as an outside con- 
tractor in selecting the musicians who are to play in these produc- 
tions ? 

Mr. Steinberg. In some way, yes. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us about that, please, sir. 

Mr. Steinberg. When one starts to put together an orchestra for 
a show, there are many people involved in the choices of musicians. 
For instance, there may be a composer who might want a particular 
musician; a musical director might want certain people; somebody 
working in the office might have a musician. The theatei- contractor, 
of course, will have choices and the theater owners will have choices. 

Usually these choices come down to perliaps 99 choices for 24 jobs 
and then I would get together with the theater contractor, and we 
would try to iron out a list of 24. 

Mr. Arens. You, then, participate in the selection of the musicians 
wlio are to play ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Steinberg. That is true. 

Mr. Arens. Did you do so in Music Man ? 

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Did you do so in Golden Apple ? 

Mr. Steinberg. In Golden Apple I would say "No." In fact, I be- 
lieve I was one of the last people engaged for Golden Apple. 

Mr. Arens. Were you engaged as a conductor ? 

Mr. Steinberg. As assistant conductor. 

Mr. Arens. Did you participate in any other productions in the 
last few years ? 

Mr. Steinberg, Yes, I have conducted quite a number of things. 
I was musical director for Sandhog, which is a musical at the Phoenix 
Theater. I conducted for Ballet Theater. I conducted odd shows, 
single things, records, different things like that. 

Mr. Arens. In the production in which you are presently engaged, 
did you participate in the hiring of June Eotenberg? 

(The witness conferred w^ith his counsel.) 

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Arens. Did you recommend that June Eotenberg be hired ? 

Mr. Steinberg. No, I did not have to because she had worked for 
the same people immediately prior to this and since she is one of the 
most famous of the bass players in New York, she is more than wel- 
come in any orchestra. 

Mr. Arens. Did you recommend or participate favorably in behalf 
of Sterling Hunkins in tlie orchestra '( 

Mr. Steinberg. In this case it is not necessary because he is the tirst 
cello favorite of the theater contiactor and I would have no objection 
to so fine a cellist as Mr. Hunkins. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know Avhetiier or not June Eotenberg is a 
member of the Communist Party ? 



2560 coMJxnnsrisM in the new york area 

Mr. Steinberg. I would like to read a short statement in answer to 
tliis question, please : 

The committee's investigation is not in fact being carried on for 
the purposes set forth in the resolution creating it. It has harmed 
one of the finest symphony orchestras in the country — an orchestra 
whose Far Eastern tour for the State Department was so fantastically 
successful that official citations were received from Far Eastern gov- 
ernments and foreign musical organizations were formed in its honor. 

It is now 11 years since the first investigation of cultural artists, 
and this is the fourth consecutive year in New York City. I consider 
this an illegal harassment of members of the entertaimnent industry. 

This is beyond the jurisdiction of the connnittee as it is defined in 
the House enabling resolution. It is not pertinent to any subject 
within the coimnittee's jurisdiction. 

The resolution creating this committee is unconstitutionally vague 
and, hence, invalid as the Supreme Court held in the Watkins case, and 
the question put by the chairman invades those privileges which I 
consider to be my birthright, the freedom of association, and the 
freedom of religion. 

Since I will not testify as to my own associations and beliefs, I 
woidd certainly not testify as to others. 

Mr. Moulder. Those are your reasons for answer ? 

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moulder. The committee directs and orders the witness to 
answer the question propounded by counseL 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Air. Arens. Now, kindly answer the question. 

Mr. Steinberg. I must decline to answer this question for the same 
reasons. 

Mr. Arens. Let the record be clear. We want the record to be 
absolutely clear. We have asked you if you know or do not know if 
June Rotenberg is a member of the Communist Party. You have 
declined to answer that question, but you have not thus far invoked 
those provisions of the fifth amendment which give you the privilege 
of not giving information against yourself which you think could be 
used in a criminal proceeding. Do you miderstand that ? 

Mr. Steinberg. I understand it and I do not think anything can be 
used in criminal proceedings against me. I believe that the fifth 
amendment 

Mr, Arens. Do you understand the question ? The question is, Do 
you Iviiow whether June Rotenberg is a Commmiist ? 

The reason why we want you to answer that question is because it is 
our information that June Rotenberg is, or in the recent past has been, 
a member of the Communist Party and she, along with others, has been 
engaged with you in Communist activities. 

We are interested in one thing and that is communism and Com- 
munist activities. The reason why we want to know that is because 
this committee has pending before it legislative proposals, dealing 
not with musicians as you would make the press believe, but with 
Communists and Commmiist activities ; and for the purpose of apprais- 
ing that legislation, it is necessary for this committee to have factual 
information. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2561 

We have, we think, an instance here in which, if you will answer 
the question, we can develop facts which will be of use to this com- 
mittee in its legislative functions. 

Let the record be absolutely clear. You are not invoking, I take 
it, the fifth amendment in response to questions as to whether or not, 
to your certain knowledge, June Rotenberg is a member of the Com- 
munist Party. I just want the record to be clear on that issue. 

Mr. Steinberg. I think I said 11 years of investigation of this 
industry is a little bit too much for legislative use and justification, 
besides which that, although I believe every word of the fifth amend- 
ment is immortal — part of the Constitution of the United States — I 
believe that its use by citizens has been under attack and I believe 
that it is my patriotic duty to resist this attack by basing my defense 
here on the fact that Congress has reserved to the people the right of 
free association and free speech and it has specifically denied this area 
to Government. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, so the record can be clear, so clear no one 
can misunderstand it, in view of the fact that there has been an answer 
intervening here, I request that you again direct the witness to answer 
the question as to whether or not he knows if June Rotenberg is a 
member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Moulder. Yes, the witness is ordered and directed to answer 
the question. 

Mr. Steinberg. I decline to answer for the same reasons. 

Mr. AnENS. Could you tell us whether or not to your certain knowl- 
edge Sterling Hunkins is a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Steinberg. I decline to answer for the same reasons. 

Mr. Arens. Do those reasons encompass the provisions of the fifth 
amendment against self-incrimination ? 

Mr. Steinberg. Do you mean for me ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Steinberg. They do not. 

Mr. Arens. In other words, you are not invoking the provisions of 
the fifth amendment which give you the privilege of not giving 
information that could be used against you in criminal proceedings ? 

Mr. Steinberg. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully request the witness be ordered and di- 
rected to answer this last outstanding question. I am willing to repeat 
the recitation I gave before with respect to June Rotenberg, which is 
also applicable to Sterling Hunkins. 

I respectfully request that the witness be ordered and directed to 
answer this question. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the 
question. 

Mr. Steinberg. I refuse to answer that. That invades my privacy 
of association and free speech. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Steinberg. I refuse to answer this question on the same 
grounds. 

Mr. Moulder. In other words, you are refusing to answer for all 
of the reasons you have previously stated throughout your testimony 
for refusing to answer ? 



2562 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Steinberg. Thank you, Mr. Chairman ; that is right. 

Mr. Arens. ^Vliat has been your past employment over the course 
of, say, the last 3 or 4 years ? You have told us about your connection 
witli Music Man and Golden Apple and 1 or 2 others. Can you give 
us a fcAv of tlie highlights of the princif)al emplo^-ment you have had ? 

Mr. Steinberg, I tiiink that is principally it, as far as jobs of any 
length of time are concerned. I may play a single record date here 
or there or conduct a day here or there. 

Mr. Arens. Were you the conductor for a ballet presented in Los 
Angeles by a Greek theater association ? 

Mr. Steinberg. Yes ; I was. 

Mr. Arens. When was that ? 

Mr. Steinberg. Last August, the beginning of tlie month. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have anything to do in that instance with the 
employment of people ? 

Mr. Steinberg. No. Since this is an orchestra engaged there, I 
do not know the musicians available and who are working and who 
are not. Xhey have someone there who does that. 

Mr. Arens. Do you belong to a musician's union ? 

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. IVliat is that ? 

Mr. Steinberg. It is a fine union, Local 802. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever held any office or post in the union ? 

Mr. Steinberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Did you make a trip for the Symphony of the Air 
under the auspices of the State Department? 

Mr. Steini^.erg. I did not. This was an instance in which I should 
have been asked since I was a regular member of the NBC under 
Toscanini. However, I was not invited, so I did not go. 

Mr. Arens. Did you take any of the trips ? 

Mr. Steinberg. No. I want to say in alluding to the orchestra 
that was hurt, in my statement, I meant the Symphony of the Air, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Were you connected, or have you been connected, with 
the Metropolitan Music School, Inc. ? 

Mr. Steinberg. Well, actually, no. There is this slight relation- 
ship with the Metropolitan Music School. I had been asked to give 
this school a scholarship and I at first refused because I just do not 
like to teach. 

However, since some of the teachers are of very fine standing and 
they said the school needed help, I did agree to give a scholarship 
for this school. However, this scholarship was never taken advan- 
tage of. 

I never gave a lesson for the school either at the school or any place 
else. My actual association with tlie scliool was, therefore, nil. How- 
ever, I must object to the kind of thing being said about this music 
school. I did not see a conspiracy in this school. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know any Communists in the school ? 

Mr. Steinberg. I decline to answer that for the other reasons. 

Mr. Arens. Wlien you say there is no conspiracy in the school, you 
know, do you not, that this committee conducted such an investiga- 
tion? 

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, and your informer said politics was never 
mixed with music. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2563 

Mr. Abens. Most of the key people were identified under oath as 
members of the Communist conspiracy, Communist Party. Wlien 
given the opportunity to deny the identification, they all invoked the 
privileges of the fifth amendment. Do you know that ? 

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, but I also know I read in the Herald Tribune 
tliat one person who cooperated with the committee said that politics 
Avas never mixed with music at the school, so to me it is simply a music 
school to teach music to children. 

Mr. Arens. Did you support the V. J. Jerome Defense Committee ? 
Did you lend your name to that enterprise '^ 

Mr. Steinberg. Mr. Chairman, this particular trial was, I felt, 
one of the most important in the last decade or more since this was 
the first time, I believe, people were being prosecuted for belief rather 
t han deed. 

I was asked to help raise funds for JMr. Jerome's defense. I felt 
since this trial was important, I felt JMr. Jerome deserved, like any 
other defendant, a right to a fair trial, the right to legal counsel, the 
right to raise monej^s to pay his legal counsel, and all of the other 
expensive procedures of a court trial. 

Although I offered and I did try very hard to get musicians to appear 
at a rally at wdiich they would raise money for Mr. Jerome's defense, 
I was much saddened by the fact that many, many fuie musicians who 
agreed that, although they did not agree with Mr. Jerome's political 
views, nevertheless, they still felt he had a right to competent defense, 
but were afraid to play at this rally because they were afraid tliey 
would lose their jobs. 

I think this is one of the basic wrongs that 20 years of investigations 
of this kind has done, and that is, I believe, someone does have the 
right to defend an unpopular defendant in America. 

That is the kind of America that I grew up in and the kind I want 
back. 

Mr. Arens. "V\^io was Mr. Jerome ? 

Mr. Steinberg. I believe he was one of the first 11 people to be in- 
dicted under the Smith Act. 

Mr. Akens. As a what ? 

Mr. Steinberg. I suppose he was an official of the Communist 
Party. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you undertook to elicit 
financial support for Mr. Jerome ? 

Mr. Steinberg. I did not quite finish. As I said, I was saddened by 
the fact that musicians who agreed with the principle, would not 
j^erform. Since I was unsuccessful in getting people to play at this 
l^articular rally, my association with the committee ended at that point. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you were soliciting funds 
for Jerome ? 

Mr. Steinberg. Mr. Chairman, I must decline to answer that on 
the same grounds as before. 

Mr. Moulder. Without repeating the causes, you are now asserting 
and claiming all of the reasons which you have heretofore stated 
throughout your testimony as a reason for not answering? 

Mr, Steinberg. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Who solicited you to solicit funds for Jerome? 

(The Avitness conferred with his counsel.) 



2564 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Steinberg. Mr. Chairman, the idea of naming someone for this 
committee is repugnant to me. It is just an assault to me on my own 
personal dignity. I could not possibly turn informer and I decline to 
answer on all of the previous grounds 1 suggested. 

]Mr. AiiENS. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer the question. 

]Mr. ISIouLDER. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the 
question. 

Mr. AuENS. It is clear you are not invoking the fifth amendment? 

Mr. Steinberg. It is very clear. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a participant in the Young Communist 
League ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Steinberg. I must decline to answer that on the same grounds, 
Mr. Chairman. 

]\Ir. Moulder. It is understood whenever you say on the same 
grounds that means all of the previous reasons stated by you in the 
course of your testimony. 

Mr. Arens. Has the Communist Party ever given you recommenda- 
tions of persons to hire or persons not to hire ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Steinberg. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I want this record to be clear on one question I believe 
we covered before, but which I want to repeat so that the record is clear. 

Sir, are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Steinberg. I have stated my answers and I am sure the com- 
mittee does not want me to repeat them. I have stated my reasons 
for not answering, and I am sure the committee does not want me to 
repeat them. I feel my privileges of free speech are inviolate 

Mr. Arens. Are you invoking those provisions of the fifth amend- 
ment to the question : Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Steinberg. I do not. 

Mr. Arens. Do you refuse to answer the question ? 

Mr. Steinberg. I do. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully request the witness be directed and 
ordered to answer the question, and if he wants me to, I will again 
explain the legislative purpose and the like. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the 
question. 

Mr. Steinberg. I understand. My answer remains the sanie. 

Mr. Moulder. You are not requesting counsel for additional in- 
formation ? 

Mr. Steinberg. No, I want a smoke. 

Mr. Moulder. You say you are not asserting any of the provisions 
under the first and fifth amendments of the Constitution ? 

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, my free association and my free speech. I 
felt that my privileges of free association and free speech under the 
first amendment were being violated. 

Mr. Moulder. They were clearly stated by you in your response for 
refusing to answer, is that correct, but you are not claiming under 
the fifth amendment? 

Mr. Steinberg. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. I suggest that would conclude the staff interrogation. 

Mr. Moulder. Tlie committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes. 



COMMUNISM EST THE NEW YORK AREA 2565 

(Brief recess.) 

Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order. 

Mr. Aeens. Will Paul Villard kindly come forward ? 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which 
you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Villard. I do. 

TESTIMONY OP PAUL VILLAED, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
VICTOR RABINOWITZ 

Mr. Aeens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and 
occupation. 

Mr. Villard. Paul Villard, 245 W. 104th, New York, musician and 
singer. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing in response to a subpena which 
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities ? 

Mr. Villard. I am. 

Mr. Akens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Villard. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. Rabinowitz. Victor Rabinowitz, 25 Broad Street, New York 
City. 

Mr. Arens. Are you employed, Mr. Villard ? 

Mr. Villard. I am unemployed at the present time. 

Mr. Akens. Where were you last employed ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Villard. I do free-lance work and have not had regular em- 
ployment. 

Mr. Arens. What type of free-lance work ? 

Mr. Villard. Musician and singer. 

Mr. Arens. Wlien were you last employed ? 

(The witness conferred with his comisel.) 

Mr. Villard. I decline to answer that question on the ground of 
the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Do you likewise decline to answer where you were 
last employed ? 

Mr. Villard. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. I am trying to abbreviate an interrogation that could 
last extensively. 

Have you permitted your name and talents to be used for Com- 
munist causes and Communist enterprises? 

Mr. Villard. This question inquires into my private beliefs and 
political association and, therefore, I decline to answer on the basis 
of the first amendment. I further decline, claiming the honorable 
privilege of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Have you signed a nominating petition for the Com- 
munist Party in New York ? 



28128 — 58 7 



2566 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. ViLLAKu. I decline to answer on the previous grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Villard, are you now a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Villard. I decline to answer on the previous grounds. 

Mr. Akens. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the interroga- 
tion of this witness. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Richard Sasuly. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you 
are about to give to this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Sasut.t. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF EICHARD SASULY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
VICTOR RABINOWITZ 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Sasuly. My name is Richard Sasuly. I live at 232 East 36t]i 
Street, New York City. I am a writer. 

Mr. Arens. For purposes of identification, have you been known 
under any other name? 

Mr. Sasuly. Some year and a half ago, Counsel, when you asked 
mo that question in executive session, I refused to answer it. I have. 
I do not think it has become more germane in the time gone by. 

Mr. Arens. Why do you refuse to answer ? 

Mr. Sasuly. I think it is of no possible concern to you, it is of no 
public concern, and I decline to answer on the basis of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been known by the name of Alex Furth ? 

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. What was the name under which you were born ? 

Mr. Sasuly. The name I gave to you. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which 
was served on you by the House Committee on Un-American Activi- 
ties? 

Mr. Sasuly. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel? 

Mr. Sasuly. I am. 

Mr. Arens. (Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. Rabinowitz. Victor Rabinowitz, 25 Broad Street. 

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ? 

Mr. Sasuly. That is a question you asked a year and a half ago. 
I can hardly believe that you have forgotten. It is a private mat- 
ter. I refused to answer on the ground stated. 

Mr. Moulder. So the record might be clear, when you say you 
decline to answer on the same ground for the reasons previously stated, 
do you intend to invoke your privilege under the first and fifth amend- 
ments every time you make that statement? 

Mr. Sasuly. I do. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for bringing it up. 

Mr. Arens. Where were you born ? 

Mr. Sasult. Washington, D. C. 

Mr. Arens. AVhen? 



COMMtJNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2567 

Mr. Sasult. December 14, 1913. 

Mr. Abens. a word about your education. 

Mr. Sasuly. The public schools in Washington, the University of 
Arizona. 

Mr. Arens. When did you complete your formal education ? 

Mr. Sasult. I went to the University of Arizona until 1935 and 
I did a year at Columbia University after that. 

Mr. Arens. Did you receive an M. A. at Columbia ? 

Mr. Sasult. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. What year? 

Mr. Sasult. 1936. 

Mr. Arens. Give us the principal employments you have had since 
you reached adulthood. 

Mr. Sasult. I will add to what I said before, Mr. Counsel, that none 
of my activities have been criminal or have been in any criminal area 
at any time under any circumstances. Other than that, I refuse to 
answer on the same grounds as I stated. 

Mr. Scherer. How can you invoke the fifth amendment ? You say 
none of your activities has involved anything of a criminal nature. 
How can you possibly say you refuse to answer on the ground that 
it might incriminate you ? 

I ask you to direct the witness to answer the question, Mr. Chairman, 
in view of his statement. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is so ordered and directed to answer the 
question. 

Mr. Sasult. It seems to me, sir, that there is a distinct possibility 
that answers here may be used for the basis of some unjustified prosecu- 
tion, and for that reason I stand on the ground I stated before. 

Mr. Scherer. That is not the law. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been employed by the Federal Government ? 

Mr. Sasult. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know Nathan Gregory Silvermaster ? 

Mr. Sasult. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. He was your boss at one time in the Federal Govern- 
ment. 

Mr. Sasult. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Can you help this committee with respect to any 
espionage activities engaged in by Nathan Gregory Silvermaster? 

Mr. Sasult. I made a blanket statement, sir, as to myself and my 
activities covering a lifetime. I am 44 years old. I am making no 
further statement as to any other individual. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Nathan Gregory Silver- 
master has engaged in espionage? 

Mr. Sasult. I would doubt it extremely, but I certainly do not 
know. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever applied for a United States passport? 

Mr. Sasult. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds stated 
before. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you told this committee 
while you are under oath whether you applied for a United States pass- 
port you might be supplying information which might be used against 
you in a criminal proceeding ? 

Mr. Sasult. If you are asking me if I can visualize how that would 
be done, I can visualize how such a prosecution could result. 



2568 COMMUNISM m the new tork area 

Mr. Arens. Did you in any passport application make a misrepre- 
sentation of fact ? 

Mr. Sasult. That goes to your previous question, and I decline to 
answer. 

Mr. Arens. Are you the author of a book entitled, "I. G. Farben" ? 

Mr. Sasult. I decline to answer on the same grounds stated. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a propagandist now for the Communist Party 
of the United States under the name of Alex Furth ? 

Mr. Sasult. I decline to answer on the same ground. 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, and ask you to affirm or 
deny the fact that you are right now a propagandist for the Com- 
munist conspiracy under the Communist Party. If it is not true, 
deny it while you are under oath. 

Mr. Sasult. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever served in the United States Army ? 

Mr. Sasult. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Arens. You were in the intelligence service of the United States 
Army, were you not ? 

Mr. Sasult. I decline to answer any details of my Army service. 
If it is really genuinely germane, you can find out from the United 
States Army. 

Mr. Scherer. I request that you direct the witness to answer the 
question as to whether or not he served in the intelligence division 
of the Army. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the 
question. 

Mr. Scherer. How could that possibly incriminate you ? 

Mr. Sasult. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer on the same 
grounds. I decline to answer on the same grounds specified before. 

Mr. Scherer. Do you mean to tell us that answering the question 
as to whether you served in the intelligence service of the United 
States Army might tend to incriminate you? How foolish can we 
get? 

Mr. Sasult. I do not believe that is foolish, I decline to answer on 
the grounds stated before. 

Mr. Arens. Did you engage in any illegal activities while you were 
in the intelligence service ? 

Mr. Sasult. Emphatically, no. I have already stated that. I have 
not engaged in any illegal activities at any time. 

Mr. Scherer. Then, again, I ask that you direct the witness to 
answer the question whether he was ever in the intelligence service 
of the United States Army. If he says he engaged in no illegal activi- 
ties, how can he possibly invoke the fifth amendment ? 

Mr. Moulder. You are directed and ordered then to answer the 
question by Congressman Scherer. 

Mr. Sasult. My answer to the Congressman is the same as before. 

Mr. Arens. Were you Chief of Intelligence and Liaison for the 
Finance Division of the United States Military Government? 

Mr. Sasult. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist conspiracy 
while you occupied that position ? 

Mr. Sasult. I decline to answer on the same groimd. 

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you a few thermofax ex- 
hibits. One is from the Daily People's World, August 23, 1948, re- 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2569 

view by Kichard Sasuly of a book which attacks the American Legion. 

Kindly look at that article as it is displayed to you and tell the 
committee while you are under oath whether you are the author of 
the article. 

Mr. Sasuly. On the basis of the same reasons which I stated to 
you before, Mr. Counsel, including the great lapse of time between 
when you first interrogated me and now, I decline to answer your 
question invoking the first, fifth, and sixth amendments of the Con- 
stitution. 

(Document marked "Sasuly Exhibit No. 1" and retained in commit- 
tee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Have you authored articles attacking congressional 
committees, not only the Committee on Un-American Activities which, 
of course, is attacked by all Communists, but other congressional com- 
mittees ? 

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you a thermof ax reproduc- 
tion of an article appearing in the Daily People's World, (March 19, 
1948), by Richard Sasuly, attacking various congressional commit- 
tees, including the Committee on Un-American Activities. 

Mr. Sasuly. Is there a question with that ? 

Mr. Arens. Did you author the article just displayed to you ? 

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer on the grounds stated, including 
the first, fifth, and sixth amendments. 

(Document marked "Sasuly Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. ScHERER. Do you Imow, Witness, when you wrote those articles, 
whether or not the readers of the articles knew that you were a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer that question. Congressman, on 
the same gTounds. 

Mr. ScHERER. Did you tell them that you were ? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Arens. Here is a thermofax copy of an article — New York 
World Telegram, August 4, 1948 — that prompts our interest in con- 
nection with espionage and espionage agents to which I should like to 
direct your attention. It is with reference to a man by the name of 
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster. 

Part of this article reads : 

Under the surveillance of FBI agents, she [Elizabeth Bentley] spent an evening 
with the Silvermasters and two guests, Richard and Elizabeth Sasuly. She 
[Elizabeth Bentley] reported to the FBI that Mr. Silvermaster was "very 
cagey" — 

and the like. 

Do you recall that evening referred to in this article when you were 
in session with Nathan Gregory Silvermaster and Elizabeth Bentley ? 

Look at the article and see if it refreshes your recollection and tell 
this committee whether or not that is a truthful recitation of the facts. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds 
already invoked here. 

(Document marked "Sasuly Exhibit No. 3," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 



2570 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. ScHEREK. I think the record should show who Elizabeth Bentley 
is. 

Mr, Arens. Elizabeth Bentley is a person who courageously 
served in the C 'Ommunist conspiracy at the behest of her Government 
and testified respecting this group which is so casually passed off to 
the American people as a political enterprise, but which in truth and 
fact, so the abundance of testimony says, is part and parcel of the 
international conspiracy. 

Have you been an author of a series of articles in the Daily People's 
World, and Our World? 

Would you kindly answer the question ? 

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Have you, over the course of the last 10 years, been one 
of the principal propaganda agents in the United States for the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Counsel, on the 
same grounds stated before. 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, that over the course of the 
last several years you have been one of the principal propaganda 
agents in the United States for the Communist Party under various 
pseudonyms. If that is not true, please deny it while you are under 
oath. 

Mr, Sasuly. For all of the reasons stated before this is a repeti- 
tion of the same questions asked me before and I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, as I have indicated here in the ques- 
tioning, we have a great number of exhibits, all of which might well 
be characterized as I have in a few instances in undertaking to elicit 
from the witness information as to his activities and participation in 
Communist propaganda. 

I would suggest that the remaining exhibits be retained in the 
committee files. 

In view of the fact that we have a number of other witnesses to be 
heard, I respectfully suggest we conclude the interrogation of this 
witness at this time. 

Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions. Governor Tuck ? 

Mr. Tuck. No, sir. 

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer ? 

Mr. Scherer. Witness, have you ever received any compensation 
directly or indirectly from the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer that, Congressman, on the same 
grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Scherer. Have you ever received any compensation directly or 
indirectly from the Soviet Union ? 

Mr. Sasuly. Congressman, I have told you several times in the 
course of this interrogation I have participated in no criminal activity 
of any kind whatsoever. Other than that, I am not going to answer 
questions as to the work I have done or why I have done it or under 
what circumstances. Therefore, I refuse to answer that question on 
the same grounds. 

Mr. Scherer. Let us ask specifically without any reference to any 
possible criminal activities, have you received any compensation, 
either directly or indirectly, from the Connnunist Party or from the 
Soviet Union for any of your writings ? 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2571 

Mr. Sasuly. For tlie reasons just stated, I refuse to answer that 
question. 

Mr. ScHERER. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Clifford Carpenter, kindly come forward. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly sw'ear that the testimony that you 
are about to give before this subcommitttee of the United States Con- 
gress will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God ? 

Mr. Carpenter. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF CLIFFORD CARPENTER 

Mr. Arens. Kindly idenify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Carpenter. My name is Clifford Carpenter. I live in New 
York City and I am an actor. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing before this committee today in re- 
sponse to a subpena served upon you by the Committee on Un-Amer- 
ican Activities? 

Mr. Carpenter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. You are not represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Carpenter. That is correct. 

^Ir, Arens. Under the rules of this conxinittee, you have the privi- 
lege of counsel. 

Mr. Carpenter. I know that. 

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ? 

Mr. Carpenter. I am an actor and I am in a play called Sunrise at 
Campobello. 

Mr. Arens. That is a play here ? 

Mr. Carpenter. Yes, in New York City. 

Mr. Arens. How long have you been so engaged ? 

Mr. Carpenter. Since the play opened. 

Mr. Arens. Wlien was that ? 

Mr. Carpenter. It opened the latter part of January in New York. 

Mr. Arens. "Wliat have been the principal employments you have 
had in the past few years ? 

Mr. Carpenter. I have been an actor in the theater, and in the last 
few years I worked practically not at all in radio and television. I 
used to do a lot in radio and television. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been working in the legitimate theater? 

Mr. Carpenter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a word or tvv^o about the places of 
your employment ? 

Mr. Carpenter. I was in the play. Inherit the Wind. 

Mr. Arens. Was that produced by Herman Shumlin ? 

Mr. Carpenter. Yes. I was in Caesar and Cleopatra, by George 
Bernard Shaw ; Eve of Saint Mark, by Maxwell Anderson. 

Mr. Arens. Does that cover the principal employments which you 
have had? 

Mr. Carpenter. I have been an actor for many, many years and 
I have been in many, many plays. 

Mr. Akens. Do you know a man by the name of Berthold Brecht ? 



2572 COMMXJNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Carpenter. I don't know him, but I know who he is. 

Mr. Arens. AVlio is he? 

Mr. Carpenter. He is a dramatist, author, and playwright. 

Mr. Arens. Where is he now ? 

Mr. Carpenter. I think he is dead. 

Mr. Arens. Did he go behind the Iron Curtain ? 

Mr. Carpenter. You know, anj-^ ansAvers that I can give you, sir, 
are purely what I have read in the newspapers or elsewhere. I don't 
have any personal knowledge of him. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been in acquaintance with him per- 
sonally? 

Mr. Carpenter. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Are you, sir, a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Carpenter, No. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Carpenter. I decline to answer, sir, and cite my rights and 
privileges under the first and fifth amendments to the Constitution, 

Mr. Arens, Have you been a member of the Communist Party 
since you received your subpena ? 

Mr. Carpenter. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party 
any time in the course of the last 5 years? 

Mr. Carpenter. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first 
and fifth. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party any 
time in the course of the last 3 years? 

Mr. Carpenter. No, sir. 

Mr, Arens, In the course of the last 4 years ? 

Mr, Carpenter, No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Are you presently under discipline in the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Carpenter. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens, Have you resigned from the Communist Party? 

Mr. Carpenter. That questions implies, sir, that I was a member 
of the Communist Party which, I think, is an assumption. 

Mr. Arens, Do you deny that you have been a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Carpenter. I say that I am not now a member of the Com- 
munist Party. 

Mr. Arens. Do you deny that you have been a member of the 
Communist Party? 

Mr. Carpenter. Mr. Arens, you just asked me if a certain number 
of years ago I was, 

Mr. Arens, I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or 
deny the fact, that you have been a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Carpenter. I decline on the previous grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest we conclude the staff interroga- 
tion of this witness. 

Mr. Moulder. You are excused as a witness. You may claim your 
attendance fee to which you are entitled as a witness, from Mr. Appell. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2573 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Leon Portnoy, kindly come forward, please. 

Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please. 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about 
to give before this subcommittee of the United States Congress will 
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God? 

Mr. PoRTNOT. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF LEON PORTNOY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
LEONARD BOUDIN 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and 
occupation. 

Mr. PoRTNOY. My name is Leon Portnoy. My address is 2511 
Avenue I, Brooklyn, N. Y. I am a music teacher. 

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ? 

Mr. Portnoy. I am self-employed. 

Mr. Arens. Is that the Parkway Music School Institute ? 

Mr. Portnoy. No ; that is my home address. 

Mr. Arens. Do you own and operate the Parkway Music School 
Institute ? 

Mr. Portnoy. At the executive hearing you asked me that ques- 
tion, and I declined to answer it. My reasons are the same at the 
present time. 

Mr. Arens. I do not have your counsel's appearance here. 

You are appearing in response to subpena served upon you by the 
Committee on Un-American Activities ? 

Mr. Portnoy. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by comisel ? 

Mr. Portnoy. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Coimsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. BouDiN. Leonard Boudin, New York City. That is sufficient 
identification for you, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Arens. I believe it is. 

Kindly tell us if you have been known by any name other than 
Portnoy. 

Mr. Portnoy. I must decline to answer that question for reasons 
I gave you at executive session. 

Mr. Arens. What were those reasons, please ? 

Mr. Portnoy. Well, this committee, in my opinion, lacks the juris- 
diction to ask such a question. It is not pertinent to your work. Also, 
imder the privileges and rights granted to me by the Constitution 
under the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you told this committee 
truthfully any other names under which you might have been known, 
you would be supplying information that could be used against you in 
a criminal proceeding? 

Mr. Portnoy. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully request that the witness be ordered and 
directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Portnoy. I decline to answer for the same reasons. 

Mr. Arens. We would like to display to you an advertisement 
under music schools. New York Teacher News, Parkway Institute and 
the like, vsdth Leon N . Portnoy, director. 



2574 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Kindly look at the advertisement and tell this committee while 
you are under oatli if tliat is a correct identification of yourself as 
director of that institute. 

Mr. PoRTNOY. New York Teacher News ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes. 

Mr. PoRTNOY. I decline to answer that question, sir, for the same 
reasons already given. 

(Document marked "Portnoy Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens, Have you ever served in the Armed Forces ? 

Mr. Portnoy. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever lived in Chicago ? 

Mr. Portnoy. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you suppose we have the wrong name here? We 
have the name of Leon Portnoy, Chicago, Army Air Force, as one 
who was petitioning against the indictment of the 12 Communist 
leaders. 

Mr. Portnoy. I gather your investigator erred on that. 

Mr. Arens. Look at this exhibit and tell us whether or not you are 
the Leon Portnoy who signed that open letter on behalf of the 12 
Communists. 

( The document was handed to the witness. ) 

(The witness conferred wdth his counsel.) 

Mr. Portnoy. This is bad work on the part of whoever did it. 

Mr. Arens. "We certainly apologize. 

Mr, ScHERER. I am not so sure. May I see it ? 

Were you ever in the Army Air Force ? 

Mr. Portnoy. No, sir. 

Mr. Scherer. You were not in the service ? 

Mr. Portnoy, No, 

Mr, Arens. Did you ever live at 2511 Avenue I ? 

Mr. Portnoy. I gave you that as my present address. 

Mr. Arens. We have liere a nominating petition on which appears 
the name Leon Portnoy, 2511 Avenue I. 

Kindly look at a reproduction of that petition and tell us whether 
that truly and correctly represents your signature. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Portnoy. Yes, this is my signature, and I signed it. This is 
a petition for the American Labor Party, sir, which you failed to 
mention for tlie press. 

(Document marked "Portnoy Exliibit No. 2" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Afr. Arens. Are yon now a member of the Communist Pait}'^? 

Mr. Portnoy. I decline to answer that, sir, for the same reasons. 

Mr. Arenk. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff inter- 
I'ogation of this witness. 

Mr. MoiJLnER, The witness is excused. We will recess until 1 : 30 
p. m, 

(Whereupon, at 12 : 30 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene 
at 1 : 30 p. m. the same day.) 



COMMUNISM EST THE NEW YORK AREA 2575 

AFTERNOON SESSION, THURSDAY, JUNE 19, 1958 

Mr. Moulder. The conunittee will be in order. 

Call your next witness, please. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Horace Grenell. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give before this subcommittee of the United States Congress 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so lielp 
you God? 

Mr. Grenell. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF HORACE GRENELL, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

LEONARD BOUDIN 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Grenell. My name is Horace Grenell. I live at 562 Irving 
Terrace, South Orange, N. J. 

As to occupation, I must decline to answer for the following rea- 
son : Firstly, because of the lack of jurisdiction 

Mr. Moulder. Is there any question pending ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, his occupation. 

Mr. Grenell. Lack of jurisdiction of the committee and the vague- 
ness of its enabling resolution under tlie Watkins decision of the 
United States Supreme Court. 

Secondly, the question is not pertinent to any matter lawfully 
within the committee's jurisdiction. Then, by reason of my rights 
mider the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States 
and by reason of my constitutional privilege under the fifth amend- 
ment to the Constitution of the United States, which has been affirmed 
by the Supreme Court of the United States; and, lastly, because — 
and I feel strongly about this — there can be no legislative purpose 
served since I have already testified before this committee in execu- 
tive session. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena 
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-Ameri- 
can Activities? 

Mr. Grenell. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Grenell. I have not quite finished with all of my reservations 
about the committee. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Grenell. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself for the record? 

Mr. BouDiN. Leonard Boudin, New York City. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Grenell, are you the president of Young People's 
Records ? 

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer for all the reasons previ- 
ously stated. 



2576 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny 
the fact, that you are president of Young People's Eecords. "Would 
you kindly either affirm or deny that ? 

Mr. Grenell. I decline to answer for the same reasons. May I have 
a moment ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. We would like to display to you a certificate of incor- 
poration of the Abbey Record Manufacturing Co., Inc., in New Jersey 
in which are listed the directors and principal officei's of this cor- 
poration. 

I should like to ask you as we display it to you, whether or not you 
are one of the principal operators of the Abbey Record Manufactur- 
ing Co. in New Jersey. 

(A document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

(Document marked "Grenell Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Boris Morros, who has been a counterspy for the 
United States Government, serving this country, has given us in- 
formation to the effect that some of the fronts for Communist machina- 
tions and operations in the United States have been certain record 
companies, including one that he knew about specifically. 

Tell us, if you please, sir, whether or not the Abbey Record Manu- 
f acting Co. and its operation is a front for the Communist Party. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Does the Abbey Record Manufacturing Co. have any 
agents located outside the United States ? 

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer for the previously stated 
grounds. 

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you another exhibit, an 
article appearing in reference to Young People's Records, in which 
you are identified here as Horace Grenell, president of Young People's 
Records and who, according to the article, "will lead a workshop 
course in Creating Music" offered mider the auspices of the Jefferson 
School of Social Science. 

Kindly look at this article and tell us whether you are correctly and 
truly characterized there as president of that organization ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer tor the same grounds. 

(Document marked "Grenell Exhibit No. 2" and retained in com- 
mittee files. ) 

Mr. Arens. Have you been director of the Jefferson Chorus ? 

Mr. Grenell. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Have you taught in the Jefferson School of Social 
Science ? 

Mr. Greenell. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Moulder. In order that the record may properly reflect your 
reasons for declining to answer, do I understand when you say you 
decline to answer on the same grounds that you are invoking the priv- 
ileges provided for under the first and fifth amendments ? 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2577 

Mr. Grenell. I have answered and declined to answer on those 
grounds, plus the other 3 grounds which I also enumerated at the 
beginning — all 5 grounds. 

Mr. Moulder. When you say on the same grounds, you are invok- 
ing all of those privileges under the Constitution, as well as the other 
reasons stated ? 

Mr. Grenell. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Have you petitioned the Federal Communications Com- 
mission in Washington for an FM broadcasting license on behalf of 
the Peoples Radio Foundation, Inc. ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer on the same ground as pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Abens. I display to you, sir, a reproduction of a letter which 
was signed by yourself, addressed to the Federal Communications 
Commission petitioning for an FM license for the Peoples Radio 
Foundation, Inc. 

Kindly examine that and tell the coimnittee whether or not you 
afiixed your signature to that document or to a document of which 
that is a reproduction. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. We do have an original with us. The Thermof ax, un- 
fortunately, does not reproduce some types of ink. I wonder if that 
would refresh your recollection. Would you kindly tell us if it does ? 

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer on previously stated 
grounds. 

(Document marked "Grenell Exhibit No. 3" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the board of directors of 
People's Songs ? 

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. In the course of the last several years, have you lent 
your name and your prestige as a person in the entertainment field 
and as a musician and as an instructor in music, to Commmiist causes 
and enterprises ? 

Mr. Boudin. Could we have the question repeated ? 

(The pending question was read by the reporter.) 

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer on all the grounds previ- 
ously stated. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now, this minute, a member of the Communist 
Party ? 

Mr. Grenell. I must declme to answer on the grounds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will conclude 
the staff interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. ScHERER. Wliere do you live now, Mr. Grenell ? 

Mr. Grenell. As I previously stated, sir, I live in South Orange, 

Mr. Scherer. What is the address ? 
Mr. Grenell. 562 Irvine: Terrace. 



2578 COMMUNISM m the new york area 

Mr. ScHERER. Is that the same address given by the Horace Grenell 
who is one of the incorporators in this Aobey Record Manufacturing 
Co.? 

How long have you known Norman B. Jacobowitz ? 

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer, sir, for the reasons previ- 
ously stated. 

Mr. ScHERER. Do you know him to be a member of the party ? Is 
that the reason you are refusing to answer ? 

Mr. Grenell. I am sorry to say, but I must decline as before. 

Mr. ScHERER. What about David Foxman ? 

Mr. Grenell. I also decline to answer, sir. 

Mr. Scherer. Ben Goldman, do you know him ? 

Mr. Grenell. For similar reasons, I must decline to answer. 

Mr. Scherer. Charles T. Baum, Jr. ? 

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Scherer. Do you know James A. Prato ? 

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Scherer. And Murray J. Watter ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer for the same grounds. 

Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Moulder. I have this question : I did not miderstand what your 
present employment was or did you decline to answer that ? 

Mr. Grenell. I declined to answer, sir. 

Mr. Scherer. I think you should direct the witness, Mr. Chairman, 
and I ask that you so direct the witness, to tell us what his present 
occupation is. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question. 

(The witness conferred w ith his counsel.) 

Mr. Grenell. Again, I must decline for the reasons previously 
stated. 

Mr. Moulder. You do have a financial income; do you not? Do 
you receive a salary ? Are you on a salary ? 

Mr. Grenell. I guess for the same five reasons, I must decline to 
answer the question. 

Mr. Scherer. Do you get any money from the Communist Party 
now ? Do you have any income, directly or indirectly ? 

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Scherer. Are you engaged in any illegal activity at the pres- 
ent time ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Grenell. Let me say quite strongly, sir, in answer to that ques- 
tion, and I think I understand why you ask 

Mr. Scherer. You refuse to answer now because it might incrimi- 
nate you? I want to know if you are engaged in any illegal activity. 

Mr. Grenell. I w^ant to say very strongly that in no way, in any 
possible way, am I engaged in any illegal or criminal activity of any 
kind. 

Mr. Scherer. In view of his answer, then I ask again, Mr. Chair- 
man, that you direct the witness to answer the question as to his 
present employment. If he is not engaged in any illegal activity, 
how can he possibly say that to tell us that would incriminate him? 

Mr. jNfouuDER. The witness is directed to answer the question. 

(The wif;ness conferred with his counsel.) 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2579 

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer for the same five reasons 
previously given, 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Irwin Silber, kindly come forward, please. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which 
you are about to give before this subcommittee of the United States 
Congress will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Silber. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF IRWIN SILBER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
BERNARD JAFFE 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, resideaice, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Silber. My name is Irwin Silber. I reside at 504 Grand Street, 
New York City. I am a writer, editor, publicist. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Silber, in response to a 
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on 
Un-American Activities ? 

Mr. Silber. That is true. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Silber. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself for the 
record ? 

Mr. Jaffe. Bernard Jaffe, 135 Broadway, New York. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been known by any name other than Irwin 
Silber? 

Mr. Silber. As I told you, I am a writer and writers frequently 
use pseudonymns. Occasionally, aside from writing material under 
a pen name, I have never been known under any other name, sir. 

Mr. Arens. What other names 

Mr. Silber. Would you explain the relevancy ? 

Mr. Arens. It is our information that you are a Conmiunist Party 
propagandist under a pen name. 

Now, kindly tell us what pen names you have used. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Silber. I will not deny or confirm that. I w^ould like to know 
how that applies to the purposes of the committee. 

Mr. Scherer. I think the counsel of this committee has explained 
to him why we want the information. He is a Communist propa- 
gandist using a pen name, and we have a right to know it, and I 
request you to direct the witness to answer the question. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Silber. Despite the fact that the question and the reason for 
the question have been explained to me, I still fail to see any proper 
legislative purpose being served by the question or by a possible an- 
swer to the question. 

Mr. Arens. Would it help you to say that we have legislation pend- 
ing before the committee to cope with propaganda? 

We think you are a Communist propagandist. 



2580 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. SiLBER. Since you phrase the question that way and base the 
assumption of a pen name on Communist propagandist, I consider 
that to be invading my privacy. 

You are questioning me about associations or articles of any kind 
that I may have or may not have written for political purposes. 
You say "Communist propaganda." 

Mr. Arens. The Commmiists constantly say that. Every Commu- 
nist propagandist, every time he gets the opportunity, tries to pervert 
a question relating to communism to one of thought control, one of 
political activity, trying to bamboozle the American people into be- 
lieving that the Communist Party is a political party, and you are 
doing that right now. 

I request, Mr. Chairman, that you direct and order the witness to 
answer the question. 

Mr. JMouLDER. The witness is so directed to answer the question. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. ScHERER. He has had ample time to answer the question. 

Mr. SiLBER. I have been directed to answer it, so I would like to 
explain my reasons for not answering it. They may not be well and 
sufficient but if you are satisfied with them 

Mr. ScHERER. We are not satisfied. You have had time to answer. 

Mr. SiLBER. I would like to state that I have not made it clear that 
I have not stated all of my reasons for refusing to answer this ques- 
tion. I have not invoked all of the reasons for refusing to answer 
that question. 

Mr. Arens. Go ahead and invoke your reasons. 

Mr. SiLBER. I refuse to answer the question on a number of grounds : 

First of all, I consider that, in an overall sense, the purpose of the 
committee's hearing, the inquiry, is illegitimate in the sense that an 
investigation into propaganda, as such, constitutes an investigation 
into political beliefs and ideas, which is clearly removed from the 
committee's jurisdiction by the United States Constitution and most 
specifically by the first amendment to the Bill of Rights, in addition 
to which, I consider that it is an invasion of my own privacy as a 
writer, and a writer deals with ideals and specific ideals; and the 
fact that I may have used different pen names for different purposes 
clearly can have no bearing on any possible legitimate constitutional 
legislation which this committee can pass, in addition to which, since 
the q^uestion was phrased in such a way that it related to my possible 
political beliefs and associations, I consider that the question, there- 
fore, violates my own personal rights under the first amendment to 
the Constitution, violating my freedom of speech and assembly and, 
therefore, I cannot answer the question. 

Mr. Arens. You are not invoking the fifth amendment ? 

Mr. SiLBER. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. SiLBER. I just gave you a rather long recitation of my reason 
for not answering the last question. I would not like to bore you 
again. The answer to the question you just asked would be substan- 
tially the same answer. To summarize it briefly, your question related 
to my political activities and associations and you cannot possibly 
ask me that question. Therefore, I refuse to answer it. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2581 

Mr. Arens. Do you invoke the fifth amendment privileges against 
self-incrimination in response to the question which is outstanding, 
namely, are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. SiLBER, I have great admiration for the fifth amendment of 
the Constitution, and I do feel that anyone who invokes the fifth 
amendment has a shadow cast upon him. However, there is a public 
recognition, however, that the fifth amendment admits some guilt on 
the part of the person using the fifth amendment. This is not true in 
my case, and I do not feel it is necessarily true in the case of people 
invoking the fifth amendment. However, for that reason, I choose not 
to invoke the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. We want you to tell us whether or not you are now 
a member of the Communist Party, because our information is that 
in the recent past you have been a member of the Communist Party 
and a propagandist for the Communist Party, Avriting tremendous 
amounts of Communist propaganda for Communist publications and 
non-Communist publications. 

This committee has pending before it legislative proposals which 
undertake to cope with Communist propaganda. Now, we want to 
know whether you are a Communist in order to elicit information 
from you as a Communist. The committee can then use your fund 
of information in appraising new or remedial proposals for legis- 
lation. 

With that explanation, I respectfully suggest at this time, so the 
record can be clear, the chairman order and direct you to answer 
the question. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the 
question. 

Mr. SiLBER. Since you raise the question of legislation pending, 
would you mind referring me to the specific legislation that the com- 
mittee is referring to ? 

Mr. Moulder. That is not necessary. The record sliows what legis- 
lation is pending, and you have been advised and informed by counsel 
the legislation which is before the committee for consideration by the 
committee and which will be reported to Congress for its action. 

Mr. SiLBER. I asked for two reasons, sir. 

First, I would really like to know what possible legislation would 
cover this area. 

Mr. Arens. Legislation is pending before the committee with refer- 
ence to Communist propaganda, as well as suggestions not yet in 
actual bill form, which undertakes to require a true labeling of Com- 
munist publications. 

The Internal Security Act, for example, requires certain Commu- 
nist publications, after the Communist Party itself is registered or in 
default of registration, to be labeled as Communist. 

The Foreign Agents Registration Act has provisions relating to 
labeling of Communist publications. 

Believe me, sir, we are sincere and in earnest in our endeavor to 
develop factual information for the purpose of devising legislation to 
cope with this menace of communism, which the best experts in the 
United States, undercover agents in the conspiracy, tell us is a greater 
menace today than ever before. 

28123—58 8 



2582 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. SiLBER, I do not question your sincerity. I hope you do not 
get that impression. 

Mr. Arens. Then kindly answer the question. 

Mr. SiLBER. Once again, for the reasons I have ah-eady stated— and 
I think I have made them clear — and I may say in this connection 
that I also rest myself on the majority of the Supreme Court this past 
Monday in the Supreme Court case in which Justice Douglas said, 
"An inquiry into political beliefs is unconstitutional." 

Mr. Arens. We want to know whether you are now a member of 
the Communist Party, and if that is political belief and political asso- 
ciation, then our major premise is actually w^rong. 

Mr. SiLBER. I disagree wnth your premise. 

Mr. Arens. Are you noAv a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. SiLBER. I still refuse to answer the question on the grounds I 
have previously answered. 

Mr, Arens. You understand you have been ordered and directed 
and you understand you have been given an extensive explanation? 

Mr. SiLBER. Yes, but it does not satisfy me. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us where you are employed. 

Mr. SiLBER. I am employed by Avon Publications. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ? 

Mr. SiLBER. Publicist, publicity director. 

Mr. Arens. Where is that employment? 

Mr. SiLBER. 575 Madison Avenue, 

Mr. Arens. How long has that employment endured ? 

Mr. SiLBER, About 4 months, 

Mr. Arens, What was your employment immediately prior to your 
present employment ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel,) 

Mr. SiLBER. Sir, I hope I do not sound redundant or anything, 
but could you make clear the purpose of that question ? 

Mr. Arens, Yes, sir. It is our information that you are a Com- 
munist propagandist. We want to know where you have been em- 
ployed to ascertain what you have done in this field of Communist 
propaganda, concerning which this committee has a direct mandate 
from the Congress to develop information. 

Mr. SiLBER. Over the past number of years, I have had a good deal 
of different types of employment. Some of it may fall within the 
range of this committee and some of it may not, and I hesitate, frankly, 
to bring in the names of employers who have absolutely no connection 
with this, 

Mr. Arens, We are not asking you to do that. Have you been con- 
nected with the American Folksay Group ? 

Mr, SiLBER, Yes, sir, 

Mr, Arens, In what capacity ? 

Mr, SiLBER, This is many years ago, I was an official of the group, 
I don't remember the exact title, frankly. 

Mr, Arens, How long ago was it ? 

Mr, SiLBER, At least 10 years, 

Mr, Arens. What post did you have ? 

Mr. SiLBER. As I say, I do not remember the exact title. 

Mr. Arens. Were you the director? 

Mr. SiLBER. I was one of the principal people in it. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been connected with People's Songs? 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2583 

Mr. SiLBER. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ? 

Mr. SiLBER. I was the executive director of People's Songs. 

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time were you the executive direc- 
tor of People's Songs ? 

Mr. SiLBER. A little less than 2 years. 

Mr. Arens. When? 

Mr. SiLBER. From 1947 to early 1949. 

Mr. ScHERER. Counsel, I think while you are asking about these 
organizations, you should state for the record whether or not they 
have been cited. 

Mr. Arens. People's Songs has been cited. 

Mr. SiLBER. Could you tell me, since the question has been raised, 
could you tell me the manner in which it was cited ? I never had any 
official information along those lines. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell will have that information for us. 

Who were the other officers of People's Songs when you were con- 
nected with the organization ? 

Mr. SiLBER. It was 8 years ago, sir, and I was with it for only a 
year and a half. I assume — you correct me if I am wrong — that the 
names of the officers appeared in the People's Song. If you have 
them there and it will refresh my memory, I will identify them. 

Mr. Arens. Was Pete Seeger connected with People's Songs while 
you were there ? 

Mr. SiLBER. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ? 

Mr. SiLBER. I don't remember his exact title. 

Mr. Arens. Do you remember whether or not he was a member 
of the Communist Party when he was connected with People's Songs? 

Mr. SiLBER. I must again return to the position I took earlier on 
that because I consider, despite what you have said to me, that this 
constitutes questions in the area of political belief and association 
and I cannot answer it about myself or anybody else. 

Mr. ScHERER. Do we understand that you refuse to answer for the 
reasons you have given ? 

Mr. SiLBER. Yes, primarily the first amendment to the Constitu- 
tion. I have also mentioned that I feel that the inquiry is irrelevant 
and I feel that this particular question is irrelevant because I do not 
see how any possible mentioning of anybody else's political beliefs 
can affect pending legislation. 

Mr. Arens. We differ on this "i^olitical beliefs." The Congress has 
found through extensive investigation that the Communist Party 
has a facade that it works behind. It purports to be a political or- 
ganization when, in fact, it is a conspiracy. 

Were you one of the promoters of the Communist peace petitions 
which they were circulating here just a few years ago ? 

Mr. SiLBER. I do not know what a Communist peace petition is. 

Mr. Arens. I would like to display to you, if you please, a photo- 
static reproduction of an article entitled "New Peace Petition Song 
at 'One World' Hootenanny." 

Put my name down, brother. 
Where do I sign? 

I'm gonna join the fight for peace, 
Right down the line. 



2584 COMIVIUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, 

If you don't sign up, the world goes bust, 

So I'm gonna put my name down. 

At the end of the article it states that reserved seats for perform- 
ances are available at the Workers' Bookshop, the Jefferson Bookshop, 
and at People's Artists. 

Kindly look at this article which Mr. Appell will now display to 
you and tell us whether or not you authored that particular song 
and lent your talents as a musician, song writer, and entertainer to 
that enterprise. 

Mr. SiLBER. I find it hard to believe that you are interested in my 
songwriting abilities. 

Mr. Arens. You know we are not interested in that. Do not per- 
vert the issues. We are interested in whether you, as a Communist, 
used your talents on behalf of the Communist conspiracy in the United 
States and its front groups. We know — and those who have investi- 
gated it know — that the Communists have been promoting front 
groups. We have identified, on the basis of testimony under oath, 
600 organizations functioning in the United States today. 

Kindly answer the question. Did you author that song and did you 
author that song as part of deliberate activities to promote Communist 
peace-drive activities in the United States? 

Mr. SiLBER. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that there are so many 
assumptions in this question that even if I were willing to answer the 
question in terms of fact, they are controversial areas. 

Mr. Arens. Did you author the song ? 

Mr. SiLBER. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Arens. Did you author it in connection with a Communist 
enterprise ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. SiLBER. Once you make that political characterization of the 
enterprise, I do not see how I can answer it. I assure you when I 
wrote this song I believed it, and at nobody's behest. I wrote it 
because I thought it was worthwhile. 

Mr. Arens. Did you intend for it to be used in a Communist 
enterprise and only for a Communist cause? 

Mr. SiLBER. When you say "Communist enterprise" and "Commu- 
nist cause," you not only assume something which may not be proper 
but you enter the area of political belief and association. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the 
question. 

Mr. SiLBER. Such a question invades my political rights. Also, I 
consider the question irrelevant to any possible legitimate purpose of 
the Congress and, therefore, I respectfully refuse to answer the 
question. 

Mr. Arens. Did you receive compensation for writing that song? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. SiLBER. No, sir. 

(Document marked "Silber Exhibit No. 1" and retained in commit- 
tee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Have you been an instructor at the Jefferson School of 
Social Science? 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2585 

Mr. SiLBER. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. When ? 

Mr. SiLBER. I do not remember. It was for such a period of time, 
I would say 6 or 7 years ago. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat did you instruct ? 

Mr. SiLBER. I gave two classes at the Jefferson School. I con- 
ducted a course in American folk music and I gave a course in tech- 
niques of square dance calling. 

Mr. Arens. Did you receive compensation for that service? 

Mr. SiLBER. I don't remember ; probably not. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know at the time that you were instructing in 
an organization which was controlled by the Communist Party ? 

Mr. SiLBER. No, I don't. I never knew that and I still don't. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist while you were instructing at 
the Jefferson School ? 

Mr, SiLBER. Sir, we keep getting back to the same question, and the 
basis for my refusal to answer remains the same. I cannot answer 
that question and I assure you in all honesty that my refusal does not 
necessarily mean that if I were free to answer, that it would be yes 
or no. 

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, based upon investigative 
reports of this committee that you were a Communist while you were 
instructing at the Jefferson School of Social Science. 

If that is not true, deny it while you are under oath. 

Mr. SiLBER. The answer to that question is the same answer I 
w^ould give you if you asked me if I am a member of the Democratic 
Party or Republican Party. 

Mr. Arens. You are not suggesting that the Democratic or Re- 
publican Party is controlled by a conspiracy of Moscow, are you? 

Mr. SiLBER. I am not making any such suggestion about anybody. 

Mr. Arens. Have you, over the course of the last 10 years, been 
actively engaged in using your talents in the music, songwriting field 
and in the instructing field for the purpose of promoting Com- 
munist causes and enterprises in the United States ? 

Mr. SiLBER. Again, there are a number of assumptions in the ques- 
tion and while I certainly think it is clear to the committee that I 
have no objection to discussing the work and the activities that I have 
engaged in, once you throw in the term "Communist propaganda" 
as an assumption for my activity, there is no possible way. 

Mr. Scherer. Is he wrong in throwing it in ? 

Mr. Selber. He is wrong because he has no right to. 

Mr. Scherer. Is that assumption correct ? 

Mr. SiLBER. I can neither affirm nor deny it because it is an im- 
proper question. 

Mr. Scherer. Assuming he is right, what would your answer 
be? 

Mr. SiLBER. If I answered the question and even if my answer 
were "No," it would give legitimacy to the question and I cannot 
do it. 

Mr. Scherer. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness be ordered 
and directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Moulder. That is not sufficient reason. You are directed to 
answer the question. 



2586 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. SiLBER. I decline to answer in connection witli all questions con- 
cerning political beliefs and associations. 

Mr. Arexs. Does the record reflect that I asked you about pres- 
ent membership in the Communist Party ? 

Mr. SiLBER. I believe so. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, as in other instances, I could go into 
a vast number of particular instances, all of which I have tried to 
simimarize here in this one general question to the witness which 
has elicited no substantial information; therefore, I respectfully sug- 
gest that we conclude the staff interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Moulder. Based upon your reasons for refusing to answer, do 
you have any information or knowledge concerning subversive activi- 
ties within the Communist Party which would not tend to incrimin- 
ate you or subject you to criminal prosecution ? 

Mr. SiLBER. Sir, I have no knowledge of any activity in any politi- 
cal party that Avould subject me to possible criminal prosecution. 

Mr. Moulder. Then, do you have any information or knowledge 
concerning any subversive activities within the Communist Party? 

Mr. SiLBER. I would not like to engage in a debate, sir; but the 
term "subversive" is so general, it might mean a different thing to 
you than it would mean to me. 

Mr. Moulder. I think the meaning of that word is very clear. 

Mr. SiLBER. By "subversive" do you mean that which is opposed to 
our form of government and expects to change it illegally? 

Mr. Moulder. Yes. 

Mr. SiLBER. As I said, I know of nothing, criminal or illegal in my 
own past or in the past of others, that I could possibly testify about. 
I have no knowledge of any illegal activity. 

Mr. Moulder. That is, what you consider illegal ? 

Mr. SiLBER. That is, to the best of my knowledge, naturally. 

Mr, Moulder. In the event our country should become involved in 
Avar, conflict of war, with the Soviet Union, would you be loyal to 
your country and offer to serve it and be willing to serve in a conflict 
with that country ? 

Mr, SiLBER. Yes, sir, I would. 

May I ask the proper procedure? I have prepared here a state- 
ment to give to the press. Is it legitimate for me to give it to the 
press ? 

Mr. Arens. Before you do so, I would like to ask one question: 
You recognize that you are under oath now. You recognize, also, that 
when I ask you the question: Are you now a member of the Com- 
munist Party, that if you make a misstatement of a material fact 
you can be subject to perjury, do you not? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. SiLBER. My lawyer advises me that it depends on the ma- 
teriality of the question. 

Mr. Arens. You recognize, too, that when you hand a document 
to the press, that document is not under oath and you cannot be sub- 
ject to perjury prosecution ? I have not seen your statement. I want 
to be sure you recognize it. 

Since we are on this issue, do you intend in the near future to tell 
the people around this community that you are not a Communist, that 
"I was not going to tell the witch-hunting, red-baiting " 

Mr. SiLBER. The characterization is yours. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2587 

Mr. Arens. Do ^^ou intend to do that ? 

Mr. SiLBER. This committee has no ri^ht to ask me my politics. I 
have the right to discuss my politics with anyone I choose. It can 
be with the press or with individuals, but I cannot be compelled to 
discuss my politics. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you consider the Communist Party a political 
party ? 

Mr. SiLBER. Obviously, I do. 

Mr. ScHERER. In the statement that you are §oing to give to the 
press, do you say anything about your membership in the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. SiLBER. I do not think it is proper for this committee to inquire 
into the contents of my statement to the press. 

Mr. ScHERER. Do you really believe that ? 

jNIr. SiLBER. Yes. 

Mr. ScHERER. Will you say now under oath that the statement you 
are going to give to the press is true ? 

Mr. SiLBER. Yes, sir. 

(The statement referred to follows :) 

Statement by Irwin Silbek 

In testimony before the House Committee on Un-American Activities today, I 
have declined to answer questions concerning political beliefs and associations. 
I have taken this position in tlie belief that the defense of our Constitution and 
the institutions of American democracy is the responsibility of every citizen, 
and that the provisions of the first amendment to our Constitution specifically 
enjoin Congress from legislating in the domain of free speech, press, and 
assembly. 

I believe that no committee of Congress has the right to conduct an inquiry 
into the political beliefs and associations of any individual, and that to answer 
such unconstitutional questions would make me a party to the violation of basic 
American liberties. 

I state this as a matter of deep political principle and, despite the fact that 
I am not a member of the Communist Party, I believe that every American has 
the right to belong to the political organization of his choice, including the 
Communist Party. 

I have refused to answer the questions cited above, believing that eternal vigi- 
lance for the rights of the individual is the price which every citizen must pay 
for his own liberty. 

Mr. Moulder. Are there any other questions ? 

The witness is excused. 

The committee will recess for a period of 5 minutes. 

(Brief recess.) 

Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order, please. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, there were two other witnesses who 
were scheduled to be here this afternoon. 

First was Mr. Curt Conway. On May 16, 1958, he was ordered by 
telegram to appear, under continuing authority of a subpena, on June 
18, 1958. 

Mr. Conway has failed to appear during the course of these pro- 
ceedings or by any device to notify the committee or its staff of his 
inability to appear. 

The next witness to l)e heard was Mr. Leo Shull. His counsel has 
informally advised us that Mr. Shull, although he was here in tlie 
courtroom a day or so ago, is not now available. 

Mr. GiTLiN. My name is Leo Gitlin, 565 Fifth Avenue. 



2588 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. ShuU was here Tuesday and Wednesday, both days, and he is 
suffering from anemia which apparently causes him exhaustion and 
the doctor put him to bed. I told him I wanted him here, but he said 
he could not be here. 

Mr. Arens. It is the recommendation of the staff, Mr. Chairman, 
that the subpena under which Mr. Shull was to appear, be continued 
by the chairman, subject to his appearance on arrangements by counsel 
and myself. 

Mr. Moulder. Without objection, it is so ordered. 

Mr. GiTLiN. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Arens. Under those circumstances, we have no further witnesses 
to be heard this afternoon. 

Mr. Moulder. In concluding the hearings here, the Chair desires to 
make a statement on which both members of the subcommittee have 
concurred with me in its preparation. 

In concluding the hearings, I should like to make a few brief 
observations. 

In the first place, may I say that these hearings have been only a 
sampling of a cross section of Communist activity in the entertainment 
field. It has not been our objective to hear all available witnesses or 
to conduct a searching investigation of all leads. 

Our work takes us into so many areas of Communist activity and to 
so many sections of the country that we cannot possibly do more 
than to develop information or patterns of activity for the purpose of 
establishing guidelines in our legislative endeavors to keep abreast of 
the constantly changing tactics of the Communist operations. 

Secondly, I should like to note that in these hearings we have devel- 
oped information which not only confirms factual material which has 
been developed by the committee elsewhere, but some new information 
which will be valuable to us in appraising several legislative proposals 
pending in the committee. 

This information includes data on the misuse of passports by Com- 
munists; the propaganda uses to which the talents of Communist 
entertainers are put ; the promotions of Communist fronts and Com- 
munist causes by actors and other performers who are Communists; 
and the devices by which one Communist aids and abets another Com- 
munist in his assignments, his employment, and his design. 

Much of the information has been of necessity developed by indi- 
rection, but in our investigative processes, we must be realistic and 
practical in appraising and piecing together bits of information from 
the testimony of witnesses who have been identified as Communists and 
who try to give us as little information as possible. 

Our task is not an easy one. The Communist operations in the 
United States today are deeper underground, have a more clever cam- 
ouflage, and are accordingly more difficult to trace. It is, nevertheless, 
a greater menace than ever before. 

One of the curious aspects of the Communist Party's operation in 
this country is the fact that it has succeeded in surrounding itself with 
a protective ring of apologists, sympathizers, and dupes who, though 
not themselves Communists, do the bidding of the party. 

We shall take back to Washington the transcript of the proceed- 
ings here and, at the earliest opportunity, go over the material witli 
our colleagues on the committee. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2589 

It is a source of satisfaction to those of us who serve on the com- 
mittee, that the principal security legislation of our Nation has been 
the direct result of the work of this committee, but our legislative 
activity in this field must continue as long as the menace of com- 
munism exists. 

I wish now to thank all who have cooperated with the committee 
during our hearings, including the Federal judge whose courtroom 
has been made available to us, the United States marshal, his deputies, 
the superintendent of this building, and the representatives of tlie 
press in their work of keeping the public informed of the proceed- 
ings of this committee. 

Governor Tuck, do you have any additional statement ? 

Mr. Tuck. I have nothing else to say. 

Mr. Moulder. Congressman Scherer ? 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I have no statement to make, but I 
would like to offer in evidence the statement referred to by Irwin 
Silber when he was on the stand a few minutes ago and which he dis- 
tributed to the press immediately following his departure from the 
stand. I ask that it be made a part of the record immediately fol- 
lowing his testimony. 

Mr. Moulder. The document referred to by counsel will be in- 
corporated into the record and included as part of the testimony of 
the person referred to by Congressman Scherer. 

(Seep. 2587.) 

Mr. Scherer. I might make this observation in connection with 
that statement. 

Although he refused to tell this committee whether he was a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party at the present moment or had ever been 
in the past, it should be noted that in his statement to the press he 
merely said, "I am not a member of the Communist Party." He does 
not say whether he was a member of the Communist Party this morn- 
ing, yesterday, or last week. 

Mr. Moulder. The committee will be adjourned. 

(Wliereupon, at 2:30 p. m., Thursday, June 19, 1958, the hearing 
was adjourned, subject to call of the Chair.) 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

(Entertainment) 



THURSDAY, MAY 8, 1958 

United States House of Kepeesentatives, 

Subcommittee of the 
Committee on Un-American Activities, 

New York, N. Y. 

EXECUTIVE session ^ 

A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met, 
pursuant to call, at 10 a. m., in room 129, Federal Courthouse, Foley 
Square, New York, N. Y., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder, chairman of 
the subcommittee, presiding. 

« * 4: « * <: * 

( The morning session was concluded at 12 : 05 p. m., whereupon a 
recess was taken until 1 : 15 p. m. the same day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

Committee members present : Representatives Bernard W. Kearney, 
of New York, presiding, and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio. 

Staff members present : Richard Arens, staff director, and Dolores 
Scotti, investigator. 

Mr. Kearney. The subcommittee will be in order. 

te it * * ie * ^ 

Mr. Aeens. Louis Solomon. 

Kindly raise your right hand and be sworn. 

Mr. Kearney. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to 
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God ? 

Mr. Solomon. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS SOLOMON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
LEONAED B. BOUDIN 

Mr. Arens. Have a seat, please, sir, and kindly identify yourself 
by name, residence, and occupation. 

Mr. Solomon. My name is Louis Solomon; I live at 226 West 70th 
Street. INIy occupation is that of a free lance writer. 

Mr. Arens. Would you spell tliat name, please ? 

Mr. Solomon. Solomon is S-o-l-o-m-o-n. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. I asked him how he spelled the name. 

^ Released by the eoiiimlttee and ordered to be printed. 

2591 



2592 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. BouDiN. I thought he had responded. It is S-o-l-o-m-o-n. 

Mr. Arens. I am a little uncertain here. Are you also Louis Sala- 
man? 

Mr. Solomon. Mr. Arens, I shall decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Raise your voice, please. 

Mr. Solomon. I shall decline to answer that. 

My voice is generally very loud so I have been cautioned to keep 
it down. I shall decline, Mr. Arens, to answer that question on the 
grounds that, according to my understanding of the rulings made by 
the highest court in the land, the question that the committee raises is 
not pertinent; that I question whether it is within the committee's 
jurisdiction; and on the gromids of the, first amendment to the Con- 
stitution, sir, and the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now, this minute, a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Solomon. I am not, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Solomon. Sir, on the grounds that I stated previously, I shall, 
with all due respect to the Congress of the United States, decline 
to answer this question. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party any 
time in the course of the last year ? 

Mr. Solomon. Sir, I think that is the same question. 

Mr. Arens. No, it is not. A year is not quite as long as forever. 
Have you been a member of the Communist Party any time in the 
course of the last year ? 

Mr. Solomon. My understanding of that, sir, is that essentially this 
is the same question. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party any 
time in the course of the last month ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Solomon. Will you forgive me a moment ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Solomon. Mr. Arens, sir, once again I shall, on the same 
grounds, decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party yesterday ? 

Mr. Solomon. Of course not, Mr. Arens ; but this is the same ques- 
tion, and I am refusing to answer any questions, declining respect- 
fully, may I say, since I respect the Congress of the United States. 

Mr. Arens. You said "of course not" yesterday. That is on this 
record under oath. 

Were you a member of the Communist Party at any time during the 
past week ? 

Mr. Solomon. Mr. Arens, I respect my oath and I have sworn to tell 
the truth and I shall continue to do that. 

Mr. Arens. Will you tell us whether or not you were a member of 
the Communist Party during the course of the last week ? 

Mr. Solomon. Mr. Arens, I shall refuse to answer that question on 
the same grounds as previously stated. 

Mr. Arens. Are you presently under Communist Party discipline ? 



COMMTINISM IN THK NEW YORK AREA 2593 

Mr. Solomon. Mr. Arens, I don't understand that question actu- 
ally ; but if you are asking me am I now a member of the Communist 
Party, I am not, sir, and I explained that to you, I think. 

Mr. Arens. AVhere are you employed ? 

Mr. Solomon. At the moment I am not employed at all. 

Mr. Arens. "\'\liere were you last employed? 

Mr. Solomon. Mr. Arens, I shall decline to answer that question 
on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully request that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer that question. 

Mr. Kearney. The witness is directed to answer the counsel's ques- 
tion, but your name rings a bell. Have you been connected with the 
production of Wide Wide World ? 

Mr. Solomon. I shall, I am sorry, sir, decline to answer that ques- 
tion. 

Mr. Kearney. Do you consider that being connected with the pro- 
duction of Wide, Wide World would, by any stretch of the imagina- 
tion, consist of testimony against yourself? 

Mr. Solomon. Sir, I may not have made myself clear. I tried to 
be a law-abiding citizen, and my intent in refusing to answer the ques- 
tion is not limited. It has to do with the four grounds that I have 
previously stated. 

Mr. Kearney. Are you now connected with the production of Wide, 
Wide World? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Solomon. As I indicated, I am slightly confused by the ques- 
tion. I am not emploj^ed in the production of anything at this point. 

Mr. Kearney. Are you working with the television program 
known as Wide, Wide World ? Are you employed by that program ? 

Mr. Solomon. I answered that I was not. I am not at this point 
employed. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been employed by that program ? 

Mr. Solo^nion. I have, sir, declined to answer that question. 

Mr. Ke.\rney. Mr. Counsel, if you have no further questions, I will 
direct the witness to step aside, and continue the subpena that he is 
under for a public hearing the week of June 15. 

(Whereupon, at 3 p. m., Thursday, May 8, 1958, the subcommittee 
recessed. ) 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 
(Entertainment) 



MONDAY, APRIL 1, 1957 

United States House of Representatives, 

Subcommittee of the 
Committee on Un-American Activities, 

Washington^ D. 0. 
executive session ^ 

A subcoiTuiiittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met, 
pursuant to call, at 10 : 10 a. m., in room 226, Old House Office Build- 
ing, Hon. Clyde Doyle presiding. 

Committee members present : Representatives Clyde Doyle of Cali- 
fornia, and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio. 

Staff members present : Richard xirens, staff director, and Donald 
T. Appell, investigator. 

Mr. Arens. Will you stand while the chairman administers an 
oath to you ? 

Miss Grant. Yes. 

Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Miss Grant. I do. 

Mr. DoTLE. Thank you. Will you be seated by your counsel. 

TESTIMONY OF LEE GEANT (MANOFF), ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, LEONAKD B. BOUDIN 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc- 
cupation. 

Miss Grant. My name is Lee Grant. My residence is 444 Central 
Park West, and occupation, actress. 

Mr. Scherer. What is your occupation ? 

Miss Grant. Actress. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which 
was served on you by the House Committee on Un-American Activi- 
ties? 

Miss Grant. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Miss Grant. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Comisel, will you kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. BouDiN. T^onard B. Boudin, 25 Broad Street, New York 4, 
N.Y. 



^ Released by the committee and ordered to be printed. 

2595 



2596 COMMUNISM m the new york area 

Mr. Arens. Miss Grant, could you tell us your real name ? I take 
it that Lee Grant is a stage name. 

Miss Grant. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. And your real name, as distinguished from your staee 
name, is what? 

Miss Grant. I was born Lyova Rosenthal. 

Mr. Arens. And your married name ? 

Miss Grant. Lee Grant Manoff. 

Mr. Arens. For the purpose of identification, your husband's name, 
please ? 

Miss Grant. Arnold. 

Mr. Arens. Wliere were you born ? Also, when ? 

Miss Grant. New York City, October 31, 1926. 

Mr. Arens. Just a word, please, about your education ; just a thumb- 
nail sketch of your education. 

Miss Grant. Oh, high school and Julliard for a year, and that is all 
except for dramatic schools, the Neighborhood Plajdiouse, and so on. 

Mr. Arens. I did not get that. 

Miss Grant. High school and Julliard for a year, and that is all 
except for dramatic schools, the Neighborhood Playhouse, and so on. 

Mr. Arens. What engagements have you undertaken, or been in- 
volved in, in the course of the last few years as an actress? Give us 
the principal productions which you have been connected with in the 
last few years. 

Miss Grant. Hole in the Head. 

Mr. Arens. Give us a word of identification about this. 

Miss Grant. I am in it now. 

Mr. Arens. Wliere is it and what is it ? 

Miss Grant. It is a play on Broadway. Then the last one was 
Wedding Breakfast, a play on Broadway. Then Lo and Behold, play- 
ing on Broadway; Arms and the Man, on Broadway; and Detective 
Story, playing on Broadway and the picture; and that is the last 3 
years. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been engaged in the last few years in a play 
called Danger ? 

Miss Grant. It is a television show. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us a few of the television engagements in 
which you have performed in the last few years ? 

Miss Grant. In the last few years, there aren't very many television 
shows. I did about 2 years ago a Philco, and more recently I did a 
Pontiac, show. I can't remember all this. 

Mr. Arens. You don't remember the names ? 

Miss Grant. Playwrights 1956, that was one, and another was Al- 
coa — oh, Alcoa and previous to that in the last 3 or 4 years, I didn't 
do any television. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Miss Grant. I am not a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Commmiist Party ? 

Miss Grant. I refuse on the grounds of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a meniber of the Communist Party 1 year 
ago? 

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth 
amendment. 



COMMUNISM EST THE NEW YORK AREA 2597 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Part^/- at any 
time since you were served with your subpena to appear before this 
committee ? 

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer on the ground§ of the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Akens. Do you know a person by the name of Morris 
Carnovsky ? 

Miss Grant. Do I know such a person ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes. 

Miss Grant. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Morris Carnovsky is a 
member of the Communist Party ? 

Miss Grant. No. I do not. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Alan Manson ? 

Miss Grant. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not that person is a member 
of the Communist Party ? 

Miss Grant. No. I do not. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Lou Polan ? 

Miss Grant. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not that person is a member 
of the Communist Party ? i 

Miss Grant. No. I do not. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of John Randolph? 

Miss Grant. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he is a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Miss Grant. I do not. 

Mr. Arens. Or whether or not he has ever been a member of the 
Communist Party. Let me put it that way. 

Miss Grant. That is in relation to my past. I refuse to answer 
that. 

Mr. Scherer. What was the question ? 

Mr. Arens. It was with respect to her past. I should like to ask 
you for the record — I should have been asking you — whether you 
knew if these persons mentioned had ever been members of the Com- 
munist Party. 

Mr. BouDiN. Do you want to make it short ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes. 

Mr. BouDiN. The witness would have pleaded her privilege with 
respect to her past, with respect to all the prior people. 

Mr. Arens. That is fine. Do you know a person named Elliott 
Sullivan ? 

Miss Grant. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether Elliott Sullivan has ever been a 
member of the Communist Party ? 

Miss Grant. This is information that relates to my past, and I 
must invoke my privilege under the Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. Has your present employment been procured for you 
by a person known to you, at any time, to be a member of the Com- 
munist Party ? 

Miss Grant. Would you repeat that ? 

28123—58 9 



2598 COMMUNISM IX THE NEW YORK AREA 

Mr. Arens. Yes. Has your present employment been procured for 
you by a person known to you, at any time, to be a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Miss Grant.* My present employment ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, has it been procured, or facilitated in the procure- 
ment, by any person known to you to have been a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Miss Grant. You mean an agent? 

Mr. Arens. Yes. Where are you presently employed ? 

Miss Grant. WliereamI? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am. 

Miss Grant. I am employed in a play called Hole in the Head. 

Mr. Arens. Was that employment procured for you, or was the 
procurement facilitated for you, by any person known by you to be a 
Communist or at any time a Communist ? 

Miss Grant. No. 

Mr. Arens. Was your employment in the production Danger pro- 
cured for you by any person who, at any time, was known to you to 
have been a Communist ? 

Mr. BouDiN. Could I have a word with the witness? Will you 
excuse me a second, Mr. Congressman ? 

Mr. DoTLE. Yes. 

(Counsel conferred with the witness.) 

Mr. BouDiN. The answer with respect to that, and generally, would 
have been the same, namely, that Miss Grant got the job through the 
routine way and is not prepared to say who were and who were not 
members of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. Danger was a series of productions, was it not, or 
was it a single production ? 

Miss Grant. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Danger. 

Miss Grant. You want to know what Danger is ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am. 

Miss Grant. Do I answer this ? You don't know the nature of the 
television show ? 

Mr. Arens. No, I don't. At least this record doesn't reflect it. 

Miss Grant. Danger is like any other of the television shows that 
appears from week to week on a certain day. 

Mr. Arens. It is a serial ? 

Miss Grant. No, it is not a serial. It is a series, like Alcoa. 

Mr. Arens. It is a series then ? 

Miss Grant. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Which ran for how long? 

Mr. ScHERER. Who was it that played in that? I have forgotten. 

Miss Grant. There was no lead in Danger. 

Mr. ScHERER. A different cast ? 

Miss Grant. A new show every week like all these shows, Alcoa or 
Montgomery or Philco. 

Mr. ScHERER. Didn't you yourself play it regularly ? 

Miss Grant. No. 

Mr. Arens. Were you in just one show ? 

Miss Grant. No. 

Mr. Arens. Did you participate in more than one show ? 

Miss Grant. Yes. 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2599 

Mr. Arens. There were other actors and actresses who appeared in 
it more than once ? 

Miss Grant. Yes. You see in all these shows, such as Mr. Mont- 
gomery, for instance, likes an actor, and he finds in a certain particular 
play he played a father best, and another play he does the boy best, so 
then he will hire him once every 6 months, you know. 

Mr. Arens. But Mr. Montgomery didn't have anything to do with 
this series entitled "Danger" ? 

Miss Grant. No, I am giving you a going example. 

Mr. Arens. I just wanted the record to be clear that Mr. Mont- 
gomery had nothing to do with the series. 

Miss Grant. I see. 

Mr. Arens. Wlio engaged you for your performance in Danger? 

Miss GrxVnt. I want to ask my counsel something. 

Mr. Arens. Any time you have any doubt, go ahead and confer 
with Mr. Boudin. 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mr. BoxjDiN. Could we have the question repeated, Mr. Arens ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes. 

(Thereupon, the reporter read the pending question.) 

Mr. BouDiN. Now, could I have a moment with the witness again? 

Mr. DoTLE. Yes. 

(Counsel and the witness again confer.) 

Miss Grant. I decline to answ^er on the grounds of the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel. Miss Grant, that if you told this 
committee truthfully, while you are under oath, who engaged you for 
your performances in the production Danger, you would be sup- 
plying information which might be used against you in a criminal 
proceeding ? 

Miss Grant. I don't want to take the chance. It might. 

Mr. Arens. Were you at any time in the course of the last 3 years 
interviewed by Mr. John Cogley or any member of his staff with re- 
spect to so-called blacklisting ? 

Mr. BouDiN. Could I have a moment with the witness, please ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes. 

( Counsel confers with the witness.) 

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds of the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Boudin. Could it be understood that when the witness says she 
refuses to answer for the same reason, it is understood that she is 
invoking the fifth amendment ? 

Mr. Arens. For this hearing, but not in general. 

Do you honestly feel that if you told us here you had been 
interviewed in the last 3 years or so by a person representing Mr. John 
Cogley or Mr. John Cogley on the subject of blacklisting, you would 
be supplying information which might be used against you in a 
criminal proceeding? 

Miss Grant. It might. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Sidney Lumet ? 

Miss Grant. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Did he have anything to do with your appearances in 
Danji^er? 



2600 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 

Miss Grant, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of 
the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Aeens. Do you know whether or not Sidney Lumet has ever 
been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Are you presently under Communist Party discipline ? 

Miss Grant. I am not a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. Are you presently under Communist Party discipline ? 

Miss Grant. I am not. 

Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party discipline at any 
time since you received your subpena to appear before this committee ? 

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Miss Grant, what knowledge do you possess of an org- 
anization known as Stage for Action ? Is there, or has there been, such 
an organization known as Stage for Action ? 

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of 
the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been connected with an organization known 
as Stage for Action ? 

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the 
fifth amendmeiit. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected with an organization 
known as People's Songs ? 

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of 
the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of J. Edward Brom- 
berg? 

Miss Grant. Mr. Bromberg is dead. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by that name ? 

Miss Grant. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. What was the nature of your association with Mr. 
Bromberg? 

Miss Grant. I worked with him. 

Mr. Arens. Did you attend a session back in 1951 protesting ac- 
tivities by the Committee on Un-American Activities with reference 
to J. Edward Bromberg ? 

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Did you make a speech on the subiect of the Un-Ameri- 
can Activities Committee's investigation of J. Edward Bromberg in 
New York City at the Hotel Diplomat back in 1951 ? 

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of 
the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Have you, in the course of your professional career, 
let's say in the last few years, ever signed any statements for nn em- 
ployer or prospective employer covering the subject matter of mem- 
t3ership in the Communist Party? 



COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2601 

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of 
the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever signed a so-called loyalty oath as a pre- 
requisite to obtaining employment ? 

Miss Grant. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that would con- 
clude the staff interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Doyle. Do you have any questions ? 

Mr. SCHERER. No. 

Mr. Doyle. The committee is adjourned. 

(Thereupon, at 10 a. m., Monday, April 1, 1957, the committee 
stood adjourned, subject to the call of the Chair.) 



INDEX 



Individuaxs 

Page 

Anderson, Maxwell 2571 

Annenberg, Adelaide Klein 2534-2537 (testimony) 

Atkinson, Brooks 2499 

Barnhard, David A 2537 

Baum, Charles T., Jr 2578 

Bentley, Elizabeth 2569,2570 

Berkeley, Martin 2535, 2536 

Berman, Lionel 2510, 2511 

Blake, George Charney 2495 

Bloomgarden, Kermit 254S 

Boudin, Leonard B 2573, 2575, 2591, 2595 

Brecht, Berthold 2571 

Bromberg, J. Edward 2547, 2548, 2600 

Carnovsky, Morris 2597 

Carpenter, Clifford (A.) 2571-2573 (testimony) 

Carroll, Paul Vincent 2518 

Chamberlain (Neville) 2512 

Charney, George Blake 2527 

Christlieb, Donald 2529 

Cogley, John 2599 

Conway, Curt 2541, 2587 

Daladier (Edouard) 2512 

Delaney, Hubert T 2514, 2523 

Dobronofsky, Charles. (See Dubin, Charles.) 

Dubin, Charles S. (born Charles Dobronofsky) 2523-2528 (testimony) 

Eaton, Cyrus 2500 

Fast, Howard 2515, 2536, 2537 

Faulkner, Stanley 2479 

Foxman, David (A.) 2578 

Furth, Alex. (See Sasuly, Richard.) 

Geer, Will 2483 

Gersten, Bernard 2479-2489 (testimony) 

Gitlin, Leo 2587 

Golden, Dave 2510 

Goldman, Ben 2578 

Gordon, Dave 2510 

Grace, Michael P 2539, 2540 

Grant, Lee (born Lyova Rosenthal; Mrs. Arnold Manoff) 2476, 

2595-2601 (testimony) 

Green, Gil 2494 

Grenell, Horace (W.) 2575-2579 (testimony) 

Griswold (Erwin Nathaniel) 2504 

Hecht, Ben 2518 

Hitler, Adolf 2512 

Hollister, Carroll 2528-2533 (testimony) 

Hunkins, Sterling 2559, 2561 

Hurok, S 2539 

Idriss, Ramez 2.529 

Jacobowitz, Norman B 2578 

Jaffe, Bernard 2.579 

Jerome, V. J 2563 

Jones, Earl 2514-2517 (testimony) 

Kazan, Elia 2547 

Kazan, Mrs. Elia 2547 

i 



ii IXDEX 

Pag« 

Khrushchev, Nikita 2513 

Klein, Joseph 2497 

Koukly, George 2540 

Lampell, Millard 2548 

Lautner, John 2475, 2493-2495 (testimony), 2510-2514 (testimony) 

Lawrence, William. ( See Lazar, William. ) 

Lawson, John Howard 2522 

Lazar, Israel. (See Lazar, William.) 

Lazar, William (also known as William Lawrence, Israel Lazar) 2490- 

2493 (testimony), 2494, 2495-2498 (testimony) 

Lee, Will (born William Lubovsky) 2517-2522 (testimony) 

Libman, Jennie Shaludel. [See Mann, Ann Shepherd.) 
Libman, Yisrol Paul Mann. {See Mann, Paul.) 

Lief, Arthur (born Abraham Lipshutz) 2537-2541 (testimony) 

Lipshutz, Abraham. {See Lief, Arthur.) 

London, Ephraim 2543, 2549 

Lubovsky, William. {See Lee, Will.) 

Lumet, Sidney 2599, 2600 

Mann, Ann Shepherd (Mrs. Paul Mann ; also known as Jennie Shaludel 

Libman) 2506 

Mann, Paul (born Yisrol Paul Mann Libman) 2475, 

2476, 2498-2510 (testimony) 

Manoff, Arnold 2596 

Manoff, Lee Grant. (See Grant, Lee.) 

Manson, Alan 2597 

McCuistion, WilHam C 2497 

Montgomery (Robert) 2599 

Morros, Boris 2576 

Nage, Imry 2520 

Needleman, Isidore G 2490, 2498 

O'Casey, Sean 2509 

Papirofsky, Joseph (also known as Joseph Papp) 2549-2558 (testimony) 

Papp, Joseph. ( See Papirofsky, Joseph. ) 

Parks, Larry 2521, 2554, 2555, 2557 

Polan, Lou 2597 

Portnoy, Leon 2573-2574 (testimony) 

Prato, James A 2578 

Proctor, James D 2543-2549 (testimony) 

Rabinowitz. Victor 2558, 2565, 2.566 

Randolph, John 2.j97 

Robeson, Paul 2488, 2489, 2515 

Ross, Paul M 2534 

Rotenberg, June 2559-2.561 

Sacher, Harry 2.528 

Sasuly, Elizabeth (Mrs. Richard Sasuly) 2.569 

Sasuly, Richard (also known as Alex Furth) 2566-2571 (testimony) 

Scribner, David 2.517 

Seeger, Pete 2.583 

Shapley, Harlow 2547 

Shaw, George Bernard 2571 

Shull, Leo 2587, 2588 

Shumlin, Herman 2.571 

Silber, Irwin 2579-2587 (testimony), 2.589 

Silvermaster, Nathan Gregory 2.567, 2569 

Solomon, Louis (also known as Louis Salaman) 2476, 2591-2-593 (testimony) 

Stalin, Josef 2.512 

Steinberg, Benjamin 2558-2564 (testimony) 

Sullivan, Elliott 2.597 

Temple, Shirley 2475, 2476, 2500 

Todd, Mike 2486 

Toscanini ( Arturo) 2.562 

Truman, Harry S 2500, 2531 

Trumbo, Dalton 2522 

Villard, Paul 2565-2566 (testimony) 

Waiter, Murray J 2578 

Williams, Esther 2525 



INDEX 1" 

Organizations _ ^ 

Page 

Abbey Record Manufacturing Co 2576 

Actors Equity Association ;;~oKon"o---i ok-q 

Actors' Laboratory, Inc 2519, 2520, 2oul, 25orf 

Actors Worlvshop-Paul Mann ^^^^ 

American Follisay Group 25*^ 

American Labor Party ^^A^ 

American Shakespeare Festival (Stratford, Conn.) 24SU, 24hd 

American Tlieater Wing, Inc ^2o!> 

Avon Publications -— 2o8l^ 

California Labor School 2o51-2oo3 

Civil Rights Congress (New York State) 249o 

Columbia Broadcasting System (CBS) 2551, 2554 

Comiuform , V^ 

Communist Party, Hungary 2513 

Communist Party of the U. S. A 2513 

National Executive Committee 2513 

New York State 2492, 2494, 2527 

Cultural Division 2510-2512 

New York City : 

Queens County, section 10 2494 

Organizational Commission 2495, 2510, 2511 

Review Commission 2511 

State Board 2510, 2511 

International Film Festival, Fifth (Karlovy Vary, Czechoslovakia) 2505 

Jefferson Chorus 2540, 2576 

Jefferson School of Social Science 2584, 2585 

Metropolitan Music School 2528, 2562 

Moiseyev Dance Co 2538 

Musicians, American Federation of Local 802 (New York City) 2540, 2562 

Musicians Congress Committee 2530 

Neighborhood Playhouse 2507, 2596 

New Playwrights, Inc 2515, 2516 

New York Shakespeare Festival 2549, 2550 

Parkway Music School Institute 2573 

Paul Mann Actors Workshop. {See Actors Workshop — Paul Mann.) 

People's Drama School of Theatre 2551 

Peoples Radio Foundation, Inc 2535, 2577 

People's Songs 2582, 2583 

School of the Stage for Action, Inc 2527 

Stage for Action 2525 

United States Government : 

Army, Military Government, Finance Division 2568 

University of California, Los Angeles 2551 

V. J. Jerome Defense Committee 2563 

Voice of America 2555, 2556 

Voice of Freedom Committee 2507 

West Side Anti-Fascist Committee, Theater-Radio Group 2520 

Young People's Records 2575, 2576 

Publications 

Daily Worker 2495 

Danger (TV program) 2596,2598,2599 

L G. Farben (book) 2568 

Investigator, The (radio-TV) 2523 

Look Homeward, Angel (play) 2543 

Twenty-One (quiz program) 2523 



X 



BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY 



3 9999 05706 3180 

'^ ^^^C A/Qua: rk 



^kSr"^ 



.ijd