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HARVARD COLLEGE
LIBRARY

3
/

GIFT OF THE

GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

(ENTERTAINMENT)

HEARINGS

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

JUNE 18 AND 19, 1958
MAY 8, 1958, AND APRIL 1, 1957

Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities

INCLUDING INDEX

UNITED STATES

(JOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 1058

HARVARD COLLEGE LIBRARY

DEPOSITED BY THE
UNITED STATES GGVERWWENT

SEP 23 1988

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives

FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New Yorli

CLYDE DOYLE, California DONALD L. JACKSON, California

EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio

WILLIAM M. TUCK, Virginia ROBERT J. McINTOSH, Micbigan

RiCHAKD Aeens, Staff DireclOT
II

CONTENTS

Page

Synopsis 2475

June IS, 1958 : Testimony of —

Bernard Gersten 2479

William Lazar (William Lawrence) 2490

John Lautner 2493

William Lazar (resumed) 2495

Paul Mann (Yisrol Paul Mann Libman) 2498

Afternoon session :

John Lautner (resumed) 2510

Earl Jones 2514

Will Lee (William Lubovsky) 2517

Charles S. Dubin ( Dobronof sky ) 2523

Carroll Hollister 2528

Adelaide Klein Annenberg 2534

Arthur Lief 2537

June 19, 1958 : Testimony of —

James D. Proctor 2543

Joseph Papirofsky (Papp) 2549

Benjamin Steinberg 2558

Paul Villard 2565

Richard Sasuly 2566

Clifford Carpenter 2571

Leon Portnoy 2573

Afternoon session :

Horace Grenell 2575

Irwin Silber 2579

EXECUTIVE TESTIMONY ^

May S, 1958 : Testimony of—
Afternoon session :

Louis Solomon 2591

April 1, 1957 : Testimony of —

Lee Grant (Manoff) 2595

Index i

• Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.

Ill

Public Law 601, 79th Congress

The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter
753, 2d session, which provides:

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *

PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Rule X

SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
*******

17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members.

Rule XI

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******

(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.

(A) Un-American activities.

(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary
remedial legislation.

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.

*******

Rule XII

LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT BY STANDING COMMITTEES

Sec. 136. To assist the Congress in appraising the administration of the laws
and in developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem neces-
sary, each standing committee of the Senate and the House of Representatives
shall exercise continuous watchfulness of the execution by the administrative
agencies concerned of any laws, the subject matter of which is ".\ ithin the jurisdic-
tion of such committee; and, for that purpose, shall study all pertinent reports
and data submitted to the Congress by the agencies in the executive branch of
the Government.

RULES ADOPTED BY THE 85TH CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 3, 1957

^ :(: :|c :(: sK 4: >)'

Rule X

STANDING COMMITTEES

1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con-
gress,

(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members.

Rule XI

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES

17. Committee on Un-American Activities.

(a) Un-American activities.

(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop-
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.

26. To assist the House in appraising the administration (/f the laws and in
developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem necessary,
each standing committee of the House shall exercise continuous watchfulness
of the execution by the administrative agencies concerned of any laws, the subject
matter of which is within the jurisdiction of such committee; and, for that
purpose, shall study all pertinent reports and data submitted to the House by
the agencies in the executive branch of the Government.

SYNOPSIS

Public hearings held in New York on June 18 and 19, 1958, were a
continuation of a long series the committee has held on Communist
influence in an important phase of American life. Nearly all the wit-
nesses called in these hearings were actively engaged in the entertain-
ing arts — primarily the theater and the fields of radio and television.

As pointed out in the chairman's opening statement, the witnesses'
field of employment was important to the committee only as a by-
product of their present or recent membership in the Communist
Party and their consequent knowledge of Communist Party opera-
tions in this country, particularly in entertaimnent media. Had these
persons lacked information which flowed from their Communist Party
membership, they would have been of no interest to the committee.

The hearings made it clear that the entertainment industry is still
a special target for Communist infiltration. Nineteen witnesses testi-
fied in them. One witness invoked the first amendment in refusing to
answer questions about his membership in the Communist Party.
The other 17 witnesses all invoked the fifth amendment. The only
cooperative witness was John Lautner, a former official of the Com-
munist Party who has given valuable testimony to various govern-
mental agencies since his break with the party in 1950.

In most cases, the firms which employed the witnesses who appeared
in these hearings had no knowledge of their subversive backgrounds.
This does not mean the employers were not concerned about the prob-
lem of Communist infiltration, nor does it mean that they had made
no effort to check the background of their employees. It means sim-
ply that a private business is not equipped to uncover the operations
of an underground conspiracy.

A reading of the testimony of the uncooperative witnesses in the
hearings demonstrates that, in the main, they were more concerned
with protecting the Communist conspiracy and the identity of its
members, and also in attacking this committee, than they were in pro-
viding the Congress with information that would help it enact legis-
lation vital to the security of the people of this Nation. They injected
into the hearings statements designed to engender sympathy for them-
selves as persecuted martyrs, attemped to becloud the real issues, and
made unfounded statements in their efforts to discredit this committee.
By indirection, however, they did unwittingly supply the committee
with valuable information.

The case of Paul Mann was typical. He falsely accused the com-
mittee of having "investigated" Shirley Temple when she was only 10
years of age. The truth, of course, is that this committee has never
mvestigated Shirley Temple. The facts of the Shirley Temple inci-
dent are as follows :

Twenty years ago, an expert witness, in the course of his testimony

2475

2476 COMIVIUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

before the Special Committee on Un-American Activities, explained
how the Commnnist Party uses prominent non-Communists to pro-
mote Moscow's line, relying on the willingness of many such people (or
their agents) to sign statements without bothering to read them. As
an example of what he meant, he pointed out that, on the occasion of
its first anniversary, a French Commmiist Party newspaper had re-
cently featured greetings from three of America's best-known male
movie stars (whose names he gave) ""and even Shirley Temple."

The witness had prefaced this example of how the Communist Party
uses non- Communists and anti- Communists to promote its cause with
these words: "I am not trying to make these persons' names stand out
in any odious manner whatsoever." A reading of the full testimony
of the witness in question — a recognized authority on communism —
makes it clear that he had no intention of implying or hinting that
Shirley Temple or any of the other persons whose names had been used
by the French Communist newspaper were Communists, pro-Commu-
nists, or fellow travelers.

Yet Paul Mann attempted to use the testimony of this witness to
give new and wider circulation to the tale that this committee had
"investigated" Shirley Temple, a fable that has been repeatedly used
by Communists and their sympathizers in their efforts to discredit
committees of the Congress investigating communism.

Mann tried to portray himself as a person who was interested only
in the preservation of the American theater and free artistic endeavor.
The committee has been reliably informed, however, that he obtained
his United States citizenship and, later, a United States passport, by
falsely denying affiliation with the Communist Party.

Several witnesses expected to testify in these hearings did not
appear because they were hospitalized on the day of their scheduled
appearance or shortly before. One such witness, Louis Solomon, also
known as Louis Salaman, had been interrogated on May 8, 1958. His
testimony of that date is released and made a part of this volume.

In connection with a previous investigation in the entertainment
field, testimony was taken from Lee Grant, an actress. Her testimony
is likewise released and made a part of this volume.

It is evident from a review of the hearing record that Communists
use the various entertainment media to promote the cause of interna-
tional communism. Both through fraud and the concealment of
material facts, they have raised funds for the Communist Party and
have endeavored to entrap nonsuspecting Americans into believing
that they, or the organizations which they were promoting, were de-
signed for the betterment of the arts or of the American way of life.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA
(Entertainment)

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 18, 1958

United States House of Representatives,

Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,

NeiD York, N. Y.

public hearings

A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met, pursuant to resolution, at 10 a. m., in room 129, Federal Court
House, Foley Square, New York, N. Y., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder,
chairman of the subcommittee, presiding.

Committee members present: Representatives Morgan M. Moulder,
of Missouri ; William M. Tuck, of Virginia ; and Gordon IT. Scherer,
of Ohio.

Staff members present : Richard Arens, staff director, and Donald
T. Appell, investigator.

Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.

Have the record show that the Honorable William M. Tuck, of Vir-
ginia, on my left, and the Honorable Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio, on
my right, and myself, Morgan M. Moulder, presiding, are present at
the opening of the subcommittee.

At this point there will be inserted in the record the resolution
adopted on May 21, 1958, by the Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties authorizing the hearings.

Let there also be inserted in the record at this point the order
appointing the subcommittee.

(The documents referred to follow :)

Resolution fob New York Hearings

The following resolution was unanimously adopted :

Be, it resohJed, That a hearing by the committee, or a subcommittee thereof,
be held in New York City beginning on the 17th day of June 1958, or on any
other date fixed by the chairn^an of the committee, and that the staff be
authorized to conduct investigations deemed reasonably necessary in prepara-
tion therefor, relating to the following subjects and having the legislative pur-
poses indicated :

1. Tlie promotion of famous name personalities in the work of Communist-
front organizations as a propaganda activity in aid and support of the Commu-
nist Party, the legislative purpose being to determine the necessity for, and
advisability of, amendment to the Internal Security Act of 1950, section 7 (d),
relating to' the registration statement required to be made by Communist-front
organizations.

2. The extent of use of aliases by members of the Communist Party obtaining
employment in communication facilities under control of the Federal Commu-

2477

2478 COMMUNISM EST THE NEW YORK AREA

nications Commission, for the purpose of considering whether legislation is
needed requiring registration with the Federal Communications Commission,
setting forth all aliases used by such persons.

3. Employment discrimination favorable to members of the Communist Party
and the diffusion within the United States of subversive Communist propaganda,
for the purpose of obtaining additional information for use by the committee
in its consideration of section 16 of H. R. 9352, relating to the proposed amend-
ment of section 4 of the Communist Control Act of 1954, prescribing a penalty
for knowingly and willfully becoming or remaining a member of the Commu-
nist Party with knowledge of the purposes or objectives thereof.

May 21, 1958.
To Mr. Richard Arens, Staff Director, House Committee on Un-American
Activities:
Pursuant to the provisions of law and the rules of this committee, I hereby
appoint a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities, consist-
ing of Representative Morgan M. Moulder, as chairman, and Representatives
William M. Tuck and Gordon H. Scherer, as associate members, to conduct
public hearings in New York, N. Y., Tuesday and Wednesday, June 17 and 18,
1958, at 10 a. m., on subjects under investigation by the committee and take
such testimony on said days or succeeding days, as it may deem necessary.
Please make this action a matter of committee record.
If any member indicates his inability to serve, please notify me-
Given under my hand this 21st day of May 1958.

Francis B. Walter,
Chairman, Committee on Un-American Activities.

Mr. Mgtjlder. This series of hearings by the Committee on Un-
American Activities is for the purpose of taking testimony from in-
dividuals who, according to investigation, possess knowledge neces-
sary for the consideration of legislation presently pending before
the committee. The witnesses called maintain themselves economi-
cally by employment in the entertainment mediums. However, they
have been subpenaed because they possess knowledge of the manner
and method by which the Communist Party operates or has oper-
ated in the United States by infiltration in the entertainment field.
If the witnesses did not possess such knowledge, neither they nor
their field of employment would be of interest to this committee.

We are interested in learning from these witnesses the extent to
which the Communist Party uses talent, similar to the talent of the
witnesses under subpena, for the purpose of facilitating the Com-
munist Party program or assisting the party in formulating or fi-
nancing its front activities.

Previous hearings have established that Communist Party mem-
bers enjoying large incomes from the entertainment field have sub-
stantially financed the Communist Party. To protect their incomes,
some of them have severed their formal connection with the Com-
munist Party. However, this severance has not been the result of
an ideological break, but one which merely permits them to deny
party membership and maintain their lucrative employment. In
their "without portfolio" status, they seem to continue to finance
the Communist Party through financial contribution or by hiring,
if they are in a position to do so, members of the Communist Party
who, m turn, support the party through their finances and their
propaganda activities on behalf of the party or its front programs.

This activity even includes the presentation, in dramatic form, of the
works of Communist authors and composers who, in turn, use their
royalties to finance the Communist Party and its propaganda activi-
ties not only in the United States, but in other free countries of the

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2479

world. These witnesses should be possessed with vast knowledge and
important information on this subject, and their knowledge is needed
by the committee.

No one will disagree with our finding that a Communist-front or-
ganization cannot f)Ossibly succeed if its membership is restricted to
known Communists. We have seen how certain Communist-front
organizations were disbanded overnight when their leaders were
disclosed before the Subversive Activities Control Board as members
of the Communist Party. These proceedings before the Subversive
Activities Control Board resulted from legislation reported by this
committee which was based on information obtained during hearings
similar to this one.

In addition to determining whether amendments are needed to the
Subversive Activities Control Act of 1950, as amended in 1954, the
committee is interested in learning to what extent the field of com-
munications, of which radio and television are such a vital part, en-
dangers our national security when individuals engaged therein are
members of the Communist Party. These fields must be free from
possible subversion during a national emergency. That cannot be
so if the Federal Government does not know the true identity of those
witli access to our airwaves. In the consideration of our security,
should a person employed in the radio or television industry who has
been a concealed member of the Communist Party be required to reg-
ister such fact with the Federal Communications Commission?

Inquiry into other fields of communications, such as telephone and
telegraph, indicates that such a registration might be desirable. It
is our hope that this series of hearings will enable us to receive knowl-
edge necessary to guide our legislative deliberations.

Mr. Arens is chief counsel and staff director of the committee.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, it is necessary this morning to take out
of order a witness who was originally scheduled to be heard late
today. The witness is Mr. Bernard Gersten, who because of press-
ing commitments wants to leave the community here to be elsewhere
later today. We planned on scheduling him later today, but pursu-
ant to the strong urgings of his counsel, we will take him out of order
if it meets with the pleasure of the chairman.

Mr. Faulkner. We would appreciate not having any photographs
taken.

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give before this subcommittee of the House Committee on
Un-American Activities of the United States Congress will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Gersten. I do.

TESTIMONY OF BEKNAED GERSTEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
STANLEY FAULKNER

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself my name, residence, and
occupation.

Mr. Gersten. My name is Bernard Gersten. I live at 56 Seventh
Avenue, New York. I am currently in residence in Connecticut and I
work as a stage manager.

Mr. Arens. "Where are you employed, Mr. Gersten?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

2480 COMMUNISM IX THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Gersten. At the American Shakespeare Festival in Stratford,
Conn.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing todaj^ in response to a subpena served
upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities?

Mr. Gersten. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Gersten, Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself for the record?

Mr. Faulkner. Stanley Faulkner, 9 East 40th Street, New York
16, N. Y.

Mr. Arens. How long have you been employed by the American
Shakespeare Festival, Mr. Gersten?

Mr. Gersten. One year.

Mr. Arens. What was your employment immediately prior to your
present employment ?

(The witness conferred with his comisel.)

Mr. Gersten. As I understood the legislative purpose that was
stated by the committee chairman, the legislation pending before the
committee has to do with possible registering individuals who work
in the television and radio industry. I work in neither industry and
therefore I do not see the relevancy of that question, either to the
legislation stated, the planned legislation stated, or to anything else
that the committee chairman indicated.

Mr. Arens. Perhaps it would help you if we had another pre-
liminary question. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Gersten. I feel that that question is an invasion of my rights
of privacy. I do not think that this committee or any committee
of Congress has the right to ask me questions about either political
affiliations, religious associations. I believe those questions are out-
side of the purview of this committee or any committee of Congress.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question; and I point
out, if you please, sir, to help clarify the pertinency of the question
that we are not at any time, nor will we at any time during the course
of the hearings here, interrogate any witness with respect to his be-
liefs or his associations. That is a fabrication that has been devised
by the Communist Party and those under Communist discipline to
undertake to discredit congressional committees seeking to develop
facts with respect to a conspiracy in the United States which is de-
signed to overthrow this Government and to further the interests of
the international Communist operation.

The sole and exclusive question which is pending before you now,
Mr. Gersten, is whether or not you are now a Communist, a member
of the Communist Party.

I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that he be ordered and di-
rected to answer the question.

Mr. Moulder. I wish to say that counsel said that you would not
be asked questions concerning associations. I am sure that he in-
tends to amend that by saying no questions or interrogation of you
will be made concerning your personal, social associations, but most
certainly you can be asked questions concerning your associations.

Mr. Arens. I would amend it, if you please, Mr. Chairman, by
clarifying that we are not probing, never have, do not now, and never
will, into associations for the sake of associations only, but rather for

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2481

the sake of getting information respecting people whom this man or
other witnesses may know who have been active in the Communist
conspiracy.

(The witness conferred with his counseh)

Mr. Gersten. Mr. Chairman, I do not understand tlie amendments
that are taken because the abridgement of this freedom of associa-
tion—when the counsel tells me that he is only asking certain ques-
tions about association, or certain questions about belief, I do not
understand that. I really do not. My understanding and my very
firm conviction is that no committee of Congress may inquire as to
any associations.

Mr. Moulder. He has not asked you a question about your associa-
tion.

Mr. Gersten. He has. He has asked me a question about a po-
litical association.

Mr. Arens. Let's confine the question specifically to this question :
Are you now a Communist ?

Mr. Gersten. That is the question I am objecting to.

Mr. Scherer. I ask you, Mr. Chairman, to direct the witness to
answer the question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question,

Mr. Gersten. I must decline to answer that question for the rea-
sons stated and also because

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Moulder. The committee has conferred and suggested that
counsel give you further information concerning the purpose of this
hearing, and the object of the committee in interrogating you and
soliciting you for information that may aid and assist the committee
in its legislative program.

Mr. Faulkner. Are you withdrawing the direction ?

Mr. Arens. No, sir.

Mr. Moulder. The question will be reframed and asked again.

Mr. Gersten. Any way that question is phrased, I would decline
to answer it.

Mr. Moulder. Advise and inform the witness.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Gersten, I would like to advise you, and this will
be advice that will be applicable to many questions which I propose
to propound to you today. Tlie Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties is a committee of the ITnited States Congress which has almost
unanimous support of the Plouse of Representatives consistently in
its endeavors to develop factual information to recommend legislation
dealing with the Communist operation in the United States. It is
frequently and erroneously asserted that this connnittee is probing
into people's thoughts, political associations, and ideas. That, of
course, is a device or a facade created by the Communist conspiracy
so they can hide behind it.

This committee is now in the process of considering a great number
of legislative proposals, including the proposals in a bill H, R. 9937,
which was introduced by the chairman of this committee and has
probably, I would estimate as of the moment, 2 or 8 dozen separate
provisions undertaking to cope with this conspiratorial operation. We
all know, at least the overwhelming majority of the American people
know, it is not a political party, is not a political activity, but is a con-
spiratorial operation designed to undermine this Nation, designed to

2482 COMMUNISM in the new york area

further the interests of the Soviet empire in its drive for global
domination.

In the consideration of that legislation, it is necessary for the com-
mittee to have facts with which it can weigh and appraise the various
proposals which are pending. In addition to the actual legislation
which is pending in formal bills, the committee from time to time is in
deliberation as to what legislation might be devised. It is also review-
ing present statutes as to whether or not they are adequate.

I say in the consideration of this legislation and these proposals and
the discharge of its legislative functions this committee is constantly
trying to develop factual information.

It IS our information that you, sir, are now a member of the Com-
munist Party. It is our information that you have information
respecting Communist penetration in the entertainment medium. We
feel that if you would tell us now the information you have respect-
ing Communist Party use of actors, entertainers, in the furtherance of
the Communist front activities in the United States, the use of these
people as Communists and as Communist fronters in the solicitation
and development of funds for the conspiratorial operation, that you
would add immeasurably to the fund of knowledge of this committee
in its consideration and appraisal of its legislative proposals.

Now that explanation, I hope, will be borne in mind by you in con-
sideration of a number of questions.

I now pose to you, so the record is absolutely clear at this time, the
principal question again : Are you now, this instant, a member of the
Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gersten. Nothing that the counsel has said has altered my feel-
ing from before the counsel spoke. It is an interesting speech and
people may agree or disagree with him. I do not care to state my point
of view whether I agree with him or disagree with him, and I chal-
lenge the jurisdiction of counsel to ask these questions.

Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the
question.

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer the question.

Mr. Moulder. May we further advise you that when you consider
your response to that direction, you are possibly placing yourself in
the position of being in contempt of the Congress of the United
States and you are advised of that, not in the spirit of threatening
you or to coerce you, but so that you might know of the position in
which you are placing yourself by refusing to answer.

Mr. Arens. So the record may be absolutely clear, is it clear in your
mind, sir, that you have not invoked in your refusal to answer this
question those provisions of the fifth amendment to the Constitution
of the United States which give you the privilege of declining to an-
swer questions which you, in good faith, feel could be used against
you in a criminal proceeding ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gersten. Sir, I must continue to decline to answer that ques-
tion and I take the chairman's advice about the possibility of con-
tempt. I am afraid I cannot accept your statement that it is not used

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2483

as a means of coercion to apply pressure. I am afraid it is. The rea-
sons I decline to answer that question are the reasons I have stated,
and I will further add that a witness may not be compelled to bear
witness against himself.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel, sir, that if you answered this last
principal question truthfully as to whether or not you are now, at
this moment, a member of the Communist Party, you would be sup-
plying information which might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gersten. I must decline to answer that question as well for the
reasons previously stated.

Mr. Arens. I request that the witness be ordered and directed to
answer that question in order to test the good faith of the witness now
in invoking the fifth amendment.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed and ordered to answer the
question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens. Is Mr. Will Geer engaged in the American Shakespeare
Festival company ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gersten. I think that coimnittee counsel has this ad in front
of him, and he probably has a list of all of the actors. I did not have
an alphabetical. We have an equal billing clause that requires, if I
mention the name of one member, I must mention the name of all of
them, and it is a list of 24 actors, and I do not have them memorized
and Mr. Geer is certainly among them.

Mr. Arens. To your certain knowledge is Will Geer a member of
the Communist Party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gersten. I know Mr. Geer as an actor and as a member of the
company and I know him no other way, I am afraid.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever applied for a United States passport?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gersten. I must decline to answer that question on the basis
of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Scherer. I ask you to direct the witness to answer the question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gersten. Again I must decline to answer that question on the
basis that a witness may not be compelled to testify against himself.

Mr. Arens. Did you in 1954 or thereabouts take a trip abroad ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gersten. No.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever taken a trip abroad ?

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever gone to Czechoslovakia ?

Mr. Gersten. My answer must be the same,

Mr. Arens. The same as what ?

2484 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Gersten. As the previous answer.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend, sir, that if you told this
committee while you are under oath

Mr. Gersten. The counsel says honestly apprehend. I honestly ap-
prehend, completel3\

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you tell this committee
under oath whether or not you have taken a trip to Czechoslovakia jou
are supplying information which ma}^ be used against you in a crimi-
nal proceeding?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Have you been on the initiating committee of the
Third World Youth Festival which was held in Berlin in August of
1951?

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Were you a delegate to that festival ?

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you a thermofax repro-
duction of a publication of the Third World Festival of Youth and
Students for Peace, which was held in Berlin in 1951 which, among
other things, lists the initiating committee in the United States for
this enterprise.

In that list there appears the name Bernard Gersten, stage man-
ager. Kindly look at this exhibit as it is disjolayed to you and tell us
whether or not the information contained in that exhibit with refer-
ence to yourself is true and correct.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question on the basis previ-
ously stated.

(Document marked "Gersten Exhibit No. 1'' and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born ?

Mr. Gersten. In Newark, N. J., on January 30, 1923.

Mr. Aeens. Kindly give us a word, sir, respecting your formal
education.

Mr. Gersten. High school and 2 years at Rutgers University.

Mr. Arens. When did you conclude your formal education at Rut-
gers University ?

Mr. Gersten. May of 1942.

Mr. Arens. I take it j^ou did not receive a degree.

Mr. Gersten. No, I did not.

Mr. Arens. Give us, sir, just the principal employments you have
had since you concluded your formal education.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gersten. In tlie statement that the counsel made, that the chair-
man made, prior to the opening of the hearing, or at the beginning of
the hearing today, he stated that legislation is currently pending
before Congress relating to the possible registration, is the word he
used, I believe, "registration" of so-called Communists who work in
radio and television. I do not work in radio and television and I do
not see the relationship what my past employment has to the stated
pending legislation before the committee.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2485

Mr. Arens. In addition to the opening statement, I believe you will
recall there was an elaboration on certain of the factual situations by
myself with reference to legislative proposals which are pending be-
fore the connnittee. Now would you kindly tell this conmiittee what
have been your principal employments since you concluded your
formal education at Rutgers.

Mr. Gersten. I worked principally as a stage manager.

Mr. Arens. What was the tirst principal employment you had as a
stage manager ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gersten. I must state as before that I do not see the relevancy
to either the stated purposes of the chairman or of the counsel of
this committee. I therefore decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.

Mr. Moulder. Yes, the witness is extremely uncooperative. We
do advise you and order and direct you to answer the question.

Mr. Gersten. I am sorry I have to be uncooperative, but I do find it
necessary to be. I think the questions the committee asks are im-
proper questions. I really do, and I find it difficult to answer Avhat I
consider to be improper questions.

Mr. Scherer. Is there any question we could ask you that would
be a proper question ?

Mr. Gersten. Are there what ?

Mr. Scherer. I will pass it up.

Mr. Arens. Let's go backward for a little while, if you please.

Mr. Gersten. I decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee the principal employments which you have had since you con-
cluded your formal education at Eutgers you would be supplying
information which might be used against you in a criminal proceed-
ing?

Mr. Gersten. That is a question which I have answered a number
of times before, and I must answer it the same way again.

Mr. Scherer. Witness, let me explain to you that your answer under
that question must be "Yes." All the counsel is asking you is whether
you are invoking the fifth amendment in good faith. That is all
counsel is asking you.

Mr. Gersten. 1 did not imderstand it that way at all.

Mr. Faulkner. We have had a series of questions on that.

Mr. Moulder. You can advise your client, but do not advise Mr.
Scherer.

Mr. Faulkner. I have been waiting for a half year for a reply from
Mr. Scherer to my letter.

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Arens is asking you if you are invoking the fifth
amendment in good faith and if you actually apprehend that an
answer to that question would lead to criminal prosecution. You do
not say that it would incriminate 3'ou to say that you are invoking the
fifth amendment properly and in good faith. How could that possibly
incriminate you ?

Mr. Gersten. Everything I do here is essentially in good faith, so
the question is, so far as I am concerned, a rhetorical question.

Mr. Scherer. I just thought I would explain it to you.

28123—58 2

2486 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

I request, Mr. Cliairnmn, that you direct and order the witness to
answer the question whether or not he is invoking the fifth amend-
ment in good faith, and that if he answers tlie question that it might
incriminate him.

Mr. Gerstex. I must decline to answer that question, as well, on the
basis of the fifth amendment.

jNIr. Arexs. Has there been any principal employment you have had
since you concluded your formal education at Rutgers concerning
which you can tell this committee without revealing information that
might be used against you in a criminal proceeding (

Air. Gersten. I could discuss all of the jobs I have had in great
detail. Do 3' ou want to know what troubles we have had ? ^Vliat do
you want to know about my employment ? I have done a great number
of shows. I have done summer stock. I have done the Mike Todd
birthday party. I would be happy to discuss that w^ith you.

Mr, Arexs. Would you tell us the principal employments you have
had since you completed your formal education ?

Mr. Gerstex. I have already declined to answer that question.

Mr. Arexs. Are there some principal emplojmients which you have
had since you completed your formal education that you can reveal
that would not be used against you in a criminal proceeding?

Mr. Gerstex. What facts is counsel after and what does it relate to ?

Mr. Arexs. I would be very glad to tell you in a little more
detail. You have declined, sir, to answer the question as to the prin-
cipal employments which you have had since you concluded your
formal education on the ground that to do so would supply informa-
tion that would be used against you in a criminal proceeding. I have
now asked j^ou whether or not there are some employments which
you have had since you concluded your formal education concerning
which you could tell this committee without revealing information
that could be used against you in a criminal proceeding; in other
words, any non-Communist employment or any emploj^ment.

Vfould you tell us, are there some employments, principal employ-
ments, that you have had, which in no way related to Communist
activities ?

Mr. ScHERER. Like he said, directing the Mike Todd show.

Mr. Gerstex. I was the stage manager. I did not direct it.

Mr. Sciierer. Are there any others like that? That would not
incriminate you to tell us about the staging of the Mike Todd show.

Mr. Gerstex. "Wliat do you want to know about them? I really
don't understand the question.

Mr. ScHERER. We do not want you to tell us anything in detail.
You told us that you stage-managed the Mike Todd show. Are there
any other shows you managed ?

Mr. Gerstex. To what does such questions relate ?

Mr. Arexs. You are entitled to an explanation. If you tell us the
principal emploj^ments which you have had, I then intend to interro-
gate you with reference to each of the principal employments as to
any Communist activity in which you may have been engaged as a
stage manager — undertaking to do the Communist Party bidding in
your activity. This would be in furtherance of the objective of this
committee of obtaining factual information respecting Communist
activities which mi^ht be added to the fund of knowledge this com-
mittee has in appraising legislation which is pending before it.

COMIMTJNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2487

(The witness conferred with his comisel.)

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer any questions in rehation to
employment on the basis of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you answered ques-
tions respecting principal employments you have had since your for-
mal education at Kutgers you would be supplying information that
would be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?

Mr. Gerstek. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully request that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer that last outstanding question, because unless he
honestly apprehends that the answers could be used against him in a
criminal proceeding he is not entitled to invoke the privileges of the
fifth amendment and is therefore not acting in good faith.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the
question.

Mr. Gersten. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Have you been secretary-treasurer of the Emergency
Committee of the Arts and Professions To Secure Clemency for the
Rosenbergs ?

Let me explain the question to you.

Mr. Gersten. I understand the question.

Mr. Arens. I will explain it. If you have been secretary-treasurer
of the Emergency Committee of the Arts and Professions To Secure
Clemency for the Eosenbergs, that would lead us into an area we would
like to explore very greatly^ — the extent to which the arts and pro-
fessions were used by the Communist conspiracy in the Rosenberg case
for the furtherance of Communist propaganda objectives.

Mr. Gersten. I have already answered the question.

Mr. Arens. Kindly look at this thermof ax exhibit. It is captioned :
"Must the Rosenbergs Die ? " And at the end reads :

This advertisement was paid for by popular subscription and published by the
Emergency Committee of the Arts and Professions To Secure Clemency for the
Rosenbergs, Bernard Gersten, secretary-treasurer.

If this is a Communist enterprise, then it would appear to be very
clear from the standpoint of the legislative interest of this committee
that the Communist Party, the Communist conspiracy in the United
States, was using people in the arts and in the professions, Communists
and non-Communists, for Communist objectives.

Kindly look at that exhibit and tell us whether or not that desig-
nation of you as secretary-treasurer of this committee is true and
correct.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gersten. I believe I have already answered the question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answered the question.
You have not answered the question.

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer it on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.

(Document marked "Gersten Exhibit No. 2" and retained in com-
mittee file.)

Mr. Arens. Sir, are there people in the entertainment industry who
to your certain loiowledge are, or in the recent past have been, mem-
bers of the Communist Party ?

2488 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gerstex. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Are you presently engaged in any professional organi-
zation of people in the entertainment industry ?

Mr. Gerstex. I have already told you I am. I work for the Ameri-
ican Shakespeare Festival.

Mr. Arexs. I mean a fraternal group of people in the professions.

(The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Gerstex. Are you asking me about a trade-union affiliation?

Mr. Arexs. Yes, sir.

Mr. Gerstex. That has always been a bad question to ask, and
congressional committees are not supposed to ask it.

Mr. ScHERER. Senator McClellan's committee has been doing that
for weeks.

Mr. Gerstex. I am a member of the Actors' Equity Association.

Mr. Arexs. Have you held any office or post in Actors' Equity
Association ?

Mr. Gerstex. No ; I have not.

Mr. Arens. Have you participated in any of the deliberations of
Actors' Equity with reference to the question of issuance of passports
to Communists?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gerstex. No ; I have not.

Mr. Arexs. Did you participate in the deliberations of Actors'
Equity with reference to the question of issuance of, or denial of,
passport to Paul Robeson ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gerstex. May I have the question repeated, please ?

Mr. Arexs. Do you want to withdraw your last answer ?

Perhaps there was a misunderstanding when I asked you whether
or not you participated in any proceedings of Actors' Equity with
ref ei'ence to passports to Communists.

Mr. Faulkxer. Mr. Gersten was inquiring whether you had a stool-
pigeon in Actors' Equity.

Mr. Arexs. What do you mean ?

Mr, Gerstex. I wonder how the views come before a congressional
committee.

Mr. Arexs. I have a publication before me entitled "Equity," June
1958, which is the official organ of this fine organization, Actors'
Equity Association. In this magazine I see quoted Bernard Gersten
with reference to the matter of the issuance of a passport to interna-
tional Communist agent Paul Robeson. Now will you tell us whether
or not you participated in the deliberations of Actors' Equity with ref-
erence to the issuance or denial of passports to Communists?

Mr. Gerstex. It is funny the way you put the question, Counsel.
He was a member of our union. lie was asked to play a part in a
Shakespearean role in Stratford, England, where there is another
place where they did Shakespeare. I am interested that a member
of our union would be allowed to play in a Shakespearean role when
he is offered, and that is what I did, and not the way counsel put it.

(Document marked "Gersten Exhibit No. 3" and retained in com-
mittee files.)

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2489

Mr. Arens. Tell us whether or not you were a proponent of the
issuance of a passport to Paul Robeson.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Gersten. Yes, I am afraid that I anticipated the Supreme
Court's Monday decision.

Mr. Arens. Then you could anticipate the reason why this commit-
tee is interested in this area and would like to have an answer to this
question as to whether or not you participated in the deliberations
with respect to the issuance of a passport to Paul Robeson and
whether or not you were a proponent for the issuance of a passport
to Paul Robeson.

Mr. Gersten. You say international Communist agent. He is a
member of the actors' union. We do not have such members in the
union to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Arens. You are in the miion.

Mr. Gersten. I have answered that question.

Mr. xVrens. I do not want to quibble with you here.

Kindly tell us whether or iiot you were a proponent in Actors'
Equity 'deliberations with respect to the issuance of a passport to
Paul Robeson.

Mr. Gersten. As a matter of fact, as I remember the issue, there
was a resolution before the meeting urging that the counsel of Actors'
Equity Association support, not propose, support the right of Mr.
Robeson, a member of the union, to travel in order to perform in
Stratford, England, and I spoke in favor of that resolution.

Whether that means in counsel's terms that I am a proponent of the
issuance of a passport, I would say, "No, I am not." I spoke in favor
of the resolution.

Mr. Arens. You spoke in favor of the resolution presented for a
passport for an international Communist agent, Paul Robeson.

Mr. Gersten. The words are yours, not mine.

Mr. Arens. When you stood up and made this address to your col-
leagues in the Actors' Equity, did you tell them whether or not your
position was motivated by any affiliation or membership discipline
under which you were operating at the behest of the Communist
Party?

Mr. Gersten. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make it clear to you,
I do not know if I can make it clear to anybody else, any actions are
motivated by my thoughts.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party the very
instant that you were speaking before the Actors' Equity membership
on behalf of the resolution wliich advocated a passport for Paul
Robeson ?

Mr. Gersten. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I suggest that will conclude the interrogation of this
witness.

Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions of the witness ?

The witness is excused.

The committee will stand in recess for five minutes.

2490 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

(Brief recess.)

Mr. Moulder. The committee will please be in order.

Call the next witness, please, Mr. Arens.

Mr. ^GfENs. Mr. William Lawrence, kindly come forward.

Mr. Needleman. I represent a Mr. Lazar. Possibly you mean
him. If you are calling Mr. Lazar, I represent him.

Mr. Arens. William Lazar, then, please come forward.

Mr. Moulder. It is a rule of the committee that while the witness
is on the witness stand, taking pictures of the witness is prohibited.
Up to that time we do not have a rule prohibiting the taking of
photographs.

Mr. Needleman. Does my client have to walk into this barrage of
photographers ?

Mr. Arens. Mr. Lazar, will you kindly come forward, pursuant to
the subpena ?

Mr. Needleman. He is in the courtroom and when the photographers
sit down, he will come forward.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to take the witness stand.
Call the witness again.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Lazar, pursuant to the subpena which is outstanding
which has been served upon you on the order of this committee, will
you kindly come forward.

Mr. Lazar. May I ask the photographers as fellow workmen to
please refrain from taking a picture of me. I respectfully request,
gentlemen, that you will not take pictures.

Mr. Moulder. The committee will conduct the hearing in accordance
with what we believe to be the proper conduct and we are doing so. We
now, of course, respectfully request the photographers to refrain from
taking any pictures while the witness is testifying.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
before this subcommittee of the House Committee on Un-American
Activities of the United States Congress will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Lazar. I do,

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM LAZAK (WILLIAM LAWRENCE), ACCOM-
PANIED BY COUNSEL, ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Lazar. William Lazar, 30 Greenwich Avenue, spotter by trade.

Mr. Arens. And you are appearing today, Mr. Lazar, in response to a
subpena Avhich was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?

Mr. Lazar. That is right.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I think that IMr, Lazar may be inadver-
tently violating the rules of the courtroom by smoking in the room.

Mr. Lazar, When I removed the ash tray there was a cigarette on it.

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel, Mr. Lazar?

Mr. Lazar, That is right,

Mr, Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself ?

Mr. Needleman. Isidore G. Needleman, 165 Broadway, New York 6.

My client has a challenge to the jurisdiction of this committee which
will take about 1 minute to make.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2491

Mr. Moulder. Do you wish to make a brief statement ?

Mr. Lazar. Yes, sir.

Mr. Moulder. Proceed.

Mr. Lazar. I would like to challenge the jurisdiction of this com-
mittee, first, because I feel it has no legitimate legislative function and,
to the best of my knowledge, not a piece of legislation so far has
emerged as a result of the functioning of the so-called Walters com-
mittee.

Mr. Arens. Would you repeat that, please ?

Mr. Lazar. No legislation to the best of my knowledge has emerged
as a result of these hearings.

The function of this committee, sir, is not yet defined and it is rather
vague.

I also consider, based on the record of this committee, that in ques-
tioning witnesses this committee violates my constitutional rights in
probing my personal beliefs, associations, or affiliations.

Finally, may I say, Mr. Chairman, that it seems to me that this com-
mittee is as outmoded and outdated as is the covered wagon, with this
difference: The covered wagon helped build a good and beautiful
America. Thank you.

Mr. Moulder. Please proceed, Mr. Arens.

Mr. Arens. For the purpose of identification, kindly tell us, Mr.
Lazar, if you have been known by any name other than the name
Lazar.

Mr. Lazar. I shall decline to answer that on the grounds of the first
and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. Have you been known by the name of William Law-
rence ?

Mr. Lazar. I decline on the grounds of the first and the fifth amend-
ments.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend, sir, if you told this com-
mittee truthfully while you are under oath whether or not you have
been known by the name of William Lawrence you would be supply-
ing information which could be used against you in a criminal pro-
ceeding?

Mr. Lazar. Sir, your concept and my concept as to what I appre-
hend are entirely two different things, I challenged the rights of this
committee to probe into my personal affairs.

Mr. Moulder. Counsel asked you whether or not you believe in good
faith that your refusal to answer might tend to incrimininate you and
subject you to a criminal prosecution. That is the question pending.

Mr. Lazar. Mr. Chairman, I am invoking the first and fifth amend-
ments in good faith.

Mr. Scherer. That is the proper answer to that question.

Mr. Arens. ^Vliere were you born, please, sir?

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully request that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer that question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lazar. Mr. Chairman, on advice of counsel I shall state I was
born in the city of Kishinev, Russia.

Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us when you came to the United States.

2492 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

( The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Lazar. 1921.

Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States ?

Mr. Lazar. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Is that by naturalization or derivation?

Mr. Lazar. Naturalization.

Mr. Arens. When and where were you naturalized ?

(The witness conferred witli his counsel.)

Mr. Lazar. I was naturalized in the latter part of 1926 or the early
part of 1927.

Mr. Arens. Where, please, sir?

Mr. Lazar. In the citj^ of Philadelphia.

Mr. Arens. Under what name were you naturalized ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer tliis question on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. At the time of your naturalization were you a mem-
ber of the Connnunist Party ?

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. Now we should like to invite your attention, Mr.
Lawrence

Mr. Lazar. Lazar is the name.

Mr. Arens. Do you deny your name is also Lawrence ?

Mr. Lazar. I said Lazar was the name.

Mr. ScHERER. I think he should answer your question and I ask
the chairman direct the witness to answer the question.

Mr. Needleman. That was already gone into.

Mr. Arens. Counsel knows that his sole and exclusive prerogative
is to advise his client.

Mr. Lazar, the question is: Do you deny that your name is also
Lawrence ?

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.

Mr. Lazar. I have already answered that question previously on
the grounds of the first and the fifth amendments.

Mr. Moulder. Do you mean you decline to answer by claiming and
invoking the first and fifth amendments ?

Mr. Lazar. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. We have a copy of a clipping from the New York
Times of March 8, 1958, entitled "Three State Eeds Resign," and I
am going to read part of it :

Three officials of the New York State Communist Party have resigned their
posts—

I am not reading it all; I am only giving you excerpts. Tlie article
states that among those who are resigning — these three State Reds —
is one "William Lawrence, treasurer.''

Mr. Lazar, we want you to tell us, after you look at that article,
whether or not you are now, at tliis moment, a Communist.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lazar. Mr. Chairman, would you permit me to ask counsel
just how would it serve our Nation if you knew whether I am or am
not a member of the Prohibition Party ?

Mr. Arens. Prohibition Party?

Mr. Lazar. Or any party.

COMlVrUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2493

Mr. Arens. We think there is a distinction to be made between
the Prohibition Party, the Eepiiblican Party, the Democratic Party,
and the Communist Party. We believe there is abundant evidence
developed by cono-ressional committees, developed by the Subversive
Activities Control Board, developed by the Federal Bureau of Investi-
gation, by numerous ])atriotic org-anizations, such as the American
Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, and numerous comparable
organizations, which establishes conclusively that the Communist
Party is not a political party in any sense of the word, but that the
Communist operation in the United States uses this facade behind
which it operates so that it can come before the courts and can come
before congressional committees and assert the position that they are
only a political group, a political organization. That is the dis-
tinction.

Now, would you kindly answer the outstanding question.

Mr. ScHERER. The witness said a few minutes ago it was a covered
wagon that built this Nation. The Communist conspiracy is the cov-
ered wagon which will destroy this Nation.

Mr. Arens. Now, would you kindly answer the question.

Mr. Lazar. Yes; but you still did not tell me how would it benefit
our country if you knew whether I am or am not a member of the
Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer that last outstanding question.

]\Ir. Lazar. You knoAv, Mr. Chairman, this reminds me of a car-
toon that appeared in yesterday's New York Post.

Mr. Moulder. That is not in response to the question. The wit-
ness is directed to answer the question asked by counsel.

Mr. Lazar. In other words, all you want is the truth as you see it.

Mr. Arens. Kindly answer the question.

Mr. Moulder. You know the truth and the question has been asked

Mr. Lazar. What is the question again, please?

Mr. Arens. The question is : Are you now, at this moment, a Com-
munist ?

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.

(Document marked "Lazar Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. I suggest in the presence of tlds witness another witness
be sworn. Mr. Lautner, would you kindly come forward and be
sworn ?

Mr. Lautner. I do.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN LAUTNER

Mr. Arens. Will you kindly identify yourself by name, residence,
and occupation?

IMr. Lautner. My name is John Lautner, and I live in Youngstown,
Ohio. I am a Government consultant.

2494 COMJMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Arens. You have on our record previously given a recitation
of your career in the Communist Party ; have you not?

Mr. Lautner. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. I expect later today to interrogate you at some length
with respect to the use by the Communist conspiracy in the United
States of persons in the entertainment industry

Mr. Xeedlemax. May I say the press is violating your admonition.

Mr. Arens. — for the purpose of promoting communism and the
Communist conspiracy in the United States.

For the moment, I should like to ask you whether or not you have
been at any time in the high echelon of the Communist operation in
the United States.

Mr. Lautner. I was a State functionary in the New York State
organization of the Communist Party. I was also on various national
commissions of the Communist Party. I was district organizer of
the Communist Party. If you call that a higli echelon, then it is.

Mi: Arens. Over what period of time were you in the Communist
operation in the United States?

Mr. Lautner. From 1929 up to 1950.

Mr. Arens. During the course of j^our service in the Communist
Party did you know as a Communist a person by the name of Bill
Lawrence, alias Israel Lazar?

Mr. Lautner. I knew liim as Bill Lawrence in the Communist
Party.

Mr. Arens. Do j^ou see in the courtroom now the person known by
you while you were in the Communist Party as Bill Lawrence?

Mr. Lautner. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly point that person out to the com-
mittee at this time ?

Mr. Lautner. He is sitting at the witness table.

Mr. Needleman. Am I to understand you are going to permit this?

Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, would you kindly tell the committee
briefly what function this man who is seated in the witness chair whom
you knew as Bill Lawrence, performed in the Communist Party ?

Mr. Lautner. When I first became acquainted with Bill Lawrence
he was a section organizer of the Communist Party in New York. He
was a section organizer of Section 10, Queens.

Mr. Moulder. What year was that ?

Mr, Lautner. This was in the years 1933, 1934, and 1935. I was
a section organizer, likewise, in a dilTerent section of the party at that
particular period. We used to go to weekly section organization
meetings for a number of years together. If my recollection is cor-
rect, in 1935, somewhere around 1935, Bill Lawrence became the sec-
tion organizer of the Communist Party in the needle trades; and I
think he was in that capacity at the time I left New York City. I was
in West Virginia from 1936, April, up to the end of 1940. I used to
come in to New York three times a year to national committee
meetings.

At that particular time. Bill Lawrence was functioning in the
capacity of State e^xecutive secretary of tlie Communist Party of
New York State under the leadership of Gil Green. He functioned
in that capacity, I think, up to 1945. At tlie emergency convention
in 1945, there was a leadership change in New York otate and he

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2495

left that capacity as executive secretary of the New York State
organization.

After that he was assigned as the general manager of the Daily
Worker, in 1946 and parts of 1947. He was released from that posi-
tion as general manager of the Daily Worker and he became State
chairman of the Civil Rights Congress in New York.

I was back in New York in 1945, and we sat in quite a number of
meetings in the New York State Organizational Commission of
which I was a member, and on many occasions we discussed the issues
and problems pertaining to the Civil Rights Congress — the question
of finances, raising money for Civil Riglits Congress purposes, the
party support, and involvement in the problems of the Civil Rights
Congress during that particular period.

I left tlie party January 17, 1950. After that period Bill Lawrence
was drawn back into the State leadership again under the leadership
of George Charney Blake, and he was connected with organizational
work in the State organization and later on as treasurer when the
resignation appeared in the New York Times.

That, in brief, is my association and knowledge of Bill Lawrence

Mr. Arens. Although I expect to get into this subject matter with
you at some lengtli later on, I want for the present to have the record
reflect testimony on this issue: Are there Communists who are not
technical members of the organization known as the Communist
Party?

Mr. Lautner. There are Communists. Some are technically mem-
bers of the party. Most of them are wait-and-see Communists. They
are Communists. Technically they do not pay dues. They may make
contributions. They have differences with the present line of the
party, tactical differences, but nothing in substance, just tactical dif-
ferences. They think they have a better approach than the official
line of the Communist Party ; that the official line is a liability today ;
that the Soviet Union made too many mistakes to be palatable to
the America people and the American working class; they would
be much better off if they could shed that later on. Lat^r on they will
meet again but right now it is a liability ; and therefore the present
techniques of the party are wrong and there are a lot of Communists
who have tliis line at the present time.

Mr. Arens. Are they still in the conspiratorial international appa-
ratus for the purpose of communizing the world and of overthrowing
this Government by force and violence ?

Mr. Lautner. Of course they are.

Mr. Arens. I would like to suspend with Mr. Lautner's testimony
at this time and proceed with Mr. Lawrence, and then resume with
Mr. Lautner.

Mr. Moulder. You are temporarily excused. You will be recalled
as a witness, Mr. Lautner.

TESTIMONY OP WILLIAM LAZAR— Resumed

Mr. Arens. Mr. Lawrence Excuse me, Mr. Lazar.

You have just heard the testimony of Mr. Lautner stating in effect
that up until 1950, while he was in the high echelon in the Communist
Party, he knew you as a member of the Communist Party and as a

2496 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

high functionary of the Communist Party. We want to afford you an
opportunity now, sir, while you are under oath to deny that testimony.
Do you care to avail yourself of that opportunity ?

Mr. Lazar. I have too much self-respect to debase myself on testi-
mony of informers and paid stoolpigeons.

Mr. SciiERER. Irrespective of the fact — of course I think Mr. Laut-
ner is a patriotic American and he has rendered a valuable service to
the United States — but irrespective of the fact that you think he
might be a stoolpigeon, is he telling the truth ?
Mr, Lazar. I think he might be.

Mr. ScHERER. Is he telling the truth about you or is he lying to this
committee ?

I assure you if you say he is lying, I am going to ask that the
committee refer both your testimony and his testimony to the De-
partment of Justice, so now you have the opportunity, if this man

you called a stoolpigeon

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer the question on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments.

Mr. ScHERER. I thought you would.

Mr. Arens. Now, sir, kindly tell us what was youi' last prmcipal
employment prior to the employment which you presently have?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. How long did this last principal employment which
you had endure ?

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer that on the gi'ounds of the first and
fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. We started with your present employment. What was
the employment you had prior to this, which we shall call your No. 1
employment ?

Mr. Lazar. Counsel, you are getting me slightly confused. You
are asking in terms of numbers, 1, 25 — frankly, I don't know what
you are talking about.

Mr. Arens. You have had employment prior to your present em-
ployment, is that correct ?

Mr. Lazar. Do you mean was I working ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

Mr. Lazar. Off and on, and when I had a chance to work I worked
and when I got tired I got another job.

Mr. Arens. Did you work as general manager of the Daily Worker,
as Mr. Lautner stated?

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. Were you cultural director or cultural connnissar of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lazar. What is that?

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed and ordered to answer the
question if he knows.

Mr. Lazar. Mr. Chairman, I am sure you expect an intelligent
answer. I must comprehend. I must understand the question. I
am merely asking counsel for clarity.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2497

Mr. Moulder. Do I understand you to say tliat you do not know
what cultural director is, or was, in the Coniinunist Party ?

Mr. Lazar. Yes, I want the counsel to tell me Avhat he is talking
about.

Mr. Moulder. The question is, do you know what the cultural di-
rector was, or is, in the Communist Party ?

Mr. Lazar. No, I do not know.

Mr. Arens. Did you have charge of cultural activities for the
Connnunist Party 'i

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the gromids of the first and
fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Joseph Klein?

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. Joseph Klein swore before this committee in April
1954 that he knew you as a "political commissar for the International
Brigade'' in the Spanish Civil War. Was he in error on that state-
ment ?

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever traveled abroad since you became a citi-
zen of the United States ?

Mr. Lazar. Same answer, sir, fii-st and fifth.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever applied for a United States passport?

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.

JNIr. Arens. Do you now have information regarding the use to
which members of the Communis"t conspiracy place passports in
the operation of the international conspiracy ?

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. We have testimony likewise of a man by the name
of William C. McCuistion that you, while one of the functionaries
in a certain operation of the Communist Party, arranged for a pass-
port for McCuistion to go abroad while he was a functionary in the
Connnunist Party. Was he in error on that testimony ^

Mr. Lazar. Would you permit me for a moment to address the
Chairman ?

Mr. Moulder. Certainly.

Mr. Lazar. I would appreciate it if you would ask the photog-
raphers to not trouble me because I am forced to sit sideways. I
know it is a free country. They have a i-ight to take pictures.

Mr. Moulder. The photographers are instructed and directed not
to take pictures of this witness while testifying.

You may be assured that no pictures will be taken Avhile you are
on the witness stand.

Mr, Arens. If Mr. McCuistion swore before this committee in
1939 that you arranged the matter of his passports, was he in error
on that testimony ?

(The witness confeiTed with his counsel.)

Mr. Lazar. Counsel, I do not believe I know who you are talking
about.

2498 COMMUNISM in the new york area

Mr. Arens. Perhaps it would refresh your recollection if I asked
Mr. Appell to read excerpts of his testimony.

Mr. Lazar. Do you have a picture of him ?

Mr. Aeens. No.

(Document handed to witness.)

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and fifth.

Mr. Arens. Tell us, sir : Have you been active in the development
of an organization known as the National Council of the Arts, Sci-
ences, and Professions ?

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. Can you help this committee by giving us information
respecting present Communist activities in the entertaimnent industry
in the New York area by members presently active in the party?

Mr. Lazar. Would you please repeat that question ?

Mr. Arens. Do you have information now, sir, respecting persons
known by you to be Communists who are in the entertainment
industry ?

(The w^itness conferred w^ith his counsel.)

Mr. Lazar. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that we conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness. I respectfully suggest now if
it meets with the Chairman's approval

Mr. Scherer. I am going to ask that the committee refer the tes-
timony of this witness to the Department of Justice to determine
whether or not denaturalization proceedings can be instituted.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. Call your next witness, Mr.
Arens.

Mr. Arens. Paul Mann, kindly come forward.

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give before this subcommittee of the House Committee on
Un-American Activities of the United States Government will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr Mann. I do.

TESTIMONY OF PAUL MANN (YISROL PAUL MANN LIBMAN), AC-
COMPANIED BY COUNSEL, ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Mann. Would you wait just one moment, please?

My name is Paul Mann. My full legal name is Yisrol Paul Mann
Libman.

]\Ir. Arens. Kindly spell your name.

Mr. Mann. There is a little noise. As soon as you get it quiet I will
be able to speak.

My full name is spelled Yisrol, Y-i-s-r-o-1, Paul, P-a-u-1, Mann,
M-a-n-n, Libman L-i-b-m-a-n.

Mr. Arens. Your residence and occupation, sir, for the purpose of
identification ?

Mr. Mann. I live in New York City. I am an actor, director, and
teacher by occupation.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2499

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Mann, in response to a
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?

Mr. Mann. Yes.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Mann. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Counsel kindly identify yourself.

Mr. Needleman. Isidore G. Needleman, 165 Broadway, New York,
N. Y.

This witness, too, has a short 2-minute statement with respect to
the challenge to the jurisdiction of this committee.

Mr. Mann. I challenge the jurisdiction of the House Committee
on Un-American Activities to question me and to conduct this inves-
tigation of theater people, basing myself on the Supreme Court de-
cision in the Watkins case.

The way to build the American theater is to subsidize it — not to
investigate it. Our country is in need of a national theater, and not
of censorship and blacklist.

In commanding me to appear before it today, the House Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities is ignoring and flagrantly violat-
ing the Supreme Court decision in the Watkins case, which is in its
entirety a strong judicial rebuke to this committee.

I challenge the jurisdiction of this committee to question me upon
all the grounds set forth in the Watkins decision, and specifically
because the Supreme Court points out —

First. That the committee's powers are too vague and undefined.

It would be difficult to imagine a less explicit authorizing resolution. Who
can define the meaning of "un-American"?

Second —

Investigations conducted solely for the personal aggrandizement of the in-
vestigators or to "punish" those investigated are undefensible.

Third. No legitimate and specific legislative purpose is being
served :

Protected freedoms should not be placed in danger in the absence of a clear
determination by the House or the Senate that a particular inquiry is justified
by a si>ecific legislative need.

This committee knows that the Congress is forbidden by the first
amendment of the Constitution to make any laws infringing on the
American theater. Where the Congress cannot legislate, this com-
mittee knows well that it is forbidden to investigate — nevertheless,
you continue to do so.

This committee's absolute disregard of the first amendment and of
the Supreme Court's decision is further demonstrated by the fact
that you had previously compelled me to appear before you in closed
session ; that you had at that time every opportunity to question me,
to conduct your "investigation" — ancl nevertheless you force me
again to appear before you today. Your purpose is plain — again
blatantly disregarding the law, you wish to publicly punish me, to
smear me, and by example to attempt to intimidate other theater
people.

Brooks Atkinson, in the New York Times, says : "Ignorant heresy
hunters and bigoted character assassination" are draining "the vital-
ity out of the American theater."

2500 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

This committee has investigated nearly everybody — from Shirley
Temple at the age of 10 to ex-President Trmnan. You boast of hav-
ing a million names in your files. Only support of, and subservience
to, this committee is accepted by you as your standard of Americanism.

This committee, together with its blacklisting allies, A^Yare, Inc.,
Counterattack, and Red Channels, wants to control the casting for
the American theater. You want your standards to determine who
shall be permitted to act, direct, sing, dance, and play music in the
American theater- — even to dictate policy on plays and productions.

Whoever disagrees with you or does not conform to your way of
thinking is blacklisted, deprived of his livelihood, smeared and pub-
licly inquisitioned, or threatened, like Cyrus Eaton, with a subpena.
All, to a greater or lesser degree, are labeled un-American. "What is
un-American ?", asks the Supreme Court, Anything that this commit-
tee didn't like had been the answer for many, many years. But that
day is now clearly over. The American theater people are sick of this
committee; Actors' Equity rejects all blacklisting; and now with the
Supreme Court decision, the many intimidated people will be
strengthened to stand up and fight you back.

The theater needs no certificate of Americanism to make it legiti-
mate— the legitimate theater already exists and will continue to exist
without this committee. As a member of the American theater I need
no seal of approval from this committee.

My Americanism is demonstrated by the fact that for 23 years I
have worked as a professional actor, director, and teacher in the
theater and my work has been judged and accepted by the American
theater community — the audience, the critics, the producers, and my
fellow artists. I submit myself and my daily work to their standards
of Americanism and not to the McCarthyite standards of this com-
mittee.

Further, my American citizenship had to be earned, and I am proud
to have passed the judicial tests that made me a citizen of the United
States. As a former British subject, born in Canada, I had to study
American history to learn how the Constitution and Bill of Rights
came into being and to understand the rights that I now have as an
American. It is because I understand clearly the meaning of these
historic documents, which define the true American way of life, that
I now stand in opposition to the House Committee on Un-American
Activities.

I refuse to permit the standards and political views of this com-
mittee (composed of politicians elected for a temporary term) to sup-
plant the Constitution of the Ignited States and its Bill of Rights,
and to hack away at the culture of my country.

For all these reasons I demand that my challenge to the jurisdic-
tion of this committee based on tlie Su])reme Court decision in the
Watkins case be recognized — that my subpena be vacated — and that
T be permitted to return to my legitimate work in the free American
tlieater.

Now I would like to hear your answer, sir.

Mr. Moulder. The Chair wishes to announce that in the event
of any more demonstrations on the part of any person in the committee
hearing room in support of or against the committee, or in support of
or against the witness, such person will be removed from the hearing

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2501

room. We will not tolerate such demonstrations either way, for or
against these proceedings.

The witness has been given, I would say, more than the reasonable
time allowed in an opportunity to challenge the jurisdiction of this
committee, but instead of giving legal causes or reasons for challeng-
ing the jurisdiction of the connnittee, he has been permitted to make a
very strong rabblerousing connnunistic speech.

Mr. Mann. I beg your pardon.

Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.

The Chair, Mr. Arens, requests that you advise the witness of the
purpose and objectives of this hearing, and particuhirly of tlie ques-
tions you are about to ask him.

Mr. Arens. Would you permit me to liold that advice until I have
him qualihed as to his appearance under the subjiena '(

Mr. SciiERER. I think the printed record will not disclose the at-
titude of the witness during the time that he made this tirade against
the connnittee. I would like the record to show he was highly con-
temptuous of the committee in his manner, in his voice at the time
he made that statement, reaching the point where he frothed at the
mouth.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in answer to a subpena that
was served upon you by the House Un-American Activities Com-
mittee ?

Mr. Mann. Do I have the right-

Mr. Arens. Will you kindly answer the question ?

Mr. Mann. I wish to answer the question, but Mr. Scherer's char-
acterization and Mr. Moulder's characterization of the contempt and
manner of it are their interpretation of it.

Mr. Scherer. The press saw it and everyone else saw it. You are
an actor and you did a good job.

Mr, Mann. I don't need any critical acclaim from you in that field.
You are incompetent in that field.

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities?

Mr. Mann. I am.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Mann. I am.

Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself ?

Mr. Needleman. I think we went over this before.

Mr. Scherer. I can see your fine handiwork in that statement.

Mr. Needleman. I had nothing to do with drafting that statement
and I resent that insinuation.

Mr. Arens. Do you represent Paul Mann ?

Mr. Needleman. I do. My name is Isidore G. Needleman.

Mr. Arens. I propose to explain your purpose before this com-
mittee and the purpose of the hearings which are presently in process
here in this court room.

Mr. Moulder. Preceding that, would you briefly explain the legis-
lation which this comuiittee has considered and reported and has
been adopted by the Congress of the United States ?

Mr. Arens. "I will touch on that right away, if you please, Mr.
Chairman.

28123—58 3

2502 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

The Committee on Un-American Activities has instigated virtually
all of the security legislation on the Federal books since its inception.
This legislation includes, among other things, the Internal Security
Act of 1950, the Communist Control Act of 1954, numerous amend-
ments to the criminal and espionage code, amendments to the Foreign
Agents Registration Act.

It has, in addition, made numerous recommendations for adminis-
trative action to be taken by the executive departments in undertaking
to cope with this menace of the Communist operation. It has pend-
ing before it at the present time a number of legislative proposals
including H. R. 9937, which was introduced by the chairman of the
committee for the purpose of plugging loopholes in the present law
which copes, or attempts to cope, with the Communist operation in
the United States.

One of the phases of the work of the Committee on Un-American
Activities deals with Communists who have penetrated the entertain-
ment industry and who have used people in the entertainment indus-
try for the purpose of promoting Communist fronts in the further-
ance of the foreign policy not of the United States but of the Soviet
Union, who have collected money from prominent persons in the en-
tertainment industry to be used to finance Communist operations in
the United States.

It is our information, sir, that you are a member of the Com-
munist Party. It is our information, sir, that you have been or are
the owner and operator of an actors workshop.

It is our information that over the course of the last several years,
as will be revealed to you here in exhibits, you have been a promoter
of many of the Communist activities in this vicinity and in this area
and that, on the basis of the extensive experience which you have
had in the Communist Party and in the promotion of Communist
activities, all in the furtherance of the godless, atheistic conspiracy
directed from Moscow, you have information which, if you will tell
this committee, will be valuable to the committee in assessing a great
number of legislative proposals which are pending before the com-
mittee, and, likewise, in assessing the administration, operation, and
function of existing Federal statutes.

Now with that explanation, if it meets with the approval of the
chairman, I should like to ask you, first of all, are you now a member
of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Mann. I will answer your question. It is a difficult question
because it had such a strong and interesting preamble to it which con-
sists, really, of about 20 others, but I imagine you bring them up. I
answer your specific question in this way :

The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination
of every citizen to defend it.

Mr. Moulder. I will rule in this respect. You were given an op-
portunity to make a preamble statement yourself in very violent and
loud terms. The committee lias been tolerant in that respect. We
will not tolerate any exhibitions or displays in response to the ques-
tion.

You can either answer "Yes" or "No", or claim your privileges un-
der the Constitution without a lengthy tirade.

Mr. Mann. Then I decline to answer on the grounds of the first
amendment and furtlier decline to answer under the protection of

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2503

the fifth amendment and I wish to emphasize that there is no infer-
ence to be drawn as to whether I am, was, or was not a member of the
Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. When and wliere ^^'ere you naturalized, please, sir?

Mr. Mann. In the southern district court in 1945, February 28 is
the exact date.

Mr. Arens. Of what year?

Mr. ^LvNN. Of 1945.

Mr. Arens. As of the time of your naturalization, were you a mem-
ber of the Conununist Party ?

Mr. Mann. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previ-
ously stated, the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. 'VVliere were you born ?

Mr. Mann. I was born in Toronto, Canada.

Mr. Arens. When ?

Mr. Mann. December 2, 1913.

Mr. Arens. When did you enter the United States for permanent
residence ?

Mr. Mann. May I ask the specific legitimate purpose of that
question ?

Mr, Arens. Yes, sir. I will be as specific as possible. Among
other things, the Committee on Un-American Activities has pending
before it legislation which would plug certain loopholes in the immi-
gration and naturalization laws.

In order to ascertain factual situations which can be applied and
appraised against the proposals which are pending in the committee, it
is of keen interest and, indeed, of necessity, that the committee acquire
information respecting people who are Communists or have been
Communists who have been processed in the immigration system.

It is our information that you are a Communist. It is our informa-
tion that you were probably a Communist at the time you were natu-
ralized as a citizen of the United States.

Therefore, it behooves this committee in undertaking to develop
factual information in this case, to be used in connection ^vith other
cases of similar content, to ascertain whether or not you were a Com-
munist as of the time you came into the United State^s.

To do so, we have to find out when you came into the United States.
Now, kindly answer the question.

Mr. Tuck. The record should show that the witness has been in the
hearing room since 10 o'clock this morning and has heard statements
made as to the objectives and purposes of this committee.

Mr. Needleman. The witness may have been in the room and not
paid any attention to that.

Mr. Arens. Your sole and exclusive responsibility is to advise your
client. Your prerogative is not to advise the committee.

Mr. IVIann. In explanation, I have paid very close attention and
very respectful attention, as I should to this committee, and I have not
been able to understand, frankly, some of the questions, and I really
do not even quite see yet the answer of this, because I asked the specific
legislative purpose of this and it is my understanding that the director
here has said that in relationship to other cases — is that in relationship
to cases of legislation or what?

Mr. Arens. Cases of Communists who have been violating the
immigration laws, who have been making false affidavits in attempting

2504 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

to procure naturalization, who have been lying to the State Depart-
ment in order to procure passports and the like.

Now, sir, would you kindly answer the question, "Wlien did you
enter the United States ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. ScHERER. I have an additional reason for wanting to know
it, particularly in your case. I am going to see that the Department
of Justice gets the transcript of this testimony. I am going to make
a personal request, even if the committee should decide not to, that the
Department of Justice determine whether or not denaturalization
proceedings should be commenced in your case because of your activi-
ties in the Communist Party.

Mr. Mantv. Is that a legislative function of this committee?

Mr. ScHERER. I said that is the additional reason of this com-
mittee member

Mr. Mann. You are threatening me.

Mr. ScHERER. You can take it as you like.

Mr. Mann. I will stand on my privileges of the first and fifth
amendments. I decline to ansAver the question on the first and ap-
pearing before this committee, I have a reasonable apprehension that
the answer may tend to incriminate me and so I avail myself of the
protection of the fifth.

Dean Gr is wold of the Harvard Law School stated that one of the
purposes of the fifth amendment is to protect the innocent and tak-
ing it bears no inference of guilt.

Mr. Arens. Will you tell us whether or not you have ever applied
for a United States passport ?

Mr. Mann. What is the legislative purpose of that question?

Mr. Arens. I think it is very clear. The Committee on Un-Amer-
ican Activities has presently pending before it H. R. 9937 which,
among other things, would preclude the issuance of passports to
members of the international Communist conspiracy.

Mr. Mann. Members of the international Communist conspiracy?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. And for the purpose of developing factual in-
formation, we would like to know whether you have ever applied for
a United States passport.

Kindly answer the question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Mann. I will take the first and the fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you a photostatic repro-
duction of an application for a passport issued to you January 20,
1950, under the name of Yisrol Paul Mann Libman

Mr. Mann. That is the name I gave you before.

Mr, Arens. The application states, among otlier things, that you
want to go to England, France, Italy, Poland, and Israel for the pur-
pose of studying theater production methods, to find plays for possible
American production, and the like.

Kindly look at the photostatic reproduction of this application and,
if you please, sir, at the signature appearing on the second page. Then
tell this committee whether or not that signature is your signature.

(Tlie document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Moulder. Let the record show that the witness and counsel
are examininjr the document which was handed to them.

COMMTJNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2505

Mr. Mann. I decline to answer that qnestion on the ground of the
first and fifth amendments.

(Docmnent marked "Mann Exhibit No. l" and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Yon will observe the countries to be visited appear as
follows: England, France, Italy, Poland, Israel. The purpose is:
To study theater productions; to find plays for possible American
production.

With that in mind, I should like to lay before you a thermofaxed
reproduction of a photograph on page 9 of Czechoslovakian Life of
August 1950. Under the photograph appears the following language :
"Delegates to the Fifth International Film Festival held at Karlovy
Vary."

Reading from left to right are a number of people, including an
actor and theater director, Paul Mann, United States, and there is a
picture at the right that looks very much like your physical appear-
ance today.

Kindly look at that picture and tell us whether or not you did go
to Czechoslovakia and did participate in that film festival as recited
in the language appearing under that photograph.

Kindly look at the exhibit and the language and respond to the
question which is outstanding.

Mr. Mann. I must decline to answer on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.

(Document marked "Mann Exhibit No. 2" and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
while you are under oath, that notwithstanding that you submitted
an application to the Department of State to travel abroad and did
not list Czechoslovakia as one of the countries to be visited, and did
not list the purpose of participating in the Fifth International Film
Festival, you did, in the year 1950, go to Czechoslovakia on a United
States passport as a Comnumist and did participate in the Fifth Inter-
national Film Festival.

If that is not true, please deny it while 3'ou are under oath.

Mr. Mann. The first and fifth amendments.

Mr. MouiJJER. You claim the privilege of the first and fifth?

Mr. Mann. Yes. I am accepting your words. I am just declining.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that these exhibits
be incorporated by reference into the record.

Mr. Moulder. So ordered.

Mr. Arens. As of the 10th day of January 1950 — which is the date
the passport application was sworn to — as of that date, were you a
member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Mann. I decline to answer that question on my privileges under
the first amendment and my constitutional privileges under the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been in i-eceipt of a communication from
the Department of State requesting you to surrender your United
States passport ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Mann. The fifth amendment on the answer to that question.

Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Mann, I display to you a photostatic repro-
duction of a letter dated January 20, 1954, which was received by the

2506 COMIVIUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Department of State on a letterhead of Yisrol Libman, 36 West 84th
Street, New York. Interlined between the name "Yisrol" and "Lib-
man" appear the words "Paul Mann."

Gentlemen : As requested I am sending you our passports ; numbered 173054
in the name of Jennie Shaludel Libman, known also as Ann Shepherd Mann (my
wife) — and mine, 1TG643, in my full name, Yisrol Paul Mann Libman —

and it is signed, "Yisrol Paul Mann Libman."

Kindly look at the photostatic reproduction of this letter and tell
this committee whether or not that bears a true and correct reproduc-
tion of your signature.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Mann. I will take my privilege under the fifth amendment.

(Document marked "Mann Exhibit No. 3," and retained in committee
files.)

Mr. Arens. I observe that the hour is now 20 minutes after 12. We
have still a number of questions to ask of this witness, and I appre-
ciate the fact that we might keep the committee here an inordi-
nate period of time before we conclude. Therefore, I suggest the
committee recess at this time, and we will resume with this witness
after the luncheon period.

Mr. Needleman. May I be heard ?

Mr. Moulder. Certainly.

Mr. Needleman. I have a matter at 2 o'clock and that is the reason
I ask the indulgence of this committee.

Mr. Moulder. All right, we will proceed.

Mr. Arens. I believe we can finish in 15 minutes.

Are you the owner and operator of the Actors Workshop ?

Mr. Mann. In my specific challenge to this committee, which was,
by the way, founded on the Watkins decision and was not a harangue
as has been indicated, I said that one of the things that happens is
that you wish to smear people and that you ask questions which have
no relevance. I would like to know the specific relevance of that
question.

Mr. Tuck. We have already been subjected to two, long, contuma-
cious speeches by this witness and I request that he be directed to
make his answer responsive to the question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness has heard the statement made by Gov-
ernor Tuck and you are so directed and ordered to make a direct
response to the question.

Mr. Mann. I decline to answer this question on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. We display to you now, an original advertisement,
"Paul Mann Actors Workshop. Courses in acting technique; pro-
fessional actors workshop theatre, 1129 Avenue of the Americas, New
York 36, N. Y. Day or evening classes. Enrollment limited."

Kindly look at that advertisement

Mr. Mann. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
first and fifth amendment and if that is not interference in the theater
and teaching the theater, I do not know what it is.

(Document marked "JNIann Exhibit No. 4," and retained in com-
mittee files. )

Mr. Arens. Tell this committee whether or not that advertisement
restates the facts in connection with your activities with this work-
shop.

COMMUNISM m THE NEW YORK AREA 2507

Mr. Moulder. The witness has examined the document.

Mr. Mann. I refuse to answer on the grounds stated.

Mr. Arens. Wliere are you employed ?

Mr. Mann. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Are you connected with the Neighborhood Playhouse ?

Mr. Mann. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. What is the Neighborhood Playhouse ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Mann. You have the answer to that in the record, as I recall.
We had a previous hearing.

Mr. Arens. Would you put it on this record ? What is the Neigh-
borhood Playhouse?

Mr. IVIann. I am a little bit apprehensive about what you are
trying

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. ]Mann. The Neighborhood Playhouse is one of the most dis-
tinguished names in the history of the American theater.

Mr. Arens. Tell us a word about it. What is it ?

Mr. Mann. I think it is a matter of public record in any theater
book.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly accommodate the committee.

Mr. Mann. The Neighborhood Playhouse has been in the history
of the American theater, a great and important theater, and that, I
think, is sufficient to answer your question as to what is the Neighbor-
hood Playhouse.

Mr. Arens. Have you belonged to the Neighborhood Playiiouse?

You see, it is our information that this is a fine group or has been a
fine group and we want to know about Communists who have been
penetrating it. You have been identified witli

Mr. Mann. The first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. Are you connected, or have you been connected, with
the Voice of Freedom Committee ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Mann. I don't recall.

Mr. Arens. We should like to displa}^ to you, sir, a thermofaxed
reproduction of two items from the Communist Daily Worker, witli
reference to the Voice of Freedom Committee in which the name of
Paul Mann appears as one of the speakers, in one instance; and as one
of the actors in another instance.

Kindly look at those two exhibits as Mr. Appell displays them to
you and tell us whether or not the information contained in them is
true and correct.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Mann. First and fifth amendments.

Would it be correct for me to say — I am not trying to hamper any-
thing— but there are so many lists of so many organizations, and many
of these organizations have very honorable purposes, but, nevertheless,
they are considered by this committee to be subversive, and I am ap-
prehensive before this committee of involving myself, in view of the
things you said before about trying to make some kind of master file
or list — I don't remember exactly what you said.

2508 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Arens. Just answer this question, if you please, sir. Accord-
ing to one of the exhibits from the Communist Daily Worker you
were one of the actors in The Case of the Loaded Mike. Did you get
paid for that performance or was that a nonpaid production ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Mann. I am compelled to take the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. You are under no compulsion at all to take the first and
fifth amendments.

Mr. Mann. It is quite plain that one must be apprehensive of many
things before this committee and I am apprehensive and I am taking
the first and fifth amendments.

(Documents marked "Mann Exhibits Nos. 5 and 6," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Have you expressed yourself with reference to this
committee in the form of any trip that you have taken to Washington
to protest the committee ?

Mr. Mann. I would like to ask you, would there be anything wrong
in an American going to Washington to protest this committee or any
committee of the United States ?

Mr. Arens. Not unless it were controlled and dominated by the
Communist Party.

Mr. Mann. I am under the dictates of my consicence, and my
Americanism has been decided by immigration authorities and the
people in my field and I do not consider you as an authority per se.

You have your opinions and I have opinions, and I have a right
to so do.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question and
not argue with counsel.

Mr. Arens. Kindly answer this question, sir. Are you identified in
this exhibit which Mr. Appell will now display to you as one of a
number of persons whose picture appears in this publication who was
going in a delegation to Washington to protest the Un-American
Activities investigations dealing with the Communists in HollyAvood?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Mann. I will take the first and fifth amendments.

(Document marked "Mann Exhibit No. 7'', and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Did the Communist Party, to your certain knowledge,
organize and promote this delegation which went to Washington mas-
querading as patriotic citizens to protest the Un-American Activities
Committee ?

Could you answer that question ?

Mr. Mann. It is a difficult question to answer because you have a
lot of editorial comment in it so I do not know what the question is.

Would you simplify the question ?

Mr. Arens. Did the Communist Party organize the delegation that
went to Washington to protest the Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities during the time of the investigation of the Communists in
Hollywood ?

Mr. Mann. I don't know.

Mr. Arens. Who asked you to go ?

Mr. Mann. I take the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist at that time ?

Mr. Mann. First and fifth amendments.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2509

Mr. Arens. Have you been in Poland in the course of the last few
years ?

Mr, Mann. In the course of the last few years ?

Mr. Arens. Say, since 1950, have you been in Poland ?

Mr. Mann. What is the legislative purpose of that question?

Mr, Arens. The use of passports by Communists. It has been ex-
plained repeatedly.

Mr. Mann. First and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you now, sir, if you please,
a photostatic reproduction from the Daily Compass of October 16,
1950. This article states Paul Mann, actor, director, and teacher of
acting, and his wife had just returned from England, France, Italy,
Czechoslovakia, and Poland.

The article also states that Paul Mann, while in England, was in
consultation with a man by the name of Sean O'Casey.

Mr. Mann, What was that last name ?

Mr. Arens. Sean O'Casey.

Mr. Mann. Pie is one of the great people of the theater, and the
correct pronunciation of his name is Shawn O'Casey.

Mr. Arens. When did you last see him ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Mann. I will take the first and fifth amendments.

(At this point, Mr. Moulder left the hearing room.)

Mr. Arens. Did you bring back greetings from Mr. O'Casey with
respect to the Comnuniists who were in jail at that time ?

Mr. Mann. I will take the first and fifth amendments.

(Document marked "Mann Exhibit No. 8," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr, Arens. Mr. Chairman, w^e have other exhibits of similar ac-
tivities by this witness. However, in view of the time element, I
respectfully suggest the staff interrogation of this witness be con-
cluded and I suggest, if it meets with the approval of the committee,
we recess for hmch.

(Mr. Moulder returned to the hearing room.)

Mr. ScHERER. Mr, Mann, when you made your application for a
passport on January 10, 1950, did you tell the truth in that appli-
cation ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Mann. Would you please restate the question ?

Mr. ScHERER. When you made your application for passport to
the Government of the United States, you swore to it, did you not ?
You took oath on January 10, 1950, that the statements contained
therein were true.

Mr. Mann. I am taking the fifth amendment,

Mr. ScHERER. Would you tell us whether you swore to it?

Mr. Mann. I am taking the fifth amendment.

Mr. ScHERER. The fact is that you lied under oath ?

Mr. Mann. AVhat you say, sir, is not a fact just because you say it.
I have taken the fifth amendment on your question.

Mr. ScHERER. When I say that you lied in this application, am I
telling the truth ?

Mr. Mann. I am taking the fifth amendment, Congressman
Scherer.

Mr. ScHERER. That is all.

2510 coMJvruNiSM in the new york area

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused and the hearings will be re-
cessed until 2 o'clock in this room.

Those witnesses who were summoned for this morning will return
here at 2 o'clock.

(^yiiereupon, at 12 : 40 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 2 p. m. the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION, WEDNESDAY, JUNE 18, 1958

Mr. Tuck (presiding). The committee will please come to order.
We will now resume this hearing.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, would you please come forward and
take the witness stand.

ISIr. Tuck. The witness was sworn this morning.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN LAUTNER— Resumed

Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, this morning you testified very briefly
with respect to your own personal background and career in the
Communist Party.

During the course of your career in the Communist Party, did
you have occasion to become acquainted with the structural organiza-
tion of the Communist Party insofar as it was designed to penetrate
cultural groups and organizations in the country, particularly people
in tlie entertainment industry ?

Mr. Lautner. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us if you please, sir, the structural setup
of the Communist apparatus for this objective.

Mr. Tuck. Under the rules of the House of Representatives, pic-
tures are not permitted to be taken while a witness is testifying. That
is not necessarily my view of what is appropriate but, nevertheless,
that is the rule under which we are operating.

Mr. Lautner. First of all, let me say that I taught in Commmiist
Party classes the organizational structure of the Communist Party
on numerous occasions in the years of 1947, 1948, and parts of 1949.
I testified about that on many occasions.

However, in this instance to answer your question, there was a
deviation from the general structure of the party in the New York
State organization with which I was acquainted as to service and
which maintained control and discipline in that segment of the party
that comes under the heading of culture.

In the New York State organization, there was a suborganization
known as the Cultural Division of the Communist Party.

This Cultural Division was not a part of any county organization
in New York City. It was directly responsible to, and under the lead-
ership and control of, the New York State apparatus. New York State
organization of the Communist Party.

The head of this Cultural Division in 1947 and 1948 and 1949 was
a person by the name of Dave Golden. The two other full-time
functionaries in this Cultural Division were Lionel Berman, who was
the organizational secretary of the Cultural Division, and Dave
Gordon, who was the educational director of the Cultural Division.

This Cultural Division was responsible, in reporting abovit its activi-
ties, directly to the State Organizational Commission and the State

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2511

board. In the State Organizational Commission, of which I was a
member for a number of years, Lionel Berman attended these meetings
and every time problems of such nature came up in which the Cultural
Division should have taken a part, certain assignments were delegated
to him to carry out in the Cultural Division.

Mr. Arens. What was the purpose of the Cultural Division of the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Lautner. The purpose of the Cultural Division was a two-fold
purpose ; lirst, to carry out the general policies of the party in the field
of culture ; two, to raise finances for the party.

As far as carrying out the general activities of the party, the Cul-
tural Division and its members and various sections and groups such
as performers, musicians, and various other groups in the Cultural
Division, carried out the general policies of the party to the best of
their ability and keeping an eye always to develop a security conscious-
ness in order to make their work more effective in the Cultural
Division.

As far as finances are concerned, I will give you an example of just
exactly what happened.

In 1949 we had a State board meeting at which we projected the
New York State organization budget of $650,000 for the coming year.
This $650,000 was then split up and certain responsibilities to raise
this money were relegated to Kings County, Queens County, et cetera,
but the Cultural Division was not a part of this raising of this $650,000.

A\liatever was raised by the Cultural Division went straight into
the State oifice and no county organization could benefit by it, which
was a very substantial amount. So, out of $650,000 in 1949, the
counties could take off so much percentage from what they raised, and
what remained went to the State treasury, but no county could claim
any part of the money of the Cultural Division, and it was one of the
most lucrative fields for the party to raise money at that particular
tune.

Mr. Arens. How did the members of the Communist Party have
a connection with the Cultural Division ? What was the line of com-
mand ?

Mr. Lautner. First of all, certain security measures were applicable
there. For instance, a party member was recruited by an organiza-
tion belonging to any county in the City of New York — Kings County
or Manhattan. They could not get into the Cultural Division. That
was one of the security measures.

Being chairman of the Review Commission, we had numerous cases
on review, complaints by individuals, musicians and artists, who
joined the Communist Party and they were members in some com-
munity branch somewhere and they made requests to be transferred
into the Cultural Division, and these requests were turned back by the
members of the party in that particular craft where this individual
was pursuing to enter.

Only by request from the Cultural Division or its suborganizational
level or a group or section, only this way could a member of the arts
or sciences or cultural, could he get into the Cultural Division. That
was one of the security measures set up by the party.

Mr. Arens. When this committee investigates communism and
Communist activities in a labor organization, we are accused, of
course, of investigating the working people and investigating unions.

2512 COAOIUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Wlien we trace a "Commie" into a school we are accused of investi-
gating schools. We are accused of investigating textbooks and
authors. When we investigate entertainment, we are accused of
being anticultural.

Tell us from the background of your experience, how the Com-
munists in the cultural field serve the cause of the international
Communist conspiratorial apparatus.

Mr. Lautner. First of all, members of the Cultural Division are
members of the Communist Party as such. The only special con-
sideration that they do receive is one of security, one of concealing
their identity as party members and the reason for that is a very
simple one.

If a party member in any of tlie cultural activities, whether it be
theater or television or radio or movie or whatever it is, if his identity
would be known as a party member, his eft'ectiveness to do Com-
munist work would be practically nil. Therefore, concealing party
membership adds so much more to the effectiveness of that individual
in carrying out Communist Party Avork.

But he is a party member and he must carry out the policies of
the party. The party policies — tactical policies today — are very
closely linked with that of the tactical policies of all Communist
Parties, whether it be in the United States or wherever else.

All Communist Parties carry out the policies, first of all, dedicated
to the defense of the Soviet Union and carry out the best interests
in their respective countries of the Soviet Union and of the Soviet
Communist doctrine.

Mr. Arens. Based upon the experience that you had in the Com-
munist Party, can you give us some instances which occurred during
your period of service in the party in which people in the entertain-
ment or cultural field served to promote the Communist Party line?

Mr. Lautner. Yes. For example, the Hitler-Stalin pact was one.
There, the party membership was to explain away the deal made
between Hitler and Stalin in 1939. They blamed Chamberlain and
they blamed Daladier, but not Stalin, for the treachery against the
so-called anti -Fascist forces throughout the world when he made his
pact with Hitler.

Later on, I recall the opening up of the second front campaign,
which was a party campaign. All party members including mem-
bers of tlie Cultural Division carried out that campaign.

In 1947, for example, when the Cominform was formed and a re-
port was made establishing the two world camps, all party members
carried out that campaign.

In the early 1930's they all carried out the anti-Fascist struggle
directed from the Communist International at the time.

In 1948 and 1949, the party as a whole was fighting for civil liber-
ties and was fighting for interests of the Soviet L^nion against the
interests of their own country. When one talks about a political
party, one presupposes that a political party in our country is dedi-
cated to the improvement and to advancement of our country as a
whole. That is the platform of a political party. They try to create
that kind of a platform and sell it to the American people.

Mr. Arens. Is the Communist Party, on the basis of your extensive
background and experience, a political party?

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2513

Mr. Lautner. Not in that sense, no, because they are dedicated first
of all, to the defense of the Soviet Union at all times, and as recently
as even the last issue of Political Affairs — and this is 1958, June

Mr. Arens. Identify Political Aff'airs.

Mr. Lautner. It is the tlieoretical organ of the Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. Proceed.

Mr. Lautner. Here is an article on the peace manifesto and the 12
party declarations. This manifesto is issued by the National Execu-
tive Committee of the Communist Party of the United States of Amer-
ica. Among other things it points out that they wholeheartedly agree
with tlie 64 Comnnmist Party declarations in Moscow, to which Khru-
shchev made his report on the great Soviet Socialist revolution; and
they also welcome and equally wholeheartedly support the 12-party
declaration which declaration accepts, underlines, and asks all par-
ties to support the primacy of the Soviet party among all other
parties, so the Soviet Party is the ruling party.

There is no equality among the parties, which was one of the issues
around which a factional struggle developed in this country. As late
as 1958, this C^ommunist Party over here subscribes to the 12-party
declaration which accepts the primacy of the Soviet party, the de-
fense of the Soviet Union and accepts the program laid down at the
61:-party conference at the 4()th anniversary of the "great October
Socialist revolution,"

Therefore, in no sense can one say that the Comnumist Party is a
political party. At best, one can say that tliis party, so-called, is an
adjunct to the foreign policy of the Soviet foreign commissariat and
also a part of that world conspiracy which is dedicated to bringing
about the downfall of free democracies, the Western democracies, and
the free world.

Mr. Arens. We have been seeing in the papers over the course of
some several months about a reduction in the technical membership
in the Communist Party.

First of all may I inquire of you, based upon your experience in
the Communist operation, whether oi' not the menace of communism
and the Communist program and Comnumist activity in the United
States bear any relationship whatsoever to the inimber of technical
members in an entity known as the Communist Party.

Mr. Lautner. It does not, for this simple reason, because it is
never the numerical strength that determines the influence and lead-
ership of a party.

I will give you examples: In 1945, the Hungarian Communist
Party had around 3,000 members of whicli over 1,200 came from
Moscow. By 1947, because of a prevailing situation and world condi-
tions, that 3,000 membership by 1947 captured the country and that is
the lesson of all of these so-called democracies behind the Iron Curtain.

The lesson is in Poland, in East (jermany, in Czechoslovakia, in
Rumania, and elsewhere in the country.

Mr. Arens. When did they last have a reregistration for wdiat we
characterize as technical Communist Party membei-s?

]Mr. Lautner. To my personal knowledge the last registration we
had in which I participated was the 1948-49 registration, on the basis
of which the official figure of registered paity members was 60,000;
30,000 in New York and 30,000 elsewhere.

2514 coMMuisriSM in the new york area

Mr. Arens. Are these Communists now, in every sense, foreign
agents on American soil ?

Mr. Lautner. For many reasons, they are, because if any one sin-
cerely broke, honestly broke, with the Communist Party, they would
be cooperating with those forces that are fighting the dictatorships,
that are fighting the Soviet domination in the new democracies.

They would come out and they would come forward and would help
our Government in every way to bring about understanding and unity
in this country in the face of the danger confronting us today.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your experience in the Communist
Party, did you acquire information respecting the policies of the party
which are imposed upon comrades, with respect to hiring or promot-
ing fellow members within the cultural field ?

Mr. Lautner. That was a policy not only in the cultural field but
in every field — in every field in which the Communist Party had any
influence or any friends to help another comrade to get along and to
entrench himself, to strengthen the party ; if it is a factory, to build
a factory unit branch; if it is an office, to build a party numerically
there.

In all phases of human relationship in which the party was in-
volved, it was always to advance the party in order to bring in others
and build the party with new members.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that that would conclude our
interrogation of Mr. Lautner at this time.

Mr. Tuck. Do you have any questions, Mr. Scherer ?

Mr. Scherer. No, sir.

Mr. Tuck, Thank you very much, Mr. Lautner.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Earl Jones, kindly come forward.

Mr. Delany. The witness does not desire to have his picture taken
at any stage of this proceeding.

Mr. Tuck. The Chair respectfully requests that no pictures be
taken at this point. I am informed that the rule is not to allow pic-
tures to be taken after he is sworn.

Will you raise your right hand ? In the testimony you are about
to give, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Jones. So help me God.

TESTIMONY OF EAEL JONES, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
HUBEET T. DELANY

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr, Jones, jVIv name is Earl Jones, I live at 19 Commerce Street,
and I am an actor.

Mr. Arens, You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities?

Mr, Jones. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

]VIr, Jones, Yes.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2515

Mr. Delany. My name is Hubert T. Delany, 52 Broadway, New
York City.

Mr. Arens. "\'Vliere are you emploj^ed ?

Mr. Jones. At the present time I am not employed.

Mr. Arens. Where were you hist employed in the acting held'?

Mr. Jones. I decline to answer on the basis of the hrst and fifth
amendments afforded me, as it might tend to incriminate me.

Mr. Arens. Were you in the play, Strange Fruit?

Mr, Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Were you in the TV presentation, Green Pastures?

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Were you in the ])lay, The Iceman Cometh?

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Delany. So that the record may be clear — the witness seems
to be nervous. May the record show that he is declining to answer
under the rights ali'orded him under the first amendment and the
fifth amendment, because he does not want, among other things, to
be compelled to be a witness against himself.

Mr. Arens. We understand that. Counselor.

Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Jones. I will have to decline to answer on the same grounds as
before, sir.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Paul Robeson ?

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds
as before.

Mr. Arens. We would like to display to you now, a thermofaxed
reproduction of an article respecting annual citation awards set up
for Negro leaders. According to this article, Paul Robeson was the
principal speaker and you were one of the participants at this meet-
ing which took place here in New York City some few years ago.

Kindly look at this article and tell this committee whether or not
you are the Earl Jones referred to in that article as one of the par-
ticipants in that enterprise.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Jones. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer on the same grounds.

(Document marked "Earl Jones Exhibit No. 1," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. What is "New Playwrights, Inc."?

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. I have here a photostatic reproduction of an article
from the Communist Daily Worker (August 30, 1950), which will be
displayed to you in just a moment in which your picture appears un-
der the caption, "Earl Jones in Howard Fast Play." It states Earl
Jones has been cast as a Jewish labor organizer in the Howard Fast
play. The Hammer, which New Playwrights is presenting.

Kindly look at this exhibit, if you please, and tell this committee
whether you are accurately described here as the participant in the
cast of this play by Howard Fast.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. While you are looking at that, may I call your atten-
tion to another article in the Communist Daily Worker (February

2516 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

1-i, 1951), in wliich your picture appears with respect to your ap-
pearance in the above production of New Plaj'wriglits, Inc.

Kindly look at this picture and see if you could refresh your recol-
lection from it. Then give us such information as I ma}^ hereafter
elicit from you with reference to this particular organization.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Jones. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer this question on the
same grounds.

(Documents marked "Earl Jones Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3,'' and re-
tained in committee files. )

Mr. xVrens. Have you, in the course of the last few years, been very
active in promoting the fight against the "Smith Act persecutions"?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Here is an article about 19 notables who are fighting
the "Smith Act persecutions" which lists among others yourself. Earl
Jones, the actor, as a participant in one of these rallies held here in
this community at the United Mutual Auditorium.

Kindly look at this photostatic reproduction of this article and
tell this committee whether or not that refreshes your recollection
Avitli reference to your participation as an actor in this particular
enterprise.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Jones. I never knew I was a notable, sir, but I must respect-
fully decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not you were a sponsor in
this particular enterprise ?

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same gi'ounds.

(Document marked "Earl Jones Exhibit No. 4," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Can you tell the committee who solicited you to par-
ticipate and lend your talents in this enterprise on behalf of these
Communists who had been convicted?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of who solicited you to lend
your talents in this enterprise ?

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds
as before.

Mr. Arens. I have a clipping from the Sunday Worker (July 17,
1949) , to which I want to invite your attention, "Broadway Stars Back
Rights Parley." It states : "A group of Broadway stars, musicians,
and writers today issued an appeal to their colleagues in cultural fields
to join with them in supporting the Bill of Rights Conference Satur-
day and Simday at the Henry Hudson Hotel." Among the signers
are a number of persons — I would estimate a dozen — characterized as
Broadway stars who lent their prestige and talent. One is identified
here as Earl Jones.

Please look at that article and see if it refreshes your recollection
of lending your name and your prestige to that particular enterprise.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2517

Mr. JoxES. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer on the same
grounds.

(Document marked "Earl Jones Exhibit No. 5," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. I have additional exhibits here with your name listed
as a participant in front activities on behalf of the Communist Party.
Have you, over the course of the last several years, knowingly and
consciously lent your name and your influence and your prestige as
an actor to Communist causes in the Greater New York area ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Jones. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. I respectful!}' suggest, Mr. Chairman, that would con-
clude the interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Tuck. The witness is excused.

(The witness was excused.)

Mr. Arexs. Will Lee, kindly come forward.

Mr. Tuck. In the testimony you are about to give, do you solemnly
swear to tell the truth, the wjiole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?

Mr. Lee. I do, sir.

TESTIMONY OF WILL LEE (WILLIAM LUBOVSKY), ACCOMPANIED
BY COUNSEL, DAVID SCEIBNEE

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

}Jr. Lee. My name is Will Lee. 1 live at 201 East 38th Street, New
York, and I am an actor, a teacher of acting, and a director.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities?

Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. And you are accompanied by counsel ^

Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Mr. Scribner. David Scribner, 15 William Street, New York City.

Mr. Arens. Have you been known by any name other than Will
Lee ?

Mr. Lee. As I told you in closed session, my given name is William
Lubovsky.

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ?

Mr. Lee. At the present time, as reported to you in closed session. I
am now unemployed.

Mr. Arens. Where Avere you last employed ?

Mr. Lee. My last area of employment has been with the Amei'ican
Theater Wing school, a training area for developing actors.

Mr. Arens. How long were you employed by the American Theater
Wing, Inc. ?

Mr. Lee. As I informed you in closed session, I have been employed
with the American Theater Wing off and on for about 5 years or
maybe a little longer.

Mr. Arens. Where is that located ?

Mr. Lee. It is on West iSth Street. It is in the Bronx, t think it
is 35 west. I am not sure.

28123—58 4

2518 coMMxosriSM m the new york area

Mr. Arens. In what capacity were you employed there ?

Mr. Lee. As I mentioned to you, as an instructor in acting.

Mr. Arens. How long did you instruct in acting at the American
Theater Wing?

Mr. Lee. I thought I just said off and on for over 5 years.

Mr. Arens. What was your employment immediately prior to your
employment with the American Theater Wing ?

Mr. Lee. If you want my theatrical history, I will be happy to give
it to you because this is what I feel you are going for and I would be
more than willing, which I did yesterday.

Mr. Arens. Perhaps you could summarize your principal employ-
ment.

Mr. Lee. I feel all of my employment has been very principal and
I would like to give it to you.

Mr. Arens. Please do, then.

Mr. Lee. I appeared at a reading of Spring Out of Season at
Carnegie Hall in November of 1957. I did World of Sholem Alechem
at the Bucks County Playhouse in June 1956. I played in Heaven
Can Wait in August of 1955. I played in Born Yesterday in Play-
house Park in July 1955.

In October of 1954, I did a 5-week tour of the World of Sholem
Alechem. In August of 1954, I played Golden Boy at the Playhouse
in the Park. I presume you heard this.

Mr. Arens. Yes. Golden Boy was your last performance ?

Mr. Lee. In October 1954, 1 worked in the film Little Fugitive. In
1952 I appeared on Broadway in The Shrike. It is about a bird that
picks your brains out.

In 1951, I directed A Streetcar Named Desire, to Circle Theater in
Atlantic City, the first time in the round.

In 1947 I performed in such films as They Live by Night, Casbah,
A Song Is Born, Life of Riley, and Letter From an Unknown
Woman.

In 1945, 1944, and 1943, and 1942 I was in the United States Army,
part of the Special Services. I have received 2 citations from the
United States Army, 1 for a VJ-Day program which I directed at a
stadium in Manila, and also for a 3-day festival that I organized on
Leyte.

Mr. Arens. What was the period of time when you had this festival
for the Army and directed this play for the Army ?

Mr. Lee. 1945 in Manila, September of 1945.

In 1942 I appeared in Lilies of the Valley, a play written by Ben
Hecht, and also a play written by Paul Vincent Carroll called, The
Strings, My Lord, Are False. In 1941 I was in Whistling in the
Dark, Temporary Bride, Babes on Broadway, His Honor, and Ball
of Fire.

In 1940 I appeared in Night Music, and "Heavenly," Expressed the
White-haired Boy.

In 1939, I was in Family Portrait and Time of Your Life.

In 1938, I was in Golden Boy, on Broadway, in London, and on tlie
road.

In 1937, I was in Boy Meets Girl, Busman's Holiday, and Place
in the Sun.

In 1936, 1 was associated with the Federal Theater and Libby news-
paper and also appeared in Johnny Johnson on Broadway.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2519

This is the extent of my professional life.

Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir. Now, kindly tell us, are you now, or
have you ever been, a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Lee. I have been born in Brooklyn ; and in Brooklyn, in Public
School 144 that I went to, I was always told that an individual had a
right to select what he wants to be part of, speak freely, his associa-
tions, and this was also clearly pointed out to us as inseparable from
the Bill of Eights.

I will not cast any shadow over the Bill of Rights; and in raising
this question, I stand on the right as given to us by James Madison
and his associates in relation to the first amendment and also the
privileges of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Let us break the question into two parts.

Did they also teach you about the Communist conspiracy being
dedicated to the destruction of the Constitution of the United States
and to the overthrow of this country by force and violence ?

Mr. Lee. If you want to have a discussion on this, I would be happy
to discuss this outside.

Mr. Arexs. Just tell us that. You told us they taught you at
Brooklyn, and I was wondering what they taught with respect to the
Communist Party.

Mr. Lee. Because of the circumstances of this hearing here, I refer
you to the principles inherent in the first amendment and, also, the
privileges of the first.

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Lee. I repeat the same statement again.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you gave us a truth-
ful answer to that question while you are under oath, that you would
be supplying information that might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ?

Mr. Lee. I will not be part of dragging a shadow across this coun-
try that separates the rights of an individual to do what has been
given to hun.

Mr. Arens. I think your counsel wants to confer with you now.

Is that the only reason you give in declining to answer ?

Mr. Lee. Every answer I have given is in full faith of these
thoughts.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lee. Also, quite sincere and honest, which relates to the first
and fifth.

Mr. Arens. Have you been one of the promoters of a group
known as Actors' Laboratory, Inc., on the west coast ?

Mr. Lee. The pride and joy of being associated with a theatrical
organization that contributes tremendously to the theatrical life of
the west coast was an honor that was given to me. I earned it in
terms of my theatrical life and not in any other way, and I still hold
any relationship to this is still in the freedom of creativity of our
country, the right for theater groups to spring up wherever they have
a desire to do so, and work and be judged on the creative efforts of
their work and this is my relationship to my life, to my theater, to my
tihns, to my TV, and to my teachings.

I will not put myself in the dictatorial position in any way to deter-
mine who shall live and who shall not live creatively. If we do that,
we are having conformity of a severe nature and I will not be any

2520 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

part of it and hence, in relation to your question, I reserve my rights
that are given to me.

Mr. Arexs. You are offended by dictatorial actions ; is that correct?

Mr. Lee. I refer you to my answer.

Mr. Arexs. Were you offended by the dictatorial actions of the
Kremlin a few days ago in murdering the former Hungarian premier,
Imre Nagy ?

Mr. Lee. I have been reading the papers about many things. Are
you asking me to take a stand? I ask you, is that justice? Is that
right ?

Mr. Arexs. I just wanted to be sure that the degree to which you
are taking offense is only a degree of offense with respect to Com-
munist activities.

Now, sir, would you tell us whether or not you were one of the
promoters of the Actors' Laboratory on the West Coast ?

Mr. Lee. Same answer.

Mr, Arexs. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee truthfully while you are under oath, whether or not you were
one of the promoters or organizers of Actors' Laboratory on the West
Coast, you would be supplying information which might be used
against you in a criminal proceeding?

Mr. Lee. I repeat, the same answer.

Mr. Arexs. I should like to display to you, if you please, sir, a copy
of a schedule of activities of Actors' Laboratory, Inc., Hollywood,
Calif., on which your name appears as a member of the board of that
organization.

Kindly look at this exhibit and tell this committee whether or not
the identification of you in that exhibit is true and correct.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lee. Same answer.

(Docmnent marked "Will Lee Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arexs. Do you remember a May Fiesta that was held several
years ago in the New York area in which you participated for the
Theater-Radio Grou}), West Side Anti-Fascist Committee? Do you
recall that?

Mr. Appell will display to you a copy of an advertisement from the
Communist Daily Worker in which your name appears as one of
the participants in that fiesta, and identified as one of the actors in
Goklen Boy.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lee. Same answer.

(Document marked "Will Lee Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arexs. Have you, in the course of your career as an actor, lent
your talents to an enterprise in Hollywood on behalf of the Holly-
wood Ten, they being the 10 Comnumists who were the subject of
investigation by the Conmiittee on Un-American Activities?

Do you recall anything you did on behalf of the Hollywood Ten
as an actor in the promotion of your creative art?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lee. May I see it, please ?

Mr. Arexs. Mr. Appell will display to you, sir, a photostatic re-
l^roduction of an article from the Daily People's World, which states

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2521

that you. Will Lee, an actor, were a participant of that enterprise
on behalf of the so-called Hollywood Ten.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

Mr. Lee. Whatever I did, I did with due respect to rights entitled
to me via the Bill of Rights.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question ?

Mr. Lee. I always looked upon that privilege of a community spirit
which we are constantly urged to participate in, in all dilFerent ways.

As regards to your question, sir, I give you the same answer.

(Document marked "Will I^e Exhibit No. 3," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. xVrens. In this spirit of benevolence and brotherhood, have you
participated in any session with reference to certain actors who have
testified before the Committee on Un-American Activities and told
the committee, while they were under oath, about Communist activities
and the Communist conspiratorial operation in this country?

Mr. Lee. The same answer.

Mr. Arens. Do you recall a session in 1951 at the Hotel Diplomat
here in New York where you made a speech berating Larry Parks,
an actor who testified before the Committee on Un-American Activ-
ities with reference to the Communist conspiracy in this country?

Do you recall that session ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. ScHERER. He did not want Larry Parks to have free speech.

Mr. Lee. Sir, I will make as many speeches as I can, or want to, or
have a need to. I do not have to account to you when I do or do not
make these things and I thought that was part of the integral rela-
tionship we have in our country, in our form of democracy.

I do not have to account this to you. I thought when I die and go
before Peter at the gate, my accounting takes place. This is some-
thing new that is taking place, and happening to me here.

It is again casting a wide shadow over the Bill of Rights. On the
basis of this, I say I stand on the same thing as I said before, my
rights of the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. Have you raised funds, or used your funds, your
talents, your ability, your creative art, as an actor, to raise funds for
Communist Party enterprises in the United States ?

Mr. Lee. Same answer.

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us in the exercise of your free speech what
you did as an actor on behalf of the 11 Communist traitors who were
convicted here at Foley Square?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lee. I repeat the same answer.

Mr. Arens. Do you feel if you told this committee, while you are
under oath in this public session what you did on behalf of the 11
C^ommunist traitors who were convicted here in Foley Square, you
would be supplying information which might be used against you in
a criminal proceeding?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lee. I have used my rights under the Constitution in good
faith, sir.

Mr. Arens. Kindly answer the question.

Mr. Scherer. I think he has answered it.

]Mr. Arens. Have you signed any amicus curiae briefs filed in the
Supreme Court of the L^nited States ?

2522 COMMUNISM EST THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Lee, I will sign whatever I want to and I do not think I have
to account to you for it. That is my privilege. That is what makes
our country so healthy.

Mr. Arens. Now, will you kindly answer the question ?

Mr. Lee. I have. On the basis of that, I take my eights and priv-
ileges under the first amendment and the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. We would like to display to you a copy of an extract
of a brief filed in the Supreme Court of the United States on behalf
of John Howard Lawson and Dalton Trumbo, to which a number of
people in the motion-picture industry and entertainment field have
affixed their names, including the name of Will Lee.

Would you kindly look at this exhibit and tell this committee while
you are under oath who solicited your signature to this petition ?

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lee. Anything I have done to uphold the rights of other people,
I have done with full faith of my responsibility as a human being
and I repeat again the privileges I have in executing this has been
given to me in the first amendment and also in the fifth.

(Document marked "Will Lee Exhibit No. 4" and retained in com-
mittee files.)

(At this point, Mr. Moulder entered the hearing iroom. )

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that this concludes the staff in-
terrogation of this witness.

Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Lee, you said you served in the Army of the
United States?

Mr. Lee. Yes; 3% years.

Mr. ScHERER. When was that ?

Mr. Lee. 1942, Avigust to roughly December of 1945.

Mr. ScHERER. We were an ally with the Soviet Union at that time,
were we not ?

Mr. Lee. I served in the LTnited States.

Mr. ScHERER. I said we in the United States were an ally with the
Soviet Union at that time.

Mr. Lee. That was not on my invitation to join the Army.

Mr. ScHERER. Will you answer the q^uestion ? ,.

Mr. Lee. I do not mean to be unknid to what you are asking but
that is a definition that you are giving. I can't. I said I have served
with our Army.

Mr. Scherer. Wlien you served with the Army were you a member
of the Communist Party at the same time ?

Mr. Lee. Same answer.

Mr. Moulder. Do you mean you decline to answer by claiming the
privilege under the Constitution ?

Mr. Lee. That is right.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.

(The witness was excused.)

Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, is Mr. Charles Dubin.

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give before this subcommittee of the United States Congress
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but tlie truth, so help
you God?

Mr. Dubin, I do, sir,

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2523

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES S. DUBIN (DOBRONOFSKY), ACCOMPANIED
BY COUNSEL, HUBERT T. DELANY

Mr, Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mr. DuBiN. My name is Charles S. Dubin ; I live at 505 "West End
Avenue, New York City, and I am a television director.

j\ir. Arens. You are appearing here today, Mr. Dubin, in response
to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?

Mr. Dubin. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Dubin. Yes, I am.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Mr. Delany. My name is Hubert Delany, 52 Broadway, New York
City.

Mr. Arens. "Wliere are you employed, Mr. Dubin ?

Mr. Dubin. I am employed as director of a quiz show known as
Twenty-One and I am also one of several directors on a suiximer
replacement dramatization show called The Investigator.

Mr. Arens. Is Dubin the name you have used all your life ?

Mr. Dubin. As I explained to you, Mr. Arens, in some detail at our
last meeting which was a closed session, from the time I was born
until 192*9 the name my family had was Dobronofsky.

In 1929 my father desired to shorten the name for purposes of
convenience, and that is the name I have used for my entire life.

Mr. Arens. Kindly spell the name.

Mr. Dubin. D-o-b-r-o-n-o-f-s-k-y.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Dubin, are you now, or have you ever been, a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Dubin. Mr. Arens

Mr. Delany. Would you break up that question ?

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Delany. I do not want to argue with you, but in view of the
answer that was given at the May 8 [1958] session, it puts us in a very
embarrassing position.

Mr. Arens. Kindly answer the question, are you now, or have you
ever been, a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Delany. May I appeal to the chairman ?

Mr. Arens. Counsel, your sole and exclusive purpose in appearing
here is for the purpose of advising your client, and any statements
that you desire to make to the committee should be made through your
client, the witness.

]Mr. Delany. I do not think he can answer it fairly unless it is
broken up.

Mr. Moulder. It is the rule of the committee that you speak through
the witness.

Mr. Dubin. As I told yon on May 8, Mr. Arens, and I believe you,
too, Mr. Scherer, I was not then a member of the Communist Party.
I declined at that point to answer in relation to past membership
because after much discussion with my counsel, I am told that under

2524 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

the Constitution I do not have to be a witness against myself and,
therefore, I decline to answer questions about past associations.

Mr. Arens. "Were you a member of the Communist Party at any
time since you received your subpena some several weeks ago to ap-
year before this committee?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. DuBiN. xVs I replied to you on May 8, Mr. Arens, I respectfully
decline to answer the question on the grounds tliat I do not wish to be
a witness against myself.

Mr. Delany. Except insofar as you have answered.

Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Communist Paity at any
time since our executive session on May 8 ?

Mr. DuBiN. Well, of course not.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party on May 7,
the day preceding the exe<?utive session ?

Mr. DuBiN. Again, sir, as I responded to that question on May 8,
I must respectfully decline to answer.

Mr. Arexs. Are there persons presently in the entertainment in-
dustry who, to your certain knowledge, in the recent past have been
members of the Communist Party ?

Mr. DuBiN. Would you repeat that question please ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. Are there persons presently in the entertain-
ment industry who, to your certain knowledge, in the recent past
have been members of the Connnunist Party ?

Mr. Delany. May I ask that that question be rephrased. Obviously
a witness could not truthfully answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Certainly he could.

Mr. Moulder. Do you have any knowledge or information concern-
ing persons in the entertainment industry who are now members of
the Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. DuBiN. I think, in order to protect my rights, I respectfully
decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. It is the feeling of this committee that you, as a prom-
inent member in the television and entertainment industry, director,
and the like, have information which would be of significance to this
committee in its endeavor to obtain information respecting the oper-
ation of the Communist Party in the entertainment industiy.

If this committee should cause to be instituted proceedings which
would grant you immunity from criminal prosecution, based upon
any testimony you might give before this committee, and if those pro-
ceedings were brought to a consummation so that you would be granted
immunity from crnninal prosecution based upon any testimony you
would give before this committee, would you testify fully and freely
respecting any and all information which you possess with regard
to the Communist Party, Communists, Communist activities, during
the course of your life ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. DuBiN. Mr. Arens, you put a very large and sweeping and very
profound question to me.

Mr, Arens. And you have had time to ponder that question since
May 8 because I posed substantially the same question to you on
May 8.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2525

Mr. DuBiN. Substantially the same, but in some ways difl'erent.
For example, at this point you used the phrase, "during- all my life."

Mr. Arens. We will say during your adult life. Perhaps it would
help you in your consideration before you respond to this question, if
you would tell us whether or not you have considered the question
which I proposed to you on May 8 of causing inmiunity proceedings
to be instituted if you would testify fully and freely of your knowl-
edge of the Communist operation.

Mr. DuBiN. I have not had enough of an opportunity to consider
all the many things that have to be considered in relation to such a
question. 1 cannot answer you at this time. I would have to take
deep and serious legal counsel and advice and it seems to me the ques-
tion is couched in a hypothetical manner and, therefore, I cannot
answer it at this time.

Mr. Arens. Have you resigned from the Communist Party?

Mr. DuBiN. The same answer as before.

Mr. Arens. Have you been expelled from the Communist Party ?

Mr. DiTBiN. I decline, respectfully, to answer on the same grounds
as before.

Mr. Arens. Are you now against the Communist Party ?

Mr. DuBiN. Whatever my differences of opinion may be with any
particular organization, I must at this point say, Mr. Arens, gentle-
men of the committee, tliat I am entitled to those opinions as per-
sonal beliefs.

I am willing to discuss tliem with friends, but I liardly think that
this is the place or the time to discuss such opinions and, therefore,
on that ground and on the ground that I do not Avish to be a witness
against myself as the privilege accorded to me in the Constitution,
I respectfully decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Are 3'ou or have you ever been a member of the Stage
for Action ?

Mr. Dfbin. I am not a member of Stage for Action. I decline, as
1 have said before, to talk about my past associations because the
Constitution says to me I do not have to be a witness against myself.

Mr. Arens. Did you produce Dream Job, for the Stage for Action ?

Mr. DuBiN. Dream Job ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dubin. I do not remember that at all, sir.

Mr. Arens. Have you produced Omnibus?

Mr. Dubin. No, sir ; I did not produce Omnibus.

Mr. Arens. What was your connection with Omnibus ?

Mr. Dubin. I was hired as a director for many other segments, seg-
ments being portions of programs.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your directorship of these seg-
ments for Omnibus, were you a member of the Communist Party?

Mr, Dubin. I decline respectfully to answer that question on the
same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time did you direct segments of
Omnibus ?

Mr. Dubin. The first one, which was with Esther Williams, was in
October of 1955. The last one was just a few weeks ago. It was The
Passion According to St. Matthew.

2526 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Arens. With respect to the first one that you talked about, at
the time of its production were you a member of the Communist
Party?

Mr. DuBiN. I think I have already answered that question when
you asked me prior, but I will repeat my answer, however, Mr. Arens.
I decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. Are you a member, or have you been a member, of the
National Council of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions ?

Mr. DuBiN. Would you repeat that question, please ?

Mr. Arens. Are you, or have you been, a member of the National
Council of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions ?

Mr. DuBiN. I am not a member. I refuse to answer the question
about my past associations because I do not wish to be a witness
against myself.

Mr. Arens. Were you stage manager for the National Council of
the Arts, Sciences, and Professions' Carnegie Hall presentation in
1949?

Mr. DuBiN. I am sorry, would you please repeat that question ?

Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell will exhibit to you the announcement of an
enterprise under the auspices of the National Council of the Arts,
Sciences, and Professions, listing your name as the stage manager.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. DuBiN. I respectfully decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. You can definitely help this Committee on Un-
American Activities if you can tell us whether or not you were paid
or whether or not you contributed your services, because this is an
organization that has been cited as an entity controlled by the Com-
munist conspiracy. Could you help us? Could you tell us whether
or not your participation in that enterprise was one for which you
received remuneration ?

Mr. DuBiN. Mr. Arens, the best way I can help this committee is
to go back to my work of good quality material for the American
public. I have received some criticism of a negative sort, and that is
the best way I , as a citizen, can function.

I respectfully decline to answer the question with respect to this
particular instance.

Mr. Arens. Why ?

Mr. DuBiN. Because I do not wish to be a witness against myself.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you told this committee
whether or not you received compensation from the National Council
of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions, j^ou would be supplying in-
formation that might be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?

Mr. DuBiN. I do not wish to give you such an understandings. I
simply say I do not wish to be a witness against myself.

Mr. Arens. I request that the witness be ordered and directed to
answer the last outstanding question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the
question.

(Tlie witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. DuuiN. Would you please repeat the question, Mr. Arens?

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you told this committee
whether or not you received remuneration for your participation in
this particular enterprise under the auspices of the National Council

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2527

of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions, you would be supplying in-
formation which might be used against you in a criminal proceeding'^

Mr. DuBiN. Gentlemen, I respectfully decline to answer that ques-
tion on the grounds that I do not wish to be a witness against myself.

(Document marked "Dubin Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Have you been an instructor in dramatics or in the field
of entertainment in the course of the last several years ?

Mr. Dubin. I respectfully decline to answer that on the same
grounds, sir.

Mr. Arens. I have a copy of an article from the Daily Worker in
which you are characterized, Charles Dubin, as one of the instructors
of the School of the Stage for Action, Inc. Does that ring a bell?
Does that prompt your recollection witli respect to your participation
in that enterprise ?

Mr. Dubin. I am going to take advantage of my constitutional
privilege again and respectfully decline to answer, sir.

(Document marked "Dubin Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Did you sign a nominating petition for George Blake
Charneyinl953?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell will display to you a reproduction of a
nominating petition for George Blake Charney, who was at one time
head of the Communist Party of the State of New York. On this
petition as one of the signers is the signature of Charles S. Dubin, 410
Central Park West. Is that your signature ?

Mr. Dubin. I respectfully decline to answ^er your first question
which did not have anything to do with my signature.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell the committee w^hether or not
the document which was just displayed to you bears a true and ac-
curate reproduction of your signature ?

Mr. Dubin. I respectfully decline to answ^er on the same grounds.

(Document marked "Dubin Exhibit No. 3", and retained in com-
mittee files. )

Mr. Arens. What was your address on September 20, 1953? Do
you recall where you were living then ?

Mr. Dubin. I respectfully decline to answer the question, sir, on the
same grounds.

Mr, ScHERER. I think the witness should be directed to answer
the question as to where he was living in 1953. I cannot possibly see
how that would tend to incriminate him.

Mr. Moulder. Yes, the witness is directed to answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Dubin. May I please, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Scherer, Mr. Arens,
understand the question which I am directed to answer ? Wliere was
I living in 1953 ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir, or make it the fall of 1953.

Mr. Dubin. May I have another look at that petition please ?

The reason I would like to decline to answer that question, Mr.
Scherer, sir, since you raised the matter of directions, it seems to
me pinpointing such a date is perhaps another way of getting me to
answer the first question which I decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. Did you ever live at 410 Central Park West ?

2528 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

i\Ir. DuBiN. Yes, sir ; I did live at 410 Central Park, West.

JNIr. Arens. Did you live there at any time during the year 1953?

Mr. DuBiN. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds that
I do not wish to be a witness against myself.

Mr. Arens. When did you live at 410 Central Park West?

Mr. DuBiN. I respectfully decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest we conclude the interrogation of
this witness.

(The witness was excused.)

Mr. Arens. Mr. Carroll Hollister.

Mr. Hollister. I do.

TESTIMONY OF CAREOLL HOLLISTER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

HARRY SACHER

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.

Mr. Hollister. My name is Carroll Hollister, 344 West 72d Street ;
occupation, musician.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr, Hollister, in response
to a subpena served upon you by the House Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities?

Mr. Hollister. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Hollister. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself for the record.

Mr. Sacher. Harry Sacher, 342 Madison Avenue, New York, N. Y.

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ?

Mr. Hollister. I am self-employed.

Mr. Arens. Where, please, sir ?

Mr. Hollister. At my address which I just gave.

Mr. Arens. What do you do there ?

Mr. Hollister. I teach singing and coach singers — music in
general.

Mr. Arens. Have you also been on the faculty of the Metropolitan
Music School, Inc. ?

Mr. Hollister. I would find it difficult to understand why it is
necessary for this committee to ask this question in order to further
the aims of legislation which is required. I have no shame about
any employment which I have ever had in my life or have at the
present time and, as a music teacher, I would consider that I had the
riglits to seek employment in music at any institution of recognized
musical standing.

Mr. Arens. If you are not ashamed of it, then kindly tell us
whether or not you have been employed as an instructor at the
Meti-opolitan Music School.

Mr. Hollister. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Communist Party?

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2529

Mr. HoLLiSTER. I feel tliat I must respectfully refuse to answer
this question as an invasion of my riglits as a citizen of association
or membership in or^-anizations in respect to the first amendment; and
in respect to the fifth amendment, my right to be called upon to
testify against myself.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Hollister, in April 1956 a man by the name of
Ramez Idriss took an oath before this committee, laid his liberty
on the line, said, "While I was a member of the Communist Party" —
I am only paraphrasing what he said — '"While I was a member of
the Comnumist Party, 1 knew as a Communist in leadership capacity,
a i)erson by the name of Carroll Hollister."

We want to give you an opportunity now, sir, to deny that state-
ment, that characterization, that identihcation while you are under
oath. Was Mr. Idriss in error when he identified you as a person
known to him certainly, to be a leader of the Communist Party?

Mr. Hollister. I would decline to answer that question on the
same grounds which I asserted before — my rights under the first and
fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Idriss?

Mr. Hollister. Same answer.

Mr. Arens. At about the same time Mr. Idriss appeared before this
committee, Don Christlieb also appeared and lie likewise took an
oath. If he lied before this committee he will be subjected to criminal
prosecution for perjury.

He said while he was a member of the Communist Party he knew
you, Carroll Hollister, as a member of the Communist Party. Kindly
tell us, was this man, Christlieb, telling the truth while he was under
oath before this committee ?

Mr. Sacher. jSIr. Chairman, I think Mr. Arens is arrogating powers
to himself.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that counsel be admonished that
his sole and exclusive rights are to advise his client.

Mr. Moulder. Counsel is directed to speak through the witness.

Now, your question is whether or not

Mr. Arens. Whether Christlieb told the truth when he took an oath
before this committee and identified the instant witness, Carroll
Hollister.

Mr. Moulder. It is the rule of the committee whenever a person is
accused by a witness of being a member of the Communist Party, the
person accused is given an opportunity to affirm or deny the accusa-
tion made by that witness.

Counsel has read you a portion of that testimony. Now, do 3^011
wish to deny or affirm ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Hollister. Will you repeat the specific question ? I think there
were two forms in which it was given to me.

Mr. Arens. Was Christlieb telling the truth when he took an oath
before this committee and identified you as a person known by him
to be a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Hollisti':r. I think this question is similar to the one asked of
me before, and I would decline to answer for the same reasons, because
of my rights as a citizen under the first amendment and fifth amend-
ment.

2530 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Christlieb ?

Mr. HoLLiSTER. Same answer.

Mr. Arens. Have you been on the board of the Musicians Congress
Committee ?

Mr. HoLLiSTER. Can you be more specific ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, perhaps I could help you by displaying to you a
letterhead of the Musicians Congress Committee, Hollywood, Calif.,
on which the names of a number of persons appear on the general
board, including the name Carroll Hollister.

Kindly look at this exhibit and tell this committee wdiether you are
properly characterized as a member of that board in that exhibit.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Hollister, Sir, I do not see any reason why the committee
should ask me or I should answer a question which has anything to do
with joining a musical organization for the purpose of pursuing my
profession in music.

Mr. Arens. Let us change the question. Was your affiliation with
that organization solely and exclusively for the purpose of music?

Mr. Hollister. I have not admitted anything yet.

Mr. Arens. Tell us first of all whether or not you are honestly
and accurately characterized there as a member of the board of that
group.

Mr. Hollister. I think I would decline to answer this question on
the same grounds, sir, as I have given before.

(Document marked "Hollister Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Have you been one of the promoters of the American
Continental Congress for Peace?

\ Mr. Hollister. I decline to answer this question on the same
grounds as an invasion of my rights as a citizen under the first and
fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. You would have no shame in undertaking to promote
peace.

Mr. Hollister. I certainly would not have.

Mr. Arens. Then why don't you tell us whether or not you are
honestly and truthfully identified as one of the sponsors of the Ameri-
can Continental Congress for Peace, as I exhibit to you a leaflet of that
organization.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Hollister. In asking this question, I think that you attempt to
actually besmirch the activities which are legal and correct activity
for citizens of the United States even to the point of making it im-
possible for me to participate in a movement which many citizens
participate in, as you said yourself, to further peace ; and I feel that
this is a question that you have no right to ask me in connection with
your inquiry.

(Document marked "Hollister Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Tell us whether or not, to your certain knowledge, this
American Continental Congress for Peace is a ruse and a fraud and an
enterprise promoted by the Communist conspiracy in this Nation.

Mr. Hollister. I think that is a very loaded question, sir, and I
refuse to answer it.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2531

Mr. Arens. Why?

Mr. HoLLisTER. On the grounds that I have stated.

Mr. Arens. On what grounds ?

Mr. HoLLiSTER. On the grounds of my right as an American citi-
zen to free association and free speecli and the right of participa-
tion in any organization which has the aims that are correct under
our form of Government.

Mr. Arens. Is that the sole and exclusive ground upon which you
decline to answer?

Mr. HoLLisTER. Also, on the grounds I refuse to be a witness
against myself.

Mr. Moulder. In other words, you are claiming your privileges
under the first and fifth amendments ?

Mr. HoLLisTER. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. I have a photostatic reproduction of an article from
the Communist Daily Worker of March 21, 1952, stating, "39 More
Notables Urge Negotiations in Germany," were signers of an open
letter to former President Truman, which action was sponsored by the
American Peace Crusade.

I see among those notables who are lending their prestige and dig-
nity and position in the entertainment industry to the enterprise, a
person named Carroll Hollister.

Kindly look at that exhibit and tell this committee while you are
under oath if that is a true and accurate identification of your affilia-
tion with that organization.

Mr. Hollister. I decline to answer that question on tlie same
grounds as before.

(Document marked "Hollister Exhibit No. 3," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Are you a concert pianist in addition to your instruct-
ing work?

Mr. Hollister. I don't know exactly what you mean by concert
pianist. I play the piano, yes, sir, in concerts.

Mr. Scherer. Is that not a concert pianist ?

Mr. Hollister. No, sir. I play the piano not as a soloist. Gen-
erally, the term applies to a soloist, although I have played solos at
times.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever lived in Westport, Conn, ?

Mr. Hollister. I think that I will decline to answer that question
on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the, witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question as to whether or not
he ever lived near Westport, Conn. It is easy for a person to live
in Westport, Conn., without being a member of the Communist
Party.

INIr. Hollister. On advice of my lawyer, I refuse to answer.

Mr. jSIoulder. Are you refusing to answer the questions claiming
the privileges under the provisions of the first and fifth amend-
ments ?

Mr. Hollister. Yes, I would claim those two.

Mr. Arens. May I display to you a photostatic copy of a letter
from the Conference on Peaceful Alternatives to the Atlantic Pact
to which is attached a copy of its open letter to Members of Congress

2532 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

signed by persons from various States, including one Carroll Hol-
lister, concert pianist, of Westport, Conn.

Kindly look at this document and see if it refreshes your recollec-
tion with reference to the lending by you of your name and prestige
as a concert pianist.

Mr. ScHERER. He said he was not a concert pianist.

Mr. HoLLiSTER. I think the formulation is incorrect. I decline to
answer this question on the same grounds based on the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. Is this characterization of this document of you as a
concert pianist erroneous?

Mr, HoLLisTER. I don't know what the characterization means in
this document.

Mr. Arens. Did you sign the open letter initiated by the Confer-
ence on Peaceful Alternatives to the Atlantic Pact?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Hollister. As I said before, I see nothing to be ashamed of or
nothing illegal in activities on behalf of peace. I have participated
in such activities and I shall continue. I think it is important that
we avoid war and avoid it for all people in the world.

Mr. Scherer. Is not that petition directed to the Congress ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

Mr. Scherer. Then we have a right as Members of Congress to
know, also, whether or not those petitions come from the citizens who
belong to bona fide organizations or whether they are inspired by the
Communist apparatus. That is what we have a right to know to
properly evaluate it.

Mr. Hollister. I am not answering a question as to who signed.
I am saying I have participated in organizations working for peace —
peace is on behalf of all of you, even Members of Congress.

Mr, Moulder, Then, as I understand your response to the question,
you did sign the petition.

Mr. Hollister. No, sir, I said I have a right to act on behalf of
peace; but in regard to this particular question, in order to defend
my rights under the Constitution, I will refuse to answer that particu-
lar question,

(Document marked "Hollister Exhibit No. 4'' and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr, Scherer. I said you certainly have a right to act on behalf of
peace. I wish more people did so, but we Members of Congress have
a right to know, when petitions come to us, whether they are inspired
by the Communist apparatus. We liave a right to know that.

Mr. Hollister. I don't see that it is necessary to say who inspired,
or what inspires, an action on behalf of peace,

Mr, Scherer. If we find out it comes from the Communist appa-
ratus, we know it is fraudulent.

Mr. Hollister, Peace is a good goal regardless of who or where it
is inspired,

Mr, Arens, Would it be a good goal in Spain ?

Mr, Hollister, It would be a good goal anywhere,

Mr. Arens. Was it a good goal in Spain during the civil war?

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2533

Mr. HoLLiSTER. I say the fight for peace is important to any person
living on any part of this globe.

Mr. Aeens. Did you undertake to promote peace in the civil war
in Spain, or did you take sides and want to promote one side ?

I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that counsel be advised that
his exclusive right is to advise the witness of his constitutional rights.
1 heard him tell the witness what to say.

Mr. Sacher. I have a constitutional right not to be eavesdropped
on.

Mr. HoLLiSTER. I am only asking his advice in guiding my answers.

Mr. Arens. Kindly look at this letterhead of the Musicians' Com-
mittee To Aid Spanish Democracy, a document which was circulated
aromid in these parts during the time of the war, not peace, in Spain.
I see here a number of sponsors to aid the Communists in their war in
Spain, including one Carroll Hollister.

Kindly look at that document and tell this committee, wliile you
are under oath, whether or not you were part and parcel of that enter-
prise to promote the war in Spain.

Mr. ScHERER. No, that is peace.

Mr. Sacher. That is not the question, Mr. Congressman.

Mr. Hollister. I think the question is formulated in such a way
that I will have to take as an answer my rights as a citizen under the
first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. Is there any way I could formulate the question that
would elicit a full and complete answer ?

Mr. Hollister. I don't know, I am sure.

Mr. Arens. Look at this and tell me in any way, shape, or form,
whether you were connected with this Musicians' Committee To Aid
Spanish Democracy.

Mr. Hollister. I think the question is in violation of my rights un-
der the first and fifth amendments and I refuse to answer under the
gromids previously stated.

(Document marked "Hollister Exhibit No. 5" and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Moulder. We will take a 5-minute recess.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that we conclude the interroga-
tion of this witness.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.

(The witness was excused.)

Mr. Moulder. Call your next witness, Mr. Arens.

Mr. Arens. Adelaide Klein Annenberg, kindly come forward.

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which
you are about to give before this subcommittee of the United States
Congress will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?

Mrs. Annenberg. I. do.

28123—58 5

2534 COJVDVIUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

TESTIMONY OF MRS. ADELAIDE KLEIN ANNENBERG, ACCOM-
PANIED BY COUNSEL, PAUL M. ROSS

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.

Mrs. Annenberg. My name is Adelaide Klein Annenberg. I live
at 145 West 55th Street, New York 19, N. Y. I am an actress.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mrs. Annenberg, in response
to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?

Mrs. Annenberg. I am, sir.

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?

Mrs. Annenberg. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself for the record.

Mr. Ross. My name is Paul M. Ross, 635 Madison Avenue, New
York, N. Y.

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed, Mrs. Annenberg?

Mrs. Annenberg. I am not employed at the moment.

Mr. Arens. Where were you last employed ?

Mrs. Annenberg. I just closed on Saturday night in a play called
Jane Eyre.

Mr. Arens. Where did it play ?

Mrs. Annenberg. At the Belasco Theater in New York City.

Mr. Arens. How long were you employed in that particular pro-
duction ?

Mrs. Annenberg. Six and a half weeks.

Mr. Arens. Wliat productions or play were you in immediately
prior to it?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mrs. Annenberg. I was in a play that did not come into New York.

Mr. Arens. Where were you born ?

Mrs. Annenberg. New York City.

Mr. Arens. Give us a word, please, about your formal education.

Mrs. Annenberg. I was educated in the schools of New York, in
the high schools of New York. I have the equivalent of a college
degree without a diploma. I never got a diploma. I finished up in
various extension and night courses.

Mr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in the acting pro-
fession ?

Mrs. Annenberg. I Avould say about 28 years.

Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Commmiist Party ?

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer the question.

Mr. Arens. You are reading from a prepared statement now ?

Mrs. Annenberg. Yes, I am.

Mr. Arens. Did you prepare that statement?

Mr. Ross. I object to the witness being asked if she prepared it.

Mr. Arens. I request that counsel be advised that his sole and ex-
clusive purpose is to advise his client.

Mrs. Annenberg. T prepared the statement witli the help of my
attorney.

Mr. Moulder. Yon have a right to use the statement .

Mr. Arens. Kindly proceed.

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer the question Mr.
Arens has just asked as I have been informed by my counsel that

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 25o5

under the decisions of the United States Supreme Court in the Wat-
kins and Sweezy cases, the powers of this committee are strictly
limited to the areas of mj beliefs, expressions, or associations on the
grounds that such questioning constitutes an interference with my
I'ights under the first amendment ; that the enabling resolution of this
committee is in itself an unlawful delegation of power and such ques-
tioning is in any event beyond the jurisdiction of this committee; that
this question or any like question cannot be pertinent to any legitimate
subject of inquiry to which this committee can address itself under its
enabling resolution ; that the purpose of the question addressed to me
and any like questions, as well as the requirements of my appearance
before your committee toda}^, is for the sake of exposure and for the
purpose of doing me personal injury and not for the purpose of pur-
suing any legitimate subject of inquiry which this committee is law-
fully authorized to pursue.

Mr. Arens. Is that all of the statement ?

Mrs. Annenberg, That is all.

(At this point, Mr, Scherer left the hearing room.)

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell us whether you know of this
organization : Peoples Radio Foundation, Inc. ? Is there such an or-
ganization to your knowledge ?

Mrs. Annenberg. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
I have just stated.

Mr. Arens. Are you on the advisory council, or have you been on
the advisory council, of the Peoples Radio Foundation, Inc. ?

Mrs. Annenberg. I must give the same answer, sir.

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you now, please, sev-
eral exhibits in which your stage name, Adelaide Klein, appears as one
of the directors, as well as on the advisory council, of the Peoples Radio
Foundation, 100 Fifth Avenue, New York, N. Y.

Kindly look at these exhibits and tell this committee whether or not
you are accurately and truthfully characterized here as a director and
as a member of the advisory council of that organization.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mrs. Annenberg. I must respectfully decline to answer on the
grounds already stated.

(Documents marked "Annenberg Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2," and re-
tained in committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Martin Berkeley ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds
already stated.

Mr. Arens. I do not know whether or not the record reflects that you
are invoking the provisions of the fifth amendment against self-
incrimination.

Mrs. Annenberg. There has been no direction, sir.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the
question.

Mrs. Annenberg. In view of the direction and in view of all of the
reasons I have just given, I must invoke my privilege under the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you know Martin Berkeley ?

Mrs. Anneberg. I must respectfully decline to answer on all of the
grounds previously stated.

2536 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Aeens. Martin Berkeley took an oath before this committee and
he stated that he knew you as a member of the Communist Party.
Was he telling the truth ?

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer on all of the
grounds previously stated.

Mr. Arens. And on all the grounds previously stated, are you en-
compassing the provisions of the fifth amendment which endow you
with the privilege of declining to give information which in your
honest judgment could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?

Mrs. Annenberg. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Have you taken any position on these recent purges in
Hungary ?

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer that question on
all the grounds previously stated.

Mr._ Arens. You took a position on the purges in the Soviet Union
in which a number of people were shot ?

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the grounds previously stated.

Mr. Arens. Was your position in defense of the Soviet Union for
shooting them ?

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer that question on
all the grounds previously stated.

Mr. Arens. I should like to display to you a copy of an article from
New Masses, entitled "The Moscow Trials," a statement by American
Progressives, signed by a number of people who are peaceful and pro-
gressive— according to this, so peaceful that they are endorsing the
murder by the Soviet Union of vast segments of its society.

Kindly look at this article and tell this committee while you are
under oath whether or not you lent your name as an actress to this
statement which was issued and disseminated over the length and
breadth of this land.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mr. Arens. We have another exhibit to which we should like to
direct your attention in which the Daily Worker calls the attention of
the world to the leading artists and educators supporting the trial
verdict.

Among the leading artists who are characterized as lending the pres-
tige and dignity and prominence of their names to this statement is
Adelaide Klein.

Kindly look at that exhibit, along with the one just displayed to you,
and tell this committee whether or not you did so participate in that
enterprise.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferrerd with her counsel.)

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer the questions on
all the grounds previously stated.

(Documents marked "Annenberg Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4," and re-
tained in committee files. )

Mr. Arens. Do you know Howard Fast ?

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer the question on
all the grounds previously stated.

Mr. Arens. I have an article here to which we should like to direct
your attention which, by indirection at least, will help give us a little

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2537

information as to whether or not Communists in the entertainment
field are lending their prestige and dignity, the glamour of their posi-
tion to Communist enterprises :

"Meeting Tonight To Help Free Howard Fast." It tells of a meet-
ing of a number of people for the purpose of sponsoring a movement to
free Howard Fast, who was serving a jail sentence at that time for
contempt of Congress. According to this article, Adelaide Klein,
will participate at the meeting by reading a poem — participate in a
dramatization of a book Freedom Road.

Kindly look at that copy of an article and see if it refreshes your
recollection Vvith reference to your participation in that enterprise.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mrs. xYnnenberg. I decline to answer those questions on all the
grounds previously stated.

(Document marked "Annenberg Exhibit No. 5" and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Akens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest we conclude the
interrogation.

Mr. Moulder. Are you the Adelaide Klein referred to in the docu-
ments ?

Mrs. Annenberg. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.

Mr. Moulder. Have you at any time contributed money, financial
support, to the Communist Party ?

Mrs. Annenberg. I respectfully decline to answer that question on
all the grounds previously stated.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.

(The witness was excused.)

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the next witness be Mr.
Arthur Lief. Kindly come forward.

Mr. Lief. I do.

TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR LIEF, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
DAVID A. BARNHARD

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.

Mr. Lief. My name is Arthur Lief. My residence is 44 West 77th.
I am a musician by profession.

Mr. Arens. Have you used any name other than Arthur Lief ?

Mr. Lee. The only other name was the name I was born with which
was changed by court order, which was changed about 25 years
ago.

(At this point, Mr. Scherer returned to the hearing room.)

(At this point Mr. Moulder left the hearing room.)

Mr. Arens. ¥Aat was that name, please ?

Mr. Lief. Lipshutz.

Mr. Arens. Was the first name Lipshutz ?

Mr. Lief. No, it was Abraham.

2538 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Arens. I want to be sure that the record reflects the accurate
spelling there. Would you kindly spell both names ?

Mr. Llef. A-b-r-a-h-a-m L-i-p-s-h-u-t-z.

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born ?

Mr. Lief. I was born in London, England, June 4, 1907.

Mr. Arens. When did you come to the United States for perma-
nent residence ?

Mr. Lief. I believe at the age of about a year or a year and a
half.

Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States ?

Mr. Lief. I am.

Mr. Arens. Is that by derivation ?

Mr. Lief. That is right.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties?

Mr. Lief. Yes, I am.

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?

Mr. Barnhard. David A. Barnhard, 2 West 46th Street, Man-
hattan.

Mr. Arens. What is your present occupation ?

Mr. Lief. I am connected with the Moiseyev Dance Co.

Mr. Arens. Is that the Moiseyev Russian ballet ?

Mr. Lief. That is right.

Mr. Arens. In what connection are you associated with that en-
terprise ?

Mr. Lief. As American guest conductor.

Mr. Arens. How long have you been the American guest con-
ductor of the Russian ballet ?

Mr. Lief. Since their first appearance here which is rouglily about
8 or 9 weeks ago.

Mr. Arens. Have you actually conducted for them since they have
been in this country ?

Mr. Lief. Yes ; I have.

Mr. Arens. "Where have you been conducting for them ?

Mr. Lief. In most of the cities where they have appeared from
coast to coast.

Mr. Arens. I have to confess to you, sir, a lack of close attention
to the papers with reference to this Russian ballet. Wliere are they
playing now ?

Mr. Lief. Right now they are playing in Washington, D. C.

Mr. Arens. In what cities have you conducted ?

Mr. Lief. What cities ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

Mr. Lief. San Francisco, St. Louis, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Bos-
ton, Washington.

INIr. Arens. How many performances ?

Mr. Lief. I do several of the numbers at eacli performance.

Mr. Arens. Who first contacted you for your job as the American
conductor of the Russian ballet ?

Mr. Lief. I applied for the job in the usual channels.

Mr. Arens. Where did you apply for the job?

Mr. Lief. To the American nnpressario who bi'ought the company
here.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2539

Mr. Arens. Wlien did you apply for the job ?

Mr. Lief. When I first heard that the group was going to be
brought here.

Mr. Arens. What year was that ?

Mr. Lief. I would say sometime in the fall of last year.

Mr. Arens. Who is this American impressario?

Mr. Lief. Mr. Hurok.

Mr. Arens. Did you know Mr. Hurok previously ?

Mr. Lief. Yes.

Mr. Arens. What has been the nature of your previous acquaint-
anceship with Mr. Hurok?

Mr. Lief. I had worked for him in the past.

Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. Did you have any discussion with Mr. Hurok at any
time with respect to whether or not you are a member of the Commu-
nist Party ?

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. Where have you been employed in the course of the
last few years ?

Mr. Lief. Previous to the Moiseyev company, I was on tour witli
Invol.

Mr. Arens. What is that?

Mr. Lief. It is a folk-dance company from Israel.

Mr. Arens. What did you do for Invol ?

Mr. Lief. I was American guest conductor.

Mr. Arens. Who arranged for your employment in that capacity ?

Mr. Lief. Mr. Hurok.

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you were a guest con-
ductor for Invol ?

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. Proceed to give us other principal employments you
have had in the past few years.

Mr. Lief. Previous to Invol, I traveled with the Royale Ballet from
London, also as American guest conductor.

Mr. Arens. Wlio arranged for your employment in that capacity ?

Mr. Lief. Mr. Hurok.

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you were the guest con-
ductor for the Royale Ballet of England ?

Mr. Lief. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. Give us another principal employment.

Mr. Lief. Last summer, the summer of 1957, I was employed by
Michael P. Grace in a production of a show in Central Park as mu-
sical director.

Mr. Arens. What was the show, do you recall ?

Mr. Lief. Rosalie.

Mr. Arens. Was that promoted by the municipal authorities or is
it a private enterprise ?

2540 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Lief. I cannot quite answer that accurately. I believe that it
was a private enterprise since Mr. Grace was licensed by the park
department to produce shows in Central Park.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of George Koukly ?

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the gromids of the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Ahens. Do you know where Koukly is employed ?

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. Was your employment with the Eussian ballet pro-
cured for you or facilitated for you by any person known by you to
be a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. Are you, or have you been, engaged in TV work in the
recent past?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lief. As far as I can remember, no.

Mr. Arens. Are you a member of a trade miion in the profession ?

Mr. Lief. Yes, I am a member of Local 802, American Federation
of Musicians.

Mr. Arens. Have you held any office or post in that organization ?

Mr. Lief. No, I have not.

Mr. Arens. Have you been the director of the Jefferson Chorus?

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever instructed at the Metropolitan Music
School?

Mr. Lief. No, I have not.

Mr. Arens. Is George Koukly one of the members of tlie orchestra
of the Russian ballet company ?

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. Did you have anything to do with his employment with
the Eussian ballet company orchestra ?

Mr. Lief, I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and (ifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. Are there persons in the Eussian ballet orchestra who
are members of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fiftli
amendments.

Mr. Arens. Have you received any compensation as director of the
Jefferson Chorus?

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fii-st and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. I have a co]:>y of the Communist Dail}' Worker in
which an article appears : "Jefferson Chorus presents Informal Con-
cert, directed by Arthur Lief," and so forth ; that tickets are available
at the Jefferson School Bookshop, Local 65 Bookshop, Workers
Bookshop.

Kindly look at that exhibit and tell the committee whether or not
your participation in that enterprise described in the Daily Worker
is true, honest, and correct.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2541

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the same grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.

(Document marked "Lief Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com-
mitee files. )

Mr. Arens. Have you been in any sessions other than the profes-
sional sessions with the members of the Eussian ballet, their business
agents, members of their company, in connection with that presenta-
tion since their arrival in the United States ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend, sir, that if you told this
committee the facts respecting any sessions in which you may have
been engaged with the people of Soviet Eussia in this ballet com-
pany, whether actors, performers, business people, and the like, you
would be supplying information which might be used against you,
sir, in a criminal proceeding ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Lief. I decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be directed and ordered to answer that outstanding principal question,
which is posed to him for the purposes of testing his good faith,
because if he does not honestlj^ apprehend that the information might
be used against him in a criminal proceeding, he has no right to
invoke the fifth amendment.

On the other hand, if he does honestly apprehend that if he told
us concerning any session he has been in with the Soviet Union people

who are here

^ Mr. Tuck. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the ques-
tion.

Mr. Lief. I must still decline to answer the question on the same
grounds.

Mr. Tuck. In no spirit of threat, it is my duty to warn you that
you may be found guilty of contempt. Do you still decline to answer ?

Mr. Lief. I do.

Mr. Arens. How many members in the orchestra ?

Mr. Lief. There are 25 members of the orchestra who traveled on
the tour.

Mr. Arens. How many of them are Americans ?

Mr. Lief. All of them. Excuse me. There are three men who play
accordians who are members of the Eussian company. They play
with the company.

Mr. Arens. Twenty-odd Americans in the orchestra ?

Mr. Lief. That is right.

Mr. Arens. How many of those twenty-odd Americans, to your
knowledge, are Communists ?

Mr. Lief. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that would conclude the staff
interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Tuck. The witness is excused.

(The witness was excused.)

Mr. Arens. Mr. Curt Conway, kindly come forward.

2542 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

I suggest, in view of the fact that he does not respond to the call
at this time, we give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he will
be here in the morning.

Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that that would con-
clude the interrogation of witnesses, at least staif-wise, and I respect-
fully sugest that we reconvene tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

Mr. Tuck. The meeting will stand in recess until 10 o'clock to-
morrow. Those witnesses who have been summoned to appear today
and who have not yet testified, will make themselves available to the
committee at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

The committee stands in recess.

(Whereupon, at 4: 20 p. m., Wednesday, June 18, 1958, the hearing
Avas recessed, to recouA^ene at 10 a. m., on the following day.)

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA
(Entertainment)

THUBSDAY, JUNE 19, 1958

United States House of Representatives,

Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,

New York, N. Y.
Public Hearings

The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met at 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room 129, Federal Court House,
Foley Square, New York, N. Y., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder, chair-
man of the subcommittee.

Committee members present : Representatives Morgan M. Moulder,
of Missouri (appearance as noted) ; William M. Tuck, of Virginia;
and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.

Staff members present : Richard Arens, staff director, and Donald
T. Appell, investigator.

Mr. Tuck (presiding) . The committee will come to order.

Mr. Arens, Mr. James Proctor, kindly come forward.

Mr. Tuck. In the testimony you are about to give do you solemnly
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?

Mr. Proctor. I do.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES D. PROCTOR, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

EPHRAIM LONDON

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Proctor. My name is James D. Proctor. I live at 20 West
84th Street and I am a free-lance publicist.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Proctor, in response
to a subpena which was sei"ved upon you by the House Committee
on Un-American Activities ?

Mr. Proctor. I am.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Proctor. I am.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Mr. London. Ephraim London, 150 Broadway, New York City.

Mr. Arens. Where are you currently employed ?

Mr. Proctor. I am currently employed for a play called Look Home-
ward, Angel.

Mr. Arens. Wlio is your employer ?

Mr. Proctor. Kermit Bloom^arden.

2543

2544 COJXUMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Arens. How long has that employment endured ?

Mr. Proctor. That play opened in New York on Thanksgiving
night, and I was employed on it for a period of 6 to 8 weeks pre-
vious to its New York opening.

Mr. Arens. Wliat was your employment immediately prior to your
employment in the production of this play ?

Mr. Proctor. I believe it was in a production called The Diary of
Anne Frank.

Mr. Arens. How long did that employment endure ?

Mr. Proctor. For a period of about 2 years.

Mr. Arens. And your employment immediately prior to that, if
you recall ?

Mr. Proctor. I believe it was a play called A View From the
Bridge.

Mr. Arens. How long did that employment endure ?

Mr. Proctor. I believe that play ran for a period of about 4 or 5
montlis.

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Proctor. I am going to read a short statement, Mr. Arens, in
reply to that question.

I refuse on several grounds to answer your question.

First, I consider your question improper. You are asking it, seek-
ing to pry into my private opinions and associations. A concomitant
of the right of free speech is the right to remain silent about one's
thinking, and I have the right — in fact, the obligation — to resist any
such invasion of my rights, to refuse to discuss or divulge my opin-
ions and associations. I, therefore, exercise my constitutional rights
under the first amendment to refuse to answer.

Second, I do not think this committee has the right, the authority,
or the power to require an answer to the question. There can be no
legitimate purpose. The only possible results of the inquiry are to
cause me to lose employment since, as you know, anyone called before
this committee alone is considered controversial and, therefore, a can-
didate for the blacklist.

And, to publicly assist the members of this committee as a profes-
sional publicist, I cannot publicly recognize the techniques employed
by the committee in that respect. The committee cannot claim it is
seeking information, since it has already questioned me in closed
session.

The committee cannot pretend after so very many years of investi-
gation that there can be any legitimate reasons for the continuance
of the investigation at this tune. I consider the first two reasons
adequate and sufficient. I know, however, if I rest on them alone
I shall be subject to harassment and expense of defending contempt
proceedings, which I cannot afford.

I, therefore, also invoke my fifth amendment rights to refuse to be
a witness against myself and on that ground, also, refuse to answer
the question.

I will add — not because this committee has any right to know, but
only because under the circumstances my failure to make a statement
may mjure my associates — that I am not a member of the Communist
Party.

Mr. Arens. Would you read the last sentence ?

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2545

Mr. Proctor. I will add — not because this committee has any right
to know, but only because under the circumstances my failure to make
the statement may injure my associates — that I am not a member of
the Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Proctor. I have just answered the question.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully request that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer the question as to whether he has ever been a mem-
ber of the Communist Party.

Mr. Tuck. The acting chairman of the committee orders and
directs you to answer the question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Proctor. I decline for the reasons I have already stated to
answer the question.

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party since
you were served with your subpena to appear before this committee
some weeks ago ?

Mr. Proctor. I have already declined to answer that question put
in another form.

Mr. Arens. I suggest it is a different question and a different time
element and I request that the witness be ordered and directed to
answer the question whether he has been a member of the Com-
munist Party since he was served with his subpena.

Mr. Proctor. I invoke my constitutional rights.

Mr. Arens. Were you a Commimist Party member in the course
of the last month ?

Mr. Proctor. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens, Were you a Communist Party member in the course
of the last 2 weeks ?

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist Party member any time dur-
ing the course of the last week ?

Mr. Proctor. I decline on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party any time
in the course of the last 2 days ?

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question for the reasons
and grounds previously stated.

Mr. Arens. Are there persons presently in the entertainment in-
dustry who, to your certain knowledge are, or in the recent past have
been, members of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Proctor. Your question assumes that I would be in a position
to know whether or not there are such people in the entertainment
industry, and I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you truthfully gave
this committee such knowledge as you possess as to whether there are
people in the entertainment industry who are members of the Com-
munist Party, you might be giving information which might be used
against you in a criminal proceeding ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Proctor. I believe that question really to be improper but I
decline to answer that question on the grounds previously stated.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully request the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer the question in order to test his good faith in the

2546 COMMUNISM ESr THE NEW YORK AREA

invocation of the fifth amendment. He has no right to invoke that
unless he truly apprehends that the information could be used against
him in a criminal proceeding.

Mr. Tuck, As acting chairman of the subcommittee, the witness is
oi'dered and directed to answer the question.

Mr. Proctor. My attorney advises me that the question is com-
pletely improper.

Mr. Arens. Does the record reflect an order and direction to the
Avitness to answer the question ? The purpose of the question is to test
the good faith of this man in invoking the fifth amendment because
unless he truly apprehends possible criminal prosecution as a result
of his answer, he does not have a right to invoke the fifth amendment.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. ScHERER. I think the statement of counsel is particularly ap-
plicable in view of the fact that the witness, in reading his statement,
said he was going to invoke the fifth amendment because he said he
Avould face great expense in contempt proceedings.

That statement on its face indicates that he is not invoking the
amendment in good faith, and not because it will incriminate him,
but because he will probably face contempt charges and put him to
great expense.

Therefore, counsel's statement in this instance is particularly
apropos in testing his good faith in invoking the amendment.

Mr. Tuck. I think the point is well taken and it becomes my duty
to advise the witness through no spirit of threat that he may find him-
self in contempt of one of the committees of Congress. In the light
of that information, do you still decline to answer that question ?

Mr. London. May I make a statement, Mr. Chairman ?

Mr. Tuck. It is my understanding, under the rules of the commit-
tee, that you are to advise your witness and he is to speak to the
committee.

Mr. London. It was for that reason that I asked the chairman's
permission. I understand the rules to be the same, but I, of course,
believe the chairman has the right to permit a statement to be made
by counsel for any witness.

Mr. Arens. The status of tlie record is that a request of the chair-
man was made by myself for an order and direction to this witness
to answer the question. Now, if lie does not answer the question, we
will proceed to another question, and the record will then speak for
itself.

Mr. Tuck. He has not said whether or not he is going to answer.

Mr. London. There is still a question to the chairman as to whether
or not I may be permitted to make a statement.

Mr. Tuck. I am not going to permit you to make a statement now.
Speak to the witness.

Mr. Arens. "Will you kindly answer the question.

Mr. Tuck. Advise tlie witness of his constitutional rights.

Mr. Proctor. Oh the advice of my attorney for the reasons given
before, I decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of a participation in March
1949 in a Cultural and Scientific (Conference for World Peace, the
so-called Waldorf-Astoria Conference, held in March of 1949 under
the auspices of I lie National (^oiincil of the Arts, Sciences, and Pro-
fessions ?

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2547

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated, the first and fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. The Secretary of State, some few years ago, character-
ized the Waldorf-Astoria ('onference as a sounding board for Com-
munist propaganda. Did you know that the Waldorf-Astoria Con-
ference was an enterprise for the dissemination of Communist
propaganda ?

Mr. Proctor. I do not think I have to discuss my political opinions
here, but I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.

Mr. Arens. Did you, as a publicist in the entertainment industry,
lend your talents, your prestige, to the promotion of this so-called
Waldorf-Astoria Conference in 1949?

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question for the reasons
previously stated.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Elia Kazan ?

Mr. Proctor. Yes, I do.

Mr. Arens. Do you know his wife?

Mr. Proctor. Yes, I do.

Mr. Arens. Did you call his wife, Elia Kazan's wife, on the tele-
phone and apologize to her for using her name, without her permis-
sion as a sponsor of this Waldorf-Astoria Conference?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question, sir. I decline on
the same grounds, to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. I should like to read you an excerpt from testimony
under oath before this committee by Elia Kazan, in which he speaks
about the Waldorf-Astoria Conference and then proceeds in part
as follows:

I did not sponsor or attend the Waldorf Peace Conference. My wife's name
was used as a sponsor without her permission. She protested and asked for
its withdrawal in a letter to Professor Harlow Shapley of Harvard University,
who had some oflScial post. She received no answer from him, but she did get
an apology from James Proctor, who had given her name without her permission.

Is this statement by Elia Kazan, to your certain knowledge, sub-
stantially true and correct?

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.

Mr. Arens. Who was J. Edward Bromberg?

Mr. Proctor. An actor.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he was a Communist?

Mr. Proctor. Your question assumes that I would be in a position
to know whether he was a Communist.

Mr. Arens. Were you in such a position ?

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.

Mr. Arens. I want to go into the question of assumption that you
complain about. Were you in a position to know whether or not
J. Edward Bromberg was a Communist ?

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you

Mr. ScHERER. Was Mr. Arens' assumption correct or incorrect?

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.

2548 COMMUNISM EST THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you now a photostatic copy
of a letter headed, "J. Edward Bromberg Memorial Evening" in
which one of the promoters of this enterprise is listed as James
Proctor,

Kindly look at this letter if you please, sir, and tell this committee
whether or not you, as a publicist in the entertainment industry,
loaned your talents, your prestige, and your name to that enterprise
honoring J. Edward Bromberg?

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated, but I would like to add that, in my opinion, this is
a very unfair question because you are, by mentioning these names,
injuring these people.

I would have the same answer if I were asked by a member of the
committee whether Mr. Arens was a member of the Communist Party.

(Document marked "Proctor Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. You would not take the fifth amendment on that, would
you ? You have never served in a Communist Party meeting with me,
have you ? If you did, you would not be invoking the fifth amend-
ment in good faith and you would be subject to a contempt action.

We would like to display to you a photostatic reproduction of a
flyer, "Broadway Supports the Miners," issued in the early 1950's in
which a number of people on Broadway — the majority of whom have
been identified under oath by live witnesses as Communists — are to
have, according to this flyer, a big midnight rally at the Carnival
Eoom, Hotel Capitol, 51st Street and 8th Avenue, to hear Millard
Lampell, who has been identified as a Communist.

Among the persons on Broadway who are lending their names and
glamor and prestige to this rally, we see listed the name of James
Proctor.

If this name is listed erroneously or without your consent, then
kindly tell us. Kindly look at that document and be good enough to
verify its authenticity, if you will, of that listing.

(A document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Proctor. Have you made a statement or are you asking me a
question ?

Mr. Arens. I think the record is clear. I respectfully suggest that
you answer the question.

Mr. Proctor. I am honestly puzzled as to the question.

Mr. Arens. Does that flier there, which you now hold in your hand
listing your name along with a nmnber of other persons sponsoring
the rally, "Broadway Supports the Miners," truly and correctly rep-
resent the fact that you did, with your knowledge and consent, let
them use your name ?

Mr. Proctor. I must decline to answer that question sir.

(Document marked "Proctor Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Have you, over the course of the last several years, as
a Broadway publicity agent, contributed your talents and your energy
and your ability to the promotion of certain Communist-front activi-
ties?

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2549

Mr. Proctor. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the grounds
previously stated.

Mr. Aeens. I respectfully suggest we conclude the staff interroga-
tion of this witness.

Mr. Tuck. There are no further questions of this witness. The
witness is excused.

Call your nest witness.

Mr. Arens. Joseph Papirofsky, kindly come forM'ard.

(At this point Mr. Moulder entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you
are about to give before this subcommittee of the United States Con-
gress will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?

Mr. Papxrofskt. I do.

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH PAPIEOFSKY (PAPP), ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, EPHRAIM LONDON

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Papirofsky. My name is Joseph Papirofsky.

Mr. Arens. Would you be good enough to spell that for us, please ?

Mr. Papirofsky. P-a-p-i-r-o-f-s-k-y. I reside at 410 Central Park
West, in Manhattan, and I am a producer of Shakespearean plays
for Central Park.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Papirofsky, in response
to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?

Mr. Papirofsky. That is right.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.

Mr. London. Ephraim London, 150 Broadway, New York City.

Mr. Arens. Are you also kno^^l, Mr. Papirofsky, as Mr. Papp ?

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes, my professional name is Mr. Papp.

Mr. Arens. "Wliere and when were you born, please sir ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I was born in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, June 22,
1921.

Mr. Arens. Give us a word please, sir, about your formal educa-
tion.

Mr. Papirofsky. High-school graduate.

Mr. Arens. And a thumbnail sketch, if you do not mind, sir, of
your professional career.

Mr. Papirofsky. Working from the present back ?

Mr. Arens. Either direction, whichever is more convenient to you.

Mr. Papirofsky. My present work is primarily centered around
the New York Shakespeare Festival, which is an educational non-
profit organization chartered by the State education department,
established for the purpose of producing plays for the general public
without admission charge.

The programs also include free performances of Shakespeare for
high-school students.

28123—58 6

2550 COAIMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Arens. May I interrupt to ask you right there, is there a dis-
tinction to be made between the New York Shakespeare Festival and
the New York Shakespeare Workshop (

Mr. Papirofsky. The Workshop is the correct coi-jjorate name
under the New York laws. Shakespearean Theater A\^rkshop is a
modification of that.

Mr. Arens. The Shakespeare Workshop produces the Shakespeare
Festival, is that correct?

Mr. Papirofsky. In effect, I would say that is correct.

Mr. Arens. If I am not burdening you too much here in the reci-
tation of the facts of this particular enterprise, what is your con-
nection with the Workshop %

Mr. Papirofsky. I am producer of the New York Shakespeare
Festival having the same role with the Workshop.

Mr. Arens. How long has the Workshop been in existence?

Mr. Papirofsky. I believe the charter was issued in Septenaber of
1954.

Mr. Arens. Is it incorporated ?

Mr. Papirofsky. It is a State-chartered organization. It is a non-
profit organization. I am the head and founder of the organization
and the moving force behind the organization.

Mr. Arens. Does it enjoy tax-free status ?

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes, it does.

Mr. Arens. Do you receive a salary from this Workshop ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I began to receive a salary 5 months ago. For
the first 3 years, I received no salary.

Mr. Arens. Is this a full-time activity by yourself \

Mr. Papirofsky. It is a most time-consuming and full-time activity.

Mr. Arens. Would you give us a word, sir, about your prior em-
ployment ?

Mr. Moulder. How is it financed ?

Mr. Papirofsky. It is financed through contributions from the gen-
eral public, from foundations, and part of the financing, indirect
finance, is the fact that w^e are on city property and the city, in effect,
contributes facilities for making that possible.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. On that same theme, could you give us a word about
the budget? What is the aggregate income and expenditure of the
organization ?

Mr. Papirofsky. It is related to what it costs to produce a Shake-
spearean play. We have clone, starting 2 years ago in the park, with
Julius Caesar, the Taming of the Shrew, which vv as done on the lower
East Side. Then we moved into the Central Park with Romeo and
Juliet.

Mr. Arens. I did not make myself clear. What is the approximate
budget of the organization per year?

Mr. Papirofsky. It is very difficult to get an exact figure, but I can
tell you what a show would cost. I mentioned the number of shows,
you might add it up, because the costs have increased as we go on
because we began to pay people's salaries. Prior to this point, there
were no salaries paid.

The production we plan to open on July 2, will cost approximately
$4,000 a week to run and has a preproduction cost of approximately
$18,000. This is the highest budget we have had yet.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2551

Mr. Arens. Would the budget in the aggregate for all of the activ-
ities of the organization run in the neighborhood of a million dollars
a year ?

Mr. Papirofsky. No, I am afraid not. I would say roughly if we
were to continue on the basis we are playing now, it would cost ap-
proximately— playing 10 or 11 months a year — $200,000 a year to
operate.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell us the employment you had
prior to your connection with the Workshop ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I did not hear the lirst part of your question.
Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us the employment you had prior to your
employment with the Workshop, just your prior employment.
(The witness conferred witli his counsel.)

Mr. Papirofsky. Prior to working with the Festival, I was em-
ployed by CBS as a stage manager.

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I am still employed by CBS as a stage manager.
Mr. Arens. When did that employment begin ?
Mr. Papirofsky. It began sometime in 1951.
Mr. Arens. What productions have you managed ?
Mr. Papirofsky. A variety of productions. I am on the staff of
the Columbia Broadcasting System and do many, many shows. The
last show I did last night was, I've Got a Secret.
Mr. Arens. "What was your connection prior to CBS?
Mr. Papirofsky. Prior to that I was in California and I worked for
the Actors' Laboratory, Inc.

Mr. Arens. How long did you work for the Actoi-s' Laboratory,
Inc.?

Mr, Papirofsky. I came to the Actors' Laboratory as a student un-
der the GI bill, and then I became employed there for approximately
2 years. I think it was from 1948 to 1950.
Mr. Arens. In what capacity ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I worked in the office as kind of a manager.
Mr. Arens. Were there any other schools with which you were con-
nected in California ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes, I also taught acting to working people at
the California Labor School ; again, this was a labor of love.

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time did you teach acting at the
California Labor School ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I do not remember exactly but I think it was for
about a year. I do not remember the exact date.

Mr. Arens. Did you teach at any other school in California?
Mr. Papirofsky. I am trying to remember. I did do some teach-
ing— this is extracurricular — at UCLA.

Mr. Arens. Did you do any teaching at the People's Drama School
of Theatre in California ?

Mr. Papirofsky. No, not in California.
Mr. Arens. Where was that ?
Mr. Papirofsky. In New York.

Mr. Arens. What period of time did you teach there?
Mr. Papirofsky. 6 or 7 months. I taught acting.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Papirofsky, are you now, or have you ever beoji, a
member of the Communist Party ?

2552 COMMUNISM m the new york area

Mr. Papirofskt. I am not now a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party at any
time since you received your subpena to appear before this committee ?

(The witness conferred with his comisel.)

Mr. Papirofskt. I must decline to answer that question on the
grounds of self-incrimination.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party during
tliQ course of the last month ?

Mr. Papirofskt. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. When were you served with your subpena to appear
before this committee? Our records reflect it, but I do not have it
readily available.

Mr. Papirofskt. I wish you would read it to me because I do not
have the exact date.

Mr. Ar^NS. You were served with your subpena to appear before
this committee on April 16, 1958, according to our records. Does
that refresh your recollection ?

Mr. Papirofskt. I think that is approximately the time.

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party at
any time since you received your subpena on April 16, 1958 ?

Mr. Papirofskt. No, sir ; I have not.

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party in
the course of the last year ?

Mr. Papirofskt. No, sir. Would you specify the years — 1957 and
1958 — no, sir ; I have not.

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party any
time since January 1955 ?

Mr. Papirofskt. I must decline to answer that question on the
grounds of self-incrimination.

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
since June 1955 ?

Mr. Papirofskt. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party any
time since February 1955 ?

Mr. Papirofskt. I must decline to answer that question on the
same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Are there persons presently in the entertaimnent in-
dustry who, to your certain knowledge, are or in the recent past have
been members of the Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred Avith his counsel.)

Mr. Papirofskt. I am afraid I do not know the answer to that
question.

Mr. Arens. Have you resigned from the Communist Party ?

Mr. Papirofskt. The assumption is that I was a member of the
Communist Party; and, therefore, I must respectfully decline to an-
swer that on the basis of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist, though not a member of the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Papirofskt. The answer to that is "No."

Mr. Arens. Have you been since January 1, 1955, a Communist?

Mr. Papirofskt. I must decline to answer that on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Did I understand you to say that when you were in-
structing at the California Labor School there was no compensation
involved ; it was a labor of love ?

COMMTJNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2553

Mr. Papirofsky. To the best of my knowledge, I think there was
no pay.

Mr. Arens. Did you know that the California Labor School was
controlled by the Communist conspiracy ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I did not know it was so controlled.

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you were teaching at the
California Labor School ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I must decline to answer that on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you were teacliing at the
Actors' Laboratory ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I must decline to answer that on the grounds pre-
viously stated.

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time did you teach at this Labora-
tory ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I think it was about 6 months.

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you were teaching at the
People's Drama School of Theater ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I must decline to answer that on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Are you a member of a professional trade union ?

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Which one ?

Mr. Papirofsky. Kadio and Television Directors Guild.

Mr. Arens. How long have you been connected with that organi-
zation ?

Mr. Papirofsky. Approximately 6 years.

Mr. Arens. Have you held any post or office in that organization ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I have never been an officer of the organization.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your period of instructing at the
California Labor School, the People's Drama School, or the Actors'
Laboratory, did you ever recruit anyone into the Communist Party ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I must decline to answer that, sir, on the same
grounds.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Papirofsky. If the intent of that question was whether I used
my position to get members into the Conmiunist Party, I must say
"No" to that.

Mr. Arens. Did you use your position as a director on behalf of
People's Drama?

Mr. Papirofsky. I taught acting at the People's Drama.

Mr. Arens. I have a thermofaxed reproduction of an article ap-
pearing in the Communist Daily Worker entitled, "Theatre Groups,
Noted Actors Wire Support to People's Drama."

The wire of support from famous actors signed by half a dozen
persons, including Joe Papirofsky, all of the executive committee of
Actors' Laboratory Theatre, reads in part :

Outraged at news of brutal hoodlum attack on Actors. Flagrant display of
direct censorship.

Kindly look at that article which Mr. Appell is now displaying to
you and tell this committee whether or not it refreshes your recollec-
tion, whether or not j'ou used your prestige in the entertainment in-
dustry in that protest,

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

2554 coMivruNiSM est the new york area

Mr. Papirofsky. I must say my answer is still unchanged, sir. I
have always been opposed to censorship and I would send another wire
if there were censorship again, lending my support to an attack of this
kind, because this was a direct attack on tliese people, and I felt
at the time that it was absolutely wrong and I would do it agam.

(Document marked "Papirofsky Exhibit No. 1," and retained in
committee files.)
Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you sent that wire ?
Mr. Papirofsky. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. AVliat name did you use when you were in California ?
Mr. Papirofsky. Joseph Papirofsky.

Mr. Arens. When did you begin the use of the name Papp?
Mr. Papirofsky. It was not my doing. It began at CBS. They
have a very small type schedule and my name was too long, and they
condensed it and they began to call me Papp, and I began to use the
name.

Mr. Arens. You have expressed yourself publicly with reference
to the committee before which you are appearing today.

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes; I did express myself publicly, if I remem-
ber correctly, and my opinion is exactly the same today as it was
then.

Mr. Arens. Is your opinion — and I am not trying to probe your
opinion — still in condemnation of Larry Parks, who broke from the
Communist Party and came before the committee and identified a
number of Communists ? Are you still hostile to that man ?
Mr. Papirofsky. Am I hostile to him ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Papirofsky. The feeling I would have about Mr. Parks would
be the same feeling I would have about anybody who would gratu-
itously injure the people who work with him in the way he did.

Mr. Arens. What if Mr. Parks, instead of having been in the Com-
munist conspiracy, had been in a narcotics ring and came before the
appropriate investigating committee and identified persons active in
the narcotics ring ? Would you be in opposition to lum then ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I am afraid I cannot go into that question because
the one case you mentioned with Mr. Parks, has to do with a man
because of the way he functioned, hurt the employment of people,
innocent people, by mentioning names, and so forth. Whereas, the
narcotic situation is hurting men's bodies and not their thinking.

Mr. Arens. You acclaimed Mr. Parks publicly at one time and
used your prestige and used the glamour of your position to acclaim
Mr. Parks when he at first refused to cooperate with the Committee
on Un-American Activities.

Mr. Papirofsky. I have no glamour and prestige. I think it is a
misnomer to use that.

Mr. Arens. You let your name be used in acclaim of Larry Parks
when he refused to cooperate with the Committee on Un-American
Activities ; is that correct ?

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes ; if you have a record of it there, I would have
to say I did.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall doing that ?
Mr. Papirofsky. No, sir ; I do not.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2555

Mr. Arens. Let me lay before you a thermofaxed reproduction of
an advertisement bearing the names of a number of persons:

The Thomas Rankin Committee Must Go !

We, the undereigned members of the acting profession, acclaim Larry Parks
one of the "unfriendly nineteen" ; We acclaim those actors who appeared in
Washington to protest the star chamber proceedings * * * those others who
broadcast their indignation on the air and in the press * * * and those who
remained to fight here. We are proud that they are upholding the finest tradi-
tions of our profession and our country.

This advertisement appeared just before Parks decided he was
going to cooperate with the committee and it bears, among others,
the name of Joseph Papirofsky.

Kindly look at that and tell us whether or not you have a recol-
lection of joining in that enterprise and letting your name be used.

Mr. Papibofsky. "The Thomas Rankin Committee Must Go''?

Mr. Aeens. Yes ; that is correct.

Mr. Papirofsky. That is my name here.

Mr. Arens. Did you consciously and knowingly lend your name to
that enterprise ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I think I have stated my position on the question
of the committee.

Mr. Arens. Did you do so in that instance ?

Mr. Papirofsky. My name is there so I certainly did.

(Document marked "Papirofsky Exhibit No. 2," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Do you recall doing it ?

Mr. Papirofsky. No ; I do not recall.

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you did it ?

Mr. Papirofsky'. I must refuse to answer on the same grounds as
I mentioned before.

Mr. Arens. Have you knowingly lent your name in the course of
your professional career to enterprises which to your certain knowl-
edge were promoted by the Communist Party ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I must decline to answer that question, sir, on the
same grounds I mentioned ])reviously.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that would conclude the staff
interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions by the committee ?

Did counsel ask you your age ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I gave my date of birth, Representative Moulder.

I would like to submit this, if you do not mind, sir. This is a maga-
zine published by the State Department and sent to Russia — an ex-
ample of American democracy at work. The work of this cover is
the work of the New York Festival. Inside there is a series of pic-
tures describing our work as descriptive of the free democratic culture.
I see no mention of the Un-American xlctivities Committee, so I
must assume what we are doing, the Department feels, is a much more
important function.

I also submit the Voice of America tapes that I have made to var-
ious countries as an examjile of free democracy to this country. I feel
that what I believe in can be best stated this way.

Mr. Scherer. When you were making those Voice of America tapes,
were you a member of the Communist Party ?

2556 COMMUNISM EST THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Papirofsky. No, sir, I was not a member of the Communist
Party when I was making the Voice of America tapes.

Mr. ScHERER. Did you disclose to the State Department that you
had been a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. PAPiRorsKY. I must declme to answer that question on the same
constitutional grounds as I mentioned prior. The State Department
requested that these pictures be submitted.

Mr. ScHERER. I was talking about the tapes.

Mr. Papirofsky. No, I must decline to answer that question on the
grounds previously mentioned.

Mr. Moulder. The magazine referred to b;^ the witness will be re-
ceived and filed with the committee in connection with your testimony
and the recordings to which you have referred will also be received in
connection with your testimony.

Mr. Papirofsky. I hope to have this back. I would like to leave
them if I can have them returned at a future date.

Mr. Moulder. All right, they will be returned to you.

I had forgotten what you said your age to be.

Mr. Papirofsky. I will be 37 this coming Sunday.

Mr. Moulder. Are you married ?

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes, sir, and I have a 3^ month old baby.

Mr. Moulder. Were you in the Armed Forces ?

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes, sir ; I was in the Navy. I was in the service
for 3 years.

Mr. Moulder. At any time during your professional career or in
connection with the work that you are doing at the present time, do
you have the opportunity to inject into your plays or into the acting or
the entertainment supervision which you have, any propaganda in any
way which would influence others to be sympathetic with the Com-
munist philosophy or the beliefs of communism ?

Mr. Papirofsky. Sir, the plays we do are Shakespeare's plays.
Shakespeare said, "To thine own self be true," and various other Imes
from Shakespeare can hardly be said to be subversive or influencing
minds. I cannot control the writings of Shakespeare. He wrote
plays 500 years ago.

I am in no position in any plays where I work to influence what
the final product will be, except artistically and except in terms of
my job as a producer.

Mr. Moulder. My point is, do you intentionally control the opera-
tion of the entertainment which you produce or supervise for the
purpose of influencing sympathy toward communism? That is my
point.

Mr. Papirofsky. The answer to that is obviously "No." The plays
speak for themselves. I began to mention the plays that we did.
Maybe some of these plays might be considered propagandistic.

Mr. Arens. We are not concerned with the plays and you laiow we
are not, and there is no suggestion here by this chairman or anyone
else that Shakespeare was a Communist. That is ludicrous and ab-
surd. That is the Commie line.

The inquiry of this committee is solely with reference to Communist
activities, Communist propaganda, the extent to which Communists,
people in the Communist Party, have used their prestige in the theater
to promote Communists; and for you to twist this testimony in the
presence of the public press here to give an implication that the

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2557

cliairman is trj'ing to elicit information from you that Shakespeare
was subversive or this committee is investigating Shakespeare, in-
vestigating that type of thing, is not only ludicrous, but it is highly
unfair.

Mr. Papirofsky. I am sorry. I think 3^ou misunderstand me.

Mr. Arens. I did not misunderstand you.

Mr. Papirofsky. I am saying that over the past years I have been
devoting all my energies to this project, in which the plays of Shake-
speare are most important.

Mr. Arens. Have 3^ou been devoting some of your energy to the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I think I have answered all of those questions the
way you have put them forward to me.

Mr. Moulder. I was very much impressed by your straightforward
and honest replies to counsel concerning j'our background and your
work. TV^ien it comes to the question of whether you have been ac-
tively connected with the Communist Party, that is a different mat-
ter. I do not intend to intei'i'ogate you about your philosophies or
beliefs unless you volunteer to submit that information.

Mr. Papirofsky. I voluntarily submitted that information because
I think it is important in terms of how I am to be judged by anybody.

Mr. IMouLDER. Have you undergone any cliange in your beliefs, in
your philosophies or social beliefs, and the form of government we
should have, during the past 2 or 3 years? Have you changed your
opinion in that connection ?

Mr. Papirofsky. Changed my opinion from what ?

Mr. Moulder. In your philosophy of government or form of gov-
ernment we should have.

Mr. Papirofsky. My opinions change constantly, and they have
changed from time to time on many, many subjects.

Mr. Moulder. You understand, of course, the Communist philos-
ophy is antispiritual, antireligious, and is very much in conflict with
our system in the American form of government and the American
way of life. Do you agree with that ?

Mr. Papirofsky. I am not antispiritual or antireligious in any way.

Mr. Moulder. You mentioned a while ago that to give names of
other people, such as Larry Parks, you considered wrong, when it does
injury to other people ?

Mr. Papirofsky. Yes.

Mr. Moulder. If commimism is not subversive or a danger to our
American form of government and our way of life, then what harm
is done by revealing the names of people who are active in the Com-
munist Party and the Communist movement?

Mr. Papirofsky. First, the question assumes I know these people.

Mr. Moulder. I am not asking you that. I am asking you, as a
result of your statement, what harm is done if communism is not
subversive and is not a threat to our form of government, and the
American way of life, then what harm does it do to reveal the names
of people who are active members of the Communist Party, if that is
true?

Mr. Papirofsky. I understand the question. Representative
Moulder. You know there is a blacklisting device that lists in the in-
dustry ; and the naming of people this way does deny these people the
right to work, which I think is terribly unfair and un-American.

2558 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Arens. Who denies them the right to work ?

Mr. Papirofsky. Because of the kinds of publicity accumulated at
tliese hearings, as was indicated yesterday, one of the people was.

Mr. Arens. Do you think it is in the public interest for those who
are in a conspiracy to be engaged in public media of expression?

Mr. Papirofsky. Do I think people should know about this, did you

Mr. Arens. Do you think it is wrong to disassociate from public
media of expression, in this country, people who are secret members
of a conspiracy which has as its vowed objective the overthrow of this
Government by force and violence ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Papirofsky. I just think it is wrong to deny anybody employ-
ment because of their political beliefs.

Mr. Arens. Do you think it is wrong to employ them if they are
members of a conspiratorial apparatus?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Papirofsky. This question that you ask assumes that there is a
conspiracy and that I know about it, and I must decline to answer it
on the same grounds.

(Witness excused.)

Mr. Arens. Mr. Benjamin Steinberg, come forward please.

Mr. MouLDi^R. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give before this subcommittee of the United States Con-
gress will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?

Mr. Steinberg. I do.

TESTIMONY OF BEN STEINBERG, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
VICTOR RABINOWITZ

Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.

Mr. Steinberg. My name is Ben Steinberg. I live at 620 East
90th Street, and I am a professional musician.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly spell your name, please ?

Mr. Steinberg. B-e-n S-t-e-i-n-b-e-r-g. I was born Benjamin, as
you said, but I always use Ben.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Steinberg, in response
to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Commit-
tee on Un-American Activities ?

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?

Mr. Steinberg. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Mr. Rabinowitz. Victor Rabinowitz, 25 Broad Street, New York.

Mr. Arens. "Wliere are you employed, Mr. Steinberg?

Mr. Steinberg. I am employed m Music Man and in many other
odd places where I do free-lance work.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ?

Mr. Steinp^erg. I am a musician. I am what is called an outside
contractor and I am a violinist and I am assistant conductor.

Mr. Arens. What do you mean by an outside contractor ?

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2559

Mr. Steinberg. I am only hesitating because I am trying to figure
out liow to make it as short as possible. The hiring methods in our
industry are rather varied, as they are in many others.

Mr. Arens. Generally speaking, what is an outside contractor^

Mr. Steinberg. An outside contractor is a man who represents the
choices of people concerned with the production of a musical show
with a theater contractor who is the only person officially empowered
to engage musicians in New York City.

Mr. Arens. Do you participate m any way as an outside con-
tractor in selecting the musicians who are to play in these produc-
tions ?

Mr. Steinberg. In some way, yes.

Mr. Arens. Tell us about that, please, sir.

Mr. Steinberg. When one starts to put together an orchestra for
a show, there are many people involved in the choices of musicians.
For instance, there may be a composer who might want a particular
musician; a musical director might want certain people; somebody
working in the office might have a musician. The theatei- contractor,
of course, will have choices and the theater owners will have choices.

Usually these choices come down to perliaps 99 choices for 24 jobs
and then I would get together with the theater contractor, and we
would try to iron out a list of 24.

Mr. Arens. You, then, participate in the selection of the musicians
wlio are to play ; is that correct ?

Mr. Steinberg. That is true.

Mr. Arens. Did you do so in Music Man ?

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Did you do so in Golden Apple ?

Mr. Steinberg. In Golden Apple I would say "No." In fact, I be-
lieve I was one of the last people engaged for Golden Apple.

Mr. Arens. Were you engaged as a conductor ?

Mr. Steinberg. As assistant conductor.

Mr. Arens. Did you participate in any other productions in the
last few years ?

Mr. Steinberg, Yes, I have conducted quite a number of things.
I was musical director for Sandhog, which is a musical at the Phoenix
Theater. I conducted for Ballet Theater. I conducted odd shows,
single things, records, different things like that.

Mr. Arens. In the production in which you are presently engaged,
did you participate in the hiring of June Eotenberg?

(The witness conferred w^ith his counsel.)

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, I did.

Mr. Arens. Did you recommend that June Eotenberg be hired ?

Mr. Steinberg. No, I did not have to because she had worked for
the same people immediately prior to this and since she is one of the
most famous of the bass players in New York, she is more than wel-
come in any orchestra.

Mr. Arens. Did you recommend or participate favorably in behalf
of Sterling Hunkins in tlie orchestra '(

Mr. Steinberg. In this case it is not necessary because he is the tirst
cello favorite of the theater contiactor and I would have no objection
to so fine a cellist as Mr. Hunkins.

Mr. Arens. Do you know Avhetiier or not June Eotenberg is a
member of the Communist Party ?

2560 coMJxnnsrisM in the new york area

Mr. Steinberg. I would like to read a short statement in answer to
tliis question, please :

The committee's investigation is not in fact being carried on for
the purposes set forth in the resolution creating it. It has harmed
one of the finest symphony orchestras in the country — an orchestra
whose Far Eastern tour for the State Department was so fantastically
successful that official citations were received from Far Eastern gov-
ernments and foreign musical organizations were formed in its honor.

It is now 11 years since the first investigation of cultural artists,
and this is the fourth consecutive year in New York City. I consider
this an illegal harassment of members of the entertaimnent industry.

This is beyond the jurisdiction of the connnittee as it is defined in
the House enabling resolution. It is not pertinent to any subject
within the coimnittee's jurisdiction.

The resolution creating this committee is unconstitutionally vague
and, hence, invalid as the Supreme Court held in the Watkins case, and
the question put by the chairman invades those privileges which I
consider to be my birthright, the freedom of association, and the
freedom of religion.

Since I will not testify as to my own associations and beliefs, I
woidd certainly not testify as to others.

Mr. Moulder. Those are your reasons for answer ?

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, sir.

Mr. Moulder. The committee directs and orders the witness to
answer the question propounded by counseL

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Air. Arens. Now, kindly answer the question.

Mr. Steinberg. I must decline to answer this question for the same
reasons.

Mr. Arens. Let the record be clear. We want the record to be
absolutely clear. We have asked you if you know or do not know if
June Rotenberg is a member of the Communist Party. You have
declined to answer that question, but you have not thus far invoked
those provisions of the fifth amendment which give you the privilege
of not giving information against yourself which you think could be
used in a criminal proceeding. Do you miderstand that ?

Mr. Steinberg. I understand it and I do not think anything can be
used in criminal proceedings against me. I believe that the fifth
amendment

Mr, Arens. Do you understand the question ? The question is, Do
you Iviiow whether June Rotenberg is a Commmiist ?

The reason why we want you to answer that question is because it is
our information that June Rotenberg is, or in the recent past has been,
a member of the Communist Party and she, along with others, has been
engaged with you in Communist activities.

We are interested in one thing and that is communism and Com-
munist activities. The reason why we want to know that is because
this committee has pending before it legislative proposals, dealing
not with musicians as you would make the press believe, but with
Communists and Commmiist activities ; and for the purpose of apprais-
ing that legislation, it is necessary for this committee to have factual
information.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2561

We have, we think, an instance here in which, if you will answer
the question, we can develop facts which will be of use to this com-
mittee in its legislative functions.

Let the record be absolutely clear. You are not invoking, I take
it, the fifth amendment in response to questions as to whether or not,
to your certain knowledge, June Rotenberg is a member of the Com-
munist Party. I just want the record to be clear on that issue.

Mr. Steinberg. I think I said 11 years of investigation of this
industry is a little bit too much for legislative use and justification,
besides which that, although I believe every word of the fifth amend-
ment is immortal — part of the Constitution of the United States — I
believe that its use by citizens has been under attack and I believe
that it is my patriotic duty to resist this attack by basing my defense
here on the fact that Congress has reserved to the people the right of
free association and free speech and it has specifically denied this area
to Government.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, so the record can be clear, so clear no one
can misunderstand it, in view of the fact that there has been an answer
intervening here, I request that you again direct the witness to answer
the question as to whether or not he knows if June Rotenberg is a
member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Moulder. Yes, the witness is ordered and directed to answer
the question.

Mr. Steinberg. I decline to answer for the same reasons.

Mr. AnENS. Could you tell us whether or not to your certain knowl-
edge Sterling Hunkins is a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Steinberg. I decline to answer for the same reasons.

Mr. Arens. Do those reasons encompass the provisions of the fifth
amendment against self-incrimination ?

Mr. Steinberg. Do you mean for me ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

Mr. Steinberg. They do not.

Mr. Arens. In other words, you are not invoking the provisions of
the fifth amendment which give you the privilege of not giving
information that could be used against you in criminal proceedings ?

Mr. Steinberg. That is right.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully request the witness be ordered and di-
rected to answer this last outstanding question. I am willing to repeat
the recitation I gave before with respect to June Rotenberg, which is
also applicable to Sterling Hunkins.

I respectfully request that the witness be ordered and directed to
answer this question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the
question.

Mr. Steinberg. I refuse to answer that. That invades my privacy
of association and free speech.

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Steinberg. I refuse to answer this question on the same
grounds.

Mr. Moulder. In other words, you are refusing to answer for all
of the reasons you have previously stated throughout your testimony
for refusing to answer ?

2562 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Steinberg. Thank you, Mr. Chairman ; that is right.

Mr. Arens. ^Vliat has been your past employment over the course
of, say, the last 3 or 4 years ? You have told us about your connection
witli Music Man and Golden Apple and 1 or 2 others. Can you give
us a fcAv of tlie highlights of the princif)al emplo^-ment you have had ?

Mr. Steinberg, I tiiink that is principally it, as far as jobs of any
length of time are concerned. I may play a single record date here
or there or conduct a day here or there.

Mr. Arens. Were you the conductor for a ballet presented in Los
Angeles by a Greek theater association ?

Mr. Steinberg. Yes ; I was.

Mr. Arens. When was that ?

Mr. Steinberg. Last August, the beginning of tlie month.

Mr. Arens. Did you have anything to do in that instance with the
employment of people ?

Mr. Steinberg. No. Since this is an orchestra engaged there, I
do not know the musicians available and who are working and who
are not. Xhey have someone there who does that.

Mr. Arens. Do you belong to a musician's union ?

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. IVliat is that ?

Mr. Steinberg. It is a fine union, Local 802.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever held any office or post in the union ?

Mr. Steinberg. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Did you make a trip for the Symphony of the Air
under the auspices of the State Department?

Mr. Steini^.erg. I did not. This was an instance in which I should
have been asked since I was a regular member of the NBC under
Toscanini. However, I was not invited, so I did not go.

Mr. Arens. Did you take any of the trips ?

Mr. Steinberg. No. I want to say in alluding to the orchestra
that was hurt, in my statement, I meant the Symphony of the Air, sir.

Mr. Arens. Were you connected, or have you been connected, with
the Metropolitan Music School, Inc. ?

Mr. Steinberg. Well, actually, no. There is this slight relation-
ship with the Metropolitan Music School. I had been asked to give
this school a scholarship and I at first refused because I just do not
like to teach.

However, since some of the teachers are of very fine standing and
they said the school needed help, I did agree to give a scholarship
for this school. However, this scholarship was never taken advan-
tage of.

I never gave a lesson for the school either at the school or any place
else. My actual association with tlie scliool was, therefore, nil. How-
ever, I must object to the kind of thing being said about this music
school. I did not see a conspiracy in this school.

Mr. Arens. Do you know any Communists in the school ?

Mr. Steinberg. I decline to answer that for the other reasons.

Mr. Arens. Wlien you say there is no conspiracy in the school, you
know, do you not, that this committee conducted such an investiga-
tion?

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, and your informer said politics was never
mixed with music.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2563

Mr. Abens. Most of the key people were identified under oath as
members of the Communist conspiracy, Communist Party. Wlien
given the opportunity to deny the identification, they all invoked the
privileges of the fifth amendment. Do you know that ?

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, but I also know I read in the Herald Tribune
tliat one person who cooperated with the committee said that politics
Avas never mixed with music at the school, so to me it is simply a music
school to teach music to children.

Mr. Arens. Did you support the V. J. Jerome Defense Committee ?
Did you lend your name to that enterprise '^

Mr. Steinberg. Mr. Chairman, this particular trial was, I felt,
one of the most important in the last decade or more since this was
the first time, I believe, people were being prosecuted for belief rather
t han deed.

I was asked to help raise funds for JMr. Jerome's defense. I felt
since this trial was important, I felt JMr. Jerome deserved, like any
other defendant, a right to a fair trial, the right to legal counsel, the
right to raise monej^s to pay his legal counsel, and all of the other
expensive procedures of a court trial.

Although I offered and I did try very hard to get musicians to appear
at a rally at wdiich they would raise money for Mr. Jerome's defense,
I was much saddened by the fact that many, many fuie musicians who
agreed that, although they did not agree with Mr. Jerome's political
views, nevertheless, they still felt he had a right to competent defense,
but were afraid to play at this rally because they were afraid tliey
would lose their jobs.

I think this is one of the basic wrongs that 20 years of investigations
of this kind has done, and that is, I believe, someone does have the
right to defend an unpopular defendant in America.

That is the kind of America that I grew up in and the kind I want
back.

Mr. Arens. "V\^io was Mr. Jerome ?

Mr. Steinberg. I believe he was one of the first 11 people to be in-
dicted under the Smith Act.

Mr. Akens. As a what ?

Mr. Steinberg. I suppose he was an official of the Communist
Party.

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you undertook to elicit
financial support for Mr. Jerome ?

Mr. Steinberg. I did not quite finish. As I said, I was saddened by
the fact that musicians who agreed with the principle, would not
j^erform. Since I was unsuccessful in getting people to play at this
l^articular rally, my association with the committee ended at that point.

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you were soliciting funds
for Jerome ?

Mr. Steinberg. Mr. Chairman, I must decline to answer that on
the same grounds as before.

Mr. Moulder. Without repeating the causes, you are now asserting
and claiming all of the reasons which you have heretofore stated
throughout your testimony as a reason for not answering?

Mr, Steinberg. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Who solicited you to solicit funds for Jerome?

(The Avitness conferred with his counsel.)

2564 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Steinberg. Mr. Chairman, the idea of naming someone for this
committee is repugnant to me. It is just an assault to me on my own
personal dignity. I could not possibly turn informer and I decline to
answer on all of the previous grounds 1 suggested.

]Mr. AiiENS. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.

]Mr. ISIouLDER. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the
question.

Mr. AuENS. It is clear you are not invoking the fifth amendment?

Mr. Steinberg. It is very clear.

Mr. Arens. Have you been a participant in the Young Communist
League ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Steinberg. I must decline to answer that on the same grounds,
Mr. Chairman.

]\Ir. Moulder. It is understood whenever you say on the same
grounds that means all of the previous reasons stated by you in the
course of your testimony.

Mr. Arens. Has the Communist Party ever given you recommenda-
tions of persons to hire or persons not to hire ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Steinberg. I decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. I want this record to be clear on one question I believe
we covered before, but which I want to repeat so that the record is clear.

Sir, are you now a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Steinberg. I have stated my answers and I am sure the com-
mittee does not want me to repeat them. I have stated my reasons
for not answering, and I am sure the committee does not want me to
repeat them. I feel my privileges of free speech are inviolate

Mr. Arens. Are you invoking those provisions of the fifth amend-
ment to the question : Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Steinberg. I do not.

Mr. Arens. Do you refuse to answer the question ?

Mr. Steinberg. I do.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully request the witness be directed and
ordered to answer the question, and if he wants me to, I will again
explain the legislative purpose and the like.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the
question.

Mr. Steinberg. I understand. My answer remains the sanie.

Mr. Moulder. You are not requesting counsel for additional in-
formation ?

Mr. Steinberg. No, I want a smoke.

Mr. Moulder. You say you are not asserting any of the provisions
under the first and fifth amendments of the Constitution ?

Mr. Steinberg. Yes, my free association and my free speech. I
felt that my privileges of free association and free speech under the
first amendment were being violated.

Mr. Moulder. They were clearly stated by you in your response for
refusing to answer, is that correct, but you are not claiming under
the fifth amendment?

Mr. Steinberg. That is right.

Mr. Arens. I suggest that would conclude the staff interrogation.

Mr. Moulder. Tlie committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.

COMMUNISM EST THE NEW YORK AREA 2565

(Brief recess.)

Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.

Mr. Aeens. Will Paul Villard kindly come forward ?

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which
you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Villard. I do.

TESTIMONY OP PAUL VILLAED, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
VICTOR RABINOWITZ

Mr. Aeens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.

Mr. Villard. Paul Villard, 245 W. 104th, New York, musician and
singer.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?

Mr. Villard. I am.

Mr. Akens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Villard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Mr. Rabinowitz. Victor Rabinowitz, 25 Broad Street, New York
City.

Mr. Arens. Are you employed, Mr. Villard ?

Mr. Villard. I am unemployed at the present time.

Mr. Akens. Where were you last employed ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Villard. I do free-lance work and have not had regular em-
ployment.

Mr. Arens. What type of free-lance work ?

Mr. Villard. Musician and singer.

Mr. Arens. Wlien were you last employed ?

(The witness conferred with his comisel.)

Mr. Villard. I decline to answer that question on the ground of
the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you likewise decline to answer where you were
last employed ?

Mr. Villard. Yes.

Mr. Arens. I am trying to abbreviate an interrogation that could
last extensively.

Have you permitted your name and talents to be used for Com-
munist causes and Communist enterprises?

Mr. Villard. This question inquires into my private beliefs and
political association and, therefore, I decline to answer on the basis
of the first amendment. I further decline, claiming the honorable
privilege of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Have you signed a nominating petition for the Com-
munist Party in New York ?

28128 — 58 7

2566 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. ViLLAKu. I decline to answer on the previous grounds.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Villard, are you now a member of the Communist
Party?

Mr. Villard. I decline to answer on the previous grounds.

Mr. Akens. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the interroga-
tion of this witness.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.

(The witness was excused.)

Mr. Arens. Mr. Richard Sasuly.

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you
are about to give to this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Sasut.t. I do.

TESTIMONY OF EICHARD SASULY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
VICTOR RABINOWITZ

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Sasuly. My name is Richard Sasuly. I live at 232 East 36t]i
Street, New York City. I am a writer.

Mr. Arens. For purposes of identification, have you been known
under any other name?

Mr. Sasuly. Some year and a half ago, Counsel, when you asked
mo that question in executive session, I refused to answer it. I have.
I do not think it has become more germane in the time gone by.

Mr. Arens. Why do you refuse to answer ?

Mr. Sasuly. I think it is of no possible concern to you, it is of no
public concern, and I decline to answer on the basis of the first and
fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. Have you been known by the name of Alex Furth ?

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. What was the name under which you were born ?

Mr. Sasuly. The name I gave to you.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served on you by the House Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties?

Mr. Sasuly. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel?

Mr. Sasuly. I am.

Mr. Arens. (Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Mr. Rabinowitz. Victor Rabinowitz, 25 Broad Street.

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ?

Mr. Sasuly. That is a question you asked a year and a half ago.
I can hardly believe that you have forgotten. It is a private mat-
ter. I refused to answer on the ground stated.

Mr. Moulder. So the record might be clear, when you say you
decline to answer on the same ground for the reasons previously stated,
do you intend to invoke your privilege under the first and fifth amend-
ments every time you make that statement?

Mr. Sasuly. I do. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for bringing it up.

Mr. Arens. Where were you born ?

Mr. Sasult. Washington, D. C.

Mr. Arens. AVhen?

COMMtJNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2567

Mr. Sasult. December 14, 1913.

Mr. Abens. a word about your education.

Mr. Sasuly. The public schools in Washington, the University of
Arizona.

Mr. Arens. When did you complete your formal education ?

Mr. Sasult. I went to the University of Arizona until 1935 and
I did a year at Columbia University after that.

Mr. Arens. Did you receive an M. A. at Columbia ?

Mr. Sasult. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. What year?

Mr. Sasult. 1936.

Mr. Arens. Give us the principal employments you have had since
you reached adulthood.

Mr. Sasult. I will add to what I said before, Mr. Counsel, that none
of my activities have been criminal or have been in any criminal area
at any time under any circumstances. Other than that, I refuse to
answer on the same grounds as I stated.

Mr. Scherer. How can you invoke the fifth amendment ? You say
none of your activities has involved anything of a criminal nature.
How can you possibly say you refuse to answer on the ground that
it might incriminate you ?

I ask you to direct the witness to answer the question, Mr. Chairman,
in view of his statement.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is so ordered and directed to answer the
question.

Mr. Sasult. It seems to me, sir, that there is a distinct possibility
that answers here may be used for the basis of some unjustified prosecu-
tion, and for that reason I stand on the ground I stated before.

Mr. Scherer. That is not the law.

Mr. Arens. Have you been employed by the Federal Government ?

Mr. Sasult. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.

Mr. Arens. Do you know Nathan Gregory Silvermaster ?

Mr. Sasult. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. He was your boss at one time in the Federal Govern-
ment.

Mr. Sasult. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Can you help this committee with respect to any
espionage activities engaged in by Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?

Mr. Sasult. I made a blanket statement, sir, as to myself and my
activities covering a lifetime. I am 44 years old. I am making no
further statement as to any other individual.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Nathan Gregory Silver-
master has engaged in espionage?

Mr. Sasult. I would doubt it extremely, but I certainly do not
know.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever applied for a United States passport?

Mr. Sasult. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds stated
before.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you told this committee
while you are under oath whether you applied for a United States pass-
port you might be supplying information which might be used against
you in a criminal proceeding ?

Mr. Sasult. If you are asking me if I can visualize how that would
be done, I can visualize how such a prosecution could result.

2568 COMMUNISM m the new tork area

Mr. Arens. Did you in any passport application make a misrepre-
sentation of fact ?

Mr. Sasult. That goes to your previous question, and I decline to
answer.

Mr. Arens. Are you the author of a book entitled, "I. G. Farben" ?

Mr. Sasult. I decline to answer on the same grounds stated.

Mr. Arens. Are you a propagandist now for the Communist Party
of the United States under the name of Alex Furth ?

Mr. Sasult. I decline to answer on the same ground.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, and ask you to affirm or
deny the fact that you are right now a propagandist for the Com-
munist conspiracy under the Communist Party. If it is not true,
deny it while you are under oath.

Mr. Sasult. I decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever served in the United States Army ?

Mr. Sasult. Yes, I did.

Mr. Arens. You were in the intelligence service of the United States
Army, were you not ?

Mr. Sasult. I decline to answer any details of my Army service.
If it is really genuinely germane, you can find out from the United
States Army.

Mr. Scherer. I request that you direct the witness to answer the
question as to whether or not he served in the intelligence division
of the Army.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the
question.

Mr. Scherer. How could that possibly incriminate you ?

Mr. Sasult. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer on the same
grounds. I decline to answer on the same grounds specified before.

Mr. Scherer. Do you mean to tell us that answering the question
as to whether you served in the intelligence service of the United
States Army might tend to incriminate you? How foolish can we
get?

Mr. Sasult. I do not believe that is foolish, I decline to answer on
the grounds stated before.

Mr. Arens. Did you engage in any illegal activities while you were
in the intelligence service ?

Mr. Sasult. Emphatically, no. I have already stated that. I have
not engaged in any illegal activities at any time.

Mr. Scherer. Then, again, I ask that you direct the witness to
answer the question whether he was ever in the intelligence service
of the United States Army. If he says he engaged in no illegal activi-
ties, how can he possibly invoke the fifth amendment ?

Mr. Moulder. You are directed and ordered then to answer the
question by Congressman Scherer.

Mr. Sasult. My answer to the Congressman is the same as before.

Mr. Arens. Were you Chief of Intelligence and Liaison for the
Finance Division of the United States Military Government?

Mr. Sasult. I decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist conspiracy
while you occupied that position ?

Mr. Sasult. I decline to answer on the same groimd.

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you a few thermofax ex-
hibits. One is from the Daily People's World, August 23, 1948, re-

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2569

view by Kichard Sasuly of a book which attacks the American Legion.

Kindly look at that article as it is displayed to you and tell the
committee while you are under oath whether you are the author of
the article.

Mr. Sasuly. On the basis of the same reasons which I stated to
you before, Mr. Counsel, including the great lapse of time between
when you first interrogated me and now, I decline to answer your
question invoking the first, fifth, and sixth amendments of the Con-
stitution.

(Document marked "Sasuly Exhibit No. 1" and retained in commit-
tee files.)

Mr. Arens. Have you authored articles attacking congressional
committees, not only the Committee on Un-American Activities which,
of course, is attacked by all Communists, but other congressional com-
mittees ?

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you a thermof ax reproduc-
tion of an article appearing in the Daily People's World, (March 19,
1948), by Richard Sasuly, attacking various congressional commit-
tees, including the Committee on Un-American Activities.

Mr. Sasuly. Is there a question with that ?

Mr. Arens. Did you author the article just displayed to you ?

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer on the grounds stated, including
the first, fifth, and sixth amendments.

(Document marked "Sasuly Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. ScHERER. Do you Imow, Witness, when you wrote those articles,
whether or not the readers of the articles knew that you were a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer that question. Congressman, on
the same gTounds.

Mr. ScHERER. Did you tell them that you were ?

(No response.)

Mr. Arens. Here is a thermofax copy of an article — New York
World Telegram, August 4, 1948 — that prompts our interest in con-
nection with espionage and espionage agents to which I should like to
direct your attention. It is with reference to a man by the name of
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster.

Part of this article reads :

Under the surveillance of FBI agents, she [Elizabeth Bentley] spent an evening
with the Silvermasters and two guests, Richard and Elizabeth Sasuly. She
[Elizabeth Bentley] reported to the FBI that Mr. Silvermaster was "very
cagey" —

and the like.

Do you recall that evening referred to in this article when you were
in session with Nathan Gregory Silvermaster and Elizabeth Bentley ?

Look at the article and see if it refreshes your recollection and tell
this committee whether or not that is a truthful recitation of the facts.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds
already invoked here.

(Document marked "Sasuly Exhibit No. 3," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

2570 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. ScHEREK. I think the record should show who Elizabeth Bentley
is.

Mr, Arens. Elizabeth Bentley is a person who courageously
served in the C 'Ommunist conspiracy at the behest of her Government
and testified respecting this group which is so casually passed off to
the American people as a political enterprise, but which in truth and
fact, so the abundance of testimony says, is part and parcel of the
international conspiracy.

Have you been an author of a series of articles in the Daily People's
World, and Our World?

Would you kindly answer the question ?

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Have you, over the course of the last 10 years, been one
of the principal propaganda agents in the United States for the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Counsel, on the
same grounds stated before.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, that over the course of the
last several years you have been one of the principal propaganda
agents in the United States for the Communist Party under various
pseudonyms. If that is not true, please deny it while you are under
oath.

Mr, Sasuly. For all of the reasons stated before this is a repeti-
tion of the same questions asked me before and I decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, as I have indicated here in the ques-
tioning, we have a great number of exhibits, all of which might well
be characterized as I have in a few instances in undertaking to elicit
from the witness information as to his activities and participation in
Communist propaganda.

I would suggest that the remaining exhibits be retained in the
committee files.

In view of the fact that we have a number of other witnesses to be
heard, I respectfully suggest we conclude the interrogation of this
witness at this time.

Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions. Governor Tuck ?

Mr. Tuck. No, sir.

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Scherer ?

Mr. Scherer. Witness, have you ever received any compensation
directly or indirectly from the Communist Party ?

Mr. Sasuly. I decline to answer that, Congressman, on the same
grounds previously stated.

Mr. Scherer. Have you ever received any compensation directly or
indirectly from the Soviet Union ?

Mr. Sasuly. Congressman, I have told you several times in the
course of this interrogation I have participated in no criminal activity
of any kind whatsoever. Other than that, I am not going to answer
questions as to the work I have done or why I have done it or under
what circumstances. Therefore, I refuse to answer that question on
the same grounds.

Mr. Scherer. Let us ask specifically without any reference to any
possible criminal activities, have you received any compensation,
either directly or indirectly, from the Connnunist Party or from the
Soviet Union for any of your writings ?

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2571

Mr. Sasuly. For tlie reasons just stated, I refuse to answer that
question.

Mr. ScHERER. I have no further questions.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.

(The witness was excused.)

Mr. Arens. Mr. Clifford Carpenter, kindly come forward.

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly sw'ear that the testimony that you
are about to give before this subcommitttee of the United States Con-
gress will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?

Mr. Carpenter. I do.

TESTIMONY OF CLIFFORD CARPENTER

Mr. Arens. Kindly idenify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Carpenter. My name is Clifford Carpenter. I live in New
York City and I am an actor.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing before this committee today in re-
sponse to a subpena served upon you by the Committee on Un-Amer-
ican Activities?

Mr. Carpenter. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. You are not represented by counsel ?

Mr. Carpenter. That is correct.

^Ir, Arens. Under the rules of this conxinittee, you have the privi-
lege of counsel.

Mr. Carpenter. I know that.

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ?

Mr. Carpenter. I am an actor and I am in a play called Sunrise at
Campobello.

Mr. Arens. That is a play here ?

Mr. Carpenter. Yes, in New York City.

Mr. Arens. How long have you been so engaged ?

Mr. Carpenter. Since the play opened.

Mr. Arens. Wlien was that ?

Mr. Carpenter. It opened the latter part of January in New York.

Mr. Arens. "Wliat have been the principal employments you have
had in the past few years ?

Mr. Carpenter. I have been an actor in the theater, and in the last
few years I worked practically not at all in radio and television. I
used to do a lot in radio and television.

Mr. Arens. Have you been working in the legitimate theater?

Mr. Carpenter. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a word or tvv^o about the places of
your employment ?

Mr. Carpenter. I was in the play. Inherit the Wind.

Mr. Arens. Was that produced by Herman Shumlin ?

Mr. Carpenter. Yes. I was in Caesar and Cleopatra, by George
Bernard Shaw ; Eve of Saint Mark, by Maxwell Anderson.

Mr. Arens. Does that cover the principal employments which you
have had?

Mr. Carpenter. I have been an actor for many, many years and
I have been in many, many plays.

Mr. Akens. Do you know a man by the name of Berthold Brecht ?

2572 COMMXJNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Carpenter. I don't know him, but I know who he is.

Mr. Arens. AVlio is he?

Mr. Carpenter. He is a dramatist, author, and playwright.

Mr. Arens. Where is he now ?

Mr. Carpenter. I think he is dead.

Mr. Arens. Did he go behind the Iron Curtain ?

Mr. Carpenter. You know, anj-^ ansAvers that I can give you, sir,
are purely what I have read in the newspapers or elsewhere. I don't
have any personal knowledge of him.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been in acquaintance with him per-
sonally?

Mr. Carpenter. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Are you, sir, a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Carpenter, No.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?

Mr. Carpenter. I decline to answer, sir, and cite my rights and
privileges under the first and fifth amendments to the Constitution,

Mr. Arens, Have you been a member of the Communist Party
since you received your subpena ?

Mr. Carpenter. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
any time in the course of the last 5 years?

Mr. Carpenter. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first
and fifth.

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party any
time in the course of the last 3 years?

Mr. Carpenter. No, sir.

Mr, Arens, In the course of the last 4 years ?

Mr, Carpenter, No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Are you presently under discipline in the Communist
Party?

Mr. Carpenter. No, sir.

Mr. Arens, Have you resigned from the Communist Party?

Mr. Carpenter. That questions implies, sir, that I was a member
of the Communist Party which, I think, is an assumption.

Mr. Arens, Do you deny that you have been a member of the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Carpenter. I say that I am not now a member of the Com-
munist Party.

Mr. Arens. Do you deny that you have been a member of the
Communist Party?

Mr. Carpenter. Mr. Arens, you just asked me if a certain number
of years ago I was,

Mr. Arens, I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or
deny the fact, that you have been a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Carpenter. I decline on the previous grounds.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest we conclude the staff interroga-
tion of this witness.

Mr. Moulder. You are excused as a witness. You may claim your
attendance fee to which you are entitled as a witness, from Mr. Appell.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2573

Mr. Arens. Mr. Leon Portnoy, kindly come forward, please.

Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about
to give before this subcommittee of the United States Congress will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?

Mr. PoRTNOT. I do.

TESTIMONY OF LEON PORTNOY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
LEONARD BOUDIN

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.

Mr. PoRTNOY. My name is Leon Portnoy. My address is 2511
Avenue I, Brooklyn, N. Y. I am a music teacher.

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ?

Mr. Portnoy. I am self-employed.

Mr. Arens. Is that the Parkway Music School Institute ?

Mr. Portnoy. No ; that is my home address.

Mr. Arens. Do you own and operate the Parkway Music School
Institute ?

Mr. Portnoy. At the executive hearing you asked me that ques-
tion, and I declined to answer it. My reasons are the same at the
present time.

Mr. Arens. I do not have your counsel's appearance here.

You are appearing in response to subpena served upon you by the
Committee on Un-American Activities ?

Mr. Portnoy. That is right.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by comisel ?

Mr. Portnoy. That is right.

Mr. Arens. Coimsel, kindly identify yourself.

Mr. BouDiN. Leonard Boudin, New York City. That is sufficient
identification for you, Mr. Counsel ?

Mr. Arens. I believe it is.

Kindly tell us if you have been known by any name other than
Portnoy.

Mr. Portnoy. I must decline to answer that question for reasons
I gave you at executive session.

Mr. Arens. What were those reasons, please ?

Mr. Portnoy. Well, this committee, in my opinion, lacks the juris-
diction to ask such a question. It is not pertinent to your work. Also,
imder the privileges and rights granted to me by the Constitution
under the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend if you told this committee
truthfully any other names under which you might have been known,
you would be supplying information that could be used against you in
a criminal proceeding?

Mr. Portnoy. I refuse to answer.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully request that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer the question.

Mr. Portnoy. I decline to answer for the same reasons.

Mr. Arens. We would like to display to you an advertisement
under music schools. New York Teacher News, Parkway Institute and
the like, vsdth Leon N . Portnoy, director.

2574 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Kindly look at the advertisement and tell this committee while
you are under oatli if tliat is a correct identification of yourself as
director of that institute.

Mr. PoRTNOY. New York Teacher News ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. PoRTNOY. I decline to answer that question, sir, for the same
reasons already given.

(Document marked "Portnoy Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens, Have you ever served in the Armed Forces ?

Mr. Portnoy. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever lived in Chicago ?

Mr. Portnoy. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Do you suppose we have the wrong name here? We
have the name of Leon Portnoy, Chicago, Army Air Force, as one
who was petitioning against the indictment of the 12 Communist
leaders.

Mr. Portnoy. I gather your investigator erred on that.

Mr. Arens. Look at this exhibit and tell us whether or not you are
the Leon Portnoy who signed that open letter on behalf of the 12
Communists.

( The document was handed to the witness. )

(The witness conferred wdth his counsel.)

Mr. Portnoy. This is bad work on the part of whoever did it.

Mr. Arens. "We certainly apologize.

Mr, ScHERER. I am not so sure. May I see it ?

Were you ever in the Army Air Force ?

Mr. Portnoy. No, sir.

Mr. Scherer. You were not in the service ?

Mr. Portnoy, No,

Mr, Arens. Did you ever live at 2511 Avenue I ?

Mr. Portnoy. I gave you that as my present address.

Mr. Arens. We have liere a nominating petition on which appears
the name Leon Portnoy, 2511 Avenue I.

Kindly look at a reproduction of that petition and tell us whether
that truly and correctly represents your signature.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Portnoy. Yes, this is my signature, and I signed it. This is
a petition for the American Labor Party, sir, which you failed to
mention for tlie press.

(Document marked "Portnoy Exliibit No. 2" and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Afr. Arens. Are yon now a member of the Communist Pait}'^?

Mr. Portnoy. I decline to answer that, sir, for the same reasons.

Mr. Arenk. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff inter-
I'ogation of this witness.

Mr. MoiJLnER, The witness is excused. We will recess until 1 : 30
p. m,

(Whereupon, at 12 : 30 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 1 : 30 p. m. the same day.)

COMMUNISM EST THE NEW YORK AREA 2575

AFTERNOON SESSION, THURSDAY, JUNE 19, 1958

Mr. Moulder. The conunittee will be in order.

Call your next witness, please.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Horace Grenell.

Mr. Grenell. I do.

TESTIMONY OF HORACE GRENELL, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

LEONARD BOUDIN

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Grenell. My name is Horace Grenell. I live at 562 Irving
Terrace, South Orange, N. J.

As to occupation, I must decline to answer for the following rea-
son : Firstly, because of the lack of jurisdiction

Mr. Moulder. Is there any question pending ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, his occupation.

Mr. Grenell. Lack of jurisdiction of the committee and the vague-
ness of its enabling resolution under tlie Watkins decision of the
United States Supreme Court.

Secondly, the question is not pertinent to any matter lawfully
within the committee's jurisdiction. Then, by reason of my rights
mider the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States
and by reason of my constitutional privilege under the fifth amend-
ment to the Constitution of the United States, which has been affirmed
by the Supreme Court of the United States; and, lastly, because —
and I feel strongly about this — there can be no legislative purpose
served since I have already testified before this committee in execu-
tive session.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities?

Mr. Grenell. Yes.

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Grenell. I have not quite finished with all of my reservations
about the committee.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Grenell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself for the record?

Mr. BouDiN. Leonard Boudin, New York City.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Grenell, are you the president of Young People's
Records ?

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer for all the reasons previ-
ously stated.

2576 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact, that you are president of Young People's Eecords. "Would
you kindly either affirm or deny that ?

Mr. Grenell. I decline to answer for the same reasons. May I have
a moment ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. We would like to display to you a certificate of incor-
poration of the Abbey Record Manufacturing Co., Inc., in New Jersey
in which are listed the directors and principal officei's of this cor-
poration.

I should like to ask you as we display it to you, whether or not you
are one of the principal operators of the Abbey Record Manufactur-
ing Co. in New Jersey.

(A document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer that on the same grounds.

(Document marked "Grenell Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Mr. Boris Morros, who has been a counterspy for the
United States Government, serving this country, has given us in-
formation to the effect that some of the fronts for Communist machina-
tions and operations in the United States have been certain record
companies, including one that he knew about specifically.

Tell us, if you please, sir, whether or not the Abbey Record Manu-
f acting Co. and its operation is a front for the Communist Party.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Does the Abbey Record Manufacturing Co. have any
agents located outside the United States ?

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer for the previously stated
grounds.

Mr. Arens. We should like to display to you another exhibit, an
article appearing in reference to Young People's Records, in which
you are identified here as Horace Grenell, president of Young People's
Records and who, according to the article, "will lead a workshop
course in Creating Music" offered mider the auspices of the Jefferson
School of Social Science.

Kindly look at this article and tell us whether you are correctly and
truly characterized there as president of that organization ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer tor the same grounds.

(Document marked "Grenell Exhibit No. 2" and retained in com-
mittee files. )

Mr. Arens. Have you been director of the Jefferson Chorus ?

Mr. Grenell. I decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Have you taught in the Jefferson School of Social
Science ?

Mr. Greenell. I decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Moulder. In order that the record may properly reflect your
reasons for declining to answer, do I understand when you say you
decline to answer on the same grounds that you are invoking the priv-
ileges provided for under the first and fifth amendments ?

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2577

Mr. Grenell. I have answered and declined to answer on those
grounds, plus the other 3 grounds which I also enumerated at the
beginning — all 5 grounds.

Mr. Moulder. When you say on the same grounds, you are invok-
ing all of those privileges under the Constitution, as well as the other
reasons stated ?

Mr. Grenell. That is right.

Mr. Arens. Have you petitioned the Federal Communications Com-
mission in Washington for an FM broadcasting license on behalf of
the Peoples Radio Foundation, Inc. ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer on the same ground as pre-
viously stated.

Mr. Abens. I display to you, sir, a reproduction of a letter which
was signed by yourself, addressed to the Federal Communications
Commission petitioning for an FM license for the Peoples Radio
Foundation, Inc.

Kindly examine that and tell the coimnittee whether or not you
afiixed your signature to that document or to a document of which
that is a reproduction.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. We do have an original with us. The Thermof ax, un-
fortunately, does not reproduce some types of ink. I wonder if that
would refresh your recollection. Would you kindly tell us if it does ?

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer on previously stated
grounds.

(Document marked "Grenell Exhibit No. 3" and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the board of directors of
People's Songs ?

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. In the course of the last several years, have you lent
your name and your prestige as a person in the entertainment field
and as a musician and as an instructor in music, to Commmiist causes
and enterprises ?

Mr. Boudin. Could we have the question repeated ?

(The pending question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer on all the grounds previ-
ously stated.

Mr. Arens. Are you now, this minute, a member of the Communist
Party ?

Mr. Grenell. I must declme to answer on the grounds previously
stated.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.

Mr. ScHERER. Wliere do you live now, Mr. Grenell ?

Mr. Grenell. As I previously stated, sir, I live in South Orange,

Mr. Scherer. What is the address ?
Mr. Grenell. 562 Irvine: Terrace.

2578 COMMUNISM m the new york area

Mr. ScHERER. Is that the same address given by the Horace Grenell
who is one of the incorporators in this Aobey Record Manufacturing
Co.?

How long have you known Norman B. Jacobowitz ?

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer, sir, for the reasons previ-
ously stated.

Mr. ScHERER. Do you know him to be a member of the party ? Is
that the reason you are refusing to answer ?

Mr. Grenell. I am sorry to say, but I must decline as before.

Mr. ScHERER. What about David Foxman ?

Mr. Grenell. I also decline to answer, sir.

Mr. Scherer. Ben Goldman, do you know him ?

Mr. Grenell. For similar reasons, I must decline to answer.

Mr. Scherer. Charles T. Baum, Jr. ?

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Scherer. Do you know James A. Prato ?

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Scherer. And Murray J. Watter ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer for the same grounds.

Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.

Mr. Moulder. I have this question : I did not miderstand what your
present employment was or did you decline to answer that ?

Mr. Grenell. I declined to answer, sir.

Mr. Scherer. I think you should direct the witness, Mr. Chairman,
and I ask that you so direct the witness, to tell us what his present
occupation is.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.

(The witness conferred w ith his counsel.)

Mr. Grenell. Again, I must decline for the reasons previously
stated.

Mr. Moulder. You do have a financial income; do you not? Do
you receive a salary ? Are you on a salary ?

Mr. Grenell. I guess for the same five reasons, I must decline to
answer the question.

Mr. Scherer. Do you get any money from the Communist Party
now ? Do you have any income, directly or indirectly ?

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Scherer. Are you engaged in any illegal activity at the pres-
ent time ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Grenell. Let me say quite strongly, sir, in answer to that ques-
tion, and I think I understand why you ask

Mr. Scherer. You refuse to answer now because it might incrimi-
nate you? I want to know if you are engaged in any illegal activity.

Mr. Grenell. I w^ant to say very strongly that in no way, in any
possible way, am I engaged in any illegal or criminal activity of any
kind.

Mr. Scherer. In view of his answer, then I ask again, Mr. Chair-
man, that you direct the witness to answer the question as to his
present employment. If he is not engaged in any illegal activity,
how can he possibly say that to tell us that would incriminate him?

Mr. jNfouuDER. The witness is directed to answer the question.

(The wif;ness conferred with his counsel.)

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2579

Mr. Grenell. I must decline to answer for the same five reasons
previously given,

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.

(The witness was excused.)

Mr. Arens. Mr. Irwin Silber, kindly come forward, please.

Mr. Silber. I do.

TESTIMONY OF IRWIN SILBER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
BERNARD JAFFE

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, resideaice, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Silber. My name is Irwin Silber. I reside at 504 Grand Street,
New York City. I am a writer, editor, publicist.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Silber, in response to a
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?

Mr. Silber. That is true.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Silber. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself for the
record ?

Mr. Jaffe. Bernard Jaffe, 135 Broadway, New York.

Mr. Arens. Have you been known by any name other than Irwin
Silber?

Mr. Silber. As I told you, I am a writer and writers frequently
use pseudonymns. Occasionally, aside from writing material under
a pen name, I have never been known under any other name, sir.

Mr. Arens. What other names

Mr. Silber. Would you explain the relevancy ?

Mr. Arens. It is our information that you are a Conmiunist Party
propagandist under a pen name.

Now, kindly tell us what pen names you have used.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Silber. I will not deny or confirm that. I w^ould like to know
how that applies to the purposes of the committee.

Mr. Scherer. I think the counsel of this committee has explained
to him why we want the information. He is a Communist propa-
gandist using a pen name, and we have a right to know it, and I
request you to direct the witness to answer the question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Silber. Despite the fact that the question and the reason for
the question have been explained to me, I still fail to see any proper
legislative purpose being served by the question or by a possible an-
swer to the question.

Mr. Arens. Would it help you to say that we have legislation pend-
ing before the committee to cope with propaganda?

We think you are a Communist propagandist.

2580 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. SiLBER. Since you phrase the question that way and base the
assumption of a pen name on Communist propagandist, I consider
that to be invading my privacy.

You are questioning me about associations or articles of any kind
that I may have or may not have written for political purposes.
You say "Communist propaganda."

Mr. Arens. The Commmiists constantly say that. Every Commu-
nist propagandist, every time he gets the opportunity, tries to pervert
a question relating to communism to one of thought control, one of
political activity, trying to bamboozle the American people into be-
lieving that the Communist Party is a political party, and you are
doing that right now.

I request, Mr. Chairman, that you direct and order the witness to
answer the question.

Mr. JMouLDER. The witness is so directed to answer the question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. ScHERER. He has had ample time to answer the question.

Mr. SiLBER. I have been directed to answer it, so I would like to
explain my reasons for not answering it. They may not be well and
sufficient but if you are satisfied with them

Mr. ScHERER. We are not satisfied. You have had time to answer.

Mr. SiLBER. I would like to state that I have not made it clear that
I have not stated all of my reasons for refusing to answer this ques-
tion. I have not invoked all of the reasons for refusing to answer
that question.

Mr. Arens. Go ahead and invoke your reasons.

Mr. SiLBER. I refuse to answer the question on a number of grounds :

First of all, I consider that, in an overall sense, the purpose of the
committee's hearing, the inquiry, is illegitimate in the sense that an
investigation into propaganda, as such, constitutes an investigation
into political beliefs and ideas, which is clearly removed from the
committee's jurisdiction by the United States Constitution and most
specifically by the first amendment to the Bill of Rights, in addition
to which, I consider that it is an invasion of my own privacy as a
writer, and a writer deals with ideals and specific ideals; and the
fact that I may have used different pen names for different purposes
clearly can have no bearing on any possible legitimate constitutional
legislation which this committee can pass, in addition to which, since
the q^uestion was phrased in such a way that it related to my possible
political beliefs and associations, I consider that the question, there-
fore, violates my own personal rights under the first amendment to
the Constitution, violating my freedom of speech and assembly and,
therefore, I cannot answer the question.

Mr. Arens. You are not invoking the fifth amendment ?

Mr. SiLBER. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. SiLBER. I just gave you a rather long recitation of my reason
for not answering the last question. I would not like to bore you
again. The answer to the question you just asked would be substan-
tially the same answer. To summarize it briefly, your question related
to my political activities and associations and you cannot possibly
ask me that question. Therefore, I refuse to answer it.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2581

Mr. Arens. Do you invoke the fifth amendment privileges against
self-incrimination in response to the question which is outstanding,
namely, are you now a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. SiLBER, I have great admiration for the fifth amendment of
the Constitution, and I do feel that anyone who invokes the fifth
amendment has a shadow cast upon him. However, there is a public
recognition, however, that the fifth amendment admits some guilt on
the part of the person using the fifth amendment. This is not true in
my case, and I do not feel it is necessarily true in the case of people
invoking the fifth amendment. However, for that reason, I choose not
to invoke the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. We want you to tell us whether or not you are now
a member of the Communist Party, because our information is that
in the recent past you have been a member of the Communist Party
and a propagandist for the Communist Party, Avriting tremendous
amounts of Communist propaganda for Communist publications and
non-Communist publications.

This committee has pending before it legislative proposals which
undertake to cope with Communist propaganda. Now, we want to
know whether you are a Communist in order to elicit information
from you as a Communist. The committee can then use your fund
of information in appraising new or remedial proposals for legis-
lation.

With that explanation, I respectfully suggest at this time, so the
record can be clear, the chairman order and direct you to answer
the question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the
question.

Mr. SiLBER. Since you raise the question of legislation pending,
would you mind referring me to the specific legislation that the com-
mittee is referring to ?

Mr. Moulder. That is not necessary. The record sliows what legis-
lation is pending, and you have been advised and informed by counsel
the legislation which is before the committee for consideration by the
committee and which will be reported to Congress for its action.

Mr. SiLBER. I asked for two reasons, sir.

First, I would really like to know what possible legislation would
cover this area.

Mr. Arens. Legislation is pending before the committee with refer-
ence to Communist propaganda, as well as suggestions not yet in
actual bill form, which undertakes to require a true labeling of Com-
munist publications.

The Internal Security Act, for example, requires certain Commu-
nist publications, after the Communist Party itself is registered or in
default of registration, to be labeled as Communist.

The Foreign Agents Registration Act has provisions relating to
labeling of Communist publications.

Believe me, sir, we are sincere and in earnest in our endeavor to
develop factual information for the purpose of devising legislation to
cope with this menace of communism, which the best experts in the
United States, undercover agents in the conspiracy, tell us is a greater
menace today than ever before.

28123—58 8

2582 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. SiLBER, I do not question your sincerity. I hope you do not
get that impression.

Mr. Arens. Then kindly answer the question.

Mr. SiLBER. Once again, for the reasons I have ah-eady stated— and
I think I have made them clear — and I may say in this connection
that I also rest myself on the majority of the Supreme Court this past
Monday in the Supreme Court case in which Justice Douglas said,
"An inquiry into political beliefs is unconstitutional."

Mr. Arens. We want to know whether you are now a member of
the Communist Party, and if that is political belief and political asso-
ciation, then our major premise is actually w^rong.

Mr. SiLBER. I disagree wnth your premise.

Mr. Arens. Are you noAv a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. SiLBER. I still refuse to answer the question on the grounds I
have previously answered.

Mr, Arens. You understand you have been ordered and directed
and you understand you have been given an extensive explanation?

Mr. SiLBER. Yes, but it does not satisfy me.

Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us where you are employed.

Mr. SiLBER. I am employed by Avon Publications.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ?

Mr. SiLBER. Publicist, publicity director.

Mr. Arens. Where is that employment?

Mr. SiLBER. 575 Madison Avenue,

Mr. Arens. How long has that employment endured ?

Mr. SiLBER, About 4 months,

Mr. Arens, What was your employment immediately prior to your
present employment ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel,)

Mr. SiLBER. Sir, I hope I do not sound redundant or anything,
but could you make clear the purpose of that question ?

Mr. Arens, Yes, sir. It is our information that you are a Com-
munist propagandist. We want to know where you have been em-
ployed to ascertain what you have done in this field of Communist
propaganda, concerning which this committee has a direct mandate
from the Congress to develop information.

Mr. SiLBER. Over the past number of years, I have had a good deal
of different types of employment. Some of it may fall within the
range of this committee and some of it may not, and I hesitate, frankly,
to bring in the names of employers who have absolutely no connection
with this,

Mr. Arens, We are not asking you to do that. Have you been con-
nected with the American Folksay Group ?

Mr, SiLBER, Yes, sir,

Mr, Arens, In what capacity ?

Mr, SiLBER, This is many years ago, I was an official of the group,
I don't remember the exact title, frankly.

Mr, Arens, How long ago was it ?

Mr, SiLBER, At least 10 years,

Mr, Arens. What post did you have ?

Mr. SiLBER. As I say, I do not remember the exact title.

Mr. Arens. Were you the director?

Mr. SiLBER. I was one of the principal people in it.

Mr. Arens. Have you been connected with People's Songs?

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2583

Mr. SiLBER. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ?

Mr. SiLBER. I was the executive director of People's Songs.

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time were you the executive direc-
tor of People's Songs ?

Mr. SiLBER. A little less than 2 years.

Mr. Arens. When?

Mr. SiLBER. From 1947 to early 1949.

Mr. ScHERER. Counsel, I think while you are asking about these
organizations, you should state for the record whether or not they
have been cited.

Mr. Arens. People's Songs has been cited.

Mr. SiLBER. Could you tell me, since the question has been raised,
could you tell me the manner in which it was cited ? I never had any
official information along those lines.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Appell will have that information for us.

Who were the other officers of People's Songs when you were con-
nected with the organization ?

Mr. SiLBER. It was 8 years ago, sir, and I was with it for only a
year and a half. I assume — you correct me if I am wrong — that the
names of the officers appeared in the People's Song. If you have
them there and it will refresh my memory, I will identify them.

Mr. Arens. Was Pete Seeger connected with People's Songs while
you were there ?

Mr. SiLBER. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ?

Mr. SiLBER. I don't remember his exact title.

Mr. Arens. Do you remember whether or not he was a member
of the Communist Party when he was connected with People's Songs?

Mr. SiLBER. I must again return to the position I took earlier on
that because I consider, despite what you have said to me, that this
constitutes questions in the area of political belief and association
and I cannot answer it about myself or anybody else.

Mr. ScHERER. Do we understand that you refuse to answer for the
reasons you have given ?

Mr. SiLBER. Yes, primarily the first amendment to the Constitu-
tion. I have also mentioned that I feel that the inquiry is irrelevant
and I feel that this particular question is irrelevant because I do not
see how any possible mentioning of anybody else's political beliefs
can affect pending legislation.

Mr. Arens. We differ on this "i^olitical beliefs." The Congress has
found through extensive investigation that the Communist Party
has a facade that it works behind. It purports to be a political or-
ganization when, in fact, it is a conspiracy.

Were you one of the promoters of the Communist peace petitions
which they were circulating here just a few years ago ?

Mr. SiLBER. I do not know what a Communist peace petition is.

Mr. Arens. I would like to display to you, if you please, a photo-
static reproduction of an article entitled "New Peace Petition Song
at 'One World' Hootenanny."

Put my name down, brother.
Where do I sign?

I'm gonna join the fight for peace,
Right down the line.

2584 COMIVIUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust,

If you don't sign up, the world goes bust,

So I'm gonna put my name down.

At the end of the article it states that reserved seats for perform-
ances are available at the Workers' Bookshop, the Jefferson Bookshop,
and at People's Artists.

Kindly look at this article which Mr. Appell will now display to
you and tell us whether or not you authored that particular song
and lent your talents as a musician, song writer, and entertainer to
that enterprise.

Mr. SiLBER. I find it hard to believe that you are interested in my
songwriting abilities.

Mr. Arens. You know we are not interested in that. Do not per-
vert the issues. We are interested in whether you, as a Communist,
used your talents on behalf of the Communist conspiracy in the United
States and its front groups. We know — and those who have investi-
gated it know — that the Communists have been promoting front
groups. We have identified, on the basis of testimony under oath,
600 organizations functioning in the United States today.

Kindly answer the question. Did you author that song and did you
author that song as part of deliberate activities to promote Communist
peace-drive activities in the United States?

Mr. SiLBER. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that there are so many
assumptions in this question that even if I were willing to answer the
question in terms of fact, they are controversial areas.

Mr. Arens. Did you author the song ?

Mr. SiLBER. Yes, I did.

Mr. Arens. Did you author it in connection with a Communist
enterprise ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SiLBER. Once you make that political characterization of the
enterprise, I do not see how I can answer it. I assure you when I
wrote this song I believed it, and at nobody's behest. I wrote it
because I thought it was worthwhile.

Mr. Arens. Did you intend for it to be used in a Communist
enterprise and only for a Communist cause?

Mr. SiLBER. When you say "Communist enterprise" and "Commu-
nist cause," you not only assume something which may not be proper
but you enter the area of political belief and association.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the
question.

Mr. SiLBER. Such a question invades my political rights. Also, I
consider the question irrelevant to any possible legitimate purpose of
the Congress and, therefore, I respectfully refuse to answer the
question.

Mr. Arens. Did you receive compensation for writing that song?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SiLBER. No, sir.

(Document marked "Silber Exhibit No. 1" and retained in commit-
tee files.)

Mr. Arens. Have you been an instructor at the Jefferson School of
Social Science?

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2585

Mr. SiLBER. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. When ?

Mr. SiLBER. I do not remember. It was for such a period of time,
I would say 6 or 7 years ago.

Mr. Arens. Wliat did you instruct ?

Mr. SiLBER. I gave two classes at the Jefferson School. I con-
ducted a course in American folk music and I gave a course in tech-
niques of square dance calling.

Mr. Arens. Did you receive compensation for that service?

Mr. SiLBER. I don't remember ; probably not.

Mr. Arens. Did you know at the time that you were instructing in
an organization which was controlled by the Communist Party ?

Mr. SiLBER. No, I don't. I never knew that and I still don't.

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist while you were instructing at
the Jefferson School ?

Mr, SiLBER. Sir, we keep getting back to the same question, and the
basis for my refusal to answer remains the same. I cannot answer
that question and I assure you in all honesty that my refusal does not
necessarily mean that if I were free to answer, that it would be yes
or no.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, based upon investigative
reports of this committee that you were a Communist while you were
instructing at the Jefferson School of Social Science.

If that is not true, deny it while you are under oath.

Mr. SiLBER. The answer to that question is the same answer I
w^ould give you if you asked me if I am a member of the Democratic
Party or Republican Party.

Mr. Arens. You are not suggesting that the Democratic or Re-
publican Party is controlled by a conspiracy of Moscow, are you?

Mr. SiLBER. I am not making any such suggestion about anybody.

Mr. Arens. Have you, over the course of the last 10 years, been
actively engaged in using your talents in the music, songwriting field
and in the instructing field for the purpose of promoting Com-
munist causes and enterprises in the United States ?

Mr. SiLBER. Again, there are a number of assumptions in the ques-
tion and while I certainly think it is clear to the committee that I
have no objection to discussing the work and the activities that I have
engaged in, once you throw in the term "Communist propaganda"
as an assumption for my activity, there is no possible way.

Mr. Scherer. Is he wrong in throwing it in ?

Mr. Selber. He is wrong because he has no right to.

Mr. Scherer. Is that assumption correct ?

Mr. SiLBER. I can neither affirm nor deny it because it is an im-
proper question.

Mr. Scherer. Assuming he is right, what would your answer
be?

Mr. SiLBER. If I answered the question and even if my answer
were "No," it would give legitimacy to the question and I cannot
do it.

Mr. Scherer. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness be ordered
and directed to answer the question.

Mr. Moulder. That is not sufficient reason. You are directed to
answer the question.

2586 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. SiLBER. I decline to answer in connection witli all questions con-
cerning political beliefs and associations.

Mr. Arexs. Does the record reflect that I asked you about pres-
ent membership in the Communist Party ?

Mr. SiLBER. I believe so.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, as in other instances, I could go into
a vast number of particular instances, all of which I have tried to
simimarize here in this one general question to the witness which
has elicited no substantial information; therefore, I respectfully sug-
gest that we conclude the staff interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Moulder. Based upon your reasons for refusing to answer, do
you have any information or knowledge concerning subversive activi-
ties within the Communist Party which would not tend to incrimin-
ate you or subject you to criminal prosecution ?

Mr. SiLBER. Sir, I have no knowledge of any activity in any politi-
cal party that Avould subject me to possible criminal prosecution.

Mr. Moulder. Then, do you have any information or knowledge
concerning any subversive activities within the Communist Party?

Mr. SiLBER. I would not like to engage in a debate, sir; but the
term "subversive" is so general, it might mean a different thing to
you than it would mean to me.

Mr. Moulder. I think the meaning of that word is very clear.

Mr. SiLBER. By "subversive" do you mean that which is opposed to
our form of government and expects to change it illegally?

Mr. Moulder. Yes.

Mr. SiLBER. As I said, I know of nothing, criminal or illegal in my
own past or in the past of others, that I could possibly testify about.
I have no knowledge of any illegal activity.

Mr. Moulder. That is, what you consider illegal ?

Mr. SiLBER. That is, to the best of my knowledge, naturally.

Mr, Moulder. In the event our country should become involved in
Avar, conflict of war, with the Soviet Union, would you be loyal to
your country and offer to serve it and be willing to serve in a conflict
with that country ?

Mr, SiLBER. Yes, sir, I would.

May I ask the proper procedure? I have prepared here a state-
ment to give to the press. Is it legitimate for me to give it to the
press ?

Mr. Arens. Before you do so, I would like to ask one question:
You recognize that you are under oath now. You recognize, also, that
when I ask you the question: Are you now a member of the Com-
munist Party, that if you make a misstatement of a material fact
you can be subject to perjury, do you not?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. SiLBER. My lawyer advises me that it depends on the ma-
teriality of the question.

Mr. Arens. You recognize, too, that when you hand a document
to the press, that document is not under oath and you cannot be sub-
ject to perjury prosecution ? I have not seen your statement. I want
to be sure you recognize it.

Since we are on this issue, do you intend in the near future to tell
the people around this community that you are not a Communist, that
"I was not going to tell the witch-hunting, red-baiting "

Mr. SiLBER. The characterization is yours.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2587

Mr. Arens. Do ^^ou intend to do that ?

Mr. SiLBER. This committee has no ri^ht to ask me my politics. I
have the right to discuss my politics with anyone I choose. It can
be with the press or with individuals, but I cannot be compelled to
discuss my politics.

Mr. Moulder. Do you consider the Communist Party a political
party ?

Mr. SiLBER. Obviously, I do.

Mr. ScHERER. In the statement that you are §oing to give to the
press, do you say anything about your membership in the Communist
Party?

Mr. SiLBER. I do not think it is proper for this committee to inquire
into the contents of my statement to the press.

Mr. ScHERER. Do you really believe that ?

jNIr. SiLBER. Yes.

Mr. ScHERER. Will you say now under oath that the statement you
are going to give to the press is true ?

Mr. SiLBER. Yes, sir.

(The statement referred to follows :)

Statement by Irwin Silbek

In testimony before the House Committee on Un-American Activities today, I
have declined to answer questions concerning political beliefs and associations.
I have taken this position in tlie belief that the defense of our Constitution and
the institutions of American democracy is the responsibility of every citizen,
and that the provisions of the first amendment to our Constitution specifically
enjoin Congress from legislating in the domain of free speech, press, and
assembly.

I believe that no committee of Congress has the right to conduct an inquiry
into the political beliefs and associations of any individual, and that to answer
such unconstitutional questions would make me a party to the violation of basic
American liberties.

I state this as a matter of deep political principle and, despite the fact that
I am not a member of the Communist Party, I believe that every American has
the right to belong to the political organization of his choice, including the
Communist Party.

I have refused to answer the questions cited above, believing that eternal vigi-
lance for the rights of the individual is the price which every citizen must pay
for his own liberty.

Mr. Moulder. Are there any other questions ?

The witness is excused.

The committee will recess for a period of 5 minutes.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order, please.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, there were two other witnesses who
were scheduled to be here this afternoon.

First was Mr. Curt Conway. On May 16, 1958, he was ordered by
telegram to appear, under continuing authority of a subpena, on June
18, 1958.

Mr. Conway has failed to appear during the course of these pro-
ceedings or by any device to notify the committee or its staff of his
inability to appear.

The next witness to l)e heard was Mr. Leo Shull. His counsel has
informally advised us that Mr. Shull, although he was here in tlie
courtroom a day or so ago, is not now available.

Mr. GiTLiN. My name is Leo Gitlin, 565 Fifth Avenue.

2588 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. ShuU was here Tuesday and Wednesday, both days, and he is
suffering from anemia which apparently causes him exhaustion and
the doctor put him to bed. I told him I wanted him here, but he said
he could not be here.

Mr. Arens. It is the recommendation of the staff, Mr. Chairman,
that the subpena under which Mr. Shull was to appear, be continued
by the chairman, subject to his appearance on arrangements by counsel
and myself.

Mr. Moulder. Without objection, it is so ordered.

Mr. GiTLiN. Thank you very much.

Mr. Arens. Under those circumstances, we have no further witnesses
to be heard this afternoon.

Mr. Moulder. In concluding the hearings here, the Chair desires to
make a statement on which both members of the subcommittee have
concurred with me in its preparation.

In concluding the hearings, I should like to make a few brief
observations.

In the first place, may I say that these hearings have been only a
sampling of a cross section of Communist activity in the entertainment
field. It has not been our objective to hear all available witnesses or
to conduct a searching investigation of all leads.

Our work takes us into so many areas of Communist activity and to
so many sections of the country that we cannot possibly do more
than to develop information or patterns of activity for the purpose of
establishing guidelines in our legislative endeavors to keep abreast of
the constantly changing tactics of the Communist operations.

Secondly, I should like to note that in these hearings we have devel-
oped information which not only confirms factual material which has
been developed by the committee elsewhere, but some new information
which will be valuable to us in appraising several legislative proposals
pending in the committee.

This information includes data on the misuse of passports by Com-
munists; the propaganda uses to which the talents of Communist
entertainers are put ; the promotions of Communist fronts and Com-
munist causes by actors and other performers who are Communists;
and the devices by which one Communist aids and abets another Com-
munist in his assignments, his employment, and his design.

Much of the information has been of necessity developed by indi-
rection, but in our investigative processes, we must be realistic and
practical in appraising and piecing together bits of information from
the testimony of witnesses who have been identified as Communists and
who try to give us as little information as possible.

Our task is not an easy one. The Communist operations in the
United States today are deeper underground, have a more clever cam-
ouflage, and are accordingly more difficult to trace. It is, nevertheless,
a greater menace than ever before.

One of the curious aspects of the Communist Party's operation in
this country is the fact that it has succeeded in surrounding itself with
a protective ring of apologists, sympathizers, and dupes who, though
not themselves Communists, do the bidding of the party.

We shall take back to Washington the transcript of the proceed-
ings here and, at the earliest opportunity, go over the material witli
our colleagues on the committee.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2589

It is a source of satisfaction to those of us who serve on the com-
mittee, that the principal security legislation of our Nation has been
the direct result of the work of this committee, but our legislative
activity in this field must continue as long as the menace of com-
munism exists.

I wish now to thank all who have cooperated with the committee
during our hearings, including the Federal judge whose courtroom
has been made available to us, the United States marshal, his deputies,
the superintendent of this building, and the representatives of tlie
press in their work of keeping the public informed of the proceed-
ings of this committee.

Governor Tuck, do you have any additional statement ?

Mr. Tuck. I have nothing else to say.

Mr. Moulder. Congressman Scherer ?

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I have no statement to make, but I
would like to offer in evidence the statement referred to by Irwin
Silber when he was on the stand a few minutes ago and which he dis-
tributed to the press immediately following his departure from the
stand. I ask that it be made a part of the record immediately fol-
lowing his testimony.

Mr. Moulder. The document referred to by counsel will be in-
corporated into the record and included as part of the testimony of
the person referred to by Congressman Scherer.

(Seep. 2587.)

Mr. Scherer. I might make this observation in connection with
that statement.

Although he refused to tell this committee whether he was a mem-
ber of the Communist Party at the present moment or had ever been
in the past, it should be noted that in his statement to the press he
merely said, "I am not a member of the Communist Party." He does
not say whether he was a member of the Communist Party this morn-
ing, yesterday, or last week.

Mr. Moulder. The committee will be adjourned.

(Wliereupon, at 2:30 p. m., Thursday, June 19, 1958, the hearing
was adjourned, subject to call of the Chair.)

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

(Entertainment)

THURSDAY, MAY 8, 1958

United States House of Kepeesentatives,

Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,

New York, N. Y.

EXECUTIVE session ^

A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to call, at 10 a. m., in room 129, Federal Courthouse, Foley
Square, New York, N. Y., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder, chairman of
the subcommittee, presiding.

« * 4: « * <: *

( The morning session was concluded at 12 : 05 p. m., whereupon a
recess was taken until 1 : 15 p. m. the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Committee members present : Representatives Bernard W. Kearney,
of New York, presiding, and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.

Staff members present : Richard Arens, staff director, and Dolores
Scotti, investigator.

Mr. Kearney. The subcommittee will be in order.

te it * * ie * ^

Mr. Aeens. Louis Solomon.

Kindly raise your right hand and be sworn.

Mr. Kearney. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?

Mr. Solomon. I do.

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS SOLOMON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
LEONAED B. BOUDIN

Mr. Arens. Have a seat, please, sir, and kindly identify yourself
by name, residence, and occupation.

Mr. Solomon. My name is Louis Solomon; I live at 226 West 70th
Street. INIy occupation is that of a free lance writer.

Mr. Arens. Would you spell tliat name, please ?

Mr. Solomon. Solomon is S-o-l-o-m-o-n.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. I asked him how he spelled the name.

^ Released by the eoiiimlttee and ordered to be printed.

2591

2592 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. BouDiN. I thought he had responded. It is S-o-l-o-m-o-n.

Mr. Arens. I am a little uncertain here. Are you also Louis Sala-
man?

Mr. Solomon. Mr. Arens, I shall decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. Raise your voice, please.

Mr. Solomon. I shall decline to answer that.

My voice is generally very loud so I have been cautioned to keep
it down. I shall decline, Mr. Arens, to answer that question on the
grounds that, according to my understanding of the rulings made by
the highest court in the land, the question that the committee raises is
not pertinent; that I question whether it is within the committee's
jurisdiction; and on the gromids of the, first amendment to the Con-
stitution, sir, and the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Are you now, this minute, a member of the Communist
Party?

Mr. Solomon. I am not, sir.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Solomon. Sir, on the grounds that I stated previously, I shall,
with all due respect to the Congress of the United States, decline
to answer this question.

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party any
time in the course of the last year ?

Mr. Solomon. Sir, I think that is the same question.

Mr. Arens. No, it is not. A year is not quite as long as forever.
Have you been a member of the Communist Party any time in the
course of the last year ?

Mr. Solomon. My understanding of that, sir, is that essentially this
is the same question.

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party any
time in the course of the last month ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Solomon. Will you forgive me a moment ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Solomon. Mr. Arens, sir, once again I shall, on the same
grounds, decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party yesterday ?

Mr. Solomon. Of course not, Mr. Arens ; but this is the same ques-
tion, and I am refusing to answer any questions, declining respect-
fully, may I say, since I respect the Congress of the United States.

Mr. Arens. You said "of course not" yesterday. That is on this
record under oath.

Were you a member of the Communist Party at any time during the
past week ?

Mr. Solomon. Mr. Arens, I respect my oath and I have sworn to tell
the truth and I shall continue to do that.

Mr. Arens. Will you tell us whether or not you were a member of
the Communist Party during the course of the last week ?

Mr. Solomon. Mr. Arens, I shall refuse to answer that question on
the same grounds as previously stated.

Mr. Arens. Are you presently under Communist Party discipline ?

COMMTINISM IN THK NEW YORK AREA 2593

Mr. Solomon. Mr. Arens, I don't understand that question actu-
ally ; but if you are asking me am I now a member of the Communist
Party, I am not, sir, and I explained that to you, I think.

Mr. Arens. AVhere are you employed ?

Mr. Solomon. At the moment I am not employed at all.

Mr. Arens. "\'\liere were you last employed?

Mr. Solomon. Mr. Arens, I shall decline to answer that question
on the grounds previously stated.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully request that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Kearney. The witness is directed to answer the counsel's ques-
tion, but your name rings a bell. Have you been connected with the
production of Wide Wide World ?

Mr. Solomon. I shall, I am sorry, sir, decline to answer that ques-
tion.

Mr. Kearney. Do you consider that being connected with the pro-
duction of Wide, Wide World would, by any stretch of the imagina-
tion, consist of testimony against yourself?

Mr. Solomon. Sir, I may not have made myself clear. I tried to
be a law-abiding citizen, and my intent in refusing to answer the ques-
tion is not limited. It has to do with the four grounds that I have
previously stated.

Mr. Kearney. Are you now connected with the production of Wide,
Wide World?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Solomon. As I indicated, I am slightly confused by the ques-
tion. I am not emploj^ed in the production of anything at this point.

Mr. Kearney. Are you working with the television program
known as Wide, Wide World ? Are you employed by that program ?

Mr. Solomon. I answered that I was not. I am not at this point
employed.

Mr. Arens. Have you been employed by that program ?

Mr. Solo^nion. I have, sir, declined to answer that question.

Mr. Ke.\rney. Mr. Counsel, if you have no further questions, I will
direct the witness to step aside, and continue the subpena that he is
under for a public hearing the week of June 15.

(Whereupon, at 3 p. m., Thursday, May 8, 1958, the subcommittee
recessed. )

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA
(Entertainment)

MONDAY, APRIL 1, 1957

United States House of Representatives,

Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,

Washington^ D. 0.
executive session ^

A subcoiTuiiittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to call, at 10 : 10 a. m., in room 226, Old House Office Build-
ing, Hon. Clyde Doyle presiding.

Committee members present : Representatives Clyde Doyle of Cali-
fornia, and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.

Staff members present : Richard xirens, staff director, and Donald
T. Appell, investigator.

Mr. Arens. Will you stand while the chairman administers an
oath to you ?

Miss Grant. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Miss Grant. I do.

Mr. DoTLE. Thank you. Will you be seated by your counsel.

TESTIMONY OF LEE GEANT (MANOFF), ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, LEONAKD B. BOUDIN

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.

Miss Grant. My name is Lee Grant. My residence is 444 Central
Park West, and occupation, actress.

Mr. Scherer. What is your occupation ?

Miss Grant. Actress.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served on you by the House Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties?

Miss Grant. Yes.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Miss Grant. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Comisel, will you kindly identify yourself.

Mr. BouDiN. T^onard B. Boudin, 25 Broad Street, New York 4,
N.Y.

^ Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.

2595

2596 COMMUNISM m the new york area

Mr. Arens. Miss Grant, could you tell us your real name ? I take
it that Lee Grant is a stage name.

Miss Grant. Yes.

Mr. Arens. And your real name, as distinguished from your staee
name, is what?

Miss Grant. I was born Lyova Rosenthal.

Mr. Arens. And your married name ?

Miss Grant. Lee Grant Manoff.

Mr. Arens. For the purpose of identification, your husband's name,
please ?

Miss Grant. Arnold.

Mr. Arens. Wliere were you born ? Also, when ?

Miss Grant. New York City, October 31, 1926.

Mr. Arens. Just a word, please, about your education ; just a thumb-
nail sketch of your education.

Miss Grant. Oh, high school and Julliard for a year, and that is all
except for dramatic schools, the Neighborhood Plajdiouse, and so on.

Mr. Arens. I did not get that.

Miss Grant. High school and Julliard for a year, and that is all
except for dramatic schools, the Neighborhood Playhouse, and so on.

Mr. Arens. What engagements have you undertaken, or been in-
volved in, in the course of the last few years as an actress? Give us
the principal productions which you have been connected with in the
last few years.

Miss Grant. Hole in the Head.

Mr. Arens. Give us a word of identification about this.

Miss Grant. I am in it now.

Mr. Arens. Wliere is it and what is it ?

Miss Grant. It is a play on Broadway. Then the last one was
Wedding Breakfast, a play on Broadway. Then Lo and Behold, play-
ing on Broadway; Arms and the Man, on Broadway; and Detective
Story, playing on Broadway and the picture; and that is the last 3
years.

Mr. Arens. Have you been engaged in the last few years in a play
called Danger ?

Miss Grant. It is a television show.

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us a few of the television engagements in
which you have performed in the last few years ?

Miss Grant. In the last few years, there aren't very many television
shows. I did about 2 years ago a Philco, and more recently I did a
Pontiac, show. I can't remember all this.

Mr. Arens. You don't remember the names ?

Miss Grant. Playwrights 1956, that was one, and another was Al-
coa— oh, Alcoa and previous to that in the last 3 or 4 years, I didn't
do any television.

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the
Communist Party ?

Miss Grant. I am not a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Commmiist Party ?

Miss Grant. I refuse on the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Were you a meniber of the Communist Party 1 year
ago?

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.

COMMUNISM EST THE NEW YORK AREA 2597

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Part^/- at any
time since you were served with your subpena to appear before this
committee ?

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer on the ground§ of the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Akens. Do you know a person by the name of Morris
Carnovsky ?

Miss Grant. Do I know such a person ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Miss Grant. Yes, I do.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Morris Carnovsky is a
member of the Communist Party ?

Miss Grant. No. I do not.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Alan Manson ?

Miss Grant. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not that person is a member
of the Communist Party ?

Miss Grant. No. I do not.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Lou Polan ?

Miss Grant. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not that person is a member
of the Communist Party ? i

Miss Grant. No. I do not.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of John Randolph?

Miss Grant. Yes, I do.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he is a member of the
Communist Party ?

Miss Grant. I do not.

Mr. Arens. Or whether or not he has ever been a member of the
Communist Party. Let me put it that way.

Miss Grant. That is in relation to my past. I refuse to answer
that.

Mr. Scherer. What was the question ?

Mr. Arens. It was with respect to her past. I should like to ask
you for the record — I should have been asking you — whether you
knew if these persons mentioned had ever been members of the Com-
munist Party.

Mr. BouDiN. Do you want to make it short ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. BouDiN. The witness would have pleaded her privilege with
respect to her past, with respect to all the prior people.

Mr. Arens. That is fine. Do you know a person named Elliott
Sullivan ?

Miss Grant. Yes, I do.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether Elliott Sullivan has ever been a
member of the Communist Party ?

Miss Grant. This is information that relates to my past, and I
must invoke my privilege under the Constitution.

Mr. Arens. Has your present employment been procured for you
by a person known to you, at any time, to be a member of the Com-
munist Party ?

Miss Grant. Would you repeat that ?

28123—58 9

2598 COMMUNISM IX THE NEW YORK AREA

Mr. Arens. Yes. Has your present employment been procured for
you by a person known to you, at any time, to be a member of the
Communist Party ?

Miss Grant.* My present employment ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, has it been procured, or facilitated in the procure-
ment, by any person known to you to have been a member of the
Communist Party ?

Miss Grant. You mean an agent?

Mr. Arens. Yes. Where are you presently employed ?

Miss Grant. WliereamI?

Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am.

Miss Grant. I am employed in a play called Hole in the Head.

Mr. Arens. Was that employment procured for you, or was the
procurement facilitated for you, by any person known by you to be a
Communist or at any time a Communist ?

Miss Grant. No.

Mr. Arens. Was your employment in the production Danger pro-
cured for you by any person who, at any time, was known to you to
have been a Communist ?

Mr. BouDiN. Could I have a word with the witness? Will you
excuse me a second, Mr. Congressman ?

Mr. DoTLE. Yes.

(Counsel conferred with the witness.)

Mr. BouDiN. The answer with respect to that, and generally, would
have been the same, namely, that Miss Grant got the job through the
routine way and is not prepared to say who were and who were not
members of the Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. Danger was a series of productions, was it not, or
was it a single production ?

Miss Grant. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Danger.

Miss Grant. You want to know what Danger is ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am.

Miss Grant. Do I answer this ? You don't know the nature of the
television show ?

Mr. Arens. No, I don't. At least this record doesn't reflect it.

Miss Grant. Danger is like any other of the television shows that
appears from week to week on a certain day.

Mr. Arens. It is a serial ?

Miss Grant. No, it is not a serial. It is a series, like Alcoa.

Mr. Arens. It is a series then ?

Miss Grant. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Which ran for how long?

Mr. ScHERER. Who was it that played in that? I have forgotten.

Miss Grant. There was no lead in Danger.

Mr. ScHERER. A different cast ?

Miss Grant. A new show every week like all these shows, Alcoa or
Montgomery or Philco.

Mr. ScHERER. Didn't you yourself play it regularly ?

Miss Grant. No.

Mr. Arens. Were you in just one show ?

Miss Grant. No.

Mr. Arens. Did you participate in more than one show ?

Miss Grant. Yes.

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2599

Mr. Arens. There were other actors and actresses who appeared in
it more than once ?

Miss Grant. Yes. You see in all these shows, such as Mr. Mont-
gomery, for instance, likes an actor, and he finds in a certain particular
play he played a father best, and another play he does the boy best, so
then he will hire him once every 6 months, you know.

Mr. Arens. But Mr. Montgomery didn't have anything to do with
this series entitled "Danger" ?

Miss Grant. No, I am giving you a going example.

Mr. Arens. I just wanted the record to be clear that Mr. Mont-
gomery had nothing to do with the series.

Miss Grant. I see.

Mr. Arens. Wlio engaged you for your performance in Danger?

Miss GrxVnt. I want to ask my counsel something.

Mr. Arens. Any time you have any doubt, go ahead and confer
with Mr. Boudin.

(The witness confers with her counsel.)

Mr. BoxjDiN. Could we have the question repeated, Mr. Arens ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

(Thereupon, the reporter read the pending question.)

Mr. BouDiN. Now, could I have a moment with the witness again?

Mr. DoTLE. Yes.

(Counsel and the witness again confer.)

Miss Grant. I decline to answ^er on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel. Miss Grant, that if you told this
committee truthfully, while you are under oath, who engaged you for
your performances in the production Danger, you would be sup-
plying information which might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ?

Miss Grant. I don't want to take the chance. It might.

Mr. Arens. Were you at any time in the course of the last 3 years
interviewed by Mr. John Cogley or any member of his staff with re-
spect to so-called blacklisting ?

Mr. BouDiN. Could I have a moment with the witness, please ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

( Counsel confers with the witness.)

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Boudin. Could it be understood that when the witness says she
refuses to answer for the same reason, it is understood that she is
invoking the fifth amendment ?

Mr. Arens. For this hearing, but not in general.

Do you honestly feel that if you told us here you had been
interviewed in the last 3 years or so by a person representing Mr. John
Cogley or Mr. John Cogley on the subject of blacklisting, you would
be supplying information which might be used against you in a
criminal proceeding?

Miss Grant. It might.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Sidney Lumet ?

Miss Grant. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Did he have anything to do with your appearances in
Danji^er?

2600 COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA

Miss Grant, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.

Mr. Aeens. Do you know whether or not Sidney Lumet has ever
been a member of the Communist Party ?

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Are you presently under Communist Party discipline ?

Miss Grant. I am not a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. Are you presently under Communist Party discipline ?

Miss Grant. I am not.

Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party discipline at any
time since you received your subpena to appear before this committee ?

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Miss Grant, what knowledge do you possess of an org-
anization known as Stage for Action ? Is there, or has there been, such
an organization known as Stage for Action ?

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Have you been connected with an organization known
as Stage for Action ?

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the
fifth amendmeiit.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected with an organization
known as People's Songs ?

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of J. Edward Brom-
berg?

Miss Grant. Mr. Bromberg is dead.

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person by that name ?

Miss Grant. Yes.

Mr. Arens. What was the nature of your association with Mr.
Bromberg?

Miss Grant. I worked with him.

Mr. Arens. Did you attend a session back in 1951 protesting ac-
tivities by the Committee on Un-American Activities with reference
to J. Edward Bromberg ?

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Did you make a speech on the subiect of the Un-Ameri-
can Activities Committee's investigation of J. Edward Bromberg in
New York City at the Hotel Diplomat back in 1951 ?

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Have you, in the course of your professional career,
let's say in the last few years, ever signed any statements for nn em-
ployer or prospective employer covering the subject matter of mem-
t3ership in the Communist Party?

COMMUNISM IN THE NEW YORK AREA 2601

Miss Grant. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever signed a so-called loyalty oath as a pre-
requisite to obtaining employment ?

Miss Grant. Same answer.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that would con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Doyle. Do you have any questions ?

Mr. SCHERER. No.

Mr. Doyle. The committee is adjourned.

(Thereupon, at 10 a. m., Monday, April 1, 1957, the committee
stood adjourned, subject to the call of the Chair.)

INDEX

Individuaxs

Page

Anderson, Maxwell 2571

Annenberg, Adelaide Klein 2534-2537 (testimony)

Atkinson, Brooks 2499

Barnhard, David A 2537

Baum, Charles T., Jr 2578

Bentley, Elizabeth 2569,2570

Berkeley, Martin 2535, 2536

Berman, Lionel 2510, 2511

Blake, George Charney 2495

Bloomgarden, Kermit 254S

Boudin, Leonard B 2573, 2575, 2591, 2595

Brecht, Berthold 2571

Bromberg, J. Edward 2547, 2548, 2600

Carnovsky, Morris 2597

Carpenter, Clifford (A.) 2571-2573 (testimony)

Carroll, Paul Vincent 2518

Chamberlain (Neville) 2512

Charney, George Blake 2527

Christlieb, Donald 2529

Cogley, John 2599

Conway, Curt 2541, 2587

Daladier (Edouard) 2512

Delaney, Hubert T 2514, 2523

Dobronofsky, Charles. (See Dubin, Charles.)

Dubin, Charles S. (born Charles Dobronofsky) 2523-2528 (testimony)

Eaton, Cyrus 2500

Fast, Howard 2515, 2536, 2537

Faulkner, Stanley 2479

Foxman, David (A.) 2578

Furth, Alex. (See Sasuly, Richard.)

Geer, Will 2483

Gersten, Bernard 2479-2489 (testimony)

Gitlin, Leo 2587

Golden, Dave 2510

Goldman, Ben 2578

Gordon, Dave 2510

Grace, Michael P 2539, 2540

Grant, Lee (born Lyova Rosenthal; Mrs. Arnold Manoff) 2476,

2595-2601 (testimony)

Green, Gil 2494

Grenell, Horace (W.) 2575-2579 (testimony)

Griswold (Erwin Nathaniel) 2504

Hecht, Ben 2518

Hitler, Adolf 2512

Hollister, Carroll 2528-2533 (testimony)

Hunkins, Sterling 2559, 2561

Hurok, S 2539

Idriss, Ramez 2.529

Jacobowitz, Norman B 2578

Jaffe, Bernard 2.579

Jerome, V. J 2563

Jones, Earl 2514-2517 (testimony)

Kazan, Elia 2547

Kazan, Mrs. Elia 2547

ii IXDEX

Pag«

Khrushchev, Nikita 2513

Klein, Joseph 2497

Koukly, George 2540

Lampell, Millard 2548

Lautner, John 2475, 2493-2495 (testimony), 2510-2514 (testimony)

Lawrence, William. ( See Lazar, William. )

Lawson, John Howard 2522

Lazar, Israel. (See Lazar, William.)

Lazar, William (also known as William Lawrence, Israel Lazar) 2490-

2493 (testimony), 2494, 2495-2498 (testimony)

Lee, Will (born William Lubovsky) 2517-2522 (testimony)

Libman, Jennie Shaludel. [See Mann, Ann Shepherd.)
Libman, Yisrol Paul Mann. {See Mann, Paul.)

Lief, Arthur (born Abraham Lipshutz) 2537-2541 (testimony)

Lipshutz, Abraham. {See Lief, Arthur.)

London, Ephraim 2543, 2549

Lubovsky, William. {See Lee, Will.)

Lumet, Sidney 2599, 2600

Mann, Ann Shepherd (Mrs. Paul Mann ; also known as Jennie Shaludel

Libman) 2506

Mann, Paul (born Yisrol Paul Mann Libman) 2475,

2476, 2498-2510 (testimony)

Manoff, Arnold 2596

Manoff, Lee Grant. (See Grant, Lee.)

Manson, Alan 2597

McCuistion, WilHam C 2497

Montgomery (Robert) 2599

Morros, Boris 2576

Nage, Imry 2520

Needleman, Isidore G 2490, 2498

O'Casey, Sean 2509

Papirofsky, Joseph (also known as Joseph Papp) 2549-2558 (testimony)

Papp, Joseph. ( See Papirofsky, Joseph. )

Parks, Larry 2521, 2554, 2555, 2557

Polan, Lou 2597

Portnoy, Leon 2573-2574 (testimony)

Prato, James A 2578

Proctor, James D 2543-2549 (testimony)

Rabinowitz. Victor 2558, 2565, 2.566

Randolph, John 2.j97

Robeson, Paul 2488, 2489, 2515

Ross, Paul M 2534

Rotenberg, June 2559-2.561

Sacher, Harry 2.528

Sasuly, Elizabeth (Mrs. Richard Sasuly) 2.569

Sasuly, Richard (also known as Alex Furth) 2566-2571 (testimony)

Scribner, David 2.517

Seeger, Pete 2.583

Shapley, Harlow 2547

Shaw, George Bernard 2571

Shull, Leo 2587, 2588

Shumlin, Herman 2.571

Silber, Irwin 2579-2587 (testimony), 2.589

Silvermaster, Nathan Gregory 2.567, 2569

Solomon, Louis (also known as Louis Salaman) 2476, 2591-2-593 (testimony)

Stalin, Josef 2.512

Steinberg, Benjamin 2558-2564 (testimony)

Sullivan, Elliott 2.597

Temple, Shirley 2475, 2476, 2500

Todd, Mike 2486

Toscanini ( Arturo) 2.562

Truman, Harry S 2500, 2531

Trumbo, Dalton 2522

Villard, Paul 2565-2566 (testimony)

Waiter, Murray J 2578

Williams, Esther 2525

INDEX 1"

Organizations _ ^

Page

Abbey Record Manufacturing Co 2576

Actors Equity Association ;;~oKon"o---i ok-q

Actors' Laboratory, Inc 2519, 2520, 2oul, 25orf

Actors Worlvshop-Paul Mann ^^^^

American Follisay Group 25*^

American Labor Party ^^A^

American Shakespeare Festival (Stratford, Conn.) 24SU, 24hd

American Tlieater Wing, Inc ^2o!>

Avon Publications -— 2o8l^

California Labor School 2o51-2oo3

Civil Rights Congress (New York State) 249o

Columbia Broadcasting System (CBS) 2551, 2554

Comiuform , V^

Communist Party, Hungary 2513

Communist Party of the U. S. A 2513

National Executive Committee 2513

New York State 2492, 2494, 2527

Cultural Division 2510-2512

New York City :

Queens County, section 10 2494

Organizational Commission 2495, 2510, 2511

Review Commission 2511

State Board 2510, 2511

International Film Festival, Fifth (Karlovy Vary, Czechoslovakia) 2505

Jefferson Chorus 2540, 2576

Jefferson School of Social Science 2584, 2585

Metropolitan Music School 2528, 2562

Moiseyev Dance Co 2538

Musicians, American Federation of Local 802 (New York City) 2540, 2562

Musicians Congress Committee 2530

Neighborhood Playhouse 2507, 2596

New Playwrights, Inc 2515, 2516

New York Shakespeare Festival 2549, 2550

Parkway Music School Institute 2573

Paul Mann Actors Workshop. {See Actors Workshop — Paul Mann.)

People's Drama School of Theatre 2551

Peoples Radio Foundation, Inc 2535, 2577

People's Songs 2582, 2583

School of the Stage for Action, Inc 2527

Stage for Action 2525

United States Government :

Army, Military Government, Finance Division 2568

University of California, Los Angeles 2551

V. J. Jerome Defense Committee 2563

Voice of America 2555, 2556

Voice of Freedom Committee 2507

West Side Anti-Fascist Committee, Theater-Radio Group 2520

Young People's Records 2575, 2576

Publications

Daily Worker 2495

Danger (TV program) 2596,2598,2599

L G. Farben (book) 2568

Investigator, The (radio-TV) 2523

Look Homeward, Angel (play) 2543

Twenty-One (quiz program) 2523

BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY

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