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Full text of "Communist activities among professional groups in the Los Angeles area. Hearings"

COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES AMONG PROFESSIONAL 
GROUPS IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA-PART 4 



HEARINGS 



BEFORE THE 



COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
^ r *s 5 , HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

EIGHTY-SECOND CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 



OCTOBER 3, 6, AND 7, 1952 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
95008 WASHINGTON : 1952 






U. S. SUPERINTENDENT Of WKOllBW. 

JWV 21 1952 



COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
United States House op Representatives 

JOHN S. WOOD, Georgia, Chairman 

FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois 

MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York 

CLYDE DOYLE, California DONALD L. JACKSON, California 

JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan 

Prank S. Tavenner, Jr., Counsel 
Louis J. Russell, Senior Investigator 
John W. Carrington, Clerk of Committee 
Raphael I. Nixon, Director of Research 

II 



CONTENTS 



October 3, 1952: 

Testimony of— Pa * e 

Max Benjamin Sosin 4109 

Louis Schonfield 4112 

Dr. Alexander E. Pennes 4114 

Dr. Joseph Hittelman 4129 

Dr. Simson Marcus 4133 

Dr. Morris R. Feder 4138 

Edwin Isiah Goodlaw 4140 

Dr. Harold Koppelman 4143 

Dr. Jack Nedelman 4148 

Dr. Milton Lester 4149 

Dr. Samuel J. Sperling 4153 

Dr. Walter Kempler 4162 

Arthur Lishner 4164 

Dr. S. Sidney Druckman 4166 

October 6, 1952: 

Testimony of — 

Oner'B. Barker, Jr 4170 

Leon Turret 4173 

Eugene R. Stone 4176 

Harmon Alexander 4181 

Lynn Whitney 4188 

Edwin Miller Max 4192 

Stanley Waxman 4201 

Herman Waldman (David Wolfe) 4207 

Annette Harper 4214 

David Ellis 4216 

William Wolff 4218 

Dorothy Comingore 4224 

Paul Perlin 4227 

October 7, 1952: 

Testimony of — 

Betty S. Selden 4236 

Sarajo Lord 4238 

ALPHABETICAL LIST OF WITNESSES 

Alexander, Harmon 4181 

Barker, Oner B., Jr 4170 

Comingore, Dorothy 4224 

Druckman, Dr. S. Sidney 4166 

Ellis, David 4216 

Feder, Dr. Morris R 4138 

Goodlaw, Edwin Isiah 4140 

Harper, Annette 42 14 

Hittelman, Dr. Joseph 4129 

Kempler, Dr Walter 4162 

Koppelman, Dr. Harold 4143 

Lester, Dr. Milton 4149 

Lishner, Arthur 4164 

Lord, Saraj o 4238 

Marcus, Dr. Simson 4133 

Max, Edwin Miller 4192 

Nedelman, Dr. Jack 4148 

in 



IV CONTENTS 

Page 

Pennes, Dr. Alexander E 4114 

Perlin, Paul 4227 

Schonfield, Louis 4112 

Selden, Betty S 4236 

Sosin, Max Benjamim 4109 

Sperling, Dr. Samuel J 4153 

Stone, Eugene R 4176 

Turret, Leon 4173 

Waldman, Herman (David Wolfe) 4207 

Waxman, Stanley 4201 

Whitney, Lynn J 4188 

Wolfe, David (see Herman Waldman) 4207 

Wolff, William 4218 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES AMONG PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 



FRIDAY, OCTOBER 3, 1952 

United States House of Representatives, 

Subcommittee of the Committee 

on Un-American Activities, 

Los Angeles, Calif. 

public hearing 

The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met, 
pursuant to recess, at 10 : 15 a. m., in room 518, Federal Building, Hon. 
John S. Wood (chairman) presiding. 

Committee members present : Representatives John S. Wood (chair- 
man), Francis E. Walter, Clyde Doyle, Harold H. Velde, and Donald 
L. Jackson. 

Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Thomas 
W. Beale, Sr., assistant counsel ; Louis J. Russell, senior investigator ; 
William A. Wheeler and Charles E. McKillips, investigators; and 
John W. Carrington, clerk. 

Mr. Wood. Let us have order, please. 

Counsel, are you ready to go forward? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. I call Dr. Max Sosin. 

Mr. Wood. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please, 
Doctor? 

You solemnly swear the evidence you shall give the subcommittee 
shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Dr. Sosin. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MAX BENJAMIN SOSIN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 
COUNSEL, THOMAS G. NEUSOM, ROBERT W. KENNY, AND DANIEL 
G. MARSHALL 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Dr. Sosin. My name is Max Benjamin Sosin. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you represented by counsel ? 

Dr. Sosin. I am represented by very able counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel identify themselves for the record ? 

Mr. Marshall. Thomas Neusom, Robert Kenny, and Daniel G. 
Marshall. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your name, please, sir ? 

Dr. Sosin. S-o-s-i-n. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Doctor ? 

Dr. Sosin. Due to circumstances over which I had no control, I was 
born on October 25, 1906, in Odessa, Czarist Russia. 

4109 



4110 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a resident of Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Sosin. I am a resident of Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided in Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Sosin. I think we got here sometime in 1921 or 1922. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to this country ? 

Dr. Sosin. I came here as an infant. I was hardly 15 months old 
when my parents left Czarist Russia because of the tryanny and 
oppression that we had there, and they had come to America because 
they had a dream of hope, of freedom, of the freedom of expression 
which they found and heard and embodied in the Bill of Rights. 

Mr. Tavenner. You know I did not ask you for the reasons why 
you left the country of your birth. 

Dr. Sosin. I just told you, why. 

Mr. Tavenner. I did not ask you the question, and I will ask the 
chairman to direct, if he will, that you confine your answer to my 
questions. 

Mr. Wood. Please do that, Doctor, and let us get along with the 

hearing. . . 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen? 

Dr. Sosin. I am. I became a citizen by virtue of derivation, be- 
cause of my father who had come here those many years ago. 

Mr. Tavenner. What has been your educational training for your 
profession, that is, your scholastic training? 

Dr. Sosin. My scholastic training started at my mother's lap, many 
years ago. I have in my blood and in my veins the hatred of tyranny, 
the hatred of oppression. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I ask the witness be directed to answer the 
question. 

Mr. Wood. Please, Doctor, let us confine our answers to the ques- 
tions. 

Dr. Sosin. I am giving you the basis of my reasoning and my edu- 
cation, which goes a long way back before I had gone even to school. 

Mr. Tavenner. That is not my question. I asked you for your 
scholastic training. 

Dr. Sosin. That is part of my scholastic training. 

Mr. Tavenner. Then I will withdraw the question, if that is the 
only interpretation you can put on it. 

Dr. Sosin. I will give you my answer to my scholastic training. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I have withdrawn the question. 

Have you used the name G. E. Donohue at any time ? 

Dr. Sosin. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the 
fifth amendment, and the entire fifth amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Louise Light has testified before this com- 
mittee that she was a member of the Communist Party from 1935 to 
1945, and that she identified you as a member of the medical branch 
of the Communist Party. I would like to ask you first whether or not 
you were a member of the medical branch of the Communist Party in 
Los Angeles, and if so, how that organization was formed, if you 
know, and its purposes. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Sosin. I refuse to answer that question on the ground of the 
first amendment, on the ground of the fifth amendment and the 
grounds of the ninth amendment and the grounds of the tenth 
amendment. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4111 

Many men have come before you who have given you most able 
reasons and which I find myself not as well qualified to give, so I have 
to resort to just naming the constitutional grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Which is just as effective in every respect. 

Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Sosin. The same question and the same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Dr. Sosin. And the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Dr. Sosin. Again you are asking me the same question and I have 
to give you the same answer on the very same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Wood. Mr. Doyle, do you have a question ? 

Mr. Doyle. Did you say you stood upon your rights under the ninth 
and tenth amendments ? 

Dr. Sosin. I think so. 

Mr. Doyle. What is the ninth amendment to the Constitution of the 
United States? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Walter. It is perfectly obvious that he does not know, and why 
press it, and we don't want to get the lawyer's definition of it; we 
know what that is. 

Dr. Sosin. Upon advice of counsel, I have found that I do not have 
to go into the choice of detail on this question. If you want to know 
what the Constitution says in the ninth amendment and the tenth 
amendment, I think the record would have it, and 

Mr. Doyle. Doctor, I asked you that question as a matter of good 
faith on your part and my part. I noticed you took a minute and a 
half to confer with your counsel after I asked you that question, which 
is perfectly proper, for them to advise you of your constitutional 
rights. 

I will ask you now what the tenth amendment is upon which you 
claimed the privilege, the tenth amendment of the Constitution of the 
United States, if you know, and if you do not know, counsel again 
with your lawyers. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Sosin. The same answer that I would give you to the ninth 
amendment will apply to the tenth amendment. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Doctor. 

Mr. Walter. What type of physician are you? 

Dr. Sosin. I am not a physician. 

Mr. Walter. What are you ? 

Dr. Sosin. I am a dentist. 

Mr. Wood. Any further questions? 

(No response.) 

Is there any reason why the doctor should not be excused from fur- 
ther attendance on the committee? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Wood. It is so ordered. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Wood. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Louis Schonfield. 



4112 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Wood. Doctor, will you please raise your right hand? 

Do you swear that the evidence which you shall give this com- 
mittee shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God ? 

Dr. SCHONFTELD. I do. 

Mr. Wood. The record will show that the same counsel represents 
the witness. 

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS SCHONFIELD, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, 
THOMAS G. NEUSOM, EGBERT W. KENNY, AND DANIEL G. 
MARSHALL 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Dr. Schonfield. My name is Louis Schonfield. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell it ? 

Dr. Schonfield. S-c-h-o-n-f-i-e-l-d. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ? 

Dr. Schonfield. I was born in Lublin, Poland, a very famous place. 
One million people were cremated there by Hitler. 

Mr. Walter. Isn't there a concentration camp at the same place 
today ? * 

Dr. Schonfield. I don't know. It could be. 

Mr. Walter. There is a very large Communist concentration camp 
there. 

Dr. Schonfield. I am an American. I live here. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to the United States? 

Dr. Schonfield. I came here in 1920. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen? 

Dr. Schonfield. By derivation. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Los Angeles? 

Dr. Schonfield. I do. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided here? 

Dr. Schonfield. I will say about 32 years since I came here. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

Dr. Schonfield. I am a dentist. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state briefly what your scholastic training 
has been for your profession ? 

Dr. Schonfield. I went through the school system of the city, 
through the grammar, junior and high schools and I went to the Uni- 
versity of California at Los Angeles, and I got my bachelor's degree 
and then I went to the University of Southern California Dental 
School, and I graduated in 1936. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, Doctor, there has been testimony before the 
Committee on Un-American Activities bv Dr. Louise Li^ht that she 
was a member of the Communist Partv "from 1939 to 1945, and she 
identified you as having been a member of the medical branch of the 
Communist Party of which she was also a member. I would like to 
ask you whether or not that is true and if so, then I would like to know 
what you know of the origin of that group and its purposes. 

Dr. Schonfield. Mr. Tavenner, I decline that question and all 
similar questions because I feel this committee has no right to ask me 
unconstitutional questions. 

I also feel, I heard yesterday something about reprisals, and I 
thought this was a legislative committee, and not a judicial committee. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4113 

something about no reprisals for someone. Evidently there may be 
some reprisals for others. 

Another thing, I feel that this committee is helping to spread fear 
and intimidation which as a little boy I saw in Poland, and we did 
not like it there, and we came here to a free country and we like it. 
here and I want to keep it that way, and I am going to fight for that 
the only way I know how, and I feel that this committee by spreading 
this fear and intimidation is not helping our country at all. 

Also, it affects my relationship to my patients. Where it concerns 
me is only a matter to me, but where they may either lose faith in 
me and seek maybe another dentist or other dentists, of which there 
is a shortage, they may also be suspicious of those people, and they 
don't know, and perhaps they too will be called before the committee 
some day, and they will have to wonder who they can go to before 
they can get somewhere where they won't have to be afraid or where 
they won't be called. 

Mr. Velde. You could very well remove that suspicion by answer- 
ing the questions honestly, and truthfully, and why don't you do it? 

Mr. Marshall. I don't think any useful purpose is served, Mr. 
Chairman, by the member challenging directly the witness. 

Dr. Sciionfield. I think I am in the middle of an answer. 

Mr. Velde. I haven't challenged the honesty of the witness, and I 
just asked him to answer the questions honestly and truthfully. 

Mr. Wood. Just a moment. Confine your remarks to your client, 
please, Mr. Marshall. 

Dr. Sciionfield. I am answering honestly. I am answering the 
way that my conscience tells me to answer, and I would like to finish 
my answer. I would like to say that I refuse to answer this question 
on the basis of the first amendment, which says that I don't have to 
open my skull and let people look into it to see who I associate with 
or what I think or how I feel, and I believe that the Constitution and 
•especially certain of the amendments were put in for the innocent. 
Therefore, I refuse on the basis of the first amendment, the fifth 
amendment, the ninth and tenth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Light also testified she attended a Communist 
Party meeting in your home. Was that true or false ? 

Dr. Sciionfield. I decline to answer that question for the same 
reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Schonfield. The same question and the same answer and the 
same reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party ? 

Dr. Schonfield. The same question and the same answer and the 
same reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. 

Mr. Velde. I have no questions. 

Mr. Jackson. I have no questions. 

Mr. -Wood. Is there any reason why this witness should not be 
excused from further attendance on the committee? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Wood. It is so ordered. 

(The witness was excused.) 



4114 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Alexander E. Pennes. 

Dr. Pennes. Just a moment. I would like to have the photographs 
taken at the beginning of my testimony, and I would like not to be in- 
terrupted during my testimony. 

Mr. Wood. That will be done. 

Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? You 
solemnly swear the evidence you shall give this committee shall be 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God \ 

Dr. Pennes. I do. 

Mr. Wood. Be seated, please, and if pictures are desired, please take 
them now, gentlemen. 

TESTIMONY OF DR. ALEXANDER E. PENNES, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 
COUNSEL, DANIEL G. MARSHALL, ROBERT W. KENNY, AND 
THOMAS G. NEUSOM 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Dr. Pennes. Just one moment, counsel. I have some notes that 1 
would like to have available in case I would like to use them. 

Mr. Chairman, may I have a moment just to make a remark to you. 
I intend to answer these questions as briefly as I possibly can without 
any delaying tactics, to the best of my ability and conscience, and I re- 
quest that I not be heckled by anyone, and I will cooperate as much 
as possible. 

Mr. Wood. You shall not be heckled by anyone, but if your answers 
are not responsive to the questions, and it is an argumentive statement. 
I will try my best to restrain it to the questions asked. 

Dr. Pennes. I will ask permission to formulate my answers in my 
own way. 

Mr. Doyee. May I just say this, Mr. Chairman, that it seems to me 
that these highly professional men ought to realize that in the room 
are many other professional men that want to get back to their 
practices, too. 

Mr. Wood. I understand. 

Mr. Doyee. It seems to me that they ought to take that into consider- 
ation. We are refusing to ask long questions of you men so you can 
get back to your busy offices. 

Dr. Pennes. I have been sitting here for 3 days. 

Mr. Doyee. We are trying to get rid of you so you can go back there. 

Dr. Pennes. Now that I am on, I would like to make my full state- 
ment. 

Air. Doyle. Many of you men sit here in the room after you are 
through testifying, I notice, and they stayed here all day yesterday 
after they finished testifying. 

Dr. Pennes. They probably canceled the whole day's work, Mr. 
Doyle. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Dr. Pennes. My name is Alexander Ellis Pennes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name, please ? 

Dr. Pennes. P-e-n-n-e-s. 

Mr. Tavenner. I notice you are represented by the same counsel 
as the previous witness. 

Dr. Pennes. I have the pleasure to be represented fortunately by 
adequate counsel, and will you please introduce yourself, gentlemen*? 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4115 

Mr. Neusom. We can state it is the same counsel. That is all right. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, doctor? 

Dr. Pennes. I was born in Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love, 
September 1, 1912, and I might just add one brief moment within 
walking distance of Independence Hall and the Liberty Bell. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside? 

Dr. Pennes. In Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. How far from the Liberty Bell ? 

Dr. Pennes. Three thousand miles, but I still feel I am within 
walking distance of it, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you feel that the Liberty Bell is of importance 
in answering the place of your birth and your present residence? 

Dr. Pennes. I think it is, and I definitely feel that way, because 
over Philadelphia there dominates a very large statue of William 
Penn, and the historic shrines in Philadelphia mean a great deal 
to me, and that is why I am here to present myself today and try 
to defend them and keep them the way they were intended to be. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

Dr. Pennes. I am a doctor of medicine and a radiologist by 
spe.cmlity. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you engaged in the practice of your 
profession in Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Pennes. I have practiced exclusively in Los Angeles for the 
past year, but I maintained a combined hospital practice and private 
practice for 4 years prior to that, and for several years before that 
I practiced exclusively at St. Joseph Hospital in Orange, Calif. 

Mr. Counsel, I would like to file my history as it developed from 
the beginning, if you don't mind, professionally and my hospital 
connections and training. I would like to have that privilege. 

Mr. Tavenner. I think all that is necessary is to state what your 
scholastic training has been and I do not object in what order you 
state it. 

Dr. Pennes. I would like that privilege of telling my professional 
and hospital training. 

Mr. Wood. You are only requested to give your training for your 
profession. That is the only question that is asked you, and will 
you confine your answer to that? 

Dr. Pennes. Just my own profession. I graduated Central High 
School in Philadelphia in 1929 with distinction. In 1929 I entered 
the University of Pennsylvania and completed a 4-year course in 
3 years with honors. At the completion of my college training, based 
on my high school and college grades, I was awarded a scholarship to 
Jefferson Medical College by the Board of Education of Philadelphia. 
I graduated from Jefferson College in 1936, and I interned at Jeffer- 
son Hospital in Philadelphia for 27 months, from 1936 to 1938. For 
1 year thereafter I was a reserve medical officer in the United States 
Army, Medical Corps. 

Following that, I spent 2 years in the Veterans' Administration 
hospital, 1 year in Bronx, N. Y., and 1 year in Leavenworth, Kans. 

Following that, I left the Veterans' Administration to take addi- 
tional training, and I might add at this point that I was a radiologist 
for the Veterans' Administration in both institutions, primarily or 
mostly at Leavenworth, Kans. 



4116 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

I then went to the University of California, in 1942, having had the 
unfortunate occurrence of being rejected for military service as a 
reserve medical officer in 1942, and I followed my medical training 
from 1942 to 1944 at the University of California Medical School. 
I finished that training as an instructor in radiology. 

I left the University of California Medical School to accept a posi- 
tion as chief radiologist at St. Joseph Hospital in Orange, Calif. I 
held that position for V% years, actually until September 22, 1951, 
when I was asked to resign because of a mention of my home on the 
previous day by you, Mr. Tavenner, when you examined one of the 
doctors during that period of the hearing. 

After the mention of my home, I might say, two times, with you 
spelling my name, I received a telephone call the next day, and I was 
not due in the hospital, and it was a Saturday. ' 

Mr. Wood. Do you think that that is responsive ? 

Dr. Pennes. Can I finish the sentence ? 

Mr. Wood. Do you think that is responsive to the question asked 
you, to give your training as a doctor? Is that part of your training 
as a doctor? 

Dr. Pennes. It was, because it changed the whole course of my 
medical career. 

Mr. Wood. And you consider that to be part of your training as a 
doctor ? 

Dr. Pennes. All right. 

Mr. Wood. I am going to let you finish the statement, but please 
let us get along with it. 

Dr. Pennes. That incident changed the course of my whole medi- 
cal career, and I think I can take 30 seconds to mention it. 

On September 21, while you were questioning a doctor, you asked 
him whether there was a certain type of meeting in my home, and 
you mentioned my name twice, and you spelled out my name to make 
sure that everybody got it, and the following day at 10 o'clock in the 
morning the superintendent of the hospital asked me to resign because 
of the associated publicity. This, mind you, after 7i/ 2 years of excel- 
lent service, admitted by the superintendent of the hospital. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was it true ? 

Dr. Pennes. Was what true ? 

Mr. Tavenner. That the meeting was held in your home. 

Dr. Pennes. Mr. Tavenner, I have lost that position 1 year ago. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was it true ? 

Dr. Pennes. And you asked me 1 year later whether that state- 
ment was true ; and if there was information you wanted, why didn't 
you call me 1 year ago, and why do you bring me up now for a posi- 
tion that I lost 1 year ago ? 

Mr. Wood. Will you answer the question ? 

Dr. Pennes. That meant a lot to me. 

Mr. Wood. Will you answer the question asked you ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Pennes. Was what question true ? 

Mr. Tavenner. This question : 

The committee is in possession of information. Dr. Abowitz, that you attended 
a meeting of the medical division of the Arts, Sciences and Professions on 
August 12, 1951, at the home of Dr. Alexander Pennes, P-e-n-n-e-s, in Los 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4117 

Angeles, that Dr. Leo Bigleman, Dr. Max Shoen were present along with a 
number of other members of the organization. Do you [Dr. Abowitz] recall that 
meeting? 

Now, do you recall that meeting ? 

Dr. Pennes. Now, Mr. Tavenner, would you please delay that ques- 
tion until I finish my medical training, and I will 

Mr. Wood. No, sir; just answer the question. You brought it up. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did that meeting occur in your home with those 
persons present? 

Mr. Wood. I will answer that question, Mr. Tavenner, even though 
it is 1 year late. The organization that you name is among approxi- 
mately 600 organizations deemed subversive by this committee, along 
with 250 periodicals. To answer a question of that type would tend, 
I say, to link me with an organization that you have already judged 
as subversive. I therefore am put in a position, I am giving you one 
reason and I intend to give you some others, if I am going to answer 
that question, I am going to answer that question fully. I am put 
in a position of refusing to answer that question on the following 
grounds : 

First of all I feel, and sincerely feel, after due consideration and 
study, that under Public Law 601 that authorized this congressional 
committee, and which after considerable discussion was found to be 
concerned with the investigation of subversive propaganda activities, 
and in view of that law the true intent of that law, and also in due 
consideration, I say, gentlemen, in due consideration of all of the 
meaning and intent of the Constitution of the United States, I must 
refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Wood. You do not have to. 

Dr. Pennes. I chose to not answer that because of my sincere con- 
science on this matter that this committee to my opinion has been 
acting illegally and not in the true intent for which it was intended. 
The main production of the function of the committee, and I have 
paid a lot of attention to it during the past few years, has been the 
production of what is considered in this country completely undemo- 
cratic and contrary to the Constitution of the United States, and by 
that I refer to a blacklist that banishes people from employment so 
that you castigate and exile people so that they are no longer em- 
ployable. You force their children practically to starve, and I say 
that advisedly, because people cannot gain employment. 

Therefore this committee has in essence become both an accuser, a 
judge, and you inflict punishment on the individual unless he con- 
forms, and the price for political unorthodoxy, if you please, is a 
blacklist that we in Los Angeles know too well about, and I sit before 
you as an example of a professional blacklisted on two occasions. 

I have told you about St. Joseph Hospital, and I mean to tell you 
about another hospital in this city from which I have been blacklisted. 
That is my first reason. 

Mr. Wood. I am not going to permit that to stand unchallenged. 
If you conceive that you are on a blacklist as a result of the testimony 
of the witnesses that have been called to your attention, you are in 
the same forum now that they were. 

Dr. Pennes. I realize that I am in the same forum, Mi-. Wood, 
and I am exercising my rights as an American citizen. That is the 
first reason. 



4118 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

The next reason why I cannot answer that question is because I 
sincerely believe, after due observation of the last 3 clays, and I have 
been sitting here for 3 days, that these hearings are not objective and 
not impartial, both from the way you treat the witnesses, the attorneys. 
I mean by that the way you treat friendly and unfriendly witnesses, 
and especially from the point of view of time and interruption 
and courtesy. 

I mentioned, and I mention as my third point specifically, that 
this committee has usurped for itself judicial power. My fourth 
reason for refusing to answer is that, if I were to answer a question 
like that in true conscience, I would be degraded among my fellow 
men. I have heard friendly witnesses say that it is difficult. 

Mr. Wood. Do not let us argue, Doctor. 

Dr. Pennes. I am sorry. I take that back. 

The next point that I would like to make, which I believe is No. 5, 
is that I feel that the proceedings, and I say this also after due con- 
sideration and with all of the sincerity that I can muster, that the 
due consideration of the proceedings of this committee in view of 
Public Law 601 and all of the facets of the Constitution of the United 
States, the aims and purposes as set forth in 601, and what lias actually 
happened from that piece of legislation in your proceedings, is the 
biggest hoax that has ever been perpetrated on the American people. 
This is not truly a legislative committee, you are not truly looking for 
information, because if you were, there are a lot of ways that you 
can get it without hurting people, without the blacklist, and without 
making people unemployable. You force them to be unemployable 
after you mention their name unless they become friendly witnesses. 
That is punitive and it is against the basic concepts of the American 
Constitution, and I am here today to defend it with all of my strength. 

The next point, and the reason why I can't answer that question, is 
because as a physician and a citizen I put in too many years of my 
life. I am a conscientious American citizen and a physician, and I 
feel that you have injured me personally, and you have made it more 
difficult for me to practice, and you have hurt my relationship with 
physicians, and you have hurt the relationship between patients and 
phvsicians, and, lastly, you have hurt the relationship between phy- 
sicians and their patients. Patients hesitate to come to physicians 

Mr. Wood'. You are argumentative now. 

Dr. Pennes. I take that back. 

The next point is that .this committee has instilled in the American 
people practically unprecedented intimidation and hysteria, so that 
an individual, in order to maintain his job in the Government service 
or in the Los Angeles teaching department or in studios, has to come 
before this committee and do the thing that he knows he does not want 
to do, and very often they are forced to do it to save their own posi- 
tion or their wives' position, and I have actually seen it and, you have 
deliberately rewarded an individual after such testimony, even though 
he has said he has seen nothing subversive about an organization to 
which he belonged. You madeit a point to get the name of his wife 
so as to make sure that she is not hurt, because he was a good boy. 
1 don't intend to be a good boy. I intend to stand up here and defend 
the Bill of Rights. 

Mr. Wood. You are argumentative again, sir. 

Dr. Pennes. The next point 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4119 

Mr. Velde. I think the admission that he does not "intend to be a 
good boy'' should be important. 

Dr. Pennes. I don't want you to consider me a good boy, and I 
would be insulted 

Mr. Velde. I assure you I do not. 

Mr. Jackson. Do not have any doubts on that score as far as I am 
concerned. 

Mr. Wood. Now, let us have order. 

Dr. Pennes. The next point is that I feel that this committee is 
forcing conformity and political orthodoxy, and the forefathers of 
this country and those who framed the Constitution never intended 
it to be that way. 

Mr. Wood. You are argumentative again. I am not going to permit 
the harangue very much further; and, if you have got reasons, let 
us have them. 

Dr. Pennes. Now, as a physician, and I am no lawyer, but I took 
the trouble to read the whole Bill of Rights and the Constitution. 

Mr. Wood. That is argumentative also. 

Dr. Pennes. Under the sixth amendment there is something about 
the speed with which justice should be given. I stand before you as 
a victim of 1 year's duration, and I 

Mr. Wood. You are arguing the question again. When you claim 
the sixth amendment, if you do, give the committee credit for being 
able to interpret it. 

Dr. Pennes. I stand before you as a victim of the lack of speed of 
1 year's duration with no attempt to answer. Regardless of how I 
would answer, I wanted that opportunity, and got one a year later. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you ask for an opportunity? Did you come 
forward during those hearings to straighten out any testimony that 
might have been wrong?' 

Dr. Pennes. There was no testimony that involved me. It was a 
question by you, Mr. Tavenner, and you did not mention my name; you 
mentioned my home. 

Mr. Wood. I think the record should show that I think that for 4 
years that I have presided over this committee T have announced 
publicly time after time over the radio and the public press that any 
person whose name has been mentioned by any witness in connection 
with the hearings before this committee not only was at liberty, but was 
invited, if they desired to do so, to appear before the committee and 
deny such insinuations, or explain them, or admit them. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, may I emphasize your statement right 
here ? 

Mr. Wood. Any statement to that effect is completely unwarranted 
by the facts, and it is not supported by the facts, and they are untrue, 
and that will be expunged from this record. 

Dr. Pennes. I would like to finish my statement. 

Mr. Wood. Very well. 

Dr. Pennes. There has never to my knowledge ever been an oppor- 
tunity for an attorney to cross-examine a witness. 

Mr. Wood. In that connection, I will state to you, sir, that no com- 
mittee of the Congress has ever permitted it, this committee or any 
other committee, and anybody that knows the machinery of the Con- 
gress—your counsel knows it — it would be impossible to conduct con- 
gressional investigations if you do so, because the entire time of vour 



4120 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Congress and your committee would be taken up on lengthy cross-- 
examination. 

Dr. Pennes. This is the first time that I know of, and I would like 
to report it to you, Mr. Tavenner, and I would like to give you this 
information, that there is force and violence, and it is in this room, 
and I saw it yesterday. An attorney who asked for that permission 
was not allowed to finish his sentence, and he landed outside, and I 
think he could have had permission to finish his sentence and he would 
have walked out when requested. 

Mr. Wood. Just a moment. In that connection his request had been, 
denied 30 minutes before that, and the reasons had been given to him, 
and he knew it. Do not let anybody be kidded by his attitude here. 
He was ejected from this room because his conduct was contemptuous,, 
and it is the only recourse this committee has with reference to a 
lawyer. I am not going to permit you to go unchallenged with this 
sort of false accusations against this committee as long as I am able 
to speak. 

Dr. Pennes. I would like to summarize ; and, in conclusion, I there- 
fore invoke the first amendment that guarantees me, as all citizens, 
freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of association, and 
other freedoms which no committee or no act of Congress can nullify; 
and, therefore, any legislation which I think that this committee might 
propose would seem to me would be in conflict with the first amend- 
ment. 

Next, I invoke the privilege of the fifth amendment; and. by that, 
I make no implications, and I desire that there be no implications, and 
legally there can be no implications. 

Mr. Wood. You are arguing the question again, liow. 

Dr. Pennes. It is designed for the guilty, as well as the innocent. I 
refuse to make any testimony with regard to -the ASP, or any organ- 
ization or any periodical that you have already judged as subversive. 

I further invoke the ninth and tenth amendments ; and, for the bene- 
fit of those who don't know what it is, the ninth and tenth 

Mr. Wood. We are familiar with it, please. 

Dr. Pennes. The*question was asked several times. 

Mr. Walter. When we want. a legal opinion we will get it from a 
lawyer and not a doctor, if we need it. 

Dr. Pennes. You alw T ays asked why they invoke the amendment, 
and I will tell you. 

Mr. Wood. The fact that you invoke it is ample. 

Dr. Pennes. I would like to say why I am invoking it, just one. 
sentence. 

Mr. Wood. Doctor, let us get along with this. 

Dr. Pennes. One sentence only. All of the rights that have not 
specifically been delegated to the State or the Federal Government in 
essence are reserved to the people, You can make no laws to abridge, 
those. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now Doctor, I interrupted you in your statement 
of your scholastic preparation for your profession. 

Dr. Pennes. I would like to finish that. 

Mr. Tavenner. I want to give you the opportunity to finish. 

Dr. Pennes. Thank you very much, and I would like to finish that. 

When my services at St. Joseph Hospital were abruptly terminated 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4121 

on September 22. 1951, I limited myself to private practice in this 
city, and I have been in private practice, 

Mr. Tavenner. That is not in response to my question. That had 
nothing to do with your scholastic preparation. 

Dr. Pennes. I have one more preparation to tell you about. 

Mr. Wood. We are talking about scholastic preparation. Have you 
been to school since 1951? 

Dr. Pennes. No, but I had training. 

Mr. Wood. We are not talking about training. We are talking 
about schooling. 

Dr. Pennes. It prepared me to practice my profession. 

Mr. Wood. You give us your scholastic training, and I think that is 
an ample answer to that question, and I am getting tired. You took 
14 minutes to answer one question, and I timed you by the clock. 

Mr. Pennes. I am almost through, Mr. Wood. 

Mr. Wood. Have you got any further questions for him? 

Dr. Pennes. I have one hospital. 

Mr. Wood. Are there any further questions ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Were you a member of a medical branch of 
the Communist Party in Los Angeles which was confined in its mem- 
bership to members of the medical profession ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Pennes. Mr. Tavenner, since to my knowledge no evidence has- 
ever been presented linking me to the organization that you mentioned,. 
I nevertheless choose to decline on the basis previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, just a moment. If you need any further in- 
formation about that, before answering, Dr. Light appeared before 
this committee on January 22 and testified that you were a member of 
the medical branch. I have her transcript. 

Mr. Neusom. Could I have the book and page, counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No; it was an executive session. 

Mr. Marshall. Is there any record of the executive session ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Certainly there is. 

Mr. Marshall. May we see it, Mr. Chairman? 

Mr. Wood. When it is made public, and we expect to make it public 
immediately after these hearings are ended. 

Mr. Marshall. Is there a copy for us now? May we see it? 

Mr. Wood. You know that the testimony taken by a legislative 
committee in executive session is not open to public scrutiny, and why 
do you ask me such a question as that. 

Mr. Marshall. Because you say you are going to publish it some- 
time. 

Mr. Wood. We are, but the committee has not released it, The- 
reason for it is obvious. 

Mr. Marshall. Wliat is the reason ? 

Mr. Walter. I would like to answer Mr. Marshall's question. The- 
reason is that there are other names in the record that we could not 
confirm with members of the Communist Party, and so we are not 
going to release it until such time as those names can be deleted,, 
because we do not want to injure any innocent person.. 

Mr. Marshall. Look at the 

Mr. Wood. Let us not argue now. 

95008— 52— nt. 4 2 



4122 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Marshall. Look at the harm done in this situation. 
Dr. Pennes. Why didn't you release it then? 

Mr. Wood. We are giving you an opportunity to tell us now whether 
or not it is true. 

Dr. Pennes. I wanted that opportunity a year ago, if you had that 

information. 

Mr. Wood. That information was taken in public. 

Dr. Pennes. Executive sessions; are those public? 

Mr. Wood. No, sir. The information that has been read to you by 
counsel here was public information. 

Dr. Pennes. It is 1 year later. 

Mr. Wood. I am not arguing with you. You are being given an 
opportunity to answer the questions in the same forum of the people 
who testified. 

Dr. Pennes. Will you repeat the question? 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the medical branch of the 
Communist Party in Los Angeles? 

Dr. Pennes. Mr. Tavenner, in addition to the points previously 
stated as to why I refuse to answer questions such as that, I further 
refuse to answer this question on one additional point: That this 
committee has demonstrated to me and to the American people, by 
keeping such testimony, sitting on this testimony for 1 year while a 
man like myself, who took all of my life \o build a professional prac- 
tice, lost a very important hospital position, and you fellows sat on 
that for 1 year'and now you ask me about it. I can't imagine anything 
of any greater duplicity, and I don't know how you can look me in 
the face and ask me a question. 

Mr. Wood. Do you want to deny it ? 

( The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Pennes. With respect to that question and similar questions, 
I have already made my position very clear. 

Mr. Wood. That is what I thought. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Pennes. This is the same general question, and I therefore 
invoke all of the reasons previously stated, and one additionai"reason. 

Mr. Wood. Have you any further questions ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 

Party? 

Dr. Pennes. That is essentially the same question asked in a little 
different way, and you do that repeatedly, thinking possibly that 
someone might answer it and then be led to a series of answers. 

Mr. Wood. How do you answer it ? 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your answer? 

Dr. Pennes. For the reasons that I have stated and quite fully, I 
refuse to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Walter. Doctor, you have testified that on a Saturday some- 
body connected with St, Joseph Hospital called you and told you that 
you* were no longer connected with that institution, is that correct \ 

I )r. Pennes. Not exactly, Mr. Walter. The Sister Superior who was 
the superintendent of St. Joseph Hospital called me Saturday morning 
at 10 o'clock, and this thing made the morning paper, and the testimony 
was given Friday afternoon, and it made the morning paper on 
Saturday, and it was iust as stated : That there had been such— the 



COMMUNISM IN LOS A.\ T GELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4123 

question was whether there had been an ASP meeting at my house, 
and she called me on the phone and said, "Doctor, in view of the 
unfavorable publicity that you have had, and that has made the press, 
and even though I hate to tell you this, you have been an excellent and 
outstanding radiologist for 7y 2 years, I think it would be much better 
to all concerned if you would please step aside and resign." 

Mr. Walter, Is it not a fact that the Sister called you and asked 
you whether or not there had been such a meeting as reported in the 
press, and you then told her that you did not care to discuss that 
matter with her; that it was a matter of your own personal business? 
Is that not what the conversation was ? 

Dr. Pennes. That was not the conversation. 

Mr. Walter. And then, after the Sister said that to you and you 
made the response that you did, she said, "Well, if that is your atti- 
tude, then we don't want you to be connected with this institution any 
longer." Now, is that not exactly what happened ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Pennes. Mr. Walter, I would like to answer that. 

Mr. Walter. You can answer it "Yes" or "No." 

Dr. Pennes. I will tell you what happened. 

Mr. Wood. Just answer whether that happened. 

Dr. Pennes. That is not what happened, and what happened was 
that, she said 

Mr. Walter. You have already told us, and I am asking you, and 
you said, "No ; that did not happen." 

Dr. Pennes. That is not what happened. 

Mr. Walter. All right. 

Mr. Doyle. Doctor, the fact that the Associated Press carried the 
word that your name or your home had been mentioned in the press 
of course showed it was a public meeting, and that the American public 
had the information that it was an open meeting, and that your home 
was mentioned in a public session. It is well known, as our distin- 
guished chairman has said for 4 years, ever since he has been chairman, 
there has been a standing offer through radio, through paid publica- 
tions and their advertisements, and through newspaper releases, in- 
viting any person who desired to get any word to this committee to 
either send it to us by telegraph or by letter or by personal call. We 
have had many people whose names were mentioned, or who were 
implicated in any such hearing, telegraph us and write us or ask for 
a chance to deny the statement, or correct the testimony. 

Now, I want to ask you if you made any endeavor or if any attorney 
or any representative for you made any endeavor to contact this com- 
mittee after this newspaper release? Did you make any effort or 
have anyone make an effort for you? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Pennes. Mr. Doyle, for me to seek out this committee after a 
deliberate mention on the part of your counsel, Mr. Tavenner, to the 
extent that he even spelled my name out, would give to this committee 
the status which I sincerely believe it is not entitled to. I am not a 
friend of this committee because this committee I consider is an enemy 
of the United States. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, Doctor, of course you apparently held that opin- 
ion before your name was mentioned in the release a year ago, and 



4124 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

that is a satisfactory explanation to me as to why yon did not make 
any endeavor to correct the testimony or to deny the truth of it. 

Dr. Pennes. It was obvious from my previous testimony. 

Mr. Doyle. You were an enemy of this committee at that time, I 
take, it from your answer. 

Dr. Pennes. I have been an enemy since I have been a child. 

Mr. Doyle. I know you have. I can see that. 

Dr. Pennes. This committee stands for American tyranny. 

Mr. Doyle. I can see you have been an enemy of what this Con- 
gress is trying to do. 

Dr. Pennes. Not Congress, this committee. I uphold the Constitu- 
tion, and you want to destroy it. You want to destroy the American 
Constitution, and I am here to defend it, and I am a physician, and I 
am not a lawyer, and I am a good American citizen, and I can prove 
it, and you are trying to rip down the Constitution. 

Mr. Wood. Just a moment. Will you please run down for a minute,, 
just for one second. We are giving you the best opportunity on this 
earth to prove it. 

Dr. Pennes. Thank yon. 

Mr. Wood. You can prove it right now. 

Dr. Pennes. Prove what? 

Mr. Wood. That you are a good, loyal, American citizen. 

Dr. Pennes. My answers prove it and I will let the American people- 
judge. One hundred years from now they will be reading this testi- 
mony, and this committee will go down in infamy in American 
history. 

Mr. Doyle. I understand now, Doctor, you have stated that you 
have been an enemy of this committee ever since you were a child, and 
I understand therefore your reasons today. 

Now, in view of the fact that you said I was a superpatriot, may I 
just say to you that I have never claimed any such thing, and I am 
just an ordinary American citizen who happens to be trying to serve 
his country in Congress, and also I am very proud of the fact that I 
gave my son's life to defend this Nation's security. 

Now, may I just ask you one question more, Doctor, if you can clear 
your mind of your hatred and animosity toward this committee, that 
you have had since you were a child, may I just ask you this one 
question, and in asking this, I am trying to be constructive, and I 
wrote down your language. It is so I would try to be constructive 
regardless of what you might think. 

You said this: "There are lots of ways you can get information if 
yon want it without the way this committee works." 

Now, you remember saying substantially that? 

Dr. Pennes. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Your answer is "Yes"? 

Dr. Pennes. Yes. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, the information we are seeking, as you know, is 
what manner and to what extent the Communist Party in America is 
functioning at this time, and we had thought that the only way to 
get that, or the best way to get that, would be to ask members of the 
Communist Party. 

Now, is there some better way? We are challenged under Public 
Law 601 to look into the propaganda of those persons who in the 
judgment of Congress represented by this committee were carrying 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4125 

on subversive propaganda and activities. Now, we are here in that 
capacity, whether you believe it or not. I certainly am here in that 
capacity, and no other greater or lesser capacity, in my own personal 
capacity on the committee and a Member of Congress. 

You have volunteered that there are lots of ways we can get that 
information, which the United States Congress has asked us to get. 
How shall we get it, other than from citizens whom we have informa- 
tion are members of the Communist Party ? How shall we get it ? 

Dr. Pennes. I would like to answer that question. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, I am trying to be constructive. 

Dr. Pennes. And I will be constructvie, too. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. 

Dr. Pennes. When I received my subpena which was delivered to 
me by Mr. McKillips, Mr. McKillips put his phone number on the 
back of that subpena, and he said to me, "If you have any information 
to give, please call this number," and I personally considered it, I was 
shocked that he should say so naturally, but if I had any information 
to give Mr. McKillips, I would have called Mr. McKillips and given 
that information. But when you take reputable citizens and drag 
them up here against their will, expose them to public censure, and 
pillory them, when you know they are not going to say anything, and 
you are not interested in their testimony, you are interested in making 
them unemployable and blacklisting them. 

Mr. Doyle. Please, now, listen 

Dr. Pennes. Why do you want to expose them and hurt them? 

Mr. Doyle. Listen, I tried to be constructive, and I asked you a 
constructive question. 

Dr. Pennes. I am trying to answer it constructively, and I feel very 
emotional about this. 

Mr. Doyle. Please do not spill over your hate of this committee, 
and I am asking you to be fair and constructive. 

Dr. Pennes. You can't force information out of people that don't 
want to give it. That is my fundamental point. 

Mr. Doyle. But, Doctor, you see in many, many cases as a result of 
these subpenaes, and the voluntary offer of Mr. McKillips to you, "If 
you have any information, call this number," that was a good faith 
offer by the representative of our committee that if you had any 
information to give it to us, and you did not have to come here in this 
public session this way. We gave you an opportunity to cooperate in 
accordance with Public Law 601. Now, that is one way. 

Dr. Pennes. Can I answer that? Can I have 30 seconds? 

Mr. Doyle. It is — I withdraw that. 

Dr. Pennes. Just one sentence, and I won't yell. 

Mr. Wood. Just a moment. He is talking now. Your proposal 
not to yell is very gratifying to the committee. 

Mr. Doyle. Let us be constructive again, and you have given me 
one answer. You said there are lots of ways and now give me another 
suggestion, will you ? 

Dr. Pennes. I will give you the other suggestion. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, the way we can get information. 

Dr. Pennes. I will give you the other suggestion. 

Mr. Doyle. The way we can get information as to what the Com- 
munist Party is doing. 



4126 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Dr. Pennes. The first thing that has to be decided, Mr. Doyle, is 
that you cannot force people to testify unless you degrade them, and 
you force them into doing things which they honestly don't want to 
do. It is not fair to make a man come up here and testify because his 
wife might lose her job, and that is pressure, and if I were to coop- 
erate, I would not stand up here and destroy 40 families so that the 
man can't earn a living. 

Mr. Doyle. Listen, now. That is argumentative again, and I have 
asked you in good faith to tell the committee in public session, you 
volunteered the statement, and you have admitted that you said it, 
and you verified my language, there are lots of ways you can get the 
information. Now, tell me a way we can get it. 

Dr. Pennes. You call me and you say, "Dr. Pennes, do you have 
any information that would be of any use to this committee?" 

Mr. Wood. That is what we are doing now. 

Dr. Pennes. You say that privately to me, and I say to you, "Mr. 
Doyle, I am not interested in cooperating, with this committee pri- 
vately." I say that to you privately and I invoke my privileges 
under the Constitution, and then you should let me alone and not drag 
me up here to public view and ridicule. I am an American citizen 
and I stand on my rights, and you can't force me to testify against 
my will. That is what you are trying to do. 

Mr. Wood. No, we do not tell any person to testify against their 
conscientious declaration of right. 

Dr. Pennes. Why do they lose their jobs? Answer that question. 

Mr. Doyle. Let me say this to you. We are interested in getting 
information for remedial legislation, and the last section of Public 
Law G01 contains a clause which charges us with getting information 
on all questions with relation to the subject of subversive and un- 
American propaganda and report that to Congress. 

Now, you in your criticism of this committee, and I want to be 
perfectly fair in this statement and renew my offer to you, and I will 
renew this offer to the whole public, I am sure the committee would 
back me in it, you have volunteered the statement that there are lots of 
ways in which we can get the information the United States Congress 
has put upon our shoulders to get. 

Now, tell me one. You said that there are lots of ways. 

Dr. Pennes. I will tell you. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Wood. Will you have the witness answer the question or make 
the request, pleased Counsel may not interfere with the hearings. 

Dr. Pennes. I will answer that question. 

Mr. Doyle. All right. 

Dr. Pennes. If you think I don't question Public Law 601, if it is 
truly interpreted, that is in its true sense, and you are seeking for 
information. If you are seeking for information, you look for it 
where you think that you can find it. 

Mr. Doyle. That is right. 

Dr. Pennes. But you do not take the tack of forcing people to 
give it. You can write them a letter and say, "You are invited to come 
down on such-and-such a place, and this is a highly confidential com- 
munication." You say to a person, "We have reason to believe you 
may have information. Would you please come down and talk to 
us? If you don't come down, we will understand by that that you 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4127 

are not willing to cooperate." But you don't. You issue a subpena, 
put their name all over the newspaper, and makes them lose their 
jobs, and have them come in here and say, "Now, look, you give us 
this information, and you don't have to, but if you don't give it you are 
not going to work tomorrow." 

Mr. Doyle. Then your point is this: You are suggesting, reduced 
to an analysis, that we should invite those people whom we have rea- 
son to believe are members of the Communist Party to come and tell 
us what they know, and if they refuse, then forget it. Now, that is 
what you are telling me. 

Dr. Pennes. What else can you do ? 

Mr. Doyle. Under the last section of this Public Law 601, it says: 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities or any subcommittee thereof is authorized to hold hearings, to require 
the attendance of witnesses, and the production of such books, papers, and docu- 
ments and to take such testimony, subpenas may be issued under the signature of 
the chairman or by members designated by any such chairman, subchairman, and 
may be served by any person designated. 

Now, have vou any other way that we can get the information ? You 
have given us one suggestion, voluntary cooperation by people known 
by us or believed by us to be Communists, and now that is one way 
and what other way ? 

Dr. Pennes. Well, first of all, the wording there is "may be issued,'' 
and they don't have to be issued. 

Mr. Doyle. May I ask one question once more, Mr. Chairman ? 

Mr. Wood. I am not going to let that statement go unchallenged. I 
know nothing about his economic conditions but if what he says here 
is true, it is not this committee that has cut his income off; it is him. 
We are giving you an opportunity now to restore it, if indeed you 
have lost it, by simply telling us the truth. 

Dr. Pennes. Bv becoming an informer. 

Mr. Wood. Well, if you want to put it that way, yes. 

Dr. Pennes. I would not become an informer if you cut off the 
other two-thirds of my income, or all of it. 

Mr. Wood. If you want to say that telling the truth is being an in- 
former, I will let you put it that way. 

Dr. Pennes. I am against informers, and I am a Jew and the Jewish 
people are traditionally against informers. They isolate them and 
they don't even associate with them and they don't talk to them in 
the street, and when they die they don't even bury them in the same 
cemetery. Do you know what we think about informers? They are 
not fit to associate with human beings. They destroy the life of the 
husband and the wife and the children. 

Mr. Wood. I thought you were not going to yell any more. 

Dr. Pennes. I saw blood on this table yesterday. Forty families 
were destroyed yesterday, Mr. Wood. Do you realize what that 
means? Those men are not working now. How are they going to 
feed their children, and that bothers me, and I will take care of my- 
self, and I am worried about those other people. 

Mr. Wood. It does not bother me nearly as much as the thousands 
.and hundreds of thousands of good loyal citizens that are languish- 
ing in concentration camps maintained by the very ideology that you 
are here representing. 

Dr. Pennes. Are you accusing me, Mr. Wood ? 



412S COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Wood. I am accusing you of being a Communist. Is that true 
or not ? 

Dr. Pennes. This is not a legislative fact-finding committee. You 
are accusing, and you convict, and you punish. 

Mr. Woods. Is that true or not ? 

Dr. Pennes. I made my answers very clear before, and you have 
made your position very obvious, too, to the American people, and I 
iisk that no photographs be taken during my testimony, and I meant it. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, Doctor, listen, please. 

Dr. Pennes. I wish that you were blacklisted. 

Mr. Marshall. I ask that the man with the cigar, the spectator, be 
removed, and the faces he is making at this witness are obvious. 

Dr. Pennes. I appreciate your questions and I appreciate your sin- 
cerity, and I would like to add that I really sympathize with you about 
the loss of your son. 

Mr. Doyle. No doubt. 

Dr. Pennes. But the only thing I can say, if you really feel the way 
you mean, I would suggest that you resign from this committee. 

Mr. Doyle. Doctor, may I suggest this in good faith ? 

Mr. Wood. Do you know anybody in the audience that started that 
demonstration. If you do, get them out of here. 

Mr. Doyle. May I say this, and then I will not take any of your 
time or strength, and I say it with utmost frankness. Without criti- 
cizing you, may I say or just give you this suggestion. You have made 
a suggestion to me, as an American citizen, and now I am making a 
suggestion to you as an American citizen, and having the heritage of 
a great race in your blood. If you are a Communist — and now wait a 
minute, I did not interrupt you, and I am not going to argue with 
you — but if you are a Communist, for God's sake get out of it. Now, 
that is all. 

Mr. Wood. Doctor, are you a member of the California Medical As- 
sociation ? 

Dr. Pennes. I would like this opportunity to tell what membership 
I have. 

Mr. Wood. I just want you to answer the question. 

Dr. Pennes. I am a member of the Los Angeles County Medical 
Society, the California Medical Association. 

Mr. Wood. That is all I asked you. 

Dr. Pennes. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Wood. You are a member of the California Medical Association. 

Dr. Pennes. I am. 

Mr. Wood. According to the newspaper releases 

Dr. Pennes. Is this for my benefit? I read it this morning in the 
paper. 

Mr. Wood. I just want to ask you if you subscribe to it. 

Dr. Pennes. Mr. Allison, who wrote that, I didn't vote for Mr. 
Allison. 

Mr. Wood. Do you subscribe to the statements set forth here? 

Mr. Pe*nnes. I don't agree with the position because the Cali- 
fornia 

Mr. Wood. You are excused from further attendance on the com- 
mittee. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Joseph Hittelman. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4129 

Mr. Wood. Will you raise your right baud and be sworn, please. 
You solemnly swear that tbe evidence you sball give this subcom- 
mittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God ? 

Dr. Hittelman. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF DR. JOSEPH HITTELMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 
COUNSEL, DANIEL G. MARSHALL, THOMAS G. NETJSON, AND 
ROBERT W. KENNY 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir? 

Dr. Hittelman. Joseph H-i-t-t-e-1-m-a-n. Please get the spelling 
correct. It is of some importance. 

Mr. Tavenner. May the record show that the witness is represented 
by the same counsel. 

Mr. Kenny. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you also used the name Jack Martin? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Hittelman. I don't understand the question, but I guess I had 
better refuse to answer. In what connection? I don't know what 
you are talking about. 

Mr. Tavenner. In any connection. 

Dr. Hittelman. A different name? 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you in the past used the name Jack Martin \ 

Dr. Hittelman. I don't know. When I was a kid I was called 
Four Eyes, and I have been called Doc, and I probably have been 
called God and the devil both by my patients, but I don't know. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Wood. Was your question addressed to what he was called or 
what he used? 

Mr. Tavenner. Or what he had used. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Hittelman. Can't you be more specific? In what connection, 
when or where, as an actor in a play possibly, or in an amateur per- 
formance in high school, and I don't know. 

Mr. Tavenner. If you used that name in such a play, why, maybe 
you would remember it. 

Dr. Hittelman. I am 42 years old, and that is a long time. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you used it in the Communist Party? 

Dr. 'Hittelman. Have I what? 

Mr. Tavenner. The name Jack Martin. 

Dr. Hittelman. In the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. 

Dr. Hittelman. I refuse to answer that question and I would like 
to state my reasons, if I may. To answer that question either way, 
it seems to me, is like asking me when did I stop beating my wife and 
if I answer I haven't, it means I am still beating her. 

Mr. Wood. You were not asked if you stopped being a member of 
the Communist Party. You were asked if you used that name. 

Dr. Hittelman. I have heard it asked in different ways, have you 
stopped beating your wife, do you beat your wife, and both ways 
anyway you answer it, it seems to me that it does not come out right 
anyway. At any rate, I think that that question is an invasion of 
m}* rights to think as I please, to talk as I please, and as a matter of 



4130 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

fact, I think it goes further than that, I think it invades my province 
as a physician. I have been advertised and billed, I have gotten top 
billing in coming here today as a physician, and not as an ordinary 
American citizen calls, the advertising has all been physicians, and 
so I am here as a physician. I think that invades and violates certain 
of my rights. I think it violates the relationship between patient and 
physician. It may look farfetched to you, and you may say; "Well, 
how can it, how can it invade the relationship between patient and 
physician," and well, things don't just happen like that. It does not 
happen like 1 minute there is an attorney standing here objecting, 
and the next minute he is out in the hall. 

Mr. Wood. You are getting a little bit argumentative there, Doctor. 

Dr. Hittelman. I am trying to explain how this question is an 
invasion. 

Mr. Wood. You have said in your opinion it was, and that ought to 
be enough. 

Dr. Hittelman. It destroys the confidence between patient and 
physician. It puts me in a position, if I talk, if I say anything about 
my personal beliefs, and if I tattle about myself I am certainly not 
going to hide any information about my patients' ills. 

Mr. Wood. Please give your reasons and not arguments. 

Dr. Hittelman. My reasons, firstly, is that it is an invasion of the 
relationship between patients and physician, and secondly it is an 
infringement on my duties as a physician, and toward the community, 
and I have a responsibility toward the community. If I cannot speak 
up frankly and if I cannot keep quiet when I want, then I no longer 
have freedom. I cannot criticize the American Medical Association 
for being a political arm of the Republican Party, for example. 

Mr. Wood. Well, you are arguing now. 

Dr. Hittelman. I am giving you an example of the way 

Mr. Wood. Just give reasons and leave off the examples, please, sir, 
and let us get along. 

Dr. Hittelman. Some of these may seem farfetched to you. It. 
destroys my right and my duty toward my community as a physician. 
It also affects me in other ways, in the professional relationship. I 
have a social obligation to the community and to carry that out 
I must be free to express myself and free to criticize and I must be 
free to speak as I will, and I will not give up that right to this thought- 
control committee. 

Mr. Wood. That is argumentative. 

Dr. Hittelman. Very well. May I go on, then ? 

Mr. Wood. You may. 

Dr. Hittelman. My second reason is that I feel this is in general 
an abridgement of my rights under the first amendment to the Con- 
stitution of the United States, because it invades a province of my 
own personal privacy. Wlien I first went into medical school, the 
first day, I was presented with a box of bones and a skull and lo and 
behold, the skull had a hinge on top, and I could unhinge it and look 
inside. My skull does not have a hinge on top, and nobody is going 
to look inside my skull. 

Mr. Wood. Now, Doctor, you are arguing now, and state your 
reasons and let us get along. 

Dr. Hittelman. I am trying to state my reasons under the first 
amendment to the Constitution. Furthermore, if I am not allowed 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4131 

the right to speak and think as I please, I may have to still go back 
to treating malignant diseases with aspirins and I don't think it is 
right. 

Mr. Wood. Yon know that is purely argumentative. 

Dr. HrrTELMAN. It may be argumentative today, but a year from 
now it may not be argumentative. It may be a fact. So under the 
first amendment to the Constitution, trying to destroy my right to 
think 

Mr. Wood. We know what the first amendment is, and now let us 
get along. 

Dr. Hittelman. We will go on to the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Wood. Do you claim the privileges under the fifth amendment ? 

Dr. Hittelman. I haven't yet. 

Mr. Wood. Are you going to ? We know what it is. 

Dr. Hittelman. Won't you let me do it if I want to ? 

Mr. Wood. That is what I am asking you. 

Dr. Hittelman. I still don't want to be put in the position of the 
wife-beating question, and let me answer it in my own way, please. 
I take my stand on the fifth amendment, that I do not have to answer 
these questions because they are an infringement of my rights under 
that amendment. In addition, I also add that I refuse to answer 
that question on the grounds of the ninth and tenth amendments and 
I think we know now exactly what the ninth and tenth amendments 
are also. Those are the reasons why I refuse to answer any such 
•questions before this thought-control committee. 

Mr. Tavenner. I think the record should show that the witness is 
represented by the same counsel. 

Mr. Wood. It does. They are in the record. 

Mr. Tavenner. Doctor, when and where were you born ? 

Dr. Hittelman. I was born in the home of the Eastman Kodak Co., 
which seems to be making quite a harvest out of the film being thrown 
around here. I mean Rochester, N. Y. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you think that that is material to the question? 
Please confine yourself 

Dr. Hittelman. I believe it gets a point over which should be 
gotten over. 

Mr. Tavenner. Please confine yourself to answering of my 
questions. 

Dr. Hittelman. I have waited a long time to answer these questions. 

Mr. Tavenner. "What was the date of your birth ? 

Dr. Hittelman. Of my what? 

Mr. Tavenner. The date of your birth. 

Dr. Hittelman. December 25, 1910. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a resident of Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Hittelman. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a resident ? 

Dr. Hittelman. I came to Los Angeles in 1920, that is 32 years, with 
a little 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been practicing in Los Angeles since that 
time ? 

Dr. Hittelman. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time have you practiced in Los 
Angeles ? 



4132 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Dr. Hittelman. I didn't start to practice until I got out of medical 
school. 

Mr. Tavenner. I assumed that. When was that? 

Dr. Hittelman. I don't like the assumption. I think I have a 
right, like everybody else. 

Mr. Tavenner. I say when did you begin the practice of medicine 
in Los Angeles? 

Dr. Hittelman. In 1937. 

Mr. Tavenner. What has been your scholastic training for the prac- 
tice of your profession? 

Dr. Hittelman. Well, I went through the public schools in Los 
Angeles, and then I went to a great and wonderful university which 
only recently has been subjected to a terrible decisive action endan- 
gered by the atmosphere created by this committee, and I refer spe- 
cifically to the University of California. n 

Mr. Tavenner. Now, that is not in answer to my question, and 
would you please confine yourself? 

Dr. Hittelman. The name of the university is the University of 
California at Los Angeles, where I received my premedical training, 
and the University of California at Berkeley, where I received my 
B. A. degree, and the University of California Medical School in 
Berkeley and San Francisco, where I received my M. D. degree, and 
a great university which I trust will never become a pygmy institution. 

Mr. Wood. We did not ask you about your desires. We want to 
know where you went to school. 

Dr. Hittelman. That is where I went to school, and that is not the 
sum total, however, of my medical training. 

Mr. Tavenner. I think that identifies you as a member of the pro- 
fession and as having substantial preparation for it. 

Dr. Hittelman. I have had a lot more preparation than that; and 
if the committee is interested, I would be glad to give you that infor- 
mation. 

Mr. Tavenner. I think your statement is adequate. It is for my 
purposes. 

During the course of the hearings by this committee, testimony has 
been received from Dr. Light that you were also a member of a medi- 
cal branch of the Communist Party in Los Angeles of which she was 
also a member and which was confined to membership to members of 
the medical profession. I would like for you to state whether or not 
you were a member of that group ; and if so, then I desire to ask you 
what you know of its formation and its purposes and its activities. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Hittelman. Well, this alleged witness or stoolpigeon has been 
mentioned here before, and I refuse to answer any questions in con- 
nection with that testimony on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Hittelman. I forget how many ways I outlined of asking the 
wife-beating question, and are you going through those ways? 

Mr. Woon. He has asked you a question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Just answer the question. 

Dr. Hittelman. May I ask counsel, is that a different question, 
Counsel ? 

Mr. Kenny. I think you had better give the same grounds for 
refusing. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4133 

Dr. Hittleman. I refuse to answer that question on the same 
grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Dr. Hittelman. That again appears to me 

Mr. Kenny. There is a microscopic difference. 

Dr. Hittelman. The counsel which you have so much flattered here 
today advises me that this is also a different question, and so I will 
give the same answer for the same reason. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. 

Mr. Jackson. I have no questions. 

Mr. Wood. Is there any reason why the witness should not be 
excused ? 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Wood. The committee will stand in recess for 15 minutes. 

(A short recess was taken.) 

Mr. Wood. The subcommittee will be in order. 

(Those present following the short recess: Representatives John S. 
Wood. Francis E. Walter, Clyde Doyle, Harold H. Velde, and Donald 
L. Jackson.) 

Mr. Wood. Who will you call next, Mr. Counsel? 

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Simson Marcus. 

Mr. Wood. Will you raise your fight hand. You solemnly swear the 
evidence you shall give this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Dr. Marcus. I do. May I ask no pictures be taken while I give my 
testimony? 

Mr. Wood. That will be done. 

TESTIMONY OF DR. SIMSON MARCUS, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 
COUNSEL, DANIEL G. MARSHALL, ROBERT W. KENNY, AND 
THOMAS G. NEUSOM 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir. 

Dr. Marcus. Simson Marcus, M. D. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your name? 

Dr. Marcus. S-i-m-s-o-n M-a-r-c-u-s, M. D. 

Mr. Tavenner. I believe you are represented by the same counsel 
as the preceding witness. May the record so show. 

Dr. Marcus. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Doctor? 

Dr. Marcus. I was born in the city of Oakland, Calif., August 
1, 1909. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Los Angeles? 

Dr. Marcus. I have resided in Los Angeles all of my life since about 
the age of 6 months, except for the time I was in military service. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long were you in military service? 

Dr. Marcus. From October 1942 to May of 1940. Part of that time, 
2 years and a little more, I was overseas in the Pacific theater. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession? 

Dr. Marcus. I am a physician surgeon. I am a general prac- 
titioner. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you practiced in Los Angeles? 



4134 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Dr. Marcus. I graduated from medical school in 1934, practiced in 
San Francisco County for about a year, and then since that time I have 
practiced in the city of Los Angeles with the exception of the time I 
was in service. 

Mr. Tavenner. What has been your scholastic training for your 
profession 2 

Dr. Marcus. I took my schooling in the city of Santa Monica,. 
Calif., which I believe is part of Los Angeles County, and I went to 
the University of California at Los Angeles, and the University of 
California, and the University of California Medical School, where 
at no time was I ever taught that there was any relationship between 
a physician and his political opinions or associations. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, Doctor, regardless of what you may have 
been taught on that subject, do you know whether or not there exists 
in Los Angeles a Communist Party cell the membership of which is 
confined solely to members of the medical profession '. 

Dr. Marcus. The organization to which you refer is one of several 
hundred organizations which are listed as subversive. 1 believe they 
were listed so by a former Attorney General, a Mr. McGrath, who 
today is thoroughly discredited, dismissed from his job, ruled incom- 
petent, and now stands under suspicion himself of having performed 
acts while in office 

Mr. Tavenner. Your answer is not responsive to my question. 

Dr. Marcus. I will answer that question. I just wanted to bring 
the background of where this came from. 

Mr. Wood. Please do. 

Dr. Marcus. I wanted to give the committee the background of 
the list that it is using. 

Mr. Wood. We are interested in the facts. 

Mr. Tavenner. You are even mistaken as to the name of the 
Attorney General of the United States. It was Mr. Biddle, wasn't it ? 

Dr. Marcus. I am not an attorney. One of my attorney colleagues,, 
friends, I will say, gave me that information. At any rate, there are 
attorney generals, too, that make mistakes, as we now see. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you of the opinion that it was a mistake to 
judge the Communist Party subversive? 

Dr. Marcus. I have said that that organization is on that list, and 
because it is on that list and this committee 



Mr. Tavenner. That is not an answer to my question. 

Dr. Marcus. I shall refuse to answer any questions concerning 
organizations on that list for the following reasons. I am going to 
give you the reasons which you have heard here many times before 
this week, which I have heard expounded by very able colleagues of 
mine and very able members of the bar. 

Mr. Wood. Doctor, will you please make your answers conform to 
the facts and not arguments? 

Dr. Marcus. I do not believe, as has been stated here many times 
before, that this committee has a right to pry either into my beliefs, 
whether on political or other questions, or my associations, whether 
medical or political, and I therefore, on the basis of the first amend- 
ment, will not answer that or similar questions. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4135 

No. 2: I am going to exercise my privilege under the Constitution, 
under the Bill of Rights, a Bill of Rights which, as pointed out before 
several times, was derived from a struggle which started in England.. 

Mr. Wood. Please spare us a dissertation on that. We are familiar 

with it. 

Mr. Walter. We probably know more about it than you do. 

Dr. Marcus. I hope you do, but I wish I could see more evidence 
of it. However, I will say briefly that I am exercising my privilege 
under the Fifth Amendment, not to answer that question or any 
question pertaining to organizations or individuals acceptable to this 
committee. 

Mr. Doyle. Do you not exercise your rights under the first amend- 
ment, too? 

Dr. Marcus. I have already done so, and the ninth and tenth. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I suggest, Mr. Chairman, if those are the 
only grounds upon which he relies, he be directed to answer the- 
question. 

Dr. Marcus. I said the fifth amendment. I was very clear, I hope,, 
in saying the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. If he is relying on the fifth amendment, I withdraw 
my request. 

Were you a member of the medical branch of the Communist Party 
in Los Angeles? 

Dr. Marcus. I shall again refuse to answer that question and 
I will specifically state the fifth amendment first. 

Mr. Wood. There is no need to state them again, if they are the 
same grounds. 

Dr. Marcus. I am not a lawyer. I believe that it serves my in- 
terests best to make it clear that I want the fifth amendment to be on 
record as I say before, and it is one of the most valuable amendments 
in the constitutional amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Dr. Marcus. I will give you the same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. On the same grounds ? 

Dr. Marcus. On the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 

Party? 

Dr. Marcus. Again the same answer, and on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Wood. Mr. Walter, do you have any questions ? 

Mr. Walter. I have no questions. 

Mr. Wood. Doctor, are you a member of the California Medical 
Association? 

Dr. Marcus. I am, although I disagree with many of its policies. 

Mr. Wood. In the time you took membership in that organization, 
have you ever held an official position in the organization? 

Dr. Marcus. I happen to be a very strong advocate of a Federal 
health-insurance program, and for that reason alone it is inconceiv- 
able that I would ever be elected under the present administration of 
that organization. 

Mr. Wood. I did not ask you that. I asked you if you held an of- 
ficial position in the organization. 



4136 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Dr. Marcus. I am explaining why. 

Mr. Wood. I did not ask yon why. I asked yon if you were. 

Dr. Marcus. The answer is "No." 

Mr. Wood. All right. Did you read this statement that was 
released in the Los Angeles Times on yesterday by Dr. L. A. Alesen, 
the association president of that association? 

Dr. Marcus. I would like to answer that question. 

Mr. Wood. I am just asking you if you read it. 

Dr. Marcus. I have to preface my remarks, and I don't want to 
appear as illiterate. I am a person who reads the papers. With all 
respect to the members of the press here assembled who I am sure 
did what they considered a fair job, when their stories got back to the 
city editor's desk, they so garbled the reports of what happened in 
this room that I just took the rest of the papers and threw them 
where they belonged, in the incinerator, and I have not read any state- 
ment from the Medical Association. 

Mr. Wood. Your evidence is that you did not read it, is that right ? 

Dr. Marcus. Correct. 

Mi*. Wood. Well, I want to read it now, for the purpose of not only 
making you acquainted with its terms, but also for the benefit of the 
record. 

Dr. Marcus. I read a similar statement last time this committee met, 
and if you want to save yourself the time just spare me. I can imagine 
just what it says. It is wholly in support of the committee. 

Mr. Wood. Just let it speak for itself. 

Dr. Marcus. Isn't it already in the record ? 

Mr. Wood. No, sir. 

Dr. Marcus. Put it in. Go ahead. 

Mr. Wood, (reading): 

Physicians who refuse to co-operate with the House Un-American Activities 
Committee do so as individuals and do not represent the "overwhelming ma- 
jority" of doctors in the State, the California Medical Association pointed out 
today. 

"It has lon.s been the policy of the California Medical Association's officers 
and employees to take an oath of allegiance and to state in writing that Ibey 
have not been associated with any subversive group at any time," said Dr 
L. A. Alesen, association president. 

"Since this is our accepted policy, we are in hearty accord with the objectives 
oi the duly constituted and authorized congressional committee in seeking out 
and exposing those who, by any means, would give aid and comfort to enemies 
of America." 

Dr. Marcus. May I take a minute of your time ? 

Mr. Wood. I just want to ask one question based on that statement. 
Do you find yourself in accord with the sentiments expressed in that 
statement? 

( The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Marcus. It is my right and the right of every American to 
state his opinions when and where he chooses. This is one time when 
I will be very happy to express my opinion before this committee. 

Mr. Wood. Confining it, of course, to the question. 

Dr. Marcus. Confining it to the question. There is reference to 
this question, to a loyalty oath. When I went into the service of the 
United States Government during my military career, I took an oath 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4137 

at that time to uphold and defend the Constitution, and I don't re- 
member all of the things. At that time it was not necessary for me, 
and I was being called on then to possibly give my life, as I saw many 
other men give their lives in the Pacific, and don't kid yourself, you 
talk about atom bombs and so forth, it is hell, it is not a joke. It is not 
a joke, it is not a game like they are playing with civil defense today. 
At any rate I was called on to take that oath, and I took it gladly 
because I have always defended and supported the Constitution and 
always will. I am going to use a word you can strike from the record, 
but I will be — if I will ever take an oath which asks me to what 
organizations I belong or will belong, because that, too, is part of the 
privilege of being an American. Will you read that last part? Oh, 
yes, I remember now. There was a reference to the committee. 

I don't want to be repetitious, a lot of men have preceded me that 
have given very able opinions of theirs regarding this committee. One 
man went so far as to wish that Mr. Doyle would resign from this 
committee. I feel too that he should. I have seen members of this 
committee walk out on him when he starts to ask questions and not 
come back. So evidently not everybody has the same regard for mem- 
bers of this committee as they have for themselves. 

Mr. Wood. I did not ask you to deflect on the committee. I just 
asked you if you had read this statement. 

Dr. Marcus. Let the record of Dr. Pennes, and every attorney who 
stood here and every one of my colleagues that attacked this com- 
mittee not as men, not as Americans, but for the committee — perhaps 
they do wonderful work in Congress, and maybe they have wonderful 
records in Congress, I know that some of the men don't have such 
wonderful records. But let us assume that they do. They are wonder- 
ful persons, and yet the existence of this committee, I think one of the 
members of this committee expressed as an aside to himself, probably, 
he should have had his head examined before he served on this com- 
mittee — the very 

Mr. Wood. Do not speculate. 

Dr. Marcus. I overheard it. I am not speculating. I don't want 
to go into too much detail. 

Mr. Wood. Answer the question. Do you agree with the sentiments 
expressed here ? 

Dr. Marcus. I think I can say "No," because the two parts of it to 
which it refers I have discussed. 

Mr. Wood. That is all so far as I am concerned. Any reason why 
the witness should not be excused from further attendance on the 
committee ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. I have another question to ask him. 

Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Marcus. Well, of course I haven't 

Mr. Tavenner. It has been so long that I did not know. 

Dr. Marcus. I was not aware that I was taking so much of your 
valuable time. 

Mr. Wood. Let us not take any more of it, please, sir. 

Dr. Marcus. May I make a statement? It has been called to the 
attention of this committee that it has been very unfair to doctors 

95008 — 52— pt. 4 3 



413S COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

and their patients to come here for 2 days and we had to cancel 

Mr. Wood. In that connection, I see a bunch of them here that 
testified yesterday that were raising sand. 

Dr. Marcus. Some of these men canceled their appointments for 2 
or 3 days anticipating this very sort of thing and so do I. 

Mr. Doyle. They could get back and send word they are back in 
their offices, and their patients could come in, instead of sitting here 
for 2 days after they have testified. 

Dr. Marcus. Could I answer that ? Contrary to what some of the 
people might think, since my name was first mentioned in this paper, 
regarding this committee, a year or so ago, my practice has increased 
terrifically, and if I am permitted to stay on the staff of hospitals and 
not be expelled as happened to other doctors whose names have been 
mentioned before the committee, it will grow more, and I have had 
expressions of confidence from some of the leading men in this com- 
munity, including men who are members of the bar, and who have 
served as judges in this community. 

Mr. Wood. I am not going to permit you to take up the time of 
this committee to make an advertising talk here. Let us eliminate it 
all, then. Just a moment, sir. 

Are there any further questions ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Wood. Is there any reason why the witness should not be ex- 
cused from further attendance on the committee ? It is so ordered. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Morris Feder. 

Mr. Wood. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn? You 
solemnly swear the evidence you shall give this committee shall be the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Dr. Feder. I do. 

Mr. Wood. Have a seat, please, sir. 

TESTIMONY OF DR. MORRIS R. FEDER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 
COUNSEL, ROBERT W. KENNY, DANIEL G. MARSHALL, AND 
THOMAS G. NETJSOM 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir? 
Mr. Wood. You have the same counsel that represents this witness 
as the one previously. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Dr. Feder. Morris E. Feder, F-e-d-e-r. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born? 

Dr. Feder. In Minneapolis, Minn., October 6, 1910. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Feder. I do. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived here? 

Dr. Feder. Thirty years. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the answer ? 

Dr. Feder. Thirty years. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession? 

Dr. Feder. Physician. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4139 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you practiced your profession in 

Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Feder. Fifteen years, except for military service. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long were you in military service ? 

Dr. Feder. Over 3 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state briefly what your scholastic training 
has been for your profession? 

Dr. Feder." Premedical and medical training in local universities, 
postgraduate training at some other universities. 

Mr. Tavenner, Doctor, I would like to ask you if you have at any 
time been a member of the medical branch of the Communist Party 
of Los Angeles, a group of the Communist Party which testimony 
has shown was made up exclusively of members of the medical pro- 
fession, and if you were, I desire to ask you further regarding your 
knowledge of the formation and its purposes. 

Dr. Feder. Mr. Tavenner, I most emphatically decline to answer 
such a question or any similar questions or derivative questions for 
these reasons. First, I will never, and I mean never, cooperate with 
this committee or similar constituted bodies, and their assault on the 
American right of freedom of speech, thought, and association. 

Secondly, I decline accepting the privilege of the fifth amendment 
of the Constitution, which, Mr. Tavenner, was in the Constitution 
before I was born and before this committee was constituted, and it 
was placed there by honorable and decent men who were confronted 
with the same type of assault upon their liberties that I am being 
subjected to today. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Feder. I decline to answer that for the same reason. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Dr. Feder. I decline to answer for the same reason. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Wood. Any reason why this witness should not be excused from 
further attendance ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Wood. The committee will stand in recess until 1 : 45. 

(Thereupon a recess was taken at 12 : 15 p. m., until 1 : 45 p. m., the 
same day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

(The subcommittee reconvened, pursuant to recess, at 1: 50 p. m.) 

Mr. Wood. Let us have order, please. 

Counsel, are you ready to proceed? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. I will call Dr. Edward Goodlaw. 

Mr. Wood. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn. 

Dr. Goodlaw. May I request that the pictures be taken now? 

Mr. Wood. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give 
this subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

Dr. Goodlaw. I do. 



4140 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

TESTIMONY OF EDWIN ISIAH GOODLAW, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 
COUNSEL, ROBERT W. KENNY, THOMAS G. NEUSOM, AND DANIEL 
G. MARSHALL 

Mr. Wood. I understand that you request that you not be inter- 
rupted by photographers during your testimony. 

Dr. Goodlaw. Yes, sir. May I make another request, sir, that I 
have a little greater physical distance from this force and violence 
Congressman here, so that we prevent the force and violence that he 
has exhibited. 

Mr. Jackson. I might say that that will meet with my approval 
entirely. 

Dr. Goodlaw. I am glad we concur on preventing force and violence, 
Congressman, and I hope that there 

Mr. Wood. Are you making a threat to this committee? 

Dr. Goodlaw. Oh, no. 

Mr. Wood. Well, have a seat, please. 

Dr. Goodlaw. I just want to be sure. I have a paper here that 
quotes the fact that you held him back from hitting one of the 
witnesses. 

Mr. Wood. Somebody is leaning on their imagination, there is 
nobody belligerent here. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir? 

Dr. Goodlaw. Edward Isiah Goodlaw. I come from a long line 
of fighters for peace. 

Mr. Wood. Never mind that. Just answer the question. 

Dr. Goodlaw. My name is after the prophet of peace, to be 
reminded 

Mr. Wood. You came here with a chip on your shoulder and we 
are going to ask as patiently as we can that you answer the questions 
that are asked of you. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your name, please, sir? 

Dr. Goodlaw. E-d-w-a-r-d I-s-i-a-h G-o-o-d-l-a-w. 

Mr. Tavenner. I assume you are represented by the same counsel 
as represented the former witnesses ? 

Dr. Goodlaw. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state when and where you were born, 
please, sir? 

Dr. Goodlaw. I was born in Denver, Colo. I would have said with 
pride, as Sam Houston did. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the witness has answered the 
question. 

Dr. Goodlaw. January 4, 1913. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a resident of Los Angeles? 

Dr. Goodlaw. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles? 

Dr. Goodlaw. Off and on since about 1922 or 1923. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

Dr. Goodlaw. An optometrist, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in the practice 
of your profession in Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Goodlaw. Eighteen years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state briefly to the committee, please, 
what your scholastic training has been for your profession? 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4141 

Dr. Goodlaw. I graduated from the University of California. 

Mr. Tavenner. Doctor, I would like to ask you whether or not 
you were at any time a member of the medical branch of the Com- 
munist Party in Los Angeles and if you were, I would like then to 
inquire as to what you know about its formation and its purposes. 

Dr. Goodlaw. Did someone say that I was a member ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Goodlaw. I will decline to answer this question for the follow- 
ing reasons : As an optometrist I have responsibility over and above 
that of a lay citizen. I have the responsibility of the welfare of my 
patient and that confidential relationship of doctor and patient must 
be maintained. I believe this committee undermines this by re- 
quiring that the witness doctor turn informer to cooperate with this 
committee. No patient could possibly have confidence in any doctor 
who discloses any information about 

Mr. Wood. Please leave off the argument part of it and just state 
what your objections are. 

Dr. Goodlaw. My objections, sir, in this one point, is that to turn 
informer and cooperate with this committee makes that doctor in- 
capable of retaining the confidence of his patient. 

Mr. Doyle. May I ask, you are reading a statement here that you 
have, are you not, sir ? 

Dr. Goodlaw. I am reading from prepared notes. 

Mr. Wood. I am hoping the doctor is going to cooperate to the ex- 
tent of refraining from arguing his points and state the reasons. 

Dr. Goodla w. I have no desire to argue with this committee. I 
only have a desire to see the committee leave. As an optometrist, I 
have a place in the health and welfare of my community. I believe 
the work of this, committee can only serve to hamper and undermine 
the health and welfare of this community, and so, on that ground, too, 
I refuse to answer this question. 

I believe that this committee is substituting political control over 
the professions or professional qualifications, and I believe it is my 
duty as an honest professional man to resist any effort to substitute 
political for professional qualifications. 

I believe that this committee is imposing political orthodoxy 

Mr. Wood. Please, sir, we are not concerned about your beliefs, 
and we are not at all concerned about your beliefs. 

Dr. Goodlaw. I don't think you can tell me how to answer it. 

Mr. Wood. I am telling you not to argue. 

Dr. Goodlaw. I am not arguing, I am making a valid point. 

Mr. Wood. State your grounds. 

Dr. Goodlaw. My grounds will be valid and without argument. 

Mr. Wood. So far you have not stated a single one. I would like 
to have some grounds if you have got them. 

Dr. Goodlaw. Then upon the further ground this committee is in- 
terfering with further scientific progress because of the imposition of 
political orthodoxy, and this will curtail the progress in my pro- 
fession directly. On that ground I refuse to answer the question. 

As a citizen of these United States I have several other reasons for 
refusing to answer this question. I refuse to answer this question 
on the ninth and tenth amendments which places sovereignty of the 
people in the hands of the people and prohibits this committee from 



4142 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

carrying on this kind of work of telling ns with whom to associate 
and to what organizations we may belong and so forth. 

I refuse to answer this question on the first amendment in two ways : 
Under the resolution 

Mr. Wood. We are familiar with the first amendment. If you are 
invoking the first amendment, that is sufficient. 

Any other reasons ? 

Dr. Goodlaw. As a further ground, then, under the resolution em- 
powering this committee to investigate propaganda because this is a 
legislative committee, any legislation that it may recommend would 
be a violation of the freedom of speech which the first amendment 
specifically prohibits legislation upon. 

The further ground on the fourth amendment, which prohibits 
seizure of private property and attempting to seize my thoughts, would 
be more unwarranted than seizing steel mills. 

A fourth point, the sixth amendment which would require all of 
the judiciary which you as a legislative committee not only cannot 
give but also have not given in your accusations which you implied 
when you subpenaed me. 

The further grounds for refusing to answer this question is that the 
actions of this committee are creating an atmosphere of hysteria which 
promulgates war. Fortunately the American people have not accepted 
this and that was demonstrated yesterday by the alert flock. It is the 
duty of every American citizen to do all in his power for peace. 

Mr. Wood. That is argumentative. 

Dr. Goodlaw. The last reason for refusing to answer this question 
is I stand on the fifth amendment, which protects the freedom of 
silence. 

Mr. Tavenner. On what basis under the fifth amendment do you 
refuse to answer the question ? 

Dr. Goodlaw. I don't remember, sir, whether it was Rutledge or 
Edgerton that referred to the clause in the fifth amendment that 
permits the freedom of silence as the bulwark upon which tyrants 
stub their toes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you relying in your refusal to testify upon that 
provision of the fifth amendment under which a person cannot be 
compelled to testify in a matter involving himself if to do so might 
tend to incriminate him ? 

Dr. Goodlaw. Of course I decline to answer on each and every part 
of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. All right. That is a provision of it, and you are 
relying upon that ? 

Dr. Goodlaw. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Dr. Goodlaw. I answered the question almost exactly in a matter 
of sense, and I continue the same answer on exactly the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Dr. Goodlaw. Well, do you want to put it in the past tense, I 
answer in the past tense on the same grounds for the same reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Walter. Are you not the man that snatched the American flag 
out of the hands of one of the pickets out here in front of the building ? 

Dr. Goodlaw. I didn't snatch an American flag, sir. I was asked 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4143 

if I would take an American flag which I gladly accepted. Again, 
as Congressman Wood says, sometimes the papers do get things wrong. 
I have a picture here saying I tried very hard to uphold the flag while 
one of the procommitteemen tried very hard to grab it from me as 
he dropped his flag in the gutter. I also have another picture showing 
one of the procommitteemen getting paid on the picket line. 

Mr. Jackson. Does the witness infer that the committee had any- 
thing to do with the payment of anyone on either of the picket lines? 

Dr. Goodlaw. I draw no 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Goodlaw. I certainly make no inference. 

Mr. Wood. Are there any further questions ? 

Any reason why the witness should not be excused from further 
attendance on the committee? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Wood. It is so ordered. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I will call Dr. Harold Koppelman. 

Mr. Wood. Will you raise you right hand. You swear that the 
evidence you shall give this subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Dr. Koppelman. I do. 

TESTIMONY OP DR. HAROLD KOPPELMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 
COUNSEL, ROBERT W. KENNY, THOMAS G. NEUSOM, AND DANIEL 
O. MARSHALL 

Mr. Tavenner. Have a seat, Doctor. 

What is your name, please? 

Dr. Koppelman. Harold Koppelman. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ? 

Dr. Koppelman. Iwas born in the city of New York in 1906. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a resident of Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Koppelman. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the spelling of your last name? 

Dr. Koppelman. K-o-p-p-e-l-m-a-n. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Koppelman. Since 1946. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

Dr. Koppelman. I am a doctor of medicine in the specialty of 
surgery. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in the practice 
of medicine in Los Angeles? 

Dr. Koppelman. Since my arrival here in 1946. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state briefly what scholastic training has 
been for your profession ? 

Dr. Koppelman. I went to public schools in the city of New York, 
to Columbia College where I got an A. B. degree in 1927 with the 
award to Phi Beta Kappa. To the College of Physicians and Sur- 
geons of Columbia University in the city of New York, where I gradu- 
ated in 1931 with an award of Alpha Omega Alpha. I interned in 
the city of New York for 2 years, and I also took a graduate course 
in surgery at New York University School of Medicine, after com- 
pletion of my interneship. 



4144 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

In 1943 I was admitted to fellowship in the American College of 
Surgeons and in 1949 I passed the examination by the American 
Board of Surgery and I was then qualified by them also as a specialist 
in my field. 

Mr. Tavenner. Doctor, were you a member of an organization in 
Los Angeles known as the Medical Branch of the Communist Party? 

Dr. Kofpelman. Mr. Tavenner, I decline to answer that question 
and I would like to give you several grounds and I promise to be brief 
and unemotional but I think very sincere, and they are very important 
to me. 

First, I believe in answering any question relative to my private 
associations would concede that Congress and committees of Congress 
the right to ask it and this I do not concede. I believe that the first 
amendment proscribes the Congress from asking such questions or 
considering any legislation which might abridge the freedom of speech 
or association, and I think I hold with eminent legal authority in 
this belief. That is especially a Supreme Court decision which I read 
that stated that this committee does not have the right to inquire 
into the private affairs of the citizen. 

My second reason for refusing is that although you haven't named 
the person who I assume gave you such testimony, it involves prob- 
ably the testimony of a prior witness to this committee who very 
possibly, as far as I know, may be an unreliable witness. I refuse 
to answer without full recourse to due process of law like the ability 
to cross-examine which I understand cannot be afforded by this com- 
mittee although such due process I believe to be specifically protected 
in the sixth and fifth amendments. 

My third reason is I refuse to answer this question as a protest 
against what I consider to be the extra-legal assumption of judicial 
function by this, a legislative committee, and in protest to its punitive 
effect, if not intent in blacklisting persons, in harming professional 
men by loss of hospital appointments. This was a personal experi- 
ence of my own. 

Further, as a protest against the fear and intimidation and hysteria 
abroad in this land to which I believe the activities of this committee 
have contributed, although I do not hold them completely responsible 
for it. 

I refuse also and protest against the attempt to impose orthodoxy 
of opinion in this country. I really refuse as a plea for a return to 
sanity in this country. I think in my field, in science, this imposition 
of conformity is especially dangerous because in all periods of history 
where it has been forgotten, science has stagnated. It is the very 
leaven of democracy. If I had time, and I won't burden the committee, 
I would like to repeat a quote from Walter Lippmann, a conservative 
writer on this question yesterday, but I won't. 

Penultimately, I refuse as a protest against being called here in an 
atmosphere of accusation when I have never to my knowledge com- 
mitted any crime, when I am not guilty of anything, except perhaps 
of having had the courage to stand up for unpopular opinions which I 
consider to be my right. 

And finally, I decline to answer on the grounds provided in the 
fifth amendment to the Constitution. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4145 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you any knowledge of the formation of a 
medical branch of the Communist Party in Los Angeles and of its 
purposes ? 

Dr. Koppelman. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Tavenner, 
for precisely the same grounds I have just given you. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Koppelman. I refuse to answer that question for precisely the 
same grounds previously given. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Dr. Koppelman. I refuse to answer that question for precisely the 
same grounds previously given. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Wood. Have you any questions ? 

Mr. Doyle. I have one question, Doctor. Doctor, you have related 
a fact showing that you have received at least one of the highest recog- 
nitions that can be extended a man in your scientific field and you have 
indicated that you felt this committee, as I wrote it down, was assum- 
ing semi judicial functions at least, and that even though we didn't 
intend the punitive effect there was a punitive result of these hearings. 
I am trying to use substantially your words. Under Public Law 601, 
you also referred to it, this committee which you are fighting with is 
expressly charged with investigations of the extent, the character and 
the objects of un-American, subversive propaganda activities in the 
United States. The last section of this first paragraph charges this 
committee with studying these questions and investigating them, and 
all of the questions with relation thereto for the express purpose of 
making recommendations to the whole Congress of remedial legislation. 

Now, it is under that law that we are here. I appreciate the fact 
that you are not emotional, and you said you would not be, and I appre- 
ciate the fact that you are fairly brief. Have you a suggestion to us 
now, and I have called your attention to the fact that we are charged 
with an investigation of anything which appears as subversive propa- 
ganda and activities. Have you a suggestion how we can get informa- 
tion about subversive activities and propaganda other than by the way 
we are doing it ? 

Dr. Koppelman. Well, Mr. Doyle 

Mr. Doyle. I am asking you that in good faith. 

Dr. Koppelman. I appreciate the good faith and the sincerity, I 
really do. I have not solved this problem in my own mind, and I 
have been studying the problem since I received my subpena in Janu- 
ary of this year. It has meant for me the need to study law rather 
than surgery for this year, and I haven't found the answer to a ques- 
tion, and it is a legal ctilemma, it seems to me, that is not resolved even 
in the Supreme Court decisions. I can't at all assume any technical 
legal or any other knowledge in this field. My only feeling about it 
is that until the technique is found, please, Congressman, consider 
avoiding trampling on people's rights, professions, and livelihood in 
the process of seeking this, and to protect the people's rights until 
you find a technique Congress has asked you to find. That is all of 
the answer I can give you. 



4146 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Doyle. Now I would like to make this one further statement: 
The last paragraph of Public Law 601 expressly says to this com- 
mittee, which is here with you today studying this problem, for the 
purpose of making such investigation and report, we are authorized 
and charged with using the subpena if we want to, if we feel it is 
necessary, we are expressly charged with having hearings, either in 
full committee or subcommittee, and not only that, but Congress felt 
it was so important that we make these investigations both with or 
without subpenas that they authorized that there be subcommitees, 
and even the chairman of a subcommittee has authority to sign 
subpenas. 

Now, I am asking you because we represent your Congress, and I 
am asking you, I am a Member of Congress and I am asking you now 
as one of the top men in your profession, surgery, what recommenda- 
tions have you got to the United States Congress through us of 
remedial legislation. 

Dr. Koppelman. I have a definite recommendation about this di- 
lemma. I think that you gathered from the opinions I expressed that 
I believe the law was unconstitutional to begin with, and I would say 
to Congress, "You have asked us to do an impossible task, and that 
the Constitution doesn't allow it. Excuse us and remove the 
committee." 

That would be my own personal advice and I give it in all sincerity 
and good faith. I think the danger to the country which you have 
been asked to investigate is in good hands, and I mean the protection 
of the country's danger is in good hands. I would trust the present 
authorities entrusted with protecting our security and I think that the 
Congress and the country would be much better off if the energies 
expended in this heart-breaking kind of procedure and hysteria and 
fear that has been widespread, that Europe perhaps doesn't under- 
stand and is laughing at us, it would be much better spent in studying 
legislation for public welfare, studying how to accomplish peace, and 
things of that nature. I think this is not productive. 

Mr. Doyle. You see, Doctor — and with this statement I will cease 
taking up your important time, because I know you must want to get 
back to your office 

Dr. Koppelman. I will be glad to wait for you, Congressman. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, I make this statement, sir. You see this commit- 
tee is in possession of just a huge amount of evidence, documentary 
and otherwise, that many members of the Communist Party in the 
United States are advocating measures present and in the future which 
are definitely subversive. Now, we are charged with investigating 
subversive propaganda and activities, and so whenever we call a mem- 
ber or a citizen whom we have reason to believe, and I mean an 
honest-to-God good reason and a fair reason based on competent evi- 
dence, or factual statements — whenever we call a person by subpena 
and we state that we believe that person is a Communist, we are not 
necessarily saying that all Communists are actively subversive, but 
we do say that we know of the policy generally of the American party 
in the United States as being subversive. 

Now, therefore, we are charged under this bill, do you not see, Doc- 
tor, and therefore our definite assignment is to investigate subversive 
activities and propaganda even if it is in the Communist Party. The 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4147 

Communist Party, according to our records, is one of the subversive 
groups in the United States. You wouldn't want us to do less than 
our duty, would you? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Koppelman. I only want to say in parting, my own opinion is 
that it appears to me what Congress asked you to do is a judicial func- 
tion and I believe in the division of our Government into the three 
functions, and I would leave it to the judicial part of this Govern- 
ment, and put Congress to work on more constructive matters. 

Mr. Doyle. I realize that you have previously stated you were not 
a lawyer and of course you have to rely upon the opinions of able 
counsel and writers for whether or not it is a judicial function. 

Now, because I recognize that your mind was made up before you 
came and because you were not emotional in relating to us your objec- 
tions, I just want to say this to you as I am a professional man, too. 
Won't you please note that there isn't a man on this committee that 
asked to be there. I didn't ask to be on this committee and none of us 
did, and we accepted the assignment. Therefore, will you please know 
as one professional man to another, that regardless of the rather harsh 
criticism you made of our functions it is not an easy nor pleasant 
thing exactly for us to sit here on an assignment of Congress and 
subpena you busy and professional men and pull you out of your of- 
fices, and we don't enjoy it. I just wanted to get that across to you. 
Jt isn't a picnic, and it is far from an easy .physical or mental job to 
sit here and urge you men to come and help us in our study of this sub- 
versive problem. 

Dr. Koppelman. I appreciate your difficulty, Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. And we all feel the same way. 

Dr. Koppelman. If I were in your place, I would go back and tell 
Congress, "This committee has no valid reason for existence, and let 
us discontinue it," and that is how I would solve the problem. 

Mr. Doyle. May I make this final statement, and may I say this 
to you in utter frankness, as a result of this Los Angeles hearing, up 
to date, I am more convinced than ever that this committee is abso- 
lutely necessary in the history of our Nation. 

Dr. Koppelman. I am sorry to hear you say that, Congressman. 

Mr. Wood. Are there any further questions? 

Mr. Jackson. I have no questions, except to say, Doctor, that it is 
a very pleasant relief to hear someone discuss this objectively and 
quietly, and I appreciate it myself. 

Mr. Wood. I was about to express the same sentiments, and it is 
gratifying, irrespective of the difference of opinion that exists be- 
tween your philosophy and mine. I am nevertheless grateful to you 
for being permitted to discuss it with you calmly. 

You will be excused from further attendance on the committee. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I will call Dr. Jack Nedelman. 

Mr. Wood. Would you raise your right hand, please, sir. You do 
solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give this committee shall 
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so helD vou 
God? 

Dr. Nedelman. Yes, sir, I do. 



4148 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

TESTIMONY OF DR. JACK NEDELMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 
COUNSEL, ROBERT KENNY, THOMAS G. NETJSOM, AND DANIEL 
G. MARSHALL 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ? 

Dr. Nedelman. Jack Nedelman, N-e-d-e-1-m-a-n. 

Mr. Wood. For the benefit of the record, the same counsel is appear- 
ing for Mr. Nedelman, and I understand appeared for the previous 
witness. 

Dr. Nedelman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Doctor? 

Dr. Nedelman. I was born in Chicago, 111., July 8, 1914. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a resident of Los Angeles? 

Dr. Nedelman. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a resident of Los Angeles? 

Dr. Nedelman. Approximately 32 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

Dr. Nedelman. I am a physician. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you engaged in the practice of 
medicine in Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Nedelman. Approximately 11 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state briefly to the committee what your 
scholastic training has been for your profession ? 

Dr. Nedelman. I received a bachelor of arts degree from the Uni- 
versity of California at Los Angeles in 1937, and I received my train- 
ing in medicine at the College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons 
in Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. Doctor, I ask you to tell the committee what infor- 
mation you have, if any, regarding the existence of a branch, a 
medical branch of the Communist Party in Los Angeles, and if you 
have knowledge of it to state how that branch was formed and what 
its purposes and objectives are. 

Dr. Nedelman. Mr. Tavenner, I shall decline to answer that ques- 
tion. The committee may be happy to hear that I am not going to 
make a lengthy statement. However, I do not mean this to indicate 
in any way that I approve of what' the committee is doing. I am 
proud to be a party to this courageous defense of civil liberties that 
is taking place in this hearing room this week. I therefore decline 
to answer that question on the basis of the first, the fifth, and ninth 
and tenth amendments of the Constitution. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Nedelman. The same answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Dr. Nedelman. The same answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Wood. Have you any questions? 

Mr. Jackson. Thank you, Doctor. 

Mr. Wood. If there are no further questions, the witness is excused. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Milton Lester. 

Mr. Wood. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you 
solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give this subcommittee 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4149 

shall be the truth, the whole truth, aud nothing but the truth, so 
help you God? 
Dr. Lester. I do. 

TESIMONY OF DR. MILTON LESTER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, 
ROBERT W. KENNY, THOMAS G. NEUSOM, AND DANIEL G. 
MARSHALL 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Dr. Lester. Milton Lester. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born? 

Dr. Lester. In New York City, January 4, 1919. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Lester. I do. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a resident of Los Angeles? 

Dr. Lester. About 24 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

Dr. Lester. I am a physician, specializing in psychiatry. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in the practice of 
psychiatry, if that is the proper word, in Los Angeles? 

Dr. Lester. I started a private practice of psychiatry in 1948. 

Mr. Tavenner. In Los Angeles? 

Dr. Lester. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state to the committee briefly what your 
scholastic training has been for the practice of your profession? 

Dr. Lester. I attended the public schools of New York and Los 
Angeles, and I graduated from the University of California at Los 
Angeles with a bachelor of arts degree, with honors. I attended the 
University of California Medical School in Berkeley and San Fran- 
cisco. After that I interned and had specialized residency training in 
psychiatry. After that I had 3 years of further training in psycho- 
analytical psychiatry. 

Mr. Tavenner. Doctor, do you have any knowledge of the existence 
of a medical branch of the Communist Party in Los Angeles? 

Dr. Lester. I shall decline to answer this question for the following 
reasons : First, this committee has no right to inquire into my beliefs, 
associations, or thoughts, or for that matter into these beliefs, associa- 
tions, or thoughts of any citizen or person in the United States. Sec- 
ondly, as a scientist and particularly as a psychiatrist I have a special 
interest and a special duty in regard to myself and to my patients. 
One thing that I must always help patients to accomplish is to examine 
and test reality. * To do this they must always examine facts. 

Mr. Tavenner. That is what we are endeavoring to do here, Doctor. 

Dr. Lester. I don't agree with that at all. I will elaborate on 
that. 

Mr. Wood. Will you please state your reasons and not your argu- 
ments ? 

Dr. Lester. I am stating my reasons. Anything that a witness says 
here that doesn't agree with your views and argument, and that is 
obvious  

Mr. Wood. That is argumentative. 

Dr. Lester. That is all right with me. 

Mr. Wood. I know, but it is not with us. 

Dr. Lester. I didn't ask to be brought here. 



4150 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 
Mr. Wood. No, but perhaps now that you are here- 



Dr. Lester. I will not conform to what you want me to say. 

Mr. Wood. This committee is entitled to at least the courtesy of a 
dignified hearing, and 

Dr. Lester. My answer was proceeding with perfect dignity until 
you interrupted with discourtesy. 

Mr. Wood. Well, that is not true, and you know it is not true. 

Dr. Lester. Don't tell me what I know isn't true, I am stating the 
truth. 

Mr. Wood. I have not been discourteous to you at all. 

Dr. Lester. If you will hold your tongue and let me alone. 

Mr. Wood. I am going to interrupt you just as often as you get to 
arguing. You can state your reasons in succinct form and we will be 
glad to get along with you. 

Dr. Lester. It is obvious I can't argue with anyone unless they start 
arguing with me. I was proceeding until you interrupted. As I was 
saying, to test reality and to be a scientist means to examine facts. I 
tried to help my patients attain this status of reality testing, and I 
try to do it myself constantly. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman 

Mr. Wood. I will hold that that is not a pertinent answer to the 
question that is given. 

Dr. Lester. If you will let me finish, you will see the pertinency of 
it. 

Mr. Wood. I have already ruled about it, sir. 

Dr. Lester. I will not answer this question the way you want me 
to answer it, I will answer it as I want to answer it, and if you want 
to withdraw the question, fine. 

Mr. Wood. I am not going to sit here for the balance of the after- 
noon listening to an argument about it. 

Dr. Lester. It is all right with me, I will proceed, then. What this 
committee is doing in my view is not new in history. It is seeking 
to substitute an examination of facts by citizens, to substitute for this 
examination of facts an acceptance of slogans which make it unneces- 
sary for citizens to think. 

Now, the prime slogan that this committee has sought to foist on 
the American people is something about a conspiracy of communism. 
In my opinion this is a delusion. 

Mr. Wood. I hope you will not require me to caution you again. 

Dr. Lester. You may caution me to the end of time, I am going to 
say what I have to say, I will not answer a question as you want an 
answer. 

Mr. Wood. I just want you to answer. 

Dr. Lester. I am answering. 

Mr. Wood. That is not an answer and I am not going to caution 
you again. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Lester. As further grounds I have seen this committee doing 
what has been done in other countries and other periods of history. It 
is labeling some minority dangerous, and then causing the people in 
a given country to fear this minority, and then causing the people 
to give up their critical faculty of thinking for fear of being associated 
with that minority and by this means obtaining conformity and a 
bended knee from a complacent and compliant population. For this 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4151 

reason, which is one aspect of onr rights protected under the first 
amendment, I will not answer this question. 

Furthermore, it is my duty as a citizen and as a scientist to resist 
the imposition on the American people and on myself fantasies that 
don't accord with realism. This country is under the spell of a fantasy 
and delusion that we are in danger from every one while the people 
are blinded to the only real danger that confronts them, and that is 
the activity of committees like this which seek to stifle their ability 
to think and to speak. 

A further ground is that under the fifth amendment a citizen cannot 
be required to testify against himself, and as the appellate court of 
appeals pointed out recently it is elementary that the use of the fifth 
amendment by a witness. 

Mr. Wood. The committee is familiar with the provisions of the 
fifth amendment. 

Dr. Lester. You are obviously not familiar 

Mr. Wood. I am saying to you that we are, and if you claim the 
provisions of the fifth amendment please state so. 

Dr. Lester. I am stating it, and I am stating you are obviously not 
familiar, because the fifth amendment is not only directed at the 
citizen but at committees, and it specifically says no person may be 
required to testify against himself. 

Mr. Wood. I have ruled that this committee knows of the provisions 
of the fifth amendment and it doesn't need any law class. 

Dr. Lester. Why are you violating the Constitution, and it says 
you may not require a witness to testify against himself, and you are 
doing that very thing. 

Mr. Wood. No, sir; we are not doing it, we are giving you an 
opportunity. 

Dr. Lester. Mr. Jackson said, "If only we didn't have the fifth 
amendment." 

Mr. Jackson. That is another suggestion. I suggest you see your- 
self or another psychiatrist, because you are certainly off the beam. 

Dr. Lester. I heard it. 

Mr. Walter. Now, so you do not go off on the wrong premise, let 
me correct you with respect to what you said about the fifth amend- 
ment. "Nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness 
against himself." 

Dr. Lester. What is so obscure about that? 

Mr. Walter. All right, go on. 

Dr. Lester. It is perfectly obvious. 

Mr. Wood. Do you have any further reasons besides the fifth amend- 
ment for refusing to answer the question? 

Dr. Lester. I am stating them. You want Mr. Walter to withdraw 
his comment ? 

Mr. Walter. I did not know that this was a criminal case. 

Dr. Lester. It isn't yet, and as far as I am concerned it never 
will be. 

Mr. Walter. I do not know. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Dr. Lester. I don't care whether you asked for them, you are going 
to get them, yes, I am a citizen and you are a Congressman. 

Mr. Wood. I do not know whether we are or not. 

Dr. Lester. You cannot tell me what to think. I can tell you what 

fr» Ar\ oiirl irnn o ro o pifivon onr! irmi raiivaoonf tna nannlo nnrl liovo 



4152 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

you are trying to tell the people what to do. You can't stifle me or tell 
me what to think or say. 

Mr. Wood. I can't do that. 

Dr. Lester. You are damn right you can't. 

Mr. Wood. But I can certainly eliminate you from this hearing 
room. 

Dr. Lester. You want to eliminate me? 

Mr. Wood. From the room, and I will do it before I will continue 
to be insulted by you. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I move the witness' language where he 
used the word "damn" be stricken out. 

Mr. Walter. I think it should be left in. 

Mr. Jackson. I object to removing it. 

Mr. Wood. I am going to let it stay in. 

If the witness has any further reasons for refusing to answer the 
question, which he is willing to offer in a dignified and decorous man- 
ner, we will be glad to hear him. And if he cannot offer them in that 
manner, I prefer not to hear him at all. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Lester. And on the further grounds, as I started to say when 
I was interrupted, I think, that in claiming the right not to testify 
against myself I am admitting no guilt ; this is elementary. On the 
further grounds of the ninth and tenth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Dr. Lester. I have answered the question, or the essence of it, and 
I will refuse on the same grounds for the same reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Dr. Lester. I decline to answer on the same grounds and for the 
same reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Wood. Are there any questions ? Just a moment, you are here 
under subpena, are you not? 

Dr. Lester. I certainly am. 

Mr. Wood. You received a subpena from this committee? 

Dr. Lester. That is right. 

Mr. Wood. And you received a subpena from this committee to ap- 
pear here at this hearing, did you not ? 

Dr. Lester. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Wood. And you are here in obedience to that subpena ? 

Dr. Lester. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Wood. You will be excused. 

The witness is excused from further attendance on the committee. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Oner Bell Barker. 

Mr. Neusom. Can I have an opportunity to call him for the reasons 
that I explained this morning — he has not arrived and I found out 
during the noon hour that there was some difficulty. 

Mr. Wood. We will take a recess of 15 minutes and give you an op- 
portunity to call him. 

(A brief recess was taken.) 

Mr. Wood. Let us have order, please. 

Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4153 

Mr. Wood. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Samuel Sperling. 

Mr. Wood. Dr. Sperling, will you raise your right hand and be 
sworn. You do solemnly swear the testimony you shall give this 
committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Dr. Sperling. I do. 

Mr. Wood. Have a seat, please. 

TESTIMONY OF DR. SAMUEL J. SPERLING, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 

COUNSEL, MORRIS E. COHN 

Mr. Wood. Are you represented by counsel ? 

Dr. Sperling. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Wood. Will counsel please identify himself ? . 

Mr. Cohn. My name is Morris E. Colin. 

Mr. Wood. Of the Los Angeles bar ? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, Doctor % 

Dr. Sperling. Samuel J. Sperling. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name ? 

Dr. Sperling. S-p-e-r-1-i-n-g. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Doctor ? 

Dr. Sperling. Philadelphia, in 1905. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you reside in Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Sperling. Yes, sir, I do. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Sperling. Since 1935, except for an intermission of approxi- 
mately 4 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Armed Forces ? 

Dr. Sperling. Yes, sir, I was. 

Mr. Tavenner. During the 4-year period that you mentioned ? 

Dr. Sperling. That is right. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

Dr. Sperling. I am a physician. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you practiced medicine in Los 
Angeles ? 

Dr. Sperling. Since 1936. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee briefly what your 
scholastic training has been for your profession ? 

Dr. Sperling. Well, I attended public schools in Philadelphia, 
grammar and high school ; college at the University of Pennsylvania, 
and A. B. degree and M. D. degree at the University of Pennsylvania, 
andl took the usual internship, resident internship in neurology 
and psychiatry, and prepared myself for specialization in those fields, 
and I limited my work mainly to psychiatry and particularly to 
psychoanalysis and I am a member of the Los Angeles County Medi- 
cal Association and California Medical Association and the American 
Medical Association and the American Psychiatric Association and 
the American Psychoanalytical Association and the National Psycho- 
logical, and the Association for the Advancement of Science, and so 
forth. That will give you an idea. 

95008—52 — pt. 4 4 



4154 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

I am also officially, you might say, recognized as a specialist in my 
field by the American Board of Neurology and Psychiatry both in 
neurology and psychiatry. That is, you might say the recognition in 
American medicine for any speciality work. 

Mr. Tavenner. Doctor, the committee is investigating the extent 
and character of the formation of a Communist Party cell within the 
medical profession, and that is a cell made up exclusively of members 
of the medical profession, which has been referred to as the medical 
branch of the Communist Party here in Los Angeles. We are anxious 
to learn all we can about the formation of that group, and particularly 
its purposes and its objectives. 

There is testimony before the committee by Dr. Light, and Dr. 
Reznick, that you were a member. 

Dr. Sperling. May I, Mr. Tavenner, interrupt you without any 
intention of being .discourteous, to ask your consideration before' you 
subject me to naming names, or differentiating between names of 
people whom I know or I do not know, to consider 

Mr. Tavenner. 1 haven't asked you about names other than your 

own. . -it 

Dr. Sperling. Your intention, as you express it, not to invade the 
right of doctor and patient, just to give this to your consideration. 
I am in a special position. 

Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment, Doctor. If I get to the point where 
I am asking you a question of that kind, I want to be reminded of it, 
because I do not propose to ask you any such question. 

Mr. Wood. May I at that point make an inquiry which probably 
will clarify the situation. Has Dr. Light ever been a patient of yours ? 

Dr. Sperling. This is the very point I want to make. 

Mr. Wood. Has she been a patient of yours? 

Dr. Sperling. This is the very point I wanted you to consider, if I 
may present it for you, very briefly. 

Mr. Wood. Woul d you j ust answer that question, and then 

Dr. Sperling. That would be giving away my right of professional 
confidence between patient and doctor. 

Mr. Wood. If you say she has ever been your patient ? 

Dr. Sperling. I don't want to in any way appear to oppose answer- 
ing your question, but I will accept your opinion about this, if you 
will consider these facts then I will be able to answer your question. 

Mr. Wood. There is but one fact that would make the position 
tenable at all, and if there has ever been a relationship of physician 
and patient between you and another of the doctors that Mr. Tavenner 
named, I would be constrained personally to hold that you should not 
be interrogated with reference to any confidential relationship exist- 
ing between you and a certain person of that kind. But I think first 
you should answer the question as to whether that relationship exists 
or whether it doesn't, or whether it has ever existed. 

Dr. Sperling. May I consult with counsel, please ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Wood. As incident to the question that counsel asked you, I 
interposed an intermediate question, as to whether or not either of 
the parties, doctors whose names Mr. Tavenner gave, have ever oc- 
cupied a relationship of patient with you. 

Dr. Sperling. I cannot respond to that because this is the very 
question I want to ask counsel and be permitted to have you pass upon 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4155 

it, whether this very thing would be infringed upon, and counsel has 
stated it is his intention, and I want to make him aware of certain 
facts whether his intention would be executed by such a question and 
by expressing such names. Now, if in his opinion it would not, then 
I would abide bv that. 

Mr. Wood. Well, I do not exactly understand the reason of the in- 
terrogation or the comments. I have asked you a very simple ques- 
tion, and it does not infringe upon anybody's confidential relationship 
as to whether or not 

Dr. Sperling. Could I try to clarify that for you ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, that is a direct question, and I think 
it should require an answer before any other question is asked. 

Mr. Cohn. Would you please state the question again ? 

Mr. Wood. Did you understand the names of the two doctors? 

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Light and Dr. Reznick. 

Mr. Wood. The question I asked you, are either of those people now 
or have they ever been patients of yours ? 

Dr. Sperling. Were I to differentiate between patients, or people 
and names who are or who are not my patients, I would be violating 
a confidence of those people who are my patients, if I was to say or 
claim the privilege, because a Congressman 

Mr. Wood. I guess I get your point. Then we can ask you to 
answer the question counsel asked you. 

Mr. Tavenner. To simplify matters, I will ask the question in an- 
other way. Have you ever been a member of the medical branch of 
the Communist Party in Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Sperling. Mr. Tavenner, I decline to answer that question and 
I shall decline to answer similar questions on the following grounds, 
and I will not take up the committee's time. I think the bases have 
been very well stated by many professional people who have been wit- 
nesses and who have appeared before this committee. And so I will 
state them very briefly, which are that I feel it would be a violation 
of my right and my duty as a citizen under our Constitution, and I 
value that very highly, and I point out to the committee that I have 
been making this decision not to answer the question, weighing what- 
ever possibilities I could to see or to do something constructive to 
achieve the same purpose which I hope that you have in mind, and I do, 
to support our democratic procedures and our democratic institutions. 

It is with regret that I have come to take this position of declining 
to answer that question, feeling that I would violate my rights and 
the rights of the people not to give their own opinions, beliefs, thoughts, 
or associations under compulsion without their free will and knowledge 
thereof to this committee, and I feel that the restriction of freedom 
of expression of ideas and my own personal experience has been chiefly 
in the field of science, which I have had particular experience to 
recognize the stultification of science and what harm results from 
that to the mass of the peorue when that is so done, that I cannot bring 
myself to answering this question under the first amendment. 

And I further state that under the fifth amendment I also decline 
to answer this question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Sperling. Mr. Tavenner, it is difficult for me to understand the 
import of this question for the reason that I have just stated and it is 
my understanding that it is the purpose of this committee to obtain 



4156 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

information and I have just stated that I shall decline to give that 
information for the reasons stated and so I cannot come to believe 
that this intention that you have expressed is valid, and otherwise you 
could not, it seems to me, being a reasonable man, ask this and subse- 
quent questions of this nature. This can only mean that you have the 
intention to deprive me of my right to a livelihood by the publicity 
involved, and therefore I feel that I shall decline in addition to the 
reasons previously stated to do so under the ninth and tenth amend- 
ments and under the provisions of the Constitution that I feel I shall 
be deprived of my livelihood without due recourse to law. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 

Party? 

Dr. Sperling. The answer is the same as previously stated for the 
same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Walter. Did you identify yourself? 

Mr. Cohn. I did, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. I think I would like to ask the doctor one question, 
which I feel is basic, Doctor. I think that you said just a minute ago 
that it is difficult for me to understand the import of this question. 
This would only mean that you would deprive me of my livelihood. 
Do you remember stating substantially that within the last minute? 

Dr. Sperling. I meant the purpose of the question. 

Mr. Doyle. Yes ; the purpose of the question. 

Well, now, I ask you as one citizen to another, what suggestion 
or recommendation have you to make to this committee in its respon- 
sibility to Congress and therefore to the people of the Nation, because 
Congress is the creation of all of the people of America — this com- 
mittee has been assigned under Public Law 601 to investigate sub- 
versive and un-American propaganda activities. At this junction in 
our work we are investigating where there are subversive activities 
within Communist Party cells in America, and that happens to be 
the present level on which we are working. And we work on other 
levels, too. That is not only the Communist Party, but certain other 
groups or organizations in America, and so it is not limited to just 
the Communist Party. I want to make that clear to you. 

But we have the responsibility under Public Law 601 of investigat- 
ing subversive activities wherever we find them. Now, the law so 
expressly says to us to use the subpena where we feel it is necessary, 
and our experience has proven to us that the best way and the most 
efficient way to get factual and honest- to- God facts and the truth of a 
situation is to put people in the main under a subpena under authority 
of Congress. 

Now, you have been subpenaed, haven't you ? 

Dr. Sperling. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, we did not enjoy subpenaing you any more than 
we have enjoyed subpenaing any American citizen but it was reported 
to us, I think it was reported to us by two doctors under oath, by the 
wa}f, in public session, by the way, that you were a member of the 
Communist Party medical cell in this area. 

Now, we are making an investigation, and we don't want to hurt 
anybody, and you would probably, you know it is no physical pleasure 
or satisfaction for us to sit here and do this. And I have asked two 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4157 

other distinguished men in medicine, I think two, to give me their rec- 
ommendations how we should go about getting information of what 
the Communist Party membership in the medical profession or any 
other level of experience in the Los Angeles area was doing, in its 
subversive activities. If you were on this committee, Doctor, and a 
Congressman, with your training, say, and you gave up your profes- 
sional training for a few years in medicine like some of us have in law 
and other things for a few years, and you were assigned to this com- 
mittee, how would you go 'about investigating subversive activities 
and propaganda in the medical profession in the Los Angeles area 
if Congress asked you to? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Doyle. I am asking now to you constructively, Doctor, because 
we are charged with making recommendations to Congress, to all of 
Congress, and Congress represents all of the American people,- in- 
cluding you and me. How shall we go about it if we are not going 
about it right ? 

Dr. Sperling. I am no expert in this field, but I shall try to give 
you a few impressions that I havepf the value. 

Mr. Doyle. What proceeding shall we take, and don't find fault 
with the committee again, you have given us the fault-finding part, 
and now forget the fault-finding part, Doctor, and give us the 
constructive part. 

Dr. Sperling. It is my impression that we are engaged in a world- 
wide struggle on the field of ideas, and particularly of course we are 
upholding our own democratic ideas, ideals, and institutions, and the 
reports that I read, people like Mr. Weir, and Mr. Hoover, they come 
back and say that we are losing on the world front in this battle of 
ideas, and the battle for men's minds. And I think that this com- 
mittee should try to understand and consider why we are losing the 
battle for democracy today in the world front. I think that if you 
look closely at that, you will see that there is a lack of carrying into 
effect, into action, many of our beliefs, and one of those is a demon- 
stration here, of people at great cost and sacrifice to themselves have 
gotten up and have stood on the first amendment to try to support and 
uphold this battle of free exchange of ideas, of beliefs, of scientific, re- 
ligious, or political, regardless of whether we approve or disapprove 
of them. This was the ferment from which our own country grew, 
and this I think is something which we should never be afraid of. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, Doctor, let me interrupt, and I appreciate your ob- 
servation, but we are aware of those problems, and we are studying 
them at least as much as any of the people in this room are. But 
what I mean is, you know what procedure we took, and we took the 
procedure of subpenaing you, sir, and we took the procedure of putting 
you under the authority of Congress to ask you to come here and tes- 
tify. We have been informed that you were a member of a Com- 
munist medical cell, and we hoped that you might come and tell us 
frankly as an American citizen in our investigation that you might 
help us, sir. You stood conscientiously, you say, upon these amend- 
ments, and that is all right. We want the American citizens when 
they can do it conscientiously in good faith to stand on their constitu- 
tional rights, always. We are always glad to see counsel here advising 
on constitutional rights in good faith. 



4158 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

But what process should we take in investigation? Now, do not 
get into the field then of philosophy, again, but tell us what steps 
should we take to investigate subversive activities wherever they are. 

Dr. Sperling. I believe that is just the step you should take, it is to 
investigate subversive activities, and not ideas, and not propaganda, 
and not any exchange or refusal to exchange opinions or beliefs, and 
that is a field where you should investigate where it actually takes 
place, but whether the legally authorized agencies of Government are 
or are not doin<r their job. 

Mr. Doyle. Doctor, with this one thing then I will not hold you 
away from your professional office any longer. 

Dr. Sperling. I have been held away for several clays. 

Mr. Doyle. Some of the folks are still sitting with us to get the 
benefit of the hearing here. 

Dr. Sperling. You asked me if I had any constructive ideas to give 
and I am quite willing to cooperate with the committee in every way 
to give that. 

Mr. Doyle. Let me state this one thing to you, then, because ap- 
parently we don't have time to go into it as fully as I would like 
to sometimes with you, as a fellow citizen. We cannot get into the 
field of investigating the activities of a known Communist if he is un- 
willing to say to us, "I am a Communist, but" unless we subpena that 
Communist and question him as to his activities. We are not trying 
to interfere with your thoughts, sir, but we do feel that as an American 
citizen you should recognize the problem of the United States Con- 
gress in conscientiously investigating. In other words, we are asking 
you if you are a member of a Communist cell, for instance, and if 
you said "Yes," we would ask you what are the activities of that cell, 
you see, and now that is what we are getting at. It is pot to interfere 
with your thinking, but it is to ask what your activities and again I 
want to be impersonal about it, I am not going to assume that you are 
a Communist for the purpose of this question. But we call Com- 
munists in, or people we believe are Communists and ask, are you 
a member of such and such a cell, and they say, "I refuse to answer be- 
cause," and that closes the door under the Constitution to our going 
into it further. 

Now, if you said "Yes", we then would say, well, "what are the 
activities of that cell," and it is not as to what you think as a mat- 
ter of thought, but what activities do you participate in, and how do 
you function. 

Dr. Sperling. This is one point I don't understand, and by what 
right do you operate to investigate activities if there are activities 
which are illegal then we have agencies of the Government. 

Mr. Doyle. And 

Dr. Sperling. But that is an executive branch of the Government, 
and that is not the legislative, unless I am completely mistaken. 

Mr. Doyle. We are not an administrative agency, but we are an arm 
of the United States Congress. 

Dr. Sperling. But that is the point, the point was made here re- 
peatedly that you are not doing this, investigating such activities of 
which no one has stated, whether friendly or unfriendly witness, that 
they saw anything of a subversive or violent nature. Then I don't 
understand. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4159 

Mr. Wood. Would you permit me to ask one question ? If you were 
in the judicial proceeding instead of the legislative proceeding, would 
you answer that question that was asked you? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Sperling. I decline to answer that question because it is hypo- 
thetical, and that is just the point, that this committee is assuming. 

Mr. Wood. I just asked you, and you differentiated. 

Mr. Doyle. Can I make one statement to the doctor, and not in the 
form of a question. I could not help but notice that you were evi- 
dently proud, and I will compliment you on having that just pride, to 
volunteer the long list of professional groups that you are a member 
of, and I know those groups have certain philosophies in their think- 
ing, and I know that men in medicine by their training and by their 
education think along certain lines, in science, and literature, and art 
and economics and other things. You volunteered to us that informa- 
tion with a great deal of pride, and I could not help but notice that. 
And I could not help but notice that when our counsel asked you if 
you were a member of the Communist Party, you claimed your con- 
stitutional privilege under the Constitution. 

Now, why do you speak with pride about all of the professional 
groups that you are a member of in medicine, because they also think 
and they also propagandize, and they also have activities, but why do 
you speak with pride of those, but the minute, sir, when asked as to 
this other group, you claim the constitutional privilege? Why do 
you do that ? 

Dr. Sperling. On two grounds, sir : One, as I understand the whole 
basis of our constitutional structure, it is that these rights belong to 
the people of which I am one representative, and the people have 
given Congress and other branches of the Government certain powers, 
and all other powers are reserved to themselves. One of these rights 
which have been reserved is the right to express or not express my 
opinion voluntarily, and not under compulsion. For that reason I 
can state certain things, and certain affiliations with groups, and not 
others. 

For another reason, you have not subpenaed people in these organi- 
zations before this committee, and subjected them to the kind of pub- 
licity which deprives those individuals of their very livelihood, where- 
as you have for their so-called political affiliations or suspected poli- 
tical affiliations. This is a very real fact to face, and all of these men 
who have come here and have stood on the first, have been very con- 
scientious people who have sacrificed their livelihood in order to 
demonstrate their belief and faith. 

Mr. Doyle. May I say this one thing further, briefly, in reply to 
your analysis, and I appreciate your giving it to me even though I 
may differ with you, and it is your expert opinion. 

Dr. Sperling. We certainly are entitled to differences and that is 
the very essence of scientific exchange of ideas. 

Mr. Doyle. That is correct, and that is why I am imposing upon 
you and my committee members and the others to get the benefit of 
your thoughts. May I say this to you, that we did not hesitate to 
subpena these lawyers merely because they happened to be lawyers, 
and we didn't hesitate to subpena you brilliant men in medicine simply 
because you happened to be in medicine, and we do not hesitate to 



4160 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

subpena members of labor unions or leaders of labor unions merely 
because they happen to be labor union leaders, and we do not hesitate 
to subpena anyone merely because they happen to be members of cer- 
tain groups. But one conclusion I make, Doctor, is when you vol- 
untarily supplied the information that you were a member of such 
and such a professional group which we know have philosophies and 
thinking, then you close the door and refuse to tell us about whether or 
not you are a member of the Communist Party, and I have one con- 
clusion that I have come to, that by and large most people who claim 
that privilege, and I am not saying you do, sir, but by and large most 
people who claim that privilege are at the very time they claim it 
members of the Communist Party which we are trying to investigate 
in good faith. 

I am not saying that everyone is, or any specific person, but by and 
large my experience in the committee is from what I have learned 
that most of the men that claim the privilege, and therefore there is 
a big question mark in my mind, always, is this man or that man 
claiming the privilege in good faith, or is he not. Is he closing the 
door toward a congressional committee getting at subversive activi- 
ties, which is the only thing we are after. 

Dr. Sperling. May I respond to the remark? 

Mr. Wood. If you will be brief, please, sir. This exchange has 
consumed 25 minutes already. 

Mr. Doyle. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. 

Dr. Sperling. By training in the medical profession, we try to build 
♦people up to stand on their feet and not to tear them down, when you, 
and I think you have legally and very correctly stated your impression, 
you are entitled to those. But when as a Congressman and in this 
committee you state that, this is broadcast to the public, and the public 
draws inferences which harm everyone that by any possible association 
can be smeared with that red paint. That is the danger of this kind 
of question. 

Mr. Wood. Do you not think, though, Doctor, that that possibility 
of injury to the witness could be very easily obviated if a truthful 
answer were made to the question ? 

Dr. Sperling. Let me say that to save the one at the expense of the 
many, and the expense of the individual's conscience and right of which 
the very fundamental philosophy behind our Constitution means to 
preserve, unto the least of them, and that is good Christian and good 
American and good democratic philosophy. 

Mr. Wood. If that is the basis on which the answers have been made 
here, for the past 3 days, all I can say is there are a lot of very un- 
selfish people in this world. 

Dr. Sperling. We are entitled to our differences. 

Mr. Wood. Is there any question ? 

Mr. Jackson. Doctor, I believe you quoted, subject to your correc- 
tion, that we are today engaged in a battle of ideas. And that we are 
losing the battle of ideas. Do you think that our loss in the battle of 
ideas on the world front has been speeded in any way by the theft of 
thousands of documents from the War, State, and Navy Departments 
by Soviet agents? 

Dr. Sperling. Of course, Congressman Jackson, this implies some 
hypothesis that I don't know, whether it is proven or not. I will say 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4161 

as one who has some knowledge scientifically, when you refer in- 
directly to stealing atomic secrets 

Mr. Jackson. Not necessarily, fleet movements, ship movements, 
and not necessarily scientific information, but information which 
would be of great value to a potential foe. 

Dr. Sperling. The continual answer of the body of American scien- 
tists that there was no secret to the atomic bomb, and there was nothing 
to be stolen, and I would like to point out, if I may, in answer to 
your question, that this kind of steadily widening of the differences 
between ourselves and the Soviet Union was predicted by a member 
of the Cabinet back in 1946, when we took the road to this present 
course of secrecy, and of antagonism, not to say it wouldn't be difficult 
to get together, but I think that we all must explore now every avenue 
to narrow the differences so that we can avert this horrible destruction 
which will come if we continue along these lines of warfare. 

Mr. Jackson. That is a very high-minded statement, and I am in 
large part in agreement with you, but it is not responsive to my ques- 
tion. Do you think that we have been handicapped as a Nation, have 
our defenses been handicapped by the theft of secret documents by 
Soviet agents from the files of our agencies and departments? 

Dr. Sperling. I couldn't know those facts and I wouldn't depend 
on that. I have no military information. 

Mr. Jackson. Let me tell you that a document is marked "Top 
secret" because it is presumed to be information it is only for those 
in the department or agency directly concerned, and that a theft 
of a confidential or top-secret document, and its subsequent pho- 
tographing and transmittal to an embassy of the Soviet power is some- 
thing more than the evidence of boyish precociousness. It is a very 
dangerous situation which has been going on, and it is one of the rea- 
sons why this committee, not the judicial, and not the executive branch 
of the Government, but the legislative branch of Government, and the 
House Committee on Un-American Activities was largely responsible 
for sending Alger Hiss to prison.' I have no further questions. 

Mr. Wood. Any further questions? 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Wood. Any reason why the witness should not be excused ? 

Doctor, I express my appreciation for your kindness. 

Dr. Sperling. Thank you, very sincerely. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Walter Kempler. 

Mr. Wood. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn ? Do you 
solemnly swear the evidence you shall give the subcommittee shall be 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Dr. Kempler. I do. 

Mr. Wood. Have a seat. 

Mr. Neusom. This witness requests of the committee that the pho- 
tographers take their pictures and allow him to testify without inter- 
ruption. 

Mr. Wood. Any pictures you desire to make will please be made now, 
and I believe the counsel are those same counsel as heretofore, with the 
exception of the last witness. 

Mr. Neusom. That is correct. 



4162 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

TESTIMONY OF DR. WALTER KEMPLER, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, DANIEL G. MARSHALL, THOMAS G. NEUSOM, AND 
ROBERT W. KENNY 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Dr. Kempler. Walter Kempler. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name? 

Dr. Kempler. K-e-m-p-1-e-r. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Doctor? 

Dr. Kempler. In 1923, in New York City. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now resident of Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Kempler. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been in Los Angeles as a 
resident ? 

Dr. Kempler. Since 1947. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

Dr. Kempler. Physician. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you practiced medicine in Los 
Angeles ? 

Dr. Kempler. Since 1948. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state briefly what your scholastic training 
has been for your profession ? 

Dr. Kempler. Yes. First, I was taught the principles of a good 
citizen by my parents and I learned in school, grade school, in New 
York and high school in Texas, the Constitution and its significance. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you confine the rest of your answer please, to 
my question, as to what your scholastic training has been? 

Dr. Kempler. I graduated with bachelor of science and the sciences 
from Texas College of Mines and Metallurgy, and from the University 
of Texas, and I received my M. D. degree. 

Mr. Tavenner. How-long, I believe you stated that you have prac- 
ticed in Los Angeles since 1948? 

Dr. Kempler. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. Doctor, have you any knowledge of the existence of 
a medical branch of the Communist Party in Los Angeles? 

Dr. Kempler. I shall decline to answer that question or any similar 
question on the following grounds : I shall try to be brief. First of 
all, as a responsible citizen, I think to acquiesce to a question of this 
sort would capitulate what I know and understand of the first amend- 
ment of the Constitution. It would in essence be the issuance of think- 
ing permits by this committee. I further decline to answer this 
question from my understanding that to condone this committee would 
be the same as aiding this committee in its destruction of human lives, 
and I mean American human lives. The activities of the Un-Ameri- 
can Activities Committee have made employment in atomic energy 
research so undesirable that the full-time personnel are reaching a 
dangerously low level. 

Mr. Wood. You are reaching argument now, and you are in a field of 
argumentation. Please state your reasons. 

Dr. Kempler. This is one of my reasons, and a very important reason 
to me. It is that the Atomic Energy Commission is in the field of re- 
search in cancer, one of our leading positions in solving this problem. 

Mr. Wood. I have held that that is argumentative, Doctor, and that 
is not a proper answer to the question that is asked of you. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4163 

Dr. Kempler. As a further ground I think that political supervision 
in the field of medicine has in the past and cannot help but reduce 
medical standards by its very nature, that no politician is qualified to 
cure heart disease or polio, or cancer or any other disease, and that they 
have no business in the profession attacking professionals, denying the 
right of patients to medical care of their choosing, doctors who are 
qualified to give this medical care on medical grounds. As a result of 
this we have seen patients 

Mr. Wood. You are in argument again, now. 

Dr. Kempler. I further decline on the grounds of the fifth amend- 
ment, the whole fifth amendment, the ninth and tenth amendments 
which were inserted in the Constitution to protect the sovereign rights 
of the individual. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party, 
Doctor ? 

Dr. Kempler. The fact that you ask this question after my previous 
answer to me smacks of some sinister intent on your part. 

Mr. Wood. Doctor, please answer the question, or decline to answer 
it for the reason that you desire, without expressing your opinion of 
the motives. 

Dr. Kempler. Can you explain to me the basis for asking a question 
like this, after I have just answered a similar question? 

Mr. Wood. To try to solicit information from you. 

Dr. Kempler. I have just advised the counsel that I would not in 
any way aid this committee in invading the minds of the American 
people. 

Mr. Wood. We understood that. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Kempler. I shall decline to answer that question on the same 
grounds, keeping in mind the fact that in claiming this privilege I 
have not in any way admitted any guilt. This, I believe, is in the 
appellate court decision of last year. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party ? 

Dr. Kempler. The same question and the same answer and the same 
grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Wood. Are there any questions? Any reason why the witness 
shouldn't be excused from further attendance on the committee? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Wood. It is so ordered. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I will call Dr. Arthur Lishner. 

Mr. LisiiNERr I wish to correct that. I don't happen to be a doctor 
but I am very happy to be associated with the doctors that have ap- 
peared here. 

Mr. Wood. You swear that the evidence you shall give this sub- 
committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Lishner. I do. 

I would like to have all pictures taken now and not during testimony, 
if you please. 

Mr. Wood. That will be done. 



4164 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR LISHNER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, 
DANIEL G. MARSHALL, THOMAS G. NEUSOM, AND ROBERT W. 
KENNY 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. Lishner. Arthur Lishner. 

Mr. Tavenner. Let the record show you are represented by the same 
counsel as the former witness. 

Mr. Lishner. Very able counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born? 

Mr. Lishner. In the city of Chicago, 111. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a resident of Los Angeles ? 

Mr. Lishner. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Lishner. I have lived in Los Angeles approximately 30 years, 
a year or two more or less. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession? 

Mr. Lishner. My profession is that of a pharmacist, registered 
pharmacist. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in work as a phar- 
macist in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Lishner. Approximately 20 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. What has been your training? 

Mr. Lishner. I graduated from public school system in Los An- 
geles, and a graduate of the University of Southern California, School 
of Pharmacy. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever attend a Communist workers' school ? 

Mr. Lishner. Is that the question? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Lishner. I would decline to answer that question on the follow- 
ing grounds: In My Day, that is because you have named a political 
organization that you have listed in your book and I notice in reading 
through the list of organizations that you have listed there a number 
of allegedly Communist organizations, and many of those organiza- 
tions were gleaned from the lists in California specifically, from the 
list of Jack Tenney, Un-American Activities Committee, the Califor- 
nia State Un-American Activities Committee headed by Jack B. Ten- 
ney, and I think by this time everyone should be aware of what Mr. 
Tenney is, and now the vice presidential candidate on the Fascist 
Party. 9 

Mr. Wood. You are in the field of argument. 

Mr. Lishner. I think that is a valid argument. 

Mr. Wood. I am holding that it is argumentative, and it is not 
proper answer to the question. 

Mr. Lishner. I will continue, because I believe that this is a viola- 
tion of my rights of trying to somehow connect me or make me guilty 
by association, and under the first amendment to the Constitution 
the right of freedom of speech and the right of association and the 
right of assembly and the right of press is guaranteed. 

I also further decline to answer this question on the grounds of the 
ninth and tenth amendments and the grounds of the fifth amend- 
ment, and I say that in full meaning of the full text of the fifth 
amendment. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4165 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Lishner. I think this is pretty much the same question, and 
this is one prescription which I will not help compound, the question 
of feeding this committee and helping them 

Mr. Wood. What is your answer ? 

Mr. Lishner. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Lishner. I must refuse to answer on the same grounds and the 
additional grounds that I will not supply the adrenalin to this com- 
mittee that so many informers have supplied in the past to keep this 
committee alive and I refuse on the same grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Walter. I am quite certain that it is the attitude of the people 
such as you are that has kept this committee alive. It has made it 
necessary for the committee to continue in its work. 

Mr. Lishner. Do you believe it is the duty of this committee in 
keeping itself alive by causing these people to lose jobs, and I want 
to tell you something that I don't think that Mr. Doyle, particularly, 
would like to hear. I was sitting back there the day before } T esterday 
and I heard a man say — because the scavengers that follow in the wake 
of this committee, is a horrible part of this committee 

Mr. Walter. We reached the same conclusion. 

Mr. Lishner. — "I caused Reuben Ship to lose his job in New York. 
I found out where he was working, and I don't know who Reuben 
Ship is, and he was discharged." And this man followed all of the 
way to New York, no official of this committe, and he had his job 
taken away from him. 

Mr. Wood. Let us confine ourselves to the questions asked you, 
without quoting people that you don't even know the names of. 

Mr. Wood. Any more questions ? 

Mr. Velde. What is your place of business here ? 

Mr. Lishner. It is in Los Angeles. 

Mr. Velde. Do you have more than one ? 

Mr. Lishner. No ; I don't 

Mr. Velde. That is all. 

Mr. Jackson. I have no questions. 

Mr. Wood. Any reason why the witness should not be excused ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Wood. That is all. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Wood. The committee will stand in recess until 10 o'clock Mon- 
day morning. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Wood. This is evidence being taken purely for the accommoda- 
tion of the witness and his counsel. The subcommittee to hear this 
consists of Mr. Walter, Mr. Velde, and myself as chairman. 

Will you stand and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the 
evidence you shall giye this subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Dr. Druckman. I do. 

I would like to state that I appreciate this courtesy. 

Mr. Tavenner. Let the record show that the witness is represented 
by the same counsel as the former witnesses. 



4166 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

TESTIMONY OF DR. S. SIDNEY DRUCKMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 
COUNSEL, ROBERT W. KENNY, DANIEL G. MARSHALL, AND 
THOMAS G. NETJSOM 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, Doctor ? 
Dr. Druckman. S. Sidney Druckman. 
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born? 
Dr. Druckman. I was born in New York City in the year 1918, on 
February 18. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a resident of Los Angeles % 

Dr. Druckman. Yes ; I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long did you live in Los Angeles ? 

Dr. Druckman. Since 1935. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

Dr. Druckman. I am a physician. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you practiced medicine in Los 

A^H^eleS I 

Dr. Druckman. I have practiced medicine in Maywood, Calif., a 
suburb of the county, a part of the county, since 1944. 

Mr. Tavenner. Briefly, what has been your scholastic training lor 

vour prof ession ? . , r __. 

* Dr. Druckman. I attended the public schools in New York City, 
received my bachelor of science degree at the University of Arkansas, 
and masters degree in science at the University of California in Los 
Angeles, and my degree in medicine at the College of Osteopathic 
Physicians and Surgeons in Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. Doctor, the committee is investigating the extent 
and the character of an alleged organization known as the Medical 
Branch of the Communist Party, in Los Angeles, said to have been 
limited in membership to members of the medical profession. I would 
like to ask you if you know of the existence of such an organization 
and if you do I desire to ask you regarding what you know of its 
formation and its purposes. m  

Dr. Druckman. I shall be brief and to the point. I decline to 
answer that question. The views expressed by various predecessors 
on the witness stand could not be possibly said by me with any further 
degree of clarity, and I wish to state that I am in full accord with 
those views and principles and I could do no other, to take no other 
view in true conscience as an American, of which I am very proud, 
and therefore I decline to answer that question on the basis of the 
first and fifth and ninth and tenth amendments to the Constitution. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Druckman. I give you the same answer, the same reasons, on 

the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member ot the Communist 

Party? 

Dr. Druckman. The same answer, on the same grounds. 
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4167 

Mr. Wood. Mr. Walter, any questions ? 

(Representative Donald L. Jackson entered the hearing room.) 

Mr. Wood. There is no reason why the witness should not be ex- 
cused ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Wood. It is so ordered. 

(Whereupon, at 4 : 20 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 10 a. m., 
Monday, October 6, 1952.) 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES AMONG PROFESSIONAL (iROUPS 
IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 



MONDAY, OCTOBER 6, 1952 

United States House or Representatives, 
Subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities, 

Los Angeles, Calif. 
PUBLIC hearing 

The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met, 
pursuant to recess, at 10 a. m., in room 518, Federal Building, Hon. 
Clyde Doyle (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Committee members present : Representatives Clyde Doyle (pre- 
siding) and Donald L. Jackson. 

Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel ; William 
A. Wheeler, investigator, and John W. Carrington, clerk. 

Mr. Doyle v Let the record show that the subcommittee duly con- 
stituted by Chairman Wood under Public Law 601 is here, with Com- 
mittee Member Jackson of California and Committee Member Clyde 
Doyle of California, with Congressman Doyle acting as subcom- 
mittee chairman. 

I think it appropriate again to say that this subcommittee will not 
tolerate any applause or disturbance either in approval or adverse 
to any witness' testimony. I ask the officers, .if such occurs, to cor- 
dially invite the person causing it to leave the room. 

I wish to say, also, that the subcommittee will cooperate with the 
witnesses and their counsel so that the testimony can be put on as 
expeditiously as possible. 

If any of the witnesses have prepared statements, I am sorry but 
we will not have time to hear the witnesses read them by they are 
invited to file them with us. 

I will reiterate again what our distinguished chairman, John Wood, 
said last week when he was here : That we will not have time in justice 
to the other witnesses to allow any witness to take more than his reason- 
able share of time ; and, therefore, I will not be in a position to allow 
the witnesses to argue their testimony. 

I will go the limit to allow any and every witness to give his reasons, 
but not arguments in support thereof. I am sure that that would meet 
with the approval of counsel. 

Are you ready, Mr. Tavenner? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. I would like to call Dr. Barker. 

Mr. Doyle. Dr. Barker, will you please raise your right hand and 
state after me, "I solemnly swear the testimony I will give this com- 
mittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so help me God." Do you so swear? 

S5008— 52— pt. 4 5 4169 



4170 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Dr. Barker. I so swear. 

Mr. Doyle. Will you be seated ? 

TESTIMONY OF ONER B. BARKER, JR., ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 

COUNSEL, THOMAS G. NETJSOM 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please? 

Dr. Barker. Oner B. Barker, Jr. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the first name ? 

Dr. Barker. O-n-e-r. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Neusom. He is ; Thomas G. Neusom. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside, Doctor ? 

Dr. Barker. I live in Los Angeles ; at the present time I am in the 
Army. 

Mr. Tavenner. I am sorry ; we can't quite hear you. 

Dr. Barker. My permanent home is in Los Angeles. At the present 
time I am in the Army. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where are you stationed in the Army? 

Dr. Barker. Camp Roberts. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been stationed at Camp Roberts ? 

Dr. Barker. Since May of 1951. 

Mr. Tavenner. In what rank or position are you ? 

Dr. Barker. I am a captain. 

Mr. Tavenner. What rank or position do you hold tliere? 

Dr. Barker. Captain in the Medical Corps. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been an officer in the Medical 
Corps? 

Dr. Barker. Approximately 21 months. 

Mr. Tavenner. Would you raise your voice a little? 

Dr. Barker. Approximately 21 months. 

Mr. Tavenner. Prior to that time, were you in the Army ? 

Dr. Barker. I was not. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

Dr. Barker. Medical profession. 

Mr. Tavenner. What has been your scholastic training for the 
practice of medicine? 

Dr. Barker. I went to grammar school and high school and the 
University of Los Angeles and Medical Corps at Howard University 
in Washington, D. C. 

Mr. Tavenner. I believe I asked you this question before, but I am 
uncertain as to what your answer was : Were you in the Army in 
any capacity prior to 21 months before this date? 

Dr. Barker. Yes; I was. I was in the ASTP during part of my 
medical -school training. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us what those initials mean? 

Dr. Barker. Army specialist-training program. 

Mr. Tavenner. During what period of time were you in that pro- 
gram, or did you take part in that program? 

Dr. Barker. From 1942 to 1945 ; the exact dates I don't remember. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you explain more in detail what that program 
consisted of ? 

Dr. Barker. At the time I was in medical school. having been ad- 
mitted in 1942 during the Second World War, and the Army at that 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4171 

time was taking over many of the students who were qualified and 
could qualify as soldiers, and taking over their education, I was one 
of those students. 

Mr. Tavenner. And then part of your education, at least, was paid 
for by the Government? 

Dr. Barker. Part of it was. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long a period of time was it that you were in 
that school or received the benefits of that program? 

Dr. Barker. Twenty-one months. 

Mr. T wenner. Over what period of time did that consist ; was that 
the last, 21 months ? 

Dr. Barker. It was the latter 21 months of the total period ; that is, 
I believe it was June of 1942 to September 1945. I am not clear about 
those dates. 

Mr. Tavenner. The approximate dates are satisfactory. 

Have you been continuously in the armed services since 1945 to the 
present time? 

Dr. Barker. I have not. 

Mr. Tavenner. What period of time were you not in the military 
service ? 

Dr. Barker. The Army requested that I need not be in the services 
as a Eeserve officer since, as I understood it, at the time, Negro doctors 
were not being used during the period from 1945 after the end of the 
war — up until, I believe, 1948 or 1949. So, they asked me to resign my 
commission. 

Mr. Tavenner. But you were held in reserve during that period? 

Dr. Barker. I was not. 

Mr. Tavenner. As a Eeserve officer? 

Dr. Barker. I was not. 

Mr. Tavenner. You were not ? 

Dr. Barker. No. They requested that I resign because Negro offi- 
cers were not being used. 

Mr. Tavenner. And I heard you say that the first time. 

Did you get an official notification of any such thing? If you have, 
I would like for you to present it. 

Dr. Barker. I have no official notice of »it at hand. 

Mr. Tavenner. What did you say? Will you speak a little louder, 
please ? 

Dr. Barker. I have no official notice at hand. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, do you have any anyplace? 

Dr. Barker. No ; I don't have anything. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever have any such official notice? 

Mr. Neusom. Excuse the witness for a moment, please. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Barker. What kind of official notice are you referring to? 

Mr. Tavenner. I am asking you what kind of official notice you 
received. 

Dr. Barker. The official notice that I received was to resign. 

Mr. Tavenner. There was nothing on that 

Dr. Barker. Asking me for my resignation. 

Mr. Tavenner. But there was nothing connected with that official 
notice that indicated to you in any way that you were asked to resign 
because of your color or your race ; was there ? 

Dr. Barker. Not on the official notice ; no, sir. 



4172 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, many doctors of the Negro race 
were retained in the service ; were they not ? 

Dr. Barker. Not to my knowledge at that time. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now, during the period from 1945 to 1948, did you 
engage in the practice of medicine in Los Angeles? 

Dr. Barker. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Tavenner. During the course of the hearings on the subject of 
the organization of Communist Party cells within the professions, 
you were identified by Dr. Louise Light as being a member of the 
medical branch of the Communist Party in Los Angeles. Is that true, 
or rather is it true that you were a member of the medical branch of 
the Communist Party in Los Angeles? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Dr. Barker. I decline to answer this question on the basis of the 
privilege granted me by the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. Upon your return to Army service, did you sign 
Forms 98 and 98-A, which contain a question as to whether or not you 
had ever been a member of the Communist Party? 

Dr. Barker. I decline to answer this question for the same reasons 
as before. 

Mr. Tavenner. At the time you assumed your position as a captain 
in the Medical Corps at Camp Roberts, were you a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Dr. Barker. Will you repeat the question? 

Mr. Tavenner. The question was : At the time you became captain 
in the Medical Corps at Camp Roberts, were you a member of the 
Communist Party? 

Dr. Barker. Was I a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes; at that time? 

Dr. Barker. I decline to answer that question for the same reason. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Barker. I decline to answer that question for the same reason. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Dr. Barker. I decline to answer that question for the same reason. 

Mr. Doyle. May I ask that you state the reasons in your last answer 
as to why you decline to answer ? I do not think that you gave your 
reasons. 

Mr. Neusom. He stated for the same reasons. If it is not clear, I 
will have him state the answer again. 

Dr. Barker. Under the reasons granted me under the privilege of 
the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Doyle. Have you any questions? 

Mr. Jackson. No. 

Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. Is there any reason why the wit- 
ness should not be excused? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. You are excused. Thank you. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I will call Mr. Leon Turret. 

Mr. Marshall. The witness prefers that he not be photographed 
at all. 

Mr. Doyle. I am wondering, Counsel, if we have a right to exact 
that, and I think that we have a right to exact that he shall not be 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4173 

photographed after he has taken his oath, or while he is testifying. 

Mr. Marshall. We have made the request, but it now appears to 
have become moot, Congressman, but our position is still the same. 

Mr. Doyle. Will you please rise ? You solemnly swear the evidence 
you give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Turret. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF LEON TURRET, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, 
THOMAS G. NEUSOM, AND DANIEL G. MARSHALL 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state your name and the name of 
your counsel, for the record'^ 

Mr. Turret. My name is Leon Turret, T-u-r-r-e-t. 

Mr. Marshall. Counsel are Thomas Neusom and Daniel G. Mar- 
shall. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir. 

Mr. Turret. Leon Turret. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you please spell the last name ? 

Mr. Turret. T-u-r-r-e-t. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ? 

Mr. Turret. I was born in New Jersey on November 3, 1909. 

Mr. Doyle. Just a moment. May I interrupt, please ? 

Let us have the cooperation of the press, and please do not take any 
pictures of any witness after he begins to testify. I am sure that 
is a fair request. 

Mr. Marshall. There is objection from the press row to the rule. 

Mr. Doyle. I mean unless there is some apparent emergency ? 

Mr. Marshall. They anticipate that. 

Mr. Turret. You won't have any trouble with me. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born? I believe you 
have answered that. 

Mr. Turret. You want me to repeat that answer ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No ; if you have answered it, I will take your word 
for it. 

Are you a resident of Los Angeles ? 

Mr. Turret. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a resident of Los Angeles ? 

Mr. Turret. I have resided in Los Angeles since 1942. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

Mr. Turret. I am an attorney duly admitted to the bar of the State 
of California and the State of New York. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in the practice 
of law in California ? 

Mr. Turret. I was admitted to practice before the bar of the State 
of California since 1944. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state briefly what your scholastic 
training has been for your profession ? 

Mr. Turret. I attended grade schools, high school, Columbia Uni- 
versity for my prelaw work, and graduated from the New York Law 
School with an LL. B. degree. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Turret, there has been testimony before this 
committee by Mr. David Aaron, and by Mr. A. Marburg Yerkes, 
identifying you as a member of a cell of the Communist Party in Los 



4174 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Angeles which was confined in its membership to members of the 
legal profession. I want to ask you whether or not you were correctly 
identified as a member of that group, and, if so, to tell the committee 
the circumstances under which it was organized, and its objectives, 
if you know. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Turret. I decline to answer for the following reasons: I be- 
lieve that the committee has no right to delve into my own political 
beliefs or associations. I believe that if I were to answer this question 
I would be committing an illegal act in breaking the meaning and the 
intent of the Bill of Rights as set forth in the first amendment of our 
Constitution, which affords the privilege and the duty of every citi- 
zen to uphold our Constitution, and any attempt on the part of this 
committee to delve into my own thinking processes, and my own asso- 
ciations, will be vehemently objected to here. 

For the further reason that I feel that I shall invoke the privilege 
afforded me by the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution 
not to bear witness against myself, and for the further reasons that 
the question is in violation of the ninth and tenth amendments of the 
United States Constitution, and for all of the reasons aforesaid I 
decline to answer the question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Turret, the Washington Evening Star of Octo- 
ber 30, 1951, contains an advertisement in the form of an open letter 
to the Attorney General of the United States on behalf of four trustees 
of the bail fund of the Civil Rights Congress, who had been sentenced 
to jail for contempt. The advertisement was paid for by contribu- 
tions of the signers, and your name appears as one who signed the 
open letter. Do you recall that? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Turret. I decline to answer for the reasons heretofore given. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you any knowledge concerning the use of bail 
bonds or the collection of funds by the Civil Rights Congress or con- 
tributions for bail-bond purposes ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Turret. I decline to answer for the same reasons heretofore 
given. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Turret. I decline to answer for the reasons heretofore given. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Turret. The same answer for the same reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. On the same grounds ? 

Mr. Turret. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Mr. Jackson? 

Mr. Jackson. I have no questions. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Turret, I would like to ask you one question. Have 
you this morning, as you began to testify, taken any oath in this 
hearing room other than the ordinary oath which is taken by a wit- 
ness in our courts to testify ; I mean "to tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God" ? 
(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Turret. We are a little bit confused, Congressman Doyle, as 
to the meaning of your question, if you will kindly 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4175 

Mr. Doyle. You have not been asked by any member of the com- 
mittee or any investigator on behalf of the committee to take any oath 
exeepting the one that you gave this morning before you began to 
testify; were you? 

Mr. Marshall. May we have the reporter read that ? 

(Question was read by the reporter.) 

Mr. Turrlt. I have not taken any other oath. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, may I say to counsel for the witness — and I say 
to all of the lawyers in the courtroom — a few moments ago there was 
a printed letter over the signatures of certain members of the legal 
profession in the State of California, primarily from Los Angeles. 
I do not have that letter before me, but I received one. In fact, I re- 
ceived half a dozen copies from lawyers and others who had received 
it. That letter expressly charged that the Un-American Activities 
Committee was proposing to put witnesses before it under a different 
and auxiliary or supplemental oath before they began to testify. 

Now, I will insert that in the record of these hearings, and I wish 
to say to any member of the bar here, or any member of the Los An- 
geles bar who signed that letter, and I think some of you are in the 
hearing room, as I recall, that I invite you to make good your state- 
ments in that letter which was pretty well broadcast. That was 
several months ago when it looked as though we would come to Los 
Angeles at that time instead of now. I invite you, and I urge you men 
who signed that letter to make good your statements in that letter 
which was sent through the United States mail. 

Mr. Maroolis. Is this an invitation to anybody, Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. Doyle. Anybody who signed the letter or anyone else who can 
prove that such an oath was asked to be taken by witnesses before 
this committee. 

Mr. Margolis. Everybody before this committee has been  

Mr. Doyle. I am not inviting you at this time. 

Mr. Margolis. I thought you were inviting anybody. 

Mr. Doyle. I am not inviting you at this time. 

Mr. Margolis. I would be glad to answer that question. 

Mr. Turret. Can we take a look at this letter ? 

Mr. Doyle. I do not have the letter at this time. 

You are excused, if there are no other questions. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. At this time, Mr. Chairman, I am in receipt of a 
letter from the American Jewish League Against Communism, Los 
Angeles Chapter, which I should like to have permission to introduce 
into the record in connection with these hearings and some of the 
charges that have been made. 

Mr. Doyle. Without objection it will be included in the record. 

(The letter referred to follows :) 

House Committee on Un-American Activities, 

Los Angeles, Calif. 

Dear Sirs : In his statement before the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities Dr. Alexander Pennes testified that good Jewish tradition not only 
held informers in abhorrence but even denied them burial in hallowed ground. 

Dr. Pennes was following the familiar Communist "line." That line is to 
plant anti-Semitism where it will do tbe most barm and by sowing suspicion 
among religious groups, create disunity and thus weaken the religious forces 
opposed to communism. 

A tragic period in the Jewish past was responsible for this detestation of the 
informer but for reasons far different from those Dr. Pennes led people to 



4176 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

believe. The Jewish Nation was ground under the heel of Roman tyranny. 
Rome had issued an edict forbidding on pain of death the ordination of rabbis 
and teachers and the teaching of religion to Jewish youth. Jews loyal to their 
religion defied the edict. Rome resorted to informers to ferret out and bring 
to their death those who defied a cruel and conscienceless tyrant. Informers 
in league with tyranny were hated and abhorred. 

Jews have always applauded those who did all they could to defeat tyranny. 
The vast majority of American Jews are devoted to their country's cause — 
the cause of truth and freedom. They resent the renegade who presumes to 
speak in the name of Judaism and they abominate apostates who serve the 
cause of Communist tyranny. They heartily approve of the committee's zeal 
in exposing those who seek to undermine American security. 

(Signed) Max J. Merritt, 

Executive Director. 

Mr. Margolis. Mr. Chairman, the other day Mr. Jackson asked that 
no penalties be imposed upon a witness or the wife of a witness who 
had testified, and may I ask that the chairman give assnrance that he 
will make the request that no penalties be imposed upon the witnesses 
that we represent, because of their appearance before the committee, 
and because of their answers, and their testimony before this com- 
mittee. 

Mr. Jackson. May I ask a question in that connection? Have the 
witnesses to whom you refer been identified as members of the Com- 
munist Party under sworn testimony? 

Mr. Margolis. I don't know the answer to that, but is it your posi- 
tion that if they have been so identified, that penalties should be im- 
posed upon them, Mr. Jackson ? 

Mr. Jackson. Not necessarily at all. 

Mr. Margolis. Will you give assurances that you will not ask for 
penalties to be imposed upon them and the fact that you will protect 
them against any penalties which are attempted ? 

Mr. Jackson. I have asked, Mr. Margolis, that no penalties be 
inflicted upon any witness who has appeared before this committee. 

Mr. Margolis. That means you are opposed to the blacklist, Mr. 
Jackson, in Hollywood? 

Mr. Jackson. If, Mr. Margolis, this witness or any other witness 
has a wife who had no knowledge of his association in the Com- 
munist Party, and it is apt that that knowledge, when it becomes pub- 
lic, will result in reprisals against his wife, I shall be very happy 
to make the same statement that I made in connection with Mrs. 
Vinson. 

Mr. Margolis. By that you infer that otherwise you wish penalties 
to be imposed ? 

Mr. Doyle. We will proceed in due course with this hearing at 
this point, please. 

I think, Mr. Stone, I have not asked you to be sworn yet. 

Will you rise. You solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Stone. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF EUGENE R. STONE, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, 
BEN MARGOLIS AND THOMAS G. NEUSOM 

Mr. Doyle. Will you please state your name and the name of your 
counsel ? 

Mr. Stone. My name is Eugene K. Stone, S-t-o-n-e, and the name of 
my counsel is Ben Margolis and Mr. Thomas Neusom. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4177 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Stone? 

Mr. Stone. I was born in Quincy, 111., in 1905. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a resident of Los Angeles? 

Mr. Stone. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Stone. Approximately 27 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation or profession? 

Mr. Stone. I am a writer by profession. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in work as a 
writer ? 

Mr. Stone. I have been engaged as a writer off and on since 1933. 

Mr. Tavenner. Briefly what has been your educational training? 

Mr. Stone. I attended grammar schools in towns in the Middle 
West, such as Quincy, 111., Rock Island, 111., Mark Twain's birthplace, 
Hannibal, Mo., and incidentally, if Mark Twain were alive today, 
he would be very high on your list of subversive ideas in Huckle- 
berry Finn. 

Mr. Doyle. Will you please answer the question and do not vol- 
unteer anything that is immaterial? 

Mr. Stone. My formative education as a result of the churches I 
attended, and the schools I went to, and the friends I played games 
with, and the books I read, and from all of these experiences, I came 
to get a concept of America and it was a very wonderful concept to 
me, and I never thought then that I would be sitting here today de- 
fending that America from a group of men who are trying to destroy 
it. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, Mr. Stone, I wish to say to you that if you repeat 
arguments again, I will strike them from the record. 

Mr. Stone. My further education, I attended Drake University in 
Des Moines, Iowa, for one semester, and I came to Los Angeles, and 
I went to the University of California at Los Angeles, and graduated 
from that university with an A. B. degree. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Stone, there has been testimony before the com- 
mittee by Mr. Vinson, and also by Mr. Marion that there was a Com- 
munist Party cell organized within radio, that they were both mem- 
bers of that cell, and in fact one of them, Mr. Vinson, was the treasurer 
and collected the dues. Mr. Vinson testified he collected Communist 
Party dues from you, as a member of that organization. Mr. Marion 
also identified you as a member. Was that identification true or was 
it false? 

Mr. Stone. I shall of course refuse to answer that question, and I 
would like to state my grounds. 

First, this committee has no right to ask this question because you 
are doing by indirection what Congress is expressly forbidden by the 
Bill of Rights to do directly. 

Second, I must protest the slander of this committee, and its per- 
secution by publicity which will prevent me and has prevented me 
from working in my chosen profession and has blacklisted me, and 
many others, and not only robbed me and these other men and women 
of their livelihood, but it has robbed the American people of the 
cultural contributions that these people might make. 

My third reason is because of the nature of this committee, and it 
is the nature of this committee that has determined my legal position 
here today. I believe that this committee is diametrically opposed to 



4178 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

the interest of the American people. I think that it struggles, des- 
perately, if unsuccessfully, to sabotage just about every honest desire 
and need of the American people, whether it is for peace, for decent 
wages, for a decent life, for a full, real full equality for all Americans 
and not just lip service to this idea, and just about everything that 
has made America the place that we have come to love. 

Now, that I think is a pretty serious charge to make to this com- 
mittee, and I would like to document it, if I may. 

Mr. Doyle. I am not going to permit you to be argumentative. I 
have let you go far in that field, and I see you have notes before you 
and that is all right, but if you get argumentative I will strike it from 
the record and restrict you to your reasons; rather than argument. 

Mr. Stone. By my mere appearance before this committee, Mr. 
Doyle, by the big lie that 3 7 ou have raised, you have equated an unco- 
operative witness with a conspiracy with a foreign power and all sorts 
of other things. I think that I have a right as an American citizen 
who is being slandered here today to briefly state the reasons why I 
do not intend to cooperate with this committee, and that is all I am 
asking of this committee. 

Mr. Doyle. That is what we want you to give us, your fair and 
sound reasons. 

Mr. Stone. I am basing my refusal to cooperate with this com- 
mittee not just on my opinion, but on actual statements that have 
been made by this committee, past and present, and by actions of this 
committee past and present. During the depression when the Gov- 
ernment under Roosevelt which is called the New Deal was trying 
very hard to cope with the real problems of the American people, of 
unemployment, starvation, and hopelessness, it was Mr. Dies of this 
committee who said, "If democratic government- — — " 

Mr. Doyle. Just a moment. Mr. Dies is not a member of this 
committee and has not been for years, and if you insist on being argu- 
mentative, I will strike it from the record, and I think it is only fair 
to tell you so, and now please cooperate that the other witnesses also 
shall have a reasonable time. 

Mr. Stone. I am not taking a long time, and it seems to me that 
this committee must live with its past, unless it repudiates the past. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, Mr. Stone, we are perfectly willing to live with 
ourselves. 

Mr. Stone. Then may I state just a few things? 

Mr. Doyle. I will not permit you to be argumentative and that is a 
fair statement and please cooperate. I want to cooperate with you, 
but we have a heavy day's work ahead of us. 

Mr. Stone. Mr. Dies said 

Mr. Doyle. I will strike it from the record, and I want you to give 
your reasons. 

Mr. Stone. May I discuss it with my counsel ? 

Mr. Doyle. Do not go back on Dies, and Dies is not on this com- 
mittee, and has not been for years. Furthermore, he was never on 
this committee. He was on a temporary committee of Congress, and 
not on this committee that is before you. 

Mr. Stone. By the trick of labeling my testimony argument, you are 
preventing me from stating my honest reasons for not cooperating 
with this committee, and I think the American people are entitled to 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4179 

know why an American is not cooperating with this committee, and I 
ask for that privilege, and I will be very brief if you will stop inter- 
rupting me, Mr. Doyle. These interruptions are taking more time 
than my whole testimony would have taken. 

.Mr. Doyle. I am not going to let you violate the rules of the com- 
mittee, and I do not mean to be discourteous, but I will not permit you 
to violate it, and you might just as well understand it, and that goes for 
every witness while I am subcommittee chairman. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Doyle. I am going to be firm, and I am going to try to be fair. 

Mr. Stone. Well, I must say I think this is a very strange behavior 
for an American legislative body, and if you want to throttle me and 
not give me a chance to state the truth here, I don't know how I can 
be a very good witness. I am basing my legal position and the stand 
I take on this committee is based directly upon the actions, past and 
present, and the past actions have never been repudiated by the present 
committee, and I must claim the right to state my reasons for the 
answer I am giving to this question. 

I will not permit you to use any tactics, Mr. Doyle, which takes away 
my rights as an American. 

Mr. Doyle. I do not intend to, but I intend to observe the rules of 
the committee, and I expect you to do the same. I am not going to 
allow you to quote Dies. Dies was never a member of this duly con- 
stituted committee. 

(Statement by the witness was ordered stricken from the record.) 

Mr. Stone. One of my reasons for not answering the question is 
that the chairman of this committee is from a State in which large 
sections of the people are not allowed their political and economic 
equality because of the color of their skin, and I think that this is 
un-American and I refuse to cooperate with this type of un-Amer- 
icanism. 

Another member of the committee, Congressman Jackson, has con- 
sistently baited the Bill of Rights, and I refuse to be a party to this 
type of attack upon the Constitution. 

Mr. Velde, who is at present a member of this committee, has intro- 
duced a bill in the Congress, a book branding bill, which would make 
Hitler dance in his grave. By this bill, the Librarian of Congress has 
the right to brand any 1 cok that he sees fit as subversive. Now, if there 
is anything American about that, I would like to have this committee 
explain it to me, and in this the sum total is the type of thing which I 
do not intend as a good American to cooperate with you here today. 

Further, this committee, by manufacturing the big lie, has raised 
scare words in America today, the scare words of communism, social- 
ism, radicalism, and that this is a label which can be applied to anything 
that is in the interest of the American people, whether it is a housing 
project which we have just seen here in Los Angeles, when the people 
who want to defeat the housing project did not know how to do it, 
they finally dragged out the old Communist label, and the fact that 
the people of Los Angeles need housing has nothing to do with the issue 
any more, whether or not 

Mr. Doyle. Now, you know this committee has nothing to do with 
that housing problem. You are getting away 

Mr. Stone. I am talking about the kind of atmosphere 



4180 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Doyle. Now, I will strike that sort -of argument out, if you 
insist on taking the time of this committee for immaterial statements 
by you. 

Mr. Stone. By raising these scare words, this committee has made 
it difficult and economically unsound for any American to speak for 
peace or for decent wages, or decent unionism, or for the rights of the 
Negro people or any other minorities, and I claim that this is a very 
un-American procedure. 

Also, in 1949, this committee requested of all of the colleges in the 
United States a list of all of their textbooks in use. Now, I claim 
that this is in effect a form of intimidation and I would like to give 
one of the results of that action. In a survey made by Mr. Kalman 
Segal, a newspaperman, and this survey won the George Polk Me- 
morial Poll for Educational Surveys, a survey of 72 major colleges 
in the United States, it was found that the students in this atmosphere 
have become reluctant to speak out in or out of the classroom on any 
controversial issue, reluctant to join any club, no matter what kind of 
a club it might be — many serio-comic jokes about "the committee will 
get you if you don't watch out," and they shy away from humanitarian 
causes because these causes may be labeled "Communist" or "Social- 
ist," and shy away from any association with the words "peace" and 
"freedon" because these words may be labled "Communist" or "Social- 
ist." 

Now, I submit that this is education for dictatorship and not edu- 
cation for democracy, and I say that this committee has helped very 
much to bring this condition about. 

Mr. Doyle. That is all argumentative, and I will leave it in the 
record, however, but the next time you propagandize along that line, 
I will stop you and strike it from the record. 

Mr. Stone. You may call the truth propaganda if you like. 

Mr. Doyle. I am trying to cooperate with you. 

Mr. Stone. My next reason is on the Bill of Rights, which was 
drawn up by men who were no strangers to tyrannies like this, and 
as a matter of fact, one might think that these men with some miracu- 
lous foresight had drawn up this Bill of Rights with this particular 
committee in mind. The Bill of Rights under the first amendment 
guarantees freedom of speech, and freedom of speech has no sense 
unless it guarantees freedom not to speak, especially when there is an 
unlawful invasion of the mind and conscience as is attempted by this 
committee, and I further refuse to answer this question under all of 
the provisions of the fifth amendment, and under the total concept of 
American democracy as I understand it. 

Those are my reasons. 

Mr. Doyle. Are there any questions ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I have a question. I suggest that 
you direct the witness answer the question. 

Mr. Doyle. May we have the question ? 

Mr. Jackson. It was a long time ago. What is the question, Mr. 
Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I will repeat it as nearly as I can. There was 
testimony before the committee by Mr. Vinson and Mr. Marion that 
there existed a Communist Party cell within the radio industry, and 
that they themselves were members of that cell, and that Mr. Vinson 
was the treasurer and collected dues, and that Mr. Vinson testified he 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4181 

collected dues from you as a Communist Party member of that group, 
and Mr. Marion also identified you as a member of that group. 

My question was whether or not that testimony was true? 

Mr. Stone. Mr. Tavenner, I have already refused to answer the 
question under the provisions of the fifth amendment, and are you 
directing me to answer it anyhow ? 

Mr. Tavenner. If you included the fifth amendment, I didn't hear it. 

Mr. Stone. I did include the fifth amendment, Mr. Tavenner. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Stone. That is the same question, Mr. Tavenner, and I will give 
you the same answer. 

Mr. Jackson. For the same reasons? 

Mr. Stone. Yes, for the same reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party ? 

Mr. Stone. That seems to be the same question, Mr. Tavenner, and 
I will give you the same reasons and the same answer for the same 
reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now executive secretary of the Arts, 
Sciences, and Professions Council ? 

Mr. Stone. Since the organization that you name, Mr. Tavenner, is 
one that has been smeared by this committee, it sounds incredible, but 
I believe there are some 1,000 organizations that this committee has 
smeared, among those which still insist upon their right to uphold the 
Constitution and to work for peace and free culture in this country, I 
refuse to answer the question for all of the reasons that I have pre- 
viously given. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. 

Mr. Jackson. I have no questions. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mr. Stone. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Doyle. The next witness, Mr. Tavenner. 

Mr. Tavenner. The next witness is Lynn Whitney. Is Lynn Whit- 
ney present? 

Mr. Esterman. I just advised the chairman that she would be here 
in a moment. 

Mr. Tavenner. All right. In order to save time, I would like to 
call another witness. I will call Mr. Harmon Alexander. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Alexander, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Alexander. I do. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. Will you have a chair, please. 

TESTIMONY OF HARMON ALEXANDER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS 
COUNSEL, THOMAS G. NEUSOM, WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN, AND BEN 
MARGOLIS 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. Margolis. I thought we had an understanding no pictures would 
be taken while the witness was testifying. 

Mr. Doyle. Will you take the pictures and then do not interrupt the 
witness. 



4182 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Margolis. One of the men from the press box said that there 
was no such understanding, and may we have a statement from the 
Chair of the general principle that when a witness starts testifying no 
pictures will be taken? 

Mr. Jackson. I would be very much opposed to that unless the wit- 
ness himself makes a positive affirmative request in that connection. 

Mr. Doyle. Let us leave it that way, and if the witness makes that 
request, that is the way it will stand. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please — excuse me. 

Mr. Alexander. May I request that the photographers not take 
pictures during the testimony ? 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ? 

Mr. Alexander. Harmon Alexander. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Alexander. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify themselves for the 
record ? 

Mr. Neusom. Thomas G. Neusom, William B. Esterman, and Ben 
Margolis. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Alexander ? 

Mr. Alexander. February 27, 1904, in New York City. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a resident of Los Angeles ? 

Mr. Alexander. I am a resident of Greater Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a resident of California ? 

Mr. Alexander. About 15 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

Mr. Alexander. I am a writer. 

Mr. Tavenner. What briefly has been your training as a writer ? 

Mr. Alexander. Scholastic training, you mean? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mr. Alexander. I was educated in the elementary schools and the 
high schools of- New York City and I am a graduate of New York 
University, in the top third of my class, and I received a bachelor of 
science degree. I was awarded a fellowship and continued my studies 
and I was awarded a master of arts degree. 

I also had a year of law, at Columbia University. 

Mr. Tavenner. In what field of writing are you principally en- 
gaged ? 

Mr. Alexander. Radio. 

Mr. Tavenner. And how long have you been engaged in writing 
in the radio field? 

Mr. Alexander. From sometime around 1930, 1 guess. 

Mr. Tavenner. There has been testimony before this committee 
by Mr. Owen Vinson and by Mr. Paul Marion that there was a cell 
of the Communist Party organized within the radio industry, of 
which they were members. During the course of the testimony, Mr. 
Vinson testified that the Communist Party meetings of this unit were 
held in your home, and you were identified by both of those witnesses 
as having been a member of this group. I would like to ask you if you 
were a member of that group ? 

Mr. Alexander. Standing on my rights under the Constitution, I 
decline to answer that question for the following reasons: First, I 
don't believe the committee has a right to ask the question because 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4183 

under the first amendment of the Constitution it specifically states 
that Congress may not legislate in certain areas, including religion, 
speech, and association, and if Congress cannot legislate in these areas, 
it cannot investigate in these areas, since the purpose of the investiga- 
tion is said to be legislation. I therefore decline to answer for that 
reason. 

A second reason for which I decline is what I saw in this room the 
other day. You brought a stool pigeon to the stand and in the course 
of his testimony he named a score or more of people. He said they 
were good citizens, and he said that he knew something, subversive 
about them, and he said he never heard them talk of force and vio- 
lence. He said they were concerned primarily with improving their 
craft and improving their position in their craft. 

It is common knowledge that anyone named before this committee 
as he named them loses his job immediately and can no longer earn 
a living in a profession that he worked many years to build up. It 
creates great economic hardship and anguish on him, and his family 
and on his family's family, and it spreads to many other associations 
and yet this man wrecked the lives of these people because, as came out 
in the testimony, he was promised that there would be no reprisals 
against his wife, which meant that she could continue to hold her job 
and could continue to support the stool pigeon. 

Now, I say that this is a shocking display, and this was done with 
the connivance of the committee and encouraged by the committee. 
We talk about corruption in government. This is corruption of the 
soul. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, may I ask your cooperation, please, in giving 
your reason? I think that you have dealt with that part of your rea- 
sons enough, do you not % 

Mr. Alexander. Well, I think that this is the essential part of the 
reason that this corruption of the soul 

Mr. Doyle. No ; you have given that reason, or argument. It is 
all argument, but I have let it go in, and now please cooperate and 
confine yourself to the reasons. 

Mr. Alexander. This is the reason, and let me just say again, that 
I refuse to cooperate in extending that corruption and I refuse to 
allow you or give you any opportunity to corrupt my soul or anybody 
else's soul. 

Mr. Doyle. Go ahead with your reasons for refusing to answer, if 
you have any further reasons. 

Mr. Alexander. I have further reasons. Another reason is that 
a member of this committee, or let me say or put it this way — another 
reason is that this committee by its acts is killing the culture of this 
country. First of all, it is doing it by means of the blacklist. 

Mr. Doyle. Now you are getting argumentative, and I want to leave 
whatever you say in the record, but it is argumentative purely. 

Mr. Alexander. Well, Mr. Doyle, if this was not a fact, and if the 
committee did not do these things, my reason and my answering might 
be different. 

Mr. Jackson. This is simply an opinion of the witness which is not 
shared, by and large, by the American people, Mr. Chairman, and I 
move that anything which represents his opinion solely be stricken 
from the record. We are after his constitutional reasons as set forth 
in the Bill of Rights for not answering certain questions. 



4184 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Alexander. In other words, if my opinion does not agree with 
the majority of the American people, it has no basis. 

Mr. Jackson. I do not care what your opinion is. You are en- 
titled to your opinion, but that is not a legal reason for refusing to 
answer the question put to you by counsel. That is solely your per- 
sonal opinion which I say I do not believe is shared by 98 percent of 
the American people, who have full confidence in the work of this 
committee. 

Mr. Alexander. They may not know all of the facts. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Alexander. My attorneys advise me that it is not within your 
power to state whether or not my reasons have a legal force or not, 
because the determination would be made by a court, and that many 
reasons which you may not think are legal, the court may find as legal 
grounds and many which you may think are legal grounds, the court 
may not. 

Mr. Jackson. That may be quite true, but this committee still has 
the right to strike any argument from the record so far as you are 
concerned, or any other witness, and you have been arguing the point 
here. I do not think that there is any question about it. 

Mr. Alexander. I do not understand what you mean by argument. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Alexander. This is a legal matter, and I am sorry I have to 
keep turning to my attorneys for legal advice. 

Mr. Doyle. May I say we want you to rely upon your attorneys' 
advice. 

Mr. Alexander. But I am told 

Mr. Doyle. But I want to make it clear, also, to you and the coun- 
sel, that I am acting as subcommittee chairman, and I do not have to 
agree with what your attorneys may tell you, as far as presiding over 
this meeting is concerned, and I want to cooperate. 

Mr. Neusom. I might jnst say that we too would like to cooperate, 
and the witness is giving his reasons for the record, and we are not 
asking or we are not trying to take a lot of time, but the witness feels 
within his conscience that he should have the right to state in the 
record these reasons which he feels and for that purpose we are trying 
to establish the record. I can understand that you may not agree with 
him that they are legal grounds. 

Mr. Doyle. We do not want any witness, Mr. Neusom, to feel he 
is violating his own conscience, but on the other hand, I am not going 
to be in a position to allow witnesses prepared to make long propa- 
ganda speeches to take the time of the committee and all of the other 
witnesses to make them. If you will confine your answers to reasons, 
we want them in there, because we want you to go from this committee 
feeling that you have had a reasonable chance to state your conscien- 
tious reasons. Now, let us try again. 

Mr. Neusom. With the understanding that the witness is going to 
state his conscientious reasons and the committee will allow them to 
state them. 

Mr. Doyle. If he goes afield into argument, I will not permit him 
to state argument, but I will permit him to state his conscientious 
reasons. 

Mr. Alexander. Writers are named before this committee, and then 
they lose their jobs, and can no longer obtain employment in their 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4185 

field. Screen writers who write, who have been named, who write 
screen plays, that is no longer possible to do even though in the past 
many of those that they made won academy awards. Radio writers, 
and the scripts they write today are no longer 

Mr. Doyle. Now you are being argumentive and I am going to 
begin to strike it from the record unless you cooperate on a basis of 
reasons. 

(Statement of witness was ordered stricken from the record.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I point out a distinction. A 
witness may have various reasons why he does not want to answer the 
question, but the only point that is in issue here is whether or not he 
has a legal reason for refusing to answer the question. None of those 
opinions and ideas could possibly be a legal reason for refusing to 
answer the question. 

Mr. Doyle. I wish to say to counsel and the witness just this : Mani- 
festly, you have constitutional reasons to decline to answer the ques- 
tion. You have been 13 minutes, and you have not mentioned the 
United States constitutional provisions as your grounds for declin- 
ing to answer, and now those are the reasons and the rest of this is 
argumentative, and that is as I see it. Do you not stand on your con- 
stitutional rights? 

Mr. Alexander. You said that I was 13 minutes and did not men- 
tion my constitutional rights, and would you have the record reread 
and I think that you will find that I did. 

Mr. Doyle. If you did 

Mr. Alexander. And also the 13 minutes has been partly and 
greatly concerned with a legal discussion here, and I would have 
finished 

Mr. Doyle. May I state this. The witness is right, because I wrote 
down here myself, he said, "I decline to answer, standing on my con- 
stitutional rights." I beg your pardon for misstating it, but may I 
say you plead the provisions of the Constitution that you do stand on ? 

Mr. Alexander. And these are the only reasons that a man can 
give for making a decision which affects his entire life. 

Mr. Doyle. I am not going to permit you to be argumentative. I 
will strike from the record that which is argumentative. 

Mr. Alexander. Is it argumentative for me to say that a member 
of this committee has introduced a bill into Congress 

Mr. Doyle. Now, the other witness gave that and I know two or 
three of you have come prepared to give those reasons or those 
arguments. 

Mr. Alexander. Is that an argument? What is an argument about 
it ? The man has introduced a bill. 

Mr. Doyle. I am going to insist on my ruling whether you and your 
counsel like it or not. Now, I am going to shut you off from being 
argumentative and I am trying to cooperate, and be broad-gaged, 
and let you take the time of the committee to present the propaganda 
speech that you have prepared, but I want you to stand on your legal 
rights and not be argumentative. 

Mr. Jackson. Could you relate your refusal, or could you relate 
your reasons to either the first, fifth, or ninth or tenth amendments 
directly? I think that might be a reasonable compromise. But you 
are going far afield as I see it, sir, to what you are relating it. To what 

95008— 52— pt. 4 6 



4186 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

right that you enjoy under the Constitution does the introduction of 
a bill in Congress by a Member of Congress authorized to so introduce 
a bill; to what constitutional provision upon which you rely does 
that relate? 

Mr. Alexander. May I state a provision of the bill ? 

Mr. Jackson. I am not interested in the provision of the bill. He 
is entirely within his legal rights in introducing any measure he 
sees fit, including one to outlaw the Communist Party, if he sees that 
that is proper. 

Mr. Alexander. May I relate my constitutional rights to a pro- 
vision of that bill ? 

Mr. Doyle. I am going to strike it from the record. 

Mr. Alexander. That is what he asked me to do, and he said that 
we could accept that as a compromise. 

. Mr. Jackson. Congressman Velde's bill does not relate to this hear- 
ing in any way, shape, or form. You are asked a question and you 
have certain constitutional rights upon which. you can refuse to an- 
swer that, and I should think that that would be quite a simple matter 
to go ahead and state your constitutional grounds in order that both 
you and the committee could save some time and eventually wind up 
this hearing, because we are going to stay here until the hearing is 
over, if it takes from now to kingdom come. 

Mr. Alexander. I am only an individual here, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Please go ahead with your reasons. 

Mr. Alexander. May I give that bill ? 

Mr. Doyle. No, sir. I am asking you for your reasons and stand 
on whatever constitutional rights you have. 

Mr. Alexander. I am told that this bill is expressly related to the 
first amendment, and unless I can explain 

Mr. Doyle. You can explain your rights and your refusal to 
answer under the first amendment, but not under the bill, and I am 
not going to permit you to be argumentative. 

Mr. Jackson. That bill will be debated in a far greater forum than 
this committee represents, and it will be debated before the Congress 
of the United States, and the decision will be reached there and not 
reached here, irrespective of what you say about the bill or what I say 
about the bill. I personally do not see that it relates at all to your 
rights under the first amendment, than a piece of legislation intro- 
duced in the Oklahoma legislature would have anything to do with 
your rights under the Constitution. 

Mr. Alexander. I believe it relates to both the first amendment and 
fifth amendment and now if I could give it 

Mr. Doyle. You cannot give it and I will not permit you to and 
your counsel might just as well understand that I am not going to 
permit your clients to take the time of all of the other witnesses and 
the committee to be argumentative, and I am going to be firm on that, 
Mr. Neusom. 

Mr. Neusom. Mr. Chairman, I want you to understand that these 
witnesses or the witnesses that I represent testify the way they feel, 
and when you make the statement to me that you are not going to 
permit them, it is perfectly all right, but understand that the witnesses 
are testifying to the things that they feel, and they have been under 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4187 

subpena for some 7 or 8 months, and I am sure that if you had been 
under subpena for that length of time, many things would have built 
up in your mind that you would want to say, and many reasons, and 
perhaps you disagree as to the legality of them, but reasons just the 
same which are perfectly valid, and I think if this witness had been 
given the opportunity to briefly state his reasons, he would have 
been off the stand long ago, and the legal technicality that has 
ensued would not have come up. 

Mr. Doyle. I am going to insist on my ruling whether counsel 
or the witness like it or not. 

Mr. Neusom. There again it refers to counsel. I am only with 
respect to problems that he asks me about, and I will give him advice. 

Mr. Doyle. He can state his constitutional rights and that is all he 
is allowed. 

Mr. Neusom. As to other matters that is up to the committee and I 
cannot rule for the committee. 

Mr. Esterman. I want to ask if there is a time limit for witnesses? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Alexander. Then may I just say in closing that I rely on the 
first amendment in regard to a book-burning bill which has been in- 
troduced by a member of this committee into Congress, and I have 
one final reason for declining to answer that question, and I base 
that declination on the rights guaranteed in the fifth amendment of 
the Constitution under whose provisions no one can be compelled 
to give testimony against himself. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Alexander. I decline to answer that question for the same 
reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party ? 

Mr. Alexander. The same question and the same answer and the 
same reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Doyle. We have no questions. Thank you, Mr. 'Alexander. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Doyle. The committee will stand in recess for 10 minutes. 

(A short recess was taken.) 

(Members of the subcommittee present: Representatives Clyde 
Doyle and Donald L. Jackson.) 

Mr. Doyle. We will proceed, please. 

Is counsel ready? 

Mr. Tavenner. I would like to call Lynn Whitney. 

If the photographers want to take pictures, I will not permit it 
while the witnesses are taking the oath from here on. May this be 
understood, that of course if there is any unusual incident while the 
witness is testifying it will be all right. 

Miss Whitney, will you rise and be sworn, please ? 

You solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

Miss Whitney. I do. 



4188 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

TESTIMONY OF LYNN WHITNEY, ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL, 

THOMAS G. NEUSOM 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ? 

Miss Whitney. My name is Lynn Whitney. 

Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell your first name, please? 

Miss Whitney. L-y-n-n. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Whitney. Do you mean to ask an actress when she was born ? 

Mr. Tavenner. If you object 

Miss Whitney. I certainly do. 

Mr. Tavenner. I will ask you where you were born ? I have had 
some offended because I asked the question and some offended because 
1 did not, and so I never ask in advance. I am sorry ; I did not hear 
your answer. 

Miss Whitney. I was born in Illinois. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now, are you a resident of Los Angeles? 

Miss Whitney. Yes; I live here. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived here ? 

Miss Whitney. In Los Angeles? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

May the record show the name of the attorney representing you? 

Mr. Neusom. Thomas G. Neusom. 

Mr. Tavenner. Approximate dates will be sufficient. 

Miss Whitney. I imagine 10 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. I understood from what you said that you are an 
actress. What is your profession? 

Miss Whitney. Pardon me? 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

Miss Whitney. My profession is that of an actress. 

Mr. Tavenner. In what? Is there any particular field in which 
you have specialized as an actress? Are you an actress in the radio 
or in moving pictures or both, or what ? 

Miss Whitney. I have acted in various mediums. Is that what you 
want to know ? I have acted on the stages, yes, in the theater, screen, 
is that what you want to know ? 

Mr. Tavenner. And radio? 

Miss Whitney. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. According to the testimony before the committee, 
there was organized a group or cell of the Communist Party within 
the radio field. Mr. Owen Vinson was the treasurer of that organi- 
zation, and Mr. Paul Marion was a member of it, and both of them 
have testified and identified you as a member of that group. Were 
you a member of that group ? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Whitney. As I understand your question, and as I under- 
stand my rights before this subcommittee, I choose to exercise my 
rights under the Constitution of the United States and, therefore, in 
response to this question and to any other question put before me by 
this subcommittee which has to do with what I think, what I read, 
whom I know, with whom I associate, or where I go, or any question 
that directly or indirectly relates to any of the organizations which 
you have on your various lists, or any persons 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4189 

Mr. Tavenner. My question related solely to the Communist Party. 
Would you answer the question, please ? 

Miss Whitney. Or members of any of these organizations, or any 
question concerning the testimony 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I suggest the witness be directed to 
answer the question. 

Miss Whitney. Or any person who has appeared before you, I 
refuse, I decline, and I will not answer such questions for the follow- 
ing reasons. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, Miss Whitney, may I ask you if you have a pre- 
pared statement that you are reading, and you can file it with the 
committee, but it is an absolute rule of the committee that prepared 
written statements shall be filed and not read. 

Miss Whitney. As you know, I am not reading, and I have some 
notes, yes. I am not an informer, No. 1, and I will not 

Mr. Tavenner. Such an answer could not be responsive to my 
question. 

Mr. Doyle. That is right. Miss Whitney, I will have to strike that 
kind of a statement from the record, if you try to insist on giving 
it. 

Miss Whitney. Why? 

Mr. Doyle. Because it is argumentative. 

Miss Whitney. In what way ? 

Mr. Doyle. Because it is. It is not a valid reason for you— — 

Miss Whitney. Under what rule do you have 

Mr. Doyle. It is not a constitutional reason in my judgment, and 
it is not a reason. You are not pleading the Constitution, your con- 
stitutional grounds for refusing to answer. You have a perfect right 
to plead your reasons and your constitutional reasons, and I just 
assume that you will plead the first and the fifth 

Miss Whitney. You should not assume anything, and I want to 
say why I refuse, decline, and will not answer this question or any 
other questions put to me by this subcommittee. 

Mr. Doyle. You have made that statement. 

Miss Whitney. I don't think that I have fully covered my reasons. 

Mr. Doyle. Just explain your reasons. 

Miss Whitney. Mr. Neusom, this legal debate, I really cannot in- 
volve myself in. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Whitney. My reasons are as follows. These are my grounds, 
that I am not an informer, though I will not contribute to this com- 
mittee's efforts to create thought control 

Mr. Doyle. Now, if you insist on giving those arguments, I will 
just strike them from the record, because we are not going to take 
the time of other witnesses and the committee to listen to arguments. 
Give your reasons, but that is argument. 

Miss Whitney. That is an argument, and this is a reason that is 
a reason and that is an argument, and I really don't understand you 
at all. 

Mr. Doyle. I can see you do not. 

Miss Whitney. Did he say I shall not answer? I have no right 
to answer this question ? Is that what he is saying ? That is how it 
sounds to me, that I do not have the right to answer your question. 

Mr. Doyle. You know you have that right. 



4190 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Miss Whitney. Now, for further reasons, for this further reason 
I stand on my rights under the first amendment which guarantees to 
every citizen freedom of belief, and association and my rights under 
the fifth amendment which says no witness may be compelled to testify 
against himself or answer any question which might incriminate him. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss "Whitney. As I understand your question, and as I undesrtand 
my rights before this committee, I choose to exercise my rights guar- 
anteed me by the Constitution. Therefore, in response to your ques- 
tion or any other question put to me by this committee or this sub- 
committee, which has to do with what I think, what I read, whom I 
know, with whom 1 associate, or where I go or any other question that 
directly or indirectly relates to any of the organizations which this 
committee 

Mr. Tavenner. I am speaking of only one organization. 
• Miss Whitney. As listed  

Mr. Doyle. That is exactly the same language that you gave in 
answer to the first question, and I do not mean to be impolite, but you 
have that on a card, and I notice it is all right to refer to the card, 
but please do not repeat the same verbiage at length. 

Miss Whitney. You are asking me the same question. 

Mr. Doyle. Why do you not stand on the same grounds and for 
the same reasons, if that is what you do? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Whitney. If you have the right to ask the same question, I 
most certainly have the right to give the same answer. 

Mr. Doyle. That would be splendid if you would do it just that way 
and as briefly as that, and then the other witnesses can also come, and 
they can go home to their businesses and homes, and that is what I 
am suggesting. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Whitney. You keep repeating questions with all of its impli- 
cations, and I am trying to give my answers with all of their implica- 
tions, you understand? 

Mr. Doyle. Yes; I do understand. 

Miss Whitney. Then may I be permitted to continue? 

For that reason I refuse, I decline, and I will not answer such ques- 
tions under my privileges in the first amendment which guarantees 
the right to freedom of belief and association and my rights under 
the fifth amendment to refuse to testify against myself. 

Mr. Neusom. Mr. Chairman, some one on the other side of the room 
was shaking a finger at the witness in a threatening manner, and I 
don't know whether he indicated me or the witness, and I am just 
wondering whether he was just talking or whether it was meant for 
the witness or her counsel? It is .the gentleman seated just directly 
behind the investigator there now. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you talking about anyone connected with the 
committee? 

Mr. Neusom. I am referring to a spectator. 

Miss Whitney. They tolerate this behavior. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4191 

Mr. Neusom. I just thought I would bring to the attention of the 

chairman 

Mr. Doyle. I warned before that no indication would be permitted, 
directly or indirectly, of approval or disapproval of any testimony 
or any action either favorable or unfavorable and please cooperate 
with that. We shall not allow the shaking a finger or nodding of a 
head or lifting of an eyebrow or anything else that is intended to 
relate to either the lawyers or the witnesses on the stand, please. 

Mr. Neusom. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Whitney. As I understand your question, and as I under- 
stand my rights before this subcommittee, I choose to exercise my 
rights under, the Constitution. Therefore, in response to your ques- 
tion and to any other question put before me by this subcommittee 
which has to do — is he listening to me — which has to do with what I 
think, what I read, whom I know, with whom I associate, or where 
I go, or any question that directly or indirectly relates to any organi- 
zations listed on any of your various lists, or persons publicly iden- 
tified as officers or members of any of these organizations, or any 
question which concerns the testimony of any witness who has ap- 
peared before you, I refuse, I decline, and I will not answer such 
questions for the following reasons. First, I am not an informer. 

Mr. Doyle. Just a minute, Miss Whitney. I am not going any 
further to let you take the time of everyone in the hearing room that 
is waiting to be called to repeat the same testimony you gave before. 
Those things are argumentative and why don't you cooperate with 
the committee, and your neighbors, that also want to testify and get 
out of here, and just say that you plead the first and fifth amend- 
ments, and you have repeated the same language, and you have re- 
ferred to your cards and read from your cards. It seems to me that 
you ought to be generously cooperative, and we are trying to hurry you 
out of the witness chair, if you want to get out of it. Apparently you 
do not. 

Miss Whitney. He keeps asking me the same question, and I 
keep giving naturally the same answer, and this is my opinion, and 
you object to my answers, and you don't object to his questions. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, Miss Whitney 

Miss Whitney. I have been telling you; I have not been reading. 

Mr. Doyle. Why do you not say "I have already given my argu- 
ment," and just say "I stand on the first and fifth amendments for 
the same reasons," and let it go at that. 

Miss Whitney. What kind of legal argument is that ? Well, that 
is what I thought. I thought I could answer as I pleased. 

Mr. Neusom. I think for convenience witnesses have used the same 
grounds and the same answer, but the witness chooses to make her 
statement. 

Mr. Doyle. I am not going to permit the witness to reiterate and 
reiterate the same language she has written out on cards and given. 

Miss Whitney. Why does he permit him to ask me the same 
questions? 

Mr. Doyle. I do not want to be discourteous, but this is a public 
hearing, and we have heard those reasons and they are good, and now 



4192 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

why do you not just say, "I stand on my constitutional rights," and 
you have already given those, the first and fifth amendments, and your 
counsel knows that that is adequate, the same as we do. 

Those are adequate legal grounds, if you plead the first and fifth 
amendments, and all of the provisions thereof, and if counsel disagrees 
with the subcommittee chairman, tell me so. 

Mr. Neusom. There is no disagreement. The only thing is, the wit- 
ness wants to make an answer. 

Mr. Doyle. I know, but she wants to read the same alliteration. 

Miss Whitney. I am not reading. 

Mr. Neusom. It was not read. She gave the answer based on notes 
that she had. However, if you will let us know exactly where we were 
with the answer, I think she can finish very briefly. 

Miss Whitney. I think I remember. 

I refuse to answer this question 

Mr. Neusom. Could we have the reporter read back the answer as 
given, or the last part, so that we could continue and get in the record 
the grounds, Mr. Chairman, that are indicated ? 

Mr. Doyle. Yes, indeed. 

(Answer was read by the reporter.) 

Miss Whitney. I am not an informer. Secondly, under my privi- 
lege granted to me or guaranteed me by the first amendment to freedom 
of speech and freedom of association, and based on the fifth amend- 
ment, which protects me from testifying against myself. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you for endeavoring to cooperate. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. Thank you. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I will call Mr. Ed Max. 

Mr. Doyle. You solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Max. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF EDWIN MILLER MAX, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUN- 
SEL, WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND THOMAS G. NEUSOM 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ? 

Mr. Max. Just a moment, please. I have some notes, and may I 
refer to notes ? 

Mr. Doyle. Yes, certainly. Will you identify your counsel while 
you are getting those ? 

Mr. Esterman. William B. Esterman and Thomas G. Neusom. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you ready to proceed now ? 

Mr. Max. Not yet. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner.' What is your name, please, sir? 

Mr. Max. I was subpenaed under the name of Ed Max. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is that your correct name? 

Mr. Max. Under what name do I appear in your dossier? 

Mr. Tavenner. Is that your correct name? 

Mr. Max. My name is Edwin Miller Max. I would assume that 
you would know that much.. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Max? 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4193 

Mr. Max. I was born May 1, 1909, in Savannah, Ga., which I left at 
the a<re of 9 because I couldn't stand it any more. I was a sensitive 
child. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, apparently you have come here to be hu- 
morous, haven't you ? 

Mr. Max. May I make a request ? 

Mr. Doyle. Just a moment, Mr. Max. If you will just answer these 
questions, please, and not come prepared to be argumentative or to 
have a show, we want to get through with this hearing if we can. 

Mr. Max. I gave you a factual answer. 

Mr. Doyle. Just hold to the answers, and do not have a chip on 
your shoulder as you apparently have. We expect your dignified 
cooperation. I will ask for it and insist upon it. 

Mr. Max. May I make a request ? 

Mr. Doyle. If it is a proper request. 

Mr. Max. I have been here since Thursday, during that time several 
members of the committee 

Mr. Doyle. No, I will not let you go into an argument or a tirade 
against the members of the committee, and we will proceed with the 
questioning. 

Mr. Max. I wish Mr. Jackson would stop leaning against the flag; 
it looks discourteous and it shows a lack of interest. 

Mr. Doyle. There is nothing against the flag and his chair cannot 
touch the flag. 

Mr. Max. Well, it appears to be. 

Mr. Jackson. If I leaned against the flag as little as some people 
stand for the Constitution, not a great deal will happen. 

Mr. Doyle. Go ahead, Mr. Max, and take the chip off your shoul- 
der and let us go ahead. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you live in Los Angeles ? 

Mr. Max. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived there ? 

Mr. Max. Since approximately 1937. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Max. I am a performer. 

Mr. Jackson. You did not bring all of the education out of Georgia 
with you. Some of the rest of us have been to school. 

Mr. Max. There isn't enough there, Jackson. 

Mr. Jackson. I am a Member of Congress, which is entitled to some 
show of, if not respect, at least common decency and common courtesy. 

Mr. Max. Under penalty of what? 

Mr. Jackson. Penalty of nothing, except to be shown to the world 
at large as one who does not exercise the common, everyday instincts 
of courtesy. I intend to refer to you as Mr. Max during the course of 
your testimony, and to show you what courtesy is possible under the 
circumstances, and I should appreciate it if you would show to the 
committee members the fundamental, basic considerations of courtesy. 

Mr. Max. This is all basic, and I show you courtesy and do not leave 
the room while I am testifying. 



4194 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Max, you were identified as having been a 
member of a Communist Party cell within a radio group by two wit- 
nesses. Is it true or is it false ? 

Mr. Max. I don't believe I answered the last question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well skip the last question. 

Mr. Max. You don't care to know how long I have lived in Los 
Angeles? 

Mr. Tavenner. No. 

Mr. Max. What was this question ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Read him the question. 

(Question was read by the reporter.) 

Mr. Max. I decline to answer that question for the following rea- 
sons. May I give them ? 

Mr. Doyle. Yes, we will be glad to have you give your reasons. 

Mr. Max. As implicit in this text, t-e-x-t, please note the text, 
t-e-x-t 

Mr. Doyle. The United States Constitution? 

Mr. Max. No, the United States Code Annotated, Constitutional 
Amendments 1 to 13. In the rear of the reference it says, "1951, Cumu- 
lative Annual Pocket Bar, for Use During 1952." Is that pertinent in 
future years. I don't know, but it says 1952. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, we are not going to permit you to read a long text. 
We want you to identify the book and we will incorporate it in our 
record, the part that you refer to. 

Mr. Max. Do 3 7 ou consider the Constitution of the United States a 
prepared statement? 

Mr. Doyle. Can you be brief to give us your reference, and then 
tell us your reasons? 

Mr. Max. I think the amendments in the Constitution are quite brief, 
succinct. 

Mr. Doyle. No, we are asking you to cooperate. 

Mr. Max. I would like to read them. 

Mr. Doyle. Just give us the number of them. 

Mr. Max. I would prefer to read them. 

Mr. Doyle. We do not ask you to take the time to read them. We 
are familiar with the amendments and probably everyone in the hear- 
ing room is. 

Mr. Max. I think they are reasons, Congressman. Do you dispute 
this ? Will you deny me the opportunity to have these reasons written 
into this record? 

Mr. Doyle. I will ask you to refer to the sections of the Constitution 
on which you rely, and you have read them and you have a right to 
stand on them. 

Mr. Max. I haven't read them. 

Mr. Doyle. Have you not read them before you came to the hearing 
room ? 

Mr. Max. I am not convinced that you are familiar with them. 

Mr. Doyle. I will ask you to refer to the sections of the Constitution 
on which you rely. 

Mr. Esterman. May I respectfully call the chairman's attention to 
the fact that there have been cases in not the higher courts, but in some 
of the lower courts, where an issue has been made of the extent to which 
witnesses have relied upon amendments or parts thereof. I have coun- 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4195 

seled with this witness, and I feel that on the basis of counsel he has 
in respect of this point that he is urging his position. 

Mr. Doyle. If the counsel please, you heard our distinguished chair- 
man, John Wood, of Georgia, repeat time and time again that the 
mere reference to the constitutional provision meant that all of the 
terms of that constitutional provision were relied upon. 

Mr. Esterman. I did, Mr. Doyle, and I happen to have a difference 
of opinion about the law with Mr. Wood. 

Mr. Doyle. I will stand upon my chairman's ruling, that when a 
witness says he stands upon the first amendment or the fifth amend- 
ment, he stands on each and every word of the first and fifth amend- 
ment, and that is why it is not necessary to take the time of every- 
one concerned for this witness to read the United States Constitution. 

Mr. Max. Will you dare to have it so stipulated in this record that 
I have been forbidden to read my reasons ? 

Mr. Doyle. You have not, and you know full well you have not, and 
why make that statement? Why do you make a show out of it, or 
try to ? 

Mr. Max. I don't make a show of it. 

Mr. Doyle. Kefer to your notes and give us your reasons. 

Mr. Max. My notes are the amendments from the Bill of Eights, 
which I wish to read before this committee. 

Mr. Doyle. What section do you. refer to ? 

Mr. Max. I refer, to begin with, to the first amendment which I 
would like to read, because I am not sure that everyone understands it. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, you are not here to educate everyone in the room, 
you are here to give your reasons for declining to answer this ques- 
tion, if you do. 

Mr. Max. It is most important that I go into it in great detail, be- 
cause I would like to elicit from you a proof or certain evidence of 
whether you are still sworn to uphold it. 

Mr. Doyle. You are not subpenaed here to question this committee. 
We are here to question you, and have you stand on your legal rights 
and that is all. And give your reasons, and you are not going to be 
given any opportunity to question members of this committee. 

May we have an understanding? 

Mr. Max. Is this a hearing ? 

Mr. Doyle. This is a hearing. 

Mr. Max. Whose, yours or mine? 

Mr. Doyle. It is your hearing. 

Mr. Max. I would like to be heard. 

Mr. Doyle. Go ahead and be heard. 

Mr. Jackson. May I suggest that to the extent that the answer of 
the witness is valid reason to, so far as constitutional reasons are con- 
cerned, that that be admitted to the record, and that any further 
argument and any further reading, and any further discussion be- 
yond his constitutional reasons for refusing to answer be stricken 
from the record. 

Mr. Doyle. I want to be sure that any conscientious, valid reason 
goes into the record. 

Mr. Jackson. So do I. 

Mr. Doyle. I am sure both of us do on the subcommittee. 
(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 



4196 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Have yon completed your answer ? 

Mr. Max. No, I wish to give my legal reasons. One of my legal 
reasons is the first amendment to the Federal Constitution of the 
United States. For those who are not acquainted with it and for 
those who don't wish to abide by it. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is not a question of who may be acquainted with 
it, if you base your refusal to answer on the grounds of the first amend- 
ment, the committee will understand fully what you mean. Now, 
are there any other reasons ? Are there any other legal grounds upon 
which you base your refusal to answer ? 

Mr. Max. I wish to refer to that part of the first amendment which 
contains most specifically 

Mr. Tavenner. I submit, Mr. Chairman, the witness has answered 
that question, as far as the first amendment is concerned. 

Mr. Doyle. He certainly has. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now, do you rely on any other constitutional 
grounds for refusal to answer the question ? 

Mr. Max. Am I to take my legal advice from you ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I think that you are supposed to answer the ques- 
tions that are propounded to you. 

Mr. Max. Well, is it as inflexible as that ? I have an attorney, and 
it is my understanding that my counsel comes from him. 

Mr. Doyle. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. If you have no further grounds upon which you 
wish to rely, I am not insisting that you rely on any further grounds, 
but you have satisfactorily relied upon the first amendment. Now 

Mr. Max. Not to my satisfaction. 

Mr. Tavenner. Your answer is just as full and complete as if you 
were here for an hour stating it, as far as any legal reason may be for 
refusing to answer the grounds under the first amendment. 

Mr. Max. To the extent that I as a loyal American citizen am fully 
protected by the first amendment. 

Mr. Doyle. That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. I am not insisting on your giving any further an- 
swer as to any other reasons, but if you have them I would like for you 
to state them. 

Mr. Max. Yes, I have other reasons. I wish to refer to the fourth 
amendment. This is called searches and seizures. 

Mr. Doyle. All right, we are familiar with that. 

Mr. Max. What is the text of it ? 

Mr. Doyle. Have you any other grounds, please ? 

Mr. Max. I don't know if you know the fourth amendment, if you 
will tell me what it is, I would like 

Mr. Doyle. We are not here to be questioned by you, and will you 
please give any other reasons and you have referred to that amend- 
ment, and that includes all of the amendments. 

Mr. Max. You may assume that the fourth amendment is too arbi- 
trary and so I would like to refer to a portion of it. 

Mr. Doyle. I don't assume any amendment of the Constitution is 
too arbitrary, I am trying to live under it, just like I suppose you 
do, and now do you have any other reasons ? 

Mr. Max. I can reconcile that with your reasons here. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4197 

Mr. Tavenner. Having stated you refuse to testify because of the 
fourth amendment, I now ask you whether there are any further 
grounds that you desire to state. 

Mr. Max. Just a moment, please. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Max. I would like the record to show, in relationship to my 
previous reason for declination, chiefly the first amendment, that por- 
tion of the fourth amendment which I invoke, and I wouldn't read 
it all, but this might be contested, and it might be challenged, and I 
would like to be specific about this : It is very brief but I think very 
comprehensive, and I would like you to hear that. 

Mr. Doyle. What section of the fourth amendment is it? 

Mr. Max. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, 
houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures 
shall not be violated. And no warrants shall issue but upon probable 
cause supported by other affirmation and particularly describing the 
place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized. 

Mr. Doyle. Now do you have some other provision of the Consti- 
tution ? 

Mr. Max. I suggest 

Mr. Doyle. Now you have read it and we have it and now you 
stand upon it and that is the particular section, as I understand it, 
you stand upon. Is that correct ? 

Mr. Max. I don't approve of the breaking and entering of the home, 
in my opinion. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, you have given the reason and now do you have 
some other reasons which you claim for declining to answer? 

Mr. Max. Do you think this is a good reason ? 

Mr. Doyle. I think that is always a good reason, certainly. 

Mr. Max. We have two good reasons now. 

Mr. Doyle. It is an amendment to the Constitution, and now let 
us have any other section of the Constitution on which you rely. 

Mr. Max. So far, you are cooperating with me, is that true? 

Mr. Doyle. Yes, I am trying to, sir. 

Mr. Max. I wish to refer to the fifth amendment This is not a 
refuge amendment but one of several valid amendments, also perti- 
nent, and before it becomes blacklisted I would like to have it stressed 
again. 

Mr. Doyle. They are all valid in our judgment. 

Mr. Max. Well, I don't want them to be blacklisted. 

Mr. Doyle. No one is going to blacklist the fifth amendment, as 
far as this committee is concerned. 

Mr. Max. Capital crimes, due process — no person ^ 

Mr. Doyle. Now wait, please, we are familiar with it and if you 
stand upon the fifth amendment that is adequate for our purpose, 
and it is adequate for yours. 

Mr. Max. Again you forbid me to read the Bill of Rights. 

Mr. Doyle. I do not refer to the Bill of Rights. I am merely ask- 
ing you for your cooperation, the same as we are trying to cooperate 
with you for the purpose of protecting your rights, but be reasonably 
as brief about it as you safely can. That is all we are asking. 

Mr. Max. I am being brief. 

Mr. Doyle. Not when you are trying to insist on reading all of 
the f^fth amendment which we are all familiar with. 



4198 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr, Max. May I read four lines from it ? 
Mr. Doyle. Yes ; indeed you may. 

Mr. Max. This is the abridged 

Mr. Doyle. Read your four lines. 
Mr. Max. I am not abridging it. 

No person shall be compelled to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived 
of life, liberty, or property without due process of the law. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you very much, and we understand you stand 
not only on that section, but all of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Max. Is that valid ? 

Mr. Doyle. It is always a valid amendment, and now have you 
any other reason why you decline to answer ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, is any other reason necessary ? 

Mr. Max. I wish to give all of my reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. That reason is a perfectly valid reason for your 
refusal to testify and it is a complete answer to my question. 

Mr. Jackson. And it has been so recognized by this committee for 
many years. 

Mr. Max. I have an addendum in terms of reasons, and I would 
like to completely justify myself, and I would like to give the other 
reasons. You have minimized my first three. 

Mr. Doyle. We have not tried to. 

Mr. Max. At least allow me to refer to the other two. 

Mr. Doyle. Go ahead, and we will be glad to allow you to refer to 
the other two. 

Mr. Max. Because there was some doubt about this on Friday, the 
ninth amendment, I believe a witness didn't know what it is, and he 
wasn't told by the Chair what it was. 

Mr. Doyle. Of course you refer to my question to the gentleman 
and if you plead the ninth amendment, go ahead and do it. 

Mr. Jackson. The Chair did not claim the ninth amendment, but 
the witness did. 

Mr. Max. Did the Chair acknowledge it? 

Mr. Jackson. The Chair is not under my responsibility to acknowl- 
edge in any way, except as to permit the admission of the amendment 
as being appropriate to a refusal to answer. There is no need and 
no necessity and no requirement that the Chair or any member of 
the committee enter into any dispute or argument or debate about 
your claims under the Constitution. All we ask is that you set them 
forth as briefly and succinctly as possible. 

Mr. Max. We have had a debate about my constitutional— — 

Mr. Doyle. Do you plead now the ninth amendment as a reason 
why you do not answ T er, and if you do, tell us so and we will accept 
it as another reason you give. 

Mr. Max. I plead and stress the ninth amendment and I would like 
to have it entered into the record to this extent : 

Reserved powers to States : The powers not delegated to the United States by 
the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the States are reserved to the States 
respectively or to the people. 

Mr. Doyle. We are aware that that is the wording of the ninth 
amendment substantially, and it will go into the record as you have 
read it. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4199 

Mr. Max. Now, before continuing with my other reason, I believe 
you may have some incredulity, some doubt about my loyalty ; is that 
true ? 

Mr. Doyle. You answer the questions of our counsel, please. 

Mr. Max. I don't want to be slouched off in this matter. Because I 
have speut 43 years building up a score and I would like an answer to 
it and this has all been pretty academic so far. 

Mr. Doyle. I assure you the Constitution of the United States is 
never academic, it is fundamental. 

Mr. Max. I would like to know why I have been called. 

Mr. Doyle. You have been subpenaed, haven't you ? 

Mr. Max. Yes. 

Mr. Doyle. We expect your dignified cooperation, and we are taking 
the whole noon hour to do it and we expect your dignified cooperation. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Jackson. The witness asks why he was called. Do we have an 
identification of him as a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Tavenner. The basis of the question was upon the identification 
by two witnesses and I didn't give their names at the time, but their 
names are Mr. Owen Vinson and Mr. Paul Marion. 

Mr. Jackson. Very briefly, then, that is the reason you are here, is 
because of identification by two individuals under oath that you are a 
member of what has been found in law to be an organization which 
teaches the advocacy, teaches and advocates the overthrow of the 
Government of the United States by force and violence. 

Mr. Max. Have I been charged with a crime? 

Mr. Jackson. No ; but you have the greatest forum in the world to 
deny these allegations and I hope you will avail yourself of the 
opportunity. 

Mr. Doyle. You understand our legal counsel's question. Do you 
understand what our lawyer asked you 15 minutes ago; the question 
was a simple one. 

Mr. Max. Yes, and I am giving my reasolis ; and if I understand it I 
wouldn't give my reasons. 

Mr. Jackson. Please continue to give your reasons if you have any 
more, why you decli ne to answer. 

Mr. Max. Another reason I have is the tenth amendment. I don't 
know if I gave you that. 

Mr. Tavenner. You gave us the ninth amendment. 

Mr. Max. I gave you the ninth. 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, and the next is the tenth. 

Mr. Max. The tenth. 

Mr. Doyle. Do you stand on the tenth amendment as one of the 
reasons why you decline to answer, and if you do, that is all that is 
necessary to tell us. 

Mr. Max. Reserved powers to the States. 

Mr. Doyle. I am asking you a fair question and we are not going to 
tolerate your making a monkey out of all the other witnesses and this 
committee in taking up the full luncheon time that ordinary people 
participate in. Now please cooperate in a dignified manner, and we 
know what the tenth amendment is. You are not going to consume 
the whole luncheon hour of all of these people here, who are waiting 



4200 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

to be called and the committee members and their staff, even though 
you might like to. I have been perfectly fair with you for 31 minutes. 

Mr. Max. Congressman, I have been here since Thursday. 

Mr. Doyle. All right, sir. 

Mr. Max. I was the first one here Thursday morning at 9 : 30, my 
subpena read 10 o'clock. We recessed at 12 : 20. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is quite apparent that the witness is endeavoring 
to delay these proceedings. 

Mr. Max. I have been punctual, and I have been present. 

Mr. Doyle. Be a good scout, if you can, will you, and cooperate 
and if you can't why, O. K. 

Mr. Max. It is 2% lines, Congressman. 

Mr. Doyle. Eead it and get your 2% lines in, if that helps you. 

Mr. Max (reading) : 

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution nor pro- 
hibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively or to the 
people. 

Mr. Doyle. You stand on that, and now what is your next reason, 
please ? 

Mr. Max. My next reason has to do with this : May I say a few words 
about my military record ? 

Mr. Doyle. No, we are asking you other questions now, and just go 
ahead with those. 

Mr. Max. We ought to dismiss those 3 years of my life that I 
spent 

Mr. Doyle. If we want that information we will ask you about it. 

Mr. Max. Well, I would like it specified in the record, because I 
think it applies. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be directed 
to answer the question. 

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question. 

Mr. Max. What question was it? 

Mr. Tavenner. Whether or not you were a member of the unit of 
the Communist Party within the radio branch in radio in accordance 
with the testimony of Mr. Owen Vinson and Mr. Paul Marion. 

Mr. Max. Is that the same question you asked me ? 

Mr. Tavenner. That is the only question that I have asked you 
about Communist Party matters. 

Mr. Max. I have defined my reasons, if that is what you want to 
know. 

Mr. Tavenner. Then I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you decline to answer the question for the reasons 
given ? 

Mr. Max. I decline to answer the question for the reasons given, 
and I give you my veteran's bonus and these two medals which you can 
take back to President Truman, the Bronze Star, and the Good Con- 
duct Medal, because you have sabotaged the words "fidelity, honor, and 
efficiency." 

Mr. Doyle. We would not assume to take from you something that 
you ought to be very proud to always keep in your possession, and 
pass it on to your heirs and successors. 

Mr. Max. I was proud, but not any longer. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4201 

Mr. Doyle. I am ashamed of you, making that statement that you 
are not proud of a medal given you by the United States Govern- 
ment. 

Mr. Max. They used to be called fruit salad, and they have now 
become fraud salad. 

Mr. Doyle. I am ashamed of you as an American citizen for want- 
ing to discard personal possession of a medal given you by the United 
States Government. 

Mr. Max. You have negated their importance. 

Mr. Doyle. I can never negate the importance of a man being 
proud of the fact that he is an American citizen and has served the 
United States Government. No man can negate that, sir. 

Mr. Max. I am proud of it, but you haven't given me the oppor- 
tunity in this forum to explain it. 

Mr. Doyle. We have given you every opportunity, and I am 
ashamed of you, throwing a medal from the United States Gov- 
ernment on a table, and throwing it in the garbage or discarding the 
personal possession of it. 

Mr. Max. Mr. Doyle, you died on April 12, 1945. 

Mr. Doyle. My son died in the last war in order that men like you 
might live and I am ashamed. 

Mr. Max. You died when Roosevelt died because you were a better 
man while he was alive. 

Mr. Doyle. I think that I am a better man because Roosevelt lived 
and died. I am proud of the fact that I admired him a great deal. 

Mr. Max. Am I excused ? 

Mr. Doyle. You are, thank you. 

The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock. 

(Whereupon, at 12:45 p. m. the committee recessed until 2 p. m. 
the same day.) 

AFTER RECESS 

(The hearing was resumed at 2:10 p. m., Representatives Clyde 
Doyle and Donald L. Jackson being present.) 

Mr. Doyle. Let us come to order, please, and proceed as promptly 
as we may. 

Mr. Tavenner. I will call Stanley Waxman. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Waxman, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Waxman. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF STANLEY WAXMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUN- 
SEL, THOMAS G. NEUSOM AND WILLIAM ESTEEMAN 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. Waxman. Stanley Waxman. May I make a request, sir, the 
request all of the other witnesses have made with regard to pictures ? 

Mr. Doyle (to the photographers). Will you hurry, if you are not 
through ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify themselves for the 
record ? 

Mr. Neusom. Thomas G. Neusom and William Esterman. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Waxman? 

95008— 52— pt. 4 7 



4202 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Waxman. I was born on January 13, 1914, in Cincinnati, Ohia 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Los Angeles ? 

Mr. Waxman. I reside in Los Angeles County. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles County?' 

Mr. Waxman. Approximately since the year 1945. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession, please ? 

Mr. Waxman. I am an actor. 

Mr. Tvvenner. Are you acting in radio as well as movies?' 

Mr. Waxman. I have acted in radio mainly, yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. What has been your scholastic training ? 

Mr. Waxman. I attended public and high school and university 
in Cincinnati, and I attended religious school there. I believe the 
only other scholastic training that I have had was during my period 
in the Army during which time I went to basic training officers' 
candidate school. I attended the Foreign Education School in Paris. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long were you in the Army ? 

Mr. Waxman. I was in the Army somewhat over 4 years. May 
I say, sir, that somewhat over 2 years of that was spent overseas in 
the European theater and I participated in five major battle cam- 
paigns. I made the campaign of Normandy, northeastern France, 
Ardennes, Middle Europe, and the Rhineland. I believe those are 
the proper designations for those battles. 

Mr. Tavenner. According to the testimony of Mr. Owen Vinson 
and Mr. Paul Marion there was a cell of the Communist Party in 
Los Angeles in the radio field. Each of them testified that they were 
members of that group and Mr. Vinson testified that he was treasurer 
and collected the dues. In the course of the testimony both of them 
identified you as a member of that group. Was that identification 
correct or was it false? 

Mr. Waxman. Mr. Tavenner, I decline to answer that question on 
the grounds of the first amendment to the Constitution of the United 
States and for the following reasons : Because I feel that this ques- 
tion is an invasion of my rights and through me an invasion of the 
rights of all of the people in the United States. They are rights 
which have been guaranteed as a firm condition of our free society, 
the rights to speak freely and to write freely and to associate freely 
with whomever one chooses; to be free in mind and heart and in 
spirit, and free to convey any ideas or hold any ideas, beliefs, or 
convictions that one chooses to hold or chooses to convey. I believe 
it is the right of people to be right and I believe it is the right of 
people to be wrong. I refuse to answer this question because to 
answer it I feel would be to admit that you had the right to inquire 
and to ask such a question. 

I do not concede you this right. To answer this question would 
be, to my way of thinking, to deny the basic premise on which our 
democratic Government is founded, namely, that an enlightened peo- 
ple, enlightened with the free exchange of ideas, can best govern 
themselves. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Waxman, I don't mean to interrupt you, but were 
you in the room this morning 

Mr. Waxman. Yes, sir; I was. 

Mr. Doyle. When Mr. Max was discussing the matter? 

Mr. Waxman. I was. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4203 

Mr. Doyle. You remember, I think I tried to be fair but I also 
had to be firm and ask him to try to cooperate and give us his consti-, 
tutional reason and then, as near as he might without argumentative 
support, his reasons? 

Mr. Waxman. I appreciate— 

Mr. Doyle. I know that you will try the same thing. 

Mr. Waxman. I intend to be just as brief and as quick as I can 
be, but I have thought very deeply about this whole question over a 
long period now. 

Mr. Doyle. We realize it. 

Mr. Waxman. I feel that just as others here have had the oppor- 
tunity to express themselves, I would like just a few minutes to ex- 
press myself. : 

Mr. Doyle. All right. Will you hasten on ? 

Mr. Waxman. I assure you I will be as brief as I can. 

I refuse to answer this question, also, because I will not be a party 
to the destruction of free communication of thought. I feel that it 
is only when people have free access to all thought that they cart 
examine and select, accept, and reject whatever thought they choose, 
and whatever they feel is right and whatever they feel is good. I feel 
to answer your question would encourage further violations of such 
rights and do a distinct disservice to a government which derives its 
power from the consent of an enlightened people. 

I further refuse to answer this question because as an actor, as one 
who works in a cultural field, I refuse to join in the destruction of 
American culture which this committee holds itself responsible for. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Waxman, are you reading from a statement ? 

Mr. Waxman. Sir, these are my notes. 

Mr. Jackson. Is that a verbatim statement that you are reading 
from ? 

Mr. Waxman. These are my notes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Those are not in the form of a statement that you are 
giving word by word ? j 

Mr. Waxman. I beg your pardon ? 

Mr. Jackson. Is that a statement which you are repeating word 
by word ? 

Mr. Waxman. Not word by word. 

Mr. Doyle. Wouldn't you please not be argumentative in it? Give.. 
us your reasons. 

Mr. Waxman. Sir, I don't mean to be argumentative. These are 
my reasons. I have thought a great deal about this, and I have sat 
here for over 2 days now and I have heard others giving their reasons 
and I want the right to give my reasons. This is a critical moment 
in my life. 

Mr. Doyle. It is a critical moment in the committee when we have 
to call anyone for subpena, but I hesitate to think the time will be 
consumed if you use 7 or 8 pages of notes. 

Mr. Waxman. I have just a few, and I am sure it isn't timed over a 
minute and a half or less. 

Mr. Doyle. All right, another minute and a half as long as you 
offer that. 

Mr. Waxman. I feel that the fear and intimidation and the black 
lies and the gray lies which have stemmed from the operations of this 



4204 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

committee are frustrating artists and I feel thereby it is impoverish- 
ing the Nation's culture. 

As an actor I feel that all avenues of expression and all avenues to 
knowledge and all avenues to truth must be kept open because all 
knowledge is the particular province of the actor and not just a piece 
of knowledge and not just that part of knowledge which is stamped 
official. 

I refuse to answer this question, also, because the air is free and 
belongs to the people according to the Federal Communications Com- 
mission. I feel that, therefore, anything that goes over the air should 
also be free. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

_ Mr. Waxman. These are my reasons and they are not argumenta- 
tive. I am not a lawyer. 

Mr. Jackson. Those are your opinions, sir, and 

Mr. Waxman. I am not a lawyer and I don't know the delicate 
difference. 

Mr. Jackson. When you accuse this committee and the members 
of the committee of entering into a conspiracy, it is a very serious 
charge, and as I said, it represents only your opinion and for that 
reason I renew my motion. 

Mr. Waxman. I am allowed to hold my opinion. 

Mr. Jackson. Yes; and you are allowed to voice them, but we are 
not under any compulsion to accept those insults as part of the of- 
fical record, Mr. Waxman. 

Mr. Waxman. I don't mean them as insults ; I mean them as facts. 

Mr. Jackson. It would be very difficult to put any different in- 
terpretation on the charge that we have joined a conspiracy, and I 
renew my motion. 

Mr. Doyle. They will be stricken out, and I can't do less, Mr. 
Waxman. Go ahead, please, and we want to give you the full 
benefit. 

Mr. Waxman. You don't deny that there is a blacklist and that 
lias come as a result of the activities of this committee, do you ? 

Mr. Doyle. There is no intention of the committee that there shall 
ibe any such harm come through this committee. You see, it isn't 
our fault that anyone is a member of the Communist Party; let 
them get out of it if they want to get out of it. 

Mr. Waxman. The harm has come to people who have not even 
enjoyed due process of law and they haven't been charged with 
crimes. 

Mr. Doyle. We are asking the cooperation of you and other Amer- 
ican citizens in an investigation of any subversive activities, and that 
is why you are subpenaed here. We are asking you in all good faith 
as an American citizen to tell us, just like our counsel asked. 

Mr. Waxman. In all good faith, sir, as an American citizen, I would 
like you to make some statement against this blacklisting that has 
been going on. 

Mr. Doyle. Proceed as promptly as you can. 

Mr. Waxman. Would you make such a statement? 

Mr. Jackson. Let me say that if there is a blacklist as you charge, 
that that blacklist has not been a blacklist of this committee but a 
blacklist on the part of the American people who refuse to go through 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4205 

picket lines thrown around the theater protesting the presence of 
Communist players in the production. 

Is this committee to tell the American people — we don't attempt 
to tell the labor union who can pass through their picket lines— - 
and are you attempting to say that this committee should say to 
the American people, "You may see such and such a picture and you 
may not see such and such a picture?" 

Mr. Waxman. Oh, no, indeed. 

Mr. Jackson. Well, the blacklist arises out of the reluctance of 
the people. 

Mr. Waxman. Some from this committee have certainly upheld this 
policy of blacklists. 

Mr. Jackson. I will not retort to your charge of blacklist except to 
say that so far as I am concerned personally, neither would I attend 
a motion picture in which members of the Communist Party were 
employed in any capacity. 

Mr. Waxman. There are many motion pictures which I wouldn't 
attend but for many different reasons. 

Mr. Jackson. We are exercising our constitutional prerogatives to 
go or not to go, but I simply say to that point that I would not go. 

Mr. Waxman. But it is not a matter of to go or not to go, it is a 
matter of work or not to work ; and when I walk out of here I would 
like to work in my chosen profession, which I have given over 20 years. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Waxman, may I say to you, sir, I have just returned 
from Japan and Korea and Okinawa and so forth where I interviewed 
top American men and GI's and they all told me that the American 
Communist Party took its orders and directions direct from the Soviet 
Union, the Communist Party and the Russian line. We find as a 
matter of documentary record that the Communist Party in America 
does follow the Russian line. 

You see, the subversive line as it comes from Russia direct to 
America is, we believe, chuck full of subversive attitudes and activities 
toward our Government and toward our institutions. 

Now, we are here investigating to see whether or not you and other 
citizens who it is reported to us are members of the Communist Party 
or were, are willing to come on with the United States Congress and 
find out what we can about the Communist Party's activities in this 
country, because all our American authorities in Korea and Japan tell 
us — and they don't hesitate to — they say the "commie" line in America 
comes directly from Moscow. So that when we ask you 

Mr. Waxman. I don't see what all of this has to do with the black- 
list question. 

Mr. Jackson. You have been identified as a member of what has 
been found in law to be an international conspiracy, that is very plain 
and very clear, and if you want to deny it now is the proper time and 
the proper forum for you. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Waxman. Sir, along that line, is there such a criminal con- 
spiracy going on in this city ? 

Mr. Doyle. Do you know anything about one? Let us get back to 
the question, now, please, because other witnesses are waiting and it 
isn't fair to all of them for us to take so much time to discuss it with 
you, although as an American citizen we would like to. I think the 
question was whether or not you knew anything about the Communist 



4206 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

cell. In other words, you were named definitely within the last few 
days as being a member of a Communist cell hereabouts in Los An- 
geles. I think our counsel asked you whether or not the testimony of 
these two members of the profession in Hollywood and Los Angeles 
was true or false. 

Now, you are back right here in the same forum. 

Mr. Waxman. I was proceeding to give my reasons, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. All right, give them, to us. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I suggest to the witness, you have already 
assigned the first amendment as a legal grounds for refusing to answer 
the question. Now, do you have any other legal grounds upon which 
you claim a right to refuse ? 

Mr. Waxman. I have other grounds. I refuse to answer this ques- 
tion on my own highest sense of morality which will not permit 
me 

Mr. Tavenner. That is not, or that has nothing to do with a legal 
reason. 

Mr. Doyle. I am going to have to insist firmly and I will try to be 
fair the same as I did with your copatriot Max. 

Mr. Waxman. My co- American. 

Mr. Doyle. I hope you don't throw down a medal of the United 
States and want to get rid of it, too, as he did ; but nevertheless I had 
to insist that he desist from argumentatives and now I am going to 
have to insist on that with you. 

Mr. Waxman. I can't differentiate. 

Mr. Doyle. I can differentiate, and if you can't differentiate be- 
tween argumentative and reasoning, I think that I can and I will in- 
sist on my rulings, as long as you don't know the difference. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is there any other constitutional ground upon which 
you desire to base your refusal to answer ? 

Mr. Waxman. Well, I have been trying to give my reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, you may have as a reason that you don't like 
the necktie that I am wearing or something else, but that is not a 
legal reason. Now, I am asking you if you have any constitutional 
grounds upon which you desire to base your refusal. 

Mr. Waxman. I am still relating my answers to the first amend- 
ment. 

Mr. Tavenner. You have already asserted the first amendment 
as a ground, and now if you have any other I would like to hear it. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Waxman. Sir, I would like very much to give you my reasons 
and I feel that I have a right to give my reasons. 

Mr. Doyle. If it is argumentative, I will have to strike it out, 
and if they are reasons they may go in. But, for instance, your 
opinion of this committee is not a reason for your standing on your 
rights to refuse to testify. 

Mr. Waxman. But it could be. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, it is not a valid reason. 

Mr. Waxman. I am accepting my legal advice from my attorneys 
and I can't accept legal advice from you. 

Mr. Doyle. I don't offer it to you, you have good counsel ; but I 
am not going to permit it. They know your rights, but I also know 
mine. 

Mr. Waxman. If you would withdraw the question 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4207 

Mr. Doyle. I will not withdraw the question. I am going to be 
firm and I am going to try conscientiously to be fair. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I am going to announce my inten- 
tion of objecting to anything except constitutional grounds which 
have a standing in a court of law and I am not at all interested in 
the opinions of the witness. 

Mr. Esterman. May I request that no references be made to counsel 
which contain any innuendo that the answers are suggested by me. 
I am counseling this man as he has a right to have counsel. The 
answers are his and I hope that no suggestion to the contrary was 
contained in your remarks. 

Mr. Doyle. It was not so contained. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now, do you have any other constitutional basis for 
your refusal to answer ? 

Mr. Waxman. I further decline to answer this question on the 
grounds of the fifth amendment to the Constitution, any and all 
provisions applying thereto, with specific reference to that portion 
which states that no one may be compelled to be a witness against 
himself — the precious, hard-fought-for and hard-won right to pro- 
tect innocent people from inquisitorial oppression. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr. Chairman, having assigned that consti- 
tutional ground as a basis for his right to refuse to answer the ques- 
tion, I think that is sound. I see no reason for insisting on answering 
the question further. 

I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Doyle. We have no further questions, Mr. Waxman. Thank 
you very much. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I will call Pauline Hopkins. 

Mr. Neusom. Mr. Tavenner, if you will remember, I discussed 
that matter with you and that was continued to November 17. 

Mr. Tavenner. I didn't recall. I thought it was continued until 
today. 

Mr. Neusom. It was continued to November IT, and you will re- 
member the specific facts. 

Mr. Tavenner. I will accept your word for it. 

Mr. Neusom. Thank you. 

Mr. Tavenner. I will call Herman Waldman. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Waldman, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Waldman. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF HERMAN WALDMAN (DAVID WOLFE), ACCOM- 
PANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, THOMAS G. NEUSOM AND WILLIAM B. 
ESTERMAN 

Mr. Waldman. Mr. Doyle, may I request, as the others did, that 
there be no photographs taken during the testimonv? 

Mr. Doyle. I think, if the press will cooperate. Of course, I sup- 
pose the press might logically raise to me sometime that they have 



4208 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 



certain rights under the first and fifth amendments, the freedom of 
the press. I notice so many witnesses have claimed the first and fifth 
amendments and mentioned the freedom of the press. This is a public 
meeting and the press may fire that back at me, Mr. Waldman ; don't 
you see? 

Mr. Waldman. Mr. Doyle, if I may be permitted to testify fully and 
in my own way, I will make no objections to the press taking all of the 
pictures they want during the testimony. 

Mr. Doyle. I know they will cooperate, but I do not want to remind 
you and myself that they pleaded the freedom of the press. 

Mr. Waldman. I have no intention of interfering with the freedom 
of the press. 

Mr. Doyle. I know you don't, but I just wanted to remind the 
press and myself and you and the other witnesses that they are here 
under the freedom of the press and they have their constitutional 
rights. 

Mr. Waldman. However, when a person sits up before a Congress- 
man from the United States Congress and his fellow citizens and 
must give his position and must state his position clearly, frankly, 
and forthrightly on a number of very important issues, it is — and I 
plead this to the press — very disconcerting to have flashbulbs popping 
in your face. 

Mr. Doyle. I am sure that they will cooperate with you and with 
you especially, because you have made it very clear. 

Mr. Waldman. May I say in advance that I came here under sub- 
pena and I am being asked to state my position very forthrightly 
and frankly on a number of very important issues in front of my 
fellow citizens and in front of two Members of the Congress of the 
United States, and I shall do so ; but, in response or in return, I think 
it is only fair of me to ask the courtesy of the committee to allow me 
to state my answers as fully and as completely as I feel does justice 
to my position. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, now, let's understand each other. You were 
in the hearing room this morning ; weren't you ? 

Mr. Waldman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. And you were here this afternon and you have heard 
my rulings? 

Mr. Waldman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. They will apply to you, sir, the same as they have to 
the others; so, don't get into the field of a prepared argument. We 
will receive all of the legal valid reasons you want, and we will stay 
here to hear them, but I will not vary from my rulings as applied to 
the other witnesses. 

Now, let's go ahead, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir? 

Mr. Waldman. My name is Herman Waldman. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you known by any other name ? 

Mr. Waldman. Professionally, in the theater, on the stage, in mo- 
tion pictures, radio, and television, I have used the professional ac- 
tor's name of David Wolfe. 

Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell Wolfe? 

Mr. Waldman. W-o-l-f-e. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4209 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify themselves for the rec- 
ord. 

Mr. Neusom. Thomas G. Neusom and William Esterman. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Waldman? 

Mr. Waldman. I was born in Chicago, 111., in 1917. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside now ? 

Mr. Waldman. In Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Waldman. To the best of my recollection since June of 1910. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

Mr. Waldman. I am an actor, a blacklisted actor. 

Mr. Tavenner. In the field of radio ? 

Mr. Waldman. In the field of radio and in the field of television 
and in the field of the theater and in the field of motion pictures; 
and I am blacklisted in all of them. 

Mr. Tavenner. There has been testimony before this committee 
within the past few days by Mr. Owen Vinson and Mr. Paul Marion 
that you were a member of the Communist Party cell of which they 
were members and which consisted of persons in radio. They identi- 
fied you as a member of that group. Was that testimony true or 
false? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Waldman. May I respectfully request to cross-examine these 
witnesses whose testimony you referred to, Mr. Tavenner ? 

Mr. Tavenner. You may address your request to the committee, 
but it is one that has never been granted to my knowledge. 

Mr. Waldman. May I request of the committee to cross-examine the 
witnesses ? 

Mr. Doyle. We have no procedure set up, Mr. Waldman, for such 
procedures as that. We would never get anywhere in our investigation 
of subversive activities if the committee tried to take the time or make 
opportunity for every witness who was named under oath to cross- 
examine the witnesses who swear that they were Communists under 
oath. You were in the courtroom — I mean in the hearing room — 
yesterday when your name was mentioned. 

Mr. Waldman. I agree with you that it has all of the atmosphere 
of a courtroom but without due process of law. 

Mr. Jackson. It is a courtroom literally, without reference to the 
presence of this committee, I believe. 

Mr. Doyle. You mean the physical situation in which we are 
located? 

Mr. Jackson. I believe so. 

Mr. Neusom. It is a civil-service examining room ; it is not a court- 
room. 

Mr. Jackson. This committee is governed by the rules of the House 
of Representatives, and the rules of the House of Representatives in 
no instance make any provision for the cross-examination of witnesses. 
We are solely carrying out our function, as do other committees of the 
House, and there is no provision in any committee of the House of 
Representatives nor of the United States Senate, so far as I know, for 
cross-examination of witnesses by counsel. 



4210 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Waldman. The rules of the House of Representatives also pro- 
vide that Congress can make no law respecting or abridging the 
freedom of speech. 

Mr. Doyle. Let's get on rather than being argumentative and answer 
the question. I am going to be firm and fair, but I am not going to 
permit you or any other witness to be argumentative if I can help it. 

Mr. Waldman. It is not my purpose to be argumentative. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, manifestly so. You have been asked a question. 
What is your answer? 

Mr. Waldman. I decline to answer that question on the following 
grounds : May I state my grounds ? 

Mr. Doyle. Of course, if they are legal and valid grounds; but, if 
you have a paper you are going to read, file it with us. 

Mr. Waldman. These are notes, Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. All right ; I will take your word for it. 

Mr. Waldman. First, I decline on the basis of the first amendment 
of the Bill of Rights of our Constitution of the United States, which 
provisions expressly state that Congress can make no law abridging 
freedom of speech or of the press or of association or of the right of 
the people peacefully to petition their Government for redress of 
grievances. It is my position that this question is in violation of that 
provision of the Constitution because, if Congress has no right to make 
laws abridging freedom of speech in this area, it has no right to investi- 
gate in this area, since the purpose of this committee is to make laws. 
The purpose of the investigation is to result in legislation that is 
patently unconstitutional. 

Mr. Doyle. That is very well stated, and I appreciate your being 
brief and right to the point. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record. ) 

Mr. Waldman. In direct constitutional relationship to this ques- 
tion, Mr. Doyle, may I submit this piece of documentary evidence 
which I call "Waldman Exhibit No. 1"? 

Mr. Doyle. I will be very glad to receive it. 

Mr. Waldman. It is Mr. Justice Douglas' article reprinted from the 
New York Times on The Black Silence of Fear, and he attributes it 
directly in part to this committee's activities. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Waldman. I further decline because it is my position that this 
committee is unconstitutionally constituted on the basis of the four- 
teenth and fifteenth amendments to the Constitution, especially the 
fifteenth amendment to the Constitution, which provides that no 
person shall be denied his right to vote by reason of his race or color. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Waldman. I am stating my constitutional grounds for refusing 
to answer the question. That is a definite constitutional ground. 

Mr. Neusom. It is one of the constitutional grounds that he is stat- 
ing, and it is an amendment to the Constitution of the United States. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, let the reference to the amendment itself stand 
in the record, but not as to the argument as to one of the members of 
this committee coming from that State. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 421 J 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record. ) 

Mr. Waldman. Counsel has referred to the testimony of Mr. Vinson 
and Mr. Marion, I believe. In respect to Mr. Vinson's testimony, he 
said these alleged Communists were good citizens, sincere people. 
[Quoting:] "I never knew them to be engaged in any subversive 
activity, and I never heard them discuss force or violence." Why then 
are these sincere individuals that he refers to, why then are people — — • 

Mr. Doyle. You are getting into the argumentative field and it will 
be stricken. You were here and heard the testimony, and you heard 
him testify substantially as you have stated, and now if you were in 
that Commie group, as long as it has been testified by him that he 
did not know any of them in that group that were subversive, if you 
were in that group, why do you not come and say so? We are not 
charging you with being subversive nor making any charges against 
you, excepting that we have under oath two responsible men who 
we believe to be responsible, who said you were in the Commie grou]i), 
and you heard them testify out of their own mouths that the members 
of that group, as far as they knew, were not subversive. s 

Now, therefore, it seems to me a perfect plan for you to get out om 
because if you were in that group, why don't you say "Why, sure I 
was in that group and I was not subversive, and you heard two men 
testify I was not subversive." Why not do thaU Then we can go 
into the question of processes of the Commie Party cell of which it was 
sworn you were a member. 

Mr. Waldman. Do you have the power, Mr. Doyle, does the com- 
mittee have the power to investigate nonsubversive activities ? 

Mr. Doyle. We are charged with investigating subversive activities 
and propaganda, and we would not waste our time knowingly in 
investigating nonsubversive activities. 

Mr. Waldman. And yet your most cooperative witnesses have stated 
that they are nonsubversive witnesses. 

Mr. Jackson. Now, Alger Hiss went to prison, and there have been 
people found guilty in the courts of the land for transferring top-secret 
documents of the United States Government to foreign powers, and 
now let us not be naive enough to assume the Communist Party activi- 
ties as they relate to espionage and sabotage are not dangerous and 
are not subversive. This committee has listened to a great deal, or 
you have heard a great deal of testimony here during the past few 
days, but the committee has listened to millions of words of testimony, 
much of it more authentic, I believe, and better documented than that 
of the witnesses to whom you are referring. They are men who are 
experts in the field of sabotage, but to contend that this is a harmless 
precocious prank that is being played on the American people is to 
carry our credulity to a rather extreme length. 

Mr. Waldman. In 5 years of the investigation of the motion-picture 
industry, has there ever been any evidence presented that espionage 
and sabotage has been going on ? 

Mr. Jackson. No, but there has been ample evidence to indicate 
that the funds that probably made possible a great deal of the espio- 
nage and sabotage came out of the moving-picture industry. 

Mr. Waldman. Mr. Jackson, there are laws covering espionage and 
sabotage. 



4212 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Jackson. That is quite true. 

Mr. Waldman. And if there are any illegal activities going on, 
the courts of the United States have the power to prosecute those 
activities and to convict the criminals. 

Mr. Jackson. And they do indeed do just that. However, much of 
the material upon which they have worked has been developed in the 
House Committee on Un-American Activities. Let us not forget that 
fact. That is precisely what we are after in the present instance. If 
you are indeed not in any- way connected with a subversive organiza- 
tion, again I say here is the best forum in the world for you to deny 
it, to your fellow workers, to your friends, and to your neighbors, but 
let us not attempt to rationalize the conspiratorial nature of commu- 
nism by simply saying, "Well, there is nothing conspiratorial about it." 

Mr. Esterman. May I point out most respectfully that we are op- 
erating under a presumption of innocence, and we are not required to 
prove our innocence against the presumption of guilt ? Is this witness 
charged with any crime ? 

Mr. Doyle. You know the rules, Counsel, and counsel is not per- 
mitted to argue to the committee. The witness is the one who can 
testify. 

Mr. Esterman. I just wanted to ask a question. 

'Mr. Doyle. That is the same thing in another way, Counsel. The 
witness is perfectly able to take care of himself, apparently. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record. ) 

Mr. Doyle. You have given the constitutional amendments on which 
you are relying. If you have given all of them, why, tell us so, and we 
will proceed to the next witness. 

Mr. Waldman. I have not given all of them. 

I further decline on the basis of the ninth and tenth amendments, 
which generally provide that those powers not delegated to the Con- 
gress of the United States or to the States reside in the people, and 
are retained by the people. 

I further decline on the basis of the fifth amendment, specifically 
two provisions of the fifth amendment. First, that provision which 
states that no person may be deprived of life, liberty, or property 
without due process of law. 

(Further remarks made by the witness were ordered stricken from 
the record.) 

Mr. Doyle. You answer the questions, please. 

Mr. Waldman. In response to a question of Mr. Margolis, I heard 
Mr. Jackson say 

Mr. Doyle. I know you have come prepared to be argumentative, 
and I do not blame you, but we do not have time to do it. 

Mr. Waldman. I am trying to defend my right to work. 

Mr. Doyle. We want you to defend that, and I realize how precious 
it is. 

Mr. Waldman. For instance, I heard you say in what I assume is 
good faith, I heard you say, "We want these people to testify so they 
can go back to their jobs and their business" and would you guar- 
antee that I have a job to go back to after I testify? Would you 
guarantee me that ? 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4213 

Mr. Doyle. I wish I could. I wish I could have your guaranty 
that you are not a member of the Communist Party. You could get 
some guaranty then. 

Mr. Waldman. To answer that question, Mr. Doyle, would be to 
lay open the whole field of privacy of belief and association and free 
expression of ideas to the inquisitorial procedures of committees just 
like this. I believe in standing on my constitutional rights and that 1 
am defending the rights of all Americans. 

Mr. Doyle. We want you to stand on your constitutional rights. 

Mr. Waldman. It is free thought, free speech, and the freedom to 
read what they please. It is a freedom which, by the way, Mr. Velde 
would deny them with his book-burning bill. 

Mr. Doyle. You pleaded the fifth amendment and you have read 
one section of it, and let us have the other. I do not want to foreclose 
you. 

Mr. Waldman. I think it was the fourth amendment that I read. 

Mr. Doyle. I beg your pardon. 

Mr. Waldman. No, that is in the fifth amendment, that no person 
shall be deprived of life, liberty, and property without due process 
of law; isn't that right, Mr. Tavenner? 

Mr. Tavenner. If you have any further grounds, we would be glad 
to have them. 

Mr. Waldman. I do, Mr. Tavenner. 

I further claim that provision of the fifth amendment which pro- 
vides that no person may be compelled to bear witness against him- 
self. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Waldman. I decline to answer that question on the following 
grounds. 

Mr. Doyle. If this is a suggestion that meets with the approval of 
counsel, inasmuch as it may not waive any constitutional rights, why 
do you not give the same "The same reason, the same answer, and the 
same grounds," if it is the same reason? 

Mr. Esterman. We are not prepared to stipulate that, Mr. Con- 
gressman. 

Mr. Doyle. I am not going to let him go over those same reasons 
again, I will tell you that. 

Mr. Esterman. If counsel of the committee will stipulate it is the 
same question. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is not the same question. 

Mr. Esterman. Then we cannot stipulate. 

Mr. Waldman. I decline to answer the question on the following 
grounds : First, on the basis of the fifth amendment, Mr. Doyle, and 
second, on the basis of the fourteenth and fifteenth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, just a moment. May I interrupt. 
The witness has based his refusal to answer on the fifth amendment 
which is recognized as a valid ground for refusal to answer. Inas- 
much as the committee agrees to that, there is nothing more that 
he might say that would be material. 

Mr. Waldman. Am I not allowed to finish my declination? 

Mr. Tavenner. Under the circumstances where the committee ac- 
cepts it, I would think no. It is absolutely immaterial and irrelevant. 

Mr. Doyle. That is right. I have no further questions. Shall we 
excuse the witness? 



4214 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Waldman. This question, the answer is incomplete, isn't it? 
I didn't finish. 

Mr. Tavenner. You have based your refusal to answer on the 
fifth amendment, which this committee recognizes is a legal defense 
to your answering the question. 

Mr. Waldman. May I finish the answer? 

Mr. Tavenner. There is nothing more need be said, unless you 
want to make a speech. 

Mr. Waldman. No, I want to assert my constitutional rights. 

Mr. Tavenner. You have asserted all of the rights that are needed, 
and I can see no reason for answering anything further about it, and 
I have nothing more to ask the witness. 

Mr. Neusom. I respectfully submit that where a witness is asked 
a question, and he feels that his answer is based on more than one 
provision of the Constitution 

Mr. Doyle. I do not want you to argue, I cannot permit you to argue, 
but I think that if counsel please, I will allow this witness to refer 
to the two additional amendments, the fourteenth and fifteenth, with- 
out arguing about them, and then you have every constitutional 
amendment in. 

Mr. Waldman. May I base my declination on the first and the ninth 
and tenth amendments, in addition to the provision of the fifth, 
which provides that no person may be compelled to bear witness 
against himself. 

Mr. Doyle. Yes, Mr. Waldman, it will be so understood. 

Are there any further questions? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. You are excused. 
, (The witness was excused.) 

Mr, Tavenner. I will call Annette Harper. 

Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand. Do you swear 
to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Miss Harper. I do. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. 

TESTIMONY OF ANNETTE HARPER, ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUN- 
SEL, THOMAS G. NEUSOM AND WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ? 

Miss Harper. My name is Annette Harper. 
. Mr. Tavenner. May the record show that the witness is repre- 
sented by the same counsel as the former witness, if that be true? 

Mr. Esterman. Yes, that is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is the place of your birth? 
. Miss Harper. Los Angeles, Calif. 
. Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation? 

Miss Harper. I am a stenographer. 

Mr. Tavenner. At this time you say that you are a stenographer? 

Miss Harper. Yes, I am. 
i Mr. Tavenner. Have you followed any occupation or profession 
prior to being a stenographer? 

Miss Harper. Yes, I have been an actress, a radio actress primarily. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4215 

Mr. Tavenner. During what period of time were you a radio ac- 
tress? . 

Miss HARrER. Between the years of approximately 1938, I think, 
and up to about the first of either 1950 or 1951. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Mr. Owen Vinson, and 
Mr. Paul Marion ? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Harper. Mr. Tavenner, I decline to answer that question for 
the following reasons. First of all, I decline to answer because I feel 
that the very nature of the question is in violation of the first amend- 
ment to our Constitution which guarantees us freedom of speech and 
freedom of association. It guarantees us that. The very act of 
your subpenaing people up here to question them as to whom they as- 
sociate with is in violation of the Constitution and I decline to answer 
on the grounds of the first amendment. 

I decline to answer also because one of the witnesses you had up 
here who under oath claimed to have been a member of the organiza- 
tion under question for some years 

Mr. Tavenner. What organization? 

Miss Harper. I decline to answer that, Mr. Tavenner on the grounds 
of the first amendment. Was that a 

Mr. Tavenner. You referred to membership in an organization, 
and I wanted to know what organization you were referring to. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Harper. I was referring to Mr. Vinson's testimony, in which 
he said that lie had been a member of the Communist Party, and now 
may I finish the answer ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Proceed. 

Miss Harper. He claimed under oath that the people whom he had 
named here were not subversives to his knowledge, and had never 
advocated anything of a subversive nature to his knowledge, and that 
he considered them to be good Americans. 

I decline to answer because I feel that the committee has no grounds 
on which to call these people up here in the first place. I decline to 
answer for the further reason, Mr. Tavenner, that to answer this 
question in either direction would place me in the odious position of 
these little men who have been an instrument in the blacklisting of 
their fellow professionals from employment, for which they ably 
proved themselves capable, and I refuse to be a part in destroying 
any of the amendments to the Constitution, and I refuse to be a part 
of the. blacklist procedure, and I decline to answer that question, Mr. 
Tavenner, on the grounds of the fifth amendment, all of it. I feel 
that the framers of our Constitution perhaps had in mind the first 
amendment might be violated some time, and they gave every Amer- 
ican citizen this added protection of the fifth amendment, and I de- 
cline to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time been a member of a cell or 
group of the Communist Party organized within the radio profession, 
and I am referring particularly to the cell or group of the Com- 
munist Party that you mentioned, that one which Mr. Owen Vinson 
was a member of ? 

Miss Harper. That is part and parcel of the same question, and I 
decline to answer that question on all of the grounds I have previously 
stated and for the same reason. 



4216 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Harper. It is the same question and I have the same answer 
for the same reason. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. I have no questions. 

Mr. Doyle. No questions. Thank you very much for being specific 
and comparatively brief. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I will call Mr. David Ellis. 

Mr. Ellis. May I request that photographs be taken before I 
begin my testimony? 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Ellis, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Ellis. I do. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. 

TESTIMONY OF DAVID ELLIS, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, 
WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN AND THOMAS G. NEUSOM 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. Ellis. My name is David Ellis. 

Mr. Tavenner. May the record show that he is represented by the 
same counsel as the former witness, if that be true. 

Mr. Esterman. That is right, Mr. Tavenner. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the date and place of your birth 
please ? 

Mr. Ellis. I was born August 22, 1923, Chicago, 111. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a resident of Los Angeles? 

Mr. Ellis. I am a resident of Los Angeles County. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a resident of Los Angeles 
County ? 

Mr. Ellis. Approximately since September of 1944. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession? 

Mr. Ellis. I am a writer and an actor. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a writer and an actor in radio ? 

Mr. Ellis. Among other media, yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. During what period of time? 

Mr. Ellis. I have been a writer in radio intermittently and spo- 
radically since 1943, I believe. I have been a writer mostly from 
1940 — 1 beg your pardon, since 1951 to 1952, a little before that. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ellis, there has been testimony that there is 
in existence in Los Angeles a Communist Party unit or group within 
the field of radio. It is the same group as to which Mr. Owen Vin- 
son and Mr. Paul Marion testified that they were members. You 
have been identified by Mr. Vinson as having been one of the mem- 
bers of that group. Were you a member of that group or cell of the 
Communist Party at any time? 

Mr. Ellis. Mr. Tavenner, I am going to refuse to answer that ques- 
tion. 1 have been very hard at work in determining what my answer 
should be and how it should be formulated. I believe the reasons 
1 have for my declination are all legal reasons. This declination will 
take approximately one minute and 30 seconds, and I should like to 
complete the answer to this question in my own way and within the 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4217 

limits of that time. It may take a little longer, but I should like the 
courtesy of this committee in making my declination in my own. 
words. 

Mr. Doyle. Subject to the same ruling I have made before with 
the other witnesses, whom you have heard testify, we will try not 
to interrupt yon. 

Mr. Ellis. Thank you, Mr. Doyle. 

I refuse to answer your question on the grounds of the entire Con- 
stitution of the United States of America, because to answer this 
question would be to sell that Constitution to you and neither the- 
Constitution of the United States nor I am for sale. 

(Statement made by witness was ordered stricken from the record.) 

Mr. Doyle. I am sorry, Mr. Esterman, you know what the rules of 
the committee are, and I cannot permit you to argue. You do not 
claim that is legal ground ? 

Mr. Esterman. If the witness took the position that a particular 
position of the committee was illegal, whether he was right or not,, 
that is a legal ground. Why can't it stay in the record ? 

Mr. Doyle. I ordered it stricken on motion, and my ruling still 
stands. 

Mr. Jackson. Will counsel please address the committee through the- 
witness ? 

Mr. Esterman. Through the witness? 

Mr. Jackson. The function of counsel is to advise the witness on 
questions of constitutionality. 

Mr. Esterman. I will accept that. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Ellis. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a request of the com- 
mittee, that every item in my refusal be left in the record as I believe it 
is not the prerogative of this committee to examine whether my 
answers are legal or not legal, and it is up to some other body. I believe 
that these are legal grounds; since there seems to be a difference be- 
tween us, about the legality of these grounds, I feel that it is not the 
prerogative of either of us to decide what should be left in the record, 
and what should not be. I am willing to stand on what I have said 
in the record, and I should think that this committee would be willing 
to stand on the accusations I make against it as well, if they have 
proof that these accusations are wrong. 

Mr. Doyle. Have you answered now all of your claims of valid 
reasons why you should not answer Mr. Tavenner's question as to 
whether or not you were a member of the Communist cell ? 

Mr. Ellis. I have not finished. I have further reasons. 

Mr. Doyle. Let us get back to that. That is the question before us.. 
(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Ellis. May I continue, Mr. Chairman ? 

Mr. Doyle. Give your valid reasons. 

Mr. Ellis. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds of the 
first amendment of the Constitution of the United States which allows 
me the right to think as I please, join what I please, or not join what 
I please, see whom I please, talk to whom I please, and associate with 
whom I please. 

I further refuse to answer this question on the grounds of the fifth 
amendment of the Constitution which allows me the right of silence 

95008— 52— pt. 4 8 



4218 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

which is integral with the first amendment of the Constitution of the 
United States. I refer to those provisions of the fifth amendment 
which pertain to or might apply to the question asked me and the 
answer to that question. 

Mr. Doyle. Are there any other questions, counsel ? 

Mr. Esterman. May I hear the last few words '( 

(Part of answer read by the reporter.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Ellis. That question is the same question in different form and 
I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds, specifically 
and most importantly the grounds of the first amendment of the 
"United States of America, and also the fifth amendment, which allows 
that a man not be forced to testify against himself. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mr. Ellis. 

May the witness be excused ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. All right. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Wolff. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Wolff, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Wolff. I do. 

Mr. Doyle. All right. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WOLFF 

• Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. Wolff. Mr. Chairman, before responding to any questions, 
may I request of this committee the same assurance that was given to 
a. witness, the assurance that I shall not be subject to the blacklist, 
that I will not meet with reprisal as a result of any testimony I may 
present to this committee? 

Mr. Doyle. I do not know of any such assurance, Mr. Wolff, given 
by this committee to any witness. 

* Mr. Wolff. I was in this hearing room when a so-called friendly 
witness presented testimony at the conclusion of which Mr. Jackson 
made a public statement, and read into the record the request that 
the witness nor his wife meet with any reprisal as a result of his 
appearance before this committee. 

Mr. Doyle. That may be. 

Mr. Jackson. Is the witness prepared to cooperate with this com- 
mittee? 

Mr. Wolff. Is that a condition ? 

Mr. Jackson. It is not a condition at all. 

Mr. Wolfe. Then what is your position on the question of black- 
list? 

Mr. Jackson. The blacklist is not pertinent on this inquiry in any 
respect, and I have no position with respect to the blacklist, but I do 
have a position with respect to loyal Americans who come forward to 
give testimony which is needed by this committee, the Congress and 
the American people. If you were prepared to cooperate with the 
committee, I should be very happy to give you the same send-off. 

Mr. Wolff. May I submit, Mr. Chairman, that if the question of a 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4219 

blacklist was not pertinent to this investigation, then what was the 
pertinence of Mr. Jackson's statement? 

Mr. Doyle. Now, Mr. Wolff, I am going to rule it is argumentative, 
and we are not here to be questioned by you, although we would like 
to have time to answer questions and discuss things with you, and 
we are going to proceed to the purpose of the committee; that is, to 
ask you a few pertinent questions. If you have prepared a statement, 
which apparently you have in typewriting, we will be glad to receive 
it, but I will not let you read it. That is a rule of the com- 
mittee. As long as I see 15 or 20 typewriten cards in front of you 
for your memorandum, may I say that my same ruling will apply to 
you, and I will not permit you to be argumentative, and I will try to 
be fair, but I will also be firm. 

You have been in the room these last few days, and evidently you 
are prepared to argue with the committee, and I can understand that, 
but I will not permit argument. So let us proceed. 

Mr. Wolff. May I submit, Mr. Chairman, that my understanding, 
and I request the clarification on this understanding, as very pertinent 
to the testimony I am about to submit, and I request some clarification 
of this committee's position on the black list. 

Mr. Doyle. We are not here to argue with you. 

Mr. Wolff. This is not an argument. This is a simple question, 
which can receive a simple answer. 

Mr. Doyle. We will proceed with the process of the committee as 
we ordinarily do, and we will make no exception for you, sir. We 
have not the time nor the opportunity to do it. 

Mr. Wolff. Am I to assume that exceptions are made for some 
witnesses and not for others? 

Mr. Doyle. Counsel, have you any questions to ask Mr. Wolff ? If 
you have, proceed. 

Mr. Tavenner. I would still like to know his name. 

Mr. Wolff. My name is William Wolff, and before I complete that 
answer, I should like to make another request of the Chair. I should 
like to request the permission that has been granted to other witnesses 
to read into the record and not merely have filed a statement which 
I have prepared. 

Mr. Doyle. I do not know of any statement. 

Mr. Wolff. I then answer to that, and I refer to the committee re- 
ports, page 2157, or rather page 2158 as follows : 

Mr. Tavenner. You have a prepared statement? 

Mr. Goldberg. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Tavenner. Would you care to read it? 

Mr. Goldberg. I would prefer to. 

Mr. Tavenner. Very well, proceed. 

May I then refer to page 2163 of the record : 

Mr. Tavenner, You may proceed to read your statement or to make an oral 
statement as you choose. 

Mr. Riley. I would prefer with the permission of the chairman to read it. 
Mr. Wood. Very well. 

I then refer to page 2174. 

Mr. Russell. Do you have a prepared statement? 
Mr. Siegel. I do. 

Mr. Russell. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that Mr. Siegel be permitted to read 
his statement into the record at the present time. 
Mr. Wood. Very well, Mr. Siegel, we will be glad to have you do that. 



4220 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Shall I continue, Mr. Chairman ? 

Mr. Doyle. Well, now, let me ask you how long it is, and how long 
your statement is, and there are many times 

Mr. Wolff. It is a one page statement, and it not even a complete 
statement. 

Mr. Doyle. There are many times when witnesses appear before us 
and we have ample opportunity to hear their statements read, and 
when that is true, we are glad to have them do it. As long as you 
only have a one page statement, I think perhaps we could do that. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that you examine the 
statement before you permit it to be read ? 

Mr. Wolff. Have these other witnesses been asked to present their 
statements for examination? 

Mr. Jackson. We are not here to answer your. questions. 

Mr. Wolff. I am acting on a precedent established by this com- 
mittee. 

Mr. Jackson. It is quite likely that those witnesses were cooperat- 
ing with this committee, or giving us the benefit of some information. 
Certainly I should be inclined to or disposed to object to any state- 
ment being read which is simply read for the purpose of attacking 
this committee and its purposes. 

Mr. Wolff. Mr. Chairman, I submit 

Mr. Tavenner. May I suggest that 

Mr. Wolff. I do not submit any statement for censorship not to this 
committee or anybody. 

Mr. Doyle. All right, then. You are denied the opportunity at 
this time to file your statement or to read your statement. The record 
will so show. 

Proceed and answer the question. 

Mr. Wolff. May I present the statement to the press? 

(A statement was given to the press.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us your name ? 

Mr. Wolff. My name is William Wolff. The name Wolff-Hitler 
appears upon my birth certificate, and the explanation for that state- 
ment as explained to me by my mother is that she had wished to have 
me named 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question ? 

Mr. Wolff. I believe I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. You are going far beyond, and I did not ask you 
what your mother said to you. 

Mr. Wolff. Well, there is a difference. 

Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell your name? 

Mr. Wolff. W-o-l-f-f. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Wolff? 

Mr. Wolff. I was born in New York City, on the East Side of 
New York City. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the date of your birth, Mr. Wolff? 

Mr. Wolff. I was born on the 9th of June 1909. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Wolff. I am a blacklisted writer. 

Mr. Tavenner. In what field have you been a writer, in the field of 
radio, movies, or what ? 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4221 

Mr. Wolff. I have written for radio and television. 

Mr. Tavenner. During what period of time have you written for 
radio and television? 

Mr. Wolff. Approximately from the year 1945, and until the re- 
ceipt of my subpena, before I even appeared to testify. This is a 
blacklist, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to know your position on 
it. I was blacklisted before I presented testimony to this committee, 
and what do you think of that ? 

Mr. Jackson. Go to the people who blacklisted you and do not come 
here to this committee. 

Mr. Wolff. I am here before the people who were instrumental on 
my blacklist, and I request that kind of a statement. 

Mr. Doyle. Have you any other question ? 

Mr. Tavenner. It has been testified by Mr. Paul Marion and Mr. 
Owen Vinson that they were members of a cell or group of the Com- 
munist Party organized within the radio field here in Los Angeles, 
and both of them identified you as a member of the same group with 
them. Were you a member of that group of the Communist Party at 
any time ? 

Mr. Wolff. May I have the fundamental right of being confronted 
by the witnesses who have so testified and an opportunity to cross- 
examine them, which is basic to the law of the land ? 

Mr. Doyle. I will direct you to answer the question, Mr. Wolff. 

Mr. Wolff. Will you repeat the question? 

Mr. Tavenner. Read the question. 

(Question was read by the reporter.) 

Mr. Wolff. In response to this question, I shall refuse to answer it, 
because I shall not permit myself to be a party to persons, to instru- 
mentalities, to committees, which create a blacklist. My reason for 
refusing is because it is not the function of government to keep the 
citizen from falling into error, but rather the function of the citizen 
to keep the Government from falling into error. I so do now. 

I further refuse to respond or rather to answer this question in a 
manner indicated under the rights of the first amendment which does 
not grant to this nor to any other committee the right to invade the 
freedom of ideas, the freedom of people to think, to write, to speak, 
to associate, to assemble, the freedom of the press, and I refuse to 
be a party to any contravention of that right. 

I further decline, invoking my privileges under the fifth amend- 
ment which conversely gives me the right to be silent if I so choose, 
but more specifically to that part of the fifth amendment which states 
that no citizen shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, and my 
right to a job and a right to support my family is a sacred property. 

Further, I refuse to answer under that same privilege of the fifth 
amendment which states that.no one shall be compelled to be a wit- 
ness against himself nor compelled to give answers which might con- 
trive, or might be contrived or might be interpreted or might tend 
to incriminate himself. 

I further decline under my understanding of the sixth amendment, 
which states that a person accused of a crime be so informed of its 
nature, the cause of its accusation to be confronted with the witnesses 
against him, and have the right of cross-examination. 

I further decline to answer this question on a basis of my under- 
standing of the ninth and tenth amendments, which unequivocally 



4222 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

states that the rights and privileges not granted to the Government 
under the Constitution revert to the people and I regard this inquisi- 
tion as an invasion of those rights. 

I further decline to answer on a basis of my understanding of the 
fourteenth amendment with specific reference to section 3 which 
states that no person shall be a Senator or a Representative in Con- 
gress who, having previously taken an oath as a Member of Congress 
to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have given aid 
or comfort to the enemies thereof, and I here charge that the mem- 
bers of this committee have violated their oaths. 

Mr. Doyle. That will be stricken as a malicious and despicable 
insult, untrue, and known to be untrue when it is uttered by this 
witness. 

Mr. Wolff. I challenge that interpretation, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Doyle. I do not. 

Mr. Jackson. For the benefit of the other Members of the House 
and Senate, I respectfully suggest that the words be allowed to re- 
main in the record. 

Mr. Doyle. I think that I will withdraw my direction that that 
last answer be stricken, and we will leave it in and let the Congress 
of the United States see what this man says. 

Mr. Wolff. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and it is a rare instance of 
impartiality on your part. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, I am a rare Congressman. 

Mr. Wolff. Indeed you are, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Any other questions? 

Mr. Wolff. I have not finished my responses. 

Mr. Tavenner. I do have another question. 

Mr. Doyle. If you have any more responses that are not deliberate 
and malicious falsehoods 

Mr. Wolff. I reject that inference and I think you have no right 
to make such inference. 

Mr. Doyle. When you deliberately and maliciously throw that 
into your propaganda, and you know it is deliberately false and ma- 
licious, I resent it. 

Mr. Wolff. I know nothing of the sort, and I do not agree to any 
type of allegation you may make on that basis. 

Mr. Doyle. We will leave it in the record, what has been said 
about it. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Wolff. I further decline, and I wish the record to clearly indi- 
cate that while my appearance before this committee is an acknowledg- 
ment of the subpena that I have received which I acknowledge a com- 
mittee of Congress to have the power to issue thereof, my appearance 
is not to be construed as an acknowledgment of this committee even 
under the Public Law 601 which set it up, and which by its very 
wording was a contravention of the first amendment of the Constitu- 
tion, and I refer to that section of Public Law 601 which instructs 
this committee to investigate subversive propaganda and activities, 
and I maintain that no idea is safe if any ideas be permitted to be 
suppressed, restrained, or trampled upon. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have one further question. Are you now a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party ? 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4223 

Mr. Wolff. In responding to this question, Mr. Chairman, since 
this committee has impugned the motives, the reasons, and the thinking 
and the beliefs of witnesses who have invoked their rights under the 
Constitution, I ask for the opportunity to explain my response to this 
question. 

Mr. Doyle. You are not going to be permitted to be argumentative, 
I will say. 

Mr. Tavenner. He has not responded to it yet. 

Mr. Doyle. What is your answer to the question, and then if you 
have any valid reasons, give them. Do you answer the question yes or 
no, or how, or do you decline to answer ? 

Mr. Wolff. Oiice before, Mr. Chairman, in the history of our 
country 

Mr. Doyle. Just a moment, I am not asking you for an argument, 
and I am not going to take more time from other witnesses even 
though you would like to take more time, and I am not going to grant 
it and let you be argumentative. 

Mr. Wolff. I am sure that you will state that all witnesses want to 
go home to their businesses, and you have stated before, and may I 
ask you what business, and what job that you have been instrumental 
in blacklisting me ? 

Mr. Doyle. I am not going 

Mr. Jackson. I move the witness be directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Doyle. There is a question asked you, and will you please answer 
it, and I will direct you to answer it, however you may. 

Mr. Wolff. May I have the question read ? 

(Question was read by the reporter.) 

Mr. Wolff. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Tavenner, I refuse to answer this 
question or questions similarly framed, devised, no matter how you 
cajole, and no matter how you frame them, and no matter how you 
wheedle or attempt to intimidate the witness, on the grounds that were 
1 to respond to such a question, I will have denied my sacred right and 
duty as a citizen of the United States. I refuse to answer this question 
on the basis that it is a direct violation of the first amendment of the 
Constitution, which grants all people the right of association, the right 
of ideas, the right of thought, of speech, of writing, and no matter 
how unpopular it may be 

Mr. Doyle. No, I am sorry ; you have already given us that under- 
standing. 

Mr. Wolff. Is this the same question or a new question ? 

Mr. Jackson. You said it was substantially the same question, as 
I recall. Would your previous answers to your previous reasons cover 
your answer to this question as well ? 

Mr. Wolff. I have not stated my reasons for declining to answer 
this question, Mr. Tavenner. I further decline to answer this question, 
and in so doing invoke my right under the fifth amendment, which 
gives me the right to be silent and for the reasons previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. I have no questions. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mr. Wolff . The witness may be excused. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Doyle. The committee will stand in recess for 10 minutes. 

(A short recess was taken.) 



4224 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Doyle. The hearing will please come to order, and counsel will 
proceed with the next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Strauss. 

Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand? Do you solemn- 
ly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God? 

Miss Comingore. I do. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. 

TESTIMONY OF DOROTHY COMINGORE (MRS. DOROTHY STRAUSS), 
ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL, WILLIAM B. ESTERMAN 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please? 

Miss Comingore. The name on the subpena was Dorothy Strauss. 
However, I would prefer to be called Dorothy Comingore, C-o-m-i-n- 
g-o-r-e. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is your present name Dorothy Strausss ? 

Miss Comingore. Well, I am divorced from Mr. Strauss, and so I 
use my professional and maiden name. 
. Mr. Tavenner. Would you spell your name, please ? 

Miss Comingore. I just did. 

Mr. Tavenner. I am sorry, I did not hear it. 

Mr. Doyle. May the record show that counsel is Mr. Esterman ? 

Mr. Esterman. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where were you born ? 

Miss Comingore. In Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you lived in Los Angeles all of your life? 

Miss Comingore. No; I lived in San Francisco and New York and 
various places. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been in Los Angeles at this 
time ? 

Miss Comingore. Well, off and on. I have been here for approxi- 
mately 15 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 

Miss Comingore. I am an actress. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been an actress in Los Angeles? 

Miss Comingore. Approximately 15 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you worked in the field of radio ? 

Miss Comingore. I wouldn't say I have worked in the field of radio. 
I did two broadcasts, one for the Government and one for someone 
else, but I am not primarily a radio actress at all. 

Mr. Tavenner. You then were primarily in the motion-picture 
field? 

Miss Comingore. And the stage and TV. 

Mr. Tavenner. What have been some of the major credits that you 
have had ? 

Miss Comingore. Well, the one I am proudest of is Citizen Kane. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Max Silver testified before the committee on 
Un-American Activities, and he stated that Dorothy Comingore was 
known to him in the Communist Party as "Linda," and that he knew 
you as a member of the Communist Party. Is that identification cor- 
rect, that is, were you a member of the Communist Party at any time? 

Miss Comingore. When did Mr. Silver say this? 

Mr. Tavenner. The 23d day of January of this year. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4225 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Comingore. Well, I would like very much to have Mr. Silver 
brought here so that my attorney could cross-examine him. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please? Were you 
a member of the Communist Party ? 

Miss Comingore. I am counting 10. I do that occasionally when I 
am angry. 

Mr. Jackson. We all do. 

Mr. Tavenner. I wish you would count 15 then. 

Miss Comingore. I would have to take off my shoe. 

Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you this question first. Do you know 
Mr. Max Silver? 

Mr. Esterman. Is the previous question withdrawn ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, for the moment. Do you know Mr. Max 
Silver ? 

Miss Comingore. I decline to answer that, and I would like to give 
three reasons why I decline to answer that. Two will be extremely 
brief, and one will' take possibly 2 minutes, and I am sure that you 
would allow me that courtesy. 

Mr. Doyle. Subject to the same rulings I have made to each of the 
other witnesses who have testified before you did, but proceed, because 
we want to cooperate and you shall have full opportunity. 

Miss Comingore. I would like to cooperate, because I have been 
sitting here for two days waiting to be called, and I have a 4 months' 
old baby at home and it has worked somewhat of a hardship. 

Mr. Doyle. Your counsel called me about that yesterday and I 
fixed a definite hour this afternoon in order to accommodate you, and 
so I do not think you should charge us with discourtesy. 

Miss Comingore. I am not charging you with anything. 

Mr. Doyle. We have an appointment. 

Miss Comingore. Don't jump to conclusions, please. 

Mr. Doyle. I am answering your statement. 

Miss Comingore. I would like to make this brief, and if you will 
allow me to make it brief 

Mr. Doyle. But under the facts, that is all we want. 

Miss Comingore. I will stick to facts. 

Mr. Doyle. All right. 

Miss Comingore. I don't live in a realm of fantasy. I refuse to 
answer the question because you cannot inquire into my opinions or 
associates under the first amendment, and in the second place, you 
cannot compel me to testify against myself under the fifth amend- 
ment, and my third reason is going to be very short, too. I am a 
simple person and my attitude toward my country, its institutions, and 
its people is a simple but passionate one, and that attitude can be 
summed up in one word, and that word is loyalty. Beyond that, my 
philosophy taught me by my mother is based on a compassion for all 
of the people struggling to live in dignity. 

Mr. Doyle. Miss Comingore, I do not mean to be unduly firm, but 
I see you are referring to 

Miss Comingore. To notes; yes. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, now, do not be argumentative, please. 

Miss Comingore. I loathe arguments and if you will allow me, I 
will be briefer than any witness you have had on the stand. 

Mr. Doyle. All right; that is a deal. We had one that took 1 
minute and a half. 



4226 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Miss Comingore. My father taught me to implement my compassion 
by fighting for the basic rights of people, those rights embodied in 
the Bill of Rights and the Emancipation Proclamation. You see, his 
forefathers fled the Inquisition in Spain, and eventually came to this 
country and helped to settle New Amsterdam. They went to Kentucky 
and established the first Presbyterian church in Kentucky. 

Mr. Tavenner. That could not be in response to my question. 

Mr. Doyle. I realize it. 

Miss Comingore. And they proudly fought in our Revolution, and 
for 4 years proudly defended 

Mr. Doyle. You are reading a statement, and I must say you are 
•welcome to file your statement with us. 

Miss Comingore. I am not reading a statement, and do I keep my 
eyes glued to the paper? 

Mr. Doyle. No ; of course you do not, because you have memorized 
part of it. 

Miss Comingore. I told you I would endeavor to be brief. 

Mr. Doyle. I know, but we cannot give you any exceptions that we 
have not been in a position to give others. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record. ) 

Miss Comingore. And another world war would be organized 
insanity. 

Mr. Doyle. We will agree with you. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Doyle. Any other question, counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you have the name of "Linda," and use the 
name of "Linda" and were you known by the name of "Linda" within 
the Communist Party? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Comingore. Look, you have asked the same kind of question, 
and I will give you the same kind of answer and the same Constitu- 
tion 

Mr. Doyle. Do you give the same answer that you gave to the other 
question, standing on the first and fifth amendments ? 

Miss Comingore. I stand on the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Esterman. May it be understood that the previous answer is 
incorporated ? 

Mr. Doyle, It is understood. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party ? 

Miss Comingore. Don't you get bored asking the same question? 

Mr. Tavenner. I get bored with the replies. 

Miss Comingore. Then it is reciprocity, isn't it, and so you get the 
same answer I gave previously. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you. now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Miss Comingore. You are cute. 

Mr. Doyle. Just a moment. 

Miss Comingore. The same answer as I gave previously. 

Mr. Tavenner. And based on the same grounds ? 

Miss Comingore. Yes. 

Mr. Esterman. May it be understood that the last two answers be 
answered as the same answer as the previous questions, and the same 
grounds are repeated. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4227 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Doyle. The next witness, Mr. Tavenner. 

Mr. Tavenner. I will call Mr. Paul Perlin. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Perlin, please raise your right hand. You solemn- 
ly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God? 

Mr. Perlin. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF PAUL PERLIN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, BEN 
MARGrOLIS AND THOMAS G. NEUSOM 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir? 

Mr. Perlin. May I have the privilege of assembling some material 
here ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. May the record show that the counsel are Mr. Margolis 
and Mr. Neusom. 

While you are assembling the material, Mr. Perlin, you under- 
stand, please, because I know you have been in the hearing room most 
of the day, at least, I will insist on my rulings as to you. as I have 
the others, and not permit you to be argumentative, and we want 
you to give every conscientious, valid reason you have, and if you 
have a prepared statement, we will be glad to receive it and file it. 

Mr. Perlin. I will give every conscientious, valid reason I have, 
I assure you. 

Mr. Doyle. And if you get argumentative, I will strike it out. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. Perlin. My name is Paul Robert Perlin, P-e-r-1-i-n. 

Mr. Tavenner. You are present pursuant to a subpena served upon 
you ? 

Mr. Perlin. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the date when the subpena was served 
on you for your appearance before this committee, or the approximate 
date ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Perlin. I am not quite clear on the date. It has been a long 
time ago, almost a year, I believe. 

Mr. Tavenner. And your appearance had been postponed from 
time to time? 

Mr. Perlin. By a series of telegrams. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Perlin? 

Mr. Perlin. I was born in Middletown, Conn., one of the New 
England States, the home of Town Forum  

Mr. Doyle. Just a moment. 

Mr. Perlin. One of the birthplaces of the Bill of Rights which this 
vindictive committee is trying to destroy. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, Mr. Perlin, let us have an understanding, but may 
you have and I have an understanding that I am not going to permit 
you to take the time of this committee to be argumentative, any more 
than I have anybody else. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 



4228 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Doyle. You will not say anything that is argumentive and 
impertinent to this committee. 

Mr. Tavenner. You now reside in Los Angeles ? 

Mr. Perlin. I do now reside in Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Perlin. To the best of my knowledge, approximately 19 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Briefly what has been your record of employment 
since 1935 ? 

Mr. Perlin. Since 1935 I worked in the film industry up until the 
time that I volunteered for service in the Armed Forces. 

Mr. Tavenner. Let me interrupt you there a moment. Will you 
be a little more specific about your employment in the film industry 
prior to your entering the service ? 

Mr. Perlin. Well ; as I recall, and in this industry we really go from 
place to place, and lose quite a bit of work in between — to the best of 
my knowledge, my main place of employment was Universal Pictures 
where I worked a number of years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, what was the nature of your work? That 
was the thing I was more particularly interested in.  

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Tavenner. You stated that you were a member of the Armed 
Forces for a period of time. 

Mr. Perlin. That is right. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the period of time ? 

Mr. Perlin. I volunteered for the Armed Forces at the end of 1943, 
despite the fact that I was a pre-Pearl Harbor father and was offered 
indefinite deferment by the personnel director of Universal, and I 
was in the Ninety-sixth Infantry Division, and I went overseas 
with that division and fought in the infantry from the assault 
waves on Leyte all the way through the campaign. I was on 
Okinawa for the first half hour of that campaign, where I was 
wounded and received some decorations, the Bronze Stars and Invasion 
Arrows, and commendation and divisional bulletin. 

(Further remarks made by the witness were ordered stricken from 
the record.) 

Mr. Jackson. There were a few other million people who engaged 
in the fight against fascism, including several members of the com- 
mittee, one of whom left two legs on the Normandy beachhead in the 
fight against fascism. 

Mr. Perlin. I saw screaming women and dead children and I saw 
burned villages and towns, and I saw destruction on a scale unparal- 
leled, and if you want to go from that to atomic and hydrogen destruc- 
tion, you can do it, Mr. Jackson, but count me out, and count out the 
millions of humanity in our country and the rest of the world. We 
won't be a party to it. 

I understood that Mr. Doyle was of the opinion that it looked to 
him like there would be another two or three more years of war in 
Korea, and I don't want to see other young lives shattered because of 
people who have lost their conscience. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you return from the Armed Forces ? 

Mr. Perlin. I returned from the Armed Forces at the end of 1945, 
and despite high-pressure sales talks on the part of my superior offi- 
cers, I respectfully declined becoming part of the Reserves, and I felt 
I did my share, and I wanted to return to my wife and children. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4229 

By the way, I didn't see my second child until he was 15 months old. 
Mr. Tavenner. Briefly what has been your employment since that 

time ? 

Mr. Perlin. Since the time of my return ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mr. Perlin. I was again employed in the motion-picture industry 
up until the time I was blacklisted on June 15. 

(Further remarks of the witness were ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Doyle. But you need not get your books out and prepare to 
read a lot of arguments, because I am not going to allow you to do it, 
and so let us have an understanding. 

Mr. Perlin. You are working on your own assumptions, and I 
don't plan to do any extensive reading. I have views, opinions, and 
ideas, and feelings, which have accumulated over a long period of 
time, and they are deep down inside of me and I am going to get 
them off my chest. 

Mr. Doyle. You are not going to get anything off this chest that 
is going in the record as a matter of your propaganda, and you might 
as well understand it. 

Mr. Perlin. If you call the truth propaganda, make the most of 
it, and you know dash well it is the truth. 

Mr. Doyle. The truth is never propaganda, except truthful prop- 
aganda. Now let us proceed. 

Mr. Perlin. You just contradicted yourself, and let that be on 
the record. 

Mr. Doyle. Let us proceed to the questions and answers. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Perlin, during the course of the hearings con- 
ducted by this committee Mr. Max Silver, who was formerly organi- 
zational secretary of the Communist Party for Los Angeles, testified 
that you at one time were organizer of a branch of the Communist 
Party composed of studio workers, and that he participated in a 
number of small functionary meetings, "he" meaning you, partici- 
pated in a number of small functionary meetings on the problems or 
the difficulties of the organization of that particulaur branch. 

Were you an organizer of the branch of the Communist Party 
composed of studio workers ? 

Mr. Perlin. I decline to answer that question and my declination 
is based on the following grounds : 

No. 1 : To answer that question would tend to degrade me as a 
citizen and as a union man who, in common with every decent Ameri- 
can, has an abhorrence of stool pigeons and any utterings of stool 
pigeons, and in the bylaws of our union with very few exceptions our 
meetings are kept secret for the very purpose that this sort of trash 
has again and again struck serious blows at decent, conscientious 
Americans. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I interrupt you ? I was not asking you about 
any question about secret meetings of your union. I was asking you 
about the Communist meetings of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Perlin. I am pointing out that secrecy at union meetings has 
been a result, among other things, of the infiltration of stool pigeons 
and other types of slime who used the confidence, faith, and decency 
of their fellow man as a weapon to destroy their fellow man, and 



4230 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

such people should be surrounded by contempt, hatred, and should 
die unlamented and be left to rot. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, I will ask you to tile that statement with us if 
you want to. 

Mr. Perlin. That isn't a statement. I have no statement. 

Mr. Doyle. Do not refer to it every second, then, as you read it; 
testify. 

Mr. Perlin. Now, look here, Mr. Doyle, my wife and children and 
my job are at stake and not yours at the moment, and yours will come 
up somewhat later, and I am confident in the ultimate judgment of 
the American people. 

Mr. Doyle. You are going to abide by the procedure of this 
committee. 

Mr. Perlin. I am a very patient man and I am confident of the- 
outcome. 

Mr. Doyle. I am trying to be very patient with you, sir, but yon 
are not going to get any special favors from this committee, so you 
might as well know it. 

Mr. Perlin. I am not concerned with any special favors from this 
committee. 

Mr. Doyle. Then you abide by the rules and procedures, and we 
will get along all right. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Doyle. You just go ahead and answer your questions, and don't 
ask for any special treatment. 

Mr. Perlin. I am not asking for special treatment. 

Mr. Doyle. And I am going to insist that you testify and not read 
your statement; if you have a statement, give it to us, and we will 
file it. 

Mr. Perlin. I am not reading from any statement; I have some 
notations here. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Perlin. I am not an attorney. The things I feel in all good 
faith and in conscience as reasons are my reasons as I understand 
them. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you have any legal reasons for not answering the 
question, Mr. Perlin? 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Perlin. I further decline to answer on the grounds contained 
in Public Law 601, which, as I understand it, is supposed to commis- 
sion the committee to investigate into areas of subversive propaganda 
activities and to decide on remedial legislation. This Public Law 601, 
I contend, by the very nature of its language, is operating in the sphere 
of ideas, of opinions, of associations, and it is operating in the very 
area which the first amendment grants to the American people. There- 
fore, I claim that Public Law 601 is an illegitimate offspring of Con- 
gress, and that this body should be decommissioned by Congress. 

I further decline on the grounds contained in the first amendment, 
which states, to the best of my knowledge, that Congress shall pass 
no law abridging freedom of speech, press, or of association, and by 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4231 

no law I understood it to mean no law. Maybe I am very naive, but 
that is the way I understood it, 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 

record.) 

Mr. Perlin. Because this committee cannot but be illegal for that 
purpose and for that reason. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, I will ask you to not read your statement; and if' 
you have a written statement, you can file it. 

Mr. Perlin. I am not reading it. 

Mr. Doyle. Do not look at it every second. 

Mr. Perlin. Don't tell me how to go about my testimony. It is my 
wife and family that is suffering, and not yours. 

Mr. Doyle. We will tell you the procedures of the committee. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Perlin. Again you don't seem to like the truth, and I think it 
was a very mild descriptive phrase for what this committee has done 
to many, many people. 

Mr. Jackson. To this point insult has been pretty much of a one- 
way street before this committee, and we have taken a lot of abuse 
from you and others like you. Just a moment, and let me 

Mr. Perlin. Facts and truth are not insults, Mr. Jackson, unless 
people are in their own minds uneasy in their conscience. 

Mr. Jackson. I am not at all uneasy in my conscience, and I imagine- 
my conscience is considerably easier to live with so far as I am con- 
cerned, than yours is, Mr. Perlin. 

Mr. Perlin. The only possible reason might be extreme callousness 
and hardening of certain aspects of that conscience. 

Mr. Doyle. Let us get back to the question, Mr. Tavenner. Will you 
answer the question, please, Mr. Perlin ? 

Mr. Perlin. I continue my answer, and I further decline on the 
grounds contained in the fourth amendment to our Bill of Rights,, 
the amendment which deals with invasions of privacy. I contend 
that this committee has invaded the privacy of the thought, the associa- 
tions and through stool-pigeon participation has dragged people be- 
fore it and subjected them to severe punishment, and I consider this, 
a very clear and strong invasion of privilege as I understand that 
amendment. 

I further decline on the portion of the sixth amendment which as I 
understand it deals primarily with the question of due process of law. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record. ) 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Perlin, we have been more than decent with you 
and I am not going to go much further with you — just a moment. You 
are in this forum and we can take so much despicable insult from you 
and no more. You understand ? 

Mr. Perlin. My family and I have taken terrible punishment and 
suffering through this committee, and its acts, and how can you sit 
there drawing your check every week, when other people are going 
through severe hardship and act so extremely proper. 

Mr. Jackson. May I suggest that the witness be cautioned by the 
Chair as to personal references to members of this committee or of 
the Conaress of the United States? 



4232 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Perlin. I have made no reference to the Congress of the United 
States. I said this was an illegitimate committee, and I am solely 
concerned with this committee, and its sphere of action and I mean no 
reflection upon the Congress. 

Mr. Jackson. I consider your last remark to be insulting in a very 
high degree. 

Mr. Perlin. What you consider is your own opinion, and you are 
just one person among 2% billion on the face of this globe, and not 
the most important person, I assure you. 

Mr. Doyle. Will you proceed. And I will order this room cleared 
in a moment. If you people who are laughing out loud so it disturbs 
the peace, we will not have it, and this witness, of course, is trying to 
put on a show, and I am going to stop it in a minute or two. 

Mr. Perlin. I am not concerned with putting on any show, I assure 
you, and I am merely concerned with doing my best to preserve the 
rights which I think are vital to all of us. 

Mr. Doyle. Do not read your speech. 

Mr. Perlin. I am not reading my speech, and don't prompt me so. 
I think I am over 21. 

Mr. Doyle. I think that you are, too. 

Mr. Perlin. I want to further state that under the due-process 
clause this committee has not while acting, in my opinion, as a body 
which is semijudicial in character, and which inflicts punishment and 
allows no cross-examination, and I think it departs so far from other 
legislative bodies in acting in this manner that I feel a witness is en- 
titled to the right of cross-examination, because the method of this 
committee is very foreign to the best of my knowledge of that of any 
other committee of Congress I have ever heard of or read about, and 
I would like to read American history. 

I further decline to answer on the basis of the seventh amendment to 
the Constitution, where I feel the cruel and unusual punishment sector 
of it, where I am convinced as a matter of fact that it means the liveli- 
hood and the families and the futures of every person before this 
committee who asserted his constitutional prerogatives and did not 
cooperate in the manner, shape, or form this committee so desired, has 
suffered cruel and unusual punishment without due process of law. 

I further decline to answer on the basis of the ninth amendment, 
which stipulates as I understand it that the enumeration and consti- 
tution of certain rights does not mean to deprecate or disparage all 
other rights which reside in the American people, and these rights are 
many and varied. Among them I consider as very fundamental the 
right to work, free from harrassment, free from stool pigeons, and 
free from inquisitions, and free from any pressures other than the 
pressure of whether a man is capable of doing the work he is qualified 
for, which I think should be the only condition. 

Also, the right to security in persons and property, and I believe 
that when a man works in an industry, as I have in the motion-picture 
industry since the age of 17 from the labor gang to slugging on scaf- 
fold gangs and the grip department, I feel that there is in a sense a 
property right here, particularly when my employment record has 
been a commendable one and no employer at any time has ever raised 
a question of efficiency, as a condition for my working or not working. 

I also feel that under the ninth amendment that a human being 
should be judged not by slogans, not by propaganda, remarks of 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4233 

individuals, and not by newspaper headlines, but by their essential 
dignity and their essential decency and by the quality of their relation- 
ship with their fellow human beings, and by their worth as human 
beings, and not by what the passing headlines may say as a result of 
hearings of this 'kind. I am absolutely confident that in the not 
distant future many, many things which have been done to people 
here will be looked upon with shame and horror by the American 
people. I am convinced of that. 

Further, I decline to answer on the ground contained in the tenth 
amendment to our Constitution, which as I understand it is the dele- 
gated powers amendment, which stipulates that all those powers 
which the people have not delegated to the Congress reside in the 
people themselves. I feel that in that amendment is contained the 
whole area of thinking, of association, of all of the things decent 
and fine and human which this committee is violating. 

I further state in my declination that I decline on the grounds con- 
tained in the fifth amendment which by the way in the unanimous 
opinion of, I believe, every competent legal authority in our country 
is the very pillar and foundation of the entire Constitution and Bill 
of Rights. It is particularly that portion which states no person may 
be required to bear witness against himself. Strike that portion from 
our Constitution and you have tyranny, compulsion, and the loss and 
destruction of the entire Bill of Rights and the Constitution itself, 
and in further declination under the fifth amendment. 

(Further remarks made by the witness were ordered stricken from 
the record.) 

Mr. Perlin. That is a verbatim quote from your own transcript, 
and do you deny its truth ? 

Mr. Jackson. I stand on it, Mr. Perlin, and I still feel that we might 
find out a great deal about the termites who are at work trying to 
destroy the rest of the Bill of Rights ; that is far from an advocacy of 
the repeal of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Perlin. Your language is very plain and explicit here. 

Mr. Jackson. I can understand my language better than you can, 
Mr. Perlin. 

Mr. Perlin. I can understand it very well. 

Mr. Jackson. I have read the testimony, and I gave the testimony. 

Mr. Perlin. It happens to be the very pillar on which the Bill of 
Rights rests, and you cannot remove it without removing the Bill of 
Rights. 

Mr. Jackson. I agree with you perfectly. I say if it was not for 
the fifth amendment to the Bill of Rights, we would find out where 
a lot of termites were trying to destroy the structure of the Consti- 
tution of the United States. 

Mr. Perlin. That is the same language that tyrants have used 
through the centuries in trying to compel people and force them into 
testimony against themselves. There is no essential difference. 

Mr. Jackson. Heaven help us if they ever have their way with our 
Constitution. 

Mr. Perlin. Heaven help us if Mr. Jackson ever has his way with 
our Constitution. 

Mr. Jackson. Our Constitution is much safer with me than it is 
with you. 

95008—52 — pt. 4 9 



4234 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Mr. Perlin. I doubt your veracity, with a capital doubt and a capi- 
tal veracity. 

Mr. Doyle. Have you finished answering the question, Mr. Perlin? 
Have you given your reasons for it? 

Mr. Perlin. I have already answered the question. 

Mr. Doyle. All right. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Perlin, are you now a member of the Commu- 
nist Party ? 

Mr. Perlin. Mr. Tavenner, believe me, and if you will permit me 
a bit of humor, I consider you as subtle as the proverbial bull in the 
china closet, and I decline to answer on the previously stated grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Thank you. 

Mr. Doyle. Even though that is an insult and everyone would 
consider it so, I will leave it in the record because that is the level of 
most of your testimony. 

Mr. Perlin. I reject that statement of yours, Mr. Doyle. The level 
of my testimony comes from my heart and my innermost feelings, 
and I assure you that that is where it comes from, and I don't and 
the very fact that you are hostile to me is one of the highest compli- 
ments that could be paid to me. 

Mr. Jackson. May we on the committee say amen to that. 

Mr. Perlin. And I will say double amen to your amen. 

Mr. Doyle. Are there any other questions ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no questions. 

Mr. Doyle. May Mr. Perlin be excused ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mr. Perlin. 

Mr. Perlin. I have no thanks for you for the many difficulties you 
have caused my family. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Doyle. The witnesses under subpena are directed to come back 
tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock and the committee will go into public 
session tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. 

(Thereupon, at 5 p. m., a recess was taken until Tuesday, October 7, 
1952, at 10 a. m.) 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES AMONG PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 
IN THE LOS ANGELES AREA 



TUESDAY, OCTOBER 7, 1952 

United States House of Representatives, 

Subcommittee of the Committee 

on Un-American Activities, 

Los Angeles, Calif. 

PUBLIC HEARING 

The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met, 
pursuant to recess, at 10 : 10 a. m., in room 518, Federal Building, Hon. 
Clyde Doyle (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Subcommittee members present : Representatives Clyde Doyle and 
Donald L. Jackson. 

Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel ; William 
A. Wheeler, investigator; and John W. Carrington, clerk. 

Mr. Doyle. We will proceed. The morning session, will please come 
to order, and we will proceed. May I again reiterate that which our 
distinguished chairman, Mr. Wood, said on every occasion when the 
sessions were opened while he was here, that we will not knowingly 
tolerate any expressions of applause or disapproval in the hearing 
room. I know you will all cooperate and be good sports and make it 
easier for the witnesses and the committee to work. We appreciate 
very much and expect that cooperation. 

Are you ready, Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. I would like to call Betty Selden. 

Miss Selden. Could I ask not to be photographed while I am here ? 

Mr. Doyle. The press claims their rights under the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Margolis. Did you read the decision that came down yesterday ? 

Mr. Doyle. I am not going to make a rule that the free press of 
America cannot make pictures in an open hearing. 

Mr. Margolis. Did you read the decision that came down yesterday 
that there was no necessity of testifying under such circumstances? 

Mr. Doyle. That was a different situation entirely, and it was on 
television, and it does not apply. 

Mr. Margolis. The principle that this interferes with testifying 
applies. 

Mr. Doyle. I am not going to interfere with the free press on any 
occasion and the public taking pictures as these people are doing, and 
I will continue to seek their cooperation in not taking a picture of a 
witness when she is taking the oath, and I am sure that you will 
cooperate at that point. 

4235 



4236 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 
Miss Selden. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF BETTY S. SELDEN, ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL, 

BEN MARGOLIS 

. Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ? 

Miss Selden. My name is Betty S. Selden. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you represented by counsel ? 

Miss Selden. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record? 

Mr. Margolis. Ben Margolis. 

Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell your last name ? 

Miss Selden. S-e-1-d-e-n. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where were you born ? 

Miss Selden. I was born in a small town near Kiev, Russia, and it is 
an odd name and so I won't tell you about it, you wouldn't recognize it. 
It is a very odd name and so I won't tell you the name. It sounds very 
odd. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to the United States ? 

Miss Selden. I came here as an infant with my father, and I am 
naturalized through him in 1914. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a resident of Los Angeles? 

Miss Selden. I have lived in Los Angeles since 1929, except for 1 
year when I went to the East and returned. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles? 

Miss Selden. Since 1929 continuously except for 1 year, I went 
away and I came back, and I went to work in the East during the war 
and I came back a year later. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation or profession ? 

Miss Selden. I am a registered social case worker. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where are you employed? 

Miss Selden. I am employed by the county of Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you held that position ? 

Miss Selden. I have worked continuously since April of 19?>1, ex- 
cept the 1 year when I went to Washington, and I worked in Wash- 
ington during the war and I then returned to my job. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee has had testimony by Mr. Harold 
Ashe, of the decision of the Communist Party to form Communist 
Party cells composed of members of the professions. We have been 
for some time following that testimony, and investigating the extent 
to which Communist Party organizations have been formed within 
various professions. According to the testimony of Mr. Ashe, one 
reason, at least, for the formation of those cells was that the persons 
who were members of it would enjoy a special privilege of secrecy 
that ordinary members of the Communist Party do not enjoy, prin- 
cipally because of the sensitive positions that they may occupy. 

Alice K. Bennett appeared before the committee in Washington, 
on May 22, 1952, as a witness, and in the course of the testimony she 
divulged the fact that she, herself, had been a member of the Com- 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4237 

munist Party from 1939 to 1942, and that she had been assigned to a 
social workers 1 group of the Communist Party. Now, she identified 
yon as a member of that group. 

Were yon a member of a group of the Communist Party organized 
among the social workers, or consisting principally or even partially 
of social workers? 

Miss Selden. I decline to answer that question, and I would like to 
give my reasons, and I will not be very long. I would like to say just 
a little bit. I have had, since May when I was subpenaed, the benefit 
of the services of two attorneys, and after all of those 5 months I 
realized that the answers I would make were out of my own heart 
and my own feelings and my own thoughts. I am a very ordinary 
American person and I feel I speak for a lot of very ordinary people. 

Mr. Doyle. Now, may I interrupt. You are not asked to speak for 
any other person, and merely for yourself. If you have a legal ground 
or a legal basis for refusing to answer the question, why we would like 
to have it. 

Miss Selden. Yes ; I speak on legal grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. But nothing beyond that. 

Miss Selden. I speak on legal grounds, and that question violates 
my rights under the first and fifth amendments, and I think you are 
invading my privileges of affiliation, and I don't wish to be a witness 
against myself. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Miss Selden. I decline to answer that question on the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. 

May I ask, Miss Selden, you volunteered the information that you 
worked at Washington 1 year. In what department of the Govern- 
ment did you work for 1 year in Washington ? 

Miss Selden. During the time I worked there, I worked for a period 
of time for the National Red Cross, and then I worked for the Bureau 
of Public Assistance of the District of Columbia. 

Mr. Doyle. And what year was that ? 

Miss Selden. I was there from 1942 to 1943, and I left here to go 
there, and then I returned here. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. 

Are there any other questions ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Doyle. May the witness be excused ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Miss Selden. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you ready for the next witness? 

Mr. Doyle. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. I would like to call Sarajo Lord. 

Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Miss Lord. I do. 



4238 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

TESTIMONY OF SARAJO LORD, ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL, 
THOMAS G. NEUSOM AND BEN MARGOLIS 

Mr. Netjsom. Mr. Chairman, since there is no one seated behind the 
table, I wonder if we could move this over so that we would have more 
room and perhaps Mr. Margolis and I could both sit at the table with 
the witness. 

Mr. Doyle. Certainly, we will be glad to do that. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please? 

Miss Lord. Sara jo Lord. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your name? 

Miss Lord. S-a-r-a-j-o L-o-r-d. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify themselves for the 
record. 

Mr. Netjsom. Thomas G. Neusom and Ben Margolis. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where were you born? 

Miss Lord. In Chicago, El. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a resident of Los Angeles ? 

Miss Lord. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a resident of Los Angeles? 

Miss Lord. For most of the time since 1930. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your work or employment? 

Miss Lord. I work as an organizational worker. 

Mr. Tavenner. What type of organizational worker, I mean what 
organization ? 

Miss Lord. First, I would like to ask why I am here. 

Mr. Tavenner. You are here to answer the questions which I expect 
to ask you regarding various activities which the committee is informed 
you have engaged in. 

Miss Lord. I see. I am not to know the source of your information ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I think it will be quite apparent when I ask the 
questions. 

Miss Lord. I see; then if I may answer this question- in my way, I 
will be very happy to. When I was subpenaed to come before you I 
had of course to investigate why. I am satisfied with miy own loyalty T 
and I am satisfied with my devotion to my country. 

Mr. Tavenner. And you are not answering my question at all. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Mr. Tavenner. You stated you were an organizational worker, as 
I understood it. 

Miss Lord. That is right. 

Mr. Tavenner. What organization have you been employed by? 

Miss Lord. I want to answer that, if I may, in my own fashion, and 
I will try to keep it responsive, and I will try to keep it pertinent and 
I will try to keep it down in time. 

Mr. Doyle. Will you please tell what organization, and then if 
there are any further questions, you can give your reasons why you 
refuse to answer, if you do, and it is a simple question, what 
organization. 

Miss Lord. I do not think it is a simple question, Mr. Doyle, and 
I do not think it is a simple question because if this committee were a 
constitutionally legal committee I doubt that it would be asking such 
questions. I find that my devotion to the Constitution is unquestioned 
and I find that I must investigate your intentions. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4239 

Mr. Doyle. You are not here to investigate our intentions, and we 
are a duly constituted committee of the United States Congress operat- 
ing under Public Law 601, and you are duly subpenaed to come and 
answer our proper questions. Now, if you have any grounds, legal 
grounds, why you do not answer, we want you to manifest those 
grounds and reasons, and you have two distinguished lawyers by your 
side who are well able to advise you of your constitutional rights and 
no doubt they have already. But I do not think that this is the place 
in answer to this question for you to give your philosophy of life, or 
your opinions of this committee. 

Miss Lord. I assumed I was here because of my opinions. 

Mr. Doyle. Well no one has told you so. 

Miss Lord. I cannot think of any other reason. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, all right, then do not assume too much. For the 
purpose of this question, I am directing you to answer the question as 
asked. 

Miss Lord. Then may I answer as follows : If the Constitution of 
the United States, formulated and written by our forefathers, out of 
their recent experience with tyranny, did so and framed it in such a 
fashion as to prevent further tyranny, and to protect me and other 
citizens, and under one of the clauses providing such protection, the 
fourteenth amendment which calls for the illegality of any Member of 
Congress or the Senate or any representative in Government, were he 
to have been a part of a rebellion. 

(Further remarks made by the witness were ordered stricken from 
the record.) 

Mr. Doyle. All right, but that does not refer to what you are 
referring to. Plead the Constitution and all of it if you want to, 
and we are glad to have you stand on your constitutional rights. 

Miss Lord. Then let me move on to the fifteenth. 

Mr. Jackson. That will leave the two reasons as given for not 
testifying. 

Miss Lord. On the basis of the first amendment which provides a 
guaranty for me that I shall not be restricted in my rights of speech 
and my rights to think and my rights of association. 

(Further remarks made by the witness were ordered stricken from 
the record.) 

Mr. Doyle. Let us have this understanding, you have testified that 
you are an organizational secretary, or worker, and now our question 
is, what organization. 

Miss Lord. I see. 

Air. Doyle. Now, that is all. 

Miss Lord. I am trying to tell you. 

(Further remarks made by the witness were ordered stricken from 
the record.) 

Mr. Doyle. All we are asking you, you volunteered the statement 
that you are an organizational worker, and now are you ashamed of 
what your organizations are that you are working for, or were, I do 
not want to assume that. 

Miss Lord. Don't. 

Mr. Doyle. But you are dodging the question. 

Miss Lord. I am not dodging the question. 

Mr. Doyle. Then please answer. 



4240 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Miss Lord. Let me point out that you have put in hours and hours of 
carrying on your special kind of propaganda, and I am here for a few 
minutes. 

Mr. Doyle. We are not going to let you take even a few minutes 
to deliberately propagandize the philosophy which you may 

Miss Lord. You can't say the word "peace" in this forum? 

Mr. Doyle. Yes, and I am in Congress because of my interest in 
world peace, and that is the primary reason I am there, young lady. 

Miss Lord. May I ask you a question, Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. Doyle. No ; please answer your question. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record. ) 

Mr. Doyle. We are trying to be courteous and dignified, and will 
you cooperate with us and help us to be able to be, in spite of your 
unwillingness. 

Miss Lord. I have very deep convictions about America. 

Mr. Doyle. We are glad you have, and we want you to have deep 
convictions. 

Miss Lord. I intend to maintain them. 

Mr. Doyle. But we are in a position where this is not the forum 
for you to debate those convictions, except as they be in proper answer 
to a proper question. But will you please answer the question, and 
I direct you to do so. It is a very proper question. Do you know 
what the question is, and to refresh your memory you were asked : 
What organizations you are working for? 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record.) 

Miss Lord. Mr. Doyle, is it not responsive and material that in one 
place in this guide it speaks of an appeal made by one of the organiza- 
tions against listing it? 

Mr. Doyle. This does not refer to any guide, you are simply asked 
in response to your own voluntary statement that you. are an organiza- 
tional worker; what organizations? 

Miss Lord. And I am trying to answer that question. 

Mr. Doyle. You are avoiding it. 

Miss Lord. Yes, there is indeed a further legal reason, the legal 
reason provided me by the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Doyle. Very good, you have given the fourteenth, the fifteenth, 
and the first. 

Miss Lord. And now the fifth, and the fifth which guarantees me 
protection against incriminating myself. Now, I have wanted to make 
clear that the organizations listed by you 

Mr. Doyle. It is not a question of what we have listed, the question 
is what organizations are you a worker for, that is the whole question. 

Miss Lord. I decline to answer because this is an invasion of my 
constitutional rights and I will not bear witness against myself. 

Mr. Doyle. We do not want you to bear witness against yourself, 
and 

Miss Lord. I think it is unavoidable because you make the rules. 

Mr. Doyle. The pleading of the fifth amendment is ample in the 
judgment of this committee, and our counsel, for a refusal. 

Miss Lord. It is a most unresponsive answer, Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. Any time. 

Miss Lord. Certainly the circumstances in which it is asked must 
have some effect on the answer. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4241 

Mr. Doyle. You have pleaded the fifth amendment and that is ample 
in our judgment, and will also be for the refusal to answer any further 
questions. 

Miss Lord. I hope Mr. Jackson sanctions that. 

Mr. Doyle. Are there any other questions? 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you now hold any official position with the south- 
ern California chapter of the National Council of the Arts, Sciences, 
and Professions? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Lord. On your list of verboten organizations, I think that there 
is the southern California chapter of the Arts and Sciences and for 
the reasons that I stated and some of the reasons that I did not state, 
including the fifth amendment, I will not answer that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time present a signature card to the 
Security First National Bank of Los Angeles, the purpose of which 
was to authorize you to draw funds on the councirs account at that 
bank? 

Miss Lord. This is the same question, I believe, and for the same 
reasons I will not answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. I hand you four photostatic copies of checks over 
the signature of Arts, Sciences and Professional Council, by Sarajo 
Lord, and Helen Blair, bearing the dates of July 2, July 3, July 6, and 
July 13, 1951, and all payable to Sarajo Lord, and each in the amount 
of $49.80. Will you examine those checks and state whether or not 
they represented the payment of salary or salaries to you, as an officer 
of that organization? 

(Witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Lord. Mr. Tavenner, did you want me to answer your ques- 
tion? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Miss Lord. May I say first of all that I am shocked and I think any 
American citizen is shocked at the disclosure that you have available 
to yourselves, all of the private information of any person through 
collusion with their bank or their doctor or their law T yer or their priest. 
I give the answer given previously for the reasons given previously. 

Mr. Doyle. May I assure you that we have no knowledge of any 
collusion with any bank or with any priest, or any person you men- 
tioned, we do have the power of subpena under Public Law 601 ; it is 
the power given us by the United States Congress. 

Miss Lord. Which has to do with your activity in discovering sub- 
versive propaganda. 

Mr. Doyle. That is right, under Public Law 601 and that is why 
we are here, it is to discover whether or not you have any knowledge 
of any subversive propaganda or activities, and if you do we would 
appreciate your telling us. However, I am not going to urge you to 
do anything which you conscientiously feel you should not do, due to 
your constitutional rights. 

Miss Lord. Mr. Doyle, I would like to report to you the activity 
which I consider the most forceful and violent against our Constitu- 
tion which is carried on by this committee, and I would like to report 
to you that there have been instances of the most frightful violence 
against the Negro people and the Jewish people in Mr. Jackson's area, 
and it is my understanding that he said in Detroit that he had issued a 
strong statement against this. I do not think that that is sufficient. 



4242 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

I did something more. I reported that all day long, and I reported 
that activity against the home of Mr. Bailey, on Dunsmuir, so that 
there could be a large and broad meeting of people to protect not in 
words but with their bodies the home of Mr. Bailey and his family. 

Mr. Jackson. That is a very fine speech but that is hardly responsive 
to the question as to whether or not your signature appears on the 
check. 

Miss Lord. I have already answered that. 

Mr. Jackson. You have declined to answer it for the reasons stated. 

Miss Lord. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the photostatic copies of the checks, 
and ask that they be marked as "Lord Exhibits Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4,' 7 
respectively. 

Mr. Doyle. They are received and it is so marked. 

(The documents above referred to, marked "Lord Exhibits Nos. l r 
2, 3, and 4" are filed herewith.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Miss Lord, I would now like for you to examine a 
photostatic copy of a pamphlet which I am having handed to you, 
and it is entitled "The Truth About Korea," and will you tell the com- 
mittee please what you know about the publication and dissemination 
of that pamphlet by the Arts, Sciences, and Professions Council if 
you know. 

(Witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Lord. Mr. Tavenner, would you be kind enough to repeat the 
question ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Read the question, please. 

(Question was read by the reporter.) 

Miss Lord. Mr. Tavenner, I would like to say why I believe I am 
asked this question. This is a pamphlet, I see, that was an exposition 
of the circumstances surrounding the war and the beginning of war 
in Korea. I think that it is significant that I am asked about this if 
for no other reason tha t the last lines, where it says : 

It is the road to peace, the first step on that road is to stop hostilities in 
Korea ; we must take that step now at whatever cost of face. It is not face that 
is at stake, but our own lives. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is also a document which in every instance where 
it has an opportunity vilifies and abuses the non-Communist govern- 
ment of South Korea, and extravagantly praises the Communist dic- 
tatorship in the north, does it not ? 

Miss Lord. I haven't seen that in this, Mr. Tavenner, and I have 
seen that attack in the newspapers. In the revelations by the United 
States Army, Syngman Rhee was responsible for thousands of mur- 
ders of people who wanted a democratic Korea. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, now, will you tell the committee what you 
know about the printing of that publication by the Council of the 
Arts, Sciences and Professions, and its dissemination. 

Miss Lord. I feel that most especially under the first amendment 
which I can see may be outlawed if Mr. Velde has his book burning 
bill 

Mr. Tavenner. It was outlawed as far as this type of hearing was 
concerned by the Supreme Court of the United States in the Trumbull 
case, was it not ? 

Miss Lord. I think that that is interesting, and that duly constituted 
body has had one effect on legislation, and that was to do away with 
the first amendment of the Constitution. 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4243 

Mr. Doyle. Now, I want to call your attention that you recognize 
through your counsel that we also try to keep up with what the law 
is. 

Miss Lord. It. should be easy, when you make it. 

Mr. Doyle. While we make the law, the courts define the law. 

Miss Lord. I hav& found, Mr. Doyle, that you ignore the law, and 
that you are above the law. 

Mr. Doyle. No. We do not try to be, even though some other people 
do try to be. 

Miss Lord. Mr. Doyle, I would like to go back to this list of sub- 
versive organizations. 

Mr. Doyle. No, will you please answer the question that our counsel 
has asked you, I directed you to answer, or stand on whatever rights 
you feel that you have. 

Miss Lord. Then, I will refuse to answer this question for reasons, 
previously stated, the fifth amendment. 

I wonder that you asked us to come up here. 

Mr. Jackson. We could write on a small page the amount of testi- 
mony that we are getting from most of the witnesses. 

Miss Lord. You don't want the testimony. 

Mr. Jackson. We don't want propaganda, and I think that this is 
an excellent point, Mr. Chairman, that there has been a great deal of 
talk about this committee and whether or not it is actually investigat- 
ing Communist propaganda. This booklet, The Truth about Korea, 
as I understand it parrots the line of the Soviet foreign offices, the 
statements contained in it can be read any day in the Communist 
Daily Worker, and in the Peoples' Daily World. Now, propaganda 
does not spring fullblown like Minerva ; propaganda is the expression 
of the minds of men, of the lips of men, and comes from the hearts 
of men. 

Miss Lord. And also it 

Mr. Jackson. And propaganda is the length and shadow of such 
an institution as the Arts, Sciences and Professional Council. It is 
particularly Communist propaganda which as I say can be read any 
day in the Communist Daily Worker. 

Mr. Doyle. May I ask, will you please answer counsel's question? 
And I direct you to, or else 

Miss Lord. I have answered it, Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. You have given the full answer to it as far as you want. 
I understand, then. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Stanley Roberts, a screen writer and former 
member of the Communist Party, testified before this committee on 
May 20, 1952, that he understood that this pamphlet had been sent to 
practically the entire mailing list of the Screen Writers' Guild. Will 
you tell the committee how the Council of the Arts, Sciences and Pro- 
fessions procured the mailing list of the Screen Writers' Guild, if it 
did? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Lord. Mr. Tavenner, I think that your question embodied 
some assumptions which I cannot agree to, but I also refuse to answer 
your question for the previously stated grounds, the guaranties mainly 
by the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. What assumption is it that you do not agree to? 



4244 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

Miss Lord. I would rather not go into further discussion on it with 
you. 

Mr. Tavenner. Why? 

Miss Lord. I have already stated that I decline to answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. For the reasons that you had assigned \ 

Miss Lord. For the fifth amendment, on the grounds of the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Miss Lord. Because of the guaranties given me in the fifth amend- 
ment, I refuse to answer that question,. 

(Statement made by the witness was ordered stricken from the 
record. ) 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party ? 

Miss Lord. And that question I refuse to answer for the same reason. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. I have no questions. 

Mr. Doyle. May I see this booklet? 

Mr. Neusom. I think on the question before the last, you said that 
the answer was being stricken, at that time ; and did you amend your 
ruling, or was the entire answer to that question stricken? 

Mr. Doyle. Not to the extent that she properly pleaded the con- 
stitutional grounds of refusing to answer. We always want them 
to do that. < 

I notice this pamphlet was produced by your council, entitled "The 
Truth About Korea." 1 notice on the'second page from the end, the 
first paragraph under the caption "Conclusions," and I read: 

As a matter of evidence, the press, the President, and the Pentagon have 
not only distorted the truth, they.have turned it inside out. 

There is this further identification of the pamphlet: On the last 
page thereof it is printed, "Southern California Chapter of the Na- 
tional Council of the Arts, Sciences and Professions, 1586 Crossroads 
of the World, Hollywood 28, California." There is no date upon it 
that I see. 

Have you any knowledge, Miss Lord, of the date when this pub- 
lication was issued ? 

Miss Lord. Mr. Doyle, that is substantially the same question I 
have been asked several times, which I have refused to answer, stand- 
ing on the fifth amendment ; and I refuse to answer this one on the 
same grounds. 

Mr. Doyle. Are you offering this, Mr. Counsel? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. It is already an exhibit. 

Mr. Doyle. Are there any questions, Mr. Jackson ? 

Mr. Jackson. I have no questions. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Miss Lord. 

Is there any reason why the witness should not be excused? 

Mr. Tavenner. There is no reason for not excusing the witness. 

Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused. 

(The witness was excused.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, that is all we have for the present. 

Mr. Doyle. Before ending the proceedings of the committee, I 
wish to make this statement : 

Several of the witnesses who declined to answer whether or not 
they were Communists now, or ever had been, have stated in the 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4245 

hearing room that this committee was both judge and jury. It is so 
absolutely a statement that is not founded on fact that I wish the 
record to show the status of this committee in such hearings as this. 

First, let me refer to the hearings before the full committee when 
the Honorable John S. Wood was acting as chairman prior to the 
hearing by the subcommittee constituted by Mr. Jackson and myself. 
If before such a committee there had been any decision or if there 
is any decision by that committee arising out of hearings before it as 
a full committee, that full committee can neither punish nor convict 
nor cite any person who appeared before it for contempt, unless the 
full committee voted so to do, and then that full committee reported 
to the United States Congress its recomendation that the witness be 
cited for contempt, and then not unless Congress itself voted to cite 
the witness for contempt. 

Then following a citation by the United States Congress for con- 
tempt, the witness would have a right to go to the district court and 
defend on a prosecution by the United States attorney. After appear- 
ing in the district court, the witness would have a right to appeal to 
the appellate court ; and after a hearing in the appellate court, they 
would have the right to appear in the United States Supreme Court. 

I just wish to emphasize that this full committee is not a judge and 
jury. 

Now then, let me call your attention to the status of this subcom- 
mittee, or any subcommittee of the full Committee on Un-American 
Activities. If Mr. Jackson and I, as a subcommittee, felt that it was 
right, under the law, to recommend any wutness before us be cited for 
contempt, we would have to report that to the full Un-American Activ- 
ities Committee, and that committee would have to vote to approve 
our recommendation. And after the full membership of the Un- 
American Activities Committee recommended or approved a recom- 
mendation of Mr. Jackson and myself as a subcommittee, that recom- 
mendation would have to go first to the United States Congress and 
have to be approved by Congress, and then, if Congress approved the 
citation, it would then go to the United States district attorney for 
prosecution, and then to the district court, and then the appellate 
court, and then the United States Supreme Court. 

I just wish to emphasize, therefore, for the record, and for the in- 
formation of the public, that this committee is not in fact a judge 
and jury, because we have no power of punishment. 

For several days we had before us members of the California bar, 
lawyers; and at that time I did not have at my hand the report of 
the Special Committee to Study Communist Tactics, Strategy, and 
Objectives, and recommendations adopted by the House of Delegates 
of the American Bar Association, dated February 25, 1952. I now 
have that report issued by the office of the association at 1140 North 
Dearborn Street, Chicago 10, 111. I want to read just one short para- 
graph, and then ask that this be included in our hearings and our 
report at the appropriate place in connection with the testimony be- 
fore this committee of the members of the bar. I just wish to read one 
paragraph, and I read on page 6 : 

The congressional committees investigating communism, and in particular the 
House Un-American Activities Committee, have been attacked on the ground that 
they have engaged in smear campaigns, and have invaded the constitutional 
rights of persons investigated. Your committee is impressed with the fairness 
with which hearings before that committee have been conducted during the period 



4246 COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 

of time indicated by our study of the published testimony. We are satisfied that 
the witnesses called to testify before the committee are being treated fairly and 
properly in all respects, and we also feel satisfied that each witness is accorded 
full protection so far as his constitutional or other legal rights are involved. 

Moreover, the confidential communications between attorneys and clients have 
been fully respected. 

It is our view, the view of your committee, that current attacks on the House 
Un-American Activities Committee are unjustified. Whether deliberate or mis- 
guided, such unwarranted attacks result in reducing the effectiveness of the 
•committee's great service to the American people. 

I offer that for the record. 

I call attention of the committee to, and I wish only by reference to 
include, a brief on Communism (Marxism and Leninism) Its Aims, 
Purposes, Objectives and Practices, published by the American Bar 
Association, with reports and recommendations of the Special Com- 
mittee on Communist Tactics, Strategy, and Objectives. I just wish 
to read a very brief foreword for identification : 

The American Bar Association is of the opinion that communism and its basic 
doctrine, Marxism-Leninism, are not understood and the dangers thereof fully 
appreciated by the American people. This brief has been prepared by the Special 
Committee on Communist Tactics, Strategy, and Objectives for distribution to 
the public, and for its study and use. 

Signed, Cody Fowler, president of the American Bar Association. 

Mr. Tavenner. I think that I should call to the subcommittee's 
attention a letter which was written by Adele Buffington to the com- 
mittee under date of September 25, 1951, and which was intended to 
have been placed in the record at that time and it was not. So I desire 
that this letter now be made a part of the record. 

Mr. Doyle. It will be received and filed in the record. 

(The letter referred to was filed with the committee.) 

Mr. Doyle. I will ask subcommittee member Jackson to read a state- 
ment on behalf of the committee. 

Mr. Jackson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

As the subcommittee of the House Committee on Un-American Ac- 
tivities completes its present hearings in the Los Angeles area, it is the 
wish of the full committee to extend its thanks to those who have 
cooperated in assuring that the work of the Congress should not be 
interrupted by elements and forces whose preannounced intention it 
was to disrupt the hearings by demonstrations within and outside the 
hearing room. 

The thanks of the committee and of the Congress are due the police 
and security agencies of city, county, State, and Federal Governments. 
We are especially indebted to United States Marshal James J. Boyle, 
Sheriff Eugene Biscailuz, and Chief of Police William Parker, with- 
out whose continuing assistance and cooperation it would have been 
very difficult to properly conduct these hearings. 

The committee also wishes to express its appreciation to the cus- 
todian of the Federal Building, Mr. E. B. Stillwell, and to the em- 
ployees in the building whose unfailing courtesy and help has facili- 
tated the orderly conduct of this Federal business. 

To the gentlemen of the press and radio, the committee extends its 
thanks for giving full and complete coverage to the hearings. 

The present hearings have resulted in a far greater public under- 
standing of the extent and nature of communistic activities in the 
Los Angeles area. In carrying out the charge laid upon the com- 
mittee by the Congress of the United States, the committee members 



COMMUNISM IN LOS ANGELES PROFESSIONAL GROUPS 4247 

have individually and collectively suffered unprecedented and unjus- 
tified abuse and vilification. However, the public reaction to the con- 
duct of these hearings has been most gratifying to the public servants 
of the American people, whose unpleasant task it is to disclose sub- 
versive propaganda activities throughout this country. We are grate- 
ful to the many citizens of Los Angeles and vicinity who have com- 
municated their expressions of confidence and of support to this com- 
mittee. 

Mr. Doyle. Is there any further business before the subcommittee, 
Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No. 

Mr. Doyle. This subcommittee, then, stands in adjournment, and 
with this adjournment, the present hearings by the Un-American 
Activities Committee, or this subcommittee thereof, are terminated. 
Thank you very much for your courtesy extended. 

(Whereupon, at 11 : 15 a. m., Tuesday, October 7, 1952, the hearings 
were adjourned.) 

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