COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION
(EDUCATION— PART 9)
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMEEICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OE EEMESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
JUNE 28 AND 29, 1954
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
INCLUDING INDEX
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
30)72 WASHINGTON : 1954
Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents
SEP 2 8 1954
COMMITTEE ON UN-AJVIERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois, Chairman
BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania
DONALD L. JACKSON, California MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri
KIT CLARDY, Michigan CLYDE DOYLE, California
GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio JAMES B. FRAZIER, JB., Tennessee
Robert L. Kdnzig, Counsel
Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., Counsel
Thomas W. Beale, Sr., Chief Clerk
Raphael I. Nixon, Director of Research
Courtney B. Owens, Chief Investigator
II
CONTENTS
June 28, 1954, testimony of — Page
Francis X. T. Crowley 5755
Robert H. Silk 5783
Norman Cazden 5791
Lester Beberfall 5796
Lloyd Barenblatt 5801
June 29, 1954, testimony of —
Jack Alexander Lucas 5815
Index „ i
m
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law GOl, 79tli Congress [1946], chapter
753, 2d session, which provides :
Be it enacted ly the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
RXJT.E X
SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
* * * * « M: *
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) Tlie Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and at-
tacks tlie principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution,
and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any
necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee, or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
RULES ADOPTED BY THE 83D CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 3, 1953
*******
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con-
gress, the following standing committees :
*******
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members.
* * . * * * * *
RuuE XI
POWEBS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
**•**♦*
17. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time, investisations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propajianda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop-
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attaclis the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session ) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses, and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by such chairman, and may be served by any person desig-
nated by any such chairman or member.
VI
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION
(Education— Part 9)
MONDAY, JUNE 28, 1954
United States PIouse of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. G.
The Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to call,
at 10 : 37 a. m., in the caucus room of the Old House Office Building,
Hon. Harold H. Velde (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Harold H. Velde
(chairman), Donald L. Jackson, Kit Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer,
Francis E. Walter, and James B. Frazier, Jr. (appearance shown in
transcript) .
Staff members present: Robert L. Kunzig, counsel; Donald T.
Appell, investigator ; and Riley Smith, acting for the clerk.
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order.
Let the record show that present are Mr. Jackson of California, Mr.
Clardy of Michigan, Mr. Scherer of Ohio, Mr. Walter of Pennsylvania,
and myself of Illinois, a quorum of the full committee.
Before commencing this hearing I would like for counsel to explain
to the committee the purposes and reasons for this hearing this
morning.
Mr. Kunzig. Mr. Chairman, on June 8, 1953, 1 year ago, there ap-
peared before this committee in executive session one Francis Xavier
Thomas Crowley, who had been subpenaed after he had been identi-
fied as having been a member of the Communist Party at hearings in
Michigan.
Mr. Crowley came before the committee and refused to answer any
questions concerning either his own participation in any Communist
activities or anyone else's participation. He flatly refused to answer
any questons. He did not take the fifth amendment or avail himself
of that privilege. He just refused to answer.
Subsequent to that time, after a vote of the full committee, Mr.
Chairman, the committee recommended to the House of Representa-
tives that Francis X. T. Crowley be cited for contempt of Congress.
On May 11, 1954, House Resolution 541 was adopted and Report No.
1586 concerning Mr. Crowley was presented and printed and adopted.
Mr, Crowley, by vote of 346 to 0, was cited for contempt of Con-
gress and his name was referred to the United States Attorney for
the District of Columbia to the end that he may be proceeded against
in the manner and form provided by Congress. The case is even now
57.53
5754 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
pendiiifi^ in tlie h.'inds of the United States District iVttorney for the
District of Columbia.
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Crowley communicated on liis own behalf with
the committee and asked leave to come before the committee and tell
his entire story. lie said that he felt that he had mismiderstood, that
he had been in error. He said also that he had discussed the matter
in detail with his priest and had been advised to come and tell the
full and true story.
The committee met and agreed to hear INIr. Crowley and he is here
today, not under subpena, but voluntarily returning to the committee
to answer the questions put to him by the members of the House Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities.
The field covered will be in the main communism in education and
the experiences and background in the party by Francis X. T.
Crowley.
It will deal with activities in Michigan, Boston, and in some small
degree, New York.
Without further ado, Mr. Chairman, if I have your permission I
will call the witness.
Mr. Velde. All right, proceed.
Mr. KuNziG. I call Francis X. T. Crowley.
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give before this
committee, do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Crowley. I do.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. While the witness is taking the chair, I have a pre-
liminary matter I would like to go into. This is a parliamentary
inquiry as to vrhether or not in lecommending to the full House a
citation for contempt, whether or not that might be perhaps out of
our jurisdiction, the House having acted u]')on it.
I don't knoAv. I am simply ])utting that question as to whether
the House exercises jurisdiction now in the matter of whether the
committee is enabled to proceed on its own accord in the light of the
House action.
Mr. Velde. It is my understanding, of course, that when we have
a witness who asks to testify before our committee that we do every-
thing possible to grant that request and the privilege of being given a
hearing. So the witness is appearing, as I understand, at his own re-
quest to clear matters up that he failed to clear up before this com-
mittee in executive session.
I do not think that the fact that the Attorney General or the Justice
Department or the full House of Representatives has jurisdiction
over him has anything to do with this particular hearing, as I under-
stand it.
]\Ir. Jackson. I ask this question not in a contentious spirit but
sim])ly that I may know that we have the jurisdiction.
Mr. Velde. I believe we do under the rules.
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that iNIr. Jackson was
necessarily absent at the time we took this up and as I recall the case
we canvassed this pretty thoroughly and I think it was unanimously
agreed upon that we should go forward.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5755
(Representative James B. P'lazier, Jr., entered the hearing room
at this point.)
Mr. Velde. Yon are referring to the meetings we held in executive
session ?
Mr. Clardy. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Vei.de. Yes, and we had a quorum present.
Mr. SciiEREU. In view of tlie statement by the gentleman from
Michigan, I wish to say that the action of the committee was not unani-
mous. I voted against the motion for a number of reasons, but it was
not because of a lack of desire to hear the testimony.
Mr. Clardy. It was not because you did not want to hear him, that
is right.
Mr. KuNziG. The question as to whether the matter can be heard
by this committee has been taken up with the Parliamentarian and
they are in full accord that the witness can be heard.
Of course, what is done by the district court is completely up to
the Attorney General.
Mr. Walter. It may be for them to decide, but I think we should
express our views as to what decisions we will take on this matter.
Mr. Clardy. If the witness fully cooperates with the committee, I
think we should take that into account and make an appropriate
recom men dati on .
Mr. Velde. Certainly. Any Member of Congress or this commit-
tee has a right to express his own personal vieAvs regarding the witness
to the Attorney General or to anyone else wdio wants to.
Mr, Velde. The witness may be seated.
Mr. KuxziG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you give your full name, please, sir?
TESTIMONY OF FRANCIS XAVIEE THOMAS CROWLEY
Mr. Crowley. Francis Xavier Thomas Crowley.
Mr. KuNziG. What is your present address ?
Mr. Crowley. 226 Second Avenue, New York City.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Crowley, I see that you are not accompanied by
counsel. You know that, of course, under the rules of this commit-
tee, you have the right to be so accompanied?
Mr. Crowley. Yes ; I know that.
Mr. KuNziG. You were present in the room previously when I made
a brief opening statement. Is it correct that you are testifying here
voluntarily today, at your own request?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you give us a brief resume of your educational
background ?
Mr. Crowley. Well, I graduated from St. Thomas the Apostle Pa-
rochial School in about 1940 and from Brooklyn Technical High
School in 1943, and from the University of Michigan in August 1950.
I did some graduate work at night at Columbia and I attended a
drafting course at Mechanics Institute.
That about covers it.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you give the committee a brief resume of your
employment background, the major points, not just a few weeks em-
ployment, so to speak?
30172— 54— pt. 9 2
5756 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Crowley. For the past roughly 3 years, I have been working in
New York, and now I am working as a draftsman for an architectural
firm in New York.
Before that I held various short-length jobs. I was a salesman. I
worked in summer camps. I had my own landscaping business when
I was in high school, things like that.
Mr. KuNziG. What is your present employment ?
Mr. Crowley. As a draftsman for an architectural firm.
Mr. KuNziG. In New York City?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Crowley, where were you born and when ?
Mr. Crowley. Woodhaven, Long Island, October 29, 1925.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you spell the name of the town, please?
Mr. Crowley. W-o-o-d-h-a-v-e-n.
Mr. KuNziG. When were you in attendance at Columbia University ?
Mr. Crowley. From January 1946 until about April 1947. That
was mv freshman year.
Mr. KuNziG. While you were a student, did you join the Communist
Party?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, not at Columbia.
Mr. KuNziG. You mean off campus?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNZiG. Would you describe how you became a member of the
Communist Party and what led you to become a member ?
Mr. Crowley. Through some social acquaintances that I made after
I got out of the Army, and one of those persons brought me into the
party.
The reason I joined, I cannot think too clearly about that, but I
know that it was because I was looking for some kind of a faith or
an ideology. I lost my own and I was sort of floundering around
and I hooked onto that and it buoyed me up.
Mr. KuNziG. Who got you to join?
Mr. Crowley. A woman named Ann Saymour.
Mr. KuNziG. Was she a resident of New York ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you give any further identification of Ann
Saymour ?
Mr. Crowley. No, I haven't seen her since 1946.
Mr. Clardy. Was she about your own age ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, a few years older.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew her to be a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. What group were you brought into in the party, what
cell?
Mr. Crowley. A group on the upper west side in Manhattan, about
99th or 100th Street.
Mrc. KuNZiG. Ninety-ninth and what?
Mr. Crowley. And 100th Street, between Amsterdam or Columbus
Avenue.
Mr. KuNziG. Did this group have a name?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, the Connolly Club.
Mr. KuNziG. What sort of things took place at this Connolly Club?
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5757
Mr. Crowley. Well, my activities were sort of Johnny Higgins
work, selling the Daily Worker or circulating election petitions, and
distributing circulars. That about covers it.
Mr. Jackson. Communist Party election petitions ?
Mr. Crowley. I do not recall whether they were all Communist
Party election petitions or whether they were for other candidates,
but they were circulated through the club.
Mr. Velde. What year was this again, Mr. Crowley ?
Mr. Crowley. 1946 to the early part of 1947.
Mr. Clardy. Were you of voting age at that time ?
Mr. Crowley. No, I know I did not vote. I am 28 now. I was
just about 21.
Mr. Sciieker. If these were not Communist Party petitions, they
were petitions for other parties whom the Communist Party had
designated to be supported ; is that right ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. May I inquire on that point, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Can you give us the name of tlie party?
Mr. Crowley. Well, I think it was the Anu'rican Labor Party.
Mr. Clardy. That was the one I had in mind. Was there a Liberal
Party?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, but we did not circulate their petitions, to my
knowledge.
Mr. Clardy. Primarily, the American Labor Party ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Thanlc you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. KuNziG. You circulated the petitions of the American Labor
Party as a member of the Communist Party yourself?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. That was, of course, as you have specified, under spe-
cific directions and instructions of the Communist Party so to do ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Is there anything else, any other activity that took
place during the brief period of time that you were in New York as
a member of the party ?
Mr. Crowley. Well, there were rallies of various sorts, political
rallies. I think there was one in Madison Square Garden for some
purpose, but I cannot remember now what the occasions were. They
were political rallies that were sponsored either by the Communist
Party or by other groups that I attended.
Mr. KuNziG. One of the questions on which you were cited for con-
tempt was the question : "Have you ever at any time been a member
of the Communist Party?"
That question, of course, you have now answer to me "Yes" and you
started giving details about your membership.
Will you tell the committee — and I know you want an opportunity
to tell the committee why you took the viewpoint that you took a year
ago in 1953, or why you have supported that particular viewpoint and
came back here today.
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I think I can do that pretty briefly.
I know that at that time I no longer believed in the entire movement
and I had no sympathy with it, but my purpose in not testifying was
5758 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
to protect other people who I thonj^lit might get in the samp boat that
I was in and might suffer a lot of damage, either socially or economic-
ally because of my testimony, and also 1 was a little bit footloose at the
time.
Mr. Clardy. May I inquire, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. ViXDE. Yes, Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. By that, are you trying to tell us that there was not
remaining any vestige of the ideological conviction that you had had?
JNIr. Crowley. Yes, sir ; none.
]Mr. Clardy. You had abandoned those convictions, is that right?
Mr. Crowley. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. And at that time, you were motivated entirely by
the things you just mentioned?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. You were no longer in sympathy with the objectives
and the purposes of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Crowley. Not at all.
Mr. Jacksox. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question ?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. You say you were hesitant to give your testimony
previously because of the fact that you might involve other persons?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Do you know whether or not any of those other indi-
viduals have since left the Communist Party and are no longer a part
of that organization?
Mr. Crowley. No, not that I know of. I took it upon myself.
Mr. Jackson. In spite of the fact that you did not know at that
time whether or not these people were still a part of the Communist
Party apparatus?
Mr. Crowley. No, I did not know that.
Mr. Jackson. One more question which I think should go into the
record at this time : Have you ever been offered any immunity, any
promise or reward by any member of the staff in connection with your
appearance here today?
Mr. Crowley. No, none whatsoever. I am here on my own.
Mr. Velde. And you have not been offered any immunity from
prosecution by any member of the committee itself, we sitting up
here?
Mr. Crowley. No, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Is it fair to say that your own conscience and your
own love for your country may have prompted you to come forward ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, that is the reason.
Mr. ScHERER. It might have been a little fear of the results of the
citation that prompted him, too.
Mr. Crowley. Well, I can answer that if I may.
Mr. KuNziG. Go right ahead.
Mr. Crowley. Because I see no reason for my suffering a penalty
for something that I no longer believe in. I see no reason for suffer-
ing as a scapegoat for something I do not believe in.
Mr. ScHERER. Would you have come back if this committee had
not cited you for contempt?
Mr. Crowley. I believe I would.
Mr. SciiERER. You are not sure of that ?
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5759
Mr. Crowley. I believe I would, sir.
Mr. SciiEKER. It was not until after you were cited for contempt
and faced a penalty, however, that you made up your mind to come
back.
Mr. Crowley, That is rioht.
Mr. KuNziG. In regard to the statement you made about not wish-
ing: to name others, I think the record should be clear that you did
not answer any questions, even about yourself, a year ago.
Mr. Crowley. That is right.
Mr. KuNziG. I believe you said, "It would be cowardice to answer
any questions about my past life to anyone that I did not want to."
Mr. Crowley. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. And then you just said that you wouldn't answer.
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. But today you are here to give the full answers and
J want to ask you whether your actions a year ago were based on your
own convictions or whether you did not at that time talk to anyone?
Mr. Crowley. I had been going to a few people at that time. I
spoke to a lawyer and he tolcl me that I could cite the lifth amend-
ment. That was the only legal way I could refuse to answer and I
did not want to do that, and I did not take his advice and I did not
retain him as counsel. That was the reason why I came down without
a lawyer. I was working on a construction job renovating a church
and I met the priest of the church and I talked with him and he told
me the only thing to do would be to come down and testify.
Mr. KuNziG. That was a year ago?
Mr. Crowley. Yes; that was his advice and I did not follow that
because I told him what I told you; I did not want to involve other
people.
Mr. KuNzio. Where did you move to when you left New York City ?
Mr. Crowley, To Boston.
Mr. KuxziG. When was that ?
Mr. Crowley. In 1947, the spring of 1047.
Mr. KuNziG. Did your Communist Party activities move along with
you?
Mr, Crowley. They did move with me, but almost by accident.
Mr. KuNziG. Explain that, will you?
Mr. Crowley. Yes; I moved to Boston. I quit school in the middle
of the term and I was unable to do the work and I was looking for
something else to do, somewliere to go, and I moved to Boston because
I knew souieone there who had been in the Army with me and I
thought I could, you know, get a better start on things and a transfer
was given to me to Boston.
When I arrived in Boston, a Communist Party transfer — when I
arrived in Boston I waited sometime before I had contact with th&
Communist Party.
Mr. KuNziG. Will you tell the committee just what you mean by
Communist Party transfer ? How does that work ?
Mr. Crowley. At that time, as I recall, I received a letter or a card,
I think it probably was a card, to present in Boston when I arrived and
I do not remember exactly what it was, but it was something of that
nature.
JNIr. KuNziG. Did you present that card when you arrived in Boston ?
Mr. Crowley, I did eventually.
5760 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. KuNziG. To what, the Communist Party up there?
Mr. Crowley. Yes. No, not to the Communist Party. To some-
one who told me that they would handle the transfer for me and get me
into the Communist Party in Boston.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you remember who that someone was?
Mr. Crowley. No, I cannot recall that name now, I am sorry.
Mr. KuKziG. What activities did you get into as a member of the
Communist Party in Boston?
Mr. Crowley. They were almost the same as the activities I had in
New York. There was electioneering. I think that was for the —
there was the "Wallace movement starting then and I did quite a bit
of work on that, either collecting signatures to have the third party
nominated, or passing out handbills, and I also worked as a clerk-typ-
ist for the National Council of American-Soviet Friendship.
Mr. Clardy. The what?
Mr. Crowley. The National Council of American-Soviet Friend-
ship.
Mr. Clardy. All at the direction of the Communist Party leader
governing your cell?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, this was controlled by them.
Mr. KuNZiG. Any activities you had for the Wallace movement was
done at the request of the Communist Party ?
Mr, Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. To the best of your recollection, Mr. Crowley, when
did this Wallace movement begin in Boston?
Mr. Crowley. I do not recall. I think it might have been there
when I arrived.
Mr. KuNziG. When was that?
Mr. Crowley. In 1947. When I joined it, it already was a going
concern, so to speak.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you ever circulate Communist Party petitions in
Springfield, Mass. ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes ; I did.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you tell the committee about that?
Mr. Crowley. That was for two or three days I circulated a peti-
tion for the election, for the nomination of Sidney Lippman or Lip-
sher,^ who was running for an office in Springfield on the Communist
Party ballot.
Mr. KuNZiG. You do not remember the name more definitely than
Lippman or Lipsher?
Mr. Crowley. No.
Mr. Clardy. Was he running for a municipal office?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, in the city of Springfield.
Mr. KuNziG. While in Boston, what Conmiunist Party group were
you assigned to, if any ?
Mr. Crowley. I was in the West End group.
Mr. KuNziG. That I believe also, Mr. Crowley, was one of the ques-
tions for which you were cited :
Wlien you were in Boston. INIass., were you a member of the West End group
of the Communist Party? Plave you ever l)cen associated with any members of
the West End group of the Communist Party of Boston?
^ Information in tho filos of the committep indicates correct spelling of name to be
Sidney Lipsliiios.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5761
That was one of the questions you refused to answer.
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr, KuNziG. You say now you were a member of the West End
group ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Tell us now how you got into the group and what
you did in the group.
Mr, Crowley, I got in and the group took the transfer which I
had from New York City. I eventually made contact with someone,
I think it might have been someone working in one of the other or-
ganizations that were there, eitlier the Wallace movement or the
National Council of American-Soviet Friendship, and then I got
into the group that way and began activities.
Mr. KuNziG, Can you recall any of the members of the Commu-
nist Party whom you knew to be members of the Communist Party
during your time in Boston?
Air, Crowley. Yes, I can recall a few. There was Otis Hood, I
remember.
Mr. KuNZiG. Plow do you spell that man's name ?
Mr, Crowley, H-o-o-(1, He ran for office in Boston for the school
board or the school committee, and I campaigned for him in the city
of Boston with election petitions.
Then there were leaders I knew, I just knew them as being leaders,
Daniel Boone Schirmer,
Mr, KuNziG, What was his position in the West End group ?
Mr, Crowley, He was not in the West End group. He attended
a few meetings and conducted discussions on various themes, political
topics. He was an officer of the party in Boston, Mass,
Mr, KuNziG, And you knew Otis Hood and Daniel Boone Schirmer
to be members of the Communist Party ?
Mr, Crowley, Yes.
INIr, KuNziG, Is there any way you can identify them more clearly
than that, either by their ages or anything of that nature?
Mr, Crowley. Daniel Boone Schirmer I would say was about 30
years old at that time, and Otis Hood was an older man. He was in
his forties or fifties ; about 50, 1 would say,
Mr, Clardy, AVere any of those candidates successful ?
Mr. Crowley, No, I do not think so,
Mr, Clardy, They did not then acquire these official ])ositions?
Mr, Crowley, No, they did not,
Mr, KuNziG, When did you leave Boston?
Mr, Crowley. Well, about August or September of 1947, t^iat same
summer, the same year,
Mr, KuNziG, Where did you move to?
Mr, Crowley, I went to Michigan.
Mr, KuNziG, What city ?
Mr. Crowley, To Ann Arbor, Mich., with the intention of going
back to school, I had not been going to school that year,
Mr, Clardy, The University of Michigan at Ann Arbor ?
Mr, Crowley, The University of Michigan,
Mr. Clardy. Did you enroll as a student?
Mr, Crowley, Yes, I got a transfer from Columbia and was
accepted.
Mr. KuxziG. In what college?
5762 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Clardy. Arts, literature, and science ?
Mr, KuNziG. Commonly called the lit school on the campus?
Mr. Ckowley. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. That is my school, by the way.
Mr. KrxzTG. When you went to Michigan, did you stay there until
you graduated i
Mr. Croavif.y. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. When did you graduate?
]Mr. Crowlky. In August lO.^O.
]Mr. Kuxzio. During that period of time did you live at Ann Arbor?
]Mr. Ckowley. Yes, all the time.
]Mr. KuxziG. So the period of time that we are noAv talking about
at Michigan was from the end of 15)47 up until 1950?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
]\Ir. KuNziG. Was vour Communist Party membership transferred
again, this time from Boston to Ann Arbor ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, it was.
]Mr. KuNziG. Did you have to ask about that or did they transfer
automatically ?
]\Ir. Crowley. They transferred mo automatically.
]\rr. Clardy. Who do you mean by "they"?
M. Crowley. The Connnunist Party in Boston sent me a transfer
out to Michigan, as I recall, and I do not remember now to whom they
sent it, but I know I was contacted some time after I arrived there.
Mr. KuNziG. Which of the colls, the Ralph Xeafus?
Mr. CROvrLEY. Yes, the student group.
Mr. ScHERER. You left ]\Iichigan when ?
Mr. CnowLEY. August of 1950.
Mr. KuNZTG. I think the record should show that Bereniece Bald-
win, who testified before this committee and who kept the records at
that time of the Communist Party, had the record, as testified to by this
witness, of his transfer from Boston to Ann Arbor, jNIich.
]Mr. Crowley, as a matter of interest, how long did it take for the
Communist Party to approach vou when you got to Ann Arbor? Did
they get to you pretty quickly, if you recall ?
INIr. Crowley. It was some time before T started school in February
194S, January 1948. It was sometime during the fall of 1947, 1 cannot
recall exactly when.
Mr. KuNziG. Tlie transfer was dated October 1947.
Mr. Crowt.ey. October? Well, tlien, it was given after I left
Boston. It was sent out afterward.
Mr. KuNZTG. What group did they put you in or did you get in
out at Ann Arbor ?
Mr. Crowley. The Ealph Neafus, spelled N-e-a-f-u-s or N-e-a-
p-h-u-s, I do not recall.
Mr. KuNziG. The Ralph Neafus in Ann Arbor, Mich.
Mr. Crowley. Yes, that is right.
]\rr. KuNziG. Was that comprised of students of the university?
Mr. Crowley. Students in the University of Michigan.
Mr. KuNziG. Undergraduates or graduates?
Mr. Crowley. Undergraduates.
Mr. Clardy, Where was its headquarters in Ann Arbor ?
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5763
Mr. Crowley. The headquarters — it had no central headquarters.
The meetings were held at various places, various residences of differ-
ent students. Some were married and they had apartments.
Mr. Clardy. Didn't they have some place for a regular meeting
place ?
Mr. Crowley. There was a chairman of the group, Ernest Ellis.
His house was more or less the central focal point of the group there.
Mr. Clardy. Where was that located, what streets
Mr. Crowley. I do not remember that. It was a good walk from
the campus, I think.
Mr. Clardy.. Which direction, toward Ferry Field ?
Mr. Crowley. I think going toward the arboretum, on that side
of the campus, but I don't know whether it was north or south of
the campus.
Mr. Velde. Can you tell the committee how it happened to be
named tlie Ralph Neaf us group ?
Mr. C'rowley. Let me see, yes, I think Ralph Neafus was a young
man from some time back or a socialist who had done somethmg to
gain himself recognition or fame.
Mr. Velde. I am informed by our investigator that he was a mem-
ber of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade during the Spanish Civil War.
Mr. Crowley. I forgot that.
Mr. Vklde. You recall there were a number of so-called heroes of
that war, and I understand that Ralph Neafus was killed in that
action.
Mr. KuNziG. You memtioned Ernest Ellis. Who was he?
Mr. Crowley. He was the chairman of the group.
Mr. KuNZiG. Of the Ralph Neafus group ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. And vou knew him as a member of the Communist
Party?
Mv. Crowley. Yes, he was an open Communist on the campus there.
He was known to be a Communist.
Mr. KuNziG. In these various names that you are going to tell the
committee about, I want to be sure that you understand that we are
interested in only those people whom you knew to be members of the
Communist Party, not those whom you suspected or thought, but
those whom you knew to be members of the Communist Party.
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you tell us any of the other members of the Ralph
Neafus group ?
Mr. Crowley. There was a Bill Carter who was also an open Com-
munist on the campus.
Mr. KuNziG. Was he also at one time chairman of the Ralph
Neafus group ?
Mr. CrowLey. Yes, I think he was for a short time.
Mr. Clardy. May I inquire ?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. This organization was a secret organization, was it
not?
Mr. Crowley. Not completely, no.
Mr. Clardy. Was it registered in any way with the university
authorities ?
Mr. Crowley. Oh, no, it was not registered.
30172— 54— pt. 9 3
5764 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Clardy. The leasoii I asked that was you mentioned two who
were known openly as members of the party.
Mr. Crowi^y. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. All of the members of the Ralph Neafus group, in-
cluding yourself, did not want that identification to become public '
Mr. Crowley. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. You kept it concealed ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Clakdy. And 3^our meetings were secret? You conducted them
in a way that you did not attract attention ?
Mr. Crow^ley. Yes, for the most part. If I could add some-
thing
Mr. Clardy. Proceed.
Mr. Crow^ley. There were open meetings at which the Ralph Neafus
group invited anyone who wanted to attend to, you know, attend the
meeting and sort of talk on current events.
Mr. Ci^RDY. But without identifying it as a Communist Party
meeting, is that not true ?
Mr. Crowley. No, at times it w^as known to be — no, not identifying
it as a Communist Party meeting, that is right.
Mr. Clardy. They identified it more or less as a meeting of liberals
and progressives and all the other words the Communists ordinarily
use ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, study group.
Mr. Clardy. Trying to suck in as many as they could discover as
to who w^ould be vulnerable to further Communist Party indoctri-
nation ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNZiG. You mentioned Bill Carter. Can you give us Bill
Carter's full name?
Mr. Crow^ley. Just Bill Carter. I guess William Carter. I don't
know if he had any other initials.
Mr. KuNziG. Are there any other members of the Ralph Neafus
group that you can recall ?
Mr. Crowi^y. Yes, there w^as another person who served as a chair-
man at the meeting for a while. Now, what is his name? I'm trying
to think of it. Marvin Gladstone.
Mr. KuNziG. Marvin Gladstone?
Mr. Cr^\RDY. Do you know whether or not he is now a member of
it or, rather, do you know wdiere he is now ?
Mr. CKOwn.EY. No, I don't know.
Mr. KuNZiG. I think the record should show, Mr. Chairman, that
a Marvin Gladstone was also identihed by Bereniece Baldwin as chair-
man of the Washtenaw section of the Communist Party. That identi-
fication by Bereniece Baldwin was in 1952. You knew him as the
chairman of the Ralph Neafus group?
Mr. Crowley. That is right.
Mr. KuNziG. Is there any other information you can give us about
him?
Mr. Crow^ley. No. He was married and was a student there. There
is not much else T can say.
Afr. Clardy. Was he married at that time?
Mr, Crow^ley. Y'es, I knew him.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5765
Mr. Clakdy. "Was his wife's name, first name Evelyn?
Mr. ('rowlkv. I believe it was; I cannot swear to that.
Mr. Clakdy. We had such a person under subpena out in Michigan.
AVas she a member of that same ^jroup?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNZiG. And you knew her to be a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Crowley. The Neafus group.
Mr. KuNziG. Of the Communist Party I
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. If you will search your memory, will you please
give us any other names of people whom you can recall who were
members of the Ralph Neafus group with you ?
Mr. Crowley. There was a Roosevelt Ward.
Mr. KuNZKi. Roosevelt Ward. You knew liim to be a member of
the Ralph Neafus group (
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Was he a student, as you were?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. All these were students; is tliat right?
Mr. Crowley. I think Ward was a part-time student. I do not
recall if he was a full-time student.
Mr. KuNziG. I think the record should show that Roosevelt Ward
was cited as a leader of the Labor Youth League and was indicted
under the national draft law but was not convicted.
You knew him to be a member of the Communist Party ?
Mv. Crow^ley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Of yoiu" own })ersonal knowledge ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I attended meetings with him.
Mr. KuxziG. Any other members of the Ralph Neafus group ?
JNIr. Crowley. Yes, there was a Millicent or a Mildred Federbush.
Mr. KuNZKj. Mildred Federbush ?
Mr. Crowley. Or Millicent.
]\Ir. KuNziG. I believe the correct name is Mildred Federbush.
And you knew Mildred Federbush to be a member of the Ralph Neafus
group ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, she attended meetings there.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know Edward Yellin?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, he was also a member of the Ralph Neafus
group.
Mr. KuxziG. Of the Conununist Party?
Mr. Crowley. Yes; and Edward Shaffer. He was also a Comnni-
nist on the campus, an open (V)nununist, I think he was at that time.
Mr. Clardy. There is no doubt about Mr. Shatter being a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Crowley. No, he was there. That is the only basis of evidence
for saying that. In fact, we can have any person attending the
meeting.
Mr. Clardy. He was one of the fifth amendment witnesses we had
in Michigan recently.
Mr. Jackson. Air. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. May I make the point that we do not need to unduly
labor the point as to whether the witness know^s these to be members
5766 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
of tlie Communist Party. One criteria for attendance at a closed meet-
ing with other members — you understand that is one of the criteria.
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Velde. I am glad that the gentleman made that statement with
respect to the criteria for determining whether a person is a member
of the Communist Party or was a member of the Communist Party,
because we know that the Communists no longer identify each other
by cards, and no longer carry identification cards. We can be fairly
certain, however, that if they attend closed meetings, they certainly
must have been members of the Communist Party.
If I understood you, you said that this man, this person you have
last mentioned, was an open Communist. Can you explain that a
little more fully, please ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes. To my recollection he made it known pub-
licly— or perhaps I am confusing him with the other open Communist
I mentioned, William Carter, but Sliafi'er certainly was very active on
the campus and openly so, and there was no doubt in anyone's mind
that he was a Communist.
Mr. Jackson. Open or secret, you knew him to be a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Velde. "Wliat period of time was this ?
Mr. Crowley. The period I was there from 1947 and 1948 through
1950. I was actually enrolled as student from 1948 on.
Mr. Clardy. I think we had better spell his last name. It isn't the
customary way it sounds.
Mr. Crowley. No.
Mr. Clardy. Was it S-h-a-f-f-e-r?
Mr. Crowley. It might have been.
Mr. Clardy. That is the way it appeared under his subpena. Wliere
did he live ?
Mr. Crowley. I don't know the name of the street. It was almost
at an intersection of State Street and another street I cannot recall.
Mr. Clardy. South of State Street ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Down Packard ?
Mr. Crowley, Yes ; down Packard, almost at State.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Crowley, are there any other members of the
Ralph Neafus group whom you recall ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I can recall them. My mind is a little confused
right now. Let me think a moment.
There was a Jean Fagan.
Mr. KuNziG. J-e-a-n ?
Mr. Crowley. That is right.
Mr. Clardy. Where did she come from ?
Mr. Crowley. From Michigan ; some town in Michigan.
Mr, Clardy. AVas it East Lansing ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I believe it was ; Lansing or East Lansing.
Mr. Clardy, Do you recall the first name of either of her parents?
Mr. Crowley. No, I never met the family.
Mr. Clardy. You wouldn't recognize it if I mentioned it ?
Mr. Crowley. No, not the parents. I knew she had 1 or 2 sisters,
but I did not know them as persons.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5767
Mr. Clardy. Do you know where she may be now ?
Mr. Crowley. No, I have no idea.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know John and Betty Houston ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I did know them.
Mr. KuNziG. Were they husband and wife?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Were John and Betty Houston members of the Kalph
Neafus group?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. How about Calvin and Alvin Lippett?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I think. I cannot swear to both of them. I
know one was and they looked alike.
Mr. KuNziG. And j^ou never knew whether it was Cal or Al?
Mr. Crowley. I could not swear to that.
Mr. KuNziG. But at least one of them was a member?
Mr. Crowley. They both may have been.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you ever see the two of them at one time at a
meeting?
Mr. Crowley. No, not at a meeting. I saw them together.
Mr. Clardy. Did you ever have conversation with either or both of
them outside of these meetings ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I think I did, just in the course of being on the
campus with them.
Mr. Clardy. But you were not able to tell Al from Cal ?
Mr. Crowley. It was hard, it was very hard.
Mr. KuNziG. How about George Sarver?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, for a time he was. I believe he dropped out.
As I recall, he did.
Mr. KuxziG. During the time you were there you knew him to be a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you give us any further identification of George
Sarver ; his age, address, or where he came from ?
Mr. Crowley. He was in his early twenties. He came from maybe
Detroit, and that is about all I can say. He was a student there.
Mr. KuNziG. Any other member of Ealph Neafus ? Suppose I re-
fresh your memory with some names.
How about Patricia Fiske Ellis?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, Ernie and Patricia. She was Ernie Ellis' wife.
Mr. KuNziG. And you knew her to be a member of the Ralph Neafus
group ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. I am just taking the Ralph Neafus people. How
about Jeanne Tozer ?
Mr. Crowley, Yes, I recall her. She was a member.
Mr. Ktjnzig. Do you know where she came from or any other iden-
tification?
Mr. Crowley. No.
Mr. KuNziG. Just that she was a student there also in Ralph Neafus.
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. How about Roselva Rushton Goodman ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, she was in the Neafus group, yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Was she married ?
5768 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I forget her husband's name. I remember him.
He was there also.
Mr. KuNziG. Would it have been Kenneth Goodman ?
Mr. Chowlky. Kenneth or Leonard. It was Lennie or Kenny.
Mr. KuxziG. Keinieth (ioodman, and he was Eoselva Rushton
Goodman's husband, and you knew both of them as members of Ralph
Neaf us ?
Mr. CkowIvKy. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you identify them any further as to their address
or a<res?
Mr. Crowley. No. They were both students. I don't remember
their address.
Mr. KuNziG. Jack Alexander Lucas?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, he was there at the time. I don't know if he
was there all the time I was there.
Mr. KuNziG. But you knew Jack Alexander Lucas definitely to be
a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Crowley, Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Jack Gore?
Mr. Crowley. I remember Jack but T do not recall if he was a mem-
ber of Neaf us. T had seen him. I saw him only a few times. I do
not remember him attendino- a meetincr as a member of Neafus.
Mr. KuNziG. Did vou know him as a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Crowi.ey. No, not from bein": in a Communist Party meeting.
Mr. KuNziG. Was he a student in the TTniTersity of Michigan?
Mr. Crowley. I do not think he was when I was there. I think he
was living somewhere else, maybe in Detroit or Ypsilanti, or some-
thing like that.
Mr. Velde. The Ralph Neafus group was not composed entirely of
students ; is that right ?
Mr. Crowley. T cannot remember anyone now who was not a stu-
dent that I could swear to. I cannot remember.
Mr. KuNziG. I think the record should show, Mr. Chairman, that
other testimony before this committee has identified Jack Gore as
having been a member of the Communist Party as first chairman
of the Labor Youth League of INIichigan and as a member of the Young
Communists of Michigan.
Your testimony is that you knew Jack Gore but you do not recall
his having attended meetings with you ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Velde. At that time there was a Labor Youth League organ-
ization on the campus of the University of Michigan?
Mr. Crowlet. Yes, there was.
Mr. Velde. But that was separate and distinct from the Ralph
Neafus group?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
INfr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Was there not some common membership, some people
belonging to both ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes; as a matter of fact, I think I belonged to the
Labor Youth League, too.
ISIr. Clardy. Who Avas the head of it at that time?
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5769
Mr. Crowley. I think it was Eddie Shaffer.
Mr. Clardy. Do you know who succeeded him ?
Mr. Crowley. No.
Mr. Clardy. Did you ever hear the name Baxter?
Mr. Crowley. No.
Mr. Jackson. INIay I inquire, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. May 1 inquire as to whether or not there is still on
the campus of the University of Michigan a labor youth group?
Mr. Clardy. The testimony that we took in Michigan indicates that
it was not entirely dead and there's a man by the name of Sharpe who
heads it up.
Had you ever heard about Mr. Sharpe ?
Mr. Crowley. No, I do not remember that name.
Mr. Velde. Did you ever know anyone in the labor youth group
who was not a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Crowley. There were, I thinlv there certainly were members of
the Labor Youth League who were not members of the Communist
Party who were in it for some other reason. There certainly were,
because I am sure that the membership must have been bigger than
that of the Ralph Neafus group.
Mr. Velde. How about the officers of tlie Labor Youth League ?
Mr. Crowley. Well, Shaffer was an officer and I believe Eddie
Yell in was. Thej^ were both Communists.
Mr. Velde. I think the record should show that the Labor Youth
League has been cited as a Communist organization by the Attorney
General of the United States and I think by this committee. It has
been mentioned several times as a Communist organization.
Mr. Jackson. May the record show that the witness Barbara Hartle,
during the Seattle, Wash., hearing, testified that out of her personal
knowledge in Cain County and tlie Pacific Northwest generally that
the Labor Youth League was controlled and dominated by the Com-
munist Party in that area.
Mr. Velde. Yes, I think there is considerable other testimony to
show that the Labor Youth League is a part and parcel of the Com-
munist plan to take over the world.
Mr. Clardy. It originated with them.
Mr. Velde. And that the Labor Youth League is a successor to the
Young Communist League and the American Youth for Democracy,
Mr. KuNziG. Did you ever know a Freda Perez ?
Mr. Crowley. No, I do not recall her being in the Neafus group.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know her in the Haldane group?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I remember her but I cannot swear that she
was a member of the Haldane group. I remember seeing her but I
do not know whether she was or not.
Mr. KuNziG. Seeing her at meetings of what ?
Mr. Crowley. Of the Haldane group.
Mr. KuNziG. You don't know whether she was at closed Communist
Party meetings?
Mr. Crowley. No, I do not recall that.
Mr. KuNziG. Did she later become Mrs. Beberfall?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
5770 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Clakdy. I want to ask one further question. You named a
great many and you probably will think of some more. Wasn't the
membership in the Ralph Neafus Club a changing one as students
came into the institution and went out so that the total was rather
staggeringly large over a period of time?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, someone said it was like a revolving door.
Mr. Clardy. I have heard that phrase before. So, while you have
named and are naming as many as you can recall, it evidently had a
great many more students in it than those that you have or will name.
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. It was interesting itself in pretty nearly every campus
activity that went on in an effort to influence the resolutions and in-
fluence the actions of those other groups, was it not?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, it had a great deal of influence because a lot of
the people went into other organizations.
Mr, Clardy. Didn't it also have an organized campaign of writing
letters to the editor of the Michigan Daily on the hot issues before
you?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I wrote some myself.
Mr. Clardy. So that they were using every method that Communists
could devise to influence the student body opinion in the direction
of the Communist movement.
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Walter. Where was the headquarters of the Labor Youth
League ?
Mr. Crowley, That I don't know. It is in New York City, i
believe.
Mr. Walter. Do you know who the head of it is ?
Mr. Crowley, No, I do not.
Mr, Walter. The principal officers ?
Mr. Crowley. No.
Mr. Walter. Do you know any of the national officers ?
Mr, Crowley, No, not to my knowledge,
Mr, Walter, Is this man Ward you mentioned a moment ago an
officer in the national organization ?
Mr, Crowley, He may be. He was in the Labor Youth League
when I knew him.
Mr, Walter, But he was not located in Michigan, He came there
to meetings ?
Mr. Crowley. That is right.
Mr. Velde. At this point the committee will be in recess for 10
minutes.
(Whereupon, at 11 : 33 a, m,, an 8-minute recess was taken,)
Mr, Velde, The committee will be in order.
Proceed, Mr, Counsel,
(Representative James B, Frazier, Jr,, left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr, KuNziG, Mr. Crowley, we were talking about the Ralph Neafus
Club Avhen we took a short break. Can you give us tlie benefit of your
knowledge of any other people in the Ralph Neafus Club of the Com-
munist Party who met with you ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes; I can recall one fellow named Leon Brown.
The fellow I recall was tall and heavy set, and I do not think it should
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5771
be confused with anyone else because Brown is quite a common name.
I think I knew quite a few students on the campus named Brown.
Mr. Clardy. Where did he hail from ?
Mr. Crowley. From New York or Brooklyn, I believe.
Mr. KuNziG. According to the records of the university, Mr. Chair-
man, Leon Brown was born on September 25, 1927, in New York City.
Can you think of any other members of the Ralph Neaf us Club ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes; there was a member from Tennessee or some-
where in the south named Al Milstein.
Mr. Clardy, Born in Tennessee ?
Mr. Crow^ley. I believe he was.
Iklr. KuNziG. Did he hold any office in the Ealph Neaf us Club?
Mr. Crowley. He held some kind of an office. I forget what it
was ; either keeping the attendance record or treasurer, I forget what
it was ; I believe treasurer.
Mr. Clardy. Do our files reflect a different birthplace for this Al
Milstein ? It runs in my mind that Tennessee is wrong.
Mr. KuNziG. He is under subpena and I believe hi. came to Michigan
from JMississippi. I believe his name is Alfred Milstein.
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. To continue the listing of these names of people from
Ralph Neaf us, would you give us any others you know ?
Mr. Crowley. Well, for a time there was a member named Lee
Salk. I believe he dropped out. He dropped out of Neafus, I think,
while I was there.
Mr. Clardy. Where was he from ?
Mr. Crowley. He was from New York.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you identify him in any further way ?
Mr. Crowley. No, he was a psychology student there. I forget
whether he had any job at the university.
Mv. Clardy. He was not on the quiet side of a personality, was he,
or what is the fact ?
Mr. Crowley. No, Salk was a kind of a go-getter. He hustled
around.
Mr. Clardy. An enthusiastic party member.
Mr. Crowley. Yes, he was enthusiastic in general. He was just that
way.
Mr. Clardy. That is all I have on that point.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know a Joan Studer ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I remember her.
Mr. KuNziG. In Ralph Neafus ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuxziG. Any further identification of Joan Studer ?
Mr. Crowley. No, I cannot identify her further.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know where she is today ?
Mr. Crowley. No, I believe she came from the East, possibly New
York.
Mr. Jackson. What was her major?
Mr. Crowley. I cannot recall what she studied.
Mr. Clardy. You knew her in the Lit College ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, in the Neafus Club.
Mr. KuNziG. Any other Neafus Club members ?
30172— 54— pt. 9 4
5772 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Crowley. There was a Bernard Poll, and I remember he told
me he was a teaching fellow there. In fact, that is what he told every-
one, a teaching fellow in the philosophy department.
Mr. KuNzio. You knew him to be a member of Neafus ?
JSIr. Crowley. Yes, he certainly was a member.
Mr. KuNziG. Any others, Mr. Crowley ? We are still talking about
Neafus.
Mr. Crowley. Yes; for a while there was a Bob Silk. I believe
he dropped out. He left.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know whether his full name was Robert H.
Silk?
Mr. Crowley. Robert.
Mr. KuNziG. You don't know about the middle initial ?
JNIr. Crowley. No.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you give us any further identification about him?
]\Ir. Crowley. I believe he was a law student at the time and he was
married. I think he dropped out while I was still in Neafus, or he
moved over or something like that.
]\Ir. KuNziG. But you knew him definitely to be a member of the
Communist Party at the time you were there at the University of
Michigan ?
Mr. Crowley. That is right.
Mr. KuNziG. How about Hy Bershad ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, he was a member of the Neafus Club.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know his full name ?
Mr. Crowley. No, Hy Bershad is as close as I can get to it.
Mr. KuNziG. Would it have been Hyman Abe Bershad, or does that
ring a bell?
Mr. Crowley. No.
Mr. KuNziG. How about Ed Freeman?
Mr. Crowley. I remember the name but I cannot place the face, and
so I cannot say definitely, but he was very active.
Mr. Ktjnzig. In what?
Mr. Crowley. On the campus. He was in, I believe, the [Labor]
Youth League.
]Mr. KuNziG. You said he was active on the cam]3us. As I said, we
are interested only in those who were members of the party. Are you
saying that you don't know whether he was a member of the party?
Mr. Crowley. Yes; because I cannot remember his face.
Mr. Clardy. I don't understand that question.
Mr. Crowley. I cannot remember him being at a party meeting. I
don't know what his face looks like, but the name rings a bell in my
mind.
Mr. Clardy. You cannot remember whether he was or was not?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, he was ; but I cannot remember his face.
Mr. Jackson. Had you ever worked with Ed Freeman upon any
Communist Party project?
Mr. Crowley. I do not remember. If he was in the Ralph Neafus
Club, because we all worked together on those things, but I do not
remember specifically that he and I worked on it.
Mr. KuNziG. But you knew an Ed Freeman, even if you cannot
place his face, to be a member of the Connnunist Party?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5773
Mr. KuNziG. Are there any other names that you can recall?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, there was Ed Pita.
Mr. KuxziG. Would that be Edward Gerald Pita, or did you know
him as Ed ?
Mr. Crowley. I just knew liim as Ed.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew him as Ed Pita ?
]Mr. Crowley. Yes.
]Mr. KuNziG. You knew him to be in the Neafus group ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Was he married?
Mr. Crowley. Yes; her name was Phyllis Pita.
■ Mr. KuNziG. You knew her to be a member of the party, too?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, the Ralph Xeafus Club.
Mr. Clardy. Where did they come from ?
Mr. Crowley. That I don't know.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know a James Terrell ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, Jim Terrell was a member of Neafus. He left.
I believe he left the party and became a convert to a religious faith. I
forget which. It might have been the Catholic church, but I know
he left.
Mr. Clardy. Did you say his first name was James?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, James.
jNIr. KuNziG. You have testified how you became a member of the
Rcilpli Neafus Club and your activities there at the University of
Michigan.
Did you at any time then ti'ansfer to any other club of the Com-
nmi)ist Party?
^Ir. Crowley. Yes, I did. Before I left there, I transferred to the
Haldane Club, which was a group for graduate students.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you request this or were you just put in automati-
cally ?
Mr. Crowley. No, I requested to leave the Neafus Club.
Mr. KuxziG. Would you tell us why you transferred to go from
Neafus to Haldane ?
Mr. Crowley. Well, I knew one or two people there and I wanted
to be in the club with them.
Mr. KuNZiG. And Haldane you say was composed of graduate
students ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Did it contain teaching fellows, for example, em-
ployed as instructors?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Students and teaching fellows?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Velde. When was it that you were transferred to Haldane, Mr.
Crowley ?
]\Ir. Crowley. I believe that was early in 1950 or the end of 1949 ;
early in 1950, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Velde. That was prior to the Korean war?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know, in the Haldane Club, a man by the name
of Norman Cazclen ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I believe he taught at the music school.
5774 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. KuNziG. At the University of Michigan?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. I believe that the record shows an assistant professor
of music at the University of Michigan.
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. And 3^011 knew him to be a member of the Haldane
Chib and, of course, of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. I want to go back to some members of the Haldane Club
in a few minutes.
Let us commence with your own experiences.
What sort of activities did the Haldane group engage in?
Mr. Crowley. They were chiefly of an intellectual nature discussing
things. It was mainly a discussion group. There was very little of
the activity of the kind that Neaf us engaged in, that is, running around
the campus with petitions or things like that.
Mr. KuNziG. Was Haldane even more secret than this Neaf us, would
you say ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, it is smaller, and it is not as open as Neafus.
Mr. KuNziG. How long did you stay a member of the party ? Did
you stay through your graduation in June 1950 ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, then I left.
Mr. KuNziG. And you left Michigan ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, and the party.
Mr. KuNziG. And you left the party too ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Where did vou go after June of 1950 ?
Mr. Crowley. I came to New York City and lived there ever since.
Mr. KuNziG. You did not affiliate with the Communist Party after
you came back to New York ?
Mr. Crowley. No, I had no connection with the party after I came
back.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you attend open Communist Party rallies after
you came back to New York?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I did. I attended a party meeting, a case in-
volving Willie McGee, sponsored by the American Labor Party, and
I attended 1 or 2 rallies. I cannot recall what they were for.
Mr. Walter. Is this the movement for the relief of Willie McGee?
Was that Communist-dominated?
Mr. Crowley. I don't know if it originated there, but in New York
City it was led chiefly by the American Labor Party.
Mr. Walter. As I understand it, you belonged to three different
Communist organizations in Ann Arbor.
Mr. Crowley. Two.
Mr. Walter. The Labor Youth League, the Neafus Club and the
Haldane.
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Walter. How many members of the Communist Party were
there in these three organizations ?
Mr. Crowley. The Labor League had membership of maybe 20 or
30, to my knowledge, and the Ralph Neafus Club had a membership
of, a regular membership of about 10 or 15 people and others came in
and left from time to time. Some people were invited into a meeting
and they would leave and would not come back and some would stay
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5775
in a few weeks and left and the Haldane Club was quite small. I
think it had about 8 or 10 people, if that. i • i ,-
Mr. Clardy. Wasn't there a fourth organization m town, or didn t
you know about the club downtown called the Town Club ?
Mr. Crowley. I knew there was a group downtown but I did not
belong to that. I did not have any connection with it.
Mr. Clardy. That downtown club is composed primarily of perma-
nent residents of xinn Arbor, is it not ?
Mr. Crowley. People live there, yes.
Mr. Clardy. But you knew there was such a Communist organi-
zation?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. And occasionally, I presume, there was some inter-
mingling of people from that club with the other clubs you belonged
to. **
Mr. Crowley. No, maybe socially but not politically.
]Mr. Clardy. I did not mean Communist Party meetings, but you
got together because of your common adherences to the Communist
Party.
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. That is all I have on that point.
Mr. KuNZiG. Before I go into the final part of your testimony, which
is the names of the members in Haldane, I had you to the point
where you went to New York and had no specific contact except that
you did go to certain Communist front rallies. Did you ever go to
any other schools ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I enrolled at the Jefferson School.
Mr. KuNziG. The Jefferson School of Social Science ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, and I stayed there about a month or so and
left it.
Mr. KuNZiG. Did you work at any summer camps ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, at Camp Unity.
Mr. Clardy. It has been identified but I think we should have this
further identification that the Jefferson School of Social Science was
a Communist school. You do know it to be such, do you not?
Mr. Crowley. Well, it certainly taught the Communist Party line.
Mr. Clardy. Do you know any students at the school who were not
members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Crowley. No, I did not know anyone who was a member there.
Mr. Walter. Where was this school ?
Mr. Crowley. In New York City.
Mr. Walter. Were there any members of the faculty at the school
who were not Communists ?
Mr. Crowley. I do not know as to whether or not they were because
I had no contact with them. I know certain of them expressed open
allegiance to the Communist Party but I don't know if they were mem-
bers or not. I don't know that.
Mr. Clardy. All you knew were ?
Mr. Crowley. The ones I knew were, yes.
Mr. Clardy. The students you knew to be members of the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Crowley. I did not know them to be members.
5776 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Velde. I am sorry we will bo unable to finish with this witness
before noon as we promised to adjourn jjromptly at noon, so the com-
mittee will stand in recess now until 2 o'clock this afternoon.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 00 noon, the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 2 ]). m., of the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(At the hour of 2: 07 p. m. of the same day. the proceedings were
resumed, Kepresentatives Harold H. Velde (chairman). Gordon II.
Scherer, Francis E. Walter (appearance noted in transcript), Morjran
M. JVIoulder (appearance noted in transcript), and Ch^le Doyle being
present.)
Mr. Vei.de. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Reporter, let the record show foi^'the purposes of the continued
hearing of Mr. Crowley's testimony that I have appointed a subcom-
mittee consisting of Mr. Scherer, Mr. Doyle, and myself as chairman,
and Mr. Walter, a quorum of the subcommittee.
Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
INIr. KuNziG. Would you please take the stand, Mr. Crowley.
TESTIMONY OF FRANCIS XAVIER THOMAS CROWLEY— Resumed
Mr. KuNziG. Before the luncheon break, I was questioning you about
the Haldane Club which you said you got into after you left the
Ralph Neaf us Club of the Communist Party.
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. The final questions I wish to ask you are about the
other members of the Haldane Club. Would you please tell the com-
mittee the names of those people and as much identifying information
as you can give about those whom you knew and remember only of
your personal knowledge to be members of the Connuunist Party
in the Haldane Club ?
Mr. Crowley. All right.
There was a man named Chuck Bisdee. I forget his first nanie.
jVIr. KuNziG. Do you have any further identiiicatiou of Chuck
Bisdee, age or address?
Mr. Crowley. No. He was a graduate student. I don't know his
address.
Mr. KuNZKi. At Michigan ?
Mr. Crowley. At ]\Iicliigan, yes. I believe he was in the AVC. I
was a member of that myself, the American Veterans Committee.
Mr. KuNZiG. But you knew Chuck Bisdee in the Connnunist Party,
too?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
]Mr. KuNziG. Any others?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, there was another member of the group, Max
Dean.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you identify him further?
Mr. Crowley. No, except he was a law sfudent at that time.
Mr. KuNZiG. I think the record at this time should show that Max
Dean very recently was a fifth amendment witness in Flint, Mich.,
and he was at the hearings we held out there.
He was in law school ?
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5777
Mr. Crowlf.y. Yes, he left and I doirt kno^y ^vhethe^• he came back.
Mr. KuNziG. You mean he left the university^
Mr. Crowley. That is fight.
Mr. KuNziG. And you never saw him again ?
Mr. Crowley. That is right. He may have come back but I don't
remember.
Mr. KuNziG. Any others ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, there Avas Jack Geist. I believe it is spelled
(3<.e-i-s-t. He was there while I was there. I don't know any other
identification of him except that he also was a graduate student.
Mr. KuNziG. I think the record should show that Geist, after leav-
ing the University of Michigan, became an instructor or assistant pro-
fessor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. In June of
1952 he applied for a United States passport for the purpose of teach-
ing at the University of Israel. You have no further information
beyond that ])oint ? '^^You knew Jack Geist to be a member of the
Connnunist Party i
Mr. Croavley. Yes.
My. Kunzig. Any others?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, there is a Martin Hoffman. He Avas also a stu-
dent there. I kneAv him. He Avas a graduate student.
Mr. DoYT.E. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I did not have the benefit of being here
this morning. I was in my Armed Services Committee, and I have
just noticed the witness saying in answer to counsel's question, "Do
you know him to be a member of the Communist Party?"; I presume
counsel laid the foundation generally laid and I think that ahvays
should be laid as to how this witness knoAvs that these people were
members of the Communist Party.
Mr. KuNziG. Yes, Mr. Doyle, that has been gone into at length.
INIr. Doyt.e. I presume you did that this morning.
JNlr. KuNziG. The Avitness testified that Avhile at the University of
Michigan he was in both the Ralph Neafus Club of the Communist
Party and he testified about that in detail, and also the Haldane Club
of the Communist Party.
Mr. Doyle. And were those closed meetings ?
Mr. KuNziG. Yes, sir, closed meetings, and Ave specified that he name
only those people he knows definitely to be members of the Communist
Party.
]Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
Mr. KuNziG. You mentioned Martin Hoffman. Do you have any
further identification of Martin Hoffman that will help us ?
Mr. Croavley. He Avas a graduate student and I believe he taught
for a while.
IVIr. KuNziG. Do you have any idea what he taught ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, psychology.
Mr. KuNZiG. At Michigan?
]\Ir. Croavley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you knoAv Lloyd L. Barenblatt?
Mr. Croavley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Tell us about your knowledge of Lloyd Barenblatt.
Mr. Croavley. He also was a graduate student there and I liA^ed Avith
him. We shared an apartment for a while.
5778 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. KuNziG. Then you knew him very well?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. And you knew him to be a member of the Haldane
Ckib in the Communist Party?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, just the Haldane Club.
Mr. KuNZiG. The Haldane Club of the Communist Party, I should
say.
Mr. Crowley. Yes, and to my knowledge he left that and he left the
University of Michigan.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know where he teaches at the present time, if
he teaches?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, he is at Vassar. I would like to say, in fairness
to him :
Mr. KuNziG. Any testimony you can give, we would be glad to have.
Mr. Crowley. Yes, that he expressed to me his opinion that he was
pretty much of the same opinion tliat I was about membership in the
party. I am convinced that he has left it, the Communist Party.
Mr. KuNziG. Your close knowledge of him was up to about 1950?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I have seen him a few times since then, occa-
sional visits.
Mr. KuNziG. Are there any others ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, there was a Mazie Gusakoff.
Mr. KuNZiG. Would you spell Mazie Gusakoff ?
Mr. Crowley. G-u-s-a-k-o-f-f. The Mazie I am not sure of.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew her to be a member of the Haldane Club of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, for a while she attended meetings there.
Mr. KuNziG. During the period of time that you did ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. How about Lester Beberf all ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, he was a member at that time.
Mr. KuNziG. Of the Haldane Club ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. And you knew him to be a member definitely of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, in the Haldane Club meetings.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you give us any further identification on Leiiter
Beberf all, any further assistance ?
Mr. Crowley. He was a graduate student.
Mr. KuNziG. Where ?
Mr. Crowley. At the University of Michigan, and I believe he was
a teaching fellow in the language department.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know where he is at the present time ?
Mr. Crowley. No, I don't.
Mr. KuNziG. When did you have any contact with him last?
Mr. Crowley. In 1950.
Mr. KuNziG. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Keporter, let the record show that I have appointed
a new subcommittee consisting of Mr. Moulder, Mr. Doyle, and myeelf
as chairman, for the purpose of continuing this hearing.
(Representative Morgan M. Moukler entered the hearing room at
this point.)
(Representative Francis E. Walter left tlie hearing room at this
point. )
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5779
Mr. KuNziG. I presume you have no questions of this witness, Mr.
Moulder.
Mr. Moulder. No questions.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Yes, Mr. Chairman, and may I be privileged to ask just
a few. Again I realize that I don't know what you have answered
by way of questions from committee members, but I do see from the
record that there were proceedings against you initiated in Congress.
Mr. Crowley. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. And your previous refusal to answer questions before
the committee which the committee felt were such that your answers
placed you in a legitimate contempt. Now, you are back here
voluntarily ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
j\Ir. Doyle. You are here without counsel ?
Mr, Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Evidently voluntarily, is that correct ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, you are here now helping the committee
in its legal responsibility ^ I want to compliment you for doing that.
I see you are a comparatively young man, evidently in a position of
some leadership and responsibility. That places an additional respon-
sibility on you.
But have you any suggestion to make to this committee out of your
experience w^hich might add to our effectiveness, in your judgment,
in our discharge of our duties under Public Law 601 ?
Mr. Crowley. No, it is hard for me to add anything to the proce-
dures you have taken. I w^ould say that I think there are quite a few
people who, like myself, were members of the Communist Party and
no longer are and have some reason or other for refusing to co-
operate with the committee or testify. Those people are doing a great
disservice to themselves and to the country ancl I think that they could
be reasoned wntli to take the approach I have taken.
I think it would be well worth the effort to try to convince these
people with arguments that they are wrong by not testifying.
Mr. Doyle. Yes, but you were an American citizen when you were
appearing before the committee before.
Mr. Crowley. That is the mistake I made.
Mr. Doyle. Tliis was the same committee.
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. And yet you pleaded your constitutional privilege.
Mr. Crow^ley. No, I did not, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. He just refused to testify.
Mr. Doyle. That is what placed you in legitimate contempt.
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Have you any suggestions to this committee as to how
we could perhaps induce more young men and women or older citizens
to, as you say, help the committee in helping to discharge its official
duties? \Miat can we do? We have given an invitation over the
radio and through the press and every other way.
Mr. Crowley. One way might be if a witness is willing to cooperate,
to safeguard them in some way, provided they do not take the course
I took and refuse to testify, to safeguard them in some way from
;-501T2 — 54— i»t. 9 5
5780 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
publicity or from harmful social repercussions. That is an un-
fortunate thinof.
Mr. Doyle. Yes, but you are ^oinfj to suffer.
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I learned myself that I took the wrong course.
Mr. Doyle. Now, why do you place yourself in perhaps a place
where there will be repercussions? Why do you do it now and you
did not do it before ?
Mr. Crowley. Well, I have a sense of responsibility now that I did
not have then, and I have something to live for other than just my-
self. I have a wife and I am going to have a child. When I ap-
peared before the committee the last time I had neitlier of those and
I am not going to punish them for something I did, something I do
not believe in.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, before you were following the Com-
munist Party line and refusing to cooperate with the committee?
]\Ir. Crowley. No, I was not following it. I was just acting on my
own impulse. I had not yet any contact with the Communist Party
since 1950 when I appeared the last time. It was my own decision
to do it that way. I was wrong.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you very much.
Mr. KuNziG. No further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Moulder, do you have any questions?
Mr. Moulder. I was not here during the earlier part of your testi-
mony, but did you explain to the committee what influence persuaded
you to go into the party ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I did. I said that I was searching for some kind
of a faith or ideology to hang onto, some spiritual thing, and I thought
that was it. It served for a whole. It took the place of a faith that
I had lost.
I was brought up as a Catholic and it was some kind of spiritual
help to me, a support, a crutch to lean on while I was in it. And
then I saw what it was and I lost that and I have gone back to my
original faith. But I think my reason was because I was at odd ends
with myself and the world and I did not know how to solve my own
personal problems.
Mr. Moulder. At that time did you consider yourself a party to the
conspiracy of a world revolutionary movement to overthrow our form
of government ?
Mr. Crowley. I do not think I ever thought of it that way, that I
was actively, you know, engaged in that kind of thing. I am convinced
I never thought of it in the terms of a conspiracy. Maybe I did not
realize it or maybe I was naive about it, but I do not think I ever felt
like that.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask one more question, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Do I understand that for a period of perhaps 2 or 3
years you tried to substitute communism for the Christian faith and
found it was no substitute ?
Mr. Crowley. That is right, that sums it up.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
Mr. Velde. I have just a few questions. Mr. Crowley. I do not
mean to be castigating you by any stretch of the imagination. On the
other hand, I do want to congratulate you on taking the stand you
have taken today, but there is something that worries me about mem-
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5781
bers of the Communist Party who remain in membership after 1948
and 1949. There has been quite a little information given out by
legitimate Government officials concerning the nature of the Commu-
nist Party after that time. I am wondering whether you or any of
your fellow members of the Communist Party in 1950 ever considered
the statements made by our Supreme Court and this Un-American
Activities Committee and other committees of Congress concerning the
nature of the Communist conspiracy.
Did you ever stop to consider that ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, I followed the Smith trials, the original Smith
trials of the Communist Party leaders and up to about the time of the
Korean war or shortly after it began I did not think that the Com-
munist Party was guilty in tlie sense that the Smith Act had indicted
it to be, or the leaders of the Communist Party.
Mr. Velde. You were in the party how long after the Korean war
started ?
Mr. Cro\vley. I was in the party until about August 1950, about
July of 1950. The Korean war started in June.
Mr. Velde. June 30, wasn't it, or about the 20th of June.
Well, now, Mr. Crowley, at the time that we sent troops to South
Korea to defend against the onslaught of North Koreans, were you
propagandized into believing that the attack was by the South
Koreans '^
Mr. Crowley. I was at that time.
Mr. Velde. Did you feel that it was?
Mr. Crowley. I did when the fighting first started, but I changed
my mind about that, as I think a lot of people did.
'Mr. Velde. That is when you were in the Haldane Club ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Velde. And you were a postgi'aduate student and so were tne
others, mostly postgraduate students ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Velde. Did they ever discuss this topic in closed meetings of
the Haldane Club, that is, who is the aggressor in the Korean war?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, the opinion was that South Korea was the
aggressor.
Mr. Velde. How did they arrive at that conclusion ?
Mr. Crowley. I don't know. It was just stated that South Korea
invaded North Korea.
Mr. Velde. Did it come from higher sources in the Communist
Party ; do you know ?
Mr. Crowley. Well, it must have, because I do not think anyone
there would have, you know, devised that explanation for the war.
Mr. Velde. Do you recall any of the other matters which were
discussed by your group in the meetings at the Haldane Club par-
ticularly ?
Mr. Crowley. Let me see.
Mr. Velde. Did you study Marxism ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes, pamphlets on Marxism. I forget which ones,,
but the discussion centered around, as I recall, literature and cultures,
on the subjects of arts, the relation to communism of Marxism, what
is the function of the artist in that respect.
The Haldane Club was chiefly an intellectual group, discussion
group.
5782 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Velde. That was onl}^, as you testified before, about S or 10
members of the postgraduate group at the University of Michigan?
Mr. Crowijey. Yes.
i\Ir. Velde. Do you liave any idea how many postgraduates were
in the University of Michigan at that time ?
Mr. Crowley. The student body was about 20,000 aUogether, and
I think there must have been about at least 15,000 in the college, so
I guess the graduate students would be 12,000 to 15,000, I think.
Mr. Velde. Of course, that is a very miinite ))ercentage considering
tlie whole population. However, we have seen how small percentages
of dyed-in-the-wool Communist Party members can take over large
majorities in other countries behind the Iron Curtain.
You say, however, you did not have any idea you were engaged in
a conspiracy to overthrow the American constitutional form of gov-
ernment ?
\lv. Croavley. No.
Mr. Velde. Do you feel that your colleagues had that idea, that they
were engaged in a conspiracy ?
Mr. Crowley. I am sure that the ones I knew did not have that
notion. They were people who were mostly the intellectual ty])e of
people who were getting their feet wet on something or other. Some
of them may haA^e had that in their mind, but I never heard it expressed
in the terms of overthrowing anything. It was never expressed to me
that way.
]\Ir. Velde. Could we sum up your reasons for going into the Com-
munist Party in the first place and your reasons for getting out
something like this ; that you were personally disturbed over the social
situation in the United States and that you had personal problems
of your own that you thought you could solve by getting into the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Crowley. Yes.
Mr. Velde. And that is the reason you got in ?
And now, as far as getting out of the Communist Party, did you
ever submit a formal resignation ?
Mr. Crowley. No, when I left the Haldane Club, which was in
July of 1950, and I left Ann Arbor at the same time, in August, after
I graduated, and I never got a transfer or anything of that sort.
I just stopped.
Mr. Velde. You just stopped attending meetings of all kinds in
1950 and had nothing further to do with the Communist Party
whatsoever?
Mr. Crowley. That is right.
Mr. Velde. And your reasons for getting out of the party or for
being disinterested in further attendance in meetings in the Com-
munist Party was that you felt it had not solved your personal
problems?
Mr. Crowley. It had not solved my personal problems and it had
not done me — in fact, it had done me more harm than good because
it had given me a false picture of the world, a false picture of what
is right and wrong. From the way I am living, I am certainly not
living according to the way a Communist might be expected to live.
And I feel I am right now, so I must have been Avrong then.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5783
Mr. Velde. I am glad to hear you say that. You definitely feel
now that the Communist Part}' is a conspiracy and not a political
party whatsoever ?
Mr. Crowley. That is right.
Mr. Velde. May 1 say that we certainly do appreciate the informa-
tion you have given here voluntarily to the committee.
As I mentioned before, the connnittee would not be authorized as
a body to ask for innnunity from pi'osecution for you. However, I
do feel that many of the members of the committee, probably a big
majority, feel that you have performed a service to your country by
giving us the information that you have and that would possibly be a
good reason why the Attorney General should drop prosecution in
your particular case for contempt.
Does any other member have anything further ?
Do you have anything further, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. KuNziG. Nothing further.
Mr. Velde. If not, the witness is excused with the committee's
thanks.
Call your next witness.
Mr. KuNziG. Robert H. Silk.
Mr. Velde. Will you raise your right hand ?
Mr. Silk. Mr. Chairman, before I take the oath, I wish to raise
an objection to the jurisdiction of this committee to administer the
oath.
Mr. Velde. You have no right to raise any objection to the juris-
diction of this committee.
Does the witness refuse to take the oath ?
Mr. Silk. I will take the oath, under protest.
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give before this sub-
committee, do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the wdiole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Silk. I do.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Reporter, for the purposes of this hearing, let the
record show that I have appointed as a subcommittee Mr. Walter, Mr.
INIoulder, Mr. Doyle, and myself as chairman, four membei-s are
present as a quorum.
Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
TESTIMONY OF EOBEET H. SILK, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
JOSEPH FORER
Mr. KuNziG. Will you state your full name, please ?
Mr. Silk. Robert H. Silk.
Mr. KuNziG. Your present address?
Mr. Silk. 850 West I76th Street, New York City. .
Mr. KuNziG. I see that you are accompanied by counsel. Would
counsel please give his name and address ?
Mr. FoRKR. Joseph Forer, 711 14th Street NW., Washington, D. C.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Silk, would you please give the committee a very
brief resume of your educational background?
Mr. Silk. How far back do you want to go?
Mr. KuxziG. Start with high school.
Mr. Silk. Bronx High School of Science in New York City.
Mr. KuNziG. When did you graduate?
5784 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Silk. I tliink it was in January 1943, to the best of my recollec-
tion.
Mr. KuNziG. And from then on.
Mr. Silk. I entered the University of Michigan, the Lit School,
and I was there — I entered immediately and I was there until approxi-
mately January of 1944. I had 1 year there.
Then I enlisted in the merchant marine and I was there until after
the war.
In June of 1946 — and these are all approximate; I am not certain
of the exact dates — but I reentered the University of Michigan and
took 2 years of undergraduate school, whereupon I entered the law
school, which was in September 1948 and I graduated from law school
in June of 1951.
Mr. KuNziG. Are you now a member of any bar?
Mr. Silk. I am.
Mr. KuNziG. Of what State?
Mr. Silk. The States of Michigan and New York.
Mr. KuNziG. Are you practicing law at the present time?
Mr. Silk. I am.
Mr. KuNziG. Wlien did you become a member of the bar of Michi-
gan and when of New York ?
Mr. Silk. Michigan, I believe it was September of 1951 and in
New York in June of 1952.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, were you present in the room this morning dur-
ing the testimony of Mr. Crowley ?
Mr. Silk. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Then you heard your name mentioned as one of those
wliom Mr. Crowley knew to be a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Silk. I heard my name mentioned as such.
Mr. KuNziG. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Silk. I respectfully decline to answer that question upon the
following grounds : I invoke the fifth amendment, which gives me a
right to refuse to be a witness against myself; I invoke the lifth
amendment, which gives me an opportunity to avoid — the due process
clause specifically which does not subject me to criminal prosecution
for the violation of a vague and indefinite penal statute, as I deem
the authorizing resolution of this committee to be.
I do so upon the ground of the first amendment which gives me a
privilege to speak my mind, to have what political associates I will.
Mr. KuNziG. You refuse to answer on the ground that it might
incriminate you ; is that right ?
Mr. Silk. I refuse to answer upon all those grounds, including
that ground that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Velde, One of those being that this committee is not consti-
tutionally formed?
Mr. Silk. I did not set forth such a ground in my refusal, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Velde. However, the statute forming it was in the nature of a
criminal statute ; is that right ?
Mr. Silk. The statute forming it authorizes the committee to con-
duct a certain type of investigation.
There is another section in the United States Code which makes
refusal to answer questions pertinent to the investigation to be a
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5785
criminal offense. It is impossible from the nature of the resolution
of the committee in this case to know what is pertinent to the
investigation.
Mr. Velde. Well, let me ask you, Mr, Silk, do you think it is crimi-
nal for a committee of your Congress to investigate subversives and
subversive activities and report to the Congress, to your Congress, for
remedial legislation. Do you thinly; that is criminal?
Mr. Silk. No.
Mr. Velde. I am glad to hear you say that. Proceed.
Mr. KuNziG. Apparently you do not worry about the Supreme
Court making decisions.
Mr. Silk. Name one. The Supreme Court has denied certiorari
in every case, to my knowledge.
There were two cases, the Josej^hson case and the Barsky case, both
of which the Supreme Court denied "cert." on. I don't know of other
cases, but it is simply to that inadequacy that I speak as a lawyer.
Mr. KuNziG. You can contact your lawyer on that.
Mr. Silk, did you ever know Francis X. T. Crowley ?
Mr. Silk. I decline to answer that upon the grounds which were
previously stated.
Mr. KuNziG. I am just asking you whether you ever knew him ?
Mr. Silk. I decline to answer that upon the grounds which I have
previously stated.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you ever a member of the Ralph Neaf us Club of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Silk. I decline to answer upon the grounds which I have pre-
viously stated.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you ever a member of the Haldane Club of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Silk. Same answer.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you ever a member of the National Lawyers'
Guild?
Mr. Silk. Same answer.
Mr. KuNziG. I presume, ISIr. Chairman, that it would be unneces-
sary to show this witness a list of the membership report of the stu-
dent organization of the National Lawyers' Guild. However, I will
pass it over to you, Mr. Silk.
It says, under "Organization," the following: "National Lawyers'
Guild."
This will be identified as Silk exhibit No. 1 for identification.
(Organization list of National Lawyers' Guild was marked "Silk
Exhibit No. 1" for identification.)
Mr. KuNziG. It says —
National Lawyers' Guild, nature of organization : To promote legal education
and discussion supplementary to law school.
And listed on the list is Robert H. Silk.
I hand you this document marked "Exhibit No. 1" for identifica-
tion and ask you if you are the Robert H. Silk listed there on the
National Lawyers' Guild.
Mr. Silk. I decline to answer that question upon the same grounds.
Mr. KuNziG. The Robert H. Silk listed under Ann Arbor, addressed
to 118 Falch.
Did you ever live at 118 Falch ?
5786 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Silk. I decline to answer that question upon the same grounds.
Mr. Kunzk;. 1 merely asked you whether you eyer liyed at 118
Falch.
Mr. Silk. I decline to answer that upon the same grounds hereto-
fore set forth.
Mr. KixziG. Were you a memher of the Michigan Youth for Demo-
cratic Action, an affiliate of the AYD?
Mr. Silk. I decline to answer that question on the grounds set fgrth
preyiously.
Mr. KuxziG. Isn't it a fact you were also a member of the Young
Progressiyes while you were there ?
Mi-. Silk. I make the same answer to that question. I decline to
answer for the same reasons.
Mr. Velde. It will be noted that where you decline to answer here-
after that it will be for the reasons preyiously stated, in order to saye
time.
Mr. Silk. Thank you, Mr. Velde.
Mr. KuNZiG. Did you eyer send in $202 to the National Guardian
from Ann Arbor on an operation called "Bootstrap'' ?
Mr. Silk. I decline to answer that question for the same reasons.
Mr. KuNziG. The August 30, 1950, issue of the National Guardian,
edited by Cedric Belfrage, who is well known in his attitude and be-
hayior as a witness before this committee last year, has that in black
and white, a letter from a Bob Silk from Ann Arbor, j\lich. The
letter states :
Enclosed is $.5 for Bootstrap. This, wlien added to $1.53 previously sent by
me, plus $4 proceeds from Northwoods party equals a total of $202. We are
ajrain over the top. Except (sic) to continue plugging for the paper. The new
goal is $300.
Bob Silk.
Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Silk. I decline to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. KuNziG. I am asking you at the ])resent time. You are a
member of the bar, Mr. Silk, a member of the bar of two great States
in this country, Michigan and New York.
I am asking you at the present time as a fellow member of the bar
of the Commonwealth of Pennsylyania, are you now a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Silk. I decline to answer that for the same reason and I would
appreciate being heard on my understanding of the fifth amendment.
Mr. KuNziG. We understand that you haye taken the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Silk. There is no inference of guilt, I know of no inference
of negatiye or aflii-matiye inference — that when a person inyokes a
priyilege
Mr. KuNziG. But there has been sworn testimony this morning that
you had been a member of the Communist Party, at least up to 1950.
This is an opportunity for you.
So many people say, "I neyer had an opportunity to affirm or
deny."
Here is a sworn statement and you haye an opportunity to deny it
if it is false.
I will ask you again, haye you eyer been a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5787
Mr. Silk. Same answer.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you take an oath as a member of the bar?
Mr. Silk. I did. Two, I should say, one in Michijjan and one in
New York.
Mr. KuNZiG. And you hold to that oath today as well as the day
you took it ?
Mr. Silk. I most firmly do, without equivocation.
Mr. KuNziG. But you do not wish to say anything about the testi-
mony given that you are a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Silk. I have given my answer. I decline to answer on the
grounds previously set forth.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you a member of the Communist Party prior
to taking the oath of the Michigan Bar and the New York Bar?
Mr. Silk. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. KuNZiG. Were you a member of the Communist Party when
you were in the merchant marine in the Armed Forces ?
Mr. Silk. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. KuNziG. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Silk. I was never a member of the Armed Forces.
Mr. KuNZiG. I will subtract the Armed Forces.
Mr. Silk. Fxcept that I was a member of the Naval Reserve on in-
active status.
Mr. KuNziG. Ave you a member of the Naval Reserve today?
Mr. Silk. No; I am not.
Mr. KuNziG. No further questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Walter.
Mr. Walter. No questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Are you a member of the American Bar Association?
Mr. Silk. I am not.
Mr. Kltnzig. Are you a member of the New York Bar?
Mr. Silk. The New York State Bar Association, no.
Mr, KuNziG. Are you a member of the New York City Bar Asso-
ciation or any bar association?
Mr. Silk. I decline to answer that question upon the grounds pre-
viously set forth.
Mr. KuNziG. Is it a criminal thing to be a member of a bar asso-
ciation? If so, I would lilve to know. I am a member of several.
Mr. Forer. A^^len you say bar association, you had better specify.
Mr. KuNziG. Other than the National Lawyers' Guild ?
Mr. Forer. The Association of the Bar of the city of New York.
Mr. KuNziG. Are you a member of any bar association in Michigan?
Mr. Silk. Well, Michigan has an integrated bar and I suppose I
am. I am not too sure.
Mr. KuNziG. By being a member of the bar, you automatically
become a member of the association.
Mr. Silk. You have to pay $10 and I have not kept it up. I don't
know what my status is. It is not an active membership in the Michi-
gan bar.
Mr. Doyle. I am a lawyer too, I might say to the witness, though
I have not worked at it for 9 years.
I don't know if you said it, but by inference at least to me I think
I heard you infer that the statute under which we operate as a con-
30172— 54— pt. 9 6
5788 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
gressional committee is, in your judgment, unconstitutional; is that
correct ?
Mr. Silk. In my most humble opinion it is not constitutional.
Mr, Doyle. And I think you raised other objections to it. I did
not quite get the point.
I will ask you the question again, what objection do you have to
the statutes under which we operate. Public Law 601 ?
Mr. Silk, 1 have an objection to the resohition under which you
are operating, based upon several grounds. I will set them forth.
My first objection to this is that the committee is authorized to inves-
tigate propaganda that attacks the principle of the form of gov-
ernment as guaranteed by our Constitution. That is absolutely mean-
ingless,
I defy anybody in the whole world to come to agreement with any
other person in the whole world as to what "the" principle of the form
of government that is guaranteed by our Constitution is. There are
principles, yes, and we even have disagreement on that, but what is
"the" principle? I don't know,
I am compelled to answer questions pertinent to the investigation.
What is pertinent to this is absolutely incredible. I don't know what it
is and I do not think anybody would agree.
Mv. Doyle. My purpose in my asking you the question was perhaps
twofold ; first, you are a young lawyer and I am quite shocked, frankly,
to see you at your age take the position of refusing to cooperate with
your own congressional committee on the basis of being here with your
own counsel, and we are glad he is here; but you were present in this
hearing room and heard this man identify you as a member of the
Communist Party, and you have refused to reply to his statement un-
der oath.
Now, that manifestly puts you out where you cannot go out and
claim that you do not have a chance to defend yourself because you
have had your chance. It looks to me as though your lips are sealed so
far as any comment and criticism is concerned and I do not mean that
by your claiming the fifth amendment that there is any inference in
my mind that you are a member of the Communist Party either, because
I recognize what the court's decisions are on that point.
The other reason I asked you that question was to see whether your
answer would help me as a member of this committee, would help me
understand why you, a young man of the bar, would undertake to argue
that this statute was unconstitutional. I am frank to say that this is
the first time I have heard the sort of argument you have given, but
I am going to hear it because it further helps me to understand how
you, a young member of the bar, would claim the privilege.
Now, may I be just personal for 1 minute.
Wliy don't you get out of that outfit ? Why don't you clean house
and get out of any association that makes you feel it is right to come in
before a congressional committee and refuse to help your Congress
clean up on these subversives?
You have not admitted you are subversive, I know, and there is no
inference you are merely because you plead the fifth amendment, but
in my book and I might as well be frank with you, in my book, from
your answers and the records we have of your affiliation, it makes me
very fearful that if you go on the way you are as a young lawyer and
a young American, 3'ou are not only going to harm yourself more and
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5789
your family more, but you are going to harm your country more than
you have already.
You see, some of us know boys who are dead in order that you might
have a chance.
Mr. Silk. I have never harmed my country and I do not think that
it is very proper for you to suggest.
Mr. Doyle. You are harming right now when you are refusing to
help us uncover subversives. You know very well you are, and don't
you forget. I am telling you in just that strong language where, as a
member of the bar, you are likely to see the day that you will recog-
nize that you are harming the country that gave you birth and you
ought to be ashamed of yourself.
I don't know how to make it any more personal, but that is just
the way I mean it. I am just ashamed to see a young man of your
ability and leadership ability and apparently you have refused to
cooperate with your own congressional committee.
You do not even deny that you are a member of the Communist
Party now. Most of your people come in and say no, I am not a
member now.
You do not even say that. You are one of a very, very few. Most
of the witnesses who come here and plead the fifth amendment, if
they are honest, they tell us "I am not a member now." Even
though they do refuse to say whether or not they were members
yesterday. You do not even take that position.
Mr. Silk. I think I am honest, sir.
Mr. Doyle. You what ?
Mr. Silk. I think I am honest, sir. I also think that I am a good
American.
Mr. Doyle. May I just make this one further observation to you
Mr. Silk. By not cooperating with this committee, I am a better
American than if I cooperated with the committee.
Mr. Walter. You are a glorified draft dodger.
Mr. Silk. Thank you for slurring the members of the merchant
marine. They suffered more casualties in proportion to their members
than any other group of the Armed Forces and they have no GI bill
of rights either.
Mr. Doyle. May I make this one further observation, and I say
this very earnestly to you, that when you say you are a better American
because you refuse to cooperate with this committee, as I understand
it, that is equivalent to saying you are a better American than the
United States Congress membership is because we passed Public Law
601, and therefore you are discrediting the judgment and the ulti-
matum of the United States Congress when you say you are a better
American when you refuse to'cooperate with a statute of the American
Congress.
One thing more, and I am through. You emphasized something
about the laws of freedom to think as you please, and my position is
this, and I want you to understand it; I take the position that you
as a young man have a right to be as you want and do what you want
and say what you want in this country as long as you do it within
the 4 corners of the United States Constitution, and when it goes
outside the 4 corners of the Constitution that means you are in viola-
tion of the law, and any outfit that is subversive is in violation of
5790 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTR.\TIOX (EDUCATION)
the law, and that is why we are after the Communist Party member-
ships, identifyino; tliat as one of the subversive outfits.
Mr. Silk. Tliank you, sir.
I stay M-ithin tlie four corners of the United States Constitution.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde, You may proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. KuNziG. What is vour present age ?
Mr. Silk. 28.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer in evidence exhibit
No. 1 for identification, previously identified.
Mr. Velde. Without obligation, it will be introduced in evidence.
(Organization list of National Lawyer's Guild, marked "Silk
Exliibit No. 1" for identification, was received in evidence.)'
INIr. KuNzio. I have nothing furthei-.
Mr. Velde. In line Avith what Mr. Walter said, what is your draft
status at the present time?
(At this point Mr. Silk conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Silk. I really don't know. I am over the age of induction,
which is 26. I have my draft card in my wallet. It is -i-A. I am
over the age that they are drafting now anyway. I think they are
stopping at 26 or something like that.
Mr. Velde. AA'hat is your draft board number, or where is it located ?
Mr. Silk. It is in Ann Arbor.
(At this point Mr. Silk conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Silk. My selective service registration certificate is signed
by tlie registrar for th.e local board No. 85, in Ann Arbor, Mich.
Mr. Veij)e. Mr. Silk, do you believe that it is a crime to belong to
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Silk. I do not believe it is, as a matter of fact.
Mv. Velde. Then why don't you answer whether you are a member
of the Communist Party at the present time? You used the fifth
amendment, which is a privilege against self-incrimination. Is it
that you have contempt for this committee?
Mr. Silk. I have used the fifth amendment because the courts have
continuously upheld the use of the fifth amendment in response to
that question.
Mr. Velde. Even though you have not been involved in any crime.
You feel — you just said that you do not feel it is any crime to belong
to the Communist Party and regardless of that fact you still decline
to ansAver that on the basis of the privilege against self-incrimination.
(At this point Mr. Silk conferred with Mr. Forer.)
Mr. Doyle. I will ask that the witness be instructed to answer the
question.
Mr. Forer. I would like to have the question.
Mr. Silk. I don't understand the question.
Mr. Velde. Actually it was not a question.
Mr. Silk. I see.
Mr. Doyle. Maybe his mind wnll be changed when he states here
and now that he doesn't think it is a crime to be a member of the
Communist Party.
Mr. Silk. That is just my opinion. I don't know. I think it is not.
Mr. Velde. Certainly you are raising the inference in some minds
1 Retiiined in committee files.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5791
that you are a member of the Communist Party and a member of the
Communist conspiracy and certainly it is leaving the impression m
my mind.
Do you have any further questions, Mr. Counsel?
Mr. KuNziG. INothing further, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. If not, the witness is excused. Call the next witness.
Mv. KuNziG. Norman Cazden.
Mr. Yelde. In the testimony you are about to give before this sub-
connnittee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the
whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Cazden. I do.
Mr. Velde. Will you be seated.
TESTIMONY OF NORMAN CAZDEN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
JOSEPH EORER
Mr. KuNziN. Would you give your full name, please, sir?
Mr. Cazden. Norman Cazden.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you spell them, please ?
Mr. Cazden. N-o-r-m-a-n C-a-z-d-e-n.
Mr. KuNziG. Your present address '?
Mr. Cazden. 84 Keeler Avenue, Bridgeport, Conn.
Mr. KuNziG. Would counsel identify himself for the record?
Mr. Fokek. Joseph Forer, Til 14th Street NW., Washington, D. C.
]\Ir. KuNziG. Would you give the committee a brief resume of your
educational background, sir?
Mr. Cazden. I presume you mean my formal educational back-
ground ?
Mr. KuNziG. Yes, starting with high school.
Mr. Cazden. I attended Morris High School in New York City and
I believe the date of my gi-aduation was June 1930. I attended the
Juilliard School of Music in New York City. I received several di-
plomas and betw^een 1930 and 1939 I received those diplomas.
I attended the College of the City of New York from 1938 to 1943
and received a bachelor's degree.
I attended Harvard University from 1943 to 1945 and subsequently
was on graduate fellowship. While there I attained a master of arts
degree, doctor of philosophy degree.
^Ir. Kunzig. At what institution?
Mr. Cazden, Harvard University.
Mr. Velde. Did you say a bachelor's degree at Harvard?
Mr. Cazden. At the College of the City of New York.
Mr. Velde. What degree at Harvard?
Mr. Cazden. Master of arts and doctor of philosophy.
Mr. KuNziG. Dr. Cazden, would you give us a resume of your em-
ployment background, the highlights of your employment?
Mr. Cazden. That would be pretty hard to do because music is a
very free-lance type of occupation and I have engaged in so many
different things, sometimes simultaneously. When you try to get
them in order it is a little difficult. I will try to give you the bigger
things that I can recall.
Mr. Kunzig. Just the main points, then.
5792 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Cazden. I have been a teacher of music. I ffiiess I started
teaching back in 1928, piano and composition and sucn. I taught at
a number of schools and colleges.
First was at Juilliard School of Music where I was a part-time in-
structor of the piano.
I taught at Vassar College and I taught at the Peabody Conserva-
tory at Baltimore, at the University of Michigan, and I taught at the
University of Illinois.
I have engaged in many other musical activities which were not
teaching.
Mr. KuNziG. When did you teach at the University of Illinois?
Mr. Cazden. From 1950 until 1953.
Mr. Velde. Did you have a contract with the University of Illinois?
Mr. Cazden. Yes.
Mr. Vei.de. You are not under tenure ?
Mr. Cazden. I am not under tenure.
Mr. Velde. Has your contract expired ?
Mr. Cazden. The contract expired in 1953.
Mr. Velde. Did you make any attempt to get it renewed ?
Mr. Cazden. No.
Mr. Velde. Did the University of Illinois make any attempt to
renew the contract ?
Mr. Cazden. I do not know.
Mr. Velde. At least they never approached you to ask you to teach
there again?
Mr. Cazden. No, I taught in the summer season of 1953 and that
was the last.
Mr. KuNziG. How have you been employed since you left Illinois?
Mr. Cazden. I am self-employed.
Mr. KuNZTG. At the present time, that is.
Mr. Cazden. At the present time.
Mr. Velde. On a free-lance basis?
Mr. Cazden. On a free-lace basis.
Mr. KuNZiG. Dr. Cazden, were you present in the hearing room this
morn nig?
Mr. Cazden. I was here this morning.
Mr. KuNziG. And you heard yourself named as having been a
member of the Communist Party by Mr. Crowley, is that correct?
Mr. Cazden. I heard that statement.
Mr. KuNziG. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question on the basis of my
privileges under the fifth amendment not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. KuNziG. In a criminal proceeding.
Now, are you now today a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you ever in the Armed Forces ?
Mr. Cazden. I have never been in the Armed Forces.
Mr. Kunzto. Did you ever Imow Mr. Crowley who testified here
this morning ?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Kunzig. I merely asked you if you knew him when you were
out at Michigan.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5793
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. KuNziG. During the course of your teaching days at the Jeffer-
son School of Social Science
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question on the grounds al-
ready stated.
Mr. KuNziG. Dr. Cazden, I have here a Jefferson School of Social
Science for 1947, a full program prospectus, and it lists among other
names of people teaching there, Norman Cazden, graduate, Juilliard
School of Music, A. M., Harvard, taught at Juilliard, formerly on
music staff of WN YC and WLIB.
Were you ever on the music staff of WNYC and WLIB ?
Mr. Cazden. I have been on the music staff of both of those.
Mr. KuNziG. Are you the Norman Cazden listed here on this pro-
spectus of Jefferson School of Social Science, the fall term, 1947?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question on the grounds al-
ready stated.
Mr. KuNziG. This exhibit is marked Cazden 1 for identification,
and I offer it in evidence as Cazden Exhibit 1, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Without objection, it will be received in evidence at
this point.
(Photostat of document entitled "Jefferson School of Social Science,
September-December 1947," marked "Cazden Exhibit No. 1" for iden-
tification was received in evidence as Cazden Exhibit No. 1.)^
Mr. KuNziG. Here is the catalog of the spring term of 1947, Dr.
Cazden. It lists a Norman Cazden as lecturer, and so forth, music
and art.
Were you teaching at the Jefferson School of Social Science in the
spring term of 1947 ?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
already put forth.
Mr. KuNziG. Of course, the record will show that the Jefferson
School is a cited organization.
Were you ever connected with the National Council of Arts, Sciences
and Professions?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
already stated.
Mr. KuNziG. Were j'^ou a sponsor of the program of the Cultural
and Scientific Conference for World Peace ?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question on the grounds al-
deay stated.
Mr. Walter. What about the World Peace Conference that was held
on the 25th of March 1949 ?
Mr. Kunzig, is that what you are interrogating him about?
Mr. Kunzig. Yes.
Mr. Walter. I would like to know something about that World
Peace Conference. By way of refreshing your recollection, it was
held at the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel. Do you recall it ?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question on the grounds already
stated.
Mr. Walter. It would be quite helpful to the American people if
they knew how many of these peace conferences were Communist
fronts and Communist movements and what were the ffenuine efforts
* Retained in committee files.
5794 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
to obtain peace, and you are in the very peculiar position now to help
this committee and the American people in unmasking these phony
peace movements.
Can't you think back through the 25th to the 27th of March, at the
Waldorf-Astoria, in 1949?
Mr. Cazdex. Is that a question addressed to me, sir?
Mr. Walter. Yes.
Mr. Cazdex. I decline to answer that question on the grounds al-
ready stated.
Mr. KuxziG. I offer this program of Cultural and Scientific Con-
ference for AVorld Peace into evidence as Cazden Exhibit No. 3, Mr.
Chairman, and the catalog entitled ''Jefferson School of Social
Science, for April 1947 to June 1947," as Cazden Exhibit No. 2.
Mr. Velde. Without objection, Cazden Exhibits Xos. 2 and 3 will
be admitted into the record.
(Document entitled "Jefferson School of Social Science, April-
June, 1947,'' marked "Cazden Exhibit No. 2" for identification; and
document entitled "Program, the Cultural and Scientific Conference
for World Peace," marked "Cazden Exhibit No. 3" for identification,
were received in evidence as Cazden Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3.)^
Mr. KuNzio. No. 1 is the Jefferson School, September to December
1947 term; No. 2 is the Jefferson School, A]u-il to June 1947 term;
and No. 3 is the program of Cultural and Scientific Conference for
World Peace.
Now, did you ever live in Maryland, Dr. Cazden ?
Mr. Cazden. I lived in Maryland for about a year, school year,
that is.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you a member of the Citizens' Committee
Against the Ober Law?
Mr. Cazdex. I decline to answer that question on the grounds I have
already stated.
Mr. KuNziG. I have here a document marked "Cazden Exhibit No.
4" for identification, Mr. Chairman, Citizens' Committee Against the
Ober Law, 14 East Pleasant Street, Baltimore 2, Md. Listed on the
back is a partial list of hundreds of Maryland citizens who endorsed
the referendmn, among which is Dr. Norman Cazden's name.
Did you give permission for your name to be used for that purpose,
Dr. Cazden?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question on the grounds al-
ready stated.
Mr. KuNziG. I offer Cazden Exhibit No. 4 into evidence, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Without objection, it will be admitted at this point.
(Document entitled "Citizens Committee Against the Ober Law,"
marked "Cazden Exhibit No. 4" for identification, was received in
evidence as Cazden Exhibit No. 4.)^
Mr. KuNziG. What connection did you ever have, Dr. Cazden, with
Masses and Mainstream ?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question on the grounds already
stated.
Mr. KuNziG. The record will show, of course, that it is a cited
publication.
^ Retained in committee files.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5795
Did you have any connection with the Masses and Mainstream Arts
Forums in its first forum series featuring subjects and issues which
have aroused discussion amono- artists and audiences in recent months ?
Are you tlie Norman Cazden, composer ?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question for the reasons ah'eady
set forth.
Mr. KuxziG. This is as listed in the Daily Worker of April 12, 1948.
I oft'er in evidence this pag-e of the Daily Worker of April 12, 1948,
as Cazden Exhibit No. 5, Mr. Chairman.
]Mr. Velde. Without objection, it will be received into evidence at
this point.
(Copy of a page of the Daily Worker of April 12, 1948, marked
"Cazden Exhibit No. 5" for identification, was received in evidence as
Cazden Exhibit No. 5.) 1
IMr. KuNziG. Were you connected witli the Young Progressives at
Michigan ?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question for the reasons
already set forth.
Mr. KuNziG. Isn't it a fact that you were a faculty adviser for the
Young Progressives at the University of Michigan ?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question for the reasons
already set forth.
Mr. KuNziG. Can you tell me whether it was a custom at the Uni-
versity of IMichigan to have a member of the Communist Party as
a member of the faculty advisers for the Young Progressives?
Mr. Cazden. I do not know the customs of that college.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the
same time you were a faculty adviser for the Young Progressives?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question for the reasons
already set forth.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you a member of the University of Michigan
chapter of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions ?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question for the reasons
already set forth.
Mr. KuNziG. The national chapter of that, of course, is a cited
front organization.
If you knoAv, what control did the Communist Party play in the
Michigan chapter of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions?
Mr. Cazden. I decline to answer that question for the reasons
already set forth.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Chairman, there is a pile here, as you can see, of
this same type of thing that we have already been discussing, all
similar Communist cited papers, documents, organizations. I suggest
there is no further gain to be gotten by questioning this witness any
further, and I have no further questions.
Mr. Velde. The Chair agrees with counsel, and I am sure Mr.
Walter does, too.
Do you have any further questions, Mr. Walter?
Mr. Walter. Let me see that Jefferson School document.
Mr. Velde. The only thing. Professor Cazden, I might say on
behalf of my alma mater, the University of Illinois, is that I am very
1 Retained in committee files.
5796 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
sorry they saw fit to hire you and very happy they didn't see fit to
renew your contract.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Kdnztg. Mr. Beberfall.
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give before this
suIx;ommittee. do you solemnly swear j^ou will tell the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Beberfall. I do.
Mr. Velde. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OF LESTER BEBERFALL, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, A. HARRY LEVITAN
Mr. KuNZiG. Would you state your full name, Mr. Beberfall.
Mr. Beberfall. Lester Beberfall, B-e-b-e-r-f-a-1-1.
Mr. KuNziG. What is your present address, Mr. Beberfall?
Mr. Beberfall. 3206 Turner Street, Philadelphia.
Mr. KuNziG. Turner Street, Philadelphia ?
Mr. Beberfall. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Wliat part of Philadelphia is that, west, north, south?
Mr. Beberfall. It is northwest — -north central, I guess.
Mr. KuNZiG. Would counsel please state his name and office address
for the record.
Mr. LE^^;TA^r. A. Harry Levitan, L-e-v-i-t-a-n, 1412 Fox Building,
Philadelphia 3.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, Mr. Beberfall, would you give the committee
a brief resume of your schooling and formal educational background?
Mr. Beberfall. Manual Training High School, in Brooklvn, N. Y. ;
City College of New York, bachelor of science in English ; University
of Michigan, master of arts in Spanish ; University of Michigan, doc-
tor of philosophy, romance languages and literature.
Mr. KuNziG. What year did you get your Ph. D. from Michigan ?
Mr. Beberfall. 1952.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you at Michigan during the years 1948, 1949,
1950?
Mr. Beberfall. Yes, 1948, 1949, 1950.
Mr. KuNZiG. Would you give the committee a brief resume of your
employment after finishing your schooling.
Mr. Beberfall. The Wayne University in Detroit.
Mr. KuNziG. What did you do there ?
Mr. Beberfall. Instructor in Spanish.
Mr. KuNziG. And then where ?
Mr. Beberfall. Texas A. and M. College, instructor in Spanish
and German.
Mr. KuNziG. Then where ?
Mr. Beberfall. Spring City Pligh School, Spring City, Pa.
Mr. KuNziG. Is that where you are employed at the present time?
Mr. Beberfall. Yes.
Mv. KuNziG. You teach at Spring City High School ?
Mr. Beberfall. That is right.
Mr. KuNziG. Where is Spring City, Pa. ?
Mr. Beberfall. Chester County.
Mr. KuNZiG. That is just outside Philadelphia a little ways?
Mr. Beberfall. Thirty miles.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5797
Mr. KuNziG. Thirty miles from Pliiladelphia. What do you teach
at this high school ?
Mr. Beberfall. Spanish, Latin, English.
Mr. KuNZiG. Now, you were present, were you, in this hearing
room this morning and heard the testimony of Mr. Crowley ?
Mr. Beberfall. Yes, I was.
Mr. KuNziG. Were j^ou present when Mr. Crowley said he knew
Lester Beberfall as a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Beberfall. I heard that said.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you ever know Mr. Crowley? I am just asking
you now whether you ever knew Mr. Crowley out at Michigan.
Mr. Beberfall. I respectfully decline to answer that question on
the privilege granted to me by the fifth amendment.
Mr. KuNziG. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Beberfall. I decline to answer that question for the same rea-
son.
Mr. KuNziG. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Beberfall. I am not a member of the Communist Party now.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you a member of the Communist Party in 1953 ?
Mr. Beberfall. I decline to answer that question for the same rea-
son.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, you said you are not now a member of the Com-
munist Party. Were you a member of the Commmiist Party in
January of 1954?
Mr. Beberfall. January 1954?
(At this point Mr. Beberfall conferred with Mr. Levi tan.)
Mr. KuNziG. Think back as to when you got out.
(At this point Mr. Beberfall conferred with Mr. Levitan.)
Mr. KuNziG. January 1954 was the question.
Mr. Beberfall. January 1954?
Mr. KuNziG. Were you a member of the Communist Party in
January 1954?
Mr. Beberfall. No, I was not.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, I have already asked you and you refused to
answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment, as to 1953. Were you
a member of the Communist Party in December 1953 ?
Mr. Beberfall. No, I was not.
Mr. KuNziG. You were not. How about November of 1953 ?
JNIr. Beberfall. No, I was not.
Mr. KuNziG. How about October 1953?
Mr. Walter. Couldn't we save a lot of time by asking him when
he got out? I think that would be the most direct w^ay to do it.
Mr. Velde. I do, too, if he would answer.
Mr. Walter. When did you get out of the Communist Party?
(At this point JMr. Beberfall conferred with Mr. liCvitan.li
Mr. Beberfall. I decline to answer that question under the privi-
lege granted under the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. KuNziG. Then we will go back through the d?tes.
October of 1953 ; have you given an answer on October of 1953 ?
Mr. Beberfall. Yes, I did.
Mr. KuNziG. What was it?
Mr. Beberfall. The answer was "No."
Mr. KuNziG. All right. September of 1953 ?
5798 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATIOX (EDUCATION)
Mr. Bei'.eri^all. The answer is "No."
Mr. Velde. What was the answer 'i
Mr. KuNziG. No.
Aii<^ust of 1958 i
Ml". Bi'3EKFALL. I decline to answer.
Mr. KuNziG. All right. You decline to answer in August of 1953,
and you say you were not a member in September of 1953, so you are
saying that at tlie beginning of the term of instruction of September
1953 going up to the present time, the term that has just ended now
in June of 1954, you will say "No," you were not a member of the
Communist Party, but in August 1953, and any time prior to that
you refuse to answer on the grounds it might incriminate you; is
that correct?
Mr. Beberfall. That is right.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, when did you take the Pennsylvania loyalty oath
required by laAv '^
Mr. Beberfall. September 1953.
Mr. KuNziG. September 1953 ?
Mr. Beberiwll. That is right.
Mr. KuNziG. Did that have anything to do with the reason for your
having said "No'' from that time on ?
(At this point Mr. Beberfall conferred with Mr. Levitan.)
Mr. Beberfall. I decline to answer.
Mr. KuNziG. When you were at Michigan were you ever a member
of the Ralph Neaf us Club of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Beberfall. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you ever hear of the Ralph Neafus Club of the
Communist Party when you were at Michigan i
Mr. BEBi-iRFALL. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. KuNziG. AVere you ever a member of the Haldane Club,
H-a-1-d-a-n-e Club, of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Beberfall. I respectfully decline for the same reason.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you in the armed services during the war, Mr.
Beberfall^
Mr. Beberfall. Yes, I was.
Mr. KuxziG. AVhat service were you in?
Mr. Beberfall. Army.
Mr. KuNziG. In the Army ?
Mr. Beberfall. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. For how long ?
Mr. Beberfall. Three years and four months.
Mr. KuNziG. What branch of the Army ?
Mr, Beberfali.. Infantry.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you a member of the Communist F'arty when
you were a member of the Infantry of the United States Army ?
Mr. BEiiERFALL. I decline to answer upon the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you ever assigned any intelligence work of any
kind ^
(At this point Mr. Beberfall conferred with Mr. Levitan.)
Mr. BEiiERFALL. I couldu't answer that question immediately because
there was a question in my own mind.
I had an unofficial attachment with the Counterintelligence Corps.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATIOX (EDUCATION) 5799
Mr. KuNziG. You hud an unofficial attachment with the Counter-
intelligence Corps ?
Mr. BEBERr\\LT.. That is right. I was in the infantry and I was
not trained for that.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, you say that during the time you were in the
infantry you had an unofficial attachment with the C'ounterintelli-
gence Corps. Isn't it a fact that on your application for the Graduate
School of the Univei-sity of Michigan you stated that from 1942 to
1945 you were in the Armed Services of the United States and were a
member of the Counterintelligence Corps ?
Mr. Keberfall. That may be true, but on the application form the
space is so limited you can't write all that.
]\Ir. KuNziG. Well, the word "member'' is even shorter than "unoffi-
cial attachment with the Counterintelligence Corps."
Mr. Beberfall. Well, the regular members considered me a member,
but I was not trained for that.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you work at all in Counterintelligence?
Mr. Beberfall. Yes,
Mr. KuNziG. And were you a member of the Communist Party while
you were working in Counterintelligence?
Mr. Beberfall. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Velde. That is Counterintelligence of the United States Army?
Mr. Beberfall. That is right.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you ever a candidate for any office?
(At this point Mr. Beberfall conferred with Mr. Levitan.)
Mr. BEr>ERFALL. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr, KuNziG. Isn't it a fact that in April 1949 you were a candidate
for the Ann Arbor City Council for the seventh ward ?
I have a picture of you sitting with the other candidates. Do you
want to look at it ? It is exhibit 1 for identification.
(At this point Mr, Beberfall conferred with Mr, Levitan.)
Mr, Beberfall, I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Kuxzk;. I offer this in evidence as Beberfall Exhibit No. 1, Mr,
Chairman. It is a throwaway handbill for the Progressive Party
candidates, April 1949, in the Ann Arbor City Council.
Mr. Doyle, At that time had the Progressive Party been declared
subversive ?
Mr. KuNZiG. Not that I know of. There is no reason for him not to
answer that question.
Mr. Don.E. I bring that out ; I hadn't been aware that it had been
declared subversive, and I was wondering why we are questioning him
as to whether or not he was a candidate for that party if it hadn't been
declared a subversive organization. Why should we question him
about it ? I don't think
Mr, KuNziG. There has been testimony, I think many times, before
this committee, Mr, Doyle, that the Communist Party had great influ-
ence and control in the Progi'essive Party,
Mr, DoYT.E, I know, but that is no sign the Progressive Party was
communistic because the Communists had great influence over it.
Mr, KuNziG, No, but we have the right to ask.
5800 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Velde. May I say this to the gentleman from California. It
is only by asking about the Communist influence in the Progressive
Party that eventually we will be able to determine that it is a branch
of the Communist Party. It is the only way we have been able to
determine any of our subversive groups were dominated by the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Doyi.E. I know the Attorney General makes a ruling on his
investigation, but I haven't learned that it was mandatory to learn
about membership in groups which have not been declared subversive.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Doyle, it is a different type of question.
Mr. Velde. How could we declare an organization was subversive
if we didn't have evidence there was a tendency
Mr. Doyle. As you know, I have interrogated witnesses as to the
extent the Communist Party had influence on the Progressive Party
activities, but I
Mr. Velde. Well, if the gentleman from California remembers the
testimony of Mrs. Hartle
Mr. DoYX,E. I remember it very well.
Mr. Velde. It mentions the influence the Communists had in the
Progressive Party.
Mr. Doyle. And that applied to a chapter up in the Northwest.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you ever know Chuck Bisdee who was also iden-
tified here as a member of the Communist Party this morning?
Mr. Beberfall. I decline to answer that question for the same rea-
sons given before.
Mr. KuNziG. I have here a copy of the Daily Worker of New York,
Tuesday, December 28, 1948, and the headline on page 6 reads "Civil
rights plea for 12 wins more signers in U. of M. The Washtenaw
County Committee for Democratic Eights, of which University of
ISIichigan professors, Brumm and Kaplan are chairmen, announced
that 12 more prominent individuals had signed a telegram to President
Truman condemning the indictments of the 12 leaders of the Com-
munist Party," and so forth.
It adds, "Those who added their names to the list are — " and on
that is "Lester Beberfall, instructor."
Did you sign a telegram to President Truman condemning the
indictments of the 12 leaders of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Beeerfall. I decline to answer that question for the reasons
given.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence this page of the
Daily Worker as Beberfall Exhibit 2.
Mr. Velde. You don't want the whole page, just the article?
Mr, KuNziG. The excerpt from this page.
Mr, Velde. Without objection, the article will be introduced in evi-
dence at this point.
(The article above referred to on page 6 of the Daily Worker of
December 28, 1948, marked "Beberfall Exhibit No. 2" for identifica-
tion, was received in evidence as Beberfall Exhibit No. 2.)'
Mr. KuNZiG. I don't believe, Mr. Chairman, that Beberfall Exhibit
No. 1 was received in evidence. I ask that it be received at this time.
Mr. Velde. Without objection, it will be received in the record at
this point.
> Retained in committee files.
CORIMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5801
(Document entitled "Vote Progressive, Monday, April 4, 1949,"
marked "Beberfall Exhibit No. 1" for identification, was received in
evidence as Beberfall Exhibit No. 1.)^
Mr. KuNziG. I have no further questions.
Mr. Velde. Do you have further questions, Mr. Walter?
Mr. Walter. No. I was just looking at the list of people that
signed that.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Dojde?
Mr. Doyle. May I have that photostat of the gentleman as a candi-
date for the council ?
Mr. KuNziG. Yes, sir, exhibit no. 1 for identification.
Mr. Doyle. I have in my hand. Witness, this photostat which says
"Vote Progressive, Monday, April 4th, 1949."
I am looking at you in the picture, and I would say it is apparently
a picture of you. At the time were you a member of the Communist
Party, on Monday, April 4, 1949 ?
Mr. Beberfall. I decline to answer that question for the reasons
given before.
Mr. Doyle. Then probably my observations previously made were
not exactly pertinent, because we are interested in knowing the extent
to which the Communist Party was infiltrating and trying to take
over control of the Progressive Party.
Mr. Velde. Do you have anything further ?
Mr. Doyle. I assume if you were a member of the Communist Party
on that date you do know it was part of the program, the Communist
Party in some parts of the country, at least, to take over control of
the Progressive Party.
Mr. Velde. Do you have anything further of this witness?
Mr. KuNziG. Nothing.
]Mr. Velde. If not, the witness is excused.
Call your next witness.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Lloyd Barenblatt.
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give before this
subcommittee, do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Barenblatt. I do.
Mr. Velde. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OF LLOYD BAKENBLATT, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, PHILIP WITTENBEEG
Mr. KuNziG. Would you state your full name, please, sir ?
Mr. Barenblatt. My name is Lloyd Barenblatt, B-a-r-e-n-b-1-a-t-t.
Mr. KuNZiG. What is your present address, sir ?
Mr. Barenblatt. My present address is Route No. 2, Pleasant
Valley, N. Y.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Barenblatt, I see that you are accompanied by
counsel.
Would counsel please state his name and office address for the record.
Mr. Wittenberg. Philip Wittenberg, W-i-t-t-e-n-b-e-r-g, 70 West
40th Street, New York City, N. Y.
Mr. KuNziG. Thank you, sir.
1 Retained in committee files.
5802 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Barenblatt, will you give the committee a brief resume of your
educational background ?
Mr. Bakknblatt. Yes, sir. I suppose they -svant me to begin at
the high school level ?
Mr. KuNZiG. Fine.
Mr. Barenblatt. I attended Clinton High School in New York
City.
Mr. KuNziG. When did you graduate?
Mr. BAKENBLA'rr. January 11)4:0, as I recall. I then enrolled as a
student at the College of the City of New York; that was in February
1940.
I left the College of the City of New York for one semester. I
enrolled in the United States Maritime Service. Wiien there 1 was
struck with spinal meningitis. I left the Maritime Service to re-
cuperate, and went Inick to school while I was convalescing. My
classihcation was 4— F. However, as soon as I felt better 1 appeared
for voluntary induction into the United States Army for aviation
cadet training.
Mr. KuNziG. What is your present age, Mr. Barenblatt ?
Mr. Barenblatt. HI, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Have you completed your formal education ?
Mr. Barenbl.\tt. Well, I still intend to complete the requirements
for a doctor of philosophy degree. I have a bachelor's degree from
City College,
I am sorry. I didn't finish my educational background.
Mr. KuNziG. Go right ahead.
Mr. Barenblatt. It was an oversight on my part. Excuse me.
Mr. KuNziG. All right.
Mr. Baiienblatt. 1 attended the University of Iowa when I was
discharged from the x\rmy. I spent a year and a half, I believe, at
the University of Iowa.
In the sunmier of 1947 I enrolled in the University of JSIichigan
in the graduate school of studies for the purpose of working for the
Ph. D. in social psychology.
Mr. KuNziG. What period of time exactly were you at the Univer-
sity of Michigan ^
Mr. Barenblatt. I was in residence at the University of Michigan
from the sunnner of 1947 until the spring semester of 1950.
Mr. KuNZiG. Did you know Francis Crowley at that time, who
testified here this morning^
Mr. Barenblatt. Sir, I would like here to state my objections to
the power and jurisdiction of this committee to inquire into my politi-
cal beliefs, my religious beliefs, and any other personal and private
ailairs or my
Mr. KuNziG. Just a minute. I asked you a very simple question,
which I don't think has anything to do with religious beliefs, or all
the other beliefs you mentioned.
Do you know Francis Crowley?
Mr. Baricnblatt. Yes.
Mr. KuNZKj. You do know him?
Mr. KuNziG. You can hold that for a minute. I will get around
to it in a minute.
Now, did you hear Crowley testify this morning?
Mr. Barenblatt. Yes, sir.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5803
Mr. KuNzio. You heard him identify Lloyd Barenbhitt as a person
he knew to have been a member of the Communist Party ^
Mr. Barenblatt. I believe I heard him to say, I believe his words
were more in the way of saying that I was a member of the Haklane
Club. I don't recall exactly his sayin^: that I was a member of the
Connnunist Party. However, I suppose the record wnll show^ that.
Mr. KrxziG. The record shows the Haldane Club meant the Haldane
Club of the Communist Party.
Mr. Velde. And I think that was made clear in his previous
testimony.
Mr. Barenblatt. If the record so states, I don't remember, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. It does.
Now, were you a member of the Haldane Club of the Communist
Party at Michigan?
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt. At this point I respectfully would like to object
to the questions
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Velde. All right. You have the floor.
Mr. Doyle. Before the young man takes the time of the committee
to read that, whatever it is, may I just urge you to think even more
seriously than you have about whatever position you are going to
take before this committee.
I know you have competent counsel, and of course you should rely
on him, ])Ossibly, but I anticipate you might be preparing yourself
to take the position opposite to that of cooperation with the committee.
I am in no position to give you legal advice, but I know from the
record that you are an instructor in a certain very distinguished
college, by reputation, at least, and wouldn't it be a magnificent thing
if you could take the position that if you ever were a member of the
Communist Party, that you say so frankly and clean up and get out
of that embarrassing situation and then start from there? Wouldn't
that do you and the country a lot more good today
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Doyle. Or ])ut it on this basis. Wouldn't it do your country
a lot more good ?
Mr. Bareni3latt. I appreciate your concern, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I am opening the door for you, sir.
Mr, Barenblatt. I understand, sir. However, I feel that this state-
ment of objection which I am about to read might explain some things
to the members of the committee,
Mr. Doi-LE. AVell, as a young man you can never say now that we
haven't opened the door deliberately, and maybe I am embarrassed
before the committee at this point
Mr. Velde. You certainly have given him every opportunity, Mr.
Doyle, and I think he has had eveiy opportunity before to come clean.
Let me say tliis about this statement you are al)out to read.
You are familiar with the rules of this committee
Mr. Barenblatt. I believe so, sir.
Mr. Velde, The committee made them some time ago. And are
you familiar with rule 9 concerning statements bv witnesses?
(At this point Mr, Barenblatt conferred with Mr, Wittenberg,)
5804 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Velde. If not, let me read them again. [Reading :]
Any witness desiring to malie a prepared or written statement for the record
of tlie proceedinirs in executive or public sessions shall file a copy of such state-
ment with the counsel of the committee within a reasonable period of time in
advance of the hearing at which the statement is to presented.
All such statements so received which are relevant and germane to the sub-
ject of the investigation may, upon approval, at the conclusion of the testimony
of the witne.ss, by a majority vote of the committee or subcommittee members
present, be inserted in the official transcript of the proceedings.
It is my feeling, and I am sure the other members agree, that your
submitting the statement at the present time is not a reasonable time
prior to the hearing. Now
Mr. Barenblatp. May I say this-
Mr. Velde. Novt, let me ask you one question. If you answer in the
affirmative or in the negative, either one, then I believe that the com-
mittee would be very willing to let you read this statement.
Are you now a m.ember of the Communist Party ?
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt. Sir, this is an objection to the questions asked by
the committee.
Mr. Velde. I realize
Mr. Barenblatt. It is not a preliminary statement-
( At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt. And I ask for leave to read the objections.
Mr. Velde. It is assumed by the committee to be a preliminary
statement.
Now, will you answer the question if you are a member of the Com-
munist Party at the present time ?
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt. I object on the following grounds
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Chairman, he is about to read an 11-page legal
brief. This is obviously a delaying tactic.
Mr. Velde. I am not going to let him do it. The committee will
take the statement up in executive session and determine if it should
be placed in the record.
Sir. Barenblatt. But, sir, I believe I have a right to state my ob-
jections to the question. That is all I am doing.
Mr. Velde. You will be given that right if you will answer the ques-
tion in the affirmative or the negative.
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt. What is the question ?
Mr. Velde. Whether you are a member of the Communist Party at
the present time.
Mr. Barenblatt. May I confer with counsel?
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt. I object to this on the grounds that I will state and
that I have handed to the committee.
Mr. Walter. Never mind objecting. Do you decline to answer?
(At this point INIr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt. I do not decline to answer. I am objecting to the
•question.
Mr. Velde. Then will you answer?
Mr. Barenblatt'. I am objecting to the question, sir. I wish that
I might make that clear. I don't see what the trouble is about stating
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5805
my grounds for objection. I notice that the other witnesses have been
able to do so, and I wish to claim the privilege
Mr. KuNziG. The other witnesses didn't decline to answer. Do you
decline to answer?
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt. I decline to answer
Mr. Velde. Now, Mr. Witness, perhaps you are not familiar with
the procedure before a congressional committee. It is entirely differ-
ent than before a court of law. This is not a court of law. Your privi-
leges are set up in the rules of the committee, and I assume you have a
copy of the rules of the committee.
Mr. Wittenberg. I have, sir.
Mr. Velde. And we cannot have counsel putting the answers into the
^witness' mouth. You have a right to confer with your witness as far
as his constitutional rights are concerned, but you have spoken loud
€nough to show that you are trying to get the witness to read this state-
ment. Obviously
Mr. Wittenberg. Sir, that would be my advice to him.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, he had started to say, Mr. Chairman, he declines
to answer the question as to whether he is now a member of the Com-
munist Party.
Now, do you so decline on the grounds of the fifth amendment,
among other things, in this statement ?
Mr. Barenblatt. I wish to confer with my counsel, please.
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt. I do not invoke the fifth amendment in declining
to answer. I decline to answer on the grounds stated in my objections
as presented to the members of this committee, which you have not
allowed me to read.
Mr. Walter. Now, may I inform you that you haven't the right to
decline to answer by virtue of any decision of the court. It is because
of the Constitution.
Now, do you decline to answer because of the constitutional pro-
vision ?
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt. May I consult with counsel, sir.
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt. I am declining to answer on constitutional
grounds as stated in my objections.
Mr. Velde. But you do not include the fifth amendment in your
reasons in declining ; is that right ?
Mr. Barenblatt. You are correct, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Are you stating in this document which you have just
handed to us, and which we have had no time to look at at all, that the
fifth amendment is not included?
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt. Not included in my list of objections.
Mr. KuNziG. So you are declining to answer the question as to
whether you are now a member of the Communist Party, and you are
specifically not giving the fifth amendment as a reason for declining ?
Mr. Barenbl.\tt. That is correct, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. All right. Now, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully request
that the witness be directed to answer the question : Are you now a
member of the Communist Party ?
5806 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Vklde. The \vitness is directed by the Chair to answer that
question.
Mr. liARENBi^vTT. I wouhl like to consult with counsel, sir.
(At this point JNIr. Burenblutt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt. I decline to answer on the following grounds :
I, Lloyd Barenblatt, having been subpenaed before the Committee
on Un-American Activities, by subpena dated the 28th day of May
1U54
Mr. Velde. Now, you have gone far enough with the statement.
You are trying to read it into the record.
Mr. Bakenbl..\tt. JNIay I continue with my grounds
Mr. Velde. I say the statement is accepted by the connnittee and
will be considered for insertion in the record.
Now, proceed with your answer.
Mr. Barenblait^'. Ihis is not a statement, not a preliminary state-
ment. This is the grounds
Mr. Velde. Whatever you want to call it.
Mr. Barenblatt. I would like to get it into the record.
Mr. Velde. Whatever you want to call this, if it is a statement of
objections, it will be considered by the committee at a future time for
insertion into the record.
Now, will you answer the question ?
Mr. Barenblatt. May I consult with counsel ?
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt. I am objecting on these grounds, and I will not
answ^er any questions about which the list of objections is read: my
political beliefs; my religious beliefs; any other personal and private
affairs; my associational activities.
I will not answer any of those questions on the grounds of my
objections in this statement which I again respectfully request that I
be able to read at this point to get into the record the objections so that
we can proceed from that point.
Mr. Walter. We will spare you a lot of time.
I have read this, so a member of the committee is well acquainted
with what is in it.
Now, let's proceed.
Mr. Velde. I want to know this from the witness.
In refusing to answer this question upon direction by the Chair,
you are not relying upon the hfth amendment to the Constitution?
Mr. Barenblait. You are correct, sir.
Mr. Velde. All right. Proceed.
Mr. KuNziG. And at no time in this interrogation of you today, at
no time in your appearance before the House Committee on Un-
American Activities, are you relying on the fifth amendment i
Mr. Barenblatt. I can't make any statement about what might
occur in the future, sir. All I can say at this point, I have no antici-
pation now of doing so.
Mr. Doyle. At least today you are not relying on it, at this time?
Mr. Barenblatt. All I can talk about is the present
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. W^ittenberg.)
Mr. Kunzk;. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully request that since the
witness has asked to be able to put this document into the record as
his reason for not answering the question that he has been asked,
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION ( EDUCATION ) 5807
Avhich is. Are you now a member of the Communist Party, which he
was directed to answer and which he refused again to answer, I re-
spectfully request that this document be included in the record as his
reason for not answering.
jNIr. Velde. Yes. I have not had an opportunity to read the full
statement, but I am going to take the word of my colleague from
Pennsylvania and my colleague from California, and without objec-
tion, at this point the objections or statement, or whatever the witness
wants to call it, vrill be inserted into the record as Barenblatt Exhibit
No. 1.
(The document headed "Objection to Jurisdiction of the Committee
on Un-American Activities and to Questions Propounded by It,'' was
received in evidence as Barenblatt Exhibit No. 1.)
Barenblatt Exhibit No. 1
Objection to Jurisdiction of the Committee on Un-American Activities
AND TO Questions Propounded by It
1. I, Lloyd Barenblatt, having been subpenaed before the Committee on Un-
American Activities, by subpena dated the 2Sth day of May 11).')4, returnable on
the 2Sth day of .Tune l!»r)4. hereby respectfully object to the power and jurisdic-
tion of this committee to inquire into —
( a ) My political beliefs ;
( b ) My religious beliefs ;
(e) Any other personal and private affairs ;
(d) My assoeiational activities.
2. I am a private citizen engaged in work in the fields of education and research,
and in writing and speaking in connection therewith. I hold no office of public
honor or trust. I am not employed by any governmental department. I am not
under salary or grant from any governmental department.
.3. The grounds of my objection are as follows :
A. Any investigation into my political beliefs, my religious beliefs, any other
personal and private affairs, and my assoeiational activities, is an inquiry into
personal and private affairs which is beyond the powers of this committee. I
rely not upon my own opinion but upon statements contained in the opinions of
the Supreme Court of the United States. Among others, in United States v.
Rumely (345 U. S. 41, 58), the Supreme Court of the United States said in a
concurring opinion by Mr. Justice Douglas : "The power of investigation is also
limited. Inquiry into personal and private affairs is precluded."
In McGrahi v. Dauijlwrtii (273 U. S. 135), the Court said: "Neither House
is invested with 'general' power to inquire into private affairs and to compel
disclosures."'
And in Kilhourn v. Thompson (103 U. S. 168) , the Court said :
"Neither the Senate nor the House of Representatives 'possesses the general
power of making inquiry into the private affairs of the citizens'."
In West Virgina State Board of Education v. Barnctte (319 U. S. G24), the
Court, in an opinion by Mr. Justice Jackson said :
"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation it is that no
official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, national-
ism, religion or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or
act their faith therein."
It follows therefore that this committee is without power to examine into my
political, religious, assoeiational and private affairs.
B. The right to refuse to answer to any official, or indeed to anyone, with
regard to one's personal affairs is a valuable right in a democracy which ought
not lightly be ceded, or indeed ought ever be impinged upon l)y any public
official. The Congress of the United States is composed of elected officials who
have no power to intrude into the private affairs of American citizens. They
cannot by resolution increase their constitutional authority. As was said by
the Supreme Court of the United States in Jones v. Securities d Exchange
Commission (298 U. S. 1) :
5808 COMRIUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
"The citizen when interrogated about his private affairs has a right before
answering to know why the inquiry is made ; and if the purpose disclosed is not
a legitimate one, he may not be compelled to answer."
And a.^ain in M( Grain v. Dauyhertij (273 U. S. 135) : "That a witness right-
fully may refuse to answer where the bounds of the power are exceeded."
It was said by Mr. Justice Frankfurter in United States v. United Mine Workers
of America (330 U. S. 258, 307) :
"The historic phrase 'government of laws and not of men' epitomizes the dis-
tinguishing character of our political society." * * * " 'a government of laws and
not of men' was the rejection in positive terms of rule by fiat, whether by the
fiat of governmental or private power. Every act of Government may be chal-
lenged by an apiieal to law, as finally pronounced by this Court."
And again in Youngstoivn Sheet tk Tube Co. v. Sawyer (343 U. S. 579) :
"The accretion of dangerous power does not come in a day. It does come,^
however slowly, from the generative force of unchecked disregard of the re-
strictions that fence in even the most disinterested assertions of authority."
Within the meaning of these decisions I regard it as one of the duties of a citi-
zen of the United States to be vigilant against the accretion of danu'erous power.
I call to the attention of this Committee the opinion of Mr. Justice Douglas in
Yonnf/stown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer (343 U. S. 579), that even the cold war
and the emergencies said to have been created thereby "did not create power."
C. Under the first amendment to the Constitution the power of investigation
by Congress in matters involving freedom of speech and freedom of the press
is limited. There can be no investigation except for the purpose of legislation.
As was said by Mr. Justice Van Devanter in McGrain v. Dauyhterty (273 U. S.
135, 178) :
"The only legitimate object the Senate could have in ordering the investigation
was to aid it in legislating."
The Congress of the United States has no constitutional right to legislate
with regard to prior restraint on utterance in either form; and as to any books
already wi-itten or statements made, no ex post facto law can be passed deter-
mining innocence or criminality, and therefore any investigations into my writ-
ings or speech or communications is beyond the power of this committee. As was
said by Mr. Justice Douglas in United States v. Rumely (845 U. S. 41, 58) :
"Through the harassment of hearings, investigations, reports, and subpenas
Government will hold a club over speech and over the press. Congress could not
do this by law. The power of investigation is also limited. Inquiry into per-
sonal and private affairs is precluded."
D. Under our Constitution our Government is a government of limited powers^
tripartite in form, consisting of the legislative, the judicial, and the executive.
This separation is fundamental to the preservation of the rights of the people
in order that no one department may, through its power, rise to become a des-
potic arbiter. This committee through this investigation into my political, as-
sociational, religious, and private affairs trespassed upon the judicial department
and has caused a lack of balance of power which constitutes a threat to my lib-
erty as an American citizen and is an unconstitutional usurpation. This usurpa-
tion has reached the point where the Supreme Court of the United States in
United States v. Rumely (345 U. S. 41. 44), said :
" 'And so, we would have to be that "blind" court, against which Mr. Chief
Justice Taft admonished in a famous passage, that does not see what all others
can .see and understand' not to know that there is wide concern, both in and out
of Congress, over some aspects of the exercise of the Congressional power of in-
vestigation."
No place is that usurpation better seen than in the trespassing by the legisla-
ture upon the judiciary. As was said in Lichter v. United States (334 U. S. 742,
779) :
"In peace or in war it is essential that the constitution be scrupulously obeyed,
and particularly that the respective branches of the Government keep within the
powers assigned to each by the Constitution."
And again in Myers v. United States (272 U. S. 52, 116), by Mr. Justice Taft:
"If there is a principle in our Coastitution, indeed in any free Constitution
more sacred than another, it is that which separates the legislative, executive,
and judicial powers."
And again by Mr. Justice Brandeis in Myers v. United States (272 U. S. 52, 293,
71L. edieO) :
"The doctrine of the separation of powers was adopted by the Convention of
1787 not to promote efficiency but to preclude the exercise of arbitrary power..
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5809
The purpose was not to fight friction but, by means of the inevitable friction in-
cident to the distribution of the governmental powers among three departments,
to save the people from autocracy."
And again in Kilbourn v. Thompson (103 U. S. 168) :
"It is believed to be one of the chief merits of the American system of written
constitutional law that all the powers entrusted to governments, whether State or
National, are divided into the three grand "departments : the executive, the legis-
lative, and the judicial. * * * it l.s also essential to the successful working of
this system that the persons entrusted with power in any one of these branches
shall not be permitted to encroach upon the powers confided to the others but
that each shall by the law of its creation be limited to the exercise of the power
appropriate to its own department and no other."
Not only did the founders of our Republic separate the departments of
government, but they also limited the powers of each of those departments. It
is a simple statement known to every American schoolchild that our Govern-
ment consists of separate departments, that the powers of each of those depart-
metns is limited, and that all rights not granted to the Government are reserved
to the people,
To be specific. Congress has the specific power to legislate granted to it by
the Constitution. It has an implied power to investigate which, however, can be
no broader than the power to legislate. In the absence of proposed legislation
there can be no investigation, for all powers not expressly granted or necessarily
implied are reserved to the people. Neither of the tripartite departments of
our Government can claim any residual power as a basis for acting. In order
that there might be no doubt about the limitations of power and the wish not to
grant residual power the citizens of the several States insisted on the insertion
in the Bill of Rights of amendment 9 :
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be con-
strued to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
They reinfoi'ced amendment 9 by amendment 10 :
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor pro-
hibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the
people."
This Congress and the committees appointed by it can enjoy only the powers
expressly granted in the Constitution or necessarily implied therefrom. Con-
gressmen or committeemen thereof as officials of the Government do not have,
and cannot arrogate to themselves, a power to intrude into the private affairs of
the people of the United States, a power which the people reserve to themselves.
The arrogation of power may be curtailed either by an appeal to the courts,
or what is to be more hoped for, by the self-discipline of those entrusted with
authority. The possibility of petty tyranny is ever present in a democracy
unless the body of officialdom is wise and knows that self-limitation is essential
to the success of our scheme of government. As Mr. .Justice Frankfurter said in
YoungstQwn Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer (343 U. S. 579) :
"A constitutional democracy like ours is perhaps the most difficult of man's
social arrangements to manage successfully. Our scheme of society is more
dependent than any other form of government on knowledge and wisdom and
self-discipline for the achievement of its aims."
But when such self -discipline is not apparent in the actions of any governing
body then it becomes the duty of the citizen to challenge that act by an appeal
to law. It is that duty which I here feel obliged to maintain. (See United
States V. United Mine Workers of America (330 U. S. 258).)
This committee, by compelling me to leave my ordinary pursuits and to
attend before it for the purpose of testifying with regard to my political beliefs,
my religious beliefs, other personal and private affairs, and my associational
activities, is acting as a judicial indicting and accusatory power. It is intruding
into the judicial sphere and is following a practice which closely parallels the
practices which resulted in bills of attainder being prohibited by our Constitu-
tion (art. I, sec. 10).
The present practices of this committee fall within the condemnation and
prohibition of that section.
The Supreme Court said, in United States v. Lovett (328 U. S. 303, 317) :
"Those who wrote our Constitution well knew the danger inherent in special
legislative acts which take away the life, liberty, or property of particular
named i)ersons, because the Legislature thinks them guilty of conduct which
deserves punishment. They intended to safeguard the people of this country
from punishment without trial by duly constituted courts. * * ♦
5810 COMMUNIST METHODS OF IXFILTRATIOX (EDUCATIOX)
"And even the courts to which this important fuucticm was entrusted were
commanded to stay their hands until and unless certain tested safeguards were
observed. An accused in court nuist be tried by an impartial jury, has a right
to be represented by counsel, he must be clearly informed of the charge against
him, the law which he is charged wirli violating must have been passed before
he committed the act charged, he must be confronted by the witnesses against
him, he must not be compelled to incriminate himself. * * *
"Our ancestors had ample reason tu know that legislative trials and punish-
ments were too dangcnuus to liberty to exist in the nation of free men they
envisioned. And so they proscribed bills of attainder."
But a bill of attainder need not be the specific bill of attainder referred to in
the Constitution. It may be any legislative act taken in connection with known
punishments which together constitute a deprivation of civil rights. So to ask
me whether I am or have been a member of the Cinumunist Party may have dire
consequences. I might wish to defend myself by taking recourse to the protection
of the provisions contained in the Bill of Ilights or challenge the pertinency of
tl;e question to the investigation. Should I invoke the protection of the Bill of
Rights and the Constitution I thereby place my livelihood and my position in
society in a position of jeopardy. Many of our States, municipalities, educa-
tional institutions, the Federal Government itself, and even private employers,
have adopted rules of exclusion from employment for persons taking recourse
in the Bill of Bights or the Constitution.
The Supreme Court of the United States took cognizance of this condition in
1950, a time when it had not yet reached tlie full flavor of today. For in 1950,
Mr. Justice Black concurring in Joint AHti-Fasciiit Refu<tcc Com. v. ilcGrath (341
U. S. 12o. 144, 145). said: "In this day when prejudice, hate, and fear are con-
stantly invoked to justify irresponsible smears and persecution of persons even
faintly suspected of entertaining unpopular views, it may be futile to suggest
that the cause of internal security would be fostered, not hurt, by faithful ad-
herence to our constitutional guaranties of individual liberty. Nevertheless,
since prejudice manifests itself in much the same way in every age and country
and since what has happened before can happen again, it surely should not be
amiss to call attention to what has occurred when dominant governmental groups
luive been left free to give uncontrolled rein to their prejudices against unortho-
dox minorities. * * * Memories of such events were fresh in the minds of the
founders when they forbade tlie use of the bill of attainder."
And he said further : "Moreover, officially prepared and proclaimed govern-
mental blacklists possess almost every quality of bills of attainder, the use of
wliich was from the beginning forbidden to botli national and State govern-
ments. (United States Constitution, article I, sections 9, 10.)"
As was said in United States v. Lovett (328 U. S. 303, 324) cited by Mr. Justice
Black in the preceding opinion :
"Figuratively speaking all discomforting actions may be deemed punishment
because it deprives of what otherwise would be enjoyed.
"The deprivation of any rights, civil or political previously enjoyed, may be
punishment, the circumstances attending and the causes of the deprivation deter-
mining this fact."
Upon all the grounds aforesaid I object not only to the jurisdiction of this
committee, but also to the questions propounded by it. This objection is made
upon the advice of counsel as to my rights as provided for in rule VII of the
rules of procedure of this committee.
Counsel who appear for me are Philip Wittenberg and Irving Like of 70 West
40th Street, Borough of Manhattan, New York City.
Mr. Velde. Hereafter when yon decline to answer a qnestion, you
may make yonr declination, in order to save time, on the basis of the
statement of objections previously made.
Mr. KuNziG. I think in order that the record may be clear, Mr.
Chairman, the record should also show that the committee is bending
over backward in fairness to this witness in spite of his violation of
rule 9 of the committee.
He has been in possession of a copy of the rules as to how statements
should be submitted and how a leno:thy thing such as this statement
should be stibmitted for a period, rotighly, of a month.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5811
Mr. Barenblatt. May I say at this point, this is not my statement.
It is my setting forth of my objections as the question is asked me
before the committee.
I wish to comply with all the rules of this committee, and I respect
them as set forth in this hearing. I certainly don't look upon myself
as wilfully violating any rules, and I want to make it clear that this
is not a preliminary statement before the committee, but it is the state-
ment of my objections to the kinds of questions you are asking.
Mr. Vfxde. Now, in order to clarify the point made by counsel, Mr.
Barenblatt, you did receive a copy of the rules at the time you were
served with a subpena by this committee ?
Mr. Barenblatt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Velde. And when were you served with your subpena?
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt, It is about a month ago, sir; I don't remember
JNIr. Velde. Mark that "Barenblatt Exhibit No. 2."
Without objection the subpena and return thereon will be intro-
duced into evidence at this point.
(The subpena and return thereon above referred to, marked "Bar-
enblatt Exhibit No. 2" for identification, was received in evidence
as Barenblatt exhibit No. 2.)'
Mr. Velde. Now, at what time did you first give a copy of your
objections, as you call them, to this committee or any member of its
staff.
Mr. Barenblatt. May I consult?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt. In response to the question and objection thereto,
I present the committee with these objections.
Mr. Velde. When did you present them for the first time ?
Mr. Barenblatt. Well, I presented them for the record when the
question was asked me regarding my
Mr. Velde. Acquaintanceship
Mr. Barenblatt. Private political association.
INIr. Velde. I didn't get that last answer — sorry.
Mr. Barenblatt. I believe it was when a question was asked me
about my political and private associations. That is when I intended
to invoke the objections as here stated.
JNIr. Velde. But that was in the course of these hearings today ?
Mr. Barenblatt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Velde. Do you feel that that was a reasonable time to submit
it in advance to the committee or a member of its staff ?
Mr. Barenblatt. Well, sir, I believe that the proper time to enter
objections is when you object to a question being asked, so under those
considerations I really think so, sir.
Mr. Velde. In other words, you did what you believed was right in
spite of what the committee rules were, is that correct ?
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Barenblatt, No, sir ; I wouldn't put that interpretation on it at;
all.
1 Retained in committee files.
5812 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
I believed wliat I did w:vs rijiht and I had no idea of what the com-
mittee's interpretation of this was at the time I submitted the state-
ment.
Mr. KuNziG. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. BARENr.r.ATT. I must object to that question on the gi-ounds pre-
viously put into the record.
Mr.'KuNZiG. You may just say the same grounds and we will under-
stand it to mean this document which is Barenblatt Exhibit No. 1.
Mr. Barenblatt. Yes, sir ; exhibit 1, sir.
Mr. Velde. All right. Now, Mr. Witness, you are directed to an-
swer that question.
Mr. liARENBLATT. I decline to answer on the basis of the grounds
stated in exhibit 1.
' Mr. KuNziG. Now, you have said that you knew Francis Crowley.
Did you know Francis Crowley as a member of the Communist Party?
Mi\ i^AKEXKLATT. I must decline to answer that question, sir, on the
grounds as stated in my objections in exhibit 1.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, you don't have to do it. You said you must.
Do you decline to answer ?
Mr. Barenblatt. I do, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. I respectfully ask that he be directed on each of these
questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Yes. You are directed to answer the question pro-
poimded by counsel.
Mr. Barenblatt-. The same question; I object on the grounds as
previously stated in the exhibit.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you decline to answer ?
Mr. Barenblatt. I decline to answer.
Mr. KuNZiG. Were you ever a member of the Haldane Club of the
Connnunist Party while at the University of Michigan ?
Mr. Barenblatt. I decline to answer on the grounds as previously
stated.
Mr. Velde. You are directed to answer that question, IMr. Witness.
Mr. Barenblatt. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer on the basis
of the grounds as previously stated.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you a member while a student of the University
of Michigan Council of Arts, Sciences, and Professions ?
Mr. Barenblait. I again decline to answer on the basis of the ob-
jections made in exhibit 1.
Mr. Velde. You are again directed to answer that question, Mr.
Barenblatt.
Mr. Barenblatt. I must decline to answer these questions, sir, on
the basis of the grounds as previously stated.
Mr. Kunzig. Let the record show, of course, that the National
Council of Arts, Sciences, and Professions is a cited Communist-front
organization.
Now, I want to go back to one point, Mr. Barenblatt. Would you
please give the committee a brief resmne of your enq:)loyment back-
ground?
Mr. BARENBLAT'r. T lield very temporary jobs before the time of my
receiving a bacheloi-"s degree. After that I was in the Army.
On being discharged from the Army I worked for a short time for a
firm, I believe the name of it was Graphics Institute, in New York.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5813
I then enrolled in the University of Iowa and I believe the next regu-
lar employment after that was as a teaching fellow at the University
of Michigan.
Mr. KuNziG. What did you teach?
Mr. BARENBi^v-rr. I t:uight psychologies,
Mr. KuNziG. Psychology?
IVIr. Barenblatt. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuxziG. How long did you teach psychology as a teaching
fellow at the University of Michigan?
Mr. Barenblatt. Let's see, I believe it was from the fourth semester
of 1948 to the spring semester of 1950.
]\Ir. KuNziG. Would you continue, please.
Mr. Barenblatt. The fall semester of 1950 I was employed as an
instructor at Vassar College and continued there until — I believe my
contract ran until June 15 of this year at Vassar College.
I am not now employed.
Mr. KuNziG. What did you teach at Vassar College ?
Mr. Barenblatt. Psychologies.
Mr. KuNziG. Is your contract finished there ?
Mr. Barenblatt. Yes, sir; terminated.
Mr. KuNziG. So at the moment you are imemployed ?
Mr. Barenblatt. Yes, sir.
(At this point Mr. Barenblatt conferred with Mr. Wittenberg.)
Mr. Kunzig. I want to ask one thing further, just so the record can
be completely clear
Mr. Barenblatt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kunzig (continuing). And so there can be no doubt in the
written record at all.
You have not at any time this afternoon during your testimony
before this committee in any way sought to invoke or raise the fifth
amendment whatsoever up to the present moment, have you ?
Mr. Barenblatt. You are entirely correct, sir.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Walter?
Mr. Walter. No.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle?
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should show that at
this time there are pending before the United States Congress several
active bills dealing Avith the question of subversive activities, dealing
with the question of the Communist Party, dealing with the question
of the resj5onsibilitv that we have as a congressional committee under
Public Law 601.
I am sure that is the record, and I would like the record of this
liearing of this committee to especially show it
Mr. Velde. Yes, I think
Mr. DoTLE (continuing). And that this witness and these other
witnesses could help us in line with our Public La\v GOl responsibility
to have hearings with reference to recommendations for legislation
in this area under Public Law 601 in accordance therewith.
Mr. Velde. I concur with you, Mr. Doyle, and I wish to further
state that the record should show that the evidence or information con-
tained in the files of this connnittee, some of them in the nature of evi-
dence, shows clearly that the witness has information about Com-
munist activities in the United States of America, particularly while
he attended the Universitv of Michioan.
5814 COMIVIUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
That information which the witness has would be very valuable
to this committee and its work.
It is the opinion of the committee, at least the Chair, that the com-
mittee has a constitutional legal right in all ways and forms and meana
to get the information which has been requested from the witness.
If there is nothing further the witness is excused.
Do you have another witness, Mr. Counsel?
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Lucas.
Mr. Barenblatt. Thank you, sir.
Mr. KuNzKi. Mr. Jack Lucas, L-u-c-a-s; is he in the room, please?
Mr. Velde. Will the officer ask in the hall if Jack Lucas is present.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully request that this be post*
poned until tomorrow.
Mr. Velde. Without objection, it will be postponed and the com-
mittee will stand in adjournment until 10 : 30 tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon, at 4 p. m., the hearing was adjourned to Tuesday,
June 29, 1954, at 10 : 30 a. m.)
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTKATION
(Education— Part 9)
TUESDAY, JUNE 29, 1954
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met, pursuant to recess, at 10 : 35 a. m., in the caucus room of the
Old House Office Building, Hon. Harold H. Velde (chairman),
presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Harold H. Velde
(chairman), Kit Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer (appearance noted in
transcript), and Francis E. Walter.
Staff members present: Robert L. Kunzig, counsel, Donald T.
Appell, investigator, and Riley Smith, acting for the clerk.
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order.
For the purpose of this hearing, I appoint a subcommittee con-
sisting of Mr. Clardy of Michigan, Mr. Walter, of Pennsylvania, and
myself as chairman.
Counsel may proceed.
Mr. Kunzig. Jack Alexander Lucas.
TESTIMONY OF JACK ALEXANDER LUCAS
Mr. Kunzig. Would you state your full name, please?
Mr. Lucas. Jack Alexander Lucas.
Mr. Kunzig. What is your present address, Mr. Lucas?
Mr. Lucas. 349 West 113th Street, Apartment 81, New York City.
Mr. Kunzig. I see that you are not accompanied by counsel. We
have discussed this previously, you and I, and I believe you know the
rules of our committee. Rule No. Y says that at each hearing, public
or executive, every witness shall be accorded the privilege of having
counsel of his own choosing. I take it you understand this rule?
Mr. Lucas. I understand.
Mr. Kunzig. And you do not desire to have counsel sitting with you.
Is that correct ?
Mr. Lucas. I understand. That is correct. I do not have counsel.
Mr. Kunzig. Now, Mr. Lucas, when and where were you born ?
Mr. Lucas. In the small town of Neberskoof , Austria.
Mr. Clardy. Wliere is that town located with reference to Vienna
or some other large city ?
Mr. Lucas. Well, it is quite far south of Vienna. It is almost
Hungary. It is close, as close as you can get, to Hungary, in southern
Austria.
5815
5816 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Clardt. At the other end of the country ?
Mr. Lucas. No, it is the same end, but it is southeast of Vienna.
Mr. Clardt. Oh, southeast of Vienna ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
INIr. Kuxzio. Woidd you tell the connnittee under what circum-
stances you came to this country, and whether you are now a citizen?
i\Ir. Lucas. Well, I came as a refugee from Nazi occupation of
Austria. I have been a citizen since 1944.
]Mr. KuNziG. If I am correct, I believe you served in our armed
services ; is that correct ?
Mr. Lucas. I did, in the United States Seabees.
Mr. KuNZiG. In the Seabees ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. How long were you in the Seabees?
jVfr. Lucas. From October 1943 to March or April 1946.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you give the committee a brief resume of your
background, your schooling ^
Mr. Lucas. Yes. I graduated from East Lansing, Mich., High
School.
jNIr, KuNziG. "Wlien ?
Mr. Lucas. 1944, during service. I was not present at the gi-adua-
tion ; I was in service.
Mr. KuNziG. What year did you come to the United States?
Mr. Lucas. 1939.
Mr. KuNziG. And you attended high school here in this country ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. And you do have a high school diploma ?
Mr. Lucas. I do.
]Mr. KuNziG. And j^ou got it during the time you were in the service^
actually ?
INIr. Lucas. Yes. I have a bachelor's degree from the University of
Michigan. I attended at one time and another Michigan State Col-
lege, I have attended.
Mr. KuNziG. Just a minute. Tell us when you went to Michigan
State, and when you went to the University of Michigan.
Mr. Lucas. JStichigan State, for a brief period before entering the
service in 1943; then after discharge, 1946 to 1947. Then University
of Michigan, from 1947 to 1950.
Mr. KuNziG. So you were at the University of Michigan from 1947
to 1950, at Ann Arbor?
Mr. Lucas. Tliat is correct.
Mr. Walter. Mav I interrupt at this point? When did you come
to the United States"?
Mr. Lucas. 1939.
Mr. Walter. 1939?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. Walter. Were you a Communist at the time you came to the
United States?
Mr. Lucas. No, I was not. I was not even acquainted with such a
thing.
Mr. Clardy. Did you enter as a student ?
Mr. Lucas. No. I was 7 years old at that time — 14 years old.
Mr. Clardy. Bob, will you go into that ?
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5817
Mr. KuNZiG. You have testified that you came over liere in 1939,
as a boy of 13 ?
Mr. Lucas. Fourteen.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you come with your family ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. And your citizenship Avas acquired in what fashion?
Mr. Lucas. It was acquired b}^ myself doing military service.
Mr. KuNziG. During military service?
Mr. Lucas. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. What year ?
Mr. Lucas. 1944.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, when you were at the University of Michigan,
did you have occasion to know a Francis X. Crowley ?
Mr. Lucas. The name is faintly familiar. I cannot — it means
at the moment very little to me.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Crowley testified here in detail yesterday morn-
ing, Mr. Lucas, and he mentioned amongst many others a Jack Alex-
ander Lucas as someone whom he knew during the period of time
from 1947 to 1950, at the University of Michigan, as a member of
the Communist Party; I believe, specifically, as a member of the
Kalpli Neafus Club of the Communist Party.
My question to you Mr. Lucas, is, were you ever a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes, I was a member of the Ealph Neafus Club, approxi-
mately from — I can't give you the exact amount — September, October
1947, to — well, I paid my initiation dues. I paid a few monthly dues
after that, and I suppose if you would look for some final date of
resignation from the party it would be June 1948, the end of the
semester, as I did not reappear after that semester. Just 1 full
school year.
Mr. KuNziG. One?
Mr. Lucas. Just 1 full school year.
Mr. KuNziG. 1947-48?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. I take it, then, if I should ask you whether you are
a member of the Communist Party today, your answer would be "No,"
is that right ?
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. KuNziG. Yon are not a member today ?
Mr. Lucas. I am not.
Mr. KuNziG. But you were a member, say, from 1947 to 1948, while
at the University of Michigan ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes, at the university.
Mr. Walter. I believe that Crowley testified that there were
approximately 55 students at the University of Michigan who were
members of the Communist Party while he was there. Is that cor-
rect, do you know ?
Mr. Lucas. It seems a little exaggerated. It might be true.
Mr. KuNziG. Would you say it was almost true, to the best of your
recollection ?
Mr. Lucas. To the best of my recollection, it may be twice the
actual number. To the best of my recollection, I have no
5818 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Velde. You say you got out of the party in 1948 ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. Velde. The end of the first semester in 1948 ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. Vp:lde. I believe that Mr. Crowley did not leave the party
until 1950.
Mr. KuNziG. That is right.
Mr. Walter. ]\[ore than that, he was a member of three different
Communist organizations.
Mr. Velde. So he perhaps would have more occasion, or more knowl-
edge concerning the situation there at the University of Michigan
than you would ; isn't that true?
Mr. Lucas. Yes. I was not acquainted.
Mr. Clardy. When you add together the names that he gave us,
the identities that he made, to those that have been made by other
witnesses, his figure, in my opinion, is probably a little low rather
than a little high ?
Mr. Lucas. Possibly.
Mr. KuNziG. I am going to hand you, Mr. Lucas, a copy of the
Washington Post and Times Herald for Tuesday, June 29, 1954, and
on page 17 there is a picture, as it says there, of Francis Crowley.
Does that picture bring back Crowley to you? Does it refresh your
memory ?
Mr. Lucas. Well, it looks somewhat familiar. Yes, I believe I
have seen him.
Mr. Walter. It looks like somebody you knew while you were at
the university ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes ; not very good.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, tell us the circumstances as to how you as a
refugee to this country, someone who fought in our Armed Forces,
became a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Lucas. Well, the Communist Party, to my knowledge, at that
time was quite active in various activities, which induced me.
Mr. KuNziG. Such as what ?
Mr. Lucas. Activities aimed at these small but apparently im-
portant issues such as maintaining price control and being against
universal military training. I don't recall all the issues that came
up at every election, before every election, and it seemed to be at that
time working on the right side instead of on the wrong side.
Besides, there was a very important question of international rela-
tions. Quite a few people who were thinking about it, who were going
to school at the time, who had little experience in politics but who
were interested in it, who had been in the war and had no special
interest in getting into another war, they were considerably worried
about the way international relations were going.
It looked as if the hopes expressed by the United Nations, when
they were established, and the hojjes expressed generally shortly when
the war ended, that there would be no other war, didn't have much
content.
Now, it seemed that the Communist Party, along with many, many
other groups, was trying to offer a new approach, which did not mean
a new approach on the basis as we understood it, or I understood it,
on the basis of a different form of government, but a new approach
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5819
that had not been tried before very thoroughly. More than anything,
it was generally expressed in the policy in 1948, attempt to talk as
long and as seriously as possible in order to come to some agreement,
which is — I consider it quite an agreement with the program outlined
in Mr. Kennan's American Diplomacy, which makes me, to some ex-
tent, apply it even now.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Lucas, how did you gain your knowledge of what
the Communist Party stood for?
Mr. Lucas. How did I gain it ?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Mr. Lucas. Through acquaintance with some people, and I would
like to state now that I never considered myself a serious Com-
munist, and that, for example, in 1948, when the election came up,
when I was quite active in the Progressive Party
Mr. Velde. Do you mean by that that you didn't know at the time
you were a member of the Communist Party that it was a conspiracy
to overthrow all free governments of the world; is that right?
Mr. Lucas. Well, I didn't understand the Communist Party, as I
knew it, to be such a conspiracy, and from my present position now
looking back over these past few years and seeing it in that per-
spective, I still do not understand that the Communist Party to which
I belonged, or at least within the limits in which I saw it, to have been
a conspiracy aimed against the Government.
Mr. Clardy. May I inquire, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Velde. Yes. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Witness, in the Ijeginning of your statement about how
you got into the party, you said "at that time." Do you mean in the
fall of 1947 when you entered the University of Michigan ?
Mr. Lucas. Oh, I meant it quite generally, covering the war years,
that type of thinking that went back, maybe, to 1944.
Mr. Clardy. Let me put it this way : You went into the party for
the first time, did you, when you joined the Ralph Neafus Club in
Ann Arbor in the fall of 1944 ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Clardy. Well, now, apparently from the months you gave us
of September or October, you must have joined almost immediately
after you matriculated, then ; is that not correct ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes ; that is true.
Mr. Clardy. Very well. You must have had some mental prepara-
tion for the entry into the party, then, prior to that time ; is that not
also correct?
Mr. Lucas. That is correct ; yes.
Mr. Clardy, Where did you get the information and through what
process did you go that lead up to your being made ready for joining
the Ralph Neafus Club?
Mr. Lucas. Well, largely through my personal reading and then
through acquaintance with some political organizations.
Mr. Clardy. All right. That is what I was getting at. Where
were you immediately before you came to Ann Arbor?
Mr. Lucas. Michigan State College.
Mr. Clardy. At East Lansing ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
5820 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Clardy. WIkj did you associate Avith there that sold you on
these ideas tliere^
Mr. Lucas. Nobody sold nie on the ideas. 1 became acquainted — I
I'ecanie aware of" the existence of the C'onnnunist Party about the time
when 1 entered the University of Michigan. I became aware of its
effective existence in connection with being active in such grou{)s as,
what they called Progressive Citizens of America, and — what was
it — well, various oigaiiizatioiis. ])olitical grou])S with a slightly left
direction, largely composed of liberal Democrats.
Mr. CivARDY. Let's put it this way : Prior to the time that you came
to Aim Arbor in the fall of 1947, had you been associated with any in-
dividual or with any group that yon recognized as Comnninists^
Mr. Lucas. Not with any group that 1 recognized as Communist.
1 was acquainted with some persons whom I considered being Com-
munists, or close to communism, but I was not aware of the existence
of a Communist organization.
Mr. Claiidy. I see. Well, were those persons students at Michigan
State College or were they residents of the East Lansing area, or what
was the situation ?
Mr. Lucas. Well, both.
Mr. Clardy. Both?
Mr. Lucas. Both.
Mr. Clardy. Did you attend any meetings in either Lansing or East
Lansing of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lucas. No ; I did not.
Mr. Clardy. Did you ever hear the name Gregurek ?
Mr. Lucas. Could you repeat the name?
Mr. Clardy. Gregurek.
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. Clardy. You never heard of it ?
Mr. Lucas. Never heard of it.
Mr. Clardy. Did vou hear the first name Goldie in connection with
that?
Mr. Lucas. No ; I have never heard it.
Mr. Clardy. Or Frank Gregurek ?
Mr. Lucas. No. At least it meant nothing to me, sir, if I heard
of it.
Mr. Clardy. Did you attend any meetings of any kind in down-
town, or the main residential part of Lansing?
Mr. Lucas. No. I attended various legislative sessions or hearings
of the Michigan State Legislature in connection wnth — I don't recall
Avhat issues.
Mr. Clardy. You didn't attend any house meetings of groups that
were either Communist or left wing, then ?
Mr. Lucas. Oh, no, no.
Mr. Velde. Let me ask you just one question at this point.
Did anyone approach you in East Lansing or Lansing asking you
to join the Commmiit Party there ?
Mr. Lucas. No, not to join it.
Mr. Velde. All right. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. KuNZiG. Mr. Lucas, you yourself fled the tyranny of Nazism.
Did you see no tyranny in the communism which you joiniMi for
that period of time ?
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATl'ON (EDUCATION) 5821
Mr. Lucas. I will put it this way, that I joined the Communist
Party here with a certain sense of expediency ; that it was a *:;roup
more active, I would say, than any other o;roup on quite a few issues
that I believe in, and quite apart from ideological ramifications on
the question of being connected with the Soviet Union. I felt that I
was being more effective in working in connection with a group that
helpful to steer these activities than to be in the backwash of it and
just tag along.
I felt — and I was proved to be wrong by circumstances — that I
would have a voice in the direction of these activities, more voice in it
than I would otherwise have.
Mr. KuNziG. You mean you thought you would have a voice in the
activities, but when you got in you found you had no voice, is that it ?
Mr. Lucas. Well, I had a small voice.
Mr. KuNziG. You had a small voice ?
Mr. Lucas. I would say larger than if I belonged to some of the
groups on the sidelines.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, why did you leave this group after just 1 year.
Mr. Lucas. Well, because I disagreed violently with the ideological
thought control that existed in it, and I wanted to say previously
that in 1948, during the Progressive Party campaign — which, again
I repeat, I was very active and I don't regret having been active in
it — I received issues of the Militant, which is a Socialist Party work-
er's newspaper, purely of interest, which I considered versed in the
Communist Party. In fact, I brought up the question at one of the
Communist Party meetings in 1948, "Wliy should the Communist
Party be considered the party of the working people rather than some
other party ?'' There could be a dozen other parties.
Mr. KuNziG. I imagine that question caused an uproar, didn't it,
at the Communist Party meeting^ *
Mr. Lucas. Well, it was not especially liked. But it was practically
decided at that time.
Mr. KuNziG. We have had a recent experience with the other party
you just mentioned in connection with the Puq)le Stole just last week
on the west coast.
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, you said you were very active in the Progressives,
and that was at the same time, wasn't it, that you were also a member
of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lucas. Well, the Progressive Partj^ was established sometime
in the early spring of 1948.
Mr. KuNziG. So you were a member of both groups at the same
time in that period ?
Mr. Lucas. At that period ; yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Isn't it correct to say that many of the Comnmnist
group were also in the Progressive group ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. KuNziG. The same people?
Mr. Lucas. Yes. It was one of the intentions of the Comnumist
Party to push the Progressive Party program, and it was quite
satisfied with it.
Mr. KuNziG. Tell us the names of the ]:>eople whom you remember
who were Communists in the club together with you ; the Ralph Neaf us
Club.
5822 COMJSIUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Lucas. I would rather not answer that question.
Mr. Clardy. Wliat is that?
Mr. Lucas. I would rather not answer this question. I would re-
quest the courtesy not to be forced to answer.
Mr. Clardy. Well, are you invoking the protection of the fifth
amendment in refusing to answer?
Mr. Lucas. No ; I am not.
Mr. Clardy. Then, Mr, Chairman, in view of his statement, that he
is not raising the fifth amendment but saying he would prefer not to
answer, I ask that he be directed.
Mr. Velde. Well, first of all, the witness is appearing here without
counsel.
May I ask, first, Mr. Lucas, have you had advice of counsel of your
own?
Mr. Lucas. I have discussed various questions with counsel; yes;
and I decided against appearing with counsel.
Mr. Velde. Yes, I see; and you have talked with our counsel, Mr.
Kunzig, haven't you, about your testimony ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. Kunzig. May I go into detail ?
Mr. Velde. May I say this one more thing to the witness?
Mr. Kunzig. Surely.
Mr. Velde. I think it is my duty to tell you that if you admit your
own membership in the Communist Party but refuse to give us any
further information about others who were with you in the party, you
place yourself in a position where a contempt action might be brought
against you.
Mr. Lucas. I am aware of that.
Mr. Velde. You are aware of that ?
Mr. Lucas, Yes ; and I do not desire to be in contempt of the com-
mittee.
Mr, Velde. Other than that, we have had a number of witnesses
who have had the same qualms of conscience about being informers
and stool pigeons, and, frankly, it is the Communist Party that will
call you an informer and a stool pigeon ; it won't be members of the
committee; it won't be our counsel. No decent American citizen
would call you a stool pigeon; it would just be the Communist Party
and their various front groups, their organ, the New York Daily
Worker. You say now that you have quit the Communist Party and
you don't want anything further to do with it, so I implore you to
consider changing your mind and answer questions about those who
were within your group. It is very necessary that this committee
obtain that information in order for it to do its duty that it is obliged
to do.
Now, in view of the fact that you may be cited for contempt if 3'ou
don't, in view of your desire to be helpful to this committee, 1 am
wondering now if you will answer the questions put to you by counsel
and identify members that you know were Communists with you in the
Neafus Club at Michigan^
Mr. Lucas. I desire to be helpful to the connn^ttee, it is true.
Mr. Clardy. I didn't understand you.
Mr. Lucas. I desire to be helpful to the committee.
Mr. Clardy. The only way you can do it is to answer the questions.
Mr. Lucas. I do not mind to be called an informer or a stool pigeon
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5823
or anything of that sort by the Communist Party. I have considered
this thing for a long time, and I seem to be running up aga,inst a stone
walL I cannot break through it any time it comes to this question of
giving information about other people, not because I would be likely
to do these people anj^ harm
Mr. Walter. Now,^just at that point, let me interrupt you.
What consideration are they entitled to ? These people about whom
you will be asked are people who are part of a conspiracy to destroy
this Nation, and it certainly seems to me that they are entitled to no
consideration at all. They are criminal conspirators, taking their
orders from Pekin and Moscow.
JMow, why, if you are sincere and earnest in what you say, aren't
you willing to help us so that in tli,is very difficult and distasteful task
we have we can succeed in making the American people aware of what
is going on ?
Don't answer that.
Mr. Kunzig, before you go into that, I want to ask him about the
Student Commission on Communism.
Were you a member of that, the Student Commission on Commu-
nism, at the University ?
Mr. Lucas. Never heard of it.
Mr. Walter. Never heard of it. All right.
Mr. Clardy. May I inquire a moment ?
Mr, Velde. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. Do you still have relatives in Austria?
Mr. Lucas. No close relatives at all.
Mr. Clardy. Do you still have friends there?
Mr. Lucas. I know of some people there, but I have no communica-
tion with any of them.
Mr. Clardy. Don't you hear from them something about the Com-
munist oppression in that country ?
Mr. Lucas. Well, I am aware of Communist oppression in various
parts of the world. I don't know how strong it is in Austria. But
I am aware of it, certainly.
Mr. Clardy. You do know that in Austria the Communists have
become, outside of the environs of the city of Vienna, have become
pretty offensive in what they have done with the natives of that
country ?
Mr. Lucas. I have no sympathy with communism anywhere, and I
am aware of such things, yes.
Mr. Clardy. But I am asking you, since you are a native of a coun-
try that is obviously being so badly oppressed by the Communist
conspiracy at the moment, I am at a loss to understand why you will
not go all the way with this committee in our efforts to expose all of
its ramifications here so that what has happened in Austria will not
take place here. It is in my mind because I was in that country last
fall, and I don't know how the people stand what is going on tliere.
Now, how you can sit there and refuse to cooperate with your Gov-
ernment in an endeavor to prevent the thing from happening here that
has happened there is beyond me.
When we get back on the track again, won't you answer the last
question that Mr. Kunzig put to- you so that we may have the benefit
of all that you know about this conspiracy ?
5824 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Lu('A8. I Avould like to interpose here that I do not umlerstaiul
myself to be rerusiiiir to cooperate with tiiis coiniiiittee or any hrancli
of the Government.
1 would like to clarify this (piestion. I luive now been !».sked
whether 1 know any person who is now a nienihei- of this ConunimisT
conspiracy, as they call it. I have lost
Mr. Velde. Let me ask you that, now
Mr. Lucas. I have been asked to p;ive. not in a very precise way,
either — it is very difticidt in the way the question has been put, in the
first place, to prepare an answer to it. As I recall, the question was,
whom did you know to have been a member of tlie Kal]>h Neafus Clul)
durin<2: your membership
Mr. Walter. All riiiht. Now, at that ]:)oint let's just limit this
inquiry to members of that club without any connotation whatsoever.
^Ir. Lucas. Well, that is exactly Mliat I — '- —
Mr. Waltek. We will draw our own conclusions as to whether or
not they wei-e members of tlie Comnnmist Party. You just crive us
the names of the members of this club.
Mr. Lucas. But these people I knew in 1947 were members of some-
thin": that may or may not have been a conspiracy 7 years afro. I
would be jxivin^ names of people I have known 7 years ago and im-
plying by giving these names that these people were in some shady
activity or have been involved in some shady activity
Mr. KuNziG. Now, let's get this clear. First of all, it was not 1947 :
it went on into 1948.
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Secondly, I think — and members of the committee
have said many times before to other witnesses — that you cannot take
or arrogate unto yourself the decision as to wdiether or not to give
your Congress tlie names of these people.
The Supreme Court — since you have no attorney here — in 1951
in the Rogers case, the Supreme Court of the United States of America
pointed out very clearly that the fifth amendment extends to your-
self; you can refuse to testify if you feel your answer might tend to
incriminate you yourself; but there is no amendment of any kind that
lets you in any way, shape, or form refuse to answer a question prop-
erly put to you by a duly authorized committee of your Congress
because you might fear you would incriminate someone else. There
is nothing in our Constitution that says that.
Therefore, a properly authorized committee seeking to determine
the extent of Communist influence — and you don't determine it as of
what it is today or as of what these people are today without looking
back and seeing who was in it a few years ago and then having fur-
ther investigation to see whether they are in it today. Therefore, your
answers to these questions as to who was in the Kalph Neafus Club
of the Communist Party with you are vitally important, vitally im-
portant to this committee.
I therefore call upon j^ou again to please answer the question, how
many did you know
Mr. Velde. Now, what was the question again, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. KuNKiG. Would you please name the people who were in the
Ralph Neafus Club of the Communist Party with you?
Mr. Claruy. May I add something to what counsel said, Mr. Chair-
man?
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION ( EDUCATION ) 5825
Mr. Velde. Yes. Mr. Clardy.
Mr. Clardy. May I point out, witness, the testimony that we have
taken all over the country indicates that it is the so-called intellectuals,
the people who have had the advantage of colleoe and university edu-
cations, that furnish the sparkplugs for this conspiracy. It is ex-
tremely important that Ave find out the members of this group and
then trace, them down to now to discover whether they are in a position
today to influence the young minds of America in the direction that
you were influenced while you were in school. It is vitally im])ortant
that we have that.
Mr, KuNziG. May I add just one point to that, that many of these
people that you knew back in 1948, and you don't know them today,
we have information that some of these people are currently leaders
of the Communist Party. For instance, ICrnie Ellis; you knew him
very well as a Communist leader ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes, I was acquainted with Ernie Ellis.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew him as a leader of the Comnninist Party,
did you not?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. Kuxzio. All right. Today lie is a Communist Party leader in
Grand Rapids, Mich., so he is not deserving of your care, caution, and
scruples.
Mr. Lucas. I do not care to incriminate any person. It is not the
question of incriminating anyone. To me it is entirely a moral issue,
whether others may understand it or not, but it is something I can-
not do.
Mr. Clardy. Do you mean by that that you are now refusing to
answer that question ?
Mr. Lucas. I answered part of it.
Mr. KuNziG. He did answer as to one man just now.
Mr. Clardy. But beyond that you will go no further?
Mr. Lucas. Well, I will tell you that I am acquainted with Mr.
Shaffer, a member of the Connnunist Party.
Mr. KiTNzio. Shaffer. Do you remember his first name?
Mr. Lucas. Edward .
Mr. KuNziG. Edward Shaffer?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew him to be a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. He was a very active, aggressive member, was he not?
Mr. Lucas. Yes
Mr. Walter. He was one of the directors of the Wallace move-
ment in Michigan, too, wasn't he?
Mr. LiTOAS. Not very active in it. He was mostly active in the
Communist Party.
Mr. Clardy. He was active in some other groups, the LYL
Mr. Lucas. This is something after mv time.
Mr. Clardy. The A YD ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes,
Mr. KxTNzTG. AYere you active in the AYD ?
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. KuNziG. You were not. How about the Michigan Youth for
Democratic Action?
5826 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Lucas. No, I was not associated with it.
Mr. KuNziG. Well, now, let's mention some of the people who ap-
peared here yesterday. Mr. Beberfall ; did you know him to be a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lucas. No, I did not.
Mr. KuNziG. Lloyd Barenblatt?
Mr. Lucas. No, I did not.
Mr. KuNziG. EobertSilk?
Mr. Lucas. No, I did not.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Counsel, we have had a quorum call in the House,
so it will be necessary for us to recess for about 15 minutes.
We will take a recess for about 15 minutes.
(Whereupon, at 11 : 18 a. m., a recess was taken to 11 : 45 a. m.)
(Thereupon, at 11:45 a. m., the hearing was resumed pursuant to
the taking of the recess, the following committee members being
present: Representatives Harold H. Velde (chairman). Kit Clardy,
Gordon H. Scherer, and Francis E. Walter.)
Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order, please.
Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Lucas, prior to the brief recess we were dis-
cussing members of the Ralph Neafus Club of the Communist Party
at the University of Michigan, and I had asked you to name the
members of the club whom you knew to be members and, of cour:-:e,
to be members of the Communist Party. You had mentioned 1 or 2.
I think, with the chairman's permission, I will go through the list
of these people who have been identified here previously, so tlieir
names, of course, will not be mentioned for the first time by myself,
and ask you if you knew them to be members of the Communist Party.
Mr. Clardy. May I make a suggestion, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. KuNziG. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clardy. Ask him two questions ; ask him first if he knew them.
Mr. KuNziG. All right.
Did you know a Lloyd Barenblatt?
Mr. Lucas. I believe I did.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know Barenblatt to be a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Lucas. No, I did not.
Mr. KuNziG. You have already mentioned you knew Ernie Ellis
and that you knew him to be a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Did Ernie Ellis recruit you into the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Lucas. You might put it that way, yes.
Mr. KuNziG. How did he recruit you in ?
Mr. Lucas. Well, he asked me to join.
Mr. KuNziG. Y^ou mean he just up and asked you to join the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Lucas. We had a few discussions, yes.
Mr. KuNziG. And you joined them ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes, I did.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you pay dues?
Mr. Clardy. May I inquire, Mr. Chairman, right there?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5827
Mr. Clardy. Did you know tliis gentleman before you entered
scliool at Ann Arbor ?
Mr. Lucas. No, sir, I did not. I may have seen him but I didn't
know him.
Mr. Clardy, Then your acquaintance with him up to the time that
he asked you to enter the party had been very brief ?
Mr. Lucas. Well, quite brief. I must have talked to him quite a
bit during that time.
Mr. Clardy. Well, you must have been pretty easy to be persuaded,
then, if you only knew him that brief time. Was that the only in-
fluence working on jou ?
Mr. Lucas. Tlie main influence.
]Mr. Velde. He testified before he got inspiration from reading the
various pamphlets, so he was ready, ripe to join it at that time-^
weren't you ?
Mr. Lucas. I don't believe I was ever convinced about the party
alone. I joined in, but I was pretty shaky as a member all along from
the beginning.
Mr. Clardy. But you did join?
Mr. Lucas. I did join, 3'es.
Mr. Clardy. Well, why did you join it if you would have us believe
that you didn't adhere to what it stood for?
Mr. Lucas. Because I joined it as somebody might join a political
movement, or "Let's go to Washington," or some club. Everybody
joins clubs, and I did not
Mr. Clardy. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Lucas. I didn't feel that the Communist Party was anything
more than another club.
Mr. KuNziG. Let's go on with the names. George Sarver ; did you
know George Sarver?
Mr. Lucas. I think so, yes.
IMr. KuxziG. Did you know George Sarver to be a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Lucas. I am not sure about that.
Mr. KuxzTG. You are not sure
Mr. Lucas. I knew him in political activities.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know him in the Ralph Neafus Club ?
Mr. Lucas. I don't believe so.
Mr. KuxziG. Patricia Fiske Ellis; that is Mrs. Ernie Ellis. Did
vou know her ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know her, together wih her husband, to be a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lucas. Well, I assume she was.
Mr. KuKziG. Well, did you know that she was ?
Mr. Walter. Was she a student at the University of Michigan ?
Mr. Lucas. I don't think so.
Mr. Velde. Well, did you attend meetings of the Neafus Club with
her?
Mr. Lucas. Yes, she was present. Meetings were held at Ellis'
house.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, Edward H. Shaffer you have already mentioned,
haven't you ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
5828 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. KuNzio. And identified as a member of the Commimist Party.
How about Bill Carter, who at one time was chairman of the Ralph
Neafus Club, succeeding Ernie Ellis?
Mr. Lucas. Yes, I knew him.
]Mr. KuNziG. And knew him to be a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Al Milstein, M-i-1-s-t-e-i-n ; he was either treasurer
or had some other office in the Ralph Neafus Club. It may, of course,
have been at a later time.
Mr. Lucas. I knew him.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew Al Milstein ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
. Mr. WAi/noR. AVhat connections did this University of Michigan
club have with Communist organizations in other schools and colleges?
Mr. Lucas. I can't give you anything specific on that. I couldn't
give you anything specific on that. I assume it had connection with
other groups.
Mr. Walter. The point I am trying to make is this : This Commu-
nist Party club at the University of Michigan wasn't just an isolated
case. This was typical of the sort of organizations that existed in
schools throughout the United States, isn't that right ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes ; I believe it a sort of pinprick so far as the campus
goes. It is a small thing.
Mr. Clardy. It was just a local chapter in the national organiza-
tion, wasn't it ?
Mr. IjUCas. Yes, I would consider it that.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, you said you knew Al Milstein, and you Imew
Al Milstein as a member of the Communist Party ?
INIr. Lucas. He may have been.
Mr. KuNziG. Well, now, we are interested in those that you knew to
be members of the Communist Party.
Mr. Lucas. I knew him to be active in political activities.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you ever attend meetings of the Ralph Neafus
Club with him?
Mr. Lucas. I don't believe so.
Mr. KuNziG. How about Jean Fagan, F-a-g-a-n ?
Mr. Lucas. I knew her.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew her ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know her to be a member of Ralph Neafus ?
I might add all these people have been identified as members of
Ralph Neafus, Mr. Lucas.
Mr. Lucas. She may have been.
Mr. Clardy. Do you know where her home was ?
Mr. Lucas. East Lansing, Mich. ; yes.
Mr. Clardy. You knew her first, then, at East Lansing when you
wereatMSC?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Did you ever visit her home ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. You knew her parents?
Mr. Lucas. Not — well, I think I met them; I think I met lier
mother.
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5829
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know her sister, Ann Fagun, Ann Fagan
Ginger ?
Mr. LuGAS. No: I have heard of her but I didn't know her.
Mr. Claedy. Did you start to say something abont her father?
Mr. Lucas. Her father was dead.
Mr. Clardy. At the time ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Her mother is still living ; is she not ?
Mr. Lucas. I suppose so. I have not heard.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know John Houston, a law student?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know him to be a member of Ralph Neafus?
Mr. Lucas. I believe so ; yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, his wife was Betty Houston, Mrs. John Houston.
Did you know Betty Houston ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes ; I think I met her.
Mr. KuNziG. At meetings of Ralph Neafus ?
Mr. Lucas. It may have been.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know wdiether he or she were ever officers
of the Ralph Neafus Club?
Mr. Lucas. I don't recall it.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, we have the twins we had testimony about yes-
terday, Calvin Lippett and Alvin Lippett. Did you know Calvin
Lippett and Alvin Lippett?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. Claedy. Were you able to tell them apart ?
Mr. Lucas. It was difficult.
Mr. Claedy. Tliat is what the witness said yesterday.
Mr. Lucas. I knew one of them to be a great mathematician, but
Mr. Claedy. Do you know which one that was?
Mr. Lucas. No ; but I didn't know them to be members.
Mr. KuNziG. Didn't they ever once go into the club together at
the same time ?
Mr. Lucas. I did not know them to be members.
Mr. KuNziG. You did not know them to be members ?
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know them to be members of the Conununist
Party at all ?
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. Velde. Did you eA^er sit in a meeting of the Neafus Club with
these twins 2
Mr. Lucas. I don't think so.
^Ir. KuNziG. I won't ask that their names be stricken as is ordinar-
ily the case, Mr. Chairman, because they have been previously iden-
tified witli anotlier witness.
Mr. Velde. Yes. That is all right. We don't want you to testify
to anything that is not true.
Mr. KuNziG. Lee Salk, S-a-]-k; did you know Lee Salk?
Mr. Lucas. Yes ; I met him ; yes, sir.
Mr. KuxziG. Did you know him to be a member of either Ralph
Neafus or Haldane, or any Communist group?
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. KuNziG. Bernard Poll, P-o-1-1?
Mr. Lucas. I don't know him.
5830 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. KuNziG. Martin Hoffman?
Mr. Lucas. I don't Igiow him.
]\Ir. KuNziG. Norman Cazden, C-a-z-d-e-n, assistant professor of
music?
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. KuNziG. Chuck Bisdee, B-i-s-d-e-e ?
Mr. Velde. Mr. Counsel
Mv. KuNziG. Yes.
J\[r. \^ELDE. Are you asking whether he knows them?
Mr. KuNziG. I am asking first whether he knows them, and if ha
says he does not I am not even going any further,
Mr. Velde. All right. I just wanted to make it clear.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, my first question will always be whether you
knew them.
Did you know a Clnick Bisdee, B-i-s-d-e-e ?
jNIr. Lucas. I think I met him, but I don't recollect.
JNIr. KuNziG. Do you know whether he was a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. KuNZiG. You don't know ?
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know a Max Dean ?
IVIr. Lucas. Yes; I know him.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know him to be a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Lucas, No.
]Mr. Clardy. Well, did you ever attend any meetings of any kind
that Max Dean attended?
Mr. Lucas. Oh, he was quite active in the Progressive Party.
Mr. KuNZTG. Now, I think I ought to say to malte this clear to you,
Mr. Lucas, that you have admitted knowing almost every one of these
people. You have admitted being, for at least a year, active in the
Communist group, and we are expecting your answers to be true
as to the members of the Communist group, but it is very strange
that you should know them all and then as to the very ones ^'ou have
known j^our memory suffers as to whether they are members of the
party now. Of course, we are only interested in the truth as to
whether or not they were members of the party.
Mr. Lucas. Well, I was active in the Progressive Party and —
well, mostly Progressive Party activities. Young Progi'essive activi-
ties, and many of tliese people were in
Mr. KuNziG. Were in both ?
]Mr. Lucas. Yes. Now, in some cases it is difficult. I knew some
of the people, but I am not quite sure about them.
Mr. KuNziG, Did you know a Jack Geist, G-e-i-s-t?
Mr. I ucAS. Yes.
Mr. KuxZTG. Did you know Jack Geist to be a member of the
Communist Party or at au}^ of these clubs?
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you ever attend any meetings with him ?
Mr. Lucas. Progressive Party meetings, and he ran for the Pro-
gressives, too.
Mr. KuNziG. Marvin Gladstone, G-1-a-d-s-t-o-n-e?
I
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5831
Mr. Lucas. Yes ; I know him.
Mr. KuNziG. He was an officer of Ralph Neafiis. You must have
known him to be a member of Ralph Neaf us ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes; I did.
Mr. KuNziG. You did?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Plow about his wife Evelyn Gladstone ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes ; I believe so.
Mr. KuxziG. Did you know her in Ralph Neaf us wdth her husband ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes ; I did.
Mr. KuNziG. How about Jean — I don't know if I am pronouncing
this correctly — Tozer, T-o-z-e-r?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. You knew her?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know her to be a member of Ralph Neaf us?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, how about Roselva Rushton Goodman? That
is Mrs. Kenneth S. Goodman. Did you know her ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know him, Kenneth S. Goodman?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. Ku>!ziG. All right, you knew them both. Did you know
Roselva Rushton Goodman to be a member of Ralph Neaf us?
Mr. Lucas. I believe so.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know Kenneth S. Goodman, her husband, to
be a member of Ralph Neaf us ?
Mr. Lucas. I am not sure about Neafus.
Mr. KuNZiG. Or any Communist group ?
Mr. Lucas. I suppose so, but I am not sure.
Mr. KuNziG. The next name on this list is Jack Alexander Lucas,
so I won't ask you that one.
I will ask you about Jack Gore, G-o-r-e; did you know a Jack
•Gore?
Mr. Lucas. I met him, I think, once or twice.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know him at all
Mr. Lucas. There was nothing at that time.
Mr. KuNziG. He was not in the party in any way, to your
knowledge ?
Mr. Lucas. Not in Ann Arbor at that time. I met him in Detroit.
Mr. KuNziG. Do you know whether he was a leader of the Com-
munist Party amongst the youth of Michigan, whether or not he was
at Ann Arbor ?
Mr. Lucas. I know that much, that he was
Mr. KuNZTG. Known to be such?
Mr. Lucas. What that means, I don't know.
Mr. KuNziG. But of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know his wife at all, Jean Gore?
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. KuNziG. You did not know her. Lester Beberfall, who testi-
fied here yesterday ; did you know Lester Beberfall ?
5832 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
Mr. Lucas. The name sounds familiar. I think I may have met himv
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know him to have been a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. KuNziG. You didn't know him, but there is an interesting ex-
ample. He was testified about here yesterday, named as a member
of the party — of course, that happened to be in the Haldane Club —
but as an interesting example of whether or not anyone should name
names, the testimony actually came out that he was a member of the
CIC.
Mr. Velde. Counter Intelligence Corps in the Army.
Mr. KuNziG. And when asked whether he was a member of the
Communist Party at the same time he was in the Counter Intelligence
Corps he refused to answer that on the grounds of the fifth amendment.
Did you know a Freda Perez, P-e-r-e-z, Beberf all's wife?
Mr. Lucas. I think I met her, yes.
Mr. KuNziG. They weren't married at that time. That is why I
asked you under the name of Perez. Did you know her to be a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. KuNziG. Phyllis Pita, P-i-t-a?
Mr. Lucas. I think so.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know her to be a member of the Communist
Party ? She was Mrs. Edward Gerald Pita.
Mr. Lucas. I don't think so.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know her husband, Edward Gerald Pita,,
known as Ed Pita ?
Mr. Lucas, Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know him in Communist Party meetings?
Mr. Lucas. I don't think so.
Mr. KuNziG, Joan Studer, S-t-u-d-e-r?
Mr. Lucas. I met her.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know her in Ralph Neafus?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. James Terrell, T-e-r-e-1-1- ?
Mr. Lucas, Yes, I met him.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know him in Ralph Neafus ?
Mr. Lucas. No, I did not.
Mr. KuNziG. Hy Bershad, B-e-r-s-h-a-d, Hyman Abe Bershad?
Mr. Lucas. Yes, I think so.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know him in Ralph Neafus?
Mr, Lucas. No.
Mr. KuNziG. Roosevelt Ward, Jr. ; did you know him ?
Mr, Lucas, Yes, he was — during the last part of 1947.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know him as a member of Ralph Neafus?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNzio. Did you know him as a national officer of the Labor
Youth League at all ?
Mr. Lucas. No, I didn't.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know Ed or Edward Yellin, Y-e-I-l-i-n?
Mr. Lucas. Yes,
Mr, KuNziG. Did you know him as a member of Ralph Neafus ?
Mr. Lucas. I think so.
COMIVIUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5833
Mr. KuNziG. How about Ed Freeman, F-r-e-e-m-a-n ?
Mr, Lucas. I met him.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know him as a member of Ralph Neafus?
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. KuNziG. Jerry Green, G-r-e-e-n ; I believe it was Jerome Green ?
Mr, Lucas. I don't know.
Mr. KuNziG. You don't know him ?
Mr. Lucas. I may have met him but I don't recall him.
Mr. KuNziG. Mildred Faderbush, F-a-d-e-r-b-u-s-h?
Mr. Lucas. I think I met her, but I don't know anything about her.
Mr. KuNziG. Mazie Gusakoff ?
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. KuNziG. G-u-s-a-k-o-f-f.
Mr. Lucas. No.
Mr. KuNziG. Robert H. Silk ; did you know him ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes, I met him.
Mr. KuNziG. A young law student. Did you know Robert H. Silk
as a member of any of the Communist groups ?
Mr. Lucas. No, no.
Mr. KuNziG. Leon Brown; did you know him?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you know him as a member of Ralph Neafus?
Mr. Lucas. I think so.
Mr. KuNziG. Now, I don't know whether we had completed the
resume of your education. So the record may be clear, would you
complete your education for us to the present, formal education '?
Mr. Lucas. Well, after getting a bachelor's degree from the Uni-
versity of Michigan in 1950, I attended the University of Wisconsin
for a year.
Mr. Clardy. What school ?
Mr. Lucas. University of Wisconsin.
Mr. Clardy. Wisconsin ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. What was your degree from the U. of M. ?
Mr. Lucas. Bachelor of arts.
Mr. KuNziG. What did you Study at the University of Wisconsin t
Mr. Lucas. Sociology and anthropology.
Mr. KuNziG. Did you get a degree there ?
Mr. Lucas. No, I did not.
Mr. KuNziG. Is that the conclusion of your education ?
Mr. Lucas. No; I attended the New School of Social Research in
New York City.
Mr. KuNziG. Were you a student at the New School ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Wliat subjects did you study at the New School ?
Mr. Lucas. Various subjects ; mostly theology.
Mr. Clardy. What year was that ?
Mr. Lucas. 1952-53.
Mr. Clardy. And is it your testimony that at that time you were
not in any way affiliated with the Communist Party or the Communist
movement ?
Mr. Lucas. That is correct, and I would like to clear up again a
mistaken impression, that the New School for Social Research is not
5834 COMIMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
identical with the Jefferson School ^vh)(•ll is connected with the Com-
munist Party. That confusion has appeared many times.
The New School lias been quite active, even to jj^oins to the extent
of covering up a mural in its cafeteria which had a picture of Lenin
and Trotsky on them so that students would not be required to look
at the picture during their meals because it spoils the impression of
rhe mural.
Mr. Ki xziG. Now, to go back to your education ; your studying at
tJie New School, is that the end of your formal education ?
Mr. Lucas. Well, I attended two courses at Columbia University.
Mr. KuNZiG. Dayti me or nighttime courses ?
Mr. Lucas. Nighttime courses.
Mr. KuNziG. Have you had employment since you left Michigan?
Mr. Lucas. Yes, I have.
Mr. Kuxzk;. What type of employment have you had ? Just bring
it from the beginning up to the present.
Mr. Lucas. Well, I have had a few odd jobs here and there in Wis-
consin, and I spent some time in Minneapolis, a few weeks.
Mr. KuNziG. Doing what kind of work in these jobs ?
Mr. Lucas. I worked in the office of a boiler factory ; and in New
York I have been employed in bookstores.
Mr. KuNziG. In bookstores ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes, since I have lived in New York. I have been in
New York since the fall of 1951.
Mr. KuNziG. What bookstore are vou working in now ?
Mr. Lucas. Columbia Univei*sity Bookstore.
Mr. KuNziG. Columbia University Bookstore?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. KuNziG. Is that part of Columbia University?
Mr. Lucas. Yes, it is.
Mr. KuNziG. Are you an employee, then, of Columbia University?
Mr. Lucas, Yes, sir.
Mr. KuNziG. You receive your check or pay from Columbia Uni-
versity ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes, I do.
Mr. KuNziG. Mr. Chairman, I have' no further questions.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy ?
Mr. Clardy. No questions.
Mr. Velde. I have no questions, either, Mr. Lucas, but may I say
this :
You were a little bit worried about testifying about some of your
buddies or your friends in the Communist Party. We have noted
throughout our hearings all over the country during the last several
years that there are other witnesses who likewise feel this way about
testifying about their friends.
It is interesting to note in your particular case that the reasons for
your getting into the party and the reasons for your getting out of
the Communist Party are very similar to the reasons that are given
by others who have testified before this committee.
Occasionally we do find a witness who has a different, entirely dif-
ferent, reason for getting into the party than 3^ou have. In fact, there
have been, I suppose, about 15 to 20 diiferent reasons given for becom-
ing involved in the Communist conspiracy.
COMIMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5835
Now, while YOU might not consider your testimony to be important,
the committee' does because it shows the methods that the Communist
Party used to infiltrate into, in your case, the educational system of
this country, and while you might not have considered it to be a con-
spiracy at that time, if you had continued and had been an avid Com-
munist Party member you would have very shortly found that it was
a conspiracy directly connected with Moscow.
It is for that reason that we have to insist that you answer all
questions that are pertinent to the investigation we are making.
The committee does appreciate your appearance here and your
giving the answers to the questions put to you by counsel, and we feel
that you have rendered a patriotic service to your country.
Did you have something further ?
Mr. KuNziG. 1 have one more ; I thought we ought to ask this one
question since it Avas not asked in this fashion.
Are there any other names of any other people that you can think
of that were not specifically listed ofl" to you here this morning whom
you knew to be members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lucas. No, I think I can answer clearly that I do not know of
anybody else. I cannot recall anybody else.
I would also like to thank the cliairman for the good words he gave
me, and I would Hike to say that I am in complete disagreement with
the method of investigation being used by the committee, which does
not mean that I feel the committee has been unfair in any way to
me. I think it has been quite fair.
But I believe that in spite of any Communist danger that may
exist — and there undoubtedly exists some Communist danger — the
House Committee on Un-American Activities and other committees in
this field of investigation are doing more harm to the cause of de-
mocracy than good in spite of all fairness and good will there may be
in it. it is not the way to g:et a clear picture of the extent of the Com-
munist movement in the United States.
Mr. Clardy. T\niat would you suggest?
Mr. Lucas. There are accepted ways of investigating political
movements and historical
Mr. CiiARDT. May I interrupt you there?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Do you still regard the Communist Party as a political
movement ?
Mr. Lucas. To some extent, yes.
Mr. Clardy. To any extent at all, purely political?
Mr. Lucas. Yes, I believe so.
Mr. Clardy. You have witnessed what has happened in Guate-
mala, where it might be possible for the Communists to establish a
bomber base tliat could destroy all of America within a matter of
hours if they wish to do so, and you still sit there and say that it is
no business of the Congress to iuA^estigate that conspiracy and to
uncover every person that was ever connected with it ? Do you have the
audacitv to sit there and say that to us, sir.
Mr. Lucas. I believe that investigations could be conducted effi-
ciently through a board of social scientists and historians.
Mr. Clardy. You mean by people who went to the kind of schools
that you went to and joined the groups you did, that they should be
5836 COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION)
entrusted -svitli the safety of the Nation ; is that what vou are telling
US?
Mr. Lucas. I believe my experience and the experience of this type
could be quite valuable in
Mr. Clardt. Have you ever exposed a Communist?
Mr. Lucas. People who have an unbiased view of the situation.
I believe that this American Congress should feel
Mr. Clardt. Well, I want to disassociate myself at this moment
from the words that the chairman spoke a moment ago, because I think
you are utterly contemptible in the attitude you have taken toward
your Congress and your Government. I think you have demonstrated
here today you are not ideologically separated at all from the Com-
munist Party and what it stands for.
Mr. Lucas. I wish to add that I have not the slightest sympathy for
the Communist Party
Mr. Clardt. You have demonstrated to me you have the utmost
sympathy or you would not have said what you did.
Mr. Lucas. But I feel a new kind of individualism, stronger indi-
vidualism is needed, and more pride for the feeling of the glory of
the United States, which is in letting every person, to as far an extent
as is possible, do what he wishes to do, think what he wishes to think,
and change his mind about his way of living and about his way of
thinkiniz whenever he feels it is
Mr. Clardt. To let Communists loose to do what they wish, and
that is exactly why I think your attitude is contemptuous, sir, and I
disapprove of it thoroughly.
Mr. Lucas. I think it is a sign of democracy to have dangerous
movements in it
Mr. Clardt. I think j-ou have brought to this country an ideology
that is wholly foreign to our own. I am afraid you have not yet been
assimilated.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Lucas, I am not going to withdraw the remarks I
made to you previously. However, I will say this, that I recognize
that you have the right, as does every American citizen, to criticize
your Congress, to criticize the committees of the Congress, to criticize
each individual member of a committee. However, I am inclined to
agree with Mr. Clardy that what you have stated since my statement
to you leads reasonable people to believe that you haven't entirely
disassociated yourself from the Communist ideology.
As I remember your testimony, you stated that the reason, one of
the reasons, that you got out of the Communist Party was because
of the control that they exerted over your thinking.
Mr. Lucas. That is true.
Mr. Velde. Well, that is hardly in line with what you have just
stated, then, that you feel friendly toward the Communist Party, and
I think we should have the right
Mr. Lucas. I stated that I believed strongly in individualism, as is
feasible, that it is needed to the meaning of the words that we should
not associate, nobody should associate himself with any movement
that dictates to him what he should think.
Mr. Clardt. Well, don't you recognize the Communist Party as
a conspiracy dedicated to the destruction of the very freedom that
you are talking about ? Don't you see that ?
COMMUNIST METHODS OF INFILTRATION (EDUCATION) 5837
Mr. Lucas. Well, that is a question that sort of prejudges my
answer to it. It would
Mr. Clardt. Let me interrupt you.
Then you are tellins: me that you are not yet convinced that the
statement I made is lOO-percent correct, and so long as you are not
sure of that, sir, to me you are not a good American citizen.
Mr. Lucas. But not a Communist, or not an associate of the Com-
munist conspiracy, if it is such a conspiracy. It is possible to have
a third position, or a fourth or a fifth position, disagreeing with a
congressional investigation of political activity, or of conspiracy, if
they are such, and still not associate oneself with these activities.
Sir. Clardy. You said you had no complaint to make about the
manner in which we examined you ?
Mr. Lucas. I have no complaint.
Mr. Clardy. And we treated you fairly ; is that right ?
Mr. Lucas. Yes.
Mr. Clardy. Then what is it you object to about congressional
investigations if it is not to the whole idea of exploring the Com-
munist conspiracy?
Mr. Lucas. I believe the congressional investigations in such fields
of activity are not the American way of work, as I understand it.
Mr. Clardy. Then you do not understand the things that
furnish
Mr. Lucas. And if I may explain what is meant by this American
way — well, in short, it means the less government the better, and the
less the Government goes into
Mr. Clardy. If you had the Communist Party in full force here
you would have something you would dislike even more, I am sure.
That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. I have nothing further.
You have no further witnesses ?
Mr. KuNziG. No.
Mr. Velde. The committee will stand in adjournment to the call
of the Chair.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 25 p. m., the hearing was adjourned.)
INDEX
Individuals
Paga
Baldwin, Bereniece 5762, 5TG4
Barenblatt. Lloyd L 5777, 5801-5814 (testimony), 5820
Barsky, Edward K 5785
Baxter 5769
Beberfall, Freda (Mrs. Lester Beberfall ; see also Perez, Freda) 5769
Beberfall, Lester 5778, 5796-5801 (testimony), 5826, 5831
Belfrage, Cedric 5786
Bershad, Hyman Abe 5772, 5832
Bisdee, Chuck 5776, 5800, 5830
Brown, Leon : 5770, 5771, 5833
Brumm 5800
Carter, William (Bill) 5763, 5764, 5766, 5828
Cazden, Norman 5773, 5791-5796, (testimony), 5830
Crowley, Francis Xavier Thomas 5753, 5754, 5755-
5783 (testimony), 5784, 5785, 5792, 5797, 5802, 5812, 5817, 5818
Dean, Max 5776, 5830
Ellis, Ernest 5763, 5767, 5825-5828
Ellis, Patricia Fiske (Mrs. Ernest Ellis) 5767, 5827
Fasan, Jean 5766, 5828
Federbush, Mildred 5765, .5833
Forer, Joseph 5783, 5791
Freeman, Ed 5772, 5833
Geist, Jack 5777, 5830
Ginger, Ann Fagan 5829
Gladstone, Evelyn (Mrs. Marvin Gladstone) 5765,5831
Gladstone, Marvin 5764. 5830
Goodman, Kenneth 5768, 5831
Goodman, Roselva Rushton (Mrs. Kenneth Goodman) 5767, 5768, 5831
Gore, Jack 5768, 5831
Gore, Jean (Mrs. Jack Gore) 5831
Green, Jerome 5833
Gregurek, Goldie (Mrs. Frank Gregurek) 5820
Gregurek, Frank 5820
Gusakoff, Mazie 5778, 5833
Hartle, Barbara 5769, 5800
Hoffman, Martin 5777, 5830
Hood, Otis 5761
Houston, Betty (Mrs. John Houston) 5767, 5829
Houston, John 5767, 5829
Kaplan 5800
Levitan, Harry 5796
Lippett, Alvin 5767, 5829
Lippett, Calvin 5767, 5829
Lipshires, Sidney 5760
Lucas, Jack Alexander 5768, 5814, 5815-5837 (testimony)
McGee. Willie 5774
Mikstein, Al 5771. 5828
Perez Freda {see also Beberfall, Freda) 5769,5832
Pita, Edward Gerald 5773. 5832
Pita, Phvllis (Mrs. Edward Pita) 5773.5832
Poll, Bernard 5772, 5829
Salk, Lee 5771. 5829
Sarver, George 5767, 5827
Saymour, Ann 5756
ii INDEX
Page
Schirmer, Daniel Booue 5761
Shaffer, Edward 5765, 5766, 5769, 5S25, 5827
Sharpe 5769
Silk, Kobert H 5772, 5783-5791 (testiiuouy), 5826, 5833
Studer, Joan 5771, 5832
Terrell, James 5773, 5832
Tozer, Jeanne 5767, 5831
Wallace, Henry A 5760,5825
Ward, Roosevelt, Jr 5765, 5770, 5832
Wittenberg', Paiilii) 5801
iellin, Eddie 5769, 5832
Organizations
Abraham Lincoln Brigade 5763
American Labor Party 5757, 5774
American Veterans' Committee 5776
American Youth for Democracy 5769, 5786, 5825
Ann Arbor City Council 5799
Camp Unity 5775
Citizens' Committee Against the Ober Law 5794
City College of New York__ 5791, 5796, 5802
Columbia University 5755, 5756, 5761, 5834
Columbia University Bookstore 5834
Communist Party, Massachusetts, (Boston) West End group 5760,5761
Communist Party, Michigan, Haldane Club 5769,
5773-5778, 5781, 5782, 5785, 5798, 5803, 5812, 5829, 5832
Communist Party, Michigan, Kalph Neafus Club 5762-
5774, 5776, 5777, 5785, 5798, 5817, 5819, 5821, 5S22, 5824, 5826-5829,
5831, 5832, 5833.
Communist Party, Michigan, Town Club (Ann Arbor) 5775-
Communist Party, New York City, Connolly Club 5756
Cultural and Scientific Conference for World Peace 5793, 5794
Graphics Institute, New York 5812
Harvard University 5791, 5793
Independent Progressive Party 5799, 5800, 5801, 5819, 5821, 5830
Jefferson School of Social Science 5775, 5793-5795, 5834
Juilliard School of Music 5791,5792,5793
Labor Youth League 5765, 5769, 5770, 5825, 5832
Labor Youth League, Michigan 5768, 5772, 5774
Liberal Party 5757
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 5777
Mechanics Institute 5755
Michigan State College 5816, 5819, 5820
Michigan Youth for Democratic Action 5786, 5825
National Council of American-Soviet Friendship 5760,5761
National Council of Arts, Sciences, and Professions (see also University of
Michigan Chapter of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions) 5793, 5812
National Lawyers' Guild 5785,5787,5790
New School of Social Research, New York City 5833
Peabody Conservatory, Baltimore 5792
Progressive Citizens of America o820-
Socialist Party 5821
Spring City High School, Spring City, Pa o796
Student Commission on Communism, University of Michigan i_)823
Supreme Court -^nc
Texas A. and M. College 2^
United Nations 5818
United States Army, Counter Intelligence Corps 5798, 5799, 5832
United States Maritime Service 5802
United States Seabees 5816
University of Illinois 5792, .)795-
University of Iowa 5.S()2, 5813-
University of Israel 577T
INDEX "1
Page
University of Michigan 5755, 5761,
5762, 5768, 5772-5774, 5777, 5778, 5782, 5784, 5792, 5795, 5796, 5799,
5800, 5802, 5812, 5813, 5816-5820, 5826-5828, 5833.
University of Michigan Chapter of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions- 5795, 5812
University of Wisconsin 5833
Vassar College 5778, 5792, 5813
"WLIB (radio station) 5793
WNYC (radio station) _ 5793
Washtenaw Connty Committee for Democratic Rights 5800
Wayne University 5796
i'oung Commnnist League 5769
Young Commuuiest League, Michigan 5768
Young Progressives . 5786, 5795, 5830
ril!I.IC'ATI();\S
Daily Worker 5757, 5795, 5800, 5822
Masses and Mainstream 5795
Michigan Daily 5770
Militant 5821
National Guardian 5786
Purple Stole 5821
"Washington Post and Times Herald 581&
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